I was at the border fence several years ago. There was a greenfield stretching several hundred yards in Gaza. The Israelis who took me to the fence said that they use to go to Gaza and buy vegetables. ll that cahnged with Hmas. Very sad.
So the Gazans did nothing now for several years, that is they were peaceful, but what have the Israelis done. Nothing but take more land and block attempts to improve the Palestinians environment.
I’m not sure if you are aware but much of the land on the Gazan side of the border adjacent to the border fence is under extreme restrictions to use by the Israelis. The NyTimes has a great illustration that you should look up, which may illuminate you as to why the Palestinians haven’t fully utilized this land.
The Palestinians believe they are right, they feel hopeless and helpless, and want freedom to cross the fence and have a future.
The Israelis believe they are right, they feel threatened, and want to protect their citizens from the threat of a mass incursion.
Both sides feel completely justified in their actions, there's no middle ground and no apparent solution in sight, and that's the Nakba or catastrophe of the situation.
@Jon: In 2006, the Palestinians elected Hamas, a terrorist organization that brags about bombing family restaurants such as Sbarro in Jerusalem to lead them. A civil war with the other party, Fatah, ensued killing many Palestinians.
Hamas has not permitted elections were supposed to have occurred in 2010, almost a decade ago.
Egypt closed its border with Gaza because terrorists from Gaza were killing Egyptian soldiers in Sinai.
By electing Hamas, the Palestinians including Hamas have only themselves to blame.
Until there are new elections that elect leadership that are interested in peace, there is nothing Israeli or any other country in the US can do.
And the ׳punchline’ is not funny. Both sides are right and both sides are wrong! King Solomon is nowhere to be found.
Both sides are Semites. Both sides have similar language. It is time to realize that you are long lost closings and treat each other with love and respect.
Any comments by our esteemed members of Congress on the last disproportionate show of force used by our special friends in the Middle East against people living in the occupied Gaza protesting the unlivable conditions they are living under because of the United States policy in the Middle East? Any mild rebukes, suggestions of restraint, not even a "it's not helpful for peace" canned response? Hello........???????
Putin owns the Whited House; Netayahu owns the Capitol Building.
None, they all have their hands out for more money.
I am really surprised by how surprised people are that congress did not condemn the murder of Palestinian protesters. The pro-Israel lobby controls congress and US foreign policy in the Middle East. Criticising Israel is political suicide and so is siding up with the Palestinians.
Boy have I changed my opinion on Israel. I once had such admiration for them and the way they built this incredible country from nothing. But over the past few years, with their hard and merciless turn to the right, they certainly have lost my sympathy.
Joanna Stelling -
Hamas has admitted that 50 of the 62 fatalities were Hamas members. Perhaps you should ask yourself whether that's the result of mercilessness or of an extremely successful effort at avoiding civilian casualties in the midst of planned chaos. I have to admire Israel for this.
Plus, there really was no reason to move the Embassy. It was done simply to score a petty political point. What was wrong with it in Tel Aviv. The Israelis built it out of a swamp with their bare hands. Why poke the bear? Basically its going to spiral out of control until people on each side get tired of killing. Look at Northern Ireland, as some point the two sides have to come together and neither will get exactly what they want.
Israel turned Gaza over to the Palestinians, and see what happened. Instead of Gazans flourishing in their own country, Gaza became a hotbed of propaganda and terror against Israel.
By the way, the "demonstrations" were carried out precisely to pander to people like you. The more bodies, the more sympathy, the more power and funding to Hamas. Since it works so well they will continue to use the poor Gazans as cannon fodder. Hold yourself responsible.
It is telling, though what it is telling I don't know, that there are no comments. Has it all been said, now? This story makes my stomach hurt, and that is my comment.
The online lead to this article describes Israelis as "defiant, defensive or blasé". Where exactly is the "sorrow" identified by the online headline?
Per The Onion, I would imagine the sorrow is over the damage to the border fence.
Yes indeed, where's the sorrow? In Ivanka's jubilant smile? Or Netanyahu's conqueror's stance?
For outside parties (US, UK et al) to establish a new country in that area after more than a half century of their meddling in Middle Eastern affairs may have solved one problem (refugees from central and eastern Europe) but created another (refugees in the Middle East). For the US to tip the balance of power in the region with huge infusions of aid, much of it military, was bound to inflame even further and guarantee no permanent solution would be found. Add into the mix that Israel is based on religious identity and you have thrown gasoline on the fire and lit a match. How would we feel if Syria decided to take over part of Ohio or all of Riverside County in California and declare it a Muslim state for Syrian refugees? No fiction or "right of return" to cover over the forced land grab, but still an imposition of a solution from the outside without consent of those most affected.
The Zionist movement grew out of a legitimate nationalist movement, of a people scattered for two millenia returning to our homeland. As much as anyone may wish it were not true, Jews are an ethnicity as well as a religious group, with common ancestry (and there's DNA evidence to support that), a common language, common customs, a common religion (for the most part; Orthodox and Reform Judaism a very different theologies) and a nationalist sense of community, reinforced by the simple fact that the world will not let any of us forget that we were born Jews and remain Jews in the eyes of the world. Consider this: the world still considers Karl Marx, Felix Mendelssohn and Benjamin D'Israeli Jewish despite that they were all baptised Christians.
The Arab League expelled Jews from their countries, or allowed anti-Jewish violence to chase them out, flooding Israel with 850,000 refugees. They were all absorbed by the Jewish state. The Arab world CHOSE to allow 600,000 Arab refugees from the British Mandate to languish as refugees with only Jordan allowing them to become citizens.
While the world may choose to consider Israel a "colonial outpost", the reality is that virtually all Jews have their origins in the MIddle Ease and close to Half of Jewish Israeli belonging to families who came there from Arabic countries so they did not have to remain third-class citizens depending upon the kindness of strangers.
Israel says at least 24 of 60 Gazans reported killed at border were terrorists.
Hamas is reportedly turning back trucks from Israel with medical supplies.
The problems that the Gazans have is that they voted for Hamas to rule them in 2006. Hamas is a terrorist organization that brags about terrorist attacks of family restaurants such as Sbarro in Jerusalem. A civil war with Fatah ensued killing far, far more Palestinians than killed at the border wall. Hamas has not permitted new elections that were supposed to have nearly a decade ago in 2010. Hamas, unlike Fatah, refuses to recognize Israel, thus making peace an impossibility.
Egypt has closed their border with Gaza because terrorists from Gaza have killed Egyptian soldiers in Sinai.
The Gazans (and their brethren in The West Bank) are suffering from poor leadership. If only they would sign a peace agreement, their economic well-being would markedly improve. Israel is one of the most advanced economies on the planet, just two places below Japan on the Human Development Index.
With appropriate leadership, the Palestinians should have been benefiting from being next door to this powerful economy, unfortunately not much can be done until there are new elections with leaders that wish to improve the economic well-being of their citizens.
You have Palestinians that want Israel destroyed, an ego maniac incompetent demagogue like Trump and a despot like the leader of Israel.
Yet, the above are not the direct cause of the tragedy.
The citizens of all three countries are, electing incompetent leaders.
The position of the Israeli leader should have been, we view Jerusalem as our capital but will hold off on it till a final accord is met. The leader of the USA should have agreed to the policy and the Palestinians should not have rioted.
IMHO, it's ironic that there was no Hamas until Israel invaded Lebanon to end PLO raids into Israel from there. With U.S. help, the PLO was removed to Tunisia, ending its contact with Palestinians in the occupied territories; Hamas was created to fill the void. There are signs that Hamas itself is mellowing; it's possible it will be supplanted by its most rabid activists. Arguably, some sort of political dialogue between the U.S. and Hamas could mitigate that prospect.
"“The only alternative would have been, in that case, to mow them down one and all,”"
Perhaps that would save lives in the long run. By illustrating how futile it is to run at professional soldiers.
The article mentions, in passing and towards the end, that a substantial number of Hamas terrorists were using the civilians as human shields in an attack. That's not surprising but should have been the lede of this article and countless others like it.
I'm unaware of any journalists asking why the citizens of Gaza don't attempt to force their way through the Rafah border crossing with their Egyptian neighbors. Perhaps it's with the knowledge that Egypt like Syria would certainly not tolerate the kind of rioting encouraged by Hamas and managed by Israel in a relatively humane way. How many Syrians have died in a protest that truly started without violence unlike the rioting promoted by Hamas. The Israelis have been forced to kill by the each whereas their neighbors don't seem to blink at killing by the thousands.
The Hamas just admitted that 50 of the casualties were members of the Hamas. People in Europe and the US do not understand that by strongly supporting the Hamas they are backing up their position of an Islamic country over the whole of Israel. This backup only postpones a two country peacful solution and strengthens the right wing in Israel for obvious reasons.
So, being a member of Hamas is now a capital offense?
I grew up in a Jewish family that strongly supported Zionism. I remember the button proudly worn by my Great Aunt. I remember the commemorative medallion my grandfather gave me celebrating Israel's victory in the Six Day War. I remember the donations to Israel; what we are seeing now represents an abandonment of values on an incredible scale.
I'm also tired of reading articles that dutifully repeat whatever justifications spoke people trot out after the shootings of many civilians. It's hard to believe that we would see similar coverage of similar events elsewhere.
Most weren't civilians. Have you figured that out yet?
The settlers in the America West thought they had a god given right to take over indian land and march them off to reservations. What the Zionists have done is even worce they have taken the Palestinian land and marched them off to a strip of land that offers little future for them
not civilians. fake news. Hamas official: 50 of the 62 Gazans killed in border violence were our members Salah Bardawil's confirmation means number of acknowledged members of terror groups who died on Monday and Tuesday is now 53 see:https://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-official-50-of-the-people-killed-in-...
A Hamas official confirmed that 50 out of the 62 dead at the fence were Hamas operatives. Israelis are realists and the IDF has excellent intelligence. The world's knee-jerk condemnation might be better aimed if it waited for the facts.
Yes, all murderers come up with justifications for their crimes and they may really believe that bogus justification in their own heads. Always. No murderer would ever admit that he/she committed a crime. "Her skirt was too short", or "he checked out my wife" or "there were Hamas members in the crowds",...
I don’t care what political party they belonged to, they were human beings who were killed from hundreds of years away by snipers. Most were teens or early twenties. That is a war crime, period.
Impossible situation from the get-go. Whose land is it? Which religious or offiical tract do you use for your evidence to state your claim? How much does the US provide Israel in money, arms, and support? How much to the other Arab nations much less Palestine? How does NIkki Haley use the word restraint w/o irony when settlements continue w/the blessings of Bibi et al, in spite of earlier protests by some in the US? It seems that we could in fact push harder for some relief for Palestinians, or perhaps we could have, before Hamas entered the fray. We lost that chance. We've none now but to continue to add fuel to the fire as we've done by moving the US embassy there. Ivanka wore a dress that matched the stone, limestone I think, of the building.
Interesting remark. However, it ignores the fact that the Israelis unilaterally withdrew from Gaza, leaving behind important infrastructure that the Palestinians could have used. Unfortunately, the Gaza Palestinians destroyed that infrastructure and, shortly thereafter, chose Hamas as their governing caste.
Can you imagine the crescendo of condemnation if Ukrainians tried to cross into Crimea and Russian forces shot to death 61 and injured hundreds? Not only eschewing criticism of Israel for using disproportionate force, UN ambassador Halley walked out when Palestinian ambassador started addressing the UN security council. USA is the problem, a big stumbling block to peace.
"I hope at least that each bullet was justified" is not sufficiently sorrowful to me.
I can imagine this degree of sorrow: Hamas/Hezbollah/Iran (and BDS, perhaps?) achieve their goal and destroy Israel via missles, tunnels, mass incursions and boycotts. Then the rest of the world - almost all of the UN General Assembly - has a moment of silence, someone says "what a shame" and then back to business.
Such is "sorrow" as pertains to Israel.
Why is sorrow even called for? These people asked for it... sought out death to boost their propaganda.
the point that some Israeli's feel very empathetic towards the palestinians and sad about what is going on is missed by all these writers. No one sees much of that diversity of thought among Palestinians who have been brainwashed to hate the Jews and Israelis. The nabka is a tragedy, but why are Palestinians the only people on earth to be guaranteed a right of return? why is there no talk of the palestinians expelled from Jordan?? The Jews and Roma of Germany and Austria and Hungary and Poland had no right of return. the 150,000 + Jews expelled or fled from Iran, Yemen, other Arab states have no right of return. armenians? Cambodians who fled Pol pot? Croatians and Serbs? Borders change all the time, sadly. Why the Palestinians think they are so special. Look at the map: Israel is less than 1% land of the Middle East, and no oil. So odd that the Arab countries will not help their brethren. Egypt has a strict border with Gaza as well.
Since the 4th Geneva Convention all people expelled militarily have the right of return. And, morally all deserve that right.
These people were not bent on a peaceful protest ... These people were bent on breaching the official recognized border in order to kill Israelis and burn their fields and houses. What should the Israelis have done ? What would any other country have done ? What would Syria or Iran or Russia have done ? What would the US, Britain, France have done ?
Find a political solution is what Britain and France would do.
Britain and France wouldn't have moved the embassy to Jerusalem, and certainly wouldn't have chosen that particular day to do it. The provocation was extreme: blame trump and all the other orchestrators of the embassy move for inciting predictable violence.
This story, from Canadian professor Gad Saad, was recently posted on Twitter:
We escaped our homeland (Lebanon) in late 1975. When my parents returned to Beirut, our home had been illegally taken over by Palestinians. We moved on. We did not harbor any collective resentment and hatred toward Palestinians.
The history of our species is replete with endless examples of conquered territories. Most nations today were once occupied by someone else. Such is history. I am typing these words from a location where the Iroquois and Algonquins were once. You are likely reading these words from a location that was once inhabited and "owned" by other people.
There is no reason why innumerable peoples have accepted the reality of history but a few others prefer to drown their future prospects in past grievances. The collective victimhood narrative is a form of perverse power wherein it becomes yourself from victimhood. Process the past but move on to a brighter future.
I hate the fact that we left Lebanon because of religious hatred but I've accepted this reality and have built a worthy life for myself & my family elsewhere.
Recognize your past, process it, and move on. This is true at the individual level and true at the collective level.
Cheers from La Belle Province.
"Tens of millions of people throughout the entire world, including Jews, underwent similar expulsion. But only the Palestinians adopted an ethos of rejectionism, victimhood, suffering and death". To turn that argument around, "Tens of millions of people throughout the entire world, including Jews, underwent similar expulsion. But only the Jewish people adopted an ethos where they inflicted suffering and death on another ethnic group and justified it by blaming the victims". We all know that the path to peace is through empathy and love. Right now, it is the people of Israel who do not seem to have the courage to follow that path.
It is your ‘victims’ who tried as hard as they could several times to drive Israel into the sea. And what if they succeed? The entire region would resemble a refugee camp.
Just complete and total nonsense. If Hamas gave up its goals of killing Jews and destroying Israel, and turned to focus on improving the lives of the people of Gaza, it could sign a peace treat with Israel today.
Not all Jews are Israelis. In fact, the majority of Jews are not Israelis. And a significant number of Jews (not sure if it's the majority or not) are pretty horrified at what's going on.
Always from the Israeli perspective with the Israeli commentary... Why not ask those Palestinian families who were forcibly removed from their homes and villages by the jewish terror groups Haganah, Lehi, and Irgun about their dreams and aspirations as they languish in an open air prison?
This always has been and will always be about Palestinians' right to return to the homes they were dispossessed of in 1948. Each day that passes with the millions of Palestinian refugees in exile is a compounding crime against humanity. Those nation states and politicians who fight so hard to be on the wrong side of history in order to support this European colonial theocracy for want of votes and donations will ultimately have to reconcile with their inhumane choices and the lives that their intransigence impact.
No. It has always been about the Palestinians refusal to accept that the Jews have any right to live in Palestine/Israel. They were dispossessed in 48 because they made war instead of accepting Partition. Accept the Partition plan, and not one Palestinian would have lost their home. What's going on today is Gaza is just more of the same failed approach by the Palestinians.
Since you live in NYC, which was once Native American land, I hope you will leave back to your ancestral lands, along with every other person in America who is not of Native American descent. So, let's ship hundreds of millions of people of European descent back to Europe.
Sounds totally feasible, right?
Yes, Israel is a nation state for the Jewish people, with the Hebrew language as its official language and dominant Jewish culture. It is also a democratic state that protects the rights of minorities while STILL being a nation state. It is not a multinational state. Get over it.
And if you're so hell - bent on the right of return you can go back to your ancestral lands (certainly not NY) and make sure every Jew displaced from Europe and the Middle East (Iran, Syria, Iraq for example) can return home too. Thanks.
I'm used to the news of whatever the latest thinly-veiled Christian v. Islam violence news story contains. Neither side wants to work it out, and the US is simply working the situation to get what it wants. What's going to cause me to protest in the streets is the distinct possibility that with the coming multi front war pitting the white Christian west against the Muslims, my children will be ordered to join the military and participate. Over my dead body.
Defending? It has been reported that unarmed women and children have been murdered in cold blood by Israeli soldiers. The massacre is worse than Tienanmen Square.
Hamas just admitted in an interview that 50 of the 60 just killed were Hamas operatives. The baby that died had a prexisting condition.
Sorry, but your unarmed women and children narrative is baloney. You've swallowed the bait, hook, line and sinker!Hamas just tweeted that 50 of those killed in Monday's "massacre" were Hamas operatives, who generally are armed to the teeth!
Who in all decency would bring their baby or small children to such a protest. No excuse !!!!
Israelis have never celebrated the death of any Palestinian; rather, they lament what is sometimes necessary. I don't think all Palestinians celebrate the wanton acts of terrorism against Israelis, either, but sadly many do. Quite openly. There is a difference.
You clearly do not watch the news. We have seen incidents the IDF filmed themselves of laughing and joking when they shot down a Palestinian target in Gaza. Both sides have gloried in their violence.
Sorry, but I've lived and worked in Israel and to claim that Israeli's have 'never celebrated the death of any Palestinian' is - to be polite - untrue.
Very, very untrue.
So the death of a Palestinian is "sometimes necessary", but the death of an Israeli is a "wanton act of terrorism". I see your sense of the "difference".
I'm sick of hearing from the poor oppressors point of view, even more than I'm sick of reading about hipster Brooklyn, NY real estate and the latest mainstream pop-sensation. I'm now sorry that I took out a Times subscription in support of the recent attacks on journalism. I'll be looking for more deserving journals that don't pander and have greater integrity.
Here are a few other American and Israeli reflections on Gaza and the plight of Palestinians in general:
1. “What a glorious day! Remember this moment,” shouted Benjamin Netanyahu to the assembled guests at Monday's embassy celebrations in Jerusalem. Israel’s prime minister, currently a subject of criminal investigation, should rest assured that the day will be remembered and mourned by Palestinians (and much of the world) in the years to come.
2. Naftali Bennett, Israel’s hardline education minister, put what the foreign ministry called the “murderous rioters” on notice. By taking part in the demonstrations, Palestinians were self-identifying as terrorists, said Bennett. If innocent Palestinians were shot dead, Bennett implied, it was their own fault for associating with demonstrators.
3. American (and Jewish) ambassador, David Friedman, loyally praised Trump’s “vision and courage” for moving the embassy to Jerusalem. As a lawyer, Friedman specialized in bankruptcy proceedings, representing the Trump Organisation when its Atlantic City casinos went belly-up. Some have questioned Friedman's diplomatic credentials, but they seemed entirely appropriate on Monday, as the ambassador praised president Trump for his "moral clarity" as dozens of women and children were gunned-down during the embassy celebrations.
Yes ...... just a few other reflections of Israelis and Jewish Americans on the plight of the Palestinian people.
4. “If they are hungry, the people of the Gaza Strip will eat the livers of those besieging them” — Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar
This is who we give billions in military aid to each year?
My feelings are also mixed: anger, horror, and shame. Sharpeville.
Disgusting: There is no valid comparison to Sharpeville.
Regardless of which side one chooses to empathize with most, one thing seems certain: This situation cannot stand. At what point does Israel become a sort of physical and moral prison for its own people? It seems that reality is close if not already here. I am afraid by choosing to back Israel, right or wrong, the United States is enabling the worst of all outcomes.
