Here's hoping that enough Americans, especially many conservatives who've helped these Creeps attain office, will help to remove them in the next elections.
I know of several self identified conservatives who have been experiencing voter's remorse, but they are few, isolated, and in fear of being chastised and ostracized by the nouveau empowered neo-cons and miscreants.
There are many more, and they are in the majority, who have become more entrenched, cult like, and vociferous in their ideological outlook. These people will probably only change their minds for the worse, and they have plenty of company.
Here's hoping reasonableness will triumph over ignorance, and the democratic process will work in that favor.
46
Yes, I'm sure ... but I'm even more sure that Pence is going down before Trump does. If anyone, other than Trump, is more apt to toss someone under a bus to save himself, it's Pence ... and Mueller is more than willing to let him.
55
You are completely wrong Frank. If Pence were to be a President ant tried to enact his version of irrational thinking and religious twisted conviction there will be a revolution.
He will not dare. So get rid of Trump first. We can even impeach Pence later. There is always the first time where two presidents in succeson are impeached.
54
We would need more than Heaven helping us if Pence ends up in the White House. However, I do not think that will happen.
I believe that Pence lied when he claimed that Mike Flynn did not tell him about his meeting with the Russians. Pence was on the Transition team helping to set up the White House for Trump's reign. And I believe that will come out in Mueller's report. I also believe that he has lied so much at this point, maybe even conspired to make sure that there was a cover up of campaign
money and where it came from, like the Trump Foundation and other illegal entities.
I agree with the authors of this book that Pence is dangerous, not to mention a snake in the Garden of Eden.
68
One bad actor at a time, please. They all have to go.
83
People seem to give credence to Evangelicals when they say they are Christians, but nothing could be further from the truth.
To begin with, Evangelicals believe that everyone who is not a' born again' Christian like themselves, is not a Christian at all.
Further, the Evangelicals come with a political agenda that boldly states that the US is a Christian nation, and in stating this, they are only half right.
The United States is an Episcopalian secular humanist nation. The majority of the Founding fathers were Episcopalian, 54%, followed by Unitarians and Presbyterians.
Evangelicals, Fundamentalists, and Mormons were nowhere to be found among the founding fathers. Couldn't be bothered, maybe.
The Episcopalians from the outset were a curious group, Christian, but familiar with the religious wars that had devastated Europe in the previous century. The critical consequence was that they wrote a Constitution that plays no favorites in religious belief.
Now, evangelicals are an interesting group; they cannot work in most of the sciences, because they don't believe in science. Forget getting a Nobel prize, they don't believe in education that is not indoctrination.
Small Town clowns like Pence and Pruitt are so besotted with their group think indoctrination that they actually believe they are Christians.
They are are barely American, and clearly not Christian.
130
Unlike president Trump, Mike Pence, who lacks charisma doesn't have a loyal following. He would be a light wt. candidate for 2020. A Democrat's chance of winning presidency in 2020 would be far, far easier with Pence in the mix.
61
George Will had it right when he referred to Mr. Pence as "unctuous" . He looks at Trump adoringly during joint conferences, with a steady, calculating gaze, a gaze that seems to say, "If I bid my time, I'll be in your position". As a Congressman he was, at best, mediocre; as a governor, he left a lot to be desired (the debacle of the Religious Freedom Restoration Act put his name on the map). A wolf in sheep's clothes; a man with an insidious, pernicious agenda (Pence's fingerprints are all over DeVos' appointment...often wondered why the Sec of Ed was the first Cabinet position to be announced, a position not as influential as Treasury, State or Commerce (one of the Cabinet positions Reps would like to abolish)). “The evil you know is better than the evil you don't.” (Amy Bartol). I take Trump with all his shortcomings and deficiencies any day over Pence.
28
It so many ways, it is essential to get rid of Trump...even if it means accepting Pence. Tolerating Trump is like tolerating the breaking of America. Like watching a cruel child pull the head and limbs off a doll (before regretfully (?) realizing that they can't be reattached), Trump is pulling apart the nation simply to deliver policy changes to the GOP that they could not achieve through more democratic means because they lacked the votes (and still do).
The disquiet, animus and wrecked democratic institutions that Trump will leave behind are a far worse than the reversible theocratic (messianic Conservative) mess Pence could create. While Pence is, in his own way, un-American (if not anti-American), Trump is "pro," something far worse.
15
I am hopeful that the number of women running for the first time will make a difference. The ones I have seen seem smart and correctly note the problems we have.
It will not be corrected overnight, but I think the terrible people we elected last time is a wake up call the the American people.
30
I don't think Pence wants to be a dictator like Trump does. I doubt the Russians have anything on him. I'm so tired of Trump's tweets. While I don't like Pence's views, at least he's consistent.
But the main reason I would prefer for Trump to be impeached and have Pence a president, is I don't think he could be easily re-elected. He's bland, and I think a good Democrat could beat him.
26
A friend once said that Pence's faith teaches that you’re under authority at all times. Christ is under God’s authority, man is under Christ’s authority, a wife is under the authority of her husband, children are under their parents’ authority, and employees are under their employers' authority. Does that include an authoritarian, immoral employer devoid of any of Christ's teachings? Seems to be so for Pence.
29
I have been making this argument to every "Never Trumper" I meet since day 1: Trump is terrible, but Pence would be worse.
21
Appears that Pence is not one of those Christians that would ask: What would Jesus do?
But rather, he'd ask:
Who would Jesus hate the most?
36
Let's deal with one horrible leader at a time. Trump is the problem now -- and, Pence or no Pence, he's indisputably a threat to the Republic. Impeach him now. If Pence becomes President? The Resistance will cross that bridge when we come to it.
18
These are excellent points to bring up now and to build up the case of Mike Pence’s opaque past.
He isn’t the same as his running mate, the “Loud-Mouth Lime” president that says whatever is in his frontal lobe, but he is full of the same dangerous political cyclamates.
He is more like an opiate for the ‘pain of tRump’ and to dull the senses with a tamer and a boring exterior. He sports a wallpaper camouflage suit so as to not draw attention to his own movements and views.
He needs to be studied extensively so that when 45 takes a fall and maybe gets a pardon from Pence, everyone will already be up to speed on his successor...!
8
Because Mr Trump has trashed cherished international relations, been openly bigoted toward nearly any demographic group except white Judeo-Christian Republicans, on a headlong course to ruin the natural environment, lied to the American public repeatedly, cannot keep federal appointed positions filled, he must be removed. I do not know how this can occur apart from a blue takeover of Congress this coming November (an outcome of which is still far from clear).
If Mr Pence takes over in the saddle, so be it. If he is found to be impeachable, then let his removal happen too. And on and on. The country comes first.
14
I suppose I hope, with perhaps magical thinking, that Mueller has the goods on Pence, causing him to resign like Agnew. We could see an improvement in the VP department before the hammer falls on Trump.
But in all likelihood, we’re just choosing how to euthanize what was once a great nation.
14
Yes, I'm sure I want to get rid of Donald Trump. And Mike Pence. And Mitch McConnell. And Paul Ryan.
69
Trump is worse than Pence.
Pence does not have this unbelievable group of supporters as Trump does who are with him no matter what.
26
Pence is clothed in righteousness....which can be very dangerous. However, please remember that if and I say if, the Donald tumbles, he is going to take down the GOP, especially those that are defending him in Russiagate. They and Pence will be neutered. Just saying.
27
I wish I could say-Oh God and be heard.
11
one step at a time
12
Yes, I am sure I want trump out of office. Pence, as awful as he is, isn't trump. As awful as he is, he is (relatively) up front about who and what he is. trump is a weird monster. Pence is just weird and monstrous in his beliefs, but he does have beliefs which include not thinking he is G-d. trump thinks, weirdly and frighteningly, that he is above both social and moral law.
16
All you need to know about Mike Pence:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R22wRUHFi7w
2
So if Mueller comes up clear evidence of criminal and/or impeachable offenses - let's say solid evidence of treasonous collusion with Putin (just for the sake of argument), or clear evidence of financial crimes and corruption, are you saying we should NOT impeach him because Pence is an Ayatollah-wannabe? That you are that uncertain of our institutions' ability to uphold the First Amendment separation of church and state that we should give criminal and treasonous conduct a pass????? Sorry! I still don't buy it!
7
Short version: Frank Bruni prefers Novichok to strychnine.
9
I've been watching the first season of The Handmaid's Tale. The general premise if I got it right is that reproduction has been reduced to unemotional fornication for the purpose of propagating a race of subservient offspring that have little purpose other purpose. They mouth "Blessed Day" and "God be praised" while they commit blasphemy. The Evangelicalism that I interpret today without the violence of the film leaves no room for opposing opinions or thoughts, all punished by exclusion or worse. VP Pence's interpretation of Christianity, may be a comfort to him but excludes all other modern interpretations of the standard meaning if that really exists. As a white older person, who has chosen a non religious path, I am not worried that hell or heaven awaits me. I am more concerned with man's inhumanity toward man than I am of eternal damnation.
We are a country of generally moderate people, who hope to live our lives in relative peace and moderate recognition of those who do not fit into a fixed belief. Being a free thinker may be to our individual peril, but please do not tell me that I must follow your script. The final reading may come after we leave this plane of existence. I don't question VP Pence's dedication to his belief, but he must not legislate those unproven beliefs to me or anyone not willing to ask questions. Many of our founding fathers left England and France to escape from dogmatic answers. Unitarianism seems to fit my needs at the moment.
24
My dream scenario: Trump dodges impeachment, but spends the rest of his term in emotional agony and political constipation as the Dems win the House and his minions, including family members, bite the dust. He claims victory and leaves the nomination to Pence, who looks like the fool that he is when Elizabeth Warren kicks his butt.
15
The irony of Mike Pence is that his version of Christianity starts to look a lot like Sharia Law.
50
Pence does not yet represent the majority mind-set of our country (May God be praised for that!) and will easily be boxed-in by a Democratic House and Senate (O Lord, hear our prayers!). The point is: what will happen to our Republic if Trump is NOT impeached? If he gets away with having colluded with a foreign power, laundered money, sneered at laws, repressed our free media, etc., etc.? We will quite simply no longer HAVE a republic -- ruled by laws, with freedom and justice for all, accountability, a free press... So it is really imperative that Trump be forced out of office. Pence can't even get re-elected in Indiana! He does not have Trump's Mussolini-like hold on the "base".
16
"Heaven help us."
... please, please!, do also rely on
ALL the earthly helpers you can get!
[they are needed in high numbers.]
10
Yes. I see him, standing in the background like wallpaper, during any one of Trump's innocuous speeches, looking smug, with that 'Cheshire Cat' grin beneath those those thin, anemic lips...waiting.
19
Mr Bruni obviously abhors Evangelical Christians like Pence because they apparently don't conform to his view of appropriate civil rights and uses the NYT to express his contempt for millions of Americans. This is a principal reason for the common lack of discourse as this pronouncement from "secular on high" which is directed with contempt is not a basis for dialog with anyone but one's own "navel."
6
Steve- Bruni’s article says nothing about Christianity. But, it does comment on the ersatz brand of religion of whatever it is Pence adheres too which, judging by his behavior, includes hypocrisy, lying and obsequiousness to a serial lying, sexual assaulter, money launderer, who is is boss. If this is your view of Christianity, you may want to do a lot more studying to get a lot more familiar with the subject. Meanwhile thanks for the object lesson in the use of the red herring fallacy.
31
Evangelical Phony Christians jumping on the Trump train to hell have shown us their true colors - bigotry, racism, philandering, hypocrisy and hatred. Those voting for Trump in the name of Christ do not know anything of either man.
24
Even after reading this article, I prefer Pence to Trump. Simply because I think Pence is less mentally unhinged and is less likely to launch a nuclear war than Trump.
9
Amen, brother. I have been saying this since the election. Trump is an ineffective buffoon, bouncing from one opinion and strategy to another opinion or strategy. Impeaching him would be a disaster for Democrats and minorities. Pence would be much more effective, hiding his racist xenophobic policies under a veneer of libertarian-ism. Democrats should continue to expose Trump as a racist idiot, but keep him as POTUS until 2020.
20
Then by all means, impeach President Trump. President Mike Pence sounds pretty good.
1
If God were to play one of his old "God Works in Mysterious Ways" tricks and Pence and his VP went on to a "Better Place", the Speaker of the House would be the next in line... assorted nut choices left on the bin, retiring Paul Ryan, or wanna be Speakers of the House Kevin McCarthy, Jim Jordan or perhaps, perhaps, the next Speaker of the House will be a Democrat...Voila!, Checkmate.
4
How about we put all organized religion peacefully to sleep. It is humanity's greatest enemy, the ultimate weapon of mass destruction. And that includes mine and yours.
41
@Neal. Good point Neal except it's always yours that's the evil force. Mine is perfect because "HE" told me so.
4
Nobody would listen to that little wimp. Even the deplorable‘s wouldnt support him. He would lose his own state if he ran. Impeach Trump! Trump wears the Pence in this it administration. This advice ain’t worth two pence.
10
Pence also knows where the Russian "bodies are buried."
Hope Ryan is out of office when Pence is also impeached.
Then I will be happy to not have to look at Mr P's smirk anymore.
When that canary gets out of his mouth it will be all over for him,
and thankfully fo us!
9
Trump verges on stupid. Pence is coy and sly, and intelligent. Much more dangerous than Trump, indeed. The best option we have is to vote the GOP out in 2020.
22
If Trump resigns or is impeached Pence will come to the presidency with no mandate, and a fractious and divided congress, possibly one with a majority of Democrats.
Pence is much dumber with a lot less political power than Gerald Ford, but he'd end up in Ford's position.
He'll get no chance to advance his religious nonsense.
10
As a practicing Christian, I find Mike Pence to be an abomination.
I am tired of having my faith linked in the popular culture to these reptiles.
My Christ did not come for me, he came for everyone. He is not my personal saviour, he belongs to the world. God cannot be up there guiding from heaven, the laws of geology and astro- physics preclude a heaven above and a hell below.
There was no fall from grace, the truth of evolution has rewritten the human story.
Feed the hungry, visit the sick, protect the prisoner, clothe the poor. You ARE your brother's keeper.
God is in us
50
Religion is one of the big elephants in the room that enables these clowns. No one seems to want to say out loud that it is all a bunch of nonsense that has no place in the 21st century, but by pretending that it is not the biggest scam in the history of the human race, we allow policy to be guided by primitive magical thinking rather than logic and compassion.
22
I dont think the Pence is worse argument is an argument at all. It certainly isn't a sign of some weird pragmatism in this moment. They are both terrible and they both need to go- one at a time. Pence's religious fanaticism is so obvious, that he needs the Donald to not be seen as the craven, dimwitted, homophobic, misogynist, racist zealot he is. In the chair, there will be no one to deflect from his ignorance and religious agenda. He wouldn't last long either.
10
The unsolvable problem for me is if trump is tossed due to conspiring with Russia in the election, thus tainting the result, how can Pence ascend to the Presidency? Is his election also not illegitimate?
If not, getting rid of trump prior to 2020 is a Pyrrhic victory of the saddest proportions.
Let's make sure the speaker of the House come January is a Democrat.
8
Pence is nowhere near as dangerous as Trump. Pence is unpopular- he was a singularly unpopular Governor even for conservative Indiana, and would not have been re-elected if he had run again.
Unlike Trump, Pence does not have a devoted base of followers. If Trump were to leave office before the end of his term in 2020 and Pence became President, the Republicans in Congress would not be afraid to stand up to him and oppose a wildly theocratic agenda.
8
I believe Pence started life as a Catholic and a Democrat. He attended Hanover College and became an evangelical born again Christian who also claimed to follow the "common sense conservatism" of Ronald Reagan. There is absolutely no common sense in Pence's ideas or beliefs. And even his religious beliefs are way out there.
And let's not forget this: Paul Manafort picked Pence. He stopped Trump from flying to NJ to speak with Christie. Is Pence complicit with the Russian scandal surrounding the Trump Administration?
I agree with the author, let's keep Trump and defeat him in 2020. Pence is a very dangerous man and should not be allowed to occupy the White House.
19
This assessment of Mike Pence is not new. Do you remember when he told The Hill that he never eats alone with a woman other than his wife and that he wont attend events with alcohol without her by his side. He has very in cement views that he doesn't veer from. He is acting the role of Vice President and it is important to see that no matter what you think or say about Trump he can be movable. That is something to think about.,
3
My guess would be that given the deliberate pace of the Mueller inquiry Trump will be in office until early 2019. That means that Pence will have only a year and a half before the 2020 election. He will need to be in full campaign mode to overcome the residual toxicity left by Trump. He won't have time to govern and since he doesn't have the power to excite the masses the way Trump does would be easier for the Democrats to defeat. Thus my preference would still be to get rid of Trump.
7
pence is likely to be guilty of most of the charges related to the campaign -- the money laundering ones are separate
don't fear him, get rid of him
9
Sorry Mr. Pence, but the first amendment to the US Constitution is very clear on the point of the country becoming officially a Christian nation. “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;” I doubt even the packed Supreme Court would fail to defend this principle of our founders.
8
Voters can solve this problem unless they think they will outlive it.
2
While a scary picture is painted of Pence, he has neither the charisma, power, nor energy of Trump. He would not be blindly followed by a broad base as Trump is. Furthermore, there is supposed to be separation of religion from government and I believe this could be used to impeach Pence once he would start trying to impose his 'religious' beliefs on governing. And, he would probably not have the same following within the Republican party as Trump does. Also, if Dems take the House in November and Trump has to go, Pence wouldn't have the congressional backing Trump does.
So yes, he's a despicable character, but no, wouldn't yield the power that Trump does. So let's not use him as a reason to keep Trump in power with all the damage he has yet to do to our country!
7
Is there any law or convention where there couldn't be two consecutive impeachments during the same presidential term? Have faith America.
7
Mr. Trump is an entertainer who knows how to push buttons and which ones to push. Mr. Pence seems to have none of Trump's feral cunning or taste for insult and blood. As such he would be a far worse campaigner and easier to defeat. While he would certainly retain the portion of the Trump electorate that is comprised of Christian conservatives, I think that a well run Democratic campaign (hopefully that is not oxymoronic) could succeed in making his shortcomings obvious to enough voters that they would reject his policies and his candidacy.
8
I recall a Times article where Pence was quoted as saying "I'm a Christian first, then a conservative then a republican". Substitute any other denomination, and tell me it will see the light of day in a campaign.
6
I don’t think Pence would be the same degree of global disaster and menace that Trump is. As long as he can torment gays and women at home he would probably not warmonger with our allies and tear up global trade. He’d also probably not put dehumanizing immigrants front and center.
I’d unfortunately make that trade. There are no good choices, only bad and less bad. Said as an atheist and former single issue abortion rights voter.
4
I find both of them a threat to democracy. As much as I think it is likely that Trump has threatened the nation and likely deserves removal, I believe that it is his removal through VOTING that is our nation's best hope....
8
Mike Pence was appointed at the behest of Paul Manafort, ie probably at the behest of Putin. There is significant doubt as to the probity of his campaign finances, with allegedly a significant portion coming from 'unreliable' sources. This is in addition to his revised opinion of his contacts with Russians during the transition. There are sufficient doubts about him, that there is no way he can be appointed President when Trump is removed from office. This is on top of his racist, bigoted approach to the law, will disbar him from anything bar demotion or jail.
3
Remember not six weeks into Trump’s regime, he had a love fest for his Cabinet. That is, all his Cabinet members had to sit around a ginormous table and, one at a time, sing Trump’s praises and express their enduring gratitude and fealty to Father Cheetos.
Pence, you may recall, started the ball rolling with a most obsequious, groveling and thoroughly disgusting paens of praise that surely must have had the others waiting their turn writhing with anxiety; how can I top that embarrassing lizard?
It had all the sincerity of one of those horrible POW confessions pounded out of them by brutal captors. Except Pence’s egregious performance was apparently spoken from the heart, or some cavity within his body. Trump, looking all Mussolini-like, lapped it up, but then quickly turned to the next empty suit at the table, leaving Pence to swim in the blood of his self-degradation.
Truly one of the lowest moments in American political history.
23
Pence was not truthful during the entire Michael Flynn ‘lied to me’ episode. If Trump goes down, hopefully Pence won’t be far behind. Ryan anyone?
4
Article II, Section 4 of the Constitution: The President, Vice President and all civil Officers of the United States, shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors. Trump is guilty--Pence is guilty. The whole GOP is guilty of this one. They all took Russian money through the NRA. Ignoring it is dangerous to our democracy. You might be a conservative, and you certainly have that right, but you don't have the right to ignore your responsibility to our Constitution (which the GOP Congress is doing) by allowing an unfit, treasonous president to remain in office, and I say this to all the conservatives out there who support Trump (and Pence) because of their stand on immigration. Immigration is not our pressing problem. That would be climate change, which the GOP administration is doing its best to ignore even as the West Coast is on fire and the East Coast is drowning. That's what's truly criminal about this administration.
8
Pence, like Ted Cruz, is a true believer. In the fight for Trump’s removal beware. Remember, Trump, at his core, until he ran for President, was in many eyes, a NY liberal. Loudly pro choice until sometime after 2010. He also has a daughter and son in law close by who are known to have more liberal leanings. Nothing similar for the current VP.
4
Frank is repeating an old argument that for practical reasons makes little sense.
I'd be quite happy to see Pence replace Trump via impeachment, and via the convoluted and untried 25th Amendment process too, because by the time we are likely to have either solution in hand ( mid-to-late 2019 or 2020), the GOP and Trump's entire administration will be so tainted that whatever remaining time Pence might have as POTUS would be short and miserable for him and the GOP, particularly if Pence actually went completely wacky on the God front.
A more pressing problem likely to confront those of us wanting Trump out is that it may well be that the Democrats only retake the House this November, and thus really can't remove Trump without GOP help. Of course, House Democrats in this situation will likely feel obligated to do their part and then hope for the best in the Senate. Whatever happens in the Senate might bring about serious national dis-union, or the start of real national healing. The play would be up to the Republicans, if they control the Senate.
6
The Institute for the Study of Unintended Consequences is already mounting research into the extent of the impact of a Trump early departure. While high levels of satisfaction will be found amongst Liberal and Progressive demographics the long range outcomes will increase depression and despair in subsequent years for those same populations. Early departure is also projected to increase the possibility of a continuation of the moral, environmental, and religiious policies now in place.
