Thank you Dr Krugman for helping me find the words I have been looking for to explain why I say the GOP is a Russian political party not an American party. It helped that the Manafort trial was about Viktor Yanukovych who is charged with treason by the Ukraine and is now in Russia at Putin's side.
My great grand parents escaped the pogroms in Ukraine a century and a half ago. Russia was Russia before communism , during communism and post communism. One hundred fifty years ago Russia's aristocracy took everything to reward their elite with palaces and property that ordinary citizens were not allowed to even dream of. Ukraine saw poverty and hunger everywhere and it was the Jews , gypsies and other ethnic minorities that were blamed. After the revolution nothing changed the few stole everything and the ethnics were scapegoated for the hunger and poverty. When Russia sold Alaska to America the thirty pieces of silver were given to Russia's least needy.
Today's GOP blames the East Coast elites, ethnic minorities, racial minorities, liberals and government of the people for the decline of America and every possible perceived social ill while America's least needy see 120% of economic gain.
America's decline is the responsibility of the Russification of one of its political parties. In 1964 the GOP became the party of Russia and oligarchy, whether it be the prerevolution aristocrats, the post revolution autocracy or the oligarchs of post communism and post Yeltsin Russia.
29
takeaway for me:
99% of population could enjoy the govt healthcare programs and a secure but modest life
but
1% of the nation doesn't benefit, they may be reduced to millionaires. : (
47
I lived in Germany for 25 years. German law is based on humanism whereby there is a mutual respect of the individual for the state and of the state for the individual. The state can only survive if the individual citizens are well. The individual is more important than corperations - unlike the US where companies thrive at the cost of the individual.
71
Thanks Dr. K for writing about the alternate universe. Today's form of capitalism has failed us. There has to be a better way.
54
US government has one thing Denmark does not: Citizens United. This has codified and empowered Wall Street to run the federal government for the benefit of profiteers.
63
This is a bit of a "Where to begin?" situation.
I spend considerable time in Finland and visit Sweden as well. Absolutely right about the quality of life, education, healthcare, happiness, etc.
Another addition:
The absence of an overreaching legal system used as a tool to dissuade, bully and crush opponents/competition.
Many solid EU talents refuse to sign anything involving the US legal system, even a basic NDA, due to the US exposure.
For they know that the US system is no longer so much about Justice; but too often about who has the deeper pockets to out lawyer the other. They wisely prefer to not get involved.
And the start-up scene is thriving in these countries!
To equate Venezuela (been there too) with any Nordic country is an act that belongs in a stand-up routine. Just that funny... and that sad that people believe such muck.
The reality is that for most Americans, daily US quality of life is closer to Venezuela than Nordic countries.
Must be all that fair and balanced kool-aid.
84
My parents travelled to Scandinavia a few years ago and had a very pleasant time. Some Americans may not know this but many urban Scandinavians speak excellent English. My parents chatted with a variety of people in Copenhagen ranging from an elderly couple in a coffee shop to young people in the shops. Their general impression was people were friendly and happy with their lives. So, fellow Americans, do go visit: find out for yourselves and don't worry about language being a barrier.
33
When you’ll accept the same salary as a manual laborer, we can talk.
9
@Ed your opinion apparently isn't based on facts. Try going to Denmark and you'll have a more accurate view.
34
Americans, like citizens abroad would pay higher taxes if fair, not exploitive, with benefits proper to a democracy.
The GOP line dominates now---taxes are big bad govt confiscation. But they transfer the tax burden to the masses, while lowering taxes on the excess profits of the rich.
With this gross distortion, the incomes/assets of the wealthy keep increasing, as they extract productivity from the mass of citizens, then offshore/protect profits.
The campaign mega donors then SHARE their increased profits---not with workers as in past eras when unions were strong--- but with politicians we elect. This keeps political power flowing----away from us, up to the elites. This is the big US legalized corruption story today.
Our campaign finance system is abnormal for democracies. Media columnists keep safe from tackling it, lest they lose influence and prestige. The media profits from high priced campaign ads.
The top marginal rate with GOP Eisenhower was 91%. The govt financed history’s greatest infrastructure project ---our federal highway system across the land. The economic multiplier effects propelled the US into more jobs, prosperity and upward mobility---new suburbs, home and car buying, new shopping centers and schools, low cost college paid by adequate taxes., then paid back by grads' higher paying jobs.
Our media columnists need to shove this past in the faces of today's GOP and their sponsors. What do you say, PK?
32
What was once advocated/enacted by New Deal Democrats is now Socialism? This indicates how far Right political discussion has become since the inauguration of St. Ronald of Tampico.
FDR was called a Socialist, a Communist, a Fascist and a lot of other things not fit for a family newspaper for getting Social Security, minimum wage, labor rights, Depression relief, etc. enacted.
Harry Truman advocated universal health care as a continuation of the New Deal .
Democrats should be running on the FDR New Deal platform - what was once old is now new again.
58
Denmark like Venezuela? Venezuela, with massive inflation, hunger, unemployment, crime, scarcity of healthcare, human rights abuses, lack of free speech, lack of free press...that Venezuela?
T. R. thinks Denmark, land of robust middle class, easy access to social services, freedom of speech, freedom to pursue one's dreams as long as one respects the rights of others, happy, hippy Denmark...is comparable to Venezuela? T.R., please do a field trip.
29
Lest we forget that a prominent government party in Denmark has set itself on a harrowing path towards ghettoizing and punishing low-income, mostly Muslim, immigrants, which should be sharply condemned alongside any praise of the nation's social democratic policies: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/01/world/europe/denmark-immigrant-ghetto...
10
Paul didn't mention the Burqa ban the Danes just passed into law... and the requirement immigrant children get 30 hours of instruction per week in Danish values. I wonder what the Left would think of Trumpie proposed those 'democratic-socialist' measures.
18
Being more like Denmark's tax and spend socially responsible democracy would only slow down our race to the bottom and interfere with all the winning that is bound to be the result, so much so that we will all grow tired of it. Ding ding ding ding... Wait, I am tired of it already. Tired of this giant ten dollar per paycheck tax cut while at the same time some of my relatives have lost large chunks of their healthcare coverage. Tired of the same potholed highways that are so under repaired that they look like they conducted a dry run of Trump's military parade with tanks over them. And tired of all of my fellow winners disregarding the national do not call registry to sell me things I don't need in order to win even more.
27
Apples and oranges people. Let me guess, Denmark has a strict immigration policy. Can any American just walk into Denmark and become a citizen? No, of course not. They have their own wall. The USA is not like anyplace else. We are different and our solutions need to be different. Socialism is not the solution. Will everyone go to work in a socialist USA and give away most of their pay? I doubt it.
My great grandparents immigrated from Norway and Sweden and they were glad they left. In the USA you can become somebody all by yourself. So go full speed ahead capitalism - the world reaps the benefits.
13
@Carey Olson
Uh Sweden just brought in 900,000 refuges.
Some friction to be sure, they will assimilate.
And the Sweden of 2018 is quite different than the Sweden of 90 years ago.
33
The Problem with Foxites, they look world through the same filter. Wild eyed red baron capitalism a.k.a 19th century capitalism.
Today many capitalist hear this type of crticism, they roll their eyes ..
Simple question for Foxites never understand socialism.
What is the difference between Cuban socilaism and Venezuelan socialism?
Foxites thinks that they both evil socialism.
in fact Cuban socilaism is success story with right direction
Venezuelan Socialism is just a pseudonym , it is raw facism.
But foxites doesn't want to delve details, or do due diligence. they wnat to smear.
in this case Mr. Megan tried to smear Denmark , that show how clueless she is.
9
Many American conservatives and even some moderates confuse socialism with communism. Denmark is a social democracy, like many other counties in Western Europe. Actually, it should be easy to show that Denmark is a much stronger and honest democracy than the US and its corrupt form of libertarian capitalism, which pollutes the political system with absurd showers of money from the super-rich. If one would measure the success of an economy by a modernized form of GDP, which focuses on measuring the quality of life it provides its citizens with, then the US economic performance would rank way behind many of its European allies. Sadly, Americans refuse to learn from other democracies, believing that the US is better than the best.
39
Conservatives who can not attack social programs on their merits attack these programs by calling the programs "socialist" or even "communist".
Recall arguments against Social Security and Medicare when they were enacted.
In order to get Social Security passed Speaker Sam Rayburn named the law for SS ,FICA.
FICA stands for Federal Insurance Contributions Act.
Sometimes conservatives opposition is very ridiculous and harmful.
When the federal government in the mid 1950's set up a program of free Salk polio injections for school children, conservatives were horrified.
As IKE's HEW Secy, Oveta Culp HObby, remarked the government program was "socialized medicine thru the back door"
Fortunately IKE told the conservatives where to go and polio was reduced to almost zero.
When you cut thru the hot air , the conservative opposition to social programs is described by John Kenneth Galbraith
""The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness."
Conservatives do not want to pay higher taxes to support these programs.
22
Given that we currently have the best government money can buy, perhaps we could take a few clues from countries where the purchase price is paid by the governed rather than corporate interests.
15
What the government can give, it can take away. Dependence on government for short term comfort is a big gamble on the long term future.
7
@Bill
Lincoln at Gettysberg: “that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.”
18
From the census information I have seen there are 10 billionaires for 5.7 Million Danes and 540 billionaires for 325 Million Americans. 1 in 570K vs 1 in 600K. Doesn't look like their economic system is holding anyone back from wealth accumulation.
37
When it comes to large organizations, I can't tell public from private; it all depends of esprit de corps. My utilities are ATT (public/regulated), Waste Management (private/regulated -- I have to buy it), PG&E (private/regulated) , EBMUD (public -- water). It seems the best run is EBMUD. I've worked for the University of WI, Varian, National Semiconductor, and Hitachi. I think the best run was the University of WI; if it were legal for them to do it, they'd make a lot of money.
5
Good to see PK discussing social democracy,wealth sharing, etc. much more useful than his usual economic trivia
7
GDP Annual Growth Rate in Denmark averaged 1.65 percent from 1992 until 2018, hardly booming. Population is about the size of the Houston metro area and the size of Mass. & Ct. combined, making it hard to compare to America. As for immigration, when the percentage of immigrants reached about 10% they passed a new law as reported by the progressive Atlantic below.
"On Tuesday, the Danish parliament overwhelmingly passed a bill seemingly designed to solidify Denmark’s reputation as Western Europe’s least attractive country for refugees—a hard-earned title at a time when many of its neighbors are tightening border controls as people continue to flee conflicts in the Middle East, North Africa, and elsewhere. The law empowers Danish authorities to seize any assets exceeding $1,450 from asylum-seekers in order to help pay for the migrants’ subsistence in the country (items of “sentimental value,” such as wedding rings, are exempt). It also extends, from one year to three, the period that those who are resettled must wait to apply for family members to join them in Denmark."
9
Those years include two major economic crises: the burst of the dot-com bubble and the financial crisis. Those years will skew your average. The thing with statistics is: the ones creating them, the ones citing them, and the ones reading them all need to know what they’re doing. Otherwise, it’s just hot air.
19
As my pseudonym implies, I am a socialist enthusiast. This enthusiasm results from several years of life and work in, what US politicians call, "socialist" countries. Not many Americans have had that opportunity, and they end up parroting whatever nonsense that US politicians say about life outside of the USA. Krugman's article is factual. Life in socialist countries is much, much, much better than in the USA. However, the USA will never voluntarily change its ways and become better. I predict that it will take something big, like the collapse of the Soviet Union, to force US society to change its ways. Unfortunately, US militarism and its constant wars probably will probably bring about that collapse. However, the sooner it happens, the better for all Americans.
17
You need to be more careful in your distinction between socialist (without quotes) and “socialist”. I grew up in a true socialist environment (East Germany), and it was a desaster. There’s a reason why the so-called Eastern Block collapsed. The social unrest that turned things over came only a few years, maybe months before a complete economic cataclysm.
Socialism does not work.
Social-democratic principles, however, do work quite well. Much of Europe follows the principle of a “social market economy”. Note: social, not socialist. Just like the difference between islamic and islamist. Or facial and fascist - just kidding.
The point is: the state and its institutions do have a role to play in helping all of its people prosper. And why not? German blue-collar workers, for instance, work between 35 and 37 hours a week, get four to six weeks vacation (and are expected to take it), and nobody is left wanting for healthcare, housing options, schooling, or food. And they make better products, too (remember the trade deficit?).
18
No wonder young people don't share the aversion to Socialism if the right wing examples of its horrors are societies where people are live in a more egalitarian society where they happier, healthier and live longer than we do. Keep those examples coming!
19
First of all, USA is not a real Democratic system. It's a Plutocracy, ruled by the affluent class or the 1% who only care about keeping the status quo while repealing anything that smell to socialism. Only in America we have the oxymoron of the Electoral College, and the outrageous gerrymandering that has rotten our electoral system giving us the worst president in our nation's history. Thanks to the GOP tax cuts agenda, the social net will only keep shrinking for future generations...
13
Since Reagan, Americans have been fed the lies of "trickle down" economics. It looks like the lies still have legs since the no tax, low tax, increase military spending and let the rest of those unwashed poor suffer their own fate seems to have won. The Right owns America now. Denmark looks a lot more attractive - and sane.
16
"The simple fact is that there is far more misery in America than there needs to be. Every other advanced country has universal health care and a much stronger social safety net than we do. And it doesn’t have to be that way."
So-called "conservative" Americans are so afraid that someone may game the system of any social safety net that they prefer little or no safety net at all. The outcome of this is not at all pretty or desirable.
In the 1970's, when I earned about $6400 a year ($123 a week) as a social worker in SC, the average family of 4 on welfare received $102 a month plus food stamps and Medicaid. That money had to cover shelter, clothing, school supplies, transportation, etc. Obviously it could not. Food stamps were used in the black market, leading to babies going without formula and being fed water instead, among other ills.
In the early 2000s, it meant that a friend's brother, suffering from mental illness and unable to keep a job, got nothing at all because he had no children, even though he was disabled due to his illness. He couldn't get a decent diagnosis, let alone treatment, either. He committed suicide,
I suggest that the measure of a modern country is the extent to which it makes sure all of its citizens are able to lead a reasonably decent and fulfilling life. The United States has a lot of catching up to do.
24
Sanders and now other new progressive candidates are portrayed as flaming left wingers. But consider that they're really true conservatives in the best sense. They aim to restore and conserve US politics that had built our middle and working class's former security/prosperity--- FDR's New Deal, and LBJ's Great Society.
It's the flaming right wing GOP radicals who tear down what made the US once a role model for other democracies. Behind their every policy---on health care, taxes, jobs, regulations, green energy, etc----what they want to 'liberalize' is the privilege and power of their corporate/billionare mega donors.
Elites now dominate politics, holding our democracy and economy captive to their interests. Many politicians hate this, but they're powerless vs the competition. Only election finance reform can liberate them. What say you, PK?
Our mega donors are now like the old EU aristocrats repudiated by our American Revolution.
We're all taught in school to be proud of our overthrowing British colonial rule. But now average citizens are like colonials in our own country, as unshared private profit is extracted from their productivity.
We see new aristos entrenched under other names, with excuses like freedom, liberty, private profit, and small govt, above all. A pattern ---the 18th C dressed up for the 21st.
If columnists are progressive, their duty is to highlight and criticize this distortion, beyond bashing Trump/GOP, who are the symptoms.
12
It is fact, not imagination, that the Scandinavian countries are among the LEAST ethnically diverse countries in the world. In an attempt to help maintain the social and economic programs that are boasted about here, they have historically limited immigration. As there is increased pressure for them to accept refugees, there has been a rise in nationalism and pressure for cultural indoctrination of migrants.
It is EASY in a society where everyone shares the same values and ethics to have a communal approach to income distribution. Everyone contributes and everyone benefits from the collective work.
It is DIFFICULT in a multicultural society to do the same. When there is no shared notion of "us," when those who have don't want to share and those who don't have skills to contribute look for handouts instead. There is a lack of trust that those in power will distribute it fairly or that those who do not have power will be willing to participate.
The notion of "no one left behind" is lovely in theory. But sometimes trying to bring everyone along can sink the entire ship.
17
@JM You might have had a point if immigrants destroyed an otherwise vibrant economy. However, it has been shown that immigration aids economies; immigrants work harder (usually with less benefits than natives), and countries' economies benefit from their presence. Just look at the history of the USA: it was immigration that powered the development of the country. When the ethos of a country's inhabitants is to take, rather than give, newly arrivals spur economic growth, and, hopefully, help elect polititians who understand this.
14
So, who do you consider to be part of that “diversity burden” in the US? First-generation immigrants? Incl. co-founders of Google? How about second generation? How about third - like Trump? How about Native Americans? We’re all immigrants to them. And brutal ones at that.
Your white world-view is a poor excuse for not educating your own children better, for not giving people healthcare, for not protecting them from poverty in retirement.
14
I know it was not meant derogatively in this article, but the term "safety net" does have that connotation and reflects the attitude of the society where it originates. It sounds like it is means that certain services should be provided to people who just can’t make it or who have fallen on hard times.
Socialism more broadly means that people as members of a society are treated as such and while they may not have the acumen to acquire wealth they are as members of that society have the right to essential service such as education, healthcare and work. When the charity aspect is taken out of the equation there is more dignity show the individual and it is reflected in the quality of social interaction and therefore less social discord and more harmony and happiness.
8
The basic life necessities outlined in our constitution should make it clear that all citizens are entitled to the same education, the same healthcare systems as a matter of equality. We fall terribly short here in regards to the notion of equality for all.
10
A Republican might respond: Everyone is entitled to the same basic level. The Constitution doesn’t say how good that needs to be. It’s up to you to manage to afford more.
Cynical, isn’t it?
27
@T RWhen I hear Republicans say that, I remind them that the Constitution does not prevent the people and their representatives from making those health care choices.
As long as the representatives in Congress are chosen by the people then it's all Constitutional.
I haven't been to Denmark, but I would like to suggest that any Trumpist who prides hisself on how innovative, hard-working, and modern 'Murrica is, needs to go visit a joint like Rotterdam real soon. Oh, and be sure and get there via Schiopol airport.
Because we're oathetically behind, and you're making it worse.
10
To make one thing clear - once and for all:
The "social security system" was invented in Germany in 1883 to FIGHT socialism. It was designed as a measure to stop the raise of the SPD in fact.
The first pillars of social security were
- health care
- casualty and disability insurance (severe occupational accidents were frequent in these days)
- basic retirement
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geschichte_der_Sozialversicherung_in_Deuts...
(See "Kaiserreich". It´s telling that this article doesn´t exist in English.)
Otto von Bismarck, the famous "ironeating" hard line Prussian Right Winger initiated the legislation by the Emperor to steal the thunder of SPD. SPD campaigned fiercely. Because of many disadvantaged desperate workers who fell ill at work losing their pay they were growing stronger and stronger in these days.
This lefistlation had been a big success for Mr. von Bismarck who took the heat out of the issue by this. This was also the reason many other European - not only European - nations including Denmark had copied and extended this system pretty fast that had also been a tremendous stabilizing element in both World Wars and thereafter.
It´s an ironic quirk of fate that RW hardliners in USA sell this system as "socialist". It had been quite the opposite. US wase lucky enough to own huge amounts of money due to the outcome of both World Wars to let something trickle down.
Now this is fading away - while intelligence of US Right Wingers got "FOXified".
11
So in summary: smart conservatives, who see value in keeping people alive and healthy, used to exist. They still do in some places, but certainly not in the US.
12
PK asks: Should we have Medicare for all, or simply the right for everyone to buy into an enhanced Medicare program?
What an overdue discussion. The public & NYT readers have long deserved real analysis from the ‘conscience of a liberal’ on 1 of our hottest issues. Not just be thankful for ACA and ‘improve’ it. That’s a carefully centrist line. We're generations behind the rest of the civilized world. Compare/contrast. How do they do it?
From True Cost Blog---Dates when countries started universal health care—a partial list, with varied systems.
UK 1948 Single Payer
Switzerland 1994 Insurance Mandate
Japan 1938 Single Payer
Sweden 1955 Single Payer
Netherlands 1966 Two-Tier
Australia 1975 Two Tier
Netherlands 1966 Two-Tier
Germany 1941 Insurance Mandate
France 1974 Two-Tier
Norway 1912 Single Payer
Sweden 1955 Single Payer
Austria 1967 Insurance Mandate
Italy 1978 Single Payer
Not all are single payer, but they regulate insurance costs. Their rw parties support h/c for all. They're capitalist nations, but don't let profit be 1st priority over citizens' health and lives. Here’ that’s un-American. What say you PK?
Why are these stark contrasts kept dark in the US press and TV News? Our media is so proud of its 1st amendment protection against govt censorship, but is pressured by norms set by big money politics, to keep its range of coverage too narrow. Media isn’t doing its duty to inform voters on solutions to our political problems affecting life and death.
11
America's system needs a better saftey net and programs in place to help over half of the population at this point. Idk if any of you ever played the game Bioshock, but I feel the villain's version of hyper Capitalism is whats in play in the US the past 35 years or so at this point. Its a winner talk all society where the loser is simply deemed a parasite, lazy or stupid, even if they put forth effort but fail. I think its far past time we realize humans all deserve, no, have the RIGHT, to have a roof over their heads, afford a basic used car, and can pay for food and water without fear a Recession or a round of bad luck can take it all and the next morning they dont know what will happen. In a Western nation like US, EU and Canada, all these things should be a given. If you seek more, feel free to go out and achieve it. You shouldnt have to put for maximum effort in return for scraps or a thin slice of the pie.
Thats the thing with many of the European countries, they still have a strong sense of community. And thats the actual definition of Socialism, community control, people in control not corrupt Republicans or Big Business. The Right has spread this lie that outside the US is a storm of chaos when anyone who has bothered to travel and come back will tell you, US is a pretty miserable and unnecessary competitive place, especially if you are a millennial, colored or poor.
3
If social Darwinism is the only alternative being offered, I'll take socialism.
7
For Criss sake the reason why Denmark is so healthy is because like Norway they are awash in petro dollars and simply cant spend it all. Now Sweden- that's a whole other story. Malmo is gone
6
So, Denmark does not fit the definition of socialism, and that makes it "better". Just to differentiate some non free-market systems:
Socialism, where the government owns the means of production, and controls the distribution of wealth.
Fascism, where the government controls "private" production, and the distribution of wealth.
Social democracy, where the government controls at least some of the distribution of wealth.
Seems like the critical issue is how much wealth is controlled by government. In the US, the total of federal, state, and local budgets have increased over the past century from about 10% of GDP to about 35%. Most of that increase comes from social welfare spending. Over the past 30 years, the federal budget in Denmark has ranged from 50 to 60% of GDP, about double that in the US.
At what level of government control of wealth does it not matter what the system is called?
2
@Bob Krantz These are indeed labels. It is important though to make sure that words have meaning. There is nuance as well. Generally, Denmark is the same system that we have. There are some differences, but basically we are the same.
1
I’d love to live in a ‘happy’ place like Denmark. Do they have porous ‘open-ish’ borders like the United States?
9
On a business trip to Denmark nearly a decade ago, a colleague and I got talking over dinner with two young women training to be visiting caregivers for the elderly. They told us each Dane who wanted such a visit - which could be as anodyne as just saying hello and making sure all was OK - would get one on a daily basis. As the two young women were training, each also was paid a decent wage, an encouragement for them to stay in the job. Here we have respect for the elderly, respect for the young who are starting careers - basically, respect for humanity. That sort of socialism is what every developed country should have. The USA rejects this out of hand, proof that being a developed nation does not mean you are a civilized one.
26
@Philip Hersh
Denmark’s population is approximately 5,700,000 with 5,000,000 being ethnic Danes...sharing common language, homogenous cultural values, level of education, and economic opportunities.
The population of the United States is almost 327,000,000...ethnically, culturally, economically, linguistically, politically diverse on every level. Therein lies the difference.
63
Italy is a mish-mash of all sorts of ethnically, culturally, economically, linguistically, politically diverse groups at many levels with 60+ million people. And, still, Italians enjoy a lifestyle as rich (if not more rich) than that of the U.S, and a health care system that works for most (at 1/2 the price of the U.S.).
The difference is that Americans don't have a sense of social cohesion like Europeans and will likely never develop one.
2
@mrfreeze6
Italy is great to visit, but live there is great if you are rich, just like everywhere.
Good one Paul. Although somewhat restrained... Your discrimination between "socialism" and Democratic Socialism" Is totally great and time full... We really needed that bit of clarity. I hope that all the "pundits" on the REAL NEWS NETWORKS as opposed to the fox propaganda outlet will start using this clarifying term.
2
Why is it NYT's resident economic propagandist cannot recognize that comparing the US to Denmark is like comparing oranges to broccoli. Denmark's population is ~5.6 million - the US has twice that many illegal immigrants. Denmark's population is pretty much homogenous, unlike the US. I guess it is the propagandist in him.
10
I'm not sure what to call what we have anymore but it certainly isn't capitalism. The game has been so rigged on behalf of the super rich that calling it a free market is an insult to the word free.
As far as I can tell from our current Republican government their goal is to turn America into Russia economically. They're gaining ground.
7
@Jenifer: Record low unemployment rate for both African Americans and Hispanic Americans indicate otherwise. As such, I'd say the goals of the Republicans are quite sound for the vast majority of Americans.
3
It is awesome that we are now enjoying record low unemployment. Nonetheless, in real dollars, wages have been doing a backward slide for decades because they haven't kept up with inflation. Many of my coworkers pull 60 hour work weeks just to keep up with basic bills. Most can't set money aside. They hardly see their kids. What kind of life is this American Dream?
9
@CapitalistRoader: From the LATimes: "The economy added 2.95 million jobs for black people during Obama’s term, according to the Labor Department. That’s more than four times the 708,000 jobs so far since Trump took office."
This is how masochistic sadistic egotistic narcissistic bigot racist war mongering republicans and their horde are. Only care about themselves and a non-existent God and guns and NASCAR and so called reality shows. Grow up and be adults not little children. Yes, Virginia socialism is not a bad than and no it doesn't turn into communism. Stop being selfish! This is life not a car race not a television show or a football game where my team beats yours and too bad for you. Yes, the inmates are running the asylum. Why are they still running around free just like war criminal GWBush family?! Stop watching the children's network station Fixed Noise propaganda and come into the real world.
2
Wait until Fox News finds out that the U.S. has public schools. Biggest socialist handout there is - those schoolchildren pay not one penny!!
1
This is all fine and good, but Americans do no want to pay for the taxes to support this intrusive level of government spending. Why should I pay for a comfortable lifestyle for the poor? Do I get to have one as a pet?
5
The Danes consider their tax payments as an investment in themselves and their future. They understand the benefit safety nets and social support provides to a society. I know that when I pay my property taxes or other taxes, the money is going to pay for schooling future citizens, that my taxes pay for the police and fire fighters, the libraries I use so much, and countless other things. And I can tell you first-hand that living in the projects is not “comfy”.
8
Why would the writer think that anyone would care about what Ms. Regan thinks about anything.
Is what a babbling broadcaster pontificates actually news?
Is the writer attempting to make it news by writing about it?
Perhaps Ms. Regan can now comment on Mr. Krugman and create a news loop of uselessness.
Pundits commenting on other pundits punditry is not news. Just nonsense!
I know it's my fault for paying for this content. I feel stupid for supporting it.
Stop the shaming and give me analysis that covers the relevant issues from both sides of the fence. Compare-contrast. No more true-false shame based attacks.
Can you enlighten readers with useful information and critical analysis rather than constantly attack those who differ with you as ignorant idiots?
Unlikely.
Fake news. A waste of my time.
4
It sounds a bit like public-private partnerships write large. I am gathering from the remark that "they don't own the means of production" that for example day care centers are not owned by the government but they pay for them and set the rules for them.
In my view, government exists to do what the private sector cannot justify: to make its citizens' lives better. Healthcare, education, housing, public transportation, infrastructure are all critically important and necessary to every one of us. Labels don't matter, lives do.
4
@Randomonium The only thing Corporations want to do is extort hours and labor out of you. Your well being isnt their concern. Paying you less, even an unlivable wage is preferable in order to maximize profits
1
Always humored when people talk about Denmark and believe that is utopia and that the US can follow in it's footsteps. First, Denmark is a very small country with a small population - about 5.6 million people. Second, Denmark has a very homogeneous population with a shared culture. The government makes much of it's money from oil taken from the sea, high taxes, and is a net exporter. They have rigid import laws. Does the NYTimes believe that the US can mimic this county? Are we to become a net exporter, stop population growth, stop immigration, and insist that everyone have a job that actually requires them to be productive? PS health and dental are only partially covered and the government decides what it will not cover (i.e. leave the country for care not covered); and only those that are academically excellent are allowed to go to 'free' college.
9
@Ma America is one of the richest countries around, if it cant even afford to try and go in a direction to help over half of its people who struggling or running in place, than it has failed as a modernized Western Nation.
10
Scandinavia consistently comes out ahead over the USA on most measures of what consistutes the good life. And for good reason. The populations of these Nordic countries decided that to have a decent life they would need to act as a community with values that would lift all its citizens. So while many Americans buy into the “self-made man” fantasy and think they are going to be millionaires and billionaires the Scandinavians see quality education, expanded health care, supportive family policies, a balance between management and labour, more compassionate ways to address societal issues and sound environmental safeguards as the best way to thrive. As a Swedish Canadian, I see the valuable examples that are available to Americans as well if they would just stop reading the tweets and drinking the cool-aid.
10
The escence of ignorant bigotry and hatred of Socialism is that those who hyate it are trained to hate a word before they know what it means or the people who practice it.
Let's face it, if we learned one thing over the last decades it's that our fellow Americans are ignorant.
Did you read that article about D'souza's film? That sums it up.
The political divisions in the US has its parallels in Golf. Not within golfers rather in its rules. For some reason years ago the fathers of golf decided that the game should be made more difficult which divides those that can only cope in straight lines from those who have the ability to coordinate the straight with the curve. The golf club shaft must incline 10 degrees to the part that hits the ball. So when you try to hit a ball the approach to it is along an arc. So golfers struggle trying to make a putter approach the ball by straightening the arc. The rulers of golf think this is the priceless joy of golf. Making Golf more Difficult. The phrase sound familiar. Abandoning the 10 degree law would set up all kinds of new interesting solutions as well as increasing the allure and pleasure of golf. But NO, they insist the pleasure of golf is the anti pleasure philosophy diet of its fathers. This is synonymous to the conservative line of political thinking the world over. That inheritance is earned and taxes kill rather than the reverse. A world community that shares the benefits that accrue from mass production, generated energy and technology in medicine and food production is anathema to the GOP and all the far right of this world. Such a monumental strike against fairness and intelligence.
4
Better title for column -- "Something’s Rotten in the US, But Healthy in Denmark" ---and other democracies.
In a 2016 Clinton/Sanders debate, Sanders briefly cited Denmark as a positive example re health care, I think.
Hillary's response was to proudly proclaim “America is not Denmark!” Great line? She got the last word. No follow up. It was the centrist response of the Democratic Party –the party that’s supposed to oppose the GOP to protect American citizens.
Does GOP/Fox News put the Dems so on the defensive they avoid comparing us to more advanced democracies---also capitalist--- who have generations of health care for all? And support their citizens in other ways?
By the GOP method of demonizing govt itself----and govt is us----the GOP is actually anti democracy, while they masquerade as apostles of American ‘Freedom’.
Obvious column for Krugman to write – campaign finance---abroad vs here. A topic worthy of the conscience of a liberal with a Nobel in economics.
The GOP is the party doing the redistributing---of the fruits of our national productivity up to the mega donors. Our politicians we elect share in the proceeds of the profits, in an upward spiral of money our Court called political speech per 1st Amendment.
The media just reports the horse race of which candidates raise the most $$---as the citizen majority loses political power. Thus the media in a way colludes and profits by this, and also by fees for campaign ads.
Trace cause/effect.
3
@Meredith
Great post, right on the mark with all your points.
It's interesting that, during the 2016 primaries, Krugman was an avid Hillary "we're not Denmark" Clinton supporter, and he couldn't emphasize enough how impractical, if not outright crazy, Bernie Sanders' ideas were.
Too bad this article didn't appear during those primaries. I guess Krugman's loyalty to Clinton blinded him to objectivity.
3
Here's an idea: how about "denmarkratizing" a small state (like Vermont etc) as an experimental model. If they do, I would be the first one to move there in order to experience the "horrible" consequences of socialism.
And since the USA is a "federation" of individual states, each state should be able to decide HOW its federal taxes are spent within the national budget. For example, how about redesigning the "pie chart" of spending:
5%/ military, 20% education, 20% public services, 30% healthcare, etc. (Let's take it a step further: how about every American making assigning those percentages on their TAX RETURNS!)
Let's finally give a REAL CHOICE to American citizens by offering denmark-style quality of life. "FREEDOM" at last!
2
Each State does have the ability to tax at any level. If a state wants to bump taxes up to equal the tax rate of Denmark or higher, they may.
If a State wishes to implement social programs like Denmark, they may.
Finding a State where people are willing to spend more will be easy.
Finding a State where people will agree to be taxed that high will be difficult.
4
I can sum up the wonders of Denmark portrayed in the photo; the people are not home sitting in front of a Television.
