This seems more like hey look at all these kids being constricted to gender norms but then again they are all teens trying to figure themselves out why did you do a poll on high school/middle schoolers all you get are a bunch of your mom jokes and trend followers so they feel like they fit in. Should it be more on technology and the fact that these kids should have a Walmart phone, not a iphonex because school is more important then drake and Kylie Jenner
28
Don’t believe that boys and men have no choice, and are required by women as well as men to be strong and stoic?
Then explain to me why Representative Christina Garcia still has her job in the California Assembly, despite credible allegations that she is a serial sexual predator, and why the press felt free to name the young male victims who accused her (having been promised anonymity like women sexual assault victims always receive).
And explain to me why feminist websites like Jezebel are full of comments telling men to “man up.”
143
You can’t fool Mother Nature.
34
A few random points:
-Sounds like the boys are policed in their gender norms by grown men. Not at all by women? Are these grown men themselves policed by adult women or just other men? Kudos to Claire Cain Miller for teeing up a discussion of these complexities where there are no easy answers.
And yet as a male, there is a subtext couched in her narrative that is getting really old: men are always cast as the bad guys and women the victims. Oh! Rapunzel do let down your hair all you delicate damsels! Do I detect a whiff of misandry? The girls would be oppressed by the male gaze of the boys, whereas the boys are oppressed by other males enforcing stocism.
-Interesting that the kids are thinking much more about career--boys in terms of success and girls in terms of confidence--than about forming a family. The question is what happens when they get to their 20's and people start feeling some baby-makin' instincts?
-Attention all American guys and girls out there: "Stoicism" through stuffing your feelings and being a meathead does not make you stronger. Here is what IS strong: equanimity, perseverance, and active love. Be like a bit like Pa Engels (Little House On The Prairie). Or, in the words of the sage Dog Whisperer Cesar Milan (whose cultural contribution is a product of initiall illegal immigration): "Always stay calm and assertive."
51
The thing about men being he-men (and being physically able to defend themselves) is a strongly cultural thing. Look at Europeans or Asians where being smart is admired more and being sexually attractive as a man does not equate with big muscles. I think this comes from the pioneer days of the U.S.
38
There’s only dozens of peer reviewed studies that could have told you this, because um... science.
18
Boys are stoic? Not mine, or any of my friends' kids. They complain with emotional flourish about all the indignities of life all the time. "School is so hard and I can't take it. I don't get to go to the concert and it pains me so. Too many chores around the house and it's stressing me out. You've ruined my life by not letting me go out." Look at our president. Stoic or drama king who throws emotional tantrums? I'll let you decide. Look at this whiny post. We aren't stoic. We're complainers.
82
My experience as a parent of 3 boys & 1 daughter substantiates the claims in this article. For boys, everything was the same as when I grew up raised with a brother & male cousins. For girls, everything has changed in the direction of liberation. However, with loosened sexual mores, they have more sexual pressures than I ever did. And they still feel the need to be an attractive sex object.
32
All surveys say both boys and girls want to go out with someone who looks as good as they do. Everyone is very critical when one of a pair looks too beautiful or too ugly to be a good match.
Additionally, every mother wants her daughter to pass her genes on the most dominant male, which usually includes being a good looking male.
Women with beauty certainly know they can exercise their advantage over both men and women whenever they want.
It's just too bad young girls get caught up in an adult's world before it's good for them.
33
There is several reasons why boys/men do not show emotion. This is not an issue. People don't understand the inner emotional workings of men/boys nor do women/girls want to understand males. Stop telling boys/men to be more like women and that will solve their problems. This forced feminization has more devastating consequences than hypermasculinity.
89
I am a die hard FDR and TR progressive and supporter of women's rights. I completely reject Ferminist ideology and its ongoing doctrine in regards to what it thinks men should be which is clear here. Also both sexes focus on attractiveness. Pursue your gains and let men worry about ourselves. We will manage.
61
While aiming for balance, this article is still one-sided. It talks a lot about how males objectify women. I have heard progressive women talking about ‘dating up’, as though it is normal to see guys as an opportunity.
73
Seems to me that it's the ability to be flexible, to recognize, with honesty and compassion, one's authentic experience, no matter what it is, that is essential. Kids can then be free to respond with self-expression & action. Being traditionally feminine/masculine, emotionally vulnerable or stoic, can be fulfilling- or not- if it's responsive, but conformity can never be.
Kids become aware of & define themselves in relation to others, often seeing themselves in the mirror of another's eyes- as commodities. Perhaps it's due to a hyper-presence of visual media (celebrity/image) & the disembodied & transactional nature of social media. Perhaps it's the rampant materialism around them.
If parents don't recognize the value, joy & real power, of being fully alive in one's own unique skin, then there's no foundation for these kids, more stable than 'approval' or 'next goal'. Self-awareness & self-acceptance are essential for authentic & powerful living, by leaders, lovers, scientists, artists, cliff-leaping fools... We will need them all to be a society that thrives.
If we don't slow down, simplify & support kids in learning the basics of being human, we are merely a nation of addicts raising addicts. The cosmic sense of Great Mystery or Divine Self may be the essential (missing) context to this endeavor. The calls of selfhood & connection, in their common & not so common disguises (lgbtq, straight), are to a Great Adventure. It's dispiriting to kids, if we teach them any less.
43
I grew up with an emotionally stunted father who sorrowfully confessed to me that his parents did not allow him to cry or show any emotion other than anger. My ex-husband used to tell me that he envied my ability to cry easily without feeling shame (although actually, I did feel shame for not being more stoic). My son tells me that he is considered "uncool" by young women because he is emotionally available and open. My current spouse wishes that he didn't feel so guilty about not being a better provider. I loved and still love all of these men. They are honest and try hard to be good human beings. They deserve to experience and express all human emotions. Women also deserve to be respected for expressing anger, or being assertive, just as men are. We are all human beings with a full spectrum of emotions, and assigning each gender particular acceptable emotions is simply wrong. We are an emotionally ignorant species, no matter how much we may pat ourselves on the back for our intellectual accomplishments.
149
> By far, they said society considered physical attractiveness to be the most important female trait
Probably been that way for about 200,000 years and not going to change because of PC.
41
Wow an extremely ahistorical comment.
30
My son, who is almost seven, is no “typical” boy whatsoever. Often insecure, sometimes awkward, he likes to stand back and observe much more than being the center of attention. He is, however,extremely popular with the girls because he also has character traits that we are in dire need of on this planet, such as kindness, cheerfulness and intelligence.
63
I blithely interpret the term 'gender equality' as meaning boys and girls having equal opportunities to pursue their interests in school and among available jobs. Then I read articles like this and I'm disheartened because the author views gender equality as the view that boys and girls are identical, but that society harms them both (mostly girls) by trying to make them different. There's no 'celebrate diversity' in the gender equality crowd on the Left. Instead, it's 'diversity is bad because it leads to inequality'. That's just not in line with what we know about boys and girls. Really, it's a basic misunderstanding of biological roles and the traits that evolved to help us perform in those roles.
Multiple studies of monkeys and chimps demonstrate males prefer rough and tumble play, wheeled vehicles, typical boy stuff, and females prefer dolls and "plush" toys. In Scandinavian countries where the greatest efforts have been made to eradicate gender differences, the result has been more, not less, difference. Women choose traditional careers, like nursing more when free to choose. Men choose engineering more often, not less.
What's really harmful, it seems to me, is Leftist teachers trying to shape these impressionable kids into gender roles they aren't suited to and wouldn't have chosen except to gain approval from teachers. The comments from a number of the kids seems sadly programmed.
62
I have lived and worked in UK, USA, China and now central Asia. I see western governments going some way to replacing the traditional male role in society. Not to say it is wrong; but there is a cost.
Some care should be taken, therefore, for our young men and the value they see for themselves in society.
(Men are even reminded that they are no longer required for procreation since science can easily provide.)
19
The study's principal investigator, a clinician with 40 yrs experience with adolescents, says he is "stunned" at the findings of "the hyper-sexualization of young kids". This should be alarming news to all of us, not just parents of kids who fall in that age group. As adults it seems to me we have to ask ourselves what we can do to alleviate the pressure of kids thinking they have to be sexual in some way or ways before they are ready. Sex is a big confusing topic for pretty much everyone, and we are evidently not doing a great job of either reassuring or educating our kids about it. It makes me wonder what the definition of "adult" even is these days if our kids are dealing with these things at such young ages. The touching vulnerability of the subjects really comes through in the photos.
48
Am I the only one troubled that only a third of both genders think marriage and kids important life goals? Maybe it’s a principled statement against the institution of marriage...or are societal values now creating generations of money- or status-hungry careerists interested in frivolous things like paddle boarding, video games, and pictures of dinner?
But then, a cat is more convenient than a kid, and trading in partners every two years can keep you in the honeymoon phase indefinitely. What smart adolescents, they’ve already got it figured out.
34
I’m not surprised. A far larger proportion of parents than you might hope say that parenthood was not worth it. Mothers say it more than fathers.
18
@Conor I don't think that the diminishing importance of marriage and having children is a bad thing, and I don't think you need be quite so pessimistic. For the singletons in my circle in their forties, all women, all have been married before and now doubt they'll bother again, and none of them have kids. One's an anthropologist who works in developing nations with AIDS orphans, wrote two books, and runs a circle of donors who pay for orphan children's school fees. Another does mental health patient advocacy for a large law firm, fighting insurance companies for overage. Her specialty is protecting clients with eating disorders. Another friend is a vet who does a tremendous amount of pro bono work with street animals. Another is a youth librarian... you get it. All have adopted street animals (in one case, seven!) and all contribute to their communities. The one single guy in his forties whom I know well works a ridiculous amount of hours a week and amasses a lot of money, but then, he ends up supporting his extortionist sister and brother-in-law, who have three kids whom they can't support. So I guess he's doing some good in the world.
Truth to tell, I admire my single women friends in general more than I admire any of my married friends, who tend to have kids, focus inward, buy lots of stuff and forget about the outside world, politics, and altruism.
Don't knock the millennials; maybe they are redefining the world in a good way. Get out there and do your part.
53
The planet is grossly over-populated. We’re facing a sixth mass extinction and a rapidly heating planet. The news that the younger generations don’t feel the need to procreate is a bit if much needed good news.
60
Title says girls have many ways whereas boys have one way but article content says something else also. As per the article boys and girls are equally willing to take up maths or science, which is a very welcome feature since Sky is the limit for progress in these fields. Boys and girls have also given importance for progress in their careers and also for taking up leadership roles, which is quite good.
I wish them success in their chosen fields and also in their personal lives. It would have been better if the children’s photos were not published to protect their identity.
12
Animals evolve.
Social animals evolve socially.
Today, at least, I'm not concerned with the minutia.
More coffee? No, another nap, I think.
PEACE/LOVE!(because you deserve it.)
5
As someone mentioned previously here gender policing by men toward other men is been my experience but almost as frequently by women. Inspite of 40 years of feminism the collective thought is the same around how a man is “supposed to be”. As a mental health therapist who sees a lot of men I find this restrictive, oppressive and narrow gender role leads to men unable to connect with themselves emotionally and their partners. It has ramifications for their health and the ability to heal themselves from PTSD. This disconnection has ramifications for the world actually. The healthier males are actually the ones who have somehow sidestepped cultural socialization and expectation.
74
Kudos for an article where the challenges that boys face are given a reasonably fair treatment.
Now, are any of these articles ever going to be written by men?
51
When we talk about attraction versus accomplishment, to my mind we are talking apples and oranges. As regards the latter, women made great strides in all aspects of society the past 40-50 years, and this shows no sign of abating. As regards the former though, power and wealth aside, the physically attractive will always be drawn to those similarly endowed. Anyone who thinks a lithe and athletic 17 y/o, straight or gay, is somehow going to be attracted to someone pear-shaped, slovenly and overweight is smoking crack. Likewise, anyone who thinks teenage and adolescent girls don’t judge boys by their appearance hasn’t spent much time in their company. We have spent a lot of energy engineering gender equality, which is a great thing, but I’m afraid aesthetic inequality is beyond remediation. Dress well, take care of your body and make the best of what you’ve got.
79
Acting like a girl.
A major slam.
26
@JND Yep, my nine year old son loves the movie The Sandlot. Every time he watches it, he gets the "you play like a girl!" insult deconstructed in detail...
5
The pressure my 13 and 14 year old daughters feel to look good, be skinny, dress cool (hot), and wear make-up comes mostly from other girls. There are lots of "judgey" girls who roll eyes and look down on others if they are not keeping up. Granted this attitude is perhaps a trickle-down from the messages girls get from the men in their lives and the culture at large, but the way the other girls judge them matters more than what the boys think.
73
Yes this is clearly a result of the patriarchy. Thankfully women never judge men by their physical appearance.
18
Not in my personal experience. As a wicked smart teenage girl with acne I can’t tell you how cruelly the boys in my school treated me. Almost forty years later, remembering the abuse still can bring tears to my eyes. Never once did a girl mock me for my condition.
35
"Boys’ lives are still "constricted" by traditional gender norms: being strong, athletic and stoic". Spoken like a true feminist. Always imposing your views to control the narrative at the expense of boys.
I do prefer my sons to be athletic and have good looks like their mom and be stoic and I do not apologize if girls feel threatened by that. If as you said girls are now more intellectual and empowered then what is the problem? Newsflash, being brainy does not automatically translate into beauty.
