This passage stood out: “Still, sex is less important to me than love. This was true when I was a boy of 15, and it’s true now as a woman of 59. Then, as now, all I wanted was married sex, to desire, and to be desired”. Altho I was a virgin until very late teens, and my first encounter was not with a lover, love is what I have valued most, from 15 until now, an octogenarian . I’ve had
Married sex, and casual sex, and sex with single partners I didn’t love. And unromantic love with others, associsites, etc where sex didn’t get to occur, altho I felt desired often. The writers passage that “love and sex are mysteriously intertwined” has the greatest impact . Altho I’ve experienced glorious romance/love/sex in my life, it wasn’t nearly enough. This article enabled me to admit and declare so in writing. The downside of being a romantic.
4
There is so much to question in this opinion piece, but I'm delighted that the author asks the questions and puts some answers, based upon personal experience, out for review.
I'm a gay man who has always felt that we all have great and varying insights to share with each other about sex, love, marriage, relationships, family, parenthood community and commitment -- if only we'd stop telling each other what we should do/experience and start listening.
For example, I think that men and women experience the link (or lack of it) between sex and love quite differently. Let's keep the conversations going and be respectful.
11
First of all, I question that the author ever had a 'female orgasm'. Secondly, I know that different women experience their orgasms very different. Why do we have to generalize and stereotype everything?
32
There is nothing about sex that is common to 2 couples. It is futile to come up with perscentages of men or women having orgasms. Periodically some one comes up with sex practices, orgasms etc. No body needs training or poll numbers when it comes to sex. It’s the most natural of all things natural. Look at the animals. They know what to do. They don’t care how long it takes, what is the right position etc.
To me this column is more of a one man’s Opinion and that’s about it.
9
What a silly column reflecting what a silly age we live in. Statistics about numbers of orgasms and how long it takes people to achieve them? As if this gets us close to grasping the intense sexual passions of the greatest lovers?
Me, I'd like to know how researchers get these ridiculous numbers about orgasms. From volunteers lolling about having sex in laboratories? From people who fill in bubbles on those stupid online questionnaires? From random phone surveys (there's a thought: On the phone with a stranger asking, "How long do you say your orgasm lasts again, Sir?"
It never seems to cross the minds of pseudo-scientific social science types that people who answer these sorts of questions probably lie their little heads off.
P.S. The answer, folks, is not very complicated: Just as there's good bacon and bad bacon, everything depends on the quality of the lovers.
9
I think it important to point out that the premise of this piece, that the the author, a transexual woman, has "had sex" as both a man and a woman, is patently absurd. The surgically created, simulacrum "female" sex organ provided a transexual "woman" is as much a true vagina as a marital aid is a penis. It cannot possibly pleasure its owner with a true female orgasm or function as anything more than a secondary orifice for penetration. Given this, I would really question the validity of the author's opinion on her subject.
40
No matter how you see it, it's always all about controlling women, in mythology and even more so in religion.
And about the fear that men have regarding women. After all, not only are their orgasms more extraordinary, but they can have plenty of them repeatedly (scary, no?).
For a male, a woman is the person who gave him life and nurtured him and the one who may suck him out of his most essential energies. Women can never win.
10
What's really important is not who has the most pleasure, but who has the most need. As a man who did not have an orgasm, until the age of 22, unless you count a couple of wet dreams (due to shyness and not realizing that masturbation was even possible) I can assure everyone that if a male does not have sex, the sex drive does not go away and it is mind warping. The theories that the sex drive will just go away if you try to think pure thoughts and take cold showers must have been created by women. Sexual pleasure pales in importance to sexual release.
8
This person will never be physiologically wired in their nervous system or genitals to have the same sensations as biological female, ergo any opinion or perspective they may have on female sexual pleasure is flawed. As for me, as a biological female, I feel like I'm being co-opted and 'mansplained' once again by the transgender community
51
As in the challenge of the Gods depicted in the Painting,women are usually feigning objectivity ,they're too complicated to become quickly aroused .Then a woman will often not respond or pretend that sex is just a utility for them and in actuality it is. Or they portray a dream state based upon some ethereal crush they have and act out the state of orgasm as if winning an awards ceremony.As in the painting the male with his trusty sword calmly lusts for the last conquest to drive for the heart of the matter.Its such a majesty for the male ,so trivial in essence for the female.
2
Kudos...
NYT op-article empathizing with both sides...
(now if you all could only get the economist to do that)
Buy yourself a drink...
http://www.azquotes.com/quotes/topics/pick-yourself-up.html
On the internet, nobody knows if you're a soothsayer...
;=)
1
When it comes to ice cream, we don't question whether men or women enjoy it more than the other sex. Enjoyment is totally subjective and can't be compared between "enjoyers".
So why do we ask the, "who enjoys it more" question, when it comes to sex?
Pretty silly, huh?
7
Reality check: “Young women play at sex to get love. Young men play at love to get sex.” My memory is that Margaret Mead said it, but I couldn't fine corroboration. Whoever did, that age old dynamic, which used to be called the battle of the sexes, hasn’t changed that much, even though we liberals, who want everyone to be the same, try hard to believe it has. Tonight, millions of women all over America will fake orgasms to please their men. As Virginia Johnson, of Masters and Johnson fame, replied when her partner, asked her why women fake it, “So we can get on with things we’d rather do.”
11
So instead of asking an actual woman what sex is like (women make up more than 50% of the population, something this newspaper seems to forget on a regular basis) they ask a man who has had some serious surgery about what women experience during sex? How does he know? He doesn't. Try asking some actual women next time.
47
"Even the worst one was right on the money." Everyone's different. Good partners can have satisfying sex lives. just ask for what you need. if your partner doesn't want to accommodate you, you got some more work to do. I'm mostly concerned about all the lonely people out there that not only don't have people they care about to have sex with but more importantly don't have somebody to share life with. Start seeing lonely people and reach out to them.
3
"There are big differences in male and female orgasm, though: female orgasm is longer — over 20 seconds, on average, compared to three to 10 seconds for men. And men have more orgasms — reaching climax in 95 percent of their encounters, compared to 69 percent for women."
What about women having multiple orgasms? Like three or four in a row separated by minutes and sometimes just seconds? I envy that ability of women, since I'm a man.
