Mayor de Blasio’s recent actions regarding the elite schools will have a de minimis effect on the minority children in New York City -he has already failed them for every year he’s been in office -The Comptroller, Scott Stringer, issued a scathing report, denouncing the Administrations claims of improving high school graduation rates. Specifically, a new analysis by the Office of Comptroller, issued in May, 2018, reveals that the graduation gap in city high schools actually widened in recent years since de Blasio took office. Over this period, while high schools in the highest performing quintile saw their graduation rates jump from 93 percent to 97 percent, those in the lowest quintile experienced an 11 drop, from 61 percent to 50 percent. In all, graduation rates are actually declining at 110 city high schools, which together educate about one-fifth of New York City public high school students. These schools are most heavily concentrated in school districts in the Bronx, and students at these schools are disproportionately Black and Hispanic.
10
Don't make it easier to get in. Make it possible to get in. By the time so-called elite kids get to 8th grade, they have had 13-14 years of enrichment by parents who value education. They don't have to be rich, just diligent.
20
As a graduate of Lowell High in San Francisco, one of these allegedly elite high schools, I would like to point out that 40% of the student body is on free or reduced lunch. I don't know where students of such families with limited means would get 14 years of enrichment, now that such parents need to work 2 jobs and can barely afford housing.
8
Why not make efforts to improve all the schools than playing rigged musical chairs against Asians?
24
The narrative isn't/shouldn't be that there are "too many Asians" in elite high schools but rather, that in order get into those schools students must either attend an affluent, well resourced school or pay thousands for private test exams - something most kids, INCLUDING ASIAN KIDS, CANNOT afford to pay for and hence don't get a fair chance to attend.
BTW. A police officer patrolling a housing complex with his gun drawn despite no clear reason or present danger and ends up killing somebody is the epitome of recklessness. The racial hierarchy was exploited to the full with the narrative that this tattooed up black man's life wasn't worth this "model minority" cop's life being ruined by spending a day in jail.
9
Sh says: "...in order get into those schools students must either attend an affluent, well resourced school or pay thousands for private test exams...."
That's just not true. While those things certainly help, there are many kids at the specialized high schools who don't fit into either category. Also, one needs to look at how kids get into (and why they're attending) "affluent, well resourced" middle schools in the first place. And even attending one of those middle schools is far from an automatic ticket into the specialized high schools or any other top high school in the city.
7
@DA according to a report on June 29th in the NYT by Jasmine Lee, it seems to be the case for the majority of students that are accepted into elite high schools, that's not even including the private test prep students. But to your point, it also shows how mediocre the educational resources are in many majority minority attended middle schools.
Let's dismiss race for a sec. What is the percentage of students accepted into elite schools, who either didn't attend a well resourced middle school or did not receive expensive private test prep? Both shouldn't be key requirements to attend a PUBLIC school.
My Asian American friends of New York: Don't be discouraged and outraged by de Blasio and Andrew Cuomo's discriminatory decisions. I am not a resident of New York at the present time but my first year college was in New York city back in 1950. Many of my friends children are attending schools in NYC. If Mr. Bloomberg is still the mayor of NYC this kind of decision would never going to occur. Mayor de Blasio and Governor Cuomo are not going to be the permanent leaders of NYC., temporary set back would help all Asian Americans more on the united front. Hopefully someday an Asian American could be a mayor of New York. Obama became the first black American president of the US. Grace Meng has been one of the most effective members of Congress from NY in my memory. Asian American students are outstanding performers and they do not afraid any challenges. None of my friends in NY have told me that de Blasio and Cuomo are great leaders or great friends of Asian Americans yet. I have never seen that they have participated in any Asian American hosted community activities yet.
7
The real problem is that there aren't enough specialized schools where children can get the advanced level of education they deserve. This issue shouldn't be about ethnicity at all. It's about tackling the overall quality and availability of education for all of our children.
10
"...[The mayor] was surrounded by dozens of enthusiastic students, union leaders and elected officials, amid signs proclaiming “All Kids Deserve a Chance.”
Why is it that virtually everyone reading this article, and the parents of Asian students, see how unfair the mayor's actions are--but no one else does?
How can people watch often poor Asian kids get thrown under the bus and cheer?
28
And it's not just Asian kids. There will be other kids who will miss out on a chance to attend one of the specialized schools because they are not in the top 7% of their particular middle school, plus the kids who go to a private middle school (religious or independent), and kids who are just moving to the city. All of these students are taxpaying residents of NYC and currently have the same opportunity to try to get into these schools by being measured by the same ruler. DeBlasio's system will destroy that and therefore change what these schools represent. Changing the criteria may lessen the respect that others have for these students later in life; there are many minority graduates who talk about how peers in college or grad school wonder if they got in for non-academic reasons, but when they hear that the student went to a SHS, any doubts about their qualifications go away.
In part, the test was put into law to avoid having Stuyvesant, Bronx Science and Brooklyn Tech be subject to whims of politics or agendas at the Board of Education. The State saw the value of having these schools be among the elite in the country and that the elite status comes from the quality of the students, not the teachers or facilities, which are similar to those in many other NYC schools. Instead of needlessly changing things, DeBlasio should take his 7% idea and make new schools where those who don't want to attend a SHS but still want to work with other top students, can thrive.
17
It makes no sense to me how 'Asian American' can be considered as an ethnic group. Someone from Pakistan or Sri Lanka has about as much in common (culturally or otherwise) with someone from Mongolia or Taiwan as Mayor DeBlasio does. I mean, we're talking about the world's largest landmass, with half the world's people, and by far the greatest diversity of languages, cuisines, religions, etc., as if it's a monolithic thing. So no wonder there is wide political disagreement. 'East' or 'South Asian' makes a little more sense but even that is troublesome.
16
As a corollary, and in the same line of reasoning, please explain how both Hispanic and Black can be considered ethnic groups, and Asian not.
23
As long as education remains excessively socially stratified, no admission process will be based on genuine merit.The wealthy would never allow a mere test to determine their children's educational fates. Thirty percent of the incoming class at Harvard is made up of legacies. That's the real reason your extra-special kid didn't get into the ivy leagues.
8
Easy to punish the Asian kids who with their parents sacrifice enjoyments to gain a foothold in today's uber competitive society. Likewise give students and parents of other ethnic groups an unearned boost on student achievement.
In this misguided attempt to legislate exceptions (note the failure of open admission to the CUNY many years ago) expect that those who cannot make the "grade" will not last very long.
How about giving Asian kids a 15% share of athletic roster slots even if their ability is not at that level. In sports a meritocracy rules, not so in academics.
27
What about all those Asian kids that can't afford to pay for test prep to attend a PUBLIC school.
3
Why doesn't Richard Beury, Deputy Mayor For Strategic Policy Initiative, say something?
He was in my year in Stuyvesant sat behind me.
He didn't need any help to get in.
10
I thought "Liberals" were the party of inclusion ??? I thought liberals worked cautiously not to hurt anyone's feelings..?? Hypocrites! Especially de Blasio and his minions.. !
25
Can anyone shed some light on Asian-Americans' participation in civic and national life, i.e. social services, military, police, fire services, philanthropy?
6
If it looks good on their resume, they’re probably participating.
5
De Blasio’s proposal is much like Texas' Top 10-Percent Rule that creates diversity on Texas college campuses by guaranteeing admission at state universities to any student who finishes in the top 10 percent of his or her high school graduating class. However, the University of Texas at Austin was unwilling to give up racial and ethnic preferences altogether. About 85 percent of its students are admitted under the Top 10-Percent Rule while about 15 percent are admitted from a supplemental pool composed mostly of applicants who finished just outside the top 10 percent of their class at highly competitive high schools. The university awards racial and ethnic preference points to Hispanic and African American students in the supplemental pool.
2
I am not a fan of affirmative action, but I also believe that the Asian focus on college admission just being on grades and test scores is also too narrow. Diversity is more than just race. It is the various sports kids, the drama kids, the music kids etc. Asian students in general score very high on academic issues but, and I know this is a bit of a generalization, many tend to be involved in similar outside activities - piano, violin, tennis, golf etc. Hence a lot of Asian applicants tend to be from very similar molds and do not bring the diverse backgrounds other students can learn from.
5
Of course the asian vote, just like the black vote, is taken for granted by the Democrats. The Democrats know these constituencies won’t vote Republican.
Meanwhile, our descent into tribalism deepens.
18
I am of European-American descent (first generation American). My parents instilled hard work in academics and admonished that the academic world is competitive.
I have succeeded well. I am not troubled by a preponderance of the vague category of "Asians" (originating or descending from the world's largest continent, embracing culturally highly diverse populations) competing against other ethnic groups for restricted seats in advanced education. Competition will strengthen our country.
19
What I get from the new Chancellor's comments about Asian families is that he does not represent their interests. He seems to care most about the interests of African Americans and Latinos. De Blasio should find a new Chancellor who represents the interests of every student in the city rather than one who puts down Asian and white families. By the way, as an Asian-American, I found Carranza's comments about no one ethnic group owning admissions to specialized schools to be so offensive and infuriating. And the fact that he doubled-down on this and put it on Asians for "choosing" to be offended over his comment. Can you imagine if he had insulted African-Americans and then said it was their problem if they chose to be offended? I agree with NoraKrieger that the mayor would have asked him to resign. But because he made the comments about Asians, Carranza was given a pass. Carranza and de Blasio are showing Asians so much disrespect and this will not be quickly forgotten by the Asian community.
55
Is the takeaway here that complaining - something, to make broad, sweeping generalizations, most immigrant Asian cultures greatly frown upon and something that other groups in America have few qualms doing - comes with rewards?
Complain it is then: most Asian-Americans tend to be shafted in many aspects of life in the US; whether in secondary education admissions (see Harvard lawsuit), careers (great as worker bees, effective nonstarter as top management... and forget about Hollywood), romantically, in some cases (Asian men in particular appear often overlooked as romantic partners), and now in primary education as well. Throughout all of this, or perhaps because of all of this, the notion of the model minority prevails.
I was the subject of much racism growing up through the public school system in the Midwest. My fifth grade teacher in a predominantly white, affluent school district I attended (my parents gave up everything to afford a small apartment rental so I could attend the "best" public school in the area) asked why as a girl born in one-child China I wasn't aborted. Rather than being outraged at the time, or even offended, I was simply surprised. Being offended was a luxury that I as an immigrant didn't have.
Asian Americans have largely been raised to be hardworking, grateful, and uncomplaining, and to focus on collectivism rather than individuality.
Is now the time for Asian Americans to finally speak up and demand their full rights as an Americans?
49
As Patrick Buchanan warned decades ago, if we continue with massive immigration of minority ethnic groups, America will become balkanized with special interests seeking narrow needs. That is exactly what is happening now. Exhibit one: this article about Asians in New York City. We really do not need this.
12
Affirmative Action against a minority.
That's a new one.
What will Progressives think of next.
29
Richard Carranza is clearly a racist who seeks to destroy the jewel of the NYC school system. He and DeBlasio will eventually make the "elite" schools "average." Over time, as the quality of students is degraded, colleges will no longer view these schools as elite, and students of these schools will be considered as average.
46
One of my children who is a resident of Houston was overjoyed when Richard Carranza moved to NY. She said that he was destroying the school system there and would have negatively effected my Guatemalan born Grandson's school which is 1/3 black, 1/3 Hispanic and 1/3 white.
18
Education has historically been highly regarded in Asian culture. Hard working Asians here in Philadelphia move out to the New Jersey suburbs once they have the means, and place their children in a better school system. New York should expect an exodous of middle class Asians if they deny them the education they deserve.
26
I was so shocked by the disrespect given to the Asian American community by the new Chancellor as well as the Mayor. As a community, they have been left out of meetings and discussions as though they are a majority group in NYC. I was most shocked by Mr. Carranza's comments that completely dismissed the feelings of Asian Americans who are strongly pro-education but who are not all wealthy, and according to the article are on the whole quite poor. They are a minority in this city. The fact that the children of Asian American families tend to do well in school is a testament to their families emphasis on the importance of education to do well in NYC and society as a whole.
If the comments of Mr. Carranza were made about any other group in NYC (Black or Hispanic), the mayor would have asked him to resign but since it is Asian Americans, it seems to be okay. To be so dismissive of Asian American families and accuse them of thinking they own the schools, rebutting them by saying the taxpayers own the schools (of which, of course, they are taxpayers) is the height of prejudice and disrespect.
I think that using multiple measures is a good way to deal with the issue of admission, but that does not mean you establish quotas; instead, you use grades, tests, and other "fair" (non-subjective) measures to make decisions. Doing that should lead to more diversity but if it doesn't, it is not the fault of the Asian American students who are admitted.
60
"To be so dismissive of Asian American families and accuse them of thinking they own the schools, rebutting them by saying the taxpayers own the schools (of which, of course, they are taxpayers) is the height of prejudice and disrespect."
It goes further. The actual issue is whether or not to base admissions upon a test. Carranza apparently believes that using a test is the equivalent of favoring Asians. While what this reveals about his beliefs regarding Asians is interesting, what is more disturbing is what it reveals he believes about everyone else.
...Andrew
25
De Blasio politics is converting NYC's Asian Americans into Trump supporters.
25
All non whites are being left out of all governmental decisions right down to who can go to pre-Head Start. Race is no longer a problem when applying to colleges, universities, high schools, jobs, etc., because there is now only white to be considered. Everyone else will have to lie & then hope not to be interviewed in person. Non-Whites & Non-white poor Felons have no rights in this country. Rich white men with felony records can vote & run for election in this country but a black or hispanic man with a felony record can just go back to jail. He can't vote in most states let alone run for public office. No education will now be all white.
3
Time for the Asian community to join the independent voters .
Democrats just use you.
Look at the Supreme courts picks when the Democrats were in power for 16 years , not one Asian American was even considered.
Harvard discriminating Asian American a lefty democrat leaning university .
18
I’m surprised that nobody has mentioned the persistent myth that is spread around NYC that the specialized high schools only admit whites and Asians.
I have heard a number of black and Latino students say that they didn’t bother taking the test because they wouldn’t be admitted even if they did well. I also know of some NYC teachers
8
hypocritical govt -- supporting immigrant rights but not the immigrant's right to achieve some small semblance of success via the SHSAT. NYC should be proud of its citizens ability and desire to strive and achieve, instead of recasting it as a 0 sum amongst minorities.
9
Such old news. The fact is anti Asian bigotry is tacitly winked at in many places. The liberal entertainment industry. It is not permitted to allow an Asian man to portray a romantic lead, unless it is specifically about Asians. If a part is for an American, it will not be cast with an actor with Asian roots. Sure there is some tokenism but in general, Americans will not accept an Asian representing American values. The liberal LGBTQ community. How many Asian men have been told, “not into fats, fems, or Asians. And now the students applying to Harvard who all have Asian personality defect disorder. Even when people try to be accommodating we hear things like, “I know you’re American but where are you really from?” “I heard Chinese people love almond.” “I can always tell the difference between Chinese and Japanese.”
Finally, if Trump gets angry at China for trade war issues, look out for anti- Asian bias crimes to increase. Not anti Chinese, anti Asian, because besides those who have the gift for differential identification, not many others know that there are differences.
28
Is there a record of how the Asians in the elite schools rate in free/reduced lunch qualification relative to other groups? That would answer the question of whether it is rich kids learning the test getting into the schools disproportionately.
7
Majority of Asians in Stuyvesant get free or reduced lunch.
15
Not sure about high school but all elementary school students regardless of economic factors get free lunch in all NYC public schools.
1
De Blasio is just angered that his kid could not get into Science or another great New York school through merit and intelligence.
15
I don't think becoming Republican is the answer to DeBlasio's bad policies toward Asians, as I do not believe Republicans care for Asians much, either.
But perhaps he can be primaried out next time he runs for mayor, and by someone who won't ignore 1/7th the population of NYC.
19
What if this is so uncomfortable because it reminds us there might be IQ differences between races with east Asians on top? What kind of society would we build if this information were true? Would we force equality on them or allow them to flourish?
17
There is no "might" about it. There are differences in the average IQ of many groups in the US. Wouldn't you be surprised if there weren't? Now, the question is whether the IQ differences are genetic -- or if there is something else going on. It could be that Asians aren't on avg smarter than other groups if you look at the entire global population, but selective immigration to the US might mean that Asians with higher IQ are more likely to come to the US.
Or maybe not. Maybe IQ differences are environmental. However, studies have yet to find environmental factors that play an important role.
7
Nobody who has read "The Bell Curve" is the least bit surprised by this. Group IQ differences are real, and can't be fixed by social engineering. The only wonder is that Leftists cling to the silly notion of the "blank slate."
11
one reason why Asians do not pull their weight is because Asian is not a group, really. Indians dont associate themselves with Chinese, or Indonesians, or.. so they can be ignored, they are too fragmented... which is what happens. Only Americans think 'Asian' means something, it doesnt.
7
This. "Asian" means nothing, people think of themselves as Indian, Korean, Viet, Filipino, etc. The only people who conceptualize a mass Orient are those in the Occident.
8
6. If it is actually an enormous injustice to have one American racial group represented at some school, then people should first ask the Jewish American descendants of specialized school alumni for support. They do not have legacy privileges the way children of Harvard do, but countless specialized school alumni have gone on to achieve greatness in the real world. They probably deserve the success, but if you really have a problem with immigrant success stories, go knock on their doors! But look upon any appeasement offered in the form of just destroying these schools with affirmative action as a lazy, crazy attempt to burn the ladder now that they have climbed it.
8
Thank God for Trump, without him, progressives would be exposed for what they are, the biggest racist in America. This episode displays the utter contempt progressives have for the abilities of black and brown people.
11
Whenever the NYT profiles academically successful African-Americans, they always seem to be majoring in Af-Am studies, Political Science, or some other major with the word Studies" in it. They rarely seem to major in serious disciplines, such as Physics, Chemistry, Philosophy, CompSci, or even Comp Lit. If black college students want to change the world, they should approach education as if they are Asian, and not waste college and grad school studying the Black Experience. The country needs more black surgeons, engineers, research chemists, lawyers, hedge fund managers, and Quine scholars, and fewer black activists. If blacks want to succeed like Asians, they need to completely depoliticize education and use it as a means of professional and financial advancement. American needs fewer black college students studying slavery and more black college students studying surgery, computer systems, and Slavic languages.
26
8. These others who want to steal hard-won spots by top students at top schools at the last possible minute without working for it are the entitled brats who seem to assume they own public resources just for existing. The whole idea that all Americans are equal means the ones who work for it and prove themselves should be the ones to achieve success, no matter their skin color. The black and non-black, non-Jewish, non-Asian New Yorkers would be better served recruiting the top students (whatever their ethnicity) as highly compensated, highly respected tutors.It isn't as if schools are eager to hire Asian descent teachers (that's another whole political ball game). Pro tip: Serve your tutors and children fresh fruit (no sugar added) while they work. Not sure why this helps. Maybe a doctor can explain it. But every Asian parent of children I have tutored in their homes prepay by the month or half year and always serve extremely high quality seasonal fruit, even if the pay is bad because they are poor. Maybe it is brain food, all those carbs.