As a gay man, I am deeply concerned about what a Pence presidency could mean for LGBT Americans. After all, for a long time, the Christian right to which Pence belongs has warned followers about the so-called "Gay Agenda," which is how they characterize LGBT Americans' legitimate quest for civil rights and equal treatment under the law.
Just this year, however, it has become clear that fundamentalist Christians have an agenda of their own, and it goes by the name of "Project Blitz."
One purpose of Project Blitz is to codify conservative Christian objectives such as “establishing public policy favoring adoption by intact heterosexual, marriage-based families” and “establishing public policy favoring intimate sexual relations only between married, heterosexual couples” into state law.
Project Blitz also advances the aims of Christian nationalists to obtain political "dominion" over all Americans.
While President Trump is not going to obstruct Project Blitz, a President Pence would support it wholeheartedly and would likely seek to push similar legislation at the federal level.
Lastly, it's important to note that Pence has embraced, and been embraced by, the Family Research Council, a rabidly homophobic organization that the Southern Poverty Law Center has identified as a hate group.
So yes, Mr. Bruni is correct when he calls Mike Pence a holy terror.
19
@A. Davey Pence is one person. He can't unilaterally do as much change as you fear without causing a national uproar. He couldn't set us back more than Trump. He was a nobody Senator who would never have the demagogic qualities Trump has. He has no financial baggage, no weekend golfing addiction, no nepotism practices, etc.
3
All of Mike Pence's attributes, beliefs and impulses, and his hatred of women in particular, will make him an excellent commander of Gilead.
27
If I had a fearsome malignant tumor that, if left in place, would kill me, but the removal of which would save my life, I would have it surgically removed ASAP. No question about it. Even if a potential complication of the life-saving surgery was potentially fatal hemorrhage, I would still choose the surgery. Remove the tumor; worry about the surgical side effects when or if they occur.
9
“They’re our next-door neighbors, and you can actually see Russia from land here in Alaska, from an island in Alaska.”
-Sarah Palin
I wonder what Mike Pence sees from his view point? His near view is myopic. The lens he sees the world with would likely be bumbling visionless.
5
Another day, another attack on conservative Christian belief on the opinion pages of the New York Times. Why am I not surprised at the prejudice and outright bigotry by the Times towards evangelical Christians? I guess the left considers it to be the only acceptable form of bigotry.
And just for the record, I am neither an evangelical Christian nor someone who voted for the Trump-Pence ticket in 2016. But, I will stand up for people who practice their Christian faith.
4
@Ron Wilson Really? But would you allow such a "Christian" as Pence to force his views on a country that is supposed to be free of one religion at the expense of others? You can support his right to BE an Evangelical Christian without supporting his desire to transform our country into Gilead. His "faith" is very ugly, very prejudiced and very dangerous and the power he would have, indeed the power he already has now, is catastrophic for a Democratic Republic. I guess it's easy for a straight (presumably) white man to defend a religious viewpoint that steps on the backs of women, minorities, LGBTQ person's, persons who practice other religions or practice none at all. He wants to pray? Fine. But Pence doesn't want to, and hasn't in the past, merely prayed, he has PREYED on others who are different to him, people who are far more educated, tolerant, kind and compassionate than he is. He is the worst kind of bigot: one with enormous power. And his power could get larger. He and Trump are two of the most morally reprehensible men in the U.S.
@Ron Wilson
The problem is not their faith but the fact that they made a pact with the Devil to advance the cause of their Christian faith.
Adam and Eve were expelled from the Garden of Eden for having done just that.
@Ron Wilson - an you'll stand up for them as they work tirelessly to ensure that there is one set of laws for you and another set of laws for them? That they may discriminate against you, yet they are legally immune from even being criticized by you, because of their "sincerely held" beliefs?
I suggest you read a little more widely, and give the situation a critical re-think.
6
"Pence is a titanic fraud, and I do mean titanic."
Thank you again, American patriot Steve Schmidt.
19
"Trump wouldn’t be president if God didn’t want that." I love this meme from the pseudo-Christians. They certainly never said that about Obama. Was God napping or something in 2008 and 2012?
42
@Observor - Obama was black.....that was an entirely different situation for the religious right....for them he was utterly evil and a stain on the WH--- I personally have a long term friend who called him that while he was in office..!!! I don't even know what to say to that....I was so shocked....
10
Pence is American's second most repulsive figure after Trump.
He is a fake christian gaslighter-in-chief who is easily manipulated by those around him.
26
Pence's self-righteousness was wearing thin even in die-hard Republican Indiana.
His connections to Koch brothers billions was the main attraction for Trump, although he was against Trump's nomination before he became the chosen one. Pence's known political ambitions won out in this scenario.
15
This is why impeachment alone wouldn't be enough. The 2016 Presidential election would have to be invalidated.
Since that is improbable, better for Democrats to take the House and/or the Senate in the midterms and then just block and harass Trump but not impeach. Then, take back the White House and prosecute private citizen Trump.
8
Nice piece. My answer to your question - do you prefer Pence to Trump? - is ‘yes’. The reason? Because it is highly unlikely that Pence would ever be elected President. First, he has none of Trump’s ‘oratorical skills’. Indeed, most commentators believe he would not have been re-elected Gov of Indiana. Second, I think most, perhaps not all, people fine him weird. He won’t meet one-on-one with a woman? Really? Looking to 2020, I would prefer to see Pence’s name on the ballot.
15
Yes, this fit with what my evangelical relatives had been saying prior to the 2016 election that they looked past Trump to Pence as part of God's plan and that Hillary was anti-christian. They would say this is a certain cult-like zeal. When challenged on proving that Hillary was anti-christian they couldn't provide any thing to support their claims.
9
America, by design of the Founding Fathers, does not have a state religion.
But now we have republicans in both Federal and State government who wish to impose a state religion on our country. Pence is a shining example as is Ted Cruz and his father.
Pence is a right wing evangelical. Ted Cruz is leader for Dominionism, like his father that wants to set up their version of religion that all the rest of us would have to cow-tow to.
17
Pence is unable to create the cult-like following of Trump's lemmings, therefore I would much prefer him as president. He was an unpopular governor of Indiana, and the country would soon turn on him. That would be an enormous advantage for Democrats.
8
Pence is dreadful for all the reasons you explain, but the country might be better off with him for the time being for one reason - He doesn't possess Trump's charisma. Trump might be right when he says that his hard-core supporters would overlook his behavior even if he were to "shoot someone in the middle of 5th Avenue." I doubt that Pence would be the object of such slavish devotion. A man who couldn't hold on to the governor's office in Indiana, might have even more difficulty holding on to the Presidency. And then our national nightmare would be over, at least for awhile.
10
It scary to think Trump is seen as having charisma. I see a an extremely inarticulate carnival huckster.
18
@LLB
I agree. If Trump were to be impeached and convicted before finishing this presidential term, we might get Pence for a relatively short interim, but it seems unlikely to me that he would have the national appeal to be elected in 2020 on his own merits. And if Trump did get impeached, it would most likely mean that one or both houses of congress had flipped and Democrats were in power. Pence could be held in check, unlike the present scenario where a Republican congress refuses to hold Trump back. I think many who fear a Pence presidency, or a partial term as president, are envisioning the same Republican dominated situation as we now have. Pence doesn't become president without Democrats at least holding the majority in one house.
8
@Michael McGinley I think he does, but it is the type that appeals to the worst instincts.
5
The large number of appointments shepherded by Pence have already been extremely destructive to the country. Pence has proven himself to be as stealthy at controlling the presidency as Cheney was with W, except his not so hidden agenda is more nefarious than Cheney's. I consider Pence to be "assassination insurance" much as Dan Quayle was for GHW Bush.
The best citizens can do is VOTE for Democrats in November and lock down this administration by giving the Democrats in Congress the majority. Do the same in states to turn the governorships and state AG democratic so they take the initiative to sue the Trump administration.
10
I don't know if anyone else notices this about Mr. Pence when he stands behind Mr. Trump, but that smile is just eerie. Chuck Todd mentioned it the other day on his show after I had mentioned it to my wife. Is he just kvelling at Mr. Trump or blissed out that he's exactly where god wants him to be?
9
Pence said he doesn't believe in the separation of church and state which we were founded on. Our forefathers came here to escape the rule of Catholicism on Italy, Spain, Portugal and the rule of the Church of England on other countries. We have no national religion but Pence insists we are a Christian nation and no other religion need apply. Trump chose him for this reason: so that we would be so afraid of Pence we would not impeach Trump. Ryan is just as bad as the other two. We are doomed with the three of them at the top. The Democrats will have to get out every vote. And we have to stop the gerrymandering and the Russian influence, both tall orders but necessary for the future of our great country.
15
Cruelty and lying are the natural bedfellows of those who consider themselves as the pure and pious. The kind that carry religion on their sleeves and make a show of it in and out of season. Pence fits the bill to the tee. Besides, he's as phony as a Right Winger can get - and that's saying a LOT, lot all in capital letters.
6
Mr. Pence, you say, “ordered up a collection of custom-embroidered clothes — dress shirts, polo shirts, and vests and jackets — decorated with his name and the words Governor of Indiana”. Well, that probably deterred the other kids at camp from stealing his stuff.
How enormous the egos and how pathetic (some of) their expression. I wish we could laugh off the inhumane acts of this party and this administration.
Harriet (furiously sewing "future queen of Gondal and Angria" on my resort wear)
6
Where do the Republicans get these politicians from anyway, Dante's Inferno?
21
Sarah Palin was forced on the GOP in 2008 because the religious right threatened a floor fight at the GOP convention if someone they approved of wasn't on the ticket. Palin had been groomed for years by a field operative in Anchorage working for the Alliance Defending Freedom (ADF). The ADF is funded by evangelicals with the mission of injecting their doctrine into public laws at the local, state and federal levels. All those anti-abortion laws passed in red states are no coincidence, the ADF is a bill mill.
Mike Pence no doubt was on the GOP ticket in 2016 to again appease religious extremists in our nation. He is why 80% of evangelicals voted for Trump; they wanted their guy waiting in the wings for Trump's ouster.
The GOP made a pact with the devil by courting evangelicals, were the mother church of the KKK, and still are. They will drag us back to the dark ages one step at a time.
14
They both have to go , and we do have a choice by voting these two obscene men into oblivion where they can do their crooked deals or worship their own version of christianity .
6
As a resident of Michigan, it has long been clear to me that Pence picked DeVos for education secretary - remember how Trump couldn't even remember her name?
12
I've had run-ins with such self-styled Christians. They ignore everything that Jesus taught, which he summed up by quoting the Talmud: "Love God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength; and your neighbour as yourself." Any stance that fails to align with that Summary is un-Christian.
8
Why getting rid of Donald Trump?
We elected him to do what he is doing.
No more reason to impeach Donald Trump than there was to impeach Barack Obama.
1
Sad.
7
What was the cost of Trumps life insurance policy…?
One Pence.
13
Another counsel of despair from this columnist. One battle at a time, Mr Bruno.
1
Sorry, folks. To put it bluntly- Pence would be a huge problem for America. Trump is a yuuuge problem for the entire world.
9
Both Trump/Pence are nightmares who should be removed from office asap.
9
He's a Liar For Jesus, almost exactly the last sort of person who should be President, or indeed any sort of government official. So long as Pence is next in line we must be very careful to see that Trump completes his one term in office.
3
To what else but God's will can a bigoted ignoramus ascribe his prominence?
13
Looks count-right? When I see Pence, I see Mister Potato Head. Agree?
10
I am worried sick about Trump's physical health. We seem to be one double-cheeseburger away from him exploding and the nation being saddled with a dangerous psychopath who weaponizes religion. After Pence hoses away the messy Trumpian bits from the Oval Office with Pencean holy water, he will proceed to bring on "The Handmaiden's Tale" full bore, with the judicial blessings of Gorsuch and Kavanaugh.
8
So it comes down to a sociopath (Trump) or a psychopath (Pence). I'll choose the psychopath. Trump's deluded base will not fanatically support Pence, whose lizard like gaze would send children and adults scurrying for the bushes to hide and survive.
8
Wow! Thank you. Your post painfully details the collection of debased, corrupt deplorables that comprise our government in power. Only one has an iota of integrity - James Mattis.
6
From bitter experience, I know that anyone who identifies as a “Christian first”, is a scary act to avoid. The fact that we have an “Ambassador-at-Large for International Religious Freedom”, should alert us that the goal of the religious right of the Republican Party is out to Christianize the world, again. Plus the fact that this Ambassador is another failed state governor like Pence, it’s enough to set one screaming into the night. Theocracy is living through a fairytale book misinterpreted by those who abide by its tenants. This is Pence, and he hates everything about you if you’re not christian first.
9
America's choices in this regards are very limited:
You will get the Pot that is blacker than the Kettle...
The Goose that thinks it's better than the Gander...
Worse the Devil you don't really know...
The cure that is far worse than the Disease...
The real Fox among the Chicken...
A greater Nero that can really Fiddle whilst Rome burns...
The Hypocrite hiding in the Hedgerow...
The Devil in his Details...
and then some...
There are Pounders, Shillers and Pence in currency...beware.
4
ag-new (ag' noo) vt. -- to prudently remove an unfit vice president from office before passing articles of impeachment against an even less fit president.
10
Sometime, when reading history and royalties who governed in England, Russia, France and elsewhere you wonder how some of the degenerate who ended up on the throne made it.
It looks like it was mostly due to "Raspoutine" likes scheming worms who today could be named Fox, Bannon, Limbaugh, Hannity, McConnell, and so on.
6
What would Jesus do?
Well, according to the book that right wing so called Christians quote like it was Scripture, we know what Jesus did:
He healed the sick.
He fed the hungry.
He visited the prisoner.
He clothed the naked.
He tended the poor.
He threw the bankers and merchants out of the temple.
He forgave those who tortured and murdered him.
He did all that with love and compassion, not with self-righteous judgement.
He did exactly the opposite of what these so called Christians in the republican party are doing.
24
I’m betting that this slime is as corrupt as Agnew was.
Dig up the dirt on this pestilence.
9
"Heaven help us."
Oh, it will, though probably too late for any of us to enjoy it.
But do take comfort in the fact that in Mike Pence's fundamentalist and theocratic view, his immortal soul is still in jeopardy.
How so?
Mike Pence used to be a Catholic. He apostasized on his own free will to his Protestant fundamentalism. And as any Catholic fundamentalist knows, extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extra_Ecclesiam_nulla_salus
Lucifer is sharpening the pitchforks right now for the eternal punishment of Mike Pence, Apostate.
Please, Jesus, don't let him be able to say a perfect act of contrition on his deathbed!
2
Pence rising to the office of POTUS would give every Christian who betrayed their own faith with a vote for Trump the opportunity to redeem themselves by then making the claim that it was God's plan all along in order to put a true-believing theocrat in power. We'd never hear the end of it.
4
If Trump does get impeached, whose to say there wouldn't be enough ammunition to impeach Pence. After all, Pence has gone to great lengths to push Trump's wishes (you noticed I didn't say agenda because I don't believe he has one). During the past year-and-a-half Pence has been more than conciliatory acting in unison with the rest of the GOP. You can't help but question their motives especially learning of the Putin/NRA/Republican money scheme. Maybe impeachment for Pence could serve as a means to restore our democracy. Is that asking too much?
5
I am under no illusions that Mike Pence would be a better president than Donald Trump; he might even be a worse one. But he would also be a much less re-electable one so, given the choice, I'd take it.
5
and the only thing that is protecting us is Trumpian levels of incompetence.
2
A Republican friend who lived in Indiana during Mike Pence's term as Governor cautioned me when I began expressing dislike for the President's actions and behavior. "Be careful what you ask for," he noted, adding "I know Mike Pence - he's much worse!" This from a life long Republican who has never voted against the GOP. We must be rational in our resistance or we will be fighting a theocracy after the kakistocracy collapses.
10
@Average Republican America needs new citizens. The birth rate has fallen to where more people are dying than are being born. America, like Canada, needs immigrants. Who will be the workers of tomorrow? Who will pay the taxes to keep the country running (and pay down that amazing deficit)? Two years after immigrants come to America their unemployment rate is lower than non-immigrants. Baby Boomers are retiring in droves. Without immigration, a country has no future.
4
This is becoming a cliched and fairly tired argument.
Mr. Trump's proclivities and manias lead him to undermine the very structure of government and democracy. Pence just wants to make whatever God he worships the law of the land, something against which there are several, fairly unbreachable, even constitutional barriers. And bringing on the end times might be attractive, but the choice looks less and less sexy once you can actually do it by pressing a button.
So, no. There's no way Pence could be worse than Trump.
You mailed this one in, Mr. B.
2
What you want to see is Trump immobilized by scandal or by his blundering incompetence. Also needed: a Democratic majority in a house of congress. Then we can send the whole thing packing in 2020.
4
Maybe an effective strategy for moderates, liberals and democrats alike is to convert to Christianity. I say this tongue in cheek but I do wonder why some of them who are “believers” don’t try to publicly profess their faith more...use it to redefine “religious” and “believer” on the campaign trail. If religious convictions sway voters enough to choose candidates like Pence, why are the rational politicians relatively silent about their faith? These “Christian” voters are craving “moral “ politicians to the extent that they cling to people like Pence. Abortion is clearly an important voting issue, so why doesn’t the Democratic Party come up with creative alternatives to reduce abortions without banning them, as an alternative that might appeal to those one-issue voters. Campaign on a platform that includes free birth control, universal health insurance, job training programs and incentives for pregnant women, employee childcare assistance incentives for employers, safety infrastructure for abused women. Spin all this into an abortion reduction campaign platform if that’s what it takes to capture the votes. It will take years to shift the way our culture thinks about solving this argument but we need to redirect the conversation to effective approaches. The fact that the GOP, Pence et al., can reproducibly claim legitimacy/authenticity with the religious voters should tell the Democratic Party to start rethinking their platforms.
3
As I understand it, if Trump were successfully impeached his vice president and some undetermined number of his appointees would be gone with him. I think that's why Republicans haven't impeached him. They don't want to lose the rubber stamp on their conservative agenda, and if Trump exits the White House any other way than by impeachment, they get to keep Pence.
1
You never really know about people - especially skilled politicians - whose job it is to package themselves for mass consumption. The President was (and is) a known entity with blemishes very apparent. Politics is not in his pedigree - business is. 2020 = Pence... and a much enlarged base.
If this guy's observations about Trump are any indication, I wouldn't believe a word he writes. Trump doesn't relish a partisan fight? What reality is D'Antonio living in? Trump took everyone on, Democrats, the Republican establishment, the pundits, the press, and he won! And he keeps winning! He has more energy than the energizer bunny. He's going to stump for Republicans for mid-terms right until the election and he's going to be successful. Trump is in it to win it. He's already announced his re-election campaign.
Once again you liberals are living in a dreamland, watching the shadows on the wall thinking it's reality. To you people, Ronald Reagan was an amiable dunce and Margaret Thatcher a grocery clerk. And you have so many more narratives that carry you away to fantasy land. Trump is real and he won and he's winning and he's here to stay. (However, I look forward to eight additional years of Pence!)
1
@Ge0ffrey Beware of that three million vote plurality, it's about to become a three million plus majority in 2018. And you can thank your liar-in-chief and the most corrupt administration in history for that. Trump and Pence will be relegated to to history's garbage dump of despots.
6
Nothing in the Constitution that says they BOTH cannot be impeached.
9
@JP Williamsburg Yep. I think Pence is just as guilty. He pretends he knows nothing, but he'd have to be the dumbest vice president ever not to.
9
Impeached for what exactly?
1
Noooooooo. Not Pence. Impeachment of DT would be a terrible mistake. 1) This Senate would not convict. 2) DT and GOP would emerge stronger than ever. 3) Pence is even worse anyway. 4) DT is just the tip of a very corrupt Republican Party. Democracy is run by voters. Below a certain threshold of voter participation, democracy dies. We've been below that threshold for awhile. Only the NRA manages a near 100% turnout. 99 days to midterms when we will learn what America is really made of. If this last election does not motivate citizens to vote, then nothing will and it's all over for us.
6
Any President who fails to honors his oath of office should be dealt with, regardless of who the VP is. This is not a personality contest based on the whims of the electorate.
6
Apart from the tooic on Mr. Pence, degraded local Christianism may carry a danger of fostering criminals for generations. This is quite a bold statement, I know, but, from the stagnated pool of lacrymonial forgiveness given literally to any one, no clear water can come out. On a practical level, moreover, the custom becomes a culture, which becomes a systm, which becomes a grid, which, at an electrifying degree, punishes anyone who speaks up to be against. Otherwise, rewards are distributed by so called “very nice people” when you decide to be always in.
When Mike Pence was a congressman he gave a speech about why evolution is wrong and why magical creationism is true. I'm not making this up.
15
frank Bruni ends his article : "Heaven help us."
but I, and millions throughout this land know full well that heavens
may have painfully little to do with saving us from pense. or from trump, for that matter.
it'll take the tireless dedication of thousands of ( mostly) young students who, realizing the peril that the country is facing with trump and pence, and the bleak future facing them, opted to put their lives on abeyance and has been volunteering to work to defeat trump, flip congress and change the horizon for all of us via the voting booth.
I've just returned from just such volunteering week in Nevada and
am still deeply inspired (and motivated) by the grass root movement of educated young students mobilizing throughout the country to flip seats in key states and DC .
THAT'S the heavens which will save us all from the current dismal scene in the country.
10
As a practical matter, Trump woiuld only be impeached if Democrats controlled the House and Senate. And that would effectively stop President Pence from doing any harm. No Supreme Court appointments, no legislation. At least it would prevent the US from sliding any further into the abyss. We'll take care of Pence in 2020.
Vote in November 2018. Please.
20
Based on other comments, there does seem to be a recognition among the population that getting rid of Trump is not the ultimate solution to the present political problem. "And Toto too..." seems strangely appropriate in answer to the so called "assassin's dilemma" -- amazingly foretold by a wise and benevolent featured player who oddly enough proves prescient in laying out for today which types of characters belong with their fates tied together. Oh, and let's not forget Ryan and McConnell. "...such a smell of sulfur."
