So now Americans get to see what happens when a buffoon like Trump is the president and some real trouble starts.
Frankly I do not have insight into where the conflict with Turkey is headed. The Turkish economic decline can't be laid at the feet of the United States, and the potential collapse of the Turkish economy is something I have commented on before.
Erdogan does not demonstrate a clear intention in terms of foreign relations in a landscape that is incredibly complicated. Turkey has borders with Syria, Iraq, Kurdistan (effectively), Iran and Russia, while maintaining what is essentially a civil war against the Kurds in it's own territory.
You get the feeling that Erdogan might be as ill-equipped to handle foreign relations as Trump, and if that is the case, we are in for big trouble. Just the economic consequences of mishandling the series of active problems swirling around Turkey has the potential for profound impact on the world economy.
If Turkey moves into any kind of effective alliance with Russia, then the whole region becomes a bloc - a pro-Russian block - and who knows how Trump is going to react to anything that happens in which Putin is the primary actor.
I am predicting Trump will start a war with Iran before he has to run for re-election. What I can't figure out is whether the alliance between Russia and Iran is such that Putin will intervene to stop such an election stunt war. But, with Trump in charge, chances are a catastrophe is coming and soon!
3
I've always liked Tayip Recep's independence, but - I don't like his drawing away from the army and becoming a Muslim state. There's not enough evidence against Suelem to bring him back to Turkey. Tayip thinks there is and wants him. There's where the big problem lies.
1
NYT Editorial Board: Your headline of Trump's "Downward Spiral" is completely unrelated to the editorial, which, if anything, talks about Turkey's downward spiral. It seems that everything the editorial board does nowadays is aimed at denigrating President Trump. In this case, your effort makes no sense whatsoever.
7
Where is "Lawrence of Arabia" when you need him. The stench of Stalin reeks from this Turkish government. Excellent article, by the way.
5
To dub Ataturk 'great' is to have an ulterior motive or to be ignorant of basic facts - or both! Using an alleged attempt on his life, Ataturk turned an imperfect but functioning multi-party political democracy into a Stalinist single-party regime locking up his political opponents and through a series of show trials hanged 1026 men in the three years, according to much respected Turkish historian Ms Ayşe Hur! He also hanged 49 Kurdish leaders in one night! Ataturk remains Erdogan's hero, but has not yet resorted to remotely similar political crimes. Ataturk gave women the right to vote by a decree, but could not provide them with jobs to be economically free or self-reliant.Yes, he was great as Mussolini was great for running trains on time or Hitler for creating autobahns!
12
Fascist Trump trying to MAGA. Fascist Erdogan is using Suni Islam as his tool. They support each other where they can. But when they clash it is like two Mafiosi dons in a turf war - without the murder.
Erdogan will probably find some way to cave (return the Christian minister), but Guhlen (turkish spiritual leader Erdogan is trying to frame for the aborted coup) may not be safe.
Trump seems desperate to divert attention from Manafort trial and scapegoating Muslims is a working tactic. He is politically toast when the Christians start acting like Jesus preaches, as opposed to following our own Mussolini.
22
Turkey is another artificial creation from the aftermath of World War ONE. Kamal Attaturk and his like minded cadre forged an entirely new nation out of the Old Ottoman Empire, which the moslem Turks(from central asia) conquered from the even older Byzantine Romans. The Byzantines operated an advanced Roman Christian empire for almost 1000 years, and the Ottomans successfully ran the entire World of Islam for another 500. Now Erdogan's lust for power have lured him back into dreams of Empire......he leverages Turkey's desire to become the Balkan Third of Europe versus runing the entire Islamic World from Istanbul once again.
5
Global testosterone diplomacy worked for the Romans, Bento Mussolini and the Italian Mafia, why not Trump. Turkey might be slipping East after decades of Western movement but the current Administration wants Turkey to become Iran-like. If Trump want to protect every bible-thumper on a mission ( Pun intended ) , he might start issuing every American Missionary diplomatic passports.
1
Seems that Trump's squabble with the Turkish dictator only escalated when the Turk was a jerk and didn't fulfill his side of the bargain. And even now, I suspect it would all go away if Erdogan just would live up to his word.
4
The complexity of all this calls for another type of POTUS. The Barak type or the Hilary type.
5
Call me ignorant; but while folks say American is one of the most religious countries in the world, it’s democracy is not built on Christian values per se—right? So isn’t it possible to run a democracy while allowing private citizens to practice Islam in their homes and mosques and allow others to practice their religions privately. Is Islam anymore prone to authoritarian rule than Christianity with its popes and kings—nations that repeatedly banned Jews, say? My head spins .....
10
Once again we see our great negotiator do more for Putin than he does for America. And when Putin gets the evangelical hostage out he will be the hero to evangelicals here and he will sell Erdogan more weapons, which will come with a leash. Putin ends up being the winner and his lapdog will get a bone.
7
Europe re-shapes itself for the 21st Century.....the Mediteranean Sea becomes the important center of trade. North Africa has always been more Europe than Africa.....and so it will happen that France must retake control of Algeria, Tunisia, etc....while Italy(Rome) must retake Libya and Spain and France struggle with Morroco.........Europe itselft morphs into the traditional weak centralized Tripartate....a Latin Third, a German Third, and a Balkan Third....it is the Balkan Third that Erdogan desires......its all Power Lust. Erdogan believes he has the strategy to control Islam(as the ottomans once did for 500 years)....and use Islam as the Force to ALSO control the Balkans(as the Ottomans once did).
3
In America,its foreign policy is controlled by the neo conservative world domination entity! Turkey's deteriorating relationship with Israel, parallels America's relationship with Turkey !
7
Newsbud's Sibel Edmonds has commented on the two issue of the American "pastor" and Turkey's Fetulan Gullah, and her view as a Iranian born person with multiple contacts in Iran and Turkey is worth paying attention to. The @nytimes view seems to parrot the establishment, which is what I would expect. But if that doesn't satisfy you, check out Newsbud.
6
"Turkey’s dispiriting recent history once again raises the question of whether Islamist values can coexist with democracy."
I ask myself the same thing about Christianity in America. It's the power of religion that demagogues are so apt at wielding, not the label.
35
All the same things could be said about Saudi Arabia? How come they get a free pass.... oh wait, I know, oil wealth transfered to USA.
22
Wow. Everything is fine till the end when you demean Islam. Why? Might as well ask if Jewish values don’t lead to the exclusionary authoritarianism of Netanyahu. Of course the times wouldn’t do that. They’d say why tar a whole religion because of a few bad apples. And yet the times rushes in to just that to Islam. I’m a Christian. And I disapprove.
10
Dictators don’t want to play nice? Dump them both.
@NYT: Missing a graphical representation / timeline / indicator of demise in this article badly. Could you consider adding one/two to make the point the writer's making easier to digest?
5
How can this editorial claim that Erdogan who was first elected in 2003 and has won the popular vote (which two US presidents have not done since that time) in free elections was never “a real democrat?” Also, are we really to believe that concerns over Erdogan’s authoritarian measures (which have been legitimately and vigorously challenged by his domestic opponents) is the cause of the rift between Turkey when Obama and Trump have cozied up to brutal, undemocratic leaders in Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and the UAE. Methinks the editorial board should read the news section of the NYT more closely (e.g., US-supported war crimes in Yemen, and John Kerry’s undermining of Egyptian democracy—see David Kirkpatrick’s scathing analysis of Obama/Kerry in NYT on July 27, 2018).
8
Turks' suspicions of American interest in undermining Turkish sovereignty come out of a history of Turkish conspiracy thought.Late Ottoman authorities blamed American missionaries for provoking nationalism among Armenians. In the Cold War Turks felt snubbed when JFK gave up the Jupiter missiles in Izmir over Cuba. A 2017 earthquake wasn't the first time Turkish newspapers suspected American spies of conducting underground experiments. The truth is that Turkey doesn't concern Americans as much as Turkish leaders imagine.
3
Turkey's so-called Western orientation was always accomplished through gaslighting the conservative Muslim countryside into letting the urban elites run the country. The West consistently pressured the army and the elite politicians into running fair elections, and surprise, when the countryside voted, it voted against the Western orientation. Pretty much like the "Arab Spring," only earlier.
Erdogan has been making radically anti-Western and anti-U.S. statements for years. At this point, Turkey's NATO membership is a joke, but we're stuck with a bunch of nukes at a base in an increasingly hostile country, unless the military has had the sense to remove them secretly. Erdogan would not go to war to save, e.g., the Baltic states, and it's hard to see a reason why we and the rest of NATO should go to war for Turkey if it gets itself attacked in it's bid to resurrect the Ottoman Empire. Similarly, saying the E.U. made a strategic mistake by not pushing to include Turkey is silly. The place is now effectively a dictatorship, with values that don't fit into a globalist Europe. The more you push Turkey on Europe, the more power right-wing populist parties there will acquire.
Not a fan of Trumpian foreign policy, but it really is time to cut Turkey loose. Give us back our hostages, and get the heck out of Dodge.
9
Turkey was our ally since WWII only because of the expression, an enemy of an enemy is a friend. The friendship does not go deep, there is not too much otherwise in common.
Russia is actually a better friend now than Turkey is. Russia has not kidnapped American nationals as Turkey has, nor would it be thinkable for Russia to do so.
Unlike Germany, Turkey has not admitted let alone tried to make any semblance of atonement whatsoever for the Armenian genocide during WWI and also the Greek genocide, which is hardly ever mentioned. The great fire of Smyrna in 1922 targeted the Christian communities, namely Greeks and Armenians.
With this history, why the west tolerated and befriended Turkey is a great disappointment.
The invasion and occupation of Cyprus in 1974 was another violation.
20 of our nationals are currently being held by Turkey ostensibly because the US correctly will not extradite Gulen. It is inconceivable that the US will reverse this position, and Turkey has no choice but to understand this. In the meantime, American nationals would be wise to not step foot in this hostile country.
4
We missed Atatürk.
4
Erdogan. Trump and Putin are all the same, autocrats using populism. Nationalism and personality cult to project power. The board wonders if Islam is compatible with democracy, surprising final statement from NYT that should know better. All Erdogan is doing is using religion, Islam in this case, as a populist tool. Just like Trump using evangelical Christianity, and Netanyahu using Judaism. More reasons to guard secularism everywhere, at home too.
20
Turkey and its regression into Islamo-fascism is a problem but so is the trump regime, which is attempting to turn the U.S. into a world's largest banana republic. Let's be clear, trump is basically no better than Erdogan and in some respects may actually be worse if you factor in his mental instability and fondness for all things Russian. So lecturing the Turks does seem a little odd right now. At the end of the day, it's hard to discern who is a bigger threat to NATA and democratic values
7
Other than starting a shooting war, Trump could not be worse for the rest of the world. One hopes.
