Now then, is it just me but I'm very lost with this whole story? Without being ignorant could someone explain a cis-gender lesbian? It was not even documented in this glossary by Stonewall (a leading UK charity on gay rights): https://www.stonewall.org.uk/help-advice/glossary-terms. Why not use more simple language to be more inclusive.
20
Identity is such a fluid concept, and it comes from both within and in response to your social environment. We are going through a time of great questioning in gender identity. Once we unhitch gender from genitals it presents all sorts of problems. As the writer points out, fertility is just one, and difficult to anticipate how it will factor into your life from the perspective of a teen, or younger.
I wonder if we left our bodies alone....or stayed with the natural expression of our DNA, and instead widened our concepts of what being male, and what being female can look and act like? Over the course of a lifetime, constantly injecting hormones, and dealing with such radical surgery as a transgender person does now, has got take its toll. I am especially worried about kids who are not even teens deciding to make these changes to their bodies. This writer is very honest about one aspect the changes in how the genders associate. I applaud her willingness to put it out there. I also wonder, would she still love her partner, and want to parent and spend her life with her, if she decided to go back to being male? As a lesbian, would that be a dealbreaker? I am a physician and had a couple in my practice where the husband transitioned. They stayed together and carried on as a couple, and yet the wife did not consider herself a lesbian. So many layers to consider.
12
Just a little scared that all this hormonal changes might either make you incapable of conceiving or have a fetus that isn’t viable. Hopefully all will go well.
1
Good luck with it all. If it doesn't work out, I can confirm that an adopted child will still be "a symbol of love who could walk around, crack jokes, do somersaults and go to college". You'll figure out what is right for you.
10
I have some advice that I hope does not get buried or lost. In parallel with trying in the time honored method, pursuing IVF may be worthwhile for you two. If you can simultaneously fertilize some eggs, you can give yourselves better odds at a future pregnancy if the first one does not go to term. The younger the eggs, the better your odds. This assumes, of course, that your partner's semen is good. At a minimum, you will want to consider saving and freezing some for future intra-uterine insemination so that Lara can resume transitioning as soon as she desires.
Nobody knows just how difficult it can be to conceive quite like those of us who failed, every single time. It was never "simply couple up, and boom." It was heartache and heartbreak and then another year's Mothers Day and Fathers Day to serve as reminders of what failed.
5
The whole idea that these two are suffering their "hormonal shifts" is kind of funny, because really, they are just experiencing life as a biological man and a biological woman, unmedicated. It's not so easy all the time, even for the "cis" people. I get the feeling people under a certain age, I'm not sure exactly the age, expect everything to be easy and custom-curated; those of us who are a little older are used to stuff being difficult and not always getting exactly what we want.
37
People go to great lengths to prove that they are different, as is their right. Once that difference is established and accepted they try to prove they are "just like everyone else."
This story is about a couple who want to have a baby together just like "almost everyone else."
For a people who are very conscious of labels, (for example we are admonished that it is "transgender" not "trans-sexual") they should stop trying to label the rest of society as "cisgender." Most of us don't like it.
53
The world needs more love stories. Thanks for this one.
4
I also do not understand the obsession with having a biological child in any couple, regardless of gender. The notion that an adopted child is not good enough is heartbreaking.
29
@Cynthia: I see that you mean well, so I will gently point out that what may seem like a "radical ideology" to you is perfectly natural to others. I personally think Roman Catholicism (and all other religious ideology) is a "radical ideology," and I feel sorry for anyone raised in a home where the adults believe in a supernatural being who rules over human life on earth -- but I believe in tolerance, so keep on praying to your non-existent deity, if it helps you.
I do wish your fellow Catholics, such as Greg Abbot, governor of Texas, were less interested in legislating their religious beliefs to force the rest of us to live the way they think we ought to, though. Good luck in keeping the rest of the religious tribes from running roughshod over our rights to live our lives free of religious intolerance.
10
This description of having children:
"a mixture of us two in human form, like two kinds of sand blended in a clear glass. A symbol of love who could walk around, crack jokes, do somersaults and go to college"
strikes me as incredibly naive. Bringing a human from an infant to a fully-functioning, well-balanced, tax-paying member of society is a tough job, even in the best of circumstances. I hope that this couple has also given some thought to the possibilities that they might have an infant who may not walk around, who may be autistic and not talk (let alone crack jokes), or one who may never want to go to college. Trust me, after raising five babies, I never think of them as "symbols of love". The biggest lesson of raising children is that it ain't about you.
"Your children are not your children.
They are the sons and daughters of Life’s longing for itself.
They come through you but not from you,
And though they are with you yet they belong not to you."
Gibran
29
I have absolutely no objection to two people wanting to conceive their own biological offspring. But being cisgender, I struggle with the concept of this piece.
Isn't Lara, gender identity aside, still anatomically a male for reproductive purposes?
If mechanically the parts work, I can't see how this story differs from any cisgender coupling.
If so, the issue here is just a choice. Let's be clear: gender identity is NOT a choice; I'm talking only about the reproductive ones presented. The choice I'm referring to is whether to extract Lara's sperm for artificial insemination vs. doing it the ”old-fashioned way." I have a relative who has been in reproductive medicine since practically its inception, so I am familiar with advances that greatly increase fertilization rates for men with sperm problems.
Seems to me that the issue is that this couple wants to conceive naturally. They're lucky and somewhat unusual in that their anatomy (still) theoretically permits them potentially to have that option. However, in the end that's no more than a preference...one that "straight" couples usually share. And, a lot of the time, straight couples have to move to a less-preferred option; maybe the author and her partner will have to, too. At least they have options!
So, if this is really a transgender issue (when there are so many genuine ones that the rest of us need to learn about), it would help to understand how it's any different from a cisgender one.
12
Hidden in the postmodern newspeak of this article is a fact that is often ignored in fawning transgender profiles: transition results in sterilization and, in prepubescent children, a lack of adult sexual sensitivity and response. As younger and younger patients are choosing this treatment long before they can understand the consequences it's worth it to question the medical ethics of doctors in this field. Pediatric endocrinologists seem to be supporting trans kids all the way to the bank.
75
So many judgmental comments here, and a fair bit of bad manners.
7
Reading this article amazes me of how far the transgender movement has evolved over the past 10 (5?) years. Not only am I ignorant of terms like "cis" and "ttc", but I haven't been able to ascertain whether Lara still has functioning male genitalia (since I've always assumed that those are always removed during the transition). Can someone please enlighten me without deriding my cluelessness?
10
Cisgender Cisgender Cisgender Cisgender Cisgender. lol. Oh it's so clunky. I'm not cisgender!
Lol, if there is a trans there is a cis. If I can deal with you people taking pictures of me, throwing food out of cars at me, and spitting on me in the street then you can deal with being cisgender.
7
The sexual permutations have become overwhelming. I'm trying to figure out Lara, who was born male, loves a woman, and wants to have a child with that woman. And yet Lara wished to transition to female. I wish the best of luck to Joanne and Lara, but I do find the situation puzzling.
18
Parenting is the hardest job there is. Bar none. I wish you the best. For it is not who bears the child, but how the child is raised that will matter. All that being said, all I could think about while reading this article was wondering if Mike Pence would gag on his Corn Flakes if he read it. He would probably try to wash his brain out with soap if he did.
3
Someone please clear me up here. The writer is married to a 'Transgendered Woman'. Which is in essence a man, yes? I mean no offense. I'm old. My dyslexia kicks in. Short hand - we're talking about a man and a woman having a baby, yes?
46
Yes, you are exactly right. I'm not that old, and couldn't find the story here either. Maybe that the hormones that help the man transition to being a woman have compromised his fertility?
16
@RE: Yes, it's clear that the transgender woman is not producing fertile sperm. Whether she's producing any sperm at all is not clear. It's apparent that estrogen shots are affecting her fertility in some way, but the article does not tell us exactly how. It would be nice if the Times would accompany this article with an informative piece on how exactly fertility is affected by hormone shots, so that readers could understand the science behind this.
16
Good for you for choosing as adults to transition, detransition, and have biological children.
When a 4-year-old child decides that she is trans, she is put on blockers before her natural puberty, so that she won't undergo puberty "in the wrong body." Then, cross-sex hormones are started. Since she never underwent puberty as her natal gender, she will permanently infertile, a course which she herself set in motion at age 4.
If a so-called "cisgender" 4-year-old decided that she wanted to be sterilized, no ethical doctor or parent would allow that, but a trans child is considered capable of making that decision at that age.
We are seeing the sterilization of an entire generation of queer kids, "for their own good."
The eugenecists of the 20's and 30's would be pleased.
48
I agree. As much as I support transgender rights and the subsequent right to transition for adults and perhaps even teens, I do worry about people allowing young children to enter the transition process. I think these children should be allowed to dress however they want to, answer to whatever pronouns, change their names, etc.; but I would be hesitant to have all these procedures and stuff done to a 4- or 5-year-old knowing just how much kids change their minds at that age about EVERYTHING-- not to mention, as you rightly noted, their limited capacity for understanding all of the consequences.
