If a trained firefighter could not get out, something is very very wrong.
4
Ay! 1970. RVN. Sitting in the open door of a UH-1 (Huey) helicopter next to the door gunner. No belts. Holding on to the door frame. Copter turning on its side and us looking straight down to the ground (1000 ft away). Wondering why we never fell out.
1
I believe the safety harnesses must be removed. Thank you.
1
And yet Republicans (and "Libertarians") claim regulation is "bad". . .
Yeah, in some "Mad Max" macho right wing fantasy regulation is "bad" . . but who wants to live in a "Mad Max" macho right wing fantasy? I bet the people who died in this crash didn't. They probably assumed it was safe – just like we all assume that the food we purchase at the grocery is safe, and that the medications from the pharmacy are safe, and that the bank which handles our finances is safe and following reasonable standards.
Republicans are undoing all of that in order to "spare" their corporate donors the cost of having to be responsible.
Is it time for our country to split along Red/Blue lines? I am about there.
2
The pilot had two options - a water landing or a hard landing (with little control) on a road or parking lot or into a building, hurting others. Clearly the pilot felt his chances were best in the water since he had pontoons that would inflate and the helicopter would float. Unfortunately, not all of the pontoons inflated properly, leaving an unevenly balanced aircraft, causing the copter to tilt over, take on water and sink. The passengers had no ability to get out quick enough and all of them, even the EMTs drowned, knowing they were dying. This company is gone, the pontoon company is gone, the open door flights are gone. Tragically, so are all the passengers save the pilot.
1
I've been on open-door flights in U.S. Navy and U.S. Coast Guard helicopters and it's a truly great, exciting experience. It was years ago and I don't remember all of the details, but I do know that there were far more safety precautions taken than on the Liberty flight. Among others, I wore a safety harness that I put on myself and could release easily if needed.
As reported, the safety harness on the Liberty flight was a deathtrap. It is totally unrealistic to expect an untrained passenger to be able to free himself or herself from a harness that could only be released from the passenger's back under these conditions -- just having survived a crash, the aircraft turned upside down so that the passengers are hanging from their seats, cold water pouring into the aircraft and the only way out to find the knife and cut through tough nylon straps. Perhaps one in a hundred randomly selected passengers would survive.
3
Live by the thrill and die of it and why is it becoming a governmental responsibility?
2
Because these people didn't realize that their lives where at risk, Skippy.
9
As someone who took my first helicopter ride at a 1995 state fair in a *doorless* chopper with just a lap belt across the pilot, myself, and my dad, I can say it was fairly terrifying, since the lap belt was clearly not going to prevent the passenger on the end from falling out. While harnesses make more sense, it's too much of a safety risk to allow it, period.
4
That a piece of baggage hit the fuel shut off switch is ludicrous. Such switches always either have a guard that must be overcome or are gated where it takes a intentional effert to select off. I know, I've been in the business for 40 years as a aircraft mechanic with a inspection authorization, skydiver, pilot and technical writer.
12
It's interesting to note that the helicopter landed in water and proceeded tip lean, and submerge. The Hudson is not a crystal clear lake, it is merky dark water with no visibility past a couple inches most. Once you are under water you cannot see anything. You cannot even see passengers, or how they may be strapped in.
The thought of latch holding someone in by their back is horrifying.
11
I am an aerial photographer and have thousands of hours in turbine aircraft - many over New York City and have flown in everything from a twin-engine turbine down to a dual seat trainer.
I've never flown with Liberty Helicopter or NY On Air They approached me a few years ago and I was not interested.
I fly with people who fly for the film industry and know how to fly for the camera. Every flight there is a safety brief and a plan in case something goes wrong.
Initially, this was reported as a photo flight. But this was not a pro photo flight. It was an AStar B350 full of people on a photo tourism flight.
For pro shoots - the most important aspect is safety and that means - less weight - more power. Aerial photograph requires unusual altitudes and proximity. You need max power in case something goes wrong.
Every ship that I have been in - either had a quick release harness that I can get out of within seconds or a seat-belt with quick release. All gear is tethered in and nothing can fly out of the ship.
It is incredibly sad that this accident occurred and the loss of life.
Many of the pilots that I fly with have HEED bottles on board - small air supply good for a few minutes and always a personal flotation device.
Flying low and slow over water, with a full load of people is challenging for any pilot.
The real fault lies in the safety brief and the type of harness used.
16
As an airplane pilot, paraglider pilot and a Hang glider pilot, I think I know a little bit more than the average person about assessing risk when it comes to flying. I would have serious concerns if I was strapped in like they were when flying over land let alone water.
In the hang/paraglider community water landings are for the most part thought of as likely deadly, we fly with a knife to attempt to cut ourselves free like they had but most of us most likely practiced how would do this in our minds if not actually messed around in a pool with our harness. I tell myself if I have a choice between trees and water trees it will be. And in a Hang glider trees can also be deadly not so much in a paraglider. In professional aviation we owe it to the people in the back to make sure we do not expose them to unnecessarily high levels of risk. This type of flying is fine until something goes wrong and people with little to no training have one chance to do an escape correctly all from a 10minute video. Unnecessary risk as far as I'm concerned.
7
Is everyone missing the BLADE logo on the side of the chopper? Touting to be the next “Uber in the sky”. Will BLADE hide behind Heliflight in this circumstance? Unscathed? BLADE offering various private, charter and on demand flights to various areas and promoting hard to capture business in the northeast corner. At their posh lounges you can be served alcoholic and even a “sippy cup” while embarking on their helicopter flight to and from the Hamptons. Could anyone remove any type of harness if impaired by alcohol should there be an emergency landing? Where does the FAA stand on this? As for this tragic helicopter flight, where does the FAA stand with this type of harness that was used on this type of open door flight? Or does the FAA not over see this “safety” factor. Often believed to be in the interest of “safety” this is a serious question. Why aren’t flotation devises “Mandated” on ALL helicopters? Once again, loopholes in the FAAs own rulings to benefit the aviation industry to keep costs down.
Sen. Schumer stated to have all Part 135 Heliflight choppers grounded for a brief time. Why only Heliflight? Does the public know that Part 135 pilots are more rested and have higher standards then Part 91? The FAA is sadly broken.
5 lives tragically lost and the fingers can’t be only pointed to Heliflight.
Boycott and end these types of tours. Stop “Air taxi” , noise and air polluting service to the Hamptons too before a chopper crashes on a house just like in California.
8
This whole scheme is a nightmare. I've worn those harnesses in construction, you'd be hard pressed to cut yourself out of the multiple straps while your fellow passengers flail in freezing water, it's very unrealistic. The floats look like they'd force the copter upside down. A bad system.
10
The owners and managers of this company are guilty of manslaughter and should be tried, convicted and put in prison.
8
I've never been interested in a helicopter ride since Officer Baldy, who followed traffic for WGN when I was in grade school, was decapitated in a crash. It obviously made a profound impact on me. I also remember a WaPo writer who walked into the blades when she got off to greet her parents on a trip home.
6
I took a bus on a field trip w/ my son's high school class recently and the driver showed us where the knife was to cut her out of her seatbelt if she were to become incapacitated.
8
Ban these self-indulgent helicopter flights, in the Grand Canyon too. Protect affluent risk-takers from themselves. Private plane and copter jaunts at low altitude over the city and the rivers might be fun, but they also endanger the public. Think about the plane flown by a journeyman Yankees pitcher a number of years ago that hit an apartment house on E 72d and just as easily could have flown into NY Hospital. Tourists cannot be expected to absorb and apply briefings more suitable for Navy Seals or Special Forces types ( wrote this before seeing a very apt comment below)...Moreover, is it clear the pilot was auto-rotating or did something else on the craft fail other than the engine. I rode in open door HUs with just a thin seat belt. Why? Not for thrills, because it was my job to go to fire bases and defend GIs in courts martial, and the guy sitting on the floor at the open door was manning an M 60 machine gun. Nice views, except for the bomb craters on the landscape.
6
I remember well the small plane that a Yankee pitcher flew straight into a tall condo building on E 72 between York and the river in 2006, a building that has Hospital for Special Surgery facilities on the lower floors.
1
The safety belt should be automatically released when the helicopter is at zero height or when it comes in contact with (a lot) of water or when the pilot presses a special button!
There would be a lot of possible thinksble solutions, each better than a system with a knife...
3
Training before the flight was totally inadequate and this helicopter company had a checkered safety record so why were they allowed to continue taking passengers?
4
The pontoons look inaquate. To float the helicopter, they must displace a volume of water greater than or equal to the weight of the helicopter and it’s occupants.
Where is FAA oversight ?
3
Regulations we don't need regulations we need to cut them says the president, this is what happens with little to no regulations.
4
Spotlight a broader issue:
It makes no sense to license a business that requires customers to sign a liability release as part of purchasing a service or product. Said businesses should simply not be in business.
Where in the Constitution does it grant a business the right to require a person to give up their constitutional rights such as “life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness” to engage with a business?
1
Every flight harness I've ever worn had a quick-release capability. But you had to study it beforehand. Really lock into your mind what your move would be if you need out in a hurry. It's hard to believe these passengers had any training before they took off.
1
One of the local TV stations had a feature the other night about a place that does training for underwater emergencies, including helicopters -- and this one is the only one in greater NY area that will accept lay people, as opposed to pilots, who apparently have to undergo periodic retraining to keep their licenses. It seemed terrifying to me. even though they have a lot of people on hand to make sure people don't get into any trouble during this training. It is shocking to me that these sightseeing copters can get away with short videos and awful to think of the panic and terror the passengers on that copter must have experienced.
2
Even if the passengers had been trained to use the knives to cut themselves free, it’s hard to imagine anyone operating rationally and efficiently enough to use a knife underwater. Perhaps we should be developing some sort of ejection button technology that cannot be accidentally triggered...
1
Regulation has become a dirty word in some circles of this country, but this is an example of why government regulation is important!
You need governmental agencies setting safety standards rather than having them left to a private company whose only goal is profit.
5
My heart is deeply saddened that these young lives were lost tragically and in this way. I do think however that consumers MUST do their homework... You can no longer assume that these companies are going to tell you everything that you should be asking. We live in a time and age in were anything can happen. It's time for people who go on either helicopter rides, roller coasters, etc.. to begin to assess whether or not it's safe to do so and also investigate the kinds of safety gear that might be needed and how to get out of them in case of an emergency. if only those question were asked then perhaps this article might have turned out differently. So tragic.
3
I see a lot of comments saying the harness should have a quick release like car race driver's use (FWIW I race cars and fly small planes). Unfortunately these comments are not based on knowledge of safety gear.
I am sure one consideration in the use of non-release harnesses is that a quick release harness can be easy to release accidentally if you are not familiar with them.
Any safety gear is a compromise. A design which works well in one situation can hinder safety in another. Here the tradeoff is between ensuring passengers remain tethered under normal operations vs. an increased risk in one specific type of accident. Without detailed knowledge of the risk profile you can not say if this type of harness was an appropriate choice or not.
Many comments here show far too much rush to judgement with little knowledge to back it up. Allow the people with actual knowledge of air safety, the FAA and NTSB, conduct a proper investigation, evaluate the facts and determine if changes are needed.
One more point, Part 135 (commercial) helicopter operations have a very good safety record. You hear about accidents because they are spectacular, not because they are common. The call to ban them is hysteria based, again, on a lack of knowledge.
Please either educate yourself before you call for changes, or trust those who are educated in the field. An uneducated opinion is a dangerous thing.
24
Just about everyone in the professional helicopter film / photo business thought the nyon harnesses were a dangerous deathtrap waiting to happen, and I bet FAA will weigh in on that and confirm that those were negligent.
If a person who wants to fly doors off in a helicopter for photo purposes cannot be made to understand the workings of a quick release harness then they should not be flying.
And yes professional use of helicopters has a low rate of accidents but tour companies like nyon and liberty push the envelope of safety and maintenance and subsequently have the worst safety record.
2
Amen. Just take a look at who's in the White House.
Liberty and FlyNYOn are owned by the same parent corporation. FlyNYOn is trying to give the impression that they contracted with Liberty for the flight. It's the same company. Terrible price to pay for 'Likes' on a social media account.
11
I "frostbite" sail nearby every Sunday throughout winter. Get dunked in 40°F water, no drysuit, 100 yds from shore? I'm sorry, but your chances are slim my friend!
6
Over the years I have witnessed the aftermath of several copter crashes in the E River, including in the dead of winter. It's my impression that as long as people can get free of the copter, to the surface, and hold on to something they will be okay. Are usually pulled out by rescue boat in 10-15 minutes. However, the ones trapped below always die, if not on scene then days later at hospital, as by the time they are pulled free of the copter out they have suffered irreversible brain damage.
In things like this, there is always a compulsion to push limits. Particularly among the young cohort which sadly comprised the victims. So going up in a helicopter isn't madness enough. Now we have to go up with the doors off. Please. Also that was a nice day but somewhat chilly. Way up there must have been quite cold. I spent a wonderful afternoon in Central Park that day and it was adventure enough. At one point from the Ramble we spied, hovering against the clear sky to the Northwest, a red helicopter hovering stationary in the sky.
4
I love New York City. I have never seen a more beautiful nor magnificent city, especially at sundown. But I would never risk my life by riding in ANY helicopter just to get that perfect picture. Just not worth it. Deepest condolences to the families and friends of the those who perished.
6
This pilot should not only lose his certification, but should be tried for manslaughter. I find it hard to believe he was unable to free at least one of his passengers. Sounds like he jumped ship to save himself.
13
I have thousands of flight hours experience as a fixed wing flight instructor. Emergency situations are always considered before, during, and after each flight. If someone told me to take passengers up on a flight that would require them to cut their way out, I would have simply not taking that flight. Utterly insane!
These were not test pilots, they were paying tourists.
This assumed negligence is just another reminder for me to despise the current rollback this administration has championed. No, No, No - you simply can't trust businesses to do the right thing. They are human, and will soon become complacent to their responsibilities.
18
Also, the doors were open.
2
Nice job Fly-NYON must be an awful way to die being chained to a sinking ship with no way to get free. This shady company could have used five point quick release harnesses but instead chose to chain their customers to the aircraft so they would not undo the harnesses to get a better photo. This was a dumb business and hopefully they will no longer be able to buy insurance for their criminally negligent enterprise, their instagram feed should be enough to put them in jail.
