If you want to eliminate almost all abortions, give women birth control and sex education to all.
It's not that difficult.
But then, Republicans would stop getting much of the evangelical vote.
And you can bet, almost all those against abortion use birth control.
27
Such wonderful news: the non-religious and religious Trump supporters only have a common level of bigotry and hatred for Muslims.
While Trump talks about Muslim Ban and travel ban from Muslim countries (the travel ban is against Muslim countries - Syria, Iran, Yemen, Libya, Somalia - that are responsible for literally ZERO terrorist deaths on US soil, while the Muslim countries - Saudi Arabia, UAE, Pakistan, Egypt, Afghanistan, Jordan, Lebanon - that have citizens who are responsible for thousands of terrorist deaths on US soil are exempt), reducing the number of Muslim refugees (who are responsible for ZERO terrorist deaths) admitted to US, Islam hates us, fighting Radical Islam, the reality is that Trump supports the branch of Islam most responsible for most GLOBAL (nor regional) terrorist deaths including 9/11 and the ideological foundation for Al Qaeda and ISIS - Saudi Wahhabism.
Additionally, Douthat fails to mention the LGBTQ bigotry and hatred from the religious Trump supporters.
Finally the unwavering Evangelical support for Trump is also based on support for Israel, which is based on Jews controlling Jerusalem/Israel so Jesus can return, Rapture, kill Anti-Christ, countless death and destruction, 1/3 of all Jews become Christians and 2/3 die - a deeply anti-Semitic “love” for Israel.
20
Religious freedom.
My religion calls for human sacrifice.
I am free to believe that.
But your First Amendment rights don't give you the right to do something wrong.
5
This is kinda off topic, but leaving the parking lot after church last Sunday, I passed by a parked car with a Trump, Make America Great Again sticker plastered on the rear window.
Now by the Grace of God my granddaughter was in the back seat, so couldn't really say what was on my mind.
Now I'm a bleeding heart liberal who just likes to go to church. But being left of left, doesn't mean I'm some softy, served in the military, worked in the construction business for 35 years, married to a beautiful woman for 54 years, with 3 sons, all married, and grandchildren. And everyone a Democrat.
Any churchgoer who voted for Trump is either delusional or the light was on dim when they pulled the lever. There's no excuse next time around.
33
We needed a survey to understand this?
5
Give us a break Ross. Trump is more Christian than Pope Francis who protects homosexual predators and obviously more Christian than most abortion supporting Democrats. Trump's Christianity is expressed in his patriotic posture of making America great again by means of economic nationalism. Trump is a new Constantine using traditional Christian values---recognition of a power greater than ourselves-- to promote his agenda. This is what a great leader does. Trumps hidden motto is, like Constantine, "by the Cross I will conquer".
3
In case this article would lead you to think that the church is leading this openness to diversity seen in the survey, don't forget that the president of the Baptist (SBC) Seminary in Atlanta publicly announced this week that the seminary would buy no more supplies form Nike because of their advertisement featuring Kaepernick.
How is that for training your future pastors to be on the side of life, on the side of racial equality, on the side of controlling the abuses of the police? Anybody afraid this president will lose his job over this, or that good christians with stop going to his seminary?
22
Not that I understand the religious mind---which has that strange mix of forgiveness and judgment---but, watching my few evangelical friends justify Trump's sheer moral grotesqueness always loses me in their labyrinth of justifications---
28
The ends justify the means cannot be credibly peddled as a religious principle by any religion worth following, especially when it turns out that the anachronistic ends are as evil as the means.
12
When discussing so called religious liberty the right might be more honest, if not credible, to specify by that they mean conservative Christian religious liberty.
8
I have some serious concerns about this article: first the writer is often an apologist for christianity, second, the CATO institute has a vested interest in the populist agenda of Trump, so they will support a more benign view of his supporters.
8
This column is based on a highly questionable premise—that people who call themselves Christians but don’t frequently attend church are “secular.” Ross Douthat offers no justification for using this term to describe the more Trumpian, racist faction of American Christians.
I think he does so because there’s something he doesn’t want to admit. Churchgoing Republicans, who are more racially tolerant and more accepting of multiculturalism and globalization, aren’t less secular than other Christians. They’re more liberal.
14
Trumpsters are not conservative. Conservatism has noting to do with intolerance. They call themselves conservatives but their policies are selfish, racist and at the expense of the majority, The kindest you can call them is fearful. But their fear drives to destruction.
15
For pity’s sake.
Frequency of church going is one self reported variable.
But go on and legislate the future based on that.
6
Actually Mr. Douthat, I would be interested in how you would get poor people educated and working and paying taxes and reducing poverty.
How you would give all Americans the education your children get.
I would be interested in how you stop unwanted pregnancies.
22
People lie to pollsters about church attendance. Less than 20% of all Americans attend weekly services. While some keep trying to make this matter in politics and society, religiosity is an over-hyped feature in American lives.
https://churchleaders.com/pastors/pastor-articles/139575-7-startling-fac...
5
So, let's see if I can this right- religious "good," secular "bad." As in those non-church going Trump supporters.
This must be a Ross Douthat column, where all evils are traceable to that stubborn (and growing) set of the population which does not look to 2,000-year old hearsay to address today's issues.
As a life-long non-Christian, my favorite quote on the complete disconnect between professed piety and moral behavior is from Abraham Lincoln: "I care not much for a man's religion whose dog and cat are not the better for it."
As for the supposed relevancy of Christianity to American political life, how about some "original intent" from our founders:
“The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.”
John Adams
"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus by the Supreme Being in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter. "
Thomas Jefferson
“[N]o religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.”
US Constitution
"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."
James Madison
Sorry, Ross.
45
Sign a deal with the devil; forfeit your soul.
If one is to consider oneself a Christian, then one must ask, "What would Christ do in this situation?" The answer, in most cases, is exactly the opposite of what Donald J. Trump has and will do.
15
Did the study not look at attitudes toward women, or did Mr. Douthat choose to omit that from the discussion?
10
(1) The Democrats are a far more secular party than the GOP and are far less hostile when it comes to race & immigration issues
(2) Africans Americans & Hispanics report much higher levels of religiosity than Whites and are both heavily left-leaning.
It might be that secular Republicans are more racist than religious Republicans but there is much more to this picture than Ross is letting on.
13
The only thing I fear, as a secular liberal, is religious conservatism.
12
Perhaps this is too simply a concept but people who vote in support of overturning Obamacare and budgets that result in fewer services to the poor and homeless don't sound very Christ-like to me.
13
Mr. Douthat has a blind spot when it comes
to people who are not religious. He wrongly assumes
they all lack moral and ethical values, and this belief
leads him to faulty conclusions about the topics he writes
about.
21
De-Christianization is nothing to fear. Both in the US and Europe the most prosperous and least violent states are also the least religious.
If you truly believe that Americans are an exceptionally different species of human, cruel brutes who will turn into rampaging axe-murderers if the yoke of religion is lifted, say it.
Say it loud. Dog whistles are hard to hear in the din of modern media.
6
The unqualified support of Evangelicals for Donald Trump has, I think, shown us three things. Firstly, that their churches are essentially wholly-owned corporate subsidiaries of the Party formerly known as 'Republican'; and that they have become, in effect, an activist wing of a political organisation.
Secondly, they are crude consequentialists. They threw their weight behind Trump’s campaign and presidency, giving him their votes and their considerable (tax-free) financial support in exchange for him delivering on their key objectives, such as making the SCOTUS a conservative Christian bastion, repealing Roe v. Wade, and overturning marriage equality. Their long-term goal, of course, is the institution of a theonomy; but they know that takes more than one presidential term, which is why they will stick with Trump (and, presumably, Pence after him).
The third element in this rancid mix follows on from the second. Evangelical Christianity in America has shown itself to be a collective of unalloyed, weapons-grade hypocrites. Having spent their entire history demanding that the personal lives of their political opponents be judged, ruthlessly, by their self-appointed standards of sanctity, they have now enthusiastically embraced a man of apocalyptic amorality who has the morals of a warthog.
If the God they say they believe in actually exists, they may well find that they have cause for concern. Apparently He despises hypocrisy.
24
It's always a trade off, isn't it? If this plays out to it's conclusion (and it is far from certain that will happen) the non church goers will get some of their anger addressed. They will feel all warm and fuzzy that all these south of the border immigrants will be expelled. And the courts will be stacked to end abortion. But then what? What are you left with? I think the practicing religious folks will have gotten essentially what they wanted. They are, otherwise, pretty secure in who they are and are not handicapped with a raging anger that never gets satisfied. The non practicing group on the other hand are saddled with that anger. Trump won't be able to appease their hunger after giving them the appetizers, as it were.. It just won't be enough to soothe the beast. They will demand more. And Trump will have to give it to them. So who is next up on the gallows? Asians? Indians? Saudi Arabians? Look at the Trump supporters' faces at these rallies. Do they look like people easily satiated? So if Trump tosses them more red meat how will the more religious supporters look at that? At some point they will see they have gotten what they asked for but they don't want to go down the dark road any further. And then it will just be Trump and an angry crowd, always wanting more. We'll see what happens.
4
All of American politics is corrupted by failure to keep religion entirely out of the law pursuant to "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion". Religious "liberty" does not include any right whatsoever to coerce others to practice one's own faith.
16
I grew sceptical of christianity and Trump supporting hateful crowd of “christians’ only accelerated this. I can’t imagine a young person becoming a devote christion these days. Support greed and epic corruption?
Franklin Graham support for Trump is trully revolting. Playing for power and money, that’s what it is.
11
The unqualified support of Evangelicals for Donald Trump has, I think, shown us three things. Firstly, that their churches are essentially wholly-owned corporate subsidiaries of the Party formerly known as 'Republican'; and that they are, in effect, an activist wing of a political organisation.
Secondly, they are nothing more or less than crude consequentialists. They threw their weight behind Trump’s campaign and presidency, giving him their votes and their considerable (tax-free) financial support in exchange for him delivering on their key objectives, such as making the SCOTUS a conservative Christian bastion, repealing Roe v. Wade, and overturning marriage equality. Their long-term goal, of course, is the institution of a theonomy; but they know that takes more than one presidential term, which is why they will stick with Trump and, presumably Pence after him.
The third element in this rancid mix follows on from the second. Evangelical Christianity in America has shown itself to be a collective of unalloyed, weapon-grade hypocrites. Having spent their entire history demanding that the personal lives of their political opponents be judged, ruthlessly, by their self-appointed standards of sanctity, they have now enthusiastically embraced a man of apocalyptic amorality who has the morals of a warthog.
If the God they say they believe in actually exists, they may well find that they have cause for concern. Apparently He despises hypocrites.
5
Christians should be the first to recognize Trump.
When the twin towers fell as the rest of us gasped in horror, he noted that it made his building the tallest in town.
He locks people up who are asking for his help. He pits brother against brother be it regular citizens or members of the U.S. Congress.
Deception is his tool and he uses it without mercy or remorse.
He is expert at bending the laws of man without breaking them to ensure he has an edge to 'win' against honorable men. And now that he is President of the United States, he is willing to break the laws that he knows will not be enforced against him, until he sets up our government such that no laws can ever be enforced against him. Cavanaugh is a big step in that direction.
I've heard that some Christians believe that it is worth placing Trump in power in order to right some terrible wrongs that he is willing to correct for them, Roe v Wade, Prayer in Schools, etc. But, he does that for you because you give him something he wants, power. Once he has that and it can't be taken away from him, he can easily take back what he gave you, but you will not be able to take back his power, and we will all be left at the mercy of this merciless man.
17
The people of the USA are more ethical and moral than they have ever been I am Jewish I have worked from California to Newfoundland our society is more Christian than it has ever been. It is the conservatives through their Newspeak who have turned Christianity on its head. Christianity and American conservatism are incompatible. Jesus was a liberal Pharisee.
4
I sometimes amuse myself by imagining Jesus at a Trump rally. It would make good fodder for a Monty Python skit or an article in The Onion.
9
I'm sorry Ross, but a good portion of the most terrible and hateful human beings I know are Christians. One is my uncle. This health care professional wants to rip medical care aware from poor children because they don't "deserve it" and have "done nothing to earn it". He didn't used to be this way.
Another is a friend's aunt. She and her pastor husband swindle money out of their strip-mall congregation.
Another is a fundamentalist I know who could care less of what happens to the world and the people in it, because Jesus is going to reduce it to ash. He cares only about his personal salvation.
And then there are the people in power. Few human beings are as terrible as those on the Christian Right, who seem to exist solely to bring suffering to minorities. They hold their communities together by targeting those they hate as pariahs.
And few people are more destructive and ruinous to the faith and humanity than the leadership most looked-up to by traditionalist Catholics. From the level of vitriol and pure hatred, I still have no clue why one of this group has yet to try and assassinate Francis.
As an LGBT person, we are fully aware that the only thing standing between us and many Christians gutting us in the streets, is the law. And so now, your apologetic that non-Christian conservatives are nasty rings true. Only, I think it is the Christians who have taught them to be this way.
24
The Faustian bargain the early Church made was an indictator of the basic corruption in the institution,mri forced by the next 1800 years of Christian churches.
This is all about abortion. Conservative politicians cater to that issue to drive, cynically avoid telling their religious voters that their goal is unattainable. Abortion is illegal in most countries on the planet—but it has died out nowhere.
Look at the numbers in Latin America. Abortion is banned in every country save Cuba and Guyana. Yet not only is it still operative there, the rate and number of abortion is INCREASING.
Remember alcohol Prohibition? The day that amendment took Force was also the day alcohol won. The same is going to happen with abortion (plusmit will end up driving voters to the left).
3
Jesus was many things. But "conservative" he certainly was not.
Not in any way, shape or form.
He was actually quite a radical.
And they killed him for that.
20
How would Jesus vote? Very simply, one can either be a Republican or a Christian, but certainly not both. All you need to do is put together a ledger comparing the Republican platform with the teachings of Jesus Christ. For example, would Jesus advocate giving ever more to the already wealthy and always pay for it by taking food and healthcare away from children living in poverty? Or separating children from their parents and locking them up in detention camps? How does one attend church on a Sunday and celebrate the teachings of Jesus Christ, then walk into the voting booth the following Tuesday and vote for the Anti-Christ Republican agenda? The hypocrisy and cognitive dissonance of the Evangelical Christian community is overwhelmingly appalling.
16
Christianity has never been conservative at least according to the Gospels.
Christ certainly did not not have a conservative bone in his body. He rejected this world.
7
As far as I can tell, the dominant religion in every society in the world has become pretty much a force for evil. They are basically well organized groups intent on maintaining their power, re-enforced by the belief that they are the chosen ones.
In our country, this allows evangelicals to support the most immoral, unethical president in our history, someone completely unable to emphasize with even the most downtrodden in our society. They are rationalizing this with the `this is god's will' baloney. (For some reason, it could not be similarly `god's will' to guide a woman to get an abortion.)
There is no schism in Trump's GOP. It is all about give me mine.
7
The Conservative Evangelical movement have shot themselves in the foot by supporting Trump. Here's my question. Has Putin got his Russian mafioso fingers in their pie? After reading "House of Trump, House of Putin: The Untold Story of Donald Trump and the Russian Mafia" I wouldn't be a bit surprised. As local wars and climate change force people all over the world to move, the problem of immigration becomes a nifty tool to attack democracies and split governments to the advantage of neo-nationalist like Trump. The Evangelicals should be vigilant, because climate change has already arrived and need to read the another book besides the Bible.
6
I am curious to know more about the breakdown of "Christians" - mainstream Protestant, evangelical, Catholic? I think there is more gray in there than this column describes.
3
Conservatism after Christianity? Excellent article or better yet survey. I find it an oxymoron linking the two. Jesus was here to liberate us,not so? I find it repugnant that "christians " fundamentalist voted for Trump ,but not in Jesus name. They spent too much time memorizing scripture & not understanding what Jesus Christ preached. But enough of that. People should remember what he said about an eye of a needle. But the rich can buy pseudo purity over one issue ,abortion. American top 90% would be the in the top 10% of the world. One single issue brought "christians" to vote for Trump,the poster child for all that is not Christian. All his grabbing, his disrespect for fellow humans, his greed, his ignorance, vanity, marriage, etc. His sins alone will take an eon on judgement day by anyone's version of the Ten Commandments. But whether we are secular or fundamentalist as Christians, we have forgotten something, it is not whether we win or lose ,it is how we play the game. The game of life . Trump wants to "win" at all costs. ALL COSTS! And whether we are Christian or higher beliefs than ourselves, we are losing. "Oh,Father, forgive them ,for they know not what they do." And thus our Lord Saviour died on the the cross. It is time as Christians to know what they "do" in the corruption of Christ teachings. Lying ,cheating,stealing can never be done in Christs name. I pray for their souls.
4
Douthat has limited vision. In his world, genuine conservative Christians who love trump are less racist and more educated than the average trumpster. And of course liberals can’t have faith, they are always secular liberals—godlessness and immorality are implied.
What’s certain is that conservative evangelical trumpsters, educated or not, love the political power and want To impose their religious dogma on others by force of law. Separation of church and state—long forgotten.
I’ll stick with the truth that trump is immoral and dangerous to our country and world, and that Americans must be free to make their own decisions about faith.
7
Again Mr. Douthat sees history through a very limited lens: the believing community of the 3rd century didn't "accept the patronage" of Constantine, as if there were a solid institution to make such statements. Rather, the believing community of the time reflected, as always, the social structure that was present. To try to equate the lack of moral compass of those within today's believing community who sacrifice their moral standards for political gain with the acceptance by Constantine of belief in Jesus (imperfect as his belief may have been) is, ludicrous. And an excuse to not call out the so called religious right on their hypocracy.
4
"But the Constantinian bet involved a rising religion allying with a worldly power to accelerate its growth and gains"...We musn`t forget that the Christians gave up the essential religious experience in their Constantinian bargain, the mysteries were completely written out of the creed, and a blase religion was put in their place by the councils of the 3rd and 4th centuries wherein our modern church has it start.
That modern day Christians are giving up more of their essential religious belief to follow another political leader shows a true lack of faith.
4
I strongly recommend the book “Jesus Was A Liberal,” by Rev. Scotty McLennon, former Dean of Religious Studies at Stanford.
I don’t share Douthat’s admonition that liberals should be worried about the trend he outlines. In fact, liberals (even the secular ones, which is not all) are more closely reflecting the teachings of Jesus. Can anyone justify the current Republican policies in light of the Semon on the Mount?
Liberalism basically emphasizes the common good, “We the People,” “Promote the General Welfare,” care for the less fortunate. Conservatism more commonly focuses more on the rights of the individual. Both are necessary and represent the two underlying principles of American Democracy. Ask yourself though, which one of those did Jesus talk about more?
9
Any Christianity that tries to impose a way of life on others is false. The message of Jesus is about making a change in yourself, not forcing it on others. Evangelicals used to believe that entangling themselves in politics would be degrading to both themselves and to the nation's politics. The corrupt evangelical nationalism of the "Moral Majority" proved them correct, but they bought it anyway.
7
Christianity is at its most attractive when it is the religion of the poor, the weak and the humble. The Church's alliance with Constantine and imperial Rome introduced it to three corrupting temptations: persecuting state power, material wealth, and worldly respectability. It succumbed all too quickly.
2
I am a Christian and did not vote for Trump. I also have a hard time understanding why people of my own faith can support such a man. And can definitely support this data that there are many Christians who are sick with anger over our president's immoral character and dehumanizing agenda. More so, we are very embarrassed that our faith is associated with the reason he got in office.
Though I can't offer an apology from all Christians who voted for him, I can only offer an apology from myself (even though I didn't vote for him - I'm still associated with the people who did because I am a Christian) and that I do not believe this path we're on is right. It completely contradicts everything we believe in and truly stand for.
15
"But it’s hard to see how it can reverse de-Christianization, and easy to see how it might accelerate it. Which, on the evidence of this survey, is something that secular liberals should fear as well."
What the heck is THAT supposed to mean? You drop a comment like that, and that's the end?
I'm a left of center atheist. I don't FEAR the de-Christianization of politics, it is one of my greatest hopes for our country.
Christians and other religions can have all the religious liberty they want, and already have, as guaranteed by our constitution. Just keep their religion out of my country's politics.
10
When the so-called Christian right, formerly the Democrats in Southern states lost the rulings which sustained segregation, they became Republicans reinventing themselves with two major goals in mind, one to reverse the integration of schools and two to take over the courts. Abortion was merely the vehicle to unite these people in furtherance of the two aforementioned goals. They are well on their way to achieving these goals with the help of the big hypocrite Trump who has shrewdly realized that an alignment with these people can lead to power. One doesn't have to shout Betsy Devos or Brett Kavanaugh to realize that the government under Trump and supported by evangelicals is working hard on that agenda. Another way of looking at it is that they are going to shove this agenda down our throats regardless of what we believe, to be fair, is exactly what they believe we did to them. But one thing is for sure they are the minority not the majority.
7
What an excellent analysis of the survey's results, thank you (thought the last sentence left me baffled, seems like a tease, a cheap throwaway line without explanation).
It seems extremely shallow that a sizable group of people consider abortion and "religious liberties" to rise as far more important than all other issues much more likely to impact far more people. I've often seen this comment that religious folks are drawn to Trump's supposed support for "religious liberties." How are those being threatened currently? Are they talking about the resistance of them trying to force their fantastical beliefs on others through public institutions?
As well, the belief that Trump has "core values" is both laughable and self-delusional. He's proven over & over again his whole life that he has but one core value: love of self. If these folks think for an NY minute that he wouldn't throw "religious liberty" under the bus if he needed to for his own benefit they are sadly naïve.
One of the interesting observations I've had that runs counter to this column (though admittedly anecdotal, not scientific like this well written column) is how the various high profile "evangelical leaders" have been enthusiastically singing Trump's praises, one even calling him "the evangelical's dream president". The apex of hypocrisy.
7
Americans have watched the GOP lay exclusive claim to a distorted caricature of Jesus, while, at the same time, advancing a political platform that has nothing to do with healing the sick or feeding the poor, but is often in opposition to those commands (reductions to SNAP, eliminating Obamacare, etc.). In the media and at the pulpits, Christians use their platforms - not to lift people up - but to rail against The Other: the LGBTQ community; the 1-in-4 women who had an abortion; or The Liberals. (Naturally, they are silent on male sexual immorality, particularly when discovered among their leaders, and, many of them are against birth control, which is the best safeguard against abortion).
The church/GOP partnership makes Christians seem like a bunch of intolerant, political power-hungry hypocrites, because - let's be honest - many are. All of Western history teaches us that when politics and religion co-mingle, both are corrupted. It's no different in 2018, and we still aren't rendering unto Cesar what is Ceasar's. Maybe they missed that chapter?
Christianity already asks a lot of people; belief not least among its big asks. But, add to it dirty politics and Hate, and is it any wonder people chose to stay away? But, instead of hearing declining attendance as a wake-up call for self-examination and reform, they've decided to double down on what ails them, Trump and all. As a liberal Christian (mainline Protestant), it makes me sad.
3
The religiously right made a pact with the devil years ago and now he’s coming home to collect. I’m appalled at my religious friends who still support Trump, when he is the antithesis of everything Jesus stood for. No wonder over 30% of Americans are non religious and distrustful of religious leaders, and the number is growing every year. I love the new bumper sticker I’m seeing, “Hate is not a Christian virtue”.
8
I take religion seriously. I'm not evangelical myself, but I've met evangelicals who seem to be going about things the right way. But a lot of what passes for evangelicalism in this country has lost the plot, apparently because of their discomfort with the sexual revolution.
It's okay to be uncomfortable with some aspects of the sexual revolution. That's what the #MeToo business is about, and that's relatively non-ideological. But the religious right has got to get over the gay thing, and they've got to stop trying to reduce abortions by banning them. There are lots of ways to reduce abortions without making them illegal, and many liberals will join in a project like that. No woman or girl WANTS to be in the position of needing an abortion, after all.
There's common ground to be found out there, if the religious right's next generation is able to take the journey on these issues that liberals took 30-40 years ago.
But I don't think there's any common ground to be found with the white nationalists. They're a threat to the republic.
5
After many years, I've learned those who are most religious and who wear their religion on their sleeves and are unabashed about their faith share one trait. These are people to be most concerned about and those who (in a heartbeat) trample on others' personal liberties, choice of religious faith, civil rights, choice of life partners, and only wish to associate with like peoples (usually white, Christian, conservative). Make no doubt about it. There is a huge difference between living precepts of Christianity and describing yourself as a "Christian" are two views on living a righteous life.
Further add to this behavior is the hypocrisy, and the shameless lack of empathy. Just like their idol, Donald Trump. The correct description was "deplorable", although I would refer to these people in tougher and more brutal language and descriptors.
3
Religious Ross: "De-Christianization" should be extended to de-religionization. 'Conservative' in America is anything but conservative; it's tribalism, fear, and self-righteousness, all of which organized religions ultimately engenders based on the delusional belief in individual association with an omnipotent, and yet somehow merciful "god" that does not exist. True freedom and innate conservatism will not exist until humans learn to live in harmony with our natural environment, and to believe in what's here instead of what's not.
3
If I was King I would demand that the only thing conservative theorists could write about was the fact that they did not get the conservative message across to the base; the base only followed them to protect their position, not to stand on principle, which is what it means to be conservative. In this vein they would own some responsibility for Trump, again a conservative trait. Where were the conservatives when all manner of propaganda was spewed upon Obama; did truth telling take a backseat to getting votes? Did conservatives think they could dance with the devil, and then tell him when the dance was over? It is time for conservatives to grow up, and quit pretending the still remain on neutral ground, to observe and give good advice.They blew it; they need to own it, or sit down and be quiet as others speak. And please. Do not tell us what our liberals are doing wrong as a dodge to own Trump. Liberals will have their come to Jesus moment and realize that the perfect is the enemy of the good, that this is politics, not utopian fantasy building.
2
A person can go to church once a week without it meaning that person is moral or religious. I go to to the movies once a week without it making me entertaining or an actor.
6
Some of us have long known (and expressed it in opinion threads) that Americans exaggerate their religious fidelity and devoutness. Nonetheless, some people for purposes of tribalism and partisanship on both ends of the ideological spectrum have denied this.
The hard Right wants to consecrate its ideology, and mobilize church goers and the hard Left has always promoted the demonizing of all Christians, even moderate ones (but never other religions about whom a certain silence must be maintained). Now that the truth about the Trumpists is out and the most racist end of that group is shown as irreligious (no matter what they claim on TV), can we get a more enlightened discussion about the role of faith in America?
A discussion that has a more nuanced and informed view. An acknowledgement that many persons of faith regularly vote Democrat or split their vote. Further, an end to the broad condemnation against all Christians of multiple denominations and widely different politics which sometimes appears in these comment streams.
How about a survey that probes how much these so called evangelicals truly know or understand about the core tenets of their own religion? I think you would find that the label 'Christian' only fits a small fraction of politically active evangelicals, at the least.
2
Two things - A "secular" person is not determined by their attendance record at the local parish. Second, choosing Ted Cruz as somehow being a more "Christian" example is laughable. Less erratic than Trump, maybe. Christian values? Hardly.
7
"...Among non-churchgoing Trump voters, only 48 percent had warm feelings toward black people, compared to 71 percent of weekly churchgoers..."
So nearly one third of all church-going Trump voters don't have warm feelings toward black people.
And those 71% who feel warmly toward black people still managed to find it in their church-going hearts to vote for a man whose racism is manifest. I'm not black, but I think black folks can be forgiven if they don't exactly feel like returning that "warmth."
6
The “liberties” conservatives seek, either religious or not, are not liberties I want imposed on this country. The restriction of voting, the hate for gay Americans, the denigration of the poor, segregation of races, and the total lack of an immigration policy other than locking them up after separating families is abhorrent. Conservatives both religious or not support a man who has lied continually since entering the public consciousness as a rich guy with a big mouth, a reality “star”, and now as our 45th president. They have no shame nor sense of what they have done to the fabric of our nation, and have allowed themselves to be taken advantage of by a megalomaniac. God help us.
3
Thank you for this article. It made me feel both a little bit better, and also a lot worse.
The Trump supporters described this article cling to the lowest common denominators for their identity: being white, and often, being male, neither of which they can take any credit for. They cannot point to achievement, community, family, or compassion, as these qualities have completely broken down for them on a personal and social level. They are left with fighting for and against their and others' inherited DNA. Sad and dangerous.
5
I would agree with Mr Douthat that Christian conservatives have made a Faustian agreement with Mr Trump to bring about their social changes in spite of the President's moral failings that are in direct contraction with Christian teachings.
The dramatic irony in all of this is that Mr Trump will indeed bring about significant change in years to come, because of the moral rot that he's brought to Federal governance. The coming reaction to his behavior will ultimately stimulate a swing of the pendulum to the other direction, further diminishing the changes Christian conservatives seek.
2
That people are less Christian doesn't mean less religious, or at the very minimum it reveals a particular straight-jacketed view of what it means to be Christian. Not all self-professed Christians are Republicans and the decline of the church-attending Republican Christian might, you know, mean that there's a portion of the Christian community who rejects the ideological stranglehold evangelicals have had on politics associated with that name for the last several decades.
If that's not "Christianity" as Douthat recognizes, that's fine, because Christianity today is nothing like what it was in Paul's time either.
3
Russ, does this survey include Catholic Trump supporters as well as evangelicals? That would be a significant bloc, especially in rustbelt towns. If evangelicals, despite their support for Trump, are as a whole more resistant to white identity politics, I wonder if that also is true of Catholics.
1
This article makes me want to scream.
Trump is the embodiment of the 'Gospel of Prosperity' which I do not remember reading about in the Bible.
It seems to link financial success and religion in a devils bargain, which has nothing to do with the teachings of Christ.
As an enlightened X Christian, I respect the teachings of Christ,
but deplore the way they have been used by Trump and his enablers.
