The last paragraph clearly points out the obvious - in combat, it is hard to distinguish a soldier's gender. "The 38 men and one woman of Third Platoon were quickly indistinguishable, a kaleidoscope of green camouflage, tan bulletproof vests and black masks."
3
But, only after the standards for passing the physical were changed. I think women should be able to serve in the military. But, our enemies don't have diversity in their ground combat units. Until we deploy all robots, it is going to be physical. Ask yourself - why are there no defensive linemen in the NFL who are women?
14
"Wearing her hair in either a bun or a low braid, Lieutenant Hierl alternated with Sergeant Rodriguez in running Third Platoon through the training. " Do tell me about Sgt Rodriquez's hair, please?
32
I could start by mentioning that Thomas Gibbons-Neff looks like a young Tom Cruise, but that is not really relevant, is it? In the same vein, mention of how Lieutenant Hierl wears her hair seems out of place in this context.
Having said that, this article is exactly the sort of read with which I like to start my day. We come into this life with our own unique set of drives and ambitions, what else is the American dream about but the freedom to pursue our greatest aspirations. Hurrah!
49
In my 20 years as an infantry officer, I met only one female officer who was physically capable of competing with equally fit male officers. Of course, physical fitness is only half of the qualities required for an infantry officer in combat. This officer, a West Point graduate, was capable on all counts. Since the 1980’s, more qualified women have sought positions in combat arms and seemingly performed as well as their male peers. Perhaps their number will increase in the future as it has in recent years. It certainly requires above normal dedication and training for a female to meet the physical requirements and overcome the ingrained hostility of many male officers, NCO’s and servicemen.
11
And she also defines beauty, never mind soldiering can be a brutal profession
The main concern, the most important issue in any military unit is to be mission ready. All have to be on the same page, all are required to be able,....apparently this Lieutenant made the cut. You can bet the Marine Corps will not sacrifice mission readiness for gender "equality".
Semper Fi
4
@Josh J. Porte
They alread did by lowering the standards for her and everyone else:
https://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/your-marine-corps/2018/02/07/passi...
7
Sounds like someone who had some goals.
Sounds like someone who worked hard to achieve them.
Sounds like someone who loves her country.
Sounds like a Marine officer.
Works for me.
22
The USMC has dropped the standards. They no longer require anyone to pass the Combat Endurance Test nor is anyone made to complete all the forced marches. Add in that the USMC made pull ups an alternative on their PT test and she isn’t proving anyone wrong, she’s proving opponents of the idea to be correct. When you drop standards for everyone in order for one group to succeed all you are doing is setting everyone up for failure, not success.
This isn’t a McDonalds or any other civilian job, it’s about combat in the end. This is a life & death job. If the commentators cared at all about their sons and daughters they would demand high standards for everyone.
What most do of the comments seem to support is that lowering standards is fine, that equality of outcomes is more important than equality of opportunity and that diversity is more important than merit. Of course war has a funny way of making all of that irrelevant, but why let that get in the way of such progressive thinking?
Why not maintain high standards for all? Let the chips fall where they may? Why? Because it’s not going to be the writers at the times sons & daughters serving. It most likely won’t be the majority of the commentators sons & daughters serving. So, as long as it’s someone else’s kids it’s fine to set them up for failure and emphasize everything but merit in a job that is about close combat.
16
The US military being all volunteer absolutely needs female recruits(15%) at the moment. Promotion is heavily dependent on combat experience in the infantry so there is pressure to give women a chance and if lowering standards is the only way, so be it. But here is a thought experiment. Can you imagine an all male Marine infantry corps? Of course you can. Can you imagine(really)an all female infantry corps? Can you imagine the thousands of Marines hitting the beach at Iwo Jima ( and suffering four thousand killed) as all female? Of course you can't. Certainly the Russians in WW2 had female battalions, mainly snipers. Women were good shots! But women in combat will remain a novelty and will require special treatment.
5
Still want to know why the marines discriminate against men in the PFT .Why do women have lower standards? Until 2017, male marines were required to perform pull-ups, and female Marines performed the flexed hang instead of the pull-up. The flexed hang was started with the chin above the pull-up bar. The timer was started and did not stop until the arms became fully extended. The Marine Corps had originally indicated that, as of January 1, 2014, female Marines would be required to perform a minimum of three pull-ups in order to pass the PFT. However, when more than half of female recruits were unable to meet this standard,the change was delayed. In 2017, the flexed-arm hang event was eliminated, and both male and female marines were given the choice to do either push-ups or pull-ups for this event.This is disgusting .Pull-ups are effective and should be mandatory.(This is besides the fact that the female req are far lower.)
11
OOH RAH, Lt. Hierl, for your strength, perseverance and commitment. There is nothing as challenging or rewarding as leading infantry Marines. IOC today is more demanding, physically and mentally, than any of us ancient 0302's faced. Ms. Keller's comment is correct, you earned every bit of the title "Platoon Commander."
To do so without hyperbole, focused on your job and your Marines, speaks volumes about your character. I am proud beyond words to have young people like you carrying on the honor and traditions of our Corps.
I am deeply sorry to have a Commander in Chief about whom the opposite is true but like all Marines, you will accomplish the mission and inspire others to follow. Semper fi, Lieutenant, and thank you very much.
26
Inserting females into the United States military is yet another attempt by the Left to weaken the defenses of the United States against external enemies. It sows dissension in the ranks and substantially reduces small unit cohesion. How many women fought at the Battle of Waterloo in 1815? How many fought at the Battle of the Somme in 1916? How many women carried arms in the first Gulf conflict? None. When will the lesson be learned? Women are a ghastly liability in battle.
5
Many women have fought bravely and successfully throughout history. Like during the ancient Mongolian imperial expansion under Genghis Khan. Sometimes disguised as men in order to do so like in the revolutionary and civil American wars. Anyone who thinks that today, women in service are a threat to unit cohesion does not have a complete understanding of global military history. Your argument is just an excuse to maintain a comfortable patriarchal status quo.