4
With a harness passengers could not release because it used a single carabiner in the middle of the passenger's back it was up to the pilot to help them. Did he even try? He was the only one not restrained that way and he is the only one who was able to get out without drowning in a futile struggle against that harness it seems. At a minimum that kind of harness needs to be fixed so that passengers can free themselves quickly in an emergency.
3
I keep looking at the yellow pontoons in the picture. Usefull only in water,yes? If in water, doesn't the weight guatrantee that the pontoons will be uppermost and the weight below them, under water? Seems to me to be a guaranteed to fail design. I think all involved should be held neglgently responsible.
2
I'm really irritated with these commenters whose only concern is the noise pollution. Your city is filled with homeless people, the displaced; yet all gentrifiers can think about is their comfort and ease.
2
'...yet all gentrifiers can think about is their comfort and ease'.
Speaking as a NYer, we actually like complaining... about a LOT of things. ;-) It's considered a past time...a way to bond.
Helicopters are not toys. They're a uniquely difficult to operate and relatively unforgiving aviation tool indispensable for certain applications but which don't well fit budget-constrained operations, such as competitive tourism businesses.
5
Really, We are living 2018 and you do not even need a pilot to fly a helicopter.
food for thought.
We do not need human pilot any type of flying vehicle. It is just psychological.
It is not pilot's mistake.
As a long-time climber: carabiners come in locking and non-locking types. I'm guessing that these were the former, with a knurled and threaded ring that locks the carabiner closed. If so, undoing it under water, with cold fingers, from behind you would be a challenge. Even opening a non-locking type of carabiner, releasing the connection and getting out of the seat harness in these conditions wouldn't be easy.
If these flights are to continue, it would seem that open windows would be a better option than no doors.
1
I find it revealing that no one but the pilot escaped. As the captain of the aircraft, his main responsibility is to his passenger's safety. The fact that he was able to remove himself but couldn't cut free even one passenger should be a major point in the investigation.
21
Not sure what the insinuation is here. The pilot's harness is far easier to quick release from than the passengers, which explains his exit. It seems unrealistic to suggest that any one human could free five others from the tangled mass of harnesses, tethers, and camera gear in a submerged, capsized helicopter cabin drifting rapidly down the cloudy East River.
8
Eveni if the pilot had the knife required to cut the tethering, I imagine it would have been very difficult, if not impossible, to get them out of an upside down sinking helicopter before they drowned. There have been several of these crashes in the E River over the years, including some where quick efforts were made to get someone out, but I am not aware of any cases where such efforts were successful. The only people I am aware of who survived were those (both pilots and pasengers) who were able to free themselves immediately.
Insinuation: Pilot was responsible for the passengers. He failed.
It was chilling and, I believe, inappropriate to see the video clips of the passengers are they took off.
What a sad event. I'm so sad for their loved ones.
3
It wasn't inappropriate. If you have no problem watching videos of black men being gunned down by police, then why are these images "inappropriate"? The bigger question is why this company exists and whoever thought it was a good idea to call riding in a death trap an excursion.
5
I actually get what njglea is getting at. Showing their faces, and then our naturally putting ourselves in their places, as 'carefree human beings' who have no idea what is about to befall them, is somewhat pointless, and morbid. Whereas, at least in the videos of folks getting beaten by the police, those who try to say 'nah...this stuff never happens..' or 'nah, those people had it coming'....such videos have been able to prove otherwise, and show that police brutality is more prevalent than some people previously wanted to admit.
2
For me, I completely see through the reasons why no one from either Liberty or NYNYON is requiring these poor non-aviation ready riders to be fully educated by either video or hands-on pre-flight training about having to access a 'knife' to "cut" their thick nylon harnesses themselves in order to avoid death in the case of on board emergency. Why?
Because most level headed individuals would run for the hills and demand their money back. While this is a sad ending for the five who died, I cannot help but wonder if they had been made to understand the risks about these harnesses from the beginning- they could have made a far more 'informed' decision about taking that 'trip'. Sick.
14
Why are we having tourist helicopters flying around lower Manhattan on a Sunday night? First, I thought this type of unnecessary helicopter activity was supposed to have stopped. Second, and more importantly. I suspect this type of unnecessary activity was stopped but the industry has decided to use a loophole they have found to continue these unnecessary tours. So, someone should check into this.
15
Pilot flew from N.J. helipad not NY. NJ should ban tours also but they won’t because the aviation industry continues to grow. Sadly, the FAA continues draft rules and regulations to them offer loopholes to benefit the aviation industry. Quite sad for sure. Google ; The vertical andcreadvup in the Grand Canyon crash....
3
"Someone should check into this" THese are famous last words in every tragedy.
2
Tourist helicopter flights over NYC should be banned.
I feel very sad for these young lives lost, and think this company should be closed and its owners held liable for the deaths.
But there's a larger issue: the imposition of great noise and pollution from people outside NYC (in this case, NJ) upon the people who live here.
I live on the UWS (on the top floor) and summer evenings are like a Vietnam movie. There is absolutely no regard for the neighborhoods' residents; we're treated like an attraction at a county fair.
Police & military flights are understandable. News? Not sure. But the equation where a half dozen people get a thrill while 50,000 below get bothered is just wrong. Talk about a 0.1% issue.
Either raise the minimum altitude way above the current 3,000 feet or ban these dangerous, dirty, and selfish tours altogether. Let's get this done before another summer of noise and, possibly, more deaths.
29
These choppers torment and ruin the East end of Long Island as many of these helicopters originate from NYC. Many are served alcohol at the BLADE lounges and continue to sip wine in pretty holders while flying above our homes while in route to and from the Hamptons. Why? If there was an emergency landing, could passengers escape safely while flying under the influence? Ahhhh, please note ; the FAA does not discourage this....
2
Your concern about noise is not a larger issue than the deaths of 5 passengers!
4
Well said. I've always felt terrible for all residents of NYC and NJ who've had to put up with the choppers' noise pollution. I've been just a brief visitor along the Hudson in both NY and NJ on nice days and it's terribly noisy; not something you'd ever want to live with. Now we find out, again, that they're operating while dodging rules and regulations, uncaring about their clients.
2
As someone who has flown in doorless helicopters while making an industrial film, I can attest to the need for allot more safety efforts than were apparently taken here. With no doors or proper equipment mounts, you end up with a bunch of excited passengers flailing around with loose equipment, camera bags and straps. In a very tight space full of controls, this is only a recipe for trouble. There’s also the risk of a jostled passenger dropping a two pound camera from a thousand feet onto some unfortunate victims head.
37
Each helicopter type has a flight regime of having sufficient forward speed and sufficient altitude to allow a safe auto rotation landing (which is basically a controlled crash). When the engine fails the pilot waits until just before landing to use the momentum of the rotors to provide lift to allow a softer landing. If the helicopter is flying to low or too slow auto rotation is compromised. When I flew next to the pilot on Army helicopters the pilot told me they are trained to have an auto rotation landing spot in mind at all times. In the current case to river is always there. I do not think that they are allowed to practice a real auto rotation landing with simulated engine failure because of possible damage to the landing gear skids or wheels.
Sight seeing flights flying low and/or slow are in a dangerous condition if the engine fails. One should consider only flying on multi engine helicopters
13
About a week ago, I was in sitting in DUMBO Park BKLYN having a coffee by Jane's carousel. When suddenly a swift Helicopter appeared menacingly above too close for comfort. And I noticed it had NO doors and it's passengers leaned out with camera lenses and snapped pics. I was alarmed.
I thought what if something went wrong? What if that Helicopter failed to hover or those cameras broke loose or objects flew out it would land on the people below?
In all my years as a NY native, I have never seen such negligence over the city skies. No surprise here.
38
I just can't wrap my head around being tightly cinched into a helicopter seat and given a knife if things go wrong.
25
What level of insanity is this?
Aircraft without doors?! And people strapped to the floor without a way to release the straps?! Knives to cut the straps?!
People actually paid to travel on such a ride? Crazy!
19
A tragedy like this could have been avoided with common sense like having closed doors, and I'll bet Wayne LaPierre and Dana Loesch would even agree with me on this no-brainer solution.
1
As someone who is intimately familiar with these harnesses, and FlyNYON's use of them specifically, it is my opinion that the harness as whole is primarily designed to keep you in the helicopter. The reason these harnesses aren't equipped with a quick release is because you don't want people being able to eject themselves - whether intentionally or inadvertently - while they're hanging outside of the helicopter. The reason the pilot was able to escape so quickly is that he uses a conventional 4-point twist-off harness, which can be released in a matter of seconds.
The harnessing setup and safety process make the basic assumption that you will always make a stationary, upright landing, and thus a true quick release will not be necessary. The carabiner that attaches the harness to the helicopter tether is the locking kind that screws closed, not a quick-release. Using the cutter to cut through the tether would require someone to twist partially around and cut through tether based on feel, not sight. It's a process that I'm not sure I could complete quickly while stationary and right-side-up, much less panicking and upside down in the murky East River water.
After every accident, there is a human tendency to say "If that were me, I would've done ...... differently in order to survive." In this case, it's my sincere belief that there is nothing anyone could've done to quickly free themselves from their harness. The setup is inherently flawed.
96
I understand that you do not want a release that can be accidentally activated. But you can design a release system that can be easily activated but not accidentally activated. I am sure that that is possible.
I would really like to see a cash-flow analysis of these crashes. What is the gross revenue of a company like this (roughly broken down by ticket price times sales volume). Out of that, what is their liability insurance cost? After the inevitable crash, how much does the insurer pay out? Is there really enough gross cash to cover all losses and still leave the operator and the insurer with profits? If not, who gets stiffed (no pun intended)?
Maybe what's needed in the big picture is a narrowing of the concept of a limited liability corporation. The concept has freed up enormous potential by protecting investors, but is it really best for society if it's applied as a default? Especially in an age where corporations have been declared human, maybe they should be required to meet certain standards of safety and stability before their owners are exempted from responsibility for these owned humans' actions. Come to think of it, isn't there a fundamental conflict between the concept of corporate personhood and the 13th amendment?
6
Aircraft pilots have the third highest fatality rate in the United States after commercial fishermen (think "Deadliest Catch") and loggers. Though flying Delta, United or American is extremely safe thanks to years of constant safety improvements built from the lives of earlier deaths, small aviation is hazardous, much more so than a tourist would ever know.
Part of the problem is the continual circumventing of safety concepts as shown, not from any door removal, but by a business who thinks that a video is all one needs to successfully survive a water landing/controlled crash while harnessed into an aircraft with a harness that has no safety releases - and a knife is not a safety release, it's a tool of last resort which takes experience to use in such a situation.
Whether a Ford Pinto auto design or mandated crew rest for aircraft, train or truck crews, profit always trumps safety - until the accidents finally cost more than ignoring their root causes.
31
Can't have easy to release harnesses, for the same reason you can't get out of a roller-coaster seat.
Now what is puzzling is the 2 of the people in the back compartment were employees of this company . And I gather those 2 might be "watchers" of actual passengers as the helo is still a US FAA regulated of so may demand flight attendants of some sort as the pilot cannot watch or help anybody,
So why did not the other 2 employees know of OW bailout procedures?
14
A few years ago, when the waterfront helipad near Wall Street became a reality, some of us took action to reverse the Bloomberg, DeBlasio and EDC decision to allow tourism helicopters to fly over our neighborhoods seven days a week. What was finally accomplished was a reduction in the number of copters and no flights on Sundays.
Clearly not enough.
Helicopters are incredibly noisy, spew fuel byproducts, and must fly too low for anyone's safety. Private companies have no business flying them over any city, town, or inhabited area.
We need police, medical and military copters at times, and that should be it.
35
no more traffic reports for you my friend.
1
Too much money and tourist dollars will be lost so these death traps will continue to fly unabated.
4
A short while back a tour helicopter crashed across the street from me, killing the pilot and two passengers, while one survived. I saw the wreck up close and the helicopter was so small that when it impacted, the engine when into the cabin. Such helicopters, which I found after doing some research, are very crash unworthy, but are used often for tourist flights. I live near the airport and hear and see them all the time. Although this helicopter hit a house, we were lucky that no one on the ground, was seriously hurt. Had the pilot of the New York helicopter not made it to the river, this current crash would have been an even greater disaster. The procedure for freeing oneself by cutting through the harness sounds ridiculously unsafe, given the likelihood that a passenger is going to be injured when he or she tries to do this. A few weeks ago another touring helicopter went down over the Grand Canyon. This whole business needs to be better regulated or restricted. We're lucky when the crashes don't cause deaths on the grounds, but only lucky, as there is nothing to prevent that happening.
50
The helicopter tour companies were likely worried about suicides from their copters if passengers could release their own harnesses.
1
OK how about a release system that can pnly be activated after (1) the pilot has pushed a button or (2) when the doors to the helicopter are closed; or (3) when the helicopter has landed. This certainly needs some thought but given current technology it is not an unsolvable problem. Cutting through a harness with a knife is simply a not good enough option.
2
There will always be thrill-seekers wanting to experience the extreme exhilaration of pushing the limits, and they do so assuming all risk. They sign the consents and they go in with eyes wide open.
That said, that does not excuse companies from making sure basic safety equipment is on board (a knife? really?) and that the craft is inspected and is airworthy. Neither does the willing participation of clients give companies a pass on passenger instruction and rules before a trip begins.
Everyday we see more examples of why common-sense regulations are needed, and how they are sacrificed for the almighty buck. It’s a shame that people — young people, in this case — have to die to make that point.
10
Even if the passengers are knowingly assuming all risk, the same can't be said of people on the ground. If the helicopter had gone down in Manhattan or hit a vessel on the river, the death toll could have been a lot higher. The needs of all stakeholders, not just thrill-seeking passengers, need to be considered.
4
Knives should have never even considered as a tool to get out of a harness.
Knives are not allowed on airplanes.
What if a passenger pulled out one of those knives and used it against the pilot for nefarious reasons?
18
what if, what if, what if... stop, please stop. people die everyday. we cant make the world 100% safe. life is full of choices and some choices are inherently more risky than others.
