So people of all kinds, white, yellow and black can all work together successfully, who knew that the American melting pot could actually work?
2
It is amazing to watch the human spirit at it`s very best; when the world is mobilizing to send divers and resources to help save these boys. It is a timely reminder that most of us are still capable of doing good deeds if the occasion calls for it. God bless those men willing to risk their lives to rescue kids they do not even know. If only the politicians in this world shared in this kind of humanity; and seek ways to HELP those who need assistance, instead of exploiting the poor and vulnerable. Then this planet might begin to rediscover our long lost humanity.
7
What is a bit unclear is why they went into the cave in the first place? I get the impression the characteristics of this cave with its seasonal flooding and underground river status were well known. Why would the coach take them in there during the rainy season. What was he thinking?
4
JW.....the cave is normally a fun and exciting place where many visitors visit on a regular basis.
The coach and their boys went sightseeing on June 23 which was completely permissible.
The sign outside the entrance warns visitors not to enter during the rainy season from July to November; they entered the cave June 23, seven days before the warning sign has greater meaning.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tham_Luang_cave_rescue#cite_note-11
https://web.archive.org/web/20180703140012/https://www.dispatchlive.co.z...
Have you never done something that didn't turn out as planned ?
10
Socrates you're correct. But there's a but. I've been to Thailand during different seasons of the year. The first time was in the month of May. At times there were heavy rains. I was on Ko Phi Phi for a couple days. The day I arrived the weather was great. The second day was non-stop rain. I think the problem is they went too far into the cave. It started raining when they got there. Maybe a ten-minute walk into the cave then turn back? I can't see myself that deep into a cave. I was in Ha Long Bay, Vietnam back in December. We took a small boat from the boat we stayed overnight then climbed up stairs into a cave. The cave was massive and impressive. But the tour is designed that visitors only spend a short time in there then exit at a souvenir stop. Thai people don't get angry fast. They smile a lot' One reason they call Thailand the Land of Smiles. If my kid were trapped in there for over two weeks I won't be smiling and neither would you.
The best of humanity is seen here, including community, diplomacy and engineering. What if we put similar efforts towards helping what many agree is the most vulnerable population on earth - the Rohingya?
2
Nice to see this as your top story but I am wondering where are the children who were sepaarted from their parents at the US border? Can we please provide the same unrelentless focus? Thank you.
4
At last, some good news.
2
Typical reckless incompetence by teenage boys gets the lead, while in Japan there are hundreds of casualties and more than a million displaced, mostly through no fault of their own. Press not exactly covering itself with glory here.
Nigel how is this typical incompetence by teenage boys? They followed their leader into the cave. If you were a Boy Scout would you chicken out and tell your leader it's too dangerous? You're dealing with a different culture that are taught to respect their elders. In Thailand kids are taught to listen and learn not to contradict teachers or raise hands to give answers or "act smart." So, you're wrong. Nothing typical here. This is a human interest story of different nationalities coming together to solve a dire problem. Japan is known to have storms. Matter of fact they sit on the rim of fire in the earthquake zones. Natural disasters are not new to them like they are not to the Philippines. The story is reported by the media are not dwelling on it. Japan is a first world country equipped to help themselves. Over the years we have had several natural disasters in the U.S. including the flooding in Houston last year, hurricane in Puerto Rico, countless tornadoes in places like Joplin, Missouri, and various other states. And all the wildfires all over California and other western states. I think we had some Australian firemen who went to fight fires out in California. But generally we have a cadre of trained people who can be called up during emergencies without having to seek help from foreign countries.
3
I do not know what tanks the divers are using. But. The tanks you show in the opening photograph are not "air"; they are pure oxygen. That would seem to be the reason that 10 hours are needed to replace them. Air tanks can be filled with a normal compressor found at all dive shops in the world (Thailand has thousands). Getting pure oxygen is a bit more difficult.
In general - while knowing how to swim is certainly recommended (eventually you come back to the surface and have to get to shore or the boat), it does not have much to do (actually nothing) with actual underwater scuba diving. I have seen dozens of kids in successful Introductory dives - most of whom do not know how to swim a stroke. An instructor holds onto their arm while they simply kick their legs like all young mammals do in the water. In any event - the crawl has zero to do with diving. Similarly the side, back, butterfly, etc. The breast stroke has something in common but not much. On his very first dive (ocean), my 8 year old son had a blast using only standard diving equipment (regulator, mask, fins, tank and weight belt). He did know how to swim crawl (completely useless underwater).
