Wage theft is small potatoes compared to a gigantic land theft, usually accompanied by a mass slaughter of indigent population, slavery and - by today’s standards – general inhumanity exhibited by all peoples since time immemorial.
Thank heaven we’re living in the age of enlightenment!
always tip in cash rather than putting it on your credit card so you can be sure your server actually gets the money
8
As an individual taxpayer, I am tired of subsidizing small business. When we will stopping bowing down at the alter because small businesses “create jobs”. It’s not just that at $7.25 hour, they are crappy jobs, but more importantly, those jobs – and the small business itself – are actually subsidized by me. Not the government. Me. Only 14% of government revenues come from business taxes. Almost all the rest is from the individual taxpayer. So, when someone is making $7.25 an hour so that the small business owner can keep their business going, I am making up for that ridiculous wage through education subsidies, food stamps, healthcare, etc. And I’m getting tired of doing that. If you can’t pay someone a decent wage, don’t have a business. Or at least, don’t count on me to fund it for you.
3
Why is the New York Times editorial board opining on the “rest of the country” when most wait staff in NYC is well-compensated and fairly tipped? Danny Meyer’s situation is also unique in that his front of the house staff were tipped as a percentage of his menu prices (which were high), while the back of the house (who actually prepares the food) were probably receiving minimum wage and likely went to a pricey culinary school. And “wage theft” is a bizarre headline for an editorial that doesn’t provide any evidence of such. Am I missing something?
2
Again it seems that in Europe we are much more progressive.
6
In Europe the service charge is included in the price of the meal. Tipping is not required. This is so much fairer and lessens the possibility of harassment.
8
I have never understood why I, the customer, have to pay part of the waitstaff’s wages. And to make matters worse, the expected tip nowadays is 15-18%...outrageous! They should be paid the same as all other minimum wage workers. Restaurants have been getting away with this nonsense and it’s time for it to stop.
6
Eliminate the tipping system. End of the problem!
2
Tipping is just another example of how the US has become the United States of Corporate Welfare. Exploit the worker, grab all the profits as a business you can, buy a political party to pass laws to expand the corporate nanny state, pack the Supreme Corporate Court. Create a Faux propaganda network to praise a corrupt and unjust system. Such is reality in the good old US of A.
4
As a European I can only watch in wonder why customers agree to this system. Do you pay tips at the shop where you buy your coat or at the car dealership where you buy your car, because the employers find it too expensive to pay their salespeople? What sort of nonsense is this? If I sit on a parkbench and pay somebody to bring me some food, fine. But why should I pay extra when I sit in a restaurant and buy a meal, to be served at the table, from the owner?
And also the tip level has risen from once 10% to 18 or 20%. Since the basis of calculation has been rising with general price levels, why should the percentage have risen in addition to that?
An incomprehensible system for non-Americans and I have to say, some of us never tipped in the USA, maintaining that they buy a meal from the restaurant at the price listed in the menu and it is not our problem if service people cannot make their employers pay them properly.
4
Another way some restaurants steal wages from tipped employees is they charge the employee for the credit and debit card fees that banks charge the restaurant. It is the restaurant's cost of doing business to pay those credit/debit fees, not the waitstaff. My brother, recently disabled at age 53, has worked as a waiter at mostly high end restaurants. Some of these high end places are classy to their staff and some assuredly are not. It is illegal in my brother's state of residence to charge the waitstaff for creditdebit card fees but waitstaff can't afford to sue for the small thefts, nor can they risk their jobs over the theft.
My daughter graduated magna cum laude from Cornell's Hotel School. She was fantasizing a career in restaurants, owning her own someday. Almost immediately into her first professional job post Cornell, she wanted out. Restaurants can chew people up and spit them out. Maybe a star chef makes good money, but she found it too rough and tumble. So she is a real estate developer, which might be as rough and tumble as it gets .. . but no one in her immediate world experiences wage theft in real estate.
Tips are a gift, not a part of the wage package. Scummy restaurant operators, mostly chains, don't understand this concept. Why was Nevada always an egalitarian state (until they started taxing tips before they were received) Because tips were considered a gift. Tips are a contract between the customer and the server. The owner is not part of the deal. Like the concept, there are no professional sports jerseys with an owners name on them, the owner didn't serve the food, the employee did.
I worked as a waitress in college and beyond and my daughter is now doing the same. I am in favor of keeping the tip system but I think it is absolutely insulting (both to the waiters and the customers) that restaurants stiff their waitstaff by paying them a measly $2.13 per hour.
One has to arrive early, clean and set up your tables, fold napkins, as well as work very hard throughout one's shift. Why should restaurants not pay their workers MINIMUM wage for all of their working hours? And ultimately, these businesses are placing the burden of their employees' wages squarely on the shoulders of their customers.
I think it should be illegal to anyone less than the minimum wage. Pay up and shut up. What a bunch of cheapskates.
7
I hear conflicting reports from servers. On the one hand they complain about people that don’t tip the amount they expect and desire. On the other hand they brag about the hundreds of dollars they make each night in tips. I tip 15% for anything but poor service. That usually amounts to $10 from my table for the hour I’m there as one of 4-6 tables the server is working. I feel that’s plenty. The growing expectation over the last few decades to 18 and now 20 percent is something I don’t agree with or support. Enough is enough.
2
There's a strange disconnect between this article and reality. Many, if not most, servers earn far more than what is considered a living wage. Many earn over $50 an hour when tips are counted. That said, it does seem that there are lots of servers working in inexpensive restaurants that are earning less than minimum wage. Seems like there could be a law that solves this problem without having to raise every servers salary. For example, if salary plus tips paid out (via credit card tipping) equals less than minimum wage, then the restaurant needs to make up the difference. If it works out to more than minimum wage, they don't.
4
When I first began traveling in Europe, I once asked a server about tipping, and he replied something to the effect of, "No, I don't need a tip. I have a salary." He actually seemed somewhat offended.
Americans have been conditioned to believe that restaurants can't possibly pay their employees, so they must depend on tips. But, just like any other industry, you should have to price your product to cover your costs. There's nothing unique about the restaurant industry, other than it has a lobby that continues to push for sub-minimum wages for its employees.
As an employee, having your income dependent on the number of customers and their arbitrary generosity makes your income swing wildly from day to day.
And, as a customer, once you get used to not tipping, it's nice to see the price up-front. In Europe, the taxes are also included, so a 40 euro meal costs 40 euros, not 40 euros plus 8% tax plus 20% tip. The up-front price is higher, but the bottom line is what matters.
10
Tipped or not a waiter or a bartender doesn't deserve to make more money than a line cook or a dishwasher. If tipped employees refuse to share with people working hard back-of-the-house, their fixed wage must be lower.
6
Why doesn't a server deserve more money than a cook? They have a much harder job: they have to deal with customers directly. Cooks are free to become servers. Very few ever take that route despite the pay differential.
3
The reason profit margins for restaurants are so thin is because barriers to entry are low and competition is correspondingly high. Restauranteurs often assume that any cost increase will kill them, but that's only true if it doesn't affect their competitors. If every restaurant in a given area is simultaneously required to pay workers more, nobody suffers a competitive disadvantage, and there's no reason anyone needs to go under.
3
Join the first world, pay a living wage. I know, bizarre concept, paying people for working.
6
I have been to many countries where there is no tipping, service is uneven to say the least. Servers are indifferent to customers and aloof. In one establishment in Europe I had to chase the server down for some more coffee only to be refilled with a lukewarm mess. No tipping doesn't bring the best out when the same paycheck you will receive if you go the extra mile or not.
2
Some real confusion in parts of the commentariat, this is NOT about eliminating the custom of tipping, but raiding the base minimum wage.
Not all wait staff work in high end high dollar places, it's making sure workers in family and "Fast Casual" establishments actually make a living wage, and helping to eliminate some of the all to common "management" abuses.
7
This is not confusion. The Times is running in parallel a long anecdotal screed on the front page about harassment of waitstaff. The comment section there is (inexplicably) turned off.
In nyc, a fine dining restaurant's cost of payroll is 30-40% of sales. Cost of food and beverage 25-30%, cost of occupancy/rent 10-20%, other general costs such as insurance/utilities/admin etc 10-15%. Pre tax income hovers around 10%, when things are good.
Service staff typically makes 20-25% of a restaurants sales, and in nyc it is almost non discretionary, it is all but automatic.
The new wage laws are welcomed, even by most restaurant owners, if they will help mitigate some of the train wrecks that are in the costs of living in our cities.
As for tipping, there are great merits to this long standing American practice, your paper should interview some of the millions who can speak about that first sense of "owning your destiny" as young men and women in or out of college, artists, budding entrepreneurs etc, etc...fostering optionality and freedom for many across all demographics. Going the "European way" might be good for some operators with "certain interests"........but tipping is as American as "a good" apple pie.
3
your article should have addressed other businesses: is hair salons that pay minimum wage and stylists earn large tips, often in cash ( no tax reported) many are barely profitable.
1
1) The answer is diners should boycott all restaurants where servers do not receive a living wage.
2) High school students are reminded to stay in school and go to college so you don't have to wait on tables with below minimum wage for a living.
1
Just another element of proof demonstrating the built-in system of injustice intrinsic to American society. Millions are forced to tolerate a lifetime of class oppression hardly any different from the Scheduled Caste system formerly accepted by the Indian government to force 'lower' castes to toil in dangerous and repugnant trades.
Forget about the notion of working one's way up the social ladder. That is an immense Horatio Alger fable -- mostly gone in Europe, too.
1
Tipping is good. I learned this while living in England, where people don't tip. Service is not very good; staff do not routinely walk around wiping tables. Often a table would be sticky, with visible debris; you had to go get a cloth and wipe it yourself.
At one upscale Indian restaurant I used to go to, the manager told me that he had to import serving staff; locals, he said, simply did not know how to properly serve a meal and pay attention to customers.
This is directly due to the lack of tipping. I repeat, tipping is good. Tip well.
2
People in England don't tip??? I got the impression that the English will tip anything that moves!
I recall being on a bus tour in New Zealand off a British cruise ship to Rotorua, and at the end of the tour back at Auckland the tinkling of coins in pockets and purses of the English passengers as they got off the bus was noticeable. The Kiwi bus driver was somewhat surprised at getting tipped as it wasn't expected - not all that customary in NZ (or in Australia).
In London, if you don't tip a driver of a black cab you will be showered with a lot of expletives.
Even so, I don't think the custom of tipping is as widespread in the U.K. as it is in the U.S. In Japan, tipping is very uncommon.
Of course restaurant workers should receive the minimum wage. Vermont does not pay the minimum wage to restaurant employees but if an employee makes no tips in any given period that employees wage is adjusted upwards to make up the $10.50 minimum wage. The minimum wage in Vermont is $10.50 per hour. So if a person makes $6.00 in tips the employer can pay cash $5.25 but this must make up the minimum wage or in this case slightly more. But the law in Vermont states that by a combination of tips and cash payment the total salary must amount to the minimum wage of $10.50. If there are no tips the employee will still make the minimum wage. Other states may have different arrangements but the salary must never be less than minimum wage.
3
How lucky that the business owner gets their labor costs subsidized by their own paying customers!!! (This May be read with an air of sarcasm and condescension.)
1
Agree with the model in some European countries of adding a service charge as a separate line item. The next step is to distribute the service charge to all the providers of service, including the hard-working heart of house folks (aka kitchen). If a guest chooses to leave more than the standard service charge, that's for the server to keep and not pool. The problem with just raising tipped team members to full minimum wage (and they keep all the tips, no service charge) is that servers prosper disproportionately versus other team members who work just as hard to give you the guest a beautiful meal.
A service charge regime with everybody in the house getting paid a living wage also has a benefit in that the server doesn't need to grovel for tips - just fulfill the normal expectation of friendly and attentive service. (If service is dreadful, just as when your steak is overcooked, have the manager take it off the bill.)
2
Tipping model of restaurant business has proven advantageous to both business owners and service providers. If you serve better you will earn better has been implied in most cases, exceptions are always there.
5
Actually, it has been proven that attractive, young and white servers make the most, regardless of their co-workers equivalent service. As well, the diner’s mood has more to do with tipping, rather than the quality of service, unless of course, there’s pretty obvious bad service.
Eliminate tips. Raise prices proportionally. Raise wages proportionally (including wages of non-tipped staff). Keep in mind that some will earn less than they do now and poor wait staff will receive the same wage as those who go the extra mile.
8
That sounds like a good idea to you? Cutting the pay of people that work hard and raising the wage of people that do not care enough to do their job to a standard? That doesn't make sense.
Just pay them a fair wage. Look at your menu and increase prices by 25% to 30% to cover this and show prices that are all inclusive.
4
Your plan is to have customers pay 5-10% more than what they currently pay (menu price plus 20% tip). You honestly think that won't devastate many restaurants?
3
Who does this help? To the guest they now are forced to pay MORE than they would if they could decide how much to tip, because with your suggestion of 25-30% more not that is just going to the business and it is more money than anyone had to pay before. The guest isn't going to be able to afford it and it gives people no incentive to make the experience of dining out anything special.
2
Sure, let’s take one of the more flexible and lucrative jobs in the restaurant industry and turn it into a minimum wage job. Elimination of tipping was recently rejected in Maine with strong opposition from waiters.
10
I ate at a NYC restaurant that "prohibits" tipping. At the end of the menu a note in italics indicates that the bill will be supplemented with a 20% gratuity charge. The service was awful. My drink didn't arrive until the meal was over. People weren't served properly or timely. It really couldn't have been worse. But, the waitress didn't really care because she was getting her "tip" regardless.
10
Then don't go back to that restaurant. Simple enough.
Why is it my responsibility to pay restaurant workers directly? Why don't I have to then also tip teachers, police officers, firemen, street cleaners, deliverymen, bus drivers or any other host of professions? A tip, if it must remain, must also be voluntary. The idea that if I walk into a restaurant, I suddenly owe it to the person who is serving me to ensure they get a decent wage is incomprehensible. You took my order? Great. Give me the bill and I'll pay. If that bill includes your wage, even better.
I don't walk into a restaurant complaining about how I am being underpaid for *my* job and I don't expect anyone but my employer to be responsible.
11
So whether you do it directly or indirectly you pay the salary of every person who provides you a service or a good. The cost of the cashier at Target's labor is built into the items you are buying. In a restaurant you actually have the opportunity to award a person for going above the normal and making your experience of dining out worth the extra money you are paying for a meal you could have prepared yourself for less. Tips are not mandated and you can decide what they are and we actually have no repercussions against you personally if you chose not to leave us a good one. I would like to point out that we are actually not complaining about our wage, we like it, and if you don't want to tip or feel obligated to, don't go out to eat, or go visit Danny Meyer at a location where you don't have to tip.
3
@Maggie, telling me "don't come and eat here" because I state my opinion against tips is like me telling you "don't work there if you don't like not being tipped".
And to tell me that it's voluntary then go on to tell me not to go and eat out is contradictory.
2
I am an owner of two popular restaurants in NY state. I have mixed feelings about eliminating the tipped wage. First, at a good, well-run restaurant, there is no wage theft, harassment or other types of illegal activities. Everything we do using a Point of Sale system is easily audited. Eliminating the tipped wage won't stop those who are cooking their books.
At a busy restaurant servers are making plenty of money. We have full-timers earning over $60K/year for a job that offers flexibility and requires no college loans. To those commenters saying that they don't want pay the employees: the customer is always the one playing the employees, in every business on Earth.
Eliminating tips would be bad. We get good people to be servers now because the compensation is high. Without tips, servers would likely make somewhat more than minimum wage but not anything like what they make now. Some restaurants would likely automate ordering, eliminating good-paying jobs completely.