Feuding with Turkey, a country with marginal economic clout, is ridiculous. The country is on the brink of Islamic extremism and the military will put down any unrest related to a spiraling economy and political situation, brutally.
Some one, please tell the president an allied and prosperous Turkey would be a good counterweight to Russia. Unless, the president wants the opposite.
3
NYT editorial board opinion summarizes the facts very well especially addressing Erdogan's OpEd.
Erdogan's OpEd is in fact completely in line with Erdogan's (and AKP) anti-west propaganda: "Foreign powers - (West) are all enemies". The propaganda escalated especially after 15 July coup attempt, which ended up Erdogan's counter coup gradually taking over the whole state with all institutions.
Erdogan famously said at the night of the coup that "The coup is a God's blessing". Erdogan happily shared power with Gulenists many years until he felt threatened and his corruption network was uncovered.
At the end, it is simply a case of liberal democracy vs Islam.
5
This very one sided oped failed to mention that its own correspondent David Kirkpatrick has documented how the US betrayed the Arab Spring and democracy in Egypt and Syria while deferring to its client regimes of KSA, UAE, and Israel. Now the US wants to serve their disastrous agenda by provoking conflict with Iran. This is why the US is poised to lose Turkey and the Islamic world to China as its own geopolitical decline deservedly accelerates.
8
How hospitable of Turkey to "host" our WMD. Tut,tut, AirBnB would gladly take over if things get too uncivil. Help these days.
1
Re "But over the years, he has shown his true colors as an autocrat, skilled at promoting economic populism, militant nationalism and social conservatism — all while cultivating his own cult of personality."
Hmmm. Now who does that remind me of?
7
Other than commenting that NATO should have drawn Turkey closer to its orbit, I find this editorial lacking any decisive opinion. It appears to be more a recitation of facts and the obvious. Is the NYT in agreement with the Trump's administration actions or does it feel that there is a better path to be pursued? I understand your editorial board may be reluctant to give the Donald any credit, but bear in mind that even the blind squirrel finds the occasional acorn.
2
Turkey is not spiralling downward. The NYTs editors are simply applying an out-dated 1960s era frame of reference to developments in the modern world. The Editors still cling to the belief that the rest of the world wants to be just like America. We throw around catch-phrases and words like "democracy" and "capitalism", free-speech, diversity, blah, blah, blah........the rest of the world is no longer paying attention.....Thanks to the incredible investments made by the USA(and USA only)....there is virtualy NO third world anymore...Affluence is everywhere.....modern technology improves health, education, prosperity everywhere. There's indigenous Amazonians updating their Facebook page on an iphone in the middle of the Jungle! But along the way....Vietnam rejected us. China took advantage of our generousity and is forging a completely different approach to improving society. Central America rejects us, and sends us all the victims from their own brutal societies. Iraq and Afghanistan refects all attempts made to teach them a "better way". Yet we Americans remain hypnotized by a world view that hasnt been connected to the Present Day since 1968.
9
Erdogan believes he can do it all.......Become the Caliph of Islam, ruling all of Islam from Istanbul once again.....AND participate in the advanced economy of Europe. And there seems to be enough superficial evidence in the Modern World to support his dreams of Power. Europe appears to be fracturing once again.....making it seem reasonable for Istanbul to once again control the Balkans and Eastern Europe, controlling trade routes to/from Russia/Germany. The source of Power is Islam.......but this is also Erdogan's tragedy.......as the Saudis and the Iranians AND even the Egyptians also think they have a claim to the Caliphate of Islam......and therein lies Erdogan's disaster.
1
Erdogan wants to be a sultan; we should reestablish the Byzantine Empire (Eastern Roman Empire) that the Ottomans destroyed in 1453.
3
It is about time that the Unites States began using its considerable resources to protect and in some cases rescue its citizens abroad when diplomatic avenues prove unsuccessful. Regardless of past differences and difficulties on both sides of any international relationship, the United States government has the obligation and the right to come to the aid of its citizens. Using economic leverage to achieve this end is a simple, non-violent economical way to achieve the release of Andrew Brunson. Would anyone in the same situation as Mr. Brunson find fault with his government's actions on their behalf? I think not.
3
Yes, the world habitually suffers tyrants and fools.
Much of the stuff like this would not be happening, however, except for Donald J. Trump being president.
With Trump, how much more? And when will he be stopped?
4
US has organized several coups in Turkey. Well known are coup of 1960 and 1980. Turkish army prepared this coups in cooperation with CIA.
When Turkish army tried to turn away from US towards Asia, CIA gave a start for long time prepared insider forces, The Gulan movement for a coup.
No one is more blind than a person that does not want to see and no-one is more deaf then one that does not want to hear.
Tons of documents , testaments and hearing documents were sent to the US government to send back Gelen movement responsible.
It is normal that US does not want to give away her CIA team to Turkey bur it is awkward to force economic sanctions to shut up and stir Turkey.
It is not possible for me to defend Erdogan but Turkey and Erdogan are different things.
Russia, who has been an ancient enemy is now being replaced by US and believe me, this is an opinion that will not be possible to change for decades.
9
More fabulous international diplomacy by Trump. He's just so subtle and clever, isn't he? What a winner!
Please.
It is heart-breaking to watch Turkey deteriorate from the point just a few years ago when it looked like the country would be admitted to the EU. Then along came Erdogan, a classic thug and strongman, and democracy as it was once known in that lovely country is circling the drain.
I do wonder, if the EU weren't so biased against Muslims, and Turkey had been admitted to the EU years ago, whether inclusion in the EU would have forestalled or prevented the rise of Erdogan and the fall of Turkish democracy.
I've had the privilege of visiting Turkey several times. The Turkish people are incredibly kind and generous; all they want is just to be able to make a decent living and be left alone. The current situation in Turkey is a true tragedy, and it looks like it will only get worse as time goes on.
7
This article concludes by saying: “Mr. Erdogan’s increasingly authoritarian rule and the regional unrest caused by the Syrian conflict have tested this bond.” The “bond” is what supposedly once tied the US and Turkey.
This remark contradicts the real reason for Trump’s actions stated earlier, which have absolutely nothing to do with Erdogan’s authoritarianism nor Turkey’s action in Syria. The reason for Trump’s action is simply a pander to the narrow-minded evangelicals that support Trump regardless of his unseemly irreligious actions. As the article points out earlier in a limited moment of clarity: “The object is to force the Turkish president, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, to release Andrew Brunson, an American and evangelical Christian pastor”
It’s entirely unclear why the Times, after its moment of accuracy, ended its article with an attempt to breathe unprecedented sanity into DJ Trump!
10
"Dictator"? Really? Is that a proper term for someone who has been asking for voters' approval of ALL his major decisions during more than 15 years?
In the recent presidential elections, he received a 52% majority, 20 points more than his main rival. His party got the majority of parliament seats too.
Apparently this "dictator" has the majority of Turkish people on his side, whether the West likes it or not. Now that majority is collectively punished financially for their "wrong" preferences.
And Western readers continue being victims of misinformation about the "dictator"...
10
I don't understand why the US is so crossed with the arrest. Didn't the Americans just arrested the Russian girl on trumped up charges? Why is it OK for the US, but not for Turkey?
5
Beware any politician who says he needs more power. Today, Turkey faces an existential challenge from a leader who wants to be a dictator and destroy the legacy of modern Turkey's founder, Ataturk.
Democracy is a fragile thing that is continuously under threat from the human desire for power and wealth. Few democracies survive very long in the face of those threats. Turkey's democracy has lasted since 1922. If Erdogan has his way, it won't for much longer. It will cease to be a secular state with the loss of a critical pillar of democracy, the separation of religion and the government. History tells us that that never ends well.
40
@Dick Dowdell
The old saying goes; "how well do you know your neighbor? As well as I know myself". Are you sure you are talking about Turkey?
5
We should have supported the military coup against Erdogan in 2016. The military has always protected Turkey's constitutional liberal system of government against extremist strongmen like Erdogan. The military has a long history of stepping in to protect the country from likes of Erdogan, but then stepping back and allowing for resumption of civilian rule. Erdogan has been destroying the independent professional military and the best traditions of Turkish governance, and in the process he is unraveling Turkey's alliance with the West. This is just another example in a long list of messes that Obama handed off to Trump.
3
@Charles How would you feel if another country supports or manipulates a group against free will of the people in the US? Wait that's what Russia did during the 2016 elections. Believe it or not Turkey has free and fair democratic elections and Erdogan had %52 of the vote.
6
Turkey is one of several countries -- the EU, Russia, China, India to name only the main ones -- who refuse to 'stop trading with Iran' just because the US decided to renege on the agreement it signed under UN auspices with Iran, and with which Iran is in compliance. This is a case where the US rather than Turkey is isolated.
The tone of this whole editorial reflects the pervasive American failure to see the world as others see it and to concede that just once in a while the US could be even slightly wrong.
18
@Molly O'Neal you are correct. But lets not turn a blind eye to Iran's lies, the current awareness of Obama's poor performance and the fact that nothing in the unlawful agreement between Obama and Iran was ever going to stop or hinder nuclear weapon development in Iran.
The article could just as easily be titled, "The United States' Downward Spiral." Erdogan is a tyrant, like Putin. However, Turkey historically has been an important ally. So Turkey's concerns have to addressed.
9
To start with, Turkey's downward spiral began after Mr. Edogan went from being Prime Minister to President and after getting a taste of power, decided to turn a relatively moderate Muslim state into his own personal Caliphate -- complete with a palace of over 1.000 rooms, all built at the taxpayer's expense.
Ever since then, he has clamped down in anyone he perceives to be against him; be it students, demonstrators, the military, the clergy, the media, journalists or even foreigners.
His list of imagined and real offenders is endless.
Any dreams Mr. Erdogan might have had of joining the E.U. have seriously gone south since he decided to play hardball with Angela Merkel on how many refugees he would take for how much money, because it didn't take long for Germany to realize it wasn't a deal he was making, but outright extortion, which in the end would also drive them out of NATO's Incirlik Air Base, after Mr. Erdogan retaliated by not allowing German politicians to visit troops stationed there.
In the meantime, he has found a new best friend in Vladimir Putin after the inevitable conflict with Mr. Trump.
How this bodes for the future of U.S.- Turkish relations and NATO is anybody's guess.
But at the moment, it certainly looks like Mr. Erdogan will not be building any more palaces.
12
It strikes me that most of the words used to describe Erdogan also describe Trump: autocrat, promoter of economic populism and social conservatism, star of his own cult of personality, crusher of independent media and journalists.....We need to be more concerned about the danger within our own shores.
39
@curious cat Did you miss the following sentence? It reads: He has all but crushed independent media, jailing journalists and other critics, and fosters corruption. I think you have been struck with Trump Derangement Syndrome.
1
Kick this dictator out of NATO. Trump is right as usual. We are protecting too many hanger-oners as it is.
