I watched the Real Time episode and though Bill was way over the top in his response to your interruption. I was surprised by it. Usually that type of thing, an interruption, is expected on that show and that is why his response was so weird. It was a little weak on his part.
I don't feel bad for too many people. It's hard to be sympathetic when what I see is a lot of self inflicted lunacy. Most people believe in things. They believe in things for which they have no evidence to support their belief. This includes men and women. You say men are stupid and unfeeling. Sure, that's true. I think men and women are pretty much the same. I see a lot of stupid and unfeeling all over the place. I could be way more supportive of both men and women if they were more likely to live in a world of evidence and truth, but mostly they don't, so again, I don't feel bad for too many people. Especially in countries that elect their leaders democratically. If things are crazy and injustice exists, whose fault is that. It's the fault of people who believe in things that they have no evidence for, which is most people.
9
I really like Bill Maher. I really like Michelle Goldberg. What to do? Get them back together to discuss. Good for everybody.
15
it is odd how so many here have to say a little nice word about #metoo before criticizing the author as if that might make other perceive them to be a good person for promoting this silly notion that celebrates victims
3
@Anne/Portland. I find it very disturbing that you and a few other of the commentators here are willing to summarily dispense with the idea of 'due process' when it comes to #metoo accusations.
The idea of 'due process' is the foundation of justice and the rule of law which underlies any democratic society. When it has not been adhered to in America it has led to the lynching and rape of black men and women, the humiliation and destruction of careers in the name of Rooting out Communists, and the illegal seizure of land, massacres of thousands, and eventually confinement to reservations of Native Americans. I can only assume that for those of you willing to nix the idea of due process in the name of #metoo that if you, your husband, brother, son, father is falsely accused but hung in the court of public opinion you will consider this 'a necessary sacrifice ' to 'the cause'.
Although we still have a ways to go, much progress has been made in the last 120 years re women's rights and equality in wealthy Western democratic societies. Prosperity, democracy, and the rule of law seem to be the fertile ground necessary for the advancement of human rights and progress re 'justice for all'.
Let's advance the struggle for freedom from rape and sexual harassment of women and children, and all their human and civil rights through calling it out fairly and changing the laws and enforcing those laws. The politics of revenge, demonization,and shame merely perpetuates the same.
29
The women who were harassed until they lost their jobs or careers didn’t get second chances.
I doubt the consequences these men will face will last nearly as long as what they have done to others. Why do they need a second chance in addition to getting off lightly?
32
They feel bad for themselves and no one else. Their concerns only go as far as “ me”.
29
This METOO business has gotten out of hand, fast! The men involved thus far are in high profile media type jobs and highly exposed to this finge- pointing by others accusing them of “ touching” decades ago in some cases. Judge Kavanaugh is a good example. Every normal male could be suspected of doing something similar in their youth too, and must wonder if METOO will begin stalking them as well ,eventually, as the witch hunt moves relentlessly down the food chain?
4
I read Hockenberry's essay. It is maddeningly self-pitying, but he asserts that he never groped, forced attentions on anyone, made decisions based on his improper advances, etc. I don't know if this is true.
Frankly, it seems unlikely to me, but maybe it is and, if it is, then he does seem to have an argument that he should have been suspended instead of fired. He was also accused of being a racist bully. He denies that too.
The workplace is now a no-tolerance workplace. No tolerance for drugs. No tolerance for sexual harassment. No tolerance for racial harassment.
As it should be, but there's room for compassion and second-chances at the same employer. Not in very many cases, but in a few. Deciding which is difficult. I think that's relatively consistent with what this author is saying, but I might be wrong.
6
Goldberg's lack of interest in accuracy and precision in her false assertions about Jordan Peterson tell everyone the low quality of speaking and thinking they can count on this woman for.
4
While I like "real Time" with Bill Majer, everyone I know has always critiqued him as that guy who has "that kind of" relationship with women: as in, they are ALWAYS much younger, stick thin, models, actresses (the kind who never act in anything you've watched), and nothing lasts. Let's face it, despite his liberal politics Maher is just as sexist as so many of the GOP old school guys he critiques on his show. His endless forays to the Playboy mansion are embarrassing too. Ugh.Can we just stop with this kind of guy already? Yes, you are interesting Bill, but no woman with any real appreciation and understanding of 21st century men wants to hang out with you anymore. You are a throwback and we are no longer in the mood. Grow up.
39
Al Franken's resignation was beyond absurd. What bad timing for him. BRING BACK AL
42
I find it remarkable that this writer remains apparently unconcerned that conviction by accusation is how these men lost their jobs.
Remarkable and horrifying. What country is this again?
In property law, Yale law once taught that your driver's license should be considered property. How about your job?
This is worse t
12
Interesting how there's never anything said about the mother's (women) who raise these men. Why this that?
4
I resent Goldberg's use of the term "METOO Men."
METOO men are guys like me, who were (in my case) molested for years by my aunt when I was a child. Men like Asia Argento's victim, like Avital Ronell's victim. I support METOO because it has made me more willing to speak up about my own experience.
That is one problem with the prevailing view of MeToo, apparently shared by Goldberg: that it is a women-only movement. That so many women have tried to de-legitimize male victims --as in the 2 cases I mention above--sadly reduces the moral authority of this very valuable movement. It is a movement, however, that needs to support male victims , and condemn female abusers.
Ms Goldberg's definition of "MeToo men" doesn't even acknowledge that there are male victims of female attackers.
That is outrageous.
Then there's Senator Gillibrand, who insisted Franken resign immediately, even while she was happy to share her campaign stage with an accused rapist. Political opportunist, and hypocrite.
Such hypocrisy could well sink the legitimacy of METOO.
25
By chance I tuned into the Bill Maher show on which you were a recent guest. I think Bill Maher is a disgusting foul-mouthed teller of sick jokes, which he defends because he is a supposed comedian. I think it was beneath your dignity to be on his show. The "Me Too" movement was long overdue and how the mighty have fallen. Not all men caught up in this movement deserve the same punishment, which usually reduces them to an unemployed social pariah. However, they all must pave their own path for consideration of redemption.
The "Me Too" movement is only one part of a much broader issue which needs to be addressed in society today. It is what I call a "sick society" where all forms of the media today have become far too open, with no thoughts of morality or dignified human values. They don't add much redeeming value to society or serve as role models in life. We need to root out the blatant offenders here too.
16
First I find it interesting that MIchelle Goldberg was asked back on Maher's show. Her 1st time there she advocated for & brought up injustices towards the Palestinians, and that is a no no on Real Time. A friend remarked to me 'she'll never be on there again'. I figured he's having her back because she is considered now by me, and many others to be the best & most articulate writer this paper has. And she's getting very popular. But another commenter has opened my eyes a bit. Ms Goldberg was a big advocate for Al Franken leaving the Senate. I think she was wrong in that view. I'll get to that in a sec. Why did Maher chose to do that closing bit about Franken with Ms Goldberg right there? He could have waited a week. I think he did it on purpose. I think he did it to get under Ms Michelle's skin. And he did.
At first I though Ms Goldberg was wrong to interrupt. Many guests disagree with his last bit but don't say anything. And it is an unwritten rule. I also happen to think Maher was making a couple good points, esp about the Fox News troll accuser. But overall the bit was pretty dumb. Franken was an advocate for all the things Ms Goldberg & I want to happen. I wasn't a big fan of him, thought he was obnoxious. But was glad he was there. He probably left because he didn't think it was worth it to deal with the accusations. If Maher did it on purpose, not only should she have interrupted, she should have really let him have it. .. Interesting to see if she's ever asked back
12
The number of harassment cases fills volumes. and there is no time to consider the individual merits of each. But the guiding principle is that each case is unique and the proper resolution should fit the facts. Solutions based on general principles -- that victims don't lie, that offenders are being treated too harshly, and that forgiveness begins 111 days after punishment --are nonsense shortcuts that are proposed when foolish people try to mete out justice for convenience rather than for doing the right thing.
6
Let's not forget that Al Franken did not have any power over the victims of his sophomoric behavior. That doesn't excuse it but there is a chasm between that and rape. Ms Goldberg and the Me Too movement overreacted in his case using a very broad brush that trivialized real crimes and their victims. The pushback should have been expected when everything has become black and white with no gray in between.
14
Thank you for this. It expresses what I think so many of us feel.
I read Hockenberry's endless essay - it boils down to "me, me, me." and sometimes.. my kids.
What about the women he harrassed -- I bet they quit or their jobs disappeared. Nine months unemployment is not unknown in this country (refer to 2008 crash.)
Figure it out for yourself, guys. We're tired of educating you.
109
How right you are...
"I feel sorry for a lot of these men, but I don’t think they feel sorry for women, or think about women’s experience much at all."
44
This is spot on. I agree with everything and yet there is the question of how do men adjust when every social norm they know, in regards to women, is now suspect? (I have no sympathy for the true sexual predator in this matter) Maybe we as women could work at trying to provide some guidance. After all we should at least articulate what we want vs. what we don't want. Still, even if this happens, will these men try and start from a fresh perspective, or will they continue to ask for sympathy and drone on about how they have been victims. This will be an interesting. journey.
8
While it's true that some men are just boors and behave badly, it's still a choice. It isn't a crime and should not be prosecuted but to turn around and decide the women are lying is wrong. In my first job, two men in the office discussed my body - in front of me - with decidedly sexual innuendos. When I complained, the boss did speak to them but said "they were just being friendly" and they then proceeded to belittle me for complaining. I left soon after and all were relieved, problem solved, for them.
The #MeToo movement exploded so fast because most women have experienced such behavior, and far worse, and been brushed off. True, most aren't predators, who can rot in jail as far as I'm concerned, but to those men who say a wayward comment, off-color joke or inadvertent touch might get them in trouble is not even close to what women are talking about. We are talking about repeated behavior when a request to stop is made and dismissing complaints by dismissing the complainant.
Sexual harassment is repeated sexual comments and is about putting women in their place. It's saying they're not respected except as objects. Sexual assault is a crime. Silencing or questioning women's motives does not make it go away.
To Bill Maher's comment about politics being "touchy feely" so it's more acceptable is appalling. It's not acceptable anywhere. Norm Macdonald has no clue, he's a boor. Whether it's career-ending is up to his audience.
28
"But but but... but what about the men?" What about the poor men?
Here's a thought: if we could spend five years mourning the careers that were destroyed, the trauma that was endured, the hopes that were derailed, the money that women lost because of these harassers, then maybe we could move on to looking into rehabilitating some of the men who seemed truly sorry.
But let's be honest. These men don't bother to be sorry at all because they are too busy saying, "Look what these horrible women have done to my career!" without first saying, "Look what my horrible behavior did to these women's careers!"
Every time I hear someone say this is a witch hunt that has "gone too far" -- and what about "due process!" -- especially in cases where a dozen or more women have said the same thing about a man -- all I hear are the words of a man who has himself probably harassed dozens of women and is afraid of the consequences. To which I say: I'm glad you're afraid. You're losing the power to grope, humiliate, and threaten women until they fall in line. You should be afraid. Not because this is a witch hunt, but because it's not.
41
Once upon a time, it was widely accepted that no child who claimed to have been sexually abused could not be telling the truth under any circumstances. Many years and many ruined lives later, we have learned that children can be subject to influence by overzealous investigators. Let's not make the same mistake with the #MeToo movement, shall we? I have no doubt that most of the #MeToo allegations are true. But we must never discount the possibility that such allegations may sometimes be made by people whose motives are corrupt in some way.
16
These men felt entitled to molest, harass and rape. Then they felt outrage that there were consequences for what they KNEW was bad behaviour (although they'd mostly done it long enough to believe there would be no consequences).
Now they feel entitled to compassion for their shame and suffering, and to forgiveness (without doing what is necessary to gain forgiveness).
I see a pattern here.
27
For more of the never ending "due process" people.
Where's the due process for the general public that you are practically mandating to go see Louis C.K. et al?
We already established in a prior post that women blackballed, fired or derailed didn't have due process for what happened to them.
But, these people's rights are violated if everyone doesn't do exactly what they want!
8
What I think these men have in common, like Trump, is outsized concepts of their talent, importance and value. Implicit in their calls for forgiveness and redemption is the unspoken "have you forgotten who I AM?" But the people they attacked had no value to them, except as unlucky recipients of their sexual expressions. So, no. No forgiveness. I want them to be shunned until this crazy vision of themselves as above decent behavior completely subsides. I want to see gentle meekness. And if and when they achieve that, they will know better than to go about demanding forgiveness. Until then, let them stay disappeared.
19
"Most people shouldn’t be defined by the worst thing they’ve ever done."
Aristotle says that one virtuous act does not make a person virtuous; the opposite is also true.
7
Gents of a thoughtful persuasion just might reflect: "Oh how awful to be accused of something which just is not true of me. Hence how awful for women to have to deal with harmful assumptions about them which are based entirely on stereotypes. How come so few people have asked me to think about this? How come other men are so likely to diss me if I even broach the topic?"
7
Absolutely brilliant, as usual. And I'm particularly glad that Goldberg found a way to address the excruciatingly awkward moment on Real Time when Maher dismissed her objections to his minimizing the problem of unwelcome groping with classic male chauvanistic condescension.
15
Michelle Goldberg’s vilification of Al Franken and support of women in the Senate (especially the always-conservative Kristin Gillibrand) who called for his removal was absurd and misplaced. He was, and continues to be, the most dynamic and forceful of the progressive Democratic voices against the horrors of Trumpism. If he is sidelined, the Democratic Party’s chances in 2020 are slim.
12
The deeper questions are about - of course - the abuse of power. Hockenberry is an excellent journalist, presumably was concerned with how authority and power are wielded against the vulnerable - yet he apparently was not in control of his own effects on women. The question arises - then just how meticulous was he in really holding men in power's feet to the fire, or really interrogating power? The times - especially - call for all of us to really grapple with our identities and relationships. "First do no harm" would be a great starting place, rather than "I should get what I want when I want it."
"We are who happens to us and what we make of the happening." -- Facebuddha: Transcendence in the Age of Social Networks
7
What do you do with me?
I was a teacher for a legit for-profit college. My subject was criminal law. After my first lecture in my second semester, a student approached me and told me she had been raped. The information came out of nowhere and I lacked both training and the experience to know what to say. I knew enough to know that anybody who could help her had to be an expert, and I was not. So I made a lame excuse and went on my way.
Before the next class, I searched online and found what I thought was helpful information. I printed it out and gave it to to the young woman, telling her that I knew I wan't helpful but maybe this would be.
The next I knew, I was charged with harassment. On re-reading the printed extract, I didn't find anything improper. But if she did I wouldn't second guess her.
Under the law I did nothing wrong -- my intent was pure and the printout was not inappropriate on its face. I don't think the young woman was out to get me. But I think she was too traumatized to see things clearly
Bottom line, the college couldn't afford a scandal and neither could I. This was just a side job and it didn't amount to much. My agreement with the school was that I would resign and they would drop the matter.
I walked away from a teaching job I liked because of an accusation that may have been made in good faith but was entirely groundless.
This happens, Ms. Goldberg. And your suggestion that it never does is simply wrong.
20
In general support the MeToo movement. This correction to our society and culture has been overdue. However, what should be pursued is justice, not retribution.
Justice needs to be proportional to the crime, or offense. Absolute, zero tolerance policies where the death penalty is handed out for every and all offenses is not justice. Sending all those whom the mob finds guilty to the guillotine is not justice.
Also, whether it's primal mob mentality, or the extremism coursing through our politics, there seems to be a lack of moderation that contributes to injustice rather than justice.
6
Here's the deal. Just as Washington and Jefferson could own slaves and still be good guys because those were the values of the time, men of the baby boom generation deserve a bit of slack for treating women as pieces of meat.
I write this as a quintessential 61 year old nice guy. I never forced myself on a woman except, maybe, arguably, when I went to 2nd base at 14 years old at summer camp after asking permission and permission was granted but not really.
In my teens and early 20's more than a few women made me feel that I moved too slowly, that I should have been more aggressive. And then there were the macho guys, the man's man sort of men who also made me feel like being more aggressive, like pushing past the soft noes was what a man did.
So... when I hear a story like that of Brett Kavanaugh (who should be refused in favor of Merrick Garland), I'm a bit sympathetic. Teenage guys are trying to figure it out...
8
@Mike Marks And teenage girls pay the price, sometimes for the rest of their lives.
Really, no sympathy for Brett Kavanaugh and his friend.
10
It’s so important to distinguish between what a person actually does and what the person is presumed to believe. There are a number of acts, including some speech acts, that qualify as either crimes or professionally unethical. But being thought to be a “misogynist”or a “racist” is essentially being accused of a thought crime. Now we are in totalitarian territory. Now we near sending people to re-education camps like Chairman Mao did. Now we are in a place which Americans should not want to inhabit.
11
Great work here. Maintaining fairness and common sense while nevertheless insisting on clear, rigorous thought and maintaining high standards is in fact possible and the right course, if not always the easiest course.
19
Restorative justice principles might work here.
The perpetrator first does a self examination of the offending behavior(s) and identifies who he's wronged and how he's wronged them.
Only then does he ask for forgiveness.
My experience is that perpetrators of offenses against women have rarely taken responsibility for their actions, recognized them for what they were and the harms that they caused, sought forgiveness and made any attempt whatsoever at reparations.
This model would be a place to start.
27
I am broadly supportive of the #MeToo movement, but I seem to recall that there were some pretty good reasons to question the credibility of Franken's accusers.
When allegations of this nature are brought forth, they should certainly be vigorously investigated. But when there is little substance behind them, I think it is fair to question the motivations of accusers. The alternative is to assume that every accuser is necessarily telling the truth, and that no one ever makes such accusations as a result of corrupt or impure motives. But that, frankly, defies what we know about human nature.
60
@Mark Kessinger
Coincidently it also defies constitutional protections such as due process.
15
There’s too much at risk to attain such a level of proof, which doesn’t apply anyway since criminal sanctions cannot be imposed by the court of public opinion.
1
@Mark Kessinger In Franken's case there was a disgusting photo. To a comedian it may have seemed funny; to a woman not so much. It humiliated her, on purpose. Most women's motives are about stopping men from treating them as if they don't matter.
4
Justice will be served if Kavanaugh has to account for his male aggressive actions as a teenager. If he is confirmed in regards to the Supreme Court. If Susan Collins votes to confirm him along with her buddy from Alaska. If both women don’t listen to the public the movement doesn’t protect everyone .
Justice needs to be for everyone and these men are just sorry they were caught not for their behavior.
20
@Tony
This is a tired, eleventh hour attempt to derail Kavanaugh's rightful confirmation as Justice. An incident that *allegedly* happened thirty five years ago, when he was in *high school*, that is denied outright by him, where the accuser is anonymous and he is otherwise supported by umpteen tens of named women who have had close contact with him, should be the basis for his rejection in 2018?
The outrage that the left felt at the treatment of Merrick Garland will be a melodious whisper compared to what will happen if the hysteria of the MeToo moment eclipses him. But the Democrats will try it.
5
@Tony
Did I miss some news? Have they now agreed with the charges levelled by Anonymous II?
1
Bravo for this. This is exactly what the advocates for temperance and "due process" and forgiveness are doing -- eliding the fact that the price paid hasn't yet prompted any of the accused (that I know of) to actually DO anything about what they did. Not whine about the injustice but actually enter the experience of the injustice they inflicted. Thank you Ms. Goldberg, for this and for your heroic efforts to redeem the Times' now nigh-permanently disappointing Opinion roster.
27
@Gregoire7
I must have missed something, Gregoire. Due process was supposed to determine WHETHER they did anything, last time I looked.
6
Nobody seems to have articulated what specifically any of these guys should DO to earn back a respectable place in the culture. One size does not fit all. And some are clearly beyond redemption. (Clearly Louis CK didn't meet whatever standard is out there in his recent attempt to return.)
Who should judge? The immediate impulse is to say the people they harmed. So, take Louis CK for an example. Who specifically would be empowered to set the terms and to decide if those terms had been met? There is a list of women who justifiably feel aggrieved. Who decides who qualifies to be a "voting" member on that list? Would the decision have to be a majority one, or would any one dissent be sufficient to block the return?
And then there are those in society in general who, though they have not been personally damaged by Louis CK, feel the damage he did to the culture is such that it made the world feel less safe for them. So are such people reduced merely to the option of refusing to watch any of his work ever again?
And then there's Franken. I believe that was a right-wing set-up job designed specifically remove one of the most conscientious and effective senators of recent years. Would the people he allegedly offended be satisfied by public and specific apologies? Or does Franken truly believe that he has done nothing to apologize for? And, if so, would he barter insincere apologies for his return? And what would that cost us all?
Or do we just say to hell with everyone accused?
20
@Jeff
Re: "Nobody seems to have articulated what specifically any of these guys should DO to earn back a respectable place in the culture."
Gosh, I thought nobody seems to have articulated what specifically the culture should do to earn back respectability.
It has lost respect for due process and accuses individuals without proof and/or trial and due process--and ruins jobs and reputation on the basis of accusations alone.
This goes against everything this country used to stand for, but which is no longer explained to students. If you don't teach it, it is not absorbed naturally. This nation and its liberties for the individual is the culmination of thousands of years of civilization. But we have become determined to no longer explain its exceptionalism in the history individual's rights in the world, and what we see today is what you get when you drop that very important ball. There are America citizens who don't even know this is wrong, and you can read their "thoughts" right here.
7
@Jeff Every individual must decide for themselves if they feel a perp has redeemed himself. However, in making that decision we should heavily weight input from the victims. Franken wasn't a right wing set up, it's more this: a lot of misbehavior in this world is black mail collateral. People are allowed to attain power only provided that they give the puppeteers something to hang them with if they go out of bounds. Really. This is why people on the fast track are taught misbehavior. Did you think fraternities were an accident?
2
Though I am an admirer of Michelle Goldberg, I deplored her call for Al Franken to step away from the Senate, and still do. He did no harm, attacked no one, was punished for a photo of a gesture he had made in fun many years earlier when such gestures were accepted by society. Her stance then was, "though his offense was minor, he must be sacrificed." She hadn't the guts to go against the media storm that raged over the photograph, didn't have the guts to say, hey this is overblown, this is going too far.
I deeply feel that Michelle Goldberg's reasoning was immoral, unAmerican, and far more corrupting to public ethics than the infraction of good behavior that she was bent on punishing. It is especially galling now to read her "as I do," acquiescence to a wish he might return to the Senate. The same moral ambivalence is at work in this article. Shame on you, Ms Goldberg!
66
@August Becker
I don't know where you were raised, but in the circle of women I have traveled with in my 61 spins around the sun "such gestures" were NEVER accepted. For too long men have been getting away with this kind of behavior because women didn't believe they had the power to do anything about it ~ in fact in policy/politics women didn't have the power. We have and are gaining more power. I, too, miss Al Franken on the Senate floor. I'm wondering why he hasn't started some of training for young men teaching them what respecting women looks like. It certainly doesn't look like what was portrayed in the photo or the words of the women who have come courageously forward to begin the process of changing what you believe was once "accepted by society".
15
@August Becker
Exactly who accepted such behavior years ago? Not me. That kind of thing was humiliating then. Should I have seen it happening to another woman, I would have definitely been angry. That kind of behavior wasn't as enraging as seeing some other behaviors, but I would have understood it as a power play, I couldn't win.
I simply don't believe anyone who says they didn't want to embarrass and anger the woman.
7
Michelle - I saw you. Putting up both hands when Maher signed off - effectively saying, "Heh, it wasn't me, I did nothing wrong. Don't blame me." Your earlier verbal interjection smacked of being a nightclub heckler during a comedy routine. Perhaps you need to take a little ownership of your transgressions. As for #metoo - can we all get a little perspective? Not every transgression is the same. And, perhaps a little forgiveness is in order. Do we need to "protect" everyone from everything at all times?
35
@Richard Jewett The men who have committed various offenses (yes, I understand that NOT all offenses are the same) need to invest something of themselves in apology (a real one, not the all too common "I'm sorry that the person took offense..."). Also show remorse and offer restitution (financial? figuring out how to help women advance their careers- as Ms Goldberg says, these idea men ought to be able to come up with ideas - how about asking the women harmed what they would value?). Forgiveness cannot be demanded from a victim - I am a pastor and deal in forgiveness all the time, but generations of women have been seriously harmed by being told (often by men) to forgive the offender. For the record, I would love to see Franken back in the Senate, after he provides an example of how to earn trust from the people who would re-elect him.
12
Mr. Hockenberry is apparently aggrieved at the perceived outsized and disproportionate response from the court of public opinion to his sexual harassing behavior, and blames the women he harassed for exaggerating the harm.
Is it so hard for men not to be intoxicated by their self-importance to treat women respectfully? Lots of men seem able to do so.
35
I have no problem with a man being expected to pay for his own bad actions, and if he refuses to acknowledge the pain he himself has caused, he deserves the pain he gets. However, I draw the line at expecting a man to pay for centuries of sexual harassment and victimization that women in general have suffered.
I don't think it's okay to destroy a person's life because, well, women's lives have been hindered and destroyed, so it's payback time. A person is responsible for his (or her) own actions and their consequences, not actions taken by others no matter how much pain those actions have caused. Everyone, male or female, deserves due process, to have their grievances listened to and investigated, and for justice to be done when a wrong has in fact been committed by that person. Justice should be proportionate to the crime -- there is a big difference between an off-color joke and rape. I don't trust the court of public opinion to get that right; it's too easy to jump on the bandwagon.
We should also realize that if the rules have suddenly changed, it is unfair to penalize people for what they did under a different set of rules, ex post facto. (I'm not talking about sexual assault, which has been illegal for a long time, but about the low-level obnoxiousness that was previously tolerated). There has to be an adjustment period while behavior adapts.
28
Due process is a legal concept that should be confined to the courtroom. Outside that venue, it does not apply to public opinion nor especially to any victims response.
6
Simply put, Right On!!! Michelle Goldberg nails it on the head.
Where is the understanding by these men that their actions were traumatizing to their "victims"? It is imperative that these men grok the reality of women's lives in the workplace, and use their power and privilege to rectify the culture so that this subject is no longer part of our daily discourse.
Until they do, women will continue to speak up, speak out, and your venerable reputations be damned.
19
"Don't judge." We hear it all the time, usually in reference to guilty pleasures like binging on "Survivor.
But then something like the Me Too tsunami hits and we get permission to judge. Judge him, Judge her. Hell, judge ourselves for our lack of compassion or an abundance of it.
I joined Me Too. And I am glad that all genders are finally scared of being outed for creeps they are at heart.
As for the judgement thing, I'm 74 years old. No time for it. So next time someone asks me "Is it too soon for Louis CK to come back?" I'll be kind and simply ask, "Louis who?"
17
Maher's commentary was cringe worthy, your interruption was a necessary ballast. However, he is indeed pretty spot on with a lot of things, and given how much that man talks I think it is remarkable how much he gets right. But, this time he is completely off--mostly for the sole reason that he isn't seeing it from the woman's perspective.
That being said, Franken's crimes were mild. In addition, in such mild cases, once someone admits to themselves that what they did was wrong they should be forgiven. But, if he wants back into the senate he has to win back his seat anyway. Let the good people of Minnesota decide.
31
@C. M. Jones The good people of Minnesota were never given the chance to decide (BTW - a majority did NOT want him to resign) The decision was taken away from us by the - yes. I know the word is charged with meaning - hysteria that reigned at the time of the accusations against him. There was no actual proof that Senator Franken "groped" anyone's bottom. Yes - he put his arms around women in photos as women put their arm around him in photos. The woman who claimed his hand was in the wrong place was having her photo taken with Senator Franken by her husband. Senator Franken is not only a very decent man but a very smart man - would it not have been due process and wise for the Ethics Committee to do some actual investigation into the allegations before calling for his resignation. I am one of his (former) constituents and am much, much more sad than Michelle Goldberg that he is no longer in the Senate. I hope she will take it on herself to look into the facts in Minnesota before asserting - without investigation - what he is claimed to have done.
17
To all who worry about the "lack of due process".
What due process did the women get when they had to leave jobs or were even blackballed from entire industries for complaining or even merely resisting?
Shouldn't ALL of them come back first?
44
What do process did they seek?
5
@Wisconsonian
It is difficult to prove the guy put his hands on your thigh even if many men saw it. The potential witnesses are not going to risk their jobs, especially if they didn't want women in certain occupations.
@Wisconsonian: Well, lots of the female athletes being abused by their coaches rerported the behavior for years or decades and nothing was done. Lots of women report sexual violence and it's not pursued. Lots of women get forensic rape kits done after assault and the kits sit unprocessed on shelves because they're not deemed important enough to process. Women often seek due process and it's not given.
Norm Macdonald - a comedian. Good one
Michelle.
1
I agree with much of this, but I agree with Bill Maher that All Franken should NEVER have been forced out of office. There needs to became degree of measurement in the Me Too movement that is sorely lacking.
35
@Philip Kraus Because you feel the democrats should have been hamstrung by a politician continually answering to yet another claim, instead of fighting Roy Moore, or offering vibrant new candidates. Franken was more important than the entire health of the democratic party?
That's privilege indeed.
5
@Philip Kraus It was timing, charges of only one side gets punished after several Republicans were forced out. His removal was less #MeToo and more political. Hopefully he will run again. I think his state will forgive his long ago behavior and he can turn it to his advantage by talking about men and bad behavior and change.
1
If one wants to be forgiven for something he did wrong, that forgiveness can only come from the people he has wronged. Have any of the “MeToo” men personally and sincerely asked for forgiveness from his victims? Legal acquittal is one thing, but moral forgiveness is another.
A general comment: It is a hard truth that sometimes people we agree with politically or admire artistically behave wrongly as persons. Life would be much simpler if political and personal actions lined up neatly, but that’s not necessarily the case.
19
The bottom line is why shouldn't men be held accountable for their actions?
Most men do not assault and grope and humiliate women. The ones who do--whether handsome or ugly, whether rich or poor, powerful or not--are making a CHOICE to do so.
And for those talking about 'mob mentality,' the MeToo movement wouldn't be necessarily if women were treated fairly and respectfully when reporting sexual crimes. Until that happens, consistently, then expect women to use whatever means they have to call out the behavior.
And if people think MeToo is too aggressive or has 'gone too far,' me thinks you're projecting.
36
Adults in all shapes, sizes and brainpower typically know the difference between right and wrong whether they respect the distinctions or not. Our choices and resulting consequences are self borne and not necessarily excusable unless a gun was held to your head. I have no sympathy for men and women who abuse others sexually. You have earned your reprobation.
10
Al Franken made the mistake of forgetting that when in the Senate one must stop being a comedian. He did the honorable thing, although if he had apologized and admitted that his judgment was poor he might very well have kept his seat. I do not consider him in any way a misogynist. Ms Goldberg, on the other hand is using an issue that has gone way beyond the pale to further her career -- not so honorable that. There are a lot more important things to write about -- Hello, the gap between the wealthy and everyone else continues to grow! Now that all men are terrified of saying to a female colleague "I like the color of your dress" for fear of retribution, I think we can move on.
9
@Penningtonia,"He did the honorable thing, although if he had apologized and admitted that his judgment was poor he might very well have kept his seat."
did you miss it? he DID apologize for his behavior and admitted that the women would be uncomfortable with that.
11
You were one of the first to call for Al Franken's departure.
He took responsibility for his actions, but was forced out.
Do you feel bad for him, as well?
15
There will be five men dictating that women MUST five birth even if it is AGAINST their wills....Couldn't trust Hillary ? Too bad that every vote does not count. As long as the electoral college is law, women will suffer in perpetuity...
10
Ms. Goldberg, having watched that show where Maher snapped at you, I had a feeling you’d write a rejoinder to the incident and the issue. Speaking for only this man, your points are very persuasive.
9
I always watch Bill Maher on HBO as I was watching his show last week.
I am glad you brought it up Ms. Goldberg as I saw you interrupted him which was rather rude for a seasoned NYT writer.
So Mr. Maher rightfully set you straight as you broke his chain of thoughts, also was hard to understand what you were trying to saying.
I agree with Mr. Maher, as he was right what he said about the accuser.
People like yourself are not really helping the Democratic Party.
Mr. Al Franken should be back if not in 2020 perhaps next time. Hopefully one of these days Mr. Franken would run for Presidency when trump becomes on a dot in the history.
16
@B.Sharp Maher did not tell the truth about what brought Franken down. Goldberg set the record straight (actually leaving out the charges at a radio station). She did absolutely right.
The idea that fighting for the rights of women brings down the democratic party is fairly well the most sexist thing out there.
If Franken can clear his name, we will all welcome his back. If he can't, he is not more important than the party.
11
Michelle, I am so glad you wrote this. I have been thinking about this all week. It really stuck in my craw! I loved seeing you on the show and was horrified when Bill started in on his forgive Al bit. I am disgusted with Bill after hearing that. He doesn’t get it. So many men don’t, and you spoke up as a champion for women, so thank you for being you!
14
@Rachel Power It wasn't just that he wanted him forgiven. He wants him to be President. I think that's taking forgiveness a little far.
It may be completely possible this is all a set up by Roger Stone and if so then Franken can find the proof and prove it. We'd all love to see that. But until then. No thanks.
2
A year ago we were applauding Taylor Swift for taking down a man who did something similar to what Al Franken is accused of. I'm sorry to see him go, but it's the right thing. He should know better. Elected officials should be held to a higher standard.
17
@ebattny
Before we start talking about holding elected officials to a higher standard, we should aim for a realistic goal and get them to behave in accordance with normal standards.
Out with corruption, dirty money,
Out with the hypocrisy of professing "pro-life" values, and demanding that one's own inconveniently pregnant lover get an abortion.
And so on.
After they've practiced abiding by society's rules, perhaps we can set some higher standards.
3
You mentioned this in your post, but women are also being exposed as having been predatory towards men. Saying that the issue with men is their patriarchal upbringing neglects the fact that women are also being accused; it seems more believable to blame the predators’ behavior on their willingness to exert power over others.
7
@Rohan Chanda
Sure, and some of the inappropriate behaviors have been a two-way street in which women have complied and then, when it was no longer advantageous to comply, complained.The important thing is that all of it is called out, recognized as unacceptable in the workplace, and stopped.
3
@Rohan Chanda The vast majority of sexual violence is committed by men. This is a clearly established fact. Sometimes white people are shot by the police, but that doesn't change the fact that police brutality is rooted in racism. In the very same way, even though some women commit sexual abuse, sexual violence is rooted in misogyny.
8
@Rohan Chanda Seriously? What percentage of sex offenders are male? What percentage of victims of sexual abuse are female? Sexual abuse is an extremely gendered crime. Yes, some women sexually abuse men. And yes, sometimes white people get shot by the police. Neither of these facts changes the reality that sexual abuse is rooted in misogyny and police brutality is rooted in racism.
11
An excellent article on the complexities of the #metoo movement. Like everything in life, the problem is often analyzed in black and white terms. This piece explores the grey tones.
8
It seems that the lesson of #MeToo is "don't harass women or they will rat on you and you will lose your job and ruin your reputation". The movement will only succeed when the lesson is, "don't harass women because it's wrong." In most cases I don't feel bad for them (although Franken's punishment doesn't seem to fit the crime) at all. Yes, there is a spectrum and not all harassments are the same, but until we all agree that harassment is just wrong, #MeToo will not have impact.
17
@Indy Anna Women have been saying that for millennia and nothing has changed. The take away is - there have to be real-world consequences or no one in power (men) pays any attention.
11
@Indy Anna Sadly, "Power concedes nothing without a demand." Abusers know that abuse is wrong. It's only by holding these people accountable will we stop them from committing abuse. Had these men known they would lose their jobs & reputations, they would not have committed abuse.
11
Interrupting Bill Mahar told me all i need to know about the author. She thinks her OPINIONS are facts and more important than anyone else's.
26
@Pat Bill Maher is a misogynist. Michelle Goldberg is much more intelligent and compassionate than Misogynist Maher will ever be. I'm glad she interrupted his misogynist rant. I hope more women will follow her powerful lead.
10
HBO can easily fix that by removing Maher so he won’t be able to be interrupted.
3
What I feel bad about is that our legal system is broken when it comes to these blatant serial predators. It's not just #MeToo, and it's not just women. Look at the abusive priests in the Catholic Church.
If the cops found the DNA of a missing person in a guy's basement, but there wasn't any other evidence but that one thing, you would probably not want him convicted of murder. It would be reasonable for the prosecutor to refuse to even put him on trial.
When the cops find the DNA of ten missing people in a guy's basement, you want the serial killer locked up now, thanks, and not to give him ten separate trials where in each one the prosecutor doesn't mention to the jury that they found the DNA of nine other people.
We need a system that allows victims to report sexual assault and harassment without necessarily pressing charges right then, alone, but keeps a record of their report and flags it for prosecutors after the same perpetrator has been reported multiple times, and that punishes organizations when they ignore multiple independent complaints about the same person.
When victims can rely on the actual legal system to protect them, they'll stop turning to the court of public opinion.
22
Agreed but also note that many male transgressions are not criminal acts. They are not in violation of any law, code or statute currently on the books. An unwanted look, for instance. Holding the door for a woman who finds such an act offensive. Attending a show where Louis CK, announced or not, appears on stage. Cheating on a wife or girlfriend. The list is endless. Yet some kind of sanction is required for each of these. At the very least, the minimum needs to be shunning. Refuse to work with the offender. Ignore them if they’re your neighbor. Break off friendships with them. Expel them from any association they belong to or faculty they use - gyms and churches come to mind. Then increase the penalty as the grievousness increases.