Hamas just tweeted that 50 of those killed Monday were Hamas members. So much for the massacre narrative, but when it comes to besmirching Israel, facts are irrelevant.
60 out of 2,000 wounded is a fact that negates the idea of a massacre?
And so what if they're Hamas members. Hamas is their "government". It's like saying all the soldiers were the IDF members so it's okay to shoot kill and permanently disable nearly 3000 of them. Israeli's should wake up. The extent of this disaster and this cold blooded massacre is hurting Israel in the way that no enemy of Israel could ever achieve. Making excuses for killing everybody in their way to grab more land is going to destroy them and they have nobody to blame but themselves.
Murder is murder regardless.
Thousands of Palestinians marched to the border fence with molotov cocktails trying to break down the barrier. They brought babies and children. Why??? (pretty crazy thing to do! Unless their intention was to portray Israel on the world stage as evil when those children were hurt or killed, which is exactly what happened). They were warned over and over by the Israeli patrol to back off or they'd be shot, but they ignored the warnings, and they got shot... Israel wanted to protect it's border, and citizens, from an influx of thousands of angry protestors (and possible terrorists). Seems to me the Palestinians, or those leading them, got a victory here; portray Israel as the bad guy... I actually had sympathy for the Palestinians until I read that they brought babies and children to this extremely dangerous situation...
They didn't bring babies and children close to the fence. The baby who died was hit by tear gas from an Israeli drone far from the fence.
When the bully gives you a bloody nose, it is always important for the bully to blame the victim. As soon as Palestine and Israel was partitioned, the Israelites began to attack Palestine. Israel's goal was, is and always will be the forced exile of all Palestinians and the incorporation of Palisitine into "Greater Israel." Of course Palestine fought back.
The situation between Israel and the Palestinians is the sad story of two rights gone wrong. As of 70AD, the rebellious Jews lost thier land to the Romans, were scattered and for the next 2000 yrs the land became Palestine. After 2000 yrs, the same land was offered to the longsuffering Jewish people, escaping the holocaust, which was obviously unacceptable to the Palestinian/Jordanian Arabs inhabiting the same land for centuries. There is no solution to a problem when two people claim a legitimate right for the same land. The muddled foreign policy of Trump, controlled by Netanyahu, has finally created an impasse in the region. There will be no solution...ergo no peace in the Middle East.
Or as Lincoln so nobly said in his second inag... speech and I am paraphrasing him, no side wanted this war and it came, let us hope that it speedily ends but if it doesn't it is the price we pay for hundreds of yrs of slavery (or in the mideast case hatred between groups).
Not certain why occupation by ancestors over 2000 years ago qualifies as a legitimate right to the land. Do Native Americans have the right to reclaim both North and South America? It makes as much sense, perhaps more sense due to less passage of time, as the Jewish claim.
There is a simple solution, respect the right (see Geneva Conventions) which protects the civil population of areas controlled by an foreign power.
Oh, I forgot, Israel is above the law and yes the Israeli did not sign those conventions, which gives them the right to enforce their own "divine" right.
It's the same story with the atomic non-proliferation treaty which they did neither sign or respect but to which they refer when it comes to neighboring countries.
We are asked to feel sorry for the soldiers who were "forced" to shoot down unarmed women and children on the other side of a fence, because they got "too close."
Poor babies, suffering the mental trauma of shooting hundreds of innocents.
At least most were maimed, rather than killed. They can still hop around on one leg, so its okay.
Not a single Israeli soldier was even hurt. These were snipers.
This myth of “women and children” shot dead while demonstrating peacefully at the Israeli border is a collective delusion. The photographs and videos show otherwise: that most of the assailants were young men. Hamas itself acknowledges that 50 of the 62 dead are theirs, and 3 more are Islamic Jihad. The many injured were shot in the leg to deter them, not kill them. Hamas bribed families $100 to attend the protests. Most stayed in the back, safe from tear gas. But there were tens of thousands gathered. Hamas megaphones directed them to get close to the fence. Tires were set on fire, the toxic black smoke to obscure the attempts to cut the wire fence and plant incendiary devices. Israeli farming communities lay just over the border. Not reported here: 3 times this past month the Gazans destroyed their own fuel lines at the Kerem Crossing. Israel provides the fuel, electricity, and humanitarian relief to Gaza, but Gazans destroy it, deepening the Hamas-caused crisis in their territory. For the Hamas elite, however, there is plenty of food, fine houses and social life. If the media, including the New York Times, reported the entire story, and if the readers opened their eyes to the reality, there would be pity and wonder at the self-destructiveness and needless sacrifice of the lives in Gaza.
We should feel sorry for the soldiers because they don't realize that their country is taking away their humanity at the same time it takes away Palestinian humanity.
So today, Hamas admits that of the 62 people killed while trying to breach Israel's sovereign borders, 50 were Hamas members (aka, terrorists). The loss of any life is tragic, but Hamas has been using the citizens of Gaza as sacrificial pawns in a chess game for public relations victories. They should take the hundreds of millions of aid that they received and invest in their people instead of attack tunnels.
It is a horrible thought but it may be the case that Israel shows the greatest racially biased disregard of those it administers of any developed country. This is what some of the original builders of the Zionist project feared and some expected. What they couldn't have predicted is that religion would come to play such a dominate role in the self-definition of a vital block of Israeli voters. This morning I heard the heart felt opposition of Bari Weiss to the settlements that have captured hill after hill that look down upon the impoverished Palestinians. I am sure she is being sincere but then I also know that she is aware that these settlements will never be removed. Nothing impresses one more of the commitment to rob every inch of Palestinian land than a trip across the West Bank where developments that could be in South Florida cover hill after hill. And this land can be taken because those who live there believe that they are commanded by God to take every inch. I once had one of my students at a modern orthodox yeshiva innocently say what sort of peace the Palestinian's could have, "we will be peaceful to them as they all leave"
The soldiers used rifles, not automatic weapons or bombs, to defend against people who were attempting to invade their country.
I think the invaders who totally precipitated this madness got off easy.
Put simply, the Israeli military has had years to prepare for an event such as this. The fact that they did so little to prepare, and instead relied on deadly force to repel an entirely foreseeable protest, bespeaks an inhuman callousness. The IDF's failure to make proper preparations for repelling large numbers of unarmed protestors using the minimum amount of violence necessary was, at best, grossly negligent, and at worst, actively malicious.
Totally wrong. The IDF does use some non lethal methods.Unfortunately, they don't work very well and especially against large crowds. In addition, they work against "protestors", but they aren't effective against really determined people whose goal isn't to protest, but to cross to the other side of the fence and kill people.
All of the coverage has referred to Gaza as a kind of "open air prison", and subject to a "blockade", but nobody has said why this is so. Gaza is ruled by Hamas, and Hamas spends most of the large amount of money it receives, from outside sources and from extorting and taxing the residents of Gaza, on producing weapons and tunnels. It spends just about all of its time thinking of how to smuggle in weapons and building materials in order to attack Israel. Israel has established terminals where incoming goods can be inspected. Hamas has repeatedly destroyed them. Hamas wants misery and uses it as a tactic. Exhorting Gazans to rush the fence in the hope that it can be breached so that its agents can infiltrate and murder Israelis is just the latest episode.
Unfortunately, the only possible outcome to this protest is that a few dozen/hundred more civilians, mixed in with maybe a handful of militants, will die, before it simmers down and eventually becomes a distant memory, one probably none of you would even remember if asked about it in six months' time. Israel will not allow its border to be breached by a hodgepodge of terrorists, civilians, and terrorists disguised as civilians, when the nearest Israeli villages lay feet from the border. Hamas will not miss a good press day by calling off the breaching of the border before Israel receives sufficiently bad press for killing civilians. So the wheel keeps turning. Another day in perpetual double-edged Nakba. Let's all be happy to have our first world problems and dilemmas.
Every death is a tragedy, and we all want peace rather than violence. But the majority of the dead were Hamas terrorists, according to a Hamas official. What would the USA do if terrorists tried repeatedly to infiltrate our border?
“Hamas official: 50 of the 62 Gazans killed in border violence were our members”
This is pure Israeli propaganda, most of the killed have nothing to do with the Hamas which anyway has less blood on its hands than the IDF. The real terrorists are on the other side.
"In the last round of confrontations, of 62 people martyred, 50 of them were Hamas” - Hamas spokesman (Salah Bardawil) in a television interview earlier today.
I'm glad at least someone is acknowledging what actually happened.
So, even if this was true and we are to believe Hamas, how is it ok to kill members of Hamas? Just being affiliated with Hamas, the ruling party if Gaza, means you are as good as dead? And how would the snipers know they were shooting HAMAS? The whole argument is nonsense. Eight kids were killed.
Did you ever wonder why Gazans don't storm the border fence on the Egyptian side? Because there would be no protestors left. Nor would there be any countrywide self-reflection or remorse in Egypt. Israelis doesn't want violence but they also don't to succumb to it. And they know the neighborhood they live in shows no mercy in war. See recent history in Syria, Iraq, Yemen, Bahrain, Libya, and Lebanon if you need examples.
After 70 years of building no institutions, no educational system, no means for trade, no real business, or have any other policy or thought than, "It's Israel's fault", it's hard for me to feel any empathy for the followers of Hamas. They seem to have no problem building tunnels, launching rockets, or any aspect of war and killing. But now they're using their own people as "martyrs" to get support?! I'd probably have a bit more respect for their leaders, I have zero now, if they were leading the march, AND staying at the front of the march so they become the martyrs they so revere, as opposed to thieves that take the peoples monies and live in luxury.
Contrary to what this article would suggest, there have, in fact, been protests in Israel against the military's use of force at the Gaza border.
Hamas official: 50 of the 62 Gazans killed in border violence were our members. Salah Bardawil's confirmation means number of acknowledged members of terror groups who died on Monday and Tuesday is now 53
@Michael: This is encouraging; could you please provide relevant URLs. Thanks.
On May 14, 2018 over 60 Palestinians were killed by Israel in one day! these Palestinians were civilians without guns!
What other nation on earth would kill 60 civilians engaged in peaceful protests and no eyebrows are raised? But, a slap on the wrist as always, is what Israel gets?
Palestinian lives are taken as valueless, worthless and meaningless, while President Trump, as the rabble rouser in-chief, has now added accelerants to a raging inferno with his relocation of the American Embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem on May 14, 2018.
Last month, Israel also killed 31 Palestinians and the world prevaricated. The United Nations toothless wimpy bulldog could not even establish a Committee to investigate the unwarranted killings of Palestinians!
In 2014, according to the United Nations, Israel killed 2,104 Palestinians but the Palestinian leaders put the killing at over 2,500 Palestinians and the world has looked on impishly and sheepishly.
At the United Nations and elsewhere, the current mantra is clearly that power or might is right. As such, Israel is allowed to constantly use its Sledge hammer to kill mosquitoes, with winks and nods from America and some other Western powers
Not civilians by any stretch. Hamas says 50 of them were Hamas. Another 3 were from another terrorist organization. Hamas makes clear it is in a war to destroy Israel. What is the morality of "soldiers" hiding behind civilians? No other nation would tolerate an invasion like this.
Hamas is trading blood for headlines. It's working.
Just like Ghandi, King, Mandela. I’ll admit Hamas is not as ethically clean as those three. But for decades the Palestinians have been subjugated, often after their own mistakes. But what other course of action would work. I have been troubled over the years, why the Palestinians don’t adopt complete non-violence like Ghandi. If they did everything peacefully, the Israeli’s would lose the high ground. I don’t understand why the smartest Palestinians don’t see this.
I am routinely censored on these comment sections because I express a pro-Israel opinion, whereas out-n-out anti-Semitic rants typically walk through the front door. But here goes, I’ll express an Israeli opinion straight from Jerusalem, which, for fact, speaks for many over here:
This is Jewish land. All of Israel. There is no “occupation” by Israel, and there never was. The nation of Israel lives in Israel by grace of God’s decision, which is encapsulated in the Hebrew Bible. Yes, the same Hebrew Bible that the other world religions then adopted into their own theologies. So long as we keep the commandments of the Hebrew Bible, Israel is promised it shall continue to thrive in its homeland. There is incontrovertible evidence of thousands of years of Israelite civilization in this land. We have now returned home after multiple attempts to genocide us, while the world just laughed.
Islam controls over 99% of the Middle East and those countries have plenty of room for other Muslims, if they only opened their doors. So many Muslim countries that can’t stand to see a little tiny Israel in their midst. They and the Palestinians (and I call them that because that is how they self-identify), could have had peace numerous times, and instead have chosen genocide and hate over and over. No one doubts they would murder us all mercilessly if they could. And yet not only do we survive, we provide the world with light and hope and numerous scientific advances.
It’s God’s movie. Deal.
So, if another group of people in Israel arrived there today and said, "Hey, according to OUR holy book, this land was OURS 2,000 years ago so we're here to take it back", you would be okay with that and just move all the Israeli's into camps so that this new group could live out their religious dream?
So-called "god" never gave anything to anyone. Israel was deeded to the Nation of Jews by the United Nations, which is a conglomeration of the nation's of the world, to make recompense for what the Germans did. That biblical stuff doesn't count for anything in the real world.
Palestinians are Semites, too.
Sounds like a plan that Trump could use instead of building a wall. Just shoot them all. My respect for Israel is hovering near zero.
The behavior of the Israeli population, and the policies of the Netanyahu government, both make me deeply ashamed to be Jewish.
Hamas has admitted that 50 out of the 62 killed were Hamas members. Hamas is a terrorist organization that wants to kill all the Jews of Israel. What are you ashamed of?
Then try another religion. Baal worship is open for newcomers.
Zionism and the State of Israel were built on the ethos of victimhood. Israel is not the victim.
You might as well ask male undergraduates how they feel about campus sexual assault: some will understand; some will be indifferent; some will rationalize rape. Effort is better spent putting people on notice about the immorality and illegality of the matter, not on surveying people's feelings. Anything that draws attention away from these heinous and criminal assassinations is a shande. And just as Americans are reflected in their government, so every Israeli is complicit here. Boycott. Divest. Sanction.
So now we learn that Hamas admits that 50 of the 62 killed on Monday were in fact Hamas militants, not innocent unarmed civilians. I wonder if the NYT will mention that. I also wonder if there is one reporter out there who will mention that any children killed were brought to the front lines of a chaotic protest deliberately in the hopes of getting killed in order to achieve maximum propaganda points. That is a war crime and the pro Palestinian apologists refuse to acknowledge that. And it is also insane to think that any child was killed deliberately as there is absolutely nothing to gain from that.
From light to all the nations to blight among its neighbors.
I understand that Israel has no one on the Palestinian side to negotiate with. That doesn't excuse the government's response to the protests. Or the settlement policy, or - closer to home - the abhorent sight of Kushner and his bride, representing the USA in Jerusalem.
Jealousy, envy. Leave the Kushners (i.e. the Jews) out of it. It is ridiculous for the President to appoint family as paid advisors, I agree. But, I've seen too many jabs at Jared to understand he is getting blamed, because he's Jewish.
I am just mystified at the language used in this article. After viewing this conflict from several different sources it seems quite clear this wasn't a "demonstration" - peaceful or otherwise-but a planned attempt to breach a border of a sovereign country. Any country would take the actions the Israelis did without hesitation for one simple reason: the people who were attempting the incursion were trying to do violence to the citizens of Israel. Sorry, I am not sure why there is not more reporting about how the Gazans planned all of this event. Let's stop the hand wringing. If someone were breaking into your house intending to violence, armed or not, you'd defend yourself.
By that same token Palestinians are right to open fire on any Israeli infiltrators who attempt to enter the West Bank right?
“The Arabs of Palestine underwent expulsion. Tens of millions of people throughout the entire world, including Jews, underwent similar expulsion. But only the Palestinians adopted an ethos of rejectionism, victimhood, suffering and death.”
Can't be said any better... the Palestinian leadership and its people must adopt a new mode of thinking... one of acceptance and reconciliation. Definitely a bitter pill to swallow but t's the only way forward to a lasting peace.
Overheard at many A.A. meetings... the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over again and expecting a different result.
The definition of insanity is to continue to do the same thing and expect a different outcome. Finally, we have an American president and an Israeli Prime minister with some actual guts. The hand ringing in this commentary section is sickening as is the New York Times coverage. Hamas is in the terrorism business and clearly there is no low too low for them to make sure they maintain their stranglehold on the Palestinian people. If just once the international community called their bluff and penalized them for not participating in the well being of their own people, maybe we would see some change. Even the rest of the Sunni Muslim world is waking up. But, unfortunately, it’s the same old, same old for the liberal West. Are they really that worried that Trump could have a success here, where decades of cajoling, and sniveling appeasement have failed.
Pretend this had been Birmingham AL in 1963,and MLK was leading a civil rights demonstration. Would your opinions be different than your opinions about the Gaza shootings?
The "authorities" in Alabama took pretty much the same view of demonstrators-"outside agitators",allegations of weapons,threat to life and property,etc.
(Skip the terrorism and "armed" demonstrators allegations from Israel,as well ignore Hamas' cynical and criminal manipulations of the protestors.)
Back in 1963 a large proportion of Americans were of the same opinion that Israelis hold now.
MLK engaged in actual non violence. He was about getting all people their rights. Hamas is the polar opposite: only uses violence, and is all about hate and denying others not only rights, but life itself.
I just love how the NY Times, and all these commentators, moralize and opine on everything Israel does to defend itself and protect its borders. Well, in our wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, as well as all the drone strikes in places like Somalia, Yemen, etc... we the USA have killed hundreds of thousands of civilians over the past 15 years, of course all accidentally as "collateral damage". But I do not recall any NY Times stories dealing in depth with how Americans were reflecting and feeling about the hundreds of thousands of civilians the US military has killed in our wars.
Today a Hamas official acknowledged that 50 of the dead at the border fence were Hamas members. Islamic Jihad admits that three of its members died. Will the New York Times report these admissions? It certainly changes the impression conveyed about the killing of "mostly unarmed Palestinians."
They were "unarmed Palectinians", so what is your point?
Hamas is a mass organization, so why wouldn't their members be on the front line? Your attempt to justify the deaths of unarmed demonstrators is an admission of your loss of conscience.
Bullets against , kits, knives and threats . Bully tactics, why not water canons? How about other non lethal weapons. As usual Israel abuses other countries and expects sympathetic press .
Hamas has admitted that over 50 of the 62 dead were Hamas members. Hamas is an organization whose sole goal is to destroy the Jewish State. They are anything but peaceful demonstrators and The New York Times repeatedly reports otherwise. Your journalistic objectivity certainly comes into question when you portray a situation through the lens and the propaganda of terrorists.
They didn't "admit." They boasted. Which means that you should take this with a lot of grains of salt. The Hamas commander who made this claim is most probably seeking to deflect blame on Hamas for inciting civilians into this lethal confrontation while building up his own organization's credibility as comprising brave and self-sacrificing martyrs. Both sides love this narrative.
I've yet to hear what Israel should have done instead. One commentator said they should wait until the border was breached and only then attack the Palestinians. So, wait until people wanting to overrun Israel and kill Israelis should be allowed to breach a country's border? Thousands of young Palestinian men attacking the towns that lay almost next to the border? You want to see more Paestinians killed? That would be the result. But Israelis would be murdered so I guess it would be ok.
Do you live surrounded by millions of people who want to destroy you?
You do recall that there were open borders with Israel and when Israel removed all Jews from Gaza, in a gesture of friendship Hamas lobbbed rockets into Israel. Thus the border.
Again, what is your solution?
