Australia also has $3 trillion in foreign debt.
Historically though, the U.S. was once way out in front of almost all other countries in providing cheap or even free teriary education.
Th G.I. Bill of 1944 enabled returning U.S. servicemen access to free hight school and uniuversiry education, as well as other benefits like low mortgage loans. It is acknowledged to have been a major contribution to the advancement of the U.S. socially and technically through the post-war period through to the late '60's.
So what has happened since then? Short-sighted neo-con economic rationalism has taken over, which only sees the bottom $ line and not the long term benefits of anything.
So, in reverse gear goes the U.S. in both healthcare and education.
5
One Australian wrote, "Surely you want to promote access to education in the U.S.?"
No, we don't. Not any more. No more than we want people to have universal access to needed medical care. We have adopted the market as the ultimate arbiter and we only want people to have access to what they personally can afford.
Would it be better for the US to have increased access to education and health care? Of course. But that's not what the market wants.
1
Paraphrasing the line out of Hamilton:
Students, we get the job done.
Sad to say, students are doing their part to pay for tax cuts for the wealthy and corporations.
2
This is what happens when you have the fox in charge of the hen house. Todays US congress and president benefit by the uneducated. If you remove hurdles to education that would limit their wealth and power. I laugh when they talk about their "public service" they usually are millionaires, put time bilking the system making themselves and their cronies all more rich so they can kept donating money to their campaign and keep the cycle going. Meanwhile the underclass bear the brunt with high taxes,low services. What other countries don't understand is the lack of morals/shame and high corruption in the US polititions
8
Nothing will change as we have “leaders” who are stupid and venal. They are interested in making money off their constituents. How many of these senators, Congress persons and presidents go on to become multi-multi millionaires? All of them. The tax cut was nothing but legislators gifting themselves even more money. And idiots fall for it. That’s why airwaves and internet are filled with propaganda promoting hatred between Americans. Because when people are divided by tribalism don’t pay attention to anything else. They get satisfaction from chanting slogans and buzzwords.
9
America is caught in this loop. Many believe government is by definition not dynamic. (An untruth in many other countries.) Yet, this is because the US government programs can act in a very un-dynamic way. This does not have to be the case.
If you look at Australian Government websites and application forms for participation in Federal programs you will find user-friendly, well managed, easy to follow step-by-step instructions. When I lived in NY and accessed any US government websites and Federal forms, I could not believe how convoluted they were.
This issue goes to the foundation of why people mistrust government to do the work well. Get government communications (Not only policy) moving in a way that is not bureaucratic, but easy for people to follow, and people will believe the government can do more.
4
In evaluating the university loan situation in Australia, the value of the education received must also be considered. A few decades ago, universities were top-notch by world standards and very cheap (at one time free) to students. But beginning with "reforms" in the 1990's, the government has cut their funding again and again, and yet again. The system has compensated to a limited extent by "reorganizations" which have converted education toward an assembly-line system. Meanwhile the government has discovered that tertiary education is a nifty "export industry", which it markets to the wealthy in overseas countries. Naturally, those money-making students receive keen attention from university administrators.
The result is that Australian students can now obtain an adequate education at local institutions, but clearly not outstanding compared to the better universities overseas.
College finance in the U.S. may be nightmare, but think about all that it buys: luxury dorms; athletic centers with everything from climbing walls to lazy rivers; pro-level stadiums and training facilities for its athletes; very well-compensated football coaches; new academic buildings that are 70% atrium, 20% office space, and 10% classroom; and an admin to professor ratio of 3:1.
16
Those that can, do. Emigrate that is. While not that common, I've know a few professional families that left for other countries after tiring of the poor price performance for living in America-- medical and educational particularly. If you aren't either very wealthy or desperately poor, America is becoming a less pleasant place to live.
4
There are no joys for the poor. Do not kid yourself.
6
Great article, unfortunately here in the US we are told that programs that support our youth such as those described in Australia and Germany are the "tyranny of socialism". Oh the horror?
11
College tuition has been rising at 5%per year, doubling every 12 to 15 years. Salaries haven't been rising at 5% per year. We are told that college is a good investment, but how many investment advisors would say a stock that was a good investment at X price will say that automatically makes it a good investment at 1.5X or 2X?
6
The difference is that American colleges are primarily interested in money, not in education. Thus the exorbitant fees, the useless majors in underwater basket weaving and gender studies, etc., etc., etc.
By contrast, most other countries - such as Australia - focus on education. When that is your focus, the rest of it snaps into place.
3
In these countries, students have to take an entrance exam. This determines whether they go to University, where they go, what they can study etc. Im fine with that approach in the US. We will have less "gender studies" majors defaulting on their debt.
4
Having lived there for 5 years recently let me say that Americans can learn a lot from our Aussie friends besides just their higher education financing scheme, which by the way I fully agree with. Their health care system also bears scrutiny by Americans too.
8
According to an Australian friend, most college students live at home and commute, which of course, cuts way down on the costs. It sounds like they use the tax system to pay off any loans at a low rate. What a great idea! We have so much to learn from other countries, why don't we?