1
Race cars have had five-point harnesses with a single, central release button for at least 15 years. There is no excuse for an airplane not to be equipped with the same.
13
Some times is difficult to understand how policies are made. We allow that people risk their life in many very risky and some times suicidal "sports" and at the same time we do not allow doctors to prescribe medications to terminal patients.
10
All of these "sightseeing helicopters" in NYC should be banned. They crash far too often and in a crowded city are inherently dangerous to people on the ground, river traffic, bridges, etc. If an amusement park ride had as many fatalities, it would have been shut down long ago.
26
I agree. and cars, buses and trains crash even more frequently than the helicopters. we need to ban all of them too. planes crash also, we need to ban them as well.
2
This tragedy could be compared to the faulty design of various amusement rides where the concept of thrill is placed ahead of the requirement for safety. That this company was allowed to operate their copters with such disregard to safety shows how corrupted the "approval system" for their license has become. Shame on those complicit in the deaths.
6
What is your specific evidence about "various" amusement park rides where thrill is placed ahead of safety? I ask because I actually know someone whose very successful business is designing theme park/amusement park attractions all over the world and thus can tell you that ride safety is a paramount concern.
1
Just adds to the thrill of the flight. In Kauai, the choppers refuel with their engines running and loading/unloading passengers. Gotta keep those profit margins high!
8
Well, when I moved to New York in 1980 you had to carry a knife all over town for safety so this does represent some progress.
6
For all of those who are blaming the operator of the helicopter and lax regulations, I have this question: do you pay attention, any at all, to the safety instructions given when you board a commercial airliner? Do you wear appropriate shoes that would help you escape a crashed airliner without having your feet cut to shreds or severely burned? Do you know to count the rows between your seat and the nearest emergency exit in the event you have to crawl under a smoke filled cabin? No? None of this?
Quite apart from the specifics of this event, in general, it is up to people to also try to provide for their own safety and to take precautions. Don't assume that what you are doing is safe or it "wouldn't be allowed". Know how to get out. Know when you should say, "No, I am not going." Ask yourself: are the risks too high? If you can't answer no or can't even estimate the risks, don't do it.
People most often do stupid, dangerous things when on vacation, like parasailing. Never, ever go parasailing. It looks like great fun, but many people have been killed or severely injured.
A general rule for doing dangerous stuff is to spend a lot of time preparing, the opposite of what someone is likely to do on vacation. Jump in and go are far more likely attitudes. Another rule is not to do something on vacation that you wouldn't do in the calmer environment at home.
We put ourselves the care of others, but that doesn't mean we abandon personal responsibility. Okay?
9
"do you pay attention, any at all, to the safety instructions given when you board a commercial airliner? Do you wear appropriate shoes that would help you escape a crashed airliner without having your feet cut to shreds or severely burned? Do you know to count the rows between your seat and the nearest emergency exit in the event you have to crawl under a smoke filled cabin? "
Yes, yes, and yes. And I fly as seldom as possible. I know from painful personal experience that the unexpected happens and I prepare whenever I can. Only the naive assume everything is safe.
5
thank you, totally agree. but in today's society, there is no personal responsibility and everything bad that happens is always someone else's fault.
1
Many people have also been killed driving cars or walking down the street, things that we all have had a lot more time preparing for than vacation parasailing. I suppose, by your logic, we shouldn't do those things either.
1
Of course safety is paramount but it’s the ‘unsafe’ atmosphere of flying in a helicopter with no doors that is why folks take these flights in the first place. Think about it. You have a choice to hire a helicopter with or without doors. For those that opt to fly without doors, it’s that very danger that pumps the adrenaline for these people. Of course there is a risk involved that’s the whole point. The passengers were shown a safety film about the harnesses. You can bet your top dollar that I would’ve asked where my knife was to cut my harness. So why didn’t they? Naturally someone or something will have to be to blame because ‘accidents’ just don’t happen (of course they do!)
5
agreed. there are no accidents any longer I'd today's society. it's always someone else's fault.
1
Most five-point racing harnesses have a quick release that enables the driver to easily and quickly exit the vehicle in the event of a crash.
:: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five-point_harness
1
Guess they were looking for the thrill of their lives.
Half hour flight is >$500.00 a person?
2
Why have no commenters brought up the frigid water factor? When you first hit extremely cold water one experiences a cold shock response. People start to hyperventilate immediately. For one to three minutes you breathe very fast and deep, uncontrollably. If you go underwater, you could swallow water and die.
13
I'm guessing the open door helicopter tour industry might be taking it in the chin after this. I didn't even know this was a thing. Sure isn't going to be my thing.
7
Not an hour after the crash was reported the company's web site featured an add with two people smiling with the doors clearly off the thing with a backdrop f NY behind them. Clearly this didn't faze the company a bit. Greed over safety. The "thoughts and prayers" from the company spokesperson rings false and hollow.
5
Yeah, bring on more de-regulation because regulations cramp our freedoms! Let's click on the other article on the front page about toxic chemical plants in flood zones. Obama regulated this potential mass disaster, but guess who rescinded the regulations because ... you know, Obama. Happy, Trump voters?
10
yes more regulations, we need more regulations in every area because we are so incapable of being responsible for ourselves. so we need more regulations until we just do whatever the gov't says we should do. that works.
2
Tragic that you need a knife to release your safety harness on a helicopter. I have a cutter in my glove compartment in case I get caught in my car, along with a window breaker. These folks were murdered in my opinion.
3
The pilot must be feeling horrible survivors guilt being that he was the only one to escape alive.
7
The thing people don't understand is that you can upload the same photo from the internet. You don't have to lean out of a helicopter. That you took it doesn't make it cooler. Just dumber. The deaths are as senseless as the touristic trap they fell into.
4
Yikes! So many bad decisions all the way around. Who designed such dangerous harnesses? Who thought that hiding a knife(?!) somewhere in the straps was a good idea for civilians? Who thought it'd be a good idea to show a 'safety' video and call it day? And, who thinks it's a good idea to strap themselves into such a death trap with no questions or vigilant regard for one's own life? Tragic and utterly senseless set of losses here.
8
The article fails to address the nuisance factor of these flights. Police copters, great. News and traffic copters provide a public service. Even commuter flights have some value. But why should those of us who live or work near popular routes have to put up with the noise -- and risks -- from these low-flying, noisy copters just so some affluent tourist can get a dramatic photo to post on his or her Facebook page?
43
We all no that deregulation is a good thing. Get rif of all those pesky regulations so all can make more money. I few people lost along the way is just the price you have to pay. Please do read the other comments that explain all the other colossal stupidities in play here
27
Many stupidities evident in this story; I'll point to just one. The best tool for cutting through a harness would be heavy duty scissors, not a knife.
13
Give me the knife, apparently you have never had to cut a heavy duty harness.
4
Please don’t spread mis-information. As a car racer with extensive experience with harnesses and accidents, the best tool to cut a harness is a shielded razor knife. Cuts thru harness webbing with almost no resistance. Made especially for this purpose, this could easily have been the “knife” they had. Scissors are just about the last tool I would want to use in an accident.
9
Scissors would take too much time in an emergency situation and the harnesses pictured would be very difficult to cut with scissors or a knife. A one point release system is the only viable solution in an emergency situation.
2
Now imagine hundreds of flying taxis over our cities operated by Uber - the company's goal.
33
Or Amazon's flying package delivery drones!
1
I always feel awful for the family members of the dead after these neglect caused accidents. I cant imagine the rage mom/dad feel knowing their child died because of someone else's complete disregard for safety.
23
"Complete disregard for safety" would have been to send passengers up in a door-less copter without ANY harness or restraint. These passengers would have probably been fine if the chopper had not capsized. This was a tragic accident. To claim it was the result of a "complete disregard for safety" is a complete disregard for rational thought. Sadly many people die each year after driving into a lake or river because they're unable to release their seat belts, or navigate around an inflated airbag, or open a door that has auto-locked while the car was in motion. Such tragic deaths are no more due to automobile manufacturers disregard for safety then this instance is.
It seems to be a reoccurring theme in New York City history. I just completed a read of Edward T. O'Donnell's book entitled Ship Ablaze, a story about the tragedy of the steamboat General Slocum in the East River in 1904. It was that era's 9/11; a heavily laden (with family vacationers) boat that caught fire; an era when most folks did not know how to swim. The loss of life was epic, and it was ultimately found to have been caused by malfeasance and ineptness in the (touring) company responsible for the boat.
As then so, too, now. Lax adherence to rules and procedures, combined with a certain level of corporate hubris in pursuit of profit (who allows ignorant individuals in a doors off helicopter in the first place?), guaranteed this accident. It was inevitably bound to happen. So it goes I suppose..
John~
American Net'Zen
19
Five people died in this crash and it was awful.
Around 40,000 Americans die in car crashes EVERY YEAR.
Where is the shock?
Where is the outrage?
Where is the responsibility?
Where is the change?
13
Have you ever heard of MADD?
4
Ridiculous comparison. Shock and outrage about what? People are trained and licensed to drive cars and they know the risks. A tourist on a helicopter is depending on the operator to do their jobs and act responsibly.
4
Ask your elected government officials. And stop voting for the same guy all the time just because "he's a good guy."
1
Much to the chagrin of our liberal friends, people do have a right to make their own decisions, including bad ones that can get them killed. People should be able to fly without doors, to whatever it is they want to do. If they are harmed by it then they suffer. We dont need rules about every possible scenario in life. People should be allowed to meet fate if they choose poorly.
5
There are multiple problems with that mentality. Two of those problems are salient in this situation. The first is that we Americans live in a civil society, not a vacuum. The decisions made by the managers of tourist/flight companies and individuals impact us all. Secondly, though the danger involved here appeared to be obvious, that's not the case in many instances. Also, these are divided times, and defining issues across party lines and by philosophical positions has proven hurtful, not helpful.
Blessings to those hurting over the loss of these precious lives. Each person lost was unique and had something of value to bring to this world. They will be missed.
12
What if people take risks they didn’t know they were taking? What if the tour operator exposed you, or your kid, to risk and didn’t inform you? Who’s liable?
6
Oh really? What about the harm caused to first responders or innocent people who happen to be in the way of your unfettered freedom!
4
Rules and Regulations are bad. Unless something happens to your family. Then it’s “how could they let this happen?”
21
Sounds like the pilot and the helicopter company are in a world of trouble.
6
This company has had crash fatalities before...and it's still in business.
2
"Regulation" has become a GOP dirty word. It's odd that we fail to learn from history, a Titanic mistake.
23
A quick internet search amongst manufacturers of stunt equipment shows 3 or 5 ring quick releases for flying harnesses go for about $200.
The pilot and the tour operators belong in jail.
17
What would you say when the quick release gets quickly released and dumps someone 500 ft into the river? Safety isn't as simple as the knee jerk reactionaries would suggest.
New York (City or State) has no oversight or licensing of these operations?
5
if their harnesses had been secured on the chest side of the passengers, they might have had a better chance of seeing and unfastening the carabiners.
Also, inflated pontoons will always keep the helicopter upside down in the water as they are the most buoyant part of the aircraft.
In short, drowning is assured.
14
Thinking the same thing. Unless landing perfectly flat on smooth water with no wind, those pontoons don't look like they'd keep the thing upright.
Yup. The helicopter is top heavy, so most likely to flip over once in the water. The air bags are there to keep it from sinking to the bottom; they worked properly. Thrill of a lifetime, yeah.
Could also be that the pontoons were designed to keep a copter WITH doors afloat when landing in water. Removing the doors changes the center of gravity, possibly causing the chopper to capsize instead of staying upright.
Does FlyNYon do flights today and the upcoming days with the same setup and way to strap the people into their helicopter? On their website I am still able to book flights these days.
6
For all of the tourist helicopter companies it's business as usual.
1
Maybe "caveat emptor" applies here as well, to some degree?
3
No it does not! Federal safety regulations were violated and in the name of corporate profit five people were killed. This could very well be a negligent homicide case. This is not akin to buying a house or a car.
5
What a nightmare? A knife to escape? Ridiculous.
Now I don't think we need to ban helicopter tours or anything like that. If you are allowed to jump out of a perfectly good airplane for no reason other than the thrill of it, I think we can permit people to take a helicopter ride with the doors open. So long as safety measures are designed and implemented sensibly (unlike this incident obviously).
5
But people are not allowed to jump out of airplanes over crowded cities, are they? Maybe the same should apply to dare devil helicopter rides.
2
When i went to Alaska off a cruise ship , i refused my friends offer of going on a helicopter excursion. I told her I would not take my first helicopter flight in an area with unstable weather conditions. her flight was cancelled later. The same with NYC due to air traffic, down drafts etc. But most of all, I would never fly over the East River. My mother lived on the North Brother island and said the ferry would literally crash into the dock due to the current. Witness the trouble they had attempting the rescue. My thoughts and prayers go to the family of the deceased. i strongly recommend the NYT do an investigation of helicopters in general. If planes kept crashing like that, everyone would be up in arms.
15
I don't believe that there is a fuel flow "switch" on that type of aircraft. I believe there is a fuel flow lever that is located (on the floor) between the pilot and co-pilot's seat that is raised or lowered manually to an indent position, to engage or disengage the fuel pump.
1
Why does Chuck Schumer always like to be in the news before any of the facts are established? The NTSB report on the 2009 liberty helicopter crash put the blame entirely on the fixed wing plane for violating air space regulations over the hudson river. It is not yet certain whose fault if anyone's this is. So, is it too much to ask for some restraint from the Senator?
8
Orrin Hatch said that the most dangerous place in the world is between Chuck Schumer and news cameras.
4
you are talking Chuckie Schumer here are you not? Never let a good photo op go to waste for him.
4
Chuck would attend an envelope opening if he was assured TV cameras would be present.
2
These tourist helicopters have already destroyed the atmosphere around lower Manhattan. No such thing as a quiet walk around the tip of the Island anymore — ruined by deafening chopper noise. Now we learn about this added level of mayhem in the skies over the most densely populated place in the country: doors-off flights with built-in knives. After 9-11, how can the FAA let this go on? And why doesn’t the city ban all tourist copters from its airspace? All of the financial benefit goes to companies that are based in New Jersey. The copters don’t belong in Manhattan skies. If only di Blasio cared as much about the quality of life for folks living and working at Manhattan’s waterfront as he used to care about made up carriage horse problems
28
de Blasio? He's in Texas, has been for a week. You all voted for him and now you're stuck with him. How's that working for you all?