The Birmingham and Selma Alabama police used water canons and dogs which seemed somewhat more effective than shooting children
Why don't I trust the "Times" to find Israeli a sufficient number of Israelis to express what those on the American left would assume is the correct reaction? Shame. "Times" coverage and commentary to date has been so lopsided in sympathizing WITH the Palestinian attempted invasion of Israel to carry out mass slaughter it beggars the imagination. Of course the Israelis are conflicted: no one enjoys a bloody spectacle -- but they know what the goal of this Hamas-led attempted incursion was. (Check Hamas' website.) It might succeed in infiltrating killers into Israel to knife and ax Israeli civilians to death or achieve an almost equally desirable goal, which, thanks to the "New York Times" and the "Washington Post" it did pull off: evoke sympathy for a terrorist organization and its frenzied followers. Why do I imagine it would have been easy to find Israelis who understandably don't want Palestinian mobs intent on killing them to cross the border -- and yet are anguished by the death toll. You make sure to find one person to serve as your accomplice in making Israelis look like monsters without empathy -- citing people who regarded winning the Eurovision Song Contest as the great event of the day. Having been to Israel many times I know you could easily have found others to express relief to have been spared attempts on their lives while bemoaning the need to take so much life. You had a political agenda in this article -- and you made the story match. Shameful.
They don’t care, plain to see. They are guided by blind hegemony and imperious religious entitlement. This is not a war by any meaningful measure though insasmuch as that this is a war, these are war crimes—a mass murder, a massacre. The global community speaking out is the only hope against further apartheid.
This just in: A Hamas official says in an interview that 50 of the Gazans killed in Monday’s clashes with Israeli troops were members of the terror group.
Salah Bardawil says of the “62 people martyred, 50 were Hamas.” Gaza’s Hamas-run health ministry earlier reported 60 Gazans were killed in the clashes.
The Hamas leader who said that was very possibly trying to deflect blame from Hamas's encouraging a protest that led to the deaths of scores of civilians. By claiming fifty martyrs he gets to disclaim Hamas's own responsibility in encouraging civilians to be confrontational and to make Hamas look like a courageous resistance. If the claim is true it will change the perspective. But the likelihood of its truth right now seems low.
I understand the situation the IDF faces, but saying "this is the greatest day in our history" with 50-60 dead civilians, well, at a minimum it's tone-deaf
It is too bad that only 52 of the 60 Gazans killed in the attempted invasion were Hamas members since it was their show all along.
Don't believe what Hamas leaders claim when they're trying to take credit and deflect blame. Or at least indicate that you're reporting an unverified and dubious claim.
"Mostly unarmed Palestinians"; that's an interesting qualifier. Terrorists hiding between unarmed meatshield is what Israeli have to deal with daily.
As I've said several times, a bottle of vodka is mostly water.
Palestinians, get this through your heads. Palestinians are never going to get a state on the West Bank. That ship has sailed. There are too many Jews now in Israel to make a mini-state for Jews viable.
The best that Palestinians can hope for is full Israeli citizenship, some degree of autonomy similar to what French Canadians have in Quebec, plus payment of Just Compensation to those who lost land or property due to Israel's creation by the UN, the representative of the World Community, as under the legal doctrine of Eminant Domain. Let us also recall that Israel was created by the UN to make recompense for what the Germans did.
As far as Gaza goes, the UN should immediately recognize Gaza as an independent state whether Gaza asks for it or it. Right now Gaza is not Israel, it's not Egypt. It's a big nothing.
There's your Palestinian state,,, Gaza.
To History, 70 years if nothing, a mere blink of the eye. Once, there was Roman Empire, a Greek Empire, a Persian Empire, a French Empire and British Empire, a Spanish Empire, even Dutch and Portugese Empires . Once what we now call the USA was a vast area with many indigenous tribes. So, Mike, nothing lasts; one day, things will be different and Israel won't exist. You can't fight everyone without going down.
Israel wasn't created by the U.N. It was and is the homeland of world Jewry from time immemorial, and since the Balfour Declaration was designated to be the modern Jewish state. Once the British left the Mandate, the state was formed. The U.N. confirmed, but the U.N. doesn't create countries. The Arab Palestinians could have had their own country simultaneously, but they rejected the General Assembly (suggestion, not legally binding) partition plan. That is long irrelevant. Gaza is Palestine. What will happen in the West bank remains to be seen. Dividing it up and working out border controls, a non military state for Palestinians, is excruciatingly hard work even when both sides want it peacefully.
Israelis turned "a big nothing" into cultivation of flowers and crops. They even left the greenhouses for the Palestinians who destroyed the greenhouses and returned the land to "a big nothing".
https://twitter.com/LTCJonathan/status/99674164205601996.8 Senior Hamas official sets the record straight on who was killed in last Hamas-orchestrated riots: "50 of the 62 martyrs were Hamas". This is a Palestinian video not Israeli.
This unlikely assertion would need confirmation.The Hamas leader who said that was very possibly trying to deflect blame from Hamas's encouraging a protest that led to the deaths of scores of civilians. By claiming fifty martyrs he gets to disclaim Hamas's own responsibility in encouraging civilians to be confrontational and to make Hamas look like a courageous resistance. If the claim is true it will change the perspective. But the likelihood of its truth right now seems low.
"Sorry, that page doesn’t exist!"
Even if it did, using twitter to validate a claim is about what you'd expect from apologists for a blood-thirsty pariah state.
The Trump WH and the GOP share blame in this horrible turn of events. People need to see that money played a part. Bibi now owns and operates our WH.
Hamas leader just said 50 out of 62 dead are members of the organization. Why isn't that mentioned? Totally changes the perspective.
And of the 1500 injured? How many were civilians? Probably many
Because the one Hamas leader who said that was very possibly trying to deflect blame from Hamas's encouraging a protest that led to the deaths of scores of civilians. By claiming fifty martyrs he gets to disclaim Hamas's own responsibility in encouraging civilians to be confrontational and to make Hamas look like a courageous resistance. If the claim is true it will change the perspective. But the likelihood of its truth right now seems low.
Why does that change the perspective? People armed with rocks and stones , shot from hundreds of yards away is still murder. I get that their political affiliation matters some, but slaughter is slaughter.
What's the casualty rate of Palestinians who didn't try to breach the border?
Apparently surprisingly high since according to reporting by The New Yorker many people were killed hundreds of yards away from the border.
It's sad that Hamas has chosen to encourage violence as a means of deflecting people's frustration with their rule of Gaza.
Israel will never win their aim of reductinc the conflict until they stop blasting mosquitos with cannon. If they want peace after this debacle they should offer medical assistance to the victims, most of whom were unarmed and, understandably from their historical point of view, upset at the loss of their access to holy sites. Israel must WANT this conflict. They should be ashamed of this over-the-top bloodshed and reexamine their strategies. If they don't change this sad conflict will only worsen, and they will be responsible for their enemies' desperation.
The frustration is with the Israeli oppression of the people... which makes them turn to Hamas..
What a disgusting day. The opening of the Jerusalem embassy by unelected family members that caused to escalate the desperation of Palestine. Murder is murder.
I used to support Israel as an indispensable ally and symbol of right action following the second world war.
But today it has squandered its image and heritage, and I hold it in contempt as an apartheid state. It is perpetrating upon the Palestinian people what has historically been visited upon Jews the world over, relegating them to a ghetto in Gaza. This is especially cruel coming from a people on whom such abuses have been visited for millennia.
"In the last round of confrontations, of 62 people martyred, 50 of them were Hamas” - Hamas spokesman (Salah Bardawil) in a television interview earlier today.
So, by Israel defending themselves against terrorists, it has "squandered its image and heritage"? Interesting thought.
Reportedly, there's a tendency for people who are abused when they are children and have no power to use their power to abuse when they grow up and have some.
I suggest that the NYT update this article to include the fact that Hamas has now confirmed that 53 of the 60 were members of its organization.
"Confirmed" = "claimed." Just as ISIS claims every attack is by a member of ISIS. Perhaps they were, but I suspect this is inflammatory propaganda, good for belligerents and rejectionists on both sides.
No, because it's not true.
Hamas...always a reliable source. Also, hasbera seems to be having difficulty getting their number straight:Was it 36 51, or 47? who knows,you guys all keep saying different things
I am Jewish and am disgusted by Israeli barbarism.
Even Hamas has stated that 50 of the 62 killed were Hamas members. Israel defending itself is barbaric? Do you recommend that, instead, they allow the Hamas members to cross into Israel? Do you expect them to bring flowers with them?
"I am Jewish and am disgusted by Israeli barbarism."
I'm Netherlands Reformed and I'm disgusted with "Palestinian" recalcitrance and savagery.
If 40,000 people throwing rocks tried to storm your house, with your family inside, would you just politely open the door?
There is no such thing as a disproportionate response to an existential threat. And yes, these "demonstrators" are, symbolically and practically, an existential threat. They elected a government hell bent on spilling Israeli blood.
This is terrible. And it is the fault of the Palestinians and their leadership. If you run at a professional army, you will get killed. They knew it, they did it. Their fault.
Any discussion about peace must start with the Palestinians renouncing violence and accept that there is a large democracy in their midst. Do that, and nobody else needs to die.
Any discussion of peace needs to start with an Israeli admission that Arabs by the millions were dispossessed of their homes, shops, and fields. Then a right of those Arabs and their heirs to return to those homes, shops, and fields can be effected. If that happens in a coherent state of Isleal, then those Arabs must be granted full citizenship. Then there can be peace. Or Likud can realize its true goal, which is to complete the stealing of land and annihilation of the people from whom they steal it. As every good Irishman knows, accepting a democracy in their midst that has stolen their land is not consistent with a discussion of peace
"Any discussion about peace must start with the Palestinians..."
Excellent job, Surgeon.
You have learned your Trump and your Bibi well, grasshopper.
"I am all for peace. I adore peace, and will sacrifice for peace. You first."
Hamas was originally supported covertly by Mossad as a counterweight To the more effective PLO. It would appear that that plan is working beautifully
The NY TImes' coverage of the demonstrations at the border continues to be unconscionably distorted. The rest of the world is condemning Israeli violence in the strongest possible terms, and articles here present the views of a handful of Israelis? Bring Declan Walsh to Israel and Palestine, fire Kershner for good please. No-one should rely solely on the NYT for their information on this particular issue.
If the NY Times concedes that Israel is entitled to defend its borders, then it would be admitting that the United States, likewise, is entitled to enforce its own borders.
Is Jerusalem a holy city?? The Israelis have turned it into a grotesque symbol of much of what is worst in humanity: greed, selfishness, prejudice... -- Under Israeli control the 'holy land' has become a place that segregates men rather than brings them together. -- Its laughable and pathetic that they use the Bible to justify such behavior.
East Jerusalem, the holy site, is under Jordanian control - Islamic. Direct your complaints there.
When is leadership of Hamas held to scrutiny. They perpetuate the suffering of their own people to stay in power. You never hear of an opposition to Hamas in Gaza because all dissenters are quickly and quietly lynched.
Hamas has announced that 50 of its fighters are among the dead. Islamic Jehud has announced that 3 of its fighters are among the dead. That means that at lest 53 of the 62 dead at the Gaza border were proud terrorists. Enough said.
Israeli officials said that only a few of those killed were armed. Was the IDF afraid that the "terrorists" would bite them?
Wonder why this was not included in the NY Times story? Oddly Hamas is not denying it, but proudly announcied it.
Ms. Erakat is articulate and should be speaking more often, but I'm sure she isn't given a platform too often.
If NYT hadn't covered for Israel for decades, by never telling us all the horrible things settlers and others do to Palestinians day and and day out, while IDF soldiers stand and watch, we would have had a 2 state solution long ago. But they only cover when "poor Israelis" are harmed. If you want real news, you watch Al Jazeera and read the Israeli papers.
I like to see the same happening in Mexico USA borders and I am very sure the USA reaction will be harsher and more killings.it is easy to be liberals and generous from four thousand miles when your life is not at risk
I dont blame the IDF at all for what happened. I believe in defending boundaries.
Which is why I support Palestinians snipers shooting at every Israeli who crosses the Green Line and "infiltrates" the West Bank. Looks like there are almost 1 million Israeli infiltrators right now.
I guess you didn't read about the Migrant Caravan that arrived at our border recently. No one was killed or harmed. How many migrants did European countries shoot with snipers? Zero. But thanks for reaching out from London to stand up for your people.
Deputize civilians to enforce the border. They'll clear it for years.
Shame on Israel. Blind to their own brutality and arrogance, seeking justification where there is none.
I visited Israel in the spring of 2000. A friend who worked for the UN was stationed in Jerusalem. After visiting both the territories, - seeing how Arabs lived in slums, even in Jerusalem, and Jews enjoyed fancy villas, - witnessing soldiers turn over a large cart of oranges pulled by a donkey, with an old man walking it just for the laugh, - listening to arrogant Israelis who had immigrated from Canada, at a party claiming "It's our land, all of it is ours, they have no rights to it" right in front of Palestinians who were also present,
I had zero respect left for Israel and its Jewish population. Youtube is littered with videos of abuse of Palestinians by soldiers and civilians alike.
Israel is morally corrupting Judaism, dooming both.
After more than five millennia surviving enemies, Judaism will not survive its own sins unless a clear majority of the Jews of the Diaspora loudly denounce Israeli crimes against humanity.
The most tragically ironic aspect of all this is that uber-Zionists within and without Israel are providing actual evidence to confirm many of the the most toxic anti-Semitic slanders.
Apparently for Jews, their very existence upon their own indigenous ground is considered by some a crime against humanity.
I am really disappointed that the NYT ran such an article justifying the killing and wounding of thousands of people by the Israeli military using bullets and rifles paid by us the American people. Ruthless and premediated sniper killing of protestors who posed no threat is a war crime. No amount of blaming the crazy Hamas justifies this. Israel stole the Palestinians land, and is now starving the West Bank residents and refuses to negotiate a peace treaty, and now shoots down people in cold blood. Shame on Israel; you betray your great nation and your cause. I like most other Americans oppose any military or other aid to a fascist government engaged in war crimes, and now it is Israel. There is an alternative and it is called peace and justice for Palestinians and Israelis.
How many actual Hamas fighters were harmed?
From the pictures and videos I've seen it appears that Iran-sponsored Hamas stupidly sent their mothers and women and children to the fence to invade Israel. So brave!
“The Arabs of Palestine underwent expulsion. Tens of millions of people throughout the entire world, including Jews, underwent similar expulsion. But only the Palestinians adopted an ethos of rejectionism, victimhood, suffering and death.”
An Israeli pundit telling the Palestinians, basically, to "get over it".
That these words emanate from a culture which, eighty years after the fact, still invokes the Holocaust at every opportunity, reflects a lack of self-examination. The absence of reflection is quite predictable in a society which engages in an on-going, illegal, merciless oppression of the Palestinians.
The expulsion of the Jews was resolved via the expulsion of the Palestinians, a fact that makes the above statement even more reprehensible.
This from a man who lives on land from which the Muwkma Ohlone people were displaced.
This from a man who is living on land from which the Muwekma Ohlone people were displaced. Any reflections, Ed?
No, Ed. It comes from a culture that revived itself after genocide. It comes from all those Holocaust survivors who made good lives for themselves where ever they landed after the Holocaust. It comes from a culture that isn't trying to turn the clock back to 1947 or even 1917 (like the Palestinians are). It comes from a country with millions of people who were once refugees or fled countries of discrimination against them, and made a better life for themselves instead of wallowing in the past. And hundreds of thousands of those refugees in Israel were people forced out of Arab countries. It's really simple, Ed. The Palestinians refused partition in 48 and made war. They lost, and for 70 years have refused to get on with their lives. And the Arab countries have made sure they stay permanently with the status of refugee, just to make it hard for them.
in 1948, seven Arab countries attacked the 1 day old Israel. Had they won, no Jew would be left alive. Jews had to flee Jerusalem (no one ever talks about that!) and Jerusalem was then razed by the Jordanians. Nineteen years went by, and no Palestinian state was established, no development occurred in the West Bank or Gaza, nada.
Meanwhile, in all the Arab countries, the governments and the populace pounced on, rioted, killed and expelled ALL the Jews (who had done nothing to them), thus making the Middle East Judenrein. Except for Israel and 20,000 remaining in Iran. There were 800,000 Jewish refugees, fleeing for their lives. No one ever talks about these refugees.
Fast forward 70 years. The Jewish refugees (expelled for no fault of their own) endured many hardships, but went on with their lives. Their millions of descendants are living normal productive lives, half in Israel, half in other countries.
The Arab refugees, OTOH, an unfortunate result of a war started by Arabs, which was intended to annihilate the Jews, have been purposefully left by their Arab brethren to fester in refugees camps, 4 generations now. They're denied citizenship in all Arab countries, denied the ability to pursue many occupations, and also denied the right to immigrate to Western countries. Their leaders are terrorist thugs (both the PLO and Hamas), billionaires, Jew haters, who make money while keeping their people stuck chasing via terror the old dream of "kill the Jews". Solve THAT.
Another comment stated: "Israel stole the Palestinians' land ...". Doesn't this fact need to be addressed before any other blame can be apportioned? I'm asking ...
My belief is when a Jewish state was declared, the theft of land became formalized. My belief is also that, had such a state NOT been declared, and instead Palestine/Israel been a free land for all people, it could have become a thriving community and country.
We should definitely continue to hold millions of people in an open air prison with limited access to food and medical care because of what some governments did 70 years ago? No. This is totally unacceptable and I cannot understand how anyone can justify this senseless, disgusting behavior.
Hmm...Let's come back to a region of the world that belonged to the Palestinians for 2000 years and claim it for ourselves with the help of the US support, lock the Palestinians living in Gaza for 10 years, limit their access to the rest of the world, their friends and family on the other side of Israel, limit their access to basic human resources and rights, and then shoot them when they protest. Oh, and THEN reflect on how we feel about the whole situation. What kind of journalism is this?
Shujana: Here are FACTS: 1. Israel became a nation in 1312 B.C.E., two thousand years before the rise of Islam. 2. Arab refugees began identifying themselves as part of a Palestinian people in 1967, two decades after the establishment of the modern State of Israel. 3. Since the Jewish conquest in 1272 B.C.E, the Jews had dominion over the land for one thousand years with a continuous presence in the land for the past 3,300 years. 4.The only Arab domination since the conquest in 635 C.E. lasted no more than 22 years. 5. For over 3,300 years, Jerusalem has been the Jewish capital. Jerusalem has never been the capital of any Arab or Muslim entity. Even when the Jordanians occupied Jerusalem, they never sought to make it their capital, and Arab leaders did not come to visit. 6. Jerusalem is mentioned over 700 hundred times in Bible. Jerusalem is not mentioned once in the Koran. 7. King David founded the city of Jerusalem. Mohammed never came to Jerusalem. 8. Jews pray facing Jerusalem. Muslims pray with their backs toward Jerusalem. 9. Arab and Jewish refugees: Arabs were not driven out of their homes. Following the UN decision on Partition in 1948, the Arab refugees were encouraged to leave Israel by Arab leaders, promising to purge the land of Jews. They argued that an "Arab presence" would only get in the way of the planned devastation. Sixty-eight percent left without ever seeing an Israeli soldier. 10. The Jewish refugees were forced to flee from Arab lands due to persecuti
//Hmm...Let's come back to a region of the world that belonged to the Palestinians for 2000 years//
As pointed out, this is fictional. What's more, the division between mulk and miri land was heavily, heavily shifted towards mulk. The supermajority of Arabs in the region who would later come to thought of as Palestinians (by ethnicity rather than geography), were tenants, not owners, of the land in any case.
// and claim it for ourselves with the help of the US support//
More fiction. Israel was founded without any real support from any external nation, and it wasn't until '67 that the US truly supported Israel, and even then only as a counterweight for the Soveits.
//lock the Palestinians living in Gaza for 10 years//
Funny... could've sworn that Gaza borders Egypt, too. I wonder why they don't have an open border with the Palestinians?
//and then shoot them when they protest. //
Peaceful Palestinian protesters aren't being shot. Those taking part in an organized invasion of another country, however, are putting themselves at risk.
//What kind of journalism is this?//
Obviously not one based on the non-facts you've built your narrative around.
The evidence is that Israel did not apply the Geneva convention which states that locals have to be protected by the occupying army. It's very convenient for Israel to claim that they did not sign this agreement (as is also the case of the non proliferation treaty). And so the strong can define its own rules and forget about standards of humanity and justice.
Hamas admits that 50 of the 60 dead are its militants. Terrorists used civilians as human shields and attempted to broach a border to slaughter Israeli citizens. The IDF performed admirably in killing terrorists and minimizing harm to their human shields. Alas, too much of the media gives Hamas a secondary PR victory by refusing to call out their terrorism. Doing so makes good copy, I guess.