14
My thoughts are extremely simple: skip the college altogether. If you're compelled still to enter the campus life, do it later in life, perhaps at 27-28, instead of 19, and go thru the community college - local (public) school route. Better yet, have your employee pay your tuition for you studying on-line. There are many ways for the smart responsible individuals. If you don't find them in this country, the blame is on you. My hubby teaches at NYU: the amount of boneheaded 19-20 year olds who do nothing buy party at school is staggering. He recently asked a student who failed his mechanics of solids class for the third time in the row, why he wants to be an engineer. - "Because my dad told me so, and he is paying for it,"- came the reply. REALLY?!
8
Being one of those older students who used student loans to get the graduate degrees I needed for a professional job over two careers, I find the Australian system extremely rational and worth application here in the U.S.
We act like this is the U.S. of the early 1900s when High School was enough to get a good job on. Now, you need some form of higher education including certificates for tech jobs which require at least 18 months of training. Given that reality and the inability of many to pay for that education without assistance, it is time for the country to address the possibility of investing in its human capital and stop assuming that anyone who needs assistance is poor or unfit. Students are "Resources in Training" and therefore should get all the assistance possible from both the government and private sectors to ensure that the human capital is prepared to keep the country float and competitive.
We need to stop the anti-intellectualism and recognize that American growth and stability depend on what and how we fund higher education. If not, we sink into status similar to some third world countries.
15
We just returned to the US after 10 years in Australia where I taught at an Australian university and my children attended the public schools. Yes loans in the US are insane. But what is not mentioned, is that in Australia forty percent of families in cities send their children to private schools that cost around 35,000 per year. (And the government subsidises private schools--which is why many have swimming pools, movie theatres, etc, while the public schools are falling apart.) When applying to universities, children from private schools have countless unfair advantages that results in them having much higher VCE scores (university entry is based on VCE tests that are similar to the British system). These elevated scores for private schools kids allow them to get into the better universities and major in better degrees (eg. pre-med) since school acceptance is based almost entirely on VCE scores. We chose to return to the US because we felt that as public school advocates, our children in Australia were at a deep disadvantage since they attended public schools and thus had a much lower chance of scoring high enough to get into the better majors at the better universities. This is the reason that Melbourne and Sydney are two of the most deeply class divided cities in the world--the system is all set up to advantage private school kids (which is why nearly every member of government attended public schools).
8
Thank you for that inside view, that is not basically tinged with liberal anti-Americanism, inferiority complex ("why can't we be like Europe and Australia?") and anti-Trump animus (like he created this problem? in 16 months?). I do know most Aussie kids go to private schools, but had no idea it cost so much. If you post back here....I'd be curious why the public schools in Australia are so terrible, given your nation is so tiny (24 million) compared to the USA, and almost entirely white/asian with very strict borders and immigration laws.
3
The suggestion that the “average” private school tuition is $35,000 is nonsense. My son attends one of the most expensive schools in Sydney and it costs about A$22,000 - or about $18k USD. Obviously there are schools that costs far less.
It is also not true that the public schools are falling apart. Having grown up in the US I can assure you that the public school system here compares very favorably.
Of course wealthier kids that attend the best schools and have more advantages are... advantaged. Show me a country where that is not the case. But the fact is that is that no would-be university student in Australia need elect not to attend because they cannot afford it.
2
Interesting perspective that isn't backed up by research that I've read into Australian schools. Yes, a SCHOOL may receive higher average VCE scores but a given student does not received significantly higher scores by going to a private school. This is an amazing correlation v causation error from a university lecturer. ie. The differences are believed to be caused by parent education level, parent resources, reading at home, support for education at home, socioeconomic group and friends and private tutoring/mentoring. Not the school itself which has a smaller effect.
1
"Surely you want to promote access to education in the U.S.?"
No, Andrew, they don't. There is deliberate policy in place, and intense hostility toward education and intellectual development from half of the political spectrum, that is intended to discourage study. There is a long-established anti-intellectual culture in the US. It is rampant in the US South and West, states that consistently fall at the wrong end of educational, health and social attainment. Their politicians keep it that way decade after decade. The same politicians that are running the country today.
13
This country does not EVERY HS grad to go to college. it is obscene and irrational. Let us stop lying to our youth that college is the ONLY way forward. it is not.
5
I have two sons who grew up in a bilingual German-American home in the USA. Both went to college here in the USA. We paid for that partly, they also received scholarships. Both studied for graduate degrees in Germany. The German government has a quota which permits a certain % of the student body to study free of tuition. The German government considers this to be an important international relations tool. My older boy received his MD degree there and took the exams to practice here. We sent monthly sums for room and board. He assumed his first position in the USA as a doctor without any debt whatsoever. Our younger son had accumulated some college debt while studying here. He finished his engineering degree in Germany also at German government expense and we paid off his $ 23,000 USA college debt when he began earning as an engineer in Germany. He continues to live there. Both entered their first jobs free of any debt. Most countries recognize education is very important. Americans recognize this as an important obligation through K12. But college and graduate degrees continue to be viewed elitist in the USA. My wife and I have both professional graduate degrees from Germany and from the USA. We appreciate the personal attention often given to graduate students in elite institutions here. Overall, public educational obligations beyond high school is taken far more seriously in western European countries than here.