I trust the SEALS 100.0%. I do doubt though that they are telling you that the problem is because the kids don't know how to swim. That is just not true.
2
They had to halt the rescue attempt so they could replenish tanks at the drop off points? Why don't they put more tanks there to begin with? Instead of putting 1-2 tanks at each drop off point why not put 10 tanks at each drop of point? Wish someone would explain this glaring discrepancy. Baffling,
Easy: Someone has to get those 10 tanks there through the maze which possibly is ten times the effort of putting 1 tank there.
Suman Kanan died a few days ago placing air tanks and he was an experienced cave diver. Swimming these in is very dangerous work and the more they carry the faster they use their own limited air supply
2
Thank goodness 4 have already been rescued. Let's hope the forecast for heavy rain doesn't preclude a successful conclusion to the heroic efforts on scene.
I'm concerned that the remaining children and their coach are ill or less fit and may have more difficulty with the extraction. Swifter currents and weaker kids are a bad combination.
I do wonder why they don't have sufficient air tanks and competent rescuers to work around the clock when time is of the essence. I guess underwater cave rescue skills are extremely rare and the limited number of rescuers worldwide usually suffice when only one or two unfortunates need help.
Thank you for this careful insightful reporting, NY Times. The world is watching and grateful to the divers and others supporting this rescue effort. Praying for a successful rescue.
6
I’m clearly all for them being rescued but I’m still confused as to how they got so unreachable in the first place.
2
They went in the cave after soccer practice as a birthday/team building excursion. The cave was dry. While they were inside, a sudden and unexpected down pouring of rain flooded their path back out. They went deeper into the cave to escape the rising water, presumably because many of them could not swim.
11
The rains caused the cave to flood blocking their exit. The rising waters forced them to retreat deeper into the back of the cave. Hope that helps.
I wonder how many of us, in following this story, thought "If there was only something I could do", and truly meant it.
Can we take that feeling and use it to motivate us to help other children? Whether through a donation to help feed the starving, or volunteerism in our communities, or simply being sure to vote for leaders who will (at minimum) do no harm, there ARE things we can all DO.
Let's find a way to anchor the memory of how much we have cared about these young strangers in a far away land, and let that memory motivate us to simple, tangible, concrete ACTION in service towards other young strangers.
29
If you ever heard your child's heartbeat at 10 weeks I would hope we would all value life without having to establish laws to do so. That heartbeat at 10 weeks eventually received their commission as an Ensign by President Barack Obama whereupon President Obama, shaking hands stating "I am proud of you", that 10 week heartbeat reached across the President, patted him on the left shoulder and replied: "I'll make you proud of me sir."
We should value the life of all children.
1
Every person on this harrowing dive and rescue has been amazing. The organization. The ability of the Thai Navy SEALS to devise ad hoc rescue techniques for boys who can't even swim. The scout leader who took the boys into the cave and then has managed to keep them calm and hopeful.
I am awed by the accomplishments of all. What bravery. What ingenuity.
This is the best in human nature. It is such a contrast with most of the horrible actions we read about in the paper each day.
I hope very much for the safety and safe return of all who have participated. I hope the diver who died trying to help with be remembered for his own amazing contribution.
70
Amazing what people can do to reunite children with their parents under extremely difficult circumstances, when there is commitment, organization, concern and competence.
72
I wonder what the outcome would have been if either DHS or HHS had been involved in reuniting the kids with their parents...............?
4
Here in Brazil, we are making a lot of preces groups for God help them. I hope y’all are doing the same.
12
Preparation and competence and perseverance is what makes the difference, Marcony, not prayer.
God is a no-show, as usual.
55
Socrates. Why would you say something as crude as God is a no show? Really, what is the point? Let people believe what they want.
MIMA
I wish all the best to the rescuers in Thailand. Perhaps when they're done over there, they can be invited to the White House to show the administration how to reunite children with the families from which they have been separated.
71
Does everything have to be political?? Can we just hope that they get out safely? Geez, why do you feel the need to turn such a tragic event into a Political Contest.
3
This is the same news over and over! How about better reporting?!!
