One thing many of us who've lived around Mormons almost all agree on. We like Mormons. It's Mormonism that can be more than a little unsettling.
5
Obama 2008 “I am not in favor of gay marriage.” What a great guy. Current Mormons are bad people because of polygamy more than 125 years ago. Obama- great guy. And who said there is a liberal bias in the media.
4
“Islam is not even a religion; it is a social, political system that uses a deity to advance its agenda of global conquest.”
Same can be said of Evangelicalism.
8
Great that Mormons get it on religious tolerance. How are they doing on racism, since their doctrine was that people of color "carried the mark of Cain" until the 1970s? That's well within the memories of older adults.
4
So would Mr. Kintner also deport (To where, exactly?) or prohibit entry to Jews and other religions (or vegetarians and vegans) who do not eat pork?
3
Both Mormons and Catholics are teachable as compared to Evangelicals who are not. That is why liberal must make the effort to carry their message to these Christians who only vote Republican at the sixty percent level (instead of the hopeless eighty percent of Evangelicals).
Modern republicanism, in which Americans are forced to wallow, is fascistic in nature. We must communicate this to these redeemable Christians. We must ensure that they begin to see that the reason America incarcerates more people than human rights abusing China with four times our population is because of fascist republicanism which they have been supporting in their majority.
We must talk to the Christians - or else. So much is at stake - perhaps the whole world. Become an evangelical liberal. Carry the message of enlightenment. Don't hide your light under a basket.
2
"11th Article of Faith, which states, “We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where or what they may.”
I find this quote interesting, since the LDS church is pretty big on getting converts, works hard at it, and has historically been successful. Here in the US, it seems to me that Jews and Quakers and UUs are the ones who leave people alone to worship as they may.
2
Mormons, who baptize the dead of other religions into their own church by proxy, among other things, aren't a group I'd choose as an example of religious tolerance.
That being said, religion has no place in government. Period. Beliefs and facts are frequently incompatible.
7
I see many comments refer to "freedom of religion" - but I wish we were more like France where they try to attain "freedom from religion". It's great that Mormons are welcoming people - but their religion and many who practice conservative forms of Islam, Christianity, and Judaism - codifies and discriminates against LGBTQ people and women. I am tired of people using "freedom of religion" to allow gender segregation and the subjugation of women and LGBTQ folks. Equality needs to come first....and if your religion does not recognize that - I've got a problem with that.
15
The majority of politicians from Tennessee, from the House and Senate down to all of the locals, would benefit from reading this.
1
All religions are toxic at some level. It may be a tiny percentage that carries the virus of fundamentalism that spawns extremism but eventually it will try and often does overwhelm the host.
6
Because Ms. Uddin chooses to believe “President Trump’s travel ban, popularly known as the “Muslim ban”...” is a fact - when it obviously is not the case, since that ban applies to certain countries experiencing violent conflict. The fact that she would use something that is obviously untrue, makes the rest of her argument basically worthless.
11
After years of studying and thinking about what "religion" is or might be, I find that there is no such thing as "religion" at all. Rather, people, human beings, have opinions, beliefs, convictions, and views on many things. Calling an opinion "religion" doesn't help me know whether it is true or not. Many opinions or claims called "religious" are not even intelligible, so one cannot make any judgment about them at all. An intelligible opinion is one for which evidence can be looked for to back it up. It is subjective and thereby open to criticism, challenge, and question. Calling it "religion" does not remove it from being checked out for truth and discarded if it is found to be false or to have very little evidence to show it is true. If it is found to be true, calling it "religion" doesn't mean anything, either. It's just true.
3
Normally a Trump critic, I have to agree with "islamophobes" in the republican party. Finally, our lawmakers are understanding the real Islam, with it's declared agenda of converting or killing the rest of us, and terrorizing everyone according to their wishes by proclaiming Fatwas, with seemingly divine sanction. Muslims understand their game is up, which is why ISIS is in retreat, and loosing adherents and appeal. Which is why we have gone a year and a half without a major islam-inspired attack on America's soft targets.
11
Hey John, News flash - "There were 1.8 billion Muslims in the world as of 2017 – roughly 24% of the global population – according to a Pew Research Center estimate. But while Islam is currently the world's second-largest religion (after Christianity), it is the fastest-growing major religion" so hold ionto your hat John, Islam has no intention of going away and as oppsoed to Christianty, most Muslims live their religion 24 hours a day 365 days a year - its not an every other Sunday thing, oh excuse the adulterer - it is their life. Thats why in a religious inspired conflict - they will always win because they have actual faith.
5
It is precisely this type of sentiment that drives Islamophobia in the first place. And rightfully so.
Bigots who claim, like Rep. Bennett, that "Islam is not even a religion; it is a social, political system that uses a deity to advance its agenda of global conquest" are apparently unaware that this sentence describes every religion, even their own.
6
Thank goodness I can read about religion in the Times without judgments. Especially in the comment section. Lol
7
I was born in Western Ohio (where EVERYONE- no exceptions was German-Catholic. As a boy, during the national conversation on civil rights, there was only one statement that covered all categories of 'outsiders'- most particularly African-Americans. "I've got no problem with the good ones." (never mind that they had never encountered any of any 'sort')...I hadn't heard that characterization said out loud, much less from a national political figure, until DJT became a candidate.
The pardon of Joe Arpaio is a huge symbolic move. Equal justice and civil rights are for chumps.
7
It's great that Mormons don't hate Muslims but I'll never forget their sleazy covert financial spamming of prop 8 in California to fight gay marriage. Maybe we should declare GAY a religion, eh?
10
Try walking through a Muslim neighborhood while wearing a kippa -- any Muslim neighborhood, including in the U.S. (e.g. Dearborn). You'll learn about tolerance very quickly.
19
If you want to understand a big portion of the Mormon/Islamic connection you need to read "God is not great" by Christopher hitchins. He explains how much of the "BOM" was lifted directly from the Koran. The similarities are often more than Mormonism has to main stream Christianity including the murderous interaction of different sects. Male dominated theocracies and a blurring of church/state relations also come to mind. Freedom of religion is a corner stone of this country but freedom from religion is what we have to have to survive.
13
While admirable, surely there are parallels to be noted between some former Muslim members of the faith and the number of wives a man may have and the dictates of the similar law for Mormons, until US federal law changed them. Yes, modernity for Muslims signifies a single wive, as for Mormons. These laws operated in both faiths in areas where building populations in a hostile environment was necessary, the desert, where Mormons ended their flight from religious persecution in other states.
1
To be fair, Islam was founded in 622 CE. The dominant religion and culture in the Arabian Peninsula at that time was pagan and tribal, and polygamy was customary. Much like slavery is acknowledged repeatedly in the New Testament without condemnation or criticism, it and polygamy are acknowledged in the teachings of Islam because they widespread practices in the ancient world, and still customary then.
I sincerely doubt the Latter Day Saints feel any sense of kinship with Muslims about that. The practice of polygamy was highly controversial even within the LDS community during Joseph Smith's life. His wife was so hurt by it that, after his death, she insisted it had never even happened. That's a very different kettle of fish.
1
Very few religions encourage intolerance, let alone violence. The problem today, and in the past, is that political leaders use extremist elements of religious adherents to gain support or, in the worst cases, to foment violence against competing parties or nations. History is replete with examples of such behavior involving all religions or internal divisions thereof. One would think that we have attained a level of civilization and intelligence that denies leaders the opportunity to manipulate the populace. Clearly we have not.
1
Let’s be crystal clear on what the majority of Republicans and the majority of Trump supporters stand for: they believe it is politically correct to defend Islam/Muslims, that even if only a small minority of American Muslims are terrorists, all American Muslims and certainly all refugees/immigrants from Islamic countries are potential terrorists, that Obama was not American and that he may have been secretly Muslim and he definitely had more sympathy/affinity for Muslims than Americans - Michael Flynn, who was head of all Special Forces and who was appointed head of DIA by Obama, came to believe that Islam was a mortal enemy of America and that Obama had allowed ISIS to grow.
Let’s also be crystal clear on the facts: Trump and Republicans support Saudi Arabia, the country that produced 15 of 19 9/11 terrorists, Bin Laden, Wahhabism that is ideological foundation of Al Qaeda and ISIS, so Trump/Republicans actually support the worst form of Radical Islam. Zero Americans have ever been killed on US soil by refugees/immigrants from the travel ban countries, yet the terrorists have roots in US allies Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Pakistan, etc. Since 9/11, there have been 140 deaths caused by Muslims in America, 43 of those deaths by immigrants while there was 260,000 murders in that period, there were 267 Americans killed in mass shootings (not including by Muslim extremists) in just 2017 most by white Christian males. So support Saudi Arabia and hate/fear mongering against all Muslims.
6
When it comes to moral inspiration, it would not occur to me to look to the Mormons.
14
Nice try. There isn't a whole continent of Mormons warring or Mormon states financing and exporting extremist Church doctrine. Extremist (racist) Christians aren't pursuing nuclear weapons, hoping to set a bomb off in Detroit while yelling 'white power.'
But Islamic terror isn't really the main danger. Rather, it's the pernicious spread of Sharia ideology. How many Muslims are simpatico with Sharia Law? And, out of those, how many would take up activist roles in America if they immigrated? Like say, Linda Sarsour.
I'm not saying all -- or even a majority of -- Muslims support the fusion of Islamic and civil law. The vast (vast) majority reject such ideas. But it's not as many as we want to admit and the American Muslim community isn't doing enough to police this. It should be talked about, even if it offends our pluralistic sensibilities. And it doesn't make you racist or intolerant.
19
What can homophobic politicians learn from Mormons?
Perhaps this can be better framed as, "What can Mormons learn about how to treat members of the LGBTQ community from the manner in which they treat Muslims?" Or maybe, "What implications should their beliefs about religious tolerance have for their attitudes toward Donald Trump?" Paradoxically, Mormons tend to really dig the current occupant porn-star-chasing occupant of the White House, despite his religious bigotry and their stated aversion to pornography (https://www.sltrib.com/news/politics/2018/01/12/national-poll-61-percent....
I'm not sure where Uddin was going with this.
4
The attacks on Muslims by the GOP leadership is tribal, not religious. Muslims are not White Christian Americans, and therefore serve as the “evil other” that helps get the WCMs elected by Republicans. As was said in The Godfather “It’s business, it ain’t personal.”
The politics of hate and division needs groups to hate and be divided from regular Americans. Muslims and Mexicans fit that bill.
1
There should be a disclaimer on every religion: membership may cause you to hurt your fellow humans.
4
I agree that Muslims are just people, like any other and should not suffer discrimination, but I must admit Islamic ideas are anti-women, anti-democracy, anti-free speech, anti-Jew and on and on. Ask your nice Muslim neighbor if they believe non-heterosexuals should be made illegal. A recent poll in the U.K. quoted by Maajid Nawaz of Quilliam found that 52% of British Muslims believe non-heterosexual behavior should be criminalized.
Those Westerners who defend Islam are assuming that just because most Muslims are not terrorists, that makes Islam ok. Not true. As a set of ideas and beliefs, Islam is risible and deserves public criticism, just the way we criticize Christianity for its bad ideas.