6
It appears liberals greatest desire to to perpetuate race based discrimination as long as possible. Liberals have always despised Asians, with their nuclear families, emphasis on education, hard working and law abiding- basically Asians are the perfect republicans. But Asians just don’t realize that yet. Democrats do which why the mayor and fellow democrats will never help them.
17
the dumb Blasio plan is just that: Dumb. He wants to increase Black/Hispanic enrollment from 10% of classes at elite high schools to 45% by using class standing in middle schools. This would be fine if all middle schools were equal and the top 7% at all m schools were interchangeable. But who believes that is true?
The problem with forcing admittance like this is test scores show Blacks and Hispanics are not, an average, competitive. The avg score of a Black or Hispanic test taker is 1 standard deviation below the avg for Whites/Asians and approximately 2 standard deviations below the typical SHSAT cut off score for admission. What that translates to is: average scores for these schools will go down, average academic level will also fall. Standards at the schools will also be lowered so that cosmetically it will look as if nothing has changed. But then the SAT scores from those HS's will drop and so will admittance rates to good colleges. Who benefits from that?
These high schools aren't segregated -- the problem is that Black and Hispanic students don't meet the standard. Removing the standard is dumb. Improve the lower schools. Perhaps create some additional seats for Blacks and Hispanics who score near the cutoffs but are not admitted.
Like most progressives -- dumb Blasio thinks that the way you fix a problem is by changing requirements & creating special preferences for your constituencies. But that's not the way to fix education.
24
The fact that these schools admit students based on only one test is a bit suspect. But if you're going to change the admissions standards, at least make them merit-based and don't simply reserve 20% for under-represented minorities who could water down the education quality of the top schools. Oh, and by the way, when viewed through the prism of class, Asians, who are disproportionately well off, aren't really minorities in the socioeconomic sense, so don't let them play that card too hard.
5
Asian immigrants are mostly poor. The majority of Asian students at the elite high school receive free lunch.
42
so by your logic, because Asians worked harder than other groups and are more sucessful at achieving the American dream, they are not "minorities" by your definition and therefore can be thrown under the bus? It feels like you're trying to say that Asians are just not the right kind of minorities with the same rights as everyone else.
19
Not sure where Pedro gets his information; besides the fact that most Asians are actually poor, as another commenter pointed out, they are only 15% of nyc; does Pedro think that 15% qualifies a group as a majority?
7
To claim, as this article does, that "Asians feel overlooked", is tendentious. The article itself notes that Asian-Americans are far from a monolithic bloc, but then goes on to conflate the views of the Chinese and Korean communities with those of "Asians" as a whole. Unfortunately, using the term "Asian" to mean "East Asian" is widespread in New York. We need to reject this implicit cultural imperialism and develop a more granular understanding of the interests of different "Asian-American" communities.
6
Mayor de Blasio’s recent actions regarding the elite schools will have a de minimis effect on the minority children in New York City -he has already failed them for every year he’s been in office -The Comptroller, Scott Stringer, issued a scathing report, denouncing the Administrations claims of improving high school graduation rates. Specifically, a new analysis by the Office of Comptroller, issued in May, 2018, reveals that the graduation gap in city high schools actually widened in recent years since de Blasio took office. Over this period, while high schools in the highest performing quintile saw their graduation rates jump from 93 percent to 97 percent, those in the lowest quintile experienced an 11 drop, from 61 percent to 50 percent. In all, graduation rates are actually declining at 110 city high schools, which together educate about one-fifth of New York City public high school students. These schools are most heavily concentrated in school districts in the Bronx, and students at these schools are disproportionately Black and Hispanic.
8
I am totally on the side of Asian kids, who should be allowed to compete for specialized high schools without any restrictions. They and their families work hard for these opportunities. But I wonder whether Asian families have helped to bring on the current situation by not assimilating as fully as some other groups and understanding how things work in New York.
This is a city where you often have to shout and stamp your feet to get noticed and get things done. That kind of behavior may not mesh well with some Asian cultures, but it is a fact of life in New York. Other racial, ethnic and religious groups understand this and, as a result, they have input and assert their rights on many aspects of city life.
Perhaps it's time for more Asian-Americans to break out of their tight-knit communities and participate more in the city's political and social affairs. Both they and the city could benefit, and they wouldn't be blindsided when these kinds of issues emerge.
23
Welcome to the Republican party, Asian-Americans.
29
DeBlasio is a terrible mayor.
43
It would appear that the dems have chosen identity politics as their crusade across all avenues of life. And it would seem they assume that Asian Americans will just suck it up as they do not worry about their votes. It's a given they vote Dem. If you are black or hispanic, the message is: you don't have to think, behave, understand math, be able to read, follow the laws, post bail, or be responsible in anyway for your actions or lack there of. You are the victim of the mean US system, and we're here to fix it. Life will be fair for you, even though it's not. And, life will not be fair if you're white or Asian because you worked hard and you're parents worked hard, and we need you to just suck it up.
32
The Democrats treat the Asian community like garbage because they know the Asian community will not protest too loudly and, like always, eventually fall in step with the Democrats.
25
ONLY 470 out of 5000 of 9th grade spots went to Black/Latino students and asking for an increase in diversity and an opportunity for those students, is racist? No, it isn't. Mr. Carranza is right -- no ONE group owns these schools. On the flip side, there are over 200K OTHER high school students in NYC public high schools - there is intense focus on the small population for specialized schools -- when it should be on improving the system for the other 195K.
5
I agree that nobody is owed admissions - which is what the test was designed for, and has accomplished. Everyone who gets in has earned their spot. The test is the messenger, don't shoot it. Black/Latino students and their families have to adapt the same mindset as Asians immigrant families (who come here not even knowing how to speak English and with no money) and drive to succeed. It's that simple.
26
Social engineering based on race is by definition racist. It is also un-American.
17
"no ONE group owns these schools."
In a sense, there is such a group: those students good enough to get in.
...Andrew
12
I wish I could feel sympathy for these people...but I don't. There is a huge blind spot because for so many years this community has chosen to be near invisible, "keep your head down," "go along," "don't make a fuss." The Asian community, many of whom have been here for several generations, could have gone a long way to preventing the current situation, but chose to let others fight the battles. Now no one is going to be fighting for them.
5
"these people" --Really?
14
The next time an African-American man is called the N word in NYC, let's ask Richard Carranza if his response will be to tell him if he chooses to be offended, that's a choice he's making; if he chooses not to be, that's also a choice he's making.
We certainly need to increase the number of AA and Hispanic students at NY specialized HS, but the way to do that is not to construct a racially biased system. Rather, it's to address the root causes and fix them. There already are free test prep programs offered by the city. Why doesn't the city work on increasing participation in them and increase funding to offer them to even more disadvantaged students? That's just one example of a way to increase AA and Hispanic students in these schools that does not resort to manipulating the system to achieve political goals.
32
Carranza is indeed annoying. But I've never heard anyone who's not black call a black person the N word in NYC.
5
The root causes are largely inherited, not learned.
1
I once talked with a young Asian attorney, and the attorney remarked how few Asians were in the practice of law as compared to medicine. The Asian attorney surmised that the advocacy component in the practice of law doesn't mesh really well with Asian culture, which is largely based on Confucian values of dutiful obedience, hard work, politeness, and decorum, etc. The innate Asian cultural values which allow Asian families to attain great financial success in American culture paradoxically stunt their ability to fully and ably advocate for their communities to some degree. There is the great adage, "If you don't advocate for yourself, no one else will". If the Asian community doesn't consistently and robustly advocate for its interests, no one else will. I urge the Asian community in NYC to seek ways to empower and enlarge self-advocacy. I urge all Asian attorneys in NYC to start going to public high schools schools with large Asian populations to show young Asian kids the potential for a legal career and the power of advocacy, and in particular, able and skilled and undaunted self-advocacy.
21
4. I have been in some of these much maligned tutoring programs, first as a scholarship student, and shortly thereafter, as a teacher (to give back), and many are nothing more than glorified baby-sitting services in dreary, cell-like rooms with flourescent lighting, bad air-circulation, and tattered study materials. Saying these are unfair advantages is exactly like trying to claim various NBA players rising to prominence from inner city neighborhoods had unfair advantages in their battered, hand-me-down basketballs and counterfeit sneakers. It is hogwash. If anything, the only secret Asian students have us to respect the teacher and to think studying is sometimes fun/cool/rewarding/cumulative, like Playstation but free.
19
Asian-Americans really need to consider the needs of other historically marginalized and underrepresented communities, not just their own. And I’m South Asian by the way.
7
I love articles showing politicians that the sword is sharp on both sides
8
Maybe Asian students do better on the entrance exam for the Specialized High Schools because their parents emphasize the importance of education to their children and excelling well in their students. Asian parents will make sacrifices for their children and find the means to pay for services to prepare their children for the high-stake exam. If their parents can’t afford the services, they will demand and expect their children to go to the library and take out books to prepare them for the exam. Lets be frank, many African Americans and Latino families don’t stress the importance of education to their children at home. Is it any surprise that their numbers (African Americans and Latinos) are low at the specialized high schools? Also, is it any surprise that when schools are closed by the DOE and restructured that virtually most of them have student bodies that are mostly black and Latino? Maybe Mayor De Blasio should tell black and Latino parents that they need to emphasize the importance of education in their homes. And maybe their will be a turn around increase of black and Latino students at the specialize high schools. (But we all know that this will never happen.)
31
It is beyond believability that any asian would vote for the party, the increasingly Far-Left Democrats, which championed and put in place the very racial quotas which have been used to keep their numbers down at the nation's elite universities.
19
I think the cultural differences are being ignored. Asian kids, especially Chinese, are under tremendous pressure from their family and friends to excel, and, because of the multi-generational family structure, many kids get more support from adults than kids from other cultures.
In many other cultures, a majority of kids don't get this level of support or pressure to perform.
The idea that smart kids need to be in segregated schools is questionable. There should certainly be accelerated classes for the bright kids in every school setting, but wouldn't it be great if they all could play soccer together? Integrating them socially benefits everyone, but parents probably don't want to give up bragging rights: "My amazing offspring attends a segregated magnet school and your kid doesn't." We've all seen the stickers on the minivans.
Why not work to make all schools work for all kids?
6
At least this would be fair and not racist. It is an alternative. And making the schools work for each and every child should be the first priority.
4
We know that Asian-American children are no more or less smarter than the children of any other ethnicity. So they achieve relatively superior results because they work harder. One may infer that the idea that animates replacing a hard working child with another who is not in an elite school is that it is the school, itself, that inculcates the value of hard work. It is obvious, however, that the hardworking student expressed this behavior of working hard well before they gained entry into the elite school. More to the point, elite schools serve a small slice of the population. It would achieve better effects to work on the more difficult problem of how to engage students and their parents in schools across the city to motivate students to lean in and work hard. This approach would lead to more impactful and durable social change.
9
Within the next two years or so the "new" US Supreme Court is going to outlaw the type of Affirmative Action plan being advocated by de Blasio. Here's the roadmap to that coming decision.
The de Blasio plan is a virtual carbon copy of the affirmative action plan that was instituted at the University of Texas. That plan mandated that the top 10% of students at every high school in the state would be guaranteed admission to the University of Texas. In 2016, the Supreme Court, in a 4-3 decision endorsed the plan. Justice Kennedy wrote the decision. The court was short staffed because Justice Scalia had died and Justice Kagan recused. Justices Ginsburg, Breyer, and Sotomayor joined Kennedy. Fast forward to 2018 and Scalia has been replaced by Justice Gorsuch and Kennedy will soon be replaced by a conservative.
Do the math. Just as they did with the recent case involving public unions, the conservatives will find another plaintiff to adjudicate this issue again. The result will be at least a 5-4 Supreme Court decision ending these programs.
So assuming that de Blasio's plan goes into effect, (which is by no means guaranteed), it will be ended by the US Supreme Court in a few years. That will also effectively end affirmative action in education.
7
In the meantime, many colleges are making the SAT and ACT optional. There's no law that says the elite high schools must offer an admissions test.
3
Actually, there is such a law, which applies only to Stuyvesant, Bronx Science and Brooklyn Tech. But at the behest of DeBlasio, there is a bill in the NY legislature which would change that law and allow the DeBlasio plan to be implemented.
No one has shown that the test itself is biased towards any particular group. Using a test as the standard for admission has worked well for students and these schools for more than 40 years. The percentages of the student bodies at the schools have changed over time; Asian-Americans (however you define them) haven't always been this high of a percentage of students in these schools. Importantly, the test provides a means by which students from different schools and with different backgrounds can be compared to each other. If the goal of having specialized high schools is to provide a space for the best students in the city to learn together, then an objective basis for comparison like a test seems like the right approach. If DeBlasio wants to change what these schools are about, i.e. they will no longer be about educating the best, then (1) he should say so and (2) that would be a mistake. His system will penalize students who work hard to have high grades and do well on the state tests but happen to go to a middle school where they are not in the top 7%. It also severely and unfairly penalizes students who attend any private middle schools (Catholic, Jewish, independent) and would want attend one of the specialized schools.
1
Mayor De Blasio just take this L. If you're so interested in leveling the playing field then offer test prep as an elective in all of the new York City public schools from elementary school all the way up so that you can ensure every child has access to the same preparation to go to elite schools. Do not disparage hard working, high achieving students and their families.
25
"The eight schools, which have a single test for admissions, have a disproportionate number of Asian students"
If you get rid of this test, there is no point in having these elite schools, why not get rid of these elite schools? Why do we need them? NY city can save a lot of money by eliminating these elite schools. The city already has enough public schools and private schools. Bright students will come up anyway, there is no way to suppress them. If the Mayor does not like the test because it favors Asians, there is one more way to decrease the number of Asian kids in these schools by adding personality traits to rate applicants just like Harvard University has done. Harvard seems to think that Asian kids are poor in personality traits like "likability" "helpfulness" "integrity" etc.
11
Padman - That's a very interesting point. I don't know enough to opine on the merits but I haven't heard much analysis of the public value of having a gated top tier of public high schools. What would the public downsides be in a hypothetical city where such schools didn't exist and each of those students went to the school identified by conventional school-assignment criteria?
Regarding the status quo, it occurs to me that the gate works both ways, by permitting entry to those who "qualify" AND denying it to those who don't. All students outside the gate are, by definition, locked out of that top-tier experience.
3
As a Democrat, I am outraged. Affirmative Action is “intended to end and correct the effects of a specific form of discrimination." If Mayor de Blasio’s blind proposal is enacted, it is discrimination against Asian Americans at its worst, who like the article pointed out, are the poorest immigrant group in the city. Asians may come from different culture and have different values, but in terms of the importance of education and hard-working, we are the same. We hold our children’s education sacred. If de Blasio does not understand or does not care to understand the possible political backlash, he will.
Education provides the most accessible venue for upward mobility. Don’t ruin the hope of the underprivileged Asian kids simply because their parents do not have the political leverage. Don’t punish the often-hungry Asian kids simply because they work hard. They, too, deserve a fair chance of moving upward. de Blasio, DO NOT take it away.
57
Unfortunately, de Blasio waited until his second term to float this egregiously racist proposal, so he won't have to face any political backlash that would really hurt where it matters to him...
12
Anyone who opposes the mayor on these also opposes affirmative action hence should not criticize Trump for his recent action.
The point here is Asians parents can afford to pay for after tutor for their children, hence allowing them to dominate STEM programs and be admitted to the best schools in the country.
Should we not try to help those minority students whose parents cannot afford tutors for their kids? This is ridiculous. The Asian communities have to realize the sacrifices minorities other than themselves have made so that they, too as a minority group can thrive in the country to the extent that they have.
Enough of thinking only about themselves.
6
Your comment completely ignores that many Asians are very poor. Indeed 40% of Stuyvesant students (many of them Asian) come from families that fall below the poverty line.
I graduated from Stuyvesant in 1981. At the time, there were far more African-American and Latino students, but their numbers fell in the 1990's. This coincides with the elimination of gifted and talented programs in the public elementary and middle schools, under which more academically gifted students in each school were put into classes together and given more advanced curricula. However, because this was deemed "unfair", all students were lumped together and better educational opportunities for brighter African-American and Latino students declined. This was the kind of lowest common denominator view towards education that ill served brighter minority students. Efforts to abolish the SHSAT suffer from the same flawed thinking. If NYC reintroduced gifted and talented programs, the numbers of African-American and Latino students at Stuyvesant and the other SHSAT schools would rise -- without the need to compromise the high academic standards and outstanding student bodies that made these schools great in the first place.
29
I actually agree with Trump on that. It’s the only thing he’s ever done right. Affirmative action does not work.
"The point here is Asians parents can afford to pay for after tutor for their children, hence allowing them to dominate STEM programs and be admitted to the best schools in the country."
WillF, did you not see the quote in the article that says Asians are the poorest immigrant group in the city?
And what sacrifices have other minorities made that Asian Americans have not? Or do internment camps and building the transcontinental railroad not count?
16
If Richard Carranza had similarly insulted any other racial or ethnic group, he would have been fired before the sun had set.
88
in america, the squeaky wheel gets the oil. in asia, the squeaky wheel gets replaced.
11
If this was a Republican mayor and it was a different ethnic group being discriminated against the media would be screaming it was a form of apartheid. Wake up my Asian friends - you belong in a party that celebrates success and hard work, not skin pigment. You'll always be a second class group in the Democrats pantheon of racial diversity.
28
About the Democrats, this is certainly true. It is not as certain, though, that the Republicans are a Party of open arms. Asian Americans, like all of us, should maintain a healthy skepticism about political parties and evaluate less what the parties say and more what they actually do.
5
Finally an article that points out a few hard truths. Specifically that Asians face poverty and lacK things like affordable housing and healthcare but somehow manage to succeed. DeBlasio is a racist. Helping the Black and Hispanic population while punishing Asians is not effective policy. He ignores the Asian population because he doesn’t think they vote and he doesn’t have to answer to them. Hoping for a scandal so he can get thrown out of office.
45
I see a lot of discussion here about how Asian Americans 'should' embrace Republicans because of their opposition to affirmative action. But the situation is so much more complex than that. Under Donald Trump, Republican policies around immigration have an equally if not more negative effect on Asian American communities: just because Mexican, Central American, and Muslim migrants are the face of that struggle doesn't mean that visas for Asian permanent residents and even naturalized citizens in the United States, for example, aren't at issue too. And at any rate, jingoists like Jeff Sessions and Steve Bannon--who has been quite clear about his disdain for Asian immigrants--make just as uncomfortable political bedfellows as Mr. diBlasio and Mr. Carranza.