4
Mr. Krugman was correct to differentiate between democratic socialist and socialist - the term most people fling about when bashing democratic socialists, or democrats, or moderates, or essentially anyone who hasn’t lined up for the Kool-Aid. Care should be taken, too, to differentiate between capitalism and the particularly virulent, lawless and aggressive strain of capitalism that we have in the U.S., and that is rightly turning more and more people to the DSA.
People aren't so much smitten with Denmark as they are sickened by the incredibly noxious system they are forced to endure in the States.
3
@S Jones: So true. That's why people are leaving the United States in droves, and no one from any other country wants to move here.
Because we have a noxious system.
@CapitalistRoader: Yes, all those Europeans wanting to emigrate to the US!
See FDR's State of the Union Address, January 11, 1944 (the "Second Bill of Rights" speech):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3EZ5bx9AyI4
Nothing in that vision requires or suggests classic socialism--i.e., government ownership of the means of production. The hard-bitten capitalists who hated FDR and his vision and considered him "a traitor to his class" could not see or admit the fact that his administration saved capitalism from itself.
2
Not as socialist as you may think
Denmark's Prime Minister, Lars Løkke Rasmussen, has been the leader of the center-right liberal Venstre party since 2009
Denmark now practices what many liberals consider an anti-immigrant policy
A current bill being debated would require mandatory day care for a minimum of 30 hours a week for immigrant children up to six years including courses in Danish values “such as gender equality, community, participation and co-responsibility.”
1
I guess this means the Republicans are "Anti-social".
1
I have never been able to figure out why the term Social Democrat is so misunderstood in the USA. Thank you Mr Krugman for your excellent explanation. As someone who grew up under Labour governments in the UK, and who now lives in Canada, I am saddened by my own country’s slide into this misunderstanding. There really is not much difference between classic liberalism and social democracy, except the latter’s stress on state and community responsibility for the less fortunate, through a redistributive tax regimen.
If we ever hope to get out of our current mess, we really do have to accept the responsibility of being “our brother’s keeper”.
Matthew 25:40-45. And I’m not even Christian.
1
@Alison Cartwright
If you feel obligated to be your brother’s keeper, you must limit the number of brothers you accept, and make sure that most of them could easily assimilate and could contribute to your economic system.
The majority of British people voted for Brexit, feeling that they had been accepting too many immigrants who were not assimilating and were heavily dependent on welfare.
Canada accepts the vast majority of its immigrants based on a merit system which prioritizes those who could contribute a needed talent/ ability to Canada’s economy and who could easily assimilate.
If you will read the 7/1/18 NYT article “In Denmark, Harsh New Laws for Immigrant ‘Ghettos’”, you will see that the Danes have also learned that is was a bad idea to accept a great many asylum seekers and refugees with little education or desire (or ability) to assimilate.
A country with a sense of community responsibility cannot accept every migrant who manages to cross its borders.
7
@ann I see that "illegal migration" is the latest right wing reason for not having policies like some form of universal healthcare.
I suspect we could solve that issue tomorrow, and Fox would have a new reason for the narrow minded a day later.
1
Am I reading this op-ed right? I fear I have gone through the looking glass and seeing another world. Dr. Krugman who has been dancing around Progressivism by relentlessly backing the Third Way movement is now going back to FDR? I need a vacation.
But first, we have to stamp out the socialism or worse, communism label sure to haunt us from the GOP/Trump party and I am not quite sure about the Clintonian/Obama/Schumer/Pelosi/Biden crowd. They will not go away quietly into the night.
Then how about the re-education of the main stream media aka The Times and The Washpost. Will they continue to push for "centrism" or take a step back and re-evaluate what most of the country wants?
2
What I hear then -- if somewhat between the lines -- is that it is not really a battle of ideologies but rather a naked power grab by an entitled minority trying to exploit every advantage they've got without any regard fro what is fair and just. If calling something socialism works to cow the majority, they'll use that tactic. If that stops working they will invent a scandal in a pizza parlour. Perhaps at some point we should stop taking any of their nonsense seriously.
What Bernie Sanders has promoted might be described as Democratic Socialism.
What Elizabeth Warren is promoting might be described as Democatic Capitalism.
What most Republicans are promoting might be described as Libertarian Capitalism. Democracy has no place in that pardigm.
@Brice C. Showell Democracy exists inside of all these. There is a large range of opinions and ideas. Not everyone is going to get what they want in a democracy. The key to democracy is compromise and our system is full of that. We need to return to that ideal that not everything is lose, lose.
Krugman needn't have traveled all the way to Denmark to discover a free-market country with progressive social programs where citizens earn more on average, live longer and enjoy a much higher "happiness" rating than the eternally disgruntled and combative US. Just drive over the northern border. But I guess we're too close for comfort.
1
@William Marsden
I admire Canada for its healthcare system.
I wish Canada were more environmentally conscious and less willing to extract oil from some very environmentally harmful sources: tar sands. I wish Canadian firms and government weren't so eager to lay pipelines throughout North America to ship that oil.
3
@William Marsden This is an interesting take considering that the British believe that Americans are too friendly and positive.
With the self destruction of American democracy taking place, Socialist themes were bound to emerge from frustrated intellects shocked at the wholesale ignorance of Americans, I blame on Television. American's do need babysitters so they don't hurt themselves. They already did, voting to lose their health care.
2
“Don’t criticize what you can’t understand” - Bob Dylan
Advice people like Trish Regan, who has probably not spent much time in Denmark (or anywhere in Europe) should take to heart.
1
@Bill White I am not personally critical of Denmark, etc. I just don’t believe that this country needs to mimic theirs. They should be free to manage their nation and we should be free to manage ours.
1
The Democrats characteristically care about every citizen whereas the Republicans over the years have made every effort to take from the poor to give to the rich and to deny millions of people life saving health care. The Democrats may be close to Socialism, but the alternative only means unbridled greed and death for America.
There really is no reason to even consider the ignorance displayed on the FOX News Channel you cite. Why debate criminals?
2
People are truly free when not inhibited or limited by the lack of opportunities. In our country that is major drag on individual freedoms. Saying that you can make yourself may apply only to very small fraction of citizens. Most are stuck in jobs that give them enough to survive without knowing that there may be out there a job for them they would love.
Give them more opportunities, open their horizons at school, and you will have many more happy citizens.
We have so many angry Americans because we have so many unfulfilled citizens, wasting their time on doing something they never wanted to do.
1
Folks in the US have been brainwashed for years to believe that socialism is bad. There is a big reason for this. Business wants capitalism, not socialism. I am Canadian and know how health care works at its best. For the people and not for business or profit. Time to get a grip folks. The US way is way out of step except for the greedy and there are lots of them out there.
4
@heysus I would take what I have over healthcare in Canada everyday of the week. I pay too much but I can get in to see a doctor same day. I can switch family doctors at any time with no wait if I am not happy. Wait time to see a specialist is relatively short. Procedures, including elective, have short wait times.
2
@heysus
I guess seeing the outcome of Venezuela is brainwashing? Maybe you are of the opinion that folk in Venezuela are doing just fine?
2
It's a lot easier to be generous when there aren't many of you and you're rich. Sad but true.
1
In comparing capitalism to socialism, let's look at climate change and environmental degradation.
Capitalism wants an economic and political environment in which the resources of the earth are as cheap as possible and extracting them is done as cheaply as possible. So we use abundant, cheap fossil fuels even when we realize that they cause catastrophic climate change. And we extract those fossil fuels in ways that are harmful: strip mining, fracking.
In our worship of capitalism we are willing to trade away not only the well being of workers for the well being of the owners of large corporations. We are also willing to trade away the inhabitability of our earth.
1
Bernie Sanders often used the Denmark example, but this can be taken too far. Denmark, along with many smaller Scandinavian countries have been homogeneous for centuries, in effect, it has been like one extended family, probably the majority having ancestors in common if you go back far enough.
As such, the feeling of universal caring was based on this commonality, so if one paid more taxes to educate someone who will expand medical knowledge, and even found a hospital complex, the benefits will redound to all Danes.
Cultures are more than their economic and legal structure, but the anomalies of history that shaped these structures over time immemorial. As I tell my friends when we discuss this, "There is no magic fairly dust to turn the United States into Denmark."
7
@Call Me Al
No, there is no magic fairy dust and no, you don't need fairy dust to turn US into Denmark or something similar. What you need is political will which is regrettably short in the US. Most US politicians are in the pockets of big business and the rich and they do their bidding unashamedly to line their own pockets. It is the Nordic/Scandinavian countries that are run by the people for the people while the US is run by the plutocrats for plutocrats.
3
How I wish my family could share in such an ideal way of life but alas, we live in Wisconsin under Gov Scott Walker and his repressive backward policies. My grandchildren will probably have college debts and anxiety about affordable health care etc.
3
@JCT Why do people believe that the purpose causes anxiety. I find the exact opposite to be true. Lack of purpose causes the most anxiety of all.
1
@JCT
Like a great Democrat said two days ago: "America is not/never was great."
1
@shreir Greatness is a matter of perspective. It’s a compared to what scenario. If comparing to fictional utopia then no nation is great. America isn’t perfect and neither are any nations in Europe or the rest of the world. I think plenty of nations are great, not just America. That’s my opinion.
I find what some say to be interesting though not authentic. We live in a nation where people claim many are starving yet we have the highest levels of obesity. People supposedly can’t afford medications yet we have enough for extremely high levels of legal and illegal drug abuse. People can’t earn a living wage yet they can afford smart phones, high speed internet, high tech game systems, tablet computers, cable, music subscriptions, manicures and pedicures, nice vehicles, vacations, eating out too often, etc. Such a sad life indeed.
3
@John
Funny, could find where Krugman said any of those things.
1
@John
Sir, Krugman only describes the unhappy souls on the coasts. You have obviously visited the blissful folk in between.
1
Thank you! As someone having grown up in a European social democracy the difference to socialism could not be clearer.
Progressive US candidates do not do themselves a favor by self-proclaiming 'socialism' (yes, even my favorite candidate keeps doing that). They scare off moderate progressives - and historically they are plain wrong.
4
It´s not only health care.
The social security system in Denmark covers pension, nursery and free education also.
https://lifeindenmark.borger.dk/Living-in-Denmark
It´s funded by tax while the pillars of the similar social security system of Germany (20 times bigger, but it´s working nevertheless) are funded mainly by compulsory contributions from employees and employers. Tax in Denmark is much higher but in overall comparison including contributions this difference is largely balanced.
Other European countries have mixed systems (Poland for example).
Switzerland, well known as a capitalistic country never overtaken by any sort of communism, also has a very well established social security system protected by Swiss Constitution
https://www.bsv.admin.ch/bsv/en/home/social-insurance/ueberblick.html
6
@ws
Exactly. Danes may take home less of their paycheque, but what they do take home is theirs to spend. Neither illness nor education expenses will put them in the poor house.
1
I certainly agree with the gist of this argument, and agree that Denmark is a great country -- if you are a native Dane.
But this article that appeared recently in the Times -- https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/01/world/europe/denmark-immigrant-ghetto... -- shows a darker side.
Quote: "Denmark’s government is introducing a new set of laws to regulate life in 25 low-income and heavily Muslim enclaves, saying that if families there do not willingly merge into the country’s mainstream, they should be compelled."
It seems that one downside of living in Denmark is that there is not a lot of tolerance of diversity. So maybe that should be a factor to be considered in any evaluation of life in Denmark.
1
@Cynthia It is also a very much a Lutheran culture and as such can feel a bit dry, humourless and formal. Danes need industrial amounts of alcohol to have a good time.
It's not for everyone.
3
@Anne. Anne, you're from Chicago. The Danes need alcohol, Chicagoans appear to need a lot of guns. I'd take the alcohol.
1
I always enjoy these little articles comparing very small, highly homogeneous, highly educated countries to the United States. Here is a country the size of Connecticut, 87% white, with one of the most highly educated populations in the world, and you wish to compare it to the U.S. ? Find a country with similar demographics, education, and size, and then get back to me. There are none ? precisely the point. The United States is still an ongoing experiment, especially in demographics, like the world has never seen. And we have been wildly successful. Let's give Denmark and a number of other "socialistic" countries another 10-20 years to digest the large influx of immigrants, and see how that works for them.
7
@madcroatian
The Nordic and Scandinavian countries have the highest percentage (relative to their size) of refugee intake in Europe for more than 20 years now. Most refugees have been successfully assimilated into the host country's community fabric. Regardless of the size or demographics, the basic tenets of a civilized society should hold true for all - that we should take care of our children our weak, our old and our poor. The question we all should be asking is why the US, as the world's richest country, can not do what the Danes have been doing for their own people - to educate the young, to look after the old and the sick , to give ordinary people a dignified existence - without much of a fuss? The measure of a civilized society is the way all its people are treated and I am afraid the US have fallen short on all accounts.
3
Socialism is the idea that you treat humans at least as well as you treat machinery.
After all is the point of being in the human family to accumulate the most stuff or that we crate a comfortable and spiritually connected world in which we live, together?
Mathematically, there is no reason that Artificial Intelligence controlling robots and computers couldn't run corporations and capitalism without humans at all. Humans are only necessary if our laws put humans ahead of corporations. But the Supreme Court keeps giving corporations more rights, and the owners of the global conglomerates control all mass media and shape our view of the world.
In their story the .1% are above all this. The Wealth Creators, buying companies and selling them off for parts, and the Job Creators, firing the people that use to work at those companies and capping our wages.
Machinery is great, but capitalism is the idea that machinery is the center of the economy, so that humans exist merely to run the machinery.
Now they have taken our SALT deductions to partially pay for $5.5 trillion tax cut for the owners of capital.
We are swimming in capital. We have been at a steady 80% capitalization for as long as I remember seeing the number in the NYT. We are supposed to be at Full Employment. But wages are still stagnant, ever since they created Trickle Down, while they give to tax cuts to the machinery that that is pushing down the wages.
Healthy, educated population is more productive.
2
@McGloin
"Mathematically, there is no reason that Artificial Intelligence controlling robots and computers couldn't run corporations and capitalism without humans at all."
Mathematically an AI capable of running a corporation does not exist.
1
Dr. Krugman points out that there's a lot more misery in America than there needs to be. Yes, certainly. But there are some very rich and influential people for whom that's a consciously-desired outcome. People who think "It's not enough for me to win, you have to lose."
12
US-style capitalism (e.g., tax cuts for the rich and deregulation) has an enormous impact on citizens beyond just income inequality. The government, at the federal, state, and local levels, does not have enough money to address basic infrastructure needs, and our country is falling apart. California is burning because too little money is spent on forest management. Traffic is snarled in cities because there is no money to spend on new roads (let alone repair crumbling old roads) or to improve mass-transit systems. Yet as long as the stock market is doing well and billionaires keep getting richer, our leaders will tell us everything is great. How bad do things have to get before people wake up?!
10
To Eric Leonidas
W Hartford9h ago who wrote
compare free spending Portugal with austerity constrained Greece
Your statement about Portugal is factually wrong
The DEFINITION of austerity is to REDUCE government spending.
Here are the numbers for Portugal
Year Government Spending % of GDP
2014 51.8% Social Party takes power
2015 48.2%
2016 44.9 %
2017 45.9%
For comparison, government spending in austerity possessed Germany was 44 % in 2016, in France 56.5%
Concurrent with reducing government spending, the Socialist government reduced the National debt of Portugal from 136% in 2014, when it took power, to 125.7% in 2017
By every economic number Portugal practiced austerity - successfully.
As did Denmark. And for that matter, Germany. It was slammed by Krugman for that in 2010, but if you plot the GDP per capita a 2008 -2016 for the US you will find that it recovered faster and better than the US that use a stimulus policy
Mr. Krugman keep claiming that austerity does not work but facts are different. It works in well administered countries. . Greece is not one of it. It's corruption Index is 48, an all time high
https://tradingeconomics.com/greece/corruption-index
7
Why doesn’t Prof. Krugman tell us the funding sources for Danish social programs? The amount that Danes are taxed? The number of working Danes that pay zero income taxes, and also receive EITC? How much the Danes pay in property, sales, and state, local income taxes? In America, almost 50% of WORKING adults pay NO Federal income taxes...ask the esteemed professor if that is the case in Denmark.
5
@R. Burdette We already know the answer. The top 20% of wage earners pay 80% of income taxes in this country. It’s far less “progressive “ in Denmark and Sweden. Americans will have to get used to paying more if they want these programs. This is true even if we heavily tax the wealthy.
3
Yes, it turns out that when the rich have gobbled up all the money, there's nowhere else for taxes to come from. Funny that.
1
@R. Burdette
See my post on the Nordic model. Basically it operates on transfer payments from high income earners to low income earners via high income taxes on high(er) incomes
Which is not the same as taxing high wealth individuals. Wealth that does not produce earnings (non productive wealth) is not taxed in Sweden see my post for pro and cons.
1
I don't know of any Socialist firms in Denmark. I am only familiar with that big capitalist one called Lego.
It is definitely a welfare state, something I despise.
So people in Denmark are more equal. But they are equally below the US average.
The average house size in Denmark is 1,500 ft2, while in the US, it is about 2,100. The US has twice the car ownership rate as Denmark. Why is Krugman and other Socialists comparing to a country where almost half the households cannot afford a car?
Sure, median income in Denmark may be higher, but everything costs more.
As far as life expectancy, the US does not measure up well because of its urban black and drug problem. Adjust for those and it isn't so bad.
2
@Son of the American Revolution "Why is Krugman and other Socialists comparing to a country where almost half the households cannot afford a car?" Have you considered that maybe owning a car is not a necessity in Denmark? Perhaps with a superior public transport system car ownership is less important than health care, a superior educational system, or simply well being. Don't superimpose your ideas on what is important on others.
6
@J K Griffin I don’t see that anyone is superimposing their ideas on to others. Not every nation needs to be like Denmark. There is room in this world for multiple different political and economic systems. People have rightly criticized the US for trying to change other nations to a system that we see fit. In that vein, it’s not up to the rest of the world as to what the US is or becomes.
@John Thanks. I guess that rather than write "Don't superimpose your ideas on what is important on others." I should have written, "Don't assume your ideas on what is important is important to others." Sorry.
RIGHT ON DR. KRUGMAN.
EXCELLENT,
F3
1
"The simple fact is that there is far more misery in America than there needs to be." Yes, as the U.N. report by Professor Philip Alston, United Nations Special Rapporteur on extreme poverty and human rights (In the U.S.) clearly described. It is astonishing that Americans do not look around the world and ask why not us? Republican/Trump tax reform bill giving massive tax cuts to the 1% & corporations is “America’s bid to become the most unequal society in the (advanced) world." Trump administration hates the truth like nature abhors a vacuum. Of course, this has been a long-term social/economic degradation which can be identified with Reagan and Reaganism/Republicans to the present. In that sense, Trump is not so much an aberration but the culmination of a long trend of political divisive tribalism where any political compromise is intolerable. The “Sheer Cruelty” of proposed and enacted Trump/Republican policies reflects a loss of an American “moral compass” and sense of common decency,
2
Denmark is a social democracy BECAUSE it is a real democracy, and a 'social' society is what Danish voters choose.
American voters would gladly choose similar policies, like health care, secure retirement, accessible education - the polls show this - but we are prohibited from getting them because our politicians are chosen and funded almost solely by the super wealthy right wing.
To get closer to what we all want, we need:
1. Paper ballots in every state (and universal vote-by-mail), with required risk-limiting-audits -- so voting software insiders, or foreign hackers, can't decide close elections for their own interests
2. Publicly funded campaigns, where every serious candidate gets the same amount of free speech -- so the Kochs can't simply flood the airwaves with their nonsense and drown out legitimate candidates
3. No more gerrymandering; districts should be drawn by independent, common sense citizen commissions, not by party bosses -- so the voters can choose their politicians, not the other way around.
9
"The simple fact is that life is better for most Danes than it is for their U.S. counterparts." It seems that most Americans aren't interested in a society where the averages are better. They need other Americans to be worse off than themselves. Inequality is a feature, not a bug.
6
I think that too many people in this country equate socialism with communist dictatorships. That is not what socialism or social democracy is.
6
Nearly 90% of Denmark's population is comprised of people of Danish descent, which means having at least one parent born in the country with Danish citizenship. Most of the remaining 10% are immigrants or the descendants of recent immigrants, most of whom came from Turkey, Somalia, Iraq, South Asia, the Middle East, and Bosnia and Herzegovina. About 34% of the non-Danish citizens have a Western background.
Enough said!
3
Countries are best off when they have a combination of capitalism -motivation-and socialism-protection.
@Jack Strausser
And that is called a social democratic system
A quick reminder. It's not just Denmark (Sweden and Norway). Basically all of Europe offers many of the same advantages of Democratic Socialism. There are many variations to choose from if you are convinced that Denmark is somehow "rotten".
7
Most Americans dont unfortunately get their opinions made by the NYT, (or the reference to Hamlet ), so the strawman argument of a small, racially and culturally homogenous Northern European country is not relevant to 320 million people in a very diverse, very divided country.
keep writing articles like this, preaching to the choir, and then you will keep wondering how Trump elected.
4
So, because America is a big and diverse country, Americans should not try to improve their lives, and should be content with high cost of health care, meager salaries, high cost of high education, no maternity leave. What a uplifting message for the great country.
11
Why brother to have a country? Isn't it because we do better together? We can protect ourselves better when we work together. We have more resources to fight enemies. We have more combined brain power to fight enemies. And when all the people are doing better, being smarter, make the country better?
But in the strange world of pure capitalism, i.e., "greed for me and nothing for you" opposes the idea of being a country in common. Should the rich people have their own arm forces to protect only themselves and thus they, the rich would have to serve in the arm forces. Why shouldn't the rich pay for their own highways and infrastructures and police forces. Why do we have common infrastructures and police forces which are basically paid for by the middle class? (The rich can avoid taxes by hiding income in tax loopholes and really do not pay for the common used infrastructures, police forces, government, etc. Just look at Apple which hide all their income in Ireland and thus not pay for any of their use of US government, police forces, arm forces, infrastructures.)
Should we all go back into the jungle and each fight for ourselves? In fact, that seems to be what modern capitalism call for. Our economy seems to be a jungle where the non-rich are, in fact, subsidizing the rich and thus are at a disadvantage.
The idea of the common good is not discussed. In fact, one should steal from the common good, such as clean air, clean water just to make an extra buck.
8
@Dumbdumb It’s interesting that you make this claim when in reality you could not come close to funding our government with the taxes paid by the the bottom 80%, much less the bottom half of taxpayers.
I have a 2nd house in Canada. This small town I visit has no abandoned houses; no slums; no crime; no potholes. People there are polite, happy, they say hello. They travel frequently, more so than most ‘Americans’ (they are Americans also...via the continent) and they seem to lack nothing they need.
8
If the current administration thinks that we have 20 million dollars to spend on a "military parade" to stoke the ego of the baby man residing in the WH...maybe THAT is true socialism. Why not take that 20 million and shore up healthcare, or raise the minimum wage, or send some kids to college, or build affordable housing for the elderly or a vast number of things that would be far more beneficial to the people of America? It seems to me that the GOP is more socialist that the social democrats as they want to have a leader who runs businesses that benefit him and his family, they want to control who gets elected and by whom, and they want to control the media and the information that gets out to the American people. Give me a social democrat any day!
2
@DisillusionedDem I agree that we certainly do not need an expensive military parade. Even though I am an Independent and not a Democrat, I lean toward the belief that Trump is not good for our nation.
Fortunately, those crazy French have enough money to have a parade on Veteran's day!
They are so militaristic and have money to burn!
Another issue in America , if you traveled the world see and lived in other countries, You will find America is too much full of itself. Like Rome in abcient world. beyond the Rome rest is rural or remote.
This is understandable some certain level, after WWII Europe was rendered to rubble , Eastern asia and Africa was backward, middle east was place anybody run over. only south America was something but again remote.
America become center of the world, but thsi reality stop around 1970's and particularly Europe and eastern asia become giant economic hub and prosperity as well as power center. Even Middle east some parts become an important hubs.
Americ is still insisting center of the universe is America, Not really. thsi is 21 century and no way we will be same distance from our followers, Today EU is bigger economy than US and China is catching up.
America should understand teh way of doing business and saying we are the way ended long time ago.
a person who has a commonsense and knowledge accepts one reality, Western Europe is better than USA in every aspect of life. Sorry folks this reality of life.
3
First of all, socialism does not mean "government" ownership of the means of production. It means worker ownership of the means of production, in other words, democratization of the work force. The author is confused by Stalinist-style state socialism and thereby reinforces prevailing stereotypes about socialism. Denmark is simply far more of a social democracy than the US, offering many programs designed to soften the cruel edge of unbridled capitalism. From this perspective, they have been quite successful. Their success should tell us a lot about a social order that does not privilege private profit extracted from workers above all other goals. Perhaps we should go further...
2
There are just not enough Danes in the US for it to be like Denmark.
4
And, then, there's this:
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/01/world/europe/denmark-immigrant-ghetto...
Love your ideas, Paul, but you fell right into the Fox trap. You wasted your time and gave ammunition to those who don’t believe in common sense and live in a parallel reality. They will turn and twist your words and you will come out as a defender of everything they are against. Remember, to them facts don’t matter, so why bother?
1
Have you counted the TERRORISTS living there?
I think many Americans would be fine with socialist programs as long as these programs only benefit white Christians.
1
Paul, you don't understand how the "conservative" thinks; Denmark is a hellhole because govt. spending is close to 50% of GDP, they (de) redistribute income from the rich to the rest and an unimaginable rate and over 2/3 workers unionized. The fact that life in Denmark is good is irrelevant.
5
Excuse me, professor Krugman, but when did facts and Fox news intersect?
1
If there is anything the craven GOP and their shills thrive on is the abject ignorance and the cynical use of their unfortunate electorate.
This is the same Paul Krugman who claimed if Trump won the Presidency the economy would go into a free fall.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/projects/cp/opinion/election-night-2...
and now he's pushing socialism light!
1
I just took in my garbage cans, and lo and behold, Fox News was still stuck at the bottom with a picture of the dummy in chief, Trish Regan looking up at me.
2
Right wing policies problem is hypocrsy.
Communism as we know died and placed in cemetary. But what what happened wild eyed capitalism, Thatcher was touting. No it is still alive but it is in miserable condition See Brexit conservatives and Trump conservatives. Practically thsi group is end of teh road becasue they do not have any new solution in their pocket. Instead theya re playing in hands of 1950 politics. literally they want to set back to clock 1950. how is going to happen.
Ms. rgan gurgled something about denmark not different than Brexiter or Trump conservatives. It was gurgling.
1
socialism
noun
any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods.
Do you receive benefits payments under Social Security, Medicare or Medicaid?
Do you use public streets?
Did you attend public schools or a state university?
Do you send your kids to public school or a state university?
Do you use the interstate highway system?
Do you ever call 911 to get help from first responders (police, fire, emts)?
Do you ever use a public playground, a public park, or a national park?
Do you ever go to a public beach?
Do you ever use a public hospital?
Do you use public water or sewer systems?
Do you ever use the post office?
Do you ever use a public airport?
Do you have your garbage collected by your city or town?
If you said “YES” to any of the above questions, you are a SOCIALIST.
If you think socialism is terrible you better stop using all of those things IMMEDIATELY.
7
Typical of Krugman. Another column based on facts. Doesn't he understand how much he's out of date and out of touch? Get with the program Paul. Nobody cares about reality any more.
6
Comparing Denmark to Venezuela shows the ignorance of Trish Regan and her employer, Fox News, surpassing even Trump, who wants more immigrants from Denmark and her fellow Scandinavian countries. What fools!
5
So, are you coming back ??? Telecommunication, big time. Give me Socialism, or give us Trumpism. Trumpism: doing everything in exactly the opposite manner of President Obama. Hiring incredibly incompetent grifters, liars and criminals for staff positions. Taking extended, superfluous
"Working Vacations" with the Taxpayers paying astronomical sums, for all expenses. Wheeling and dealing on said Vacations, to benefit the Trump Brand. Renting out suites to foreigners at all the Trump properties, decorated in a lovely nouveau trailer park meets Las Vegas. And most of ALL: the Trump Maxim, in which he will absolutely do the most stupid thing possible, in any situation. That's HIS Superpower.
Still coming back ???
Suddenly, Paul Krugman is for democratic socialism — and maybe even Medicare for All!
This is an about-face on his part. A flip-flop, you could say.
After mocking Senator Sanders for 2 years, now Krugman has finally warmed to at least some of what Bernie stands for — and he doesn’t mention his name ONCE.
You are the definition of a hypocrite, Paul Krugman.
And this proves more than any of your columns that it’s time for new blood on the NYT op-ed page.
3
@Thomas D.
To some folks changing your opinion when reviewing facts or gaining new insight is hypocrisy. To many of us, it is called maturity.
3
@Thomas D.
Sometimes telling the difference between Trumpies and renegade Bernie bros is difficult.
Thank you Pr Krugman !
Anything is better than a country that breaks up families and has a clearly racist president.
3
Does the GOP actually have a reasonable position on any issue? The Republican party is filled with haters, imbeciles and those for which money serves as their god!
1
It is unfortunate that today's progressives like Bernie Sanders and Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez are calling themselves socialists. It is a word that, with good reason, repels and scares most Americans, and it does not accurately convey what Sanders et al. stand for. Putting the word "Democratic" in front does not make it more palatable.
1
The only thing that needs to be added is that Denmark was once a place where refugees could get political asylum. Conservatives ran on the issue of immigrants taking advantage of the welfare system. The gov't made adjustments and are now much less friendly to immigrants.
1
The tripe about modern socialism which is common fare on Fox and other righty outlets are just another desperate attempt to divert attention from the soul-sucking banana republicanism that is the pride and joy of America's reactionary billionaires. It's a dead end of debt, servitude and premature death. Good propaganda, though.
8
This was all known three years ago, and Bernie Sanders was the only Democratic voting senator to STILL be going around saying so. Krugman pretended he didn't know that Northern Europe is far more comfortable for the middle class. People have time to eat their dinners slowly while they talk with friends.
Under a King, everything belongs to the king. Power is centralized under the 1%. The whole point of the world democratic revolution was to spread power and wealth outward.
The Declaration of Independence specifically left kings out of the equation. Nature and Natures God creates us All as Equal.
We the People created a Constitution that gives Us (not them, like the last ten thousand years) through our Representatives, the Power to Tax and Regulate Trade to Execute (faithfully, not on a whim) all of the goals in the preamble:
"to form a more perfect Union, establish justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
(Notice it does not say "law and order" but "justice" and "tranquility." With the Bill of Rights, We the People gave ourselves protection from police violence (unless the rest of us do nothing about injustices).
The Age of Revolution shifts just a little bit of power from the !% to the rest of us. Ever since they have been using their skills as salesmen to reverse it.
3
I would agree that "Social-Democratic" has significantly better optics than "'Democratic Socialism"
Ocasio-Cortez would do well t consider amending the title of her popular & common-sense political concept to eliminate the word "socialist" (the 's-word') to "Social-democratic".
Still will not a word about Alexandria's mentor (the B-word)?
& what about that major leg of the social-democratic stool, public college education?
2
@Tldr It's a pity that most proposals, initiatives, ideas, opinions are automatically placed by influencers in categories with names as socialism, communism, capitalistic, etc. Names should not be the criterion on which we base our opinions. Would it not be better to think about the ideas being proposed before deciding whether we are for or against them?
Another interesting stat.
There are about 240,000 millionaires in Denmark, a country of 4.2 million people. That is about 1 millionaire for every 16 people.
In the US there are about 13 million millionaires in a country of about 330 million people. That is roughly 1 in every 25 people.
Some hellhole!!
4
**2nd SUBMISSION** It's the same old Republican con game. Use fear of [fill in the blank]____: immigrants, or socialism (and before that Communists then liberals), or minorities (remember Reagan's "welfare queens" and George H. W. Bush's Willie Horton ad) or China to get people to support the 1 percent who'll then rip them off with tax cuts for themselves while feeding those conned conservative judges, anti-abortion policies and a few other low cost items. This has been going on more or less since William McKinley and left us with The Great Depression and The Great Recession, but the voters keep on buying the snake oil or Kool-Aid. Let's hope they wake up this November. If not, maybe Denmark will take this geriatric immigrant.
3
Danes pay 55% income tax. Let's all pay 55% income tax. Sales tax is very high in Denmark. Let's raise ours. Is 20% good enough for you? Bernie's plan cuts doctor pay by 40%. Would you all like to have your pay cut by 40%? I'm sure you won't mind the sacrifice to have "free" medical care for all, will you?
My grandfather came here from Denmark. I have had friends from Denmark move here-imagine! To this hell hole of capitalist misery. I must say something too about the Danish character as far as happiness: the Danes are not whiners. My grandfather was happy no matter how bad things were. He managed to get a family of 5 kids through the Great Depression and never complained. I'm not saying we don't have problems in this country, but honestly, the socialists paint as dark a picture of America as Trump did in his inauguration speech.
And please, stop denigrating anyone who presents facts you dislike as being ignorant, or a Fox news zombie. It is unreasonable. Use facts and not "could" or "would" in arguments. There is no proof that other countries health systems get better outcomes. We have friends in countries with socialized medicine and are appalled at the poor outcomes and long waits for procedures. You can use testimonials all day long, but where are there facts? Why do so many rich Saudis fly to the Mayo Clinic for health care if our health care is so lousy? They could go anywhere.
3
@pamela Fantastic comment. Another thing most gloss over is that on average, Danes do even better in America than they do in Denmark. Having a strong culture of education and work ethic makes a high difference.