1
Why? - so the .01% can get their kicks at our expense. The people who lost their lives may have splurged on a treat to make themselves feel like the .01%. I have never understood why small aircraft are permitted at any altitude over NYC, especially since 9-11. Immediately after 9-11, I was horrified and terrified by helicopters and small planes overhead. Upon investigation I learned that it is entirely up to the FAA to decide. Then, there are the police joy-riding around above our heads, too. It is a disgrace. Noise pollution is a health hazard and interferes with children's ability to learn.
These horrific toys should no longer be allowed. We have enough photo-ops in our lives without being locked into our seats for a joy ride in a door-less flying machine after a casual explanation of its "safety" features. Tragic.
16
This is a sad moment. Much blame can be placed on the helicopter company. But then, we are in a period of DE-regulation. Then there is the absence of people in general making choices. Should we do dangerous things without asking questions and taking some responsibility for our own safety? Do we bungee jump without knowing the condition of the equipment? Do we skydive without having the knowledge to pack our own chutes? Do we drive faster than the recommended speed limit? Do we Jay-walk? Do we dive into shallow water? Do we play football?
Yes, it is sad when people die. Yes, there should be better safety laws. Remember who you vote for, and remember to make responsible choices for yourself.
75
Deregulation in a Democrat-run City? Never.
1
My condolences to the families of the victims. I can’t even begin to understand the depth of your losses.
Open door flights require safety measures, but why didn’t the harnesses have easily accessible emergency releases? Even if one of those aboard had a seatbelt cutter, it takes time and presence of mind to use it successfully, both are often lacking during extreme emergencies.
14
My thoughts and prayers go out to the families of the victims.
I agree with the statement that this kind of flights should not be allowed. I had wondered why there were no doors on the chopper in the picture but I had assumed they came off or were cut off by rescuers (I didn't watch the video, to much voyeurism for me, and the thumbnails of it were too small for me to see that it was an open-door chopper).
Now everything makes a lot more sense!
These harnesses of course _need_ to be latched on to the chopper and the passenger in a way that makes it _impossible_ that they come of by accident. How one of the straps ended up around the emergency fuel cut-off valve will remain a mystery to me however.
And concerning the floats: there is a video on Youtube about this exact model of chopper that shows that the floats don't open up (and inflate) all at once. In the pictures one can also see that some are inflated unevenly. Add to this the choppy waters of the East River and it becomes obvious why the chopper may have turned over, especially if the pilot was a bit late in hitting the emergency float button.
It would not have mattered that much if there were doors on the chopper and normal seat-belts. But this combination has probably never been tested, never been approved by the FAA and has proven deadly now. Ban all of these flights, they are extremely dangerous by their very nature!
5
I'd gauge liability by examining what training the two employees received and whether such was a proximate cause in their inability to escape the same tragic faith...
1
Helicopters accidents are quite frequent. They are much more dangerous than airplanes. Someone I know who pilots one said they require much more maintenance.
3
Lawsuits will resolve this issue. Were the helicopters properly inspected. Were the passengers told the risks. Insurance premiums will possibly increase. There should be criminal charges if the companies didn't follow the law. But in the end, people have the right to do dangerous things.
Quality of life should be the issue in helicopters around NYC.
3
As someone who worked in aviation litigation for over 20 years, I am amazed at the negligence of Liberty. Absolute, total and complete. How was it that the pilot did not try to help one passenger out of their harness? I would hope the families of the deceased make sure that this case makes it to court. My guess is that it will not. Liberty will pay what it has to and continue to operate somewhere else. My sincere condolences to the families for a tragedy that should never have happened.
8
It's my understanding that this is not the first water crash for this helicopter company. Why are the regulations so slack that an accident such as this can happen again or even happen in the first place? There is a real purpose for regulations. They are not put in place just to harass companies as some people may believe.
1
This is the typical "oh that can't happen" until it does. Anyone with the common sense of a housecat would see the danger of a doorless helicopter flying around a congested city with untrained tourists strapped in and only a little knife to escape that they never have used in any type of training scenario. How about the danger of unscreened passengers getting into the copter and trying to crash it into a building. Say that can't happen either huh? . That's one of the contributing factors to 9-11. The complacency.
13
If someone told me that I would have to cut my way out of a helicopter with a knife if there was an accident, I would reply - Do I look like I just fell off the turnip truck?
3
Either we can just not run helicopter tours around NYC, or we can occasionally have people injured and killed in helicopter crashes. There aren't any other options, as there is no way to fly helicopters all the time without having them crash now and then.
But the crash rate is pretty low, compared to car fatalities and such, so I'm sure we're going to keep the helicopters flying and just keep having these crashes. And every one will be called a great tragedy, and a week later everyone not directly affected will forget all about it, just like last time, this time, and next time.
2
Just like the gun violence we see almost every day. On the front page on Monday gone from the headlines on Wednesday.
First, we should ban helicopter flights for civilians, period. In a world of drones, we can get a birds eye view without the noise, pollution, and risk of manned helicopter flights. Particularly in NYC, the loud noises disturb millions for the joy of perhaps 5 people. If your meeting is so critical that you need to take a helicopter to get to it, just leave early and take a car. It's safer and more egalitarian to have to suffer through traffic with us "normal" folk.
On a separate note, however, people should be able to measure and take their own risks. We don't need the government stepping in whenever five people die to tell all of us we cannot do something or take some type of risk. Nothing is more un-American than the theory that nobody should ever be hurt doing anything.
6
JoJo, you ignore the fact that these things put others at risk as well. I'm think particularly of the first responders who had to dive into the icy water and were dragged 50 block down river by the current. It's really absurd to think you can get into an unsafe helicopter and expect be rescued by someone else's loved one if you crash. Cutting yourself might be a fine libertarian expression of individual rights, but dragging someone else to the bottom of the East river seems "un-American" to me.
6
As a prior MH65 Dolphin Helicopter flight mechanic in the U.S. Coast Guard, I was shocked to see the pictures of the harnesses that the passengers use. We trained for egressing helicopters every year, and the knife we used for cutting straps was a last resort. The buckle that releases our 6-point harness was quite easy to release and become free, even upside down. We also have a small oxygen bottle with 2 minutes of air in case the egress takes longer than it should. I am surprised too that the passengers fly over water with no survival suits. In our dunker training, Helicopter aircrew members are put in a box with seats similar to the shape of a Helicopter, strapped in, and then flipped upside down underwater, where we must egress 3 Times, once with goggles that blackout our vision. It is actually quite expected that the helicopter will flip in a water landing, as there is a lot of weight from the gearbox and engines on top. Training similar to this would have been very beneficial to the passengers, not to mention an easy to unbuckle harness, not the death trap harness they were using.
133
I absolutely agree. I have seen the Coast Guard rigs, straight forward, simple , and strong.
2
What has doors-off to do this accident? It seems the harness design and the proximity of the helicopter machineries are the real problem. In this case, it is the harness somehow shutting off the fuel switch, that means anyone can tamper with the copter. Doors-on or doors-off is irrelevant
1
Doors-off is relevant because it prompted the use of the additional harness secured to a carabiner from the rear. In an inverted helicopter, it's hard enough to release the standard harness. I have no idea how the supplemental harness is released.
With doors closed, a plane or helicopter may be able to stay afloat for a long enough period for people to free themselves and, possibly, rescue boats to get to them. This chopper sank very fast because of the open doors.
8
I assume, from reading the article, that a doors-on helicopter uses normal seat belts rather than strapping passengers in the way described for a doors-off flight. The five passengers died because they could not free themselves.
8
My recommendation for tourists in New York City: walk! Walking is much more interesting and you see much more. Besides you memorize seen things much better.
I still remember walking West on 51 Street East, passing St. Patrick's cathedral and coming left around the corner looking over Fifth Ave in the direction of the "Channels" of Rockefeller Plaza. Always a nice picture.
33
Or, for a fabulous view, go to One World Trade.
1
Excepting anyone to be able to exit an inverted aircraft under water and be able remove a normal seatbelt let alone a harness and then exit is unrealistic. That is a supervised air force training procedure. These flights should have extensive exit procedures. I doubt they had a clue on how to remove their restraining devices. And they knew that once that aircraft hit the water.
27
Agreed. These tours seem to rely on lax enforcement of rules or no rules at all.
Nobody should be allowed to fly in a helicopter who is not familiar with aircraft safety procedures. Putting yourself in danger is questionable but allowed. Putting everybody in the aircraft in danger because you don't know proper safety procedures is negligence bordering on murder. And this makes the pilot who is the "responsible person" in the situation most to blame for the tragedy. And should such tours even be legally allowed unless strictly regulated? Why is America so obsessed with the "right" to do stupid and dangerous stuff?
3
It was a slow "crash" (landing rather) so they knew it BEFORE they entered the water. . .
There's no way (except if I was being airlifted in an emergency) I would go willingly on a helicopter ride (or any small aircraft for that matter).
I still remember the tragic accident in NY that took the life of comedian/actress/traffic reporter Jane Dornacker. She had been in one previous helicopter accident but survived the first one, second not so lucky.
I feel sad for these young people who died in the prime of their lives--for nothing. I can't imagine any thrill being worth it to take the risk of being harnessed in order to have an open door (unobstructed view). They probably didn't take that into account (who thinks about a remote possible accident?), plus they were unprepared for any emergency.
It may have been a rumor, but I first heard the pilot blamed a passenger's "luggage" for bumping into some important button or copter part. I suspect the lawsuits have already been started on behalf of the families. It's a tragedy no family member should have to go through.
9
My condolences to the families.
As a firefighter, I find it sadly notable that a Dallas firefighter was among the dead. We deal with straps and harnesses as part of our job. The breathing apparatus we wear while fighting interior fires feature a network of straps. Beneath that, we often have a safety harness to latch into an ariel ladder. They are the tools of our trade. So is something else: most firefighters I know carry a seat belt cutter (mine is on a ring in the pocket of my gear along with a punch for a car window) and we are well-versed in using them. Even after a relatively gentle water landing; that the firefighter passenger lacked the situational awareness to cut himself free and perhaps save others -- is tragic and notable. When I have flown on doors-off Blackhawk flights with the US military, they use the standard 5-point harness, designed for quick exit with a quick turn of the core piece, even when wearing bulky gloves. I have every faith in the NTSB and the FAA to say with some confidence: we will see these harnesses outlawed in the coming months. Flying in a doors-off helicopter is not unsafe per se. In this case, it appears a device designed for safety may have had the opposite effect.
42
Unfortunately, the passengers were probably overcome with freezing cold water before they could try to cut themselves free. A regular civilian in an emergency is not like a Navy Seal trained to hold their breath for long periods while undergoing stressful situations underwater. This is so tragic. Gut-wrenching.
2
My condolences to the families and friends of the victims of this terrible accident. Unfortunately it’s highly unlikely that we’re going to see any stricter regulation of these tours, or anything else, under the current so-called administration.
24
nope this is the "anything and everything goes administration " also the :what are you going to do about it administration" it's really hard to go along with anything Trump when he insults my party and my beliefs every chance he gets, I really wish he'd knock it off and lead us all. He called democrats losers.. How can't I take offense to that? Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Bush 2, Obama,,, none were perfect but knew how to lead she WHOLE country. Not just one party.
1
I've been an avid rock climber for 14 years. The popularity of the sport has exploded over the last decade and a half. So too has the popularity of other sports that use harnesses: canyoneering, mountaineering, bungee-jumping, paragliding. This growth in popularity has brought advances in safety equipment, including a proliferation of different types and styles of harnesses based on the intended use, the build of the wearer, etc. This includes harnesses with quick-release mechanisms such as those worn by race car drivers and the riggers in sailboat racing.
There's no reason why doors-off helicopters, carrying untrained tourists, can't be equipped with a better type of harness than one you have to use a knife to cut yourself out of in an emergency. That's ridiculous and, I suspect, the result of cutting corners to save money plus a cavalier attitude toward the potential risks/dangers.
52
It's ridiculous that these were doors-off helicopters. There's no good reason to stick one's legs out of a helicopter (if you want a thrill ride, go to an amusement park) and a small opening in a window can be provided to stick a camera lens through, although I got perfectly good photos shooting through the glass on a helicopter ride in Hawaii (with doors).
The harness system is ridiculous. Who can cut through straps while in icy water and possibly upside down and panicked? I sure couldn't.
37
These five unfortunate people perished because of the helicopter tour operator's greed and total disregard to the safety and well being of their passengers. I am upset and cannot begin to imagine the horror these five people experienced as the last moments of their lives. I imagine lawyers will have a field day with this company. You can have a passenger sign all the releases you want, but the release does not mean you can operate in a careless manner. Tethering civilians by their back to a helicopter after they have received a questionable safety briefing is reckless, careless and shows zero regard to human life.
188
Condolences to all. As anyone who played in pool or bathtub might know, why not place the float near the rotor so the helo self rights -in case a still water landing is not possible?
1
The Navy has extensive training program on escaping from a downed helicopter which has crashed in water. Part of the training involves simulation includes the helicopter simulator sinking upside down. I have been involved in not only teaching this training but having gone through it myself. And I can tell you that even if in a specially designed simulator, in a special pool with safety divers around, it is a heart pounding experience which you are glad to be done with. But it has successfully prepared aircrew occupants of Navy and Marine Corps helicopters to safely egress, in less than genteel crash conditions than this sightseeing helicopter went down. And the training is hours longer than this tour company's 10 minute brief, & you go through several runs, seated in different parts of the helicopter simulator, including the final heart pounding run, where you must put on darkened goggles, and plan your escape by just knowing and feeling your escape route. Although you may have one on you, you have an easy to toggle out of harness, no knife required. If the news report of a 10 minute video preparation is correct- and the requirement to have to use a knife to cut yourself free also true, I would say without hesitation, that this is criminal & was a fatal accident waiting to happen, as it just did. The company can never replace these precious lives, but the owners should pay for the rest of their lives for the suffering of these 5 soles' families.