5
Media was asked to clear out. Operations are apparently underway to prepare for the next round of bringing kids out. I think they're waiting for that to happen.
22
The press were ordered ( asked ) to leave the site when the rescue attempt was starting up, I guess for safety reasons. That is why most likely the story is slow coming here.
2
Media asked to move out because the Thai's want exclusivity on the story for themselves - hero's saving their own. Little will be said about the Farang's planning, preparation, competence and perseverance in saving these boys.
Thanks to all who came to the rescue and who will no doubt be passed over by the Thai media.
I wonder if they are using DIVING PROPULSOR to be more quick areas that are full at water. Are they?
6
Too bulky, I think this would ultimately slow them down. They have put ropes in so where there are currents they can pull themselves along.
1
When will we humankind emerge from our dark cave and live together in harmony and peace sharing this beautiful planet? We can learn from the heroism of the rescuers who risk their lives (and in one case gave his life).
25
Most people have never tried scuba diving. Even fewer scuba regularly and have experienced diving in poor visibility and challenging conditions. Of those people, only a miniscule fraction are cave divers, an extremely specialized activity with very high risks and very specialized skills. To take kids without any scuba experience, just boggles my mind. My hats off to all those involved - a real multinational endeavour. They are true heroes and exemplify what we can achieve when we have common goals and work together to achieve them.
95
I note they are using full face masks so if they panic the won't spit out the regulator. I also wonder if they are using medication - to my mind you would want to give them a low dose of diazepam or similar to stop panic.
In confined spaces it is panic which is the killer.
They are also roping them to one diver who carries their tank. Incredibly brave, incredibly difficult diving. 5 hours to get out.. mind blowing.
6
God-speed to both the brave rescuers and the brave boys who have held out this long. Truly inspiring to see some light in this darkening world. Sad it takes this sort of incident to bring so many people together.
I'm sure Trump will inject himself into this crisis once he realizes it's stealing away his headlines.
41
What strikes me is the kindness if the Thai people, having their fields flooded with no recriminations, just glad to help. Not berating the coach, but praising him for keeping the boys alive. Americans could learn from the Thais.
161
Samantha in America lawyers would be contacting the parents of the boys.
Great turn of events!!!! Bravo to the rescue teams!!!!
42
Courage and success to all involved in this event.
35
The fate of these boys was the last thing on my mind when I went to bed last night and the first thing on my mind this morning. I have a feeling my mind will be on them again tonight and tomorrow morning. The bravery of the divers astounds me. I fervently hope the best outcome for them all.
80
Me too.
17
I am just curious as to how the four were selected.
I am sure it was not just a random decision. It obviously involves potentially life and death decision for those. So many things could have been considered -- physical strength, height weight etc., emotional maturity, willingness, age, quick learning etc.
It would be great to have some coverage if that information is publicly available, or gatherable at all.
13
I read that they brought out the children who were most in need of treatment; i.e. the weakest. Phenomenal rescue efforts to the many selfless volunteers who place the lives of these children above their own. Let us hope that everyone, including the rescuers, make it out okay.
56
They are bringing the strongest boys out first, I assume as a 'test run' for the divers. They have been working with the boys , teaching them scuba, that also would be a factor.
11
It's already been reported that they got out the weakest boys first. An Aussie doctor is with the trapped boys and the boys apparently helped decide who would be evacuated first. Here's hoping that means it's good news from hereon out.
26
when Americans are sending their hopes and prayers, which got are they praying to?
1
Whichever one they prefer. It can't hurt anything. Why even bring this up?
18
I'm praying to the Deity that created us all and that is a Deity that transcends all petty religions that think they are superior to other religions.
4
The source of it all, you all ... the great Spirit .. the beginning and the end ... that's who .
8
I wish we could use this sort of international awareness, focus, cooperation, and solution implementation in the issues that relate to the survival of thousands (or millions, or billions) of human lives.
I care for these 12 boys. But because of how our brain works, I care for these 12 more than I care for the 12,000 children now facing undernourishment/starvation in _________.
28
Agree! It seems to be human nature to empathize more with individuals, with faces and names, than with any large group of unknown people.
7
Saman Gunan, 38, a former Thai Navy SEAL, died after losing consciousness while underwater. He had been placing air tanks along the route.
Thank you, Saint Saman, for helping save lives while losing your own.