1
"Why do so many rich Saudis fly to the Mayo Clinic for health care if our health care is so lousy?"
Why did Sarah Palin cross the border to get health care in Canada, if our health care is so great?
4
Yep. And this just in: I dunno which "socialized countries," you're on about, but the stats say that they pretty much all have better care cheaper.
Oh, and I really don't see what care for the ultra-rich has to do with the health of nearly all Americans.
2
Professor Krugman... Thank you for pointing out the atrocious, horrifying conditions prevailing in the socialist hell-hole of Denmark. I am a frequent visitor and have marveled at the smiling faces that those folks -- Danes as well as non-Danes living in that country -- put up. I am sure it is the abiding fear of the Danish Gestapo that makes them put up this brave but essentially petrified smiling facade. Thanks for bringing to our attention the 'truth' via Fox News. I just sent a sympathy note to all my connections in Denmark, attaching your revealing article. {wink... wink... ROFL)
2
As ever, Mr. Krugman--thank you. Two stray thoughts:
(1) My wife (this is Norm writing) goes to a Bible study. They're studying a book by a PCA pastor--who, taking his cue from the Old Testament, urges fellow Christians to look out for poor people. Be generous and charitable. Reach out a helping hand.
A woman looked up with an anxious expression. An immensely charitable and giving woman--we all know this. But she was worried.
"That sounds so much like--" (a trembling pause here) "--SOCIALISM."
A rose by any other name! What's in a name? Well--quite a lot. So it seems.
(2) I'm reading a book about the Duke of Wellington. No end of social turmoil throughout much of his life. Especially around 1832. When the First Reform Bill took effect.
"The PEOPLE," declared the Iron Duke, "are rotten to the core. Utterly corrupt. They should be made--by military action if necessary--to knuckle down and SUBMIT."
Rotten? Utterly corrupt? So were they?
No, Your Grace.
They were (in many cases) starving. Destitute. Dragging out their lives in misery and squalor.
Very slowly--throughout the nineteenth century--things got better. VERY slowly. Oh so slowly. But they did.
And the people ceased to be "the scum of the earth." "The rabble." "The dregs of humanity." Et cetera.
They became--fellow citizens.
Make things better for people? A little better? A lot better?
What's wrong with that?
2
In typical American fashion, it seems that the definition of “socialism,” like “liberal,” has become entirely dependent on context and divorced from its original, European definition. As Professor Krugman points out, this is likely due to Republicans, who continually seem to outmaneuver Democrats when it comes to branding their policies.
What I don’t understand is why Democrats allow Republicans to control the national political vernacular in this way. No, many of us don’t believe in government ownership of the means of production, but we sure as hell would appreciate a stronger social safety net!
Recent political events in the U.S. seem to indicate that language matters more than the policies they describe—see “Obamacare”. It’d be refreshing to see Dems take this to heart and start taking more of an active role in shaping the political narrative.
1
@Shirley Liberalism is actually a positive term. It means a belief in individual freedom. It’s a shame that Democrats abandoned that philosophy.
Oh but Dr. Krugman, you missed the most important weakness in the Danish system: the owners of the McDonald's restaurants won't get nearly as wealthy as their U.S. counterparts. Many think this is the American dream: the chance to accumulate great wealth. It is unbridled capitalism that fuels this dream. But some of those uber-wealthy don't understand that if the wealth isn't shared, eventually society collapses and they are dragged down with it.
2
The thing that's ridiculous about this is that they then try to present this as something unique and "exceptional" to the American system. It really isn't - "become as rich as you want and don't worry how many people you step on!" is the belief system of half the warlords in the third world.
1
No doubt it is a wonderful company. But if one looks at countries where innovation is thriving and where new job creation in new sectors takes place, that isn't Denmark. Their top 20 companies encompass utilities, services, banking, tobacco. Novo has their innovation centers in the US. Perhaps that might be relevant in a fact-based discussion.
1
This is a very important column. It is important that those of us advocating for social programs such as Medicare for All make it clear that we are not socialists (except, perhaps, for a very small minority).
sanders and o-c shoot themselves in the foot with their sloppy use of the word socialism. krugman ignores this, and also points it out. by using this word they lose votes.
krugman should point out that the capitalist engine drives social democracies and democratic socialism.
"But U.S. conservatives — like Fox’s Regan — continually and systematically blur the distinction between social democracy and socialism." damn conservatives
"(u.s. liberal Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez),a self-proclaimed socialist. Her platform, however, isn’t socialist at all by the traditional definition. It’s just unabashedly social-democratic. blur
"Representative Spencer Bachus is one of the only people I know from Alabama. I bet I'm the only socialist he knows." blur
@bill zorn Ms. Ocasio-Cortez shoots her self in the foot by being uninformed on political issues. Her number false statements since winning the Democratic house nomination for her district is astounding. It’s like she is trying to keep up with President Trump.
1
We Canadians by and large live better lives than our counterparts in the USA mainly because in Canada citizens believe somewhat in the axiom: we are our brothers' keepers. Throughout American history starting at the very beginning when all that tea was thrown overboard Americans' prime motivation in living life is to make as much money as possible and to hell with my countrymen. My God, in Canada we even have a major political party - now in control under the leadership of Justin Trudeau, called the Liberal!!!
3
Sorry, I simply don't agree with you. Canadian claim to have it better simply because they have a free healthcare.But when you dig a bit deeper, you'll find out about the day, not hours , but day long line up for a simple 10mn doctor visit in a sketchy clinic.It's nearly impossible to have a family doctor unless you were born in Canada, and the hospital care amount to third world quality, with horror stories about mis diagnostic. How many cancer went to third stage because labs and doctors didnt bother calling their patients after a biopsy.
Not mentioning the waiting time for non emergency operation, which can last year...
Canadian, for their own sake, have to stop lecturing others on free healthcare and paying each others in the back.
The US system might be expensive but it comes with quality and professionalism that Canada simply doesnt have.
@john Well you must have had a bad experience. I live in Alberta, have a g.p who will see me with two days notice, have an excellent psychiatrist (as I am bipolar), have been hospitalized a number of times due to this condition and got excellent care, and have had about six regimens of ECT treatments in the past 12 years.
@J. David Burch Furthermore, I lived and worked in NYC from 1995 to 2006 and thought I had excellent insurance through my employer. As for psychiatric treatment I was continually kicked out of hospitals after only a week because the insurance would not pay for it nor would my insurance company pay for ECT treatment.
While I'm sure that people who regularly appear on Fox News would have problems finding Denmark on a map, I am equally sure that the elite in the U.S. know damn well what Democratic Socialism is and they want nothing to do with it because it would cut into their profits. This is why there has been such an active brainwashing campaign in the U.S. against Democratic Socialism: this system of government does not allow a thin sector of elite to cash in on the backs of everyone else. In order to maintain the American system, we have to keep everyone in survival mode or so poorly educated that they are easily manipulated into believing that a system that is abusing them on every front is a legitimate (and thriving) democracy.
Much more needs to be said about the fact that none of this is a mistake or a simple "ideological" difference. Our country looks the way it does because it is a plutocracy, and those in control intend to keep it that way.
6
Readily available, quality health care that won't break the bank. Affordable, quality education for all. Affordable child care. Jobs for most everyone who wants to work, with fair wages and benefits and ample time off. A low crime rate, without raging gun violence every day of the year, punctuated by the occasional 'mass shooting.' A secure old age. And to top it all off, no reality television, Jerry Springer Show, outrage of the day style government to keep folks on edge from the time they pour their morning coffee until their heads hit the pillow at night.
Sounds as though life in Denmark really sucks! Good thing 'it can't happen here,' ain't it? USA! USA! USA! We're Number One! Lock Her Up! Build The Wall!
Just kidding.
4
The attacks on Obamacare as "socialist" were curious, not only because it was similar to a conservative think tank Heritage Foundation plan and was its prototype was implemented by a Republican governor, but its similar to the Swiss system that still retains private insurance companies but regulates them similar to utilities. The public power concept predated the New Deal and was championed in the 20's by Republican senator Edward Norris from Nebraska, so this concept that has worked with power and could work in health care - if not actively sabotaged - is over a hundred years old.
2
@Milliband Great point which I have repeated many times.
1
In the book “The Nordic Theory of Everything”, the authors points out that many of Scandinavia’s ‘socialist’ ideas actually came from the US. They learned from us after WWII and took off with it. And we somehow became more corrupt. So that’s my response to all the people who say we’re too diverse for it to work here. (They wouldn’t want to have to pay for benefits for brown people!)
Also, as a new parent, I’m seriously concerned about our neglect of kids age 0-5. I know so many [middle class] people who use crappy childcare to save a couple hundred bucks per month. Poor kids are getting passed around to friends and relatives while their caretakers are supposed to be sleeping. It seems obvious that we have a serious mental health issue in this country because we don’t care about kids. (My upper middle class German friend pays $75/mo for good quality, bilingual daycare for her two year old.)
1
I was in Denmark last summer. It was heavenly.
3
Many Americans are either too lazy, too ignorant of, or not intelligent enough to read about, analyze, and thus formulate a reasoned opinion on what's good for them, what works, and what these approaches to government cost. For them it's sufficient to listen to their favorite commentator, politician, or neighborhood leader and then adopt his viewpoints and repeat them to anyone who might (likewise) be unable to evaluate objectively the subject at hand. It is sufficient to convince them that the "ism" being discussed is either bad or good, and then anything that can be described as a part or that "ism" is, without any thought, also bad or good. I attribute this to deficiencies in the educational systems in the U.S. The Danes do very well at educating their kids, and the results show.
3
Having visited two 'socialist' hellholes myself, I can enthusiastically second Paul Krugman's description of life there and his description often way their economies work. These nations have market economies with capitalism's excesses mitigated by rational, moderate government intervention when circumstances warrant.
3
Americans, and even Canadians, should pause to think of the WASTED human capital born in our slums, native reserves and broken homes: how many "Einsteins", as babies and young children, have we failed to nurture or even give a fighting chance to? How much have we lost by choosing to live in greedy, dog-eat-dog societies? While most of the ultra rich party and dream up new ways to find thrills and adorn themselves with baubles, hundreds of millions go without food, shelter and basic education. What is wrong with humans? Is it going to take a Revolution?
One could 'tinker' with northern Europe's social democratic setup...but it is fundamentally correct. The Government covers basic medical care, education and basic retirement: people work to upgrade from that level...and you don't have to worry about your 'back' because people have so little, that they have 'nothing to lose'. Except for the rich, and corrupt politicians, any sane person would endorse it. Go visit it and see. Smell the coffee, look in the mirror and then vote social democrat (with some policy changes to suit your country).
6
I haven’t read Paul in a while, mostly because while he talks a good social-democratic game, when push came to shove in 2016, he started attacking the candidate most in line with those values pretty viciously and relentlessly.
All hat, no cowboy as we say in Queens.
Paul seems to have learned his lesson after his pretty baseless attacks on Sanders divided and embittered the left and helped lead to the election of Trump. Now, in contrast, Paul’s words about Ocasio-Cortez’ views are only gently condescending.
And here we have the problem.
While centrist Democrats are learning to talk like social democrats, when push comes to shove— all hat, no cowboy. Social democratic ideas or politicians are still treated as cute outliers or “something we already believe in” but just haven’t gotten around to implementing yet.
Will the next Democratic President give bankers a bailout rather than a haircut after crashing the economy, the way Obama did? Will the next Democrat offer to cut Social Security to fix the debt while mostly leaving alone our dangerously bloated military budget, as Obama did?
I don’t trust you anymore, Paul, and I don’t trust most long term Democrats.
Talk is cheap. Time to belly up to the bar and show us what’s under that hat.
4
I don't know, I thought the fact that I was actually able to buy health insurance that would've been well beyond my means until the ACA rolled around was a nice head of cattle. But what do we plebs know about such things - we should shut up and let our glorious TRUE socialist overlords tell us what we need.
Dear Krugman you couldn't have said it more clearly that in American political discourse, anyone who wants to make life in a market economy less nasty, brutish and short gets denounced as a socialist.
There is astounding hypocrisy of these American political class not wanting to look at the brutally revealing statistics of its own laissez-faire economy. It's "income tax data to show how highly concentrated income was in the hands not just of the top 10 or 20 percent of households but the top 1, 0.1, or even 0.01 percent".
No wonder that there is far more misery in America than there needs to be.
Brutality of law of jungle fittest survival based American economy prompted Thomas Piketty to publish his seminal work Capital in the 21st Century, the most important economics book of the recent times.
Sum up of the Piketty's work.
• The ratio of wealth to income is rising in all developed countries.
• Absent extraordinary interventions, we should expect that trend to continue.
• If it continues, the future will look like the 19th century, where economic elites have predominantly inherited their wealth rather than working for it.
• The best solution would be a globally coordinated effort to tax wealth.
2
So very, very true. When will the American public wake up to the snow job that Wall Street and its little friends in both parties have perpetrated on them. Why was Goldman Sachs so happy to pay ridiculous speaking fees to prominent Democrats -- i doubt it was from the kindness of their heart.
Average Americans have been sold down the river by the political class, who have nicely feathered their own nests as they protected their incumbency through gerrymandering.
2
As usual, Krugman you've got it all wrong. Americans don't WANT income equality, affordable health care, usable mass transit, or effective government. Americans want to be super-rich fearful and completely MISERABLE. You know, like Trump, our nations role model.
2
I wish I could move to Denmark. I try not to regret that failed relationship I once had with a Dane. The language is a little tricky though. The grammar is easy enough but the pronunciation messes with English speakers. It's familiar enough to become deceiving but different enough to knock the wind out of you at times. I usually stuck to English or German. Spanish isn't common and my French is terrible so I don't even bother.
That said, you sort of say "duh" to Paul Krugman's assessment. We know most Americans would prefer Denmark to America if they weren't too lazy to acculturate themselves. That odd blend of liberty and public security does in fact produce happier lives.
The enemies of socialistic societies like to portray all socialism as a demonized echo of Stalinist Russia. I'd first point out that communism is not socialism. I'd also point out communism is definitely not democratic socialism. I'm not sure why people confuse these words. Part of the beauty of the English language is our variety and precision. Act like you understand the language.
The question I have to ask is why didn't the Democratic party embrace this understanding in 2016? Paul Krugman himself is on public record endlessly supporting a candidate who was at best indifferent to the idea of American socialism. Bernie Sanders is an imperfect messenger but he had the right idea. Why did the Democratic establishment reject the idea until after we suffer Trump? We probably won't like the true explanation.
The conservative right has done a tremendous job in disseminating the propaganda the "socialist" countries Denmark are some kind of hellhole as compared to the United States. But obviously the truth is far from that. When one looks at the roots of these untruths, the eventually emanate from those who are at the 1% economic level, trying to make us believe social equality in economics will destroy capitalism, and their position is the only correct one.
As someone has stated "it is the rich trying to convince that the middle class that their problems are caused by the poor". In reality, it is the Uber rich that are the cause of most of the misery in the world.
1
@Michael Panico I see the world in stark contrast to this idea. The wealthiest actually prevent the most amount of misery. Generally speaking, you have to either invent something of high value, have a high level of productive focus, create a great deal of efficiency, or invest in something that meets these criteria in order to become very wealthy. All of these things create positive results for humanity.
"Generally speaking, you have to either invent something of high value, have a high level of productive focus, create a great deal of efficiency, or invest in something that meets these criteria in order to become very wealthy."
Or just make your money the old fashioned way, inherit it, as a Republican politician said a few years back.
As a German living in Denmark I can only say this : healthy and well educated people are the biggest asset a nation and a society can have. Investing in these is far from socialism- it may rather be considered prudent economic policy. It’s good for society in general, too. I find it telling - and deeply frustrating- that many in the US can’t tell the important difference between the various forms of social democracies, incl. the various differences and benefits. I learned a lot from my new home country and wish the US would, too.Thanks, Mr Krugman, for picking up the topic!
8
I'm a socialist. There. I said it.
I believe in a good education of high quality for every child, and college available and affordable to all who want it.
I believe in good high quality medical care affordable and accessible to everyone, with the emphasis on healthy living and preventive care.
I believe in good roads and bridges, well maintained and carefully designed and constructed.
I believe in parks, nature preserves, and careful stewardship of the environment and our natural resources.
I believe in a future of careful energy use, primarily from renewable and non-polluting sources.
I believe in broadly distributed public transport, affordable and accessible to all who wish to travel by means other than private vehicles. I think our cities should focus on alternatives to autos to make the city environment more walking and people-friendly.
I believe humanity's future is in space, and that we should actively pursue space exploration and development of the resources and energy abundant there.
I believe in fair and open elections publicly funded, with spending and duration limits on all candidates, free of corporate and foreign interference.
I guess this makes me hopelessly socialist, there's nothing that can save me... oh well.
11
It would be most productive for political candidates to educate Americans on the social networks countries like Denmark provide in order to enhance the quality of life for citizens as opposed to the Corporate Socialism that exists here.
When a living wage is denied to employees, they are forced to apply for government assistance in able to survive, is not that corporate Socialism along with massive other examples?
Despite what most people think it is a convoluted, humiliating process, sheer drudgery to work everyday with no opportunity to enjoy life. You are blind to positives in the future and think at night how you will manage the next disaster.
Corporate profit has been made on the backs of those who can least afford it's. Bring on the progressives, yes tear down walls and build a new foundation because the one we have is beyond repair.
4
Bingo, Mr. Krugman! You are indeed the voice of sensible liberalism and yes, social democracy. Yes, this is what Democrats believe in at the end of the day. The media focus on interparty warfare of ideas is overhyped. One day, maybe our grandchildren will look back on this time and shake our heads: "Americans looked down on basic community?"
2
One thing that sets many modern successful countries apart from the US (which is falling behind in every descriptor except GDP) is this: they are secular. I do not have the explanation for this corollary, but I know it is true. Maybe Paul could explore this in one of his more political columns. Maybe this is why Denmark has banned the muslim attire for women in the town square and has insisted that immigrant children get schooled in danish (secular?) values. I would say that the US of my youth was perhaps more religious if the measurement is church attendance or membership. But the unfettered power and access of today's evangelical christians is something new, and is a danger to our core value of separation of church and state--- an aspect of the USA which was admired and embraced by countries all over the world as they built their own democracies. I think the question is would we prefer to be like Catholic Mexico or Muslim Saudi Arabia, or do we want to be more like secular Denmark?
3
Denmark is a tiny, homogeneous country where citizens share a relatively common upbringing, cultural values, education, and economic strata.
In contrast, the United States is a humongous mess, where the cacophony of competing interests, ideologies, and diverse cultures continuously tear apart our nation’s unity.
Therein lies the difference.
4
@Shenoa-You fail to explain why the difference has anything to do with it? It isn't just "tiny" Denmark that has living standards, fairness, and equality above the United States though. Countries like Germany, Norway, New Zealand, Sweden, Finland, Japan, the Netherlands, Switzerland, Australia, etc all surpass the United States in many measures.
7
@Alex....countries with a relatively homogeneous citizenry are better able to cooperate with one another for the greater good.
Human beings are tribal. You may define ‘the tribe’ as sharing the same economic background, or the same education, or the same religion, or ethnicity, or any other way....but ‘commonality’ is key. What used to be a common ‘American’ identity no longer exists.
And yet somehow, the Right's always yelling at us about American values.
3
As in physics, there is a fundamental difference between "open" and "closed" social systems. A closed system, like Denmark, will set their immigration numbers only to point where the immigrants and their dependents will have adequate employment, health care, education, etc.. They actually count each seat or place at their universities for students (not just faculty). This level of regulation is only possible (and needed) in closed systems. Better to look at Canada, Australia, New Zealand and other New World, open economies for pointers.
2
Missing from this comment section is the misconception that the Danes(or France, Germany, Sweden,et àl) pay higher taxes than we do here in the U.S. The reality is much closer to 'about the same'. The outflow of our earned income suffers not so much from the yearly Federal, State, Local tax filing, but from all the 'hidden taxes' we all have to pay.
So what's a hidden tax? It is any and all money we have to pay just stay alive, and more significantly, in what lifestyle we wish to exist. So from a paycheck to paycheck existance(which includes most people) to one that allows you or me to go out to restaurants, buy the latest electronic devices, to the luxury car of our choice, and topping the list is what neighborhood to choose to live, which includes how big is our home. Much of this can be chalked up to 'having the means' to be able to 'pay to play'.
Recognizing the limits of one's ability to make more expensive choices, particularly in our toxic environment of the huge inequality of wealth we still find hidden taxes that everyone pays. Healthcare(and dental) is top of the list. Insurance premiums, co-pays, deductibles, and some elective medical procedures are literally paid by everyone (Likewise vehicles). Compared to the universal big pot of tax paid system the numbers(of dollars) begin to get very close. Then comes Then there are dozens of other kinds of direct taxation: sales, gas, property, other purchases, and so forth. At least Danes get something for their money.
6
@C. Coffey
Very good point. Many Americans continually fail to realize that at the end of the day, even if they end up with a few more dollars in their pocket, when they have to pay out considerably more in healthcare and education costs and all the things you mention, ultimately, they could end up with same or less than the Danes or any other country that falls under the same category.
Republicans continue to hoodwink many into thinking it is about choices when it really is not. If one's minimum wage is so low that they have to work two or three jobs and still can't afford healthcare, there are no choices.
Ultimately, it always depends on the society an individual prefers to reside. If one prefers the "dog eat dog, winner take all, winners and losers society that Republican leadership and this current administration promotes, then America is "right up your alley".
If you don't, start electing those representatives that will actually do something about it.
2
I spent some time in Denmark back in the 1980's and am happy to hear that it hasn't changed and I can still consider it the most civilized place on Earth. If it wasn't for the cold weather and lack of sunlight in the wintertime I would consider it the ideal place to live.
By the way I have extensively traveled outside the U. S. and I still rank Denmark above any other country. There are only 2 things I have found in any other country that are better than in Denmark. French food and Paris. Don't get me wrong; the food in Denmark is very good but I found that even French fast food is better than what you get in the United States in most fancy restaurants. Copenhagen was my favorite city in the world until I visited Paris. So now Copenhagen is my second favorite city in the world.
Also Denmark has the friendliest people I have met anywhere, ever.
5
The big difference between Denmark and the United States is one of size and taxation. The United States is far bigger than Denmark and has responsibilities throughout the world. Denmark is mainly responsible just for itself. Since the USA is the leader of the free world (including Denmark), it has an obligation to maintain a huge defense establishment. Americans have been willing to, in effect, subsidize countries like Denmark with our military power.
The second important factor is the impact of government spending on the private economy. Both countries have substantial government resources devoted to social programs. The difference is that Denmark has about half of its economy devoted to social programs; the USA about 35%. Thus, Danes pay about half their personal income to fund the social programs; Americans pay less than 25%. In order for us to have the democratic socialism of Denmark, most Americans would have to pay at least 50% of their income to fund these programs.
1
@JAM Many of us would like to re-apportion the gigantic chunk of money spent on the "huge defense establishment" and believe that we have NO obligation to maintain it. Why are we the "leader of the free world" when many of our own people don't have access to basic health care or food? Those dollars would be better spent on promoting the general welfare than providing a common defense.
2
The trouble is that the benefits of social democracy will also extend to brown and black people. That is so un-American for those who support the GOP.
3
Mr. Krugman makes more sense without the distraction of a Clinton Administration audition, it seems.
2
Universal Health Care has just been endorsed by the National Catholic Review. Apparently, they just found out that the Catholic Catechism teaches that HEATH CARE IS A RIGHT; it also TEACHES THAT JOINING A UNION IS A RIGHT; it also teaches THAT WE ARE TO WELCOME THE STRANGER, THAT MEANS IMMIGRANTS AND REFUGEES. Can it be conservative Catholics are that dumb that they never knew this, were too lazy to read it, or just chose to ignore it. Maybe the backward vision and rulings of PJII are finally being seen for what they were, keeping the church in the past and denying the reality of life today. The National Catholic Review urges all catholic communities to support Universal Heath Care. Where was the National Catholic Review when Catholics voted against President Barack Obama because? They are racist, as many are, they objected to free benefit of birth control of the ACA in their fallacious thinking that they would be complicit if they liked the ACA and voted for Pres. Obama? That thinking shows the Catholics who do not know Jesus, do not understand free will, or have no clue on the meaning of Primacy of Conscience. For these reasons they denied health care that was affordable and available to all. What is the sin here? The answer is clear. The only honest priest I know of said" I have good health care, I bet all of you here today have good health care, your vote (for Obama and the ACA) will means health care for all. This you should do".
Two things: a lot of the prejudice against immy-grants is tangled up with this sort of prejudice against Catholics.
And Catholics such as Aquinas INVENTED the discussion of free will, and hmanism too, for that matter.
Private enterprise is fine--American capitalism is generally rotted to the core. American capitalism is propelled by raw greed. Not only greed to amass money, but greed to accumulate enough power to dictate to the 'democratic government' --to control the legal system and corrupt elected governance for the benefit of corporate prosperity.
In my lifetime I have witnessed polarized wealth cause societies to resort to insurrection: Egypt, China, Vietnam, Iran, Spain, S Africa and others. In recent history, France and Russia comes to mind.
The wealth factor in our nation has become more important than citizen's welfare, common decency and promoted moral turpitude.
7
Pretty sure the USA will never be like any Nordic country but we can make progress. The most important foreword step would be universal health care. As the last advanced nation to have such a system we are in a unique position to observe the best practices from the other advanced nations and develop a system with the best aspects of other systems. The biggest hurdle is overcoming the astounding level of ignorance that exists in the electorate of our great nation. I expect much of that can be attributed to most people not traveling abroad and to buying into the nonsense that this country is simply the greatest at everything.
7
Universal health would be a lot more affordable in the US if we had tort reform and changed medical malpractice claims to work similar workers' comp claims. This would eliminate most malpractice lawsuits, reduce the cost of insurance and greatly reduce the cost of health care. Some patients would be worse off, as would a lot of lawyers, but our society would benefit greatly, particularly the neediest.
Any attempt to change our healthcare system that does not do this will fail.
2
Yes, give us some of that old time socialism-communism, so that we all could benefit from what Eastern Europeans were very eager to dump.
@Older and wiser, it seems that Western Europeans are quite happy with their “socialism-communism” as you put it.
And it seems to work quite well for them.
Having travelled around Europe quite a bit it’s impressive how many of the “socialist-communist” countries like Germany, France, the Netherlands, and yes, Denmark, have better infrastructure, better services, better health care, and better work life balance than we do.
So yes, please sign me up. I’ll take that kind of hellhole any day.
4
@Objectively Subjective So why don't you move there since in your mind it's so much better there?
For me, this country was and is the greatest.
In the American political market place of ideas, of course, arguments for a Danish-style market economy and social welfare fall on deaf ears. That will never change unless liberal U.S. education can reach everyone. I think that has little impact in about half the country.
I think this will never change. The U.S. is too big and there is too much of it where ignorance can remain untouched. What we can do is try to demonstrate the value of progressive ideas in these places. The ACA has certainly made a difference, though it's been said that in many of the neediest areas of the U.S. where the ACA has made a great difference and benefit, attempts are made by officials to hide the fact that it's "Obamacare."
So, political propaganda is with us no matter what we try to do. With a change in political fortunes, progressiveism can and will rise again. But, if experience should be our teacher, even with the greatest gains of controlling both congress and the presidency, liberal progressives in this country will have a chance to do maybe one good big thing. And then, there is a back-lash from the right and years of stagnate progress for social and economic justice.
This pattern will persist until influences like right wing radio, Fox News and Evangelicals lose their influence over the American people. I think something more is needed, even beyond liberal education.
In any case, we need to be very careful about the next big thing we choose. My choice: free four year college education
2
@jstevend Certainly agree but wonder just how many would choose 4 years of college even if it’s free—hopefully a large majority.
I’m for adding another wish to list, too. Health care for all would benefit even more citizens. Maybe we should re-institute a “Civics” class in both middle school and high school while we’re at it!
2
Wow, for my lifetime I always thought of myself as a Newdealer, when I was really a social-democrat. Well what we have now is fascism, without
any Vaselene and a new kind of small government which is a the police state where we put children in cages and destroy families to make an example and people have to hide immigrant friends and neighbors without papers from Trump’s political Storm Troopers, like they hid Jews in Denmark from the Nazis. .
The Democrats should embrace social democracy because that is the only way to make life better, more secure and more democratic. The problem is that the American government is unAmerican and it lies about everything and considers the free press the enemy of the people.
For most of my adult life I had a social safety net, SS, Medicare, Medicaid, unemployment insurance, etc., etc, which the GOP called socialism and resisted and is now trying to destroy. There has been a great right wing conspiracy for decades and decades with the end result being our fascist government and it cannot tolerate any comparison with a nation like Denmark.
Of course we have something in the USA that Denmark does not, which is hate, racism, spite, gun violence and rampant political corruption which is hardly compatible with social democracy but suits fascism to a tee.
1
Once upon a time, there was a Soviet Union. There was Nazi Germany. They are both gone now (though Putin would love to reunite Eastern Europe and the Baltic states in Russia). But all efforts, since 1939, to bring about universal healthcare, have been killed by cat calls of "socialism." "Do you want what Stalin and Hitler have created?"
And thus, the endless confusion of "socialism" and universal healthcare created and perpetuated by PR shills for the health insurance industry. A "social-democratic" society will be a hard sell in November simply because it will take too long to educate illinformed Americans — voters and politicians — on the differences between a "socialist state" and the successful social-democratic societies.
In this polarized political environment where more than 40 percent of Americans know little or nothing about how governance and economics are dovetailed together for the sake of the people, we are in for a rough ride for a few generations to come.
Trump's followers are too thick-sculled and thin-skinned to accept the truth about anything. Agent Orange in the Oval Office uses his rallies and disjointed, fact-free speeches, just as Hitler, Mussolini and every other dictator before him, to demand loyalty at all costs.
Yes, Denmark is not America. It is tinier. The people are less diverse. But it is "one for all, and all for one" in Denmark.
By contrast, Trump will likely eliminate "e pluribus unum" from American discourse.
2
A small still fairly homogenous country like Denmark makes an unfair comparison to the United States. Take NYC, where unions are strong, Democrats rule, a large chunk of the population receives income based benefits such as housing, health-care, free lunch and breakfast at school (all students), and so on. Our subway is collapsing, filthy and ugly. The streets look nothing like the pretty photo I'm seeing here. Courthouses are dirty, jails are horrible, the justice system is slow and those who run it are liberal as can be. This isn't Denmark.
Incredible Fox News mouth piece Ms Regan would say such a stupid thing. But then her audience is composed of white males who have never traveled outside their country to a place like Denmark. Of course not. But how insulting to them to rail such idiotic lies only to prove how sorely uneducated they are. An even bigger tragedy is our severely underfunded public education system has let millions of people down by generations of lack of funding for poor public schools where education is sorely needed. We need national funding of our public school system just like universal health care. Sound bodies and sound minds will make america great again. The Fox Trump diet is making America very very sick. The terrible truth is Republicans dont like spending money on people they dont like. My neighbor a rancher tells me this candidly.
3
The fundamental and mutually exclusive difference is that scandanavians believe they are nothing as individuals without the government. The system then dictates this truth. Americans will always be independent me first small government who can barely agree on supporting the less fortunate. The american opportunity is the opportunities it provides for its people to force their way thru. The scandanavian version is no man fails, only society that fails a man. If we keep handing out participation trophies the next generation might appreciate this. The focus of foxs idiocy should have been on denmarks value of mediocracy and a non merit based systems. It hates and kills exceptionalism and motivation for anything beyond whats presented in front of you. I am scarred to death for my 4yr old daughter... Denmark can only prepare her for the vacuum of Denmark and will fail her the world over.
Reagan back in the 50's released an album regarding the "terrors" of "socialized" medicine thereafter making mere word socialism a dirty one. You can't even say the word w/out getting shouted down. How sad Americans are so stupid they continue to vote against themselves their children.
Let me ask those who are against "socialized" medicine why you think YOUR taxes should not cover your medical needs thereby releasing employers from providing price gouging insurance plans so you can finally get a raise? Why would continue to use a system whose primary goal is to bankrupt it's users?
No the ONLY reason there is such an outcry regarding minor socialization is that the greedy welfare receiving billionaires do want to pay their share they want YOU to pay their taxes.
We've got to be the dumbest nation on earth.
Trish Regan is stoking the basic arrogance of the typical, backward looking, middle class, white conservative that pines for 1950's America. An America that is number one in the world mainly because 2 world wars have left the rest of the world in tatters. Fox news junkies resent the heck out of Europe because Europe has had the temerity to catch up (and pass, in some respects) with the US.
Anyone who has spent time in Denmark (I visit Copenhagen once every year, for business) knows that it is a veritable paradise.
Helping others truthfully creates a country that is clean, healthy, and a pleasure to live in.
2
Americans aren't stupid, but they are extremely ignorant and easy to manipulate, playing on fear and ignorance, along with justification of a little greed and prejudice through religion and cherry-picked "facts" taken out of context.
And the basic US education system doesn't do anything to change this situation, especially in red states. By design.
I am not optimistic
1
Democrats, retire "socialism/t" from your identity.
Become COMMUNITARIAN Democrats.
Are you listening, Bernie?
2
@Aniz. So true. Democrats really should be smart enough to avoid attaching Socialist or Socialism to a political party or program.
1
By the standards of Fox News and the GOP Eisenhower was a socialist...