86
Where's the FAA? Flight tours, without doors, for civilians, seemed like a good idea?
Even the Marines give you doors, or good low-bid GSA-approved harnesses.
20
Sorry, MV-22 Ospreys routinely fly with the back ramp open. Marines do fall out.
1
How sad and how negligent. Latched in from behind, they were unable to free themselves. And all for another identical selfie to post on Instagram of their feet hanging out of the side of the helicopter. What a waste of young lives.
https://www.google.com/search?q=flynyon&rlz=1CAZZAF_enUS769US769&...
17
What a horrible way to die. How can strapping people in like that be legal?
13
The passengers probably had no idea what was happening. One moment a daring copter ride. The next trouble, with possible safe landing on the inflatable base? Should they unbuckle? Is it time to get the knife? Everything happens too fast. By the time the copter hits the water and flips it is already too late. Upside down and underwater no one can find a knife and cut yourself out. These things need auto-releases, and even then it is tough.
21
I went to high school with Tristan in Reno, Nevada, where we’re both from. We have many mutual friends to this day. His sudden and tragic passing was a shock to hear about this morning for so many who knew and loved him. He was a loving and kind individual, as I’m sure the others were, as well. I am so saddened to hear this news.
51
I’m really sorry.
14
Shocking and heartbreaking. My sympathies to you on the loss of your fruebd.
1
The calls for banning tourist helicopter flights are ridiculous. As far as I know, this is the first significant accident involving a "doors off" flight, and while there have been incidents involving other tourist flights, fatalities are extremely rare. The safety record of Liberty Helicopters is somewhat troubling, and the companies that offer "doors off" flights should probably look at other options for securing passengers that would enable a quicker release, but statistically, you're safer on one of these flights than you are in your own automobile.
Imagine if we saw endless news coverage of each and every car accident involving fatalities; the same poorly informed people who are screaming for these flights to be banned would probably want cars to be banned as well.
8
Statistics won’t lessen the pain the victims’ families will endure.
2
Nice selfish 'me' response. These flights should be banned on the basis of noise pollution alone. You want a challenge? Climb to the top of the Statue of Liberty.
3
first, I doubt your statistics that somebody is safer in one of these helicopters than in their own cars —did you make that up or do you really have reliable statistics proving your point?
second, tourist helicopter flights should be banned in new york (personally I would also ban them everywhere else) because it’s a parasitic industry, which adds nothing of value to the city, and tortures residents in both new york and new jersey with incessant useless noise. and, as we have now seen, it puts their customers in deadly danger too.
i lived in new york 13 years, and experienced the change —central park, for example, went from being an oasis of silence in the middle of the city, to an almost-war-zone sometimes, with helicopters hovering above incessantly. riverside park, on the west side of manhattan, is even worse.
1
I lived in Battery Park City for 10 years. The Hudson River Helicopter tours and their attendant roars were akin to having 18-wheelers driving through the skies. Thousands of New Yorkers basking along the banks of the Hudson enduring this racket for the sake of a few tourists willing to pay big bucks for an Instagram moment, and a handful of helicopter operators raking in the profits.
I hope the safety issues grounds all such tours, even though the quality of life compromises endured by these tours affects far, far more people. That said, the loss of 5 lives is very tragic.
57
"akin to having 18-wheelers driving through the skies" -- are you aware that 18-wheelers regularly drive through most NYC streets, along with buses, ambulances, garbage trucks, etc?
Main parachutes, as used by skydivers, must be able to be 'cut away', jettisoned, at a moments notice. To cut away a malfunctioning main canopy, takes much less than one second. And yet,, the connection is strong enough to withstand the many G's of opening force. The most common is called a 'three ring circus'. It is a masterful example of utter simplicity and reliability.
That people were tied into a helicopter, such that only a knife could free them, or that the 'carabiner' was inaccessible behind them,,, ground all flights instantly. None should fly with that system, at all, or ever ever again.
With so simple and effective a device as is the skydiver's shoulder connection, utterly secure and takes less than a second to release, I fail to see why any other lesser system has been, or was, or is in use.
In this case, I'd say prosecute. What happened,, if reported accurately,, is just plain stupid and criminal. The skydiver's three ring circus has been in use for 50 years, there can be no excuse other than criminal ignorance or stupidity.
And air bags under a helicopter? What 'genius' came up with that bit of stupidity. Of course it floated upside down. Any builder of row boats or canoes could have predicted that one. Land 50 helicopters in an emergency descent on those air bags and 49 will finish upside down.
Ground all of them.
155
Though, it also has to be a system which no passenger could accidentally release.
As for the air bags, how were they tested? Would appear to be far below center of mass leaving a helicopter likely to flip over. Were they ever tested on anything other than a still water lake?
1
I have been in a helicopter that made a water landing. If the pontoons (“air bags”) were in working order, and both of them inflated similarly and correctly, the copter wouldn’t have fallen on its side after it touched the water.
This is just heartbreaking.
6
Deanalfred of MI raises a good point. I don't know anything about the seat-belt system in a Eurocopter. I did skydive for over ten years and have over a thousand jumps (including jumps from helicopters). The cutaway system on a sport skydiving rig is a three-ring system (not "circus", which may have been a typo). If the main canopy fouls, one cuts away a partially deployed main canopy by pulling on one handle on the right-hand inside of the harness. Pulling this handle (held in place by velcro) in turn pulls kevlar lines out of what look like shoe string loops holding down the top of a small ring which sits at the top of the three rings, which frees such top small ring to go through the slightly bigger middle ring, and then the middle ring goes through the bigger bottom ring attached to the harness--and the main canopy is released. There is probably a YouTube demonstration.
To the layman, the three-ring system doesn't look sufficiently robust to hold the main canopy to the harness, but it is. The patent on the three-ring system expired long ago, and it could be adapted to release multi-point harness belts under tension by means of a single pull of one handle. It will be tragic if the other individuals in the helicopter drowned because they couldn't get out of their harnesses. But people drown strapped into their cars all the time, and/or because they can't break the glass windows of the car.
5
Does this mean usual passenger seatbelts in airplanes are not reliable? Is it because they can be unlocked by passengers themselves?
4
Seat belts on planes primarily protect passengers from injury during; seat belts aren’t going to save anyone if the plane crashes.
3
Yes
1
My guess is that these others were used because it was a "doors off" flight.
2
So this was one out of how many flight with how many companies ?
There is more risk driving your own car or walking across a busy New York intersection.
1
It makes NO SENSE to allow these aircraft to fly over Manhattan. Too many updrafts, downdrafts, windshear, etc. with all those tall buildings jammed together. Stop it now!
BTW- I don't live in Manhattan anymore, and don't have a dog in this fight.
35
I saw the video as well as the pictures in this article. The cabin of the helicopter is intact, the landing wasn't too hard. Even the fact that it flipped upside down wouldn't alone be fatal. But it was those harnesses. I can't even imagine the realization right before the serious panic begins when you realize that you're inescapably tied to the sinking craft...
48
It still might have been fatal even if they could escape from their harnesses - they're civilians, they're not expert in climbing out of an underwater helicopter. Underwater you may not know which direction is up, and which is down. The water is very cold, hypothermia sets in very rapidly.
14
You have 10 minutes before hypothermia. The divers said they could have rescued everybody if not for the harnesses.
1
I cannot believe this.
First, my heart goes out to these victims. God bless their families. And I hope they do not hold this pilot for punishment. He could have been another "miracle on Hudson".
In the oil industry, where I worked for 45 years - choppers are the backbone of moving folks around. I have flown in choppers all over the world.
But the first thing we do is put folks through chopper crash landings.
In Aberdeen at Robert Gordon Institute, we even recreate North sea conditions with rains, winds, waves in swimming pool etc. We are made to sit in a chopper module, it's lowered into water and then unhooked. It rotates like this one did. And we are supposed to escape. Of course, we all do.
But first thing, once dunked in water, we grasp the harness clasp, ready to undo it. And then follow established procedures to evacuate either through blown out windows or an open door.
But hand on the harness clasp is repeatedly stressed.
Of course, tourists cannot go through such training.
But it's beyond comprehension that a harness requires to be cut by a knife in an emergency.
Even with my global experience, I would find it terrifying to do in an emergency. Sure, these adventure trips are one of those selfie trips for Instagram - but for regulators NOT to have considered its implication is mind boggling and worse, a deleriction of duty.
And for heavens sake, let's not have a knee jerk reaction and close down this business - putting innocents out of a job.
12
I was with you until the last sentence. Human lives have to come before job security! This is a leisure industry - no one needs to go up in one of these tourist helicopters. And if they're killing people on a regular basis, which they clearly are, shut down tourist helicopters.
18
Putting innocents out of a job???
Seriously. The pilots who take responsibility to transport folks in such unsafe conditions are not innocents. And the handful of people on the ground can find something else.
To me this is manslaughter.
5
There are WAY too many helicopter flights in NYC. Most are either carrying tourist sightseers, or taking the 0.1% to the airports.
Both are unnecessary.
Helicopters burn an unbelievable amount of fuel. Try pushing a Toyota Camry sedan a quarter mile on level ground. Two able-bodied people can do it. Now try lifting up and carrying the car 1/4 mile -- 15 people couldn't do it even if the car had handles.
Live or work along the East River? The constant roar of choppers is so bad you'll have to keep your windows closed.
And Wall St and corporate bigshots shouldn't be given an easy way around NYC's decrepit roads and infrastructure. Force them to use it like everyone else, and maybe it might actually get improved.
Finally, there's the lousy safety record. Do we have to wait until one crashes into an office building, school, or other crowded place?
Ban the choppers!
91
Tragic and likely preventable. You do not have to be an engineer to see that the inflatable floats, if those are the yellow bags in the photo, are attached much too far below the center of gravity to be of any use except for simultaneous inflation over calm water. The craft is guaranteed to invert, and the history seems to show that they do. Harnesses are another story - preventing one hazard by adding another. Sadly, innovation can be extremely slow in the properly cautious aviation world.
21
I think the Circle Line ferries will see a surge in sightseers.
I'm a white-knuckled flyer fan of the air crash analysis videos on youtube. It's unfortunate that mistakes by aircraft manufacturers, airlines, maintenance and flying crews, so obvious in retrospect, have killed thousands of people over the years, but the discoveries and recommendations/mandated changes from those crash investigations have made flying safer multiple times.
I think of the cargo doors that used to blow off DC-9;, leaving small amounts of fuel in empty tanks (TWA Flight 100); and the weak, inadequate wheels Concordes used before the Paris crash.
Let's hope all chopper flights become safer after this investigation is done. As I said, many crash reasons were stunningly obvious in retrospect, and it sure looks like quick release safety harnesses were something a five-year-old would have recommended. I imagine companies would hit the quick release in route and fly out open door. Gotta be a way around that.
3
I think you mean TWA Flight 800.
2
I think you meant cargo doors coming off DC-10's , not DC-9's .
and I don't know what you mean by "weak, inadequate wheels" on the Concorde. that was not the issue in the Paris crash.
2
I would like to refer the NY Times to the 2010 NSTB Safety Recommendation A-10-129-130 regarding the vulnerability of the AS350 to inadvertent movement of the Fuel Flow Control Lever (and associated Emergency Fuel Cut-off Lever) by passengers and luggage. This was a known issue that causes a fatal crash in 2008 and a number of non-fatal crashes and incidents. The NTSB made recommendations to the FAA to require a design modification. As far as I know, the FAA never issued an Airworthiness Directive mandating those modifications. From the pilot's remarks today, I suspect this aircraft might have had those design vulnerabilities.
The pdf A-10-129-130 is available on the NTSB website (cannot post links here).
42
This comment should be a NYT Picks!
For those suggesting quick release devices, remember an inadvertent maneuver with a poorly designed harness might release a passenger when there's no emergency. Any restraining device should be heavily tested, regulated by suitable experts, and the passengers fully informed with opportunity to practice before takeoff. Also, those at the top of these companies need to have personal and perhaps criminal liability in the event of an accident.
11
My neighbor is a veteran search and rescue pilot. He recently told me he had to do his periodic "dunk" training, to practice exiting from a submerging, inverted helicopter. He said that even after all these years it is a nerve-racking, sometimes harrowing experience. The practice, simulated in a specially equipped pool, is deemed so risky that it is closely supervised by divers underwater who will intervene if the trainee cannot free him/herself.
That's the degree of caution taken in a professional working environment. What chance would untrained sightseeing passengers have?
217
Remember that scene from "An Officer and a Gentleman"?
6
I fly hang gliders a lot of the time along costal dune type sites and the thought of a water landing is downright frightening and I'm an excellent swimmer in good shape. I too have a knife and have thought many times how would I use it and how to stay calm and not panic while I cut myself free while trapped under the Hang glider while under water. These poor people did not have a chance.
As a professional photographer with an emergency response agency who has flown many times tethered in with the door open I’m stunned by the details of this tragedy. Tethering non-professional tourists into a helicopter flying over a body of water with the doors off and no safety personnel or active system in position or place to effect an emergency egress is outrageous. Can you imagine the American flying public tethered into their airline seats helpless to extricate themselves in even the most basic emergency? What a colossal safety and common sense failure both by the company and those with oversight responsibilities.
126
Utterly tragic.
God help the devastated families left behind, and all the first responders.
24
Another instance when "thoughts and prayers" don't work.
32
I cringe when I read stories like this , they had no chance , so many errors . I regularly take helo trips offshore , to be able to fly in a helo offshore in Uk you most prove competency in exposing from upturned helo at night , which is practiced in a dunker , ( swimming pool with helo can that is dropped into water and diverted upside down in darkness , you have to release your harness and find nearest escape , I can tell u many people that come to refresh every 4 years find it challenging . we also wear immersion suits and life jackets ( manual inflation ) after exit , also we have EBS a emergency breathing bottle with a minute or 2 of air to aid escape . I just cannot believe there tour companies have little regard for there customers ! , were they really carabinered in ! , they had no chance .
48
July 2007: a sightseeing helicopter makes an emergency landing in the Hudson River after its engine malfunctions
August 2009: a sightseeing helicopter collides with a private plane over the Hudson River, killing a total of nine people
October 2011: a helicopter crashes into the East River, killing two and injuring four others.
