Great, I will convinced of all this "we wont judge you on your appearance" drivel when a 350lb woman is named Miss America....as if that will EVER happen.
6
If it's not a beauty pageant, what exactly is it? Without a better - or different - kind of competition among females, just junk the whole notion.
3
"I haven’t watched Miss America since I was in middle school, and I was incredulous even then... I looked at them and felt confident I was a different species. " I think this somewhat arrogant author's admission explains why she may be wrong and Piers is right. I doubt Bari and her ilk will start watching the show because bikini contest has been eliminated. But some 'Pierses' may lose interest to it. So, yes, ratings may drop.
2
I’m frankly astonished by the number of men who read an article about women under the male gaze and decided to proffer their views on how women should dress in the comment section.
6
Our basic instinct is to reproduce. This means we are attracted to others that entice us. That is a normal biological need. You know what? There is nothing wrong with taking care of yourself and making yourself look attractive. There is nothing wrong with wanting to look nice. Are you seriously going to want to go near, never mind reproduce with another person who is unwashed, wearing filthy clothes, and has teeth rotting out of their mouth? Of course you are not.
I am tired of the neo-feminist nonsense that to be a modern self-respecting woman you have to walk around as if you are permanently going to work in the corn fields. Feh.
Moreover, there are aisles and aisles of products for men so that they would be attractive as well. It's not just a female thing.
By the way, historically looking nice and being attractive is an important part of society going back to before recorded history, over 5,000 years ago. Ancient Sumerian documents discuss makeup and hair tips. Tell the best way to wax hair off the body. It is simply human nature.
Just get over it already. You don't want to wear a bikini. Don't. You don't want to walk around in yoga pants, don't. You don't want to do a cleanse, don't. You don't want to wear makeup, get a manicure or have your hair dyed, don't. You don't want to exercise, well you should for your health, not to be obsessively thin though.
Just stop with the whining. It's annoying, provincial, pretentious and makes you sound really really silly.
13
I don't see the point of beauty pageant. However, can't most women just admire the small number of beautiful women without the delusion they can be as beautiful by this or that trick like the ones Mrs. Bari recounts in her piece?
3
I salute the intentions of Ms. Carlson for the new pageant, but I'm not sure I understand how it will work. If contestants are not to be judged on physical beauty any more, what will they be judged on? SAT scores? ability to toss a caber? How will they be able to keep out contestants like, say, myself -- who haven't weighed what it says on our drivers' licenses in many a year? Just asking for a friend.
6
When the privileged are comfortable, get what they want, and aren't held accountable for their behavior, they call it fair. When the marginalized come close to attaining even a modicum of equality, the privileged call it oppression.
1
This whole thing is so blindingly hypocritical and ridiculous! Beautiful women always weaponize their good looks to gain advantages in life, and they do it consciously and methodically. Has anyone ever seen ugly or frumpy women sunbathing on the deck of a super yacht? And how come that all the women in high society parties seem to be so beautiful? Has anyone noticed how female celebrities turn up at major public events half naked, showing off their bodies from every angle?
This entire thing stinks of hypocrisy from miles away. Since history began, beautiful women have ALWAYS used their good looks to achieve their objectives, to climb socially, to become rich, and also to jump ahead of the lesser looking ones
Let’s stop pretending that it’s all about men objectifying women. It is pure hypocrisy. Women are more than happy to objectify themselves whenever it suits their interests, so let them have their bikini pageants (which I never watched in my life, for the record).
15
Maybe instead of judging as "good" or "bad" we should observe what's going on. Why does my partner and her daughters choose to spend a Sunday afternoon shopping and getting their nails done? Because they enjoy it. And how does that correlate with other cultures in which women enjoy certain things that are very different from what men enjoy?
A boss of mine years ago bemoaned her high heels, and I questioned why she didn't wear flats. She blamed it on men, "because it's what men expect." BTW, her boss was also a woman.
"Cultural misogyny" is an excuse for materialism and indulgence, the author being a good example, at least with a sense of humor. Male foolishness takes on absurd forms of trucks, weapons, and boring conversations about the stock market or sports. Should we blame women for our shallowness?
Enjoy your pedicure and yoga pants, and don't worry about who notices the results. And don't ever point out to your daughter that she's too "big."
4
Personal taste has a place," boys don't make passes at girls that wear glasses." I think glasses are attractive.
1
Why watch then?
4
One of the unfairnesses of life is that men can use power and money to secure what they want in sex partners, and women can use their looks, whether they call themselves hot, gorgeous, fit, or whatever. This is as true among the "woke" as it is among those whose values are conservative or liberal but not leftist. It's not morally lovely, but it is reality.
9
One of the most awkward aspects of the "beauty pageant of life" is how race is a factor in how many people evaluate attractiveness. It's especially awkward when race is an exclusionary factor in potential romantic relationships. But most people who practice race discrimination in dating will not bluntly admit that for fear of being labeled a racist. This is especially the case in the workplace or in college where there is zero tolerance for any expression of racism.
Ugh. Who cares? The degree to which looks matter varies by the individual. Acting as if everyone subscribes to the same aesthetics is just as judgmental and dehumanizing as what the author portrays. Sure it would be nice if there were less objectifying of women. Let's tear out our eyes or make women wear burqas. Problem solved.
2
I resent how the author keeps saying that "we" women buy into these sexist standards. I and most of my female friends don't get bikini waxes or regularly wear heals. I'm not saying there isn't pressure on women to look a certain way, but it's not impossible to go against the grain. Have some agency, people!
9
I wonder to what extent this makeover and appeal to a better developed social consciousness and empowerment has to do with low TV ratings?
2
Many people hate those beauty contests and pick partners who share interests, understand them, and are comfortable to be around for a long time. I was convinced that I should marry the man who grabbed me by the arm and swung me back on a road like a potato sack when I stepped wrong on a dirt path that was mostly air and was headed down a ravine.
We are entirely past wilderness hiking now, but he's the same person I married over 25 years ago. Looks: both pretty average.
4
"But there was also something strangely honest about it. We are being watched and scrutinized and judged. We are watching and scrutinizing and judging. It is, as Ms. Carlson said, a competition."
Talk about burying the lead. The last paragraph is the most honest. Society, sexual selection, and life itself are all brutally Darwinian. Everything is a competition.
We just no longer have the guts to tell the truth about that. Everyone gets a trophy now, everyone makes the team, everyone has to "feel good about themselves" or lawsuits will be filed and a Twitter mob will form.
Facts are stubborn things, with or without bikinis.
8
Unfortunately beauty is the yardstick that is the measurement that both men and women use to evaluate one another at first glance.
The only difference was a while back is a woman would not admit to such shallowness, but men readily did. Now women talk about mens' appearances as much as men do about women.
Lets call a spade a spade everyone. This is not a new phenomenon.
4
The problem is that if you don’t do all of these exhausting things, someone else will, and thus secure a better chance of attracting ideal mates, preferred socio-economic status, career advancement, prestigious social circles, etc.
3
That was a depressing article. No we don't all live inside the pageant. For me, it never had relevance to my life.
2
If this show is truly a social problem, we live in a paradise.
1
“But saying that women won’t be judged for the way they look is a bit like a Miss Oklahoma or Miss Oregon saying she wishes for world peace.” I think you’re looking at this the wrong way. Maybe the real question is why selection for the Nobel Peace Prize doesn’t include a bikini contest.
5
What about power? "Successful" men and women seek it, and there are entire industries where the likelihood of success or even admission to the profession hangs on one's appearance. The same could be said of sexual misconduct, unfortunately.
If we stop objectifying women the economy will collapse.
Women as:
Decorous objects - used to sell everything from antihistamines to bad beer, and too be wooed with ostentatious displays of wealth (the woo-ees are to be as much reviled as the woo-ers in this transactional relationship)
Objects to decorate - fashion, jewelry, salons, makeup, etc.
Flawed objects to 'fix' - diet food, comfort food for when you fail your diet, cosmetic surgery, exercise classes, exercise wear, cosmetic potions, self help books, celebrity worship merch to inspire emulation, makeup that doesn't look like makeup, spanx, etc
How could the economy possibly survive without the objectification of women?!
6
I guess the question becomes, can this contest flourish in the Me Too era, when much of its raison d'etre has become obsolete?
1
When I go on vacation, I seek beauty. I want my eyes to actually physically see the reality that is natures beauty. Horses are beauty. A butterfly is beauty. The female form is the most beautiful of all of creation. That's why we like to gaze upon it. That's why all the old artists sculpted and painted it. It is beautiful...Now you want to pretend that beauty isn't important....tell that to a peacock.....
6
This reminds me of the movie Little Miss Sunshine, where Alan Arkin as the grandpa teaches his pre-teen granddaughter Abigail Breslin stripper dance moves in preparation for her first "beauty" dance contest as a protest against the early objectivication and sexualization of little girls. It was a hilarious parody of the beauty pageant cult.
But both sexes are highly objectified by our cultural standards. In a patriarchal society, men take the lead in objectifying other men to use them as cannon fodder in wars and in undertaking dangerous jobs (forestry, coal mining, police work being much safer than these other occupations). Bosses objectify male (and female) workers in order to exploit them by making them work harder for more profit. Workplace injuries? Not my problem. Next.
Women objectify men by seeing how big their wallets are and what kind of job prospects do they have. They also increasingly focus on looks - or at least men think so and so now men are having eating disorders and using steroids to pump up.
This is not to downplay how women's bodies are objectified by men. More to point out that our culture and cultural norms forces both sexes to fit narrow stereotypes in order to fit in. And it starts at a very young age with all those beauty pageants for little girls that are going on as we speak.
7
I feel like what's often ignored is the reality that being literate is healthy ... being well educated is healthy ... being socially aware is healthy ... developing hobbies and talents is healthy.
Most importantly being physically fit and attractive is *HEALTHY*.
Maybe bikinis are demeaning well beyond a step over the line of judging someone's good health.. and instead demeaning their humanity and objectifying them.
The brass tacks of the matter is that your appearance is a simple reflection of your physical health. If we are going to have contests that rank individuals based on a healthy educational, personality, and physical ability then we are inevitably going to be incorporating their general appearance into that ranking.
Just the pure idea of ranking men or women in a contest like this is absurd though. We have a contest that tests all of these traits and the rewards of family, happiness, and wealth seem a little better than whatever these pageants could ever offer.
After reading this, I've never felt so happy to be so old.
4
The highlight for me will be when one of the contestants gush over how sexy she finds trump.
Life is a beauty pageant. I'm one of the judges, so are you.
When The Miss America "Competition" includes frumpy women wearing potato sacks and thick glasses I'll believe the lies that they're trying to pull.
I'm just a simple, honest man who enjoys seeing women strutting in bikinis without being accused of misogyny. And so are you, male or female.
7
Ever heard of testosterone? It's been around for millions of years.
4
Beautifully written essay, many profound replies. Thanks all.
America has become such a depressingly sterile, paranoid, sexless place! Go to any country in Europe, or a place like Brazil, and you will see women dressing very well, looking beautiful, with sexual titillation and sensuality everywhere. At night you will see respectful, soft-core porn on public broadcast channels. Older women don't chop their hair off and put on mom jeans like they do here, they make an effort to remain alluring and beautiful. Men also make more effort to stay in shape, dress well, and be attentive to their partners. People recognize that beauty and sensuality are important, positive parts of life, and nobody is offended or feels abused. That's what normal life is like. In America, people are now offended by seeing a woman in a bathing suit, and a Janet Jackson style wardrobe malfunction causes a national meltdown. Yet Americans think they're morally superior to everyone else. They don't even have a clue how much joy they're missing.
5
Beauty pageants always reminded me of dog shows. Even as a senior in high school I can remember being irked at the directive to circle around the room for the teacher chaperones to judge who was to be prom queen.
Then again, I come from a generation in which public schools required skirts or dresses and even culottes were not allowed.
I can remember. feeling so liberated in the early seventies in university when there was no dress code. Young women nowadays don't have a clue how chauvinistic times were back then and they actually probably will have it tougher than my generation as the world closes in and gets more and more damaged by the human race.
4
I just can't agree with the writer, and so many of the commenters, about how a romance starts as far as this appearance thing works.
I met my wife while having beer with a friend who was trying to blur his mind because of a recent operation which was still healing.
This girl walked up to our table at a University, dressed in farmer's overalls which covered her entire body up. The only thing I could see was her face, which didn't have any makeup at all on it. That was the first thing I noticed, her natural beauty.
The next, I was awed by her intellect when she began asking me what I knew about a little known composer named Carl Ruggles who was being championed by Michael Tilson Thomas, then conductor with either Boston or Buffalo. we began to talk about his music, and music in general. I fell in love with her right then and there and have remained in love with her ever since, which on our anniversary coming up in August, G-d willing, will add up to 46 years.
My idea of the challenge of choosing a mate for life is to find one with humor, humility, kindness, a sense of fairness, and warmth. Everything else works out over time.
Oh, tenacity is important too. I had to chase after this lady for half a year before she would even go out with me seriously, but then I was looking for a wife not a few hot nights together.
9
To want to compete for your looks is very clearly an outdated notion in the Me Too era of emphasizing respect and dignity.
2
And yet as W.B. Yeats observes, there is a middle ground that is surely defensible:
“only God, my dear, Could love you for yourself alone And not your yellow hair.’
2
Any man who'd say that is not worth loving, period. :p
1
Remember when Playboy said it was eliminating nudes?
Better yet... remember Playboy? When did you last read it?
3
Why? Why do we have pageants at all?
Why do we go through the process of having people, mostly female people, line up to be judged publicly like livestock?
No more pageants.
Let's evolve.
5
Even as women are objectified by things such as beauty pageants, they still have agency. Speaking as a beautiful woman with brains and accomplishments, I can say that men certainly approach me enough, but I don’t let them in unless they are gentlemanly about it and appreciate my smarts. I have that choice. We can complain about the male gaze driving beauty pageants, but we can also encourage women not to enter them.
4
Modest too?
4
The world and everybody in it is judged on their beauty, those that can't accept that are either willfully ignorant or feel inadequate, that's been my experience....
Not everyone can be beautiful, but we don't have to tear down those that are...
3
A lot of what women do to be beautiful has nothing to do with being attractive to the opposite sex, especially as we get older. It has to do with establishing and maintaining credibility in a harsh world. If we look frumpy, or not put together of as if we have "let ourselves go" we lose respect in the workplace and everywhere else except perhaps at home. Or we become invisible. If we look "good" according to societal standards, at least we have a chance of still being seen and still being respected.
3
The whole contest is stupid. Won't they still be showing their legs and bosoms in the evening gown portion? You know you shouldn't even bother to enter unless you are pretty and skinny and can string a sentence together.
2
I never watched it. I can't think of any reason to watch besides the bikini part otherwise it's pretty lame talent show. Will men loose intrest in beautiful women because of it? No. Will women stop exploiting and being exploited for their beauty? No.
2
Learn to love yourself, and embrace what is good for you. Face goop, butt injections, high heels, hair dye, botox- none of it is necessary or healthy, so why do it? Men don't, and neither do women who truly believe they are equal to those men. As for pageants, they are for the Fox and Friends crowd. Why are the rest of us even acknowledging them?
4
This is all pretty complicated.
To take one example, about 25 years ago I watched some reruns of the old Danny Thomas TV show from the late 50s. I think they were curated by the well known psychologist Dr. Joyce Brothers who talked about how the show reflected its times and presented nice little morality plays.
One episode that caught my attention guest-starred a well-known glamorous entertainer who, in the episode, was appearing in Danny’s nightclub act. The idea was that Danny’s wife was afraid this glamorous woman would make a play for her husband and he would be unable to resist. Yet the actress who played the wife was a good looking fit former dancer who exemplified late 20th Century standards of beauty much more than the glamorous “sex symbol” from the late 50s.
So to the extent we’ve managed as a culture to dance our way over to the point where health and fitness (and for that matter character and personality) exemplify desirability more than glamour (or for that matter wealth and power), that seems like a good thing to me. And there’s still the old aphorism that, after awhile, beauty is as beauty does.
Might be a good idea to keep in mind that some of us are tastemakers, more of us follow along, and some of us resist following along to some extent.
The beauty business is one contradiction after another. Women spend enormous time and energy on their looks, and then complain if men ogle them. This contradiction reveals the underlying truth. In fact, the beauty business is a competition between and among women. Women are very cutting and vocal in their judgments of other women - much more so than are men. Most men aren't looking for Vogue models - they're way too skinny and fake looking. As a man, I've felt frustrated by my partner's obsession with her appearance. So much time and expense - and it's not done for me! I wish she would just be satisfied with her natural self.
4
Real change is when plus size and other body types are included.
Some of the women I know are always comparing how they look to how other women look.
I can't look at another women even if we are no more than friends.
Why do women wear clothes that emphasizes their body in a way that makes them feminine in a way that makes them look sexy.
I am not referring to women who leave little to the imagination.
Even women who wear modest wear clothes the clothes they wear are not chosen for comfort or because the clothes have a nice design.
It's how they look in it
Even when their breast are not exposed they still want you to know they are there for example.
Men are not like that.
Men first look for comfort and value.
They want to look professional at work.
Women who want to look professional sill want to look feminine.
If they didn't they would all dress like Hillary Clinton.
Is this because they are born a female and it is biological or is it cultural.
.
. . . have you ever watched one of these, even for a moment? If so, you cannot fail to notice that except for variations in height and hair color and shade of skin, all the contestants look alike (Barbie Dolls), walk alike, smile alike. Stepford land . . .
As for the comment that, unlike men's competitions, you cannot "train" for this, that is not correct. Most of these women have been training for this all their lives, working their way up through lesser and regional pageants. There are rigid protocols.
7
Jerry Seinfeld had a routine tangential to this topic some years ago. First, he noted that while women spent a lot of time in thought about dating and how to dress, men were different.
"You want to know what men are thinking," he would ask. "I'll tell you what men are thinking. (long pause) Nothing."
He would notice well dressed young women in the audience and ask if they thought their date was different. He would laugh at the notion.
So would we.
Ms. Weiss is spot on, although it is difficult to imagine this ever changing.
Media in all forms is flooded with ways to help women achieve whatever they wish to achieve in appearance. There are male equivalents to those items, but they appear to be of interest to a much smaller population.
In general, men don't care. Ms. Weiss suggests that women should wise up. I agree. It would be refreshing.
1
Couldn't agree more that the whole thing, whether you call it a pageant or a competition, is ridiculous and past its prime. Just get rid of it.
2
Thank you, Ms. Weiss, for your final paragraph which mentions that while women are being judged, they are also themselves judging. In that way, women and men are no different.
3
There's nothing wrong with beauty or the desire to be beautiful.
But please stop blaming men. The desire and appreciation for beauty is innate in our humanity.
10
I am in my 70s now but a pretty woman still makes me smile. I don't hoot and holler or stare or ogle but I smile. I am capable of appreciating a woman's personality, intellect, sense of humor, judgment, and all the other traits but I don't know how to pretend that I don't notice or appreciate beauty as well. Probably too old to change now.