193
Not only do accolades go to the brave and selfless divers, both from Thailand and abroad, but the Thai government should be commended for what appears to be a well-planned and executed operation.
This includes the decision not to turn the rescue into a media circus, putting the full effort into saving people above all else. Compare this to when amid massive devastation from hurricane Maria in Puerto Rico last fall the Clown-in-Chief went there for a photo-op to lob paper towels to victims.
Maybe
61
I'd like to again emphasize the beauty of Thai culture as exemplified by the parents of the boys, in their darkest hours, writing a note of support to the coach. The children - who must be scared and a little bit miserable in there, writing loving notes to their parents and telling their parents not to worry. I lived in Thailand a long time ago - and always appreciated this culture of caring for the feelings of other, valuing and loving children and families and just a big emphasis on community and taking care of each other
177
Let’s pray for God help those people.
8
Good role models.
This is a cute feel good story. Its an emotional and a dramatic humanitarian event. FAR FAR away from our lives. Perfect for NYTIMES liberals that are swayed by their daily mood swings. A good example of how they cant really lead because they are tossed to and fro by current events and their feelings.
3
You don't have to be a liberal to appreciate an international team of people coming together in spirit and ingenuity to save the lives of kids trapped in a cave. I'm pretty sure people all over the world are captivated by the team that is in the process of rescuing the boys and putting their lives on the line to do so.
43
Well, I’m no liberal, but I found the story conveyed valuable information and given the fact that four kids were brought out alive by exceedingly skilled and brave people (regrettably at the cost of of the life of one of them) then yes, I feel good.
10
Patrick....perhaps you prefer the much more 'professional' near-complete abandonment of America's Puerto Rico by the Trump Circus after Hurricane Maria....about 1000 dead or more.
Strong Republican leadership and paper towels to clean up any mess.
The Drop Dead America party must warm the cockles of your shrunken heart.
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2018/jun/05/fact-checkin...
13
It's important to highlight that these boys come from rural Thai stock. For those who may not know, these are people who live hardscrabble lives, do manual labor and difficult farm work. The kids grow up leading physically active (and even dangerous) lives, climbing mountains, and yes, exploring caves and they do it every day. Of course the boys in the cave are frightened, but at the moment of truth they will have the confidence and courage to do what it takes to survive this ordeal. Just wait and see.
117
I am a swim coach at an (American) high school with a large population of refugees from Nepal, Myanmar, and elsewhere in South ASia. I have a lot of experience teaching boys in that age range, from that walk of life how to swim. You are quite right about their courage and tenacity. My experience with boys like them gives me hope for this team.
5
One can only imagine the terror felt by those 12 children trapped in the cave in Thailand.
It is probably comparable to the terror felt by the THOUSANDS of innocent children in this country who were taken from their parents and scattered to the winds by the nitwit-in-chief in the White House.
91
Yes. We need more coming together to rescue those who are suffering, including those in refugee camps in the US and other countries.
23
My thoughts exactly!! Lets care for ALL children!
10
When I was six years old, I was taken from my mother and dumped into a terrible orphanage for an entire summer. No warning, no Democratic Congressmen to checkup on my well-being, no Senate minority leader to take to the floor for 8 hours on my behalf and no idea what was going to happen to me.
I was never thirsty, I was not hungry, and I never had a fear that I could die a terrible death trapped inside some cave.
No, it is not comparable at all.
1
I'm very happy about this turn of events, but it does seem a bit premature for all this self-congratulatory talk I've been reading when the job's only about 31% complete.
6
Some of us were worried that no one would be saved. It's already a huge victory. And hopefully they're all rescued and safe.
65
It has given all of us hope. I don't see "self congratulations", but rather happiness that the plan is working - so far. 31% complete is a helluva lot better than zero. Yes, it will be wonderful when it's 100% complete, but meanwhile, let us rejoice over this initial success. Four precious children have been rescued, and chances for the rest of them look very hopeful.
45
They are not celebrating . That any of them is rescued is a miracle. Life is not a Hollywood movie, all neatly wrapped up in 2 hours.
16
I eagerly await Monday and hopefully at least four more will be out before the end of the day. Maybe all of them will be out.
As far as I know trump has not said a word about this. Shame on him.
For now the world is behind Thailand, the boys, their families, & the divers who will be bringing them out. Oh, how the world needs this gift.