3
@Jay Lincoln
By geography, Turkey remains very important to NATO, Europe, and the US’s need to restrain opposing military forces to Turkey’s north and east.
7
@Jay Lincoln While we're at it, let's have Trump give Putin our nuclear codes, try to weaken Germany some more, and make it ever more difficult for NATO to resist Russian tyranny. I mean, who needs "democracy" when we've got Trump?
3
@Jay Lincoln
And how are we protecting them, concretely, you think ... ?
Turkey isn't being attacked, so we're actually doing nothing at all.
And Turkey has been and is a key ally of the entire West in the Middle East, both against Iran, ISIS and Russia. That concretely means, for instance, that the US has military bases in Turkey that allow us to quickly get to US soldiers in Afghanistan, Iraq etc. Those bases are CRUCIAL in order for America to continue and maybe one day win those wars.
And although Erdogan indeed turned Turkey into a dictatorship, Saudi Arabia is a MUCH worse dictatorship, and yet, you guys aren't calling for any sanctions against Saudi Arabia.
Conclusion: you have to be as ignorant of the situation on the ground as Trump in order to be able to follow him in his latest foreign policy tantrum ... unless you do have some concrete arguments to support his decisions ... ?
1
It is now clear that Erdogan was always on a path diametrically opposed to that of Kemal Ataturk. Attaturk recognized that separation of state and mosque was essential to creating a modern, free and culturally islamic Turkey and took various concrete steps to accomplish this. Erdogan seeks to reverse this -- to re-establish Islam.
No good can or will come of this. It can only be hoped that Ataturk's legacy prevails over Erdogan's in the long run (in which Erdogan -- and the rest of us -- will be dead).
11
Not letting Turkey in the EU was a mistake? Letting Turkey THINK it could be part of the EU was the mistake. Half the farmers in the EU would be Turkish if it were a member. If educated, cosmopolitan Turks only were included, then maybe. While making Turkey an EU member, why not give all Mexicans and Central Americans visa-free access to the US. They are Christians and don't wear veils and speak a language many Americans speak.
6
Couple of facts.
Countries with large Islamic population can never get rich or stay rich, unless you have oil. Some of the semi affluent Islamic countries in Southeast Asia have large non Islamic population that conducts the large businesses to bring in wealth.
European will not allow Turkey to be part of EU until Turkey is much richer than EU nations.
2
@Realist
The day you start reading history books, you'll see that for hundreds of years, "countries with large Islamic population" were much wealthier than the West, and without selling any oil ...
And today, the country with the largest Muslim majority, Indonesia (87% Muslims) is also the largest Southeast Asian economy, all while being the world's seventh largest economy in terms of GDP at PPP.
It's a services-based economy, not an oil economy.
It's strong GDP (4-5% annually) helped it wither the global 2008 recession much better than many other countries.
As to Turkey: it's GDP (PPP) is higher than that of Spain, Poland, the Netherlands etc. So if you wanted to transform the EU into a club of the wealthiest nations in the region, you'll have to kick out Spain and immediately include Turkey ... ;-)
Fortunately though, that is NOT how the procedure to get "candidate" status works ...
13
@Realist Mineral wealth can also be a cause of backwardness, failure to innovate and function. The “Dutch disease”. But better to be rich and backward than poor and backward.
1
@Ana Luisa:
Since the population of Turkey is about 80 mill. the GDP (PPP) per capita is far lower than Spain, The Netherlands or even the pretty unwealthy Poland.
Turkey is not a developed industrial but an emerging economy. The previous industrialization was mainly driven by German companies and capital because of long lasting economic ties back to the 19th century. German Investments are backed by national monetary bonds which are now under fire too.
Islamic values cannot coexist with democracy for the same reason Christian Conservative values cannot. Both religions are comprised mostly of believers who suffer from the same incompatibility and for the same reason: they place more value on authority than they do liberty, and their authoritarian personalities leave them both wanting to be told what to do, and wanting to impose their will on others.
Now surely there are more liberal people who believe in monotheistic religions, but for the most part those people have modified their interpretation of scripture to align with pluralist society. And for the most part, those same people are not comfortable in places of worship.
25
@Eric
What makes you believe that politically liberal and progressive interpretations of the Bible/Quran somehow are "modifications" of more ancient, politically conservative interpretations ... ?
I don't see anything that justifies such a hypothesis.
Both Muhammad and Jesus were extremely progressive for their time and culture, and progressive readings of the Christian Bible have prevailed for at least 4 centuries, before Christian leaders decided to work with rather than against the Roman emperor, and then turned Christianity into the empire's state religion.
Conclusion: don't let yourself be fooled by extremists' rhetoric. Those people may claim to represent the only real or original interpretation of ancient sacred texts, but science of religions has proven them to be wrong time and again ... ;-)
5
I find it a little odd that Trump is so unaccommodating towards Erdogan, despite our President’s apparent distrust of Muslims. It seems to me Erdogan is just the kind of populist autocrat that Trump would find to be enchanting. He (Erdogan) has centralized power, gutted the judiciary, edited out parts of the Turkish constitution he finds inconvenient and has smothered the domestic free press. From Trump’s warped perspective, what’s not to like?
I believe it boils down to the ‘tail wagging the dog’ school of statesmanship. Trump's in hot water at home, so he picks a fight overseas with a weak Ally in order to both distract his domestic audience and our own press. At the same time, he probably thinks this makes him look strong (very important to Don) to his base here in the states as we approach the midterms. I doubt the President cares as much about imprisoned Americans in Turkey as he does about misdirecting Americans' attention by acting tough on the international stage. The more dire the GOP's prospects become in November, the more pugnacious and unpredictable Trump is going to become. If only he could see his way clear to direct more of his angst at solving real problems for the American people...instead manufacturing crisis after crisis to pump up his ratings.
11
Make Turkey impoverished again?
So Trump's coercive whims rattle Europe and emerging markets. Can we finally dispense with the notion that Trump is a great negotiator?
How many disputes with world nations does Trump want to have? After his tweet, the country's lira plunged 20% — its biggest one-day drop since it's 2001 financial crisis.
Then with the domino effect of any contagious situation, European banks with operations in Turkey also fall-- as do stock index funds.
Is this one of the off shoots Trump and Putin secretly discussed in Helsinki? Turkey's leader Erdogan promptly telephoned Putin to hook up with Russia rather than NATO.
7
It is difficult to maintain alliances or stable relations with countries run by demagogues. Unfortunately there are now two of those involved in our relationship with Turkey. Trump runs foreign policy, like everything else, for his own private gain.
9
I am very impressed about how well the editors defined Erdogan's modus operandi ( (i.e. economic populism, militant nationalism and social conservatism.)
He has really sold out every good looking thing that the country has. What is left is darkness. I mean absolute monarchy in 21st century. He accumulated enough wealth to feed his subjects and dismiss 60% of the Turks and the West.
1
It's time to kick Turkey out of NATO, halt all U.S. weapons sales to that country and let Erdogan know he'll remain an international pariah until he changes his behavior. Of course Trump is not the one to do it as he himself is an international pariah as well as an admirer of dictators.
4
@Christy
The relationship between Turkey and the US dates from WW2. It is valuable enough that the US maintains a nuclear and Air Force equipped military base in Turkey. This is not an easy friendship, but it is not helpful to have heads of state undertaking personalized arguments instead of cool headed military coordinations.
3
and @Christy what do you call for the behavior you described above?
This is what Inevitably happens (hint/hint) when a dictator takes power. The tyranny that follows creates a downward spiral that leads to nothing but disaster for everyone involved. The innocent always suffers the worst.
5
These two would-be dictators' affinity for each other is otherwise outweighed by their political need to embrace their respective religious supporters.
11
I disagree with the last paragraph in the context of Turkey, about Islam in particular being incompatible with democracy. Erdogan is using religion to his favour to get power and money. His assault on democratic institutions is what whittled away democracy. The many religious Turks who were unrepresented in past governments rather turn a blind eye to his abuses, or not even know due to censorship and state controlled media. Religious people turning a blind eye as democracy crumbles, because their supporter is in power, sound familiar?
14
“But if tensions continue to escalate, what will be left of this vital bilateral relationship, and will Mr. Trump and Mr. Erdogan be able to repair it?”
Has Mr. Trump ever, in his life, repaired anything?
4
Erdogan says he will need to look for other friends. Putin would like Turkey to be more of an ally. I think Donnie Trump has his marching orders
7
Kissinger once observed that "...to oppose the US is often dangerous. To be allied to it is invariably fatal..."
Out of some 190 countries in the UN, we have sanctioned (at one time or another) close to 150 of them.
Right now, we are sanctioning Russia, China (plus trade war), Turkey, Iran, Syria. We are encouraging new alliances against us.
Plus, the Chinese are going to eventually figure out a new international banking system that makes asset seizures and sanctions mostly irrelevant.
11
Beyond his capacity though to grasp the full import of hostility against Turkey yet the angry outbursts and the punitive trade action against Turkey that Trump has unthinking indulged in will only undermine the US interests. For, having entered into the strategic alliances with Russia and Iran, the anti-US powers, if Erdogan has turned the power balance in the Middle East to his side, he is consciously raising the US anxieties about the safety issues of its strategically important military base in Turkey let alone its capacity to mobilise the anti-US sentiment in the NATO alliance. It's Erdogan thus who will be the gainer at the end in this feud triggered by Trump's twitter threats against Turkey.
6
Turkey's problem is not that they are not a democracy. I think Erdogan won the popular vote. When will we get over this democracy issue. Democracy does not guarantee rights of free speech for individuals, political dissent, ect. Democracy without constitutional limitations on government that protect individual rights is rule by the mob. History shows that Tyrants have been elected over and over again in popular votes.
11
@CBH valid points. cultural indoctrination and holding a constitution like ours as the basis of the country are necessary for long term stability. fly-by-night changes because one doesn't like an outcome is what causes huge problems.
4
Democracy BY DEFINITION means:
1. Separation of the three branches of government.
2. Freedom of expression for all individuals and groups, including the media and including when you strongly disagree with a sitting or previous government.
3. Free elections, allowing any citizens to become a candidate, and allowing all citizens to vote.
4. Some form of majority rule, which allows the winners of elections to have more political power than those who lost them.
The opposite of a democracy is a dictatorship. There you have:
1. A Constitution that gives the Executive the legal power (a) to pick, in one way or the other (directly, or through selecting candidates), the members of the Legislative branch of government, so that it can dictate Congress what bills to pass, and (b) to pick the judges and justices all by itself, and hire or fire them as it likes.
2. Judicial persecution and conviction of political opponents (ordinary citizens, politicians, journalist and media groups).
3. Biased elections, where candidates among whom voters can choose are selected by the Executive itself.
4. Some formal resemblance to the majority rule as defined above, but no real majority rule as voters didn't have a real choice (because of 2 and 3).