Here in Canada, 12 local Muslims planned to assault our Parliament, shoot everyone and behead our Prime Minister. They were stopped by a mole working undercover for the authorities. When this mole’s identity was revealed to The Muslim community, they rejected him and accused him of betraying Islam. Even though he foiled a terrorist attack, he is seen as a bad Muslim and a traitor. He has a documentary on Netflix where describes his experience. It’s a worth a view.
Most Muslims here never become Muslim-Canadians, instead they choose to be Muslims living in Canada, with no desire to integrate.
Its clear that Muslim’s believe that anyone who criticizes Islam should be punished and sadly, it seems Liberals agree with them.
18
Every religion has some good in it! Now if Senator Hatch would try to put a check on this Trump administration that would be a really good thing, but he is a Trump acolyte like the rest of the GOP Congress.
3
Of course, they have a lot in common: ultra patriarchal religions that favour polygamy...
9
Ok so can the Jews of Israel learn a thing or two from the Mormons? Come on, Mitt Romney and Bibi Netanyahu go back a long way. Yet Bibi shows all characteristics of fundamentalism hard right stance than his LDS friend “lay bishop” Mitt Romney of Belmont. They couldn’t be more different.
1
Religion is the Achilles Heel of western civilization. Western civilization is our civilization and is qualitatively different from any other civilization now on the planet.
That is not to say that we have a great wonderful civilization, or that this is the most civilized civilization ever. The fact that the previous sentence can be written is one of the defining characteristics that makes this civilization what it is.
Islam as an organized thought/belief system does not agree that one should render anything to Caesar unless it's their Caesar. Islam is based on theocracy, which directly opposes one of the great lessons western civilization learned through centuries of bloodshed.
Christianity and Judaism were both like this once, a long time ago. Islam has made sacred many tribal customs and goals that are repugnant to Americans. Because these are sacred, they cannot be questioned or changed.
Our best hope is not to become like them, otherwise we'll have endless struggle between Tweedle-Dee and Tweedle-Dum.
9
A fallacy repeatedly expressed on this comments page takes this form.
1) Group X has good characteristic Y
2) You're wrong!! Group X has bad characteristic Z!!
These two sentences do not contradict each other.
This is not an argument for or against religion (all of which have examples of good and bad) it is a war between good and evil of epic proportions. Don’t get confused. There are many paths to one God. There is a God in the universe who wants the best for ALL of his children. There is also evil in the universe that would like to see us pull each other apart. There are literally thousands of different denominations and belief systems saying “my way or the highway” but God is not a god of confusion or contention. That’s man’s problem.
The Latter-day Saints 13th Article of Faith:
“We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.”
They may be on to something.
2
There's a significant number of people who considered themselves "good Christians" who were members of the KKK and who thought nothing of lynching innocent black people without evidence of a crime, and prior to that used the Christian bible as the basis for slavery. Right here in the good old US of A.
People need to settle down about this religion vs that religion, and start following the Constitution - that thing that allows people to be judged on their individual character.
3
“Islam is not even a religion; it is a social, political system that uses a deity to advance its agenda of global conquest.”
This is a deadly accurate description of the American Evangelicals.
Who quite recently acted out through the republican party a goal of their "social, political system using a deity to to advance its agenda of global conquest" to justify moving the US embassy to Jerusalem.
Oh, those glass houses...
6
The truth is that anyone who believes something written in a book is the word of God and should be followed literally is terrifying as it excuses them from science and common sense. Sadly there are many Christians and some Jews in power in this country who fit this description . So yes I fear fundamentalist Muslims but my guess is the people quoted in your article are just as frightening
3
It is interesting to note that the parts of France with the largest Protestation populations were also the parts of France most likely to hid Jews and hinder the round up in WWII. There is something about being a minority, to have been persecuted for religious reasons, that give one pause, makes one think.
3
"Uses a deity to advance its agenda of global conquest." I thought it was the Christians who fought the crusades and sent missionaries all over the globe to convert infidels. Did I get that wrong?
3
Will Zarathustra begin the great revival alongside Moroni served on gold plates? The good old time religions deserve equal billing against the bigotry backdrop.
Tolerance, acceptance and inclusivity the hallmark of a refined culture.
Then there’s the gutter brew drank by so many whom then seek to trample under the guise of American liberty.
Reality check please.
Wow. I did not expect the comments from NY Times readers to be so virulently Islamophobic. Especially in response to a piece that's not even about Muslims or Islam, but rather, a different group of people tolerating them.
According to Pew Research Center's 2017 Survey of U.S. Muslims, more than half believe abortion should be legal in "all or most cases," and more than half believe "homosexuality should be accepted by society." More than 80% are concerned about the rise of Islamic extremism.
The survey also asked whether “targeting and killing civilians can be justified in order to further a political, social or religious cause.” It turns out Muslims are more likely than other Americans to say such actions can NEVER be justified. Three-quarters of U.S. Muslims (76%) say this, compared with 59% of the general public.
This is a remarkably inoffensive op-ed piece that simply highlighted an interesting phenomenon. It's legitimately interesting that there's a sub-section of Republicans who vocally disagree with laws targeting Muslims. It's a shame so many left-leaning readers are lagging behind Utah on this one.
36
Nobody is more intolerant than Times readers.
3
Good points on US Muslims, and I'm not surprised - they have assimilated well. However, US Muslims and Syrian refugees (for example) are not necessarily the same. Different circumstances, different motivations, different migration rates (steady flow versus massive wave). It's OK to be concerned with allowing a large number of refugees into our country at one time.
5
Good to see some fundamental decency among a group that is traditionally conservative still exists.
22
Around the end of the 19th century, the head of the Morman Church had a revelation that God wanted them to quit practicing bigamy. This just happened to occur as the US gov't threatened to stop it. So we don't have total freedom of religion here. It would have been interesting, though, to have seen the outcome had the main church continued the practice, not just outliers, such as Warren Jeffs. Proably not good. (Read about the Mountain Meadows Massacre.) And there's the confusion of relatives illustrated by Big Love, where it never snows in Utah. And where Bill Paxton's flat tire magically fixed itself while he was kidnapped, and where just one police unit came to quell quell an uprising. But back to the main issue: Some gov't oversight of religion is desirable.
1
I am encouraged by the posts criticizing Islam regardless of the "Islamophobia" claims. The bottom line is that Islam is a relatively strict religion with a material percentage of fundamentalist adherents. We simply don't need more of that in the world.
Some liberals may champion the cause simply due to its minority / underdog status in the US, but that's a silly and myopic approach. What happens if Islam overtakes Christianity at some point? The same people who previously supported this religion will now find that they have traded rather than eliminated problems. And those problems could be even more severe than under the previous Christian majority.
11
We should never allow our opinion to be based on or reinforced by the fact that other people share it.
The truth is not a democratic thing, where what the majority votes for must be taken as reality.
ALL - without any exception - scientific studies about Islam show that during its 1,500 years of a existence, like any other monotheism there have been periods of very civilized "high culture", where the arts and sciences and economy are thriving at the highest possible level on earth, and other periods, where decay, economic poverty and ignorance (including when it comes to serious interpretations of ancient sacred texts) abound.
So no, your bottom line is merely a FEAR, and has nothing to do with proven reality.
And if there's ONE thing that we don't need more of in this world, it's opinions and policies based on irrational fears rather than on scientifically proven facts.
Finally, today there are 5% Muslims in the US. Any idea about how your fear of becoming a majority Muslim country could somehow materialize, in the near or far future ... ?
I did not say that Islam is not capable of high culture. And you haven't presented any more facts than I have.
I think Islam, as practiced in many ME countries, has the potential to be modernized. I'd simply like to see that happen before attempting to integrate a large number of people into a Western society. I think that's a perfectly reasonable request.
The European approach to immigration - particularly in places like Belgium - has not exactly been a smashing success.
Just about every religion has the good part, the bad part and the ugly part. Don’t judge others when your own doorstep is unclean. It’s hard to do but very rewarding.
2
Individual Republicans have always taken common sense positions on a political issue as soon as the problem somehow touched their own family (Cheney and his rejection of an anti-LGTBQ stance once it became clear that one of his daughters was a lesbian herself is only one example here ...).
The problem is that most of them only had ONE specific experience in life: that of being a white American man - with the GOP leadership adding wealth to that. So when it comes to voting and policies, what we concretely end up with is an Islam hating party and Trump - even in Utah.
That being said, of course Mormons are right here, and this is clearly a very interesting (and necessary) op-ed, so thank you, Asma Uddin, for that.
Needless to say though that you don't have to be a Mormon to understand the Constitution's freedom of liberty.
To me, Catholic philosopher Bruno Latour explained this clause best. From a scientific viewpoint, we cannot but all be agnostics, as science didn't prove that God/Allah/... exists, nor that he does not exist. So scientifically, we don't know (agnoscere, in Latin).
That implies that it's up to each individual to decide how to live: with or without the notion of a (or many) god(s).
No matter WHAT you decide to believe in though (= whether you decide to be a Mormon or atheist etc.), scientifically, that decision is a leap of faith. And you can't impose something like that on anyone. That's why freedom of religion is one of the most fundamental freedoms.
2
If only their unconventional history regarding marriage practices would have also given them more sympathy for others interested in unconventional marriage rights. What we really are seeing here is Mormons just being generally more educated than your average Christian. They know what Islam actually is, and they know Muslim values largely dovetail with their own.
2
Ms. Uddin gives Mormons way too much credit. Sure, as an organization they to do some good things but too much of it is simply lip-service and photo-op. Anyone not "white and delightsome" in Mormon land is second class and superficially used as a token to appear inclusive.
4
Adherence to Sharia law should be used as a litmus test for entry into the United States. Anyone who believes in strict adherence to this barbaric code, which allows men to basically do anything they want to women including murder, should be denied entry to our country. The accepted treatment under Sharia law directed toward women and members of the LGBTQ community are outside any reasonable moral and ethical codes. Please keep in mind that not all Muslims strictly follow Sharia law. They, like any other legal immigrant, should be openly welcomed.
6
We should not be surprised that one victim of persecution would be supportive of others who are persecuted, but our belief in the freedom to "worship" according to the dictates of our own conscience should not entail refraining from criticisms.
Islam and Mormonism are demonstrably bad ideas, by any standard I would call reasonable. And while there are indeed "Islamophobes", for example, who fear & assume the worst in those who are different, it is also the case that this charge will often be leveled in such a way as to essentially redefine the word to mean “A person who knows more about Islam than they’re supposed to”.
Does Asma T. Uddin, a religious liberty lawyer and scholar, have an opinion on "seer stones", or are her interests limited only to religious freedoms?
Important as this freedom is, of equal importance is the free exchange of ideas, including critiques of beliefs historically given undue deference.
"The difficulty lies not so much in developing new ideas as in escaping from old ones." - John Maynard Keynes
3
This is a great example explaining why the French style of republican laicite is back on track.
Indeed the article is right . A growing part of the population want less of Mormons and less of Islam. That does not mean end of freedom of religion, but means that religions are accepted if adapted to a very secular public sphere.
In short in current time more of 'vive Paris' and more of Je suis Charlie is the answer
7
"Last month, the Supreme Court heard oral arguments on President Trump’s travel ban, popularly known as the 'Muslim ban'”.
The fact it is popular to call it a Muslim ban doesn't stop the fact that it's not. The norm of reinventing language is disturbing. I am curious why the refusal to allow Israelis citizens (and no other nationality) into countries and the encouragement of an Israeli boycott is never referred to as a "Jewish ban" by Muslims.