7
I'm no conservative wingnut, but if we've reached a place where the country's flagship newspaper would print this article, we've taken a serious wrong turn somewhere.
This author is not a woman. The idea that this author would be an expert on what it's like to have sex as a woman is simply preposterous. The author may indeed be an expert on what it's like to have sex as a trans person with crude, artificially installed female-imitative anatomy -- but (amazing that this needs to be said!) that is a very different thing. It's about physiology, too: Tiresias became a functional woman, with a uterus and the whole nine yards, and bore multiple children in those seven years. What role does the risk or occurrence of impregnation play in this author's supposed experience with vaginal intercourse, hm?
Maybe 300 years of technological advances from now, a trans woman's sexual equipment and experience will be indistinguishable from those of a natural-born woman -- but as it stands, this author is a lot more like Achilles on Skyros than Tiresias on Kyllene.
40
Great article! As a transgender woman who also has had sex as both a man and a woman, I'd say that sex for a woman is about 100 times better, unless that sex comes from a man. In that case. it all depends on how selfish the man is.
The best sex I've ever had came from my wife, another transgender woman. She met me as a man so I can even say what sex with the same person as a man and a woman is like...and sex as a woman is way better. It's made me come to the conclusion that men need more sex because it's less fulfilling for them.
The worst sex I ever had was with a man. Men can be amazing or completely selfish. Most women and transgender people are compassionate and nice by default. I've had some great sex with compassionate nice guys and some horrible sex with guys who just were thinking about themselves.
OK, Hera blinded Tiresias because he peeked into the women's gymnasium, and told what he saw. NOT because she thought he was wrong.
Hey, Ms Boylan, do your thing, but (myself being a woman) I'm not gonna put any stock in your generalizations about the human female's sexual experience. Speak for the trans, leave the cis alone.
34
No disrespect to the author, but I don’t think she can speak for me and other women like me. Women like her, yes.
Good for her that she enjoys sex as a woman - so do I.
19
Talk about anti-climactic! You totally leave us hanging! Pa-lease, give us more. You say you can shed light on how sex is different for females vs. males, but then you decline to do so. What was the point of this? Spill it, please!
4
I would not pretend to speak about Ms. Boylan in particular, but I strongly suspect that transgender people in general are the WORST group to study regarding the comparative levels of pleasure in sex and love between the sexes. It is inherent in "transgenderhood" that the person is unhappy in his or her current sex and badly wants to live life in the opposite sex. The pre-trans persona is almost invariably unhappy with his or her sex and love life, and is mush happier post-trans. This simple fact will heavily skew the study data. Stick to non-trans study subjects.
29
I'll take sex over bacon any day of the week.
First husband (divorced) sex: Meh.
Second husband (deceased) sex: Stellar. and 22 years of it.
Current boyfriend sex: mindblowing. and we're baby boomers.
7
the great intangible....chemistry.....is by far the most important thing. great sex in my life has always been effortless because the chemistry was innate, you can't force it.
OH la la....la petite mort!!
1
I grew up with the NYT a long time ago.
I am sure beyond a doubt that if this had appeared in the NYT when my brothers and I were growing up in the greater NYC region, my liberal, progressive, highly educated, Jewish parents would have cancelled their subscription in an instant.
Times have changed as well as norms of journalism for a high brow newspaper, and at the risk of being excoriated as a "conservative", I probably would have done the same if I had children (or grandchildren) in the house reading this.
12
I'm an old woman and have been having sex for more than 50 years. What I can tell you is that for a woman, the quality of the experience has more to do with one's partner than with one's sex.
And love is the biggest variable of all.
11
My experience with womens orgasms is that they last forever while I have to stay completely still. Sometimes my mind wanders, on occasion I actually, for a few seconds anyway, get bored : - )
Also some women contract so tightly it's painful.
But I wouldn't have it any other way!
Mine by comparison is really nothing to write home about which is why I delay it as long as possible.
3
Transgender people often engage in attention-demanding behavior - such as writing & publishing this article about the author's own experience of sex as both a male & a female - that's bound to pique curiosity about precisely what kind of genitals any given trans person has - & what the whole trans label actually means these days.
But influential transgender people like Caitlyn Jenner & Laverne Cox also have decreed that non-trans people are not allowed to ask trans folks if they've had any "bottom surgery" & if so, what exactly it entailed. As Jenner sternly warned Diane Sawyer, those are questions only trans people can ask other trans people. It's intrusive for the rest of us to ask about such "private matters," & perverted for any of us to even wonder.
However, from what I've read, the overwhelming majority of trans people opt not to have any bottom surgery at all. This inevitably creates confusion & raises valid questions.
And then there are pieces like this. I'd prefer never to think about what Boylan does in bed or has "down there." But since she brought the topic up, it's disingenuous of her to be so coy. Especially since she also depicts herself as an authority on how women experience sex, this also smacks of false modesty.
As for Boylan's claim that she's had sex as both a man & a woman, it's just not true. Boylan's had sex as a man & as a man who lives as a woman.
31
Wrong question.
If you ask instead: how can I maximize my partner's pleasure, your reward will be the best sex you can possibly have.
7
Ah yes - sex and driving, the two activities in which everyone believes they're better than average.
6
:( Sad.
Why is yet another person who hasn’t received all the conditioning, both mentally and physically of women voicing some sort of expertise on the subject?
All for Trans but can we at least be honest about what constitutes the Entirety of what a woman’s sex life is? It does not begin with changing one’s sex.
23
I dont agree that because she's trans she doesn't have more insight then the average person. I'm trans too and I can definitely say I have some insight into the world of gender compared to what any person who hasn't transitioned has.
And I think sex with someone you love is the best kind of sex.
I also believe that sex as a woman is better as long as the partner cares equally about her experience as they do their own.
I believe its about hormones ultimately, but there is a lot going on. As long as the other partner values her experience, on average I believe that the womans experience is one of better pleasure. I think estrogen and the societal construct of femininity allows women who haven't been sexually assaulted to better connect to and enjoy sex.