All that said, I would like to see the separate tipped wage go away. While it will cost me a little bit more, my restaurants can handle it. It will drive poorly-run places out of business, leaving more talent for us to choose from when hiring (finding good people in this industry is especially trying). I am concerned that this could start a trend toward a no-tip model which would ultimately hurt society by eliminating good-paying service jobs, but in the short term it would help weed out poor performers.
9
This is not about eliminating tips, but bringing the minimum wage up; And helping to eliminate an assortment of abusive "management" practices.
Not everyone can wait staff at a high end place, lots of people work at middle of the road "Fast Casual" restaurants. And the mom & pop non chain operations.
2
Maybe, just maybe, you should have a look at the parts of the world that pay a living wage upfront (sometimes called "the first world"), and see that none of your excuses hold water.
1
I'm glad I'm in Japan at the moment. No tipping problem, because no tipping. No resentment or guilt on either side, just a lot of smiling. Oh, and there's National Healthcare...
15
The tip system is very disturbing for a French guy like me, tips seems to be an obligation without being presented as an obligation. When the service is not good, i always have a bad feeling if i give a very low tips because i know that tip is the most part of income. And other hand, some restaurant in New York give a bill where the tip is already written and calculated, where is my choice, especially in Manhattan where often i have the feeling that it is a favor to be allowed to sit at the table. And why does the tip have to be link to the price of the meal ? I am less and less comfortable with tips, it would be nice to stop them
6
You can still leave a reasonable tip but make some comments on the receipt or speak to the manager as you’re leaving. Feedback in words is more specific and can be helpful.
1
There is no legal obligation in NYS to pay a tip that has been added to a restaurant check. This is well-known in the industry.
2
I have many friends in the restaurant/bar service industry. Tipping is a complex problem. They put up with a great deal for their cash tips-and frankly need the tips to be in cash, as if they were completely on the books, the taxes would leave the city totally unaffordable. It already borderline is for most of these folks.
Personally, I’d rather have service built into the restaurant model. I’d rather see a “professional” model for service, as opposed to a discretionary commission one like what currently exists. I already pay the extra 20%-formalize it, create steadier jobs, income and benefits for these folks.
4
"The restaurant industry asserts that raising the tipped wage would hurt small businesses, forcing some to close." oh no!! whatever.
wages and tips should be on separate tracks and unrelated; the corporate scoundrels are to blame always finding some scheme to bolster profits and of course employee wages and benefits is their first target.
6
"Wage Theft in Restaurants"
Maybe it's unfair but it isn't `theft`.
There use to be a time when writing the news meant choosing and using words clearly and carefully. Apparently, the TImes has now abandoned those journalistic standards.
15
Failing to raise the minimum wage for waiters is not theft. Granting restaurants discretion to keep tips that a customer leaves for the waiter effectively legalizes theft. Both were mentioned in this article.
3
Exactly. Thank you.
Anything less and they've failed at pushing their anti-business liberal agenda.
Tipping is in general an uncivilized practice.
10
Or people can just not eat there. Stop meddling with the wage floor.
4
Let's adopt the approach used in many other countries and pay restaurant staff a wage and eliminate tipping. If restaurant can not make an economic go of it, I suggest they cut their oversize portions - maybe Americans will eat and a little less and obesity rates will decline. Or, more Americans, like our counterparts in other countries, will eat out less and eat home more - also, encouraging people to eat less and reducing the rate of obesity. Sounds like a win, win to me.
9
Only non-waiters suggest this.
2
Times: "... bosses can easily withhold or steal tips, especially from workers they don’t like or who refuse their propositions."
That's incoherent. The "ease" has nothing to do with how the boss feels about the employees. The tip collection and distribution process is what determines how "easily" "bosses" can "withhold or steal tips".
And what is the difference between withholding a tip and stealing it?
5
We have a restaurant near us that pays the back staff a higher wage than the waiters to compensate for the lack of tips. The employees are happy and they take good care of the customers. There's no excuse not to pay people a living wage but sadly our capitalist system encourages greed by employers. History tells us that eventually the serfs rebel and it never ends well for the wealthy.
9
As a consumer I am really sick of tipping. Trying to figure what to give, feeling guilty to undertip even if service or food was bad. If you travel everyone has their hand out and I have seen people who didn't tip have their luggage have a problem. I say pay your employees minimum wage or more and charge whatever and leave the public alone.
22
If you advocate for No Tipping, you are advocating for Wage Theft. There is simply no way to replace the employee compensation provided by tips without
price increases much, much larger than anyone commenting here understands. It's math. If you eliminate tips employees will earn less. Why is this a good thing?
The solution to raising all restaurant employees' wages is to allow restaurants to more equitably share tips among employees, not to eliminate tips. The DOL is trying to do just that with it's proposed rule on tip pools. Why are unions, progressives, and the NYT advocating FOR lower restaurant wages?
6
LOL, out here in the first-world (i.e. not the US), those systems work just fine. Strange how that happens.
1
Getting rid of tipping is the only solution to this problem. Pay them a living wage and be done with it
12
Please define "living wage" and when you do so make sure your definition encompasses the entire human population's needs in life.
I make more than a "living wage" as a server, if I lose my tips my life will change forever and I am so happy people on here think that that is okay.
2
The scourge of wage theft is distinct from the concept of a tipped minimum wage. With respect to wage theft, servers in New York are often cheated out of their pay in a variety of ways which are chronicled at waiterpay.com. On the other hand, the issue of the tipped minimum wage in NYC is more nuanced. For large restaurants in New York (11 employees or more) the tipped minimum wage had a dramatic rise from $5 per hour in 2016 to its current rate of $8.65 per hour in 2018, and the overtime rate in NYC for servers had a corresponding rise from to $10.88 per hour in 2016 to its present rate of $15.15. The result of this rise in the minimum wage rate is that restaurants in NYC are loathe to have front-of-the-house workers stay a minute past 40 hours. Otherwise, their cost of labor goes from $8.65 per hour to $15.15. Capitation of the workweek at 40 is the unintended consequence of the rise in the minimum wage and servers in NYC, whose tips dwarf their minimum wage, are generally not happy about this development. We are not in Kansas anymore - where the tipped minimum wage is $2.13 per hour.
5
All restaurant workers should be paid minimum wage, at the minimum. The assumption that the customer should make up the difference through tips is unfair to customers and servers. Many people don’t know about this labor law and assumes their server is making a minimum wage and the tip is a tip, not part of their salary. Pay everyone at least minimum wage and split the tip between all workers who all have a part in your dining experience. If a restaurant can’t afford to pay its workers fairly then they need to reconsider their business model.
7
I live in WA, which does not have a sub-minimum wage for servers. Instead, they earn a minimum of $11.50 an hour, just like everyone else. Recently I went with family members to a quite nice restaurant in Seattle (300 miles from my home). When the bill arrived it had an added 5% charge to help defray the cost of paying the $15 minimum wage there. My brother-in-law was confused by this, and asked if he should then leave just a 15% tip. But we figured out that it was just a way for the owners to charge more than the advertised prices, to the possible detriment of their servers' tips. I think this practice has since been made illegal. He left 20%/
2
I'm sorry, but if a waiter is getting paid $15/hour, why is he also entitled to a 20% tip on top of that? Waiters should be paid a living wage ($15-20/hour), but not more than teachers or nurses or other college-educated professionals. $15 plus 20% of the bill is way more than most teachers make!
14
Part of the wage of teachers is the benefits package. Professionals usually have a benefits package also. That makes a big difference in the overall salary earned.
3
I read this article with shock as I was eating out. I asked my waitress if it was true, and she responded in the affirmative. Guess what else? She told me that the $2.13 hourly wage gets reduced according to the amount of tips, until the restaurant pays no wage at all.
How can employers get away with that?
10
Taxes for reported tips are deducted from the hourly rate. Employees are supposed to declare their tips, though they usually underreport, and they pay taxes on them. But that is why her wages are shrinking, not because the employer is stealing from her!
7
You are missing the point. Tipping is what the waiter receives in addition to his salary. That is the very definition of what a tip or gratuity is. It does not release the restaurant from the responsibility of paying their servers minimum wage.
Unbelievable.
1
I do not know where you were eating but in New York servers do not get paid $2.13 and the amount of tips never decreases the wage, the taxes owed on the tips received reduce the paycheck, just like anyone else earns a wage and then pays taxes out of that to determine how much you get in a paycheck.
1
The Trump administration's move to shift all control of tip revenue is but one more example of its hypocritical claim to be the voice if the underdog. It is not, never was and never will be. This is as sure as the world's seasonal cycle and the shocking reality that the Pope is indeed Catholic.
3
If you go to a restaurant and don't know its policies, and don't even know whether your tip goes into the pockets of the wait person or the owner, that's on you. Obviously, if you truly care about this issue, you should never knowingly patronize a restaurant that underpays or steals tips from its employees.
3
So what are people supposed to do? Phone a restaurant and ask them if they steal tips and underpay? The blame resides with the restaurant owner/thieves, not customers without insider knowledge and not cheated waitstaff.
DLS--And how exactly are you supposed to figure out what a restaurant's policy is in regards to tips and who gets what? Do you have a crystal ball for each restaurant because I guarantee, unless you work there or know someone who does, you will not have that knowledge of where the money actually goes.
The article shrugs off reduced profits for owners as if most restaurants are making a profit at all. Maybe in Manhattan. Out here in America most of my restaurant clients are struggling to stay in the black.
8
Then I wonder why it works just fine in some other states, like mine, to pay a decent wage?
6
Funny how paying a living wage manages to work in first-world countries, though. If you can't pay employees, you don't have a business. How hard is that as a concept?
4
I have been on both sides of this issue. I was a tipped employee as both bartender and server. I now own two restaurants. If owners play fair, the system works. It is when owners divert tips to traditionally non-tipped employees (kitchen staff and managers or themselves that it breaks down and people get hurt. A simple solution would be to redefine tipped employees to include kitchen staff. Bussers are already included as are bar-backs. Pool all the tips and everyone gets a share. Everyone is motivated to do well and all enjoy the financial reward. Moving to a European system would increase tax revenue much because cash tipping is nearly gone due to the increased use of plastic. If it has a paper trail, it gets reported. We should absolutely not allow for a change in rules that the other NRA is pushing that would allow owners to claim a share of tips for "re-investment or capital improvements ".
2
I wonder if there will be any way to track how restaurants in NYC distribute tips once new regulations are implemented and provide owners with the discretion to distribute tips however they want. I would never go to a restaurant that keeps any portion of its tips or distributes a portion of the tips to managers. I would also be reluctant to frequent restaurants that distribute tips to people other than the wait staff as waiters are subject to a lower minimum wage than other employees.
6
In NY tip pooling in the way of Trump's regulation is illegal. There are state laws that protect the tip of a server. Therefore because Trump's plan would be an option for a restaurant and not a mandate it would not be allowed in the state of New York.
I worked at a fast food chain, $7.50/hr. I racked up enough to pay rent. Phew. Manager refused to pay me, waited a good six weeks for payment. After repeated threats to go to the BBB, he finally agreed to meet me at the restaurant with a paycheck. So I arrive, he's no where to be found, he sends over a waitress to take my order! I finally cornered him in the kitchen, when he forked over the check (he had a big grin on his face too). That shouldn't have had to happen!
8
I agree with you that this scenario shouldn't happen and you should report him without a question. But, the entire industry does not run like this and there are better ways to remedy that problem without turning the entire industry upside down.
When I visit a restaurant, I expect my meal to come with a cook, service, cutlery, etc. Just like when I get on an airplane, I expect a pilot and cabin staff as part of the experience. The idea that I am expect to pay for service separately is absurd. Restaurants should pay their staff a living wage and not expect their customers to voluntarily pay for a core part of the restaurant experience.
The fallacy that service is great in the US compared to elsewhere due to the tipping culture is an urban myth. US service is on average pretty bad, considering the work is so unattractive for many or they are exhausted from having to work multiple jobs to make ends meet.
20
As a small business owner I am sick and tired of giving a free ride to the restaurant industry. Just because their employees get tips should not be counted against the fact that EVERY business in this country EXCEPT the restaurant industry must pay the minimum. If they can't afford to pay their people the minimum wage then they should close their doors and go out of business. This free ride to the restaurant industry is Herman Cain's (the ex-presidential candidate) claim to fame. It's time to end it.
26
I don't know how much this helps, but I usually leave the tip in cash and charge the actual meal to my credit card. I figure the server is more likely to actually get his/her tip if they can slip it into their pocket.
7
Not likely.
To paraphrase the owner class: "Raising the tipped wage would hurt small businesses, is ultimately bad for workers, and will exacerbate income inequality."
Do you ever feel like you're being lied to?
10
Having worked in the restaurant industry when I was younger, I am one that considers himself to be a "generous" tipper. I know that the work provided is not easy and workers are often underpaid. Additionally, I compare the level of service provided in New York City bars and restaurants, where employees are rewarded for quick and pleasant service, to that of European bars and restaurants where they are not, and there is a stark contrast.
However, I think the fact that tips are now expected, whether the service is good or bad, easy or hard, on everything from Uber rides to deli counters, is letting things get a little out of hand. Particularly as the aps often begin recommending tips at 20% as the low end of the range (like in NYC taxi's and Delivery.com).
If a tip is expected, or worse, mandatory, it isn't a tip.
17
Absolutely right. A mandatory tip is a surcharge. Probably not all of it going to the service provider.
1
I think The Times has a fundamental misunderstanding of what the minimum wage is for. It was never meant to guarantee Americans a certain standard of living or even a certain annual income. Rather, the minimum wage is a form of government protection. It protects employees from being “ripped off” by their employers. That said, tipped employees don’t need the same level of government protection as non-tipped employees, because much of their earnings come directly from the customers. Further, they are taken at their word how much they earned. They can easily evade income taxes and often do. And they can easily avoid not sharing a fair percentage of their tips with other workers. The federal government isn’t going to assert that these folks who have so much power over their day to day earnings deserve the same level of protection as their non-tipped colleagues who are totally dependent on a flat wage coming from their employer.
7
The thing is, we do have the same protections. Employers are mandated to pay us minimum wage if the difference between out wage and minimum wage isn't made up for with tips. And we do determine how much we make by how hard we work and it is very rewarding. As far as tax evasion, with computer systems these days servers are claiming their tips, the computer makes them. No one is making out with $100's of dollars at the end of a shift. Depending on location a significant amount more than 50% of people pay with credit cards and everything is monitored.
I own a restaurant. Tipped staff are by far our highest paid employees, earning much more than the rest of the staff. Paying them more just means higher prices and lower wages to everyone else.
11
"Paying them more just means higher prices ..."
Tips raise the price of a meal, so the only difference is that the tipper decides the price instead of the restaurant owner.
"... and lower wages to everyone else."
How does that follow? Do you already pay your employees more than the minimum wage?
3
Where I live, work and own restaurants we do in fact pay more than the minimum wage. There's a labor shortage here. We start employees nearly 50% above legal minimum wage just to get them in the door. My servers make double what the average kitchen worker makes. I encourage them to share the wealth but I cannot, by law, require it.
1
I own restaurants and no untipped worker makes as little as minimum wage. The nation is at full employment, there's no way to retain people without compensating them. Labor cost must be kept at 20% maximum, so if tipped servers get an increase, either prices go up, other wages fall or jobs are eliminated.
1
The US is the only place in the world where people demand a tip.
7
Articles like these are written by people who have no experience working in a restaurant.
They are also full of quotes from industry groups, government agencies and restaurateurs. They cite “statistics.” What they lack are comments from actual restaurant employees.