25
I have not read all the comments. However, I think that all women should share in the joys of being a rifleman. Why stop at officers? I think that this would be great, as long as they keep them segregated into their own units because we just do not have the maturity to leave sex out of our lives and all the distractions that it provides could be a problem. Realistically this would only serve to decrease the problems but it would help. I believe that part of combat survival, not only of yourself but of others, requires attention to the task at hand. People smoking dope in Viet Nam (I was a Marine rifleman there when I was eighteen) angered me because it put me at risk. Just personal opinion but. until we allow families and bordellos into the combat theater (not unheard of either) I am confident in my judgement.
Utilizing the principal of universal conscription we will have no difficulty in finding a sufficient number of women in proportion to population that they can share equally in all roles of our armed forces combat or otherwise. I think we should move to accomplish this as soon as possible. I would welcome the change.
5
@Kevin Phillips so segregate women because men aren't mature enough to keep it in they pants? You do realize that these immature boys are being tested with the defense of this country and our allies? I think you might want to rethink that reasoning because if they can't be trusted to behave then I don't want them holding a weapon
9
@Carol
Carol, how about we end quotas and ask them to meet the same standards?
https://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/your-marine-corps/2018/02/07/passi...
1
@Carol...Carol, do you think Kevin should rethink his reasoning regarding Universal Conscription? Why is it just immature boys who are required by law to be ready to defend this country and our allies? Could we be better defended if mature women were selectively chosen to serve?
3
Let's just get something clear. All these Army people saying the combat endurance test was removed are not telling the truth. The requirement to PASS the test was removed. The CET still happens but they do not wash out of IOC if they do not make it. Therein lies the difference in knowing what you're talking about and thinking you know. Women have been involved in combat even though they were not in combat roles. The wars in Afghanistan and Iraq highlighted this fact because women didn't serve as just nurses or admins. They were driving convoys and serving as envoys when dealing with natives. This is the reason the decision was made to allow them in combat roles because it only makes sense to train them to do what they are already going to encounter. Also, let's not forget, there a crapload of men who cannot make it infantry either. In the first IOC class which contained women, 28 dropped. Only four of them were women. In October 2014 the first three women PASSED the CET. Since then four more have and one of them is Lt Hierl. So leave off with the standards being changed so they could graduate women. They also weren't put through a conditioning program like the Army. It's time to let go of your preconceived notions about women and combat. Consider that women served as nurses in combat zones. Do you think they were cowering in a corner while artillery is going off? Do some research.
12
@Carol
No, let’s be clear that you are playing a game of semantics. If you no longer have to pass all the forced marches that’s lowering the standards. If you no longer have to pass the CET then that’s lowering the standards. If I’m the USMC PT test you can do push ups in place of pull ups and the USMC openly says they did this because so many women would fail otherwise then that is lowering standards. Integrity, it’s not for everyone.
7
I work in science, and most days I don't encounter any physical obstacles to doing what I want and need to do in my job.
Then there are those days that I have to make a choice.
Do I use my generally-considered-a-disadvantage smallness, in a way that allows me to do what I need to do, which almost always means NOT BRUTE FORCE, but leverage?
Or do I call in the guys, and watch in awe, but not envy, as they power through a task for me?
One physical standard for all military personnel makes sense.
That should never morph into a belief that only big = strong.
I've studied Tai-Chi, and my teachers were a married couple. A tall man and a women, who was less than 5 feet in height, and she could take him down.
Kudos to Lieutenant Hierl for all she has accomplished through her efforts!
She's proven that she either had, or acquired, every quality and skill that's necessary to successfully navigate the Marines Corps’ Infantry Officer Course, and now she's leading a platoon.
I hope Lieutenant Hierl's example encourages more young women to consider the military as a real choice for their future.
5
No problem with women anywhere provided,
regardless of where they are , regardless of duty assignment, they can perform every and all duties/assignments that a man in the same category/level of responsibility can perform.
6
@Richard Frauenglass but they can't. To accommodate the females, that's why the military has been finagling with standards for the past few years, such as the Marines dropping the extremely tough Combat Endurance Test, that at one time was required to pass before even qualifying for this school. Just as a simple example, during my 8 years in the Army, not once did I ever see a female that could have passed the male PT standards.
6
@Bud The Corps made the CET mandatory as pass/fail test in 2013 post announcement that women wouldn’t be integrated into combat MOSs. Previously the CET was an assessment not a graded event. It has since need dropped because ignore equal attrition rates (male and female) they have NOT changed any standards they did not have prior to the announcement by the DOD of integration. You should know all the facts before stating only part of the story.
Also as a fact this Lt passed the CET because it has as been dropped before she graduated. So she passed every single standard for every graduate regardless of gender.
2
@Bud oh! She actually did pass the CET, and it’s still required, and a ton of men didn’t make it. So there’s that.
1
Sounds simply lovely, but I do not believe a word of it.
1802/0302/TBS Instructor (1984-1988)/TF Ripper
USMC (Ret.)
5
@Packard that’s ok - those of us who have gone through with her know it’s real! You’ll be phased out soon enough.
8
@Packard then it’s probably a good thing you’re not in anymore.
10
Semper Fidelis, Marine.
4
This forced gender neutralization within the military is one of the main reasons recruiting is so terrible now. It simply isn't appealing any more to your average male who grew fantasizing about being Rambo and "playing war" with his neighborhood buds. The military SHOULD be a natural attractant to males. They want to be a part of that "Band of Brothers" and take out the enemy together. It's why SEAL units function so well. Most Guys don't want to be a part of a fighting force where female serve as a perpetual reminder that what they are doing isn't "special" anymore and that "it's so easy a girl can do it". It all goes against our most primal genetic instincts. And why it will be a disaster in the long run.
3
Why are these retired military types, most of who never seen combat so up in arms? Are they afraid their precious sausage fest is being disrupted? Perhaps they would be happier if they came out of the closet.
12
@Paulie Actually, most of the vets commenting. like myself have seen combat and served in the combat arms. The Marines dropped the Combat Endurance Test at the Infantry Officers' Platoon Leader Course and two months later we have two female grads. It's all a gigantic lie that is going to get a lot of kids killed one day.
6
Women deserve every opportunity to prove themselves everywhere, including the military.
They also, of course, must bear equal responsibility, which they cannot do as long as only our young men are required to register for the draft.
There's no draft now, but if any man currently fails to register, he faces not only legal repercussions, but also can be denied state and federal benefits and job opportunities. Should there be a draft, only men would currently be forced to serve and risk their lives.