2
Michelle, people tend to get defensive when they are accused of being sick monsters because of some selfish/sexually inappropriate male behavior. Are you really surprised?
Men like John Hockenberry, Al Franken and even Louis CK are basically decent human beings who made mistakes. As icky as what CK did, it seems clear that his goal was not to humiliate others so much as to indulge himself.
There are a million ways to be a selfish or a jerk or a horrible boss, and not all of them destroy your career.
Frankly, the most misogynist thing about Bill Maher's plea on beahalf of Al Franken was his claim that Franken was uniquely qualified to take Trump down. Elizabeth Warren has been doing a terrific job of getting under Trump's skin and she can dish it out as well as any man. I think the fact that looking to Biden, or Franken, or even my congressman, Joe Kennedy III, smacks of sexism.
17
@DebbieR How do you know that "John Hockenberry, Al Franken and even Louis CK are basically decent human beings"? On what are you basing this declaration? Would you defend men who've committed racist abuse in this way? Or is it only the abuse of women that's so forgivable men must not lose their wealth and status for committing it? Sexism is every bit as unacceptable as racism. "Decent" men do not commit racist OR sexist abuse.
16
@DebbieR "Men like John Hockenberry, Al Franken and even Louis CK are basically decent human beings" On what are you basing this declaration? Do you know these men personally? Because one criteria for being a "basically decent" human being is to refrain from abusing your power over other human beings.
5
DebbieR,
Yes, Ms. Warren is doing a fine job. But she lacks the biting sarcasm and satire that belittles and punches twice as hard, that Franken delivered with his sardonic smile. An ignorant, bulling troll, such as Trump would be made infantile to a comedic wit of Franken.
He is missed.
Misandry is also sexism.
8
I want to see Michelle Goldberg write an opinion piece on the women who voted for Trump in 2016 and who still support him. What about the women who work at Fox News who defend him, knowing about the infamous Access Hollywood tape and he cheating on his three wives?
To my mind, these women belong to the #WhoCares movement. What you say?
28
Each woman gets to set her own bar for what she accepts. To deny her that right is itself offensive and misogynistic.
2
Clarence Thomas slid past all his sexual harassment accusations back in the 90s. Times have changed, the true test of the MeToo movement is now, if Bret Kavanaugh is held accountable, finally. How can we have 2 supreme court justices facing sexual assaults? The President? And countless congress people, who have never been held accountable. Because assaulting woman is normal? Because women asked for it?
Come on folks, do not let Bret Kavanaugh in the Supreme Court. It will be shameful for the MeToo spirit.
36
It is truly astonishing that so many powerful men needed to, seemed to compulsively behave badly in a world where no end of women came on to them, in part because they were powerful - Weinstein is an exception here, I think he was physically just too ugly for any of the pretty ones to offer themselves to him to get a role in one of his films.
9
I usually like Ms Goldberg’s essays, and I like and appreciate most of this one, as well. But on one detail, I think she misses the point; or, perhaps better, doesn’t distinguish a difference.
I refer to her comments about Al Franken, and Bill Maher’s apparent diminshment of Franken’s accusers. The hand-on-the-backside stuff is unacceptable; but the photo of the sleeping woman is in a different category.
First, he didn’t actually touch her. Nor is the photo explicit in any way—not, for instance, like revenge porn can be—so it’s hard to understand that the woman really suffered anything very dire.
Second, there was an unmistakable whiff of opportunism about her protests and her many appearances, and the short-term boost the attention gave her career. The women in my life and I all picked up on this. Wouldn’t a better response, for all concerned, have been ‘This was wrong and stupid, and if you ever play a prank on me like that again, I’ll break your face’? Give the man a chance to aplogize, to discuss, and save what can be saved.
240
@Bill
The photo was gender-based humiliation.
Just imagine if it had been race-based, and think about whether ANYONE would then be saying it falls into a grey or excusable area.
9
spleary, I understand and appreciate your excellent point about gender-based humiliation.
But gender-based humiliation, while unacceptable, is not sexual assault.
Penalties should reflect that significant difference but currently do not. Every man caught seems to lose all. Weinstein and Moonves should lose all and more but the penalties Al Franken was dealt seem too harsh. I am a long time feminist and am relieved that #metoo is so strong and successful. But I am very uneasy with the broad brush. It creates distrust and it should because it’s not fair or ok.
13
@spleary As a woman, I thought it was kind of stupid (as in sophomoric humor), but not particularly offensive.
3
I really can't believe that you equate an unwanted hand on a backside with career termination, public disgrace and unemployment. There has been contemplation of the reactions women exhibit over this pain. And it has scratched its head in wonder.
10
@Timehook: It's a continuum of behavior. When we shrug at 'low level' gropes and grabs we signal to men that they can push the boundary even further. And then they does. And gets away with it, and goes further.
19
@Timehook
Just keep your hands to yourself.... how hard it that?
There's also the context that women generally are paid less than men for equal work, experience and education. I believe it's connected to your trivializing groping..... and to sexual harassment at work.
11
@Kati
We must approach this argument dispassionately, no? A man keeping his hands to himself is easier than many women suppose, so carried off are they by their own resistless attraction. Where in these milder cases are the women who say stop, no, don't do that? Where are those intrepid speakers-up who say no and keep saying no? The response to this question is usually that such harassment hinders career prospects, and is therefore unfair to women in the workplace. But men have faced unfair career obstacles also, and many careers have ended at the hands of unscrupulous bosses. Why are women suddenly worthy of this solicitude while men have never been? The worst sexual harassment cannot share the same ballpark with work issues, including physical injury and grave bodily risk, that men have faced for centuries. Are we to allow this special protected space in the workplace for women? Does that not harpoon the notion of equality?
How dare he ask for sympathy and not forgiveness. He should have thought about his children before harassing and propositioning his colleagues. Men who behave this way, I believe, are emotionally immature, like our president. They are unable to limit their libidinal impulses to the proper venues. Beware the females who cross their paths. Fortunately, not all men are so afflected.
24
The court of public opinion, which has empowered the metro women, is a wonderful thing. The societal norms the maintained tolerance of intolerable acts has crumbled. The same thing that has empowered them has empowered folks that are rightfully disenfranchised: Nazis, conspiracy nuts, and others. The me too movement does not want their new found power curtailed at all. I don't blame them. I see a difference in offense between a priest raping children over decades, and a comedian, who flaunts his or her neuroses, and by custom must talk about lewd sexual fetish or shame, or quirky sexual act to appeal to the comedy circuit, in the first 30 seconds of an act or be considered 'unfunny'. Metoo, don't give up your power, but do yield to sorting out levels of impropriety, levels of -- well, sin. The idea that all sin must be rooted out should include all those I know on their second and third marriages: a court hearing must be held to determine in there were angry words during the divorce, or infidelity with their net spouse while with their first. All sin must damn all to hell. No? Well then, its up to you. What do you do?
2
Hey Michelle have you heard the term 'Innocent until proven guilty'?.
9
Bill Maher is a misogynist and always has been. I know little of his personal life but I find it illustrative that he publicly counts Ann Coulter among his intimates. In addition to his hostility towards women, he clearly thinks that anyone who earns blue collar money and doesn't vote his way is a complete moron. He's the only one allowed an independent vote, of course. Please remember that when Al Gore ran against George Bush, Maher and his buddy Michael Moore urged people to vote for Ralph Nader, thereby inadvertently throwing the election to hanging chads and the Supreme Court.
But frankly, Al Franken was thrown to the wolves by an NRA political operative. That he resigned is on him, not the MeToo. I wish he was still in the Senate but that's up to the people of Minnesota.
19
This should appear in print.
2
I'm still amazed at how the #MeToo "movement" is a onesided argument. Yes, there're men of positional power who abused their authority. Yes, many men have and continue to behave badly. But, what about women's role? Are all women just Bambi's hopping through the woods and being preyed upon by Wolf-men? Do some women, I mean, outliers, use some form of non-verbal communication to encourage or suggest sexual attention? Like, for instance, bending over towards a man sitting at a desk to expose more cleavage or a better view of the same? I'm just saying is there a possibility that both may have been doing something wrong?
Forcible rape is one thing. But, a fanny pinch after a willful cleavage show is another. Yes, even if it was encouraged or suggested an individual has a right to withdraw that consent at any time. But after the fact?
What the MeToo "movement" is attempting is a retroactive removal of consent. Even demanding that the context and version of events of the incident attested to by the accuser's be assumed right and accurate on all accounts without a sliver of facts to support them. This is an enormous power grab. The #Metoos weapon is a moral cudgel to exact the same abuse of power that they are claiming as the sources of their unique victimization.
19
@Smoke'em If U Got'em,
'If she had been a hairdresser, or if she had slept with a young apprentice, it would have been different. - The Deputy Public Prosecutor, referring to The Gabrielle Russier Case, where a thirty one year-old teacher in Marseille, her mother was an American, had an affair with a sixteen-year student. She was sentenced to jail, and took her life.
A Canadian journalist, Mavis Gallant, covered the above tragedy and began the first sentence "to translate The Gabrielle Russier Case into American terms, you would have to improvise a new society...the reason for this would not only be a long history of American jurisprudence, but the prevailing belief that a Don Juan is simply exercising a normal role in society, whereas women have been troublemakers ever since the Genesis".
This might be considered a retroactive story of shame, but it appears that we have a long way to go, and there in lies the shame of men with no remorse.
5
@Smoke'em If U Got'em
So you are suggesting that if a woman isn't covered from head to toes (Like in Saudi Arabia by law) she provokes groping in the office? And that her attire means consent?
Most men do not grope, they do not sexually harass women (or men) they work with or who work under them. Is that to much to ask that you keep your hands to yourself?
10
@Smoke'em If U Got'em. I agree with this. In interactions between people, there is a lot of high context communication going on - body language, dress, implicit speech, etc - all are forms of communication. .. According to the Metoos- is low-context communication (explicit verbal communication) the only valid way to communicate now?
1
I'm 47, and there's maybe one time I was on a date and went in for a kiss and was rebuffed. Maybe two times I was in a physical situation and the woman didn't want to go any farther, so we didn't.
I'm a white male, and #MeToo taught me that every single woman I know has felt uncomfortable from the way they've been treated by a man or men. Men need to wake up and think about that, and I've somehow made it through my entire life without "accidentally" grabbing someone's genitals. Franken and the other males should ask their victims what they can do to make up for what they did wrong--or, if Franken and those other males feel they didn't do anything wrong, they should let the courts decide.
I believe in forgiveness if someone did something wrong and are trying to make amends for it. If these men in public want to return to public life, then they need to account for what they did publicly by either owning up to it and asking for forgiveness or let the courts address it. Maher's piece was sloppy and Franken trying to run for office would be a boon to the GOP.
160
@Scot Yonan
RE: your suggestion we 'let the courts address it.'
How exactly did Senator Franken break the law?
5
@manta666 I don't know if Al Franken broke the law. If he didn't, then I think he should explicitly say so. But if he did behave inappropriately with those women (and it's difficult for me personally to believe that Franken would resign if he didn't), and he desires to work once again in a public position, then he should publicly address his behavior and privately see what he can do to make amends to his victims. And if he did allegedly break the law, then the matter should be addressed by our judicial system.
Regarding the Bill Maher show and Michelle Goldberg’s interruption, I thought Bill Maher’s chastisement of her was rude and demeaning - not in keeping with his usually respectful manner with the show’s guests. I found myself weighing whether or not he would have spoken to a man with the same annoyance.
24
@MBP why is her interruption (opinion) so important or valuable? I was left not liking the woman and appreciating Mahar's not tolerating AH behaviour.
9
@Pat Because Maher said it Franken leaving was all about the photo with Tweeden and it wasn't. It is very likely Franken could have stayed through an ethics review but there were one claim after another of hand grabs and finally inappropriate behavior at a radio station. She was merely ensuring that Maher was accurate.
As to your "not liking" her. Yeah sure, she tells you what you don't want to hear so suddenly she's "unlikeable" and we are to assume you aren't a sexist. Um no.
It’s my belief that more women will be hurt more severely by Al Franken’s exit from Congress than by anything he did to any woman. This is my response to any fanaticism or reductionism. These never turn out to be helpful.
34
@Dagwood...Agree. There are reports where businessmen are hesitating to include female co-workers on business trips now , out of fear they could be the next METOO “ victims” caught up in this escalating man-hunt..
5
But, but, but...Al Franken is not Bill Maher. You can't attribute your problems with males and #MeToo to guys who are only making up commentary to please an audience. Has Al Franken been insensitive about this? Does he deserve your assessment that men are not appropriately contrite? Bill Maher is not a good example of "thoughtful consideration of everybody's feelings" and never has been. Maybe he hasn't gone over to the #MeToo darkside, and that enables him to say whatever the heck he wants, but you shouldn't attribute his comments to somebody else.
The headline had me going here, like: The Shame of MeToo men. I thought: men who claimed to be sexually assaulted or abused were unfairly piggybacking on "your" movement, how dare they. I'm glad that was not where you were going. But here you are actually attributing other people's statements to a group of men that may actually be being punished beyond the pale. I do hope Tina Smith is advancing as progressive/positive an agenda as Al Franken was. So far, I've heard little in that direction.
5
Michelle , everybody needs to move on women as well as men . This goes beyond shame and shaming , it deeply affects those involved and keeps harming their psyches and emotions . The attention the#me too movement brought was very much needed but it needs to be put in its proper place , not beaten to death or you lose the momentum of finally getting men to realize it is not ok to sexually harass women . Bill Maher is a comedian , you agreed to be on his show and he punked you , get over it . Meanwhile the movement needs to get back to the beginning , and not let distractions , false accusations , celebrities , and sensationalism get in the way.
3
Men and women never really understood each other in the first place, but somehow got together often enough to reproduce the species so it could continue this tortured dance. Maybe #MeToo is the end of our kind.
10
@John Jabo
You're wrong. One of the hallmark of our species is the gift of speech. There is no need to rape or humiliate anyone in order to reproduce. All you have to do is ask and act according to the answer (and also the demand--- this might shock your Victorian attitude but women too want sex at times but with selected males or one selected male) (I say "Victorian" or "Puritanical" because of the lack of speech before sex, also the lack of pleasure when a partner you have sought says "yes").
And what on earth has groping (of females but at times also of males) have anything to do with reproduction? Look at a picture of human male and female reproductive organs if you're confused about being asked to keep your hands to yourself in the work place.
7
Calling Norm MacDonald a comedian is like calling Trump a normal president.
Insulting and mocking people for laughs is the lowest form of humor.
10
Not all demeaning behavior by Hockenberry was sexual, I had an encounter in the 1980’s on a story he was doing on cable access and included George Stoney. After relying on my work to arrange interviews and contacts in Minneapolis he completely cut any credit for my work in his story.
He was smug, arrogant and manipulative. I never trusted anything he reported on again, and I suspect no co worker ever did either. And I can guarantee you Hockenberry has no real understanding of his behavior nor should he be hired as some kind of a reformed humanist.
14
Gee, I wonder who raised these men? Want to own this ladies?
Don't mistake where I'm coming from many men are complete ignorant jerks and worse, but why? My mom was not an award winning mother but she did inculcate truth telling, respect, and the importance of taking responsibility for one's behavior even if she often fell short.
You're gonna blame the mothers?
11
@The Iconoclast
And what about the fathers?
5
@Jim Hannon
As the mother of two sons, I assure you it is not unfair to question the way these men were brought up.
Point taken. But the author was out of line interrupting Bill Maher. It is his show, she was just a guest. Act like one. And as far as Al Franken is concerned, I'm with Bill. The female legislators that ganged up on Al were wrong. K. Gillibrand is just an opportunistic hack.
21
People are afraid to call the #metoo and all it's other names what it is, which is complete and total garbage. It has no connection to all people being treated with decency and respect and having a greater existence on earth for all people with no one left out. #metoo is all about clickbait and drama and will not last. It's a black and white interpretation of life that is unsustainable and is promoted by anyone who claims to have been victimized, it is not promoted by people who have earned societies respect from a life well lived and shown a integrity.
6
Lets just cut to the chase. Any behavior that a straight man would never do to a straight male boss is not to be done to our around women either. Sexual harassment, like spousal abuse, doesnt start out with rape it starts out in "testing out" mode like off color jokes, mentioning of womens appearance, staring at parts of a woman that is not the face, licking lips, even standing too close etc. etc. Women who have been assaulted are probably more sensitive to these cues. It is simple for men to get the hang of treating women like humans, just treat them like you would another man but drop the sexist jokes and language.
17
Another Norm MacDonald appearance canceled by NBC? Compared to the people that censored him, he should now be running the place. Recall that with the first episode, Tom Brokaw, their professional talker good guy, had declared Richard Jewell guilty of a serious crime at the Atlanta Olympics on national TV before he had even been charged with a crime (Mr Jewell's zealousness at the time had probably saved many lives from an anti-abortion bomber in an Atlanta park). A few weeks later Mother Teresa had died, and in a very apropos SNL skit, he had Mr. Jewell on and asked him to prove he hadn't had anything to do with her death--a pointed rib at Mr. Brokaw and NBC news, who apparently believed in "guilty until proven innocent" if big advertising money was on the line. They wanted a big terrorist bombing incident, like Munich, to go away to keep them happy.
Fast forward to today. NBC, now NBC Universal who are doing everything they can to make internet TV and dramas pay for view--if anti-trust is supposed to be for bigness controlling markets and gouging customers, look no further than cable and the telecommunications companies now trying to grab this business--NBC has suddenly gotten holier than thou with their professional talkers and their enablers, firing them left and right for long running sexual harassment.
When Letterman asked Norm what he was going to do about his firing, he said, "I donno, I guess drink a lot." That's where we still are--he deserves some credit.
3
Wow - Shabash, Michelle! Might as well include Bill Maher in those group of men, even though he has not yet been officially implicated in misconduct - shaming the WOMEN who Franken groped? I'm glad you interrupted him - you should have continued to explain his offensive obtuseness.
7
I feel bad for men too. They. Don't. Get. It. Their internal dialogue must be so confusing, "But,why wouldn't a women like to be told she has nice legs from a colleague? And women should feel grateful and so appreciative that a man would pay attention to her". They don't get that it changes the power structure in the business relationship.
That being said, I think that all men shouldn't be painted with the Harvey Weinstein brush. It's been a slippery slope for Al Franken and Garrison Keillor. Should they be accepted back into public life? Did the dirty limerick Garrison Keillor wrote erase 40+ years of the good? If Al Franken and Garrison Keillor committed the same crimes as Harvey Weinstein, Charlie Rose, Matt Lauer and others they should go to jail and rightfully be obliterated from public life. Dirty limericks and fake groping photos aren't crimes and we need to stop treating them like they are. In bad taste, yes. Crimes, no.
26
@AD - when talking about "degrees" of sexual harassment its kind of like there's no such thing as being "a little bit" pregnant.
2
I saw that Bill Maher segment. I agree with you. Also, it was more than an awkward moment when you interrupted him. "It's not your turn, you had your turn, it's my turn....." is not something he would ever say to a man who interrupted him. Bill Maher's anger and annoyance demonstrated his fury that a woman would dare interrupt him to give her opinion on the accusation of sexual misconduct by a man against a woman. Bill Maher and many men have a lot of self reflecting to do. They should shut up and listen.
18
@Devaughn I agree with you. I am an avid viewer of Bill's show and did show his annoyance at being interrupted. There were also a couple of times where he asked "why doesn't Harvey understand he can 'get' more women by being charming" or romantic." Along those lines, but you get it. He doesn't understand that bad behavior of men towards women is a power play, often to degrade or humiliate.
6
@Devaughn For the record Bill HAS shut down men who interrupted during the show's traditional closing segment, which is always prefaced with "Thank you panel, now it's time for New Rules". This should indicate to the guests that the panel discussion is over. Admittedly Bill was a bit terse, probably because this has happened before. Not really defending him as I do think he's a bit misogynistic, but having a prepared bit interrupted is akin to being heckled. Guests should familiarize themselves with the format.
1
@9kguy Sorry, but women have been interrupted by men for decades - that is if they were given a seat at the table and allowed to speak. A study of the supreme court demonstrates male justices interrupted RBG repeatedly over the years.
It's simply not their turn in the context of sexual misconduct. Period.
Spot on - and, i think Kay, in the readers comments, captures it well. Those that own it, take responsibility for their actions, and make amends, will and should be let back in. Those that don't - well, for the Harvey Weinsteins of the world, prison is the answer. And, while I don't hold out hope that our "groper-in-chief" will ever find a responsible bone in his body, we must at least must stand for that it is possible - for anyone and everyone - otherwise, we are really a sham of a civilized people.
1
If the accused men cannot:
1. issue a genuine apology
2. mean it
3. continue to demonstrate remorse
4. understand why women are completely done accepting such behavior
Then they aren’t gonna be forgiven and NO they can’t get your life back. Because women who’ve been assaulted don’t get their lives back either.
Is that clear enough?
18
@Suzanne If Louie goes on tour I am buying a ticket and if Franken runs for Office I am voting for him.
Is that clear enough?
9
It's clear but dangerous. You seem to require all accused men, whether guilty or not, to apologize and continually demonstrate remorse. You make no distinction between behaviors or even consider the possibility of innocence or misinterpretation. This one size fits all conception is what threatens to undermine a serious consideration of the problem of harassment.
8
ck made no excuses and he did apologize. Al’s named accusers’ stories were between implausible and impossible and all he said in his own defense was he remembered things differently. But Bill loves himself so much he makes it hard to side with him.
2
Bull, Michele. The #MeToo movement is going into the realm of mob mentality, and I sincerely want many of these men not to have their careers upended. Franken SHOULD come back! And Bill Maher had mega points on what he was discussing with you!
If it goes too far, backlash is inevitable. There are crimes, misdemeanors, ....and imbecilic boorish behaviors that can be fueled by alcohol. Women can get into the same bar room cavorting. I’m getting worried about how far this goes.....
16
@Marti mob mentality, or mass awakening of the oppressed?
10
@Marti Franken did nothing wrong. We are living in a world that includes internet world now overlapping with real world and opinion and reality are overlapping in new unexpected ways. The guy did nothing wrong in the real world that half the planet has not done once in their lives, act like a jerk and think it was funny.
9
@Marti So, the culture has changed. Let's all be puritanical.
A very nice piece of writing. I don't agree with everything in it, but this is exactly the level of tone and precision we need to get clarity on this issue. None of us are "woke" yet, but some of us are waking. This kind of article helps that process.
7
Great editorial.
Salient point: Abusers don't seem to be acquainted with the concept of "empathy" when it comes to the experiences
of women in the workplace or (likely) anywhere else.
Conclusion: Women aren't regarded as human beings deserving of respect.
This is bad for all of us.
18
Why feel sorry for them? They knew what they were doing when they did it. They thought they would get away with it, and when they didn't, they're victims? Give me a break. I've dealt with harassment and abuse throughout my life and taken it on the chin, so now it's their turn. Suck it up, buttercup.
13
@M. There is no evidence at all that Franken 'grabbed ' anyone's butt. Franken did thousands of photo ops in public venues like State Fairs. The two accusations made of butt grabbing were subjective interpretations with no visible evidence in the photos. The women's husbands were standing a few feet away. This is why these accusations becoming 'fact' to so many and being the cause of ruining this man's life is so wrong. It has nothing to do with him being liberal or conservative. It has to do with him being a human being deserving due process on a charge that is so trivial and questionable that it is absurd.
33
@Gwen Vilen
Well put, but by METOO’s criteria if the woman says it happened,...then it happened as she says it happened! No matter if it was many, many years ago and a brief touch, say. It happened !
3
Ms. Goldberg's question of "What ideas?" men might come up with to make changes in their behavior towards women: a full awareness that females have been unwillingly placed by males into a corrupted sphere of being thought of by males (whether consciously or unconsciously) as "lesser" based on their being viewed as different from males. This is not a female idea, and needs to be changed.
Of course this type of viewpoint is also a false power construct that tries to place women in a position of "difference," as though inherently there's something devalued about being non-male--unfortunately often allowing of some male behavior that is out of control and insulting to females.
Somehow women are expected to allow a perpetuation of this wrong-thinking by quietly living with disrespectful, or emotionally damaging, or work-interrupting male behaviors.
In the 1970s a great number of American women were meeting together on a frequent basis in so-called "Consciousness Raising" groups which allowed them to better understand what was going on in their lives by expressing with one another their personal experiences. This awareness led to females and males facilitating major public and legal changes that have benefited American women during the last 40+ years.
Perhaps male consciousness raising groups would be a good start for men "getting it" that females are not targets but are instead separate and fully autonomous in our own right.
8
In Franken's case who knows what he really did. The heading hunting in his case was premature. He was never given a chance to defend himself. Also Franken's offenses didn't happen when he was a politician but when he was a comedian and a performer. Lastly, the first woman to accuse Franken was a right wing proponent. It is not unreasonable to ask if her main goal was to get Franken.
22
@Daniel A. Greenbaum He was given a chance to defend himself and the charges kept coming. If it was as some suspect a smear campaign then the best thing he could do was get out of the way and end their plans. This is politics. We don't need distractions.
The idea that one man's second career is more important than an entire party and the health of a nation is precisely what male entitlement is all about.
Workplace sexual harrassment seems to be both way under reported especially by more vulnerable people like women of color, young people, and low wage workers, but also widely abused. Allegations of sexual harrassment and her cousin hostile work environment are frequently abused by employees trying to settle grudges or avoid performance discipline. So there can end up being a bias against not dismantling someone's career over a he said, she said hard to prove allegation
For creative people who earn their living based on their reputation with the public - I think these men may be more willing to acknowledge the women if they thought that approach would get them public support, but I suspect many of them rightly believe that to the extent they can downplay the allegations and make themselves the victims the public is more likely to embrace them again - everyone likes a "underdog/ redemption" story - even when the dog in question deserved their time in the dog house.
3
Michelle Goldberg writes,
"Shame, in my experience, feels even worse than injustice."
But it is also injustice to accuse men falsely of harassment or to exact cruel and unusual punishment for actions which were once regarded as OK.
Let us remember that in the old-fashioned days the man was EXPECTED to ask the woman for a date.
There is a question regarding what constitutes sexual harassment. Perhaps nything from asking a woman for a date which she regards as "inappropriate" to taking political views which differ from the latest teachings of feminism to outright assault may count. Depending upon the woman's feelings.
There is also the bandwagon effect. If women believe that all men are predators they may reevaluate dates that they had in the past, decide that the man in question had the "wrong" political views and decide perhaps unconsciously that yes it was harassment.
Monica Lewinsky seems to have claimed at the time that her affair with Bill Clinton, but more recently states that it could not possibly have been consensual because of the power difference.
60 women can jump on the bandwagon for somebody that they want to hold up as an example. But is it justice to assume their stories are true because they have appeared in print?
There is the issue of due process. Why exactly can a man be removed from his job with no opportunity to defend himself? With no opportunity to confront his accuser?
The NY Times participates in what could be called media lynching.
9
A person can be taken advantage of in such a way that it seems consensual. Sometimes many years have to pass so this can be seen objectively for what it is: sexual assault. I know; I've been there.
2
@Jake Wagner
Monica Lewinsky isn't claiming the affair was non-consensual. But she is claiming it ended up on so much shame she tried to kill herself. (watch her TED talk). Now she is active working against bullying.
The morale of the story is that a mature powerful man should not have an affair with a young intern. (and remember Clinton got in trouble not because of the affair but because he lied to Congress.....)
2
"because men aren’t proposing paths for restitution. They’re asking why women won’t give them absolution."
I have trouble reading you (but I read anyway, because I think I should). Seems to me that you have problems with two men--Hockenberry and MacDonald. Me too. I happen to be a man, and I haven't done anything against a woman ever in my life nor would I stand for it. It's no fun being stereotyped, whatever your sex.
4
@tanstaafl Why thank you for pointing that out. It’s not like literally every single non-white male in America hasn’t lived like that forever.
2
The #MeToo movement is here and has been now for over year. Many claim that innocent until proven guilty has been ignored in the court of public opinion. Why is that?
What responses have we seen in our society in response to #metoo? Have our governmental representatives done anything to change state and federal laws or at least examine them for fairness, etc.? Have large corporations like CBS or GM instituted a review of their policies and practices regarding sexual abuse?
Has the NYT conducted a review of their policies? If no, why not and if yes, what were the results?
It seems that the #metoo movement is stuck at first base and despite much hand waving I have seen and or read little about real change occurring. The only real difference seems to be that people are more careful now - they don't want to get exposed - or praying that past discretions stay buried.
The #metoo forces need to move beyond the public outing into vital and real change in our laws, regulations, policies etc at all institutional levels to address the real problem of sexual abuse.
That's the hard work required that has little to do with headlines.
4
Hockenberry, Louis CK and others like-minded don't seek redemption with these apologias. Rather, they want to return to their old lives, when they had privilege and belonged to the right clubs - artsy NYC, progressive, liberal - although they lived them as hollow men, entirely in their heads, with no muscle and no heart.
8
I am concerned that you say the offenders want to return to their previous liberal and progressive associations. Members of both parties have offended. The primary difference between the two groups is that liberals and progressives have for the most part acknowledged their behavior and accepted the consequences. Conservatives, not so much.
3
These guys simply don't get it. The only emotion they'll capable of expressing is self pity.
11
I consider myself a reasonable person and feel strongly that harassment should be investigated and punished. That being said, we seem to have become irrational in the absolute condemnation of any individual accused of any misconduct related to harassment of women, no matter how slight. I know I am setting myself up for fierce accusations of misogyny and sexism, but I have to be able to express my opinion.
I will use Al Franken as an example. The picture taken of him and the deeds he is accused of (accused, not investigated or proven), could easily be attributed to a comedian doing dumb things. Do any of these women feel he was menacing? Making someone "feel uncomfortable" has now become nearly a capital offense. We have virtually eliminated him from existence. He is gone without a trace. Does that seem fair or in the public's best interest?
I just read that Brett Kavanaugh now has an accusation of possible sexual misconduct when he was in high school. I am no fan of his, but this vague accusation at this time was a pure calculation done to attempt to derail his approval, not to support #metoo. Anyone who says otherwise is being disingenuous.
We need to have some balance here. It feels like "The Crucible" to me. I don't think everyone should or needs to be burned at the stake for their misconduct. Does anyone think this?
11
Thank you for this. And thank you for "Most people shouldn’t be defined by the worst thing they’ve ever done." Our system of justice depends on this being true.
And I agree whole-heartedly with your assessments, except perhaps for this: "I’m not interested in seeing these #MeToo castoffs engage in Maoist struggle sessions to purge their patriarchal impulses." ... While I agree a "Maoist struggle session" might not fit the bill, I would very much like to see more men engage in self-reflection about gender and patriarchal impulses. Sometimes this may induce shame, but shame is a great teacher. And in the end it will hopefully promote discussion and more honest path toward treating each other with respect and dignity.
4
I suspect that most real predators don’t.
I imagine that the en passant guilty, such as Al Franken, who committed no crimes that we know about, or George H.W. Bush, who might occasionally pat a fanny, feel a great deal of guilt that probably isn’t as justified as some believe it is. But the extent to which real predators negatively affected lives by their weaknesses or their arrogance (or both) was SO extensive that to “feel bad” about the women they victimized would be to acknowledge an evil in themselves that is very difficult to do without serious thoughts of suicide. The more normal, self-defensive reaction to being outed and brought to account for such predatory actions is Nixon’s excuse: everyone has done this since forever, and I’m just the one who got caught chairless when the music stopped. It’s not a very compelling excuse, but it can get the mind off putting a head in a stove and turning on the gas.
And I have no problem with that, so long as the real predators ARE brought to account. As Jeff Goldblum famously quipped in “The Big Chill”, “Who could get through the day without two or three juicy rationalizations?”
5
We're not there yet, when it comes to paths to redemption, and for whom. The conversation needs to continue.
But all perpetrators are not equal. Men who immediately admitted their wrongdoing and were contrite (Al Franken, Louis CK) and who took action (Eric Schneiderman immediately resigned) are in one category. You might parse who did what and how relatively invasive it was, but these men started their own paths to redemption by their actions when accused. They will not be thrown off the island forever. Part of contrition is apology, and part of apology is empathy for those you have harmed, even unintentionally. Saying sorry usually gets a lot of mileage when it is sincere.
The Weinstein's of the world--serial predators--may be beyond redemption. And then there are those in between: they behaved in a way they should have known was wrong, but the standards (and silence) of the day were different than now. So their relative sense of "wrongness" might have since shifted. (It may have shifted earlier, if they had daughters and bothered to ask themselves if their own children should be treated like that.) These men need an opportunity to come back, too. How/when is the question. I don't know the answer.
7
"I feel bad for them. Do they feel bad for women?"
Which "them" are you talking about? Some do and some don't. Some have made (or at least attempted to make) amends to those they harmed, and some have not. Each person who has had some sort of ethical lapse in their life (and honestly, who among us has not harmed another in one way or another?) is on a personal journey that involves dealing with the consequences, recognizing the impact, taking responsibility, and attempting (wherever possible) to set things right. Some make considerable progress along this path, and others don't.
5
I get all of this. I am a 40 year old male. And I believe a shift in culture and behavior is necessary to move humanity to a better place. BUT, in regards to Al Franken, there is no doubt Bill Maher hit the nail on the head. He knows Al Franken. When Maher implies that much of Franken's downfall is attributable to a political hit job, he's: a) supporting that position with facts; and b) is drawing on his own experience to contrast with Franken's accusers, one of whom is the twitter pal of Donald Jr., a frequent Hannity guest, and someone who's credibility is plainly in question based on her political alignment.
We need to balance this desire to punish the accused while maintaining a fair process where the accusations can be tested. You can't just throw these men off the island forever. Now, does the writer have it right about men being aloof to the women they've embarrassed or hurt? Probably. She's smarter than I am. But we need to keep perspective. Franken didn't do anything worthy of being shunned, especially at a time when politics is so volatile and the future seems balanced on a knife's edge. It's primarily liberal democrats who are being forced out of office. Conservative men consistently brush it off and deny. This has the effect of diminishing the political left, creating the conditions for more conservatives to win positions and who will have little or no will to implement any policy that might actually advance metoo.
33
@C Smith
Since K Gillibrand's career reputation has suffered more than Franken's who keeps having people think he was are only decent politician, I don't get where you think he was "shunned". Maher was suggesting he run for President based solely on his belief he can make fun of Trump. Hint so can Warren and Duckworth who have much more expertise in areas you need to be President.
But the conversation on Franken was a distraction. If it was a hit job, it was intended to get Roy Moore elected, not Franken out. It was intended to get Gillibrand and Pelosi called hypocrites. They didn't fall for it. View Franken as a sacrificial hero if you must (though no evidence yet) but his reputation is very much intact.
If given a choice between Al Franken and Kirsten Gillibrand, my choice would be Al Franken. I will not vote for Gillibrand in any election ever again. Her self-righteous indignation about Al Franken reeks of political posturing and nothing more.
26
@susancompletely agree! My senator jumped on her band wagon which was totally out of line. I do hold that decision against her. What gets lost in typical media analysis is the culture of USO shows - which Al Franken has joined. The culture is raunchy and yes, there are some politically incorrect comments as well as much worse. But Al Franken was driven out by KG and she has an agenda - running for president. If she is ever the Democratic candidate I will vote for the Republican one.
5
@susan
And if she'd not done that you'd call her a hypocrite. This is such BS.
1
Three people apply for a job. Two white, one black. One of the white people gets the job. Was this racist? Maybe, but no black person would assert that it was. Now, twenty black people apply for 2 jobs and two white people also apply. The two white people are hired. Is this racist? Very likely so. Do the black people run around screaming and trying to get the hiring manager fired in the town square? Hardly. They dig deeper and if possible, expose the racist choice and try to get the matter resolved. So now take a look at two "metoo" situations. Harvey Weinstein bad and guilty as charged; Al Franken not. It's called discernment, and it is unfortunate that a well-paid NYT columnist lacks this quality. The worst element of the Franken disaster was the democrats (mostly women) who circled the man like vultures around a carcass. Instead of offering him a full-throated defense against a Fox (read that carefully, Fox-- an enemy of the democratic party, a threat to national discourse) employee, and a handful of county fair goers who probably lied. For me the "movement" died at that moment. I will of course respect and defend a woman who truly suffers at the hand of an obnoxious man. (and tell me, who among us has not?!!) But for me, it will be one case at a time, looked upon with the healthy skepticism any he said-she said accusation deserves. And women like Michelle will certainly not be MY feminist voice.
20
Bravo.
3
I am repulsed by how whites wallow in all this without ever considering applying the same standards to their racist behavior. How much better life would be for blacks if they did.
6
I'm sympathetic to men like Al Franken, who never got their due process, and were shanghaied by pols (conservative Leeann Tweeden, in a STAGED photo) who wanted to take him down, in the frenetic rush to accuse every man who ever put a finger on a woman. False equivalency. Shame on Republican-lite Democrats.
22
Did you notice dear read how as soon as #MeToo began shinning a light on cosmopolitans, the cosmopolitans began protecting their own and memory holing #MeToo? and did you notice the writer sounds cosmopolitan? mmmm. But careful dear reader, you are not supposed to notice.
