Dear Mr Krugman,
With regards to your final question, I feel the cause and effect are mixed up. English and German pronunciations align to a higher degree because English has borrowed more from the German language. I do suspect that you may have made this observation after spending thirty minutes on a windy hilltop trying to make yourself understood to a Dane, leading to a momentary time of exasperation, so will let it be!
The primary purpose of politics in Common Law systems, day in and day out, is to effect economics.
Where you stand on the issue of politics depends upon where you believe virtue lies.
If you believe wealth is an indice off virtue, then your politics will be in favor of supply side economics and giving more bargaining power/money/resources to the rich = damn the rest. This is the basis of Republicanism and people like Justice Roberts.
There is another view: virtue/values/ethics/morality is a middle class characteristic - the rich don’t need them and the poor can’t afford them. In this view, the goal would be to expand the middle class in both directions.
This last view, by the way, seems to be part of the premise of the movie “It’s a Wonderful Life” (“Don’t it make them better citizens? Don’t it make them better customers?”) - a primer on civics in American life that celebrates the one time the common man beat back the filthy rich.
Even in a quasi-democracy (with voting restrictions, gerrymandering and disenfranchising people because they were convicted of breaking a law) the filthy rich have too convince people to vote against their interest.
As it happens, decisions of who to vote for are similar to what to buy, in that it involves both the cognitive and emotive sides off the brain. Emotive side is not rational and learns only from experience. The filthy rich then engage in emotional manipulation, specifically hate & anger while exploiting ignorance.
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I am native Dane who immigrated to Southern California from Copenhagen when I was 25. I spent twenty five years in SoCal. I am currently living in Denmark, but plan to return to the U.S. where my daughter is in college. She was born and raised in SoCal, her father is American.
There are many things I love about the U.S. There are many things I love about Denmark. Likewise, there are aspects of both countries I am not crazy about.
Love should never be blind. Not for a person, not for a country. Blind love for a country can easily lead to fascism.
I rest my case.
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You should note that Denmark in the last decades has gone through lost of reforms. Lower income taxes , cuts in benefits and a low effective corporate tax rate. Denmark is also one of the most free economies in the World according to the Heritage Foundation. We are not socialist, but there is still problems. The taxes are to high on higher incomes (OECD) and the deathtaxes are not abolished. I hope the latter will happend later this year.
I think the economist Krugman is neglecting the non-economical aspects of a society.
After having been beaten badly, Denmark managed to learn from one of it's most deadly enemies: The Iron Chancellor Bismarck.
Bismarck had unified Germany on a dual policy of hardcore capitalistic industrialisation and a novelty: The social state.
Bismarck understood that not only did he need the iron works for cannons, but he also needed the sacrifices of the sons of the workers (and peasants) on the battlefield, and the only way to have that, was to make sure that the workers and peasants had a shared interest with the young German state, hence he created the social state that cared for the worker and the peasant.
Denmark (though we never admit that) copied Bismarck and combined that with a local trait, a very powerfull state.
This, in my view, provided Denmark with a structural advantage: That the far greater part of the population actually feels that they have a clear personal interest in the success of the nation - It's not patriotismen or nationalism (we also have plenty, some would say too much, of that) but a decision based on personal interest.
This common interest between the state and people have allowed the state to make those investments in the society that in 70-100 years turned a backward economy into a succesfull economy, without falling into the traps of clientism or a centrally planned economy.
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Thanks. Very informative, intetesting and well writen.
Thank you for a good and serious article about Denmark. Whilst we don't need to agree on everything, people like Trish Regan creates a hostile atmophere in Denmark about Amercian Republicans in generel. I believe her "analysis" is uneducated and ignorantly childish whereas Paul Krugman is obvisouly welleducated and wellmannered. Thank you.
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1/
US inspiration from the Danish case is an interesting thought but here are a few notes on that:
1: Denmark was at the time of the Kalmar Union in 1397-1523 by far the greatest superpower in the region. Since then the nation shrunk through losing a long a succession of wars to the defeat to Prussia in 1864. This process helped contrast the position of a nation in the world - something for example the UK has yet to do - and thus the character and culture of its people. As an example: When Germany lost WW I there was a chance to regain the territory lost in 1864, but rather than claim it, the choice was left to the population and the border was decided by referendum in 1920.
2. The agricultural evolution and the co-op movement was more than just a financial one. It included education and bringing up the rural population in the new democratic and free thinking society. Denmark did not become a constitutional monarchy till 1849 although the monarchs since Christian VII had been 'benevolent tyrants'. Since the 50s however agricultural production has actually been inferior in value to industry and services (by far).
3. The emergence of industry saw the creation of unions and in close partnership the socialdemocratic party. The vision for the creation of a welfare state started in the 1930s with the first social reform, but through a fairly unbroken succesion of socialdemocrat governments through the 50s, 60s and 70s the project was carried out with increasing speed.
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The creation of the welfare state in the 20th century was based on a scientific approach where planning and rational arguments were used to improve social problems. Economists took over leading positions in the socialdemocrat party and literally went hunting for problems looking for a solution. The solutions were ambitious yet based on analysis and science and the parliamentary bills were legitimized by sense, universability, prevention and finansing through taxes. Thus pensions, healthcare, schools, higher education, housing, working conditions etc. etc. were all treated. In tandem the unions negotiated steadily better conditions on pay, vacation, working conditions etc.
By 1973 the working class had morphed into middle class and the public sector was very large, yet professional.
This is not a history lesson as such, but is to illustrate that society does not reform over night (unless by revolution) but takes time to mature and establish itself.
Also note that by 1973 the welfare state in .dk was all but bankrupt and it took a decade of conservative government to re-reform it to make it sustainable. The issue of sustainability is one we STILL grapple with today as demographic, economic, ecological as well as integration with EU issues challenge it.
The welfare state as such is no longer up for debate but the LEVEL is as individual freedom vs. nanny state has become a political arena (taxes).
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3/
This evolutionary proces has also helped form public opinion and mentality. Someone else noted that a new university graduate had remarked that he was now looking forward to repaying his debt to society for giving him an education for free. This is a micro example of the bigger understanding the majority of people have.
Society is us. Taxes are not something I pay for somebody else's benefit when I am healthy, don't have children or am working. It is not an unfair appropriation of MY money by the state. It is something I pay because I went to daycare, school and university and one day WILL be old and in need of care. I pay it because others have paid before and will pay later. I pay it because some people need my help as some day I might need theirs. I pay it because I can go to hospital and the doctor, I can get help if I lose my job etc.
This does not equate socialism however. Denmark is fiercely market driven ranking 12'th in the world where the US ranks 18'th (heritage.org) but regulation is used to level the playing field and curb monopolistic tendencies. The population has a fairly high level of social mobility (though not high enough) and generally very high work ethics giving lots of incentive and motivation to work harder. Yes, taxation is progressive making it less attractive to work those extra hours but frankly - work isn't everything either and staying healthy and happy includes seeing your kids, culture and watching soccer on the couch.
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@Jacob
So reasonable, thank you. I should add that there is some truth (though maybe not enough) to criticisms that such top-down support to citizens weakens their character. Many fiercely independent critics of big government here in the US do NOT have it good, in terms of health, dependents and job security, on the contrary. It's not safe to assume that THEY are motivated by self-serving pettiness and greed. Principles, human dignity and many less noble forces drive them.
I did not follow comments here but concur on Mr. Krugman's observations.
One note though: had Mr. Krugman been visiting Denmark every summer the last 30 years he would observe the following:
- a large part of the population is getting marginalized just like the fly-over country in USA because of demographics
- the elite is closing around themselves in the capital, just as we see in Washington and Stockholm while rural Denmark is forgotten
- the farmers which suffered Globalization, Financial Crisis, and now Draught, they are evil people in the eyes of many, destroying out natural habitats and the environment in general
- inequality is increasing which can be seen by anyone here, public services are under extreme pressure where e.g. health care needs to improve efficiency 3% each year
- wellfare is decreasing, well there is in priciple a full stop for increasing taxation, but fees for having property, price for mandatory garbage service, price on wind-powered electricity is just skyrocketing (named "hidden taxation")
We did all reforms we could think of the financial crisis but I expect globalization is destryoing our way of life, and we will of course embrace it because the alternative is worse.
As a result me and my wife are doing pension savings as if there will be no public services in 40 years.
Having travelled 4 weeks this summer across USA in an RV through mid-western states I see similarities that make me fear we have ingredients for a Trump-recipe in Denmark.
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@Esben
It may not be so bleak, consider Bhutan.
And, there are likely better alternatives to globalization than protectionism/isolationism for small countries, like Denmark - and even for the US.
If national governments supported LOCAL commerce instead of global commerce regional trade relationships and cultural development might support a mosaic of endemicism, not strictly tied to national borders, that could provide long-term prosperity and sustainability and support adaptive cultural evolution. It sounds good, at least.... The carbon tax is a good beginning. The problem is, both capitalism and socialism favor large-scale commerce and/or regulation - and people like to both think and act globally (as I'm doing here). So, I guess I'll just reflect on possible mechanisms shared by countries that promote local activity, as I do farm chores...
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re: your final comment. The Danes seem to swallow most of their words. The written language is veriy much like Swedish, but you can hear what the Swedes are saying.
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As a Dane living in the US for more than 20 years it is uplifting to read this from a person who knows about economics, politics and actually have visited Denmark especially now that FOX news' Trish Regan has sooooo "mistaken" what this country really represent!
And Yes I agree, Danish is an awful language, just ask my American wife!
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Paul Krugman travelling from Copenhagen to Helsingor on his bicycle contemplating why Denmark rated highly for quality of life in Western Europe. A modern country that practices socialism with wealth distribution as recommended by Thomas Picketty the French economist as a clue? Of interest the Danish government banned German nationals from buying residential property to stop rising prices some years ago. Socialism all about controls by popular demand. My only request the travelling American economist-writer peddles over to Norway owner of the largest European sovereign wealth fund (oil) paying the highest State pension in Europe. That to me is the true measure of success. Also Switzerland with Cantons established by Napoleon worth a look-see with low taxes to please everyone.
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Danish sounds like Norwegian with a hot potato in your mouth. No Nordic speaking person would ever argue with this universal fact.
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During WWII most all of these “Socialist Nanny State” European NATO nations emulated France and quickly surrendered to Germany when the first shots were fired. The European “Socialist Nanny State” war policies during World War II were to serve the German war machine by selling the Germans coal, iron, military weapons, munitions, heavy water, food, sex, relaxation, etc. to help the Germans kill US and English soldiers at a profit while they waited for the USA and England to expend the English and US citizen’s BLOOD plus US citizen’s TREASURE to free the “Nanny State” Europeans from German domination and slavery.
Most of those same European NATO socialist “Nanny States” also ordered their “Nanny State” policemen to arrest and deliver their Jewish populations to the Germans to be exported in cattle cars to the German extermination and labor camps.
The French government even ordered their policemen to arrest and deliver some of their young male French citizens to the Germans to be exported to National Socialist Germany as conscript (slave) laborers in the German munitions factories during WWII according to the History Channel.
NATO was intended to be “one-for-all, all-for-one” but it actually evolved into "the USA for the defense of all Europeans, and a small amount of support from the Europeans to support European Defense (from Russia), and nothing from the Europeans to support the defense of the USA?"
NATO Europeans are not US allies, they are US welfare dependents!
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1. You clearly don't understand how NATO is funded. And your understanding of WWII is completely distorted.
2. There are no socialist countries in western europe. All western european countries (and all current members of the European Union for that) are capitalist societies. Look up what socialism is. The strong welfare systems in europe does not amount to socialism, on the contrary all those systems works because of tax revenue from the free market economies.
3. NATO's article 5 have been invoked only once. It was by the USA after the 9/11 attacks. Danish soldiers have fought and died (sadly with one of the highest death tolls per capita) in a war sanctioned by the US through NATO. Saying that NATO is just the US paying for everyone else and that NATO-countries are not allies is just awfully disrespectful to all those non-US soldiers who have paid the the ultimate price fighting side by side with US soldiers in Afghanistan and Iraq.
Get your facts straight.
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Most Americans are terrified because we have no real safety net. That is the reason so many have become mean and selfish. Scapegoats are the whipping boys for our frustrations. We look to demagogues to "save" us, believing the snakeoil they sell us while robbing us blind.
The GOP is kept afloat by frightened, emotionally stressed-out people lashing out furiously at the unknown, made palpable by the exploiters, the shills of the oligarchs.
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It was pronounced like it was written but for a time they talked drunk (slurred) to their kids. Same is true of English. Possibly related to using ethanol as a drinking water disinfectant (as opposed to e.g. tea leaves).
The European "Nanny State" socialist governments that US socialists admire so much paid for all those social benefits such as universal healthcare, parental leave, low cost or free higher education, guaranteed national income, etc., in part by having the US taxpayers pay for their military defense from being conquered by Russia!
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@Gerald.
No. German taxpayers pay 90% of the stationing costs for the 35,000 US soldiers presently in Germany. That's about Euro 2.7 billion per annum.
US stationing contracts are a way to finance an oversized US military machine. When we were defended by Obama, at least we could be sure that NATO stood firm. Trump breaks any given promise, you cannot trust him.
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1. There are no truly socialist governments in Europe. ALL governments and ALL political parties support capitalism. "Socialist" political parties simply want a bit stronger social security than conservatives. It is paid for NOT by the US, but by higher taxes that EU citizens pay themselves.
2. The US is NOT paying for the military defense of Europe. I know that Trump tweets suggest that we do, but like many of his tweets, this is fake news.
The US is paying into NATO funds, but since it exists, right after WWII, NATO has been used to defend a NATO member only once. That was to help ... America, when it was attacked by terrorists in September 2001.
Every member pays into those funds according to its GDP (= the SAME percentage of its GDP).
Apart from that, all members have pledged to spend 2% of their GDP on their own military. A majority of NATO members spends less than that though, but you cannot possibly argue that that means that it's the US who's paying for their military defense ... .
And just like with most of his tweets, what Trumps says is completely contradicted by what he does. It's Trump, not Obama, who has just INCREASED the funding for America's military presence in Europe by a whopping 40%.
In the meanwhile, Trump also doubled the deficit through unnecessary tax cuts for the wealthiest Americans.
So he needs his anti-NATO rhetoric to make his voters believe that the wealthiest country on earth would nevertheless have no money to install a decent SS..
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Denmark is a homogeneous white country. Also european socialist. However the US spends far more on its military, 700 billion, and giving tax breaks to already ultrawealthy individuals than on fighting wildfires,
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To put it bluntly - and maybe a bit unfairly - too many Americans are still - ideologically - living in 1775, when 'government' meant 'oppressive BRITISH government'.
But in Europe and especially in the Nordic countries, government is for 'all of us': 'society' - as opposed to 'the community' (your county/town/village).
Government is there for your sake. That is what you should learn from the old world. But it requires that you:
a. increase participation in the political processes,
b. make it possible for others than millionaires to become politicians,
c. modernize your obsolete constitution - especially your ridiculous electoral college.
An uphill battle.
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The roots of Danish prosperity are a high standing of Danish science and industry during the early phases of the second industrial revolution. Peasants and the cooperative movement were copying the achievments of internationally oriented Danish entrepreneurs and scientists in the cities. But the agrarians have succeeded in establising a narrative of their pioneering achievements in a framework of Denmark as a case of an agrarian society with economic success, forgetting the innovative importance of the urban actors. Alas, Paul Krugman is not the only economist with limited knowledge on the history of Danish economic growth to buy the biased narrative by the peasants.
For a better understanding of Danish economic growth, cf. for instance: Per Boje, Why Denmark became rich: On the history of the Danish Innovation System, in Sogner/Lie/Aven (eds.), Entreprenørskap i næringsliv og politikk (Oslo, 2016) pp. 29-56
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"How to pronounce any Danish word" - https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DkHP0-TWsAcdD3q.jpg:large
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Have you seen the opinion piece in WSJ on income inequality and inaccuracies in the OECD Gini measurement? Makes US out to better than we think. chttps://www.wsj.com/articles/the-myth-of-american-inequality-1533855113?...
Would be interested in any comments or rebuttal
thanks
@Mike
Here's a clue as to why the WSJ might be stretching the truth. WSJ is owned by Rupert Murdoch, owner of Fox 'News'
"Denmark, where tax receipts are 46 percent of GDP compared with 26 percent in the U.S., is arguably the most social-democratic country in the world." Whenever this type of statistic shown, I always feel it's half the story. Federal receipts might be 26% but what about state income, sales and property taxes?
European countries have VAT taxes that flow to the national coffers but we don't have that. So much of the taxes we pay are state and local, (income, property & sales) which isn't collected in this statistical comparison I believe.
@Jonathan Sanders Take the apparently high taxes in Denmark. a medium income of 40-80,000 USD pay gross incomtax of around 37-39% US less arond 20%. Now you take the benifits that is NOT paied by the Danish tax' and add that expense to your tax. I am talking about education, HC (including what your employer pay) Social security (including what your employer pay) and you end up where a US Citizen with an average college educatio and an average income have an expenselevel that is 25-50% higher then a Dane. Tax is not only tax it is also what tax does NOT pay that matters.
"Still on vacation, and I’m currently in Denmark – in fact, just cycled from Copenhagen to Helsingor, aka Elsinore ..."
It made my heart glad to learn of your cycling in Denmark, Paul. We like biking, too. Each and every instance of "keeping calm and carrying on" is a victory over the depredations of he-who-must-not-be-named.
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Denmark has many lessons for us. Unfortunately one of the lessons is that a homogeneous society where everyone speaks the same language and follows the same customs may seem to work better than a society that embraces immigrants and diversity. Denmark's official policy is one of integration not inclusion.
I'm surprised that Paul Krugman completely ignores Denmark's spotty record on immigration. There is much to admire about the Danes but not everything about them is admirable.
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@JA
As far as I'm concerned, I'm surprised at the number of racist comments here.
Not one of the many comments that propose to explain Denmark's prosperity and social democracy through an imagined racially and culturally "homogeneous" society, explains WHAT link we should see between on the one hand a strong social safety net, and on the other hand that (not backed up by any evidence at all) supposedly "homogeneous" society.
So let me fill in the blanks here.
What does comments believe is that:
1. if most people of a country have a white color of skin, they most BE the same kind of people or share the same culture, and society becomes "homogeneous"
2. if you don't have people of different color of skin (or, I supposed, people with a brown or black color of skin ... ?), then the individuals writing these comments can understand why people love to pay more taxes, because that means ... giving your own money to people who look like you, which feels like giving money to your own family.
3. that's why in America, with supposedly more diversity, higher taxes and a serious social security could never "work" (whatever that means ... ?), because you obviously don't want to pay taxes in order to allow free education not only for kids of the same color of skin as yours, but also those of your browner-looking neighbors, who - oh horror! - may even have different eating or worshiping habits ... .
Don't you see yourself how all of this doesn't make any sense ... ?
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@Ana Luisa
To me, the issue is not a racial one, but one of a country with an extreme homogenous population that share a common fate. It is so much easier to understand your own role and dependency in such a small and homogenous society.
Please go research the so-called Jante Law:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Jante
This will explain just how big the importance of society was and is. Much bad can be said about this, but it does represent quite clearly the homogenous nature of Danish society and importance of the "common good".
Finally, one more element: After a sound thrashing of Prussia and Austria in 1864 and the loss of a third of Danish land, the way out of the defeat was to say "what we lose to the world, we shall win inside our own borders", and it led to the development of an extremely successful co-op movement that meant an incredible development of Danish agriculture and thus wealth to the country. In other words, by standing together, we shall persevere.
So yes, the Danes have had it impregnated into their DNA that by standing together, they are stronger.
I would venture to say that if you have the same history and you live in a small area, that is so much easier to achieve that living in a country the size of the US, where success has been hard fought and literally carved out of the land by individuals driven by the desire for a better life than what they came from.
@JA
Canada contradicts almost every point you make here. We are multicultural, bilingual, and a society that embraces immigration and diversity yet my country works as well as Denmark does. Do you have any explanation for how that is possible?
As a native Dane teaching English, German and Latin at an upper secondary and IB school in Denmark, I can assure you that English is not more phonetic than Danish, i.e. the relation between spelling and pronunciation is equally hopeless in the two languages – it is true, though, that German is easy and practical (in that particular regard!).
Apart from that, many good points in a well-written article – as always.
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The greater GNP in US compared to Denmark is partially because in US the national product is growing because of bigger expenses to education and Health Care. The average US Citizen is spening 9000 dollars for HC where as a Dane spend 3700. the 5300 is not equal more value but inefficincy/profit. As it is with the educational expenses.
If you compare the top 200 universities in the World US has 48 (1.5 mill sutdents) and Denmark 3 (95,000 students) the birth rate in US is around 3.5 mill in Denmark 60,000. this means it take 1.5 year to "fill" the top 200 universities in Denmark in US it takes 40 month. In other words it is 4 times more likely for a Danish youth to end up in a top 200 university then an american youth.
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If only Denmark, with all of its “progressive” attitude, was as generous with its wealth and compassionate with its immigration policies towards refugees and the downtrodden:
How Not to Welcome Refugees
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theatlantic.com/amp/article/431520/
@KRamanathan
I just read your article. You're interpreting it in a quite strange way. This is what it writes:
"Over the course of the 20th century, the country of nearly 6 million became home to refugees and immigrants from the Soviet bloc, the Balkans, the Middle East, and beyond. Today, immigrants and their descendants account for 10 percent of the total population. Denmark has also been a prominent advocate for refugees and asylum-seekers. It was one of the first countries to become a party to the 1951 UN Refugee Convention, and the Danish Refugee Council—a humanitarian group partly funded by the Danish government and the Danish public—is actively involved in supporting refugees and internally displaced peoples around the world."
It's only "last year" (your article dates back to 2016, so that means 2015) that a right-wing government (including the far-right) has taken over and that racist and anti-immigrants rhetoric and as a consequence political decisions started to take place.
Conclusion: overall Denmark is a perfect example of how values such as caring for other people translates BOTH into a very solid social safety net, a high GDP and employment rate, and the cultivation of compassion for immigrants.
Apart from that, climate change and the Syrian war have recently caused a record 60M displaced people, which made all Western citizens fear bigger immigration inflows whereas local CEOs aren't willing to lower income inequality ... so lower standard of living.
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One of the key reasons for Danish prosperity is education. Due to the lack of natural resources, the only resource we have is what between our ears.
A short story: I went to school in an industrial town with very little tradition among the residents for education. About 2% of the adult population had gone to college or university. I remember one of my class mates who was struggling learning more than basic math and grammar. Five years later we met and he was now a blacksmith at the town’s largest company; a steel plant. He told me how he had been in Saudi Arabia for his employer doing some work on a steel plant down there. He was very proud when he told a story about how he stopped a local engineer from collapsing a part of the plant - him being a simple blacksmith and the engineer being stupid as...
What Flemming had learned in school was good old fashioned common sense and a level of understanding far beyond a Saudi Arabic engineer.
That is the foundation of Denmark’s prosperity - and as far as I can tell your greatest challenge.
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Spelling never keeps up with pronunciation. Consider all the silent letters in English. Spelling is conservative; pronunciation is liberal.
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"...nothing in Danish is pronounced remotely the way the spelling suggests to an English speaker.... Why did they do this?"
Haha, perfect. How do you say "social democracy" in Danish?
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Kudos for this article. I suggest, as a healthy NYT journalistic strategy, a steady drum beat of articles comparing the social economy of other successful developed states, especially those in Europe's northern tier, to our busted mess. Please keep chipping away at the Right's strange notion of American exceptionalism!
However, Professor Krugman, you could make more explicit the underpinning of "You can do great things on the micro front and still screw up your monetary policy." I suppose you meant by tying the Krone's value to the Euro, Denmark was trapped by the EU's mistaken lack of proper expansionary policy after 2008, as opposed to, say, Iceland?
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Overall I fully agree with this essay by Prof. Krugman, but as an Argentine involved in the countries Agricultural produce and their subsequent industrialization, I think the following affirmation is incorrect:
"And the agricultural nations, even if they grew rich at first – e.g., Argentina – seemingly ended up getting much the worse of the deal, turning into banana republics crippled economically and politically by their role."
Argentina's economy did not go south because of the role they got assigned in the deal; it did so because of wrong macro economic policies (i.e: nationalizing most of its core industries when the world was privatizing them, amongst others); huge recurrent fiscal deficits, and rampant corruption.
One can see where Canada, Australia and New Zealand are today, to name just a few examples, and realize that Argentina should not blame the hand it got dealt for its failures, but its own governments.
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The concensus around social democracy though tends to fall apart in more diverse societies. This is happening in Denmark - just see of the laws they are passing targeted at refugees - all the laws are meant to ensure that recipients of the various social programs are deemed Danish enough.
People support a large safety net if they feel that their country is one big community and that those who end up being helped are similar to themselves. It quickly breaks down when they feel that "others" are being helped - and there is always a politician or two willing to exploit that.
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Oh boy, Herr Professor, you are treading (or pedalling) on very shaky ground when you touch upon the topic of dairy products in EU Member States. Agriculture is subsidized in the EU and eats up a considerable share of total EU budget. In the case of dairy products, this has resulted in overproduction. The excess output lands on the so-called “butter mountains” or in “milk seas”. In other words, the EU purchases the overproduction of dairy products and stores it in gigantic warehouses. At some point, it is dumped on world markets. The latter is not very fair to the dairy sectors of developing countries. The former is nice for farmers in the EU, because they receive artificially high prices. And it’s nice for consumers in Europe, because it keeps the market prices of dairy products low. There even used to be especially low prices for butter around Christmas for baking cookies and such. And after the Chernobyl catastrophe powdered milk sold like hotcakes. Agricultural policy is and always has been a very contentious topic in the EU.
Whatever… enjoy your tour on two wheels: may the breezes from the North Sea or Baltic always be at your back.
@bjmoose1 ... I am sry but have to pull you of your horse, honorable Sir. Your comment is some 30-40 years outdated. No production or price subsidies, no milk lakes, no butter mountains. Things of the 1980’s. EUs agricultural support was reformed long ago and reshapen into a simple land use payment. A per hectare payment unrelated production outcome. Hardly any production effect. EU farmers face world market prices.
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"Sad to say, I’m such a fearsome nerd that instead of thinking about Shakespeare, my thoughts have turned to … economics."
I resemble that remark! All kidding aside, I really do like your writings on economics. The economy is the key to politics. Both sides take turns buying votes. But Trump takes the cake.
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A country ,barely the size or population of our smallest state is easier to manage by government.When you add the surrounding Euro union ,over run by violent and criminal migrants which the governments are supporting on the dole of Euro taxpayers you have something completely different.
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@Alan Einstoss
Lol ... you're clearly not living in Europe ... ;-)
FYI: most EU countries have about 5% of their population that are immigrants. That's not exactly "being run over by" migrants, is it?
And just like in the US, immigrants overall tend to be LESS, not more violent, than people who are living on the same soil for more generations already.
And as I'm living in one of those EU countries for the moment, I'm happy to invest in the greatness of this union through taxes, as it also means living in a place where I don't have to be afraid of stray bullets, where serious healthcare is guaranteed and at a decent price, where presidents don't have to tell their people that Chinese airports look better than the local ones, where education is affordable and of higher quality than in the US, and where there's still an EPA doing its job...
I'm happy that my taxes contribute to all of this, and that they contribute to treating immigrants who are corresponding to very strict immigration laws humanely and with the care and attention that any human being living here deserves, not just because that corresponds to my deepest moral values, but ALSO because it has been proven to be the best way to NOT put them under such horrible stress that they actually become criminals ... . So as is often the case, here too altruism is the best form of egoism ... ;-)
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@Alan Einstoss
Have you ever been to Europe? By the way, Denmark has a greater population than 30 states. What else do you “know”?
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@J R Denmark is about the average size of an American state, and if you Count in Norway and Sweden only 3 states in US is bigger in population
In your darkest moments you might even argue that the US is closer to 'socialism' than Denmark:
The US is closer to being a one-party state. Both the GOP and the Democrats are - to a European - nearly alike, so no real competition. And both parties uphold the status quo.
Elections are far more likely to be rigged because of the electronic voting system. In Denmark everything is done by hand by local committees of members of the legitimate parties.
American politicians are by and large wealthy cronies of the ruling class. No working class politicians!
Voter turnout is pathetic in the US because too many voters know it doesn't matter which party you vote for. And the idiotic discussion of electoral votes vs. popular vote would disappear if proportional representation was introduced.
Gerrymandering is central to the American system as a conssequence of the obsolete 'first past the post' principle. This is also a kind of rigging.
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@Jesper Bernoe
1. Voter turnout in the US isn't that different from voter turnout in France for instance ...
2. An additional 40,000 American lives saved each year (so in the meanwhile almost half a million) thanks to Obamacare alone. How cynical do you have to become the start calling that "it doesn't matter which party you vote for" ... ?
The same thing goes for deficits (Obama cut Bush's $1.4 trillion deficit by two thirds, the Republicans already doubled that again in less than two years), labor laws, civil rights, environmental protection, foreign policy, higher taxes for the wealthy, campaign finance reform, higher investments in education and the arts ... all things that the GOP systematically opposes and destroys, and all things that systematically improve as soon as "we the people" give Democrats full control over DC.
Finally, if you believe that the US is closer to socialism than Denmark, any concrete example to back up such a hypothesis ... ?
@Ana Luisa
Please get me right: I do not think the US is a "socialist" state, and I abhor the republicans as much as you do.
I was actually trying to demonstrate that the Trump administration is taking the US down a path that may lead to a dictatorship - without many people noticing it.
Once again, what is it about three letters that scares some people so much, what is it about SOC. I mean SOC is part of society, part of social. Now what is so wrong about these two words. Can it be that they pertain to what a group of people do naturally, being social, inter-acting with each other openly, being an open Society. So being a social person, open to others thoughts and ideas and their needs would make you a socialist. Or you could be someone who is closed to others, has no need for others, see`s others as a threat, is anti-social. Personally I prefer the warmth of others in an open and caring and sharing Society and being Social. Call me a Socialist.
Denmark! I am green with envy. Went there in the past and didn't want to leave. Enjoy all of it. Especially the cheese, butter, pastries, beer, on and on.
1
I think Dr. Krugman is way over-playing the significance of Danish butter exports to England in the last century. From these events (no figures or references provided), he wants us to believe that the prosperity of Denmark today can be attributed largely to Denmark's embrace of globalization. This is absurd and suggests to me that he believes his readers are gullible.
Also, Dr. Krugman is obviously unaware how clueless he is about cheese - and globalization. These blocks (and uniformly high prices) of cellophane-wrapped Danish, Dutch and other mass produced cheese (a sampling of, probably, Europe's worst cheeses, though still good by American standards), actually demonstrates the NEGATIVE effects of globalization. Those same Edams, Danish Blues, Havartis', Butter cheeses, etc. are available at LOWER prices than shown here at stores in France, Spain, Italy, and other, far superior cheese-making countries, undercutting local cheese production. The invisible hand is hard at work, indeed.
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@carl bumba
If you believe that Denmark is a perfect example of how globalization is bad for a country, rather than how to benefit from more international trade, why don't you give any concrete arguments showing how Denmark is supposed to suffer from international trade ... ?
As to Dutch and Danish cheeses being less expensive than French cheeses in France: it's not the case. If you want to fact-check for yourself, just look at a typical French supermarket, Monoprix, and compare prices:
https://www.monoprix.fr/courses/fromage-0000359
There aren't even any Danish cheeses sold here, only Dutch ones. And indeed, most Dutch cheeses are less "high quality" than many Belgian and French or Swiss or Portuguese cheeses, so their prices are more comparable with low quality French cheeses than the most typical local French cheeses ...
@Ana Luisa
Thanks for the reply. I said the cheese situation was an example of negatives consequences of globalization. Whether or not globalization is a net benefit for a tiny country with very limited resources is another question altogether. The issue presented by Krugman is what is best for the US (where we are far less dependent on foreign inputs).
I don't know the retail cheese situation in France. I do know it quite well in Austria, Hungary, Slovenia and Germany (to a degree). The mass produced cheeses of the largest and/or hi-tech northern European countries flood the market of smaller countries with rich and often superior cheese-making traditions. Since joining the EU, the average person of the former Yugoslavia can't afford their own traditional cheeses and have to choose between German, Dutch and mass-scale French "cheese product". The stores, themselves, (i.e. the supply chain) are from these same countries. It's sad. And cheese is the exception... wait til the Chinese figure out dairy.
@Ana Luisa
Also, thanks for that reference. Most of the products listed at that supermarket franchsise do not resemble cheese made in France before globalization, say, 1980. It actually looks more American, even pre-sliced, -shredded and -cubed. Even the Roquefort, it's the EXACT same as what we have here. It's not just packaging.
Large-scale, French (ie government-run) breeding programs of lacuane sheep (I'm a sheep farmer) have tripled their milk production to allow this scale - and, yes, this comes at a cost. Not just in terms of milk quality or animal welfare, the cultural impact of such industrialization is hard to specify, but it's huge.
"Denmark, where tax receipts are 46 percent of GDP compared with 26 percent in the U.S."
The U.S. spends about 18% of its GDP on healthcare. So healthcare and tax receipts are about U.S. 44% of its GDP, roughly equal to Denmark.
If we enacted Medicare for All, we would spend about 10% of our GDP on healthcare, maybe less. That would mean our total for healthcare and tax receipts would be 36%. Seems like a great deal to me.
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@Joe Sparks:
i think you're getting apples and oranges mixed up.
"tax receipts" (26% of GDP) and "expenditures on healthcare" (18% of GDP) are intersecting sets. they are different categories: receopts (revenue) vs. expenditures.
a large portion of the tax receipts go to expenditures on healthcare. i am assuming that the 26% of GDP includes both federal and state/local taxes and also includes FICA taxes.
A better way of breaking it up would be:
non-healthcare public spending in the US as % of GDP
healthcare public spending as % of gdp
healthcare private spending as % of GDP
I assume that almost all healthcare spending in Denmark is public spending, thus add up those three columns and see how it compares to 46%.
As of 2016, slightly less than 50% of US healthcare spending was public spending:
https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/health-spending-u-s...
thus, a table-napkin calculation would be that US tax expenditures + healthcare expenditures = 26% + 9% = 35%.
@bruce bernstein the tazation in Denmark consist of both income and other taxes. Let us take the income tax. an íncome of 40-80,000 USD gives in Denmark a gross incometaxation of 37-39%. In US you have to add the cost that the employer pay that is for social security and Health care 6.25% and around 5000 USD. add that to 20-25% gross income tax you have. Now you add your educational cost, that is fee and tuition for a 4 year college education, spread it over 40 years (working life ) and then look at the expense level you have covering the benifits equal the Danish tax benifits and you will find theat a Middel class income use 45-55% of your income to pay for the same we pay 37-39%. Most of the difference is in education and HC. I includede that a Danish student is paid 10,000 USD a year to study
If I remember correctly, Charles Kindleberger had a short article about Denmark's co-ops standardizing quality and giving a seal of approval to its dairy products, thus avoiding the Market for Lemons problem.
Another important aspect of the Danish society that U.S. left ignores is that its restrictive immigration policy. There is an extremely tight quantity limit on the number of immigrants, and immigrants have to have the language test within 6 months. You cannot have a welfare state with lax immigration enforcement.
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It’s also quite expensive to immigrate to Denmark.
To just about everyone: the main difference between the U.S. and other countries is our focus on federalism. Yes other countries have regional lines like our states and differences in culture like our states, but the Europeans seem to be able to invest as a country, and not say government is bad. That said, America is a multi-ethnic country and that creates problems, often born from some type of racism or other divisive belief. I love the U.S., but it can learn from others.
3
Denmark trades mostly with other European countries (and some with the US). These countries are mostly on a par in terms of wages. The biggest exporter to the US by far is China, and that trade represents about half the trade deficit in goods. Wages in China and other East Asian countries are still far below those in the US, and this gives those countries a large advantage in manufacturing and some other areas (trade in services is expanding). This is the main problem of international trade for the US, not existing tariffs, although China and other East Asian countries which depend on exports are also more aggressive about trade in several ways.
"Free trade" is largely a myth for various reasons, but if it did exist it would lead to flattening of wages throughout the world. As things are now, that means dragging US wages down. This is something that US capitalists actively want and work toward, but not something that US workers should put up with. They would like to see workers in other countries get ahead, but not at their own expense and for increased short-term profits for capitalists. Trump apparently has no understanding of the actual situation, but what do his pro-"free trade" opponents propose to do to protect the wages of US workers? The problem will not go away even if Trump does.
3
I have a great memory of Danish professors through many conferences and meetings I attended since early eighties - one point I should say they are different people, humility, soft spoken and full of empathy. Why these traits developed in Denmark, I do not know. Their social and economic system reflects this culture. My hypothesis is Max Weber had less impacted their culture because of the influence of Earlang, a pioneer of unpredictability of human choices. The futility of certainty and acceptance of uncertainty made them more loving and sharing community - happiness comes from sharing. Let us see how the new multimedia culture distorts this healthy community.
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@Kalyan BasuI agree, but I once worked with an older Danish woman who was a transplant to the U.S. and she was one of the most abrasive people I ever knew. She LOATHED the U.S., said she had never seen a cockroach before she had moved here, claimed that U.S. popular musicians tried to imitate the British, and that Americans wanted a "little sniff of European culture."