7
I agree 100%. It's a good step, to get rid of the blatantly shallow bathing suit 'contest'... but to then try to imply that this overall pageant is still not about outward appearance is laughable. If indeed it's about poise, and character, and 'inner beauty', then I suppose that means that the 5'0", 120 pound young woman who's missing an arm, but who was valedictorian, who has volunteered abroad to teach children in Africa, and who has started her own non-profit in the US...that such a young woman now has a chance to be Miss America?
Yeah... I didn't think so.
1
We all want to be 'attractive'. However, the problem with pageants is that they perpetuate standards that are not only impossible for 99% of the population, but which are very one-dimensional, and therefore exclusionary by their very nature. All the contestants more or less look like Barbie Dolls.
As Neanderthals, somehow we were capable of attracting mates, yellow teeth, body hair and all! Now, we must have hairless bodies, very specifically groomed eyebrows, full eyelashes (eyelash extensions using a mini Hot Iron?!), white teeth (porcelain veneers, bleaching), blemish-free skin, a toned and taut figure (personal trainers, liposuction, implants), a full head of hair (hair implants, Rogaine), no signs of aging (face lift, botox, etc.). It’s really quite perverted. We don’t need all this in order to attract mates. The problem is that we’ve upped the ante, and with that, social expectations and notions about who is deemed ‘attractive’. Yet, modern man, in certain other (less-developed) parts of the world, do not subscribe to such twisted notions about outward appearance; they continue to attract mates just fine.
So long as the cosmetics, plastic surgery industries etc. are successful in making us feel bad about our appearances, we will spend $ on their products and procedures. It takes a very strong individual with unwavering self-esteem to understand that such messaging is self-serving, and to not buy into it.
1
The time and money I have wasted on this stuff in my 75 years makes me cringe!
Happily wearing flats and letting my hair go grey.
4
"... Getting rid of the bikini contest won’t stop judges — and the rest of the world — from critiquing contestants’ outer beauty. As all women know, that happens even if we are shuffling down the block in old sweats. ... " When women stop telling us lies about how old they are - or perhaps they say nothing - and when they stop dying their hair to hide the grey then we can all let out a breath of honesty. We men took it seriously when we were told by our mothers so long ago not to judge a book by its cover. Truth. And #metoo wasn't necessary.
Miss America? Here she comes..... outdated and irrelevant the pageant is a specter from a different era. We do not do any better by continuing to urge women compete with each other. Based on outward beauty or not, competition among women just looks ugly. Have you seen Mean Girls?
2
Never having watched a Miss America pageant, I may not be the best one to comment here; however, isn't a beauty contest without the beauty component kind of like a sandwich without the bread? Sure, I guess you can make it work, but why?
I get dumping the Bikini (it's clearly a bit crass and low brow) but are they dumping the evening gowns too? Without the beauty portion, why not just have an essay contest? Or a dance competition? Or a women's debate society? Divorcing beauty from the pageant calls into question the whole enterprise.
6
It all seems rather biological. With peacocks it is the male that seems designed to attract the opposite sex visually. With humans, can we really argue that it is not the female that is designed to attract males (and decide for herself who to accept)?
4
The weird thing is that it is mainly women who watch this pageant. Men couldn't be more bored. True, men invented it as a means of making money, but that seems to be the extent of their interest in it.
6
This reads like fight club for women, but the problem is it’s not the 90s anymore. Of course, when someone on TV says “It’s not about looks, it’s about personality!” they are lying through their teeth, that’s old news. But at the same time, if not beauty, what else should we sort our partners by? Intelligence? That becomes a meritocracy just as unfair as the beauty metric. Perceived “goodness”? That takes a long time to figure out, and to be sure of. We certainly do rely on looks too much, but there’s really no one standard that’s fair to everyone. I wonder how the author thinks we should be doing it.
2
Why publish, online and in the print version, a picture of Miss American contestants in bathing suits? Be part of the solution, not the problem!
2
The middle way, grasshopper. Liberation does not have to mean renouncing everything and living like an ascetic (or a slob). There is nothing wrong with being kempt or pleasing yourself as long as you don't obsess the approval of others.
2
Why do we still have beauty contests?! We should have have terminated them years ago.
3
In 2016, the beauty industry took in $84 billion (that's billion with a B) according to statista.com. And we can all guess how much of that was spent by women. So, Ms. Carlson, here's the question: If women don't want to be judged by their beauty (or lack thereof), why do they spend hours a day and so much money on it?
5
People do care about "looks", because (to some degree), outward appearance reflects personality. As a man with no interest in females, I wouldn't mind cuddling up with Sam Elliot for an evening. But for a long-term relationship, I much prefer funny-lookin'. Give me Max Gail or Festus Hagan any day. Carol Burnett's plastic surgery took away her face's basic "comic" character, which is what made her appealing.
4
“She got her looks from her father. He's a plastic surgeon.” — Groucho Marx
These silly beauty contests should have ended years ago. They’re really ridiculous.
5
This hit home. I did well in grade school so no one could call me stupid. So I was ugly. "Ugly Ellen". Back then I would have traded A's and IQ points to be pretty. I still hear that in my head today....addicted to fashion, makeup, and working out for the wrong reasons..... It's the measure of a woman even today.
3
In future, contestants will be required to wear a burka.
2
As a not very good looking guy, not very tall, overweight, I can assure you that, when I was single, I was objectified. I was weighed, measured, and found wanting. We all do it and it is the same for men as it is for women.
11
Thank you for the link to Piers Morgan's column, which was spot on and made a lot more sense than this one. Is it really news that people judge each other's beauty and sexual attractiveness? Or that life is sometimes unfair?
3
I think nobody is going to watch Miss America, and the ratings will further plummet. It will be a contest of pretty parrots repeating well-sounding PC lines. Not worth my time -- and I am a woman. I always thought that the part where all the contestants were pleading to save the world at the end, was the most boring.
3
It's a beauty pageant. Cancel the whole thing. See the excellent John Oliver expose on how they lie about the number of scholarships they award. What are they going to do now without the "beauty" aspect? Everyone knows the competition isn't going to be between a bunch of overweight nerds with bad skin. I love smart people of any appearance, sex, race, or religion; the leaders in all aspects of our society. But be real, this is about attractiveness; or cancel the whole charade.
9
I hope this is a wave against women as sexual objects. Yes, as a species, we are drawn to beauty but the swimsuit competition has always been demeaning and embarrassing. The bikin-clad contestants in Miss Peru 2018 quoted statistics of violence against women instead of giving their body measurements. This irony of optics is an unnerving and powerful message. Also, many competitors exchange sexual favors with rich and powerful men to pay for the expensive "work" of face lifts, body enhancements and gowns. Glad to see progress. Those complaining can go to the beach where bikinis are appopriate.
3
Your comment is disturbing. Why is it ironic for a woman in a bikini to discuss violence against women? Do you not see any difference between sex appeal and sexual violence?
Merely finding someone attractive is not a societal problem in and of itself. Where it BECOMES a problem is when it: (1) it becomes a tool for evaluating merit; (2) creates a standardized and narrow template for "beauty"; and (3) these practices is internalized.
Need we explore how including a swimsuit event as part of a "scholarship" opportunity illustrates the first problem? Moving on.
The massive amounts of advertising, money and ... pageantry that goes into the event results in a standardized model of beauty. Almost every person I know (man or woman) "cleans up nice." But it is well-known that "beauty" in the MAP has long since become obsession over trivialities. A woman must have the ride stride length, head tilt, standard wave, standard smile, standard posture... entire careers are devoted to training competitors to fit a narrow mold that goes far beyond merely putting one's best foot forward.
And, as the author notes, these things have become internalized. Even debates about who should wield supreme executive power are routinely tainted with utter nonsense about who's wife is more attractive or why there isn't more smiling. It's not just the stuff of comedians and light-hearted jokes. Actual TIME is devoted to tie color, pantsuits, who's wife is more attractive, "hand size," unruly hair, etc. One almost forgets that a smiling, high-energy man can advocate torture or that seemingly frail woman can help anchor SCOTUS against a power grab.
5
But what about people juding one's beauty to find a marriage prospect?
@SJW: As I tried (unsuccessfully?) to say at the outset of my comment, there is no societal harm in someone finding someone else attractive or unattractive.
As for "marriage prospects," we don't need templates to figure out to whom we are each attracted. A quick glance at someone may pique interest or maybe the person's chosen style or physical appearance is not for you. But they probably did not leave the house knowing you would be evaluating them. I would say if someone honestly wants to see someone at their subjective "best," they should gather their courage, speak to the person and see if they are willing to meet in other settings. People generally know when they are being asked out and dress as they wish to be seen.
But I'd wager we have all judged ourselves unworthy of speaking to someone else based solely on our appearance. I would also bet good money that someone you might have happily gone out with was/is too scared to approach you that way. Yes, some people are very shy, but our insecurities can also be exacerbated by looking at MAP/social media/Hollywood "models" as if they were something other than artificial. For crying out loud, people even worry about babies not meeting social media's standards for "cute!"
THAT is the kind of harm I see. Unconsciously, it can create an environment where everyone is begging some bouncer to get into Club Validation. But there IS no true "list" or "dress code" except the ones we make up and/or accept.
The author of this article complains about wearing high heels and later states: "We are so much more than this. But we can’t help but get distracted by the whole charade" [of 'beauty treatments' etc.].
For goodness sake, get some agency into your life. Don't wear high heels if they are uncomfortable, and don't get sucked into the makeup treadwheel.
As a woman in her 60s, I stopped doing this stuff when I was a teenager.
3
You're asking the author to get some agency in her life. This is the same reporter who wrote a story about the Aziz Ansari incident a few months ago and placed all the blame on him, denying the woman who consented to sexual activity any ability or responsibility to simply speak her mind and/or leave.
Women, in her worldview. are quite powerless and constant victims.
4
Some women seem to focus on nothing but their looks (Melania, Steve Mnuchin's wife) this is what they bring to the table. And they generally wind up with men who have enormous financial wealth, but virtually nothing else to offer. I suspect over time they become desperately unhappy women.
I assume Ms. Weiss is in the throes of the high-achievers' Manhattan dating scene, and I certainly don't envy that. But almost anyone who is happily coupled will tell you for most of us, looks are only a small part of the equation. A man who values looks above all else is a man you want to avoid at all costs.
3
I have yet to meet a man (and don't want to) who watches the endless string of red carpets during awards season where women flaunt their looks dressed in the latest (often ridiculous) fashions. These events are aimed at women to judge and ridicule other women. As was wisely noted in a teen com, no teenage girl was ever driven to bulimia by her male friends.
But to believe that men AND women won't judge each other on looks (or money) flies in the face of 100,000 years of genetic evolution.
11
But racism and ageism are also a product of genetic evolution. In the caveman days, human tribes feared other tribes of different colors--they needed to be wary of people who were not like them and, theoretically, posed a threat. And they were agesit too: post-menopausal women were given less food since they were considered useless, as they could no longer bear children. But, we, as as species, overcame that. So why can't we overcome discrimination based on appearance?
2
“Youth and beauty are not accomplishments.”—Carrie Fisher
15
The answer is very simple: Refuse to care what other people think. You are the only one authorized to issue opinions as to your own suitability to lead the life you alone must lead.
"I'm the one that's got to die when it's time for me to die - so let me live my life the way I want to." -- Jimi Hendrix
3
Does anyone care at all about the Ms America competition? I can't even think of knowing the name of anyone who has won since the 80s (or even watching network television for that matter.)
Its as relevant as a rotary phone with a land line at this point.
4
Hey! don't pick on those old phones! They lasted for decades, not 6 months like the cordless models I had to keep replacing later on. You didn't have to buy them either. As for smart phones (the touchscreen ones), they're difficult to use
and extremely expensive. The old phones could be disassembled, cleaned, and you could cradle them fairly easily. Later on you could get a "princess model" in your choice of colors or stick with the regular one. But you're right about Ms. America. The young ladies looked nice but y'know- so what? Give them all a nice reward for their participation- none of them should have to lose.
comparison to the beauty others however conceived—intellectually, physically, socially, economically—was a constant factor in my youth and as I grew old. any movement away from this penchant to judge where no discernible need for judgement exists is a good thing. regardless of the slow speed of that movement.
Seeing a beautiful woman is one of the great joys in a typical man's day. Giving this up, even if possible, would be to lose part of the richness of human sexuality. That does not mean, however, that men don't appreciate other qualities in a woman, such as intelligence, skill and talent. I have to wonder, years after the sexual revolution, why we still have such trouble integrating the sexual side of our beings into daily life, such as in the workplace and more recently in entertainment. One can see the bikini contest as "degrading", or simply as something nice that women do for men. Why take the negative view?
6
Given this desired change in competitiveness in the Miss America pageant, I would now wager the audience watching the event will diminish drastically and sponsors will pull their support leading to the demise of this event. C'est la vie.
1
The Saudis are removing the veils and restrictions from their women to encourage them to celebrate their femininity, and the US is putting them back on-Hilarious.
6
I will miss it solely for the opportunity to reacquaint with the disgust that I feel for the superficial, hypocritical, self-serving, narrow-mindedness, short-sightedness that underlies much of the species motivation. And refreshing my sense of superiority for feeling this way.
1
Ever since reading "The Feminine Mystique" in 1969, when I was 14, I have simply not conformed to the demands society places upon women to be sexually attractive to men at all times, everywhere. I had no interest in common female interests. I was a bookish nerd, and I preferred Flying magazine to womens' magazines.
Somehow I made it through 30 years of corporate servitude without ever once putting on makeup, jewelry, perfume, stockings, or revealing clothes. Remarkably, too, I managed to get married and have a child. Conformity is a powerful force in America. Women's lib might have once been a thing, but the men won. In 2018, there is one shibboleth that no one dares defy: virtually all women shave their legs to resemble Barbie's plastic gams, while the men walk around fluffy and hairy and no one cares.
1
Let's be honest: They didn't just do away with the bathing suit competition, they did away with the Miss America competition. Without the bikinis, the TV ratings will be slightly below C-Span. Bert Parks is spinning in his grave!
www.newyorkgritty.net
4
Any affiliation with a pageant Trump has owned should keep every contestant off the stage- bathing suit or not. The title of Ms. Universe will always be tarnished.
1
Wow. In the middle of all the polarized agenda-driven position-taking posturing, here comes something else, different and unexpected: truth-telling.
May you write forever, Ms. Weiss.
1
The basic problem, which will never get resolved, is that sex sells...
And a lot of sex sells a lot of stuff.
7
We for sure still live in the culture depicted in the old comedic bit:
"We had three women applying for a job in the office. One had great writing skills, the second was superior in math and the third was very good at public speaking. So which did we pick?"
Of course, everyone knows the answer whether you've heard the joke or not.
Parading around in what is basically one's extremely skimpy underwear to win scholarships certainly seems absurd. Not sure how even with the change it becomes a "fair" competition since there is no comparable skill set involved. Despite what they claim some women will be judged better looking than others. Isn't that how it works in the real world? We all have been "trained" by culture to be biased when it comes to appearance.
My thought has evolved in tis matter. :-)
I used to find beauty contests insuting and repellent. I now see them as one of the ways women can leverage their gender-specific attributes to help them advance in the world (get scholarships, connections, business contracts, etc.) in a relatively safe and controlled environment (unlike simply getting a sugar daddy, etc.).
Men have their own areas of gendered physical contests, e.g. the various fighting contests, from boxing to UFC fighting, or the crazy stunts they do on youtube to get attention and admiration, etc.
Why is it ok for men to leverage their physical assets, i.e. strength, but not for women to leverage theirs, e.g. beauty?
4
Because you can train to become good at male-oriented sports or at YouTube stunts, but with beauty contents, there is no training, so it isn't fair to judge women by that. As a poster above said: "youth and beauty are not achievements".
2
You can't change the fact that most men are sexually attracted to women. This is how the human race continues. To pretend otherwise is nonsense. As are the times when women come to the office with cleavage showing, short skirts, and spike heels, then pretend to be outraged that men make comments about their bodies.
What was stupid was to ask questions at the Miss America pageant, pretending it was anything other than a sexy contest. World peace was a big topic in the answers to inane questions. The more honest answer would have been to win a big jackpot in Lotto. Dropping the bathing suit contest will be a quick route to ending the pageant. People watch to see the sexy bodies, any other reason is specious.
10
“We are not going to judge you on your outward appearance,”
This is hilarious. If outward appearance is not a consideration, they will also have ugly candidates?
The hypocrisy is world record level.
9
"But far too often when I hear a man describe a woman as “super fit,” my brain substitutes some variation of Mr. Trump’s locker-room talk."
You make me think of my experiences in Oregon where instead of saying they do not want to see the panhandlers at the roadside holding a sign they project on them and claim "I feel uncomfortable, even threatened." to justify making laws about safety for motorists and panhandlers to force them into places where they will not be seen by the normal folks.
This is clearly projection, something they are very good at using to remove unsightly people in Oregon. They use some version of the same phony "I'm afraid." argument to harass homeless looking teens who hang out in groups in any town. I've seen them they are not aggressive or threatening they are simply sad people panhandling or hanging out and being themselves. In fact it is so dangerous to be a homeless person or panhandler in Oregon they make a point of being rather obsequious to make sure every normie they encounter knows they are not a threat. Where is the upset at that?
Sorry but you do not get to declare your character deficiencies then project it upon all of society by way of excusing or normalizing yourself.
Or as we used to say before it became socially unacceptable to be honest and direct; "Sounds like a personal problem."
3
One has to wonder if the Sports Illustrated Swimsuit issue will follow suit.
This picture just makes me cringe. We should replace this with a BRAINS beauty contest, and pick the smartest one.
2
It remains true that women have special burdens, no matter what "advantages" each might possess. Swimsuit issues don't seem high on the list of problems, especially when our country may be on the brink of passing the Equal Rights Amendment and giving women constitutional status at long last.
Rather, this editorial brings to my mind "intersectionality" which considers aspects of our identities – race, gender, economic class, age, disability, sexual orientation, and other characteristics. The term also reminds us that, where burdens exist, those burdens are commutative.
A great encapsulation of intersectionality considerations is found in the words of feminist welfare reformer Johnnie Tillmon: “I'm a woman. I'm a black woman. I'm a poor woman. I'm a fat woman. I'm a middle-aged woman. And I'm on welfare. In this country, if you're any one of those things you count less as a human being. If you're all those things, you don't count at all. Except as a statistic.” (Welfare is a Women's Issue, Ms Magazine, Spring 1972)
That's what came to my mind when swimsuits and evening gowns are the discussion of the day.
1
I wish we were all that healthy as the article claims. Obesity and related illnesses are a severe problem in our society.
By the way, looking good and well taken care off is normal and healthy attitude.
3
Going off on a tangent from beauty contests: I was struck by a comment my wife, who was born and raised in South Korea, made to me about flight attendants. She noticed that attendants on U.S. airlines are both men and women and that there was great variety in terms of age, height, weight, color/ethnicity, and general appearance--that, in large part, they looked like a general cross-section of the population. She contrasted that with the reality on Asian airlines, in which the flight attendants are uniformly tall, slim, attractive young women in skirts and heels. She was scornful of the values underlying what she saw on the Asian airlines and deeply appreciated and respected the value system underlying what she saw on the U.S. airlines. I don't offer this to say everything's great in the U.S., just for what it's worth. And I don't know if there's any easy "answers" or "rules" here--it's part of the messy business of being human men and women. I consider myself a fairly evolved guy, but can I say that I haven't noticed the pretty flight attendants when I'm on Korean Air or Asiana? No, I can't. Maybe part of the answer is in what we do when we notice: do we objectify or not? Do we remember and respect that there's an inner person as well as what's on the outside?