21
@souliers7
Why would girls "feel threatened" by your sons or any male being athletic and having good looks, as you put it? I can't understand where this comment comes from. I also seem to pick up from your phrasing "I prefer", and the last line about being brainy not translating into beauty, that you consider looks paramount.
Yes looks are important but they can change throughout life - including childhood, teens and adulthood. Is it best that someone knows or feels that their true value is in how they look?
34
@souliers7 I think the point is, "what do your sons prefer?" The problem with anti-feminists is they also constrain men and boys with their stereotypical standards. Boys should be allowed to be who they want, as long as they don't have to oppress others (male or female) to do so.
28
@souliers7 You didn't actually understand the article at all, did you?
15
Societal life is always a swinging pendulum it seems, with one generation overcorrecting for the errors of the prior one.
An honest look of those under 30, and especially those under 18, would likely reveal that boys/men are more inhibited by their gender than girls/women. Consider the fact that of couples who pursue pre-implantation in vitro filtering before getting pregnant, more pick to implant female embryos over male ones in the US.
On a separate but related issue, isn't it interesting that the entire framing of this issue is that told that you must be strong and stoic is a negative? I mean, I agree that feeling as though one has to comply with a norm that doesn't fit oneself is a negative, no doubt, and self-repression leads to negative outcome. Yet, why is the inherent assumption in modern day society that being able to have more emotional expression is unequivocally better? There is value to stoicism, being not knocked off kilter by hardship, in its true sense and not isn't just a euphemism for repression. It IS an ideal to be able to be resilient and weather hardship without being controlled by one's amygdala.
33
Three cheers to the virtues of strength, athleticism and stoicism!!! Glad to hear that boys, across time and different cultures have not wavered!
17
@Erik What is your source (evidence) for your claim that in US more people choose to female embryos than male?
If true, it would certainly be a slight counterbalance to the overwhelming preference, historically, in many Asian nations for male offspring.
4
I feel sorry for Ms. Keksopuro who said ‘You’ve got to do all this stuff so you can be the perfect wife.’ I don't think anybody should have to be perfect at anything. I'm also guessing that "a perfect wife" means being totally subservient to your husband. Why would anyone want to be that?
15
"The continuing study is of children...in 15 countries, and gender norms were remarkably similar. “Whether you’re in Hanoi or Shanghai or Baltimore, you understand the script.”
If traits are so uniform over a variety of cultures, there is only one conclusion: evolution has built in certain behavioral, attitudinal and emotional tendencies that predispose towards the different "scripts" for males and females. This is no different than for any other animal. The article never mentions this nor do the most popular comments. It is an inconvenient truth (like climate change for the right) for our assumptions.
Why the denial? Because of false notions of what these differences means. Not that all males are this way, all females that way- it is the central tendency. Not that it is ethically correct- that what "is" is what "ought to be." Traits can be fostered or lessened by culture, and because of many considerations, including values about human dignity, we should be working toward lessening the destructive aspects of this dichotomy. It may have been functional re survival during our much lengthier hunter-gatherer days, when gender differences evolved (on top of primate dispositions), and largely dysfunctional now. But it is what it is.
I know if this is published, I will get comments about being sexist. I view myself as a Darwinian leftist. Denial cannot be the basis for progress. We need to move towards more positive gender equality based on reality.
45
@Peter Wolf...if you’re sexist, then I am, too, because it’s obvious to me that men and women are different. I see gender as a spectrum with many gradations between feminine and masculine. Like many of my fellow carbon-based bipeds, I have some traits that would be considered “masculine” and others that would be considered “feminine.” Among my “male” traits, I’m a computer geek who loves cars and playing survival horror video games. I wear pants and comfortable shoes because I hate the discomfort of dresses and high heels. Among my “female” traits, I love to cook, and I cry easily due to being a bit too empathetic. And I’m a sucker for cute animal videos, too.
Quite frankly, I’ve never understood the liberal and conservative obsessions with homogenizing the differences out of our society. Differences are not only cool and awesome, they’re what make us human. The incredible diversity of languages, music, art, literature, etc., all on one tiny planet suspended in the infinitude of space is just...wow!
I don’t think gender differences are the problem. The problem is the weaponization of those differences by individuals and groups pushing an agenda, be it political, religious, or economic, based on the absurd reductionist assumption that the sum total of a human being is defined solely by their reproductive tract.
47
@Peter Wolf A lot of well researched and thoughtful analysis has been written about the development (not "evolution") of gender roles over time--from Engel's Origins of the Family to de Beauvoir and on. You would benefit from reading some.
5
The nyt is behind
Women have had more flexibility for a generation now
Some things will change for men but it will be be slow. Both men and women will resist
For example women still expect men to pay for them on dates and such. Most women still do not split bills. Change will be slow
16
The women I know often offer to split the check or if they don’t, it may be because they worry about offending the man’s sense of manliness lest he thinks she doesn’t see him as capable paying. Another major reason for women to anticipate and allow the man to pay the bill on a date is that, by and large, men make significantly more money than do women. Close the wage gap and the pregnancy penalty, and you may be treated to a date more often.
29
@Mama: Economic equality won't fix that one. Biology favors women in the selection game. With the exception of a few standouts, men solicit favors from women. Women who act to improve their attractiveness do so to get higher quality solicitations from more desirable men. This tracks the natural world where sperm is cheap and eggs are expensive. As we move the emphasis towards sex-for-recreation instead of sex-for-procreation, this might change, but cultural hysteresis works slowly. It takes time for a culture to make such fundamental changes in behavior. It's a work in progress.
5
@Mama, wake up and smell the coffee. Read any of the dating articles in WaPo or the Boston Globe. Uniformly when the men suggests splitting the bill the women say they see the men as not someone they want to date again. And in urban areas like Boston, Washington, and NYC, young women make more on average than young men. Government data. So it must be true.
Why are you wedded to ‘alternative facts’ Mama? The 70s called, they want the bell bottom pants back.
10
I'm a man who was abused by a woman. If I learned anything from it, it's that I am not allowed to be a victim or expect any compassion; specially from women. I can only shut up, get strong, and move forward.
66
Pause. What do young women expect of the young men they engage with, as friends, as partners in a relationship? Do they expect men to be strong, physically, morally, intellectually or is it enough for young women that the men in their lives express their emotions (and help with the dishes)?
And for both men AND women, who said that there is such great value in expressing one's emotions? How will society be advanced if everyone always emotes in this way? Or perhaps the idea of society is itself problematic to advocates of Emotionalism who privilege the right to self-definition above all else, and therefore see social roles (including gender roles) as illegitimate.
13
I don’t think anyone is talking about everyone always emoting.
7
@Eric Graig Humans are emotional beings no matter what their gender, and no matter what society tells boys and men to do with their emotions they are all hurt by the expectation that to be sufficiently masculine they must act as if they are not fully human--that is they are expected to not display or even have human emotions, at least in this culture.
When boys and men are struggling emotionally and psychologically, the very best help they can get is to have someone willing to listen to them talk about how they feel--engaging in such a process is very healing for most people. This information I'm relating to you is based on extensive empirical evidence by many and diverse experts on the matter, it is not just anecdotal evidence or mere personal opinion.
19
@Eric Graig What does it mean for society to "be advanced?" Who's judging; who's watching? Isn't the best thing for all to be the happiest, most fulfilled and most secure they can be?
3
Straight young men, in particular, need permission to be more vulnerable. How this can be achieved is really the question. So many films portray men as conquerors......their moments as of vulnerability fleeting.
21
Strong, athletic, and stoic are aspirational qualities. Let's inculcate them for everyone--but include emotional intelligence. There are also many ways to be wrong and, often, only one way to be right.
9
As a transfeminine guy, this is hardly news. Males must act masculine or be excluded. Women want empathetic men but are as ready to police male gender as John Wayne. Men are terrified of anything remotely feminine. America: you're a middle schooler.
85
America seriously needs to loosen up on gender. As well as the emphasis on male strength. Why not intelligence, and integrity. But then why should any of these qualities to limited to 1 gender.
15
It's true.
Our boys are in trouble, in ways that, if the same things were happening to girls, they would be discussed on every talk show every day.
They drop out of school more than girls, are kicked out more, are fed Ritalin more, go to jail more, commit suicide 4 times as often, and go on to get only about 40% of college degrees. When they are sexually assaulted by females (boys make up over 1/3 of child sex abuse victims), they're told they "got lucky."
Instead of being viewed as problems to be solved, however, these issues are looked at by feminist writers such as Hanna Rosin (The End of Men) as victories to be celebrated.
52
We’d be more worried about boys if they were at a disadvantage when they grew up to be men. The reality is that despite not doing as well in school, and having the other problems you mention, boys grow up to be men that control the House, Senate, White House, Supreme Court, make more money for the same work, and hold many more CEO positions. The additional money they earn allows them to wield more power in the domestic sphere, slack on house chores, and be the ones to keep their jobs when baby comes. This is why people are not that worried about the boys.
32
@Person:
As women and girls continue to be empowered by their ever-expanding roles and the new-found social permissiveness to be everything they want to be, I think we'll see more women assuming the aforementioned positions. A lot of the delay in women into high-level positions can be traced to the "old boys" network of grumpy "old" men still running the place. Just look at the number of women running for, and winning, political office.
5
It is almost depressing that today's youth will never know what it was like before social media.
44
We need to start looking at men and women as humans, all capable of both all human qualities no matter the gender we label it belonging to. I think we may be evolving to that but it’s discouraging to still see the straight jacket that boys are put in. As someone said boys and young men police each other to conform to this constricted role. And shaming is another vicious tool the greater society uses to keep boys inline. I’m glad we are finally beginning to put a light on the restrictions we place on children of both genders and the hurt and disturbance that ensues when we don’t allow little human beings to be all they were meant to be.
31
The portraits here by Amanda Lucier are absolutely captivating.
22
@Sherrod Shiveley
Amen to that, the photography is stunning, every bit at illuminating at the text.
9
I think some of our progress towards gender equality is a bit hypocritical and one-sided. Boys are punished for having characteristics or traits that are typically seen as "feminine" largely because typically feminine traits (caregiving, empathy, crying, etc) are is still seen as something of low value. A girl can behave 'like a boy' because society has branded male traits as more desirable. The gender bias is still there, it's just more hidden.
I want my son to be able to express his emotions or play with dolls or whatever and have the same support as a girl who plays with blocks and does math. Because the traits we've branded as boy-like or girl-like are really all human-like. No need for assign them to a particular gender.
76
Encouraging girls and women to find their compass and pursue their passions doesn’t mean that boys and men should be permitted to do the same. Someone still needs to collect the trash, fight the wars and dig the ditches in far greater numbers than will ever be those who, male or female, desire such jobs. Just as men have an obligation to serve their country that women do not, so to do they have an obligation to do the job before them whether they like it or not.
7
@From Where I Sit
I disagree. Boys and men need to "find their compass and pursue their passions" as much as girls and women. And, if this means breaking gender norms, then so be it. It is about time that society grant males the same emotional freedoms and expressiveness that females are allowed, the full range, not some stoic, athletic subset. Of course, not all males will do so, and it is these males who wish to maintain gender norms that should fight the wars and take out the trash.
5
Robots will do those jobs soon enough.
7
Wondered if they asked girls about comments that were made by women around them about how hot some guy was, or how important dress or how one should wear makeup. Seems that makeup would be the sine qua non of valuing yourself for your attractiveness. Interesting that males wearing makeup seems to becoming more acceptable. Perhaps, a reaction to the devaluation of males as providers who are now forced to find other things besides shows of financial status like expensive cars or dinners at expensive restaurants in order to stand out.
6
Up until recently (historically), men had their choice of many roles, many jobs - even while fitting into the stoic provider, they had many options. Women had two - teacher, homemaker.
I'm not surprised that women's roles and views have changed a lot more than men's have. I'd like to see the stereotypes and preconceptions on both sides gotten rid of - no concerns for boys with dolls and nail polish or girls with baggy clothing and playing Fortnight.
17
Second-wave feminists have been arguing for decades that gender construction - that women are supposed to be emotional, domestic, compliant, submissive and sexually appealing and men, stoic, brave, unemotional and financially successful - harms both sexes. This sort of gendered brainwashing has been going on for time immemorial and appears to be, as this study suggests, improving marginally for girls but not for boys. Is this news to anyone? This is the fundamental difference between second-wave feminism and third-wave feminism. The former recognizes how gender construction and rigid role assignment are harmful for both sexes whereas the latter imagines the world as a utopia for boys and men and a dystopia for girls and women. Girls and women are, in general, subject to one set of abuses and inequities that boys and men are not but boys and men are subject to another set of abuses and inequities that girls and women are not. The fact is, sexism and traditional patriarchal culture are bad for everyone. Here's a radical thought: what if we actually tried equality? A good place to start would be passage, at long last, of the Equal Rights Amendment (which was defeated almost single-handedly, let us not forget, by a woman: Phyllis Schlafley).
51
Men are judged on their physical appearance just as much as women. For women its beauty, for man its how tall.
And it carries over to how well you do in life.
Fortune 500 CEO are on average 6 ft 0 in (1.83 m) tall, about 2.5 inches (6.4 cm) taller than the average American man.
And :
Try to find a woman that marries a shorter man - unless the man is rich.
46
@Emily: That makes you a notable exception.