2
A book came out some years ago--"Christianity and Conservatism: The Unequal Yoke." (I think that's right.)
It is a tragedy these two things have become so inextricably linked. In the minds of many people nowadays. Especially Christians. Especially conservatives.
It was not always so. There was indeed (once upon a time) such a thing as Christian liberals. And, if I may put my two cents in, I would say: there is a CRYING NEED for Christian liberals right now.
And by liberals, I mean nothing more than: people who go to bat for other people. People who go to bat for the downtrodden, the oppressed, the powerless.
Nineteenth century workers. Slaves--and yes! I know. I would to God there had been MORE of these. But there were some.
Is there not--really--a far more fundamental disconnect between Christianity and conservatism? Not always, no!--but sometimes--when I think of "conservative" I think of a bland acquiescence in an unjust or oppressive status quo. Things are all right for me personally. And therefore--
--things are all right.
I'm comfortable. And therefore--
--the last thing I want is someone shaking things up. Rocking the boat. Rousing any quantity of sleeping dogs, when a wise man would choose to let them lie.
Oh no, Mr. Douthat! I don't see the gospel of Jesus Christ in such an attitude. But then. . . .and this I'm sorry to say--
--I don't see the gospel of Jesus Christ in a lot of today's conservatism.
3
One group is against abortion/contraception
One group is against taxes and government
That's as simple as it gets.
1
Upon the occasion of the first atomic bomb test at Alamagordo, New Mexico, Albert Einstein said, prophetically, “Everything has changed except our way of thinking.”
The same thing could be said for today’s hyper-polarized, media-frenzied masses, including so-called “Evangelical Christians.” Their support for Trump today is no different than the Roman Catholic Church’s support for despotic, murderous rulers back in 13th-century France, when their unholy alliances systematically wiped out upwards of a million fellow Christians whom they “disagreed” with and branded as heretics.
It’s only a matter of degree, Ross, when you throw out the lazy epithet “secular liberals,” as if that accurately describes all of us on the left who still believe in a just, compassionate, loving, and venal-authority-challenging Jesus the Christ as described in the New Testament.
Just stop, Mr. Douthat. Stop it.
5
Religious people have trained themselves to eschew reason and, indeed, the testimony of their own senses, in order to believe in invisible beings and reality-defying miracles. With such addled brains, it’s easy to see how they’d fall for Trump and think that voting for him is a smart move.
4
In many ways the American “style” of Christianity is both heretical and ersatz, with much in common with the current practice of democracy within our American republic.
3
The Rev. Billy Graham admitted in his later years that he had learned a hard lesson after the Watergate scandal exposed his complicity with Richard M. Nixon: Pastors should not become too enmeshed with politicians and partisan politics.
“Looking back I know I sometimes crossed the line, and I wouldn’t do that now,” he said in 2011.
The the very danger he had warned against is embraced by many Evangelicals who march in lockstep with President Trump and the Republican Party. When hearing a few stalwart " Christian Evangelicals" refer to Mr. Trump as their "Savior" the line between true belief in Christ and political beliefs about which Mr. Graham spoke was crossed in the most blasphemous and shocking way conceivable in my mind.
Furthermore, it is also inconceivable that Rev. Graham's own son Franklin Graham consistently defends the president and his egregious acts (during the white supremacist rally in Charlottesville, Va., the crackdowns on immigrants and refugees, the Stormy Daniels scandal, etc.)
In his words, “People say that the president says mean things. I can’t think of anything mean he’s said...he speaks what he feels,” “I think he’s trying to speak the truth.”
Think again, Mr. Graham and remember your father's sound advice by refraining from propagating your hypocritical and political support of this amoral president. You do not represent millions of true believers in Christ's teachings and you do not preach to the choir of the faithful. Stay off the pulpit.
3
This is an embarrassingly bad essay from a usually smart writer - why? A huge blind spot: race. Everything here is viewed through white goggles that Douthat seems to think are transparent. According to Pew, 14 percent of evangelicals are African-American. Almost 15 percent are Latino. Why not say - every time would be useful - WHITE evangelicals, WHITE churchgoers, WHITE conservatives instead of assuming some sort of default setting that renders invisible the one out of three evangelicals who are persons of color.
7
Can you imagine a column questioning the sanity of another race of people saying their race was important to their identity? Treating people of any race differently than others is always racism. And must be condemned. If this column isn’t racist, then racism doesn’t exist anywhere. Or is the argument that it’s ok to be racist against whites? If that is true, we are all doomed.
1
What you should write about, Mr. Douthat, is "Christianity" after Christianity.
Need it spelled out? Discuss what's happened to "Christianity," which is what's happened since so many "Christians" have stopped being Christian.
Need more help? Christians who do not obey the Commandments against lying, stealing, murder, who do not practice the Golden Rule, are Fake Christians.
They think they can order from the Ten Commandments like it's an a la carte menu. Doesn't work that way.
6
Ross Douthat just doesn't even remotely get it. The Christian Conservatives have now firmly taken over the Republican Party. They probably know where the dirt of Trump lies, so able to control his every move. And has he delivered for them, Conservative Judges (who will also favor religious rights over all others) all up and down the Federal Judiciary, Gorsuch and now Kavanaugh making SCOTUS a conservative court for years to come. They worked hard and now comes their payoff while we LGBT folks, women and all non Christians pay through the nose.
2
Ross Douthat: an impressive collection of all the different ways you can imply straight-out racism without saying the word racist. Let's see: "tribal on race and identity" - that's a good one! How about not having "warm feelings toward black people" Nice! How about "white-identitarian"! Are you kidding me? Oh, and it seems all the Trump voters - churchgoing or not, have hostile views toward Muslims but let's not let that worry us, let's press right on with the idea that going to church somehow makes you less white identarian. Given the twisted entanglement of Christianity and racism throughout history, you would think a guy who fancies himself a historian and loves to drop ancient Roman names all over the place would feel somewhat uncomfortable advancing this thought. Then we hear that our lovable churchgoing Trump voters are pragmatic! They accepted his "racial demagoguery" for gains on abortion and religious liberty. That's laughable. These racist bigots voted for Trump out of personal greed and racism. But the best is the ending, where somehow the byzantine logic of this essay arrives at the conclusion that secular liberals should fight for Christianity. Instead of, oh I don't know - fighting racism?
3
I read (somewhere) that more than 80% of Republicans support Trump. If so, I believe that Douthat has cherry-picked his statistics.
2
There's nothing conservative about today's Republicans.
They are radical right-wing zealots anxious to control everybody else's behavior from before cradle to grave. There's nothing conservative about that.
Republicans are bankrupt. Vote them out, every one.
7
I.e., religious conservatives sold their birthright for a mess of pottage. The great danger of religious conservatism is not “Christianization” — it’s the utter lack of principle.
3
Trump's Christian voters espouse the pragmatic and cunning Jesus Christ. You remember, from somewhere in the Bible, the story of how Jesus Christ secretly sought out and petitioned Pontius Pilate to try him and crucify him so that his followers could create a myth that Jesus was not a wealthy, patriotic Roman citizen who owned many slaves, but the humble son of an all powerful god who wanted to start a new religion.
Plain and simple: "Christians" supporting Trump is an explicit denial of Christianity.
5
A study is just a study, Ross, and a look through them will certainly yield ground for an editorial which "proves" what you wish, I suppose. Another study, a large one, indicates that, church or not, just about 75% of republicans self-identify as Christians. Or what passes for Christian in these bizarre days. One would think you aren't proud of Christians as they now are, or of republicans, the way you wriggle to escape them now. Perhaps you should consider changing one or more of your own affiliations.
http://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/party-affiliation/
2
"The irreligious (Trump voters) are less likely to have college degrees, less likely to be married and more likely to be divorced; they’re also less civically engaged, less satisfied with their neighborhoods and communities, and less trusting and optimistic in general."
In other words, L O S E R S
And their pathetic existences are not the fault of knee grows or immigrants. The culprit is the man-in-the-mirror.
1
"Churchgoing Trump voters were...more likely to support the death penalty, more skeptical of immigration — and their views of Muslims, interestingly, seemed... more hostile between 2016 and 2017."
What precisely makes these people Christians, Ross? By your own description, they are vengeful, unwelcoming and xenophobic.
Why would anyone want to emulate them or be comforted by their "faith"? It's enough to make Christ weep.
2
The header should read "Christianity after Conservatism." Once again, Douthat demonstrates the Christian agenda. This is why they will continue to increase their radicalism as long as they are in 'power.' This is why they are losing future generations.
They are so selfish.
3
Trump couldn't have been elected without the vote of religious conservatives. Ross is 100% correct in this assessment. Funny that Ross doesn't see that his assessment confirms the hypocrisy and racism of those "religious conservatives". Suppose the problem is that Ross can't see the forest for the trees, he can't see his true self.
1
Ross,
The reason the evangelicals support trump is more related to their inherent racism than anything else.
It's not about religion.
After all, it's hard to consider an ideology of total hypocrisy as constituting a religion.
Except in practice in the real world.
2
"Pragmatic bet"? Make a deal with the Devil because he promises good things to come." That used to be known as a "Faustian bargain." Oh the Devil is very pragmatic. Ask Dr. Faust.
Hmm...the christianization of conservatism is what made me leave the G.O.P. in the first place.
5
Let's open up the introduction a bit:
"One of the many paradoxes of the Trump era is that our unusual" (ie, pathological, narcissistic, dysfunctional, unindicted co-conspirator) "president"
"couldn’t have been elected" (ie, implanted into office by gerrymandering and an outdated electoral process and system that does NOT represent the popular vote)
"and couldn’t survive politically today, without the support of religious conservatives" (ie, people who drank the kool-aid, propaganda, billionaire /corporate money, Russian mob money and Russian interference).
3
I highly, highly doubt that the percentage of Trumpers who consider whiteness important to their identity is that low. It is likely in the 90-95% range. "Make America Great Again" was a blatant dog whistle to angry whites who are resentful of nonwhites. Trumpers were known to lie in polls during the 2016 election, so I suspect they are probably lying here as well.
5
Ross often writes about his Catholic Church and his Republican Party. One can understand his moral dilemma, what with both institutions under constant attack for the illegal acts and massive hypocrisy exhibited by their sordid leadership. It's time to move on, Ross.
2
“Pope Francis criticized Christians who emphasize opposition to abortion above social causes such as poverty and migration, in his latest effort to readjust the priorities of Catholic moral teaching from what he has characterized as an overemphasis on sexual and medical ethics.” This defines the difference between “conservative-evangelical Christians” and Roman Catholics, Lutherans, Anglican-Episcopalians. RC dissidents who denounce the Pope and spread rumors like former Nuncio Vigano, who has formerly challenged the Pope’s authority with a motive: to elevate himself, seek to restore the privilege and impunity that created and perpetuated the pedophile priest scandal. They want to make the church great again. Sadly those sentiments neglect the obstruction of justice engaged by church hierarchy that transferred assailants who corrupted more children. Restoring the aristocracy is the goal of Trump and his oligarchic friends and “conservative religious groups”.
“Religious liberty” is a dog whistle for theocracy, Christian shariah law. It promotes a religion devoted to genital and fetal morality. Depriving the poor, disabled, the sick, the hungry, refugees and non-whites and promoting inequality, and military oppression are sanctioned if fetuses and corporations are super citizens and women and the poor are subordinated. “Conservative Christianity” is a quintessential cult that rejects compassion and embraces revenge. Christians are compassionate.
3
I ask again: why in the world does the New York Times not have a regular columnist who is a liberal Christian?
There are millions of us out here, and many of us have much more formal education than Mr. Douthat who, according to Wikipedia, has only a bachelor's degree.
I myself am a former newspaper reporter who went back to school at midlife for a master's degree in Biblical Studies and a PhD in History and Phenomenology of Religion.
I am not applying for the job of NYT columnist but I hate the fact that the Christian religion's only regular spokesperson in your newspaper's editorial pages is someone aligned with a political system that is both heartless and gratuitously cruel, the antithesis of everything Jesus stood for.
Let's face it: if you examine the Sermon on the Mount and Jesus' other core teachings (e.g. "Love your enemies." "Blessed are the merciful.") you can only come to one conclusion:
Jesus was a liberal.
So I ask once more: why does the Times not have a regular columnist representing the Jesus of the Bible? As long as you publish Mr. Douthat, it's unconscionable that you leave the rest of us Christians out of the national conversation.
6
I see no conflict for some folks who go to church regularly and still voted for Trump, liar, philanderer, predator, cheater, AND pretender to financial and personal strength.
Lots of folks who call themselves Christians worship an all-powerful God who they think will favor them with blessings in life and a cushy after-life. They are not following Christ. They are worshiping power. And so, Trump the "powerful" appeals to them because he exhibits what they mistake for true strength: bluster and wealth.
"Christianity", as often practiced, promises forgiveness of sins without atonement, favoritism in life and safety in death. And don't forget that if you "believe" (without understanding), you don't have to actually do anything about evil because "It's God's will."
True Christianity requires love for God and for everyone else. It requires active goodness in life, not lip-service and rote church attendance. And of course Jesus was Jewish and the Jews require atonement for sins. Wow. Atonement!!
4
It's painful to read a convoluted article such as this, without mentioning the superstition, delusion, and dogma that is christianity.
Why, in this day and age, do people respect a book they don't ever read? The bible has bits of human wisdom, but is loaded with contradictions, and is mostly gibberish.
We really are in a New Age, and religion is part of the old.
2
Apparently the people doing the survey take people at their word when they self-identify as Christian. You are not a Christian because you say you are. Ross, are all those sexually abusing priests Christians? No, they are frauds. It is scary to think that we're actively pursuing public policy based upon the preferences of people who SAY they're Christians. Good Christians have humility.
1
Although I can't speak to the bonafides of the methodology used in the study quoted in this piece, I am very skeptical about the conclusions regarding the religious conservatives described herein. Having been a conservative religious person, I am not one now, I am well aware that the religious have a higher-than-normal propensity to delude themselves. Case in point, Utah Mormons describe themselves as the happiest people on earth, yet the state continually one of the leaders in the nation of anti depression drug prescriptions, suicide, and drug addiction. At any rate, this attempt to whitewash Christian evangelicals, fails miserably. If your only goal is to put a person on the Supreme Court who will strike down Roe v Wade, while ignoring the rest of the cesspool, you've compromised everything you stand for, and you are no better than the person you are supporting, Donald Trump. In other words, as I pointed out above, you are delusional.
1
The Evangelicals that have supported Trump through thick and thin have showed us that being Evangelical is more than a religious person who believes in the absolute truths of the Bible.
Being an Evangelical is not to be religious but to be distrustful of science, misogynist, xenophobic, racist, hateful of the metropolitan elites who look down on them and Trump despite his loathsome sins and faults speaks to them. Being Evangelical today is a culture not a religion.
2
Just you wait Mr. Higgins, just you wait....Oops, Mr. Douthat.
Once the oh-so-pious Priest-in-Chief, Mike Pence, takes over the helm of the US government when his mob-boss master it finally pushed out, Christianity of the good ol' time, e.g. the pre-Enlightenment one, will rule this country, while the Founding Fathers are turning around in their graves.
As to your terror of the supposedly de-Christianization of this country, the dismantling of the Evangelical kind can't come early enough.
Mahatma Gandhi noticed it what seems to be ages ago, when saying "I like your Christ, but I do not like your Christians. They are so unlike your Christ".
9
Evangelicals may SAY they are more racially tolerant; however, their actions suggest otherwise
They have no problem supporting of a bigot who uses the language of racial and cultural resentment to stigmatize Muslims, Hispanic (particularly Mexicans and Puerto Ricans) and Blacks.
They support a man who dislikes immigrants from African and Latin-American countries. Most of these immigrants are fellow Christians.
They suppport a person who has lied unrepetantly over 5000 times and who finds it hard to denounce Neo-nazis.
They support a man who wants to use the department of justice to persecute political enemies and minorities.
One cannot claim to love thy neighbor while standing idly by or even cheering while someone is unjustly stoning that "beloved neighbor".
And don't tell me Evangelicals do not like Trump but are willing to put up with him because of the appointment of conservative judges.
St. Mark said it best (Mark 8:36):
For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?
2
Douthat wants us to be thankful that Christian conservatives support Trump slightly less fervently than secular conservatives. This is a very weak apologia for the rotten timber of Christian conservatism. If they actually withdrew their support for Trump, his base would crumble. Seems to me like they’re still part of the problem and still total hypocrites for supporting a man who is about as un-Christian as it’s possible to imagine. A better posture than hoping that conservatism stays Christian (and bigoted, homophobic, etc) is building a movement of Christians, atheists, Jews, Muslims, and everyone else that rejects all forms of bigotry, Christian or otherwise.
4
I'm an Evangelical Christian and I didn't/don't support Trump! (I didn't support Clinton Either) Many Evangelicals, didn't believe a Womanizer, Bigly Liar, Racist, Cheater, Full of pride bragger! Deserved to be President! I go to a 1000 member Pentecostal Church, and I can tell you 61% of our members didn't support Trump! (The NY Times Gives the 61% number) I'd say more like 25%. and most of them were reluctant supporters.
Pollsters are counting nominal Christians as Evangelical Trump supporters.....For Example, My Father in law, loves Trump!( He voted for Obama in 2008) If he were asked by a pollster, did you support Trump? He would say, yes. Are you a Christian? Yes. Do you attend Church? Again he would say, yes. But,he's not an Evangelical! He Doesn't read the Bible, he only goes to Church for weddings or Funerals! He's not a Evangelical Christian by any stretch of the imagination( he's a good guy btw) i don't say these things to put him down, but to show, how the polls are wrong.
As usual, Douthat misses the point. Trump voters who are frequent churchgoers may not be racist, but they tolerate a racist. They may not be liars, but they tolerate a liar. They may not favor authoritarianism, but they tolerate an authoritarian. They have made a transaction in which they are willing to risk the health of the republic in exchange for political power for their religion. They sold their souls.
5
Sounds like Douthat is really trying to argue that Church-going creates a more ethical person than secularism. But he is limiting his sample to Trump voters which is a little like going fishing in a sewer. I suspect his sneaky “religion makes us better people” argument would fail miserably when secular, elitist, urban Democrats are added to the equation.
6
This is a distinction without merit. Perhaps the holy rollers simply hate secularists, atheists, feminists, LGBT folks, and muslims more than PoC? But maybe that's just because the preacher tells them racism is a sin, and thus, they know the acceptable Christian answer to give on a survey. They have no problem fervently supporting blatantly racist policies, however, and they engage in an outright holy war against the rest of us.
Other surveys show that Evangelicals and a segment of Catholics provide Trump's unwavering core support. Hard pass on propping up your stinky religion to save society, Ross. Don't reach out to the Americans long-persecuted by your churches because you don't like the look of your less dainty secular counterparts.
3
Christians?
And they support a man who has defied/defiled almost everything Jesus taught us?
Really?
4
I am still mystified as to why Evangelicals and other devout Christians professing to believe in family values supported a sexual predator with no family values, who cheated on all his wives with a string of tawdry affairs, who lies as he breathes, whose business practices involve a fair degree of criminality and whose only gods are mammon and his own massive ego.
So far the only plausible explanation is hypocrisy on a grand scale.
2
Go to church; don’t go to church. It really doesn’t matter. Voting for Trump is a mistake you will come to regret.
1
This article, frankly baffles me. Why wouldn’t you expect the racist views of the secular voters to far exceed those of the religious voters? The religious voters had their eyes on the Supreme Court. The secucular voters liked that Trump “told it like is”—he talked like they thought. It’s also possible the religious voters only self-describe as feeling “warmer” toward black people because, after all, they’re not supposed to sound racist and angry.
But here’s a radical idea, maybe those religious folks find their ranks thinning because they are so pragmatic and cynical. They’re willing to lie down in the same political bed with racists and anti-Semites to get what they want. They call Trump “God’s crude vessel” or a “baby Christian”. It doesn’t take much to figure out Trump’s no Christian at all.
Maybe the Religious right might want to focus on social justice, or not taking health care away from millions who need it, or not banning asylum seekers from the country, or not orphaning children at the border or not despoiling God’s planet
The religious right sold their souls for political gain, and if the resurgence of racism hurts a lot of people, well—shrug—that’s how God rolls. Go along with utter amorality to get stuff you want—oh wait, is that the gospel of Mark or Luke? Because at this moment they look anti-Jesus: mean, small, hypocritical, judgemental, angry. In a word, the opposite of holy and the definition of craven.
4
Actually, these so called Christians have just rebrand themselves from the old "Moral Majority" marketing slogan!
1
Clearly Christian voters should be barred from voting.
1
While many on the Left do not like or tolerate the religious this phenomenon is far more pronounced in Europe. I have NEVER been religious, not even at 9 years old, the age I left home to live in a very strict private school and then UK's #1 military academy where we all went to Church everyday. I have never hated the religious or seen a reason to as so many aggressive 'seculars' do.
Indeed if you read the insulting comments in the UK Guardian where every problem is blamed on the religious, as though politics, colonialism and frankly a criminally aggressive foreign policy inc our support for Saudi Arabia or our destruction of relatively secular one's like Libya, the aggressive seculars behave like an aggressive new religion themselves, self righteous, intolerant and often very ignorant as well.
The problem my fellow humans is HUMAN nature. Of course it is true that religion has been and is used by regimes (Constantine) for political purposes but the abuse of 'Science' is no different, being done and run by humans too and if many of the religious do not see the negatives of their thinking this is the same for the intolerant anti religious. I too have noticed that the neo Nazis, whose race hatred is spread via the internet, are mostly also anti religious (or neo Pagan), nihilistic and share with their non racist cousins the totalitarian view, so often expressed by the Guardian crowd, that religious parents should have their children removed for 'child abuse'! Frightening
3
A former Baptist, the election of Trump, and the rise of the Trumpublicans, has put me off all organized religions. It is unlikely that I will darken a church door any time soon. That so-called Christians can support an amoral demagogue and would-be tyrant has revealed what is at the core of all the proselytizing these pious bigots (hello, Mike Pence) are forever mouthing: pure undiluted humbug.
4
If hypocrisy was a religion, it would undoubtedly be more popular and powerful than all others combined! More's the pity ...
2
Only you could summon up Constantine and the notion of a “bet” placed by Roman subjects while talking about Trump. Having read a lot of the Cambridge Ancient History, Dr. Pomposo, I can assure you that most of the people in the late Ancient World, who did most of the living and dying, didn’t really care about the palace intrigues going on in Rome or Ravenna or Constantinople. They just cared about who was going to invade and rob them next. We are lucky here in that we can afford to even glance at fatuous arguments like yours.
2
".....Churchgoing Trump voters were still more culturally conservative than Hillary Clinton voters ", really! They are accepting and tolerant of Trump's un-Christian traits, 'bearing false witness' over 4000 (fact-checked) times, repaying wrong done to him ('100 times' in his own words) instead of turning the other cheek!
2
I don't need the bible to tell me thou shalt not steal and thou shalt not kill.
More than that, the bible has polygamy. The bible has slavery. And in the bible, they stone a woman to death for adultery.
Funny they never stone a man to death for adultery.
Not only was the bible written by man, it was written by men.
3
Somewhere in another galaxy is an intelligent species of mostly atheists: they are peaceful, freedom-loving, well-adjusted.
3
Why are Christians never satisfied to live their lives according to their own moral code and leave the rest of us to ours? The American "Christian" idea of religious liberty is to impose their religion on everyone else through the political process. Ick. No wonder they are so confused.
And why is Christianity the only religion of interest in this supposedly free country? If you replace the word "Christian" in this article with "Jew" or "Muslim," would it even get published? Ross always like to see the world in binary terms (nice he seems to have dropped the habit of insulting the Left in every piece), which overly narrows his arguments to the point of absurdity.
6
Bravo for the column, Mr. Douthat. Your thoughts were cogent as ever, but your best gift to me was your fresh description of Trump as "Caligulan." Wikipedia tells of sources that pictured the unfortunate Roman emperor as focused "upon his cruelty, sadism, extravagance, and sexual perversion, presenting him as an insane tyrant."
Nailed it!
5
Christianity is not in decline.
1
Evangelical Christians -- deniers of evolution and global warming -- lost their intellectual respectability years ago. Now they have completely lost whatever moral compass they had by their support of Trump.
And the Alt-Right never had a moral compass to begin with.
In summary, your Republican party consists of the proudly ignorant and the morally bereft. Congratulations.
5
What a great forum to spew hatred of people of a different political party. A celebration of accusations of racism. A thoughtful discourse of ideas? Not exactly. Try getting away with saying these things about liberals.
2
There are more and more of us that do not believe in a god that ............... I don't even know what this god thing is supposed to be doing anymore.
I will say this, I don't believe in one.......I do believe in other constants.......psychological, biological, evolutionary, and physical ............. and yet, every day, I figure out how I can use my gifts to serve others without any agenda other than to hopefully make the world a little bit better place to live.
Anyone want to come join my religion?
5
Evert time I see someone in a red trump hat it reminds me of all the delusional followers of Mao Zedong waving his little red book. One can by a copy on of Chairman Mao's quotations on Amazon for $11.27. I wonder how much a trump hat will cost in 40 years.
6
What would Jesus do?
Not what 29 percent of his followers do – which is, according to this new survey, shun black people.
It's no surprise that “among non-churchgoing Trump voters, only 48 percent had warm feelings toward black people.” ("Warm feelings"? Douthat's phrase or the survey's?)
Still, here’s that sentence in its entirety: “Among non-churchgoing Trump voters, only 48 percent had warm feelings toward black people, compared to 71 percent of weekly churchgoers.”
Holy freakin’ moly! (Insert emoji of Jesus doing a face palm here.) Only 71 percent of god-fearing, church-going Christians could summon a genuine warm feeling toward black folks? More than one-fourth of professed Christians could not? Wow.
What would Jesus do about this? I don’t pretend to know. Wait a minute. I forgot about that Christian Bible book, which contains (or purports to contain) all sorts of records of what Yeshua said and believed about brotherhood and those sorts of things. (Yeshua, BTW, is the more direct translation-pronunciation of J.C.’s Hebrew name – if you had been in Jerusalem 2,000 years ago and yelled “Hey Jesus!” then no one would have turned around.)
BTW, the historical Yeshua, if he did exist, would have been what in modern U.S. and western European society – that is, in white hegemonic society -- is deemed a “person of color.” That is, Yeshua’s genetic origins must have sprung from the Middle East/Fertile Crescent/Semitic-speaking peoples and not, say, ye olde England. Tally ho!
3
So, you are basically saying that a large chunk of Trump's base are the kinds of extremist young men who drive their cars into crowds of people, or march with Nazis.
6
Ross's thinly veiled attempt at using a survey to sanitize himself and his religious crowd bears a striking resemblance to Pontius Pilate washing his hands of torture and execution of the innocent.
Granted, the unchristian guilt of blood on your hands is uncomfortable, but not so much that Ross et al won't continue to empower the GOP to crush the poor, the weak and the sick.
Ross hides precious little of his shame behind the fig leaf of pious religious reverence in a survey.
5
At least Trump's climb has blown wide open the hypocrisy and racist underbelly of many 'so-called' Christian sects. As if religion wasn't having a hard enough time surviving in the modern age. They let their irrational emotions rule them to gain a few crumbs. Meanwhile the kids are leaving the churches in droves. A penny wise and a pound foolish comes to mind.
4
Of what value is American conservatism? It is white christian nationalism. It is a cancer. If only Douthat were capable of recognizing his contribution to the malignancy.
4
Calling people “irreligious” is the first step in denying their religious liberty.
6
So Trump falls in the never go to church group and shows the same characteristics. How about the always Sunday's at the golf club group?
3
Trump's political connection to the Evangelicals and theirs to him makes Trump the user and the Evangelicals, hypocrites. A damning situation on both sides
Further more, Trump's abusive confrontational attitude toward nearly everyone has, I posit, awakened in groups and organizations a freedom to challenge. It has loosened the tongues of the aggrieved. Witness the turmoil in the Catholic Church and the very successful #MeToo movement.
This is the time of "put up your dukes." And in many instances, it is long overdue.
4
From the NY TIMES, (Joe Sharkey, 2002): "In tumultuous post-World War I Germany, the Christian churches 'had long been associated with conservative ways of thought, which meant that they tended to agree with the [Nazi Party] in their authoritarianism, their attacks on Socialism and Communism, and in their campaign against the Versailles treaty'...
"'Attracted by the strategic value inherent in the churches' 'historic mission of conservative social discipline,' the Nazis simply lied and made deals with the churches while planning a 'slow and cautious policy of gradual encroachment'' to eliminate Christianity.'"
You can't make a deal with the Devil and call the transaction holy.
4
WWJD? Not what Trump's selling...
4
Isn't this called "a bargain with the devil?"
4
How do we know that church-going evangelicals are less racist than their supposedly more secular counterparts? Douthat’s answer, citing a survey, is essentially, “Because they say so.” Nonsense. Just as a survey is no reliable window into a person’s heart, neither is a supposed follower of Jesus one who merely claims to be. A vote for Trump, a known racist (evident by his actions), is itself a racist act, despite the voter’s genuine belief that he or she is not a racist.
Douthat makes it sound as though historical Christianity somehow managed to run parallel to the secular Roman power with which it made peace out of expedience. In fact, Christianity became the official religion of the empire under Constantine, transforming the polity and culture into its own image. It became the state itself. American evangelicals may be using Trump to achieve their own ends, even while holding their noses. But those ends do not stop at the abolition of abortion. These believers (not all) have no interest in getting along with Caesar. They want to BE Caesar. Which is why Mike Pence is a far more terrifying prospect than the mere “****ing moron” (Rex Tillerson’s description of the president) currently in the White House.
So one welcomes wholly secularized Christians like Douthat: those whose beliefs are interesting to contemplate, but whose ideological convictions and aspirations, tempered by education and natural intelligence, have no discernibly negative impact on policy.
