I live in Portland, Oregon which has one of the highest rates of unvaccinated children. There was a measles outbreak in Portland just this summer and the numbers of unvaccinated children are on the rise. You can get an exemption for your child for religious or even philosophical reasons. This lack of trust in experts, the decline of scientific literacy, and parent’s reliance on online “research” versus a doctor’s advice is a danger to society, putting innocent kids at risk. There’s a reason doctors go to school for eight years. They just might know a bit more than the average parent surfing the net. We are entering a new dark ages of ignorance, fear, and superstition.
13
Geez the Five Star Movement and their followers are crazy. I cannot believe in this day and age that people wouldn't protect their children and themselves.
Why do people always choose the conspiracy over fact? Deep State nonsense and that the medical industrial complex wants to poison your child? These are viral infections that if a child gets sick, it isn't a quickie, over-the-counter antibiotic treatment but a scary stay in a hospital to manage symptoms, but not cure, a patient. If physicians and drug companies wanted to make money, there is definitely more to be made have more patients admitted to hospitals rather than a vaccine. Do physicians and drug company CEOs vaccinate THEIR children? You bet they do!
6
It's mind numbing watching all these people (in Italy, US, etc) fighting strenuously for changes and "freedoms" that undermine them and society, whether it be vaccines, guns, climate change, civil liberties, health care, etc.
5
> Mr. Aliberti...resented the “arrogance” of scientists who presumed to understand something as complicated as the human immune system.
No credible scientist claims to understand this amazing and complex system. But every credible scientist in the field understands it better than Mr. Aliberti.
7
Disease outbreaks to follow shortly...
4
Let's try to find the silver lining:
Italy always been a hotbed of warring regional tribes--even when it became a nation, it didn't quite cohere.
Italy kept itself above collapse because it had a genuine economy (though a pitiful tax system) and none of the the warring tribes was strong enough to dominate the others. And, of course, it was subsidized by the EU.
Now, it's economy depends on Chinese investment and manufacturing, and ever-spreading gangsterism; it hates immigrants so rabidly that it's prepared to leave the EU; it has a government of moronic mini-fascists; and it wants make immunization optional.
Well, perhaps a few epidemics that kill thousands of children will bring the Italians to their senses. If not, not.
3
One needs to watch one of George Carlin's stand up routines, available on Youtube, where he comments on "Stupid people". Hilarious. So true , in this country and all around the world.
3
So, just how many children will have to sicken or die because of this idiocy? A pox on their heads!
3
Hmm? No doctor's note required?
How does one get a doctor's note in Italy, if one wants?
The kids will get sick, maybe dead or disabled - then the parents will learn.
5
My bisnonni who emigrated from rural Liguria to the US must be spinning in their graves. They came here to escape the poverty and ignorance of the past. And now it's back.
4
I like to ask Anti-vaxxers ‘have you seen a polio patient?’
They typically reply’ no’.
Then I ask, ‘do you know which countries in the world have polio cases?’
Sorry me reply correctly and ‘say Pakistan and Afghanistan.’
Then I ask’ do you know what they don’t have?’
They say ‘basic necessities’.
I say ‘ sure, but they also don’t have polio vaccines.’ (They do and people there really try to get them out, but due to stability issues there are too many people who suffer from it).
That usually gets them. Additionally, I tell them to look at FDR- one of our past presidents had polio. That was how pervasive the disease was. The only reason it’s something you have barely heard of now is due to vaccines.
I urge everyone to please convey the gravity of the importance of vaccination. If you are like me, you hate to see basic human life destroyed by the callous disregard of a few who ardently believe in misinformation. However, the way to challenge them is not via calling them dumb. Logic them out. Present cases of diseases that vaccines have all but destroyed or completely wiped out. Let’s protect our communities!
9
Please stop vilifying parents who make an independent effort to research vaccine truth, and make a conscious decision to forego the process. FACTS: Vaccination does not equal immunity (thus measles vaccinees can and do contract measles); Immunity conferred by vaccination does not equal immunity conferred by natural disease; Herd immunity is a concept which applies to immunity from natural disease. Immunity from vaccinations is limited to humoral; the local tissues which are the first line of defense remain unprotected. Thus the most likely carriers of pertussis are those adults who were vaccinated, exposed, and developed no disease, but continue to carry the organism in their respiratory tract. Consider also that vaccines contain ingredients which might be detrimental to a developing nervous system. If you ask a scientist “what is an acceptable level of aluminum to inject into a newborn?”, most would answer 0 mcg/dL
Historically, deaths and complications from childhood diseases were in steep decline prior to mass vaccinations. Biologically, we should note the ability of disease organisms to mutate when confronted with suppression. Culturally, we have the least healthy childhood population ever.