4
Women are no mean achievers when compared with boys. We already have Kalpana Chawla, Sunita Williams and many others. They have handled toughest tasks like climbing Mount Everest, driving a truck, reaching highest positions in the firms etc. There are some challenging jobs in the construction and manufacturing sector perhaps not handled by the women.
Our society, doesn’t matter whether India or America, unfortunately doesn’t treat girls and boys equally. Perhaps it will take another century to make a positive change in this regard. Unfortunately it needs considerable improvement in the educational levels in addition to improvement in the thinking.
One thing is definitely certain that boys and girls need to be mentally strong doesn’t matter whether they are physically strong or not. If they are not mentally strong, whatever they do doesn’t workout.
Media whether print or electronic, films and TV are responsible for portraying women as sex objects. How many movies are made on women achievers ? How many movies and TV serials are produced having woman dominated characters ? How many movies are made with women directors ? How many women hold highest posts in the media ?
10
I would like to see more progress for boys, particularly in the area of relating to young females as sex objects first and foremost. Someone should teach boys and young men that life doesn't work in quite this way as a married adult, or as an adult with children of one's own.
If American males can learn to ameliorate their sexisist impulses, the nation's females might respond with reduced insecurity about their physical attractiveness.
Were it possible to do so, I'd offer a high school course called "Why the heart matters most in female/male relationships." After everyone discovers that "It's what's inside that counts," perhaps boys will at last be given the chance to weep when they are emotionally scarred or wounded.
16
Interesting as I read most of the comments support for boys have from who else ,,,,,Moms with sons , no matter what age
So who ever wants to try and guess whats going on in the world
"Moms know best"
5
This might be an interesting thought — or it might not be. Your call.
I grew up before the words "nerd" or "dweeb" had been invented, but if they had been they certainly would have applied to me. As a boy, a teen, and even a young man, I was liberated by the fact that I was physically unattractive — 6'3" and under 140 pounds with a face that could best be described as "good for radio" — and was therefore not in competition with the manly men fighting for manly dominance over other manly men.
Being "just me" — however out-of-the-mainstream that was — was incredibly comfortable. I didn't get involved in jock competitions. Sure, those testosterone-fueled bozos locked me in my high school locker once, but why would I let that bother me?
And my relationships with women? (I'm cis.) Listening, commiserating, sharing, honestly connecting — well, let me tell you, they're all more successful mating strategies than preening and dominating when those with whom you want to get close are also attempting to be thoughtful and considerate.
If there were a god, I'd thank her for making me a dweeb.
51
I remember a story on the Onion:
"You're Kids, Are They Sexy Enough?".
I never thought I'd see it in real life.
10
Gender inequality is woven into the flag our children pledge allegiance to and taught in our public schools alongside science and math. Starting in 5th grade, my son was teased mercilessly by other boys for being "pretty" (aka "gay"). Not one adult interfered. That year, his love of reading declined along with his grades. When recess was eliminated and 80 minute classes ensued, I was informed that he was "acting out" in class. He shouted answers without raising his hand and started classwork without waiting for instructions. Their suggestion was clear.
These were the same adults who "dress-coded" my daughter when she was 10 years-old. They found her warm weather wardrobe of shorts, sleeveless top and sandals sexually distracting. At the end of 7th grade, the school invited her to participate in an honors celebration for straight-A students. The invitation listed unacceptable attire, such as dresses that fell above the knee or had thin shoulder straps. Honorees wearing these kinds of taboo items would be removed from the ceremony. I wondered if we should simply give in and buy a burka.
I have tried to counter these messages, but I worry that my children will both become victims. Will my son, now a 6'4 college athlete, capitulate to some hypermasculine initiation ritual and find himself facing prison? Will m
14
I guess the wise words of Robert Smith still hold true: "Boys Don't Cry..."
3
A good reason for girls to be girls, and boys to be girls, too.
3
don't we all have to feel strong?
6
As a scientist at a major research hospital my presence, knowledge, and abilities are expected. I'm expected to know what I'm doing, to take risks, and volunteer for leadership roles. My female colleagues on the other hand, (who are just as intelligent and motivated) are celebrated every time they do so. I'm so sick of my contributions being seen only through the lens of what my job was, and my female colleagues' accomplishments being viewed as important statements on liberty, freedom, and progress.
305
Hi Bob, I don’t want to make light of your comments, but I have to say, “what a switch!” I was an Engineer for 30 years and my male colleagues’ accomplishments were visibly rewarded with bonus checks, award ceremonies and promotions. But my accomplishments—well, so many of them went unacknowledged! I was even suspected of cheating on tests or stealing others’ ideas when my accomplishments became clear.
Retired now from Engineering for 15 years (I moved into a more female dominant field), I’m sorry for your frustration and anger over this. Hopefully someday everyone’s accomplishments will be equally appreciated and acknowledged.
71
@Bob, you have the disadvantages reversed. Would you rather be on the historical short end of liberty, freedom and progress? Do you think even now those women are getting paid equally as their male colleagues for an equal day's work, or are likely to be promoted to the same level?
Try walking in their shoes. Just for a day.
28
@Bob Yes. With an amendment: we also fall all over ourselves when men bathe, feed, or console a child, vacuum a floor...and see these as signs of "progress." It works both ways.
52
When "acting like a girl" is no longer an insult to a boy, maybe they can feel free to be what they want to be. Denigrating women and girls has been the foundation of the male world for too long. We see it all over, every day. I'm glad girls have more freedom now, but this is not over.
107
@Peter
uhhh nope, because by that time girls/women will be acting differently, so you'll never act like us...we're always a changin...and you boys/men will too, you'll have to if you want to hang with us in 500 years.
2
@Jill Girls and women are just as likely as males are to denigrate a boy for "acting like a girl." In fact, the rejection by girls of boys who don't meet some abstract standard of masculinity is probably even more hurtful for a lot of boys than the judgement of their fellow boys.
11
As the mother of two young boys I worry about this quite a lot. One of my boys is very sensitive and incredibly emotionally intelligent and I worry about him a great deal - though those traits should be assets. I have to admit that I am relieved that he is also a good athlete as it may help insulate him from the worst of the bullying. His father and I try to foster his compassion and interest in the world but we frequently see the social pressure against it. There is huge pressure against being engaged in school and not looking too eager in class. This is a real problem for boys - every speaker at our the elementary school promotion was a girl and the same was true at the middle school promotion as well. As a woman I think it is great that girls are empowered and charging ahead with their futures but something is going wrong for boys. I hope we get to a place where men and women can live the diverse and varied lives of their choosing but that means that some women will need emotionally mature diverse men as partners - we need to raise those men too.
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@EC
You're a great mother. As someone who was once that very sensitive boy, parenting matters a great deal. My parents absolutely did not accept those traits and tried to "fix me". I responded by becoming hypermasculine and violent in my teen years, selling drugs and getting into many fights. In my 20s I got my life straightened out but entered into a career path that was all about making as much money as possible, but I was miserable on the inside. Later on in my 30s I became a pathological womanizer, an area where my sensitivity finally became an asset. All in all, I was raised to feel like there was something deeply wrong with me for being in tune with my feelings and those of others. Clearly I had been overcompensating and hurt many along the way. After a lifelong struggle I have finally been able to accept my sensitivity and integrate all my different sides. One of the most important pieces was meeting a partner who accepted me for who I was, and encouraged me to show more emotion. It took me a while to realize that she actually disliked it when I was fronting with my usual macho bravado, and instead preferred me to be sweet and kind and emotionally available. Of course, I am still strong and confident and ambitious. Reading some of these comments, I think that some people assume that men integrating more traditionally feminine traits means they will automatically become passive and weak, when in actuality, it takes genuine confidence to accept and show your emotions!
26
Just look at clothing!!
2
Looks will always matter. Being fat is going to have more stigma attached to it going forward as research piles up showing how bad it is and how it limits your well being. Take it from a fat person. Me.
7
Steph, what is considered “fat” and its desirability varies considerably across cultures and across time. I’ll never forget how Monica Lewinsky was labeled fat in the early 1990’s but Marilyn Monroe was thought to have a perfect physique in her time. Also how large women are the beauties in parts of Africa and Polynesia, or were before western or Eurocentric culture was imposed by government or infiltrated via mass media and now social media.
Furthermore, it’s a fallacy that being physically thick is always unhealthful. People have different genetics and what’s healthy for one may be detrimental to another.
That’s the message of feminism as well: one size, or one way of being male or being female, doesn’t fit all. And it shouldn’t have to.
8
@Phat I don't think the "thick is sometimes healthy" holds up under scientific scrutiny, but the beauty standard part certainly does. What size constitutes the ideal changes by time and place--and there are plenty of American, 21st century men who clearly don't find heavier women unattractive in the least.
2
I would like to advocate for stable classes and teachers. It's hard to know others and be known if every class is shuffled. In Europe some countries have teachers that stay with a stable class for five or more years. External characteristics matter more when the kids don't know each other well.
14
I dispute the claim that a survey of 1,000 students can be nationally representative when sexual minorities are invisible. Are we to believe that the experiences of gay boys are the same as those of their heterosexual peers in such areas as pressure to express attraction to girls or to be strong, stoic and aggressive? This former gay adolescent felt terribly oppressed by the expectations foisted upon me by my male peers and adults. If the study specificallly excluded LGBT youth, then it’s further proof, as if more were neeed, of the damaging heteronormativity that still defines adolescent life in America.
30
Fascinating article, even in subtle ways. Apparently the route to success is defined as intelligence and confidence for girls, or intelligence and ambition for boys. Either way, it requires that one be "good" at math and science. No wonder emotion is so problematic -- no one thinks it important to understand literature, history, art, or music.
82
@Kathleen
Reminds me of the times I attended the prize-giving at the high school my nieces attended. Huge applause from parents for all kids who won maths/science prizes. The kid who won the French prize walked across the stage to a spatter of half-hearted claps - in Canada, where a successful civil service career routinely requires fluency in both national languages. It's great to excel in maths and science. But human activities require other abilities as well. These days, those abilities aren't getting the respect they deserve.
45
In my son's middle school-many of the girls blanket their Instagram accounts with bikini shots, and these are six, seventh and eighth grade girls. The saddest part about these photos is not only that they used to put up photos of their winning or just season-end sports teams, the saddest thing is- it's their mothers who took the pictures to help them post them on Instagram because they want them to be popular!
66
I’ve have also noticed young girls are encouraged (by themselves, but probably more from social pressure) to wear very “sexy” clothing and footwear. Much more now than when I was in school in the last century.
30
@Lisa I think when boys are asking girls constantly for naked photos, and girl are hearing sexual comments daily, girls get the clear message they're sex objects from the boys.
A campus survey by the Petaluma High School Feminist Club around 15.years ago (Petaluma, CA) found that some 90% of girls on campus reported having given a boy oral sex at least once, whereas, less than 5%of girls reported having received oral sex from a boy. The boys reported only slightly less of having received, and only slightly more of having given oral sex. This is revealing of beliefs about sexual equality and relative self-esteem levels among both boys and girls.
We also must consider the profound effect of pornography on the sexual miseducation of both boys and girls, given that nowadays, kids get most of their sexual (mis)education from pornography. Porn is hate-filled and degrading to females, and teaches males that it is somehow ok to abuse, rape, and torture, and kill females, and be pedophiles.
3
@Lisa
If you go shopping with a middle school/High School girl you quickly realize that it's hard to find clothes at any popular juniors stores that are NOT sexy. It's completely marketed to them. Half the time I don't even think they realize what they're wearing.
10
Back in the '80s, I spent several years as a preschool teacher. Even then, there was a strong emphasis on breaking down gender role expectations but it never seemed to reach down as far for the boys as for the girls.
Girls were encouraged to play with "masculine" toys like trucks and legos but boys continued to get subtle messages that playing with dolls was "girly."
We tried, actively, to swim against the societal tide but with only limited success. Children don't come into the world knowing what they can't do, you have to (as Oscar Hammerstein wrote) be carefully taught.
When I was three, I was told that big boys don't cry. If that's still the lesson we're passing on to our sons, is it any wonder they value stoicism? If we don't model compassion, how can we expect any better from them?
Surprise, surprise, when you stress girl's empowerment, both girls and boys get the message. Just, not always the one we'd hoped to send.
33
Watch what you wish for... just an old adage.
9
I think that most of these articles are from a female perspective. Even this one where you think from the headline its about boys, but it in fact it isnt, its once again about boys attitudes and how they affect girls.
In the end people dont really care much what happens to boys...
One also has to question, just because girls feel a certain way why do we assume its the fault of boys? If they feel that looks is too important why dont we look to see if its about coming of age insecurity, about the competition from other girls who make them feel like bad about themselves, about the real value that EVERYONE gets from being more attractive?
I ask my son to be responsible for his feelings, his anger and his outlook. But here I see girls being made to feel they have no responsibility for how they feel, that they are victims of the attitudes of other people...
Yawn,, its getting boring
151
I thought the article was pretty equal in reporting how boys and girls feel. When it comes to the objectifying of girls' bodies, it was probably accurate about how adolescent (and older) boys behave. However, I agree that is may have missed the degree to which we women pressure each other to be physically appealing.
Gender roles, like many types of equality, are a part of cultural values and behavior. Change is a multi-generational project. It may become boring and repetitive at times; but, it appears we may be progress on this point, lopsided as it may be.