3
I used to enjoy watching Miss America when it was an event the whole nation watched. I always rooted for my home state woman, but also made a choice (on looks) as to who I thought would win. The question and answer part could disqualify a pretty-faced woman, but probably not elevate her status. The truth is that Miss America was a beauty contest. If it's now something else, I wonder what that will be. I also wonder if we need it at all. The organizer says it will be a "competition," but smart women already compete for degrees and positions in science, medicine and literature, savvy women compete in business, talented women in music and art. In these competitions, years of study and work are examined and judged by the people and organizations who are expert in these fields to determine who succeeds. A one night, nationally televised competition can only be another reality show, in which uninformed popular opinion turns issues of brains, skill and talent into a contest of winners and losers. The next thing will no doubt be that watchers call in to register their votes. Either we have a beauty contest or we don't. I'm in agreement that the concept is archaic and demeaning, so I say we don't have the contest. Turning it into another superficial reality show, which is what will happen, is pointless and demeans the other talents and skills that women who build a life of achievement, develop.
The real female beauty contest is Instagram, followers equal votes and there are many unknown beautiful women who have millions of followers. The young people today don't watch tv much, its all about media platforms such as youtube and Instagram. This move by Miss America, seemingly bold, is silent as few have followed this pageant in decades.
2
I study animals, mating is mating, and we is just animals.
Look at formal wear difference between women and men. Skin and red, it’s all fitness for procreation, it’s individuals advertising fitness for procreation. Larege breasts- same thing. Dancing, same thing.
When I see high heels and large breasts I question intelligence.
One thing that’s changing is in males muscles are no longer required to provide or secure resources, in fact they may now indicate danger or risk of injury to the female. And males using muscles to provide can only gather much less resources and will have shorter productive lives.
Now what would be interesting is seeing us move to seasonal mating, like many species do.
1
At this rate, the only venue in which a woman's look will matter will be cable news.
6
Bari Weiss, thank you for an honest, witty, clearly expressed literate strike against the darkness of most of the pretentious or moralistic stuff I read... even in the NYTimes!
2
I always thought these pageants were a dying species from the past. It surprises me that they are given so much space and get so many comments . Does anyone here actually watch these things?
1
Oh please. I am a woman and have always judged men on their looks. Being fit and healthy and muscular has always been a top priority for me, and well as for the men in my life.
8
Men judging women for their beauty and women judging men for their place in the social pecking order is human nature. But that doesn't mean we can't try to evolve a little bit.
However, I have my doubts about the viability of the future of Miss America. The idea of this contest is as anachronistic as ever, swimsuits or not.
2
Ask yourself if the same "competition" would be held for men -- let's say whatever the male version would be. The answer would be a resounding "no". You know why? Because regardless of whether or not you include bikinis, this is still a pageant, and you don't need skimpy costumes to objectify women. A "competition" in what, exactly? What a joke. Competitions typically state what they are for -- DWTS is a dance competition, FIFA a soccer competition. This so-called new Miss America is a competition in....what, exactly? This thing needs to die, or stop with the pretense -- just trot them out like dolls and vote for the prettiest.
3
The beauty pageant in which you describe yourself living sounds very sad. Not all women are in that world. You might try and get yourself out of it and take a few friends with you as well.
2
People have worshiped the female form for thousands of years.
6
At the base of it, it is about power. It is about power over women using judgment. Individual women get to be judged by all leading to a loss their personhood. Objectification all the way!
3
I am waiting for Trump to tweet that his favorite part of the pageant is being removed. "Terrible and un-American" are likely going to be in the miasma of words oozing from his rant.
Beauty pageants, contests, call them what you will. When will we get rid of this anachronism once and for all?
1
Where is Chuck Barris when we need him?
1
While it's hard to disagree with the idea that both men and women are, to a great extent judged on their levels of attractiveness, there is no good reason to celebrate and promote this tendency.
2
Everything here seems contradictory, it's a beauty contest, but beauty is impossible to define uniformly, there is no universal beauty standard. Now, if they are thinking about dignifying women, and stop making of them money making sexual objects, what they should really do is to end beauty pageants at all, replace them by intellectual contests, or values and moral contests. Oh, I see, boring, no sales, no money, OMG, I just realized what all this is about ...
1
It is very telling that 99% of the publications that ran this story ran that photo underneath it. THANKS A LOT. Had to get one last dig in.
Huge slap in the face.
Women have been waiting for this since the dawn of 2nd wave feminism!
2
Look at the photo of the pageant's first contestants and pick out the one that by today's standards you think is the prettiest. Then do a Google search and see who actually won. Is it the same girl you picked from the lineup? Bet it is.
2
'We Are Living Inside the Beauty Pageant'
Of course we are. It's called (in this case) mammalian mate selection, and works both ways - he choses her; she, him, or at least both try to, on the basis of personal preferenes. Agreed 'beauty contests' are meat-racks of fantasy. But they're only (to appropriate my Catholic kid defintion of a sacrament) an 'outward sign of inward disgrace'. If none are to chose any on the basis of personal preference, fantasy or sheer horniness, irrespective of wisdom, then we must be issued at birth a non-negotiable lottery ticket for subsequent reproductive mate selection. Those with no interest in reproduction might sell thier tickets. Increasingly the whole social issue of what's permissible even to think aobout, sex-wise (and we're discussing nothing other) is becoming as shrill and puritannical as was the temperance movement of hte late 19th century. Which reated more problems than it solved, and certainly enough to drive a person to drink I hate to think what the sexual equivalnt is. Nothing bright or beautiful for anyone. Push the extremes and you invite disappointment. Just look at contemporary politics - in most countries, not just the Benighted States of America.
3
Good-bye Pageant.
If the pageant committee believes the pageant would magically change its ultimate purpose with the elimination of the swimsuit competition, they are being naive. I wonder if this strategy is just a means for them to appeal to more viewers in the hopes that this dated contest will improve its lagging ratings. All things come to an end. Maybe it's time to say goodbye to the competition completely.
I agree whole-heartedly. I just wish the same sensitivity would be applied to men who do not meet similar standards. Those that are nots: not handsome, not tall, not buff, not studs, not rich, not high-powered, not in top positions, not famous. We might actually achieve something when we get rid of our biases to women as well as to women.
The method I use to judge the truth of Bari's assertion is to picture in my mind the whole endeavor, first as a pageant and then as a "competition." But instead of women, I substitute men. Ridiculous isn't strong enough a descriptor.
While our culture comes to a new understanding of attraction -- hopefully one that doesn't punish people for their lack of present-tense culturally defined norms of beauty -- let's try to apply the same standards of value to both sexes.
Looking at the picture from 1921 of swimsuits compared to what I am and am not seeing today, makes it no mystery why so many other things the way they are and why people now behave as they do. There's really no such thing as evil in this world, just the produce of the seeds we plant. Call Harvey Weinstein and Donald Trump any thing else but that.
Scientific studies show men marry for ideal beauty and body shape when thinking about raising a family and young children and even babies respond more to pretty young faces. There is a species survivalist component.Movies, and fables (ie, Ernest Hemingway's nurse in Farewell to Arms or Helen of Troy) recount, beauty has its benefits or can start wars. The me too movement exposes, pretty women are more sexually harassed in the work place, ie cheerleaders, military in the famous 1946 photo in Milan. However leaders have not all been beauties ie Cleopatra , Eleanor Roosevelt, Queen Elizabeth I, Queen Victoria with towering intellects. When intellect and beauty are both there wome can be thwarted in their careers. Hedy Lamar discovered GPS, patented it, during WWII, and gave it to the military, a case in point. The US military didn't use it then partly because they would have to pay her.
2
Hedy Lamarr didn't invent GPS. There was no such thing as a satellite at that time. She helped imvent a method of frequency hopping to thwart jamming attempts on torpedoes. Also, we'll stop judging potential mates on their looks about the time birds stop judging others on their plumage. Our big brains may try to convince us our basic biology doesn't control us but it just ain't so.
2
True, it wasnt a direct link to GPS but that technology and wifi and blue tooth would not be secure without her invention. When her patent ran out, the military started using the frequency hopping in developing GPS and in guided missiles and didn't tell her about the expiration while she was still alive. Electronic Frontier Foundation's Pioneer Award was awarded to her son and she acknowledged by phone her acceptance.
She also helped design Howard Hughes airplane wings to be more efficient in flight based on airborne birds. Howard Hughes not only paid her but set up an inventors lab for her. Correction the photo of a beauty I was referring to is American girl in Italy by Ruth Orkin taken in 1951.
Humans have evolved to assess each other for reproductive fitness, and certain physical characteristics indicate higher or lower levels of "fitness". Facial symmetry, muscularity (male), and fat stores in specific areas (female) are indicators of reproductive fitness. Any OB-GYN will tell you that obesity significantly increases the maternal and fetal risk during pregnancy, again an indicator of "fitness". Rather than censuring each other for behaving in ways that aid our survival perhaps we should consider that our current epidemic of overweight and obesity leading to ill health and poor economic outcomes (1/6 U.S. GDP is spent on health care) is detrimental, and that social/peer pressure to change behaviors is an acceptable method in combatting this scourge.
3
Plenty of women compete to better themselves every day - and don't need to be showcased on a tv show to do it. Why don't they highlight these types of success stories and put the money from this preposterous spectacle into even more scholarships for women - of all ages, backgrounds, shapes and sizes and areas of interest? That would be a far better way to represent and support modern women and be a much better role model for young girls out there who want to aspire to be a logger instead of a beach princess.
1
I like having my nails painted and wearing high heels. Makeup is fun, and good makeup should be subtle. Wearing it makes me feel more polished and confident, and I don’t think there’s anything wrong with helping myself look more awake and alive to offset the effects of a long week. Pilates is a good work out, and there is nothing wrong with making your body stronger! Mostly I do all this for me, but I would far rather be ten pounds overweight with no makeup and wet hair in a room full of guys than in a room full of women any day! I’m glad to see the bikini contest go, and an end to pageants, especially the toddlers in tiaras, would be a great thing as far as I’m concerned. That said, I’m going to carry on painting, waxing and Pilate-ing because I like it, and in small part because being a professional woman demands it. Until we can put an end to age discrimination and the general vicious nature from women to women, we’re always going to rely on grooming to give ourselves a leg up.
4
I'm sorry, but to think that men are the only offenders when it comes to judging the opposite sex by their looks is just disingenuous. Think about how so many women go gaga for male athletes and movie stars, how they may very well love and admire the man in their life but wouldn't mind at all if they looked more like Brad Pitt. Are there some men who are cloddish when it comes to this? Sure, but I would still argue that the great majority of men can be respectful of the women they encounter in life even if their reaction can sometimes be "Gee, she's kind of cute." If this is a sin then we're all guilty.
2
I'm a guy totally behind the women's movement. That said, it's silly for women to expect to do away with the effects of male hormones. "Objectifying" women--i.e., judging them by their sex appeal--is 100% nature's fault. Men are programmed to respond to female sexiness (or the lack thereof). That's just a fact that no amount of attempted social conditioning will ever affect. Every single American woman has heard the feminist preaching about how women should not go along with "objectifying" their bodies with breast surgery, bikinis, and all the rest. What has the result of literally fifty years of feminists preaching this sermon to women? Girls--forget women--now want to be more outrageously and in-your-face sexier at ever younger ages than ever before. Female sexiness is power, because that's what the male psyche was programmed to nature to respond to, to increase procreation as much as possible, which is literally all nature "cares about." Women's psyches are just as programmed to seek procreative mates who are Alpha and thus potentially protective as men's are to seek sexy female bodies. Fortunately, our society is now so open that women can choose to be as unsexy, intellectual, nerdy, and professionally competent as they want, and achieve great financial success, not to mention happy marriage with a non-Alpha male or a lesbian or trans partner. But there's no use pretending that women don't have an advantage in the race for the Alpha guys if they are sexy. Girls get this.
8
The obvious question is who will watch or care? But more to the point, it's interesting the push to destroy the Miss America Contest was led by Gretchen Carlson: someone who was almost certainly hired for her looks, then when she bristled at that fact, or bristled at being treated like she was hired for the reasons she was hired, then got the person who hired her fired. Me too is disgusting lots of men who are to afraid to say so. It turns every woman into something like the Communist German Stassi calling out men (or getting them fired) who do or say things characteristic of men. Let men be men, stop trying to turn us into lord knows what! Most reasonable men already hate feminism, please don't make that hatred spread to women in general. That's where feminism is pushing us.
4
If they drop the swimsuits they need something to fill the void. They should add two events. In the first the contestants denounce racism and sexism and in the second they shoot varmints. Anyone good at both is clearly a woman of character.
3
I take her point bit maybe Ms. Weiss too cynical with her critique of the focus on health and wellness as a cover for the same-old objectification. We are moving in the right direction, let’s take heart. While “healthy” may be merely a euphemism for “beautiful” in Manhattan and LA, in the rest of the country I think women think it means “healthy”. More fruits and veggies, less meat - less dieting, more maintaining a healthy weight and walking regularly. I’m really glad Miss America has taken this step in the right direction. Gretchen Carlson rocks. Let’s encourage more, not tear it down.
3
At the price of sounding hypocritical, I must admit having enjoyed beauty contests, not always by what could be seen but by what demanded imagination for what was hidden; probably natural, as we all are sexual beings, and hormonally- driven to be attracted to the opposite sex, as we are fully complementary opposites we hold dear not only to our own survival but for the pleasure of their company. But, coincidentally, we men realize that the strong sexual content in the exposure is what sells, and attracts, at the awful price of objectivizing women. all over again. Is there a cure to our possibly morbose curiosity? I doubt it, but at least we could get together and make it more palatable. Speaking for myself, I would love the challenge to elevate our mutual attraction to an honest and equal admiration, knowing we all are quite imperfect in spite of all the disguises at our disposal, and yet, unique to love and be loved...while preserving our self-worth. This demands reciprocity in our free will to be open and, in that process, knowingly accept our exposure to another human being, hopefully having each other's best interests in mind.
1. Beyond exploiting women, beauty pageants send the wrong message that a certain type of body and appearance is desirable, and if yours differs, beauty eludes you.
2. We parade around our pets during dog shows quite similarly.
3. We never have beauty pageants for men. We don't judge men for looks and see if they can respond to random questions.
4. The message is women must be beautiful to succeed in life, and looks are all that matter.
3
Plenty of women compete to better themselves every day - and don't need to be showcased on tv to do it. Why don't they highlight these types of success stories and put the money from this preposterous spectacle into even more scholarships for women - of all ages, backgrounds, and areas of interest?
1
We are doing it to ourselves. The style has been to expose more skin lately, not less. Women - professional women - are wearing low cut, bare arms. Men are more conservatively dressed, not less. What are we projecting by walking around in leggings, so exposed?
2
We live in a visual world, as TV eliminated radio decades ago. Most new learning is done visually
What's next in Miss America, facial recognition and pre-programmed criteria for what is "beautiful"?
Sponsorship for the swimwear-less pageant will evaporate, and the event is setting itself for an end run.
1
Ms. Weiss is a treasure. The comments thread thus far is a fascinating Rorschach of the NYT reader. Society is one layer of reality or, perhaps best stated, as the human response to managing to reality. Bedrock reality is biology. Biological fitness is all nature cares about. And it’s all it ever will care about. Nature calls the shots and we do her bidding. That beauty regimen Ms. Weiss describes that woman work so hard at? That’s not for the men. That’s for other women and it’s it all part of a natural selection hierarchy ritual. Women are keenly, instinctively, and immutably aware of the biological fitness of other women. Nature demands it of them. And the same goes for men. The man with a linebacker build strolling down the avenue is showing all the other men his biological fitness. All the men who come across this gentlemen are instinctively drawn into a biological alchemy of comparative fitness and turf alignment. The drive to biological fitness is billions of years old and we have every echo of that vast struggle coded deep in our genes. We are going to play those echoes out even as we have ironic conversations about ourselves. In this strange social moment of puritanical assexuality the most humorous thing of all is how utterly superficial our ideological fixations and social discussions are and how utterly primordial, permanent and dominant our biology and yes our innate drive toward biological fitness is.
2
If the existence of a swimsuit competition that lasts 20 minutes on air once a year is truly a major social problem, we live in a paradise.
3
What part of "beauty" Pageant is so difficult to parse?
And - just in passing - seriously - have you looked at young women's social media feeds?
Superficial beauty pageant - indeed.
2
Everybody is judged on their looks. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Tall, short, skinny, fat, nice smile, facial hair, etc etc weighs into how people perceive us. But its just one factor, along with what we say, how we behave, what we accomplish. Frankly to say that looks don't enter into the equation, or that they can be somehow completely ignored is pretty ridiculous. Its all part of the human existence.
4
The Proof is in the Puddin'. Let's just wait and see.
1
There is something wrong when someone describes a woman as "super fit" and the writer envisions the grotesque comments of Trump. There is nothing wrong with encouraging people to be fit and praising them for trying. I work hard to keep slim, which is getting harder each year. I work out every day, avoid(mostly) excessive portions and sweets. When I see an overweight person running or working out, I respect them for trying . What on earth is wrong with being in shape? Its like some conservatives mocking college graduates as being slackers. It is not healthy to be overweight or overeat. Some people will always be smarter or fitter than the rest and we condemn them for their hard work in becoming so?
5
If it's no longer a 'beauty pageant' but a 'competition,' how exactly are the contestants competing with one another? Rebrand it if you like but it's not an 'achievement pageant,' and like it or not human beings do inherently evaluate attractiveness in other human beings, for which there are evolutionarily standards. Further, physical beauty is how women compete with each other. Men are only involved peripherally, despite the constant misdirection on this point. As long as female beauty receives negative attention from women and positive attention from men, women who feel they can't measure up will try to undermine the women who actively compete with their looks and blame it on men, because a) beautiful, fit women don't know any better apparently, and b) that must be men's fault because women don't ever undercut other women, right?
3
In a perfect world, the swimsuit part of the Miss America contest would be just fine...especially for the women who WANT to show off their bodies, and the men and women who WANT to see them. This actually goes on all the time in the real world with regular people doing their everyday living. It goes on in all our music, lyrics, videos, movies, fashion, advertisements and everything else we do in life. It goes in all social gatherings and media, business meetings, summer days on the beach and trips on the subway. Who are we actually fooling by removing this one aspect of this competition ?
2
Being sexually attractive is a very important part of being alive. At least female humans are generally not expected to go as far as male peacocks. The (fe)male "geek" stereotype such as Amy or Sheldon on "The Big Bang Theory' is arguably even more destructive than the "sexy airhead" stereotype. And, in fact, the "airhead" part was never explicitly part of Miss America, nor will sexual attractiveness ever be irrelevant to such contests, or to the lives of either gender.