Every military female I've ever spoken to about this issue agrees that women should be required along with men to register for the draft.
How can this gender-based inequity be allowed to continue?
5
@Jojojo
from other earlier commenters...
"The Marines ended the Combat Endurance Test at the Infantry Officer's Course because no women could pass the test and the course. What a surprise now we have women getting through the course. Drop the standards and your grandma will be a Marine Infantry Officer one day."
"... in the Marine Corps they are not held to the same standards, specifically on the Physical Fitness Test. For a male to obtain the max score he must be able to do 20 pull ups where a female is only required to do 7. That is not the same, or even close to the same. On the 3 mile run a male must be less than 18 minutes, a female less than 21. Again, not even close to the same thing. "
4
@Jojojo
Sshhh...don’t let your facts get in the way of their feelings!
@Alex
Here is another reason she “paved the way” and “proved them wrong.”-
https://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/your-marine-corps/2018/02/07/passi...
1
Well at least as an officer she can avoid the hard, daily physical jobs that grunts have. Filling sandbags, building bunkers, digging in, etc. Enlisted folks can't avoid those jobs.
Also being able to physically perform as well as her Marines is only a small part of being a Marine. Combat and death is what divides us. Can't imagine any women wanting to engage in infantry combat. Only about 2% of the males do. Not sure what will happen when they sweat everyday and see humans torn apart by decisions they make. Guess we will see.
1
The question isn't whether one woman - somewhere - has the skills to lead a Marine platoon but whether enough women exist - without adjusting standards - to make the exception the rule.
Almost certainly, there is a woman who can lead a rifle platoon (and this woman may be that person) but anyone with any degree of political sophistication knows that sooner or later pressure will be applied to the Marine Corps to adjust the standards to permit more women to become platoon leaders. Of course, one may dismiss my comments as sexist and alarmist, but history proves the accuracy of my prediction. If you doubt me, wait and see.
1
Look, let's face some stark facts here. The only reason she got through Marine Corps IOBC is because the Marines got rid of the grueling Combat Endurance Test that had been a staple at the Infantry Officers' Basic Course for 43 years. Why did the Marines get rid of the test - because no woman could pass it. This is just more feminist pomp and circumstance. The standards are being lowered across the military to propagate the fantasy that women can serve in the combat arms. And, yeah, I was in the combat arms in Iraq. Garryowen! Seventh First!
8
@R.W. CET was NOT a staple and hasn’t been removed, it was added post DOD announcement that women had to be integrated. Somehow this information is being left out of the media.
https://warontherocks.com/2014/05/can-women-be-infantry-marines/
2
If I hear one more time... that women don't belong in combat because they can't carry you like a linebacker can. 1) Most men can't carry you far either, only some and those few may not keep their head together 2) if the leader is a better strategist/smarter than the rest you won't have to be carried anywhere. Forget race and sex, stick with the smartest and highest performing officers to lead. Outsmarting obstacles will always save more lives than muscle.
17
My son was in Marine Officer Candidate School at the same time as Lt. Hierl. It is a very physically and psychologically demanding program.
If find this comment odd "That, Lance Corporal Segura said, showed that her physical ability was not in question — one of the many important, if sometimes peculiar, measuring sticks for a new officer."
Why is measuring an officer's physical ability peculiar? The Marines under their command respect an officer who is in as good shape as they are.
3
I am a retired Army Officer who served in combat arms. This woman is already leading from the rear, a place no successful platoon leader can lead from. This disastrous experiment to put women into ground combat arms jobs is going to get fine soldiers and Marines killed in the next combat. I wonder why these so called experts on the military have never called for women to be on the field with the NFL or NBA? Is it because they are not physically capable of being there? Yes and they are not physically capable of being in ground combat. But these military haters are not trying to destroy professional sports.
6
"I am a retired Army Officer ..."
What rank? And you shouldn't assume that Army tactics, techniques, and procedures are the same for the Marines.*
"This woman ..."
As "a retired Army Officer", you should know how to properly address another officer.
"... is already leading from the rear, ..."
As "a retired Army Officer", you should know the importance of paying attention and expressing yourself clearly.
Post a quote from the article or cite a photo showing that Lt. Hierl is "leading from the rear".
* For example:
"Tactically, the Army has two teams of nine-member squads. The Marines place 13 on each squad and move out with three teams."
Marine combat instructors share Infantry tactics
By Vince Little
April 4, 2012
www.army.mil
@Ret Army Officer
I am glad you are retired. Your line of thinking won't move our country forward.
9
@Ret Army Officer Not to mention that the Marines ended the Combat Endurance Test at their IOBC a few months before this woman 'graduated.' They ended the test because no woman could pass. This is a carbon copy of what is happening at Bragg now with the SFQC. Garryowen!
2
I thank Lieutenant Hierl, her platoon, and other members of the Marine Corps for their service protecting our country. I think the Marine Corps and our other services benefit from fairly giving ALL service members a fair opportunity to excel in any and all positions, without restrictions.
11
One superwoman does not mean that women should be in the infantry as a general rule.
6
@wes evans You notice that all women in the military services have to qualify under the same training regimen as males. If they can do it and have the necessary skills, why does their gender matter? What should matter is that the military goes with the best, regardless of gender.
5
@Janette A in the Marine Corps they are not held to the same standards, specifically on the Physical Fitness Test. For a male to obtain the max score he must be able to do 20 pull ups where a female is only required to do 7. That is not the same, or even close to the same. On the 3 mile run a male must be less than 18 minutes, a female less than 21. Again, not even close to the same thing.
3
@Janette A
The Marines ended the Combat Endurance Test at the Infantry Officer's Course because no women could pass the test and the course. What a surprise now we have women getting through the course. Drop the standards and your grandma will be a Marine Infantry Officer one day.
2
I am a feminist, but I admit to having had some trepidation and skepticism about women entering a few select fields, military combat being one. The position I have arrived at is that we have to let them have a fair (repeat: fair) chance to be successful. Women do not have on average as much upper body strength as men, a biological fact. (Of course, these are not average women.) More importantly, I believe we have found out that in some other formerly "controversial" fields, such as policing, adding females to the job mix unexpectedly brings some valuable skills and dynamics that improved overall performance. Will this be true in combat? Time will tell.