14
I get that real Americans don't believe in public welfare (ugh...that word). That citizens need to quit whining, thank God they're born into the best country ever to exist anywhere, and get to work.
You want healthcare? Ours may not be the greatest, but at least we recognize a profit center when we see one. If you can't manage to keep yourself healthy, maybe you don't deserve to be healthy. Anyway you can get what care we do have, as long as you can pay for it.
Education? First, let's be clear, American education is not about improving your life or (as if this could happen) you improving life for America. Its about getting the best connections, the best jobs, the best lives. If you worry about massive debt, you're in the wrong place.
We Americans love to harp on brutal pre-college selection systems in other countries. We have one too, but ours operates post-college. If you're not on the Harvard side of that score, game over Chucko.
But really this whole thing is not about college choice or social justice, its about the corruption and infantile understanding of economics that rules in Washington, and allows our nation to court mediocrity and brain drain just so an already wealthy few can profit, with little risk, and become corrupt politicians.
As stupid as our education system has become, this enduring creation of a debauched rich class is really kind of brilliant.
We're America. Its what we do. Its pretty much all we do these days.
22
Though there are advantages from attending Harvard or the other Ivies...it is not so absolute that Americans who attend good state universities and/or non-Ivy colleges are incapable of success. I'd say the majority of highly successful people in the US DID NOT go to the Ivies, by simple math -- Harvard only graduates a few hundred students each year.
6
Bunch of socialist entitled takers. Back in my day we had gumption and bootstraps and didn't need handouts. I attended the School of Hard Knocks and turned out fine, by gumbo.
5
We so want to be a third world country. We are well on the way: education, medicine, infrastructure, socioeconomic mobility. Yep—looking more third world every day.
11
Uh....we have the best, most desirable colleges IN THE WORLD and foreign students clamor to study here (even when college is "free" in their home nations).....we have the best, most advanced cutting-edge medicine....the best doctors from around THE WORLD....people come to the US for medical treatment from around the world, even royalty who could afford anything. Your problem is lefty liberal myopia and political correctness that has hated on America and American values for the last 50+ years.
2
How I wish America would begin retreating from its insane preoccupation with protecting the entire world with its expensive military, letting Europe, Japan, Korea protect themselves via their own armies and navies, and letting us instead spend our tax dollars on education and free health care and eliminating poverty in this wealthiest of nations. For too long, the rest of the world has enjoyed free universities and health care because Uncle Sucker has borne the burden of defending THEIR social benefits with OUR tax dollars spent on OUR military. No more!!
5
Yet when Trump wants to withdraw from this...the lefties and the NYT scream bloody murder.
3
So are you saying the US is pulling back it's armies and investing all that money into providing education and healthcare, when you say "no more"? If so, you would be disappointed. The military budget is so bloated because it is intended to be. The justification for it is meaningless.
4
The rich get richer, the poor get poorer. It's the American way !
7
Sadly too many of the “solutions” in the comments section for Americans involve leaving the land of their birth. Unresponsive politics? Move to Canada, Expensive healthcare? move to Scandinavia, college unattainable? Move to Australia. Can’t find work after university? Shanghai beckons.
I simply don’t buy it. College is expensive but over a lifetime Americans with college degrees earn more, have more and do more than those without. Most top universities in the world are American. Many elite European, Asian students try hard to get graduate degrees from US institutions.
There is lots of blame to go around but the lack of basic financial literacy is one of them. Taking on 100k in loans for a degree with limited career prospects is foolhardy.
4
RC: it is obviously impossible for more than a tiny sliver of American students to go to Europe or Australia for college. If more than tiny sliver did...they would overwhelm those smaller nations and end up being shut out. And it is just not possible for average Americans to move to those other nations -- they ALL have strict immigration rules that exclude most Americans!!!!
2
In New Zealand (NOT part of Australia!):
"From 1 January 2018 all New Zealand students who finish school in 2017, or will finish school during 2018, qualify for a year of free provider based tertiary education or industry training.
This policy will also benefit those who aren’t school leavers. Adults who have previously studied for less than half full time year of tertiary education or industry training also will qualify for fees free." ~ New Zealand Government
Student loans over here do not carry any interest if you are a Permanent Resident/NZ Citizen. Our students also get a generous accommodation supplement - part of which does not need to be repaid.
Students need to start making repayments on their student loans once they earn over $19,448 a year before tax ($374 a week before tax). For example, if they earn $600 a week before tax their repayment will be $27.12 ($600 - $374 x 0.12 = $27.12).
If they earn under the repayment threshold no deductions will be made from their income. Australia? Pffft...
8
Just another example of the fact that a government run by corporations favors corporations and their investors over the rest of the public.
Republicans have a very large percentage of working Americans hoodwinked into believing the private sector always create better more efficient service systems than the government.
This is because a portion of corporate profits is invested in propaganda and politicians who themselves work as propagandists in exchange for campaign contributions and a very wide range of other "generous" perks- all at the expense of the said hoodwinked working public.