13
Boy, did I read that differently
8
@chrisThat's not what I took from it. I feel like they were saying maybe the boys are not doing as well and we should look at that. My heart breaks for these boys. And boys in general. You sound like a good Dad, btw.
5
Most people are, by definition, average-looking and of average intelligence. Confident and stoic may refer to the same attitude. Are teens any happier than they were 50, 100, 1,000 year ago? No.
5
I don't see it this way at all.
My sons are 33 & 25. They were born & raised in California. In CA, looking a certain way, dressing a certain way, speaking a certain way, being "popular" (whatever that means, and it means different thinks in different communities) was just as important for boys/sons as it was for girls/daughters.
This was not just peer pressure. It was teachers, it was preachers, it was parents & grandparents, siblings & cousins.
As for being "athletic & stoic": how does that not apply to girls today? Dancing like Beyoncé requires athleticism. So does being a cheerleader, or good at P.E., or dancing well.
All girls since time immemorial have been expected to be stoic. The caricature of the whiny, impatient, fussy, demanding spoiled daughter (a la 'Arrested Development') is for the most part a calumny.
Outside the US & maybe UK, France, do all girls really feel "empowered?" Maybe I did, to a degree. But I was being delusional. Reality hits a woman of 30, 40, 50 differently from all the upbeat messaging a teenager gets bombarded with today.
We all have a long way to go. Be kind to your kids. Stop piling on. And make sure the school environment does not warp them. Demand accountability from teachers & administrators: join the PTA, talk to teachers, voice your complaints. Insist on a civil environment with respect for all individuals.
You only get one go around with your baby. Don't you stereotype them -- and don't let others stereotype them, either.
106
Indeed, considering the historic and current incidence of rape, other assault, harassment, prejudice and discrimination that girls and women have faced and continue to face, they are mightily, mightily stoic and strong and courageous!
16
Thanks for writing and running this piece.
The masculine definition of maleness is based ideas about virility. Nobody really knows what virility is so it's the panic and insecurity of not being virile that causes the male awareness of masculine diversity to remain undeveloped. Parents tell their daughters they can be wives, mothers, and as virile as firefighters. The same parents would never encourage their boys to grow up to be husbands, fathers, and as virile as as a princess. Parents are very insecure about their sons' development into virile males that they limit the scope of their growth. Parents imagine that they are opening the Pandora's Box of Anarchy if they allow their sons to be immune to their insecurities of what real virility is. Girls can be virile. It's boys that must be and have no idea what that really amounts to. Trump, for example, was elected on the basis of his "stamina," which he bragged about.
13
This breaks my heart because I could have been any of these 13 year-old girls when I was 13 in the mid-90s, a hard worker and ambitious and an athlete and in leadership positions, believing that I had every opportunity in the world to accomplish my dreams if I simply worked hard enough. Then I entered the working world, where old white men still hold all the power, we're paid less for more work, and denied opportunities for advancement while mediocre men fail upward. We have to keep fighting for equality so that the future matches up with these kids' beliefs about the present.
110
And by continuing that good fight, you are being stoic, indeed!
5
Real life is never a sociology study - we'll see exactly the type of boy these girls obsess over in high school.
And my wager will not be on the sensitive, emotional and 'act-like-a-girl' boys - sorry dudes - but you can always be their best friends.
29
Women far outnumber men in college. Women outnumber men in law school. If this was reversed, would it be labeled prooof of discrimination?
22
This outnumbering is a very, very recent thing, my friend. And it still does not translate into women outnumbering men as senior partners in major law firms, as judges, as legislators, as law school professors or deans. And it still does not translate into women making the same or more money for the same work, regardless of their level of education or how many enroll in institutions of higher education. So, fellow reader, there’s no need to panic, and some might say there’s little reason to complain.
50
@Mama; Like climate change, there is reason to worry. Lopsidedness not good for society overall in most cases. We are all in this together.
2
@Shamrock
The reason there are more women than men in college, law school, and (if I recall correctly) med school, is because men on average nowadays can earn a middle-class living with just a high school diploma. Women h a v e to go to college if we want to support ourselves, and grad school if we have kids to support, on average.
This can be seen in a table showing median earnings by sex, for each academic level achieved: no diploma, h.s. diploma, AA/AS, BA/BS, grad school, PhD/professional degree.
As a rule of thumb, women with one degree more than men earn the same amount as those men. So a woman with an A.S. on average earns what a man with a high school diploma does.
14
I have a message for the girls. Your predecessors have been selecting for a certain type of man for eons. That is why men are the way they are. Start selecting for a different type of man and they will change.
It's simple; you've always been in charge of men's behavior, but not through what you say, but instead through the choices you make. It's about what makes you want one man and not the other.
Choose consciously and you can make a difference. Let your hormones and emotions make the choice, and you already see the result.
Caveat: This doesn't count in places where women are treated like property and don't have the right to choose.
75
@mlbex. Give me a break! Get rid of eons of often violent male control of nearly everything that allows social and economic mobility, and share that power with girls and women, and THEN maybe girls and women will be able to make a different choice and still, literally, survive.
What’s next, saying African people should have chosen to live in east Africa if they didn’t want to be kidnapped and shipped across an ocean into slavery?
19
@mlbex,
Did you read what you wrote? You've completely infantalized men.
Women are in charge of men's behavior? I don't think so. Men are responsible for their own behaviour. Women are responsible for their own behaviour. Putting the onus on women for everyone's behavior is just a wee bit unbalanced, and it robs men of the right and responsibility for how they behave.
Men aren't idiots, and they aren't children. Don't treat them like they aren't reasonable adults.
13
@Madam: Are you saying that women have had no control over who they mate with? Really? Maybe in some benighted societies where they were treated like chattel, but not in Western Civ in the last 400 years. Given the choice, they have historically chosen the ones that acted in ways that they now decry. I've given you your break. Your ancestors did it, and we all live with the results. Own your sex's share of the responsibility and I'll own mine. We have a chance to fix things, but nothing will get fixed if we don't look at both sides of the equation. Besides, they now unequivocally have the choice, so perhaps we can change things going forward instead of looking backwards.
Broce: Wrong. Men are in control of their behavior, but so are women. They get to decide who they want for mates, except in places where they are treated like chattel. Given the choice, women have chosen the types that got us here; that's why that genotype is pervasive. Men either conformed to that type or they didn't get selected. That was their range of choice.
5
Earlier this summer I was out on one of the paths surrounding the Viet Nam Veterans Memorial in Washington, DC. I listened as a guy was lecturing his group of middle school tourists about how women are finally getting the respect and opportunity they deserve for their military service.
When he finished I got his ear and asked him to point out to the kids that of the 58,000 names of dead American service members on that wall, 57,992 were men and 8 were women. Has this percentage changed much since then? I doubt it. Maybe in our next fabulous war the men can stay home and the ladies can go and get their heads blown off for freedom.
47
@FWS: Given the rape statistics in the armed forces, what you're asking for is essentially to have women suffer sexual assault to prove that they're equal.
9
@FWS, I'm sure you also took pains to point out that during the Vietnam War era, women were actively barred from military service roles that would have exposed them to the same dangers as male soldiers, so to the extent that women were willing and able to fight alongside men, they didn't have that option. I won't bother to get into a debate about whether the Vietnam War was fought for "freedom" or had any impact whatsoever on anyone's level of freedom in the United States.
Your resort to this argument as justification for your apparent animosity towards gender equality is as ridiculous as it is bizarre.
22
I’d prefer that men stop invading other countries and dropping bombs on people. Then nobody would have to go to war.
10
It is a tough world and people need to be competitive and have skills to earn a decent living and contribute to society. Gender differences lessen as time marches forward but during those teen years, respect and cooperation is (unfortunately) not fully employed by young lads. Asking for rude pictures is massively stupid and will doubtlessly result in bad habits and poor development. However, collaboration and cooperation are skills for a lifetime as young ladies already know.
2
@terry brady
But surely none of us is surprised about 13-year-olds asking for sexy pictures!! Hormones are taking over! They will subside and some of us, at least, will grow up.
1
Now that I have kids, it's pretty obvious to me that my children are far more important to me than my career.
Sorry, this empowerment of career and narcissism over family sounds just like the latest brainwash that will lead to brutal awakenings when reality actually hits.
33
look, I'm all for women being given the same opportunities as men. I'm all for women speaking out against people who have assaulted them, but leave these future men out of it. America needs strong men, and eliminating them from the future generation is a bad idea.
14
@ACS
What makes a "strong" man, and why do you think this piece advocates for "eliminating" them?
26
@ACS
An extreme case but an illustrative one: When 95% of America's mass shootings are committed by men, don't you think it's useful to examine what's going on with one sex that results in deadly explosions of anger that is almost unheard of in the other? Something is wrong. Dylann Roof and Elliot Rodger and all the other self-styled crusaders are not the "strong men" America needs.
20
Although the preview text to this piece makes it seem like there would be equal emphasis on boys and girls, showing how girls are progressing and boys are sort of treading water in terms of the broader culture, I was unprepared for lopsided reporting. The whole story is about girls' attitudes and attitudes about girls. There's very little about what boys think (except about girls and emotions) and attitudes about boys (except that apparently they're the same as they've always been). How can we help boys flourish if we don't care about what they think?
113
@Martin ''boys are sort of treading water''.
No. They are drowning.
12
I love these studies, which control this little thing called Biology. And the other one testosterone.
5
This article certainly represents a bias in favor towards feminist progress and society seems to be following it... except boys. But why, can we ask, should boys progress to becoming less successful, less desirable and passive? It seems that somehow to justify putting women into "masculine" roles we need men to go the other direction. I know that feminists, the NYT and many others don't care, but for those of us males who continue to work hard, support a family and act as good role models for our kids, feminism has made our world more lonely, repressed and hectic while we listen to how we're simply doing it wrong by not being in touch with our feminine sides.
I'm happy for women who feel so empowered to do anything, but I'm sorry to say that:
1) men and even other women do care and will always care how women look - it's biological. We are sexual beings first and foremost. The world is otherwise women's oyster - perhaps you can learn to live with this hardship;
2) the feminist movement has not been for men. If that bothers you, then do something for men that's actually about men and not about women while pretending that it's really for men too;
3) there are, unfortunately, going to be increasing numbers of angry, disaffected men. And they have a loud voice online.
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Sadness was the main response I had to your comment, because real feminism is really humanism in that its goal is to allow people to be and become whoever they are (within the bounds of basic ethics like not becoming a murderer).
I think it’s wonderful that you are living your ideals of being the strong financial provider to your family. And I would also respect you being the (presumably unemployed or underemployed) primary caregiver to your family while your partner/spouse makes the bigger bucks. Neither way of being is stronger or more attractive.
With the exception that for some women right around the time of pregnancy, childbirth, and postpartum recovery or prior to weaning; when many women must or feel compelled to lessen or forgo employment, and therefore it’s appropriate for their partners to carry a great weight of supporting the family in a business sense while she literally makes and sustains the physical family, a stay-at-home dad deserves all the manly respect that men who make other choices receive. Both you and your stay at home, more emotionally-attuned and possibly less athletic neighbor deserve society’s respect and gratitude, as do the women who make the same or similar choices (despite all the odds against them).
20
@cwnebbe, let's not pretend that there aren't plenty of hard-working, successful men supporting families and raising children who are also feminists and unafraid of gender equality. Feminism has nothing to do with men getting "in touch with our feminine sides" - it has to do with not devaluing and silencing women simply because they aren't male.
In 2018, why do I still have to sit through meetings where male colleagues are congratulated for making points or postulating ideas that were previously shouted down or ignored when they came out of women's mouths? Why do I have to watch my competent female colleagues deal with constant disrespect and poorly guarded aggression, when I'm routinely given deferential and respectful treatment as a man?
I'm glad to see that girls are expecting more for themselves, and I'm also disappointed that boys still feel the same rigid social pressures that I felt as a child. These boys aren't bemoaning pressure to get in touch with their "feminine sides"; they are expressing disappointment that the parameters within which they are expected to operate are still quite limited. Nobody is telling them that they can't or shouldn't be strong, play sports, etc., but the message remains clear that they shouldn't be doing anything else, regardless of what they might feel.
90
Very well stated. I agree. Most of the men who feel threatened by feminism or who cling tightly to male dominance in society are truly the weaker ones. A strong man isn’t afraid to have strong women colleagues or partners or daughters.
42
For tens of millions of years, males of most mammalian species have been larger, stronger, and more aggressive than females. That traditional masculinity might seem to have little place in our soft, coddled, digital age but eventually something will hit the fan. Our society has not known real hardship for generations, and our soil has never been invaded by an aggressor, but lalaland will not last forever. When inevitably we are challenged by massive natural or manmade disaster, fashionably feminized males will be helpless and saving or rebuilding society will be up to the few traditional males who are left.
21
@Jeremy Bounce Rumblethud
We *are* being challenged by massive natural disasters. And it's the "traditional males" who continue to deny that climate change is accelerating the pace of these disasters and therefore refuse to enact policies to help prevent future damage so...
13
@Jeremy Bounce Rumblethud "saving or rebuilding society will be up to the few traditional males who are left" Why do you think saving or rebuilding society would be up to the males alone? It would be up to both men and women working in concert.
11
Um- And strong, smart women will have no role in rebuilding this hypothetical new society? Don’t you think a female engineer or physician might be of some use in this post-apocalyptic landscape?