5
Last year I made my annual charitable gift to Planned Parenthood. I asked them to send Mike Pence a thank you letter because he inspired me to choose that non-profit for my annual gift. I feel really good about that now, and will probably do again at the end of this year!
28
There have been a number of comments in this long thread stating that Mr. Pence is not a "true Christian", or that his opinions and convictions are inconsistent with the "teachings of Jesus Christ". Such statements may be well-intentioned, but they are unverifiable, unfalsifiable, and irrelevant to any discussion of political reality. They merely represent the inverse of Mr. Pence, the other side of an attempt to inject a specific religious doctrine (Christianity) into the governance of a modern, secular state. Am I to assume that if Mr. Pence's religious beliefs were more consistent with those of the commenter, he or she would have no problem with his assuming the position of President?
4
@Ellen Valle Very good point. For me, it doesn't matter how palatable, or not, Pence's beliefs are. As long as he insists on injecting them into policy and legislation I have a problem with him being in any position of power.
9
IMO, in agreement, we'd be all better off kneecapping trump (why not express this need in their own language?) in the midterms. Ideally, a veto-proof House majority, and a filibusting majority in the Senate. (Girl's gotta dream, right.....but let's call it a goal) Bottom line is, as much of a majority as possible. Whatever it takes to stop this. We can fix the rest in 2020.
13
The only thing that Americans can be thankful for regarding Pence, is that he's a terrible actor. His TV appearances show his full insincerity; his face is incapable of finding the correct expression to match his words. His facial dissonance is a real giveaway to his true intentions, his pathological lying, and his insincere fawning over a boss he very clearly detests. Pence's disgusting abuse of Christianity should see him having a long conversation with Saint Peter one day. That would be a great transcript to read!
19
If we're lucky, St. Peter's lawyer will record it.
3
actually, when it comes to pence there's zero to be thankful about.
2
Trade Trump for Pence and you go from kleptocracy to theocracy.
But, hey, take heart, America. At least you get to keep your kakistocracy and your bigot-ocracy. That ought to be some consolation, eh?
Look what you get to keep.
* An anti-science leadership
* The same crowd of crooks in the administration, especially Betsy de Vos and Ryan Zinke.
* The Goldman-Sachs management team of Mnuchin and his ilk
* Jefferson Beauregard Sessions as the Secretary of the department of [in]Justice
And all signs show that Stephen Miller will get to stay on as Mr. Pence's horse-whisperer if and when Mr. Trump leaves office.
All-in-all, I will say things are really looking good for America, If Mr. Trump leaves office and is replaced by Mr. Pence. You will still get to keep manifestly unqualified guys in office across the entire administration.
24
I have a gut-wrenching feeling that the world depicted in the "Handmaids Tale" is Pence's vision of America.
Pence is NOT the only zealot. The "Nation Pary Breakfast" group is hell-bent on forcing "We the People" to practice Catholicism of the second to fifth century's.
Putin has shown the way by mastered the fine art of using the power of the Russia Orthodox Church to subjugate the Russian people.
The big test-case is Israel who in the name of religion has proven that the State can imprison and exterminate any group without America condemnation.
The future looks very bleak, somewhere between the USA depicted in the "Hunger Games" and the "Handmaid's Tale"
7
Everything I've read about Pence's personal and political history shows an ambitious mean-spririted, narrow-minded zealot with actual experience in how government works. He terrifies me far more than Trump's open, unapologetic venality and stupidity.
15
This column vividly examples the self-inflicted wounds that have become all-too-common in a "democracy" as practiced in the "United" States. Foolish question, then (perhaps): Why is there no public discussion ~ let alone call for action ~ on the peril(s) of letting "anyone" run for political office in this country? "Who" (then) "is to judge?" may be asked. Well, if it's only "the voters" ~ and an electoral college "system" all-but-guaranteed to defeat them ~ Trump, Pence, and their ilk surely are the just reward. Imagine baseball games being scored by the most foul balls comes to mind . . .
2
There is no greater indictment of trump than his annointing of this Bronze Age looney to VP.
Anyone with half a brain knew it was all downhill from there to De Voss and Pruit and Zinke and Perry and Carson et.al. - low calibre federal judges appointed based on right wing dogma and corrupt west wing sychophants; from the best and the brightest to the least and the dullest - a tsunami of incompetence and ignorance!
Pence is more dangerous because he is glib and has the evangelist's inherited gift of spewing magical nonsense for morons into perceived logic.
He can actually form complete compound sentences-BUT -then again that might be his undoing with the barking dogs raised on trumpchildspeak.
They might think he's an elitist?
17
Yeah, Pence, what a joke. He seems the worst of a bad bunch. I don't defend him even one tiny bit, but consider this: his moral lapses may be greater in degree than other career politicians, but not different in kind.
Among those public servants whose morals are not so odious -- even among those whose policies a bleeding-heart liberal would encourage -- there exists and economy where moral standpoints are for sale, either for campaign cash, or for campaign support, or as a tit-for-tat transaction between opposing politicians.
It seems nobody is exempt. Bernie votes death to poor black communities when that vote will also enrich his New England constituents. Obama traded Muslim deaths for political points, providing death-dealing drone warfare in exchange for -- get this -- Republican support for domestic budget initiatives. We get money; brown non-christians get hellfire.
The game of governing rewards moral sellouts. When the game is based on immoral rules, can any of the players be said to occupy a moral high ground?
If you wish to discuss relative morality, please go to hell, where relative morality has more cachet.
4
Order of succession to President Donald J. Trump:
Vice President Mike Pence
Speaker of the House Paul Ryan
Senate President Pro Tempore Orrin Hatch
Secretary of State Mike Pompeo
Secretary of the Treasury Steven Mnuchin
Secretary of Defense James Mattis
Attorney General Jeff Sessions
Secretary of the Interior Ryan Zinke
Secretary of Agriculture Sonny Perdue
Secretary of Commerce Wilbur Ross
Secretary of Labor Alexander Acosta
Secretary of Health and Human Services Alex Azar
Secretary of Housing and Urban Development Ben Carson
Secretary of Transportation Elaine Chao*
Secretary of Energy Rick Perry
Secretary of Education Betsy DeVos
Acting Secretary of Veterans Affairs Peter O'Rourke**
Secretary of Homeland Security Kirstjen Nielsen
*Not born in the U.S.
**Not yet confirmed
I don't mean to be a killjoy but, scrolling down this list, it becomes more obvious than ever that we need to pin our hopes once again on that old beloved, achy, slightly arthritic and much abused warhorse, The Next Election.
46
@rjk
What a very depressing list!
12
@rjk: Look at the bright side: at least your list doesn't include Miller or Bannon. And when Trump leaves office, there's an excellent chance that Ryan or Hatch, or both, will have been replaced by Democrats.
5
Trump chose Pence because his handlers in the Republican party told him he needed the evangelical vote to win, and Trump was smart enough to realize that was true. Evangelicals who couldn't stomach Trump could hold their noses and vote for him because he had one of their own in the line of succession.
If only HRC and her handlers had been in closer touch with the Democratic party base. They would have done something similar then, and chosen Bernie Sanders to run on the ticket, instead of the ineffably bland Tim Kaine. She picked a centrist like herself and lost the entire left wing of her party and all of the younger voters. Instead, of consolidating her party, and creating a coalition of the far right and the right, as the Repubs did, she split her party's vote and millions stayed at home, rather than vote for more of the same. She made the mistake of believing that America is still a "centrist" country. It is not. As income inequality metasizes, voters are moving to the extremes on both sides. The far right and the far left are much more powerful than they have been in decades, and the center is shrinking. The DNC leadership must accept a coalition with the left, or they will be out in the cold again in November. Fortunately, there are signs that the DNC is starting to clue in. They are beginning to support more candidates who are focusing on progressive economic issues. If they do this, they will get out the vote and we won't have to worry about Pence at all.
7
If the Center is shrinking, then why is the biggest political party in America "Independents?"
2
@Colonel: The definition of "independent" is not "centrist." Many independents are far leftists or far rightists who reject moderation of any kind and have therefore abandoned both the Republican and the Democratic parties, because they are seen as equally corrupt and don't adhere to ideological purity that those cohorts of independents demand.
2
As Alec Baldwin, as Trump, said to Beck Bennett, as Pence, immediately after the election: "You're my insurance, Mike!"
That said, I hear through the internet that if a President is impeached for treason, his whole team leaves with him. Maybe that's just fake news.
5
This guy is exactly what the country doesn't need. A science denying, religious extremist, gay hating car salesman who wraps himself in the flag whenever he can. The fact that he would not have had any further political career in Indiana had he not left, which is about as far right as you can get north of the Mason Dixon Line should shed light on who he is. If he acceded to the Presidency the polarization we are experiencing under Trump would seem like a tea party compared to what would follow.
5
To those who say that Pence's theocracy would be preferable to Trump's chaos- I remind you, and our country, that evangelical Christians and the NRA have been proven complicit with Russia for a long time now. Freedom is the opposite of what they want. Working in concert, they want to control who we are, what we believe, and how we act - inside and outside of our bedrooms.
Mike Pence made no secret that he believed women who had abortions deserve capital punishment - he spent a quarter of a million dollars of OUR money to spit in the faces of men peacefully protesting the murders of black people - he shut down medical clinics and contributed to an AIDS crisis - he denied Indiana $80 million in pre-kindergarten funding at the demand of the religious right.
Pence's family poisoned land and waterways with their bankrupt gas stations and walked away from their bills for toxic waste cleanup, costing taxpayers tens of millions of dollars - and Pence denied that smoking causes cancer and kills people because their company (Tobacco Road) sold cigarettes.
Pence has proven his beliefs are not Christian - they are Sharia: prescribing both religious and secular duties and retributive penalties for lawbreaking.
No, Pence is no better than Trump:
Trump wants to steal our country, but Sharia Pence wants to steal our souls.
8
Maybe I have been operating on a false assumption. I always thought that compared to Trump, by default Pence had to be the saner one. Then I read this column and did a minimum amount of Googling. I discovered Joy Behar's comment, Behar responded to a comment on The View : “It’s one thing to talk to Jesus. It’s another thing when Jesus talks to you. That’s called mental illness, if I’m not correct, hearing voices.” Seems hard to argue with that one. I am left with a perplexing question? What is the solution? According to the the American Psychiatric Association's Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders 5th edition, (DSM-V) there is such as a thing as histrionic personality disorder (HPD). For more detailed info: https://www.psychiatry.org/psychiatrists/practice/dsm/feedback-and-quest.... It seems to me a reasonable jump to the conclusion that Trump is an addict who craves attention and that as a result he will never resign. Trump may be closer to impeachment that it seemed until all the events of the last 2 weeks. At least impeachment seems a little more likely than lightning striking Trump on one of his golf courses. In any event the Democrats MUST win in 2018 and 2020. It is not just about Trump anymore if in fact Pence could be a worse menace.
2
Flynn was not alone in his lies about Russian involvement in the the Trump campaign. Pence lied, as did Trump and his entire transition team to the American people. Pence plays ignorant but Mueller will reveal the truth.
7
Another thought might be that if indeed Trump was impeached or otherwise removed from office and Pence succeeded as president, he would have a much more difficult time prevailing in the 20/20 election. As disgusting as Trump is, he does offer to this followers a charisma that Pence lacks and I doubt that Pence would be able to rally the troops in the same way as Trump has. I think, hope, that Pence would easily lose the Trump supporters already on the fence- that is, if the elections were fair and unaltered.
A man who won't meet with women unless his wife is there is somehow more odious than a man who has had dozens of allegations of sexual misconduct laid against him?
A man who supports free trade and our allies is somehow more dangerous than a man who is praising tyrants and tearing apart the infrastructure of that America's influence is built on?
Pence would be a terrible president, but would he be a more terrible president than Trump? We've had a president like Pence before in George W Bush, another deeply religious incompetent. One who lied America into a disastrous war. Pence is just a (even) less charismatic version.
The next time you wonder how his supporters can rationalize away Trump's behavior, consider that you're doing it right now.
4
Doesn’t Pence also have a Russia problem?
4
"chosen people" - Here we go again. Another pathetic group claiming to be "chosen."
The whole point of trump attacking the press as the enemy of the people is to abolish the First Amendment - which also protects the separation between church and state. Ban the First Amendment and voila you now a have a church state - headed by trump-Pence - that restricts speech, science, education, and truths they don't like.
Once Mueller proves what we already know - that trump's presidency was obtained illegitimately, along with his VP, cabinet and SCOTUS appointments. They all need to go and a new election do over held. There's no other remedy.
Unlike Pence, trump is on a mission for himself and to save himself from Putin. If trump "just decides that he has had enough," like all autocrats, he can't give up the power he wields that keeps him out of jail or worse. That is why they stay in office for life - like Gaddafi. His consolidation on power began the day he took office signing on to run in 2020!
Our nation has been morphing into a Kleptotheocracy for years where religion - pseudo-Christianity - is being exploited for power and manipulation of the clueless base. I call it the trump-Matrix base that swallowed the trump-pill - a colorless 'supremacist-white' pill of ignorance and hate.
There's no room for a deficient Christian Ayatollah or Mullah authoritarian running this country or any country.
Perhaps Mueller's unveiling of all these cooks and crooks is "God’s [true] grand plan"
4
If Trump goes down, Pence is going with him. The Russia issue goes deep.
6
Yes! I agree. Thanks to both Frank and D'Antonio for getting this out there. Pence, the original Fake News, is horrible. I, too, have thought that from early on. Trump or Pence? Do you wish to die by fire or ice?
4
What has happened to America? " the Christian God is a being of terrific {meant at the time terrifying] character--cruel, vindictive, capricious and unjust....And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter. but we may hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in the United States will go away all this artificial scaffolding." Thomas Jefferson
7
Pence is no worse than some of the other extremist figures who have marched through public life and while his insidious ideas run counter to anything millions of us could ever embrace nothing is as egregious as the loose cannon currently taking up space in the WH - not even close.
Superb column, and don't say Frank didn't warn us.
I have long thought that the devil we know as Trump would be far less worse than the devil we don't know, Pence.
Pence really is the treacherous right-wing wolf dressed, who dresses himself in pius Christian garb, which, I think, convinces Pence he is sin- and guilt-free, no matter what awful and cruel things he does.
If you were raised Catholic, you will understand this ruse well. Sunday mass is full of these holier-than-thou. self-presenting "good" Catholics pandering to the priests, tut-tutting loudly about who is not conforming to Church doctrine, and who spend every waking moment outside church lying, cheating, and shoving aside anyone who stands in the way of their ambition and hunger for status.
Pence really is a lot like Trump morally--or more accurately immorally, since neither man has a conscience. But at least Trump is up front about his ruthless, self-serving ambition, while Pence is a nefarious, devious, totalitarian hypocrite. One of our daughters lives in IN, and she would say Pence is even stupider and thicker-skulled than Trump. Many hoosiers were thrilled and relieved when Pence left IN for D.C.
Another thing Trump & Pence have in common. Neither does or will act as president of all the people. Trump cares only for his base and those who show abject adulation to him. Pence smugly stated, "I am a Christian, conservative, and a Republican in that order." Nothing about being "an American."
Scary
4
Mike Pence is "a wolf in sheep's clothing".....
I leave it to other commenters here, whom the readers have
agreed with to spell out what a tragedy it would be if Pence
succeeded Trump.
I hope that Frank Bruni will go on CNN and explain what a
tragedy a Pence Presidency would be...Please do so Frank.
7
All you need to know about Mike Pence can be learned by examining his actions as Indiana governor regarding the RFRA (Religious Freedom Restoration Act).
6
This column is a great public service.
8
As bad as Trump is and he is Bad, Trump has No idealogy it's all about Trump. Pence is a Religious Zealous.Although Neither one is good Pence I don't believe Pence would enjoy the Fight as Trump does. First get rid of Trump then Pence.
2
Hate to say it, but if what was outlined in this article is true, then unless there's a way to get both Trump and Pence out at the same time, I'd rather the devil I know than the one called Pence.
4
When will Democrats learn that character doesn't matter one bit for the Moral Majority? For years Evangelicals have scorned, excoriated, and spit vindictiveness at Clintons and Obama because of their "poor character." Yet Evangelicals embrace bigots, liars, and xenophobes with open arms. Why? Abortion and same-sex marriage. Period.
Evangelicals will vote for anyone who stands against Roe vs. Wade. They are passionately committed to the anti-abortion agenda regardless of facts, research, logic, or data. There are no dots they will connect.
The Evangelical's blatant hypocrisy is already being felt by diminishing church attendance. Millennials are leaving in droves. Evangelicals have strained at gnats and swallowed camels. They are modern-day Pharisees but are unable to see it in the mirror. We simply must resist and out-vote them.
4
Why can’t we just make the impeachment a double ring ceremony?
15
Even though I have no interest in The Bible at any level, Revelation's talk of the coming of the "AntiChrist" is a fascinating concept. If this AntiChrist is to be successful, the first people s/he would have to deceive and recruit would be Christians. Pence and his perverted "Christianity" seems to fill the bill.
4
All very terrifying. That said, I read last week – can’t recall where – that as awful as Pence is as a human being, he would be an ineffectual lame duck as president. In either case, we have the chaos and uncertainty and instability that Putin sought with his puppet.
5
trump or Pence, what a choice, can I substitute green beans instead. trump is a madman driving a stick shift clown car on mountain roads and he can only drive an automatic ( his driver quit on him). Pence on the other hand sold his soul to the Devil a long time ago and, like the the moral vampire he is, has no image in a mirror, a one dimensional entity. trump is dangerous, sooner or later he`s gonna take us off a cliff. Pence on the other hand will make us, by law, to drink his koolaid. It would be easier to take on an obvious Pence than to protect ourselves from the mad dog driver trump.
2
Trump is beloved by his base. Trump is feared (I don't know why) by republicans in the house and Senate. I don't believe either of these things is true of Pence. His actual ability to wreak havoc is probably more limited than Trump's. A religious zealot is probably less of a threat than a deranged populist.
5
I suspect the fundamentalist Christianity of Pence is a seriously damaged product. We have seem so called Christian preachers worshiping at the altar of Mammon. We have seen their indifference t suffering in cities like Houston. I suspect pence and fundamentalist will be the last to realize how damaged they are. how hollow their crying victim rings in the ears of mot american's and most mainstream christian. The one good thing Pence put a public face on a under the radar form of Christianity most people know find abhorrent and totally un-American is it's values.
3
Pence may be an ayatollah in waiting, but Trump is a massive stain on the entire country. Much of Trump’s agenda is already controlled by Pence with strong guidance by the Koch’s, his benefactors going back years.
The House is likely to go to the Democrats this Fall, crippling a Republican president’s legislative agenda. Even more threateningly, it opens the floodgates to relentless justifiable investigations and the accompanying free publicity.
The Senate remains key to the right’s judicial goals, but nothing much changes with Pence instead of Trump. Are we going to get more regressive judges than those currently blessed by the Federalist Society and the Heritage Foundation? Not hardly.
If Trump is forced to resign by scandal, even more damning facts will soon follow. Pence can’t help but be tarred with the same brush and may even have his own legal jeopardy if he lied to investigators or the the public. (It’s not plausible that he had no idea Flynn was lying about contacts with the Russians during the transition.)
Anyway, the country will be far better off without Trump at the earliest opportunity. Pence will be a lame duck and an effective rallying point for the opposition going into 2020. Personally, I’ll be glad to have him.
5
Frank is spot on. Pence is racist, and also highly sexist. He won't have a meal with another woman if his wife isn't there? The man is vile. Makes Dan Quayle look brilliant!
4
Pence is a fake Christian and should be called out as such. He may genuinely believe in the religious views he promotes and lives, and one of the great glories of this country when it is working as intended is that he gets to do that undisturbed by the contrary views of others and by the government. But there is nothing Christian about those views aside from his co-opting of the name of Jesus. You can't find Jesus teaching the kind of exclusion, denigration, misogyny, sexism, homophobia, xenophobia and other hate- and fear-filled policies that Pence promotes and strongly advocates for anywhere in the Bible. And another glory of America when it's working as intended is that, while Pence has the right to believe what he wishes, he should not have the right to use the government to force those beliefs on anyone else. Sadly, this is exactly what he is doing, with a great deal of success under this anti-American administration. I cannot imagine how sad Jesus must be to see His teachings perverted in such a grotesque way.
Mike, your beliefs are entitled to respect when you keep them to yourself. But when you act to force them on others who do not share them, you commit an act of violence that is the opposite of Christian.
13
Trump is too incompetent, too much of a con man, and too dangerous to the US and the world to allow him to stay, no matter who his VP is. Mike Pence is awful, sure. But he won't carry Trump's base the way Trump can. Pence will attract only the farthest right of Trump voters. Pence will be easier to defeat in 2020. We need to take that chance, anyway.
4
Pence is the type of neighbor that I would love and the type of homeowners association president I would hate.
1
I have friends who live in Indiana. They say he couldn't have been elected to be a porta potty cleaner after bungling everything he touched in Indiana. They figure Trump picked him cause he is even dumber than Trump and therefore a good stooge for Trump.
If there was no Trump Pence would be making a living running some kind of religious con game, maybe. Who knows there's lots of competition in that racket.
6
Pence is scarier than Trump.
2
Pence is like a shadow following trump around. Calling Pence'the shadow president' is appropriate. It's weird and he's weird.
Pence loves millionaires/billionaires. He feels whatever power they perceive they have will rub off on him. He was a poor governor and an ineffective Congressman. He's a religious zealot and like most looks down on people he thinks aren't as 'white' as he is and people who are not 'Christians' by his definition. That's allot of people. He should have lived during the Crusades so he could go off to war against the 'infidels'. Pence missed his calling and his century.
2
After this disastrous 19 months of Liar Trump, I think at this point I'd take my chances with religious zealot, Pence.
He's so bland and boring Pence would never get re-elected.
3
Trump is a blatant bully whose only overriding goal is himself.
Pence is a dangerous, disingenuous manipulator. He is the sly Eddie Haskell figure: the kind who takes away freedoms while saying “Your dress is lovely, Mrs. Cleaver.”