It ain't for nothing Americans pay almost double the international average for health care and get fleeced on education loans. Of course the list goes on and on and on.
American democracy- a perpetual motion machine of corruption.
5
College and University education in the US costs too much money. Obviously the worst are the private schools, but state funded or defunded schools are closing the gap. Meanwhile, businesses are screaming for more imported H1B professionals from China and India, because, they say they can't find enough qualified graduates here in the US. Many of the H1Bs have little or no college loan costs so they are practically debt free when they arrive here to compete with Americans who are burdened with debt. Amazon, Microsoft, Google, Apple, etc are the primary abusers of this scheme and should have been paying extra taxes for every foreighn hire brought into this country.
6
Lets not forget that Congress has created this system. Congress has raised interest rates above market rates (car loans are cheaper). Congress also allows too many private, for-profit so-called colleges to charge high fees for very little real academic achievement. Until the politics are taken out of the college loan business in the US the system is nothing but a get rich scheme for some banks and corporations. And, while pushing this scheme Red States in particular have cut funding for public universities forcing tuition increases and smaller student enrollment.
5
The number of international students studying at Australian universities has been rising steadily for a number of years. In my experience, these international students pay roughly quadruple what I pay as a domestic student and are not eligible for government support. This is because government loans for education are paid back once your Australian taxable income reaches a certain level, and most international students return to their country of origin upon finishing their degree. This is an advantage for the Australian government as not only do they not have to support these international students, but the fees they pay mean that generally only the wealthy can afford to send their children overseas, who then support the Australian economy.
Another perspective that is potentially ignored in this article are those students who think paying anything at all for university is too much. Certainly, at the University of Sydney there is a strong push for university to be made free for all as it was for my parent's generation.
1
In the US, taxpayers pay for grants that fund the research of faculty at universities. The more grants a university gets, the higher its ranking and the more it can charge for tuition, etc. So, taxpayer funds are used not to help make college more affordable but to make it more expensive. As a professor, I am disgusted with the entire system. There is no reason for private colleges to cost $65,000/year and public colleges to cost close to that for out of state students and a fairly large fraction for in-state students. Whom exactly do we serve? Ourselves or our students? Let's stop the vicious cycle of tuition increases and focus more on cost effective education.
8
The point that no one is mentioning is there are State Schools that educated 75% of college graduates in America that are affordable. Though private schools educate only 25% of the students they are 90% of student loan debt and almost 100% of defaulted loans. We don’t have a problem with affordable education we have a problem with consumers not knowing what they are buying. Why should tax payers be forced to subsidize idiots who waste money on overpriced or worthless degrees from private schools. No pity for parents or kids that chose $50k private schools when they have a state school that is in most cases better and 1/2 the price.
5
In Australia, and elsewhere, where the student loans are collected through taxes on their salary, the people who got their loans are paying them back through the TAXES THEY PAY FROM THEIR OWN JOBS.
We do have a problem with affordable education. US student loans charge a whole bunch of interest which takes forever to pay off and is a burden on graduates, sometimes for decades.
The key point you seem to be missing is that some other countries do it better and it works real well.
4
The nearby state university where I live is now unaffordable for middle-class students. More and more of the students are from Middle Eastern countries where their governments pay their tuition. It's good to have international students but lots of Oklahomans can't afford to go to state colleges anymore.
3
Public colleges with room and board are easily 25,000 a year.
2
As an Australian familiar with the U.S. system, it is astounding to me that, just like U.S. health care, the entire uber-capitalist system is set up to benefit the rich at the expense of the poor. Surely you want to promote access to education in the U.S.? It is a tragedy when anyone with the ability, drive and desire to access education is prevented from doing so for purely financial reasons. Everyone benefits from an educated population. — Andrew, Australia
Nothing else needs to be said except slowly, and surely, the US is eating its seed corn...
13
One thing people don’t realize is the entire loan system is a total scam, especially for graduate students. In 2011-15 when I was in graduate school “subsidized” undergraduate loans were around 3.5% interest while inflation was 0% and car loans and mortgages were regularly under 3%. Unsubsidized federal loans (subsidized loans are not available to graduate students), however, were 6.5-7%. Think about that for a minute. At time of 0% inflation federal loans for STUDENTS were 7%. That interest adds up QUICK. This is how people acquire crippling debt, since few people earn big salaries right out of school.
The government tried to pair with the “free market“ to provide cheaper loans and all we got is overly priced universities and above market interest rates.
12
The percentage of Australian high school graduates who go on to attend college is about half that of US graduates. Maybe this explains why there's less of an issue down under.
5
Could I ask where you found this information? Information that I found from the ANU indicated that approximately 55% of high school graduates go on to study a bachelor's degree (not including vocational training).
In my opinion, what is "less of an issue" in Australia is the fact that tuition fees are not a hurdle for the vast majority of Australians attending university, with the availability of government loans and the regulation of undergraduate degree fees.