Please supply link supporting your “50 of the 60 killed were. Hamas militants. Thank you, I know you’ll get right on it
There is never going to be peace between Israelis and Gazans so long as serious and honest reflection about events such as the fatalities resulting from the violent Gazan border protests earlier this week is engaged in solely by Israelis and not by those who live on the other side of the security fence.
Israel has no vision. There is no long term strategy, only short sighted aggression. Each death hardens people's hearts and minds. An 8 month old baby died after inhaling tear gas. I have a baby, if this happened to me I would see red for the rest of my life, especially if I saw it happening around me continually for years. Multiply that by generations of people on both sides. This is the epitome of unsustainable. It's like watching a couple strangle each other.
What would we call parents in the US who bring their 8 month old baby to a march on an enemy border, where the baby might be exposed to tear gas and live ammunition fire?
This isn't "desperation" any more than desperation was what motivated kamikaze pilots during WWII. This is a culture in which martyrdom is celebrated and rewarded; even the "moderate" Palestinian Authority which rules the West Bank provides pensions to the families of persons who die when they carry out suicide bombings.
Would you bring an eight-month old baby to a protest in a military zone where people throw rocks and burn tires, and there’s known to be tear gas, bullets? The fault is with the people who did.
The word coming out now is that the 8 month old baby had a serious health condition that was aggravated by the tear gas. That makes the parents even more irresponsible than previously thought.
This was not a peaceful demonstration.
Many people believe that "unarmed" means no weapon at all, but in fact the Gazans threw rocks, Molotov Cocktails, etc., and sent flaming kites to burn Israeli crops. Many stormed the border fence to get into Israel.
Most front-line Israeli soldiers are young people. I am sure they did not relish shooting at Gazans.
However, the Gazans instigated this violence with violence of their own, which many people want to pretend didn't happen.
Meanwhile Hamas got exactly what it wanted, though at the cost of a lot of human suffering. The payoff is the increased negative view of Israel, which in fact is defending its border as it has every right to do.
A Palestinian who travels half a mile to a demonstration is a trouble maker. An American who travels thousands of miles to a settlement is a noble innocent.
What's with the NYTs parroting the Israeli claim that their armed Palestinians in the crowd? This was purely a massacre of an unarmed crowd protesting Trump's shameless recognizing the Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. Chuck Schumer's clueless remark that Israel should be able to have its capital anywhere in Israel. The settler gov't of Netanyahu with Trump, in the name of the US gov't, to just take the city without making any effort for an agreement with the Palestinians. The Palestinians don't have the US news media and the US gov't to make their lies smell like roses like the Netanyahu gov't has.
Hamas claims 50 fighters among the 62 dead. Islamic Jihad claims 3. Some died in a firefight. Always check the latest news before you comment on a Times piece and you can avoid yourself this kind of embarrassment. if you Google but I say above, you will see that it has been reported in both be Arab and Israeli press. There is also translated video.
The NYT may not bother to report this, but maybe this reader should take a stock of and should also parrot it to himself what a Hamas official acknowledged to a local Palestinian TV outlet - that 50 of those killed were card carrying Hamas members. As such they were representing an organization dedicated and to the destruction of Israel!. Some innocent demonstrators!
Throwing stones, planting bombs, burning tires, trying to breach the border of a sovereign country - that’s what you consider “unarmed” innocent peaceful protesters? Sorry, but that’s kinda delusional. What if they showed up at your house doing that, with your family inside?
Of course this squarely conflicts with the agenda of the NYT. So, of course, the NYT won't report it.
Let's face it. Hamas won. Thanks to Western news media like the NYT.
Ivanka’s dress?? She should be in sack cloth or better yet, no there. Shame on the shameless
The constant focus on demonizing Israel by the NYT is disturbing. Why not place blame on the US congressmen and senators who voted to move the embassy to Jerusalem in 1995? All president Trump did was to honor a congressional mandate. There wouldn't be any deaths, in Gaza, if Hamas terrorists and hate filled Gazans didn't mob the Israeli border. They want a one state solution, with Israel wiped off the map. NYT reporters do little to cover up their one sided reporting.
The Chosen People can do no wrong, as God is on their side.
Is there any wonder why religion is the curse of the human race, esp. those religions with strict doctrines such as the Orthodox Jews now in power in Israel?
if there is a god, perhaps his/her justice will prevail and right all these wrongs against the Palestinians.
The Orthodox are not in power in Israel, though they are part of the ruling coalition. Hardly anyone in Israel believes that Chosen People nonsense.
Actually, the Chosen People do plenty wrong. That is why a full 10-day period between Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur is dedicated to repentance.
However, now that Hamas has admitted the lion's share of those killed were terrorists - it is clear their actions were justified.
So why not direct your attention to the 'Orthodox' Muslims who have perpetrated the wrongs against the Palestinians?
Israel has already made peace with Egypt and Jordan - giving up about half its land mass in the process. It has offered 97% of the West Bank and has already left Gaza. What are the Palestinians holding out for?
If the Arabs had accepted the UN Partition Plan in 1947, they would be dancing today as well, maybe even studying and winning Nobel Prizes instead of flying fire bombs. Palestinians dance when Israelis are murdered.
The kindling had already been smoldering for decades, then Trump added a very large, very flammable timber to the fire of discontent by fulfilling his uninformed campaign promise to move the U.S. Embassy in Israel to Jerusalem. Any idiot could have predicted the outcome. It took a profound idiot to make it happen.
Under Netenyahu Israel , which once could claim the mantel to the highest moral ground on earth, is now just another wanna be bully flexing it’s overbuilt up muscles. Too bad, they have lots of brains there going to waste.
I think the NYT needs to appoint a psychologist in evaluating comments.. Aside from the usual anti-Israel rantings, few if any of which actually state anything of substance (no, calling it apartheid is false/phony), there are the alleged (who knows) Jewish responders claiming to be ashamed, embarrassed to be Jewish. Now, now, calm down. 1. First, ask yourselves, what would you rather be (think hard) and 2. Isn't that feeding into the anti-Semitic claim that "all Jews" are to be blamed for anything Israel does/says. Who will take the "blame" for all their hi-tech and medical innovations, for the thousands (no exaggeration) of Syrians they aided medically over the last 6+ years, for absorbing a greater number of Jewish refugees from Arab lands, having to flee for their lives in 1948 onwards? For the Ethiopian Jews who suffered but now are Israel? etc. I, and many others, am/are not ashamed. And thank G-d for assisting us.
A Hamas official has now acknowledged that 50 of the Palestinians alleged to have been killed during the border riots on Monday and Tuesday were members of Hamas. In an interview with the Palestinian Baladna news outlet, Dr. Salah Bardawil said: "In the last rounds of confrontations, if 62 people were martyred, 50 of them were Hamas”. An excerpt from the interview is available on YouTube at: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-XCxLJi7po
According to Islamic Jihad, three members of its Saraya al-Quds military wing were killed.
All the attention is about current Hamas action vs. IDF action. And so of course Israeli's can in that way excuse the murder. Left unspoken is the desperation of Palestinian non ethnic Jews from the relentless cruelty. Advocates of Israeli like to cite history such as America getting away with stealing much of Mexico. America does in fact have a long history of atrocities. Maybe America and Israel will continue forever these notions of success. 1.6 million Muslims will forever breed desperate counter actions around the World until America and Israel implode to decency. Jews had no interest for millennia in Ottoman welcome to live in Palestine. Incompetent imperialist Americans enabled the Mid Eastern ghetto created by the secular proponents of a "Chosen People" who reject Reform and Assimilated Judaism in favor of reviving primitive Bible ethos. I hope and suspect that young American Jews and non-Jews everywhere are disgusted. I grew up as part of American Jewish universal tikkun olam. Hopefully sooner or later young people will reject Joshua's slaughter of Canaanites.
These were NOT peaceful demonstrators. They were armed, some with guns, others with grenades and Molotov cocktails. Stones can kill you incidentally; would any of you decrying the use of force like to be attacked by a mob throwing stones at you? This was NOT a peaceful March singing Kumbaya. The stated intent of Hamas, which organized this “event” was to destroy the border fence, enter Israel and take it over. Why do so many of you cling to some notion of peaceful people just singing songs?
Hamas incidentally has claimed 50 of the dead yesterday as Hamas operatives including 8 killed in a gun battle; so much for Kumbaya. Islamic Jihad has claimed another 3. Those that died were asking to be “martyred”; they were not innocents. So sad so many of you choose to believe the lies disseminated by Hamas. Trust me; they’d kill you too if they could.
And today, more of the truth comes out: Hamas admits, in Arabic on Palestinian media, that 50 of those killed Monday were Hamas operatives. So not "unarmed peaceful protesters". Not to mention how dozens of those 60 were killed when firing on Israeli soldier and employing explosives. https://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-official-50-of-the-people-killed-in-...
“There was a Nakba,” he wrote in Tuesday’s paper, using the Arabic term for the “catastrophe” of the formation of Israel and the loss of Palestinians’ homes. “The Arabs of Palestine underwent expulsion. Tens of millions of people throughout the entire world, including Jews, underwent similar expulsion. But only the Palestinians adopted an ethos of rejectionism, victimhood, suffering and death.”
Only the Palestinians adopted an ethos of rejectionism, victimhood... seriously?
Restraint = 60 dead No Restraint = several times 60?
Unbelievable attempt at spin! How can these people live with themselves?
When tens of thousands are rushing to breach your country's border and murder your populace, then 60 IS restraint.
Hello Jim D:
A hamas spokesperson has verified that 50 of the 62 dead were their own terrorist operatives. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I can live with myself. I am repulsed and infuriated when people choose to become terrorists. Terrorists deserve what they get, because what they set out to do is to terrorize and murder innocent people. And if 50 of the 62 dead were TERRORISTS, then the other 12 died because of them.
Thoughtful reflection by Israelis? Thoughts and prayers with the Palestinians? Israel hasn’t seriously thought about its future in a long time. If ever.
Hamas claims that 50 of the 62 casualties were their operatives. So why are we talking about unarmed innocent civilians?
"Hamas claims that 50 of the 62 casualties were their operatives. So why are we talking about unarmed innocent civilians?" ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Yes, WHY????? Because people have their own agendas, even if those agendas are mired in lies and deceit. And also because anti-Semitism is omnipresent. Those are the only 2 reasons I can think of at the moment.
Israel, like the United States, is a divided society. About 60 per cent fear and hate Palestinians and think they are less than human. They will find it hard to learn to live peacefully with them and to resolve disputes fairly. About 40 per cent, mostly the college educated, see them as people like themselves, human beings, and hope to live in peace with them. Strong and moral political leadership would facilitate this outcome. However, it is lacking.
You get such statistics from where...
Diogenes:
Morality and INTEGRITY being EVERYTHING. But you are dealing with hamas, netanyahu, and trump...not much morality and integrity anywhere in that bunch.
Tragically, the birth rate among Palestinians is three times that of Israelis. So the problems in Gaza will just get worse and life there will be worth less. That is the tragedy. This is just the latest chapter. The problem gets worse all the time.
The only solution is improvement in the education and standard of living for Palestinians, and especially for women's rights, education, and support under Islam.
That is not going to happen. So the size of the tragedy and the amount of fallout from the eventual collapse grows larger each year.
Indeed, with the exception of the Balkan wars, nearly all conflicts in the world since the 90s have been in countries with very high birth rates. This issue has been and continues to be ignored by the local populations as well as international organizations.
Ultra Orthodox rates are just as high if not higher, and now the rates among the two religious groups are equal.
Palestinian babies are not a tragedy.
I spend a lot of time with Israelis, in Israel and abroad. There is a minority who are deeply troubled by what is happening in Israel and pained by the knowledge that Israeli fences in a vast population of mostly innocent people for generations in order to survive. Some of them speak out courageously after events like this.
But I am sad to say that most Israelis are indeed blase about the suffering of Palestinians. Their own lives are busy and good and they don't want to be bothered by the pain of others or constrained by high principles. They see the world in black and white terms - those who are for them and against them - and they have no sympathy for those who they see as against them. They have been taught to do anything necessary to survive, and I rarely get a sense of any limits on what they would do if necessary.
The generation who founded Israel had a sense of ethics and faith that is largely missing among Israelis under 50 today. There are still vestiges of these in Israeli institutions - the courts and even the Defense Force. But as a people, Israelis have grown materialistic, smug, and hardened to the suffering of others, epitomized in the person they've elected as PM.
A beautiful, promising country, but Israelis seem to have lost their soul in the process of building and defending it. I worry that seeds of unspeakable suffering for their children and grandchildren, and very possibly the whole world are being planted day by day.
And what would you like the Israeli's to do? Perhaps yell "death to all Palestinians," or just give them the entire state of Israel?
send them to Sweden
With a couple of exceptions, I notice the exact same thing as ChadiB describes, in the middle-class and upper-class Israelis that I know. It is, frankly, sickening to me and my husband every time we speak to them about Israeli politics. They're mired in the lies that they repeat to themselves to justify their callousness. It's like they inhabit a bubble in which they cannot reason. Lately, they've been sounding like it would also be perfectly fine with them if we blew the Iranian population to death. And let me play my card here...I'm a Jew, and for me that will always mean that a truthful history matters.
This is a challenging issue. Israel must realize they are not David but Goliath in this conflict. If there is going to be peace and a 2 state solution it must come from them. Some may disagree or that Israel has done enough, but the reality is Israel holds all the power and the cards.
Charles, and if hamas does not want peace, but has said that their intention is the destruction of the state of Israel, and the annihilation of the Jewish people...????? How, then, does Israel hold all the power, and all the cards? When you are dealing with murderous lunatics and fanatics like hamas...? I am afraid that Israel cannot fix or change murderers and criminals like hamas. hamas would sacrifice every single Palestinian, including children, to destroy Israel and kill Jews. hamas is the Palestinian "leadership." They do not give a dman about their people. We all have our crosses to bear: We have trump and the gop, Israel has netanyahu, and the Palestinians have hamas. Unless we get rid of all these villains, there will never be peace. There will never be anything good. And: Israel HAS DONE ENOUGH. Everything that Israel has done in the efforts of peace has been crushed by hamas and their ilk. They do not want peace; they want to destroy Israel, kill the Jewish people, and completely move in, and take over.
What was shown on the BBC coverage does not jibe with the portrayal of armed protesters. All I saw were protesters with rocks not guns. We can blame Trump and Netanyahu for the murders and injuries that happened. Trump has instigated more violence that could have been avoided. I wonder what kind of a deal he got from Netanyahu to move the American Embassy.
$$$, what else? or a hotel or two for Ivanka, and the rest of the crew to play with, or another way to launder criminal funds.
What you saw on the BBC? Does that mean that's a complete picture? Britain has been anti-Israel for decades. And let's not even begin to speak about Britain's anti-Semitism. My friend, who is Jewish and has a Jewish last name, was verbally attacked at a gathering in London by supposedly hip, artistic, forward thinking Brits. And that was 10 years ago.
Jean: The invaders were armed with rocks, knives, clubs, pipe bombs, and Molotov cocktails. Their intention was to kill as many Israelis as possible, and if they could, also abduct some to be held for ransom. These invaders were incited and encouraged by hamas to do this; 50 of the dead were identified by a hAMAS spokesperson as members of the terrorist group. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ trump is a criminal, an imbecile, a traitor, a liar, and a greed-and-sex driven lout. I don't know quite what netanyahu is...but whatever it is, it is not good.
There is indeed a problem, an ongoing problem, with imbalanced use of force by the Israeli military, and a (very defensive and racist) lack of empathy among the Israeli population. However, it's important to emphasize strongly here the cynicism of the Hamas leadership. They have incited this action, knowing the likely consequences because the Israeli authorities absolutely would not tolerate a breach of the fence. The Hamas leaders are creating a category of "suicide protestors", not people with bombs (and they shouldn't be put in that category), but people provoking their own possible violent deaths (and because they were in a crowd, and many of them were of an age where people exaggerate their own ability to survive, most of them surely assumed that, after all, they'd live--and most of them did live). While the Hamas leadership certainly has multiple goals with this tactic, there are good reasons to think that mainly it's a way of diverting attention from Hamas' inability to delivery anything positive to the Gazan population. And the casualties are likely to be an effective way to upset people in Gaza in a way that will make them that much less likely to support the sort of negotiations with other factions that would give the Palestinians the strongest hope of being able to pressure the Israeli government into real negotiations (probably only with a post-Netanyahu government).
Palestinian culture in both Gaza and the West Bank celebrates martyrdom. They say they are stronger than Israelis because whereas Jews want to live, the Palestinians are not afraid of death. This is their indoctrination, along with preaching hatred of Jews to the youngest members of their society. While Hamas provides very well for its leaders and their families, it deliberately keeps their masses mired in a destitution of their own making. This provocation at the border, and at the Kerem Crossing where Israel transmits fuel, electricity, and food and humanitarian goods to the Gazans, is a cynical public relations stunt, same as their previous wars against Israel.
Let's the real facts straight. Who was the first one to instigate chaos and a reaction to a peaceful protest of Palestinians 700 yards from the Palestinian border. Why was a protest which included women and children? Even the toothless tiger, Hamas was supporting the peaceful protests. Creating a provocation, creating a muddled scenario so that real facts on the ground cannot be discerned has become Israel's MO to mow down Palestinians. Even if Israel was retaliating to the stones and silly rockets going nowhere, Israel response cannot justify the sheer superior power and force of Isreal's army.The Israeli State and politicians have even lied to their own citizens confusing them into doubting their own consciences. Shame on Israel. Raising the specter of the Holocaust for all their inhumane treatment of Palestinians is sullying and insulting the memories of those who died and suffered. As for the other usual reason, Israel's safety ?That is beyond any reasoning or belief when they have artillery, planes, bombs and nuclear capability so sophisticated they are not even second to us.
There are good insights here. Clearly, Hamas should never have even been allowed to field candidates for office or hold office.
I am no expert on managing the defense of a border, but I am not prepared to agree that live fire cannot be used against unarmed civilians when those civilians are cooperating with armed militants. What constitutes reasonable defensive force relates to the total threat at the moment from the perspective of the person subject to attack.
Is anyone surprised by this? Israel hasn't merely drifted to the extreme right - they built an expressway to get there as fast as possible. The only thing that ever kept them in check was the USA, and with the Republicans in complete control of the US government, they have a free hand to be as brutal as they like. And they like it a lot.
Everyman: Please comment on the role of hamas, hezbollah, and the plo, and what their philosophy and policies have done to help or harm the Palestinians. In truth, it is not Israel that is the enemy of the Palestinians. Israel has many times tried to broker peace, but the Palestinian LEADERSHIP has rejected any and all solutions, and has instead called for the destruction of Israel, and the annihilation of the Jewish people. And just WHO is that leadership????? Lo and behold: hamas, and their ilk! I detest trump and the gop, and I do not like Netanyahu, but let us put the blame for this brutality squarely where it lies.
As an American Jew who was born before Israel was founded and who grew up to admire it and watch it flourish, I confess that my faith in it has evaporated. Under Netanyahu's leadership, the nation from where I sit in New York seems to have been fatally corrupted. The PM's aberrant partnering with Trump, a hollow, venal man whose ignorance of history, diplomacy, race and, indeed, humanity, simply staggers the mind and vividly underscores the desperate and immoral path Israel has chosen. And to hear American rabbis, on the one hand, praise the deliberately inflammatory move of an embassy by an unschooled president and, on the other, lament the loss of life at the hands of Israeli solders is deeply offensive to me and to Judaism itself.
While I am not Jewish, I have the utmost respect for you and people like you who have only the betterment of all mankind in your heart,
And while I AM Jewish, I have zero respect for you and your armchair quarterbacking from the safety of the United States.
I was at the border fence several years ago. There was a greenfield stretching several hundred yards in Gaza. The Israelis who took me to the fence said that they use to go to Gaza and buy vegetables. ll that cahnged with Hmas. Very sad.
So the Gazans did nothing now for several years, that is they were peaceful, but what have the Israelis done. Nothing but take more land and block attempts to improve the Palestinians environment.