10
Being from Indiana, I have said that folks who hate Trump will wish him back once they get Pence. He is smart, articulate, and a capable politician. He is determined, and he is often wrong. I think it wrong to say he is cruel. This is symptomatic of bubble tribalism. He is definitely on the conservative, traditional side and knows how to package it. But Mr. Bruni needs to keep his disagreement with Pence's value system in perspective. Remember, after seeing Hamilton and being petulantly lectured by actors who unwittingly portrayed a supporter of Alien and Sedition Act, Pence told his family that that is what freedom sounds like. He may be a lot of things, but outright evil is not one. There are good reasons to vote against him but to demonize him is a symptom of something else more serious.
2
Is Pence so innocent in all Trump's troubles? Or has he just kept his head down. He has certainly supported every lie and has participated in the obstruction of justice. Perhaps both of them can be impeached at the same time. Pence is surely stained far too deeply to simply get off scot free.
5
First, I don't believe Trump will step down. He knows he needs the protection of the office to shield him from the tsunami of criminal indictments that would engulf him as an ordinary citizen.
Second, in any case, I don't believe Pence would stand a chance of winning in a general election. Evangelical fanatics don't have the numbers to put him over the top, and he represents little of interest to the balance of Trump supporters.
1
Would the country really have much to fear from Pence as president? Pence has none of Trump's dazzle, he cannot match Trump in his ability to entertain a crowd, and it's unlikely Pence could ever fill a venue with thousands of cheering fans. Trump supporters may shift their votes over to Pence, but he won't hold them like the Great Man does. Mike & Mother have no charisma, and it's almost impossible to imagine Pence remaking the entire Republican Party in the way Trump has. He may try to carry on MAGA, but he simply lacks the star power, the magnetism and the power of Trump. And, even many Christians think his piety is forced. Pence would be as ineffective in the White House as he was as Indiana's Governor. He may not even be able to hold the support of Congressional Republicans, many of whom (except for the tiny far-right wing) admit that he is too extreme in nearly all his positions. He likely would turn out to be a forgettable presence and have no affect at all.
if clear and convincing evidence is uncovered that clearly implicates Trump, then he must be impeached and convicted. This much is clear despite what's waiting in the wings.
However, I suspect that if such evidence is found, there will be more than enough to also implicate Pence. So both will be removed from office. That leaves Ryan, another poor choice for leader. And perhaps even more dangerous than Trump or Pence. For Ryan has the wherewithal to actually enact legislation. And his vision for America is not a healthy one.
2
Democrats must contain both Trump and Pence by winning majorities in the House and Senate in Nov. Then sit tight. No impeachment no matter how provoked. No President Pence ever. Congress has the control of the purse and can block any executive action by thoughtful laws and funding. Over-ride vetoes as needed; and there will be plenty. Then in 2020, finish the job and return the rule of law and decency to the White House.
3
Totally agree with you, Mr. Bruni. Pence is simply awful. Early on I desperately thought Trump should be impeached. I've since changed my mind (almost), for the reasons stated in this article, and also helpful was reading the recent book by Laurence Tribe and Joshua Matz, "To End a Presidency - The Power of Impeachment". The authors lay out innumerable reasons Trump qualifies for impeachment, but also lay out the significant downside. I would love nothing more than showing the world that we Americans can get rid of Trump, but perhaps better to vote and get as many non-Republicans in Congress as possible, and legislate effectively to diminish Trumps damage and ride it out until 2020. Congressional Censure would be slightly effective. The impeachment of Bill Clinton was a nasty thing to observe and on a personal level, it was the catalyst for my husband and I to leave the Republican party and become voting Democrats, after witnessing the meanness and hypocrisy of the Republicans during that dark episode.
3
Mr. Bruni, it has been some time since I read such an outright condemnation of anyone. I hope there is some forgiveness in Pence's god.
Like you, I live in great fear of a Pence presidency. Great fear. This is the proverbial "rock and a hard place."
I hope I have the nerve to read D'Antonio's book.
2
Impeach both Trump and Pence. Vote out every Republican in Congress. Impeach the Republican apparatchiks on the Supreme Court. Clean house. Get the country back on track. Support universal free education so that our fellow citizens can't be duped again.
4
I want to get rid of the entire administration. If it can be demonstrated that Trump only got into the White House because of Russia, for example, then his entire administration if "fruit of the poisoned tree" and must go. Further, all judges appointed through Trump to the federal bench, including Neil Gorsuch, must go.
It would be a huge Constitutional crisis, but better than what we have at this point.
1
Out of the frying pan, into the fire. That's what awaits this country if Pence takes charge. He can hardly wait for Trump to be removed from office. That's what he's thinking about when you see Pence's face, standing along side Trump's speeches. It is this outcome that may help like-minded Republicans join the impeachment process.
1
Yes, I would still rather have Pence than Trump. Pence doesn't stand much of a chance of winning a presidential election especially with Trumps reputation having over him.
I'd love to see all these science doubters - like Pence, but there are many others - relieved of all their 'evil' scientific products, starting with man made fibers, cell phones, internal combustion engines, and modern medicine.
I am sick to death of the utter hypocrisy of the people who cherry pick the bits of science they like (medical 'miracle' cures, that ignore the 20 years of intense lab research that went before) and denounce the bits they don't like (20 years of intense climate research they choose to ignore.) That these people now run what used to be the world's most technologically advanced nation, horrifies me.
5
As the various investigations close in on Trump, he may very well resign as the victim of a deep state conspiracy, rather than endure the many revelations of his corrupt, even illegal behavior. Throwing the country into the hands of a rigid theocrat like Mike Pence could be his ultimate act of defiance . . . and destruction of the core values of our republic.
1
The column tells me just how strange Pence is . Before I only knew him as one of the greatest hacks in American politics. All I can add is to remind readers is that he would have never captured the GOP nomination for VP without the full support of the GOP establishment. He’s their hack.
3
I appreciate this chilling column describing Pence as a religious zealot. I was already chilled to the bone after reading a superior New Yorker article about him--a couple of years ago, I believe it was.
He is a self-aggrandizing, holier-than-thou, altogether scary character. Bought and sold by billionaires for whom he is a toady.
Be careful what you wish for impeachment advocates!
5
I am ashamed that I graduated from the same college as Pence, 12 years before him, in 1970. But I disavowed Hanover College, and Indiana, more than 40 years ago. I know what a handicap growing up in Indiana can be! I've done my best to overcome it.
2
People across the spectrum have long wondered how evangelicals could have possibly embraced the rise of Donald Trump, no one's idea of the perfect choir boy.
If this unholy alliance has startled us, take a moment to pause and consider what forces might be unleashed if the religious right gets the kind of candidate it really wants at the top of the Republican ticket. Someone who believes that the separation of Church & State is the Devil's Playground.
And let this idea slowly sink in: for many of these true believers, the means to power are wholly justified by the ends - i.e., their very human understanding of God's Plan for the End Times (file under: Scott Pruitt).
Add this dollop of whipped cream: commentators on the right constantly harp on the "smugness" and "self-righteous" of the left.
Then top the sundae off with this marinated cherry: sometime in the very near future, we may all be schooled in what true self-righteous really is.
3
What a strange article. So . . . if it should be proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that Trump has committed crimes for which he should be removed from office, we should ignore them just so we don't get Pence. How does that support our crumbling democracy? This piece is not helpful.
3
It’s Trump’s base, not Pence’s. Evangelicals have become a fringe group. Not enough to win. That said, I fear the possibility of spineless republicans selling out again in the name of economic policies.
1
Still, Pence is the lesser evil. Bruni is correct about his obvious shortcomings, but Pence would not be able to inspire fear the way Trump does. Can you imagine Pence's tweets provoking anything other that laughter?
3
I'm no fan of Pence. However, I doubt that he is electable as President. He simply doesn't have even a rudimentary iota of charm or charisma or personality. That coupled with his poor reputation as governor of Indiana could stop him. Also, I have a strong feeling that if Trump goes down, Pence will go with him.
Too optimistic? Hope not. The books look very scary!
3
While having other countries meddling in national affair is seriously wrong and crazy, Americans also need to remember the enemy within, who are, as this article points out, far right conservative Christians and their leaders.
Any group who can equate hate and hate based violence, racism, misogeny, austerity, homophobia, animal abuse, harm to and destruction of the natural world and its ecosytem and species with some noble aim or gain is a real, constant and immediate threat and danger.
The harm they have done, and can potentially do to America, its citizens, humanity and our world and planet is deep, real and meaningful, and we should all as good human beings be very dedicated to ending their reign of ignorance, lies, sin, hate and terror.
1
What makes you think that Pence is also not guilty and must go? In fact I think the rot in the Republican Party runs wide and deep. Let’s hope that truth and justice will ultimately prevail. I think traditional Republicans are a good balance to Democrats but their party has a malignancy that needs to be cured first.
3
I didn’t take a book about Pence to recognize he is a danger to civil liberties, democracy, and the Earth.
5
I assert that Pence is yet another co-conspirator.
Paul Manafort pushed Pence in the VP slot by falsely asserting Trump's 757 was unable to fly due to a maintenance squawk, thus Trump would need to spend the night in Indianapolis.
This provided more face-time for Pence with Trump and the deal was set.
Pence has repeatedly lied in public about his knowledge of Flynn's exposure to Russians. Why lie?
4
Republicans showed the foresight to create the Pence poison pill.
Zero sum game, Trump's favorite.
Fortunately, Trump’s “oleaginous” (to quote George Will) sidekick has all the charisma of an poe-faced undertaker. As such, he seems unlikely to fully win over the more fervently nihilistic segment of Trump’s base that was/is looking for nothing more than a disruptive “chaos agent” that will relentlessly beat up on those viewed as existential “enemies” to this group of perpetually aggrieved whiners.
2
I am only giving my opinion because it will make me feel better.
Someone takes the time to write a book, he is an author and when someone reads it, they give the writer credit and full admiration for being a genius. This nation is running amuck with followers of the new futuristic society of know- it- all. Someone will view this piece and set out to tear it in shreds. Thank God I do not care for I know my opinion is only mine, but , for now, I still have the right to express it. No one has the right to throw stones because none of us have the right to judge others, since we are all riddled with the tapeworms of personal sin. Folks, look around in your own world of daily livings and measure the effect you are having on bettering the little world you live in. Your only self appointed throne is you toilet seat.
Mankind has done a great job of gradually destroying this planet, and what I do not understand is: why do we continue to look to others for advice and counsel, other than we all know we do not have the answers after all?
I was a helicopter pilot in Vietnam during 1968-1969 and I know first hand that a corpse smells like a sweet read rose giving up its very essence of life and wilting into decay. That is what social media has done to this country by providing all of us the stage to reveal to everyone else all of our hidden faults and true humanity and the smell of death of my country and yours is getting worse by the minute.
1
I think you confuse your garden variety commenters on social media with people who have deeply researched, edited and published their understanding of their findings. It’s this kind of anti-intellectualism — the inability to discern credible from dubious, expert from charlatan — that is truly troubling. And it speaks volumes about where we are as a country. It is incredibly important that writers are researching the pasts of our public officials.
1
I very much doubt Pence could generate the rabid loyalty of a good chunk of the Trump base. I'd rather have Trump out asap, and take my chances in 2020.
Of course, I also thought Trump's candidacy was a bad joke.
2
Everyone, please read this. To many of us who have been closely following this Administration, nothing in this piece is news. I, personally, have feared Pence since the beginning. Jane Mayer's book, Dark Money, reveals a lot about him. And, thanks to the forthcoming book and this splendid piece, the hypocrisy and evilness of Pence will be widely known. To answer your question, Mr. Bruni, "Yes, I am sure I want to get rid of Donald Trump" but, only if Pence goes with him, hand in hand.
1
Least we forget, President Nixon's Vice President SPIRO AGNEW was purposely gotten rid of before Nixon resigned!
6
Trump or Pence? Not sure it matters from a policy perspective in that Trump is so thoroughly beholden to the Evangelicals. Pence's strength, however, is that he can act like a grownup and may be the more electable of the two. See Average Republican's comment below.)
By now most voters know that Trump is a buffoon and Pence is a psychopath. Yet all we get from the NYT opinion pages is reiteration, reiteration, reiteration. Never a mention of Citizens United, which allowed a few billionaires to put these two fools in charge of the most powerful country on earth.
9
You just described a devious religious extremist, intent, if given the chance, to govern by edict and religious dogma however counter to science and empiric evidence. As much as some of us decry Trump's stupidity, Pence would be infinitely more snaky. snarly, and sneaky, with his rigid ideology and Machiavellian style. He 'belongs' to the time of Christian Crusades, where any Muslim refusing to convert to Christianity was summarily tortured and killed. Poor America, darned if they keep it's lying ugly American in-chief, and darned if not (in Spanish we say: " caer de la sarte'n al fuego" (falling from a frying pan into the fire).
2
Proof there is no God - if there were one, he would smite these people.
4
If the purpose of this extremely biased article is to change hearts and minds, then the author has done neither. Nor is he serving the cause of objective, informative journalism by quoting Mr. D'antonio as a source, since that writer also has it in for Republicans and the president. Perhaps if 1 were to plumb the "arrieres pensees" of the author of this piece, 1 would discover that the motives of Mr. BRUNI r two fold: to temporarily distract public attention from The Donald's success in raising the gdp to over 4 percent, and to "regler les comptes(settle the hash) of the v.p. because of Pence's fervent belief in Christianity and his opposition to those who oppose traditional marriage between a man and a woman. Bruni is free to believe otherwise, and to lobby in his columns for gay rights. But he should also be aware that the vast majority of Americans disagree! Can't think of 1 relative of mine who, even of he did read the Times newspaper, would not find this article frivolous, superfluous. Most of us are Christians, like those who founded this country, and most of us believe in traditional marriage, as does the vice president.Amazing that when Mr. BRUNI appears on CNN or another cable news station, he seems so reasonable, but when he writes, he seems to lose perspective, becomes intolerant, appearing a trifle "dingue," no disrespect where none is intended!
1
@Alexander Harrison
You have inadvertently invented a mythical species, "those who oppose traditional marriage between a man and a woman." Absolutely no one "opposes traditional marriage," but many today many people all stripes do believe that the legal rights and privileges that are available to some should be available to all - what we sometimes refer to as "equal protection under the law."
You write that "the vast majority of Americans" disagree with Mr. Bruni's ideas about gay marriage but, objectively speaking, that is simply not true. A recent Gallup poll (from May, 2018) indicated that 67% of Americans - more than 2 out of 3 - support same-sex marriage.
A slightly older poll (from 2015) indicated that 75% of Americans identified themselves as Christians.
Needless to say, there is a huge overlap between the two groups. Statistically speaking, it's safe to say that most Christians today don't see a contradiction between following their religion and supporting equal rights for gays.
1
If you don’t know what Dominionism is, you better find out fast. Dominionists are running things; Trump’s not. The war threats against Iran, the embassy move to Jerusalem, love for Putin, vouchers, push for so-called “religious liberty,” . . . I could give you a dozen more but it’s all about Christian nationalism, i.e. establishing Christian dominance in a country meant to be free of it.
7
Pence has zero charisma. He's the perfect example of what my grandfather would call "the nasty meek", reeking of unearned self satisfaction oiled with that old dictator special feeling of having been chosen by God.
At what point does playing dumb to a full fledged psycho, including doubling down on the lies make someone culpable? Rick Wilson is right about Trump, everything he touches turns to .. is tainted by association. Hence, a very soiled Pence.
2
Pence thinks Christians are the chosen people? What, like Jews, only without the humor?
Mike Pence is as big a liar as Donald Trump is. Donald's claim that Michael Flynn was fired for lying to Mike Pence is risible. But Pence has repeated that story every time he's asked.
But the issue of getting rid of Donald is as patriotic as it is moral. He is not only a dangerously reckless president, he's so venal and dishonest. But so is the vice-president.
To make God happy, we'd have to dump them both. Then Speaker Pelosi will be the first woman president.
6
"There are problems with impeaching ["covfefe"]. A big one is the holy terror waiting in the wings."
Who's still calling for *only* impeaching him? The entire Cabinet is easily proven in on his schemes (and those of his boss), and they haven't invoked the 25th (yes, that's Pence's and a majority of THIS Cabinet's job!) as one would expect them to do to such an evil idiot. The new Congress needs to impeach down the line—we're not voting for them to "control" or be a "check" on the dotard.
Look how well "checking" him worked when you demanded he impose sanctions on his boss's country and he outright ignored you.
Look how well "checking" him worked when he kidnapped kids from their immigrant parents, and how in imprisoning[1] both he left the latter and very likely the former open to mass sexual abuse (something "covfefe" is very familiar with)—perhaps as intended.
Look how well "checking" him worked in the multiple times he's imploded basic diplomacy with his mental-illness tweets.
Look how well "checking" him worked when his Cabinet ripped up existentially important regulations that try to keep us from dying of the global climate chaos that's now well underway.
Enough. No more weak "checks" on someone who wouldn't write a check to his own lawyer. Sane-ami Congress, kick the ENTIRE swamp OUT.
[1] "detain" is a softer word for the same action, like "recession" for "depression". They're imprisoned, and declared "ineligible" to keep their kids, often without trial.
I've always felt Pence is the greater of two evils. Trump is transparently sick, evil and stupid. He's in our faces daily and we know who he is. He has no religion or personal agenda to form a theocracy - unlike Pence. There are few people more dangerous than the blindly self-righteous. Once god starts giving you permission, there are no limits.
6
Question: Does the Catholic Church consider Mike Pence an apostate?
1
I think puppy-dog Pence May be a greater threat than Donald due to his ultra Christian/Conservative agenda. I think he is a diabolical Christian. Actually, I think they should both be impeached for their lies and bigotry.
2
@Truthiness:GHANDI wrote "Give me your Christ but take your Christianity! " Would be the last to defend the cynicism of a Jeffries or a Joel 0steen, more concerned with raking in dollars than in performing works of altruism, philanthropy,but do not approve of attacks on Christianity itself, which was, after all, the religion of many of those who helped to found this country."Sous entendu" in Mr. BRUNI'S essay is his intolerance of Christians and of those who oppose his ideas on gay marriage!In Mr. Bruni's eyes, that is the unpardonnable sin of Vice President Pence. Ironically,Bruni seems so reasonable, so measured in his words when he appears on CNN, yet so intemperate, unreasonable in his columns for the Times newspaper!
1
Don’t worry. Both can be impeached at the same time.
I would be willing to bet a large sum that Mueller has plenty of evidence of Pence’s involvement in the Russia conspirancy. Unlike the naive media, Mueller is not fooled by the holy roller act.
Pence is a far better actor than Trump, and has even managed to fool D’Antonio on the sincerity of his Christianity. I would not call such a person a zealot, Mother Teresa was a religious zealot.
A person such as Pence is a pathological control freak who gets his jollies by feeling superior to others, merely using religious words as a cover for his sadism. He is the sort of twisted individual that makes for a perfect lackey in a totalitarian state that uses religion as a control device, such as Saudi Arabia. There is no way America would tolerate such a person as president, at least not for long.
3
"He’s also self-infatuated. Also a bigot. Also a liar. Also cruel."
No, he's not.
Pence is one reason - another is the US Senate, which will never vote to convict - why I do not worry about Trump being impeached.
Good luck, liberals, in 2020. Keep moving to the left, and you'll lose again. (The left stream media will be wrong once again.)
The thing is, Trump is willing to blow up the world. Out of sheer stupidity and incompetence. That’s why Trump has to go. As for Pence, yes, he’s an odious right wing Christian. But he lacks Trump’s ratlike cunning for appealing to voters who substantively have no reason to support him. Pence is a second rater. He’s nothing to worry about.
2
Unlike Trump, Mother's Useless Little Husband isn't all that wily, and certainly doesn't know how to wave his hands around like a demented first-grade glee club conductor fending off a wasp attack. Doubtless a humorless, malicious zealot, he still lacks the ability to manipulate crowds of adoring dumb people the way his boss does, and so far at least, not in bed with Vladimir Putin.
A tough choice, but right now, the lesser of two enormous evils.
2
Pence will never be ELECTED president. He lacks Trump’s sheer chutzpah, ego, shamelessness, and fanatical following. As more than one pundit has observed, he is the whitest guy in America. A competent Democratic opponent would take him apart with a scalpel. And of course Pence has his own set of skeletons in the, um, closet.
2
Some random thoughts.
(!) There have been times I have been TEMPTED to wish that Mr. Pence was our President. Not for any views he might have. Oh no! Dear me, no!
Well--why?
'Cause I am THIRSTING, Mr. Bruni, for a President with some decorum. A President that knows how to BEHAVE. You know. Self-control. Good manners.
A President who is NOT--a serial adulterer--well gosh!--that'd be nice too.
(2) Mr. Trump impeached? And removed from office. Sorry, Mr. Bruni--I don't think that's in the cards. I could be wrong--and Lord knows! I'm not ROOTING for the man. But I'd be surprised.
You need a two thirds majority in the Senate to remove the President. In a Republican controlled Senate?
Do pigs fly?
(3) Face it, Mr. Bruni. Mr. Trump really IS--a demagogue. Can you think of one genuine DEMAGOGUE in our long history that made it to the White House? I can't.
That horrifying ability the man has--to rile up the base. To get those juices of hatred flowing. To elicit screams of wild-eyed approval. People jumping up and down. Waving their arms.
Mr. Pence is no demagogue, Mr. Bruni. Not him! Not a chance! The base wants to be AROUSED. RILED UP. They want RED MEAT tossed into those tiger pits.
Mr. Pence?
He'll give 'em oatmeal.
I don't know much about tigers, Mr. Bruni.
But I don't think they're partial to oatmeal.
Still. . .
. . .I could be wrong.
Maybe, Mr. Pence'll surprise me.
Maybe.
3
Cowardly dishonorable and unpatriotic military service evading Michael Richard Pence claimed to be "a Christian, a conservative and Republican in that order." No Pence claim to be human nor a man nor an American.
Pence is no Matthew 25:31-46 Christian who loved the sick, the despairing, the imprisoned, the naked, the starving, the poor and the homeless as the blessed promised and deserving of eternal divine salvation. Jesus was a left-wing socialist community organizer civil human rights activist.
Pence tied himself to the heathen hedonist pagan Donald John Trump Sr. and his dummy pet puppet master Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin. What did Pence know about conspiracy and aiding and abetting and obstruction by Trump and Putin and when did he know it?