9
Did you ever think that this new form of maternalistic feminism might actually be the problem. These Post-Modern Feminists tell girls that they are being treated "less than" and so the new generation of girls feels like they are "less than".... smoke and mirrors....
12
Actually, MysteryLit, plenty of women felt plenty “less than” during the centuries prior to “maternalism” and feminism. If you like literature, there’s lots and lots documenting this fact.
13
@Mystery Lits
If only there were mountains of data showing the continued objectification of women and systemic bias in the workplace... Oh wait - there is!
17
I’m disappointed in you, @clairecm, Claire Cain Miller. Why was the article’s only comment about LGBTQ teens relegated to a photo caption that referenced (the inevitable) suicide?? I was relieved to finally see some mention of the experience of teens who don’t fit inside regulated binary norms of gender, but so disappointed to see that caption was the only mention... It would have been better to eliminate that caption altogether instead of pretend to reference kids who don’t fit into cisheteronormative surveys or articles and have the only reference reinforce beliefs that those kids are suicidal.
11
The problem today is this hypersexualization of kids. Yes, kids have always thought about it but this idea now where you're sexting and sending dick pics is just not at all normal or ok. I also don't really understand the mentality of parents who want to be their kids' buddy. That's not what the relationship is about at that age. It's about modeling appropriate behavior and making sure your kid is safe and secure. That said, we're not going to totally change biology. It's stupid to think that boys aren't going to be turned on by the opposite sex. We're mostly turned on (at least initially) by looks. It's just the way it is. All women are not beautiful, contrary to what popular culture would have you believe. Looks count, they always will, like it or hate it, it's a fact. As a woman, I struggle with it, too. And of course you can love a person for something other than looks but initially, especially when you're young, you will be attracted by looks. Women and girls are as guilty of that as boys and men are. We just don't objectify men in the same ways.
26
I believe this means that progress for girls comes at the expense of boys, which it should not. Were the boys asked about competing with girls? Do they feel empowered, or limited? For girls, is the pressure to be attractive coming from other girls? I think more questions need to be asked. And for gay boys, are they feeling just as much pressure to be manly? It appears that way in the young men I see.
14
@Grittenhouse
Re: Progress for girls comes at the expense of boys
Can it not? If you start from the time where all CEOs, political leaders, Presidents are men, and go to a point where it's 90/10, 70/30, someday maybe it's 50/50, boys are less successful than the time when discrimination made them artificially win competitions because half of the human race wasn't allowed on the playing field.
Start from where men's sports were considered better, and go to where we try to spend equal time on both - again - how is there not a loss for the boys?
It's not wrong, and I get how it feels like a loss if you are male - because it is a loss. A necessary one. Going from preferred to equal - or even less unequal will seem a loss.
11
There isn't a single country that has it right when it comes to dealing with genders because there isn't a single country that invests sufficiently in emotional development, recognises and rewards emotional intelligence, or has the appropriate awareness or tools to deal with emotionally transmitted diseases (ETDs) which are passed on generationally from grandparent to parent to child as well as to a lesser extent relationship wise from extended family member, peers, and partners.
Habits are very hard to break, familial habits which one is exposed to from the moment one is born are even harder to break. Yelling at each other, ignoring each other, teasing, showing 'tough love', avoiding conflict at all means, etc... all these habits are transmitted just like STDs are transmitted due to the intimate and trusted nature of the relationships. Yet, there isn't a single society that deals and addresses ETDs to the same degree they try and deal with STDs. The reason I believe lies in the profit motive and ease of the transaction. For many of the STDs, a doctor can give you a script for a pill or a cream, but for ETDs (especially when even the doctors have them) is not as simple a transaction, and the field is filled with lots of hype and snake oil salesmen.
Want to fix the gender rules? The answer lies in addressing our emotional behaviours and it starts with shining the light on the ETDs in the family.
14
I’m glad this article acknowledges that the male gender role is still very limiting and that it has adverse effects on boys. One myth I wish it didn’t promulgate, though, is that only boys gender police other boys. Studies show, for instance, that even when their children are very young mothers show their sons less attention if they show emotions, and that they talk to their daughters more. And girls and women of every age can and do criticize boys/men for not fitting specific stereotypes. This problem will not go away unless girls and women too are taught to understand there is no correct way to be male-bodied.
120
I believe the key to freeing boys (and men) from their strict gender-rules is in the advancement of LGBT acceptance. At the heart of male gender role enforcement is homophobia - being "slurred" as gay for taking an interest in ballet or knitting is still the biggest weapon that males use to enforce conformity. Take that away and males can pursue what they want without fear.
108
@Kevin Sadly, misogyny also plays a huge role in this. The primary reason gay men are so vilified is that they are perceived as "girly". When we stop perceiving anything related to women as "inferior" gay men will no longer be as disrespected. But this is basically a chicken or egg situation.
35
I spent a weekend in a workshop with the author and psychological researcher Carol Gilligan a couple years ago. The biggest takeaway I got was this: while we have learned and responded to the phenomenon of girls losing their authentic voices around age 11 or 12 ("just remain silent and look pretty") we failed to notice that boys lose their authentic voices by age 3 or 4 when they are shamed into denying feelings of fear or sadness ("boys don't cry.) The damage we have done to our sons is huge and is a direct causal agent of the rage and violence we see in our culture.
Quoting her husband, the psychiatrist and educator James Gilligan, she stated, "When men are shamed (for showing or even having their true feelings) violence will follow."
396
As the parent of a school-aged girl and auntie to a similarly aged boy, I disagree that boys have been largely left out of the gender equality thing.
The boys and the young men I encounter in our moderate size city and surrounding towns show a pretty wide range of “masculine” and “feminine” qualities, looks, behavior, activities, and aspirations. The girls, however, do for the most part still seem judged by their looks.
13
Academics have successfully dismantled masculinity, but left nothing to replace it. Despite this, males still hold an outsize amount of power in society. If anyone brings up "what is a positive form of masculinity?" It is met with either a scoff or the answer "Mr Rodgers"
10
@Ted Mr. Rogers is the finest example of masculinity anyone could think of. We need his version of manhood to replace the grotesque version of manhood displayed by Trump and promoted by Porn Culture.
14
@Ted
This article clearly demonstrates that "masculinity", by which I assume you mean traditional masculinity has not even vaguely been dismantled.
It has, in fact, been ignored or reinforced. While I am grateful for the advances that have been made in attitudes of what is acceptable femininity, it seems little to no progress has been made to expand what is considered acceptable masculinity.
9
As in so many matters, US business is the enemy of the US people. Look at all the magazines for girls/women: Vogue, Cosmo, Glamour, etc. -- I don't even know all the major ones. Every single one of them has page after page showing females as sex objects, many times in an all but obvious state of sexual ecstasy. Almost every issue has explicit advice for how to have sex, how to stimulate yourself in this spot or thought, how to get the male to give you greater pleasure during sex. Ever see a story on a female philosopher or chemist?
What fuels all this? Ads by "successful" businesses with big profits and stock values for cosmetics, lingerie, jewelry, etc. It is obvious that business wants women (and men, but especially women) to be hypersexualized all the time, in all places.
We as a society need to curb big business big time. Commercial speech is junk 99% of the time -- it does not deserve the protections of other speech.
23
@whaddoino You are right. Organizations should be censored by the government. No. Actually not. You want the government to decide which business are legal? The government to decide the manner and amount of advertising? You have no faith in the intelligence of women.
5
“Boys typically aren’t supposed to be emotional…”
Anytime I hear someone say that females are more emotional than males, my first reaction is: Oh, so you don’t categorize rage as an emotion, then?
364
@at Rage is generally an action related to anger, and boys aren't supposed to rage, either. They're often punished for it.
10
Ditto, man.. like that comment.. Our boys are in alot of trouble, but we just dont see it. Its part of a the left right thing, where we are just blinded by our accepted political ideas.
6
Don't expect much movement until women permanently choose to marry poor, physically-weak, passive men over the strong, athletic, and stoic.
117
And don’t expect that to happen until women en masse are guaranteed: at least equal pay for their education and experience; full acceptance in all halls of power; and an a strongly-supported and permanent Equal Rights Amendment to the US and all state Constitutions.
Just saying...
50
@Mamá
My impression is that gender equity in work and income is allowing women to pick men for looks rather than for income. This is neither good nor bad. It USED to be that if a man made a good income he had his pick of wives.
5
I take exception to your ad hominem attack in calling me delusional.
And I AM saying that women will be freer to make other choices regarding what qualities they may want to look for in a mate if and when they are assured, beyond a doubt, of full legal, economic and social equality and full, Constitutionally-guaranteed rights. Take a look even now — as women have gained more rights in the workplace and as public enforcement of those rights has increased, so too have women gained assurance of their ability to be financially independent and more confident that they can if they choose be the breadwinner in the family. This, in turn, has allowed more men who would prefer to be the family’s primary caregiver (and maybe stay at home to care for kids and/or aging parents) to do do so as they are more likely to be attractive to women wishing to focus more on career and making money.
As for female attraction being exclusively biological, when was the last time you were a women looking for a mate? And may I remind you that, until fairly recently, biological attraction (by which I assume you mean physical attraction) played a minimal role to women who, by and large, had little if any say about whom they married or mated with.
3
The photographs included in this article are great!
10
If a boy isn't at least a bit stoic, when it comes time for dating, dealing with the girls will drive him to it. This from a man who was moderately successful at dating, not a standout but not an incel either.
All the women I know prefer a man who is strong, both inside and out. They don't have to be stronger than other men but weakness is still a negative. And there is a vast difference between allowing yourself to show vulnerability (OK in the right context), and weakness.
As for athletic, there are far more women at the local "Y" trying to maintain their condition than men. The heavy lifters in the weight room are mostly men, but there are many more women on the aerobic machines and in the exercise classes. For my money, being fit is always more attractive than being unfit, not to mention the health benefits.
Things are changing but it's a work in progress. Stay tuned.
37
What, exactly, do you mean here by “weakness”? To too many, for example, behaviors or qualities long demanded of or expected from females is categorized as “weak” or “weakness”. For example, asking for help or directions is consider by some a show of weakness, but to others it demonstrates common sense practicality and strength.
10
@Mamá: There are many definitions of "weakness" but that is not one of them. Cowardice and being a wimp are more like it. And it doesn't make you a wimp if you decline a conflict that you can't win, or where the stakes aren't worth it.
Pretending to be strong does not make you strong. Being passive at the right time does not make you weak. It's a nuanced reality.
4
To what extent are "gender roles" created by nature, not nurture? This is no longer discussed. It is assumed as given that there is or should be inherently no difference in males and females. But that can never really be the case unless we cease procreation. That could conceivably happen, if we begin to clone new humans rather than create them by (ugh!) having a male penetrate and impregnate a female, having the female experience pregnancy, etc. Once we switch to cloning and get rid of sex, we can truly say, "Oh yeah, I remember gender; that was soooo pre-21st century!"
11
@BloUrHausDwn
There are differences between males and females, despite the far lefts desire for the world to be otherwise. People need to get over it.
9
@Dave
"get over it" is short for "the suffering of others, including you, is deserving of no attention whatsoever."
Always said by someone whose suffering was termed contemptible by some powerful person in their life as a child.
3
@BloUrHausDwn: If gender roles were 'natural' they'd be much more consistent over time and place and culture.
4
Men will not flourish by being told to they can cry. Weakness is always undesirable.
This perverse idea that women need to be told to be strong and men need to elect to be vulnerable belies the most sophomoric understanding of human relations.
Gender relations are RELATIVE. No honest man thinks he'll be happier if the women in his life get more power.
The answer has always been clear; have a strong sense of self and surround yourself with supporting family/friends. That is the key to life's happiness.
We've lost our way in America because we've moved away from our families, put our parents in nursing homes, and then we wonder why we feel so alone, craving approval from the faceless, relentless internet.
21
@Arturo
for the love of nature, CRYING IS NOT WEAK!!!
why would we humans have the ability to cry, both male and female, if it would ultimately be bad for our health??, causing our humanity to not survive this world?
put another way, we can't drink poison if we want to live, therefore poison is what kills us, not crying....
9
It’s weak to cry? I and many others don’t think so.
When my male partner cried when we broke up, I didn’t consider him weak. When my military veteran father cried when he lost someone dear to him, none of us considered him weak. When a male patient underwent a very painful and frightening procedure and cried, the healthcare team didn’t consider him weak. When a neighbor’s wife died, no one considered him weak for crying. And when a boy gets a terrible scrape or feels scared because a car almost hit him on the way to school or feels overwhelmed and all alone and cries, he is not being weak; he is being human.
Until certain people stop branding natural (and universal across cultures) human expression as “weak”, both boys and girls will continue to suffer. What is liberty, after all, without the freedom to be a whole human being?
71
@Arturo The unfortunate reality for many people is that their family members are less than supportive. In fact, they're often manipulative and destructive forces.
8
Are we chasing some kind of ideal society in which every individual way a person can be is seamlessly accommodated and supported, without any conflict or stress? If so, I think we are wasting a lot of time, because as far as I know, such a society has never existed nor can I imagine what such a society would look like. The relationship between self and society is a topic with deep and ancient roots. We have been talking about it for a long time, and that conversation has been particularly fraught in western culture. Maybe be all need to relax a little and just focus on basic functionality instead of trying to support - collectively - everybody's individuality.