Erdogan just changed the Turkish Constitution and concretely inscribed dictatorial power mechanism in the new Constitution, all while cracking down on dissent - shutting down all the media still criticizing him etc.
That's the end of democracy.
3
I am no fan of President Trump, but Turkey has been deteriorating for years now under the delusions of grandeur of Recep Tayyip Erdogan and this action is long overdue. The United States is asking for the release from house arrest of one American so he can return home, along with the release from prison of several employees of the US Embassy and Consulates in Turkey. That's it. We sat back and watched this regime jail tens of thousands of people for being simply political opposition and did nothing. We watched President Erdogan visit the United States and order his security services to attack and beat peaceful protesters in our capital and did nothing. Enough is enough. If this megalomaniac can't swallow his pride and release one American and few diplomatic support personnel in response to his economy being flushed down the toilet, then what do we even need this alliance for anyway? We have Cyprus, Greece, Israel, Iraq, Jordan, the Gulf States, Saudi Arabia and...surprise!, Kurdistan (better get used to that word Erdogan) all right there in the region to conduct military exercises out of. Turkey can either wake up or learn what it's like when you cross the United States over some nonsense. The Turkish Lira is at 6.43 to the Dollar as I write this. And that's only the beginning. You thought we supported the Kurds before? Wait and see what we do if Turkey cements an Alliance with the Russians.
29
I disagree with most of Trump policies except his approach to Turkey. Turkey committed genocide against Armenians, has been persecuting it’s large Kurdish population. I suggest the editorial board go and visit eastern Turkey and hear the story of Kurdish people. Turkey was the country who helped ISIS and most of its militia freely passed through Turkey. It’s the country who is invading Syria just to fight Kurds on bogus accusations. Turkey is a country where heads of major parties and members of parliament are in jail because of opposing Erdogan. Remember, one of the presidential candidates in the last election was running from jail. Erdogan and his cronies are corrupt monsters and must be kicked out of NATO. I won’t be surprised if Turkey is secretly passing intelligence about our military and assets to Russians and Iranians.
I am amazed at the editorial board supporting Turkey’s EU membership. A country with this track record and more would be a disaster for the E.U. I believe they made the right decision. Turkey undrr Erdogan is following the steps of Khomeini, so better cut it lose now rather than later.
44
@Robert
Things are more complicated than that.
As Erdogan correctly remembers, Turkey HAS been a US and EU ally for decades already, especially when it comes to militarily defending America and Europe's interests in the region, and to a certain extent Erdogan continues to do so today.
Furthermore, the integration of a new country into the EU is not comparable to doing that country a favor, as you seem to think. There's a long procedure that goes with merely being accepted as a CANDIDATE country, and that procedure implies deep internal reform in order to comply with European standards and values.
In theory, there's nothing in the Turkish Constitution that makes those reforms impossible. All that is needed is the political will to do so, and on that, Erdogan has for a long time suggested that he was prepared to do so (but now does the exact opposite, when it comes to internal reform).
The huge advantage for the EU and NATO to have Turkey included in the EU is that it would strengthen the West's presence in the Middle East, at a moment when Russia is becoming a very strong regional foe - and knowing that Turkey could easily start to side with Russia and Iran instead.
As to Trump: apart from rhetoric he's doing absolutely nothing to protect the Kurds or obtain justice for the Armenians. His erratic foreign policy decisions are way too irrational to be able to obtain any positive change in Turkey.
44
@Ana Luisa
Your own charter of the EU, and before that of the 3 communities, the EEC, ECSC, and EurAtom, all make as a condition of EU membership, a Democratic Republic as defined by Western democracies. Turkey was well on its way to becoming one when Erdogan was elected. His systematic destruction of every pathway to a Western-style democracy disqualifies Turkey from EU membership.
Poland's and Hungary's rapid attempts to dismantle their still-new Western-style democracies, a la Putin, should subject them to sanctions and eventual expulsion from the European Union should they continue on that path, which seems inevitable.
The EU is built on an idea that came about after the first World War, defined by an Austrian, Richard Coudenhove-Kalergi, who saw a liberal, Democratic "United States of Europe" as the path to prosperity and preventing future European wars. The establishment, after WWII, of each of the 3 communities (starting with the ECSC) proved that such a community COULD keep the peace and prosper at the same time.
But a critical component is a western-style Democratic Republic, and Turkey has failed in this.
Trump doesn't give a hoot about that--but his base demands he work to free an American Christian pastor imprisoned by Turkey, regardless of the damage done.
3
I never cease to be amazed by the amazed the arrogance of people from the US pushing the EU to accept Turkey as a member. If the US wants to accept Turkey into the United States they are free to do so. While it has been occasionally considered, it was never really an option for the EU. Even less so today. Adding a few hundred square miles of land in Europe does not make it a European nation. Nor does it share the values and cultural heritage and traditions of Europe. Not to mention that while it may not be politically correct to remind readers, Europe’s culture is rooted in a Judeo-Christian with an overlay of secular tradition and equality between men and women as the cornerstone of our civil society which also renders any consideration of Turkey a nonstarter.
Just to make things clear. Turkey would never be accepted as a member of the European Union. Its approval would require a favorable vote by all member states. And there are many member states, including France that would never, and I need never ever accept Turkey’s admission.
And with reference to this issue of Turkey being a good ally, please. Over the last few years, Turkey has been playing a double game, asking for billions of euros to stem the flow of migrants into Greece while at the same time participating in the traffic with officials in the Turkish coastal towns actually selling shoddy zodiacs to facilitate the crossing to Lesbos. With allies like Turkey, who needs enemies.
1
So maybe Islam just does not equate with Western Democracy that requires open mindedness, less adherence to antiquated scripture, and some level of a public quorum to be able to believe and pursue the new and untested. Freedom of women, and media are key that Islam for centuries and across all its nations continues to have for breakfast.
So let it go. Do not hand over a wrong model to Islam because you believe it is the best thing for them. What business did the Pastor have to be in Turkey? Are there not enough homeless in US to service? Is it not religious hegemony and offensive to Islamic sentiment?
It seems Trump is fighting a boxing match sometimes using the US Presidency. This fight with Turkey is deeply dangerous. Both Trump and EU are pushing a geo strategic nation into the arms of Russia.
Imagine this scenario: Russia Turkey Iran. Could be seeds for WW-III.
US needs to be very careful and needs to stop what seems to border on US hegemony. Alas we cannot choose our own leaders, and this is way outside of Trump’s league. His actions veer on outright incompetence on this one.
10
@Vsh Saxena
You should read NYC imam Feisal's book "What's right with Islam". There's absolutely NOTHING in Islam that would make it by definition incompatible with democracy - quite on the contrary.
There are actually lots of similarities between Judaism, Christianity and Islam, so both can be used by cynical politicians and "religious" leaders to justify dictatorships, or to justify progress towards a more thriving and free democracy.
Just one example: our own vice-president today refuses to have work lunches with female colleagues, and only does so with male colleagues. He's justifying such deep discrimination against women on the highest level of the US government by referring to ... his Christian religion.
Obama, however, was a Christian too, and did the exact opposite.
You can find innumerous illustrations of the same kind of situations in the history of Islam and Judaism too ...
How to use Islam to justify more equality between men and women (as so many Muslim women all over the world are doing today)? By referring to the fact that the prophet Muhammad gave MUCH more power to women than his local culture did at the time - or the fact that he married a woman that was much older than him and a highly successful single businesswoman at the time of their marriage ... . It's enough to want to actualize the SPIRIT of Islam to be able to use it as a weapon against dictatorship, inequality, discrimination etc. ...
7
First of all, Turkey is a secular state and non-muslims are free to work there. Sheesh. And if a major war broke out, we’d only have to worry about Russia. I think Turkey and Iran would be badly defeated in a day by the U.S., France and Israel.
2
@Chris McClure
I think I have heard those words before..Oh yes, in the run up to Iraq and Afghanistan...17 years ago. Never underestimate the power of a people attacked.
Turkey never had a bourgeois class which can defend democracy, Atatürk tried to establish that class by giving privileges to a certain trader community. Today Turkey is experiencing a transition of bourgeois from elites to islamists cults. This transition demonstrated itself with incompetent statesman, uneducated masses, extravagant government spending that aims to please cult interests and gaining support of uneducated citizens. Deteriorating situation foreseen by people like me since 2002 and we only had one crumble of information: Democracy can not co-exist with Islam. While western media praise to Erdogan for his democratizing actions, we thought about the time his mask would fall. Now there is no mask. Half of the population believes in a conspiracy of US rather than questioning economical policies of country. Half of the population despises modern and secular way of life. Half of the population rely on nepotism and social aids provided to partisanship. I see AKP as a Ponzi scheme rather than a political party and unfortunately Turkey will collapse when this scheme end.
69
@arda Actually, Ataturk's solution to the lack of a "bourgeois class which can defend democracy" was a secularized military which would oust Islamic zealots from political power if they attained it.
4
I wouldn't dare praise Trump for applying pressure that could have the effect of weakening the vile Erdogan, because whatever action Washington has taken thus far have nothing to do with long-term geopolitical policy. On the contrary, EVERYTHING that Washington has done since the election of the man in the White House has been knee-jerk and entirely personal, putting this country's long-term relationships and alliances at great risk. Still, one cannot but be glad that Erdogan is finding himself in an uncomfortable situation, as he deserves nothing but discomfort although nothing that Washington can do will cause his imminent downfall. IF Washington had chosen to apply sanctions against our "ally" based on the autocratic policies implemented by Erdogan then I think this paper as well as most strategists would applaud the action. Unfortunately, my reaction to this current situation is decidedly mixed in that Washington's motives for applying these sanctions aren't honorable and yet I find it hard to criticize them due to my pleasure at seeing Erdogan's life made that much more difficult.
7
I'd disagree that the main problem was that Ataturk has imposed democracy "from above".
Ataturk didn't just import the legal structure that goes with any democracy (separation of the 3 branches of government, freedom of expression and access to a serious education for all (allowing voters to have well-informed opinions about the state of the union and campaign platforms before voting, and allowing them to resist any form of propaganda)), he also tried to import something much more specific: European 18th century Enlightenment theory.
And even that is still incorrect because too broad. He imported a very specific branch of (the many mutually conflicting branches of) that theory: the one based on a presupposed opposition/incompatibility between religion and reason/rationality/truth.
Ataturk has tried to sell atheism as a rationally superior philosophy, and although until today part of the people living in the West still believe this idea, there is no scientific evidence to support it at all.
That means that a society where religion was largely part of the local culture and habits, all of a sudden had to start seeing itself as irrational and inferior.
Erdogan is taking revenge for the symbolic violence that Ataturk imposed on a large part of the population, and that probably adds a lot to his popularity.
Unfortunately, ordinary citizens came to associate democracy itself with this kind of dangerous, militant atheism, and that cannot but hurt the entire country.