22
You need better information. This is simply not so. Pre-adolescent children are never put on blocking drugs or hormones -- there is no need or reason to do so. At the onset of adolescence, when puberty begins to change the body, say 11, 12, 13 or so, transgender children are routinely put on medications that block the hormones that produce secondary gender characteristics like beard growth or breasts. This does not produce any permanent effects. Puberty begins anew if the blockers are halted with fertility unaffected. This gives the child time for the maturity to make a more informed decision to start hormones, which do produce permanent effects. This can be as late as 18. But because puberty has been blocked, the child can develop in whatever gender it then knows it is -- either way. Again, what you are postulating, giving drugs to toddlers, simply never happens. Any transition they make is purely social. I can't imagine where this idea came from, other than really prejudiced sources. The most cursory google search would reveal this.
7
I am aware of when blockers are typically used, and when cross-sex hormones are typically used.
Blockers are used in pre-pubescent and pubescent children.
If a 4-year-old socially transitions before kindergarten and everyone knows her as a "he," she will be prescribed blockers somewhere around third or fourth grade, and she will begin cross-gender hormones in middle school when the other children start showing secondary sex features. If this child waited until 18 to begin cross-gender hormones, then she would be going through high school with the body of a pre-pubescent child.
Children who are still playing with dolls are being asked to make decisions about their bodies that they cannot comprehend, and their parents and doctors are encouraging them to choose sterility.
This isn't "prejudice," this is informed fact.
6
So many of these comments sound like they came from the 1920s or something. People always mock what they don't understand. What a brave author to reveal her experience when there is so much disgusting, unnecessary judgment around.
7
Why should I care and why are the media so obsessed with the problems of, at most, 0.3% of the population - self inflicted problems at that. My tolerence for tolerance is wearing thin.
55
“Man and woman attempt to have baby. Film at 11...”
When are we going to learn than we aren’t so special that the rules of science don’t apply to everyone...even the so-called “party of science!”
30
I’m pretty sure everyone who has a child does so because they’re selfish, myopic, and extremely naive.
5
Thank you Joanne, for reminding so many of us how simple our lives are, and how trivial our problems. I further wish to applaud you and your partner for your sharing of an intimate issue that not only probably plagues more people than we are aware of, but I am sure will invite negative attention in our current cultural climate of disregard for the "other" people who don't fit into convenient categories. I wish you luck (every child born is ultimately a matter of luck) and hope you will enjoy parenthood as I did...and now enjoy the grandchildren that fill the loneliness I had as an adopted child who wound up with abusive parents.
6
There are a lot of common sense comments here...for a very good reason. In an effort to give everyone endless rights and choices, we have created "issues" that have realities, consequences and inherent choices. Identity politics started off with good intentions but as evolved into expectations that border on the absurd.
Men and women, the vast majority of the population, are just that. They are only cisgender to those with a narrow perspective focused on their own circumstance. Evolutionary biology does not include the circumstance related in this opinion piece, and it's not going to. So all of the machinations necessary to end-run biological realities are neither an injustice nor a societal to be solved. They are what happens when fooling with mother nature.
It's little wonder that many have tried to be understanding but eventually tire of the whole overwrought gender mania passing for choices and rights. Identity politics has gone rogue. Transgender fertility is so not an issue for most people most of the time. There's no shortage of humans on the planet and there are consequences for gender choices. That's the reality of human adulthood.
Eclectic Pragmatism — http://eclectic-pragmatist.tumblr.com/
Eclectic Pragmatist — https://medium.com/eclectic-pragmatism
32
Such a beautiful love story. Wishing you and Lara much success in your efforts to have a baby.
8
Such hostility in the comments.. and the sadness that the hostile comments are voted up. I thought things had changed.
I look at young people who are much more fluid and accepting and realize that a few generations will have to die off.
9
Civil rights do not include the right to erase lesbians. They don't include the right to define woman as a thought in a man's head. There is nothing progressive about the trans agenda.
13
The trans, or gay community in general deserves much greater protection, and respect throughout society. And I love that the Times has taken on this topic, though the article itself wasn't particularly that engaging.
7
No, this is not complicated at all.
8
This article makes me want to ask all kinds of rhetorical questions about why people would want to complicate their life with transgenderism and then further entangle that decision by stepping out of it to seek the benefits of their inherent genetic gender. It also makes me wonder how children or adolescents could ever reassign to themselves an artificial gender (and take hormones through medically approved regimes to accomplish this decision) in a healthy manner, when adults cannot stick to the necessary related conformation of that decision.
33
That you would even say "complicate their life with transgenderism" shows how little you understand the issue, as if transgendered people wake up one morning and make a decision that they're going to live the gender that they are. You just keep wondering while other people live authentic lives.
10
1) Being trans isn't an ideology so its not an ism.
2) Because you have no understanding of what being trans is. We transition because our bodies need to be congruent with our minds. You simply can't imagine how difficult it is to have your body not match your innate sense of self. Transition actually uncomplicates things. Trans youth are often so terrified of going through the wrong puberty, relief is the only concern. Cisgender (non trans) folk just have zero concept of this.
3) Being trans isn't a disorder. Mental or otherwise. It's no more a disorder than left handedness or red hair. Gender ID is biological.
4) You conflate sex and gender. They are separate and distinct. Our gender isn't any more artificial than yours.
5) How is stopping hormones any different than stopping the pill or reversing a vasectomy to get pregnant? Why must you think we have to continue once we start regardless of the reason? No one says that about those reversing a vasectomy. 'Ya Glenn, why'd you reverse that vasectomy? You know you could get your gf/wife pregnant don't you. You should have stuck to your original decision. There must be something wrong with you.' This somehow isn't odd when you do this to trans people.
12
@Keelie Thank you! Well put.
2
Best of luck to you guys!
4
I find that the transgender community makes it a point to put their personal details of themselves out there, then gets upset when they get criticized for doing so, this happens time and again, especially in this paper.
Rarely do we see straight couples coming out with this sort of intimate story, some things are meant to stay between a couple, does everything we do in the privacy of our own lives need to be splattered on the front page of the paper?
To be honest, many of us are not particularly interested in the details/personal life of our fellow citizens, go about your lives and make it as happy as you can, we don't need the update.
46
There: You make a valid point and to some degree, I agree with you. However...for a person my age (80+) these new insights into this whole "sex issue" are educational and enlightening, making it easier to understand and be accepting. Lack of information, or mis-information, leads to ignorance and more discrimination.
Ms.Spataro's personal story has been enlightening to me.
2
Cis folk talk about fertility all the time. What are you talking about? Most people wrongly assume its a disorder. There is no way for us to be humanised without our stories being out there. The exact same thing cisgender folks do in 99.9996% of the media. Its only wrong when trans people do it. The criticism we receive is from people who operate from intolerance, ignorance, and bigotry. Not from medical evidence and peer reviewed studies. The media only has 1 narrative for us. We have a right to correct that narrative. We're no longer tolerating being erased because some bigot is uncomfortable. Many Americans don't like it when marginalised folks do that. You know. Want the same respect and consideration offered to cisgender, heterosexual, white christian folks. Who forced you to read it. Self censor yourself. Its not like the headline wasn't clear.
10
To be blunt about it, I'm not sure why anyone on this planet today "wants" children. There are oh so too many bipeds on this polluted rock as it is, and way many more being produced by the minute.
The political realities also give pause. Our president is, emotionally and functionally, a 3-year-old on a permanent tantrum, his "guardians" little more than aiders, abettors and enablers. The specter of fascism is spreading across America, Europe and is long established in much of Africa and Asia. Australia and South America are not immune.
Our ocean fisheries are depleted, some irreparably so, as long the human population continues to grow unchecked. Millions of acres of once-prime farmland lie beneath concrete roads and house foundations, and millions disappear every years. Famine, worldwide famine, spurred on by the above and by global warming lie within the lifetimes of but a tiny handful of generations.
I am well aware of the power of hormones. I am tempted to say, be patient. This, too, shall pass. The voice of years of experience. This couple has abandoned one relationship to try to create a second that, so far, does not sound terribly pleasant or promising and most certainly not romantic. Not, in my mind, one that is destined for the longevity of a lifetime.
Adopt. There are millions of children who would benefit greatly from the parenting of a loving couple of whatever form of pairing brought them together. The planet would thank you for it.
19
Glen,
Thank you for saying things too many people are afraid to say! The last thing our planet needs is more humans. Political, religious, "ethical", etc., arguments aside, if you think we aren't approaching a tipping point, then you aren't paying attention, are deluding yourself, or both. Further, people need to stop focusing on climate change as the problem - it's a symptom, and not even close to the only one. GMOs, toxins, habitat fragmentation, climate destabilization, and a dozen other serious threats are ADDITIVE issues, not isolated. And all of them have a single origin: too many of us trying to have a bigger slice of the pie. It's time we stop acting like procreation is a right (newsflash, it isn't) or something to be rewarded for (e.g., tax deductions). We need to be realistic about the path we've set ourselves on and take responsibility for it.
9
Thank you for your comment. I agree with you absolutely. I do not have children, never seriously considered children, and at the age of 62 have NO regrets that I did not have children. I have enjoyed a life filled with love and dogs. I think people like the Duggars are obscene. I read last night that the featured doctor at the South Carolina Medical Association has six children. In my opinion, he should be shunned. However, there is a part of me that wants this "non-traditional" couple to have the same rights as "traditional" couples do i.e. to have their own biological children. I hope they know what they're getting into though. There are no guarantees. Children either bring you great joy or they break your heart.