15
"The relationship between self and society is a topic with deep and ancient roots"
The self is not ancient but a modern invention created in the mid-eighteenth century. Read "The Invention of the Self" by John Lyons. This is not some whacko theory but an undervalued insight into modern humans. It actually questions many poorly conceived, unscientific theories in psychology, especially as it relates to notions of gender.
1
I get what you are saying but just because the term ‘self’ is a relatively recent coinage does not mean the concept did not exist earlier. This is why I used the word ‘roots’.
3
@Thomas Perhaps. But our notions of the self are completely different today than 500 years ago. Check out the book. It is a deep read.
A year into the "me too" movement and *some* adult men are just starting to get a handle on how to act, how to be an advocate and how to stand up against their sexist male counterparts. It's a complicated, challenging time - one that requires nuanced thought, self reflection and empathy. I can only imagine how hard these concepts are for young/adolescent boys process and interpret. They are being told that girls can be anything they want to be - girls can grow up to be scientists, politicians, athletes, CEOs, and so forth. Meanwhile, they are not being given messages that they too can explore new territory.
Perhaps if alongside the "me too" movement, there could be a "boys can" movement (boys can cry, boys can be nurturing, boys can be nurses, poets, teachers, caregivers), we would have less hostility between the sexes?
The hyper-sexualizing of young girls from young boys, seems like a lashing out for power by a group that feels powerless, too.
Just a thought!
9
@IK
"(boys can cry, boys can be nurturing, boys can be nurses, poets, teachers, caregivers)"
LOL
No offense. We need men to follow the law and not engage in sexual assault, but we don't need to feminize men.
And I know and have seen male nurses. I don't think men need to be told they can be a nurse.
8
@IK
"boys can" do things that will make them largely unable to support a family, largely unappealing to a woman who wants a strong partner? There's very little appeal to this, I'm afraid.
How about "boys can" buck up and still become a strong provider for a woman who feels entitled to become and have it all? That's more the reality, and if they can achieve it, will likely result in more success financially and reproductively.
5
Unless society has done a complete about face in one generation a boy has to learn to be tough — to win fights when bullied or else size up the situation, go stoic and hide all show of fear or weepy emotions. Otherwise he will get eaten alive. If he is not good at athletics, he must compensate by excelling at scholarship. That may mean getting shoved around a bit more during early years, but he will get his own back later on by earning more. He who laughs last, etc.
If he hopes to win a desirable bride, he also had better practice and develop his skills at pursuing and wooing the fairer sex, who make a game out of pretending disinterest in such things, but quickly lose interest in young men who do not display some skill at chasing, coaxing and wooing. Yeah, OK if he is a smart guy, he is after an intellectual peer who also shows some spirit, but she has got to arouse his libido as well. Sorry about that, but that is how nature made things work.
That young man also has no real choice, unless he wishes to end up branded as a loser, to be one who knows how to earn a decent income as well. Like it or not, society expects him to be — at least for a certain portion of his life — the dominant, very likely sole breadwinner for a family.
Some would have us believe that these things have changed. I don’t believe them!
64
Yep. Our boys are in trouble.
They drop out of school more than girls, are kicked out more, are fed Ritalin more, go to jail more, commit suicide 4 times as often, and go on to get only about 40% of college degrees. When they are sexually assaulted by females (boys make up over 1/3 of child sex abuse victims), they're told they "got lucky."
Instead of being viewed as problems to be solved, however, these issues are looked at by feminist writers such as Hanna Rosin (The End of Men) as victories to be celebrated.
66
As the mother of a young boy and a proud feminist, I absolutely am concerned about every one of the problems you list.
I am curious about a statistic you cite- that 1/3 of all victims of child sexual assault are boys abused by women. I believe the 1/3 number is correct, but it refers to boys abused by both men and women. Can you cite your source?
5
Our current conception of "gender equality" is something new in human history; there is literally no precedent for it in any human society prior to late-20th century America and Europe. It may yet prove to be a historical dead end, and things will revert to what they were before. In the meantime, expect a great deal of gender confusion, male resentment, and female aggrievement. Consider this statement by someone in the article: "“This is the contradiction we put in front of girls: You should be confident and do well in school and do athletics, but you’re supposed to also be a good sex object at the same time.” What is the contradiction? Do we not still expect women to be mothers, and therefore, at some moment in time and to some male, a "sex object" (i.e., literally sexually arousing to a male in order to achieve procreation)? No wonder the kids are confused...
18
@BloUrHausDwn "No historical precedent" for gender equality? Do you know anything about Ancient Rome, when gender equality was not only vaunted, but androgynous men were at the top of the power structures? Or Ancient Greece, where men having sex with other men and women was viewed as normal? Or the Victorian era when the most masculine men women sought out were those who wrote poetry, respected women of all classes, and had a recessed chin?
Your conception of knuckle-dragging masculinity "athleticism, breadwinning, sexual promiscuity" is something that didn't even exist a hundred years ago. Viz. gender is without doubt a societal construction. It's whatever we say it is or isn't. It has nothing to do with nature in the slightest.
3
What’s missing from this article is the role that our own mothers played in our “female development.” I was overweight as a teenager and it was my mother, not my father, who made me step on the scale every morning, standing over me, studying the numbers as they swung left to right, finally settling on their grim stationary position: 150lbs. When she saw that, she’d hit the ceiling, “What did you eat yesterday? A greasy hamburger with a supersized carton of fries? Keep it up and you’ll be single for the rest of your life. No man wants to marry a fatso!” Flash forward: In my college anthropology class, I learned that it was the Chinese mothers, not the Chinese fathers, who bound their baby girls’ feet into three-inch monstrosities, as those “lotus-flowered feet” were the “forbidden fruit” that, evidently, were an erotic “turn-on” when sheathed in tiny, hand-painted shoes. When we women get brutally honest about how our self-worth was established, we face the sad fact that it was our mothers, not our fathers, who first made us into “sex objects.” Is it any wonder that all of us women “dress up” for each other: we’re still trying to please mommy!
‘
6
Very interesting study and moreover that confusing part is highlighted where boy go girl is not tolerated still and only seen in gay pride march or inside gay community ..girl go boy is considered as a cool thing as well ..very contradictory thing to understand
7
[[In a new poll, girls say they feel empowered, except when it comes to being judged on how they look.]]
Girls are the harshest judges of each other's looks. Talk amongst yourselves to resolve that.
[[Boys still feel they have to be strong, athletic and stoic.]]
What's wrong with being physically strong? What's wrong with being athletic? If boys feel that way, where did all the morbidly obese adults I see every day come from?
And if "stoic" means you go through your day without whining about every little blip you encounter, I'm all for it.
29
@Third.coast
No, I think by "stoic" she means having NO emotional response to things. It takes men so long to start to feel if they wait until they are grown up.
And the whole world suffers.
It's great to be able to withstand pain and turmoil. That's character.
It takes a strong person to admit emotional pain.
16
@RW
Or a strong person to get over it (emotional pain) and move on with their life.
No one is saying that it is “wrong” to be physically strong, athletic, or emotionally measured (except those who say females shouldn’t be). The point is that boys who are not so inclined are not wrong and should not be made to feel that there is something wrong with them. Plenty of successful men are hardly athletic or physically strong, and that’s fine and should be fine to you as a brother of these men.
4
Well duh. It’s all the same package. Telling a boy to stop ‘crying like a girl’ is obnoxious and stupid and sexist from both angles. And still too common.
My impression is boys are AS ‘sensitive’ if not MORE so when they’re young then girls. Then despite our best efforts at home they end up in this fight with themselves to suppress it all: their feelings, their emotions, their compassion (requires emotions).
21
[[“Boys typically aren’t supposed to be emotional, so real men shouldn’t cry.”]]
Little boys tend to whine. A good father will break a boy of that habit. Collapsing in a heap of tears if you drop your ice cream cone is fine if you're two, but unacceptable if you're 12.
7
@Third.coast "Collapsing in a heap of tears if you drop your ice cream cone is fine if you're two, but unacceptable if you're 12."
True, for boys AND for girls. It is not just boys who must learn to be more stoic in the face of life's disappointments! But a big difference I see raising a son is the role that testosterone seems to play as they hit puberty. I've read and heard accounts by various individuals undergoing testosterone shots (some who were transitioning, others who were treating medical conditions) and all relate how powerfully it affected some of their emotional expression.
I see this in my son as he enters puberty. Whereas I (a female) would be left despondent and cry about various middle school miseries, my son has started getting furiously angry. He cries too, but the anger is palatable and -- were he to behave like this at school or in some public space -- would lead to serious consequences. He knows that he must learn to control himself.
No question that it is embarrassing to burst into tears in class, even if one is female, and there will probably be social consequences -- but going into full on "rage mode" can lead to violence and real punishment. All children must learn to control their emotions, but as boys hit puberty the need for stoicism in the face of frustration/disappointment/embarrassment is real. No wonder that many boys view it as an admirable male characteristic.
5
The author makes a lot of good points, but IMO glosses over the one that would have the most impact on the others:
<em>There is no advocacy for "modern masculinity".</em>
Women, albeit not equal <em>yet</em>, earn more college degrees and area largely tracked for more economic success than men on average. There's an uptick of women running for office that, IMO, will only steadily rise over time. Women are rising: economically, socially and politically.
GOOD!!
Men, on the other hand, are "checking out". As the article delineates, they are not interested in school, are attending/graduating from post-secondary school less. The manner in which we socialize men doesn't seem to be congruent with the modern age.
How many kids grow up with out fathers? I did, and I'll tell you what I should have learned from my dad I ended up learning from pop culture. The message was - you get and keep your "man card" through sexual conquest and toughness. This isn't any different than what men were taught 50 years ago, <strong>and</strong> the pop culture message is largely the same. Why would boys turn out any different if the messages we send them are the same we received?
Look, I'm all for this wave of feminism, even for selfish reasons (maybe a woman will ask ME for MY number and take ME on a date and pick ME up? Men want to feel special too, y'all.). That said, turning a blind eye to the plight of boys will make for more bitter, lonely men.
41
@Michael Cain
so i am a woman who has paid for my dinners and dates with men since i was 18 years old. I'm now 63 and married but when i met my husband on our first date 30+ years ago he was kinda' shocked that i reached in my purse and paid for my half of the meal.
I've never understood as a child of the 60s why women wanted men to pay for everything. i always had a job and therefore could always pay my way and took my boyfriends on dates. It was fun, and I felt more in control financially. I hope there's a woman for you who will take YOU on that date.
8
This article almost makes it seem like being able to control your emotions and being strong emotionally and psychically are bad things. They are not. Man or women. Boy or girl. Being able to express yourself is important. But so is recognizing that sometimes life is hard, isn't fair, and sometimes other people want to see you fail. Being able to rise above than, preserve and succeed is often what separates those who are successful from those who just muddle through life.
12
Oh, come on. This has to be a function of poll questions. Boys still have a myriad of (admittedly non-realistic) models - Rock /Rap Star; Class Funny Guy; Budding Scientist; Boy Scout; Hunter; Class Politician; Competitive Gamer; Brooding Genius. Girls??? You're still a cheerleader type, or else slotted into the "she's so bright" label. There are a few less appetizing monikers that I won't even mention.
7
@Susan
Girls have women action heroes (who are also unrealistic) like Black Widow, Wonder Woman, more than enough Rap stars, comedians, celebrated scientists, Twitch Stars, etc.
3
One has to distinguish between the dominant cultural attributes attributed to values and/or behaviors, and non-dominant or sub-cultures. They are often quite different. The same can be said for differences between white and blue collar attitudes.
What is also clear to me, an old, white male having come of age to gender politics in the ‘80s, is that gendered experiences are also quite different. No woman likes a man telling her “how it is” for her. Ditto a man!
What is objectively demonstrable is that the dominant culture’s conception of masculinity is a far more rigid structure for being in the world than is the dominant conception of femininity. There are simply far more socially acceptable ways for a woman to be feminine than for a man to be masculine! Rigidity!
Check out life longevity statistics as between the sexes.
16
"Poll finds youth aren't living up to liberal ideal of eliminating natural sexual preferences from the population." That's how the headline should have read. And that's how it should read a thousand years from now when polls find the same thing. We evolved differently. We look for certain aspects of attractiveness and assertion and no amount of sanctimonious social engineering will alter that. It will only create grievance.
9
@BarrowK You've made these assumptions because you've decided that what we here in the US of A consider attractive is a universal human trait rather than the result of the culture in which we live. If you look at other societies, especially matriarchal ones, you will realize this is not true.
4
@Avarren
Plenty of studies have shown universal traits of attractiveness. Take a look on-line.
I have two daughters, one out of college and one in High School. They have their struggles, but are well-adjusted, do well in school, and very much believe that they can be whatever they want to be. I tell them "I am a feminist," and it is a standing joke when they struggle because I remind them that they can create their own destiny. However, look around you at schools and society. It is the boys, far and away, that are stumbling. More girls on the student council as this article says. You betcha. More girls going to college. They year of the woman in politics, etc. The future is female and this does not bode well for boys or men in our society. Yet the mainstream media consistently portrays this "as if" discrimination, etc., plays against women. Go visit a prison. Go see who gets arrested. Go see who's more likely to be on drugs or more likely to commit suicide. Boys, and men by extension, are in deep, deep trouble in our society.