3
It must have been a "Great" vacation far from the madding crowd. You seem to be dreaming, but hey!, it worked for Martin Luther King, right?
I think Professor Krugman does not fully appreciate just how poisonous the word "socialism" is, in America, thanks to 50+ years of right-wing propaganda. Many Americans, the moment they just hear that word, think Stalin, Mao, or jack-booted thugs telling them what to do, and they just freak out, in their stupidity.
His whole point was that while that's mostly been true in the last half century plus, that's changing now. Largely because the right has misused the word so much that it long ago stopped meaning anything other than "what teabaggers and one percenters call everything they don't like." And when that's the definition, suddenly it ain't so bad!
Ms Conway made the GOP talking points plain on ABC last Sunday...and the BIG one was how they are going to paint Dems as SOCIALISTSOCIALISTSOCIALIST!!!!
DR. Krugman places much faith in the democratic electorate, subject to a half century or more of OUR Oligarchs' propaganda in favor of THEIR system, being able to handle Occam's very narrow splitting of hairs between Socialism and "social-democracy", especially given Socialism is a large Venn diagram that includes social democracy, along with Communism (Communism being the version actually based on ownership of all means of production, while Proud'houm, as one, favored worker's cooperative ownership, Bethany, too).
(Besides, one can argue that the rails- not the service providers, should be federally owned, like the Interstate Highways, and Post Office. Just as an example of GOOD COMMIE-ism)
Getting lost splitting hairs as the GOP is splashing a Crimson Tide (screaming KALI!...scuse me Ringo, I digress) of rhetorical paint all over you is a recipe for-
an actual toxic Red Tide.
Social Security, Full Public Health funding, Public Schools are all Socialist, goo,d and worth keeping. The GOP is Privatizing them. There's the winning point(s).
Girding one's loins to somehow argue for "equal opportunities" when the concept is a Big Lie prima facie can only make sense if one is on the Oligarch's payroll …
taking whatever they offer, to quote 16's Loser ...
It's hard for me to believe that Social Darwinism is still alive in Amerika -
but it's true!
1
It is a simple and childish mind that thinks that we cannot balance social programs with entrepreneurial opportunities. Unfortunately, the bulk of the US population are a bit dim and somewhat masochistic. There is not a single successful advanced nation that doesn't have elements of socialism and capitalism.
The poor and middle class of the US consistently say "Thank you sir, may I have another". I guess the pain makes them feel alive, or maybe they feel they don't deserve a descent life and should suffer. When I look at the dolts who attend Trump rallies I think that they may be correct in that regard.
8
Republicans don't want safety nets, to them safety nets are for losers and take away $ from their wealthy capitalist patrons and their personal campaign coffers. Just think what would happen to the banking industry if they were forced to drain all of those offshore accounts. Far be it for me to deny that private jet, bigger yacht, ostrich coat, pair of Ferragamo's or 7th or 8th mega mansion to that poor suffering rich guy. Did we really expect Scott Pruitt to fly coach with us commoners and breathe the same air. I am content with using our tax dollars to fly trumps substantial two seater girth and his entourage to weekly golf at his clubs and bill the the taxpayer for the trip. Afterall he works that little finger on his little hands hard tweeting everyday the wisdom of his great mind. He likes to entertain his Russian Communist buds at Mara Lago. If that means cutbacks in Medicare, Medicaid and children's school lunches so be it. We can reasonably be expected to deny a veteran treatment for PTSD's but can we realistically deprive a Russian oligarch caviar. Just remember as Mitt said we are "takers". MAGA.
2
If you keep in mind that politics in USA is powered by racial animosity, it all makes sense.
1
The way Fox and other right wing news organizations talk about “the horror, the horror!” of living in socialist countries (i.e. progressive Western democracies) like Denmark you’d think they were talking about “Mordor.”
With a safety net which includes universal healthcare, generous paid vacation and maternity leave, quasi free higher education, and none of the egregious and growing income inequality so much on display in the U.S., believe me, Denmark is more like “Rivendell.” Just ask the Danish “elves.”
2
Progressivists like to suggest that folks in socialist countries like Denmark are happier than folks in USA. Folks in socialist countries may very well be more content, like a baby given a bottle or dog given a bone. Happiness, however, is an accomplishment and result of pursuit/hard work. Happiness cannot be achieved where and when so much is given that could
and should be earned be earned. Unemployment is highest in US where Democrats rule, as is crime and misery in general.
"The bigger the government, the smaller the citizen."
~Dennis Prager
Yeah, that SOUNDS nice, but the whole “reality” thing always trips up this narrative. Check out the productivity numbers for these countries. Turns out shorter work weeks and more vacation actually helps people accomplish more.
2
Unemployment is highest where Democrats rule as is crime and misery in general, says Philpy.
I would point out that blue states are more highly educated, have longer life expectancies, higher incomes, lower poverty, and in fact, less misery (however defined) the red states, however, I think Philby would just deny these easily verifiable facts as “FAKE NEWS” and go back to a diet of Faux News nonsense.
“You are entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts....” ah, those were the days.
1
Dr. Krugman: We can safely affirm that Danes have not been brain washed to be scared by the mention of "socialism" like the Americans, so they do not vote against their own interest like Americans do.
It is ridiculous to see low level employees bragging that they are "Republicans", which reminds me of an old man saying: In America, the definition of "moron" is not being rich and being Republican.
1
What is it with the right, they either lie or are just ignorant and have no interest in learning anything.
2
@Daniel A. Greenbaum. They been seduced by social issues, such as anti-abortion, some perverse version of family values, fundamentalist religion, gun rights and the idea that the “other” is the cause of all ills.
1
Denmark is a cesspool of misery, sickness, poverty, social unrest, and total political unrest. Just ask any Conservative.... who has never been there ... and are constant consumers of right wing talking points.
1
No. No. No. Tricia is right and Paul is wrong. Denmark is rotten to the core. Close your eyes!. Stick your head in the sand, and above all don't go there lest you be infected by the scourge of generous health care, low tuition, plentiful jobs, lavish free time, and that dreaded socialist plague of happiness.
2
Trish Regan's ignorant comments are hardly surprising coming from a Fox News mouthpiece given that just yesterday on that beacon of intellectual thought, Fox & Friends host Ainsley Earhardt reminded us about the time America defeated “communist Japan.”
And an administration whose secretary of Homeland Security, Kirstjen Nielsen, when asked at a senate hearing, “Norway is a predominantly white country, isn’t it?” she responded, “I actually do not know that, sir, but I imagine that is the case.”
Now perhaps each of these people know that they are lying and they are really not THAT stupid. But based on what comes out of the White House these days, I can't be sure.
1
That’s what people of Regan’s ilk do, either lie or spew ignorance. Whether it’s a slimy creature such as Santorum saying socialised healthcare destroyed the British Empire (though isn’t that a win anyway?) or the boring stream of “Islamisation in Europe”, “no-go areas”, “no freedoms” or “Londonistan”, these people constantly misrepresent or misinterpret. It gets rather wearying.
One explanation of course is that they’re just stupid and genuinely believe that. Alternatively - and probably correctly - they do it to scare people into following their agenda. Keep being scared of the Other, keep voting for us or our side!
Looks like you've finally decided to come over to the light side, Paul. We Democratic Socialists welcome you, but do wonder what took you so long.
5
If Dr Krugman found his Utopia in Denmark why doesn't he simply relocate there? I'm sure he'd have no trouble obtaining Danish citizenship and filing his columns from Copenhagen.
Dr. Krugman,
Everything about your article makes so much sense. I don't feel it will ever happen here unless the Dems take back both the House and the Senate and can establish new campaign finance laws to get a good chunk of money out of politics and return some power to the people. It would also be helpful if they could restore funding for public education so people can make informed decisions on who and what exactly they are voting for. Right now the propaganda being spewed from the far right is being eaten like candy by the followers of Trump. Denmark's looking better all the time.
2
@Diane Kropelnitski,
This will never happen. The US Supreme Court has declared that money is speech and corporations are people. So how in the world are you ever going to beat this combination?
Much has been made of Alexandria Ocasio Cortez because many post-primary election win statements by her raise questions about her grasp of fundamental policy realities and basic facts (e.g., monthly premiums for health care are not "taxes" as a consequence of the Supreme Court decision on the constitutionality of the ACA).
1
Those countries are worth investigating but keep a few things in mind; they can't defend themselves and the "live longer"stats are probably from WHO which includes murders and car accidents. Also, I thought most studies showed Americans happier than the Euros, esp from the Nordic; and part of the reason is Americans embrace risk and aspiration more. And as always with socialism or quasi or whatever you call this you need to ask always and often "how are you going to pay for this?"
1
@robmac
Following the end of WWII, Clement Attlee gave Britain socialized medicine. How would you like to try and deprive the British of their socialized medicine? Are you prepared for the thunderous howling?
Could not make a better case for the politics of promoting social democracy over democratic socialism. The right is blinded by ideology that's left over from the Cold War that ended when the Berlin Wall came down. Remember that? But Democrats need to modernize their own messages about healthcare for all and a living wage, about public works and restoration of infrastructure and investment in schools, training and higher ed. All these are social goods that a just democratic society assures to their citizens, and to stimulate economic growth. Social Democracy. It's not government ownership and it's not rocket science. And it's more than putting lipstick on a pig. It's a whole philosophy of governance, that steers its courses democratically, but with a much more sophisticated concept of what constitutes a just and free society. There's freedom from a host of preventable evils--hunger, disease, gun crime, ignorance and joblessness, as well as freedom to: start a business, vote freely without interference, to travel and associate freely, to organize for collective bargaining, to pray to or love whom you choose. In short an open, just society with a strong safety net.
1
@Dwight Homer
If you had this system how in the world could you be jumping all over the globe seeking to dominate everyone with military might?
When my daughter lived in Iceland and Finland, she was automatically enrolled in the health care programs and paid no money for doctor visits and medications. She attended the University of Helsinki for one year and took classes at a school in Reykjavik for one semester for no charge. She did not have to be a citizen to receive these benefits. Contrast that to life in the US....So much stress is generated by the cost of medical care and higher education. We need to continue the move toward a Socialist Democracy and take better care of our people.
7
@Shirley Reynolds
A recent survey found that the Finns are the happiest people in the world.
Our fear of learning from Europe is pathological. While you were looking at Denmark, Professor Krugman, I was riding trains in Poland where French TGV (Trains Grande Vitesse) technology has been adopted. Found myself wishing we could adopt the same technology, which is least expensive and safest fast train technology.
Why has such “exceptionalism” taken hold here? Is it because we are so insular, anti-intellectual, and perhaps aware that we are not as exceptional as we would wish to be? To refuse to learn from the best is not American. That is how we became who we were.
5
Mr. Krugman makes some fine points here, but he does gloss over the key issue. The glossing occurs when he distinguishes between "socialists" and "social-democrats." Yes, there's a big difference there--but, why are Americans so careless about making distinctions?
While Mr. Krugman notes the "happiness index" being considerably higher in Denmark than in the U.S., as well as higher union participation and much better health care options, he fails to give ample notice to the pathetic state of education in the U.S.
From first grade through graduate school, Americans are trained to think within boxes of orthodoxies; i.e., trained in "what" to think, not "how."
Of course, our media is complicit in that poor and misleading "education." Decades ago, Marshall McLuhan wrote that "the medium is the message." "Medium cool" was a catchphrase of the era. The idea was that we were losing ourselves in our media because they were "cool" or comfortable places to "hang out."
That was then, and this is now. Our media are not very "cool" now! We hear harangues from so-called "newscasters" and "reporters" who are actually commentators. And, of course, we have a plethora of self-appointed "experts" and "analysts" on our not-very-"social" media!
"Where is wisdom to be found?" the Good Book asks (when it's at its best!). "Average" Danes are much better educated than "average" Americans. They have participatory democracy; we have clichés and shaming of those who disagree with us.
5
@Gary Corseri, you got it right; education in America is criminally negligent, especially as concerns basic civics and history. The apathy of the non-voter says it all. When did they ever get the lesson in participatory democracy? Never.
1
We are gratified to learn that Mr. Krugman now supports policies long advocated by the Bernie wing of the Democratic Party. And, we will try to forget how hard he worked to discredit Sanders and his ideas during the presidential primary. Well, better late than never.
6
Last summer, I was in Copenhagen and rode in a taxi. The driver was from Pakistan and had been a Danish citizen for 30 years. He and his family have medical insurance, his children both went to college and became MDs. He will have a good retirement pension. He told me he was "happy to pay taxes". A taxi driver here in the US (Pakistani or not) would not say the same thing or have the same quality of life.
11
Thank you for this practical piece on economics and political systems. We as citizens deserve relevant knowledge from op-ed writers to understand what government can do for us!
2
Having been married to a first generation Dane for 45 years, with many Danish relatives, and having spent a lot of time visiting there it is clear to me that the fundamental difference between US and Denmark is that our government is run by the wealthy, for the wealthy, built around the premise of individual self aggrandizement, while the Danish government and society as a whole actually cares about and does what it can for the people. Here, excessive wealth and opulent living is celebrated as "success", while Danes frown on such self indulgence and focus on what works for everybody. This attitude extends to society as a whole, not just to government. Here, we see private businesses doing what they can to chisel more profit from the consumers and workers, while there the businesses do their best to provide genuine high quality at all levels to consumers and to treat workers with dignity, respect and a livable wage. This state of affairs is undergirded by different philosophies. Instead of viewing others as inferior or superior beings who pose competitive threats, Danes view others as equally dignified human beings united in the same collective goal of making a society that works well for everyone, regardless of age, gender, skin color, religion or heritage. Even so called "royalty" is viewed as being just like everyone else.
18
@Yakpsyche
This is only possible because the Danes live in a homogenous society that existed from the beginning of time. They never participated in the genocide of a native population, they never enslaved other human beings and above all they respected each other. Although the Danes at one time ruled over all the Scandinavian countries ( the Kalmar Union) they never engaged in enslaving each other.
@Yakpsyche
"Danes view others as equally dignified human beings united in the same collective goal of making a society that works well for everyone, regardless of age, gender, skin color, religion or heritage.”
See the July 1st NYT article titled "In Denmark, Harsh New Laws for Immigrant ‘Ghettos’" which says the following:
Denmark’s government is introducing a new set of laws to regulate life in 25 low-income and heavily Muslim enclaves, saying that if families there do not willingly merge into the country’s mainstream, they should be compelled.
Starting at the age of 1, “ghetto children” must be separated from their families for at least 25 hours a week, not including nap time, for mandatory instruction in “Danish values,” ... Noncompliance could result in a stoppage of welfare payments.
One measure under consideration would allow courts to double the punishment for certain crimes if they are committed in one of the 25 neighborhoods classified as ghettos, based on residents’ income, employment status, education levels, number of criminal convictions and “non-Western background.”
Another would impose a four-year prison sentence on immigrant parents who force their children to make extended visits to their country of origin — described here as “re-education trips” —in that way damaging their “schooling, language and well-being.”
Another would allow local authorities to increase their monitoring and surveillance of “ghetto” families.
Having worked in both Denmark and Sweden, Mr. Krugman is correct in his description of the redistributive social system in those countries. But with that comes a big loss as well. Call it "ambition", call it "drive", call it "animal spirits", call in "entrepreneurialism". It doesn't exist in these countries. People are very happy doing not much of anything. Like the novels of Karl Ove Knausgård -- brilliant writing about doing not much of anything.
Speaking only for myself, I found living and working in Sweden and Denmark rather boring compared to the excitement of American capitalism. And colleagues from Sweden who came to America on assignment found returning to the Nordics rather stifling.
Yes, American capitalism is fiercely competitive and there are winners and losers. And we need to do better to buffer the loses. But as they say, “No pressure, no diamonds”.
60
@David Hardwick and @hopeful Libertarian : as a Canadian and long-time American resident, I agree with both of you. In Canada (another social democratic paradise), many "average" people are lacking in ambition compared to Americans in comparable places ( ie education and background). There are plenty of ambitious Canadians, most of whom still live in Canada. The lack of a social safety net seems to focus the minds of many in the US to work harder. The Canadian system is a much superior way of life for most people - healthier, longer lived, less stressful - with a little less edge. I think if you were to ask the spouse of someone who has just lost their job in the three countries where they'd rather live, the US would place third. But for those with education, drive, (money) and the ability hold their nose when confronted with blatant inequality and even cruelty, the US has advantages. Just be prepared to hold your nose.
5
@Hopeful Libertarian
Thanks for your post, it is good and it got me thinking.
As you said, speaking only for myself:
I am a pediatrician.
I actually work with pretty much with the general public, which gives me a fairly unfiltered view of the system and how it affects families (in my area). )(Relatively few educated people actual interact with the "general public" in their professional lives -- for most, there is a filter ... so I do have a certain perspective).
I take care of a fair number of "poor" or "working poor" kids.
Many (not all) of the parents of the working poor have sort of given up... not on raising their kids, but on "bettering their families situation" by joining in the "fiercely competitive" system. They get by, more or less... but not much more.
Their kids don't seem to benefit much. Their kids are part of your future.
A better system would help the less able have a decent life, be reasonably happy and productive and give their kids a better chance to do what I did...
Which is be a public school kid who "went to Harvard" and now is giving back a bit ...
So yes, a few would lose out (as you point out, I think correctly) and maybe not be motivated to go from the top 10% to the top 1%... but many would prosper and ultimately the whole would be better.
At least that's how I see the situation.
114
@Hopeful Libertarian
Most people in the US, much like anywhere else, are not driven to become top dogs in their field. Much like anywhere else, some seek fame and fortune, most do not. Most people, even those who strive to excel in their fields, don't do so in pursuit of the mighty dollar, but get satisfaction and a sense of accomplishment from achievements other than a stock portfolio. Personally, I think you are conflating drive for accomplishment with financial rush. It is not the only measure of success or drive for excellence.
As an immigrant, having worked on both sides of the Atlantic, I find populations are rather equal in their wants out of life. The difference between here and there is that making an honest living and having something to show for it is much harder here than there.
As to your utterly baseless assertions made on the non-existence of ambitions, etc. On a per capita basis, the leading countries in R&D investment, the US ranks 6th, with all the boring countries in the top 10. Ranking per capita of countries in scientific and engineering research the US ranks 7th with 6 boring people outperforming the exciting capitalism of the US. Overall assessment in technological and innovative capabilities of countries, per capita, the US ranks 3rd. Hmmm, almost like they are pretty ambitions, driven and successful.
66
Facts never get in the way of Trish Regan, and Faux News. Their job is to promote certain types of erroneous thinking. They're doing a pretty good job of that. The rest of us just need to keep heaping facts on their heads. Never let them rest. Wear them out. Humiliate them for their ignorance, and arrogance.
tRump TV. :-P~~~
2
Didn't Hillary Clinton say that the USA isn't Denmark?
Also Krugman has spent the last 3+ years pretending most in the USA are happy with their employer based medical process insurance. Such delusions sold by Krugman are one of the ways he helped elect Trump.
Also, he still needs to apologize for his 1990s Enron and Goldman Sachs defense: "The Man in the Gray Flannel Suit" essay in particular--Fortune.
That kind of "thinking", not limited to K, is one of the big reasons Trump won.
4
Not exactly a multicultural blend. Of about the 6 million living there, 95% of them look alike. 90% share a mother tongue. So if Paulie is considering a Great America redux, this is a good start at debunking multiculturalism.
2
What does multiculturalism have to do with providing free health care for all?
2
Jabin, are you saying that people can only be generally happy if 95% of them 'look alike'? America is exceptional exactly because of our multicultural democratic experiment. You remember your American history don't you? In any case, it's possible that 90% of Venezuelans speak the same language, and to you, I'm sure they all 'look alike'. So what exactly is your point? That we in America can't improve anything cuz we don't have a culture or what?
1
I never understood why/when socialism became a dirty word. People's overall happiness, well-being and satisfaction with their government looks pretty good to me!
3
What we have here is socialized loses for the banks and corporate elites and privatized profits.
We pay for their mistakes and they make the rules (money for government officials) and keep the profits when they do well.
Rigged ...or not? Who cant see that and want to change? Let’s try social democracy...what have we got to lose?
3
In Denmark, they pay more taxes to pay for all the programs
2
My relatives in Europe pay approximately the same tax rate I pay. Only they get health care and college education. What do Americans get?
3
@Zejee,Oh we have guns - lots of guns. And for every little conflict, we supply the guns. Do you think those rebels in Syria or Iraq or Afghanistan, or the Congo, or Yemen manufacture their own weapons? Think again. We manufacture munitions to the world. And we don't really care who gets these weapons - even if they are used against us.
Look, Trumpians live on a different planet. Their notions of evolution is rudimentary at best, as their Maker is present in their daily business; they perceive the nature of things rather differently; some would call it ignorance (make that utter) others the result of a confluence of forces all alien to reason and humanism...oops, I did it, uttered a wrong word for humanism rhymes with socialism. But also with capitalism, and solipsism...Its complicated. Americans don't do complicated; certainly not the ones who listen to the One, Their Chosen, who speaks in their tongues- the unintelligible language of their trusted cult media -Fox News!
Sorry, couldn't help myself!
1
Why would't I be suprised if this artice is branded as "fake news", and the picture as a Hollywood set?
1
Thank you Paul. Keep up the good work. We need to keep hammering at the Repub boogie-men. Over time, the Repubs will need more than racism and anti-social democracy and tRumpism to be a viable political party. The Guns, "God", and Gays stategery is fading.
2
Democrats: please do not make any sort of socialism or socialist policies part of your platform for the mid-terms or 2020 general election. That would be playing directly into Donald Trump and the Republicans' hands. Please, be smart and appeal to those in the center, not the far left!
2
I will not vote for any candidate who does not support Medicare for All. We’ve waited long enough.
6
Only the left can save this country. The center has given us Trump.
2
@Megan M
The platform doesn't matter. What matters most is getting people who are really concerned about our country to get to the polls and vote. Vote like your life depends on it.
2
Denmark has a population smaller than Wisconsin. It is 88% ethnic Danes. It's more of a 'country club' than a country. And Denmark's generous welfare benefits are provided by a market far freer and friendlier to business than in the USA, where the likes of Paul Krugman and Elizabeth Warren are itching to saddle our industries with commerce killing regulations. Furthermore, anyone who thinks the US government would be able to administer sweeping benefits such as free healthcare, education and guaranteed income more efficiently than this little Nordic nation-state clearly needs their meds adjusted.
Note how this Nobel Prize winning economist never talks about how America could pay for single payer? Nothing ever more than vague assurances that it would save money in the long term? Kind of like Medicare, right? Laughable.
Ask Paul Krugman how a nation that already has a $21 trillion dollar national debt (Not to mention the public debts and pension liabilities of states like California, NY, NJ and Illinois) would pay for Single Payer / Medicare for all. You'll hear a lot of obfuscating, changing the subject and double talk - but you'll never get an answer.
It's not that Paul Krugman's numbers don't add up - It's that he brings no numbers at all. This man has more unearned awards, praise and prestige than Kim Jonh Un. And his policy prescriptions would take us to a place more like North Korea than Denmark, that's for sure.
3
But the numbers do add up. US for profit health care is the most expensive health care in the world. Every other first world nation provides free health care for all citizens. Why can’t the US, the richest nation the world has ever known?
3
@jcambro
Wait until mr.trump does his thing on this country. We'll wind up with a $50 trillion debt and nothing to show for it but military parades. Just you trust the master of bankruptcies.
2
First world countries do no such thing, and it helps precisely nobody for the leftish to be willfully ignorant.
To be fair, Denmark is pushing mandatory cultural assimilation on its minority communities with some ferocity. Integration > Assimilation.
3
@ubique Indeed. They don’t know how to handle diversity and living there can feel too constricted. If I had to pick the best country to live in with the Protestant culture (in which most Italians, Spaniards, French, ... would never want to live!) I would go with the Netherlands (A’dam or R’dam). Personally I prefer a more Latin culture country over the more dry and boring North and would pick Barcelona, Antwerp, Paris, ...
2
Democratic-Social-Republic... sounds like a winning formula!
1
Low tax rate countries =low quality of life countries
Low tax red states= low education and research spending = lower quality of life
If the head like an ostrich folks on the right looked before they opened their mouths perhaps a few gasps might be heard. For the great quality of life high tax govt entities ( cities states countries) enjoy
After all Donald trump , you build where? High tax NJ NY ........
2
Hmmmm.... I seem to recall a certain columnist who supported a candidate who challenged her opponent’s praise for Denmark’s social democratic policies by stating, “We are not Denmark … I love Denmark. We are the United States of America.” Am I to conclude that the columnist regrets that support and the consequent vilification of Bernie Sanders?
9
I wonder how much of Denmark's difference compared with the US can be traced to something basic: America rewards sociopaths in business and politics with wealth and power.
10
How do we allow a major media organization to simply lie to our masses with no consequence whatsoever? All of our problems stem from these lies and propaganda spawned by monsters who weren't even born here and in some cases are not even citizens. They incite violence. How will we stop them?
Though I like Denmark's socialism very much, I paused when I read this: "Denmark to school 'ghetto' kids in democracy and Christmas" Reuters, World News, May 2018.
“The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
― Margaret Thatcher
No need to say more, i am sure.
4
Gee. But we don’t seem to run out of money by increasing the defense budget by trillions.
2
“The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Why are we talking about the military?
@alan sommer
A truly ignorant comment. . .Margaret's, I mean.
Democratic Socialism means sharing some our our collective efforts. Gadzooks, I said "collective."
However, I'm sure you are secure in that $100,000/year job Trump promised you.
Life is not fair. Socialists try to do something about that. Capitalists celebrate it.
7
You mean exacerbate it. The rich in the US actively undermine government, then scream from the hilltops that government doesn’t work.
Unfortunately, Prof. Krugman likes to pick and choose when it comes to Denmark. Something is definitely wrong in a country with a ghetto policy as described quite clearly in the NYT most recently:
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/01/world/europe/denmark-immigrant-ghetto...
So Denmark may not be socialist, but at least in terms of one policy, it seems closer to fascist.
1
Wait, you're saying that Paul thinks we should take the things the Danes do right (economics) but not the things they do wrong (minority rights)?
Goodness. How unthinkable.
I guess Mr. Krugman didn't read his colleague Bret Stephen's column last week (8/11), which mentioned a recent NY Times article about life for Denmark's religious minorities:
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/01/world/europe/denmark-immigrant-ghetto...
"Starting at the age of 1, “ghetto children” must be separated from their families for at least 25 hours a week, not including nap time, for mandatory instruction in “Danish values,” including the traditions of Christmas and Easter, and Danish language."
Wow, Denmark- mandatory family separation and religious indoctrination?? Hmm, think I'll stay here in America where my kids and I enjoy religious freedom, thank you very much.
3
We can still take free health care for all.
2
I think this is all great...really...but wonder about impact of decreasing population growth and aging population. I wonder what Mr. Krugman's slant is on this.
Omission is fibbing. The USA has radically poor post slavery blacks whose marriage and illegitimacy situation was made far worse by welfare’s process that made the male a traveler and the mother became the holder of the check. The USA has millions of illegal migrants whose health and education must be paid for by others. I can’t go on...the omissions are inverted fibbing.
2
So? Everyone, every human being, deserves health care. The richest nation the world has ever known can afford it b
2
I'm a liberal because I love myself more than I hate other people.
2
Thank you for a clear and coherent argument.
A relative just sent me a link from the Federalist:
http://thefederalist.com/2018/08/17/debunking-socialist-myths-90-percent...
I admittedly scanned the article quickly - I don't grant much credence to these sources - but it seems an incredibly incoherent argument, one mostly at odds with its title.
Any thoughts?
You cite the young voting a certain way, but is this not
the herd grunting and stampeding in their naive and idealistic way towards that false dawn of Utopia? Another idealism
is cited 'Denmark', without any reference to its neighbours
Sweden with its serious immigration problems. Scandinavia is no longer a Socialist nirvana; what you are really advocating to your readers employing the Bard is: look guys here is a Religion and it is working in Denmark, one can only term that 'Bardicide'. What you fail to say is that you are not a dispassionate observer but of that 'Religion' too as are all your colleagues thanks to those ideological factories called Universities. You try to eke out truth to give permanence to this Socialist movement, but for it to have truth it has to have permanence and not be just a fleeting movement like all other 'socialist' experiments. Your readers are not some Petri Dish for your hopeful alchemy like scribbling, In response here is the Bard, freely adapted; 'We must not make a scarecrow of our Socialist urging instead with dulcet pen fend off the birds of prey, and let our Socialist scarecrow keep its shape till custom make it not the the object for Trump like birds of prey but a permanent perch for our youthful winged socialists'. Good luck with your socialist scarecrow and your ever hopeful, youthful proselytising.
So every other first world nation has provided free health care for all citizens for decades. What’s “fleeting” about it?
1
When I was twenty years old my mother told me that I could never buy health insurance in the USA so I became a socialist and went into permanent exile, living nine years in Europe and forty-one in Québec. The USA is undoubtedly the unhappiest country that I have lived in. It is not just the lack of socialism that is to blame, it is also the ubiquity of firearms. Dr. Krugman fails to mention the fact that when Danes send their children to school in the morning they do not have to worry about them being shot dead. Of course another source of happiness is that they are not being led by a vulgar ignorant narcissistic racist.
8
“...there is far more misery in America then there needs to be.” Boy, you got that right.
6
Only Paul Krugman could write a column about democratic socialists and not mention Bernie Sanders...
7
“Though this be madness, yet there is method in't.”
― William Shakespeare, Hamlet
What can you expect from the pathetic echo-chamber that is Fox News?
Socialism is one of those words that conjures up all sorts of horrors for many Americans. It is a place of deep cold, where there is much suicide and you can't easily buy a Bushmaster.
Yet more evidence for not being too keen to get out the vote.
3
Yeah, fix this stuff. And then gun control too. And try to teach the people to be less obnoxious and arrogant. Maybe one day there might be some hope.
2
"And try to teach the people to be less obnoxious and arrogant."
Indeed, this is one area in which we might want to be less like the French.
If this be socialism, make the most of it!
4
Denmark is also a very racist nation and has instituted dreadful, nationalistic laws, defining who is a Dane and who isn't. Krugman should have acknowledged their more draconian policies when it comes to refugees, asylees and migrants.
2
Paul:
Please do read July 1, 2018 NYT article.
In Denmark, New Laws for Immigrant ghettos.
1
Here we go again. Another Paul Krugman NYT article on Denmark. Just like a couple of weeks ago. It's bound to attract attention, thousands of comments (mine, for instance), readership, and subscriptions. It's not bound to do much for the millions of Americans desperate for health insurance and economic security such as the Danes can take more for granted.
I'd have greater respect for this newspaper if it began solidly, continuously endorsing Medicare for All and tuition-free public higher education in place of these opinion columns by a privileged man with the means to travel and write about it.
8
Once again, it has been determined that fox news is the Real Fake news.
2
The obesity rate in the US is 39% with 8% with extreme obesity (BMI over 40) having risen from 15% in 1980, Denmark has a obesity rate of 15%, the US rate in 1980, with an older population. Our childhood obesity rate is about 15% rising from 5% in 1980.
While tobacco use has declined since 2000 to about 15%, for those at the poverty level and below it has not declined and remains about 35%.
As a Nobel Prize Winning Economist, Krugman ought to recognize that health and healthcare costs is ultimately based on structural issues which is primarily overeating and bad diets for Americans compared with Danes, and secondarily the high rate of tobacco use among those at the poverty level and below.
By taking advantage of our laws, one of the largest Danish firms Novo Nordisk which sells modern forms of insulin along with two other manufacturers has made huge profits compared with pricing in well-off European countries by taking advantage of our market-based economy. So much for ethical Danes.
"Progressive" California just passed a state law that overrides local taxes on Coke and other unhealthy beverages because the legislature is owned by food and beverage companies and tobacco companies.
Please, Prof. Krugman, if you really care about the health of Americans write about the overeating and bad diets, high tobacco use among the poor, and overcharging of essential medicines by firms such as Novo Nordisk.
When Krugman compares the percentage of those receiving benefits in small isolated countries like Denark, or Sweden compared to the 19% in the US, let me know. Sweden is about to swing to the right given the unsustainable welfare benefits, and they're at only 7%.
Laudable emotions and empathy doesn't trump reality and math.
2
But they will never give up free health care for all.
I just got back from 12 days in Copenhagen, where I was visiting my daughter who is studying design. She says she plans to stay there...forever!!
I don't blame her one bit and I am encouraging her to make a life in Denmark. Maybe she can help her family (through chain migration...get out of Trumplandia!)
I did not have pre-conceived notions about Denmark before going there this month for 12 days. What I found was a fabulous city, with warm, happy people. There were lots of bicycles, recycling; many young people; great, organic food. It was clean, organized and civil. Yes, it was expensive. Many people share apartments and resources but my daughter tells me that people seem very calm there in general-- they are not worried about the future. I found out that they earn quite a bit but spend most of it since they have very high taxes. But they live well and know that health, education, and many other things are guaranteed. There are rules about overtime. There is maternity and paternity leave-- PAID!
There are thriving small businesses and the infrastructure looks great. The architecture is beautiful and the city is clean.
AMERICANS-- wake up!!! We should be copying Scandinavia!