In an article about labor and management it’s usually considered basic journalism to seek comments from labor.
I put myself through college working as a waiter. I was paid $2.01 an hour. I earned between $200-$400 a day. That was in the early 1980s. It covered tuition, books rent food gas insurance etc. I made a lot more than all my friends who had already graduated.
I have a friend in NYC who works as a waiter. He earns well over $100,000. He works 3 days a week.
In the 1990s I owned my own restaurant - a casual food, bohemian restaurant - nothing fancy. I was required to guarantee minimum wage. That meant if it was slow and a waiter didn’t earn enough tips to take home minimum wage I had to cover the spread. It never mattered. My crew easily cleared well over $150 a shift. Bussers consistently earned $100 - on top of the hourly wage I paid.
The key word in “minimum wage” is MINIMUM. Tips allow for unlimited earnings. Minimum wage ensures just that. Servers will get paid the absolute minimum.
Tips are effectively commissions. If it’s ok for a real estate agent, car salesman, or shoe salesman to earn a commission it’s reasonable for a server who sells you food to earn a commission.
15
Always tip in cash (though I hate the tiping system altogether).
The less the owner has in his or her greedy hands the less they can manipulate or withhold it. A small "takeout/over the counter restaurant" in my town withheld any tip added to cards saying it was to pay the "book accountant" because it was then part of the accountants job actually figure out how allocate those tips. What a joke.
6
The Magazine section of NYT has an article “The Tipping Equation” that provides many anecdotes where the promise of tip often leads some boorish customers to act or talk in unacceptable ways to the wait staff, waitresses in particular. This is sexual harassment where the customers use their power, though temporary and fleeting, to subject the wait staff to unwanted advances. I suggest that restaurants prominently display a plaque at their entrance that says “Customers are always right but our staff has a right to decent behavior from customers “. This admonishment is no more impolite than the one often found in the restaurants that say “We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone”. Second, just do away with the tip and build the tip into the price of the menu items. Customers also come out ahead because in the high sales tax states such as California, customers do not have to pay additional 20% to an average 8.5% tax on menu items. A $100 food and beverages get taxed at 8.50%. This makes the customers pay tip on $108.50 rather than on just $20.00 on the $100 of food and beverages. Adding tip to the menu items will deter tip based harassment and also save customers money by not paying 20% additional tip on the state & local taxes.
1
I was always taught to tip ONLY on the food/beverages — not on the taxes or fees added to the check. It’s a fairly simple calculation (one that all the payment aps ignore).
2
Your math is wrong. If tips are built in, the tip will also be taxed. As it stands now, you have the option of tipping on the pre-tax total.
1
I give the Waiter/Waitress cash and tell them to pocket it! I don't trust owners of busenesses as the only reason they are there is to make as many bucks as they can.
The owners should have to pay ALL of there help a living wage!
5
There truly is no bottom to how low many businesses will go in the pursuit of more money. A happy employee is actually good business. Ford knew this when he paid his workers enough to be able to buy the car they were making. Sadly those days are long gone.
12
Lately we have seen more and more restaurants automatically include the tip in the bill.
Then they leave a line for an "additional tip".
My guess is that diners that don't carefully study the bill wind up adding 20% on top of everything.
5
Guess again. It's not that it doesn't happen. But restaurants that include tip generally have workplace policies that servers call the fact to customers' attention if they essentially double-tip. Neither the restaurant nor the individual server have any interest in the YELP! storm that comes if customers get home and feel deceived and cheated.
1
Its not just people who work in restaurants that can be paid under (way, way under) the minimum wage. People who work in agriculture and people who are "interns" can/are paid less. I'm sure there many other categories where underpay is the norm.
8
There seems to be a complete misunderstanding of how tips work. In Europe they use a "tronc" where tips are pooled and then distributed to the staff. This is NOT theft. Your tip, for better or worse, tends to be linked to the cost of the meal (I detest the assumption that it should be automatic since it removes any element of incentivisation). The total yield from tips is thus a function of the rate and the level of turnover. Do you seriously think that the server is the only determinant of turnover? The European system recognises this and rewards the "back office staff" (the chefs, busboys, receptionist etc). What you then have is essentially a profit sharing system (sounds a lot better). If a restaurant is a huge success do you think that servers should take all the tips? Realising that this would result in hundreds of thousands of dollars in income for top restaurant servers?
3
I wish there was some way to know that an owner was going to take a tip that I leave for my server. The owner might not even be onsite during my meal, and yet I am supposed to be comfortable with giving him/her money in addition to the amount I already pay for my meal? This is so wrong on so many levels.
3
Helpful: leave a tip in cash. No guarantee it won’t be skimmed but it’s much more likely to go in server’s pocket directly.
5
If you cannot afford to tip a minimum of 20%, you should eat at home. And I always tip in cash. I do not trust the owners to properly account for and distribute tips added to a credit card bill.
11
No, these people have a job and they accepted the job knowing that they were being paid $X.XX/hr. If there is not exceptional service beyond bringing me the food and drink, why should I give more than X%? Don't tell me I need to give out 20% for the expected service.
4
I agree. And on the receipt’s line for “Tip”, I always write “Cash”, so it doesn’t look like I tipped zero. I hate to look cheap.
To the "well if you don't like tipping umpteen percent on top of the price of your meal, you can't afford to eat out!" crowd: Exactly. As customers have become expected to pick up more of the labor cost relative to the employer, the effective price of the meal has gone up--and many people have been priced out of dining out, at least as much and as nicely. What do you think happens to restaurant staff when customers stop coming because the newly presumed 20% (which used to be only for truly exceptional service above and beyond the call) is too rich for their budgets?
10
The virtue signalling in these comments is laughable. "Of course, I always tip 20%." Why? Why not a flat rate for a comparable service? If anything, one should be paying less the higher the price of the meal: my steak is no heavier than your chicken salad sandwich.
5
I own a small restaurant. Would love to get rid of tipping or be allowed to spread tips to the back of the house. Believe it or not most small restaurants would prefer a non-tipping system but so far the experiments haven't worked: waitstaff simply leave to go to a restaurant with tipping because they make more there. Commenters seem confused about how it works. It is mostly not the waitstaff that suffer, it is the cooks. 20% of the money coming in to the business is mandated to go to servers. The only way the system can change is if tipping is not allowed at all, anywhere. Brave companies have tried it in order to give raises to their chefs and it has not worked because they could not keep waitstaff! The tone here and on other sites is that we owners are just greedy if we want to end tipping because we want to keep the extra income gained by raising prices in compensation. But I pose the question like this : In what other industry does 20% of the income get put exclusively into the hands of a small number of employees, by law?
The customer pays either way. This issue is: who gets the money? If I raise my prices 20% and do not allow tipping I can put servers on an hourly wage similar to cooks but I can guarantee that they will not be satisfied because it will be a pay cut.
The restaurant lobby has been complicit too because they want menu prices to look as low as possible and they are powerful. This is really a question for legislators. Don't hold your breath.
24
Exactly right. We greedy restaurant owners are out to line our pockets off the sweat of the proletariat. Of course, I work at minimum 2 times the hours of the hardest working waiter, make a third as much per hour, and take all the risk, but it such a swell and rewarding “profession”. Still, after 35 years of this, I certainly appreciate the NYTimes Editorial Board, undoubtably culinary pundits who can’t chop an onion and wouldn’t know a bain marie from a bedpan, opining on how my profession should work.
7
On point smalldive. I enjoy so many expert opinions from diners who have no idea of the costs associated with owning a restaurant. In fine dining and if you are killing it....the restaurant is lucky to net 11-14%. Now tack on their debt to payed back. I seriously doubt any of these potential elite Yelpers would be willing to pay the prices for food if the system was adjusted to make the "fair-wage" petitioners happy.
3
Why can't you restaurant owners just do the right thing and pay people the minimum wage as required by law?
1
We don't want to pay a fair price. As I sit here wearing my socks, briefs, shirt and pants made in China, typing on a laptop designed in the USA but made in China, I wonder why we can't pay the people who prepare and serve our foods a living wage. Make sure things are cheaper for me and I won't be concerned about the person involved in its creation. The problem is that we have to face the poorly paid people that serve us food in restaurants. Boy, I miss unions.
23
What server in this article complains about not making enough money? There is nothing in this article that comes from a servers mouth at all. I got into this industry knowing the deal, just like everyone else. These comments are mostly not coming from servers at all. Everyone else wants to decide how this industry should change but does not know what will actually happen. Are all the people saying tipping should end going to help feed the families of the people who are waiting for the culture around this to adjust like they say it will? When they reduce my pay and I am only guaranteed minimum wage (which I am actually already guaranteed) and you run this experiment of change on my life who is going to pay my mortgage? I have made financial commits based on what I make now and for people to think its okay to abruptly change that doesn't make any sense to me.
1
One only needs to look at the airline industry in America to see how bad customer service can be when the employees don’t work for tips. A 15-20% tip is common etiquette in food service. So, when menu prices go up, the tipped employees automatically get a raise. Not so for the rest of the staff. But, the tipped employees effectively work for the customers. So, if they aren’t good at their jobs, they’re not going to make much money. And that’s how it should be. I was once a tipped employee myself, who received a sub-minimum wage. I didn’t complain about “wage theft”, because I was good at my job, I took care of my customers, and they took care of me.
7
Flight attendants are NOT food servers. Their first job is safety.
I wish we as Americans could go back to the attitude I learned from my mother. All work deserves respect and everyone providing us a service deserves courtesy.
Fight attendants should be recognized as having special training and skills. Restaurant workers should all get a living wage.
8
".. how bad customer service can be when the employees don’t work for tips."
Rubbish!
There are heaps of service industries where people give good service despite not being tipped.
I bet you don't tip doctors or nurses when/if you have to go to hospital.
And as Marie points out, tipping airline attendants is completely out of place. Pilots don't get tipped, either, for the same reason.
If, as you say, U.S. airline provide bad customer service, it's because of the cost-cutting airlines engage in to stay competitive.
Always give the tip in cash directly in the hand of the server - no problem.
4
In the majority of restaurants, the money is collected and pooled at the end of the night. This does not guarantee any security for honest placement. If the owners want to cheat......
2
Completely untrue. In NY state it is illegal for owners to take servers' tips for any purpose.
Where I live, tipping is optional and an appreciation of particularly good service. In America it appears to be a wage subsidy. Why should restaurant staff be singled out to be “paid” in this way. It makes no sense except, I suppose,to the proprietors who escape paying a proper wage.
14
@Roderick: Exactly.
Reading through the comments I'm struck by the number of people who are guilt-tripped into tipping generously because they feel the wait staff is underpaid. Something's wrong with that picture.
4
Um.
Am I the only one who thinks it might be jolly to find out what Monte's Kitchen in Amenia, NY,
https://www.ruralintelligence.com/food_section/food_articles_news/montes...
owned by the wife of Donald Trump's brother, pays its waiters and waitresses, or whether it has mounted any discreet lobbying against -- or, for that matter for -- the pending New York State law?
3
They don't need the wife of Robert Trump to lobby. They have the other NRA.
https://www.prwatch.org/news/2014/04/12444/nra-political-spending
I could never pay anyone American minimum wage. I'd be too embarrassed. I'd prefer to think of myself as a real person, not some pathetic miser, snaffling such pitiful amounts of money from staff. Just look at the amounts of money involved here. The highest figure I can see is $13 an hour, for arguably some of the most thankless work on Earth and no indications of how that miserable amount of money is supposed to pay for anything. ... And "employment", aka paid slavery, is going to increase? Whoopee. Does anybody happen to know what's so great about that?
These are what you dare to call jobs? In a country where extravagance is a traditional sign of status and success, you can't even be bothered paying a credible living wage, and you have to steal these microscopic amounts? No wonder nobody wants to go to America any more. It's just too insane, cheap and nasty. The coincidence is that the insanity seems to be linked directly to the cheapness and nastiness.
24
With wages now naturally rising and the labor supply tightening, market forces may make minimum wages largely irrelevant.
With at will market employment we can quite any time we feel we are not paid our market value, and be terminated if our employer sees our market value as less than our pay. The way you know you are paid less than Market value is someone else will pay you more for the same work, and underpaid people often do just that.
However, this fails when the objective is for some to get paid above their market value at the expense of others.
In recent years I have seen automation in ordering and paying for food which provides a means of replacing workers,
Perhaps the best solution is to improve the labor market by cutting regulations and corporate taxes as we have. Increased demand for labor increase pay and that seems to be happening now.
More and more retail jobs are being automated out and fobidding people from working below a minimum wage will only accurate this. Unlike decades ago, I generally fill my own gas and occaisionally self checkout. Checkout is now very efficient either way with laser scanners reading prices and taking inventory, I am seeing touch screen ordering and paying more and more.
I believe the best solution is high demand for labor rather than forbidding people for working below a wage which may insure unemployment for the least skilled.
4
I love the move towards tip free restaurants. The staff seem less stressed, and there is no extra calculation required to settle the bill. I go out of my way to look for these spots now.
7
Any restaurant where waiters currently make more than min wage cause of tips would be able to pay their wait staff about the same after getting rid of tipped wages. Restaurants will raise prices to include tips to pay waiters a fair hourly wage. Customer pays the same as now. Menu prices would be honest, and staff get a reliable income they can live off of. It takes the guesswork (and stress) off the menu for everyone, especially workers.
People against getting rid of tips often assume that restaurants with menu prices high enough to produce tips that add up to more than min wage will only pay waiters min wage, but that is not what usually happens. Look up what those restaurants in no tipping areas pay their waiters, it's usually above min wage. Like any SUCCESSFUL business whose quality of their product depends on their workers, restaurants will pay their staff more to maintain the quality of their product (food) and to justify the prices they want to charge.
Plus you can still tip if you want, but it will be because you actually think the staff deserve it, not because you are expected to.
Hourly wage systems aren't perfect, but it is a better system then our current system. And we can think of solutions to make wage systems better, for example, instead of tips maybe waitresses can get a 15% commission on drinks, solving concerns ppl have about staff losing $ on drinks.
What happened to American ingenuity? Now we see problems and say "we can't do better." But we can.
3
It also costs the employer less to pay the difference to the server than it cost the client to pay it in the tip. For the employer, it's a write-off-able cost of doing business, instead of an after-tax dollar expense.
10
In east Asia, tipping is virtually non-existent. And you don't get better service than in Japan. It would take a shift in thinking, sure. But it's not impossible to pay people well, do well as a restaurant, and have excellent service.
10
In the United States of America....with all of the regulations, permitting, and self-entitlement: IT IS IMPOSSIBLE.
1
It's interesting to see how much commentary on operating a business is coming from a paper who's demonstrated dismal understanding of operating their own business.
We live in CA where there's an opposing issue. Waiters receive full minimum wage at a minimum, which I think is great. But then tip rules discriminate heavily toward the wait staff and away from the kitchen (which is where a good part of the experience that a diner is tipping for also originates).
To me, it seems unfair that a kitchen banking on the name and talent of the chefs is handing a lions sum of the check to the wait staff, but that's the case in many establishments. I'd love to see all the rules associated with tipping just go away so the distortions that are different for every concept can go away and people can opt into employment in arrangements they're comfortable signing up for.
Free markets solve many debates. I'm amazed at how little faith this paper puts in allowing adults to choose the terms of their employment.
2
The restaurant doesn’t hand anything to wait staff. The customers do.
Redistributing income from one employee to pay another employee is the exact opposite of a free market.
That’s exactly what restaurateurs want. They want the tips intended for servers to be redistributed to their back of house employees so they don’t have to pay them more out of their own end.