8
Oh, I think it’s very telling when a politician “met with Muslim constituents only after they filled out questionnaires asking whether they beat their wives” — he is assuming that he will only be meeting with men. He has his own male-centered bigotry that goes unchallenged. Meanwhile in towns across America, there is an assumption that neutral = Christian, and, say, city council meetings open with Christian prayer; yet they call themselves oppressed.
2
To all those writing comments here about so-called objectionable practices of people of other beliefs, justifying various forms of discrimination, READ THE
U.S. CONSTITUTION.
28
What a surprise, two of the most strident religions sticking together. If anything, it is a good argument to be even more wary of both of them.
5
As a free thinking deist, I am implacably opposed to all the organised religions. I have studied the primary and secondary texts of organised religions for over half a century. Without exception, the organised religions are the mainspring of all that is worst and most craven about humanity.
To belong to an organised religion, rather than to connect directly with God through prayer, is to display the very same willingness to be manipulated, the same gullibility, as all those who join a political party or a political movement. Indeed, there is no difference between organised politics and organised religions.
A strong, brave and just man does not need the support of a political party or of an organised religion. A strong, brave and just woman does not need the support of a political party or of an organised religion.
19
As a free thinking Methodist I am strongly opposed to deists. This has come after 50 years of study of religion and politics. But I keep it to myself because I don’t want to be known as a bigot.
3
Amen to that!
2
This article gives a very rose-colored view of Mormon history. Back in the 1880s, one of the main tenants of mormonism was the obligation to have multiple wives -- Brigham Young is known to have had 55. Joseph Smith, founder of the church had 34 wives. He claimed that he was visited by an 'angel with a sword' who commanded him to marry other women - including teemaged girls and even other men's wives.
This was too much for Americans to stomach at that time and popular opinion was very much against the Mormons of that era. Most of the top leaders of the church were arrested for bigamy.
It's all well and good to call this 'persecution', but being a member of a particular religion doesn't give a free pass to break the law.
I doubt that even today Americans would be very tolerant of a religious group practicing these same principles.
30
Yes, the article didn't address Morminism's history. Mormons, like every other Christian faith, have a history of patriarchy. That doesn't exclude them from being right about affording equal opportunity to practice other faiths within their political realm. I live in Salt Lake City, and have a Mosque, an LDS church, and a Jewish Synagogue within walking distance from my home.
We all get along just fine...
40
There are a number of christians sects that endorse multiple marriages with children in the US. They practice it secretly, but there have been a number of stories about women trying to escape from such situations, usually unsuccessful. Mormons haven't been the only ones who have tried to practice polygamy.
Consider that some states in the US allow females as young as 14 to be married still. And back in that era, christians also married young often. It is not a joke that in many parts of the US back then, that a young woman of 16 who was unmarried, was considered an old maid. Mormans were not the only ones to marry young.
As far as polygamy goes, it is common in the old testament. It's found far more often than any condemnation of gays. And since they use the bible to condemn gays, one would think that polygamy being supported so strongly would be something they would endorse. It is after all in the same old testament they use so often against what they hate.
Polygamy is not something I would condemn Mormons on. It is their discriminatory practices against minorities that bother me. They share the same discriminatory practices the christians use to go after minorities.
And considering that christians have been the most intolerant towards others (inc. other sects of christianity), I would call it discrimination. Christians may hate each other, but they hate others outside their religion even more.
10
Every religion’s history has its dark periods. That fact does nothing to diminish acts of compassion, tolerance, and kindness from its members.
3
My husband back in the late 50's as a Catholic went to Utah State. His classmates and friends were all Mormons. It was at that time that he realized their openness to those of other religions or of no faith to speak of. Unlike many Protestants of that time, they showed respect for Catholicism, never once attempting to proselytize. If only my fellow Catholics and the evangelicals of today can follow these Mormons who understand better than many what is to live Christ's words of love and empathy with no judgement of the "other." Maybe that is why this denomination is called the Church of Latter Day Saints.
15
I am Muslim. Every encounter I've ever had with Mormons, particularly Mormon missionaries, has been positive and respectful. I cannot say the same about others, particularly Jehovah Witness missionaries.
42
My experience also, including during the 8 years I lived in Salt Lake City.
So, because a few Mormon politicians (one of whom, Orrin Hatch, had to say of the Trump administration: "the greatest presidency that we've seen, not only in generations, but maybe ever") are against the Muslim ban, are we to conclude that Mormons in general are against the Muslim ban, that the average Mormon isn't more--rather than less--likely to fully be on the Trump train?
Until you provide a poll of Mormons saying whether or not they approve of the ban, those of us who know Utah won't draw any such conclusions, especially when we consider this: Of all religious groups in America, Mormons give Trump the highest approval rating, more than 10 points above the next group in line.
http://news.gallup.com/poll/225380/trump-approval-highest-among-mormons-...
31
Indeed so. And despite this attempt to demonstrate Mormon tolerance, Why do the Mormons through their geneological network, attempt to baptize the deceased of other religions n order to "save" them?
5
Can’t we look somewhere else than to the Mormons for our collective moral compass? Let’s be critical of the ethical shortfalls of all religions, Muslims and Mormons alike, and not pretend like groups of people that won’t think outside the box are bastions of progressive ideas.
Keep freedom of religion, but look to the true believers of liberal freedoms. The Mormons fall short.
24
As a Non-Mormon living in Utah (I believe that Hillary Clinton may have received Utah's 5 electoral votes had only Non-Mormons voted in this state. Had everyone in American followed suit, we wouldn't be having this discussion - https://www.cnn.com/election/2016/results/exit-polls/utah/president), I couldn't agree more with Andre. Indeed, why not approach Non-Mormons in Utah (there are about 1.2 million of us) to see how tolerance is done right? Predominantly Non-Mormon Salt Lake City, for example, has many members of the LGBTQ community in elected city government positions. By doing so, one might gain some insight into the nature of tolerance in general.
1
Only perfection will do, right Andre? The Mormons fall short in many ways, as do Christians, athiests, etc. IN THIS INSTANCE, we see an example of true religious liberty.
If we can't find good examples to use as best practices, Andre, without requiring purity, progress will never happen. I'm willing to give credit where it's due. That doesn't mean I'm going to convert to Mormonism.
Your phrase 'true believers' is a tell.
1
Don’t be fooled, the Mormons support the Muslims because they want to convert and increase their ranks...... They, the Mormons, are patient; they know they’ll never convert the older generation, but with time, patience, fear, intimidation, and incredible social pressure, they know they’ll eventually add significant numbers of youth to their ranks.
Great pipe organs, however.....
16
Oh I love their choir, it's great. The Hallelujah Chorus by Mendal sung by them is 'heavenly'. Mendal outdid himself and they sing it to perfection.
I was at a funeral recently and they had the audience sing it. One of the most beautiful finishes for a funeral mass I have ever heard.
I have a collection of the Mormon tabernacle choir music because of the beauty of it.
But if they are being patient, it isn't helping. At least in the US. Worldwide they are gaining, but falling in the US. Secularism is most likely to blame in the US, the religions in the US are failing to address modern society that secularism points out. The only places that religions are still gaining support are those that are not well developed. Which is why Mormonism in Africa and other places is still gaining support. As those areas develop, then religious support will fall.
1
Handel composed the Hallelujah Chorus, not Mendal.
4
I am hoping that your mention of the composer of the Messiah is a typo although, seeing it twice makes it appear not so.
Handel wrote the Messiah, just to keep things straight here.
I’ll buy that when there’s a Broadway show called “The Book of Islam” featuring a Mohammed who’s dancing, singing and clowning around.
38
This is America, RS. We'll do it! And it'll be great. I actually love the way we can make fun of our own culture while we live it....
Perhaps Islamic politicians in places like Iran could also learn from the Mormons. Is that going to be the subject of the next opinion piece?
14
No it will not.
2
The world is the enormous sum of all the facts.
Religion is fiction.
Religious fictions motivate believers to harmful actions.
Humanity will be better off when more weight is given to the facts and less is given to belief in fictions.
Mormonism asserts that the angel Moroni gave the book of Mormon to Joseph Smith.
Islam asserts that the angel Gabriel dictated the Koran to Mohamed.
Science asserts that a mass is accelerated in direct proportion to the force applied to it.
Which of these assertions is fact based and which are fictions?
Let's retain useful factual knowledge and dispose of pernicious fictions.
33
Steve
You clearly miss the point of this article. To protect religious rights for one, protects religious rights for all. The point of the article is why, for an obscure reason, the senator and congressmen of Utah have protected the religious rights and immigration rights of muslim people. I am formerly Mormon and have left the faith for policy reasons. I can tell you that the citizenry of the State of Utah predominantly turned away from Trump during the 2016 election for reasons of prejudice and moral bankruptcy as a human being. This NYT article was about democratic principle, not religion. Please read it again.
13
Some of us have developed an ability to trust science and endorse the moral teachings of great religious leaders at the same time. The dialectic teaches us that a statement can be true and false. Postmodernism demonstrates the limitations of science and perhaps it's fatal critique - that science is performed by flawed humans speaking in language games relying on empirical observations that may or may not accurately reflect the objective world. If and when science does yield truth, by definition that truth would be known to God. I say that and don't even know if God exists. Uncertainty. Not certainty. Stop letting them divide religion and science. I'm not going to worship either one.
6
This discussion shows the beauty of our Constitution to keep "the Church" or religion, separate from the State. Believers or not, the same laws cover all. That is fact working with faith, the faith in the common good of humanity under the law.
3
Muslims in Christian countries are free to proselytize and build mosques. Christians in Muslim countries may not build churches and proselytize. Whereas Western media pounces on Christians guilty of wrongdoing but are apologetic for wrongdoings by Muslims. Jews in France must hide their identity in many places in fear of attacks by Muslim immigrants. Sexual attacks on European women by immigrants is downplayed.
Long ago wrong doings by Christians is no rationalization to justify wrongdoings by contemporary Muslims. we
That thousands of Muslim immigrants to the west have joined Jihad movements and fight against their host countries indicates current immigration policy is deeply flawed ,people should be concerned and be free to express those legitimate concerns..and rid themselves of administrative bureaucracies responsible.
30
Lane, I would urge you to think about the fact that 95% of Muslim immigrants are not extremists. They have left their countries exactly because they want democracy and economic fairness and opportunity for their families. They are good people and good neighbors. Where I am still confounded, is why they do not choose to stand up and tell the world the good things that they believe and and that they are grateful citizens in a new democratic nation. I'd like to hear more from Muslims about the positive side of their culture and beliefs.
12
95% not leaves 5% that are. If there are one million Muslims in America, 5% is 50,000 extremists living among us. It is estimated that there are about 3 million in the US and another 1 million in Canada. According to your number, that's 200,000 extremists in North America. The city I live in has a population of 7,400 and the adjoining city has a population of 9,400. We're outnumbered.
Do research on the attitudes of the "95%" you claim are not extremists. It fact, startlingly large numbers approve of extremist positions such as death to apostates and homosexuals and implementation of Sharia. Disturbingly large percentages are happy to have others do violence, whilst not necessarily doing it themselves. See all the Pew research to back this up.
The enemy of my enemy is my friend.
4
After we die we have no enemies. We are shown we are all friends in love with each other.