If I might use some anecdotal evidence (I am a third-generation Asian American), the vast majority of Asian Americans are centrists: a bloc of voters that, no matter what their race, does not seem to have much of a voice at all these days.
8
Please point out where Steve Bannon smeared Asians. I haven't seen that. Based on what I've read, Asians in general are his kind of immigrants.
Politicians, given examples like our current President, think anybody can make it even if they do not have any preparation.
Unfortunately, many areas of endeavour require a lot of preparation and hard work and often talent to succeed. This is definitely true of science and math but also of sporting endeavours (for example our basketball players all work v. hard). The right approach to solving this problem is to first improve all the NY city schools (which unfortunately no politician is interested in solving). This would lead to much better outcomes at these tests for all applicants.
9
I work in finance and live in lower Manhattan. MY version of NYC 9Wall St) is survival of the fittest. I know that's not most New Yorkers' version of the city. To me, it's always a bit surprising to think of the city as an engine to produce equality. Working in finance, I see the city (Wall St) as a machine that grinds down the weak.
8
The racial composition of NYC's elite high schools reflects a form of global competition that many of our African-American and Latino students may not appreciate. The children of Asian and South Asian immigrants aren't any more intelligent than other kids, but they and their parents didn't come here to fool around.
The elite high schools are, in essence, reserved for families who are willing to sacrifice and prepare as though their lives depend on it.
53
As immigration increases, conflicts among minority groups for public resources are bound to increase, as long as people are treated as group members and not as individual citizens. Orthodox liberal thought, as exemplified by New York Times reporting, will have a hard time coming to terms with the idea that conflict isn't always about white Americans trying to preserve their privileges. In the meantime, Mayor Di Blasio, playing his identity politics, is getting what he deserves.
14
The NYT, its Editorial Board, and Mayor de Blasio do not hold to orthodox liberalism in the traditional sense. That liberalism holds to individual freedoms and rights for each and every one, regardless of any group traits or group identities. Over time,that liberalism became explicitly anti-racialist. That all are created equal with equal rights became its essence. The civil rights movement and legislation was an outcome of this kind of liberalism.
Today's progressivists are illiberal progressivists. They are mild versions of the old Communist revolutionary vanguards. They believe that they are superior to us ordinary people, that they are on the side of "History," and that they are therefore free to violate the rights and equal treatment to which each and every one of us are entitled under classic liberalism.
We should tell them what we think of this.
7
I would surmise that all blind spots are over (or under) looked.
It’s time for Asian politicians and activists to make some noise. Too often Asians just hunker down, work hard, and expect that to be enough. But it’s not. If you don’t make noise, you will not be heard in this world where the squeaky wheel gets the grease.
14
Democrats/Progressives only treat Asian Americans as "minorities" when they need their votes. After that, Asian Americans are rendered invisible and like the article says, become meat on the chopping block. They're sick and tired of being taken for granted and treated like the perpetual "other" in political and social discourse. Joining the ranks of the Republican Party might not be the answer, but it sure feels like a better alternative.
15
Dear Mr. Carranza,
Asians own it because they earn it. And as a public servant, you are "owned" as well.
42
the same math is used to track black, hispanic and asian communities, and the data shows the asian communities in nyc are economically more disadvantaged than other groups; one can easily conclude the city leaders are not ignorant of the facts, they are bigots pandering to other, larger minority voting blocks. as a white, anglo saxon progressive, i say quite confidently that Bill de Blasio is a racist and needs to be removed from office at the next ballot.
34
Play by the rules and work hard. Win a spot at an elite school. Merit based success.
Messing around with this simple and fair formula will have (has had) extremely negative consequences for our society.
Personally, I feel mostly for the kids who have spent years working diligently towards their goal only to have the rules of the game changed on them simply because they were so academically successful. Because that's what it boils down to. Bill De Blasio is telling the Asian community "your kids are doing too well and we won't allow it anymore".
Shameful
49
The GOP has been at war with intellectual excellence and a fact-based, scientific intellectual approach to reality for decades. Now, it looks as if some Democrats - such as DeBlasio and his ridiculous ideas about education = are joining that battle.
I find it ironic that both sides of this ugly battle against intellectual excellence use race as their battering ram. Either way you play it, that's a losing proposition for this nation, and for the world.
14
I am an Asian-American who attended BTHS. I hardly saw my parents as they both worked long hours 6/7 days. The old culture was embedded in me - long ago, a hierarchy of occupations in China ranked the scholar as the highest, somewhere near the bottom was the merchant. That does not seem to be the zeitgeist, at least in this country.
Of course there is no pure meritocracy in reality but this is blatant racism.
36
I think this article reflects two things. One is that, at least until very recently, Asians as a group were politically weak. Many are non-citizens, and many of those who are citizens do not vote, do not donate, and are not politically engaged. In terms of political cost-benefit analysis, Mayor de Blasio's grant of largely symbolic benefits to Blacks and Latinos at the expense of Asians (without regard to class or actual economic advantage/ disadvantage, mind you) was, from his point of view, an easy decision to make.
The second point is that there is a greater tolerance of racism against Asians and Asian Americans than they are to other types of racism or anti semitism. This is exemplified in demeaning stereotypes and the slurs that I still her, but and the comments of comedians Steve Harvey and Sarah Silverman (who once joked that a slur against Chinese was acceptable when a slur against Blacks was not). Perhaps this is changing as people object more to racism in this time of Trump, but Chancellor's Carranza's statement about Asian ownership of selective high schools suggests that maybe it is not.
28
I'm with the Mayor on this. The selective high schools should admit more black and brown students.
I also see that the Asian-American community came out in force in favor of the test. Families who can afford to send their kids to test prep are the winners. They seem tone deaf or woefully ill-informed about the historical forces/social forces that have led to black and brown students' families not having the resources to prep for the tests.
School Supt is also right; no one group is entitled to most or all of the seats in the selective high schools. Not fair at all.
7
Y:
"Families who can afford to send their kids to test prep are the winners."
A point the test defenders miss.
2
I totally agree! Asians work hard at jobs no Americans will do. And despite hardship and working long hours at tedious jobs they focus on educating their children and instilling a culture of learning. Why can’t other groups do this? What exactly is stopping them? Why can’t you invest in your child’s future?? I’m with Asians on this. Roar, make noise and make sure your voice is heard. This country and this city is blessed to have you.
@Yvette - Carranza is totally wrong - the group that is entitled to the seats is the group that scores highest on the test. No one is pre-selecting the group; the group rises to the top on the basis of the scores. These are poor Asian families, and often working class white families that do NOT have significant resources to pay for test prep. The schools should admit students based on black and brown skin color? Hmmm.
9
As a personal pet peeve, I dislike when articles use the term “disproportionate” especially when referring to admissions in advanced schools or institutions.
It is a deliberately passive word because people are afraid to use the proper term “highly achieved” or “successful.”
Accomplishments in life are based on what you put in, and it is naive to believe that all cultures will achieve the same results equally as a percentage of their population. Life does not work that way.
Also, in previous articles it is widely acknowledged that not many Asians are wealthy or powerful, so let’s please throw out the inevitable counter argument that Asians are privileged.
28
Dan:
"It is a deliberately passive word because people are afraid to use the proper term “highly achieved” or “successful.”
Accomplishments in life are based on what you put in, and it is naive to believe that all cultures will achieve the same results equally as a percentage of their population. Life does not work that way. "
First paragraph: The test for the selective NYC highschools is a 4 hour test one can study for. It in and of itself, absent grades and recommendations which are NOT used in admissions for these highschools, doesn't mean much.
Your second paragraph, reads like the Donald Trump defenders who consider him a successful businessman. He's not. He inherited a fortune and has been bailed out numerous times. Then do you really think the Koch brothers would be multi billionaires absent a huge head start from Fred Koch? You also seem to imply that culturally Asians put more into something than say Hispanics; it's a slippery slope there.
3
Good morning New Yorkers,
I'm an immigrant from eastern India and I have a story for you. In the first half of the 20th century, Calcutta University was a prestigious bastion of higher learning that produced Nobel Prize winners in science in a country still under colonial rule. Admission to the top programs in CU was very competitive and the degrees earned were highly respected. Then in the 70s the Commies were democratically elected in the state of West Bengal, and they immediately set on dismantling the university with political appointees, asserting labor union power over the administration, and fostering disruptive leftist student unions. After 40 years , the University is a shell of its original, glorious self, and the best students go elsewhere.
Lesson: The Lefties are good at destroying centers of excellence, and you have a choice before your fine high schools are destroyed. It's more than an Asian problem. I wish we had such public high schools in the Bay Area that encourages meritocracy by opening up to students outside their district.
28
Ajit:
Was your admittance into Calcutta University solely dependent on your SAT score? That's a single 4 hour test.
Ahh, the culture that has an insipid caste system. Keep your story Ajit.
1
I see the New York Times yet again manages to do bad bicycle use in NYC reporting:
“More recently, Mr. de Blasio targeted electric bicycles, citing safety concerns and the complaints of residents who say they are dangerous. Yet e-bikes are crucial to the livelihood of immigrant delivery workers, many of whom live below the poverty line.
“We’ve been advocating to get these bikes legalized, and suddenly the mayor decided to say, ‘Oh, we’re going to crack down even more?’ ” said City Councilwoman Margaret Chin, who represents Lower Manhattan. ‘Hey, did you talk to us?’”
The problems with e-bikes (used by anyone) are that they are uninsured motor vehicles that can reach 25 miles per hour, while being silent.
Strictly enforcing speed and direction of travel limits for all types of bicycles would solve many, not all, of the complaints about e-bikes. Such enforcement means holding restaurants legally liable for injuries caused by bicycle delivery guys.
Too much of the defense of e-bikes pretends that the ease with which they can develop more momentum than a normal bicycle and rider isn’t an issue.
4
The comments expressed here only goes to show the disdain communities and readers of this outlet have for Black and Brown children. For those saying that the test is the fairest way to admit students have not gone to an underfunded New York City Public School. Schools with high populations of Black and Brown children often lack the resources to ensure that they’re students are prepared for the SHSAT. Not only this but standardized tests are often designed to make sure that only a certain kind of student is admitted. To say that the overrepresentation of certain groups is not a structural problem, but merely a funding problem or a cultural problem is ridiculous. The complete lack of nuance and context in some of your responses is disheartening.
By making sure that students are entered by class rank and state scores, Black and Brown kids who otherwise wouldn’t have a chance might have one. I can’t see how this change would even change how over represented other racial/ethnic groups are in these schools.
When I see the comments from community leaders speaking out on this, it’s hard for to hear anything but “We can’t let those Black and Latinx kids in this school. The reason they’re OUT is the reason we’re IN”. There’s no compassion or empathy for Black and Brown children (but what’s new?). Just disdain that they might get they’re foot in the door for once.
11
Proportional representation only exists in the Progressive mind.
3
Asians are just as poor as black and brown communities and go to the same underfunded schools, yet their parents make the sacrifice to pay for supplemental schooling to ensure their kids have a future. They key to success in life is to DO, not to complain. And btw, I’m mixed race and liberals Democrat.
12
If you don't like what is happening in City Hall, VOTE! And then encourage everyone around you to vote. For all who care about children who are going to be hurt by the discriminatory policies of the De Blasio regime, VOTE!
8
Still these Asians will all go and vote for the Democratic party. Asians need to understand that they are at the bottom of the priority list for the Democratic party. Until the Asians organize themselves and make their votes count, they will always be treated like second class citizens. Trump and the Republicans have made their position clear on Affirmative Action, why aren't the Asians embracing them?
10
When are Asian- Americans going to wake up and realize that identity polics - the mother's milk of Dems - is hurting them. Why not support those who support individual effort? As President Trump says, "What do you have to lose?". Harvard's admissions policies are despicable, just as they were when Jews were subjected to a quota. Admissions by class yes, butrace no.
30
First of all, for the Times to call lack of Black and Hispanic representation in specialized high schools "segregation" is absurd. There certainly is de facto segregation in many neighborhood schools here, mostly because of socioeconomic and housing disparities (plus some unconscious racism, to be sure). But the underrepresentation of Black and Hispanic students in specialized schools, determined strictly by the results of the SHSAT, simply reflects the differences in educational achievement among different groups, which have many deep causes that need to be addressed.
Second, Commissioner Carranza's statements show an insensitivity towards Asians at best and outright bigotry at worst. He should apologize and work harder to build trust and support among this minority community that represents an important, growing part of our city.
Mayor de Blasio also has made a big mistake in attempting to impose a solution on this complex problem (in 2019-20, 20% of the seats in these schools will go to Black & Hispanic kids who did not make previous test cutoff points) rather than engaging every community to work together on a compromise solution the vast majority of the city can accept. It's not too late for him to change course, reach out, listen, and build consensus for lasting, positive change without all the rancor and tension his top-down decision has created.
19
This is where Democratic identity politics falls apart. Not all ethnic groups think alike, nor are their positions identical. Even within the most loyal Democratic group - blacks - I would expect that eventually there may be a divergence of positions. At some point high poverty blacks with zero chance of getting into Harvard even with affirmative action may decide that economic development that provides them with jobs may be more important than affirmative action.
16
Both of my children graduated from these schools, as have all of my nephews and nieces.
This issue has nothing to do with Asians being slighted. DeBlasio's scheme does not dump on Asians - it dumps equally on all students who have taken the trouble to apply themselves to their studies.
Asian students gain entrance to these schools because their families value scholarship, just like the many non-Asian students of all races who attend as well.
The current system of using an exam to gain entrance to these schools makes perfect sense; no modification to the entrance procedure is required.
If you ripped the Donkey patch off of DeBlasio's coat, and sewed on an Elephant patch instead, he would be Trump: 100% lazy, corrupt, and self-serving.
23
Implying that black and latino familes don't value scholarship is racist. A single exam doesn't make a student. DeBlasio is making uncomfortable decisions that will benefit all students. This should have been done 25 years ago. The black and latino residents of NYC have always gotten the short end of the stick whether it is access to housing, good union jobs and education.
It's an open secret that Asian Americans are the most discriminated against group when it comes to college admissions. Now, just at the time we have finally flushed out how Harvard discriminates against Asian Americans, we have de Blasio's openly racist discriminatory plan for NY's special high schools.
We all understand the utopian impulse behind this kind of racial discrimination: it's population-proportionate equality of outcome, regardless of ability and achievement. And we will engage in overt racial discrimination to accomplish it.
Perhaps Asian Americans can help us put an end to this kind of racism by putting their political power where their legitimate interests lie.
Then we can address the real issue and return to our real principles--not racialism, but justice for each and every one, regardless of race. Each and every child should attend a safe school where they have every opportunity--as far as the school can provide opportunity--to achieve their educational goals and their ambitions. That's where the work lies. That's where our resources should go and that's where our activists should focus their attention.
15
It's a fact that Asian Americans overachieve academically while Afro Americans linger in the rear. Why? Maybe it is the
fact that a strong family unit is the basis of the Asian American community, while 75% of African American children are born out of wedlock and often grow up with no father figure in their homes. But I guess that is too politically incorrect to mention.
32
75%? that seems artificially high. i say this as an Asian test prep kid who got into good schools because of standardized testing and my family's priorities. I don't see the need to cast inaccurate aspersions on other groups, though. I know plenty of African American families that are tight knit and supportive.
4
Maybe we should check the immigration status of the parents and test takers before allowing them to take the exam. Black American's should have first priority for thosse seats, their ancestors only toiled away for free for 300 years.
70-75% out of wedlock rate is actually accurate for African Americans.
Yuh-Line Niou is the problem. Ineffective politicians in the Democratic Party who do nothing for their constituents.
Hopefully this is a wake-up call to the NY Asian communities.
12
Fareed Zakaria and others have pointed out how fundamentally flawed the statistical category of “Asian Americans” is. The “Asian” classification is used as a catch-all definition for a huge swath of different cultures. Nations of origin representing billions of religiously and genetically diverse populations are all considered to fit into this category by our myopic government standards. People of every national heritage from India, to Japan, Mongolia and Singapore are included. I support giving a leg up to those who are disadvantaged economically or historically, but perhaps it is time we shifted focus to individuals with disadvantages that are primarily economic. Recent controversies like this one highlight the nearly impossible folly of attempting to over engineer social justice based on superficial appearance in the twenty first century. This imperfect practice served a great purpose when first used, but perhaps it’s time to evolve it to the next phase. America is the world’s most racially diverse country. NY is likely the world’s most diverse city, it should lead proactive social justice into a new direction. Giving people a leg up based solely on economic need would help diffuse this increasingly divisive culture war. Given that our most historically discriminated groups still include a disproportionate number of the most economically disadvantaged, using economics instead of race to provide assistance should still satisfy the need for corrective justice.
18
If you are going to Work in this City it is important for children to be integrated with other cultures. I don't know what the Answer is to the Specialized schools, but I do know kids need to see other than their own . My Children attended NYC Public Schools and were in a Gifted and talented program, but the program was multi-cultured. I Understand the Asian Community's concerns but it not good for their Children not to be exposed to children from other cultures.
3
Nobody had such concerns about white kids when they were the majority.
11
I very much hope that New York's Asians will organize and make their voices known, because it's clear that the quite "model minority" approach isn't working.
As the recent disclosures about Harvard indicate, we're now seeing frank discrimination against Asian kids not just in New York City (as well as overt racism from the schools chancellor -- just shocking) but in college admissions across the country.
What makes this doubly appalling is that these kids belong to a minority group that has itself experienced discrimination and whose parents are frequently recent immigrants who struggle economically. Their only sin is that to come from a culture that values education and works hard at school.
The old talk about white privilege can't be applied here. This is frank racism, in which black and Hispanic kids are given preferences while Asian kids are placed at a disadvantage with respect even to whites, as Jews once were when they, too, made up a disproportionate percentage of educational strivers.
41
This is not only "frank racism," as you call it, it is also an attempt to re-institutionalize racism.
I
15
Single point solutions for complex problems rarely work. We don't have integrated schools and equal opportunity at home because we don't have integrated neighborhoods and equal access to quality elementary education.
So, the problem is bigger than 'improve all schools' or change admission because the variation in quality schools is a symptom of our delusion about meritocracy at all costs spiraling downward past survival and dignity. As usual, it's the institutionalized golden rule of money and power: whoever has the gold makes the rules.
That said, if you want to play the excel-at-any-cost game, watch those dong it and learn from them instead of whining. There is a reason Asian families excel (I know from personal experience). It's a trade-off -- and sometimes a damaging one. But, it's your choice. It starts at home, not at admissions.
The ones who most lose are kids growing up in families and communities who really don't know there is a game or how to compete. They may need an opportunity admissions can provide but that is about much more than a test. It's about admissions criteria and the hard work of distinguishing potential in a tsunami of applicants.