10
It would seem you forget the history of the United States when you assert that 'Ataturk imposed democracy from above, focusing on the elite, as opposed to cultivating it organically, from the citizenry up.' At adoption of its constitution in 1789 only white, propertied adult males could participate in the political process. Seems rather elitist in its focus to me. Democracy in America has always been limited, but reached its participatory high point within living memory.
With the disenfranchisement of convicted felons, which we know to be racially biased, and the highest prison population in the world democratic representation has declined in the last decades.
Further, Ataturk was a recent phenomenon in Turkey: a secularized leader who looked to the west for direction. The west is failing in its democratic vision (Hungary, Slovakia, Poland, Italy, the US). Why should we expect different behavior from Erdogan?
17
The European Union certainly did not make a mistake by postponing indefinitely the membership of Turkey.
Recent history with Eastern Europe already proofs that it's very, very difficult just to glue a nation into the Union: it takes a certain set of shared values to succeed.
Incorporating Mexico in to the USA would be far less problematic!
5
The IIF (Institute for international finance) estimates the global debt as of May of this year at $237trn. Sure much of this debt has been incurred by China, but that economy is able to manage that debt. Most of it is in local currency not dollars and China has huge foreign currency reserves in dollars ($3trn) that provide a buffer for any debt collapses.
But other ‘emerging’ economies are not so well placed. Dollar and euro debt now tops $8trn in these countries or 15% on average of all debt. Argentina’s debt is over 60% owned by foreigners, while Turkey has seen one of the biggest rises in external debt since the end of the Great Recession in 2009.
As interest rates rise on this debt, servicing it has become more difficult. According to the IIF, ‘stressed’ firms now account for more than 20% of corporate assets in Brazil, India and Turkey and those companies where profits are greater than interest costs are shrinking fast. “Even with low global rates, many non-financial corporates are running into trouble with debt service,” the IIF added. In Argentina, interest rates for smaller companies have moved above 15%. “Companies have burned through their working capital since then as they can’t get rational financing,” he said. “Big corporates with access to international financing are in a better position, but medium and small companies are in trouble.”, said one analyst.
The rate hikes here have triggered capital exodus there. This dimension adds to the political.
3
@Enri
Very interesting and relevant (fact-based) financial analysis. Would like to see more of this caliber comment on this page...
I detest Trump for what he's doing to America but America is still a democracy that happens to go through a kakocracy phase. But I abhor Erdogan for he is doing to Turkey. Turkey right now fully qualifies as a kakocracy!
Turkey is the artwork of Ataturk, and what a great man he was. Because of Ataturk Turkish women voted before French women could, to mentioned just one of his unparalleled revolutionary reforms that took the remnants of a moribund former empire and forged a country, a remarkable country.
Erdogan is set do destroy Ataturk's reform. Turkey will suffer. Still, a majority of Turks love him and hoot for their man just like a minority of ill informed Americans hoot for their despot, Trump!
If Trump can bring Erdogan down, it would go in history as one of his greatest achievement, not because he knew the historical narrative - far from it - but because out of this battle of the two despots one is vanquished; therefore one less to go!
I hope Turkey will overcome this deranged leader who suffers a sultan syndrome, will correct its present and dangerous course and keep working on democracy as the founding father Ataturk intended!
35
@Nicholas
That's not how political change works.
Remember how we told ourselves the exact same thing in order to start a war in Iraq? The idea was that if only we could bring down dictator Saddam Hussein, all would be good.
In real life, dictatorships structure an entire society. Take out the person at the helmet, and another will take his place, EVEN years after the Constitution itself might have changed.
So if Trump would "bring Erdogan down", he would only add more chaos to an already chaotic and dangerous situation.
What we need is American leadership knowing how to work with dictatorships "in depth", so that we can create the civil society needed for a peaceful revolution and transition. That takes brains, effort, time, patience, and lots of knowledge. All things that Trump is utterly lacking ...
18
@Nicholas It is incredible that the first U.S.president to put branches in the spokes of an aspiring dictators wheels, your country whose future is a stake, is qualified and critical of, by your comment? Say what!
1
There was no chance that Turkey would ever become part of the EU. It was not a mistake, as the Times asserts to keep Turkey away from Europe. Turkey would not recognize Cyprus, an E..U member state and either would sh withdraw its illegal occupation troops from that island. The only way that Turkey would have joined is by shaping the E.U. in its image. Not being shaped by the E.U.
The Times' assertion that Turkey is more tethered to Europe, than Poland and Hungary is a huge error in judgement. Turkey's civil society was kept in line by the army. Once the army was weakened, the true soul of the nation asserted itself. And that soul has nothing in common with Europe. Poland and Hungary's illiberalism is mild, compared to what Turkey practices. Those two countries are and have been part of Europe for millinia. Turkey has been an adversary, an outsider and a despoiler of Europe. Hostage taking, as in Pastor Brunson is part and parcel of Turkey's legacy. Hatred of minorities has been practiced for hundreds of years. Evidence of that is the total anaihilation of the Greek and Armenian communities
88
NYT editorial board opinion summarizes the facts very well, especially in addressing Erdogan's OpEd.
The OpEd is in fact completely in line with Erdogan's (and AKP) anti-west propaganda. The propaganda escalated especially after 15 July coup attempt, which ended up Erdogan's counter coup gradually taking over the state with all its institutions.
Erdogan famously said at the night of the coup that "The coup is a God's blessing". Erdogan happily shared power with Gulenists many years until he felt threatened and his corruption network was uncovered.
At the end, it is liberal democracy vs Islam.
1
As far as I am concerned, Turkey's recent actions and attitudes do nothing but confirm its thorough unsuitability to ever belong to the Euroepan Union.
I shall never forget video coverage of Erdogan's visit to Washington DC in 2017, accompanied by the dictator's entourage of thugs and goons who savagely attacked peaceful demonstrators with total impunity.
It is as if everything Kemalist about the Turkish Republic were washed away, with an unabashed return to the violent ways of the Ottoman Empire.
Conclusion : only the deluded would ever feel that Turkey is part of Europe. It shares the values and tics of the perpetually troubled Middle East, brimming with bruised pride and a chronic fear of a complex and changing world screaming for basic human rights for women and religious minorities.
131
Sort of a white guys' take on Turkey? (sorry white gals)
The EU put obstacle after obstacle in the way of inclusion of Turkey. EU politicians essentially told Turkey it would not get membership, ever, no matter what it did.
Had instead the EU actually taken a realistic and inclusive approach to NATO member Turkey, how different might Mr. Erdogan's trajectory have been? (e.g., actual realization of the liberalization objectives he initially came to power on, and further enhancement of those liberalization tendencies)
Big what ifs, true. But as with Russia, when it came out of communism and all the US and Europe could do is expand NATO to Russia's doorstep, it is our (and European) policies, that drive people to extremes (and likely drive them mad).
When instead of treating countries and people as equals whom we need to sit at a table with and responsibly discuss with, we dictate and demand, we can expect nothing other than the response of nationalistic pride standing up to our arrogant demands and caricatures.
Turkey, Russia, Iran...the list really is fairly endless.
If there is shame, the shame is ours. Just our fake tanned, bordering on obese, Internet troll of a "leader" is so entirely clueless that he can't dictate to the world like he apparently does to his own family and family business.
And of course our media like the NYT now questioning whether Islam and liberal democracy can co-exist. Talk about the height of arrogance and condescension!!!!
17
@AJ Well, I humbly think you got this wrong. The issue is history, as was pointed out by above comments. Turkeys president is in fact, reading Joseph Stalins play book. He will use any medium, including religion, to implement absolute rule, obliterating Attaturks' remarkable vision. Every despot in history has met his or her demise; it is just a question of how messy it is going to be.
1
@AJ As I recall, Russia was offered a path to join NATO, and for a while things looked good (e.g. the merger of the US and Russian human spaceflight programs). What changed was that Puin came to power and with him, his cronies. Likewise, Erdogan has followed a similar trajectory. As we know, the paths of despots usually end in spectacular disaster, and nothing suggests that it will be different this time. Get ready for the worst.
1
@bongo
Your humility is well taken. "History" requires understanding the full scope of events, not starting at a time where the outcome already is determined by preceding events. I suggest you look at the history of the EU's "dialog" with Turkey and the actual events with regard to EU / Turkey (and US / Turkey) relations subsequent to Erdogan coming to power (and of course in the years preceding as well- not till the start of time, but do go back a few decades).
As an aside, it was an editorial mistake not to put a comments thread immediately on Erdogan’s op-ed in the Times – but sensible to finally attach one. Not that Erdogan will read them, but if there are a sufficient number of serious responses, he may have a flunky synthesize their major messages, it’s just conceivable that he could obtain a sense of why support is building for Trump’s response to Brunson’s incarceration, and it might subliminally affect his behavior. His argument that we’re unreasonably asking him to intrude in the “judicial process” (despite his insistence that Trump do just that here in the matter of a requested extradition of Fethullah Gulen) is hilarious in light of his absolute dominance of EVERY Turkish institution. His was a petulant rant.
But Americans have apparently twigged to the fact that we may despise Putin but at least we understand him; while there can be no basic understanding of Islamist strongmen: they simply lack enough of a shared body of basic convictions about governance for us to develop such an understanding. We can treat them with the minimum respect required of sovereignty, but we have no business allying ourselves with them – except, as in the case of some of the Middle Eastern Sunni powers, such as Saudi Arabia, in which we conclude that we have an interest in pretending that the enemy of my enemies is my friend.
Clearly, the convictions that supported Ataturk are quite dead. I was in Turkey in 2003 when Erdogan …
… assumed power, and the edgy concern by the people then was his support of obligatory head coverings for women. I concluded then that this was just the beginning, and that it might take a while but that ultimately and sadly the West would lose Turkey as it became, inevitably, more insistently Islamist.
Mr. Erdogan certainly is free to pursue his “alternatives”, and see how far he gets before he is played by Putin. Perhaps enslaved by Putin. He would be more intelligent to accept that his Islamist core is fundamentally opposed to Western convictions and even interests and recognize that for him to co-exist with us while partaking of advantages that accrue to being an ally he must find ways to balance interests, not to complain that those who disagree with him on basic matters are meanies.
3
@Richard Luettgen While I support your position, I question the statement, "... his support of obligatory head coverings for women." At least from the outside, the message was that he opposed the long-standing Kemalist BAN on headscarves in certain public places (e.g. Parliament). I would be interested in a clarification from someone who was there at the time.
@czarnajama
I was there at the time, but I don't claim to be an expert on the nuances of Turkish political angst. However, my memory is clear that he supported obligatory head-coverings for women, even though he agitated at the time for merely lifting the ban. His support was enough to stir my own angst about the sustainability of a Turkish alliance with the West.