1
Ms Goldberg: Firstly, Bill Maher would have dismissed anyone - ANYONE!! - who interrupted him during the "New Rules" portion - HIS PORTION - of the show; I've seen men and women of all political persuasions wince at some of his commentary, but keep it to themselves. You weren't "awkward"; you were rude.
As for Norm Macdonald's telling Howard Stern one would "have to have Down syndrome...": maybe if you any sense of humor beyond what you deem inoffensive, you'd have seen that he was facetiously using what many would view - Sarah Palin among them - as politically correct as comedians in the past, not fearing exile, would have said something like "you have to be retarded."
His being cancelled by the Tonight Show for making a comment re his friends Louis C.K. and Roseanne Barr - the opinions of others notwithstanding - is beyond the pale.
This now seems de rigeur: find the offensiveness within someone's remark - I'm not talking physical assault; I'm talking about words!
Want to know why comedians with both sets of chromosomes don't play colleges anymore? Read this column.
8
In some workplaces I can recall, if a fellow patted a woman’s backside, he might be slapped and firmly told to stop, and if he persisted he might be punched in the nose by her boyfriend, husband or brother.
2
Or she might have received a bad job review and been demoted and fired. Not everyone has a man in their life willing to risk an assault charge. You really think those days were fine?
6
I feel sorry for them, too. Boo hoo hoo.
2
Simply amazing. You interrupted Bill, if a man had done that to Samantha Bee there would be 100s of think pieces about it by now. You were rude. MeToo is on the way out, I couldn't care less about fragile women who want the world to take care of them, we already killed chivalry, it's not being replaced. Buck up, ladies..
10
all so true. and the men are now guilty upon accusation. "due process" for men--dead. "innocent until proven guilty"--nonexistent if accused by a woman. and now as we change the rules as to what is acceptable behavior and what isn't (which we do need to do), we think it's appropriate to go back in time 20 years and apply the new guidelines to situations when the mindset was different. that's the ridiculous part. and too many women are like frenzied sharks about it. soon it's going to be "I didn't like the way he looked at me"
8
@Charis Chivalry has nothing to do with harassment and assault. You get that, right?
3
@Kay Nothing? No, I don't agree, in the general sense of that word and usage in the last 100 years or so, it didn't prevent those things from happening, but it certainly reduced them. It had something to do with them. It's easy to negate an absolute.
Two years ago: a guy grabs a woman's bottom, she slaps his hand, he smiles impishly and plays it off, the incident is over, and the woman is expected to move on.
Today: women have collectively slapped men's hands. The men collectively smile impishly, try to play it off, assume the incident is over, and are impatient for everyone to move on.
1
Keep interrupting.
7
Glad you came around on Al Franken while your first reaction was to burn him at the stake upon Gillinrand’s orders. AND a good public servant was not given the courtesy of a hearing by the Senate Ethucs Committeefor something he did back in his previous life as a clown, during the stupid frat boy comedy era entertaining g troops. The women were hired to be gawked at, not for their intellects.
You young ladies today need a little history. Start with watching Betty Boop cartoons for instance. You will end up burning almost all the entertainment pre my generation (Vietnam War era).
Al had grown up and proved himself to be a serious man. The world is different for women today, thank goodness. Most don’t snear any more at those of us who first promoted the very word of feminism, because it actually benefitted society.
I believe there are many reconstructed males. Al was not a predator. Ladies, grow up and get some history.
PS. To the now news lady anchor that was working with the SNL goof balls back then, please be serious. You know what your role was back then. You insult the collective memory and intelligence of my generation. Stop whining, let’s allow people to grow up. They are all not Weinstein and Louis.
6
Madeline Albright once said: The most important thing I teach women students is to learn to interrupt. I cheered you when you did! Yes, as you noted, it was awkward. But Maher's angry/annoyed response to you proves your point: he can throw himself around with unexamined misogynist words and expect you to laugh. Smile. Or be quiet. (We're living in a more covert comedic version of Take my wife please.) So, just like he brought Michael Eric Dyson on to exonerate him after his use of the N word -- instead Dyson "schooled him" -- I look forward to his mea culpa with you. I hope you get more than the Yes But he gave to Dyson. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqKtRbEM2WM
9
Michelle, don't you feel at least a little embarrassed at the idea of Al Franken "making restitution" to his "victims"? Look at the conduct!
The stuff Franken did (the photo he acknowledges) and is accused of doing (pinching a woman in the presence of her husband? did it happen?) is silly conduct from years ago. It is adolescent conduct. But it does not rise to the level of calling for penance years after the fact. Nobody has been traumatized. It's shaming enough to be reminded, in Franken's case, how vulgar & immature the conduct was. Franken has apologized. He was still a great senator, and we should have him back. I have things in my own past to blush for, as I'm sure you will admit you do, if you are honest.
13
@ Sharky44. Four of the accusations against Franken were anonymous which automatically makes them suspect and should be thrown out.
One was Tina Dupuy accusing Franken of putting his hand on her waist during a public photo op and squeezing twice in 2009.
One was Stephanie Kemplin who said Franken put his hand on her breast during a USO tour public photo op in 2003.
One was a Lindsay Menz who claimed Franken 'grabbed her butt' during a photo op at the Minn State fair in 2010.
And the most famous one is Leeann Tweeden with the joke photo from a USO tour in 2006 with claims that he groped and forcibly kissed her.
So now you're down to 4. All reported within a 4 week time span, with 3 of them being subjective interpretations of public photo ops in which the photos do not show the said 'offense'; and all of which reportedly happened 9 - 14 years previously.
Leeann Tweeden's accusations are the most intriguing because she is a right wing radio show host, is friends with Sean Hannity and Roger Stone, and because a quick review of the video of said USO tour in 2006 reveals how well she bumps and grinds and kisses on men onstage ( without consent) - which is what USO tours are - raunchy. Her come hither pin op photos done during her 'modeling' days are although worth a look.
After Al resigned, which happened in an eye blink of three weeks, no other accusations were ever made.
People can 'believe' what ever they like: Santa Claus, the tooth fairy. But I'm not buying the above.
15
There are plenty of men out there who are not pigs. Those who want to act like pigs get dirty eventually.
1
@Larry Brothers We don't create our culture, we join it. But we have a range of choices within it. And most people evolve as well.
@Martin
"but about humiliating / clumsy behavior like Franken's or Clarence Thomas's)"
- the case in point re: Thomas. His actions did more than humiliate. They were more than clumsy. They made the work place a - living hell - for Ms Hill and the trial and its aftermath seriously affected her professional career. It was ongoing torture for her at work while it was occurring and he was her supervisor, so what recourse was there in that day? What about her emotional toll?
How familiar are you with the details of that case? Can you imagine how she felt as she went before the senate to detail how, for example, he put pubic hairs on her soda can? The Senate was full of men, many of who at that time still saw women in the legal field as an anomaly. The conservatives saw her as their "enemy." The only concern they had was political expediency.
You can't paint Franken and Thomas with the same brush. The level of harassment was on an entirely different scale.
Thomas' accuser was not believed by many. And where is he today?
Franken admitted his behavior and apologized, suffering the consequences.
This should be part of your - "toward putting those experiences in appropriate context."
8
Guys who make it big in business or entertainment tend to have done so because they were pushy. They were pushy in class, pushy at work, pushy everywhere. They put themselves first. That's true of women too, of course. But they get called pushy broads.
Doesn't mean they're Trumps, with no conscience, no comprehension that other people exist and are real, but it does mean that they tend to think more in terms of themselves and their needs, because to do otherwise would have meant getting stepped on by other pushy people heading up the ladder along with them.
In some cases, yeah--they probably do identify more with men than women, and because a lot of them weren't born handsome, they tend to think they have to compensate for their lack of pulchritude with an excess of chutzpah (and this goes for goyim as much as anyone else). Never had the nerve myself. And had the social life to prove it (good thing I had dogs to break the ice for me).
I don't feel sorry for them, but I agree with Ms. Goldberg that you do have to distinguish between a monster and a jerk. If you treat them the same, you're only doing the monsters a favor.
6
Now here’s a peculiar immunity. Pittsburgh quarterback Ben Roethlisberger has been credibly accused of a series of premeditated forcible rapes of much younger women, which far exceed the villainy of all those accused - combined - including Harvey Weinstein.
Yet sportscasters, including women, refer to him, affectionately, as “Big Ben.”
3
TRANSLATION: I'm sad when Liberals get #METOO'ed.
3
Hardly, read her column calling for Al Franken's resignation.
Most people know the difference between doing something bad to others, even if they want it to be done to them, and doing something that helps others, even if they would refuse the help, themselves. Doing bad things to others, in private is a public health crisis that mirrors the bad things, policy-wise, that the US is doing to other countries in the public and international domain. If the #MeToo movement is going to of any substantial value, we have to develop the "art of hate" as Elie Wiesel put it, or the bullies (like the POTUS) will be getting the green light, like Hitler did, to run us into more harm. Thanks for helping your readers move beyond appeasement and toward developing the right use of negative reinforcement.
2
These men are sociopaths.
3
What a terrific opinion piece. I like how you nuanced this situation. I too feel badly for some of those outed, and it is
infuriating how, as far as I can tell, those guilty do not seem to
have any clue how much pain and shame and career lost the caused on the victims. Yes, it must be terrible to have the rug pulled up, but why are they not seeing the equivalency here?
And I tell you, I have been looking at the way men handle things very differently ( I know women have been predators as well, and I have heard nothing from them either, but I have not yet dealt with that) And Bill Maher was wrong to try and normalize Franken's behavior, I am glad you said something.
See I am now realizing a lot of men tend to do this, blow off the victims as a way... well to what? I do not understand. But again here we have victims blamed, now for disrupting the lives of powerful men. We have these powerful men trying to get away with it one more time. And their pals are trying to aid them.
I do not know what the answer is and yes there should be a way for those who were far less predatory to get back their lives. That said, I doubt I will ever watch anything Louis CK does again. He lost my trust. He knew from the get go what he was doing was wrong otherwise he would not have tried to cover it up and ruin his victims careers.
5
There's nothing stopping Franken from running for office again but linking it to the disparagement of the women he harassed is quite offensive. His actions were documented, he admitted them. Nobody made him resign.
Always knew male comedians were insecure but never realized quite how pathetic they are. Franken, Louis CK and now Norm Macdonald as some sort of victims? Seriously? Of their own stupidity and nothing else.
5
I love and respect your work, Michelle, but I must differ re Al Franken.
Stuff that allegedly occurred in an entertainment context years ago is open to interpretation. And the main claimant there is a conservative radio talkshow host. Just sayin’.
There is scant evidence of any “butt-grabbing.” In thousands upon thousands of the usual arms-behind-waists requested constituent fanphotos ops. Bad hand placement claimed three times, in thousands of such shots? No, not enough there to justify drumming one of our most principled and effective and woman-supporting (both on the staff level and on the policy level) senators out of office — and without first allowing even the most rudimentary of investigations to take place.
28
I call it the "only me" or "poor me" movement by men, and by white people. They are so used to their own privilege, of being wrapped up in the comfort of being superior that they cannot empathize with those who arent them. I caught you on the show and could have told you that he would respond just like that given all his righteous anger about political correctness.
This incapability of men to empathize with women was brought home to me by my three male grad student cohorts. I was objecting to a bigger than life sized poster of big breasted woman in a wet T-shirt hanging in a science lab we used. They told me I was being too sensitive. I was shocked that even tho all three faced discrimination themselves, one was Jewish, one very short and the other was gay (this was in 1972) they dismissed my feelings. At least one of them sheepishly admitted to me later that his wife set him straight and was sorry for being insensitive. The subordination and abuse of women is the original sin of discrimination. If we can crack that nut we can more easily change the rest.
13
yas, queen.
A lot of us who support #MeToo are not bothering too wait for the criticism of women who make sexist jokes directed at their male counterparts, (pun intended) slap butts, carelessly expose cleavage, trade on their sex to gain advantage, and have and are exploiting any and all advantage their sex provides. One does not have to look far to see the massive hypocrisy of the so-called #MeToo movement. Very little intelligence but a decent level of intellectually integrity is required to see the tidal surge of hypocrisy across every tranche of our culture. Take a look at the ads in The New Yorker or pretty much any glossy US magazine, TV programing, movies — and the rolls women play, even the first lady's fashion choices.
I was heartened by Michelle Goldberg's addition to the NYTs OP-ed page. But if she is going to play our societal issues as a one sided female sexist, then I am over her, as I am pretty much over the papers sensationalist exploitation of the nations news.
12
The rules changed. Someone moved their cheese. Rationally-minded males would see only the issue of just penalty.
Which finally shows all of us what doofi they are! They can’t for the life of them see anything other than pleasure emanating from their adorable selves. Deep in their little hearts they are convinced these complaining women are just...mean. Witches with a b.
These guys lose their jobs because of the industry they’re in — media, which doesn’t want its audiences struggling with actual controversy. If a guy or two makes it back in, its because he wasn’t all that bad. I think for some of them that will happen.
As for Al Franken, BRING HIM BACK! He never should have left. Really.
6
Women need to go back to the days of a smart slap in the face of a masher.
Oh right, and risk being fired and charged with assault?
5
Not one speck of sorrow for these disgusting and sick people.
3
Equality means accountability should go both ways.
Yes, the #MeToo movement is quickly breaking down an asymmetrical patriarchal power structure for a more gender-equal, professional workplace - good things in my opinion, but will we hold women that have leveraged their sexuality to obtain professional preference accountable as well?
Yes, I will never know what it is like to be a women, and yes, touching a women's butt without her consent makes her a victim of sexual assault, but ...
There are women that reveal too much, or press themselves against a boss or co-worker to be noticed. As the saying goes, "It takes two to tango". Many were willing participants, benefiting and accepting the reward of our old ways. Can we diminish their professional accomplishment as well?
We changed the rules for a more gender equal workplace. Can we acknowledge that women weren't universally the victim in our old ways?
6
In hear this a lot - but the reality that a few women (never as many as claimed) trade on their sexuality to get ahead in the workplace does not contradict MeToo, it underscores it. That some women have felt that the only way to get ahead was to utilize sex is part of the problem, it was the men in power, after all, that rewarded women for that behavior.
56
You say you wish Franken was still in politics even though in your almost Debut at the times you where the first to call for his resignation
8
“Similarly, Maher mourns the loss of Franken in the Senate — as do I — but seems to lacks empathy for the woman who is discombobulated by suddenly feeling the hand of a man she admires on her backside.”
Here we go again. Ms. Goldberg goes to her political roots and is willfully blind. If any accusers weren’t remotely credible, look at Franken’s. The “backside” story was absurd. The husband stuttered when told he “remembered” it. The airplane photograph was so clearly a prank you’d need to be a 19th-century prude to think otherwise. Franken obviously didn’t touch the (ex-Fox employee and Hannity friend) accuser. And four anonymous accusers? Anonymous? Four?
Then there’s Asia Argento. Nobody wants to talk about grooming a 7-year-old until he’s 17 and then molesting him. They actually paint him with the tar once used on women: “Oh, c’mon, he asked for it.” Let’s forget that it was statutory rape. Where are Milano and Paltrow? Silent in the face of one of their heroine’s crimes. And where are you, Ms. Goldberg? Shouldn’t you be reminding us to believe men, too, instead of Leeann Tweeden, whom nobody half-sentient would believe if she told them what time it was.
The #MeToo movement has forfeited the moral high ground. Read what Paltrow said about her encounter with Weinstein. Then look at Mira Sorvino, who paid the price for integrity. Take a run at that, Ms. Goldberg. Franken, Sorvino, and Jimmy Bennett are heroes. Paltrow? Stop the slash-and-burn and do some journalism.
7
Will Michelle Goldberg go back on Real time again?
The MeToo hysteria has taken on all the atmosphere of Maoist denunciations. It is a toxic brew of injustice for both the wronged and the wrongly accused. Many of the accusers should feel as much shame for participating in this outrageous castration party as the accused. If people have been criminally violated, they should go to the police. If they have been wronged civilly and can prove it in court then that is where they should bring their accusations. If they can not do one of these two things, then they should shut up.
Making public accusations where the accused can not possibly defend themselves, where there can never be acquittal or fair examination of evidence is itself a wrong. It does women in general no favors either.
12
Now here’s a peculiar immunity. Pittsburgh quarterback Ben Roethlisberger has been credibly accused of a series of premeditated forcible rapes of much younger women which far exceed the villainy of all those accused - combined - including Harvey Weinstein.
Yet sportscasters, including women, refer to him, affectionately, as “Big Ben.”
7
Dear Michelle:
Thank you for your words. I am a big fan of Bill Maher but I cringed as he went on about problems with the women who were abused by Al Franken. Bill has some blindspots that he needs to deal with including his denigration of fat people. I also wish Al Franken could be forgiven but not at the expense of the women involved.
Kathleen
4
It is disingenuous at best for Ms Goldberg to talk about how bad she feels now about Al Franken, since she was on of the main voices calling for his expulsion from the Senate before an investigation.
20
I prefer the comedic truth of Hannah Gadsby considerably more than Bill Maher and Norm MacDonald. The fact they those two men don't even get that it's their turn to sit down and shut up on this issue is indicative that they need to update their mind sets.
I started being sexually harassed by men at about 15. It continued way into my 40's. As I got older the harassment changed to being discriminated against for being a middle aged woman in the workplace. Workplaces that are fully run by men.
So essentially my whole life I've had to deal with it. This is what men don't understand. Sorry you're paying a price Mr. Exile but women are just so DONE with the baloney.
8
I appreciated your article here, and as I read Hockenberry's essay, I feel the same thing as you.
Perhaps one of the undervalued conversations up to this point is our culturally ambivalent relationship with sex. Hockenberry does wax poetic about his Byronic views, but it all seems to be confused with mores that have shifted. We talk a lot about our sexuality, but very little about the actionable consequences of it (a point that I think Hockenberry makes well).
It seems we don't know how to have good sex anymore. And it hurting people in a way we may not have ever realized.
2
Thank you!!! I watched that segment on Maher's show and was incensed, and was so glad when you interrupted him to push back, and then crossed your arms while the other panelists applauded Maher's infuriating, obtuse rant. This column is spot on.
9
Everything you say is correct, but it's complex. My wife and I have a married friend and colleague who we know, with certainty, was wrongly accused of sexual harassment, forced to resign his tenured job at a community college and become a pariah. My wife is certain of this because she was present at the alleged harassment, but her testimony was disregarded.
The only explanation we have is that the complainant is generally angry and deeply dishonest, which we have witnessed on many other occasions, and our friend is enormously obese. The complainant found being in the same space with this extremely fat man disagreeable, even offensive, and couldn't stand having him look at her. As he explained sadly, the accusation that he 'leered at her chest' could not be true because, as his wife and former girlfriends corroborate, he simply isn’t interested in that part of a woman's anatomy. It is as though, for that particular purpose, he’s gay, but unfortunately he isn’t gay, and short of being gay, has no acceptable affirmative defence.
After the complaint, a current student approached our friend and demanded a higher grade, to avoid her making a similar charge. He should have agreed, but didn't, out of a misguided sense of integrity. My wife had similar experience with the same student, with a different threat, and responded very forcefully. The student backed off.
His (and my wife's) employer took the course of least resistance, and threw him under the bus. What should we do?
10
The New York Times seems to have adopted the view that any complaint by any woman against any man should have detrimental consequences. This is neither fair nor logical, and it will tear the Left apart.
6
When I watched Bill Maher tell you to basically "shut up" on his show, my anger went to level 10. You are right that men apparently do not understand the pain they inflict with even the small injustices of sexual harassment. I would wager there is not ONE WOMAN that has not had to endure (at some point in their lives) the range of obnoxious behavior that some men feel they are allowed, from misogynist condescension to rape and violence. Its a world they have never had to live in. Please keep speaking out, you are one of my favorites, and know many of us were disgusted with Bill last Friday.
9
@D. Wolff She interrupted him to point out something he was about to point out in 10 seconds, he was quite nice under the circumstances. Can we make up a cute name for that? Shinterrupting maybe?
2
@D. Wolff I can’t find any mention of any other guest on Maher’s show interrupting his closing monologue. Anyone who has ever attended a recording of such shows knows they are highly scripted. Interrupting Maher’s closing monologue will earn any guest who does it a very sharp reprimand, regardless of their sex. The fact that Ms. Goldberg thought she wasn’t subject to the standards of the show tells me that she thinks her sex grants her immunity. And this is a big part of the problem. The ordinary give and take of human interactions becomes all about some “ism” or other. Ms Goldberg has made a successful career out of professional outrage. You say many of you were disgusted by Bill. I’ll wager that many others are equally disgusted by the double standards that Ms. Goldberg applies.
1
As a young woman I received 'my share' of unwanted comments, actions, etc., and became adept at avoiding being vulnerable to them as much as I could. Second nature not to be alone in the file archive room with certain other male employees and so on. Most harassment occurs when there is no other witness.
In mid life I became involved in solitary back country hiking and the wonderful physical, mental, and spiritual benefits it provided. Before any hike, I did not think of the dangers of encountering a bear or breaking a leg, but hoped not to run into that rare male predator in the wilderness.
Men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them.
That being said, most men are not gropers or harassers or rapists or killers, but are decent and worthwhile. It's just the others...
9
The process for confessing one’s own very real sin and then making restitution is one of the reasons religious practice is still meaningful. And practical. Even attractive. You have to be relentless, as relentless as a righteous angel, with yourself and your sorry excuses. And you have listen to others rather than only to your well meaning, eloquent, writerly self. And then religion also gives a path by which to find redemption. Don’t expect people to simply give it! Go build a path towards it.
The kind of person who would exploit a position of power to sexually harass a subordinate, is exactly the kind of person who would exploit his/her position of power to hamper the careers of others, excluding some, favoring cronies. It is neither in the firm's, nor the stockholders' interest when managers advance their personal interest over the interest of the company.
How many women have had careers aborted not just due to such sexist behavior, but to sexism in general? How many female politicians have been disadvantaged by sexist media personages?
Are women of sexual predation, or predatory discrimination to be given a second chance for careers foregone, for promotions denied?
No one is arguing that such men be excluded from employment. But is is unjust that they be allowed to use their experience and credentials, often gained at the expense of the excluded or harassed minorities, to be put once more in positions of influence and power.
7
Spot on, Ms. Goldberg.
If it is asking more than they can deliver to expect some introspection and something resembling genuine regret, then they can stay outside on the porch and be bitter. Whining and anger don't really do it for me. If it feels like they are having to answer for thousands of years of male entitlement and mistreatment of women, yeah, they kind of are. Because that's what we're trying to change.
3
Historically men have felt that they have control over women's bodies. After all, we were "property" without true rights. So when women stand up and say, no, our bodies are our own, many men get up in arms and feel like the victim. This is true in the debate about abortion (which in my view isn't really about abortion but about controlling women -- I mean, does anyone really think there would be debate if guys were the ones who got pregnant?). Not all men are this boorish of course and those males have escaped the mindset of entitlement (Thank you!). But too many are stuck there.
6
I agree with Michelle that some of the high-profile men who have been taken down did far more serious things than others. Weinstein and Moonves, for example, strike me as basically rapists, forcing women into oral sex etc. Franken’s ‘groping picture’ strikes me as more of a very adolescent joke - he is a comedian after all.
But what underlines all these actions is a basic non-consideration of the other person’s wishes and rights. All you have to do to avoid sex harassment accusations is to try a bit of empathy— think of yourself in the other person’s shoes. And if you’re trying to recover from such an accusation, the same rule applies. Stop thinking of yourself and think of the other person.
4
Great article. I completely agree. I saw the Bill Maher moment and thought he completely misses the point. In fact, he has always railed against the #metoo movement to such a degree that it is obvious he is clueless. Much as I enjoy his comedy and his politics he has this one completely wrong. Thanks for responding to his rebuke to you, Michelle, it was cloaked in his show's format but it was still there.
6
MeToo movement- generally good. But I have a few nits to pick.
1- The more strident edge does not allow any kind of defense by the accused.
2- Many in the movement have demonstrated fantastic hypocrisy when predatory women come under scrutiny.
3- Most important, the movement shows zero psychological sophistication or knowledge in understanding the sexual nature of these transgressions. Human male sexuality is different from female sexuality; it is more aggressive by nature. So let's put that irrefutable fact into the calculus.
4
@Crusader Rabbit Adult people of all stripes and levels of sexual and physical aggressiveness must learn to moderate their behavior in situations where society requires it. We, all of us, even those of us who are aggressive, do it all the time. And when we lose our cool there are, in fact, consequences. It is not psychologically sophisticated to insist that "human male sexuality" is somehow inherently uncontrollable and therefore should get some kind of pass when it is uncontrolled. In fact, it is this pitifully low standard that has allowed so much immature and abusive behavior to go on unchecked over the decades, reinforcing the idea that lads and their oh-so-aggressive and uncontrollable urges are simply That Way, oh well. How about we cast off this notion that men are born in such a way that they simply cannot behave responsibly when it comes to sex; it's silly. Once we impose social and professional consequences for this type of behavior, I'm pretty sure men will--somehow--find a way to control these impulses.
@Crusader Rabbit Adult people of all stripes and levels of sexual aggressiveness must learn to moderate their behavior in situations where society requires it. We, all of us, even those of us who are aggressive, do it all the time. And when we lose our cool--take road rage for instance--there are, in fact, consequences. It is not psychologically sophisticated to insist that "human male sexuality" is somehow inherently uncontrollable and therefore should get some kind of pass when it is uncontrolled. In fact, it is this pitifully low standard that has allowed so much immature and abusive behavior to go on unchecked over the decades, reinforcing the idea that lads and their oh-so-aggressive and uncontrollable urges are simply That Way, oh well. How about we cast off this notion that men are born in such a way that they simply cannot behave responsibly when it comes to sex; it's silly. Once we impose social and professional consequences for this type of behavior, I'm pretty sure men will--somehow--find a way to control these impulses.
1
I agreed with Bill Maher.. Al Franken's boorish behavior was just that, and nothing compared to the Orange GropenFuehrer's.
We need Al back in politics, for the reasons Maher gave. If, for some reason, Kirsten Gillibrand seeks national office, I'll vote against her (even if that means voting for Trump).. I'll never forgive her for railroading Al out of the Senate..
And yes, it was okay to interrupt Bill Maher. He needs it from time to time.
8
Dislike Gillibrand. But voting for Trump?
2
@Ann Curry
If Gillibrand runs for national office, maybe she can apologize to Al Franken and let us all get over it.
How about Gillibrand and Franken in 2020?
Note to men: If your instinct is to stand up against "Mob Justice" before standing up against "Mob Abuse" - the dehumanizing traumatizing ubiquitous sexual predation of all women by a critical mass of men enabled by the majority of other men's silence -- you are part of the problem, not the solution.
7
As others have pointed out, for these men trying to 'make a comeback' it continues to be about what they need or the treatment to which they have been subjected. Really? What about their actions?
To me this comes back to something Stephen Covey said: 'you can't talk yourself out of a problem you've behaved your way into'
They need to begin building trust, not demanding it. Listening first and not just pretending to listen while waiting for their turn to speak. They need to hear how much their actions have affected someone else.
Actions have consequences.
6
I watched the Real Time episode and mostly cringed. What I was waiting for Maher to say (and am still waiting to hear from anyone) is to recommend that when faced with a wandering hand, especially in a public setting, is for the woman to haul off and belt the guy or to make a public scene right there and then. This won't solve all the issues of abuse, but it could start a cultural moment where women are taught to own their power as physically as a man would be expected to.
5
@Annette Bourne
I'm not sure hauling off and belting the offender is necessarily a good idea -- some men will respond with violence, while others (shrewder but no less dangerous) will accuse the woman of assault. Everyone may have seen her hit him, but did they see him touch her? I like the idea a friend who traveled in Japan suggested (in Japan, groping is commonplace on trains especially). She would grab the offending hand and raise it in the air, and say loudly "Dare no te desu ka?" ("Whose hand is this?"). If the groping is public, shaming the offender is appropriate, but not getting physical in a way that might invite retaliation.
4
Well said. I've struggled to thread this needle, too. The writer does a good job of re-stating this complicated problem from a slightly new angle without discounting the feelings of those who have been harassed and/or assaulted.
6
One valuable thing to come out of this is, no one is indispensable. The disappearance of all these supposedly necessary males -- Rose, Moonves, etc. has barely left a ripple. The world goes on. Now maybe there can be more women in positions of power.
36
Clearly women have attained more power in our society and are wielding influence. They're no longer willing to remain silence in the face of male abuse. And that is driving men especially accused men to complain about their loss of position and power. Maybe we need a Truth and Reconciliation council for men to come forward and confront the attitudes and behavior that resulted in negative consequences. I'd love to hear them.
12
@maya I'm not so sure it's that women have attained power, than it is that social media now rules. Political correctness, public shaming, the loudest voices with the most resolve, the most Followers, etc. celebrities and companies fearful of being (negatively) aligned with someone who's now considered 'toxic', etc. I think all of that combined, explains the 'success' of the MeToo movement.
2
A very good point Ms Goldberg however the problem here is that we are perhaps asking the impossible: the person who sexually harasses or oversteps sexual boundaries is probably not the type of person that would give much thought to the effect his or her actions have on their victim. They are simply too self centered to begin with so when they land into trouble they mostly feel bad for themselves. As the fable goes, a scorpion can’t change its nature. One can only hope that a few of them do get shaken up, indulge in some badly needed self reflection, then not only change their behavior but also feel sincere remorse toward their victims. I won’t be holding my breath though.
168
@M. M. L. - This is exactly right.
If you think Bill Maher is the arbiter of anything other than his own often skewed perspective you require renewed self examination. Have you forgotten he is a comedian who recently blamed Palestinians demonstrators assassinated by Israeli snipers on the Palestinians? Perhaps you can give us a column on that.
Trweeden, Franken's main accuser a sexual harasser and assaulter on video should be the next Michelle Goldberg column topic, after she Google's Tweeden.
Michelle Goldberg, we can't help but notice that you have recently appeared twice, or is it three times on Maher's show where just about everyone gets skewered one way or another. Calling him out mid routine is neither helpful or meaningful. He pretty much has angered everyone at one time or another.
And as usual the women own nothing, men bad, women good. Both sexes are going to have to achieve considerable evolution before matters really improve.
As aside I'd like Michelle Goldberg's comment on the recent National car rental add where a women flings herself on a male and kisses him.
To fair minded intelligent observers the #MeToo movement is strikingly lacking in personal accountability. Be it the fact that women play major rolls in much of what is objected to and the blind application of harsh penalties. And lets not forget that women benefited from many of these situation for years if not decades before coming forward. Truth be told women are pretty much just as guilty as men in our daily lives.
3
@The Iconoclast
Sir,
Your comment is one of the most pointless, and excuse the expression, most idiotic I've read on this paper and considering the trumpsters that come out of the woodwork, that is something.
Nevertheless: your comment is a long-winded, not terribly clever, cowardly attack on the writer - a woman - who happens to have an opinion on a relevant, important topic that is important to women everywhere. You are blaming women for having the audacity to be upset that they are the targets of constant harrassment. In your view, they should just take it - like good little girls.
Comments like yours are disgusting. I hope you don't have daughters. In fact, I hope you never get withing 50 yards of an actual woman, ever.
Good day.
3
Why are we still trying wrestle even an ounce of contrition from these harassers? Why are they getting even one ounce of pity? They have been manipulating their audience since day one. They do not feel shame. They only lament that they were caught. And now they are just counting down the days until it can go back to the way it was (for them). Crocodile tears.
22
A man who truly respects women doesn't molest or harras them. /thread
28
I watched the Bill Maher show the author was on, and I thought to myself when she disagreed with Maher, “ that’s going to be in a column soon”. I guess I was right. But Ms. Goldberg missed the point Maher was making about Sen. Franken and also, at the same time, looked like someone who cannot identify what a comedian does to what ordinary men (and women) do to harass and objectify others . She had put on the movement a face of grim and brimstone, unable to tell the difference between gross harassment and juvenile jokes. Had she never seen Mr Franken perform? I’ve watched his career from early SNL skits to movies(Trading Places, with his late co star) to reading his books, (Rush Limbaugh is a Big Fat Idiot, ie). That’s his style of comedy!. If it offends you , that’s one thing, but I do not believe he is a compulsive harasser of women. She ignores the fact that his first accuser is a well known right wing screed, not that those women should be ignored when truly feel abused, but, come on, where is her critical thought processes here? Plus, I find it truly ironic that the senator who pushed the loudest for his removal was Kirsten Gillibrand, who before her incarnation as a women’s advocate was in upstate NY an advocate for the NRA and big tobacco. It was a power play, pure and simple, and Mr Franken was a gentleman during the whole ugly process and demurred to resign rather than fight( rightfully) the charges . Learn to tell what is joking and what is not.
48
@Mary Nagle Gillibrand is a political warrior. We need them. What's important is whether they use their power for good or evil. She made the right call for the party in calling for Franken to resign. Had Franken fought on it would have been a whole spectacle. Guilty or innocent, he was spent politically. He barely got elected the first time, this would have been it. Better to start fresh. And in the meantime, he can serve as an example. Ideally men who behave this way should catch themselves and demonstrate being changed by years of good behavior on their own. However, when they are caught, they can still choose to serve as pin up villains or good role models of reform. So again, working together Gillibrand and Franken salvaged something good.
3
@Mary Nagle: Well said. I agree 100% with your comment. Thank you.
2
@Mary Nagle I consider myself a feminist and a Maher fan. Your words are spot on. I feel like I watched a different show than the author!
3
Thank you for giving anyone whom you are on a panel with license to interrupt you when they disagree with you even if the time is reserved for you.
5
@Observer of the Zeitgeist
Oh, I think you definitely the point of this article there, buddy. You are a genius.
(face-in-palm)
2
“I can only imagine how disorienting it must be to have the rules change on you so fast”. Really? There wasn’t a rule against sexually assaulting women at your workplace prior to last year? Or a rule against masturbating in front of women at work? Or groping women at work? Um, the “rules” have existed for at least my entire 25 year career, but predators ignored the rules with impunity.
50
Michelle Goldberg is far too charitable. I don't think we should feel bad for ANY man exposed for being a pig. Yes, I realize that it seems like the rules changed from one day to the next, but that's not true. It's NEVER been ok to grope and accost women. What father would ever say, "I don't mind if my daughter's boss feels her up as a condition of a promotion." All these years, those men who have been exposed knew they were acting like pigs.
41
It is a rather sad commentary on our world today that so many are putting emphasis on the idea that "the rules have changed."
Most of the young children I work with know that there is a deep joy and profound satisfaction in treating people (that's "people' - not just men and not just women) with kindness, respect, care, empathy, love and compassion.
of course, many grow up assuming those are rules for suckers.
In whatever way people may *want* to make excuses, we really do know, in our heart of hearts, what the appropriate rules are.
***************
Several thousand years ago, it was stated in a verse in the Katha Upanishad that the wise person chooses Shreya (the good) over Preya (the pleasant).
This was so obvious that it was not thought necessary to spend too much time elaborating on the reasons why the pleasant choice is not necessarily the best one.
An unusually wise commentator, responding to someone who asked how we can know what is the good vs what is the pleasant, said:
"If we really want to know, it's easy. Everyone knows how to treat someone with respect, with care, with kindness and love.
the fact is, when we make the wrong choice, it's because we really don't want to do the right thing. All the rules in the world won't make a difference if our deepest heart is not in the right place, and all the excuses in the world can't cover up the fact that, if we want to treat someone with respect and kindness, we know how to do so.
www.remember-to-breathe.org
19
Workplace bullies need to go next.
16
Come on, Michelle. The woman who accused Franken was/is a longtime Sean Hannity hack. The conservatives are laughing at you and others on the left for how effectively you've been played. (Gillibrand, especially, is a chamoole.) And the Republicans will keep cheering you on, because the left is so predictably vulnerable to this type of manipulation. They are currently giddy over how eagerly and easily the Dems bit on Keith Ellison's failed relationship. (How do your exes talk about you? Any juicy opinions they'd like to share? Let's put them in the newspaper. Bitter ex-partners must be believed. It's legit news that's fit to print.)
The #MeToo movement is all too often blind to both context and scale. A cat call whistle from a construction crew is equated to rape by a boss. It's not in the same league, and the punishment can't be the same. Exile for life is too much for boorish misogynist behavior, and not enough for violent sexual assault.
That's the point I've heard Maher make over and over and over again. Is having that conversation belittling Franken's accuser? Based on the facts, she SHOULD be taken on. Frankly, you should be using your platform if you think someone like Maher is less politically correct in the way he provokes this discussion than you would be.
But in the meantime, heckling a comedian during his act on his own TV show? What were you thinking?
31
Ugh. Haven't these sleazy guys caught on yet? Norm whoever-he- is just needs to shut up. And so does Bill Maher, funny but a misogynist in satire clothing.
If any of these dumbbells had to take the abuse, humiliation and hurt the we women have to face daily they'd "get" it. Idea! Let's do a reverse sexism day at work, on the streets, in the home. See how that feels to the entitled men in our culture and the foolish women who support them. #Me2onSteriods!