However, a womans enjoyment of sex is conditional on so many things. If she was ever sexually assaulted that can make sex unenjoyable regardless. The partner had got to care about her experience, and there is got to be some.sort of emotional connection. In hook up culture I think both parties enjoy sex about equally, and they like it very little.
If everything is perfect then the womens sexually experience is better. As things become less perfect the males sexual experience comes closer to and eventually surpasses that of the female. You dont hear as many bad sex experiences coming out of the Twitter feed of men as you do women.
2
The question makes no sense. Some men enjoy sex more than some women. And the reverse. Why is common sense so lacking and stereotyping so pronounced in these matters? Less comparison, please, with its tendency to cause useless and unpleasant friction, so to speak.
2
If you're a man whose climax lasts only 10 seconds, you should know there are ways to prolong it measurably. The obliteration of self that occurs during climax is well worth prolonging.
1
This is all a matter of psychology. The sensualist who's unaware of themselves certainly enjoys sex more than the average person. But these same people have to deal with the consequences of being a selfish being on a constant tear of temperament. We can obviously be imprisoned by our desires. And sex is just one small aspect of being a lover. There is so much art that it can be remarkably profound: tone of voice, choice of words, knowing how to touch every part of someone's body, different looks, insolent humor or otherwise, and invariable spontaneity, a veritable romance in every sense of the word. Sex is boring. Love is quite something else.
4
I am shocked, saddened and disgusted by the denigration of the bacon-loving community in this column. We’re here, we’re not going away and we vote!
15
It could be that women enjoy sex more, but I know that men need it more, and therefore seem to get deeper gratification, for the same reason that food is more satisfying when you're starving than when you're not particularly hungry. For women, sex is a lovely flourish that can be added to life now and then when they're in the mood for it; for men it's a daily hunger that is never satisfied for long. That is why men will pay money for sex, and some will lie, misrepresent themselves, go through trials and tribulations and take enormous, life-destroying risks to get it. Women, not so much. When a man tells his buddies that he had a sexual encounter, he will get congratulations and high fives and never be asked if it was good, because of course it was. Remember "An Indecent Proposal" where a man pays $1 million for sex with his friend's wife? Giving up bacon is absolutely nothing compared to what many men will do in the pursuit of lust, and there are solid evolutionary reasons for that.
3
Every delightful experience is better when shared.
I enjoyed this article. Thank God that people like Jennifer are there to write our new mythology. I came across the myth while I was reading Montaigne's Essays and found it fascinating... We as humans have not really changed all that much in the last couple of thousand years. Let's just hope the next two thousand years are open and tolerant!!!
1
Canada's bill C-61 (passed in your home town) was not tolerant. Whatever one thinks of Jordan Peterson, it is not "open and tolerant" to threaten to imprison people who choose not to voice compelled speech.
5
Thank you for referring to John Barth. The world’s best shaggy-dog storyteller. He reminds us to stop taking ourselves too seriously. We can always analyze ourselves out of experiencing true pleasure.
Still experiencing at age 80!
8
Who likes it more when it's in progress may be irrelevant, but who wants it more has been extraordinarily relevant to the development of every culture on the planet. And the answer to that question, in general, should be patently obvious.
8
"Asking whether men or women enjoy sex more is pointless."
Obviously. In fact, I don't need a Greek prophet's assistance either.
7
In real life, it was more like Socrates and Xanthippe.
3
Brings to mind an old joke:
A rabbi and priest are on a train. They get to chatting, and after a while the priest asks "Tell me rabbi, have you never been tempted? Have you really never tried bacon?" The rabbi concedes he indeed has, if only once. Then he continues, "How about you Father, have you given in to temptation? Have you ever been with a woman?" Chagrined, the priest concedes that he too has succumbed, and they both fall silent for some time.
After a bit the rabbi looks up at the priest and with a wink comments "better than bacon, huh?"
56
I don't think the writer can honestly differentiate between the pleasure both sexes derive from an orgasm. Perhaps the sex organs have been changed, but it's well known that women's sex pleasure zone, in the brain, is in the frontal cortex while men's are in the primal part of the rear brain. Therefore, a woman's experience is more tied in with reasoning and emotion while a man's is less so. Perhaps a hermaphrodite's opinion may be more revealing.
6
What do you mean you don't want to go into details? That's why I am reading this thing!
37
I think we can all agree:
Bacon never disappoints.
19
It's more than disappointing to the pig, and to anyone who cares about the pig. Sex doesn't require taking the life of a sentient creature.
2
But then, nothing has to die for you to have sex. Oink.
1
It has been years since I have given thought to either sex or bacon. For the former, it remains a mystical and mysterious matter, laced with mirth, and as for bacon, Francis Bacon comes to mind here.
The British author, Robert Graves, writes of mythology where Zeus and Hera are battling it out and he usually ends in a thunderbolt rage because he gets caught. He is not planning to leave her for a younger model. What is still being debated in modern days is whether he had it in for his mother.
(If it has been published all through New York that your father had over 2000 affairs with women, you change your name of course).
Reading a short story by Gallant 'Under The Tunnel', where a sanguine young woman defies her father, leaves her studies in Grenoble and falls madly, passionately in love on the French Riviera with an older man who has been stalking her. He introduces her to his friends at breakfast, a 'Jack Sprat' who puts enough jam on his slice of toast to cause it to fold like a hammock, his enormous wife, happily enfolded in a blue cloud of rancid suet with a plate of bacon.
It is Hot.
6
Greek mythology, like Greek literature and philosophers, is indeed a wellspring of reflection ever to return to and come away from inspired by new questions.
This writer, however, in referencing Greek mythology, seems to have found a new path to the banal. The struggle in this opinion piece seems to be between the trivial and the trite.
12
Maybe it's not because we want to believe we have greater self control. Maybe we're convinced that the other gender is having more fun that us is because we want that to be true.
Sex, it seems to me, is one experience where we care about the other person's experience almost as much as we care about our own. Maybe it's just ego, but I don't think so.
42
Not my experience. The men in my life, unfortunately, have cared only about their own experience -- which is why there have been more than one, and why I finally gave up on men.
9
Way to be Justin...but I think only about 25% of men are like you. The other 75% care a lot about their experience and not a lot about anyone else.