4
When I started college in 1955 at the University of Washington, the premier state University, my quarterly tuition and fees were $65, (1955 dollars). My dorm costs (meals and room with roommate) were $175/quarter. If I spent $30 for ALL my books (Forestry, Botany, Physics, Math) I thought I was being ripped off. My total cost for that full academic year was $1,065.00
Yes, I was on a very tight budget. But, I did not have to work part time. Two years ago I calculated the compound growth rate of Tuition and Fees at the U of W today from 1955. It was 6.2%, double the rate of inflation over that period of time. So, there is problem No. 1. No cost control at Universities because they can't go broke. Corollary---the Legislature started reducing per student support to 'save money'. Yah.
Problem No. 2 is the students must attend with all the electronics of our age. I went with a portable typewriter and a slide rule. Only one person in my 120-person dorm "house" had a hi-fi (that's with records and speakers and amplifier).
Problem No. 3 is that the costs of meals and housing have soared out of sight. It's hard to compare because everything has been unbundled.
What we have to realize is that education is a long term benefit to the USA. STEM degrees pay back, BIG. Others, less so and some, not at all. Maybe dollar support could be channeled?
Will we wake up and emulate Australia?
3
Payback from education should not be measured solely in dollars and projected income. It is far more valuable than that to family, community, society and culture.
1
My liberal arts degree from 1974 enabled me to switch employment fields as needed over decades, culminating in a computer support and database design track. I was able to learn and adapt to systems from DOS 2.11 through Windows NT and network architecture. One of my most useful college courses 'Formal Logic' in the Philosophy department was excellent training for working with Algorithms.
I'm more than a little worried about the current tendency to see colleges as merely advanced trade schools. Will these graduates be able to adapt to future challenges? When I graduated from university there were no personal computers, no internet, no WiFi* and no cell phones. Will current narrowly educated computer science majors be able to adapt to similar changes during their working lives?
* My husband and I for many years planned on home cable runs behind baseboards or chair rails. By the time we had a house and the financial ability to add to a remodel this it was no longer necessary. All of the devices we had wanted to connect plus the newer tablets and phones could be used from anywhere in the house via a wireless router.
1
But the people who do the work to provide higher ed, from professors to grounds keepers, like to get paid in money, not good feelings.
And the value, monetary or other, of some educational endeavors seems dubious to family, community, etc.
in 1969 my full year tuition at a private American University was $1,860.00. about $20,000 In 2018 dollars. A Pell grant plus a state grant I received because I attended a private university covered more than 1/2 my tuition. The tuition at that same university is now $50,000+ dollars a year. Sorry but capitalism has once again failed American Students.
22
There are state schools that are of equal quality and much cheaper. I started college in 1969 at a WI state school and tuition was $212.00 for 16 credits for a semester. That was a full credit load per semester. Young people are getting conned by this expensive college business. In ten years robots will be able to do even the most complicated jobs so why spend money this way. Better to go to a tech school and learn a useful trade. Want to do liberal arts? Read books on your own and form a discussion group.
1
Blame greedy colleges and blame the whole Federally guaranteed loan structure -- because colleges KNEW that students could borrow huge amounts, they jacked up tuition to the moon.
1
Most of the European countries and the Aus-NZ college systems have decided that the average person who has no interest in college should subsidize those few who decide that college is their life.
In the USA, there is a conscious decision that if you decide that a college education is good for your life goals then you and not someone else should pay for that conviction.
I am sure that there are many students in these colleges who see the groundskeeper at their university and are glad that he is paying part of his income so that they can write a paper on romance literature in the 16th century.
5
"Most of the European countries and the Aus-NZ college systems have decided that the average person who has no interest in college should subsidize those few who decide that college is their life."
And yet those European countries are all more egalitarian economically than the U.S. Not every transaction has to be seen through an egalitarian prism. What is important is the end result, after taxation and subsidies. Provide cheap university education; tax progressively. Try it; it works.
7
They are more egalitarian in Europe only because most people are generally poorer. Take the median European wage and compare it to the median American wage, and you will find that Americans make about 25% more, AND have a lower cost of living.
Those who have no children subsidize the education of other people children. People subsidize vocational school their children don't use. People subsidize medical schools attended by a select few. Where is it written that people shouldn't subsidize facilities they don't use. Sorry a tired lame argument.
5
Only 30-40% of jobs actually require a college education to perform yet we blindly allow all those who want a college education to pursue it. Let’s start assessing kids in elementary school and aptitude testing by middle school to determine who is fully capable of the work then cull that down to numbers that coincide with the actual workers and skills that businesses require. The NYT has written about a glut of lawyers and a simultaneous shortage of truck drivers. The military which uses an extensive aptitude testing protocol never has this problem.
7
Be careful not put too much stock into IQ and aptitude tests - there are people who's results are average and they achieve well above their more intelligent peers because of a thirst for knowledge and choosing a field they are passionate about.
Some highly gifted students are so used to doing the minimum work and achieving well at school, they flunk out of university because they never learned how to study.
Your theory of selection on the basis of tests is seriously flawed. Everybody needs to have equal access to higher education. What you are suggesting is Orwellian and discriminatory, also highly impractical.