Perhaps most infamously, in June 2005 there were two helicopter crashes in just four days on the East River, in which a total of 14 people were injured.
The City has continually refused to disclose the exact dollar amount that these sightseeing tours add to City revenues (suggesting that it is smaller than supposed), and the PTSD-inducing noise created by them is also an issue. But safety is primary.
There are already any number of “legitimate” copters flying around: NYPD, news, weather, even commuter flights from heliports to NYC-area airports. Adding a tourist flight every 4 minutes, 9 hours per day, 7 days per week is simply a recipe for disaster.
As a related aside, it is beyond outrageous that, despite the events of 9/11, there is still no regulation of the airspace below 1,000 feet above New York City skies. Will it take the crashing of a helicopter onto Manhattan streets, possibly killing both passengers and pedestrians, to get the City to end this unnecessary danger?
76
harnesses are typical on helicopter flights with open doors, but common sense says to put the quick release mechanism in front at the waist so a quick escape is possible. what is surprising is that the passengers were still strapped in. the multipoint harnesses should have been release as soon as the helo went inverted.
8
Wait, five passengers were killed when a helicopter without doors splashed into the East River.
How did they get in if there were no doors?
4
no closing doors
2
Having no doors in this instance means that they removed the side doors so that these photographers could lean out and take pictures. Otherwise, if they were flying from point a to point b in the city on a normal flight...they would have the side doors on for comfort...
One thing I have not seen mentioned here...having the doors off makes the aircraft "dirty" in terms of its ability to fly...an already fully loaded helo with the doors OFF has a harder time maintaining flight than a fully-loaded one with doors ON.
9
I can’t believe people even answered you. Smh.
6
having the doors open is probably the safest thing. imagine trying to get those doors open with the helo inverted and sinking. also if the airframe is at all bent the doors might be jammed. so a better harness system and some flotation for the helicopter to keep it upright on the surface are a better safeguard.
4
Those poor people. I'm so sorry for their families and friends. What an awful way to go.
39
The is what removing "Regulations" looks like
146
Many regulations result from lessons learned by the loss of life and injuries and are designed to reduce the chance of future deaths and injuries. Business hates these regulations and the cost they impose because they care more about their profits than the lives of people both customers and workers. Sadly, many people get sucked in by business propaganda and support politicians, almost always Republicans, who want to cut "expensive" regulations. Talk about dupes!
27
Why didn't this company care enough about customer safety to proactively prevent this situation? I see this as yet another example of a complete breakdown of ethics in the bu$iness culture of this country. Only government can force some sort of proper behavior with regulation--and enforcement of that regulation.
24
How in the world could they harness these kids in with no way of escape? Horrifying. I can't imagine their end was pleasant. As scary as it was in there, it would have been charitable of the pilot to hang around long enough to unhook them.
In addition, to all the people commenting here about how the noise bothers you, maybe save that for another time and forum. This is a tragedy.
51
All 5 passengers drowned and the experienced pilot lived? That pilot had an absolute obligation to unharness those people and did not get even one out? Investigate manslaughter charges.
38
Well—“experienced pilot” does not mean superhuman. It sounds to me like he was quite fortunate just to get himself free from an inverted cabin under icy waters.
14
I have to speak up for the pilot, that he brought his ship in without power into the river safely was his expertise. I can't bring judgement on what he did in the water afterwards but I'm sure he would have saved everyone if he could. This crash, complete with "what ifs", will be haunting him for the rest of his life.
25
Yeah - you have gross misconceptions of what pilots do for a living.
5
Five people died a horrible death, and all some people can comment on is helicopter noise pollution and headaches from the overhead assault?
Empathy, anyone?
39
I know - I am absolutely appalled by those comments.
3
How many tour helicopters have crashed in NYC, the Grand Canyon and in Hawaii. I would never take a helicopter tour as they appear to fall out of the sky on a regular basis. Why take the risk, there are so many other great ways to enjoy NYC, the Grand Canyon or Hawaii than in a noisy, death prone vehicle.
40
Safe and rational experiences in those situations are much less Instagrammable.
2
Helicopter 'flight-seeing' is a horrendous environmental burden on citizens and visitors alike...and has now led, again, to this terrible loss of life.
These anti-civic vehicles thunder up and down our waterways almost unceasingly in clement weather, making a visit to Governors Island or the Statue of Liberty into a live-action scene from Apocalypse Now...all that's missing is the Wagner soundtrack blaring from on high.
Those of us enjoying the splendor of our revivified waterfronts are subjected to unending, soul-destroying noise and pollution for the ephemeral delight of a tiny handful of visitors who can afford the ticket to ride...whilst employing a minuscule proportion of workers involved in the tourism trade.
These aircraft are an egregious assault on all who live, work and breath in all that is New York City...and should be brought to an immediate end.
Save lives, save our sanity.
35
This is my second post. In the first, I concluded by writing that beside being a wasteful and dangerous activity, imagine if a crafts was boarded by bad people with bad intentions.
Now that the helicopter companies have shared the fact sharp knives are provided "to cut through harnesses," they might as well make even more money by discarding their metal detectors, since all necessary terrorist weaponry will be provided at no extra cost.
15
Maybe a quick release seat belt is not a good idea when flying with no doors? It might accidentally be unfastened. If it were a movie shoot, the camera operator would be rigged safely into the seat with an assistant watching out. That's how you shoot out of a helicopter with no doors. Amateurs are running the world now.
19
Hearing of the safety protocols (or lack thereof) on this flight reminds me of an experience I had on the ferry boat that goes from somewhere near the FDR in the 30s or so, and takes passengers to Sandy Hook beach in NJ.
The one time I took that ferry boat, it was packed. One of the first things I do when I get on a boat is to understand where the lifejackets are located. When this boat disembarked, I realized that they'd made NO announcement about where the lifejackets were. So I found an employee and asked 'can you tell me where the lifejackets are located?' The guy said 'um yeah, they are up on the front end of the boat in a white box.'
So I go up to the front of the boat and....I wasn't seeing any lifejackets readily visible. So I asked another employee standing nearby. I said 'yeah, where's the box that has the lifejackets?' The employee pointed to a white box directly ahead.
Well I SAW that white box he was pointing to.. Not only did the completely enclosed box have a PADLOCK on it but....there were about 20 bicycles piled up against the side of that same box. Wowie. You talk about a tragedy waiting to happen?! Once I returned home from this trip, I reported what I'd seen...I think it was to the Port Authority...and I also noted what I'd observed in a Yelp review. Sadly however, I suspect nothing was done...no changes in safety protocol made...
77
Yeah, I've seen this more than once elsewhere also. Guess they do not want the life jackets stolen???? Truly a tragedy waiting to happen.
7
Helicopter tourism should simply be banned. It's noise, it's dangerous, and we the tax-payers have to bear the brunt of the costs while those who run these business reap profits and face few penalties. My sympathies to the victims families.Maybe another business model can be in place, something like rent a drone with a camera, you get to keep the flight files and you can post. A kind of virtual aerial experience without the noise, the smell, and the danger. New York City isn't the grand canyon....
23
I think they're called rotors, not propellers. No?
1
I think the article refers to the BOAT'S propellers a few times...that is the appropriate term. But yes...you are correct...a helo has rotors.
2
They were referring to the boat propellers.
4
The propellers are on the tugboat. I had to read it a few times to understand, too. The tugboat had somehow secured the helicopter and kept it from sinking to the bottom of the river, but the rescue divers could not get near the helicopter while the tugboat propellers were still operating. They asked the tugboat crew to cut the boat's propellers in hopes of being able to approach the helicopter and reach the victims.
While this helicopter went into the river, others fly over apartment buildings and sidewalks packe with people. My sympathies go out to the victims of the crash but their decision to board the aircraft included an acceptance of a certain amount of risk, neither I nor others on the ground should have to pay for the profits these companies amass by shouldering a similar risk. Helicopters shoukd be banned except for emergencies over residential areas.
34
This is going to happen again unless NYC bans single-engine helicopter flights around Manhattan. They are currently flying over water and densely populated areas with absolute faith placed in a single engine. The contingency for engine failure for revenue flights around the city cannot be autorotation into water (or structures). That is often a deadly outcome. We must require the redundancy of a second engine.
There are light twin-engine helicopters available to these operators. Eurocopter offers the AS355, a twin-engine variant of the AS350 involved in this crash. Bell Helicopter designed and produced a twin engine variant of the 206/406 model commonly used for these flights but discontinued it due to low demand however a company called Tridair Helicopters continues to produces a twin-engine variant. If regulators required a twin-engine version for air tourism, that would create the demand and manufacturers would have reason to produce it. Make that the law and the industry will provide.
19
The AS355 has been discontinued in production. The closest thing is an EC135
3
I live in the Upper Ditmars section of Astoria, and in the summertime when I leave my windows open, often hear helicopters that sound like they are originating somewhere in the vicinity of LGA airport. I too find them very irritating to have to listen to, as they travel not that far over our homes in Upper Ditmars.
7
You live next to an airport, what do you expect to hear?
10
Lisa - did you actually read the article and follow the discussion here? You've been inconvenienced, but the thread is about preventing fatal air crashed.
17
Maybe birds chirping.
Any time you try to take away merchants' money - no matter how dangerous a business they run - you can expect a screaming, whining diatribe plus political payoffs akin to trying to strip an AR-15 from " former NRA president Charlton Heston's cold, dead hands."
22
Sight-seeing helicopters in NYC:
2009: 9 fatalities
2011: 1 fatality
2018: 5 fatalities (to date, and totally preventable in this case)
As much as I love aviation and trust the industry, it's perhaps time for the FAA to review the regulations on pilot training, airspace control, and passenger egress training for these types of flights.
While still much safer than automobiles (and apparently even trains these days) they don't enjoy the safety level of the airlines, which are heavily regulated.
New Yorkers (even tourists!) deserve it. My heart goes out to those families. This was a preventable tragedy.
19
In 2011 there were 3 fatalities, all from the same crash (one person died on scene, two others died in the following weeks at Bellevue).
8
Regulations! Heck, no! This here's America, and we got Freedoms!
(sorry, my best impression of anti-government blather)
2
For many of who live in the path of these noisy helicopters that passed by every 3 to 4 minutes knew that this was an accident waiting to happen
17
I frequently travel to remote areas which require private fixed wing and helicopter travel.
I advise the company handling the flights in advance that before I board any aircraft I want to see the maintenance logs of that particular aircraft and discuss with the pilot his experience (# of hours for that particular aircraft) and his assessment of the maintenance logs. If they give me any lip I tell them I will take my business elsewhere.
Several times I after examining logs and discussions with pilots I have cancelled the flight both here in the US and in South America due to missing or incomplete information, hesitation or lack of knowledge on the pilots part.
It is up to each and everyone to be an educated consumer. Ask the charter company what type of aircraft they will be flying when making the reservations and do some research based on # of hours flown & maintenance requirements
It may sound complicated but it really is not to bad...besides your life may depend on it.
29
His or her experience and assessment! Women can be pilots.
6
Sounds like you are recommending caveat emptor (let the buyer beware). Safety of air passengers needs to be overseen by an independent agency representing the consumer, known as the government. Passengers should not have to become familiar with the highly technical maintenance records of a commercial aircraft. In this age when a large segment of our elected representatives has made "regulation" a bad word, this is what you get.
32
That’s good but these were tourists who might not have understood the importance of what you said.
6
Do no do not sell,a helicopter to anyone under 21. Next, ban all helicopters. Who’s really NEEDS a helicopter?
8
Why is anybody but first-responders in low-flying aircraft around NYC? Are you supposedly smart urban dwellers crazy???
17
Because the FAA says Ok (it has exclusive airspace jurisdiction), and because NYC elected officials won't push back against it.
11
I see no urban dwellers endorsing these flights. We want safer skies. For our law enforcement, first responders, and even photographers. Sounds like professionals who fly, including photographers, think safety was not close to being sufficient here.
1
biking on the hudson greenway, many times I have been hit in the face with water from a helicopter landing right by the greenway & 30th st.
if that doesn't say "too close" I don't know what does.
22
I visited Governor’s Island last summer, and the island is a great resource for the city, but at about 2:30 pm he three of us together looked at each other, realizing that for the first time in three hours, the sound of a helicopter was not spoiling our visit. As a frequent visitor to NYC I think on balance the helicopters hurt the visitor experience. It is an experience for 0.001% of the visitors that harms the experience of the balance of visitors and all of the residents.
And on the safety issue, in the oil industry in the Gulf of Mexico folks who are going to fly in choppers do onshore training where the replica chopper is immersed in water, inverted, and the trainee must escape to be certified.
I have ridden a helicopter from Newark to LaGuardia and it was a great time saver. But the doors were on and the flight was at safe altitudes and directly flown.
24
I hate to say this, but this was inevitable. Many of us who live along manhattans river fronts, or even worse near helipads, have had to endure and bear witness to the increase of helicopter traffic and its deafening assault on our senses. The bottom line in helitours is greed. Unfettered greed coupled with a grossly under regulated industry. Tax payers and residences on the ground have to pay the price of the ongoing air and noise pollution, and naive and trusting passengers in situations like this, pay a mortal one. The FAA has pushed these noise monsters to fly over water, and outside that the industry is pretty much left to monitor itself. Those of us who have tried to speak up, along with advocacy groups such as Stop the ChopNYNJ, have faced stonewalling and an deep unwillingness for the city to change things. All because of money.
71
I agree with your assessment. However, it could be argued, living in NYC itself might be a form of greed.
As a veteran aerial cinematographer, no pilot EVER ALLOWED me to harness myself, even as I hung outside with centrifugal forces pulling me away. YOU CAN walk away from a crash, but harnesses make it impossible. A larger discussion needs to happen:
• This is Liberty’s 3rd disaster. On Aug. 8, 2009, Liberty's craft collided with a plane over the Hudson, killing 9. Investigators determined the helicopter was flying too high.
• On July 7, 2007, Liberty's chopper carrying 8 dropped 500 feet into the Hudson, but an off-duty EMT aboard the craft helped everyone escape.