10
The author says that she can shed light on experiences of sex of both men and women. Others (including me) have already commented on whether her experiences are representative of those of women. But a similar point holds about men. Most men do not feel that the type of body they have is the wrong one for them. When they have sex with women, they do not feel that they are having sex with someone who has the type of body that matches who they really are. The experience of sex had by someone who goes on to transition in the way Ms. Boylan has may or may not be similar, in all relevant respects, to those of men who have no desire to make such a transition.
71
Excellent comment. Exactly what I was thinking as I read the article. Thanks for expressing it so well.
15
I believe that gay people enjoy sex more than heterosexuals which I happen to be and in 60 years have had nothing except a heterosexual love and sex life. As author noted gay women orgasm more than "straight," women and the stories I've heard from gay men regarding their exploits before the outbreak of AIDS are unimaginable to the randiest young man. I do think that gay people tend to have hyper libidos. Good on them if this is truly the case, at 60 years of age I wouldn't mind a little boost in that area.
5
I don’t think a male to female trans person can honestly know what the female orgasm feels like. It’s simply not the same. A replica of a work of art is not the same as that original organic work of art...It can look authentic but it’s not the same.
I also think that Hera punishes Tiresias not because She didn’t agree with him but because he spoke a truth, often a secret truth, about female sexuality, that can be used to punish and exploit women, and she gave him the punishment or pleasure of experiencing it first hand. Honestly, it’s all in the interpretation. That loss of control believed to be inherent in a female bodies is what sexual pleasure is all about and it was the female followers of Dionysus that engaged in wild abandoned orgies of desire and lust in an intimate relationship with the god, not male.
It’s most often social norms that deprive and restrict women of the fullness of their inherent embodied sexual pleasure not biology.
Female bodies have always been interpreted, explained and manipulated by males...enough already.
I would be interested to know if such a piece would have been sanctioned by the NYTimes if 1) it was a female to male trans discussing male orgasm vs female orgasms or 2) if it was simply a female discussing the differences between male and female orgasms?
Why do men always feel they have the final authoritative voice over the female embodied experience and why is their more censorship of females discussing human sexuality in general?
66
"why is their more censorship of females"
I know we are all now expected (in some places legally required) to use the pronoun "they," but even Jennifer Boyle (an English Professor) might balk at using "their" for "there" (the latter is not even a pronoun).
3
The posters who are concerned with only physical gratifications, orgasms and the like, are missing much. We human beings are more than our bodily selves. We have vital, mental, intellectual and spiritual aspects as well.
Connecting with another person only on the physical level is just a mechanical process and eventually becomes boring, necessitating the introduction of kinky fantasies to keep the pleasure coming.
If two people can take love making to higher levels, especially with a spiritual practice, it can become a transcendent experience. But there must be total sharing, in a committed, trusting relationship for that to happen.
We often hear people denigrate the missionary position in love making, but that is the one way to experience the kind of intimate and loving oneness, that turns ordinary sex into something much greater.
8
What matters more is how invested your partner is in giving you pleasure, and how open you are to receive pleasure. Who enjoys sex the most may depend, on the skills and intent of the partner, not necessarily some innate capacity that we will never be able to prove one way or another. Focus on what makes your partner feel good, and give that to them. Open communication is essential!
51
Sadly, this article offers no insight into a rather meaningless question, and as a bonus, offers no insight into one of the most experimental pieces of American literature from the 20th century
7
Rather than make generalizations about gender, I submit that sex is best when the individuals involved are as committed to the pleasure of their partner as their own .
24
Since the vast majority of prostitutes, on every continent and throughout history, have been females having sex with men for money, I think it's obvious who enjoys/needs sex more.
29
Poppycock.
Men enjoy sex without responsible.
A woman, either when using contraception, ALWAYS confronts the possibility of a lifetime of responsibility, often without the man's support.
And a man's woman isn't always able to have sex (e.g., Trump went to Stormy when Melania was post-partum).
If men do enojy sex more, it's because we can empty ourselves into a woman with few repercussions.
But women who are not prostitutes actually enjoy sex more when the sex has meaning.
12
Your reasoning is faulty. The number of times one has sex has nothing to do with the degree of pleasure experienced or not experienced.
In patriarchal societies - (the bane of most human societies since time began) - a woman is held to be property. As such she may be used or abused as her lord and master, the male stud, sees fit. Daddy, her first owner, marches her down the aisle and "gives her away" to her new owner, the unblushing groom at wedding ceremonies.
Also, in patriarchal societies most lucrative professions are denied to women as well ownership of property. The sensible woman discovers she may be sitting on a fortune and who can blame her for cashing in on it?
Prostitution is often the only "profession" open to her unless she wants a life of wifely drudgery bearing and raising a bunch of brats in a hovel of filth, enduring a life of unending toil while attempting to keep her husband happy and contented at the same time.
8
If you completely ignore the power dynamics, perhaps.
4
Considering all the trouble sex can get you in, i'm leaning towards bacon, Canadian bacon.
23
Bacon is undoubtedly America's favorite food, and if it weren't for a desire to remain healthy until death, I'd eat bacon every day.
But for me, at least, the pleasure of sex at its best is far above that of food, or anything else. Comparing sex to eating is like comparing a rocket ride around the solar system (in a fanciful rocket that could go from here to Pluto in no more than a week, circling all the most interesting orbs along the way) to driving a Toyota Corolla on Skyline between Rt. 66 and Charlottesville. (For those who don't know either, Skyline is gorgeous, but a Corolla is a fairly dull car to drive).
As for which gender gets more pleasure, it seems to me that there's just so much pleasure to be had that in a good relationship, that shouldn't be an issue.
16
Listen to "The Cinema Show" by Genesis.
1
Can we all at least agree that sex is not enjoyed by our parents?
75
Not that we want to admit or acknowledge, anyway. And, they only had sex once for each kid and that was IT.
21
Nope. Guess how old I am ?
2
This was an interesting article to read. For me, when I think of sex, I think of it like a dinner with an awful appetizer and dessert.
Sex itself is really quite awesome. It's all of the stuff before and all of the consequences after that make it awful.
26
And now we know.