2
@MadelineConant I am in law enforcement. Many males officers will tell you that the female officers often can do better in domestic violence situations because they seem to better able to defuse tense situations than the males can.
2
@Janette A this is combat, not dealing with domestic violence situations. In combat, the fastest, strongest, most aggressive survive, and why this social experiment to neutralize gender in combat arms with be disastrous if we ever have to face a legit enemy that hasn't been distracted by frivolous PC garbage and meaningless social experiments.
2
The Feminist liberation ideology women would not be as violent, destructive, and warlike as men has been disproven by women like Lieutenant Hierl and Rep. McSally. Women have the same proclivity to kill as men, as well as the same response to nationalist authority.
I was one of two women in a Masters in Construction Engineering and management degree program in the top ranked Civil Engineering Program in the country. About 1/3 of the students were LT’s from the Army Corp of Engineers on active duty with the Army paying full time for them to get the degree. Plus they had their regular pay and per diem. They all lived with their families in nicer houses than the professors.
I was TA and selling blood to eat. The LT’s were frustrated by me because I got A’s in classes. I responded to them one day boys it is all a game, what did they not teach you that one at West Pt. This was in 82/83.
I was sent multiple letters from each branch of military service wanting to recruit me. I would send them back, why would I who out performed your current stock of males, join when I could not be considered for a combat position. As that was the only way to top leadership. So I would say when I could be a fighter pilot then maybe. That took another 10 years.
I clearly saw I was just as smart or smarter.
9
Israel has had women serving in combat since its inception with few if any issues beyond the occasional pregnancy. So to the Lieutenant I simply say,
Semper Fi Marine...
18
@DCreamer no. The women in the Israeli infantry serve in reserve units only. Meaning, they'll only be activated to help hold a line should every other option fail. If the US REALLY REALLY wants females ininfantry, it should be done like Israel. Male only units and female only units. As it is, you're gonna have Pvt. John Doe worrying more about getting Pvt. Jane Doe in his foxhole when a little downtime comes around, rather than watching his sector.
6
I have no skin in this game, but those making negative comments, how many of you even serve(d) in the Armed Forces?
Let women prove themselves. If they're better or equal to the training and qualifications, why shouldn't they serve?
Better yet, we really need smart officers and politicians with common sense who don't send our forces to fight in impossible wars like Afghanistan or Iraq.
114
Interesting evolution in societies perception of gender and danger.
200 years ago...what was the most dangerous and potentially lethal job in America?
Farmer? Miner? Sailor? Whaler? Marine?
Nope!!!!
It was being their MOTHER!
3
Congratulations to this outstanding Marine leader. I myself have gone through the process of becoming a Marine officer. It is not easy. Therefore, any woman who can do it has my great respect.
19
"Wearing her hair in either a bun or a low braid, Lieutenant Hierl alternated with Sergeant Rodriguez in running Third Platoon through the training."
Staff Sergeant is never shortened to Sergeant in the USMC. You should know this as a Marine Infantryman.
4
She’s our sister and deserves a lot of respect for making the journey and winning over her unit. Coed units didn’t score as high as all male units in previous Marine Corps tests. Was that because of males not being used to females, or because the women didn’t perform as well, who knows. It isn’t important now. The only thing that matters is how lethal the unit is when she actually experiences Marines dying for other Marines. Semper Fidelis is a way of life, so far so good. Get some!
3
If you have to NAME a woman to "prove" that women belong in the infantry, you have proved that they don't belong there.
A womb is a terrible thing to waste. A mother is too valuable a resource to squander. We have men for that. Men are expendable. Women are not.
4
If a womb can save the life’s of Americans on the battle field then I want that womb on the battle field.
Also thanks for reducing women to one single organ - a womb.
12
@Nemoknada
"A womb is a terrible thing to waste." Well, good thing women are more than just their wombs, then.
"Men are expendable." This is wrong and troubling on so many levels. No one is expendable.
14
@Nemoknada - as a childless woman, I am not lesser.
My husband is in the army. he too in not expendable.
People are not expendable.
We all have a purpose and place in life. One is not worth more or less than the other.
That is, to me , the whole point of this article and this specific woman's life goals.
17
That was essential....describe her normal hairdo...a braid or a bun, neither of which she wore in the photos. What were the hair styles of the men in the story, under her command?
9
Short.
Hair is one of the few official differences
2
I agree. Her hairstyle is completely irrelevant to anything.
4
@alice i kind of like to know how other women wear their hair in the field haha. Also - both were in the photos
I hope this country will honor Lieutenant Hierl and her fellow soldiers' commitment and investment by keeping them safe and not sending them into stupid, futile wars and dangerous situations.
9
I can't believe a country with 325 million people can't field a standing army without women.
Women in the army doesn't work, and it isn't right. The all volunteer army concept doesn't work either.
I don't mean any disrespect to the women of China Beach and those that have served this country. Why don't women play men's sports? Because they can't.
3
@Steve
What part of "Capt. Joshua J. Pena, a spokesman for the Marines’ Training and Education Command, said that the men and women attending the Infantry Officer Course are evaluated by the same standards and are provided an “equal opportunity to succeed.”" don't you understand?
16
@Steve, current Marine here. The finest young leaders of our generation earn the privilege to lead an infantry platoon, and now we've realized that those leaders span both genders.
There are almost 200,000 Marines and one female infantry platoon commander. I challenge you to do two things:
1. Ponder whether there has ever been one female in any sport who could have competed with, or surpassed, her male counterparts if given the chance. I suspect there have been many.
2. Attend and pass the Marine Corps' Infantry Officer Course before you comment on what is and isn't right in the world of infantry troop leadership. We're always looking for more honorable, courageous, committed leaders.
50
@Steve There's a long philosophical discussion that we could have on why volunteer armies are important and necessary. You want your military to be connected to civilians and vice versa. Those are the kinds of things that mitigate the potential for military coups. There's been countless examples over the course of civilization on native armies overthrowing a government. You don't want that, pretty much ever.
We can have another on why women in the military not only works, but should be considered necessary. You want your military to be a representation of the society they are protecting. It's part of why our military isn't just staffed by white men. And it's why it shouldn't be only men. This connects back to the idea of this intertwining of civilian and military to build a stronger sense of community and society, and willing service to both.