15
I have worked in media since the 80's and certainly back then, sexual harassment was standard operating procedure (I'm not talking about rape, exposing oneself or demanding oral sex), I'm talking about embarrassing comments, unwanted propositions and above all gossip. Back then, we'd often roll our eyes and just carry on, but of course if you were the victim of serial groper you might move on, instead of expecting help from HR. That has changed, and the MeToo movement has made people sit up and listen. Unfortunately, I have also seen woman use and abuse their sexuality as well. I've seen reports to HR that were untrue, because someone rebuffed them. When I started out, a gossip campaign was started by a woman I worked with, saying that I was having an affair with my boss. This was hurtful to me, but above all to his wife, who was a colleague and friend. It did not damage my career, but made me a suspect. The woman who started that rumor is now pretty high up the food chain at CBS. She was notorious for being a good producer, but also for bad behavior. She favored some people and terrorized others. During tense moments during breaking news she was known to throw objects as well as tantrums. She was abusive and a big part of my decision to leave the business. MeToo has freed women to come forward, but women are also abusive. All situations are not the same, let's not destroy a career before a full hearing. And let's call out the women who are also abusive.
39
@thewriterstuff I endured three years of gossip and rumors that I was sleeping with this editor, that publisher, multiple men at once, blah blah blah, in order to further my career, or, I guess, just because I was "a slut." Most but not all of these rumors were perpetuated by men. They were all lies. I was also propositioned and grabbed by a so-called colleague and forcibly kissed on the mouth. Ultimately I couldn't take it any more and quit. My career and earnings have never recovered. I never went public because it wouldn't do any good, but I'll tell you, I don't have an ounce of sympathy for any harasser. They can do what I've had to do: adjust to a very reduced income and a life of not being able to do what I trained to do and what I'm good at.
317
Again the opinionist, as is her want, writes in generalities and vagueness, not detailing the so-called horrible consequences these #MeToo women have suffered. Referring to Franken's sins she asks why he doesn't feel "empathy for the woman who is discombobulated by suddenly feeling the hand of a man she admires on her backside". Discombobulated? (Does the writer really understand how silly and ironic the use of this comedic term is in the context of the alleged Franken "sin"?) Empathy? Really? Does the writer really know what transpired before and after this so-called victim's career altering backside event.
I'm not saying we should condone backside slapping or any other sexual misadventure, peccadillo or otherwise. What I am saying is that not knowing the truth of what actually happened before, during and after the #metoo event and not detailing the consequences, if any, to the so-called victim, is truly the problem here and the major issue concerning the #metoo movement.
It is the public shaming of so called offenders who, for the most part, are never given the opportunity of a proper defense at trial. They are shamed, humiliated and destroyed in their personal and business lives simply based upon public allegations and in most cases not even by criminal complaints.
I thought we live in a society that doesn't abide public allegations of misconduct, sexual or otherwise, without proof shown at a trial before peers. Apparently the writer is of a different belief.
16
John Hockenberry appears to believe that he is worthy of empathy and sympathy while the women he propositioned or bullied are not. An honest acknowledgement that what he did was wrong, even if it was accepted by colleagues (as Moonves's abuses were) "until it wasn't," followed by a heartfelt apology for actions, in which he acknowledges their impact on this victims, might have made his detailed description of his personal humiliation and that his children endured (because of HIS behavior, not that of his victims) more credible.
Lacking that, I have to ask how many boards do men like John Hockenberry have to be hit in the head with before they "get" that this behavior has always been awful and unacceptable, and that the only thing that has changed is that this fact is now publicly acknowledge by men in positions of power.
10
''I can only imagine how disorienting it must be to have the rules change on you so fast...'' - When did the rules change in the first place ? I don't think they did.
It was ALWAYS unacceptable to sexually assault or take liberties with anyone - especially underlings on the job.
It was ALWAYS unacceptable to sexually harass ( or just plain harass) anyone - again for anyone on the job.
The laws have always been on the books, except that now they are being applied correctly and with blinders on (scales of justice and all that) to whomever errs.
A good thing.
6
I am a man who has been unfairly accused of rape. My accuser even admitted to me she fabricated the accusation. She turned an instance of a refused kiss - the kiss did not even happen - into an accusation of full blown rape. She was angry with me over rejecting her earlier romantic overtures toward me. This was her way of exacting revenge. She made this accusation at a party in college over 20 years ago, in front of about 15 other people, including my friends. I have been haunted by this for over two decades, and the episode still causes the occasional panic attack. I believe in women's rights, including their right to not be sexually harassed. But we are in a dangerous climate when all someone has to do to ruin someone's reputation is to make an accusation, even a bogus one.
19
@Jess I’m very sorry for the pain you’ve been forced to endure. You’re the victim of what should be considered a crime and you are not alone. You’re right to remind us of the dark side of the metoo movement.
2
@Andrew
This has nothing to do with the metoo movement. It is one terrible person doing a terrible thing. The idea that if one woman does one thing once any thing women do to defend themselves must be tainted is the height of sexism. It is as if women felt that the men who have recently accused women of harassment had to just take it because so many men rape.
@NSH Unfortunately false accusations do have something to do with #metoo. Many of the accusations are obviously true, but some are exaggerated for malign purposes and still others are downright false.
Sadly, this is human nature and the mood of the mob right now means any man accused is guilty in eyes of the majority (or is it really just the vocal minority?)
The notion we should suspend all moderation, critical thinking, skepticism and the need for evidence, and simply “believe women” empowers people with malicious intent.
False accusations are heinous wrongs. I challenge you to dispute that statement.
Best regards.
1
" I sorely miss his voice in the Senate."
And THAT is but one of the consequences when you turn yourselves over to Mob Rule & Group think.
8
The person I will never forgive is Kristen Hildebrand for forcing Al Franken out of his seat. Franken was the only senator willing to challenge Jeff Sessions’ lies and mendacity, and he was booted out. Even if she runs for president I will not vote for her.
21
''I can only imagine how disorienting it must be to have the rules change on you so fast...'' - When did the rules change in the first place ? I don't think they did.
It was ALWAYS unacceptable to sexually assault or take liberties with anyone - especially underlings on the job.
It was ALWAYS unacceptable to sexually harass ( or just plain harass) anyone - again for anyone on the job.
The laws have always been on the books, except that now they are being applied correctly and with blinders on (scales of justice and all that) to whomever errs.
A good thing.
13
Michelle, As you say, it was Bill Maher's "closing monologue". Mono meaning one, closing meaning closing. You have your column in which to dissent, and you should have remained quiet at that time. Would it be OK if Bill Maher inserted a paragraph into your column, just before press time? And what was it again that Al Franken did that was sufficient reason for him to be thrown off the cliff?
25
Many men want to be about to humiliate, exploit, assault, grope, and demean women. They want to do this without consequence. When there are consequences they feel victimized. Women are failing to protect them from their own behaviors by speaking up--how unfair!
Dudes: Time's up.
8
''I can only imagine how disorienting it must be to have the rules change on you so fast...'' - When did the rules change in the first place ? I don't think they did.
It was ALWAYS unacceptable to sexually assault or take liberties with anyone - especially underlings on the job.
It was ALWAYS unacceptable to sexually harass ( or just plain harass) anyone - again for anyone on the job.
The laws have always been on the books, except that now they are being applied correctly and with blinders on (scales of justice and all that) to whomever errs.
A good thing.
2
Good points made, Maureen ! Apologies should come first, no matter what the offense or how culturally-ingrained some of these quasi-acceptable behaviors once were. But as we review and reflect upon these behavioral encounters they come across to me as "parent vs child", with the women often having to shoulder the burden of educating the "spoilt little boy" (except perhaps in the Asia Argento embroligio ).
1
“Only one of my accusers reached out or responded to my heartfelt queries,” he writes. (Why would they?)"
I wonder about "Why would they?"; how do people eventually "move on", or don't they? Do they just grind their teeth for the rest of their lives?
2
I know so many wonderful men, men who would never consider patting a woman’s behind or saying sexually suggestive things no matter what the situation. They don’t even strike me as being scared of women; they just seem respectful. When I contrast the way these men interact with women, and people in general, with the way some of the men called out by the Me Too movement have acted, I feel even more disgust for the way the abusers (and others like Bill Maher) try to dismiss their disrespectful and abusive actions. To be genuinely sorry for the pain you have caused implies a willingness to learn from past mistakes. But this self righteous anger over being caught smacks of continuing ignorance and arrogance. I don’t feel sorry for them. I feel too much respect for men to accept that “boys will be boys” stuff.
8
I thought Franken got way too much punishment for his crimes. He was a jokester, like many men he is touchy-feely, though not harmful; and the women in many cases who complained were in public and could easily have spoken up at the time.
There's a vast difference between what Franken did and what powerful men do to women in private, men who control women's careers and have the power to destroy our lives, limit our futures and demand sexual favors. There is a HUGE difference between a man who squeezes a waist in public and a man who rapes somebody and we need to see this and stop punishing everybody, destroying careers, as if a squeeze in public equals a rape!
Women who are safe, in public, whose lives are not in any way threatened, just speak up if somebody is annoying you.
Don't wait for ten years then drop the hammer. That doesn't help matters.
6
@Sophia It doesn't matter when it happened, but it matters what has happened since. If what we all want is for misbehaving men to correct their behavior before being caught, shouldn't they get some credit for it?
I notice a lot of comments about how Bill Maher was "dismissive" of Ms Goldberg during a part of the show where Maher alone has the floor. And, that this was sexist.
I've been watching TV most of my 66-plus years. I've seen men dismissive of women, women dismissive of men, men dismissive of men and women dismissive of women.
Watching Maher regularly, I've listened as his audience applauds liberals - my leaning - on a dime and disparages conservatives equally quickly.
Want to see something funny? Listen to the hoots and hollers received by Ann Coulter - whose views I loathe - in 2015 when she predicted our 45th president would be a guy named Trump.
And much as I admire Maher, I'm still waiting for him and Michael Moore to literally beg forgiveness for helping foist 43 on us by telling their acolytes in 2000 that there was no difference between Republicans and Democrats, so vote Nader, as we were told.
1
It is evident in all of this that those men caught by the #MeToo reckoning simply do not recognize their actions as wrong. If they start from that premise, then of course they don't ask forgiveness or have compassion for the women, and of course they simply demand immediate absolution. It is further evidence that they never thought what they were doing was inherently wrong. This is reinforced by the likes of Maher who only pays lip service to the "wrongs" and then belittles the victims as being overreacting - evidence he doesn't really think it's all that "wrong" that it warrants punitive measures. Such is the privilege of men. Especially of white men. God forbid they be held accountable for their misdeeds.
3
That’s why they were able to harass women in the first place— a profound inability to feel empathy.
10
Former criminals get second chances. But they serve their time. What is the appropriate amount of time served for such offenders who've been exiled or unemployed because of their bad behaviors? I think it's appropriate for them to prove to society that they've rehabilitated themselves by spending time with a counselor or group therapy situation wherein they get to understand what they did was wrong. If an employer forces an office jerk to attend anger management classes, something similar should be offered for the #metoo offender. Then move forward, learn from it and do good with your life. If that's not happening, no amount of time is going to fix what's wrong with the offender, and no opportunity for coming out of exile should be offered.
2
Michelle,
Great, thought provoking column. The Maher monologue was bone headed, as was his curt comments to you. I’m glad you used it as an example of how & when men totally miss the point. It also underscores the objectification, entitlement & lack of respect is still prevalent, even among progressive thinkers we admire. Bravo
3
I tended to believe Anita Hill rather than Justice Thomas. But, under the #MeToo doctrine, he should be fired even if Ms Hill just "felt uncomfortable."
Just as with the President, who can do that?
There's a special place in he!! for men who physically/sexually abuse women and others. I have actually said to other men be careful how you treat them because you may be reincarnated as a woman. Karma happens.
2
I'm a 45 year old white dude, and the rules haven't changed ONCE during my lifetime. In 1981, I understood every single joke in the movie "9 to 5", and I wasn't even ten years old. The rules may have changed in terms of other groups, (the LBGTQ movement springs to mind,) but workplace sexual harassment? C'mon- those rules have been crystal clear. While it's true that many men have grown accustomed to getting away with harassment thanks to an imbalance of power, the idea that these guys didn't understand what they were doing was wrong is nonsense. Ms Goldberg writes that these men might "find it easier to resurrect their careers if it seemed like they’d reflected on why women are so furious in the first place." From where I'm sitting, that fury stems directly from the serial liar, adulterer and sexual abuser who is currently occupying the White House, a "man" who has endured not as much as a mild rebuke from the utterly complicit Republican Party he leads. Until our culture values the humanity and workplace safety of 51% of our citizens at least as much as they value another tax cut for billionaires or a Heritage Foundation approved Supreme Court Justice, I think women will stay furious. And they have every right to be.
639
It takes a tremendous amount of courage (or at least chutzpah) for a paraplegic man to proposition an able bodied woman. It's hard to see how a man in a wheelchair can truly create a "hostile workplace." Show some compassion for the handicapped. All these women have to do is say "no" and walk away. It's not like he's going to run after them.
3
@joe
You're kidding, right? So we should give him a pass for boorish, abusive, and maybe illegal behavior because of a physical disability?
You can't see how the host of a popular show could somehow be powerful enough to sexually harass and bully colleagues, "creating a hostile work environment"?
And you think that disability gives him a pass to proposition his colleagues in the workplace? That it's courageous for him to do so? Women who are there to do a job, who might depend on that job to make a living and to establish and continue their careers?
You may want to give the situation a little more thought.
1
If just one of these self-centered male "victims" is led to deeper thought about the women they have frightened or shamed, you have done your job, Michelle. Bravo to you from a woman who has experienced this humiliation, hurt, and brakes put on a career. And thank you for speaking back to snarky Bill Maher, who hasn't got a clue. Walk a mile in our high heels, Bill.
2
In the hope of making a tiny, infinitesimally small dent in our repugnant culture of male disrespect for females, here's a note for all the men reading these comments:
--If you have a son, teach him that females are the creators of life, that they are to be revered, adored, respected.
--Demonstrate your respect for women by treating your wife the way you would want to be treated. Do not raise your voice to her, regardless of provocation.
--Teach your son that a woman's body is sacred, that touching a woman is an act of intimacy, to be shared only with a woman that he loves and who loves him.
--Teach him that women are human beings with feelings, not inanimate objects.
--If you have a daughter, tell her every single day that she is the most beautiful girl in the world and that she can do anything she wants with her life.
--Tell your daughter that her value in the world is her very existence, that she can and will grow up to do anything she sets her mind to.
I spoke these words to both my son and daughter as they were growing up, and I practiced what I preached. I am very, very proud of the way my children have grown up and are functioning as young adults.
5
Sexual harassment is all about power. So is racism. So is religious discrimination. So is class discrimination. It's about the power to impose your wants, your needs and your desires on others for no reason other than you're in power. Discrimination is reflected in differences in pay for the same work, in restricting access to education and high paying jobs, and in physical intimidation - threats of violence, sexual assault, and on. In general over the past generations white men have enjoyed power over women, minorities, people of other religions and on. And the dispossessed men in turn may use their power over vulnerable women. It is no wonder that men feel outraged, hurt or sad, or unbelieving when their exercise of power is challenged. When equal opportunity and respect is demanded by victims it behooves all of us to support them. And the men who now claim to be victims get little sympathy from those they have victimized until they prove that they understand what they have done and commit to making amends. Not likely to happen with many of them, for them their punishment is well deserved.
3
One reason men who do stuff like that (bully, threaten, verbally and physically accost, etc) in the first place is because they have either no, or very little, ability to empathize with the recipients of their behavioral transgressions. Of course they are not going to feel as bad, or worse, for the victims. It's not in their nature to do that.
4
@RH
I think this puts it too much down to "nature" and not enough down to "choice"
I haven't seen many cases of these abusers being accused of abusing their bosses, or the chairperson /director where they work. They don't seem to abuse high-value clients, or other people their livelihoods depend upon. You would think if it were just a lack of empathy and they didn't realize how damaging their actions were, or didn't care, they wouldn't limit their abuse only to people with limited ability to push back.
And Hockenberry, for one, seems to be able to express a great deal of empathy for his children, and other abusers have expressed empathy for their wives, their colleagues they've left in the lurch.
No, they are choosing to disregard the pain and anguish they have caused their victims.
Just as they chose to disrespect their victims, betray the trust of their organizations, and in some cases break the law, through their actions in the first place.
2
For all the men who have spent a lifetime respecting women and would never dream of doing anything inappropriate, no those who do, should not be forgiven.
1
It's unfortunate that Judge Kavanaugh is caught up in this eleventh hour anonymous accusation about something that may have happened when he was in high school. If Senator Feinstein feels so strongly about remote sexual matters, she should lay down the law and propose a statute that would exclude from federal office, including judicial office, and federal employment of every kind any person who has ever committed an act of sexual harassment or molestation. She could give it a catchy title, such as the SHAME or SHAME Forever Act. Under the statute, "sexual harassment" and "molestation" can be very broadly defined, preferably in terms that take in the victim's feelings and point of view. The states could enact their own versions of SHAME. Then we wouldn't have to worry about things like remorse, making amends, and redemption.
2
I saw you on Bill Maher and had the same reaction. Right on editorial, I agree with you whole heartedly. I forwarded it to my daughter. Thank you.
10
This is a good article with valid points that I think that we should take points away from, but I'm disappointed that this isn't an article about men who've been sexually harassed and abused, by men or women. I feel a bit disappointed, but through no fault of Michelle Goldberg.
@Emma
Its obvious the NYTs can't tell the difference between news and opinion or speculation and pontification.
METOO men are guys like me, who were (in my case) molested for years by my aunt when I was a child. Men like Asia Argento's victim, like Avital Ronell's victim. I support METOO because it has made me more willing to speak up about my own experience.
That is one problem with the prevailing view of MeToo, apparently shared by Goldberg: that it is a women-only movement. That so many women have tried to de-legitimize male victims --as in the 2 cases I mention above--sadly reduces the moral authority of this very valuable movement. It is a movement, however, that needs to support male victims ( Ms Goldberg's definition of "MeToo men" doesn't even acknowledge that there are male victims of female attackers), and condemn female abusers.
Then there's Senator Gillibrand, who insisted Franken resign immediately, even while she was happy to share her campaign stage with an accused rapist.
6
The way the Al Franken accusations were handled has continued to bother me because of the way the democrats politicized the issue and allowed the MeToo movement to be coopted and weaponized. Kristen Gillibrand showed her true Machievellian chops when she jumped on the bandwagon to oust Franken from the senate without thorough examination of the accusations and the accusers. I'm sorry, but to blindly accept statements and use those same accusations to discredit and ruin a person's career to the detriment of us all is wrong. The source should be looked at and considered. I believe in this case especially, the MeToo movement was weaponized in order to remove one of the most effective and least corrupt members of the senate who was articulate and speaking out against the corruption and moral depravity that is epidemic in the White House now. He is not like Conyers who had a payout for a sexual harassment claim which in and of itself indicated an admission of guilt. Nor did he have a $84,000. payoff to an accuser paid with taxpayer money ala Blake Farenthold to indicate an admission of guilt. Haven't heard a work of Farenthold paying back that 84K which is a crime unto itself as far as I am concerned. Hey, I am willing to say that Franken should go if there was any proof or examination of the charges but there weren't. Sadly the dems moved against him and basically forced him to resign. And yes, it is worth looking into the accusers motivations.
7
So many valid points made about the age old issue of men's primal urges, social awkwardness, and civil discourse.
MeToo is overdue in most people's eyes, and men who haven't really thought about their actions should get, at least, verbally reprimanded. But that's not all men. And yes...there are nuances to this issue. Repressed women are finally discovering they have a voice. Many of them are justifiably letting off steam about the injustice that has been done and enjoying a freedom they didn't know they had. FINALLY. So... let's all intellectually evolve.
I was divorced by someone who was emotionally affected by this accepted 'right' that too many men only think with the wrong appendage. She was so scarred that she believed that's what all men are like. We're not. Some of us have a sense of decency, but get lumped into a stereotype. Some of us want to live in a way, as the Sting song says..."If you love somebody, set them free. If you want to hold onto your 'possessions', don't even think about me". And it works both ways.
Women have been wronged throughout history. Men need to intellectually deal with their primal urges. Women have already been dealing with that their whole lives. But castigating all men in general is wrong.
It's apparently going to take awhile to right that wrong.
Again... let's all intellectually evolve.
I guess that part of men's rehabilitation from having abused their station on unsuspecting women, is relatively simple and straightforward: apologize! And as if it weren't obvious already, it must be sincere. Am I missing something?
3
But isn't this just like an episode of Mad Men. television viewers loved that! the series was lauded for its depiction of the bad old days, when you could harass women, and drink at lunch. the bad old days are here and now.
This is a very fair criticism of the current place we are in this fluctuating movement. Men for the most part aren't sure where this conversation leads, so falling to old patterns comes easy. I'm betting we'll see more of "are we done yet", unless we can evolve the discussion. I think the challenge to women is to let this become a two way dialogue... that means listening to the challenges, assumptions and expectations that men face when interacting with women in our society.
For example, mustering the courage to ask a woman on a date was tough 20 years ago when I was last doing so … but at least a blow to the ego and maybe some light mockery was the worst likely outcome. Today if that interaction goes badly the consequences can be much worse. Nerve wracking stuff.
Or Chris Rock's grandmother's observation "a broke man is like a broken hand, not good for much". Funny, because its true.
To move forward, I think we need a dialogue, where women can admit that not all the tension, animosity and harm that happens between genders in unidirectional. You'll find more openness in men.
2
@Simon I love where your insights could go, in the right context and framing. That is, if I’m hearing women correctly, they’re saying that patriarchy has real-life negative consequences for them. If we as men could aim our intellectual and emotional discomfort not back at women, but at patriarchy itself, then this conversation becomes rooted in a common goal. Recognizing that patriarchy harms men, too (which I think may be an insight you’re getting at, if I’m not misreading what you’re saying?), has the potential to really transform this conversation. But it’s essential that we as men don’t go for the low-hanging fruit, shooting the messenger (women) and ultimately reinforcing the cancer that drives this entire cycle.
Thank you Michelle. I saw the Bill Mehr segment as well and agree with you. Men are full of 'whoa is me' when called out, but rarely reflective of how their wrong impacted those they victimized.
3
Al Franken engaged in boorish, childish sexual antics with a couple of women, not rape or "sexual assault." He deserved to be called out and embarrassed for it. It was correct to demand an apology and a promise to do better from him. Instead, #MeToo handed him a career death sentence.
Garrison Keillor’s crime against humanity was to have been flirty with three women - at social events stretching over a period of 20 years - who would have preferred not to have received such attention. His career was not only destroyed, but every product he created for Minneapolis Public Radio has been stripped of his name, Soviet-style.
And you wonder why the men accused of these behaviors don’t fall on their sword begging forgiveness from the #MeToo tribunal, why many of them are being seen as greater victims than the women who accuse them?
#MeToo is not interested in justice. Its only interest is vengeance.
18
From Beatrice to Kryptonite--The tragedy of the post-modern world.
Michelle Goldberg is a treasure. The New York Times is lucky to have her.
5
Count me among those that are angry that Al Franken resigned. There is a world of difference between the disgusting and criminal behavior of people like Weinstein and the clumsy antics of Al Franken and myriad other men like him. And while I used to watch Kirsten Gillebrandt as an up and coming leader, I think she made a serious mistake forcing a really good voice for liberal causes out of the senate when we need such voices desperately. I now question her judgement and would not be inclined to support her.
While #MeToo is way overdue, do we really want to go to a place where all men are now suspect because a relationship didn’t work out where they then having to defend themselves against charges of emotional abuse? (Think Ellison.) I fear that the whole movement will be harmed by taking it too far.
You know what makes me way more angry than Al Franken’s sophomoric photo episode? The way some male television hosts cut off their female colleagues mid-thought. I see it all the time and it helps perpetuate the attitudes that put a Trump in office over a qualified female candidate. Will one of Chris Matthews producers please tally the number of times he cuts off a female compared to a male? He is not the only one, but he is perhaps the most egregious.
Thanks Ms. Goldberg for making us think.
3
Humans are very eager to punish transgressions from others, but feel more sympathy the more they have some personal connection to the transgressor.
I have some experience in both crafting and implementing punishment as a retired teacher and school administrator. I learned early that it’s easy to make rules, but that the rules you create are meaningless if you don’t also think through a thoughtful, and fair, punishment regime. As the expression goes, the devil is in the details.
Clear lines are easy to delineate, in theory, ahead of time, but are often much less clear when implemented against real people in real life.
Time, and many redos, are what is needed precisely because humans, and by extension human systems, are extraordinarily complex.
We are social creatures, evolutionary successes specifically because we have learned to live in communities. Those communities have become orders of magnitude more complex as our species has succeeded, and our need for complex rules governing punishment has grown exponentially as well.
It should come as no surprise, then, that our social structures may advance with fits and starts as we sort out how we adapt to what have been sudden, though necessary, changes.
3
Problem is, as we have seen (Asia Argento and numerous female teachers across the country), it's not about gender, it's about power. As long as the power dynamic of Boss/Employee (or teacher/student) exists there will be issues especially with forced arbitration and laws that allow the dynamic to continue.
Being male I can speak form personal experience. I have suffered sexual harassment twice. Both from women. I got fired my boss found out I had a girl friend and wouldn't sleep with her. The second one I was saved by a corporate work environment.
3
I like Al Franken and think he was a very, very good senator. Leaving aside judgement about the "severity" of what he did impropperly to those women, the idea that he should get back into electoral politics is moronic. I am convinced that he resigned when he did to give the progressive wing of the Democratic party a better chance of holding that seat, and I appreciated that. Right or wrong it is a fact that a not miniscule portion of the progressive electorate would not have and will not vote for him. Bill Maher's political instincts are often out of line with reality and this is a prime example.
9
Natural consequences. No sympathy.
It's not that hard to be a decent respectful human being.
220
Agreed. There seems to be an underlying assumption that there are some sort of extraordinary efforts being required of men to not grope or otherwise transgress towards their female colleagues. It's pretty simple and has a lot to do with manners:
1) Hands off:Don't grab anyone's privates or kiss them without permission and mutual interest.
2) Keep your privates private: Don't expose your naked body to anyone you work with unless you are already in a consensual relationship.
3) Be a gentleman: You can ask someone out, but have the manners and humility to be polite and accept that they may not be interested or comfortable.
4) Don't muddy your own swimming pool: Don't date anyone you might have to fire or promote.
Now really, is that so hard? I worked and dated colleagues for years and never got sideways with anyone just following those basic rules. All the hand wringing for the men seems like defense of an outrageous sense of entitlement at least and of sadistic pleasure in exerting power at worst.
4
I watched you on Maher, Michelle, and I too thought his response to your objection was rude (and, given the fixed format of the show) awkward, to say the least.
HOWEVER, the one thing I would add that Maher didn't mention was due process, especially in the Franken case. It seems to me Franken was caught up in a wave of furious judgement, righteous or not, that overrode his right to that due process. I understand his decision to just withdraw from the spotlight, rather than have to do public battle with women he agreed with on most points, but I sorely miss his voice in the Senate.
17
I know some women who would be OK with and even enjoy what Al Franken did, especially if it was actually someone they were comfortable with. But that does not mean that all women will or should be OK. In the workplace, people with different personalities are going to welcome or tolerate different things, and there is real potential for the boss touching someone and thereby making someone else more uncomfortable than the person being touched. The sexual harassment training that I have had has always emphasized communication, which is what Bill Maher seems to have missed by invalidating concerns that are very real to others. Maybe he knows a few women with whom he can push the envelope somewhat, but that doesn't mean that he can do the same with everyone.
1
I watched you on the Bill Maher program and appreciate your interruption. As we know, Franken was front page when the photo of Leeann Tweeden was offered as evidence of sexual assault. In fact, “sexual harassment expert” Debra Katz claimed that “The photo clearly shows that Franken groped, fondled, grabbed, touched the breasts of a sleeping woman,” Katz said. “And, yes, in a clear-cut instance like this, there is no reason to say 'alleged.' He admitted the behavior and acknowledged that it was inappropriate.” Franken admitted to the photo and apologized for it. He did not admit that he “groped, fondled, grabbed, touched, the breasts”. Unlike other women who were harmed, Ms.Tweeden, capitalized on photos of her breasts in multiple venues, gained enough notoriety to appear in USO shows and in 2011 appeared in Playboy nude, so Franken’s photo has a different context. Finally, Tweeden is a FOX employee. Franken was railroaded out of the Senate for political expediency, to defeat Roy Moore and elect Doug Jones.
Maher’s crass manner should not prevent Al Franken from returning to politics. Franken deserves due process denied him.
Not mentioned is how Franni Bryson Franken feels or their two daughters. That we live among male supremacists and have a culture of abuse should not be used to disregard justice. Me Too demands justice, not mob revenge. Me Too can be manipulated for male supremacist goals. Maher is a clumsy goon who alerts us to self harm at times. FOX on the other hand
9
@Joseph Huben This may be tough for you to understand, but just because someone makes a living in a way you disapprove of - whether that is appearing in USO shows, as a Playboy nude, or being a FOX employee - does not mean their complaints are any less valid.
Most women would be horrified to be photographed, with out their permission, as they sleep. To have that photo be part of a sexual "joke" is humiliating and frightening.
3
A pat on the behind calls for a slap in the face. Instead feminists have decided to turn their movement into a vehicle for proscribing male behavior they don't like and now a pat on the behind calls for the destruction of your career and banishment from public life until the feminists who play judge, jury and executioner decide you can come back, and so far their verdict is never.
What's unfair!?
4
This article is ABSOLUTELY "spot-on." The toll on women, which is DEVASTATING!!!!!!!!!!!, will reside with the abused forever. Sexual abuse is permanently frozen in their memory. The abuser, on the other hand, just goes on his merry way. For some unexplained, absurd reason men can merely walk away, unfazed. What's over is over .... I guess. Do not focus on these "poor men". They CHOSE to do this. Never, ever forget this fact. Women, unite and do not allow men to "have their way with us" anymore. This horrific abuse must STOP!!!!!!!!!! Stop immediately !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
6
Thanks for Kirsten Gilebrand, Al Franken had to remove himself from office. That was a dumb move and one a New York voter like myself will never forget
13
Does Representative Christina Garcia feel any shame? Has she even been punished?
How about Asia Argento?
Yeah, I didn’t think it matters with women abusers.
2
I like Bill Maher and Michelle Goldberg and saw the episode in which she appeared.
I fully agree that Al Franken was shoved out unnecessarily along with Harvey Weinstein. Their egregious behaviors are not in the same category. The MeToo movement, in its rush to seek punishment for the bad boys and restitution for the aggrieved women, clubbed ALL men and ALL behaviors into one big pile. The net results is that Al Franken and Harvey Weinstein were meted out the same punishment.
But, Michelle Goldberg is absolutely right in that Bill Maher, who I mostly agree with, went over the top in questioning the women who felt they were harassed by Al Franken. He justified the touchy-feely part of a politicians job by using Joe Biden as an example. But that is no excuse.
So, the main question is whether or not these men now feel any remorse for their past behaviors and have at least a glimmer of an understanding of how the women they harassed must have felt. I hope that at least now these men understand how and where to keep their hands in the company of others, especially women.
6
Thank you Michelle for your "words" of wisdom
I watched you on Bill Maher...I was "taken aback" by his comment to you..How dare he???
Oh What a Tangled Web We Weave" and What a "Tangled world this is!!
I think it is beyond depressing, every day ,in every way..Some thing akin to "These Hurricanes"
Stay safe North Carolina!!
2
I totally agree that these men see themselves as victims. Those horrible women have ruined their lives and reputations! But not one of them had any thought about how their obnoxious behavior might affect their spouse/partner/children while they were going "at it". It's all about instant gratification of the ego and the sex.
8
The author writes:
"It’s fair to argue that the things Franken was accused of — pretending to molest a sleeping woman while posing for a photograph, grabbing other women’s butts — aren’t irredeemable sins, and that he shouldn’t be permanently banished from politics."
Would the author say the same thing about a Republican Senator? I doubt it.
Franken's behavior was repulsive. I could care less about his comedic pedigree. He is in no position to represent anyone or anything. And I say this as a life long supporter of the democratic party.
5
Yes but when career adulterer sexual aasaulter and harasser William Jefferson Clinton got a pass it led to his fellow adulterer sexual assaulter and harasser Donald John Trump, Sr. also getting a pass to occupy the Oval Office of our White House. After all Bill and Hillary Clinton were honored guests at the nuptials of Donald and Melania Trump.
The idea that actors, comedians, entertainers, journalists, moguls, polticians, preachers and sports figures constitute some noble humble humane empathetic caste free of malign misogyny and hypocrisy is absurd and indefensible.
Sexual assault is a crime. Obstruction of justice and perjury regarding sexual assault is a crime. Sexual harassment is illegal. Being unemployed and ostracized is getting off pretty lighf, I never heard of nor missed this guy. Wallowing in self-pity is pretty pathetic.
3
@Blackmamba
Clinton got a pass? He was impeached for it, the first impeachment in 130 yrs! Is that not enough?
Adultery, harassment, and assault are three different activities, so please don't mix them up.
8
I want to say to you Michelle that you are the only NY Times opinion columnist that I enjoy reading, who often reflects the realities of the world I see. This column summed up why I don't feel sorry for so men who have sexually assaulted, bullied, belittled, and harassed their female victims and coworkers.
4
" [S]he had it coming."
"We all have it coming."
(from " Unforgiven ")
There, now. You feel better yet?
Thank you for this. Bill Maher always set off my misogynist radar. His monologue was embarrassing.
8
@spleary
I agree...thank you to Michelle Goldberg for this good article. I do think so many men, especially those in power, have trouble understanding themselves.It sometimes doesn't matter if they really do have any power ...they seem to think they do. They want you to understand them, but can't seem to understand who THEY are to others. My take also is that so many men are really not very happy people. When I read the New Yorker article about Les Moonves, it left me thinking that with all he has positively accomplished, he is still one unhappy and miserable guy. Men need to take more time examining themselves, and understand who they are.
7
I think almost all of the men who have suffered consequences because of their predatory behavior knew it was wrong when they did it. What man doesn't understand that it's not OK to grab a coworkers breast? They all understand. They thought the women would never have the nerve to complain. Or, if she does, the man claims she over reacted and tells her to get a sense of humor. I don't believe for a minute that men don't know where the line is. They do know--they just don't care about it. And, that's evident in their behavior after they're caught--nothing but self pity and pretend ignorance of what they did wrong, and blaming their victims for not getting the joke. Louis C. K. admitted masturbating in front of many women, didn't really seem to think there was anything wrong with that, but went into semi-seclusion anyway, and has now decided he's ready to come back. And, judging from the standing ovation he got at his surprise comedy club appearance, audiences want him back. So, that's all tidy and done. Until he starts doing it again, which he will, since he's done nothing to accept responsibility and understand why the women felt disgusted, shocked, demeaned and used. I'll never believe that Louis did not know that masturbating in front of women was wrong. All men know that. He did it anyway, because his ego, his arrogance and his contempt for women made him believe his desire came before her right to be left alone. Sympathy for him? Not a chance.
14
Ever read Mark Twain's "Whittier's Birthday Speech"?
Mark Twain--in the presence of various notable authors--got up to make a speech. An amusing fantasy about some scruffy imposters MASQUERADING as these authors and imposing themselves on a bewildered prospector.
AND IT BOMBED! SAKES, HOW IT BOMBED!
And in the months that followed, Twain went through agonies of shame--self-reproach--mortification. Eventually, he got over it.
Eventually. It took a long time.
Is not SHAME worse than GUILT?
Guilt is a solitary horror. My conscience--that still small voice--bringing to my appalled attention. . . .
. .some stupid or wicked things I did fifty years back.
But SHAME!
Fingers pointed at me as I shuffle down the street. My leering visage plastered on magazine covers all across the USA. My words, my doings dissected (in tones of horror) by pundits in every TV station in the land.
Must be horrible!
But Ms. Goldberg. . ..
. .you are absolutely ON THE MONEY.
Shame and guilt--in real life-are inextricably intertwined. You get one--you get the other.
ACKNOWLEDGE THE GUILT, MR. HOCKENBERRY.
Turn your eyes from your own quailing, outraged self. . .
. ..to the women you have wronged and insulted. . . ..
. .. and then--and only then. . .
. ..we'll talk about your eventual restoration. . ..
. .when kindly hands reach down--pluck you from the abyss of shame in which you find yourself plunged. . . ..
. . . .and not TILL then.
6
Suppose, Michelle, these men had been...
> Some of society’s least powerful, instead of its most powerful
> Black, not white
> Called out by (white) women for such bad acts because – though things may have been more consensual – they feared their husbands and partners...Sometimes embellishing – or fabricating – events
> Literally, not metaphorically, beaten and lynched - by husbands and partners
How would you then feel about them...
Today’s women and yesterday’s (white) men might categorically and crassly agree those beaten and lynched were unfortunate collateral damage in valiant and vigilant effort to keep society stable and safe...
As might a majority, for some time...
Now, back out of the crisis chaos of vigilantism and into the systemic serenity of our Justice system...
Where we hear upwards of 20% on death row been wrongfully convicted...
And recently seen what actually comprises the prosecutorial evidentiary ecosystem...