With all due respect, the author has experienced sex as a man and as a person who has transitioned to a female identity. The latter experience is neither physically nor psychologically the same as that of a woman. It is not inferior, but it is different. There is a long history of women's experiences being explained by others. To suggest that the author's experience mirrors that of most women is at best, wishful thinking, and at worst, another example of the aforementioned usurping of women's voices.
198
Right on.
34
I couldn't agree more with this. If women's experience is one thing and men's is another, this article is about a third
64
Reply to Artemis, I absolutely agree with you! While I enjoyed this article in terms of what the author said about love and the recounting of the Greek myth, I don’t think this person can speak “for women”. I mean I don’t know that much about gender transitions but when I have an orgasm it feels like my uterus is moving or something. I’m not sure what a trans woman feels, but it’s probably different.
And also . . . Women’s experiences of our sexuality are coloured by our adolescence and the experience of growing into womanhood so young — it was for me an experience of profound vulnerability. There’s so much fear (of rape, of pregnancy, of period pain or even period leaks). A trans woman doesn’t ever experience most of that, and none of that at twelve.
Nevertheless I was thrilled with my development and I don’t want to imply otherwise. Womanhood is wonderful. But womanhood for me was not about “choice”; Finney Bolan choose to be a woman — and that’s very different.
68
Dear Jennifer Boylan, thank you for a wonderfully written essay!
One question- when you gave the either/or choice of sex or bacon, did you have the husband in Apollinaire’s play, Les Mamelles de Tiresias, in mind? The husband is the one who demands his “bacon” while the as yet untransformed Thérèse comments, “You see, he only thinks about love”.
3
I love Greek mythology: Not only did the question of which gender enjoys sex better vexed the ancient Greeks, the gods themselves did not know the answer.
23
Bacon? Some wise person once said "There have been 3 great pleasures in my life - food, sex and music - and of these, music has always been the most reliable".
69
Many people are stating their opinions as facts in response to this article. Why does it matter which gender enjoys sex more? The whole topic strikes me as silly.
Seems to me each of us has an individual, unique experience of sex and that the generalities in this article and comments are useless and inaccurate. Reminds me of a junior high school conversation.
18
This article was so pointless. Here is a person, who as trans-woman, could shine light on the differences of sexual experiences as a man and as a woman. After baiting us about her transition, she frustratingly stays coy and worse, throws ancient Greek mythology at us. Why would NYT think that this is worthy of our time?
59
It's so painfully obvious that men enjoy sex more than women. Men are obsessed with sex. Why are there no female Harvey Weinsteins or Bill Cosbys? And "sex or bacon"? In all honesty, only a woman could think that it's even a contest. There isn't a man on earth who doesn't think sex is the greatest thing ever. Every man I know would give up any food item you could name before they'd give up sexual pleasure, without hesitation.
19
You might be confusing desire with gratification, as well as numerous ways culture-imposed roles influence our experience.
9
Perhaps there are fewer female sexual predators because women are socialized differently vis-a-vis sex? And not to quibble, but "Every man I know" is not a statistically relevant sample size.
1
Nope, he's completely right. When I was a teenager someone once said to me "however important you think sex is to men, you're grossly underestimating it." A lifetime later and I believe they were 100% correct.
How are male and female orgasms different? Dear Jennifer Finney Boylan, please tell us! (This article was literally a tease.)
18
The Greek mythology/religion had all the fun... Well, and death. And mayhem. And utter insanity.
I imagine Zeus as this guy who's like "here, hold my wineskin and watch this."
No wonder college frats/sororities are Greek!
3
Everyone's experience is unique by experience, circumstance, frame of mind, and desire. Orgasms are impossible to qualify.
5
Good sex depends on how giving your partner is. If you have a selfish partner then you will miss out on the joy and pleasure that good sex brings.
40
Not only that, if you are a selfish partner you will miss out on the joy and pleasure that good sex brings.
7
Let me bottom line it for you, imo opinion what personal experience has taught me and what general history has taught me.
Re heterosexual sex, both men and women enjoy it but they start from different angles.
Generally men are instantly aroused by the woman, get right into it and climax.
Women are slow to arouse, need love and told they are desirable and then get into it and climax.
The successful couple that negotiates the best usually has the most sex.
As to which one, enjoys it more, as the old ad goes, only your hair dresser (and God or nature) knows for sure.
35
That may be true for younger men, but older men often take quite awhile to become fully aroused while their partners enjoy several orgasms during the foreplay.
20
People want intimacy. Sex is incidental.
Men are conditioned to believe that they must hunt for sex and, if they do not, it is a mark against them. Men really want intimacy.
That is why people are not satisfied by casual sex. It is not meeting their true needs. People, men and women, enjoy intimate sex- if they get that they are satisfied.
12
That’s what one gets for serving gods – you get blinded, then given the power to know that you will be blind for a VERY long time. Mnuchin should take heed.
But it’s good to know the electrochemical reason that explains why liberals always are so excitable and impervious to reason: their lateral orbitofrontal cortexes shut down near-permanently. It’s probably why they’re always so grouchy: they’re de-sensitized.
It’s all bacon to me.
3
Umm, Don, you gotta attack conservatives and everyone thinks that’s cool? Okay I agree with your points — conservatives are conscientious and fearful, both traits that have served me very well. But at this point I think everything going on in the US political system has no bearing on the traditional labels ‘conservative’ and ‘liberal’. Hillary Clinton seemed very conservative to me — establishment and business oriented, a known quantity. Trump is the rebel here — I don’t think he’s conservative at all. I think he actually took what could have been Bernie Sanders’ votes because these suffering and ignored people couldn’t bare four years of the same. I think they voted for change not any conservative type values. They voted for hope. And what other option did they have?? Hillary — she was going to work for business and the rich elite. Okay, Trump does the same but at least he has a new last name (if I was American, btw, I would have held my nose and voted for Hillary).
3
Don:
Liberals' hyper-activity in the cingulate cortex isn't surprising, as this is the seat of Kumbaya. Republicans, by contrast, practice moderation in all things, but notably in berserker excess such as Kumbaya. That's not a bad thing: it's a GOOD thing.