International rankings for Denmark and the US as per the following OECD Income distribution statistics:
GINI(Lower is better): Denmark @ .256 ranks near the bottom whereas the US @ .39 is 4th from the top, and coincidentally the US' .39 is very close to Russia's .379.
Relative Income Poverty (Again lower is better): Denmark @ 5.5 is number one on the list, whereas the US is, again near the bottom @ 16.8, sandwiched between Mexico and Turkey.
Income Distribution among the Top 20%, and Bottom 20%:
Again Demark leads the list with a relative income distribution of 3.6 vs the US 8.3, which again is trailed only be such financial powers as Chile and Mexico.
3
To raise the kind of tax revenues Denmark does, you can't just tax the rich. You have to tax everybody...a lot. On top of income based taxes, Denmark has a 25% Value Added Tax on most products, even groceries.
Denmark is a very small outlier. No other country tolerates their level of taxation. I doubt the U.S. would either.
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@Dahr
In real life, most Western countries tax people like this.
The reason why so many Western democracies have a clear majority of ordinary citizens wanting to pay higher taxes is because time and again, it results in a much higher standard and quality of living.
Concretely that means, compared to what is the case today in the US, better education and a more educated population, better healthcare at lower overall costs, a healthier population, less income inequality, better paying jobs, less poverty, and a cleaner environment.
The only thing that prevents the US from achieving this too, knowing that it's even what a majority of conservative voters in this country want, is the persistent GOP-Fox News propaganda spreading the false ideology claiming that governments are the only organizations in the entire world which ar such that miraculously, the more you ask them to achieve, the less they will perform efficiently and the worse they'll end up making things for ordinary citizens.
You really have to live in the US today to for instance start imagining (because you only imagined this, you didn't do any concrete fact-checking before writing this, right?) that "Denmark is a very small outlier. No other country tolerates their level of taxation".
Conclusion: if you want to MAGA, start doing some fact-checking. That's the most patriotic act possible in the US these days ... ;-)
3
Nov. 2017 OECD report, Denmark taxes its population by highest percentage in the developed world. Belgium is third highest. U.S. is relatively low, but many developed countries are higher than U.S. but substantially lower than Denmark including Canada, Japan, China, many others.
You may think it's worth it, many others don't.
@Dahr The taxatio is high in Denmark but the expense level in US for the same benifits is higher aprox 30-50%. The point is that in Denmark you can focus on Family life and Work life and not worry about HC and other Things because it is dealt with. Add your and your employears expenses to HC SS education and living expenses during your education, and all other things and spread it over 40 years (working life) and you will find that you actually spend 45-55% of a middel income and we still only spend 37-39%, the VAT is hard but actually it is only spend on approx. 25-35% of the income so that is still not adding up.
1
"The truth is that there are hardly any people in the U.S. who want the government to seize the means of production, or even the economy’s commanding heights. What they want is social democracy – the kinds of basic guarantees of health care, protection against poverty, etc., that almost every other advanced country provides."
Basics, like Denmark and other EU countries make for a happier, healthy population. GOP mavens use the word socialism to strike fear in the electorate. The only alternative to them is 'unfettered capitalism', and an every man for himself ideology.
Alexandria, the girl from the Bronx, educated and articulate, put it nicely "As a girl I cleaned toilets with my mom. We weren't fearing the left, we were fearing the bottom." (paraphrased)
She is campaigning every where she can for Democratic Socialism. The blend of the best of both capitalism and socialism. EU countries accomplish this and encourage entrepreneurs at the same time. I have been an entrepreneur my entire career and the fear of not having health care for my family on occasion was the worst part of it.
4
Denmark seems to be small enough to be comparable to a region of the US or a sector of its economy, vs the overall whole. But I digress.
Main questions are whether Elsinore has a brewery, if its offerings taste strange, and whether they pair well with Venezuelan beaver cheese, eh.
3
Yes, the usual U.S. bashing here, but America is not homogeneous and will never be on par in many aspects with countries that are. We simply will never agree on all things, and not even close in some cases, as our presidential election proved. For better or worse, homogeneous countries such as Japan and Denmark can make things happen, because as many commentors pointed out, they feel like they part of a larger community. Well of course they do because they actually are.
4
Canada is even less homogenous than the US, yet we manage to have universal hospital and doctor care, one year of parental leave, very low or forgivable college tuition and an excellent public school system.
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@Paulo
That's totally absurd.
1. What's happening in Denmark is happening for instance in Canada too. So this has nothing to do with color of skin.
2. There are conservatives, centrists and progressives in Denmark, so it isn't homogeneous at all. A democracy by definition isn't homogeneous (what would that even mean ... ??). It's the less violent way to allow people who disagree to live together peacefully.
The huge difference between the US and all other Western countries (which all have a standard of living that is better than the US - when it comes to HC, social security, education, jobs etc.) is that only in the US conservatives decided to deliberately fool their on voter base by turning against science and facts and creating the most monstrous propaganda machine that the post-war West has ever seen: Fox News.
Proven facts is what creates common ground, in a democracy. Fox News and the GOP systematically destroy that common ground, and THAT's when it's no longer possible to agree on anything - and as a consequence to make no legislative progress on anything either, as the current GOP-controlled DC is once again showing.
The GOP is destroying the country from within, and all that conservatives can come up with to defend this horrible situation is that ... the problem is that there's more than one color of skin in the US ... ? Don't you see yourself how absurd this kind of excuse is ... ?
1
This post reflects such a common misconception: homogeneity in the Scandinavian states lets them 'get away' with all that socialistic nonsense.
Danish population makeup: "Danish (includes Greenlandic (who are predominantly Inuit) and Faroese) 86.7%, Turkish 1.1%, other 12.2% (largest groups are Polish, Syrian, German, Iraqi, and Romanian) (2017 est.)"
“Population of the United States by Race and Hispanic/Latino Origin, Census 2000 and 2010:
White 63.7%; Black or African American 12.2%; American and Alaska Native 0.7%;
Asian 4.7%”
Really still want to rationally ascribe to a "lack of homogeneity?" such gross differences in the social welfare policies of the US and Scandinavia? Just doesn't compute. Sorry, but my sniffer says this is just more racial dog whistling.
3
Has anyone asked if the regulatory environment has something to do with Danish and general Scandinavian success? No poorly paid immigrant labor on Danish Farms, and no agribusiness conglomerates rolling up all the small family operations. They seem to make tidy profits without the problems of Factory Farms.
5
Denmark is not a prison but it is for the moment filled with Danes. Scandinavian-derived people do well everywhere they live and not that differently from one place to the next.
America has little to fear from the Danes in its midst and Denmark’s good policies would work well among them.
In 20 more years we will have the opportunity to revisit the happiness of multikulti Denmark.
1
The famed Danish astronomer probably had difficulty pronouncing his own name because of his artificial metal nose. So who, um, nose how it’s supposed to be pronounced?
2
About that well-educated tradition in Denmark that you mention only in passing...
Is not college tuition free in Denmark?
Had you mentioned that along with the other items on the list that make Denmark #2 on the Better Life Index (also #2 on the 2017 World Happiness Report), I'd say your bike ride was well worth the trip.
So, Professor, may I respectfully ask, has your trip to one of the top 3 happiest countries on earth given you any further insight to the policies advocated by the Bernie/Ocasio-Cortez that Democrats love to bash as unwinnable & Republicans love to bash as Maduro-Stalinism?
Of course detractors of any reference to Scandinavian success stories will howl about there being no relevance because the USA is so much larger.
But we could sure use your newly enlightened insights into how successful Scandinavian policies (healthcare, education, less outrageous radical cornering of all the money by corporations & the .01%, etc) can help the miserable USA.
How about it, can Professor Krugman get with the Sanders program that guarantees tuition-free public college education along with a Euro-Canadian form of a healthcare system, even for the 3rd most populous nation?
Can the richest country the world has ever known also correct course to be among the happy instead of 13th (or 18th) & sinking like a stone into irreconcilable inequality & ornery, selfish, divisive bitterness?
Does happiness & life satisfaction count in the USA, or is money our only incentive.
6
With all respect, you're making the error many progressives typically make.
I'm quite sure that Krugman supports tuition-free college and he has already explained that he supports single payer. This article shows that he supports many other ideas that - only in the US - are called "progressive".
So the problem is NOT about which IDEALS people on the left support. The only debate there is, is about HOW get there, knowing that most so-called "centrist" Democrats also agree that we need to sign those ideals into law as fast as possible.
And that's where for people like Krugman (as far as I understood) the problem lies: progressives tend to forget that this is a democracy, and that in a democracy you need to compromise if you want to obtain real, lasting change.
Secondly, to a large extent you don't get to choose your opponent, the person/group you have to compromise with.
So where Danish progressives have conservative opponents who mostly agree with the idea of a social democracy (and science), American progressives/Dems do NOT have that luxury, and that's mainly because of Fox News spreading fake news 24/7 (and now also a president who's trying to buy himself a monopoly on "the news" through tweeting and making his supporters believe that all other news is false and a conspiracy against him).
That means that the next step in the US is for progressives to STOP merely TALKING about ideals, and to start reaching out to GOP voters in order to get them on board first ...
5
I'm genuinely curious: has Krugman, in fact, disagreed with the premise that we should be more like Europe? (I know he hasn't; I've been reading him for a decade and it's been a running theme with him since long before the Sanders craze took off). Or has he been disagreeing with Sanders on tactics? I.E, pointing out that this new obsession with Medicare for all is not the ONLY way to universal health care as it's been portrayed, and that in fact most "Euro-Canadian health care systems" run on something else?
@Ana Luisa
Respectfully,
Bernie Talked to Everyone. They heard him.
Bernie almost won the primary against HRC.
Bernie would likely have beaten Trump. Certainly he was as fierce a fighter. You needed the tough kid from Brooklyn to beat the elitist snob from Queens.
Bernie overlapped with Trump's platform (except Bernie wasn't lying):
Eg:
Bernie was entirely behind the same American Workers that are now forever lost to Trumplandia. For this reason he was against completely open borders & NAFTA, which was a key overlap with the Trump platform.
Bernie's campaign was directly financed by the People & their small contributions, not Wall Street, fatcats, not corps like HRC.
Bernie was Democracy.
Maybe Danish doesn't sound like it is spelled, but it sure sounds prettier then German, or god forbid, Dutch...
4
@Nerka
Some Dutch can be very sensitive about criticism of their native tongue. I saw a cousin walk out of a dinner when someone suggested they wear surgical masks so they wouldn't spit on the food while talking. No doubt it is a hard language to speak and harder to learn but it isn't as bad as all that. Now Afrikaans...
I needed that - blessed are the cheesemakers.
4
Hey Paul,
Hope the rest of your holiday is interesting and pleasureful.
As to your observations of Denmark - I find them illuminating. But don't get too hopeful that anyone beyond your loyal readership "base" will find the facts you display anything other than fake.
One of the saddest parts of our journey as a democracy is that the attitude of the multitude is that America is so exceptional that we have nothing to learn from other nations - who might have many more centuries of existence under their belts!
And what makes this so ironic and pathetic is that the "pro-business" lobby feeds this dysfunction. I was a retailer and a hotelier. The first thing you do when making a business plan is to carefully evaluate your competition. You see what works for them. You take that idea and adapt it to your model. You absolutely don't think that the only good ideas will germinate from your tiny little head. You harvest the best concepts and you improve on them!
But that would not be "Murican", would it? We act like arrogant teenagers who "know it all". And our citizens suffer accordingly. Shame, shame, shame. I thought we could be smarter...
8
The problem here, Professor K., is that average Americans get NOTHING for their tax investments. The wealthy among us take it all. They pay discounted taxes and take all the benefits. They even get the undeserved privilege of permanent cuts, not so the average working American. And frankly, I don’t want my taxes going to the corporate welfare doles where it is redistributed to the already wealthy. They do nothing for this country but use up resources we (not they) end up paying for and giving nothing in return, not even living wages to their workers. Denmark has it right, as does the Netherlands and other enlightened and freedom loving social democracies around the world. They look at us fat Americans with our over consumption and 60 hour work weeks and laugh. Freedom? Not in America. In America you’re a slave to one thing or another, corporations and their owners will always make sure of that (otherwise they would go broke-like Trump).
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I happen to be an Indian American. I believe in Democracy as well as socialism. But I also know that perfect or extremes of socialism & democracy are unnecessary. Some restraint on democracy and socialism ought to be tolerated.
Denmark & other Northwestern Europe of today are about ideal. There is inequality but the safety net programs are good enough giving the citizens a sense of safety, which is necessary. I think there is little poverty there.
Poverty must be eliminated from the face of earth, which is very much within our reach. In fact unless you are a sociopath, you dislike to witness misery around you. Most rich people would like to see misery eliminated, and they are willing to do their share towards that end. (Indeed when president Trump said he didn't want to see people die on the streets, he was expressing his real wish. Now he sees those who don't admire him as his enemies)
With this long introduction I would propose a modest tax-hike on the rich. We need one more higher marginal rate of 50% only on over about $15 million in taxable income after all legitimate deductions, which means close to $20 million in gross income of a household. Initial 99.5% household incomes would not pay more, I think.
Furthermore, working poor pay far too much in taxes, though they don't pay federal income tax. Payroll tax on the first $10K should be reduced to 1% & on the second $10K to 2%. If at all possible lift the cap on it but cut payroll tax again to 1% beyond, say $150K.
Basically, you're proposing a more progressive income tax. But if we gear it to the unequal distribution of gains from globalization since 1979, 50% on $15 million is not enough.
All gains from globalization have gone to the top 20% of earners. 90% of that went to the top 10%. 90% of that went to the top 1%. 90% of that went to the top 0.1%. I'm not exaggerating. That is the measured effect. It explains the wage stagnation we've lived through since Reagan.
Here's another number: while the average 1%er earns something like $1.5 million, the 1% cutoff is under $500,000 a year. That is, less than 1% of Americans take home $500,000 and, of those who do, the median is $1.5 million. So the 0.5%er starts at $1.5 million. That gives you some idea how the 0,1% live. Or no idea, really, unless $100,000 a month seems like a nice starting salary.
Because the skew is so strong, 50% on $1 million, and 75% on $10 million is still generous to the wealthy.
Such high rates merely recognize that their incomes are not, as is commonly supposed, the result of their hard work and economic value, but rather their fortunate social and economic circumstances at a time of great economic change.
Just as the steelworker could not have foreseen the plant closing down when he decided not to go to college, so the banker or stock broker could not have known finance would capture 30% of the economy. Luck is inequitable. Taxes need not be.
3
@James K. Lowden
"Luck is inequitable. Taxes need not be."
True. And I don't disagree with you.
But the problem with any tax-hike is that the society as a whole is programmed quite effectively by Grover Norquist-like folks that tax-hike is suicidal and that tax-cut is the best way to have growth & spread wealth around!
I would rather see a 50% tax on over $1 million and 70% on over $5 million & 90% on over $25 million until inequality drops down to pre-Reagan era levels.
But no such tax-hike is possible in this climate.
If a 50% tax on top 0.05% incomes can be achieved, that would be a great start, also quite effective.
Another problem is that our tendency to go overboard on anything, either tax-cut or tax-hike, or on so many other social issues.
Moderation is necessary to have more equitable & LASTING changes that are desirable.
Income & wealth equality is not important - there are other forms of inequality based on age, gender, race, looks, intelligence and above all simple likability, and so on that determine our happiness.
The Republicans are very unwisely or with corrupt intent exporting the most important fuels and raw materials for our own economy..........
The Congressional Republicans repealed the prohibition on exporting crude oil, sold some of the national strategic reserve crude oil and are now trying to sell Europe Liquified Natural Gas all of which will put upward pressure on prices for Americans as the Republicans serve the fossil fuels industry. Trump and his Republican Congressmen must be heavily invested in the industry.
2
"The Danes may have been lucky in the product in which they turned out to have a comparative advantage."
The preceding sentence rewired my brain - and not in a good way.
We are not Denmark
The Washington Post
Why Bernie Sanders loves Denmark but Hillary Clinton doesn’t
www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/10/13/why-bernie-sanders-loves-...
For the record: Mr. Krugman consistently disparaged Mr. Sanders , who held up Denmark as a model for the US
3
Up until recently Denmark had the advantage of a homogeneous ethnic population. Everyone was a white Dane and spoke Danish. They also had the advantage of a very low defense budget (thanks to the NATO umbrella.) It will be interesting to see how Denmark does in the future.
2
There are lots of ethnically homogeneous countries with low defense spending.
Everybody has low defence spending compared to the US
The 2018 World "Happiness Index" ranking 156-countries:
Denmark- #3
U.S.- # 18, having fallen from #14.
3
Butter republic. Social democracy. Sounds like some small country insignificant country.
Would like to remind you that Denmark is home to A.P. Moller-Maersk, the largest container ship company in the world. Look up their triple E ships.
And, yes, they do produce butter and cheese.
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@K. Sorensen
It is the largest shipping company of any kind. The emphasis here on butter and cheese is misleading (although I understand the need for effect). Denmark produces a lot of high tech machinery and instrumentation. It is the world leader in windfarm technology. I am happy to say this as a Norwegian, not a Dane.
I like your point on microeconomics. This is where the University of Chicago has abandoned academic honesty to pretend simple economic theories can adequately explain complex economic reality. That Nobel prizes were awarded makes one wonder what Alfred Nobel would have thought.
2
Make America Great Again...
When were we great? Many say the decade or two after WWII.
Sure, we had the world to ourselves. Money flowing in like a tsunami.
Dynamic, aggressive business, a population reaching unheard of levels of production; a capitalist's dream.
You now what else we had? Top tax on income around 90%. A commitment to building the best, most aesthetically pleasing (if you love the serial abominations of International style) infrastructure.
We had good schools. And government that somehow believed it would be wise to take care of the (white, male) population. And fair(er) pay.
Those taxes, that education and infrastructure did nothing to decrease productivity or work force participation. An argument could be made they were the bedrock upon which the economy was built.
Now we protect tax scammers like they were priests. We sold of much of our corporate infrastructure to foreigners who run overseas with the profits. We squashed Federal income by decreasing taxes on income to negligible levels and we refuse to tax investment or wealth at reasonable levels.
Take your cheese, if you like. Give us rotting schools, bridges falling into the Mississippi, and a built environment that, whatever you call it, is truly brutal.
Ugliness, transactional relationships, corporations like Apple (lauded here in Harvard terms for running away from the people and the nation who spawned it) that hide their smirking faces when they claim to be American companies.
2
Some folks wonder why the faculties of academic institutions lean left. Profs are bright people many of whom could be earning a good deal more if they'd entered another profession, but as it is they enjoy job security and ample time to pursue interests that really matter to them--a good trade-off in their view. There are other people who resent this arrangement and would like to destroy universities by replacing the tenure system with the gig economy.
Academia is. in a word, the closest one can come to living in a social democracy here in the U.S. Ask Paul Krugman.
3
Forget the economics, think exercise, the delight of spending time in a completely difference social, linguistic and geographic location and eating whatever good things that Danish cooking has to to offer - cheese Danishes perhaps?
I think it's important to note that what works in one country may not work in another. People are different, not just from country to country, but from city to city. Across America, for instance, there are various businesses or trends that do well in one town, but fail 50 miles away. In Alexandria, VA is a small restaurant called Hard Times Cafe. Opened in 1980, Hard Times sells chili served atop spaghetti. Known as a chili mac, people have flocked to Hard Times for almost 40 years. But it doesn't travel well. In Philadelphia, a mere 150 miles up the road, you'll be hard pressed to find a bowl of chili, let alone one on the scale of Hard Times. But why? Are the people that different? Yes. And not just about food. So when we look at economics we must also consider that X factor.
In America, we run a near $1 trillion trade deficit with the remaining world. This drives President Trump crazy. But why? Our unemployment rate is historically low. Our economy is booming. So why all the fuss from Trump? He doesn't understand the basic concept of money. He thinks that if his business buys $100 in goods from your business, you should reciprocate. But in America, we have a very unique consumer driven economy. Our trade deficit with the world, and especially China, is actually good for us. Good luck trying to explain that to a man who doesn't read.
6
I find relating the global commerce by Denmark with that of our nation problematic. You write that Denmark imports raw materials to make value added finished products, but the opposite is true here as we Americans import far too many finished products with the benefits of added value going to the foreign exporters sending us those goods profiting and warping our trade deficit.
To remotely compare what works in a nation like Denmark would work here is fantasy. In Denmark you have a small country, small homogeneous population and a nation that couldn’t be more different than ours. Almost guaranteed that Denmark’s economy can’t be replicated here.
1
Of course it can. What has homogeneity to do with anything, and why is size a disadvantage? Do we spend more than the Danes on the military and less on vacation because we're less homogeneous? As Kissinger liked to ask, on what theory?
We have social security in this country. But for the legacy of slavery — and attendant racism among southern Democrats 70 years ago — we would have universal healthcare, too. We created the first EPA, and banned lead from gasoline decades before the Europeans. We invented democracy itself, the ancients notwithstanding. Until the the 20th century, conventional wisdom among the European elite was that the United States wouldn't last long.
The United States is bigger than any European country. It's therefore convenient for naysayers to discount any European success by saying we're too big, can't work here. But the evidence stands against. Not only is size no disadvantage, but Europe itself shows, in the EU, that a larger more diverse population can work harmoniously. Witness the recent anti-trust action against Google.
5
"In Denmark you have a small country, small homogeneous population and a nation that couldn’t be more different than ours."
Tautologies are so nice.
"Liberals say they want us to be less different from Denmark. But we CAN'T be less different from Denmark, because Denmark is so different from us!"
1
@James K. Lowden
very well argued. thank you.
I find relating the global commerce by Denmark with that of our nation problematic. You write that Denmark imports raw materials to make value added finished products, but the opposite is true here as we Americans import far too many finished products with the benefits of added value going to the foreign exports profiting and warping our trade deficit.
Note: Denmark's taxes are 46%, ours are 26%--but we spend 20% on heath care--so if we call health care a tax--which it is--a payment we make to participate in civil society--we are taxed at 46%, too...
And our cheese and butter aren't as good...
4
Well, you'll roll your eyes, but Denmark is actually a monarchy, not a republic. But good article anyway!
3
Eh. Denmark (like Britain and most European "monarchies") isn't *really* a monarchy. It's a republic with a state-sponsored mascot family.
For the reverse phenomenon, see Syria and North Korea. Republics that aren't *really* republics, but rather hereditary monarchies whose kings happen to have the title "president" (or whatever the heck the Kims have come up with).
@CP - My comment was to poke fun at Mr. Krugman's article title, which itself was a play on "banana republic." But even a pedantic person could not call Denmark a "republic." The official name of the country is the Kingdom of Denmark, and of course it's a constitutional monarchy. But it's not a republic. It has a state religion, of which the reigning monarch is the head. Technically the monarch is also the commander in chief of the Danish military. And of course the monarch's actual power is greatly circumscribed.
@CP the prime difference between US and Denmark is that we have a head of state (queen Margereth the 2nd) and a head of government statsminister (Lars Løkke Rasmussen). You have one figure covering the same two positions. That is closer to the 1750 English system with a inherited king and the house of commons ((house of rep.) and the house of Lords (Senat).
So Mr. Krugman now spends his vacation in a country that Bernie, declared to be over the edge by Paul,, held up as a model for the US ?
1
You can't seriously be comparing the Danish economy to that of the USA. Denmark is more like a family business than a country. Of course they are willing to pay a high tax rate. That is what families do. They help each other. That is just not the case in the USA.
2
a family with 5.7 million people....
granted, the US with 320 million is vastly more complicated. but libertarians type like to cite Hong Kong and Singapore as ultra-free market models (not true, btw) and they are about the same size.
2
So what's the big deal about a display of cheeses in a shop in Copenhagen? I can see the exact same cheese display in any Whole Foods store in Manhattan.
1
How does a socialist economy do in comparison with a capitalist society .
Lets look at the numbers. Of which the most important one is the GPD per capita, the best measures the standard of living economists have
Country GDP per capita 2018
US $ 53,129
Denmark $ 61,582
So Denmark, dismissed by Hillary Clinton as a model for the US (We are not Denmark) does better than the US.
Finally, lets address a point, that Mr. Krugman left out : Denmark practiced austerity to get out of the financial crisis . Mr. Krugman, taking them to task, posing as an expert on their economy wrote this, in the NY Times in 2015, quote
"What explains this poor recent performance? The answer, mainly, is bad monetary and fiscal policy. ....while the country has faced no market pressure to slash spending — Denmark can borrow long-term at an interest rate of only 0.84 percent — it has adopted fiscal austerity anyway." (P.K. NY Times, 10/19/2015
Let's just say this: The Danes knew what they were doing
Austerity worked for them, as it did for Germany.
@Woof, let's be clear: Germany EXPORTED the results of its austerity to Southern Europe.
the EURO vastly subsidizes German export products at the expense of Southern Europe export products. this is because the EURO is a blended currency. A Germany-only DM would have a higher valuation, thus German exports would be more expensive. And the reverse (lower valuation) for Italy, Spain, Greece, Portugal currencies, thus better export pricing.
During the crisis, Germany benefited from this. But there was no EU wide fiscal policy, which would have assisted Southern Europe. Dr. Krugman has discussed this many times: in the US, Florida still got Social Security and Medicare payments. In the EU, there were no "shared" payments of this type.
1
Other industrialized countries have so much to teach the US. But the US doesn't study healthcare, infrastructure, educational systems, etc of those countries. There is always a "yes, but". The US should look at other systems and say, "how can we make this work?" Instead of being reactive, kicking the can down the road, and lining the pockets of those in power, the public good is always the goal.
5
While Canada is officially a federal parliamentary democracy, the socialist democracy label fits quite nicely to describe our country's political system.
Only a very few of our politicians would dare to go against our fundamental principles of universal health care, or try to rip our tightly woven social fabric that allows the needs of the few to be met by the wallets of the many. (Our new Premier in Ontario is the exception, not the rule, thank goodness.)
And while I conceptually understand the need for the U.S. to condemn the concept, and know historically the U.S. was built on individualism, at what point does the overall good of the majority of the people in a country supersede the "needs" of a small fraction of the population that require more and more billions in personal wealth - which they may share (Gates) or may not (Trump)?
5
Makes me proud to have some Danish heritage. Make me hungry for Danish cheese.n their beer, and pastries are pretty awesome, too. Socialism has been the key to Denmark's brand of success, and happiness. Let's admit that we aren't doing so well, these days, and learn from countries who are enjoying enduring, widespread success, for all their people, not just the rich.
5
The hallmark of capitalism is a free market. The engine of Denmark's economic success, and the reason it has accumulated sufficient wealth to afford generous social-welfare programs, is its embrace of competitive free markets both at home and in the global economy. In many respects, Denmark is less socialist and more capitalist than the U.S. Plus, the homogeneity of its Nordic population makes the enactment of social-welfare programs easier than in a diversified population as in America.
Professor Krugman didn't even mention free markets. Didn't he notice the lack of regulations except by competition?. Look at all those lovely cheeses from competing dairy farmers.
1
Re Danish pronunciation: the Danes share some linguistic features with Scandanavians and other Baltic nations, which accounts for the "y" sounding like "oo" (as in moot). As for Brahe, how did you think it was pronounced? We don't pronounce the "e" in like"; final "e"s are often silent. So it really is quite natural (unlike German).
@jess
More than 'some linguistic features'. Norwegian Riksmal is really very similar to Danish. I had a great aunt (born in Norway in 1905) who sounded very 'Danish'. Unkind folk used to say it sounds like a disease of the throat and it is the subject of many jokes in Sweden and Norway - but I like it.
We are not Denmark
H.R. Clinton, in response to Sanders in praise of Denmark
Sanders over the Edge
Paul Krugman, in response Sanders
4
What did you need make a payment on your SUV?
@Mike Benghazi!
1
To get the real skinny on Denmark's version of social democracy, watch The Simpsons S29 E20 Throw Grampa From the Dane.
https://fox.tv/2vGFkmr
You’re absolutely right, Paul. The Danish language, like French, sounds nothing like the way its words are spelled. I speak German, which definitely has rules for pronouncing sounds. I also know the basics of Swedish, which although it drops certain sounds at the end of some words and adds sounds to some consonants that aren’t reflected in the spelling, also has rules for when these occur. Spoken Danish seems totally unrelated to its spelling.
That being said, I’d take the Danish way of life over the American any day.
4
Why is Danish less phonetic than German? Can't answer the "why", but several authors explain a bit of the "how". Danish has gone farther even than the other Scandinavian languages in shedding whole syllables from words, (if they follow a stressed vowel). And the listener not only misses the syllables that get dropped, he also has a hard time even figuring out the boundaries of these eroded words. While German keeps words distinct by inserting a glottal stop before any word that begins with a vowel, Scandinavian languages and especially Danish smooth them out, with with weak, or even no cues for word and syllable boundaries. The result is bits of words smoothed into a stream of sound. And it gets worse, for there's a stress system which can result in whole phrases disappearing into a barely audible blur.
Dr. Krugman can take comfort over any difficulties he may have encountered with spoken Danish, since even Danish children are perplexed by the language. http://cphpost.dk/life-in-denmark/the-danish-languages-irritable-vowel-s...
Editor’s note: This comment has been anonymized in accordance with applicable law(s).
1
Taxes in Scandanavian countries benefit all the people but because of Democrats, I believe, taxes in the US benefits only those who do not pay taxes. This has created class warfare, which does not promote social democracy.
The biggest examples are Obamacare and Medicaid. Medicaid gives the poor an insurance policy that the rich could not even purchase. Everything is covered, no deductible and no copays. Obamacare is worse. Those who pay the taxes to support the subsidies can only get $6,000 deductible poor insurance while the subsidized can have their deductibles and copays forgiven.
If the US created programs that benefited everyone equally perhaps there would be less resistance to taxes.
2
@Jon Tons of Americans want to see single payer Medicare for all Americas, which means that everyone has affordable health insurance, a basic right of being American. Republicans, of course, refuse to consider the concept, because they haven't figured a way to steal from it. Besides, God meant for the sick, poor and old to die if they can't afford healthcare. Right? Besides, many players in healthcare (big pharma, etc.) are paying off politicians to prevent it. It's nothing less than organized crime, but after all, the knuckledragging hordes voted for them, right?
2
Danish and German have common roots in an antecedent "Old German" Ur language. This split into four subsequent developing trees of language: East, Central, and West German, and something called North German.
English comes off of the West German branch, and Danish from North German. I'm a fan of Danish TV, which you can now stream in the US. I speak some German, and some Danish phrases are "almost German". I'll be watching the subtitles, and recognize what was said. As a rule the more "basic" the word, the closer it resembles German.
2
@OSS Architect A fun thing in around the 4th Century the anglo saxens migrated to the british isles. They come from the continent and most people know where the saxens came from but few know the anglicans came from. Right norht of Kiel and South of Flensburg in Northern Germany there is a peninsula called Anglen. the dialect spoken there is more English sounding and the syntax is more English. I speak the Danish derivation of that dialect.
Also, Germany could also be used as a positive role model in many ways. They still manufacture products more than the US does, and have a big trade surplus with the US.
While the US weakens unions, Germany has union reps on corporate boards with input to policy.
As the Times has reported, their high schools partner with emplyers to train kids in apprenticeships along with academic school work, so after they graduate they can earn a living. This has positive ripple effects on their lives and social stability.
And college tuition is not a debt creator.
During recessions German companies don't lay people off, creating financial distress for workers. Instead people work shorter hours, and the govt subsidizes them temporarily until economy normalizes. This is considered a worthwhile expense, instead of just throwing workers on the trash heap. It preserves jobs, skills, and worker/employer bonds. Just the opposite of the US.
So, less polarization, more cohesion on basic economics.
They also spend more on green energy, infrastructure, roads, and public transportation---all crucial components of a successful economy, that the US neglects.
8
This article co-enc-ides with another article in today's paper. "What are Capitalist's thinking". Both article's elaborate on why our current Capitalistic system isn't working for the average American.
We're like gerbils on the wheel. Not able to get ahead no matter how much we try. (Think of our huge college debt). We haven't shared in the huge rise in Corporate profits, or the huge tax cuts for the wealthy.
Some of us are in debt up to our eyeballs. Others are still driving the same car for ten years.
Things that happened for our parents and grandparents aren't there for us any more: i.e. the GI bill, pensions, raises. promotions, etc.
So, no wonder that Social Democracy is sounding pretty good. Free tuition, Medicare for all, Child care, Family leave, etc.
It's time to share the wealth.
5
No where does the author note that the Danes and other Scandinavian countries are getting fed up with the recent immigrants sucking off their socialist benefits. It will be interesting to see how that pans out.
1
GDP per capita may be lower in Denmark than in the US, but a quick search for median income by country shows (https://news.gallup.com/poll/166211/worldwide-median-household-income-00... the median household income is higher in Denmark, and the median per-capita income is almost 18% higher. Funny how income equality works.
3
I have lived four years in Christiania, Denmark.
Christiania is the best-organized alternative society in the word after Chiapas.
Denmark is the best "normal" society in the world, period.
Ok, Norway too.
6
The social justice seen in Denmark is NOT the product of globalization. Quite the contrary. They are struggling to preserve it in the face of even limited globalization pressure. Access to Danish markets is FAR from open to foreign producers.
2
Has Dr. Krugman ever considered taking Epo on his bicycling excursions. He might even get a grant from the USPS for this. As a famous economist he could then parlay this into a job running the Post Office. They're in the red, but could easily be in the black (even I could do this). From there a balanced budget...the policy would be adding strength to strength, especially in a low unemployment economy, and with single payer this would be even easier, as it would save $trillions.
Probably need a Maria Butina-like photo to get the appointment thru congress. Republicans really ate those pictures up.
Denmark(and Sweden) are doing well. Doing even better are Scandinavian Americans!
Ahem...
German words don't all sound the way they are spelled either. Take for example the word "German" which is pronounced "Doytcht". Not at all like the proper English spoken on the Thames river.
;-)
Replace the ending "t" in your toy-German "Doytcht" with an "e" and you'll have a reasonable-sounding facsimile of "Deutsche" which in my experience is pronounced exactly the way it's spelled.
I really don't get your comment....
1
@Remember in November
Wink wink nudge nudge
When we try to apply Latin letters with English pronunciations to languages that are older than both and mix in the confusion of translations carried by ship in a pre-Edison world things get confused. So go to the Temes river and contemplate why Beijing was named Peking, Firenza was named Florence, and Amerigo Vespucci had his name so badly polluted.
But you are right. I miss-typed an extra t.
One trip to France and blocks of cheese like these will never look the same....
1
I love that you somehow managed to get Tyco Brahe into your column!
I think he was the Danish royal that felt so strongly that getting up to go to the bathroom in the middle of a meal was a sign of weakness that he simply refused to do it. Unfortunately, he was also a heaver drinker. He ultimately developed a condition in which his urine leaked into his bloodstream, killing him, but leaving his pride forever unblemished.
1
And you've gotta love the nose prosthetic...
Of course, Denmark is a butter kingdom, not a butter republic...
4
Withdrawal from the "nerd" world the writer of this article inhabits is very difficult, even on vacation in Denmark. I went online and found a site that may help Mr. Krugman. He can find it, @databasefreecyclingthroughdemark. Leave it to the Danes to have a solution. Start vacationing now Mr. Krugman. RAW
1
While GDP per capita is lower in Denmark than in the US, the proceeds of GDP is more uniformly distributed, where in the US, the bulk of proceeds are distributed to the gilded class of its population.
3
I have always preferred a good Danish. Let's serve some up here! The Danes pay 46%in taxes and have more disposable income comparatively than we do paying 26% in taxes. Very sensible Social Democratic path. As long as we have one breathing radical political party such as the GOP this path is not available to us.
5
@DENOTE MORDANT And your tax does not include educaton (college) and your employer pay half your Socioal security and 2/3 of your HC, which s included in our
Capitalism is like fire. Fire can be an extremely useful too, which in primitive times, thousands of years ago, allowed the caveman to cook food and keep his shelter warm. In modern times, fire is important in manufacturing, industries like steel have to melt metal etc. But as good a thing as fire can be, it can also destroy, by burning down your house, if not properly controlled on your stovetop. The problem with the Republican/Conservative view of capitalism today is that they are totally against any financial regulations, what so ever, no matter how small. They want a Darwinism type of economic system, survival of the fittest, the weak just die off, no social safety net for the poor, unemployed, elderly, retired or middle class (the vast majority of people). The GOP claims there is no money for infrastructure spending to repair and maintain or roads, bridges and tunnels and power grids, etc., but they just passed a $1.5 Trillion dollar tax cut where 80% of the benefits go to corporations and the richest 1%. Capitalism as a socio-economic system would work much better if it is reasonably regulated and controlled, a more fair and progressive tax system, laws that protect consumers, a strong labor/union movement to counter management and the owners of capital. Forced arbitration clauses, upheld by courts, is the newest thing that is stacking the deck against average people and favors corporations and the rich. Capitalism, like uncontrolled fire, is burning everything down now
4
Exactly this.
