I was struck by Keret’s comment about the damage done to Israeli soldiers. Really?
Why didn’t he wonder about what it was like to be a the parent of a Palestinian young person in this context? A parent of a person (yes, I said it) not shooting into crowds but rather dead, wounded or suffering in a defacto Israeli prison?
A bizarre erasure of the other and adoption of the position of victim, a victim with a large and aggressive military.
I don’t discount the trauma likely suffered by the soldiers but they’re behind the gun, not in front of it.
6
People here complain about "Israel". I see it differently. I complain about the Conservatives currently running Israel. If you want Israel to act differently, help them elect a Progressive government.
How do you do this? By not making the Israelis live in the fear they have since the first Intifada.
Yes, it means taking the long game, but things have only gotten worse for the Palestinians in the last twenty years. A reset on their poor direction is in order.
1
This is the perfect issue.
It's something most of us know next to nothing about -- and, at the same time, something we can get all worked up about as if, whatever our point of view, we were absolutely right.
How about this for a concept?
First, we all agree that the dispute is unresolvable through negotiation.
Second, we all agree that Israel gets to stay.
Third, we all agree that the Palestinian are entitled, at a minimum, to decent housing (right where they are), potable running water and electricity 24/7, and 3 meals a day at a cost equal to that Israelis typically pay and made of food as fresh and tasty as that served in Israel.
Fourth, we all agree to force down the throats of everyone involved an international peace-keeping force made up of un-hackable, un-disarmable armed robots located throughout Israel, Gaza, and the West Bank at least every 100 square feet. Anyone who throws a Molotoff cocktail or fires a bullet or missile will be tracked in real time and immediately neutralized. Some billionaire can pay for it.
Got a better idea?
I found this article unintentionally hilarious. The one guy quoted is supposed to be concerned about the lack of empathy amongst his neighbors; but not for the dead palestinians, for the poor israeli soldiers who "had" to shoot unarmed civilians. My God these people are deluded.
4
It has never been about Jews living in that land. Jews have lived there for hundreds of years or more. It has always been about the US and the UK deciding that part of that land was to be a Jewish state without asking the people who actually lived there whether that was ok.
1
It is depressing to see how much prejudice, anger and lack of empathy is reflected in these comments. To be sure, Hamas has a violent ideology, but I suspect most readers here would eventually embrace violence if they were forcibly ejected from their grandparents' land and confined to a large prison camp with no hope of escape or improvement to their lives.
If a future US government - to right a not-so-ancient wrong - supported the return of the Cherokee tribes to North Georgia, and if those tribes by force of arms dispossessed my neighbors and me, and herded us into camps - I think I'd start making petrol bombs too.
2
A bullet that kills a civilian is NEVER justified, period.
3
Religion wasn’t always a divisive line between Muslims and Jews if you look back not that long ago, in many northern African countries
Thanks to the Western powers, the establishment of Israel obviously changed all that - with all the nativist American sentiment these days (ironic for a country founded by immigrants), surely one could understand how the displaced must feel, if not agree with their methods, esp since they are very much treated as second class citizens
12
Abbas, Hamas, and Netanyahu are engaged in a race to the bottom. Right now it's neck and neck. No matter which one of the three wins the trace, the losers will be Israelis and Palestinians who desire and need a just peace.
10
If you consult your history books you will see that officials of the Clinton Administration negotiated a full settlement and peace between Israel and Palestinians in the person of Yasser Arafat. However, shortly before the parties signed a final agreement, Arafat told the negotiators that he would not agree to the deal unless Palestinians had a full right of return to the land encompassing Israel. That deal point was a non-starter from the Israeli point of view.
There will never be a "just peace" unless the right of return is off the table. Anyone who thinks Israelis or Palestinians will back down from their respective positions on the right of return is a fool.
1
As a US taxpayer, I am tired of "footing the bill" for Israel's actions like these.
I want the US to stop all "aid" to Israel so US citizens can have a clear conscience.
Israel can do as it wants...but without US support. Spent the money here on health care, infrastructure, etc. I would love to see a poll of US citizens on this matter.
30
This situation is unfortunate.
The solution: As before, Gaza becomes part of Egypt and West Bank part of Jordan.
Alas, Egypt and Jordan don't want that. Why do you think that is?
7
This cynical Palestinian leadership dynamic has been going on a long time. As Golda Meier stated, "We can forgive them for killing our children. We cannot forgive them forcing us to kill theirs."
It was hardly reported, but Hamas encouraged the rioters to break through the fence and advised on the best weapons for the mayhem they were planning against Israeli civilians. These were not peaceful, unarmed demonstrations. Anyone who can't grasp that soldiers with their families at their back will actually shoot, merits a Darwin Award.
18
I can't read this article without a sort of stomach-lurching feeling of sickness.
It seems there is always a new low: not just in the brutality committed by the Israeli army, but in the ability of the media and observers to condone that brutality, to explain it away.
Yet there is a certain undeniable hubris in the NYT choosing to publish THIS article, at this moment. When one considers that the only hope, the only counter, to this murderous behavior is righteous outrage from the rest of the world, how is it justifiable to publish an article that focuses instead on aggrieved Israeli feelings?
If this incident resembles anything, objectively, it is the Las Vegas shooting, where a sniper methodically targeted and killed upwards of 50 people and horribly wounded several hundred others. How is such an incident appropriately and justly covered? By focusing on the victims - humanizing them, telling their stories, conveying their pain.
Why isn't this mass shooting covered the same way? Would it not be good and humane journalism to go INTO Gaza to see the effects of the massacre? To go into the hospitals, describe the carnage inflicted by snipers' bullets, meet the families, hear the victims' stories? Would it not put this incident in its proper perspective, make it more real, more horrifying?
Instead, the NYT chooses to interview Israelis. And thus sends the message that gunning down protesters in cold blood is, unthinkably, now acceptable behavior. A new and shocking low.
23
The lack of empathy is not exclusive. And old Jewish friend of ours once recently bemoaned that Israel was justified in everything they did to Palestinians. Why? As she wailed . . . The Holocaust! This, some seventy years later. I felt no great sadness for her either.
11
when did Israel lose it's moral compass?
16
"A day after their soldiers killed 60 mostly unarmed Palestinians in Gaza, Israelis were defiant, defensive or blasé."
Wait till the shoe is on the other foot. I will look at the news to see how the Israelis react then!
17
NYT reporters Isabel Kershner and David M. Halbfinger wrote "That fundamental imbalance — heavily armed soldiers firing on mostly unarmed demonstrators, many of them bent on breaching the fence — elicited responses of defiance or defensiveness in some, shame in others, and a healthy dose of served-them-right in some corners. "
"and a healthy dose of served-them-right in some corners. "? A "healthy" dose? So now the NYT is condoning the killing of unarmed protesters? Has Trump tweeted to congratulate you yet on your new attitude towards protesters? Sad.
19
In this case, "Healthy dose" simply means "a lot." It does not mean what you happen to think it does. Have you never heard the expression before?
1
You don't seem to understand that the journalists are reporting on the attitudes of people they interviewed, and that those opinions are not the opinions of the authors.
Both Israel and Palestine have birth rates that are way too high. There is only so much space in that part of the world, particularly when it comes to arable land. When there are too many people competing for too few resources, conflict results. Israel's birth rate is responsible for their push into the West Bank, Palestine's birth rate is responsible for their attempts to push into Israel. If both populations were to reduce there birth rates to those in Europe or East-Asia, there would be peace.
The third world thinks that we in the developed world are just going to step aside and let them steal our resources once they've finished using up everything they have thanks to their absurdly high birth rates.
We should not only refuse to do so, we should arm ourselves to the teeth and refuse to let anyone in until the third world brings down its birth rate. This is an earth of finite resources. There are already too many people. If the third world doesn't do its part then all of our efforts in the developed world to tackle climate change and poverty will all be for naught.
All of our problems will be easier to solve with fewer people on the earth. There was a great piece in this paper today warning about the potential for a feedback loop created by air conditioning in the world to doom the planet.
Tough decisions ahead for the species.
6
While I have much respect for Mr. Keret, I disagree with him on two counts. First, he seems more concerned for the feelings of Israeli soldiers who kill unarmed Palestinians, than for the actual casualties. Second, Mr. Keret believes that these soldiers "won't come back the same" when they return home next Shabbat. Sadly, most soldiers will be unchanged. Hate and lack of empathy are a national epidemic, taught from infancy onward.
You've got to be taught
To hate and fear,
You've got to be taught
From year to year,
It's got to be drummed
In your dear little ear
You've got to be carefully taught.
21
I suspect it may be high time for both sides in this conflict to admit that the two-state solution is in fact dead. That the only solution is to form one-state with full civil rights for all living within the borders of Israel. This will test both sides: can the Palestinians set aside their grievances, their hatred and show they truly care about the future generations. Can Israel set aside its grievances, hatred and demonstrate it is truly the strong and self confident democratic state that it claims to be. Both sides would show the rest of the Middle East that many years of deeply and more often than not justifiably held grievances can be set aside for the benefit of all. Whilst this may be a very, very hard step to take, there surely must be people on both sides who abhor the moral vacuum that leads to Hamas using its people as potential cannon fodder and Israel blithely shooting and killing kids with noting but a rock in their hands.
6
It is hard to avoid being blasé about deaths that are cynically being instigated by your enemy. You are blase if you hurt someone, if the person you hurt has given you no choice. The criminals here are not the Israelis but the people who place children in the line of fire. What mother should be encouraged to bring a baby with a lung condition to an area where rioters are faced with tear gas? What teen should be encouraged to throw a bottle with gasoline at armed soldiers who otherwise would not be shooting at him? Note that it is the Hamas leadership that revels in and celebrates each death. The optics here are the whole point to them. This article treats a blase attitude as the big sin, and pays no attention to the murderers of children who celebrate each death, the Hamas leadership. Not one person who has criticized Israeli actions has proposed any alternative behavior or response that Israel should have adopted to prevent this.
17
I guess you don’t get it, living under occupation is worse than dying of tear gas or being shot to death.
11
Gaza is not occupied. Israel pulled out years ago. Had the people living in Gaza chose the path of peace they would have had a blossoming region to live in. Instead they chose to riot and send missiles into Israel. Their decision.
3
In this case, the killers were those who pulled the trigger and gunned down unarmed protesters. That was not 'Hamas leadership'. It was Israeli army snipers.
You can present any number of philosophical contortions, but you can't deny that basic fact.
The alternative behavior that you are unable to conceive, and have somehow not heard presented in all the backlash, is NOT to shoot and kill unarmed protesters.
1
Hamas and the Palestinians got what they wanted, namely good photographs to show a sympathetic press. The fact that it cost 50 or 60 Palestinian lives is just a cost of doing business for Hamas. If Hamas really cared for the lives of Palestinians, they would build a peaceful state in Gaza, instead of spending so many of their resources in trying to get weapons, build tunnels to carry out terror operations and making life miserable for the Palestinian people and then displaying their misery to the press.
19
As long as both sides luxuriate in their righteousness, nothing will be done to stop the violence. I can think of nothing that will save them from their hatred of each other.
3
“I hope at least that each bullet was justified.”
But of course there are various notions of what is justified. The big US Jewish daily paper ran a featured article a few days ago called something like "Should the IDF be shooting Gaza Protesters". It turned out to be a dry legal discussion by an Israeli law professor and it answered the question with a definite "Maybe".
If you wanted to make a moral judgement, which Israeli and American Zionists clearly fear, you should ask if the shooting was necessary. Also you should ask which side was right in the underlying dispute. Also you should ask if it was right for the UN in 1948 to decide to split the territory 50/50, and thereby deprive half the Arabs, who were the overwhelming majority, of any rights at all.
If these questions were able to come out of the limbo to which the Zionists have been able to exile them, I don't think it would be hard to see what was justified.
11
The territory was divided 50/50 when Jordan was created (whose majority by the way are Palestinian Arabs). The area called Palestine (the other half that remained after Jordan was created) was split again to create Israel and whatever the entity would have been called had the Arabs accepted the division. They didn’t, they went to war and LOST. Five times. And they’re still complaining about it.
3
What are "mainstream" Israelis? This is a very unfortunate label that should be banished from future reporting. The label suggests consensus when your own article reports diverging opinions.
2
Jews living for generations all over the world have the right to live in Israel while Palestinians who had lived in Palestine for generations and now expelled have no right to return . People forget that it is Israel that are the aggressors and occupiers Palestinians have no rights whatsoever.
17
Wholesale slaughter of defenseless Palestinians is never going to be acceptable under any conditions. The Israelis took the low road. Their cavalier response to the killings is as despicable as our President who arranged for the relocation of our embassy to Jerusalem against most sage advice. This is Trump’s Folly certainly.
10
Wholesale slaughter? Hamas itself has admitted that 50 of 60 killed were Hamas operatives trying to breach the border. To do what? Have coffee with the Israelis on the other side? Their intent has been, and will continue to be for the foreseeable future, is to infiltrate Israel and to kill women and children.
2
The concept of ‘peaceful protests’ certainly has changed during my liefetime. Apparently, it now includes planting explosives, throwing fire bombs, attempted invasions across sovereign borders to commit acts of terrorism....Yes, the times they are a changin’.
14
Israel and the US knew this day was coming for months! Their leaders could have easily prepared and made plans to diffuse the situation weeks ago before the protests even began. They could have expanded the fishing zones, relaxed the import of vital foods and medical supplies at the border crossings and agreed to an increase in border crossing for women and children looking to visit friends and family in the West Bank and commemorate the Nakba in peace while the US Embassy was opened and Israelis celebrated their 70th year of Independence. Heck! They could have even invited a few brown people to the US Embassy opening as a symbol of unity, balance, and US evenhanded leadership. But they couldn’t be bothered to even fake an attempt and their so-called roll as an “honest broker” this time.
Instead the government cracked down with force, open threats of violence, and a dramatic increase in rhetoric in the lead up to the protests and independence celebrations. They proceed to kill unarmed civilians for 6 straight weeks and then, once things reached an intolerable boiling point on the most crucial day of the year, they proceed to massacre scores of unarmed civilians in the name of “self-defense” without an iota of remorse of even the pretense of restraint. The only regret they have shown this week is that they killed just enough innocent Palestinians to make headlines in the US for a one whole day.