1
Mormons and Muslims have many things in common, all of them odious. Repression, subjugation, anything to retain the patriarchy. Here in the Bay Area I shudder to see women in burkas trailing comfortably dressed men. It makes me sick that we allow men to flaunt their dominance in public like that.
53
Yes, but there are Christian sects that demand almost the same. Michelle Bachmann bragged about how she obeyed her husband, that christian women were supposed to be subservient to their men.
That is what conservative christianity teaches and practices. It is why Rick Santorum was able to suggest that women should remain at home, barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen.
The conservative side of the 3 abrahamic religions teaches that women are to be servants of their men. I would suspect that the conservative side of other religions would say the same thing.
The dominance by men of women is strong across the world, it has been a male dominated world. It is only in the last century that women have been gaining power to fight back against that dominance.
The MeToo movement shows how women have been used by men. And how difficult the fight for equality has been for women.
Throughout my life, I have seen how any society, treats women. And the western societies are no better. Rape is rarely reported because of what women are put through. Abuse is often seen as the woman's fault. And that is western society.
When western women can gain equality and have the same rights as men. When they are believed, instead of being dismissed about abuse and rape. When women can really stand as any man can and be accepted for who they are, no name calling, no saying she is pushy when she does what any man would do. Then complain to me about some other place.
10
Kathy. Freedom of religion also allows consenting adults to behave in ways that leave the rest of us shaking our heads. The fact that at least some of the "next generation" reject this when exposed to modern secularism is at least some hope for the future.
6
What makes you think that women wears a certain attire because a men commends them to do it? The fact that muslim women in the west chose to wear a certain attire, while they could certainly chose not to do it, confirm a simple fact: women are muslims too.
9
Be very careful about giving Mormons credit for any type of religious tolerance. I grew up in UT and, as a non-Mormon, I can tell you from personal experience that they believe they are the only true church and are the only religion granted "authority" by god himself. All other religions and beliefs are an apostasy. There's a saying about UT: it's the only place in the world where Jews are treated like Gentiles.
(Does this sound familiar, all of you infidels?)
And, it should be perfectly obvious from their actions, that Mormons voted for Trump in the last election and always vote Republican. So, before everyone gets all warm and fuzzy about how nice the Mormons are or how tolerant they are, do a little research on your own.
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While ‘Islam’ may be a religion, ’Islamism’ is not. And it is ‘Islamism’ that American politicians are responding to when they talk about the Muslim ban. Islamism is a political ideology that is not compatible with 21st century western democratic values. Distinguishing between these two manifestations of Islam is no easy task for westerners...and getting it wrong comes with enormous risk to American citizens, whose protection is the primary job of our government.
28
Religion is very problematic and causes lots of tension. A person with unquestioning belief in a dogma can be inspired to do great evil if their deity tells them to. Or they may be inspired to to selflessly do great things. Regardless of that, religions are a fact of toaday's world. To the anti-religion folks I am a sympathizer and still I say "Get over it". One religion can be as good or evil as another religion or no religion. Most *people*, almost everyone, will help their fellow human if given a chance regardless of religion. In general labelling and pigeonholing people is a bad thing. People should be judged not by the labels we give them, but (What was that phrase again?) "the content of their character".
I live in Utah and chafe at times in the religious atmosphere here. But Mormon tradition gets a few things right, and this is one of them.
51
Pb, this is a well written response. I am a former Mormon. I am also gay. I no longer believe in religion, but continue to be a devout Christian. I will be ever grateful for the many values with which I was raised as a kid, in the Faith and in my home. That is not to say that values cannot be taught in any home. I do not support the Mormon institution any longer as a Faith. But I have found so many dearly supportive neighbors, friends and family who are Mormon. They are well ahead of their religious institution on social issues. In this, I take great hope. I also have been touched at the goodness of every Muslim friend that I know. They truly "welcome every stranger at [their] door", as they have been taught in their Faith and culture.
20
I am not anti-religion, but I do believe that people who do not practice any religion but I believe that freedom of religion must also guarantee the freedom FROM religion for those who wish it.
1
All organized religions should ridiculed, but they create bloodshed that’s why it’s so much hate, and don’t don’t call it islamophobia more like religion-phobia!
13
Islamophobia is pretty bad but it seems to have had no obvious effect on Muslim immigration to Europe. The question is whether the host country has the right to expect the immigrants to respect its culture and laws, including the rights of women, equality of religions, co-ed education and the expectation of active resistance to radicalism (including the funding from Gulf extremists).
26
It seems to me that most Americans of a minority religion are against the "Muslim Ban" and generally welcoming of immigrants. Why? Because we can all imagine what it would be like to be discriminated against (or have been discriminated against), and wish that awful feeling of helplessness on nobody else.
When the ban first went into effect, you saw groups of Jews welcoming Muslim travelers and immigrants into the United States...and its not as if there is no tension between Islam and Judaism elsewhere in the world.
So yes, I can fully understand why Mormons, who were once chased west by non-Mormon American Christians might find the "Muslim Ban" offensive.
In my mind, it is long past time that the majority Christians in this nation, particularly those who support Trump and his policies, remember that they were once a hated minority, and fed to lions for sport.
15
Dear Aussie: fabulous response! Fabulous analogies!
Everybody who is critical towards Islam is now labelled as beeing islamophobe. That doesn't prevent me from seeing that women don't have the same rights as men and that Western women often are disrespected (just ask female teachers or nurses in Germany). Similar problems exist towards homosexual and Jewish people. For the media Islamic people are mosty seen as victims of discrimination. That women, especially Western women, can be afraid of Islamic culture, is understandable.
59
Jody Hice, Christianity also “would not qualify for First Amendment protection since it’s a geopolitical system.”
8
The absence of ill-informed statements coming from politicians in the culturally Mormon state of Utah isn't an accident, but it isn't at all clear that the reason has anything to do with Mormons seeing themselves as having much in common with Muslims. Trump, or course, represents much that is anathema to Mormon culture.
There are obviously quite a few unrefined and uninformed politicians in the US, especially at the state level. This article makes that clear. But that also doesn't mean that Islam isn't a religion that includes an elaborate system of governance that applies to things other than personal behavior. It does enter into the political sphere in ways that other major world religions do not, in no small part because Mohammed was a military leader and governor, and not just a religious figure. Those who take issue with this should read Shadi Hamid's Islamic Exceptionalism, or the author's distillation of the topic in The Atlantic.
4
Considering the old testament, one can say the jews also entered the political realm. And the christians definitively have.
One only has to look at history to see christianity tied to the political realm. The church was always tied to the state. And that is true now, look at all the christian preachers who support the state.
11
One wonders whether Conservative Christians in all 50 states have identified their own religion as one where a number of leading and powerful Church figures as well as laymen and followers committed pogroms, in other words, mass murder, genocide and terror for 20 centuries against those of an entirely different religion: Jewish children, women and men. The Crusades highlight the savage acts of Christians who murdered Jews in the Rhineland of Europe from about 1100 forward -- all because Jewish people practiced a religion which refused to recognize Jesus Christ as savior.
Perhaps those anti-Islamic and anti-Morman Christians need to be confronted with the historical evidence of their own past savagery, the Christian-led murders of non-Christians as well as non-conformists since the inception of their Christian faith.
Before Conservative Christians allow themselves to fall into the vicious trap of hatred of those who are different, they first need to seriously examine their own religious history which the evidence from history proves is tragically replete with intolerance, hatred and violence towards any persons who dared to practice their own beliefs according to a different conscience than a Christian one.
13
"Joseph Smith...put it this way: '...I am just as ready to die in defending the rights of a Presbyterian, a Baptist or a good man of any denomination.'”
"Denomination" does not mean "religion." It's quite a stretch to imagine that Smith's statement was meant to apply to Muslims or Hindus or Zoroastrians.
5
Smith’s other comments, and those of Brigham Young and other Smith contemporaries, make it clear that they extended this view to all religions. This is not ambiguous.
6
Her is the rest Of Joseph Smith's statement. I referrers to all people, "...any denomination who may be unpopular and too weak to defend themselves. It is a love of liberty which inspires my soul — civil and religious liberty to the whole of the human race."
He called for religious liberty for the whole human Race.
Also,
The Nauvoo City Council (on which Joseph played a prominent role) said, "Be it ordained by the City Council of the City of Nauvoo, that the Catholics, Presbyterians, Methodists, Baptists, Latter-day Saints, Quakers, Episcopals, Universalists, Unitarians, Mohammedans [Muslims], and all other religious sects and denominations whatever, shall have free toleration, and equal privileges in this city ..."
2
My mother and father were immigrants from Ireland in the beginning of the 20th century. My father's family was fairly wealthy and lived in a predominately Irish neighborhood of the Bronx. My mom's family was poor and lived in a mixed Italian and Irish neighborhood in Brooklyn. My father had no non-Irish friends, but my mother had both Italian and Irish classmates and friends.
When my mother was 48, she got her high school diploma. Being the oldest of 10 children, she hadn't been able to go to high school when she was young - she had to go to work at the age of 13 to help support the family. A week after getting her diploma she got a full-time job with the NY Telephone company, and it was close to our home. Almost every day she brought new friends from her job --jews, Hispanics, blacks, non- Catholics - home for lunch - where they almost always met her best friend, an immigrant woman from Germany. One day a neighbor told my father what my mother was doing, and he told her to stop bringing those "people" to his house. She told him, 'Here in America it's my house too."
When she died in 1980, there were more than 700 people at the funeral mass. When my father died in 1990, there were five people, including my wife and our baby daughter. My mother taught me that love "trumps" hatred any day of the week. Trump doesn't understand that, and that's why he always lies and looks so angry. My mother would have told him to "lighten up and make
some friends."
45
Beautiful
3
I'm getting fairly frustrated replying to individual comments. It is rare to find such an overwhelming majority of angry comments, not one of which indicates any knowledge of American history or the history of religion in general or of Christianity in particular. And, no, atrocities committed by Christians do not neutralize Muslim violence, or the opposite. Violence is always bad but especially when committed in the name of the Divine.
These commenters expose their deep prejudice toward both Mormons and Muslims, they lash out in ignorance and self-righteousness, and I would suggest reading a couple of good history textbooks. This whole section of comments doesn't speak well for any of us.
20
"I would suggest reading a couple of good history textbooks." Would you care to suggest a couple?
May I in turn suggest that, for starters, you yourself read Sam Harris and Ayaan Hirsi Ali?
If a Muslim woman does not want to wear a burqa, or does not want to have to get her brother's permission to do anything, or does not want to submit herself to Sharia, or wants to leave the faith of Islam altogether, ought she be able to so without fear of angry (since you speak of angry posters here), and possibly lethal, retribution?
Since you critique the historical knowledge of not a few posters here, pray tell, what is the penalty for apostasy in Islam?
Since you don't want to hear opposing views here, do you think, e.g., Ayaan Hirsi Ali should be silent, whatever the forum, to accommodate you?
21
If that Muslim woman lives in the US, yes. Do you want to deny her those rights?
I don't think you actually read my comment prior to "responding"
2
"Mormons know too well what it means to be singled out for persecution, ...."
Nah, nice try though in trying to confuse the uninformed.
From 1848-1979, the Mormons permitted blacks to be members (that tithing is open for everyone!), but forbade blacks from holding any religious office within the Church. Indeed, the Prophet (no, not Muhammad, but Joe Smith) declared that "all sons of Adam" should first receive God's blessings before blacks would be allowed to get theirs. (In 1979, the Mormons had a "revelation" which then forbade discrimination against blacks).