6
She may "want to be part of a group willing to die for each other", but the fact is she'll die on her own regardless.
"Blessed are the peacemakers and the ends they seek, for they listen without anger and build bridges when they speak."
The Romance of "Dulce et Decorum Est" will not hold up when metal hits flesh.
2
Having recently read the NYTimes article “War Without End”, following Spec. Soto’s slow disillusionment with military plans, tactics, daily goals, I can only wonder at the practice outlined here...rushing straight up a hill, evidently in the direct fire from the pretend cutouts above. The hill is taken. I have this urge to channel Spec. Soto and ask....how did that work for your platoon? For years. They had the high ground. And then it was abandoned. (See also Korea, Vietnam).
But after....50 years, I’m supposed to be heartened that a few good women can meet an outdated physical bar, carry her supplies with the shoulder strength of men....and dash ahead when the radio antenna (antennas?) breaks.
Well, if we ever fight WWI again, this platoon will be ready. Can she coordinate air fire, use a satellite phone system to alert drones, have the upper head strength to ask “why” we need this hill? Carry much of her supplies in leg pockets instead of back packs....
I’m guessing some...man designed this training. I can only hope women advance fast enough to bring some logic, reality, to war. Prove herself? Keeping her probable comments on her superiors to herself is proof enough. I’m with Spec Soto- large changes are necessary.
7
@Jo Williams I'll bet the Lieutenant knows the difference between "down a hill" vs the "up the hill" you confused yourself with, words that were not in the article.
3
‘ By the end of the hour long attack, they were atop a hill.’ What- they were taking a....valley?
@Jo Williams
Your characterization of her plan "I can only wonder at the practice outlined here...rushing straight up a hill, evidently in the direct fire from the pretend cutouts above. The hill is taken."
"Her plan: advance down a sloping hill where combat engineers would use explosives to blow a hole in a fence. From there, the Marines would move to seize a pair of wooden bunkers."
You went out of your way to mock her leadership.
1
The U.S. military is catching up with other NATO forces. Canadian forces have had females in front line duties for some time. This dates from 2006, Afghanistan.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nichola_Goddard
It's not about gender, it's about being qualified.
22
Wow, plenty of misogny in force throughout these comments!
I wonder how many of those men could pass the requirements Lt. Hierl did.
28
@Kate All of them. Kudos to Marina A. Hierl, and an ooo-rah! to Marina! We are (or should be) a long way from when women should be assigned bare-foot and pregnant to the kitchen.
3
The headline of this article presents a simplistic view of the Marine Corps' opposition to women in close-knit ground combat units. It was never argued that no woman would be physically capable of the requirements of the job. Rather the argument was that "co-ed" units are less effective and have lower morale than all male units. it is clear that a far smaller percentage of women can handle the physical requirements of the infantry. The issue is whether providing an opportunity to those few who can actually adds to combat effectiveness.
3
@flat feet
Like many comments, this one suggests that war hasn't changed over the last several hundred years from one that involved men in combat on the field of battle to one where the battlefield is everywhere and there is little effort to confine operations away from civilians when such choices are possible.
That said, war was never an all-male circumstance and it is even less so today. While the US military has enjoyed battlefield dominance since achieving it globally in the course of WWII, it has also been met with by a countervailing tactic, asymmetrical warfare, that tends to blunt the notion that US combat effectiveness always prevails. There are lessons here that remain unlearnt: Vietnam; Afghanistan; Iraq.
One of the major tasks that must be faced is operating where there is no easy way to distinguish between friend and foe. The standard of male dominance that combat effectiveness was a yardstick for in the past gives way to a more complex reality where the additional insights offered by women leverage aside such dated, purist notions of the battlefield. When women and children are just as likely to be on the battlefield or even in the ranks of enemy combatants, military force is enhanced, not degraded, by the insights available by incorporating women into the ranks of combat units. Their exclusion at this point would actually undermine combat effectiveness, because it would deprive units from gaining the benefit of contrasting POVs from women.
7
@flat feet Sheesh. Always a reason to exclude. The same reasons were used to argue against racial integration of the troops.
4
@Mike
That is very true, and units operating in more populous areas in Muslim lands find female soldiers an even greater asset because the females can go places males cannot, conduct searches, and interact with the local women. In cultures where women are forbidden to be touched or even seen by males other than their husbands or relatives, having women in the armed forces is essential.
These are the sorts of marks of progress that are hallmarks of American excellence. And the article did not even have to point out that the platoon is also ethnically diverse.
This is how we roll. And it makes me proud.
18
This article, like the article in the magazine published yesterday, makes me sad. Here is an obviously talented young woman and she says that "she wants to be part of a group willing to die for each other". Wouldn't the USA be better off if she and people like her wanted to be part of a group that wants to promote life and not be part of a death culture? Look at all the problems in this country that she could be working to solve but she is in Australia training to fight yet another war in an endless string of wars. When do we say enough?
57
@Abbott Hall
Marines don’t want to die for each other. They want the enemy to die for each other. “Babyfaced killers” is how a Marine warrant officer described them to me.
Hitler thought Americans were too soft to stand against his Wehrmacht. That’s why he impetuously declared war on us. He learned otherwise quickly enough in North Africa.
It’s not to excuse Vietnam and the forever war to say that the price of freedom is military vigilance.
4
@Abbott Hall Yes life would be nice if we did not need Marines ready to kill and die. But we do not live in that world. One can argue that we fight in too many conflicts, but it is not rational to argue that we do not need our brave members of the Marines, Army, Navy, and Air Force to defend us.
2
@Abbott Hall
One path toward peace would include requiring our young women to register for the draft along with our young men.
As soon as a non-volunteer daughter of a senator is about to be sent to the front, the troops will be headed home.
5
“Thirty-seven women have attended the Marines Corps’ Infantry Officer Course at Quantico, Va., for 13 weeks of combat evaluations and mileslong hikes carrying heavy loads. Only two women have passed.”
Sounds like a perfect example of the exception proving the rule.
It’s good to see NYT employing military veterans to report on the military. The Chivers piece on the forever war in this Sunday’s magazine is another fine example.