I’m not sure if you are aware but much of the land on the Gazan side of the border adjacent to the border fence is under extreme restrictions to use by the Israelis. The NyTimes has a great illustration that you should look up, which may illuminate you as to why the Palestinians haven’t fully utilized this land.
The Palestinians believe they are right, they feel hopeless and helpless, and want freedom to cross the fence and have a future.
The Israelis believe they are right, they feel threatened, and want to protect their citizens from the threat of a mass incursion.
Both sides feel completely justified in their actions, there's no middle ground and no apparent solution in sight, and that's the Nakba or catastrophe of the situation.
@Jon:
In 2006, the Palestinians elected Hamas, a terrorist organization that brags about bombing family restaurants such as Sbarro in Jerusalem to lead them. A civil war with the other party, Fatah, ensued killing many Palestinians.
Hamas has not permitted elections were supposed to have occurred in 2010, almost a decade ago.
Egypt closed its border with Gaza because terrorists from Gaza were killing Egyptian soldiers in Sinai.
By electing Hamas, the Palestinians including Hamas have only themselves to blame.
Until there are new elections that elect leadership that are interested in peace, there is nothing Israeli or any other country in the US can do.
And the ׳punchline’ is not funny.
Both sides are right and both sides are wrong! King Solomon is nowhere to be found.
Both sides are Semites. Both sides have similar language.
It is time to realize that you are long lost closings and treat each other with love and respect.
Any comments by our esteemed members of Congress on the last disproportionate show of force used by our special friends in the Middle East against people living in the occupied Gaza protesting the unlivable conditions they are living under because of the United States policy in the Middle East?
Any mild rebukes, suggestions of restraint, not even a "it's not helpful for peace" canned response? Hello........???????
Putin owns the Whited House; Netayahu owns the Capitol Building.
None, they all have their hands out for more money.
I am really surprised by how surprised people are that congress did not condemn the murder of Palestinian protesters. The pro-Israel lobby controls congress and US foreign policy in the Middle East. Criticising Israel is political suicide and so is siding up with the Palestinians.
Boy have I changed my opinion on Israel. I once had such admiration for them and the way they built this incredible country from nothing. But over the past few years, with their hard and merciless turn to the right, they certainly have lost my sympathy.
Joanna Stelling -
Hamas has admitted that 50 of the 62 fatalities were Hamas members. Perhaps you should ask yourself whether that's the result of mercilessness or of an extremely successful effort at avoiding civilian casualties in the midst of planned chaos. I have to admire Israel for this.
Plus, there really was no reason to move the Embassy. It was done simply to score a petty political point. What was wrong with it in Tel Aviv. The Israelis built it out of a swamp with their bare hands. Why poke the bear? Basically its going to spiral out of control until people on each side get tired of killing. Look at Northern Ireland, as some point the two sides have to come together and neither will get exactly what they want.
Israel turned Gaza over to the Palestinians, and see what happened. Instead of Gazans flourishing in their own country, Gaza became a hotbed of propaganda and terror against Israel.
By the way, the "demonstrations" were carried out precisely to pander to people like you. The more bodies, the more sympathy, the more power and funding to Hamas. Since it works so well they will continue to use the poor Gazans as cannon fodder. Hold yourself responsible.
It is telling, though what it is telling I don't know, that there are no comments. Has it all been said, now?
This story makes my stomach hurt, and that is my comment.
The online lead to this article describes Israelis as "defiant, defensive or blasé". Where exactly is the "sorrow" identified by the online headline?
Per The Onion, I would imagine the sorrow is over the damage to the border fence.
Yes indeed, where's the sorrow? In Ivanka's jubilant smile? Or Netanyahu's conqueror's
stance?
For outside parties (US, UK et al) to establish a new country in that area after more than a half century of their meddling in Middle Eastern affairs may have solved one problem (refugees from central and eastern Europe) but created another (refugees in the Middle East). For the US to tip the balance of power in the region with huge infusions of aid, much of it military, was bound to inflame even further and guarantee no permanent solution would be found. Add into the mix that Israel is based on religious identity and you have thrown gasoline on the fire and lit a match. How would we feel if Syria decided to take over part of Ohio or all of Riverside County in California and declare it a Muslim state for Syrian refugees? No fiction or "right of return" to cover over the forced land grab, but still an imposition of a solution from the outside without consent of those most affected.
The Zionist movement grew out of a legitimate nationalist movement, of a people scattered for two millenia returning to our homeland. As much as anyone may wish it were not true, Jews are an ethnicity as well as a religious group, with common ancestry (and there's DNA evidence to support that), a common language, common customs, a common religion (for the most part; Orthodox and Reform Judaism a very different theologies) and a nationalist sense of community, reinforced by the simple fact that the world will not let any of us forget that we were born Jews and remain Jews in the eyes of the world. Consider this: the world still considers Karl Marx, Felix Mendelssohn and Benjamin D'Israeli Jewish despite that they were all baptised Christians.
The Arab League expelled Jews from their countries, or allowed anti-Jewish violence to chase them out, flooding Israel with 850,000 refugees. They were all absorbed by the Jewish state. The Arab world CHOSE to allow 600,000 Arab refugees from the British Mandate to languish as refugees with only Jordan allowing them to become citizens.
While the world may choose to consider Israel a "colonial outpost", the reality is that virtually all Jews have their origins in the MIddle Ease and close to Half of Jewish Israeli belonging to families who came there from Arabic countries so they did not have to remain third-class citizens depending upon the kindness of strangers.
Israel says at least 24 of 60 Gazans reported killed at border were terrorists.
Hamas is reportedly turning back trucks from Israel with medical supplies.
Source: timesofisrael.com (English).
The problems that the Gazans have is that they voted for Hamas to rule them in 2006. Hamas is a terrorist organization that brags about terrorist attacks of family restaurants such as Sbarro in Jerusalem. A civil war with Fatah ensued killing far, far more Palestinians than killed at the border wall. Hamas has not permitted new elections that were supposed to have nearly a decade ago in 2010. Hamas, unlike Fatah, refuses to recognize Israel, thus making peace an impossibility.
Egypt has closed their border with Gaza because terrorists from Gaza have killed Egyptian soldiers in Sinai.
The Gazans (and their brethren in The West Bank) are suffering from poor leadership. If only they would sign a peace agreement, their economic well-being would markedly improve. Israel is one of the most advanced economies on the planet, just two places below Japan on the Human Development Index.
With appropriate leadership, the Palestinians should have been benefiting from being next door to this powerful economy, unfortunately not much can be done until there are new elections with leaders that wish to improve the economic well-being of their citizens.
You have Palestinians that want Israel destroyed, an ego maniac incompetent demagogue like Trump and a despot like the leader of Israel.
Yet, the above are not the direct cause of the tragedy.
The citizens of all three countries are, electing incompetent leaders.
The position of the Israeli leader should have been, we view Jerusalem as our capital but will hold off on it till a final accord is met. The leader of the USA should have agreed to the policy and the Palestinians should not have rioted.
IMHO, it's ironic that there was no Hamas until Israel invaded Lebanon to end PLO raids into Israel from there. With U.S. help, the PLO was removed to Tunisia, ending its contact with Palestinians in the occupied territories; Hamas was created to fill the void. There are signs that Hamas itself is mellowing; it's possible it will be supplanted by its most rabid activists. Arguably, some sort of political dialogue between the U.S. and Hamas could mitigate that prospect.
"“The only alternative would have been, in that case, to mow them down one and all,”"
Perhaps that would save lives in the long run. By illustrating how futile it is to run at professional soldiers.
The article mentions, in passing and towards the end, that a substantial number of Hamas terrorists were using the civilians as human shields in an attack. That's not surprising but should have been the lede of this article and countless others like it.
I'm unaware of any journalists asking why the citizens of Gaza don't attempt to force their way through the Rafah border crossing with their Egyptian neighbors. Perhaps it's with the knowledge that Egypt like Syria would certainly not tolerate the kind of rioting encouraged by Hamas and managed by Israel in a relatively humane way. How many Syrians have died in a protest that truly started without violence unlike the rioting promoted by Hamas. The Israelis have been forced to kill by the each whereas their neighbors don't seem to blink at killing by the thousands.
The Hamas just admitted that 50 of the casualties were members of the Hamas. People in Europe and the US do not understand that by strongly supporting the Hamas they are backing up their position of an Islamic country over the whole of Israel. This backup only postpones a two country peacful solution and strengthens the right wing in Israel for obvious reasons.
So, being a member of Hamas is now a capital offense?
I grew up in a Jewish family that strongly supported Zionism. I remember the button proudly worn by my Great Aunt. I remember the commemorative medallion my grandfather gave me celebrating Israel's victory in the Six Day War. I remember the donations to Israel; what we are seeing now represents an abandonment of values on an incredible scale.
I'm also tired of reading articles that dutifully repeat whatever justifications spoke people trot out after the shootings of many civilians. It's hard to believe that we would see similar coverage of similar events elsewhere.
Most weren't civilians. Have you figured that out yet?
The settlers in the America West thought they had a god given right to take over indian land and march them off to reservations. What the Zionists have done is even worce they have taken the Palestinian land and marched them off to a strip of land that offers little future for them
not civilians. fake news. Hamas official: 50 of the 62 Gazans killed in border violence were our members
Salah Bardawil's confirmation means number of acknowledged members of terror groups who died on Monday and Tuesday is now 53
see:https://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-official-50-of-the-people-killed-in-...
A Hamas official confirmed that 50 out of the 62 dead at the fence were Hamas operatives. Israelis are realists and the IDF has excellent intelligence. The world's knee-jerk condemnation might be better aimed if it waited for the facts.
Yes, all murderers come up with justifications for their crimes and they may really believe that bogus justification in their own heads. Always. No murderer would ever admit that he/she committed a crime. "Her skirt was too short", or "he checked out my wife" or "there were Hamas members in the crowds",...
I don’t care what political party they belonged to, they were human beings who were killed from hundreds of years away by snipers. Most were teens or early twenties. That is a war crime, period.
Impossible situation from the get-go. Whose land is it? Which religious or offiical tract do you use for your evidence to state your claim? How much does the US provide Israel in money, arms, and support? How much to the other Arab nations much less Palestine? How does NIkki Haley use the word restraint w/o irony when settlements continue w/the blessings of Bibi et al, in spite of earlier protests by some in the US? It seems that we could in fact push harder for some relief for Palestinians, or perhaps we could have, before Hamas entered the fray. We lost that chance. We've none now but to continue to add fuel to the fire as we've done by moving the US embassy there. Ivanka wore a dress that matched the stone, limestone I think, of the building.
Interesting remark. However, it ignores the fact that the Israelis unilaterally withdrew from Gaza, leaving behind important infrastructure that the Palestinians could have used. Unfortunately, the Gaza Palestinians destroyed that infrastructure and, shortly thereafter, chose Hamas as their governing caste.
Can you imagine the crescendo of condemnation
if Ukrainians tried to cross into Crimea and
Russian forces shot to death 61 and injured
hundreds? Not only eschewing criticism
of Israel for using disproportionate force,
UN ambassador Halley walked out when
Palestinian ambassador started addressing
the UN security council. USA is the problem,
a big stumbling block to peace.
"I hope at least that each bullet was justified" is not sufficiently sorrowful to me.
I can imagine this degree of sorrow: Hamas/Hezbollah/Iran (and BDS, perhaps?) achieve their goal and destroy Israel via missles, tunnels, mass incursions and boycotts. Then the rest of the world - almost all of the UN General Assembly - has a moment of silence, someone says "what a shame" and then back to business.
Such is "sorrow" as pertains to Israel.
Why is sorrow even called for? These people asked for it... sought out death to boost their propaganda.
the point that some Israeli's feel very empathetic towards the palestinians and sad about what is going on is missed by all these writers. No one sees much of that diversity of thought among Palestinians who have been brainwashed to hate the Jews and Israelis. The nabka is a tragedy, but why are Palestinians the only people on earth to be guaranteed a right of return? why is there no talk of the palestinians expelled from Jordan?? The Jews and Roma of Germany and Austria and Hungary and Poland had no right of return. the 150,000 + Jews expelled or fled from Iran, Yemen, other Arab states have no right of return. armenians? Cambodians who fled Pol pot? Croatians and Serbs? Borders change all the time, sadly. Why the Palestinians think they are so special. Look at the map: Israel is less than 1% land of the Middle East, and no oil. So odd that the Arab countries will not help their brethren. Egypt has a strict border with Gaza as well.
Since the 4th Geneva Convention all people expelled militarily have the right of return. And, morally all deserve that right.
These people were not bent on a peaceful protest ... These people were bent on breaching the official recognized border in order to kill Israelis and burn their fields and houses.
What should the Israelis have done ?
What would any other country have done ?
What would Syria or Iran or Russia have done ?
What would the US, Britain, France have done ?
Find a political solution is what Britain and France would do.
Britain and France wouldn't have moved the embassy to Jerusalem, and certainly wouldn't have chosen that particular day to do it. The provocation was extreme: blame trump and all the other orchestrators of the embassy move for inciting predictable violence.
This story, from Canadian professor Gad Saad, was recently posted on Twitter:
We escaped our homeland (Lebanon) in late 1975. When my parents returned to Beirut, our home had been illegally taken over by Palestinians. We moved on. We did not harbor any collective resentment and hatred toward Palestinians.
The history of our species is replete with endless examples of conquered territories. Most nations today were once occupied by someone else. Such is history. I am typing these words from a location where the Iroquois and Algonquins were once. You are likely reading these words from a location that was once inhabited and "owned" by other people.
There is no reason why innumerable peoples have accepted the reality of history but a few others prefer to drown their future prospects in past grievances. The collective victimhood narrative is a form of perverse power wherein it becomes
yourself from victimhood. Process the past but move on to a brighter future.
I hate the fact that we left Lebanon because of religious hatred but I've accepted this reality and have built a worthy life for myself & my family elsewhere.
Recognize your past, process it, and move on. This is true at the individual level and true at the collective level.
Cheers from La Belle Province.
"Tens of millions of people throughout the entire world, including Jews, underwent similar expulsion. But only the Palestinians adopted an ethos of rejectionism, victimhood, suffering and death". To turn that argument around, "Tens of millions of people throughout the entire world, including Jews, underwent similar expulsion. But only the Jewish people adopted an ethos where they inflicted suffering and death on another ethnic group and justified it by blaming the victims". We all know that the path to peace is through empathy and love. Right now, it is the people of Israel who do not seem to have the courage to follow that path.
It is your ‘victims’ who tried as hard as they could several times to drive Israel into the sea. And what if they succeed? The entire region would resemble a refugee camp.
Just complete and total nonsense. If Hamas gave up its goals of killing Jews and destroying Israel, and turned to focus on improving the lives of the people of Gaza, it could sign a peace treat with Israel today.
Not all Jews are Israelis. In fact, the majority of Jews are not Israelis. And a significant number of Jews (not sure if it's the majority or not) are pretty horrified at what's going on.
Always from the Israeli perspective with the Israeli commentary... Why not ask those Palestinian families who were forcibly removed from their homes and villages by the jewish terror groups Haganah, Lehi, and Irgun about their dreams and aspirations as they languish in an open air prison?
This always has been and will always be about Palestinians' right to return to the homes they were dispossessed of in 1948. Each day that passes with the millions of Palestinian refugees in exile is a compounding crime against humanity. Those nation states and politicians who fight so hard to be on the wrong side of history in order to support this European colonial theocracy for want of votes and donations will ultimately have to reconcile with their inhumane choices and the lives that their intransigence impact.
No. It has always been about the Palestinians refusal to accept that the Jews have any right to live in Palestine/Israel.
They were dispossessed in 48 because they made war instead of accepting Partition. Accept the Partition plan, and not one Palestinian would have lost their home.
What's going on today is Gaza is just more of the same failed approach by the Palestinians.
Since you live in NYC, which was once Native American land, I hope you will leave back to your ancestral lands, along with every other person in America who is not of Native American descent. So, let's ship hundreds of millions of people of European descent back to Europe.
Sounds totally feasible, right?
Yes, Israel is a nation state for the Jewish people, with the Hebrew language as its official language and dominant Jewish culture. It is also a democratic state that protects the rights of minorities while STILL being a nation state. It is not a multinational state. Get over it.
And if you're so hell - bent on the right of return you can go back to your ancestral lands (certainly not NY) and make sure every Jew displaced from Europe and the Middle East (Iran, Syria, Iraq for example) can return home too. Thanks.
I'm used to the news of whatever the latest thinly-veiled Christian v. Islam violence news story contains. Neither side wants to work it out, and the US is simply working the situation to get what it wants. What's going to cause me to protest in the streets is the distinct possibility that with the coming multi front war pitting the white Christian west against the Muslims, my children will be ordered to join the military and participate. Over my dead body.
Defending? It has been reported that unarmed women and children have been murdered in cold blood by Israeli soldiers. The massacre is worse than Tienanmen Square.
Hamas just admitted in an interview that 50 of the 60 just killed were Hamas operatives. The baby that died had a prexisting condition.
Sorry, but your unarmed women and children narrative is baloney. You've swallowed the bait, hook, line and sinker!Hamas just tweeted that 50 of those killed in Monday's "massacre" were Hamas operatives, who generally are armed to the teeth!
Who in all decency would bring their baby or small children to such a protest. No excuse !!!!
Israelis have never celebrated the death of any Palestinian; rather, they lament what is sometimes necessary. I don't think all Palestinians celebrate the wanton acts of terrorism against Israelis, either, but sadly many do. Quite openly.
There is a difference.
You clearly do not watch the news. We have seen incidents the IDF filmed themselves of laughing and joking when they shot down a Palestinian target in Gaza. Both sides have gloried in their violence.
Sorry, but I've lived and worked in Israel and to claim that Israeli's have 'never celebrated the death of any Palestinian' is - to be polite - untrue.
Very, very untrue.
So the death of a Palestinian is "sometimes necessary", but the death of an Israeli is a "wanton act of terrorism". I see your sense of the "difference".
I'm sick of hearing from the poor oppressors point of view, even more than I'm sick of reading about hipster Brooklyn, NY real estate and the latest mainstream pop-sensation. I'm now sorry that I took out a Times subscription in support of the recent attacks on journalism. I'll be looking for more deserving journals that don't pander and have greater integrity.
Here are a few other American and Israeli reflections on Gaza and the plight of Palestinians in general:
1. “What a glorious day! Remember this moment,” shouted Benjamin Netanyahu to the assembled guests at Monday's embassy celebrations in Jerusalem. Israel’s prime minister, currently a subject of criminal investigation, should rest assured that the day will be remembered and mourned by Palestinians (and much of the world) in the years to come.
2. Naftali Bennett, Israel’s hardline education minister, put what the foreign ministry called the “murderous rioters” on notice. By taking part in the demonstrations, Palestinians were self-identifying as terrorists, said Bennett. If innocent Palestinians were shot dead, Bennett implied, it was their own fault for associating with demonstrators.
3. American (and Jewish) ambassador, David Friedman, loyally praised Trump’s “vision and courage” for moving the embassy to Jerusalem. As a lawyer, Friedman specialized in bankruptcy proceedings, representing the Trump Organisation when its Atlantic City casinos went belly-up. Some have questioned Friedman's diplomatic credentials, but they seemed entirely appropriate on Monday, as the ambassador praised president Trump for his "moral clarity" as dozens of women and children were gunned-down during the embassy celebrations.
Yes ...... just a few other reflections of Israelis and Jewish Americans on the plight of the Palestinian people.
4. “If they are hungry, the people of the Gaza Strip will eat the livers of those besieging them”
— Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar
This is who we give billions in military aid to each year?
My feelings are also mixed: anger, horror, and shame. Sharpeville.
Disgusting: There is no valid comparison to Sharpeville.
Regardless of which side one chooses to empathize with most, one thing seems certain: This situation cannot stand. At what point does Israel become a sort of physical and moral prison for its own people? It seems that reality is close if not already here. I am afraid by choosing to back Israel, right or wrong, the United States is enabling the worst of all outcomes.
Hamas just tweeted that 50 of those killed Monday were Hamas members. So much for the massacre narrative, but when it comes to besmirching Israel, facts are irrelevant.
60 out of 2,000 wounded is a fact that negates the idea of a massacre?