Anyway, Mr. Uddin never did answer the factual statements of various elected representatives who correctly asserted that extremist interpretations of Shari'a, supported by tens of millions throughout the Muslim world (Pew research poll), is another manner of subjugating non-believers. It's really not worse than medieval Christianity, except that we are living a thousand years later.
Mr Uddin wishes to separate the very real political intertwining of Islam with the purely religious aspects of Islam. Good luck with that. Unfortunately, his co-religionsits are far more honest in their world view, i.e. Iran, Hamas, Al- Qaeda, ISIS, and most of Pakistan and Indonesia, etc.
But Mr. Uddin need not worry. Most Americans are good people, perfectly willing to champion the right of freedom of religion.
Maybe one day, there will be such religious tolerance across the Muslim world. Just don't see it today. Or anytime soon.
12
Talk about uninformed.. do you know anything about Mormon history of being driven from New York to Ohio, to Missouri and then finally out west to Utah -- due to the extermination order issued in the state of Missouri? Or how the leader was arrested and murdered by a mob before any trial and after the Governor of Illinois promised his protection? Oh and here's some actual history about the racism in the church you are attempting to describe. For anyone that might be interested.. https://byustudies.byu.edu/content/spencer-w-kimball-and-revelation-prie...
4
That's Ms. Uddin, as it states above the photo.
2
Hmm, you do know that Joseph ordained 2 blacks to the priesthood don't you?
You do know that Brigham also ordained two to the priesthood before he imposed the ban on black males receiving the priesthood, don't you?
Now, if Moses can disobey God by touching the rock with his staff twice to bring forth water (instead of speaking to the rock as he was commanded), why can't Brigham disobey the Lord ?
Anyone familiar with their scriptures knows that God works in mysterious ways... sometimes he allows a negative or an evil to bring about a good.
Utah was spared the rioting following the assassination of Martin Luther King (rioting in 90 cities across the USA) because of its low black population, which came about because of the LDS church ban on priesthood holders.
10 years after the worst violence ceases, the ban is lifted.
The Jews got a homeland because of the holocaust and a few years after WW2 ceases, the state of Israel comes into existence.
The left still has trouble accepting that capitalism lifted 2 billion people out of grinding poverty across Asia but I'm sure back in the 70's, socialists also imagined they knew better than Christ did when Christ supported capitalism with his applied lesson of the talents.
As for me, I know I don't have an inkling into the mind of God but I trust the prophet of the Lord's church to make pretty good decisions, that might seem or, even be, negative at one time while being beneficial at a latter era.
I was a born a Mormon and practiced myself for the first 30 years of my life. While it may appear Mormons support Muslims, let’s not confuse support for selfishness. Mormons believe that they will eventually have the chance to preach their version of the truth (which is the ONLY truth, in their opinion) to the world. They don’t want to support Muslims and immigrants, they want to convert them to a “better way of life.” Please know that the Mormon church considers women lesser than men, they rally constantly against gay marriage and what is best for LGBTQ communities; and up until 1976, yes just 42 years ago, they did not allow black males to hold the priesthood. The history of the Mormon church is extremely dark and disgusting. Whatever the church and its members support isn’t done out of loving kindness. It is done to advance the church’s agenda and typically masked as charity.
20
Hmm, Mormons don't kill gays but strangely the muslim nations sure do.
3
So do christian nations. In some christian nations it is the death penalty for being gay.
Really, which ones?
Just read up on the Mormon view on abortion - far more balanced and nuanced than the folks from Ohio...
Am sure - like for any other large group - a range and divergence and outliers...
Perhaps, NYT, you can get behind some "reasonable Republican" from Utah...
Doesn't have to carry through to the general election - I know whomever the Dem nominee is, he or she will do a much better job of spending my money than Mitt or I ever could...
Especially if the emergent candidate campaign-promised to mandate that everyone in the country be signed up for a NYT subscription...
PS
Good reporting - kudos...
1
When Mormons exercise tolerance towards others, this is a good thing. Unfortunately I was not on the receiving end of Mormon tolerance in a prior position in a STATE agency, when a newly appointed supervisor who was an ex-Bishop (but still a practicing Mormon) harassed me day in and day out for being an unmarried woman. He also objected to my own appointment in an administrative position, supervising numerous men. The horror of it all, for this man! After a year of verbal torment he removed me from my position. His reason (I kid you not—he put it in writing) was that I was “a policy enforcer.” I did contest his behavior through the legal system but as these things go, I cannot disclose the rest...
21
In the same vein, the LDS Church has also emphasized a commitment to welcoming refugees (while avoiding comment on any specific refugee policy). For example, there were a number of talks given by the Church leadership in April 2016 about the need for Mormons to reach out to refugees in their communities and to serve them.
At least partially because of this emphasis, a group of other Mormon acquaintances helped put my wife in contact with an refugee Iraqi family living in the states. She has been visiting them and helping to teach the wife in that family English for more than a year now.
4
Don't celebrate with your green jello just yet. The majority of Mormons voted for and continue to support Donald Trump.
9
In fact, Trump's margin of victory in Utah was substantially smaller than that for just about any other Republican presidential candidate in recent decades.
2
Yes. Twenty-two percent voted for Evan McMullin, but recent polls suggests that Trump has the approval of the majority of Mormons.
I moved to Utah recently. I was not sure what to expect.
I have noticed that people of the LGBT community are normalized here, and not in Salt Lake City, but in smaller towns.
One lady I met spoke openly of her wife, and it passed without comment or even raised eyebrows. I was surprised and pleased.
I came here for the skiing; willing to tolerate some social nonsense in the process.
To date I have not encountered any prejudice.
5
Interesting comparison this. The so called tolerant attitude by Utah Mormons did not prevent them from overwhelmingly voting a confirmed bigot to the White House. Their tolerance also seems to take a backstage when integrating other non Mormon diasporas in Utah. It also does not prevent them from rejecting dangerous elements like Rush Limbaugh, Glen Beck and others like them most of whom are still extremely popular in the state.
My family and I (Hindus) lived in Utah for a short 3 years. It seemed about as welcoming as a hot desert floor in mid summer. The Mormon church does not make a great attempt at recognizing that welcoming attitudes start at the grass roots level.
Message to author : Don't chop your nose in order to spite your face. Did you ever live in Utah?
22
We seriously need to get over 9/11. Islam has been a part of the United States since before the American revolution. The first country to recognize our country was Morocco. Thomas Jefferson had a Koran that he studied. We can't let the terrorism of the last two decades erase our heritage of religious freedom.
Terrorists use religion to justify terrible atrocities but it's just that, terrorism. When you vilify an entire religion for the bad acts of a select few, all you do is create enemies out of those who would be allies. Hate the terrorists not the religion.
124
How about that there are more “select few” than other places... willing to admit that ?
2
The problem is that it isn't about 9/11. It's about Orlando, Paris, Nice, San Bernadino, Chattanooga, Brussels, etc. These aren't events from almost 20 years ago. In fact, they were events that occurred mostly in the 12-24 months before the election.. Indeed, Mr. Trump's obviously visceral and poorly articulated suggestion of a "Muslim ban" came just days after the San Bernadino attack. As disturbing as you might find this, Trump's suggestion resonated on a visceral level with many Americans (and likely many Europeans, too) because of far more recent attacks by Islamist groups than 9/11.
26
We have religious freedom in so far as it doesn't conflict with certain Judeo/Christian tenants and ethics. Such as monogamy- or the supreme court has been all over the map about practices that use "Illegal drugs" - or ritual cannibalism (still practiced in some cultures throughout the world). When we say "religious freedom" what we mean is "religious freedom" as it fit in to a particular Western framework.
12
Why Islamophobic politicians are leaning not be Islamophobic from Mormons, will they be learning to be far more Homophobic? (Are we really supposed to forget all of the money and influence poured by Mormons into all those little things throughout the country like Prop 8?). Further, by nature the LDS is inherently undemocratic, even compared to other religions, LDS members are steadfastly loyal to thier church because it does not tolerate independent thought. Perhaps it is also best to recall that It has a history of supporting extreme rightwing causes. LDS Church leader Ezra Taft Benson encouraged all members to join the John Birch Society. Many of its members belong to the most extremist right-wing organization. Therefore, touting the benefits of Mormonism's view of Islam offers little comfort.
10
You know that Harry Reid is a Mormon too right? There are lots of Democratic Mormons. Yes, they are mostly conservatives but the church doesn't endorse any political party, in fact during every election year a policy statement is read from the pulpits to make that absolutely clear.
4
Robert B. Where and when did Ezra Taft Benson encourage all Church members to join the John Birch Society...?
srm: Do a search for Mormon Press, October 3, 2012 for an article about Benson. He was apparently an embarrassment to the Mormon Church because of his support of the John Birch Society. Benson's son was the leader of the Utah John Birch Society.
As I am reading this OpEd, there are only 58 comments, and I haven't read of them, but of those I have, I am surprised and disappointed that so many would make this positive story a catalyst for negative remarks.
6
To JR in Bronxville, I agree. Disappointing and very alarming.
2
It is not Islamophobic if you are one of those caught in a field of fire, or in the path of a speeding truck, or on the end of a knife blade in the name of Allah. They even yell "allah akbar".
So don't go telling me this is about religion, it is not, it is about culture, especially a culture that feels it is acceptable to behead the opposition, or subjugate women. Homosexuals are regularly killed in the countries of Islam.
Is this what we want to encourage ? I would say no.
51
and what leeway would you give those caught at the receiving end of a drone-delivered bomb.
study the history of the oppression of your ‘side’.
6
I'd say go check out the Crusades, the official slaughtering of non-Christians in the name of Jesus. I would also suggest considering the genocide on which this country was founded, slavery, the Holocaust, the camps for Japanese-Americans--none of those committed in the name of Christianity, but who the heck do we imagine the instigators were--Muslims? Jews? Buddhists? Atheists?
We exist on the stage of history.
9
oldteacher: Am I reading you correctly? You are citing evils committed centuries ago to justify evils being committed now.
An interesting connection between Islam and Mormons. The former is an intolerant and violent religion, and my mind is poisoned against the Mormons by Conan Doyle's stories.
6
which were based on historical events
2
If it hadn't been for the Islamic and Arab rulers, Christians in certain parts of Europe would have persecuted the Jews.
"During waves of persecution in Medieval Europe, many Jews found refuge in Muslim lands. For instance, Jews expelled from the Iberian Peninsula were invited to settle in various parts of the Ottoman Empire, where they would often form a prosperous model minority of merchants acting as intermediaries for their Muslim rulers."
"During the Middle Ages, Jewish people under Muslim rule experienced tolerance and integration. Some historians refer to this time period as the "Golden Age" for the Jews, as more opportunities became available to them. In the context of day-to-day life, Abdel Fattah Ashour, a professor of medieval history at Cairo University, states that Jewish people found solace under Islamic rule during the Middle Ages."
1
We tolerate religions that are not harmful to society.
However, if you want to marry a few teenage girls, or experiment with human sacrifice, you will quickly discover that noxious religions are not tolerated. I don't believe anyone has a problem with this.
11
We tolerate religions that are not harmful to society? Hmmm. I must have missed that chapter in my History of Religions class.