5
The US should ban the entry into our country of any member of the IDF who killed an unarmed civilian. Any who attempt to enter should be detained and then delivered to the International Criminal Court at The Hague.
8
If Palestinians wish to bum-rush the Israeli national border in the hundreds, all masked and many armed, the net result will be these invaders shot and killed. No question about it. We know that without having to go through with it. The fact that they actually went through with it speaks to their desperation and demonstrates the utter disregard their so-called "leaders" have for them; Hamas has always been willing to sacrifice their own. This time they were blatant about it and cannot deny it- there is video of Hamas riot leaders urging their people to get closer and to breach the fence.
16
Jared Kushner did a superb job of Middle East peace. I wonder where the circus train is headed next and how many more people he will manage to kill in the name of peace.
7
This is a bad situation for everyone involved. Both sides need to figure out a way to work out a two-state solution or both the Israelis and the Palestinians are doomed.
2
Some interviews producing anecdotal evidence of current opinion and we're supposed to shake our fists at the callousness of Israelis?
2
You can deny it all you want but the Palestinians have agreed to everything that Israel has asked except to roll over and die.
Let nobody pretend who has the power in the this relationship. Blaming the victims may make the local bully feel better but it can't stop the truth.
7
Some interviews producing anecdotal evidence of public opinion and we're supposed to shake our fists at the callousness of Israelis?
2
as per usual, Hamas, yes Hamas, is now reporting that of the sixty people killed yesterday-52, were Hamas militant operatives. Moreover, an independent item shows the Hmas order that the goal was to break into Israel and capture as many Israelis as possible using the knives and small arms that they were told not to use until they broke through the fence. Do not take my word look it up. Point being for all the photo suggestion of a peaceful group of civilians, it is clear from Hamas that this was an operation to get their operatives, combatants into Israel for the purpose of abduction. P.S., Hamas opeartives have just fired machine gun fire at Kibbutz homes in Israel.
14
How many lives does it take to place a lightbulb of peace?
1
Compare these two comments:
Assad who everyone agrees has massacred women and children. “First of all, we are fighting the terrorists."
IDF who has killed women and children among other Palestinian adults. " at least 10 of the Palestinians killed a day earlier were "known terrorists " "
It's not people that were killed it was "terrorists."
3
The sub-headline for this article is extremely misleading. The Israelis interviewed for this article expressed complicated emotions including pain, sadness, and fear along with defensiveness and defiance. None of the quotes suggested a blasé attitude. The article was well-done and nuanced but it was ruined by a headline that attempted to grab attention by mischaracterizing the contents and turning what is a complicated situation into the same old tropes that make peaceful dialogue impossible.
5
It's very simple. If Donald Trump had not moved the U. S. Embassy to Jerusalem, this incident would not have occurred. No deaths. No injuries.
7
These are not clashes, this was a massacre. Blame Hamas, but remember that it is Israel's blockade that impoverishes Palestinians.
4
It is Hamas’ policies that have resulted in their people’s desperation. Had they built land with business and industry, instead of attack tunnels, their people would have reaped the rewards of Israel’s withdrawal.
3
THIS TELLS A VERY DIFFERENT STORY.
According to Gazan sources (Salah Bardawil, May 15), at least 80% of the sixty-two casualties were Hamas operatives. How does that go unmentioned by writers here?
8
Uhhhm, here's a really, really easy and short answer: because it's the overwhelmingly 1000% pro-Israel nytimes! DUH!!!
3
It was interesting to me on my last trip to India that Russians and Israelis are equally disliked by waiters and hoteliers I encountered during my six months journey.
They drink too much, I heard, they're insensitive to local culture, they're personally impolite, they're loud, and they're racist.
That was the general impression, and it was interesting because I didn't solicit the insights.
Back home, in the Trump era, Israel, one sees, finds its main support, apart from those strange old Seinfeld NY emigrants in Florida, from evangelists, the most unwholesome and unlettered Americans.
9
An article in "The Daily Beast," a decidedly left-wing publication, that intelligently describes what's been going on in Gaza for years. How Israel has loosened travel between Gaza and Israel only to be bombed. How Hamas and Fatah fight each other and cut off supplies. How Hamas makes everything worse and convinces gullible people (like many NY Times' readers), about how evil Israel is, while destroying any possibility of a decent life for Gazans. Oh yeah, and then there's Egypt.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/how-gaza-became-hell-on-earth?ref=scroll
6
Business as usual for Bibi: Just mowing the grass.
6
Weren’t these demonstrators unarmed? Let’s call this what it really was: a masacre.
As a Jewish American, I am fed up and disgusted with Israel.
9
When tens of thousands come to the border with the clearly stated intention of crossing into Israel, and then killing Jews, it's not a "demonstration," it's an invasion attempt. The first responsibility of any government is to protect its citizens, and that's what Israel did.
Get serious. What would have happened Monday if the Israelis didn't defend the border? Here's a hint from the pro-Palestinian WashingtonPost reporting:
"While some said they would abide by official calls to keep the demonstrations peaceful, others talked about their enthusiasm to break into Israel and wreak havoc.
“We are excited to storm and get inside,” said 23-year-old Mohammed Mansoura. When asked what he would do inside Israel, he said, “Whatever is possible, to kill, throw stones.”
Two other young men carried large knives and said they wanted to kill Jews on the other side of the fence."
10
Disgraceful 'reporting.' Hamas has acknowledged that 50 of the 60 killed were Hamas members. This is why when it comes to unbiased reporting on the israeli-arab conflict the Times is dismissed as a major liar and distorter of what is actually happening on the ground.
10
Of course "each bullet was justified."
How else could 1,700 Palestinians have been wounded and 50+ killed?
Justice was everywhere!
I am satisfied. Glad to hear all Israelis seem to be satisfied too. As their brave soldiers shoot down Palestinians by the hundreds, to defend their concentration camp subjugation of an entire people, trying to break free, because they resent being treated like caged animals at an abusive circus.
5
This should be added to any article about Hamas' peaceful protests or A UN focus solely on Israel (Jews) “The violence comes from those who reject the existence of the state of Israel in any location, Such a motivation, the destruction of a United Nations Member State, is so illegitimate as to not be worth our time in the Security Council, other than the time it takes to denounce it.” Ambassador Nicky Haley
12
One of the most exquisite euphemisms that I have ever read in the NYT: “mostly unarmed demonstrators”. Let’s present this as a nonviolent protest and inflame the passion of the left, but we can’t be reckless and blatantly lying, so it’s going to be “mostly unarmed”.
I don’t know about the fire-breathing anti-Israeli leftists, many of whom have posted comments here, but if I would be engaged in nonviolent protest for a worthy cause, I would stop and think if I would see next to me some armed thugs who have been exhorted to become martyrs by a leader of a terrorist organization.
A Palestinian state and improving life in Gaza are worthy causes, but if the Palestinians really want to do something about them, they should oppose Hamas at least as much as Israel.
What’s happening now at the Gaza-Israel border is a sinister masquerade organized by Hamas. Presenting it to the public in shades of half-truths and half-lies, the way the NYT is trying to do, will come to haunt it.
13
How appalling is the callousness and willful ignorance of the majority of Israeli citizens to the suffering and understandable rage of the human beings forced to live like animals in Gaza. I am Jewish, and proud of my heritage, but I am beyond distressed at what Israel has become, the logical result of an ill-conceived, messianic Zionist project. Shame on Israel, and shame on those Israeli citizens whose indifference to, and/or support of, the slaughter of desperate Gazans leaves one astonished at the tragic, historical irony. And shame on the United States for its continued support of this profound injustice.
8
Some people throwing rocks; burning tires; flying kites with crude bombs. Then there is the highly armed Israeli military snipers shooting a disabled woman in the stomach; shooting children. There is you umbalanced use of force.
I do believe there is an ever-growing number of compassionate Israelis who are tired of this killing and hate for people in Gaza. They are downtrodened and need help. Instead they continue to be marginalized, shot and killed....
...and all for banners in Jerusalem touting "We Love You President Trump" and a town square named after this bully.
Israel will see no peace until they become a compassionate people and atone for their past and make amends today.
6
Unfortunately, nobody cares about a bunch of dead Arabs. Not in Israel, not in the rest of the World, not even in the Arab World. This conflict will never end because all humanity's been lost. On all sides.
3
Reading all of the decidedly anti-Israel comments here is a sad, stark reminder of exactly why Israel is in this position in the first place: Peoples' raw antisemitism, double-standards, & demonization of the only Jewish state on earth.
All while numerous states, guilty of far, far worse violations and misdeeds, go unmentioned.
19
I think we all need to read deeper into the comments and not toss them into the pro-Israel vs. anti-Israel buckets.
A bunch of people lost their lives who have been living in terrible conditions in Gaza. That is the underlying issue--terrible conditions in Gaza.
What are people to do who live there? How can Israel feel secure but also help its neighbors?
Yes, that is actually possible. Someone has to break the cycle.
55
Maybe the Palestinians could start by using the supplies and money funneled into Gaza to build businesses and schools instead of tunnels to destruction.
3
Agreed.
Abbas, Hamas, and Netanyahu are engaged in a race to the bottom. Right now it's neck and neck. No matter which one of the three wins, the real losers will be Israelis and Palestinians who desire and need a just peace.
Salah Bardawil, Hamas spokesperson: "acknowledged that 50 of the 62 Palestinians reported killed during Gaza border riots on Monday and Tuesday were members of the Islamist terrorist group, bringing the total number of known members of terror groups among the fatalities up to 53."
The surprising thing is Hamas actually admitting it was them! Fooled you for a while, though.
12
How about an article on the Arabs' feelings on the Munich Massacre at the 1972 Olympics? In fact, maybe you can write about the whole world's lack of reaction to it.
14
The Palestinian people are ruled by autocratic terror organizations the declare, in their founding documents, the extermination of Israel and all Jews and continue to manipulate sympathy terrorism to suit their genocidal goals. Hamas sends young people to cross the border into Israel on a mission of conquest and Israel is supposed to just say OK?
Questions 1. What are the rights of women in Gaza and the West Bank? 2. How many gays were murdered there. 3. How many Christians have been threatened and left or have been murdered in Bethlehem since 1975? 4. How many honor killings in areas under their control? 5.What efforts are made by these terrorist regimes to create a vibrant functioning society?
Answers 1. - Zero 2. 2018 - 23 3. 41,238 have left, 11 have been murdered 4. 14 5. Far too few.
It is the terrorists that are keeping hate alive. If such threats were made against the US, the reaction would be much the same. Terrorism is Israel's Peal Harbor.
11
Wow if one were to follow the same rationale as the Israel’s leading newspaper columnist of the Nakaba culture to be the blame then we will soon be hearing about why remembering the holocaust of the Jewish people does not allow the Israelis to move forward. It is tragic that denying the humanity of the others has not disappeared
4
“You feel like saying, ‘Think about the hundreds of Israeli soldiers having to shoot unarmed people and kill and maim them,’” he said. “They could be your children or your siblings. They’ll come home on Saturday, and I’m betting they won’t come back the same.”
... maybe he should be more considered about the people being killed. Weak response
5
How did the New York Times reporter miss the hundreds of Israelis who protested Gaza violence? https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-hundreds-protest-in-tel-avi...
4
How you see this depends on who's narrative you believe. According to the Palestinians, it was a peaceful protest. According to the Israelis, militants with weapons were mixed in with the crowd, using them as cover to breach the barrier and cause chaos in Israel.
I wasn't there. I don't know.
It is standard procedure for guerilla movements to manipulate situations to cause their enemies to injure and or kill civilians. This technique has been in practice since the Boers fought the British in South Africa. It looks like Hamas knows this, they did it, and it worked. The sympathy that this buys them is apparently worth more to them than the lives that were lost.
Anyone storming a barrier protected by armed soldiers should expect to get injured or killed. The soldiers are there and are armed for a reason. Whether you believe that their reason for the barrier is valid or not, the soldiers were not going to allow the protesters to breach the barrier, and that they were going to defend it with lethal force. It is naive to believe otherwise.
15
It needs to be said that the fence that some of these protestors were attempting to breach is located one mile INSIDE Gaza, and thus they were killed inside their own country.
The “borders” and closed military zones cut through 1/3 of arable land of Gaza.
Aside from the West Bank occupation and Gaza blockade, what gives Israel the right to install snipers INSIDE Palestinian land and kill Palestinians on their side? And why isn’t this violation of international law reported every time we talk about Gaza? Think about that.
10
Hamas acknowledged 50 of their fighters were killed. They are internationally recognized as a terrorist group.
Apparently their role in this does not cause you concern. Why not?
8
Israel withdrew from Gaza in a ‘land for peace’ test case, which the ‘Palestinians’ have failed miserably...because instead of peace, what Israel got was 15,000+ rockets and a terrorist base camp on their doorstep. Consequently, the placement of Israel’s security fence and buffer zone is exactly where it needs to be.
5
I eagerly await a similar piece asking the opinion of a random sampling of Americans the next time our military blows up a wedding in Pakistan or a school in Yemen.
5
I consider myself a friend of Israel and will always defend its right to exist behind secure borders and at peace with its neighbors.
I am all the more sickened at the sight of this beautiful and brave country, founded on democratic ideals, becoming transformed more and more to a heartless, militarized country, trampling on the plight of Palestinians and "celebrating" and drinking champagn with the witless Trumps while its army massacres unarmed civilians including children and youths. Shame on you for decades to come.
10
This was a massacre of human beings including children.
Sadly, the Netanyahu regime is exactly like the Trump regime. They both are trying to control the media and present false facts and are focused on maintaining support from their voting blocks so both men can continue to maintain control so they then can leverage their positions for personal financial gain.
From what I have read the Palestians have been trying to have talks with the Israeli's to try to avoid a situation like this and Netanyahu has turned them down. For the most part, what appears in US news is still filtered through an Israeli point of view because even Dem legislators get funding from Jewish groups so calling these killings a massacre which is a very sensitive issue.
This is a David and Goliath situation, Israel has the army and the weapons, so to say the Palestians are a major threat is propaganda. It is just sad because I think the US is such a big country, full of humanitarians and resolution seekers yet because of we are controlled, IMO, by such an extreme and corrupt group of people that Trump attracts, the US is enabling the escalation of tension between the 2 groups.