9
De Blasio is giving the message that if you are nonwhite, poor, immigrant background, and work hard, the passage to success is going to be made steeper, if not impossible for many because you don't belong to the right racial / ethnic group.
Why should Asian kids be penalized in favor of other minority kids?
This is not affirmative action. This is throwing road blocks in front of kids who did everything they were supposed to, succeeded, and are now told they will be penalized because they belong to a group that has too many successful kids.
55
This is a bit of a red herring. The biggest problem in NYC schools is not necessarily admissions to elite schools, but the fact that there is no recourse for exceptional students who do not get into elite schools. NYC schools don't do tracking, so the "brightest bulbs" are literally in the same classes as the "dimmest bulbs," and hence are actively held back. I cannot imagine how crippling that would have been for me. So the real problem is failing a far larger number of gifted students in schools all over the city.
Add to this the fact that standardized tests have been shown to be horribly biased relative to race and gender. Everybody in higher education admissions knows that Latino-Americans fair worst, followed by African-Americans. Asian-Americans do best, followed by European-Americans. Standardized tests also systematically discriminate against females. This is normalized against subsequent performance in college, so a very real measure of standardized tests as predictors of success. Now, these data are for college, not high school. But they are likely to be similarly predictive data (or inverse-predictive, as the case may be). Probably a better course would be to combine class rank and standardized scores into a weighted average. The best course would be to also provide better options for gifted students retained within their home school area, and also provide for upward mobility for students who might mature later, and so be identified as gifted later.
7
Because testing outcomes differ by group the tests must be biased? You would have difficulty with a logic test, certainly.
8
@Metastasis wrote: "standardized tests have been shown to be horribly biased relative to race and gender."
In 1988, the Bronx High School of Science was 30% Asian, 15% black, and 10% Hispanic. See:
https://www.nytimes.com/1988/04/30/nyregion/50-years-of-nurturing-excell...
In 2016, Bronx Science was 62% Asian, 2% black, and 5% Hispanic. See:
https://data.nysed.gov/enrollment.php?year=2016&instid=800000045625
What happened over those 28 years to cause the percentages of black and Hispanic students to drop so much? I do not know, but whatever the cause(s) might be, I find it difficult to believe that the Specialized High Schools Admissions Test somehow became more racially discriminatory toward certain peoples of color than others.
8
Many NYC public high schools have honors programs and AP classes. They accommodate a range of students.
3
7. Asians can't "achieve" a political voice when resentful turf trolls at every turn are waiting to silence with undeserved character attacks any peep we make. A quote chosen for this article, for example, implies that Asians are not real New Yorkers, but merely foreign residents. The first step to gaining legal and political relevance in this country is to make money and buy property, however slowly, and accumulate, however monomaniacally, prestigious credentials.
Asians are doing what they can as fast as they can to achieve a political voice. But people are at once berating them for not participating in politics and also for trying too hard to achieve social mobility in the fact of monumental hardships/dehumanization. It is truly disspiriting to witness this turn of events. Asians study hard precisely because we do not assume ownership of anything without earning it.
19
I sure do wish there was a non-crazy alternative to the Democrats.
19
When will Asian people realize that this country does not love them. It uses them, and spits out their husks when their utility dries up. I regret the day that my parents immigrated to this country, and now I am locked in a highly specialized job that forces me to live in this country that I detest and do not want any part of.
8
Well in that case you know where the door is...as there are hundreds waiting on the other side.
6
Well workerbee, Asian-Americans don’t realize this - because it’s not true.
2
Too many Jews, too many Asians, the folly of pursuing short-term political gains while failing to deal with real problems; some things never change.
15
Academic success begins and ends at home. The Asian families are being punished for doing everything right.... two parents, not one, having high expectations instead of tolerating the bare minimum and placing a premium on education. The same can be said for Jewish families. It's past time to confront the real reasons for academic failure..... hint it's not the schools.
43
Carranza needs to go – before the start of the new school year, and before he can pad the already-bloated NYC education bureaucracy with another layer of patronage non-accountable jobs, or do other further damage through his arrogance…
All this administration knows how to increase is the number of teachers and grade levels and dollars spent…
Increasing achievement or literacy or graduation rates – beyond clueless…
PS
https://nypost.com/2018/06/26/murder-rate-has-skyrocketed-in-the-bronx-n...
“…Murders in the Bronx have skyrocketed in 2018, nearly doubling compared to the same period last year…
A positively progressive utopia...
20
Asians are too polite for American society. To prosper in this age, they must learn to demand constant attention to grievances going back hundreds of years, get on the diversity bandwagon by demanding race-based preferences in college admissions and employment, demand open borders for their ethnic groups, commit far more crime and demand that police and courts overlook their misbehavior, ensure that the media trumpet headlines from coast to coast each time a white person makes a rude or insensitive remark to an Asian, etc., etc. Hard work, honesty, and modesty are no way to get ahead in today's America.
20
I am liberal Democrat and Asian American, I used to think that it was the Republicans that play identity politics. The last few years, I've seen Democrats do worse and this was the cause of them loosing the 2016 elections. As they cater to their fringe base (pro-illegal immigration, BLM, LGBT) they lose the centrists which is what happened. Wait until they lose Asian Americans to the Republicans as well. Democrats will become the party of the side-show.
39
Folks, bottomline is Democrats like Bill de Blasio are taking Asian votes for granted. Time to make sure Asian votes are respected and policies consider the view points of Asian families and students.
All the Asian families and students are asking is to keep the admission based on current meritorious selection process. Maybe they should start demanding affirmative action benefits in High School and College sports and scholarships to send home the point that currently Asian students don't receive any special consideration and on the contrary are expected to score lot higher than anyone else to be even considered for college admissions and still discriminated against.
29
I have never understood why Asian-Americans would ever identify with the Democratic Party. The Republican Party is the political party of merit and achievement; the Democratic Party is the political party of excuses, corruption and failure. Eventually Asian-Americans will see that they have nothing in common with government centric, high tax and low performance Democrats.
25
Spot on...
An Asian-American should seek the Republican nomination in the next NYC mayoral election (others completely welcome to do so) - and line up an endorsement from Michael Bloomberg well before the election...
3
And Donald Trump is the epiphany of all that GOP greatness.
2
Today's Republican party bears little resemblance to the party you nostalgically describe. It is the party of corruption, xenophobia, race baiting, religious extremism and asset-stripping for the benefit of the super-rich. Its posture on race-based preferences in school admissions is purely a utilitarian appeal to disaffected whites who can't see that their own interests align with the very people the party attacks rather than with its wealthy donors.
6
1. Clearly, even though Jews have achieved ever so much in this city and beyond, they have not managed to erase deep-seated animosities in Africans and others who are non-Jewish from previous generations, from back when they dominated the NYC specialized school system at an even greater rate than today's Asians. (I hear 85% at Bronx Science a mere 2 decades ago). Perhaps they got away with this more successfully despite neighbors' grumbles partly because of their ability to pass for full European at first glance, depending on their level of assimilation. I used to think my Jewish peers' and teachers' endless claims of anti-Semitism were hugely overblown (in my defense, elite high schools and colleges are not places you are likely to experience Anti-Semiticism anymore), but clearly it and general anti-intellectualism are both alive and well in New York City. I am honestly quite taken aback to see this from the Democratic Party awful, which contains plenty of big nerds..
14
For Democrats, and for media too, only blacks and Hispanics are minorities. For Republicans and conservatives, all non-whites, even those born in this country, are foreigners. Asian-Americans work hard and keep a low profile, so they are easy to ignore. Asian-Americans' preferences align more with Republicans, so if conservatives become little less racist they have millions of potential votes to gain. But, they are too prejudiced to know what is good for them.
19
Republicans are trying to woo even more Asian votes by (1) bankrolling/supporting the Asian-American lawsuit against Harvard and (2) the Justice Department's recent aggressive posturing against consideration of race in college admissions. Since access to "elite" Ivy League schools is the most important domestic issue to Asians, it's a smart strategy on the part of the Republicans. It may be a pivotal factor in enabling the Republicans to keep both Senate and House majorities in Nov. 2018 and the reelection of Trump in 2020.
1
It seems curious to me that whenever an initiative is announced under the auspices of diversity, it inevitably stirs conflict between one or more ethnic minority groups. All the while (to no one's surprise), wealthy whites are the least impacted by such policies.
Such policies are merely echo older divide and conquer techniques pioneered by colonial British and French administrations throughout Africa, Asia, and the near east.
12
I'm white. I live in TriBeCa. Lots of Asians here. I feel like they improve the neighborhood. Every Asian person in my building seems to have a quick wit and to be very polite. I can't say I've ever listened to a band with an Asian member (aside from (Smashing Pumpkins) or seen many Asian athletes. Asians are not represented in the movies I watch or music I like, but I feel like they bring property values UP. If I learned that a building was 25% Asian residents, I'd be MORE likely to move in. Asian-Americans seem to improve the quality of life wherever they go.
18
3. But Asians are not the ones who made the specialized schools system. They simply played by the rules, which they had no hand in writing, and which is the DEFINITION of not cheating. You can't game a test. If it was so easy, everyone would do it. Go ahead. Give it a try. All those prep books are the same. The perverse attempt to re-define all studying to be exclusively expensive, unaffordable, immoral "test prep" belies just how self-defeatingly anti-intellectual U.S. mainstream culture is. Come on. Think about it. People scraping by under the poverty line are not capable of buying their kids unaffordable study programs. They merely noticed wealthier NYC children receiving the equivalent of a private jet's worth of extra training outside of regular school, and made makeshift paper airplanes for their kids, to keep their spirits up and to keep them occupied. Apparently, the placebo effect for more studying is sometimes sufficient to push highly motivated students and familes to the top. Who knew? But seriously, it costs mext to nothing to go to the public library and study. People should really try it sometime instead of constantly making fun of Asians for their affinity for books.
36
I am biracial white and Asian, grew up speaking my Asian mother's native language at home, and lived in her native country as a child and an adult. While attending a highly-ranked graduate program in the US, I confronted a shocking degree of racism. By way of background, the program's administration, which was predominantly white, became involved in my personal life when one of its members unlawfully disclosed my private medical condition. Subsequently, the administration, which initially offered to help me, treated me totally differently from my white classmates with personal problems, many of them less severe than mine. Instead of receiving sympathy, I was told that my devastated response was inappropriate and that I needed to decide not to be traumatized. In addition, when discussing my family and extended family, the administration displayed totally different attitudes toward my white and Asian relatives, treating the latter as though they were inferior. There is no question in my mind that I was told what I should feel, as though my feelings were illegimate and I could turn them on and off, because I am Asian. Similarly, there is no question in my mind that Richard Carranza's statement that Asians can choose or not choose to be offended is a display of racism and contempt for Asians. Such a man should not hold a position of authority in our public education system.
29
If he had said this about another minority group, he would have been fired!
8
I would be curious to know whether you encountered any discrimination while living in Asia. I have read that bi-racial people in some countries (Viet Nam, Japan) have reported being subjected to it.
1
Here is are two novel ideas. Public schools from grade one through high school should offer 1: A more vigorous curriculum that will prepare students to pass those tests and more importantly (to me) be better educated in various subjects, not all students want to go to the elite high schools, but they do want the same learning experiences and have a chance to get into a college of their choice based on their well rounded education. 2: ALL schools should have the same course levels, same books, same caliber of teachers, etc., one grammar school should not have a lower level math book than another school whose focus is to get their students into specialized high schools.
7
The Asian-Americans who hold office at various levels are all Democrats. So, I guess the Democratic power structure feels, in their heart of hearts, that they can take them for granted, or at least they can be ignored. Maybe they should consider being moderate Republicans - note that I am not a Republican.
17
True in this case and true in general. Thoughtful, principled moderates could take the next election broadly across the entire nation. Too bad there are so few.
6
This isn't just about kids, it's about rewarding or punishing parents. Kids are biologically and often in their environment, products of the parents.
de Blasio is essentially rewarding bad parenting and punishing good parenting. Forget race, that's what he and other Democrats are doing by playing race politics. And Democrats say they're the party best for families? Why do Democrats quickly abandon Asians who rise up from poor to middle class? That should be a crown for Democrats, not a target.
de Blasio and Democrats have lost my vote. They don't seem capable of much. Murphy has already failed NJ. And regardless of Trump's actions or results, he's the only one whose words actually resonate with working blue class, depressing as that sounds. keep up this strategy Democrats of punishing hard work and you'll lose the Asian vote who while small, overall are among highest median income
28
if you could wave a magic wand and change one thing in order to improve academic performance of inner city kids I would ask that every child has a father in his life
21
The problem that blacks and latinas are under -represented in the specialized schools is bigger than the test itself. Clearly, we could look for answers in some very complex issues of urban poverty.
While the plan for rebalancing the test curve to accommodate these group may improve the diversity of the school, which is a positive result IMHO, it still seems very unfair to the group of worthy, hardworking students, who would have otherwise qualified for those spots, to say good luck now go find another decent high school. Most of those kids being denied their placement are not rich or terribly priviledged and desperately need a good school to go to.
The obvious solution is to build more specialized schools. So get to it Mayor Deblassio.
13
How about the Board of Ed, require that these "cram schools" be registered and offer sessions to all students (at a cost of course)? These "cram schools" are all offered in mandarin/cantonese and are ill-equipped to offer prep services to white, black and latino students. On test day, the Board of Ed will know which students attended these schools and which students didn't.
4
I am truly sorry for the students no matter the race that feel that they are being short changed by the mayor.
Unfortunately unless Blacks and Hispanics are allowed increased entry to the elite schools, those students will suffer. They come from the two most economically distressed groups in the country, their families can not afford to pay for private schools. Time and time again these ethnic groups have always been given the shaft, it is time for them to benefit.
5
The point adjustment for Harvard's math entrance exam
Ethnicity Points added/subtracted
White 0
Asian -140
Hispanic +130
Afro-American +310
Asians. the poorest group in NY City, are discriminated against when trying to climb up
28
If you are an underrepresented minority family, you should definitely enroll your child in SHSAT test prep and then follow up with SAT test prep. There are numerous free and reduced cost resources. But just doing free practice tests gets you halfway there.
Did you see the Harvard admissions data: for an Asian kid with a 25% chance of admission, a white kid had a 35% chance and a black kid had a 95% chance.
Another study showed Asian students needed to score 450 points higher than black students to gain admission to top private colleges.
Before affirmative action is further limited by the courts, I would advise to take advantage of this legally sanctioned reverse discrimination. Time is running out on this incredible opportunity.
23
It’s understandable to wonder if there are racial implications to the high proportions of Asians in Stuyvesant. Consider though how these Asian families came to live in New York. As a gross generalization, let’s separate the Indian families from the Chinese and other East Asian families.
The Indians tend to be from the highly educated tiny minority of Indians with formal academic credentials, who come here speaking fine English. The Chinese students tend to have uneducated parents who speak little or no English, and many are here illegally, which curtails job opportunities and keeps them poor. But these parents are uneducated because of lack of opportunity in China - not lack of ability, not lack of desire.
Importantly, both groups are remarkable, self selected in ways which make them different from the great mass of their countrymen back home - they chose to come here, to make their children’s lives here in this far away and culturally strange place. This combination of daring, ambition and intelligence singles them out from the two billion who stayed home. They deserve better than to be victims of racial discrimination because of their children’s academic excellence.
Summing up, the Mayor’s well meant plan will not give a Stuyvesant education to the good students. If the Mayor wants to track them into new high schools exclusive to them, that’s certainly a debatable option. But to do that, it is not necessary or moral to destroy the futures of our best students.
8
What does the New York schools debate have in common with the Harvard lawsuit and California's anti-affirmative action bill SCA-5? White racists and bigots are using these issues deliberately to drive wedges between various minorities, all of whom have had to struggle against oppression and discrimination. That Bill DeBlasio let himself be used this way is shameful and embarrassing.
As the article points out, Asians have hardly had a cakewalk, and many Asian subgroups remain poor and disadvantaged. Education is their chosen way up. Blacks and Latinos have had vastly greater acceptance and success in other sectors of the economy, such as culture, media, performing arts and sports. Should we cut back the numbers of Black and Latino musicians, actors or professional athletes to make room for Asians?
The real solution is to increase investment in all sectors of education (academic and otherwise) so that all kids have the resources and opportunities to excel, at whatever they choose to pursue. We can find ways to help some minorities without blatantly punishing others. This should be the progressive agenda, not more tribal divide-and-conquer.
18
So, in the name of "fairness" de Blasio want to target the poorest ethnic group in the city who, despite all odds, have overachieved. It is clear he is race-baiting for political points. WOW NYC. First Trump and now de Blasio?
24
My nephew, who is white, is dating a girl of Asian descent. She has taught him how to study. He claims that if he had known what she has taught him, as a college freshman, he would have gotten straight A's I High School. Maybe we should be looking at those skills and teaching them to our kids, regardless of race, to increase diversity in NYC schools and schools nationwide.
25
It takes parents who can see the value in a good education.
6
Changing the admissions process to these schools is not the solution. De Blasio, sadly, is totally bankrupt of ideas.
29
In general, Asian-Americans do better in test taking and get better grades than other ethnic groups. According to this article, Asian American's think public (magnet) and private (Harvard) schools in the United States should cater to them because they are high academic achievers and get better grades, and exclude other groups who are in different economic, ethnic, and social stratum and get lower grades and SAT scores than them.
Am I the only one who thinks diversity is important? That its not about rewarding one ethnic group over another because they are good at taking a test or their parents pushed them to be super achievers in school but exclude other ethnic groups because of their skin color or social class? The United States did this for 100s of years for whites (mostly Anglo Saxon Protestants) and we now have a shrinking middle class, the elites have taken over our political process, and public schools don't have enough funding because the elites and their minion politicians don't want to pay for it via taxation. I think grades should be one of several factors in admittance to any private or public school, including college or K thru 12. Diversity in work, school, and neighborhoods is also very important in instilling social cohesion, egalitarianism, and upward mobility.
8
What is wrong with people being rewarded for being super achievers? Isn't that the whole point of coming to America, so you can facilitate success for your children? Those rewards are EARNED - by largely lower class Asian families.
Instead, shouldn't we be encouraging black and Latino parents to do a better job of pushing their own children rather than teaching them to blame "discrimination" for everything?
Discrimination is real. But in this case, no one is being excluded because of skin color or class. Asian Americans in NYC have the HIGHEST rates of poverty. Many don't speak English. Many work multiple jobs and live in less than ideal housing. Many are routinely discriminated against.
Yet they manage to stay married and find time an resources to educate and push their children to academic levels that exceed those of even affluent white kids.
Ditto with Jewish Americans in previous generations.