18
It is also the case that the US spends vastly more per capita on military affairs than does Norway. Norway's military expenditures, while significant, amount to $115 per capita. US military expenditures amount to $2091 per capita, 18 times the Norwegian amount. Among the reasons? Aircraft carriers. Even using a very broad definition of what that is, i.e. including helicopter carriers, the entire world has 21 of them. The US has 11. Each, along with a half dozen support vessels, has roughly 7,500 personnel. How much does it cost to maintain one carrier support group?? Heaven knows. Free college, maybe? (Note: Russia has 1 aircraft carrier.)
4
Actually Dan, the US has 11 SUPERcarriers.
The US has ANOTHER 10 or so smaller aircraft carriers of different varieties that we don’t even count, but could be the flagship carriers of any other navy.
Easy mistake to make.
Here’s another little known fact... the US Air Force is the largest Air Force in the world.
The second largest? The US Navy (see carriers, above).
Glad we raised military spending! We need it! Ha!
PS Denmark runs at a profit, the US does not.
Thanks for the support for democratic socialism. Where were you when Bernie Sanders had a double digit lead over stump in the national polls, bashing Bernie and praising Hillary. But thanks anyway for the Johnny come lately support.
4
Where was I? Lessee...looking at all the polls rather than just the ones I liked, noticing that Hillary Clinton's positions were pretty much the same as Bernie's, wondering why devotees of St. Bernie couldn't get it through their skulls that supporting a candidate who could actually win was more important than their self-indulgence, stuff like that.
3
But Robert- she didn’t win....
The Right loves doublespeak. The Cato Institute decries Denmark’s “welfare state transfers” that in reality transfer taxes into greater wealth and well being for every citizen. Just like the Right calls improvements in well being “socialism.” I guess they call lower life expectancy, higher child mortality, bankruptcies due to hospitalization and rising suicide rates “making America great again.” Orwellian.
3
It's easy to get along—is easy to take care of each other and share things—when everyone looks, talks, and pretty much thinks exactly the same. At 90% white, that's Denmark.
Expecting the same thing in the very racially and ethnically diverse United States is ludicrous. Take it from this famous economist:
'A Scandinavian economist once stated to Milton Friedman: “In Scandinavia we have no poverty.” Milton Friedman replied, “That’s interesting, because in America among Scandinavians, we have no poverty either”.'
2
@CapitalistRoader, milton friedman and his out-sized power and influence based in part by a racist comment like your quote, has no place in this dialog. He THOUGHT unfettered capitalism would be great for us. It turns out is a disaster for the many.
@karen: What on earth is racist about my comment or Friedman's quote? Japan is 98% ethnic Japanese. It's an extremely harmonious society. Is that observation racist too?
Head over to Gapminder World for a nice presentation on how capitalism has pulled billions of people out of abject poverty. Capitalism has been the greatest force for good in the history of mankind. Nothing else, no religion, no political ideology, no other economic system, even comes close. And capitalism in both the US and Europe has plenty of 'fetters'. Too may, actually. Thank God President Trump is removing some of them, resulting in the lowest African American and Hispanic unemployment in history.
Why is the concept of banding together, a more communal and social society such a evil thing in some minds? Why is the idea that the only healthy concept is that of winners and losers so popular with so many Pubs and Libertarians? Why is it so wrong to base our society on the common good? If there have to be extreme winners what do you do with the devastated losers? Banish them? Feed them to dogs? Make slaves of them?
4
@george
I think most people just want to care of those they love and wish the rest the best. Really, there is nothing wrong with that idea.
I fully support the tenets of Democratic Socialism, but come on, Dr. Krugman: you must know better.
The reason Denmark is this Eden is because Danes are predominantly Danish, white and Christian. The total population is ˜5.5 million — not even the population of New York City. They share a unity that we in the States are too disparate and frankly, too big, to have. They are willing to pay for each other's social safety net.
This is a nation of immigrants; Denmark is a nation of Danes. So too with Sweden, Norway, the Netherlands, all the countries that are always touted as "getting it right."
I wish we in the U.S. would care more about our fellow Americans, but please stop comparing us to Denmark. It's a ridiculous comparison.
5
I don’t understand why race and size has anything to do with it. Where there’s a will there’s a way.
2
As usual, trust FOX to get it wrong. And if Trish Regan is anything like this president, she has probably never been to Denmark, let alone understand what 'Socialism' is and how it operates -- even though as Blonde, Blue-eyed Scandinavians, they'd have a much better chance of immigrating here than those from less desirable countries.
Lucky for them they'd rather stay there.
1
What is the early death rate of working men in different countries?
Is Manafort typical of what the wealthy do, in hiding money overseas?
Denmark's example is indeed one to aspire to. Unqualified, enthusiastic support for corporate big money Democrats like Hillary Clinton won't get you anywhere near there.
4
To get a grip on that certain planet [apologies to Barney Frank] where free-market freedom fetishists apparently spend most of their time, a close reading of R H Tawney's roaring-20s classic, "Religion and the rise of capitalism," is indispensable.
"... Trish Regan, a Fox Business host, created a bit of an international incident by describing Denmark as an example of the horrors of socialism, ..."
I watch FOX once a week for roughly an hour because it is the only thing on the TV in the bar I go to kill an before going to the weekly rehearsal. This viewing time is valuable to me for a few reasons:
1) to hear the latest idiotic ramblings in the FOX echo chamber, the propaganda arm of the republican party, etc
2) which companies to boycott (i.e. who advertises on FOX)
3) the latest scams (who is selling gold, or investor guides by Ken Fisher, etc)
2
Scandanavian sytle democratic socialism seems like a good long term goal for the U.S.. Perhaps we will make slow progress towards that goal as the Fox News generation of grumpy old white people (of which I count myself) die off and turn over the reins of leadership to a younger more enlightened progressive generation.
3
Mr. Krugman: Thank you for the tasty Danish this morning!
Danes care about human dignity, the elderly, the young, families, getting a good education, healthcare, emotional fulfillment, the environment, affirmative constitutional rights, social obligations, science and, gasp, each other.
Americans care about guns and conspiracies.
Hey, keeps Trish Regan from having to do all that pesky research or getting a real job.
2
There is “real capitalism” as articulated by the likes of Adam Smith and then there is “American capitalism” that is practiced in the USA Today.
The so-called Socialist-Democrats are just advocating the capitalism that Adam Smith articulated in his writings. Much of the polices that Socialist-Democrats talk about are things that Smith warned of, yet most of the American Capitalists just ignor.
If we in America do not move in the next 20 to 40 years toward a Socilaist-Democratic economic system, basically dealing with all the things Smith warned us about as the excess’ of Capitasim, then we had be ready for unheard of social unrest or outright revolt.
4
Ay, there's the rub. I couldn't help myself either. Middle class Republicans that need government spending found nothing in un-orange Republicans. An invasive species (Orange Colonel Kurtz) took over a weak host and commandeered it. Once there, we played Russian Roulette ( a one in six chance ) and our brains ended up on the wall. The horror! The horror!
Spot-on except for one thing: Denmark MUST change its racist ways, particularly in how it treats dreamers. To gloss over the country's new "ghetto laws" implies you are endorsing its 1930's-style statutory racism.
I agree with mostly all your points but am shocked by this blatant omission!
@Nate, unfortunately, it is likely that these disturbing policies are not only part of the story, but woven in to the entire story. It is not difficult to conjure up a real or imagined sense that newcomers ("them") are coming to live off a public welfare system designed for some "us".
Of course, what most newcomers really do want is equal treatment under the law and religious freedom - the very things most threatened by a culture that elevates and protects some group of "us".
Great piece, timely. You hit the nail on the head.
One rotten thing in Denmark is their banning of the full headscarf hijab. Another is the the forceable separation of “ghetto child” emigrants for 25 hours per week training in “Danish values”. A third is the drastic reduction in emigration numbers. Things sure are great when everybody looks the same and has the same culture, but when faced with diversity, it looks like a return to poor form made worse by a big controlling government.
@Bean, I am not sure that banning head scarves and teaching immigrant children danish values is a bad thing. You are not the only one who has made this statement, but none of you backs it up with a why. It seems to me that if you move to another country, part of the idea is to assimilate.
4
Why this need for such elaborate explanation, from Krugman no less, for another example of the sheer limitation of the Fox News worldview?
Why mince words? Trish Regan and the rest of the Fox News universe has no relationship with the truth; actually, the entire network was built on and is sustained by lies.
3
Krugman loves the social democratic system of Denmark, but when Sanders ran on essentially the same policies Krugman lauds, Krugman derided him as a believer in unicorns and fairy dust. Krugman sees himself as a "progressive", but someone needs to tell him that you can't be a cheerleader for sweatshops AND a progressive.
http://www.slate.com/articles/business/the_dismal_science/1997/03/in_pra...
8
I have a sneaking feeling that a good economist's objections to Sanders boil down to having a problem with his dishonesty about what stuff costs.
Or did Bernie come right out and speechify about Denmark-level taxes, and I missed it?
1
You did miss it. Sanders explained how Medicare for All would be paid for—and also explained that it would be less expensive—LESS—than for profit health care, the most expensive in the world.
5
It's interesting that when progressive proponents of equality and diversity point to a shining example of an enlightened society they never seem to pick one that is less than 90% white.
3
What ??!!
Are you saying that Americans are racist? That the white people in America cannot possibly get along with the brown? That we can only care about each other if we look the same?
What does race have to do with providing free health care for all citizens?
@Zejee
Free healthcare---nothing is free.
... and maybe we could do with a few less aircraft carriers?
5
In the words of Sasha Baron Cohen, “Who is America?”. Are we freedom-loving, community builders who work together to build a better world like Jimmy Stewart in “It’s a Wonderful Life”, or the the self interested, cowardly town’s people of “High Noon”? For years, ocean-protected Americans have been fed a constant diet of fear. Americans are told to fear those oceans away, those on our southern border and those within our borders. Government is evil and will take your hard earned money, giving it to a lazy, undeserving neighbor for their health care, their public transportation, their kids’ schools. Americans are instructed to give their kids advantages over those other kids by signing them up for every activity, sport and special tutoring so they get ahead. The added benefit is someone else can wat h the kids while you work extra hard to get a bigger house. Americans desperately want to build a royal class defined by wealth to differentiate us from them. We have been sold the idea community, of sharing good fortune is a sucker’s play or worse. It might be time to get off the treadmill and look at where it is taking us.
3
Funny how you conveniently ignore the fact that Denmark spends well under 2% of its GDP on its military. It’s easy to spend money on your citizens when you have the American military defending you from Russian invasion so you can spend noting on your military. Please factor this in next time you discuss how amazing and prosperous socialism is
2
Even if Denmark increased military spending there would still be enough to provide free health care for all.
And maybe the US doesn’t need to spend as much as the next 12 nations combined for defense c
3
Denmark has few minorities. If we had fewer minorities we'd be doing well.
4
@Ryan Is that why California now has the 5th largest economy in the world? Because white people are a minority?
I’m not sure if I should laugh or be depressed when Americans are arguing about European social-democracy
As somebody who lives in Austria, one of the supposedly better off welfare states, let me point out the following:
1. For earning about USD 80 thsd gross/year, I pay taxes close to 50%,so my Net is somewhere at 40 thsd.
A 80sqm flat in Vienna (in a place where less than 80% of the residents speak Arabic or Turkish) starts at USD 800 thsd.
2. The social net is supposed to help the vulnerable, but in fact is grossly abused by most: University is “free”
(aka financed by tax payers) so the average age of an Austrian student is 26. Instead of studying there’s just
party and political activism as you don’t pay and can finish the uni whenever you want, the state will pay.
After finishing the uni most goes on unemployment benefit (about USD 1000/month) bc cannot find work in the studied field.
to be continued in a second post
4
Johann, Americans making your kind of money pay between 35 and 40 percent of their income in taxes. Only the rich, like Romney or Trump pay low rates like 10-15 percent.
Many Americans pay another $2-3000 dollars a MONTH for health insurance (which doesn’t include co-pays.)
University costs about $50-60,000 a year. Someone as “rich” as you would likely not get financial assistance for your children’s tuition, but your children could rack up enough loan debt to be paying it off until they are in their 50s- not an exaggeration.
Car costs are mandatory expenses in most places as public transportation is terrible, so that’s another $400 a month. Roads are overcrowded, inadequate, and often in poor repair, so it’s not like that $400 pays for luxury. Oh, did I mention tolls?
There is no child care for young children, so if you plan on being a single parent or a two income family, budget at least another $30-50,000 a year for that.
There are few jobs with pensions anymore so unless you want to buy “Cooking with Cat Food” and live off the pitiable government pension of Social Security, you need to put away a lot of money every month- for an $80,000 a year income, that’s another $10-20,000 out of your pocket.
And when I bought my apartment in the midst of a financial crisis (2009) when prices were at rock bottom, in not such a great neighborhood, it was $900,000.
Socialism certainly has some problems. But I’d trade them for ours in a second.
Population 5.731 million
1
As expected the right wing talking points about how Denmark can only do this because they are about 6 million people and that a country 50 times larger could not copy that. Can someone explain to me why "the economy of scale" would not apply to socialized medicine and education and child care? Things get even more cheap and doable if there are more people to share the burden, we have a lot more super-rich who can pay for it. Is this some racist dog whistle - that you would never get white people to accept that black people have decent health care and education?
6
How about a “New Deal for the 21st Century”.
1
Normal Americans continue to be embarrassed by the ignorant fools who speak for our government. They are so wrong about so many things and their supporters are too deluded or too uninformed to know any better. How did this happen in an open society with public education and a free press? It wasn't an accident. The schools have been underfunded for generations and freedom of the press allows organized and savvy liars to cloud the truth. Now we have leaders of one major party who routinely ridicule truth-tellers and punish doubters. This can't go on. More Americans have to wake up and demand big changes before it's too late.
4
CT scan - England, X-rays -Germany, Ultrasound - Japan, Laparoscopic surgery and many other surgeries - Germany, Antibiotics - England, Radiation therapy - Germany, Titanium (non metal joint replacement) - Russia, Heart Transplant - South Africa, Tissue typing for transplants - Belgium, Smallpox vaccine - England, Nuclear Magnetic Resonance - Europe, DNA discovered - England, Insulin - Canada. There’s more, but there’s not enough pixels in the universe to keep typing.
What do all of these medical discoveries share in common? All were discovered in countries with “socialized” medicine.
5
Krugman quotes the Cato Institute in his fine analysis: “Denmark has quite a free-market economy, apart from its welfare state transfers and high government consumption.” In short, capitalism finances its socialism. Strip away private ownership of production and you get real hellholes such as Venezuela and the dead Soviet Union. We'll work hard for ourselves and our families, but not for "people," "society," or "mankind." That's human nature -- the bedrock of our species.
4
@Larry Yates
Agreed Larry. I wish other people well, but i will not work to support them.
i totally agree with you, Paul, about the virtues of whatevet we call Denmark's political system for its citizens.
But I can't believe you so systematically omitted any observations at all about the country's other residents: its non-western immigrants, who constitute nearly 10 percent of the country's population.
The enormous advantages and freedoms enjoyed by the country's well fed, well educated, well employed, and well cared for citizens are increasingly denied particularly to those who are, or appear to be, Muslims.
These immigrsnts (many of them born in Denmark) are increasingly pushed into "ghettos", where their freedom, benefits, and children increasingly extricated from them by the same state that has created such idealistic, liberal laws for its own citizens. (See, NYT, "In Denmark, Harsh New Laws for Immigrant ‘Ghettos’" - less than 2 months ago.)
Indeed, in Northern Europe as a whole, the increasing perfection of the notion of the welfare state for citizens is increasingly mirrored by harsh policy measures toward the right for non-Western immigrants, on whose unskilled labor so much of the state's economy arguably rests.
Worldwide people want, and are entitled to a better life. Perhaps, as we sit at the edge of full-planet climate calamity we might get there. Maybe, because our mythos says the good guys always win, or maybe not. God, after all is entitled to Creator's Remorse.
http://levalive.live
1
Somehow the USA is significantly genetically predisposed to favor tribal authoritarianism (TA).
Yes I said "genetically" - but only because much of that population's gravitation toward TA seems impervious to facts, reason, education, intelligence, experience, or social status (e.g. wealth).
Studies have shown possible genetic/epigenetic underpinnings. Suffice to say it is almost impossible to cure.
Sure loads of us will fall for some program or notion that aligns with TA. Propaganda works across the board. And by golly sometimes those TA programs/notions are more right in a context.
But those of us not genetically inclined - given proper intellectual freedom - will adjust positions and support away from TA or any notion for that matter if we find it doesn't work well or is found misleading. The hardwired will not.
And the hardwired TA inclined (a minority) have commandeered our elections.
Why do I bring this up here in this column?
Because the people WE'VE STUPIDLY allowed to decide our leaders - who will set our laws, our programs, our judiciary, our future - social democracy is against their "religion"!
Yes it has a lot to do with religiosity but here I mean it does not fit their TA mental models and never will! And
when the TA minority rules fascism happens - it just does!
Social democracy is the future .. but the USA will be a backwater sooner than later unless we all VOTE and vote not like it is a sports game but rather like the existential war it is!
1
I studied Socialism pretty closely when I was younger, the early 70s, and came to the conclusion, as others did, that socialism as written in books etc. did not exist in the world. Though I was impressed with the ideology, It went to far. I asked my father the difference between Dems and Republicans at a young age. He said if you work for someone you should be a Democrat. If you own a business you should be a Republican. Been a democrat all my life. I was involved in union organizing early on and worked most of my life at a Union job.
Enter Social Democrats. this seems to be the perfect foil to strait capitalism.
Don't be afraid of the word Socialist. Social security, Unemployment insurance, Medicare. Its all socialism and democracy is great if we can save it from the 45 capitalists.
2
We would all do well to avoid these silly comparisons. Denmark is a tiny (5.73 million people vs. USA 323 million people), ethnically homogeneous (86.9% ethnically Danish vs. 61% non-hispanic white in the USA). The other huge problem is what is socialism? Is it the ownership of the means of production, or the massive transfer of wealth between groups? It's complicated and it's not a useful comparison. Better comparisons would be between the USA and large, diverse countries like the UK or even Germany. But we're a unique country and we need unique solutions, not this sort of simplistic nonsense like "free healthcare for all" or "free college for all" or "let's just be like Denmark" other silly things that sound great but are just slogans.
1
Germany has free college for all and universal healthcare.
These are not “slogans.”
They are policies.
Sure, because it makes a lot of sense to compare the US with a country of ~ 6 million ... and whose population is composed of of 99% Finns or Swedes.
3
@SL WATTS I have yet to hear an valid explanation for your position.
3
Raw, unfettered capitalism is a cruel and heartless system. It rewards those who have achieved some level of wealth at the expense of those who haven't.
In our country, those who have wealth don't want to see any limits on capitalism, especially if it involves taxes or regulations. They have theirs and everyone else is lazy or immoral. It's everyone for themselves. They will never agree to share their wealth.
In other countries, people acknowledge what raw capitalize can do and reject it. They realize that they are all in the same boat. That what's good for my neighbor is eventually good for me. They enact laws and regulations to equalize the benefits of their economies.
In which kind of country would you rather live?
1
Great article. It's also important to recognize two additional points: that the demonization of the poor in the US (the idea that the poor are undeserving of assistance) is deeply rooted in our racist history; and that the myopic view that low taxes are the answer to solving social ills ultimately robs us of a working or middle class that can actually support capitalism.
3
Less poverty equals less crime. A better education means less ignorance. A living wage means fewer are homeless. Universal healthcare means living a longer and more productive life. All of the things missing in America, the world's wealthiest nation.
1
Denmark’s all the rage in the socialism debate. The question is: what differentiates triumphant socialism as in Denmark vs tragic strains as in Venezuela.
The difference is social mores IMHO. When employed by countries with strong ethical and moral values that won’t tolerate corruption it works far better than in cases where corrupt, venal politicians line their pockets at taxpayer expense.
A case in point is the relatively good, clean governance of Wisconsin and Minnesota vs the cesspool of corruption in Illinois.
The extent to which one favors socialism is a function of trust in the integrity of the public sector. Conservatives tend to be MUCH more skeptical than progressives, which accounts in large part for the dynamics of the debate.
Remarkably, in spite of debates of deceit and dysfunction, my home state is predictably blue. As P.T. Barnum said, there’s a sucker born every day. And they all vote.
Being a beleaguered battler of besotted bureaucrats at the city, county, and state level where incumbents become inmates at an alarming rate, if democratic socialism is unavoidable, I would much prefer it from the Feds. I think they’re less corrupt than our local scoundrels and they have the crucial ability to print money to sustain the unsustainable.
Of course their strength is their weakness: unlimited credit means unrestrained capacity to do more harm than good, as so tragically demonstrated in the ‘60s from the food deserts of Chicago to the rice paddies of Vietnam.
1
"For today’s Democratic Party is actually impressively unified around social-democratic goals, far more so than in the past." I wish this was so but it's not. There is a great gap on economic matters between the centrist and liberal/progressive wings represented for simplicities sake
by Sanders supporters and Clinton supporters. We have centrist Democrats like Thomas Friedman in his column yesterday using 'Democratic Socialism' (shades of Mitt Romney) and 'Democratic Trotskyism'(where did he excavate this from?). And centrist self-described Democrat Gary Cohn serving as chief economic adviser to Pres. Trump and a major player in developing and pushing through the Trump tax cuts. Not to mention so-called 'liberal' think tanks like Third Way which goes out of it's way to describe itself as 'pro-business' or Center for American Progress with a board of directors filled with former Democratic Party Congressional leaders now lining their pockets as K Street lobbyists.
No, there is a great gap still between the 'centrists' and the 'progressive' wings of the Democratic Party on economic matters. At present opposition to Trump holds them together, but if the centrists prevail on economic matters, I would venture that many progressives will peel away in dismay.
3
Fox Business News knows that only 20% of Americans have a passport and that their viewers most likely fall into the 80% of those Americans who do not. Their viewers will never travel to Denmark to see for themselves what Democratic socialism looks like and therefore Fox can create a mythical Danish boogey monster and viewers will be none the wiser.
I'm a black woman who lived in Italy for a decade with my Italian husband and children and although Italy might not be the most organized country in the European Union, the values are the same; work to live, not live to work, family, friends and children are above all else. Those in need are taken care of well.
Why would Republicans want to promote anything that might inspire people to demand more from their government? That would be suicidal.
4
My son lives in Denmark. He routinely tells me that Danes cannot understand why Americans tolerate a medical system that disenfranchises so many, bankrupts so many and leaves so many Americans without access to basic care. His Danish peers tell him that Americans are totally snookered by a greedy hospital, insurance and pharmaceutical tryptic, as well as the false notion that our "market health care" system provides superior quality of care.
When I have visited him in Copenhagen, I am always impressed by the culture; I have not met a Dane who did not speak at least two languages, one being English.
6
a major problem in the US is that people still buy into the myth that if you work hard, you too can be a millionaire. instead of realizing that corporate welfare, the killing of unions, the immovable minimum (not living) wage, and the shipping of jobs overseas, the extraordinarily high cost of higher education has stripped the general population of any and all opportunities to make even a decent living and be a thousandaire, never mind, millionaire.
4
I would argue that Venezuela isn't socialism either. It's more of an inept, centrally-planned kleptocracy that uses socialist tropes to placate the Venezuelans. I don't think there has ever been a top-to-bottom socialist economy in history.
2
Venezuela's corrupt kleptocracy is what Trump Republicans aspire to. It has nothing to do with Socialism and everything to do with greed and personal enrichment of those tasked with serving their country, their citizens, and their society. That is the lesson of Venezuela - not the failure of socialism but the victory of conservatism.
1
Venezuela is and for a long time has been a ludicrously corrupt state; it just so happens that since Chavez, a much bigger chunk of the corruption was used for the benefit of ordinary voters than previously.
For a counter-example, see the various Arab Nationalist regimes like Egypt and Algeria that started as socialist states and gradually integrated into the capitalist world economy. Different theoretical ideology, but basically the same mess.
1
87% of Denmark's population is native. They share the same values by and large. Taking their system and applying it elsewhere is not feasible, let's stop pretending that the US can be like these nordic countries.
3
@MC Health care isn't a universal value??!!
2
@MC
So the US can’t learn anything at all from
Denmark? Not a single thing from the Danish system can be implemented in the US?
2
Your playing, again, into Republican definitions. Bad socialism, good social democracy. It’s this crazed, steroidal, hyper capitalism that is the problem. Starving governments (see today’s article on the poor little cities in Ohio running out of stop light parts), deciding to privatize, profitize, every ‘socialist’ endeavor- schools, prisons, parks, even our legal system (aka, arbitration). Nothing is sacred in the search for a big profit. Of course socialist ideas are a backlash.
As for the attempt at distinctions- I don’t have a problem with the state providing what capitalism won’t- be it hospitals, pharmacies that don’t require a religious test for treatment, small intra- urban trains, airlines, commuter rail, that aren’t profitable enough (yet) for greed to attack. Horrors!? No, the horror for Republicans is the phrase “financial transaction tax” that might pay for these modern necessities. Estate taxes. Plastic, sugar taxes.
We can have both social democracy and some socialism in a mixed economy. What we can’t continue to have is unrestrained greed gobbling everything in sight.
1
OH, that slippery Krugman again... why do I bother? A few comments:
1. “I know that some people in the US associate the Nordic model with some sort of socialism. Therefore I would like to make one thing clear. Denmark is far from a socialist planned economy. Denmark is a market economy.” – Danish prime minister Lars Løkke Rasmussen, Dec 2015. I agree most Democrats use a word without knowing what it means, but some do. Bernie Sanders was praising Venezuela's economic systems as recently as 2011.
2. The US standard of living is higher, per OECD and Eurostat, fully 11 countries higher (The US is #1).
3. Denmark and all of Scandinavian economic progress came about before the welfare systems were ramped up in the 60s and 70s.
4. In many ways, business is freer in Denmark - fewer regulations, no minimum wage, etc.. than in the US. And they certainly don't bash business as we do here.
5. No discussion from Krugman of ethnic homogeneity in Denmark and how Democrats in this country barrel headlong into identity politics, otherwise known as ethnic tribalism, tearing the US apart. "I don't see race" is now a microaggression, don't you know?
5. Krugman never even hints that a middle class taxpayer would need to pay something close to the 60% tax rate they do in Denmark. It might be.... relevant... to disclose a quadrupling of the tax bill for a middle income earner. Perhaps?
Very slippery, Paul. Good thing you're preaching to the choir. They won't notice.
4
My Republican friends, please read this; coming from the perspective of one who is a pro-business liberal:
We, as a society, have decided that there are certain common “goods”- even though not explicitly stated as such in our founding documents- which we have decided to implement for the sake of the public good.
We have decided that no matter how poor you are you have the right to a level of police protection. If you are rich, great; you can afford “more” protection by buying alarm systems, and hiring bodyguards. But everyone has the right to at least a minimum standard of protection.
Similarly, we know that no matter how poor someone is, they have a right to minimum fire protection. If you are rich, great! You can buy more; sprinkler systems, and other added protection is available to you. But for the good of society, fire departments respond to all, regardless of economic status, for the common good.
The point: How is it that we, as a society, place such a value on the safety of our possessions and our homes, yet don’t place an equal (greater) value on the common good that comes from a more universally healthy society?
Everyone should have a basic level of healthcare. If you’re rich you can afford more, better healthcare and good for you. But EVERYone has the right to basic healthcare.
That’s _all_ we liberals are saying. A minimum standard of healthcare in the richest country on earth has to be at least as important as our possessions and our homes.
6
It is past time for new leadership in Congress. Unfortunately, Ms. Pelosi has resisted any talk of universal health care or additional safety net programs. She has cowered to criticism of "socialist" policy from republicans time and again. Obamacare is a farce that was born of a compromise with cowering democrats leery of being labeled "socialist". Democrats alternatively need to fully embrace the concept of a socialist democracy instead of continuing their mush-mouthed hypocrisy. We all know quite clearly what republicans stand for. We need an alternative we can believe in.
2
Brilliant. This is why Krugman is the best editorial writer in America today. Krugman for President. A man who thinks first.
Wake up America! When are you going to stop voting against social justice and your true economic interests? They don't lie with men like W. and Trump.
I was in Denmark and Sweden for a short time when I was a young man. It was a real eye-opener and not just because of the coed, clothing optional saunas!
2
Again, well done Mr. Krugman. I, too, have been to Denmark and it is glorious. I know how to resolve this conundrum. Let’s split the U.S. down the middle, perhaps along the Mississippi or some such. One half will be ‘like Denmark’ and the other half will be, well, you know, greedy, corrupt, capitalist, and corporate-centric. Shake and stir for a few years. I know which half I want...Copenhagen, Colorado.
1
American's competitive narcissism and adolescent insecurities preclude it from making healthy decisions, like making life less miserable for people who don't have the same opportunities. We value punishment and revenge, ostentatious displays of wealth, and the almighty SELF. I don't know about Denmark, except what I read and it sounds lovely there. Once a critical mass of my myopic generation of old white people dies off, people will need to sort out how this country can transcend the strangling fearfulness and racial stains of the last 250 years and begin to really thrive. For all.
2
I am definitely, unapologetically a social-democrat. I think it's time to embrace the word "socialism" and disarm it, much as the word "liberal" no longer has any sting to it. The right will have to resort to the word "communism", which would be getting a little ridiculous, but they are already ridiculous. I think it's time to proudly proclaim that we do, indeed, want higher taxes and, at the same time, services and infrastructure. Government isn't the evil that Republican proclaim, except when it's run by incompetents, like it is now. Why must this country, with it's riches, continue to provide it's citizens so little? The reason: there are way too many Republicans. However, there are also way too many people who don't vote. It they get out and vote social-democratic, we might end up happier as a nation. Although happiness makes Republicans sad.
1
I grew up in England and want to move back. It’s simply too hard to live a happy middle class life here. Even if you don’t get sick, a divorce or need to buy health insurance, combined with high commuting costs ($65 a week for express bus) and lack of paid vacation or sick days ...... all this adds up to make a miserable life. And that’s before you take into account growing old and everything that comes with it (health care costs and no pension). All in all, Americans are “dog eat dog” and have convinced themselves there is no other way. The way they justify their harsh existence is by sorting people into “worthy” and “unworthy.” The poor, the drug addicted, those who cannot work (maybe from cancer)..... these are classed as the unworthy, and thrown to the wolves. The “worthy” are the rich and upper middle who don’t need affordable health care because they have health care given to them through jobs.... the worthy don’t need overtime pay since they have good base salaries.... the worthy are men who don’t need to recuperate from pregnancy and take time off from work. The worthy are the young and able who can work themselves to death. Sometimes, here, I just feel like the horse from Orwell’s 1984 .....and I long to escape back to Europe before my bones get turned into glue.
4
i think what younger people are increasingly accepting--in fact, preferring--is a "policed free market". a mixture of support for government provision for basic needs and freedom from government control of personal choices.
bureaucracies can become tyrannical and stupid, whether public or private. as a society we need checks against tyranny and stupidity. when we lose those checks, we get something like we seem to have now, with an executive branch consumed by greed and vanity, unchecked by congress or major institutions in the private sector.
what may be happening, though, is individual states (ie, california, to begin with) serving as laboratories for regulatory change. california is not denmark, of course; not yet. maybe vermont will get there first.
1
Really well written piece, Dr. K. Thanks!
2
Most young people in this country now advocate for a change to socialism. Many have seen this as a "miracle" given all that this country has invested in demonizing socialism, but that would be a major mistake. There has been no miracle. Both the Republicans and the Democrats can take credit for this change in the politics of the nation. They did so by gradually but inexorably creating the one percent oligarchy that now holds the nation hostage, starving its people of necessary resources while--amazingly--even now clawing at remaining resources via tax deductions, making themselves even richer. No miracle here. It would be tantamount to a miracle if the rich and powerful were to behave as they have, reversing even the modest reforms of the New Deal, and the population did not notice. While it was happening, many observers pointed out what was happening as the rich dug us all into a deeper and deeper hole investing against the inevitable time when their egregiously unfair policies would face undoing. That time has now come.
3
Don't forget to mention that Denmark's military is tiny. And they don't worry about it. We might sign onto a Danish lesson in getting along with other governments.
1
@Deborah Fink. In the interest of fairness we should mention that their military is tiny because it can hide behind ours.
3
We could improve our society an amazing amount if we spent a little less on 'defense' and other forms of corporate welfare. For one obvious example, do 10 aircraft carriers really help our defense or our society as much as would modernized transportation, more education, and fundamental research? In addition to pressuring the Europeans to spend a little more on their military preparedness, we would be wise to consider reducing our nearly $1T annual spending.
3
@Reuel Thank you, we are ridiculous with our "military", the huge, ginormous elephant in the room.
Denmark actually ranks higher in economic freedom than the United States, and we know that economic freedom and prosperity are strongly linked. Unfortunately, economic freedom in the U.S. has declined significantly over the last two decades (and not coincidentally, growth has been stagnant). If the U.S. implements so-called "democratic socialist" policies as in Denmark, economic freedom will take another large hit, and economic growth with it.
1
@Mark Cancellieri The Scandinavians understand that a strong capitalist economy is the key to all of their social safety nets. This is why they don’t consider themselves to be socialists. Additionally, they understand that everyone has to sacrifice to make it work, not just taxing the rich. If Americans want to emulate this to any degree then it will require more than just money from the rich.
2
Money from the rich is the start, the foundation, of a workable society for all. It worked before Reagan when the top 10% nominally paid a 90% income tax. Virtually no one in Scandinavia is as obscenely rich as the top 10% of Americans. That is where the disconnect is. When everybody pays 50% income tax there is a serious disincentive to keep obscenely enriching oneself at other's expense.