7
Sometimes, if not most times, Darlene, it is "and" not "or."
2
When I read the article, I wondered what was the urge to publish this? The author is a lesbian (probably a 3% group), and her partner is in - at best - a 0.2% group (and the existence of that particular partnership might mean each of them is actually in a smaller segment, but let's stop there). This is a 0.01% issue. And that's probably very generous. It is undoubtedly very personal, and important to the author. It is an extreme novelty to the rest of the world.
The comments, however, are interesting. They reflect a wide range of experience and perspective on this. There are comments from traditional heterosexuals saying "why are we here talking about this?" and there are comments from lesbians and other LGBT people with a wide range of views. The comments themselves were worth the article. In fact, I think I would rather read an article about the range of views in the comments, then the article itself. (Which is not to disparage the experience of the author, which is clearly personal heartfelt, but rather only to say that her experience is really only hers.)
26
As a cis woman currently ttc with my trans wife (who did freeze sperm before transition), I was very excited to read this article. But I wish the piece--which is clearly about a couple's personal journey--hadn't erased or downplayed the fact that many trans women do opt for fertility preservation. We do talk about our fertility treatments with our friends (I'm sure they're sick of hearing about it!), some of whom have also been planning for families someday; we know couples who have successfully started families this way; and 15+ years post-transition, "trying the old-fashioned way" isn't really an option for us. Basically, we have the same ttc options that cis lesbian couples have, but with an awkward conversation every time someone says "have you considered switching donors?" I've felt very isolated during this process, and am happy to see an article about it, but it shows the dangers of a single story. I hope that the NYT will continue to cover families like mine, and will show a much wider range of experiences.
12
Since we are being honest and “with malice to none, with charity for all”, I think it is prudent to anticipate that there will be health repercussions, such as cancer and cardiovascular disease, from these therapies. I do not think it is far fetched for us to consider that a in ten or twenty years we will look back and say these treatments, especially in minors, were barbaric.
42
Using your line of thinking, no medication should be used until some test group shows no ill "repercussions" after 20 years. That doesn't mean doctors shouldn't mention the possible future problems, however, people want to choose their lives today, not be in a straight jacket for another 20 years.
4
None of the drugs used were developed for trans people. Almost every single drug has been used on cisgender folks for decades. The first hormone therapy for trans people was used in the 1930s. Regarding your ignorant barbaric comment, we know the outcome of not treating trans people. It is barbaric when there are known treatments and studies that prove the efficacy of those treatments yet deny people a treatment known to help because of ignorance or cognitive dissonance. Every major medical organisation in North America disagrees with your opinion. I'll trust those who use evidence based medicine thank you. Those children will be alive and functioning like their peers because of those treatments. How barbaric. Educate yourself.
5
It sounds as if the decision to have kids was much more complex for Lara, the author’s transgender partner, than it was for the author herself. And yet this article is not written from Lara’s point of view, and Lara doesn’t even get quoted!
As a trans person, it strikes me that many high-profile stories of gender transition in relationships get written by the cisgender partner of the person undergoing these changes. (Maggie Nelson’s The Argonauts is an obvious example.) While it’s great to see thoughtful and affirming journalism about us, it would be even better if we got to speak for ourselves. After all, this is not the sort of perspective that anyone can understand unless they’ve gone through it.
7
I haven't seen anyone make the point that young folks are making decisions to alter their bodies in ways that have life-long consequences. Few of us care about being parents when we are in our teens and young 20s. Are young trans people getting the information and support they need to make the best decisions for themselves?
32
Many feminists have been making this point for years. They are currently being driven out of feminist and leftist spaces for their thought crimes.
17
Yes. Very clearly. All options are discussed as well as in depth clarifications of consequences and side effects. Lots of trans kids won't make it past puberty if they don't transition in some way. Fertility or life. What would you pick?
1
Why has the social justice movement stopped helping the poor? In the 1960's at the highpoint of the civil rights era, the emphasis was on people of color who were disproportionately poor. Not anymore, the emphasis is now perceived aggrievances by the middle class. The shift towards "T" does nothing to help people of color (who are shot by the police like its 1865) and disabled people (who are almost uniformly poor). I question the judgment of people proclaiming this to be the new social justice movement while the poor are ignored.
32
I don’t think trans people see this as “the” social justice movement. It’s just one group of people whose rights are continually being infringed upon by our government— and of course, there are many other such groups. Ideally, it would be possible to institute programs and offer funding to support multiple underserved groups.
It is worth saying, though, that many trans people (especially trans people of color) are poor, and/or homeless, and/or unemployed or employed in the underground economy (e.g., sex work). This group is an intersectional one, and a lot of the social safety net you mention could be working better for us as well as for others.
14
I wish these folks the best. Yep, I'm a traditional conservative, which means I value freedom -- liberty -- above nearly anything else in my secular life. I'm glad I live in a country where all adults are permitted to marry, to find their own true path, to consciously choose to bring a child into the world and raise him or her.
Oh, sure, I worry about children!!! I worry about children who are brought up in their parents' radical ideology -- no matter what it is. I've recently read a few articles about parents bring their kids up with no concept of gender, and insisting that everyone around them participate. I worry about parents letting their kids "transition" with hormones before the children are old enough to know what it really means, and before they have a chance to see what life would be like in the adult world in their biological gender. It seems to me to be a part of the same trend in intensive, ideological parenting that brought us the anti-vaccine movement -- at least the crazy fringe of it. Isn't being a parent hard enough already?
Yep, it's coming too fast and intensely for me. But it is very hard for me as someone who is committed to liberty to stand in the way of anyone's desire and belief about their true life and path. As a devout Roman Catholic, I pray for these people -- that it truly is their own true path, that they raise their children compassionately and in love, that they teach them traditional values of work, honesty, etc.
28
With astonishingly few exceptions, people are born definitively male or female, with sexual preferences and identities that are rather commonly fluid. In use of language there has recently been much muddling of the difference between biological gender and psychological orientation.
Please, let's let the words "man" and "woman" refer simply to the default conditions where gender and sexual identity match. The word cisgender is simply awful and I should have the right to refuse that identity every bit as much as a transgender wishes to embrace their's.
As for transgender fertility and other issues. Good luck. I wish you well.
55
I hope this couple comceives and has the baby they so desire. The many commenters here who are so uncomfortable with the descriptions of fertility and hormonal issues the couple faces should try to understand the world is changing and fast. By showing us what it is like for trans people to have children the author gives us a glimpse of the challenges they face and the remarkable ability of the human body to transition back and forth...it's really something! They clearly approach the process with humor and determination.
What shines through to me in this article is the love and joy and hope they feel, they are creating their family from a good place in their hearts, hopefully their bodies will follow and they can indeed combine genes to create their symbol of their love. Love is love and that is what matters most. Best of luck to them.
10
Wow, so many comments instructing this brave person to keep their personal details to themselves. How many articles have been in these pages delving into way more intimate details about cisgender fertility struggles, not to mention sexual escapades? Did you comment on those, too?
The whole point of the article is that there is a silence around the desire for children within the transgender community. I bet this article helped some young people think a bit about planning for a future in which their feelings about children may change, and I bet it helped some others feel less alone in their struggles.
As a cisgender woman who struggled with fertility, I wish this couple best of luck on their journey.
16
Well said Amy! Bravo!
(From a former Ann Arborite)
2
I'm a straight cisgender woman who experienced infertility and adopted a child with my straight cisgender husband. Having experienced infertility, I'm aware of the great sympathy extended to other straight cisgender women who may go to great lengths to get pregnant and deliver a baby--sympathy I have seen in many previous NYT comments. I personally chose not to have fertility treatment, and it is hard for me to relate to the passion for having a biological child, but I think it's wrong for women who fit the traditional mold to get buckets of sympathy when undergoing extensive fertility treatment, while women like Joanne Spataro are self-righteously condemned by readers. I hope she and her partner are able to have a child as they wish.
14
I FOUND THE WRITER to be sympathetic. But the impression I get from my friends and acquaintances who struggle with hormonal imbalances, they're notoriously difficult to balance. If not impossible. Achieving the right balance of hormones is not always possible for any couple. Unfortunately, it may be the case that taking hormones may have lessened or, in the worst case, eliminated the possibility of having a baby from the two partners in a marriage or other relationship. Reversing the transition from whatever to whatever (I don't know the politically correct term), may not be possible. Sometimes even less delicate reversals are not possible. Look at the late Michael Jackson. I think that it was Joan Rivers who quipped that he started out looking like a nice black boy and ended up looking like her. (I do hope she didn't recommend HER plastic surgeon to HIM). We'll never know!
3
At 73-years of age I am simply too old for this story to have any relevance to me.
Also, from a purely aesthetic stand point, I wish people would keep their personal stuff to themselves. The world was a much more enjoyable place to live when we did not know every detail of a person's inner most thoughts and desires - not to mention body/image/identity issues.
58
I’ve been asking myself why I’ve never had the slightest objection to a small percentage of the population calling the rest of us 'straight' - in fact I use that term for myself - but I, and many others, balk at 'cisgender'.
I've concluded that it’s because I am not convinced transexuality is anything other than gender dysmorphia. It is not a different focus of your love life, it is a dysfunctional focus on youself. Thus, to me, LBG is qualitatively different from T.