On a philosophical note, we might consider that there are systems of health and disease prevention that are less well known in this country, but nonetheless viable alternatives to our profit-driven chemically dependent system, which may be a poor choice for legal sanction.
2
As usual, the truth lies in the middle, between the two extremes. Most vaccines work and are safe, but some have turned out to be neither. The world of medicine relies on science, but both medicine and science suffer from their own orthodoxies and belief systems which, ironically, have nothing to do with science.
We are right to question, but must do so with a willingness to go where the evidence leads us, regardless of our starting position. Those who operate on the "article of faith" system, be they pro or anti vaccination, are extremists who contribute nothing more than a reminder of why zealots of any stripe are dangerous.
1
@KathyW
What everyone doesn't accept is that science (and medicine) is not based on axiomas like mathematics, but on statistics.
If I examine as neurologist a patient showing some signs and symptoms, my diagnosis is based on searching the most statistically closer disease showing those signs. I give the patient a treatment and this is not done only to alleviate his symptoms, but it is also done to test if my hypothesis is correct (i.e. it is possible that the less plausible diagnosis is true, and I should always take in my mind this possibility).
Measles is almost always not dangerous. But it is possible in some cases that and encephalitis develops. And in this case it is always extremely dangerous.
So your problem is not to believe or not in orthodoxies: your problem is to evaluate pros vs cons. It's a your problem. Don't discharge your mind by accusing science. We gave you our opinion.
Moreover, in case of vaccination, the second problem is that you are responsible not only for yourself but also for people around you who has the same your rights to be in safe health (this is indeed a constitutional principle in Italy).
So you have a second problem: you should evaluate pros and cons of your decision with respect other people in your social group.
And again this is a your decision. Not a scientist decision. We already gave you material to decide.
So in conclusion, if you want to do by yourself, it should also be acceptable, if you accept also to be responsible for this.
1
The link between autism and vaccines was a result of an unethical and faked study of a few children with autism in the UK. And that sometime they had the mumps, measles and rubella combined vaccine (MMR). The doctor involved had his license taken away. He now is making his living as an anti-vaxxer in the US.
What's not well known is that the doctor, at the time, wasn't really so anti-vax. The evidence is that Wakefield wanted to push separate vaccines for each part of the MMR, although how that would help I don't know. I believe he was trying to get a patent for a measles only vaccine. Wakefield when getting permission for his study neglected to mention that he was getting a huge fee from lawyers trying to get compensation for vaccine issues.
A number of studies have looked at huge numbers of children and not found any link. The huge numbers are needed to allow any tiny correlation to be seen.
4
I was just wondering how the US checks immigrants (legal and illegal) when they enter the country.
5
@Majortrout Vaccines are not obligatory in the US. At least in Michigan you can 'opt out' for religious or philosophical reasons, and medical ones of course, so there is obviously no federal obligation. Plus, let's face it, expensive healthcare is not the best way of preventing contagious diseases.
During pre-immigration medical exams, those seeking residency here must show records of immunization or be (re)immunized.
This is not the case for tourists, who don’t need the full range, though physicians try to get the right boosters in, and those not scared off by non-science get the., I got a few last time I went out of country.
The most severe medical problem for most tourists is, well, “tourista” which afflicts both US residents heading anywhere and others heading here.
After you get a certain number of miles from home, you’ll find your intestinal flora and the local intestinal flora have evolved differently (remember, with a “generation “ lasting 2-3 days, bacteria evolve more than 500 times faster than we do - and they “swap spit” - chunks of different code - most mutants die but the ones that don’t are just different enough to send most of us running for the Imodium when we forget to drink bottled water or brewed beverages. (beer at least.)
And it has nothing to do with sanitation, or the lack of it, in most cases. Your body recognizes “your “ microbes, not “their” microbes.
L
Those who don’t will mainly just have to keep on rehydrating and eating.
What the anti-vacceners are doing is setting themselves, fellow believers, and their kids up for deadly threats, and with rubella, deformed kids or grandkids.
I consider it child abuse based on ignorance, and many refuse to accept easily learned facts. Facebook wins again. Don’t seek truth there.