There have been a lot of harsh words from both sides. It is distressing that rather than the role of an impartial negotiator , the US is represented by criminals, IMO, Kushner in particular, who are focused on their self interests and financial opportunities and do not have the best interests of the region in mind.
2
Question: is the role of journalists to relay Hamas’ propaganda?
Hamas has been promoting for years suicide bombers and they now innovate with mass kamikazes.
These people are not « unarmed demonstrators »: they attack the frontier with a very clear and explicit objective to invade Israel. What Hamas can no longer do with tunnels, they try to do it with mass attackers.
There is a vital danger for Israel to allow a breach in the frontier and to enable Hamas -that has a very clear and explicit objective of destroying Israel- to overcome the frontier.
When thousands of people attack your frontier what are you supposed to do? To say: « I have sinned, please enter and kill me? »
Hamas’ level of cynicism is amazing and so is the naivety of some journalists who don’t ask: why is the Hamas doing it (the answer being: because they are in a dead end and hated by Egypt as well as by the Palestinian Authority and they need martyrs to refuel their legitimacy) ? But love to blame the only possible response by Israel which is : not to enable an organization that want to destroy them to trespass the barrier that protects them from it.
17
How anyone can claim that these are “unarmed peaceful protesters” is beyond comprehension. It appears that the international community is now supporting Hamas terrorists in their stated objective, which is the destruction of Israel.
Again, beyond comprehension.
16
The Gazans have succeeded if their goal is to make Israel look bad and to make more people think of Israel as an evil aggressor. But if their goal is to improve their lives, to form some kind of state, to build a future - they’ve failed dismally, as they always do. The future they can build is not a return to the past that never was.
11
Israel took a fair number of Palestinians who crossed the fence into captivity, and released the audio/blurred video of one who says Hamas is behind all these protests/riots, busing people from near and far. 1. Israel didn't kill just anyone who got over the border 2. As above, nothing neutral about the last 6 weeks of protest 3. So, what is the solution to the overcrowding and poverty in Gaza?
That needs to be addressed in the U.N. Good luck, with the Syrian refugee issues, the murders of Christians in Indonesia, the Rohingya refugee crisis (and a partial genocide going on). Seriously, people in Gaza need to speak to the U.N staff there and ask if there's a way to emigrate. Who will take them in I don't know. Not Israel, this is not their problem. The very high birthrate, political instability, insufficient schooling - who will invest in such a place, for now?
7
We saw kids running AWAY from the fence being shot. The videos were shown on American TV. IDF teeeted that it knows exactly where every bullet Land’s.
A NYTimes journalist saw a young disabled woman get shot in the stomach right in front of him, far far from that fence. We read about it right here.
No amount of whitewashing and propaganda will change those facts. What the apologists for Israel’s actions achieve is to make the rest of the world recoil in revulsion.
6
In addition to the shameful display by the Trump family , his cronies and right wing Israelis at the ceremony of moving the American Embassy to Jerusalem - there was an event that describes the reaction of the the majority of Israelis to the horrific day at the Rabin square in Tel Aviv.
It was an exuberant celebration by tens of thousands of Israelis of winning the first place award for best song at the Eurovision annual competition .
The contrast between dozens of Palestinians being gunned down at the Gaza border in the afternoon and Israelis singing and dancing at the same night illustrated the prevailing state of mind in that country: indifference, numbness, acceptance, anything but serious attempt to solve the conflict.
Under its current leadership, Israel doesn’t really want peace with security, it wants peace with occupation.
2
I hope the Palestinians will keep up their largely nonviolent protests. It is the only thing that will work in their situation. It will expose the Israeli government for what it really is, an occupier that brutally subjugates another people. Gandhi was able to lead a mostly peaceful revolution that brought down the mighty British Empire. And perhaps the Israeli people will wake up to the horrors that their government is perpetrating and lobby them to stop.
1
Whether it’s an official border or not, there is a dividing line that protect Israelis ( including Arabs). When this line is breached by people who openly call for the death of the Jewish people, there’s an obligation to protect regardless of whether the invaders are armed.
The consequences of restraint may be worse than the unfortunate deaths of unarmed people purposefully placed In harm’s way.
10
Please report that Hamas turned away Israeli military aid today because it came from the Jews. Just as they have, in the past, rejected energy and clean water shipments because they came from the Jews. And two food distribution centers in Gaza were burned down in the past when the UN announced they had to cut back on food amounts.
And yet there are calls these days to rebuild Gaza. There are tens of millions of refugees in the world; I'm much more inclined to help those who are willing to accept help.
13
They don’t want aid from their oppressors. I wouldn’t either. It’s demeaning to bomb them one day and then show up with aid (and cameras for the photo-op) the next.
Aid groups from all over the world try to send supplies to Gaza but Israel blocks them. I’m sure Palestinians would accept aid from Norway.
I'm gping with blase. A so-called protest based on the Right of Return makes it obvious that a peaceful settlement is the very last thing on the minds of its organizers. The isea instead was to change an international boundary by force. This was the outcome. What else would you expect?
7
Didn’t Jews dream to return to Jerusalem? Why shouldn’t Palestinians dream the same? Seems pretty normal to me. They should be allowed to visit the place at least, no? Instead they’re penned up in a choked off overpopulated prison and can’t even move without an Israeli permit (almost never granted).
2
I STRONGLY recommend everyone to read Ronen Bergmann's book, Rise and Kill First to help put all of this into a proper context. After reading it, I am more jaded by both sides machinations of trying to minipulate the world to side with them.
1
Sometimes it's the long view of historical events that counts. My prediction is, Israel's murder of dozens of unarmed Palestinians, coupled with its wounding of thousands more people, will rank high on the list of state-sponsored murder and oppression.
Many of Israel's defenders justify the massacre of Palestinians by blaming Hamas. Sure, Hamas plays a destabilizing role and promotes violent insurgence. Hamas, however, on Monday was not pulling the trigger on unarmed civilians. Israel was.
Consider the plight of Palestinians, virtual prisoners in a small swath of land called Gaza. They're cut off from the outside world, with barely enough food, water and resources to survive. Israel maintains an iron-fisted embargo depriving these souls of their right to survive in comfort and peace. Israel continues expanding its kibbutzes and townships on lands were originally to be set aside for Palestinians. The majority of Palestinians are people, just like you and me, not fighters. They deserve to live with dignity and in freedom from oppression.
Israel is ruled by a right-wing thug who has stymied every possible effort to bring peace to these troubled lands. While I deplore the violent tactics used by Hamas and other terrorist groups, and understand Israel's right to self-defense, I also deplore Israel's use of deadly force against an unarmed population. It's just wrong.
4
People below keep citing this article
https://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-official-50-of-the-people-killed-in-...
If you read it, it is obviously a Hamas member trying to grab glory for his movement. Hamas is going to be criticized if only a few of its members were martyrs, given that they supported the protests. Also, the claim you see further on by another Hamas member is imprecise. He speaks of members or supporters. I would wait for a list of names and comments from family members before taking any of this too seriously.
People here seem to think that mere membership in Hamas is good enough for a death sentence. One might ask whether a member of an Israeli pro settler organization should be judged in the same way.
2
It is time for the United Nations, Europe and NATO members to ask the United States to step aside and allow and support unbiased mediation. The United States was never unbiased but now we have undressed and exposed ourselves to the world.
1
The biggest weakness we Jews have as a people is this terrible tendency to over think everything. Why should we be sorry when the IDF is doing it's duty to protect Israelis from these maurders who want to swarm across the border en masse with the sole purpose of killing every Jew they can. Why is this so hard to understand?
12
Oh, I don't know, because it's a false premise?
5
It’s so hard to understand because the Jews were on the other side of the fence 70 years ago. The Germans did not overthink anything. In the end millions of lives were lost. Israel was founded as a home to Jews so they would never fear again. But now Israel is treating the Palestinians like the Germans. Remember the ghettos: the Germans called the Jews terrorists. And now Israel is doing the same. You can’t be a democracy and imprison people in open air camps at the same time. These people are desperate. And Torah teaches is to heal the world.
6
What about living conditions in Gaza? What part did they play in this "swarm"?
How are living conditions in Gaza, actually?
Your comment is hard to understand because you state, "with the sole purpose of killing every Jew they can.'
That is not really a believable statement.
1
What a lopsided article, and a sensationalist headling, disavowing you of any claim of impartial reporting. Anyone having ever visited Israel, as I have repeatedly for years, knows that any Israeli citizen the New York Times likes to call their reader demographic, is pained by the fact that this is a conflict that will likely never be solved - both because their leadership does not represent large parts of the populace, but largely because the Palestinian side has failed to want to negotiate for 70 years. They suffer with their government’s actions as much as the continued aggression from their neighbours - Palestinians, with many a chance of statehood, and others. Where were you seeing defiance? Where nonchalance? How can you say: ‘Israel said that only a small number of those shot had been armed.‘ without recognising that this is a military open to scrutiny, intent on analysing its actions, yet not presented with options other than the ones it ended up having to take? Live the life of an Israeli, with 700k plus expelled from their Middle Eastern homelands without any claim of a right of return, with 20% of their (arab) citizens given greater participation in public life than in any of the surrounding countries, permanently assaulted by neighbours wishing to drive them into the sea. And where do you consider the fact Egypt’s blockade appears to cause no need for ‘peaceful demonstrations’?
13
And once again, as is unfortunately almost always true for the NYT, only Israeli voices are being reported and even there, only those who do not spout the most repulsively racist language. The voice of the IDF is taken at face value, even though the IDF has been caught lying in the past. This is not reporting but propaganda.
8
Why are these NYT readers continuing to deny the Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad admissions that their operatives were deeply embedded in these riotous demonstrations???
Why are these NYT readers continuing to deny that the majority of those killed were Hamas and Islamic Jihad operatives???
Why is the NYT ITSELF continuing to ignore this???
Hamas official, Dr. Salah Badawil, has just announced that of the “62 people martyred, 50 were Hamas.” https://www.nationalreview.com/news/gaza-protests-50-hamas-terrorists-ki... Of course this squarely conflicts with the agenda of the NYT. So, of course, the NYT won't report it. Let's face it. Hamas won. Thanks to Western news media like the NYT.
13
Anyone notice that 50 members of the Hamas terror organization were among those killed in protests along the Gaza border on Monday, a Hamas spokesperson reportedly said on TV Wednesday...
13
The Israeli argument seems to be that Palestinians deserve the combat boot on their necks for generation after generation with no end in sight.
5
Blase? Maybe it's just the NYT Anti-Israeli bias. In the foaming venom of anti-Trump rhetoric, the NYT can't pass up a chance to tie the violence to the White House. NPR yesterday interviewed a Palestinian who swore that everyone was just peaceful...almost Gandhi-like. Except the photos showed a very different story of men burning tires, hurling rocks and Molotov cocktails. I guess he meant early-Gandhi.
"It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of nonviolence to cover impotence."
11
Today's edition of the Israeli newspaper y-net (Yediot Acharonot) reports both in English and Hebrew:
Senior Hamas official Salah Bardawil told Palestinian media Wednesday that 50 of the Palestinians killed in the Gaza Strip border riots Monday belonged to the terror group's ranks. He spoke in an interview to Baladna TV, a private Palestinian news outlet.
https://www.ynetnews.com/home/0,7340,L-3083,00.html
I couldn't find such a report in the NYT---is
that news "fit to print?"
12
The murders of 100 Palestinians is almost forgotten already in our liberal media. "Mowing the grass" at the edges hardly counts as news. We are all afraid of being labeled anti-Zionist. And yet: murder is murder even when the dead get the blame.
3
Dominick, by Hamas's own admission, most of the people who were killed, while Israel defended herself the other day, were TERRORISTS. Don't be afraid of being labeled "anti-Zionist." Be more afraid of being labeled A LIAR.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Senior Hamas official Salah Bardawil told Palestinian media Wednesday that 50 of the Palestinians killed in the Gaza Strip border riots Monday belonged to the terror group's ranks. He spoke in an interview to Baladna TV, a private Palestinian news outlet."
https://www.ynetnews.com/home/0,7340,L-3083,00.html
5
‘I Hope at Least That Each Bullet Was Justified’
[ Awful, awful, awful. Words that are beyond shameful. ]
6
Nancy: I took that comment about each bullet being justified, as that each bullet should have killed a person who was out to kill an innocent Israeli on the other side of the border. And that no bullet should have killed anyone who was innocent.
4
We as a country are fully responsible for Israeli atrocities. I will not vote for any candidate that is blindly pro-Israel and that will not tie our financial support to real progress on human rights and the Palestine issue.
13
Al M:
The persons MOST responsible for Israeli atrocities are hamas, hezbollah, and the plo. There are others who are responsible, I agree, both those are the MOST responsible.
2
I wonder why Hamas doesn't transport thousands of these people to charge the closed Egyptian border?
Any guesses?
16
um...maybe because their stolen homes are in Israel, not Egypt?
5
Egypt closed the border when Sisi (Israel/US ally) took power in a military coup. They opened it yesterday out of shame and international condemnation.
Egypt gets billions in US aid to keep peace with Israel, and Israel wants that border closed.
2
VoiceofAmerica: Well, here is another question: Why don't the Arab brethren of the neighboring Arab countries extend their hearts, their hands, and their lands to their Palestinian brethren...instead, they have shut their borders to them? Do something...ANYTHING, to help them? They don't want anything to do with them? Why is that?
Unarmed?
10
Who was unarmed? -- Those who attacked the Israeli border were armed with sticks, clubs, knives, pipe bombs, Molotov cocktails...Were the Israelis supposed to just throw blankets over the attacker's heads? Those attackers came, armed with those weapons, with the intention of killing Israelis.
5
A 'planned breaching of the border of a sovereign country' is not justification for shooting unarmed civilians. Up here in Canada, thousands of people have been crossing the border from the USA. They claim asylum, but many bear visas allowing them to reside in the USA temporarily. They're crossing the border of our sovereign country because they don't want to go home to their countries of origins. Nor immigrate the way that other people do to Canada: the legal way.