Let us not forget Saman Gunan, a Thai Navy Seal, who lost his life trying to help save the boys and the coach.
I hope trump continues to ignore this. He is not fit to utter this man's name. One man is a Uniter, the other, a divider. One will stand proudly before the Creator of the Universe, the other will cower in fear and in shame.
42
Exactly right. Thank you.
17
He actually did tweet right in the middle of the first rescue, trying to take credit for the mission's success: "The U.S. is working very closely with the Government of Thailand to help get all of the children out of the cave and to safety. Very brave and talented people!" Seriously? This is an international effort. Stop trying to take credit for everything. He didn't show any interest in the two whole weeks before success was reported. He needs to butt out. He's really the epitome of bad taste.
90
Thanks Orientalflower for the info and yes, "He's really the epitome of bad taste." Nicely said.
7
Why were these boys lead into exploring these caves in the first place?
It’s dangerous at the best of times and totally nuts during monsoon season.
Outrageous.
What a careless decision for the “leader” to have made.
It’s criminal !!!!
5
Until you know the circumstances, I’d reserve judgement.
17
The leader was 25 years old and gave the kids his food and water. They went in prior to the monsoon season. He's likely the last to come out. I hope he makes it. I'm sure this will weight heavy on his heart.
38
It's easy to throw stones when sitting warm and dry in your own living room. Have you never made a mistake or misjudged? The leader is in the worst shape because he gave all of his food and water to the children. He made an honest mistake and then did everything he could to rectify it.
57
Are Elon Musk's escape pod / submarine or inflatable tube ideas under consideration for rescuing any of the others? As of this evening, Musk is tweeting videos of a test simulation in a swimming pool and claiming to have built a replica of the cave path as a test course.
3
Assuming the boys are being brought out now because it was felt they would be in imminent danger if they were not, then I hope Musk's plan is *not* being considered at the moment for the other 9. His was a plan and vehicle that require far more testing than he claims to have done so far. It was an interesting idea when I thought they had time on their side (as was drilling, as was looking for other routes out).
17
The related article, "Inside the Thai Cave: How Rescuers
Are Trying to Save a Soccer Team" mentions "oxygen tanks." This should be corrected to read "air tanks."
I am following this story closely. If only the international attention would increase the probability of all the children, divers, and the coach, making it out unharmed.
14
I'm honestly wondering, why this is the main news, while at the same time hundreds of people are in danger because of floods in Japan? This isn't meant as a criticism, just a question.
5
I suspect it is because people have been following this story since before the flooding in Japan became an issue and now that the nailbiting rescue effort is finally under way, people are investing in hearing what has happened. Seriously, it doesn't have to be a competition. It's not exactly difficult to find the news out of Japan, either.
27
It most certainly rates higher than that of the next SCJ.
The ABC news spent 15 minutes tonight on it-the cave.
5
I think it is getting a lot of attention because it is a single story, about a single small group in a single circumstance. It has the narrative arc of a movie, and we still don't know how it ends. It's like candy to our brains, even as it is terrifying and possibly tragic. We could argue that one billion humans need to be rescued from extreme poverty and that is certainly a bigger story. But we can't do it in 20 days, and our minds can't grasp a single narrative. I think the Japan thing feels like an "ordinary" natural disaster compared to the boys. Plus - children. soccer players. To this, we can relate.
24
How do they choose which boys get the first chance at rescue? It seems that any early failure could jeopardize the whole mission, affecting the courage and resolve of all; and that taking out the strongest first would give them a chance to test the operation with least risk; on the other hand, the weakest need help fastest - and two of the initial four were weakened. Just wondering how they possibly decide such a matter, and wishing them every success and blessing for all to be saved.
17
The boys chose.
8
I read that the first round were the stronger boys because it was so experimental. Now, that they know it's doable, they can take the weaker ones.
8
I just hope Trump doesn't somehow try to insert himself into this precarious rescue. Two Brits found the boys. A Thai diver has already lost his life. Americans may be part of the effort but Trump needs to stay quiet.
68
Trump wouldn't need scuba. Like the bullfrog in Aesop's Tales, he'd simply puff himself up with hot air, hold his breath, swim through the flooded caves, and rescue the boys one by one. Remember, unlike John McCain, Trump is a fearless war hero.