1
@Marie However, vaccines ARE mandatory for an immigrant visa. My husband is a green card holder and before he could be approved he needed a physical from an approved doctor and proof of vaccination. Since he was born before the United Kingdom introduced the MMR, he had to get it.
1
Donald Trump, too, stirs the pot of misinformation with innuendos that vaccines cause autism.
He, more than most, should be aware that autism may actually be related to the age of the father at conception--that is, aged sperm.
11
Let's examine this.
We can call the followers of the anti-vax movement "ignorant" but in reality, it's good to question and seek out information. They are right to be concerned. Pharmaceutical companies release products that cause harm and death and then still keep the product on the market. Some doctors don't exactly have our best interests in mind when they dispense opioids like skittles, right? Those who don't question, don't have the formal education of a scientist to interpret data, and blindly follow the herd are ignorant too, but just happen to be on the "right" side of the argument.
The prevalent attitude is that children will contract diseases and put everyone else at risk, and therefore deserve what is coming to them.
This is a symptom of lack of community and connection to each other in the REAL world. When we genuinely care about each other, we hold hands, and collectively help each other make the best decisions we can. Our doctors are members of our communities and we need to be able to trust their authority. Some of them aren't a part of the invisible elite, they are among or fellow humans who care about us. When we work to improve our relationship with each other, and admit that we need to be able to rely on the info of the professionals who have decades of experience, we can prevent misinformation from causing harm and disaster.
8
@Kitty
What beats me is the fact, that unethical behavior of drug companies in other areas of business is cited as a reason not to vaccinate children. If there is one ethical branch of the industry, it is the production and distribution of vaccines which is the least profitable part of the companies. We older adult, who grew up before the advent of many newer vaccines, have still some vivid memories of the panic among our mothers when another wave of measles, scarlet fever, polio, mumps or diphtheria arrived. Let's not forget, child hood infectious diseases were the main cause of child mortality up until about 1960 even in advanced western nations. Each one of my contemporaries had at least one acquaintance suffering life long health problems from the consequences of of one of the above mentioned diseases. When polio vaccines finally arrived, mothers practically stormed doctor's offices!
I find the behavior of mothers, who themselves are probably alive and kicking due to being fully vaccinated, irresponsible in the least.
But I guess, vaccines are the victim of their own success since hardly anybody has seen the diseases first hand anymore.
9
So much for the idea we had to bring our kids on a vacation to Italy.
Don't these people realize that they are not only killing their own children, they are killing their tourist economy?
California also gave a lot of rope to the "vaccine activists" until there was a Measles outbreak at Disneyland, tourists stopped coming, and we found out who *really* runs the Golden State. No more "religious exemptions" written on a napkin.
19
The stubborn refusal of anti Vaxxers to give up on the lie that vaccinations cause autism is not only dangerous, it’s incredibly self defeating. By insisting that vaccines cause autism, a theory which has been thoroughly debunked, less attention and research may have gone into finding the real cause. It astounds me that so many of these people are on,the left and probably are outraged at the people who claim climate change is a hoax. Yet on this issue they are just as bad. Perhaps if all these anti vaxxers demanded funding go into finding the real cause, something positive could happen instead of jeopardizing their children’s health. I’m curious how these antivaxxers explain what happened when one of their children get autism.
17
@Miriam
Def not only on left - the ones i know are GOPers (and relatives). Mom still talks about kids she knew in iron lung - and how terrified everyone was of getting polio before the vaccine was discovered.
1
This is why it is not funny or cute when leaders start dealing in "alternative facts" and "truthful hyperbole."
Minimizing the spread dangerous absurdities should not be a "liberal" talking point, but a mutually agreed upon societal policy. Ironically, although I would have many disagreements with Ayn Rand, I happen to think she put it best in Atlas Shrugged where the protagonist notes that "reality is the court of final appeal."
Everyone has the right to believe what they wish, but they should do so with the knowledge that their subjective beliefs are wholly irrelevant to the universe at large. If enough people in a given location choose not to vaccinate, there will be a result one way or another. I don't say "consequences," because that implies punishment, which is not the appropriate term. Stop vaccinating for a given disease and observe the rising rate of outbreaks within the population. Deaths will rise in proportion with outbreaks depending on fairly well-documented factors (children are generally more vulnerable, for instance).
If that sounds overly critical of the deeply-held beliefs of others, know that I am a warm and fuzzy blanket of open-mindedness compared to, say, tuberculosis, pneumonia or certain kinds of influenza.