2
Unless and until women give up all these practices — wearing makeup and lipstick, walking around in ridiculous shoes, painting finger- and toenails, and waiting for men to initiate contact — many men will continue to think of them as sex objects and not the equivalent of men.
4
It is well past time for the Miss America pageant (and similar "competitions") to go the way of the dinosaur.
And good riddance.
6
Another win for Muslim women who dress modestly but are denigrated for being modest because they have to wear bikini to show Western culture that they are empowered.
2
Your reference to Muslim women -- as opposed to just "women" -- who dress modestly suggests something a bit darker than empowerment. If you are referring to educated, independent women who choose not to accentuate their sexuality in in their public and professional lives, then perhaps.
But burqas, veils, hijabs, and other compulsory forms of Muslim female attire are far more repressive and far more harmful to women than bikinis. They are symbols of the most repressive male-dominated societies in the world, and are almost always enforced by an interlocking web of religion, education, politics, business, and social norms that define women as inferior to, and under the explicit control of, men. And far from "freeing them from the male gaze", as reactionaries like to claim, such restrictions only add to the problems faced by women at the hands (and eyes) of men. Muslim societies have among the highest rates of physical and sexual assault in the world, up to and including reductions in their female life expectancy, because they are, in the name of modesty, unable to get protection from abusive men, proper gynecological care, safe birth control, and other things that most western women have reasonable access to.
We can rightly rue the emphasis on female appearance in western societies, but societies that enforce female "modesty" are more repressive and dangerous to women by an order of magnitude.
7
This article is more a resentful rant than anything else. It starts off lambasting a beauty pageant for judging people for their physical beauty and wrapping up with a strange stream of consciousness rant Holden Caulfield would struggle to beat - it seems to be revealing the author's own insecurities more than a societal problem.
The level of physical fitness these ladies achieve is difficult to get to and impressive in its own right - and we should be encouraging people to live healthier lives given that most of us sit in office chairs for 8+ hours a day.
If makeup, dieting, duckface selfies, tinder, getting your toes painted, waxing and whatever other vaguely linked topics are not your thing, that's ok. Be who you want to be and leave the rest of us alone. I understand that this type of article sells newspapers and gets clicks for the website, but no one needs more click bait.
9
Feminism is apparently about women being upset that other women are more attractive.
10
This is so true thank you for writing it - it shocks me lately what women are willing to do to themselves. It all seems to be about shame - shame of having hair anywhere, or flesh, or a body at all - shame of existing, really. And our teenage girls pick this up so early because we are willing to shame others. How about we all just stop? Women were sexy and natural in the 70s and men liked them plenty. This fake plastic doll look of today is driven by a multi billion beauty product industry that is happy to take our money. We are suckers.
4
Bari Weiss is the lone voice of reason in the otherwise impenetrable echo chamber of uber-liberal certitude known as the NY Times. I look forward to every column and I’m never disappointed.
For years, and with metronomic repetition, the left has insisted that all women are beautiful and should feel no shame in their bodies. So why does that not apply to women in beauty pageants? Feminists would never oppose a bikini contest for overweight women, because to do so would be oppressive. Those women have the right to be proud of their bodies, but for fit women it’s exploitation?
Typical liberal hypocrisy.
Anyone who’s seen Miss Congeniality even ONCE knows that the reason we don’t need inner-beauty contests is because inner-beauty is its own reward. It took Gracie Lou Freebush less than 2 hours to figure out that these pageants are filled with ambitious, empowered women, who are certainly capable of deciding whether or not they want to appear in swimwear.
Frankly, I'd be willing to bet that given the choice, they'd rather eliminate the question/answer portion and stick with the bikinis.
3
Ms Weiss uses "we" to describe humans that I do not know, nor do I wish to.
3
News flash: literally EVERyBODY is judged on their looks every day. We talk about Donald Trump's orange skin and bizarre hair. Restaurants demand that men wear jackets. A mobile phone spokesman is intentionally chosen to look geeky to portray technical competence. People choose who to talk to in a singles environment based on looks and on the way people carry themselves. Men do it, women do it -- it's just that the kind of judging on looks that is socially acceptable changes with time. Anybody who claims that they only judge people on their inner beauty is lying, probably to themselves most of all.
16
Why are you sniping at responsible eating as if it's some irrational, frivolous symptom of societal sickness? Responsible eating is a cornerstone of fitness, and being fit carries tremendous benefits: it makes you much healthier, more physically capable (if you think "strong" and "skinny" could be mistaken for each other, I'm guessing you've never embarked on a serious exercise program), and yes, more attractive.
With obesity, diabetes, and premature mortality at record highs in this country, and the proportion of young people fit enough for sports or military service at record lows, we absolutely need MORE Americans need to start watching what they eat, not fewer.
Please stop talking like fitness is nothing more than a vain fixation of beauty queens and online daters. It's ignorant.
8
If it's a contest in being well rounded, physical fitness should be a part of it. Most of those women these days look very fit- lean with muscles. Healthy skin. Well spoken. Generally an artistic talent. Getting a degree. Maybe what they should do is keep the bikini portion, throw in fitness test and throw in an intelligence test. I do not think Miss America should go to someone who is not physically fit.
1
At the risk of alienating those enamored of the beauty pageant world, this might have been an opportunity to declare the day of the Miss America Pageant (and all others) the anachronistic and bygone activity it seems to be.
Traditions are wonderful, but this one has always seemed "off" in relation to being a true "competition" - all the women are beautiful, all are talented and all are deserving of the title.
While we're at it, how about ditching the cheerleaders for professional sports teams........
4
I'll say this much, the women in the photo from 1921 look far more like real women than the ones from the 2017 photo.
5
Will someone in the media please ask for 45's thoughts on this. Just for laughs.
4
The entire idea is archaic. Retire these pageants.
5
O.K., that's it! No bikinis, I'm not watching. This is not a contest about how the contestants "think," it's about how they "look." And if that is "chauvinist" thinking? Tough. I'm looking for beautiful women to "display their wares," and, if that is completely "out of fashion" (pun intended), than so be it. Do away with the Competition! Without the bikinis, you've got nothing.
5
Fellow women travelers (this also applies to men as well), get in touch with what makes you tick, honor it and that's all the beauty you'll ever need. Forget what the world says about you, as long as your strength comes from the inside you will be unshakeable. I've been ignoring what "they" say for quite a few years now. I laugh at Byzantine trends we're supposed to follow and do my own thing...because I'm happy.
4
Amazing writing! Glad iPad allows quick check of the meaning of bombastic and unnecessary synonyms of simple words. Surprised that the article didn’t use “privileged women” and lack of diversity to thrash this silly event. Miss America and Miss World are nothing but glorification of women body and you need to criticize women for participating in that.
I can predict with rare certitude that without the swimsuit competition the Miss America Pageant will quickly disappear because very few will care to watch it.
5
Great article that perfectly captures the hypocrisy of our times. Men will always judge women, in part, based on their physical appearance, because it's hard wired into them, and women know it. They really should just quit doing the Miss American contest, though I expect it will quickly fade into oblivion at this point regardless of their intent.
2
Women don't do all this torturous stuff because men find the results attractive. It's long been said they do it to impress other women. No man in my circle of friends would give a second glance to the emaciated ghoul-like waifs in the NYT fashion pages, while swooning over a smiling 30-40 year old in jeans and a tee shirt wearing sensible shoes.
5
Wonderful column. Insightful. No more bathing suits, no more evening gowns. And from now on it will be on radio! I have to confess I am a lookist. I like to look at a beautiful sunset. And at rainbows, many different flowers, great paintings, at all sorts of things. And I like to look at a beautiful woman. Whether she is in a bathing suit, an evening gown, a business suit, or a winter jacket, I like to see an good looking woman. What is this new equality? Are all women now equally attractive. Are all athletes now equally skilled? Are all books equally interesting? Is all food now equally tasty? Everything is the same? So we can no longer think that in their prime Elizabeth Taylor was more beautiful than say, Julie Harris? Not a better person, not smarter, not a better actress, but just physically more beautiful. And I liked Julie Harris as Abra in "East of Eden". I'm just saying. Or maybe I am just highlighting my patriarchal, hetero, pale-faced, Christian, xenophobic preferences. I even admire beautiful women of every race, creed and color. Even sexual preference. I think a beautiful lesbian is a beautiful woman. Sue me!
6
great comment
1
I've always thought the beauty pageants were stupid and that they reflected American society in several respects. They are nothing more than a popularity contest based on looks and poise. And guess what, folks? That popularity contest will always be with us because it's ingrained in us no matter how much the "not-so-physically-pretty" members of society wish otherwise.
2
I repeat my comment from original story at https://nyti.ms/2Hl2djr - adding only how about body builders who torture themselves tot in order to change (improve?) their physique, no different than beauty contestants. Are clothed body building contests next?
Ms. Carlson stated on GMA that the new Miss America organization will be "Open and transparent," no swim suits, no evening gowns. Is this now a nude show?
I guess Miss America may now look more like Miss Saudi Arabia or Miss Iran.
As empowering as this new phase in Miss America is to some women, it is also dis-empowering to women who chose to compete based on showing off their physique, their fashion, intelligence, and talents as before.
There's enough room for another competition based on the previous rules too with sufficient audience and participants in both. I wonder who's ratings would be better.
1
Back off Bari! I am a heterosexual male and can definitely recognize the difference of shades, and the other differences in the palate of nail polish. And I surely notice it on the hands and feet of my wife.
Maybe we are projecting a little here? hmm?
2
>
Sorry to say, Nature, the Will, and Eros aren’t members in the #MeToo movement, nor is the movement any match for this trio.
Nature is the noumenal (google it) enemy women are battling, but since this is a hopeless and losing battle they have selected lower hanging fruit as their phenomenal enemy, men.
Nature has one and only one objective, fertilization, i.e., sperm on egg.
The Will and Eros are Nature’s plow horses.
It’s all there in your Greek mythology.
‘Not one scrap of an idea of ours does not originate in myth, isn’t transformed, mutilated, denatured mythology.’
Bruno Schulz,
"Science is not distinguished from myth by science being literally true and myth only a type of poetic analogy. While their aims are different, both are composed of symbols we use to deal with a slippery world."
John N. Gray
3
Men (and many women) will stop judging women on their looks when women (and many men) stop judging men on how much money they make.
3
Now there really is no reason to watch the pageant!
2
How women and men prioritize looks is a double-edged sword. Try this experiment. Show men a photo of a beautiful woman, and tell half of them she is a waitress and the other half she is a doctor. All the men will still think she's beautiful and they would all still date her. Now show women a photo of a handsome guy. Tell half the women he is a lawyer and the other half that he is a nighttime assistant manager at McDonald's, then and ask both groups if they would date him. You already know the answer.
7
Similar experiments have been done several times. The results are not surprising. Just as you said.
1
The Miss America pageant has never been about being a sex object. There’s a lot more dignity to the pageant than that. Those who think it objectifies the contestants think that an ordinary bikini sells a woman cheap. These folks need to visit the Riviera.
1
I can't say I won't watch now b/c I never watched. I like watching talented people, but if I do, I'll watch America's Got Talent or something like that; not a revamped Miss America.
That being said, it kind of makes me sad to see the metoo! movement, which started out as an about time movement dedicated to ending sexual abuse and harassment change into something else, so that even some women I know tell me that they have no use for it at all. And not one or two. Overkill drowns out the real value in movements.
This change is part of that overkill. Whether they like it or not, people, men and women, like to look at attractive people. No amount of equality, no amount of wishing will change that. Or that many women, obviously including Greta Carlson, want to feel beautiful. That's what the contest was mainly about, just like a bodybuilding contest is about muscles and football is about great big muscular guys who are also improbably athletic, playing a sport. It doesn't mean that only muscles or beauty or 40 yard dash speed is important or that looks or athletics are everything. It doesn't mean we think bodybuilders, football players or beauty queens have no brains or other talents. It means that is what this those particular contests are about. They should have made their own contest and seen if anyone noticed. Instead, they usurped a contest dedicated to something else than what they are now interested in. If I watched Miss America, I'm sure I would stop.
2
I dated a man years ago who would tell me to wear more make up and sexier clothes, saying "Men are visual. You need to look better." He also complained when my weight went from 115lbs to 125lbs, saying that I was getting too fat for him, and he wasn't attracted to me anymore. By the way, I'm 5'6". Jerks like that are out there, and there are more of them than some may want to believe.
I feel fortunate to have found a husband who doesn't care if I wear make-up or high heels. Not only does he not care that I don't paint my nails, he paints his to help his guitar playing.
Guys who try to force beauty standards on the women in their lives are not worth it. I'd rather be single.
1
I don't see what this comment has to do with the point of the article. The title is the story. Whether some men are manipulated by some women is irrelevant.
How did pretty girls manipulate Harey Weinstein mane Bill Cosby into raping them? Answer: They didn't.
This issue raises the hypocrisy of media extolling #MeToo and women's rights while feeding off the sales value of women's public nudity. In our society sex is a commodity and everyone is guilty.
1
High heels, especially. If it's required by your job, ask why. There is absolutely no reason why this should be the case.
As for the waxing and the money spent on cosmetics, not all women go for that, and they don't seem to do any worse than those who do.
1
Spot on. Everyone who says they haven’t watched the pageant since they were in middle school is probably around 60 now. There was a time and a place. It was America in the 1970s.
I haven't watched this contest in probably 4 decades. However, it seems to me that the new format could be replaced by an essay contest. And it probably should be opened to men as well, to prevent any hint of discrimination. Call it the Young America contest.
1
You use this all-inclusive “we” rather loosely. I for one have never done any of the things you mention. And neither have most of my friends. There is a subset of women who primp like that but I think the percentage is far higher in New York. Which this writer still needs to learn is not the center of the universe. You need a bigger n sample!
4
How will Americans know what the most beautiful woman in America is with the beauty part taken out of the contest?
Ms. Weiss, you are a treasure and remind me a bit of Nora Ephron. I always read any column with your byline. Congrats NYT on featuring such an honest, intelligent, witty writer. (Love the "gauche" line.)
1
It’s so easy to decide in middle school that you don’t want the prize you would win if you did win the beauty contest. World peace, on the other hand, would totally be worth it. Might even be worth a bikini wax.
I mean, maybe we should just have an honest conversation about the fact that most straight men judge women on their looks instead of playing this game where everybody tries to pretend that isn’t true.
Idk that there’s an audience for a pageant that is about listening to women talk — considering the current state of media right now no network would touch that with a twenty foot pole.
Want to empower women? Get rid of this nonsense. This culture is about women's physical appearance. It is embedded everywhere. TV, radio, Internet. People love Melania Trump because of her appearance. This "announcement" does nothing for women. Cancel this altogether and create a foundation to empower girls in the schools. Teach them science, politics, activism, kindness.
3
There are ways of celebrating beauty that exalt rather than objectify women. Pageants are not one of them.
3
What never did it for me about the bathing suit round of Miss America was the contestants styling and posing in bikinis while wearing high heels.
Really, it was like something out of an especially cheesy adult movie.
1
I love how all of the NY Times articles bemoaning the competitions lead with salacious photos of the swimsuit contestants. Oh the tone deaf irony! Maybe CNN will do a retrospective about this horrid event. It would probably get great ratings. A mind-bending contrast of swimsuit modeling and social justice lectures that would satisfy everyone's needs.
1
Yes, we judge women on outward appearances and we tell young women that they need to be ever-so-attractive.
There was a billboard that had a photo of a "perfect" young woman in scrubs. Flawless (airbrushed?) skin with a very delicate makeup job around the eyes. The sign said "You can become a medical technologist at [our business school]" I drove by it every day and I wanted to become a medical technologist so I could be beautiful. I'm a 67 year old man.
2
Most, if not all straight men will never watch the MAC ever again.
Realistically, I think the contest will disappear from the networks unless it comes back more like a spring break contest.
1
On one hand I believe women should not be subjected to unattainable beauty ideals by having essentially naked women parading about in high heels but on the other hand I don't want to take away EVERYTHING that straight men enjoy like leering at beautiful women which in and of itself is not a bad thing. I think they should have left the swimsuit competition in place and stop pretending that they have any higher ideals driving this silly pageant besides profit-making. I don't believe this new development is a win for feminism, at best it's a win for cynicism. I think a better win for feminism would involve having a Mr. America pageant where men would come and parade about essentially naked and women could unabashedly stare at beautiful men, true feminism should seek to free women's libidos not stifle men's (although a libido should never mean resorting to groping or sexual assault which is reprehensible behaviour)
Besides the idea of scantily clad men parading about on a stage is interesting to me as a gay man. ;^)
1
Post modern denial of biology is a result of runaway humanities departments and a complete failure of educators to teach evolution. SJWs, The Lefist Media and Gender Studies profs can demand physical appearance, fertility and health don't matter. To be sure more people than ever have eschewed reproduction for a promised of childess , independent achievement. Are they happier? Not sure. Most adopt pets and human relationships suffer. Fertility rates are now at an all time low in the USA.
Here is a fact feminists will hate: humans objectify everything. That is an essential neural process of learning. We can prove this with Nuerosicence and Nueroimaging studies. You can try and change biology with feminist gibberish but the scans show the same evolutionary attractions exist based on WTH ratios, symmetry, weight etc. For women, the studies show they consider a man's capacity to make money a essential trait for marriage.
The Scandinvian studies show that as gender equity increases women chose LESS STEM degrees not more. They have the more dramatic disparities in science. Can we admit men and women are different ? On average, our personaliy traits influece our projection in life an our interests.
1
Did any of you attend that Deborah Voigt concert at Carnegie Hall, before she had the weight loss surgery? She was amazingly sexy, funny, and talented. She gave us a half hour of encores. It was like a rock concert. We were on our feet dancing and cheering for half an hour. For the sheer sexiness of amazing talent, give me an opera performance any day, I don't care how heavy the singers are, or if they are over 40, over 50, or pushing 70. I want big people with big voices to give me big entertainment. As for Miss America, the parade of human Barbie dolls puts me to sleep. Ditto if they were naked Kens. ZZZZZzzzzz….
1
'Heavy'? 'Big'? How about Ms. Voigt is just a talented woman (within the wide variation of normal sizes) who put on a helluva show? I understand the point you're making -- but 'sizeism' is so ingrained in our culture and in our psyches that even when we try to say something positive about those "of size," we end up calling them out for their size and categorizing them as outside the 'normal' population. We're all guilty of this without realizing it...
Sexual harassment is a bad thing. Most everyone agrees. Ending the swimsuit part of the most prestigious beauty pageant not so much. Women with looks go further than those without. It is a fact of life. It may not be fair, but it’s been that way for a long long time. Have we entered the new miss America talent contest? Seems so. If you got it flaunt it. What’s wrong with that. Men generally are the ones who have to pursue. Ask anyone. They would rather look at beauty on the stage or screen or anyplace than not. Again is it fair? No. Is it reality? Yes. Say goodbye to the miss America beauty pageant and hello to the miss America talent contest. In five years no one will be watching. I’m not even certain why anyone watched in the first place. Gretchen Carlson will not last long. But then again, they said trump would never be president.