Are these breachers of our sovereign border welcome to stay on in Canada ? Not usually. However, we don't shoot them. Nor is 'breaching the sovereign border' of Israel enough justification for shooting unarmed people. If there are other grounds for shooting them, let's hear it.
Yes, Israel's besieged and threatened. But the threat is not entirely external. These days, there is a hardened mindset on both sides of the border that bodes ill for future peace.
As for Jerusalem...Making it exclusively the capital of Israel is a recipe for generations more of conflict. There is no easy solution for Israel's current situation, but policies which increase anger only make things worse.
9
So ask Canada to take in those poor Palestinians...
7
If there was a mob of thousands of people trying to breach Canadian border, throwing rocks, burning tires and planting bombs - I think that would make a big difference. This wasn’t a line of peaceful asylum seekers, these are people trying to overthrow a country.
6
However, they don’t aim to cross your border to kill or capture your citizens. This really is a false equivalence. I am Swiss, and we’ve ended up with territories that did not originally belong to us. Do the countries that lost them aim to reclaim parts of Switzerland because they once owned them? Do the Jews aim to reclaim any property they owned in the now new-free Middle East (besides Israel) they once owned? Does any other displaced people?
2
This is common behaviour for the IDF. Consider the 2014 Gaza War; over 2000 Gazans were killed, mostly civilians; a few over 60 Israelis were killed, all but 4-5 were IDF. If you wish to read more about the actions of the IDF, I recommend a book entitled "Our Harsh Logic". This is a compilation of statements by present and former members of the IDF, including high-level officers and soldiers. Many express the anguish they suffered for committing acts that were clearly against their Jewish teaching and morality.
10
I guess you would have Israel ..”turn the other cheek”... oh...but Israel is a Jewish country ... not a Christian one..
4
"Many express the anguish they suffered for committing acts that were clearly against their Jewish teaching and morality."
And yet, no Palestinians did.
4
As an American Jew who was born before Israel was founded and who grew up to admire it and watch it flourish, I confess that my faith in it has evaporated. Under Netanyahu's leadership, the nation from where I sit in New York seems to have been fatally corrupted. The PM's aberrant partnering with Trump, a hollow, venal man whose ignorance of history, diplomacy, race and, indeed, humanity, simply staggers the mind and vividly underscores the desperate and immoral path Israel has chosen. And to hear American rabbis, on the one hand, praise the deliberately inflammatory move of an embassy by an unschooled president and, on the other, lament the loss of life at the hands of Israeli solders is deeply offensive to me and to Judaism itself.
17
While I am not Jewish, I have the utmost respect for you and people like you who have only the betterment of all mankind in your heart,
11
And while I AM Jewish, I have zero respect for you and your armchair quarterbacking from the safety of the United States.
11
Is anyone surprised by this? Israel hasn't merely drifted to the extreme right - they built an expressway to get there as fast as possible. The only thing that ever kept them in check was the USA, and with the Republicans in complete control of the US government, they have a free hand to be as brutal as they like. And they like it a lot.
12
Everyman: Please comment on the role of hamas, hezbollah, and the plo, and what their philosophy and policies have done to help or harm the Palestinians. In truth, it is not Israel that is the enemy of the Palestinians. Israel has many times tried to broker peace, but the Palestinian LEADERSHIP has rejected any and all solutions, and has instead called for the destruction of Israel, and the annihilation of the Jewish people. And just WHO is that leadership????? Lo and behold: hamas, and their ilk! I detest trump and the gop, and I do not like Netanyahu, but let us put the blame for this brutality squarely where it lies.
3
What was shown on the BBC coverage does not jibe with the portrayal of armed protesters. All I saw were protesters with rocks not guns.
We can blame Trump and Netanyahu for the murders and injuries that happened.
Trump has instigated more violence that could have been avoided.
I wonder what kind of a deal he got from Netanyahu to move the American Embassy.
11
What you saw on the BBC? Does that mean that's a complete picture? Britain has been anti-Israel for decades. And let's not even begin to speak about Britain's anti-Semitism. My friend, who is Jewish and has a Jewish last name, was verbally attacked at a gathering in London by supposedly hip, artistic, forward thinking Brits. And that was 10 years ago.
5
$$$, what else? or a hotel or two for Ivanka, and the rest of the crew to play with, or another way to launder criminal funds.
1
Jean: The invaders were armed with rocks, knives, clubs, pipe bombs, and Molotov cocktails. Their intention was to kill as many Israelis as possible, and if they could, also abduct some to be held for ransom. These invaders were incited and encouraged by hamas to do this; 50 of the dead were identified by a hAMAS spokesperson as members of the terrorist group.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
trump is a criminal, an imbecile, a traitor, a liar, and a greed-and-sex driven lout. I don't know quite what netanyahu is...but whatever it is, it is not good.
2
This is a challenging issue. Israel must realize they are not David but Goliath in this conflict. If there is going to be peace and a 2 state solution it must come from them. Some may disagree or that Israel has done enough, but the reality is Israel holds all the power and the cards.
6
Charles, and if hamas does not want peace, but has said that their intention is the destruction of the state of Israel, and the annihilation of the Jewish people...????? How, then, does Israel hold all the power, and all the cards? When you are dealing with murderous lunatics and fanatics like hamas...? I am afraid that Israel cannot fix or change murderers and criminals like hamas. hamas would sacrifice every single Palestinian, including children, to destroy Israel and kill Jews. hamas is the Palestinian "leadership." They do not give a dman about their people. We all have our crosses to bear: We have trump and the gop, Israel has netanyahu, and the Palestinians have hamas. Unless we get rid of all these villains, there will never be peace. There will never be anything good. And: Israel HAS DONE ENOUGH. Everything that Israel has done in the efforts of peace has been crushed by hamas and their ilk. They do not want peace; they want to destroy Israel, kill the Jewish people, and completely move in, and take over.
2
Tragically, the birth rate among Palestinians is three times that of Israelis. So the problems in Gaza will just get worse and life there will be worth less. That is the tragedy. This is just the latest chapter. The problem gets worse all the time.
The only solution is improvement in the education and standard of living for Palestinians, and especially for women's rights, education, and support under Islam.
That is not going to happen. So the size of the tragedy and the amount of fallout from the eventual collapse grows larger each year.
37
Indeed, with the exception of the Balkan wars, nearly all conflicts in the world since the 90s have been in countries with very high birth rates. This issue has been and continues to be ignored by the local populations as well as international organizations.
10
Why has the U.N., with many workers situated in Gaza thru UNRWA, not considered emigration for at least half a million?
Not only the very high birthrate is a problem, but little improved infrastructure, no business investments, little to no foreigners willing to foot the power plants and desalination plants they desperately require. Why would the emirates invest billions if the buildings and equipment get damaged in yet another war. War, terrorism, "peaceful demonstrations" at the fence, is all Hamas knows.
BTW, some within Hamas, as per the Hebrew press, are re-thinking if all these protests are worth it. Lightbulb, action...
2
Talking about over-population is the third rail of political discourse because "learned people" immediately call the writer a racist or worse.
But until people talk about the real, scientific causes of violence and warfare, we will never solve the immigration problem, wars in the Middle East, suicide missions in France, and on and on. Republicans want to address population another way - by removing health care for poor people so they will die younger. Democrats want to solve unwanted children by giving women the right to terminate their own pregnancies. All traditional religions oppose women's education and right of making decisions about their own bodies so they will have as many new members as possible for their faith. All traditional religions such as Roman Catholicism and Orthodox Judaism give men the right to make decisions for women. Even the "liberal" Pope Francis opposes women's rights and celebrates big families and motherhood. What right do men have to bring babies into the world when they can't afford to feed them, educate them, or take care of them until they can live on their on. Every child deserves to be born into a secure and caring environment where he or she can blossom and become a productive happy adult.
Israel, like the United States, is a divided society. About 60 per cent fear and hate Palestinians and think they are less than human. They will find it hard to learn to live peacefully with them and to resolve disputes fairly. About 40 per cent, mostly the college educated, see them as people like themselves, human beings, and hope to live in peace with them. Strong and moral political leadership would facilitate this outcome. However, it is lacking.
5
You get such statistics from where...
1
Diogenes:
Morality and INTEGRITY being EVERYTHING. But you are dealing with hamas, netanyahu, and trump...not much morality and integrity anywhere in that bunch.
2
Hamas claims that 50 of the 62 casualties were their operatives. So why are we talking about unarmed innocent civilians?
19
"Hamas claims that 50 of the 62 casualties were their operatives. So why are we talking about unarmed innocent civilians?"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Yes, WHY????? Because people have their own agendas, even if those agendas are mired in lies and deceit. And also because anti-Semitism is omnipresent. Those are the only 2 reasons I can think of at the moment.
3
Thoughtful reflection by Israelis? Thoughts and prayers with the Palestinians? Israel hasn’t seriously thought about its future in a long time. If ever.
4
Restraint = 60 dead
No Restraint = several times 60?
Unbelievable attempt at spin!
How can these people live with themselves?
7
When tens of thousands are rushing to breach your country's border and murder your populace, then 60 IS restraint.
4
Hello Jim D:
A hamas spokesperson has verified that 50 of the 62 dead were their own terrorist operatives.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I can live with myself. I am repulsed and infuriated when people choose to become terrorists. Terrorists deserve what they get, because what they set out to do is to terrorize and murder innocent people. And if 50 of the 62 dead were TERRORISTS, then the other 12 died because of them.
3
“There was a Nakba,” he wrote in Tuesday’s paper, using the Arabic term for the “catastrophe” of the formation of Israel and the loss of Palestinians’ homes. “The Arabs of Palestine underwent expulsion. Tens of millions of people throughout the entire world, including Jews, underwent similar expulsion. But only the Palestinians adopted an ethos of rejectionism, victimhood, suffering and death.”
Only the Palestinians adopted an ethos of rejectionism, victimhood... seriously?
4
And today, more of the truth comes out: Hamas admits, in Arabic on Palestinian media, that 50 of those killed Monday were Hamas operatives. So not "unarmed peaceful protesters".
Not to mention how dozens of those 60 were killed when firing on Israeli soldier and employing explosives.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-official-50-of-the-people-killed-in-...
16
These were NOT peaceful demonstrators. They were armed, some with guns, others with grenades and Molotov cocktails. Stones can kill you incidentally; would any of you decrying the use of force like to be attacked by a mob throwing stones at you? This was NOT a peaceful March singing Kumbaya. The stated intent of Hamas, which organized this “event” was to destroy the border fence, enter Israel and take it over. Why do so many of you cling to some notion of peaceful people just singing songs?
Hamas incidentally has claimed 50 of the dead yesterday as Hamas operatives including 8 killed in a gun battle; so much for Kumbaya. Islamic Jihad has claimed another 3. Those that died were asking to be “martyred”; they were not innocents. So sad so many of you choose to believe the lies disseminated by Hamas. Trust me; they’d kill you too if they could.
22
All the attention is about current Hamas action vs. IDF action.
And so of course Israeli's can in that way excuse the murder.
Left unspoken is the desperation of Palestinian non ethnic Jews from the relentless cruelty.
Advocates of Israeli like to cite history such as America getting away with stealing much of Mexico. America does in fact have a long history of atrocities. Maybe America and Israel will continue forever these notions of success. 1.6 million Muslims will forever breed desperate counter actions around the World until America and Israel implode to decency.
Jews had no interest for millennia in Ottoman welcome to live in Palestine. Incompetent imperialist Americans enabled the Mid Eastern ghetto created by the secular proponents of a "Chosen People" who reject Reform and Assimilated Judaism in favor of reviving primitive Bible ethos. I hope and suspect that young American Jews and non-Jews everywhere are disgusted. I grew up as part of American Jewish universal tikkun olam. Hopefully sooner or later young people will reject Joshua's slaughter of Canaanites.
4
A Hamas official has now acknowledged that 50 of the Palestinians alleged to have been killed during the border riots on Monday and Tuesday were members of Hamas. In an interview with the Palestinian Baladna news outlet, Dr. Salah Bardawil said: "In the last rounds of confrontations, if 62 people were martyred, 50 of them were Hamas”. An excerpt from the interview is available on YouTube at:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-XCxLJi7po
According to Islamic Jihad, three members of its Saraya al-Quds military wing were killed.
13
I think the NYT needs to appoint a psychologist in evaluating comments.. Aside from the usual anti-Israel rantings, few if any of which actually state anything of substance (no, calling it apartheid is false/phony), there are the alleged (who knows) Jewish responders claiming to be ashamed, embarrassed to be Jewish. Now, now, calm down. 1. First, ask yourselves, what would you rather be (think hard) and 2. Isn't that feeding into the anti-Semitic claim that "all Jews" are to be blamed for anything Israel does/says. Who will take the "blame" for all their hi-tech and medical innovations, for the thousands (no exaggeration) of Syrians they aided medically over the last 6+ years, for absorbing a greater number of Jewish refugees from Arab lands, having to flee for their lives in 1948 onwards? For the Ethiopian Jews who suffered but now are Israel? etc.
I, and many others, am/are not ashamed. And thank G-d for assisting us.
15
Under Netenyahu Israel , which once could claim the mantel to the highest moral ground on earth, is now just another wanna be bully flexing it’s overbuilt up muscles. Too bad, they have lots of brains there going to waste.
2
The kindling had already been smoldering for decades, then Trump added a very large, very flammable timber to the fire of discontent by fulfilling his uninformed campaign promise to move the U.S. Embassy in Israel to Jerusalem. Any idiot could have predicted the outcome. It took a profound idiot to make it happen.
7
If the Arabs had accepted the UN Partition Plan in 1947, they would be dancing today as well, maybe even studying and winning Nobel Prizes instead of flying fire bombs. Palestinians dance when Israelis are murdered.
14
The Chosen People can do no wrong, as God is on their side.
Is there any wonder why religion is the curse of the human race, esp. those religions with strict doctrines such as the Orthodox Jews now in power in Israel?
if there is a god, perhaps his/her justice will prevail and right all these wrongs against the Palestinians.
6
The Orthodox are not in power in Israel, though they are part of the ruling coalition. Hardly anyone in Israel believes that Chosen People nonsense.
3
Actually, the Chosen People do plenty wrong. That is why a full 10-day period between Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur is dedicated to repentance.
However, now that Hamas has admitted the lion's share of those killed were terrorists - it is clear their actions were justified.