I can remember clueless NYT reporting on the Iraq invasion and the Gulf War either because the reporter didn’t fully understand what he/she was observing or because the reporter uncritically swallowed what the military press officer was offering.
13
I understand how the Marines feel, but similar things were said about Blacks, Jews, etc. Give the women a chance.
23
Women in combat:
Infantry NO
Artillery NO
Armor MAYBE
Aviation YES
@Sam Freeman kitchen yes, grade school teachers yes
3
@alice
Sam Freeman:
US Army YES
Infantry YES
Vietnam YES
Operation Apache Snow YES
Big changes for women Marines since 2006. (See Shade It Black.) The Corp deserves credit.
Bravo Zulu (great job), Lt. Hierl! Wishing you all the best in your career.
17
If this experiment wasn't working out, would there be an article in the NYT about it?
2
Bravo Zulu for the Lt. Being a Marine is not easy and it is not for everyone. Better to sweat in training than to bleed in war.
Retired Marine
4
The dusty shrub. Only one plant ? I think you'll find it's the dusty scrub.
3
Kind of sad that this article comes on the heels of CJ Shiver's great magazine article about our endless, futile wars in Afghanistan, the Middle East, Africa battling the always elusive "terrorists."
A lot of talent and goodwill and lives being wasted by our politicians who keep throwing people and treasure into these sinkholes.
I'm sure Hierl will do a good job leading her platoon...on random, mostly useless patrols in a failed quagmire like Afghanistan. Hopefully she'll also be good at keeping an eye on our supposed Afghani Army allies to keep them from perpetrating insider attacks.
Nothing against her but she's just one small part of a misguided (thus far) military.
20
I found it interesting that the first recruiter suggested Hierl go to college, which she did but came back around to joining the Marines. Can their be any better indication of leadership skills than that drive, that focus, that long-range perspective? A good leader makes it explicit that they would never ask anyone to do something they haven't done, or wouldn't do, themselves. I would follow Lieutenant Hierl gladly. I am proud she is one of ours.
121
@Brian Prioleau My son wanted to join the Marines straight out of high school. I talked him into waiting until after college. He is now in command of several hundred Marines and is glad he waited.
3
There are still places and organizations where women should stay away from. One is any combat theater. Another is the Boy Scouts. But of course they refuse to accept the fact that there is a definite difference in the sexes, because it prevents them from being fully liberated. At least in their own minds.
2
The lady has earned respect in a tough business, training troops for war. That’s not easy for men either. The hardest part will come later under actual battle conditions.
3
The mission of our military is to be the best fighting force that can defeat or deter the enemy. Enlisting women to engage in a profoundly male activity in the name of equality and social justice is a terrible idea. Sure, one can point to the "exception-to-the-rule, top 1%" woman that can run like the guys but that's not the norm. Do a quick online search of "US Navy pregnancies" to see what particular problem with having females serve in long deployments.
2
@Daniel Too funny. We're sure those pregnancies were caused by the women.
3
Love these women success stories. I have an 11 year old granddaughter and 6 year old one also.
The 11 year old is starting to think about what she wants to be. I share these stories with her as well as The NY Times women’s obits...
Keep up the good work opening up young women’s eyes!
12
We should bring back the mandatory draft. Forcing both men, women, transgenders, illegals, etc to partake in potential combat situations would quell much of the identity politic nonsense that has seeped into our military. Instead of complaints about not being able to serve or go into combat we will witness a litany of complaints about the obligation to do so.
16
@Robert: My guess is that there would be massive refusal to register -- plus it would be political suicide in Congress to vote for a draft. The public has no interest in these wars being fought in Asia for the benefit of weapons and oil moguls.
3
If any person (regardless of gender) can achieve and maintain the same standard that is applicable to all, then they deserve to be treated equally and paid the same as their counterparts.
That is excluding the respect they deserve.
3
In reply to FunkyIrishman member of the resistance
But will she fight and die?
Members of the platoon were not quoted for their opinion..no doubt the "political" inference with interacting with the platoon members if negative would cause problems. That said, project the female platoon leader in areas like Korengal Valley, Helmand Province or stacking in urban areas of Al Anbar Provinces villages..then ask yourself if females should lead Soldiers/Marines into heavy combat.
The issues are obvious..can she pull any of her platoon members across a 100 ft open area while receiving fire?
Again, project a female (she looks to be be 5 ft 4" at 130 lbs) into some of the major Marine battles of the past..and project that image into today's combat environment with IBA, carrying a 240B or a SAW....
2
Congratulations to Lt Hierl on her accomplishments. I also think it is worth mentioning Lt. Col. Kate Germano who as a training battalion leader relentlessly insisted on not tolerating lower standards for female recruits. Her insistance on tougher standards eventually got her pushed out. But she lead the way for Lt Hierl.
11
I congratulate all the officers who accomplish this level of training and ability. The respect of the platoon is a testament to this. Hopefully Major Bone Spurs will read this.
6
Having courage, strength and tenacity are admirable traits for a woman or a man.
However, what you choose to use your talents for is more important.
In this case, the article appears to heroize people who volunteer for the Empire's military, an organization that since WWII has been an instrument of aggression, pre-emptive and illegal wars, war crimes, hegemony, all in service to the military-industrial complex--not protecting us from attackers.
To use one's strength and intelligence in the service of an ignoble organization that creates suffering is the ultimate folly.
8
@Steve Davies
Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori ... Horace.
That's what Lt. Hierl signed up for. Let us hope that to whatever harm's way she is sent, she comes back alive, sane and whole.
the rest test will only come in battles and wars where women's weaknesses will then be found out and leading to avoidable deaths due to indecision. millions of years of evolution is not easily wiped out by politically correct politicians and policies. nature made men to be warriors not to be sexist, but because men have millennia of evolution to be more suited for war and killing. women might do well in peacetime b'c there's no real pressure on them but when the real bullets start shooting, nature selection reigns
1
The rest test? What’s the rest test? Not familiar with that kind of test. Does it involve hammocks?
1
@Condy Women already serve in combat (battles and wars) and some have died in service.
I'm glad to see that 1 woman has gotten the opportunity to command, and by doing so, fully exercise their abilities.