That happened in NYC at Danny Meyers restaurant. The day after the new minimum wage law was put into effect tips got pooled and split - cooks and dishwashers got a share. Waiters went from earning $300 a night to earning $15 an hour.
If cooks want to earn more they can be waiters or investment bankers. They choose to be cooks.
8
It's curious how so many people, for one proffered reason or another, seem distressed that waiters and waitresses are making more than they should.
What VG would like to do away with is the California requirement that tip out go only to those in the "chain of service" -- typically servers, bartenders, hosts, and busers/runners -- so that restaurant owners might be free to raise the effective wages of their kitchen staff and cashiers by reaching into the pockets of their other workers.
This is different than the tip issue that the contemplated changes in NY state regulation seek to address, which generally pertain at restaurants where tips are crumbs and don't make up for a sub-minimum wage. This is a case of owners at more thriving restaurants intent upon reaching into the flush cookie jar for themselves, to meet their business expenses. It's also a case of penny wise pound foolish, for however great one thinks one's chef and food are, it's the servers and those in the"chain of service" who, at the transaction point, push the difference between loss and profit.
3
Your assertion about the Times was unnecessary while, at the same time, having the benefit of being completely false. Good job!
1
In Seattle, I increasingly see set "service charges" added to my meal instead of a tip line. I love it, even though it's for more than I would normally tip. It's the responsibility of the employer, not the customer, to pay workers.
6
Here in Australia, we have thing called "the price." You pay it if you want the item(s). What the business does with that is up to the business. Who cares about extra addons? Just roll it in to the "price."
Huh? That is still you, the customer, paying the tip, i.e. The "service fee". What you're describing doesn't change anything at all.
1
While it's true that the mandate of any business if to make profit above all else---including employing people---it's also true that any business which cannot afford to pay workers more than minimum wage is one with a deficient business model. If a businessperson doesn't realize that constantly training new hires has a negative effect on productivity, he/she is certainly doomed to fail. High staff turnover, after all, is most often the result of paying low wages.
The difference between dumb and smart business folk is how they view labour. While the former view labour as a cost, the latter view it as an asset. If some are outraged over the idea of fast food workers making $15 per hour, shouldn't they be further appalled by the notion that we should essentially subsidize business ineptitude by keeping wages low? It goes both ways folks.
9
Well said. And without even getting to the tax code subsidies of bad business models. However much regulation can get out of hand and too granular, a good many labor regulations are just good long-term business sense, unfortunately necessary because many business owners are not fully long-term profit driven. A great many, particularly small business owners, restaurants being an archetypal case, are in it as much "to be the boss." That is, they are in it for the petty tyranny, not just for the profits. True, they could be allowed to just fail, as many do, but we the taxpayers have a stake in businesses being basically well run, which includes a living wage for employees who, otherwise, have to be helped to make ends meet on our collective dime.
High turnover is due to a lack of maturity among the US workforce, their resultant entitlement mentality, our failure to instill a sense of loyalty and duty in our youth and the far left indoctrination that passes for education these days. No one seems to have any self-discipline anymore. Being offered a position should result in a certain level of dedication. Ones tine at a job should be at least as long as a military enlistment My employer has suffered 200-400% turnover each and every one of the nearly forty years I've been here. As a 1099 manager, those I supervise make 1.5-3 times what I do yet it's never enough for them. They continue to cling to the outdated belief that their labor is suddenly worth one and a half times as much after the magical fortieth hour. They think that they're entitled to the vacation time, sick days, raises, travel, family and home that our employer and his family have earned by owning a business.
1
I've supervised a number of youth over the past decade, and will concur that many so called members of the " Millennial" generation have a warped sense of entitlement. The fact that they've never been taught failure, in addition, raises doubt about their work ethic.
That said, I've also supervised an equal number of Temporary Foreign Workers, whom were employed in areas of fictitious underemployment, during Stephen Harper's tenure as Canadian PM. Reflecting back, management initially got what it wanted: cheap exploitable labour. Shortly after, however, complaints concerning the dearth of productivity from TFWs surfaced. I remember trying to explain that this wasn't the consequence of inherent sloth from said workers. Instead, I pointed out two things. First, the TFWs cam from cultures unaccustomed to working on an individualistic basis. Second, they came from countries with a surplus of labour, and were thus used to having 5 people do the work of one. Rather than admit to shortsightedness, management merely exclaimed, NEVER AGAIN!
Another thing smart business people understand is that one gets what one pays for, whereas silly business folk fail to appreciate this---oh well.
If tipping is a good practice for restaurant wait staff, why isn't it equally good for people who sell us shoes, respond to our questions when we make calls for help to our internet service providers, online merchants, etc., who provide lawn services, check us out at retail and grocery stores, take care of our plumbing needs, and so on? We are an interactive society that operates in large part by people doing things that are for the immediate or ultimate benefit of others, and with few exceptions they do these by being paid a wage. There's no reason for it to be different for waiters, taxi drivers, barbers, and the like.
Another reason tipping should be abandoned is because it is irrational, particularly in regard to restaurant servers. Who, years ago, through a dart an hit 10% on the board? And who later hit the 15% mark, and more recently 20? What have percentages got to do with anything? Have an enlightened group of economists determined that the initial 10% was too low for serversto earn a living wage? Or that 15% for a while, now 20%, can be reasonably correlated to cost of living increases? Europe has gone to a rational model, and we should follow it.
11
I love all of the people with crocodile tears and indignation because no one told them tipping is part of eating out. Yes the law needs to change, but until it does, you need to tip. If you can't afford 20% (yes, 20%), don't go out to a sit-down restaurant. Go to Chipotle like everyone else.
5
So people who work in restaurants would be better off if everyone unwilling to voluntarily leave an extra 20% stays away? Somehow the logic escapes me.
10
I love being told what to do, really I do. If I have no intention of returning to a restaurant, I don't tip at all ... then I pay off my student loan with the money I save by stiffing people without an education to do anything but wait tables. Welcome to late capitalism, where we all have our crosses (or plates) to bear.
3
We’d be better off because cheapskates aren’t filling our booths and people with class can get a table.
3
Compared to Europe, where service is often included in the bill, eating out in the US feels rushed (plates yanked away as soon as they’re empty) with lots of interruptions (Everything okay? Would you like some more water? etc.) and pressure to leave soon after the meal. The reason is the not so subtle attempt to turn tables over ASAP and restaurant personnel trying too hard to please, resulting in constant interruptions of a private conversation which should be half of the dining experience. I can’t wait for this to change.
13
This is off-topic, but indulge me: I notice that conservative voters always complain they are being-overtaxed, mainly caused by the Democrats. Even when the Republicans reduce taxes, along will come yet another Republican candidate urging even more tax reduction. More tax reduction. Taxes are the national bogeyman.
Here is my idea: How about no mandatory taxes, and instead allow the American public to tip federal workers. Pay as you wish, when you want, and thus to show that you appreciate what a good job the American government is doing, while withholding payment from services not appreciated. This could be apportioned according to individual government agencies, including the Department of State, Education, Veterans Affairs, Defense, Health and Human Services, and so on.
How much easier. No compulsory payment, but instead simply for all American wage earners to pay what they feel is deserved. There now. How much better everyone would feel.
7
The US economy is not healthy; the "tips" issue helps illustrate why. The economy is wildly distorted and financialized, while suffering from many decades of abuse by tax collectors, regulators, banksters and general corporate hardheartedness. Consider how so much of what politicians and economists call "job growth" in the US happens in the so-called "hospitality industry." This, after decades of losing well-paid, skilled manufacturing jobs to low wage, foreign jurisdictions. More recently, formerly lucrative service industry jobs have been replaced by software -- think of travel agents, and even many lawyers. A raise? Hey... what's that? There's a wage-race to the bottom for what... about 95% of workers? And now the issue pops up with wait and service staff in restaurants... It says something -- something very bad -- about the US economy that wages are tight or falling across the fastest-growing sector of employment.
6
I read several comments but was unable to find one from someone who actually IS a restaurateur. I'm particularly amused by the commenters who cite FRANCE, of all places, as a model.
French unemployment is DOUBLE the U.S. rate. (And in case no one has noticed, their President has made overturning the French economic model his signature project.) So, if you must, Lecture away. But OMG, Please, Please! Don't cite France as a model for ANYTHING.
4
Come on, they do make better cheese.
1
Live their bread but their fries are a guilty pleasure.
Perennial problems in the restaurant and also in many retail businesses like gas stations, repair shops, etc. - tax is collected from customer, but never remitted to state. tips are collected, but not given to employee, cash wages paid to employee, but not reported to IRS by either employee or employer, and so on. Every agency knows the abuse, but they will not act!
Tips have also become ridiculous in this country that we have more places expecting tips and we are confused. I feel dignity of labor is compromised in the tipping process.
7
Pay waiters fairly so we can do away with guilt tipping. I mostly tip because I know how poorly the waiters are paid, not because I've had a particularly good experience. In fact there have been times when the experience was quite bad but for reasons beyond the waiter's control. I'd much rather pay more up front for my meal with the knowledge that the waiters are making a fair wage than be guilted into paying a tip.
9
I really think the Euro-model of no-tips but paying servers and kitchen staff a living wage is the way to go. Whenever I've eaten out in Europe I've found the service to be exemplary - waitstaffs there seems more 'professional', for want of a better word.
Additionally, any waiter or waitress will tell that the one group they hate to see come through the door more than any other are Jehovah's Witnesses. Their religion forbids them from celebrating - and exchanging gifts - on birthdays and Christmas, and tips are also seen as a 'gift', and forbidden. So no tips would eliminate this friction point between religion and commerce.
6
First thing to understand about the restaurant concept. It is a pointless societal luxury, one that drives up the cost of food in general, because what is purchased to be sold in them would otherwise be sold in grocery stores at lower prices from lower demand. It is a redistribution of wealth on the communistic concept from people who can afford to eat in restaurants to people who work in them, done on a capitalist entrepreneurial model. No one who cares about their health would eat in one because you have no idea where the food come from, how it was prepared, etc. Restaurants are extremely bottom line driven, and use the cheapest ingredients, and as has been pointed out here, exploit workers, and are the employers of many illegal aliens. And yet over half of them fail very quickly.
7
Many excellent points.
4
Why don’t we tip the clerk in the store; the nurse or doctor; the bank teller; the receptionist,etc. there is no logic. Raise wages and pay these restaurant workers folks like others. There will be issues and complaints. People will get over it. Change is not easy.
11
Bag fees. Resort fees. Tips. Car undercoating. Carrier line fees. They are all scams to make sure the advertised price is not really what you pay.
14
Having just returned from a blissful trip to Australia, i can tell you the food and the service in Melbourne restaurants easily , and routinely , eclipse anything in NY, and a livable minimum wage and no tipping policy are two of the keys. You know you aren't in Kansas when the wait staff refuses a tip and admonishes a visiting yank not to spoil things.
11
This is unrealistic, because most tipped employees don’t report all of their earnings to the IRS. Everyone knows it, including the government. When you leave money on the table for a waiter/waitress, the money is more like “under the table.” So, it’s unfair that other employees, and the business itself, have to pay taxes on every single penny of their earnings while tipped employees get away with tax evasion.
6
Since the NY Times Editors know what people deserve, let's set up a national price commission. It would be chaired by the editors, and it would fix the prices for all US goods, commodities, and services. The commission would also determine all production levels, and who would produce each product and service. In time, say every five years, the prices and production limits would be adjusted to reflect new economic circumstances. This would surely provide us with all the economic outcomes that we desire and deserve.
6
But, but...with all this work thrust upon them, when you the NYT Editors find the time to Lecture us on so many other topics?
4
That sounds about right. I delivered pizzas briefly in up-state New York. $2.25 an hour plus tips. The average tip per delivery was usually $3.00 or less. You might make 3 deliveries an hour if you hurry. I quit because the job wasn't worth the mileage on my car much less my rent. Even as a 19 year old, I had better things to do with my time.
You have to watch out though. Even with stable hourly wages, many establishments still abuse tip-based employees in other ways. If you up the wage, owners will often only tip employees out in percentages. For instance, waiters will get $9.00 an hour but only take home 10%. The employer basically just passes the wage burden off by garnishing the tips. The best performing employees obviously suffer the worst.
Be careful how you go about implementing these changes.
1
There's no shortage of customers in metro NYC for whom value is more important than price.
But since NY is a large state with plenty of economically stagnant areas, I'd like to know if there are significant differences in earnings or job losses between affluent and less affluent areas of CA.
Perhaps more restaurants may set up systems similar to those of "Bobby's (Flay) Burger Palace" or “Shake Shack”.
"Bobby’s" gives you a number display the servers use to deliver your order upon your upfront payment which does not include a tip option. From what I've seen most customers do not give a cash tip to the servers.
“Shake Shack”, which also does not provide a tip option for your upfront payment, has customers retrieve their food when a beeper they give you signals it's ready.
Could such a similar system be tweaked with the restaurant advising customers they will collect VOLUNTARY tips, ALL of which will be deposited in a trust fund that would defray the medical and sick leave expenses of its NON-MANAGEMENT employees.
Finally, the trust fund would be administered by elected non-management employees who would make sure the restaurant is depositing all of the tips in the trust account and who would also discourage their peers from taking more than their fair share of reimbursements.
Part of me is confused by the whole conversation. My tip is a gift directly from me ( customer ) to the server, in appreciation
for services rendered. Why aren’t the restaurant owners in jail for theft? Can I take the pots and pans when I leave?
7
I don't think if people knew their tips were going to the restaurant's owners through a deduction in the minimum wage they have to pay worker that they would continue to tip.
1
No kidding. And no increase to minimum wage when CEO’s are getting huge tax breaks!
Ah, the making great of America.
7
Your concern for the "poor" servers is unfounded. I can give you countless examples of servers making well over $30/hour in tips. They aren't "poor". And if they were being underpaid for their work, they would leave. Servers get paid based on skill. That's how it should be. If they aren't making much money, maybe they should consider another profession. That's why ALL minimum wages should be abolished.
4
Push for no-tipping restaurants, especially in light of the ultra-right-wing congress wanting to pass laws that allow owners to keep all the tips and do whatever they want with them - even just keep them for themselves - a total disconnect from the service tippers assume they are paying for.
In most no tipping restaurants the employees are happy, though some say the diners are not because they are so used to tipping they think the employees are not getting their due. A learning curve, I guess.
1
Restaurant and bar owners can be real enemies of their employees. I was in the bar business for thirty years and I met many unscrupulous owners. I owned three bars in the 70’s, 80’s, 90’s, stopping in 2002. Although I could pay 50% of the minimum wage because of the tip offset, I paid the minimum wage plus tips. I kept my employees much longer than all the other owners I knew because of a better approach to my co-workers. Loyalty works both ways.
6
But that should be your choice not the mandate of some cubicle dwelling bureaucrat who has never had to turn a profit.
1
Most tipped employees do not get much in the way of benefits, either. No paid time off, no retirement plan, typically no decent health insurance. The sub-minimum wage leads businesses to add all kinds of "side work" than can include cleaning the dining room, restrooms, and washing windows. It's another way to get cheap help.
10
Eliminating tips is not the answer for most restaurants, at least as Meyer's experiment has shown so far (and he is in a unique position, with he/his company having received the proceeds of the Shake Shack IPO just before launching the no-tipping experiment)--servers and bartenders (at least in larger cities) don't like it (just ask them), nor do customers (based on anecdotal data).
Wage theft is illegal, and the penalties are severe (at least within NYS/NYC). While there are restaurants that willfully engage in this behavior, most larger companies dedicate significant resources towards compliance, but with many complicated and overlapping laws, it can be difficult to ensure 100% compliance 100% of the time. Perhaps the whole system needs to be redesigned--looking at how things work in Europe, where things seem to work better for both restaurants and employees.