So why not direct your attention to the 'Orthodox' Muslims who have perpetrated the wrongs against the Palestinians?
Israel has already made peace with Egypt and Jordan - giving up about half its land mass in the process. It has offered 97% of the West Bank and has already left Gaza. What are the Palestinians holding out for?
2
The constant focus on demonizing Israel by the NYT is disturbing. Why not place blame on the US congressmen and senators who voted to move the embassy to Jerusalem in 1995? All president Trump did was to honor a congressional mandate.
There wouldn't be any deaths, in Gaza, if Hamas terrorists and hate filled Gazans didn't mob the Israeli border. They want a one state solution, with Israel wiped off the map.
NYT reporters do little to cover up their one sided reporting.
16
Ivanka’s dress?? She should be in sack cloth or better yet, no there. Shame on the shameless
7
Hamas official, Dr. Salah Badawil, has just announced that of the “62 people martyred, 50 were Hamas.”
https://www.nationalreview.com/news/gaza-protests-50-hamas-terrorists-ki...
Of course this squarely conflicts with the agenda of the NYT. So, of course, the NYT won't report it.
Let's face it. Hamas won. Thanks to Western news media like the NYT.
17
What's with the NYTs parroting the Israeli claim that their armed Palestinians in the crowd? This was purely a massacre of an unarmed crowd protesting Trump's shameless recognizing the Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. Chuck Schumer's clueless remark that Israel should be able to have its capital anywhere in Israel. The settler gov't of Netanyahu with Trump, in the name of the US gov't, to just take the city without making any effort for an agreement with the Palestinians. The Palestinians don't have the US news media and the US gov't to make their lies smell like roses like the Netanyahu gov't has.
18
Hamas claims 50 fighters among the 62 dead. Islamic Jihad claims 3. Some died in a firefight. Always check the latest news before you comment on a Times piece and you can avoid yourself this kind of embarrassment. if you Google but I say above, you will see that it has been reported in both be Arab and Israeli press. There is also translated video.
16
The NYT may not bother to report this, but maybe this reader should take a stock of and should also parrot it to himself what a Hamas official acknowledged to a local Palestinian TV outlet - that 50 of those killed were card carrying Hamas members. As such they were representing an organization dedicated and to the destruction of Israel!. Some innocent demonstrators!
9
Hamas has claimed that 50 of the 62 killed were their members. Hamas is a terrorist organization whose stated goal is to kill or expel all the Jews of Israel.
It seems that Hamas has confirmed Israel's claim.
5
A Palestinian who travels half a mile to a demonstration is a trouble maker.
An American who travels thousands of miles to a settlement is a noble innocent.
23
This was not a peaceful demonstration.
Many people believe that "unarmed" means no weapon at all, but in fact the Gazans threw rocks, Molotov Cocktails, etc., and sent flaming kites to burn Israeli crops. Many stormed the border fence to get into Israel.
Most front-line Israeli soldiers are young people. I am sure they did not relish shooting at Gazans.
However, the Gazans instigated this violence with violence of their own, which many people want to pretend didn't happen.
Meanwhile Hamas got exactly what it wanted, though at the cost of a lot of human suffering. The payoff is the increased negative view of Israel, which in fact is defending its border as it has every right to do.
31
Israel has no vision. There is no long term strategy, only short sighted aggression. Each death hardens people's hearts and minds. An 8 month old baby died after inhaling tear gas. I have a baby, if this happened to me I would see red for the rest of my life, especially if I saw it happening around me continually for years. Multiply that by generations of people on both sides. This is the epitome of unsustainable. It's like watching a couple strangle each other.
16
Would you bring an eight-month old baby to a protest in a military zone where people throw rocks and burn tires, and there’s known to be tear gas, bullets? The fault is with the people who did.
13
What would we call parents in the US who bring their 8 month old baby to a march on an enemy border, where the baby might be exposed to tear gas and live ammunition fire?
This isn't "desperation" any more than desperation was what motivated kamikaze pilots during WWII. This is a culture in which martyrdom is celebrated and rewarded; even the "moderate" Palestinian Authority which rules the West Bank provides pensions to the families of persons who die when they carry out suicide bombings.
13
The word coming out now is that the 8 month old baby had a serious health condition that was aggravated by the tear gas. That makes the parents even more irresponsible than previously thought.
6
There is never going to be peace between Israelis and Gazans so long as serious and honest reflection about events such as the fatalities resulting from the violent Gazan border protests earlier this week is engaged in solely by Israelis and not by those who live on the other side of the security fence.
73
Hamas admits that 50 of the 60 dead are its militants. Terrorists used civilians as human shields and attempted to broach a border to slaughter Israeli citizens. The IDF performed admirably in killing terrorists and minimizing harm to their human shields. Alas, too much of the media gives Hamas a secondary PR victory by refusing to call out their terrorism. Doing so makes good copy, I guess.
23
Please supply link supporting your “50 of the 60 killed were. Hamas militants. Thank you, I know you’ll get right on it
2
https://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-official-50-of-the-people-killed-in-...
It's all over the Internet today Willie if you look. Inclduding video on Palestinian outlets. And on Al Jazeera.
Hmm...Let's come back to a region of the world that belonged to the Palestinians for 2000 years and claim it for ourselves with the help of the US support, lock the Palestinians living in Gaza for 10 years, limit their access to the rest of the world, their friends and family on the other side of Israel, limit their access to basic human resources and rights, and then shoot them when they protest. Oh, and THEN reflect on how we feel about the whole situation. What kind of journalism is this?
198
History?
Jews and Arabs live in a region no one owns until the Ottoman empire annexes it in. Jews (Zionists) tired of persecution move to this area in the Ottoman Empire and buy land with the permission of the Sultan and start farming it. They can't go to Jerusalem even though there are Jews living there for the last two thousand years. Lots of cemetery headstones and synagogues prove this. After the fall of the Ottomans the British and French divide up the empire and the British get Jerusalem and its environs. In 1922 the League Of Nations takes part of this land and creates Jordan. There are no Palestinians to complain. The League votes to divide the land between Arabs and Jews for two separate states. After much struggling the United Nations approves this partitioning and allows the Jews to create a country called Israel. The Arabs in 6 countries tell the Arabs there to get out of the way so they can push the Jews into the sea. The Jews win and the Arabs are blocked from returning for security reasons. Arabs are allowed to live in Israel and own land. The displaced are allowed to work in Israel until they start bombing buses. The Arabs are restricted by Israel and Egypt which also does not want them. In 1967 Arabs attack Israel and lose again. Israel now has Jerusalem. Streets are paved with Jewish headstones. The Arabs are locked into an area to prevent terrorism. They turn down any plan to have a nation. Everyone forgets they exist because they're tired of them.
36
Uh, it didn't "belong" to them for 2000 years. There was no Palestinian people 2000 years ago.
Do you have any idea about how many
wars there have been in the area and about the many times the populations have moved - either voluntarily or by force? Have you never heard of the "Arab Conquest" - or how people from Arabia conquered the area?
Do you not know that there have been large migrations into Palestine (including in the first half of the last century) of Arab populations from outside of Palestine?
22
When I was a child, my parents taught me not to kick the big dog -- they bite. As long as Gazans choose Hamas; and, as long as Hamas refuses to even sign a cease-fire, Gazans and Israel are at war.
Gazans must realize they're not going back to their ancestral homes even though their sojourn in Israel/Palestine is only a few generations. Parenthetically, some Sephardic Jews kept the keys to their old houses in Spain and Portugal. They're not going back to their old houses in those countries nor in Baghdad.
17
“The Arabs of Palestine underwent expulsion. Tens of millions of people throughout the entire world, including Jews, underwent similar expulsion. But only the Palestinians adopted an ethos of rejectionism, victimhood, suffering and death.”
An Israeli pundit telling the Palestinians, basically, to "get over it".
That these words emanate from a culture which, eighty years after the fact, still invokes the Holocaust at every opportunity, reflects a lack of self-examination. The absence of reflection is quite predictable in a society which engages in an on-going, illegal, merciless oppression of the Palestinians.
The expulsion of the Jews was resolved via the expulsion of the Palestinians, a fact that makes the above statement even more reprehensible.
26
Thank you for a succinct and thoughtful analysis of the situation.
2
This from a man who is living on land from which the Muwekma Ohlone people were displaced. Any reflections, Ed?
2
No, Ed. It comes from a culture that revived itself after genocide. It comes from all those Holocaust survivors who made good lives for themselves where ever they landed after the Holocaust.
It comes from a culture that isn't trying to turn the clock back to 1947 or even 1917 (like the Palestinians are).
It comes from a country with millions of people who were once refugees or fled countries of discrimination against them, and made a better life for themselves instead of wallowing in the past.
And hundreds of thousands of those refugees in Israel were people forced out of Arab countries.
It's really simple, Ed. The Palestinians refused partition in 48 and made war. They lost, and for 70 years have refused to get on with their lives. And the Arab countries have made sure they stay permanently with the status of refugee, just to make it hard for them.
2
How many actual Hamas fighters were harmed?
From the pictures and videos I've seen it appears that Iran-sponsored Hamas stupidly sent their mothers and women and children to the fence to invade Israel. So brave!
15
I am really disappointed that the NYT ran such an article justifying the killing and wounding of thousands of people by the Israeli military using bullets and rifles paid by us the American people. Ruthless and premediated sniper killing of protestors who posed no threat is a war crime. No amount of blaming the crazy Hamas justifies this. Israel stole the Palestinians land, and is now starving the West Bank residents and refuses to negotiate a peace treaty, and now shoots down people in cold blood.
Shame on Israel; you betray your great nation and your cause. I like most other Americans oppose any military or other aid to a fascist government engaged in war crimes, and now it is Israel. There is an alternative and it is called peace and justice for Palestinians and Israelis.
29
Israel is morally corrupting Judaism, dooming both.
After more than five millennia surviving enemies, Judaism will not survive its own sins unless a clear majority of the Jews of the Diaspora loudly denounce Israeli crimes against humanity.
The most tragically ironic aspect of all this is that uber-Zionists within and without Israel are providing actual evidence to confirm many of the the most toxic anti-Semitic slanders.
20
Apparently for Jews, their very existence upon their own indigenous ground is considered by some a crime against humanity.
12
Well, if you want to get “historical” about it, the land belongs to the Canaanites. Indigenous ground indeed.
Shame on Israel. Blind to their own brutality and arrogance, seeking justification where there is none.
29
I like to see the same happening in Mexico USA borders and I am very sure the USA reaction will be harsher and more killings.it is easy to be liberals and generous from four thousand miles when your life is not at risk
14
Deputize civilians to enforce the border. They'll clear it for years.
I do not understand how NYT can stand behind such an distorted reportage, putting the quilt on those who are slaughtered, here is a factual account, these are not "clashes", but executions: https://www.facebook.com/JewishVoiceforPeace/videos/10157392479514992/?h...
12
Hamas has announced that 50 of its fighters are among the dead. Islamic Jehud has announced that 3 of its fighters are among the dead. That means that at lest 53 of the 62 dead at the Gaza border were proud terrorists. Enough said.
24
Wonder why this was not included in the NY Times story? Oddly Hamas is not denying it, but proudly announcied it.
9
Israeli officials said that only a few of those killed were armed. Was the IDF afraid that the "terrorists" would bite them?
When is leadership of Hamas held to scrutiny. They perpetuate the suffering of their own people to stay in power. You never hear of an opposition to Hamas in Gaza because all dissenters are quickly and quietly lynched.
16
Is Jerusalem a holy city?? The Israelis have turned it into a grotesque symbol of much of what is worst in humanity: greed, selfishness, prejudice... -- Under Israeli control the 'holy land' has become a place that segregates men rather than brings them together.
-- Its laughable and pathetic that they use the Bible to justify such behavior.
9
East Jerusalem, the holy site, is under Jordanian control - Islamic. Direct your complaints there.
4
The NY TImes' coverage of the demonstrations at the border continues to be unconscionably distorted. The rest of the world is condemning Israeli violence in the strongest possible terms, and articles here present the views of a handful of Israelis? Bring Declan Walsh to Israel and Palestine, fire Kershner for good please. No-one should rely solely on the NYT for their information on this particular issue.
14
If the NY Times concedes that Israel is entitled to defend its borders, then it would be admitting that the United States, likewise, is entitled to enforce its own borders.
2
I am Jewish and am disgusted by Israeli barbarism.
48
Smiley--Thank you. There are many of us who feel the same way.
7
"I am Jewish and am disgusted by Israeli barbarism."
I'm Netherlands Reformed and I'm disgusted with "Palestinian" recalcitrance and savagery.
4
Even Hamas has stated that 50 of the 62 killed were Hamas members. Israel defending itself is barbaric? Do you recommend that, instead, they allow the Hamas members to cross into Israel? Do you expect them to bring flowers with them?
2
I suggest that the NYT update this article to include the fact that Hamas has now confirmed that 53 of the 60 were members of its organization.
77
No, because it's not true.
2
Hamas...always a reliable source. Also, hasbera seems to be having difficulty getting their number straight:Was it 36 51, or 47? who knows,you guys all keep saying different things
1
"Confirmed" = "claimed." Just as ISIS claims every attack is by a member of ISIS. Perhaps they were, but I suspect this is inflammatory propaganda, good for belligerents and rejectionists on both sides.
I used to support Israel as an indispensable ally and symbol of right action following the second world war.
But today it has squandered its image and heritage, and I hold it in contempt as an apartheid state. It is perpetrating upon the Palestinian people what has historically been visited upon Jews the world over, relegating them to a ghetto in Gaza. This is especially cruel coming from a people on whom such abuses have been visited for millennia.
109
"In the last round of confrontations, of 62 people martyred, 50 of them were Hamas” - Hamas spokesman (Salah Bardawil) in a television interview earlier today.
So, by Israel defending themselves against terrorists, it has "squandered its image and heritage"? Interesting thought.
18
Reportedly, there's a tendency for people who are abused when they are children and have no power to use their power to abuse when they grow up and have some.
3
What a disgusting day. The opening of the Jerusalem embassy by unelected family members that caused to escalate the desperation of Palestine. Murder is murder.