After a century of class wars in all their various forms, it ought to be clear that the question isn't "socialism or capitalism?" but rather "what combination of socialism or capitalism?" Most left-wingers ("socialists"), at least in the West, have grokked this for a long time now. It's a pity that most right-wingers ("capitalists") in America point-blank refuse to.
Dictionaries and their digital equivalents are wonderful things, the left wing of the Democratic Party should give them a try.
As the good professor points out, progressive Democrats are mostly Social Democrats, not Democratic Socialists. In general, they don't call for the government to control the means of production. This includes Bernie and many other prominent liberals. They call for a single-payer health system (Medicare for all), not for socialized medicine (as in the UK's National Health Service, or our VA health system). Social Democratic policies are no more radical or scary than our ever-popular Medicare and Social Security.
When so much as it stake, why are leading Democrats painting targets on their own backs by wrongly proclaiming themselves to be socialists? I realize that many voters don't know the definition of socialism, but there are many voters of a certain age that remember what the second letter of USSR stood for and, therefore, "know" that socialism is evil (whatever it is). Those voters still vote in large numbers, so why needlessly alienate them?
... Why do Danes speak the way they do? Many of their Scandinavian neighbors will quickly answer that Danish isn't a language; it's a throat disease. You might try Norwegian instead, it's like Danish for English speakers.
2
Danes don't pronounce the first 2 letters of a word, or the last 3 letters of a word. Words with less than 5 letters are often skipped. It is a private language used only among intimate locals.
4
Dr. Krugman,
Surely you know that "banana republic" refers specifically to Central American dictatorships whose economies relied heavily on one cash crop: Bananas, and where the company that oversaw the production of that crop was vested with powers equal to the government beside which it operated.
Argentina doesn't rely on bananas and has a diversified economy.
3
As in physics, there are major differences between open- and closed-systems. I'm afraid we'ill need to close our socio-economic system a bit, which includes our borders, before we can expect to see reforms that could bring us in lne with Europe, Japan, New Zealand, South Korea, etc.. These countries are like old growth forests and we're like waves of weedy succession at a construction site. A bottomless labor pool does not support sustainability models for our natural and human resources.
2
Mr. Krugman when I saw the title of today's column I wrongly assumed you were going to discuss the conflict between 'guns vs. butter'. Denmark puts a great emphasis on 'butter'-- consumer goods and well being of its citizens. Here in the US military spending is given much higher priority than programs aimed at providing healthcare, education and opportunity to our citizens. When it comes to 'guns vs. butter' here in the US 'guns' is the clear winner.
5
Very interesting and informative post. It provides insight into how a predominantly agricultural country can flourish by supplying predominantly industrial countries nearby. That, and having enlightened democratic political leadership making wise choices for the common good -- typical of Scandinavian socialism.
But there is an unsettling contemporary question: whether this social solidarity is founded on ethnic homogeneity. (That's NOT intended as a rhetorical question.)
Denmark is now forced, for better or worse, to confront this problem:
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/01/world/europe/denmark-immigrant-ghetto...
Surely the answer depends on strengthening socially integrative institutions such as schools (and voluntary organizations), in addition to universal conscription. Ironically, even a largely symbolic monarchy may assist, especially if its marriage patterns embody the ethnic diversity of the nation.
2
One of the reasons Danes are OK paying such high taxes is that they see themselves getting something back: education, health care, retirement, unemployment insurance. Means testing tends to make taxes feel like outbound only transfers.
6
@Harold: what a strange comment. I have lived here in Denmark for 10 years and -never- heard anyone say that they feel unified because of...conscription. Certainly not my Danish husband who instead of military training opted to deliver books for the Royal Library. The unity here has a lot more to do with the recognition of how it's in your own interest to build and see your entire community thrive.
9
Danish butter sounds good and pure to consumers; butter from the Bronx wouldn’t have the same appeal.
I lived in Germany for 3 years and completely understand and saw on a daily basis that the most of Western Europe, especially Northern Europe, have a much better quality of life than the average person in the United States. If the Dane's would take me, I'd just take a few days to tidy up my affairs and leave America without a backward glance at this very backward and mean spirited place.
18
@Sasha Love, Right behind you. I'd also go for any N. European country right about now. Almost 100 shootings last weekend in Chicago. What have we become?
5
@Lee We've become a country full of 'deplorables', that's what.
The photo of the cheeses could have been taken at my local Trader Joe's.
2
Danish ingenuity: long ago Danish friend, was doing his military service, he commanded a squadron of tanks.
In the middle of a very cold winter there were war games. My friend defended a crucial pass. He had to hide the tanks. The attack could be days away.
He made a deal with a farmer,: if I can hide my tanks in your barn, we'll help you with the chores.
Sentries were posted, the farmer's wife cooked delicious food and the farmer was happy to have
so many helpers.
When the attack came, the tanks roared out of the barn, driven by well fed crews. The enemy
was defeated.
Could that have happened in the USA?
ancient Canadian
4
I visited Denmark over 30 years ago. It was a beautiful place to visit then and the people were lovely. Their public spaces were clean. I didn't smell garbage the way I smell it here. And no one looked as discontented and unhappy as we looked even then.
Living in America has become rat race. We're frightened for our jobs, frightened about our economic security, can't save money, cannot count on being able to receive medical care when and where we need it much less pay for it, pay for our college education without taking out loans, or plan for the the future.
Socialism doesn't solve every problem there is in a country. But the type of capitalism being practiced in America, cutthroat capitalism, is destroying this country. Watergate put us on the road to Trump. Maybe we need another Watergate to force us to reconsider if the type of society we're creating with the GOP controlling both houses of Congress, the majority of governorships in the United States, and the White House is survivable by any but the richest.
Then again, we can be like Scrooge and then find ourselves living in workhouses or homeless, in chronic physical pain, and with nothing. And, make no mistake about it, as jobs become harder to find and retain and pay less because employers can, life in America will become much more like Dickensian England, the poor part of it.
4
Denmark is nice, but I wouldn't live there.
1. I appreciate sunlight year round
2. I can drink an unplanned beer with an uninhibited neo nazi but that doesn't mean I could do it everyday without punching him in the face.
I've read many articles on Denmark and the Scandinavian countries and their high taxes together with VAT of 25%. However, if I compare my family of four with that of my american friends this picture changes. Because if you look at their contributions to 529(k) college plans, childcare, healthcare insurance , student debt and road pricing they are likely to have to the same amount by the end of the month as their danish counterparts despite their low taxes. So "taxes" for the middle class is a relative term.
7
Yes, we have socialism in the US--in favor of the 1%:
We socialize risk and privatize profit.
Since W. J. Clinton, and even more so since the judicial collapse of campaign finance regulation, both parties have been pro business, pro multinational, pro capitalist class. The middle class and poor have been getting an incredibly raw deal. Lobbying to, and campaign finance leverage on, politicians have tilted both reduced risk and increased return in favor of moneyed interests.
This is not the only way to construct a society. The middle class and poor are finally angry. Unfortunately, as they are, by necessity, completely focused on simply making it from day to day, week to week, their anger is easily misdirected and fanned by political opportunists.
There is so much dysfunction in the US political economy right now that it is hard to have any optimism at all. But, it is good to be reminded that there are some countries, like Denmark, that are working reasonably well and that we can look to for inspiration.
12
Very accurate. I've read the comments of business leaders praising Trump for reducing financial, environmental etc regulations. Less regulation=good. Except that society at large still has to pay the social, medical and environmental costs. Fatter profits and the 99% pick up the costs.
3
Before we all get too excited about the joys of life in Denmark, read this Times article: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/01/world/europe/denmark-immigrant-ghetto...
2
Psssst--Paul: Denmark is not really a country, but a vassal state (like Canada) of the US, or as things are going--of Russia. Krugman needs to tell us how to beat the Pentagon into plowshares. or how to keep the Bear from running riot in fattened Europe--now that Trump is calling in favors. That black hole in the US budget is the Pentagon/CIA. Reduce that to Danish proportions, and we can give everyone both a chicken and a pot. But how to keep the Bear from robbing the pot, that is the question. I trust Venezuela is next on the itinerary?
1
The “Social democracy : Democratic socialism” is a mirror reflection of each other? No. Though, it can rotate around the : mark, then, it can turn again around the second , symbol to make Denmark. I apologize for misunderstandings if any, but I’m as serious as ... Danish products .. (which is my temptation to say... no, I say instead)... all other subscribers.
The problem with the Nordic countries is that their model cannot be exported to bigger, more diverse countries.
Denmark, Norway, ... are still today very much closed cultures for better (respect for women, cycling, murder makes national news, ...) or for worse (e.g. high suicide rates, difficult to integrate as immigrant).
America had a great model going too but for the last 40 years, Republican presidents and congresses have had a much bigger impact on America than Democratic ones. The erosion of everything that makes a society advanced (infrastructure, healthcare, education, ...) has been the result of one-way Democratic moderatism and bipartisanship vs. Republicans who stopped compromising decades ago.
And yet, today, Democrats are still debating whether to stick with the same moderate course instead of giving way to the progressive wing.
4
@Anne
Their model is basically the same as Canada's, so of course income equality and a strong safety net don't have anything to do with color of skin ...
And when you're living in remote and cold regions, you naturally tend to have a lower population and less people migrating to your country, of course. The hypothesis that Denmark would have a "closed culture" doesn't have anything to do with its daily reality.
2
@Anne
The US suicide rate is much higher than Norway's and that of Denmark. Guns, you see. Not sure about difficulty as an immigrant but I really don't see it (I am a Norwegian living in UK) as a 'closed culture'. Oslo is about 25-30% immigrant.
How is the Danish composition changing with immigration?
What is the attitude of the Danes towards immigrants who are not white? I think these are important factors that determine public policy. Is it not safe to assume relative homogeneity in Denmark up until recently? If so, wouldn't that explain the success of public policy?
1
@g
Racism is increasing indeed, in the West, so also in Denmark.
But as far as I know, no Danish citizen is asking its government to start making education and healthcare so expensive that quality of life for the average citizen goes down, just because a minority is becoming racist ... ;-)
So if you see a link between immigration/racism and strong social security, what would that be, concretely ... ?
1
Perhaps the better Monty Python analogy is the "Cheese Shop" skit from Flying Circus days. America is definitely the cheese shop with no cheese to sell, and yet those in power keep selling it to those who prefer such contrived scarcity to "give aways" to "undeserving" people, aka Americans with the wrong skin color or Hispanic, Asian, Arab, Jewish, indigenous or other non-European ancestry.
2
The Danes didn't muck up their pronoun
navigation. It was the British traders who transcribed it poorly. You know, the forefathers of the folks that created a half dozen anglifications of Chinese to finally get it halfway right.
It's always the same: look at this well-run welfare State.
Look again in 50 years. In 100.
There are already hints that all is not well: draconian parenting laws in Norway, with officials convicted of downloading child porn. Possible racism among those officials regarding immigrants. Watch out for more!
1
@Daedalus
How much of this is different than what we see stateside?
3
@The Yankee Sure, people are the same everywhere. Some get to play with other people's lives. Some get to do so behind the facade of a benevolent state.
"Look again in 50 years"
This IS in 50 years.
I've heard this trope so many times I could scream!
The US is LESS diverse than Canada and the major European social democracies : under 12% foreign born residents versus up to 14%. Some smaller countries like Switzerland and microstates like Singapore have close to 30% foreign born residents. The common theme? All have better health care outcomes than the US and most have much better social services.
The "diverse"/"homogeneous" euphemism really means other countries don't have "lazy blacks" and "criminal mexicans". The racist code words are only used by the lazy who prefer that US economic and social policies remain broken, to their exclusive benefit.
And size was and is an asset when the US developed the New Deal Social Security programmes, Medicare and Medicaid. Or is the size argument just a lazy way to avoid factual comparisons?
#excuses
#fakenews
7
@AndyI understand your point, but don't scream. A country's population may be 10 or 20 or 50 percent foreign-born, but they do not represent as many countries from around the world as we find in the U.S., historically or currently. In 2050 the U.S. will cease being white-majority, if it hasn't already. Europe and Canada do not even come close.
Take this example: an estimated 400 languages are spoken in London. In New York City, that number may be 800. Proportionately, Toronto is probably more advanced than that. Paris does not come close.
Still, I am with you on social democracy. Diversity is a poor excuse for a lack of health insurance, college affordability, and economic security. Everybody needs those - in that regard, the 340 million of us Americans are alike, not diverse!
2
@Andy, “foreign born” is not the same as “diverse”. Diversity in the U.S. is almost entirely defined by racial classification, not country of birth. European countries are far less diverse than the U.S. by that measure.
3
@Airman
See my original comment on euphemism and racism. You've just supported my comment. Why do I have to even explai
Wish more Americans could appreciate how higher taxes are a good thing for the health and happiness of a Nation and for all its citizens. The current fly in the ointment is precisely because it is such a great place to live and work the influx of refugees is causing resentments among the more racist Danes just as it inflames our own Republicans.
4
Well, Dr. K, I hope you take the ferry to Hven, where Tyco had his HQ. No cars allowed, so you can continue to cycle.
My husband and I lived in Copenhagen 2007-2010. We were awestruck by the results of a country that actually cares about the welfare of its people—medical care, family leave, subsidized daycare by licensed professionals (much of it in museums and outdoors), wonderful integrated public transportation, investments in public education and the study of English.
The only thing apparently missing was a global outlook—or as the head of the International School at the time told me, Denmark suffers from “island mentality.”
1
Ba-haaa! You are SO right about this: nothing in Danish is pronounced remotely the way the spelling suggests to an English speaker.
I lived in Aarhus for six months in 2002 and took a Danish language course (their government covers this cost for all immigrants). Matching what I read on the page with the sounds from the teacher's mouth eluded me. When watching a Danish movie with English subtitles, the actors would make a brief and mumbled remark, but the translation would be about five lines of text.
Danes can hear sounds that we cannot.
3
Danes are famous for mumbling.
2
One of the things about this column that really stands out is the lack of abject poverty. I increasingly hear about the lack of affordable housing and it is not just in places like New York and San Fransisco. The poor in this country are being pushed out of the urban areas, have problems finding housing and transportation and they suffer because nutritious food is not available and when it is, it is expensive. Perhaps we could learn something from the Danes in this respect.
6
Yeah, spoken Danish is somethin' else. The good thing is that the Danes don't expect visitors to speak it, realizing that if you didn't master it as a child, you probably never will. And most of them speak a second language anyway, usually English.
It’s worse. I went to school in Denmark when I was a boy. I learned to read and write the language and really improved my conversational ability having learned it from my Danish father. I learned Swedish from my mother. I believe my Danish to be better than my Swedish. I have always had an ear for languages. A few years back I visited both Sweden and Denmark for the first time in many years. Swedes never failed to compliment me on my Swedish. The response from Danes was never better than “at least you’re trying”. In that respect Danes are like the Japanese in that they don’t believe it is possible for non-natives to speak the language properly.
Conservatives and Libertarians love to howl about the evils of socialist. However, many of their constituents actually love some of our democratic socialist programs. Yes - we have them. Medicare and Social Security are wildly popular - yet both groups would drastically reduce or eliminate them. The elderly in any kind of skilled care facility are overwhelmingly dependent on Medicaid - another "socialistic" type of program. Farmers are set to receive 12 billion dollars as compensation for the Administration's tariff policy - doesn't that reek of socialist? The Conservative and Libertarian mantra that people should basically fend for themselves, and if they are poor, sick without insurance, elderly and in need of care, disabled, unemployed - you name it-it's really your fault for being both unlucky and undeserving. You simply didn't work hard enough. You simply want others to "pay for you". The Democratic Socialist model displays the notion that the common good has value. That is a notion the Republican Party seems to have forgotten.
6
Could it be that Denmark's long-term success has something to do with not being a CIA target in support of US corporations the way that Argentina was?
1
Thank you—we need examples like this, and more. Our politics and the media avoid positive role models from abroad. Even Bernie Sanders could have used it much more.
Sanders briefly cited Denmark in one of the debates, and Hillary proudly proclaimed to the nation that “America is not Denmark!” She got the last word---no comparisons or discussion.
And a senate hearing with Sanders I caught on cspan a few years ago, on “health care in other countries”, had witnesses from Denmark, Canada, France etc. All hardly mentioned by the media, and strangely, Sanders didn’t use it in his 2016 campaign. It could have given us valuable data on how to finance h/c for all.
Abroad, tax supported govt benefits extend to the middle class, not just the poor---in h/c, child benefits, education, etc. Thus they have more political cohesion, less US style resentment and polarization.
In democracies like Denmark, etc, their politicians don’t just turn their campaigns over to the richest donors for financing. Thus they’re freed up to represent the citizen majority in lawmaking. Democracy 101.
Their citizens are not manipulated to resent and mistrust the govt they elect. Here we allow the massive transfer of power and wealth up to elites as a norm. esp after the Citizen United decision.
US media is timid about talk of evidence of other capitalist democracies' support average citizens. So Paul, how does Denmark finance their health care for all? That's right up your alley as an economist!
4
What Krugman, the greatest economic quack of all time, fails to mention is this: capitalism and socialism can co-exist at the same time. In fact, to even have a chance at success, socialism NEEDS capitalism--as a revenue source. It gives socialism something to burglarize.
And of course, left out of his praise of Denmark, is just how capitalistic Denmark is. Their corporate tax rate is currently 22%--the same, coincidentally as Sweden. Isn't it curious--how Krugman so vociferously rails against the Trump tax cuts as a "give-away to the wealthy", yet all the countries he admires have similar LOW tax rates?
https://tradingeconomics.com/denmark/corporate-tax-rate
https://tradingeconomics.com/sweden/corporate-tax-rate
Where the great difference between the U.S., Denmark and Scandinavia show up, is in the personal income tax rates. The countries beloved by Krugman, Bernie Sanders and the other Democratic Socialists, have very high personal income tax rates--while giving more favorable rates to corporations.
But also keep this in mind: the citizens of countries where Democratic Socialism has taken root have free health care, and very low (if not free) college costs--but have scant disposable income.
I recently took a trip to Italy-where I met scores of American tourists--but none from Denmark or Scandinavia. That's because they live in "pocket-change societies". When was the last time any readers here met a Danish or Swedish tourist in the U.S? Never.
1
@Jesse The Conservative
"socialism NEEDS capitalism--as a revenue source. It gives socialism something to burglarize."
But its not burglary at all! Its called INFRASTRUCTURE, which makes all of your wealth accumulation possible. And, frankly, in every rich country besides the US, its also called KEEPING THE PEACE, due to capitalism's tendency to go bezerk with greed and technological innovations that create devastating inequality.
But you keep voting for your low taxes and watch the decay that you see now turn into 2/3rds of this country becoming the Third World, and we'll see who's getting burglarized then.
And who in the US has any "disposable income" today except the ultra rich? Any same person who isn't a millionaire is hoarding every nickel for unexpected illness and a completely uncertain future once they are too old to work. Or they have kids, trying to pay for college. Look out!
"Disposable Income"? You gotta be kidding me!
I'd take ANY hint of retirement security or reasonable education over disposable income any day of the week, and so would practically everyone else I know!
3
@Jesse The Conservative
Well that settles it. You went to Italy and did not meet any Scandinavians. This clearly means Scandinavia is poor.
Even if this was true (and of course it is not), it tells us more about US 'conservatives' and their prejudices than Scandinavia. BTW I shall be in the Hudson Valley in a couple of weeks.
“Taxes are not an expense, but an investment.” Is there a way, post Ronald Reagan (government is the problem, not the solution) to convince Americans of that? Could we replace massive Republican corruption with minor Democratic corruption?
I am cynical enough to believe, that in a world of humans, there is always some corruption.
1
I don’t recall that you have EVER led with “We Should Adopt Denmark’s Tax Policies.” Sure, people want a “social democracy” with all the promises of free stuff – right up until they get the bill.
If you’re a middle class American, in return for 63% marginal tax rates, you would receive ... nothing. You have health insurance. You’re not poor. You’re out of college. You pay for, you don’t receive. “income supports”.
And stop with the straw men already, eh? Unemployment is low among the Amish, too. Everybody pulls together, inequality is marginal, and they seem really happy. All you need is a deeply ingrained ethos against sponging. Do the Amish count as a “welfare state”? If that life appeals to you, what’s stopping you? Why do you insist that EVERYONE go along for the ride?
Have you ever heard Sanders honestly say what his plans would cost and how he will pay for them? Denmark pretty much eliminated wealth – so EVERYONE pays taxes in the 50% range. Curiously, American socialists are all over the asserted benefits, but never, NEVER honestly discuss the costs.
Nothing stops every good socialist from joining a kibbutz. Enjoy.
But, kindly: if we wanted to be Danes, we’d move there (assuming they’d let us; they’ve shut their borders). We want to be Americans. Americans believe in individual liberty, including the right to earn what you can and keep what you earn. So, live life as you please. But have the common decency to leave those of us who want to be Americans alone.
@Michael Not a history major I would guess. You should go back and study what the US tax rate was like in the post war period and how a combination of government and private enterprise created the greatest economy on earth. That's all gone now and the young generation, living in sharply divided social classes, have no idea what was lost.
12
@Michael
Phew. Guess PK touched a nerve.
A few points.
"If you’re a middle class American, in return for 63% marginal tax rates, you would receive ... nothing. You have health insurance. You’re not poor. You’re out of college."
* Oh, I see, once you've graduated and have a corporate job with health insurance, it's time to pull up the ladder.
"And stop with the straw men already, eh?"
* A straw man is an over simplified example. Denmark is a rich and complex society--far from a straw man. PK is not saying that Denmark is a Utopia. And he is not saying that their exact policies would work here. But he is pointing out significant differences in their political economy to engender some introspection. Surely, we are emotionally secure enough to handle a discussion.
"Why do you insist that EVERYONE go along for the ride?"
* Why do you insist that everyone just has to keep their ideas to themselves and accept things as they are here?
"Curiously, American socialists are all over the asserted benefits, but never, NEVER honestly discuss the costs."
* American capitalist never, never honestly discuss the costs--the externalized cost of private production and the externalized risk that are only borne by the gov't or future generations.
"So, live life as you please. But have the common decency to leave those of us who want to be Americans alone."
* So we can't even look to other countries for ideas w/o being asked to leave by "real Americans"? Really?
6
Ironic that a speaker and writer of English such as yourself, PK, can fault the Danes for how they pronounce their letters. Though, thought, bough, rough, slough... Need I say more?
2
A number of years ago my family stayed at a Bed and Breakfast in the lake country of northern Wisconsin. A local resident explained why the state early on developed liberal poltical leanings (now sadly waning). He said that Wisconsin had had many dairy farmers. Milk spoils quickly, so such farmers needed goods roads and infrastructure to facilitate getting milk and milk products to market. So there was political support for an activist and supportive government.
Probably another factor was the influence of socialist ideas brought over by Europeans. Michael Tomasky's column today mentions Victor Berger, a socialist member of Congress from Milwaukee. Berger was born in Vienna, but Scandinavians were important in the upper Midwest.
2
Some of the comments about Denmark being a homogeneous country is way out of date . Many different nationalities now live in Denmark . The demographics have changed considerably over the past two decades .
3
@Carl Eriksen - based on 2017 population data, about 87% of the population of Denmark consists of Danish citizens. Of the 13% immigrant population, about 1/3 come from western countries. So of a population of % million, less than 10% is comprised of immigrants of a significantly different ethnic or religious background.
I'd also point out that, as that population has grown, so have nativist/nationalist movements begun to emerge.
Democratic socialism is all well and good when you have shared values. It's less attractive when you don't.
2
On a recent visit to Norway I was somewhat shocked by the 25% tax on everything, and I do mean everything even a cup of coffee, until I looked further and found the Norwegians are supported by their social services from "cradle to grave," they want for nothing at each life stage. Not only that but Oslo is the only city with a public ski jump within the city limits!
6
@kris
No arguments.
Except for the ski jump: Google Innsbruck!
3
Some things to note:
Denmark has a relatively small, homogenous population (5.71 million). That is less than NYC (8.71 million).
They share in the profits of a huge oil reserve.
This would not work in the US. Unless you went on a state by state basis.
For example Alaska could become a micro Denmark. They already share in the oil that is piped out through Canada and into the continental US. They would just have to evolve the rest of the social services.
The key is a small homogenous population, aligned in beliefs and goals.
Hard to achieve in the US.
And do not forget that Denmark has just passed a law "Children of immigrants must spend 40 hours a week away from their families to learn Danish values."
There are always sacrifices to every ideal.
Mr Krugman happily leaves that out.
3
You appear to be missing his point.
5
I spent time in Denmark earlier this year and found it to be wholly livable and enjoyable. In the days I spent walking the streets of Copenhagen I saw only two homeless people. The Metro runs every few minutes. The poorer of the population live in small but architecturally pleasing villages with tidy, functional gardens, a short walk to public transportation.
It's also interesting to note that the wealth distribution of Denmark is not that different from the US. They have rich people just as we do; those who aspire to wealth can do just as well there as here. However, what Denmark and Sweden seem to lack is abject poverty.
And I must say, I rather enjoyed the non-correlation between Danish spelling and pronunciation: a teutonic language with the capriciousness of French spelling. Who'd have guessed that 'Amager' is simply pronounced 'Ama?'
2
Does it really make sense for a 10 employee dry cleaner or a 100 employee machine shop to be responsible for social welfare programs? Do they have the actuarial heft, the medical expertise to do this? Do you really want your employer and their HR department involved in your medical condition?
Denmark, where these functions are performed by the government, is generally considered to have a better business environment than the US. It simply makes actuarial sense to run social insurance programs at the largest scale. As a side effect, employees are freed from dependence on "nanny" companies and companies are freed from having to act as social welfare organizations so they can just focus on what they're in business to do.
8
I wish people would stop using the experience of highly culturally (and ethnically and racially) homogenous countries like Denmark and Sweden up as "proof" that socialism can work everywhere.
For socialism works when everyone (or at least the vast majority) of people in the system have a shared worldview, a common moral and ethical compass. When people start to feel that others are getting a "free ride," there may be less interest in a generous social state.
We're seeing this happen in Scandinavia, as nationalist/nativist parties are challenging the long-standing economic socialism due to a growing percentage of immigrants. As these countries become more diverse, let's see how long the generous social benefits are continued before we hold them up in this way.
2
People like to cite racial homogeneity as the reason Scandinavian countries are so successful in implementing welfare states. But New Zealand is a pretty strong refutation. It's little more than an excuse.
Then again, New Zealand actually teaches the history of its country in its classrooms. Our kids get Squanto and the Pilgrims but, somehow, not the Trail of Tears or Bloody Sunday.
America continues to be hamstrung by its past. Hopefully, that's changing. Part of the tension between Millennials and older adults is that we *are* more aware of history and the ramifications we continue to live with.
6
@Seb Williams, Many *older* adults are very well aware of history. We lived some of it.
3
Perhaps we need to coin a new party name such as Ethicalists! Who could be against being ethical.
We'd have Democrats, Republicans and Ethocrats.
I'm sure we can come up with a bunch of possibilities.
1
Wow! The racism in some of these comments is mind-blowing.
7
@DenisPombriant
Agreed. All the 'well, the U.S. isn't a homogenous society like they are' comments certainly smack of white supremacy.
4
Life satisfaction? We don't want no stinkin' life satisfaction here in 'merica!
6
Just because the Danes have a lesser population or the place is smaller, does not mean that the US cannot take the edges off of capitalism. The religious right practices a religion that even Jesus would opine is from hell & seeks to enrich, the rich while starving the poor & vilifying immigrants.
Whether or not people acknowledge it Social Security survivors, old age, widows, orphans payments, Medicare, Medicaid, Food Stamps, Welfare, UI, Workers' Compensation, off the Job disability benefits, housing subsidies, job programs, road building, education programs for the disabled, regardless if age of the recipient, Fannie Mae, public schools & colleges, etc., are all born out of a concept of socialism. Those programs are referred to as the 'Safety Net' and the population that are eligible to receive those benefits, have permitted a DJT/Republican/Fox News, etc., creation of a fantasy that those elaborated benefits are unnecessary.
Heads up to those who do not vote to protect themselves, their environment & their progeny, beware of what you lack understanding which coincidentally benefits you & even the greedy capitalists who seek to put the cost of the previously elaborated programs into the their, the 1%'s pockets. As a member of the 1% imagine how happy I will be if I can have a road built, free, for me. Wow what a Xmas gift, courtesy of the folks who drank the 'anti-socialist' Kool Aid. [apologies to the real Kool Aid]. BTW, I am part of the 99% & I vote.
2
In the USA, the corporate snouts are so deep in the trough of corporate subsidy socialism that there is nothing left over for Joe Public - except to pick up the feed tab, of course.
Any crumbs that might have escaped, like Medicaid, Social Security, CHIP, or Food Stamps are busy being licked up as I write.
With their corporate bellies full and their wallets stuffed with public money till they burst, our oleaginous Oligarchs have lit on idea of fomenting racial discord between Black and Brown and White as their mouthpieces stoke the flames to make America White Again. All so that they can carry on stripping the wealth out of the country and into their pockets without people paying attention.
President Lyndon B. Johnson once said, "If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you."
They are still at it.
10
earth to Media you can't buy brains
stupid people do stupid things so here we are
with the country being run by someone who
knows nothing about nothing.
Worry
Alfred E. Neuman
4
Thanks, that was an interesting analysis. My only criticism of the piece is the US is a behemoth as compared to Denmark. So the level of complexity is much greater. Still, Denmark is the poster child for using the law of comparative advantages to its benefit. But better yet, they didn't screw the citizenry very like the USA has. The wealth was shared, not expropriated by a "winner take all" mentality.
3
Let's just focus on universalizing good health insurance, making college affordable if not free, developing better economic security for all of our population, providing opportunities to get ahead for people who need the most help, and decreasing economic inequality in the U.S., without making a fetish out of a country half the size of New York City that we will never be. Social-democratic politicians from Denmark have cautioned Bernie Sanders that he is unrealistic to make them a model for what he wants to achieve in the U.S. If you want a healthier lifestyle such as the Danes enjoy but you don't want or can't afford to move or retire there, find a community in the U.S. where the people are educated and progressive and care about bicycling and leaving a smaller carbon footprint, and who are considerate and concerned about the well-being of all the other people in their community. University towns are a good place to start - and they likely offer greater cultural diversity than Denmark. I'm leaving South Florida when I retire in a few years because in many ways it's just too nasty for me to stay here as I get older. But the great cultural diversity here is one of the outstanding things it has going for it, far more than you will find in any Scandinavian country.
1
There is much to admire about Denmark and the Danes. This article and many of the comments posted in response to that article illustrate that fact.
In particular, it is noteworthy that a country with a high extent of social cohesion, high levels of education and a strong democratic tradition can further strengthen those attributes by adopting social democratic public policies in a moderate fashion over many decades.
We in Canada (being larger and more culturally and geographiclly diverse country) have had similar benefits through a more centrist pragmatic mixing of social democratic and free-market public policies since WW II.
It should be acknowledged, however, that recent histories in both countries show that good luck and progressive public policy choices don't make a country fully immune to xenophobic populism (but good luck and policy help in that regard as well all the same).
7
I love Denmark. Fantastic people who haven't sacrificed common sense for the fad memes du jour. My friends - in managerial positions that would get them large salaries in the States complain about taxes but with a subtone that reveals their pride in how their little country is organized and run. They seem to vacation a lot, know how to take it easy yet I am amazed by their productivity and successes.
Denmark is a great model for us all.
4
That's all well and good, but doesn't Denmark have very high cancer rates?
You forgot to mention that Denmark is one of the most anti-immigration countries in Europe. You don’t need unrestrained immigration to prosper either.
1
Krugman, if you start singing "The Sunny Side of Life" I'm cancelling my subscription.
2
No wonder Donald Trump wants more Scandinavians. He is a genius. As are you.
1
You can think about Shakespeare and still be a nerd.
1
Denmark is an economic success but the new ban on the burqa/niqab is an religious prejudice Mr Krugman should have criticized
1
Paul Krugman is right, all Danes learn English at an early age. They even have a cheese called "Chedder", a steal at 33 Dkr.
So the U.S. is #1 in the world, right?
Which is more important to the average person: living in the country with the greatest wealth (US) or in a country with the best quality of life (Norway)?
Here is the ranking of the top countries of 34 nations on Quality of Life (11 indicators) using the OECD 2016 data:
Norway (!), Australia (2), Denmark (3), Switzerland (4), Canada (5)... Finland (8), U.S. (9)...
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/11/these-oecd-countries-have-the-bes...
Oh, there is a little catch, that country with the greatest wealth also has an appalling rank on Income Inequality (ranks 7th from the bottom of the 34 nations, between Lithuania and Turkey)
https://data.oecd.org/inequality/income-inequality.htm
And of those nations ranking highest on the Quality of Life Index, Denmark, Canada, Sweden, Norway, & Finland are classified as having a "socialist economic structure" (often known as democratic socialism).
http://blog.peerform.com/top-ten-most-socialist-countries-in-the-world/
And given what our 1% free-market capitalist economy (sans the responsibility) has put our younger generation through, 51% of Millennials do not "support capitalism." In another poll, 49% of young people favor socialism; 43% had negative views. (WPost, 4/26/16)
In political science it is called generational replacement, so look out GOP, the democratic socialists are coming
5
Don't blame the Danes for the disconnect between English eyes and tongues, blame the English and their "Great Vowel Shift".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Vowel_Shift
3
Think how great the United States would be if only our government would go into our ghettos and take away our young children for 25 hours a week to inculcate our values. They would be well nourished, ready for intellectual development and full of patriotic vigor. There is so much to learn from Denmark. And let’s ban burkas while we’re at it...
4
@Len319
Yes, because kids get so much more hip-hop, ebonics, gangsta fashion and bullying peers who excel in school. What is wrong in helping kids integrate into the dominant culture?
5
It's time to find a new name for the ideals of socialism. That term is forever tainted by its association with the fascist states of the last century. When an opponent of some policy shouts "socialism" it stifles debate.
1
@susaneber, How about we start with 'single payer' health care. Sounds good enough.
Do I recall that McCarthy attacked the berry farming coops as his first victims in his communist drivel? Demonizing in the pre Trump McCarthyism nightmare but this time with praise of Putin and election tampering be excused. Strange times, sad times.
2
Alt-title: “Notes on Slipping on Butter into Empire”
Paul, you can't win your argument without explaining the seminal cancer of 'negative externality cost dumping' to average young Americans --- which, BTW, is the most valuable thing you could do in your position at the "Times" and during, as Dylan sang, "these 'Times' they are a changin".
Though-out history, from Moses leading his people out of the Egyptian Empire, to Christ overcoming the Roman Empire with love, the Spanish, British, French, Nazi, Japanese, and supposedly last one, the Soviet "Evil Empire" (aren't they all, Ronnie?) --- Empires always collapse.
But without 'we the American people' becoming aware, more informed, 'woke', educated (by you), and understanding the metastasizing cancer of global 'negative externality cost dumping', then 'we the people' can't be blamed for falling for Emperor Trump's biggest lie --- that our leader ('Fuhrer' in German) can, by acting like an Emperor, and promising to "Make America Great Again" only be lying that the biggest Empire can be “winning” --- when the reality is that this first attempt to build a truly Disguised Global Capitalist Empire will turn-out very badly not only for every American, but also for every citizen of our world.
5
For the progressive pundit a useful idiocy of Americans is our ignorance of geography. You can compare us invidiously with the same 25 OECD countries until the Holsteins come home, and the American herd will never ask “but what about the other 175 countries?”
Surely socialism is responsible for the lofty human development OECD countries boast. Post hoc ergo propter hoc! But which hoc? What does it take to be a successful socialist nation? Why are they clustered in a few places? Why has socialism been a bumpy ride for great powers?
If you’re a successful socialist nation:
Are you small? Do “short synapses” make you agile?
Will a few prestige products support your population?
Is that prestige burnished by a guilty imperial past?
If your butter cows eat foreign grain, do you pass the “resource curse” along to others?
Does being “your brother’s keeper” mean keeping someone who resembles your actual brother?
Do other nations solve your bully problem for you? (Some guns with your butter, Professor?)
Have you redistributed the wealth of your 1%, or have you become part of the world’s 1%?
If you’re not socialist (or blond), how did you get on this list? (Tigers, I’m looking at you.)
Socialists, fear not! The torrent of technology will wash away individualism and force all of us to choose either the Falls of Socialism or the Cataract of Social Darwinism. The “scientific” left and the religious right could find themselves in the same boat. (Individualism will be the stow-away.)
1
I thought his name was pronounced Tee-ho Bra-hey, but I'm not a Dane.
1
I think your readers would enjoy a piece from you on the difference between socialists and populists. Why is the Bern the former while our pathetic POTUS is the later?
Social democracy (the social/socialist part) works in Denmark because of a level of social trust and responsibility we don't have. Few Danes take unfair advantage of benefits, and few Danes accuse others of doing so.
We have an underclass (actually, several underclasses, distinct in ethnicity and culture) that lacks this sense of responsibility and a larger culture that is aware of this and resents it.
2
@Jonathan Katz
And I assume you're in the "larger culture". You know, we could talk all day about "underclasses"--Bill Clinton did a nice job of it to get re-elected in 1996.
But even if some amount of underclass is unavoidable, and even if it exists partly because the familiar Republican intonations about "lack of responsibility", you could still design social welfare policies that were fairer than what we have, and tougher where they need to be, so dismissing the whole idea because of "lack of social trust" is giving up without honestly considering what can be done.