5
"Representative Bennett, the lawmaker who required Muslim constituents to answer questionnaires on whether they beat their wives, said in 2014, 'Islam is not even a religion; it is a social, political system that uses a deity to advance its agenda of global conquest.' "
The same can and should be said of Christianism. As usual, Oklahoma wins the Stupid Prize.
LDS members have a more recent history of being harassed and discriminated against than majority Christianists have. So they understand that every form of prejudice based on religion is a threat to all those who hold a religious belief.
11
Be careful what you wish for. What has been the result of unrestricted immigration of Muslims in other nations such as the UK, France, Germany and Sweden? If driving trucks into large groups of people in Nice, stabbing pedestrians on a bridge in London, running through Paris to shoot dead dozens of innocent people at multiple locations in a coordinated attack and driving a truck through a Christmas market killing a dozen people in Berlin have been just a sample of the results of such a policy in Europe then why would we assume that the results of such a policy would be different here?
Please note that I am not proposing banning all Muslim immigration but we would be foolish to not tread extremely carefully here. I support all the rights that I enjoy as an American citizen for all Muslim American citizens but Muslims in other parts of the world are not American citizens. No foreigner has an inalienable God given right to immigrate to the United States. Such is a coveted privilege. We should choose very carefully who is afforded that privilege. I close as I began. Be careful what you wish for.
47
This is quite a list of atrocious events. Have you read the NYTimes recent statistics on school shootings in this country?
7
not as bad as the unrestricted immigration of europeans to the Americas!!
7
Oldteacher, that has nothing to do with the issue of terrorists entering our country.
Mormons believe theirs is the one true religion. Their missionaries need to convert everyone so they can obtain "the fullness of the gospel". I fail to see any difference there. Mitt Romney is simply not a fundamentalist. Religious fundamentalism causes problems.
9
"Mormons believe theirs is the one true religion" Are you saying mainstream Christianity doesn't believe that? And hasn't killed in the name of that belief? I am astonished at the single vision, a-historical perspective of so many of these posts.
3
"I fail to see the difference there"
It's characteristic of all the Abrahamic religions
America....where the rest of the world comes to ABANDON the old ways, the old world. As one associate of mine, from India, non-christian, non-jewish, puts it.....when you travel across the water it really is like being reborn. he wasnt speaking about any religious conviction, he was being matter of fact and pragmatic about the whole immigration process. Todays moslem does not agree with that process. they cling to the old ways, Resist the new....jihad. in exactly the complex meaning of the word from the Koran.
Other immigrant groups have held onto their core religious beliefs....but only in a very American fashion......they SEPARATE from the political debate...........better to observe the Amish, the Mennonites....and as this article highlights, even the Mormons......for the Mormons were driven out of their Puritan beginings into the wilderness.....where they set about creating an isolated society, divorced from the Politics of the overall nation...................Moslems should take note.
9
when you are in a new land familiarity is a relief - as one feels at the sight of the golden arches in china!!
1
"We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God...and allow all men the same privilege." How generous.
But they neglect to specify that they alone get to define what is meant by your "Almighty God". First they have to check out his résumé.
Were I to say, for example, that Almighty Moloch or Dark Mother Kali requires human sacrifice, the response would be that "Moloch (Kali) is not a god, but a devil, and is therefore not covered by the 11th Article of Faith."
3
Not likely a Mormon would object other than at a personal level. The Article ends with “let them worship how, where, or what they may.” Pretty comprehensive statement of religious tolerance there.
2
Well, it isn't the Irish or Australians crashing planes into buildings or offing each other in record numbers, so don't approach it like these politicians picked Muslims out of a hat.
It's dishonest and anyone with a brain knows it to be true.
49
Some Irish were in full revolt and terrorist mode in the 1960s and 70s.
How quickly we forget.
5
Some people, many people object to the behavior of many/most (?) moslems. Women are usually considered chattel, of little value compared to even a young boy. Women must walk behind a man, women must be more or less covered. Marrying a girl as young as 10 may be problematic, but it's acceptable.
Joseph Smith the founder of the Mormons, had around 50 wives. Some of them were only to be wives in "the next world." Some of them were as young as 12. Some of them were married to other men. Not to be outdone, the second leader of the Mormons had about 55 wives. People objected to the Mormon's behavior more than their religion. When Mormons changed their behavior, they became more acceptable as neighbors.
Almost all the moslem people I've interacted with have been extremely nice. In almost every case, they consistently treat women as second class humans, which I find extremely offensive.
The US is far from a perfect country. We are entitled to keep moving in a positive direction, despite the temporary Trump aberration. In 1972, California did ratify the Equal Rights Amendment, and most of us would like to keep moving in that direction.
11
Are you sure they treat women as second class, or are they just trying to stay separate but showing it poorly?
1
When "separate" means herding women through back doors into effectively locked rooms in your religious center of worship, when "separate" means your deity applauds beating your multiple wives if you "fear disobedience," when "separate" means pressuring women to wear bags on their heads to display appropriate religious obedience, yeah, I think we're talking second class, Waleed.
1
you are mistaken. Joseph had many wives...but no 12 year olds
1
Those who fear sharia law the most are the first to proclaim America a “Christian nation.”
Those who claim Christians are persecuted in America are the first to want Muslims banned.
13
Maybe Christians and Jews should be banned for believing a bible that says those who work on Sunday shall be put to death or that stubborn and rebellious children be stoned to death.
12
Michael: The Old Testament - especially the Pentateuch - does sound a lot like the Koran. Just one small correction needed in your comment about the Bible "that says those who work on Sunday shall be put to death" etc. The OT does not say Sunday - it says the Sabbath, which was designated as the seventh day or Saturday. Jews still observe Saturday, as do Seventh-day Adventists.
2
How many people are acting on those scriptures? Can you name one in the past 100 years?
Good for Mormons. Now go and try to order a cake in Dearborn Michigan for a gay wedding.
9
Eh?
Go try and make a musical about the quran and mock islam in the same way that Southpark directors do in the Book of Mormon musical.
The theater would be blown to bits on the opening night.
13
Two sides of the same coin.
Mormons do whatever they see is best for them and the continued viability and expansion of their religion. The end. Any position they take on anything can be traced back to what is in the best interest of the Church. That's fine and we're all that way to a degree I suppose but please don't make this out to be some "greater good" altruistic proposition on their part. The fact is they *need* lax immigration polices to keep expanding.
22
That doesn’t even make sense. Most Mormons are White Americans (as far as I know) since immigrants don’t even know what a Mormon is! Mormons are just genuinely kind Christians, even if they have some peculiar marriage customs. They recognize that if one religion can be discriminated against, then their own will be soon to follow and more mainstream Christians exert themselves after being frenzied by Republican populists.
4
Before you get all warm and fuzzy about Mormons and how welcoming they are, just remember their policies against gays and lesbians. How they're ending their relationship with the Boy Scouts of America because of its inclusive policy for gays. I lived in Salt Lake City for over 21 years before I was finally able to escape the Zion Curtain. Don't fall for it.
87
Just like Obama and Clinton, Mormons against gay marriage. Why anybody thinks the government should be involved in marriage is beyond me. All of us should be against the government taxing people differently based upon marital status.
1
While I agree with your last sentence, marriage has always been a secular tradition. The 1st marriage recorded was based on property rights. Who would be entitled to get the property when a death occurred?
And that is where the state has a stake in what happens. Which is why, in spite of what religions say, marriage has always been a state matter. To establish the property rights of someone if they die.
That is why a state license is needed and a church is not needed.
The reason for the tax issue is that the state tries to encourage marriage, thus singles are penalized. I agree with the unfairness of that. People will get married in spite of tax laws.
How do religious minorities fair in Muslim majority countries? Not very well. The Christian minorities in the ME are losing ground. The Christian community in Iraq has dropped precipitously. The Christians in our ally Egypt are increasingly being intimidated, with horrific fatal attacks on the community such as fatal bombings of Churches during Christmas.
It is even worse for the Yazidis.
How about the Jews? There are hardly any Jews anymore in Muslim majority countries, but the ones in Europe are increasingly facing attack (Kosher market in Paris, Copenhagen synagogue, Toulouse Jewish school, Belguim Holocaust museum, the brutal murder of an elderly dignified Holocaust survivor in Paris, etc, all by jihadi assailants).
Americans have faced multiple jihadi attacks (1st World Trade Center attack in 1993, 9/11, Fort Hood, TX; Chatanooga, TN; Pulse nightclub, Orlando, FL; San Bernadino, CA; NY, NY bike path; Chelsea, NY, NY )
There have been many other jihadi attacks in other countries - Sydney Lindt cafe, Ottawa, Berlin, Nice, London, Brussels, Manchester, etc.
These news events are much more significant and disconcerting than the statements made by a few politicians mentioned in this piece.
58
Now multiply all these attacks by 100 and you get the problem those very Muslim nations face. The real victim is not the West, it’s normal Muslims getting dragged into conflicts they don’t even want to get into because the West created a monster in the 80s that it never took responsibility for (Islamist ideology to combat foreign invaders in Afghanistan).
10
The Christian community in Iraq has dropped precipitously. “”
Reason: NOT religion, but the US invasion.
12
Sorry Waleed but Islam has been fighting itself and everyone around it since its inception.
Blaming the USA for the civil war that has been waged in Islam for the last 1400 years is delusional.
Yeah, the Mormon Church may not like Trump's rhetoric against Muslims, but 47% of Utahns voted for Trump. And while Hatch may say he'll be the first one to stand up for the rights of Muslims, he also claimed he wanted health insurance for all children.
10
Good piece, though the litany of ignorant & hate-mongering quotes was depressing.
To the Republican politician who said that “Islam is not even a religion; it is a social, political system that uses a deity to advance its agenda of global conquest,” I would say that the GOP is not a political party; it's a financial / media syndicate that uses politics & fear-mongering to advance its agenda of enriching its leaders.
22
Yes, Republicans are definitely not a political party. The fact that their members have majorities in the House and Senate proves this. Geez. Who was ignorant again?
4
It’s called supporting the status quo.
That was meant to be a bit of a joke, although one with some truth to it considering they don’t even consider the legal process anymore in lawmaking. They started the norm of shutting down government to get what they wanted. That, in my book, makes them highly unsuited to be a political party and closer to special interest group. Honestly, Democrats want universal healthcare, Republican next lawmakers want less taxes (and therefore fewer services for Americans) while saving money for... themselves? Not to mention lower taxes and somehow lowering the deficit (something we all smashed Obama for, though he did his best).
4
Two things I admired about the Mormon cult (all religions are cults at various levels of organization): One - they welcome everyone (except LGBT folks like me) to join their cult, race, gender, past religion no bar. Two - They take very good care of their cult members and make sure they are well educated.
So I am not surprised at how they are approaching the Muslim ban. I was not surprised that they were able to successfully tackle the homelessness problem in Salt Lake City and reduced it by 91%. They have my grudging respect.
3
I believe that all people critical of the LDS Church are members of a cult and have my grudging respect. Aren’t I wonderful?
5
No you are not.
Balu: Have you followed up on the Salt Lake City homeless problem lately? It looks better around Pioneer Park, but the homeless are basically just dispersed to other areas. It is still a very big problem.