1
The Spanish philosopher Jorge "George" Santayana once wrote that "America is a young country with an old mentality." Miss America is strange "competition" that seems to capture the spirit of that idea. It seems almost like a pagan Roman ritual, like the crowning of the vestal virgins. And the fact that some parents even begin preparing their daughters for this ritual at very young ages seems rather troubling to me. I guess I must ask: "Why?"
2
When all is said and done, Miss America is about judging a group of young women against somebody’s criteria for what constitutes an ideal woman. Defining a newly acceptable “admirable” that excludes their near-naked bodies is only a cosmetic change : we are still being invited to judge.
Next up, no make up, no finger nail polish, no hair styles, no hair coloring, no heels, no revealing clothing of any type, no cosmetic surgery, no no no
we, as Americans, are moving in a direction I do not like.
4
How about, next up: Quit parading women onstage and judging them? This is an outdated and meaningless competition. If you don't like the direction we're moving in, there are plenty of places where this kind of thing is still going strong, without any public debate whatsoever. Find one.
On behalf of the human race, I’d like to apologize to Ms. Weiss for the concept of evolutionary biology and wish her a pleasant return trip to her home planet.
8
I'd been hoping that women in general--not just a few brave souls, but women en masse--would rebel against this whole dynamic for a long, long time. I am still hoping.
Too many still internalize all of the garbage they are told about the need to appear according to a certain standard, but what gives the lie to all of it is that the standards change all the time--from curvy to Twiggy to natural to theatrically made-up to fit to waif and round and round and round, mostly in the service of the capitalist imperative to sell magic potions and fashions to people by making them as insecure as possible. Not to mention that different cultures have different standards (and in some it was the males who were expected to "peacock").
Any woman (or man, as this has affected more and more of them in the West over the decades) who believes this is done for the self, for "me", to make "me" feel better and more confident, has not even scratched the surface of the manipulation but has merely internalized the fascist appearance messages put out there by those who do NOT have our best interests at heart--only their commercial interests. And this ties into the increasingly prevalent trend to judge people--men more traditionally in the West, but now often women as well--by the size of their wallets.
I dropped out of that craziness a long time ago. I only hope more people get the courage to do the same.
4
You didn't drop out of the craziness, you dove in and haven't come up for air
Wow! A brilliant, brutally honest, bitter yet occasionally hilarious article!! About time the whole charade is exposed. What an age of self deception we live in. Thank you!
1
You can never stop the phenomenon of trying to look good. Opposite sex attracts and good look is one of the important factor. Change biology and you can change, otherwise, forget it
Weiss: "... telling your date that you just don’t like bread."
If that is a reference to calorie counting, why not just say you are on a diet and pull up a spreadsheet on your smartphone?
Weiss: "... the organization has said so long to the bathing suit competition."
OK, let's replace that with a spreadsheet competition ... :-)
Women are too fragile to handle a program on tv that’s shows women over 18 in bikinis for 20 minutes once a year. The horror of it all. We must protect these women from these... women.
2
This is reverse sexism. It's not the pageant participants, nor the audience who are mainly women, nor the sponsors that have labeled the swimsuit contest sexist. Its a minority of sanctimonious feminist that pervades the media.
Men have a similar contest in the Mr. Universe competition. Where are these anarchic gender neutral soldiers demanding the end to that part of the Mr. Universe contest?
Again and again, we see this drumbeat from a minority of elitest feminist that dominate the media demanding cultural change no one else is calling for. Its this same minority of feminist that gave rise to a Donald Trump and why we will see 8 years of him and his gang of fools in office.
Victimhood is not a path to equality and neither is being out of step from the American public. I wonder if we will ever see a poll of women that supported the termination of this event that was done before the announcement?
1
Oh Please Ms. Carlson! Like any not-esthetically-pleasing woman is going to have a chance to even get on the stage.(Or get a job in broadcasting, or even tending bar.) But we're all supposed to go along with the farce that the contest is all about "brains and empowerment." Is there any arena where a man can gain a scholarship for a single evening's performance for a small panel of dubiously qualified judges? Either be the honest and unpretentiously corrupt, deplorable spectacle you've always been (and a lesson for girls on what the real world is really like) or finally do something to really empower women and shut down entirely.
2
The ladies on display in that photo are incredibly talented.
2
I know a fine gentleman of a man in his 20s who is currently completing university. He recently purchased a puppy for his girlfriend who wanted a border collie, a very costly breed and one that really does not suit urban life. He paid a total of C$2,500 for the dog, the vet bills, and the gear to go along with it. He works two jobs to support himself as a student. He ended up doing all the dog sitting.
He eventually gave away the dog as a great financial loss. He also ended the relationship, and told me he was going to stay out of one until he is finished university because, as he put it, "I can't afford a girlfriend these days". I was taken aback, but he told me women his age expect men to spend a lot of money them, and the more attractive they are, the more spoiled they expect to feel. He told me this is the norm, as experienced by his male peers.
I called my nephew and told him this story. He blurted out "Oh absolutely that's the way it is these days!". He told me that, ironically, that it is these women of this generation who make the most catty, snide remarks about each other's appearance behind each other's backs, typically after issuing a compliment to each other's faces....."While men pretend not to judge women for the way they look"....Attraction is not a judgement, but it is a judgement when competition for attraction is involved.
6
I just want to see a contest with normal women, just as they are meant to be. I am sure that it will be a winner with everyone, as men do like women who remind them of the women in their family, even if they are a little plump.
Wow. People judge others on appearance. Who knew?
2
Yes, women are judged on appearance, and attractive women get breaks faster than those who are less so. Women buy into the image, and buy clothes and make-up color their hair, diet and do all the magic to improve how they present themselves.
And men? Well, the guys my husband calls the "42 regulars" do better than the the men who are not. Generally good looking, bit of a jock, but no more qualified than the tall skinny guy or the short fat guy, the 42 regulars get the jobs faster.
Women and men who play the part reap the benefits, although women get more of a bum deal since they have to be eternally young and men can age. And if a man has enough money and power, he can age gracelessly. Most women can never age gracelessly. No one hires granny.
Miss America is kind of stupid and relatively harmless. The dynamic that we see people who are attractive as being better at things is stupid, too, but fairly ingrained. We could make the effort to be circumspect, but will likely continue to choose unwisely.
3
Oh my gosh, what's next for the American woman now? Miss bath robe & slippers? The most boring and brainy in a business suit? The new empowerment just lost millions in heath,fashion and buauty contracts, Time to put back on your old 70's bras and go back to the best Betty Crocker Competition.
4
While it's traditional to associate visual evaluation to women, it goes on with men too (about them); it's just that the criteria are different. It's not going away, whether spoken or unspoken, explicit or implicit. This is how our species has evolved over millions of years, and employing our rationality and new-era morality to try and remake the way we think has it's limits - and doesn't go very far even at best.
So, wait, you adorn an article about the shallowness of focusing on looks...with a picture of women in bathing suits?
3
Gotta start somewhere.
1
brilliant writing!!!!!!!
This foolish contest is dying.
Desperate times demand desperate measures.
Many thanks to Ms. Weiss for nailing it on the many pressures faced by women to look the way advertisers want us to look! (Yes, men face many pressures too, but they’re not quite so appearance-focused in most cases...)
A number of Miss America winners turned their victories into stepping stones toward respected professions -- news correspondents, actresses, and musicians among them. I don't know of any who became porn stars. That suggests to me that the pageant shone a positive light on the winners and any exploitation was superficial. Those who dwell on exploitation and ignore the respect for the contestants have a chip on the shoulder which doesn't reflect reality.
The entire 'beauty pageant' schtick ought to be declared over and done. Stick a fork in it and carve it up. 'Mr. President' has more than enough opportunity to ogle, grab, insult and profit from young women without making an organized sport out of it. He'll live.
So will the rest of us. Far more happily, in fact.
1
Who's this "we" you speak of?
4
I recently read an essay by a female writer who claimed that after weeks of being harassed by nearly every guy she encountered on her way to the subway, she decided to stuff a pillow down her front to make herself look pregnant. Apparently, this did the trick: she was blissfully ignored. The lesson she learned? Seduction should never be mistaken for liberation. She realized she would rather be liberated than chained to pleasing others.
Making women feel horrible about themselves is big business in this country. In fact, if American women stopped participating in their own oppression through the constant sucking, plucking, cutting, and (of course) shopping, the U.S. economy would come to a grinding halt.
Imagine the possibilities :)
6
I've known averagely-talented women have job offers thrown at them - jobs for which they never applied - purely due to their physical beauty. And I've known unattractive women pushed out of jobs for seemingly minor offenses.
It's not just the domain of beauty pageants, it dominates nearly every facet of the lives of women.
Men, of which I'm one, need to hold ourselves to account and truly judge women in the way we're accustomed to be judged - by our actions, merits, intelligence, social skills, etc.
We need more women in positions of power, and we need men to start thinking beyond their own self-interests/egos.
12
Only in Puritan descended America and the shame trafficking so prevalent in today’s progressivism does a flaunted sexy body stand for ugliness and misogyny instead of joie de vivre and wonder. As Christopher Hirchens said, “I am an object, and so is everyone else”. Women look at my objectness and smile and speak solicitously. Gay men absolutely look at my objectness and signal me. For the most part it’s all innocent and flattering, and deeply natural. And in a few years when this object has perhaps lost its appeal, lines and gray hair and such, that too will be natural and fine. No I have never watched a beauty pageant on tv,- there’s so much else to do, but god bless anyone who wants to. The left is really devolving into a shame driven, puritanical and fearful movement, imo, one needing constant reassurance through righteous indignation, virtue signaling and a paranoia towards any ambiguous feelings, a need to control above all. What a mess...
6
Men are also judged by their looks all the time, in every situation, albeit not to the same degree as women.
3
Ted,
I agree, and so do a number of other male commenters, but we all seem to live in NYC.
Of course women are rated on their looks, and women know it. The pageant (or whatever it chooses to call itself) is engaging in pure hypocrisy if it suggests otherwise. There are good reasons for the standard of physical beauty which are understood best through evolutionary psychology. We are all aware of it even if not conversant in basic science. But a nice article. It punctures some of the balloons of magical nonsense.
1
Thank you for having the insight and courage to write this column. The worst thing that could be done is to patronize people with a facade of authentic reform, perhaps worse than none at all because it normalizes the horror of what these contests represent.
Frankly, a competition of people against each other as people, is sick, and its still objectification. Let's leave the competitions to define specific areas of achievement, rather than judging people.
3
No matter how we try to re-script the Miss America pageant to focus on the inner qualities and strengths of women, that will never change the fact that this is owned and run by a group of men who are parading around a willing group of women for the entertainment of many and to the ultimate detriment to all who it is purporting to represent - women. The idea of it and the rules are created by men (until now) and it is CREATED, OWNED AND OPERATED BY MEN AT THE HIGHEST LEVELS. Men are great but why can’t we see the imbalance of power here and how were playing into it? Why do we keep trying to keep this thing going? Why don’t the men parade other men around on stage for us all to judge? Why should us women be paraded around on a stage to compete and be judged on something that men would never do. Imagine if we had a media company owned by women and a news organization owned by women who come up with an idea to parade a bunch of men around on stage and judge them on whatever (looks, strength, who can do the most manly things, speaking, etc), all the whole trying to play it off as if there’s nothing sexist here and this is perfectly normal because it buildst character. There are lots of other ways to build character and it’s time to let this one go. Our times are waaaaaybahead of it. Gretchen
Carlson’sintentions are good but the best thing she could do to improve this competition is call for an end to it.
Women in small bikini swimsuits was always tiresome and meaningless in a TV audience format. Otherwise however, the interviews were blockbusters of walking and chewing gum criteria. Obviously, she's beautiful, but can answer questions without coming across as a ditz was perfect for the TV audience. In America the stereotype is pretty but dumb as a rock predominates beauty contests, then and, regrettably now. So, I'm guessing, as long as the questions remain the show will be loved and watched.
As a tall man, I know men and women are judged differently but they are both still judged. So height stood in my favor as did a decent voice and so on. A short man is in as much trouble as a heavy woman. Both must work harder.
But ... strong as a euphemism for skinny? I think not. Maybe outspoken.
2
I might be missing something, but I don't know anyone personally who takes the pursuit of beauty, thinness, etc. to the extreme described in this article. There have always been people who are hyper-critical of women's appearances, but often trying to impress them is a fruitless exercise. While there are certainly pressures and expectations all women face, at a certain point, dedicating this much time and energy to one's appearance is a choice. (Obviously this excludes people with eating disorders -- that is not a choice!) I am curious why certain people are very motivated to puruse a specific "look," while others don't feel this pressure to the same degree.
2
@LP: As often happens on the Times op-ed pages, Weiss is writing about people I don't relate to or even recognize from my own environment (the Rocky Mountain West). I'm sure they must exist, but only as a subset of Manhattanites and Brooklynites fiercely competing with each other. Presenting them as representative of anyone other than themselves isn't really valid.
3
I'm not sure if this is what Weiss was getting at, but I agree that society should be more honest about how we value appearances. There has been such a backlash against "fat shaming" and the like that people can now feel ashamed for wanting to lose weight, possibly to look more attractive. I do disagree that talking about appearances in terms of health is just code for "skinny", etc. rather it is just a more accurate way of describing why someone looks "good." It is true that eating a health-promoting diet (which usually does include lots of greens, possibly blended) leads to a healthier weight which also - not by coincidence - looks more attractive. Someone without the chronic illness and diseases related to the standard American diet is also more attractive.
Many of the other things mentioned in the article I would say have nothing to do with what men want, and are more about women judging each other's appearance. We will never achieve a society where women and men are not judged by their appearance as long as humans still have sexual desire and there's no need to feel ashamed for acknowledging this.
4
As a former Miss America volunteer, I can speak a bit about what happened behind the scenes when the Ms A pageant was originally held in Atlantic City. There were hundreds of local volunteers who made it possible to host this nationally televised event. Some opened their homes and hosted the contestants, others served as chaperones or provided security, there were those who drove cars to ferry the contestants to the various locations during the week long contest and there were even those who prepared the food for the rest of the volunteers. The list goes on...
At my post by a backstage door, I was privileged to watch the women - even the youngest girl (at my age, 18 is a girl, heck 30 is still a girl...) had more poise and self confidence than I could ever aspire to. The week they spent in AC to compete for the crown was a culmination of many years of other local contests, but more so, this grueling week showed the stuff that these women were made of - intelligence for sure, poise and confidence absolutely, with beauty and talent completing the picture.
But what I think was lost when the Miss America contest left Atlantic City was the camaraderie and fellowship of those volunteers who made this event happen year after year.
7
So does this mean all the contestants will actually be talented? Or will the evening gown competition be awarded more points? Ms. Weiss is right that "We are being watched and scrutinized and judged. We are watching and scrutinizing and judging." Though exacerbated by modern culture, objectification seems to be built into us all, as it is in other species (e.g., the elaborate courtship displays of some birds). The key thing is how we act on it.
1
This article feels more like a sad commentary on the pressure Ms. Weiss feels to be perfect than about progress at the beauty contest. Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't know about half the things you mention doing in the article. Be healthy, work hard, be a good person, and don't worry about what everyone else thinks. You'll get along just fine. I don't minimize the objectifying. It's very real, and I think Miss America should have gone away a long time ago. But good grief Ms. Weiss, determine your own fate!
7
Beauty will ALWAYS matter. People need to accept this as well as the fact that most of us are average in every way: intellect, creativity, endurance, strength, bone size, body fat percentage, hair density etc.
1) stop comparing to others
2) realize low confidence is a way bigger issue than light waves refracting through the cornea at a slightly wider angle
5
"It’s that I looked at them and felt confident I was a different species. I’m sure the bikinis had something to do with it."
Please do elaborate on the other reasons you felt these contestants were not fully human.
1
People need to get real. Yes, swimsuit contests objectify women and reward women who work out, are in good shape and look good. I dont see anything wrong in that. If you dont like it, dont participate, or watch.
But to pretend that nobody cares if women look good or not and all that matters is their inner beauty etc is simply unreal. Maybe one day we will all reach that high plane of existence where looks no longer matter - today is not that day!!!
3
We have all heard some Miss Americas contestants speak, and it can be pretty frightening. If they can truly ignore looks and get some less vacuous contestants, great. But if the earlier competitions feeding into this thing are beauty contests, then you are selecting for a pool of largely empty-headed young women whose lives revolve around their looks, suddenly judged on anything but looks. The results could be "ugly." I look forward to the NFL deciding to select their cheerleaders on the basis of their calculus scores.
1
This makes me glad that I don’t “have it all”!
Seriously, though, until powerful upper-class women revolt and refuse the beauty regimen laid out for them, we will never escape the tyranny of spike heels, botox, daily starvation, really silly exercise classes, expensive makeup that takes hours to put on, and all the rest. I thought the feminist movement meant that we didn’t have to wear spike heels and we weren’t in constant competition with our friends for resources (read, men and jobs, in that order).
So ditch the upper-class uniform, ladies. It just makes you look silly. Trust me, you’ll feel much better in khakis or mom jeans.
6
Presumably we can try to make a difference between "judging" and otherwise perceiving attractiveness. But wont the bottom line be that people will be attracted to/judge other people of the opposite/same/either sex according to their ... attractiveness? Until perhaps genetic engineering rewires our brains so we find everyone equally superficially attractive? And will that be fun...?
3
There is being attractive and there is Miss America. The pageant was only interesting because of its atavistic rituals. Watching Miss America made everyone an anthropologist. Without all the absurd categories (swimsuits in high heels, talent, evening wear, etc.) it has no appeal. Miss America contestants are like auto-tuned voices. They all start looking the same after a while. We have the technology to make all women look like they came out of the same silicon mold. Without the bikini march the men will have to watch Survivor or the weather girl on local news. Women will have to pay closer attention to magazines at the checkout counter. The author is certainly correct, women strive for ideals so outdated they never really existed. And that may be the saddest part. Women are weaponized to make other women feel insecure and buy into the whole lie. An endless cycle of consumerism. The author of this column clearly demonstrates the damaging effects–bitter, resentful, jealous, insecure, competitive, and sad. Removing the bikini strut or cancelling the pageant altogether will not empower anybody. Denying it of its power is the way. Laugh at it. It is stupid beyond belief. It always was. Is it any wonder Trump used to run the thing?
10
Men are judged for their looks, too. Everybody is. All the time. A revelation only to those who think the Miss America competition is about world peace.
13
You are missing something here. It was a Beauty Contest. It was voluntary. You know what you are signing up for. Can't cook? Don't sign up for the Cooking Contest. The problems come when you call it a job interview requiring certain skills, and the judges turn it into a Beauty Contest.
13
this was a great read. i particularly liked the Makeup that looks like you are not wearing makeup. i busted a gut then, thanks.
3
I think only a guy could bust a gut: if you have - like too many of us females - spent time on this seemingly impossible goal --spending inordinate amount of time preparing to look better BUT keeping all such prep undetectable -- you might groan!
1
Cheryl i know you are correct. it was my response to a great comic line with the total element of truth.
In Australia, beauty pageants aren't even televised anymore. Miss Australia I am understand is 'cast' by an agency who arranges her itinerary in pageants overseas.