And part of what I think can be done is convincing people like yourself that nothing is to be gained for resenting the poor and destitute, or automatically assuming its their own fault.
But then that didn't help Bill Clinton get re-elected!
2
Since Reagan, the Republican party has not talked issues but instead attacked and divided. They claimed Dems were soft on crime that dog whistled that Blacks were to blame causing racist divide. The Unions were the cause of inflation and made workers unproductive which caused inflation that hurt non union workers. Government assistance caused people to cheat and be lazy and Dems were the cause. Dems plan to clean environmen t caused lost jobs , Taxes were a Dems strategy to steal from the rich and give to the lazy. They attacked Dems for debt but have consistently been the administration that piled up the debt.
On real issues the Republicans are on the wrong side f every major one. Climate change and clean environment, Health care, Social Security and its funding, education, infra structure plan, equal opportunity, and protection of LGBT citizens, and peace.
5
Very appropriate column by M. Krugman in this age of talk about socialism. But if I may add a little humor to his last paragraph regarding the pronunciation of the language, I would refer to the observations of my father who did a lot of business in his days in Denmark and Holland. Like Dutch, and to a certain extent Flemish, spoken Danish is not a language, it's a throat ache - brought about by the very strong winds of the north sea that give its residents a permanent inflammation of the throat and vocal cords. The good news: most Danes, aside from making excellent butter, speak English.
3
"Still on vacation, and I’m currently in Denmark – in fact, just cycled from Copenhagen to Helsingor, aka Elsinore ..."
I made my heart glad to learn of your cycling in Denmark, Paul. We have become cycling enthusiasts ourselves. Every such instance of "keeping calm and carrying on" is a victory over the depredations of he-who-must-not-be-named.
2
As Canadians of Indian origin, my family and I, naturally, love socialism. And, as frequent visitors to Denmark, we also love Denmark and its people.
In one of our earlier visits, we found the Danes in an uproar over a new tax that was to be levied on baked goods. Now, was that unbridled socialism or a curb on capitalism?
It was being called a "fat tax" to help curb obesity. One can draw whatever lessons one wants. Prof Krugman, is there an inverse correlation here - as body weight decreases, happiness increases?
AG
Calgary, Canada
2
Denmark is no more socialist than the US. Historically, it had a small homogeneous population with higher taxes and social service spending than the US. However that has changed recent years as an influx of non-Danes exploited the welfare system while often refusing to assimilate into Danish society and culture. The result has been a sharp rise in populism and new laws to encourage immigrants to adopt Danish ways or face a loss of benefits.
Ah, vacations! Do I detect a certain "lightheartedness" in this article!? I suppose that in the time of trump some perspective is helpful--let's keep it going.
1
This discussion makes a perfect companion piece to today's NYT article on retirees filing for bankruptcy in record numbers. One reason (there are multiple reasons) is extraordinary health costs. If Denmark would take me, I would pack up and go.
5
And the Danish economy is not run by a political party that bases its policy on the myth of supply side economics. The GOP is an embarrassment.
11
Perhaps this column is a metaphor that relates to the age-old national question and debate in our country: Is it guns or butter?
Denmark may come out strong on butter, but the good ol' USA is #1 in guns, with 112.6 guns per 100 residents; Serbia is #2 with 75.6 guns per 100 residents (2016).
And the US and Russia are the top major gun exporting countries in the world.
Guns R US
Personally, I would feel better and much prouder about living in a butter-making country than in a gun-making nation.
Maybe this is what separates the progressives, democratic socialists, and the Democrats from the right-wingers and the GOP.
Vote for butter, not guns in 2018 & 2020!
232
@PB When invaded, Denmark was unable to resist. Not because of the absence of individually owned guns (completely useless), but because it didn't have a serious military.
Ultimately, Americans liberated Denmark. Who could liberate us, if we were defeated?
@Jonathan Katz
We don't need to spend more than ever other country in the world COMBINED to resist invasion. Sorry, not a good argument.
@PB Vote for Lego too.
The last time I looked, neither Denmark nor the Scandinavian countries in general, have been world leaders in industry and innovation. Yes, their citizens enjoy an nice, peaceful life, but if the rest of the world were like them, we'd be 50 years behind in technology and increased quality of life. There is much to be said for their way of life and priorities, but they are able to live it, at least in part, because other countries, and the U.S. in particular, are willing to suffer the disadvantages and inequities of a truly fee society to provide opportunities for everyone to have a better life. Socialism tends to minimize the incentive for change and favors the status quo. It also lessens the likelihood of active resistance to outside forces that would force them to change via force. Capitalism surely isn't perfect, but I'll take it any day over socialism.
@Thomas J. Bazzone my experience with Scandinavian countries is that they have embraced technology far sooner than we in the U.S. before the iPhone there was Nokia and Eriksen. I find Europeans in general better educated and more tech savvy. They have excellent public transport and embraced fuel efficient cars and renewable energy. Yes it costs a relative fortune for gas. While living for 10years in Germany I paid around 8 dollars a gallon, eventually giving up my car because I really didn't need it.
2
@Thomas J. Bazzone
You characterization of the Nordic economies is not based on fact. As another commenter wrote:
"...Augosto Lopez-Claros, economist of the World Economic Forum,...on why Nordic countries score so high on the WEF's Global Competitiveness Report:
...it is a combination of many factors that, ... , create extremely healthy business environments. First, unlike some of the larger industrial countries, macroeconomic management has been quite admirable...Integrity and efficiency in the use of public resources means there is money for investing in education, in public health, in state-of-the-art infrastructure, all of which contributes to boost productivity. Highly trained labor forces... adopt new technologies with enthusiasm or, ... in the Nordics, are themselves in the forefront of technological innovations.
In many ways the Nordics have entered virtuous circles ... [making] them among the most competitive economies in the world, with world class institutions and some of the highest levels of per capita income....
While the business communities in the Nordic countries, ... point to high tax rates as a potential problem area, there is no evidence that these are adversely affecting the ability of these countries to compete....
[When] high tax rates generate resources that ... deliver world-class educational establishments, an effective social safety net, and a highly motivated and skilled labor force, ... competitiveness is boosted, not undermined."
3
@Thomas J. Bazzone Apparently you have never been to Europe. Sad.
"Indeed, while GDP per capita in Denmark is lower than in the U.S. – basically because of shorter work hours – life satisfaction is notably higher."
Or, the less time spent working, the more enjoyable life is. Why is anyone surprised by this? Perhaps because the capitalist/Christian notion that not working up to one's potential - and beyond - is evidence of laziness. We are taught that idle hands are the Devil's workshop.
At the same time, Republicans push the notion that taxes are bad. Entitlements make us lazy. Medical care for all, and for free, is terrible.
So, nice column Dr. K.!
10
Here is Augosto Lopez-Claros, economist of the World Economic Forum, a few years ago on why Nordic countries score so high on the WEF's Global Competitiveness Report:
I think it is a combination of many factors that, taken together, create extremely healthy business environments. First, unlike some of the larger industrial countries, macroeconomic management has been quite admirable...Integrity and efficiency in the use of public resources means there is money for investing in education, in public health, in state-of-the-art infrastructure, all of which contributes to boost productivity. Highly trained labor forces, in turn, adopt new technologies with enthusiasm or, as happens often in the Nordics, are themselves in the forefront of technological innovations.
In many ways the Nordics have entered virtuous circles where various factors reinforce each other to make them among the most competitive economies in the world, with world class institutions and some of the highest levels of per capita income in the world....
While the business communities in the Nordic countries, when asked, point to high tax rates as a potential problem area, there is no evidence that these are adversely affecting the ability of these countries to compete....
[When] high tax rates generate resources that are then used to deliver world-class educational establishments, an effective social safety net, and a highly motivated and skilled labor force, then competitiveness is boosted, not undermined.
11
"During the creation of the first global economy, the one made possible by railroads, steamships, and telegraphs, the world seemed to bifurcate into industrial nations and the agricultural raw/material producers who catered to them. And the agricultural nations, even if they grew rich at first – e.g., Argentina – seemingly ended up getting much the worse of the deal, turning into banana republics crippled economically and politically by their role."
This brings back memories of eighth-grade American history: the North was an industrial power and the South the provider of raw materials, with a plantation economy, an extreme "banana republic" system in which a small minority of landowners grew rich while a whole sector of the population were literally defined as livestock.
No wonder the nation fell into civil war.
4
We have gone so far in calling anything even vaguely socialist bad that even the cooperatives that greatly helped in the initial recovery from the Great Depression are now seen as not a good thing, especially because they are so liked by those Socialist Danes. Too bad we bailed out the big corps after the great recession instead of taking the opportunity to have the government support rebuilding financial and manufacturing cooperatives.
5
"Butter, not guns." Sounds good to me.
133
You might want to invest in a home there in Europe as the Republicans have drafted the allegiance of the military, gun owners, Russians and the wealthy making them just a step away from war if socialism makes inroads into the government. Take my word for it; they are dangerous fascists now in a position of absolute dominance, with absolute political power and the guns to back them up. Oh!, and by the way, can I stay in a spare bedroom?
7
For the better part of seventy years, the Republicans have gotten away with conflating socialism with Stalinism. Perhaps America is growing out of that.
10
One more time...Follow the money! Anything resembling socialism has been stigmatized by politicians who are "owned" by the wealthy and their lobbyists, who are driven by our culture of avarice. At present we have an administration who has taken greed to a level unseen in this country, possibly ever. Get out the pitchforks folks!
11
Dear Buddy,
I agree with you totally. The capitalists like to scare other people but luckily they are the minority!!!
I sure wish you had gone bicycling in Denmark before you wrote all of those columns ridiculing Bernie Sanders and social democrats, Professor.
14
Please take some time to visit the Louisiana Museum. It will help clear your head - not only the art but the building and the grounds.
If you can easily believe that there was a virgin birth, a talking snake and a burning bush, and that the Earth was created 6000 years ago and then build a museum to "teach" the younger generation that Man and Dinosaur roamed the Earth concurrently, then by gully it will not be so difficult for the people of this country to regard Socialism as Evil without really knowing what it means. Ignorance of the masses is the only existential threat that this Nation faces.
33
@Kami and we look upon you with wonder and horror.... thinking...... how can this be real in 2018.. ?
Paul, just try Dutch, be happy to let you in on proper pronunciation. How do you pronounce my name??? After living here for now more than 50 years, people are still arguing with me, a native Dutch speaker.
4
Denmark seems to have "enlightened self-interest", something Americans cannot understand, or even fathom. So deluded by the right wing they are the tribal sheep ripe for the shearing.
16
Krugman giving new meaning to bring on vacation. Love his insights.
6
A Society defined by Military Power is not a Healthy Society. The American Military is currently capable of killing all life on Earth. Is that something to be proud of ? Europeans are proud of their Healthcare System. Americans are proud of an organization that is great at killing people and destroying buildings. See the difference.
6
Helsingborg is in Sweden. Did you swim? Helsingør is in Denmark.
1
@wnhoke "Copenhagen to Helsingor, aka Elsinore"
1
@Dr. Woodpecker
The original said Helsingborg, not Helsingor.
economic lessons from Denmark . . . oh, the raw memories linger on how Hillary Clinton reamed into Sanders during the debate upon singling out the country for its lessons of social democracy, and dutifully joined by the chorus of high powered pundits frothing with epithets of "Bernie Bros".
8
@prof -- That cost her the election. Has that lesson been learned? Or are we to do it again in our indignation against Denmark and all its ways?
2
Denmark just fined a woman for wearing a veil. Creeping racism, no?
Just a nit: Helsingborg is in Sweden. The town in Denmark, traditionally associated with Shakespear's Elsinore, is Helsingor.
1
Most US companies are parasites contributing to the huge US deficit, and burning taxpayer and investor money. It is all hidden by a few big companies making huge profits. Most business news is fake news that is hiding many thousands of failing US companies. The S and P 500 has made 6 percent so far this year because of a few companies. Most in the index have made no money. The GOP and Trump tax cut is a huge flop.
11
Two points:
1) The finger-pointing Republican cry of “Socialist!” is always heard when Democrats call for economic justice (and for common sense).
2) I woke up early when my 2-year-old grandson staying overnight briefly cried, and I am experiencing something new when reading a Paul Krugman column. As I type this, I have a strong craving for a cheese Danish.
3
We probably sat next to each other the other night in Helsingor watching the Peking Opera version of Hamlet!
I'm British, live in Lund Sweden and am often in Denmark.For 17 years I wrote a foreign affairs column for an American pan-European paper, the International Herald Tribune.
Occasionally I write about Scandinavia. My best long article was on Sweden in the UK's Prospect magazine: In Search of the Swedish Soul. It's in the issue of July 4th 2009. You can find it on my web site: www.jonathanpowerjournalist.com
In reaction to the Great Recession Sweden was Keynesian, Denmmark was not, following as u say the stupid German model of austerity.
What I don't understand, since Sweden is economically far ahead, why the Swedish kronor has long fallen against the Danish kronor. Can u explain that to me?
[email protected]
5
@jonathan power -- "In reaction to the Great Recession Sweden was Keynesian, Denmmark was not, following as u say the stupid German model of austerity."
Denmark's baseline is strongly Keynesian, with massive public spending for public purposes. They cut back on that to avoid extreme deficit in a Euro-denominated economy, but still were doing Keynes to the tune of their large % tax base. They did not close down what they'd been doing all along.
Sweden could do the deficit of extra Keynesian stimulus during the downturn because it is not part of the Euro, and could buy some extra recovery by allowing its currency to move against the Euro of its trading partners.
Therefore Sweden recovered faster. It paid the price by letting it currency slide against the Euro to which Denmark is tied to the Euro (its exchange rate is tied to within 2.25% of the euro, by its opt-out agreement).
5
Danes are really very conservative people, but they are conservative in a way that today's Republicans can't understand due to Fox/Rush brainwashing. Danes believe that freedom AND equality lead to prosperity and peace. They got that from us. They even celebrate our 4th of July. They have also actually lived under an authoritarian dictator (Hitler) and they wonder why we vote for people like that. They thrive as Krugman observes on free trade. They always have. They are bright enough to see the consequences of environmental destruction and they accept refugees because they see the value of immigrants for a shrinking European population. They see that their greatest assets are their people so they invest in education and health care just as they invest in soil conservation and agricultural technology for their farming community: very sensible and conservative views.
37
@Eric Hansen, we do not celebrate 4th of july! "Danes believe that freedom AND equality lead to prosperity and peace. They got that from us. " ???? I'm sorry, its the other way around...the vikings traded long before your civilisation even started. The only thing we got from you is McDonalds. and now we wanna give it back... (please take it away)... We all look in horror at your elected leader and shakes our heads in disbelief... not at him... we kinda expected him to behave this way... no we shake our heads and wonder ... how could you?
Actually, Danish pronunciation is very different from Swedish and Norwegian. The awful anti-Norwegian joke - Norwegian is only Danish with a Swedish accent (not true and ha ha ha who has the last laugh now) is not true, but it does reflect how words meaning the same thing and spelled the same way are pronounced differently. Written Danish goes back mostly to the 19th century, spoken Danish has evolved.
1
When communism ceased to exist in the Soviet nations, the value of calling someone a communist plunged. So, the right in America settled on socialist after having turned liberal into a seven letter curse. The red scare simply morphed into a pink scare.
Most Americans don't even really know what socialism is, but they know they don't like it and don't want it. Except, of course, if they fully understood more about Europe and the value of generous vacation time, nationally administered health care and much earlier retirements, they might fill the streets demanding socialism (as long as it had a different name).
Socialism appears to be a system that can succeed for awhile and then fall of its own weight as the funds coming in fail to match those needed going out. Capitalism? It appears to be a system like some sort of giant machine that spins and cranks with a might sound but one day will destroy itself from the inside out in an endless pursuit of growth and its inability to sate the greed of those at the top, more, more, more with no thought of tomorrow.
Both systems need moderating forces within to survive longer term. All but completely lacking in such counter forces right now for our capitalist enterprise system, we are moving ever faster toward destruction, whether environmental or the collapse of any sense of being in an American community as workers are denied their just dues.
We have willed our own death and can't find the energy or the means to preserve ourselves.
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@Doug Terry
I enjoy your comments but I must correct you.
A functioning democracy has at least two major political parties and the voters decide if they need more or less government and whether they are willing to pay more or less taxes.
The USA has one functioning political party and covers much of the political spectrum with a left a center and a right.
The Republicans are a cult. It has a social agenda that violates the constitution and an economic agenda that is not responsive to need. The dogma of less government and low taxes is insane. It only works when taxes are too high and government is too big. America had been the most successful government and nation to evolve since the 18th century and even a brutal civil war didn't stop the nation from evolving. The Civil Rights Act of 1964 saw the Republicans change from a political party to a cult and the future of American Democracy is very much in doubt.
If we look at what happened in Russia after the fall of communism we see the naissant democracy put to death by the oligarchs and plutocrats 20 years ago.
When the oligarchs and plutocrats put democracy to the sword in Russia 20 years ago it looked very much like the USA looks right now. Yeltsin may not have been a looney like Trump but he was an erratic alcoholic and the autocrats from Davos, Russia and the world prefer stability to chaos.
1
@Doug Terry
And yet over and over and over they vote for socialism for the rich with absurd tax breaks and bailouts socializing all their gambling losses as we did with the banksters in 2008. If the bailouts were necessary, the pay back to the tax payers should have been huge -- instead it was nonexistent and the banksters won unprecedented bonuses not one year after the tax payers bailed them out.
But please don't say "we" willed our own death. Many of us has been voting against this nonsense for years.
2
@White Buffalo
Thanks for your comment. The "we" in my post refers to our collective inability to do otherwise.
Your comment raises the question to me of how can the voters use the only tool beyond money contributions, the ballot, to truly express their will. It is a blunt instrument. You can vote for one thing and get the opposite again and again. It is my view, in fact, that voters have been trying unsuccessfully to shutdown "the mess in Washington" (too much partisanship, government by stalemate, etc.) but they have often done so by sending people to the capital invested in continuing the fruitless battles.
The ballot itself, putting every hope on a candidate, does not appear to be expressive enough to guide a democracy, so we wind up with virtual kings for four to eight years who impose their will on the rest of us.
You mentioned a "good education as a good starting point to prosperity." Universally in the US that is sadly lacking. It wouldn't hurt to start there.
10
“Blessed are the cheesemakers”
ANY column with a Life of Brian reference is a good column. Thanks for the laugh!
124
If socialism means that the nation's economy serves all of the people and not just the top 0.1%, that health care, education through college, decent housing, child and elder care, and modern infrastructure are basic rights, that companies are required to treat their workers as human beings and not just disposable parts, and that there is more to life than work and the accumulation of wealth, then I guess that I am a socialist.
34
Also remember that the Denmark has less that 30,000 members in it's armed forces, and has not drained it's treasury by being engaged in Middle Eastern wars for the past 20 years.
Imagine if the dollars spent in the quagmire of the Middle East were deployed at home.
8
@steve THIS is what all politicians should be touting! We are shameful for spending hundreds of thousands on military and are unable to feed and house our own people.
1
As usual when the discussion turns to providing benefits all Americans equally, the comments are apt veer into decrying the lack of homogeneity as the reason this is not possible. No one says why this isn't possible. I guess for some Americans race and their personal perceptions thereof, trump everything. The original sin of the American project is still with us.
22
The article has reminded me of Michael Moore's movie "Where to Invade Next". He went very much to the point on how small, (real) democratic, educated and, most important, equalitarian nations have succeeded and serve as an example for the US and other countries. Butter, bananas, cattle are secondary, however, as the article well points out, value added is a must. Isn't most value added in todays world virtual?
5
Thank you so much Paul. YOU are a wise American.
3
Half my ancestors left Finland a century ago. America was full of room to grow, and Finland's ruling society was a bit on the narrow side. Now Finland is still cold, but its society has prospered. Even the Russians like some Finnish products.
Perhaps smaller counties are within the limits of human control and Big Countries are too big to avoid power hungry clowns who only want to be Extra Special Big Shots in World Power?
Politics are not powerless, but, perhaps Big Politics are simply mindless?
Mondays are always tough...
4
All true, but Denmark couldn't be Denmark without the United States.
2
How many people wearing red caps will read this piece? Then, how many of those will understand it? Or want to understand it? And those "folks" aren't going away, nor do they care to learn.
"We've been here before" and likely won't get another chance.
4
@Edgar Numrich
My guess is None. The Times is above an eighth grade reading level!
3
It’s interesting on why Denmark is chosen for this review. Couldn’t the same view be seen, even better, for Palo Alto, Greenwich, the upper east side of NY. Those communities seem to be doing well too, not sure they are “diverse”.
1
Dear Paul,
Many words in English aren't pronounced even remotely the way the spelling suggests to even an English speaker! Why did they do that? And the "y" sound in Danish doesn't have an equivalent in English, nor does the "r" sound.
Nevertheless a good article. I suggest you look into or ask Danes you meet in Denmark about Janteloven. It explains a lot and can be quite oppressive in practice. In a nutshell these social laws can be summarized as "Don't for a millisecond think you are something special, because you're not." Quite different from the American glorification of the individual.
3
@Henrik Kibak Oh right--the "tall poppy syndrome". Danish friends told me that Danes will flip the bird at someone who is pretentious enough to drive an expensive car. Not sure how this fits in with the mansions along the Strandvej---do people flip the bird at them when they drive by?
1
'..low levels of inequality.' My extreme conservative brother-in-law gave me a profound insight about what drives right-wingers, when in a discussion about Scandinavia he said, face distorted in genuine fear|disgust|horror:
'You mean where everybody is equal?' Right-wingers have a profound psychological need to feel superior (he loves cruising to depressed islands with lots of servile natives, but recoils in disgust at the idea of a trip to any northern European country).
11
Denmark is a small country, so policies that work for them will not necessarily work for the U.S.
Regarding pronunciation, Germans also pronounce the "y" in a weird way (Olympia = Oh-loom-peeya).
Besides the economic success and socialist support for the citizenry, Denmark also is beautiful, liberal (with a cannabis-legal, semi-autonomous zone within the heart of the capital (Freetown Christiania). The people are beautiful. Crime is low, and the streets are clean and peaceful. What Denmark doesn't have is a "diverse" citizenry; the nation built high barriers to immigration, and they expect all citizens (including immigrants) to know the basics of their culture and history. "Open borders" would never be accepted there, and the nation is clear that its own citizens are the first priority. Maybe we could learn about economics, socialism, and immigration from this happy, healthy, little country.
8
@Unconventional Liberal But we were never a homogenous culture here, not even before the first white settlers arrived. The Native American tribes varied a lot as far as culture, and many fought with other tribes. We will never be a homogenous culture. We have to learn to tolerate our differences and to figure out how to get along in spite of them. That starts with people not assuming that different is automatically scary and bad.
5
@Unconventional Liberal
Open borders is never accepted, nor even proposed by any politicians.
Don't confound right-wing propaganda with facts ... ;-)
As to "high barriers to immigration": any concrete evidence that its immigration laws are more limited than America's current immigration laws ... ?
In real life, Denmark is a very small piece of land, at a long distance from most other countries. That is probably a better factor in explaining why the Danish look so white than one or the other nazi-like immigration law system ... ;-)
1
Having spent a lot of time in Denmark there was one thing that struck me like a 10,000 pound weight when a Dane first told me about it. He said there is a document that is sort of like our constitution or bill of rights and it states...I'm paraphrasing here...As a Danish citizen, first and foremost I am here for you, my fellow Danes, and you are here for me. We are in this together and for each other.
He then looked at me and asked me if it was true that in America the basic idea was to get yours at any cost no matter how you do it or how it effects other American citizens. I was ashamed.
23
Paul evidently flunked geography in high school. For starters look at how small Denmark is. It's so much easier for the homogeneous Danes to have common economic goals and present a united front with very little dissent. Denmark is also a constitutional monarchy and they have Queen Margrethe II to rally around. When was the last time Americans rallied behind any leader???? America is a huge, bitterly divided country. All we care about is what's good for our home state and ignore everyone else. For example does New York really pay attention to Idaho?
4
@sharon5101.....the size and homogeneity of Denmark etc is just common and invalid excuse.
In our own US past, we had much less polarization, when our politics worked for the all. FDR/LBJ used govt to create a strong middle and working class---despite our size and group differences. Finally racial justice made progress.
What does homogeneous mean anyway? What divides us into groups and enflames resentment? Deliberate ecnomic inequality that removes power and wealth from the majority to benefit elites. Then resentments are enflamed for political power. Obvious cause/effect.
That's the absurdity of modern America, whose colonies had once rebelled against precisely the elite power that dominates today. Elite corporate power rules the US, which lacks the safeguards other democracies have.
5
Somehow Krugman never gets around to mentioning the ever-stricter controls on immigration in Denmark.
Socialism only seems to work in majority-homogeneous countries with high levels of social trust.
Perhaps Krugman can take his winter vacation in Venezuela and tell us all about the wonders of abundance and democracy wrought by Socialism in Venezuela.
2
I am a big fan of Professor Krugman's work, but this article feels as if it was written while on vacation. He fails to mention the backlash against immigrants by the Danish people and the rise of the Danish People's Party (DPP). The DPP’s website explicitly states that “Denmark is not an immigrant-country and never has been. Thus we will not accept transformation to a multiethnic society”. The DPP currently controls 37 seats in the 179-seat parliament and their influence can be clearly felt in Danish immigration policy. As recently as a month ago the NY Times wrote about the harsh realities for immigrants in Danish “ghettos” (https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/01/world/europe/denmark-immigrant-ghetto...
4
On the photo of cheeses in Copenhagen, most of the cheeses are foreign-made, the brands are not very good, and their display is a very low-class job. The picture of cheesemongering in the US is not any better. So, the enlightened socialism of Denmark has not produced a superior variety and display of cheeses that the capitalist US.
Perhaps the taxes making 46% of GDP in Denmark, compared to 26% in the US, warm the cockles of Professor Krugman's heart.
A note on the spelling of the astronomer's name: it is Tycho Brahe, not Tyco.
1
@Tuvw Xyz -- "Perhaps the taxes making 46% of GDP in Denmark, compared to 26% in the US, warm the cockles of Professor Krugman's heart."
You compare Federal tax to all tax. Do you not pay property taxes, sales taxes, state taxes? Do you not pay 50% more than they do for health care on top of taxes?
10
Denmark came of age, after spending 200 years from the mid 1600's loosing every major conflict we were involved in, reducing the kingdom, from a regional power to an utterly poor, powerless and humiliated country. That created the humblenes, discipline and solidarity that to this day eminates from our national identy - along with a distrust in "strong" leaders and anyone who feels they have a right to make other people bend to their will. Some countries, I think, have had the same revelation - Germany and Japan among others - whereas some have not!.
10
Off topic. Did the same bicycle ride in May. Beautiful.
2
It still comes back to the carefully cultured stupidity of those who think that the idea we should compassionately take care of society as a whole are socialists and out of touch with reality.
Mitt Romney's "the 47% who are takers," Ronald Reagan's slandering "welfare queens," and the general Republican way of thinking is that human nature is basically bad, lazy, and needing reward/punishment models in order to behave like human beings. If the fear of death and illness is not there when you wake up in he morning, they claim, then everyone will just lay in bed and go to the doctor's office the whole day.
Now, if the other side just elevated the conversation and made the dialogue about the degree of support vs. the degree of autonomy, and made some careful distinctions about it all, then we would not be at each other's throats.
But politics demands division (or at least one side thinks it does), fear and pressure in order to sell itself. And so we have to tolerate the dumb discussion as it presently exists.
12
Heaven forbid we raise taxes on the rich to fund universal healthcare and college or trade school education! All those Republicans with their "I'd rather be a Russian than a Democrat" t-shirts will be forced to start putting country before party again.
9
Try "Two-ko Brah!" I'm impressed your biked all the way to Helsingor! Not as hilly as that roller coaster!
1
Dear Dr. K:
Iam still astonished by the exposure made in your column.
Results briing in an all out of this world (mexico) situation.
Manythanks for the well invested vacation. Regards.
3
Enjoy your vacation and try to stop thinking and analyzing for awhile. I am sure they 'stop and smell the roses' as well as the cheese there.
1
Only mice are afraid of "socialism" when we practically live in it with the humongous companies, but in their case are called "economies of scale." How comfortable to the mice 's ears!
2
Denmark has often come up on top in rankings of the world's happiest people. Imagine growing up without the fear of going broke if you got sick and without the fear of whether or not you can afford a higher education for yourself and your children.
17
@spunkychk
And, like most every industrialized democracy, medical bankruptcy is unheard of.
Canada, too, has none.
And a huge nation of diverse population 6 times Denmark's size. Talk about scaling!
Tuition at McGill, e.g., is so low NYer kids fill it -- it's cheaper to pay Canadian fees and fly home every month than to go to Columbia or Harvard for a BA.
And probably better in most faculties in undergrad education.
2
Very nice column. How long was your 45 km ride? I am trying to determine whether I could in fact keep up with you. Keep up the good fight.
2
It’s sad to read the right wingers comments claiming that life in Denmark is so horrible. If not for the winters I’d immigrate if they’d have me.
5
Americans are not well-enough educated to achieve a fair, equitable society. This is by design. Think GOP, Fox, the Kochs, etc
10
A few days ago I passed Denmark myself, sure, on the sixth gear on the motorway from Germany to Sweden but hey, that's another strong point: Denmark has invested in infrastructure, huge bridges, bringing the islands together. As regards socialism vs. social democracy, RIGHT ON POINT. Americans need to learn that social democracy is democracy, socialism is communism and communism is every bit as bad as Nazism, if not worse. Just look at Venezuela, that is a socialist country. Or Cuba. Scandinavia are social democratic countries.
111
That's kind of oversimplifying (though I'm not at all surprised that it made a NYTimes pick). Put simply, "socialism" is such a vague word that it can basically mean anything from Mao's China to modern day Denmark. In that sense it's not unlike "capitalism," which similarly can mean anything from the Belgian Congo to, well, modern day Denmark.
1
@Ulf Erlingsson
Ulf, salutations. I disagree with you on equating socialism (in 3 steps) to Nazism. Socialism is egality; Nazism is a creed, based on RACE.
Check the French National Motto: "Liberty, Egality, Fraternity".
In the Brotherhood, there might be some less well-off than others - Egality implies solidarity with those less well-off.
Agreed. Even with the Soviet Union, lack of democracy and its self-correcting mechanisms was perhaps a bigger problem than its economic system.
I take a slightly broader view of "socialism" than simply a quest for social justice. Issues of social inequity are certainly a component. However, they are important only in so far as they relate to other aspects of freedom and justice. The philosophically pure will probably keel-haul me for the view of "socialism" I'm about to present. However, this is exactly why I would never present myself as a socialist in any strict sense of the word. With that disclaimer in mind, I'd actually like to first borrow from Amartya Sen's instrumental freedoms.
(1) Political freedoms, e.g. democracy, the freedom to scrutinize and criticize authorities, to enjoy a free press and multi-party elections.
(2) Economic facilities, e.g. people’s opportunity to have and use economic resources or entitlements.
(3) Social opportunities, e.g. people’s ability to have health care, to be educated, and to live in a society where others likewise enjoy these goods.
(4) Transparency guarantees, e.g. the ability to trust others and to know that the information one receives is clear and honestly disclosed.
(5) Protective security, e.g. social protections for vulnerable people that prevent abject deprivation.
These are the qualities Sen has outlined to describe a free society. At least three, and arguably all five, have been in decline within the United States for decades at least, possibly reaching critical proportions now. If "socialism" means protecting and restoring these freedoms, count me in.
9
Sometimes I think that the very existence of the Danish, Dutch, English language in particular the spelling in said languages, is the case for illeteracy as a goal.
4
When people ask me where my favorite place to travel is, I respond, Denmark. In fact, a good friend and colleague in Denmark says I'm "Dane-bramaged" meaning only that I have an affinity for things and ways Danish. To those who point out the obvious size and cultural differences of our two countries, I would say that we don't have to be an exact copy of Denmark, but only recognize that there are some very good ideas worthy of our consideration.
8
I think we need to drop the socialism label and argue for a refereed capitalism. That is one in which the government tries to make sure that there truly is a level playing field in which your parents economic circumstances are not either weights around your ankles while others performance is enhanced by elite education, funds to start-up your life's endeavors, and making invaluable business contacts. Additionally, there should be a way to insure that all businesses compete fairly and be up front and clear in all business dealings -- especially with consumers. A tall order, but it would still be capitalism, but capitalism at its best.
8
@Publicus1776
The US did have a period of "refereed capitalism" from FDR into the 1970's. Unions were relatively strong. Economic growth was shared with workers through rising wages and benefits. Government enforced rules and regulations. American public education was strong. We had "stakeholder capitalism" in which companies worked to balance the interests of shareholders, employees and the community.
Since the 1980's we've had "shareholder capitalism" in which the only goal is to maximize shareholder return. This was aided and abetted by conservative Republicans who weakened unions (think Reagan and the air traffic controllers union) and dis-invested in public education.
8
In the US, healthcare insurance is considered a "fringe benefit" of being employed. As healthcare costs have risen, companies have shifted more and more of the cost to employees, effectively wiping out the beneficial effect of wage and salary increases. Many employees stay with a company because they cannot afford to lose their insurance or restart the deductibles by changing jobs.
I have often thought that one reason conservatives are so opposed to a national healthcare insurance system is that it drastically reduces the employer's hold on the employee. Think of it this way: if healthcare insurance was universal and not tied to an employer, a company would have to compete for employees by offering better wages and working conditions and maybe even a pension plan.
A national healthcare insurance program would be a big step in restoring some bargaining power to the worker - a reason the right would oppose it.
22
@Quinn
Most western Europe countries have national health insurance. This also stimulates the curbing of costs, because the state gouvernment acts as a protector of the national and individual interest that the best service is provided for a reasonable price.
That is social democracy at work: the freedom of companies is balanced with compeition or rulings, and with social responsabilities like environment, emancipation of women and minorities and providing financial basics for all.
5
Part of their success come from their use of cooperatives. This speaks to their national character. Coops spread the wealth of enterprise while corporations concentrate wealth.
17
I have lived in Denmark for a decade.
I am glad Mr. Krugman starts off by highlighting how he rode a bike between cities.
The antidote to the false narrative and ignorance created about social democracies, is sharing more real-life examples. Examples that really illustrate how paying taxes feels good when you see the results in your own life and the life of your community are essential for promoting a more accurate picture.
Like how I can ride my bike, drive a car, take a train or metro to work. Like how when you go to free university here you also get a stipend as a student for living expenses. Like how I took paid maternity for months. And my husband also had paternity leave. Not to mention free healthcare.
What happens is, the other way of life, and I know both, feels comparatively like an unnecessary, unjust, painful struggle for survival. I know which one I prefer and would count myself in the rational majority. This way of life is simply more logical. NOT more extreme. Quite the opposite. I know I am not an outlier in preferring it.
Now let's paint the narrative taking a hint from Naomie Klein, with the whole context visible:
https://theintercept.com/2018/08/03/climate-change-new-york-times-magazine/
26
Socialism simply means you believe in society, the greatest good for the greatest number. There is a middle path between socialism and capitalism, and the U.S. negotiated it, indeed blazed the trail, in the 20th Century. There have been many pendulum swings toward the extremes, but since Reagan the pendulum has stuck at the wealth-creation end and it doesn't seem possible to correct it anymore.
5
@jimi99
jimi, it "seems possible" to me --- but it might well take a 'fire-side chat' with someone who combines the skills of a radically humanist economist, empathetic and honest politician, along with a demographically favorable change in the young believing that miracles can happen if they benefit us all equally as 'the people'.
5
It's possible to make a decent career in Denmark working even in fast food because of strong unions there. I suspect that this is at least part of the reason they have high labor participation even with the strong safety net. The downside is higher prices and less profits for businesses. There's probably less innovation as well, but higher life satisfaction overall.
4
Paul Krugman mentions in passing "the right" (lower case) as the source of our lack of the social benefits provided by the government of Denmark.
The U.S. has been handed over to a few billionaires by The Republican Party and he should say so.
20
I was in Copenhagen recently and was struck by the almost universality of Danish-English biligualism, even extending to children. This suggests an openness to the world, in contrast to the US where even a great many native-born cannot speak a grammatically correct English and where nativists are offended by signs in Spanish in places like Sears. The Danes are not perfect but they mostly appear to be grown-ups. Remember that surveys show the Danes to be the most CONTENTED people in the world. We Americans are often riled because we believe we have the right to be happy, not merely contented.
22
As to your last question, there is an old joke that when God was passing out languages at creation, Denmark and one other country were the last two to receive theirs, but God had only one language left. The other country got the language.
Lest we cast too many stones about Danish pronunciation vs Danish spelling, consider the pronunciation of, for example, "enough" and "plough" or "read" (present tense) and "read" (past tense).
15
@Chip
Many english and French words are spelled identically but pronounces completely different: nation, Paris, train, exception - to give some examples. All western European languages are a family, but indeed Danish is even for us Dutch difficult (we were the other country and got the last language).