1
We have lots of friends in not only Denmark, but other Scandinavian countries as well. We host their kids on exchange programs. We visit them periodically.
Yes, a few of them grumble occasionally about taxes (doesn't everyone?), but when pushed on it, none of them would trade their system for ours ... especially when they discover we actually DO pay in nearly as much, if not more, than they do, but don't get nearly as much out.
A fun exercise. Write down ALL the taxes you pay ... income (all levels), property, sales, social security, medicare. Add in what you pay out ... tuition/school fees, insurance premiums, (don't forget to include your employer's share), deductibles and uncovered expenses. You will be surprised to find out in general the average American is paying MORE for less than our Scandinavian friends. Don't worry, that surprises them too!
11
Advanced countries produce enough wealth to take care of their weak. There is a sense of national pride in it, no one who’s Danish will have to starve or die from a treatable illness, or be deprived of a proper education.
Their road to full employment is high employability and cultural integration of near all citizens (which offsets their higher cost) which does make them more vulnerable to low educated immigration and perhaps it’s a model less suited to more diverse populations.
4
Danish people have 50% the 3 year survival rate of common cancers compared to other Savdanavian countries, which are significantly lower than the US to begin with. Most drugs are not even available here for full purchase because they are not on the governments list of reimbursement so distributors do not carry them. Moving from a US manged care plan to scandanavian health insurance will instantly take 10yrs from your life!!!
And americans dont pay 15% of salary towards insurance they cant use...
1
His best piece in a long time. This is the direction of a positive future for the U.S.. Denmark is thriving because it cares for the well-being of its citizens. It is considerably easier there due to size of the population and the fact that it is so homogeneous. But the fact remains that our Capitalism in Name Only government is failing taking care of the majority of people and driving inequality. The government has been bought off by the wealthy and innovation is beginning to get trampled as more and more monopolies are created.
4
Bravo Krugman. The "haves" scrambling to keep their large piece of the pie under the guise of Make America Great Again, abolish Obamacare, trickle down econ and glorification of the rich. We don't hate the rich. It's just that the balance and gap between rich and poor is too great. We don't want the rich to suffer, just give up a bit more. The best way to do that is to use government intelligently to do the common sense, the rational, and yes, the "right thing" to begin to balance the scales a bit more between rich and poor. Health care for all, good education for all, better wages, better jobs, cleaner air and water, more affordable housing, equal rights and a fairer justice system - these are what most folks want. Most folks. These are not extreme "wants". We could truly be Great, a great and caring country, and the rich would continue to get richer, just at a slightly slower rate of acceleration. Look at the tax formula in the good old days of Regan and Nixon. Corporations and the rich shared a bit more of their wealth. Call it what you want, that is what most folks are asking for. Greater common sense and fairness, for the benefit of all.
6
@Geo Olson, The best answer has always been "Redistribution of wealth."
This what being "civilized" has always been about.
1
Denmark is a great country that we could learn much from, no doubt. But it is so small, with limited resources, so old, with an established, homogenous culture (committed to one-way integration) and so interdependent on its scadanavian and european neighbors that its utility as a political model is limited and would likely lead to great debate and little change, if used this way. It so obviously "apples and oranges" here that I have to wonder whether Krugman is using Denmark as a straw man.... Canada, Australia, even New Zealand, are pioneer countries, like ours, that are more rich in resources, more independent and less culturally established. Let's see what THEY are getting right. Why not start with public education?
7
@carl bumba. The countries you mention are far less populous with a far less diverse population than the u.s. That is a key difference that the left doesn't like to talk about. They are realizing that importing poverty for the sake of diversity is not a winning strategy.
1
@Al: "As of 2014, more than 8% of the population of Denmark consists of immigrants." (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_Denmark)
Re: "They are realizing that importing poverty for the sake of diversity is not a winning strategy": There is no correlation between prevalence of immigrants and poverty. The three most impoverished states in the US (WV, MS, AR) have respectively 1.4%, 2.2%, and 4.5% foreign-born persons in their populations (https://www.indexmundi.com/facts/united-states/quick-facts/all-states/fo...
On the other hand, the state with the greatest percent of foreign-born, i.e., CA with 27%, is the 9th wealthiest state in the country.
The majority of people in the US are coming to understand that the right has its favorite myths and repeats them endlessly--- despite the presence of facts disproving them.
@Al
Very true.
But all independent variables can't be controlled. Though it is a big one, I think we could learn more from these countries than we could from Denmark - or a country like Brazil. Firstly, we have to be open to the idea of learning from a country other than our own. That's a painful step for some. I do think we need to distinguish between our established minorities and new immigrants. This idea of "importing poverty" is not really correct (if you consider their social mobility trends).
The "Democratic Party" may be turning back toward Social Assistance to some extent, but they have turned against Democracy. The have teamed up with the Federal Secret Police in an effort to nullify the last Presidential election.
2
@Paul Easton, If your final claim is true, then I hope they succeed. Trump's election was a very odd fluke.
2
@Paul Easton
The Republicans teamed up with the Russians to win the last election. I will take the Federal Secret Police over the Russians every day of the week.
2
Just tell me. Why shouldn't we be spending more of the money we send in taxes to Washington on making life better for the taxpayers rather than on tax breaks for corporations and extremely wealthy individuals who don't need it? And while you're at it explain to me how this distinction, this contradiction goes unrecognized by a significant portion of the voting population?
2
The model, which works for Denmark will not work for the U.S. Denmark is a way too small a country compared to us. Denmark has a relatively homogenous society, where the level of education and values between the haves and have nots is not that much. Whatever little system of social welfare we have here in the U.S. is rampantly abused by the takers, who actually think that the welfare is their right. If we want to be like Danes, teach the most of these people (not all, of course) on welfare roles, the value of hard work.
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This country is a mix of socialism and capitalism - socialism for the rich and capitalism for everyone else. The public discussion should be about the nature of that mix. At present, we take from the U.S. taxpayer oil and gas depletion allowances, tax deductions for drilling wells, and more, for a total of more than $37 billion of citizens' subsidies to industries that cost us in climate change, public health, and lost distribution. That's socialism for the rich. https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/green/reports/2016/05/26/138049/... The real question is why do we keep electing people who do this to us?
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@Martha E. Ture. But we are part of the problem. You complain about subsidies for oil companies, but EVERYBODY likes cheap gas in this country. BHO knew that nobody gets reelected with expensive gas so he facilitated the biggest boom in oil and gas exploration since the early 70s. Yes, we have a lot of things wrong but many are due to our wanting our cake and to eat it as well. No politician in this country ever got elected by telling Americans they needed to sacrifice. Ask jimmy carter or Al gore.
The Right is guilty of creating a climate of every man for himself, but the Left is also guilty of creating a climate of every minority for itself.
Once a minority becomes a hiring manager they feel compelled to promote blatant group-interest. A year later most of their hires will look like them, often taking over various industries where they create small monopolies.
This is actually a natural human preference! For the last 2.5 million years since Homo Sapiens had appeared, we have organized ourselves in tribes and small groups of related people who looked the same and shared the same values.
As a non multicultural nation state, the Danes are more socially cohesive than the Americans. Redistribution is much easier when people belong to a very cohesive community.
Hence this difficult choice for the US Liberals:
A) either adopt social democracy and fair redistribution schemes with the price of ending open border policies and focusing on assimilation of the people e already here in the next 100 years, or:
B) keep the open border and identity politics as is, and make any viable social democracy a utopia.
B is more politically expedient, A will provide better returns for the next century for those already here, but would be highly unpopular to implement.
1
If government represented the will and interests of the community it would even be meaningful if it controlled the means of production, as production would not just be for profit and driven by markets maipulated by advertising. But of course when you have a government that is controlled by special interests i.e. the rich, military industrial complex or by a dictator then the government is indeed the enemy and socialism run by a dictatorship is also not desirable.
What we need is democratic socialism. Even the social democracies in Europe are in crisis too (Germany, France, Italy) as they ended up being compromised by the corporate interests that they were supposed to control and have started become more neoliberal. They are no longer representing the will and interests of the community at large, which consist of people that work for a living.
@heinrich zwahlen This theory has been tried repeatedly with the same results over and over. It leads to death and starvation. The best relationship people have to one another is enlightened self interest. I provide something of use to you and you do the same in return. Capitalism has decreased poverty by a scale that never existed any any other system and never will. Enlightened self interest is a far more efficient tool than benevolence.
@John. Dead and starving Danes? Got pictures?
The Right is guilty of creating a climate of every man for himself, but the Left is also guilty of creating a climate of every minority for itself.
Once a minority becomes a hiring manager they feel compelled to promote blatant group-interest. A year later most of their hires will look like them, often taking over various industries where they create small monopolies.
This is actually a natural human preference! For the last 2.5 million years since Homo Sapiens had appeared, we have organized ourselves in tribes and small groups of related people who looked the same and shared the same values.
As a non multicultural nation state, the Danes are more socially cohesive than the Americans. Redistribution is much easier when people belong to a very cohesive community.
Hence this difficult choice for Linerals
A) either adopt social democracy and fair redistribution schemes in with the prices of ending open border policies and focusing on assimilation of the people e already here in the next 100 years, or
B) keep the open border and identity politics as is and make any viable social democracy a utopia.
B is more politically expedient, A will provide better returns for the next century, but would be highly unpopular to implement.
There are many differences between here and Denmark and much of Western Europe. The Education system, a better educated populous, a much smaller poverty class, a unifying culture and shared values, much less racial strife (much less diversity), an economy run as though workers have some value. Our values reflect: increasing diversity at all costs, importing the poor and not addressing the already gigantic under class here now, neglecting an education system that can barely cope with the crush of unprepared students, short term corporate profits over longterm stabilty and workers rights, etc. in short, the u.s. reflects a quantity over quality mind set. More people, more consumers, more workers, more cheap junk, assembly line education system and we are moving toward a country that resembles central or South America rather than western democracies. At the same time as Europe is waking up to mass immigration of the last few years they may find they are moving in a direction that more rembles where we are headed. The rules of civilization are changing rapidly, hopefully the leaders on both sides of the pond will do the hard analysis and choices that are required.
Editorials like this remind me of why, though I voted happily for her, Clinton irked me so. It was her "I love Denmark, but we're not Denmark" "zinger" to Sanders during one of the debates. She made essentially the case that conservatives make: no, we can't.
The sooner the Dems fully embrace a platform of improving people's lives, the better off they'll be.
3
I bet Denmark also has better maintained bridges than either the US (Minneapolis, MN) or Italy.
2
Of course, Denmark does have a bit more to spend on domestic programs than many countries since its military budget is just a bit over 1% of its GDP.
1
And ours is 3.5%. Meanwhile, healthcare spending is 18% of GDP, 1/3 of which is wasted, starting with 22% for insurance profits. That’s $1 trillion a year.
Denmark doesn’t have extra money because it skips on defense. It spends more because it taxes more, and gets more because it wastes less on private contracts and things like prisons.
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@James K. Lowden
Utter poppycock: military and intelligence spending, including military pensions and healthcare, account for approximately 26 cents of every federal dollar spent.
On the other hand, totally agree that outside of shrinking military spending the first step to national fiscal budget control is to get the profit out of most health care, and if we can’t have single payer, then let’s hope what Warren Buffet and Atul Gawande’s efforts to start a national healthcare nonprofit bears fruit. Not sure if their concept includes getting that nonprofit big enough to be able to “buy into” Medicare for participants less than 65 years of age, but let’s hope so. A true not for profit medical insurance program, run by a lean nonprofit, could be the “aikido” move that could get us out of this health care debacle.
@Michael. Mike, you seem to be implying that the market place isn't solving our health care mess. I thought letting big pharma, insurance companies and health care corporations run our health care was going to get us cheaper, better care? Socialism occasionaly shows us that the financial bottom line is not always the best goal to aim for.
Could it be that “free market capitalists” cannot abide “nobody gets left behind” because of some warped values? That stingy judgement from their lofty perch just feels righteous to them? That only they know the value of hard work, and those that need help don’t? That those needy folks below have character flaws that disqualify them from the free market fruits?
Or could it be that some people just tend to get meaner as their bank accounts (and societal power) grow?
4
The press doesn’t report on the message of Democrats because nearly everything we read, hear, or see is somehow tied to Rupert Murdoch and other corporatists. Fascists learned long ago that you must control all aspects of the media in order to shape the narrative, offer a platform for lies, and push the business interests of the oligarchs. tRump is more right than not when he talks about fake news. This article is a tiny step in the right direction - but we have to have a full court press against the Republican’ts - and no more Bernie bashing, calling his ideas impracticable.
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Detractors will ascribe the characteristics of the fictional "Jante Law' to the Danes. Let them go ahead & do it. I myself will choose a society where I can roam freely without having to worry about being beaten & robbed on my morning constitution or insulted by people inclined to mental invective.
I will choose to be "a lion of all I survey" over a greedy & rapacious pretender. Denmark is to be congratulated & if at all possible, emulated by the citizens of any nation state.
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I was surprised when my 20 year old son told me that socialism can't be that bad, that college and health should be "free". This from a college student in Texas A&M.
And it's not like he worries about his future college debt, because we are paying completely for his education. So I believe that conservatives should be worrying quite a bit, because when the old white folk die, they'll see their worst nightmare completely realized.
2
@Numas
" their worst nightmare completely realized"
The nightmare of universal health care, of social security that actual is secure, universal education for all. What a nightmare for your parents, what a wonderful reality for the majority.
@wanderer
I guess you got me wrong. I think that is wonderful that he thinks about the benefit of society at large before his own benefit, even when he has an advantage in the system right now. And I do want those same things myself
When I argue with my Trumpian friends, the conversation always seems to end up partisan rather than ideological. The truth is that no one can answer my simplest question. What truly defines a Democrat and what truly defines a Republican? On what glorious principles were they based? What defines their core ideals? I am answered with total silence and glazed eyes. And now you want to throw in a new one, Social Democrats.
The thorough take over of the Republican Party by the religious right, the Tea Party, the non college whites and wackos in general has thrown conflicting and confusing issues into the Republican hopper so that political agendas for the poor and economic agendas for the wealthy not only disguise but reinforce their total ideological confusion.
And on the other side, the recent trendy insertion of Social Democract into the Democratic lingo also forces some to look inward to see or try to discover what being a Democrat really means. What is this new dynamic and does anyone out there really know the difference between a Socialist and a Social Democrat? Or is this just fodder for the Fox attack agenda?
The basic ideals and objectives of both parties have been lost in the fray. Petty politics rather than big ideas for the common good are easier to argue about. Mainly because no thinking is needed.
It's time to regroup. It's time to rethink who we are. The petty and childish uninformed bullying must stop. It's time to find a true leader.
During my many visits to Denmark, I have enjoyed a country where a large and prosperous middle class does not live in fear of being financially crushed by the costs of higher education, health care, or the personal and financial burdens created by irresponcible military adventurism. It does not pander to gun nuts, Fox News zombies, bigots, or far-out religious zealots. Instead the government, since it is not run my a clatch of billionaire cronies, attacks the more dangerous and immeadiate threat of environmental damage. Rather than socialism, I would simply call it government that takes its responcibility for leadership seriously. We should demand that our government act similarly.
15
Denmark is a very different society from the US.
Instead of a belief in 'rugged individualism' there appears to be a belief in the fact that we are all interdependent. The traffic in Copenhagen illustrates that--the cars, bicycles, and pedestrians obey the rules and respect each other.
The pure capitalists in the US are quite simply wrong. The manufacturer didn't create his (or her) wealth alone. It depended on the employed workers, and the infrastructure necessary to get the product to market--including publicly funded roads. Romney didn't create anything except personal wealth.
Every child can achieve his or her potential through free tertiary education, and can expect to live longer thanks to a sane, publicly funded health care, which costs less than two thirds of the 18% of GDP in the US.
If this is socialism--bring it on!
9
@James Currie And yet the employer, employee relationship is a voluntary one. If a person has capacity to do better then they are free to do so. If you have better ideas than your employer that would actually be more efficient and make more money then there is nothing stopping you from starting your own business. If as you insinuate, that wealthy people don’t earn their wealth, then why do 50% of businesses fail and 50% of corporations not earn a profit? The Pareto theory exists for a reason. 80% of productivity comes from 20% of the people. Also, the infrastructure argument is nonsensical. Government has no funding for infrastructure without the taxes from wealth building. Funding came before the infrastructure was created. If not for capitalistic endeavor, the infrastructure would not exist.
Denmark afforded me the privilege of spending time at Copenhagen University learning Danish with many other wonderful interesting lovely fellow world citizens - all on Denmark's ticket. I've spent some time traveling in Denmark - wonderful and yes happy memories; even a stroll in a lovely Danish cemetery is an uplifting experience. My ancestors were Danish and came to the US for opportunity; would that I could return now to Denmark - for opportunity and the hope of better quality of life. Ironic.
5
I just returned from a vacation in Copenhagen and was amazed at what I saw. Happy, healthy people riding bikes to work. No homeless people and very few displays of ostentatious wealth. I spoke with a great number of locals, many of them immigrants and people of color. When asked where are the homeless poor the universal response is that it would be inhumane to let a person sleep in the street. If you don't have a place to stay we (the government) will find you a place and a productive job. Taxes are very high and progressive and there is a squezze to Middle class. This amazingly makes poeple happy. Go figure.
6
We have close friends in Denmark, exchange visits, etc. I spend a lot of time these days explaining to my Danes what is happening here. They are genuinely concerned for us, as one might be for an elderly relative who recently set her furniture on fire because she wanted a new look.
Denmark isn't a utopia and doesn't aspire to be. Denmark is a small country, poor in natural resources, It lives in the shadows of bigger more powerful neighbors. Personal indebtedness is high. A recent influx of foreigners who are not assimilating is worrisome. But there is hygge. And Danes feel that what is done for one is done for all Danes. They trust the system and believe it is virtuous.
Contrast that to our country where our very diversity nurtures our xenophobia. We assume that some undeserving person here, who is not like us, is getting something from the government at our expense. We think we pay too much in taxes and get too little back. The only thing that binds us together is war, and even war is losing its potency now that we are engaged in endless conflicts fought out of sight and out of mind by our universal soldiers.
9
I consider myself a progressive Democrat. Don't fully understand your love of the Danish government when it is going to require "cultural indoctrination" of its minority citizens. I fully agree with their universal health coverage, a more equal distribution of wealth, etc. I cannot condone the taking of very young children in a mandatory fashion, away from their parents to "educate" them ....perhaps a kinder approach with more minority input would be acceptable.
@Stephen Jacobs MD Paul Krugman writes on economics.
1
Several years ago one of my Republican, Trump-supporting relatives on Facebook posted an article on Facebook about Denmark, suggesting to her mother that they should retire there. I wanted to respond that, hey, you could have something more secure and stable like Denmark here if you and your mom could see beyond labels and support "socialists" like Obama or Hillary.
Denmark is not socialist. It has a market economy.
2
Denmark has a mixed economy.
@Cindi T
So does America. So does every nation in the world today.
@Ronny: yes, I know that...as do many most developed nations. My comment was a response to Skippy. But thanks for mansplainin'.
Capitalism elevates greed to public policy. Socialism raises altruism to public policy. I'll go with socialism any day.
1
Socialism, democratic socialism, social democracy. These terms, used with genuine intent, make the kind of distinctions which are essential in any meaningful discussion of how to achieve governments capable of nurturing prosperity, humanity and freedom.
Mitt Romney's sneer at "socialist democrats in Europe", whether craftily designed or simply ignorant, might be seen as merely laughable were it not for two things: (1) it is a junk phrase clogging and garbling public discourse, and (2) in 2012, with regard to presidential candidates and crafted ignorance, the world had seen nothing yet.
1
Words have power. The Republicans are master marketeers. They know they can call our social safety net and public goods and services "socialism" and paint it with all the horrors of fascism. Fascism is a political not an economic system.
We can't educate our way out of this mess. People associate socialism with fascism, so we need another name for a strong social safety net and adequate investments in infrastructure, health, education and the general welfare of the people.
How about Democratic Capitalism? Let all the people decide what to do with the wealth that capitalism creates, not just the capitalists.
USA is not Denmark but our economy needn't be so cruel to the less well off., unfortunately with the GOP in control of all the branches of gov't it gets more and more so.
I think that even without Trump but another Republican Pres the tax structure changes would be very similar. The gop seems to one objective to send as much money to the rich and to take it from the bottom 90 percent.
6
We should start using the term "Health Democrats" instead of Socialist Democrats. We could start by focusing part of the campaigns on Health insurance for all. Healthy could include required sick pay, vacations, maternity leave, and a host of other needed changes. Using the term 'Health' also removes the Rightwingnuts ability to spout nonsense about the evils of democratic socialism and equating it to communism.
2
Everything said in this article is correct, except for the estimation of the Democratic Party. Its leadership, in no way, supports the tenants of Democratic Socialism.
When Nancy Pelosi declares that the test of leadership in the Party is how much fast, Corporate cash you can summon, when DNC Chair Tom Perez can violate his own Party directives and go ahead and pocket that fossil fuel campaign money, you begin to understand why they just suffered the worst electoral defeat in the history of American politics.
The rank and file can call themselves Democratic Socialists, but the leadership is the Central Wing of the American Corporate Party. It's the money, again and always.
2
Good grief...the population of Denmark is about 6 million. I call your Denmark and raise you with Venezuela. Demographics matter too. Women in Denmark average less than two children per woman. If I tell you that I can balance my families finances and question why the federal government can not do the same I will be told it is apples to oranges comparison and scale matters.
2
The American One Percent understands that their economic and political advantages are in direct odds with those of the American middle class, and they will keep up this barrage of brainwashing and misinformation to protect those advantages. It's obviously been working. They will never ever give up their power willingly, no matter how well other forms of government are working for people in other countries. They chose to be rich in a poor country many years ago.
1
Perhaps you would all be happier living in Denmark, a country of about 5 million. Enjoy paying $125,000 for a Honda Accord (world’s most expensive place to own a car) or a tax rate that is just under 80% without any “loopholes” for cover. Think about the pleasure of paying a 25% VAT (sales tax). Right now, the Danish Government is under financial stress due to the costs of the EU’s immigration policies and its open border. Perhaps you can help them solve the problem, Tom.
But you are right about the Dane’s level of happiness. They are a happy people but worry about the future for their children as a growing number of people are “taking” from the system and not working.
By the way, I’m the son of a Danish immigrant and have close ties to our family there. We enjoy many evenings when we are together discussing politics and our two systems of government.
2
@DGMcG
Maybe there is some sweet spot between state controlled socialism and brutal capitalism. We should try to find it.
Reading this I was irresistibly reminded of what Harry Lime (Orson Welles) told Holly Martin (Joseph Cotten) in the movie "The Third Man."
Harry Lime: "Don't be so gloomy. After all it's not that awful. Like the fella says, in Italy for 30 years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder, and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switzerland they had brotherly love - they had 500 years of democracy and peace, and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock. So long Holly."
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Let's be honest about how powerful psychology is. The earliest friend I can remember was named Bunny. I broke my "glass ceiling." I obviously live in Pennsylvania and do not want to be used as a means to a political end by secular or religious.
I think identity politics has done some real damage. Stories change so quickly it makes one's head spin (thanks Goergetown pun intended).
Some of this is not funny.
1
The greatest slight-of-hand trick ever performed by the right was redefining the word "capitalism." The way people talk about our economy, you'd think it's an entirely fixed, rigid system that can only exist as it presently does. In reality, capitalism has myriad permutations. It's a remarkably simple set of tenants that are compatible with many political systems and ideologies.
A person who supports the policies championed by Ocasio-Cortez is not by definition a "democratic socialist." They're a progressive capitalist. They support strategically restricting and augmenting aspects of our capitalist economy –and that's as American as apple pie! Ever heard of anti-trust laws, comrade? The federal minimum wage? Child labor laws? We've tweaked our version of capitalism many times before. proletariat. We don't need a new vernacular to get it done.
In the late 1940s and into the early 1960s, a lot of Europeans wanted to immigrate to the USA and Canada. A lot of them did, including my parents. (We children didn't have much asy in the matter.) Now, when I travel to visit my relatives, I notice that they have a a much better life than 60 years ago. Oh, they don't have as much stuff, but the stuff they have is of better quality. Most of all, they have more time.
2
Just as establishment Republicans were forced by popular demand to get on the Trump Train, establishment Democrats are now trying to own the social democratic platform of Bernie Sanders, to whom, just two years ago, they were doing ALL they could to derail. Shameless. They must think we have no collective memory, whatsoever. Krugman reveals his true free-market ideology by his 'bait and switch' of Medicare for All with his "market-friendly" alternative.
1
I thought you were a renowned economist really? With a population in 2018 of 5,754,356 and America with 326,766,748 and you want to compare and be taken seriously? If you want to compare Denmark to something try Kibbutzim in Israel. Where until the last 20 to 30 years ago were the poster place for socialism. You see until they ran out of other people's money and almost brought down an entire country's economy, but were saved by the capitalist government.
@Harif2
I have to respond to this only because it reflects one of three arguments I hear repeatedly from conservatives when they say what works in Europe won't work in the US:
1. The US is too big. There's no evidence that size actually makes it impossible to have good social programs. In fact, you could just as easily argue that size makes it more possible as our economy is larger too. Nevertheless, if size is such an obstacle, just implement the changes on a state level—or if necessary break up the US into smaller countries that can govern themselves better. If the US is too big to be successful, then why keep it big?
2. The US is too diverse. Not quite sure what to make of this. I live in Toronto now. Diversity doesn't seem to hurt us. If anything, immigrants from all over the world come here and add more wealth to our economy, which makes better social programs more possible, not less, particularly as our native population ages.
3. The US defends the whole world—all the other countries have their social programs because the US pays for their defense. Well, just stop paying then. Mostly, it seems, the expenditures go to unnecessary adventures in foreign countries and the coffers of the big defense manufacturers. If Europe finds that without the US it needs to spend more on defense, it will. But I suspect the problem is the US spends too much more than Europe spending too little.
6
Now please explain why population size matters. Denmark is 5 million. France is 60 million. The European Union is larger than the United States. What of it?
The simple fact is that the United States is the largest industrialized democracy. If no country can serve as an example because it’s smaller, then no example is acceptable. That’s a ridiculous, self-serving perspective unless you can demonstrate why our larger size prevents us implementing a comprehensive social welfare system.
By the way, the idea that bigness prevents reform is historically inaccurate. The United States invented universal public education, a national park system, and social security. It removed lead from paint and gasoline, led the effort to remove CFCs from industrial use, built the interstate highway system, and put a man on the moon.
All were firsts. We didn’t wait for Denmark, and it wasn’t impossible because we were too big. It was possible because we tried. We should start trying again.
2
@James K. Lowden
I think the point of the three common arguments I outlined above is that each sounds plausible and each is impossible to disprove as there are no comparator countries of similar size. Of course, each of the three arguments is also impossible to prove. But the rhetorical trick is to present something plausible-sounding as fact, then force your opponent into the fool's errand of trying to disprove it. Your response is the right one: "prove your claim." Of course it can't be proved for the very same reason it can't be disproved. But maybe the best response is to say, "well if there's no proof one way or the other, let's just try it and see if it works."
The Free Market: The Freedom to starve. The Freedom to be without shelter, The Freedom to have 54,000 Homeless People in one urban area.(LA)
Socialism, and any other type of ism, is okay in a country that has good social and cultural discipline, norms, values, and other more normative characteristics like that.
3
We are not Denmark
(Hillary Clinton to Bernie Sanders , Presidential Debate)
1
If the USA didn't spend trillions of dollars fighting insane wars all over the world the US population could have more "free stuff" as well. I wish I could live in Denmark.
1
Deja vu all over again. I went to college in the '50s, so I'm old enough to remember the political wars of the time. It was an article of conservative faith that liberal = socialism = communism. When I occasionally tried to explain to one or another Republican that almost all Democrats were actually anti-communist, I was invariably met with disbelief.
My first inkling of this view on the part of Democrats came from within my own family. My father, who was a '30s radical, was also a member of the CP. However, he tore up his card in August 1939, as soon as he heard that Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia had entered into a nonaggression pact. (I was age one at the time, and only years later did I learn about what he had done.) He became a Roosevelt Democrat, and I suspect that that label would fit many of those who now identify with, or are sympathetic to, what we presently call socialism.
1
"But U.S. conservatives — like Fox’s Regan — continually and systematically blur the distinction between social democracy and socialism."
And as those of us who grew up during the Cold War years had drummed into our little heads (incorrectly, I might add), Socialism is the same as Communism.
As Michael Harrington wrote more than 60 years ago, "Socialism for the rich, capitalism for the poor."
As far as suggesting that the drones at Fox become acquainted with facts on almost any subject, I'm afraid that's one of your more humorous ideas.
3
The elderly white male Fox viewers do not know the definitions of socialism, communism, capitalism, the welfare state or a mixed economy. They beieve that America has the highest standard of living even though the facts and data refute this. Fox "news" simply spews out propaganda to the misinformed. They believe it and view Trump as their hero even though he is a champion of the rich, not the working class. Conservative radio hosts probably broadcast more lies than Fox "news."
5
In 2012, Mitt Romney declared that Obama got his ideas from “socialist democrats in Europe.”
Oh?
Obama got the model for the Affordable Care Act from the Massachusetts health plan supported by a Republican Governor named Mitt Romney.
MAGA? What would make America great is a healthy and educated workforce. Is government investment in health care and education 1) supporting social democracy or 2) underwriting capitalism's need for human capital?
Good luck trying to replicate what Denmark does for a relatively homogenous population less than 6 million people in a counry like the U.S. with over 325 million people and a much more diverse population. Let me know how that works out.
4
Re "The simple fact is that there is far more misery in America than there needs to be."
I have come to suspect over these past few decades that a rather large chunk of the American electorate *wants* there to be misery. Or rather, it wants "those people," or as many of them as possible, to live in misery.
How else to account for the fact that millions of people will figuratively shoot themselves in the face just to make sure "those people" don't receive any benefits they "don't deserve"?
11
“The salient fact of American politics is that there are fifty to seventy million voters each of whom will volunteer to live, with his family, in a cardboard box under an overpass, and cook sparrows on an old curtain rod, if someone would only guarantee that the black, gay, Hispanic, liberal, whatever, in the next box over doesn’t even have a curtain rod, or a sparrow to put on it.”
- commenter Davis X. Machine, Balloon Juice
2
@Pony
"How else to account for the fact that millions of people will figuratively shoot themselves in the face just to make sure "those people" don't receive any benefits they "don't deserve"
I would call it stupidity.
1
" The simple fact is that there is far more misery in America than there needs to be. "
True enough --- for a great many countries. Perhaps even for some melancholic Danes. ;-)
And yet, Krugman and fellow NYTers keep trying to get more and more people to come to this "misery-ridden" USA. Of course, they don't have to sweat too much: The visa-seeking lines at every US consulate are long, and NPR proudly reported someone paying $25,000 to be smuggled into the US. All that just to take part
1
@boroka
You don't see them pouring in from those so called socialistic countries.
And what about the capitalism under Trump, tariff wars, trade wars, sanctions, government interference in US businesses to punish and reward based on the wishes of the "dear leader". I would take Denmark socialism any day over Trump capitalism.
4
Professor Krugman omitted another important fact-studies show that Denmark is the happiest country in the world!
2
The following is from the 7/1/18 NYT article "In Denmark, Harsh New Laws for Immigrant ‘Ghettos’"
"Denmark’s government is introducing a new set of laws to regulate life in 25 low-income and heavily Muslim enclaves, saying that if families there do not willingly merge into the country’s mainstream, they should be compelled.
For decades, integrating immigrants has posed a thorny challenge to the Danish model, intended to serve a small, homogeneous population. Leaders are focusing their ire on urban neighborhoods where immigrants ... live in dense concentrations with high rates of unemployment and gang violence.
Starting at the age of 1, “ghetto children” must be separated from their families for at least 25 hours a week, not including nap time, for mandatory instruction in “Danish values,” including the traditions of Christmas and Easter, and Danish language. Noncompliance could result in a stoppage of welfare payments."
Dr. Krugman, if we adopt Denmark’s form of socialism, should all immigrants be required to learn English and American values?
3
@ann. You are pointing out what the left in this country doesn't want to talk about. Diversity for the sake of diversity and mass immigration is not: empowering, make you stronger, help the economy or anything else. Unfortunatley the democrats cannot convince most Americans to vote for more open borders, more amnesty more poverty, more taxes, etc. they continue to play into the rights agenda. The Democratic Party used to be for American workers and an agenda that helped grow the middle class. That has been abandoned. Regular people of all races are now caught between the open borders party and the corporate party.
1
@ann - I read the article when it came out.
"Separating" children from their families for 25 hours a week actually means requiring them to go to school, as is the norm in most of Europe. Unfortunately some of the first generation immigrants arriving in Denmark have not been sending their children to school, creating a problem of integration. It's impossible to succeed in society without the local language and a basic grounding in the social norms.
The new laws are not written targeting any specific ethnic/religious group and apply to all people living in the previously under-served areas, with higher crime rates.
The laws provide resources to help immigrants find employment. They expand policing in high-crime areas. They encourage recent immigrants not to cluster into isolated enclaves and to integrate the larger society. They also provide daycare and preschool for small children, which serves a two-fold purpose. 1. It enables parents to work. 2. It leads children away from crime. Recent increases in petty crime have been attributable in part to youths who were not fully schooled.