Eliminating the tip credit will likely take around 3.5-4 points out of profitability, with most NYC restaurants currently operating at net margins below 10-12%. Some will be able to absorb the additional costs, some will be able to pass it on to their customers, and others will not. Maybe there will be fewer restaurants and less competition for customers , maybe the shift towards QSR and "fast casual" will increase, and maybe rents will have to go down.
This subject is worthy of further discussion, but that discussion needs to include multiple individual stakeholders, not just industry and labor reps.
2
Don't forget to factor in the merchant card processing fee if you're paying by debit or credit card. Could be either side of 2%; closer to 3% for low volume restaurants with small average transactions. Not insignificant when it's getting netted out of servers' gratuities by the employer.
If I include the tip in a card transaction, I generally add an extra 2-3% to account for the processing fee.
3
I worked as a server in a restaurant at those wages in the 1990's. Our duties included coming in on our day off to refinish the floors, and for that we were paid $2.13 an hour. Needless to say, I am a very generous tipper.
8
Of course it is important to pay workers fairly. And I'm certain that there are lots of abuses in the industry. But there is another side to this story. Four of us went to dinner last night at an upscale restaurant last night. We had drinks, a bottle of wine, dessert. Nice meal, the service was good. The bill came to about $250 before tip. At 18% that's a $45 tip. We were there for 2 hours. Our server clearly was servicing other tables during that time although I don't know how many. I also don't know whether she was required to share her tips with other staff. If not, she made $22.50 per hour from our table alone just from the tip. If I had selected a $100 bottle of wine instead of a $50 bottle, she would have been up to $27.00 per hour. How is that fair?
4
Tips are generally required to be shared among the front end because they are subject to the wage subset but not with the vs k end who are required to be paid at least minimum wage.
1
Most likely she would have had to tip out bartenders, bussers, and runners out of that money. If she was working as a team with a back waiter, the tip would have been split. And if it's like most of the places i worked in NYC, she would still have to claim that tipped out money and pay taxes on it, as the runners and busboys were usually off the books.
5
Yes she probably had to tip out the busboy, dishwasher and bartender. If you were thinking about that 100 bottle then what do you care. Do you think she was making 100 an hour because of 4 tables? The restaurant is only busy for maybe 3 hours a night on weekends. The rest of the week they probably make half that. My wife tended tables for 10 years and you have no idea how hard that is. I bet most wait staff work harder then you in 3 hours then you do all week. How is that fair?
6
I've tipped on the generous side whenever I eat out(less and less now). However, I'm really perplexed about all these new "tipping jars" popping up all over the place. Why should I "tip" because someone gave me a coffee while I waited at the counter?
I also have never understood why you should tip a hairdresser (some of them make $65 plus per haircut, not to mention other services in addition). I know their wages depend on customers but I know really busy hairdressers who take constant customers straight through their day and they also work five-six days per week.
I'm especially peeved when I've moved (both local and long distance) and I have to supply water, etc. AND tip generously, usually both ends of the transaction because they often change employees by the end destination. I know a lot don't get a huge salary, but why, after me doing the packing (half their job) should I also be expected (in addition to a huge moving bill) to tip?
Other jobs pay little to slightly above minimum wage yet those workers don't get tips (office workers for one). Those workers serve the public--receptionists, especially don't make as much as they should for what they do, especially in a high-volume office, including medical facilities.
I tip, but I deeply resent it.
9
If it makes you feel any better..hair salons that pay you a salary are rare, and even the good old days of 50% commission is slipping away (if they do there are conditions and expenses). Most stylists "rent" their chair, or station, and are required to supply all the products, color,etc, they use. So as a stylist, I have to come up with (in Tampa Florida): $200 a week, tubes of color at $9 a pop, and shampoo, conditioner, and whatever products to use in your hair. My tools, capes, any advertising, business cards...all my responsibility. So in a place where a haircut is $30, approximately $240 in services have to be done before I get a dime. Also doesn't matter if I'm sick, there's a hurricane, holiday, great festivals and cool downtown things happening...rents still due. Salon owners have discovered a way to get their bills paid and if you're slow, oh well, not their problem. So it's not as rosy as you would like to believe unless you are fortunate enough to work in a salon where people are constantly walking in ready to spend. And that latest trend of women going back to grey and not coloring...money out the window! So don't fret. Most hairstylists struggle. A few dollars tip isn't going to make us rich.
4
Norton, I am confused about the tipping jars as well.
I guess if waiting at the counter for a sandwich to be
made up one might tip, but for just coffee? I always do
because I am too embarrassed not to. And all those
people who do not get tipped that you mentioned.
Maybe they should put out a jar. And I am thinking
why can't teachers put out tip jars on parent's night,
and why can't those hospital aids have tip pouches.
Certainly nurses should have tip jars. What about
School cafeteria staff, some kids have big allowances.
And the post office can certainly fit in tip jars
at the clerk windows, information booths every where.
Tip pouch for janitors everywhere as well. Oh we
cannot leave out the news paper stands either.
I know when I went horse back riding once,
I was expected to tip the mandatory rider
who went with me. I guess that makes sense
but I was not warned ahead of time, it
took me a while to get the hint. And I got
the feeling 10 bucks was barely acceptable.
I resent the tip jars everywhere as well
4
Lisa Randles--you have a really good point. The hairdressing salon I go to constantly pushes their products, especially during the holidays. I don't do coloring or other services(no need/want), but pay $65 per haircut. However, I do give my hairdresser a (generous tip) in cash and I refuse to see anyone else in the salon if she is out sick or for any other reason not available when I need an appointment. I imagine in more upscale salons the chair rental is very expensive. My hairdresser does work hard(on her feet) but I know she also enjoys her job, and attends advanced training sessions to improve her skills.
My main beef with "tip" businesses is that other businesses which pay low wages do not compensate with tips. Teachers, for example, often have to now use their own money for supplies. In my own case, as a receptionist, I was expected to dress in "champagne" attire while being paid a "beer" salary. No bonuses, either at any time of the year and extremely small raises every few years even though my duties expanded on a regular basis. I've now changed careers but will never get "tips" for my hard work.
1
Businesses are always complaining about how difficult it will be to do business if the workers and consumers are treated fairly. I've seen it in the area of debt collection.
Lenders complain that fair lending policies will make it more difficult for consumers to credit, but lenders keep lending money even in states where there is no wage garnishment, and in states where the homestead exemption in bankruptcy is unlimited and no judgment lien is permitted to attach to a personal residence. Lenders complain about Dodd-Frank and legislation that protects consumers, but when given free rein they cut corners, lend unwisely, and let the rest of us pick up the pieces because they're too big to fail.
Many readers are too young to remember that auto manufacturers opposed making seat belts standard equipment. They didn't like spending the extra money, because it upped the cost of the finished product and eliminated some marginal percentage of customers. Society picked up the tab in the human and financial cost of injuries that might have been prevented.
Businesses are always looking for a way to shift the costs to someone else. Sports teams expect the taxpayers to build them a stadium. In a truly "free" market, the entrepreneur would pay every cent of the cost of providing the goods and services, price the goods and services accordingly, and succeed or fail based on whether consumers thought the goods and services were worth the price.
30
*as other have observed: i use casual dining places where i place my order, carry my own food, and the only “work” being done is not actually “service”—yet more and more often (including panera starbucks and other fast food/cafeteria style places) there seems to be a new expectation of tipping. no, sorry—pay these workers higher wages.
*rest rooms in the mall now have tip jars.
*will “tip” lines now start to show up on receipts at non food shopping establishments?
*pre calculated tips on receipts **start** at 18%, and in most places that amount is calculated including the sales tax. used to be that 15% was considered a good tip. i only tip 18 or 20% if the service was exceptional. it’s usually between 15 and 18 percent. sometimes between 18 and 20 percent.
*always, ALWAYS leave cash tips for hotel housekeeping. i leave a note on an envelope for them. so they KNOW it is there for them. it’s shocked me some of the people i know who don’t do this.
*let’s pass legislation to pay all of the people in service industries an actual living wage. too much room for abuse not only by customers but also by managers and owners pocketing cash meant for the servers. then tips would be “extra” instead of *needed* to supplement sub par pay.
13
And for the sake of public health, medical insurance and sick leave. No one wants these people to work through a cold.
7
good heavens... you would think they are human
4
In my experience, most wait staff make in the range of $5 to $20 more an hour than people who actually earn minimum wage. Then, they under-report their tips on their taxes, further increasing the gap between them and someone actually earning minimum wage. And this is the great injustice that the editorial board felt they needed to weigh in on?
6
Don't exaggerate tip opportunities for under-reporting. Most restaurants track tips because there is "tip-out" from servers to other staff, tip pooling among servers on a shift, and the preponderance of tips are processed through credit card transactions. It's not all just untraceable cash in your server's pockets, for them to declare or not declare as they please. Even in the case of cash-only tips, the IRS has baseline requirements that restaurants do withholding and declare taxable income based on an average of 8% of total receipts for any period. In all but high-end restaurants, where credit cards make tips trackable by more precise measures, that's a fair average estimate after tip out. Probably most servers feel it is more than they actually retain. So, hate to burst your resentment bubble, but servers are not getting away with a tax scam.
It's really remarkable how much suspicion and hostility toward restaurant workers comes out without thinking whenever this issue is raised. You'd think most everyone had a stake in keeping them all poor, desperate and pitiable to feel better about themselves.
4
Really, the problem you see is the gap between people working at minimum wage and the waitstaff earning more? Maybe things look different from Toronto, but here in the states most of us think that way to solve that "problem" isn't paying waitstaff less.
1
In NYC, there was always a bit of dread with European customers. Many tended to leave 10% or less, or even only a dollar or two. And yet we still had to declare 15% of the bill for tax purposes. And tip out the busboys, bartenders, and runners to boot.
1
The tip debate always seems to boil down to a zero-sum equation: we assume that menu prices must go up in order to pay workers minimum wage. But this misses the underlying problem: restaurant owners are taking too much profit. And don't whine to me about the supposedly slim profit margins in the restaurant industry. If you really can't provide competitive prices, pay your workers a minimum wage, and earn a bit of profit for yourself, then you have no business pretending to be a businessperson.
7
I worked for the Wage and Hour Division for 27 years. The Fair Labor Standards Act, its primary law, had provisions in place to increase the percentage of the minimum wage (MW) employers would have to pay their employees over time. Amendments made during the Reagan Administration not only ended the progression towards removing the sub-minimum wage provision for tipped employees, but rolled it back to 50% of a MW lower than the one in effect at the time. Hence the grandfathered-in $2.125/hr pay rate despite any future increases in the actual MW. Thank the Republicans, the BBB, and the restaurant lobby.
As the article points out, studies almost uniformly prove that raising the MW does not cost jobs. It mainly effects the bottom line of business owners who are in the habit of slicing labor costs as their first line of profit-taking.
With the MW at its current $7.25/hr (thank Nancy Pelosi and the Democrats after 10 years of Republican refusal to raise the MW) and the tip sub-minimum, you, the customer, are footing some 71% of each tipped employee's pay directly, IF you tip adequately. If you don't tip or are a lousy tipper, your fellow diners are in essence picking up your stiffing those workers of their wages. Hardly a fair system. No other business gets such a bonanza, and no other consumers would support directly paying employee wages of the firms they buy from. It is time to end the tip credit scam permanently. Which means it is time to vote every Republican out of office.
6
It is too often racial discrimination that has shaped our "exceptional" policies in these United States. When federal minimum wage laws were first proposed southern states insisted that exceptions be made for certain service workers who were predominantly black at that time, waiters and waitresses and agricultural workers. America continues to reap the harvest of racial discrimination which poisons us all, not only African -Americans.
6
Subminimum wages should be illegal. When fired, these people don't get proper unemployment insurance.
5
If the business model can't pay a living wage for 40hr. wk. then it is a poor business plan.
Tipping just allows the capitalist to exploit the worker.
America should not be subsidizing Wall Mart with food stamps and welfare.
Any other waiters/waitresses note that the late Sunday morning crowd are the worst and least likely to tip?! Go figure.
8
"If the business model can't pay a living wage for 40hr. wk. then it is a poor business plan."
Yep. It's a business that runs on dirt cheap labor, (and a lot of it illegal), and it's going to ultimately be unsustainable as a business model. This is the elephant in the room that no one wants to talk about.
(Escalating rents are the other boogieman.)
1
After my wife became ill, many evenings on my way home from work, I'd stop to pick up dinner at local neighborhood restaurants in Charlotte NC. I became friendly with many of the restaurant staff at those restaurants I frequented. One evening, I stopped at a local Thai restaurant and ordered a cocktail as I waited for my dinner order to be prepared. I had watched one of the servers spend an inordinate amount of time attending to one table with a number of adults and two children. Eventually, they paid their bill and left. When the server went over to the table to pick up her tip, she became extremely upset. She had received two dollars and change for providing dinner service for this table. That was the evening that I learned that servers received $2 plus per hour as their minimum wage. She confided in me that the tips she made till that point in the evening wouldn't cover the gas she burned commuting to and from work. This was in 2010 or 2011. There's an easy out to the dilemma of tipping. Restaurants should add 15% to the invoice to cover service. Diners can, at will, leave an additional tip if they so desired. I thought President Lincoln did away with slavery? Not so, slave labor exists in the restaurant business and should be abolished immediately.
7
"Restaurants should add 15% to the invoice to cover service."
Some places do this. The problem is, it rarely all goes to the server, but gets split amongst the staff (front of house and back) as the manager or owner sees fit. That's wage theft.
1
an important point that seems to be missing from both the article and the replies is that the tipping model shifts risk from the restaurant owner to the wait staff.
this is the real shame behind the gig economy. the workers have unlimited risk and limited upside, and the investors have limited risk and unlimited upside.
it isn't strange the the turnover is so high for waiters positions. they have absolutely no security. their hours can be cut at a moments notice. if its slow they get sent home early, or worse make a pittance for a whole evenings work.
they might do ok on tips while they are young and attractive, and are constantly seeking the poshest position they can land. but 10, 20 years out things look pretty grim.
'choose a better job' really means, 'why don't you have enough money to begin with that you're on the losing side of this equation'
3
Gratuities are not wages, so withholding part of a tip, while deplorable, does not constitute "wage theft".
1
I've never understood why there is such a thing as tips in restaurants. It should be eliminated with restaurants having to pay staff at least minimum wage. It would remove all the inequities of the tipping system, make it more difficult for restauranteurs to steal money or bribe employees, and make for a more open dining experience - no additional charges.
The whole situation is out of hand, with any store selling coffee or food now having a tip jar. Soon, sales people in other fields will also want tips. And why not if their helping you? Why do only servers get tips.
Pay a living wage and eliminate tipping, as is done in many European countries!
10
I agree with most of your comment. But how would you feel if you are great at your job after 10 years and your coworker walked in yesterday and made the same money.
1
It's not that simple. My relative who does nails in a beauty salon likes it. She only pays income tax on the sub-minimum wage. The rest, is off the books, including her "real" pay in tips
It is a system well understood by her costumers. She does very well - bought a 3 room condo in Brooklyn - also for cash.
4
Danny Meyer is right. tipping is an insulting and outmoded model for service employees and a situation ripe for exploitation. it's also a complication in running an already challenging business. so, why do we have it at all?
there's always the old excuse that it's the way it's always been done, a weak argument that holds us back in so many areas of life. there's the reduced financial obligation on employers, but that could also be described as a special advantage one class of employers enjoys compared to others. tipping allows the marginal advantage of posting a lower menu price that customers' actual cost out the door. and then there are the various opportunities for abuse.
in modern societies, it is unjustifiable. many, if not most places around the world have service compris and we should, too.