How has Liberty stayed in business? Who implements safety regulations? The pilot said someone hit the fuel cut-off switch with a piece of gear. Really? From Liberty's website: "With the exception of cameras, there are no personal belongings permitted on the helicopter. Lighters, keys, hand bags, knapsacks, makeup and any other personal belongings are not permitted on board the helicopter." If the cut-off switch's easy access is the line between life and death, then the craft's manufacturers are in for legal action, too.
Let’s be clear: Liberty is a NJ company. You pay huge amounts of money for mid-air thrills, annoying City residents with noise, polluting air, and putting lives at risk. This activity is frivolous, and also demonstrates how vulnerable our City is if one of these crafts were boarded by people with bad intentions.
With deep sadness, my heart goes out to the families, and the 1st responders.
249
Liberty got their money from these now-dead customers. Now they will spin their "concern" about what happened.
4
I recall there was recently another sight-seeing helicopter crash a month or two ago out in the Grand Canyon.
15
The notion that companies are allowed to fly open-door rides with people who simply don't have the training to react in an emergency situation is the thing that's wrong here. If the only way for these sightseeing/photography tour companies to make money is flying these risky trips, they should be shut down.
A harness system with a quick-release system is just trading one problem for another. How long do you think it would be before someone released the harness to get "just a little closer" and tumbled right out the door? A day? Maybe a week?
45
A great tragedy. A waste of young lives. A lifetime of sorrow for their families and friends. When is NYC going to properly regulate and license these helicopter companies, if not ban them outright altogether?
45
So sad for the people who died. I flew on that same helicopter a month ago, same license.... can’t believe it!
9
Does anyone really think safety will win out over greed? The only time I remember these flights along the Hudson being banned was after 9/11. And even a terrorist attack did not stop these companies for long.
22
The helicopter tours in NYC should be band because there are to many risk factors involved in a crowded city. How many more lives have to be lost in tragic accidents.
26
As a military aviator we were constantly trained for the worst case and this situation fails the giggle test by any imagination. Every restraint is quick release except cargo and still people die. Imagine the panic of the engine going quiet, hearing the pilot call "may day", suddenly auto-rotating down into the obviously cold water, then the shock of hitting the water, starting to sink, then flipping over upside down and all around going dark and disorienting. A knife to cut the harness...what knife? where? how?...are you kidding? I expect the company is doomed and rightly so.
319
I am not sure why you would call military harnesses quick release - you have to rotate and punch the release and then extract yourself from the harness around your legs and your upper torso.
This is why you train with a Dilbert Dunker so that you don't drown trying to do a reasonably complex maneuver.
I would not expect any untrained person could extract themselves from any 3-point harness system without practice.
9
Agree completely - as a fellow military aviator and ATP rated helicopter pilot and flight instructor. We were trained repeatedly for dynamic egress in a ditching helicopter - it tales training and skill. The young pilot in command of this aircraft was also making $20 per hour and was working his way up as a professional pilot in a fairly entry level job. Just doesn't add up given the risks.
1
I just don't understand why he chose to put it down in the drink when he could have put it down in the park. One gives the passengers a chance, the other doesn't. Then again, as a pilot myself (fixed wing), I do realize that these decisions are much easier to make in front of my computer.
This is why I never wear a seat-belt, on planes, cars, amusement park rides, you name it. It's better to ride free and be able to get out, than to be trapped in one of these death machines should things go wrong.
Maybe this horrific incident will be the straw that breaks the camels back, and will catalyze some healthy skepticism towards our draconian and idiotic seat-belt laws, which mainly exist to help the police wage a non-stop war of revenue collection against people with common sense and a sense of liberty. Like vaccines, seat-belts are one of societies' cruelest tricks. But like with vaccines, it will take horrific accidents like this to get people thinking clearly on the matter.
1
You've taken it to the idiotic extreme. It's like saying "don't ever take aspirin because you may one day bleed to death, don't get a vaccine because you may get autism, don't wear a seatbelt because you may one day end up in the river.
19
seat belts are not harnesses!! (surely they save lives)
13
I get your point, but when I worked for an auto manufacturer, we worked our tails off ensuring passenger safety inside the car, since that's the only environment we could control. Outside lies danger - traffic, concrete abutments, sudden drops.
The seatbelt arrangement sounds completely foolish and counterproductive.
6
So the harnesses, in effect, killed the passengers. That was my gut feel before even reading this article. I have a son their age. My heart breaks for the families. I offer my deepest condolences. These were cruel and needless deaths. I hope they sue despite any waivers that were signed.
25
I've flown that particular flight last November with FlyNYON and I can tell you that you are not allowed anything on board but your camera and the camera is thethered to your harness (you're not even allowed lens hoods or caps). If anything maybe someone's strap caused this but not a bag (unless rules were bent). Real tragedy.
8
I look at the pictures of these young sons and daughters - and my heart goes out their parents,their brothers and sisters and loved ones - surely we can discuss the liabilities and lawsuits later. Now is the time to bless their souls. This is so very sad. And, the pilot is also very young and will have to bear this tremendous burden for the rest of his life.
9
Good Lord, I remember when they were taking off and landing atop the (then) Pan Am Building. Until the day of the horrific 1977 crash. Helicopters, like guns, should be for police and military only.
31
When the pilot survives, and the passengers die, lawsuits can’t be far behind...
19
The pilot knows the equipment better, its not a mark of failure that he survived.
24
In virtually all the copter crashes in NYC (the notable exception being the 2009 crash in the Hudson involving a copter and a small plane) the pilots have survived. I assume that is because they have more experience and truly know what to do do in an emergency, unlike the passengers, who have just had a quick safety video that they probably didn't pay any attention to.
15
They should be required to have a better harness system with a quick release system. Helicopters are top heavy because of the engine's location. They should have pontoon landing gear instead of skids. I hope the NTA or NYC institutes some revised safety standards because of these deaths.
13
Boarding any aircraft with NO doors and being secured in one's seat with some kind of harness which can only be freed if cut with a knife in case of an emergency evacuation defies logic and all safety regulations. I am truly mystified how these sight seeing companies continue to operate with such blatant disregard for the safety of it's passengers. Forget the waiver - that is very cold comfort, if any comfort at all, to the loved ones of the five deceased passengers.
308
Just wait to see the subpoena of emails and txts in court as to why NYONAIR decided to go with harnesses without a quick release mechanism. THAT should make for an interesting hearing!
14
Sightseeing tours in helicopters should be banned not only in Manhattan, but nation wide. For a few people to enjoy the view so the rest below can be harassed by the noise pollution created by copters is unfair.
I am not sure how much noise they contribute to Manhattan's deafening roar, but those things really destroy the serenity of places like Arizona's Grand Canyon and parks in Hawaii.
Let them take hot air balloons if an overhead view is so exhilarating. I find the view from the ESB to be more than adequate.
82
They can also destroy the serenity of places like the east side of Manhattan, especially once we hit summer time and they are flying all up and down the E River at sunset, even worse when some of them come "inland" (supposedly prohibited by law) for closeups of the Chrysler Building. They are under the jurisdiction of some kind of NYC economic development commission,not a safety or environmental board, and the governing body seems loathe to restrict them.
22
Flight routes aren't prohibited by law. Helicopter tours from the Downtown Heliport have voluntarily agreed to a route over NY Harbor and along the Hudson River. Flights from NJ can do whatever they please, since the FAA controls the airspace and hasn't imposed any restrictions. NYC elected officials, and the Economic Development Corporation, support this industry wholeheartedly and have, to date, not done anything that would seriously affect its ability to make money-- so the overland flights, and the nonstop water route flights, are fine with them, despite the well known safety hazards and other negative impacts.
8
Cut yourself out with a knife? that is crazy. I am sure the pilot survived from his training and being comfortable in a helicopter. If this was the riders first time I can see them freezing up from the terror not to mention knowing the appropriate time to cut yourself out. It needs a better harness and emergency training for passengers.
27
There seems to be a thrill seeking among people. Extreme sports abound. Some folks are afraid of amusement park rides ( I am- especially hearing folks scream on a roller coaster). Whatever the pleasure seeking part of our brain may lure us to we may try. The rational part says 'be careful', the other says 'no let's do this-what could happen'? Well we find out later and than ask questions about safety and all that. Remember William Burroughs convincing his sweetie to put an apple on her head so he could shoot it off. OOPS!
We ( humans) continue to impress others that we are not the highest form of intelligence on this earth.
7
It's not thrill seeking, it's "like" seeking, as in "how many Instragram likes will my photo get me".
19
Riddle me this... Is a knife required to get out of a harness after a normal landing? Were there quick release mechanisms on the harnesses?
12
No, only in case of an emergency.
1
This will be the question being asked in court by the attorneys representing the deceased.
I can only think of one reason for a company to want to use a harness in a helicopter without a quick release, and that is they don’t want the untrained person wearing it falling out of the helicopter by accidentally releasing it in flight.
I really feel for the deceased’s families. The deaths were entirely preventable.
17
As a 4000 hour, 15 year helicopter pilot having flown search and rescue, fire fighting and also film operations, this accident boggles my mind.
Passengers on harnesses on low level flight ops, teathered to the helicopter by way of a harness without a quick release mechanism was and always is a recipe for disaster.
The attorneys and the FAA are going to have a field day with NYONAIR and rightly so.
Many people killed in a perfectly surviveable crash.
206
Attorney with 34 years of practice says the company will simply declare bankruptcy, reform and continue business as usual, the FAA will do nothing, and tragedies like these will continue until we elect representatives that put constituents before party or campaign donations.
9
The FAA should be sued as well for negligence in allowing this harness setup to be used. In my view the FAA is part of the problem and although their investigator division I’m sure will determine what happened, the regulatory division of the agency should be ashamed of their performance!!
3
I agree with your comments except concerning the FAA. The FAA is responsible for this travesty of helicopters destroying NYers right to peaceful enjoyment of their city and homes. The FAA does not care. The FAA did nothing following 9/11. If the FAA cared about the safety of NYers there would be no helicopters and no low flying planes over the city, East River or Hudson River.
A helicopter is a dangerous instrument, at least it is a German invention parallel to the one of Sikorski. In recent times helicopters have shown problems with computer guiding. Complicated technology always serves an easy death. It's the curse of civilization, sorry to say.
1
Even if the knives had been within reach, can you even imagine that panic those poor people experienced in their last moments? I know if I was in that situation I wouldn't have the calm state of mind needed to cut myself loose.
May they Rest in Peace.
101
If inflatable floats had been installed and or activated this would have been a nonevent.
5
They only partially inflated.
4
I've lost count of the helicopter tragedies taking place in NYC waters over the past 30+ years, there have been many sorrowful occurrences. I'd like to see the tourist trips banned also — there are many other exciting, less dangerous ways to view the city and not add to already congested air traffic looming overhead.
39
From the Hamptons bound air taxis to the incessant NYC tourist choppers it is the wild west up in the air. The industry is lightly regulated compared to commercial fixed wing. Companies like Liberty and their lobbying groups have bought off NYC politicians as evidenced by the limp wristed tourist chopper restrictions recently enacted.
This horrible accident shows how the industry has worked around that pesky Sunday tourist chopper ban - just depart from Kearny, NJ and problem solved.
Hey NYC - how about banning the tourist choppers for a month and see how many calls you get from tax paying residents who miss them??
98
It's NYC economic development commission that regulates these, not a safety or environmental board. I know, having complained about them many times.
20
"Only knives to escape in an emergency"?....and this is legal HOW???
46
These helicopter crashes are an embarrassment to the city and need to be banned, not restricted. Want some high-flying excitement? Go to Coney Island and take a ride on the Wonder Wheel.
45
I used to fly in an old T-34 with an open cockpit. The safety harness of nylon and metal had button in front to push that undid it yet you still had to take your arms out. The pilot, from the Vietnam era, made me practice until I could do it quickly. He has thousands of hours of flight time but still treats it as a first time briefing. As to the floats, according to other news sources, only one deployed, causing the helo to tip over. If both had deployed at the same time, the passengers would probably be alive today.
26
Oh. My. God.
Knives to escape the harnesses? The location of the knives not pointed out to the passengers???
The horror of this is outrageous.
26
'Given a knife to cut their straps in case of a water landing'. The mind boggles unless these were trained Navy Seals
419
Had the harnesses included the proper latch and link style buckle, knives would not have been necessary at all.
9
What an absolute disaster and waste of lives. Strapped in, but no quick release. Who’s idea was it to think that in an emergency situation someone will cut themselves free. Better solve the problem before more flights are made.
15
Stop helicopters period.
40
I wasn't the pilot on this particular flight, but I'm curious as to why the pilot in this case couldn't auto-rotate down to an open space *other* than water.
For those who do not know, helicopters are designed to be able to "auto-rotate"(safely descend via their freely rotating unpowered rotor blades) in the event of an engine failure.
14
What open space?
6
Central Park.
Agreed. One can only imagine he was afraid and felt (rightly or not) that he needed to act quickly. (See the quote in the article about how he "didn't want to go down in Manhattan.")
1
Tragic loss as the copter appeared to land on the water lightly enough so that all could survive the landing.
When I lived in Washington Heights, these noise machines hovered over the neighborhood in the early morning to report traffic patterns on the George Washington Bridge, really annoying.
19
They still do. You can all but hear Robin Williams roaring, "Good morning, Vietnam!!"
9
As last night and early this morning news copters were hovering over east midtown "reporting" on the crash and its aftermath.
8
The tourist helicopter industry in NYC is a major polluter, pays minimal taxes and, thanks to DiBlasio, operates with no oversight on a city-owned pier. Hopefully some young politician on the rise might see how dangerous this industry is, both for the riders and the entire city, and shut them down.
59
This is a sad story that repeats itself so often and my condolences to those impacted. The Times archive is full of these stories. The 1990 Island Helicopter East River Crash that killed Robert Faller and his fathers subsequent pursuit for justice foreshadows these events. New York magazine has an excellent article on that tragic story. Clearly there is a long history of rear helicopter seat belt entrapment.
The recent Grand Canyon crash and all the others seem to indicate a insidious complacency born from the endless routine of sightseeing flights. It ironically contrary to the assurances given so often by these companies - "it is safe we do it all the time."