So don't call me 'cisgender' because that is not what I call myself. You only get to decide your own label.
Apart from that, I wish everyone well, have no animus against those who identify as transgender, and if the protagonists here become happy and loving parents in the way nature provided, more power to them.
130
Well you are kinda showing a transphobic animus by saying you don't believe in transsexuality... As for the use of the word cis, do you identify as something else? While being gender and not sexuality, it is otherwise the same as 'straight,' and if you identify with the gender you were assigned at birth, you are cis. Regarding labels, yeah it would be great if society didn't assign them. But the only way to form a movement in the society we live in is to give it a name, and say 'we exist,' in our case 'we, transgender people, exist.' linguistically, trans just means not cis. Considering how you don't seem to believe in the existence of transgenderism, I find it hard to believe you are trans, so unless you are something under that umbrella like agender or genderfluid or something like that, I would feel comfortable as a trans person to call you cisgender because that is just a word that describes you, like straight; it's not derogatory, and frankly is very showing of cis privilege. You're simply spreading transphobia on the web, and that's really not what the world needs.
8
There is an old trope about not understanding another person's life...have you walked in their shoes? I would hope that you and others who seem so focused on the "cisgender" or other perspectives of the author would be more attuned to the real issue here...one that is a challenge for many couples, regardless of their gender or the words used to identify us.
5
I’m a 65 year old gay man. When I see how well my straight friends’ children turned out, I'm sorry I was never able to have any. But life isn’t perfect and sometimes you can’t have it all. I hope you can be happy with what you do have. When I was you age, I had no anti-discrimination protection and gay marriage wasn’t even talked about.
28
You hit the nail on the head. The fact that "you can't have it all" is true for all of us.
5
I'm 6 years older and my life mirrors yours I would have liked kids but it wasn't an option then so I hope like heck these two fulfill their wish .
4
I believe the only thing that ticked me off is being labeled a cis. Why is that am not sure. Maybe because i don't like labels being thrown at me.
Anyhow the best to these two people. I do worry some what about the child they will have. Pick the right place....a progressive place to raise the child.
28
I'm not even sure what a "cisgender" is, to be honest.
7
I am sorry,but this just too out there for me and I
suspect a good many of your readers. I don't know why we have to know the details of estrogen and standing in front of mirrors pulling one's hair out from various parts of the body.these should be kept private and not printed on the op ed pages of the ny times.I flatter myself that I am a fairly tolerant person,
but these are doctor office conversations,not
the stuff of op ed articles.if you want to print
articles about discrimination that is fine,but
leave the clinical details to the couple and
their medical professionals.
77
Just because you don't personally connect with a story doesn't mean it shouldn't be printed.
I can guarantee that there are trans folks out there who read this story and found comfort and connection. I'm not trans, but I connected with some details about the couple's fertility journey.
It's human nature to want to tell your own story. We do this in order to survive, thrive, and remember that we are not alone. There's no need to censor others on their journey.
13
The truth about life is that we should all think carefully, be educated and do enough research before we take life changing decisions.....it looks like people sometimes want different things at different stages of their life with unfortunate consequences and regrets....God bless us all
2
Hey, Frank...You don't have to read columns that you aren't interested in or that are outside your "appropriate" designation. Remember that the NYT, as well as other media have millions of other people who have different lives, different problems, and can benefit from the details you find so horrific.
5
The baby you hopefully will bring into this world will have two parents who want it and we're willing to sacrifice to get it. Sounds like a recipe for success!
20
I don't think many teens or twenties folk know for sure about kids, I know for me it was a wishy washy maybe maybe not until 30 when my biological clock started screaming that I didn't have forever to decide. This is an amazing article because that decade is tough enough for a hetero cisgender person....can't begin to imagine for all the other folk that need to make those decisions. thanks for putting this in writing and very very best of luck to you two
7
Parenting is a grand adventure, and I wish you all the best as you seek to become a parent. Thank you for sharing your perspective. As a teacher, I know there are young people who should consider the key points you made.
9
Telling someone "I want to blend genes with you" sounds strangely romantic.
Thank you for this article, Ms. Spataro, and best of luck to you and Lara.
9
Tab A, Slot B. It's worked for a long, long, time no matter what we call it today. You can change the language, and even the hormones, but life still wants two distinct chromosomes from two different and distinct biological sexes to come together to make a human being, no matter what trans-, cis-, or other prefix we attach to it. It seems like Joanne and Nancy are a likable couple, and parenting is wonderful in so many ways, but having a baby means a lot more than adjusting ones hormones and putting one's cis identity on the front burner and one's trans identity on the back burner for a while. The author's self indulgence, to me, seems really myopic and selfish, and extremely naive. I hope this narcissism we've all bought into runs its course before we pass it onto the next generation.
108
How, exactly, is wanting to have their own biological child while also affirming their gender identity any different from any other couple who want children?
13
What Erin said - and also, they're not shifting identities, just going through a treatment to allow them to achieve what they want, as a lesbian couple between a trans woman and a cis woman. Self indulgence? It's 2018, the world is a different (and better) place. There are trans people, and trans women are real women and trans men are real men. If a trans woman and a cis woman want to have a child, they can do it however they please; adoption, surrogacy, IVF, or what's described in the article, and if they want to share that, good for them! It's empowering to see trans people talked about on the same level as cis people in the media! I think your negative opinion does not add anything to the conversation.
15
There's nothing narcissistic about wanting to 1) have a child and 2) stay true to your gender identity. Most adults want both of these things. It's just more challenging for some people.
If you find them to be a likable couple, and believe that parenting is wonderful, why wouldn't you want them to experience that? Why is it selfish of them to want what so many others already have?
4
This is truly the best time in the history of humankind to be a physician. Imagine the funds flowing to the hormone and fertility docs. The psychotherapists may also be able to cash in. Nobody got paid prior to the conception of the person who become the 300,000-year-old Homo sapiens fossil recently discovered in Morocco. And there was little profit opportunity in conception per se for the next 299,900+ years.
This article is timely. My health insurance company called me this evening to ask how I like paying them $9,000 per year for the Obamacare-compliant policy. Their first question was "Are you male or female?" Apparently they can't keep track if they've paid for 0,1,2,3, or 4 gender transitions for any given policyholder.
56
Truly shocked at the discomfort, squeamishness, and resentment expressed here for a woman's brave and honest expression of her and her partner's desire for a child. Gender non-conformity has been a part of the human experience throughout our history and it is here to stay, whether or not it makes you comfortable. Usually I just read the Reader Picks on an article and someone has already expressed my opinion better than I could. Today, I was sadly disappointed.
75
I was not disappointed, Antonia, because you just did just that. Thanks
5
Thank you Antonia, you expressed what I feel better than I could! People have so much hate and negativity, I think it is simply an internally subconscious transphobia that people cannot restrain. If this were about a cis lesbian couple, I think it would get a lot less flack. *sigh*
6
I love the skillful and amusing writing this author offers us, and I’m so delighted to see an article in The New York Times about the varieties of gender that people are coming out about more and more. When I made my documentary, “A Womb of Their Own,” I wanted to let people know that whatever assumptions they didn’t even know they had about gender needed to be called into question. I tried to shock people out of their comfort zone with visuals of pregnant people with beards; people who looked like men and identified as transmen or genderqueer; people who looked like women and identified as gay and trans, and as much variety in gender identity and expression as possible. I think the film has made a dent, along with supporting people in being who they know themselves to be—breaking gender rules no one had any business making. Babies need to be made by people who love and care for them and gender has nothing to do with it. I have such gratitude for this author who had the courage to share her personal story to inspire and educate our evolving understanding of gender!
14
My first thought was, What a lot of stress and even risk for Joanne's and Lara's bodies and psyches. Then I realized that that was just the nurse in me speaking. After years of hospital nursing, my concerns tend toward medical consequences.
But equally important is the health of our minds and of our relationships. My husband and I have been married for 50 years, and we can not imagine life without our two lovely daughters. And now that this wonderful man has advanced Parkinson's, I am forever grateful that he will live on through our girls. So what I am trying to say is that it is indeed worth the temporary discomfort and angst. Hang in there, and good luck!
23
Good for you, ladies, and go for it! As a mother of two kids conceived old - fashioned way, my advice to prospective parents is: don’t have kids, they are not necessarily for a happy and fulfilled life, and they cost a lot of money. But if you do, make them with your own genes and don’t adopt. It is not the same. Reproductive technology is great and may eventually allow us to modify and select what genes we want to pass on to our offspring. Meanwhile, I hope you succeed and don’t pay attention to the haters who cannot wrap their ossified minds around the fact that the world is different today than when their mothers unwillingly gave birth to them.
5
"We bonded over a mutual enthusiasm for chocolate pecan pie. Over lukewarm pimento cheese at a diner, she showed me a picture of herself from a year beforehand, before she’d begun transitioning. We shared a lingering first kiss in the parking lot, and on the drive home, while the Bee Gees’ “How Deep Is Your Love” played on the radio, I had a realization: If things worked out, I could have a biological child with the woman I love, as long as I had eggs and she had the other half of the ingredients. And she did — sort of. But it hasn’t been straightforward."