It's time for "underrepresented" communities to take some responsibility for their "underrepresentation." Because in this case discrimination has nothing to do with it.
22
So what do you see as the reward for hard work? Why should students strive for academic achievement when the outcome is being locked out of the rewards of that achievement in the name of diversity?
6
It's important to recognize the difference between super testers and super achievers. Standardized tests are actually poor predictors of future success.
Every minority most likely can claim that they are not fairly represented or given changes, or are being prejudiced against. I'm sure the minorities of Arab or Muslim people, South American people,people of colour and Philippine people can all claim what the Chinese people are saying. So what should these minorities do? If these "specialized" high schools are so much in demand, then some kind of tests should be used to select the brightest and most qualified. Also, what ever happened to parochial schools where minorities created their OWN schools to send their OWN children to?
1
Parochial schools are for religious instruction. Not all people of a particular ethnicity share the same religion.
3
How many students can do the advanced work?
If there are more students who would be able to do the work that these schools provide than there are slots in the schools, having a big fight about rationing is NOT how we should be spending our time and energy. Instead, we should be concentrate on providing sufficient resources so that every child who can do the work will get the opportunity. Its time to open more academically advanced schools - or have more advanced programs in the local schools. Investing not rationing is the sensible answer. As a parting thought - anyone who thinks that one test can indicate which students are "best" has never worked with real live students.
16
Not completely sure if segregation is the right word here, especially with all the historical baggage that that word implies. No one is being kept out of schools, just some kids for various reasons are better prepared than others.
19
As an Asian-American who attended one of these specialized high schools, Brooklyn Tech, I can say based on my experience that these schools are overrated, and that an intelligent and talented youth will excel regardless of their school. However, the environment of these schools are relatively safer than other inner-city schools, and that's basically the only difference. That being said, race quotas are ridiculous, and would only encourage youths to become big fish in small ponds, which would not increase overall education level. The issue is increasing the quality of education across the board. Keeping schools safe, and instilling strong work ethics/discipline that are either neglected at kids' homes or wherever in their lives. Foreign Asian students aren't genetically smarter than others, they just come from a culture that instills ethics/virtues that are lacking in American culture.
54
Adding bad milk to good milk makes bad milk.
32
I send my 3 (white) kids to private school, so I have no dog in this hunt. But it simply seems preposterous to say that black and Latino kids who make up 70% of the students in the system, will get 15% of the seats at the elite schools which can be a ticket to a great future.
No notion of "fair" will allow for this outcome. The one-day test is not the be all and end all.
9
Why aren’t your kids in public schools?
9
because he can afford to send them to private school. I will send my kids to private school. Private school has lower obesity rates, more after school athletics, and French. I want my kids playing tennis, lacrosse, and learning French (to read Baudelaire, Blanchot, and Proust). Private schools have ski teams too. I am 48 and attended private school. Most of my peers are still thin at 48. Their kids are thin. Apparently, a private school education is the best way to prevent obesity.
Shifting the racial demographics of schools is a zero sum game. It does't address the larger problem which is the limited number of spots available at the few highly desirable magnet schools. How about we spend time and resources on addressing the larger problem instead of getting a quick sound bite/boost in your approval ratings for latino and black voters? We're never going to move forward if we're constantly arguing about who gets to move forward.
13
Let’s be honest - entrance to these elite schools is generally not about native talent. It’s about the kids who have the resources (financial and/or parental pressure) to engage in extensive test prep. That is an unfair advantage. It’s too bad schools don’t have a way to determine the amount of test prep a kid gets, because the ones who don’t
have that advantage (whether it’s a poor white kid or a Latino from Amsterdam Avenue) should not be judged as if they are on the same playing field. There is something to be said for a kid who did not grow up surrounded by peer and parental pressure to do multiple rounds of test prep but who by his or her own grit, determination, and ambition worked hard academically and got great high school grades.
7
Many of the Asian students in these elite high schools are the children of immigrants from poor homes. It's not about money -- it's about a culture that values education.
22
This is ridiculous test prep is just working hard and studying and in life those who works the hardest and study the hardest are the most successful in fact the smartest but the laziest are the ones that goes nowhere in any organization.
So I don't know why you think those who don't know how to test prep will thrive in Stuyvesant where most people will have good study habits and crazy discipline to do the work.
1
You're just trying to say children should not gain any benefit from their parents' privilege. Sure, that's great in principle, but it seems that de Blasio is selectively addressing this in a way that hurts the group with the highest poverty rate (the least financial privilege) and sure maybe some parental privilege in the form of parental pressure. Why aren't we massively taxing rich white people and banning private schools in NYC then? That would go a longer way to fulfilling that principle and helping more kids of color. But no, it's really because de Blasio wants to target Asians - who are vulnerable politically and economically - so that he could find a scapegoat for his failure to fix education and to rally other minority voters to re-elect him.
7
Putting aside social justice goals this plan is seriously flawed when it comes to feasibility. Seats at the specialized school will no longer be based on objective merit, but rather on whether a student happens to be in the top 7 percent of his or her middle school, regardless of how good or bad, or how many good students are there. What about gifted and high performing middle schools? The same percentage of students from those schools will go to specialized schools as from underperforming schools where few students have qualified from taking the exam. That will throw the whole system in chaos. Gifted students who have worked hard to get into those middle schools will be punished for it, having to compete against other gifted students for limited spots, while students that have no chance of doing well at these rigorous schools take up spots that would otherwise have been assigned based on merit. The result, hundreds a kids failing at the specialized schools, a chilling effect on the best middle schools, and, eventually, after years of trying to accommodate struggling students, the specialized schools will no longer be any better than neighborhood schools.
29
You're assuming that the brown/black kids that will now be accepted will fail to do well at these elite schools (despite being at the top of their class in Jr. High). I suggest you reference the nearest history book to see that blacks have always risen against great adversity and have excelled.
2
DeBlasio himself has said under his plan more funding is going to have to be made available for remedial classes at Stuy and other specialized schools. This is wrong. The schools are not there to provide remedial classes. That is a dumbing down of the curriculum. And by the way, my Asian daughter got into Stuy without any test prep. Test prep is not taken by every single student at Stuy.
1
The concept of elite public schools does not make sense, but if such schools exist, admission to them should be strictly on the basis of merit not race.
19
schools don't make students. students make schools. this mistake is to think that schools educate and improve kids. we fetishize education. in general, a smart kid from an involved family will succeed even if s.he is schooled at home. schools and teachers are not magical alchemical devices that transform kids. at best, schools, teachers, and student body give students a place to develop their abilities an minds. the only way to have a good school is to admit smart kids with parents who are involved in the children's intellectual development. In 'To Sir with Love;' a caring teacher helps his students turn into better people, but he doesn't send them to Oxford. The same is true in Welcome Back, Kotter. I think mentor can absolutely make a kid a better person by example, but this doesn't imply to academic ability. Teachers do not teach. Teachers evoke and enable. If the kids currently at Stuyvesant were sent to school in a warehouse in Bushwick, they'd all still do well and get into Washington University.
12
Once again, the proposed solution to perceived racial discrimination, is to implement different racial discrimination. This just shifts the anger and frustration from one race to another and doesn’t help to eradicate racism as an issue.
If Asians score disproportionately higher on entrance exams, why is this? Is someone going to say that Asians are naturally smarter human beings? I don’t think so. I suspect that the advantage is cultural. Asians seem to have stronger family units that put more emphasis on learning.
In a 2012 report, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention said that 73 percent of Black kids, and 53 percent of Hispanic kids, lived in single parent homes. That compared to 29 percent of White kids and only 17 percent of Asian kids. Can we all agree that this is part of the problem?
The solution for Black and Hispanic kids is not to “dumb down” school entrance requirements. That does not serve the community...or even those kids in the long run... and it unintentionally fuels racial tensions with the groups that are adversely affected by the change.
There are reasons that only 10 percent of Black and Hispanic students get into these schools when admission is based on a test. Society needs to address the underlying causes instead of lowering it’s standards.
But of course that first requires being honest about the problem.
62
Whites are good at identifying problems that other races in the US face but not fixing There are many historical reasons for black and latino kids coming from single parent homes which vilifying them will not solve. Let's not kid ourselves the US does not encourage intellectuals or academic pursuits and being smart in high school is not a positive. The only thing most Americans seem to respect is whether a kid is good at sports otherwise the kid is a nerd. Maybe focusing on changing the attitude towards smart kids as outsiders and improving the schools by making the curriculum engaging and relevant to the students will get better results.
7
It is no secret that Liberal schools pick and choose which skin color and race is preferred over another skin color or race.
17
Asian New Yorkers should not feel particularly slighted. Our Mayor, second to none in adherence to the bleeding heart liberal mindset, is naturally dismissive toward any group that works hard, follows the rules, earns its successes and does not require or demand any breaks or handouts from his ilk.
35
What the city Democrats are doing is the surest way to drive most Asians to the Republican Party.
As other commenters suggested, as soon as the NBA and NFL reserve quotas for Asian atheletes, Asians will support quotas for other racial minorities into elite high schools.
48
It's already starting. Hardly scientific but many of the Chinese-Americans moving into my neighborhood are republicans. I didn't take a poll but in casual conversations with Chinese neighbors quite a few mentioned that they voted for Donovan or Grimm in the recent primary, meaning that they are registered as republican.
11
Do we really want to have so many Americas? Is there such a thing as an Asian-Asian? Sometimes it seems like a really dumb experiment.
4
Another genius move on the part of rampant "progressives." Great, all we need is to deliver the Asian-American community of New York to the hands of the Republicans. Genius move, mayor.
Even in this current political climate Democrats just don't seem to get it - instead of trying to be more inclusive, they are doubling down as the party of blacks and latinos. The midterms should be a democratic landslide with this criminal clown in the White House, and yet Democrats will again manage to shoot themselves in the foot and miss this opportunity to re-establish a balance of power.
Wake up, Democrats! There are many progressives like me who are appalled at the Republicans, and yet feel alienated from the Democratic party because of your rampant racial biases. You cannot just cater to blacks and latinos!
46
The Democrats only care about a constituency when they are looking for votes....perhaps Asians would take Trump's advice to blacks, "What do you have to lose?" and look towards Republicans and the meritocracies they support and promote.
23
Actually Trump is a major threat to everyone everywhere except for his base of white people. Asians should vote Trump and his allies out but at the same time they should vote de Blasio and his allies out. We don't have to vote one way across different elections.
4
The Republicans support meritocracy? You've got to be kidding. Any support is lip service only.
1
Cathy are you aware that Trump's "what do you have to lose" comment to the African American community was (at best) ludicrous when he made it and that it is now possible to answer his rhetorical question with a resounding "a lot!!!!!" He has been a disaster for the African American community. So your suggestion is way way off mark.
3
At some point, we have to admit the obvious.
DeBlasio is racist, perhaps intentionally, or perhaps not.
37
Until Asians start making progressives pay a political price for their overt racist policies they will continue to be on the menu and not at the table.
59
Is it bad that the NBA is dominated by African Americans?
Should there be race-based quotas there too?
The liberal obsession with race is wrong, un-American and frankly embarrassing for the DFL. More voters will be switching to the Republican brand.
52
What exactly is the issue to opening up the slots to those students that are the top of their class across all public schools? It's seems pretty uniform to me. All students should have the opportunity to attend these elite schools not just a selected few.
We want to assess the students NATURAL ability to learn and their independent intellectual curiosity. The fact that a particular demographic focuses heavily on their kids attending these "cram" schools is not harnessing their natural ability. These schools teach memorization and robotics. They only "know" how to take these tests.
3
Hard work is a natural ability. Also, people learn stuff in cram schools. It's just extra school. These kids are plenty smart beyond taking the tests.
12
In the current system also ALL students have the opportunity to attend the elite schools. Having the top 7% of all schools automatically get admission to the elite schools would be fine provided all schools had the same standards, unfortunately the top 7% in one school might equate to the bottom 7% of another school in terms of knowledge, mathematical skill set, classwork etc.
I cannot understand why people use "over-represented" for Asians who are hardly a monolithic group. Why are Hispanics counted separately (when they are an ethnic group) and represent both the black and white races.
13
It's very doubtful that 7% at one school would equal the bottom 7% at another, it's the same NYC curriculum after all. While the curriculum may not have been applied as vigorously as others, smart is smart and the kids would be fine.
Compound what's happening at Stuyvesant with the lawsuit against Harvard for screening candidates for attractive personalities. Also, the University of Chicago has made submitting SAT/ACT scores optional, encouraging applicants to submit "non-traditional materials." If other elite schools follow these moves away from objective admissions criteria, it will make discriminating against Asians easier.
This is ultimately changing the question because we don't like the answer. If academic excellence and rigor used to be the goal, it's not that anymore.
30
What's wrong with widening the spectrum of application materials to be considered? A test isn't the only way to assess talent/smarts/ambition and if the applicant meets the entry requirement minimum thresholds (GPA,SAT score), what is the problem?
Every student is better served with a diverse student body and life experiences.
1
This is a complicated issue. The only thing I know for sure is that it's easier to be white. You get to be an individual, and not lumped into a group, either considered a "model minority", with both the positive and negative aspects that entails, or judged to be "inferior" if you are black. My daughter is Asian, adopted from China. Money (privilege) and "effort" both matter. I paid $400 for an ACT prep course for her and she raised her score 7 points, from a 22 to a 29, after putting in 35 hours of study...so proud of her.
My African American students matter too....and their shot at a spot in the elite schools is important. Most of the important life lessons I have learned about persistence and character has been from my black friends....a successful female small business owner and single mom, an adjunct college professor who grew up in the South, and a former NFL player who was one of the first high school students to experience integration in his home state of Alabama in the 60s.
Both my Asian daughter and my black friends have experienced racism. They acknowledge it and move on. To pit one group against another is just plain wrong.
11
"If you're white you get to be an individual and not lumped into a group?' Are you serious? Do you read the New York Times? White as a group are referred to and almost always in a disparaging manner in virtually every issue of the paper
6
It's high time America does away with its obsession with affirmative action and let the most qualified people, regardless of skin color, religion, gender or sexual orientation, rise to the top
Is there anything more American than that?
44
Not according to our mayor DeBlasio......
5
The situation for Americans of Asian ancestry is only going to get worse before it gets better. As strategic and economic competition between the United States and China intensifies, anti-Chinese and anti-Asian sentiments and prejudices are bound to increase and gain greater mainstream acceptance. It's interesting to observe that Asians are the only visible ethnic minority in America that are subject to both attacks from Rightists and Leftists.
22
Out of curiosity what rightists are attacking Asian Americans?
4
What Republican ever opened up a racially based assault on Asian-Americans like deBlasio and Carranza are doing right now? All the attacks on Asian-Americans are coming from the left.
6
Well, Mr. Carranza, they don't "own" it, they "earn" it. Let's start from that basic premise and go from there.
159
Carranza likes straw man arguments, Also, he thinks reality is a series of "narratives," so he doesn't believe in objective standards of measurement such as entrance exams. Typical "educator."
10
I agree with you and think the arrogance of Carranza with his non-apology is infuriating. Asian families have every right to be angry with the NYC politicians running the DOE.
10
Smaller Neighborhood schools would help.
Key word: neighborhood.
2
Another typical example of the white moneyed, politically powerful class pitting one racial minority against another. And we fall for it every time.
Why do we insist on fighting over the scraps? Why do we allow this white privileged mayor to make the Asian American minority out to be the bad guys? What did these families do wrong? sacrifice everything for education? followed the rules of the game?
Consider this analogy: a law states that doctors are only allowed to treat every tenth patient with strep throat with antibiotics. Despite the fact that there are antibiotics aplenty. What would you do as a doctor? Comply and figure out which 10% gets treated? No. You ask why this rule exists in the first place. You ask the tough question of what is wrong with the system that forces us to make such an awful decision?
What is wrong with this education system? Why doesn’t every neighborhood have a quality school with quality teachers? Fix the real problem. Mr Mayor, start leading and facing the hard issues.
19
Mika, I agree with a good bit of what you say, but your example about strep throat shows why context is, like in all things, incredibly important. Doctors should avoid handing out antibiotics as much as possible because the more they are used the sooner the diseases we are trying to fight will grow resistant to them. It is the doctor's job to know how much suffering is too much, how critically ill a patient might be, and when needed give them antibiotics. We have plenty of the drug, but if we gave it to everyone, that plenty might not be enough for those who really need it, versus those who will recover with rest and a tough week. Plus, those antibiotics will no longer work in the future if we are too careless about them.
2
We have a similar problem in Philadelphia where Masterman is considered the best in Pennsylvania. Asians dominate at this school too and Blacks at the bottom. After these two high schools, you might have a couple that are okay, then a miserable lot that are not okay. Some of the charters are okay, discipline-wise, but not really for academics. There is an overwhelming demand for seats at Masterman, but if you do not go through their junior school, you really do not get in, and then they graduate about 200 from 8th grade and only half gets in to the high school! Kids crying on the day they find out they can't attend the high school with their classmates, it's horrible. More high level schools should be created,but then Masterman would not be so special anymore if it competition. Right now they get the pick of the litter and thus are the best "public" high school in Pennsylvania. When stacked up against all schools (private, Catholic, Quaker, etc), Masterman drops down to somewhere between 15th to 20th best in the Delaware Valley (not the state, just Delaware Valley). So for all the screaming, it's really about a good school for "free." I imagine it is difficult to create more high level schools because then you would need more high level teachers, who come to school to work, all the students are present, attentive, do their homework, show up for tests, etc. There is likely not enough good teachers to create more good schools.
Any remedy to the problem of Black and Hispanic children being under-represented in the enrollment of the city's elite high schools that results in Asian students losing significant numbers of seats will spell disaster for the city. If Asian parents cannot count on their children having access to the specialized high schools at the present level of representation, they will leave sections of the city that, for the last thirty years or more, have flourished and prospered as Asian have bought homes and built thriving businesses. The very real danger exists that New York will, almost overnight, revisit the decline it saw in the 1970s or, even worse, begin to resemble Detroit in the worst stages of its decline.
Whether at Stuyvesant High School here in New York, or at M.I.T. or Harvard, the phenomenon of Asian representation in far higher numbers than their presence in the population can account for is not seen by the Asian community as unfair to anyone. Rather, it is just one sign of the hard work and sacrifices Asian parents and their children are capable of, an option open to members of all groups in the society. Politicians who tamper with that opportunity here in New York, had better step back or get run over by the caravans of New Yorkers speeding for the exits.
There is an obvious solution. Build more elite high schools, schools that will attract native talent of all backgrounds.
32
Again, a man of privilege in power - white, cisgender, heterosexual - using his vast political clout to play out his racial biases and ideology on the public while rendering specific racial groups more disenfranchised, within legal constraints of course, in order to play up to his voting base and publicly perform the white savior trope, thus appeasing his white guilt. He needs to voted out.