And so what if they're Hamas members. Hamas is their "government". It's like saying all the soldiers were the IDF members so it's okay to shoot kill and permanently disable nearly 3000 of them. Israeli's should wake up. The extent of this disaster and this cold blooded massacre is hurting Israel in the way that no enemy of Israel could ever achieve. Making excuses for killing everybody in their way to grab more land is going to destroy them and they have nobody to blame but themselves.
Murder is murder regardless.
Thousands of Palestinians marched to the border fence with molotov cocktails trying to break down the barrier. They brought babies and children. Why??? (pretty crazy thing to do! Unless their intention was to portray Israel on the world stage as evil when those children were hurt or killed, which is exactly what happened). They were warned over and over by the Israeli patrol to back off or they'd be shot, but they ignored the warnings, and they got shot... Israel wanted to protect it's border, and citizens, from an influx of thousands of angry protestors (and possible terrorists).
Seems to me the Palestinians, or those leading them, got a victory here; portray Israel as the bad guy...
I actually had sympathy for the Palestinians until I read that they brought babies and children to this extremely dangerous situation...
They didn't bring babies and children close to the fence. The baby who died was hit by tear gas from an Israeli drone far from the fence.
When the bully gives you a bloody nose, it is always important for the bully to blame the victim. As soon as Palestine and Israel was partitioned, the Israelites began to attack Palestine. Israel's goal was, is and always will be the forced exile of all Palestinians and the incorporation of Palisitine into "Greater Israel." Of course Palestine fought back.
The situation between Israel and the Palestinians is the sad story of two rights gone wrong. As of 70AD, the rebellious Jews lost thier land to the Romans, were scattered and for the next 2000 yrs the land became Palestine. After 2000 yrs, the same land was offered to the longsuffering Jewish people, escaping the holocaust, which was obviously unacceptable to the Palestinian/Jordanian Arabs inhabiting the same land for centuries.
There is no solution to a problem when two people claim a legitimate right for the same land.
The muddled foreign policy of Trump, controlled by Netanyahu, has finally created an impasse in the region.
There will be no solution...ergo no peace in the Middle East.
Or as Lincoln so nobly said in his second inag... speech and I am paraphrasing him, no side wanted this war and it came, let us hope that it speedily ends but if it doesn't it is the price we pay for hundreds of yrs of slavery (or in the mideast case hatred between groups).
Not certain why occupation by ancestors over 2000 years ago qualifies as a legitimate right to the land. Do Native Americans have the right to reclaim both North and South America? It makes as much sense, perhaps more sense due to less passage of time, as the Jewish claim.
There is a simple solution, respect the right (see Geneva Conventions) which protects the civil population of areas controlled by an foreign power.
Oh, I forgot, Israel is above the law and yes the Israeli did not sign those conventions, which gives them the right to enforce their own "divine" right.
It's the same story with the atomic non-proliferation treaty which they did neither sign or respect but to which they refer when it comes to neighboring countries.
We are asked to feel sorry for the soldiers who were "forced" to shoot down unarmed women and children on the other side of a fence, because they got "too close."
Poor babies, suffering the mental trauma of shooting hundreds of innocents.
At least most were maimed, rather than killed. They can still hop around on one leg, so its okay.
Not a single Israeli soldier was even hurt. These were snipers.
This myth of “women and children” shot dead while demonstrating peacefully at the Israeli border is a collective delusion. The photographs and videos show otherwise: that most of the assailants were young men. Hamas itself acknowledges that 50 of the 62 dead are theirs, and 3 more are Islamic Jihad. The many injured were shot in the leg to deter them, not kill them. Hamas bribed families $100 to attend the protests. Most stayed in the back, safe from tear gas. But there were tens of thousands gathered. Hamas megaphones directed them to get close to the fence. Tires were set on fire, the toxic black smoke to obscure the attempts to cut the wire fence and plant incendiary devices. Israeli farming communities lay just over the border.
Not reported here: 3 times this past month the Gazans destroyed their own fuel lines at the Kerem Crossing. Israel provides the fuel, electricity, and humanitarian relief to Gaza, but Gazans destroy it, deepening the Hamas-caused crisis in their territory. For the Hamas elite, however, there is plenty of food, fine houses and social life.
If the media, including the New York Times, reported the entire story, and if the readers opened their eyes to the reality, there would be pity and wonder at the self-destructiveness and needless sacrifice of the lives in Gaza.
We should feel sorry for the soldiers because they don't realize that their country is taking away their humanity at the same time it takes away Palestinian humanity.
So today, Hamas admits that of the 62 people killed while trying to breach Israel's sovereign borders, 50 were Hamas members (aka, terrorists). The loss of any life is tragic, but Hamas has been using the citizens of Gaza as sacrificial pawns in a chess game for public relations victories. They should take the hundreds of millions of aid that they received and invest in their people instead of attack tunnels.
It is a horrible thought but it may be the case that Israel shows the greatest racially biased disregard of those it administers of any developed country. This is what some of the original builders of the Zionist project feared and some expected. What they couldn't have predicted is that religion would come to play such a dominate role in the self-definition of a vital block of Israeli voters. This morning I heard the heart felt opposition of Bari Weiss to the settlements that have captured hill after hill that look down upon the impoverished Palestinians. I am sure she is being sincere but then I also know that she is aware that these settlements will never be removed. Nothing impresses one more of the commitment to rob every inch of Palestinian land than a trip across the West Bank where developments that could be in South Florida cover hill after hill. And this land can be taken because those who live there believe that they are commanded by God to take every inch. I once had one of my students at a modern orthodox yeshiva innocently say what sort of peace the Palestinian's could have, "we will be peaceful to them as they all leave"
The soldiers used rifles, not automatic weapons or bombs, to defend against people who were attempting to invade their country.
I think the invaders who totally precipitated this madness got off easy.
Put simply, the Israeli military has had years to prepare for an event such as this. The fact that they did so little to prepare, and instead relied on deadly force to repel an entirely foreseeable protest, bespeaks an inhuman callousness. The IDF's failure to make proper preparations for repelling large numbers of unarmed protestors using the minimum amount of violence necessary was, at best, grossly negligent, and at worst, actively malicious.
Totally wrong. The IDF does use some non lethal methods.Unfortunately, they don't work very well and especially against large crowds. In addition, they work against "protestors", but they aren't effective against really determined people whose goal isn't to protest, but to cross to the other side of the fence and kill people.
All of the coverage has referred to Gaza as a kind of "open air prison", and subject to a "blockade", but nobody has said why this is so. Gaza is ruled by Hamas, and Hamas spends most of the large amount of money it receives, from outside sources and from extorting and taxing the residents of Gaza, on producing weapons and tunnels. It spends just about all of its time thinking of how to smuggle in weapons and building materials in order to attack Israel. Israel has established terminals where incoming goods can be inspected. Hamas has repeatedly destroyed them. Hamas wants misery and uses it as a tactic. Exhorting Gazans to rush the fence in the hope that it can be breached so that its agents can infiltrate and murder Israelis is just the latest episode.
Unfortunately, the only possible outcome to this protest is that a few dozen/hundred more civilians, mixed in with maybe a handful of militants, will die, before it simmers down and eventually becomes a distant memory, one probably none of you would even remember if asked about it in six months' time.
Israel will not allow its border to be breached by a hodgepodge of terrorists, civilians, and terrorists disguised as civilians, when the nearest Israeli villages lay feet from the border.
Hamas will not miss a good press day by calling off the breaching of the border before Israel receives sufficiently bad press for killing civilians.
So the wheel keeps turning. Another day in perpetual double-edged Nakba.
Let's all be happy to have our first world problems and dilemmas.
Every death is a tragedy, and we all want peace rather than violence. But the majority of the dead were Hamas terrorists, according to a Hamas official. What would the USA do if terrorists tried repeatedly to infiltrate our border?
“Hamas official: 50 of the 62 Gazans killed in border violence were our members”
https://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-official-50-of-the-people-killed-in-...
This is pure Israeli propaganda, most of the killed have nothing to do with the Hamas which anyway has less blood on its hands than the IDF.
The real terrorists are on the other side.
"In the last round of confrontations, of 62 people martyred, 50 of them were Hamas” - Hamas spokesman (Salah Bardawil) in a television interview earlier today.
I'm glad at least someone is acknowledging what actually happened.
So, even if this was true and we are to believe Hamas, how is it ok to kill members of Hamas? Just being affiliated with Hamas, the ruling party if Gaza, means you are as good as dead?
And how would the snipers know they were shooting HAMAS? The whole argument is nonsense. Eight kids were killed.
Did you ever wonder why Gazans don't storm the border fence on the Egyptian side? Because there would be no protestors left. Nor would there be any countrywide self-reflection or remorse in Egypt. Israelis doesn't want violence but they also don't to succumb to it. And they know the neighborhood they live in shows no mercy in war. See recent history in Syria, Iraq, Yemen, Bahrain, Libya, and Lebanon if you need examples.
After 70 years of building no institutions, no educational system, no means for trade, no real business, or have any other policy or thought than, "It's Israel's fault", it's hard for me to feel any empathy for the followers of Hamas.
They seem to have no problem building tunnels, launching rockets, or any aspect of war and killing. But now they're using their own people as "martyrs" to get support?! I'd probably have a bit more respect for their leaders, I have zero now, if they were leading the march, AND staying at the front of the march so they become the martyrs they so revere, as opposed to thieves that take the peoples monies and live in luxury.
Contrary to what this article would suggest, there have, in fact, been protests in Israel against the military's use of force at the Gaza border.
Hamas official: 50 of the 62 Gazans killed in border violence were our members.
Salah Bardawil's confirmation means number of acknowledged members of terror groups who died on Monday and Tuesday is now 53
https://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-official-50-of-the-people-killed-in-...
@Michael: This is encouraging; could you please provide relevant URLs. Thanks.
On May 14, 2018 over 60 Palestinians were killed by Israel in one day! these Palestinians were civilians without guns!
What other nation on earth would kill 60 civilians engaged in peaceful protests and no eyebrows are raised? But, a slap on the wrist as always, is what Israel gets?
Palestinian lives are taken as valueless, worthless and meaningless, while President Trump, as the rabble rouser in-chief, has now added accelerants to a raging inferno with his relocation of the American Embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem on May 14, 2018.
Last month, Israel also killed 31 Palestinians and the world prevaricated. The United Nations toothless wimpy bulldog could not even establish a Committee to investigate the unwarranted killings of Palestinians!
In 2014, according to the United Nations, Israel killed 2,104 Palestinians but the Palestinian leaders put the killing at over 2,500 Palestinians and the world has looked on impishly and sheepishly.
At the United Nations and elsewhere, the current mantra is clearly that power or might is right. As such, Israel is allowed to constantly use its Sledge hammer to kill mosquitoes, with winks and nods from America and some other Western powers
Grieving in Gaza and Jubilations in Jerusalem! Are Palestinian Lives Worthless?
https://essayscommentariesanalysesdebates.wordpress.com/2018/05/16/griev...
Not civilians by any stretch. Hamas says 50 of them were Hamas. Another 3 were from another terrorist organization. Hamas makes clear it is in a war to destroy Israel. What is the morality of "soldiers" hiding behind civilians? No other nation would tolerate an invasion like this.
Hamas is trading blood for headlines. It's working.
Just like Ghandi, King, Mandela. I’ll admit Hamas is not as ethically clean as those three. But for decades the Palestinians have been subjugated, often after their own mistakes. But what other course of action would work. I have been troubled over the years, why the Palestinians don’t adopt complete non-violence like Ghandi. If they did everything peacefully, the Israeli’s would lose the high ground. I don’t understand why the smartest Palestinians don’t see this.
I am routinely censored on these comment sections because I express a pro-Israel opinion, whereas out-n-out anti-Semitic rants typically walk through the front door. But here goes, I’ll express an Israeli opinion straight from Jerusalem, which, for fact, speaks for many over here:
This is Jewish land. All of Israel. There is no “occupation” by Israel, and there never was. The nation of Israel lives in Israel by grace of God’s decision, which is encapsulated in the Hebrew Bible. Yes, the same Hebrew Bible that the other world religions then adopted into their own theologies. So long as we keep the commandments of the Hebrew Bible, Israel is promised it shall continue to thrive in its homeland. There is incontrovertible evidence of thousands of years of Israelite civilization in this land. We have now returned home after multiple attempts to genocide us, while the world just laughed.
Islam controls over 99% of the Middle East and those countries have plenty of room for other Muslims, if they only opened their doors. So many Muslim countries that can’t stand to see a little tiny Israel in their midst. They and the Palestinians (and I call them that because that is how they self-identify), could have had peace numerous times, and instead have chosen genocide and hate over and over. No one doubts they would murder us all mercilessly if they could. And yet not only do we survive, we provide the world with light and hope and numerous scientific advances.
It’s God’s movie. Deal.
So, if another group of people in Israel arrived there today and said, "Hey, according to OUR holy book, this land was OURS 2,000 years ago so we're here to take it back", you would be okay with that and just move all the Israeli's into camps so that this new group could live out their religious dream?
So-called "god" never gave anything to anyone. Israel was deeded to the Nation of Jews by the United Nations, which is a conglomeration of the nation's of the world, to make recompense for what the Germans did. That biblical stuff doesn't count for anything in the real world.
Palestinians are Semites, too.
Sounds like a plan that Trump could use instead of building a wall. Just shoot them all. My respect for Israel is hovering near zero.
The behavior of the Israeli population, and the policies of the Netanyahu government, both make me deeply ashamed to be Jewish.
Hamas has admitted that 50 out of the 62 killed were Hamas members. Hamas is a terrorist organization that wants to kill all the Jews of Israel. What are you ashamed of?
Then try another religion. Baal worship is open for newcomers.
Zionism and the State of Israel were built on the ethos of victimhood. Israel is not the victim.
You might as well ask male undergraduates how they feel about campus sexual assault: some will understand; some will be indifferent; some will rationalize rape. Effort is better spent putting people on notice about the immorality and illegality of the matter, not on surveying people's feelings. Anything that draws attention away from these heinous and criminal assassinations is a shande. And just as Americans are reflected in their government, so every Israeli is complicit here. Boycott. Divest. Sanction.
So now we learn that Hamas admits that 50 of the 62 killed on Monday were in fact Hamas militants, not innocent unarmed civilians. I wonder if the NYT will mention that. I also wonder if there is one reporter out there who will mention that any children killed were brought to the front lines of a chaotic protest deliberately in the hopes of getting killed in order to achieve maximum propaganda points. That is a war crime and the pro Palestinian apologists refuse to acknowledge that. And it is also insane to think that any child was killed deliberately as there is absolutely nothing to gain from that.
From light to all the nations to blight among its neighbors.
I understand that Israel has no one on the Palestinian side to negotiate with. That doesn't excuse the government's response to the protests. Or the settlement policy, or - closer to home - the abhorent sight of Kushner and his bride, representing the USA in Jerusalem.
Jealousy, envy. Leave the Kushners (i.e. the Jews) out of it. It is ridiculous for the President to appoint family as paid advisors, I agree. But, I've seen too many jabs at Jared to understand he is getting blamed, because he's Jewish.
I am just mystified at the language used in this article. After viewing this conflict from several different sources it seems quite clear this wasn't a "demonstration" - peaceful or otherwise-but a planned attempt to breach a border of a sovereign country. Any country would take the actions the Israelis did without hesitation for one simple reason: the people who were attempting the incursion were trying to do violence to the citizens of Israel. Sorry, I am not sure why there is not more reporting about how the Gazans planned all of this event. Let's stop the hand wringing. If someone were breaking into your house intending to violence, armed or not, you'd defend yourself.
By that same token Palestinians are right to open fire on any Israeli infiltrators who attempt to enter the West Bank right?
“The Arabs of Palestine underwent expulsion. Tens of millions of people throughout the entire world, including Jews, underwent similar expulsion. But only the Palestinians adopted an ethos of rejectionism, victimhood, suffering and death.”
Can't be said any better... the Palestinian leadership and its people must adopt a new mode of thinking... one of acceptance and reconciliation. Definitely a bitter pill to swallow but t's the only way forward to a lasting peace.
Overheard at many A.A. meetings... the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over again and expecting a different result.
The definition of insanity is to continue to do the same thing and expect a different outcome. Finally, we have an American president and an Israeli Prime minister with some actual guts. The hand ringing in this commentary section is sickening as is the New York Times coverage. Hamas is in the terrorism business and clearly there is no low too low for them to make sure they maintain their stranglehold on the Palestinian people. If just once the international community called their bluff and penalized them for not participating in the well being of their own people, maybe we would see some change. Even the rest of the Sunni Muslim world is waking up. But, unfortunately, it’s the same old, same old for the liberal West. Are they really that worried that Trump could have a success here, where decades of cajoling, and sniveling appeasement have failed.
Pretend this had been Birmingham AL in 1963,and MLK was leading a civil rights demonstration. Would your opinions be different than your opinions about the Gaza shootings?
The "authorities" in Alabama took pretty much the same view of demonstrators-"outside agitators",allegations of weapons,threat to life and property,etc.
(Skip the terrorism and "armed" demonstrators allegations from Israel,as well ignore Hamas' cynical and criminal manipulations of the protestors.)
Back in 1963 a large proportion of Americans were of the same opinion that Israelis hold now.
MLK engaged in actual non violence. He was about getting all people their rights.
Hamas is the polar opposite: only uses violence, and is all about hate and denying others not only rights, but life itself.
I just love how the NY Times, and all these commentators, moralize and opine on everything Israel does to defend itself and protect its borders.
Well, in our wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, as well as all the drone strikes in places like Somalia, Yemen, etc... we the USA have killed hundreds of thousands of civilians over the past 15 years, of course all accidentally as "collateral damage".
But I do not recall any NY Times stories dealing in depth with how Americans were reflecting and feeling about the hundreds of thousands of civilians the US military has killed in our wars.
Today a Hamas official acknowledged that 50 of the dead at the border fence were Hamas members. Islamic Jihad admits that three of its members died. Will the New York Times report these admissions? It certainly changes the impression conveyed about the killing of "mostly unarmed Palestinians."
They were "unarmed Palectinians", so what is your point?
Hamas is a mass organization, so why wouldn't their members be on the front line? Your attempt to justify the deaths of unarmed demonstrators is an admission of your loss of conscience.
Bullets against , kits, knives and threats . Bully tactics, why not water canons? How about other non lethal weapons.
As usual Israel abuses other countries and expects sympathetic press .
Hamas has admitted that over 50 of the 62 dead were Hamas members. Hamas is an organization whose sole goal is to destroy the Jewish State. They are anything but peaceful demonstrators and The New York Times repeatedly reports otherwise. Your journalistic objectivity certainly comes into question when you portray a situation through the lens and the propaganda of terrorists.
They didn't "admit." They boasted. Which means that you should take this with a lot of grains of salt. The Hamas commander who made this claim is most probably seeking to deflect blame on Hamas for inciting civilians into this lethal confrontation while building up his own organization's credibility as comprising brave and self-sacrificing martyrs. Both sides love this narrative.
I've yet to hear what Israel should have done instead. One commentator said they should wait until the border was breached and only then attack the Palestinians. So, wait until people wanting to overrun Israel and kill Israelis should be allowed to breach a country's border? Thousands of young Palestinian men attacking the towns that lay almost next to the border? You want to see more Paestinians killed? That would be the result. But Israelis would be murdered so I guess it would be ok.
Do you live surrounded by millions of people who want to destroy you?
You do recall that there were open borders with Israel and when Israel removed all Jews from Gaza, in a gesture of friendship Hamas lobbbed rockets into Israel. Thus the border.
Again, what is your solution?