2
Maybe Mueller intends to get Mike Pence under oath; and
this will certainly disqualify him to succeed Trump...;
Lying under oath....will be the way to get rid of both Pence and
Trump and all their foxy friends..what do you think....maybe
Ryan as well....will be called to testify about what he knew ; and
when he knew it ; and let's see how innocent these lemmings
will be when the good old US lawyers get them in front of a
grand jury....can't wait to really clean out the stinking swamp
in D.C.,,,
1
Another hit job. Why should we give this any credibility?
2
Pence and Trump reveal the two religions if America: money and religious fanaticism. A grifter and Roger Chillingsworth...
The movie There Will be Blood captured the twisted soul if this country, and know it has come to be in these two mendacious, venal, self righteous, ignorant and thoroughly vile men. Made in America indeed.
4
The question has always been what role did Pence play in the Russian conspiracy and what role he plays now in everything. I suspect a lot in all. As an evangelical he would have a reverend regard for Putin. And you would have to call him incompetent if he did not know the daily workings of the trump campaign. This one is squarely in Pence’s wheelhouse. But for that matter, look at all those meetings at GOP HQ. You cannot tell me Russia never entered the conversation. It is the first thing I would have asked. Are these people stupid? No. But they are criminal.
4
I wish the Murdochs had souls. They go low when they could go so high. Tabloid blather rules. Shame on them and their cohorts. They and a few other dispicables own America and Americans. Trump and Pence are mearly symptoms of a cancer.
1
The main thing is to get Democrats in control of the House and if possible, the Senate. Then at least there will be a check on either Trump or Pence. Both are dangerous men. I think a lot of what Trump does actually comes from Pence. He is Pence's puppet along with Putin's. Trump cares about Putin, trade, the border and his deep seated prejudices and he has fascist tendencies. His narcissistic personality disorder is dangerous. He does not seem anti-gay and I doubt he really cares about Roe vs. Wade. Those parts of his agenda seem to come from Pence. So Trump is a disaster as president and Pence would be a disaster. Plus, they didn't even win. They lost the popular vote by 3 million and don't really have a mandate. Yet Pence thinks God put him in power!
4
Exactly, God obviously wanted Hillary as President, but Satan created the Electoral College and won that battle. But David ultimately slays the Dragon. Amen.
2
Oh Lord, Protect us from your followers!
4
The thought of Pence as President makes me sick to my stomach.
4
Unfortunately, I can no longer depend on the NYT for fair reporting. Even though I agree about Pense, everything seems to be a very biased opinion like this one and I’m taking it with a grain of salt.
1
Pence is straight of central casting for head of ‘Gileade’ in the ‘handmaiden’s tale’ on Hulu. Another fake Christian who sold out the teachings of Jesus for power and money
3
Pence stood silent as thousands of children - some as young as 3 - were separated from their parents under Trump administration orders as if this were Nazi Germany. He did nothing to speak out or to stop this terror, yet still has the conceit to still think of himself as a Christian.
6
Then there's the fact that he looks like Robert Shaw in From Russia, With Love. Now that's scary.
1
The only reason we have for thinking that Pence is a Christian is that he (keeps) telling us he is.
6
Trump probably won't be reelected if he runs again, but Pence definitely wouldn't be elected if Trump were to be impeached. Trump, even though he's an idiot, somehow has a very fervent base of voters. Pence, on the other hand, is just another religious-zealot politician, and he's smeared himself with his sycophantic love for Trump, so he's not going to win. Let's try to get a Democratic controlled House and Senate, let Mueller tell us how crooked Trump is, and then impeach him.
2
I hope that the Democrats doing their homework on Mike Pense
2
I don’t believe in the the god of pence.
2
Anyone with half a brain can understand how terrifying this is.
4
Fundamentalist Christian theology supports the notion that Satan works through Christians to accomplish his evil goals on earth. If so, Pence seems to fit the bill.
3
Self-infatuated, a bigot, a liar, cruel.
Maybe, maybe not. He certainly doesn’t come off that way. He appears calm, respectful and pleasant.
Regardless, trashing this man is not the way to win back the White House.
Liberals just don’t get it.
2
Ever seen/heard the trash that Hannity, Limbaugh, and Fox try to sell every day? All this Times piece does is summarize what is the obvious to anyone who has observed Pence since the 2016 campaign began. Doesn't take an "elitist" to see/know it. Pence does not come close to representing even the majority of good Christians in America, let alone the majority of Americans.
4
@Steven
Come on! Of course we understand Pence!
He's a religious zealot who wants women to be subservient and without control over their lives, a misogynist. He's also a religious extremist, a bigot, an authoritarian and a full blown hypocrite.
Conservatives just don't get it.
They're blinded by irrational fear and hatred.
3
Looked forward to reading then read slander and liable. The Times and it’s op-ed writers have officially lost their collective minds and are unable to sustain even an extreme opposition without slander and hyperbole.
2
One word tells you all you need to know about Pence:
Hypocrite.
4
Oh, the hate from Bruni resounds.
A "bigot and a liar" he calls Pence. From the self righteous Bruni.A perfect man, himself.
Any politician that has a conception of God, a religion and is opposed to abortion is a pariah to the left. Unable, to accept that Americans have different opinions and reflect that in electing our President Trump. No respect for fellow citizens choice from progressives.
The self righteous, morally superior Bruni and his colleagues.
Yes indeed, "heaven help us". As if he believes.
2
Pence, Bannon, Kellyanne Conway and the very special Ted Cruz are all part of the Seven Mountains Dominionism cult. They believe Christians must take dominion over seven aspects of culture: family, religion, education, media, entertainment, business and government.
These people truly believe God has ordained them to take control.
4
Yes. By all means impeach Donald Trump. Pence will live with a neutered house and no prospects for re-election.
1
Old news. He's a well known anti-science good ol' boy.
He would take us back to 1950 and destroy civil rights. He's a lightweight intellectually, not comprehending separation of church and state. He has a particular hate for LGBT and understands he must sacrifice them for mankind's glory! Egads this guy was tossed out of his home state as a corrupt fool who tried to pass laws that were so prejudice-based even corporations stopped him. On your knees Mike. On your knees to your master and lord DJT for whom you've sold your soul.
4
Please Mr. Bruni, let’s get rid of the current evil in the Oval Office first, whose inexplicable supplication to our #1 adversary presents a clear, paramount danger to America. Then we can deal with Pious Pence. One unfit Fake President at a time is exhausting enough!
4
Bruni.....
Yes get rid of trump and pence and his cabinet crazies.and speakers of house and senate and entire freedom caucus too.
They are colluding with a Russian scheme.
3
Trump will not voluntarily give up being president as long as he thinks that being president protects him from legal jeopardy. He might even subvert the democratic process in order to become president for life just to legally protect himself.
5
@Alan Rice, MD
Limbaugh has been pushing spiels that support the idea of "changing" our election system. Apparently gerrymandering and voter suppression aren't enough.
3
Do look at
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xT3FrEZwcbg&t=247s
And note that Seema Verma took her oath NOT on the Bible but on the Hindu scripture the Bhagavadgita.
Just so tired of deception. There is NO evidence in this video that Pence is a bigot.
2
@Ludwig The relevant part starts at 4:15. Many New York Times might find the earlier parts "What a disaster Obamacare is" annoying and in case they are entirely irrelevant to the point I am making. My point is that Pence is supportive of Seema Verma and that the Bhagavadgita rather than the Bible is used for the swearing in.
Whether Obamacare is good, or bad, or a disaster is entirely irrelevant to the swearing in. I personally see Obamacare as a mixed good which needed improvement.
Pence is Trump without the crazy. But Pence has his own brand of crazy. Karen Pence looks like Mike Pence with longer, darker hair. Closet case!
2
Oh yes!
The Pence is another abomination of nature. Is it surprising?
Not at all.
Look at his crawling creepy entourage...ugliness, moral vacuum, a void of any thought, utter hollowness with the same subservient expression on devotees faces.
Ugliness attracts ugliness.
Dear leader and his groupies trying to change the country in their perverted ugly image.
It's hard to tell who is the worst creature of them all.
Besides, look at Jim Jordan and Kevin McCarthy the whole pack of creeps and zombies invasion in DC.
"Calling All Creeps"
The swamp can fit us all.
Tragically sad.
4
Bruni’s “thorough examination” of Pence is also a hateful fear-mongering smear job by so-called “journalists.”
I have never been a fan of Pence, but there is no point to this book or Bruni’s column other than to further inflame the already crazed Resistance.
It’s very highly unlikely that Pence will ever be President. Why waste energy hating him unless that’s all you know how to do these days?
4
Ayatollah Pence is chomping at the bit. His day may come. Not by election though.
3
WOW Frank.....”heard from college classmates”.....that’s really a reach including these “stories” as additional evidence of Mr Pence’s dangerous character. These 2 examples of Mike Pence putting people down and pushing them out is diametrically opposed to the Christian message I practice.....the God I serve and what my church preaches.....my faith pulls people in and lifts them up....or simply stated Loves ‘em.
1
Did our illegitimate president pick Pence as his running mate because he thought it was an insurance policy against his impeachment should he be selected by Putin to be America's next president? God, I only hope that our cyber experts are better than Russia's!
4
Frank,I'm quite sure that Jesus said these words somewhere, "If you stand beside a Holy Man, you get some of his holy spirits. But if you stand next to an evil man, you receive most of his evil spirits."
Likewise, our VP. Pence has acquired thousands of evil spirits by standing next to his thoroughly evil president Trump.
Mike Pence who should've watched the Nike commercial "Be like Mike" where the company tried to lead our country's youth to follow the examples of basketball legend Michael Jordan.
But instead, our vice president chose to follow the same footsteps of his president who doesn't belong to America but in a Devil's empire.
By accepting the nomination from a foul mouthed, lying, cheating man, Mr. Pence has sold his soul to the Devil himself, not to Jesus whom he says he always prays to.
Yeah right,Mike ?
Because after becoming the VP of this already great country run by his president who openly invited the Russian hackers to hack into his opponent Hillary's computers, Mike Pence openly defied his God Jesus's teaching "Thou shall not steal."
Although our spiritually compromised VP will argue that he and Trump didn't steal the election but the proof that his boss Trump scattered all over his campaign leave no doubt to Mr. Mueller and all of us on the left that they did collude with the Russians.
No matter how much Trump denies his lawyer's claim that he didn't know anything about the Trump Tower meeting in June '16 with the Russian oligarchs,we know he did.
5
Basically evangelicals made a deal with the devil AKA Trump. Trump and family can pillage the country while they in the background enact a far right Christian agenda. "When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross". Horrifying!
2
@Ann The whole Evangelical schtick is based on preaching unreality to others to prove to God that one will be great company for Him in Heaven.
2
I just read the police officer in Fort Myers Florida died of his injuries after being shot by an illegal alien from Haiti who had been arrested 25 times, and had avoided deportation for 10 years.
That my friends is why America will re-elect Trump and elect Pence afterwards.
@Average American And the fact that Florida is swimming in guns and sheriffs rationalize private shootings has nothing to do with it?
3
Just the idea of the simpering, wax figure that Mona Lisa smiles next to his liege makes my skin crawl. Pence is involved in the lying about the Russian attack. He's probably involved much more than we know. Make impeachment a package deal...both must go.
VOTE !
5
Thanks, I thought I knew already what we were in for, but having a hateful despicable so called "christian" in charge makes me want to heave.
3
Do anti-abortionists like Pence think a think a fetus can feel? Think? Call their representatives about their rights?
2
If this president is found to have gained office illegally, then his entire regime must be removed, including VP, cabinet AND Supreme Court pick!
5
@bluecedars1, Absolutely, including both SCOTUS picks...
Mike Pence you sold out to your so called religious heritage and it's beliefs and have placed your soul up for sale. The price has been cheap for the time being, but a day of reckoning will soon knock on your door so that you will be served with the consequences of your actions and there will be harsh payment.
Trumpisim is a far cry from the tenets which you once espoused for the world to see and now the world will only know you as a hollow soul destined to the flames down under.
3
@Gerry Whaley
As an early Christian said cursed is the man who gains the whole world and loses his soul.
1
The most shocking thing about this piece is Mr. Bruni’s apparently straight-faced assertion that the D’Antonio/Eisner book has a “mostly measured tone.”
3
As overwhelmed as i feel with the current president, i would rather see him voted out than impeached because of exactly that, Pence. You just have to see Pence on TV when he is right behind the president. His face and his place, behind but toward the side, silent with the patience of someone waiting for his turn but emotionally focused to just stand there where the president doesn’t see him as a threat. Pence does not move a finger without his ultimate goal to become president in the most machiavelic possible way since the dark ages. We all know (including republicans) how crooked the president is. And while the president believes he is the master of the puppet theater, the reality is he is just the puppet of Pence and his right-wing handlers.
And that is scary.
3
It seems to me that George W. Bush had similar delusions about being appointed by God Almighty. Now he quietly paints pictures which is a better use of his talents.
The holy rollers ain't got no shame! Pence has at least violated the commandment about not bearing false witness. And every time I see him with Trump, Pence gazes upon the Orangeness with a reverence that recalls Nancy Reagan who was content to stand behind her husband and reflect back his glory. Is that not a violation of commandment numero uno: " I am the Lord your God. You shall have no other gods before me?" How could a man like Pence who is so willing to violate the Word of God be his appointed soldier? Also, why is that none of these guys who profess belief and insist that the rest of us believe likewise seem to be familiar with the New Testament where the excesses of Leviticus and Deuteronomy are significantly softened?
5
Take out one and you get the other. Ask Gerald Ford.
1
If he is this bad you think he would win in 2020 and 2024? Get a grip.
1
I've said from day one that pence could be worse than trump.
i'm shocked that people would be shocked to know pence is a religious zealot.
that's as surprising as saying, 'who knew trump was a congenital liar?' well before he became potus.
pence, to me, is the type of Christian which is almost unique to the usa in per capita hypocrisy and nastiness.
3
Vice President Pence, I know Donald Trump.
and you, sir, are no Donald Trump.
No doubt Pence is the actual Manchuria candidate and trump was only the Trojan horse
5
The big difference is that Pence can't lie as convincingly as Trump so all the grandiose claims about Obamacare, the trade treaties and fixing health care are going to fall flat. He is inherently less electable. Also he has no talent for the blustering machismo that makes Trump's supporters think he can do things that no one else can.
Pence, like Trump, would also run against a Washington world where, if reality testing isn't what it should be, it is still something. As with Trump and the intelligence community, there are career government workers who will insist on fact based applications of laws (as we are seeing in the Dept of Justice despite Trump's tweets and Nunes's memos). They will also insist on fact based assessments of environmental risk, regulation of pharmaceuticals (cost is a different story, but FDA is still reliable about saying what works), transportation safety, and the various other functions of government.
Pence as President will look more like Reagan than Trump -- he will command little respect outside the world of people who care about what he "stands for," but he won't be seen as fundamentally dishonest in the way that Trump is.
1
My high school classmate called me before he cast his Indiana Electoral College vote for Trump late in 2016. Our fathers had been leaders of the Republican party in LaPorte County. We'd been corresponding, sharing my concerns about Hillary and enthusiasm for Bernie and his concerns about Trump and interest in Kasich. He'd gone for Trump at the GOP convention, impressed by the excitement at a Trump rally.
"I'll vote for Trump confident my friend and colleague Mike Pence will bring the needed expertise and thinking" he explained. In June of 2017 over dinner I asked him how Mike was doing with this. He hadn't been in direct contact with Pence and wouldn't venture a response, but in a worried voice said "we'll have to see". I'm still hoping for a response.
While it’s a tough competition, Pence is still not as bad as Trump, if nothing else because he’ll never be able to energize enough supporters to vote for him to win the presidency.
2
I have said expressed these fears since day one. Every pick Trump has named was a Pence pick--does anyone really believe Trump even heard of Kavanaugh or Gorsuch or DeVos or any of those faith-based conservatives. I've written to NYT to provide more reporting on what he is doing. Trump is a windbag. Pence is evil.
6
Thank u so much Frank thank you. I hope you convince the non-republican that this VP won’t tweet his evil thoughts if this president is impeached.
1
Just when you think our species has climbed out of the delusions of demons, witches, angels, saints, ghosts, portents, gods, we get the Taliban, ISIS, Evangelicals, Politicians at Prayer Breakfasts, and American faith led by cynical, and very wealthy, tv preachers and the morally dubious priests and bishops of the Crurch of Rome. When the fires are lite in America, you can bet the first victims will be women. God’s will after all.
5
Pence began to fall when he gave up his Catholicism, and embraced Evangelical Christianity! At least with the overwhelming majority of the Catholics, one can have reasonable dialogue, they are much more tolerant, and don't throw hail and brimstone at you! Thank G-d!!!
3
Frank, how about 8 years of Trump and 8 more of Pence? Would you then move to Italy? But be warned! God willing, Matteo Salvini will still be PM.
2
I have been amazed at the number of Christians I know ...many of whom are women .. who voted for Trump thinking God put him in the running to Make America....well we all know the story! As a Christian I am reminded of a simple Bible verse..."You Shall Know Them By Their Fruits!" From his criticism of Women...to POW's..to Gold Star Families...Immigrants...well we all know the story!From his actions in the Primaries..The Swearing in ..and his days in office...What Fruits pray tell does anyone see in this Administration of Discord and Division that don't seem rotten? Christian or not ..You Shall Know Them By Their Fruits...is simple to understand and just makes common sense !! I cannot believe to this very day that so many in this country voted for this administration! This Fruit is bad and needs to be thrown out !
4
Pence has been my argument against impeachment from the start. He is seen to be saner which makes him even more dangerous. To my way of thinking he is a tool of Satan - plus it seems to me surprising that he's smart enough to tie his shoe laces.
2
Very good. You didn't have space to note that he is also a "young earth creationist" -- and has read creationist claptrap into the congressional record
5
Yes, I AM sure I want to get rid of Trump.
3
In Pence’s “Christianity” you can praise and protect Lucifer Trump and Guccifer Putin. You can stay silent about caged living children while attacking a women’s right to choose having a child. This man is truly the Devil in a nice suit or apparently a monogrammed polo shirt - just needs the Tiki Lamps.
Mueller must get rid of him, too. Where are the good folks from Indiana who can tell us about his money laundering - probably right out of the church coffers.
4
Pence seems like a whiter, paler, sneakier and more sanctimonious version of Trump.
5
A very scary alternative indeed however he probably is relatively honest , won’t play much golf and he won’t be selling his offsprings merchandise from the Oval Office
It is due to Religious fonies like Pence that Freedom from religion is in the first amendment.
4
@sunrise
It's not freedom FROM religion; it's freedom OF religion--including no religion at all. I don't like giving religo-fascists rhetorical gifts.
Otherwise, I agree with you, wholeheartedly.
2
Sorry but as much as I share some of the liberal bias I cant even with this article.
1
Oh, just do a double impeachment.
And Republicans: You OWN these two disasters!
6
Living in the state Mike Pence reigned for four years, I can honestly say the man is a bigot and racist with a superior piety that is absolutely sickening. His IQ and ability to think out-of-the-box is extremely limited. Having Mike Pence as a president would make it an autocratic religious society (akin to Russia under Putin). His zealous objective is to get everyone to think like him, which would make it a very boring universe.
3
My comment was accidentally submitted before I was done formulating it. Anyway, President Pence as a place-holder, hopefully with a Democratic check in Congress, is vastly preferred to the madness we are currently experiencing.
Let Pence sit in the Oval Office for a while and pretend that God willed him to be there. There are no good choices at present.
How predictable! Pence is evil for exactly the opposite reasons Trump is evil! And not for nothing, but at what point did impeachment fantasizing Lefties like Frank wake up to the fact that if their dreams were realized then Pence would be President? So he must be trashed, his wife will be trashed, his Marine son will be trashed... we've seen this show before.
Mike Pence as Potus is Oliver Cromwell with a nuclear arsenal. Zealots are always dangerous, but reborn zealots are the worst.
3
Sharia law is a thing to be stopped at all costs. But the christian version is totally acceptable to these people.So much for freedom from religion.
4
If I could remove from the equation all of the potentially/allegedly illegal acts, remove the unethical and bigoted behaviours and statements, then I am left with this. I detest the ineptitude, inanity and sheer idiocy on display daily pin the Trump WH. Then I am forced to admit that the same ineptitude, inanity and idiocy I loathe are quite possibly our nations saving graces.
The thought of a more capable, less incoherent Pence led right wing theocracy is terrifying.
Chalk up my ‘preferred poison’ as Trump. (Ouch, that hurts)
2
"you’re sick and you’re not my friend anymore.”
That exactly describes my feelings towards Pence.
4
a few embroidered schmattas, a free house in a second rate location, and strictures against somebody else's sexual freedoms. all together, a cheap rate for a life insurance policy.
now, let's get down to brass tacks and monetize this puppy before our loud minority of supporters catches on to the grift.
and let us all now say, Amen!
Pence doesn't believe in evolution but does believe the universe is only 6000 years old and dinosaurs roamed the earth with people.
Pence/Haley 2024 Make America a 19th Century Again
3
No doubt about it. Pence is the Pits.
This administration reminds me so much of Richard Nixon and Spiro T. Agnew. One worse than the other. Now if we could only get rid of Trump and Pence the same way.
3
I agree with Frank. Pence is much more dangerous than Trump. He is a demagogue, a total hypocrite and a panderer. He is not as crazy as Trump, but his scheming in the service of raw prejudice against minority populations of every stripe is pure evil.
2
Yep, if you somehow get rid of Trump, we're still getting conservative embedded in courts all across America, including the highest court.
The New York Times is correct as always, Mike Pence is one of the most backward thinking, evil incarnate, woman hating, people on earth. My kind of man
1
I recently read The Darkening Age by Catherine Nixey. Her well researched account of the heavy handed theocracy that soon emerged after Constantine's conversion to Christianity, and the accompanying destruction of learning, philosophy and pluralism is terrifying. The increasing political power of the Christian right with contorted interpretations of religious freedom should be a significant concern of those who value democracy and open society. The views and actions of Mike Pence put a face to it. This is a dangerous time.
17
@Steven Beldin, Constantine convened the Nicene Council to massage the various legends about Jesus into a rationale for imperial government to replace the ancient Roman pantheon.
Trump is a dangerous buffoon. Pense is a dangerous zealot. Pick your poison.