61
It's sad that Hamas has chosen to encourage violence as a means of deflecting people's frustration with their rule of Gaza.
39
The frustration is with the Israeli oppression of the people... which makes them turn to Hamas..
12
The people didn't turn to Hamas. Hamas took Gaza over from the Palestinian authority.
Israel will never win their aim of reductinc the conflict until they stop blasting mosquitos with cannon. If they want peace after this debacle they should offer medical assistance to the victims, most of whom were unarmed and, understandably from their historical point of view, upset at the loss of their access to holy sites. Israel must WANT this conflict. They should be ashamed of this over-the-top bloodshed and reexamine their strategies. If they don't change this sad conflict will only worsen, and they will be responsible for their enemies' desperation.
What's the casualty rate of Palestinians who didn't try to breach the border?
33
Apparently surprisingly high since according to reporting by The New Yorker many people were killed hundreds of yards away from the border.
7
Well, Hamas claims that 50 of the 62 killed were their members. So, Jeoffrey, even Hamas supports Israel's claims.
Well no, Reuven, one person in Hamas made that claim in order to try to deflect blame for inciting civilians to such dangerous civil disobedience, and to make themselves look like martyrs. No serious person believes this claim.
Hamas leader just said 50 out of 62 dead are members of the organization. Why isn't that mentioned? Totally changes the perspective.
43
Because the one Hamas leader who said that was very possibly trying to deflect blame from Hamas's encouraging a protest that led to the deaths of scores of civilians. By claiming fifty martyrs he gets to disclaim Hamas's own responsibility in encouraging civilians to be confrontational and to make Hamas look like a courageous resistance. If the claim is true it will change the perspective. But the likelihood of its truth right now seems low.
And of the 1500 injured? How many were civilians? Probably many
1
Why does that change the perspective? People armed with rocks and stones , shot from hundreds of yards away is still murder. I get that their political affiliation matters some, but slaughter is slaughter.
The Trump WH and the GOP share blame in this horrible turn of events. People need to see that money played a part. Bibi now owns and operates our WH.
16
https://twitter.com/LTCJonathan/status/99674164205601996.8 Senior Hamas official sets the record straight on who was killed in last Hamas-orchestrated riots: "50 of the 62 martyrs were Hamas". This is a Palestinian video not Israeli.
24
This unlikely assertion would need confirmation.The Hamas leader who said that was very possibly trying to deflect blame from Hamas's encouraging a protest that led to the deaths of scores of civilians. By claiming fifty martyrs he gets to disclaim Hamas's own responsibility in encouraging civilians to be confrontational and to make Hamas look like a courageous resistance. If the claim is true it will change the perspective. But the likelihood of its truth right now seems low.
6
"Sorry, that page doesn’t exist!"
Even if it did, using twitter to validate a claim is about what you'd expect from apologists for a blood-thirsty pariah state.
1
Palestinians, get this through your heads. Palestinians are never going to get a state on the West Bank. That ship has sailed. There are too many Jews now in Israel to make a mini-state for Jews viable.
The best that Palestinians can hope for is full Israeli citizenship, some degree of autonomy similar to what French Canadians have in Quebec, plus payment of Just Compensation to those who lost land or property due to Israel's creation by the UN, the representative of the World Community, as under the legal doctrine of Eminant Domain. Let us also recall that Israel was created by the UN to make recompense for what the Germans did.
As far as Gaza goes, the UN should immediately recognize Gaza as an independent state whether Gaza asks for it or it. Right now Gaza is not Israel, it's not Egypt. It's a big nothing.
There's your Palestinian state,,, Gaza.
53
To History, 70 years if nothing, a mere blink of the eye. Once, there was Roman Empire, a Greek Empire, a Persian Empire, a French Empire and British Empire, a Spanish Empire, even Dutch and Portugese Empires . Once what we now call the USA was a vast area with many indigenous tribes. So, Mike, nothing lasts; one day, things will be different and Israel won't exist. You can't fight everyone without going down.
3
"So, Mike, nothing lasts; one day, things will be different and Israel won't exist. You can't fight everyone without going down."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Lovely, David, but it will never happen. Everyone has been trying to kill Jews since time immemorial. And, yes, a lot of empires are gone. Israel has incredible military strength...the kind of strength none of those fallen "empires" ever knew. The Jewish Defense League has a slogan--you might even know it: "NEVER AGAIN!" Israel by the way, is not fighting "everyone." Just the anti-Semites. hamas and hezbollah are vicious human garbage, and they would delight not just in the destruction of Israel and the annihilation of the Jewish people, but they wouldn't care if they had to sacrifice every last Palestinian to achieve their murderous goal...so much do hamas and hezbollah "love" their people. They treat their people like garbage, and use them for cannon fodder.
Do you really think the Native Americans will ever come back (like the Jews did) to recover their ancestral homeland? I hope so, but doubt it.
I understand the situation the IDF faces, but saying "this is the greatest day in our history" with 50-60 dead civilians, well, at a minimum it's tone-deaf
13
This just in: A Hamas official says in an interview that 50 of the Gazans killed in Monday’s clashes with Israeli troops were members of the terror group.
Salah Bardawil says of the “62 people martyred, 50 were Hamas.” Gaza’s Hamas-run health ministry earlier reported 60 Gazans were killed in the clashes.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog-may-16-2018/
18
The Hamas leader who said that was very possibly trying to deflect blame from Hamas's encouraging a protest that led to the deaths of scores of civilians. By claiming fifty martyrs he gets to disclaim Hamas's own responsibility in encouraging civilians to be confrontational and to make Hamas look like a courageous resistance. If the claim is true it will change the perspective. But the likelihood of its truth right now seems low.
1
They don’t care, plain to see. They are guided by blind hegemony and imperious religious entitlement. This is not a war by any meaningful measure though insasmuch as that this is a war, these are war crimes—a mass murder, a massacre. The global community speaking out is the only hope against further apartheid.
10
Why don't I trust the "Times" to find Israeli a sufficient number of Israelis to express what those on the American left would assume is the correct reaction? Shame. "Times" coverage and commentary to date has been so lopsided in sympathizing WITH the Palestinian attempted invasion of Israel to carry out mass slaughter it beggars the imagination. Of course the Israelis are conflicted: no one enjoys a bloody spectacle -- but they know what the goal of this Hamas-led attempted incursion was. (Check Hamas' website.) It might succeed in infiltrating killers into Israel to knife and ax Israeli civilians to death or achieve an almost equally desirable goal, which, thanks to the "New York Times" and the "Washington Post" it did pull off: evoke sympathy for a terrorist organization and its frenzied followers. Why do I imagine it would have been easy to find Israelis who understandably don't want Palestinian mobs intent on killing them to cross the border -- and yet are anguished by the death toll. You make sure to find one person to serve as your accomplice in making Israelis look like monsters without empathy -- citing people who regarded winning the Eurovision Song Contest as the great event of the day. Having been to Israel many times I know you could easily have found others to express relief to have been spared attempts on their lives while bemoaning the need to take so much life. You had a political agenda in this article -- and you made the story match. Shameful.
33
I've yet to hear what Israel should have done instead. One commentator said they should wait until the border was breached and only then attack the Palestinians. So, wait until people wanting to overrun Israel and kill Israelis should be allowed to breach a country's border? Thousands of young Palestinian men attacking the towns that lay almost next to the border? You want to see more Paestinians killed? That would be the result. But Israelis would be murdered so I guess it would be ok.
Do you live surrounded by millions of people who want to destroy you?
You do recall that there were open borders with Israel and when Israel removed all Jews from Gaza, in a gesture of friendship Hamas lobbbed rockets into Israel. Thus the border.
Again, what is your solution?
57
The Birmingham and Selma Alabama police used water canons and dogs which seemed somewhat more effective than shooting children
1
Hamas has admitted that over 50 of the 62 dead were Hamas members. Hamas is an organization whose sole goal is to destroy the Jewish State. They are anything but peaceful demonstrators and The New York Times repeatedly reports otherwise. Your journalistic objectivity certainly comes into question when you portray a situation through the lens and the propaganda of terrorists.
33
They didn't "admit." They boasted. Which means that you should take this with a lot of grains of salt. The Hamas commander who made this claim is most probably seeking to deflect blame on Hamas for inciting civilians into this lethal confrontation while building up his own organization's credibility as comprising brave and self-sacrificing martyrs. Both sides love this narrative.
The funeral announcements in Gaza saying the dead were fighters for Hamas and Islamic Jihad belie your understanding. The Gazans take those very seriously and no one would fake a statement like that in a funeral announcement.
Wow amazing that Israel could distinguish between the 50 Hamas fighters and the thousands of others it just wounded. Sorry DH, but after-the-fact claims of martyrdom are not proof of so implausible an outcome.
Bullets against , kits, knives and threats . Bully tactics, why not water canons? How about other non lethal weapons.
As usual Israel abuses other countries and expects sympathetic press .
14
Today a Hamas official acknowledged that 50 of the dead at the border fence were Hamas members. Islamic Jihad admits that three of its members died. Will the New York Times report these admissions? It certainly changes the impression conveyed about the killing of "mostly unarmed Palestinians."
41
They were "unarmed Palectinians", so what is your point?
Hamas is a mass organization, so why wouldn't their members be on the front line? Your attempt to justify the deaths of unarmed demonstrators is an admission of your loss of conscience.
1
I just love how the NY Times, and all these commentators, moralize and opine on everything Israel does to defend itself and protect its borders.
Well, in our wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, as well as all the drone strikes in places like Somalia, Yemen, etc... we the USA have killed hundreds of thousands of civilians over the past 15 years, of course all accidentally as "collateral damage".
But I do not recall any NY Times stories dealing in depth with how Americans were reflecting and feeling about the hundreds of thousands of civilians the US military has killed in our wars.
35
Pretend this had been Birmingham AL in 1963,and MLK was leading a civil rights demonstration. Would your opinions be different than your opinions about the Gaza shootings?
The "authorities" in Alabama took pretty much the same view of demonstrators-"outside agitators",allegations of weapons,threat to life and property,etc.
(Skip the terrorism and "armed" demonstrators allegations from Israel,as well ignore Hamas' cynical and criminal manipulations of the protestors.)
5
MLK engaged in actual non violence. He was about getting all people their rights.
Hamas is the polar opposite: only uses violence, and is all about hate and denying others not only rights, but life itself.
2
Back in 1963 a large proportion of Americans were of the same opinion that Israelis hold now.
1
The definition of insanity is to continue to do the same thing and expect a different outcome. Finally, we have an American president and an Israeli Prime minister with some actual guts. The hand ringing in this commentary section is sickening as is the New York Times coverage. Hamas is in the terrorism business and clearly there is no low too low for them to make sure they maintain their stranglehold on the Palestinian people. If just once the international community called their bluff and penalized them for not participating in the well being of their own people, maybe we would see some change. Even the rest of the Sunni Muslim world is waking up. But, unfortunately, it’s the same old, same old for the liberal West. Are they really that worried that Trump could have a success here, where decades of cajoling, and sniveling appeasement have failed.
22
“The Arabs of Palestine underwent expulsion. Tens of millions of people throughout the entire world, including Jews, underwent similar expulsion. But only the Palestinians adopted an ethos of rejectionism, victimhood, suffering and death.”
Can't be said any better... the Palestinian leadership and its people must adopt a new mode of thinking... one of acceptance and reconciliation. Definitely a bitter pill to swallow but t's the only way forward to a lasting peace.
Overheard at many A.A. meetings... the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over again and expecting a different result.
20
I am just mystified at the language used in this article. After viewing this conflict from several different sources it seems quite clear this wasn't a "demonstration" - peaceful or otherwise-but a planned attempt to breach a border of a sovereign country. Any country would take the actions the Israelis did without hesitation for one simple reason: the people who were attempting the incursion were trying to do violence to the citizens of Israel. Sorry, I am not sure why there is not more reporting about how the Gazans planned all of this event. Let's stop the hand wringing. If someone were breaking into your house intending to violence, armed or not, you'd defend yourself.
38
By that same token Palestinians are right to open fire on any Israeli infiltrators who attempt to enter the West Bank right?
From light to all the nations to blight among its neighbors.
I understand that Israel has no one on the Palestinian side to negotiate with. That doesn't excuse the government's response to the protests. Or the settlement policy, or - closer to home - the abhorent sight of Kushner and his bride, representing the USA in Jerusalem.
8
Jealousy, envy. Leave the Kushners (i.e. the Jews) out of it. It is ridiculous for the President to appoint family as paid advisors, I agree. But, I've seen too many jabs at Jared to understand he is getting blamed, because he's Jewish.
8
Jared is not getting blamed because he is Jewish. Hes getting blamed for being unqualified and over his head. Get over the victim complex Rosalie.
So now we learn that Hamas admits that 50 of the 62 killed on Monday were in fact Hamas militants, not innocent unarmed civilians. I wonder if the NYT will mention that. I also wonder if there is one reporter out there who will mention that any children killed were brought to the front lines of a chaotic protest deliberately in the hopes of getting killed in order to achieve maximum propaganda points. That is a war crime and the pro Palestinian apologists refuse to acknowledge that. And it is also insane to think that any child was killed deliberately as there is absolutely nothing to gain from that.
32
You might as well ask male undergraduates how they feel about campus sexual assault: some will understand; some will be indifferent; some will rationalize rape. Effort is better spent putting people on notice about the immorality and illegality of the matter, not on surveying people's feelings. Anything that draws attention away from these heinous and criminal assassinations is a shande. And just as Americans are reflected in their government, so every Israeli is complicit here. Boycott. Divest. Sanction.
13
Zionism and the State of Israel were built on the ethos of victimhood. Israel is not the victim.
11
Sounds like a plan that Trump could use instead of building a wall. Just shoot them all. My respect for Israel is hovering near zero.
14
Hamas is trading blood for headlines. It's working.
43
Just like Ghandi, King, Mandela. I’ll admit Hamas is not as ethically clean as those three. But for decades the Palestinians have been subjugated, often after their own mistakes. But what other course of action would work. I have been troubled over the years, why the Palestinians don’t adopt complete non-violence like Ghandi. If they did everything peacefully, the Israeli’s would lose the high ground. I don’t understand why the smartest Palestinians don’t see this.