1
Thanks for this. This topic cannot get enough attention. On top of their crushing loans, College grads in America are losing ground in the wages they can expect after graduation.(according to the Economic Policy Institute).
This article downplays the high cost of higher education in America compared to other nations, but fixing our student debt and repayment problem is certainly an important part of the battle to educate more of our population and launch them into productive, prosperous, rewarding lives.
6
What did you expect when we, as a society, pushed more people onto the college track? As Bryan Caplan and others have pointed out, employers have inflated credentials required for many jobs (without increasing pay), and diminished the significance of a degree.
And the promise that more better educated people would lead to higher productivity does not look true.
1
Although I know times have changed since I went to university, I am having some difficulty feeling great sympathy for American students about their debt loads. To be sure, when I was at university, costs were lower. Still, I came from a very poor family and had to take out loans to supplement scholarships I had won. The entire time, I was absolutely determined to avoid a long-term financial burden, so I held down two menial jobs as a student, had limited social life by today's standards, lived very cheaply, owned no car (it was Greyhound to get home), took no spring breaks in Florida and focused on my studies. In contrast, I hear about students today who have a lot of discretion over the use of their loan money and they use it to buy cars, put themselves up with buddies in really nice housing, take spring break trips to Florida, and on and on. So, it's a question of priorities. What is more important to you??
4
One Aussie here says, "Everyone benefits from an educated population."
The problem here is that the rich get richer from an uneducated populace. Also populism and authoritarianism benefit from an uneducated populace.
Keeping education expensive, and the educated in financial chains is a calculated move.
54
well stated. That was exactly my reaction to the quote about the benefits of education. It seems that one political party in America is bent on destroying the public education system and making a quality education solely for the very wealthy.
10
The sad, sad thing is that in America now, if politicians tried to reform the system, our government is so corrupt that a "solution" would involve higher interest payments, privatization, misleading information, and enrichment of banks and financial companies. And no one cares.
22
I had both college and law school loans. Later on in life I paid for an M.B.A. out of my own pocket. I could have bought an extremely nice house for what I repaid. However, these socialists miss the advantage of high debt in the U.S. and why capitalism works. Knowing that you are going to have to repay a lot should focus the individual to either make a firm commitment or a different choice. I would love to visit Australia and think alot of Aussies, but I would not change any system that we have for an Aussies.
2
And the other group of folks that get very little attention are the parents that got student loans for their kids. The lure of a slightly lower interest rate drove lots of parents (like me) to help offset the ridiculous costs. Yes, it was my decision, but the outcome is the same for parents as it is for students...
9
"...the entire uber-capitalist system is set up to benefit the rich at the expense of the poor. Surely you want to promote access to education in the U.S.? It is a tragedy when anyone with the ability, drive and desire to access education is prevented from doing so for purely financial reasons. Everyone benefits from an educated population."
Sadly mistaken on all but the first point. There is a dark, repressive streak in American money and power that wants to keep the populace undereducated. The better to exploit and control. Higher education financing is just yet another government-guaranteed cash flow for the grifters to skim, another opportunity for connected rentiers to get the gravy. Why do you think the likes of Betsy DeVos and the US Congress are working so hard to preserve it?
26
You can pervert anything in life including motherhood, apple pie and yes education.
We have perverted education in this country.
In the 1970-1980s in America in many major cities we opened up many public colleges to everybody for free. It turned the colleges into joke status.
Today we laden all students even in public colleges with massive debt their whole life.
Common sense tells you there is a better way like it was pre 1970s, when in public colleges there were standards but tuition was free or low cost.
9
The easy money that flows as a result of government backed loans has perverted the cost of college. Our entitlement society that says you get to have whatever your heart desires has perverted the idea of attending college.
5
What free colleges were jokes? When I went to college during that period the truly free universities CCNY and the California system were the envy's of the world.
5
Agreed From...but that was circa 1980 ish, but now you have the opposite where college kids are forever whetted to debt for the rest of their lives.
The American way of debt
1
Remember, America is the all time leader and record holder in one category where it excels way beyond all others.
GREED.
40
Don't forget ENVY.
4
JUNGLE CAPITALISM #22:
The US education loan system is PREDATORY. It has been designed as yet another way to squeeze money out of people who hope for a better life.
35
If we are not careful, they will have to build a wall or two to keep Americans from leaving the country.
4
I cannot understand why a country that so prizes innovation and entrepreneurship would routinely saddle it's best and brightest ( the University bound HS grads ) with a heavy debt burden at the very front of their adult life. It makes no sense unless you are in the collections business or are a Bankster.
8
Worse welcome in educated children from countries with highly subsidized education. Sticking to to American students from both sides.
1
Why don't American college students just move abroad? There are several nations, such as Germany, where free English-language instruction is available even to expatriates. If you are a student or parent of a student reading this, please consider attending university abroad.
12
Come on, this would be unfair to the German taxpayer paying for your education if you do not stay.
1
Interesting you should mention that. There are a number of American students who are doing just that in places like Denmark, Germany, and the Republic of Ireland.