I note the author is a humorist. Quite seriously, this sounds like the opening lines to a Woody Allen spoof.
29
The very best of luck to you.
16
Another PS to my previous comments:
People sure are being judgmental!
These are two people who love each other, trying to have a baby!
14
Well, it is spring time and I guess love is in the air !!!
6
Of all the medical challenges people face, should transgender fertility even be on our radar? Aren't there many other medical problems to deal with? Must the fulfillment that parenthood brings (maybe) need to come from biological reproduction?
41
All children should be born of this much love and determination
24
I am sitting here in my upper middle class condo, on lockdown waiting for the police and a SWAT team to finish taking down a pair who were firing guns one neighborhood away. A drug deal went awry. Any relationship where one can establish a little love is okay by me.
27
I'm a lesbian, and I can't have the option of taking off hormones and having biological children with the woman I love. Two females cannot do it, unlike a female with male using female pronoun, while maintaining male organ and the reproductive benefits that can with it...
I wish these people to realize their dream, but trying to portrait this as lesbian couple experience, it's ridiculous and offensive.
Two opposite sex people performing a reproductive act, such a novelty!
170
I am a gay man and I agree 100%. We do have this option. This couple cannot call themselves a gay or lesbian couple. We are not able to reproduce with our partners, that is just fact. We do not need to be reminded of this. Reasons why I hate the phrase LGBT.
29
Well said.
11
...it's not offensive. It's biology. Get real. Be what you are. If you are lesbian, that's fine but understand that two girls can't make their own baby. ...it's not sad. It's science.
7
The Author is 100 % correct!
Dare I request an update in a year or two?
6
Thank you, NYT. I just returned home from teaching a class on the Bhaghavad Gita and the benefits of non-attachment. Feeling all balanced and evolved. Then I read this column and fell back into a swirl of emotional and judgemental responses. So thank you, for showing me how much more I need to let go of moral judgements. And I mean it!
9
Fertility should definitely be discussed with trans people before transitioning, and I'm glad the author reminded me of that. Saving sperm or eggs is clearly superior to starting and stopping hormone therapies, of which, from a wholly pragmatic perspective, we simply don't know the long term effects (though hormone therapy itself, we know, carries risks of cancer, blot clots, stroke, etc.). People make choices, and when well informed, I respect any choice made. My concern here is the unknown effects on the child that the estrogen already taken by the author's fiancee will have. That unknown risk scares me. I personally wouldn't take it, and I hope all works out.
12
I don't understand why transgender has to mean that you must pick male or female and even modify your bodies to look more like the "opposite sex".
It seems like a push to conform to one stereotype or another while millions, maybe most people, feel somewhere in-between the range of what's supposed to be male and female.
Men seem particularly restricted by our culture as far as displaying female characteristics (and I understand why). But why don't we see more of a push, especially from young people, to allow more varied and flexible versions of what it's like to be female and male? It seems so unnecessarily binary considering our modern society.
60
It's not a stereotype. People are either male or female. If one prefers to dress or behave in a particular male/female ...whatever manner then that's fine. But we are all biologically defined by our DNA.
35
People do push for varied and flexible versions of the two options we've been given. (A good place to start might be to look up the phrases "gender fluidity" and "genderqueer.") But outside of that, there needs to also be acknowledgement that those two choices are not the only ones. This is visible not even just within mainstream US culture, in which people who reject the gender binary are still viewed with suspicion, but in many other cultures in which at least a third, sometimes even more, options have been the norm for ages. For instance, it is possible to be "agender"-- to simply not identify with any gender one has ever heard of, and have no desire to try to find one and make it "fit." Then certain Native Americans, and I believe also in Thailand (though I might be mistaken about the latter), have more than two options (one example: look up "two-spirit").
9
@EJ McCarthy Greenfield, MA
" If one prefers to dress or behave in a particular male/female ...whatever manner then that's fine."
How can you make that statement following your claim that "It's [male or female] not a stereotype"?
Like others in this discussion, you confuse gender roles (they are social constructs, and learned, or forced!) and sex, which is biological.
Of course our gender roles are stereotypes -- and if females seem more conscious of that fact, it is because male gender roles and behavior mostly signal dominance and superiority, and men have been unwilling to surrender those roles. Why else would it be that only in the modern era have women managed to fight their way into positions which were recently open only to males?
And why is it that women in modern societies now wear men's clothes (trousers, jackets, work boots and etc. needed for safety or comfort in certain jobs) but men are mostly objects of humor if they don female clothing?
Why is a female often criticized if she assumes a dominant tone or acts aggressively in a work situation where the same behavior would seem normal, or even praiseworthy in a male?
There is so much more to this, and not enough space here.
The subject of intersex, transgender, or gender fluid individuals can never be rationally approached until people shed their stereotypical thinking about the rigidity of binary sex divisions and their failure to understand that gender is not biologically, but socially constructed
2
As a mother with 5 children, none of whom I gave birth to and of which 2 are biologically mine, I'm beyond supportive of anyone who works tirelessly to make a family. I went through 7+ miscarriages and 21 rounds of IVF to get the family I wanted. There is no shame in doing everything you can, spending everything you have to make your dreams come true - and no shame in wanting your own biological child. I love my 3 kids who don't share my genes just as I love the 2 that do, no more or less, but that doesn't mean that they are interchangeable. Adoption and biological children are apples and oranges. Sure, they are both tasty fruits, but they aren't the same. As someone who went through my share of hormone shots, crushing failures, doubting doctors, and moralizing strangers, I swear that once you have a your child, the journey you took to get that baby is totally eclipsed by the amazing journey you begin.
25
I am the oldest of six, and two of us are adopted. I love all my siblings, but I also know that my adopted sister and brother have had more difficult lives than my parents hoped they would enjoy -- better than not being adopted, but still hard. Being of different races is part of this; but I think adoption in general is less easy than most people think, for everyone involved. Let's not assume that people who struggle to have bio-babies are always being selfish! After all, anyone who would pause a gender transition for such a thing is giving up a great deal.
29
This is a timely article for me. Just a few days ago I brought my trans son (female to male) to his first consultation with an endocrinologist. The nurse who did the intake appointment was very clear that once you transition you may never recover your fertility, which my son said he understood. At 21 he believes he will never want to bear a child.
As his mom, I support his right to be whatever kind of person he wants to be. Better to be have a happy son than a miserable daughter. But still a part of me worries that he will someday change his mind...
I guess if that day comes, though, there's always adoption, and giving a child in need a good home.
There are many paths in life. May yours be filled with happiness.
55
I grieve your loss.
3
Can he freeze his eggs before transitioning?
3
Wow, reading some of these posts, I am embarrassed.
I am a true conservative, somewhat right of center on many issues. I want a strong defense and minimal interference with business, other than protecting our environment and civil rights.
But a true "conservative" not only values the privacy and gender/family choices of every person, but also understands the importance of family, parenting and the role of the state in supporting the growth of children in homes that want and love them.
You have this poster's gratitude and encouragement. Your evident passion and love will serve your children well. If only all Americans could be raised in such homes!
47
"It’s unrealistic to expect trans teenagers or even young trans adults to know whether they want to have their own children." My children are adopted. Are they not "my own"? I can't believe we're still accepting this language, especially now, when there's such a passioante call for sensitivity. Please educate yourself, especially before becoming a parent.
49
Thank you for this evidently much-needed reminder. They are all 'our own.'
14
Does one really need to have biological offspring to feel whole and fulfilled as a couple? Many heterosexual couples can't have a child. I'm all for the freedom to be who and what you want to be. But this angst about having a child when one (or both) love partners is trans, and to think it's worse than the sadness that a hetero person or couple feels, seems plain self-indulgent and pretentious.
Adopt. Would an 'adopted' child be such a non-fulfilling option? I'm beginning to lose my patience with those who feel they must have all the options available, even though they have in a way opted out of certain possibilities.
57
Are you going to pay for their adoption fees? Help them through disappointments if it doesn't work out?
Making babies the old fashioned way is often easier and cheaper.
10
Shelly, babies adopted or fostered through the state do not require fees. That is private adoption. There are many teenagers looking for a home.
1
This is 'the old-fashioned way?'
Im a transgender woman who is married to another transgender woman. We both decided to not reproduce biologically.
Our goal is to adopt a child in need. Our genetics are horrible. If we had a kid they would most likely be trans since both of us are. We also were both once addicts. I just cant continence bringing another transgender person into the world consciously, especially one prone to addiction. Life is so hard for transgender people. I couldn't watch my child suffer through all the crap that comes with being transgender.
I wish yall the best of luck. Having a kid is a great thing. I just think people should look into adoption more, especially when they have genetics that will lead to lives of hardship for their kids.
26
wait, so if you are both transgender women that means that you were born male? how could you reproduce as a couple, even if you wanted to?
24
They could take sperm from one (or mix it from both partners, as Elton John and his husband did) and use a surrogate mother. Yes, the child would be biologically related to only one, but that's true of male/female couples who use this method, as well.
Oddly enough you are among the most sane of all the respondents to this article by recognizing that being Trans is kinda crazy and best left to semi rational adults. Let's not subject innocent children to experimental social situations.