On May 14, 2018 over 60 Palestinians were killed by Israel in one day! these Palestinians were civilians without guns!
What other nation on earth would kill 60 civilians engaged in peaceful protests and no eyebrows are raised? But, a slap on the wrist as always, is what Israel gets?
Palestinian lives are taken as valueless, worthless and meaningless, while President Trump, as the rabble rouser in-chief, has now added accelerants to a raging inferno with his relocation of the American Embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem on May 14, 2018.
Last month, Israel also killed 31 Palestinians and the world prevaricated. The United Nations toothless wimpy bulldog could not even establish a Committee to investigate the unwarranted killings of Palestinians!
In 2014, according to the United Nations, Israel killed 2,104 Palestinians but the Palestinian leaders put the killing at over 2,500 Palestinians and the world has looked on impishly and sheepishly.
At the United Nations and elsewhere, the current mantra is clearly that power or might is right. As such, Israel is allowed to constantly use its Sledge hammer to kill mosquitoes, with winks and nods from America and some other Western powers
Grieving in Gaza and Jubilations in Jerusalem! Are Palestinian Lives Worthless?
https://essayscommentariesanalysesdebates.wordpress.com/2018/05/16/griev...
11
Not civilians by any stretch. Hamas says 50 of them were Hamas. Another 3 were from another terrorist organization. Hamas makes clear it is in a war to destroy Israel. What is the morality of "soldiers" hiding behind civilians? No other nation would tolerate an invasion like this.
2
Contrary to what this article would suggest, there have, in fact, been protests in Israel against the military's use of force at the Gaza border.
49
Hamas official: 50 of the 62 Gazans killed in border violence were our members.
Salah Bardawil's confirmation means number of acknowledged members of terror groups who died on Monday and Tuesday is now 53
https://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-official-50-of-the-people-killed-in-...
1
@Michael: This is encouraging; could you please provide relevant URLs. Thanks.
2
After 70 years of building no institutions, no educational system, no means for trade, no real business, or have any other policy or thought than, "It's Israel's fault", it's hard for me to feel any empathy for the followers of Hamas.
They seem to have no problem building tunnels, launching rockets, or any aspect of war and killing. But now they're using their own people as "martyrs" to get support?! I'd probably have a bit more respect for their leaders, I have zero now, if they were leading the march, AND staying at the front of the march so they become the martyrs they so revere, as opposed to thieves that take the peoples monies and live in luxury.
41
Did you ever wonder why Gazans don't storm the border fence on the Egyptian side? Because there would be no protestors left. Nor would there be any countrywide self-reflection or remorse in Egypt. Israelis doesn't want violence but they also don't to succumb to it. And they know the neighborhood they live in shows no mercy in war. See recent history in Syria, Iraq, Yemen, Bahrain, Libya, and Lebanon if you need examples.
46
"In the last round of confrontations, of 62 people martyred, 50 of them were Hamas” - Hamas spokesman (Salah Bardawil) in a television interview earlier today.
I'm glad at least someone is acknowledging what actually happened.
120
So, even if this was true and we are to believe Hamas, how is it ok to kill members of Hamas? Just being affiliated with Hamas, the ruling party if Gaza, means you are as good as dead?
And how would the snipers know they were shooting HAMAS? The whole argument is nonsense. Eight kids were killed.
6
Every death is a tragedy, and we all want peace rather than violence. But the majority of the dead were Hamas terrorists, according to a Hamas official. What would the USA do if terrorists tried repeatedly to infiltrate our border?
“Hamas official: 50 of the 62 Gazans killed in border violence were our members”
https://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-official-50-of-the-people-killed-in-...
24
This is pure Israeli propaganda, most of the killed have nothing to do with the Hamas which anyway has less blood on its hands than the IDF.
The real terrorists are on the other side.
Unfortunately, the only possible outcome to this protest is that a few dozen/hundred more civilians, mixed in with maybe a handful of militants, will die, before it simmers down and eventually becomes a distant memory, one probably none of you would even remember if asked about it in six months' time.
Israel will not allow its border to be breached by a hodgepodge of terrorists, civilians, and terrorists disguised as civilians, when the nearest Israeli villages lay feet from the border.
Hamas will not miss a good press day by calling off the breaching of the border before Israel receives sufficiently bad press for killing civilians.
So the wheel keeps turning. Another day in perpetual double-edged Nakba.
Let's all be happy to have our first world problems and dilemmas.
11
All of the coverage has referred to Gaza as a kind of "open air prison", and subject to a "blockade", but nobody has said why this is so. Gaza is ruled by Hamas, and Hamas spends most of the large amount of money it receives, from outside sources and from extorting and taxing the residents of Gaza, on producing weapons and tunnels. It spends just about all of its time thinking of how to smuggle in weapons and building materials in order to attack Israel. Israel has established terminals where incoming goods can be inspected. Hamas has repeatedly destroyed them. Hamas wants misery and uses it as a tactic. Exhorting Gazans to rush the fence in the hope that it can be breached so that its agents can infiltrate and murder Israelis is just the latest episode.
42
The soldiers used rifles, not automatic weapons or bombs, to defend against people who were attempting to invade their country.
I think the invaders who totally precipitated this madness got off easy.
35
It is a horrible thought but it may be the case that Israel shows the greatest racially biased disregard of those it administers of any developed country. This is what some of the original builders of the Zionist project feared and some expected. What they couldn't have predicted is that religion would come to play such a dominate role in the self-definition of a vital block of Israeli voters. This morning I heard the heart felt opposition of Bari Weiss to the settlements that have captured hill after hill that look down upon the impoverished Palestinians. I am sure she is being sincere but then I also know that she is aware that these settlements will never be removed. Nothing impresses one more of the commitment to rob every inch of Palestinian land than a trip across the West Bank where developments that could be in South Florida cover hill after hill. And this land can be taken because those who live there believe that they are commanded by God to take every inch. I once had one of my students at a modern orthodox yeshiva innocently say what sort of peace the Palestinian's could have, "we will be peaceful to them as they all leave"
7
So today, Hamas admits that of the 62 people killed while trying to breach Israel's sovereign borders, 50 were Hamas members (aka, terrorists). The loss of any life is tragic, but Hamas has been using the citizens of Gaza as sacrificial pawns in a chess game for public relations victories. They should take the hundreds of millions of aid that they received and invest in their people instead of attack tunnels.
21
The situation between Israel and the Palestinians is the sad story of two rights gone wrong. As of 70AD, the rebellious Jews lost thier land to the Romans, were scattered and for the next 2000 yrs the land became Palestine. After 2000 yrs, the same land was offered to the longsuffering Jewish people, escaping the holocaust, which was obviously unacceptable to the Palestinian/Jordanian Arabs inhabiting the same land for centuries.
There is no solution to a problem when two people claim a legitimate right for the same land.
The muddled foreign policy of Trump, controlled by Netanyahu, has finally created an impasse in the region.
There will be no solution...ergo no peace in the Middle East.
18
Or as Lincoln so nobly said in his second inag... speech and I am paraphrasing him, no side wanted this war and it came, let us hope that it speedily ends but if it doesn't it is the price we pay for hundreds of yrs of slavery (or in the mideast case hatred between groups).
2
There is a simple solution, respect the right (see Geneva Conventions) which protects the civil population of areas controlled by an foreign power.
Oh, I forgot, Israel is above the law and yes the Israeli did not sign those conventions, which gives them the right to enforce their own "divine" right.
It's the same story with the atomic non-proliferation treaty which they did neither sign or respect but to which they refer when it comes to neighboring countries.
9
Not certain why occupation by ancestors over 2000 years ago qualifies as a legitimate right to the land. Do Native Americans have the right to reclaim both North and South America? It makes as much sense, perhaps more sense due to less passage of time, as the Jewish claim.
5
Thousands of Palestinians marched to the border fence with molotov cocktails trying to break down the barrier. They brought babies and children. Why??? (pretty crazy thing to do! Unless their intention was to portray Israel on the world stage as evil when those children were hurt or killed, which is exactly what happened). They were warned over and over by the Israeli patrol to back off or they'd be shot, but they ignored the warnings, and they got shot... Israel wanted to protect it's border, and citizens, from an influx of thousands of angry protestors (and possible terrorists).
Seems to me the Palestinians, or those leading them, got a victory here; portray Israel as the bad guy...
I actually had sympathy for the Palestinians until I read that they brought babies and children to this extremely dangerous situation...
118
When the bully gives you a bloody nose, it is always important for the bully to blame the victim. As soon as Palestine and Israel was partitioned, the Israelites began to attack Palestine. Israel's goal was, is and always will be the forced exile of all Palestinians and the incorporation of Palisitine into "Greater Israel." Of course Palestine fought back.
16
But what you state is so very wrong. Just remember there were no Palestinians before the 1970s just Arabs. And 20% of Israeli citizens are Muslim, or "Palestinian" as you would call them. How many Jews still live in Lebanon, Gaza, etc? Or Christians for that matter?
1
They didn't bring babies and children close to the fence. The baby who died was hit by tear gas from an Israeli drone far from the fence.
9
Regardless of which side one chooses to empathize with most, one thing seems certain: This situation cannot stand. At what point does Israel become a sort of physical and moral prison for its own people? It seems that reality is close if not already here. I am afraid by choosing to back Israel, right or wrong, the United States is enabling the worst of all outcomes.
15
Here are a few other American and Israeli reflections on Gaza and the plight of Palestinians in general:
1. “What a glorious day! Remember this moment,” shouted Benjamin Netanyahu to the assembled guests at Monday's embassy celebrations in Jerusalem. Israel’s prime minister, currently a subject of criminal investigation, should rest assured that the day will be remembered and mourned by Palestinians (and much of the world) in the years to come.
2. Naftali Bennett, Israel’s hardline education minister, put what the foreign ministry called the “murderous rioters” on notice. By taking part in the demonstrations, Palestinians were self-identifying as terrorists, said Bennett. If innocent Palestinians were shot dead, Bennett implied, it was their own fault for associating with demonstrators.
3. American (and Jewish) ambassador, David Friedman, loyally praised Trump’s “vision and courage” for moving the embassy to Jerusalem. As a lawyer, Friedman specialized in bankruptcy proceedings, representing the Trump Organisation when its Atlantic City casinos went belly-up. Some have questioned Friedman's diplomatic credentials, but they seemed entirely appropriate on Monday, as the ambassador praised president Trump for his "moral clarity" as dozens of women and children were gunned-down during the embassy celebrations.
Yes ...... just a few other reflections of Israelis and Jewish Americans on the plight of the Palestinian people.
36
4. “If they are hungry, the people of the Gaza Strip will eat the livers of those besieging them”
— Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar
2
This is who we give billions in military aid to each year?
63
My feelings are also mixed: anger, horror, and shame. Sharpeville.
17
Disgusting: There is no valid comparison to Sharpeville.
3
I'm sick of hearing from the poor oppressors point of view, even more than I'm sick of reading about hipster Brooklyn, NY real estate and the latest mainstream pop-sensation. I'm now sorry that I took out a Times subscription in support of the recent attacks on journalism. I'll be looking for more deserving journals that don't pander and have greater integrity.
22
Defending? It has been reported that unarmed women and children have been murdered in cold blood by Israeli soldiers. The massacre is worse than Tienanmen Square.
36
Sorry, but your unarmed women and children narrative is baloney. You've swallowed the bait, hook, line and sinker!Hamas just tweeted that 50 of those killed in Monday's "massacre" were Hamas operatives, who generally are armed to the teeth!
19
Hamas just admitted in an interview that 50 of the 60 just killed were Hamas operatives. The baby that died had a prexisting condition.
10
Who in all decency would bring their baby or small children to such a protest. No excuse !!!!
2
Always from the Israeli perspective with the Israeli commentary... Why not ask those Palestinian families who were forcibly removed from their homes and villages by the jewish terror groups Haganah, Lehi, and Irgun about their dreams and aspirations as they languish in an open air prison?
This always has been and will always be about Palestinians' right to return to the homes they were dispossessed of in 1948. Each day that passes with the millions of Palestinian refugees in exile is a compounding crime against humanity. Those nation states and politicians who fight so hard to be on the wrong side of history in order to support this European colonial theocracy for want of votes and donations will ultimately have to reconcile with their inhumane choices and the lives that their intransigence impact.
54
Since you live in NYC, which was once Native American land, I hope you will leave back to your ancestral lands, along with every other person in America who is not of Native American descent. So, let's ship hundreds of millions of people of European descent back to Europe.
Sounds totally feasible, right?
10
Less well known is the dispossesion of Jews who were drivenfrom what's now known as the West Bank. If there's a "right of return", wouldnt they have it, too?
Also, following the 1948-1949 war, about 800,000 Jews were expelled from and dispossessed by the Arab countries in which they were living. Communities that had existed for 1,000 years or more were virtually wiped out.
6
Yes, Israel is a nation state for the Jewish people, with the Hebrew language as its official language and dominant Jewish culture. It is also a democratic state that protects the rights of minorities while STILL being a nation state. It is not a multinational state. Get over it.
And if you're so hell - bent on the right of return you can go back to your ancestral lands (certainly not NY) and make sure every Jew displaced from Europe and the Middle East (Iran, Syria, Iraq for example) can return home too. Thanks.
3
I'm used to the news of whatever the latest thinly-veiled Christian v. Islam violence news story contains. Neither side wants to work it out, and the US is simply working the situation to get what it wants. What's going to cause me to protest in the streets is the distinct possibility that with the coming multi front war pitting the white Christian west against the Muslims, my children will be ordered to join the military and participate. Over my dead body.
5
"Tens of millions of people throughout the entire world, including Jews, underwent similar expulsion. But only the Palestinians adopted an ethos of rejectionism, victimhood, suffering and death". To turn that argument around, "Tens of millions of people throughout the entire world, including Jews, underwent similar expulsion. But only the Jewish people adopted an ethos where they inflicted suffering and death on another ethnic group and justified it by blaming the victims". We all know that the path to peace is through empathy and love. Right now, it is the people of Israel who do not seem to have the courage to follow that path.
237
Totally disagree. As soon as Hamas and the Palestinian people accept the existence of Israel, its right to exist as a sovereign nation with Jerusalem as its capital, and agree to abandon violence, you will have peace.