3
I think Mr Douthat should be more precise about describing Trumpists as economic populists. Perhaps Trump’s hostility to “free” trade and his fondness for tariffs has some elements of economic populism, but that’s it. His tax policies, deficit growth, attacks on the ACA, attacks on consumer protection, failures to invest in infrastructure, or education, and his disregard for the particularly harsh effects of pollution and climate change on poor and working class people are not the policies of a populist.
5
While I'm willing to listen to arguments about the most effective government policies that are efficient economically, and I've tried to see the other side, what may be driving Trumpites... I cannot.
They are anti-American down the to the foundations -- they run on anti-government platforms, they've taken an actual liking to Putin, they put us into super deficits, they demonize war heros, they whistle to neo-Nazis, they are totally wrong on the policies that saved our economy last time, they are dangerously wrong on climate, they suppress the vote and gerrymander with abandon, anything for power, not selling their ideas, just suppressing their opponents. They have a somehow European looking Jesus and worship prosperity gospel and the calf in the golden tower. What's to like? What is salvagable?
14
In America, conservatism after Christianity will look and behave like the right wing parties of Europe. That's ugly.
13
The Evangelical support for Trump, an amoral man, is in itself proof that Christianity is a spent force, it is in decay, and may be dead already.
10
@Thomas
They hitched to neofascists and phony patriots to keep staying in power though.
Real issue for DNC Politburo members--what to do with all those non-secular heretics who will continue voting for Trump despite the ad nauseam Sovietized propaganda coming out of New York City's mass-media central? Deep-swamp gulags?
2
The column is about the broad support of Trump by white nationalists , closeted or otherwise. Framing the analysis in the context of a religious faith is an attempt to put lipstick on a pig.
9
@JL These comments are nothing but religious bigotry and racism. Congratulations. Try saying these things about Sikhs, Hindu, Buddhists, Shinto, Jews, atheists, Amish, Spanish, Finnish, Korean etc. it would never be printed and if it was someone would be fired.
2
So, we have under-educated racists and misogynists -- the plurality -- v. right wing evangelicals -- a dwindling minority -- who hold their noses and support President Caligula. What's not to like about this party?
6
Thank you Mr. Douthat, for making the solid case that secular Trump supporters are at least open about their racism, as opposed to the religious Trumper hypocrites that hide behind their fake Christianity but still voted for a racist, self proclaimed sexual predator.
If Christ came back now and saw what is being done in his name, he’d throw up.
10
You know the old saw about being known by the company you keep. Well, the company that the religious right keeps is white supremacists. The trick is to figure out whether the religious right is tainted by the stench of racism, or whether white supremacists are tainted by the misogyny and hatred for the poor that characterizes the religious right. I hold no illusions that it will all be better after we return to back alley abortions, as I believe that the religious right is a wholy-owned subsidiary of white supremacists and will continue to march us all toward a fascist state.
12
The study reveals that Trump Christians who go to Church on a regular basis are less racist, misogynistic, and xenophobic than Trump Christians who do not attend church regularly. Good Grief! What a terrible indictment of both Church attending and non church attending white Trump Christians voters. Also, what does it say that we are now nuancing the level of horribleness of different groups of white Christian Trump voters?
24
@Sparky: What would Jesus say about Trump's public conduct?
What would Jesus do?
Well, according to the book that right wing so called Christians quote like it was Scripture, we know what Jesus did:
He healed the sick.
He fed the hungry.
He visited the prisoner.
He clothed the naked.
He tended the poor.
He threw the bankers and merchants out of the temple.
He forgave those who tortured and murdered him.
He did all that with love and compassion, not with self-righteous judgement.
He did exactly the opposite of what these so called Christians in the republican party are doing.
There is another point to be made about t rump's "secular" supporters and the desperation they seem to embody. Most of them live in areas under the thumb of republican policies of austerity. They have the freedom to carry guns and grudges. And that is all. They don't have the freedom to send their kids to better schools. Or get help for the teen addicted to heroin. Or be secure enough with their health insurance to move to a better job, or a better location.
They vote for republicans and against their own best interests because F(alse)ox and their bishops tell them that those liberals are destroying THEIR country and they should take it back.
Maybe some of these people will finally realize who the real enemy is.
22
@Bob Laughlin: It is liberating to exclude the need for deadly force from one's own life.
Good insights. Analysts across the board tend to de-emphasize or ignore the outsized impact that religion has on history.
Findings do apply to non-evangelicals/fundamentalists, of whom this article (largely) speaks. However, conscientious and practicing Christians of all kinds-Catholics, Methodists, Lutherans, Congregationalists, etc.-- tend to support an ethical society with extended family structures. Ironically, we are moving away from both Christianity and the society it supports by promoting consumerism and inequality. Urbanization and economic advance tends to also promote secularism. That can destroy ethics, which are based on a consensus that we need to pay attention to rules set by powers greater than human.
As someone once said, "Love of money is the root of all evil."
And love of Trump is therefore a Faustian bargain.
1
I would offer this counsel to Christian Conservatives:
If you kowtow to Donald Trump, you are following in the footsteps of those men, or should I say mice, of the clergy who acceded to Adolf Hitler, who signed the Nazi-Vatican concordat of 1933 and facilitated Hitler's domination of Europe and complete desecration of European Christendom.
I am a Jew and I am not well versed in Christian theology.
I believe that there is language in the New Testament that says "render unto Ceaser's that which is Ceaser's." I think Christians have all too often exaggerated how much Ceaser can validly lay claim too. Christians would have been better Christians, and would have been less antiSemitic, if they were less apt to bow to dictators.
1
Give it a rest, Ross. The Christian Right is complicit in all the crimes being committed by this illegitimate POTUS. You can't intellectualize that away. They've proven time and time again they have no integrity. They gave their guy a pass on too many transgressions to count, without acknowledging he continues to do so on a daily basis, whcih makes them accomplices. They prove once again that their religious convictions are nothing but a sham to hide behind when it suits them, like churches evading taxes, forcing thier draconian views on abortion on the rest of us, and credibility for their ridiculous so-called 'Universities'. Show some guts and own up to your hypocrisy and false narratives.
10
interesting but you're missing the point. the evangelical hypocrites may poll nicer but will still never vote for a democrat (esp HRC). they enable the devil just like the polluters and russia lovers. i would happily abandon my tribe and call especially "religious" muslims radical extremists if we could also realize that us evans are cut from the same cloth
7
It was worth reading this column just to encounter your very apt phase:
“his Caligulan personal life and racial demagoguery”.
4
Mr. Douhat: It was YOUR party of con artists and charlatans that exploited a phony baloney Christianity to sucker the rubes and yahoos into voting against their economic interests for the faux Christian crooks and lying Republican thieves of YOUR party so these political criminals could turn the country over their Koch Brother masters. It is YOUR party that weaponized religion and bigotry to get elected so they could loot the country. The rest of us are sick of this charade; instead of worrying about the future of the Republicam Party hopefully Americams will go to the polls in November and begin the END of the Republican Party, in its entirety, for once and for all.
11
The terms "conservative" and "christian" seem to have lost their meaning.
4
Don't let this survey fool you; a MUCH larger portion of Trump supporters are white-identitarian than the small amount that admitted so. "Make America Great Again" was a dog whistle that every white Trump supporter understood with a wink and a nod.
9
those non-church going white folks you so hard trying to distinct from other church going white folks, have merely changed their religion. Once they realized that the illogical idea of "God" doesn't help them (finding a job, and get a head in life among other things), so they stopped going to church. But, they found a new illogical idea (religion); being white. And with Trump they found a psychopath that represents this idea of being "white" as an object of worship. Stupid ideas don't just disappear, they adjust to new realities but remain stupid non the less (George Carlin said, and I paraphrase, you can't cure stupid....). To try and claim that the difference between different peoples' moral abilities or inclinations is due to practicing a particular religion is wrong, dangerous, and divisive. The problem begins when children are being taught to believe in fantasy tales as if they were reality. Once we teach them that humans walked the earth with dinosaurs, they will believe anything...
a simple path lies before all of us, regardless of denomination or background . . . listen to christ and follow him, reject the christians without a backward look . . .
1
Sunday evening tent revival Iowa city the Fair grounds, the young Evangelical Minister has just finished his sermon. The word, the “word of God” shouted and yelled to this crowd of faithful. They believe, they find security in the words in the prayers but their children aren’t there.
The Preacher, “Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.” its in the Bible, Jesus said it but these neighbors they don’t speak English, they don’t go to our church, the don’t belong to the Elks or the Moose and I never saw them at the local 4th of July Parade last year. How can I accept them? How can I believe that God wants this?
So they live and die in their Sea of Grass and their children don’t believe and they too can’t find their way to belief, to faith that requires them to do such impossible things.
Where do these lost people of the Heartland go when their moral compass has shattered, who guides you? 2016 gave us a “man on a white horse”, a vulgar man of appetites crude and immoral by their deepest believes but he gave them certainty. He provided the name of the evil which had befallen them and he promised every day to “Make America Great Again”. Who could resist, not I not they so they embraced the this man of clay and made their peace with promises and lies because they didn’t believe in their faith, in their God, in themselves.
1
trump is a constant liar and violator of most of the other 10 Commandments. He is vile and corrupt. That so-called Christians have embraced him in a "Constantinian" arrangement is nothing to their credit. They are forever tarred as hypocrites, self-serving would-be dominators of women and children in our society. If they can't win over devotees to their "religion" based on their ideas, their using government power to force women to bear children, and dumb down our schools is showing them to be not worthy of joining.
The ever-so-popular "prosperity gospel" is an abomination in the religion of a Jesus Christ who healed the sick and welcomed the poor and shunned. I imagine the money lenders in the temple whom Jesus threw out would have loved the prosperity gospel, too. So just what is it that gives these neo-Christians a claim to sanctity? They oppose abortion, rather more to keep women in their place than to protect "innocent life". The innocent life in cages at the border demonstrates this more than anything.
Christians affiliating with the Republicans has harmed both groups. Both groups are shown to be amoral opportunists seeking power over others.
4
Conservative christians have weaponized their religion and use it to push their morality on the masses. They voted for an amoral, adulterous man-child. How can we have any respect for that type of religion?
14
Nice white washing
They’re all functionally the same: racist
The gop is not a religious party
Yes some members are religious
But the main function is money to the rich and racism
If you’re religious and vote for racism then you’re just racist
5
@Concerned
Agreed. If voting for a racist doesn't make you racist, I don't know what would.
1
The sooner the Republicans (and Ross Douthat) stop trying to turn the US into a theological state, stop being obsessed with religion, the better off we will all be. Them too.
Smart people all over, including Americans, are losing interest in your mythology, fast.
5
@David Appell The theocracy libel was used against George Bush and the Jews. A little late.
1
There is no such thing as a Christian who supports Trump. Either you follow Jesus who taught that the devil is a liar and the father of lies (John 8:44), or you support Trump. It is not possible to be both.
Trump supporters who call themselves Christian have sold their souls for judges and their own bigotry masquerading as religious freedom.
6
@Valerie Everton Dixon
"There is no such thing as a Christian who supports Trump."
Surprised this made it through the sensors. Would an equally irrational comment like, "The earth is flat", have made it?
Most of the American Evangelical movement sold out all credibility first in the election and now in it's continuing support of Trump. Atheism is a quite corner from which to watch the self righteous profane themselves.
When one takes into account all the atrocities that have been committed by "Christians" on each other, Jews, Muslims, Africans, Native Americans, Chinese, Indians, and all the Pacific peoples, I can't see why anyone would want to be called a Christian.
I have heard that "Islam is the religion of the sword" many times. Apparently these people have never read a history of Christian European conquest and what was done to those considered to be savages because they were not believers in that invisible extraterrestrial deity that is supposed to be floating around out there space watching every move we make and every thought we have.
Frankly, if someone called me a Christian I would take it as an insult. Religion is nothing more than mythology run amok.
6
Some Trump supporters lack higher education, aren't particularly religious and don't like non-whites. Well, who does that make you think of? His royal self, no? His "education" resembles little of what the Western tradition consists of; does the President ever read a book for pleasure, can he express himself coherently? His version of Christianity is unrecognizable. Finally, he's a racist. So part of his core base is a mirror image of Trump. It's a swamp of narcissists.
1
3 words Southern Baptist Convention the most powerful political organization in the country pretending to be a religion with a Civil War shaped chip on their shoulder.
4
As always, Ross starts his sermon with a false premise..."Conservative Christians...".
What are these people that identify themselves as Conservative Christians? Because they have proven themselves to be neither.
A person who voices outrage about the baking of a cake, but says nothing as children are imprisoned without cause on our borders...is not Christian.
And no Conservative goes along with the "herd", just because.
Ross, call them what they are...Racist Bigots who have willingly joined a cult of ignorance.
Only the last book of the Bible seems to reference these "conservative christians". Could the mark of the beast be their vote cast for the Red Dragon, little donald?
4
@Fred Armstrong I thought Obama taught us that Muslims that do bad things are not Muslims. Apparently that idea is applied very selectively. Sounds like treating people differently based upon their religion to me.
"Lip Service Faith" allows you to do anything you choose and blame it on Jesus.
1
What Mr. Douthat overlooks is that regular churchgoers might simply be lying to those who conducted the poll. After all, what is more tribal than church? There is at least one conservative Christian denomination in which members are taught that everyone outside their denomination --other Christians included--is going to hell. So let's not be too quick to congratulate conservative Christians on their tolerance and good will toward their fellow human beings. It could be that the Trump campaign simply did a great job convincing voters that Hillary Clinton was the Antichrist. Helped by a big dose of patriarchal worldview, they went into the voting booth and pulled the lever for Trump, though they knew on an intellectual level that he was not one of them. Two Corinthians walk into a bar.
2
Mr. Douthat, you seem to have great faith in the power of religion to call to people's better angels, and I hope you're right. But you may want to consider the possibility that the more religious people who took this survey said what they think God wanted to hear rather than what they really believed (lol--as if you could fool the Almighty). At the end of the day, if you can vote for and continue to support a candidate who called Mexicans rapists, trash talked a Muslim Gold Star family, and labeled African countries with an adjective that means excrement, then obviously you aren't all that offended by racism.
Going to church makes you no more Christian than singing the national anthem makes you more American.
10
Stormy Daniels acknowledges exactly who and what she is. Which means she has way more integrity than Donny Trump and any Christian Evangelical that supports him.
When your political leader says:
"What you're seeing and hearing is not what's happening"
And when his mouthpiece says: " There is no such thing as truth".
YOU ARE NOT IN A POLITICAL PARTY.......... YOU'RE IN A CULT!
11
What a waste of words. No Christians voted for Donald Trump.
6
Leave it to Father Douthat to craft an argument that suggests a cause and effect relationship between being a church goer and being just slightly less crazy than other Trumpsters.
Maybe church-going Trump supporters are slightly kinder, or less racist than their non-church-going white supremacist deplorable counterparts.
But being slightly less deplorable is hardly a shining endorsement of the effects of religion on the brain.
6
@barking what he is saying at the core is worse than that, church-goers accepted the Faustian bargain of voting for a man they generally knew was terrible in the interests of their organized religion. Presumably they stick with him for the same reason.
That’s the thing about religion / cults etc., they have a tendency (well established historically) to get otherwise reasonable people to do terrible things.
Trying to parse the differences between secular ‘Trumpists’ and religious ones doesn’t matter much. If you’re willing to give up everything you claim to stand for in self-interest (in this instance, ones religious beliefs) then you are no different a demographic than any others ‘deplorable.’
It’s almost 2019, when people tell me they strongly believe in <organized religion> it’s equivalent in my mind to them telling me they believe in the tooth fairy. I look forward to one day never having to hear about their impact in western elections again. Guess I’m an optimist.
1
I shall await the apology from the
Elitists/Liberals and New York Times Editorial Board
for all the insults they threw at the religious
who are not "Racists" but did vote for Trump.
4
So, 71%’of white Christian weekly churchgoers have “warm feelings” towards Jews? To whom do I send the gefilte fish as a reward for such warmth?
6
Good lord: “authoritarian and tribal on race and identity”. Why, why, why won’t you save ink and say “racist” or “tinged with white supremacy”?
3
Trump is a racist plain and simple. No getting around it. Racism is hardly immune to religious organizations. Never has been, never will be. Of course not all self proclaimed Christians are racists but to believe that they might be less so than the non religious is absurd at best. If one supports Trump then by proxy they support racism. They are no better or different than their counterparts. They can not have their cake and eat it to.
3
Meh you reap what you sow.
1
My fellow Christians who support Trump because they think he will protect us demonstrate their lack of faith. Jesus told us that His church will survive all onslaughts, that the “gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” He nowhere hinted that was contingent upon secular protection. To the contrary, God repeatedly told warned His people in the Old Testament NOT to rely on other earthly powers for protection from outside threats, but to trust in Him alone. Trump’s supposed protection is therefore no reason to support him.
Indeed, supporting him does us far more harm than good. Supporting him implicitly ratifies his distinctly unchristian example (arrogance, lying, inability to control his speech, lack of self-control, lack of openness to correction) and his distinctly unchristian policies (persecuting aliens, enabling those who prey upon the economically weak). Aligning ourselves with those anti-Christian things devastates our witness.
211
@Anon I agree. I challenge anyone’s faith whenever I can. Not really. Of course, if I did I would be a social pariah and have no friends.
1
@Anon
On the contrary, supporting Trump means supporting the rights of all Christians' expression of and adherence to their religious beliefs.
These nonsensical interpretations of what it means to be a Christian are so tedious both for their ignorance of Christianity as well as the steps the Trump Administration has taken to protect Christians' rights.
I suggest all those who actually believe "real" Christians could never support Trump expand their understanding of both.
Why the long faces? Jeffress, Graham Jr, and Falwell Jr still get to have breakfast at The White House.
5
Yeah no kidding. Congratulations you figured out what the rest of us knew from day one. Racist like Trump. He is a racist. He always was a racist. Also yeah most of knew religious people are hypocrites, especially evangelicals. You may not have to be a racist to be a Trump supporter but that is who you are teaming up with. If you are still clinging to the republican party then that is what you are teaming up with.
4
Hypocritical windbags vs. venal windbags. Do. Not. Care. Vote them all out, and their little dogs too.
4
As a gay Mexican, it's hard for me to feel anything but contempt for white evangelical christian conservatives. Their demise is my salvation. If they ever bothered to care about people like me, maybe they wouldn't be in the desperate situation they're in today, kissing Trump's stinking feet.
9
@Tony in LA
Being gay doesn't exempt anyone from being a religious bigot.
1
Heathens all ... and heathenish ...
1
"Two Corinthians." Hang your head in shame if you believe any of the rest of us should tolerate your shibboleths, insist religion belongs in the public square because of its integrity, if you voted for this man after he said that.
3
IMHO the "Christian" voters for Trump are just a part of the Republican Frankenstein monster coalition that Republicans have stitched together from single wedge issue voters.
1
An entire column on religion and voting trends and Trump supporters, yet the words "abortion" and "Supreme Court" are not mentioned once.
Funny methodology the Cato Institute uses in its surveys.
6
I am tempted to go off on a research tangent to prove or disprove Ross Douthat's claim that among the irreligious, there are fewer college degrees. He likely means among irreligious white Christian conservatives, there are fewer college degrees, but once a writer or analyst starts splitting and already split demographic, it is easy to end up with a very limited sample to begin with. And, there are colleges and there are colleges. Among a right wing, "conservative," Christian demographic, one might expect to find college graduates who graduated from colleges where Christ's "Sermon on the Mount" type teachings might not be standards fare: Bob Jones University comes to mind. Divide and conquer....not so good for any of us.
1
How can anyone truly believe in Christianity? I mean really, man was made in "God's image"? How arrogant is that? We are merely mammals, temporarily on top of the food chain (or are the microbes?) - unable to comprehend the wonders of the universe. Religions are just cultural stories to explain the inexplicable. Yes they provide comfort. I get that. But they don't provide answers. And so many of them are used for the wrong reasons. And most, if not all, of them are patriarchal.
3
To the contrary, secular liberals fervently hope for the total “de-Christianization” of this Administration’s discriminatory and unconstitutional creeping policies establishing a state religion. Soon enough, on the heels of the Mueller Investigation, Trump and his totally compromised band of evangelical hypocrites will be gone. He removed from office, quite possibly jailed, and them stripped of any political/societal influence or power. The angst expressed in this column over the future Trump Republican Party will be irrelevant and meaningless. That party will forever cease to exist.
3
What Mr. Douthat describes essentially, stripped to its unattractive but undeniable truth is this:
The majority of the Republican Party now fits into his non-religious demographic: The people in that majority are society's losers, who, because they are losers in all ways, strike out at anything and everything with xenophobic hatreds confirmed by their ignorance, fears and biases.
Good luck with that formula for maintaining a political party.
The Republican Party is going out of business. It's an ugly thing to watch, but that's the truth of it. It's disintegration will produce a new political alignment that is probably going to take us from a nation that is right of center to one that is left of center.
It's a messy, messy, ugly failure and Trump has accelerated it by at least a decade. The people at his rallies? They are the constituency Douthat describes as the non-religious or irreligious in the Republican Party.
They have no political future and no future political home and they will disappear as a political force after Trump.
3
Trump is the epitome of a person whose religion is self-worship, but he has delivered promises to the Christian Right.
He has given them Justice picks likely to support the curtailing of abortion rights; likely to define religious freedom as the freedom to cut into other people's rights while pursuing the right to act in one;s faith. That includes supporting cake bakers, and people who will not hand out legal wedding licenses, and people who choose to deny their workers access to birth control because of personal belief not necessarily held by the affected employee.
He has given them Jeff Sessions of the Religious Liberty Taskforce, and Betsy DeVos and her desire to fund private religious schools.
So the people who are voting for Trump are getting what they bargained for. I am reminded of the stories of Jesus going out into the desert and finding Satan tempting him, offering him all that he could ever want, all he had to do was agree to follow Satan. Jesus rebuffed temptation; the Christian Right bought it hook line and sinker. They got what they wanted, but they have to follow the devil to do so.
3
Ross, if you think that attending church is equivalent to considering oneself a Christian, think again. Nearly every Trump fan I have known--and in Oklahoma, that's plenty--not only think that he or she is Christian, but that Trump fans are the ONLY Christians in America, and are under constant attack, and that Trump is God's answer to all our problems. They may drink like fish, curse like sailors, and otherwise break commandments with abandon. They may embody the seven deadly sins, and not darken the door of a church but for funerals. They may, in short, be a lot like Trump. But they still believe they are Christians, and that this means they hate Obama, democrats, and the laundry list of other "enemies" they have been thoughtfully provided with on the right for a couple of generations now. They are not rational, surely you have noticed, and church attendance doesn't correlate with "religion" for them, and shouldn't for you. You're ignoring the truth that is before you in an effort to absolve your religion of the responsibility it so greatly bears in our current disorder. Or I should say the perversion of religion, for like you, I don't think they are really Christians, either. But don't tell them that if you value your teeth.
15
Fascinating analysis.
Secular urbanists like myself want to build cities that cultivate community by making streets and neighborhoods that are friendly to people who choose not to drive. The automobile and suburbs are toxic to community and we want to make city less anonymous at the small scale.
3
A single survey poll not withstanding, Mr. Douthat asserts so many unsubstantiated claims about the social and political beliefs and motivations of religious evangelical conservatives and non-religious—think secular—conservatives, that it is difficult to find his central thesis.
If there is one, it seems that he is claiming that whether secular or religious, conservatives who voted for and support Trump for transactional—machievellian—motivations do so at their peril. Their Faustian bargain trades short term hopes for repeal of Roe v. Wade and Obamacare against the long term consequence of being known as the electoral demographic group that elected Trump. This stain may take a generation to wash clean.
2
It looks to me like there is some hope in this data. There is a divide in the Trump supporters. Trump was not what the religious right wanted, but they made a bargain to accept him. Alt-right supporters are enthusiastic supporters. They love Trump and they have nowhere else to turn.
If Trump is going to be removed from office we need to find a way to cleve these two halves of his support. Turn the religious voters by appealing to their values, and pointing out that they’ve made a Faustian bargain.
4
Ross, when you say, "Secularized Trump voters" I am not certain you are using that term consistently within the religious vs. non-religious views.
It appears from your writing that the, "The Secularized Trump voters" are simply people who no longer go to church but would certainly say that they are Christian (their actions aside).
I would find it difficult to believe that these secular voters are identifying as atheist or not religious at all - which is what my understanding of the term, secular, to mean in common day parlance.
The growing % of Americans claiming to be non-religious and or atheist is approaching 30%. It is my understanding that the VAST majority of these folks are democratic supporters and libertarians and do not identify as republican.
3
I think what Ross is saying is that there is a difference between people who merely identify as Christians (Seculars or Nonreligious) and people who are religious because they are going to church regularly (Religious or Non-seculars). And this is perfectly plausible. The people who go to church have internalized the Gospel’s requirement to love others and care for the stranger. They don’t exhibit racism, prejudice, and hatred of immigrants because that is manifestly NOT what Jesus would do. They voted for Trump, not out of hate, resentment, or anger, but because they expected him to roll back some of the policies—such as abortion, women’s rights and gay rights—that they see as contrary to their understanding of what the scripture says is a godly society.
The group that doesn’t go to church adopts Christianity as part of its identity. They see the world as Christian or Not Christian. They wanted a person like Trump who would defend people in the “Christian club” against people who are not in the “Christian club.” They know a few verses of the Bible, but they’re generally not interested in the philosophical underpinnings or the social consequences of the Bible.
The interesting question is whether, once the religious group gets its way, whether it will begin to see how great the gap between Republican economic policy and the Gospel really is.
Christianity, begun as part of a revolutionary movement in a small part of the Roman Empire, had become rigidly dogmatic before Constantine, and an imperious one once it was made the official religion of the Roman Empire.
A more interesting question for a believer, such as Mr. Douthat, might be what is the future of Christianity without "conservatism?" Is there room for the "Social Gospel" is a Christianity that is doctrinally conservative, but economically and socially liberating, possible?
Somehow, Mr. Douthat seemingly is more concerned with his conservatism than his Christianity. Perhaps he can clarify which word is the noun and which is the adjective when he administers his dose of CCs. Do conservatives use Christianity (or any other Scripture-based religion) as a prop for their views on the world, or are such religions the basis for conservative views? H. Richard Niebuhr raised issues of this sort in "Christ and Culture," an essential book for anyone with serious interest in either.
He might also see if data exist that indicate the racial views of churches with predominately "black" congregations. The more segregated the denomination, the less presumably, will be the acceptance of "the other." Mr. Douthat's interesting take on the earnestness of the parishioners' religious affiliations, at least to the extent that church attendance is an accurate marker, and their greater tolerance of other races, and possibly religions, is a good start.
3
Almost by definition, evangelicals and conservatives are followers of authority.
If they are told it is in the bible or was said by the Founding Fathers, that is the end of the conversation.
Of course the Founding Fathers had slavery and women did not have equal rights.
And the bible had slavery and polygamy. And they stoned a woman to death for adultery. Funny they never stoned a man to death for adultery.
Not only was the bible written by man, it was written by men.
3
There's never been much doubt that Christianty always mattered less to Donald Trump and his appeal to the masses than being white.
In fact, it was the 'Church of Whitenss' that got him elected.
Think not?
Look at the faces at his rallies and where he tends to hold them -- there's rarely a person of colour in sight.
I'd even go on to say that Trump's appeal to Christianity only stretches as far as that of the Ku Klux Klan's, who see themselves as saviours of the white race and burn crosses to prove it.
Mr. Douthat may think that there's some kind of "divide" between those who pride themselves on their race and those who use religion as an excuse to support of the racism of this president, but in reality there is no difference, and no divide at all.
4
Basically all this says is that Trump supporters voted for him either because they are conservative Christians or racists, or both. Attempting to connect de-Christianization to the downfall of American democracy is a spurious correlation at best.
Our society (ie, our democracy) is crumbling because Republican politicians and their corporate donors have been chipping away at it for 40 years.
Republicans have created several generations of brain-washed, uneducated, desperate American souls by stealing taxpayer money from public schools and social services, by reducing employment benefits and social services, by eliminating unions...to name only a fraction of what Republican have done to destroy America's democracy -- all of this so that they can give tax cuts to their billionaire donors and inject money into billionaire contract companies that profit from government/ military operations without oversight or regulation.
4
Ross loves words like “church-going” and “Christian”, and here wishes to dress up the “better” Trump supporters with these adjectives. Expediency is no excuse regardless of the costumes.
8
Blocks of populations who ground their worldview upon indefensible belief and unsupportable nonsense (eg christians) be it secular or religious have been easily exploitable throughout history by those such as trump, Constantine, the kaleidoscopic array of holy men, dictators, supreme leaders, tv preachers. So what else is new.
3
If only Douthat had resisted the absolutely fatal habit of the neo-philosophes of American Conservatism (which bears no relation to any other), of arguing as if perception simply boils down to surviving a fastidious walk through its archly fixed taxonomies, this particular essay would have had more than raw accident in favor of its undoubted excellence. But this is also its limitation. Whose de-Christianization (huzzah, a new trope) is he discussing, one may only wonder; and what, therefore, can all this possibly mean, with the status of our Lord not heretofore known to depend upon the Republican Party?
Very interesting piece. But the CATO findings could be subject to further analysis. Do the religious conservatives consist of those who belong to main-line protestant churches and Catholics? Or do many belong to more primitive congregations, such as evangelicals. I suspect the former would be more tolerant of other faiths, races, and religions.
In general, the decline of religion is a bad thing, because it causes people to put their faith in other cultural authorities: science, sects like scientology,or charismatic leaders like Trump, Mussolini, Hitler.
It would be good if people would return to mainline religions, whether Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Muslim. They and the country would be less likely to succumb to the appeal of sects or charismatic leaders.