1
My thoughts: Comparing Denmark to the U.S. is like comparing apples to oranges. The US is an immense country in terms of size (Denmark not including Greenland is the size of Massachusetts and Connecticut combined) and population (US 320 million vs Denmark at 6 million). US society is ethnically, religiously and racially diverse while Denmark is a very homogeneous country. The US economy is a lot more complicated - from Google to US Steel. The US dollar is the world's de facto currency. And I could go on and on.
My 2 cents.
4
@C.G. You nailed it. I lived there in the late 90s with my husband and 3 kids and found that living there was vastly different than visiting as a tourist which I'd done 4 times by then and which was great fun.
The Danish population at that time was 94% Danish going back many generations and the rest were mostly Turkish immigrants. The Danes are a tribe and they all pretty much agree on everything and expect others to fall in line too. I wasn't averse to doing things their way but I chafed at being told constantly "you shall do it this way". It was the "our way is the only way" sentiment, I guess.
I grew up in a small all-white town in Illinois but left for NYC at 18. The adjustment was tough for a bit but it was so interesting to see the cultural differences, to hear languages other than English whenever I was out and about. That life seems utterly normal to me now and despite the struggles that go with it to just get along and agree on the most basic things. I get tired of the "Why can't we just be more like Denmark" argument. We'll never be like Denmark. Even before the first white settlers arrived here hundreds of years ago, we weren't like Denmark; different Native American tribes had very different cultures and many didn't get along.
Denmark is a great place to visit, though. I miss it very much, just don't want to live there permanently.
1
@Katherine
Shall I laugh or shall I cry? "The Danes are a tribe and they all pretty much agree on everything". Why don't you check out how many of your fellow Americans agree with you that the US will "never be like Denmark", using the same weak arguments. Denmark is the social democracy par excellence. I suggest you work on being more like Canada, Australia and New Zealand for a start. Your country had help from those countries and others, softening up your enemies somewhat first, but then it defeated Nazism and Japanese fascist imperialism simultaneously. But today the American tribe members all seem to agree: how incapable of greatness are we.
Despite the largely positive view of Denmark's economy, its society has become recently very intolerant of immigration. Any connection?
1
A billion dollars to GM, banks and Monsanto is "saving" capitalism. A million dollars to social programs is that icky socialist welfare. Profits are privatized. Risk/debt is socialized. There is socialism in the US. Only corporations receive its benefits. And the people keep paying...
19
As an avid reader of both the NYTs and WP it is always refreshing to read Mr. Krugman's take on reality. Sadly the standard economics discourse in the USA is clouded with economic religion and bizarre assumptions. Hopefully we will survive the current "awakening" of fundamentalist literal interpretations of the Constitution that are destined to turn it into a dead and meaningless document.
8
Interesting that Krugman doesn't mention two key things about Denmark:
1) population less than 6mm
2) efforts to keep that population aligned with Danish values
The NYT had a article recently of the steps Denmark is taking to make immigrants, primarily Muslim, assimilate. Titled "In Denmark, harsh new laws for immigrant ghettos it can be read here: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/01/world/europe/denmark-immigrant-ghetto...
And just recently a new law that bans Islamic face coverings went into effect.
It seems to me that Denmark recognized something unique about its culture and is willing to take steps to defend and protect that culture. Maybe those are the lessons we should learn from Denmark.
8
@JB ... and which "unique" culture would you promote over all the other cultures in the US?
In Denmark, just as in the US, politicians are weak and to maintain a center right government the center parties have leased their souls to Dansk Folkeparti - this is where this offensive Burka Law comes from.
The Danes have resorted to assimilation because they haven't been very good at integration. A job is the best integrator one can imagine. Unfortunately if your name is Mustafa in Denmark, you are often at a disadvantage in the Danish jobmarket.
While this is not unheard of in the US - job candidates outside social norms still have an advantage compared to Danish immigrants in Denmark.
So, a small, homogeneous population can have its own obstacles....
Tolerance of diversity has never been a strong suit of the right - be it in Denmark or the US.
@JB
Like most Western countries today, Denmark indeed is starting to vote in a more racist way.
The idea, however, that somehow a strong social safety net is only affordable when all people in a country have the same religion or color of skin, is totally absurd and not proven by the facts.
So you can't take it as an excuse to continue to use the government to shift wealth from the middle class to the wealthiest one percent all while destroying rather than improving social security, as the GOP is now trying to do (using racism to notwithstanding their abuse of power still be able to fire up its base, of course) ...
2
Liberals in America all agree on "sanding the rough edges" off American capitalism. We disagree on how to get there. We are being governed by extremists from the right, who literally hate poor people and then lie about it. America's political history says we make the best progress through centrism. FDR waged war and expanded the welfare state at the same time. Bill Clinton presided over an economic boom, appointed liberal Supreme court justices and cut welfare at the same time. Historically, American capitalism has always had less protection for workers than Europe. I can't for the life of me remember when we elected a socialist party to lead America and our economy. In fact, the 80s were a depressing time to be a liberal in America. Mondale was trounced. Carter was trounced. Dukakis was joke on a tank. Why do we want to go back to the bad old days where liberal ideas and influence on America was a long running joke?
3
I am also a big fan of Denmark and their system. I have ties going back there fifty years and love the place. I actually had my wedding there even though neither I nor my wife are Danish.
One minor correction: I think Mr. Krugman cycled from Copenhagen to Helsingør (Denmark) and not Helsingborg (Sweden) just across the strait, a 10 minute ferry ride. I have cycled that route and it is a great ride.
2
Mr. Krugman describes a democratic socialist government that provides health care, education and a decent infrastructure for its people. This is exactly what the the ultra-right wing corporatists (Read: Kochs, Adelsons, Mercers, Wynns,..) who have taken over our government with the help of the Russians are fighting bitterly against. They have spent billions trying to undo every step of social progress made in the United States since its founding. They are recovering their massive investments in buying political control through enormous tax cuts. They have enabled an ignorant, vulgar and incompetent TV clown, Donald Trump, to occupy the highest office in the land.
The United States has become a Banana Republic and will remain so unless and until the usually apathetic American voting public practices democracy and votes in every election going foward on their own behalf against anti-social tyranny.
40
a few thoughts on those glorious utopian Nordics vs usa
- they are much smaller
- very centralized vs. us who are decentralized. DC cannot pass anything basically. DMV is centralized, health is, the communities (county's) are, the voting systems, a national id card --- makes everything easier to implement over there
- can you imagine a national id card over here
- can you imagine having to show it before voting over here, the libs would take pitchforks to the streets
- taxed from crown 1 over there at 30%=/-, kicks in at 50k over here. everyone feels the pinch. obviously if you're a high earner you are paying over 50%
- don't have proof but my gut says the health system is much more sensible over there - you're turned down for lots of stuff, you wait for lots of other stuff - if we had that here they'd be marching on DC
basically they are much more sensible about things. we aren't.
don't know if we can get from here to there, even if we wanted to.
3
@alan And yet Danes have one of the highest levels of "life satisfaction." My guess is that their relatively low levels of inequality have something to do with it, leading to a sense of national solidarity - they like and trust each other. An influx of refugees from distant lands, if they should permit it, might lower that sense of being one big, happy family.
5
@Robert Crosman
life satisfaction tends to correlate highly with racial, cultural, and linguistic homogeneity. Denmark is a wonderful place to be a Dane, but not so wonderful if you are an outsider (even an out-of-towner). There is a strong anti-foreigner and anti-immigrant element to their politics. The USA can never be Denmark or Sweden, because we are a far larger and far more diverse, with or without considering new immigrants. Americans will never trust their fellow Americans like Danes trust their fellow Danes, but even the most xenophobic American is used to and able to cope with a far more diverse society than most Danes. That lower level of trust makes socialism less palatable. as it has grown less palatable in Sweden since large scale immigration began there, but through familiarity Americans are generally more tolerant and welcoming of different people than most natives in most countries.
@Tom: ethnic costumes may be quaint, but a "melting pot" society supports tolerance, fairness, and happiness for its people, just look at the friendliness in NYC, as compared to the hate experienced in up state NY.
It's a good think Krugman doesn't know more Danish. The country's politics is quite nasty, and the Government is proposing taking immigrant children away from them to attend what amount to indoctrination in "Danish values" But if you see everything as proof of what you think already, well, I suppose that's your right.
5
"The country's politics is quite nasty, and the Government is proposing taking immigrant children away from them"
So the worst thing about Denmark is that in some respects, they might end up doing something no worse than what America's just done. Okay.
1
To all those inevitably responding that socialism only works in an ethnically homogeneous realm, there’s a phrase for that philosophy: it’s called national socialism. It doesn’t work. Socialism does.
6
Perfect. Blessed are the meek. Camembert. Feeling a bit peckish.
2
Paul - Just a small quibble: Helsingborg is in Sweden, across the Oresund from Helsingor (Elsinore) in Denmark. But you can always catch a ferry to the other side.
2
@David And to Mr. Krugman---O and Ø are completely different letters, as are A and Å, and "A E" and Æ.
In the U.S. we have socialism all right - for businesses who are not shy about basically using bribery to get their way.
Socialized losses and privatized gains is our current system.
Also, in so far as the levels of happiness in Denmark, I'd like to think that the high percentage of Danes who use bicycles as transport and recreation might also have something to do with that. I know it works for me.
9
I lived in Norway for five years in the 70s and know how tempting it is to cherry-pick the bright spots in their ways of living as models for changes in our ways of living. But the comparisons don't hold up due to vast differences in population sizes, historical roots, and present-day political realities. We wish our Nordic friends well, but let's focus on using American solutions for American problems.
6
The word socialism and socialist is interpreted by far too many on this side of the pond as being pinko, of not even commie pure.
Other advanced countries in the OECD have a social conscience to take care of their citizens, be it with universal healthcare, free higher education, strong unions fighting for fair wages, and the list goes on ad infinitum.
Even when it comes to life expectancy, the US at the bottom of the ladder.
19
We used to have that too. Heck, in the postwar era the non-communist left in France developed a huge crush on American society; the huge and powerful labor unions and the widely accessible middle-class society they made possible looked like Workers' Rights, Done Right.
We've just WAY regressed since then. Lots of countries have, but none caught the Thatcher/Reagan fever as badly as ours - not in the developed world, at any rate.
2
Great column, and heralding the coming of this new democratic-socialism. Fascinating.
We know what an awful economic philosophy looks like -- looking at Congress and the White House; So, logically there has to be a yang for that ying, and this new socialism sure seems like it's it. Albeit, too bad that the word has a totally different meaning now than in the last mid-century.
7
It's like this everywhere in Western Europe. Having both lived there and having dual citizenship with another such country, there's nothing more exhausting than listening to the "socialism!" debate in the U.S. Much less the "oh, don't hurt their feewings with your Euro-elitism!" admonitions. It's like being an astronaut who's orbited the Earth dozens of time, but is still expected to sit down in arguments with Flat Earth Society members, nodding politely and kindly as you engage with their thoughtful and well-reasoned arguments.
As if ANYBODY who, in 2018, is still pretending that there's a debate to be had here, were ever going to be persuaded by argument (or could possibly be arguing in good faith).
22
Perhaps we should say cooperation instead of socialism, but then I am afraid that cooperation will become a dirty word.
4
Like England, Denmark has an old written tradition and no dictatorial "language commission" to enforce the pronunciation and spelling of the capital.
Denmark is a kingdom; it is probably the only European country never to have been a republic.
I don't recall ever having read about the Swedish Republic. And Norway, too, has always had a nominally monarchical regime.
If as PK writes, "what [Danes] want is social democracy," and if Danes have it, and if it works to gird a happier and more equitable culture, then why don't US progressives label themselves "social democrats" rather than " democratic socialists?"
This would seem to blunt the shrill shreik of the pejorative "socialist" dog whistle. Of course, the right would simply go out and find a different dog whistle but at least its propagandists might be temporarily diverted from their soul- destroying campaign of national division while having to do so.
11
I like the Aymleth -- I mean Hamlet -- references: no to only something rotten but also holding the mirror up.
Mr. Krugman - thank you for producing a column that inspires such an outpouring of thoughtful comments that lack the snarkiness cluttering so many reader input opportunities. Hats off, too, to Denmark and democratic socialism!
14
Social welfare advocates using Denmark, Japan, even Canada fail to point out that it's all great in homogenous societies where citizenry views their fellows as brothers with a work & society ethic-were all contributing together. But where the givers vs. takers seem to be one ethnicity or race vs. the contributors like maybe the U.S. it can't work.
Professor-Columnist-Former Veteran Trade Specialist-U.S.International Trade Commission, Other Foreign Affairs Agencies
2
@cup1cake it's not the heterogeneity of the population that makes any social democratic system difficult to absorb, but the divisive ideologies (the poor deserve to be poor; the rich got wealthy and owe nothing to the rest) that have been peddled on the nations airwaves, since the mid 1980's. We were marching toward more social justice before.
12
@cup1cake
Have you been to Europe lately? Nothing homogeneous about it.
So the argument is what? Someone's neighbor is 2nd generation Italian and the 3rd generation Irish neighbors don't want to pay taxes to fix the roads, maintain schools, pay for better police force, etc? Lazy argument for people who don't want to pay taxes.
2
@cup1cake
You missed the last 30-40 years of immigration to the Nordic countries. They are not homogenous societies and we could use their examples to great effect despite differences in our societies. Your givers vs. takers comment is deeply offensive and without basis in fact btw.
3
Dr. PK,
On your very last point, English has some inconsistent pronunciations too.
Look at words with “ough” in them, and imagine trying to remember how to pronounce them as a newcomer to English:
Thought
Though
Tough
Enough
Bough
Cough
Dough
Rough
‘Nough said!
As to the op-ed, like what you had to say.
5
You're an English -speaker complaining about the divergence between Danish spelling and pronunciation? Though I rarely choose -- cough cough -- to engage in such loose language, enough is enough! Tough noogies! (And, yes, I was there in May and thought the same thing!)
@richard.jasper I lived there for a year and found the language extremely difficult. I got to the point of not being surprised (most of the time) at how a word sounded vs. how it looked, and I could pronounce a lot of shorter words more or less correctly, but that's it. People said it takes about 3 years of immersion before it feels easy.
That said---I can't begin to even guess how many times I've felt grateful that English is my first language. It seems fiendishly difficult with all its contradictions to rules (cough, tough, trough, through, anyone?), endless homonyms, all the slang, the bastardized foreign words---I have complete and total sympathy for immigrants who struggle with it. Danish is actually a simple language in comparison: small vocabulary, pretty much hard and fast rules of pronunciation, etc. It's mostly that the letter sounds are so alien to American ears.
There is more wrong with a system than you think when you are able to bikie from Copenhagen to Helsingor, and another hard working individual can’t afford a trip to SF to “Bike the Bridge”, the nine miles to Sausalito.
2
In the USA we do have Socialism, but it is for the wealth. The poor get Capitalism.
25
It's a simple concept that if you make more money/profit, then you should pay more taxes Progressively upwards - not less.
You can call it whatever you want ( Socialism included ) , but everyone is paying back into the society to not only make it better, but in doing so, make it easier to make even more money/profits.
Nothing rotten at all.
20
Though I realize that Paul was being somewhat tongue in cheek, I almost spit out my cheese on reading the notion that words in English are pronounced "the way the spelling suggests".
Here's a little bit of verse long used by ESL teachers in recognition of how spelling and pronunciation work in English:
I take it you already know
of tough and bough and cough and dough?
Others may stumble, but not you
on hiccough, thorough, slough and through.
Well done! And now you wish, perhaps,
To learn of less familiar traps?
Beware of heard, a dreadful word
That looks like beard and sounds like bird.
And dead; it's said like bed, not bead.
For goodness sake, don't call it deed!
Watch out for meat and great and threat,
(They rhyme with suite and straight and debt)
A moth is not a moth in mother,
Nor both in bother, broth in brother.
And here is not a match for there,
Nor dear and fear for bear and pear,
And then there's dose and rose and lose --
Just look them up -- and goose and choose,
And cork and work and card and ward
And font and front and word and sword.
And do and go and thwart and cart --
Come, come, I've hardly made a start.
A dreadful language? Man alive,
I'd mastered it when I was five!
20
As a recent Italian immigrant I can find an explanation to the "masochism" of the American masses only thinking to the vastness of the Atlantic ocean, which is so big that the news can be easily pirated during the journey.
1
Not "fearsome nerd" enough, Paul. If you were you'd not be able to confine attention to the Danish political economy without addressing the frightening side of Denmark today, the accelerating rise of anti-immigrant hostility associated with the ascent of the Danish People's Party in electorate opinion and into government.
3
I was in Copenhagen two years ago. We noticed that food was expensive, so one day at the National Museum we asked the cashier in the gift shop how much money he makes. He told us, and we figured it to be around $60,000. A student told us that university is free and students receive a living stipend so they can spend their time studying. So prices are high, bicycles are ubiquitous, people are friendly, the language is difficult, and the safety net is strong.
25
In thinking about the kind of country many people want to live in, the term, "Social Justice" seems to be a better fit, than straight Socialism. We want less distance between those with the most money, and those with the least, with most people in the middle. We want working conditions that are humane and reward those who work with advancement, either financially or with life satisfaction. We want justice for those who commit crimes, with rehabilitation and second chances. We want a health system that cares for all. We want a Just Society, a more fair society for all.
16
Indeed, the name of the game ought to be spelled "social democracy", a more equitable society that realizes that 'no chain is stronger than it's weakest link', and tries to advance a sound social wisdom we ought to consider: 'FROM those according to their talents and means, TO those according to their needs (for those thinking it was proposed by Marx, think again; it was Louis Blanc; from his idea it was adopted and adapted for ulterior motives; but the idea makes sense if justice has a say). Denmark is an advanced country and with better social justice than most. And yet, flawed in other ways (remember the killing of baby seals with clubs?).
4
the USA is blessed by an economy of myriad possibilities (if diary slumps, we have steel, etc.) which, if encouraged, is an engine that can produce both wealth for its risk takers and the resources to ensure any kind of society we decide we want, (or we have already said we wanted, as in the promises of the preamble, especially in its commitment to "...the General welfare.")
A burgeoning economy, strictly protected from fraud and waste (never mentioned by those who cite cost as a bar to social programs) can draw a line, a bottom line, if you will, below which our own self esteem as a nation will not allow any citizen to fall.
minimums: no kids going to bed or school hungry, no one's health or life at risk because of limited access to medical/dental services, no one's potential for advancement through education or training limited by social or economic circumstances.
however, the chances of expanding social programs in a society that is not the least embarrassed by its growing homeless population, rampant in the center of liberal elitism, los angeles, (known as "hollywood" because of the loud celebrity voices that attract all the attention) are slim to none.
"socialism" is the buzz-kill shot, as was "communism" in the mccarthy/huac era, and, so, progress is stifled by doctrine.
the nordic countries are not without flaws but, in addition to a commitment to their own "...General welfare," and maybe because of it, there is a lot less noise, a lot less stress.
5
Indeed, let's return to Jefferson's goal for government - promote the general welfare - if so, we look "socialist". Why not? But, is the poverty of the center cities of the "liberal elites" proof of anything? The problems you outline are well represented in solid red rural states too.
2
Danes, according to international surveys, are the happiest people in the world. There's a reason for that.
7
@Christy I lived there for a year. I think contentment is more accurate than happiness. But whatever---they're almost all Danish going back generations, centuries---and they all have the same values and can agree more or less on how life is lived. We don't have that in the US. We never really had it and we never will have it. Personally, I think the struggles to learn to live together are preferable to being a homogenous society and expecting everyone to conform to that.
1
Most important in such comparisons is the level of happiness and life satisfaction. There Denmark (with the other Scandinavian social democracies) tops the list.
6
Social democracy looks pretty good because it does something capitalism doesn't, at least not currently. It works to decrease inequality. Any political system, call it what you will, that reduces inequality will result in a society where everyone does better from the bottom to the top.
Inequality isn't just a measure of wealth distribution - it's the root driver of how a number of quality of life measures turn out. There is a huge body of research that shows developed countries that bring inequality down fare better than those that don't - even if they have more wealth.
Two researchers, Kate Pickett and Richard Wilkinson, laid out the results of extensive research in 2009. They drew on studies from around the world looking at developed countries and the problems they face: crime, drugs, social mobility, educational outcomes, mental health, general satisfaction and happiness, etc.
The one big correlation they found was that societies with lower inequality always did better. The same effect can be seen in America by comparing the 50 states.
It just might be time to bring this work to the fore, given the toxic levels of inequality on steroids in the US under Republican rule. Democrats, who have this odd preference for facts and reality, should take this and run with it.
More here: https://www.equalitytrust.org.uk/resources/the-spirit-level
Pass the word.
17
To be fair, social democracy IS capitalism, or at least a blend of/halfway point between capitalism and socialism. The whole point of it was that capitalism didn't HAVE to be oppressive and exploitative, just like socialism didn't HAVE to be violent and revolutionary.
But this is America, so the midpoint between left and right is considered "left-wing extremism," while hardcore right-wing politics are considered "conservative" or even "moderate/centrist."
8
"The truth is that there are hardly any people in the U.S. who want the government to seize the means of production, or even the economy’s commanding heights."
When Marx invented the notions of capitalism, socialism and communism, a government controling the means of production was called communism, not socialism.
Socialism is a political system where companies remain entirely private, but instead of having the board of management/stockholders possessing and controlling the means of production, ALL workers of that company do.
So each worker, no matter where you are in the hierarchy, gets the exact same share of the profits, and participates in all the important meetings deciding about how to invest in the company and how to innovate and what products to make etc.
It is part of a three-step evolution, from capitalism (= the government allows wealthy individuals to run businesses as they want, no matter what hardships they inflict on the other 99% of the country or what national economical disasters they provoke) to (after workers' revolt) socialism (= workers can co-decide, and their paychecks go up because they get a fair share of the profits they're producing) to communism (= a democratically elected government takes in all the profits, gives them equally to all workers, and makes sure the economy is stable and benefiting everyone).
In the US, however, "socialism" basically means "dictatorship" for conservatives, and capitalism plus social security for progressives ...
5
I don't think that's quite right. As I recall, in the Marx analysis, SOCIALISM was "government controls the means of production." "Communism" was the stage after that, when the government had faded away and left behind a self-regulating utopia in which the workers somehow directly owned the means of production.
4
@CP
Some Marxist texts indeed describe socialism as the first stage of communism, whereas the second stage is when "the State" is abolished, or doesn't exist anymore.
But that doesn't mean at all that there would be no government anymore (and it's not an utopia either). It simply means that what Marx called a state, namely a political situation where one specific socio-economical class controls government (a wealthy minority of capitalist, in capitalism, and the workers transformed into proletarians by capitalism during the first stage of communism, also sometimes called a socialist state) no longer exists, as there are no different social classes anymore.
No social classes anymore means that all types of work (both physical and mental/intellectual) are equally paid and that no group of people is exploiting another group of people, so that there's equal opportunity for all.
In such a society, you still need laws though, and an organization that takes decisions for everything that has to do with the entire country, so a country without a state is not a country without a government, in Marxism.
In the socialist stage of communism, workers already have control over the means of production, but do not yet have access to equal opportunity.
As far as I know, "socialism" refers both to companies where that's the case, and the "end stage", where workers make up the government and as such collectively possess the means of production.
Thanks for clarifying. The definition of "state" is what I was missing - I assumed it meant "government" and not a very specific form of government as he'd defined it.
Socialism works great in the USA!
Ask any banker, any farmer, any pro sports team owner, any real estate developer, any businessman who extorts taxpayer subsidies under threat of moving his business to another state, any charter school operator.
Socialism in the US smooths the rough edges of capitalism for the top 1%, but not the rest of us. And that's the problem.
24
If pushed to it, conservatives will actually admit that all these things exist and are bad; but they'll say that those things are "crony capitalism," which is just like socialism and therefore should be abolished too, and so you should vote for them because they'll totally restore a Free Market in which NO ONE gets government subsidies...
They just never, ever, get around to even *beginning* to make a stab at it.
4
Good point but I think you miss a vital distinction. Free market capitalism inevitably leads to ever-increasing inequality. While competitive market capitalism seems to ensure both efficiency and effectiveness. How we divide the pot is political.
Hey Dr. K.,
As an American expat living in Denmark since the reign of Bush the first (nearly 30 years now), I got a kick out of your newbie observations of "things in Denmark".
Watching the slow-motion wreck that has been occurring in the US since I left I have often wondered what are the lowest common denominators allowing the wreck to happen.
I think two of your newbie obs, account, in large part, for the saddening state of affairs in the U.S. - You mention both the lack of inequality and the generally high level of education in Denmark. I believe that the decline of these in the US are key factors that have allowed the wingnut right to be played by Koch & company in order to subvert the Founding Fathers' priciples.
In point, the systematic hollowing out of the American Middle class began with Reaganomics. This trend over the last 35 years has created a society of haves and have-nots. Combine this with the GOPs hostility in general to education and you have a source of disaffected voters lacking the critical abilities to avoid subversion and manipulation by the ultraconservatives that have taken over the Republican Party.
The only way to combat disaffected people being conned by these tyrants is to raise the level of education so they are less susceptible to Koch & Co.'s Trump mouthpiece trumpeting lies and more lies without regard for the truth.
Education and a prosperous middle class are what the US was built on. Let's hope the midterms begin to reestablish these.
34
I suspect the reason that English spelling is more like German that Danish is that the Germans (Saxons) under Alfred the Great and his successors soundly defeated Danish invaders several times. To the victor belongs the the dictionary.
We've been thoroughly brainwashed to believe anything government does smacks of socialism. Nobody is allowed to either teach or research socialist solutions to our problems. Thus we will never have universal health care, adequate welfare or fair taxes. We have been taught that selfishness is our only respite.
7
Funny how facts frustrate fuming, flaming friars of falsehoods. FRED graph demonstrates that the Danes have enjoyed a higher percentage of employment than the US since the Great Recession. 46% of GDP for taxes did not hurt their economy. The UN "World Happiness Report" has continually found the Danes, since the 1970's, to be very satisfied with their lives, happy.
6
This was a nice exposition on the benefits of comparative advantage (which far too few people, especially policy makers) understand, and a subtle dig at the notion that a country has to be 'great' at everything to be competitive on the world stage (which one particular policy maker completely fails to understand). It's also a lesson on the benefits of trade done intelligently.
When Dr. Krugman mentioned that Denmark was 'happy', I was wondering if he would reference the World Happiness Report, which ranks countries along a number of metrics to determine which has the happiest people. In the most recent report, Denmark ranked third (Finland was number one), while the US was 18th. To be transparent, two years ago Denmark was ranked first, so this represents a bit of a fall, but not as much as the US, which went from 14th to 18th.
And, last, I very much appreciated the reference to The Life of Brian and immediately thought of another metaphor-infused movie, The Meaning of Life. Perhaps in another op-ed Dr. Krugman will refer to Mr. Creosote's final mint and the lessons to be learned from it.
5
Any form of social democracy, from universal health care to public education, has immense hurdles to overcome in this country: rugged individualism, the enduring legend of Horatio Alger, and the corporate welfare state.
Unlike in Denmark, Canada, Australia, or just about any other advanced industrial nation, the U.S. is dominated by the belief that man must go it alone in the world, without asssistsnce or interventions by government and that if some make it and other don’t, then so be it. This rationale is dictated and enforced every day by rapacious capitalists, who preach the gospel of the survival of the fittest, but who turn to government to assist when times are tough, or when competition threatens.
Binding the entire structure of American society is money. If you have it, go for more. If you don’t, tough.
13
@PaulB67
I don't think that's correct.
If "man must go it alone in the world, without assistance or interventions by government", then why are Republicans constantly pandering to the wealthiest individuals and defending the idea that the purpose of the government is to vote for one law after the other that redistributes wealth produced by 94% of the American people to the wealthiest 1% ... ?
If the GOP would support a "survival of the fittest" ideology, and their idea that what makes you "fit" is your wealth, then how come that they simultaneously try to make us believe that the ONLY ones who really need government intervention on a regular basis, are the wealthiest 1%, because if not, somehow the other 94% would be even worse of than they are today ... ?
Fact is, there ARE no conservatives in Western developed countries that support the current GOP's policies and ideology, and that's for a good reason: they don't make any sense. They're not fact-based, nor internally coherent.
They're just a VERY weak excuse in order to create the most corrupt political party in US history, which gets access to power only through systematical lying combined with the most anti-American racism, and for the sole purpose of enriching GOP politicians personally.
There IS no real belief behind this kind of behavior, as this is corresponding to the very definition of cynicism elevated to the highest level.
5
Can't forget racism.
In any society where the poor are as disproportionately made up of people that much of the population views as "not full citizens," any policy that helps the poor is going to run in to a significant amount of opposition from people who'd rather starve than see any of These People helped.
3
good points - but a subtle distinction. There are no conservatives is misleading. But, it's fair to say that in today's Trump-led GOP, one cannot be both a Republican and a conservative.
Adam Smith taught us that economic progress results from "comparative advantages." Those can only be realized through globalization and international trade. Trumpers and their isolationism are fighting to reverse 200 years of economic progress.
4
Krugman's joy of being out the US for a while was palpable. Before too long, the comments section will be laden with naysayers and deniers trying to build a business case for why the US is a 'special' case where rounding off the rough corners of capitalism could not possibly work here. Krugman is rightly calling on us to look in the mirror, not the rearview one.
18
The last time I checked, the "labor participation rate" in the U.S. was around 62%.
1
Danish businessmen scoff at the idea that the United States is a free market economy. Instead, their experience of the U.S. market is one dominated by large, politically powerful firms that use their government access to shut down competition. (See today's story about non-exceptions to U.S. steel tariffs.) Because Denmark is a small, open economy, Danish firms must by necessity be lean and globally competitive. "Socialist" Denmark is far closer to the neo-classical ideal of a competitive market economy than the U.S.
69
Unfortunately the United States is not a homogeneous Scandinavian country. We have become very tribal. Each tribe protects its own and will not sacrifice for the benefit of other tribes. The loss of a unifying American ideal is one of the tragedies of the last 30 years.
18
@Gary Cohen
Let's check that hypothesis for a moment ... .
Each tribe protects its own and will not sacrifice for the benefit of other tribes, you claim.
Barack Obama was part of the "African-American tribe".
His signature legislation, Obamacare, insures 20 million more Americans, saving an additional 40,000 American lives each year.
His second most important action was the Recovery Act, turning Bush's -9%GDP into a decade-long, steadily growing economy, and turning a 700,000 jobs lost a month (= when Bush left) into an average of 200,000 new jobs created a month.
If you believe that these two successes only benefited the "African-American tribe", and not the "white American tribe" for instance, what would your evidence be, concretely ... ?
And if - as I suppose - you don't find any evidence to back up such a (racist, of course) claim, could you then please at least give an example of a policy that Democrats signed into law and that benefits one American tribe to the detriment of another tribe?
Thanking you in advance (no irony).
The key is cooperatives.
3
It is actually English that moved away from Continental Latin-inherited pronunciation patterns through the Great Vowel Shift of the 14- and 1500s. To this day, it causes native speakers of English great difficulty when they set about learning a continental European language.
English spelling is also notoriously disconnected from its pronunciation, notice how for example the ending "ough" is pronounced completely differently in the words "through", "though" and "tough". Other Western European languages do not do this.
It's not the Europeans who pronounce things in a funny way. It's English speakers.
8
I am amazed that the term "socialism" has in the United States been turned into a toxic term. To me socialism means the society runs for the collective good of all it's citizens and the wealth and benefits such as health care, security, pensions, and a decent standard of living are a collective right. The right wing thinkers have threatened that you loose your right to individual choice as to your home and personal values in a social-democratic society. they want you to believe that if you are poor, it is your fault for not pulling yourself up by your "boot straps. This seems to be trumpeted by rich people, who for the most part, inherited their initial wealth. I am sure if Donald Trump had to start as a shoe shine boy in Queens he would not have risen to his "Golden" heights. Citizens, use your intelligence, not your prejudices, and keep the United States a democratic ethical society.
25
Unfortunately, these notions of "winners & losers" have been adopted by so-called Christians, like VP Pence & his ilk. Keep in mind the "religious" bent of Scalia, Alito, Roberts, Gorsuch, & especially Trump's current nomnee, Brett Kavanaugh. The right to real religious freedom- separation of church & state- has been perverted by them & other reactionaries (not conservatives at all. Obviously, Trump has never been a practicing Christian. There are all kinds of real losers; let's pray they don't take our great country down.
As HRC chided Sanders during their debates, "the US is not Denmark". An accurate descriptive comment, but knowing centrist/elitist Hillary, it was also prescriptive.
The centrist Democrats are too fearful of the ire of their corporate masters to advocate anything near the social democratic policies of Denmark - even during election time! -which gives you an idea of how willing that once great party is these days to toe the corporate line.
And it's been this way ever since the Bill Clinton presidency, when the center-right corporatist was so worried about dependency on the government teat, he took the hatchet to our welfare program which, at the time, gobbled up a huge chunk of federal outlays - 2.9%, as I recall.
These are the sort of Democrats Krugman supports, so it's bizarre that he now writes a column extolling the social democratic policies which he denigrated Sanders for proposing.
This is when Krugman apologists claim that Krugman favors those policies, he just sees them as impossible to engage. But let's get real: if you keep telling yourself something is impossible, it will become impossible, and besides, no one who writes an ode to the exploitation of sweat shop labor can be progressive.
5
Hillary was right.
The most important differences between Denmark and the US are:
1. The SC Citizens United ruling, which gave a handful of billionaires much more influence on what happens in DC than most other citizens taken together, and which necessarily slows down progress. And that it's totally unrealistic to promise faster progress, as Sanders did, was precisely the point she was trying to make here.
2. Fox News 24/7 fake news cycle, which allows Republicans to do no matter what in DC without being held accountable by their voters as FN spins it in such a way that its audience will be truly convinced that Trump & Co are doing an outstanding job. This means that contrary to what is the case in Denmark, in the US you cannot win elections based on simply good and fact-based policies corresponding to what a clear majority of the American people want, as much of your energy (as leftist politician and as ordinary citizen) has to be invested in debunking lies. And that too seriously slows down progress.
Moreover, many progressives don't want to accept this (quite horrible indeed) unique American situation, and imagine that the problem is that Democrats "are" too "centrist". So then they turn against the only politicians still fighting for them, which once again slows down progress and even hands over DC to the completely corrupt GOP ...
Centrist Democrats don't say progressive ideals are impossible. They merely remember that it's impossible to achieve them overnight ...
6
not so much bizarre as pragmatic. sad when folks buy into even part of the elitist HRC nonsense. any democrat, centrist or progressive is far superior to any republican
"And that it's totally unrealistic to promise faster progress, as Sanders did, was precisely the point she was trying to make here."
It's not just that, but the fact that Sanders was making totally misleading promises and then hammering all Dems as traitors who didn't agree with him. It's not true, for instance, that "Medicare for all" is the only or even necessarily the best form of UHC - MOST countries with UHC have something else. But any refusal to go with MFA these days is painted as treasonous Third Way/DLC/centrist/corporatist evilness. Same with the minimum wage, where trying to raise it more gradually than Sanders wants is also a sign that you're a Wall Street stooge.
Sanders' problem has little to do with his politics, and a lot to do with the fact that he brooks no dissension and insists that the world is divided between His Supporters and Everybody Else.
But it's not just butter - it's pork. Danish smoked and cured ham and bacon are almost double it's cheese exports...and apparently it's very good. But, in addition to butter and pork , there's this manifesto:
The (Danish) Government’s 10 goals for 2020
1. Denmark is to be among the world’s wealthiest countries
2. The Danish supply of labour is to be among the 10 highest in the world
3. Danish schoolchildren are to be among the cleverest in the world
4. At least one Danish university is to be in Europe’s top 10
5. Denmark is to be among the 10 countries in the world where people live the longest
6. Denmark is to be a green, sustainable society and among the world’s three most energy efficient countries
7. Denmark is to be among the best at creating equal opportunities
8. Denmark is to be among the freest countries and among the best in Europe at achieving integration
9. Danes are to be among the world’s most trusting and safe people
10. The public sector is to be among the most efficient and least bureaucratic in the world.
Source: Statsministeriet Denmark.
http://www.stm.dk/publikationer/arbprog_10_uk/index.htm
Make Denmark Great Again?
47
A great column with lessons for all of us by Paul Krugman, as always. I would note, though, that perhaps an important reason that Denmark's agricultural economy flourished as compared to others, e.g. Argentina, may have been, at least in part, because it was a nation of that had not been subject to colonization by outsiders.
4
Krugman once again fails to understand the differences between the US and Denmark, with its mainly homogeneous population. Of course Denmark will never be an engine of invention or have the entreprenurial drive that the US has because it abhors exceptionalism and tries to engineer a level income for all. It is the example of how Socialism is a failure and lack of understanding of human nature. As my German friends tell me, the US population was largely made up of people who risked everything , including their lives, to sail across the Atlantic in a boat to start a new life and better themselves . The ones who just couldn't do that were stayed in Europe.
1
The ones who stayed behind weren’t affected by the Potato Famine or religious persecution.
@James as an immigrant from Sweden I understand the difference between a country with homogeneous population and a 'risk everything' population in North America. As a child of a cross-cultural family, father Swedish, mother Guatemalan/Italian living in Canada I know that diversity is a strength - a joyous strength that helps us build a better life for all of us when we live and work together.