3
Funny piece, if I’m allowed to say so! Is it just the power of the dread ‘male gaze’ that locks many women into the contortions exposed here, or is it the dread gaze of sisters? Deep issues here, not to be settled at any beauty pageant. As a guy, I am hesitant to reveal that all the costumes, not just the bikinis, all the hair work, all the footwear; all of it transmits the same focus. The whole show is only a display of merchandise, an oft-described cattle auction. Mess with that, American society, and you’re messing with the fluffy pretense of what we call our civilization.
12
This piece is so extreme, I could have never imagined Bari Weiss, a self-professed member of the intellectual dark web writing it. It basically parrots radical feminist talking points. Consider how shocking this line is, for example:
'But far too often when I hear a man describe a woman as “super fit,” my brain substitutes some variation of Mr. Trump’s locker-room talk.'
And, about all the complaints about makeup, it's possible to spend less money and time on it despite the subtle pressures that exist. Many women do exactly that, in fact.
3
Yes, we are living in a world that judges people by their appearance. As a sexual species this is, has been and will forever be the human condition. This is not a function of "our culture" for it is of all cultures that currently exist or have ever existed. It is as sexual attraction based on appearance is as primal as the need to eat, sleep or breath. To think otherwise is delusionary.
Nobody should be forced to be a sexual object but nobody should anyone be denied the right to be one either.
8
Of course men are also judged in a deeply superficial way--but instead of purely looks (it is looks to a large degree), it is also physical strength. These articles never accept this--that physical strength affects not only your own personal safety, but your attractiveness to women, your inclusion into many circles, your ability to be perceived as in charge, and your likelihood of being embarrassed or humiliated.
3
At its foundational level, the pageant is a scholarship opportunity for the winner. Here's a thought: teach your daughters to work a part-time job while in high school, save all their pay, work part-time while in college, use both those earnings, whatever high school scholarships they earned, and whatever you provide to pay their tuition and fees. Now, if they stay out of the dating and marriage pools in their late teens and early twenties, that is a formula for success.
No matter what "gifts" you were born with, what DNA you inherited, or the extent to which your success is the result of hard work and determination life can still seem unfair or deal devastating blows. In the end, grace, generosity, and humility define humanity and should be cherished most.
2
We have a huge beauty pageants going on all the time for women, and these pay out astounding amounts of money and status to the winners. They are called 'Modeling' and 'Celebrity Living' and 'Newscasting' and 'Dating/Courting' and Socializing'. Men get judged very often for strength, courage, and the ability to compete and win, and women often get judged on appearing attractive, fertile, skilled in areas men are not usually skilled in and being socially adept. I think that it has something to do with characteristics that result in families surviving. But hey, let's pretend those things don't matter and have a show without them!
6
Sticking with sashimi so you can sneak in an extra glass of rose later—that’s funny—because it’s so true.
It shows you play the game as obsessively as any of the rest of us—and that’s good. We’re all shallow insecure creatures no matter how serious and deep we like to pretend to be.
3
And there is another negative aspect to beauty contests which has not been mentioned. Perhaps most of the participants in this article’s 2017 swimsuit photo have “spray painted tans,” but they are still sending out the message that you should be deeply tanned to be attractive in a bathing suit, and that is an extremely unhealthy/dangerous message to be giving to the teenage girls who watch these programs. The incidence of melanoma is rising among young women due to teenage sun exposure and the use of tanning beds, and beauty pageants help to perpetuate the idea that being tan is beautiful and healthy. It is not.
Making the pageant about anything than beauty simply makes it completely superfluous, and it was pretty superfluous already. Who needs a general contest about 'talents'? There are plenty of those. There are writing contests, acting careers, there is science, people compete in sports contests. If you are good at any of those, go and compete. Miss America was about looks, nobody cares about all the rest of it.
And in any case, everyone is partly judged on their appearance, and there is nothing wrong with that. What we are seeing is that in a nation where a majority of the people are letting themselves go and are overweight or obese and thus NOT good-looking and not healthy, there is a movement to establish this not-so-new normal as the standard. I guess it is a lot easier to remove the real role models from the public eye and replace them with people who are just as lazy and overweight as yourself, so you will feel better even if you are just as uncared and unhealthy as before. Just drag everyone else down to your level. When in reality it is possible and in fact easy for EVERYONE to be in the same shape these bikini models are. That is NOT an unrealistic standard, it is how people naturally look if they aren't mistreating their body.
8
People taping their boobs, getting plastic surgery, starving themselves were never normal. And you are completely wrong, it is not medically possible for most people to look that way. Not in their 20s, and certainly not after that. Look at the studies done on the biggest loser contestants, just as one example. You seem to think Miss America contestants are role models, and are exuding disgust for anyone obese. Your comment really illuminates your dispicable values.
2
Uh. . . no, GS. Your statement that " in reality it is possible and in fact easy for EVERYONE to be in the same shape these bikini models are" is completely false. People come in all shapes and sizes, and the fact that THIS particular shape of a woman's body is considered "ideal" at the moment is simply a cultural preference, not some fact of human nature. To suggest that those of us WITHOUT that particular appearance are "lazy and overweight" "uncared and unhealthy," "mistreating their body," and "not good-looking" just exposes your bias and complete ignorance of this issue. All people have value . . . not just those who are pleasing to YOUR eyes.
If they aren't judging beauty, what are they judging? Talent? That's never been a highlight of these events. Intelligence? That's what scholarships are for. Maybe we could just stop this pointless competition.
10
Just returned from Europe where I had not only a respite from Trump coverage, but from endemic obesity of women and men. Yes, we all objectify and I have and am objectified, as well as doing the same to others. How is it different to judge a person’s carriage and corpus than their diligence and intellect?
Beauty pageants are a bit over the top but they recognize both inherited attributes as well as hard work. Perhaps they shame those who lack the same.
Life is not fair but changing Miss America does not take things one step in changing that reality. But it may take us one more step towards a society steeped in denial and avoidance.
8
To be "good looking" definitely helps, but if people aren't taught that intelligence and personality are far more advantageous in the long run, they are going to be in for a difficult road.
Kudos to Gretchen Carlson for changing this archaic nonsense, but keep in mind, she played the game herself (quite well) and was able to make it at Fox for many years using her looks to advance her career.
If a troglodyte like Roger Ailes was able to use women's looks against them, think what the good looking guys can do.
Teach your daughters that they have worth whether they look like a beauty contestant or not. We will all be better for it.
7
Why are the most brutal judges in the pageant of life women?
Why are the editors of women’s magazines with responsibility for content on diet, fashion and selection of models women?
If women feel oppressed by euphemisms such as “fit” and “healthy”, recall that men are held to the standards of “successful”, “team player” and more. Those are codes too. Men don’t get a pass in the Age of Swipe.
Years ago on Match, young women barely out of college were seeking men in income categories unthinkable even for Wharton grads. I used to think, “are they serious?” Dreaming or not, their requirements reflected their way of judging men.
We’re all judged by superficial standards. If that feels unfair, then maybe we should value good and honest hearts above all. I wonder how they’ll measure that at the new and improved Miss America Contest?
11
Ok, great. Now with the swimsuit competition out of the way, I can nominate my contenders for Miss America, the woman who embodies the best of feminine America. I'll start with four:
Lynette Nieman, chief of the Endocrinology Consultation Service at the NIH Clinical Center and groundbreaking researcher into cortisol related diseases. (I may have a conflict of interest here. Dr. Nieman saved my wife's life after she contracted Cushing's disease.)
Mary Scullion, founder of Project Home, a Philadelphia based organization housing the homeless. Sr. Mary is revered for her tireless work on behalf of the poor.
Tayari Jones, novelist extraordinaire, following in the marvelous tradition of southern women writing fiction.
Gretchen Carlson, nationally prominent news anchor, author, violinist, who rallied women to stand up to abuse from powerful men. Ms. Carlson is now in charge of the Miss America pageant, so, again, perhaps a conflict of interest. Also, she previously won the honor, so there might be a constitutional issue with her running for a second term.
14
It is an excellent move since it would eliminate the enormous anxiety women must go through in order to exhibit certain definitions of physical beauty, not to mention halt in its tracks, the "low grade male (and female) prurience" bubbling in the audience.
But the evolution of the pageant shouldn't stop there. For example, it might now be called 'Ms America's Got Talent' That way, the contest would be open to women of all shapes sizes.
And I agree with Garcia's comment in this thread: a big advantage is that it would most likely greatly diminish the interest of Donald Trump to prowl around dressing rooms with his disgusting, infantile, plans of abuse.
2
How do you propose it'd eliminate "the enormous anxiety" that you talk about? If you do think there is a patriarchy out there that makes women do things, why would you think it operates only through one beauty pageant called Ms America?
Regarding the "Got Talent" suggestion, there is no rationale I see for limiting such a contest by gender. There are already many "Got Talent" shows out there.
1
I agree with Barry Weiss that it is “a competition.” But now is the time to ask: what are we competing for? Haven’t we as women been complicit in keeping the stakes too small? In focusing on outward beauty, have we given up our goals to lead politically and economically? How many of us know of once-beautiful women who have been tossed aside by a man as they have aged? It’s up to women to reinvent female empowerment and engagement by focusing more on our mental and emotional development by reading, writing, inventing new products and services, working to solve problems that are facing us all, whether it’s economic inequality, reproductive rights, sexism and an endangered planet. There’s nothing wrong with lipstick and eye makeup and weight control used judiciously—but let us ask ourselves, how long do we want to continue wasting our precious lives obsessing over futile and childish things while millions of women suffer from poverty and ignorance and sexual exploitation. Ladies and gentlemen: let us remember that it was a woman who was the only person to earn two Nobel prizes, one in physics, the other in chemistry. Her name was Marie Curie and she gave a whole new meaning to being a woman and being in a competition.
5
Weiss does everyone a great disservice by equating fat with independence.
"Strong" only means "skinny" if you think that being overweight is a normal or desirable condition.
Our country is experiencing an epidemic of obesity and all of the health problems that go with it.
Implying that women who take control of their health by losing weight and getting in shape are being objectified by men is a destructive message.
8
While I, too, could not imagine as a young girl growing up to be like the women in beauty contests, I could also appreciate the pageantry. The female body is beautiful (when fit and healthy). It is particularly attractive to males, and to strive for it not to be a factor in mating goes against not just nature, but human nature. After all, synonymous with the Women's Liberation movement was dressing to show off the body like never before. (Why was that a good idea, again?) Women artists presenting themselves in the nude to make some abstruse point...hot pants...less and less decorum when it comes to covering one's self in the workplace...one of my most ostensibly "feminist" friends constantly takes selfies with emphasis on her cleavage to post on Instagram. Her self worth seems predicated on how many men are paying attention to her. (I am not this type of woman.) I seem to understand this as an aspect of female nature that I just don't happen to share. But is it something that women like me should discourage other women from doing? Why must all women rebel against what nature intended? It also seems to me that a swimsuit competition IS a competition of confidence. It's not easy to parade around in a swimsuit on a stage like that. Honestly, I'm sad to see it go. Just because I'm not like that doesn't mean I can't appreciate that some women want to be appreciated for their looks. Are we going to end bodybuilding contests because we shouldn't appreciate the body at all?
5
Nature, in her wisdom for the purpose of reproduction of our species, has made males visually stimulated by the sight of attractive females. Females want to mate with males who will be good providers for, and strong protectors of, our children and us as mothers of our children. Vive le difference.
5
Eliminating the most offensive part the the pageant is a welcome move. At the end, it is still a beauty contest with less skin showing. The part where the contestants talk about world peace and ending hunger is the dishonest part!
3
I'm a woman (65) and I for one will miss the swim suit part of the competition! These women are the epitome of beauty and fitness (sure, partly natural beauty and the rest enhanced by products and a LOT of exercise). Why deny that?
3
And 'plus size women'? Where are they in this?
Not denying it at all, but the same can be said of centerfold models and many athletic porn actresses - parading women’s bodies for profit is using lust as financial opportunity.
Men are judged by their looks as well. It might not be as obvious, but the pressures on young men to look a certain way and act a certain way are enormously powerful. From the high school caste system, through the fraternity system in college and on to life out of school men judge each other and rank each other on superficial traits that say nothing about the man’s character.
4
I’m still waiting for a just-as-popular Mr. America contest to balance things out, but there isn’t one. Why not? Because a group of handsome, buff and accomplished intelligent young men being judged for their looks sets off the gay-dar. Which just proves (among other things) that if Miss America actually wasn’t about looks, there’d be an equivalent Mr America pageant.
1
It's a refreshing column from Weiss on the fact that a crass, anti-feminist, patriarchy is still thriving in the lucrative corners of our corporatized capitalist culture.
Good riddance to the bikini portion of Miss America. But obviously we should be getting rid of Miss America pageant entirely. We live in an image saturated media circus society. One can dream that some day we can start celebrating men and women for things like: creativity, sensitivity, genuineness, and intelligence. As a single man looking for a partner, I hope so. I'd certainly like to meet women who associate "healthy" with those kinds of characteristics, rather than skinny with thick make-up on.
3
You seem to have missed the Nobel Prizes, Pulitzer Prizes, Peabody Awards, National Book Awards, CLIIO, Oscar, Emmy, Golden Globe, SAG Awards and college admissions, which celebrate and reward intelligence, creativity and a multitude of talents. Sensitivity and genuineness are celebrated by friends, family, the church and it would appear, "partner"-seekers looking for those qualities. Getting rid of the Miss America pageant will not enhance or detract from any of the aforementioned.
1
I used to have a pretty simplistic attitude towards so many women's seemngly constant efforts to be "beautiful" or at least as beautiful as they could be. Then during the Bosnian War of the 1990s I saw a news segment on that conflict's dreaded urban snipers. The newscaster while relating the true dangers facing the city's citizens incredulously noted some women risked their lives crossing the "danger zone" to reach the city's only functioning beauty parlour. I bought into the derision. My first thought was, "Wow! Risking your life to get to a beauty parlor. Women!" But the images stuck with me. Then I realised why. Those women in that violent war torn environment not at all of their own making were trying to survive and in that environment risking your life to get to the beauty parlor made perfect sense. Without other resources all that some of these women had to leverage their treatment even the survival of themselves and no doubt their loved ones was their appearance. Hence getting to the beauty parlor was no exercise in air headed female vanity but rather a courageous act emanating from a cold calculation few males would ever be forced to contemplate. True. All women may not be living in an official combat zone but whether your trying to make it in the corporate environment or having a random run in with officialdom it's a continuum.
3
The last vestiges of the slave market. Once women are willing to give up the power that male defined beauty gave (some of) them, we can all put it aside like a bad memory.
Women's beauty is still a precious well spring of human life, but commodified and controlled by men it became part of the culture and economic of advertising and adolescent pornography.
Great to see women defining their consensus in female terms. Can human salvation be far off now?
2
Feminist Gloria Steinem described the pageant as a display of "physical appearance and other irrelevant talents". Basic biology says physical appearance is anything but irrelevant when it comes to attraction between the sexes, and pretending that it is is just silly. Youth, physical health and vitality have always been deeply ingrained markers of fitness for procreation. If you don't believe this, ask any woman if she's more "interested" in an fat, balding 30-something man than a fit and attractive one, all else equal. Double standard, anyone?
3
You are going to be judged for your looks. You will always be judged for your looks. Men are also judged for their looks. If women are judged more so than men, that is something to change; and if it affects their career outcomes more than men that should change as well. But don't assume that this equality will result solely from men settling for less attractive women. As women become more financially successful and independent, the importance of attractiveness in their preferences in men will increase. And this is a good thing, because as a general rule, healthier people are more attractive than unhealthy people.
3
What a refreshingly provocative column, I daresay I might have missed the enjoyment of reading it I hadn’t seen the colorful photo that piqued my interest...guilty as charged.
3
So many commentators mention the fact that humans instinctively respond to physical beauty as if that’s the end of the conversation. What’s most encouraging about humans is they have the capacity to be aware of how biology controls them and adjust behavior based on more worthy yardsticks. Greed, revenge, tribal loyalty, sexual desire are all instinctive, yet most of us manage to ameliorate those drives for higher purposes. (Unless you’re part of the executive or legislative branches of the federal government, that is). Men and women have the capacity to reject instinct and minimize assigning worth by factors largely out of our control. Our culture doesn’t support doing that but as many have pointed out, a lot of us don’t buy into that culture.
3
"Men and women have the capacity to...minimize assigning worth by factors largely out of our control." Agreed. I just wish people would "assign" worth to others due to factors WITHIN other's control, such as industriousness and willingness to delay gratification. The world would be far better off.
1
Also, biology "controls" us for some very good reasons - procreation being numero uno.
As an extraordinarily handsome man, one who kept fit (lots of muscle tone), and blessed with an intelligent face, I too have been the target of objectification. Lo, the number of clubs I walked into, only to be undressed by raging, progesterone-inflamed lust.
But, unlike women, now that I’m a soft nearly 70, and 50 pounds overweight, I am still objectified as every young woman’s grandpa.
1
Only a certain percentage of women follows even a portion of the regimen described by Weiss. Yet, have you seen the crowds in Ulta, Beauty Brands, and Sephora on a Saturday? Women have bought into the idea that this torture is our choice. Nah, patriarchy wins again.
1
Me are 100% judged on their appearance as well. And we constantly worry about working out, eating right, crossfit, etc...
2
Women have as many competitive outlets as men, I assume that those who choose beauty pageants enjoy competing in them. They have chosen their favored "sport" because it's what they want to be good at. When other women belittle their choice, they are not championing free choice. They are dictating which choices are acceptable and which are not. To them, feminism is about doing what they say, it isn't about women doing what they want.
3
With respect, "healthy" and "strong" do not in current usage necessarily imply dangerously slender. "Curvy" and "healthy" however do seem increasingly used to excuse unhealthy obesity. There are very few 4X women who are "healthy" compared to size 2.
6
I totally appreciate the content of this column but I take exception to the implication that it's only women who have to make an effort with their appearance. Men too are under pressure to be physically presentable and well-groomed in the workplace (and at home, if they value their relationships). And if age is hard for women, its tough on men too. Try losing your hair at the same time it starts sprouting out of some really weird places. And if you work in a young industry and are over the age of 40, you'd better have an on point wardrobe or you will be judged as out of date and out of touch. Let's face it, as a society we are obsessed with appearances.
6
This is an excellent column. I have always said I somehow missed the “girl lessons” that prepared my older sisters for life as attractive women. Truth is, I never saw the point. But I have paid handsomely for that over my 61 years, and I hope young women who choose to forego the mandated beauty routines now will be left in peace to be who they want to be. I hope the same thing for those who love those routines. Men seem to have a far wider range of acceptable appearance.
8
A man can be immensely successful -- even in Hollywood! -- if he is older, balding, bald, paunchy, overweight, out of shape, etc. A woman cannot. You can still make a film and put 55 year old Tom Cruise in the lead, and it will earn $200 million at the box office. How many 55 year old female movie stars are there, who could headline a movie? Who are not cast (if they work at all) as "somebody's mom"? And even to get THAT, they have to been trim, in shape and have had plastic surgery. Most women disappear entirely from "show business" by their early 40s or even before that.