1
These so called religious conservatives made a deal with the devil when they decided to vote for Trump. Even as more evidence of his immorality and corruption comes out it amazes, and disturbs, me that they continue to support him. Their distinction between his policies and his behavior/values is a false one. Eventually, some of them will come to realize this. Will that disaffection turn the tide in the upcoming midterm election? Or by 2020....assuming Trump is still in office?
3
The comments here show that liberal readers despise Christians and despise their beliefs.
So it is not surprising that Christians won't vote for a party that treats them with scorn and contempt. They know where they are not welcome.
2
@Jonathan
Yes, it's particularly distasteful to be lectured to by such ignorantly formed -- and quite perverse -- viewpoints on Christianity. It's helpful, however, to see how anti-religious fervor manifests itself, but it's not really useful in a meaningful debate.
3
The Evangelical Christian Leadership's embrace of Trump indicates that they have little faith in the religion or the deities they profess to follow. They don't trust the Divine's will since it appears to be different from what they think it should be. Therefore, as they know better than the deity they pretend to adore, they will lavish their support on an amoral serial adulterer, thief, liar, bully, and all around bad guy, because he will give them the tools they need to fix the world the way they think it should be fixed, and fix their deity's incompetent laxness.
Their lame justification, to hate the sin but not the sinner, can be better expressed as, "It doesn't matter that the actions of your life in no way bear witness to the power or even the existence of the Divine, as long as you give us what we want."
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@Jesse Silver
Agreed. Douthat cites a Cato study of church goers, ranked by how often they go to church. If Douthat will read his Bible he will find that such people who support evil such as Trump and his policies and dishonesties are frequently condemned. These whitened sepulchers are not Christians, according to the Bible. Jesus, (besides other strong words) promises to, when they come to judgment, say "I Never Knew You!"
@Jesse Silver Proof that it is all about power over others and nothing about meekness and humility.
Conservatism after Christianity? Selfishness. That's all that's left.
4
What is the point of becoming a christian in Trump era? Support theft, epic corruption, deception and possibly treason to get some laws that prevent abortion, and by doing so, force people into illegal abortion?
Is that worth it? If God was truly out there, he/she would not condone that kind of devil’s bargain.
3
And Clinton voters are less likely to be racist, sexist and homophobic than Trump voters (even the religious ones.)
Religion doesn't seem to be nearly the bulwark against bigotry that liberal/progressivism is.
6
Hey Ross:
I’m no Jesus freak but there is some very heavy teachings in the New Testament based on what Jesus taught the disciples.
Apropos to your column are a few verses from Ephesians 6, 10-12:
10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.
11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
“Evangelicals” who support Trumpo don’t know Jesus but He certainly knows them.
3
The teachings of Jesus Christ bear no resemblance to the Republican Party. A true Christian would speak out against an Anti-Christ like Trump.
7
@Art Ambient
Well said. "Republican Christian Conservative" would appear to be an oxymoron.
Of all religions, the Christian should of course inspire the most tolerance, but until now Christians have been the most intolerant of all men.
- Voltaire
4
Jesus Christ was a left-wing socialist liberal progressive community civil human rights organizing trouble making active resistance law breaker. Whose most beloved followers were the poor, the imprisoned, the sick, the hungry, the thirsty, the depressed and the despairing. Jesus was not an American nor a conservative nor a Republican nor a conservative nor a capitalist. See Matthew 25 : 31-46
Conservativism before and after Christianity was primarly based upon black African enslavement and separate and unequal black African Jim Crow. The Confederate States of America, the Ku Klux Klan, the White Citizens Councils, the Tea Party and the white evangelicals are the base of the Newt Gingrich, Rudy Giuliani, Ronald Reagan, John McCain and Donald Trump Republican Party and they are the prime iconic examples of conservative "Christianity" and " Christians".
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@Blackmamba
Important to point out the continuing hypocrisy with followers of those prominent Republicans you named. Newt Gingrich on his third marriage with adultery involved, Rudy Giuliani likewise, but on his fourth divorce, Ronald Reagan divorced after adultery and remarried, John McCain divorced after his wife was disfigured in an automobile accident and remarried, and then there is DJ Trump with three marriages, multiple affairs plus all the business cheating. What's not to like and admire? These are the types Jesus spoke against and threw out of the Temple!
@Blackmamba The Republican Party founded to end slavery. The Democrat Party was the party of the Confederacy and ran a Presidential candidate in 1864 to end the Civil War and keep the South unoccupied and slavery legal.
2
@Blackmamba
Your jeremiad is at best full of half truths. You seem to ignore the "give to Caesar what is Caesar's" and "I came to set son against father brother against brother " and "do not give what is holy to dogs" and many other problematic things Christ said that are extremely problematic for the Jesus as gentle meek liberal theory.
1
Americans of religious faith should remember that they live in a nation founded on principles of the Enlightenment, reinforced by separation of church and state. If they don't like the culture, there are plenty of other places that enforce religious values on the people who live there, and those places don't look to be pleasant. Object lessons abound.
I'm frustrated by people who claim to be piously American, yet who have never read any of the foundational writings that led to the Constitution. In particular, Thomas Jefferson lays out careful reasoning for keeping religion out of government, in his 'Query XVIII, from Notes on the State of Virginia".
Hypocrites, the lot of them.
Let me try to get this straight.
All the poor, uneducated American folk suffering from cultural and economic disruption and anxiety, who voted for Trump, are nasty, angry populists. Low class.
But a new poll funded by the Cato Institute, which is funded by the Koch Brothers, has established that steady well-dressed churchgoers aren’t racists. They’re not dirty low-class stupid populists. They’re really nice and they kinda like black people and might welcome a few immigrants. (Though they may not welcome homosexuals or women who have sex. Oh well.) Maybe these steady churchgoers voted for Trump, but they had doubts. Elegant doubts.
Great.
Mr. Douthat assures us that “in general, churchgoing Republicans look more like the party many elite conservatives wanted to believe existed before Trump came along ... “
Hey, that’s heartening! So all the people who attend church, and have money, and aren’t suffering, and match the vision of “elite conservatives,” will save us.
Excuse me. They won’t.
Mr. Douthat, it’s time for you to go off on a retreat in the wilderness. Read the Sermon on the Mount again and again, please. Jesus teaches that those who are up will be down, and the downtrodden will be elevated and blessed. Then check out the story of the Good Samaritan (a humane immigrant, a foreigner).
And wake up.
5
The hypocrisy and calculations displayed by so many Christians in choosing Trump over Clinton, despite his myriad moral failings, is yet another factor in leading people to abandon organized religion. You can’t rail against Bill Clinton and proclaim yourself the party of family values and then throw your principles by the wayside to vote for a completely amoral person. That’s called selling your soul to the devil and it’s not a great way to advance your cause.
1
White Trump Supporters who consider their white racial identity are not "tribal," they are racist.
"the more religious part of the G.O.P. is still the less Trumpist portion — meaning less populist on economics, but also less authoritarian and tribal on race and identity."
Really lame softening of reality here.
Ross, you have been most creative today with your sad commentary on the “secularization of conservatism.” When was conservatism not secular? You seem to have discovered that many conservative evangelicals have given Mr. Trump an endless string of Mulligans no matter the issue, and now you’re having doubts. Keep in mind the observation of Amanda Hocking, “If you dance with the devil, the devil doesn’t change, he changes you.”
Ergo, conservative Christians should vote for center-leaning Democrats. They'll get their fiscal conservatism and reasonable judges, and most of them can live with gay rights. What they'll avoid is white nationalism and nihilistic norm destruction. A no brainer.
Oddly, Ross places much store in surveys, even after Hill got beaten like a step child while leading handily in surveys.
His conclusion could easily be that self identified church attending Trump voters who answers surveys might be:
A. less bigoted
B. more of a liar
C. more or less churchgoing
D. an agnostic having fun
E. bored
Ross has way overthought this survey.
Voters, as usual, are going to vote their bias, not their interest.
Dems need to work hard on stirring up bias in the MAJORITY, not the minority.
After that, then they can do the right thing.
Douthat's anxiety is selective. Trump stokes racism against blacks and Jews. It's wrong and practicing Christian conservatives are less racist than secular ones. But when Trump teaches racism against Muslims, Douthat says that's sort of okay. This is the conservative problem....all that racism and hate. In the past, smooth talkers talked the code and said which groups it was okay to go after. Trump is loud and all at once. Trump is the real one. Douthat needs to drop his acceptance of bigotry or bow to the King.
So called Evangelical "Christians" and their support of #45 because of his anti-abortion stance are hilarious in their hypocrisy. They can't for one minute believe that, if Trump got someone pregnant and it was inconvenient, that he wouldn't have coerced her into an abortion? How many of his flings has he sent to an abortion clinic?
"the more religious part of the G.O.P. is still the less Trumpist portion — meaning less populist on economics, but also less authoritarian and tribal on race and identity."
Umm, last I checked the evangelicals had about 99.9% approval for the racist rapist whereas the Joe Schmoes have stopped paying attention entirely.
At some point you'll have to explain why the churched continue to idolize, to a degree that would make Kim Jong Un blush, a man utterly devoid of virtue whose personality and policies they are purported to abhor.
1
It seems to be that Christians, or more accurately conservative Christians, have such disdain or fear towards LGBT and abortionists that they are willing to throw the rest of their lives away to fight these two.
They support politicians who are willing to let corporations who care only about making profit to poison their air, water and land, cheat veterans out of legitimate education, feed their children junk in schools, dupe them into eating junk themselves that make them sick then medicate them with pills that make them sicker...
Most of all, the conservative Christians abhor LGBT and abortionists so much that they support a party that knows only deceit and dishonor and a president that knows only selfishness and vengeance. So in the name of preserving their religious liberty and presumably their religion, they give up their God of love and embrace the God of hatred. And they wonder why their churches are emptying.
I had to laugh, just for a moment, on reading this sentence referring to Trump:
"...his Caligulan personal life and racial demagoguery."
Okay, a show of hands now: how many people know what Caligulan means? What percentage would anyone guess in regard to Trump supporters, religious or otherwise, know the meaning? If you don't know, go back to the orgy and forget about it. It's too late to learn.
Jes kidding.
Of course, politics makes strange bedfellows, as the saying goes, by why did America's Christian right decide to get in bed with a guy who had lice growing on every part of his body (in a Christian, metaphorical sense)?
Franklin Graham, son of Billy, was quoted this week trying to answer that question. It amounted to, well, you know, everyone is flawed. Hey, Franklin, not everyone has puss seeping sores on their skin (in a Christian metaphorical sense) despite their flaws.
Graham's excuse making amounted to saying, "If we get what we want, we don't care who we get it from." Gee, that's nice, since you and your cohorts have attacked every Democrat running for president as morally unfit for the office, in one way or another. When it is your guy, more fitness does not come into play. What does? If Trump stumbles us into a nuclear war killing millions of people, no problem as long as we can stop abortions?
If I sound a bit confused about all of this, no surprise. I thought religious leaders were supposed to follow religious teachings and principles. Naive, again.
4
CORRECTING:
"When it is your guy, more fitness does not come into play." Of course, this should read "moral fitness does not come into play."
The brain commands and sometimes the fingers follow.
Constatinian bet. What malarkey when applied to these Know-Nothings.
Look, Ross, you try to lend some dignity or intellectual heft to this situation and you merely end up looking foolish yourself. Deficit hawks who supported a trillion dollor deficit aren't deficit hawks. Christians who support Trump aren't Christian. Conservatives who support bomb-throwers aren't conservative. The fact is, they have no principles and no ideas whatever. You're just kidding yourself with this Constantian stuff.
3
It seems as though Ross's thesis here is as follows: Democrats, you had better encourage Christianity, because the Republican party (one of only two parties in the US and therefore representative of +/- half of the power in the US) without Christianity is going to look like Trump and his revolting voters. Jesus rules! More Christianity please--or else!
2
I am perplexed about the point of Douthat's column. So, Trump voters who attend church hate people of color less than their brethren Trumpers who hate people of color more. Apparently, liberal secularists like myself should be grabbing their rosary beads and heading to the nearest church this morning because the apocalypse of the de-Christianization of America is upon us.
The churchgoers want to abolish Roe v Wade. They want business owners to be legally able to deny the LGBT community goods and services. They want to disband Planned Parenthood. They believe marriage can only be between a man and a woman. They believe they are under assault by godless liberals whom they believe want to destroy values they hold dear. I question the values of churchgoers who support a president who is an unindicted co-conspirator, a pathological liar, aligns himself with our foreign enemies and has admitted to engaging in sexual predation of women.
If the de-Christianization of America means that all of the above will cease to exist, bring it on. I do not want a return to the dark ages or to some mythical virtuous past that existed only in storybooks.
Mr. Douthat: What, exactly, do your fear will be lost?
1
Must there be an "after"?
Both are illegitimate concepts that should be dead, nothing more than distant, distasteful, dark memories.
The Republican Party made a deal with far-right Christians decades ago. What the party needed was votes and that deal gave them the votes they needed. For those same decades, the GOP held the most right-wing elements of their Christian base off; giving only lip service to their demands.
When Donald Trump came along, the far-right Christians saw their opportunity to make a deal. Who better to push their most extreme views than a loud, outrageous bully? No longer can the GOP hold back this extremism as it is now an integral portion of the party.
Conservatism after Christianity will either have to move into the 21st century in its core beliefs about the role of government, not a government-Christian coalition, in the lives of our citizens; or become a minor ideology whose members want to continue to weaponize their religious beliefs on the rest of us.
We are know from social science that people when asked about things that are supposed to make them appear virtuous will sell themselves as better than they are. There's an incentive to tell your doctor that you only drink one beer a day or always walk 20 minutes as recommended. There's an incentive to say that you attend church regularly if you feel guilty because you do not.
There's an incentive, if you believe yourself to be a faithful Christian who somewhat inflates your amount of church-going to be piously correct and claim you don't hate Jews or blacks or gays.
Yes, pious correctedness does exist as a phenomenon. It used to be acceptable to make slur jokes but now well bred people know they shouldn't. They are piously correct. One of the perverse aspects of Donald Trump is that he spouts the very politically incorrect things that many people are thinking but know they won't get away with saying. Many overt Trump supporters say they adore him because he "tells it like it is." It's possible that the covert Trumpeters are also thinking "way to go."
So I seriously mistrust a survey that is based on allowing subjects to guesstimate the number of times they go to church as the foundation for an argument that establishes their piety and also accepts it automatically when they piously claim that "some of their best friends are"--fill in the blank--black, gay or Jewish.
2
Why would Republicans move away from religion when it's been such a powerful tool for them to sow divisions and whip up voters?
1
Is anyone else sick of all the back and forth on religion? This is a secular government with codified separation of church and state. Believe what you want, leave me alone and stay away from the statehouse.
1
@Bailey
Unfortunately, the LGBT movement has led to an open hostility toward religious adherents. Fortunately, *all* their rights are being protected. As it should be.
1
As an atheist, I'm confident I have greater moral and ethical grounding, living a more "christian" life, than the so-called christians who support not just an amoral, but immoral, president.
2
Why should secular liberals worry about de-churching, when it removes one of the pillars of white racism from America? We'll still have plenty left, of course, but let us never forget that Southern Baptists split off to become their own denomination because they wanted to support slavery, and this history of racism traces down into pretty much every evangelical and fundamentalist church. People in those churches may not express overt racial animus, but they are still incredibly racist as a whole.
They're just the "God is colorblind, but loves some cultures more than others" kind of racist, the kind that supports racist policies while insisting that they are not personally racist.
American Christianity as a whole supported a would-be fascist dictator, and they are standing by silent and supportive as he takes this country ever further down that path. We are talking of stripping American citizens of their citizenship and have confiscated their passports for being Hispanic! We separated parents from their children for asking for asylum, and over 500 of those children are still in detention centers. The GOP is actively suppressing the vote across multiple states. The right is actively undermining democracy by attacking the media, propagating propaganda through Fox News and Breitbart, undercutting judicial independence, stirring racial animus, reducing women's rights, and inviting hostile foreign powers to attack political foes. This is their fault.
1
Republicans and religious conservatives can rationalize and deny all they want, but the bottom line is: they have lost their moral voice by supporting a degenerate like Donald Trump.
What rational person will listen to Trump apologists Jerry Falwell Jr. and Franklin Graham when in the future they pontificate on character and decency?
Not many, guys.
As they say in Mississippi: when you dance you gotta pay the fiddler. In this case the fiddler is one Donald J. Trump. Good luck with that.
1
My goodness Ross, what a treatise on identity politics. I submit that the distinctions you draw .. at the end of the day .. are meaningless. Why? because the so-called religious crowd and the secular crowd still all support a mendacious, morally bankrupt, kakistocratic con-artist .. many unapologetically so. In the aggregate, they re the plague of our time.
1
Both the religious and secular conservative groups share one defining characteristic-utter hypocrisy.
2
Mr. Douthat, trying to extricate the church going religious masses from their support of this despot? Better luck next time. They will have to carry this millstone for the rest of this generation.
1
The Republican church goers are "OK with blacks", but support the death penalty. Any effort at all on this topic would reveal the death penalty is unfairly applied to blacks versus whites. Obviousy church going Republicans either can't fathom this or are indifferent.
It does go a long way toward explaining their rejection of science on global warming, glee at dismantling laws that protect our environment and anger that black athletes are practicing their 1st amendment rights in a peaceful manner.
With a base like that, you should work on them, not secular liberals.
1
This is why the Democratic party must soul search their relationship with faith. Democrats must understand that faith life is more substantial than the rhetoric of the big tent and larger than single issue voters. The evidence in the survey suggest that both parties have much to gain by taking frequent church goers seriously. There is reason to believe that as environmental concerns loom larger and larger, evangelicals could be a strong ally in safeguarding creation.
1
The missing ingredient in your analysis, Ross, is the destruction that unfettered capitalism wreaks on families and communities. Job insecurity, rock-bottom wages, lack of healthcare, and a fear of an impoverished old age provoke sentiments of anger and rage. White identity politics are a vehicle for that anger and Trump tapped into it, without - of course - offering an antidote. His enablers in Congress are willing to bargain with the devil to save their own lucrative sinecures. You would do well to read the social teachings of the Catholic Church (your own church). There, the common good of society, and not winner-take-all greed, is the primary value.
188
@freethemoose The Roman Catholic Church is a part of the problem; you have to realize it for what it really is: a government of morality created to manipulate and control the behavior of a population, and to make them pay for the privilege of being so controlled. Think dispensations, or read The Canterbury Tales. Rome and Romans spread Christianity throughout the world without ever actually following its precepts. All churches work this way at both the macro and micro level.
I'm not sure why Douthat would link Tim Carney but not the Emily Ekins report upon which this opinion is primarily based. Douthat doesn't even provide a specific reference to the report. I understand opinion writing isn't the same as journalism but the omission is sloppy even when given low standards.
The accuracy of Mr. Ross' conclusions rely entirely on Ms. Ekins' methodology. If you gave me free range, I could write a statistically robust survey that proved nearly the opposite on every point. About the only points we'd agree upon are how many people are going to church and how many people voted for Trump. How you design a qualitative survey like this one is extremely important to the end result. That knowledge is noticeably missing from this interpretation.
For instance, there are apparently three qualifying questions in Douthat's survey reading. Did you vote for Trump? Are you Christian? How often do you go to church? I don't see how the respondent can unload any of these questions. These questions are extremely loaded. Even the order in which you ask the questions is going to alter the response. And that's before we consider the incredible diversity in Christian religious affiliation. An Evangelical is light years away from a Mormon but they are both considered "Christian."
I think I'll take a pass on amateur analysis on the intersection of religion and politics from someone with a filing deadline. Thanks but no thanks.
This is profoundly disingenuous. You pretend to be distressed that secular Conservatives, like Trump, are racist and aberrant, while Religious Conservatives, who would have preferred the repugnant Ted Cruz, aren't. In reality, the supposed differences between these two Republican factions are effectively nonexistent. You can twist and bend the numbers until they break, but they still add up to same thing: Religious Conservatives are totally complicit in everything terrible Trump does. Pretending that some sort of secular incursion has taken over the Republican Party is preposterous, especially as we've all been watching Religious Conservatives, not Secular Trumpists, force Brett Kavanaugh, who you described as a "vindication" of "abortion opponents", onto the Supreme Court.
Your own words establish that Republicans and Conservatives have never cared about social justice and were always fine with fomenting racism and inequality, as all they ever really cared about was establishing a Christian theocracy and taking away a woman's right to control her own body.
In your piece "After Kavanaugh, the Deluge," you wrote: "The Kavanaugh appointment brings us to a testing moment for the conservative legal movement’s political promise, delivered to social conservatives for years and decades now, that judges formed by its philosophy and principles would necessarily vote to overturn the post-1973 abortion regime...Without that promise the current Republican coalition would not exist."
2
How Obama-esque.
Why would anyone, other than a propagandist, conflate religion and politics ?
Religious conservatism has nothing whatsoever to do with political conservatism, the latter being a tendency to wish to preserve the state of the Constitution and structure of government rather than "evolve" them.
Obama, a lawyer trained in the exact use of the English language, often conflates motive, and intent - two entirely different concepts, as part of his effort to deceive and manipulate his following.
Douthat does the same.
1
I didn't see views about gays or women mentioned here. Douthat seems to think that the unacceptable intolerance of Trump supporters should be replaced by the unacceptable intolerance of the religious. No deal. The answer is progressive and liberal dominance, over all bigotry.
1
Let me see if I get this right:
A Christian conservative columnist cites a survey by a Christian conservative "think tank" to demonstrate that Christian conservatives are less bigoted than secular conservatives.
Yes, it's true those Christian conservatives detest gays & Muslims and uppity women, but they have warm--or last neutral feelings--about African-Americans & Hispanics. Or, so they say--though the populations of their churches seem to belie that.
Here's a piece of free advice: if you are not a conservative, Christian or otherwise, regard any conservative, Christian or otherwise, as somebody who never, ever has your interests at heart.
I find it amusing to see church attendance as the indicator used to imply one’s level of adherence to the Gospel. The landscape of American Christian worship is a vast desert of formulaic ritual devoid of any real spiritual commitment or joyful sacrifice.
American worship predominantly Is formed in the image of American consumerism, self indulgence, and entertainment value. The idol of affluence and individual self satisfaction is too strong a draw, God is left the scraps by most if pressed. AW Tozer aptly writes;
“The tragic results of this spirit are all about us: shallow loves, hollow religious philosophies, the preponderance of the element of fun in gospel meetings, the glorification of men, trust in religious externalities, quasi-religious fellowships, salesmanship methods, the mistaking of dynamic personality for the power of the Spirit. These and such as these are the symptoms of an evil disease, a deep and serious malady of the soul.” (The Pursuit of God, pp. 62-63)
Perhaps it is best to avoid this toxic “church going” altogether and instead source your own authentic Devine experience.
The notion that Trump is a racist is a canard manufactured by the progressive left and made easier to sell because of Trump's often mumble mouthed, semi articulate incoherence. Having said this, there is nothing in his past to indicate a scintilla of racism, and, indeed, much that proves the contrary both by way of the people with who he associated and the causes which he supported.
Having said this, the entire analysis of who and whither Conservatism is ultimately moot, even if it will take a generation or two to prove this conclusively. Demographically, liberals and progressives, i.e. the secular left, are self-doomed thanks to their negligible birthrate and their prioritization of causes that, regardless of their merit, are hardly conducive to creating new generations of liberals and progressives. If we subscribe to survival of the fittest, then clearly the fittest are religious conservatives who still believe in early marriage, having several children (if not more) abhorring abortions, finding little use for 63 gender classifications, do not major in useless subjects like gender studies and conflict resolution, and tend to do well in the workplace because, well, they have a work ethic. Hence it is only a question of time before all the burning issues on today's campuses, and the rantings and ravings of the increasingly unmoored progressive left die a natural death, with no one left to even write an epitaph.
1
Mr. Douthat nailed my thoughts on the Evangelical embrace of a man a step away from being a mobster.
If there is one thing that turns young people off, it's hypocrisy. Evangelical leaders have shown themselves to be the most hypocritical group in the country. They've sold their movement for a supreme court justice.
I'm not sure why secular liberals should fear the information in this survey, though. If a debased religion shrinks, it will give people one less reason to vote for Don the Con.
Remember: 50% of US citizens are below average IQ. The people that write propaganda try to persuade people that read propaganda. I sure hope they are voting the right way. I sure hope they aren't mislead by lies couched as facts in state and federal races. Hot button issues, like increasing the number of abortions by criminalizing women's reproductive health care, or having to pay any taxes at all while still expecting Medicaid and Medicare to cover them. They need another hero. They will follow. Where you lead them is more problematic. Better make it simple, because reality has a liberal bias, e.g., reality is longer than a slogan or a biblical edict.
I doubt the secularists accept blame for some Christians being awful people. It’s enough of a stretch to blame secularists for the sins of other secularists but now they are to blame for the faults of their opposition too? This is in the same line as blaming democrats for Republicans supporting Trump and Obama for a resurgence of public ally displayed white supremacy groups. Why can’t conservatives come to grips with the socially destructive aspects of conservatives? Why are you trying to blame people who oppose them in every way possible?
Ross,
Once again you've convoluted Christian with conservative.
What is Christian about separating families, persecuting "dreamers", denigrating the poor, racism, sexism, the glorification of wealth, ongoing attempts to deny basic healthcare to people whether due to poverty, or the bad fortune to have a chronic illness, or the incredible hubris of raising one religious tradition above all others?
I am a dual citizen of America and France and I think for almost every Western nation politics has become a religion. This was first seen during the French Revolution and seems more and more the case today. This should frighten us considering the totalitarian statism of Fascism and Communism aimed to supplant religion.
1
Sorry, God will not save us from Trump. Indeed, as a non-existent being with no will of his own, God throughout history has proved especially vulnerable to becoming an unwitting accessory to war, murder, mayhem, racism, sexism, homophobia, and every other imaginable human hatred. Best to leave God out of politics entirely. He so little knows how to choose sides that the wrong sides, the malevolent ones, invariably choose him.
Once American christians stop trying to enact anti-abortion laws they would be wecomed among liberals. Remember, no one is trying to force them, or even encourage, to do abortion, no one.
With christians we all would concentrate on how to make this country a better place to live for everyone. Christians could prove themselves as truly compasionate people, not just by supporting charitable activities, which we all know are grossly inadequate to solve poverty, but support policies that make the country economically more fair.
I've always felt this theory explains the fundamental differences between conservatives and liberals better than religion:
Moral Politics: How Liberals and Conservatives Think is a 1996 book by cognitive linguist George Lakoff. It argues that conservatives and liberals hold two different conceptual models of morality. Conservatives have a strict father model in which people are made good through self-discipline and hard work, everyone is taken care of by taking care of themselves. Liberals have a nurturant parent model in which everyone is taken care of by helping each other.
The more Christianity seeks political power, the more thoroughly it loses its soul.
The Catholic Church corrupted itself long ago in this manner; American Evangelicals are doing the same today, whether they attend church or not, by turning their backs on Christ's teachings and selling their faith to Donald Trump and the Reactionary Church of Banned Abortion, Bigotry, and Greed.
Secularism, liberalism - these pose no threat to Christian religious freedom. That's just a bogus meme pushed by certain Church leaders to cover the real reason behind their fear of secularism - the loss of their power to control the lives, choices, and beliefs of others.
It is the separation of Church and State that *promotes* religious freedom, for Christians, and everyone else.
Yes, de-Christianization is occurring, has been occurring, but not because of secularism. Christians are destroying their own faith from within.
And It is in undermining separation of church and state, by trying to enshrine their beliefs into law, that they threaten their own religious freedom.
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@Teg Laer
I just left a comment trying to express the same idea, but you words are so much more eloquent than my own. Thank you.
I have to chuckle a bit every time I read an article about 'church goers', conservative leanings, and reading of the political tea leaves. Church going and supposed religiosity in the US has strayed so far its original intent and moral underpinnings that it's more of a cultural persuasion than moral high ground these days. The Grand Inquisitor by Dostoyevsky comes to mind as a fitting parallel. Christianity, at its core, used to be radical in its thinking of status quo. If folks today overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, there would be calls from this faction today saying, "Lock him up!" or worse.
1
Describing being white as "very important" to their identity, supporting the death penalty, skeptical of immigration and a "more hostile" view of Muslims? While I realize it isn't my responsibility to judge, this is definitely not my idea of what a Christian is or believes. In recent days I have at times been stunned by the intense animosity I've heard and read toward Christians in general. Unfortunately, people holding these types of beliefs have given genuine Christians the poor reputation now widely held by many.
2
The title, "Conservatism after Christianity" implies that Christianity is going to disappear. Christianity will not disappear. Perhaps the only parts that will survive will be the liberal Christians since they have compromised themselves less. Conjoining Christianity with conservatism is certainly bad for a faith that claims that God said how you treat him is equal to how you treat 'the least of these,' the lowest in society, no, not just those not yet born. Jesus never directly made any statement about that subject. He was talking about the very people conservatives attack as lazy and unworthy of help or compassion. Conflating Christianity with conservatives makes no more sense than conflating Christianity with atheists.
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@Barbara Reader With respect, I think this is a misreading of the core message of Christianity, which is that it is your *personal* responsibility to help the unfortunate. It is not for you to criticize others for not doing their part. Ye who casts the first stone, plank in eye, and all that stuff.
Fundamentally, I think Christianity falls somewhere between the two political ideologies. It teaches compassion, yes, but also personal individual responsibility and self-reflection. It says nothing about the role of "society". It's a personal religion.. at least at the time that I was taught it back int he 90s.
1
I disagree, with the idea that conservatism after christianity means christianity is per se is on the way out.
as a political tool perhaps, as one could talk about “the communist party line after the stalin purges”, but just as political terrorism, christianity is here to stay,it seems.
hopefully, christianity has more socially redeemable values.
Interesting that the Cato survey, or this report of it, does not deal with misogyny -- surely a signal quality of both Trumpism and Evangelical religion. It remains unremarkable apparently that Republicans casually denigrate and deny the concerns, rights, and needs of women.