Fair enough, but if "Mormons know too well what it means to be singled out for persecution and to have one's faith maligned as a threat to America. But it should not require that experience to understand that religious freedom for some is really religious freedom for none." Why is it such a leap for them to understand a similar assault on the freedoms of homosexuals? Their empathy seems to end at their religious needs alone. I'm happy to see a religion not give up it's principals for political reasons but freedom of religion, only, is freedom for none.
54
While we still have a long way to go, Mormons are slowly getting better at this. Polling shows the majority of younger Mormons are for gay marriage. The numbers are shifting quickly for older Mormons (opposition down 15% in 4 years). The LDS church recently sponsored anti-discrimination laws in Utah as well as sponsored a huge concert that was raising funds for LGBTQ youth charities. There is a really impressive group of Mormons that walk in pride parades called “Mormons building bridges”. Go to most congregations and you will see there is a bunch of us that really hope to see changes made soon.
5
Many Mormons today, especially the youth, are more tolerant of gays and realize that nobody chooses their sexual orientation and being gay is not contagious. But the old guard seems entrenched in believing the opposite. When the LDS church moved to bar children of families with gay members from baptism until age 18 and then only if they leave their family and denounce their gay relatives, Mormon tolerance took a huge blow.
3
It is commendable that 'Mormons in Utah treat Muslims with respect.' It may be well, then that they do the same for Women, LGBTQ Individuals and minorities. Further, paying taxes on the earnings of their business interests is in order.
19
Good for the Mormons. They know from experience how literally dangerous attacks on religious liberty can be. It is easy to forget once you are "safe". I fail to understand how Israel can use weapons on unarmed peoples that they have effectively imprisoned. Israel of all political entities should exhibit religious tolerance.
5
And what Islamophobic politicians *and* Mormons can learn from secular humanists is that they are not entitled to a privileged place above those who follow no religion at all.
Christian and Muslim fundamentalists, and certainly Mormons, share a virulent hatred for LGBT people and seek through legislation to limit their legal rights to full citizenship. These religions have well documented histories of racism on many levels.
Religions have the 1st Amendment to protect them from persecution, but the rest of us have the same 1st Amendment to protect us from persecution by those same religions - it works both ways - and that is something that needs to be learned by religious fundamentalists and Mormons alike.
48
Shamrock: Mormons seek to use the law to limit the rights of LGBT people. But the LGBT community does not legislate laws to close down Mormon temples, only to protect themselves from aggressive hostility promoted by the Mormons. The LGBT community does not "demand respect" but only freedom from persecution. Your false equivalency fails.
"Christian and Muslim fundamentalists, and certainly Mormons, share a virulent hatred for LGBT people"
ehum,
Mormons don't kill gays.
You can be gay in Utah but go try and be gay in Saudi, Pakistan, Iran etc.
3
While they are not perfect by any means, and who is anyway, it’s good to see some recognition of the Mormon people, who some see as religious zealots, showing their compassion and humanity.
2
Tolerance always needs to work in all directions. It is comical to read of such praise of Moromons in the Times for the reason that I have read disgusting comments and articles about Mormons for years in this paper. I have never read the editorial board step up and denounce the denigration of Mormons in American culture. Funny, I only read good things about Mormons when it’s in support of Muslims.
6
Wait a minute this is not so black and white. I like the Mormons I respect them, they are hard working family oriented people who have generally added value to the US. But their history is not perfect, it is peppered with violence and racism and suspicion of the other. If their attitudes towards Muslims are more tolerant and inclusive it would be a new quality and one might wonder the ulterior motives. The LDS Church likes its position of power and exclusivity in Utah and they would be very reluctant to jeopardize that. And oh yes it is also a very proselytizing religion, just saying. So I welcome the Mormon's openness and tolerance to all religions and faiths, if it exists - but let's not look at it in a vacuum.
3
ST: And the Mormons aren't tolerant of the gay community
As an atheist, I absolutely believe in the freedom to practice any religion, or to practice no religion.
A little off the topic. But Mormons were forced to fled for the lives after the group was founded.
Then in Utah in the late 19th centuries, Mormons were forced to give up polygamy or flee to Mexico, where many still live. I don't particularly think polygamy is a good idea (I have a hard enough time keeping my relationship going with one wife). And I doubt that most Mormons today would ever want to return to polygamy, even if the practice were made legal again.
But I wonder if, since marriage is a state issue not mentioned in the U.S. Constitution, isn't the ban on the federal ban on polygamy clearly unconstitutional? Isn't the current ban on polygamy a clear violation of the First Amendment? The idea occurred to me because Islam also allows plural marriage if certain conditions are met.
7
Without approving his other comments, this from Bennett is dead on:
“Islam . . . is a social, political system that uses a deity to advance its agenda of global conquest.”
A phobia is an irrational fear. Fearing Islam is not irrational.
22
interesting, because I have plenty of Muslim friends and colleagues whose first concern are issues like: can I afford to buy a house in a good school district? What college will my kids get in to? Do I have enough time to buy milk after school before rushing my kids to soccer?
I'm not sure what Muslims you're hanging out with.
8
Demonizing the entire Muslim religion because of the actions of its zealot wing is synonymous with labeling the entire Christian religion evil because of the views and practices of the Westborough Baptist church. Every religion has an extremist faction that does not represent its moderate sector.
24
Steve,
the difference seems to be that most Christians and non-Christian Americans would loudly condemn the practices of the Westborouh Baptist Church, but most Muslims (American ones too) seem very silent regarding terrorism. Many non-Muslims Americans believe that all Muslims secretly support and sympathize with terrorists.
I'm Jewish, Plenty of Jews are very outspokenly critical of Israel. It seems like almost NO Muslims speak out against Terrorism and ISIS. It's like they are secretly happy about terrorism, unless it raises bias against them.
Americans don't think all Muslims are terrorists, but they do think most Muslims are terrorist sympathizers on some level.
I have a question: Are there any atheists in Arab countries? I'm a Jewish atheist. To me, it's incredible that every single person of Arabic descent believes in God/Allah. is atheism completely unknown to the Arab world? How can you trust an ethnic group with zero atheism? It feels like a big cult.
18
Every religion has an extremist faction that expresses the logical conclusion of an absolute belief in what that religion preaches.
2
The thing is that muslims do criticize what the extremists do, the western world doesn't listen to them. There have been all sorts of condemnations which people like you ignore.
Quite frankly, I think most people don't want to hear what most muslims say so they can condemn the entire religion.
22
I would like to ask the author and other Muslim fellow citizens if they ever pay any thought or attention to non-Muslims' rights in Islamic and Muslim majority countries.
In the past decades, the Muslim population almost worldwide has increased at a rate higher than the average growth rate. In Pakistan, it has more than doubled in the last 72 years of its existence, while during the same period population of Hindus, Sikhs and Christians have halved. Any guess, why? A large number of non-Muslims have been killed or forcibly converted, while others are afraid to bring out children in the surroundings that are inimical to their growth or their very existence.
I can see a resident in Pak running a risk to his life for voicing a better deal for non-Muslims, but what risk do the Muslims living in the West incur by raising their voices for a better deal for non-Muslims in the countries of their origin?
Personally, I like to think of myself as a fair-minded person who believes in the sanctity of all life, and equality before the law for everyone, but oft I get tired of Muslims whining and complaining all the time about real or imagined infractions of their rights when they demonstrate no regard for others' rights.
The world is not all about Islam or Muslims. Millions of Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists and Sikhs and others inhabit this planet. Their rights to life and liberty are no less sacred.
55
1st you assume that christianity allows freedom of religion which it doesn't. Muslims wishing to build mosques in the US have to fight for the right to build one, in spite of the 1st amendment.
6 out of 10 mosques requests are denied in the US. That is a lower total of rejection than is some muslim country, but the US brags about religious freedom. Something those countries don't.
Of the 19 most democratic countries in the world, the US doesn't make the list. We do not make the most religious free country in that list. Nor free speech. We are not the most tolerant country.
While most of the countries in the world are supposed to be democratic, the vast majority are not that free at all.
Democracy is relatively new in concept. It wasn't until the early 20th century that the US began practicing democracy. When women were given the right to vote. And not until the 60s when minorities gained the right to vote by destroying Jim Crow laws to keep them from voting. And to this day, states try to stop minorities from voting by laws
When the US really practices democracy, really allowing religious freedom, then they will have more standing to criticize others for their lack of democracy.
5
Skip, I am happy that 6 out of 10 mosques are denied the right to build here. I don’t want to be woken at dawn with their call to prayer. I don’t want to see women wearing burkas, faces covered in veils. This does not belong in my country.
How many of those most democratic, most tolerant, most free countries you refer to are Muslim majority?
Representative Bennett "required" his Muslim constituents to answer questionnaires?
Where did he obtain such power?
Why would anyone obey his directive?
4
All of the Mormons and Muslims I have known throughout my life have been incredibly decent people - kind, tolerant, honest and trustworthy. The Evangelical Christians could certainly learn lessons of humility from both faiths. Look at the beautiful Mormon children in the photo accompanying this piece with nothing but love for others in their hearts. That is an America towards which we all should strive.
50
You didn't grow up in UT as a non-mormon. They ain't so nice as you think.
13
Man, man and man. Notice you don't see the word Woman in any of the quotations, and not just the old ones. Before we go celebrating Mormons, have a very close look at their treatment of Women. Please. Maybe they have a close association with Islam in some not very good ways.
Seriously.
22
In all fairness, Mormonism and Islam share a great deal of similarities in their treatment of women. Theologically, women largely must rely on the innate grace of men to achieve heaven or Jannat ("pulling through the veil" for Mormons, absolute obedience to their husbands for Muslims); they are traditionally incapable of the priesthood function, and are generally excluded from any important ecclesiastical decisions, being shunted and corralled into "women's areas"; the emphasis of their theologies is on women's domestic and childrearing capabilities. Both religions have robust histories of polygamy as a male's right and occasional vigorous outbursts of the practice even in Western societies. Perhaps that's one of the sources of Mormon enthusiasm for Islam.
17
Nothing but hateful, oppressive, cruel misogyny designed to make women miserable. That must be why the church consistently attracts more women than men.
1
Utah is not typical. We're trying to find a way to ship all our coal (not-so-clean, as coal goes) to China since nobody wants it here. We're thinking about building a "port" in the middle of the Great Basin, just for that purpose. It's not working out, just yet. But at least we don't discriminate...not as much as the rest of you undercover racists, anyway. We do, it's just a little more thoughtful. Let's not say we're "Christian", that brand is getting pretty grubby. Jeshua bar Yusuf is not happy with that part, believe it.
2
I FIND IT SURPASSINGLY STRANGE That the Mormons, a religious group that was originally shunned for practicing polygamy, including the practice of requiring underage girls to be forced into marrying older men, is eager to protect the rights of Muslims. I think they would do well to get their own house in order, by acknowledging that women and men are entitled to equal rights under the law. Along with honoring the rights of LGBT people, whom they also shun and at times attack by the use of sadistic torture under the repugnant name of "conversion therapy." Are we to understand, then, that to the Mormons, torture in the name of abolishing homosexuality is no vice? Or is it the officially sanctioned expression of religious tenets that encourage and justify torture? I wonder where the Mormons stand on the Islamic practice of female circumcision? Do they believe, as do the Muslims, in cliterodectomies and other forms of genital mutilation? I find it strange that the Mormons, who from the beginning, practice alternative sexual lifestyles now condemn alternative lifestyles in others.