Turkey needs our money. No way are they going to cut us off
2
@NYC Dweller foreign investment in turkey has been big until recently. Many investors have pulled out once the interest rates started to rise. Once QE ended the flow of money to companies of low productivity in countries like Turkey started to reverse. Shaky investments to begin with. Brazil, Argentina, India, South Africa, and other emerging economies have many zombie companies that may go under the pressure to serve their debt.
1
It's the funniest thing. Reading this editorial, I got a real impression that the Editorial Board thinks that U. S. policy in this matter is totally correct, and that Turkey is becoming a clear and present danger to stability in the Middle East, yet nowhere can I find in it as much as one word of praise, or even just attribution, of President Trump's leadership here. It does seem as if the Times will not give credit to Mr. Trump even when they believe he is doing the right thing, but will come down on him like the proverbial ton of bricks if ever he veers even slightly from any course of which they approve. Is this good journalism, fair journalism, even just plain journalism? William Randolph Hearst would probably answer affirmatively.
6
@Joe Pearce Like the broken clock that's correct twice per day, Trump occasionally seems to do something correct and smart. But it's not the start of a learning curve. It's been quite clear that Trump has an affinity for undemocratic strongmen, like Duterte (not to mention Putin.) In this particular case, it's likely Trump is catering to the urges of his evangelical fan base, who want Pastor Brunson released. Likely we are also witnessing a collision between 2 grossly over-inflated and overly-tender egos.
9
"the question of whether Islamist values can coexist with democracy"
Facepalm.
3
"Hungary and Poland, now on their own authoritarian trajectories, have proved that European Union membership doesn’t ensure democratic liberalism." The EU is NOT democratic to begin with. It has five presidents [!] none of whom is elected. Supposedly sovereign countries are forced to follow dictates from unelected bureaucrats. Brexit was noteworthy simply for the fact an EU country was able to allow a referendum which was actually recognised and respected. As long as the EU is held up by those on the other side of the world as a paradigm of those values that were fought for so often in the 20th century, Americans will never understand the real issues surrounding countries they think they recognise but do not understand.
3
Erdogan has not yet figured out what many of trump’s domestic opponents have ruefully discovered; a person is useful to trump only until not useful to his grasp on illegitimate power.
.
If you do not genuflect to the world’s new Bully King, he will not hesitate to destroy everything.
3
@Koobface The Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia is following a similar trajectory ...
1
As an American and long-term resident of Turkey, I would like to ask, among many things, how the editorial board could write and post something so steeped in ideological bias-- a bias which has caused the truth to suffer under a shroud of political rhetoric.
First, I would like to ask in what way the AKP is especially Islamist? If being allowed to attend school, work for the government or in the wider private sector while wearing a hijab -- which was illegal before and during early parts of Erdogan's political career (my sisters in law were forced to get all their education remotely and have only started their Masters in public universities this past year)-- is Islamist and not humanitarian, then why are we complaining? Or would we prefer the days of Atatürk and his ideological break-off parties? No learning Quran, no public expression of religion (people were executed for wearing religious garb), no personal freedom. In fact, political freedom has lead to social freedom, allowing people in religious communities to practice OR not. And for those who want to believe this is a matter of religion and not general freedom, just look to the Kurds living in Turkey. Under the governmental extensions of Kemalist ideology-the principles of Kemal Atatürk- it was virtually illegal to speak Kurdish, to demonstrate Kurdish identity in public in anyway. While racism remains an issue in Turkey, true status of ethnic Kurds as citizens has become socially accepted and politically reflected.
7
@KylieNur
Well....evidently the AKP view of 'Kemalist' society, prior to the current self proclaimed Sultan, has been successful. The view that the Kurds were oppressed culturally before, while no mention of current armed suppression, is evidence that the commentator is not a reliable witness. "Political freedom=social freedom.."?
All hail the second coming of Suleiman the Magnificent!
2
Democracy in Turkey was never really sustainable. Islamic values are really not compatible with democracy.
8
@notme The marriage of ANY religion with state authority is not compatible with democracy. The American founding fathers understood this. That is why the very first amendment to the Constitution states that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."
And as long as we're on this subject, it's worth mentioning that in this country the GOP has assiduously worked at undermining this foundation of civic comity, for decades.
6
Perhaps Trump could correct the oversight of the Allies of World War I who neglected in 1919 to confine Turkey to Asia Minor, to the East of Bosphorus, but at the same time keeping the Russians from their old dream of seizing Constantinople and renaming it Tsargrad.
3
Well, can we count this as a successful negotiation by our very intelligent President? A "hostile" negotiation?
2
I’m no Trump defender, but Erdogan’s op-ed in the paper is polarizing. Trump’s actions might incite more problems, but why not in this case? According to Erdogan, he and his government have done nothing wrong. The US is to blame for everything. This is the language of a tyrant. Erdogan has kept power by silencing critics. That is all we need to know about him.
3
If this friction with Turkey were about defending Democracy against an authoritarian, nationalist dictator who tramples on minorities in his country, jails teachers and journalists, and supports terrorism (e.g., Hamas, Iran, etc), I would be all for it.
However, since the US can no longer be taken seriously as a defender of Democracy, I am not sure what this friction with Turkey is really about. It would seem that Erdogan and Trump are twins.
19
This editorial was too lenient in its assessment of Turkish behavior.
The essay properly noted that Turkey is a member of Nato. However, Greece is a member of Nato too. The Turks have a long history of aggression toward Greece and all too often Washington, prizing its relaionship with the Turkish military, has spurned Greece and permitted Turkish aggression. (Consider Turkey's unprovoked military action against Cyprus in 1974).
Of course, 1974 is a long time ago. But Turkey has done something infinitely more outrageous in the recent past which should enrage everyone who condemns terrorism:
This paper reported (But this editorial omits mention of) Turkey' purchase of oil from Isis. A few years ago, ISIS was in possession of oil wells and they monetized this oil by selling it to Turkey. I hate to use cliches, but when I think of Turkey, and another state with a fascistic theocratic bent, Saudi Arabia, I can only say that with friends like these who needs enemies.
25
First off, the attacks on Cyprus were not unprovoked. Greeks were performing hate crimes on Turks for years before the military stepped in because of a major decline in the Turkish population.
I agree that Turkey has turned into a more authoritarian government recently, but this has not always been the case. Until Turkey’s last referendum regarding a change in the Presidential system, which came after the failed coup, which there is strong evidence was staged, Turkey had a stronger democracy than many countries in the EU.
I cannot help but seeing similarities between Trump’s rise to power, and Erdogan’s. Erdogan was also made fun of constantly, and never taken seriously on the world stage. Erdogan too was criticized for not being qualified for the position. He was also criticized about his secularist and nationalist policies that isolated the nation from other countries and went against Ataturk’s (founding father’s) values (like Trump). After Erdogan’s first election people thought that it was an outlying situation and he would never even get close again. After he got elected the second time, his policies began troubling those who normally were not into politics. And by his third victory, it was too late. He had already made himself an authoritarian dictator. After the last election, where there were busses full of uncounted votes, (recorded via phone) many people had given up to the idea that Turkey would remain a democracy under the Erdogan regime.
11
@David Gottfried
Unprovoked military action in 1974? Learn some Cyprus history my friend. After Greek nationalist made a coup in Cyprus to tie the island to Greece which was against the London treaty signed in 1959 that formed Cyprus government with Greek president and Turkish vice president, (I am not even talking about the year long massacres committed by Greek patriots in the island against Turkish minority), Turkey decided to invade the Northern part of the island to save the Turks from another massacre. And since that they there is peace in the island.
I write this to correct your mistake. Otherwise, Erdogan deserves the worst and I hope Turkish people will get what they sowed in the last 16 years.
8
@Asia Mackinara
"First off, the attacks on Cyprus were not unprovoked. Greeks were performing hate crimes on Turks for years before the military stepped in because of a major decline in the Turkish population"
This is totally untrue. It is Turkish propaganda. The opposite was always true. The Turks were always killing and harassing Christian minorities (or majorities), Turks are a minority in Cyprus while they want to co-rule the island.
2
This is how Erdogan sells his people on the failure of Democracy and the need for authoritarianism.
Iran style. Coalesce against an "enemy".
How convenient.
1
Well, I'm sad to see that this entire, lengthy editorial failed to name that thing which is Erdogan's driving force, and has been through his political career: Islamism or political Islam (although one often reads that it is not legitimate to separate Islam into religious and "political" parts because it constitutes a unified field of faith and personal and societal behavior).
The destruction of "secularism" (by which one means liberal democracy, genuine civil rights, freedom of speech, press, and assembly, the liberation of women, tolerance of minorities, the rule of law, and more) in Turkey and its replacement by a diametrically-opposed society based on the Islamist goals of Erdogan and his supporters--while recreating some of the power and glory of the Ottoman Empire as a revanchist byproduct--has now been almost accomplished, successfully.
I can't believe Trump cares about any of this. I have a sinking feeling that Putin is pulling his strings in order to wreck whatever semblance of a cooperative relationship could still exist between the United States and Erdogan's clerico-fascist autocracy.
6
"It has been a strategic mistake for the union not to integrate Turkey firmly into its orbit."
There go the Americans again. Demanding that the EU accept autocratic regimes into the EU because it suits their strategic purposes. Letting Poland, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria into the EU - also done because of American pressure - has been little short of a disaster. Autocratic regimes revert to autocracy, despite EU membership. The US should begin to reflect whether it is in their strategic interest to fill the EU with these enemies of liberal democracy.
23
@abo, the EU chose to admit these countries into their union hoping they would become liberal democracies but who then became autocratic or wannabe autocratic.
The EU can also play hardball, stop giving these autocrats EU money, close the borders and threaten to withdraw their companies and banking. No more indulging them. Do you think Poland and Hungary want to be back in the Soviet, I mean Russian influence.
If they don't feel the pinch from the lack of cash and their citizens sending home money by working in other countries they might just rethink their future.
If not, cut them loose. Putin might feel happy but he cannot afford to fund all these countries. Russia is already a basket case with a restive citizenry and besides he wants to keep his money...
5
@abo
I fully agree. The Eastern European countries cited have no deepset democratic traditions, just as reticent and skittish of modernity and progress as their fellow Oriental despots in Ankara. The Tatar yoke cast a long shadow in that backward part of the world.
3
@abo, the EU is not a child, and certainly not America's child. They took these former Warsaw Pact countries for reasons of economic self-interest and long-term security. The heartburn of these member states' short-term retrenchment pales in comparison to the Russian cancer that lies to their east.
The challenge is demographic. In another 15-20 years, the people steeped in autocratic soviet communism will be gone, replaced by youngsters who share Europe's liberal values. In the meantime. the EU needs to flex its economic muscle to bring the autocrats back in line. Russia has no money, and thus very little to fight back with.