May the gender gap roll over them like the waters of a mighty hurricane.
Conservatism after Christianity has already arrived Ross, and Trump is definitely the manifestation of that. Conservatism has morphed into a repository of anger and cultural despair, representing a reaction against changing demographics deriving from immigration and globalization. Once more, Trump is an expression of that.
Foremost of all, Trump is also a prime example of how American society no longer has any sense of social responsibility. In exalting libertarian political philosophy the past 4 decades, Americans have essentially forgotten that they belong to an entity bigger than themselves. Indeed, the idea of community, as demonstrated by volunteerism, has all but vanished from the USA. In turn, solipsism has become the defining characteristic of American society today.
Trump himself isn't an unfortunate consequence of secularism, but an unhealthy veneration of individual freedom. This exaltation has become narcotic, and American society has in many ways become an expression of substance abuse.
The last sentence of Mr. Douthat's piece seems to assume nothing but a downside to what he calls the de-Christianization of conservative politics. Of course much depends on what exactly he means by "de-Christianization". His assumption seems also overly dependent on the idea that once a conservative becomes secularized, he or she is destined to become one of Clinton's basket of deplorables.
If, as Mr. Douthat claims, those conservatives who call themselves Christians are more inclined to be inclusive of minorities, I see no reason why they should suddenly become nativist xenophobes once they have thrown god under the bus. Can't they simply become amoral bankers and hedge fund managers like the rest of the Republican establishment? Or is that just another form of deplorable?
You blithely talk about the religious liberty conservative believers support. But what their liberty really means for them is forcing their beliefs on everyone else. They want to bake their cakes only for those whose believe what they do, and live by the rigid rules they follow.
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@Robert Levine Clearly Christians need to discouraged from voting and if they do. It’s they should be barred from voting in the future or jailed.
This opinion piece serves to emphasize the fact that organized religion should not be part of our political landscape. Religion represents a warp factor we can all do well without.
1
In summary, Ross's point is that "Real Christians" voted for Trump, and support all of his policies, but they aren't quite as ecstatic about him than are less serious Christians. And that helps us how?
The result is the same Ross.
Real "Real Christians" would follow the actual teachings of Jesus, and support none of this. None. Of. This.
7
There is so much wrong with this column, it is difficult to know where to begin. The overarching problem is the poorly-explained assumption that loss of religion and so-called de-Christianization are some how causative factors in the change in direction of the Republican party.
Mr. Douthat sidesteps the fact that those he describes as "irreligious" or "de-Christianized" conservatives still claim both religion (i.e. belief in a god) and, for the most part, Christianity specifically. The inflexibility of the modern interpretations of ancient religions, the roots of which preceded writing, and the failure to educate religious people to rely on their evaluative and critical thinking skills stand out as the better, simpler and more obvious explanations.
Truly irreligious, de-Christianized people (i.e. atheists) by all measures tend to be well-educated (even if self-educated), empathic, thoughtful globalists who abhor what Mr. Trump has always stood for. Moreover, whereas religious conservatives of all ilk seem willing, if not eager, to deal with the devil, that phenomenon seems much less probable among atheists who don't believe the devil exists.
1
The trouble with betting on Constantine is that the young church sold its soul. When Christians ascended to power, Christianity ceased to be about the teachings of Jesus and became an instrument of social control. Power and wealth are spiritual corruptions.
Gibbon saw the rise of Christianity as the official religion of Rome as contributing to the dissolution of the empire. With three known exceptions (Christians being one), the Roman state had actively encouraged the preservation of diverse local religious traditions in coexistence with Roman ethnic religion embodied by the emperor. Archaeology amply attests to this religious pluralism from Britain to Syria to North Africa. Scholars who study the realities of ancient Roman religion based on texts and epigraphy offer a picture quite unlike that of Hollywood and the myth of persecution (debunked by Candida Moss, for one). Although Constantine must have seen the more simplistic top-down monotheism of Christianity as a way to centralize power, it was divisive and hostile to diversity. Like Trump, the Christian church was a master of projection, inventing persecution to deflect from its own intolerance.
Very early in its history, Christianity departed from the spontaneous spiritual and social movement of Jesus, using his teachings of a future heaven to control the poor in this world. As an organized religion, Christianity has always been about lust for dominion. The true followers of Jesus are voices crying in the wilderness.
2
I left the evangelical church a decade ago after noticing the sermons were more about masculinity than about God. It doesn't take a seminary degree to recognize a theology based on male narcissism has little to offer to women, to God, or to society as a whole. It does perhaps explain why 80 percent of evangelicals voted for Trump, and why some see him as almost a savior.
5
Re: the early Christian alliance with Constantine and other similar figures: as Thomas Merton once wrote: "When emperors start seeing crosses in the sky, watch out!" Betrayal of Christ's message was one of the first things early Christianity did, starting with the embrace of political and military power. This continued throughout western history, with the result that political, military and financial gains were often clothed in the rhetoric of the Christian fight against evil. Catholic missionaries, instead of denouncing colonialism, concentrated on baptizing the victims so that they would go to heaven when killed by invading "Christian" - i.e. Western armies.
6
@Brian Hogan: It is said that Jesus only claimed to be a "son of man". This suggests that he may have understood the "soul" to be the heritage of prior experience we gain, pass on, and sometimes add to, by living out our individual lives.
You like to put everyone in tiny little boxes and you keep pushing the same nonsense that religious Conservatives have pushed forever, namely that Democrats are all heathens. Have you ever considered the possibility that many sincerely religious people choose to identify as Democrats because it's absolutely impossible for them to even consider identifying as Republican/Conservative since Republicans and Conservatives consistently say and do such...oh forget about it, of course you've never considered it.
You actually think it was a good thing that among Republicans and Conservatives, "the most reliable churchgoers tended to prefer Ted Cruz but the more secular part of the party was more Trumpist." The fact that you're bemoaning that secular Conservatives are, like the guy they worship, even more racist and detestable than religious conservatives, who might choose only a slightly less repugnant and awful guy, means you're totally lost. You can keep twisting and bending the numbers until they break, but no matter how you slice and dice them they still add up to same thing: Religious Conservatives are totally complicit in everything terrible Trump does. Pretending that some sort of secular incursion has taken over the Republican Party is preposterous, especially as we've all been watching Religious Theocratic Conservatives, not Secular Trumpists, force your darling, Brett Kavanaugh, who you described as a "vindication" of "abortion opponents", onto the Supreme Court.
10
"This seems to support the argument, advanced by Tim Carney of the Washington Examiner among others, that support for populism correlates with a kind of communal breakdown, in which secularization is one variable among many leaving people feeling isolated and angry, and drawing them to the ersatz solidarity of white identity politics."
You see any evidence of significant white identity politics -racism - xenophobia in blue states dominated by secular liberals?
Of course not! Which brings us around to the weakness of this commentary which fails to take into account considerations of secular enlightenment -urbanity and education.
It's all about "stupidity" and it's relationship to objective analysis and decision making - emotional, insular and absurdist thinking -And it's inextricable link to early childhood religious indoctrination.
ps -Too bad we can't further enhance this analysis by factoring in IQ.
1
United States Constitutional law outlines a clear separation of church and state. Nevertheless, there is a significant population of Christian fundamentalists who want to impose their version of extremist religious law on the rest of the nation. This includes a ban on abortion for any reason including loss of the mother's life. It also includes the promotion of anti-science, the denial of evolution and of man-made climate change. Christian fundamentalists played a major role in electing Trump (85% support him) despite his extensive history of defrauding students and workers, and his vulgar confessions of sexual misconduct. Many were told by their pastors that it would be a sin not to vote for Trump/Pence. They are now willing to stand idly by as thousands are condemned to an early death for lack of health care and as immigrant children are ripped from their mothers' arms This is not what their bible teaches.
These pseudo-religious hypocrites have they no shame in their efforts to seek political power while worshiping at the temple of Donald Trump.
8
@jefflz
There is also a population that is increasingly hostile to religion. This makes them equally hypocritical as they have no shame in denying the rights of certain individuals, whose views they abhor, while claiming to "champion all rights." Meanwhile those religious views are protected by law and always have been.
1
Religion literally means to get in line. Trump was beat down, ignored and sent to military boarding school in an attempt to get him "in line". It didn't work. Similarly, his non-religious supporters have stepped out of line because they have been beat down by charlatans, political and religious. They've had enough and Trump is their angry voice, unsilenced at last, even as he escorts them up to the scaffold of their economic gallows.
The religious conservatives are the well appointed knights in shiny armor lined up at the forefront of the rabble behind them. They are both run through with hatred for those not like them. It is tribalism, pure and simple. One group "pure" and the other "simple".
4
Please stop calling Trump amoral. That refers to someone who does not know the difference between right and wrong:
“If someone or something is amoral, it means they do not have a sense of morality whatsoever or are impartial to it, as in:
“An insect is amoral; it only does what its instincts tell it to do.”
“Lawyers must in many ways be amoral, defending their client in a court of law regardless of personal beliefs or opinions.”
“A child is amoral before a certain age, simply unable to grasp the concept of right versus wrong.”
An immoral person or thing, though, does that which goes against or subverts accepted or conventional moral principles. For example:
“The company’s decision to rescind employees’ health benefits may not be illegal, but it is certainly immoral in my opinion.””
https://www.thefreedictionary.com/amoral-vs-immoral.htm
Do you really think Trump doesn’t know it is wrong to cheat his suppliers and contractors, lie to his wives, going so far as to put them at risk by having unprotected sex, lie to destroy others who stand in his way of riches and power, etc.? The evidence is voluminous that this is a deeply IMMORAL man. In fact his he is an evil man by my personal, secular definition - someone who not only deliberately breaks the moral codes but who also takes great pleasure in doing it. That he loves being immoral has been evident for decades. Just look at how he brags about it in “auto”biographies like “The Art of the Deal”.
5
Is it not possible to be both immoral and amoral? Complete immorality would require a full awareness of right and wrong. Is it not evident that Trump exhibits both profound indifference to truth(reality) where he can only aspire to an amoral indifference to right and wrong as well as an immoral indifference where he has some cognition of what is right and wrong? Let's give him the credit he deserves, he is hearing some good things about Frederick Douglas.
A new "authoritarian personality" has emerged in the era of Trump and populist extremism.
It is simply impossible to be a follower of Jesus, a man of color who preached care for the poor, aid to the afflicted, welcoming of the immigrant, peace and justice and be a Republican or a Trumper. Everything Trump and his party stand for and are trying to inflict on the country is diametrically opposed to real Christian values and principles.
8
For those supposedly 'pragmatic' evangelicals who have continued to support the president in spite of his monumentally un Christian views and actions: the line between pragmatism and hypocrisy is a very thin one indeed.
3
"Values Voters" apparently have values they prioritize over the ones they talk about. Jesus never extolled guns and the wealthy. slagged the poor or the immigrant, or commented on abortion.
While weekly, if not daily, church goers gather to talk of Jesus' values, they then enter the voting booth to promote Trump's.
3
Evangelicalism is really little more than narcissism masquerading as a faith; it is fundamentally about the dangerous belief that one's faith is cause for others to change their behavior.
Meanwhile, the more right-wing brand of conservatism is basically just narcissism masquerading as an ideology; one's own greed is good and everyone and everything else counts for less.
These two - evangelicalism and conservatism - are joined at the hip. And are an affront to both democracy and social decency.
11
• The irreligious are less likely to have college degrees....
According to The Washington Examiner, DC's ultra-conservative pamphlet? This contradicts all available study and research which points to the opposite.
"Overall, U.S. adults with college degrees are less religious than others...."
~ Pew Research Center - Religion & Public Life
April 26, 2017
http://www.pewforum.org/2017/04/26/in-america-does-more-education-equal-...
BASIC RELIGION TEST STUMPS MANY AMERICANS
By LAURIE GOODSTEIN
THE NEW YORK TIMES: September 28, 2010
Researchers from the independent Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life phoned more than 3,400 Americans and asked them 32 questions about the Bible, Christianity and other world religions, famous religious figures and the constitutional principles governing religion in public life.
Those who scored the highest were atheists and agnostics....
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/28/us/28religion.html
4
@Robert Coane
Ross was talking about the religious/irreligious split within the GOP, not the nation as a whole. And remember, the kind of Christians most associated with the party, evangelicals, have a pretty large network of colleges that, even if they're not particularly prestigious, do grant degrees and thus anyone who graduated from one would be counted as being a college graduate.
1
@Robert Coane
You can both be correct, as Douthat was limiting his universe to conservatives/Republicans/Trump supporters/Trump voters. That's a bit less than half, or a bit less than a third, of the population depending which categories he's using at any particular time. His language skips around among these groupings, which clearly aren't the same, especially if you are talking about those who voted for Trump in 2016 or those who support him today, or his strong supporters -- the ones supporting him out of other than tribal party loyalty.
2
Ross's numbers are only for Trump voters, Pew's numbers are for the population at large. So his stats and Pew's stats do not contradict each other at all.
1
Douthat completely ignores one factor or aspect: the generational one. There is a clearly documented growth of the non-affiliated in the youngest age cohorts. And an important one factor in their rejection of religion is the Evangelical "Christian" pact with the devil in their support of Trump.
1
The irony is that Hillary is a much more devout Christian than Trump.
But the real fear is those people who wrap themselves in the flag and in Jesus, but have never done anything remotely patriotic or Christian.
7
@David G.
Most agnostics are more devout Christians than President Trump is. I suspect he is firmly in the atheist camp. His personal God is himself.
@David G.
But a Clinton Administration would have been much more hostile to religious beliefs. Bottom line.
1
Separate church and state but let each institution value the dignity of every human being, including those already born. Ignorance and arrogance have no place in either institution, or in the media. One cannot call themselves followers of Christ by rationalizing economic inequality, gender inequality, or by denying refugees the same rights and privileges that they enjoy regardless of their birth circumstances. Frequent references to "God" does not make one a Christian, nor does memorizing the Bible and blindly interpreting it to serve a political purpose. We were given brains for a reason. Christianity is measured by actions not words.
7
The Christian Right that supports Trump is no different than the Christians who supported slavery and segregation: hypocrites.
Christianity is on the decline in America because so few Christians act in a manner that would attract people to their churches. They blame it on liberals, vent their anger on Democrats, and refuse to acknowledge their uniformly anti-christian politics.
11
@Josh Wilson
It is actually the same churches, often led by the sons of the original leaders, who back in the day fought desegregation of the schools by establishing Christian segregated academies and colleges and cited biblical passages to prove that blacks are inferior to whites. This has been going on for a looong time. It favored the Southern slave-owning elites, but somehow they have convinced middle-class and poor evangelical southern whites to adopt these views, along with economic policies which harm them.
1
Ross is using data to cleanse religious/non-religious conservatives off the gross error they have made in voting for an administration that is not informed by values. The playbook seems all too familiar - first do something egregiously wrong and then point finger to some one else to claim your self-righteous position in the society. No data and no slicing of society can still justify the choice of this administration. They alone bear the full responsibility for all the wrong things happening, all the tax-payer funded social welfare for the rich, who by the way are lionized in all religious institutions across the country. So lets not try to make it easy for all that they cast the worst vote of their lives and they will have to live with this guilt.
2
My white christian relatives all espouse angry negative racial stereotypes and anti-gay rhetoric. They refuse to accept any idea that we have societal advantages as white Americans. I recommend The Color of Law: A Forgotten History of How Our Government Segregated America, Richard Rothstein to understand how much harder it is and has been for generations in this country if you are not white. Guess who they support?
Their thoughts are the opposite of Jesus's teachings.
2
"This seems to support the argument, ..., that support for populism correlates with a kind of communal breakdown, in which secularization is one variable among many leaving people feeling isolated and angry."
Correlation is not cause, and it is a serious mistake to assume that it is in this case.
1
Christians in politics care more about power than morality.
How else can these same Christians fail to condemn Trump for numerous affairs (with lies about payoffs) and often professed vile, hatreds of others?
These political Christians are no different from the old Moral Majority... proven to be neither moral or a majority.
4
The term "white tribalism" concerns me. It seems like some twisted, right-wing intellectual word trick to elevate racism into a denomination worthy of reverence and study. Connecting it with "religious liberty" tacks on an undeserved reverence.
The political, evangelical warriors continue to create an entire vocabulary in an attempt to sanitize hatred and division. We all know what "Make America Great Again" really means and its ugly.
It certainly does not mean the glorious melting pot of immigrants who built a vibrant, democratic society based on inclusion.
4
Interesting breakdown of the secular/church going divergence amongst Trump voters. I disagree that the “bet” is “something that secular liberals should fear.” The bet is exposing white nationalists/xenophobiacs as a marginalized voting bloc that had its zenith under Trump and will never come close to achieving political power again. Secular liberals should find comfort that Trump voters who worship a non-existent god display much more compassion for their fellow man/woman than Trumps rabid tribal base.
2
What this survey teaches us is that the GOP is well aware of who their base is and they know that all they need to do is promise to cut taxes, deregulate, cut unnecessary spending that benefits those lazy brown and black people, and of course confirm conservative judges that will continue to ensure that the rights of the religious trump the freedom to live life differently by those who don't share religious views. Trump wasn't subtle but he really isn't much different than those Republicans who came before him.
There's a lot of frustration and resentment thanks to the economic inequality in our country. Those who should be doing something about it are too busy profiting from it and are more than happy to feed the fire to maintain power. We were warned by our first president to be wary of those who seen to divide us for their own gain but we tend to repeat the mistakes of the past during times of stress.
I do find it offensive that Ross assumes that the GOP represents all religious people. I know many religious people who are quite liberal in their views and are extremely frustrated by those who supported a deranged sexist bigot to retain power over the courts. We recognize that separation between church and state protects our freedom and allows us to live life according to our values while respecting that those with secular values deserve the same options to choose what is best for them. We're a melting pot not a theocracy.
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The article's subtext that somehow the religious, more tolerant wing of Trump's base, Trump-lite, has less to atone for in helping to choose what Douthat euphemistically labels an "unusual" President, just doesn't wash. Both groups cast their vote for and continue to support an openly racist individual, one who made his appeal to racism a centerpiece of his campaign. Isn't this what binds the Trump voter, rather than what separates them?
4
Let me suggest the Trumpian bet made by today's religious conservatives - those we layfolk generally refer to as "evangelicals" - doesn't just reflect their brand of religion in decline making a desperate bet to survive, it represents people with a bankrupt theology making a desperate bet to retain power and money.
5
I notice blacks and Latinos are not asked if they feel warmly towards white people. There lies the problem with this analysis.
Read Professor Steve Phillips’ “Brown is the New White”. His well documented book shows that black, Latino and progressive white voters are the majority. This was certainly true when a large portion of the majority wasn’t motivated by Hillary and didn’t vote. Despite winning by 3 million popular votes, the candidate of below average GDP per capita states won.
The current democratic leadership is not speaking to the new majority. Ocasio-Cortez is. If a Elizabeth Warren reads Phillips’ book, she can win in a landslide. Then the majority can re-apportion federal dollars to serve the majority, not Roy Moore and NRA county.
2
Reversing de-Christianization. Why? In the Catholic Church - where I sing in the choir - we have the managers (bishops and cardinals) in silly hats hiding the lie about celibacy. In the old line Protestant churches that once dominated our older cities, we have small congregations that support what are almost museum. If the churches serve more than a few, they are black Americans, not the old line white settlers.
Then we have the bizarre churches that started in the rural South and are run by pastors who seem far more interested in money and fame - but they tell a good lie.
And what would Jesus do? I think he would move on.
6
The survey you cite and the analysis of the survey present some interesting information about the thinking of religious conservatives. To me, however, the most signifiant and puzzling part of the Trump phenomenon is how religious conservatives could and still do support a man who is a pathological liar, an authoritarian, an egotist and one whose entire business practices and life, for that matter, are so far removed from the teachings of Christianity. To hail him, as some religious conservative leaders have as one sent from God is ludicrous. The desire to have another conservative on the SCOTUS who will vote to overturn Roe v Wade is often given as a reason for supporting Mr. Trump. Almost all in the group of Republican candidates leading up to the 2016 election would have done that. Why pick someone who is completely amoral? I've never had such a negative view of conservative Christians as I do now.
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I am amazed on how man posts to this article refer to President Trumps behavior as amoral and a dis qualifier for office but who are willing to support Bill Clinton and Ted Kennedy without a second thought. The democrats have maintained that personal behavior doesn't matter for liberals but should disqualify a conservative. I don't understand.
1
@RF -- I would add that it is somewhere between ironic and hypocritical (tending, I think, toward the latter) that we now have a perjuring SCOTUS nominee, appointed by a chronically dishonest president, about to be confirmed (I fear) by an agenda-driven (rather than an integrity-seeking) group of senators who do, in fact, know better but who just don't care. History will not forgive them their complicity.
1
@RF I am amazed on how man posts to this article refer to President Trumps behavior as amoral and a dis qualifier for office but who are willing to support Bill Clinton and Ted Kennedy without a second thought. The democrats have maintained that personal behavior doesn't matter for liberals but should disqualify a conservative. I don't understand.
In my opinion, "conservative" and "Christian" in the same breath is not being Christian. How can anyone claim to be Christian when they support the death penalty, the War in Afghanistan, expensive mega churches, the end of Social Security and Medicare and the elimination of workers rights? Oh and don't forget the rampant racism and sexism in the Conservative Christian churches. Nothing I've read in the the Gospels indicates that Jesus would have approved of one single "Conservative Christian" position.
9
Trump will do for American evangelical Christianity what Mussolini and Franco did for European nationalism. Having attached itself to Trump, American Christianity will come to be associated with him, and it is a fairly solid bet that the faith will suffer for it. Trump of course will be gone one day, and Christianity will remain, and compared to the many awful crimes of which it has been guilty through these two centuries, selling itself to Donald Trump will appear relatively minor.
The spirit and name of Christ has been used by many for many purposes. Trump is just another buyer.
2
What this column suggests is that Democrats can peel off some Republican and Trump supporters in the religious camp by emphasizing what he and his party is not: tolerant, generous, intelligence, and (perhaps above all) truth-telling. Trump and the GOP have been playing on ignorance, fear, and anger without consequence to those who--if they were challenged to follow their religions more religiously--would challenge their leaders' appeals. The ignorant fundamentalists will always follow the ignorant Republican party, but with the right pitch--eg, Jesus loves immigrants, free markets aren't unregulated ones but regulated to be free for access to all--your holier-than-thou neighbor might be willing to flip tribes. Mueller is making it fashionable!
People are tribal. Fundamentalist Christians know adherence to the ideologies that define their tribe is in decline. Sexism, racism, and homophobia have always been the key identifiers for who is in and who is out of the controlling franchise of Christianity. What small changes in this are very new in the history of Christianity. Feeding the poor and caring for the sick, though often an activity amongst fundamentalist communities, has never been a integral part of the tribal identity of those communities. To my knowledge, no Christian sect has ever said that if one doesn't feed the poor or care for the sick, that person could not hold any position of meaningful leadership. Be female or gay, however, and one is immediately out of the running. No amount of feeding the poor will change that. No one is shunned, certainly, in modern Christianity communities for greed and callousness. To the contrary, "Prosperity Christianity" teaches just these "values" (as long as one tithes). But all Christian churches, overtly through most of history, and covertly these days, HAVE said no woman or person of "the other color" can hold leadership positions.
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Our Founders rightly based the creation of a secular government - a democratic Republic - embodied in our Constitution on one necessary idea of separation of Church and State. Those who mislabel non-churchgoers (i.e., atheists?) and liberals as secularists are not just promoting a false narrative, but are broadly anti-democratic and narrowly delusional.
The false narrative promoted by religious conservatives is that they are fighting for religious liberty, something they already have, with the real aim of denying (through elimination) some constitutional rights and freedoms in order to have “the right” to discriminate based on any made-up religious nonsense.
Those with the ability to distinguish between objective and subjective thinking, between fact and belief, accept a secular government, foundational democratic values, and a Constitution guaranteeing rights and freedoms, and can still hold deep religious beliefs; those that cannot distinguish appear anti-democratic and easily fooled by an anti-democratic demagogue.
The hypocrisy of the religious conservative is the pretense of Christian morals while supporting, or not being outraged, by the inhumanity of a political leader with no apparent human or religious morals. The guilt must be overwhelming at times, so overwhelming as to prompt an opinion piece trying to justify ignoring harmful, inhuman policies and elevating anti-democratic ideas.
5
I would suggest that, like many polls in which Trump is the center of attention (when isn’t he in Republican politics these days?), the real sentiments of individuals, that they support him, are hidden in embarrassment in contradiction to their alleged moral values. We all hold our noses and vote for people with whom we don’t totally agree. In the Trump era we have alleged Christian voters who claim moral purity selling their souls for a mess of pottage, one of which is indeed the white identity politics that fuels a substantial portion of the Trump base. Do they live in diverse communities, with whom do they interact, would they have their children marry someone of a different race? Probably not, which only confirms my viewpoint. They are less Christian than they say!
2
The GOP has been weaponizing religion for at least the past forty years. The party allied itself with the religious anti-abortion extremists after they provided the margin of victory in Bob Dole's Kansas Senate campaign against Dr. Bill Roy. Republican conservatives didn't care about the long term effects of tying politics to religion. These angry, mostly white people were reliable voters. They loved the votes.
Calling in the angry is the sin of "conservatism". Bargain after bargain got them ever angrier, ever more extreme supporters. To maintain power, they took up voter suppression and gerrymandering. They killed spending limits on campaigning and cheered unleashing corporate cash.
Why the reliance on stacking the deck? American conservatism's ideas failed.
They gave us endless wars in Afghanistan and placed us at center in the century's old Middle East feuds. They made debt multiply and set us upon the path of smaller booms and ever bigger busts. They turned on immigrants - even on their smallest children. And finally, they gave us Trump.
Conservative Christianity gave itself to the GOP. They and the conservatives sold their souls with the embrace.
As a secular liberal, I'm not sure why I should fear that this devil's bargain is going badly. Religions and political parties based in fear and hate are not something I wish to see thrive.
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With all due respect, President Trump has done more for the freedom of religious liberty than any president in recent history.
For a discussion of the legal representation for such liberties, one can listen to the recent Federalist Society panel on "Religious Liberty and Conscience Rights in the Trump Era":
https://fedsoc.org/conferences/2018-texas-chapters-conference?#agenda-it...
1
The toxicity of combining religion and government was the concern of the end of the Constitution and the very FIRST Amendment. Trump and his minions spew hate and the Federalist Society, so inaptly named supports religious PREFERENCE and religious imposition and religious melding with hate organizations which are distinctly different than religious liberty which is what the Constitution defends. This is what has always been the most valuable American right-the right to think independently.
Evangelical Christians were courted by the GOP in a big way starting with the Moral Majority and Jerry Falwell in the 80s. They have become a force within the party driving it to extreme positions on a very narrow range of issues. Many Evangelicals are indeed one issue voters...yet live in a multiple issue world. Evangelical Christians are destroying our country by using the selective interpretation of a religious text to promote hatred and bigotry disguised as positive social policy. Religion should start in one's heart but end at the edge of one's front yard. Stay off my grass please. What the GOP (and the country) needs is freedom from religion more so than freedom of religion.
4
Baruch Spinoza wrote that God is Nature and Nature is God. That is what Einstein accepted and it is good enough for me. Nature does not have a special relationship with humanity, and too many humans display no respect for Nature. But Nature ultimately gets the final word.
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@James S Kennedy "But Nature ultimately gets the final word."
And to add to this thought i would say God/Nature is sure having a wacky, crazy time this fall with all the monster storms prancing across oceans and land and causing people to die in land and mud slides, drowning, destroying homes, etc. Love or worship this kind of God? I think not. But who among us really knows anything? We are still stumbling along including scientists.
Peace.
I can understand those conservatives who oppose abortion on religious grounds (although if you push the issue, that opposition turns out to be a matter not of "life" but of sex).
But I can't understand the rallying cry of "religious liberty" among conservatives. How have Americans lost any freedom to practice their religion?
If this complaint is really code for something like the legalization of same-sex marriage, then the issue isn't whether the state has blocked anyone's free exercise of their religion; it is a complaint about the fact that the state will not reliably regulate *everyone* in society according to their preferred religious beliefs. And that's the opposite of the principle of religious liberty.
9
There is no empirical evidence with regard to the existence of god. The jury is still out as to whether Jesus Christ existed as a man, let alone the son of god. He may have been a composite of a dozen different individuals at that time period who roamed around the desert and claimed to be born of a virgin mother. The entire religious experience is based on "faith," and to quote novelist Tom Robbins, "Faith is believing in something you know isn't true."
1
The election of Donald Trump with the majority support of people who claim to vote based on their religious beliefs should be the death knell of the always specious argument that one must have religion to have a moral code.
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This piece seems to be deeply mistaken on several key points and it is very obvious where this person stands on the political spectrum.
It would have been a much, much more effective argument had the author just given facts and statistics and allowed those to speak for themselves. The fact that it felt a lot like reading a lecture, was very off-putting.
1
Both religion and politics have the same objective: to coral the masses into obedience through either mythology or brute force, whichever gets the job done.
Trump's achievement has been to rip the mask of respectability off of both the Republican party and Christian fundamentalism as he appealed to their naked hatefulness, hypocrisy, and greed.
Hoarding wealth and power is the objective of the Republican party at this point in history, and conservative Christianity was long ago seduced by the self-serving Gospel of Prosperity.
4
How anyone who seriously professes to be a Christian can support Trump and his policies is a mystery to me. But then I meet many who call themselves Christians who seem to have no actual interest in adhering to the teachings of Christ, except the part about forgiveness of their sins, which they then figure they can continue to commit with impunity as long as they regularly petition for forgiveness.
Which is a whole lot easier than actual emulating Christ...
4
I think you drew the wrong conclusion from the statistics in the end.