19
I have a close colleague who is of Chinese descent, she came to this country at a young age and she did rather well for herself. But this is about her nephew who got admitted to Bronx High School of Science for the upcoming school year. Here is how his family planned this. (They are not rich people). They enrolled him in an Asian-run tutoring program on the weekend, not inexpensive considering his father is unemployed. The tutoring program guaranteed the boy would get into one of the elite high schools.
All his family members encouraged him to persevere and to put 100% in his endeavors. Bottom line, he passed and was admitted to BHOS. Come September, a private bus that cost $800 per semester will pick him up at 6:a.m. near his home in Queens.
Should other groups want their children to have a chance to have their child in a specialized school, then, they should emulate this formula. Put priority in education. Family members put their money together for tutoring programs. Nothing, including success comes easy. And, yes, I am Black.
110
Interesting about the expensive private bus. Up until 2010 the MTA ran an express bus (the x32) from Queens to the BHOS area. IIRC it was discontinued after 'complaints' from certain elected officials.
X32 still on MTA site - http://web.mta.info/nyct/bus/schedule/xpress/x032cur.pdf
NYT story - https://nyti.ms/2lUbne9
2
You can't pass a law or a policy that will make all kids equally smart and work-driven.
58
Affirmative Action and other measures to "even the playing field" have been undertaken to assist underprivileged minorities in American history. That is to say, minorities who have been discriminated out of the benefits of a society they have contributed to build. It is not difficult to see that African Americans, Hispanics, and Native Americans mostly fall into that category. Asian Americans are today the highest earning ethnic group in society, even higher than whites, and, certainly, the most highly educated. Are they not already enjoying the full benefits of living in the United States? Are they not a factor in the social inequality of the country? I am not surprised that some of the most outspoken advocates of conservative politics happen to be of Asian origin. They should help those who lack opportunities rather than advocate for additional privileges.
4
Lara, I think you missed that part of the article that said that Asians are actually the *poorest* minority group in NYC. We're not talking about the sons and daughters of Chinese tech billionaires. We're talking about the sons and daughters of guy who delivers your take-out food.
32
You're 100% correct except for the fact that Asians-Americans are the poorest ethnic group in New York City.https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/asian-american-poverty-nyc_us_58ff7...
7
Lara,
Your assumption that Asians are taking advantage of affirmative action to get into the specialized high schools is inaccurate. There is only one criteria: how well you do on the entrance exam. There is no affirmative action component in the admissions process. de Blasio is trying to introduce affirmative action into those schools by asking for other criteria to be used.
Asians are not a monolithic group. And not all are in the highest economic group. In fact. the majority of the Asian students who attend these schools fall below the poverty line. Many of them come from families of restaurant workers, laundromat workers and cab drivers, etc. These students know that these merit based schools are the one shot that would give them the access to better colleges and jobs, and an opportunity to a better life.
Last, you cannot ignore the contributions Asians have made in literally building this country. Just google railroads. And while you're at it you might want to read about the racism and discrimination they endured.
16
The answer to De Blasio's dilemma is not in denying one student to give the place to another based on color or race. Theft is often the lazy man's way out. The solution is to create more great schools and hence opportunities for more people to attain a high quality education.
An important question to ask is, "Why aren't more schools like Stuyvesant?"
I proffer that the answer lies in the drive of the students and their highly engaged parents who help ensure that the child works hard and excel. The children don't ace their exams just by virtue of attending an "elite" school but by putting in hours and hours of study and exam preparation. In all probability, they sacrifice game and TV time to pull in those high grades.
Inserting a student into an environment that he/she is not prepared for is not helpful and will not result in a better student. It will be more than demoralizing for the child who finds it hard to keep up with the grades of the rest of the class.
57
I agree that preparation for the tests is important, but I think that a key element that what is missing here is just that-test Prep. In many communities, there is not access to the test prep tools that are available in other communities. This can be due to lack of money or quite honestly, exposure or lack of parent education to know that these tests require preparation. Why not level the playing field and provide resources ( free or low cost test prep classes) to assist all students with this opportunity? If not, then it seems fair that the test should be eliminated. It’s similar to what happens in the world of college admissions—many students and parents simply don’t understand that you can ( and many do) ‘prep’ in advance for these standardized tests. I’ve had so many students who were extremely intelligent and had high grades who missed out on the opportunity to attend a college due to their SAT or ACT scores only to hear that ‘I don’t do well on those types of tests’ and later find that they had never taken a practice test or had not done any test prep at all. When I asked why, the answers varied from “I didn’t know I was supposed to or could do that” to “ My parents couldn’t afford it.”
We have to acknowledge up front that the playing field is not even and we need to do something about that first, rather than pointing the finger without offering tangible solutions.
4
Exactly. Why is de Blasio working hard to destroy Asian majorities at these schools? In the name of “racial equality”? What about the dozens of 99%-white public and private schools?
13
H,
Your third paragraph undermines your first. You suggest that the mayor should create more great schools, then do on to argue that a school's greatness stems from the quality of its students. I entirely agree wit that, but, if it is true, it means that one cannot create or engineer great schools, because the ingredient that makes a school great, driven students, is rare and finite. To make more great schools, an engineer would have to make more great students, which is exactly the problem. I think the mayor wants to spread the good students around all the schools to try to improve them all.
My own life experience is useless, because I attended elite private schools that had BOTH money and terrific students from super smart families (I attended jr high with the children of a member of SCOTUS and countless professors).
If Stuyvesant is great, it's because of the smart, driven Asian kids. The way to make more stuyvesants is to spread those smart Asian kids all over the city. The problem is that thre's a limited, finite amount of smart kids.
3
There is no such thing as a "good" school and a "bad" school.
Two years ago, we paid a $250,000 premium to move from a "bad" school district in Austin, Texas, to a "good" school district. Using greatschools.org as our Bible, we moved from a "4" to a "10" on their rating scale.
There was no material difference between the two schools. Both buildings were constructed in the last 15 years and very nice. The materials, staff, and teachers were comparable in every way. The kids were no different, either.
The difference was the parents. The old neighborhood was an extremely diverse middle class neighborhood, with some low income housing and rural areas with recent immigrants. Head scarves were as common as pool noodles at the HOA pool. Many of the residents graduated from public universities and worked for the state government or city.
The new neighborhood is mostly elite tech types. The stay-at-home moms shuffle their kids from one activity to another in their yoga pants. There is plenty of money for nannies and tutoring. The kids are expected to follow their parents to elite colleges.
There was zero difference in the quality of education offered at either school. I paid a quarter of a million dollars for nothing. People need to stop looking at ratings, because they don't tell the whole story.
18
Steve, as someone who has attended both very "bad" and very "good" schools during my childhood, I can say you are flat-out wrong. What you did was move from a middle class school district to an upper middle class school district. Try sending your kids to a school in a poor, high-crime area and tell me I'm wrong.
2
We also moved from "3" school on Greatschools to a "9" school.
You are right, in terms of quality of facilities and quality of teachers, exactly the same.
You are also right that the only difference is quality of parents.
But boy, what a difference that makes.
My daughters are surrounded by the children of happily married, stable adults who value education. Her friends use good manners, generally model positive behavior, and strive and encourage each other to succeed academically. Their families model stable family life and marriage as the norm. Parents are highly involved in the community.
This is about 80% of a "good education", and it, along with living in a community with low crime (we were broken into twice in our old house) is worth every penny.
10
Over the past year, with the backdrop of the national political landscape and concerns about the hegemony of the Republican party, there has been various media discussion about Asian-American voters. Generally, this demographic votes Democrat.
But there is no question that the Asian-American community is taken for granted.
The Mayor's statements and actions do not acknowledge or solve the real issue. Moreover his actions are harmful to the Democratic party.
37
We will never achieve equality of outcome among different races and ethnicities. If you disagree with this, please point out any town, city, state or country where this has been achieved.
24
Why is it that Asian-Americans are always the ones paying the price to correct some inequity between blacks and whites? Because Asian-Americans historically do not vote as a bloc or vote at all.
Asian-Americans play by the rules and win, and everytime that happens, the powers that be change the rules.
So now de Blasio wants to admit the top 10% of each school to ensure more blacks and hispanics, but does he actually know who comprise the top 10% of the poorest schools in the poorest districts of the city? Surprise, surprise -- given that Asian-Americans comprise the highest percent of those living in poverty in NYC -- it's Asian-Americans!
So it will come to pass that under the new rules, Asian-Americans will again come out on top. Next time, the establishment will change the rules again, but next, time, Asian-Americans will be better organized and politically more powerful.
12
They are not overlooked. Like many immigrants, they live in communities where other Asians live, many do not speak English and they prefer to fly below the radar. They share cultural norms which differ from non-immigrants.
Now they risk being deprived of the equivalent of a free prep school education (worth over $100,000) for their children and are speaking out.
6
This is one of the pernicious effects of identify politics.
38
So once again poor people are fighting over the scraps handed down to them from on high. Instead of fighting over seats at 6 schools, why aren't all these minority groups demanding better conditions at the city's 1700 other public schools?
8
True Blue, you highlight the real question that needs to be addressed!! The African American and Latinx communities in NYC (and all New Yorkers really) should not be supporting pushing Asian Americans out of 6 schools to open up spaces in those schools for African American and Latinx students--they should be forcing the Mayor to make many many more NYC schools the type of school that offers the same opportunities as the current 6 super-schools. It should not be a zero-sum game. Improve the schools, Mayor, and thereby increase the spaces available, rather than making NYC's deserving minority students fight among themselves for an artificially-limited number of spaces!
7
American population generally does not consider south Asians as Asians.Except in official race based calculations. South Asians are about 3 -4 times the size of European population. Then you include east asians to them. Another 1.5-2 billion population. In admissions and race criteria, it does not make sense to treat half of the world's population as a single homogeneous population. When the differences between them in color, , looks, culture, religion are huge.
3
Free exam tutoring for the entrance tests is available to all NYC public school students, along with prep workbooks. Instead of insisting on racial quotas why doesn't the Mayor encourage underrepresented communities to take great advantage of those programs? Surely he doesn't believe that children of poor Asian immigrants (often not native English speaking) are any smarter than his favored minorities.
34
I feel empathy with Asian Americans when I read about Harvard's attempt to limit admissions based on race with the flimsy excuse of 'personality traits'. Now I read that 'progressives' --a term losing its meaning-- now want to exclude Asians from inclusion under the banner of 'people of color'. So what does it mean today to be an Asian-American. Jews were the victims of restrictive quotas in Ivy League schools for many decades. Now it appears that Asians have taken their place. Is this truly what liberalism stands for?
128
While I do think that all communities should have been at the table, I do not think the fact that this may eliminate spots for Asian and white students is the point. The point is that black communities are extremely underrepresented. and it is irrelevant that to correct that other individual kids or communities will have fewer spots. There is no way around that as there are only so many spots open at the schools. I'm sorry that this is seen as negatively affecting Asian communities, but their kids should be no more entitled to a good education than any other child. I know that there is prejudice against Asians, and "model minority" status is another form of racism, but the systemic racism is a huge problem in America that dramatically impacts black children and limits opportunities. Sorry, I am very progressive, but this position by Asian Americans in New York reeks of entitlement and a defense of educational privilege!
6
What's so entitled about the children of a cabbie or a cook studying for hours and hours to improve their future opportunities?
28
Green Sangha, don’t think it’s irrelevant to the students who will be denied spots at these elite high schools and shoved out of the way to make room for those chosen because it’s the “politically correct” thing to do. And I’m sick and tired of hearing that Asian Americans are “entitled and privileged”.
Yes, I’m Asian American and attended Bronx Science. And I also grew up in Inwood, not the Upper East Side so why don’t you try to understand how my friends and I from a poor and middle class neighborhood got into Bronx Science. We worked and studied hard to get in! We didn’t “own” admission to this elite high school...
13
This is just the beginning.
The percentage of the US population that is Asian will grow significantly over the next two decades, and the percentage of Black and white young people will decline. (There is great data in Nathan Grawe's new book).
If you're a big city mayor, you won't be able to bank on the old coalition of white and black progressives. This will require change on all sides. Asians will have to engage more consistently in the political system.
17
As a fellow minority, it is difficult for me to muster up any sympathy for the supposed plight of Asians in NYC. Once the restriction on Asian immigration was lifted in 1965, and up until now, (East) Asians have come to American with the idea that blacks/Latinos are inferior, ideas developed by the notion of their "pure-blood" and the effects of white news media on how blacks/Latinos are seen in the U.S.
Therefore, during the Civil Rights Era, and yes, up until present day, Asians have, by and large, not been a vocal supporter of ANY progressive movement. Many of them feel keeping their heads down and being the "model minority" (which means really means they work hard and don't question their place in American society) will protect their status. They inter-marry/date white people at a higher rate than any other minority group, yet they are still not seen as anything other than a bothersome minority.
So, here we are; the chickens have come home to roost. From the bamboo ceiling (while the number of Asian college graduates is very high, the number of Asians in senior management positions-in all arenas- is absurdly low, especially amongst East Asians) to the "discrimination" they are facing in the higher education, Asians are looking for allies. Good luck, and God bless.
6
You're painting with a broad brush of monolithic stereotypes and incorrectly assuming Asians are trying to garner "sympathy". This is about the pattern of behaviors and decisions yielded by a white power structure to create a historical narrative and educational system that pits non-white groups against each other and to manipulate the powerless. You may not want to be the "ally" you think Asians are looking for, but perhaps there will be others who can see this for what it truly is - the need to politically dismantle the white-puppeteering of the many ethnic constituencies who make up this city.
7
Unlike blacks or US-born Latinos, Asians face the unique challenge of being almost always immigrants, with a language barrier that is not even remotely close to their native languages. And with such homogeneous countries whose audiences Hollywood ignores (and often mocks), many native-born Asians have never even seen a black or Latino person in real life.
It also doesn’t help that many blacks and Latinos are similarly racist toward Asians—looters in the LA riots exclusively targeted Asian-owned stores, thinking the storeowners “weak” and “submissive.” Such mentality still kills Asian storeowners today.
9
Well Jared Wood, contrary to your opinions, the East Asians in my family all came to America thinking that Black Americans were unfairly oppressed by White Americans.
It was only after an astonishing percentage of them were violently robbed by Black Americans that they came to see things differently.
7
NYTimes: "In 1971, state legislators passed the Hecht-Calandra Act, which protected the test-based admission process for Bronx High School of Science, Brooklyn Technical High School and Stuyvesant High School, the three specialized high schools at the time. The administration of John V. Lindsay was attempting to increase the number of black and Latino students at the schools, which were nearly 90 percent white. The law represented a backlash to that effort." The test had racist intent.
Why are most city schools failing their students? Why are schools in the most diverse city so segregated? Racist real estate policies, for one. And plain racism: whites in midtown west pushed for a new HS so their kids wouldn't be in a school with "those" youngsters.
Asians wouldn't attend Flushing High, depressing its test scores, resulting in Bloomberg shutting it down. Asian shopkeepers there have notoriously locked their doors when black customers approached. Racism works both ways.
There are plenty of issues bound up in this matter.
5
The complaint about school admissions changing is absurd. For starters, Asian kids get a class rank and state tests, too, so as long as they do well in those areas, they will not be denied anything. Secondly, whenever a test shows over and over again that only a certain ethnic group does well on it, it is time to reexamine the legitimacy of the test itself. This is why many colleges de-emphasize SAT scores in admissions; they understand that the SAT has a bias for white students. Changing the system so that more Black and Hispanic kids have a fair shot should not offend Asians or anyone else.
7
Holistic admissions was put in by Harvard in the early 20th century because Jews did too well on the entrance exam. Holistic admissions are just a way to keep out unpopular minorities, on the most part. Now they want to keep out the Asians.
10
Once again it shows they, yes, I mean elite DEM, DO NOT care people's socioeconomic, social justice, equal opportunity. Everything is about the color of your skin, under the name of anti-racism.
22
What is wrong with rewarding students based on their merit and not their race? I don't want to hear that some minorities can't afford test prep classes to get into the specialized schools. Asian kids come from some of the poorest families in the city. If you're smart enough to get into these schools, there is no reason you should be rejected just to get diversity levels up. This is the dumbing down of America. I mean, when I watch the NBA finals and see 10 black players on the court, I'm watching the best there is. No one is complaining about diversity there.
58
Why didn’t Mayor DeBlasio include Asian Americans in his consideration of this policy change? Because he knew they were the targets and he didn’t think that any fuss they kicked up wouldn’t amount to much. That’s blatant discrimination of the worst kind because it tries to pit minorities against each other.
It’s not that his policy is so bad; it’s his exclusionary process that’s so troubling. You don’t correct a wrong with another wrong.
I wonder if he is even aware of the statistic cited in the article that Asian Americans are amongst the poorest in the city. And he wants to give them the back of his hand?
What to do? Vote for leaders who’ll stand up for us, all of us. Not necessarily Republicans. Speak out. We have voices. Let them be heard.
47
BWTNY-
"Not necessarily Republicans"?!?! DEFINITELY NOT REPUBLICANS! Don't lose sight of the real focus of the Republican Party--the white majority. No one else matters to them.
4
This is the fundamental problem with the Left and why the Trump era is just getting started. Asians come here, put their heads down and do the work without complaint, without their “leaders” proclaiming their victimhood, and when they succeed, the Left want to change the rules. Equality does NOT mean equality of outcome.
55
Fortunately, Harvard University, through its admission process, has helped us learn that "as a race", Asians have the kind of personality that doesn't contribute to "diversity" when it exists in large numbers.
21
It is time for the Asia-American community to realize that the Democratic party is not their natural home.
This is similar to the Jewish community, which is also a heavy supporter of Democrats, and who also have not figured it out yet.
The Democratic Party of 2018 is also about supporting the Black and Latino communities with income redistribution.
If you want to study and work hard to get ahead, the Democratic party is not for you.
54
G-
How crazy. "If you want to study and work hard and get ahead, the Democratic Party is not for you" is just preposterous code for the typical Republican mantra of "everybody for themselves," which of course (and by intention) favors the white wealthy majority and utterly disregards minority communities and those in the middle and struggling economic levels. To suggest that the Republican Party is or ever has been a welcoming home to Jewish people or Asian Americans or African Americans is a grotesque fallacy. The Republicans care only about themselves and about maintaining the status quo which favors them. The Democrats and their policies are founded on the notion that the government and its ppl have an obligation to see that everyone has equal access. Republicans for others? Don't be ridiculous!
2
I completely agree with this. I've been a Democrat since I could vote but things that have been brought to light since Trump gained office has made me jump off the bandwagon. I will never be a Republican but the Democrats have shown over and over again that they value Blacks and Hispanics over Asians and will gladly throw Asians under the bus anytime they can to achieve "equality." Similarly, Democrats show that they care way more about protecting the rights of illegals than they do the rights of legal immigrants in this country. I will be voting for Independents from now on, I just wish more people would run as Independents so there is a good group of potentials to choose from.