204
@Jason McDonald
It's true, girls do better in school. I personally believe that the way school is currently set up favors girls, as well as the fact that the way we socialize girls makes them more likely to succeed in a structured setting. But your definition of "discrimination" beyond that leaves a lot to be desired.
If girls are so much better at school, how come women are vastly underrepresented at the top levels of business and politics. Did all these smart, ambitious females suddenly change their mind one day? In the Fortune 500, there are more CEOs named John than there are female CEOs. The future may be female but the present is not. (Perhaps you missed the famous photo of a bunch of republicans discussing the health care bill)?
As for drug use and violence, yes, those rates are dramatically higher for men. Is this "discrimination"? Are all those girl student council leaders forcing drugs onto their male classmates in hopes of reducing the competition? Hardly.
It's far from discrimination. Men are doing this to themselves. The question is why. This article attempts to address that.
16
@Jason McDonald
Agree. From my perspective, as a woman, boys have been the causality of the girl-power movement. It's just not hip or PC to care about boys, unfortunately.
10
I'd say a major reason for boys thinking they need to be tough and stoic and for girls to worry about their attractiveness is they are, more than ever, deeply immersed in a commercialized popular culture that, more than ever, relies on pushing those attitudes for profit.
Never have "superheros," professional sports and athletes like Tom Brady been so omnipresent in our mass media. And never before have fashion models and female celebrities like Kim Kardashian or Miley Cyrus been so naked, so well paid and so taken seriously.
Should we be surprised at the results?
161
You offer two false premises, that male athletes have never been so omnipresent in the mass media and that women celebrities have never been so naked and well paid. This destroys your argument.
Try this one on for size: Joe DiMaggio and Marilyn Monroe.
7
The hook-up culture drives a mindset that promotes using another person for bodily pleasure.
Women deserve to be cherished and loved for their entire selves--body, mind, soul. Women are strong and powerful and beautiful and should be treated as such, not as objects for a man's gratification.
6
@Kayla
Breaking away from the "hookup" culture means teaching boys and girls that their bodies are sacred and they should respect themselves. It is easier to show respect for another's body when you cherish your own.
11
@Kayla nice thoughts, but completely unrealistic. Men are almost completely focused on gratification. They cherish and love entire selves only as a means to an end.
1
@No
"men are almost completely focused on gratification?" ?
Maybe boys are, but not men.
Besides that is a gross generalization that ,if it were directed at women, would be considered offensively sexist .
2
This article verifies and supports what we all know and the readers of the Times do not like to hear. People prefer attractive females and powerful males. It has always been this way and it always will be.
36
@No
It's more like, "everyone likes an attractive partner, but women (or some men, I guess), feeling powerless, might choose a partner who can give them stuff instead." A "powerful" one. I've seen it many times. Pretty young friends of mine have to "get the hot guys out of their systems" before marrying the successful nerd.
When young women believe they can get what they want and need for themselves without harassment, hassle and denigration, this will change.
3
@No
@No...uhhhh NO!! it will not always be this way. you or i may not live to see these gradual changes to their conclusion as i admit this could take centuries, but now that we women are making money, maybe we don't care whether you like our looks or not. we can still eat, and eat heartily for that matter!
6
It's still a patriarchy no matter how free women feel to be themselves. Look who's President. Not easy for anyone.
16
I've been waiting for years for people to start recognizing that boys and men are no less crippled by societal norms than girls and women. One advantage women have always had is that they were allowed to have emotions, and to be socially and emotionally intelligent human beings. In fact, it was expected of them. Even in the days before gender equality, at least women had one another to lean on. Most men have had no one they can let into their inner lives. They wouldn't know how to let someone in. They're taught from an early age to show as little vulnerability as possible. And they're taught this by mothers as much as fathers. While things are changing, and men are certainly more "whole" than in earlier generations, it will only be when society approaches boys' empowerment with the same urgency as we have girls' in the past few decades that we'll see real progress. And women have an enormous role to play, as they are just as complicit in reinforcing crippling male stereotypes as men have been reinforcing female stereotypes. Recently a female friend of mine criticized a mutual friend's husband for getting teary-eyed over a movie. And last week, I overheard a young woman at a cafe tell her dining companion she broke up with her boyfriend because she wanted "to be the emotional one in the relationship." As the father of boys, I see how pervasive this still is. Men and women both need to step up and own this problem, just like we've stepped up for girls.
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@Bob G
Well said!
7
"Plan International USA, an organization for children’s rights and girls’ equality." Plan International used to be know as Foster Parents Plan, an organization mainly dedicated to improving communities in the Third World by sponsoring children and communities. Its emphasis on gender equality is a relatively recent addition to its programs.
2
sorry problem here. women should have never been depicted as weal, ineffectual, dependant. The ideal is strong independant people. Man or woman.
The real question is what constitutes strength. I have had to so many things that were non masculine or "weak" to care for my children. we should look at outcome over process in this case.
3
@stanley
That's the ideal now. Simon Schama wrote a great book on The French Revolution ( 'Citizens'), and in that book he talks about how Europeans of that period (late 18th C) embraced (even forced) sentimentality. He made it sound like people in France in the late 1700's had crying parties. Like people would get together to read sentimental poetry and cry as a group. In Shakespeare's Twelfth Night, Duke Orsino is a bit like this. Franky, I think Garden State era hipster culture is not unlike this (Death Cab for Cutie, etc.).
2
I attribute this persisting tough male normative that boys still reckon with to our broader culture that has long propped up and rewarded machismo and (until only recently) has been largely dismissive of and and unwilling to address toxic masculinity in various spheres. The Wild Wild West - what is "masculine" and what is not - is so entrenched. And it starts early. While one can argue that today's children have exposure to a broader array of what gender identity can look like for them, when we get to the primary school house - where children spend a not insignificant amount of their development when not at home - the models they see in books and school staff remain confined to old stereotypes: Women are still a majority of teachers. Here, in my mind, is where one of the earlier lessons begins -- the image of nurturing and building up and teaching and caring about the holistic person are qualities and actions ascribed then to women - likely reinforced by what's already set up at home - where yes, men are sharing more of the responsibilities ... but still far less than women on the whole.
8
Progress for girls is largely about approaching traditionally male characteristics: confidence, independence, disregard for looks, etc.
Speaking generally, boys already embody those traits so from there it's simply a matter of being "the best" or the most dominant.
If boys and girls ever do reach true equality, they'll both be competing for first place and feel like they all need to be stoic, athletic, etc.
It's not like wanting to be stoic or athletic are oppressive things since they're personally empowering and not imposed from above by others like beauty standards or fashion.
4
I think most of the commenters here are missing the point...women have no problem with good hygiene; clean, comfortable, well maintained clothing; or exercise and diet as part of good health. What I, and I believe other women, object to is the expectation that we must wear makeup, high heels, a different outfit, everyday to meet the standards set by somebody whom none of us can identify. Who decided that I can’t dress comfortably for work and that goes for men also. A man can look good and be more comfortable than most of them look in a suit and tie.
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@Marg Quinn
high heels? Most men I know wish women never wore them. Here in NYC, heels seem to be a religion with women. To me, it seems like women are the ones who insist on heels (not men).
I went on 3 dates with a woman exactly my height. It took her three dates to decide that I was flat worthy, by which I mean I was worth giving up heels, because she felt she couldn't wear them with me due to my height. Maybe outside of NYC the mentality is different.
My belief is all the requirements you list are put on women by other women. Most guys I know want women to wear jeans, Chucks, and a tee shirt.
23
@richguy
I agree. Most of these things women complain about are put on them by other women - and blamed on men. It feels a little insulting, honestly.
2
@richguy
How about we do away with unasked for opinions about our dress, habits? I wear heels because I like them. I also wear flats because I like them. I wear Chucks almost everywhere, because I like them: not because "most guys" like it. These tropes about what "most guys I know" have to end, no matter what it is that "most men" like, want, etc.
It's not always about you and your friend pool.
2
I think many women want men to be what Jacques Lacan would call the the ego-ideal, the subjet supposed to know. Women probably feel very fragmented inside and want men to be or hope men are consolidated inside ("confident") so they can find stability in men that they don't find in themselves. For Lacan (I believe), this is how the patient views the therapist (consolidated and self-knowing)
7
I was a boy, nerdy, smart, and intuitive. High school was hard, but college better. I am now married, have kids and grandkids, got to be a professor and scientist. You do not need to be strong, athletic, or stoic.
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@Chris R
I love your comment. You appear to have those intrinsic qualities that matter most (or at least I rate pretty dang high on the hierarchy of importance): honor, responsibility, devotion, respect, commitment, love and integrity for and of your spouse, kids, grandkids and chosen profession.
10
@Chris R
Alleged Harvard football cheer when they are playing some Alabama-type opponent:
"It's all right, it's okay, you will work for us someday!"
6
@Chris R @Chris R Of course you do not have to be strong, athletic or stoic in academia. Academia is a gilded fortress where a male professor is free to behave is unconventional, even un-masculine ways without suffering the consequences that would routinely apply in the outside world. Have you ever heard of a male professor being denied tenure because he seemed a little fey? Have you ever heard of a male professor falling behind in his career because he was physically weak? Have you ever heard of a male professor deemed unfit for the job because he allowed himself to be seen with tears on his face? Just about anywhere but a college campus, those characteristics and behaviors would almost certainly inhibit a man's career. He may never get the pay, the family and the other rewards you got. He might end up jobless or underpaid, addicted to opiods, lost.
1
When I was young--in my teens and on into my thirties--I hated the sense of being looked "at." Now that I am well into my forties, I find that I'm looked "through." Suddenly, I've become invisible, a non-entity. All that I've ever wanted is to be seen--acknowledged, really--as a person.
137
@H.L. It only gets worse. The only good thing is, you stop expecting to be looked at. Since being looked "through" occurs just about the time that fertility wanes, I blame it on biology.
8
...the invisible, inconsequential older woman...
4
@H.L., a lot of my female friends are going through this transition.
Most women (some more than others) spend the decades between their teens and their mid-40s as minor celebrities. People buy them drinks, dinner, gifts, just to be near them. Vacations! Fast cars! People open doors, let them pass to the head of the line, offer them everything first and best. “If they don’t give me proper pettage, I just walk away,” said the wise sage, and certainly my experience has borne this out.
From time to time, even a lot of the time, it’s wearing, just like real celebrity, but the perks are pretty good too.
Then suddenly women are in their 40s and all that stops.
It’s not that people are looking “through” you, it’s just that your celebrity is gone and your star has faded. The special treatment is gone.
It’s like being a man. Welcome! Bring your purse. You’ll have to buy your own drinks.
10
Ok, let's go over it again what history has taught us.
Right any obvious wrongs, like slavery, discrimination, gender rights, union rights etc. etc.
This has basically been established between men and women in this country.
Continue to let both sexes know that can be anybody they want to be.
If a man wants to be a traditional macho man or the opposite a house husband or a woman wants to be a traditional feminine woman or a tom boy let them.
Don't social engineer everybody to be feminist clones of each other.
If you do, one of the results is the election of a ego maniac demagogue like Trump.
Learn from history or be condemned to pay the price.
31
@Paul...Are you blaming feminists for Trump?
3
@Albert Edmud-thank you for your reply...only partially Trump re feminists. We all to some degree were guilty for Trump ie instead of having rational discussions and agree to disagree but compromise, most of us went into our corner and refused to learn the lessons the founding fathers and Lincoln types taught us.
When that happens you have ego maniac demagogues like Trump ready to fill the void.
It has happened over and over throughout our history and that of mankind.
@Albert Edmud
If he's not, he ought to be.
You inclusion of images in your "jounalism" undermines the position that "looks are not important."
Your use of photos is a symptom of the very phenomenon you decry.
28
Adult men are the problem.
I have found that the male teachers promote and enforce sexist dress codes and make inappropriate "jokes". Male clergy expect women to do all the work and men to get all the titles and credit. Fathers send the message that girls are to be controlled or viewed as an asset to be managed (Brian Kemp anyone?). Male CEO's create a culture of secrecy and reward for the men who work for them, whether it comes to compensation or discipline.
Girls aren't stupid - they see what's going on around them.
13
@Cousy
Male teachers can be very important for healthy emotional development, especially for boys. We has on male teacher at my elementary school. Sometimes one of the male PE teachers for the attached Jr. High would will in. That male teacher was the first male roll model my partner had that was like him and encouraged him to just be happy in himself-someone who was kind and focused more on brains rather than sports. I only had him for a little while but he was a really engaging, patient teacher. Never any yelling and kids paid attention in his class. Yes there are problematic teachers but the most sexist teacher I ever had was my female health teacher who tried to convince us that womens' brains were damaged if they had sex with more than one person. The best teacher I had in high school was a male teacher and because of the class he was teaching we spent a lot of time talking about gender roles. He was not afraid to say when he had fallen into the trap of boxing himself or someone else in because of stereotypes and strongly encouraged us to think critically about this to avoid limiting ourselves or others.
I think there is an equal problem of women enforcing sexism on young girls and that is an issues since teaching tends to be a woman dominated field. Not only do we have to deal with men objectifying us but also a sizeable group of women who are willing to wage psychological warefare against girls and young women and perpetuate negative patterns.
6
@Cousy
People who make sweeping generalizations from limited experience are the problem. First comes the conclusion and then the collection of anecdotal “evidence” to support said conclusion.