1
Trump's relentlessly juvenile approach to dealing with other nations may well have been Saudi Arabia's model in trying to strong arm Canada this past week after our Minister of Foreign Affairs, Chrystia Freeland, very properly raised the question of the ongoing mistreatment and imprisonment of human rights activists in the kingdom. Instead of a measure thoughtful response the Saudis immediately expelled our ambassador and hundreds upon hundreds of Saudis in Canadian universities have been instructed to return home by the end of the month despite the very real damage this will do to their immediate and future prospects. Another example among numberless examples of how Trump equals pain and suffering for everyone but Trump.
31
@Leigh Erdogan in many aspects is similar to Trump
The US has a long history of treating others, large, or small, as Inferior. And not everybody takes it lying down.
As for Turkey, Putin must be smiling, as things are unfolding exactly the way he apparently and very craftily planned.
Sanctions? What sanctions?
First comes Turkey; shortly after Greece and Cyprus. And don’t write off Italy either.
And if all this comes together, there goes NATO’s access to the Mediterranean.
Mark my words.
6
@waldo
Maybe some of them really are inferior.
1
I remember in the hours during the coup against Erdogan, American TV punditry was openly rooting for Erdogan's ouster in favor of the elite. And so it continues...
9
It's strange that both Erdogan and Trump are close to Putin and court his favor. Erdogan's current threat of turning to other countries in place of the United States clearly refers to Russia. No doubt with sanctions ratcheted up on both Russia and Turkey by the USA, they nurse a common resentment. But the current US sanctions on metals imports from Turkey are just the trigger - the country is over-borrowed and its governance problems are serious, as Erdogan has hammered into the ground any institution with any claim to autonomy.
1
The US's appeasement of autocratic regimes such as Turkey is reaching it's end game - it will not end in peace and harmony.
The tinder box lit with the 9/11 attack had been dried and primed for years. It was the event that sparked the on going battles in Iraq and Afghanistan, which are but mere preludes to a greater conflagration. Soon, all of the Muslim world - from the north of Africa, through the Middle East and up through central Asia - will be in a state of incendiary war and chaos. That includes the tyrannical oil states of Saudi Arabia and Iran.
We, as Americans in our isolated splendor across the sea, having nothing to gain from our continued engagement with this 'caliphate' of dysfunctional, medieval backwardness. Let them burn in the fires of their own making. Unlike the phoenix, they will not be rising up from their own ashes.
3
Erdogan and his party, AKP is to a great extent the creation of the American foreign policy making establishment who believed that there could be something called “moderate” Islam. And through a series of favorable deals and financial support they made him a viable and in due time a dominant political movement idea. That the faith could be molded into a political doctrine and an economic system that would respect separation of powers, separation of religion and state, respect for the rights of individual citizen through the supervision and guidance of US and EU “experts” was a wild fantasy and it has backfired big time. And Ataturk’s vision of building western style institutions for governance and leaving faith as a matter of individual choice to be practiced in private free from and independent of any government interference (regardless of whether it is bottom up or top down) still remains the only viable path to bringing the East and West closer. That should have been the focal point of US diplomacy in facilitating democracy and human rights in predominantly muslim countries.
6
The attack on American citizens outside the Turkish Embassy , after a nod from Erdogan to his bodyguards, on May 16, 2017 is all the evidence needed to see the governing methods of his regime. Claims that all are against him, and since he considers himself l'état, and after him, le déluge, all methods are permissible to attain his ends. No editorials in Western newspapers can cover his messianic delusion as to his place in history.
And read carefully comments here as some of his thugs escaped justice in Washington DC and know how to use a keyboard.
7
Erdogan and Trump, like two bullies, are engaged in a street fight. Unfortunately, the delusional dictator of Turkey does not seem to get that he's outmatched, and the Turkish economy, already completely mismanaged under Erdogan, is getting pushed over the brink as a result.
Unfortunately, 90% of the media in Turkey are under Erdogan's control--think Fox News every channel you turn to, so most people have a very distorted view of the events and blame everything on "external foes." This episode will not end well for Turkey, but unfortunately Erdogan will probably survive it.
7
Is Turkey an ally? I didn't know.
1
The risk of war that Turkey represents to NATO is significant. Violent conflict Turkey and any of its neighbors, Syria, Iraq, Iran, Armenia, Georgia, Bulgaria or Cyprus (the only EU member which is not a part of NATO) could cause Turkey to invoke article 5 of the NATO Treaty.
Are NATO members truly ready to defend Turkey from its regional neighbors? What happens if Turkey is the aggressor?
Is there much of a benefit in Turkey's armed forces defending Europe? Will they be truly welcomed?
Turkey is the most marginal member of NATO. In time of crisis it will be a burden on the alliance. It is now time to gently push Turkey out of NATO.
4
@W Wilson The greatest risk for war for NATO is the US.
2
For two hundred years, Russia has dreamed about controlling the Bosporus and the Dardanelles. Trump all but handed them over.
8
@Kassandra, pretty sure Russian and Turkish ties with the US (and China's for that matter) were disintegrating rapidly under Obama, but believe what you will
@Alex The Russians and the Turks really dislike each other. They have fought 22 wars. What unites them right now is the hatred towards US. Erdogan believes that his coup was staged by USA and the Russia provided this evidence to him
Turkey's authoritarian regime, with Erdogan's abuse of power, and stripping the press from the ability to inform the public without interference, is a disgrace. So Turkey's allies are justified to show their teeth to Erdogan's despotic rule. The concern is that Erdogan will double-down it's relations with Russia, the latter more than happy to oblige, as it is intent in dividing the West, and NATO, to hide his own kleptocracy, by showing the weakness of liberal democracies, against his trampling of human rights and the rule of law. Not that Trump is a paragon of virtues, unless one considers narcissism to be one. In brief then, Turkey is not a friend of the West. That the EU refused to admit an anti-democratic thug as one of their own is entirely justified. Erdogan's resentment is just for show, to consolidate his grip on poor Turkey.
13
The United States, unfortunately, is in no position to instill our idea of democracy in another country. From what I can see, however disturbing the trend in Turkey is, Erdogan has the popular votes behind him, much like how the United State could have elected Trump.
After all, this country is making deals with far worse human rights violators like Saudi Arab, everyday.
Whatever spiral Turkey is in, it is by and large by the choice of its people. The NY Times is in no position to claim moral high ground here.
Let the pieces fall where they may.
5
While I share all the concerns regarding Erdogan's authoritarianism, as well as paranoia, I do think your last comment about Islamism is a bit of a cheap shot. What we are looking at is a pugnacious megalomaniac promoting nationalism through neo Ottoman nostalgia, Attaturkist cult of personality and the usual conflation of dissent with terrorism. None of thrse tools of oppression need to be conflated with Islamism as such. Secularism can be equally oppressive. Some of the islamic revival in Turkey has been healthy. But much more should have been said about the 150,000 affilated with Mr Gulen who find themselves blacklisted and unable to work, not to mention over 50,000 in prison. The Times has called Gulen an islamist too, though his version is profoundly humanistic. The terminology of "islamism" is not helpful when there are multiple causative factors.
30
The administration is trying to rescue an American wrongly imprisoned in Turkey? This should be getting more positive press.
This is not a "vital bilateral relationship" anymore. Please note that during the coup, Turkey turned the electricity to Incirlik off and American planes could not take off.
Erdogan is turning towards Russia. It is not just a threat, it is a deal.
We need to get our nukes out of Incirlik. Lets try the Kurds for an ally. Move the base to Syrian Kurdistan. The Kurds have been our faithful ally, yet we ally Turkey to attack them with impunity.
Turkey no longer belongs in NATO, which it joined as a liberal secular democracy. There is no such thing as a Muslim democracy. Turkey has long been a theocratic autocracy. It fits with Russia, not NATO, any more than the European union.
Turkey's demand for the extradition of Gulen is baseless and and absurd. The NYT should not be giving space to Erdogan's blatant lies.
Now he is holding an innocent American pastor hostage in hopes of getting Gulen. We can't let this happen. Maximum sanctions are in order.
And while we're at it let's free Turkish Kurdistan and unite it with Syrian Kurdistan. Instead of giving the Kurds to the Russians.
15
Trump is in almost all respects a disaster, but on this one he may be right. Erdogan has taken Brunson hostage, to try to force the U.S.to extradite Gulen. This is despicable, and indeed medieval.
The one thing which should be criticized about the administrations's handling of this is that they are focussing on Brunson as a Christian, when there are other Americans (Muslims) being held in Turkey in parallel circumstances. We need to hear more about them.
7
Trump is destroying Turkey monetarily to engender epic levels of hatred and desperation but STILL delivering F-35 fighter jets to Turkey, our most advanced fighter jets for air to ground combat.
That's not dangerous at all.
10
@common sense advocate, I think the article suggested that they have put that delivery on hold.
3
Alex from Sydney - thank you! The way the piece is laid out, it looked like a quick update that ended right before an inserted section "Related
More views on the United States’s relationship with Turkey"
Scrolling through the many inserts and ads, I saw the delay on F-35 delivery.
Thanks for pointing it out (and very nicely too).
1
It is doubtful that trying to destroy the Turkish economy will do anything but hasten Turkey's turn toward authoritarianism. These tarrifs are counter-productive in terms of getting Americans released and encouraging democracy in Turkey, but will also certainly harm the US economy.
It's fail fail.
14
Another proof that Trump is following Putin's orders. The NK "Trump's solution" is a fiasco, the international trade agreements do not seem to be "agreements" anymore for Trump; the United Nations, the World Trade Organization and the United Nations are believed to be obsolete and NATO is no more needed...Trade wars are easy to win and Putin is the best friend of the USA...Time to buy gold!
11
@yves rochette, just another unhinged Trump rant, really
Its very dissapointing to see NYT publish such an opinion piece. Let me start by saying that I am not a fan of Mr Erdogan at all but he is the democratically elected leader of Turkey. Everyone is concerned about the Islamist direction the country is taking. This is not new, its been in the making for a long time. The real threat to Turkey for the last 30 years has been Islamist Gulen and his dark organization. His followers infiltrated into every single corner of public and private organizations in Turkey during that time. They achieved this by bribing, blackmailing, killing and using any other means. At the end Islamist Gulen was able to control his followers who were supreme court judges, parlementers, teachers, police officers etc.
Can you take a moment and imagine how it would feel to live in a country like that? Please when you evaluate the current sotuation in Turkey keep this in mind.
Whatever the situation, first thing the western media should be talking about has to be Gulen and his Islamist silent army. But for obvious reasons, NYT and others dont.
8
This conspiracy theory sounds like it could have been written by Alex Jones. Never in the past 30 years has any credible evidence of so-called Gulen influence in Turkey.
I was surprised that the Times almost failed to mention any of the other Americans being held by Turkey on dubious grounds, and the peculiarity that Trump's concern appears to be only for one Christian activist. Is this our secular country? I wonder.