1
Minimum wage is important, and can be addressed at the state-level. And the value of unionization for restaurant employees is obvious. More immediately, if you want to help, make sure every person you know who is eligible for the EITC is receiving it.
Let's call this what it is - an attempt to grab more wages for taxation. Most servers make more than they declare through cash tips, so they will get a double hit: lower tips because customers will be paying higher prices and know the server is getting paid more coupled with no more tax-free, off the books money. But, hey, the government get more money and there may be more options to unionize servers, so I am sure the Democrats will support this misguided effort.
1
Right, a waiter/waitress at the average small diner or chain restaurant making minimum wage will be on the hook for a YUGE income tax bill..
In reality, they'll be eligible for the EITC.
I thought one of the typical democrat bashing talking points was griping about the 48% of 'free-loaders' who don't pay income tax?
So which is it, will 'the government get more money', or will they be part of the 48% free-loaders?
I would like to see this discussion extended to hotels, where it is easy and obvious to tip the car attendants and porters, but no longer so clear about the chamber staff, who seem to be forgotten. They are disprortionately female and invisible and may often be single parents. It seems to me that at the very least, hotels should provide a secure way to tip this part if the staff if others receive tips.
Overall, I would prefer no tipping and uniform higher wages, but meanwhile, remember the chambermaids!!
2
I think the U.S. is one of a few developed countries that still make classes of employees rely on the archaic custom of tipping. In the gouge, cheat and lie environment in which we now exist, the idea put forth of allowing restaurant owners to "distribute" tips earned by servers is just one more example of how we are sliding back into the Nobles and Serfs mentality of the Brits.
Adding the actual cost of employees wages onto the bill will not increase your cost, assuming of course that you are not one of those who "don't believe in tipping."
The salesclerk in Macy's or your favorite liquor store doesn't have to bow and endure suggestive comments or gropes to get paid, so why so your waitress?
If you offer a tip to a server in New Zealand, as an example, she will most often hand it back to you, "We get paid well, but thank you anyway."
Don't our American workers deserve that same right to dignity?
5
$2.13 an hour. America - established on slavery, still sustained on slavery.
6
Do away with tipping altogether and require restaurants to pay an appropriate hourly wage. Too much potential there for abuse.
3
I owned a bar and realize you treat people just a a few degrees better then fair fair most workers will treat the owners right . If you are unfair , see your liquor costs skyrocket and food walk out the back door.
3
Look abroad and you'll find further evidence that the industry arguments are less about "protecting" their workers and more about greed.
2
The solution to this problem is a strict enforcement of a realistically high minimum wage indexed to inflation for all workers regardless of the size of the business. Tipping is an explosive practice from another century that must be ended.
If all employers are uniformly required to pay a living wage to all employees it will become the norm and a plethora of ethnic racial ageist and sexist discrimination and exploitation will be ended. The cost of serving bussing preparation and cleaning all needs to be built into the bill from the start based on a living minimum wage. If restaurant owners cannot make enough to stay in business and make a fair profit under such a system let them close their doors. They will not be missed.
1
i use tipping to reward the good. If I punish the bad it’s with 15%. I can count on one hand the times I’ve left nothing. I like the fact that good servers take the time to answer my questions. And I like rewarding them. I don’t eat out often, so I pay at least $25 for my meal and the mandatory bourbon on the rocks. I don’t speak for anyone else but me. But for me, tipping adds to the experience of dining out.
2
Waiters deserve a decent wage and they shouldn't depend upon tips. Tips should be over and above the Minimum. Who can live on 7.25 an hour. They have a very difficult job. I personally would throw food over some of the obnoxious people they have to put up with. No way could I smile and be pleasant serving people all day.
2
Many aspects to this tipping issue.
Cheapskates will always find excuses to rationalize their behavior. If you can't afford to treat servers decently, stay home and make your own dinner. The difference between tipping poorly and tipping well is actually quite small in the bigger picture.
As with many other things, people in other countries have figured out how to be fair to servers. And it works great for everybody. So this is not about practicalability. It's about exploitation.
And these days, with such obcene income Inequality (a small part of which is based on how hard or how smart someone works), tipping is no longer about service quality. It's more about fairness and a living wage in our increasingly unfair economic system. Yeah, life is sometimes unfair and incomes will never be equal. But you don't personally have to make things worse every time you go out to eat.
It's been said that if you're not part of the solution then you're part of the problem. And if you have the money to eat out, being part of the solution is really easy. It's not just about the money.
Think of it as a non-random act of kindness.
4
Tipping in many parts of Europe is wonderful - it barerly exist. In many places, a 15% tip has been incorporated into all tabs by law many years ago. The consequence is that customers round up a little and wait staff gets a fair wage, simple. Why is North America so backwards in so many ways? Oh, "freedoms", I forgot! One well- known travel writer tells of "the American obsession with over-tipping" in Europe, yeah right!
1
If a business can't manage to pay a minimum wage we have to question whether it is a real business. Certainly they are taking advantage of the government subsidizing them by their workers needing government assistance for basic living expenses.
3
Why is it that restaurants in Spain, France and Portugal (where we travel often and eat out daily) include service in their bill and are still able to keep the price reasonable, so that people eat out more often then they do in the States, and still make decent profits? We’re talking about all types of restaurants, from the traditional mom and pop establishments found on every block to Berasategui’s empire. And service is always as expected, excellent.
Tipping in these countries is not a normal state of affairs for the locals. Many never leave anything extra except the loose change if paying in cash, and seldom more than a few euros even when splurging on lunch. 5 euros would be considered highly unusual, and the idea of leaving 20% would be considered outrageous (Americans).
2
The Danny Meyers model results in customers having to pay sales tax on tips. This could add $50 or more to the tab at a place like Tavern on the Green. I don't object to the restaurant's prices, but I resent giving more money to the government. As a result, I don't eat in Danny Meyers' joints.
2
We need to end the tipping culture. Require a normal wage, and have the price of the meal be the real price. The only people I know who love tipping have tipped jobs at expensive eateries where tips result in a lot of cash income, which they can get away without fully reporting and paying tax on.
1
Like most of the commenters here I would like to see tipping go away and staff paid a living wage instead. But notice the absence of wait persons weighing in on this. Those I have discussed this with do not want this. They feel they are making more under the current system, and I assume they are correct.
3
Many chain restaurants break labor laws. My daughter worked 12-14 hour shifts at one of them. She was never allowed to take a break or eat a meal or even drink water during her shift. The management says people can take breaks but never allows the time for it. One day she demanded to use the bathroom because of her time of the month. She had to stay on her line for two hours before the manager would let her leave to use the bathroom. This is a national chain known for its cheesecake. All of these workers should unionize. The give their workers no human dignity. I make sure everyone knows how this restaurant treats its workers.
6
Please, let us do completely away with sub-minimum wages and tipping. Night shift workers get much more money than do breakfast servers; good-looking people get higher tips than others; people in diners make less than people in bars or higher class restaurants. Those are just a few reasons to eliminate sub-minimum wages.
From the customer's point of view - what if I am taking my family out because our electricity is out, and I can't afford to pay a decent tip? Or my fridge is on the blink, or I'm using a gift card and don't usually eat out because I can't afford it. Tipping puts great pressure on some customers.
In a tipping situation, the customer automatically is launched top of a hierarchy, a weird power structure, and is able to make a decision about how much a server is going to make this hour. It's like owning servants, almost. It's an awkward situation, especially when the food is not great, or the atmosphere unpleasant, and customers may be loathe to part with hard-earned money to make life good for someone they don't even know.
2
My first job as a curb boy at a drive-in restaurant (yes, I'm that old) paid 90 cents an hour plus tips. If I provided good service, my customer gifted me a reward above and beyond the price of their cheeseburger, fries, and soft drink.
Tips are a gift and if unless I receive notice from the restaurant that my "gift" to my server will be confiscated by the restaurant, I intend to sue any restaurant that converts my "gift" to its own purposes for fraud and the owners of that restaurant for conspiracy to commit fraud.
I make considerably more now some forty-six years later, but the foundation of whatever success I have enjoyed was built on what I learned working for tips.
That lesson would have been very different had my employer stolen my tips proudly earned every night.
5
Eating out is a luxury, not a right (and not so good for weight control either).
The debate should not be about a higher or lower minimum wage and how that will affect restaurants. Restaurants thrive in places where there is no sub-minimum for wait staff. In those places, staff is happier, food is better, and customers are more satisfied.
A simple solution is (1) local minimum wage for all workers, and (2) inclusion of a service charge on all food and alcohol purchases (15%, 18%, 20%, whatever) that by law is distributed to service staff. Thus, the distribution is easily audited, and offending employers face punishment if they violate the rule.
Plus, especially satisfied customers can leave some additional cash on the table when service is terrific (and you would discourage the creeps from using tips to solicit a feel or a phone number).
Much like western Europe.
2
Ate out last night in Portland. Bill was 68.00. My friend and I split the check on two cards...34.00 each plus 20% rounded to 41.00 each. 20% is standard. No more no less. The server is paid minimum wage of 10.25 an hour. There is such a competitive market in Portland for good servers they really are in the drivers seat and call the shots.
1
If a server is paid minimum wage of 10.25 an hour, why does the customer even need to add a tip? Fast food workers don't get one, office workers don't one (those two groups are often either at minimum or slightly above minimum--I know because I've worked at both). A scam if there ever was one.
2
I am in my mid-70's and eat out quite frequently. My base tip is generally 20%, more if warranted by service. That said, however, there is one sure way to receive no tip. Call me "Sweety".
For some reason, waitresses think it's cute or something to call their male customers sweety, as if addressing a child or pet dog.
Respect and courtesy should flow both ways in this business.
9
That’s a bad attitude and a petty one, considering the type of job these people have to do and the likely state of their finances. I don’t eat out much but always tip 20 percent, regardless of how annoying the waitress might be.
1
Wow. Punishing people for calling you"sweetie"? Imagine what they are calling you after they discover you've left nothing when they've given you good service other that the grave mistake of calling you sweet...boy were they wrong!
1
Would all those who seem to find tipping so pernicious order the same off restaurant menus if the stated prices were 15-20% higher? You may say yes with great integrity, but anyone who has ever set price points knows you lie. Or if sales taxes were additionally included in the price as VAT taxes are? Yes, it is more than a bit of a con, but one in which both restaurant owners and restaurant employees have a big stake.
3
At least it would be clear before ordering that you can't afford to eat there, and you'd go somewhere else.
2
Relax and enjoy your meal. When scanning menu prices, add 30% to cover tip and tax. If cocktails and wine are overpriced, scale down to house wine or domestic beer. Don't eat out that often if "just water" is your beverage of choice.
If the cost of dining out is still a "problem," google restaurants in your area for good food, acceptable service and $$$. One of my favorite places in Reno is the Nevada Art Museum. Chez Louie serves an excellent Angus Burger for a little over $20 (tip and tax included) that will forever stop you from considering fast food. Eat and Enjoy!
1
Some of your less affluent compatriots might blanch at paying $20 for a burger, much less tipping 30 percent. But apparently Nevada high rollers can afford to relax and dispense advice to the rest of us stressed folk.
3
Finally someone who charges more that Five Guys for a hamburger!
Look at how the editorial board slipped in: "folding the cost of service into menu prices, with mixed results."
Mixed results? Sounds like a failure.
As if NYC restaurant prices aren't high enough, the board wants to increase prices even more, resulting in restaurants that only the 1% can afford, and shuttering of all others. Then waiters can go on welfare.
3
Maybe that would put pressure down on the rents!
Underpayment of employed people should not be allowed. The assumption that tipping is a wage is a travesty. If a server provides poor service, the owner of the establishment should feel the pain as well, after all he/she hired him/her. That’s how service oriented business works.
4
These are popping up all over: After entering the restaurant, go to a counter, see the menu posted on a 'chalk board', order what you want, go to another counter, order what you wish to drink, with drink in hand and on your way back to the table you have chosen, pick up the implements you will need to use, WAIT for your food to be delivered (everything wrapped in paper), receive your bill -just before you are about to deliver all used items to the trash/areas for implements and other paper items - and for THIS, one is EXPECTED to leave GENEROUS TIPS? How was "To Insure Proper Service" fulfilled???
21
This is a shining example of why we should do away with tipping altogether. No one's salary should be arbitrary. Pay workers a decent wage they can live on and stop leaving it up to customers to decide if they're "worth it" or not. Because everyone has a bad day at work once in a while, but non-tipped employees don't get docked for it.
I will happily pay more for my meal instead of having to think about what the service that day was worth.
157
Nobody is forcing ANYBODY to wait tables. Find a DIFFERENT job.
10
Freedom means that we are also free to debate and enact policies that ensure that people are treated with respect and dignity. You may not like it, but we are free to do that. And we will not be dismissed, even if you use all caps.
3
Can you think of another job that some one without a college degree can maintain and make over 50k/year?
I don't know what your profession is, but I'm sure there is no one forcing you to do it, either. Being a hospitality professional is some people's passion. After hours of classes on food and beverage, months of training and constant education renewal, I think these people deserve more respect than you're giving them with a comment like this. Being treated unfairly in the workplace isn't warranted by the industry in general. No one signs up to be a server and skims over the tiny print at the bottom of their contract that says "harrassment/ workplace exlploitation may occur, but nobody is forcing ANYBODY to do it so you can leave when you want and just get that other job". Above all, harrassment and exploitation shouldn't be a part of any profession, period.
I'm curious to think what might happen when all these industry professionals suddenly realize no one is forcing them to be at work and they all leave to "find different jobs" and you are left with no people to give you service.
2
obviously, you're not in the arts.
The New York Times editorial staff must hate tipping. Real world: minimum wages, whatever they are + tips give a better wage than restaurants will give any day. Without tipping, your waiter no longer works for you, they work for the restaurant. Instead of the fresh fish that's to die for, you'll get the lamb that was cheap from the distributor. Why? 'Cause the boss man had a contest to get rid of it. Bon appetite!
4
You all need to reach the non-tipping point...
4
This is beyond disgraceful. These people SERVE. They should be paid (sometimes I even leave a 100% tip to make someone's day). Are you a cheapskate or what? I like the European thing of "service compris". The people ought to be assured of a living wage... And no, all those people aren't waiting for college or writer wannabes or actors waiting for the big break.... they serve because THEY SERVE.
5
Hear, hear!
2
The tip economy is a scam. A waiter in Italy makes beyond just a living wage. In fact is well and fairly compensated. And would be insulted if you tried to tip them.
17
and have health insurance.
n fact, when you think about it, our American way is more and more based onexploiting the most exploitable.
what's wrong with us? is it TOO MUCH Christianity?
2
When service workers were primarily black leaving them unprotected by minimum wage laws had a malign color aka race intent. Demography has altered the color aka race from African black to Hispanic brown. While technological improvements should theoretically catch violations the reality is very different. And differences in the cost of living across the nation inevitably matter.
2
Ah, the great tip debate.
This is what happens to us servers when the minimum wage goes up: We lose hours, which means we lose tips AND our higher pay. Which means we have to get a second job. Hard to do when you're in school full time, but doable. We also really enjoy walking away at the end of a shift with $100, $150, $200 for a few hours work. Do that 4 or 5 times a week and great. Back of the house can get raises; we cannot.
On the other hand, if us servers don't make a lot of money at night, or get a mediocre tip from someone who *hates* tipping or someone who never learned how to tip, or someone who felt they got bad service when they just needed to wait an extra 10 minutes during a rush- it makes us feel like we're doing something wrong in LIFE: hard time paying the bills? getting to enjoy a date night? All because someone left $7, not $10. It sucks having your self-worth tied to some stranger and being beholden to their expectations of you or their own way of acting in a restaurant- makes us feel like we're not doing the "life" thing right.