The Birmingham and Selma Alabama police used water canons and dogs which seemed somewhat more effective than shooting children
Why don't I trust the "Times" to find Israeli a sufficient number of Israelis to express what those on the American left would assume is the correct reaction? Shame. "Times" coverage and commentary to date has been so lopsided in sympathizing WITH the Palestinian attempted invasion of Israel to carry out mass slaughter it beggars the imagination. Of course the Israelis are conflicted: no one enjoys a bloody spectacle -- but they know what the goal of this Hamas-led attempted incursion was. (Check Hamas' website.) It might succeed in infiltrating killers into Israel to knife and ax Israeli civilians to death or achieve an almost equally desirable goal, which, thanks to the "New York Times" and the "Washington Post" it did pull off: evoke sympathy for a terrorist organization and its frenzied followers. Why do I imagine it would have been easy to find Israelis who understandably don't want Palestinian mobs intent on killing them to cross the border -- and yet are anguished by the death toll. You make sure to find one person to serve as your accomplice in making Israelis look like monsters without empathy -- citing people who regarded winning the Eurovision Song Contest as the great event of the day. Having been to Israel many times I know you could easily have found others to express relief to have been spared attempts on their lives while bemoaning the need to take so much life. You had a political agenda in this article -- and you made the story match. Shameful.
They don’t care, plain to see. They are guided by blind hegemony and imperious religious entitlement. This is not a war by any meaningful measure though insasmuch as that this is a war, these are war crimes—a mass murder, a massacre. The global community speaking out is the only hope against further apartheid.
This just in: A Hamas official says in an interview that 50 of the Gazans killed in Monday’s clashes with Israeli troops were members of the terror group.
Salah Bardawil says of the “62 people martyred, 50 were Hamas.” Gaza’s Hamas-run health ministry earlier reported 60 Gazans were killed in the clashes.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog-may-16-2018/
The Hamas leader who said that was very possibly trying to deflect blame from Hamas's encouraging a protest that led to the deaths of scores of civilians. By claiming fifty martyrs he gets to disclaim Hamas's own responsibility in encouraging civilians to be confrontational and to make Hamas look like a courageous resistance. If the claim is true it will change the perspective. But the likelihood of its truth right now seems low.
I understand the situation the IDF faces, but saying "this is the greatest day in our history" with 50-60 dead civilians, well, at a minimum it's tone-deaf
It is too bad that only 52 of the 60 Gazans killed in the attempted invasion were Hamas members since it was their show all along.
Don't believe what Hamas leaders claim when they're trying to take credit and deflect blame. Or at least indicate that you're reporting an unverified and dubious claim.
"Mostly unarmed Palestinians"; that's an interesting qualifier. Terrorists hiding between unarmed meatshield is what Israeli have to deal with daily.
As I've said several times, a bottle of vodka is mostly water.
Palestinians, get this through your heads. Palestinians are never going to get a state on the West Bank. That ship has sailed. There are too many Jews now in Israel to make a mini-state for Jews viable.
The best that Palestinians can hope for is full Israeli citizenship, some degree of autonomy similar to what French Canadians have in Quebec, plus payment of Just Compensation to those who lost land or property due to Israel's creation by the UN, the representative of the World Community, as under the legal doctrine of Eminant Domain. Let us also recall that Israel was created by the UN to make recompense for what the Germans did.
As far as Gaza goes, the UN should immediately recognize Gaza as an independent state whether Gaza asks for it or it. Right now Gaza is not Israel, it's not Egypt. It's a big nothing.
There's your Palestinian state,,, Gaza.
To History, 70 years if nothing, a mere blink of the eye. Once, there was Roman Empire, a Greek Empire, a Persian Empire, a French Empire and British Empire, a Spanish Empire, even Dutch and Portugese Empires . Once what we now call the USA was a vast area with many indigenous tribes. So, Mike, nothing lasts; one day, things will be different and Israel won't exist. You can't fight everyone without going down.
Israel wasn't created by the U.N. It was and is the homeland of world Jewry from time immemorial, and since the Balfour Declaration was designated to be the modern Jewish state. Once the British left the Mandate, the state was formed. The U.N. confirmed, but the U.N. doesn't create countries. The Arab Palestinians could have had their own country simultaneously, but they rejected the General Assembly (suggestion, not legally binding) partition plan. That is long irrelevant. Gaza is Palestine. What will happen in the West bank remains to be seen. Dividing it up and working out border controls, a non military state for Palestinians, is excruciatingly hard work even when both sides want it peacefully.
Israelis turned "a big nothing" into cultivation of flowers and crops. They even left the greenhouses for the Palestinians who destroyed the greenhouses and returned the land to "a big nothing".
https://twitter.com/LTCJonathan/status/99674164205601996.8 Senior Hamas official sets the record straight on who was killed in last Hamas-orchestrated riots: "50 of the 62 martyrs were Hamas". This is a Palestinian video not Israeli.
This unlikely assertion would need confirmation.The Hamas leader who said that was very possibly trying to deflect blame from Hamas's encouraging a protest that led to the deaths of scores of civilians. By claiming fifty martyrs he gets to disclaim Hamas's own responsibility in encouraging civilians to be confrontational and to make Hamas look like a courageous resistance. If the claim is true it will change the perspective. But the likelihood of its truth right now seems low.
"Sorry, that page doesn’t exist!"
Even if it did, using twitter to validate a claim is about what you'd expect from apologists for a blood-thirsty pariah state.
The Trump WH and the GOP share blame in this horrible turn of events. People need to see that money played a part. Bibi now owns and operates our WH.
Hamas leader just said 50 out of 62 dead are members of the organization. Why isn't that mentioned? Totally changes the perspective.
And of the 1500 injured? How many were civilians? Probably many
Because the one Hamas leader who said that was very possibly trying to deflect blame from Hamas's encouraging a protest that led to the deaths of scores of civilians. By claiming fifty martyrs he gets to disclaim Hamas's own responsibility in encouraging civilians to be confrontational and to make Hamas look like a courageous resistance. If the claim is true it will change the perspective. But the likelihood of its truth right now seems low.
Why does that change the perspective? People armed with rocks and stones , shot from hundreds of yards away is still murder. I get that their political affiliation matters some, but slaughter is slaughter.
What's the casualty rate of Palestinians who didn't try to breach the border?
Apparently surprisingly high since according to reporting by The New Yorker many people were killed hundreds of yards away from the border.
It's sad that Hamas has chosen to encourage violence as a means of deflecting people's frustration with their rule of Gaza.
Israel will never win their aim of reductinc the conflict until they stop blasting mosquitos with cannon. If they want peace after this debacle they should offer medical assistance to the victims, most of whom were unarmed and, understandably from their historical point of view, upset at the loss of their access to holy sites. Israel must WANT this conflict. They should be ashamed of this over-the-top bloodshed and reexamine their strategies. If they don't change this sad conflict will only worsen, and they will be responsible for their enemies' desperation.
The frustration is with the Israeli oppression of the people... which makes them turn to Hamas..
What a disgusting day. The opening of the Jerusalem embassy by unelected family members that caused to escalate the desperation of Palestine. Murder is murder.
I used to support Israel as an indispensable ally and symbol of right action following the second world war.
But today it has squandered its image and heritage, and I hold it in contempt as an apartheid state. It is perpetrating upon the Palestinian people what has historically been visited upon Jews the world over, relegating them to a ghetto in Gaza. This is especially cruel coming from a people on whom such abuses have been visited for millennia.
"In the last round of confrontations, of 62 people martyred, 50 of them were Hamas” - Hamas spokesman (Salah Bardawil) in a television interview earlier today.
So, by Israel defending themselves against terrorists, it has "squandered its image and heritage"? Interesting thought.
Reportedly, there's a tendency for people who are abused when they are children and have no power to use their power to abuse when they grow up and have some.
I suggest that the NYT update this article to include the fact that Hamas has now confirmed that 53 of the 60 were members of its organization.
"Confirmed" = "claimed." Just as ISIS claims every attack is by a member of ISIS. Perhaps they were, but I suspect this is inflammatory propaganda, good for belligerents and rejectionists on both sides.
No, because it's not true.
Hamas...always a reliable source. Also, hasbera seems to be having difficulty getting their number straight:Was it 36 51, or 47? who knows,you guys all keep saying different things
I am Jewish and am disgusted by Israeli barbarism.
Even Hamas has stated that 50 of the 62 killed were Hamas members. Israel defending itself is barbaric? Do you recommend that, instead, they allow the Hamas members to cross into Israel? Do you expect them to bring flowers with them?
"I am Jewish and am disgusted by Israeli barbarism."
I'm Netherlands Reformed and I'm disgusted with "Palestinian" recalcitrance and savagery.
If 40,000 people throwing rocks tried to storm your house, with your family inside, would you just politely open the door?
There is no such thing as a disproportionate response to an existential threat. And yes, these "demonstrators" are, symbolically and practically, an existential threat. They elected a government hell bent on spilling Israeli blood.
This is terrible. And it is the fault of the Palestinians and their leadership. If you run at a professional army, you will get killed. They knew it, they did it. Their fault.
Any discussion about peace must start with the Palestinians renouncing violence and accept that there is a large democracy in their midst. Do that, and nobody else needs to die.
Any discussion of peace needs to start with an Israeli admission that Arabs by the millions were dispossessed of their homes, shops, and fields. Then a right of those Arabs and their heirs to return to those homes, shops, and fields can be effected. If that happens in a coherent state of Isleal, then those Arabs must be granted full citizenship. Then there can be peace. Or Likud can realize its true goal, which is to complete the stealing of land and annihilation of the people from whom they steal it. As every good Irishman knows, accepting a democracy in their midst that has stolen their land is not consistent with a discussion of peace
"Any discussion about peace must start with the Palestinians..."
Excellent job, Surgeon.
You have learned your Trump and your Bibi well, grasshopper.
"I am all for peace. I adore peace, and will sacrifice for peace. You first."
Hamas was originally supported covertly by Mossad as a counterweight To the more effective PLO. It would appear that that plan is working beautifully
The NY TImes' coverage of the demonstrations at the border continues to be unconscionably distorted. The rest of the world is condemning Israeli violence in the strongest possible terms, and articles here present the views of a handful of Israelis? Bring Declan Walsh to Israel and Palestine, fire Kershner for good please. No-one should rely solely on the NYT for their information on this particular issue.
If the NY Times concedes that Israel is entitled to defend its borders, then it would be admitting that the United States, likewise, is entitled to enforce its own borders.
Is Jerusalem a holy city?? The Israelis have turned it into a grotesque symbol of much of what is worst in humanity: greed, selfishness, prejudice... -- Under Israeli control the 'holy land' has become a place that segregates men rather than brings them together.
-- Its laughable and pathetic that they use the Bible to justify such behavior.
East Jerusalem, the holy site, is under Jordanian control - Islamic. Direct your complaints there.
When is leadership of Hamas held to scrutiny. They perpetuate the suffering of their own people to stay in power. You never hear of an opposition to Hamas in Gaza because all dissenters are quickly and quietly lynched.
Hamas has announced that 50 of its fighters are among the dead. Islamic Jehud has announced that 3 of its fighters are among the dead. That means that at lest 53 of the 62 dead at the Gaza border were proud terrorists. Enough said.
Israeli officials said that only a few of those killed were armed. Was the IDF afraid that the "terrorists" would bite them?
Wonder why this was not included in the NY Times story? Oddly Hamas is not denying it, but proudly announcied it.
I do not understand how NYT can stand behind such an distorted reportage, putting the quilt on those who are slaughtered, here is a factual account, these are not "clashes", but executions: https://www.facebook.com/JewishVoiceforPeace/videos/10157392479514992/?h...
Ms. Erakat is articulate and should be speaking more often, but I'm sure she isn't given a platform too often.
If NYT hadn't covered for Israel for decades, by never telling us all the horrible things settlers and others do to Palestinians day and and day out, while IDF soldiers stand and watch, we would have had a 2 state solution long ago. But they only cover when "poor Israelis" are harmed. If you want real news, you watch Al Jazeera and read the Israeli papers.
I like to see the same happening in Mexico USA borders and I am very sure the USA reaction will be harsher and more killings.it is easy to be liberals and generous from four thousand miles when your life is not at risk
I dont blame the IDF at all for what happened. I believe in defending boundaries.
Which is why I support Palestinians snipers shooting at every Israeli who crosses the Green Line and "infiltrates" the West Bank. Looks like there are almost 1 million Israeli infiltrators right now.
I guess you didn't read about the Migrant Caravan that arrived at our border recently. No one was killed or harmed. How many migrants did European countries shoot with snipers? Zero. But thanks for reaching out from London to stand up for your people.
Deputize civilians to enforce the border. They'll clear it for years.
Shame on Israel. Blind to their own brutality and arrogance, seeking justification where there is none.
I visited Israel in the spring of 2000. A friend who worked for the UN was stationed in Jerusalem. After visiting both the territories,
- seeing how Arabs lived in slums, even in Jerusalem, and Jews enjoyed fancy villas,
- witnessing soldiers turn over a large cart of oranges pulled by a donkey, with an old man walking it just for the laugh,
- listening to arrogant Israelis who had immigrated from Canada, at a party claiming "It's our land, all of it is ours, they have no rights to it" right in front of Palestinians who were also present,
I had zero respect left for Israel and its Jewish population. Youtube is littered with videos of abuse of Palestinians by soldiers and civilians alike.
Israel is morally corrupting Judaism, dooming both.
After more than five millennia surviving enemies, Judaism will not survive its own sins unless a clear majority of the Jews of the Diaspora loudly denounce Israeli crimes against humanity.
The most tragically ironic aspect of all this is that uber-Zionists within and without Israel are providing actual evidence to confirm many of the the most toxic anti-Semitic slanders.
Apparently for Jews, their very existence upon their own indigenous ground is considered by some a crime against humanity.
I am really disappointed that the NYT ran such an article justifying the killing and wounding of thousands of people by the Israeli military using bullets and rifles paid by us the American people. Ruthless and premediated sniper killing of protestors who posed no threat is a war crime. No amount of blaming the crazy Hamas justifies this. Israel stole the Palestinians land, and is now starving the West Bank residents and refuses to negotiate a peace treaty, and now shoots down people in cold blood.
Shame on Israel; you betray your great nation and your cause. I like most other Americans oppose any military or other aid to a fascist government engaged in war crimes, and now it is Israel. There is an alternative and it is called peace and justice for Palestinians and Israelis.
How many actual Hamas fighters were harmed?
From the pictures and videos I've seen it appears that Iran-sponsored Hamas stupidly sent their mothers and women and children to the fence to invade Israel. So brave!
“The Arabs of Palestine underwent expulsion. Tens of millions of people throughout the entire world, including Jews, underwent similar expulsion. But only the Palestinians adopted an ethos of rejectionism, victimhood, suffering and death.”
An Israeli pundit telling the Palestinians, basically, to "get over it".
That these words emanate from a culture which, eighty years after the fact, still invokes the Holocaust at every opportunity, reflects a lack of self-examination. The absence of reflection is quite predictable in a society which engages in an on-going, illegal, merciless oppression of the Palestinians.
The expulsion of the Jews was resolved via the expulsion of the Palestinians, a fact that makes the above statement even more reprehensible.
This from a man who lives on land from which the Muwkma Ohlone people were displaced.
This from a man who is living on land from which the Muwekma Ohlone people were displaced. Any reflections, Ed?
No, Ed. It comes from a culture that revived itself after genocide. It comes from all those Holocaust survivors who made good lives for themselves where ever they landed after the Holocaust.
It comes from a culture that isn't trying to turn the clock back to 1947 or even 1917 (like the Palestinians are).
It comes from a country with millions of people who were once refugees or fled countries of discrimination against them, and made a better life for themselves instead of wallowing in the past.
And hundreds of thousands of those refugees in Israel were people forced out of Arab countries.
It's really simple, Ed. The Palestinians refused partition in 48 and made war. They lost, and for 70 years have refused to get on with their lives. And the Arab countries have made sure they stay permanently with the status of refugee, just to make it hard for them.
in 1948, seven Arab countries attacked the 1 day old Israel. Had they won, no Jew would be left alive. Jews had to flee Jerusalem (no one ever talks about that!) and Jerusalem was then razed by the Jordanians. Nineteen years went by, and no Palestinian state was established, no development occurred in the West Bank or Gaza, nada.
Meanwhile, in all the Arab countries, the governments and the populace pounced on, rioted, killed and expelled ALL the Jews (who had done nothing to them), thus making the Middle East Judenrein. Except for Israel and 20,000 remaining in Iran. There were 800,000 Jewish refugees, fleeing for their lives. No one ever talks about these refugees.
Fast forward 70 years. The Jewish refugees (expelled for no fault of their own) endured many hardships, but went on with their lives. Their millions of descendants are living normal productive lives, half in Israel, half in other countries.
The Arab refugees, OTOH, an unfortunate result of a war started by Arabs, which was intended to annihilate the Jews, have been purposefully left by their Arab brethren to fester in refugees camps, 4 generations now. They're denied citizenship in all Arab countries, denied the ability to pursue many occupations, and also denied the right to immigrate to Western countries. Their leaders are terrorist thugs (both the PLO and Hamas), billionaires, Jew haters, who make money while keeping their people stuck chasing via terror the old dream of "kill the Jews". Solve THAT.
Another comment stated: "Israel stole the Palestinians' land ...". Doesn't this fact need to be addressed before any other blame can be apportioned? I'm asking ...
My belief is when a Jewish state was declared, the theft of land became formalized. My belief is also that, had such a state NOT been declared, and instead Palestine/Israel been a free land for all people, it could have become a thriving community and country.
We should definitely continue to hold millions of people in an open air prison with limited access to food and medical care because of what some governments did 70 years ago? No. This is totally unacceptable and I cannot understand how anyone can justify this senseless, disgusting behavior.
Hmm...Let's come back to a region of the world that belonged to the Palestinians for 2000 years and claim it for ourselves with the help of the US support, lock the Palestinians living in Gaza for 10 years, limit their access to the rest of the world, their friends and family on the other side of Israel, limit their access to basic human resources and rights, and then shoot them when they protest. Oh, and THEN reflect on how we feel about the whole situation. What kind of journalism is this?
Shujana: Here are FACTS:
1. Israel became a nation in 1312 B.C.E., two thousand years before the rise of Islam.
2. Arab refugees began identifying themselves as part of a Palestinian people in 1967, two decades after the establishment of the modern State of Israel.
3. Since the Jewish conquest in 1272 B.C.E, the Jews had dominion over the land for one thousand years with a continuous presence in the land for the past 3,300 years.
4.The only Arab domination since the conquest in 635 C.E. lasted no more than 22 years.
5. For over 3,300 years, Jerusalem has been the Jewish capital. Jerusalem has never been the capital of any Arab or Muslim entity. Even when the Jordanians occupied Jerusalem, they never sought to make it their capital, and Arab leaders did not come to visit.
6. Jerusalem is mentioned over 700 hundred times in Bible. Jerusalem is not mentioned once in the Koran.
7. King David founded the city of Jerusalem. Mohammed never came to Jerusalem.
8. Jews pray facing Jerusalem. Muslims pray with their backs toward Jerusalem.
9. Arab and Jewish refugees: Arabs were not driven out of their homes. Following the UN decision on Partition in 1948, the Arab refugees were encouraged to leave Israel by Arab leaders, promising to purge the land of Jews. They argued that an "Arab presence" would only get in the way of the planned devastation. Sixty-eight percent left without ever seeing an Israeli soldier.
10. The Jewish refugees were forced to flee from Arab lands due to persecuti
//Hmm...Let's come back to a region of the world that belonged to the Palestinians for 2000 years//
As pointed out, this is fictional. What's more, the division between mulk and miri land was heavily, heavily shifted towards mulk. The supermajority of Arabs in the region who would later come to thought of as Palestinians (by ethnicity rather than geography), were tenants, not owners, of the land in any case.
// and claim it for ourselves with the help of the US support//
More fiction. Israel was founded without any real support from any external nation, and it wasn't until '67 that the US truly supported Israel, and even then only as a counterweight for the Soveits.
//lock the Palestinians living in Gaza for 10 years//
Funny... could've sworn that Gaza borders Egypt, too. I wonder why they don't have an open border with the Palestinians?
//and then shoot them when they protest. //
Peaceful Palestinian protesters aren't being shot. Those taking part in an organized invasion of another country, however, are putting themselves at risk.
//What kind of journalism is this?//
Obviously not one based on the non-facts you've built your narrative around.
The evidence is that Israel did not apply the Geneva convention which states that locals have to be protected by the occupying army. It's very convenient for Israel to claim that they did not sign this agreement (as is also the case of the non proliferation treaty).
And so the strong can define its own rules and forget about standards of humanity and justice.