11
i remember the 1990 crash, which also happened in winter, well as I lived right across the street and happened to walk out of my building as first emergency vehicles arrived and I walked over to watch. Though hundreds of rescuers arrived within minutes, none had boats and none were divers. Everyone on that copter except the young boy got out and were holding on to the overturned craft as it was rapidly swept out and down the East River by the strong currents. After 10 or 15 minutes rescue boats and copters arrived with divers and they were able to get the boy out, but by then he was in cardiac arrest and he died days later at Bellevue. It was such a tragedy -- I believe the flight was a birthday gift from his father.
6
Good memory Ellie,
His father took him on the trip as a surprise during his visitation. The maternal mother was very afraid of flying. It ended costing him both his current and previous relationship, the mother never spoke to him again. Apparently all caused (as seen in photos) by the pilot removing a hand off the collective to give the bird. Again the New York magazine article -google "Robert Faller New Yorker" the 1994 Aug 1st article says it all -in-depth.
1
Before we focus too narrowly on the seat belt issue, I want to see the service and maintenance records for that particular helicopter. The seat belts weren't even an issue until the helicopter landed in the water. Engine failure is the root cause for this tragedy. Actually, seat belts might not even be the issue at all. Do all open door helicopters require a knife for emergency egress? The particular model shown here doesn't exactly look new. Maybe tour companies are operating with outdated safety technology.
The nylon webbing is only one point of failure that led to these people's premature deaths.
9
The comments about helicopter safety by people that have no expertise are absurd. I can understand not wanting to have one fly by constantly to give tourists a view of the city.
In elementary school we took the Circle Line tour, just as impressive and lasts longer. View of the city, why not take the train to Queens or Jersey?
Flying into LaGuardia, get a left side window seat.
17
paulie: I've often flown into LGA and, as you suggest, sat in a reserved left side window seat. A safe, world-class view of the capital of the world, as the plane's approach is over Queens, well to the east of the East River.
4
Before all the civilian postmortems and "should have's" drawn conclusions here, let the NTSB air crash investigators determine the cause and make their recommendations to avoid such a tragic accident in the future.
2
What is it about the American character that dreams up an emergency measure that uses knives, rather than safety buttons or some other method to protect passengers? Was it stupidity or carelessness? My guess is that the thinking involved was not an aberration, but a troubling defect or trait that guides most business people in our capitalistic system: profit above all else and an indifference to human life in pursuit of it. And the poor victims were willing to assume the risk created by that indifference. Next time a conservative sniffs at government regulation, remind him or her of this tragedy.
19
Like prescribing guns to save schoolchildren from shootings...
27
Well, if the passengers had been carrying guns they could have shot their way out.
2
I have lived near the E River for many years and have witnessed several of these incidents. In my exerience, the only people who survive are the ones who get themselves out immediately and can manage to hold onto something (the copter or something else) until help arrives.
People who are trapped under water in the copter don't survive, even if they are taken to the hospital in "critical condition." They die in following days and weeks. Because it usually takes 10-15 mins for divers to arrive they suffer irreversible brain damage. You can have 1000 cops and firefighters there within a minute or two (as I once observed down by the 34th st, heliport), but it's no good if they don't include divers who can get into water by the copter immediately.
The safety screening should have included better instructions on where those "knives" were and how to use them. Even if they did, it would probably still be tough to get out. Have you ever wondered how you would react in a commercial aircraft "water landing" where you had to poke around looking for your "flotation device?"
156
I do not disagree with your assessment ellienyc, however, whenever I fly on a commercial aircraft, I actually DO listen, observe and pay attention to what the flight attendants are demonstrating. I read the instruction sheet, look for the flotation device, AND look for the emergency exists. I have the entire flight to sleep, read my book and/or listen to my music. The very least I owe myself (and my fellow passengers) is to know where stuff is in case an emergency should arise. Knowing this material could literally save one's life.
18
i listen carefully to safety screenings, too, but still doubt my ability to carry through on them in an emergency situation, especially with .planes as crowded as they are today
14
I hear ya ellienyc and I sincerely apologize if I appeared to be disrespectful and/or rude in my reply to your comment. Who really knows how he/she would react in a situation like that helicopter crash and heaven forbid, any airline emergency. All I do know is if you were sitting next to me, I would like to think I would do my very best to keep us both safe. May neither of us ever be in that kind of frightening situation.
10
What a horrible way to go... slowly descending toward the water and then unable to free themselves from their harnesses. That water is freezing cold, dark, and disorienting. To expect a bunch of tourists to be able to slice themselves out of a multi-point harness and then escape a rapidly sinking chopper in cold, dark water is lunacy. That scenario is drilled into soldiers numerous times with simulated choppers actually dunked into water, and it's still a precarious escape. These types of flights and the safety regulations surrounding them need to be revisited from the top down.
40
As a pilot, open doors and rear connected harnesses sound perfectly reasonable for the mission of low level photography. A thin door in this case would've just been another escape barrier. What is troubling is that it appears they did not get a proper briefing for the dangerous part about the flight-that it was low level, and that any emergency would probably result in a ditching, possibly one where the pilot might not be able to inflate the flotation that should've allowed him to autorotate down to a soft, upright water landing. The fact that the pilot was able to unbuckle and crawl out means that they were all conscious and should've been able to get out as well if they had known how. Beyond tragic.
165
Why does the pilot’s having been conscious lead you to conclude that all the passengers were, as well? Thank you.
3
I am shocked that anyone would blame the 5 passengers for their own inability to free themselves and survive this crash. Wow. Presumptuous doesn't even begin to describe such arrogant reasoning.
8
Also, at least some of passengers were not professional photographers and were taking photos with their phones.
4
I fly as a passenger in a helicopter recreationally, and although I don't know much about helicopters, I do know that if a water landing is anticipated the first priority is to detach your seatbelt. Probably the first thing I learned about being in a helicopter. I wonder if passengers were briefed on this fact. They should not have had to "wiggle" out of anything or cut the harness; buckles should have been within easy access for detachment at all times.
95
Helicopters are dangerous noise machines. As someone who lives on the Upper West Side, my wife and I have long advocated for reduction or elimination of tourist helicopters that fly above the Hudson River and make an afternoon in Riverside Park a headache with the overhead assault. There was a organization called Stop the Chop that fought the tourist helicopter companies, but its website was hacked and is down for the moment at least. Manhattan/NJ politicians should do more to protect their constituents, instead of taking 'donations' from the helicopter companies. One thing they did do, the Sunday helicopter ban, seems not to be effective since the crash was on Sunday on the East River. Isn't the ban for both rivers? Who is monitoring the tourist choppers? Let's get organized before crashes and noise this summer.
222
The helicopter pad on E 34th St. is quiet on Sundays (loud and reeking of fumes on other days whenever craft are taking off and landing there). The one that crashed took off from NJ, it seems.
5
Yeah, the noise. Who cares about the deaths? Let's make your home more tranquil. Priority number one.
8
I'm totally agree with you! I live on the UES and they are a noise blight especially during summer months with flights to the Hamptons.
19
I'm sorry for these deaths. But a little perspective is in order. In thousands of hours flown, how many people die? Yes: helicopters are inherently more dangerous than other types of flight.... but the experience is unique, and doubtless that was the experience these folks wanted. They made this choice. How many of us pay attention to the "exit info" on commercial flights? Same sort of thing. "It won't happen to me," I tell myself. And it hasn't.
14
Fortunately, I guess, it fell into the East River. What if it had fallen a few feet east - onto a building or street? The rivers are not runways for helicopters and should be banned with the exception of getting from point A to point B - i.e., travel use, or by the police or military. Manhattan is constructed of many residential neighborhoods and these drones are noisy and invasive. Even the news agencies should be banned from using them - buzzing overhead for traffic reports. Such nonsense.
20
Good point - there was the recent crash in the Grand Canyon - how many thousands of flights happened before that incident? Everything involves risk - walking across the street in your neighborhood before being mowed by a driver who had no business behind a wheel; or the snowboarders who got killed in the Sierra Nevadas last week. All we can do is try to make things as safe as possible. But there is no pure guaranteed failsafe.
Before I turned 30, I eye witnessed two helicopter crashes resulting in deaths and serious injuries. One of them also caught on fire. I refuse to ride in them, only if in a necessary emergency medi-vac or rescue situation.
At least with a fixed wing aircraft you have a chance of landing, as Capt. Sully well demonstrated upon the Hudson.
67
An unpowered helicopter experiencing an engine failure can auto-rotate (basically descend slowly) to the ground, just as a jet experiencing an engine failure can glide to a landing.
6
Not the one I saw coming in for a landing at Waikiki Beach in front of the Ala Moana Hotel. This tourist filled copter slammed hard down on to the helo-pad.
The "safety" measures on this chopper might work for Green Berets and Special Forces. Certainly not for civilians. Surely there's a better way to design harnesses with a quick release in front. But a knife?
289
Mr. Braun, I do believe you nailed it with your comment. What a horrible tragedy all the way around.
3
Not to mention the fact that cutting the type of webbing used for seat belts or harnesses is not that easy, especially in a panic situation. Lawsuit!
5
These type of harnesses already exist. The person simply pulls on a cord to let themselves out.
4
Sounds like a heli scene from apocolypse now. With everyone leaning out of the open door but instead of machine guns, iPhones. And this insanity is allowed ?? Well I'm sure they signed a waiver. The difference of this risky behaviour vs base jumping is the assumption of the tourists who line up for this that there is no real risk.
56
This entire scenario is so bad on so many levels. The notion of riding in a helicopter with no doors with the only "safety feature" being a knife to cut the harness in case of an emergency goes beyond common sense, much less comprehension. How and why in the world are these helicopters and sight seeing companies allowed to operate with so little regard for a passenger's safety in case an emergency? How horrific all the way around.
242
I am sure a few lawsuits will take care of the issues you raise. And it's about time.
13
I saw the twitter video of the crash -- it was not high speed. The pilot clearly knew where his knife was and it is a shame the passengers did not. These five avoidable deaths are squarely on Liberty and FlyNYON, and both businesses should be shut down permanently.
356
Just had to say, the pilot probably without doubt, had a standard (regulation) seat belt/harness and had no need for a knife. Being conscious after impact, easily releasing it at the buckle was not a problem. Different story for passengers.
8
I doubt the pilot used a knife to cut himself out his harness. He probably had the benefit of a quick release buckle but I suppose that will come out with the investigation.
16
@John from New York: I completely agree with your assessment. The pilot clearly realized the chopper was going down. Did he yell to the passengers and warn them of the pending crash? Seems as if those poor souls didn't stand a chance the moment they boarded the aircraft.
14
On February 27, 2007, the National Transportation Safety Board recommended that the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) require that all helicopters used in commercial air tour operations over water, regardless of the amount of time over water, be amphibious or equipped with fixed or inflatable floats (Safety Recommendation A-07-27). The FAA disagreed and never implemented the NTSB recommendation. Since then, this is at least the fourth helicopter that has crashed into water causing fatalities. Check it out at: https://www.ntsb.gov/safety/safety-recs/RecLetters/A07_27_29.pdf
143
This helicopter was equipped with inflatable floats.
3
John,
The FAA recognizes that every safety system comes with a cost, and in this case, fixed pontoons increase dynamic instability and consequently increase the risk of departure from controlled flight.
Also, note that this helicopter did indeed have inflatable pontoons. While the media screams, professionals will wait for the NTSB report to make an informed decision.
2
Unless I'm missing something, it did appear to have inflatable floats. But because the rotor hit the water and caused the aircraft to flip over, the floats didn't seem to help.
6
It's hard to believe that being provided a knife to cut through a safety harness in an emergency is an acceptable safety standard--and the deaths of these young passengers bears that out. In an aircraft that costs millions of dollars, is it that hard to create a harness with a quick release button? If that's not feasible due to the fact that the aircraft had open doors--then no more open doors on helicopter tours.
379
Accidentally popping quick releases on harnesses is much more likely than autorotating into water. I don't have any data to say which is more survivable, but with doors open, falling out of the harness is almost certainly fatal.
6
Can you "accidentally" release your buckled seat belt? usually no. Same concept and mechanism for the harness.
5
why not just no more helicopters? why not just no more guns? why not just no more terrorists? why not just people wise up and care for themselves.
So very sorry for all those who lost family and friends in this tragedy. At the very least it would seem that safety requirements should be tightened so that passengers can easily escape from their "safety" harnesses? Following an accident of this type should tourists be expected to both find the knife, and cut through harnesses in the dark/wet cabin of a sinking helicopter? Seems there has to be a better way?
103
I live in Hoboken and would love for them to be banned entirely. All weekend long in good weather these things fly up and down the Hudson River at 5-minute intervals, resulting in constant noise pollution.
389
Same for me out on the North Fork of Long Island.
8
And all of Brooklyn Bridge Park.
2
That is a NIMBY issue not a safety issue.
3
I find this story appalling. Open doors on helicopters? After dark? Whose lunacy is behind this? If this is the best our so-called civilized society has to offer, then it hardly behooves us to publicize the world's desperate populations. We have no excuse for this tragedy except greed and stupidity.
292
It wasn't "after" dark. These copter tours, at least some of them, are specifically designed to be up there at sunset to take pictures of the sun setting in west over Manhattan skyline. Unfortunately, the rescue took place in dark, but "flight" didn't.
5
Ditto. This type of "adventure" travel is not only dangerous for passengers and crew, it endangers the lives of rescue workers.
Although highly trained, it's extremely dangerous to work in the conditions the divers had. Rescue workers deserve all the praise and gratitude we can muster. Stop the stupidity.
30
Would you mind open doors in daylight?
1
They are given a knife to 'cut themselves out of their straps', if something happens? That right there would have given me serious pause. I would have wanted to somehow first 'ensure' that the knife was sharp enough to easily slice through the strap...that I would have been able to quickly do so. And yet, how could one 'test that' beforehand?...clearly they don't have sample straps laying around for everyone to first try cutting with their knives.
102
Could not agree more. Any emergency escape device that involves cutting with a knife is a serious red flag as to why that adventure should be a no. And most of the victims were young, fit and able bodied. So that demonstrates how unworkable that Deer Hunter solution was in an emergency. Sad and unnecessary deaths.
10