> Accusers already pleaded to perjury
> Hard evidence whimsically admitted – or not
> Diviners of what was in the heart of the defendant more so than what weapon in hand
> Juries as pop-up SCOTUSes
With that – guess upwards of 30% of those in prison, overall, have been wrongfully convicted...
And those comprising the system – from snitches to SCOTUS – might consider them unfortunate collateral damage...
Bad enough...
But when crowd-caused collateral damaging ripens into convenient targeting, I feel even worse for everybody...
2
It has been shocking and disheartening to see so many men -- liberal men -- line up in sympathy for the men "banished" for 9 months or so with zero consideration for the women whose careers were sidelined because of predatory behavior. It was also shocking and disheartening when I heard bill maher say to you "it's not your place." Yes, you interrupted him and you shouldn't have but I saw Martin Short interrupt Maher during New Rules and he didn't snap "it's not your place." (Those words sound an awful lot like "Shut up, you uppity woman.") Instead he said to Short "Hey, I'm working here" in a very jocular manner. Maher's a good example of the kind of liberal man who doesn't really feel sympathy, much less empathy, for women who receive predatory male behavior.
17
@cgtwet
The issue is that not all men whose careers and names have been ruined have engaged in "predatory behavior." Yes, some of them have, and they need to be severely punished.
Others have behaved poorly - some even very poorly - but this isn't "predatory." The punishment needs to fit the crime. But the #MeToo refuses to differentiate between the levels of offense, and continues to refuse any kind of due process.
5
Easy solution here: Keep all relationships at work--to include all forms of correspondence--with the opposite sex efficient Maoist Green.
3
I applaud the #MeToo movement because it includes naming names. The anonymous "rape culture" type comments, castigating all males as rapists, was abhorrent.
3
Can't we have a discussion about the difference between being a jerk and being a predator? Can't we acknowledge that there are degrees of bad behavior? I believe this age of zero-tolerance has turned us from considering circumstances, severity and appropriate consequences to "Off with their heads!"
I sometimes wonder what the Democrats who forced Al Franken to resign did after his remarks. Were they proud? Did they look around and say "See? See? We know what to do with these guys!" That somehow not giving someone a chance to be heard, maybe even investigated, is something to be celebrated.
Michelle, I saw you get your scolding on Real Time and figured you wouldn't be able to resist a column on it. You didn't disappoint.
7
Sure...you were a guest on Real Time during Maher’s speech but why assume that he somehow speaks for Al Franken and that his statements are somehow an indication of Franken’s level of remorse.
And BTW...now that we’ve torn down Robert E Lee statues all over the country, something endorse, when do we start renaming all those buildings named after one of the biggest sexual predators to ever occupy the White House...John Kennedy. Obviously a bridge too far.
@Woodson Dart We'd have to have fought another civil war to be in an era of renaming JFK's buildings. monuments, airports, schools, etc. Equating slavery with adultery is, indeed, a bridge too far.
4
Ms. Goldberg,
Bill Maher meant for you to be present for the "New Rules" segment that you reference. It was partially aimed at you. You were one of the first to call for Franken's head, the first to demand that "Franken's got to go". You were as wrongheaded then as you are now.
I don't always believe the women. Because sometimes the women lie. Leeann Tweedon is without credibility. The rest of Franken's accusers? Eight total. Four remain anonymous to this day and the absolute worst accused Franken of having a wandering hand or holding them too closely during photo ops. Photos that the woman requested. A couple of their husbands were standing six feet away taking the photo.
Maher called you out for falling for a right-wing hit job. For railroading a strident, liberal voice out of the Senate. The most able critic of the President that we had, but he had to go. Because you and yours had to have a head. Never mind whose.
44
@Julian Fernandez
He needed to go if Dems were going to have any credibility on this issue. I'm sorry you so don't get that but Michelle certainly did.
2
@Jenifer
How exactly does doing the work of your opponents lend Democrats credibility? How does destroying the career of someone like Franken without due process and because of obviously spurious charges from questionable sources lend Democrats credibility?
1
I feel bad for all of us. All things considered, we are looking like a sad sack lot right now.
5
I am a big fan of Real Time with Bill Maher and watched the show with Michelle Goldberg. I was disappointed in Bill's reaction to Michelle's comment/interruption. In my opinion, his response made him look like a jerk, and made Michelle's point.
10
I saw the Maher show last week and man did that look awkward. I know no one is supposed to mutter a peep during his monologue but he was kind of a snippy little thing with Michelle. And I agree, I'm so sick of being forced to consider men's feelings - without any consideration whatsoever of ours.
9
"without any consideration whatsoever of ours"
Really ? None ? EVER ... ? No One ?
Would that be those Evil, Dumb (usually flabby & Bald ) Louts who have been portrayed on every Ad /TV Show / Movie / Comic routine / Sitcom since they began ? You know the ones. The endless trail of men - bested, insulted and humiliated by the "Wifey", the Kids ,the neighbor, the family pet ? But oh hey, that's always okay isn't it ? To this day they are portrayed that way for a laugh & it's always okay. And always without any consideration whatsoever.
Eventually we'll get to hear from the greater tally of women who like - and make productive use of - the attention? I recall Catherine Deneuve's honest attempt to save us from our hypocrisy. My bet is for every jilted rose there were twenty four others who sold the box of cookies and skipped away happily clutching the wad of dough. In statistical terms we call that kind of percentage "a vast majority". Come to think of it - it initially was that way with someone else who never turned down movie roles over the moral outrage of her handiwork. Someone else turned him down and then won an Oscar... no massaging that buck trending fact. It's only now, what with fewer scripts in the pipeline and a shorter road to the rest home that these life lessons become grievances. Go bet five years from now after the Joan of Arc routine has come to it's pyre there will be wistful bitter wishing the next offered payment was not taken. It was a million bucks, right?
The tragedy of the situation is how the momentum won't be stopped by the slowly accumulating disinterest in this shrill echo chambered pretense of prudishness but by the ultimately revealed hypocrisy of the movement's most vocal proponents... as we are starting to see already on this slow boat to Asia.(!)
1
Thank you for this challenging, thought provoking piece. As someone who was publically shamed when I plead guilty to possession of illegal pornography years ago, this subject hits home. I behaved horribly. I was severely punished. I got the mental health help I so desperately needed and continue to heal and make amends and reparations. Though my behaviors were solitary (I never contacted nor made inappropriate contact with anyone), those in the images I saw were mostly certainly victims.
I present this background as way of explaining that I am caught, by my own doing, in the center of a lot what you are discussing. Because of public shaming, certain laws, and a very definite fervor (much of it quite appropriate), we run the risk of throwing a wide net over very different people with very disparate set of particular circumstances. Not all behaviors carry the same weight, and not all offenders have the same history of behavior.
Rather than focusing on the punitive, we could accomplish far more by just being decent. When we do wrong, we must loudly admit as much, then go about changing our behaviors, making amends, and doing all we can to be better human beings. It can boil down to simply being more kind, compassionate, patient and loving to all those in our daily lives.
This cuts both ways. Though it must begin with the offending party, my hope is that everyone else not leap to judgement and conclusions about who that person is, and what change they are capable of.
1
I used to enjoy lightly bawdy PG-13 banter with women and men at work and at post-work socializing. Even an occasional hug - bro hugs, the work version of an old-aunt-hug. Air-kisses were par of the office cocktail hour pleasantries. No more of that. No man can risk being perceived as a misogynist boor, like Bill Maher, Norm McDonald, Al Frankin, or Aziz Ansari. It will kill your professional reputation, possibly your whole career, or it could possibly hurt someone fragile sensibilities.
The only appropriate behavior men can around women is a dour sad mix of Mike Pence, the Taliban, and humorless eunuchs.
#Metoo has gone way too far. The movement has turn agressively vindictive. Even a slight slip-up can expose a man to excoriation and embarrassment. Slight slip-ups, goodnight air-kisses, and bad dates are crushing careers.
The backlash will be additional limitations to women's professional access. Why would you let a woman in the room if a minor slip-up will de-rail your career? You don't.
97
@Brad Steele
You assume that women's professional access will be further limited as a result of #metoo because you assume that men will still hold that power. Imagine, if you will, that as a result of this movement women are the ones who control their own destinies, who control access to jobs, promotions, etc. That's what this is all about - that women are no longer limited by men having power over them. #TimesUp
7
@Brad Steele This is not difficult nor is it unreasonably limiting of your behavior than any other workplace standard: do not treat people inappropriately at work. If you are confused about what is inappropriate, go to your HR department and request clarification and then follow your employer's policies so that you may keep your job. It's telling that you bring up Mike Pence, someone who is so profoundly incompetent at managing his own behavior that he must instead sequester himself from women. Oh dear.
7
@Brad Steele This is not difficult nor is it unreasonably limiting of your behavior than any other workplace standard: do not treat people inappropriately at work. If you are confused about what is inappropriate, go to your HR department and request clarification and then follow your employer's policies so that you may keep your job. It's telling that you bring up Mike Pence, someone who is so profoundly incompetent at managing his own behavior that he must instead sequester himself from women. Oh dear.
2
During the Franken debacle, I remember when Goldberg wrote that even if he wasn't culpable, he should resign anyway, just to provide a good example--she intimated that it was a small price to pay.
Then, and continuously since, she tries to paint her one-note columns with a thin veneer of justice + mercy (her own, of course). It doesn't work. She's unwilling to analyze on a case-by-case basis, yet wants to be seen as reasonable.
I watched her during the Munk debates, a sophisticated and well-respected forum, in which that night's topic was politically correct speech. I thought she might rise to the occasion. But no. She didn't use logic, or even respond to the points made on the other side. No actual debate or thought, just warmed-over repetition and broad generalizations.
This is the first time I've read her column in months, again hoping for nuanced content. But alas, strike three.
6
I watched this episode live of Bill Maher last Friday night, that you speak about in this article. I AM SO GRATEFUL to see you write about it. When Bill Maher was talking about Al Franken, I felt appalled as a woman. When you tried to interrupt, it was wonderful to witness. I knew you were feeling what I was and at the time I thought you should write about what you were trying to push-back on at the moment on his show. THANK YOU FOR WRITING THIS. You speak for many of us women who felt the same way watching the show that night!
20
I just want to add that many younger people think that sexual harassment (which so often seems to be coupled with bullying), was once accepted and now, suddenly it isn't. It's just that it hit a tipping point with Harvey Weinstein. Punishment for bullying and harassment was far less severe and often overlooked, but it was not considered OK. So what's happening now is sort of exactly what was happening back in the day. The conversation is being ridiculed and diminished by men, who are the only ones being viewed as "victims." They are co-opting the conversation yet again, which is exactly what happened in the 70s with second wave feminism. Women were "complaining," "strident," "too sensitve."
Years ago I was an aspiring actress. I went to interview for a place in an acting class with a man who was a renowned teacher. One of the first things he asked me to do was to take off my pants and underwear and masturbate in front of him. I wouldn't. He told me I was frigid and was not in touch with my feelings. I interviewed for a job on a soap opera and was told I could get the part if I "went out" that evening with a client of the tv station. I was raped in the lobby of my apartment building and punched in the face so hard that it broke one of my teeth. My friends were outraged and told me to go to the police. I did. The police told me it was my fault for arriving home so late. This is what I feel is happening again. Old story. Blame the woman.
18
I think most would agree with the following principles, although it seems like anyone who attempts to address these issues with any sort of nuance is immediately shouted down:
1. Not all instances of sexual misconduct are equal and responses to the misconduct should fit the crime (or in most cases many crimes).
2. It is reasonable to ask whether the consequences of being outed in #MeToo were reasonable for a particular person given his or her conduct. For most of the individuals involved, it seems like the consequences were perhaps not great enough. In other cases it's less clear.
3. It is OK to recognize that, although harassment and assault are predominantly perpetrated by men, women, and especially, women in power are more than capable of doing the same to men or other women (Ronell, Argento, etc.).
4. Whatever standards you apply to the accused and accuser should be applied consistently regardless of the political affiliation, gender or sex of the person engaging in the misconduct.
5. The public sphere is not the best place to adjudicate blame or innocence and members of media, on the whole, are distinctly ill-equipped to do so.
It would be nice for a change to have a thoughtful discussion of some of these issues to see where areas of agreement and disagreement lie. I know that I shouldn't expect this from NY Times opinion columns but I hold out hope that one day we'll see more articles along those lines.
10
MeToo was fed by generations of unfettered Old Boys clubs. We must acknowledge that the MeeToo men's closest friends probably knew exactly what they were doing. Some of them were abusing women in similar fashion.
The Old Boys Club the oldest secret society in the world, and the most damning and dangerous to women.
18
I think that grabbing a woman's butt is grounds for losing your job and your professional identity.
13
@Edward
I am a man. I agree with you. But I'm thinking about your standard, and if that's the standard, then I've been sexually assaulted and harassed too. A woman once grabbed by genitals on a train as she exited. When I was volunteering at a hospital as I was preparing to apply to grad school, I was constantly being hit on by one of the physical therapy assistants. Everyone there saw what she was doing, and I could see them just kind of laughing at it. When I worked at a Starbucks, one female coworker used to hug me and would linger on the hug, once asking me "Do you date black girls?" I'm not going to pretend that I was traumatized by these events, but the acceptable standards of conduct need to extend to everybody.
Where are the Not Me people? You know, the people who have rejected unwanted advances without destroying careers. We can of course make a distinction between an inappropriate slap on the butt and rape. The former can be handled with a firm "keep your hands to yourself" and the latter with a phone call to the authorities.
There are people who seek to advance their careers by offering sexual favors and regrettably sometimes get ahead of more deserving colleagues.
There are bosses who use their position to get sexual favors,which should not be tolerated, but the time to act is when it happens not years later.
In the rush to jump on the Me Too train recognition should be offered to the many people who said Not Me and took appropriate action in a timely fashion avoiding years of pain and guilt.
@Marvin Raps
"keep your hands off" can lead to job loss and veiled or open retaliation to woman. The power dynamic and male ego demands in these situations are not being acknowledged. Of necessity, women and men tolerate work place abuse to maintain their employment. That is reality.
4
@Marvin Raps
Oh sure. Call the authorities--they have such a great track record. /s
1
Here's a real question about a real situation.
I worked at a hospital where a very attractive and competent young receptionist was hired and fired within a month. Why? She was hell-bent on marrying a doctor, and paged several of the male residents "to chat" so frequently that they stopped responding to calls from the lab. No grabbing or nasty talk was involved. Was this sexual harassment?
1
@KJ It sounds like she was preventing other employees from doing their jobs and potentially endangering lives. I wouldn't call it harassment but it's certainly inappropriate workplace behavior and the firing seems justified.
5
@KJ. Are you serious? Yes! Clearly!
@KJ Think about it. She was interfering with the doctors doing their jobs. Not everything is sexual harassment.
I also note your sexist assumption that all doctors are male. Examine your biases, please!!!
2
What some of these men don't seem to get is that even "minor" harassment often comes with other dominant and demeaning behaviour that leads to women changing jobs or not getting the promotion they deserve. They don't regard us as equals and think they can get away with this nasty kind of powerplay. And that is why many woman are angrier about it then the men in question assume. They're not just touching our butts, they're potentially ruining our careers. As long as they don't acknowledge that, they'll feel the anger.
13
Over the years I have had my butt grabbed more than a few times, my shoulders massaged and have even been kissed on the cheek at work many times, all by female co-workers.
Would I want then to lose their jobs over that?
No.
I'm an adult.
Had my female coworkers grabbed my genitals, forced me to engage in sexual behavior to save my job or likened me to an ape that is a different story and I would have fought to have them fired.
All Bill Maher did, was to correctly separate truly vile behavior, like those of freaks like Weinstein and C.K. from the simple stupidity of people like Senator Franken.
Michelle Goldberg would do well to grow up a little and recognize the facts of grown up life.
5
@Victorious Yankee How many of those female co-workers / those incidents (1) were unwelcome, (2) made you feel threatened about the status of your employment/your future with the company if you objected &/or (3) were perpetrated by someone physically larger/stronger than you? You might do well to consider/recognize the facts of grown up female life.
6
Bill Maher lost any credibility as a decent man and cultural critic in February of 2016. Gloria Steinem was his guest. His opener was to ask if he would get called out for being sexist if he commented on her body and then proceded to do so. His comments were ageist, sexist and at one point took it upon himself to pull her clothes from her body. This set the tone to for a weird talk where he cut her off before she was able to finish the sentence (and it's context) that went viral the same week that Madeleine Albright got beat up in the press for saying the same thing she's been saying for years. That was the week hell was raised against Hillary Clinton at a press speech in New Hampshire. A lot of men and some women ran with this trifecta of events that, in my opinion, was the beginning of this most current backlash against women's agency over their own words.
9
Why on earth would you "feel bad for a lot of men who were caught out by the # MeToo movement." ?!How can you endorse Al Franken's having grabbed women's butts as by expressing that it was not an "irredeemable sin?" Did he grab YOUR butt ?!
How can you be argue that " that public vilification is traumatic for a man whom many had reported as having harassed them? Where is your concern for the traumatized victims?
You wrote " I realize that I feel sorry for a lot of these men, but I don't think they feel sorry for women, or think about women's experience much at all. "
It seems that you feel the same. You have expressed no sorrow for the victims, or thought of the victim's experiences.
You will be happy to know that my predator, experienced no public humiliation, and that his reputation. remained intact. He remained the Chief of a Department at Mount Sinai Hospital, & a Fifth Avenue, Castle Connelly Doctor, until the day he died, while I remain traumatized, 30 years later.
My gyn doctor was certain that the doctor who molested me was a serial rapist. and encouraged me to report him.My attorney uncle advised me to tell no one. After all, who would believe the word of a 26 year old, over that of a prominent doctor ?
As you feel sorry for the perpetrators, you can take comfort that most sexual predators experience no consequences, while the victims are traumatized for life.
7
Thank you Michelle. A prime example of the #MeToo movement undermining itself: Matt Damon was villified for saying a pat on the butt is not the equivalent of rape.
This is no different from the absolutism infecting our politics - valid distinctions and even nuance are not the enemy of empathy, equality and progress. They are prerequisites.
5
Thank you Michelle. A prime example of the #MeToo movement undermining itself: Matt Damon was villified for saying a pat on the butt is not the equivalent of rape.
This is no different from the absolutism infecting our politics - valid distinctions and even nuance are not the enemy of empathy, equality and progress. They are prerequisites.
7
I think we have to get past the idea that sexual misbehavior is a life sentence. That's absolutely ridiculous. Some of the crimes here are misdemeanors.
Let's get real here. The problem here is sexual violence against women.The problem is rape. That's what has to be stopped. I personally don't care about the anguish suffered by some person [of whatever gender] who is incensed by having their butt felt at a Hollywood party. Unless we get our priorities right, we'll never solve the real problem, because we'll have replaced it by a tabloid proxy, and punished a few celebrities, for offences against other celebrities.
6
@Tansu Otunbayeva No, the real problem is that too many men feel entitled to view women as objects which exist to please/entertain men. Yes, rape is more traumatic than having your butt grabbed, but both are expressions of the same attitude that is reflected in verbal street harassment, and it is that attitude - that fundamental absence of respect for the autonomy of another human being - which is the problem. That is what needs to be addressed.
3
@Tansu Otunbayeva
That ignores that some of the lesser offenses are part of a culture/pattern of behavior that enables the more serious offenses of sexual violence, harassment and other abuse.
Getting your butt felt or breasts groped at work can cause anguish, because it demonstrates the abuser's utter lack of respect for the victim, it treats the victim as an object there solely for the abuser's use and pleasure. If I'm at work, at a job interview, at a meeting to discuss a work project, heck no you don't get to touch my butt or my breasts. Heck no you don't get to expose yourself to me, or ask me to disrobe. There is no reason why any of those behaviors belong in the workplace.
But for too long, victims of people doing those things have had their concerns dismissed by people who "personally don't care about the anguish suffered as a result" who dismiss the claims, blame the victim or "oh that's just Harvey being Harvey" And for too long, the cost to the victims have been overlooked - careers stalled, promotions denied, projects shelved or sidelined, hours cut, rumors spread, loss of confidence, ambition, trust sense of safety. Sometimes the victims take themselves out of the situation by quitting, but what opportunities and achievements were sacrificed for that?
Maybe instead of worrying about the impact of a "life sentence" of fallout for the abuser, maybe start worrying about the impact of a "life sentence" of fallout for the victims.
2
Thank you Ms Goldberg for highlighting the fundamental issue at stake in the #MeToo movement. It is not about vilifying men (and women) who engage in behaviors that range from outright crimes (sexual assault) to the sorts of everyday awfulness that so many women, people of color, and non cis-gendered people experience. It is about RESPECT. You cannot claim to respect women for their intellects while at the same time caressing their butts in public. You cannot claim to respect a person's humanity while at the same time pressuring them to have sex with you, or--worse--disrobing in front of them, à la Charlie Rose.
Women are often invisible as humans to men because men often seem to experience empathy only when confronted with their own kind. This is a learned behavior.
I don't feel sorry for men made uncomfortable in public by being called out for behavior that is unacceptable, disrespectful, and uncivilized. And yes: patting the butts of women in public is all three of those, Al Franken. I might miss your liberal voice in the Senate but I don't miss the lack of empathy you seem to have when it comes to understanding this. Why is it so hard for these guys to really apologize, and mean it?
Until and unless men come to understand that the world does not belong to them; that they share their space with others who deserve to be treated respectfully; that this is not about them, it is about the rest of us, the #MeToo movement will still be necessary.
8
Sorry, can't dredge up much sympathy. Men need to realize what it's like to spend nearly your whole life being objectified as a set of boobs and butt and always taking precautions in public for your safety. Clueless men are out there complaining about MeToo. I'm just getting louder.
313
I hesitate to enter this maelstrom, but Ms. Goldberg asks for "ideas to make things better. What ideas?" She writes, "I don’t know,..". So, I'll give it a shot of what may be obvious corrections of some evidently existing social malpractices:
1) Recognize the full spectrum of unwanted clumsy, dumb, to illegal sexually motivated activity. An unwanted pat on the butt is not forcible rape and warrants a different sort of corrective response and action.
2) If one (male or female) does a stupid thing, correct it, apologize, and don't do it again; if it's an illegal thing, it should be treated as such and reported (easier said than done, of course).
3) Men, including those with power, should always treat women as equals and with respect in all matters (and vice versa).
4) Most importantly, all sexually motivated activity, at any level, should be strictly consensual. If it's not, it's wrong. Don't do it.
11
I never watch tv but was visiting relatives for the holiday and saw this segment. It was uncomfortable. But Goldberg violated the rules and norms. Shame on her. It isn’t her right more than it would be if the roles were reversed. So stop the absurd broad brush ‘will someone please think of the children’ nonsense.
It is this conduct they harms the many MANY valid points in the long uverdue path to equality.
The point on Hockenberry is the most telling and seems missed on the Franken point: people are complex and not all bad (most of the time). The scorched earth nature of me too is akin to mass incarceration and I’m always perplexed why people don’t see this: you can’t damn someone forever for some arbitrary and shifting level of infraction.
But repentance and restitution are very reasonable demands. Might Hochenberry’s disability activism count for something?
Just google Thermidorian Reaction....
4
Michelle, I didn’t see the show, but you seem to think that challenging the veracity of Franken’s accusers is somehow off base.
Given that it all started with Leanne Tweeden’s accusations that Franken gave her a CONSENSUAL kiss that she didn’t like and that he pretended to grope her in a photo, through a 2-inch thick flack jacket that he didn’t touch, followed up with photos of Tweeden engaged in NON-consensual grinding, groping, and kissing of a variety of men while on the same USO tour, people, including Bill, can perhaps be forgiven for some skepticism.
The rest of the allegations don’t exactly build much of case either: a kiss that didn’t happen (yes, that was one of the accusations), a couple of butt pats (how is one to address the accusation of a butt pat from an anonymous person from years before?), to a waist squeeze during a photo. Most accusations anonymous, most subject to two different perspectives on what happened.
Keep in mind, Franken never actually admitted to any of the allegations. Here is what he said: “Some of the allegations against me are simply not true. Others I remember differently,”
Franken simply asked for a hearing. He was denied.
The jury is not just out on what happened with Franken, the jury was never even convened. And yes, that’s a serious problem. I think there a plenty of room for doubt.
23
@Serrated Thouhts Thank you for your clear and concise comments on the problems with the current climate. The fallout from late stage #metoo accusations has been really counterproductive. The issue of "consent" is far more complicated than most of the current commentary suggests, let alone the issues of proof of what actually happened years after an apparently casual encounter. One doesn't have to defend Harvey Weinstein to be concerned about these issues. Actually, condemning Weinstein's proven actions falls right into the middle of appropriate evaluation of these issues. That's not to suggest that's the bar that accusations have to clear, nor the consequences that should be applied, but it is a good start for discussion.
I can’t imagine the horror of feeling a mans hand on my backside. That must be so traumatic. Definitely an act that should cause a man his career, livelihood and reputation.
5
I saw Bill Mahr angrily respond to Michelle Goldberg in the midst of the discussion about Al Franken. It was rude. Franken's actions seemed more awkward than true sexual assaults, or even improper behavior. Of course, I'm an older woman who has been through life w/men doing whatever they damned well pleased, particularly if in positions of power, to facing rude and crude comments from guys at the filling station or in jobs when raises were given and bosses were demanding. Abortion, too, was another way men ruled, and it was much harder a generation ago to handle an unwanted pregnancy. Since the birth control pill was not around then, gosh what a congruence of events there could be! Let's concentrate on the elections and the Supreme Court and vote for those who support equal rights and progressive causes like health care for all, better education for all, and no more tax cuts for the wealthy!
6
As a medical student I had men crush up against me in the OR, put hands on my coccyx to show me where it was - remember, I was a medical student- non-medical students know where it is, call me "bitch" in a supposedly jovial way- "come with me bitch" and suggest in an evaluation that perhaps I was intimidated by his maleness and so less likely to engage- no, just disgusted by his inappropriate discussions. I had witnesses to all of these, male and female. Nothing happened to any of these pigs. Someone in the comments below calls # me too a Jihad. AH, men have normalized their groping and copping forever- cry me a river that they are now being called out on it and suffering some consequences. And thank you Michelle for pointing it out.
19
This is, as usual, a thoughtful piece by Ms. Goldberg. There are many layers to the #MeToo movement and once you get past the outright abusers like Weinstein and Moonves, things can get murky.
Al Franken resigned over the kind of silly, frat boy humor that was ubiquitous at that time. Try to watch nearly any comedy from 10 years ago or more and you will find things that we would loudly take offense to today.
Friends, an innocuous and enormously popular show from the 90s, is now routinely accused of white privilege, fat shaming, homophobia, etc.
Mr. Franken was vilified for things that he should have apologized for and moved on. That his main accuser was a conservative activist seems to have gotten lost in the swirl. That his resignation was led by our senator who was a potential Presidential rival, likewise.
I have deep sympathy for those whose careers have been stalled or ended because they were victims of sexual harassment. And the perpetrators should be punished financially and criminally if warranted.
But in a case like Franken, I think we lost a damn good senator for no good reason.
31
@Sparky There should be a special place in Political Hell for Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand. Putting her future ambitions over the political realities of our current predicament as a nation was indefensible. We will miss Al Franken. A lot. Clinton edged out Trump in the last election. We may not be so fortunate in the senatorial elections this Fall.
1
I remain mystified. How would these men feel if women or men grabbed their groin or slipped a hand between their legs, or twisted a nipple, or any other kind of act of demeaning sexual abuse on them? I listened empathetically to the men from OSU who were groped by their team MD while in college. They are as emotional and devastated as the many women who have told similar stories, so why shouldn't ALL MEN get it? Apparently women are just fair game. So, Mr. Hockenberry (whose commentary I used to listen to and love) why are your children being deprived? Because YOU caused this problem, not the women you harassed. YOU blew it. Now look inside yourself and do some self-reflection. And teach your children that YOU screwed up.
14
I agree with this op-ed. However, I have to ask why men do these things in the first place?? What causes a man, especially one in the public eye, to think he can do these things and get away with it?
6
@stb321 At least part of it are cultural constructions, like the 1970s-80s movie depictions of "normal" young men and the toxic norms and rituals (e.g., bachelor parties) that boys and men inflict on each other. I've seen and experienced some of those almost traumatizing rituals. I hope my sons never have to experience that and I'm glad for the #metoo movement for that reason.
2
@stb321 Not just men. Boys too. It's been reported that this anonymous accusation against Judge Kavanaugh arises from something he is alleged to have done when in high school
Thank you Michelle for interrupting Bill Maher he gets carried away sometimes with his own celebrity
These #MeToo men must apologize first to the women they harassed with their unwanted attention before any form of atonement can even be entertained
Former Senator Franken is a prime example of being caught in a net with the worst of the worst
We lost a tremendous talent which sorely is needed in this time of immoral obedience to instant gratification
Women have found their voice and now will begin to exercise their skills commanding a full seat at the table not just a folding chair
3
So many of these comments (sorry, guys, but they mostly seem to be written by men) complain about "due process" not having been afforded to gropers, as if legal action were pending. Goldberg's excellent column, on the other hand, is about social mores and our collective moral sense and how half the population would prefer not to feel a stranger's hand on their breasts. Do these men honestly believe that the only forum for moral action is a courtroom, not the public space? Ok, then, let's apply a few legal standards. Do they believe that a boss can never fire an employee for creeping out other workers, that creeps are a protected class from employment discrimination? Do they want an exception to First Amendment speech rights that says non-creeps pointing out creepy behavior is actually hate speech? If the creep happens to be a dad, do they believe that the creep's children should get special treatment over all the kids of non-creeps, because of the vast historical legacy (NOT) of sexist men facing discrimination? You can see how quickly "due process" leads to laughable questions of law. Meanwhile, out here in the public space, Goldberg is calling for men who cause harm to take responsibility for their actions. A genuine apology and offer to make amends should not have to be court-ordered. And, yes, the offended person does not have a moral obligation to accept an apology. That's up to her.
9
I don’t believe the majority of comments re “due process” were written by men. I got more of a 50/50 split, albeit I don’t wish to reread all comments again just to see whether I am correct. And, of course, I would be one of the women who wrote about Al Franken deserving due process - not bc he would make such a difference if he was back in the Senate, asking questions of unqualified nominees (although that would be nice) - but bc he DESERVES it, & requested it from the very beginning. While it’s true that there is a moral component in bad actions by people (men or women) - we have a legal system for a reason: so that people/a person can not accuse another of wrongdoing & society immediately assumes that that is true. In America, we assume people are innocent until proven guilty; & in the court of public opinion, if there is nothing more than a person’s word (w’out corroborating evidence) we should continue to hold that value close to our hearts.
I am not a woman who simply doesn’t understand or never had anyone close to me affected or hurt by a man. My mother was raped when I was a child, and was lucky to come out of that alive. And of all the MANY women this man raped (who weren’t dead), my mother testified against him & he was sent to jail. I know about DV, rape, abuse in the workplace, etc. But none of that excuses the core of our democracy, to allow a person to face their accusers & Franken was railroaded out of the senate before given that opportunity. That was wrong.
But what did John Hockenberry actually DO to merit his banishment? From everything I've heard, his and Leonard Lopate's ousters from WNYC were completely political and a calculated attempt to get rid of the "old white guys." That the station did not feel compelled to explain what specific "acts
they were being exiled for is telling. Lopate in particular appears to have gotten a raw deal. If this is MeToo, count me out. Signed, A Feminist
3
Wow! I feel exactly the same way. I'm extremely disgraced at the responses & excuses all the men have for their behavior & lack of conduct. They make it VERY clear they do not have the ability to empathize at all. These men of power, who have daughters, wives, sisters & mothers; And they can't fathom what it's like to live like a sexual target, day in & day out?! When they tell their wives to put something on more modest as they leave for whatever gala they're going to that evening. It doesn't cross their mind? How about when they're introduced to the new boyfriend of their daughter & they have to pretend to care about their daughters' well-being for at least the 5 minute introduction. Nothing there either? How about when they hear about ANYONE being taken advantage of? They must deserve this, right? Wrong! This is not a 'Shrug your shoulders and stare at the ground' scenario. Their existence ruins lives, but they're not as "important" lives. So it's okay? No. No. NO. If the women that are forced out for saying something can start over, the men are more than capable. And when they both begin their new jobs, if they're smart. They will NOT make the same mistakes again. Translation: Reciprocate respect. There's no effort to even become remotely understanding to the fear & situations of pure disgust we are put in indefinitely. UNACCEPTABLE. Who are their PR people? Empathy wasn't the go-to?! Too complicated of an issue with all those messy feelings & such.
5
Hmmm Maoist struggle sessions - not a bad idea. Part of the issue here is bullying. I hate bullies.
They deserve what they get. On the other hand people do change. Senator Robert Byrd is a good mainstream political example. He went from Citizens Council (KKK) to advocate for civil rights and went on a one man filibuster against the War inn Iraq.
If a person truly and deeply gets their transgressions and attempt a form of restoration then compassion and forgiveness is possible.
Lastly a righteous Maoist struggle session would be wasted on an
unrepentant creep like Weinstein.
Mike the Maoist
7
Asking these men to propose solutions to the problems they created is like asking Donald Trump to develop a handbook for civil discourse. You can pretty much expect to get what you're already getting; perhaps if women were a little more clear about what's okay and what's not, where it's okay to touch them and where it's not, what's the least offensive way to ask if they'll have sex with you.
The tell in this is Hockenberry's rhetorical query about whether a lifetime sentence for him and his children is appropriate. While asking that question clearly demonstrates he thinks it is not, he never offers anything that resembles a considered opinion about what would be appropriate. But expecting that a man who lacks the capacity to understand what he's done would then have the capacity to propose an appropriate punishment... well, we're back to Trump writing that handbook.
Sorry, Norm and Bill and the rest of you male apologists, but there's only 2 ways this cuts: Either no man has ever done this and every woman is lying, or every woman is telling the truth. The gray area of "some men" are innocent and "some women" are liars is exactly where we've been all along, and the results speak for themselves.
3
Ms. Goldberg:
John Hockenberry is not a paraplegic.
He is a person with paraplegia.
Or do you think persons with paraplegia are being too sensitive about this?
1
Louis CK needs to work 3 minutes of soul searching, apology driven, content into his act. He needs to show what he has learned...and how he understands the impact of his behavior on others and how he is truly sorry...no joking.Then he can segue into his material. He will be received with open arms...Same for the other lesser offenders. The slobs like Moonves and Weinstein? Shunned and expelled. No return. They can apologize to their tomato plants.
4
When I was a child, a man followed my mom and I up the stairs of our dumpy apartment and held a gun held to my head, threatening my life while my mom got him some money out of her dresser. I was definitely traumatized by it, but I did not for one minute wish evil or shame on the man. I think there are important differences between my experience and the experiences of the women involved in the #metoo movement who have been in some way sexually victimized. But I don't buy the idea that we should shame people, especially not in perpetuity, or in some sort of tbd judgmental limbo. The movement is important, and in certain respects it hasn't gone far enough. In other respects, it looks like the second coming of Salem.
They don't feel sorry. It's all on the same continuum of entitlement, not just to women's bodies but to the broader patriarchal agenda of privilege and power.
190
We have our history and that is hierarchy. Men see women through a prism of social order. Most regard independent women, women who see themselves as adults, self determined women and equal as anomalies. The rules that apply to men do not apply to women. While a man may pride himself on prowess, a woman would likely be degraded for the same behavior. Rarely do we use the same words for promiscuous men that we use for promiscuous women. Why would young boys find degrading young girls amusing? Why is it normal for older men to desire young girls? It is illegal and yet I would bet prevalent enough in the world arena for obvious reasons. The struggle to change the scenario is complicated.
2
Do some women lie? Sure. It seems to happen mostly in bitter divorce cases, as a tactic.
Do the vast, vast majority of women lie? Clearly, no. When 21 women who don't know each other ALL tell similar stories of a man over 30-40 years, then, yes, I believe them.
How many of these men accused felt shame and altered and ended their inappropriate or even harassing behavior BEFORE they were publicly called out? Even Al Franken didn't stop when he was elected. Which elderly senator grabbed a woman's breasts, not realizing (or maybe realizing) she, too, was a Senator?
Redemption, going back to Jesus in the New Testament, starts with the super-simple direction: Go, and sin no more. That's where I agree with Michelle Goldberg--you shouldn't have to wait to be called out as a sexist jerk, and then, complain that you're being unfairly mistreated NOW that you're paying for it.
Most of the men called out (Franken excepted) all denied the accusations and called their alleged victims liars, without exception, and only did SOME admit it after it cost them. Such predators deserve NO forgiveness because they haven't sought redemption.
Where's the public man who said: "I made a lot of inappropriate mistakes when I was younger, and I've worked very hard to never do that again, to be careful to stop being a jerk for the rest of my life."?
2
While sexual harassment and assault are clearly wrong, and should be punished. It is perhaps dangerous to create a non-objective standard whereby a person is adjudged to have done something wrong simply because another person feels a certain way, without regard to what the accused actually did. Not all feelings are reasonable (students who do badly in school often think that the teacher has it out for them--although this is rarely the case), and feelings can often be influenced by other factors, such as the race or appearance of the accused.