People are people, religious or not. If they are kind, they will be kind if they are believers or atheists. If they are cruel, religion won't fix them.
People who are kind and not religious tend to be Democrats.
Think about it: Kind people who aren't religious aren't advocating for the religious part of the Republican agenda (RE: anti-gay rights, anti-abortion rights), and they see the benefit of extending social safety nets for everyone. They aren't so greedy they'd choose a tax break over a child's food security. So there is nothing in the Republican party to appeal to them.
Republicans are the ones who want to cut funding for SNAP and shut down every attempt toward universal medical insurance as well as give tax breaks to rich people who don't suffer from a lack of money. Also, they don't seem to be terribly bothered by the US taking small children from their mother's arms and locking them up in jail at the border.
No, I don't see any special morality coming from Republicans, religious or not. Their policies are cruel, and with their president constantly stoking anger and resentment towards immigrants (and Democrats, etc.) as he appeals to their greed and personal entitlement, is it really any wonder?
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There once was a president. He always had to be the center of attention. His moods were mercurial and unpredictable. He ranted at people. He stole his first election to the Senate through voter fraud. He treated his Secret Service detail like the hired help. He had numerous affairs during the course of his marriage, and once bragged that..”I’ve had more women by accident than Jack Kennedy had on purpose.”
This president was also responsible for the Civil Rights Act of 1964, the Voting Rights Act of 1965, and the War on Poverty.
Does the reprehensible moral and personal character of President Johnson lessen these accomplishments? Does it lessen the “goodness” of these accomplishments?
Reprehensible men can be responsible for good things. Secular liberals need to remember this before they start casting aspersions at conservative Christians for supporting President Trump. Or, do secular liberals believe that conservative Christians’ rights to live out their faith is not a “good” thing worth fighting for like civil rights, voting rights, and alleviating poverty.
@Mark N You are absolutely right. There are no perfect people, in politics or anywhere else. It is not his sex life that concerns me, which, for all presidents, should be kept private unless it violates laws or threatens national security. It is his amorality about everything and his narcissism. He has no "Christian values" that I can discern. No concern for the "least of these," no humility, no sense that all are equal in the eyes of God, nothing that says he has a heart for the suffering of others, stewardship for God's creation, you name it. As for his achievements, do any of those, thus far, say, "I am a disciple of Jesus Christ"? Tax cuts for the wealthiest and most powerful? Dismantling of the healthcare law? Dismantling of environmental regulations? Rejection of the refugees and asylum seekers? What exactly has he done that any Christian could point to and say, "He's one of us"?
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@Mark N He was so much more intelligent than trump. Doesn't that count for anything?
Living out your faith does not mean imposing it on others. Johnson accomplished many things humbled by the support his predecessor had for those ideas. He served his adult life in the government and acknowledged when he could no longer lead. Trump is nothing, stands for nothing, has done nothing but steal money for his rich friends and consort with enemies, behaves like an adolescent (apologies to adolescent) and what are you gaining? One party theocratic rule?
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It seems to me that by "religious", "Christian" is meant. If so, this equivalence is in and of itself worrying. Besides, even within the multitude of Christian Churches, quite a few are in fact racially separate, catering to exclusively or majority uni-racial congregations. For someone who worships in such a church, professing amity for others is a pretty sterile thing to do. So, all in all, perhaps the divide isn't quite as pronounced as Mr. Douthat sets out.
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Today's right-wing "Christians" are not so much Christian as authoritarian. They are therefore quite in step with Trump.
How often someone goes to church does not correlate with how closely they resemble Jesus, particularly not when so many churches seem to have abandoned their alleged founder and his priorities.
Notice that while right-wingers have pushed for the display of the Ten Commandments (in the OT), you have never heard a case where they pushed for the display of the Sermon on the Mount (supposedly the heart of Christianity).
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There are a few lessons from this essay. First that conservatism is hardly a unified concept. Religious conservatism is way different from economic/budget conservatism which is different from business conservatism which is different from racial/cultural conservatism or military conservatism. What seems to hold the system together is that "conservatism" is not "liberalism". Liberalism has been attacked by the Republican party since the 1970's or earlier, largely because of equality issues that drove conservative Democrats to the Republican party, but it was just a drumbeat of negative concepts about spending, who was getting government help and who was for or against war. Perhaps the religious vote became the swing, so you had to have fights over Supreme Court appointments. So Anti-Liberal is the definition of conservative?
The second big lesson is that the Constitution and our whole political process was defined as non-religious, and that has been a good thing, but it helped that we were all Christians. Catholics were shut out of politics until Kennedy was elected, now their parochial beliefs about birth control make them "conservative".
None of this should be the thrust of our political discussions. Nor should racism and white identity, but Thaaaank You Mr. Trump
1
I would suggest that there are just as many church-going (or temple-going, or Buddhist shrine-going, or Mosque-going) believers who completely reject the abhorrent policy and behavior of our President as those who support him. These are people who understand the goals of our founding fathers and grasp the importance of separation of church and state. These are people who understand the Constitution, care about the future of our nation, and recognize the need for the rule of law. These are the people who continue to give me faith that our nation is not yet completely lost. It is clear, however, that dark money, gerrymandering, lack of term limits, overtly racist criminal codes, and corruption in our current political system will make this a very long, difficult, uphill battle.
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My Christian grandmother taught me that being a Christian was first and foremost to stand for the hard right against the easy wrong.
As a 5th grade Sunday School teacher, I learned my kids were so busy watching how I acted that they didn't pay too much attention to what I said.
I cannot wrap my mind around Christians who voted for a man who thumbs his nose at the Ten Commandments, makes lying into an art form, and whose empathy and compassion is equal to King Herod's when informed of the birth of Jesus.
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Ross, rather than being part of the problem, why not be part of the solution. One thing you can be sure of is that most of those "secular conservatives/Trumpists" are not going to understand anything you wrote in this article. Instead of trying to be so pity and erudite, meet them where they live. Explain to them why they are so rigid in their beliefs. I've never met an authoritarian who knew he/she was authoritarian because they didn't know the definition or characteristics of an authoritarian. They just know they are "right about everything." How 'bout it, Ross? Give 'em the lowdown.
2
Irish Catholic men are a very big attraction for Trump and they continue to reign. Ryan and McConnell. Kelly still holds on. Others like Flynn have come and gone. Kavanaugh is waiting for his moment. These men come from a culture of faith where abortion was an outrageous notion and the father, very much front and center was often a distant disciplinarian. Simultaneously we have a renewed intensity of priest scandals being dug up and a coup being attempted against the Pope for being too liberal. Catholicism is still connected to a lot of men money and history. It's an intrinsic part of patriarchy, and one of it's grandest proponents.
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I believe that people who are religious and humble can provide an anchor against wildly bigoted behavior. However I don’t believe that churchgoing or criminalization of abortion measure those traits. The group Douthat measures still voted and support Trump and his goal of one party repressive rule to demonize non believers and those supporting reproductive rights. It takes hard work to decrease abortions and requires a society willing to give hope to young people so they can see a future to have children they want and can raise and can support. Democratic administrations have seen abortion rates drop without demeaning the people who struggle with the choice. Those conservatives are not pro-life. They are anti freedom and support policies that are bound to increase abortions. Democracy is hard work. It is not religious or humble to take the lazy way out by calling young people criminals who don’t follow your views. Instead of the iron fist, be the shining light on the hill.
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If true, it could only be called ironic that secularization is leaving people who claim religious affiliation feeling a sense of communal breakdown. They might find that community if they tried regularly attending one of those churches to which they claim affiliation. However, I would ask which is the chicken and which the egg? Possibly those folks are not in those pews Sunday mornings knowing full well that some the Trumpist political prejudices they cherish might be challenged in any number of even Evangelical congregations were they to actually show up there.
While I am saddened that so much of leadership of the Evangelical wing of American Christianity is doing such an effective job of discrediting the Gospel to millions of young Americans, I can't help but suspect that the state of Christianity even in the average Evangelical congregation is not as hopeless as one might infer from either the behavior of church 'leadership' or the political preferences of those who it appears claim a religious tradition culturally but don't actually practice it.
@jagets In countries where those who claim to represent religion become a branch of socially conservative governments, the young become irreligious. It's happened in Iran, as well as in Ireland, and has become a full blown movement in the US among the under-30 set.
The upside is that in 40 years, the likelihood of a United States being at the beck and call of those who don't believe in science but do believe in a literal Noah's ark will be greatly diminished, and we may finally be ready to join the rest of the civilized world in building a society that focuses on social justice and peace and education not because of any religious belief but because it's simply the right thing to do. In becoming less 'Christian', the US's non-religious voters will actually build a US that is more Christ-like in its views.
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All the wringing of hands over mythology by so-called religious beings--congregations exist because humans like to gather for social events with their own "kind" regardless of dogma which is the excuse to gather together at the little cost of tithing or in some cases no cost, just "volunteer" doings-
Personally the cost of belonging is too soporific!
I find it very difficult to accept the political schism between the Republicans, Trumpian and old-fashioned, and Democrats as linked to un differentiated Christianity. One often thinks of the Democrats as the New York City model of a WASP and Reform-Judaic mix. The Republicans are in part of the WASP and Catholic stock, plus whatever else.
Trump must have successfully played on the sentiments of some Protestant groups, particularly of those who emphasize their white ethnicity. However, this is far from correct to identify the political beliefs of all the practicing Christians.
Trying to make the best of a decline, I'm looking for a "big tent" party and candidates to support.
The Trumpian Catholic remains the most perplexing. For many of the most dedicated, it remains a routine of rosary reciting, mass attendance and a theology restricted to the contents of the Baltimore catechism. It requires weekly attendance to Sunday ceremonies that hold to the religious practices codified in the era of brutal empires and segregated ethnic tribes. It maintains a hierarchy of clerics that were and continue to be shielded from scrutiny that would prevent sexual misconduct, felonies against its lay families and would identify financial mismanagement or out right fraud and embezzlement or even a conduit for international money laundering for criminals, war or otherwise, and dictators.
Its members would be perplexed to be considered just a Christian, do not carry anything past the church door into a separate secular world and wear the red Trump hat with the delight of a bishop, cardinal or pope when wearing their pointed hat.
In short it is a Trumpian organization with a crucifix. Its support for him and his likes are not unique, unfortunately.
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It may be true that young republicans are moving away from the church and towards white nationalism, but this is not the outcome of secularization. This is a natural progression as religion loses its authority and a Trump rally is more exciting than church on Sunday.
What does carry over is faith - faith in authority, faith in tribalism, faith in fantasies and conspiracies, and firm belief that faith is more important than truth and in the end truth and science don't matter... Religion is the breeding ground for Trumpism...
4
Voting can be quite a dilemma for those of us who believe in the Gospel. If I vote at all, I am left feeling that I have compromised some of my most deeply held beliefs.
And most of them I do not see as mere personal articles of faith but important guidelines for a healthy society: feed the hungry, welcome the stranger, visit the sick, love one another and regard each human life as valuable as your own.
Even the politician who comes the closest to sharing these values often veers from them in some critical way - or is pressured to do so by party politics. Often this has left me thinking it best to withdraw from the political world altogether.
However, in 2016, I deviated from that stance and voted against Mr. Trump. It was not because I supported his closest rival but because I believed that he was dangerous and needed to be stopped. I still believe this.
Besides the obvious dangers he poses, there is another level of threat that concerns me profoundly: having viewed the contradiction of Mr. Trump's lifestyle alongside of his claim that he is a Christian, even more people are discounting Christianity without ever really exploring it.
Christianity was never intended to be a tool of political movements. It is about a new Life. We have become so diseased, so full of hatred for ourselves and others, that our species is nearly dead.
Abandoning Christianity will not bring us back to life. If we are to be saved, it is Love Who will save us.
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@drmaryb
Trump poses no threat to Christians. On the contrary, his Administration has actively sought to protect the religious liberties of religious adherents. Under Obama, laws protecting religious beliefs were largely ignored, which essentially removed such protections.
Under Trump, these laws are being pro-actively enforced. For example, no longer can a chaplain be court martialed for finding another chaplain to counsel same-sex couples because he could not in good faith. This, despite the fact that he followed all regulations by finding a chaplain would could perform this service.
At a private retirement ceremony for a former military person on a military base, a flag folding ceremony was conducted, which was to include "God bless our flag. God bless our troops. God bless America". Uniform military grabbed the person performing this ceremony, and threw him out of the room. For mentioning "God". (He was unaware that "God" was not to be mentioned on this particular military base.)
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@drmaryb
I explored Christianity as a Catholic. I was born into the faith and received a Catholic school education. The only idea that seems relevant to me is the Golden Rule. I believe it is well embedded in the bible. No one needs to be a Christian to understand it.
I'm always saddened by people who think Christianity is something to be "explored," as if treating each other decently would never occur to anyone unless they read the New Testament. Christianity does not have a lock on so-called 'Christian' ideals. I have found that most religions, Christian or not, betray their own ideals on a daily basis.
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@CF
I do not disagree with what you write here. There are many good and moral people who are not Christians (and many who call themselves Christians who do not live these values).
Christianity is much more than a moral code. As you noted, we do not need it to be moral. Christianity is an invitation to share in the life of God. To know God is a great joy, even though in my littleness I cannot know Him completely and certainly without His help.
My hope that everyone might discover this joy. May we be be free to do so, undistracted by political posturing and the sins of others.
The mixture of religion and politics almost always ultimately leads to coercion which paradoxically will hasten the decline of religion. The alliance of conservative Christianity and the Republican Party will prove to be a mistake for both.
1
Douthat says that the survey gives secular liberals reason to fear the decline of Christianity. But correlation is not causation. Someone who is credulous, married, and disposed toward civic engagement may be more likely to attend church than one who is not.
1
Since about 1979 when the Christian right and the GOP started their alignment, the GOP has been able to use them as a tool to forward conservative causes more than the Christians get any support from the GOP for traditional Christian positions of helping the poor and charity. Even the position on abortion was not a talking point for the Christian right before 1979 only the Catholic church held an anti-abortion position of the mainstream religions before 1979.
10
I am much more hopeful that we will see a post-conservative Christianity than the other way around.
8
I don't have a lot of confidence that the church-going metric has as much meaning as Douthat wants to give it. People are notoriously unreliable in describing their own attitudes --especially about race -- when they know those attitudes are frowned on. Past history has not exactly demonstrated a strong relationship between conservative evangelical Christianity and racial tolerance. But even if Douthat is correct that regular church-going correlates to less tribal, more tolerant attitudes, here is a different interpretation of that relationship: Conservatives are by nature tribal, authoritarian, intolerant, and fearful and only regular church attendance can temper those impulses and prevent a full-on slide into fascism. That seems to say a lot more about the nature of conservatism than the influence of Christianity.
23
@NCSense
In many communities, attending church on Sunday morning is akin to attending high school football on Friday night.
Both are principally social activities, with moral concerns, if any, tertiary to a sense of tribal belonging and an abundance of local comfort food.
3
@NCSense Thank you for the perfect summation of conservatism: tribal, authoritarian, intolerant, and fearful--the antithesis of the founding principles of this nation.
2
@theresa He said " by nature …." That is not a summation of conservatism. Briefly, conservatism wants to maintain the policies and procedures that have successful throughout history.
What Ross does not explore is why religious conservatives don't bolt the GOP to Democrats faced with the of ill-fitting option of supporting Trump. The bottom line is they have no where to go - Democrats have been inhospitable and hostile to their very existence and seek to curtail the practice of religious beliefs in the public square. As long as more-secular GOPers value the need for religious liberty, Christian conservatives will have a vital role in the GOP.
1
@Chris Why do conservatives feel it necessary to practice their beliefs in the public square? Don't they have their own churches and a "personal relationship" with Jesus? What you really are saying is that they want to insinuate their religion into the public sphere where it does not belong.
6
@Chris "Religious liberty" does not equate with evangelicalism. It is only recently that Christian conservatives, under the influence of the evangelical movement which exhorts them to prosthelytize, have demanded the right to push their interpretation of Scripture into law, into schools and into every part of the unwilling public square. The Constitutional right to religious practice has always been assured and sufficient to "protect the practice of religious beliefs". The anger among evangelical Christians is the resistance among non-Christians of every stripe to having evangelical practices imposed upon them. You have a right to your own religious practice but you do not have a right to use the law to inflict it on others. Democrats have upheld this civil protection for nonbelievers. It does not make them "hostile to [Christians'] very existence."
It is hysterical hyperbole like that which reinforces the defensive push back from nonevangelicals. And it is the evangelical support for a filthy lying adulterous criminal bigot like Donald Trump, due to the belief that he will allow evangelicals more power to push their agenda on the unwilling, that provides proof of their willingness to abandon the teachings of Christ in favor of the means to oppress others.
Be careful what you wish for.
6
They deserve each other.
I think good hearts are the key to a civilized society. Some folks who have been poorly treated cloak themselves in religiosity as an unknowing recipe for feeling better about themselves, and may adopt extreme positions discounting the suffering of others in an unknowing bid to make themselves feel right about themselves. Others are in the loving spirit of Christ. It is truly truly difficult to know what is right when adherence to ideals amounts to dishing out pain and risk to others. I think it takes good hearts to find the way past such problems.
5
It is always a matter of individual interpretation when it comes to religion including Christian sects. The only message that still has a broad listening audience today is the Ten Commandments that are the foundation of laws in America, and countries across the world.
Perfect example is that my Catholic faith says we are all brothers and sisters. You break that down in human terms and the message becomes everyone is my brother or sister deserving my love and respect except for that guy next door.
3
Sorry, but in secular nations at least four of the ten are excluded. Specifically the first, and last, two.
In fact even the prohibition against adultery is no longer enshrined in secular law, so we are generally down to five.
As these five all concern doing specific harm to others, or society as a whole, they also tend to be found in cultures that were not founded in western religions.
@Andrea Landry: Alas, Moses took the name of God in vain himself when he attributed his own commandments to God.
Douthat uses "secularization" as a quick draw weapon against modernity. But it doesn't fit here.
What he labels as "securlarization of conservatism" strikes me rather as the gangsterization of global economics that followed the collapse of communism.
Where principles of sharing, mutual assistance, and not taking advantage of a neighbor's distress -- principles nurtured by old tyme religion -- used to directly influence politics, three decades of free market absolutism have taken their toll. Abandonment of even biblical injunctions against usury and other forms of economic predation have shifted political power from the people to a vicious cabal of economic warlords.
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Oh, I hoped for an article articulating the importance of the concept of separation of the church and the state. Alas! What exactly does "religious republicans" mean? Should that be not a split discourse, "what does being religious" and "what does being republican" mean? Enough of this politics riding on the back of religion and religion riding on the back of politics.
Let us not confuse and blend "freedom of religion" with "separation of the church and the state."
29
@Cemal Ekin: The whole Kavanaugh nomination travesty danced around the fact that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion" is the most sadly neglected phrase in the US Constitution, as amended.
3
@Cemal Ekin "Let us not confuse and blend "freedom of religion" with "separation of the church and the state."
Religion and Politics--the Two-backed beast.
1
This story is fascinating but tiptoes around what is increasingly obvious and needs to be said outright: racism, fear, and loathing comprise the common denominator for support of the Great Orange Nothingness. It does beg a hugely important question: if not Christianity, or some other broadly appealing religious worldview, what will underwrite the assumption about the basic goodness of one's fellow American (and writ large, about one's fellow human beings) that was the default for people of my paternal grandmother and father's generations? Without an abiding faith in that basic goodness, how can any society survive for very long?
21
Ummmmm, Ross, take a deep breath. This is a bit convoluted and over thought. No religion has EVER been logically consistent with the ideals of its founders. No religion has EVER truly been kind to non believers. Religious leaders have ALWAYS aligned themselves with secular power structures. All religions have ALWAYS protected their own institutions before protecting their believers. The idea that religion means kindness is a recent construct. Not that long ago, it required human sacrifice. It’s my personal observation that religion is a recent evolutionary adaptation that serves to rationalize much older primate (like us) behaviors: living in defensive, strongly hierarchical social groups, kindness to their own group members, suspicion of, and hostility towards other groups, combat with other similar groups, etc. We CAN get around this, but believing it’s easy is a fool’s errand.
40
@stevevelo: Most religion promulgates the utterly groundless proposition that nature has a personality that responds to it.
@stevevelo
" Not that long ago, it required human sacrifice. "
Still does. Women are required in many religions to give up their health and freedom to religious principles. In Africa, many have died of AIDS sacrificed to the Catholic church's insistence that using condoms is wrong. Then of course there's the radical fringe that thinks - and occasionally acts on the belief - that doctors who perform abortions should be shot.
A small point: I take strong issue with Mr. Douthat's flat use of the term "religious liberty." Christians in this country have complete freedom to practice their religion. What they should not have, but increasingly do, is the right to impose their religious beliefs and practices on others.
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@Bluesq, yes, "free exercise" of religion means that one's participation must not be coerced. Congress is not barred from enacting legislation that bans religious coercion.
2
@Bluesq I agree. I wonder how Americans would react when/if Muslims were to go door to door to bring "the good Word", something which I endure on a regular basis from Christians whether I want it or not! Not to mention all the legal stuff certain Christians are trying to stuff down everyone's throat, regardless of individual beliefs.
@Bluesq Yes, I think the correct term would ,"Religious over-reach," rather than "religious liberty."
The conclusions of this poll, offered by the columnist, are the opposite of what I've thought. Perhaps there's a difference between secularism among urban and rural people, because the urban-rural divide still seems to be a dominant factor (Just look at that detailed NY Times map of the election results. Stunning.). Famously, the most segregated time of American life is Sunday morning. White and Christian identity seems to me to be the unifying factor of their tribalism. But I could be wrong.
These new rural secularists have still been raised to believe morality comes from supernaturalism. Maybe they think life's a free-for-all now. I've always strongly believed secular communitarianism is the solution.
The breakdown of our sense of community seems a less plausible reason for so-called populism than a reason for the torching of the public sector. I say "so-called" because a movement that empowers a nationalist, sectarian oligarchy isn't populism. It's fascism.
18
This leaves out one demographic, which is non-church going but very religious-identifying. This describes many of my relatives, who tend to watch sermons on TV and listen to the radio, and are quite openly racist. The church-going divide seems meaningful, but perhaps it has more to do with community/involvement than religious belief per se. Douthat hints at this with the references to social capital.
It's important, because "church-going" doesn't capture the larger demographic reached by movies, TV, religious popular culture, all fervently claiming the label evangelical and getting a lot of money and influence because of it.
19
@M, yeah I would imagine they are all holding their breath for the Haley Baldwin / Justin Beiber wedding. Spare me.
For many of us who consider ourselves 'spiritual' as opposed to 'religious', it seems clear that Christianity as a formal religion has pretty much lost its way. Christ's teachings are forgotten and when even when considered they seem old fashioned.
Many Christians, not all, have bought into supporting politicians who pander to them on divisive wedge issues like women's rights, abortion, gay marriage, racism, and others. Why? Because it works. Life is cheapened. Society split. Lies and corruption are ignored or accepted.
It is possible that this broad based effort to destroy western civil society is a concerted effort driven by the Trump, Putin,, Murdoch and many others to gain and keep power in order to promote and insure their corruption. That sounds like a conspiracy but how else to explain it? A fragmented program on their part would not be as effective.
For what it's worth.
38
Two things have been clear for years.
First, the typical American is slightly right of center on most things; and the only thing holding down that reality is the mainstream media dominated by more liberal voices.
Second, the Republican Party sits well to the right of most Americans and conservative Americans, just as the Democratic Party sits well to the left of most Americans.
You can almost see the seeds of a new governing party that upholds the values of most Americans, those very solid people who earn a paycheck, live on the coasts and in-between, value people for their actions rather than education/social status, and see our future as built on enduring and incremental betterment rather than the thrashing about of our current activist cohort.
It is fun to dream, but the way in which the country has strangled any change or threats to status quo are disheartening.
So we are left with a choice between Socialism and Populism.
Very sad. And very inadequate based on the people I encounter each week around the country and representing many economic and educational sectors.
9
@Stuart, Nothing has changed since Will Rogers denied political affiliation because the Democratic Party isn't a real political party.
@Stuarth
I believe you have your assumption backward based on your comments. The typical American has always been slightly left of center. Republicans have worked very hard to gerrymander voting districts to their advantage because they know relatively equal districts will tend toward Democrats. And you are ‘disheartened’ by the way the country strangles change or threats to the status quo. That is a perfect definition of Republicanism. I am willing to admit the left may want to move too far too fast, but socialism is not their goal - pluralism is the goal. What we have now is elitism and fascism.
1
Douhat's connection between secularization and Trump voting is oversimplistic. In civilized parts of the U.S., there are plenty of civic-minded atheists, not to mention liberal, socially activist Christians. In rural and southern areas, however, it's generally either be an evangelical or be socially ostracized. The clannishness of evangelical parts of the country contributes majorly to the alienation and anger of alt-right types. Religion has always been deformed by specific cultures which precede it; physical and social survival (i.e. tribalism) trump lip service to religious ideals.
34
One of the elements that has not been adequately measured in the micro-analysis of voters is whether left-handed voters voted differently from right-handed voters - and if so, why? As well, ambidextrous voters have not been asked how they voted - were they more likely to be centrists in their thinking?
All of the after-the-fact analysis serves little purpose.
I would anticipate that many voters, if answering honestly would say about the 2016 election: "It's simply amazing that, in a country the size of the USA, our choices boiled down to the 2 candidates that were presented by each of the major parties. Wow."
11
@Maurice Gatien Thank you for adding sarcastic humor to the mix. Great analogy.
1
This line helps answer a question for me - how did Trump win the nomination in a party that seems to have so many proclaimed Christians: "but only about a third of Trump’s 2016 voters are in church on a typical Sunday, and almost half attend seldom or not at all." So those who truly follow God are a minority within the Republican Party, and there votes were fragmented among many decent candidates. Trump's appeal was to secular R's who make up the bulk of the Party. Christian R's who expect to influence politics should take note.
As far as the general election, Hillary Clinton was a non-starter for most Christian Republicans, largely because Cecile Richards was on her right hand during the entire campaign. Yes, abortion is that big of a deal. And it is for liberals, too, as we are seeing play out in the Supreme Court battle. Most Christians I know voted for Trump to get what it looks like will happen - a more conservative Supreme Court, and other courts as well. It was a type of Faustian Bargain I wasn't willing to make - I voted third party.
5
@Paul Overby
I'd say you made a serious faustian bargain in voting third party. Apparently you didn't understand the possible outcome - you probably thought, like most of us, that Hillary was going to win.
But now you should acknowledge that voting for a third party helped put Trump in office. Thanks. It would have been SO much worse to have a president who was competent, sane, disciplined, educated, experienced, accomplished, thoughtful, diplomatic, and level-headed. Good thing you didn't make a "faustian bargain."
11
@Paul Overby: Everybody knows that the various emoluments for preaching that nature has a human personality defy "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion". The whole argument is really about money.
@Paul Overby
Attempting to wash your hands of this by voting an unwindable third party route helped elect Trump. They did what you did, made a bargain of the "best" of the worst. They got what they wanted; you did not.
1
The Trump supporters form an "odd couple" of Evangelicals opposed to abortion and secularists opposed to immigrants and people of color. The only thing that united them in 2016 is their opposition to the positions taken by the Democrats on the single issue that motivates them. (Trump's verbal support for religion is the 21st Century equivalent of "Paris is worth a mass."
These two groups will support anyone who backs their positions of the issue that matters to them. But they could not have elected Trump on their own - Trump needed the votes of others who (a) demonized Hillary, (b) felt ignored economically and socially by the "elites", or (c) wanted to shake up the system. It is those people who the Democrats must win back.
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@John Graubard
"The Trump supporters form an 'odd couple' of Evangelicals opposed to abortion and secularists opposed to immigrants and people of color."
I must say I do not understand why people don't see the connection here, or find this puzzling.
Don't people get it? Think about these two statements together for just a moment.
More white babies! Fewer brown and black babies!
This unholy alliance is not some new phenomenon that arose with Trump, he's just the evil epitome of something long in the making.
1
@John Graubard, It is really quite schizoid for people who oppose immigration to also oppose family planning that would reduce migratory tendencies.
You can twist and turn this any way you want, but there is one incontrovertible truth here: these Trump supporters who making this "bet" may go to Church regularly, but they are not Christian. Being authentically Christian and supporting Trump are mutually exclusive. One negates the other.
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@cfxk The No True Scotsman fallacy. To believe this, one needs to ignore both the quite horrific teachings of the Bible and how its adherents have largely behaved over the last two millennia. Trump is entirely in line with Christian values, which explains why they have embraced him so.
2
@cfxk They would argue with you on this point. As I told my Christian friend who did not vote for Trump - they all say that they love Jesus. Religion is subjective.
"Being authentically Christian and supporting Trump are mutually exclusive."
True.
In fact, Trump does not even offer the advantage of "the end justifies the means," because none of his ends are particularly Christian.
There is no condemnation of abortion or homosexuality in the New Testament. There is, however, a lot promoting love, generosity, feeding the poor, forgiveness, not being judgmental, etc.
2
Actually, churchgoing does not make a Christian. It gives the churchgoer the opportunity to claim they are Christian, while not being Christian. The more secular term Evangelical fits much better. The only thing most Evangelicals evangelize about is Trump.
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@Richard Mclaughlin: Evangelism preaches that there are post-mortal rewards for convincing other people of the groundless and preposterous.
@Steve Bolger Unfortunately the politicians (Ryan & others) who spout religiosity are 2 faced and don’t have any moral spine. When will we face the fact that religion does not belong in the political discourse in this country . I am secular & I vote.
@Bob Yes, Legislation that ratifies or enforces faith-based beliefs is flat out unconstitutional in the US, but "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion" is the most scoffed-at law here. In theory, all legislation must rest on some kind of tangible and reproduceable fact.