4
@Matt I agree with your points here, although I have a slight quibble with the Ayn Rand reference. Rand seems to have claimed the power of "reality," when she meant not reality but her own deeply held beliefs. Sure, her phrasing sounds apt, but does she really believe the mere words as you and I might believe them? One test might be to look around and wonder why so many self-professed devotees of Rand are currently so prone to believing the craziest of things imaginable.
On the specific issue of this move by the current Italian government, I suppose the more appropriate author to reference might be Swift. Surely, there must be some modern proposer somewhere crafting a satire of this law, seeing in it the ideal method to ensure that the lunacy of the 5 Star/League mentality is not propagated to future generations.
Unlike you, Matt, I have little difficulty wishing to sound overly critical of the deeply-held beliefs of others when those beliefs will lead to the pain, suffering, and death of sane people's children, other adults, and their own children, who likely wouldn't give one breath for their deranged parents' twisted sense of freedom.
4
How many Italian children are going to have to die so that this madness is reversed? I'm a New Yorker who grew up in Milan. Unfortunately, based on my knowledge of Italian culture, probably hundreds of thousands. Then again, Italy might have a new government, or two, within the next six months.
23
We have the ability to eradicate smallpox, and perhaps polio and Guinea-worm disease. Stupid is another matter altogether. It seems that no matter what we try, like malaria, the lowest 30 percent in the bell curve will find another way to damage all of us. They are a greater danger to humanity than nuclear weapons or climate change.
H.G. Wells was right, but the story needs updating. Pedro, Correa, and the others were offered surgery that would give them sight, but they refused, preferring to stay blind.
http://www.online-literature.com/wellshg/3/
24
When the New World was discovered there were thousands of Indians to greet them. When they returned a few years later the land was abandoned and the Indians gone. What happened? Illnesses cleared the land like Roundup kills weeds making Italy ready for the next crop.
15
@John Agreed. Infectious diseases killed many more Native Americans than bullets ever did.
3
If I were the cynical type, I might be inclined to think that this kind of 'confusion' was the result of a manufactured attempt to destroy herd immunity, in an extraordinarily perverse move to cull large swaths of the world's population.
Cynicism is realism.
10
Nicely put, Avenue Be: "Eager to be ignorant"!
I'm a public health nurse in a small California county. Had a mom in my vaccine clinic recently whose preteen kid was way behind on all shots, including school-required vaccinations. She refused all but one, even after I explained that the school would exclude her child without evidence of the required vaccinations.
One of her arguments was that the facts (in this case, vaccine recommendations) keep changing so they can't be trusted. I pointed out that scientific evidence showed that younger children's immune systems responded more strongly to human papillomavirus (HPV) vaccine those of older kids--with the result that younger kids need fewer HPV vaccine doses. Facts -> reassessment -> change in recommendation. And a change that this mom could theoretically get behind. Wouldn't she want her kid to need fewer shots if the facts dictated that? She had a brief moment of surprise on her face but wouldn't budge. She knew best.
In 3.5 years of vaccine practice I've only had a handful of anti-vaxers among a couple of thousand clients, so things could be worse...
Willful ignorance and disregard for evidence still baffle me.
44
The world is loosing its mind truly has History not taught us anything, oh wait students today are to busy just learning reading and math.
Scientist have scientific proof the climate is changing, but why believe them.
Economist say social inequity will hurt the people and start another recession.
Politicians say Unions are bad, but workers have lost power all over the world
Physicians ha why would we listen to Doctors they don't know what they are talking about
Fascism come from those that do not read, and racism from those who do not travel.
40
So much for the information age.
38
People who don't vaccinate their children are hopelessly stupid.
On the other hand, overpopulation is a huge problem for the planet.
So I guess I should be happy that some people are willing to sacrifice their children for the planet's health.
However, if I were a physician, I would remove to work with patients who are not vaccinated.
33
People who don't have their kids vaccinated are not necessarily stupid. They may be ignorant of how vacinations work. It's also possible that people are confused by intentional misinformation.
3
@Jay David There are physicians in Marin county California that don't allow unvaccinated children in their practice. At one of the richest enclaves in the US , home to highly educated folk, the vaccination tate was below 70%. California recently passed a law denying all exceptions except certain health conditions in which vaccines are contra indicated.
25
It is sad how eager people are to be ignorant. Of course children will die from these decisions, and their parents will blame the "arrogant" doctors who can't do anything to help.