1
@James
It is the example of how Socialism is a failure and lack of understanding of human nature.
Competitiveness, a pecking order, bullying are baked into human DNA, but so are generosity, kindness and a sense of fairness. Depends on the human and their surroundings which traits dominate.
Social democracies, when led with an appreciation of the social contract that ensures a 'fair go' for all, work because the government legislates to control rampant capitalism.
What conservatives and laissez faire capitalists see as regulations that interfere with their businesses (their freedom), progressives/socialists see as efforts to ensure social, economic or environmental justice.
Capitalism, libertarianism, socialism, communism, environmentalism - these are attitudes and beliefs about how humans should live and relate to one another and the environment.
De-regulating access to public lands to provide opportunities to fossil fuel miners is an excellent example of the difference between a capitalist mindset and a more democratic socialistic one. Very few people will benefit from the deregulation, whereas everyone benefits from retaining untouched wilderness.
Healthcare and education are other such issues. These are too important to the whole nation to be privately run. They perform best for the whole nation when a socially responsible, ethical government runs them.
Don't diss socialism - unless you are a rampant capitalist, of course.
1
Denmark is an interesting country. Paul should also consider demographics. The population of Denmark has increased less than 40% in the past 60 years. The US population has doubled. Denmark has very very few black people and without the history of slavery. Denmark has next to no hispanic people. So, small, white, socially and politically liberal vs the US. Just interesting - not sure what the relationship is to economics and GDP, etc
2
@Peter W Hartranft
They have a terrible legacy as slave traders. Google Danish West Indies.
@Peter W Hartranft
And yet another white supremacist comment...
Denmark isn't a socialist Utopian fantasy. It's a tiny homogeneous country. We have 54 times the population & an infinitely more complex society. Denmark has never had to deal with the massive immigration issues or the persistent poverty we have in the US. Their system will never be duplicated here. That point can't be emphasized enough. Why? Look at the tax structure. In addition to high income taxes Denmark has a Value-added tax (VAT), that's a whopping 25% on near everything people buy. New cars are taxed at 180%. That means a Honda cost around $60,000! Gasoline is $7.00 a gallon. Now, if you want to start arguing that there really ought to be a Federal sales tax of 25% then OK, I'm willing to listen. But the American electorate isn't & they're the people you would have to convince. Truthfully you would have have to be on acid to think that you could even persuade liberal Democrats to go for this. If you dig a little deeper Denmark really isn't what American democratic socialists seem to think it is. In terms of economic freedom it's a much freer place than the US. It's also much more decentralized. And it doesn't pay for everything by taxing the rich: because the rich just don't have enough money to pay for everything. It taxes everyone to provide things for everyone. Because that is the only way that you can pay for it all. And those taxes are roughly twice what is currently paid in the US. Americans will never vote to double their taxes no matter what you promise them.
4
@Bill Brown: "Americans will never vote to double their taxes no matter what you promise them." Unfortunately true, even when their disposable income under higher taxes would be greater than in our current mess of a system. If single payer health care were implemented, for instance, most projections are that the amount people would pay in extra taxes would be significantly less than what they pay now in insurance premiums, co-pays, "co-insurance," uncovered medical expenses, and lost income from illness.
But all those extra expenses are much better because they're not taxes, right? Freedom is the important thing, even if it means the freedom to lose your house and declare medical bankruptcy.
4
@pmbrig
I'm not even sure it's "true." It's unknowable at this point, because the vast majority of Americans don't have anywhere near the amount of income that it would take to pay that much in taxes.
"Denmark has never had to deal with the persistent poverty we have in the US!"
This might be the Platonic ideal-form of a tautology. Well done.
"If you dig a little deeper Denmark really isn't what American democratic socialists seem to think it is. In terms of economic freedom it's a much freer place than the US."
Yes. Americans that people like you describe as "socialists" have been trying to explain for years, sometimes decades, that West European nations don't look a thing like the Marxist dystopias that you accuse them of being, and aren't at all incompatible with a more human form of capitalism and economic freedom than we have here. That's not a problem with American "democratic socialists," it's a problem with you having a stupid idea of them and what they're voting for.
"And it doesn't pay for everything by taxing the rich: because the rich just don't have enough money to pay for everything. It taxes everyone to provide things for everyone."
Yes. Because in Denmark, "everyone" actually has money to pay into the tax system; the rich haven't spent decades hoarding more and more of the national pie until they're essentially the only place left to get tax money from.
1
Paul, your tempting me to return to my native land! I long to live in a decent society - that is true wealth.
Irony that in the pursuit of the illusion of happiness in the US, we are miserable working several jobs trying to dig out of the freedom depriving debt and poverty while the ultra wealthy have time and fortunes to spare to manipulate and rig the rules and our government against us. While Danes are simply happy pursuing life with their freedom. Denmark routinely ranks top five happiest nations in the world - something capital (money) can't buy.
Denmark is a capitalist-socialist-democratic country. No extremes. That is exceptionalism! A tiny 0.1% of Americans who have redistributed and corralled all the wealth for themselves? Not exceptional.
17
The key point is not the size of Denmark v. the USA. The point is that across Scandanavia a high tax rate supports a strong social welfare economy. Free education, including English, free health care, etc. Yet one can go to Helsinki, Copenhagen, Stockholm and Oslo and see big yachts and power boats, nice homes along the water and the Finns brag about their second homes with saunas. No one with wealth seems impoverished by high taxes. I think they figured it out. If everyone is better off, so am I.
16
Krugman unfortunately blows his credibility with the comment about Denmark being pegged to the Euro. Any Euro "Problems" which were entirely self inflicted were confined to about six countries. Being pegged to the Euro has had no effect on the Danish economy and the Danes could in any case have adjusted the peg. Not surprisingly Krugman provides us with no evidence to support his assertion perhaps he'd like to but I doubt it.
1
@John Where's the data to support your assertion of no effect of being pegged to the Euro?
3
@CJK
Er...he made the claim. The burden of proof thus falls on him not me. Didn't you know this? Obviously not.
And as I said the Danes (who know far more about this than me, you or Krugman) could have adjusted the peg if they believed they were suffering materially ill effects.
@John is obviously with Hitchens on this one: "What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".
1
It is wonderful to see a country that has maintained that important balance between government and its citizens. Not many left in the world that emphasizes the well-being of its people. The Danes have proven a country can be small but still survive being overtaken by international companies. PK picked a nice place for vacation. I don't think he would be smiling if he picked a bike path in say Shanghai, London, or at home like Pennsylvania Avenue.
1
Taxes are relatively high in Denmark, but the people I spoke to on my last visit emphasized the government benefits they get, especially compared to US: healthcare, childcare, housing, pensions, unemployment compensation. Life is free from the fear of living and dying poor that is part of American life. Starting with FDR, our country make progress along the same lines under both Republican and Democratic administrations. Now, we're reverting to Dickensian standards of living. Instead of "socialism," can we just call it what it is? A decent standard of living for everyone. Make American Danish Again!
25
this is all well and good, but there are two issues not explored: Denmark is much smaller in population, and it's population is much less "diverse". The statement about low levels of inequality is easy to make when everyone is from the same stock. But there are cultures who will take advantage of the suggestions made here, and in part incentives will be destroyed. While I agree that a bit of socialist "sand paper" would benefit this corporate run country, I think it's shallow to compare a multi cultural society like the US to more homogeneous societies.
5
@alocksley
Couldn't agree more. It is a "sad reality" but it is true. The "Nordic Social Democracy" is unfortunately not applicable to US. And regarding "diversity", I would call it more an issue of "human/cultural capital".
Bigger in size + Lower in guman capital => a not functioning system with inefficiency/waste and open to abuse
@alocksley Yes, because many in America would not want Those People to get a disproportionate share of the benefits.
7
@alocksley
"smaller in population, and it's population is much less "diverse". " "homogeneous"
The "diverse"/"homogeneous" euphemism really means other countries don't have "lazy blacks" and "criminal mexicans". Repeating nonsense doesn't make it sensical, and I've heard this trope so many times I could scream.
Size should make it easier to establish social benefits, and in fact did make it easier in the case of Social Security, Medicaid and Medicare.
I've the "homogeneous" trope about Canada, when in fact, the US is only slightly LESS diverse than Canada. The same can be said about all the larger European social democracies.
In other words, quit with the racist code words used by the lazy and uneducated who don't want to admit the US policy and economy is broken and want to keep it broken to their own benefit. Instead, educate yourself by looking at the numbers. The US is MORE homogeneous than Canada and most large European countries.
#fakenews
#RacistsTropes
2
Denmark is basically homogeneous, its citizens all pulling for the common good. The U.S. is represented by many nationalities, all competing for their own interests, plus we're saddled with a segment of the population, about 12%, who we've been propping up for 160 years, who despite having spent trillions on them, have been unable to make the leap that almost all other groups have made.
4
@Jim Tagley Now that trump has been around for 18 months or so, it's OK to come out of the closet and just state one's racism boldly, and not be disingenuous about it. Of course, we can dismiss any historical nuances, and flat out lie, for that matter.
1
@Jim Tagley Do you really believe that a country has to be homogeneous to pull for the common good? Look at the example of your own country during WW II.
Looked like pulling together to me.
The key words are Common Good.
4
@Jim Tagley and exactly what group are you talking about?
2
The value of the Danish Krone is since two decades much higher than both the Norwegian and Swedish currencies, reflecting the successful economy you are describing. I think the reason is an astute budget policy with enough resources for the advanced welfare state and at the same time a sound economy.
4
Yes, interesting observations. But the part that Krugman leaves out -- virtually everyone leaves this issue out of their compare and contrast data -- is the issue of scale.
Denmark is a country of 5.7 million people, and until recently, a near homogeneous population at that. I cringe with doubt when anyone starts into on spouting "analogous" comparison data -- on judicial systems, economic and welfare initiatives, etc. -- vis-a-vis what we should do in the U.S. Most of those analogies simply don't scale in any meaningful way. (A hint: always be skeptical as to how newspaper stories frame and then parse raw data.)
Krugman would be more accurate were he to compare and contrast data between Denmark and the state of Wisconsin.
11
@gking01I often hear this argument. It is intuitively plausible, but it is rarely followed by a detailed explanation of why social democracy can't scale. Why don't you think it can? Medicare and Social Security work pretty well at enormous scale, and America's tradition of federalism offers some opportunities for reasonable local flexibility.
I think there's a much stronger argument that social democracy becomes far tougher in a highly diverse society. Certain aspects of human nature are deeply tribal, and certain political forces -- undeterred by human decency -- quickly see they can gain wealth and power by fanning the flames of suspicion and hatred of the other.
30
@gking01 The bottom line with the homogeneous assertion is that White Americans simply do not want to pay in taxes for anything that might possibly benefit people of color.
This is true but the caveat is we are not supposed to state this outright, but rather couch these sentiments in euphemisms like "Welfare initiatives", "Judicial Systems". Of course this does not take into account taxes that people of color also pay.
People would rather see this country and its Democracy die than have any part of it benefit people of color.
Mentioning race is not the cause of racism. NOT mentioning it and pretending it is something else keeps racism alive and well, and hurts those advantaged by this system as well as those who are disadvantaged by it.
2
@gking01
With all respect, that's totally absurd.
You really think that people with a different color of skin have different social security needs ... ?
The idea that as soon as you're a nation of immigrants, somehow a decent social security system would be unaffordable (even in the wealthiest nation on earth, America) not only has never been proven to be true (people who defend this have never even TRIED to prove it), but is debunked by so many other countries in the West where immigration has played a bigger role than in Denmark (Canada, for instance ... ).
So let's stop this kind of shameful excuses to deny ordinary Americans what all other citizens in the West have achieved as a basic right, and start recognizing them for what they are: racist ideas.
Because think of it: WHAT would make social security impossible as soon as you have a nation with different colors of skin ... ? In what way are an African-American's basic needs (food, a decent job, healthcare, education) different from the basic needs of a white Danish citizen ... ?
Any ideas ... ?
Those who defend this kind of fear, clearly fear that "immigrants" are "takers" - despite all the available evidence proving the exact opposite. So you fear that "your" money will no longer go to you but to undeserving lazy people who want to destroy your culture and values. And then "America" will run out of money. Whereas a country with people who all have nice white skins, has no "takers"... that's it, isn't it?
1
You can have public libraries AND bookstores. The one doesn't necessarily destroy the other. UNLESS you have ideologues in charge of things who, instead of trying to find the optimal mix of private good and public good, attempted to suppress the bookstores and require everyone to use public libraries, or (on the other side) suppress the public libraries in the name of free enterprise.
18
I have always liked being an American, but I am beginning to wish my ancestors hadn't left Denmark! The U.S. has become steadily more unequal in recent decades. It refuses to provide healthcare or a secure retirement for all of its citizens. Public education is under assault. Our infrastructure is inadequate for a modern, developed nation. Dear Mr. Krugman: Can you inquire about Denmark's immigration policy while you're there? Just in case.
41
@Chris Rasmussen
I feel the same way. I still have relatives in Denmark, but I can't get in. Or maybe I could meet some criteria and make it, but my husband and children couldn't. The Danes have very restrictive immigration policies. I get why people would like to go there. Question for me lately is, why do people want to come here?
"Question for me lately is, why do people want to come here?"
Two reasons, location (most of our immigrants are still from countries that are much closer to us than to Europe) and the fact that the U.S. doesn't have to be great to be immigrated to, just better than the nations the refugees are fleeing.
There are plenty of places far worse off than the U.S. that still get a lot of immigrants for the same two reasons. Mexico gets Central Americans, Colombia gets Venezuelans, Lebanon and Jordan get Palestinians and Syrians and Iraqis, China gets North Koreans, India gets Burmese, Kenya gets Somalis...
The reason Denmark is run for the benefit of it's citizens is that ordinary citizens control the government. Their unicameral parliament has 179 members to represent 5,7 million people, or 1 representative for 32 thousand. While in the US, we have over 700 thousand in a congressional district.
The drafters of our Constitution expected a significantly more robust and representative House. In The Federalist Madison suggested there would be 400 House members within 50 years. Gorham, another drafter, forecast 1,400 to 1,500 representatives after 100 years.
Denmark is a real democracy. The United States, not so much.
54
The United States is not a democracy. The United States is a Constitutional Republic.
@sharon5101
Thank you for identifying the problem that Gail also identified.
@sharon5101
It's pretty shocking how commonly this misinformation is believed by Americans.
The United States is a democracy - just a terribly bad one (the Electoral College, gerrymandering, voter suppression, voting on a working day). It is also a republic. A republic is just a country that does not have a monarchy. A republic can be a democracy or not a democracy. The US is a constitutional democratic republic. There - fixed it for you.
Maybe we can meet a tipping point here in the U.S. when people are finally more important than money. Quality of life should be more important than the size of the military. Working toward world peace would save humanity and use resources for good. We had a can do spirit when we sent people to the moon. We need a little of that now. Maybe pilot projects. Health care is exorbitant so maybe concentrate on prevention and cures to bring costs down. Energy is expensive so renewables would help eliminate this drain on our economy. We can combine some creative thinking with some essential socialism. It seems actually fun to think of the possibilities.
18
Your essay made me think about the US, early on agricultural (couldn't be anything else) then adding industrialization (supplementing, not replacing big ag). What's driving our social problems now? Where did we fail with respect to internal economic inequality, especially when looking at other countries (e.g., your Denmark) - though a bit of luck seems to play an outsized role? Our original sin, slavery, is the culprit.
Slavery made America a country whose economic underpinnings didn't depend on agriculture vs industrialization vs natural resources, but rather on inequalilty. Fundamentally, slavery is inequality taken to its logical extreme, and that inequality is to this day our defining failure. I don't know if we will ultimately survive it - or deserve to.
20
Amazing, Krugman is starting to understand that one size doesn't fit all, i.e. reforms in the US would likely be inappropriate within Europe and elsewhere - and vice-versa. I hope he doesn't lose his new humility once he gets "stateside". His views have clearly changed for the better. But he should consider apologizing for his relentless support of globalization and Hillary Clinton in 2016 - and his efforts then to discredit Bernie Sanders.
Still hanging on to neoliberalism even now, Krugman considers Denmark a 'globalization' success story! He wrongly compares Denmark to the US for this conclusion when he should compare it to the other scandanavian countries, which are less globalized and doing significantly better. (Shouldn't he be trying to minimize independent variables?) Denmark enjoys a high living standard DESPITE its relatively open trade policies. Denmark's prosperity pre-dates globalization, of course. The reasons for their prosperity (and for that of the other scandanavian countries) are many. I'm doubt that globalization or increasing their percentage of minorities has increased their prosperity level (at least). In my view, there's no moral imperative for them to do this, just complicated trade-offs.
1
@carl bumba Name one reform that is actually taking place in the USA. I ask you to do that since I whom a citizen of USA and SE cannot think of a single reform even taking place in the US and when I was there for a month the only thing I saw that it would be nice to have here in Linköping was the Discover Jazz Festival in Burlington.
I find your sentence "Amazing, Krugman is starting to understand that one size doesn't fit all, i.e. reforms in the US would likely be inappropriate within Europe..." puzzling.
Krugman was not writing about reforms in the US being considered by Denmark or Sweden for adoption, he was presenting Denmark as a place that might have something to offer for the US to adopt.
The US as represented by West Palm Beach Florida has recently adopted for the first time installation of a Danish designed and built advanced technology solid-waste incinerator - Babcock and Wilcox. You can see pictures of that and even the B & W incinerator 4 km north of me that keeps all of us here in Linköping warm in the winter (space heating) and keeps our bathroom and kitchen hot water feeds tip-top.
Only-NeverInSweden.blogspot.com
I've been an expat in Copenhagen for 3 years, previously in the German part of Switzerland (Basel) and am coincidentally from Princeton, NJ. My observations:
- Denmark is homogeneous, so there's no bad feeling when people are on stress leave, sick leave, maternity leave, or just a "day to bike with friends" leave. Hygge isn't just a marketing gimmick, they are a very tight society (and consequently closed to outsiders living here). The US can never replicate that (Bernie).
- I hated waiting at DMV, Sams checkout etc. but could never imagine waiting 5 weeks for internet connection. Things happen at a more casual pace here, whereas in Switzerland things happen immediately. Could be that the work culture is more germanic in Basel but I put it down to the welfare state in Denmark chipping away at productivity.
- the country benefits immensely from gender equality and women in the work force. If the US can implement anything from here it should be generous maternity/paternity leave, free universal childcare, and no detrimental career impact from being away.
- the income inequality statistics here are good because no one is "very poor". Despite what Danes tell you, and the high tax rate of 62%, there are many rich Danes. Just bike up to Helsignor through Hellerup and look at the nice cars. Then think that the owner paid 150% sales tax on top of the purchase price (yes, 1.5 x the price in tax). It's no surprise there are so many bikes on the road! That wouldn't fly back home.
10
@J Singh
" Denmark is homogeneous, so there's no bad feeling when people are on stress leave, sick leave, maternity leave, or just a "day to bike with friends" leave."
Uh ... are you suggesting that the Danish would feel bad about maternity leave as soon as the pregnant colleague in question would be black ... ?
What makes you believe that they're such a horrible racists?
@J Singh - Denmark is homogeneous? You apparently have not been following the heated political discussions in Denmark about the many Danes who came to Denmark as asylum seekers.
Guess you missed the new law forbidding the burka and nicab.
Or maybe you cannot read Danish? Or, if you can?
Only-NeverInSweden.blogspot.com
Bretton Woods was 'canceled' by the Nixon administration in 1971, and the era a free-floating fiat currency began in earnest, the graph of wages vs. productivity began to diverge. Until then, workers who produced more would be rewarded with higher wages and their standard of living kept rising.
Then the rich decided they needed MORE. Always MORE. So the productivity gains went to shareholders and the C-Suite.
Bring those curves back in alignment and that will be the start of fixing this horrendous inequality that is tearing the US apart.
13
Wonderful piece on Copenhagen and blessed are the cheesemakers. Butter's always been better than guns. The Danes were enlightened by their elite and boast very low levels of inequality in their most social-democratic European world. Employment for Danish adults, shorter hours and a marvelously generous welfare state, also high taxes on "the takers". People are content, reveling in life satisfaction over there. The Danes don't use the euro. Their language, Danish, is easier for us Americans to pronounce, Dr. Paul, and it is delightful to see you bike-meandering on your summer vac in the world's "butter republic", which is a better republic in many ways than ours today. "To be [Danish], or not to be [Danish]? -- that is the question."
13
I always ask my right wing conservative friends why they are so against society? Socialism is simply putting the whole of society at the forefront of governmental decisions rather than the gains of a single individual of that society. Seems to me that is kind of what Jesus taught right?
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@Chris
I tweeted some time ago that there are not as many Christians in the US as they would like to think.
There are fundamental differences between Argentina in its heyday as a producer of primary products in the late XIXth century, and Denmark at the time. The development of Argentina, as you say, was made possible by railways, telegraphs, refrigeration (for exported meat) and ports, essential to the first wave of globalization. In Argentina, they were all the result of British investment and ownership, which gave Britain enormous influence on the way Argentina developed. The land was owned by locals, most of everything else in the production chain by English companies, who had no interest in adding value to raw products, that would happen in England. This meant that any attempt by Argentine governments to diversify or industrialize (not many, but that's another story) would be obstructed by British power over the economy. Britain needed Argentina as a market for industrial products.
I don't know much about Denmark, but I doubt that its infrastructure and ports were largely controlled by foreign companies.
3
Dr. Krugman in the past has questioned the success story of the Latvian economy - https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2016-05-17/austerity-worked-for-....
Earlier, Latvia followed a similar model to Denmark and became the largest butter exporter in the world exceeding Denmark in the period around 1930 to 1939. That model worked then.
Based on solid foundations growth in 2017 was about 4% and expectations for 2018 are now higher, a small economy benefiting from participation in the Eurozone.
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"Nothing in Danish is pronounced remotely the way the spelling suggests to an English speaker."
As the old saying goes, Danish is hard - it can be learned through tough thorough thought though.
But on a serious note, as a Danish learner I would best describe the pronunciation as 'regularly weird,' in that it is unexpected (for an English speaker) but also reasonably consistent once you learn the rules - barring the irregular words you'll find in any language.
17
@Vincent - Exactly the word I used to end my comment, presently at about 38 recs. If I could have added a picture I would added a photo of the baseball cap I bought in Burlington in June
Keep
Vermont (Green map of the state under the words)
Weird
Larry L.
1
The most equal countries in the world (based on % of country’s wealth held by millionaires) are Japan (23%), New Zealand (26%), Norway (27%), Australia (28%), Canada (28%), Germany (28%), Sweden (28%), Denmark (29%), South Korea (29%) and Finland (29%). But remember this means the ‘most equal’ Japan still has wealthy individuals owning 23% of all personal wealth – pretty unequal! Japan has (only!) 35 billionaires which is well below the likes of USA, China, India, Russia and UK.
The most unequal countries in the world are Saudi Arabia (60%), Russia (58%), Nigeria (56%), Brazil (53%), Turkey (52%) – and these are probably the most corrupt (relative to any ‘rule of law’). The inequality wealth ratio is 36% for the US and the UK, 40% for China and 48% for India against worldwide average of 35%. Yes, millionaires own on average 35% of all the world’s personal wealth in property, financial assets and cash.
So if we are to implement socialism, we already have the socially created wealth to do it. We don’t distribute poverty but wealth. Socialism is more than wealth distribution though. It is democracy in substance and action (not merely formal) where everyone is part of the decision making process.
Today the boards and ceos are making those decisions for us in a highly concentrated and centralized economy as shown above. So the talk of expropriation of the means of production is a moot point.
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@Enri What is being discussed is not socialism even the word is used a lot - better to say that programs standard in countries that practice social democracy are being discussed.
2
Krugman's observations are as usual very sensible. That he points out that Danish society provides greater satisfaction for citizens than our society is disturbing. Perhaps this may be a result--as he points out ---of our politicians rejecting out of hand any mention of socialism--even democratic socialism. Schumpeter's well-known description of capitalism as "creative destruction" is true with regard to its effects on workers and bosses. Capitalism relishes competition and not everyone can win a race, so that concurrent with the ups and downs of the Business Cycle, we will always have some "destruction" where some bosses become workers, or unemployed, and some workers move up, some down. New industries or processes make some very wealthy and others penniless. With the emphasis now on robotic technology fewer and fewer workers are needed so that we have greater "destruction" than before. That is why the Republican drive to cut benefits and limit "socialism" is so misplaced and why Americans feel so much worse about their situation than Danes do.
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As to Schumpeter: "create destruction" is a Hegelian notion. The idea is that you have to destroy in order to create.
It's obvious that there's nothing in the real world that obliges us to believe that somehow this would be "natural law" or even an economical law.
The most innovating companies are led by people with a huge passion for innovation.
Apple didn't have to destroy anything in order to launch its computers.
NASA doesn't have to destroy anything to invent new spacecraft.
Teachers don't have to destroy anything to help children learn how to read and write.
And competition is only a driving force IF you educate people in such a way that they start to define themselves and their self-worth through comparison with others. You can, however, easily teach them to consider ANY human being to have an innate worthiness, and to unconditionally love themselves simply because they exist, all while approaching mistakes in a kind and self-compassionate way. In fact, studies have shown that if you teach this to teenagers at school, their creativity and productivity (and health...) goes up, not down.
Finally, even Darwin had already described how survival of mammals depended on COLLABORATION rather than competition. The "survival of the fittest" had to do with very specific situations, where species, not individuals, all of a sudden had to share the same "niche".
Conclusion: here too, conservatives' ideas about economics are pure ideology, contradicted by science ...
27
@shimr and @ana luisa
Very well said and you capture elegantly the essential facts of the matter.
I add my comment to make another essential point - hopefully I am as clear as you all.
The GOP today is perpetrating calculated "crimes" against the "scientific method". This METHOD should apply to anything of import to humanity and that obviously includes political decisions. It is the best tool we have to uncover truth, expose weakness/strength, pros/cons, and develop best solutions - and they - the GOP - have sabotaged it.
If Conservative models don't make the grade in modeled theory or empirically when evaluated under the proper criteria itself is NOT a crime. "Try for fit" of various ideas necessary in the scientific method correctly and honestly played.
No, their "crimes" are against the rigor, honesty, and fair play the method requires. Would you want/allow pharmaceuticals to pervert the method so? Then why let GOP do this?
They suppress alternative models, hide or distort facts, create alternative FACTS (lies), and avoid rigor to obscure.
Worse their evaluation criteria is jury-rigged, misleading, and controlled tightly by them.
Worse through nefarious well-oiled propaganda they trick a wide swath of us that their warped criteria is correct and the only criteria to use.
This is not an honest Progressive vs. Conservative try for fit contention. This is an existential danger. If we want to survive we must stop the GOP in 2018/2020.
1
From a Marxist point of view, "democratic socialism" doesn't make any sense.
Socialism isn't about whether there's a separation of the 3 branches of government, free elections, freedom of expression and a free media, combined with equal access to information/education (= a democracy) or not, it's about how the profits made by a private sector economy are used: if the CEO and his management board or stockholders decide alone how to use them, and use most of what they decide to keep for salaries for themselves rather than equally share it with all workers, you have capitalism.
So you can perfectly combine a dictatorship and capitalism (as Russia and China are to a certain extent doing today).
If, however, a private sector company decides to allow all workers inside the management board and take decisions collectively and share profits equally, that company is functioning in a socialist way. If all private sector companies of a country do so, you have a socialist economical regime.
This too can be combined with a democratic political system, or a dictatorship.
Today, it almost doesn't exist though, in industrialized or developing countries (one exception: see the projects of Michel Bauwens in Latin America), although it did often exist in rural economies outside of Europe.
What progressives in the US want is what self-clared European socialists do: to keep capitalism, but use taxes and federal law to try to reduce its most horrible, unfair effects on ordinary citizen.
2
I just returned from a few days in beautiful Copenhagen -- sorry not to have run into the Professor while there.
Another huge plus about Denmark and especially Copenhagen is how the investments in bike infrastructure have so thoroughly shaped the way people live. A wide swath of the populace moves around by bike and that has all kinds of benefits both individually and for society as a whole.
35
@velomanThey Danes also have an excellent public transportation system.
1
This article is right on (as usual). I have several Danish friends and have visited Denmark several times and, except for the weather, I think it is a great place and a good model for the U.S. to learn from. Fox and Friends are always denigrating Socialism by using Cuba or Venezuelas as good examples. They are not, but the Scandanavian countries certainly are. True, they have sustainability issues like all countries with aging populations, but they have much better public policies than the U.S. and it shows. It is also interesting to note that one of the important factors of why Denmark has much better equality is because everyone belongs to a union. I am not certain, but I believe, there are a couple hundred of them that determine wages and you have to belong to one. Denmark may not be perfect but it certainly is better run than the US. We can learn a lot from the Nordic countires and we should.
60
I totally agree with all of the good things about denmark and hope that socialism will make inroads in the United States now that the excesses of capitalism are so apparent. there is one drawback you don’t mention, Mr Krugman, and that is the Dane’s hostility towards foreigners. I’m no expert either but it seems that when you pay extremely high taxes you don’t want outsiders benefitting from the system; it’s got to be a closed circuit. Denmark loses out on the important contribution that mixing populations affords.
8
As a semi-regular visitor to Copenhagen and many places in Sweden, I've always been impressed with their quality of life and the lack of ego (or maybe less a chest-thumping or realistic views are a better description) about their countries' roles in the world.
It's not utopia - there are poor, for example - but the inequality is not nearly as striking and immediately obvious as it is in the US. Part of the explanation is that our culture has always valued and rewarded to the extreme individual initiative, but perhaps just as important is the Swedish concept of lagom - as in enough, sufficient. (I don't know whether there is a Danish equivalent, but I suspect there is.) Or in an American context: how many homes and luxury cars do you need, really?
Certainly having more homogeneous populations in Scandinavian countries is part of the explanation why the feeling of community is stronger. But to an outsider the difference in the allure of conspicuous consumption between the US and Scandinavia is striking and refreshing.
37
What are the financial numbers supporting the idea that the Danish model would work in the US? Denmark is a small country. While a smaller population has fewer incomes, there are fewer people to support on those incomes. A smaller population also makes social pressure easier to exert, especially the idea of modest living. What can we do here when we can’t pressure the few living at the expense of the many? Tear down the McMansions?
3
What can we do? What we did until the Reagan era 'supply side economics' fraud gained currency and our tax and social policy not only enabled but encouraged the accumulation of vast, unimaginable fortunes and created toxic income and wealth inequality in the U.S.
All we'd need to do is return to the political platform advocated by the last sane, moderate Republican in the White House, one Dwight David Eisenhower. Alas, if Ike were alive today, our 21st century GOP would brand him a flaming, radical socialist. The NRA, 'Freedom Caucus' and the Kochs definitely would not approve.
64
@lulugirl765
What makes you believe that the Danish are living "modestly"?
They aren't, as far as I know (or at least not more modestly than any other Western citizen).
And why would there be any "social pressure" ... ?
The way Denmark obtained such a thriving democratic society is simply through using the tools of democracy, which allowed it to install capitalism combined with a serious social security system, and that's it.
The main difference between their conservatives and America's conservatives is that there is no Fox News spreading fake news 24/7, and Danish conservatives are confident enough in conservatism as a philosophy to stick to fact-based policies and cultivate an interest in and development of science.
That means that in the US, ordinary citizens have to work harder to obtain a solid social security system than in most European countries, because they have to engage in real, respectful debates with GOP voters before things can change. In Europe, spending time debunking lies is much less necessary, because the media are doing a better job at informing citizens, thanks to the absence of massive fake news.
Which begs the question: how come that America's Republicans have invested so much in fake news ... ? What happened to the GOP during the last two decades ... ?
18
@lulugirl765 - If you are going to discuss you cannot use simple numbers as you do - smaller population has fewer incomes.
Suggest you consider one Danish element at a time.
Denmark and Sweden are far along on the road to completely renewable energy excluding transportation. One element of that is that Denmark and Sweden incinerate solid waste to heat cities using hypermodern incinerators.
The US does not with one new exception, West Palm Beach FL (my blog shows pics).
Adopting that in the USA is not related in any way to differences in population size. It is clearly related to 1) US determination to continue to use fossil fuel, 2) The presence of uninformed leaders, most recently Andrew Cuomo, who declared that a proposed incinerator would not be built since it "was bad for the environment". (I do not know anytyhing about the design of the incinerator,maybe it was old fashioned US style).
Only-NeverInSweden.blogspot.com
An argument against strengthening the welfare state in the U.S. is that the country is too diverse, & people are always going to be looking over their shoulders at others who are different from them & assuming those others are getting a better deal or cheating the system. Someone else on here wrote that Denmark has a small & largely homogeneous population, or words to that effect, so what they've done is basically impossible here.
But I also think another problem is the deeply ingrained individualism in this country which makes those in need of assistance feel so shamed, and those getting by on limited means feel more or less like complete failures.
Somehow, a social safety net will have to be configured in this country in such a way as to not wound the pride of the 'rugged individual'--to not even appear to be giving things away at all, AND to have an irreproachable reputation for completely equal treatment for all, probably even equal treatment regardless of income.
But in the meantime the power of the corporations & the super wealthy, and the non-stop conspiracy machine of Trump & the rightwing media, will likely have to be permanently discredited by some type of crisis or disaster on the scale of the Great Depression or WWII before we can even BEGIN to think about how to reform the social safety net. I hate to think about that way, but what other conclusion can be drawn when you consider the anti-government attitudes so prevalent today?
19
interesting article of my neighbour Denmark.. alas you forgot to explain in full all the benefit of the so called welfare state, that DK and also we in Sweden have... we pay high taxes but we get bck so much: universal health care, free schooling from day care to universities (even private schools are totally affordable), 30 plus day of vacation a year, during school holidays if both parents work and they cannot or dont want take leave. children can stay in school, reimbursement for children's expenses, if the child is sick thr parent is allowed to stay home, paid, to take care of the child.. shall I continue? this is what makes our economies work...
170
This is such a remarkably pastoral and generous piece for Krugman that I feel a little bit guilty about bringing a little reality to the table. But here goes:. To have a system like Denmark's, it helps to have had all of your dissatisfied citizens move to an empty wilderness across the sea, and then be very willing to say, "We like our system, and if you want to live here, you also must like our system."
Right here: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/01/world/europe/denmark-immigrant-ghetto...
4
@Charles Becker. I’m not sure I understand your point. Denmark’s enforcing “Danishness” in the lives of its immigrants looks authoritarian but if penalizing parents for sending their children “home” seems heavy-handed, demanding that their children go to school doesn’t. What do we have? We leave immigrants to languish in poverty or we try to throw them out. If the argument is that the Danes are less civilized than we are, that doesn’t fly. If the argument is that they’re forcibly requiring people to accept that with the privileges of society comes obligations, what’s wrong with that? We used to teach that; then along came Reagan to declare that the oligarchy had NO obligations other than looting the economy. The big difference here, rather obviously, is that the Danes tax themselves to foster social and cultural interdependence while we foster division by separating the very rich from everybody else. Our oligarchy decided it didn’t need to pay for little things like education or healthcare, and then it figured out it could lay the blame on minorities. Welcome to Trump, and thank you, Ronnie Reagan, you grotesque huckster. The last thing the American oligarchy wants is a decent quality of life for everybody. They want everybody under the heel of corporate power. Frankly I’d rather be under the heel of social democracy because everybody — except the greedy rich — would feel a whole lot better. It would be a much nicer country to live in.
3
@ADN,
You seem to want to talk about America but the article, the original post, and my response regard Denmark. If Denmark is able to maintain the society they have, it is precisely because they support that primacy of Danish culture, values, language, and social norms. My point is rather deftly concealed in the middle of your response: Denmark is willing to require that members of their society, especially those with the longest path to assimilation, accept the responsibility of becoming Danish. That is not the situation generally in the US. The rest of your response is deflecting from the topic.
In Copenhagen right now. Paul hit the nail on head of the right “cocktail” of social and economic policy can create a glorious country.
An overriding principle of their success is the population judges success by the quality of life at the lower end of economic ladder vs top. They know the “top” will be fine. Rather they want to assure that there is a true minimum standard of living for all and are willing to make some sacrifices.
Crime and unemployment are extremely low. Their prisons are not established to punish but rather rehabilitate.
They also have gender equality which goes well beyond 1 year maternity leave with pay. Their political and corporate leadership is equally represented by women without pay inequality. This attitude carries to the LGBQT community as well.
Meanwhile, they really don’t fret over marriage. Their commitments are made one-on-one without religious or government intervention.
Of course they are concerned about the environment too. They tax autos and fossil fuel at levels we in US would consider confiscatory and promote renewables.
Guess where most security present—US Embassy and unfortunately synagogues.
They take their social and economic values seriously. They punish offenders. But they do recognize all is not perfect and make sensible adjustments.
To boot, the royal family contributed its wealth and gave freedom to its colonies in the 1800s. They recognized the need for self-rule. This might be the greatest tell of all.
24
It should also be noted that Denmark has led the way in successful agriculture and raising animals with minimal antibiotic use. Despite the propaganda of the US agricultural monopoly, Denmark has been successful both economically and financially, in following a scientifically conservative path.