14
This is the problem with the current Democratic Party. Career politicians like DeBlasio with zero governance skills are destroying the future of our great nation. We live in an extremely competitive world an we need to have an environment which is fair, objective and competitive. But DeBlasio is interested in identity politics for the lust of power. Actually, Trump the con man is driven by the same ideology. It is a shame and disgrace that people elect someone like DeBlasio as the mayor of the great city of New York. New York special schools have done a great job producing outstanding scientists and professionals. Now, the identity politics chief has dismantled a great system for his personal gain. This is the reason many fair minded democrats have left the party and don’t vote.
17
Interesting... in the 60's I studied studied studied and studied some more to do well on the exam and make Brooklyn Tech. Then I did it all again to get in to Brooklyn College (there were actually grade requirements to get in back then. Gasp!)
Now here come the "Progressives" raised in the "everybody gets a trophy" childhood demanding "everybody gets in to Brooklyn Tech" otherwise GASP! we would have to say the dreaded word No word
16
I often read comments from people who seem to be under the impression that any student can just be admitted to the four year CUNY colleges with any type of academic record. Admission to Brooklyn College is actually quite competitive with an admission rate of around 40%. The same is true of Baruch, Hunter, City and Queens Colleges. Even the less competitive four year CUNY schools do not have open admission. There is only open admission at the two year CUNY schools which are the community colleges of the CUNY system.
4
Lefties refuse to acknowledge the undisputed scientific evidence that racial groups generally perform quite differently in multiple relevant areas including: IQ intelligence testing, standardized academic testing, academic achievement, occupational choice and success, family and community values, etc. The Lefties simply blame certain disparities on institutional racism in their quest to establish a perpetual grievance with a universal adaptor.
18
Problem is, of course, that we assume that the schools are the sole determiners of academic outcomes. This ignores research which shows that factors such as the educational level of the mother and socio-economic status have strong effects. The schools cannot do it alone.
13
Any country needs to provide their best education to the brightest because it is they that will be future leaders. But any student should be given equal opportunity which means equal facilities and equal teaching standards. Easy to say but probably impossible to achieve.
No nation seems to have managed equal opportunity and so has settled for picking the brightest.
8
Can you really have equal opportunity without equal effort? How do you ensure equality of effort?
15
Well, I guess effort will depend on individual students, their family environment. (Are there books in the house? Do parents help with homework when required? When there are problems at school, do parents work with teachers to deal with them or take sides?).
I don't think it is the responsibility of the state to try to ensure equality of effort (except in the disciplinary sense). People have to take responsibility for themselves.
1
Sounds like the real issue is that NYC needs a couple of more specialized high schools to accommodate all the excellent students who would thrive there. That's a better solution than denying the opportunity of otherwise qualified students to attend such a school.
86
Exactly right. The real issue is more schools with higher quality teaching and outcomes. This episode is a sad reflection on the poor quality of governance in NYC.
5
Chancellor Carranza's statement was vile. Imagine the outcry if he had been referring to another ethnic group! The fact that he doubled down on it and did not apologize is appalling. If he truly feels that the admissions to the specialized high schools are inequitable he will have to start a lot earlier than the end of middle school to make up the difference.
243
The Chancellor's position in NYC is whle at the same time difficult to fill, and despite media visibility, essentially a figurehead! But realize, if you hire a mediocrity, you get a mediocrity! Sort of a catch 22.
6
It's just appalling to me that a public official would make such a racist remark and not be dismissed.
12
Yes, the Chancellor's statement is outrageous.
I'm sure the New York Asian community doesn't feel that they own these selective admissions but instead that they earned them!
11
Is this kerfuffle all political theatre on both sides? The article says that any changes in three (and possibly all) specialized schools require acts of the state legislature. I presume also the sign off of one Andrew Cuomo, whose dislike of deBlasio is hardly concealed.
So, I see this as "Hizzoner" cementing his left flank with activists, at no great cost, as the changes are unlikely to occur. It also gives Gov. Cuomo, in an election fight, a chance to play shining knight with East Asian voters by putting the kibosh on the proposed change. Win,win for both.
10
Diversity is for blacks, not other races.
71
Of course you're being facetious or tongue-in-cheek. However, in this world, education is very important in getting ahead. High grades are very important to qualifying for special schools or universities. Perhaps, as several readers wrote, MORE schools could be a partial answer to trying to solve the issue of not enough minority students beng accepted to high-ranking and specialized schools.
1
As an Asian, I can understand the frustration of being taken for granted. However, Asians are resourceful and will figure out that to get around De Blasio's plan, all they need to do is to enroll in the less elite middle schools. This will improve their chances of entering the City's elite high schools. At the end of the day, I predict that the Asian population in the elite high schools will increase; not decrease.
23
Your fortitude is to be admired....but when you have a Progressive mayor who is seeking a desired outcome, not really caring how it is achieved...the situation looks somewhat more dire.
4
Just like Asians figured out a way around Harvard’s stereotyping them as having bad personalities for the purpose of reducing their percentage by half. Not.
7
It's likely true that the Asian community will adjust to the new rules and end up in the same or better place. By trying to push it through immediately (where it takes years to pick and complete middle school) the Mayor is ensuring that for a three-four year period the schools will become more diverse, then the adjustment-The losers are kids who are now in good middle school.
In the end there will be an adjustment, and may even have a good side effect of lifting mediocre middle schools. But (1) the policy will reduce the quality of the specialized high schools (Many middle schools have NO students MEETING the low standards on statewide proficiency exams) and (2) by proposing an immediate rollout rather than phase in, people who have chosen good middle schools are disadvantaged.
I have no real dog in this fight (my child is already in high school), but I will note that my child's middle school (which put about 1/3 of the kids into Specialized High Schools) didn't succeed because of some genetic superiority or because of rich parents (it has a high school lunch percentage), but because the majority of the kids invested afterschool and Saturday mornings growing up studying and spent their 7th grade summer (and vacation money for some families) studying for the SHSAT exam. These kids will succeed in Stuy+ not because they are smart, but because they know how to work...The mantra in the [Asian majority] middle school was always "you can achieve with hard work"
5
As a society, we should value excellence. The fact that so many elementary and middle schools are not making up for the short comings in some childrens' lives is sad. I believe that with the right educational structure at the elementary and middle school level, the children of a single parent of any race can succeed just as well as the children of an affluent couple. By focusing so much on race we have done a huge disservice to our own society. Focus on excellence. Set standards and keep putting resources into elementary and middle schools until the students meet those standards. That is the ONLY way to solve educational disparraties later in life without trampling the rights of other people.
This is such a truth to me, that I can only wonder at the emotional dynamics that cause people to advocate for any other solution, including the incredible racial vitriol with which it has become norm for people to spew out.
We can overcome. We can overcome any societal barrier whatsoever with a focus on excellence at the correct, early stage of the education process.
9
While I agree it is difficult to overcome these issues, it is certainly not possible. There are *plenty* of academically successful children that come from broken homes and homes that don't place an emphasis on education.
The more pressing problem is that by hearing over and over again that their lives are not worthy, that the system is against them, and that there is no hope, they give up before even getting to the starting line.
Properly implemented after school support programs in underperforming schools can and would have a positive effect. Create structure and set the bar high. Expect excellence and show that they can reach it, then watch what happens.
Even the president can come from a broken home.
It is going to take more than higher expectations to improve the school performance of students who come from semi-functional homes in poor neighborhoods. It is going to take lots of educating parents that taking school seriously is worth the effort for their children because it is the best way for their children to have better lives than they (the parents) have. Then it is going to take a lot of support for parents who want to do the right thing for their kids but are financially strapped and too busy working two or more jobs each to take the time to help their kids with schoolwork. Maybe if NYC put some serious resources into getting younger students and their families the help they need to get started well in school instead of hunting for quick political fixes that are almost certainly doomed to failure the end result would be much more positive. That would be what leaders who cared about kids would do. Sorry, but rigging the system to create a new set of temporary winners and losers based on race and ethnicity instead of ability is just not going to work.
6
In the 1960s I did some of the earliest research on busing black children from Boston public schools to the white suburbs. The stresses (travel time, hostility, overt racism, increased academic competition) on the black kids were substantial, but even worse was the fact that the Boston schools had not remotely prepared their students to compete at the same grade levels as their peers in the suburbs.
Integration is a worthy goal, but it makes no sense to dumb down the entrance criteria for NYC's specialized schools in order to meet some politically-defined and arbitrary racial quota. Doing this will lead to failure for many or even most of the students so admitted, and will force many teachers to teach down to the lowest common denominators. Specialized schools will also need to set up tutorials and remedial classes for the "challenged" students, which will require more funds and personnel.
All of the above steps may result in a few more minority students making it into and through the specialized schools; however, many of these students will then be stigmatized as the product of affirmative action rather than having been selected on merit.
Unfortunately, de Blasio's plan will cause many parents whose qualified kids are shut out of the specialized schools to move to the suburbs or send their kids to private school.
The (very expensive) answer is not to water down the selection criteria for the specialized schools, but to improve all schools. Now that would be leadership.
229
this is the real problem (besides fairness) with affirmative action: it stigmatizes the kids who get it, they don't do as well (or sometimes teachers inflate their grades so they drop out less), their self-confidence is hurt, they drop out more. no one believes they earned (even if they would have without racial quotas.)
it's a terrible mess - designed to make everyone feel better about the optics. but the kids are actually cannon fodder in this scheme.
9
Picture Stuyvesant. If you’re seeing a building, you’re wrong; if you’re seeing special teachers, you’re wrong. If you’re seeing special, excellent students, you’re right; they are Stuyvesant.
First, consider the good, but mostly not excellent students who will make up the new student body. Their school, whatever its name, will no longer offer so many high level advanced classes - because many fewer students will be interested in them, or capable of profiting from them. The Stuyvesant cachet, competitive academic excellence, will no longer be the admissions expectation of the very top colleges - who are seeking the extraordinary, not the good. The good students will be attending a good school, but it will have none of the special virtues of today’s Stuyvesant.
Most of the students who would have passed Stuyvesant’s entrance exam will now find themselves academically homeless, dispersed among neighborhood schools. These schools, denuded of the top middle schoolers, will not be especially congenial to these few racial minority students interested in academics. The advanced placement classes essential to consideration by top colleges will mostly not be available to them, crippling their futures. Their high school years, which would have been filled with fellowship and the thrill of hard fought academic successes, will be years of misfit misery.
It is not necessary or moral to destroy the futures of our best students.
89
Charlierf:
You seem to be under the misapprehension that application to Stuyvesant or say Bronx Science involves submitting transcripts, scores, recommendations and grades--something akin to applying to a private college, say a very selective one like Williams.
It doesn't. Admission is based on the score one 4 hour test, a version of the SSAT (that's the private high school name), which can be studied for.
Now of course most middle school students who do very well on that test are also generally good class work students.
But if you're a very good student, don't do well on that test, you don't get into Stuyvesant.
3
The New York State exams the Mayor points to are fine for comparing kids’ progress to their expected grade level, but they’re not designed to separate the good from the excellent. The Stuyvesant entrance exam is designed to do exactly that.
By comparing good to excellent, you may wonder if I’m insulting the good students; not at all. After all, this entire discussion is about academics, not other virtues. The academically excellent are not better people, not better citizens, not better neighbors, but they are better students, better able to take advantage of high level academic opportunities.
1
Charlierf:
And the point is this selective NYC highschool test can be studied for. It has little to do with being simply a very good to excellent student.
Ever heard of coaches and studying for the SATs, GMAT, LSAT, etc? This is exactly the same.
As I wrote, and you missed, excellent students may not do especially well on this test.
It also raises serious problems of "teaching to the test".
Indeed the over reliance on SATs, etc, dumbs down very selective colleges and universities.
deBlasio's move to water down the specialized high schools is designed to upset Chinese-Americans in particular. You have to think they way he and the progressives think. It looks good to elements of his base in the black community to be perceived as punishing Asians who are taking 'too many' of the specialized high school seats. I live a few blocks from Staten Island Tech HS, one of the specialized high schools. It's enrollment is 46% Asian in a borough that is 77% white, in a neighborhood that is 72% white. Maybe white parents should demand more seats at Tech? Absurd of course. The SHSAT doesn't know the race of the test-takers.
deBlasio's ultimate unspoken goal is to drive the White ethnics and Asian-Americans out of the city. But that's another topic entirely.
76
What is an Asian?
Asia is geography. Asia is not color aka race. Asia is not ethnicity nor national origin. Asia is not theology.
Nikki Haley is Asian. So is Elaine Chao. And so are Harry B. Harris, Jr. , Kimora Lee Simmons, Fareed Zakaria, Zalmay Khalizad and Gary Locke.
6
You forgot Elizabeth Warren.
5
"Asia is geography." So is Africa.
2
Asian lives matter.
101
GMAB (give me a break)!
Most Asian parents push their children very hard in terms of getting an excellent education. I'm not sure how high schools work in NYC, but here in Montreal, students are accepted to high-ranked high schools based on interviews, grades, and qualifications. Students are able to travel to other areas of the city in order to be in a higher-rated school, so long as they meet the qualifications criteria
2
Perhaps a deeper examination of why children of Asian backgrounds are doing better is also in order; could it be their family structures are better in shape than other minority’s?
68
The Bell Curve, while highly controversial in it's policy proposals is wholly scientifically uncontroversial. Different populations are different.
13
Whatever the reason for the high percentage of academically successful Asian students, by all means study it and try to spread it to all less successful minorities plus whites as well. And if it is resisted or belittled then that’s it, keep the entrance exam and let the numbers speak for themselves.
7
I’m a Democrat and Asian and lived in NYC for years. I think this is a sign that the NYC Democratic establishment does not care about Asians even though we’ve organized, donated, and supported Democrats for years. I think this means that we should mobilize the 15% Asian population in NYC and vote De Blasio and anyone who agrees with him in city government out of office. That’s the only way these sleazy politicians feel the pain. Donate to their opponents, canvass for their opponents, form super PACs for their opponents, and vote for their opponents.
Instead of solving problems, De Blasio just wants to do some window dressing. School segregation is a big problem and the real problem is the fact that rich white kids live in the suburbs while everyone else is in the city. If he seriously wants to solve school segregation he needs to revamp zoning, fund high poverty school 10x, and raise a higher city-wide property or land tax to get those revenues to pay for the reforms that people actually need. Also he needs to ban/tax private schools massively so that rich white residents will have a stake in the public schools. But no, instead he blames the population (not even one ethnic group...Asians are many ethnic groups) with the highest poverty rate in the city but yet achieves the highest admission based on a mostly objective test and these kids grow up in families that barely speak English. These families work the worst jobs and yet they still scrimp to make it work.
212
I don't think banning Yeshivas is a good thing or will help public schools.
2
Vote Republican, "What do you have to lose?"
2
He should absolutely not ban or tax private schools. We need some educated kids and with the elite public schools under attack, the private schools are just about the only place that can happen.
Furthermore, every kid sent to private school represents a huge subsidy to the public school system since their parents pay taxes to send their kids to public school and then pay *again* to send them to private school.
2
These policies of reservations and quotas are exact reason, Talented Indians are going abroad and staying there enriching other nations. First thing, anyone with kids think before buying house is, how are the schools in the area. Under new Tax law, NY-NJ are already gonna suffer price wise, and these policies will hurt education quality. Its double whammy. So why are educated people, staying in NYC?
9
Success is not politically correct. I attended one of the “elite” schools. We were lower middle class. Even if test prep had existed at that time, we couldn’t have afforded it. Even though it was the late 50s, there were students of every ethnic, racial and religious group. Some became world famous. Sorry to break the bad news, but here’s the problem: everyone is NOT equal. some folks are taller, some are shorter, some are faster, some are slower, some are richer, some are poorer, some are stronger, some are weaker, some are smarter, some are less smart. Everyone has a chance to take the test. Some won’t make it. Dumbing down the selection process is not the answer.
290
A 10-term white Democratic Congressman with national ambitions was just tossed out for forgetting about his changing constituents. Let that be a warning shot to any politician who continues to ignore and act against Asian Americans who have been too used to suffering in silence. Many are apolitical because of oppressive regimes in their original countries when it comes to seemingly lofty ideals like free speech. But when it comes to education, watch out!
108
This article was long overdue so thanks for finally putting it out there. Asians have always been overlooked in American politics unless it was convenient to bring them in--often as a way to placate other minority groups. Asians and whites perform similarly so to placate other groups, let's figure out a way so Asians can take the fall while the whites are unharmed--this keeps playing out over and over again with affirmative action, with what's going on in the restructuring of NYC schools, with the conviction of the Asian police officer while nothing has ever happened to any of the white officers who have shot unarmed Black people.
I'm not arguing that Asians should be part of the "white privilege" club, what I am saying is that it's time for whites to stop using Asians as a shield. And it would also be nice change of pace if other minorities would stand up for Asians as well. Asian families, typically, place very high value on education--they often go without basic necessities, let alone wants, to make sure their kids are doing everything they can, both in terms of education and extracurricular activities, to get prepared for college admissions. Instead of punishing a group of people who actually try hard and pretty much never complain about the injustices done on them, why don't we try to get other groups recognize that rewards only come with hard work and should never be handed out just because of your race.
142
There are many reasons that explain statistical differences on admissions to elite public schools. Some are based on ugly unspoken biases and cruel inertia, but solutions that pit one part of a powerful coalition against another at a time when standing together against the existential threat of one party rule need to be rejected. We need each other, now more than ever.
4
Funny how only Stuyvesant finally sets the community into action
2
The language in this article: "overrepresented", as if the asian kids did something wrong? "Segregated"? Seriously? The flippant use of the this term implies that some law purposely excludes students because of race.
214
I mean African Americans are pushing to argue that math and science is racist so I'm not surprised this is the slant that NYC is taking with their politicians and Struvie. It'll only get worse as there seems to be no backlash or criticism at all when they raise these ridiculous claims.
13
when it comes to Asian kids and discrimination, there is always an undercurrent of real resentment. it is very disturbing.
10
Exactly. "Disproportionate" is another favorite word NY Times uses when referring to Asians in any kind of education issues, as if everything has to be proportional to the percentage of population.
NYT never seems to use similar language for other groups, such as most crimes in NYC are committed by certain groups disproportionately. (Local crime coverage by NYT is pathetic as it is.)
Every time I see an NYT article about Asians and education (Special High Schools in NYC, Affirmative Action, etc), I am one step closer to cancelling my NYT subscription...
7
DeBlasio doesn’t engage; he dictates and pontificates.
Test scores should continue to be the standard and if other minorities need help they should get it. DeBlaio is big on pronouncements but his substance is either pure puffery or politically motivated. His only friends are developers.