8
Why is then that Utah voted 47% Trump to 27% Clinton in 2016? Surely a large majority of Mormons voted for Trump. And back then Trumps campaign was denigrating Islam every chance he could but Utah voted for him anyway.
83
Good point - interesting! Let's see if someone has a (factual) answer to that...
2
What's noteworthy is that ONLY "47%" - actually, 45.5% - voted Trump. Compare with the 72% for Romney & Bush, 62% McCain. The difference? 21% voted Evan McMullen.
6
So Utah gave Trump about the same minority percentage of votes as the nation as a whole. But didn't give a majority to Clinton, as the nation as a whole did.
Not all of Trump voters are racists, religious bigot or isolationist America First'ers. Not all potential voters actually vote. And many voters wouldn't vote for Hillary Clinton for any office.
Trump lost the popular vote but won the Electoral College. The College was put into our Constitution by the 12th Ammendment, to prevent the president from picked only by states with large populations. Along with the notably antipopulation organization of the Senate (each state get 2, whether California or Nebraska), the Electoral College was designed to appeal to states with small populations.
Having 2 presidents, across 5 elections, from the same party picked by the Electoral College although losing the popular vote shows the Electoral College functioning as it was designed to. The votes from states with small populations can have more impact than votes from large population states.
Things are a little more complicated than this explanation. As you might recall, Utah wouldn't be part of the United States if the 19th-century treatment of Mormons were a little different. Mormons were religiously persecuted but they were at various time political separatists and/or conquerors. You might even say explicitly Zionist depending on who you ask. Think Israel but in the west.
To this day, LDS followers tend to vote in mass. To local political orders seeking cross-continental unification, this is not a very welcome outsider. They were chased west because of their approach to federalism. Religion was more of an excuse. Polygamy obviously didn't help but really it was mostly political hegemony and separatist inclinations.
You might also recall that Mormons are not exactly free from wrong doing . Look up the Mountain Meadows Massacre. Apparently, murder is okay when the murder serves Mormon interests. Naturally, everyone blamed the Indians. If we fast forward to modern times, you might also note the explicitly anti-feminist approach to gender in social organization. Every male becomes an elder but women are denied official roles in the church. Need I say more?
I'll agree Mormons are generally more tolerant than the typical "crimson-red" but only selectively. Both Mike Lee and Orrin Hatch are perfect examples. By the way, the Mormon majority has been in steady decline for years. Secular immigrants along with church deserters are hurting their numbers big time.
7
Andy: And don't forget some other well known Mormons: the Cliven Bundy family.
2
Eat pork? And Jews are next.
This is almost a word-for-word replay of what Ferd and Isabel did to the Conversaros iafter seizing Grenada and expelling all non-Catholics (if the Inquisition didn’t kill them first) from the entire peninsula, destroying that country’s Renaissance in 1492. The one that ended when Islam took over, ending, in @1000 the country’s Church-dictated Middle Ages.
I’m not an Islmophile or any lover of any group because of what they are, I judge people on who they are, something that needs to spread back into this society before we tear our Constitution and throw what’s left on the fire.
5
Your dates are incoherent. The ejection of Muslim overlords from Hispania was the collective action of native citizens against an abusive, colonizing, slaving alien culture over hundreds of years (711 CE to 1492 CE, approximately).
2
The Muslim religion and the Mormon religion are closely aligned. The two religions share many same and similar beliefs.
6
The Christian religion as well. Huge overlap in beliefs, history, & prophets.
1
Also, Muslim-majority countries should emulate Utah.
13
The simple message here is one that every major religion, including Islam and Christianity, preach:
Do unto others as you would have others do onto you.
How sad that so many Christians (and other religious groups including fanatics of any sect) reject this most simple, basic, and all-important lesson that all religions teach us. What hope is there for us as a humanity unless we willingly relearn and embrace this message--and not just for getting along with each other but also for getting along with the plant.
6
And yet these Mormon's who support the religious rights of Muslin's were the very same people who wanted to deny and take a way the Civil Rights of the LGBQT Community by funding and fighting the abolition of Marriage equality. Ironic that Utah then became the place which led to the historic Supreme Court decision recognizing marriage equality.
4
Muslims have long been residents/citizens of the USA, some probably have deeper roots than many of the politicians
quoted. Some Muslims were brought to what became the USA as slaves; probably the vast majority of Muslims in our early history reached the new world as slaves. Nevertheless, some came as "free individuals". Moreover, a number of the early leaders of our country had the Koran and other Muslim sacred works in their personal libraries.
The LDS church-to their credit-is using their own history of persecution to defend Muslim's rights, but so are other groups, most notably the major Jewish denominations. Japanese Americans are also well represented among those defending the legal and ethical rights of our fellow citizens of Islamic belief. And of course, so are are Christian americans
1
As a non-believer, and a strong opponent of religion and unscientific world views, I often point to the Mormons as the example to follow for those of us who want to practice and spread our anti-religious views.They are welcoming of immigrants and tolerant of other beliefs, both because they know from experience what it is like to be oppressed, but also because they have enough confidence in their beliefs that other viewpoints don’t frighten them.
I am also confident in my beliefs. I also want, like Mormons, to spread my religious views, specifically my disapproval of them, with kindness and tolerance and respect for the dignity (it not the dogma) of all.
3
All that God asks, be you Jew, Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Buddha, atheists, agnostics, Druid, whatever, are you doing your best in trying to make your world a better place for all.
16
But then God allowed us to choose all these religions and allowed us to fight amongst us?
Bill Kintner, proposed that Muslims be required to eat pork. Would he demand the same of a jew living in the US?
7
Well, it would only be a matter of paying it forward, wouldn’t it? After all, Mormons learned something about polygamy from Muslims, didn’t they? But you can understand the conviction held by some that an attack on one religion is an attack on all religions: once you start attacking one religion for tolerating female genital mutilation, what’s next? Treating females like “heifers”?
7
They learned about polygamy from the old Testament. And FGM is banned by Clerical Fatwa in even the most extreme reactionary Muslim countries, including Iran, Saudi Arabia, and Egypt. see Link below.
http://muslimbuddhist.blogspot.com/
6
Critique of religion is ok. Critique of inhumane and evil religious practices is a moral requirement. This doesn’t mean oppression or intolerance. I don’t believe in god and I don’t believe in the belief in god. I find it unethical and unscientific and wrong. But I welcome all Muslims and all people to live and work and practice their religion, excepting where it causes physical harm to others or animals.
I was debating with a young apostate Muslim girl, who was an immigrant to Canada about, ironically, immigration. She was very opposed to Islam and all Islam immigration, and finally told me he story of her life, including abuse by her family. She was saved by the calling the police, getting into a foster home, and moving on. I informed her that her story, rather than frighten me, was a powerful argument for increasing Muslim immigration because it can help save young women like her.
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Teed Rockwell:
So? It's practiced to some extent in every predominantly Muslim country, and it's practiced intensively in the largest and most devout. And it's justified by them by THEIR interpretations of Islam.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prevalence_of_female_genital_mutilation_by...
“I believe in an America where the separation of church and state is absolute - where no Catholic prelate would tell the President (should he be Catholic) how to act, and no Protestant minister would tell his parishioners for whom to vote - where no church or church school is granted any public funds or political preference - and where no man is denied public office merely because his religion differs from the President who might appoint him or the people who might elect him.
I believe in an America that is officially neither Catholic, Protestant nor Jewish - where no public official either requests or accepts instructions on public policy from the Pope, the National Council of Churches or any other ecclesiastical source - where no religious body seeks to impose its will directly or indirectly upon the general populace or the public acts of its officials - and where religious liberty is so indivisible that an act against one church is treated as an act against all."
John F. Kennedy, September 12 1960
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John F Kennedy would never have been allowed to hold political office in any Muslim dominated country, having expressed such views. More likely he would, by law, have been imprisoned or publicly beheaded. Such publicly expressed views would have been considered high treason in addition to punishable heresy. Doubt that? Visit some Muslim dominated countries, and you will see. I have.
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I'm not understanding the point you are trying to make.
Are you saying that we ought to codify in our laws discriminatory practices similar to those you have observed in some other countries?
Politics, indeed, makes strange bedfellows. If we're going to be saved from Trumpism in a democratic process, it's going to have to be fueled in large part by dissident and/or former Republicans persuading their constituents. And who among Democrats would have predicted Mormons would lead the way? Jeff Flake, Evan Mc Mullin, (hopefully) Mitt Romney. Urban progressives and rural conservatives need to recognize neither tribe has an exclusive claim to good conscience. Especially when the bedrock principles of the Republic are at stake.
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The United States was founded as a beacon of complete separation on church and state, however its participants use to this day religion as a wedge issue. Essentially many are declaring that their ''God'' is bigger than another.
Having said that, tolerance is to be respected and applauded, but we need to go one step further.
Once and for all, religious entities ( especially the ones that are only used for political attacks and means ) should have their tax exemption revoked. Prey on your own dime.
Then, truly all religions would be on the same equal footing.
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Don't expect the Republican Party to start learning anything except how to fine-tune the political dark arts of 'fear and loathing' and 'dividing and conquering'.
Republican electoral success is fundamentally predicated on white male mainstream-Christian supremacy and resentment and this political toxin has served them fabulously well for 50 years.
"If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you."
--- LBJ in 1960 commenting on the dismal state of American voting patterns
The Republican Party will be emulating Mormon, Jewish and atheist tolerance and grace only after their spiteful Christian hell freezes over.
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I guess that's why LBJ had no compunction in sending working class males to the meat grinder he set up in Vietnam.
But what did it matter to him? He kept a safe distance from all the chaos he created while safely holed up in his ranch - kind of like Mormons in Utah - or Bernie in Vermont or Hillary in Chappaqua.
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Gotta love the tolerance toward Mormons and Christians. Or should I say the lack of tolerance toward Mormons and Christians. Remember, tolerance only matters when you respect views you disagree with.
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JP, perfectly said. They throw lambs to the lions while they remain safe in their gated communities.
It was reassuring to read this. As an atheist, I stand with people of all faiths for their right to worship as they see fit as long as it does not impinge on the rights of others. However, freedom of conscious does not start or end at the temple/church/mosque door. Freedom of conscious goes beyond the right to chose and worship your god. It also includes the right to be free of imposed worship or devotion (as in coerced school prayer); to be required to submit to religious tests for public office, or secular work, or access to public accommodations; the freedom to chose who you marry be it of the same or different race, or sex, or religion; the right to choose to have an abortion if your beliefs allow for it; the right not to be judged or circumscribed by your race by law, custom or church doctrine; and finally the right to change what you believe or how you worship. While the Mormon Church may have a good track record on religious freedom, their record on some of the other issues is not so good.
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Just couldn’t resist slamming Mormons. I knew the praise of Mormons wouldn’t last.
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It is my experience that most atheists are the LEAST tolerant people I have ever met. An atheist simply cannot allow others to have some respect for whatever vaguely defined deity it is that all laws emenate. Atheists feel compelled to insist that their god....the NULL set....is the real god......if only they understood they have just defined G-d, the one god, exactly....by what he is not....and they are right back into the same trap as everyone else. NO....I will not worship the state....as required by every atheist state religion.
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To be fair, “slamming” or critiquing religions is not be same as oppression or hate. I understand how some can be confused by this. If you have “faith”, or believe things for no reason, it is fair to slam your beliefs. It is even right to. What is not fair is to attack people.
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