41
It seems that you're pivoting toward being pro-socialist. I'll bet you that when the Democratic presidential candidates are off and running a year from now, all of them will shun this label - with one exception: Bernie Sanders. So will you be consistent and support him? I hope so.
8
@StephenKoffler Krugman says explicitly that this is not socialism. Socialism means that the government owns the means of production; the Danish government does not. This is social democracy.
20
@StephenKoffler
Bernie Sanders? Come on! He has no way to do anything, let alone move us towards socialism.
Scandinavian social democracies were created through decades of team-work, not cantankerous oddballs like BS. '
Good on ya, Paul. I also cycled from Copenhagen to Helsinborg - about 3 weeks ago - along with another 1500 miles.
A couple other observations: Denmark has a population a bit larger than my home state of Colorado and nobody else in the world shares their language. So, English is mandatory in their schools starting in first grade. When I asked an ice cream server if we could speak English, he rather laughed at me and explained why everyone in Denmark spoke English. (He added enough "Eh?" to his sentences, that I presume his English was heavily influenced by Canadian - but better than the American English of "like, ya know?")
Another college student that I talked with told me how "stressed" he was, because "the community" was paying for his education. Not the "government," the "community." He felt that he owed it to everyone to study hard, get good grades, do some volunteer work (that's where I met him), and plan on getting a socially productive job when he finished college. Apparently social democracy does not soak initiative and focus and hard work out of the students.
And, the economy apparently runs on bicycle power (bicycles across bridges are counted at tens of thousands per day). But, all those bicycles mean that the streets are free for what motor vehicles need to do and commerce seems to run far more unhindered than a comparable sized city in the US.
237
I'm surprised that Paul didn't really explain the why of all this. He took a stab at it but then dropped it. So I don't really have a good understanding of how Denmark succeeds, just that it does.
But as a total amateur (less than that in fact), it seems possible that Denmark's recovery was slowed by the expense of its social democracy. Which would be just fine if I were a Dane. I have no idea what the data says but it would be interesting if the effects of the downturn were similarly delayed. Anyhow hurrah for Denmark. Just one more reason to love them. Wish I were there.
13
@Mickeyd No I'll go with Paul's theory. He compared the GDP growth to Sweden's, another highly socialized country, perhaps even more so than Denmark simply because they have been at it longer. Sweden's growth recovered much more quickly basically because they are not locked into the Euro.
17
agree with most points in this piece. But it bears noting that Denmark, for all its wonders, has a population smaller than 6 million. The level of
trust is very high due to the shared cultural context. This is not going to happen in the US any time soon.
16
@Inspizient In a polity which values difference, e.g. the United States, there's no reason why trust should be size dependent.
There is much distrust in the United States at present only because it has been deliberately created and fanned for personal gain. Tiny populations can split as badly or worse: "Quisling" was Norwegian for instance.
1
2 brilliant Danish PhD students whom I supervised, headed home, their 2 books already at publishers, the wee girls these partners produced already glad for the quiet of Deanish speakers and tired out by the Canadian kids' shouts and my U.S. baby talk. The parents were happy though jobs were uncertain.. They had decided that the wife might have a baby instead of a university position - why? Because for a year she'd receive 70% of the salary for the position she might have missed. The social democracy of Denmark seemed so rational, compassionate, and calming to me then, and Canada's very truncated one seemed a good choice, while the U.S. one failed the tests, and is now a dream of the New Deal at best and fading fast.
I envied these kids, man and wife, new PhDs 30 years ago Today we still write and debate far too loudly ways to turn American wealth into a humane society. We have a terrible storm to endure before our ship heads to calm waters. Let us get ready for a tomorrow as good as Denmark's was 30 years ago.
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@drbobsolomon
Dr Solomon,
Our Minister of Global Affairs and head of NAFTA Chrysta Freeland grew up in Peace River Alberta. She covered Russia as an Economic Journalist for many years and her Sale of Century (2000) is about the death of democracy in Russia and the Oligarchic takeover.
Her 2013 lecture at the Aspen Ideas Conference specifically mentioned why Denmark and Finland were best able to resist as is stated in her topic Plutocrats: The Rise of the Global Super-Rich and the Fall of Everyone Else. She mentions Canada as also being able to fight off plutocracy and how the USA and Britain are particularly vulnerable. Five years ago does not seem like a long time ago but her lecture makes a lot of sense in understanding what we are seeing now.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9LIVa3WVPo&t=1064s
10
"The truth is that there are hardly any people in the U.S. who want the government to seize the means of production, or even the economy’s commanding heights. What they want is social democracy – the kinds of basic guarantees of health care, protection against poverty, etc., that almost every other advanced country provides."
This sums it up perfectly in my opinion. Let's start by getting back to being a civil society. Then maybe we can talk about what's socialism and what isn't.
133
I have been great admirer of Denmark, since my first visit in 1969. I used to say I'd love to live there, if only I could learn the language. It is the most egalitarian nation I know. It's also easy to see why Denmark is always at or near the top in assessments of national happiness. However, there have been some troubling developments of late as right wing politics have been on the rise. Notably, anti-Muslim laws that punish women wearing veils and blatantly discriminate against 'ghetto'-dwellers, who can be given double the punishment for the same crime as those living elsewhere. Denmark does have immigrants, albeit in small numbers; and lately it is showing a disturbing tendency to treat some of them harshly.
23
@Rochelle just the other day we had a demonstartion against this law, that forbid women (and men) wearing veils to hide their face in public. When asked, one of the demonstraters felt that it was her right to demonstrate , in fact she was celebrating her right to demonstrate against this "anti muslim" law. So we asked her, should the opposition be alloved to demonstrate for the right not to wear a veil... she called it blasphemy.... and this is what danes will not accept... free religion, in your mind, not to influence or force others... and follow the rules decided by the democracy... quite simply really
So why does Krugman rail against the EU so often? It Art 3 provides
3. The Union shall establish an internal market. It shall work for the sustainable development of Europe based on balanced economic growth and price stability, a highly competitive social market economy, aiming at full employment and social progress, and a high level of protection and improvement of the quality of the environment. It shall promote scientific and technological advance.
8
Going back to the Makers and Takers reference, the economy resembles a structural shift in U.S. where not only do the Takers exempt themselves from any responsible & serious tax payments, but also they become the only absorbent of every benefaction that Finance can provide through the cheer leaders of this state- the politicians of course who thrive on donations that are perpetrated by the same tax cuts and subsidies of all kind.
Can you ever think of Denmark doing this?
19
@Procyon Mukherjee
The basic problem, as I see it, is that too many Americans see taxes as an expense. In the welfare state we see it as an investment in a decent life for all. We can do that because Denmark is hight on trust and low on corruption.
We basically know that we get our money's worrth back from our famous "46 per cent" taxation in the shape of public services and security.
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@Procyon Mukherjee
I'm sorry, but can you explain who the "Takers" and "Makers" are in your example? I'm honestly confused.
And my apologies if its my fault!
@Jesper Bernoe
Here we are high on corruption and should not be trusting where our tax money goes. Trump just gave rich corporate agribusiness a 12 billion gift to offset the losses he caused with his idiotic tariffs -- that is 12 billion out of the pockets of taxpayers like me, who have already been screwed out of our SALT deductions. Now Trump is trying to get rid of most of the capital gains tax by arguing it should be indexed for inflation, when it already compensates for inflation losses by being taxed at a much lower rate than wage income. If your government is basically assembled of mafia-like grifters trying to steal your tax dollars to put them in the pockets of their rich grifter friends, of course you would not trust the government taxing you.
The disaster that overtook Argentina contains the same lessons. It was a disaster with three major causes.
First, world commodity prices collapsed for its commodity. This could happen to any economy, including an industrial economy, if its one product has a massive price collapse. It is a vulnerability. It could have happened to Denmark, and it still could.
Second, Argentina engaged in a poorly organized, ill informed effort to force light industrialization, force itself away from its success into something it had never done, and for which it had no markets.
Third, Argentina suffered a snap back of its wealthy elite taking back control and the national income. It abandoned its ordinary people. That is exactly the opposite of what Denmark did, and got the opposite result.
So Argentina is a test case of the opposite of Denmark, proving the same points. Abandon your people, enrich your elites, emphasize supply side without concern for demand, and you get collapse.
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@Mark Thomason We visited Argentina as late as the year 2000. At that time the Argentine peso was at a par value with the American dollar. What later happened was that only the elites could withdraw funds in dollars while everyone else had to deal in rapidly depreciating pesos. Can you imagine 100% inflation? Self inflicted, of course.
3
I keep thinking that if poverty were to be eliminated, and people employed, if they are able to be employed, or, if not employed, doing volunteer tasks, that a national economy would be better off because more people would be purchasing and investing.........
Is this what would happen if the aforementioned conditions existed ? Maybe not right away, but after a couple of generations that it might take for people to reap the social and health and economic benefits?
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@Lenny
I believe the answer is YES.
1
@Lenny Good enough
It's not just economics. The type of "politics" practiced in the US, more and more, asks people to choose a side. A large number chose the side that is only against things: change, communism, socialism, secularism, abortion, the welfare state, women, minorities, education, etc. The problem is that that has created a great deal of cohesion among Republicans. Democrats, who are generally for things, and not against them, can't present a united front. Worse, Democrats have moved far to the right. Obama was a centrist and the Clintons were conservatives. So now that the actual liberals have had enough
I remember a political cartoon after Bush II got a second term. Bush was driving a stage coach. His cabinet was in the cabin and Bush is warning them to "get ready for a hard right!" Well, Republican right wing extremists, get ready for a hard left.
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@Max Deitenbeck
Is a "hard left" really even possible any more? Would the Mercers, Fox News, Trump and his supporters, and the Kochs (not to mention the new Supreme Court with Gorsuch and Kavanaugh) even allow it?
Really, I'm not so sure!
You picked a great place to take a cycling vacation. Denmark is a beautiful country, and Copenhagen is great.
Because the country is endowed with a highly educated homogeneous society, Danes seem to have agreed on politically acceptable solutions for achieving a sustainable quality of life for its people -- healthcare, education of its children, income distribution, housing, energy, the environment, and the essentials for an egalitarian society higher quality of life.
Looking to the SECOND GLOBAL ECONOMY, we know humankind cannot be dependent on fossil fuels as it was for the first because fossil fuels are finite and because continued use of fossil fuels to power the first global economy would lead to catastrophic global warming and very stressful rationing of this depleting source of energy.
As you look seaward on your tour you will see dozens of windmills on the horizon and as you discuss the economy with their planners, it will be possible for you to see what a "precursor nation" agrees to as policy responses that the U.S. will eventually have to make.
Calling Denmark a precursor nation, acknowledges the work of futurist, Dr. Marvin Cetron, who trained military officers, including me, in his methodology, he determined that Denmark was a precursor nation that would resolve some of humankind's greatest challenges about 15 years ahead of the U.S.
The U.S. has been detoured from the reality of global warming but we obviously must return to the issue.
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@james jordan
I don't want to suggest leaving fossil fuels will be easy. I can't imagine anything more challenging. But relaxing fuel standards is a mistake.
I have been thinking the problem through with many of our engineers & scientists and I are reasonably certain that it can be done by allowing the market to assist the transition.
This means that new technologies must be cheaper and of greater value than existing fossil fuel technologies. That is the reason that my colleague, Dr. James Powell, the inventor of Maglev transport, www.magneticglide.com and Maglev Launch have proposed electrification of all surface transport and developing a very cheap source or sources of electricity.
We believe that the system for putting solar photovoltaic satellites in geosynchronous orbit to catch the Sun's photons and convert to low-energy microwaves to beam to Earth antennae fields, as proposed and tested by NASA's John Mankins, could provide 2 cents per kwhr electricity IF the satellite carrier craft were launched with MAGLEV as we have described in "Spaceship Earth" and by Powell at, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0-npDJlxCA
With CHEAP electricity available to all humankind, it would be possible to desalinate billions of gallons of water for farming, make synthetic fuel for jet engines so we can keep flying with the high energy output per weight of fuel, and develop plants for extracting large volumes of Carbon Dioxide from the atmosphere and burying the stuff.
7
In addition to the successful farm production, I believe that Denmark has sustained a thriving industry of home design, both furniture and furnishings. I don't know what percentage of the economy this amounts to, but I suspect it contributes to the balance of payments surplus.
5
@Alan J. Barnes Much Danish furniture(Fritz Hansen for example) is all but unsellable in the USA even though it is coveted. An 86" two seat leather sofa has to carry a list price of $ 28,000. Could we sustain an economy where products sold for twice their typical price tag and exporting much of our manufactured goods near impossible?
One of the outstanding things about the US is its enormous diversity in cultural/ethnic/social heritage. One of the outstanding things about Denmark is that it's on the other extreme in that respect. Compared to the US, the Danes are pretty much "all alike!"
Think that might make a difference in how the elites feel about income/wealth inequality?
Think that might make a difference in how the poor feel about income/wealth equality?
I don't think that cheese has much to do with it...
7
@joel bergsman -- They're small. There are only 5.6 million Danes today. Before WW1 when this started, they had a population of only 2.5 million.
If you take most parts of the US with only that much population, it will be rather uniform.
It is an issue of scale, not an issue of causation. Uniformity did not create their options. They just took their options.
19
@joel bergsman and @ Mark Thomason. Mark makes an excellent point that I am made aware of in my annual month in my USA, New England. If we are going to compare US with Europe it is helpful to compare a specific part of the US with, for example, Sweden. So I often use New England or a part of New England with 10,000,000 people.
To both of you, I must note that here in Linköping SE I experience a much more striking variety of ethnicities than in any of my American homes.
How did the Nordic social democracies develop their distinctive systems? I am reading a fascinating brand new book about the great starvation in Sweden 1867-1869 that the author argues is what led to the first great political change when a Swedish King became able to change his views on how the poor should be viewed and treated.
My forefathers never got to find out since shortly after 1869 they all headed for New England. I am the only one who came back.
Only-NeverInSweden.blogspot.com
3
Does Denmark have a 1% who can donate dark money to any cause they want? Does Denmark have the scars of Jim Crow? Does Denmark have to have the largest defense budget of any nation on the planet? WELL, see no wonder things are better in the US. NOT.
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@Nb
The population of Denmark is around 5.8, the same as Wisconsin. The population is homogeneous, no one is immigrating to Denmark. Slavers did not send slaves to Denmark because it was too cold.. Purchasing power is 20% lower in Denmark than Wisconsin.
Denmark is dependent upon the US to provide for its national defense, because it is too poor to pay for it itself.
1
@ebmem -- Denmark is not "too poor" to pay for its defense. It is too small to get involved in great wars. It sat out WW1. It tried to sit out WW2, ultimately with a very creative passive resistance. It hasn't fought anyone since Bismarck took a big part of the country in 1864, in his first war to expand Germany.
2
@ebmem
So, why do they actually have a better quality of life than we do? Last time I heard, Wisconsin was having all kind of problems with job growth thanks to the austerity policies of Scott Brown.
Just another note on pronunciation:
"Copenhaygen" may not be exactly the way Danes pronounce the name of their capital, but it's closer than "Copenhahgen" and is the established English pronunciation in Denmark. "Copenhahgen" is the German pronunciation.
3
REPLY to Longestaffe.
Hi! I’m Danish American. Last name: Tve/skov (Two/Woods). Love talking about Denmark! Sadly Dad never taught us Danish. He said it was a very small country and no one else spoke Danish so why bother. But! I’d always say, half my family speaks it! Truthfully though, it is a difficult language to learn and luckily most Danes begin learning English while young and speak it very well. When I first visited in the 70’s I noticed that they used subtitles & didn’t dub the American shows. I’m sure that helps them learn it. Anyway, though I don’t speak Danish, I’ve been there several times to visit my family so I’m a bit familiar with it.
You are so right, my Dad, who grew up in Copenhagen, does not like the German/English pronunciation of Copenhagen at all! After all the Germans occupied Denmark. And, if you would indulge me, I would like to add the Danish spelling of Copenhagen. It is Københaven. My pronunciation & my official pronunciation symbols are terrible but I’ll do my best & just sound it out: “Koo-ben-hown”, accent on the first syllable.
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@ST
Wow! Thanks for your reply. That's all very interesting, and educational as well.
My wife and I had a wonderful time in Københaven and Helsingør not long ago and were delighted to find that we could just nip over to Sweden on the ferry from Helsingør as easily as going to another part of the same country.
You're lucky I'm not in a position to bore you with my snapshots. A lot of them would be pictures of delicious and healthful food, though.
2
@ST
"kur-ben-hown" is closer to the Danish pronunciation.
How many wars is Denmark waging? If US taxes were not so heavily dedicated to our military involvements, we too could look good.
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@Amelia B. If Denmark had the same capital tax/earned income tax ratio as the US, it would not look so good. The biggest problem with the amount of tax money the US spends on the military is that it is coming from wage earners.
14
@Amelia B. As a faithful ally, Denmark is waging pretty much the same wars America is, e.g. in Afghanistan, where I gather the Danes have taken more casualties than the US on a per capita basis. As far as I know, Danish pilots flew the first missions when NATO intervened in Libya (for better or worse). Social democracy doesn't equate to pacifism.
6
@Amelia B. Then maybe we should stop waging wars, particularly ones that we cannot win in areas that don't want us.
I take it you admire the better growth in our nation since 2008. At this time, we are experiencing nearly absent controls on our economy as growth is exceedingly good and the government is morally bankrupt, paying off those who won them power with tax cuts and now further taxing the massive population with Tariffs to offset those paybacks to the wealthy for financing their campaigns.
As I read your essay, I thought to myself that our economy is headed to cyclic recession or worse with the price of fossil fuels, the foundation of our economy, now more than doubled since Trump won, and the possible tariffs of up to 25 percent on consumer goods, two thirds of economic activity. Sometime, the dream we are living will fade as we awaken to the bills. that means that even if Republicans remain in power, we will have to resort to socialist programs just to keep peace in the public.
As you know, sometimes Republicans preside over temporary growth which they destroy through profit taking policy, only to be followed by Democrats who rebuild the economy from the ashes of recession, or worse, to become, mostly socialist.
With a big trade deficit and impending tariff taxes, the economy will decline unless manufacturing returns to our nation. American business is responsible for some of the trade deficit.
Regarding Mitt Romney's "Makers and Takers"; we little people are the "Makers" in their factories and businesses that the wealthy "Takers" profit from.
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@Shakinspear -- The price of oil was driven up quite deliberately, by forcing conflict with multiple producers all at the same time.
It benefits some narrow US interests, from fracking to neocon dreams. It is however economically foolish.
It is even militarily foolish -- one war at a time, please, everyone ought to know that.
Fortunately, the price of oil can come down just as fast, from just not doing those things.
6
@Mark Thomason
In addition Mark, the Congressional Republicans repealed the prohibition on exporting crude oil, sold some of the national strategic reserve crude oil and are now trying to sell Europe Liquified Natural Gas all of which will put upward pressure on prices for Americans as the Republicans serve the fossil fuels industry. Trump and his Republican Congressmen must be heavily invested in the industry.
1
@Shakinspear
Mitt, who basically invented the Bain Capital American Industry Demolishing Process, whereby you buy a successful made in America manufacturer, load it up with unsustainable debt only to pay yourself huge unearned benefits, sell off the equipment and all the assets, having robbed the manufacturer of all its cash, and ship its useful assets overseas to China or India or some other place paying slave wages and lay off all the American workers without severance or pension or health care after forcing them to train the foreign workers on the equipment you are sending off for a few measly weeks of extra work, is about the biggest taker I can imagine. That is how he got rich, unlike his father, who actually headed an American auto manufacturer, that made products and employed people right here. But of course our Congress did not do anything to make this illegal or costly.
2
A bio digester on the edge of our town produces enough roughly enough electricity from agricultural wastes to meet the town's needs, although the electricity goes onto the grid, from which we buy our electricity. Years ago, when the project was first debated, I turned to Denmark for information. My Danish contact was surprised that we did not have bio digesters everywhere. 'We have them all over the place he said, 'My brother in law produces all his electricity from waste from his hog raising operation.'
Later, when I was researching wind energy, I turned to Denmark again. Denmark was an early adopter of wind turbines, which are a major source of electricity in fossil fuel poor Denmark. Many of the giant turbines now being installed on the Great Plains come form Denmark, via the St. Lawrence Seaway and the Great Lakes, unloaded at Duluth. Maresk, the giant shipping company, is based in Denmark, which is surrounded on three sides by water. Denmark lacks the natural resources we have. Danes are just smarter about what they do with what they have.
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@Prairie Populist -- The US does have coal and oil. It was once totally dominant in the world market in those things. So of course the US used them freely.
Now, not so much, and not so much advantage anyway. Times change. We haven't.
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@Prairie Populist
Minnesota has a population equivalent to that of Demark and also has a similar, all white population. It exports food and with the small population of your town, generates enough biofuel to power your town.
Your experience is not scalable to the US.
@Prairie Populist - Yet another well informed reader providing information the NYT refuses to provide. I use the word "refuse" because the only Times writer who even mentions such systems is Diane Cardwell - Business section and when she does she gives us one sentence or word.
I have asked her repeatedly to give information such as you give both for Nordic countries and US. She promised long ago to mention heat pumps and she actually used that phrase once.
So in some sense the Times "refuses" to provide information.
Thanks very much for the information.
Only-NeverInSweden.blogspot.com
Citizen US SE
2
Of course life satisfaction is much higher! What difference does GDP per capita make when it is simply an average. Denmark sits somewhere near the top of list in income equality. The US sits neatly between Uganda and Haiti.
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@Doug
And the leaders of both these countries (Uganda and Haiti) are so far from God and so near to America in income Egality, as well as Equality of social mobility.
"Tycho", on the moon. "Tyco" in Denmark--?
2
https://voxeu.org/article/role-elites-development-denmark
June 8, 2018
Getting to Denmark: The role of elites for development
By Peter Jensen, Markus Lampe, Paul Sharp, and Christian Skovsgaard
Denmark is a paragon of economic development because it rapidly modernised its agriculture 150 years ago by using technology and cooperatives. This column argues that Denmark's development story has in fact been misrepresented. Rapid agricultural development was the end of a process begun by landed elites in the 18th century. It may be a mistake to cite the case of Denmark to argue that a country with a lot of peasants and cows can cooperate its way out of underdevelopment.
Francis Fukuyama (2011), a political scientist, once described the challenge facing developing countries as the problem of “getting to Denmark”. This metaphorical Denmark would be a society characterised by wealth, the rule of law, good governance, and related virtues.
But how did Denmark get to Denmark? ...
[ Excellent. ]
17
@Nancy: Very interesting. Origins go way back, don't they! Compare with the "enlightened"???? elite aristocracy in Russia, to name one. On the other hand, how does Germany compare?
But Francis "End of History" Fukuyama? You cite HIM?
4
@Nancy Britain had super-productive agriculture as early if not earlier than Denmark. The Enclosures of common lands in England and the Highland Clearances in Scotland helped to consolidate the countries' lands under gentry and aristocratic rule, more oriented to efficiency and sometimes monoculture. By 1914 just 3% of the population remained on the land -- a figure the US reached only after WWII.
But in the UK large upper crust landowners managed to hang on to almost all the gains from increased productivity. This supported a snobbish upper crust to enjoy the lifestyle portrayed in Downton Abbey. How is it then that Denmark's early agricultural revolution led to benefits for so many, while the UK's ended up in a society rated among the least equal of developed nations.
.
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@Fiorella: Isn't the answer obvious? The elites treated the land and people differently in the two countries. That is what Nancy wanted us to notice.
1
SOCIALIST COMMANDMENTS (ref: wiki)
UK labor was horrendously exploited 1890s-1900s. Workers had no leverage to improve conditions. They took their children from the exploitative “rewards in heaven” Christian Sunday schools to raise that generation in Socialist Sunday schools. It got attention. Note NO commandment about GOVERNMENT-OWNED INDUSTRY. It’s about human dignity and fairness. This mirrors aspirations of our widely-exploited Millennials.
1. Love your school-fellows, who will be your fellow workmen in life.
2. Love learning, which is the food of the mind; be as grateful to your teacher as to your parents.
3. Make every day holy by good and useful deeds and kindly actions.
4. Honor good men, be courteous to all men, bow down to none.
5. Do not hate or speak evil of anyone; do not be revengeful, but stand up for our rights, and resist oppression.
6. Do not be cowardly, be a friend to the weak, and love justice.
7. Remember that all the good things of the Earth are produced by labor, whoever enjoys them without working for them is stealing the bread of the workers.
8. Observe and think in order to discover the truth; do not believe what is contrary to reason, and never deceive yourself or others.
9. Do not think that he who loves his own country must hate other nations, or wish for war, which is a remnant of barbarism.
10. Look forward to the day when all men will be free citizens of one fatherland and live together as brothers in peace and righteousness.
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38% of total full time employment in Denmark is by the public sector. 13% of the total population has a government job.
In the US it's 17% of the workforce of 129 million. With a population of 327 million, that makes the percentage of public sector workers as 6.7% of the population, about half the rate in Denmark.
Those who believe government does a better job than private industry would clearly prefer to live in Denmark, or the other Scandinavian countries where the figures are comparable.
17
@kwb
In Canada we are more like Denmark than the USA. I imagine most Canadians are a lot like me and cronyism and nepotism can be part and parcel of both the private and public sector. That is why our civil service is well paid and is run by the best people and when the public and private sector compete for the best people the citizens of Canada and Denmark live in the best country possible. I like to talk about the financial crash of 2008 and why our economy didn't crash and neither did our private sector banks even as our international corporations like GM and Chrysler teetered on the brink and hijacked the money needed for health education and welfare.
68
@kwb -- Apples and oranges. This counts health care as private jobs in the US and public jobs in Denmark. What ought to matter is that we spend 50% more on health care and get less of it in return.
31
@kwb if we increased the number of ‘gumint workers I might get some roads fixed. Been waiting for 25 years.
4
Today, America holds the key to super-size Denmark's story and become the leading global hub for food production, shipping, and security, by acting a key demand--the rising, consistent demand for labor in rural and farm regions, Midwest, South, West, from shrimping to farm crops, to processing, packaging, and shipping.
That work force has peacefully sought to join the US team and is considered the best agricultural work force on the planet! Use merit screens and special visas to let them enter the US; then use their skills, reliability, consistency to build the US into the global bread basket with business clusters and economies of scale.
Turn the negative into a positive! Innovating in people will bring prosperity and expand opportunity--not rapists and M-13.
21
@Walter Rhett
Immigrants would be filling unfilled jobs--rural companies, in food production and other small factories are actually turning away new work because they do not have the labor force in place to fill positions and meet demand. The demagoguery of Latin immigrants looks right past the raising demand for rural and agricultural labor, the extra production labor enables, the improvements in quality and safety.
The US has always imported labor to meet demands. It is only Trump's racism and vile hate that makes this vital profit center, agriculture, and its global good will, an imagined threat, with America and the world losing as Trump wants a military force for space!
38
@Walter Rhett, well no. Don't rely on Latin Americans. Their birth rates are rapidly dropping and soon they will not be there for us. This has already happened with the Mexicans. They are no longer immigrating. Soon it will true with Central Americans also.
Interesting post, and there's much to be learned from social welfare states like Denmark. But the Danes are a small, fairly homogeneous population with a long shared history, which gives them a strong sense of connection and community with fellow Danes. America is a sprawling, brawling, entrepreneurial nation of immigrants that more and more is dividing itself into competing tribes, so lessons from Denmark don't necessarily apply here. But your observations make me want to live there.
45
@Greg Otis
I entirely agree. Denmark and the other welfare countries in Europe are now subject for the first time in modern history to non-trivial immigration from people seeking a better life and it will be interesting to see how this plays out regarding the social structure.
4
@DocM---You're right, we have the means...but not the will. In all societies there's a constant tension between individualism and collectivism, and in the US, sadly, individualism generally wins.
Don't forget Daddy Warbucks. Defense is big business, and defense exports are too. It provides many paychecks, and produces many engineers and scientists and business people. R&D is huge, and the spinoffs produce big civilian businesses. So it would be interesting to look at what the defense industry provides to the total enonomy, not just the costs.
Although predictable and predicted, the self-assigned label of socialist will probably be the demise of the candidates going that route. It doomed Bernie, and still does.
I hope not, as they seem to be the only ones with an economics agenda that could help the middle class.
We'll see...
43
@WJL Yes I agree and even fear that a serious mistake was made by Bernie and now some new names on the scene, perhaps because they failed to see how the Nordic countries see themselves and are seen by scholars who have studied and write about socialism.
Here is an article that provides corrective information, pointing to Sanders specifically.
https://fee.org/articles/the-myth-of-scandinavian-socialism/
What I have read about Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez suggests that she pretty much wants to introduce social democracy in America, that is the form of government and the policies of countries like Sweden, Denmark, and the other Nordic countries.
These governments are not socialist nor are their policies and they are only seen as far left by those who write in US publications, even the NYT.
Unfortunately, it seems that both Sanders and Ocasio-Cortez never did enough homework to learn about the countries whose model they seem to base much of their thinking on.
A major error on their part.
Only-NeverInSweden.blogspot.com
1
Americans have been badly deceived by conservative elites into believing that our capitalist economic system is a truly free market economy.
The truth is that there is no such thing as a free market economy devoid of government intervention. Our government chooses winners and losers via laws and regulations which favor the wealthy, corporations and shareholders over workers.
The integrated global economy is an inescapable reality that is our best hope for global prosperity and peace. It need not be harmful to any economy and it is not harmful to most European economies like Denmark’s. However, our government must lose its laissez-faire approach and take proactive legislative and regulatory measures to minimize harm and actualize the potential of additional corporate growth. For example, our government can pass laws that encourage companies to manufacture products here with American workers. Our government could also force companies which manufacture products abroad but maintain their headquarters here to pay U.S. taxes.
23
@Howard Gregory
As you wrote, we do not have a laissez-faire economy. Our tax system gives YUGE subsidies to the oil sector and real estate development, and taxes labor at much higher rates than earnings on capital. We also allow most corporations to escape paying for their costs on society, like we are doing with the fracking industry and industrial feed lots right now, not to even mention the lack of a carbon tax assigning the true climate warming cost to our environment of industries like aviation.
Helsingborg is on the Swedish side of the strait. Helsingør is on the Danish side. I too have had the pleasure of riding a bike from Copenhagen to Helsingør plus many more days on a bike in Denmark, Sweden, Germany and the Netherlands. The experience just cemented the idea in my head that the US is a backward country. You see I have also ridden from coast to coast in the US. We saw boarded up and for sale businesses everywhere in the middle of the US. This part of Europe seems much more successful.
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@Bob Carlson Have also had the pleasure of riding from Copenhagen to Helsingør. Lunch and a beer, visit the castle, take the train back. Awesome! But we need to adopt a European approach to social welfare. Unfortunately, Ontario just abandoned a small experiment in a guaranteed minimum income. We could have learned a lot...
18
In our case we were riding from Amsterdam to Stockholm with a couple train rides thrown in and ferries to Helsinki and Talinn. A wonderful trip. And yes, we can learn an enormous amount from Europe.
1
@Bob Carlson
Salutations, Bob.
We are not backward. We are beyond CAPITALISM. We have crossed the border into UNBRIDLED CAPITALISM. Long time ago I read a book about Humans Hunting Humans. The present day American Capitalism has taken a turn towards that.
You see, Mergers and Acquisitions, create behemoths, and wealth gets accumulated into fewer and fewer hands.
The real lesson of Denmark is : Mercantilism works! Denmark has an unusually large trade surplus, with a 2017 current account balance of +7.8% of GDP. What is surprising is that Denmark has run a large trade surplus every year since at least 2005. That is not at all what textbooks predict for free trade.
I think that Denmark's trade is somehow being managed by the government. I don't think that Denmark is as open to globalization as it looks to be. Preserving those kind of trade surpluses surely requires some kind of government intervention.
It is also important to point out that Denmark is quite small, with a total GDP only 1.5% of the US. That matters because a lot of trade is driven by economies of scale. Denmark does not have the economy of scale to produce a commercial aircraft, or the microprocessor chips which go into computers and cell phones. In order to have all the things that we have in the US, they have to participate in trade, even if there are big problems with the global trade system.
It is also worth noting that GDP per capita in Denmark is only 83% of the US. So they are a poorer country, but still manage to provide things like healthcare for all and free college.
Finally, some context. Denmark has a population of 5.8 million, comparable to Wisconsin or Minnesota. Exports are 56% of GDP, compared to 12% in the US.
3
Why did they do this? To keep out the foreigners, they made it wrong.
@Russ Hunt The Brits can't spell, either. The Thames? Please. Spell it "Tim's."
To answer your linguistic question first: Denmark is a member of the North Germanic language family while English & German belong to the West Germanic family. These families probably diverged well over a thousand years ago. If you heard someone speaking English from a thousand years ago you'd have a really hard time understanding him.
It's also true that Danish has some unusual sounds even compared to its close relatives Swedish & Norwegian. Something in the water?
Thanks for your discussion of the term socialist. I've been wondering if its meaning had changed since like you I've heard very little call for the government to take over the commanding heights. After learning the meaning of the words communism, socialism & capitalism I later was told that Sweden wasn't really socialist, rather they had a form of welfare state capitalism. Which is looking really good right about now.
There are those afraid that using the S-word will help the Republicans. Hmm. So folks in Tennessee won't vote for a Democrat because a Democrat in NYC calls herself a socialist? But back when there thirty odd Republican congressmen who were birthers that didn't seem to hurt the Republicans nationally.
Actually I think defanging the S-word is a very good thing. Let's talk about the actualities of a proposed law not what its label is.
30
@Jack Toner
Those folks won't vote for a Democrat either, so I doubt that the socialist label will make anything much worse.
Thank you Paul Krugman for the two paragraphs in which the American use of the word "socialism" is clarified and the correct term for what we in the Nordic countries live with is given,social democracy. Your observation that in America "any attempt to make our system less harsh is (seen as) socialism is quite helpful.
That is exactly how Peter Suderman sees socialism, at least to judge from his Times article 2/8 in which he presents Nordic social democratic practice in these over-the-top characterizations:
“Ms. Ocasio-Cortez's brand of expansive, expensive socialism...”
and
"Ocasio-Cortez has embraced...a blue-sky vision of American socialism..”
So far it appears that Ocasio-Cortez and earlier Bernie Sanders present Nordic social democratic practice that is tagged as "socialism" and that thanks to O-C's affiliation will continue to be tagged that way..
Universal Health Care that is part of such practice in Sweden is far less costly than American medical care and is expansive only in the sense that it is there for all of us. It is not "blue sky" but rather is down to earth and measured in public health terms gets better results..
The last time I could read such a sane presentation in the Times of Denmark's social democracy was in 2010 in Elizabeth Rosenthal's articles on Danish solid-waste incineration.
The Times needs to send reporters over here to provide reports of the quality of Rosenthal's and yours.
And yes, spoken Danish really is weird.
Citizen US SE
80
@Larry Lundgren
I am grateful we are seeing a lot more of the description liberal democracy and the word we use to describe the American economy neoliberalism.
I am always upset to see the word democracy attached to our economic system and it always brings to mind the Irish starvation when three million people at the bottom of the economic ladder were made to disappear during boom years for Ireland's FOOD EXPORT economy and the reason one million starved to death and two million more were sold into the poverty of the new squalid cities of the Industrial Revolution is still given as famine.
16
@Larry Lundgren Tusen takk! Larry Lundgren puts his finger right on the problem that Mr. Trump raised for himself if we consider it. Remember how he wished for more Norwegian immigrants to the US? Now we are all clear why he and his white supremicist nice people would want that. But in reality it would be their immediate undoing. Not because of skin color but because of Scandinavian attitudes andmentality. Hardly anyone in Nortern Europe can or would ever understand American stubborness on healthcare, public education, welfare or praise of the very rich let alone our exceptional hate of minorities, the aged or gay people. If only the Scandinavians would drop in and save us from ourselves, I for one who has lived in Norway and speak Norwegian and has visited and marveled at society there and in Sweden and Denmark would be more than grateful.
3
So now you are learning Danish? Your brain is amazing. But I agree that the Germans got it right. I have enough trouble (although well worth it) with Goethe and Kafka. No Dane is close to them, so far as I know.
2
Oh, please. Try and keep up with the likes Niels Bohr. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niels_Bohr
1
As a Dane it’s always interesting to read an outsider’s perspective on our country.
Hate to be a stickler for detail, but Elsinore is Helsingør in Danish. Helsingborg is a Swedish city right across the Sound, literally visible from Helsingør!
And one more thing for your American readers: Denmark is in Scandinavia and Danes speak Danish, not Dutch!
17
@Pigenfrafyn - Where does Krugman say that Danes speak Dutch? All he says as far as I can see is that Danes pronounce the words in their language in a way that no one can guess from looking at a printed page in Danish.
I watch Danish TV series shown in Sweden with Swedish subtitles and only rarely can I recognize a Danish word that is pronounced close enough to its Swedish counterpart to recognize the word.
We got a good chance to compare during the four seasons of the Danish-Swedish series "Bron" in which the two main characters were a woman from the Swedish police and a man from the Danish.
My all time favorite TV character was the extraordinary Swedish police woman, Saga, played by Swedish acress Sofia Helin.