23
It is your ‘victims’ who tried as hard as they could several times to drive Israel into the sea. And what if they succeed? The entire region would resemble a refugee camp.
18
Why is it that you "empathy and love" people absolutely refuse to acknowledge the Palestinians' actual actions? Tell me, if those people rushing the fence had been welcomed into Israel, what do you think they would do? Immediately register for college and look for a nice apartment to live in? How naive can a person be? I guess you have answered that question for us.
18
This story, from Canadian professor Gad Saad, was recently posted on Twitter:
We escaped our homeland (Lebanon) in late 1975. When my parents returned to Beirut, our home had been illegally taken over by Palestinians. We moved on. We did not harbor any collective resentment and hatred toward Palestinians.
The history of our species is replete with endless examples of conquered territories. Most nations today were once occupied by someone else. Such is history. I am typing these words from a location where the Iroquois and Algonquins were once. You are likely reading these words from a location that was once inhabited and "owned" by other people.
There is no reason why innumerable peoples have accepted the reality of history but a few others prefer to drown their future prospects in past grievances. The collective victimhood narrative is a form of perverse power wherein it becomes
yourself from victimhood. Process the past but move on to a brighter future.
I hate the fact that we left Lebanon because of religious hatred but I've accepted this reality and have built a worthy life for myself & my family elsewhere.
Recognize your past, process it, and move on. This is true at the individual level and true at the collective level.
Cheers from La Belle Province.
109
These people were not bent on a peaceful protest ... These people were bent on breaching the official recognized border in order to kill Israelis and burn their fields and houses.
What should the Israelis have done ?
What would any other country have done ?
What would Syria or Iran or Russia have done ?
What would the US, Britain, France have done ?
99
Find a political solution is what Britain and France would do.
25
Britain and France wouldn't have moved the embassy to Jerusalem, and certainly wouldn't have chosen that particular day to do it. The provocation was extreme: blame trump and all the other orchestrators of the embassy move for inciting predictable violence.
5
"I hope at least that each bullet was justified" is not sufficiently sorrowful to me.
35
I can imagine this degree of sorrow: Hamas/Hezbollah/Iran (and BDS, perhaps?) achieve their goal and destroy Israel via missles, tunnels, mass incursions and boycotts. Then the rest of the world - almost all of the UN General Assembly - has a moment of silence, someone says "what a shame" and then back to business.
Such is "sorrow" as pertains to Israel.
11
Why is sorrow even called for? These people asked for it... sought out death to boost their propaganda.
8
Can you imagine the crescendo of condemnation
if Ukrainians tried to cross into Crimea and
Russian forces shot to death 61 and injured
hundreds? Not only eschewing criticism
of Israel for using disproportionate force,
UN ambassador Halley walked out when
Palestinian ambassador started addressing
the UN security council. USA is the problem,
a big stumbling block to peace.
116
A Hamas official confirmed that 50 out of the 62 dead at the fence were Hamas operatives. Israelis are realists and the IDF has excellent intelligence. The world's knee-jerk condemnation might be better aimed if it waited for the facts.
69
I don’t care what political party they belonged to, they were human beings who were killed from hundreds of years away by snipers. Most were teens or early twenties. That is a war crime, period.
2
Yes, all murderers come up with justifications for their crimes and they may really believe that bogus justification in their own heads. Always. No murderer would ever admit that he/she committed a crime. "Her skirt was too short", or "he checked out my wife" or "there were Hamas members in the crowds",...
1
Impossible situation from the get-go. Whose land is it? Which religious or offiical tract do you use for your evidence to state your claim? How much does the US provide Israel in money, arms, and support? How much to the other Arab nations much less Palestine? How does NIkki Haley use the word restraint w/o irony when settlements continue w/the blessings of Bibi et al, in spite of earlier protests by some in the US? It seems that we could in fact push harder for some relief for Palestinians, or perhaps we could have, before Hamas entered the fray. We lost that chance. We've none now but to continue to add fuel to the fire as we've done by moving the US embassy there. Ivanka wore a dress that matched the stone, limestone I think, of the building.
16
Interesting remark. However, it ignores the fact that the Israelis unilaterally withdrew from Gaza, leaving behind important infrastructure that the Palestinians could have used. Unfortunately, the Gaza Palestinians destroyed that infrastructure and, shortly thereafter, chose Hamas as their governing caste.
2
The Hamas just admitted that 50 of the casualties were members of the Hamas. People in Europe and the US do not understand that by strongly supporting the Hamas they are backing up their position of an Islamic country over the whole of Israel. This backup only postpones a two country peacful solution and strengthens the right wing in Israel for obvious reasons.
20
So, being a member of Hamas is now a capital offense?
I grew up in a Jewish family that strongly supported Zionism. I remember the button proudly worn by my Great Aunt. I remember the commemorative medallion my grandfather gave me celebrating Israel's victory in the Six Day War. I remember the donations to Israel; what we are seeing now represents an abandonment of values on an incredible scale.
I'm also tired of reading articles that dutifully repeat whatever justifications spoke people trot out after the shootings of many civilians. It's hard to believe that we would see similar coverage of similar events elsewhere.
143
An attitude that many Jews use to justify the unjustifiable: watch elsewhere so that we can keep on committing our insane but divine job.
3
Israel is only two years younger than me. I grew up with the image of the milk and honey in the dessert. How proud we were over the success of the Jewish state. How sad to see what Israel has been forced to become by the PLA and Hamas. Who was it that rejected the peace plans in the past? The ultra right in Israel is also a serious problem with their settlements in the West Bank.
A tragedy all around which has been made worse by bad people on both sides.
4
A peace plan that offers the Palestinians a "state" without control over its borders, hill tops, water, our highways, is an offer of permanent subjugation.
European Ghettos for Jews were wrong and Israeli Ghettos for Palestinians is wrong.
It seems that Israelis learned all of the wrong lessons from their abuse at the hands of Christians.
Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are all branches of the same religion, and way to much barbarity and violence comes from all three.
I'm unaware of any journalists asking why the citizens of Gaza don't attempt to force their way through the Rafah border crossing with their Egyptian neighbors. Perhaps it's with the knowledge that Egypt like Syria would certainly not tolerate the kind of rioting encouraged by Hamas and managed by Israel in a relatively humane way. How many Syrians have died in a protest that truly started without violence unlike the rioting promoted by Hamas. The Israelis have been forced to kill by the each whereas their neighbors don't seem to blink at killing by the thousands.
29
The article mentions, in passing and towards the end, that a substantial number of Hamas terrorists were using the civilians as human shields in an attack. That's not surprising but should have been the lede of this article and countless others like it.
15
IMHO, it's ironic that there was no Hamas until Israel invaded Lebanon to end PLO raids into Israel from there. With U.S. help, the PLO was removed to Tunisia, ending its contact with Palestinians in the occupied territories; Hamas was created to fill the void. There are signs that Hamas itself is mellowing; it's possible it will be supplanted by its most rabid activists. Arguably, some sort of political dialogue between the U.S. and Hamas could mitigate that prospect.
4
"“The only alternative would have been, in that case, to mow them down one and all,”"
Perhaps that would save lives in the long run. By illustrating how futile it is to run at professional soldiers.
6
Israel says at least 24 of 60 Gazans reported killed at border were terrorists.
Hamas is reportedly turning back trucks from Israel with medical supplies.
Source: timesofisrael.com (English).
The problems that the Gazans have is that they voted for Hamas to rule them in 2006. Hamas is a terrorist organization that brags about terrorist attacks of family restaurants such as Sbarro in Jerusalem. A civil war with Fatah ensued killing far, far more Palestinians than killed at the border wall. Hamas has not permitted new elections that were supposed to have nearly a decade ago in 2010. Hamas, unlike Fatah, refuses to recognize Israel, thus making peace an impossibility.
Egypt has closed their border with Gaza because terrorists from Gaza have killed Egyptian soldiers in Sinai.
The Gazans (and their brethren in The West Bank) are suffering from poor leadership. If only they would sign a peace agreement, their economic well-being would markedly improve. Israel is one of the most advanced economies on the planet, just two places below Japan on the Human Development Index.
With appropriate leadership, the Palestinians should have been benefiting from being next door to this powerful economy, unfortunately not much can be done until there are new elections with leaders that wish to improve the economic well-being of their citizens.
15
You have Palestinians that want Israel destroyed, an ego maniac incompetent demagogue like Trump and a despot like the leader of Israel.
Yet, the above are not the direct cause of the tragedy.
The citizens of all three countries are, electing incompetent leaders.
The position of the Israeli leader should have been, we view Jerusalem as our capital but will hold off on it till a final accord is met. The leader of the USA should have agreed to the policy and the Palestinians should not have rioted.
9
For outside parties (US, UK et al) to establish a new country in that area after more than a half century of their meddling in Middle Eastern affairs may have solved one problem (refugees from central and eastern Europe) but created another (refugees in the Middle East). For the US to tip the balance of power in the region with huge infusions of aid, much of it military, was bound to inflame even further and guarantee no permanent solution would be found. Add into the mix that Israel is based on religious identity and you have thrown gasoline on the fire and lit a match. How would we feel if Syria decided to take over part of Ohio or all of Riverside County in California and declare it a Muslim state for Syrian refugees? No fiction or "right of return" to cover over the forced land grab, but still an imposition of a solution from the outside without consent of those most affected.
12
The Zionist movement grew out of a legitimate nationalist movement, of a people scattered for two millenia returning to our homeland. As much as anyone may wish it were not true, Jews are an ethnicity as well as a religious group, with common ancestry (and there's DNA evidence to support that), a common language, common customs, a common religion (for the most part; Orthodox and Reform Judaism a very different theologies) and a nationalist sense of community, reinforced by the simple fact that the world will not let any of us forget that we were born Jews and remain Jews in the eyes of the world. Consider this: the world still considers Karl Marx, Felix Mendelssohn and Benjamin D'Israeli Jewish despite that they were all baptised Christians.
The Arab League expelled Jews from their countries, or allowed anti-Jewish violence to chase them out, flooding Israel with 850,000 refugees. They were all absorbed by the Jewish state. The Arab world CHOSE to allow 600,000 Arab refugees from the British Mandate to languish as refugees with only Jordan allowing them to become citizens.
While the world may choose to consider Israel a "colonial outpost", the reality is that virtually all Jews have their origins in the MIddle Ease and close to Half of Jewish Israeli belonging to families who came there from Arabic countries so they did not have to remain third-class citizens depending upon the kindness of strangers.
5
The online lead to this article describes Israelis as "defiant, defensive or blasé". Where exactly is the "sorrow" identified by the online headline?
96
Per The Onion, I would imagine the sorrow is over the damage to the border fence.
15
Yes indeed, where's the sorrow? In Ivanka's jubilant smile? Or Netanyahu's conqueror's
stance?
11
It is telling, though what it is telling I don't know, that there are no comments. Has it all been said, now?
This story makes my stomach hurt, and that is my comment.
18
Boy have I changed my opinion on Israel. I once had such admiration for them and the way they built this incredible country from nothing. But over the past few years, with their hard and merciless turn to the right, they certainly have lost my sympathy.
294
Me too. Especially as Jewish fundamentalists have become predominant. The are scarcely better than their Muslim fundamentalist enemies; or their Christian fundamentalist friends. The common dangerous thread: religion.
51
Israel turned Gaza over to the Palestinians, and see what happened. Instead of Gazans flourishing in their own country, Gaza became a hotbed of propaganda and terror against Israel.
By the way, the "demonstrations" were carried out precisely to pander to people like you. The more bodies, the more sympathy, the more power and funding to Hamas. Since it works so well they will continue to use the poor Gazans as cannon fodder. Hold yourself responsible.
18
Joanna Stelling -
Hamas has admitted that 50 of the 62 fatalities were Hamas members. Perhaps you should ask yourself whether that's the result of mercilessness or of an extremely successful effort at avoiding civilian casualties in the midst of planned chaos. I have to admire Israel for this.
13
Any comments by our esteemed members of Congress on the last disproportionate show of force used by our special friends in the Middle East against people living in the occupied Gaza protesting the unlivable conditions they are living under because of the United States policy in the Middle East?
Any mild rebukes, suggestions of restraint, not even a "it's not helpful for peace" canned response? Hello........???????
145
Did you even read the article? How would you have responded if in charge? We don’t live there and it is easy to second guess.
14
None, they all have their hands out for more money.
16
Putin owns the Whited House; Netayahu owns the Capitol Building.
12
The Palestinians believe they are right, they feel hopeless and helpless, and want freedom to cross the fence and have a future.
The Israelis believe they are right, they feel threatened, and want to protect their citizens from the threat of a mass incursion.
Both sides feel completely justified in their actions, there's no middle ground and no apparent solution in sight, and that's the Nakba or catastrophe of the situation.
60
They want to “cross the fence to have a future”? Who told you that? You mean they would have breached the fence yesterday and, what, start planting trees? Let’s at least start from the reality that they were out blood and go from there.
21
Well said, indeed. Thank you for your fair-minded comment.
3
@Jon:
In 2006, the Palestinians elected Hamas, a terrorist organization that brags about bombing family restaurants such as Sbarro in Jerusalem to lead them. A civil war with the other party, Fatah, ensued killing many Palestinians.
Hamas has not permitted elections were supposed to have occurred in 2010, almost a decade ago.
Egypt closed its border with Gaza because terrorists from Gaza were killing Egyptian soldiers in Sinai.
By electing Hamas, the Palestinians including Hamas have only themselves to blame.
Until there are new elections that elect leadership that are interested in peace, there is nothing Israeli or any other country in the US can do.
9
I was at the border fence several years ago. There was a greenfield stretching several hundred yards in Gaza. The Israelis who took me to the fence said that they use to go to Gaza and buy vegetables. ll that cahnged with Hmas. Very sad.
27
So the Gazans did nothing now for several years, that is they were peaceful, but what have the Israelis done. Nothing but take more land and block attempts to improve the Palestinians environment.
6
I’m not sure if you are aware but much of the land on the Gazan side of the border adjacent to the border fence is under extreme restrictions to use by the Israelis. The NyTimes has a great illustration that you should look up, which may illuminate you as to why the Palestinians haven’t fully utilized this land.
2
Had Hamas recognized Israel the border would be open as it was years ago