I think Mr Douthat misses the point rather singularly here. Those who recognize religion is more an institutional relic of less-scientifically informed cultures than an intellectually viable framework for modern life can either seek new structures for ordering civilization or cling to the tribalism and intolerance that were always the dark side of all conservatism everywhere. Conservatism with the illusion of God has a soul and a need for moral judgements; conservatism without it is literally soulless. Modern liberalism serves many people of faith. But modern liberalism is also a comfortable home for those without faith who seek a humanistic path to a better world. I think the openness of modern liberalism to both strands is why polling of post-religious conservatives reveals such moral darkness. Secular humanists of goodwill have no place in conservatism today. That is a real problem for the GOP and for the modern world writ large. It is not just a Christian problem.
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@Andrew S.E. Erickson
What you said is plain and simple truth and strikes to the core of the the existential fight we are in. Well done and thanks.
I am old enough to have the privilege of direct wisdom from those who lived and suffered through the 1st half of the 1900s.
Old enough to have participated in the struggles for racial, sexual, and gender liberty and equality.
Old enough to firsthand witness the damage and folly of authoritarian ideologically/plutocratic driven war and aims (Vietnam). Seeing how the undertone of our racial prejudices allowed us abhorrent freedom of conscience as we did atrocious things. And how comfortably and readily our leaders could boldfaced lie to the People they served.
And I learned how immensely valuable an honest professional free press is to our democracy.
And I learned how valuable religious leaders who somehow construed their god to be one of love, tolerance, understanding, compassion, and empathy were to righting wrongs and marching toward greater justice and freedom.
I was raised RCC but I am a scientifically based atheist who has little like and no need for today's RCC.
Still I hold close what I gleaned years ago from parents, Nuns, Brothers, and Priests.
To put it this way: they went through the motions condemning our youthful male sexual voyage. BUT if we were mean/selfish/uncaring to others especially the less fortunate - well that raised REAL indignation in them!
The only place for me now morally is the D Party!
1
@Andrew S.E. Erickson: Secularism rejects magic.
Great! The division of the right means, hopefully, less chances of them imposing their obsolete values on others. From abortion rights to civil rights, to a good safety net, to healthcare for all. Freedom from the stress and catastrophic results if something goes wrong.
23
Doesn't it make a difference what type of church a Trump voter attends? If they were to attend say, a "prosperity gospel" megachurch, that is as about as intimate as the Superbowl, the appeal of a vulgarian who flaunts his questionable wealth might be understandable. In a smaller setting, where there is some chance you might encounter the same person, even a minority, more than once in your lifetime, there is a chance for empathy to develop.
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We have taught our children the fables of ancient civilizations to think of them as life lessons, universal truths that apply today as much as they did in their own time. The newer European versions ," Aesop's" are called fables, the older European versions, "Norse, Celtic, and Roman" are called myths. Other civilizations had their own versions of universal truths. Those myths were the religions of the people of their time. Christianity will follow the same path if humans somehow are able to continue to populate this planet. To think otherwise is nothing but self delusion. Those who forget the past are doomed to relive it. We are all made from star dust, and destined to be recycled until the end of time itself.
36
@Ed Clark: Our "souls" are the software each of us develops to cope with the world we are born into, for better or worse. They cannot be separated from the hardware of the brain they are encoded into, and die with the brain that has recorded them.
Religions especially Christianity fragmented into sects beginning with the council of Nicaea in Constantine’s time and later with the Reformation and in the 1800s with the Great Awakening or Fundamentalism. Fundamentalism is fragmenting begining with the 1925 Scopes Trial, and now with political Republican partisanship. There is no countervailing force so I would look for more fragmentation
18
@Peace100, The Nicene Council sifted through all the may interpretation of the life of Jesus to form a standardized rationale for the imperial government of Rome.
On this subject, I've let Blaise Pascal be my guide.
If there is a supernatural element to human existence, a 'God' if you will, then there is at least some hope for humans.
If there is no supernatural element, then Darwin's theory that humans are highly evolved apes will probably apply.
I can't come up with a third option.
But I do think that this 'trumps' all other considerations, including my 'white identity'.
5
@Kenneth Johnson
I can think of a third option--that there is no God, but there is still hope for humans and humanity. It will be hard going to get there, and it might require evolution to push us in the right direction, but it is the one that I aspire towards.
38
@Kenneth Johnson: no ritual or faith can alter the physical reality that the soul everyone creates to cope with the world we are born into dies with our brains, but can be preserved in part as teachings left for future generations.
@James R Dupak, We are the most software-driven animals on Earth. Our software is preserved and perpetuated by our cultures.
Concerning the argument that "support for populism correlates with a kind of communal breakdown, in which secularization is one variable among many leaving people feeling isolated and angry, and drawing them to the ersatz solidarity of white identity politics."
Mr. Douthat, disappointingly if unsurprisingly, accepts without cavil the idea that secularization causes isolation and anger. Correlation, though, is not causation.
Mr. Douthat, not everything gets better with more religion or more religiosity. That's the argument you make again and again, but your case always fails because you start by assuming your premise. I'm not sure you even recognize this enormous blind spot in your world view.
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@G Indeed. Mr Douthat's columns are textbook examples of the logical fallacy of begging the question.
Conservative Christians may be more tolerant of blacks than secular conservatives, but they are less tolerant of nonbelievers. Nonbelievers exist to them primarily as people who have not yet accepted their sinfulness and need for salvation. Nonbelievers who do not think of themselves in these terms are completely opaque to believers, who are sure that the nonbelievers are just hiding from others and perhaps from themselves their lostness and need for salvation.
Many believers have no curiosity about how nonbelievers (and mainstream Christians are nonbelievers) see the world, and are very bad at adjusting their sales pitches to appeal to how the nonbelievers actually think or feel. If these thoughts and feelings do not fit within the Christian categories, they are not perceived or recognized and are rather ignored and dismissed. It is pride or sinfulness that holds people back from their God, and not a different way of understanding God.
19
@sdavidc9: Religion is defiance of the actual way nature self-organizes, from the elementarily simple to the fractally complex.
@sdavidc9
How would characterize your toleration of believers? Do you have firsthand knowledge of their beliefs? Do you have a diverse group of believers in your social group?
I hear much about the openness of the secular Liberal, but often a very qualified bit of evidence of same.
This is very good work Ross. Quite objective. Thank you for your efforts.
I'm one who believes that: "With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil - that takes religion." I loathe that this is so. However I've no desire to turn principled and good religious people into unprincipled and bad or evil non-believers.
Nobody needs to be religious to be a good person, but being religious can be the vehicle for someone living a good life, in most respects - in the opinion of myself and most others. Besides, though not my experience, many believers are born into their religion and cannot just slough it off like an old skin, even if I, anybody else, or even they, wanted them to.
Secularism implies lack of bias for or against being religious, and for or against being a believer of any one religion rather than of any other. However tolerance of non-believers and of believers of other faiths, and moderation of religiosity in keeping with modern knowledge, by believers, is paramount for a secular, religiously diverse modern society to work long term.
Frankly, support for "libertarian economics" flatly contradicts the words and example of Jesus of Nazareth, and right-wing Christians in the US also have insufficient respect for the definition of secularism above. Being "anti-social democratic" and "quasi-theocratic" is scarcely better than being populist and racist in my opinion.
46
@GRW The "authority" of religion rests on projection of a human personality onto all of nature that is completely undetectable by science.
The author seems to attempt to give credit to the Church for the relatively less racism of Church going Republicans to non-Church going Republicans. but there's an important uncontrolled variable in the two groups which is that there were less college educated members in the non-Church going group so we don't know if their racism is related to being less religious or less educated.
67
Ross, where were they going to go? There wasn't anyone running on your platform of "The Pope isn't Catholic enough."
48
None of this will matter, because the Supreme Court is a fossil responsive only to each justice's historical mythology. It won't matter where the public is tending religiously. The future on social issues is being cast in stone.
20
@AIR: The Supreme Court has lost all of its credibility already by neglecting to enforce "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion" on the constitutional scofflaws in Congress.
The Evangelical alliance with conservative politics has been toxic for as long as I can remember, certainly since long before Evangelical leaders agreed that 9/11 was God's punishment for the country lowering its guard against the"gay agenda." Sadly, the suggestion that Trump's "core appeal depends on the de-Christianization of conservatism" is exactly wrong, as our recent Supreme Court nominations and countless other appointees of this administration make clear. The alliance is the ultimate exemplar of the Art of the Deal with the Devil. Its dissolution would be a blessing for both Christianity and conservatism, but it is nowhere in sight.
73
DJT is not conservative or a Christian, he’s an opportunist who makes both think he’s one of them.
1
By voting for Trump Christian fundamentatists lost whatever moral ground they thought they occupied. A piety mask fell off revealing a profound hypocrisy. Nothing they proclaim can ever justify that vote. What they proved is that any idiot or immoral individual can get their vote as long as he loudly asks for repeal of Roe vs Wade.
272
Bingo!
@serban. You hit the nail on the head!!
@serban, All they did was make a deal with a devil that revealed their own perfidy.
1
Roiss is drawing conclusions that the data may support, but just as easily may not. Serems as if he has an "anti=-secularization" agenda here and is bending the data to conform to the point of iew he has long mainatined. For one thing, the response of the church goers may be far more nuanced than Ross believes. How do the church goers understand the questions about race. If they held more enlightened views about race than the grotesqueries Trump has long spewed, than why, oh why, did they vote for him! There is more to this data than meets Mr. Douthat's eye.
35
@bruce Clearly they live, and votes, by the assumption that "the enemy of my enemy is my friend", when in fact the enemy of their enemies are also their own enemy
The Cato study quoted did NOT test for actual attitudes on racism. It had no methodology for even attempting such testing. It tested for claimed attitudes on racism, which here would be expected to diverge far from actual attitudes. In particular, as has been tested repeatedly since before Douthat was born, you expect that someone asked about his racial attitudes in this way will express what will make his group look to be following its high standards. If you hear sermons on God's love for all races and sing hymns about it, you will typically answer the Cato questions in a way different from what you really feel. And if an evangelical is a Trump supporter, we have actual evidence rather than just some empty words what is truly in his or her heart.
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@Marvant Duhon
'So true there is no indication that the study used a validated inventory that can truly assess the implicit bias or internalized racism.
As someone who was raised by progressive parents, parents who baptized their children as Unitarians, with a Mother who gave me Bertrand Russell's, "Why I am Not a Christian" for my 13th birthday, I marvel at people like the Evangelicals who continue to support am amoral President Trump.
They have such a strong belief, such an unwavering faith in a "leader" who:
Takes children from their parents and puts them in internment camps
Grabs women by the you-know-what
Brags about deaths in a natural disaster
Mocks disabled people
Bans people from our country who have other religious beliefs
Takes money from the middle class and poor in order to give a massive tax cut to the wealthiest among us
Uses vulgar language, and then lies about it
Threatens people with violence
Lies
Lies some more
Kowtows to authoritarians
Supports a pedophile for a Senate seat
Uses his office to enrich himself, and his family
Has an affair with a Playboy model, and then pays her off
Lies about that affair/payoff
Has an affair with a porn star, and then pays her off
Lies about that affair/payoff
These Trump evangelicals are not Christians. They are members of a pathetic cult, led by a corrupt, sleazy, amoral President Trump.
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@V Liberal Christians would agree with you, V.
We give thanks to God for His goodness and
lovingkindness to us and to all people everywhere.
We hear the Gospel well taught in almost all of our
churches and we realize that the policies and
legislation of the Democratic Party are much
closer to the intent of the Gospel, than are those
of the Republican Party. We are deeply saddened
that Evangelical "Christians" support the President,
and most often the Party (R.), which seems so
amoral, unenlightened and ungodly on so many fronts.
Scottish Theologian, USC professor and author
of "He Who Lets Us Be, A Theology of Love"
indicates that the most breathtaking affirmation in the Bible is that God is love.
Ross: May you find a path for continuing your journey of faith. There is a vast and beautiful
landscape beyond Fundamentalism and
Roman authoritarianism.
69
@V
My wife and I attend church a bit more than once a month. Our pastor's sermons are always derived from the words in the Bible. Sure, he puts his own interpretation on these passages but doesn't veer very far from the original meaning. Secondly, he and his sermons are about as far from an evangelical representation of religion as you can get. Our congregation and its leaders are very welcoming and tolerant of all lifestyles, races, etc. Yet that is not the message, it's just a side effect of the teachings of Jesus himself.
11
@V, I couldn't agree more. Fake Christians. It's infuriating.
1
Some good news? Christianity on the decline. We should be so lucky.
85
@Paul
Yes, the "after Christianity" phrase was certainly cheering, especially on a Sunday morning.
The CC is working on it.
Right, the Cato Institute. Why should I take this seriously when it comes from a Koch fun fact factory for self righteous cognitively dissonant oligarchs.
It’s interesting watching Mr. Stephens dog paddle through the Trump Storm given his complicity in the cultural dissonance of the last decade on two continents.
40
@Dwight McFee
You are correct that the Kochs fund what benefits them rather than truth.
I have some training in methodology, and since the 1960's I have had a personal interest in racism, including in those who profess not to be racist when they are. There are methodologies to study true attitudes. The Cato Institute asked only about EXPRESSED ATTITUDES - how the respondent wants himself and his group to be perceived.
54
@Dwight McFee What does Mr. Stephens have to do with this article? It was written by Ross Douthat.
@R. Gaudio
Gaudio is correct.
The statement by McFee is appropriate to Douthat, who wrote this article.
Bret Stephens is a more recent dog paddler, but certainly a dog paddler.
Conservative Christians didn’t vote for Trump despite who he is; they voted for him exactly because of who he is. They love his vulgarity, they love his infidelity, they love his rapacious greed. They love all of this because they aren’t really Christian; which is to say, nothing they preach even remotely resembles the teachings found in the New Testament. They hijacked a religion and turned it into something that would be unrecognizable to the man it is based on.
368
@Jim It wasn't conservative media that created the myth of Trump as the great business tycoon it was mainstream television and the theoretically more liberal of the four major tv networks at that.
8
@Sam E IMO, it was corporate media that made Trump look successful, just as it was corporate media’s insatiable quest for ratings over journalism that propelled him to the presidency. Neither liberal nor conservative, simply soulless and unaccountable corporatism.
@Jim This is a bit simplistic. I know an evangelical who is personally kind and doesn't love Trump's negative personal characteristics. But, like her co-religionists, she approves his appointment of "godly judges." They call him Cyrus, after the Biblical Persian king who protected the Jews, and can't admit they've made a deal with the devil. One ethical foundational principle which they don't consider is that the ends cannot justify the means.
1
But Obama said that these were people married to their Bibles and guns, right?
3
@TD Obama said the fearful c"ling to their guns and religion."
Never a truer phrase spoken.
@TD
The word was "cling" not "married." And, yes, they do.
@TD he wasn't wrong. Just check out Pennsyltucky.
Maybe we should begin by defining the meaning of Christian and I don't think going to church once a week or even five times a week makes someone Christian.
A Christian is a follower of Christ. When asked what were the most important commandments, Christ responded:
-Love God with all thy heart, with all thy soul and all thy mind.
-Love Thy Neighbor as thyself.
The so-called Christians supporting Trump are not Christians. You can't hate and call yourself Christian. You can't call yourself Christian and ally yourself with someone whose core policies come from hatred.
Thank God, the Pharaoh in ancient Egypt did not imprison immigrant kids crossing Egypt border, for Christ family immigrated to Egypt after his birth to protect him.
Christians who support Trump should go back and read their bible. I would advise them to focus more on the New Testament than they do the Old Testament.
198
As mentioned in my previous comment, it's important to define what being Christian mean.
A Christian is a follower of Christ the Son of God.
When asked what were the most important commandments, Christ responded:
-Love God with all thy heart, with all thy soul and all thy mind.
-Love thy neighbor.
First, the only word of value that appears more than once in both commandments is Love.
Second Christ did not say Love thy brother or sister instead he said: Love thy neighbor. We all agree that Christian consider that God looks upon them from above. From some point in space, the Earth is not bigger than a tennis ball. Meaning in the eye of God, the person who lives in Australia is my neighbor, in the same way, the person who lives in the unit above me is.
Mr. Douthat defines Christianity by church attendance. Christianity, in my opinion, should be defined by how much people follow Christ, especially the two most important commandments.
I will pray for those Christians who support Trump so that they can find their way back to what Christ is all about. Love
16
@Chaks
And especially avoid the Book of Leviticus!
Easy to say don’t focus on the Old Testament but focus on the new. Do you consider yourself tolerant? The “Old” Testament was Christ’s Bible when he was born, when he lived, when he taught and when he died and Christ did not reject it. You had a great message until exposing an underlying belief which is all too commonly accepted and perpetrated by Churches.
Usually the churched want more people to go to church. By voting for Trump and supporting his insanity they are not going to gain any converts.
39
Ross's unspoken point: the religious types who voted for Trump are not all that racist: they just accept racism for greater goods. And so they voted for Trump. Now, Ross: tell us who you voted for in '16.
92
@Big Frank - What you don't about religious types is a lot. We don't accept racism. We also don't accept socialism which is why church goers didn't vote for Hillary.
@Big Frank
That's it in a nutshell, isn't it? These people are willing to ignore the profoundly disturbing behaviors, criminality (probably treason), destruction of our country via cancerous policies of Republicans and this administration in particular in order to advance an incredibly narrow and rigid personal agenda based on only a few issues -- guns, abortions, taxes. Most don't seem to see the forest for the trees, and they don't seem to realize (or don't care) that the Republican party are arsonists striking matches to burn it down.
@Keith - so you don't accept the armed forces, the highway system, police, firemen, medicare, etc.?
Racism plus Spite plus Gullibility EQUALS the Trump Voter.
PERIOD.
136
Needless to say frequency of church attendance and perceived religiosity of self are not the same thing. The survey in that regard is fundamentally flawed. As it is with patriotism so it is with religiosity: those who understand it and practice it the least often consider themselves the most devout.
36
This President got ''elected'' with less of the popular vote, and by only 77k votes over 3 states for the electoral college)
That is of course, with help from foreign power, where several people (so far) have been indicted and pleaded guilty to illegal means of winning that election.
Furthermore, hard right religious folk voted for their judges to reverse Roe - nothing more.
They got what they bargained for, but it is not going to last. - for several reasons.
First, this President and administration is going to implode in on itself - either by its own hands or by criminal indictment and/or impeachment.
Secondly, there will be a HUGE push after for the 2020 election to get to the 67 votes in the Senate for impeachment of the judges on the Supreme Court that were unlawfully (presumption from above) put on said court.
Lastly, secularism, or Atheism in general (meself included) is the fastest growing segment of the population. There is going to come a time (I give it a decade) where religious entities are no longer going to be tax exempt - which will be the final nail in coffin. (sorry couldn't resist)
Organized religion is dead - especially after hypocritically supporting and voting for this President and administration.
60
As long as organized religion can provide reliable voting blocks it will be maintained in place. In NY for example, the Orthodox Jewish community in various locales votes as a bloc. Lawsuits have been brought for several years forcing Yeshivas to provide a commensurate secular curriculum, rather than graduating men who can barely write in English, yet despite numerous stillborn investigations, virtually no action has been taken by the city or state, who always seem to need more time. The votes are just too valuable to forsake for a little literacy.
3
@stan
Indeed. I can only imagine all the blocks there are for the various factions all through the different Burroughs. However, those blocks are becoming less and less of a force as simple demographics take over. (especially against those that cannot read properly)
We will get there. Just a matter of time.
@FunkyIrishman
You are speaking my language, Funky. I read Douthat only for laughs, now. This article is a fine example of micro analyzing the utterly irrelevant.
I hope to live long enough to see the day that tax exemptions are ripped out of the cold dead hands of every one of these 'religious' institutions. As a lapsed and recovering Catholic, it irritates me mightily to see nuns on picket lines. I become absolutely enraged when priests instruct their parishioners to vote for the pro life candidate.
This is their last gasp. I hope they enjoy wearing their little MAGA hats whether they call themselves Christians, or just love clinging to their guns and whiteness. Their days are numbered.
1
Didnt the evangelical community ever notice that they were the "moral" cover for those rallies?
Kind of hard to miss the rhetoric from Trump on down.
36
None of the "concern" that Christians should have about Douthat's facts should come as any surprise. Trump has no religion whatsoever and never has had any (oddly, in sharp contrast to HRC, who is quite devout), and virtually every word he speaks and every thought he has is a direct and forceful spit in the face to the gospel of the New Testament.
Douthat says that "secular liberals should fear" the "dechristianization" that we see reflected in Trump supporters. Believe me, we do fear Trump supporters and their immorality, but not as a harbinger of dechristianization. When civilization finally grows up, so that it no longer needs the inherent deceit, superstition, and authoritarianism of religion at all, and can bring an actual secular, humanistic morality to politics and civic life, then we will fear no more.
61
So what we have here is, at long last, Ross' argument for belief in God. We have two choices, he seems to be claiming, we can either hope to re-Christianize America ( no matter how hard that will be) or we can watch as a brutal white identity spreads throughout the country. This might be something for secular liberals to worry about if 70% of Americans supported Trump. In fact we are seeing that Conservative ideals of the free markets, free people and free labor, no longer engage any considerable body of Republicans. Whether one was a Reagan Republican or a Rockefeller Republican there used to be a way to engage with Conservative ideals that required neither piety or race hate. The fact that the 40% who support Trump do not engage with these values is not a threat to secular liberals. If it is the case that some minority of euro-Americans turn more and more to racial identity they will do what the segregationists did to themselves in the 1960's, they will find that their states are deserted by consumer oriented businesses, their ideals will meet embarrassed silence by the growing multi-cultural minority that will re-construct this country with the fall of Trump. Rather, this evidence should give Ross pause, if his party is to become a party of Protestant fundamentalists and racists just why does he remain so loyal to it?
55
Just thought I'd give a shout-out to progressive, liberal Christians. We're not unicorns; we actually exist. Women clergy, full inclusion of the LGBTQ community...the whole "agenda." And we can back it up with excellent Biblical and theological scholarship. I just didn't want anyone to think that within the Protestant realm, it was conservative, evangelical Christianity or nothing.
265
@Slim Wilson As a member of a progressive congregation (where I will be heading in an hour or so), it is so important to say that churches exist that honor and live the teachings of Jesus. Those teachings emphatically forbid demonizing people of other races, religions, or sexual orientation. They do not embrace the "prosperity Gospel" in which faith in God brings material rewards. Unfortunately neither conservative Catholics like Douthat nor leaders of conservative evangelical denominations seem to recognize the enormous damage the conservative Christian/Republican political alliance has done to American Christianity.
2
@Slim Wilson
This is sooo important and so true. There are many progressive Christians who read in the New Testament a theology of LOVE. Join us at the United Church of Christ!
2
@Slim Wilson
A timely reminder, Slim. Thanks you. This is to say that all Christians aren't bad.
2
We're all missing the important point down here in the comments section. Religious attendance is negatively correlated to white nationalism. We don't get to argue about that, it's statistics. What's interesting is why, and as an atheist, I do actually agree with Ross. Community is one of the most positive aspects religion provides, and if people are turning to white nationalists for that sense of community, that's a serious problem.
42
@RMurphy whole heartedly agree.
@RMurphy
Benjamin Franklin wholeheartedly embraced the idea that communities should have churches for the people to attend. He felt that this would put everyone in everyone else's view and that people would act more in concert with the ideals of community if there was a good chance of being shamed by their neighbors.
The foundation of healthy democracy is an educated populace.
Secular liberals will call for more education to reverse the damage Ross describes - not more Christianization.
82
I’m pretty sure Jesus wouldn’t be a member of the modern GOP. He seemed to actually love people and want to help them. The modern GOP, not so much.
118
I'm pretty sure the modern GOP wouldn't welcome Jesus into the party. An Aramaic speaking Semite, it's doubtful he'd even get a visa to enter the US.
44
@MEM Don't forget he was a leftist in a highly communist fashion. Commy Jesus would most likely be seen as pariah by pretty much everyone in the upper levels of the hierarchy
@Ann P. Modern right-wing "christians" would be shouting "crucify him" the loudest.
This President got ''elected'' with less of the popular vote, and by only 77k votes over 3 states for the electoral college)
That is of course, with help from foreign power, where several people (so far) have been indicted and pleaded guilty to illegal means of winning that election.
Furthermore, hard right religious folk voted for their judges to reverse Roe - nothing more.
They got what they bargained for, but it is not going to last. - for several reasons.
First, this President and administration is going to implode in on itself - either by its own hands or by criminal indictment and/or impeachment.
Secondly, there will be a HUGE push after for the 2020 election to get to the 67 votes in the Senate for impeachment of the judges on the Supreme Court that were unlawfully (presumption from above) put on said court.
Lastly, secularism, or Atheism in general (meself included) is the fastest growing segment of the population. There is going to come a time (I give it a decade) where religious entities are no longer going to be tax exempt - which will be the final nail in coffin. (sorry couldn't resist)
Organized religion is dead - especially after hypocritically supporting and voting for this President and administration.
12
Had people engaged in principled ethical decision making, Trump would never have been elected POTUS. Ethical decision makers would not have permitted gerrymandering of electorates; corrupt financial backing of candidates; candidates who told lies about their competitors, the economic state of the nation, their own credentials and life experience, their reasons for seeking office ...
Ethical decision makers would have actually turned out and voted because the futures of their children and their descendants depended on their honest participation as did the future sustainability and flourishing of the nation.
28
Among the religious, we must distinguish between fundamentalists and others. That distinction made, we will almost certainly find that in addition to being anti-science and nativist, the fundamentalist faction remains strongly pro-Trump.
24
Mr. Douthat, I’m not sure I understand your point exactly. The essay is a bit scattered but I do know that no one is going to win an election in America by running on the anti-Christianity ticket.
14
@Navigator - Trump did. He is the least Christian president in our lifetime. Not only are his words and actions in direct opposition to everything that Christianity espouses, but the man literally doesn’t even go to church!
1
A truly religious person would not vote for any person like Donald Trump. They would look at what he's done and realize that he's broken most of the commandments, has no ethics, no sense of charity, and worst of all, is not himself a religious man. He is unkind, cruel, self centered, intolerant, and untrustworthy. He is worshipping money and that's a sin no matter what religion a person follows.
If one is a true conservative voting for Trump makes no sense at all. He is not conservative. He is destructive. The GOP is destructive. Conservation does not equal destruction for the sake of it.
Going to church or temple or the mosque doesn't indicate religiosity. It means that the person attends, perhaps on a regular basis. I'd evaluate them on what they do outside of the services. Being religious is not an indication of intelligence, tolerance, or charitable feelings. Again, what does the person do? In 2016 quite a few persons voted for a misogynist racist who delights in being a bully. I doubt religion had a lot to do with it. But I'd bet that racism, frustration, and for some, misogyny played a large role in the vote for quite a few.
179
Finally someone who understands conservatism. Conservatism is about making the best of the opportunities we have (however large or small) as well as the opportunities we have going into the future.
Trump and his ilk cannot see this and continue to devastate everything he sees.
4
@Bill & hen3ry,
Maybe, the two of you can help me understand what the conservative politicians, conservative think tanks and conservative SCOTUS has done for the poor, working and middle class over the last 40 years?
Why have the opportunities and future for these groups continuing to decline under the rule of conservative power and governance?
2
Wellll... Cruz thought he could pull off in 2016 Karl Rove’s strategy for W in 2000: it’s one primary at a time, and evangelical voting can get you the nomination, after which you pivot to a national strategy. But trump got those evangelical votes. Trump did not swing to a national strategy; he relied on his poorly educated supporters in the heartland to swing the Electoral College.
The fact is that Ralph Reed, Franklin Grahem, Jerry Falwell Jr., John Hagee, Robert Jeffress, James Dobson, et. al. all endorse trump. He has staged a White House dinner for them. They tell evangelicals how to vote.
It is hilarious that the evangelical movement is under control of the Antichrist, but, there ya go. They love trump. Trump helped out God, whose word is evidently not all that omnipotent, by getting Gorsuch, and now Kavanaugh, onto the Supreme Court bench.
There might be de-Christianization, but more important is the power that evangelical leaders obtain under trump. In the past, Reed told Republicans that he could deliver the votes for them. In return, he got political power. Other evangelical leaders see this possibility in their worship of trump.
Evangelicals will vote for trump; Graham has already absolved trump of his adulterous infidelities. Evangelicals will do what trump says. Don’t kid yourself. They’ll follow trump into hell.
129
I recently tuned into the radio, the conversation was about Trump and evangelical voters and morals. The interviewee said that one shouldn’t “overthink It”.
I thought to myself that the man had no morales. Then in the wrap up they said it was Franklin Graham.
@Charles ...Franklin Graham is sort of the Sarah Huckabee Sanders for God, or at least he envisions himself as such....kind of a God-Whisperer. He'll tell you what God's thinking, in his own cynical, dishonest and really kind of hilarious way. Phonies, ALL!!!
1
@Charles
I was born and raised in western NY State, and rarely encountered the word “Evangelical” until I was stationed as an Air Force Officer at a base near Atlanta in the late 1950s. Frank Graham commented recently that when he hears the term “progressive”, the word “godless” enters his mind. After my experience in the segregated South, when I hear the word “Evangelical”, “Ku Klux Klan” comes to my mind. I find very few positive attributes associated with Evangelicalism, mainly just bigotry. I am secular but try to live by Jesus’s teaching of compassion for humanity and our Threatened environment.
Mr. Douthat,
I completely agree this is a concern. But it also gives me hope that those good people who supported the current administration have a limit they won't cross.
Thanks
SND
1
Um, from a Dem raised in a conservative household, this is just a little too much airbrushing: " his ascent was intimately connected to the secularization of conservatism " with no acknowledgement that there was conservatism before 'religious fanatics' (per Bush 41's diary in 1988):
" There’s something terrible about those who carry it to extremes. They’re scary. They’re there for spooky, extraordinary right-winged reasons. They don’t care about Party. They don’t care about anything. They’re the excesses. They could be Nazis, they could be Communists, they could be whatever. In this case, they’re religious fanatics and they’re spooky. They will destroy this party if they’re permitted to take over. "
https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/what-george-h-w-bush-got-wrong
came to reign in the GOP.