And "fear" is a rational defense mechanism. When danger presents itself, it's fear that gets adrenalin pumping and prepares the body for the fight-or-flight reflex in the interests of self-preservation, of the individual and of the species. Liberals, by contrast, never see implications and are not sensitive to peril. This results in undivided Republican federal government and two-thirds of governorships and partisan statehouse chambers in Republican hands -- because voters aren't stupid.
You really have no reason to take heart -- the cure for Democratic personality disorder has already been administered and is working admirably: keep Democrats about sixteen galaxies away from real power.
C:
Well, thankfully, you're not American, particularly from our industrial Midwest. As it was, Trump only won the presidency because a mere about 77,000 Democrats there held their noses and voted for Trump.
And about Hillary: it's never a GOOD idea to run for national office here flogging the immense RAISING of taxes, and she was in favor of making a tax framework ALREADY almost completely dependent on our highest earners even MORE steeply progressive.
In short, if you want to be president, don't pretend you're a Dane.
Men enjoy sex far more consistently than women, although women have peaks of ecstasy that men may not reach.
Men's desire is also far more consistently higher. Women's desire often plummets in the long run.
There is a famous female French therapist who talks about how to 'reignite' women's sexual interest in long term relationships, but her advice is basically 'dude, be exciting and kind of unavailable.'.
That should tell you all you need to know about male versus female desire.
8
Stating your opinion as fact, cushioned with generalities, is rather aggravating. Speak for yourself, not for both genders.
23
Okay Douglas, I can tell you how to keep the fire going. In my opinion a woman, subconsciously, needs a restful enough situation that a baby could be born and not wreck her life — this is totally subconscious and probably biologically driven.
What I see happen to a lot of women is that when they have kids and a serious career they get very tired and because of that they lose all interest in sex. Sometimes, sadly, the woman also loses respect for the man . . . I do think women need to see the man bring masculine things to the table to be attractive — good earnings (probably higher than hers), protectiveness. Some women like a little bit of dominance in bed (not all, of course). But all women do not lose desire.
8
some people aren't given a choice of what they'd "give up." i rarely eat bacon, so giving it up would be no problem. on the other hand, i was never asked if i wanted to give up sex, but it seems the decision has been forced upon me. "celibate by popular demand" as a friend of mine phrases it.
28
An admirer in younger days once threw a fit because there was bacon in a simple dish of noodles prepared for our dinner, and he went on a tantrum because I had forgotten his religion.
A married friend with a handsome grown family has never touched bacon in her life, and I am not about to ask her of matrimonial affairs with her spouse.
Thanking Ms. Boylan for this latest of hers, and about to begin reading 'On Chesil Beach' by Ian McEwan where a virgin married couple begin navigating into unknown territory in a hotel by the sea.
2
Inasmuch as women frequently complain that men are obsessed with sex, and unable to distinguish the big head vs. the little head, it demonstrates ill grace even to raise the question.
Oh, I remember now. Feminists in the early 80s argued women's sexuality was not genitally focused, was more holistic, was kinder, than men's nasty genitally focused sexuality (which, by the way, was responsible for all the world's ills). Yeah, that's it.
7
I found some interest in the final Barth analogy. This is one of my favorite short stories and who knows exactly what it means, but I am convinced that it is actually a story about writing stories. The "funhouse" is the author's tale and Barth's sadness reflects that as one becomes a professional author one loses the pleasure of reading and the actual chore of writing stories for others is "building funhouses." The "lovers" are readers.
The analogy here might still be apt. Dissecting and analyzing eros whether in ancient times or modern times only makes one more withdrawn from the basic joy of the experience.
9
Maybe there's no "more" to the enjoyment of sex — just "differently."
If, after a morning session of love making, he answer to the old question, "Was it good for you?" is, 'Yes.", or, better, "YES!", then it's a good time to go start the bacon.
9
I appreciate that the author was willing to speak frankly about this topic; she certainly has an interesting perspective. One thing missing from the discussion, for me, was that I think women experience a higher amount of "bad sex" -- including painful sexual experiences and/or rape -- than men do. (Research backs this up -- women are much more likely to report pain during sex than men are.) On the other hand, the "good sex" they experience can be as good or better than it is for men. This is one reason why women would be wise to spend more time ascertaining whether they can effectively communicate with a partner before they sleep with that person. I don't think all good sex happens in committed relationships, but I think most good sex happens with partners capable of communicating well about what's working and what's not.
80
Having experienced sex from both the male and female perspectives as a trans person, Boylan acknowledges that orgasm/sexual pleasure is different for men and women but coyly declines to elucidate further. Those of us who are cis male or female might have surmised as much on our own. Why keep us in the dark? What exactly is the point of this piece?
88
Bingo! Exactly what I thought! I read her book many years ago and got a huge kick out of how she was experiencing being female while doing various things--very fresh and funny and I have not forgotten her takes on it--but this piece was completely unenlightened. Of course we know there are so many variables as to make it pretty much impossible to come to a scientific conclusion based on one trans person....but doesn't she have an opinion? Is it perhaps not the conclusion she wanted to come to? I don't know but I do wish she actually said something.
1
Quality strawberry ice cream, and wine. Alternating bites and sips. Lounging on the sofa, reading the NYT and writing comments. Not sexual, but near bliss. I'll take it, any day. Just saying.
19
Wait a minute! Tiresias said it's better for women, and HERA got mad and blinded him?
2
ikr? But re-read the article: Hera was mad because it implied that women were more susceptible to pleasure and lack of control. Men, by contrast, were thought physically, emotionally and rationally more stable and prided themselves in their self-control.
11
The story goes -- I don't know why this isn't in the article -- that Zeus justified his sexual escapades with other goddesses and mortals by saying that he needed much more quantity to balance out the much higher quality experience that Hera had. Fair's fair.
21
Of course Hera was furious! Zeus was such a sex addict he'd turn his lovers into animals in order to have sex with them and Hera is accused of being the unstable one? I'd be furious too.
88
This slips into the assumption that good sex and orgasm are the same thing. They are both good, but they are not the same things.
The author is not unique in this. It is the common terms of discussion about "good sex." It just misses everything about sex that is good other than just an orgasm.
29
Mark, re-read the article. I think the author states quite clearly that, in her opinion, good sex and orgasm are definitely NOT the same thing.
5
They may not be the same but why not have both?