14
Pence must think the fires in Northern California this week is the work of Satan bringing hell to those who supported HRC....Problem is Shasta County, where the fires have ravaged almost 100K acres and killed at least three people... went for Trump....So, Mr. Pence...just where is your God?
8
Pence at least does not appear interested in breaking alliances with NATO and our trade partners. Those relationships are going to take years, perhaps decades, to repair.
While on domestic policy, a Democratic Congress/Administration can reverse damage caused by lax environmental, educational, tax, and other regulations.
3
@Lisa not if the courts nullify equal protection of the law and freedom from religion.
1
Pence is the ultimate wolf in sheep's clothing.
8
@Jack Strausser, Pence makes Geroge W. Bush look like Einstein walking with Godel.
1
"'There is no way out of here,' said the joker to the thief."
Bob Dylan was right.
13
@CP
He also sang
"The enemy I see/ He wears a cloak of decency''.
3
Exactly so. That's why Democrats should slow-walk impeachment proceedings if we win the House back in November. The hearings would be a dream backdrop to the 2020 election.
3
Although this is a book that I highly welcome (the more people understand the dangers of this religious zealot, the better), I did not read anything here that I already knew and/or suspected. Pence is the ultimate tribalist who would only be a president for fundamentalist zealots, a group that makes up only about 20% of the electorate. Pence's approach: to hell with the rest - literally. His denouncement of science alone should be enough for voters to avoid this fundamentalist demon like the plague - how do you think this country became the most powerful nation in the world? Right - because of science and engineering. NOT because of politicians or church goers. I always wondered about that; do people like Pence really believe new product development grows on trees as long as they pray hard enough for it in their churches? So if Pence would turn this country into a fundamentalist christian nation, we might as well close shop and go back to Neanderthal caves. I for sure won't wait for that; THEN it will really be: "Canada; here I come" for me.
10
Let us pray . . .
1
Let us prey.
2
Mr. Trump may be many things, but he does have duende. That's the ineffable quality that separates the charismatic from everyone else. He sucks the oxygen from any room and dominates any discussion or argument Should Mr. Trump be impeached, Mr. Pence may become president, but not for long. Mr. Pence does not have duende. He's also profoundly stupid, (I hear that one nickname bestowed upon him by his House colleagues was "Mike Dense").
And think of his oft repeated refusal to be in a room with another woman (i.e: a woman to whom he's not wed). Apparently he has so little self control that he'd ravish any female with whom he comes into contact. That's why he can't be alone in a room with one.
Like many so called 'Evangelical Chistians', Mr.Pencehas succeeded in giving Christ a Bad Name...
17
@Tom Chapman - maybe it is his wife who forbids him to be alone with anyone else.....this ought to give anyone pause...why in the world would that be?.....what sort of relationship do those two have?....
For all his evil intentions, Pence is a cardboard cut-out of a politician. Look at his disastrous tenure as governor of Indiana. He jumped at the chance to be Vice-President, because he knew the people of Indiana hated his guts and would NOT re-elect him. (The people of Indiana are pretty easy-going. It takes A LOT to make them hate you.)
I don't think Trump would ever resign. His ego is too tied up in being President. If anything, I'm afraid he would declare martial law and refuse to leave office. As much as I would LOVE to see Trump impeached and removed from office, the Democrats need to accomplish two very important tasks: 1) retake control of the House in November (possible, but not a lock) and 2) get a 2/3 majority in the Senate (snowball-in-hell territory).
In the unlikely event that Trump leaves office before 2020, Pence would be nothing more than a place-holder, like Gerald Ford. He is permanently tainted by Trump. If Pence ran for President, he would certainly lose the Catholic vote, because he LEFT the Catholic Church for his wife's more evangelical church. (Pence left the Catholic Church because it wasn't conservative enough for him. Wrap your mind around that.)
The thought of Pence as President is scary, but it borders on bad science fiction. If the Orange Messiah falls, then his altar boy will fall with him.
12
Hoosiers who voted for Trump cheered when Pence was pulled out of the state to be VP. Why? Because Pence’s intellectual and policy decisions ran the gamut from A to B. Without talking points from his aides, Pence folded when interviewed by the Press, like a deer caught in the headlights, stunned that people had world views different from his own, which came across as a cold hearted, unflinching, punitive righteousness. As soon as he left IN, the General Assembly and the new governor cleaned up much of the wrong-headed, stingy mess Pence left behind. Whereas Pence was the knife, Trump was the marshmallow cloud that promised all good things, no cultural change, and the triumph of power. That’s why IN voted for him. Pence took away good things; Trump promised them under the guise of national and racial superiority. Neither man passes the test of the Sermon on the Mount.
11
I usually do not agree with Mr. Bruni, but I am in complete agreement with him today. Yes, those who oppose President Trump and wish to see him impeached should be careful what they wish for, because, in the words of Chris Daughtry, they just might get it all and some they don't want. Perhaps the opposition to President Trump should get it all; let's see how they will contend with Mike Pence. How will they concoct phony charges against him and call for his impeachment? I support President Trump, but I am not a fan of Pence, because I do not want to live in a theocracy. Thank you.
4
I don’t see how Pence could become 46 since he was elected with the same lies and Russian money as 45. His role is that of the straight man. He can claim ignorance but the record will reveal his true character, for example his lie that he didn’t know what a traitor Flynn was. It’s clear he knew about Russian interference in the election that made him vp. It reminds me of reverend moon’s concept of heavenly deception: it’s ok to lie if it is in the ‘service’ of god. If Pence is gone...who will be the next in line...Speaker of the House, Jordan, McCarthy...heaven help us!
6
"This country is on the verge of becoming a fascist theocracy." - Frank Zappa (said during the PRMC debacle/Reagan administration).
Mike Pence proves that Frank Zappa was prescient.
15
I just realized we have an ex reality show host and an ex right wing talk show host in the top two posts in this country. And we shouldn't be scared?
22
For all of this, Pence is the lesser devil.
2
This is an insightful column into Trump's Stepford Husband, the human pull string, Chatty Cathy Doll with Trump's prerecorded responses.
I knew he as a phony, liar and bigot, just didn't realize how much of a religious zealot he is, kind of scary and creepy at the same time.
Mike Pence would have felt very comfortable passing judgement on the witches of Salem or any other religious tribunal to fornicators.
I also read somewhere that when Mike Pence was young, his father would beat him with a belt if he didn't stand up when an adult entered the room....really creepy.
7
Pence is a religious zealot and he would be a terrible President . But nothing or no one can be worse than Trump . Trump is a madman . If Trump was the pilot of an airplane about to depart you would brake the door of the airplane and jump to the tarmac . Just imagine the pilot telling people in the airplane that he was a very stable genius . When D`Antonio says he prefers Trump to Pence , he makes the same mistake of the GOP politicians that think they can collaborate in the administration , trying to steer him toward more sensible positions and policies . Both underestimate how unhinged this man is . We are having a psychiatric emergency .
19
Pick your Poison, Frank. Here’s MY choice: Neither. Pence is up to his eyeballs in TrumpScams. Pastor Pence is the worst variety of “ Christian “, the zealots that are on a mission, and believe they have a direct line to GOD. Funny how what THEY want to do is always exactly what God wants. And on a personal note, glad you’ve rediscovered just how nasty, venal and soul destroying the GOP has become. Enough of the compassion and understanding pleadings. Just how much do they care about you, or me ???
Just saying.
11
"Religion" is, in many ways, possibly the most misunderstood and misinterpreted word in the English language, as well as all the other languages on the planet. And if you put back to back presidents of an ego driven individual and a religious zealot you can kiss your costitution, your freedom and yyour country goodbye.
4
Except that Pence does not have Trump's magnetism or charisma. He is just pure unvarnished disgusting. I doubt he could get the same cult-like loyalty from anyone who is not a religious extremist.
9
@Karen, we also doubted that Trump would ever be elected. And yet, there he is. Our choices: go down the road to perdition with Trump or down the flyways of perdition with Pence. Or maybe a miracle will happen (like a Democratic takeover of both chambers of congress). Maybe....
Trump must be held accountable
Who gets a pass because the criminal behind him is worded?
Worms have eaten Bruno’s mind
Did God make Donald Trump our president? No question!
Jehovah is more than angry with America, He's flood furious! He sent His Son to tell us that we must love our neighbors, yet we gush hatred for any who are not white and have since Jamestown.
It would seem that the only way to end our racism is to end us, hence, President Trump.
Making America Gray Ash is the will of God.
2
Beware the devil doth walk among us posing as the most righteous of men. How else can one explain how any woman could vote for this pedal to the metal misogynist except that he uses the powers of Lucifer to cloud their minds?
9
Trump is dangerous because he is a fool but Pence is dangerous because he is a religious zealot. Let's hope Mueller can take them both out with his investigation.
16
@reader123
That would give us Mitch McConnell...the horror show would continue. There is no light at the end of the impeachment tunnel. Vote Democrat! It's our only option.
1
We are in deep you know what at this time with these to incompetent fools running one branch of the Federal government. Our only chance to save the skin of the country is for the Democrats to take over the House and Senate in the fall election. With that they could block any more moronic foolishness that these two could try to pull on the country. One can only hope.
3
Pence is so obviously off the rails and out of touch that he will bring the Republicans agenda into starker reality than Trump. For that reason, he is a blessing to everyone. He exposes the stupidity of the religious right, the bigots, the sycophants to power because he is a caricature, a cartoon of a person.
16
Excellent warning about pence, it should be shouted from rooftops. pence is another danger to America, but we must get rid of trump ASAP. All in trump’s administration are tainted. If pence becomes president by trump’s ouster, we must then remove pence the minute he uses his unholy beliefs to further his agenda. pence has proven how unworthy he is to be in our government by his fawning over trump and his anti-gay and racist views. He is not religious, just a bigot.
10
This is the man who dutifully claims that he won’t dine alone with any woman not his wife. Consider that a lot of important influencing occurs in those one-on-one meetings we all have, and that women are, thereby, minimized in their (potential) role to be involved.
Clearly, Pence thinks women exist to be subservient to men—period. The lone exception would be deVos, and that’s only because she’s a billioanire donor who bought Pence’s vote to become a cabinet member. Disgusting doesn’t begin to describe this man.
Ladies—and the men who support them—think about that when you pull the lever next election.
9
My ten year old learning about Pence,
1) how egotistical Pence is,
2) how pro-coal Pence is, coal that causes asthma in children, retardation in fetuses, bronchitis in the elderly, heart disease from particulates, and cancer from the volatile organic compounds,
3) how racist Pence is,
4) how homophobic Pence is
5) how anti-science Pence is
proclaimed that believing in God is just an excuse to be selfish, callous towards the health of others, hateful towards people different from you, and pro-ignorance.
14
There is a unified consciousness that pervades all life. You can call that God if you want to. Using Mike Pence’s abhorrent beliefs as an excuse to deny the existence of this oneness is throwing the baby out with the bath water. I hope you are able to help your child make this distinction.
Let us not forget that this chump has a deep and perverted desire for total control over all of the bodies and all of the private lives of half of the population: All of us American Women! This force-birther is a shame and disgrace to our country's freedom, especially our religious freedom, which by law allows us to be atheists, pagans, or whever we want to be. His totally disrespectful fantasy of force-birthing- that a half-inch long blob of flesh attached to a woman's body is a "person" and has more "rights" than the actual living, breathing woman- is a clear picture of how depraved and hateful of all women he truly is.
4
Pence tries to cloak his ignorant mendacity in religion----the surest evidence you can find of hate and prejudice.
6
Careful, @Mike. Don't persecute the poor christians - which is exactly how they characterize anyone that doesn't believe exactly as they do.
Pence took it upon himself to campaign for the Republican candidate for Georgia, a man who ran ads showing a shotgun and a chainsaw, snarling that he was going to personally round up "illegal aliens" and otherwise take the state back to what he perceived as the halcyon days of the early 1960's when redneck campaigns were omnipresent in the South: the good old days of George Wallace and Lester Maddox.
Pence might be smarter than Trump. The remedy is to clean house top to bottom. Vote this November, Americans, you might be able to save the country.
7
For me there are only two religious tests. Do you do unto others as you would have them do unto you? Do you seek justice for all? Trump and Pence and every current GOP Senator and Congressman fail miserably on both counts. Any self-proclaimed religious person who fails either of these two tests is a hypocrite.
7
Simple answer: one is a dunce cap religous fanatic political hack who can be checked. The other is a soulless, nationless con man who sold his country out to a hostile power for money and adoration. I would easily impeach Trump and suffer with Pence.
4
So, what did Pence know...and when did he know it?
13
Pence knew about Flynn. He was the head of the transition team, for crying out loud! Then he lied about it. I hope Mueller brings him down.
1
In my opinion Pence is just more proof that there is no'God'.
5
Pence and his ilk are proponents of Christian sharia. Definitely frightening. Freedom of religion and freedom from religion are basic tenets of our society. Pence is nothing short of a monster in sanctimonious clothing. Beware. Trump may be a boor and a bigot, but at least he's out front.
10
Impeaching Trump is definitely worthwhile.
Impeaching Trump would put a stop to that wannabe dictator's fascist dreams. As long as he's in office, we face his daily horror. And while Pence's politics are every bit as odious, he lacks the don's florid sociopathology. Pence would be easier to rein in.
The problem is that talk of impeachment at this point is worthless happytalk . The chance of retaking both houses, amazingly, is slim. At least 63 million people who voted for trump will likely vote Republican in November. I refuse to get revved up in advance like I did two years ago.
1
Which brings us back to Russia! Everybody keeps wondering what the connection is .....RELIGION! It is really PUTIAN and PENCE! PUTIAN is a extremely observant Eastern orthodox chuch. They believe it is us “ Christians” against the Muslim hoard. Trump it was always about the money so he was an easy mark. Although becuase he is a racist, his buy in was easy. Stir in the Christian endtimers brings in Israel to the mix and well there you go.
Pence’s once said he’s Christian first, Republican second, then American.
Clearly unfit to serve Americans.
7
I'm pretty sure that Trump shares Pence's "conviction that he’s on a mission from God and a determination to mold the entire nation in the shape of his own faith." It's just that Trump thinks God is orange and has a soft spot for "knowledge" of porn stars.
7
Still waters run deep. But the silence is not wisdom but everything anti-Christ. Pence standing behind Trump endorsing Trump's madness and a smirk pasted on his face is a real psychopath who is diligently planning every single move, determined to make his cruel agenda a reality. Being Trump's VP maybe one of those earliest moves. He must cleverly has foreseen Trump's future. He makes Trump do all the dirty work and once Trump is kicked out he gets the highest Office by default. Talk of Americans caught between a rock and a hard place. And there won't be even a tweet! Pence - the snake in the grass, the silent assassin!
8
A born again Catholic evangelical is a particularly disturbing combination of woo woo....extreme brainwashing from birth where the pope is gods man on earth, to believing god speaks directly though his mate the holy spirit to any special individual, who then actually believes that any nutty idea he has in his mind, is put there by god.
9
I thought good 'Christian' does not lie, but Pence does, repeatedly.
3
Evangelicals think god sent them Trump, but it was the Russians.
5
Duh. Triple duh. They both must be driven from office. And Ryan too if in 2018.
2
I don't need Moses to go up on the mountain and bring back the Ten Commandments to know thou shalt not steal and thou shalt not kill.
And the Bible has polygamy. The Bible has slavery. And they stone a woman to death for adultery. Funny they never stone a man to death for adultery.
Not only was the Bible written by man, it was written by men.
3
Jane Mayer nailed it last year in The New Yorker. Here's the link to her devastating and unanswerable article ("President Pence," Oct. 23, 2017): https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/10/23/the-danger-of-president-pence
1
So what's new? This was obvious from the reporting before the election. Pence's self-righteousness poses as humility, the worst of all Evangelical and right-wing Christian sins.
2
Trump is a nightmare and criminal. He is controlled by Russian money - remember when he could not get bank funds Eric Trump proudly said we don’t need banks plenty of money coming in from Russia. He is a blatant racist and clearly unstable. He must removed from the White House regardless of who the VP is. Pence will be next to go because he probably knows about Russia’s involvement in getting Trump elected and the truth will bring him down as well. If not when the Mueller completes his work Trump and all his enablers will be brought down. First Trump, then Pence and all others who brought this horror of a human being to the Presidency.
10
A quickie portrait of this mean man was drawn, by him, in Brazil recently when he shouted to all Central and South Americans to stay away from the US border.
It was ugly, as if Pence channeled all those who dearly desire a shoot on sight border policy and spoke unabashedly for them.
That spectacle told me all I need to know about the America Pence reveres and the Americans who form his core base.
1
pence got to go too.
11
This is not news. You'd have to have been asleep for the past two years not to know what Mike Pence is. A slow-witted, sycophantic religious bigot is exactly what he is. But he might be easier to beat in an election than Trump. Millions of people love Trump. Nobody except Mike Pence (and maybe his family) loves Mike Pence.
3
On the other hand, Pence has zero personality and charisma. Trump is a racketeering con man with years of “marketing” experience. Pence’s religious extremism is also a turn off to more than the educated. I think he’d be defeated easily.
2
There could be some small glimmer of hope in that Pence may not have the rock solid support of the base that Trump seems to enjoy.
Whatever it is that Trump holds over his minions, Pence may not necessarily receive the same lock-step co-operation. Let's hope that Republicans aren't so enamored.
1
Citizens in Indiana, Kentucky, and Illinois as well as U.S. taxpayers are still paying Pence's bills for his failed policies, here's just one: "The collapse of (Pence family owned) Kiel Bros. Oil Co. in 2004 was widely publicized. Less known is that the state of Indiana — and, to a smaller extent, Kentucky and Illinois — are still on the hook for millions of dollars to clean up more than 85 contaminated sites across the three states, including underground tanks that leaked toxic chemicals into soil, streams and wells."
https://www.yahoo.com/news/pence-family-gas-stations-left-145445975.html
3
America is not becoming a theocracy, no matter who becomes president. And like it or not, very religious people are prominent in the Republican party and we only have two parties! There may even be some very religious people in the Democratic party. Shocking!
I don't think hysteria about religious people helps us work together as Americans. Religion is not going away. Some issues may divide us, but there is much room for cooperation.
1
Mile Pence has always given me the creeps with his abject obsequiousness to DJT. It always appears somewhat robotic and always full of false cheer. The undertones are terrifying.
Am I the only one?
10
We have two cancers in the the White House. Aggressive eradication of both needs to the be the strategy if we are to save the government. Too many people say, "Trump is bad; Pence is worse" with the implication that removing one would irrevocably result in the other remaining in office. Please do not assume that democracy is completely dead. There are still elections, not coronations, in this land
3
Mike Pence is all that and more, a despicable, vain, phony Christian. However, I am of the opinion that his electability chances are low. He was a terrible governor of conservative Indiana and the residents there couldn’t wait to get rid of him. His religiosity is cloying, over the top and code red phony. Yes, he can do terrible damage were he to replace Trump before his first term is completed, but he would be tainted from his connection to Trump’s corruption and he has no personal appeal, quite the opposite, imo. He is also pretty dim, a smooth repeater of talking points, yes, but not quick on his feet in a debate or unscripted questioning.
7
Trump shows no respect for the Bushes, but he took Bush, Sr.'s lesson to heart, and outdid him: Get a V.P. so bad that your worst enemies will pray for your survival and good health.
3
Trump, Pence, Miller, Gorka, Bannon, Page, Mnuchin, Lewandowski, Weisselberg just looking at them is difficult enough without hearing them speak or read statements. A casting director couldn't come up with a band like this for a movie.
5
actors pretend to be somebody else and know it is make believe.
this gang pretends to be themselves and can't tell the difference.
Yup. I've been saying this all along. Pence is a Commander of Gilead, a frightening propect if you're female or a less powerful male. But since it's inconceivable that Pence has not known all along what's up with Russia and the Dark Money, he's complicit and must go, too.
3
Regarding conspiracy against the United States, what did pastor pence know and when?
3
Perhaps Trump chose Pence knowing that the possibility (threat?) of Pence becoming president if Trump was removed would be enough to prevent any early exit.
Pence's piety is hypocrisy of the highest order. He would like nothing more than to turn the United States into a Christian Califate.
2
Donald Trump and Mike Pence never should have been elected. I didn't vote for them nor for Hillary who is just as dishonest and cultist as they are.
But those who think Trump and Pence would be easy to beat in 2020 and beyond miss one important fact.
The Democrats don't have anyone who can beat them. Hard left socialists and extremists today dominate the ranks of Democrats who are preparing to run for president.
None of them are electable because they are so anti-American and anti-Constitution and so willing to pull the race and religious cards.
Their extremism makes Trump and Pence look sane and honest, and they seem to be doing all they can to hand the electoral college to Trump in 2020.
Meanwhile, the fear of Pence, which I share, will hold the Trump haters at bay. Hate doesn't win elections.
Ask Hillary, John Kerry and Al Gore.
A half-century ago in the little Midwest town in which I grew up, many years before political correctness, we called them 'holy rollers.' I'll bet you remember them in your hometown, too: Oddly dressed, bible-quoting members of off-shoot, non-denominational congregations that kept to themselves, convening on Sundays in makeshift churches across the river to praise the lord, singing hymns horribly off-key through all hours of the night. I remember it like it was yesterday.
Referred to now as Christian fundamentalists, I learned from them that, surprisingly, the Catholic Church of my youth was the church of the devil. As it happened, I left the church decades ago for much better reasons than that, but the rollers just kept on rolling, and, somehow, they now occupy the highest levels of U.S. government and genuinely threaten our great democracy. We should have contained them at the river.
13
Isn’t there a way to get rid of them both?
2
We don’t t need to impeach trump and pence-we need to impeach congress.
2
So an incurable optimist could say Democrats are in a win-win situation:
-- If Trump is impeached, we rid ourselves of a terrible president.
-- If Trump is not impeached, we avoid getting an even worse president.
Somehow this winning is very discomfiting.
5
@Jim Muncy
A realist just called and said:
"That's what you call a lose-lose situation."
Reality bytes. :-(
Frank Bruni, yes Pence is an evangelical Catholic and profound homophobe, but—
This blight who calls himself Trump is truly an orange wrecking ball.
Its destructive swing must be arrested . . . must be stopped.