As an extreme example we generally grant qualified immunity to police officers involved in use of force incidents, including many that result in the death of a suspect, based on their feelings of "fear for their life and/or safety" without regard to whether or not those feelings were in fact reasonable. This has resulted in officers involved in shootings of unarmed people to be able to successfully claim their actions were justified, even when most reasonable observers (outside of law enforcement) would disagree.
2
IMHO you absolutely nailed it, Ms. Goldberg!
2
I wonder when there will be a universal reckoning for harrassment/bullying period.. why cherrypick just the so-called sexual, which is a subset of the larger issue of manipulation, cronyism, chauvanistic cliques and general toxicity in so any work environments.
Just as rape is a subset of assault, harrassment that veers into sexual territory is a subset of overall bullying and abuse of power in the workplace. Women and men abusers might express this in different ways but abuse is abuse, assault is assault. Will we 'believe all accusers' then?
especially by those in power of others is gender-neutral
5
Regarding the Bill Maher "New Rules" segment: every guest knows that this is Bill's thing and you don't break the pace. This is not a straight-up news show and Maher's opinions on matters to workplace male-female politics were no doubt known to you before you accepted the appearance. This is edutainment and Maher is a comedian-slash-social commentator. You interrupted his tightly timed segment -- which I've never seen before on that show BY ANYONE -- and he let you know you were out of line. I think I can guess when your next appearance will be: never. As for the rest of your piece, I could care less who you feel sorry for. Your condescension is no better or worse than a guy's. Continue to play to your base and see how many hearts and minds you change.
9
Michelle, I salute you on what was probably your last appearance on Maher
3
Yes. Thank you. Brilliantly laid out so that even the most obtuse naysayer might grasp why these pathetic half formed mea culpas are meaningless, particularly when followed by a pretty swift return to career and public life. It saddens me that Maher, with his bully pulpit (pun intended) cannot grasp the very real, lifelong consequences of harrassment, sexual abuse, and abuse of power. If women have to live with the emotional and career fallout of these acts, the perpetrators should too. I'm not talking Ansari level dating stupidity but Louis CK, Hockenberry, Franken level abuses of power that permanently affect the women subject to it
4
Nah. I don't feel sorry for them. They're part of a monolithic culture in which they are just bit players while the bigger personalities grab the big parts.
If you timid souls really want to purge society of abusive men then focus attention on our intelligence community, hidden behind those sacred words of "National Security".
1
Michelle, you were first out of the gate with a column calling for Al's resignation. I have a hard time with that considering you brought up other allegations on Maher's show that came well after your column. And if Roger Stone knew the allegations against Franken were coming then you know full well they were all a sham.
13
For centuries women have been abused, ignored, not hired, underpaid, fired, overworked, slapped, pinched, joked about, harassed and abused at the work place and in their homes. "Conjugal duty" was a thing and spousal rape was impossible. Sexual advances and indignities routine. They have been passed over for promotions, they've had their work and ideas get credited to a man, they've been shut out of positions or occupations and when hired they've suffered the daily toll of discrimination and belittling, most of which has never gotten talked about and all without due process, and they have not been believed or listened to. Now that powerful men are beginning to get a taste of something similar, everyone takes notice, feels bad for them, and bemoans the lack of due process. Yeah, well, life isn't fair. From now on keep your hands and your neanderthal ideas to yourself.
14
Well, I agree with Norm Macdonald and Al Franken.
The 'me too' movement, noble in intent, has taken on the flavor of a true witch hunt.
Al Franken is a comedian. He was travelling with Leeann Tweeden, whose only apparent virtue for the the USO tour was that she was a willing object of sexual desire for lots of military men. Google her name to see that she has made a career of exposing herself in sexually provocative positions for money.
How she can be 'offended' by a photograph under these circumstances smacks of nothing more that retribution by a Republican operative.
13
I understand where you're coming from.
We should feel for eachother all around.
And we do.
Generalizations are dangerous. All around.
1
hey in case everyone forgot there are a lot of us DECENT HONORABLE men out here. Who enjoy rewarding consensual sex lives with women we love. We exist too. Just saying.
3
@Nate
We don't say it nearly often enough, Nate. Yes, the world is full of decent, honorable men. Women haven't forgotten that good men are all around.
And we appreciate your support in dealing with the men who aren't decent and honorable.
5
Transferring the power of justice from trained law enforcement to twitter mobs has set back civilized society a century.
1
Here’s the deal, fellas. First, you can’t qualify your depradations by “ascribing [them] to out-of-fashion Byronic romanticism” unless, you know, you’ve actually read Byron. That excludes 99% of you. As for the rest (and even the one-percent of High Romantics), no, you can’t “put it behind you” regardless of your acknowledgments of wrongdoing any more than an alcoholic can swear off binging and start drinking moderately. The social attitudes that made you feel “entitled” to other people’s bodies are baked into your world view by the time you’re an adolescent, much like an alcoholic’s addiction is baked into his genes. Like an alcoholic, all you can do is acknowledge your tresspasses, apologize, and then take it day by day for the rest of your life. If you do this in good faith, you will achieve grace, if not forgiveness, and you will be able to build your life anew.
5
As a victim of sexual harassment back before the Clarence Thomas hearings, I don't feel sorry for theses harrassers. My harrasser - an attorney - finally paid me a little bit of money to make me go away. Meanwhile he kept his law practice and died a wealthy man. I, on the other hand, am still haunted. I had to move out of our new home because I was too traumatized to work at a high paying job. I never recovered. So feel sorry for these guys? No! They have destroyed lives; let them suffer.
3
Why shouldn't men who are likely to harass women sexually be in fear of being accused of that harassment or worse?From the time I hit puberty, I was told, over and over again, by family, friends, and the media, to fear men. They are unpredictable. Stronger than me. "Hardwired" to demand sex from women. Could overpower me. Don't walk outside at night alone. Don't drink with a man. Don't provoke them by wearing a too-short skirt. All my life, the warnings, and the fear.
251
@Kate
Yep. Now that men are tasting an ounce of fear about what women can do to their lives*, they're panicking. As Kate said, we live every day with the fear that men will ruin our careers with their sexual harassment and/or gender base discrimination, but also kill us, harm us, or rape us.
*Setting aside the irrationality of a middle-manager in an office job in Nowheresville, USA freaking out that women are coming for him next because a major political figure or famous producer has been accused of sexual harassment. That's a reasonable extrapolation.
2
@Kate
I think men are going to become quite a bit more cautious, even legalistic, in their dealings with women. Which is undoubtedly wonderful news to you.
The answer for men is: for any women you don't know well (and many you do), evaluate your actions according to hair-trigger sexual harassment laws and always, always, be planning your legal defense. If, that is, you consider women to continue to be worth the effort.
I was harassed by a boss as a young female in my early 20s. I avoided, joked and cajoled my way out of any real assault and had to use those means because I needed that job. I never complained and moved for law school after enduring this for 4 years.
That said, now in my 50s I’ve had wonderful bosses, female and male, with no other harassment issues. My boyfriend is 60 and has worked in the corporate world with some oversight over younger females and would never even consider harassing them for sex, ever. (He calls them his “work daughters” because he treats them how he would want a boss to treat his daughters).
My point is this abuse is out there and we need to address it and listen to women who are harassed but keep in mind the “good” guys out there who have the confidence and self respect to not take advantage of women n the workplace. No broad brushes and let due process work before we condemn anyone.
135
@Palcah
While it sounds like what your boyfriend does is OK, I would balk at being called a "daughter." It is an insult not to be considered a grown woman by your boss and treated the same way!
@Palcah
Due process does not occur on the street. They should take it to court. I am completely 100% uninterested in accusations without proof and in “He said, she said” stories. If all someone has is a story without concrete proof , no matter how real or painful, all they have is a story.
Examine the hierarchy of the victim classes. We are expected to feel sorry for, make amends, extend privilege to, whatever, to a paraplegic, a member of standing among the victim classes, because he is wheel chair bound.
2
Al Franken was railroaded. Just plain wrong.
12
Thank you. Because quite a few men still think women should be flattered by harassment by THEM, the educational process needs to continue.
7
No, they don't feel bad for women.
many of these men and the offspring they're concerned about will be fine. we never need to feel sorry for them.
As for bill maher...he gets it wrong AGAIN. its too bad because he's had great insights in the past on many other issues.
The right to pursue life without being groped or considered an object or propositioned should not be considered a "special ask" for women.
6
I watched Bill Maher’s show and I agree with him. I really respect Michelle as a first rate columnist but it seems women only think men have an issue with touchy freely behavior. I am a gay man who is still quite muscular and many women feel Ok about squeezing my arms or patting my chest. Does it bother me? No, it doesn’t but it could. The issue with the #metoo movement is the high and mighty tone of women in this crusade. It is OK to now decide certain uncomfortable behavior is off limits now but it is not Ok to make it retroactive. Rape and coercion are definitely wrong and by the way have always been. No man or woman should be allowed to get away with them. But when it comes to plain bad behavior, we should address it but not get so high and mighty and put oneself on a pedestal. Times have changed and behaviors have changed but don’t skewer everyone with the same sword. How one wields ones power is quite important.
7
As a younger woman, I had my share of attempted kissings, gratuitous hugs (aka cheap feels), and general unwanted attention. Most women can probably say the same.
But I am thankful I never experienced the things that the women we are hearing from now did.
With some of these guys, their egos may suffer but that's not our problem. Guys like Clinton and Trump have so far skated free. The others seem to be starting to pay for their outrageous behavior and they don't like it. They may have to do like the Cosby show actor who recently was found working at Trader Joe's. All work has dignity.
8
The rules didn't change. Tolerance for breaking them did.
5
I was with you til your last paragraph: the comment about these men having "time on their hands" is a cheap shot and not worthy of your otherwise thoughtful article.
But to answer the question you are asking: When women had no power to address harassment, whispering campaigns seemed to be the only form of redress. But now that men are being fired for harassment, there should be some road back for them, just as there is for anyone who has committed a crime. "Do the crime, do the time" should apply to harassers too, right? They shouldn't be pariahs forever. Required reading for you, Michelle: Tom Perrotta's novel Little Children.
1
@Fred Hockenberry, like Louis C.K., has been a "pariah" for less than one year.
1
MeToo, and Catholic Church predators required many enablers. People are uncomfortable with sexual assault so they deny or fall into "its too depressing" mode which is code for do not bother me with unpleasantness - until it hits home. Getting clear on this requires a cultural shift and courage. If many adults ignore/not read PA attorney general's report of priests raping children, we have a long way to go.
3
There’s an old saying, “you can’t change what you don’t acknowledge.” This is the problem with the predators, especially when they whine about their livelihoods being derailed. Which means that they dont comprehend that their loathsome behavior has consequences!
Sexual harassment can is not about sex it is about wielding your power over someone who is seemingly “less” than yAs I read the article, I was reminded why this problem exists in the first place: people are complicit, victims are fearful of losing their jobs or ...not being believed.
2
Hey wait a min!
How many women have had their careers and lives derailed because if these men and so many others?
At 7 months pregnant I had to quit my job as a cashier after the manager hid my purse (with car keys) at closing time (9 pm).
No big deal right? Should I have stayed on to see what happened next?
7
Michelle I watched the Bill Maher show you were on. Sorry, but I think that the politics of Franken's main accuser is pertinent here. Al Franken never got to have a fair investigation into the accusations and was assumed guilty by default. I would not have wished that even on Trump, who is said to have barged into the Miss Teen America pageant dressing rooms to "inspect" what is going on. He even bragged about it, but Franken must go without any official investigation?
9
I used to listen to some of Sean Hannity just to hear what the lunatic fringe was up to. Twice, he had a victim of Al Franken (one was the women in the picture). Both of these women were right-wing buddies of Sean. Both spent the segment laughing and joking. In other words, they didn’t seem to be terribly traumatized about what happened to them. In fact, they were giddy about taking down a democratic senator. Something to think about.
22
A neighbor harassed me when we were in our building elevator. It was verbal but inescapable. Later he attempted to apologize by cornering me in a public place to again force his words on me. So what did he understand? Nothing. Is he changed? No. Am I? Yes and not for the better. So yes, all you men who want our understanding and forgiveness, we are not going there. You just have to change your behavior because it’s the right thing to do and not just because you got caught. No sympathy from this corner.
3
A few heavy-handed outcomes for a few jerky (mostly) old, white, male figureheads won’t have me handwringing. Even if I loved them and enjoyed their company in the past (Lopate, Louis CK). Why do we worry so much about how they spend their retirement when they worried not a bit about the effects of their behavior on women? Many tried to intimidate and silence their victims after the abuse. Let’s save our energy instead for the work still needing to be done to acheive relative safety and parity in the workplace; once we get that right, we can consider our prodigal sons.
6
Michelle hits it right on the nail. I agree most men don’t really try to put themselves in the shoes of their accusers. It’s all about them, and their experience, never about how the lives of these women has changed forever. When men argue that these women are just old fashioned, too sensitive, liars, opportunists, etc, that’s when you realize these men don’t get it. They have been lulled into believing what the society and our culture has taught them: women are not as important as men so our opinions and experiences don’t matter that much. ‘Just get over it & forget about it’ women are repeatedly told. My question is, when will we women become first class citizens? And all of the upright, honest-to- goodness men out there who truly respect & consider women their equal must support and help women be elevated from that lower rung if we ever want to live in a fair and just society.
1
"...the slightly less powerful, less overtly predatory schmoes whose gross behavior was tacitly accepted by those around them until, suddenly, it wasn’t."
Power or not, what they are doing is wrong and they know it. I do NOT feel sorry for them.
4
I always enjoy your appearances on the Bill Maher show and noticed the awkward moment you mention in this article. What I saw was the same response from Bill that occurs when anyone (including (maybe especially) his comedian friends ) interrupt him during a scripted part of the show. Not only did you throw him off his script to make your point,as Bill continued and if you had waited 10 seconds, he made the exact same point that you made (it wasn't just about a "staged" photo).
Perhaps Bill needs to spell out the rules, "interruptions" during the discussion segment are fair game, but "interruptions during scripted segments are "heckling" and are treated as such. Or maybe it's just common sense.
Men being cads is behavior to be aware of, prevent and eliminate. Entertainers being snippy in the moment doesn't rise to the same level.
5
I watch Real Time and saw the segment. I think he’s entitled to his opinions-it IS his show—and I thought you were annoying when you interrupted his bit. I also like and wish Al Franken hadn’t resigned. What good did that do? I am a feminist. Men can be jerks but the worse abuse I’ve endured in my career was from a high level female executive at a major entertainment company. HR knew she was a problem but never took action. I left after 6 months to work at another major entertainment company for a wonderful woman executive. It’s not necessary to be a victim. The problem is POWER. Stop complaining about things that happened 30 or even 5 years ago.
5
Agree with this column.
That being said, I don't know about the many other cases, but Louis CK and Al Franken did offer public statements of apology last year.
Then again, many thought their apologies were not heartfelt enough, not empathetic enough and too self-exculpatory.
So this is tricky.
2
I think a big part of the problem is that most men are wracking their brain and saying "was I one of those guys". and years ago their were no messages to men that this kind of behavior was wrong. Do not get me wrong I am not saying that this behavior was ok, simply that there were no messages out there culturally to say it was inappropriate. So many men stay silent because we are afraid to admit our complicity or lack of action. But most of us silently feel awful about what women have been through.
1
Michelle, I agree with most of the commenters here that Maher was unacceptably rude to you. Maher believes Franken's denials, but he hushed you in that most condescending way to make his points. Thanks for interrupting him. He deserved it!
5
I just think it's very hard for men to face the shame of what they've done. They've not only been hurtful but usually clumsy. To face these hard truths about themselves, well, that takes a lot of character and years and years of analysis.
Ms. Goldberg is correct here in her premise that men who have caused sexual offenses toward women need to acknowledge the harm they have done before they can expect sympathy or redemption. And Al Franken (who's offenses are minor compared to most #metoo men) has surely done that. So why is he still a pariah? When will Ms. Goldberg or some other prominent women speak up on his behalf?
5
@Paul
Al Franken is a pariah because he wishes to resume a position in this country that requires - or should - that those entrusted with the power and responsibility that comes with such positions have a particularly strong moral code and the ability to maintain self-control and self-discipline in all circumstances. That he failed those standards on a very rudimentary level is a strong indicator that he’s not the man for the job.
2
We're living in an era that threatens to become a gender war. Men looking to blame women; women looking to blame men. Both genders are targeting one another for what’s not working…in their own lives, in our society, and in the world.
With no one is seeking to stand in responsibility.
This gender stand-off will not create positive or beneficial outcomes. Why? Because it is being created within the same belief paradigm; the victim/persecutor paradigm. Where women were once the victims and men the persecutors, now men are the victims and women are the persecutors.
I confess, I had hoped that when the moment for women to empower themselves came…they would do it differently than men.
This paradigm is being generated and perpetuated all over the world…in business, politics, government, education, labor, marketing, media, technology, etc.; people seeking to blame and shame, to foment fear and anger…rather than stand in responsibility for their own lives and the world we all have created.
Indeed, people are victimized, many horribly, but you are only a victim if you choose to define yourself – label yourself - a “victim” When you take responsibility to heal, to do the hard work to free yourself of believing you are a victim…you take back your power. That…is authentic empowerment.
As a woman who has experienced molestation, as well as many incidents of sexual harassment and bullying, I understand it’s not just about me...it’s about “we.”
We...are in this together.
1
I am glad to read this column. I agree it is a mistake to fail to distinguish between serial rapists who should be locked up, like Weinstein, and people who crossed a line and need to reform their prior bad behavior, but who don't deserve to be permanently exiled from society.
But didn't Matt Damon get in trouble for trying to make this point?
1
Plz don't forget about the Me Too Women, like Asia Argento. Most of us was told the story about the boy who cried wolf when we where young. Seems not very many of us understood the meaning of the tale.
1
This article strikes a balance that resonates with me on a personal level. My brother is one of these men. I love him, but he needs to redeem himself before he can ask for the rest of us to forgive and forget. What have the men (and some women) exposed by #MeToo accusers done to understand why what they did was so wrong? What steps have they taken to ensure they will never do it again?
Hockenberry and men like him seem to think we should protect them from the consequences of their actions. How perverse it is that Hockenberry thinks his children's pain is somehow on his accusers, and not on him -- that what hurt them was not the understanding that their father is an abuser, but the fact that he got caught? If a parent fails to be the sort of person their children can be proud to call mom or dad, how can that be anyone else's fault? (And while we're at it, we should see Franken's abuse of women as a betrayal of progressives' needs: if you're a politician whose constituents depend on you to be there and advocate for them, you have a responsibility not to do things that will undermine your effectiveness in office, especially not things that contradict your purported values like women's equality).
I don't expect these men to fade away from society forever. I expect them to be better. If they want to be in positions of power, they need to take responsibility for how they use that power.
9
Zero sympathy for Hockenberry, but it’s true that his victims should spare some of their wrath for the people who enabled his rise to fame, which included some women (like WNYC President Laura Walker). He’s never not been a leering, domineering boor who made life miserable for many of those in his orbit, but up until a year ago those were considered positive traits in the world of public radio. Behavior that is now rightly condemned was considered charming, arrogance and bullying were encouraged and rewarded by those in the executive/management sphere, while the concerns of those drudges who actually made the radio “product” happen were given short shrift. What we now rightly call a toxic environment was until very recently an essential component of the aggressive, quasi-corporate image Hockenberry’s former employer wanted to project to its employees so they would meekly accept their role as cogs in a wheel driven largely by jerks like Hockenberry. That’s only changing now because of #MeToo and its effect on the bottom line; there is no actual enlightenment taking place, just a reaction to market forces, which is also why Jonathan Schwartz and Leonard Lopate are also unemployed.
Even when they do the right thing it’s for the wrong reasons; sexual harassment of those at the bottom of the hierarchy is only bad when it’s bad for business.
2
Many folks suggest that the consequences for such behavior are too severe, as no criminal violation is alleged. Nonsense.
This conveniently ignores many other actions employers, schools and colleges take, based on their own mission and standards. In many charter schools, for example, children are expelled for failing to stand straight in a line, or for a few violations of a strict, punitive dress code. Colleges often expel students for one incident of academic dishonesty. Teachers and professors can lose a job because of one bad joke, as happened in a New York City private school last year. Employees are dismissed under "at will" policies for behavior much less egregious than committed by Franken, Hockenberry and many, many others. None among those disciplinary actions requires anything close to a criminal standard of proof. In fact, in many cases, the accused has few or no rights at all.
A small book could be filled with minor infractions that can lead to dismissal from enrollment or employment. Why are so many men, and a few women, so interested in the consequences of this particular kind of misbehavior? No one suggested that Franken et al should serve prison time. When you act like an entitled, impulsive, immature jerk, sometimes you lose your job. I like Franken's politics, but have no sympathy.
3
Great column. Only liberal men should be forgiven. Of all people Michelle picks we’ll known liberal “journalist” John Hockenberry. Could she give the name of one non liberal who she would forgive? Anyone. They don’t have to be famous. The importance of this is the track record the liberal press established in the coverage of Bill Clinton’s numerous harassment cases. It seems Michelle takes into account political views in deciding who is worthy of forgiveness.
I sometimes disagree with Bill Maher, especially when he goes on an anti Moslem tirade. But this time I agreed with him wholeheartedly. It isn’t disengenous for Goldberg to say how ackward she felt after Maher chastised her for interrupting him during his New Rules. First of all, I have watched they show several times and no one has done, so it had nothing to do with her being a woman. It was just rude. But also, Goldberg used her platform in one of her first columns for this newspaper to call for Frankem’s resignation. I think Maher as trying to tell her how misguided that was.
He mentioned how Roger Stone was behind at least some of the allegations, which Goldberg failed to do. He also mentioned how Stone’s friend Tweedon wasn’t not actually touched and another, one of the few who weren’t anonymous said Franken grabbed her waist, foe heavens sake, when agreeing to pose foe a photo in a public place. All of the incidents were in public places, and none of the women worked for Franken or had their careers ruined after the encounter. Thanks to Gillibrand, who may have felt emboldened By Goldberg, Franken wasn’t hounded out of the senate, without the due process he deserved.
Sorry Goldberg. You claim the men were wrong. Well in the case of Franken you and Gillibrand were wrong, as we’re his senate colleagues who allowed themselves to possibly be played by Roger Stone. I’m glad Maher called you out on this. We could use Franken now.
8
We need to go back to what MeToo meant, an open dialogue for people to say they have been treated poorly in a world where it didn't count it as inappropriate. If it means more men get tripped up in their careers, fine, it was long over due. There are people trying to make it in the entertainment business that have not been crude or broken physical boundaries, make way for those people, including those in other professional fields.
2
The matter of 'restitution' would seem to be the crux of the issue: outside of the context of the law, society as a whole has never reached any definitive agreement as to what justice for victims, of any crime, actually entails. Ms. Goldberg speaks of 'restitution,' and others speak of 'recompense.' This would suggest that meting out justice is simple a matter of economics; that the perpetrator of a crime is not guilty so much as in debt to that society against whose laws they have transgressed; that once these debts are repaid (in what form, none can definitively say), justice is done.
¶ There are yet others who cry for 'revenge,' or for 'punishment,' which would seem to suggest a more archaic, if more straightforward, conception of justice as 'an eye for an eye': the criminal harms the societal body, constituted as it is by law and custom, and so must be harmed themself, in what is at once an act of penalization, and a reminder that the societal body transcends the individual. ¶ We as a society must decide which of these models, if any, we seek to realize with our criminal justice system. We as a society must also realize that our cries for justice, no matter how well-intentioned, fall deaf of on the ears of the non-human universe; there is no justice 'out there,' waiting to be realized; we must construct it ourselves.
2
It is utterly infuriating that so much space is devoted to the suffering of these predators. I don't feel sorry for them. I don't care how they find their way or if they find their way. That is their journey and their problem. It is not wrong for them to suffer the consequences of their behavior. Is it pain for them? Sure. Pain that they earned.
if you want to help someone, focus on the victims.
7
I suffered through Hockeberry's essay last night, and I hope he finds a good therapist—preferably a woman. While I have enormous sympathy for his struggle with sexuality as a disabled man, I have little for the "romanticism" he mourns. And I was saddened by his disappointment that the romantic encounters he imagined were a part of the natural landscape of journalism seems to be disappearing.
5
@Desert Dogood
From Beatrice to Kryptonite--The tragedy of the post-modern world.
Thanks for this column and the insights of Michele Goldberg and the commenters. I suffered incidents of harassment when I was a teenager. I did not know to identify these occurrences as abusive. As an adult, older men tried to lure me into encounters, mostly friends of my parents no less, but by then I knew enough to politely extricate myself. Why was I polite? Why was I not angry? Although got out of these situations I still could not identify them as abuse. Now I can thanks to the Me Too movement and columns like this one.
However, I wish the Me Too movement would expand. Say you have a husband who is verbally and emotionally abusive and you divorce him. Once you divorce however, you're left with caring for your children, paying for them, sacrificing your career to make sure your children are well cared for, and the fathers happily move on to start new families and abandon responsibilities for the children they sired. I am now supporting my disabled daughter and her daughter without a cent of support for my x husband who has a lot more money than I have. Help with nursery school and daycare, nope! Help with everyday expenses, nope! Help with after school care, nope! I cannot be the only one who is left with these responsibilities with little help from the fathers. What about a Me Too movement for mothers left with financial and emotional support for children? I realize this issue has been addressed to some extent, yet it is clearly not enough.
10
I've read that parole boards, when evaluating an offender's request to go free after serving time in jail, want to see that the person understands the harm they did, feels remorse for it, and has a concrete plan for a different future. Why not set that standard for the "Me Too" offenders?
7
I agree with this premise, and don't understand why men won't take responsibility and say they are sorry. It is almost as if admitting their transgression will be a sign of weakness.
Any man who has power over a woman's livelihood who does this is especially guilty
10
There is a cultural rebalancing going on in the west.
And likely some lesser offenders or even some innocents might be mixed in with the Harveys/Trumps of the world.
Unfortunate, but for the good.
Hopefully these times will lead to an equilibrium of common decency from men towards women.
2
I am female and agree with Vicki from Boca Raton, FL. In addition to public awareness and education, women have to start speaking up for themselves and setting boundaries. I have had to do it in the workplace by delivering a direct, professional message wrapped in humor. I wasn’t bothered again. I have also had to be direct when I wasn’t interested in sex after a date. Ladies, life isn’t easy. Life is not fair. No one owes us anything. We are not victims because of our gender. Like men, we need to speak up and set boundaries. Believe me, men speak up and speak out all of the time. I’m sick and tired of modern gender politics and it’s time that we start openly discussing the double standards and issues that both women AND men face. Maybe if we start acknowledging the issues that affect both genders, we’ll get somewhere solving these problems.
11
Nowadays the notion of The Golden Rule seems trite and naïve, but I've always tried my best to follow it. Not through the prism of any religious doctrine, but just a general guideline on how to interact with my fellow humans, both at work, grocery store, the street, etc.
Mentally walking in the other person's shoes does wonders to counter-balance the ego.
14
I watch Real Time every week, and I have to say that segment Ms. Goldberg references really missed the mark. Bill Maher is a good comedian, but he's also the guy who mounts a vigorous defense of Hugh Hefner and has spoken out against vaccines.
8
@Thad I thought it was incredibly childish of him, I saw him live in April and when I saw that exchange it really made me want to stop watching the show. There is always a time to talk to the panel, his New Rules being interrupted was not more important than allowing the panel to open the conversation. Ugh.
@Stefany
Everyone who guests on (or watches) knows the rules of New Rules. I’m a longtime fan of MG, but she misstepped here. Her proper forum to respond to New Rules segment is the one she is using now.
It was about thirty years ago when representatives from Albany came to the human resources department of a New York State agency at which I worked to conduct training sessions on sexual harassment laws. The substance could not have been clearer. An employee who felt uncomfortable about something a superior or co-worker said or did that was of a sexual nature did not have to provide proof of the person's offensive conduct in order to tell human resources about who and what made her uncomfortable. However, the appropriate steps were also clearly explained in the training sessions. The woman should first state to the offending person that she was uncomfortable with the touch, the joke, the innuendo or whatever. If the person offended again, she should clearly explain to him that she had the right to complain to human resources, but would give him one more chance to cease the offending behavior and that a third strike would result in a complaint. The fact that it took a Me Too movement for employers to do what New York State did thirty years ago with respect to telling women about their rights in the workplace suggests to me that men did not want their female employees to know that they have these rights.
11
"men aren’t proposing paths for restitution. They’re asking why women won’t give them absolution."
Michelle, you are absolutely right. Men accuse women claim victimhood too easily, so are they.
19
Michelle, I am so glad that you mentioned what happened on Maher's show. I was wondering what you were thinking while sitting there on the panel. I do disagree with you on one thing- it WAS worth mentioning on its own.
12
Ms. Goldberg, I read your article several times. I appreciate your commments. I agree that where ever one stands on the #MeToo movement, one can easily fall into a binary true or false view of events that is not all helpful to moving forward with a solution for a transgressor’s particular fact situation.
Transgressors can do much to redeem themselves if they would do what addicts do in 12 step work, which includes identifying and admitting the exact nature of their character defects; being willing to make amends, identifying who they have harmed, and making restitution to those they harmed, which often requires a liftime of continued work.
Resitution does not mean saying, “I apologize.” It requires more; making restitution is asking the person harmed what is needed to undo the harm and being willing to do it for a lifetime.
Those who do 12 step work are taught not to expect or demand foregiveness, else one has the false belief that one is entitled to forgiveness. But one must try to make restitution even if the door is slammed in once face.
Those who truly make amends to the best of their ability, often find they are welcomed to return to society to be productive.
23
In my long decades of employment, I encountered several supervisors who were abusive, dismissive, perhaps a little sadistic. Some were male, some female. Some got uncomfortably close to someone they were balling out. Some touched, but not on butt or breast or crotch. I found all of these extremely offensive, frightening, unacceptable...but what’s an employee to do? In my opinion, this is the way we should be framing this conversation, as abuse of power and position, as coercion, as bullying, with those that are sexual a subset. (I hope it’s obvious that felonious behavior such as assault is a separate and far worse category.)
16
Thank you Michelle! As a rule I watch Bill Maher based on who the guests are and when I saw you were to be on it I knew I would watch. And then I watched you when he went on about Al Franken as I couldn't believe it either. In all these cases I chalk it up to testosterone poisoning. Even in those cases of men who are supposed to "get it," and Bill Maher is certainly NOT one of those, they don't. Their default setting seems to be "what about ME" and concern for the negative impact on their feelings, their livelihood, their families, but they rarely seem to make the connection that the pain they are experiencing is directly related to the pain they have caused others. And rarely do their bad boy actions occur only once- they are serial offenders and still don't get it. Unfortunately Bill Maher is evidence that like fungi, their support for each other can be unseen and run "underground." it may not be evident but it's there nonetheless.
19
@Barbara I don't think "what about me" characterizes Franken. Maher doesn't speak for him. Franken simply resigned.
2
I have not read Hockenberry's piece, but from Ms. Goldberg's description, it sounds likely that he has been experiencing at least some PTSD. That would not be uncommon, I suspect, in such cases. A psychologist I know who has worked extensively with sex offenders said that much of the work for many (not all) of these folks often involves helping them not to get stuck feeling that they never did anything good, that their whole self is now changed to this bad person. Banishment used to be a death sentence, and loss of the support of one's whole social world may kill. (An accused colleague of mine committed suicide.) It's easy to blame such people for not showing the right kind of remorse though pretty much anything they say gets discounted by more people than not.
Compassion is often in short supply on both sides of this discussion but it's especially hard for someone in a traumatized state to think clearly about how what they did may have injured, especially since the offended parties are usually not going to ever talk to them directly. Hurt people hurt people, and that includes women who have been injured. Much of this difficulty understanding how the injured person feels happens on both sides of this issue. Until our society develops a compassionate approach to reconciliation when possible, this is just going to keep the divisiveness going.
8
@Dr G. Seriously? You're claiming that PTSD makes these offenders oblivious to the pain and embarrassment they have caused? THEY are not the victims --- they deserve NO compassion - THEY are the offenders. They have no feeling for the women they abuse, because they are entitled to do what they want, when they want, to whomever they want and, quite frankly, are surprised that anyone should be upset when, after all, they are the ones suffering, along with their families. My heart bleeds for them - NOT!
3
As important as it is for men to grow up and not use their position of power to harass others, it is also important for women to grow up and start speaking up for themselves. Sometimes that may mean making choices to not go to someone's hotel room for a "meeting" or to immediately leave if there are no others present. It may mean losing out on opportunities. That is certainly unfortunate, but beats being humiliated. Years ago, I was an attorney at a government agency, and the job involved travel. My boss was with me on one trip, went back to DC and ran around telling others he had spent the night under the same roof with me....we were at the same hotel. When I got back to DC, I went into his office, closed his door and told him off in no uncertain terms. I was a young attorney, and perhaps was lucky that he was the kind of man he was, as he realized the damage he was doing by his joking around, which was what it was, and I was also probably lucky that I worked for a federal agency where firing me would have been difficult. That was in the 1970's...when women attorneys were still quite rare. Women need to stand up for themselves.
29
@Vicki Remember that the New Yorker viciously mocked Mike Pence for not meeting alone with a woman. So why did you suggest that a woman not meet with a man alone? Jane Mayer said Pence is sexist. Who is right?
@Vicki Oh please not that old, sneaky blame the victims routine! Yes women know they should stick up for themselves and you were lucky, And most women at one time or another have stuck up for themselves, when it did not mean a loss of a job, and they had children to support, or any other serious issues for which they depended on that job. And many, many women did go to human resources who did nothing. You think those many women who found themselves victims did not desperately want to stand up for themselves? They must have dreamed about it for years, but that silly old thing called survival kicked in. Please have some compassion for women who were in impossible situations.
3
The last paragraph really says it all (and powerfully, as I suppose one would expect from a pro. I like the "irreplaceably creative" part because our culture has a real habit of pretending that certain people--most of whom are men--are so uniquely talented that they must be paid 20,000 times that of their employees or given a pass on "eccentricities" that sometimes include assault, discrimination, or other awful behavior.
Remorse followed by atonement and a genuine attempt at restitution--giving time, money, and recognition to causes that lift up survivors, for example--would be a good path for those men outed by #MeToo who wish to return to public life.
36
I do not feel sorry for these men. No rules have changed. I grew up with men, I have worked with men, been friends with men, and loved men who never even dreamed of being so repugnant as to violate a woman's self worth in such a way.
347
@PBaldwin,
"I grew up with men, I have worked with men, been friends with men, and loved men..."
Sounds suspiciously close to, "Some of my best friends are men."
You didn't mean it that way, but when others are talking about men being "hardwired that way," or about "testosterone poisoning," or other comments that were they in other social arenas would be found shocking for their presumption of innate inferiority of "the other", it isn't surprising that those accused by "alternative justice" don't find it fair. After all, "alternative justice" has yet to develop a triage of crimes, let alone the concept of civil rights.
Until it does, it will always more resemble a virtual Place de la Revolution with a career chopping guillotine than it will the fair and impartial systems we know as "justice".
Michelle Goldberg wants to believe she spoke truth to power on Bill Maher. His show used to be called "Politically Incorrect" before he was, essentially, #MeToo'd for saying that the perpetrators of September 11 were many despicable things, but "cowards" wasn't the right word. Michelle Goldberg was demanding the same correctness that Maher has been an activist against all his career. Only now he's a pariah, because -- Michelle Goldberg and friends say so.
Michelle Goldberg isn't speaking truth to power, that requires her to be powerless and she is anything but. She is knitting shrouds.
2
Michelle, we all know what you meant by "schmoe" but in this case, it amused me. Here's the Urban Dictionary definition:
Schmoe: A man who pays money to wrestle with a woman who is often more muscular and stronger than he is, for sexual gratification, although no overt sexual activity is performed.
The women who have been harassed and demeaned by grabby superiors — to use the term very loosely — are suddenly finding themselves to be stronger than their tormentors, and are exacting their revenge. Who can blame them? In the meantime, the immature, entitled feelers are finding out what it's like to be on the receiving end of unwanted attention.
6
In my younger days I had been the recipient
(I won't say "victim") of unwanted sexual overtures from both powerful women and men.
Did I decide to destroy their careers through public shaming? No, I accepted that, in their eyes, they were offering me a deal. They wanted something from me and I wanted something from them. They were on (or near) the top of the mountain, I was coming from the bottom. They were offering a helicopter ride, if I wanted it. But the price for me, was not acceptable. These weren't monsters; they were run-of-the-mill transactional sociopaths. Each time I walked away, knowing that this meant a closed career path. I boohooed to a few friends, who weren't all that sympathetic. Nobody feels sorry for a healthy young white man with good bones...
7
There is no comparison between what you described and anything any woman has ever experienced from the males of our species. From brutal rape to unwanted looks, the male gender must be held accountable for the acts and thoughts of all of their members. That includes other vile attempts at co-opting the #metoo movement by ever claiming victimhood for any man.
4
As a child of the 50s and 60s my late father left me three important lessons; always shake hands like you mean it (this applied to men and women), always stand straight and always, always respect women. Science has told us that a young man's brain does not mature until his mid - late 20s. We now have a request to investigate our nominated justice for sexual harassment during his high school years. It is sad that these men who prey on women did not have a father to teach them this important lesson of like; however, there is a major difference between a man in power abusing women to a pimple face high school student. Yes, high school boys think with the wrong part of their anatomy, but let's not put them in the same basket with the Weinsteins, Moonves, Trumps and yes, even Clintons of the world...