114
@Thomas Zaslavsky.....Agreed. After doing a little more research, however (and despite the general focus on the “pastor”), release of all Americans held in Turkey was apparently demanded, with Brunson’s release expedited, as he is apparently undergoing severe health problems...
2
@GL: Thank you for this useful information.
I still complain about the Times's failure to highlight the other prisoners.
1
Kemal Attaturk, after securing Turkey's victory at Gallipoli, went on the establish the modern progressive secular Turkish state in the shadow of the decrepit Ottoman Empire: he instituted political, economic, and social reforms, introduced a Latin-based alphabet, and granted universal suffrage (to women).
Mr. Erdogan, like Mr. Trump, has largely betrayed the democratic institutions his country was founded on. He is an authoritarian religious extremist who essentially neutralized the political power of the secular army when they opposed Abdullah Gul's - an Islamic extremist - run for the Turkish Presidency. And since then, he has been consolidating his authoritarian control, railing against the free press, jailing the opposition...sound familiar?
Now Mr. Trump has created yet another feud with an essential US strategic ally - along with other US allies - in an attempt to pander to his fundamentalist Christian evangelical base when he demands the release of an American fundamentalist Christian pastor held after the recent coup attempt.
Mr. Erdogan and Mr. Trump are two sides of the same coin.
66
And that coin is a wooden nickel?
I detect blatant religious prejudice in this editorial. Let me rewrite the last sentence:
Hungary's and Poland’s dispiriting recent history once again raises the question of whether Christian values can coexist with democracy ...
This is no joke. Both countries' authoritarians are vocally "Christian" and supported by Christian constituencies. I'm no admirer of any of these three governments, but which religion they use to strengthen their authority is immaterial.
170
@Thomas Zaslavsky Except that the big difference is that Turkey is one of (if not the) most liberal and democratic of the world's Muslim countries whereas Hungary and Poland are two of the least liberal and democratic of the world's countries.
In America, Christian discrimination against the LGBTQ community manifests itself in the refusal to bake a cake for a gay couple. In the Muslim world, homosexuality is a criminal act and in some places it's still punishable by death.
In America, women are paid less than men. In many Muslim countries they're lucky to even receive an education much less be able to work outside the home.
I'm no fan of religion in general (particularly when it makes it way into government), but the simple truth is that Islam in practice has been far worse for human rights than any other religion.
7
@Thomas Zaslavsky....Neither Poland, nor Hungary, have arrested and tortured dissidents (to the best of my knowledge), nor have they been engaging in genocide (as Erdogan has—for years—against the Kurds)...To even ATTEMPT to place either of those countries in the same category as Turkey is preposterous...
3
@Thomas Zaslavsky
Except that there are plenty of Christian influenced countries that are democratic. Please name any such Muslim countries.
1
I was stationed at Incirlik Air Base for five years, and I started with a very positive attitude. Unfortunately, what I observed is Turkey has a tendency to seriously over-play its leverage and create strong resentments. The vast majority of senior officers were glad to get away from the Turkish Air Force when their tour at Incirlik was up and they moved on to the next assignment. My personal experience was that dealing with the Turkish Air Force was like dealing with the mafia.
85
@Jeff L ... I think, The people should live independent and free in the world. You are citizen USA but, you worked for war in Turkey and blame to the Turkish people. You should for holiday to Turkey. You won't come for war. Present Trump continues attack to world. First started from Turkey. I worry for all in the world. I am always worried because of these leaders attitude so I don't happy live. What do you think ? Who is good ?
2
Whatever the end result of this frontal showdown between Turkey and the US, it will be a test to the vulnerability of the US to ransom tactics on the part of any of its allies. Right now, it is just the Evangelical votes being courted by the administration - as the Islamist votes are by Erdogan's. It is doubtful that they can find an agreement that will satisfy all the simmering grievances they are bringing in the open today, including an Op-Ed by Erdogan Himself, in these pages, where he seems to say that if he doesn't get satisfaction, he will look elsewhere for friendship. There you go: we have now and international crisis involving a NATO ally, in the heart of the troubled Middle-East. The main protagonists are especially known for their extremely unpleasant personalities and above all, their unpredictability. Trump's tweets might even outdo themselves in obscurity and vulgarity, while Erdogan gives free rein to his venomous eloquence. But it will also test Brotherly Love between two specific strands within the larger Christian and Muslim religious traditions.
5
This is just another diplomatic nightmare created by this Administration, specifically the State Department. Most of the spiraling down of relations between the two countries are on the shoulders of Trump and Tillerson. No doubt Erdogan is an autocrat, but he was elected by Turkish citizens and we should respect that.
Trump with his nationalistic mindset, and Tillerson following orders, gutted the Department of best of the best diplomats.
The unintended consequences of nonexistent diplomacy is what we're all seeing, and it is not just Turkey. The EU, NATO, Canada and Mexico, the Mideast, Palestine and Israel. The list goes on and on.
And unfortunately I don't see any light with the addition of Pompeo. He is too hardheaded and his views are to fixed. Diplomacy is the art of negotiations and compromise, not my way or the highway.
121
A documentary about contemporary Turkey, produced by the BBC, revealed many everyday Turks look favourably upon Erdogan as their standard of living has improved. What was once a very rural nation is now more urban, and under Erdogan people who once lived in what most in the West would regard as material poverty now have washing machines, refrigerators, microwaves, smart tvs and so forth.
Thousands of refugees have flooded Turkey from war-torn countries on its borders and many of those immigrants are impressed with the care they have been shown in refugee camps created by order of Erdogan and are learning the Turkish language so they can either become Turkish citizens or study in Tukey and then return home once war is over. Erdogan treats these refugees well as they might vote for him in future.
24
@Scott
He also held back refugees from invading Europe under an agreement with Merkle. Refugees have had an impact turning E.U. countries to right wing parties and dictators.
Much like U.S. under Trump.
2
While President Erdogan has never worn the Western suit of democracy that Presidents George W. Bush and Barack Obama measured for him, the complete unworthiness and ineptitude of Donald Trump as their successor and his seeming thrall to Vladimir Putin has done much to sever the fraying cords that keep America’s light on in the world’s worst volatile political and military location.
Any fool can see the two-fold values to Putin of Turkey’s financial destabilization. First, the presence of American fighting forces there imperils not only them—but to Putin’s delight—the NATO alliance that America took so long to laboriously construct and maintain. With Poland, another shaky NATO participant wavering under the increasingly nationalist movement now snaking through Europe (much to Donald Trump’s glee), the “American carnage,” with which Trump took office, is slowly spreading its stain around the globe.
The second occasion for Putin’s joy is that a nation to his south looks like having its currency devalued to the point that its money is no good anywhere. Just how Erdogan can maintain his huge military without ready cash or credit is hard to fathom.
Trump’s throwing red meat to his evangelical base with his advocacy of Pastor Brunson. He hasn’t the measure of a true statesman to realize that he’s using partisan politics to leverage an international situation that far exceeds his ability to effect a favorable outcome.
To Trump, it’s all a game. Turkey loses. And Russia wins.
184
Evangelical Christians represent a substantial part of Trump's base. This is just the latest policy to keep their support. If it topples Erdogan, that will be an unintended bonus. But don't for a minute think it's anything other than a domestic calculation to help in the November mid-term election.
45
Mr.Erdogan has been provocative and implacable in his dealings with the US and NATO and the Kurds.There is every reason to be angry with his anti-democratic behavior.However, the lack of diplomatic effort in Washington is making a bad situation worse.Mr.Pompeo is busy in North Korea and is not expending every diplomatic effort.Tresury Department and Commerce are not serious about this challenge.Everyone needs to tell Mr Trump that Erdogan will not be bullied so stop "tweeting" immediately.This is a diplomatic crisis- where are the wise heads.
21
Just who is trump working for? Maybe himself - very likely, Russia very very likely because they who holds his money strings but the America people no way. It it looks like a rat, if it smells like a rat it ain't no mouse.
45
The Times minimizes Mr. Trumps bullying of Turkey and trying to force it to a humiliating surrender on the economic front. That will not work. We know with all authoritarians (ours and theirs), a little flattery goes a long way. Diplomacy is the best way to stem this crisis, a cause long lost to the current American administration.
49
Turkey has been a bubble economy for a while, living on borrowed money and borrowed time. The sooner the charade ends, the less international investors will eventually lose. If it takes Erdogan down with it, it is just bonus.
62
@Rahul
It will take down the people, not Erdogan. Stop wishing ill on people living thousands of miles away from you.
6
@Caio
Spare a thought for those Erdogan has locked up in his prisons on trumped up charges. Spare a thought for Turkish minorities like the Kurds against whom Erdogan is committing genocide. Turkey does not deserve to sit among countries playing by the rules under Erdogan. Bubbles eventually burst so the fate of the people was sealed a long time back.
Turkey may have a larger economy than Hungary and Poland combined, but to claim that it has "longer, deeper ties to NATO and the West" is completely misleading. Sure, longer ties to NATO because of Soviet dominion over Hungary and Poland, but longer "ties to the West"? Hungary has been tied to the West since the Ottoman Empire (Turkey writ large) overran it. Poland has been part of the Baltic Zone for thousands of years.
Turkey is an Asian country, except for the accident lying next to Greece. It has never ever really been part of the West, but part of the East.
73
@frugalfish
I agree with your first sentence but the rest are not as good.
Hungary was not tied to the west since it was overrun by the Ottoman Empire. It was tied to the west after Austrian took it over from the Ottomans.
As for Poland, it has not existed for "thousands of years"; one can argue for about 1000 years and that's it.
Finally, there has only been a "Turkey" for about 100 years, Before that for a few hundred years it was the center of the Ottoman Empire, which stretched through Europe, Asia, and Africa and was often in conflict with European countries. Before that it was the center of the Byzantine Empire, the part of the Roman Empire that survived the "fall of Rome" in the 5th century and continued Roman civilization for 1000 years. It was closely connected with the West, including close relations with Venice and Genoa; it's not the Byzantines' fault that our typical histories practically ignore them.
26
@frugalfish Is it good or bad Turkey being an asian country sir?
2
"Ataturk imposed democracy from above, focusing on the elite, as opposed to cultivating it organically, from the citizenry up."
It implicitly assumes that had Ataturk cultivated democracy from the citizenry up democracy in Turkey may have taken root and prospered.
Then of course your editorial answered that question later on.
"Turkey’s dispiriting recent history once again raises the question of whether Islamist values can coexist with democracy — not just democracy as manifested in elections but liberal democracy, with its core values of equality and freedom of the press, speech and religion."
Yes logically they may not follow because had Ataturk cultivated democracy from the citizenry up Turkey may not have the "dispiriting recent history" but you asked the question whether "Islamist values can coexist with democracy"? That in itself negated the citizenry up issue.
12