Only-NeverInSweden.blogspot.com
Citizen US SE
2
First, nerds are sexy. I'm a nerd, the Husband is the ultimate nerd, an Engineer. Secondly, I love " butter republic ". So simple, so evocative, so true. Ours is also a republic based on semi-solid fats. That would be pork and lard. Encompasses the Congress, their Rich masters and especially their " uneducated " fans and voters. The Fat of the Land, and NOT in a good way. No, I'm NOT fat shaming, I'm plumpish myself. I'm just stating the obvious, and the SAD. Seriously.
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@Phyliss Dalmatian We are guns, they are butter. Or cheese. Cheese is my chocolate fyi.
Boths sides are adept at labeling each other, but conservatives get the nod for using “liberal,” and “socialist” to cause a knee jerk reaction. Truth is today you can either be socialist or “anti-social.” I think I know where I fit in.
16
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=kLYT
August 4, 2014
Real per capita Gross Domestic Product for Sweden, Denmark, Norway and Finland, 2007-2017
(Percent change)
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=kLYS
August 4, 2014
Real per capita Gross Domestic Product for Sweden, Denmark, Norway and Finland, 2007-2017
(Indexed to 2007)
2
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=kLWq
January 15, 2018
United States and Denmark Employment-Population Ratios, * 2007-2018
* Employment age 25-54
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=kLWX
January 15, 2018
United States and Denmark Employment-Population Ratios, * 2007-2018
* Employment age 15-64
3
You didn't address the wave of bigotry towards Muslims in Denmark. There is truly something rotten in Denmark right now. There are interesting observations to be made about how social democracy is easier to achieve when you have a homogeneous population
12
We spent December and January in København in 2015. When we crossed the border from schleswig Holstein in 2017 we were shocked to see a border checkpoint. Being white we rode through with hardly a glance.
I try not to judge Denmark too harshly on this. They do so much right. They have overreacted in this case I believe. However, we outsiders have no idea how different the immigration question is in Europe. The scale of the refugee problem is huge.
2
@z Not much experience with Europe. Only visited London for a minute, but diversity is the challenge of our times. There was a time (before Taft/Hartley) where the US was on a "social democracy" path, but then MLK came along, blacks became eligible for government aid on the same basis as whites and said government help has been demonized by the GOP ever since. Comparing a demographically archaic white place to the US is comparing apples and oranges.
1
@z
It is not a WAVE but there certainly problems.
By the way, Mr. Krugman, the title of your article is slight misleading: I hope you have noticed that Denmark is not a republic, but a monarchy, nowadays one of the most stable and dependable forms of government. which does not risk being hijacked by extremists, bigots or reactionaries like you know who.
95
"...Denmark is not a republic, but a monarchy, nowadays one of the most stable and dependable forms of government."
The whole monarchy thing becomes a problem when the ruler is a tyrant, idiot, or ineffective in other ways. And then there are the royal heirs who stand to inherit the throne. Picture the Trump crime family as a monarchy and see how flawed a form of government it actually can be.
@Jesper Bernoe
I had this fantasy that when the Chumpster bowed to QEII, she’d give him a swift kick in the nuts, but alas, no dice.
@Jesper Bernoe
Ah yes, Denmark is a monarchy, not a republic, but it is a parliamentary constitutional monarchy - or in other words a democracy, with a monarch who is just a figurehead. Your comment is more misleading than Paul's mistake. Your country owes its stability to it being a democracy, not a monarchy. It could become a republic and nothing else would change. We have people in my country who think it would change - for the worse - if it became a republic, to my extreme embarrassment and frustration. At least your Queen is a Dane.
When will we in the U.S. celebrate the legitimacy of the common man?
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@Larry Dickman
They did early in WW II when, according to Wikipedia, Eugene Goossens, conductor of the Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra, commissioned a wartime fanfare from Aaron Copland. From the Wikipedia page:
“It was written in response to the US entry into World War II and was inspired in part by a famous 1942 speech where vice president Henry A. Wallace proclaimed the dawning of the "Century of the Common Man".”
... “[T]o Goossens' surprise ... Copland titled the piece Fanfare for the Common Man. Goossens wrote "Its title is as original as its music, and I think it is so telling that it deserves a special occasion for its performance. If it is agreeable to you, we will premiere it 12 March 1943 at income tax time". Copland's reply was "I [am] all for honoring the common man at income tax time".”
I think we’re used to a different arrangement today but for the first 15 seconds I prefer this from 1958. Do my amateur ears detect a hint of “Yankee Doodle” near the end? https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Nqt6xqDSKmo
@Jack
When I read your comment, I just had to follow up.
You mention Henry A. Wallace's speech. It is a very good speech, and if more people read it, perhaps America could indeed become "great again". Another good read would be "Second Bill of Rights". The foresight and insight of these two men is admirable.
My favorite quote from Wallaces speech :
"The demagogue is the curse of the modern world, and of all the demagogues, the worst are those financed by well-meaning wealthy men who sincerely believe that their wealth is likely to be safer if they can hire men with political "it" to change the sign posts and lure the people back into slavery of the most degraded kind."
At the time, it was of course directed at nazism, but its message can easily be translated into today's problems.
“Here’s what happened: for decades the right has tried to shout down any attempt to sand down some of the rough edges of capitalism, whether through health guarantees, income supports, or anything else, by yelling “socialism.” Sooner or later people were bound to say that if any attempt to make our system less harsh is socialism, well, they’re socialists.”
“The truth is that there are hardly any people in the U.S. who want the government to seize the means of production, or even the economy’s commanding heights. What they want is social democracy – the kinds of basic guarantees of health care, protection against poverty, etc., that almost every other advanced country provides.”
Hey lefties. In case you’re interested in being reasonably persistent and persistently reasonable I think Dr. Krugman has written some talking points for you.
Of course the base, D politicians, and the donors and campaign consultants would all have to get involved in communicating an honest, cogent political message that addresses everyday concerns. I’ll believe it’s happened when I hear it.
5
Speaking of socialism. As a Soviet /Russian citizen from 1959 to 1995, I can name three areas where the horrible USSR beats our greatest country in the world hands down:
1. Free and superior public education
2. Free medicine for all with doctors who are not in the business just for money
3. Actual separation of church and state
22
Seems to me that all the good doctors were sent to Siberia not so long ago. And the church and state are no longer separate, as you probably realize -- perhaps that's post 1995. Not sure about education. Free maybe, which is good. I had a friend who was the soviet TV engineering expert. He could not make ends meet on his university salary and had to scrape around making extra income wherever he could. (or maybe that's like Krugman?)
It is difficult for me to believe that any of this really matters when the electorate is so ignorant and easily misled. The tweeter in chief is not a particularly talented con man and yet he succeeds. The future is so dim that I have to wear night vision goggles.
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@runawayEnough people pay no attraction to elections until the last couple of weeks (at most) to decide the outcome. This was so with the 'discovered' duplicate Emails om Mr. Weiner's PC. Printing...? Many do not hey have 2 Senators or the Supreme Court has 9 Judges.
The Russia interference, bad as it is, is only a footnote to the Republican Party concerted attacks on 'one man one vote'.
What actually, conveniently, placed the e-mails on Mr. Wiener's PC? This question needs investigation; the answer is not obvious. Printing convenience??
Note: Mr. Trump has convinced us all that the now infamous Russian meeting produced no information of any value on Ms. Clinton... REALLY!
Dr K wrote "The truth is that there are hardly any people in the U.S. who want the government to seize the means of production, or even the economy’s commanding heights"
We, Europeans did NOT call this Socialism, not even Marxism but plain OLD and Rotten COMMUNISM, that is evil....
6
So riding a bike is better for your mental health than watching Fox News? I'm shocked. I think the level of political corruption is the largest difference maker between most successful economies and most unsuccessful ones. I know I'm over simplifying, but think a moment of the differences between Norway, owner of the worlds largest sovereign wealth fund, and Venezuela on the brink of collapse. Why did one country save and invest a good portion of the proceeds of its oil wealth and the other country not do that? Then we think about what factors lead to socially cohesive societies. Then go for another ride on your bike to clear your head.
13
Huh
1
Maybe in current conditions it's better to export Volvos and Husquvaarnas than butter?
And y is typically (tuppischlich) pronounced u in German, too.
3
@Green Tea
No, it isn't.
2
Do any journalists - of any political stripe - ever vacation in the deep south or the midwest or even the southwest? Why is it always Europe or the Hamptons? Steve Hayes is spending a year in Spain! Then they come back and write about America...
6
@maire
I know from personal experience that learning about other societies (countries and/or other distinctions) is a super way to understand your own country. So much of the crucial variables that are lost as background if you don't see different places come out in stark relief when you learn about others.
of course you have to dig, and think. The best is to live and work elsewhere for a while. If all you do is look for the nearest McDonalds and all you think about is whether it's better or worse than the one in Peoria -- on Manhattan -- then you won't learn much about home.
13
America has become too dangerous a destination.
1
@maire
Krugman is an academic, not a journalist. And do you have a list of every place he has vacationed? If so, you are extremely creepy.
1
American conservatives have always pushed the absurd notion that any form of socialism must lead to totalitarianism and completely misrepresent the considerable successes of social democracy such as Britain's NHS. This would be bad enough in itself, but even worse is how dogmatically blind they are to the pernicious effects of unrestrained capitalism. The Freedom Caucus, for example, wants to completely eliminate the social safety net, and pretends to act from high minded economic principles in inflicting punishment on the needy simply for being needy. Their version of capitalism is like a cruel game of musical chairs.
201
@Bob Chisholm Well said!
1
Maybe its the heat but this is a wonderful time for reflection.
I think about Denmark and Sweden a great deal and when in her lecture at the 2013 Aspen Ideas festival when she was still an economic journalist Chrystia Freeland our head of NAFTA negations talked about Denmark and Finland as the two nations best equipped to deal with the chaos the world's plutocrats were throwing at us.
I thought about what liberalism was and why it has such shock value for Americans.
I was brought up in English speaking Montreal's Protestant educational system. Our history and political foundation was built on the principle of the best system of government was enlightened benevolent dictatorship, Unenlightened, malevolent dictatorship was the worst system of governance and all the other systems that involved some type of real democracy were less than perfect but no worse (or as the Arrogant Worms might say less worse) than the worst. We were also taught that liberal democracy was the most balanced and the least dangerous because it did not let the search for the perfect get in the way of the perfectly good and it prevented the worst.
Being a liberal engenders the understanding that the complexity is too big and the risk of unintended consequences too high to not be able to change directions. Denmark will change government it will go both right and left to find a balance. Without a rebirth of liberalism America will perish.
13
Demark is a great example why democracy and socialism can only work in a homogeneous society. Clearly race is the elephant in the room. Socialism will not work in this country because of tribalism. It is in our DNA. We are the products of ethinic cleansing. If politicians and economists refuse to accept our nature, there is no hope. Using social welfare debate in this country as an example, tell me it is not mostly white vs. black. Many states and poor people take in tax payers' money but they can still think only black people are "takers". Because of this racial division, socialism can never work. It shouldn't take a rocket scientist to figure out.
I have realized that the great experiment of melting pot is a failure. The situation will only get worse because of the coming demographic change. What we are seeing is merely natural. The currently dominant tribe is gradually losing its status and it is fighting back for their dominance. Most ironically, we will be forced to take side. And I am not convinced that we will be better off if we switch side. To mother nature, this is merely another episode of natural selection. Back to Denmark, Denmark should really learn the lesson.
9
@JC
I think you are confused. Why do people in the US believe that black people are the "takers" and therefore resist programs that would help everyone?
Could it be because politicians and their donors have engaged in a systematic program to manipulate opinion?
It has nothing to do with natural selection and everything to do with winning elections and power.
Think about what happened after the fall of the USSR and the end of any threat from International Communism.
While Europe continued its social democracy, the US celebrated the triumph of capitalism. There was no need to redistribute wealth or income, which people here do dislike.
I suspect that there are people in Denmark who find immigrants hard to assimilate. One difference is that it's not so acceptable to broadcast those views. It's certainly not acceptable to allow those views to drive social policy.
I'm not sure what lesson Denmark should learn, but I think the USA should pause and contemplate where we're going. If all policies that can address and ameliorate inequality and declining opportunity are socialism, why would people not follow that path?
25
I don't think tribalism is in one tribes DNA and not in another's, and I don't think that Americans are any different from anyone else in their political inclinations. People know when the system isn't working and they strike out. Our system isn't working. They have fought back. Give the people respect.
4
If you think that Denmark or any other Western European nation is homogenous, your impression is woefully out of date.
All the Nordic countries, even Iceland, have noticeable immigrant populations.
Try to tell any Western European that his or her nation can have a strong social safety net because "they don't have any immigrants or racial minorities."
You will see said Western European laughing hysterically.
Dr. Krugman, I always read your articles, so of course it was particularly interesting to read your piece on my own country.
As for the pronunciation of Danish words not being in line with how they are written ("to an English speaker"), I think you are making that exact mistake, namely to expect that the two match what an English speaker would expect (and "why would we do that" ...). As for the astronomer's name, I think that is a bad example as the spelling of his last name would suggest roughly the same pronunciation in English as in Danish, so all you really have to learn is that the 'y' in his given name should be pronounced like the French 'u' or the German 'ü'. For those who don't know how that vowel sounds, please listen to Jacques Clouseau asking for a "rhym" (room). ;-)
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@Morten Bo Johansen
Does your dyg bite?
1
@Publicus, That is actually another vowel that some French find hard to pronounce ;). It is the open 'o' in English which somehow becomes an 'ø' as in "bleu" (blue).
The Danes are relatively prosperous because of free trade and globalism not in spite of it. Protectionism is the progressivism of fools, and is the greatest threat facing America.
The trade policy-related risks are particularly acute because of Trump's biggest falsehood, which is by far the most dangerous, because so many people who are vehemently opposed to Trump appear to have bought into it, is that the US has entered into terrible trade deals. The exact opposite is the truth. The US may not be No. 1 in everything, but we are definitely No. 1 in negotiators and lawyers.
If two foreign countries, say Brazil and Argentina, were in a trade-related dispute, both sides will hire American negotiators and lawyers. One tactic the US has used to get the upper hand in trade negotiations was to use American women to do the face-to-face negotiation. Many foreign cultures were unused to dealing with women at that level. This gave the US an additional advantage when negotiating the trade deals, that made America the world's largest and strongest economy.
Most distressing is that the leftist protectionists like Bernie Sanders were so quickly able to go from complaining that trade deals like NAFTA and the TPP were examples of corporate America exploiting the workers of the world, to agreeing with Trump's false assertion that the trade deals were one sided against American business interests..."
https://seekingalpha.com/article/4188416
7
@Lance Brofman,
Basically you're right but for one point: " Many foreign cultures were unused to dealing with women at that level."
**All** upper class men (most executives everywhere) are used to dealing with at least one woman "at" their "level", to wit:
Their mothers.
I've seen it in negotiations. They cringe.
1
Even in a butter republic, I will quote from Polonius, the famous economist, though not of words: “Neither a borrower or a lender be;/For loan oft loses both itself and friend, /and borrowing dulls the edge of husbandry.” True for the Danes and for us. Don’t let the butter melted in the heat there, but enjoy Elsinore.
7
Elsinore is called Helsingør in Danish. Helsingborg is a Swedish city across the water from Elsinore/Helsingør.
6
@LF after 4 or 5 submissions, I think I have it.
ingor Danish borg Swedish.
thanks all.
My experience with Danish was that if I pronounced a word using German, of which I had a little facility, it would often sound like an English word. The gist of newspaper headlines became intelligible using this bizarre practice.
7
There is no worker who benefits from not receiving adequate healthcare -- either because the healthcare system is so fragmented that there is no continuity between patient and providers, with insufficient documentation -- or because care is simply too expensive. The Trump family and their counterparts may not be appreciate these problems because they can afford (out of pocket or through high-end insurance coverage) whatever treatment they need, and whatever options (cosmetic surgery?) they want. It is not reassuring to imagine a bumbling government bureaucracy in charge of healthcare -- but the reality is that what the average person has to deal with at present is an assortment of different insurance companies and providers, each promoting their own business objective.
8
The good Dr. should pause longer at Elsinore (Helsingør). It’s a good place to develop notes on ghostly arguments.
Dr. Krugman likes to praise Europe’s smallest, most homogeneous states, wondering as he does to Col. Pickering why a giant can’t more like a midget. We should note that Denmark’s population is 5.7 million, nearly 90% of its population consists of people of Danish descent, and almost 90% of that population lives in cities. They simply are not comparable in any way to larger first-world nations – and certainly not comparable in any way to us. Similar things can be said of the other Scandinavian countries Dr. Krugman loves to throw in the face of us vastly more populous, diverse and less agréable societies, where opposed interests vie so much more contentiously.
He should let us know when he’s figured out a way for us to shed over 98% of our population, and make what remains almost universally white and of one religion. That remaining less-than-2% might be open to becoming democratic socialists as well, particularly if it can find some Daddy Warbucks to defend it from the Bear.
Me? I’d escape as soon as I could and head to the United Kingdom, France or Spain: like Hell is said to be, they tend to be populated with far more interesting sorts, although their societies may be messier as a consequence.
Trust Dr. Krugman is enjoying his (obviously working) vaca, but is not over-extending himself on that bicycle, which is not advisable for those advancing in age.
9
@Richard Luettgen
Then, too, not all Danes retire from the cities for weekends in the country, not that they head for southwest France, and spend them there. Egalitarianism has its complications.
2
@Disinterested Party
You're so … disinterested.
@Richard Luettgen
Hate to break this to you, Richard, but most people anywhere live in cities - that's why they are cities. So in Denmark it's 90%, and in the US of A it's 80%. Maybe the difference in our societies is largely to do with the US weighting its political power more by the acre than by the population.
20
Exactly right! After getting lost in the Netherlands on my bicycle because I couldn’t pronounce Gouda (which seems to be what my cat says while bringing up a hair ball) riding around in Germany is as easy as saying Supercalifragalis.....
Heading back to Hamburg soon. At least it sounds familiar.
6
If you want to add property taxes and sales tax into the picture, I presently pay 60 percent of my income in taxes for federal and Washington state. Yippee, I pay more than the people of Denmark! Aren't I lucky? I'd go to Denmark, but they won't take me. Too old.
45
Washington state has no income tax. Sales tax is quite high, but groceries are not taxed. Vehicle tabs have increased dramatically but a person only needs - how many vehicles? I can only surmise that you have a very nice house or houses so that your property tax is the main culprit. I do not believe that most Washingtonians share your tax burden.
8
I am sure you are calculating incorrectly. Use this formula: total taxes paid divided by total income earned. Adding Seattle’s 10.1% sales tax rate to your highest marginal income tax rate (37% is the highest bracket) is meaningless. Something is fishy.
3
Social insurance is nice, but trends in income distribution have people concerned enough that they are also thinking about measures that intervene in the distribution of income by large firms: minimum wages obviously, but in addition a range of other standards for treating employees, along with stronger standards for corporate governance to cut down on income skimming and asset stripping by wealthy employees and insider-investors.
Such measures ("predistribution"?) go beyond the welfare state ("social democracy") and begin to look like an impingement on capitalism (socialism).
1
@Joe Ryan: Impingement on capitalism is not socialism. It might be viewed saving capitalism from raving hordes of starving employees, as FDR did during the Great Depression.
18
The right screamed "Communist!" as the bugaboo to try to scare Americans until the Soviet Union fell so now it's lighted on "Socialism!" . Trouble is, as you note, Americans are waking up and realizing that income, opportunity, healthcare and education equality doesn't equal socialism.
Even someone as dense as Bill Kristol has spotted this and Tweeted about it earlier today by applauding women, minorities and young voters attempt to "save the Republic" while castigating white men over age 55 for not stepping up.
As Richey Brockelman would say, the thing of it is this: America has always - well, mostly - believed in equality. It hasn't always lived up to its credo and core belief, but when things get out of hand and drift too far in one direction like the way Pres. Trump and today's Republicans are intent on taking the nation, the country slowly stands up and says "Whoa!"
I believe the primary results we've seen this summer and spring reflect this. Even if they don't know the economic reasoning, people are starting to feel that America could use a bit of Denmark.
As an aside, astronomer Tycho Brahe (who was Latvian, not Danish) had a silver nose because his birth nose was bit off in a fight in his youth. And maybe because the language is unpronounceable, most people in Denmark also speak German and English.
19
@Charley James
Tycho Brahe was born in Knutstorp, Skåne, which was then part of the Danish monarchy, but became Swedish in 1645/60.
Under the protection of Danish king Frederick II he built his two astronomical observatories on the island of (H)ven in the Sound (a Danish part of the Baltic).
Later he went into the service of the German Emperor and died in Prague, where he is buried.
"Tycho" is the Latin form of Danish first name "Tyge", "Brahe" is an old Danish/Swedish noble family.
No connection to Latvia.
19
@Jesper Bernoe - Fascinating, thanlks for the update. When I was at university, the two astronomy courses I took were taught by a professor named Karlos Kaufmanis, a Latvian immigrant to the U.S. He claimed Brahe was Latvian and that's why I commented as I did. Thanks for straigtening me out.
3
@Charley James: Is it possible Danes speak German and English because in proper Danish pronunciation all sentences sound alike? Or is that an exaggeration?
1
"Why did they do this?"
They're mad at us, trying to get even, because we always misspell the name of Danmark.
3
@Jim Hansen
Judging from your name, Mr. Hansen, your ancestors must have left Denmark not so long ago.
The spelling "Denmark" with an "e" comes from the Old English name for the people of Denmark, which was "dene", and the country was called "Denemearc". The umlaut, as it's called in German, did not appear in the Danish forms of the names of the people or the country for reasons of specific Danish linguistic history.
8
@Jim Hansen
That's the Danish spelling. That would be like an American getting mad because in Danish the name of the U.S. is Amerikas Forenede Stater. If you are trying to be clever, I apologize. If you are serious, you are not making a good point at all.
Comparing an economy with 6 million citizens to one with over 300 million is ludicrous. Furthermore, Krugman has been extremely selective about his facts. Every Dane pays a significant amount of income tax at about 45% of annual income. The US is far more progressive with over half of all tax filers paying no income tax at all. They don’t get this high cost welfare state by soaking the rich, they soak everyone. When the readers find out that half of their income would go to taxes I am sure that they will think twice about the Danish model.
7
@Adam Smith
Why does the size of the nation matter? What elements does a larger population figure in? If anything, more variables can allow greater flexibility in the face of turbulence.
33
@Adam Smith I've heard this claim many times: that the size difference makes such a comparison worthless but I've never heard anyone even attempt to justify it. Wonder why that is.
Those US taxpayers who don't pay income tax quite likely do pay employment tax and if there're in a state with a sales tax they most certainly pay that. And, in fact, even renters do pay property tax because the landlord builds that into the rent.
So who's being selective about the facts?
How much of Americans' income goes for health care? Need to look at both sides of the ledger if you don't want to be selective about the facts.
90
@Adam Smith
What most Americans don't seem to understand is that in Denmark we all get healthcare, education on all levels, freeways, defense, police, courts, etc., paid for by the taxes. Not only do get a public sector that works without corruption - as opposed to the US - but we live in a peaceful, non-violent society - again as opposed to the US.
Taxes are not an expense, but an investment.
853
The Danes have been working on civilization for well over a millennium. So have the Swedes. In Lund Cathedral, Domkyrkan, there's a working clock that's been telling the time since before Columbus sailed the ocean blue. And BTW, Helsingborg is in Sweden, while Helsingør (Helsingör) is in Denmark. Maybe the shortest international ferry ride I'be taken--about 15 minutes.
25
@Des Johnson: Thank you from those of us who forgot the classic geography.
3
And Denmark produces over 57% percent of its electricity from renewable sources. It is a leading country in wind energy production. Denmark debt to GDP is about 37%.
How Northern European countries have been able to deal with globalization without outsourcing most of its production is a lesson that we should study and follow.
Here Republicans point out to Venezuela as example of socialism, and not to Denmark and Scandinavian countries.
446
@J. Parula
- because Republicans are as ignorant of the wider world as they are unwilling to change into living in the 21st century.
49
@J. Parula - Well said but you introduce a subject the NYT will not touch and I do not know why. I have written 100s of comments in which I somewhere plead with Editors to present information on renewable energy systems in the Nordic countries.
They had a chance to start when the West Palm Beach solid-waste incinerator went on line. It was designed by Babcock & Wilcox, the Danish company responsible for design and construction of the world's most advanced systems, one of them - the most advanced so far - right here 4 km from my home.
The Times reporting on West Palm Beach was minimal. West Palm Beach had finally had to admit it no longer could use standard American landfill practice and by some miracle chose to contract B & W.
Only-NeverInSweden.blogspot.com
Pictures of those systems at the blog
Citizen US SE
6
@J. Parula In my experience Danes do not identify as socialist, but it's rather Americans, who lack an understanding of what socialism actually is, that apply the label to them. Danes consider their economy to be market-driven (because it is), but with generous services and social protections (eg. education, infrastructure, health care, unemployment benefits, etc.) funded by taxation. The US functions in the same way, just to a lesser degree; for example, the US provides free public education until age 18, while in Denmark it's free for life.
2
It is a strange thing this idea in the US that the slightly taxed mass accumulation of wealth by few is a good thing. Equally strange is the concept that we can't afford to spend money on infrastructure. It is almost like we believe that the biggest economy in the world is broke. In a sense, it is broken. It is only in the setting of "the Federal government is bad", "taxes are bad", can you understand how we have gotten to where we are. Yes, it is difficult not to consider oneself a socialist, when you think that wealth has to be broken up over time, and believe that the wealthy are not doing things for this countries benefit. They are actually doing more harm than good.
481
cut to the chase: America suffers from an advanced case of selfishness. it has been growing steadily,rapidly worse since Reagan. most likely to be afflicted are those who know in their secret hearts they are getting away with more than they deserve, yet can't give up the sugar high because they know they're actually better than you. there are many examples of this, but Paul Manafort and Donald Trump (and seemingly his family) are glaring examples currently in the news.
PS, Copenhagen to Helsigor is a long bike ride, but luckily there are many friendly bars with good food there, especially the pirate themed one.
12
@smcmillan Unfortunately, you read too much into a Conservative’s analysis comparing Denmark and the US. The Conservative simply doesn’t care about notions of content and quality of life for the most people.
14
@smcmillan Just look at the mess in Colorado. The state annot raise funds to fix or improve roads, so we sell out to the highest bidder behind closed doors and wonder who got paid? (E.g. US-36 debacle.) And don't get me starting with the fracking mess.
When I moved to CO 6 years ago, I was not expecting fracking in neighborhoods and smog so bad you cannot see the Rocky Mountains coupled with air quality warnings advising people to not exercise outdoors.
11
It is all just history, I think. The seeds of the United States current problems were planted in the 1950s, when life was too easy for Americans.
I’d guess that the seeds of better days are being planted, today, in the United States. But when those days will come, I don’t know.
Not soon, I think.
The place to be for now, it is Europe. Denmark is the shining example, but things are less bad in the rest of Europe than most Americans would like to believe.
176
@David Martin, I tell all of the American youngsters I know and meet to go to Europe for a better life experience.
4
Dr. K., we're always interested in ' enlightened elites ' stories, reminding when there were such industrialists in the U.S. past - though certainly not perfect by any means - who knew that by denying themselves all they could possibly rake off the table at the Capitalist Casino, that our country, society, and economy benefited, which redounded to the industrialists' overall benefit and the long-term wealth/strength of the nation (real nationalism ?).
It's been a good time to re-read David Rothkopf's "Superclass", warning when the interests of the Davos Crowd diverge from the interests of democratic nations, as well as ponder the musings of Robert Frank re: Richistan.
So, we're still reigned over by Vulture$:
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/03/business/donor-advised-funds-tech-tax...
who pretend they're building when liquidating everything down to the nth degree and stashing proceeds offshore; Manafort's trial pulling back a curtain on some of these money machinations scares them.
Now, their embarrassing avatar - Pres. Very Stable Genius 45* - sits in the White House, and since they have tax cuts/judges, he's inconvenient; but he'll want greenmail (of some sort) to exit, instead of completing his destruction of their beloved GOP'er brand by campaigning/ranting/Tweeting 6-7 days a week until November.
btw - The NRA warns they are in financial trouble, so thoughts and prayers :(
69
@R. Law - First off, when I read last week that the NRA is having financial problems, all I could think of was it could not happen to a more deserving outfit.
Matt Taibbi had it right years ago when he dubbed Wall Street, big banks and the Davos crowd "vampire squids."
Both Bill Clinton and Barack Obama raised taxes on the richistan bunch yet the economy not only recovered from recessions but did extremely well. Along come Republicans to cut taxes and deprive millions of their health insurance and the economy gets bumpy and uncertain. How come?
106
economically, two of the most unlikely things you could imagine:
1) going bankrupt in the gambling casino business
b) the NRA in financial trouble after contributing tens of millions to political campaigns and receiving possibly hundreds of millions in contributions from offshore sources
common thread? money laundering.
but don't take my guess for it. ask Deutchesbank and Putin.
21
@Charley - Yep, too bad Pres. 45* couldn't remember his own sage observation to Wolfe Blitzer of 3/21/2004:
" It just seems that the economy does better under the Democrats than the Republicans. Now, it shouldn't be that way. But if you go back, I mean it just seems that the economy does better under the Democrats. "
https://www.cnn.com/2015/07/21/politics/donald-trump-election-democrat/i...
Have always loved the Matt Taibbi quote; it's not just GS, it's an entire class of elites drunk on the 'Greed is good' catechism which so conveniently fits their ethos of harvesting disguised as building.
16
Thank you for this, PK.
I think what unfettered - or, hyper - capitalism is is something merely temporal, fleeting. In the long run, it doesn’t exist. Ultimately, it devolves into communism or fascism, or is elevated vis-a-vis an educated citizenry and enlightened elite into a sustainable mixed economy of socialist and capitalist tenets.
I’m afraid PK has, over the years, poo-poohed the importance of Education. Perhaps other things have been more important - starting with buoying aggregate demand and compensating for timid private investment post-crisis. Fair enough. But if not immediately then by way of political instability does Education end up having transformative effect on the economy.
Why do places like Denmark, or Israel for that matter, punch above their weight? In large part, Enlightened leaders, but more seminal an educated populace able to (usually) differentiate good ideas from bad.
40
Polls show that at least half of US millennials favor socialism. They're not only seeking public office and winning, they're playing to SRO crowds far beyond their districts. Alexandria Ocasio Cortez packed them in in San Francisco, completely bypassing the usual Democratic fundraising circuit in Hollywood and Silicon Valley.
So when you Google "millennials socialism" what a shock that results are mostly negative. The top hit I got was "Victims of Communism.Org" which warns young socialists that if they won't shut up, we'll be back in Stalin's USSR.
The tiny-print link to this site's leadership roster reveals it's a front for the arch-conservative Heritage Foundation, with a board of directors chock-full of aging Republicans and retired Pentagon officials. Hmm.
Google itself has lately started purging left-learning news organizations, such as the World Socialist Website, from its search engine results. Hmm again.
So while it'd likely that Trump is in cahoots with Russian oligarchs, this whole RussiaGate initiative also serves the right-wing/centrist agenda of propagandizing against socialism. Facebook recently purged an announcement for an anti-ICE rally because it couldn't verify its "authenticity" - could be just another Putin ploy to "sow divisions" in the US populace, who otherwise would be perfectly OK living in poverty and ignorance in the de facto oligarchy and carceral state which the corporate media-political complex still quaintly insists is a democracy.
245
@Karen Garcia
This is what we will keep getting for as long as we continue to accept the notion that money is an indicator of knowledge and wisdom and we continue to defer to moneyed interests to make decisions on our behalf.
On the other side of those socialist millennials, there is a whole slew of billionaires who are running for high office, along with newly-departed Republicans masquerading as newly-minted Democrats.
Voters need to learn to research their candidates and not rely on the fact that their local branch of the party or the DSCC and DCCC support them. Go out, meet candidates in your primaries. Look them up. You'd be surprised in some cases who these people really are.
Meet Shri Tanedar of Michigan. https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/shri-thanedar-democrat-egomaniac-mi...
28
@Karen Garcia: “...this whole RussiaGate initiative also serves the right-wing/centrist agenda of propagandizing against socialism.”
Really? You equate criticizing Vladimir Putin with “propagandizing against socialism,” as if we’re in the midst of a Cold War and it’s our ideology against the USSR’s? Look at what the guy has done over the past decade. The killing of journalists and political opponents is just so much propaganda? Please.
5
@NA
Read carefully: nowhere in my comment did I equate criticism of Putin with the anti-socialism messaging going around. Nowhere did I assert that criticism of Putin is "propaganda." My point is that this is a "two for the price of one" thing. The usual suspects are bashing TrumpPutin and leftism at the same time, simply because of the Russia connection. That's why I mentioned the victims of communism scare-mongering website, which is aimed directly at millennial Democratic Socialists.
And speaking of the killing of political opponents, I strongly suggest you read up on the inglorious history the CIA. The best book, in my view, is "Legacy of Ashes" by Tim Weiner.
Does NA stand for Not Applicable, or is just deliberately Not Aware?
Dear Dr. Krugman:
I enjoyed your thoughts regarding Denmark. However, I have many cousins in Sweden and have traveled the route from Copenhagen to Halsingør several times, always in the Summer.
The city across the strait is in Sweden, and is known as Halsingborg. The "g" is pronounced as a very soft "g" almost as
an "eh" or perhaps a "y". A small point, I know, but one that stands out for a Swede, as it must3 for a Dane.
3
@HammArch1: What was it called before, long after Hamlet's time, Sweden grabbed it from Denmark?
Hamlet most likely never existed. The play was perhaps inspired by a legend of Amlet a prince mentioned in the chronicler Saxo Grammaticus "gesta danorum" from about 1200. Saxo is generally known to have used a method known as "argumentum ex ano"
2
@Thomas Zaslavsky
The "Hals" or "neck" is the name of the narrow strait between Denmark and Sweden. With "umlaut" (the change of "a" to "e" in Danish or "ä" in Swedish is due to the "i" in the following syllable) original "Halsing-ør" becomes "Helsingør", and "Halsing"+"borg" (castle) becomes "Helsingborg" in Danish and "Hälsingborg" in Swedish.
"Halsing" probably "inhabitant of the Hals area".
Your ability to create charts and graphs while on vacation - and cycling no less - is remarkable.
The lessons of Denmark seem more suitable to a September column than August. My generally vacation-attuned and slower pace of mind and work couldn’t quite grasp it all.
Will re-read after Labor Day.
5
Spoke with my in-laws last night following their return from Copenhagen days ago. Their walk around experiences/ conversations/ observations could easily have been incorporated into this opinion piece as supporting evidence.
120
I was in the Soviet Union at the end of the 1980s, as the whole structure was collapsing. I was in Denmark last year. Both regimes self-describe(d) as "socialist". When the same word describes such utterly different experiences and degrees of success in governance and economic policy, that word must be regarded as utterly meaningless.
373
@veeckasinwreck
One might note in passing that whereas "liberal" in the US means slightly "left-wing", in Denmark (and in Europe in general) a "liberal" is the opposite of "left-wing". The Danish government, which is far from socialist, is led byt "Venstre, Danmarks Liberale Parti", in English: "The Left, the Liberal Party of Denmark". If you find it odd, it's no wonder.
8
@veeckasinwreck: But it is not utterly meaningless. It has enough meaning to terrify our governing elite of right-wing capitalists.
7
@veeckasinwreck In my experience Danes do not identify as socialist, but it's rather Americans, who lack an understanding of what socialism actually is, that apply the label to them. Danes consider their economy to be market-driven (because it is), but with generous services and social protections (eg. education, infrastructure, health care, unemployment benefits, etc.) funded by taxation. The US functions in the same way, just to a lesser degree; for example, the US provides free public education until age 18, while in Denmark it's free for life.
6
"The non-horrors of “socialism”
A number of people on the U.S. right, and some self-proclaimed centrists, seem totally taken aback by the rise of politicians who call themselves socialist. But this rise was predictable and predicted."
We could easily have had Denmark and more had special interests not always had a hold on our politics, our education, and our media, to at least some degree. As a result, we've had a population that, to at least some degree, is so easily influenced by propaganda that it takes extreme events like this Trump election and one completely corrupt party to swing everyone back in the other direction.
This cycle will break only if, by some fluke, the next swing of the pendulum includes a thorough rethinking and rewriting of our operations manual.
Meanwhile, let us focus on what's important and filter out the noise. A butter republic! What a dream!
---
Things Trump Did While You Weren’t Looking | Greed & Malfeasance Never Sleep
https://www.rimaregas.com/2018/01/07/blog42s-running-list-of-what-trump-...
68
Rima -- Trumpist Sharon here. The butter republic isn't a dream. All you have to do is pack up, renounce your American citizenship and move to Denmark. I bet Queen Margrethe II is a kind, generous lady.
Trumpist Sharon signing off.
@sharon5101
"I love America more than any other country in this world, and, exactly for this reason, I insist on the right to criticize her perpetually."
James Baldwin
@Rima Regas--But Rima-- James Baldwin left the America because he felt uncomfortable with the homophobia and racism that were woven into the fabric of American life. Baldwin died an expatriate in France in 1987.