Personally I think many people living in our poorest neighborhoods here in the USA would benefit from similar policies, more access to daycare and education, assistance with job-finding, and more focused policing to reduce petty crime.
3
@J Jencks Thank you for extracting the real information from the Fake News spin that seems to be norm from conservatives nowadays. The moral decay on the right is simply flabbergasting.
“[Socialism]… is the genuine resolution of the antagonism between man and nature and between man and man; it is the true resolution of the conflict between existence and essence, objectification and self-affirmation, freedom and necessity, individual and species. It is the riddle of history solved and knows itself as this solution.”
Marx
Denmark has school vouchers nationally!
We tried this here in the 1965-85; it was a disaster; we are still doing this in Detroit --- people have to behave responsibly given taxpayers largess and in America, people have not and do not. Look at the crime rate of people receiving benefits.
1
The differences between a European 'boutique' country and the U.S.A. are vast. Mr. Krugman doesn't even address them. What is the population of Denmark? What is their tax structure? Answers: The population of the COUNTRY of Denmark is 5.8 million, or about 25% fewer people than in THE CITY of New York, or about 1/55th that of the U.S.A. . The tax rate is about 50% for most people. Enough said. They have a value added tax on almost all purchases of 25% (oh, 180% on cars; maybe that's why we seen them riding bicycles). How can Krugman write this column about their socialism and not include such pertinent information. How can the Times print it?
2
A point wasted on Americans: Danes are always at the top of the list of the happiest people on the world.
3
@Orange Nightmare This is because happiness in no way is judged by finding out how happy people are. It is judged by people who assume that if you have x, y, and z then you will be more happy. In reality, antidepressant sales in Scandinavian countries indicate that they are every bit as depressed as the rest of the world.
A consistent message, repeated loudly and constantly for decades, works! The very idea of a social safety net is Socialism, and socialism is really Communism; it's UN-American! Americans are independent, six-guns on our hips, eyes fixed on the horizon far beyond the Frontier. Americans believe in Freedom: freedom to be homeless, to be hungry, to have no access to health care, to be unable to afford education -- who needs book-learnin anyway? Freedom to raze forests and pour poisons into the air and water without interference from Big Government. The poor have none but themselves to blame for their poverty. Redistribution from rich to poor is Class Warfare (Godless Communism); redistribution from poor to rich is The American Way (God wants (some) people to be rich). It's long past time for Democrats -- and socialists -- to hone a consistent message and say it loudly. It works!
6
I'd love to see a documentary where 20 Americans who believe that socialism, or at least what Americans define as socialism, is evil, are taken on a all-expense paid 3 week tour of these countries. Give them a couple of days to explore on their own, so they can't accuse their hosts of covering up the bad stuff. Let the viewer see what they see. And then let's examine their reactions during and at the end of their 3-week experience.
3
"The simple fact is that there is far more misery in America than there needs to be." I think that sums it up, and I also think that quack economists are like quack doctors who judge a medicine's efficacy on how bad it tastes: economies need to inflict on high level of pain to work. Not on the rich, of course, who are motivated by tax breaks, but on the poor and middle class who need fear and hungry bellies or they won't roll out of bed in the morning.
The question is what will cause the core Trump base to suddenly wake up and go: huh?
That will take a very bad recession. As we know, the core Republican base has essentially written off both fact and critical thinking. The only thing that will move their opinion and that will be horrible economic pain not unlike the Great Depression where the impact is immediate and unavoidable.
Is this likely to happen? Maybe. With huge and accelerating deficits and we really don't know - nor will we for a while (think Kansas) - how big the drop in revenue will be. But let's say total debt jumps to 100% of GDP. With Federal revenues dropping to 15% of GDP it will be ugly.
All we need is just a slight downturn and boom, the dominoes will fall and it will be very difficult to correct since both fiscal and monetary policy will be so constrained. The type of Fed engineering that happened in 2009 not likely to repeat.
If we all remember our history, it was government policy that drove the Great Depression and its tariff war. Things were improving and then FDR cut spending and it all started again. Not fixed until the massive spending of WWII.
Are we in the same place? Did the 2008 recession not really fix things and the Trump shift in policy going to bring it all back?
Stay tuned.
..."there is far more misery in America than there needs to be."
If only every American would think about this for just a minute. I don't think Americans are unkind. Examples of our individual generosity are everywhere. A kid in a small town gets cancer and the donation jars are filled at every coffee shop. We give tons of money to charities. We help our neighbors.
But we don't seem to be able to expand our definition of who our neighbors are. Unfortunately we have a president who encourages us to think even more narrowly... it is easier to dismiss the misery of people outside whatever circle we have drawn, especially if we are told that the people within our circle will suffer if those "others" are cared for.
And we Americans have a deep distrust of government...that has at times been our strength, and at other times it has kept us from being all we could be because we are unable to see and use government as the powerful tool it could be to reduce misery and increase our "commonwealth," a term that is regrettably becoming increasingly quaint.
I personally think my life is better if the guy next door is educated and healthy. As well as the guy ten miles away, a hundred miles, a thousand miles away. I guess Denmark is lucky to be such a small country. Takes less imagination...
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Thank your for an excellent article, and as usual I learned something.
It is a funny thing about semantics and I don't understand why socialism and liberalism are such dirty words. Re-distribution of wealth is good for the economy, and caring about the rights of others as well as your own is good for the country, especially when it is a democracy.
2
Danes may be well educated, healthy and happy, but how will they ever achieve world domination without a huge military to fight wars to advance business interests?
2
Nice article. However, I can't help but lament the timing. Opinion pieces like this might have been useful, say the last few months of 2015 through the first few months of 2016. Instead Dr. Krugman remained silent about the Sanders campaign, assuming it would die out when Bernie's lance hit the windmill. And then, when it looked like he actually stood a chance, Dr. Krugman came down on the side of "being realistic," and threw his support behind the "electable" candidate that didn't frighten Wall Street, the Medical Industrial Complex, and bankers.
@crankyoldman: The article is about Denmark...NOT Bernie. Two years ago, Bernie lost the nomination. Get over it. Hillary won the popular vote by 3,000,000.
I bet for Trump's voting base, that watches Fox news, everything you said about Denmark is due to the country being white. They probably would agree with all of Denmark's policies if America was majority white, too. Unfortunately for them, race explains everything. Fox continues to focus on Ocasio-Cortez because the image of her advocating for social-democracy and universal healthcare is confirmation that brown people are crashing through our borders to demand benefits. Meanwhile, Bernie has been championing her message for longer, and the elite media's strategy is to not give him airtime because he is more relate-able to white, rural America who might be inspired by Universal healthcare.
3
We could learn a lot from Denmark. Danes have a healthier balance between work and home life; the idea that anyone would go bankrupt because of an unanticipated illness horrifies them; the thought that Danish citizens could be left behind because of the greed of the wealthy is profoundly offensive. In yearly surveys Danes are ranked as among the happiest people in the world (as are other Scandinavians who have similar forms of government). This is something of a misnomer (some Danes are, in fact, melancholy) -- Danes are content. There is so much in their day-to-day lives that they don't have to worry about that are obsessions for Americans -- medical and drug expenses, education costs, elder care, almost total individual responsibility for retirement planning, etc. ANY concept of collective planning or social burden-sharing is falsely portrayed in the U. S. as a somber, Soviet-like confiscation of personal assets. The Danes show that a social democracy can lead to a more fulfilling life.
1
Why do people keep imagining that the same system of government will work equally well for all countries? Differences in population size and density, differences in terrain and natural resources, differences in the degree of diversity, and differences in history and culture, all dictat that each country needs to find its own form of government. That’s one of the beauties of our union of states with a fair amount of local control.
1
@ Stefan, i would argue that local state control is a bug not a feature. Originally used as a means to get southern slave owner states into the union, it has grown out of all control in our current landscape. When you have one state offering a lack of enforcement of environmental and regulatory controls companies move to that state, make a mess, and then pack up and leave, literally dumping their trash on the citizens of the state.
1
Excellent, well-reasoned and right on the mark! What conservatives fear most is Americans waking up and realizing that they can have a just society by uniting and voting.
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@ William, it's not conservatives. It's the wealthy. There's no such thing as a conservative. If you look at Republicans they are not deficit hawks or anti-government except when Democrats propose it
1
@Sir, I respectfully disagree. The people supporting brutal capitalism is a larger group than wealthy Americans and is represented by American political conservatism routed in the 19th century. The term Pragmatists or Social Darwinists could also be used, but they do in have as strong a political context.Rocko World
It seems that the U.S. government might learn a few things from the government in Denmark. Not only do they a better job of providing for the average person in society, they run a tighter ship fiscally.
From 1995 to 2017, the government has run a very small surplus as compared to the enormous budget deficits in the U.S.
3
Paul Krugman needs to be called out again.
Everyone loves Denmark, but Denmark couldn't be Denmark if the US weren't the US.
There is tech of course (how many Danish apps are there?), but take the case of medicines. According to Kevin Drum, the Danes pay about 1/4 of what Americans pay for the same medicines -- more than half of those medicines invented by US companies. Even most of the other medicines would not exist without the American market.
Or take the defense of Denmark. The US spends three times as much of its GDP on defense as Denmark does, even though Denmark is a short blitzkrieg away from a Russian invasion. How is that possible? The good old USA is what stands between Denmark and Putin.
They are wonderful people, and I am happy they are happy. But they free ride. (There is an honest definition of socialism). And the Danes are hoping that we won't imitate them.
5
@ian, huh? Are you suggesting that the United States system where people over pay for medication and pump a third of our GDP into defense spending is somehow better than taking all that money and spending it on the welfare of our citizens? That might be the dumbest thing I've heard in a week and remember this week includes Donald Trump defending the revocation of Brennan's security clearance.
1
@Rocko
Hey, Rocko, that's OUR money they are handing out. And if we go out of business, where will they get their new drugs and who will keep them out of Putin's clutches?
So when Putin invades, will you be the first in line to present him with a bouquet?
Defense spending is what allows you to oppose defense spending.
The rear-guard fight that conservatives are waging to impose their idealized concept of capitalism is as effective as Trump's effort to restore coal to its predominance. Full fledged-capitalism that was necessary for the initial development of the economy, lost its claim to be the sole motor of the economy when it degenerated into monopoly
and ruthless drive to profits, forgetting the suffering of hard-working laborers . Nevertheless, it has proven to be an essential element for innovation and development and cannot be excluded. What we are left with is a rational system of corrective steps that modify, attenuate or remedy the negative consequences of what unchecked capitalism
brings about. From damaging bank speculation, to pollution, to savage prescription prices, the list is as long as the errors that humans are capable of. Economic and financial regulations are similar to the rules of a game. Can you imagine what a football game without
rules that protect players or provide fairness would be like? Fukuyama arrived at the conclusion that democratic liberalism is the end game. That may be the solution that little by little will be accepted by all, and we may see the end of the cultural-economic wars.
5
Trish Regan’s owes Danes and her viewers an apology. She failed to mention that while taxes are in higher in Denmark, those with more pay more. Danes also benefit from universal healthcare, college, family leave, much more vacation and better services for the elderly. Things that most Americans would love to have for themselves.
Since proposing to my Danish wife some 27 years ago, I have been enamored by Denmark. Over the past quarter-century, much has changed but so very much is still the same. Back then, Chinese goods had yet to consume its markets and as such, electronics and appliances were very expensive. Back then, most every store closed on Saturday afternoon and didn’t reopen until Monday morning. Back then, the difference between one end of the middle-class and the other was nearly imperceptible. Today, stores are open on Sunday and appliances are more affordable. But you would still be hard pressed to figure out who ranked where on the middle-class scale, which is about 80% of the population.
And when it comes to environmental issues, Danes don’t think about recycling, they live recycling. Each community has a free recycling depot with dozens and dozens of stations to dump everything from gypsum to plastic bottles. When it comes to alternative energy, Denmark is approaching near completely renewable solutions mostly via large wind turbines. And when it comes to NATO and defense, Denmark has sent her fair share of young men into combat alongside American troops.
20
All America needs to be truly great again is to raise taxes on the top 1% (via higher rates and the elimination of $300 billion/year in tax breaks) and use that to fund college educations, trade school, and health insurance. We can also raise taxes on the top 6% of workers by removing the cap on the payroll tax (taxing income over $128,400), to fund about 70% of the Social Security shortfall for 75 years.
9
If small homogenous societies are the way to prosperity, why is it that our more diverse states like California and New York do so much better than, say Montana or South Dakota or Maine. And the natural resources of Scandinavia are not better than those states just mentioned.
7
@gratis states aren’t societies. They are part of a larger society
Why do people persist in thinking that things that work in small countries will work in the US? Denmark, for perspective, is about the size of Maryland and has about 30% less people than New York City. You cant run a multi-national corporation the same way you run a corner grocery store.
6
The core of the difference between USA versus the co-called socialist countries is the degree of "Self-Center-ness". It's about commonly accepted ideology.
Much of the bankruptcy of the Communist model can be attributed to the suppression of "Self-Motivation", supposedly the prime driver behind the success of the Capitalism model. There is some truth to that, as demonstrated by the emergence of China from the Maoist Communism model to a centrally managed ultra competitive capitalist model. China is only now trying to rebuild its weakened social safety net and share the wealth better.
Canada is the only nation that escaped the 2008 financial melt-down because of more stringent government control of the banking. It also adopted some of the socialist systems common in Northern Europe such as single-payer health system, one not oriented towards profit but for the well-being for all citizens. It is a much less selfish model.
There is more to learn from Denmark and the Scandinavians. The Norwegian Buddhist monk Brahmali described Norwegians as mostly atheist but also less self-centered. They believe in more sharing of wealth. That's probably true for Sweden too. Quite a contrast to USA's hyper-religiosity and Ayn Rand libertarian me-first demagoguery.
8
Americans are in a constant state of fear and stress, probably related to healthcare and the safety net.
This is quite apparent when visiting our neighbors to the north...just stepping off the plane, the sigh of calmness and sanity is palpable. Ask anyone who has traveled outside the US to any western democracy, this is the case.
40 years of corporatism has rendered Americans anxious, less secure and prone to an early death.
Reaganism has failed.
13
Citizens United was one of the worst scotus decisions in history. until it is overturned the megarich will continue to dictate US governmental policy at every level. until then, we will not have a government for the people, by the people or of the people.
14
I think it is important to point out that Denmark has a population of only 5.7 million people. By comparison, New York City alone has a population of 8.5 million. Furthermore, having visited Copenhagen this past year, I can personally attest to the rather obvious and striking lack of diversity in that city. In fact, only 13% of the population is "non Danish," and of that group, approximately 40% is of "Western" descent, and 60% is considered "non Western" the latter comprising approximately 450,000 inhabitants (the population of Staten Island). Finally, the personal income tax rate in Denmark is 60%, which I believe most Americans would not tolerate.
I am tired of pundits like Mr. Krugman, and politicians like Bernie Sanders, telling me how wonderful life is in the Nordic countries. Any comparison to the US is ludicrous. Facts do matter in the debate, not vague generalities.
2
@Common Sense 101
So it's an ethnic diversity problem that prevents a more equal society. Natch. And no the average personal tax rate in Denmark is not 60%. What other misinformation do you have to share?
5
Paul,
Fine column. One small criticism: the term "social-democratic". If you say socialist or socialism, there is no need to add "democratic". By definition, socialism means the PEOPLE own the means of production.
Venezuela is not a socialist nation. It is a nation where the means of production are owned by Nicholas Maduro. The old Soviet Union was not a socialist nation. It was one where the man at the top controlled all the resources, production and distribution of the nation's goods. I know you know this; I wish our friends on the right did. To them I say, if it helps you to remember, imagine giant letters made of Legos, spelling out THERE IS NO SOCIALISM WITHOUT DEMOCRACY.
3
This piece is a joke
The modern Democrats stand for Hillary and a program that promised nothing even remotely leftish and for Krugman who said this was perfect and that working class who voted against her were only deplorable, nativist, and racist--not suffering. It was Krugman who wrote against "vertical egalitarianism" and for "horizontal egalitarianism." (identity politics).
The modern Democrats stand for Obama whose economic policy was totally controlled by the Citigroup, the most corrupt bank from 2001 to 2008. His Secretary of the Treasury was head of the risky investment divisions of Citi and its undersecretary for foreign economics the head of Citigroup's foreign currency department.
The modern Democrats stand for massive immigration, legal and illegal, the very opposite of Denmark
2
Immigration is NOT our problem. Wealth inequality is.
4
You talk nothing about the high taxes required. What about those of us that labored to get tot the top and earn the spoils. This type of system is so very unfair... equality of outcome is unfairness. Period.
@Maximus: in the USA, it is impossible to "labor to get to the top and earn the spoils". Those at the top just keep getting more & more and paying less & less (taxes). So "we" the folks doing the laboring are not even near the top, will never get there. Those AT the top, consume more & more of everything. They SHOULD pay more (in taxes). A rising tide lifts all boats.
Here's what Mr.Krugman doesn't tell you. Denmark has 5 million people. 87% are native Danish. Only 13% are of immigrant origin and a substantial number of the immigrants are from elsewhere in Europe. Of those who are not white Europeans, most live in what the government terms "ghettos" -- 25 ghettos across the country. Whether by design or circumstance, Denmark looks something like the segregated South before the civil rights movement. Denmark is a great place for Caucasians and a lousy place for everyone else. It appears that Mr. Krugman has forgotten about everyone else.
2
@michjas that doesn't mean we can't do a better job. We're supposed to be the home of the free and the brave. Judging by who we elected to be president and who represents us in Congress and elsewhere we're really the home of the freely bigoted and submissive to the uber rich. The rich don't need tax breaks. And claiming that the poor are unworthy of assistance because they are poor and want to be poor is hypocritical considering how often the poor are penalized for it.
I've noticed that Denmark is also a great place to be middle class. America, not so much. But America is a great place to be a bigoted, racist white male. Being rich and in office helps. If you are a woman, African American, handicapped, over the age of 45 and unemployed, or anything but a white male with money, forget about it.
6
@michjas We can do better.
1
My wife works for a Danish company. Couldn't be happier with how they treat us.
2
What Mr. Krug fails to report is heavy burden of taxation that every Dane, not just the wealthy, bears. The problem with American-style socialism is nobody wants to tax the middle class. Thus socialism in America is just a euphemism for more free stuff for everyone except those the bureaucrats deem rich. What a joke.
@Newport Iggy
Actually he reported exactly that. The overall level of taxation is very high by comparison with the US. That was the entire point of his article but it has left most Danes better off and more happy. Do you have comprehension problems?
7
What you will never hear from Fox and other right wing media, is the amount of Socialism corporations and the 1% receive from the government. The recent tax cut that republicans passed, resulted in over 80% of those cuts going to the top of the food chain and added almost another Trillion dollars to the deficit. Throw in subsidies, deregulation, loopholes, bailouts and even keeping the minimum wage at $7.25, and you begin to get a picture of who the REAL welfare queens are.
4
Social democracy is definitely the way to go.
1
US socialistic horrors:
1. Electrical service.
2. Air traffic control.
3. Veterans healthcare.
4. Social Security.
5. Medicare.
6. Public safety.
7. Farm support.
8. National defense.
9. Interstate highway system.
10. Affordable health insurance.
9
Silly you Professor! If we rising tide lifts all boats, what will Trump and his Billionaire friends do? They might have to own a few less homes, cars and jets so the masses can have good health coverage. Heavens to Betsy!
2
I really don't know how you can compare Denmark in any way, shape, or form with a country that has fifty-seven times its population.
3
@dmansky
Try to compare with the EU then?
@dmansky: Really? Why not?
@Derseijl yes I think that would be more apt: both with the challenges of large, multicultural populations.
So the hallmarks of a civilized democratic society get labelled as "socialism". For once conservatives are right about something ...
2
Bill Clinton raised taxes on the rich 3% and we had continuous 4% GDP growth.
The founding fathers created the nation so that people who owned the most paid the most taxes. Property taxes were 90% of revenue and excise taxes were 10%. The USA became an economic giant under this system until the rich bamboozled Congress to impose the income tax on YOU in 1913.
Prior to 1913, people who worked and created wealth paid ZERO income taxes. If you controlled the land and all that it produced; minerals, wood, food, housing, air rights, factories...YOU paid the taxes.
So, if you owned 90% of a community's wealth-producing assets, you paid 90% of the taxes. Today, the rich own 90% of American wealth and pay 50% of the taxes. That's GRAND LARCENY and the average GOP voter is clueless on this simple math.
Every progressive AND CONSERVATIVE should back the "Single Tax"...Tax assets, NOT INCOME.
There would be NO ASSET bubbles like the Great Depression or Great Recession or Reagan's Savings And Loan bailouts the GOP perpetrated on the USA the last THREE times they held government for eight years or longer. THEY blow our taxes out of the water and have fools on social media blaming Democrats.
2
Cannot agree more. As an American living in Europe - yes - it's better here. But to 'sell' the idea of a leftward leaning government to commie-bashing right wingers, call us "social democrats" and not "democratic socialists". Subtle difference, but 'democrat' needs to be the noun if you're going to convince centrists and others to join the fold!
4
I don't think it is true that Denmark, over the past few decades, has veered to the left, as Krugman writes. What has happened in Denmark, I think, is that the political center of gravity has in fact veered to the right -- as has happened with virtually all of the countries in Northern Europe. I could point to several political measures taken in Denmark over the last decade or so which makes life tougher for people on the fringes of society. Also on purely value based politics has there been a marked shift to the right: Stiffer penalties for crimes, a pretty condescending rhetoric against Muslim immigrants and here just a few weeks ago, a ban on covering your face in public, a ban which includes anything from fake beards from a prop store to the burqa. Alas, in many respects things are going in the wrong direction in Denmark -- i.e. if you cherish tolerance and personal freedom and equality. And most of it stems from political parties all across the spectrum, sucking up to the terrible, terrible "Danish People's Party", a party which tragically enough is the new kingmaker in Danish politics.
1
Political socialism provides the legislative means to re-distribute the nation's wealth rather than relying on the scraps that accidentally fall off the table to the weak, poor, sick and the dis-enfranchised.
5
No mention of diversity. Why? Because Denmark is a small (population about the size of Wisconsin), homogenous Country (90+% White; 75% Lutheran). So to compare it to America is silly.
However, many White liberals use it to "prove" that their way- here socialism, is better than our American system. You also see this in education when, again, White liberals use another Nordic country, Finland, as an example of what American should aspire to.
However, in the past few years as Denmark has seen a rise in immigration, more stories have been written about how uneasy their system is at integrating new, "browner" folks.
So forgive this Black American if I don't share the enthusiasm for seeing the benefits of a Country that lacks any real diversity.
5
@profwilliams
Could you please explain what "diversity" has to do with "social security/health insurance", how this issue matters when it comes to "horrors/benefits of socialism or social democracy", why Prof Krugman should not compare countries strictly under the aspect "Health insurance available/not available"? and why he should not be allowed to assess results as "good" or "bad" in THIS regard?
The agenda of this discussion here is clear and non-discriminating. Referring to all these criterions mentioned above the "diversity" aspect is absolutely irrelevant. Your point might be also interesting also but not here and now. Here the focus is on "health care" so it´s an unrelated connection that is leading to distraction and curbing of an important discourse.
As an academic ("prof") you should know the tecnical rules of a objective discussion. We try our best not to give up these rules to avoid erosion of abilities of issue-related (scientific) discourses. It helps to engage in topic orientated -and target orientated - discussions and to reach correct conclusions.
This approach might be another difference between European and contemporary US practises but many Europeans of my generation still think this is necessary and useful to achieve objective review leading to sensible results so we will stick to this.
It has nothing to do with "Black", "Brown" or "White" but with "Right" or "Wrong" - the only way to communicate properly.
1
@ws it’s telling that you don’t understand how diversity matters when comparing populations. Must be nice to NEVER have to think about how being outside the dominant culture feels. But when you are part of the minority- as many in diverse populations are- seeing a comparison with a Country where 12% of the population are, say, descendants of slaves (or immigrants) to a homogeneous- White- population where most folks have lived for generations, gives pause. Do you get it now? Or do you a further history lesson about why diversity matters whenever comparing Countries?
@profwilliams
"it’s telling that you don’t understand how diversity matters when comparing populations."
The issue of this article is not comparing populations. It´s exclusively comparing social security systems (health care) and political systems (communism, socialism, social democracy, enlighted conservatism) of several EU countries. Nothing else.
The issue "comparing populations" was brought up by you - trying to steer the discussion to this topic. But again: This is comparing health care systems and political systems, nothing else. In this regard it doesn´t matter if anybody is a member of minorities, former slave or what else - descendants of former "Nazis" or "communists" for example. This is absolutely irrelevant in this discourse and so diversity is. I don´t need any history lessons about this now because it has no impact on any result of this comparison of systems.
If you want to discuss diversity when it comes to social security and health care I give you a hint now: Try Cuba.
Many descendants of former slaves have built up an well working but expensive system almost overnight. Then diversity is an issue - a big one in fact and then some history lessons about this are helpful indeed. But not when the discussion is about Denmark - and this here is about Denmark.
BTW: Forget your "too small" argument as soon as possible. There are more than 83 millions in Germany but our social security systems are working well. A complete rebuttal of any "size" argument.
It's the same old Republican con game. Use fear of [fill in the blank] immigrants, socialism (and before that Communists then liberals), minorities (remember Reagan's "welfare queens" and George H. W. Bush's Willie Horton ad) or China to get people to support the 1 percent who'll then rip them off with tax cuts for themselves while feeding others conservative judges, anti-abortion policies and a few other low cost items. This has been going on more or less since William McKinley and left us with The Great Depression and The Great Recession, but the voters keep on buying the snake oil or Kool-Aid. Let's hope they wake up this November. If this continues, maybe Denmark will take this geriatric immigrant.
3
The Danes can do this because they see each others as Danes.
We are Everyman for him or her self.
2
Give me a break. It's Fox News. They lie. They had to choose a small country to lie about, a country their viewers know nothing about. Now all the American liberals write long articles about how great Denmark is (it is great, mostly), but Fox News viewers don't read those articles, and if you ask them, they are absolutely convinced that people die in the streets in Denmark because of that "socialism". In short: The rightwing media isn't talking to you. They are talking among themselves in a giant, perpetual self-affirming feedback loop, completely disconnected from reality. They aren't having "a conversation". They're propaganda. And while this article makes a valid point about Democratic politics it also makes the mistake of thinking there was an argument somewhere in the Fox News lies.
5
Bernie Sanders was saying all of this years ago. It’s too bad you could not have supported him Mr. Krugman.
3
@Hddvt
It's too bad you don't know the meaning of the word context. But then oversimplifications are standard Sanders fare.
1
@John
Dr. K. gave it his best shot. Some of anybody's miss. He takes a lot of shots.
Social Democracy is Socialism. It is the streamm of Socialist thought realized that the "final crisis of capitalism" was not at hand and that what needed to be done was ameliorate the excesses of the capitalist system and perhaps lead a peaceful transition to a less exploitive system. Jean Jaures one of the founders of the "Parti Socialist" in France described Socialism as the application of democracy to the economic sphere. One of the leading light of the German Social Democrats was Eduard Bernstein, Marx's son in law. The problem in the US is that we have been bombarded for years with propaganda that equates Socialism with the USSR and it's style of governance and ignoring the fights with in the Socialist camp that led to the split between the Social Democrats and the Communists in the immediately period before and after the Russian Revolution.
1
Ah, those small cobbled squares in Copenhagen; jazz band, and Tuborg Grøn for the summer thirst. Nothing socialist about Denmark. Mild social democracy, with Gammal Dansk etc.
3
The following is from the 7/1/18 NYT article
"In Denmark, Harsh New Laws for Immigrant ‘Ghettos’"
"Denmark’s government is introducing a new set of laws to regulate life in 25 low-income and heavily Muslim enclaves, saying that if families there do not willingly merge into the country’s mainstream, they should be compelled.
For decades, integrating immigrants has posed a thorny challenge to the Danish model, intended to serve a small, homogeneous population. Leaders are focusing their ire on urban neighborhoods where immigrants ... live in dense concentrations with high rates of unemployment and gang violence.
Starting at the age of 1, “ghetto children” must be separated from their families for at least 25 hours a week, not including nap time, for mandatory instruction in “Danish values,” including the traditions of Christmas and Easter, and Danish language. Noncompliance could result in a stoppage of welfare payments."
Is Krugman suggesting we follow Denmark's lead?
5
But it is, a bit. Denmark is actually a bit extreme in certain egalitarian and anti-meriticratic attitudes, at least the island part of Denmark is. If you had spent any significant ammount of time in a Danish university you'd likely now sound significantly more like Jordan Peterson. Finland or Sweden would be the saner, better examples.
Pure socialist values make 99% of people happy and productive. Are you, Paul, of the 99%, in all aspects of your life and work? Does society (any society) need you as you are?
Remember that nuance is most often lost on the 99%.
I immigrated to Sweden from the US seven years ago.
There’s no comparison. I had 8 weeks paid vacation this year. And will begin my masters in a few weeks—free. Doctor’s visits, including specialists and psychological healthcare, cost $20 per visit. After five visits within a calender year all healthcare is free.
I would gladly go on about the myriad ways Scandinavia is superior in every way to the US but I know it will fall on deaf American years. My favourite ’argument’ I constantly hear from Americans: The Scandinavian model only works because Scandinavia is ’small’ and ’homogenous’ IE white. Regarding the former, there are only 7 US states with a population larger than Sweden’s. And while I reject the entire premise of the inherently racist argument that Social Democracy only works in ’homogenous’ societies, I would like to point out the inherent falseness of it as well. 20% of the Swedish population is not Swedish, that number is substantially higher in large cities (40% in Stockholm, for example.) 25% of the population come from families with at least 1 parent who is not Swedish.
The immigrants of Sweden also come the world’s poorest and most severely war-torn countries (Eritrea, Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria).
And guess what, the system still works. Please retire your racist arguments about racial purity being the key to sucess for a Social Democratic society.
10
@Ronald: Thank you! I LOVE your well-written, truthful & factual comment. I especially like that you included the facts regarding 'small' & 'homogenous' societies (including the important mention of the US states' populations).
On the other hand, I retired (along with my husband) a year ago. In retirement, I have returned to college to attain my BA (which was curtailed in my 20s when I was single & suddenly hospitalized with a life-threatening condition, no health insurance, working 3 part-time jobs simultaneously, paying rent & car, & left with a 5-figure hospital bill). Now, I do get the senior discount on tuition...so that is something.
What a sad, immensely sad country the U.S. of A. has become.
4
Whatever form of government a country might have Republicans always make it worse for the majority of the people.
Regarding health care: In 2012 Mitt Romney declared that Obama got his ideas from socialist democrats in Europe. Excuse me, but Obama's healthcare plan was right out of Romney's playbook. The same Heritage Society's healthcare plan instituted in Mass. by Romney. In fact Obama care should be called Romney care. No wonder the Democrats lost the Congress in 2010, as they were no different than the Republicans.
3
In some respect, the next couple of elections will be a choice between Danish style government/ economy and Russian style government/ economy.
6
@JMM
Brilliant. And accurate. Thank you.
Enron consultant Krugman, weren’t you the one denouncing Bernie for these ideas in 2016?
Also, don't forget the Danes are really, really good looking!
1
To me as a European this sounds much like frightening propaganda and shows me that US democracy has been seriously deteriorating and not just since Trump. Only the liberal educated areas like California, NYC and others are now the real America. People sit in their (very American) trailer parks watching TV thinking Denmark is a socialist country. When they (would? could?) travel to Dennark you would be surprised how clean, neat, perfectly organized everything is and how well-educated, friendly and in balance the Danes tend to be. It is shocking that some privatized US news media have grown politically biased and make up complete stories now with the real aim to manipulate Republican voters to follow Republican ideals that leave America with a decreasing life expectancy and everything involved. Fake News is an invented term by those that manipulate: the free press is never fake, never!
5
The bigger question is why so many Americans choose a life that's "nasty, brutish, and short" when the US has the means to do so much more for it's citizens. We have somehow perverted the shibboleths of American independence and exceptionalism to mean we must be bullies and blowhards. Independence doesn't mean you're working hard to build up yourself and your community, it means ripping the other guy off to get his stuff and then dominating him so he won't try to take your stuff. In the past we told ourselves we were above that kind of thing, then we elected Trump and we're now pretty much codifying it daily.
4
@M: Excellent comment..."come on up to the house" :)
I concede that economics is a hard science.
Let's call it what it is: democratic capitalism.
1
Paul makes the suggestion that “socialism” be distinguished from “socialist democracy”. The latter amounts to the obvious observation that the major problems facing the Country aren’t going to be solved without government involvement: a fact the GOP Congress will not accept. Things like infrastructure, affordable housing, opioid addiction, real education, child & elder care - and on, and on.
Why government actions that “float all boats” should be labeled socialist instead of practical common sense beats me.
2
Socialism is prone to corruption. The only way it works is when people all participate and produce. America has too many corrupt liberals that would take advantage of their power and we have too many non producers. Its simple math.
2
As opposed to capitalism, which as practiced in the U.S, essentially says "all corruption is legal!"