Of course men always think women can't do difficult and demanding jobs, so as woman, I read this article in the same way I read every "WOW SHE CAN DO THIS JOB" article, with mixed feelings, but not about this woman's accomplishments, but about the persistent view of women as incapable.
I suspect that if it a study were approved, where men were injected with differing levels of hormones every day, for 28 days in a row, simulating what women go through EVERY 28 days, the male study participants wouldn't make it a week, if that, before dropping out.
DIFFICULT is when, as a woman, you wake up to a body that feels unpredictably different every day, but and you still...
care for the kids, go to your job, maintain your relationship with your spouse, do more than your share of household chores, do more than your share of childcare, be more efficient and productive and creative than every man that also does your job, get paid 70% of what men get paid, live under the constantly watchful eyes of "society, and do it all with a smile.
It's wonderful that this woman's abilities have been recognized and rewarded!
NOW can we recognize woman as having the same potential as men, to do difficult jobs? And if not now, WHEN?
I just hope the Marines get it right, in terms of the financial side of promoting a woman, so they don't stiff her on pay!
70% is not enough!
6
Great story and a well-written article. I am struck that she didn't really want to be interviewed and that all the photos are either from a distance or from behind. Good for her for not seeking publicity, and good job by the writer to tell the story well without having to betray its subject by giving her publicity she didn't want (and would probably have made her job harder).
15
The military forces of America are spread out around the world to try to ensure continued domination of American interests over local people. This necessitates hiring out mercenaries and torturers, putting dictators into power and keeping them there and, yes, killing people. In the process, we enrich war profiteers and take money away from education, health care, infrastructure and combating poverty. Let's honor women who prove their value by fighting for peace, justice and the environment rather than those who turn themselves into killing machines at the disposal of imperialist capitalism in places like Afghanistan and Syria.
6
Amazing that anyone in their right minds would want to do this, but more power to her. I wish someone like her had stepped forward to volunteer in my place when I got drafted back during the Korean (er ah) police action.
6
I admire and respect the determination and strength of First Lt. Marina A. Hierl. However, she was not GIVEN the rank of First Lieutenant, she EARNED that rank after successfully completing the Marines Corps’ Infantry Officer Course at Quantico which entailed a 13 week course of “combat evaluations and mile long hikes carrying heavy loads”. She was a marine, first and foremost, and accomplished what she set her mind to. She was also “treated like any other new officer . . . most junior rank of officers must prove themselves to earn respect as they navigate the pressures of a close-knit infantry company.”
While this concept of “a woman leading men into combat” is a major paradigm shift in the Marine mindset, I am hopeful that the actions of First Lt. Marina Hierl and the Marine Corps in general will continue to realize that women’s ability to succeed in the military is largely due to their intelligence, inner strength, dedication and willingness to do the job in addition to meeting the physical demands and expectations of what is required.
This was a wonderful and inspiring story. I am so dang proud of Lt. Marina A. Hierl for pursuing and accomplishing what she had her sights on and I am proud of the Marine Corp. and her Company for treating her like a soldier who just happens to be a woman. She’s getting the job done. I would hope that be the first order of business and the priority?
135
@Marge Keller
Sincere apologies for accidently typing a question mark at the close of my comment. The sentence was NOT mention to be a question but rather simple a statement. While these arthritic paws are becoming a nuisance, proofreading prior to submitting would be most prudent.
5
@Marge Keller I'm proud of her too. My son finished OCS back in March and is now finishing up The Basic School whereupon he will be assigned his specialty. I can attest to how tough OCS is thru my convos with him. The Basic School is extremely taxing too. My son likens it to 'finals, every day'. Constant evaluation. OCS and The Basic School, it's a full nine months of physical and mental testing.
4
@A guy from Georgia
Sincere congrats on the impressive work and accomplishments of your son. I can feel your pride and love for your son. The very best of luck to him and you.
PS - I loved the analogy of "finals every day", although I would imagine the pressure your son feels is at an entirely different and deeper level.
1
Many years ago I was employed by an investment banking firm and my mentor was a retired marine corps Lt. Colonel. When I was promoted and he became my boss, I thought that he could care less if I were a woman or a man or a robot-as long as I got the job done. And the day he told me that I would have made a good junior officer in the Corps, I thanked him because I knew how important the Marine Corps had been in his life. I’m pleased that although he told me that almost 45 years ago that the Marines have finally decided that yes indeed a woman can be a fine junior officer and now that that barrier is gone maybe even a General!
20
@Pragmatic She's not the first female junior officer in the history of the Marine Corps, but the first female infantry officer to lead a platoon.
1
@Dan Lyon. Thanks. I knew that and meant to include in my comment but forgot
This is an excellent story, well written. A word of caution with regard to the concept of "equality". As a conceptual guide for the application of performance standards, this young lieutenant's story illustrates our military services' living up to the ideals that we should all aspire to. There are almost endless opportunities for the Marine Corps and each individual Marine directly participating in this story, to derail this Marine Officer's career progress. That has not happened! It appears that every one of them has demonstrated their ability to comply with the ideals of our democracy and the oaths they have sworn upon enlisting or the oaths sworn when commissioned as officers. This story describes a Marine Corps that is leading all of us by example.
Female infantryman, or any of the even more highly qualified specialists selected from their ranks, will never reflect the proportional number of females in our society or in the military generally. As noted earlier, the physical performance required by ground combat disqualifies most of us, regardless of gender. Despite the relentless march of technology, it is highly unlikely that the athletic performance required of high quality combat troops & their leaders will change substantially in our lifetimes.
As long as our military services maintain valid performance standards and enforce them fairly, we will be making real progress toward achieving true equality. As has often been the case, our military leads our society.
11
They trained her to lead, not to seek publicity. From the tenor of this article, Lieutenant Hierl is doing just that. And that, in the military, is what matters.
31
About hair: style of hair, clothes, etc reveal us. What we choose for our "look" has real meaning. Efficient hair is a hallmark of modern man: wash and go. Modern woman has a very large range of hairstyles from which to choose in order to project an image. An efficient hair style that doesn't require a lot of time and effort to maintain serves women well if they want an image of efficiency and dedication to task.
1
Not many women are ready to lead a Marine infantry platoon, of course neither are many men. It's a tough job and one of the (many) requirements is physical strength, upper and lower body. If someone gets the job done, who care about gender, make them the CO. If they can't, stop worrying about "micro aggressions" because you've got a much bigger problem.