It is understandable that regular church-goers would like to distance themselves from the slobbering kow-towing to Pres. Very Stable Genius 45* evinced by Franklin Graham and Robert Jeffress - now that the Trumpist python is squeezing out of the GOP every last non-Trumpist ion.
Now that GOP'ers have been packing the Courts in record fashion.
But there's no way the church-going crowd which was perfectly fine with Donald the first 2 years, gets to gloss over history and thus their seminal role in what the Rolling Trumpster Fire is wreaking - no avoidance.
27
I'm not sure why you say secular liberals should fear the de-Christianization of conservatism. I would think all secularists (if their secularism is ideological in nature) would welcome such a trend. Liberal and conservatives who are religious should fear it.
17
Given the statistics presented in the article, I think that Douthat is saying that if conservatives stop being religious (as measured by church attendance), they'll become even more extreme (and Trumpist) in their viewpoints. If that is the case, it is indeed something we all need to fear.
12
@Mad-As-Heaven-In totally agree. American so-called Christianity has nothing to recommend: intellectually and artistically barren, narrow-minded, and self-righteous. The sooner it fades away, the better for everybody.
1
The so-called evangelical leaders saw themselves in the White House bowing down to ask God's blessings on the Trump administration. Unfortunately, Trump perceived them to be bowing down to himself. Indeed, he reminded them to use their influence to elect Republicans. There is a reason that the New Testament Christians did not organize to overthrow the Roman government. They knew that individual, life-changing, Christian belief had more power than the authorities and this was proven down through the centuries.
20
It's not Trumps views on "religious liberty" that draws Evangelicals, it his support of Christianity Uber Alles. Perhaps Evangelicals reject white nationalism to an extent, but they whole heartedly embrace the denigration and persecution of religions other than theirs.
50
Does anyone understand Douthat's comment that secular liberals should fear GOP de-christianiztion- or any kind of de- christianization for that matter. Seems any trend that promotes a reductions of citizens that incorporate superstitions and the use of contradictory old books as their go to guides is a good thing.
20
Well, if it all contributes to the decline and fall of the GOP, Trump, and the marginalization of totalitarian conservative Christianity in America it's all good.
23
The sentence with "Caligulan personal life" needs procedural and substantive revision. It's confusing; and "Heliogabulan personal life" would be more apt.
3
Splitting hairs. The vast majority of self-described evangelical christians enthusiastically embrace Trump, fully aware of his vulgarities. In doing so, the religious right is merely hastening its inevitable decline. One reason Europe has become overwhelmingly secular is that continent's shameful history of ecclesiastical corruption, religious wars, brutal crusades, and murderous religious purges. The great cathedrals of Europe are now museums, mostly devoid of parishioners. This is where America is headed, and it can't come too soon.
149
I read this piece fairly thoroughly, but it left me asking even more questions. The primary one is: Why does any Christian support Donald Trump? I just do not understand it. As a Catholic, I feel as if I am in a vise between the heinous pedophilia of the Church and the total amorality and debauchery of this president. So, how can any educated church-going Christian also not be repelled by Trump's constant lying, hate toward all who are not "loyal" to him, bigotry, and racism? What is the pull that draws these folks to support the above.
Mr. Douthat really did his homework on this. But these statistics do not tell the whole story. There is an outlying factor which should skew an otherwise nicely painted portrait. Something is below the surface, and it is decaying. Yes, it could be money and greed. However, I will be bold enough to write what I think is the magnet drawing these people to a man whose soul is made of steel. Without making judgement one way or the other, I believe the central premise is the unborn child, the fetus. Yet that brings us to another question: How moral is it to save the unborn while giving a green-light to a man who abuses the living?
65
@Kathy Lollock: well, *you’re* the Catholic. You have to answer that question. And evangelicals have to answer the same question. It’s a green light to trump.
5
@Kathy Lollock Rather I think the 'unborn' is in fact a proxy for female equality. Hormonal contraception has liberated women from the unpredictable, constant childbearing that prevented their full social and economic participation. If 'pro life' groups really wanted to end abortion they would promote sex ed and contraception. Clearly, that is not their aim. They will not be satisfied until women's gains since the 1960's have been rolled back.
27
Outstanding comment. I live in a neighborhood that's predominately Catholic and, sadly, we've found, mostly Trump voters. A second voting issue for them - they want vouchers for their children's Catholic school tuition.
I'd like to put copies of your comment in mailboxes!
3
So, NOW you're beginning to worry about the incestuous relationship between politics and religion?
That is so 1980's, Ross.
That was about the time that Reagan snuggled up to the "Moral Majority" (which was neither moral, nor a majority, it was merely a splinter group because, believe it or not, the extreme religious right thought that politics was evil, unholy, and they wanted to have nothing to do with "ravening wolves") and betwixt the two they managed to strip the tax-paying female citizens of any chance to be included in the Constitution: The Equal Rights Amendment. They killed it with a quasi-legal ploy of a "time limit". It was taking too long!
And so, the first thing they did after they killed it was to put in a new Amendment that was 204 years old, a moldy-oldy, that dealt with how the men got paid....
I am a progressive atheist, Ross.
I have no intention of being worried that this nation is being de-Christianized. As a victim of their sexism I hope they all fall into the trumpian sewer. I hope they only have daughters. And I hope those daughters practice what they preach and use no birth control and never have an abortion and wind up with 37 children.
But the truth is, Ross, is that like Kavanaugh, I simply haven't a clue why it is that so many people against birth control and abortion have so few children.
The de-Christianization of this country can't happen fast enough for me.
And, recheck that myth that Constantine died a Christian.
I heard different.
67
@rosa
You are not alone!
Bob
1
As a secular person, I see nothing positive about "de-Christianization." Religious belief is a choice. As an adult, I opted out of the beliefs of my parents, although not their ethics. The real question is: are you (and am I) a good person. If religion (any religion) helps you be honest and respectful, then I am all for it.
42
The dichotomy among white Christians in nothing new, Trump has simply make it more obvious.
Way back in the early 1960's, I attended a small university in a rural area of New York State. There were local Christian students who were raised with a lot of "anti-beliefs": anti-black, anti-Jewish, anti-Asian, anti-anyone unlike themselves. They assumed it was their Christian right to verbally insult anyone who matched their "anti-views". They aligned themselves into the fraternities that only allowed "full Christian" members.
But there were other Christian students who had opposite, inclusive beliefs, many of whom belonged to the university's Christian Association.
The Christian Association announced that they were going to picket a nearby Woolworth location to express support for the sit-ins that were occurring in the South. One of the "Christian" fraternities then announced that they would go to that Woolworth location armed with baseball bats to attack anyone who dared picket. The faculty member who oversaw the Christian Association told the fraternity members to go ahead since it would be grounds to get them expelled. No fraternity members, faced with actual consequences for their threatened actions, showed up.
Trump appeals to faux Christians with strong "anti anyone unlike us" beliefs whom are unable to grasp that our country is growing and changing in ways that they can't comprehend.
146
Trump is a philosophical chameleon. He doesn't consistently believe in anything except his own self-aggrandizement. He doesn't believe in science or God, conservatism or liberalism. When his bullying, lying and refusal to learn anything about the job of the Presidency are added, it is impossible to see how people who are honest with themselves can continue to support him.
34
If there are good, Christian, conservatives left in the Republican party, why are they invisible? Why are Trumpists dominating the primaries? Why are principled opponents of Trump rejected by the base? Why are party leaders so in thrall to him they cannot challenge even his basest, least Christian statements and policies? People should not be judged by the poll questions they answer but by the company they keep and the actions they take. Evangelical Republicans bear great responsibility for Trump and all the damage he has done around the world. Including you, Ross Douthat.
136
So we're supposed to believe that only 34% of Trump voters believe that having white skin is important to their identity? My own takeaway is that perhaps 50% of those Trump voters are lying (the rest are probably either non-white or incapable of understanding the question). Which means the entire survey should probably be dismissed.
86
What the data shows then, is that despite the fact that Republican church-goers are more racially tolerant and accepting of multi culturalism, less economically populist, they still vote for Trump.
Church-going does nothing to limit Republican Christian support for a man who routinely and blatantly violates Christian teachings in his personal and professional life.
What really matters to Republican Christians, then, is winning the so-called" culture war." To remake America in their own image so that Christianity will be safe from secularism and a woman's right to choose, even though neither of these interfere with a Christian's freedom to believe and worship as they choose. In effect, Republican Christians are neocons.
Driven by fear of declining influence, they embrace Donald Trump, whose conduct is utterly contrary to Christ's teachings, and in doing so, in supporting his trashing of American democratic, norms, principles, and institutions, they only further corrupt and cause the decline of their own faith, along with America's political system.
Christian neoconism will not stem the decline of Christianity and the rise of secularism; any more than regime change in the Middle East has made America more safe.
This secular liberal has been concerned about the corruption and decline of Christianity and the undermining of separation of church and state by right wing Christian neo-cons for years. I'm glad to see that Christians have started to be come alarmed as well.
53
Once again, Douthat confirms that Conservatives and Evangelical Christians, whether separately or in coalition, are nothing more than hypocrites who care more about power and "winning" than in upholding any core positive moral values.
389
"De-Christianization?" What a term! How about just keeping religion out of politics. For our planet's sake, "secular" government, meaning a government not tied to any particular religion, is our only hope. Christians don't have the only "last word" on religion, nor to Muslims, nor do Hindus, nor do Jews, nor do Bahá-is, etc. As for evangelical Christians, it's likely that any given evangelical is conservative or liberal in his/her politics, and that's the way it should be.
29
It is encouraging to read that Christianity is not synonymous with far right political ideology. How unthinkable that Christ's legacy of teaching peace and compassion would be usurped by an agenda of hatred and bigotry.
34
@NM There are actually liberal Christians (who at times in the past have been a strong political and cultural force). You wouldn't know it from the media.
25
Thanks, Gary. I know what you mean. President Carter is a good example.
@NM
Christianity is NOT about Jesus' "teaching peace and compassion". If it were, The Beatitudes would be the essence of Christianity and, clearly, they are not.
Very simply stated: the conservative religious right was willing to elect an amoral, racist, xenophobic, misogynistic, man to advance their religious views of subverting a woman's right to control her own body, and to subvert the right of people to marry whom they love, and in general not have any separation of Church and State, through a conservative SCOTUS. Their's is a morality of convenience, aimed at imposing their religious views on others, and the Republicans were and are more than willing to use them to gain power.
Going to a Christian church does not make someone a moral person, any more than going to Temple or whatever religious path someone is on, makes someone a moral person. It is ironic to me that the liberals you so disdain Ross, work towards humanitarian goals espoused by all religions. They seek to feed the hungry, give people a roof over their head, and (gasp) affordable health care. They also seek to see that people are educated. The conservative so-called religious right supports the Republican Party which seeks to take food out of the mouths of the hungry, reduce benefits to those needing housing, and destroy the ACA, while denying science and denigrating education, and enriching the wealthy. The religious right has lost its moral compass, which might explain a decline in attendance in churches many see as bastions of hypocrisy.
811
@Diana How many times do pro-life people have to tell pro-choice people that they are not attacking the right of women to control their own bodies. They are standing up, instead, for the weakest members of the human community, who did not find their way into those women's bodies by accident. Many, like me, can understand and sympathize with women who abort because of rape, incest, or danger to their lives. But we insist that there are times when an abortion is a moral travesty.
@Diana
Such a clear articulation of what has happened. If I could fit it on a t-shirt, I would. Thank you!
3
@Diana Just want to say: great summary of the situation Diana. And it's not just Trump. Take Trump out of the equation and your thesis still holds.
4
I think of Trump supporters not as conservatives but rather as the kind of folks who are the first to declare “you are not the boss of me” and “you can’t tell me what to do”. Religion in any guise, whether Catholic, Hindu or snake handler, represents someone else attempting to tell them ‘what to do’, and they are not having any of it. Rather, these MAGA hat wearers often strike me as people who fit the very un-Christian ‘Lord of the Flies’ model of human behavior. The simmering resentments, the dislike of differences, the utter contempt for norms, even sneering at what the rest of us would consider just plain good manners, currently tarred as ‘Political Correctness’. Less than two years ago they burst from behind closed doors in great, great numbers… loud, vicious and fast. They’ve been waiting their whole lives for the right environment to mouth off without consequence, hating other races, other religions, the sexually conflicted, college students, environmentalists, women, bleeding hearts, scientists, bankers and anyone who purports to know more than they do. Every one of them likely supports the Bundys, Kim Harris and the anti-gay cake shop, and any other "Patriot" who breaks actual laws. Why, laws just aren’t meant for them, secular or otherwise. This isn’t conservatism, it’s anarchy, and the local Padre is probably not going to change those snarling, enraged, hat wearing, heartlanders into considerate churchgoers, no matter how many sermons they preach.
288
@Rabble It does sometimes seem that Hades itself was opened up with Trump's election and all the newts and toads of racism, inhumanity, intolerance, etc. were unleashed. It is now out and above ground--how can we stem this flow?
The so-called religious right who claim to base their anti-abortion stance on faith have no grounds for their belief.
The Bible doesn't mention abortion. I suppose there is "thou shalt not kill," but that could apply to any living entity.
Anti-abortion is a later invention of the church; after all, we don't want a bunch of liberated women undermining our sexist assumptions.
56
@Ambrose
Numbers (5:11-31) describes a method by which the priests in the temple can induce an abortion in a married woman who has been unfaithful.
5
@Ambrose - almost all of Christianity evolved long after Jesus was gone. Even the trinity was never brought up by Jesus. The books of the New Testament were put into the New Testament way later. The gospels and every other book in the New Testament were written long after Jesus was gone. Christmas and Easter were worked into Christianity when Christians were trying to get pagans to become Christians. If Jesus were to come back again, the first thing he would do is look at current Christianity and say, "What the heck are you talking about?"
1
"the churchgoers in this survey did vote for him, making a pragmatic bet that his policies on abortion and religious liberty were worth living with his Caligulan personal life and racial demagoguery"
The data does not actually suggest motivation. I would suggest that Trump won their support by not disrespecting their belief system, which is so delusional at this point in the state of our scientific understanding of the universe that many must be holding on by a thread to the preposterous beliefs that make life tenable for them.
On one hand you have a faith that makes human kind the center of God's universe which promises an eternal life
in bliss- on the other, inevitable death and ultimate insignificance.
Who blames anyone capable of holding onto this fantasy voting for a man who plays along.
The soul injection into the fetus at conception is a foundational belief that Trump and the Republican party have decided is one of their best coins to power.
Trump and the GOP's right wing, plutocratic donor base, and propaganda wing will gladly give Americans their guns, make abortion murder (while calling the actual perpetrator an innocent victim) and remove the separation between church and state, as long as they get to transform the federal government into nothing more that their personal lap and guard dog. They are more than half way there.
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I don't fear "De-Christianization" in the least, and I am one. Except for the males with the guns and the hatred.
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Jesus: greatest commandments are 1) love God with all thy heart, soul, self. 2) Love thy neighbor.
Who are neighbors? See: Good Samaritan.
Christian's voting for Trump. Utter hypocrisy. Unless they believe his policies against healthcare, against the poor, against the environment we all live in, against immigrants and behavior towards women reflect WWJD?
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So the less religiously-inclined Republicans (shall we just simply call them "conservatives"?) tend to compose the hard-core of Donald Trump's support? This, Mr. Douthat, is not news. Those who were quick to embrace the candidate (2015-16) and the president (2017-) could hardly have been labelled "religious" in the sense that they were determined followers of a loving and peaceful Jesus Christ.
"The irreligious are less likely to have college degrees, less likely to be married and more likely to be divorced; they’re also less civically engaged, less satisfied with their neighborhoods and communities, and less trusting and optimistic in general." This is the perfect recipe for the restive who seek identity confirmation is nativism and racial division, precisely those whom Trump assiduously cultivates.
They are not dismayed by his overt refusal to attend religious services or to even bother with a showy practice of it.
For the "religious" conservatives, their tenuous trembling in the footsteps of Christ's evangelism was born of their belief in the "divine right" of their race to suppress and to dominate others. They opened their Bibles--for centuries--to the well-thumbed books, chapters, verses and phrases which, they thought, confirmed their interpretation of the divine will--along uncrossable racial lines, accounting for their "conservatism," not their "religiosity."
As for the "irreligious," their racism and isolationism dovetail nicely with their president's.
Voila!
50
The distinctions you make between churchgoing Republicans and secularized Trump voters glosses over the key commonality that drives Trump's support:
Resentment.
For some the resentment may be racial or ethnic. How dare someone browner than me succeed in MY country?
For others it's religious. How dare someone with differing beliefs demand that they be allowed to make medical decisions or relationship decisions without my approval and without fear of public censure in MY country?
There may be some differences in the resentments that drive churchgoing and secular Trump supporters, but both groups are avid consumers of Trump's toxic messages of demonization. And both groups will be feeling the negative effects of overdosing on Trumpian toxicity long after he is gone.
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Trump’s religious supporters are not astute enough to worry about anything. Indeed, conservatives conserve, so conservatism will endure regardless of where these dead enders land or who leads them because the underlying physics of conservatism is stasis over progress, resistance over assent, ideology over knowledge and there will always be a constituency for remaining in place. As for church attendance, we have no evidence nor information as to the differences in beliefs between attenders and non attenders. For example, are attenders more or less likely to believe in the nonsense of concepts like the the 6000-year old earth or the talking snake than non attenders? Our anchor, now and for the future, is in the Establishment clause of the Constitution and its unfailing and robust upholding by all the courts. To be sure, it’s presently under persistent assault by… conservatives. That’s not about to change until conservatives develop a coherent rationale for their beliefs.
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@JS
Thomas Jefferson edited the Gospel to remove all the magical nonsense. “Jefferson’s Bible” is widely available.
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A Republican party more racially-tolerant and accepting of multiculturalism? Surely Douthat jests. If it weren't for Richard Nixon's "southern strategy," a strategy deployed by both Bushes as well as Trump, Republicans would have won no presidential election after Eisenhower and everyone (except apparently Ross Douthat) knows it.
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The survey is interesting, but Mr. Douthat is trapped in a view of religion & politics that was created very recently, for very earthly ends. The alliance between some churches and the GOP over the last few decades is more of a cause and a symptom of "de-Christianization" than anything that the movement pretends to oppose. Whatever their motivations and beliefs, the "Christian Right" has done more to discredit Christianity than all the inquisitions and religious wars of the past put together--and certainly more than the right to birth control or dirty song lyrics.
Religion used as a weapon to defend your moralism kills the whole point. The fact that the movement's adherents support a compulsive liar who built his political career on hatred is no more surprising, theologically, than that they have long supported wars of aggression, the demonization of the poor, torture, environmental destruction and much else. In their minds they may be doing it in order to win the right to be mean to gay people or whatever, but all the GOP ever cared about was a an easily manipulated voting bloc & funding source. "Christian" support for Trump is different only in that it may have taught the GOP that there is absolutely nothing the party can ever do that would be dishonest enough or un-Christian enough to alienate these people, as long as they keep the hatred of "liberals" & other enemies burning.
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Is it "de-Christianization" or "de-white-Christianization"?
Certainly, the Latin American immigrants are widely Christian in general, and Roman Catholic Christian in particular. If Christians are worried about their future, then I would think that their best bet is to align themselves with the immigrant population that is striding to our borders.
36
We should take efforts not to completely disappear into our navels on the matter of support of Trump by religiosos. They concluded what most other Republicans did when considering the relative merits of Cruz and Trump: Cruz couldn’t be elected president in America, certainly not against Hillary, and Trump, for many reasons, could (and, indeed … WAS!) It’s not that hard to understand, yet it’s perhaps a hint explaining why Republicans have trounced Democrats at all levels of electoral politics for the past four election cycles: Republicans keep their eye on policy outcomes rather than ideological spleen far better than Democrats. That Trump cavorts with pole-dancers and has a mouth doesn’t imperil Joe Six-Pack’s position in line for the Pearly Gates, and he WILL make BEING a religioso marginally more acceptable in an America whose MSM suggests that this status has become increasingly icky on such totems as same-sex anything and reproductive rights.
But despite finding such notions basically irrelevant to electoral outcomes, I’m afraid that I find the results of the Cato Institute’s study hard to swallow. The more one attends church in America, the more inclusive is one’s worldview in terms of race and ethnicity? I suppose I could be persuaded to accept that of Roman Catholics (who are very diverse) and the more comfortable Protestant sects (who aren’t), but evangelicals? (Note that evangelicals are really the only sects that are growing, not shrinking in America.) …
6
...
I suspect a cooking of the books. Someone call PwC for an audit.
Before I’d be willing to simply accept Ross’s premise, and the increasingly wholesome view of “conservatism after Christianity” he bases on it, I’d need to have explained to me credibly why our notions of the hyper-religious in America have been so WRONG.
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@Richard Luettgen
"It’s not that hard to understand, yet it’s perhaps a hint explaining why Republicans have trounced Democrats at all levels of electoral politics for the past four election cycles:..."
2006 is just around the corner.
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@Richard Luettgen
His column is off base because no where does he discuss the importance of the only 2 things that drive evangelicals to republicans, even one like Trump:
1. Abortion
2. SCOTUS
The catholic church had a chance to do the right thing back in the last century under Pope John's ecumenical council. It could have become truly catholic and joined with other christians to come out of the dark ages.
Now Pope Francis is following in John's footsteps and trying to purge the old guard, while embracing the many people of good will around the world. I believe he knows that Jesus' teachings are not fundamentally different from those of other religions insofar as treating our brothers as ourselves .
It is the world of materialism, not spirituality, that interferes and turns us against each other. Trump with the consent of the leading conservatives is turning our country into one without pity and dedicated to profit for the few. That's where the catholic church went wrong.
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@betty durso Thank you for this very perceptive comment. I read once that Pope John XXIII said that "the Church had sought political power for many, many years and that political power had done great damage to the Church." I think that is quite true. Pope Francis might not be successful. It depends on how long he lives and how many good people he can appoint to important posts and how many of his cardinals vote in the next papal election.
Lets hope that he will be successful.
6
Voting groups or alignments, given 130 million participants and involving an essentially binary choice, will always contain a multiplicity of paradoxes and transient coalitions. I don't see a Constantinian bargain or some strategy to reverse de-Christianization as being relevant to the analysis.
Religious conservatives, as one would expect, simply voted for candidates they deemed more aligned with their abiding interests, both in the primary and general elections, which is why they chose Cruz in the first instance and Trump in the latter. Whether or not church going continues to decline the reflex will be the same, whether the candidate has a gaudy personal life, a portfolio of disagreeable views, or other defects that do not obviously comport with Conservative or Christian values.
3
Douthat uses the term “secular” too broadly here. His “secular” lumps both those people who are struggling in society and no longer feel part of any church or civic communities, and those who find no use for religion but who are active and engaged in their communities. These two “secular” groups are not the same. One feels alienated and apart, and is struggling to find their place. The second group finds organized religion to be false and/or meaningless, but is deeply connected to, and participating in, civic life. The problem with Douthat’s blanket critique of secularism is that he wants to condemn it because of the problems of the first, alienated, group, whose problems are not so much a lack of “Christianization” as a lack of civic connection. We active, engaged atheists and unchurched folks are doing just great, don’t start thumping bibles on our account.
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I thank Mr. Douthat for this article.
It seems to me that humans are spiritual by nature and only not if sufficiently distracted by other matters.
We, if I may humbly say, need to consider what the survey mentioned is really saying - just as having a house with no insurance is a risk, without considering what happens after we die is also a risk. This all means your house might be around awhile and it also means you might not live your life the same way if you considered more broadly what it is all about. Personally, I say, life is of course short, enjoy it but there are various ways of enjoying depending how deep your enjoyment really is.
Strength, real strength comes from the spirit of whom we are inside no matter what happens outside, visibly to us. This latter means we can do a lot more when we are more fully engaged - inside and outside.
If I may add we might consider we never accomplish anything without others - family, friends, everyone - and the more we do things together the more we can feel we are getting where we want to be.
America is great for it always tries to maximize all peoples working together.
6
This secular liberal would be happy to see people fall away from a corrupt, immoral president. And if they fell away from an equally corrupt religious fundamentalism, I’d be happy to see that, too.
The president’s supporters can’t be excused for voting for a vulgar, lying ignoramus because doing so would be for the ultimate moral good, where the poor would be ignored, the middle class would be robbed, science-denying idiots would be ensconced in leadership positions and God’s requirement for forcing women to have unwanted babies would be fulfilled.
I’m not sure “moral” means the same thing to religious folks as it does to me and other non-believers of my acquaintance. I’d practically define the word as the act of standing against everything the president stands for. This unrepentant porn-star diddling liar isn’t exactly the poster child for Christian piety.
Pragmatism isn’t much of a defense, since pragmatic usually means adapting one’s beliefs and actions to the prevailing conditions. The Bible doesn’t command that we obey the Ten Suggestions, If It’s Convenient.
Exposing hypocrisy is always entertaining, and it may hasten the demise of religious belief. In this sense the Catholic Church and Harvey Weinstein have a lot in common. When a lifetime of sexual abuse surfaces, whether it’s found in the clergy, a sexual predator in the boardroom or a philandering president, the institutions that they represent can’t be taken seriously.
Good riddance to them all.
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@gemli
• I’m not sure “moral” means the same thing to religious folks as it does to me and other non-believers of my acquaintance.
“Morality is doing what is right, no matter what you are told. Religion is doing what you are told, no matter what is right.”
"Moral certainty is always a sign of cultural inferiority. The more uncivilized the man, the surer he is that he knows precisely what is right and what is wrong. All human progress, even in morals, has been the work of men who have doubted the current moral values, not of men who have whooped them up and tried to enforce them. The truly civilized man is always skeptical and tolerant, in this field as in all others. His culture is based on 'I am not too sure.'"
~ H.L. MENCKEN
15
Ross you have studied conservatives based on the church-going vs non-church-going polls you cite, but here and in your other columns I note you often label liberals as universally secular.
I have no data to prove it, but I suspect that a lot of Democrats, liberal or otherwise, self-identify as Catholic, protestant, or Jewish.
I would also observe that the increasing secularization of society isn't necessarily a bad thing, if you contrast it with some conservatives' insistence on injecting religion into the public square.
In other words, it's possible to be a true believer who believes one's religion is one's own business, and has no place in the laws of a pluralistic, secular republic.
Finally, as for the Evangelicals who made their pact with the devil in order to get judges and justices who would continue the conservative agenda of allowing religion to color the law, only they can live with themselves.
Because the hypocrisy is unbelievable, when you have a 100% secular president who makes no pretense of even attempting to attend church on a regular basis and only supports Christian causes because he wants to hold onto his base.
832
@ChristineMcM
There are active Christian Left groups. I began to notice them with the rise of Occupy Wall Street.
http://www.thechristianleftblog.org/
The Catholics I've known throughout my life were involved in left causes. Many moons ago, when I was a congressional aide, one of the volunteers in our office was a nun. Many of the Episcopalians I've known were interested in causes such as prison reform long before we started using the term prison-industrial complex.
I suspect the most vocal groups are the ones behind which there is a lot of money.
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@ChristineMcM: Great post, Christine, but trump is not secular; he believes in himself. And evangelicals believe in him, so they reinforce his perverse behavior. Meh, trump looks out there and concludes, “If so many believe in me, I must be powerful.”
But trump is of course so fragile that he rails against any criticism whatsoever. Evangelicals believe that the Left will crucify their lord trump.
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@Rima Regas
Indeed.
A long time friend of mine is a minister and she was at Occupy Wall Street regularly as part of Occupy Clergy.
In the Catholic church a great example are the nuns being involved in social justice and helping the poor and downtrodden just like Jesus taught. Granted, they wound up in hot water for doing so rather than waging war on abortion and birth control as Pope Benedict wanted.
Conflating conservatism with christianity is about as false as conflating the teachings of Jesus to those of well-known prosperity churches such as Joel Osteen's. It takes a certain mindset to convince oneself that Jesus would have done just as Joel did during Harvey.
After Trump and the GOP's coming depression, these true believers will lose their religion. That's what will happen to conservatism after prosperity doctrine.
The real question is whether this time around, Americans will learn from the historical cycles we keep going through. Will the next round of having to fix what Republicans broke be more thorough than the last? It had better be.
Trump and his Koch-appointed cabinet have broken far more than Dubya and his cabinet ever dreamed was possible. The clean-up job will be daunting and will take far longer to complete.
There's more to life than going after the shiny things and there is far more to government than doing the bidding of the most affluent among us. These hard lessons will have to be learned. Else, we will keep going round and round.
---
Things Trump Did While You Weren’t Looking https://wp.me/p2KJ3H-2ZW
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@Rima Regas BRAVA! Spot on! Maybe I'll get lucky and "kick the bucket" before the next crash.
1
"But the Constantinian bet involved a rising religion allying with a worldly power to accelerate its growth and gains."
Wow, this sounds really familiar for some reason.
Those who suspect a line from the origins of Christianity as the religion of Emperor Constantine to the merging of monarchies and the Church in the Holy Roman Empire and today's growing influence of white evangelicals in the halls of US and state government might get some background from reading this book:
"Through the Eye of a Needle: Wealth, the Fall of Rome, and the Making of Christianity in the West, 350-550 AD" by Peter Brown
Hint: Its about the money, whether in the Orthodox revival of Putin or the alignment of Trump with evangelicals or the rise of Erdogan in Turkey from his Saudi influenced religious base.
It rarely works out well.
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@Look Ahead said "It rarely works out well" and that's true for a very good reason:
Power corrupts.
Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
People who garner money and power because only these matter to them are (the definition of) evil.
2