The only thing I know servers are really concerned about is wage theft (we can survive the insane chefs and "other workplace exploitation"), but to us the answer isn't eliminate tipping. Make laws concerning managers and other non-tipped FOH receiving tips stronger. Leave us out of it.
Here's an idea: remove the stigma of putting being a server on a resume so that when we want to leave the industry, we can.
36
END MANDATORY TIPPING NOW!
Pay servers a real wage and add a 'Service Charge' to the bill. Then, if extra special service is received, the customer can leave a real tip for the server.
15
The only reason waiting tables or tending bar can be a decently paying job is tips. You can end up making $20/hr or more. I have zero faith that employers would pay this much if they got rid of tipping. I've worked in jobs that tip and yes, sometimes there's harassment and that feels oppressive. But not as oppressive as making minimum wage.
12
There is a serious problem with sub-minimum wages. There is a problem with the minimum wage and non-living wages in general. Tipping is not part of either. Were base wages adequate, tipping would stand out clearly for what it is: a profit sharing system. It gives servers a stake in the success of "their" restaurant. It also effectively gives them a voice to which smart restaurateurs and managers attend in running their business. This is most apparent in high-end restaurants, where tips or the tip pool are no mere pittance and servers can forge lifelong careers with decent incomes and flexible schedules they cannot find in most other employment. Servers are the front-line sales force that sees how everything comes together or not, day in and day out, in detail, to an extent no owner or manager can. Turn servers into mere employees and restaurants, a rough business already, will be flying blind.
5
In Europe, tipping is not the norm. It is a peculiarly American custom. The other day I was shocked when I noticed a tipping jar in an American Airlines lounge. What next, tipping flight attendants?
23
The editorial leaves out a few facts. Faced with rising wages for low skilled workers, the national chain Red Robin has eliminated bus boys in their 570 restaurants In many new restaurants, IPads are replacing waiters. Eatsa, a San Francisco start up, is completely automated. As wages rise, there will be a tipping point - no pun intended, where most of these jobs will be eliminated.
6
If some national chains choose iPads and other automation replace human help customers can vote with their wallets and their feet and not patronize these establishments. I for one have not been inside a chain eatery in well over a decade Simply because I do not choose to patronize that business model.
4
These changes would have come about regardless. Employers improve their bottom line at the expense of labor as a matter of routine. Labor is the first thing cut when the bottom line beckons. Just because some people will work for slave wages does not that should be the law of the land.
2
I think many restaurant patrons see tipping as a pressing ethical necessity, since pay is so dismal, and are often reluctant to punish for less than satisfying service. It would be nice to relieve the customer from some of that implicit pressure, so we can reward for service well done.
7
Pay servers fair wages and eliminate tipping. When I travel abroad I'm always amazed to get better service with no tipping. If it works elsewhere it can work here.
11
Time to get rid of tipping altogether, as they have in Europe. Pass a federal law making tipping illegal, and give restaurants six months to transition.
11
I agree, better yet give them a living wage. My wife and i were in Japan this year where workers earn decent wages and tipping is not expected. What a relief it is not to worry about giving the right amount and to the right people while traveling.
8
You can be assured that servers in New York earn far, far more than servers in Japan. The issue is ours make morally specious arguments that they deserve to be paid as much as an RN or teacher annually, which they probably don’t. So we see all these weasel words and sleight of hand arguments.
1
Not so fast! After what happened to the retail industry due to the internet,policy makers should listen to small business
Wait staffs should be paid that increase amount only if they don’t make enough .
And the question becomes, how a restaurant that is not busy could afford to pay that pay increase??
The tipping system is a life saver for many restaurants.Be careful what you wish! I know waiters that make more than yours reporters
4
I am quite willing to see so called small business go out of business if they cannot treat their help fairly and still make a profit. Frankly the restaurant business a predatory throwback in New York and much of the east cost and should be reformed/
1
There is intentional conflation here between “restaurant workers deserve a living wage, so we should tip bigly” and “restaurant workers deserve a living wage, so we should pay them a high wage.” I probably think that some servers should make a living wage. Not sure if I accept that they should make two living wages. And I’m also not sure that young people cannot serve food quite well too, without any need to “support a family.” That is another obfuscation; we demonize entry level jobs with the apparent implication that young people should never get never get one. Not everything is a career. So I find this tipping/living wage narrative to be a reliably disingenuous one.
1
As a Restaurateur , I can say that raising wages for tipped workers will force businesses to do away with the tipping model altogether and waiters will be hurt tremendously. Right now my waiters make a lot more money than the kitchen staff who has a lot more skill. That happens because of tipping. The only reason bosses allowed it to happen was that waiters were in essence cheap labor. Make them as expensive as a dishwasher and there's no way we(the restaurants) won't take the opportunity to raise our prices 30% and say no tipping. Waiters are by far the worst workers in the industry. They come and go as they please and, rarely exhibit loyalty or hard work ethic. Where else can a person who didn't graduate high school make $1,000 per week take home? By raising the minimum wage for waiters you will end that path of economic viability permanently. They will all get paid $15 an hour and be scheduled for 35-38 hours per week. That's roughly $600 per week and then they have to pay taxes on that income. Talk about poverty level wages. Democrats say they're for the workers but, their policies will kill jobs and, lower income for the most vulnerable. Why do it? A raise in the minimum wage is a pay raise for the government via higher payroll taxes. More tax income means more benefits to by votes with. Just sad really. If you don't agree with my arguments just stop and think of what's happened to the industry in the last few years. The proliferation of fast casual restaurants
10
You say that raising wages and eliminating tipping will hurt waiters "tremendously". You then go on to describe waiters as "the worst workers in the industry," less skilled than the kitchen staff. In light of those views, I would think you would indeed prefer to pay waiters the mandated minimum wage, eliminate tipping, raise your prices by 30% and distribute that extra income, in pay increases, to the staff that you feel are more deserving. In essence, you would pay all your staff the amount the market demands. How would that not work for you?
Also, you deplore the purported lack of loyalty of waiters. Let's see, you pay them $2.13/hour, offer no benefits, no paid leave or paid vacation or sick days. Where exactly do you think this lack of loyalty stems from?
4
Wrong on just about all counts. The same Reagan administration that rolled back the tip pay standards ordered employers of such workers to report that they received the MW AND an amount of tips based on the firm's ADV REGARDLESS of employees reporting to have made less. So no pay raise for the government. Funny how you don't want waiters or "the government" from getting a pay raise, but you are fine with yours. When you can show me a single Republican policy that has improved the lot of the American worker over the past half-century I will reconsider voting Democratic.
3
Theodore:
What utter Rubbish! Pay a $15 minimum wage with benefits including sick pay health care and vacation for a forty hour week and people will be able to survive nicely.
You are defending a corrupt system (including tax evasion) because you profit from it. Nothing more.
2
People who are angered by this movement toward guaranteed wages ought to consider whether they enjoy seeing others suffer.
3
The practice of tipping has evolved into a way for the restaurant industry to have its own clientele subsidize their employee costs. The sensible and fair solution is to pay your staff a living wage and provide them with benefits like health insurance, sick days, etc., just like any other business should be reasonably expected to do. Fold your increased costs into your menu prices if you feel it necessary. If you make a great burger, your customers won't go away and will pay you more money for it, especially if they know they are not OBLIGATED to tip the server. Stop asking us to pay for your waiters. (And yes, I do leave a generous tip to my server. I would just like to be able to do so out of appreciation rather than obligation...)
153
Pardon me, but can you think of a business model in which the clientele Does Not "subsidize their employee costs"?
My son is a server at a large chain of Italian restaurants. He makes decent money only because of his tips. If they took that away from him, he would be making minimum wage. Kid's got an associate degree but likes the freedom of flexible work hours and puts up with all sorts of labor abuses from his employer. For instance, he might be sceduled to work a "double," meaning a 12-hour shift - with no time for lunch of even a 10-minute break (yes, that's illegal) because he has to stay on top of his tables if he wants those tips. His coworkers are all under the gun all the time and they all seem to have sharp elbows when it comes to the best times to work. It's all exacerbated by the parent company which seems to operate in the Trump model: keep all employees at each others throats all the time.
4
The 7 states that have these laws also have the highest gaps between white and black wealth, higher costs of living, low net new job growth, and larger disparities in employment by race.
We see the same internationally - those countries with the highest mandated wages, and the best protections for less skilled workers, tend to have the highest youth unemployment rates, scary levels in some cases.
In other words, laws like this hurt more than they help. Think about how different restaurants are going to respond - your average white tablecloth and fine dining establishment have staffs that are truly professional, often well paid, and are already making a decent salary on top of large tips. This won't impact them in the slightest, and they'll continue to hire highly articulate, customer focused, and foodie servers.
Now, consider a chain restaurant like Friday's. These chains employ tens of thousands of servers, many who are just trying to make ends meet. These servers are a far cry from professional and this is another gig for them. No shame in that. And for these employers, the waitstaff is a utility. When operating costs go up in states with higher minimum wage laws, these employers automate. They put iPads at tables, and remove the servers from the ordering process. Result? Fewer job opportunities for the very people that laws like this are designed to help.
But I guess as long as the people who pass these laws feel good about it, all is well. Now that's progress!
3
All that needs be said you say in the last paragraph--pay servers a real living wage and raise the menu prices. The prices we see on menus are really false advertising, underpricing the real cost by whatever you tip. If I am expected to pay part of the employees' wages, maybe I should share in the profits?
9
I have always tried to provide a fair tip, even if service is somewhat lacking, as it is usually due to the restaurant being understaffed. That being said, I fault the owners of restaurants. If I am paying $24 for a hamburger, why should I be expected to also pay for your staff's salary?
7
Tipping of any sort should be banned, period. Restaurants are not different from any other service industry. Raise the minimum wage to a level that results in a person being able to support a reasonable living standard. What are we afraid of? Do we need greed everywhere?
8
I have owned and operated a restaurant for 20 arduous years & over all that time one thing remained fixed and that was the higher relative income potential of the waitstaff. Numerous variables have ensured them remain the highest earners in the restaurant in RELATIVE terms. There are numerous factors that have allowed waitstaff to gain ever more money as profits and wages for the kitchen (BOH) remained constant & low respectively. Firstly, the customary tip percentage, has over the years, increased from 15 to 20+% due to customers self shaming and not wanting to "look" cheap. Secondly, menu prices have steadily increased (good for tips) over these recent years due to skyrocketing commercial leasing costs, as well as unstable weather & food supply events which increases food costs. Both of these aforementioned factor put a lot more money in the pockets of waitstaff while all other things remain constant to meet operation costs.
Then there is the unfairness of state minimum wage requirements. Here in Florida waitstaff minimum wage has risen almost 200% since I began my business whereas the BOH minimum wage has risen only 66%. How is this fair? It is not and I feel that any narrative that is being spoken about restaurant owners wanting to "steal" wages is one of misinformation or ignorance. This is not an industry of illegal BOH slave labor any longer & we have to start understanding the business is in a state of flux where conventional tipping must be a way of the past.
4
If your business plan depends on paying your employees less than a livable wage to succeed, it is not a good (or moral) business plan.
22
Is there a server in America who pays the proper income tax on tip income?
9
Thank you, Mr Reagan, who also felt that the real shortfall in tax collection was not pass-through businesses, phony corporations, effectively zero corporate tax rates, tax havens, tax shelters, tax attorneys, tax dodges, etc, scamming the nation of billions in tax revenue, but the working waiter scamming the government of hundreds. He had IRS regulations changed to dun waiters; corporations, like restaurants, are still getting their multi-million dollar free rides.
2
What ever would make one think that government policy is required to cover what one does or does not make in tips between a private business and an employee. Does freedom of contract have no validity in our increasingly socialistic economy ?
No tipping in Japan, but the service is great. Want to add to your order? Press the button at the table, or a brisk "sumimasen!" summons staff without being rude. (Try this anywhere else and you risk being tried for a human rights violation) Oh, and the bill is placed at your table for you to take to the register at your own pace. How do they do it?
Until the US and Europe figure this out, we should just dump waitstaff headcount and replace them with ipads or kiosks. Better yet, bring back the Automat. I'm paying for the food, not phony smiles or grim-faced attitude.
3
Perhaps we should use an European model. Tipping is not something servers expect because they ear a living wage.
5
Waiters spend less than 10 minutes to serve a meal. On a 50 dollar check they get 10 dollars.
That is the equivalent of me getting 4200 dollars for a 7 hr workday
6
It's kind of amazing that an entire industry has convinced its' customers to directly pay the employees' wages. Tipping should be eliminated. I would also like see tax included in prices so the price you see is the price you pay. It's ridiculous that restaurants get away with listing menu prices that are 30% lower than the actual cost.
6
This wage-theft racket has been going on for decades in the US, and why it has not been denounced as flat-out wrong is perfectly obvious--the greed of the members of the National Restaurant Association.
4
Been to France lately? Service charges are included in the price of a meal. All these nasty power trips are gone. None of this end-of-meal calculation about what the server has earned. Servers are not punished because the kitchen is slow, and they don't have to fawn over diners and take their abuse.
It's time to end tipping. It is demeaning and exploitative.
15
I wonder how many of those economic progressives and globalists who applaud the "transition to a service economy" actually understand what working in a service economy means.
4
As a general proposition, I feel that any employer who can't pay a living wage to the people who produce his or her product or deliver it to customers should consider another line of business. Otherwise, they are just using their employees and not giving them anything worth having in return.
As far as wait staff getting harassed by customers are concerned - particularly those groped - should be encouraged to respond in the way depicted in old movies: a dramatic, bone rattling, and purposeful slap across the face. It may cost a tip once or twice, but probably would stop the behavior from then on.
1
Here’s a tip for the wait staff who are poorly paid:
“Quit your job, join the circus. “
Why is it my moral responsibility to insure that the career path of wait staff is adequately rewarded?
They chose this job for their reasons and benefits so be it.
3
rounding off the total is usually enough in countries that don't tip.
when i first moved to japan, i caught a taxi and told the driver to keep the change which was the equivalent of about 50 cents.
he was adamant about returning the correct change and, i think, a bit insulted.
I've had locals from oz tell me that americans tipping has caused problems because servers start to expect them. also, as in japan, some see it as insulting.
5
As a general rule, I expect to pay the offered price and expect that in a modern country workers are paid their worth by their employer. Why should I as a guest or passenger (in a taxi) be expected to pay more than the agreed price? The argument of the «service factor» is irrelevant. Anywhere customers interact with a service provider, be it retail, transport or a restaurant, those who provide the best service will prevail. It is the responsibility of the employer to enable their employees to provide the rigt service level, and why not pay the bigger shots a better wage?
5
I live in France where there is no tipping and servers have a guaranteed wage. This guaranteed wage along with a national health care system that benefits everyone, means that servers while not rich have a reliable income and don't have the stress of worrying about paying for medical care. Servers often work for the same restaurant for years. Despite what you may have heard, the quality of service is not worse than in the USA. I don't know why, but Americans seems to have a real problem with allowing low prestige job holders earn a living wage.
88
All true. Although service is generally better in higher end restaurants (of which there are more as well) as the staff are better trained. Plus VAT is included in the prices so you know what you are paying when you order.
But what would Americans discuss if they didn't create their own problems (tipping, healthcare, guns, etc)?