Your clarity is always a welcome intrusion into the murky polemic of contemporary, or historical, political science, but ... The difference in Denmark is not only where they lie on the left- right axis, the theory we get shoved down our throats constantly by the media, but on the independently aligned libertarian - totalitarian axis. It is a mistake to equate Socialism with a command economy; that's Marxism, and it never really happened in reality. Democrats need to wake up to this; the voters they are losing identify with freedom, economic, social, and otherwise. The false Republican claim of being the free market stalwarts needs to be exposed. Please write about this.
5
So lemme get this straight. When Mitt Romney took a program created by a conservative think tank and turned it into RomneyCare in Massachusetts, that was fine. But when Obama tried the same thing on a national scale, it was concocted by “socialist democrats in Europe”. Oh, the horror.
Both of our home-grown systems of “socialized medicine” — Medicare and the VA health system — consistently receive higher ratings for cinical outcomes and patient satisfaction than their private-sector equivalents. And, by the way, cost less.
4
Denmark functions very well. It is the size of Mass & CT ( 16,000 sq. miles. ) 6 million people.
All people are educated , industry is at the highest level , violent crime is very rare, racial conflict is very rare, unemployment is very low.
Their highways. bridges , rail systems, electric power grids, water systems are all modern and well maintained.
There is very little to compare between Denmark and USA . They have had centuries to develope and have not been depleated by adventurous war policies for several centuries.
The US is still developing, we are working on education for everyone, we have plans for modern infrastructure but are decades away from completion , we have large ethnic problems to solve, we have exploding debt from world wide military assets.
There is little similarity between Denmark and USA.
3
Here's the real issue: election integrity. Americans aren't really as stupid as its riggers think, but until the USA adopts popular election of its chief executive with rigid defense against cyber attack, it will never emulate Denmark.
4
@Daver Dad
And publicly funded campaigns.
2
Do the Americans know anything about the socialism except what was frantically brainwashed into them during the Cold War?
I grew up in a socialist country, in ex-Yugoslavia. I am just talking about the things I witnessed firsthand.
It taught us not to idolize anybody – no celebrity, no politicians, no religion, no nation. Put always the interests of the entire society at the pedestal, not the personal ones. Or, just translate it as putting the team spirit at the very top. For some reason I believed that’s the same credo embraced by the US Army…
The socialism is not about a personal property. It as about trying to do your personal best to be able to contribute to the society you live in the most.
That’s why I had no difficulties to adapt to the living in America. You see the best in the people around you. Try to understand them and find the common language. All of us want the same – peace, stability, family, friends, jobs, security, justice and fairness.
Those categories and not political but universal.
Democracy is not the goal but just a tool to have the justice. Those equating the corrupted politicians trying to divide and polarize a country in order to stay personally in power understand neither democracy nor faith nor the socialism.
None of them allows you to hate your neighbors for the sake of any political party…
By the way, Yugoslavia wasn’t held together by Tito but by the socialism. Replacing the socialism ideologically with the nationalism destroyed it…
2
Every other advanced country has universal health care. Really? False!
1
How much of an effect comes from Denmark having a more homogeneous population?
2
Danes, according to international polls, are the happiest people in the world. Trump has made us Americans the unhappiest people in the world. This can only be corrected in November. But that will require millions of eligible voters to get off their butts and vote like never before.
2
@Christy: Not exactly factual. Sometimes it is the Swedes. Sometime the Norwegians. Sometimes the Finns. But that actually supports the argument rather than dilutes it.
The 9/6//16 NYT article “I’ve Become a Racist” said the following on immigration in Denmark:
"Perhaps the leading — and most substantive — concern is that the migrants are an economic drain. In 2014, 48 percent of immigrants from non-Western countries ages 16 to 64 were employed, compared with 74 percent of native Danes.
The Immigration Ministry has sought to avoid what it calls “parallel societies” of migrants living in “vicious circles of bad image, social problems and a high rate of unemployment.” Tightened immigration requirements, the ministry said in its latest annual report, weed out those “who have weaker capabilities for being able to integrate into Danish society.”'
Krugman, should the U.S. accept only those immigrants who could easily integrate into American society? How else could we support "socialist democracy"?
"But U.S. conservatives — like Fox’s Regan — continually and systematically blur the distinction between social democracy and socialism."
They do NOT blur the distinction. The outright LIE with the panache of the true Trumpian acolytes.
3
In some alternative universe, Paul Krugman is president -- or at least Economic Policy Czar -- and America is a much, much happier place.
3
Cute title, hearkening back to before Dr. Krugman started peddling the insipid "buthowugunnapayforit?" canard in the concerted effort to sink the best chance America has seen for social democracy since at least the Great Depression.
As in the example in this commentary, Fox News is misinformation. The role of the media is to inform.
The Trump administration thrives and is supported by misinformation and the uninformed.
The cabinet is either uninformed or uses misinformation for its selfish benefit. Global warming or climate change is a fact. in education science is a fact. Our public parks are being eroded by ignorance. We need the media to educate!
Another difference between Denmark and us is that we have lots of really wealthy people and big corporations who have bought control of our agenda and our lawmakers. Denmark is fortunate not to have them.
1
@Ker Denmark has a very high participation in elections, upwards of 80%. People vote for their own interests and corporations cannot control that large a percentage of the vote. Also, since Danish companies are run by Danes, many believe the role of a business is to help society, not hollow it out for their own profit.
1
@Ker
Danmark: Møller-Mærsk Group and more
Sweden : IKEA; H&M and more
Netherlands: Royal Dutch; Unilever and more
Big corporations exist in these countries by the acceptance of the welfare state and the flourish by that.
A lot of the American ethos deriding "Socialism" stems from the Calvinist predilections of many of our founders and the institutions they set up, in which one shows one is worthy of God's favor by being able to accumulate riches and resources in this life. Of course, that means those who do not do so are unworthy of God's favor and are not be be the recipients of charity or social programs, because their lack of wealth is part of their unworthiness, an trait for which they are solely responsible, and not due to any outside, systemic, societal factors.
One can see how this leads to the libertarian/Social Darwinist "if you're so smart why aren't you rich" mentality of our oligarchs and their toadies, even if they have forgotten the religious underpinnings.
The Scandinavian countries had their share of Calvinists, but they were never dominant, and they kept running up against the more communitarian impulses of their neighbors who pointed out it does take a village pulling together to ensure the survival of individuals in a harsh landscape. So Social Democracy could develop and flourish.
We in America instead elevated the mythos of the plucky individual and the lone cowboy. My Scandinavian friends find those characters quaint.
3
The Scandinavian model has mainly arisen from tightly knit farming communities, where someone becoming too wealthy was frown upon.
If you look at regional differences within US, the support for a Scandinavian model is higher in the northeast where the societies predates industrialism, whereas the later populated areas out west lack that support.
A simple google search shows that personal income tax rate for income over $55,000. Is 60.2%.
Not sure Americans are willing to pay that rate, knowing that Democrats want ALL be covered under single payer healthcare, including illegals.
Americans and their politicians have this strange and extreme fear of using our tax dollars to create a social safety net that works for everyone. We view poor people with unwarranted suspicion when it comes to giving them money, providing them with decent housing, access to medical care, food stamps, or anything. That has translated into poor social policies for all Americans. Even rich people can lose all their money especially if they make bad decisions, wind up requiring extensive medical care, or don't have enough to survive an economic depression.
We are forcing people to sacrifice their health to pay the rent, to pay the utilities, to pay for food. Or the sacrifice is ambition, education, a decent life, happiness. Some of these are intangible but, as most of us know from experience, those intangibles are made possible by having enough money to feel in control of one's life. If we are unable to find a job, to have a job that pays enough to keep body and soul together, to obtain medical care when we need it, to feed ourselves, in short to be part of life rather than watching life, it's discouraging. And yet, this country pursues policies that discourage people.
In our rush to condemn socialism we don't look at what parts of it work. In our blind support of capitalism we refuse to acknowledge what is hurting us. Alienating people in their own country is not a wise policy. Nor is discarding them and we do both in America when we ignore what socialism can do.
4
What is missing in your analysis is defense spending. The Scandinavian countries look great because the US protects them.
2
It’s not too likely that the Scandinavian are going to buy superpower toys like nuclear subs and aircraft carriers. An older model nuclear model sub would cost Denmark 10 billion Danish Kroner. Most of the Baltic and Scandinavian countries have been increasing the defense funding because of Russian aggression in Ukraine, etc. Estonia is particularly concerned and expansive for its size. Mr. Trump has complicated NATO greatly by fawning over Putin and Russia as his BFF and dissing our European allies. Hey, we don’t drill in a America for a Russian invasion, but lots able-bodied Estonians do. They’ve experienced invading Russians and Germans.
1
Most of the American military budget isn't spent "protecting" anyone, including America. It's spent on idiotic wars of choice against non-threats like Iraq and Vietnam, propping up third world regimes that're afraid of being overthrown by their own people, and a welfare/jobs/infrastructure program for the many Americans who think if it's the military it's not socialism.
We need a new word to describe Scandinavian/ Euro/Canadian style Social democracy, one that does not include the word Social or Socialism. The right will always make the rhetorical leap to socialism ala Soviet Socialist Republics or communism. I propose Communitarianism, emphasizing community along with individualism, but I am open to suggestions.
2
It seems to me that there are two paradigms to this discussion. The one Mr. Krugman discuses is the basic, but complicated philosophical conflict between those that own the means of production and those that work for those owners and the struggle over the fairness in the distribution of the fruits of labor. One owner has an advantage over 100 separate workers in wage negotiation. He can fire one, and keep 99. Unions may give voice to the whole work unit.
The other paradigm is that there is differences in talent. More talented or more effort should get more and those who do less should get less, but how much more or less?
Who should decide? the marketplace,?the government? The prevailing culture?
Our current situation is that the owners now own the government, the president, congress and the supreme court. So fairness needs to be questioned.
Who gets to question? NYTimes, or FOX? or Twitter.
1
If Americans understood that the alternative of paying higher taxes includes NOT having to pay for college educations for their children, NOT having to pay enormous premiums then enormous bills for things not covered in their health care insurance, NOT having to pay most of one partner's salary to cover daycare for the children or elderly.....they would be saying SIGN ME UP. We pay more for all of the above and our taxes than most citizens do in Europe.....and they do not worry that their health care will lapse if they change jobs or locations, they do not worry constantly about the next unexpected $400 dollar bill coming thru the door of our already tightly stretched incomes or our tenuous jobs that may disappear tomorrow with government saying, "Hey that's unfettered capitalism, your problem, not ours."
6
health care, child care, job security, pensions guaranteed by the government and not by the typical short lived company, decent affordable housing - these are the marks of the "socialist"" economies of most of Europe - especially Scandinavia. Somewhat higher wages in the US do not begin to make up for the costs in the US of any of those things, let along ALL of them. "Health care" alone (which includes jobs for a few million paper pushers and claim displacers in the insurance industry and which interferes with decent medical care as providers have to spend almost as much of their time documenting their every thought, utterance, and potential diagnoses in a vaguely and inconsistently defined InsuranceSpeak) more than covers the difference in salaries. The US pays considerably more than the next most expensive country for far from the greatest health outcomes. Of course, the free market will fix that problem in the long run. As Keynes noted, in the long run we'll all be dead.
2
I grew up in Sweden and nothing annoys me more when americans call Scandinavian countries socialist. This is not only coming from the republicans trying to disparage the scandinavian model, but also progressives trying to promote it.
If Bernie Sanders wants to promote a scandinavian welfare system, he should stop calling himself Democratic Socialist and become a Socialdemocrat. There's an enormous difference.
In fact both Sweden and Denmark ranks higher than US on Economic Freedom. https://www.heritage.org/index/ranking
8
@San
It's mostly a language problem. "Socialdemocrat" is not a word in english (we don't assemble nouns modularly, like legos, as in Denmark), "social democrat" is just an extroverted party member, say, John Podesta, and "social-democrat", the correct term, requires a hyphen and is therefore weird and anything but 'working class'.
The main items in the Fox/GOP/Trump agenda are: (1) make sure that those "welfare queens" in Baltimore starve, (2) freedome to carry guns while shopping is very important, (3) no government body should be able to force anyone to have health care, since the ERs are "free", and (4) the Trump Tax Cuts are marvelous, even if only the 0.01% profit from this.
5
One size fits all? Nonsense. Can we learn from other countries?
That depends. I think we’ve done pretty well here in the USA, and remember, we’re really the new kid on the block. Our Democracy is the driver that sets us apart from the rest of the world. How do we keep it? We, as citizens keep our eyes on the real goal and work to preserve those ideals when we go to the polls.
1
What utter ignorance - or is it feigning of ignorance? - that the Fox channel hosts utter day in and day out! Anyone questioning the wisdom of social benefits should be asked point blank: How would you feel if there won't be any Social Security or Medicare (let alone Medicare) for you? Think of the uproar it would create among rank and file Americans, poor and rich included.
According to a recent Nationwide Retirement Survey, more than half of current or soon-to-be retirees cite Social Security as their primary source of income, and a sizable percent of Americans would rely on social security as their only source of retirement income.
Why is so much phobia about socialism when we ourselves have been the beneficiaries of social programs ever since FDR signed the Social Security Act in 1935 and Lyndon Johnson the Medicare Act thirty years later? In fairness to the Fox hosts, they have simply been capitalizing on our ill-perceived notion of socialism.
In the future, the starting point of any argument with so-called experts or TV hosts about socialism should be: How would you feel if there won't be any social security or medicare for yourself or your family members?
2
Denmark has a lot going for it, but it's silly to compare with the U.S. An obvious advantage they have is that they a homogenuous and very competitive culture. Milton Friedman once noted that there was no poverty among Swedish Americans. I have seen data that Danish Americans are much more prosperous than the average American, and by extension much more prosperous than the average Dane. Also, they have a horrible health care system, which makes for frequent fodder in the tabloid press. Weirdly, they have a voucherized public school system, and no that has not ruined public education, but they cling to their socialized medical system, where from an American perspective the access to care is scandalous. Just try to get an MRI. Also, the cost of living is insane. In the south, if you shop in Germany, you can easily save 30 or 40 percent. And as the editor of the Berlingske Tidende noted, in defending Regan, there is like a 180 percent VAT on cars. Lastly, economic growth as of late has been extremely weak, though why they should be lagging more than others remains unclear. In short, Denmark has a lot going for it, but is no utopia, and I didn't even get into the xenophobia.
3
The Danes and the Germans are not just democratic socialists, they have a totally different expectation of what is government. For example, while they do spend a huge amount of GDP on government they do not do this for the purposes of either income equality or creating jobs. Instead they expect government to provide all manner of services in an efficient cost effective manner without any waste, fraud or abuse. They disdain the waste and inefficiency of government bloat and bureaucracy. They expect all government workers on the taxpayer payroll to be necessary, and require them to be excellent at their jobs. In Denmark and Germany government workers can be fired or laid off for not doing a good job, or being nonessential. They do not just throw money at the government. They expect to get great value for what they are spending in taxes. America is not Denmark or Germany.
1
The punditocracy (also called the Very Serious People) who rule media commentary are extremely consistent.
They repeat right-wing shibboleths (without bothering to note that reality in no way matches them) and remain entirely ignorant of everything Progressives and Democrats say and believe.
2
Here is a novel idea. Why don't we revive the "melting pot" idea of old? From about 1890 to 1920 million of immigrants came here and in a generation, the majority became Americans, on a certain level, we were homogeneous, from many we became one; a huge middle class developed and we prospered.
We have been atomized by a selfish few to think of only ourselves, not as part of great experiment that seemed to have been working once.
Starting with Ronny the Dimwit, a traumatized America developed where life became increasingly brutal by runaway capitalism. Gradually, the GOP fueled the flame of decisiveness to cater to their handlers, the oligarchs, who wanted a serf class.
If Americans can unite and love the experiment the cream of the Enlightenment gave us, we can be "homogeneous" like Denmark.
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1) Stock talking point: "Denmark is a small country. Like Vermont. We can't do it because we're big, not small like them".
Really? Isn't bigger supposed to be better? Why else would anyone supersize? It's the American way. If we have more people, resources, and a currency that runs the world, why would that be a hindrance--a problem? That's the strangest (and most un-American) thing I've ever heard. Since we're bigger (and of course, better), wouldn't social democracy work even better here than in Denmark?
Next...
We're a bunch of suckers. We pay (at say 50K) roughly the same taxes as the Danes. They get:
health care
free college ed.
heavily subsidized child care
parental leave (both)
pension at age 60
a commitment to a carbon-free, cleaner environment
We get...none of the above...
What we Do get..
CEO compensation 300X average worker
CEO pays similar or lower tax rate
Buffett pointed out years ago that his secretary paid a higher marginal rate than he did. Are he and I the only ones who see a problem there?
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1) Stock talking point: "Denmark is a small country. Like Vermont. We can't do it because we're big, not small like them".
Really? Isn't bigger supposed to be better? Why else would anyone supersize? It's the American way. If we have more people, resources, and a currency that runs the world, why would that be a hindrance--a problem? That's the strangest (and most un-American) thing I've ever heard. Since we're bigger (and of course, better), wouldn't social democracy work even better here than in Denmark?
Next...
We're a bunch of suckers. We pay (at say 50K) roughly the same taxes as the Danes. They get:
health care
free college ed.
heavily subsidized child care
parental leave (both)
pension at age 60
a commitment to a carbon-free, cleaner environment
We get...none of the above...
What we Do get..
CEO compensation 300X average worker
CEO pays similar or lower tax rate
Buffett pointed out years ago that his secretary paid a higher marginal rate than he did. Are he and I the only ones who see a problem there?
11
Thank you for this article. Over time, perhaps Americans can learn from the successes of other nations. I know, I know, we are exceptional. But still...
Denmark has a lot figured out.
The former ambassador to Denmark is running for Congress in MA. I was leaning towards Rufus Gifford. This might seal the deal for me. He could be a conduit of good ideas.
That would be really "exceptional".
When you live in Denmark -
- and I truly recommend it to anyone envying that country -
- you pay a solid 25% of your income in sales taxes and VATs.
You also pay a minimum of 40% of your income to the national government no matter how poor you are, and in you have created jobs and a business profit, the income tax is higher.
Remember, THIS is while Denmark spends a pittance on its own national defense.
That means that the working class parents hesitate to even have kids. If that level of desperation is what you crave, PLEASE go live somewhere else.
And, yes, the elites there still come to the U.S. to get serious medical issues dealt with. Being the country that invents everything still means something in faraway places.
Stil wanting to HateAmerica? You've come to the right website.
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@L'osservatore
All that defense spending done us much good?
@L'osservatore: Your comment is not truthful at all. I guess you must also "HateAmerica"...you are always posting at this website. Nauseatingly, so.
Denmark isn't a socialist Utopian fantasy. It's a tiny homogeneous country. We have 54 times the population & an infinitely more complex society. Denmark has never had to deal with massive immigration issues or the persistent poverty we have in the US. Their system simply can't be duplicated here. That point can't be emphasized enough. Why? Look at the tax structure. In addition to high income taxes Denmark has a Value-added tax (VAT), that's a whopping 25% on near everything people buy. New cars are taxed at 180%. That means a Honda cost around $60,000! Gasoline is $7.00 a gallon. Now, if you want to start arguing that there really ought to be a Federal sales tax of 25% then OK, I'm willing to listen. But the American electorate isn't & they're the people you would have to convince. Truthfully you would have have to be on acid to think that you could even persuade liberal Democrats to go for this. If you dig a little deeper Denmark really isn't what American democratic socialists seem to think it is. It's much more decentralized, less regulated, economically more free, anathema to US progressives. And it doesn't pay for everything by taxing the rich: because the rich just don't have enough money to pay for everything. It taxes everyone to provide things for everyone. Because that is the only way that you can pay for it all. And those taxes are roughly twice what is currently paid in the US. Americans will never vote to double their taxes no matter what you promise them.
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@Bill Brown If you're correct, and you may be, we then deserve the lousy future we will get.
@Victoria Bitter We can still make vast changes in out society without doubling taxes. Denmark isn't a good model for America.
Socialism works great! Just ask any pro sports team owner, any banker, any real estate developer, any farmer, any pharma executive*, any leader in any business receiving massive government subsidies.
The right's only problem with socialism is when it's extended to the bottom 99%.
* See: Bayh-Dole Act.
4
Friends and extended family in Belgium and Spain report similar stories about life there. Lived in Germany when I was a boy and do not recall seeing beggars in the intersections as we have here in the US. Do not recall huge homeless groups as we have here.
The worst of all the ism's is 'Unfettered Capitalism'. Denmark and other EU countries have achieved a healthy balance between UC and pure socialism.
@FunkyIrishman: "I can tell you that most people in the United States (and even to a lesser extent Canada) have no clue as to what Socialism actually is or means. I can boil it down to one common thing - no one is left behind."
1
Anyone who found this column interesting should watch Michael Moore's last film, Where To Invade Next. It addresses these issues in a really entertaining and eye-opening way. I don't understand why it didn't receive more publicity because I thought it was his best and most important film.
2
"Denmark doesn’t at all fit the classic definition of socialism, which involves government ownership of the means of production."
"Involves" is a weasel word.
And this "classic definition" is logically incomplete--not a well formed formula--due to missing quantifiers.
Government ownership of ALL means of production? Or just SOME? If some, the USA is and always has been "socialist" because it has ALWAYS been a "mixed" economy--some private some public ownership.
If ALL, then who has ever been "socialist"? --because what does NOT count as a "means of production" All public infrastructure and services certainly do.
But even your privately owned car which gets to to work is a "means of production" as is your breakfast, and your night's sleep.
Did PK enjoy Denmark too much?
1
I’m sure like in Denmarkand other Scandinavian countries is far better than here. Why would it not be, when you know that of you get sick, you won’t go bankrupt or you don’t have to worry about eating cat food in you Olaf age. Plus there’s free day care and college education. Thanks for explaining how’s positive these things are Mr Krugman. That’s quite a change from your columns during the primary season when in your columns you continuously cricized Senator Sanders and his supporters as believing in unicorns and as cultists, for even believing that we should aspire to universal healthcare. Perhaps if you had beena bit less denigrating of Sanders or at least his ideas, we’d be closer to this ideal than heading backwards. I think you owe Sanders at least an acknowledgement that you were wrong.
3
Names have the meanings we give to them ... at a certain point they lose their original meaning, through abuse and misuse. How about changing the term socialism to humanitarianism or let's-create-a-society-we'd-all-like-to-live-in-that-functions-reasonably-well-ism. Maybe we should just drop the "isms".
There are few, if any, "conservatives" in government anymore. We're left with crazed ideologues and delusional "libertarians", who if their wishes actually came to fruition, would hate what they thought they longed for.
Some people draw a line in the sand and say, 'this side is mine". Many of us harbor this same illusion.
2
"It can't work here because....." We're bigger. We're more racially and culturally diverse. We have to spend so much on military defense of the whole world. No, none of that. It's because the majority of us are too stupid to know what's good for us or too scared of losing our jobs if we demand a fair share of the employer's profits for our labor.
6
Alas, why so ebullient about social democracy now and not when Bernie was running?
4
Because he doesn't really have a choice.
What is a government for if not to work for the people? ALL of the people not just a rich slice of plutocrats that control everything.
4
@mj. The goal of our Constitution is to work for all the people. It says so in the Preamble. Such irony.
Socialism is an ideology, while social is something measurable, like the GINI-coefficient. Let's say, a country with a GINI below 35 is social, than denmark is social (25%), sweden is social (25%), Germany (27%), Swiss (28%), France (30%) are social.
The USA was social by this measurement until 1981, and i think this was the time when the US was at it's best.
But in contrast, Russia (42%) is not social, neither is China (42%), Mexico (48%) is not social, and actually so is the US today (47%).
America once was like denmark, and that had been the time when america indeed was great. But today it is more like russia, and no matter what you call your ideology, misery has a unique scale.
1
Gosh, I hate to break all of you "patriotic" Americans the bad news, but Europe and Europeans enjoy a far higher standard of living than most Americans. Yes, indeed, those at the top of the American pyramid are enjoying great lives, but average working-class Americans work longer hours at lower pay, rarely take time away from work, can't manage to get family leave for children or other loved-ones and millions are afraid to see a doctor for fear of being scammed by the racket known as the "health care" industry.
I think more of you should spend time outside the borders of the U.S. and educate yourselves. Things aren't as great in the U.S. as you all think it is.
3
I'm an American citizen living in Austria. I've never been to Denmark but I'd like to chime in. Just where do I begin?
I'm living here with my family, my children where born here and have dual citizenship and we've been here nearly 30 years.
Since I had them late in life it was considered a risk pregnacy because of age. I left my job and was paid full for 9 months. I stayed home (oh my God! I actually could raise my own kids!) for two years apiece being covered by Mother/Child Care which included visits to the doctor every 4 weeks for 5 years to check their developmental progress. Naturally we are all covered by health care lifelong. I actually know all my doctors and they know me and they spend time with me knowing me and my concerns. They listen! I just got a pension here and am now covered in my own name. My children are in university and that's covered. My children who are still receiving money monthly for their expenses for university until age 26. We have a country full of gun owners who must go through extensive exams (at least 3 months) before ownership. Hardly a shot to be fired into another human being. In 2015 we accepted 95,000 refugees here, mostly muslim, fleeing death and other extreme life conditions. So far no violence at all. I live in the 2nd largest city here and NEVER, day or late night, have felt I could be a victim of any crime. Yes, Austria is a very expensive country but the Hill Are Alive! I'm never returning to the USA.
Socialism. Try it!
7
@C T: Thank you for sharing your wonderful experiences! Your comment gives me hope. I wish everyone in the US could see it.
1
@Cindi T
Well thank you for telling me that I've given you hope, Cindi! Hope is no small thing these days. You wish that everyone in the USA could see it. I wish that everyone in the USA could LIVE it. It pains me to read daily of the suffering of my people and how they kill themselves just to get by. I count my blessing daily--not just for living here, for meeting the most honest and wonderful man and father one could dream of having in life. In NYC he said to me "come, let me take you out of this concrete jungle so you can live in paradise on earth! I'll make every dream you ever dreamt come true" You know what? HE DID!
It's incredible how Americans convinced themselves that measures that would greatly enhance their lives are a bad thing. Almost orwellian.
5
When one listens to Trish Regan's piece on Fox Business, it is obvious that the mention of Venezuela , 'socialism' and Denmark in the same context and within seconds of each other, is deliberate.
I believe that the construction of the report has been carefully thought out by the editorial team precisely to give the confusing impression that 'socialism' is the same where ever one looks and that we will end up like Venezuela if we try it!
The fact that Regan had to make a 'clarification' in resonse to the ourcry, in no way lessens the effectiveness of the bending of facts to give a false impression. But then this, of course, is what Fox does best.
Americans are yet to realize that in economics (as in most things) "freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose."
1
The "everyman in it for himself (and his immediate family)" that drives American life and correctly mistrusts the government to do the right thing for the whole of society with all of the tax revenue is our downfall in the USA. The rich have much more control of the government purse strings and the less poor segments don't benefit from the services provided like they do in Scandinavia.
In the 2016 debates when Ms. Clinton stated that Trump didn't pay any federal income tax he interrupted, "that makes me smart" most Americans probably agreed. She should have replied, "no, that makes you greedy."
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@Barry Cuda
"No, that makes you greedy" is pithy, but I think a better answer would have been, " If ours is a system whereby clever rich people can avoid paying taxes and thereby put the tax burden onto the rest of us, then we need to make some changes."
1
@Barry Cuda the family is the socialist aspect of our system Often these debates assume an environment in which each person is isolated and incapable. The reality is that most people can take care of themselves, and the most of the rest have a support network of friends and family. Replacing that with an impersonal bureaucracy has a downside as it crowds out friends and family, creating a paradoxical alienation at great expense.
Actually, what Hillary should have said is "no, that makes you a moocher."
Re. Health Care
If we choose to be a capitalistic nation, then let’s bring true capitalism and competition to the healthcare industry:
Published pricing.
Elimination of the health network handcuffs.
Broadening and maximizing the size of the insurance pools.
None of these exist in the US healthcare system.
I suspect if they were, prices would drop significantly and the highest levels of skill and services would be rewarded.
2
A major difference between Western Europe and the US is that European populations were historically more homogeneous than here. In Europe, social welfare helped people like 'us'.
In this country reason, with its historic diversity, racial, religious, ethnic, national origin and the historic tensions and divisions and indeed hatred that accompanied such diversity, a broad and effective social welfare state is a much tougher sell, since such programs are easily characterized as going to 'them'. That is essentially what we're experiencing. The wide differences in attitudes between D's and R's are predictably playing out in this area of policy.
3
The irony is that many of the benefits of a more social democratic leaning economic system would accrue to Trump's base who have been displaced by technology, globalism and other structural changes. They are willfully blinded by people like Fox's Regan to their own detriment.
7
It's all about realistic expectations about life. Danes understand this. Americans don't. Most Americans' wants and wishes exceed their grasp and they're unhappy. The Danes take it as it comes and are happier about the results. I always enjoyed doing business in Denmark for this simple reason. Life is far more enjoyable and upbeat.
1
As an anecdote my wife and I recently participated in a bicycle tour of Denmark. On an early rainy Saturday morning the tour bicycle mechanic presented our bicycles to the entrance of our hotel. I offered to help unload the bicycles in as much as the mechanic was an elderly gentleman. He graciously accepted the assistance. I inquired as to how long he has been doing this work. He informed me that he was actually the owner of the bicycle shop which provided the conveyances. Why, I asked, didn’t he have one of his younger employees available to do this. After all in the United States this would seem a perfect job for a plaid shirt wearing bearded millennial. He took this opportunity to educate me on the restrictive labor market in Denmark. “ The government mandated expenses required for hiring an employee would make that impossible I’m afraid”. One can imagine that my wife and I had plenty to talk about on the first leg of our journey.
3
Thank you for the anecdote. Which is not persuasive at all when viewed against the statistics presented by Krugman.
4
@Jeff Feldman: First, you assume that the "mechanic" presented your bicycles, then you are informed that he is the business "owner". Next, you imply that he is too "elderly" to deliver & unload his bicycles and imply that he should hire someone "younger". Did it occur to you that you offended him? I think that you did not understand his response & made up the stuff about the "restrictive labor market & the government mandated expenses" (minimum wage, perhaps?). Nice of you to offer to help unload, though. My husband would have done the same...although we would have certainly talked about more interesting things (scenery, culture) on our 1st leg of the journey.
Generally speaking most Europeans enjoy a better standard of living than most Americans. It's a fact. Food is better, health is better, work life balance is better and there are some basic guarantees that mean getting ill does not make you bankrupt.
I get tired of Republicans telling the American voters that everyone is envious of America. The truth is most Europeans are not at all envious of America - in fact just the opposite.
Most Europeans look at America as a great place to visit, but not for too long.
Americans are welcome in most places in Europe, but please don't stay too long.
And Americans need to understand that despite what they might think, they also have a vested interest in preserving the planet for future generations.
7
This hits the nail on the head. Most Americans are unaware of how poor the quality of life in America is compared to Europe.
1
There is a reason the term conservative begins with "con". Wake up America.
12
Thank you, Paul Krugman. I too have been in Denmark (20 years ago) and heard how their government works with considerable envy. I have long believed that the reason Americans hate taxes so much is that they get so little for them. One reason is that the military-industrial-congresdional complex gets too high a percentage.
10
For fifty years, America waged the cold war against communism and socialism. The two were seen as the same, and the airwaves were full of public service announcements crying out the evils of socialism to combat an evil enemy, the Soviet Union. Now the word "socialism" has a very negative connotation, and all that is necessary to defeat a candidate is to attach this label. Shinning a light on a country like Denmark brings reason into play in dealing with the subject, but it's going to be very hard to undo fifty years of brainwashing.
7
An important contract is to be made between social democrats who do not claim commitment to an eventual replacement of capitalism by socialism and democratic socialists who generally do, most relevant the Democratic Socialists of America or DSA. (Socialism here centrally means the direct owner ship and control of productive enterprises by a combination of a democratic government and elected representatives of work place workers.)
Importantly, the DSA, does stress "eventual" socialism but an immediate devotion to reforms of capitalism. These reforms are of a distinctly "social democratic" character and not aimed at the replacement of capitalism any more than are Progressive liberal reforms like social insurance, regulations on defense of competition and public health, and an occasional public enterprise like the TVA where markets do not deliver.
Still, long-term socialist goals do undermine Progressive and social democratic politics by raising a Spector of long term anti-capitalism that causes unease among the risk averse on the Left and provides a rhetorical opportunity for propagandists on the Right. After all, if a Fox News performer can stumble into dubbing Hirohito a Communist, all FOX News types can happily embrace the Communist stigmatization of a Sanders or an Ocasio-Cortes.
3
2017 Military expenditure (% of GDP)
https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/MS.MIL.XPND.GD.ZS
Denmark 1.2%
United States 3.1%
Denmark needs to spend more on defense.
@Kurt VanderKoi
Or the U.S. needs to spend less.
And Denmark spending more won’t decrase the power of the military industrial complex here.
7
@Kurt VanderKoi Why is that? So we can continue to fight wars with the US - because that is exactly what we have done since Iraq version 1. Any may I kindly remind you that we as a country have taken the most casualties measured per capita in Afghanistan? I assume that you didn't know that. Money spent on the military should rather be spent on the deteriorating climate, health care and the poor. Or is that just too "socially conscious"?
10
@Kurt VanderKoi
Maybe we need to spend less. Our budget is as large as the next 10 countries combined. National security includes the physical health of the nation as well as its economic potential which get consumed by too much military spending.
2