5
I have always been convinced that any couple, gay, straight, or transgender who will go to such lengths and expense to produce a biological child are among the most selfish people on earth. I think they are all ego maniacs, and I seriously doubt their real reasons for wanting children. I think they want mini versions of themselves wandering around, rather than providing a child with a loving mom or dad or both. "...a mixture of us two in human form..." Give me a break.
If you want a child so badly, ADOPT.
57
I'm an adoptee. I wanted a biological child if possible, and it was nice to finally be able to meet a biological relative, even if it was one who came from my uterus.
You act like adoption is easy. It's not, especially these days.
53
No, it isn't easy. But should it be thought of as a less desirable avenue to parenting and family?
1
For some people, yes, it might be less desirable. In fact, though I am a happy mom of 2 beautiful and amazing adopted kids, if I could have had biological children I would not have adopted.
The process of adoption is significantly challenging. Then, if you are successful, parenting adopted kids comes with its own challenges. Parenting in general is hard, but when your kid starts out with a tragedy in their background (and loss of one’s first family is always a tragedy, though some grieve it more than others), it gets really hard fast.
There’s absolutely no shame for people who decide it’s not for them. How about letting those who feel they’d be good adoptive parents go for it, and letting those that don’t do their thing without judgment?
3
I hope that I open the NYT in a year or two and hear about the birth of your child (or children). Any kiddo whose parents are willing to go to such great lengths to bring her into this world is a lucky kiddo, indeed.
16
How trite. As if efforts to conceive make one a good parent. I suspect you are not a parent.
5
Fertility issues, and I'm d ignorant, where angels fear treading.
But here goes some gross stupidity: apparently there originally had been a biological male and female.
If not, then impossible tho ambitious.
14
I like this story because the author told an interesting story that I would not have thought of or known about, and because she didn't politicize it!
15
Ok, I'm totally confused reading this trying to figure out who was or was what gender when they started and when they ended. It sounds like there was a male that became a female but kept the male equipment and got involved in a lesbian relationship. These are very complicated relationships and issues I have no idea how to relate to nor give them advice on. I would only say it sounds like a lot of effort for something that is so simple.
74
My original (positive) comment was published a couple of hours ago so I won't repeat it here.
I do feel the need to add that I am shocked by the lack of empathy displayed by so many of the comments here.
(I am of course happy to see the many positive, encouraging, caring comments though.)
31
Judgemental much, people?
Good luck on your quest for a biological baby. Ignore the naysayers who are agog with wondering how you'll tell the kid about his/her conception.
Believe me, no child wants to hear that story.
35
But unlike all young people, young trans people are often making choices that have long-term consequences for their fertility.”
I understand that this is how the writer feels. It’s just a very hostile suggestion, erasing the experience of non-trans individuals who because of chronic illness and/or disability have to struggle through treatment for infertility, treatment that may very seriously complicate their health in the short term and place a heavy cloud over future wishes for a second pregnancy.
The transgender community has fought hard against the kind of erasure that this writer has shown towards those with disability. Years and years of conversation with transgender persons has emphasised to me that exclusionary language like this (and the confusing “boom — a child is born” comment) is harmful. Why is it that when the people being excluded don’t have the requisite cultural currency, no one’s bothered, or more likely for the writer and her editor, no one notices?
20
I think her main point in saying that was not that all young people are able to have choices when it comes to children, I think she was more just talking about how trans young people specifically often have to make decisions about hormones that affect their fertility later on. I 100% see where you are coming from, and I hear you, I just wouldn't think that she wrote it the way you think she did.
2
Who is footing the bill for this rather expensive adventure and experiment in life and reproduction? Some governmental insurer (all of us citizens)? A private insurer (all the members of the insurance pool)? Paying out of pocket?
47
Are you asking if the government is paying them to have sex?
13
Morris,
I think you might be confused. The author is a (chromosomal) woman, and her partner, who was born male, hasn’t had surgery—just hormone therapy (estrogen). In other words, the author hopes to get pregnant via plain old sexual intercourse, no expensive adventure or medical experiment necessary.
65
But, the father has been inundating her body with estrogen. I wouldn’t trust those sperm to be healthy. I know of a similar couple. In that case, the brother of the father donated sperm, mom was artificially inseminated and everything turned out fine biologically speaking.
Our bodies are mysterious and complicated to the point of being magical, and only minimally controlled by our minds. There is a lot of risk when we begin to use science to change our bodies: they don't tend to react well in the long run. So, I can understand why a person might want to transition to the opposite gender, and use science to do so. And I can well understand why love with a member of that gender might ensue. But isn't then trying to temporarily shift back just asking too much of your poor bodies? One of my favorite sayings is, "The perfect is the enemy of the good." In this case, why not use a donor or adopt, and save all that physical resiliency for when you'll really need it: 3 AM feedings! All that being said, I wish you the best of luck (and health) in this fraught endeavor!
10
Regular relationships are complicated. This is WAAAAYYY complicated. Good luck!
12
Regardless of gender or sexual identity, people procreate entirely for themselves.
We know there are more than enough humans & that procreation & pregnancies are an insoluble scourge.
No preconceived infant is asking to be born.
If god is mandating we multiply, he'd have to say so more convincingly than a single line in an antiquarian text that's daily disproved.
People who actually try through science to conceive against the blessing that they are thankfully not live-bearers, are pursuing a profoundly selfish act.
There are 7.6 Billion of us on this planet, each & every one of them a complicated mind with a whole lot of unsustainable needs & wants.
Prospective parents, give yourselves & the rest of life on earth a rest with the babies.
Yeah they're adorable & miraculous, but we're already smothered in them.
This is an unbalance that can't possibly go well.
39
What are the possible side effects of the estrogen therapy on the child to be?
30
Lawrence,
The author isn’t on hormone therapy. Her partner is but is temporarily discontinuing it to increase sperm count (I’m assuming). I don’t think the sperm is otherwise affected.
6
You are correct there Mr. G. Sperm count is reduced but the sperm are the same; there are just less of them!
Good grief. Nature did not design two females nor two males to produce children. If you choose to have sex with same-sex, you cannot reproduce. If you want to care for a child, adopt one who needs a parent, or work in a childcare center, or being a wonderful loving aunt or uncle. You can't have everything in this life. Some hetero couples are infertile and have to accept it be's this way. Be whatever you are designed to be or choose to be, and stop whining about what you are not.
154
In this case, one member of the relationship has male anatomy and another has female anatomy.
27
Just to be clear, Anne, this is exclusively a transgender issue. Gays and lesbians are fully aware of the reproductive implications of homosexuality.
24
"If you choose to have sex with same-sex, you cannot reproduce." Tell that to all the lesbian couples who have had children via artificial insemination. Lesbians have children all the time--even those who've never had sexual relations with a male in their lives.
14
Why put yourselves through all of this rather than trying IUI?
4
IUI, while not as expensive as IVF, still costs money. The way they plan on starting their family--costs less money than fertility treatments.
Joanne, I wish you and your fiancee nothing but the best in this ridiculous adventure we call life. I truly hope you are able to conceive a child together - I can think of nothing better for a child than to be raised by two thoughtful, loving people well attuned to the myriad complexities of our modern world. And if, perchance, it is simply too complicated to achieve biologically, please consider adoption. There are many wonderful children out there who could benefit from the warm home you both could provide by giving them a chance.
92
My adopted transgender sun would make me very happy woman if he decided that he wanted to present me with a grandchild. But it is not my decision, just his and a partner who cares about him and can see themselves as Responsible and loving parents.
5
In complete sincierity, how does one mentally reconcile the biological sex of a man, who identifies as a female, who will reproduce like a male?
138
I guess I need to say that I don't need to reconcile that, and I wonder why you do?
18
Attaway, Kathleen. :)
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy." (Hamlet)
12
"The way fertile cisgender people do: They simply couple up, and boom — a child is born."
No, that's not how it works. It is actually an arduous process and takes a long time. Once a female hits her 30's the chances of having a child drops significantly.
48
No it doesn't--the vast majority of women are fertile in their early thirties, and while fertility declines in the late thirties, the majority can still have babies then.
16
" It is actually an arduous process"
This would be a good chapter title for a high-school sex ed book. And the Preface can be titled "The somewhat arduous process of consuming alcohol."
6
These comments show so clearly that it is very hard if not impossible for so many human beings to understand that there are infinitely different people in the world. God, if you believe in one, had an amazing imagination. Sad that it is so hard for so many to show kindness, respect, compassion, curiosity, or empathy to someone different. As different as we all are, we all generally want to be treated with kindness and respect.
40
This is the best comment ever.
4
"God" has nothing to do with it. It's simple biology; some people's endocrine systems and /or brain chemistry different than that of the majority of people
5
In my youth (I'm 55) I never thought that in my lifetime the USA would elect an African-American President, nor did I even begin to dream our culture would ever, EVER, allow our precious and vital trans citizens to live openly and freely as they truly wish. My goodness, how far we've evolved socially! And yet how far we have to go.
Joanne, thank you for taking the role of faithful witness to these new and brave expressions of the true rights citizens have to live happily and freely as their conscience desires. Obviously with these freedoms come a whole host of new and different obstacles and choices, and I want to learn and understand them all. Enlightenment is a truly exciting state of being. As can be seen in so many comments below, and as I stated above, we have far to go as evolving, enlightened beings.