3
Power over women, sexual harassment, sexual abuse, rape, murdering of woman runs rampant throughout the world, its singularly one of the world's largest social problems. Why is it in war soldiers commit rape? Certainly isn't a military action? Nevertheless, laws do little to control and contain these behaviors, just as laws do little to contain racism and acts of racism when the social norms of a society accepts these behaviors. These are huge social problems that are solved when the societies change their perceptions of the problem, and new social rules and norms are established. Male privilege has controlled almost all of our institutions, it's hard to mete out justice with a stacked court; taking it to the streets is a necessary step in this hopefully new era in our society.
8
My wife and partner has worked for 40 years in a "hostile" work environment, that more than once involved sexual assault by a powerful customer. My daughter has also worked in a unrelated field where a tradition, dating back centuries, of misogyny exists to this day. The hostile nature of these work environments, construction in the case of my wife and maritime in my daughter's case, is driven in part by the high stakes. Failure is often career ending for construction project managers and in the case of maritime work, potentially life ending for captain and crew. These industries are not for the faint of heart, male or female. This does not excuse abusive behavior or in any way justify the gross and disgusting behavior that has justifiably ended careers and destroyed the reputations of the deserving. Unfortunately the question, obscured, rather than clarified here, equating the self serving attempt at redemption by Mr. Hockenberry with Maher's commentary, is not helpful in changing the deep roots of these abuses. Maher challenged the idea that all transgressions are equal and all transgressors should face the same consequences, no matter the cost, in the case of Mr. Franken, perhaps to society. Putting this problem in perspective is worthy of reflection. I did not hear disparagement in Maher's comments of Mr Franken's accusers, rather, perhaps awkwardly, he asked us to consider balancing the crime with the punishment and what the cost of failing to do so is to us all.
110
Humans are victims of each other and always have been. Our species is a messy work in progress and seems very slow to learn some very basic respect and decency for each other. And women making some special claim to some unique victimization will not lead anywhere good. Men could easily, if men wanted to, identify areas and places where they could put responsibility for something and where they could claim victimization and blame women. As soon as someone perks up and starts screaming for humans treating each other better and more fairly and more decently and respectfully, I will cheer that person or group. Till then, no chance. #metoo is complete and utter poison, that will lead to nothing lasting nor productive for all people.
2
Read Joseph Epstein's "The Joys of Victimhood" in the New York Times. For me, it's as trenchant an analysis of the American psyche as Hofstader's "The Paranoid Style in American politics.
My problem with the whole "Me, Too," thing they call a "movement" is the primacy of accusation and the obliteration of the rights of the accused.
Some argue the legal process, which presumes innocence, has simply been ineffective and must be abandoned and replaced with "shaming."
I beg to differ.
I can well imagine the boorish and even criminal behavior described by women who have accused many of the men involved, but as Catherine Deneuve pointed out, a certain amount of boorish and clumsy behavior ought to be confronted and demeaned on the spot and women should not play the role of the hothouse flowers who wilt under any sort of pressure.
There is nothing like a stinging right cross to the face and a loud voice to humble the errant male; and while this does not always work and can be risky, it's preferable to simply accepting the role of the victim.
Moreover, may of the stories present the case of "I had to submit or lose my job." Well, that is a choice, isn't it?
7
The reason these men are confused is because of the very same reason they sexually harassed and/or assaulted women in the first place--in patriarchal world in which women were traditionally deemed to be property, and in which men's power was considered appropriate in every situation, apologizing is not defined as masculine behavior. To do the right thing these men first have to own the harm they did, but they can't see what harm they did because these mostly middle aged and older men are used to not being questioned because they have wielded most of the power in what is a patriarchal society. Of course they are "confused," and greatly saddened by the ever so slowly changing world.
The patriarchal system is still thriving today despite the many efforts consistently being made to extinguish it. Many people still assume gender is an inherent trait so why fight sexism because "it's just natural." Many wrongly assume women are now equal. We have a long way to go before patriarchy is dead and firmly buried in its grave.
This type of harm to (mostly) women says nothing about the harm women as a group routinely experience in terms of rape and intimate partner abuse. Nor does it speak to the symbolic violence women experience because on average they get paid less than men in virtually every work arena. Women still suffer vast inequality because patriarchal control has been around so long and taken as just the way it should be. We have a long, hard fight ahead of us.
23
Exactly how I feel and think about this topic. Thanks, Ms. Goldberg.
17
This sounds like a feminist tribunal. Now, if you think the Roman Empire was just, that is your opinion, but the evidence holds that self-interest played a substantial role! I want evidence-based due process, and only that.
5
John Hockenberry is - or was - a hard-working, courageous journalist who did a great deal of fine work.
Senator Al Franken could have been a great President of the United States.
Who does Hockenberry go to in order to redeem himself - a committee of NYT editorial writers?
Now that the Times editorial board has appinted Michelle Goldberg judge and jury, perhaps she can make a ruling in his case.
Or possibly the editors of "The Cut" could form a tribunal.
Regarding Senator Franken, it seems clear he was pushed out of the Senate both to help ensure Roy Moore's defeat and to ease Sentor Gillibrand's path to higher office.
I hope he runs again, so Minnesota voters can state their preference.
We need him in the Senate - and by "we" I mean Americans, regardless of gender.
And #metoo activisits need to direct their fire and ire where it belongs - the Oval Office.
13
@manta666: John Hockenberry can still do "fine work." And he can make a good living. He just has to do it as a non-celebrity, without fame. Millions of people do it every day. Where can he go? Out of the public eye. Many Americans, especially women, don't want to see him any more. That career path is closed to him because of his own past behavior.
13
@manta666 this is a ridiculous response to an extremely measured rebuke. Hockenberry had 7,000 words in a national magazine. He chose to use it for self-pity. Imagine instead he used it for critical self-reflection, empathy for victims and statements of atonement (backed by action). It’s not that tough.
3
@manta666
His accusers, the people he hurt, get to decide when he is "redeemed."
3
It is hard for men to believe, for long, anyway, that they have egregiously harmed the women they have sexually harassed or molested or repeatedly, "innocently" flirted with in the workplace when one of the spoils of their victory, their "success," is sexual gratification. It always has been throughout history. Men are hardwired for it. So, in an enlightened world, the only thing we can do is to keep commensurately punishing men for their assaults, physical or verbal, without discussion of whether or not the writerly Hockenberry-types are contrite for the right reasons. Women might never get that satisfaction. How many victims of crimes do? In the end, the only thing that matters is that society knows, by the rule of law and common sense, what is right and what is wrong. And that we act and prosecute accordingly.
9
I agree with Maher about the Franken situation. A rightwing female radio host decided to use a photo that was a joke which Franken did while on a USO tour with her to make that her "me too" moment. No one who looked at that photo couldn't see that it was a joke perpetrated by a comedian. Then a smattering of women accused him of "touching" them on the campaign trail as they posed with him for photos that they wanted. Meanwhile Kirsten Gilibrand -- a fellow senator -- took advantage of the situation in order to remove a rival of hers for the Democratic presidential nomination in 2020. Gilibrand's grandmother was a ruthless political operative of the machine politics that dominated Albany for decades and evidently the apple didn't fall far from the tree. Franken was denied the hearing that he requested which would have forced these women to do more than make an accusation that wrecked his political career. I'm disappointed that Goldberg decided to take the side of the women who accused Franken considering they never had do more than accuse in order to create a firestorm.
37
I saw the Bill Maher episode. Good for you, Michelle, for calling Bill out on his comments. It wasn't just one woman who said Al Franken groped her, it was eight. So, it was a horrible pattern with him, and it was right that he resigned. Good riddance!
It's not just a matter of degree -- we also need to look at the amount of offenses. If the offender keeps doing this over and over again then he deserves to lose his job. On top of this, he should not be allowed back in the public arena for a long time, if ever.
4
Our introspective Michelle interrupted the host when appearing as a guest? I am shocked.
1
In my experience, these types of predatory men (and women in a few cases) are all the same. They feel that they’re entitled to abuse/dominate others, particularly those they perceive as weaker than themselves. And if and when these predators are called out (which rarely ever happens until now), then predictably they feel that they’re entitled to immediate redemption and/or forgiveness. In other words, it’s always all about them and their pathological narcissism.
5
While, yes, there is a huge difference between a grope and rape, there is also a difference between the hostile work environments these men created and the public shaming they're "enduring." How many women's careers did they ruin? Between bad performance reviews, lack of networking, firings, and generally destroying any confidence a person had about their work - it's more complex than what these men are dealing with. I don't feel so bad about these guys tasting their own medicine...
19
@Anastasi
I worked in a hostile work environment under a female manager who did her utmost to ruin my career. I had to keep my mouth shut - the manager was close with top management and who would believe a man complaining about a woman anyway?
See?
Its about power and powerlessness.
Powerlessness as in lack of representation.
Go Union.
Note how the entertainment industry have an outsized share of abusive men? Also note how industry A listers like Bill Mahre down play abusers like Al Franken and mocking Franken's accusers? Turn off Bill Mahre's show or don't support his projects or productions if you want to stamp out his double standards - put him out of business where his vile opinions are no longer heard.
1
@Realist
An amusing tag, given that you claim the 'entertainment industry' has an 'outsized share of abusive men.'
Doubt it, "Realist." World doesn't work that way. Entitled, powerful people are often tempted to abuse that power. Regardless of their "industry" - or gender.
Slurs are easy. Facts are hard. Lets start with facts, then work from there.
1
@manta666 The casting couch is a staple in that Industry, copied by others elsewhere.
Ok, let's go over it again re this subject in general for the umpteenth time, I feel like a broken record.
Sexual harassment or worse has been illegal since app. 1980 in the workplace in theory and action. Before that period it was de facto legal.
Since then countless women have come forth complained, sued and won. I know I saw many in the large corporation I worked for.
The best way to paint predators into the corner immediately is not to co depend or enable them.
Do not wait 20 yrs. to do something, only complain when the roles or promotions stop or worse start the sexual activity or protect predators who are giving money to feminist causes.
Predators live for these types of people.
There will always be predators, but unfortunately also co dependents and enablers including many women. Columns like these will not stop any of them.
Michelle, when are you going to write a column on this subject, ie co dependents and enablers, many of them women.
I have a bet in Vegas on pigs flying before you do.
6
@Paul
Ok, let's go over it again re this subject in general for the umpteenth time, I feel like a broken record
Thanks for the condescending lecture. Perhaps it is not so easy for a victim to come forward. Perhaps they deserve a bit more respect, kindness and understanding. Perhaps not all the responsibility lies on the shoulders of victims. A vicim is not an enabler.
I have bets too.
Pigs will fly before men stop sexually harassing and assaulting women.
Pigs will fly before people stop shifting/placing blame and responsibility on victims instead of where it belongs.
Thank you Ms Goldberg for this article. Please continue writing on any subject you see fit. I enjoy reading your point of view.
5
@Mike
What you fail to grasp, Paul, is that your message simply isn't relevant.
Walk into the light, Paul. Stop making the same point umpteen times.
Keep calling men out . Don't let this be a fading media buzz. This behavior is not an abberration, while all men do not succumb to this cultural practice, many look the other way when it does occur.
12
@citizen So do many women... and many women are also the perpetrators, but why should we even care, they are just women, no harm done when men are the victims.
My idea is to stop making this a gender issue, and do the right thing and make it an issue about individuals, regardless of sex.
The fragile, delicate egos of some men - coupled with a strong sense of privilege and entitlement - means we’ll never witness any remorse or concern for their victims. The best they’ll offer is the old “if I offended anyone..” statement, which they believe qualifies as atonement. Once the faux apology is out of the way, they may even indulge in the old “blame the victim” game - always a proven winner when it comes to creating false equivalency and avoiding responsibility.
I used to really like Louis C.K. until I learned about his fondness for unzipping in front of women. It made my jaw drop to read that he did an unannounced gig at a comedy club without - that I’m aware of - ever having addressed his truly disgusting behaviour. We’re expected to go back to chuckling at his observations about his teenage daughters - and just pretend his own vile behaviour towards women is irrelevant. This is the picture of an obtuse, self-absorbed man-child, clueless and flailing in a changing world. And yet, millions won’t have a problem with Louis C.K. at all. Any similarities to Trump, are purely coincidental!
8
@Brendan W
Its best not to confuse Louis CK -- who clearly suffers from a mental disorder -- from other men who are just plain inconsiderate and moronic.
I agree. Being a bully and abuser is an odious offense. Full stop. If these men are guilty they deserve exile. But that raises my main point. What happened to due process? Innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. Its difficult to write anything that appears to defend these people. But I do feel sorry for some for being exiled without due process.
5
@MarvinRedding His contract was not renewed, for cause, after an internal inquiry at WNYC. I don't think a jury trial in a court of law is required here! He was found to have created a hostile work environment by behaving in an unprofessional way toward his colleagues. This seems an appropriate reason to remove someone from his job.
5
Al Franken was not allowed due process and I agreed with Bill Maher's rant. Franken was a good politician and we could use all of those we can find.
The #MeToo movement has brought a major problem to the fore and it is one that needs to stay there until progress is made. Just don't forget due process!
15
I think a large part of the push-back against the excesses of #metoo is due to the lack of proportionality, which is central to our concept of justice. The most egregious examples of this injustice are in cases where no crime or tort has occurred, but where someone is accused of only "inappropriate" behavior.
Another problem with #metoo is that it has devolved from a movement of women's empowerment to become instead a paternalistic and puritanical inquisition that casts women as shrinking violets who must be protected from any discomfort related to the "evils" of human sexuality.
Finally, the overreach of #metoo threatens to diminish the validity of claims by persons who have actually suffered sexual assault or harassment, IE 'The Girl Who Cried Wolf'.
8
I'd take your concerns more to heart Michelle if you had maybe talked to some of these men, particularly Franken. You were at the head of the mob calling for his head, equating his behavior with monsters like Weinstein. It was grossly unfair then (not to mention stupid from a politics of women's rights in Congress position), and it's unfair now to tar Franken with Maher's loutish comment. That comment and others like it notwithstanding, there is legitimate criticism to be made about how "justice" and due process have been meted out in much of this activity. Whether or not you feel sorry for some of these men is insignificant in the shadow of the rush to judgement and punishment that you've had a heavy hand in.
6
Great article. I find the reaction to the MeToo movement by many (mostly men), evidenced by many comments here, all too predictable. It is victim blaming, sad justification, excuse making, red herrings instead of honest admittance, remorse and change. The ratio of unreported harassers to those wrongly accused is likely staggering (1,000,000:1, maybe). The concern, outrage and sympathy should belong more with the 1,000,000. But of course, in many arenas, it is not. The idea that upon reading this article one would come to the defense of the harasser is telling. Is Al Franken the same as H Weinstein? No, but so what? What he did is wrong. I have no sympathy for his plight (is he in prison? Has he been physically assaulted? Is he living in poverty?).
The problem isn't social media. The problem isn't that it was not decided in a court of law (since when is that the bar for abhorrent, disgusting behavior?) The problem is that the powerful (men) have been taking advantage of and sexually harassing and abusing people with less power than them. Thanks to social media and the actions of some responsible, respectable people (men and women), some (and only a small proportion) of the abusers are being held accountable. I do not shed a tear for Al Franken, Louis CK, H Weinstein (how long do think the list really is/should be?), nor will I. I do shed a tear for the victims of their disgusting behavior.
6
Sorting this out requires a couple things that need to be emphasized.
One is that our society has conditioned men and women very differently as regards sexual interactions and shame about sex.
Another is that public shaming is vulnerable to abuse. The Tweeden-Franken case should be a caution about how it can be weaponized.
The two things interact. While public shaming seems disproportionate in some individual cases (depending on your conditioning!), it can also be seen as an effort to steer society towards better ways of conditioning. Public actions are more clearly appropriate when they're about goals for society.
3
Thanks for writing this Michelle. I squirmed in my seat when I watched Bill Maher tell you on live TV, "this quite isn't your place" when you tried to point out certain facts during his defence of Al Franken.
I usually love watching Bill Maher but he couldn't have chosen a more dismissive tone and choice of words. This whole "Al was a progressive who voted plenty of times for women's issues so he should be given a pass" defence doesn't fly. Al Franken messed up, not just once, on multiple occasions. He might not have been accused of rape but sleazy behavior, unwanted kisses, a grope here and there…it’s still wrong. Like all the other men involved in the MeToo scandal, there was a pattern of behavior that shows they didn’t question how they behaved towards women because they didn't think there was anything inherently wrong with it.
And now, the moment we start to reckon with it as a society, look how fast it becomes “let's get back to business": you have supposedly liberal people like Bill Maher trying to delegitimize some women's claims because inconveniently, they’re against his friend; you’ve got Louis C. K. who turns up at the Comedy Cellar a couple of weeks ago to a standing ovation…? Aren’t these the same self-protecting, “brush it under the rug” attitudes that led to the whole MeToo movement in the first place? Men, women and society are not done learning from this yet. We’re barely getting started.
11
@PFitz Whatever he may or may not have done, Franken's behavior since "getting caught" has been exemplary. Maybe he shouldn't go back into politics, but he should not be lumped in with this Huckenberry fellow or even Maher. In addition to pointing to "wrong" the movement needs exemplary men it can point to as "right." Men who DID respond correctly to being called out.
4
@PFitz It's hard to believe people have watched Bill Maher without seeing his dehumanizing and dismissive behavior toward most people, but particularly women, all along. I'm glad Michelle had the guts to mix it up with him, even just a little bit, and succeed in briefly drawing out the reality of his underlying attitude.
3
@Robert David South
I agree that Franken and the Democratic party have lead by example since this all came to light. However to say that it is unfair for Franken's reputation to go down alongside the Huckenberrys and the Weinsteins is besides the point. This is about holding adults accountable for their actions.
Franken lost it all because he couldn’t keep his hands too himself? Well that’s just too bad.
I’m sure Franken, like all the other men involved in this are truly sorry that they’ve lost their careers, reputations and livelihoods. But are they really sorry about what they did or are they just sorry because they got caught? The men in this saga are not the victims. Did anyone force Franken to behave the way he did? Now that he has atoned for his behavior does that mean that we automatically wipe the slate clean and pretend like it never happened?
Yes, Franken has responded correctly to being called out but why did it take an entire movement for men like Franken, Huckenberry and all the rest to face up to what should be a primordial understanding of basic right and wrong? And yes, it would be great if there were a few more exemplary men who stand up and are more vocal about leading by example because clearly there was a gaping need for it.
". . . I don't think they feel sorry for women, or think about women's experience much at all." Michelle Goldberg: If you really want to find out whether your sweeping supposition is accurate, why don't you call up these men and ask them if they do, in fact, feel sorry for women and do in fact sometimes "think about women?" That's what a good reporter does.
7
Why is a crime not treated as a crime? Why are assaults, batteries, and trespasses not prosecuted? Why, when sex is involved, do mush words (like groped) come into play? Remove the statutes of limitations, prosecute the perps, and when they come out of jail, they can be treated like any other ex-felon. Its that simple. As to why men don't care about the women victims, well that is the same reason the perp did it in the first place.
2
Franken should have never resigned. That was a travesty. This outrage was only justifiable if more serious allegations arose and they didn't. Franken apologized for his behavior which was unacceptable. He has asked for an ethics investigation into his conduct & for the opportunity to make things up to his female supporters. We should have let him do this. He had earned that right. He had been a good Senator for Minnesota & would have been a better one going forward. We have to stop equating sexual assault or harassment with men being sexual offensive. They are not the same thing. One is a crime the other is obnoxious behavior. I'm sure almost every man on planet Earth has been guilty of this in some point in time. We can & should hold those accountable who have committed crimes. But we go off the rails when we treat people who are guilty of no crime the same way. Eventually there will be overreach. Eventually this will backfire. There will be a fierce backlash, as all of us decide we can’t allow Progressive fanatics destroy people’s lives by retroactively imposing today’s sexual standards on past actions. But by that point these political purists will have torn our country apart. Lets don't kid ourselves what "Jacobin feminists" want (Goldberg's words in an earlier column not mine). All men are guilty. All men must be punished. Obviously Franken was offered up as a sacrificial lamb so Dems can avoid charges of partisanship when it comes to sexual misconduct. Shameful.
10
the predatory men robbed women of their careers.
career interrupted by banishment for #metoo crimes? no sympathy.
my sympathy is with the women whose careers were blocked, sidelined, interrupted, sabotaged, and damaged by the men.
13
The furor of women drove #MeToo to become a moral authoritarian organization. To be accused is to be guilty. That has no place in a democratic society where rule of law and due process need to be followed no matter how right your cause is. Roadkill, like All Franken, is not okay.
12
At some point, the outrage over misogynistic privilege that straight men perpetrated on females, and the persistent wearing of victim-hood by the straight sister clan, eludes my gay understanding of being decent people who although they foisted their unique position on others now need not return to old ways but new ways of relating to each other as people. Being a masculine gay man, I am ignored, not seen and often reviled by this straight sisterhood when I vied for jobs on merit when a "twapa twapa" eyebrow and curtsy waggle won the bosses attention. But dare he touch or mention this he too, when he was down would be reviled. Let's face facts, we are sexual beings who are not automatons when we go to work, but there are appropriate norms of behavior. When they are crossed, especially in a power based structure either by the pursued or the pursuer, they need to be addressed. I ask are stiletto heels in the office for style or impact? I dare say I could come to the office with over tight pants and a shirt unbuttoned to my naval but then I would be sent home as inappropriately dressed, Let's rethink how we dress and act at the office and let's have a change in how we see power about the always over sexualized nature of hetero-power-based politics. Success need not be a hunt, tackle and kill game.
2
Thank you Michelle. Good to have someone think and write about complexity.
9
Yes. This.
You nailed it.
6
One wonders about the chilling effect the devastation of #metoo accusations will have on men willing to work with and closely mentor women... Is this and unintended consequence?
3
Yes, won't someone...anyone...think of the men?
If one is unable to "mentor" a woman without worrying about being accused of harassment, maybe he should do some hard thinking.
2
What strikes me is the sheer obliviousness of these men to the suffering they caused, as they obsess about their own suffering. It's kind of infantile. There's not much learning going on. So my sympathy is pretty limited. Sorry you can't make the same living, but it's not like you're Dalton Trumbo.
Any of these guys who try to make a comeback a la Louis CK, with zero reference to their actions, before any of their victims publicly say it's okay, should be indefinitely exiled from what they were doing. They have clearly not come to grips with what they did.
11
To me, the key issue is not whether men feel adequately empathetic toward the victims of their abuse. The issue is whether the "punishment" for their abuse is proportional to the gravity of the offense.
Nobody feels sorry that Harvey Weinstein's career was ruined because of his egregious treatment of women. However for a lifetime career to be destroyed because of an unwelcome hug or telling off-color jokes, or a sexual proposition that occurred thirty years previously, strikes many people as going too far. In the court of public opinion, it can seem the only punishment is a professional death sentence.
7
Meanwhile, the Education Department secretary is revising Title IX standards for addressing cases of sexual harassment and assault on college campuses. To make them weaker.
1
I love it, "irreplaceably creative, <with> time on their hands.
Well done, Ms Goldberg.
2
I believe all women’s stories of being treated unfairly, except for Serena’s claims in the US Open.
1
Harvey Weinstein expressed a pathology of power tied up in sexual control and domination. The key word here is pathological as found in a sociopath or psychopath. The question is – how much is a reflection of his own personal dysfunction vs. the collective “patriarchy” as so many are sourcing as the root cause.
We have a long history of sublimating the old gods of love and war into a monotheistic God defended by good intentioned crusaders. Unfortunately, Mars is so tied up with Venus that love becomes intertwined with aggression to the point that boundaries are unclear and tested constantly.
With Weinstein this is expressed in the most manipulative way – blackmailing victims into putting out or career suicide. There are many of this class who get off on the thrill of this type of control and power that is being usurped from the gods. They are the gods – in their minds.
With Franken, you have the perfect scapegoat for the runaway animus the Weinsteins of the world leave us with. All of the hate, rage, pain and injustice find a projected landing place on the poor shmoe caught with pictures.
This broad brush of judgment painted on all “offenders of the boundary” has sent shivers down the spine of all shmoes in the world who may or may not have crossed the line.
Are we really left with a negotiated settlement of patriarchy with the matriarchy where the answer is mass castration and institutionalized victimization? What kind of backlash will this backlash movement engender?
4
I have never believed the women who claimed that Al Franken grabbed them. It was all a little too well timed. If you don't think women can be liars, or paid to be liars, look at Asio Argento. That whole sordid affair ended tragically. Metoo is one thing, believing every Joan Rick and Mary is another. The women that accused Franken need to be vetted, if for no other reason than one of them was a FOX news sympathizing freind of Hannity and Roger Stone. That puts her firmly in the creep department.
6
Thank you for writing this.
3
I agree completely with Maher. Franken can do more help for more Americans IN Congress than out.
What he did to Leeann Tweeden was obviously a joke. And that was the first time in all of this that I heard she was just another right wing shill. And If Franken had some hand on butts moments, I still don't think that accounts for a lifetime ban.
Hockenberry, I don't feel too sorry for. Actions like that—bullying and hostile work environments—have to have consequences and that also means thinking how it affects your children.
12
@Joe
I gotta say....I take pictures with women on occasion. I have never considered putting my hand on their butt. It's out of line. I wasn't raised that way, and I don't raise my kids that way. I'd like to ask the same of my congresspeople. They certainly get (or should) that elected they are now in a position of power. There's no excuse that times are different, these guys all grew up in times where you treated people (especially women if you were raised male) with high respect. Al crossed the line.
136
@Joe
....and since Franken was never given due process how do we determine he did in fact put his hand on anyone’s butt. Some accusers claim he did that while their husbands took the pictures which I think is highly suspect.
The most prominent Me Too Man is sitting in the White House, voted for by his ardent supporters either in spite of or because of his interview comments and multiple accusers. He is an accused sexual harasser and abuser who sits at the acme of power and seemingly not accountable for his actions against women and under-age girls. On the other end of the spectrum is Al Franken who was tossed out of the Senate after admitting his guilt and apologizing. So there you have the bookends of the MeToo movement. Until the Donald Trumps of the world meet the same fate as the Al Frankens of this world there is no justice for anyone and we all should be ashamed.
3
An instructive article would be a collection of comments by Bill Clinton apologists who are still major media stars and executives. Many are the same people that write that it’s dangerous to criticize the media. But I’m not holding my breath. It would be too embarrassing. To read Eleanor Clift would be hilarious and pathetic.
3
Perhaps if this man had been thinking about his kids before and during his bad behavior there would be no need for his "cry me a river" essay. Maybe thinking about the possibility of their suffering if he were outed would have put some brakes on his mistreatment of women, maybe not.
14
The disorientations some men seem to be experiencing in the wake of #MeToo derives from a truth so simple yet so at odds with everything they have been taught. It's this: only women get to decide what is appropriate to do to their bodies. For these men that means not only are their assumptions and prerogatives no illegitimate; it also means they don't even get a voice in deciding what's ok and what isn't, what's terrible and what's only a little bit bad, what's victimization and what is not. After centuries of doing all the talking, no wonder having no say makes them feel like victims. Such injustice. Poor babies.
6
More power to the #me to movement !
Hypothetically ,what would ensue if the power structure was levelled genderwise .Would it be pax for both parties and peace forever between the sexes.Or will the levelled playing field be a fertile ground for individual predators of both genders to indulge themselves , after all the root cause of the present problem is directly related to the inequity of power - sexually and even socio-economically . Finally it would devolve
to the individual how he/she conducts themselves and this in turn would be a direct reflection of the mindset of the person.
Though sexual harassment is a serious topic and those harassed saddled with an unfair burden of shame, there remains a responsibility to not be silent. I’m no fan of these long delayed accusations. Nothing can be proved. There’s no DNA or other trace evidence that can be employed to assign guilt, it’s merely her word v his. And it’s because women make far more sympathetic figures that “some” of these accused men are being dealt a rather shabby hand.
5
Can men and women work together as equals? Can men and women have one on one meetings? Do we need to become mike pences and avoid such encounters? Do we need to return to having chaperones? I am an old man who never did any of what these men are accused of. Should I get a medal?
1
Perhaps if our legal system had not spent centuries trashing women who accused men of rape, I would feel a shred of sympathy for sexual harassers torn from their lucrative jobs by the crosswinds of social change.
Perhaps if it had *ever before* been possible to lodge a complaint with HR about a groper in a high position without firing or other retaliation, I would feel that some of these men deserved another hearing.
Perhaps if women had not spent centuries, not decades, trying to work at an honest job that paid a decent wage *without* being groped or harassed or actually raped, assumed to be available, and sexually objectified......
And perhaps if any of the men loudly trumpeting their victimization seemed remorseful, rather than angry at their loss of privilege, loss of status, loss of "face"......but they do not.
I feel sorry for John Hockenberry because he is disabled, not because he made such a fool of himself that his kids are ashamed of him.
Separating these Male Lagging Indicators from their assumed privilege is part of long-awaited social change for women.
When these Troglodytes are able to inhale their loss of privilege, reflect on the behavior that earned them public ignominy, truly understand how poorly they behaved--criminally in some cases--and try to make amends to their many victims, then and only then will I develop compassion for them.
Until then: no mercy, no sympathy, nada. Their rage is sound and fury, signifying nothing.
13
Several men in this forum seem very concerned that no “court of law” has weighed in on the charges of workplace sexual harrassment that have brought many of these men down.
So I would like to ask when workplace issues EVER go through a court of law? Workplace issues are usually dealt with in the workplace, and as a rule the more power you have in a company the less likely you are to have any workplace repercussions.
So for YEARS women have brought accusations of sexual misconduct to their workplaces and have been told “well sorry, he’s an important guy” For YEARS women’s careers have been destroyed by these same powerful guys without anything like a court of law being involved.
But now that public opinion has changed, and workplaces think it is better for their PR to fire workplace harrassers, we are supposed to think this is a matter for the courts? Some of these men may be accused of crimes, but most of them are being accused of breaking workplace rules or norms. Unless the only recourse a worker has is to sue their company in court, sexual harrassment issues will never be dealt with mainly through the law.
Will some innocent men be accused? Maybe. It’s a flawed system like all sytems. But I notice when the flaws allowed serial sexual harrassers to regularly destroy women’s lives and careers those were flaws we should all live with, but now that the flaws might damage MEN...oooh clutch your pearls.
16
@Karen
I think men are inclined to clutch their gonads.
2
Good column and I love that stiletto in the last paragraph.
3
Have you met any men? This Indictment of a gender seems a little overblown. This is where I stop listening. I wonder what an alien from another planet would make of this.
4
Bravo, Michelle Goldberg. Hockenberry's essay does leave the impression that he (men?) are incapable of considering women equal and deserving of empathy, too caught up in wallowing in their victim-hood. And for those who say we need a way to distinguish between the Weinsteins and the Frankens, rest assured that we do. Franken was pushed to step down from the Senate while Weinstein is out on bail in an ankle bracelet facing a criminal trial.
6
It's very simple. Don't sexually harass anyone. If this is what it takes for people to learn that unacceptable behavior is finally actually unacceptable, good.
I don't feel bad for them. I feel bad for millennia of women who dealt with this treatment and had no recourse.
373
@rockstarkate
100% agree.
Now define sexual harassment? Used to not include harmless things as a handshake, a hug or harmless pick-up lines but in my 10+ years in corp america those are all things that are taught in courses as "possible" inappropriate behavior. The lines have blurred too much.
So glad I am happily married to a strong, powerful woman. So terrified of how to teach my 3 young girls about this topic.
1
@rockstarkate Easier said than done. You don't have to take your clothes off or assault a woman to be guilty of sexual harassment. An ill-chosen form of words or an off-color joke is enough these days.
Probably the most widespread effect of this will be continuous self-censorship and an avoidance of contact with women that one does not know well. It won't do much for everyday professional and social relationships.
1
Quite disingenuous replies, but not surprising. Nobody has been accused of an inappropriate handshake.
Nice try though. It's not that difficult. You know what harassment is, and you don't want to admit it.
2
Like a few posters, I am concerned that we have tossed our legal system on the trash heap with the MeToo movement.
I see some fundamental flaws here.
1) The gender based distinction where men are automatically the predators and women automatically the prey is wrong. The discussion needs to be framed about who are the aggressors and who are the victims- not men and women.
2) There is an underlying assumption in the MeToo movement that accusers are truthful and that the accused are guilty- which flies in the face of our core principles of justice- that everyone is innocent until proven guilty.
3) When accusers seek to "make an example" of someone, my first thought is that this is vengeance- not justice.
4) MeToo smacks of vigilantes.
5) Scapegoating a group whether it's a religion, "race", or in this case gender where the actions of a few have dire consequences for many does not lead to good outcomes.
7
It is so interesting to see the divide between men and women within the comment section. As a man, I found it hard to see why left-leaning people, including women, wouldn't see the Al Franken episode differently from the other public cases of harassment, intimidation, and impropriety. However, a quick scan of the comments suggest that men are willing to give Al another chance and women are not willing to let this slide. More evidence that this is yet another way in which the country is divided.
5
@Craig
Not so fast. I'm a woman and I agree with you. The reason I don't make comments in which I give men like Al Franken a pass is because I'll be told by other women that I'm part of the problem. I'm getting a little sick and tired of it.
I'll also admit right here and now that I'm okay with Louis CK doing a gig. Oh, horrors.
There are probably many women who feel as I do who are choosing not to add their two cents. As a baby boomer who has come to realize that the mess the country's in is somehow entirely my fault, I've lost my taste for making comments that will set me up, yet again.
So, I wouldn't put too much stock in the men vs. women divide conclusion you've made. Plenty of women gave Franken a pass from day one. We're just not going to say so out loud.
1
Putting the brakes on boorish behavior as soon as it shows up is a kindness to the abusers.
It's too bad they weren't stopped earlier in their careers. I think there was always a part of the population that could treat people badly and get away with it because of status or power and when someone reached that state it probably appeared that they were expected to treat others exploitativelty.
But, think of the costs: the miserable family life, the cowed assistants and fearful coworkers and associated with thwarted and stunted careers. And the damage of gratitutous flattery received as a way to parry the negative behavior which only serves to reinforce the bad behavior.
These people will in turn be taken advantage of and end their lives in misery, alone and friendless, still thinking they are important one in any situation.
Stop this new, correct the course and mitigate the damage before it is too late for them and their victims.
For many of the older men affected by the #metoo movement it will be too late. I have little pity for them.
For their victims, a life of thwarted opportunity demands restitution and we should make sure that happens.
9
It would be more obvious that a lot of the "leaders" of social media "movements" were populists if the public had clearer definitions for propaganda, for agitprop, for the dynamics of creating an us versus them movements. But they won't, because unlike twenty years ago, when advertising supported only the print and broadcast media, advertising now supports an enormous part of the American economy. Young people cultivate their "brand" which is supposed to make everyone an entrepreneur. But just like when employees were encouraged to become "stakeholders" as if they were mini-CEOs and investors when that was really a loyalty oath before firing, becoming a brand makes you a product, not a start-up. And "social networks" as they are conceived online, are anything but real social networks, they are gossip chains of infinite spatial and temporal extent.
That's obvious when Facebook's buying and selling members of its "social network" becomes rigging an election, or precipitates an ethnic cleansing. It should also be obvious when a "movement" is generated out of whole cloth on Twitter, and holds sway over careers and lives and thinks of itself as "alternative justice." Of course the people adjudicated don't think its fair. Neither would you if you were in the cross hairs of internet populists. Michelle Goldberg was elected by no one, appointed by no one, and makes up the "law" as she goes along. It isn't up to her to decide punishments for transgressors of Twitter populism.
7
@ondelette
As far as i know Ms Goldberg has not meted out punishments other than to write columns about sexual harassment (and other topics). She has not to my knowledge, made up any laws on the books.
She writes opinion pieces, quite well in my opinion. And in this one she is spot on.
It is difficult to determine if you are suggesting that the MeToo ""movement" is generated out of whole cloth on Twitter", but it certainly seems so. I can't imagine many more less informed views than that. It has been generated out of the fact that many, many men have been sexually assaulting and harassing women for a very long time with no consequences.
Stop distracting from the real story and the truth. Don't blame twitter or social media, don't blame anything other than the assaulters and harassers.
4
Thank you for this important article, Michelle.
Part of a healthy and meaningful rehabilitation process must include an acknowledgement of one’s actions and their impact on the women in the workplace. Hockenberrt’s focus on his own suffering is part of his problem. He needs to learn humility and respect for others.
18
Yes. It's not about getting rid of, it's about learning to live with. Women have had to live with and reckon with this behavior from men for, well, forever. Men will - finally, hopefully - have to live with and reckon with the consequences of their behavior for, well, longer than nine months. I find myself having to will myself to not feel sorry for these men. Is that learned gender behavior or compassion? It's helpful when I think of what I, and nearly every other woman I know, have had to deal with for our entire lives.
19
What Hockenberry, Louis CK, etc don’t understand is that MeToo isn’t about them, per se. Hockenberry’s effort to find the language to describe what happened to him — in itself telling — is part of a larger social effort to define the structure of consent. Despite what it must feel like for Mr Hockenberry, he’s not the target. He’s the model. The targets are young men and women who are starting out in careers and relationships of all kinds.