1
But most people think Cruise looks 45. Also, he's in amazing shape and hangs from airplanes. Cruise has to do more stunts as he gets older. Also, he no longer kisses women in his movies.
They might as well rename the contest "Miss Talented." There are very talented women (and men), who would be judged by many or most to be physically unattractive. I think I would watch, after not watching for more than 30 years.
Think of someone like Barbara Streisand. I wouldn't call her unattractive, but she would not have made it past the first round. Today she would be the winner.
2
Of course people are judged by their looks. Men and women, boys and girls. Everyone loves a cute baby. The issue for women is that appearance can become an obstacle to success, love, money, power, or any opportunity. It is tough to live an uglier life. Be clear that some men will choose the more attractive computer scientist over the less attractive during that critical job interview. Bias is real. Those pictures on dating apps give men unfair power, and women go along with the fraud. Women are complicit by failing to insist on equal opportunity and fair pay. Women will evolve once they start wanting men to judge them less for looks and more for substance. Women will evolve once they stop competing with each other based only on beauty. Women will evolve once they stop waiting for men to pick them out of beauty lineups each and every day, in the store, subway, at work, or home. Just don't hold your breath waiting.
5
Looks matter, it is baked right into our biological cake. It is unfair, and often deceiving, but as pointed out, as human as any other of our behaviors.
35
This is true, but at no time in human history have we carried our looks-obsession to such an extreme. Technology has given us the most aggressively visual culture the world has ever known—"Pictures or it didn't happen." Women not only have to be attractive; they're now judged against the most "perfect" (and often artificial) images on Instagram. Look at paintings or photos of women who were considered beautiful 100+ years ago, and you'll see that the standards have gotten out of control.
7
I do not recognize my mother or my grandmother--or for that matter, my adult daughter--in this New York-styled essay that supposedly addresses some inert contradiction of modern life, ostensibly, I think about beauty, values, gender, sexual attraction, objectification, and high heels--all framed against the Miss American event and its efforts to challenge its male parochialism and misogyny with something that continues the idea of competition and hard work, while changing its image in a media-driven world. Did I get it right?
If I did, obviously, the over-layers of ideas could could use refinement, narrowing their vision, to find its truth. Did any Miss America win because of her swim suit scores? Did any Miss America lose because her tape came undone? Why exactly is it so hard to define what the event stands for?
Like Christmas parades, it has always seemed a bit of fun, esp. when Bert Parks was around, an hyped sorority tea with glintz and good manners, each of us at home imagining the bless-your-heart villainy beneath the surface. That tension, surviving it, seemed central to its success.
TV viewers enjoyed the handicapping at home. Then it was put a way, like Christmas wrapping, for a year. In her year of appearances, Miss America never came to my hometown, or nearby. Miss South Carolina won a couple of times, I felt pride.
Pretty much, it was a safe zone. If hidden dangers have been removed, maybe it is simply an annual indulgence, a sweet slip of incorrectness.
6
Fine comment, Mr. Rhett. Yes, the Miss America bikini contest was pure Christmas wrapping, a mildly titillating daydream that went up in smoke just like all that Santa Claus paper in the fireplace.
The gorgeous and glamorous Vanessa Williams came to our town in Oregon early in her reign. She was dazzling. It meant equality at the time. She was important despite later events that year, and continued on to make a success of her life.
1
I think Ms. Weiss is saying that it was never all that "sweet".
Sadly, it is not just women who are judged by looks. There is a clear association between a man's height and his salary. https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/05/the-financial-perks...
In the past, women were valued as breeders to settle the plains and secure a future for a family line. Wide hips meant wider pelvises and easier deliveries. Most likely, the bustle and the hoop skirt emphasized these features as a reflection of that value.
In times of scarcity, women who would now be called obese were celebrated. They are called Rubenesque for a reason.
Beauty is too often a condensate of our ideas and a shortcut in navigating a difficult world. It is clearly judgmental and often wrong but differentiating a kitten from a young saber-tooth tiger cub can save your life.
When practicing medicine and taking a medical history, if I had the time, I have asked patients to tell me in what way they are a special person. I never found anyone without an answer and those answers were often revelatory. One woman whose burned hand I had just dressed told me her special ability was signing (ASL). She told this surprised doctor she used this skill to talk to her mute sister. I immediately cut off her dressing.
If we can take the time to see and to understand, everyone is beautiful.
39
Wow, so now it's illegal to wear a bikini?
The contest for looks long predates our species. Even dinosaurs did it (although interestingly, in birds, it's the male who struts about and shows his plumage).
They can have the Miss America contestants parade around in potato sacks and it ain't gonna make a jot of difference -- after all, as the old joke goes, they're there to display their brains.
5
In all of Nature it is the male that is the beauty element. Only in humanity has it become twisted, the roles reversed. Patriarchy is unnatural.
Carl, that isn't true -- for example, the females of other primate species have sexual displays -- but even if it were, it couldn't possibly be unnatural, as we are what we are by virtue of nature.
What you are observing is species adaptation to an ecological niche.
1
I haven't watched a pageant since the early 1970s, at which time it might have been the only thing on TV. I also don't follow beauty regimens. I don't wear makeup unless I'm giving a speech under very harsh lighting. My hair is very short and dries in minutes. I don't wear painful heels.
I do, however, dress appropriately for the situation given cultural norms -- a dress, a skirt, a nice pair of slacks. I wear pantyhose and jewelry in such situations, too. Like most women, I can't wait to get home and take my bra and dress clothes off!
I also "work out". I bike, I lift light weights, I play tennis and pickle ball. I run agility with my three dogs. I watch what I eat, too, striving to eat mostly natural foods, minimally processed. I weigh what I weigh, and if I don't like it I work out a little harder for a week or two or cut the amount of peanut butter I consume by half for a while. I've had rheumatoid arthritis for 27 years now, so I do take pains to keep myself strong and flexible. I don't do it to look good -- if that's a side effect, fine. I'm not physically beautiful or model-like at 5' 4" tall. I'm probably "average" looking, you know, like most people.
I don't have a problem with women (or men) voluntarily joining a competition that judges their appearance. I'm not going to watch it, 'though. Some people were born with the gift of physical beauty. I was born with the gift of a powerful intellect. Be yourself!
22
OK, but if you were watching anything in TV in the 70s, you must be north of 50. You don't care because you do not have to compete for a mate.
I don't do those beauty regimens myself, but I did when I was young and wanted to attract "the male gaze".
BTW, this is not about good grooming -- being clean, neat, bathing regularly -- trimming your finger nails -- cutting your hair appropriately -- eating healthfully or staying fit. It's about a LOT more than that and you know it! A woman can do ALL OF THOSE THINGS, and still by being a "loser in the genetics lottery", be considered homely and undesirable.
Men do not choose girlfriends or wives based on powerful intellects, or we'd live in a very, very different world.
1
Quiz:
What was Hedy Lamarr known for?
a) extreme beauty.
b) frequency hopping.
I think we all know the answer.
Clue: 99.9% of Americans wouldn't know what frequency hopping was if it fell on them.
23
c) her acting ability.
1
Quiz:
What was Jayne Mansfield known for?
a) her bra size
B) she had an IQ of 165 and was a physics major before moving to acting.
It's not the judging of beauty that's the problem. It's the blinding to everything else a woman may have to offer.
4
That’s Hedley!
Yes, but. I think the larger problem is that *people* are judged by their looks, or at least their appearance. The particular problem with beauty pageants is that they're so obvious. On the other hand, it's also their saving grace. No one can doubt what the're about. But don't doubt for a moment that a telegenic man doesn't also have a huge advantage over men outside the bodyshape bell curve.
19
"It is, as Ms. Carlson said, a competition."
And it always will be.
Competition for mates based on physical differentiation is an ineluctable principle of nature. See, eg, plumage on birds. And dating apps.
An equally ineluctable natural principle is inequality of outcomes. Birds with amazing plumage win the mating game and we all know why we "swipe right" (or want to).
Yes, the bikini contest was "strangely honest". The "strangely" is important, but no less so than the "honest".
17
As much as I admire Ms. Carlson and what she is trying to do, I think they should just retire the Miss America contest altogether. Or not televise it and let people go ahead and have their fun competing and watching it. First of all, it is still a contest. A contest where one woman "wins" at whatever we say is better than another, on national TV. It is not that it's so awful to strive for excellence - I am all for that - but we wouldn't have a similar men's contest (and no, Mr. America is a bodybuilding contest, and we have those including women now). It's the marketing it for the masses part. Anyway, I wonder how they will get contestants. I thought the Miss America pageant is the grown up version of the toddlers-in-tiaras type contests; didn't most of the contestants grow up doing beauty pageants? Are those likely to change, too?
7
Like it or not, life favors the beautiful, the tall, the physically fit. This is true for women, but it is true for me as well. The rituals may be different, but men are also judged and rewarded or punished based on superficial characteristics.
31
Your use of 'superficial' says as much about the value system as it does about the characteristics. I have a feeling most of us are naturally inclined to interpret 'superior' physical traits as indicators of genetic robustness. Granted, we go far over the top in terms of accentuating and amplifying 'good looks,' for reasons that are beyond me. Most men are easy. Most women are... I wouldn't know!
1
True, but no so openly and blatantly. And not on national TV, being paraded around semi-nude for all the world to judge.
These women are treated as specimens not human beings.
Beauty pageants need to go the way of foot binding. Remember, this "tradition" began three years before women could even vote in the US.
1
Life favors a lot of ugly obnoxious overpaid overrated men with too much money.
4
What a refreshingly perceptive and honest column, Ms. Weiss. I don't expect for people to judge one another totally apart from appearance. I'm not sure that for most of us, such is even possible. But when we are aware of our prejudices, it gives hope that we might at least be more open to those among us who are not movie-star handsome or beautiful.
10
The truth is that we are biologically predisposed to consider appearances as a matter of survival. How someone, or something, looks can warn animals including humans of danger. Beyond individual protection, appearances help all animals choose appropriate mates to propagate the species. So yes—like all creatures we judge others (at least initially) by their appearances, and take care to mind our own.
That is not an argument for swimsuit contests but it does help us understand that our obsession with how people look is hardwired and not going away.
47
The "obsession with how people look" may well be hardwired, but it says very little about what actual social and behavioral norms follow from it.
For example .. dressing "attractively" as a woman generally means drawing attention to secondary sexual characteristics. Dressing attractively as a man generally does not. This sort of thing seems unlikely to come from "hardwiring".
1
Many of the women currently considered beautiful are infertile due to being extremely underweight.
Suntans used to be the sign of the peasant class; aristocratic women wouldn't leave the house without veils and gloves. So much for the"biology" excuse for male rudeness.
Life isn't fair. People with looks that please the eye (and other senses) will always have advantages. For other species it is usually the male that suffers most in the quest for attracting mates. You can be sure the brightly colored male birds are the most visible to hawks and other predators that hunt them.
Humans are a bit more complex than other species as are there mating rituals, which spill over the line into other social interactions, including business.
The good news for those of us that don't have the looks to win beauty contests or leading roles in romantic comedies is that competence and charm tends to win out over physical beauty and lasts a lot longer than the kind of looks that sell in beauty contests.
16
To think that my whole family used to sit down in the living room and watch that thing when I was growing up. We watched it because it was there, the way the Academy Awards and the Emmys were there.
Big night. Lots to talk about. Plenty of suspense. A certain amount of wincing and squirming, but not for the right reasons. I didn't give a thought then to the underlying degradation of both the watched and the watching. Now that I've outgrown that insensitivity, it's one of my most mortifying memories.
It's not just the thought of the swimsuit competition, though that was the most explicit form of livestock judging. It's the very thought of evaluating people as physical objects, followed by the thought that women are liable to be evaluated in that way alone; and, finally, the thought that I got into the spirit of the thing in front of my mother.
The growing-up that followed took me through locker rooms, dorm rooms, and barracks where I'd hear girls and women spoken of in the most crudely dehumanizing terms (think Access Hollywood and beyond) as if nobody there had a sister or a mother. Many of the boys or men were above it, but it still hung in the common air.
After once reflecting on the objectification of women, it becomes distasteful to hear a man dilate on a woman's physical qualifications even in polite language. If she's a woman he supposedly loves, it becomes painful.
However nicely it's presented, the Miss America contest stirs the same distaste and pain.
69
Many are wondering how far the "movement" will go to stop the objectification of women? The next step might be demanding modest attire at beaches and swimming pools.
In many offices, the female clothing style does seem to be progressing back toward the more conservative tastes of perhaps even the 1920's.
But in some locations (including offices in some of the major companies), the daily revealing decolletage is still far more daring than what was shown those bikini photos of the Miss America pageant. Like many other guys, I find myself too often having to avert my eyes quickly to avoid being characterized as lecherous.
From conversations I have heard, I think most guys really do prefer a less prurient environment and welcome these current reforming trends.
20
Check you history; 1920s “flappers” were not modest.
Second, making women dress more modestly will not change male lechery. Or should we adopt Taliban morality?
5
I always thought beauty contests were an oddity at best. and not very interesting anyway. A pretty lady playing a flute or singing with a bit too much emotion or... the whole routine just seemed so contrived. Rewarding more women with the careers they qualify for (including performing) would be a big step towards treating women as equals. Of course everyone should strive to be healthy, eat less junk, exercise as often as possible, etc. That women look wonderful is a biological fact of life. I just think a contest on television focused mainly on looks, lining ladies up to compare them against one another, is just weird.
27
Appearance is one way we judge everyone, and if they appear to take care of their body and have a healthy body that is part of being a -well-developed person and a good model for others. We might not need swimsuits but if we exclude appearance and health, what will Miss America become a model of?
14
I loved Miss America contests as a girl and thought the women were beautiful. The women represented the dialects and tastes of the geography across the USA and it was always interesting. I also felt I could understand the women better in the bathing suit competition when they did not rely on lots of clothing for confidence and so my favorite contestant was not just the prettiest- but also the one who could laugh it all off as fun. Women's rights should not be a humorless endeavor because our strength can be found in our ability to own our beauty and enjoy it.
18
Simple idea; let individuals define and decide who they find attractive and let society reward those who strive regardless of a normalized ideal of 'beauty'.
13
As if...
1
For the last four years I’ve been learning how to draw, figure drawing and portraiture mainly, and I’ve been struck by just how amazing it is to objectify others, to study their faces and their bodies with regard only to shape, size, proportion, and measure, divorced from judgment and desire. Of course, one’s feelings for the subject inevitably find their way into one’s work, but only via the discipline of measure. Paradoxically, the more I push for accuracy, the greater my love for the figure and face, whether it be male or female, conventionally “beautiful” or not.
The problem with the beauty pageant, I sometimes think, is not that it objectifies women; it is that it doesn’t objectify women seriously enough—that is, to reach the level of the aesthetic. It is a crass, simplified, cliche objectification that puts women in a cheap cosmetic box of beauty and lends a thin veneer of art to a hackneyed lust. It is aesthetically lazy, unable to perceive the beautiful in the diversity of body types, in any woman not falling within a narrow range or type.
Miss America was a failure of the nation’s aesthetic education. Good riddance.
141
The existence of Miss America pageants - with or without a swimsuit competition - isn't the problem for me. To each her own. That's what feminism is (in part) about. It's not my thing - so I don't watch or participate. The problem for me is when Miss America pageants are a woman's only option for personal and professional advancement. Not every girl wants to be in beauty pageants any more than every girl wanting to learn STEM subjects. That is fine. The issue is ensuring that we women have equal opportunities across all fields with men. Equal opportunity to compete, be promoted, advanced and have positions of power - at equal pay. We are so far from there - and it has nothing to do with pageants and swimsuits.
41
Why not just do away with the pageant altogether? It has lasted far too long and it's ratings have plummeted over the last decade. The nation has moved on.
159
On the contrary just equalize the pageant creating a Mr. America program which now kinda exists in body building contests.
Definitely the best and most sensible comment. Get rid of the whole thing.
1
We knew that these things were no longer beauty pageants 18 years ago when “Miss Congeniality”, the Sandra Bullock vehicle, hit the big screen, and Candice Bergen, who played the pageant director, stridently proclaimed that they WEREN’T beauty pageants but “scholarship programs”. Then proceeded to direct the bathing suit contest.
There is no purpose to these things BUT judging women’s outer appearance, the “talent” contests notwithstanding.
This was a great op-ed by Bari, and I thank her for the entertainment. Obviously, she knows that these pageants always have been about low-grade male prurience. What I wonder is if she REALLY understands the stygian depths of that male prurience, and how women are on display and being judged for their outer appearance every day of their youth.
48
Do men understand how much they too are judged by women on the basis of looks? It's just that we use other criteria as well. The best way for a guy with average looks to appeal to women is to overachieve at comedy, wisdom and good grooming.
A smart, kind man with a self-deprecating sense of humor is always attractive.
87
Elizabeth, to some extent, sure, but it's my great good fortune that women don't judge us on looks nearly to the extent that they themselves are judged.
In our species, the male sexual response is primarily visual. Just compare the looks of gay guys to those of straight guys -- often, the straight guys go to seed, while the gay guys stay trim and pay attention to their grooming and appearance because they want to be attractive to other guys.
Richard,
Ah those stygian depths are not as murky as you would have them. When the kids were little and I was married to a learned professor with a penchant for "The Price is Right" and beauty pageants we would all hunker down with our popcorn and watch them with glee - betting on who would win, mocking the doe eyed as they attempted to convince us they valued world peace and human kindness above all else in this world.
Beauty pageants are like sugar, a cheap and shallow kick celebrating fleeting youth far too many of us cling to as if it were life itself.
I had my day and a half and loved every minute of it, but like the men I am attracted to, have other interests and qualities that make life snap and sparkle.
I mean Jeff Goldblum is my dream boat - has been my heart throb since the day I first saw him. I would love to sit across the table from him on a fancy date and have him smirk at me with that face of his. That's sexy. And will be sexy no matter how old he and I get.
As to what
8
This is an awesome article. Spot on and great satire. Thank you.
29
My personal belief why Meghan Markle was able to marry into English royalty was the grace and inner confidence she learned from attending all girls Catholic school, which allowed her to develop her inner voice and character. I think this is why so many US female CEOs are foreign educated. They haven't internalized sexism.
26
I love what Meghan Markle has done with her life, but she wouldn't be in the royal family without the good looks that allowed her entry into the world of acting, and then the world of celebrity.
97
Hindudr:
Right. Harry didn’t care at all that she was beautiful. There are millions of Catholic-educated women with grace and confidence at whom he wouldn’t have looked twice.
20
My point was that when you look confident successful women in US, whether in politics like Nikki Haley or Kamala Harris, or celebrity like Meghan, their upbringing reflects a cultural or family influence that is not mainstream American. Too many naturally beautiful American girls lose their inner and outer beauty by internalizing the sexism rampant in our society.
I am not sure everyone has to look like a model, but people who are overweight are unhealthy and clearly lack an adult measure of self control. On the other hand, many men and women enjoy looking good as it offers them an advantage in coupling with partners. Certainly focusing on appearance is a shallow pursuit but there is no rule that says a fit person can't also have a developed mind.