46
Time to stop the sexism. Women must be included in registering for the draft.
53
@Shamrock We are largely a volunteer military, not using the draft in nearly 50 years. There are many ways to serve our country and I think we should start to see the draft as a requirement not just for military service but to be mobilized in disaster situations.
It would be good to require 18year olds to register for the draft and to be required to complete 16 weekends of a combination of military and disaster preparation training before they turn 21, which would end their draft eligibility. Failure to complete the training would leave someone as eligible to be drafted until age 25.
Having universal registration and training would lead to greater appreciation of the sacrifice members of the military make and would give young people a badly needed common experience.
36
@Shamrock
Draft? If you mean it's time to reinstate the draft for everyone, then I agree.
1
@Shamrock
Don't do a "draft". Just make it MANDATORY Service for ALL and especially for anyone who has dreams of Political Office later on.
And further, make it a minimum of 1 tour on ACTIVE DUTY, not Reserves, National Guard, or anything else.
1
Nothing against female involving and participating in all kinds of jobs & professions. When nothing happens and everything seems working smoothly, female soldiers will be fine. But when jobs requires physical and face-to-face combat, we really need to think twice before putting female soldiers in harm's way. Other than that, air force and navy operating in distance should be more suitable for female professionals.
6
@Usok Did you read the article? Regardless of your opinion, Lt. Hierl is doing the job. So I suspect that you DO have something "against female involving and participating in all kinds of jobs and professions".
9
They choose to put themselves in harms way and don’t need to be protected from it. You stop the sexism, but nice try.
6
@Usok
I am not sure what data you are basing your conclusions on but I am a former Army Officer who served in a what used to be a “restricted role”, a field surgeon in a Forward Support Battalion attached to a Combat Arms unit in Iraq. The battlefield in modern conflicts is no longer linear. There is really no such thing as “in distance” in a combat zone as you describe. All our personnel were in “harm’s way”, facing mortar attacks, IED’s, and occasional small arms fire. There was really no difference between men and women in terms of their performance under adverse conditions and no difference in the response to male versus female causalities.
1
Nowadays, women have been continuous fighting for equality. People should take more efforts to really realize equality. I believe that we can have better future.
27
Just love the story's caption and the tone it sets for this piece.
6
@Noo Yawka
OORAH (and then some)!
2
Wonderful article. The Marines made a good decision by keeping the bar equally high for all thereby finding the most talented and capable to lead our troops. It appears that Lt. Hierl is going to have a very successful military career..... and the people of the United States will be able to sleep better at night with leaders such as she in command positions.
84
Lt Hierl is wise to avoid interviews. Little to be gained and much to lose. Her focus on doing the work of leading her troops is admirable. One day stories like this won’t be very newsworthy but that time is likely far in the future. I hope to never read that the Marines have forced her out as they have other women. She seems to be a natural leader.
122
@AjaBlue in the Marines, if you can't hack it you're out for your own good and that of the Corps. The enemy isn't going to lower any combat bar
2
Speaking as a former Marine infantry officer myself, many of us were reluctant to integrate women into the infantry because we felt calls for reduced physical fitness standards, a very bad idea, would soon follow. Lt Hierl proved that women can succeed when undergoing the same time-tested standards so I say more power to her. She clearly is a remarkable person.
175
@PCHulsy
Nope, she didn’t meet the same standards and most likely a lot of men who wouldn’t have met the same standards got pushed through as well.
https://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/your-marine-corps/2018/02/07/passi...
Our country is very lucky to have such wonderful people defending it. Thanks for the very fair story.
Oorah!
50
Great piece. Excellent example of competent leadership.
27
Excellent piece. Well written and insightful. Who knew about our small Marine Corps response force for the Pacific region? Lieutenant Hierl sounds like a fine officer who will continue a tradition of excellence. And btw, it's nice to see Thomas Gibbons-Neff's byline. The Washington Post's loss is the NY Times' gain.
32
When I began my career as an attorney, women were still in a minority in the profession. What I wore and what I looked like seemed to define me more than my ability or intelligence...in the beginning. When it became clear to colleagues and judges that I and other female lawyers brought professional merit to the table, those attitudes began to change, but slowly. Today, I find that, on the whole, the default expectation is one of equality, unless you prove otherwise.
There is no reason that I can think of that a qualified woman should be denied any role in society, any more than a qualified man. I am heartened by the brave women who have paved the way, seen and unseen, for generations of young girls to dream and have the opportunity to achieve those dreams.
73
Jdrider. Really? Oh please stop this latter-day feminism.
You simply must not and cannot speak for the ongoing liberation of all women, which is what feminism is.
Your presence has not affected the legal profession, it is as as ever. The difference? You don't know what you have become.
1
As a woman in cardiothoracic surgery, another profession with few women leaders, I appreciate this article and the inspiration it provides to women seeking a career and a future. We know we have achieved gender equality when people begin to stay focused more on what you bring to the table than what your hairstyle is. The article describes how the Lieutenant wore her hair- I wonder if this were a man would such a comment have been made? Throwing micro-aggressive comments such as how a woman wears her hair along with how she leads might seem harmless but over time have been shown to continue the perception that women are not fit to lead. The we accept what makes us different, we learn how to make that diversity strengthen the team.
268
@Shanda We are all inclined to make comments about each other. I make comments about women on TV all the time, to my more feminist PC husband's chagrin. Micro-management isn't productive, it's time for women to lean in and do more guy things, instead of standing behind a somewhat false feminism portrayed in the media.
1
@Shanda Considering the stereotypical military haircut - a buzzcut - I think it's common sense to discuss how she adapts to that. It doesn't make any sense to call it a "Micro-aggression".
73
@Shanda
You seem unaware that the Marine Corps actually regulates how its members "wear their hair". Those regulations are currently very different for men and woman.
You " wonder if this were a man would such a comment have been made?'". Well if, for example, a man were ever to break into the Olympic water ballet team - the presentation of team members also being tightly regulated - then I expect the press might very well comment on how that first guy to do so is dressed, even if it has nothing directly to do with his efforts in the pool. But then that hasn't happened yet so we will have to see.
36