With Vatican Talks and Bulldozers, China Aims to Control Christianity

“By contrast, Beijing doesn’t give the spiritual leader of Tibetan Buddhists, the Dalai Lama, any say over the appointment of monks or abbots.” Apparently the author lacks knowledge on how monks or abbots get their jobs. They are not “appointed” by any of the “Living Buddhas” like Dalai as in a catholic sense, just as the Imams are not “ appointed” by al-Baghdadi.

From the Guardian September , 2014: "Hong Kong, one of the world’s most important financial hubs, has exploded into protest. Since Sunday night, the so-called “umbrella revolution” has turned the city’s gleaming central business district into a virtual conflict zone, replete with shouting mobs, police in riot gear, and clouds of tear gas. Tens of thousands of Hong Kong residents – young and old, rich and poor – have peacefully occupied major thoroughfares across the city, shuttering businesses and bringing traffic to a halt. They claim that Beijing reneigned on a agreement to grant them open elections by 2017, and demand “true universal suffrage”. 4 years on, out of a miracle, PRC 's plan was defeated by a minority in their heavily controlled HK legislature. But young adults were disenfranchised. Their elected legislators disqualified in the legislature, academics who spoke up lost their jobs, a young unemployed construction worker commited suicide on the eve of his court appearance for his protest. Police went to jail. Water cannon purchased from Germany to be used against the people, mainly the next generation, 97 % too ashamed to call themselves Chinese. Results of the deal with 'the legitimate authority'. We must pray for our enemies. And for politicians of countries in the Universal Church, if there is something they can do in their capacity or out of their conscience, perhaps they should do God's Will to help humanity and the Pope.

As a practicing Catholic, I have read the Pope's Letter to Catholics in China and the Universal Church, while Catholics believe in papal infallacy in matters of faith and morals, there are many comments in the letter that touch on political matters other than faith and morals on which the assumptions of the Pope are off. This coupled with some of the public comments made by some bishops around him on the PRC which almost bother on ignorance make the situation very worrying. One would come to agree with Cardinal Joseph Zen's assessment of the situation. This also confirms the HK experience with respect to the Sino-British Joint Declaration which unfortunately is based on lived experience in HK. As believers, there is no doubt in our mind that God's Will be done. But it would only be possible if politicians of countries in the Universal Church would cooperate with God's Will to work politically to make it possible with respect to the PRC. Because this would affect the Church in their own countries same as politically it has affected other countries in their internal matters. May all people of good faith work and pray together so that God's Will be done. If the Vatican has that kind of understanding of the PRC, then the solution would lie in politicians in the world doing their job with respect to the PRC. It is a Catholic belief that outside of there Church there's no salvaton. Perhaps the Chirch needs help from All Nations in her work for salvation.

The Vatican is making a management position to protect her communion with the Church in China under a totalitarian dictatorship that had once successfully overturned the Chinese culture or at least the good part of it. 6 million of underground Catholics and their bishops are being asked to make the sacrifice. It is not the first time they have met with challenges but this remains the most challenging as yet to date. They must be in our prayers. What is asked of them requires the martyrdom of the hearts and is very scandalous with the very limited info available to the faithful. The Church role is also one of a teaching authority. It seems that the Vatican takes the position that management and communion take precedent based on their understanding. One only hopes that after all is said and done, Catholics, especially the suffering Church of China is given an honest explanation. This is unfortunately the tragedy of being Chinese even in God's kingdom on earth. One only has to look at the deal HK people have with the PRC via the UK. One example is how the youngest ever elected man and woman legislators went to jail. And the disenfranchisement of a generation. They too will always be in the hearts of their people.

The Catholic presence in China was created like the opium that westerners forced on the Chinese. Catholicism should be treated like any other unfortunate result of addiction, with rehabilitation and measures to stop its spread.

Difficult to describe what is happening in China today. The CCP history with respect to Western religions is easy. The pre-revolution missionaries universally supported the ‘Christian’ Chiang Kai-shek and that support was tapped by The China Lobby for years to follow so Mao’s Marxian response (Opiate of the people) understandable. Religion was an enemy of Communism. Xi Jinping’s responses a continuation of those CCP concerns of control played out against a population with rising desires for finding ‘meaning’ in their rapidly changing world with Religion on the rise as is being noted by various scholars. The Party is awkwardly dealing with something it can not control, trying first to fill the void with traditional roots. The millennials are it appears most in need of answers, more so than their forebears. Xi has a problem.