31
Rest assured I say this to EVERYONE having their own children: don't. There are two fundamental problems we face as a society. Catastrophic climate change and revolution-inducing levels of inequality. Having your own children as an upper middle class family only exacerbates BOTH of these problems. The last thing this planet needs is more kids. Yours, or anyone else's.
If you MUST be a parent because you are unable to transcend your most primitive biological wants, then adopt.
60
How sad life must be for someone holding such a bleak, miserable outlook. Thankfully, your prognosis is nowhere near the mark.
39
Reassuring but weightless counterpoint.
1
Ok, but who's going to pay for our Social Security and Medicare?
12
Thank you, Joanne Spataro, for this fascinating piece. Although I'm an elderly gay man, I seem to have much to learn; I did not realize there are folks like you and Lara who are struggling to procreate. Adoption seemed the only option...
8
I would like to say this all very respectfully, but we have a limited scientific understanding of gender (a matter in the brain) and its correlation with biological sex (determined by our genes). We also do not understand how gender and sexuality are linked together.
From an evolutionary perspective, there is a strong predilection towards gender-gene conformity and sexual attraction for the opposite sex. But it's far from absolute as witnessed by the widespread presence of homosexuality in mammals. A species survives if enough offspring are produced in each generation to replace the prior generation.
Transexuals seem to be an even smaller subset of individuals than homosexuals. This is probably a result of our 'imperfect' biology as far as sex and sexuality operate. Or there could be some group survival advantage to sexuality variations in a social species like our own.
In any case, I wonder what people will do when science better understands the origins of gender affinity, sexuality, and deviations from the 'norm.' Would transgender individuals prefer a brain procedure or medicine that adjusts their gender preference? What about corrective fetal therapy? Or 'optimal' egg and sperm selection?
While more knowledge is needed, science marches on and new therapies are likely to be developed. Future individuals and parents will probably face difficult and so far unanticipated challenges. Are these also opportunities...?
7
Those are all interesting and important topics. There is a lot of research on homosexuality, but much, much less on transgender people. (The logistical and ethical hurdles for designing studies around that population are huge.) Moreover, while homosexuality is a pretty simple concept to grasp, gender identity is not. The paradigm of gender independent of sex is itself a construct, a philosophical framework, without any scientific backing. It’s not testable. It’s also pretty radical, something a lot of transgender activists and allies often refuse to acknowledge. Most people don’t make a distinction between sex and gender—they’re just synonyms—and a lot of them reject the idea that they’re separate.
Some researchers have taken a more scientific approach, among whom J. Michael Bailey is probably the most well-known. His research and theories, however, are rejected by many transgender people who believe it to be an assault on their identity. Unfortunately, some activists have taken that rejection to extremes. There’s a great book, Galileo’s Little Finger, that documents the controversy. I highly recommend it.
11
Nothing displays the true colors of the NYT readership better than comments sections for op-eds about trans life. These op-eds are met with open (and popular, as tracked by the "Recommend" feature) disgust, hate and indifference. It's all #TheResistance until resisting includes support for one of the most at-risk and maligned communities. It's gross, and the Times is complicit.
14
Au contraire: I see very few putdowns and a lot of encouraging, tolerant remarks.
26
I'm sure this fertility thing is important to you and I don't begrudge you whatever you want in life, but I wonder why the NY Times spends so much space on the travails of homosexuals and transsexuals when the needs of impoverished African-Americans, Latino migrant workers, and opiod-afflicted poor white folks affect more people and have a greater impact on our society and our politics.
I think there is a deeper agenda on the part of upper middle class white women in the media -- and at the NY Times in particular -- to take power from the patriarchy.
And one way of doing this is to empower those gender groups that are anything other than male. Another way is to go after any prominent person (Ryan Lizza, Woody Allen, Al Franken, Garrison Kiellor, etc.) who has ever expressed any sexual interest in women.
I'm not saying there is anything wrong with women taking over society in this new wave of feminism, but I think it deserves to be called out for what it is.
60
Started good, got bad, ended weird?
17
Wow! Where to begin? I guess I need some time to recover from your statement that the men you listed were ‘gone after’ simply because they expressed ‘any’ sexual interest in women! The mind boggles...
19
This is actually very true. Black men get shot by the police like it's 1865. Disabled people have the highest rate of poverty and unemployment of any group in the country. But this is the type of fringe issue the NYT pushes on the public. This shows a definite ideological bias and it isn't helping the weakest members of society.
36
This piece couldn't be more timely. Tomorrow morning, I will be taking my trans, teenage son to his first prescribed consult with a fertility clinic. He hopes to begin hormone replacement therapy in a few months. Your description of how young, transgender individuals feel about this subject at the time of their transition matches what my son feels exactly. Right now, I believe he thinks of tomorrow's appointment as simply a formality he needs to endure in order to continue the overall process- one more thing to check off the list. I, on the other hand, am full of worry about how a decision made now will effect his future.
48
This seems like a reckless experiment for Joanne's benefit that has the potential to go very badly for everyone involved.
98
“The way fertile cisgender people do: They simply couple up, and boom — a child is born.”
Um...no. That’s not how it works for a lot of us. Many “cisgender” couples struggle with infertility. Many adopt. Many give up.
But to understand that the either would have to look outside of her own bubble.
169
Continuing my (angry) thoughts on the tone and word choice in this piece...
I am sick and tired of Identity Politics. When the writer refers to me (because I was born female and am perfectly happy with that) as “cisgender,” that puts me in me in a box that fits me into her worldview. What is the motivation behind such categorization? I don’t need a new label. Female fits me just fine.
I am not “cisgender,” Ms. Spataro. I am a woman, as you are. I am heterosexual — or “straight,” if you prefer that label. That is my subcategory, if you want to put me in a smaller group. I don’t care who anyone else desires or loves. I don’t care what gender anyone identifies with, or if they identify with none. Gender reassignment treatments and surgery are none of my business unless the question of medical insurance coverage comes up. But don’t you dare label me to fit your “Identity-Politics” agenda.
297
Oh thank you thank you thank you for your sensible post. My sentiments exactly.
2
The line you quoted specifically says "fertile cisgender people." Some cisgender couples do, of course, deal with infertility, but the author is not referring to them.
And the reason why you are referred to as a cisgender person is because that is what you are (and what I am, if it makes any difference). To claim the unqualified term "female" for yourself relegates transgender females to the other, the deviation, the lesser.
I can't imagine any teenager taking thier future fertility seriously, no matter why it might be imperiled. That discussion has to be near 100 on the ick-meter. Teens aren't supposed to be planning on having a passel of kids just lots of sex and adventure. The realization that "now" is the time to have kids hits most people pretty hard whether it comes in the 20s, 30s, or 40s. It's like waking up out of a dream where there's been an annoying alarm, only to discover it really is your alarm.
Best of luck to the wirter and her family.
12
Good Lord, I mean who cares ... Yes, we're all entitled to " life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness", and by all means enjoy them; but are we all really interested in each and every detail of each and every individual's pursuit of such?
71
Wondering what are the long term effects of taking opposite sex hormones, or going back and forth between genders. It does not seem holistic or healthy.
72
I just cannot imagine a transgender person reversing his or her transition for any reason. They are who they are when you meet them. That's the deal. That is the package. To ask them to change back to meet some sudden desire is to put them in a grave psychological situation.
Transgender people can meet partners who are single parents; they can adopt; they can find a sperm donor....but to ask for more than that just doesn't seem like a good idea.
23
Best of luck to you both!
7
I can't help but be struck by the tremendous selfishness this writer exudes, in the casual assumption that her romantic choices will have easy medical solutions with happy consequences. If you're tough enough to fight for your own right to love whomever you want, then for chrissakes, can't you abandon the cliches of biological child being "better" than an adopted one? Maybe the path you're on demands more than just pat solutions and simple answers and casual decisions. There are plenty of children desperate for even one parent who loves them, let alone two.
162
It's not selfish to try to conceive a child. And she hasn't made any assumptions about "easy medical solutions" — they're doing it the old-fashioned way.
9
Well, sure it is. Technically, it's always a fairly selfish act to try to conceive a child, especially considering the strain on the planet our population poses today, irrespective of the gender or sexual orientation/identity of the parties involved.
I do wish more people would consider adoption, opting to take care of children already in the world, who in most cases really need that care.
How is it easier for this couple to adopt than to actually have a child naturally?
6
"The way fertile cisgender people do: They simply couple up, and boom — a child is born."
I read this and immediately thought, what a perfect example for Occam's Razor. The simplest explanation is the correct one. It isn't complicated. Stop trying to make it so.
17
There is extraordinary entitlement nowadays to have a child -- at any age, and any gender. I see it all the time in straight and gay couples. The universe doesn't owe anyone a child. You have to take your chances and also make peace with the various decisions you have made in life.
204
Hallelujah!
20
jboone,
I’m confused. Are you referring to IVF? Surrogacy? Adoption?
2
Best of luck to both of you!