Even a severely conservative milquetoast Pence silently nodding on the sidelines, would be preferable.
[Calculating the damage will be full-time work for historians and assessors.]
3
Just as born again Geo W. could look into Putin's eyes and say "I looked the man in the eye. I found him to be very straightforward and trustworthy. We had a very good dialogue. I was able to get a sense of his soul; a man deeply committed to his country and the best interests of his country."
Religion blocks logic with emotion as it requires belief rather than a reality, that is how it is possible to say climate change is not driven by humans.
The bigot Pence is another hypocritical cherry picker of the Bible who picks a chosen ignorance that he is proud of rather than understand the Bible to be filled with stupidity such as bigotry toward Gays and verses like Exodus 35:2 which they carefully ignore: Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.
Republicans wax big time about states rights but want a constitutional amendment against being Gay which takes the rights of states away to make their own choices.
What this country needs is an atheist or at least agnostic president to relieve us of all the dogma influence of religion; someone who is not lead by fantasy.
Be it talking snakes, virgin births or just plain quackery, God save us from the Christian and all religious zealots.
8
Did anyone else ever see the footage where Trump was talking about how he wasn't anti gay? I cannot recall the overall context of this remark, but with Pence at his side he joked how, " If Mike was in charge he'd have them all burned at the stake." Pence, outed by his boss looked shocked. Trump knows the guy very well. PS And his wife is even worse.
5
How sad america has become! Put the country out of its misery; it is no longer deserving of respect, just pity.
#calexit - time to start over.
I always believed that Pres. Bush Sr. picked Dan Quayle as VP as a sort of insurance policy. In addition to appeasing Christian Conservatives, I believe Trump picked Pence for the same reason.
You forgot to mention two of the awful things he tried to do in IN: making it okay for business to discriminate against gays, and making it illegal to have abort a fetus with a birth defect like Down's syndrome. He only walked these back when he realized they were too politically unpopular to stick. He is truly dangerous, unless you're a Christian who believes that your own religion is the only one that matters.
3
@charles: instead of being afraid just learn and then teach other Americans how to think. The problem is that we have a population who became so smug from decades of empty rhetoric that they lack basic analytical and logical skills to understand who they are really voting for. Voting for George W Bush, Dick Cheney, Donald Trump and Mike Pence should be enough proof that we have to go back to the drawing board after we detox from the nonsense of exceptionalism and god’s favored nation.
4
Even worse, what if we impeach King Donald, and he refuses to leave?
4
No need to panic - just vote Democrat in 2018, as planned. Deny whoever is president a majority. Pence may have lined up his toadies, but he'll have a harder time of it if at least one half of Congress is Dem.
VOTE DEM November 2018. As if your life depends on it. Because it does.
8
@MC
And your country depends on it, too.
1
Let’s try to solve one problem at a time, please.
2
“Are you sure you want to get rid of Donald Trump?“ in a word, yes. And Pence would be next since it will be determined that he (like his cohort) occupied the White House via fraudulent means. They can both go.
7
To answer your question: Trump.
We already have a unfortunate NYT fueled war between centralists and liberals within the DNC and that will only help the GOP divide and conquer the independent voters who lean mostly conservative on fiscal matters and mostly liberal on the social ones. The only party that can elect Pence to the Oval Office will be the DNC by running Warren or Sanders.
1
If Trump wouldn’t be president if God didn’t want that, doesn't that mean that God wanted Barack Obama to be president?
Just asking.
11
Pence is apparently holier than thou. He defies Science and Mother Nature yet calls his wife Mother. Regarding Gay Conversion Therapy, is Mr. Pence a graduate of such a disgraceful remedy?
As an extremely out gay man, I have learned that the "Closeted" are the ones that doth protest too much. Our straight male friends are the first to provide a kiss or hug, freely, because deep inside, they know who they are, and we are absolutely no threat, simply people who love.
Can Mr. Pence say the same?
10
Time for civil war II, this time to completely clear away these power hungry self-proclaimed religious zealots and their sponsors, followers and supporters.
2
He's a supposed Catholic, but I find that very hard to believe given his behaviour or lack there of as part of this corrupt, vile, inhumane administration. It started with the muslim ban days after the inauguration and goes right up to today, when babies are still not reunited with their parents. This is not what the teachings of the RC church, or any form of worship from any faith would agree with.
He believes he's on a mission, I'd agree ~ one to help destroy anything good about the US.
5
In my opinion the best course for America is elect a Dem House majority, at least close the gap in GOP Senate majority, hold DJT accountable, DJT serves 1 single term......this avoids any nightmare scenario involving a President Pence.
3
Mr Bruni,
I think the right question is why do we have anyone as president who is a liar or a bigot, or both? People vote for Presidents in this country. The fact that we have so many millions (short of a real majority but still helped by an antiquated electoral college system de facto a majority) vote for bigots and liars tells us something very disturbing. Unless we manage to educate people properly and not with a ridiculous rhetoric involving stupid concepts such as chosen people, manifest destiny, American exceptionalism, God’s favorite nation etc., we will continue electing GW Bush, Cheney, Trump and Pence.
4
Pence would be an abomination, but he could not sustain Trumpism.
He was on his way to defeat here in Indiana until the Repubs used him as Trump's chew toy.
He is easily seen through as a transparent phoney. While many Repubs would back him, his crazed view of Christianity would not fly with most Catholics and Mainstream Protestants.
Obviously, it would all depend on the Dems choice. If they offered up a middle of the road GenXer, it would put these 4-years to rest and Pence out for missionary work in Borneo.
3
Pence would be weak and ineffective. What makes Trump is his rabid base, a base Pence would lose. Where Trump speaks loudly, Pence whispers.
My wife and lived in Indy from 2011-2014 and watched Pence lose the respect of even die hard Hoosier theocrats and Republicans. His legacy includes a horrible HIV outbreak in rural areas, the ill-fated religious freedom quagmire, refusing money for the state’s Headstart program, the culling of 45,000 African Americans from the state’s voting registry, a disastrous response to a blizzard, and the bizarre idea of starting a state owned media to push Pence propaganda.
He was so bad that Bill Oesterle, the former campaign manager for Mitch Daniels (also an intellectual lightweight who sold off the state to the highest bidder), left his position as CEO at Angie’s List to start a group of Republican businesses to fight against Pence.
When Pence was in Congress, his fellow Republicans said he was the stupidest member of the House (fellow Hoosier Jackie Walorski likely carries that distinction now), and the Republicans in Indiana felt the same way.
Pence is a Koch puppet. There’s nothing to him. Trump has charisma. Pence doesn’t. He’d also face a likely Democratic House, and quite a few Republicans who hate his guts.
If a Republican loses Indiana, he loses the country.
3
From day one on the job in this fraudulent administration our boy Mike Pence has barely been able to keep from drooling in public when standing like a statue behind or beside Trump. His zeal to be PREZ after our Trojan Horse goes down is so obvious.
Pence 'failed' to vet Flynn. That alone will make him ineligible.
5
Trump brought along a life insurance policy.
3
Trump won Indiana 56% to Clinton’s 37% A fellow Republican replaced Pence in the governor’s mansion.
That D’Antonio’s book argues there was a “...strong possibility that he [Pence] wouldn’t have won re-election....” invites skepticism about the book’s other conclusions.
1
We might not have a choice. If someone breaks the law, they need to be impeached, jailed, caught, held accountable or whatever it takes to uphold the law. If we don’t maintain the legal system that protects us all, we become a true banana republic and we are doomed. Trump absolutely must be held accountable. Legality and respect for the law must win. People like Trump and the Koch brothers and every other grifter in Washington DC and throughout the country have to realize we the people mean business when it comes to our laws. People like Pence will always be around, also. The true Pharisee in the temple so to speak.
Trump may be convicted of something. He may be brought down by his own physical health or mental instability - all are significant problems for him. The midterm elections will be a significant referendum reflecting the success of his presidency. I believe that enough people will be so sickened by his absurd performance that there will be a resounding vote against most if not all Republicans in November. I also believe the economic confusion he has created will be reflected in next quarter’s economic reports. Any guidance Putin can provide to an idiot like Trump will only serve to further destabilize our economy, which is his main objective and I think could work if Trump is not stopped soon.
While Pence is equally as bizarre, I think better-thinking people have become so motivated and organized that pushback to his policies will be significant.
2
Pence is loathsome, and yes, a religious zealot.
He was also IN CHARGE of the Trump transition. It is very hard to believe that his hands are clean.
5
Amen, yes, from the proverbial frying pan into the fire. Pence ‘s competence is limited to his incompetence
1
Imagine Jim and Tammi Baker as President and first lady or Oral Roberts or Jerry Falwell on the Supreme Court and you have a clear picture of Mike Pence as president.
There's no good reason to settle for either miscreant-Trump or Pence. As the other miscreant, John Kelly, said-get off the couch and go vote.
3
Frank, thanks for this column. This Indianapolis born Hoosier knows of Pence and his so-called "religious freedom" law that almost destroyed our convention business not to mention made some companies stay away who were considering relocating.
Pence hates Indianapolis despite the fact that it produces a huge amount of Indiana's GDP. He hates the Mexican Counsel, the Blacks, the 85,000 Latinos, 10,000 plus Burmese and so on. A cosmopolitan, open city and society makes him very nervous.
You made no mention of the fact that Pence is a member of a Democratic Roman Catholic family in Columbus, IN. He got his "Let's have a Christian caliphate" nonsense from his wife Karen. Now his brother is running for Congress in a rural district as a Trumper.
We don't have to worry about the Russians as much as we do Pence and his evangelical bible thumpers who want to impose their warped beliefs upon all of us.
4
When Trump is proven to be an illegitimate president; Pence will be illegitimate as well. Pence is complicit. Pence is a liar. When Trump is removed from office, Pence must be as well.
5
Mr Bruni,
I think the right question is why do we have to elect anyone as president who is a liar or a bigot, or both? People vote for Presidents in this country. The fact that we have so many millions (short of a real majority but still helped by an antiquated electoral college system de facto a majority) vote for bigots and liars tells us something very disturbing. Unless we manage to educate people properly and not with a ridiculous rhetoric involving stupid concepts such as chosen people, manifest destiny, American exceptionalism, God’s favorite nation etc., we will continue electing GW Bush, Cheney, Trump and Pence.
2
No surprise here. My observation is that the man is an empty suit. Devout Christians are frequently highly bigoted. Hard to reconcile with their professed religious beliefs. I personally avoid them like the plague.
3
If you want to see a skilled liar at work, review some of the early interviews mike Pence gave regarding what he knew and when about Michael Flynn. When he is queried, his eyelids subtly flutter and he smiles and gazes at the interviewer with his piercing blue eyes, and repeats “of course I wasn’t aware of this at the time...”
The interviewer lets him get away with it, but it’s very clear he is lying his silver monk’s pate off.
5
Heaven help us, indeed ! It is time for everyone, everyone to take a stand on the pernicious goals the Southern Baptist wing of American Christianity has for our country. They are outcome focused and do not care how they are achieved.
The same group that refused to accept African-Americans as equal under God's covenants for over a century and a half under the guise of a single mention in the Bible, is the same group that welcomes, welcomes the Apocalypse. Their beliefs don't comport with reason because they don't have to - they are driven with a perceived sense of martyrdom and they're willing to take everyone else with them.
There really is evil and wrong-headedness in the world and it sometimes takes on the form of a white-haired patronizing politician or an orange-haired blowhard.
1
I never - for one second - believed the cover story for Mike Flynn’s removal as National Security Advisor, i.e., that he lied to Pence about his phone collusion with Russian officials. Pence knew all about it, as it happened, you can bet your bottom dollar on it. Like Trump, Pence is a pathological liar, and just as obvious.
7
One wonders if links to Russia also contaminate Pence.
2
He is not legitimately elected either. Let’s just keep that in mind. And he’s up past his eyeballs in the illegality.
2
I totally agree. A Pence presidency would be a fake-christian, fanatic, bigoted version of one of those middle eastern Islamic theocracies that we so despise. Such an unhinged religious fanatic would easily unleash global nuclear war, as he is convinced that all the “true Christians” would be saved in the end of days.
At least with Trump the only good thing is that he never cared about religion and has never believed in any “god” (his pandering to Evangelicals is such a crass pretense that it amazes me how these people worship him), so we can hope that he won’t do something crazy on religious grounds...
4
Bruni fear not. Trump is a Fifth Avenue "Con-Man". He attracts a
crowd, entertains the media and eventually everyone catches on and will tire of him.
Pence is one of those bible thumper preachers. He appeals to a small fringe. Even Indiana was ready to set him loose. If Trump departs, his stay will be short.
3
“I’m a Christian, a Conservative and a Republican. In That Order”
Not an American. Not a husband. Not a father. Not a human being.
That tells me all I ever want to know about this fanatic.
14
Mike Pence is far worse than Donald Trump. Trump has no real beliefs except in his own superiority. Mike Pence believes he has the right to dictate morality, which is more terrifying than Trump's fundamental callowness.
Mike Pence has the absolute religious certainty that makes fundamentalism of any sort dangerous. Christian fundamentalists are as bent on destroying America as ISIS or the Taliban, only they don't see it as destruction. They see themselves as doing God's work. (So, it should be noted, do ISIS and the Taliban.) Fundamentalists assume a divine right to dictate morality to anyone who does not believe as they do.
Who would destroy America faster? It's a toss-up. I wouldn't have thought Trump capable of causing so much damage so quickly. However, Mike Pence is insidious and his beliefs abhorrent. On the one hand we have a crazy man who believes in nothing, whom we must take seriously; on the other, we have a serious man who seeks to destroy the freedoms of others.
This country was founded on religious freedom and a separation of church and state. Trump or Pence, this is not the America I believe in.
13
A sad and scary commentary that the current is better than the potential.
2
Thanks. Mr. Bruni for your latest effort to paralyze action. What do you bring to the opinion column beyond advocating paralysis? Let's play dead. We don't won't to provoke the status quo. Right?
1
So will it be the devil or the deep blue sea? To this question there is only one solution. Vote the mid-terms. We must take back the House, and preferably the Senate as well, because without one body of Congress held by Democrats we will be lost. Irretrievably so I fear.
3
Pence was the altar boy who was always trying to be holier than the priest. Regardless, after a Trump resignation/removal, I think Americans, even a significant portion of the Trump base, would be sick of Pence in about 5 minutes. The holier than thou attitude, the phony pained expression on his face as he says things like "this is first I'm hearing about that" when questioned about the latest evidence of his boss's unfitness for office, and, of course, the reality that his lies can be fact checked as easily as Trump's.
9
In other words, we're looking at Margaret Atwood's Gilead if Trump were to be impeached, and Pence takes over? It's scary, but I don't see it happening.
Evangelicals like Pence and his ilk are losing credibility by the gallon. Their hypocrisy has never been more blatant, especially to younger voters. If I were a betting woman, I would place my chips on the 35-and-under crowd to outnumber Christian crusaders at the polls going forward.
Just when you think they're going to take over and turn the United States into a theocracy, something sordid scandalizes their grand plans and they retreat. These are not pious, righteous soldiers of Jesus; they are petty opportunists who spread hatred and bigotry, and they will be defeated.
10
Policies under both men would be similar. Pence would be less embarrassing.
Precisely what I have been saying to my friends.
Reminder: trumpsky did not pick Pence. Manafort did. Why? Religiosity does not seem like an adequate calculation to explain the pick.
3
The notion of Pence service 10 years as President is frightening. It makes me wonder what the White House would be after this man's presence. Or, what White House?
1
The great thing is that God is going to give us a Democratic House and possibly even a Dem Senate in 2018, and a landslide Democratic victory for the Presidency and Congress in 2020. That will leave plenty of time afterwards for Pence, Trump, Devos et al to pray to redeem their souls. Good luck with that.
5
Perhaps Pence is Trump's insurance policy against impeachment ...Trump must've been projecting forward, knowing that his past would be gaining public exposure in a big way, thereby threatening his presidency...After all, who in their right mind would want Pence sitting in that oval office....God help us!
2
Mike Pence cannot “stand in the middle of Fifth Avenue and shoot somebody” the way Donald Trump so clearly can.
Pence is just not capable of rallying such mindless fervor the way Trump has done. Yes I know that republicans are mindless mob voters themselves right now, but Trump made them that way, not Pence. Pence may be crazier sure, but he is less dangerous, that’s what I’m saying.
So while I respect flashing the warning lights on Pence, this “Pence is even worse than Trump” argument always seems to leave out that critical detail.
3
No way do we want to impeach trump. Losing an election will be far more humiliating for him.
5
We have to choose between Trump and Pence? Stick with Trump?
This is the kind of logic that keeps victims of domestic violence frozen in life-threatening situations. Experience tells a battered woman it is a big, bad world out there if she breaks free from the devil she knows and starts over. And true, the world seems uncaring about victims of domestic violence, except for decent people who show up, seeing it as their mission to right wrongs. A woman who stays put could get hurt in the next crazed outburst by her loose cannon.
We could all get hurt in Trump’s next hissy fit and diversion to stop the exposure of his lying and cheating. Meanwhile, every day we are frozen in place, subject to his rants and bizarre behavior. Our children come to see this as normal.
Never has an occupant of the White House seemed more like the blowhard pontificating at the end of the bar. I’m thinking (praying?) Pence’s fellow Christians may become uneasy with his extremism and arrange an intervention.
Pence makes Christianity look bad in his banning of women’s reproductive rights, fearing foreigners and ostracizing gays. Christians must show up and hold his feet to the fire.
7
Tom Wolpert- this is an editorial piece, not a news report. Opinions do belong in editorial pieces. In addition, to say Pence has a disregard for science is neither baseless, vicious or insulting. It is true of the entire Trump administration in many areas, starting with climate change denial. Finally, I'm pretty sure that Bruni knows what theocracy is. You may disagree with him about everything, but why the must you insult him?
5
Or... the Mueller investigation finds collusion, Trump and Pence are both removed from office, Trump’s SCOTUS picks are removed since he was never a legitimate president, and Hillary Clinton is rightly inaugurated to fill out the rest of her term. But since she was denied her first 2 years, she gets to run two more times. Backlash against the GOPs flirtation with treason decimated the party, and a resurgent Left takes government for the next generation. As long as we’re discussing nightmare scenarios we might as well entertain dreams too, right?
4
I presume Tom Steyer's agenda is to get Pence to the presidency. Under no circumstances do I want Pence in the office of president.
2
Perhaps the agenda is this: Trump wins in 2020 (with a little help from his pal, Vlad), then before 2024 he resigns or is removed from office. Pence steps in amd is free to run AGAIN in 2024 and 2028.
We really should go back to using paper ballots.
4
About 22-years ago I enrolled to attended night classes at a "Christian" college in hopes of learning more about the different faiths while working towards my degree. At the beginning of the first class (English lit), the instructor began by having everyone standup so as to be "saved."
During the malarkey, I gathered my belongings and walked out the room/building; dropped out the next day by phone.
Pence is a scary yet concrete "vest" for Trump as was Biden for Obama; Cheney for Dubya; Gore for Clinton; whatshisname for H.W.; H.W. for Reagan; Mondale for Carter; Agnew for Nixon - we had to settle on Ford...
There's a pattern.
5
Lesser of two evils again, in this case literally. This is yet another reason to get Democrats out to vote, as Bruni has pleaded in another column. We'll know after November if democracy in this country is over.
4
Thank you for the heads up. On the repulsive meter, Pence and his faux spirituality is heads and shoulders above many and seating on Trump’s shoulders
What is truly alarming are the acolytes, domestic and and in the international stage causing or waiting to cause great harm to the people of this country and abroad: destroying the democratic system; the Middle East and causing millions of displaced refugees - many migrating to Europe. ... and as if that wasn’t enough, nefarious forces are asking for the destruction of Iran with the aid of faux power points as evidence of cataclysmic plans. Karma anyone.
2
None of this is news.
It is well past time to reel in the president's power. We should not be this afraid of a Mike Pence.
neither should we forget predessors like Martin Bormann.
1
As destructive of democracy as kleptocracy is, theocracy is more to be feared. The oxymoronic self-righteousness of the so-called 'evangelical Christian' movement deserves all the criticism and ridicule that comes its way; but what receives far too little attention is the underlying goal of destroying enlightenment democracy through the resurrection of 'Christian nationalism'. Let's be clear: Wrapping up God in the honorable symbol of the American flag is pure idolatry. So is the reduction of God to a useful tool for the concentration and accumulation of wealth. So is the manipulation of God by the whims of self-interested, self-righteous morality. It's one thing to follow a buffoonish opportunist like Trump; it's quite another to follow the calculating zealotry of the Pence crowd.
14
Yes to all that, but how much worse would his appointments and policy decisions be? Would he be a worse launch platform for divisiveness and bigotry? Would his science denial, pro gun, pro life, trickle down economics, selective and hypocritical views be any greater than Trump, or for that matter, McConnell, Ryan, Nunes, Meadows, et al? And not for nothing, would he be an international policy disgrace, an unstable global voice, and as intent on turning the country into a monarchy as Trump? Don’t think so.
1
Back in the day when Trump was first elected the New York Times ran an article asking whether or not Trump would be “more presidential“. I wrote in response that it will only get worse, it has, and then I wrote what are we left with? Someone who left Catholicism because it was too liberal and joined a fundamentalist evangelical cult. And here’s a little levity for you, if and when Mr. Pence comes into office at least we know he will not have any one on one meetings with either Prime Minister May of Britain or Chancellor Merkel of Germany since his religion precludes him meeting one on one with a member of the opposite sex.
6
America was never a Christian nation. Never! By thinking that it can is nuts. pence is dangerous, I have noted that all through his vice presidency, especially after the meeting trump and putin had and pence stood there and lied and lied.
Religion and state must be kept separate as the Founding Fathers established. These people who are trying to creep and in oftentimes, force, their way in to government cannot possibly believe in the Constitution. There are lots of people out there just like pence and frankly, if they get their way, with pence as the champion, we are back to the days of The Inquisition.
4
Yes, the sorry truth: Impeach Trump and you get Pence. Not much discussion of that in the calls for getting rid of our abominable president.
Impeachment is a bad idea. Better to vote Trump out in 2020. It restores some validity to our democratic process. And banishes Pence Surely a win-win.
4
You can easily see all of these characteristics displayed in Pence's eyes as he gazes adoringly at his beloved president. God help us indeed.