2
Interesting article. As for personal sexual pleasure I can only say that I enjoy having sex but I find even greater joy when I know that I gave pleasure to someone else. Good sex for me is when the sex is a mutual exchange of pleasure. That is why I don't think I could enjoy sex for pay. If someone is having sex with me because I have paid for it I simply couldn't perform. It is the mutual desire to please and be pleased that makes a sexual encounter pleasurable for me.
The only other comment I care to make is that I think it a big mistake to confuse sex with love. I see no relation between the two, Having sex with someone you love is nice but simply not necessary - in fact it can become boring,
I have run into a number of people with whom the sex was great but there was simply nothing else we had in common. So be it - enjoy the sex and part on good terms.
14
"The only other comment I care to make is that I think it a big mistake to confuse sex with love. I see no relation between the two, Having sex with someone you love is nice but simply not necessary - in fact it can become boring,"
My dear friend, you are missing out on one of the greatest treasures life has to offer. It would be a great tragedy if this experience were to pass you by.
16
Actually David in Monticello, emotional love for someone can eventually interfere with desire. It is not "one of life's greatest treasures".
It hasn't passed me by. I treasure my 20 years of "married" sex with the person I love. I also treasure the wonderful sexual experiences I've had with others. I dare say my partner can say the same. Sometimes we have enjoyed other partners together.
Sexual jealousy is a curse although I do think a man should be reasonably certain that the child he is raising is his. Thank God for birth control. On the other hand how can one not love a child - any child, whoever may be the father?
1
Boylan opens her op-ed with a tease. Having lived trans, she insisted that she's experienced sex from both genders. And yet she never details the differences. What a shame.
93
It is misleading for the author to suggest she is qualified to compare the experiences of sex as a man v. woman. I am skeptical her current anatomy faithfully recapitulates the sensory wiring of a biological female and therefore the reporting on her perceptions as a woman are not authentic.
253
Even if it did replicate the wiring, the author's experiences are those of somebody who was once a man, which may or may not be the same as those of women who have never been men. Even if the wiring is the same, it does not follow that there are no psychological differences that, in this context, would be relevant.
105
p.s. Moreover, the author's experiences of sex as a man may not be in all relevant respects similar to those of men who do not feel that their bodies are of the wrong type for who they are.
22
It's telling that she uses bacon for comparison. For most women, the food to compare sex with would be chocolate. Bacon is nice, but it's a guy thing.
63
I'm not understanding how the author claims to have experienced the female orgasm. In spite of the surgery that she's undergone, I would think that this is a matter of one's entire physiology and psychology, not merely the alteration of several components of the body. Please enlighten me.
184
I read that transsexual surgery is essentially cosmetic surgery. One may appear to be and live as a sexual person other than the a person of the sex he or she was born. However the essential genetic package that one was born with has not (and cannot) be changed.
If I am wrong I should like to be corrected.
I salute transsexuals and I think it is wonderful that in today's world one can, via surgery, live the life one feels most comfortable to be in.
7
No mention of multiple orgasm? That's a pretty distinctive difference that favors women.
137
Also, women typically have more erogenous zones than men, and to women a whole-body orgasm comes naturally while men have to learn/train it.
16
What I learned at the Revolution: Love and sex are not the same thing. Both men and women can have and enjoy them separately, but they are exponentially better when you can experience both simultaneously. Young men rarely look for love when they have sex and women often seek love when they have sex because our culture stills stigmatizes women who have sex without love and/or marriage.
For men, women are too slow; for women, men go too fast. Women are afraid to hurt a man’s feelings and men are afraid of entanglements. For all of these reasons and more, an emotionally and sexually satisfying relationship is difficult to find and even more difficult to sustain, especially if you define it as the kind of initial burst of enthusiasm that characterizes early love. That stuff cannot last against the onslaught of everyday mundane existence. Both sex and love are saved by the development of a long term loving relationship. However, since women desire and need a sense of security for their best sex experiences that relationship develops optimally within a marriage — but marriage is no guarantee. Ands that represents only a few of the ways in which seeing sex from one side always falls short in understanding and perhaps why Teresias saw more when he lost his vision.
58
Excellent response to the article!
10
I disagree that it's cultural stigma which leads women to seek love or emotional security with someone prior to or as part of sex. I believe it's hard wired, and linked to the need to provide a secure environment for vulnerable offspring.
The Sexual Revolution conflated male and female equality with sameness. It promoted the lie that women - while having the same right as men to pursue unromantic, unattached sex - are just as eager and satisfied to do so. This is neither true among humans or virtually any other species. The stigma now is to be seen as a suppressed prude under the thumb of the patriarchy.
Ironically, this turning women into "one of the guys" has resulted in women greatly curtailing their once-enormous power to establish mating rituals and determine when and with whom sex occurs. And along with it, the long, slow dance of courtship, a form of foreplay which gives the woman time to connect with her would-be mate and create the emotional security and communication necessary to have good sex once it does occur, has fallen by the wayside.
23
i like the response too, except for one statement: that women only seek love when they have sex. Uhh, not true across the board, sorry. I've know plenty of women who were ravenous for sex, and didn't want any entanglements either - just like guys. Also knew some lesbians who liked to sleep around without commitments.
I don't have a ton of male friends so I cannot comment about the generalization posed about what men want.
Life might be easier if we can trust these generalizations. However, in reality, I think they're dangerous because they are used to make definitive statements about folks that put us into these boxes that don't define us. Then people feel guilty because they don't live up to the expectations thrust upon them.
If we keep saying that women need to be loved for good sex, and that men want sex but don't care about love, the stigmatization will live on.
15
Maybe it’s my looming old age (I’m a boomer) but newspaper stories about sex, its uses and misuses, a timeless story, don’t tantalize me as before (though I must confess that those snapshots of actress Brigitte Bardot in a Times’ story today by film critic A.O. Scott did draw me in—clickbait!)
Yes, sex is cool but have you ever tried to make someone care about the extinction of the grizzly bear?
28
You can have meaningful love without sex, but you can't have meaningful sex without love.
And not to worry. I believe in an eternal and symmetrical universe, that is, we will all be everyone and everything, an infinite number of times. It all comes out in the wash. It has already happened, it is happening right now, and it will happen forever. So there will be lots and lots of time to acquire all the experiences you could ever want, and then some.