As to his clueless schools Chancellor, he was a second voice and he’s a bully.
114
This showes once again that liberals value race over merit.
100
I'm a liberal. I don't like the mayor's idea. So....
5
Maybe we should have a real discussion about why Asians do so well in these tests and Black and Hispanic kids don't. It's not simply a matter of racism. Look at family structure in the black and Hispanic community, where fathers are often missing in action and kids don't get the support they need, as opposed to many Asian families where kids are expected to study, study and study more, and where they go to public school and then have classes in their respective languages.
152
you're absolutely right. Of course no one wants to talk about the elephant in the room - it's more convenient to scapegoat the Asians. When it comes to the dysfunction of some minority communities, it's "see no evil, hear no evil." What hypocrisy!
16
As an Asian-American, it's more than family structure. How do I know? I was raised by a single mom. But I was expected to learn and achieve at my highest level.
Chinese society has revered education for thousands of years, exemplified by the grueling civil service exams candidates had to take to become imperial court officials. Legend is that one could be poor but make it to the top through hard work. Although this is not necessarily made explicit, that's the underlying tradition.
With other culture, the traditions may be less about reading/ writing and more oral or demonstrative (i.e. showing how one does something) in nature. In any case, it goes beyond just family structure.
8
I am really surprised this group is complaining. geez.
7
Why would you be surprised? Yes, Asian Americans are considered overrepresented in the city's schools (and also the Ivy League, UC system, etc.). But let's not forget that there is just as much - if not more - poverty in the Asian American community as in other communities of color. Couple that with still-widespread racism and lack of cultural awareness among most Americans. The fact that Asian Americans have succeeded despite being largely immigrants and not being native English speakers should be applauded, not punished. Other groups would do well to put more emphasis on education and parental involvement and complain less.
26
This is a interesting story, but Mayor de Blasio, the New York Times editorial board and the school superintendent have already headlined: "New York Democrats to Asian Educational Strivers: Drop Dead.
They intend this, and it is going to breakup the Democratic Party ethnic coalition in California and New York, unless the Supreme Court ends racial preferences in education, first.
114
Should the NBA and NFL institute a height and weight restriction so certain ethnic groups of smaller stature are able to compete?
If an ethnic group dominates in any specific field so be it. Let talent and hard work determine who gets in.
Lowering the standards will dilute the product in any field.
322
Talent and hard work-they score higher on a test. I guess this demonstrates talent in test taking and hard work in taking test prep courses. The NY public school system must be the only one in the country that admits its students based solely on a three hour test. My Alma Mater, the University of Chicago, has just announced that it will not require any test scores.
During most of Chinese history appointment to the Emperor’s massive bureaucracy was determined by a test. Passing this test was the only way to become one of the Emperor’s bureaucrats. Admission to this group was very prestigious and entitled the successful applicant to wear a special uniform and progress upward through the various ranks within the bureaucracy. So , a man’s success in life was literally dependent on passing one test. The percentage of men who passed these tests was minuscule. Boys studied very hard to pass this test and parental pressure to pass was tremendous.
This system died with the Empire, but one can easily see the cultural forces still at work. The trouble is that Europeans never had this system. Hard work has always been a requirement for success in one’s chosen profession, but passing a test has never been in and of itself proof of hard work.
1
How about Greek diners. Should they really all be allowed to be monopolized by, uh...Greeks?
3
For what it's worth, there is a strong case to be made that the NBA has/is treating Jeremy Lin differently because the general population doesn't expect someone of Asian ancestry to be able to do the things he does. There is also an argument that Abacus bank was treated much more harshly by NY Attorney General's office than a comparable bank in another neighborhood
For the most part I agree with what you are saying but I can see why Asians would feel overlooked.
6
I used to be a Democrat because I thought they most represented the interests of working people. But this whole episode with de Blasio and the specialized schools have removed the scales from my eyes. How easily he thought to demolish the gems of the NYC public school system that educated generations of working class people of all stripes, all in the name of scoring cheap political points. I will now be voting Republican or Independent on all state and local elections, and I encourage anyone, of any race, who believes in fairness and equality of opportunity to do the same. No one party 'owns' NYC politics and I think it is time to teach Democrats that lesson.
121
B, this sort of 'teach them a lesson' mentality is what brought us Donald J. Trump and Betsy DeVos in his train. It will not help.
7
B-
If you believe in "fairness and equality of opportunity" as you state, why in the world would you switch parties and vote Republican? The Dem Mayor in NYC may be acting against the mantra of fairness for all in this NYC super-schools situation, but that in NO way allows for the conclusion that Republicans (in NYC or anywhere else) care one wit for "fairness and equality of opportunity." They do not. Never have. Never will. Try to find a single example of a Republican policy based on "fairness and equality of opportunity." Impossible. The Mayor muddled this one badly--but that does not mean the Democratic Party has abandoned the absolute core value of its existence. Continue to vote Democrat. Unless YOU don't care about "fairness and equality of opportunity."
4
Sumit, CKim, where are the Democrats calling on de Blasio to renounce these patently racist policies? Where are the howls of opprobrium from Democrats condemning Chancellor Carranza for his filthy comments? Until I hear a complete repudiation of these views from the mainstream of the Democratic Party I cannot vote for them in local and state elections. I also approve of Republican efforts to roll back Affirmative Action. Now if Republicans werent often racists, believed in science, and did not feel at liberty to treat the earth like their private toilet I may vote for them more generally.
2
One underlying problem is that the United States has made secondary education a limited and competitive good. Instead of investing in good schools and good teachers for all kids, we underinvest, then concentrate scarce resources in a small number of schools. Competition ensues, pitting good parents against each other.
Could this be because it's easier for politicians when progressives and citizens in general fight one another, instead of working together to reverse the gross inequality we suffer under, and to take on the wealthy and corporations whose tax burden has dropped spectacularly over the past generation? If all paid the same share they paid 40 years ago, we'd have enough funding for schools to greatly reduce this dog-eat-dog competitiveness.
31
Maybe the problem is not the money we put into schools, but the effort the children put into academic studies. The results show that children who put more effort into academic study perform better in academic studies, and children who put less effort into academic studies perform less well. Maybe the next study should investigate the emphasis and effort placed on education in the various identity groups in NYC, and see if the results follow from the effort.
31
Ridiculous, schools are a product of the students, bad schools are due to poor quality of students. Throwing more money at the problem will solve nothing
21
The problem is not with the schools or the money we are spending, but with the parents.
Too many kids are living with a single parent. This means the parent is often too busy making money to read or help the child with homework, or to push the kids to excel.
It is not surprising that families with one (or no) parent have issues in school.
Current American culture thinks marriage is obsolete.
How sad and painful, especially for the kids.
6
What are the demographics of the next 10-20 top rank high schools? Why do Asian students feel testing-in is the only way? Do the next five actually admit more Black/Latinx students than the top 3? What is the plan keep the former test-in schools from being overrun with white students with the pushiest parents and most connections?
Funny(not really) how every other educational plan along these lines (interviews, portfolios, recommendations) ends up with the top schools:
-More white students, fewer Asian students
-Black and Latinx enrollment about the same as before
-Non-white communities at each others throats
-Classes slowed down for connected white students with pushy parents
16
Anne,
Where do you get “more White students” in all of this? De Blasio has made it abundantly clear that Asian students will be replaced by Black and Latino students—essentially, quotas.
Look at Harvard’s latest demographic profile: of those admitted to class 2021, 15% are Black, 12% Latino, 22% Asian, and 2.5% Amerindian. Non-Hispanic Whites constitute 62% of the U.S. population but less than 50% of those admitted to Harvard 2021; they’re laughably underrepresented. That’s the outcome de Blasio is after, and he’ll institute whatever policies are necessary to achieve it.
8
As someone who works in the activist communities in NYC, particularly around representation and race, I want to say that nearly everything that black civil rights activists do is meant to ensure the rights of ALL people, and this is the history. Our movements started out with us and ended up including rights for women, elderly, disabled, immigrant, poor, etc etc. It would be a great gift to the many black men and women who have placed their bodies and reputations on the line over the many decades of struggle to have some of the beneficiaries of these actions try to understand and see how opportunity for one is opportunity for all. Our culture tells us it's zero sum but we don't have to believe it.
34
So you’re in favor of what in this discussion? Opportunity for poor Asians who never get heard by the political establishment or are you saying because Asians benefit from the work of black civil rights activists, that Asians should just step back when they’re on the menu for a politically manipulative mayor to not solve segregation at all and make a lot of PR about solving segregation and pretending to help the black community by targeting Asians?
45
bingo!
But it is zero sum with this specific policy proposal - where what is up for grabs is a finite number of high school seats. The Mayor could have expanded opportunity - created more seats/more top schools but no. He chose to pit ethnic groups against ethnic groups and the unfortunate choice of language by his Chancellor (along with his "retweets") makes this very clear.
44
I am afraid that de Blasio’s decision to pursue this change in admissions requirements may have come at the worst possible moment. By taking an extreme approach, rather than a staggered intervention, he may have enhanced the Republican messaging about the woes of affirmative action. The revelations about overt racism toward Asian applicants have left a bad taste in the mouth for anyone who expects ALL of the young applicants to be treated with fairness. I am afraid we are about to witness a massive shift in public sentiment toward affirmative action.
174
Yes we are. And the reckoning could not come soon enough.
18
Ending the systematic institutional racial discrimination known as "affirmative action" is four decades overdue.
The one benefit of Harvard's, de Blasio' s and Carramza's recent callous displays of naked, undisguised racism is that they expose, and thus hasten the end of, the racist "affirmative action" edifice built, but concealed behind a veil of lies, starting in the 1970s.
11
In a city in which it is all about identity politics, Asian-Americans need to flex their muscle. Mayor de Blasio's school policies are designed to hurt Asian-American children just to benefit African-American and Latino children, and he makes no excuses for that. Just because Asian-Americans value education and push their children very hard to excel.
Asian-Americans need to form new political alliances and push hard to protect their interests. Otherwise, other identity groups will push them around, deny a quality education to their children and treat them like unwanted children in their own city.
309
The "school policy" would also benefit white students as well but is rarely discussed -- it's always the "minorities" getting the hand-out. Right?
Success, however one defines it, has never been reducible to test scores or ones place on a bell curve. If that was the case, most of us would not make the cut.
2
I think there is another advantage to this proposed new policy for the mayor and the chancellor. Pushing high-achieving Asian students out of the science schools and into their neighborhood schools would probably raise graduation rates at many city high schools.
2
My husband grew up in the South Bronx and attended the Bronx High School of Science. He graduated more than 50 years ago. From 1968-1981 he taught in the South Bronx and Harlem. Almost all of the students he taught in NYC were Black or Hispanic. He did whatever he could to point his students at Bronx Science or any of the other specialized high schools because he knew the great difference it would make in their lives.
There is a real difference between admitting students who have demonstrated the ability to do the high level work they will need to do to prosper in a specialized high school and admitting those who we hope may be able to do that high level work. We must realize that public schools are a great mirror of the communities where they are located. If we want to balance the ethnicity of the specialized high schools NYC needs to do a much better job of building better communities where students will be encouraged to apply themselves to their schoolwork. Admitting students to these schools based on their race or ethnicity instead of their demonstrated ability will not do much beside dumbing down the high quality of these schools. The Asian community is one where the culture at home is all about learning and doing well in school. The problem is that other groups do not have such a culture. Instead of trying to work around cultures that do not focus on doing well in school NYC should be helping other groups to focus more on schooling and doing well in school.
248
Thank you, Ms. Solien. You nailed it when you wrote, "the Asian community is one where the culture at home is all about learning and doing well in school." I grew up in Asia, where I was influenced by such a valuation of education.
As a NYC public school teacher, I can attest to the fact that other American ethnic groups, including non-Hispanic whites, do not value education to the same degree as Asians. So why should Asians be punished for the relative lack of commitment on the part of others?! Enough!
16
It's time for Asian Americans to leave the Democratic Party, who clearly hold hostile and condescending attitudes towards Asian cultural values. Progressive Democrats' ideology of quotas on the outcomes will continue to harm Asian Americans. With population concentrations in California and the East Coast, Asian Americans can make many Congressional districts at play for the Republican Party. Asian Republicans in Orange County CA are already winning some local elections.
89
Replace "Asian" with "white" and the comment still goes through. Delicious irony.
2
This is exactly the right comment. The argument behind the affirmative action has always been that minority kids are underprivileged and therefore even the gifted ones will have trouble doing well on entrance exams, but once admitted will excel. Asians managed to overcome the economic disadvantaged through their emphasis on education. This should be rewarded. Punishing them instead is unfair and sends the wrong message.
9
I think they left already - nearly 40,000 of them voted for Trump in Florida last election.
1
The worst racism in the NYC Public Schools is the lousy education that most of the children get in the grade schools. Why doesn't the Mayor focus on that?
115
Because it's easier politically to go after high schools "overrepresented" with Asians to secure Latino/Hispanic voters who are seen as more politically active than Asians
de Blasio also knows Asians are cornered in their interests with no other political group to turn to. They're poor so cannot vote Republican. He can pillage and bully them as he pleases because he knows Republicans don't care about poor. The Asians are checkmated unless they switch to Republican. They'll suffer a bit hurting themselves but it would help reform the Democrats who are in desperate need of reform in their own party. Their identity politics and open border strategy failed them 2016, and hypocritical anti-discrimination by bullying and discriminating other minorities is only further splitting Asians and pushing away independents. Liberal media is desperate, recruiting Asian journalists to write in support of racism against Asians, insulating themselves and they may be in shock if they lose more Asian American votes. They look set for harsh results in the near future elections if they don't change.
8
Why hasn’t anyone explored the underlying racism in this “equity” talk that lumps all the different cultures and communities from the vast Asian continent into the term Asians?
A Vietnamese family that fled the communist takeover and landed in the US is very different than a Pakistani family that immigrated because the parents were recruited by the US government for their engineering skills are very different from each other both in terms of their ethnic background and their life circumstances.
It is different in the same way that African-Americans who are descendants from the slave trade vs. a 1st generation immigrant family from Jamaica.
Or the difference between a DREAMer and a privileged “light-skinned” only-child from a rich Argentinian household.
Asians don’t look the same nor do they all come from the same homogeneous background.
But I guess maybe that’s hard to do for a white man purporting to be accepting of all.
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What DeBlasio's actions have shown is that the white liberals are the worst kind of racists. They put on the facade of being progressive and liberal and open-minded; meanwhile they are stabbing Asian-American children in the back and depriving them of meaningful, rightfully deserved opportunities that could affect the course of their entire lives.
White liberals can be so "generous" with social "justice" policies like affirmative action because obviously it's not their children who are paying the price. They are making Asian children, who are frequently poor, with parents who are working class and barely speak English, pay the price of affirmative action by giving up their seats at the table for black and Hispanic kids.
Asians, wake up. The white liberals only care about minorities whom they feel superior to, whom they feel need "help" because they are suffering the most. The white liberals don't view Asians as such minorities, but only as potential competitors and will throw them under the bus to make themselves look good in the name of "social justice." Sure, there are Trump-supporting white supremacists who will insult you with derogatory names, but the whites who are causing true and real harm to the Asians are the white liberals.
95
By devising plans to better diversify the student body at NYC's elite schools, DeBlasio essentially admits that a good school is important to a good education. It would be wonderful if, as other commenters have suggested, he opened more elite schools, both middle schools and high schools. Follow the models of NYC's great schools. Open them in poor-performing districts!! And make some effort - ANY effort - to uplift the quality of ALL of the NYC schools. What exactly is DeBlasio and the devastatingly tone deaf Carranza doing for the system as a whole? Nothing. These solutions would please many and would not snub any particular ethnic group. DeBlasio and Carranza, what do you say?
49
Marge, I agree. But the system-wide improvements that you argue for would be difficult to implement, face resistance, and, most importantly, cost significant amounts of money and likely require additional tax revenues. It is much easier and cheaper, politically and financially, for the Mayor to propose the largely symbolic change in admissions to selective high schools (which, in the end, relatively few students will attend).
4
The NY Times keeps missing the point about the SHSAT.
The reason that affluent white students and Asian students are admitted in disproportionate numbers is that most of their parents pay for test prep. This has little to do with "improving middle schools" because if those top middle schools were so good, none of the parents there would pay one cent extra to have their children tutored or attend expensive classes to prepare them for the SHSAT. And yet they do.
And the "free" test prep offered will never be the same as the very expensive classes and private tutoring that more affluent students receive.
We have an arms race in tutoring and test prep for a single exam. We have defenders of this exam saying "let's encourage even MORE tutoring and test prep." It's ridiculous. The more test prep kids do, the more test prep other kids will do, and the more text prep the first group will do, and the more test prep the other kids will need to do to keep up. And for what?
27
For the last time, it is called studying, not test prep. Test prep is only one piece of the puzzle under the larger behavioral umbrella called "being studious" or "academically oriented".
The repetitive practice looks pointless from the outside apparently, but instills essential sudy skills kids can apply to schoolwork and research once they are accepted.
You do layups and shoot baskeys at basketball practice because it improves your basketball skills. Isn't it obvious? You study during study time because it improves your school skills. This is not a grand mystery for the ages. You study. You do better in school. Period.
Doesn't matter how rich you are, unless the school is corrupt, of course, and has opaque admissions standards. But the test to gain admittance to the specialized school is about as transparent as you can get.
27
Asian immigrants being among the poorest - they are not paying for test prep are they? It is a major misconception.
6
RJ, Asians are the poorest immigrant group in NYC. How does this fact square with your assertion that they are paying for tutors to prep for the SHSAT?
16
In the case of Harvard, Asian applicants were indeed funneled out of the running by bizarre and frankly racist "character" requirements. Here, it just seems like people are mad about others who, historically disenfranchised, might horn in on their action. Why such a focus on a few elite schools? You ought to be able to go to P.S. Whatever and get a fine education.
28
Because NYC does not have enough quality public high schools to meet the needs of students who are looking for a "fine education." This is someone de Blasio should be working on rather pushing his non SHSAT/7% plan.
15
I live in a heavily Asian section of Brooklyn. We continue to be shocked that local election after local election goes by and none of the political parties advertises their candidates in the Asian language that is prevalent in our district. It's almost as if they don't care or don't think that Asian's vote.
46
Everyone knows the black and Hispanic kids currently enrolled at Stuy and Bronx Science earned their place. Unfortunately future kids from these groups will forever be viewed as dumbed down affirmative action cases.
73
I think Chancellor Carranza should be fired for his remark. It is so insulting and racist. If there are not enough seats at the competitive schools, how about opening some more competitive schools? Also, if kids score high on the standardized test and do well in school and are below a certain income, the city has (or at least had a few years ago) a program that provides tutoring classes. If that program doesn't exist, they should bring it back.
85