9
@Cousy
Thank you for insulting all men. Have you ever been in a relationship (a lasting one) with one, by chance?
7
Girls still feel that their looks are of paramount importance. No surprise. Look at the way women celebrities are portrayed constantly. Clothes that cover nearly nothing, excessive makeup, pouting looks, sex, sex, and more sex is what girls see all the time when women are portrayed.
133
@operadog
Dwayne Johnson. Chris Hemsworth. Ryan Reynolds.
7
Women need to do better in this department, if I'm honest. Almost every woman is rightfully against being judged against a gender stereotype, yet in my experience, many of those same women are quick to judge a man if he is sensitive or emotional. (A lot of) women still judge men against societal stereotypes of personality and appearance.
294
@Will
Ten years ago, I tried to convince a woman I loved that I had not cheated on her (I had not). I tried so hard to convince her that I started to cry. She looked at me with mild disgust. I think she'd had rather that I cheated on her than cry.
74
@Will
They also judge a man based on his job title and income.
39
@Will
Interesting. Certainly women from a traditional or conservative background often expect men to be stereotypically masculine. But it is often other men who judge men for being sensitive or emotional. Peers, fathers, bosses, teachers.
8
Ladies...good luck in trying to get men to NOT OBJECTIVE women. For the good of the species, it is not happening. (Be honest - most women react positively to a male well-constructed six-pack as readily as a man reacts to a nice set legs). It just is not going to happen. Candidly, we all should stay in shape and we should take good care of ourselves. Besides during the push and pull of daily life when suffering a down moment...there is poetry in a kilted skirt swinging down the sidewalk. Its one of the joys of life.Do not condemn it...EMBRACE IT!
5
[[Candidly, we all should stay in shape and we should take good care of ourselves.]]
Everyone I know who has gotten a divorce immediately got some sort of makeover. New wardrobe, bought a new car/motorcycle, hit the gym.
Because they were getting ready to be judged.
8
@James B Newman I don't think what is being discussed here is normal sexual attraction. What we're talking about is women being treated as objects, and having their appearance valued to the exclusion of their other talents. Could you also not find poetry in a woman who was adept at conversation? Why does she need to wear a skirt? How would you feel if you were defined primarily by your physical appearance?
10
1) Science says you can't entirely suppress an emotion; it will get expressed somehow. BUT you can replace one emotion with another. Anger works, for example. 2) Boys are ridiculed if they expressed any emotions. 3. Except anger.
110
@Tim Blankenhorn And that is one of the greatest detriments to our society. Anger and rage can beget violence. Perhaps if both women and men were socialized to know and express their emotions in healthy ways, we'd have a more peaceful world.
10
@DR
Yes.
At some point, gender will not be a determinate of success, As a people we are only 50 years into the sexual revolution, and compare that to the millennia of gender oppression that existed against females, and homosexual, or should I say GLBTQ peoples, it is a little disingenuous to keep on purporting these gender biased articles that bash males for being sexually interested solely in females, when of course we know they are not. Yes, most males are, as most females are just as equally interested in males, but that is never mentioned. And those of us who are attracted differently, or identify differently to gender are never considered as co-equal in these supposedly scientifically surveyed group. Teenagers need to explore both their potential and their sexuality, that is what teenagers do. Leave them alone and stop surveying them to underline your own gender bias.
5
@Jack...GLBTQ. Duly noted, and well inverted.
1
This quote in small print under one of the photos is not an anomaly:
“If you post something on social media about LGBTQ people or your sexuality, you’re eventually going to be told to kill yourself.” Bemmy Daniels, 13
234
@Museman
I saw that too and it made me nervous. Kids endure so much more social pressure than ever before and the end result is not always in their favor. I just hope Bemmy Daniels' parents are aware of this quote. Such a beautiful child but the pain and torment is clearly seen in those magnificent eyes.
25
@Museman
How sad that we have not moved further away from this stigma. What is natural or normal to one may not be natural or normal to another. That is life.
"Kill a queer" is such a frightening and demonic message. The needle has moved somewhat from that point of view, but not far enough.
12
There is even bias towards boys in your headline line -- your report states, but gives short shrift to the fact there is still one overriding important way to be a girl -- fantastically sexy and beautiful looking -- and unfortunately that has not changed, and is just as limiting to girls as that boys feel they must be strong, athletic and stoic. Girls still live with incredible bias, are valued less,if they are not super good looking. That is crippling.
19
@Naomi Cohen
From my (admittedly male) experience, I do not see that happening in almost any place. "Fantastically sexy and beautiful looking"?
Men don't expect all women to be super models. We are realistic.
Let me pose a statement to you:
Men are valued less if they are emotional, or not muscular, or not athletic. That is crippling.
4
@Naomi Cohen
Except that is not at all consistent with the findings of the survey, which suggest (from the limited information provided in the article) that girls feel empowered to be any version of being a girl/woman. If anything, the feeling of being sexualized is intertwined with puberty and other changes at that point in a girl's life. That they do not view the advances of boys as motivating their behaviour shows that being fantastically sexy is not "an important way to be a girl". I think you are projecting your own views onto another generation.
3
@Naomi Cohen Right, we hear from women in the media how they are ignored more often as they age, but many of them are beautiful. Some girls and women are often ignored if they are not super good looking.
5
Interesting that the article did really mention how the internet, social media and the smart phone have transformed adolescence. The pressures on young girls to be a certain way get amplified. These image-based and sound bite mediums can be very unhealthy and we are beginning to see the victims. The smartphone is only five years old. Kids live on these things.
16
Many Ways to Be a Girl, but One Way to Be a Boy
These are not 'new' gender rules. They are the 'old' gender rules.
Has anything changed for boys? If not, what does that say about vaunted gender equality?
175
@Geoff That it's a work in progress? Is that not how you read this?
1
@Geoff The most intense pressure on
boys to conform comes from other boys, so I have no clue why you're apparently trying to blame feminism.
7
The ideal man is still supposed to be tall, dark, and handsome. I rarely see women with shorter men. I see women with short men, but the woman is always shorter. To me, the most revolutionary thing isn't gay couples or interracial couples. The most revolutionary thing is a woman with a shorter man. I think women very vigorously promote the notion that a man should be tall or at least taller and that height is the measure of manhood. This may be more true in the US, where pro sports require height (unlike in soccer). Outside the USA, Lionel Messi is the world's most popular athlete.
153
@richguy
"The ideal man is still supposed to be tall, dark, and handsome."
...and have a lot of money.
12
@richguy The market rules are that in couples men are supposed to be taller, be better educated, and make more money than women. Young women's market assets are good looks, older women's? Older men's assets are power and money; young men's?
4
there's one big exception to this rule. money. it does not make men any more handsome, but it does make them taller.
3
“Girls have been told they can be anything they want to be, and it shows. They are seizing opportunities closed to previous generations — in science, math, sports and leadership. But they’re also getting another message: What they look like matters more than any of that.
Boys seem to have been largely left out of the conversation about gender equality. Even as girls’ options have opened up, boys’ lives are still constricted by traditional gender norms: being strong, athletic and stoic.
These are findings from a new nationally representative poll of 1,000 children and adolescents 10 to 19, along with other research on this age group, which is not surveyed often.”
So, who exactly are telling girls that “what they look like matters more” than being smart in science or math or being good in sports and have leadership qualities? I do not totally disagree with this assumption, but is my assumption what the 1,000 children and adolescents polled feel as well?
If kids genuinely feel pigeonholed about how they look or should be feeling, i.e., strong and stoic, then I would hope parents and teachers would step in and help dispel these one dimensional and rigid characteristics many kids are believing to be true.
My mother simply wanted me to be happy and explore that passion which most stirs my soul. She was always supportive.
If girls constantly worry about how they look & if boys are expected to be strong & stoic, is it any wonder why suicide and drugs come into play?
25
@Marge Keller,
"So, who exactly are telling girls that “what they look like matters more” than being smart in science or math or being good in sports and have leadership qualities?"
^^^The 'who' is found right in the article itself when you read what these kids said: parents, teachers and peers, society at large - -the very sources you "hope would step in and help dispel these one dimensional and rigid characteristics many kids are believing to be true".
Your mom, (who sounds AMAZING), may be the exception, rather than the rule - especially if you are part of older generations.
You last sentence is very telling, tragic and true.
7
Might the pressure to play sports also be due to that being seen as giving one a leg up for college admissions, with possibly a scholarship to go with it?
11
@Jim S.
There's also the fact that women can get scholarships just for BEING women.
Even though more women enter college than men each year...
7
@Tyler Harris My graduate school "class" in biochemistry was 15 women and 3 men. This idea that women are underrpresented in higher education or STEM needs to die.
1
No matter what gender, all people should be able to embrace their true, genuine emotions. Our society's pressures on boys to be tough and hide their emotions leaves them more likely to lash out against others - whether that's through sexual abuse or gun violence. While girls are more able to express their emotions, even they have limits. I cannot tell you how many times as a girl and woman I've been told to stop being so sensitive and to stop crying - we are judged for having authentic emotions. We wonder why rates of depression and anxiety are skyrocketing...while some of it is no doubtingly clinical, and a lot of it circumstantial, a lot of it is also coming from suppressing emotions instead of learning how to cope and work with and through them.
The truth is that all people should be allowed to truly express themselves and no one should be shamed for it, ever.
133
@Laura OK, but would you be attracted to a man who didn't hide his emotions? Are you sure? Picture a man being obviously afraid in a potentially dangerous situation, or crying in public. Wanna date that guy?
1
@Laura So you don't want men to hide their emotions? Sounds great. But is it what you really want? Picture a man showing fear in a potentially dangerous situation, unable to stand up and defend himself or the others around him. Picture a man crying in public over an insult that has been hurled at him. Wanna date that guy? Didn't think so.
1
@Laura ''The truth is that all people should be allowed to truly express themselves and no one should be shamed for it, ever.'''
Donald J. Trump and a crew of haters thank you.
And the person who cried "Fire" .
Gender norms are unlikely to change any time soon, except in small ways. It's the US's culture, path dependency - history cannot easily be undone - and the fact that most immigrants coming into this country come from traditional countries themselves. That said, I was wondering if boys need to fit gender stereotypes can be allayed with a modern variant, being fit and mindful.
Although not a traditional man myself, I've been working out for over 30 years and was formerly certified as a personal trainer; it expires after 2 years. In my 30's I competed in low-level athletic events for running, orienteering, and rowing, enjoying a moderate degree of success, winning less competitive events as an individual or as a member of a team. Fitness provides me a robustness and physique - I'm not an Adonis by any measure - that few would deride. Mindful is a bit of a curveball, but I recently read of a study showing that mindful people' feel less pain, the focus being that "being aware of the present moment without too much emotional reaction or judgment" helps people tolerate pain.
My point is that one can satisfy the demands of masculinity without engaging in what people typically think of as traditional masculine endeavors, nor does one have to suffer under the typical understanding of stoicism.
16
@James Igoe
"Gender norms are unlikely to change any time soon, except in small ways. It's the US's culture" No, I don't think it is. It's nature and the way we've evolved. Like it or not, a good looking girl is more desirable (even unconsciously) just as is an athletic "buff" male. We weren't thought this, it comes from within.
16
@serg - I think you are narrowly construing what I wrote to only mean appearances, and only concerned with attractiveness. Even then, you are taking issue with just one of the items I mentioned, just US culture, but ignoring its history and the background of the people coming to the US. Even more, these are more contributors to the US gender norms, but the idea that there is some single, genetic norm of attractiveness is fairly absurd since it is heavily influenced by culture, history, and economics.
I don't think that women are looking for buff men but men that are smart, can contribute economically and can understand a woman's point of view
Every American should be concerned about how they look. A person's appearance and weight correlates with their hygiene and good health. While you shouldn't try to be someone you are not, there is nothing wrong with being the best you can be. The movement to tell people not to care how they look and to accept being overweight does more harm than good. We have a health crisis in America due to lack of good diet and exercise.
194
@Mike- Really? Not caring how you look does not equate to acceptance of being overweight. “Every American should be concerned how they look” is not the message I want my kids to internalize, but it is a nearly impossible battle. Unsurprisingly, your comment is already the most-liked comment on this article. I don’t think your comment is based in reality, the reality that kids/teens face airbrushed, instagram-perfect images constantly, and the pressure to conform and look like every other kid is enormous. We live in a country where kids having plastic surgery is becoming acceptable, and the celebrities who are honored in pop-culture are famous primarily for their (often unnaturally modified) appearance. Health is important, but equating it with appearance should be saved for dog shows. Not the values I want my kids to learn.
187
@Mike,
What you said is very worthwhile, but I don't think you are reading the OP correctly to draw that conclusion. As the article clearly delineates, instead of a healthy outlook and treatment of physicality, just the opposite happens - a gross distortion focusing on an unachievable perfection is foisted on children (mostly girls) from a very early age and that perverts roles and affections for both sexes. (If that makes sense, which I think it does.)
It's a very real problem, which hopefully, future generations are ironing these issues out, even as we speak.
7
The issue is confusing one's personal desire for a person with their overall worth. A woman can be fit and well maintained but if she chooses not to wear make up, blow out her hair, wear heels and not follow conventional beauty standards, she's not attractive. I don't see what personal desire for a person should have to do with overall regard. Honestly, unless you want to pursue a relationship with someone, how they look and their sexual preference shouldn't really factor into how you think about them.
13