Hamas admits that 50 of the 60 dead are its militants. Terrorists used civilians as human shields and attempted to broach a border to slaughter Israeli citizens. The IDF performed admirably in killing terrorists and minimizing harm to their human shields. Alas, too much of the media gives Hamas a secondary PR victory by refusing to call out their terrorism. Doing so makes good copy, I guess.
Please supply link supporting your “50 of the 60 killed were. Hamas militants. Thank you, I know you’ll get right on it
There is never going to be peace between Israelis and Gazans so long as serious and honest reflection about events such as the fatalities resulting from the violent Gazan border protests earlier this week is engaged in solely by Israelis and not by those who live on the other side of the security fence.
Israel has no vision. There is no long term strategy, only short sighted aggression. Each death hardens people's hearts and minds. An 8 month old baby died after inhaling tear gas. I have a baby, if this happened to me I would see red for the rest of my life, especially if I saw it happening around me continually for years. Multiply that by generations of people on both sides. This is the epitome of unsustainable. It's like watching a couple strangle each other.
What would we call parents in the US who bring their 8 month old baby to a march on an enemy border, where the baby might be exposed to tear gas and live ammunition fire?
This isn't "desperation" any more than desperation was what motivated kamikaze pilots during WWII. This is a culture in which martyrdom is celebrated and rewarded; even the "moderate" Palestinian Authority which rules the West Bank provides pensions to the families of persons who die when they carry out suicide bombings.
Would you bring an eight-month old baby to a protest in a military zone where people throw rocks and burn tires, and there’s known to be tear gas, bullets? The fault is with the people who did.
The word coming out now is that the 8 month old baby had a serious health condition that was aggravated by the tear gas. That makes the parents even more irresponsible than previously thought.
This was not a peaceful demonstration.
Many people believe that "unarmed" means no weapon at all, but in fact the Gazans threw rocks, Molotov Cocktails, etc., and sent flaming kites to burn Israeli crops. Many stormed the border fence to get into Israel.
Most front-line Israeli soldiers are young people. I am sure they did not relish shooting at Gazans.
However, the Gazans instigated this violence with violence of their own, which many people want to pretend didn't happen.
Meanwhile Hamas got exactly what it wanted, though at the cost of a lot of human suffering. The payoff is the increased negative view of Israel, which in fact is defending its border as it has every right to do.
A Palestinian who travels half a mile to a demonstration is a trouble maker.
An American who travels thousands of miles to a settlement is a noble innocent.
What's with the NYTs parroting the Israeli claim that their armed Palestinians in the crowd? This was purely a massacre of an unarmed crowd protesting Trump's shameless recognizing the Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. Chuck Schumer's clueless remark that Israel should be able to have its capital anywhere in Israel. The settler gov't of Netanyahu with Trump, in the name of the US gov't, to just take the city without making any effort for an agreement with the Palestinians. The Palestinians don't have the US news media and the US gov't to make their lies smell like roses like the Netanyahu gov't has.
Hamas claims 50 fighters among the 62 dead. Islamic Jihad claims 3. Some died in a firefight. Always check the latest news before you comment on a Times piece and you can avoid yourself this kind of embarrassment. if you Google but I say above, you will see that it has been reported in both be Arab and Israeli press. There is also translated video.
The NYT may not bother to report this, but maybe this reader should take a stock of and should also parrot it to himself what a Hamas official acknowledged to a local Palestinian TV outlet - that 50 of those killed were card carrying Hamas members. As such they were representing an organization dedicated and to the destruction of Israel!. Some innocent demonstrators!
Throwing stones, planting bombs, burning tires, trying to breach the border of a sovereign country - that’s what you consider “unarmed” innocent peaceful protesters? Sorry, but that’s kinda delusional. What if they showed up at your house doing that, with your family inside?
Hamas official, Dr. Salah Badawil, has just announced that of the “62 people martyred, 50 were Hamas.”
https://www.nationalreview.com/news/gaza-protests-50-hamas-terrorists-ki...
Of course this squarely conflicts with the agenda of the NYT. So, of course, the NYT won't report it.
Let's face it. Hamas won. Thanks to Western news media like the NYT.
Ivanka’s dress?? She should be in sack cloth or better yet, no there. Shame on the shameless
The constant focus on demonizing Israel by the NYT is disturbing. Why not place blame on the US congressmen and senators who voted to move the embassy to Jerusalem in 1995? All president Trump did was to honor a congressional mandate.
There wouldn't be any deaths, in Gaza, if Hamas terrorists and hate filled Gazans didn't mob the Israeli border. They want a one state solution, with Israel wiped off the map.
NYT reporters do little to cover up their one sided reporting.
The Chosen People can do no wrong, as God is on their side.
Is there any wonder why religion is the curse of the human race, esp. those religions with strict doctrines such as the Orthodox Jews now in power in Israel?
if there is a god, perhaps his/her justice will prevail and right all these wrongs against the Palestinians.
The Orthodox are not in power in Israel, though they are part of the ruling coalition. Hardly anyone in Israel believes that Chosen People nonsense.
Actually, the Chosen People do plenty wrong. That is why a full 10-day period between Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur is dedicated to repentance.
However, now that Hamas has admitted the lion's share of those killed were terrorists - it is clear their actions were justified.
So why not direct your attention to the 'Orthodox' Muslims who have perpetrated the wrongs against the Palestinians?
Israel has already made peace with Egypt and Jordan - giving up about half its land mass in the process. It has offered 97% of the West Bank and has already left Gaza. What are the Palestinians holding out for?
If the Arabs had accepted the UN Partition Plan in 1947, they would be dancing today as well, maybe even studying and winning Nobel Prizes instead of flying fire bombs. Palestinians dance when Israelis are murdered.
The kindling had already been smoldering for decades, then Trump added a very large, very flammable timber to the fire of discontent by fulfilling his uninformed campaign promise to move the U.S. Embassy in Israel to Jerusalem. Any idiot could have predicted the outcome. It took a profound idiot to make it happen.
Under Netenyahu Israel , which once could claim the mantel to the highest moral ground on earth, is now just another wanna be bully flexing it’s overbuilt up muscles. Too bad, they have lots of brains there going to waste.
I think the NYT needs to appoint a psychologist in evaluating comments.. Aside from the usual anti-Israel rantings, few if any of which actually state anything of substance (no, calling it apartheid is false/phony), there are the alleged (who knows) Jewish responders claiming to be ashamed, embarrassed to be Jewish. Now, now, calm down. 1. First, ask yourselves, what would you rather be (think hard) and 2. Isn't that feeding into the anti-Semitic claim that "all Jews" are to be blamed for anything Israel does/says. Who will take the "blame" for all their hi-tech and medical innovations, for the thousands (no exaggeration) of Syrians they aided medically over the last 6+ years, for absorbing a greater number of Jewish refugees from Arab lands, having to flee for their lives in 1948 onwards? For the Ethiopian Jews who suffered but now are Israel? etc.
I, and many others, am/are not ashamed. And thank G-d for assisting us.
A Hamas official has now acknowledged that 50 of the Palestinians alleged to have been killed during the border riots on Monday and Tuesday were members of Hamas. In an interview with the Palestinian Baladna news outlet, Dr. Salah Bardawil said: "In the last rounds of confrontations, if 62 people were martyred, 50 of them were Hamas”. An excerpt from the interview is available on YouTube at:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-XCxLJi7po
According to Islamic Jihad, three members of its Saraya al-Quds military wing were killed.
All the attention is about current Hamas action vs. IDF action.
And so of course Israeli's can in that way excuse the murder.
Left unspoken is the desperation of Palestinian non ethnic Jews from the relentless cruelty.
Advocates of Israeli like to cite history such as America getting away with stealing much of Mexico. America does in fact have a long history of atrocities. Maybe America and Israel will continue forever these notions of success. 1.6 million Muslims will forever breed desperate counter actions around the World until America and Israel implode to decency.
Jews had no interest for millennia in Ottoman welcome to live in Palestine. Incompetent imperialist Americans enabled the Mid Eastern ghetto created by the secular proponents of a "Chosen People" who reject Reform and Assimilated Judaism in favor of reviving primitive Bible ethos. I hope and suspect that young American Jews and non-Jews everywhere are disgusted. I grew up as part of American Jewish universal tikkun olam. Hopefully sooner or later young people will reject Joshua's slaughter of Canaanites.
These were NOT peaceful demonstrators. They were armed, some with guns, others with grenades and Molotov cocktails. Stones can kill you incidentally; would any of you decrying the use of force like to be attacked by a mob throwing stones at you? This was NOT a peaceful March singing Kumbaya. The stated intent of Hamas, which organized this “event” was to destroy the border fence, enter Israel and take it over. Why do so many of you cling to some notion of peaceful people just singing songs?
Hamas incidentally has claimed 50 of the dead yesterday as Hamas operatives including 8 killed in a gun battle; so much for Kumbaya. Islamic Jihad has claimed another 3. Those that died were asking to be “martyred”; they were not innocents. So sad so many of you choose to believe the lies disseminated by Hamas. Trust me; they’d kill you too if they could.
And today, more of the truth comes out: Hamas admits, in Arabic on Palestinian media, that 50 of those killed Monday were Hamas operatives. So not "unarmed peaceful protesters".
Not to mention how dozens of those 60 were killed when firing on Israeli soldier and employing explosives.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-official-50-of-the-people-killed-in-...
“There was a Nakba,” he wrote in Tuesday’s paper, using the Arabic term for the “catastrophe” of the formation of Israel and the loss of Palestinians’ homes. “The Arabs of Palestine underwent expulsion. Tens of millions of people throughout the entire world, including Jews, underwent similar expulsion. But only the Palestinians adopted an ethos of rejectionism, victimhood, suffering and death.”
Only the Palestinians adopted an ethos of rejectionism, victimhood... seriously?
Restraint = 60 dead
No Restraint = several times 60?
Unbelievable attempt at spin!
How can these people live with themselves?
When tens of thousands are rushing to breach your country's border and murder your populace, then 60 IS restraint.
Hello Jim D:
A hamas spokesperson has verified that 50 of the 62 dead were their own terrorist operatives.
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I can live with myself. I am repulsed and infuriated when people choose to become terrorists. Terrorists deserve what they get, because what they set out to do is to terrorize and murder innocent people. And if 50 of the 62 dead were TERRORISTS, then the other 12 died because of them.
Thoughtful reflection by Israelis? Thoughts and prayers with the Palestinians? Israel hasn’t seriously thought about its future in a long time. If ever.
Hamas claims that 50 of the 62 casualties were their operatives. So why are we talking about unarmed innocent civilians?
"Hamas claims that 50 of the 62 casualties were their operatives. So why are we talking about unarmed innocent civilians?"
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Yes, WHY????? Because people have their own agendas, even if those agendas are mired in lies and deceit. And also because anti-Semitism is omnipresent. Those are the only 2 reasons I can think of at the moment.
Israel, like the United States, is a divided society. About 60 per cent fear and hate Palestinians and think they are less than human. They will find it hard to learn to live peacefully with them and to resolve disputes fairly. About 40 per cent, mostly the college educated, see them as people like themselves, human beings, and hope to live in peace with them. Strong and moral political leadership would facilitate this outcome. However, it is lacking.
You get such statistics from where...
Diogenes:
Morality and INTEGRITY being EVERYTHING. But you are dealing with hamas, netanyahu, and trump...not much morality and integrity anywhere in that bunch.
Tragically, the birth rate among Palestinians is three times that of Israelis. So the problems in Gaza will just get worse and life there will be worth less. That is the tragedy. This is just the latest chapter. The problem gets worse all the time.
The only solution is improvement in the education and standard of living for Palestinians, and especially for women's rights, education, and support under Islam.
That is not going to happen. So the size of the tragedy and the amount of fallout from the eventual collapse grows larger each year.
Indeed, with the exception of the Balkan wars, nearly all conflicts in the world since the 90s have been in countries with very high birth rates. This issue has been and continues to be ignored by the local populations as well as international organizations.
Ultra Orthodox rates are just as high if not higher, and now the rates among the two religious groups are equal.
Palestinian babies are not a tragedy.
I spend a lot of time with Israelis, in Israel and abroad. There is a minority who are deeply troubled by what is happening in Israel and pained by the knowledge that Israeli fences in a vast population of mostly innocent people for generations in order to survive. Some of them speak out courageously after events like this.
But I am sad to say that most Israelis are indeed blase about the suffering of Palestinians. Their own lives are busy and good and they don't want to be bothered by the pain of others or constrained by high principles. They see the world in black and white terms - those who are for them and against them - and they have no sympathy for those who they see as against them. They have been taught to do anything necessary to survive, and I rarely get a sense of any limits on what they would do if necessary.
The generation who founded Israel had a sense of ethics and faith that is largely missing among Israelis under 50 today. There are still vestiges of these in Israeli institutions - the courts and even the Defense Force. But as a people, Israelis have grown materialistic, smug, and hardened to the suffering of others, epitomized in the person they've elected as PM.
A beautiful, promising country, but Israelis seem to have lost their soul in the process of building and defending it. I worry that seeds of unspeakable suffering for their children and grandchildren, and very possibly the whole world are being planted day by day.
And what would you like the Israeli's to do? Perhaps yell "death to all Palestinians," or just give them the entire state of Israel?
send them to Sweden
With a couple of exceptions, I notice the exact same thing as ChadiB describes, in the middle-class and upper-class Israelis that I know. It is, frankly, sickening to me and my husband every time we speak to them about Israeli politics. They're mired in the lies that they repeat to themselves to justify their callousness. It's like they inhabit a bubble in which they cannot reason. Lately, they've been sounding like it would also be perfectly fine with them if we blew the Iranian population to death. And let me play my card here...I'm a Jew, and for me that will always mean that a truthful history matters.
This is a challenging issue. Israel must realize they are not David but Goliath in this conflict. If there is going to be peace and a 2 state solution it must come from them. Some may disagree or that Israel has done enough, but the reality is Israel holds all the power and the cards.
Charles, and if hamas does not want peace, but has said that their intention is the destruction of the state of Israel, and the annihilation of the Jewish people...????? How, then, does Israel hold all the power, and all the cards? When you are dealing with murderous lunatics and fanatics like hamas...? I am afraid that Israel cannot fix or change murderers and criminals like hamas. hamas would sacrifice every single Palestinian, including children, to destroy Israel and kill Jews. hamas is the Palestinian "leadership." They do not give a dman about their people. We all have our crosses to bear: We have trump and the gop, Israel has netanyahu, and the Palestinians have hamas. Unless we get rid of all these villains, there will never be peace. There will never be anything good. And: Israel HAS DONE ENOUGH. Everything that Israel has done in the efforts of peace has been crushed by hamas and their ilk. They do not want peace; they want to destroy Israel, kill the Jewish people, and completely move in, and take over.
What was shown on the BBC coverage does not jibe with the portrayal of armed protesters. All I saw were protesters with rocks not guns.
We can blame Trump and Netanyahu for the murders and injuries that happened.
Trump has instigated more violence that could have been avoided.
I wonder what kind of a deal he got from Netanyahu to move the American Embassy.
$$$, what else? or a hotel or two for Ivanka, and the rest of the crew to play with, or another way to launder criminal funds.
What you saw on the BBC? Does that mean that's a complete picture? Britain has been anti-Israel for decades. And let's not even begin to speak about Britain's anti-Semitism. My friend, who is Jewish and has a Jewish last name, was verbally attacked at a gathering in London by supposedly hip, artistic, forward thinking Brits. And that was 10 years ago.
Jean: The invaders were armed with rocks, knives, clubs, pipe bombs, and Molotov cocktails. Their intention was to kill as many Israelis as possible, and if they could, also abduct some to be held for ransom. These invaders were incited and encouraged by hamas to do this; 50 of the dead were identified by a hAMAS spokesperson as members of the terrorist group.
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trump is a criminal, an imbecile, a traitor, a liar, and a greed-and-sex driven lout. I don't know quite what netanyahu is...but whatever it is, it is not good.
There is indeed a problem, an ongoing problem, with imbalanced use of force by the Israeli military, and a (very defensive and racist) lack of empathy among the Israeli population. However, it's important to emphasize strongly here the cynicism of the Hamas leadership. They have incited this action, knowing the likely consequences because the Israeli authorities absolutely would not tolerate a breach of the fence. The Hamas leaders are creating a category of "suicide protestors", not people with bombs (and they shouldn't be put in that category), but people provoking their own possible violent deaths (and because they were in a crowd, and many of them were of an age where people exaggerate their own ability to survive, most of them surely assumed that, after all, they'd live--and most of them did live). While the Hamas leadership certainly has multiple goals with this tactic, there are good reasons to think that mainly it's a way of diverting attention from Hamas' inability to delivery anything positive to the Gazan population. And the casualties are likely to be an effective way to upset people in Gaza in a way that will make them that much less likely to support the sort of negotiations with other factions that would give the Palestinians the strongest hope of being able to pressure the Israeli government into real negotiations (probably only with a post-Netanyahu government).
Palestinian culture in both Gaza and the West Bank celebrates martyrdom. They say they are stronger than Israelis because whereas Jews want to live, the Palestinians are not afraid of death. This is their indoctrination, along with preaching hatred of Jews to the youngest members of their society. While Hamas provides very well for its leaders and their families, it deliberately keeps their masses mired in a destitution of their own making. This provocation at the border, and at the Kerem Crossing where Israel transmits fuel, electricity, and food and humanitarian goods to the Gazans, is a cynical public relations stunt, same as their previous wars against Israel.
Let's the real facts straight. Who was the first one to instigate chaos and a reaction to a peaceful protest of Palestinians 700 yards from the Palestinian border. Why was a protest which included women and children? Even the toothless tiger, Hamas was supporting the peaceful protests. Creating a provocation, creating a muddled scenario so that real facts on the ground cannot be discerned has become Israel's MO to mow down Palestinians. Even if Israel was retaliating to the stones and silly rockets going nowhere, Israel response cannot justify the sheer superior power and force of Isreal's army.The Israeli State and politicians have even lied to their own citizens confusing them into doubting their own consciences. Shame on Israel. Raising the specter of the Holocaust for all their inhumane treatment of Palestinians is sullying and insulting the memories of those who died and suffered. As for the other usual reason, Israel's safety ?That is beyond any reasoning or belief when they have artillery, planes, bombs and nuclear capability so sophisticated they are not even second to us.
There are good insights here. Clearly, Hamas should never have even been allowed to field candidates for office or hold office.
I am no expert on managing the defense of a border, but I am not prepared to agree that live fire cannot be used against unarmed civilians when those civilians are cooperating with armed militants. What constitutes reasonable defensive force relates to the total threat at the moment from the perspective of the person subject to attack.
Is anyone surprised by this? Israel hasn't merely drifted to the extreme right - they built an expressway to get there as fast as possible. The only thing that ever kept them in check was the USA, and with the Republicans in complete control of the US government, they have a free hand to be as brutal as they like. And they like it a lot.
Everyman: Please comment on the role of hamas, hezbollah, and the plo, and what their philosophy and policies have done to help or harm the Palestinians. In truth, it is not Israel that is the enemy of the Palestinians. Israel has many times tried to broker peace, but the Palestinian LEADERSHIP has rejected any and all solutions, and has instead called for the destruction of Israel, and the annihilation of the Jewish people. And just WHO is that leadership????? Lo and behold: hamas, and their ilk! I detest trump and the gop, and I do not like Netanyahu, but let us put the blame for this brutality squarely where it lies.
As an American Jew who was born before Israel was founded and who grew up to admire it and watch it flourish, I confess that my faith in it has evaporated. Under Netanyahu's leadership, the nation from where I sit in New York seems to have been fatally corrupted. The PM's aberrant partnering with Trump, a hollow, venal man whose ignorance of history, diplomacy, race and, indeed, humanity, simply staggers the mind and vividly underscores the desperate and immoral path Israel has chosen. And to hear American rabbis, on the one hand, praise the deliberately inflammatory move of an embassy by an unschooled president and, on the other, lament the loss of life at the hands of Israeli solders is deeply offensive to me and to Judaism itself.
While I am not Jewish, I have the utmost respect for you and people like you who have only the betterment of all mankind in your heart,
And while I AM Jewish, I have zero respect for you and your armchair quarterbacking from the safety of the United States.