Hockenberry’s choice of texts is interesting because both Dworkin and Nabokov are writing about women’s power via their sexuality (at least in the instances Hockenberry mentions). Hockenberry viewed the women who accused him through a sexual, or at least romantic, filter when those women were just trying to get their jobs done. The women wanted, in that context, to be considered as smart, productive, and capable, not cute and sexy. As I’ve heard women say before, they’re reduced to their parts and it’s demeaning.
I have no doubt that Hockenberry respects women’s capabilities, but he also found them alluring and didn’t understand enough about the person and the context to keep his emotions under control. His behavior and the consequences, though, can be instructive.
I’d like to see Hockenberry look forward and not back into his past for resolution. I’d also like MeToo to be a guide for future powerful men and women so they can understand how to navigate the worlds they work and live in.
160
What bother me most is that so many careers, especially Franken's, have been ruined by accusations from anonymous women. How are we to know the truth if the won't come forward and say their names and stay the offenses. Al Franken, one of the most important voices in the Senate in defense of women's rights, was railroaded by Gillebrand on her high horse by largely "anonymous" accusations. Either these accusations should be made clear and public, or Franken should return to politics where he belongs.
259
@Robert Goolrick I'm really bothered that so many careers, of the victims, have been sidelined or sabotaged by harassment.
28
@Robert Goolrick
No, they don't need to be made clear or public. It is not the victim's responsibility to convince you. If the allegations are false the Al Franken can sue for libel.
9
Al Franken admitted guilt and apologized to the victims. He knew exactly who they were, they weren’t anonymous to him.
4
If Hockenberry repeatedly cited trauma visited upon his children resulting from his downfall, one wonders if he sat them down at some point to talk to them about why he got into trouble, and taking responsibility, and about treating others with respect at all times. It seems like a good opportunity for a teaching moment, especially for sons.
446
One also wonders whether he regrets not having considered his kids before he perpetrated his misdeeds.
4
HE has visited this trauma upon his children.
4
@Ralph Averill i agree. The best thing this man could do is own up to his behavior to his kids. Let them know he is not the victim, he was the perpetrator. And then demonstrate how and why he is going to change all of that. (Although it is a different level of the egregious, I thought the only way O J Simpson could have saved his kids from the generational effect of his personality problems would be to own it all, and spend the rest of his life helping men with anger issues and related behaviors. He apparently didn't do that, I am sorry for his children and for Mr. Hockenberry's
1
I watched the Bill Maher show that night when he championed Al Franken and insinuated that Al’s behavior basically didn’t count. Bill Maher often times crosses the line to favor his views. I cheered when you pushed back. Not one of these accusers have spent their time in reflection but rather have engineered action plans to come back. Perhaps with Al Franken’s skill for policy he could spend some time working with victims of sexual harassment and put the existing policies into the public view. He should be the voice of the accused and educate men and all of America that any degree of sexual harassment is wrong even if you are a liberal.
226
@whs I watched it too and I thought Maher was very rude to Ms. Goldberg. She might have been "out of place" by speaking up during his "New Rules" piece but the way he shut her down was awful.
2
Great piece, Michelle. From here it appears that the contrast is between you having basic empathy for some of the lesser "Schmoes" and their incapacity to demonstrate as much for those they have made uncomfortable or offended.
Some people get out of their childhood homes and education with no idea that other people can feel embarrassment or social pain. They are mostly men, not all sociopaths, but all capable of playing one on your street or in your office.
Thanks,
John
2
Company codes of conduct regarding sexual harassment have been around for decades. It's not like their premises are foreign concepts to the bad actors who have been outed. All that really seems to have changed is the level of their enforcement. The reason I don't feel sorry for the perpetrators who've had their careers damaged is that they could have avoided their current circumstances if they'd only behaved professionally.
Besides, many, if not most of the perpetrators are married, or at least have partners. It's not as if the harassers who've exploited their relative power have only abused one woman: They've also deceived their spouses. So even in the remote possibility some of the #MeToo men were unaware of how unethical their behavior was towards their female subordinates, they were still knowingly acting immorally. This is not complicated to figure out.
1
I am an unabashed fan of Al Franken, and I sorely miss him on my team. Yet I admit that the USO tour picture was offensive. While I have read that the whole thing was photoshopped, still it remains a boorish joke, which the right-wing victim has exploited. But the charges of groping are much less credible. To my knowledge, Franken admitted to none of these accusations, most of which were anonymous, and when not, he didn’t know who the women were. But more to the point, many of these women claimed that the groping happened while they were having their picture taken with him, so where are the pictures? I’ve never seen one. It all smacks of what happened to ACORN and to the faked film about Planned Parenthood. And it is a terrible loss. I wish he had fought it more.
5
@Jane Chew
Eight women have told of negative experience with Al Franken. Eight.
The photo with Leeann Tweeden may have been just a stupid prank. However, seven other women - who don't know each other and were not with Franken at the same time - have claimed he touched them without their consent. Yes, while posing for a photo with him that the women asked for.
I ask you; throughout your lifetime, have you been able to pose for photos with people you don't know - or do know - without grabbing their butts? Have you had to think about whether or not you should grab their butts as you posed for the photo? Did you think having a photo taken with someone was a great opportunity to grab their butts?
I am 58 years old. I have never, ever in my life grabbed someone's butt while having a photo taken. It never even crossed my mind.
Why do you presume these women are lying? FYI, most states dropped the corroboration requirement for filing a report of sexual assault decades ago.
1 in 4 American women alive today will experience sexual assault in her lifetime. You know women who have been sexually assaulted, including molested. They just haven't told you. Apparently, you wouldn't believe them unless they showed you a photo of it happening. Shame on you.
1
It seems to me that people are inclined to simplify situations that are not simple. I believe that we could use some perspective here.
Those men who used their position to sexually harass women should be forced to resign and, when appropriate, to face legal action. Let the system do its job.
Those men who behaved inappropriately should be ostracized until they show real contrition and possibly restitution. After that, they can resume their places in society.
Those men who claim innocence should have the opportunity to defend themselves and have their side heard. We are still a country that believes a person is innocent until proven guilty.
I think#MeToo would get more support if the movement allowed for some distinctions. One size does not fit all.
8
Lest it be buried under Bill Maher's "bro-ism," Senator Franken did apologize, emphasizing what several of the comments here have said, that it's not merely that rash and foolish actions warrant rebuke, but the mindset and cultural context that seemed to make it okay needs to be examined and deplored. And his apology was promulgated by many news sources, in plain view. For a healthy, caring society, men must evince some sensitivity and understanding of why groping and coercion are infuriating, and why punishment is warranted; but we must also value their apologies when we have them. They do matter.
https://www.politico.com/story/2017/11/16/full-text-al-franken-apologize...
4
It might be hard for men to see sexual attention as suffering because, for them, it probably wouldn’t be. There are of course appalling criminal cases of sexual violence, but short of that there is an enormous gray area that ranges from “interested” to “cheeky” to “persuasive”. Ask many women how they would want a man to act and “assertive” or “aggressive” would be on the list. Sexual attention is itself an aphrodisiac. Obviously.
The MeToo movement consists, firstly, of pretending that the vast gray area between chastity and crime is actually all crime; and secondly, of “social justice”. The first is living on a different planet. The second is simply a kangaroo court.
3
Maher defended Franken in the wrong way. I want Franken back because he a politician I admire and because he is a mensch. I would be proud to work with him, have him in my family, or have him in my home. His liberal politics supported by research and reality are right up my alley.
Bill Maher gets carried away from time to time. Is it the audience's applause? Is it his own ego? I don't know, but his program is one I enjoy. He supports causes I believe in. Don't let his lack of reason color your support of him
8
We are less than a year into one of the most important sociopolitical movements of our lifetimes: ending sexual violence.
It's been 50 years since the first laws and public discourse about workplace harassment, acquaintance and date rape, spousal rape. That's how long it took to get HERE.
Don't let people off the hook at the *start*. Imagine where we'd be if Civil Rights leaders, abolitionists, or suffragists did the same. After all, those who opposed those efforts were "disoriented" as well.
21
@JNS this is the problem, one equating boorish behavior with sexual violence. This will get folks to support you.
@JNS We would be here earlier but Bill Clinton came along with his liberal apologists and set back workplace conduct 25 years.
I was appalled but not surprised by Bill Maher's conduct on Real Time last week. When interrupted by men during his "New Rules" segment, I've seen him shake his head in annoyance or playfully reach out a hand, but when a woman had the audacity to interrupt him, she was met with a public scolding. Is it any surprise he disparaged the women who spoke out about Franken (who I would also like to see back in politics)? Maher's behavior is the perfect example of the systemic misogyny that pervades our society. I'm grateful that Michelle Goldberg has this platform to make her point (as I knew she would).
7
“Only one of my accusers reached out or responded to my heartfelt queries,” he writes. (Why would they?)
Why would they? Possibly because Hockenberry had relationships with the women,and part of having a relationship is telling someone directly when they have hurt you.
The transgressions Hockenberry committed were private and personal, and most likely he was not aware that he was transgressing. After all, isn't that what it means to say that the rules changed? It actually might have helped Hockenberry to hear directly from women what it felt like to be on the other end of his behavior, how his propositions, etc. were transgressive, and why they didn't speak up at the time (or did speak up but were squelched). Then maybe he'd understand what he had done wrong, what it is like to go through life feeling like you are prey, and even be able to express this understanding to them--and to the public in a less maddening and confused (and pathetic) essay than the one in Harper's.
2
Sure, it might have helped him, but why should it be a victim’s job to educate her victimizer about why what he did was wrong? She should be allowed to move on with her life in whatever way works best for her. She owes her victimizer nothing.
3
Perspective please. As a single male I have frequently awoken in the middle of the night to find unwelcome naked females in my bed. I never thought of complaining about harassment to anyone other than the female involved.
1
@ndbza You're in your bed, and unexpected women are coming into your house, getting undressed, and climbing in? Are you sure you're not just playing The Sims?
But look, to take it seriously, that's NOT remotely appropriate on their part either. It's gross behavior. If my daughter did something like that to a guy without good reason to think he WANTED her there, I would be horrified. I would sit her down and explain to her that you can't treat other people like props in your own life and that good sex can only happen when everyone involved is on board.
But the difference between gross behavior and harassment is the power the harasser has on your life. Are any of those women someone who can affect your professional success? Do they have the power to threaten you? Do you feel like you can't say no? After you do say no, do they keep coming at you over and over? If you tell people about it, do they call you a liar and tell you that you should just put up with their behavior?
That's what makes the difference.
4
@ndbza
Was this bed in your workplace? And did these women have control over your career? Please! You are embarrassing yourself.
1
I assume your bed isn’t in your place of work. Perhaps you should try locking your doors.
1
Actually, like most on the left, the writer DOES want to impose the kind of Maoist thought control she describes in her last paragraph. It's not enough to destroy careers and subject offenders to global public ridicule, the left wants to control EVERYONE'S private thoughts and feelings, whether on male female relations, economics, race relations, television programming, etc. The right to one's own personal preferences is definitely under attack.
2
Where are the columns about people who feel shame for having
-willingly "slept their way to the top," taking jobs from other more deserving and less unscrupulous employees?
-succumbed to siren calls of greed-driven lawyers and pursued blackmail hushmoney lawsuits based on doubtful claims of personal trauma?
-jumped on band wagons with embellished or even fabricated stories that were nonetheless completely believed ?
-rushed to publish accusations without fully double-checking them, thus unfairly ruining careers of the (falsely) accused?
Are we supposed to believe that none of these things ever happen?
When can we see a column on the real underlying process that has been occurring here?
1. A new technology (such movies) spawns a giant industry.
2. Men working at senior positions in that industry discover that it is an easy way to meet very friendly young attractive women.
3. Not satisfied with that perk, they going on to systematically callously and shamefully abuse their positions of power at the expense of some of those women.
4. Later, another new technology (internet) makes it much easier than ever before to (finally) expose such abuse.
5. Not satisfied with that new revelatory capacity, many people go on to systematically abuse it by engaging in rumor-mongering, character assassination, guilt by association; in short embracing McCarthyist witch hunting.
9
I have not seen that recent segment on Bill Maher’s show so I can’t speak to what either he or you said during his “last rule” (I’m assuming). I CAN speak to the fact that I followed the accusations that came up re Senator Al Franken from beginning to end, & the very first thing thing that Franken did was one, apologize for (what he apparently considered to be) comedic moments before, during, after their routine & two, ask for the allegation to be investigated by the ethics committee.
The allegations that followed were not allegations that Franken said or agreed occurred. He again said that he wished for the matter to be investigated by the ethics committee— to get due process, as it were — & denied what he was accused of having done. He said specifically that he was surrounded by hundreds or thousands of people & it would be “political suicide” (or some such quote) to have done what the women alleged. The mere fact that the number of women grew in size did not automatically mean that he was guilty by reason of 11 women coming forward.
As far as I am aware, apart from that first comedy incident, other than a “he said, she said” basis, there is no evidence available to corraberate these women’s stories. OTOH, Franken appeared to have some form of exculpatory evidence or something to say regarding the allegations beyond their mere sayso.
Why should Franken have to apologize or show remorse for behavior that he says did not occur? Give him his due process & go from there.
12
Men aren't the problem and feminism isn't the answer.
The problem is patriarchy. Feminism is just an adaptation to that way of life.
The answer is... (you say it).
2
I've spent some time observing baboons at the zoo, where females are frequently grabbed and used by the males. I know that our closest cousins, the chimps, do the same. Nature is a force, it's often NOT pretty, and is it EVEN possible to eradicate or change this behavior among humans? Seems like all religions, historically, have required that women submit to the male.
I saw Bill Maher's response to you on his show....he was the mean, male school teacher who told the inferior female student to shut up and stay in her place. This stuff is so much part of the genetic psyche. Tonight he will probably be an ally for women, sort of. And so it goes. Sometimes I think we're making changes for the better, but it's sure a rough and rocky road.
1
It's complicated, as Ms. Goldberg's column makes rather clear. I, too, greatly miss Al Franken. He resigned his Senate seat voluntarily.
I will never miss Donald Trump. Sadly, he will never resign voluntarily even though his infractions against humanity outstrip Franken's by a number too large to imagine in the worst of nightmares.
5
Oh, Michelle, you just had to do it, didn’t you? Bill Maher was annoyed because you interrupted his New Rules segment, which is a sort of monologue (and usually the best part of the show). You were annoyed in turn so you just had to make a dig in your usually terrific column. Saw this coming a mile away. Wish you would have just left things alone. Bill, even if you disagree with him about his feelings regarding his fellow comedian Al Franken, is one of the good guys as far as women’s rights are concerned.
3
Much as I detest the behavior of the accused, it's also sad but
worth noting that it's been regimen for so long that I doubt many of the wrong doers were even aware of their culpability. Conversely,
women have been passive for so long that it's been unusual when as wronged individuals they stand up, especially on a legal basis.
Instead what we have is an extra-legal witch hunt that in its own
way isn't dissimilar to others we've known from Salem thru
McCarthy. In its own way this is Maoist too. It takes real guts
to stand alone, and for the strong and successful to act otherwise
is almost as destructive as the disgraceful conduct of their
aggressors. So look at how much we've all lost, both as men
and women from the loss of some of our most contributory
cultural leaders, this despite their human -and societal- flaw.
2
To clarify the issue, we need to ask straight men how they (would) feel when a gay guy does to them what they do to women.
It's EXACTLY the same. Someone in whom you're not remotely interested, is coming on to you. And if it involves grabbing or insisting, it's that much worse.
You see, what they're missing is that they're just not attractive. Sometimes they're actively repulsive.
And that's not an idea that they can bear to consider.
8
@Marion Gropen
It is sociopathic behavior. It is unacceptable, regardless of whether the person doing it is attractive or not.
Non-consensual touching is illegal. We are hired by a business to do a job. We are not hired to flirt, make sexual or otherwise offensive or off-color jokes to co-workers, to touch co-workers, or to have sex with co-workers. None of these actions are required or expected to do the work of the job we are being paid for. Whether or not the person engaging in harassment or otherwise illegal behavior is physically attractive is irrelevant.
You're feeding right into Trump's excuse to dismiss and disqualify the many women who have reported that he sexually assaulted them when he claimed that they were too ugly for him to assault.
You do understand the source for Bill Maher's critical remarks about Al Franken's accusers, right?
His initial accuser, Leeann Tweeden, was a Fox News contributor who never complained about anything Al Franken did until he became so popular as a Senate committee questioner that people began talking about a presidential run -- eleven years after the alleged "inappropriate behavior" occurred. There is ample indication that her story was trumped up (pun only partially intended) by Roger Stone not to right any wrong but to kneecap Mr. Franken's career.
I am sorry, but a story as embellished as hers deserves to have its source harshly questioned.
And Kirsten Gillibrand's role in this has made it so I will NEVER support her candidacy for anything forever in her life. I have never voted Republican at any level of jurisdiction and never regretted any vote I ever cast, but if she becones the Democratic nominee in any race in which I am eligible to cast a vote, I will write in someone more reasonable and less vicious.
17
Seeing themselves as victims, Mr. Hockenberry and other #MeToo castoffs, seem to be willfully blind to their transgressions. What transgressions?
Inappropriately touching a woman, doing so without permission, propositioning a woman with real or implied threats of retaliation, forcibly taking physical advantage, subjecting a woman to demeaning or lewd language...these are social transgressions. They are violations of basic human decency in which the perpetrator uses a position of power to take advantage of a less powerful person, female or male.
The #MeToo castoffs are pariahs outside of decent society because they placed themselves there by their behavior. A healthy society is where people treat each other by the golden rule, not by taking advantage of the vulnerable.
Mr. Hockenberry and other #MeToo castoffs can wallow in self-pity or seek redemption. Mr. Hockenberry should admit to his family what he did. Acknowledge that he took advantage of others and that it was wrong. Reach out to HIS victims, confess his transgressions, offer restitution, ask their forgiveness.
Finally Mr. Hockenberry must ask for societal forgiveness. He can seek reentry into decent society but must atone for his behavior. He must devote a good amount of his time to publicly speaking out about the transgressions he committed, teaching others about the sin of taking advantage of others, making his behavior and suffering a lesson for others. This is his path to forgiveness and reentry into society.
6
"I believe the women" is a meme. We are told that memes are to ideas like genes are to living organisms; they contain the building blocks to a fully formed idea. You might call them "truisms", like "motherhood is good". However, social services will take children away from mothers determined to be unfit or even dangerous every year far greater than the number being currently held by ICE detention, that many of us (not all) are so exercised about today. So, not all motherhood is "good", is it? My point is, what you "believe" is what "you" believe and not a proven fact. I guess if you intend to publicly shame an accused person,without the benefit of processed inquiry is what you want to do, then go ahead and do that, but you and your like believers do not constitute an official board of inquiry; you are simply a mob.
11
@tdom
Yeah, but, we're a mob consisting of roughly half the human population on earth.
Deal with it.
1
@tdom
And that's called "the tyranny of the majority". Like "we're a majority white country; deal with it"
How about celebration of decency.The vocal and courageous women brought us the # ME TOO movement .now we are shocked and grieved by new revelations of shocking behavior in the Catholic Church.We need decent , empathetic leaders in every endeavor and should demand it even though our voices are not loud or important.In November we can ask,”What can you do for your nation”. And vote accordingly.
9
There is no evidence that Franken did anything wrong at all. First, he was accused of sexually groping a woman during a comedy tour and second, he is accused of grabbing another woman at a public event in Minnesota. In both instances, he allowed himself to be photographed. Most men who sexually harass women don't voluntarily record the event. Indeed they try to harass in private so their accusers have no proof. It's much more plausible that he and the "victim" were trying to be funny (they are comedians, after all), then that he was actually sexually assaulting her.
Franken shouldn't have resigned and you, Gillibrand and others shouldn't have asked him to resign without proof that he did anything wrong. Since his resignation, no proof has surfaced.
I hope one day you are falsely accused and convicted without evidence. Maybe then you will be more careful when you make unjust claims.
3
Yaaas Michelle!
I watched that episode of Real Time and like you, but I’m sure to a lesser degree, felt awkward about Bill Maher’s dismissive attitude toward Al Franken’s accusers. I love Franken, and think that he would be able to go toe to toe with Trump, but facts are facts. And, you can’t negate those facts just because you like someone’s politics. That’s what Trump supporters have done, and dare I say Bill Clinton supporters did with him. I was 12 years old when the Lewinsky scandal came out, and I remember not believing her because my family loved Bill Clinton. I remember watching the Today Show when Hillary Clinton said “This is a right-winged conspiracy against my husband.” My 12 year old self I believed her, because she was so passionate and couldn’t fathom the idea of Clinton doing this. Neither could I. I recently went to Monticello in Charlottesville and had the same issue, “How could a man I admire like Thomas Jefferson engage in the institution of slavery and essentially rape Sally Hemings (her lack of freedom giving her no consent).” The newly installed Sally Hemings exhibit paled in comparison to the honor bestowed on Jefferson. The sad thing is that usually these women, if they decided to enter into an affair or if they were forced, are usually sentenced to a life on history’s fringes, while the more famous man is given the benefit of the doubt. I say no more.
10
Accusations are not 'facts' no matter what one wants to believe.. that was Maher's point.
2
Franken was railroaded, plain and simple. Whether it was political expediency or he was simply caught up in the reaction of the moment. His primary accuser was a Republican operative and Fox News contributor. The few others came forth with bizarre unsubstantiated stories. Rather than hold an inquiry to determine the truth of what happened, his colleagues threw him to the wolves.
5
I saw the RT show in which you interrupted Bill Maher during his New Rules segment. You were rude and he had a right to call you out on it.
Although I was not impressed with the context of Maher's words re calling on Franken to re enter the political fray, I very much agreed with the sentiment. And let me say forcefully - I don't believe or respect ANY of his accusers. None. From Leeann Tweeden down to the 'waist grabber during a photo op' they shamed themselves in their venal slander of an honest and innocent man. They destroyed the presence and voice of an exceptional Senator who was very much needed ( and is irreplaceable) in these perilous times, not to mention doing great harm to him and Franny personally. In this case it is not just his villainous accusers who owe this man a HUGE apology, but Kirsten Gillibrand and her band of traitors: Harris, Bernie, Booker et. al. When the truth comes out one day and if this is proved to be a political hit by a Republican 'dirty tricks' squad, my hope is all these people will be publicly shamed - as they so richly deserve to be.
That said (Whew!), ever since then I have found it hard not to be suspicious of unvetted accusations and of the motivations and said 'damage to' these 'victims'. Harsh perhaps. But death in the court of public opinion is mob rule, and I am never going to sign on to that. Ever.
21
Things sure have changed since I was a teenager in the 1950s. The girls despised the sort of boy they called a “straight arrow” meaning one who takes you on a date and doesn’t make advances.
1
@PL
In the 1950's here in the U.S., the boys who tried to grope us on a date was known by the name "Hands" throughout the school. Went to the prom alone or with the town bad girl.
You're making things up.
3
I don't watch television, but like a vegetarian out visiting, I go along with my hosts. They often had their televisions turned to Stewart and Mahr. So I watched and laughed along politely. I also watched the watchers. Men find this humor hilarious. Women, not so much. Stewart is replaced by a much better person while Bill Mahr remains the most illiberal liberal. They are brilliant really. But humor that is dependent on sarcasm, insults and put downs, lacks nuance and depth and is only funny to others who connect with those traits. To expect Mahr, of all people, to be sympathetic to victims of sexual abuse is to expect blood out of a turnip, but he is very useful as an illustration of how not to be. Thank you Ms Goldberg for another thoughtful insightful article into contemporary culture. If one were to illustrate how insensitive and crude people can be, you choose the right man.
3
I don’t feel sorry for them. I find this whole routine of “Okay, I said the appropriate words, or what I felt was appropriate, and sat in the corner for five minutes so now I’m demanding to go play like I always have” sad and repulsive. I’ve yet to see any of these guys sg]how that they have learned anything. It’s all about them because the entitlement that allowed them to feel it was okay to do what they did is still firmly in place. So my sympathy is 100 % for the people they harassed and whose careers were sabotaged.
5
Well written and well expressed.
Thank you.
3
Good for you! The host of the show you were on is a bit of a bully himself, eh? I tried to watch his "documentary" about religion and, as an atheist-lapsed-Catholic anarchist, I was frankly appalled by his behavior, like a Michael Moore without the will to see the good in others. The reaction to this movement to make sure we treat each other with dignity and respect cannot be ignored or downplayed or misrepresented. Thank you for fighting the good fight---and for "interrupting" him (what is he, Stalin?) on his own show---love it!
18
@Domenick Earlier in the program, Maher interviewed Jack Bryan, the director of the documentary "Active Measures." The conversation included a brief discussion about Trump's casino failures in which Maher said "even Indians" can't screw up a casino. I was gobsmacked. Maher, a hero of mine (to this point), uttering a vile slur?? I've read nothing about this, not a news story, not a column. Did I imagine this? If not, why the pass?
2
I just want to say I was outraged by the way Bill Maher spoke to you on his show last week when you made a comment during his monologue defending his buddy Al Franklin. He should have responded with humor — after all he is a comedian. Instead he revealed his own sexism by turning hostile. It made me sick how he couldn’t stand being interrupted and I don’t think he would have reacted that way if you were a man.
7
@Debbie Cooper
He Would have.
There are two problems here: Patriarchy and Equality.
Patriarchy by its very nature of being insists the top. Regardless of whatever else any society uses for stratifying, at the top will always be a man at every sector. That's a problem because power does corrupt some people and in a system of hierarchy where a person earns promotion based upon one physical feature they've had since the embryonic stage, then corruption is nearly a sure feature of their standing.
Equality begins when someone being numbered amount the substandard asks 'Why?' and refuses to hear the response 'It is just the way it is'. Then the question answers itself and the systems that are in place begin to crack.
Every person, regardless of their gender, color, nationality, or religious convictions, must be judged on their own merits. Equality demands it.
I do feel a bit sorry for the guys born from the 1960 on are feeling dispossessed of their 'entitlement' that patriarchy committed to them. It must feel very much like their victims felt when they were treated as a disposable commodity and not a person. I know that I didn't much like being a disposable commodity. But forgiveness? Please take that up with your soul or your god. You are equal now. Everyone must earn their own respect and in order to maintain that respect they can not treat any other human as a piece of trash.
11
As you probably know we are in the Jewish religious period called "Teshuvah" or repentance culminating with the High Holiday of Yom Kippur. Teshuvah reminds us of what all these men have not done--repent, and repent in public and make some restoration. What we have instead is a cry of "Poor me, woe that I am suffering." Until we all acknowledge our transgressions by working through the defensiveness and denial so epitomized in an almost Biblical way by Donald Trump's refusal to acknowledge the deaths in Puerto Rico, we have not repented, recanted, reformed, and renewed ourselves to warrant support and trust. This is not shame, but self-awareness and growth essential to move beyond ourselves to see how we have hurt, humiliated, and harassed others. That is the true shame; that we cannot confront our selves whether it is the Roman Catholic Church, Donald Trump, John Hockenberry, Asia Argento or even you and me,too.
1
It is no longer socially acceptable for men in high-visibility positions to sexually harass women. Period. No one is so talented, brilliant or economically valuable that they are given a free pass to foist unwanted sexual attentions on to others. As for due process: none of these men who were "tried in the media" are sitting in jail cells. They lost their jobs because they embarrassed their employers. There are lots of talented people in the world without their attitudes of entitlement who can be hired to replace them. Some of these people are women.
9
It borders on tautology but if these people recognized what they did was wrong, they wouldn't have done it in the first place or continued to do it for years. Isn't the first step admitting you have a problem (or that you are wrong)? Since Hockenberry can't seem to bring himself to take responsibility, he's not going to get better or absolved.
16
@Ted
So, what kind of conversion therapy do you recommend?
What bad men dismiss out of hand is that prior to #Metoo, their abusive behavior, right to harassment and sexual assaults were common behavior, validated by the actions of many, many men in power. Consider the evidence. This aberrant behavior was the norm and if you were rich and powerful, like Donald Trump, you could do anything to a woman and get away with it. Again, the exposure of these many rich and powerful prove the point: it was/is the norm. These are the values of misogynists who have contempt for others and therefore feel compelled to abuse the innocent.
Forgiveness is a good thing. But first there must be punishment for the crime to bring accountability back into society. Debasing women cannot go without punishment. Through punishment there is the possibility for correcting behavior: punishment to equal to the crime's damage. Sadly these crimes were done with so much ease compared to their profound damage to innocents. Until men know they should not and cannot behave aberrantly towards women, things won't change. This is basic to the war of the sexes.
There was no thought among these monsters about how they ruined women's lives forever. There can be no sympathy for the rich men who lose everything. They behaved as they did because of riches and power and will. If you let them back in, then there is no real punishment, no example, no threat to other men. Louis C.K., for example, showed everyone he cares only for himself. No accountability in mind.
Don't stop.
6
My experience is that men really do not understand why what they have done is wrong. I think it's because they convince themselves at the time of the harassment that the women would be flattered by it. One man I finally confronted after his years of relentless comments finally culminated in touching when he opened my jacket only seemed to "get it" when I told him his behavior would be like me reaching into his wallet every time I saw him and helping myself to $50, that he'd think I was nuts, criminal, and classless and would likely never have anything to do with me again. But, when Les Moonves walks away with $120 million (and the women only walked away with a lot of stress), and when Donald Trump becomes president despite an admission of serial sexual assault, while Bill Clinton is impeached for fibbing about a consensual affair, the issue remains merely political and is, in and of itself, not taken seriously at all. They just do not get it.
9
Respectfully, get over the Bill Maher segment. He is a comedian and he makes fun of everything and everybody. And I had not known that one of the accusers had such a cozy relationship with Fox News and pro-Trump forces.
13
The 'Me Too' movement, with the encouragement of Ms Goldberg, coloured outside the lines with Al Franken by unquestioningly accepting the word of a highly biased Fox news contributor and hounding my Franken from office. From beginning to end, a political hit job (before the accusations emerged Roger Stone, casually mentioned it was Franken's 'turn in the barrel') Mr Maher's point was that women, the disadvantaged, and all those who don't receive a fair shake in society lost a powerful voice in the senate - and for what?
5
I am the husband of a woman sexually assaulted by a powerful man and until retirement I directed a very large academic program that made me a powerful man on campus. The last several years have revealed to us all patterns of behavior at once shocking and criminal by men suffering pathologies whereby they must have denied having mothers, sisters, wives, daughters, and even grandmothers. Who raised these predators, I have asked myself many times. Now that the predator attacked the mother of my child I am furious rather than shocked and of course being a protective male can only wonder what will happen if I see the criminal in a courtroom. Defenders of this behavior like Maher and MacDonald have never seen its effects up close. My wife is afraid to be out in the world unless I drive her door to door, and she suffers insomnia and headaches and overeats to calm herself until she is nauseated. She’s irritable, though she has never been an easy dinner date, incapable of innocuous chitchat thirty years ago. She has a therapist and medicates. I do too but mine is scotch and only during the cocktail hour. But we are forced to evaluate our lives and that has involved many themes including leaving the country for a summer home in the Aegean that we would make permanent since it’s my wife’s birthplace. If the predators want redemption let them embark on Good Works. Louis. CK is Puerto Rican and can surely think of something more redemptive than more idiotic comedy about being fat and ugly
29
Seriously!
When will we finally exhaust that topic?????
Is there nothing else to write about that may be a little more vital?
Like the survival of the planet in the face of continuous attacks of the administration on curtailing greenhouse gas emissions and climate change denial?
Once the planet is cooked, no one will care about #MeToo anymore, whether men or women.
Because we will all be dead or dying.
Not to trivialize the issue, merely putting it into a little perspective. And right now, I think this topic has had enough coverage and by now I see this as a totally unnecessary distraction from arguably much more vital issues.
@Kara Ben Nemsi
Many of us can concern ourselves with sexual harassment and global warming and even other topics at the same time. It really isn't too hard.
2
How long will the witch hunt last? The male behaviors now
condemned have long been warp and woof of our society,
and while I don't excuse them most of these fellas were probably
unaware of just how badly they acted. Nor can I excuse the women, especially those who were strong and well placed, who passively accepted it, that is, until in their own way they could act like a mob of sorts rather than having the guts to act for themselves as individuals...which takes real guts! It's here
that the "Maoism" mentioned in the article really applies.
And the worst tragedy of all is what we've lost, both men and women, in our own Salemite fashion from having destroyed
the great things many of these people imparted that had
genuinely enriched our lives.
2
So at least you recognize there was some harm being done.
But, goodness! they ran amok trampling on people around them and when they're caught up short we should excuse them based on biological imperative?
What about that thing called civilization?
4
I also watched the Bill Maher episode, and was not happy with his ending monologue.
I was also saddened by the dismissal of Al Franken. "Shenanigans" don't always equate to behavior than cannot be corrected. There is a distinction between correctable behavior, and pathological behavior.
What isn't well understood by men, or women, is the way that sexism wraps around women their whole lives. Religion is generally a patriarchy. The toys and clothes girls and boys are given, how they play, how their parents and society distinguish them all send a message of master/servant.
I think this is part of #MeToo. Half of the population is being treated as second class. It's an awakening where women are saying that they have had enough.
6
This is the world we live in now. Say (or do) whatever you want, say “I’m sorry”, move on, repeat. This allows for never having to use any self-control mechanisms on ourselves which we all know are just such a drag. Narcissism 101.
3
Well, great. I'm actually afraid to say anything. Good job.
5
@RICK MURRAY
That's a good thing. Sit back and listen. It's great when a man can admit he has nothing of value to add to a dialogue. May you continue to learn from smart women everywhere on this important topic.
5
piling on about the bill maher episode: yes, it was awkward and michelle should not have interrupted. i was also slightly bothered by bill's defense of al franken and totally in agreement with michelle's point of view. furthermore, there was irony in bill's curt dismissal of michelle's point and in how it echoed al franken (and others) continued disregard for the women they hurt. another great column, thank you michelle, please keep up the good fight!
27
This movement feels like an extremely privileged level of justice compared to the abysmal treatment of women across the globe. Women in different cultures, women in poverty must look at a lot of this and feel like they are living in another world entirely. They are trying to cope with rape, not being literally stoned or married off at 11. And people who equate this type of sexual misconduct with slavery should be ashamed of themselves for trying to steal other people's narrative. People with that history don't need your faux sanctimony.
It is no accident that so much of this movement happens around media and entertainment. It is a true bonfire of the vanities. There is no sense of proportion and mob justice tone is ripe for abuse and hypocrisy. I wonder if this would exist without social media and if it could be so effective in less fortunate corners of our society and world. A lot of this shaming and disgrace only works on people with something to lose. By all means establish new rules. New codes of conduct. Beef up HR. But can we also turn our attention to improving the lives of men and women abused far from the spotlight? Where the awful thing that happened was not just that I didn't get to make my film because I rejected some creeps advances.
Meanwhile, blessings to strong women. I wonder what would happen to a Weinstein trying his game on a female solider from Kobani.
5
@ygj
Get your point but abuse is abuse, regardless. Some perspective is warranted however.
Too bad he didn't take his children's feelings into consideration before he propositioned or behaved badly toward unwilling women. Just 'being able to get away with it' doesn't mean it wouldn't have come to the kid's attention eventually. What kind of messages(s) did he directly or indirectly send to his sons and/or daughters over the years? Would he want his daughters to just accept and enjoy it?
8
The response to think about yourself first, and sometimes only, is not confined to men, it seems to be embedded in human nature. Really, all of us have hurt someone at some point. When they speak up, even carefully, how often do we immediately go to their experience and think about how they feel? Not often that I've seen and only in an conducive environment. Otherwise SOP for all of us is denial, dismissal, negation. Everyone commenting has done the same, male or female, doesn't matter, I guarantee it. It's just in this situation the harm is so much greater and the inability to put ourselves in the skin of another so much starker.
So this is the point at which we have arrived: She feels "discombobulated by suddenly feeling the hand of a man she admires on her backside." A fair way from Harvey Weinstein, but the career goes out the window just the same.
Now the author admits that perhaps we should not be entirely indifferent to that outcome. But when some of the offenders talk about their plight, the actual issue is that they do not repeat their expressions of remorse. Yet again. The damage to the victims is all that we have been interested in for a long time, and if someone finally dares to bring up something else, perhaps he should just be able to say it and assume that we know all that has been said before.
1
Change can be difficult. It is probably difficult for some men (and impossible for those who are serious narcissists) to understand how, suddenly, they are not allowed to treat women as objects who exist mostly to serve them. These men do not understand or care what it is like for the women because, perhaps, they would be thrilled if a woman tried to touch them in an inappropriate way.
Now that women are able to speak out more without fear, the truth comes out: women want to be treated with respect and are not going to put up with anything less.
1
Transferring careers is not the same thing as losing an already existing career.
Either way, that’s besides the point.
Trial by social media is a terribly unsustainable way to run a society. Put the bad people in jail or get off their backs. It’s unfair to everyone, including the women, to not focus on the laws and evidence.
2
Oh, I'll say the stocks were an effective deterrent in Colonial times. This is about the same thing.
1
Nice article, Goldberg. We need to hear more voices like yours.
1
So many yeses to this. Thanks for writing it.
6