I do not see the poor being able to afford a plane ticket to Deutschland and definitely not food and accommodation. I wonder if the underschooled, overworked masses are aware that IQ applies to all races equally. It does not mean you are stupid if you are semiliterate because of poor education. I wonder how many people in America die without reaching their full potential because they could not afford to go to University. It is very sad...
Make no mistake, the system is designed to encourage default. The complexity of making student loan payments is astonishing! I am a 50year old professional. I hold a B.A. in economics, and an M.A. in social sciences (moderate Republican - for those tempted to troll). If someone like me finds the repayment system mystifying, how can we expect 22 year olds to figure it out?!? For one four-year B.A., several different lenders all with their own systems and virtually no communication. The problem is not deadbeat kids - it's complexity and lack of customer service.
26
A key difference between the US and the Australian education systems is that where you go to Uni in Australia is all determined by your 12th year test scores. For this reason, the competition to get into the best college programs starts in secondary school where many families pay for their kids to attend expensive prep schools so they can get higher 12th year scores. In many cases the prep school tuition is more expensive than Uni. Also, liberal arts colleges do not exist in Australia. Typically when you enroll in Uni you are on a particular professional vocation track. I'm not saying that's better or worse. Just a difference between the systems that is glossed over in this article focused on cost models.
14
Thanks for the additional info, BH. Most Americans who wish for free or low cost higher ed "like those other countries" have no idea how those countries control access and choice. They certainly do not allow any student to pursue any frivolous degree.
2
'Liberal arts colleges do not exist in Australia'; no, the colleges don't exist, but the degrees do. You can do a BA at almost any institution in Australia and pursue any subjects you want in it, from English lit to philosophy to music to econ, etc. Some will make you pick two majors, but you still get a broad choice. Similarly, some universities now offer a British-style PPE (philosophy, politics, economics)- there are 10-20 000 students enrolled in BAs at many Australian universities, as you can see here (https://gooduniversities.com.au/best-bachelor-arts-degrees/). Additionally, many students will do dual degrees, eg Law/Arts at my alma mater almost every law student did a dual degree, ie Arts, Science, Commerce, Econ, etc.
1
30 plus years ago we scrimped and we scrapped but got all our boys through college debt free. It will not be possible for my boys to be able to do this for their kids with the increasing wealth of the country going to the top 1%. The populace has to start seriously considering what sort of society we want.
38
" .. It will not be possible for my boys to be able to do this for their kids with the increasing wealth of the country going to the top 1% .."
Got some proof?
I've worked all over the world. The USA has the most generous approach to higher ed. All one needs to get into a USA college (and get taxpayer-subsidized loans) is an SAT of 47% and a pulse. Jay Greene, PhD, has shown that ~97% of USA college applicants get accepted.
2
You miss the point. It's not a matter of GETTING into college, it's a matter of PAYING for college.
Cost of higher education is a basic reason we are falling behind competitively. There are smart Americans in all social classes which could benefit the country in all fields. International students are in some cases, compensated by their governments to attend American universities, but after graduation, we cannot retain their talent. Salaries are also lower than in Europe and Canada. This is sad considering we are the leader of the free world.
6
Marilyn, I have taught some international students. Many are talented and dedicated (and more than a few do stay in the US), but some are not worth retaining.
As for relative pay levels in the US, you are wrong. I worked for and with people in multi-national corporations and small companies. The most common gripe in Canada, UK, and Europe was about how people in similar jobs and grades got less pay than their counterparts in the US. Better benefits, maybe--better pay, no.
1
The upper class elected representatives in the U.S. are clueless about the adverse impacts of their national student loan policies because they can afford to pay for their children's tuition. They could care less about those who cannot.
22
I'm an Australian living in the US and I don't think myself and my siblings would have been able to go to university if we were born in America.
I still have a student loan to pay back but the system taking out of each paycheck works wonders because you don't think about it. It only works if you earn money in Australia so I haven't paid anything for the past few years, mostly because I know I will eventually pay it when I move back. They recently put a stop to people not paying by making it compulsory for Aussie expats to pay their loan back, I will have to pay a percentage of my US income converted to AUD. In line with what other Australians are paying, it is very fair. The only interest added to my loan is when its indexed once a year and that is about $300, for about $22k. Overall I'm pretty lucky but the system isn't perfect. Youth Allowance is great but waiting until you're 22yo is too old. Most people start uni at 18/19. It is especially hard for regional and rural students moving to big cities. We have a great system but it can definitely be improved.
6
What is a typical path for students in Australia? Does everyone need to go to college? Is the education system better than the US (K-12) - won't be hard to top ours. Do they have an apprentice system? These questions need to answered. The US system is broken in so many ways, not just in cost. Our students have few options because everyone believes that "you have to go to college" and the reality is that you don't.