84
He already has. He tweeted about the US government working with the Thai government - his first tweet on the matter - the moment success was reported. I was following the rescue story and was so disgusted when he tweeted the above about an hour after the evacuation of the first two boys were reported, in the middle of the rescue op. Always trying to claim credit with his grubby little hands. Gross.
51
I don't know if Trump "will try to insert himself into this" but you have already cynically managed to insert Trump into it for cheap political brownie points.
9
I don't understand why this article tops your electronic front page instead of more reporting about the THOUSANDS of children separated from their parents by our own government, who have been essentially disappeared. I understand this is good for whatever one wants to call it, "clickbait", some dozen or so kids trapped in a cave against a rainy season's ticking clock, but the New York Times is not cable TV news, and there are literally thousands of children that the government has taken from their families in this very country. It's not that we can't focus on multiple news items, but your priorities are troubling to this reader.
64
I believe it's an above-the-fold story because of the human drama element, the suspense, and the international involvement behind the rescue. I think those types of top stories aren't calculated by the editors based solely on numbers of people affected, but based on immediacy and possibly technological significance, like with the space shuttle disasters involving Challenger and Columbia.
1
I agree with Julia. Since Trump announced that families should not be separated, reporting on the administrations actions have been given less coverage, although it is clear that the agencies involved are doing their best to make reunification as difficult as possible. I can only hope that there is more prominent coverage of the impending hearings on their delaying tactics.
7
Children separated at the border are important. I want to know why we don't focus on the separation of children in the probate courts that a fertile environment for parental alienation. There could be more coverage of lots of child-related issues, like the race-based disparity in deaths of black infants. Why doesn't this get front page coverage? The point is, children are children, and all stories are, ultimately, about them. This cave-rescue story in some ways is, I think, a necessary counterpoint to the border story and perhaps a reminder that we overlook the often invisible vulnerability of youth. Clearly we identify with it, however, and if the coverage causes us to remember to value young lives, I say keep it up!
13
World over, we wait for miracles in Thailand.
We are grateful for all involved. We pray for the safety and lives of the brave rescuers. We pray for the strength of those that need rescue, that they will allow themselves to be held in the arms of experience and skill, that they will be calmed and trusting. We pray for all families and friends who are anxious and fearful on the other side of the cave, that they will have their loved ones back soon. We pray for leadership in the countries that send these rescuers to fulfill their duties of the heart. And we pray for all those emergency workers and medical staff that will care for these thirteen so their lives will once again be full and complete.
Thailand, we are here for you. We pray for your peace in this rescue mission. Peace be with you all.
62
Thank you for your well-said post.
11
A key reason is that many mothers in the region believe that teaching their children to swim will increase the risk of them drowning,
Wow, tough love. Good luck uniting a world like this as one.
6
I lived in Asia for three years. Water is not in swimming pools.
When the monsoons bring torrential rain, it is in ditches, across roads, villages are isolated, rivers are dangerous. (Look at Japan right now in crisis from the monsoons.) Mudslides are common occurrences. It's like telling kids not to play with matches. "Stay away from the water!" If you haven't lived through numerous monsoon seasons, you can't imagine the deluge. It's not like taking a child to swimming lessons in a pool.
5
In the middle of so much that’s going wrong in the world, the rescue of the Thai boys and their coach shows what can be achieved against seemingly insurmountable odds, when people of all nations work together toward a common goal.
196
That's because the basic principle for a first responder of any nation is putting another before yourself.
A lesson sorely missed among world leaders.
31
The cave complex would have been difficult to navigate on foot, never mind under water. As a diver myself, I can’t imagine zero visibility that no light can penetrate, current pulling at your mask and trying to sweep you away, and the knowledge that you you cannot abort the dive by swimming to the surface. Brave boys and rescuers. The news of the successful extraction of the first four will reach the boys remaining in the cave and give them strength. Godspeed
117
Appreciate your post. The challenges seem immense; I'm glad the divers are inserting "guidelines" to help them traverse the path to and from the location.
The ropes are there first of all, for the rescue divers. To help them get back (better than bread crumbs). The divers can pull themselves along instead of having to swim which is especially important against currents. Also - it is dark in caves - the rope is a guide that does not absolutely require sight. If the diver has a child with him, the ropes still help of course.