Most people are weak and childish. This makes them unattractive regardless of what their appearance may be.
28
people who are overweight are unhealthy and clearly lack an adult measure of self control.
Sure, overweight is unhealthy, but has self-control plummeted over the past few decades that obesity has skyrocketed?
There are other factors at play beyond individual willpower.
3
Weight is sometimes about self control, but often not. I was carrying many pounds of abdominal fluid and constantly looked pregnant due to inflammation from undiagnosed celiac disease. Many people are on medications that seriously affect their weight, or have health issues which cause puffiness and weight gain. Very insensitive and inaccurate remark.
8
If you should be married, I hope you have the good fortune of marrying someone like yourself.
7
As physical animals, we value appearance (a quality mostly imposed on women) and the availability of resources (one that's mostly imposed on men).
These things are really what human biology is about: selecting a quality mate and having the means to support it into adulthood and they infuse all aspects of our society: who we hire, who we lend money to, who we sentence to harsher penalties.
It isn't some patriarchal plan. It's a scheme that men and women partake in all the time without questioning it much because...well, if you question it, you sort of end up at some depressing conclusions about our place in the universe.
85
So true.
5
I would believe this if the proportion of single parents (mostly mothers) hadn't changed so drastically. The reality is that many women are eschewing men altogether. Women really can do what we want with our lives, without a man's "availability of resources".
None of the women in my family or among my friends does these things. They do not wear high heel shoes or paint their toes. They don't even wear makeup. If you do these things, perhaps you are giving in to social pressure, but this pressure you feel may be partially or fully in your own imagination. Stop wearing high heels and see if anyone cares. If you must wear them for work, put them on in the lobby.
I have the impression that many women do such things for themselves. They want to.
Perhaps some men demand such fashions, or prefer them. As for me, I find high heels and makeup hideous.
As for beauty contests, of course they are about physical beauty. Dancing contests are about grace, and sporting events are about physical strength, skill and coordination.
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Yes, that's my experience, too. Most women strive to look nice because they like how it feels to look nice. Like with most things, some go far beyond -- surgeries, self-abnegation, excess. And some don't question why they're doing certain things and if those things really matter.
I'm always clean and tidy, Mr. Rothwell. My clothing is sensible, clean and pressed. I wear simple post earrings and a Cross. Yet, were I to remove my socks, you'd fine carefully-maintained feet with glossy painted toenails. Why? Because, exactly as you suggest, I do it for myself because I like it!
5
Men do similar things, of course, to become more attractive, though not to the same extent necessarily. They invest in clothes, fitness, hair treatments, shaving, cologne, etc., and are judged much the same way that women are. The cultural balance of power in social and business relationships makes this a more critical task for women, though. We've all inherited the need to be socially and sexually attractive, and so far have not been able to transcend it as a species.
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I would say that men are generally judged just as extremely regarding their income and status, not their looks. For women, looks *are* their status, at least in men's eyes in the dating world.
I don't know who has it more difficult in terms of a sense of self, but women's stuff sure does move the economy. I have often said if we accepted our looks more, the U.S. economy would grind to a screaming halt.
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Let’s not forget about what men spend on retaining or re-growing hair on balding heads. It’s way too easy to generalize.
3
I guess you haven't seen the recent ads for men's Botox
1
I'm not quite sure why the picture of the bikini-clad contestants was necessary at the top of the op-ed (although I assume it will not be there in the print edition). (Or maybe I do understand).
I am not quite sure why this farce is necessary altogether, but far be it from to suggest an end to it. However, we can all wish for world peace in far better ways.
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I could be wrong Joshua but Bari Weiss probably used a photo of bikini clad pageant -- oops -- competition contestants in what's commonly called an "attention getter" Weiss had to emphasize the point that Miss America is a silly and sexist farce by prominently featuring a silly and sexist photo of these scantily dressed women supposedly vying for scholarship money.
"I'm not quite sure why the picture of the bikini-clad contestants was necessary at the top of the op-ed ..."
All the Times's OpEds have a photo or illustration. And the photo is clearly related to the subject of the OpEd. So what is your complaint?
Well, it is no longer a beauty pageant.Sorry, but it just isn’t.
5
I think that's the point...
2
"But far too often when I hear a man describe a woman as “super fit,” my brain substitutes some variation of Mr. Trump’s locker-room talk."
I'm not really sure you can blame the patriarchy for the fact that you think one thing when someone else says something completely different.
I mean, I get what you're saying...but the article of clothing that comes to mind here is more the tin foil hat than the bikini.
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Respect yourself, throw away the high heels
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I can't wear them anymore, because they hurt my feet. But I loved wearing them, because they made me taller and I felt more powerful. Nothing to do with looking pretty.
1
Also respect your feet and your back!
1
okay, sure, women obsess over their appearance and are objectified. But young men now seem nearly as obsessed with their reflections in the mirror as we do. Why else do you think they spend hours in the gym every day? Never mind the hassle of daily shaving....
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Actually full beards are in vogue now with young men; much as the goatee was in the 90s. So this generation is spared a lot of shaving. This, of course, will pass.
this will be one of the last contest. unless the owners panic because of lack of interest and revive the swimsuits.
12
Well ... why not open it up to male contestants? Maybe change the name to American Citizen Contest? I told my husband I would support him if he wanted to apply.
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Because female sexuality isn't as visual as male sexuality.
It's kind of sad to see people getting so upset about our instincts.
8
When you're asked to parade around like a piece of meat to win a prize then you can get back to us about we should feel about this.
you are forced to do this? where? who are these people forcing you to parade around as a piece of meat?
No one wants to see fat and unattractive women when the alternative are available. Everyone knows this. This is normal.
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Some fat women are attractive, some ugly women are not fat. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder’s cultural brainwashing.
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What about fat attractive women? Or does your gaze preclude that?
8
No one wants to see fat and unattractive men either. Especially when they take their shirts off in public.
29
Although it ultimately might be more truly said of women, rightly or wrongly we all are judged to some degree on our looks.
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In that case the USA fails because mostly American citizens are frumpy. I don't see a lot of Elizabeth Taylor beauty in everyday life so let's quit pretending we're movie stars and models when we are clearly not.
3
But we are not all judged in swimsuits.
4
"Might be more truly said of women"
That's a bold statement there, Richard!
Sarcasm off. Give me a break.
1
Thanks for calling out the many contradictions that women help to prop up, by participating in the game (unclear if we are forced to play it or if we are willing participants - the game being the ancient fight for status through male eyes, aka getting men to want to have sex with us). We like to act as though we're evolving but as you point out, we're simply getting more "politically correct" about it and finding elegant ways of deceiving ourselves about what we're doing.
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FC, there really is nothing wrong with it. It's an instinct, part of our sexual selection process. Men compete as well for female mates, just on different criteria (to a great extent).
When we try to fight our basic instincts, we typically lose, and it just becomes a sham -- the political correctness to which you refer.
But beyond that, these instincts play an important role in maintaining the fitness of the species.
15
Men look at women, particularly their hips and breasts, because it is hard-wired in our DNA. Those traits correlate with successful child bearing, which is what all species want. It lies deep in the reptilian brain.
Asking men of procreating age to stop "objectifying" women is like asking cats to stop chasing birds. My cats do it, through the window, even though they never go outside. Cats gotta be cattin'.
1
Josh, it's not about the instincts to preen, but the hypocrisy in DENYING those instincts or using orthorexia to claim we are doing those things "for our health!" when in fact we are doing them to get very skinny so we can attract a mate, in a culture where being skinny is the ultimate prize.
BTW: my favorite line here -- and I'll be quoting it -- is the woman who submits to the insane pain of having her inner thighs and genitalia stripped with hot wax, while she discusses the importance and MEANING of "The Handmaid's Tale".
My God, being a women sounds exhausting. All that work to look good and you spend your days fending off unwanted attention from men who don't know the primping wasn't intended for them. The cosmetic surgery to make certain attributes pop and the let down when they're the only attributes men give you credit for. The workouts required to get into swimsuit shape then the condemnation of those swimsuits, while the picture running with the article makes sure those swimsuits appear front and center. An unending balancing act between wanting to attract the opposite sex and wanting to be left alone. Forget world peace, the prize should go to the girl brave enough to wear a one piece.
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just what part of the body could u cover with a one piece???
5
I'm a woman, married to a man. He's probably "better looking" than I am, but he loves me for the whole of who I am.
It's not exhausting to be a woman unless a woman chooses that path. My Mom wasn't exhausted (except by young kids), neither was my mother-in-law, my grandmothers, my sister. The vast majority of women get out of the shower, do their hair, put on some clothes and go out and live.
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The irony is that those who care the most about their looks and spend hours doing makeup voluntarily are the ones who insist that it's necessary and thus complain about it. Yet there are so many who spend little time on such stuff and live fulfilling lives.
1
Swimsuit or otherwise, there will be men who will sexually-objectify women. As long as you parade women, even under the guise of an "intellectual competition", they will be judged on their outward appearances. When the time comes for public votes, since it's after all a competition, who will determine if a vote was cast for the contestant's appearance or her intellect?
11
"...there will be men who sexually.."
Really? Who watches these silly competitions? I suspect it's mostly women..
2
The largest proportion of people "judging" and "objectifying" women by appearance are women. Without a doubt. Without the slightest doubt. I've always been struck by how unattractive I found the women in beauty pageants. Not ugly, of course: just not really very attractive. That's easily explained: their appearance is calibrated for female judgement, not male.
2
I'll believe it's not a beauty pageant when the most important factor is a large written component, and contestants compete in the Presence and Poise (evening wear) category with their heads hidden beneath paper bags with eye-holes.
45
However, I suppose it's possible that even some willingness to increase the role which accomplishment plays in this cultural judgment could be considered to be progress. Paper bag masks are scary things, and the choice needn't be as stark as macabre dehumanized paper bag monsters or beauty queens. Perhaps there is some intermediate balance between appearance and achievement which would be betterfor our civilizational spiritual well-being than keeping things as they are.
The best thing to do would be to get rid of this outdated type of competition. Who watches this anyway? If they want to judge young women and present them with a scholarship, go to a High School or college and highlight the ones doing something meaningful for society. Or just call it what it is and judge pretty women based on looks. But start being honest. Just removing the bathing suit portion is stupid. Remove the whole darn thing.
And the only reason that women feel the need to preen themselves is that the marketers of beauty products and clothes tell us constantly that we are worthless if we don't buy their products and clothes. They motivate sales by shaming women.
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The following is intentionally provocative. Living in this consumer society is complicated and stressful. Nothing that has value is easy.
Yes, but....
You write, "And the only reason that women feel the need to preen themselves is that the marketers of beauty products and clothes tell us constantly that we are worthless if we don't buy their products and clothes. They motivate sales by shaming women."
"... the only reason..."? Take control. Stop being a patsy. Quit buying all the products, stop watching the pageants, don't buy beauty magazines. Be beautiful. Beautiful men don't care about this stuff.
And you men... quit drinking beer, dying your facial hair, and driving around in huge pickup trucks. This stuff is intra-sexual competition prodded on to sell stuff to you that you don't need. Beautiful women don't care.
My point being, when it comes to this superficial stuff women seem to be the most critical of other women, and men of other men. Don't play the game. The house always wins.
8
An interesting variation ona "beauty pagent" would allow the women to wear any clothes that they want.
The only restriction on the competition would be that the competitors would not be able to style their hair and wear makeup.
Then we could see who the real beauties are.
3
Their scholarship program is a hoax; Google John Oliver and watch his scathing report on how few scholarships this organization provides to young women; its a despicable joke.
4
I've never owned a bikini, even in my thin teenage years. Haven't owned any high heels for at least 20 years. When males start wearing those items, I'll reconsider. Ok, not really. Women, cultivate your mind, and talents. By the time you're fifty, you're invisible, anyway. Looks fade, but learning and actual accomplishments last much, much longer.
Just saying.
282
After I reached a certain age, it became obvious that men were no longer giving me the look-over. They turned away or looked down as they passed by. It hurt for a little bit, but becoming less of a sexual object and more of a human one can be empowering.
27
My gf is 50 and she gets cat calls on Fifth Ave & Home Depot...
4
"By the time you're fifty, you're invisible anyway." True for males as well. Sometimes I think the anger and resentment towards pageants such as Miss America is nothing more than railing against this very basic fact of (procreative) life. Why is celebrating youth, fitness and vitality such a bad thing? Isn't this a big part of the attraction of sport? Tell me that women don't like watching NBA players run and leap around the court in shorts...
5
Without a male counterpart, "Miss" America or "Miss" Anything smacks of sexism in any way it's presented. In a way, the bathing suit component made it so ridiculous that it could be easily ignored. Now the "competition" is cloaking itself in some kind of respectability? Hoping for the day it is shuttered entirely.
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The male counterpart would be Mr. America or Mr. Olympia which are ONLY "look at me pageants". Kind of interesting in itself I guess. Gave up on Miss America many, many years ago and I've only seen Mr. Olympia in "Pumping Iron". See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mr._America_(contest)
2
These aren’t conspiracies or social impositions. They’re about being part of the human race. I don’t know why suppressing any response to beauty, or sexuality, or the desire to be sexually appealing to the opposite sex, is currently considered virtuous. It seems to me something to celebrate - as it seemed to those bra-burning 60s feminists, too.
63
Would you celebrate foot-binding?
1
Are you comparing modern American beauty rituals (hair dying, exercise, care in diet, waxing, plastic surgery, etc.) to an ancient method of hobbling? Really?
1
One person's care in diet is another person's self deprivation.
Maybe get rid of the money grabbing pageant industry altogether. Particularly the ones that prey on the young. Honey Boo Boo comes to mind.
54
So what is the criteria for "assessment" of the "participants". Grade point average? Resume? Will a Rhodes scholar get more points than a Peace Corp volunteer? Will a medical student be chosen over a marketing major? What will this event look like? Women parading in loose fitting sweat suits with running shoes? I haven't seen a pageant since I was a child when my friend, her family and I sat glued to the television to watch and were shocked to learn that Miss Israel would be going into the military after the pageant. With this makeover, I may tune in.
20
What "are" the criteria...
1
Why would you be shocked an Israeli citizen would be going into the military? That's the law.
As a female in her 7th decade, I have the advantage of looking back and critiquing the women's movement of the sixties. One thing I have observed is a certain hypocrisy in lamenting how women are judged.
Having had my fair share of male and female friends, I was struck many times by how men could be much more generous in their assessments of women than women were in assessing men and other women. Really.
I could count the times I was hurt by a female friend's random comment about physical beauty. I remember a female friend saying how a short woman could not be "elegant." This directed at me, her 5'1'' friend, over whom she towered.
Or how a friend with thighs the size of my wrist would lament to me that her legs were getting "beefy." What was I supposed to conclude about my own rather generous thighs?
I also remember boyfriends, my own and others, consoling us about how we should stop fretting and realize we were truly beautiful. Really.
I wish, like this author, we would admit how much we collude in our misery. How cruel and judgmental we can be as females. It is much easier to engage in finger pointing and whining.
Maybe we can even admit that some but not all of us, both male and female, actually enjoy exhibiting ourselves. Is the decolletage on the female meteorologist a function of what the president of the station expects, or does the woman enjoy flaunting herself? Maybe sometimes the former and maybe sometimes the latter.
Let's just be honest!
272
Well said.
21
I'm right behind you. Women don't dress for men, they dress for other women, and I'd say very many enjoy exhibiting themselves, and why not, as long as they don't complain when men look. They are also brutal in their assessments of each other, regardless of age and supposedly maturity. In my experience that is the norm, not the exception. The idea that men judge the appearance of women but not the reverse is absurd.
What gets me is how both sexes have so willingly been duped by advertising into thinking that they won't be found attractive without meeting a very narrow and strict appearance criteria. It's driven us for as long as there's been marketing, the criteria getting ever crazier and making us even more judgmental of others. One would hope by now we were smarter inasmuch as we know we're being duped. The human race has been successfully mating for how many thousands of years, with or without the benefits of makeup, fashion or perfect bodies. The marketing wizards have us hating ourselves and judging everyone else, while laughing all the way to the bank.
When do we finally wake up and tell them to shove it?
31
The "objective" of the modern cultural Marxist stomping is "equality" for the collective -- Maoist green for all.
7
When I see women of all sizes in the “competition,” I will start believing that women aren’t judged not by how they look, but rather for who they are as a person. But, even if the contestants do not show their bodies in bikini, I believe that we have to see the exploitation of women in the absurdity of the beauty pageants.
41
A competition for "who they are as a person"? Think about that for a bit. What would qualify as criterion for "best"? Intelligence? Religiousness? Political savy? Cultural identity and awareness? Social adeptness? It all seems pretty subjective and absurd to me. Better to do away with the entire thing.
5
Many women spend large amounts of money and time on make-up, clothing, hair styling, and even plastic surgery in efforts to improve their appearance.
Presumably the purpose of this is to compete with other women in attracting favourable male attention.
Men do the same thing - albeit generally to a somewhat lesser extent - in seeking favourable female attention.
All animals seek instinctively to mate with members of the opposite gender. We humans are just hairless apes with dangerously large brains that will probably lead to our eventual extinction.
Accordingly it is difficult to believe that women in general do not wish to be "objectified."
47
One needs only to look to ask the question as to what the under-dressed are selling.
I'm not saying that men and women shouldn't try to look attractive; not saying that at all.
I'm merely suggesting that an admission of objective is well in order, and there should be few complaints if the attention is drawn.
This is an entirely different issue from the proper behavior of the ones who are attracted...But there are laws and customs that govern that encounter.
1
Not sure if you can pull off convincing drag, but if you can, try being a straight, white woman in America and then try for a month or two getting a professional job or landing a date, much less a mate, with a man who is not a professional owl feather arranger who speaks no English if your appearance does not comply with social norms, then talk to me about our "wish to be objectified." Women of color are put under even more pressure because they are supposed to affirm their racial affinity for their peers, and act white for white bosses, leading some of my black female friends to speak separate dialogues and dress differently depending on the audience - how any of us keeps it up is the wonder, but it's not a desire to be objectified.
6
Just as men have no business commenting on abortion, they (me included) have no business commenting on what women are subjected to in our culture.
4
Looks are more than skin deep. Good looks indicate good genetic stock, according to biologists. That's as important as it gets when you're young and seeking a mate. Judging women (and men) based on their looks is fundamental to human nature. It's fundamental to other animals as well. Decrying it as cultural misogyny is shallow and simplistic.
69
BarrowK--Happily, even people who are not beautiful, find mates, and have wonderful children, and fulfilling lives. This is cultural misogyny. You just don' really get the human evolution part of it.
30
That sounds like an argument for purity in bloodlines! Humans were given the gift of reasoning. There are more important things in choosing a mate than their genetic superiority in propagating the species.
15
There is nothing genetically superior about a woman with white skin and a BMI of 15 to one with brown skin and a BMI of 25. Genetics is just one factor, albeit an important one, in determining what "looks good."
Most sex is social, not reproductive. It's tied up on culture and status and power dynamics. That's why what's considered "good-looking" is also tied up in a lot more than just genetics.
16