23
The typical pathway for Australian students is to university. To be eligible you have to have completed year 12 with most universities having a cut off score for entrance (anywhere between 50 and 70% depending on the degree and university prestige. Most universities offer undergraduate degrees, however many of the professional pathways (eg medicine, law, engineering) that are popular with high achieving schools students are offered as post-graduate, like the US. There are apprenticeship or as they are referred to in Aus vocational pathways to many careers. These are offered at schools as an alternative to the tertiary entrance exams for years 11 and 12, and can also provide an alternate entrance pathway to university. I had a friend complete 2/3 of the nursing vocational training while at high school and she only had to do a year of uni before being a qualified enrolled nurse - two years faster than the average pathway to nursing through uni. You can access government loans for vocational training too - but they often have some up front payments required. However, many high school graduates feel as though university is the only option after school. It has been widely reported in the news recently that the drop out rate within the three years it takes to complete an undergraduate degree is about 20% at Australian universities, just going to show that access doesn’t always equate to good education
10
With a population of 4,793,700 in New Zealand (NOT part of Australia!!), we have at least 50,000 international students at our universities. You can find employment anywhere in the world with a degree from one one of the excellent universities here.
The first year of study at any tertiary provider is free to all New Zealand Citizens/Permanent Residence who finish their High School education in 2017/2018. The same free fees rules apply for apprenticeships.
There is zero interest on all student loans for NZ citizens. Graduates have to start repaying their interest free student loans once their income reaches $300 per week before tax. If they can't find work or they receive a an income below $300 per week, they do not have to pay back the student loan and no interest is added.
As an aside, we also have free hospital care and children up to the age of 18 get free medical and dental care. New Zealand is rated as the eighth happiest country in the world, Canada is seventh and Australia 10th. The United States is 18th on the list. We had two terms of a National Party government where nothing was done to improve the fate of the very poor. Hence the free tertiary education, a commitment to reduce child poverty (mostly amongst our indigenous people). Our (very Pregnant) Labour Prime Minister is committed to raise the minimum wage to $20 by April 2021. (Currently the minimum wage sits at $16.50). After eight years of business first, the richest 1% own 28% of the wealth in NZ
3
In fact, a higher percentage of young Australians hold bachelor degrees than do young Americans (45% versus 43%). 57% of Canadians under the age of 35 hold college degrees, far outstripping the rate in the United States. And Canada's tuition rates are a fraction of those in the United States.
https://www.russellsage.org/sites/default/files/Fig10_Comparative_hires_...
If The Upshot were honest, and not peddling conservative dogma, they would focus on college completion, and not this sideshow which is "repayment systems."
2
This idea that German students, in what we would call "academic" institutions of higher education, don't have to pay tuition is true but at great societal cost: only about 25% of German students are allowed into these institutions and those who are fortunate enough to be admitted are admitted based primarily on test scores on a national exam (think SAT only more difficult). Now imagine what would happen if we adopted this system!
13
If the US adopted the German system, we might actually produce college graduates who could read and write beyond the 8th-grade level. Our standards have become so low that a recent baccalaureate is the educational equivalent of a HS diploma 50 years ago.
37
Yes, that is what is so sobering about US degrees. All that money and in many cases, not producing graduates with the skills to take on professional jobs. It seems like the path is an expensive degree that is bolstered by the use of unpaid internships; it feels like a lot of the students would be at the same point at graduation if they just did the internships and skipped college. Most computer skills can be picked up through cheaper, shorter courses and work skills can be picked up in the work place. Colleges don't actually seem to be producing the critical analytical or soft skills necessary for career advancement.
It is not just university - Germany has a much more robust apprenticeship training program for those not so academically inclined, producing highly skilled, highly paid, highly respected and highly productive tradespeople. Our "choice" is tax cuts for the rich and throw the rest to the wolves; theirs is higher taxes, much of the proceeds to be spent on education & training.
31
The US military service academies charge no tuition fees. Indeed, they pay their cadets and midshipmen salaries to attend. However, they require their graduates to perform a minimum of four years of military service.
14
An underlying theme of the discussion and the readers' replies to it is the importance of setting priorities in expending tax dollars. Simply put: where should scarce tax dollars be spent to try to max the return on investment (ROI) to the nation of these expenditures? Complicating this process is the lack of a uniform gov. metric which is available to businesses in order to gauge their ROIs. In business, per Milton Friedman and other conservative economists, the point is simply to max the cash flow back into the the corporation so that it can increase shareholder wealth via cash dividends. Net present values and internal rates of return help solve this business riddle.
To grade the effectiveness and efficiency of past and future military academy expenditures, perhaps their ability and expertise in the STEM subjects could be partly gauged by their ability to garner Nobels in the Sciences, Medicine and Economics. If Berkeley garners more of these Nobels per federal dollar spent than the US Military Acad or the US Naval Acad, why not reallocate more of these federal funds to this more productive university. Perhaps not all of the academies and their surrounding environs have a populace with the IT and AI expertise needed to create the synergy for many of today's innovations such as genetic sequencing and climatology.
Have the academies flourished in Nobel competitions versus say, Silicon Valley schools? Have the Nobels followed the money?
5/11 F 10:25a Greenville NC
2
John Joseph-- using the Nobels to measure success, is really not the measurement that is used. For prestige, IQ Scores are used, Report Card Rankings, Department Rankings, # of Student Award Recipients.
1
The service academies should be the only recipients of tax dollars for higher education.
1