PS Bacon is pretty disgusting, but then again, so is sex. Yet most people really want both. I guess that's the "human experience" for you.
PPS Try as I might, I can't seem to dredge up anything for you with the talking snakes. I'll just take your word for it that they're somehow important in all this.
5
As someone once said: “Sex without love may be a meaningless experience, but as meaningless experiences go...it’s one of the best.”
58
ok, ok, Annie, I suppose I deserve to be Woody Allened today; but I still don't get the talking snakes.
"Sex without love is as hollow and ridiculous as love without sex." (Hunter S. Thompson)
"Sex with love is the greatest thing in life. But sex without love -- that's not so bad either." (Mae West)
"I don't know the question, but sex is definitely the answer." (Woody Allen)
"Sex without love is merely healthy exercise." (Robert A. Heinlein)
"Sex is like washing your face -- just something you do because you have to. Sex without love is absolutely ridiculous. Sex follows love, it never precedes it." (Sophia Loren)
You'll have to look the rest up yourselves. Dealer's choice, people. I'm absolving myself of responsibility.
Nature designed males and females for sexual reproduction. Pleasure simply is a motivator. Males excite visually and activate more quickly, to be at the ready when females are in the fertile time of their cycle. Females take longer to come to orgasm to give them time to better assess whether this particular male will stay around to assist them in pregnancy and childbirth and childcare, rather than doing a wham-bam-thankyou-mam. The male brain ceases to function well when the male is aroused, for he is achieving erection so he can impregnate the female. But since the female will pay far more consequences for the sex act, pregnancy lifelong child bonding, her brain keeps on ticking until orgasm. This is why females should control the sexual process and not allow males to impose themselves without permission.
50
False premise. Great sex comes often in the absence or minimalization of the potential for procreation. We are not simply the bundle of biology you assert. That difference is why human sex is more fun and engaging than that of, for instance, cats.
26
Karen, glad you're having "great sex." But sex is not designed by Nature to be a recreational sport. It is serious business, about intimate relationship and bonding. "Great sex" is best experienced between two people who love each other.
1
This is in reply to the three people ahead of me who state their opinions on males, females and sex with such certitude. I think there's a fair amount of confusion between biology and socialization. Women can be ready for and enjoy sex without being in a "fertile time". We have no idea if sex is fun for cats. I actually like the cat version, ie. the females go out in the street and scream when they want it and the males fight for access. Then she chooses whoever she wants, fight winner or not. And...ponder why human females do not have a "heat" process like most (all??) other mammals. We can make sex whatever we want. Let's be kind and have fun.
22
This iswhy so many people dress for sex and others live out fantasy's they would find absurd, in ordinray life. Humans cannot often achieve orgasm, without ditching all the pre-packaged mores and political-legal hangups that they live with at other times. It may be the confusion that results, that has caused so much friction between a tiny minority of human males and females over the rules and regulations of sex and mating-(metoo seeems to believe "Harrison Bergeron" by Vonnegut a good idea).
Since women need to-like men-to lose all intellectual control over reproductive activity during "good sex", it is easy to see how some of them become subject to guilt, and feel that things they or another enjoyed with them during intercourse were a form of tyranny and "rape"like behavior-only if one considers all sex "offense" against the intellect can this be true. Some women have become convinced that they can have good manners, Mr. Right and a perfect "love" life all at the same time-but in fact-one's own brain refuses to allow this. Either you allow all control to lapse, or you won't ever enjoy it.
As a result, in the 70's I hunted up porn like a collector, my girlfriend loved the pretended loss of all control it represented. Read the "Story of O" some time, but remember-its all pretend!
6
This article tells me nothing. I'll double down and make the statement that with all the abuse that virtually every woman sustains, their approach to sex is too complicated for them to even be sure they are "having fun."
13
For whom is sex more pleasurable, men or women?
What, now it's a competition?
101
If pleasure were a competition, then the statement "everyone's a winner" can finally be said to be true.
4
Another war, this time between Nymphomaniacs and Satyrs?
Zeus and Hera apparently thought so.
2
"Love and sex are mysteriously wrapped together,". Totally agree. Female protective lore from years of sexual repression tends to condition and delude us to think that the two are not. Well, that original denial creates a lot of distortion, repression, internal lies, destruction of mental, emotional and physical health, etc.
Love without touch exists, but it not what we are designed for . Between touch and sex there is a wide spectrum. Sex, no touch, for a woman is worthless, if not a horror. As the article says, heterosexual women do not have enough time to reach orgasms like lesbians do. There's always that pressure...Touch, no sex, can be absolutely wonderful, but not all the time. Something else must be fulfilled once in a while at least. Both, done right, is the gate to heaven. Too few people have experienced that. Unfortunately. Too few men have experienced what a woman is capable of. Too many children born on the planet out of one-sided, loveless, touch-deficient sex relationships, totally biased in "favor" of the male fixation on "sex". The results are everyday on the news. Too few women experience full fulfilling satisfying relationships. Time to change, or we will all drown again in the swamp of sexual repression seemingly back to attack us from all corners.
17
Bacon
31
Ice cream and vodka, any time.
2
Bacon has calories, sex burns them. And sex won't clog your arteries.
11
@ Mary I was answering what I would gladly give up bacon!!
@sandhillgarden I would take sex over ice cream and vodka andy day or night of the week.
The only thing that would cause me to ponder "giving up sex" would be a seductively textured, deep and refined, sumptuous and sensuous Bordeaux or Burgundy wine.
I wonder, however, whether the author can judge before and after experiences in her own life. Transition may have aligned desire and outcomes for the first time. The post-transition experience may not be attributable generally to gender.
71
A person's sex life embraces intimacies not readily disclosed, hence the absence of comment here as late as quarter to eight.
My mother, dying young, prepared me for my father's possible remarriage by saying, "A woman can live without that but a man can't."
My impression is that a man's desire is more sudden, more intense, more demanding -- basing this on a long & fulfilling marriage with a very agreeable & loving woman.
Or briefly: for the man sex is imperious, for the woman, under the right circumstances, agreeable.
16