4
If Mike Pence inherits Trump's presidency according to Pence's and God's plan, we're all in for a bumpier ride than we've had since Trump descended the escalator of Trump Tower in April, 2015. Holy mackerel, folks, never has a more unqualified or ignorant veep been so raring to displace a president. But if the coming Russia Investigation puts the kibosh on Trump's campaign shenanigans -- divinely to be hoped -- then Pence won't accede to our 46th presidency. And by January, Paul Ryan will be gone with the wind without his speaker's gavel. We have no idea what will happen in the next 100 days in Washington, DC. We can't count our chickens and neither can Pence or whomever succeeds Ryan. All we can do to avoid "The Holy Terror" is vote, vote, vote in the November Mid-Terms. Vote and hope.
5
How is it possible that the American voters are so irresponsible? Should I give up on my fellow citizens?
5
Pence would immediately summon the hard right political wing of evangelical leadership to plot a massive campaign to legislate, state or federal, his vision of a theocracy. He would clearly assume God had placed him in the Presidency for that purpose, and he would know his time is limited. While Trump values his evangelical base, personally, he’s just “base”. He’s even made fun of Pence in the past for his religious views. Pence, however, is all in. If Kavanaugh is seated, the Roe, gay, voting rights, civil rights,labor rights etc. lawsuits will either be outright wins for Pence or shucked to state control. In that event, the bright red GOP states would make anyone to the left of Franklin Graham very nervous. (But hey, score one for health care. Pence might make “gay conversion therapy” covered under what’s left of the ACA.) The only thing that would get in Pence’s way is if the business community thought elements of his vision might negatively impact the bottom line. In that event he would cave, because corporate money trumps principle for political Christians. Meanwhile, actual real Christians, who realize we’re ALL sinners but are commanded to love one another and to do unto others as ye would have them do unto you, will engage and help folks, from all walks of life, as we find them. Do you think what I’ve said is all hyperbole?......do you want to find out?
2
Curious that Frank Bruni doesn't mention a central fact about Pence's religiosity. He's a convert from Catholicism to fundamentalist Protestantism. Evidently the Catholic Church isn't cruel enough, misogynistic enough, homophobic enough, racist enough, anti-science enough to sate Pence's inexhaustible appetite for oppressing, persecuting and punishing people who disagree with his religious beliefs.
I've been warning, not for months but for decades, that the biggest threat to America's democratic institutions isn't radical Islam but our own, home-grown fundamentalists, who are ruthlessly and relentlessly determined to turn the USA into a fundamentalist theocracy. If Pence becomes president, they will be well on their way to succeeding.
26
I would take Pence any day over Trump and this article confirm that this the right choice. Replacing the media savvy Trump with the dull and mediocre Pence will ensure that the Republican Party will lose it’s Trump base and be limited to the Religious base which will scare off the businesses even further.
4
If Pence can usher in overturning Roe v Wade, aka the worst Supreme Court decision ever, I can live with any other flaws he may have.
Good Article Frank,
Is it possible to have a group impeachement -- the whole line of presidential succession would be good. Trump, Pence, Ryan, Hatch, Pompeo, Munchin, Mattis, Sessions, Zinke, Purdue, Ross, Acosta, Azar, Carson, Chao, Perry, Devos, Wilke and Nielson. Replace all of those with people with human DNA and then see what happens.
5
I appreciate this enumeration of Mike Pence's many deficiencies and dogmatism. I still think he would be better than Trump. Trump is a one-off toxic mix of enormous wealth and tv celebrity, combined with an unbridled Id. Horrifying as Trump is, he has a charisma that works for him. Pence has no charisma and, even if he would conceal his agenda, he couldn't conceal his basically repugnant being. But here is the bigger question: if Trump were successfully impeached because of collusion with the Russians, shouldn't that invalidate the entire line of succession within the Republican Party. Why should Pence inherit an illegitimate presidency?
5
"One may smile and smile and be a villain."--William Shakespeare
6
Back when Pence was chosen as Trump's running mate, the general impression was that Pence was repugnant enough to be Trump's insurance against impeachment.
3
Reducing abortion is easy.
Give people birth control and sex education.
Evangelicals don't want to reduce abortion, they want to fight and feel self-righteous.
And then they vote for Republicans who give tax cuts to the rich to be paid for by those evangelicals and us and all of our children.
5
If Mike Pence inherit's Trump's presidency according to Pence's and God's plan, we're all in for a bumpier ride than we've had since Trump descended the escalator of Trump Tower in April, 2015. Holy mackerel, folks, never has a more unqualified or ignorant veep been so raring to displace a president. But if the coming Russia Investigation puts the kibosh on Trump's campaign shenanigans -- divinely to be hoped -- then Pence won't accede to our 46th presidency. And by January, Paul Ryan will be gone with the wind without his speaker's gavel. We have no idea what will happen in the next 100 days in Washington, DC. We can't count our chickens and neither can Pence or whomever succeeds Ryan. All we can do to avoid "The Holy Terror" is vote, vote, vote in the November Mid-Terms. Vote and hope.
In order to keep Trump in office, the newly elected and running Democrats should start talking about how they look forward to working with our "duly elected" President. No talk of impeachment please.
1
Pence gazes at Trump more adoringly than Nancy gazed at Ronny; I’m quite sure he practices the oath of office every morning when he shaves. Thank you, Frank, for this reminder about a dangerous man.
13
Once again, you miss an important point: Both Trump and Pence had only one vote (even while their corporate marionettes may have purchased or cajoled tens of millions of others). The real story is not about any of them. It is about us. Trump and Pence are what we are.
4
If you think Pence would be an improvement, just ponder George Carlin's one-liner about religion: "the all-time champion of false promises and exaggerated claims." Sound like Trump? Maybe, but Pence would expand that characterization exponentially.
5
But if the Mueller investigation shows that the election result was illegal, then both Pence and Trump are out. Then it is the Speaker of the House, who is next in line.
3
Pence, given the Presidency, will continue the rapprochement with Russia, because Russian is "a Christian nation" - i.e. Putin is finding the Orthodox Church a very useful ally. Europe, on the other hand, is "Godless" and "Socialist" - i.e. increasingly secular and still committed to some form of welfare state. It is not only the US whose future will be profoundly affected by an open theocrat like Pence in the White House.
8
The fact that he was not going to be re-elected in Indiana before trump selected him was a siren blaring back then for those of us who knew that. Take a good look at Indiana’s politics. If he couldn’t make it there....fill in the blank.
6
The Politics of Jesus
As Gandalf knew, humans are prone to power. Pence's Evangelicals have taken personally the directive in Genesis, "have dominion over all the Earth." They believe their Jesus will one day reign like a benevolent monarch and one would do well to go ahead and sign up on his team now. Some see no reason to wait on Jesus to take charge, why not get a head start? So they are on the job to reform humanity by the use of force, that is, through legislation backed by the police powers of the state. Of course, this is the opposite approach from the one Jesus exemplified. His statement, "My kingdom is not of this world" is actually an affront to these folks, just as it was to that early Evangelical, Judas. It is exactly because Jesus' reality is not involved in temporal political systems, that he took pains to make the fact clear. But humans are prone to power. Gandalf's response, when offered the ring of power, was to yell, "Don't tempt me, Frodo! I would seek to use the ring for good, but through me, it would do great evil."
The best response of Evangelicals to Pence or any other power broker in the political system is, "Don't tempt me!"
1
Unlike the left which is totally not on a mission to reform humanity via legislation back by the police powers of the state. I always think of laissez-faire libertarianism when I think of the hard left. You know like the Soviet Union and all those other countries who had no interest in using the power of the state to reform humanity
If you are one of those that think Pence would be a good president, you are too far gone to argue with. However, if you think he would merely be "not as bad as Trump", you should read a couple of works that show how the US might be under a hard right Xtian government. Robert Heinlein's novella "If this goes on..." takes place after a self-styled Prophet becomes president in 2012. And of course, there is Margaret Atwood's novel "The Handmaid's Tale". I wouldn't want to live in either of their realities, or Pence's for that matter.
7
"Are you sure you want to get rid of Donald Trump?"
YES.
Wait... that depends on if Mueller can pull off a two-fer. Get rid of Pence at the same time he gets rid of Trump. Pence is guilty as sin of obstruction and conspiracy, so he needs to go, too. And the last thing this country needs is a Christian Caliphate.
Of course, that puts us into a situation where we don't know who would be President then. Timing is everything in this life. If the Mueller two-fer happened before the mid-terms, then we'd have a President Ryan for at least the next 2 years. But, with Ryan retiring, and if Mueller doesn't do his thing until AFTER the mid-terms, the next speaker would assume power. Could American survive a President Jordan? Not hardly.
Gads, we really are in a terrible conundrum.
The question comes down to this - is America better off with Pence as President, or the continuing disaster of Trump?
I think that if the Democrats can gain control of at least one house of Congress, then some control over the insanity of Trump can be established. But, then again, in that situation, the Dems could control Pence in the same way, too.
So, America, which is it - Trump, the devil we know, or Pence, the other devil we know?
How do we get to neither?
6
So Pence may turn the US into a theocracy. As a Canadian, I care more about the damage Trump is doing on the world stage, given the wrecking ball he's taking to NATO. I hope Trump disappears as soon as possible, since whoever replaces him is bound to do less damage internationally.
4
Give the # of plausible scenarios in which Trump leaves the White House (after all, everyone else in his administration has), the possibility that Pence winds up in the White House looms larger. While the decorum of the office may improve, much would probably stay the same or get worse. The Kochs, for example, would literally dictate the business and energy policy agenda under a Pence presidency. There is one hypothetical scenario, however, where Pemce's succession is not assured: if it can be demonstrated that Trump gained the presidency under illegitimate means, such as a hacked vote, meaning Clinton was the rightful winner (a prospect I most certainly have not ruled out). What then?
5
@Chris "Illegitimate means" is a polite term when you consider the word "treasonous" being more apt.
This really does invalidate the 2016 election.
@Stephen Very good point, Stephen. And I certainly don't rule out treason - or its appropriateness as a description - as a genuine possibility. The difficulty, speaking hypothetically, is though it may be determined the vote was hacked, that doesn't necessarily imply we can prove Trump had knowledge of it. In other words, establishing treason would be a different matter. Regardless whether treason could be established, one would think the 2016 vote would be invalidated. My guess is more likely such a scenario would result in a constitutional crisis.
You can't make this stuff up when it comes to the American presidency. Did the voters not think about who they were voting for? I guess that they might have and this is what they wanted.
So, will four years of chaos give people pause to think before they vote for such people at the mid-term elections and in 2020? Who knows.
If Pence does become president you can be assured that school prayer, and prayer just about everywhere else, will be first and foremost on his agenda. And if you think that the current Republican plan is to turn the hands of time back, think again. Pence will further the chaos. You can see it coming.
Lord, save us from crazy people!
6
Just looking at Pence makes me hear every grinding, buzzing horror movie music that’s ever played right before the monster jumps out and eats the kid/teen/hero. I despise that man. BUT, that said, if indeed the Blue Wave occurs in November, we are good. No matter who sits in the WH, trump or this caricature of a human, they will be a lame duck. I think Dems remember how to veto/override, how laws actually get passed, and who formulates those laws. Seems we have actually read the Constitution, and understand the oath taken to uphold and protect it. I hope that after November, maybe the whole world can breathe a little easier. Pence is complicit. He was recommended to trump by Paul Manafort. We know how that’s going, don’t we? Have faith. Just not the sort Pence has.
6
One would hope that Pence would go down with Trump in the Mueller investigation if he could prove Pence was complicit in the Russian interference. But as far as Congress goes, as long as they hold the majority in both Congress and Senate, Pence is exactly who they want in the WH, so if impeachment happens, yes we get Pence, but if it can be proven that the election was in fact stolen, if we could prove that Wisconsin was stolen due to voter suppression, or get Jill Stein to admit she was put in to take away votes from Clinton, then in the fantasy land that I wish to insist does exist, we kick all the bums out and bring in a Clinton presidency and administration, with Bill as VP, or Michelle, better yet, just to destroy the right even more. Now mind you, I still believe that Atlantis existed once, so who am I to predict the impossible.
3
Here's the glaringly obvious reason why Pence is better than Trump: he would get crushed in a national election. End of debate.
4
I would much rather have Pence than Trump because although I disagree with every Pence position of which I’m aware, I don’t believe he represents an existential threat to our democracy
1
Mike Pence is, and has been from the start, Trump's best insurance policy.
4
It would be pretty bad if we got rid of Trump and wound up with Pence. The thing to do is get rid of Trump and everybody Trump brought with him. Maybe we could replace them with Clinton and her people. Then we could compare the two administrations and decide which was the better choice we were faced with in 2016.
2
This theory has been doing the rounds for a while now. I disagree with D'Antonio's conclusion while I agree that here is much to dislike and fear from a Pence succession.
But, here is the thing. Trump is an outlaw personality. He thinks rules and laws don't apply to him and he gets others to believe this. Trump's much self-ballyhooed genius is actually about his ability to sew confusion, manipulate and dominate the news, to create a meal of loaves, fishes, lies and deception and to walk as a savior upon waters that he has muddied. Trump, who is charismatic, has shown himself to be quite capable and eager to destroy our democracy and values. Nothing seems to matter more than feeding his omnivorous and insatiable appetite for self.
Pence does not have much in the way of charisma. He is the perfect ten of sycophancy, imagined superiority and smarminess. He comes off as smooth but that will only get him so far, and his fundamentalist religious values will appeal to a smaller base. Pence does not symbolize "change" and chaos the way Trump does. He is very much establishment, which is no doubt, one of the reasons he was picked. He does not have that unique wrecking ball mentality which seems to have appealed to Trump's base.
I agree, in terms of policy issues Pence is no improvement. In terms of the destruction of our republic no one is Trump's equal.
6
I trust pence as much as I trust trump; not at all.
2
Let's see...Pence was elected Governor of Indiana and Trump President of the USA. This is more a commentary on the voters than anything else. We are bombarded with more information than we can process and some of us retreat to a cocoon of comfort.
Can enough voters navigate the labyrinth of the social media and internet trolling and / or false stories, radical pundits, partisan bloggers and resist the easy paths of those pandering to their lesser selves?
Hopefully, we voters shall know the truth, and, the truth will set us free come November 2018!
This will be a bellweather test for America. Do we choose lies and deceit or do we spend the time to understand both sides and vote to uphold the values of the America by voting for those that ACTUALLY tell the truth and work to create a country that real justice, life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness are its hallmark for ALL?
I believe in America. Voters will move past the divisive rhetoric that defines our politics today.
8
At the time and certainly by now most realize why Trump choose Pence and it is frightening. Pence's racism and religious zealotry would have a solid base, but one much smaller that Trump's and if confronted by a Democrat controlled Congress, if not Senate, he would be called out. Hard to see him carrying a national election, unless of course the Democrats continue to fumble with a message and cannot produce an effective candidate.
3
As Donald Trump‘s running mate in the 2016 election, Mike Pence is every bit as tainted by Russia’s attempts to sway that election as Trump is. Both men are illegitimate and the sooner we are rid of both of them, the better for the country.
13
Distrust a zealot no matter what he is preaching. Extremism is always dangerous and it seems that Pence would create his own variant of "Shariah Law." Presently, many people seem willing to construe the Constitution to further their own ends, however it is certain that, the founding fathers forbade a national religion. Even a packed, conservative court would have to stop Pence, please God.
6
It’s easy to understand that someone who’s succeeded substantially beyond his abilities would justify his situation by evoking God’s will. Pence is that kind of guy.
2
While I Ioathe Trump and despise Pence--and have engaged in many a conversation with my daughter over who is worse--the question is legally irrelevant. If Trump has committed high crimes and misdemeanors , he should be impeached, convicted and removed from office, whoever the vice-president. Imagine a situation in which Mueller proves well beyond a reasonable doubt that Trump is a Russian agent--would you have Congress ponder whether he should be impeached because the VEEP is even worse? I think not. My hope is that having been the head of the transition, Pence himself is also up to his ears in the Russian conspiracy, and we can get rid of both of them. That will only happen if the American people rise up in November and end Republican control of Congress.
6
One has to wonder what even turned Pence from a good Catholic to a born again Christian. The answer may explain some of his attitudes and prejudices.
That said, an interesting read. Most of the time I get the impression that someone has stuck a wax figure from Mme. Tussaud’s behind Trump just for effect but it’s the quiet ones you have to watch.
7
Trump leaving would most likely be in the face of a Democrat House and/or Senate. Who would also probably do a good job of constraining Pence.
And if Pence ran in 2020, he would probably be damaged goods much in the same way as Gerald Ford was in 1976.
2
I agree with your assessment of Pence. Would war be less likely under Pence? At any rate, I would not be surprised to learn that Pence is tainted by Russia also. My fingers are crossed for the USA, and especially the rest of the world.
2
Mr. Bruni, you are absolutely right when you say, "There are problems with impeaching Donald Trump. A big one is the holy terror waiting in the wings. That would be Mike Pence, who mirrors the boss more than you realize. He’s also self-infatuated. Also a bigot. Also a liar. Also cruel." So are all their Robber Baron/radical religion brethren who have infiltrated OUR U.S. governments at all levels.
WE ARE IN A CONSTITUTIONAL CRISIS. All safeguards to OUR democratic form of governance - including OUR U. S. Supreme Court - have been taken over by the Koch brother-led hostile financial takeover of OUR Unites States of America.
These are unprecedented times and call for unprecedented action. We cannot wait for Mr. Mueller and other prosecutors to complete their investigations.
We have Five Past Presidents who, for the most part, were honestly elected by WE THE PEOPLE. Each had a hand in the frightening place OUR country is in right now. If they truly love OUR United States of America they will step up - together - put The Con Don and his Robber Baron/radical religion brethren under Citizen Arrest and take over management of OUR country - together - until WE THE PEOPLE elect Socially Conscious leaders this November and in 2020.
Please Good Gentlemen. Just Do It. NOW.
Thank you.
4
I am a Catholic. In my opinion, Pence is not a Catholic, not a Christian. He's a fanatic.
4
Pence is all that is described here, and never would have won the presidency on his own.
A one-dimensional shadow man who lurks behind Trump constantly, I still think Trump is simply too dangerous. His closeness to Putin, corruption, and mental unfitness mean that anything is on the table from nuclear war to massive trade wars to bizarre deals with Russia or other dictatorships. Every day, Trump chips away at democracy even more.
The other aspect is that Trump is a personality cult. Pence would always lack the cultists. The same racists and bigots would follow Pence but without the fervor.
Pence could not shoot someone on Fifth Avenue and not lose voters.
What a low bar we have come to.
5
True, Pence is awful; to your list I’d add hypocrite.
But in one way he’s better than Trump: no real political following, a poor performance in his home state. Slavish Trump voters might very well abandon Pence, and I can’t see Republicans in Congress cowering in fear before him as they do with Trump.
3
Pence is a cynical opportunist, gladly helping a villainous man because it puts him next in line to our highest office.
If Mike Pence really were so virtuous, how could he be a mouthpiece for an unrepentant womanizer and pathological liar?
How could Pence, in the wake of the "Access Hollywood" tape, have gone to a self-described Christian institution and assured the audience that Trump was "godly" and "a big man?"
Pence has to have smelled blood all along with Trump. It has to have dawned on him that Trump is not a sure bet for political longevity. In fact, Pence likely knows the extent of Trump's wrongdoing that has come to Mueller's and the FBI's attention.
Pence is working for his own prospects, certainly not for Jesus.
6
The Second Reckoning With Apologies to W.B.Yeats
I
We shout for we do not listen.
Ceremony and innocence have died:
Our Congress lacks all conviction,
While the worst One
Is full of shameless mendacity.
II
On the western shore the dignity of high office is soiled,
By his ignorance and vindictiveness.
Ominous laughter was heard as decorum and honesty
Morphed into blameless bag-ladies,
Whose life possessions, now fitting in a broken-down shopping cart,
Drip a vale of tears from
The tumultuous storm of sarcasm, lies and intrigue.
Agreements,
Once the product of sincere compromise by the assembled,
Are forged on slightly used tissue paper,
As the party of the second part awaits
A teetering rage from the tenant’s twittered tirades
Abrogating whatever agreement they dared thought existed.
Enemies escape sanctions while
Friends, now exiled, are mute,
Ignored by the tenant of the high office.
The swamp is replenished with reptiles,
Amoral beings incapable of sin.
III.
The thrill of impeachment looms:
For high crimes and misdemeanors permitted by the tenant—
For high crimes and misdemeanors committed by the tenant.
You say:
Surely the transfer of power is at hand.
Surely the tenant will be evicted.
But know:
The dead hear no cries.
The dead tell no lies.
The courage to act cannot be expected.
The courage to lead is a quality not perfected.
The tenant’s successor may well be worse.
And our proud proud nation may feel under a curse.
1
Pence is exactly why talk of impeachment is so stupid because it is a lose lose proposition. The end of the impeachment rainbow is not a pot of progressivism, it is a religious conservative ideologue who is more likely to get his agenda passed because he is not an impulsive child like Trump. But talk of impeachment, like attacks on Immigration and Customs Enforcement, will energize the Trump base to vote this fall, potentially derailing what should be a blue wave this November.
1
Who is worse, Trump or Pence? Wrong question, for the fact is that we've got both, and it's no accident. For decades now, predatory capitalists and Christians without conscience--"Christers", as the late Gore Vidal dubbed them--have acted as a powerful alliance which eventually came to rule the Republican Party. The business interests provided the greed, while the religious fanatics supplied the superstition, forming a perfect match between the greedy and the gullible. Let's not pretend that there is choice between the lesser of two evils. They're both dreadful and they both need to go!
7
So the fourth estate failed us on this issue also?
Great job waiting 2 years to report 5 year old gossip.
3
Would Pence sacrifice his wife and daughters to a life-threatening pregnancy? And would he then feel virtuous because he had stuck to his religious principles? Or is he a hypocrite, who would fly them to Japan for a safe abortion (as my classmates rich father did back when abortion was illegal), after he had passed laws to kill other pregnant women in that situation?
I hadn't realized he was responsible for Betsy DeVos. I had thought the Mitch McConnell was the most depraved public official around, but now I have come to think that it's Betsy DeVos.
3