The primary problem with what Christians call "the church", whether Catholic or Protestant, is that it/they is too worldly and doesn't recognize how worldly it is. Christianity--as per the Bible--is a spiritual religion, as opposed to the world's materialistic base. It is God-centered, while the world is me-centered, egoistic. It directs attention to less superficial aspects of life than what you read in the news or observe in any culture. And it is non-manipulative, loving of truth and of every other person, while the world's entire existence, it's view of reality is based upon manipulating whatever reality people agree upon, according to exclusivistic agendas. My guess is that little good can come from this bargain between the pope and the Chinese government, 2 pillars of worldly authority. Christianity grows where the powers of this world don't thrive.

Western media still do not get China. Here is the reality. Unless you are a member of the Chinese Communist Party, you will have no say in the governance of the country. You will have no power. So in a practical sense, a red cardinal should be a member of the rulling class so that the views of his followers can also be brought into the circles of decision making. In the west, separation of the church and government sounds good on paper but never succeeded in reality. This new deal with Vatican looks like a win-win.

Social engineering extended to religion—totalitarianism dressed up in its Sunday best. Its ancestor is none other than National Socialism—but with more of a human face. Hyperbole? Totalitarianism, especially under the guise of scientific technology, including social scientific technology, is on the rise, but hard to recognize, giving the impression of hyperbole. It can be seen more clearly in China perhaps, as documented in this article, but with growth spurts throughout the world, aided by the new modern communications industries. Conspiratorial? I’m old, but I remember reading of a letter from a Cardinal Wyzinsky (sp?), then head of the Roman Curia (I believe) to Hitler. It was quite an eye-opener. A good reporter could correct me.

Whatever success the Chinese Communist party has in controlling Christianity will not be repeated in controlling Islam. The battle between Islam and those dictatorships trying to keep all religion under control will likely be the epic world conflict in the middle to late 21st century.

Matthew 22:21 - Jesus said "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's and to God the things that are God's". Therein lies the rub. How does the Pope and Xi Jumping square the circle of birth control, abortion euthanasia, etc. - especially given China's history of imposing same on it's citizenry?

The Chinese communists saw themselves as living through this exact same treatment, yet became the dominant group under the tutelage of the Soviets. Yet, they now attack a huge swath of their people with the same things that were used against them. Keep doing this, communists. The world is ready for a Christian-led society in China, and human rights and democracy will soon follow as they always do. Imagine a People's Liberation Army aimed only at outside enemies instead of existing only to murder unarmed citizens of their own country! Governments going back to Emperor Nero have done their best to eradicate Christians. How'd that work out? But Christianity is persecuted more that any other religious faith now.

The fight between the Chinese government and the church is just a variation of the church's fight with other churches. As long as we have religion, we're going to have major problems. In the near future, we will program the human mind in the computer, and this will be based on a "survival" algorithm. Then, we will finally learn how we confuse the mind about what exactly is supposed to survive with our ridiculous beliefs. At that point we will begin the long trek back to reason and sanity. See RevolutionOfReason.com

Mass religions in general, and in the West Christianity in particular, have always tried to control the societies in which they became dominant. Christianity became a world religion because the Roman Empire made it the state religion and church and state waged holy war on all its rivals. Religions have been nothing but a source of persecution and war once they get involved in trying to force their beliefs on others. We can see that today in the USA as well as the Middle East, India and elsewhere. History suggests that it is far better for society to control religion than vice versa. Good luck to Qi Jinping.

China's efforts to control the Christian religion are all in vain, because in the end, they will lose.

China's government regards believers of all faiths as sheep that have gone astray from the one true path of Socialism with Chinese characteristics. Whilst making an unconvincing show of tolerance towards different faiths, the Chinese government won't actually be happy until all the stray sheep "have returned to the shepherd and overseer of their souls" (1 Peter 2:25), i.e the CCP. "If you worship other gods, the lord's anger will come against you like fire and destroy you completely, because the Lord your God tolerates no rivals". (Deuteronomy 6:15).

The Pope should be ashamed of this move. Sometimes a deal is nothing but capitulation. People have gone to prison and died because they have been taught by the church that what he has agreed to is wrong and now...it just doesn’t matter. Why...so the pope can visit China? It just seems wrong.

Someday soon, Chinese students will study the communists’ period in power from 1949- and grasp how oppressive it was. Chinese can study and worship freely once state communism evolves to something better there.

I tend to share the view of Cardinal Zen in Hong Kong. He understands China than his brothers in the Vatican. It is a pity that Vatican did not listen to him.

As a European historian, I would just like to point out that the demand of the state to control appointment of bishops is nothing new. It was the norm for medieval and early modern European monarchs to appoint bishops , and Napoleon continued the policy in his 1803 concordat with the papacy.