I guess tourism to Italy will drop off, too. The people who fall for this line of reasoning won't want to put their lives into the hands of "arrogant" pilots who think they are the only ones who can fly jet aircraft.
42
Only the non-vaccinated tourist need worry about visiting Italy...
4
I hear you.
I feel the same way about my home country, the USA.
Italy is now ruled by a "Trump."
36
... or by a Kennedy?
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-robert-f-kennedy-jr-disto...
There goes tourism. So glad the right wing Italian anti-establishment politicians are exposing the elderly, babies, and the rest of us to diseases or bringing those back to our own population with the U.S.'s exorbitant healthcare costs.
25
The idea that only unvaccinated children will bear the costs of their parents resistance to best medical practices is wrong.
Once a measles outbreak occurs even vaccinated children are susceptible, at significantly lower rates it's true, but anti vacc is just another sign of the effects of uncritical thinking.
How many of these parents would choose not to buckle their children into a car seat before a trip. Perhaps Italian politicians should encourage the same freedoms.
35
Actually, these ARE just people who do not themselves buckle up or use correctly childseats. They know better, after all.
5
This is part of a plan they can have measles parties, but what will happen when all those unvaccinated kids meet the rest of the unvaccinated
5
Along with the rise of the radical right, ignorance rides its coattails.
59
Actually, in the US most of the anti-vaxers are left-wingers.
12
I wonder if these parents children will forgive them if they end up with some of these diseases which are easily preventable. I wonder if they will be able to forgive themselves if they lose a precious child to whooping cough, measles, polio etc.
72
it will be the doctors' fault. They taught themselves these are easily curable, not dangerous diseases
6
@Marcello Vitale: Excuse me? Doctors believe that measles, polio, smallpox are not dangerous? In what universe?
As it often happens when reading an article about my home country I feel nothing but shame. It's hard to even list the amount of utter stupidity spouted by these politicians, 5 star movement, lega, berlusconi, long list of some of the lowest kind of human being there are. Needless to say the solution is one, and only one, mandatory vaccinations, jail for any parent or doctor that refuses.
38
@Sky Don't feel bad. We have a similar problem in the US.
14
What happens when the spike of autism hits the children who are now forced to be vaccinated. We can’t say that vaccines are not the cause of autism if we don’t know what is. We don’t know what causes autism so saying vaccines don’t is automatically making it harder to find the real harms and effects of them. In our society we are hard wired to believe everything we are told without the research and without the first had experiences. Some of these parents who are not vaccinating their kids is because one of them was vaccine harmed and now they can’t risk hurting their child to please the people who don’t believe them or put in the research to stop it from happening as often as it does. Parents are the most critical about watching what happens with their child and putting all the preservatives that are in vaccines straight into their child’s blood it is alarming to them. Take a minute to think from the parents shoes before saying they are ignorant for not vaccinating because most of them have done more research then parents who blindly vaccinate.
4
@Lilian Hermann: The parents have done more research than the research scientists? Where exactly have they done this? Anti-vax websites? Other internet sources? "Vaccine harmed"? What exactly is that? How do you connect a problem with a vaccination when it cannot be demonstrated scientifically that there's a connection? Anecdotal references are not proof of anything.
3
To the extent that accurate data are available, it will be interesting to see what happens to the rates of measles, mumps, rubella, chickenpox, whooping cough, diphtheria, otitis media and other childhood disease over the coming years in Italy. A return to medieval times may seem appealing to some, but for most of us in the civilized world, it's nothing short of idiocy. It's a shame that children are too often the victims of their parents ignorance. It's also going to be interesting to see what happens to tourism rates as communicable diseases gradually spread throughout Italy.
74
All of a sudden the nonsensical opinions proffered by anti-establishment types, who are themselves vaccinated, are starting to prevail. Their non-vaccinated kids will pay the price.
49
How soon we forget the misery of diseases like measles or polio. It’s so unfortunate that suffering children will again remind us of their horror. Be sure your vaccinations are up to date prior to any trip to Italy
70
Well this means one thing: an increase in things like measles and polio, and a drop in tourism.
40
That's funny!
You think tourists actually notice things like disease who choosing a country to visit!
2
I travel all the time and I do. Lots of places to go nowadays - travelers have options. If France and Spain vaccinate and Italy doesn't, plenty of folks might consider that. Particularly vulnerable populations like the elderly - who now represent a significant portion of tourists. Zika sure impacted tourism.
22
@Mike
well, presumably the American tourists have received their vaccines, so they shouldn't be concerned with catching anything.
1