6
My first reaction to reading this was discomfort. That’s the truth. I try not to judge it but I just don’t understand it, maybe I am too old. But my hot button issue is child abuse. When I think of the horrifying news stories I have read over my lifetime of things that “traditional” couples have done to their children – the child rapes, the 8 year old beaten to death, the 1 year old so severely abused that he never spoke or walked again, the toddler tied to a chair with duct tape because he kept falling over from the blows, the torment and torture so many innocent young babes have suffered at the hands of their “traditional” parents. These stories and images stay with me forever and I grieve for the fact that anyone in society can procreate. Even the evil and sub-human among us and God help their innocent offspring. So when I think of all the innocent babes suffering at the hands of these “traditional” beasts, I say I don’t care what your sexual orientation or LGBTQ/transgender situation is. As long as you will love and cherish and care for your children, may God help you have them.
198
Deb, that was simply beautiful. Thank you.
19
I agree. I had the exact same thoughts as Deb, and she expressed them better than I ever could. Thank you.
Thank you very much, Deb. My hot button is also child abuse, and in my view you are 100% correct.
7
Ok, but don't call it a lesbian experience. It's not. As an actual lesbian, I have very little sympathy for the writer.
174
Thank you! I tried to post a comment similar to this but it was rejected by the powers that be. Spataro may self-identify as a lesbian, but she could only possibly be a lesbian in the loosest semantic sense. What's really going on here is a straight (or queer) woman trying to have a kid with a biologically male queer man. So...I'm not sure what's so mind-blowingly radical here.
66
I would hope you have sympathy for her as a human being.
8
I do not think it is for me to say that a hookup with a guy for the purposes of insemination makes the woman any less a lesbian. Over the decades I expect not a few lesbian couples have arranged for insemination the old-fashioned way.
16
Well this all made my head spin and my chin itch.
I wish you the best in your quest for children!
5
So a biological man and a biological woman are trying to have a baby by having sex. Big deal! It’s been done for thousands of years!
170
Much, much, much longer. The news just hasn’t reached New York until now....
39
I delayed childbearing in order to finish graduate education, then pay off loans , so I could support a child. I assumed I would be able to get pregnant in my late 30’s but it wouldn’t happen.
I did grieve at the time for my inability to get pregnant with my husband .
Fast forward—as the parent of 2 beloved adopted children, now teenagers, in retrospect I would not have it any other way.
If you want to be a parent you can make it happen, and you will not care if you share the same DNA or not.
74
Considering the adoption option might possibly be the easier way to go here with this.
But it's your lives, do whatever is best for you and your partner.
Good luck to all.
5
Every baby is a miracle, and this is a more complicated miracle. My best wishes.
5
Please advise how much of the extra (and extraordinary) medical work will be paid for by (a) the public through taxes and other contributions to government or (b) private parties through increased medical insurance premiums.
55
Really? As the author explains, the couple is trying to conceive by going off hormones for a period of time. So the extra cost is ... nothing. Are you always so opposed to fertility treatment, or only when it's done by people you don't like?
54
Who's paid for the hormones?
1
Thank you for your beautiful, moving, thoughtful and important article Joanna.
You and Lara are strong and courageous. What you are going through is not easy. Loving wishes and hope sent your way that everything works out the way you want it to - your child will be lucky to have the two of you as parents.
13
Thank you for writing about your struggle and thanks to the NYT for publishing it. Our son told us two years ago that he was transgender and wanted to begin transitioning. I have forwarded the article and hope it will provoke thoughtful introspection and possibly action to allow for opinions in the future.
23
Your child is a lucky person. Wishing you, and her, all the best. Thank you for writing.
3
There is a huge primacy in our lives to our ability to have children. We evolved to be able to do this — that’s what our sex organs and hormones are ultimately for.
I understand people who know they don’t ever want children. I think I understand people who have to transition because their biological sex feels like a lie. But if someone can possibly live with being their given biological sex I think they should really try even if it doesn’t fully feel like them. It could well be worth it just to preserve fertility.
I grew up in a very feminist world and it was not acceptable to act feminine. I found that burdensome and unfair but I lived within the confines of my world. I read an article recently that said “imagine if you woke up the opposite sex — you would want to change back right?” I’m not sure I would. It’s like if you get in an elevator, if everyone is facing the back you probably just turn around like everyone else? What I’m trying to get at is sometimes it’s worth just going along with the flow. We don’t always have to be ourselves— that can be what playing and art and intimacy are about.
Children do matter — many people find themselves wanting them very badly. They are practical, too, for old age. Children should have the right to know their biological parents; surrogacy is probably exploitive; adoption is difficult. People who want to transition should think about this very carefully and take their time. People change but some things can’t be taken back.
15
I am a transgender man married to a cisgender (non transgender) woman. We used a sperm donor and she carried our two kids. While I am not biologically related to my kids, I am their dad, full stop.
I appreciate that this article discusses the existence of trans people as parents. However, I wish we were hearing from the author’s wife, rather than the author herself. Fertility is deeply personal, and opinion pieces about the fertility potential of a particular demographic should ideally not be written by someone who is not a member of that group.
That said, I do think the author makes some valid points. I don’t recall anyone discussing fertility with me prior to transition, though that was fifteen years ago. I suspect that there is an implicit assumption, even on the part of providers of trans healthcare, that trans people do not want to be or should not be parents. That needs to change.
49
Is the grip of identify politics so strong that we can no longer read someone's viewpoint without lamenting the fact it's not expressed from a member of the most marginalized group in the story? You're right that fertility is deeply personal. So is being engaged and committed to someone. This is a story about both the author and her fiance.
54
No, I do appreciate the author’s thoughts, and I thought I made that clear. However, I think it is always fair and relevant to examine who is doing the talking.
6
Also, it is not just a story about her and her partner. It is an opinion piece on the treatment of fertility in trans folks. Labeling my comment as an example of “identity politics,” whatever that really is, is to forestall any real consideration of my thoughts. And I have to say, I resent the implication that I, as a trans person, should just happily accept, without critique, any piece a non trans person writes on trans people.
10
At this time, there are only 3 other comments, 2 of which do nothing to address the point of your story. I'd like to add a 4th, if anything, just to let you know that your time and efforts in writing this have not been lost on the reading public.
I have never wanted to kids, but being a cis woman, I have been counseled my whole life to keep in mind that I might want to have kids someday. I think you're right, it ought to be counseled to everyone across the gender spectrum, as child-bearing and rearing ought to be the responsibility of the entire community, regardless of gender. I'm only half-joking when I say that if I have to listen to everyone tell me I'll regret not having kids because one day it'll be too late, you should too. Half-joking.
We have so many choices available to us that I think it can be difficult to consider the decisions we make as anything other than opportunities lost of gained. This used not to be a choice we got to make - most of us had kids unless we couldn't. But things are very different now, thankfully, and we ought to communicate that reality in a meaningful way.
Sincerely, I wish good luck to you and your partner. May the hormone rages make way for happy miracles.
42
While I understand the very real complications this situation presents, I have this feeling you two will look back on this time and have some good laughs remembering how your own raging hormones and trajectories were tested! I hope you are sharing those laughs with your beautiful child. Best of luck and thank you for continuing to educate people on what it means to be human.
55
Joanne - Thank you for your well written, insightful piece. This issue is something I hadn't thought about. I am appalled at the tenor of the few comments I've seen here. Fertility issues are very tough on the people who go through them - "engaged and enraged" hits the nail on the head. I hope that you and Lara are able to become the wonderful parents you want to be. Best wishes.
27
As the miracle of life co-mingles with the triumph of the human spirit - hoping and having a feeling things will turn out fine for you two...
And whomevers follow...
Your babies already feel loved - godspeed...
13
The unique challenges you're both facing will only make you better parents as each life experience makes us more generous and understanding. Your journey will enable you to empathize with your child and work tirelessly to understand his/her point of view. It's so worthwhile and the world always needs more thoughtful parents. Your children are yours whether you share genetics or not.
20
I wish you the best!
I'm glad I got to say that to you, but I was surprised the NYT set up a comments section for your piece, given the regrettable specimens of humanity that will stop by to offer their two cents.
120
And are those “regrettable specimens of humanity” all the commenters with whom you disagree, LBW?
48
The old fashioned way is certainly a lot more fun but there are so many children that need a good home. Caring parents are the key ingredient.
20
Agree with “so many children that need a good home.” Too many kids go unadopted — children who live right here in the US — while people go through through hellish procedures (and tens of thousands of dollars, or more) to get pregnant. Something is wrong with this picture.
20
Based on what I have heard and read, adoption is often difficult and expensive and there are many hoops to jump through. I do not know if I would have what it takes to deal with a traumatized older foster child who acts out or with a drug exposed kid or one with other special needs that require care into adulthood. Those are the kids who are available for adoption. Nor would I really to have continual contact with the child’s birth relatives, as also seems to be the norm these days. It isn’t as easy as just adopting.
5
One reason many people, including myself, are horrified by "gender confirmation" surgery is that it destroys a person's reproductive potential. We should not be doing such things to anyone, especially not people in their teens and early 20s.
169
Transgender individuals who aren't able to transition face a sharply elevated risk of suicide. It is, very concretely, a life saving procedure for many people, and the fact that there are still advances to be made doesn't change that fact.
66
What are your other reasons for being "horrified"? I get the feeling that you're cloaking prejudice and hostility under supposed 'concern' for these hypothetical young adults.
13
Transgender individuals face a high suicide rate, something like 40%, before transitioning. However, post-op individuals ALSO have a suicide rate around 40%. It suggests that for some people, transitioning is just a cosmetic change, and the mental struggle is not alleviated.
6