7
Disagree, in part. In my experience, service at high-end restaurants in Europe is indeed no better or worse than in the US. Service at lower-priced restaurants is better in the US. It's so reliably worse in Europe that I think it's due to the absence of tipping and, therefore, an incentive for better performance. Is it so much worse that we should abandon the effort to end tipping? No. We just need to make an informed decision: it's a trade-off that's worth the cost.
2
The reason is that these workers have traditionally been from minorities that were regarded as inferior. At its heart the exclusion of certain jobs from minimum wage protection is about racial discrimination.
2
Why not get rid of tipping altogether? Many countries don't have the tradition of mandatory tipping, and the service is fine or better than in the US. Having come from one of those countries without a tipping tradition, mandatory tipping is simply annoying to me. Servers should be justly compensated for their jobs and shouldn't have to rely on tips for their livelihoods.
49
Whatever job you are doing, there should be a minimum wage in place. It actually should be a living wage, but that is a whole other argument.
Tipping is an OVER AND ABOVE gratuity for appreciation of service.
It does replace the costs for health care, education or any other social service that should be offered by the state, and funded by the overall taxes by everyone. Subsidizing the businesses in lieu of the worker needs to stop.
25
Get rid of tipping and incorporate a service fee into the menu prices. Reconfigure restaurant salaries so that servers and kitchen workers are more equally compensated. Explain this on the menu. Currently, at some high price restaurants, percentage based tipping means that servers earn more than all other employees except the top chefs.
12
And your objection is....that servers might make too much money for the regard in which you hold them? How public spirited of you. As for prices on the menu, I hate to tell you that the current trend among upscale restaurants here in downtown San Diego is to keep prices off the website menu, so that they can be jacked up when there's a big convention in town and taken back down afterwards. The fact is that what restaurants actually sell is the entire experience, which is inevitably a messy all-too-human affair, in which everyone from owners to runners and dishwashers has a stake. If you just want food without interacting with devious humans staging a performance of flattering and serving you, stay in your car and the fast-food drive-thru. Doing away with the sub-minimum wage for tipped employees is a good thing, remedying serious inequities, but don't hold your breath waiting for the flimflam to be rationalized out of the restaurant business. In a very real sense, flimflam is the business.
4
This article says there is no evidence that customers will tip less if they think waiters and bartenders are receiving at least minimum wage, but the link provided in the very next sentence (i.e. California and the six other states) references a Census researcher who found exactly that, i.e. she found that people tipped less when servers received at least minimum wage.
You are leaping to conclusions. The relation found by Census researcher Maggie R. Jones is far more indirect and complicated. She found that customer tipping remained unchanged, but that an increase in base wage attracted a larger pool of prospective employees, enabling employers to hire more servers. With on average more servers on the floor, the tip share of each declined. But importantly, not by so much that servers weren't the gainers from a higher base wage.
6
And how would your typical restaurant customer possibly know what the wait staff at any given establishment is getting for a wage? Know ... or care, for that matter.
Well, here's the thing: If these workers are getting at least minimum wage, it's OK if they receive smaller tips, because they'll be guaranteed better earnings and will be less likely to live in poverty. And that's what matters, right? RIGHT?
I always try to show respect for hard working wait staff whether the local diner or a fine-dining establishment. 20% is the regular tip; 25% for breakfast, especially at 6 in the morning. The real problem, as I've learned, is that one in six diners is an insulting, rude and harassing diner who never learned any respect for the working man or woman.
15
I think everyone should have a minimum tip that they give to servers, even when the bill is small. The amount is up to the person, but if your bill comes to $8, and you leave 20%, that's only $1.60 for someone to literally wait on you. So, whether a person's minimum is $3 or $4, or whatever is appropriate for the area in which they live, it should be automatic. if a person cannot afford to do that, then maybe they should eat somewhere else (i.e. a non-tipping establishment).
1
Uh...no. 10% at breakfast or lunch, 20% at dinner -- unless you get exceptional service.
Even that is too much for bad or lazy service.
2
Why conclude that moving away from tips is impossible instead of using the very large bully pulpit you have to push for just that? The tipping culture we have in the U.S., which is spreading not shrinking, is pernicious.
54
Brad is right. Whether or not legislation can pass everywhere is one thing. That does not mean what makes sense should not be advocated. In most European countries restaurant servers have to be paid a living wage. Tips there are only given if the server really does a good job. Even a small tip is appreciated. Go ahead restaurants and increase prices to reflect what customers should be paying anyhow.
And to those who say that they need a way to punish poor waiters or waitresses? Complain to the manager and they'll take care of it if they see a pattern.
1
Let's use New Jersey as an example. In NJ, the minimum wage for tipped employees is the federal minimum wage -- $2.13 an hour. The state minimum wage is $8.60 an hour.
For a waitress in NJ who works 40 hours --
If her gross pay is stepped up to $344 ($8.60 an hour) from $85.20, Trump's labor department will okay her employer taking ALL the non cash tips she gets. If she gets $1000+ on credit cards and electronic transfers, but her gross pay is $344, her employer may take ALL $1000+ to distribute to all the dining staff, to give to her, to distribute among all kitchen and dining employees, or to KEEP ALL FOR HIMSELF.
That would be unethical and unfair, but it would be LEGAL.
30
"unethical" and "unfair" - WELCOME to TRUMP WORLD!
7
Unless I'm past due for a trip to the bank, I always tip cash. Put that in your pocket, ma'am, what the feds don't know won't hurt 'em.
33
I won't go into the gory details, but IRS regs require restaurants determine the average tip percentage on their credit card payments that declare tips, assume that was the percentage tipped in cash on zero tipped payments, and include the taxes on the ghost tips when making payroll tax deposits and generating W-2s.
9
Agreed! The less money that goes to the Federal Government the better!!
1
I need to do this more!
1
Malarkey.
The difference between a server's hourly pay and the minimum wage for a non-server is $4.35. If you're a waiter and you can't make that much in tips in an hour, you need to find another line of work.
Not much interested in what happens in Europe because this isn't Europe. Tipping is baked into the American dining scene. If wages were so horrible, then we wouldn't have servers, but we do have servers. Good servers move up to better restaurants and make more money. Lousy servers get stuck where they are and get paid less. It's called capitalism, and there is nothing wrong with it.
10
Malarkey.
Not interested in what goes on in other parts of the world? Must be a Trumpkin.
Lots of things were baked into the American scene. Cigarette smoking, blatant and systemic racism in hiring, discrimination in laws about marriage. We changed.
There are lots of jobs that have horrible wages. But we do have workers. It's called survival. So far as capitalism, yeah, there is a lot wrong with it. Including the slave wages paid to many workers.
6
Your argument also opposes a minimum wage. The better workers will move up, etc...
1
Waiting tables was the hardest work I ever did. It was more than taking food orders and delivering a bill. Every part of it, both physical and mental (problem customers, harrassment, stiffing) combined to make it exhausting. It's why I tip heavily, even when nearly broke. Even with a greatly needed and we'll deserved higher basic wage, I will recognize a waiter's hard work and tip substantially.
As for those hard working people who are out of sight in the kitchen, one restaurant where I waited tables had a policy, established by the waiters, where a portion of our tips got shared with everyone, all the way down to the bus boy.
All that said, a built-in tip works best, and even the sleazyist diner doesn't lose business over better, higher internal pay. The Times is right: that's a ruse, nothing more.
27
"But, realistically speaking, tips are not going away anytime soon — so it is important that state and federal lawmakers make sure waiters and other staffers who rely on gratuities are guaranteed the same minimum wage as other workers."
-----------------
Why not? Tips serve no valid purpose. Putting cash into peoples pockets like this assures two things:
1. Tax evasion, and
2. Spending the cash frivolously.
15
I don't see the waiters spending their cash frivolously on things like gas for their car, rent, food, child care .... by in large I see the business owners paying dirt wages knowing that the public will make up the difference mostly. Great system we have ??
5
Oh, I see. What you're saying, "Equality," is that servers are either crooks or wastrels.
We must disallow tipping for the good of mankind,
Right?
5
Tips serve no valid purpose? Really? The commentator clearly does not understand that $2.13/hour is not a living wage....nor is the minimum wage in the U.S.
5
Seattle: Tom Douglas Restaurants. 20 Percent mandatory service fee.
ALL proceeds distributed to Employees. And, just so happens to be the best food in this food lovers paradise. Google it. We just got back, and I'm literally dreaming about the next visit. Seriously.
11
Why? Because your corrupt legislature is in the pocket of the restaurant industry.
17
Tipping can be seen as a reflection of appreciation, vanity, pity, genuine concern or a desire to do good. For long capitalist/owners have passed the buck on to consumers to taking care of their workers in form of tipping. It's time the service industry joins the 21st century and pays their workers accordingly. How about having a profit-sharing plan for workers, instead of the tip-crumbs?
145
Tips are profit sharing, provided the base pay is adequate, which is the actual issue -- not tipping, per se -- raised by NY state's potential revision of its labor law. That would do much to redress the exploitation of tipped workers at lower priced restaurants.
At high-end restaurants, however, tips are not crumbs. They are the reason people work those jobs, some for all their lives. At high-end restaurants, you will find servers refusing management positions, because it generally means a drop in income. At such restaurants, the battle is otherwise: keeping management's hands out of the cookie jar.
You may feel tipping as you please as "appreciation, vanity, pity, genuine concern or a desire to do good." But realize that what you are actually doing is paying for a collective, staged performance that allows you to flatter yourself in feeling those things.
3
Why not follow the European approach? Add a standard service charge to the bill, and let customers add a small (ceremonial) tip for excellent service. Under this arrangement you keep staff for years, and I for one, have favorite restaurants that I go as a repeat customer because the food is good, and I know, and appreciate the same wait staff.
69
There is a suggested standard tipping charge in NYC in many restaurants and it has become 25% of the bill which is shameless! Waiters are scolded when they get below that.
1
OR with the prices one sees on menus - make the owners pay more decent wages and do away with mandatory SERVICE FEES and the high %ages one is expected to leave as a TIP.
3
When I first grappled with the issue of tipping while traveling, I was surprised (and pleased) to learn that in most countries, servers earn a good wage and don't rely on, on expect, tips from customers. In many places, like Italy, career waiters and waitresses earn a good living and take great pride in their work -- which incidentally makes for knowledgeable staff and better service.
Having to grovel for tips for a living is undignified and unfair. Restaurants -- all businesses -- should be compelled by law to pay a living wage to all employees.
107
A waiter can handle 5 tables at a time with an hourly turnover at dinner and 30-45 minute turnover earlier in the day. Average meal price can vary between $20 to $300 a table. Most tip between 15-20%. Wages for a 3-hour rush vary from $60 to $900 with a lower wage during the off times. As much of this is cash income, earnings are under the table. How many waiters would work for a fixed $20/hr wage?
12
I don't know if it's a local phenomenon but I've noticed that tip jars are appearing in many small stores where there is no waiting on tables involved. I've seen these jars in Starbucks, in our local stationery store, in the bagel shop, in the deli and I resent the implicit request of these tip jars just as I resent being expected to tip when the food in a restaurant is less than good or the service is terrible. it would be far better for the wait staff if the restaurant owners paid them a living wage, gave them sick time so that they weren't losing money when they needed a day off (and didn't come in sick), and we could relax and enjoy our food and tip when the service was quite good. As it is, in many restaurants, patrons are made to feel that any request beyond the meal is extraordinary. The sad part is that most wait staff are, like the rest of us, being pushed beyond normal limits.
I remember a waitress in Provincetown who expected a tip. She did a good job. I paid for the meal by credit card. This was a dinner to celebrate a friend's birthday. This waitress lost half of her tip when she commented, as loudly as possible, about the lack of a tip on the credit card slip. "Wasn't the service good enough for you?" Then she saw my wallet. It was too late. She ruined my friend's dinner. If my friend hadn't been there I would have left her no tip for that. Ending tipping would end moments like this.
59
At my local Panera Bread Shop, I was shocked to see on the cc display a request for a tip with 3 or 4 options, 10%, 15%, 20%. If I didn't press one of these options I would have immediately looked like a cheapskate. It was as if a wait person stood over me and demanded that I choose how much of a tip to leave. And this was a request for a tip for what exactly? For ringing up a bill on a cash register?
27
Exactly what the article is talking about. That waitress likely makes little money, and relies on tips to pay the bills. Stressed at thinking her good service was going for naught, she spoke up (which she shouldn't have) and immediately lost half her tip. Your story exemplifies the trouble servers endure. I do hope your friend has recovered from the ruined birthday.
6
Concerning the Provincetown waitress, don't you think a good part of the fault was yours? Couldn't you simply have alerted her to the fact that you intended to tip her in cash?
5
A long time ago I worked for 2.13 an hour in a hotel restaurant.
The management also had the wait staff do laundry, sweep/mop floors,
vacuum the dining room, clean pots/dishes, wash windows, etc. So quote 'side work'.
Being paid 2 bucks an hour to do these other tasks seemed demanding and improper. Very often it is not just waiting on tables alone. Sometimes you make salads, desserts and drinks too. You are expected to do just about anything you are asked to do. Totally wrong for the amount compensated for your hard work. I was asked to clean walk-in refrigerators and set up and break down large tables, stacks of chairs and wooden dance floors for receptions. For TWO DOLLARS an hour!
97
I bet you complained the whole time....
Tipping - or in many cases what amounts to punishing the server - fails in it intended purpose of rewarding exemplary effort. A sympathetic customer is bound by their personal code to give a minimal tip regardless of how disappointing the experience while the cheapskate looks for every excuse to stiff the staff. Tipping defines the tipper for more than the service.
At the end of the shift the workers must wonder about the message delivered. Were their efforts so much better just before Christmas yet so pathetic on April 15th when they hustled just as hard? Why are they being punished for the sorry results of the new line cook? I didn't make you wait 30 minutes to be seated, it was the crowd. Why must I suffer your grousing and 10% tip?
Lets find a way not to punish the server for the world at large.
108
When you go to a restaurant & the service is very good, but, the food atrocious, do you not tip to ‘punish’ the establishment? It doesn’t you know. It only punishes the server. If the food is bad, ask to see a manager, when you do, make sure you speak loudly enough so everyone in the area hears, when you start “The service here is superb, better than a lot of places. My beef is with your food”. Then describe the problem. Lowing a tip or not tipping because the food is bad doesn’t tell the owner/manager anything.
Have you notice those little machines popping up on many tables? Where you can order your drinks & appetizers, reorder drinks, & pay your bill with a card? It won’t be long until the games on these machines will be gone & you will do all your ordering & paying right there. No tipping needed, because no wait staff is there, just kitchen workers shuffling out plates. If they can figure out how to deliver food & drink to the tables without humans, they will. It’s why the wait staff is now almost universally known as ‘servers’.
Anyone who gets tips does not automatically ‘waste’ the money. It’s used as payments for basic living expenses. Or in the case of my husband (works at an apartment complex) his tips are almost all holiday related. We save it in an envelope till after the holidays, then count it up, & in years we don’t need it for basic things, get something(s) we need. This year it was 2 new desktops, not the best, but good.
3
The bottom line is: There is no excuse for not paying workers a living wage, no matter what job they do. All the “reasons” from businesses are wearing thin. It’s become an expectation that people, grateful to have any job, will settle for whatever their employees deign to give them. That is just a new twist on the old slave-master relationship; it’s not sound economic practice but another sign of the growing divide between the classes.
Also, it’s a harsh fact of life that jobs that were once seen as supplemental — like kids putting themselves through school or a housewife looking for some spending money — are now the main sources of income for too many households. It’s time to treat them as such.
My ex put himself through school by waiting tables at a chain restaurant. He was good at what he did and was left many generous tips as a result, which he then had to pool among his coworkers at the end of the night. Then there were those patrons who wouid only leave a penny for each person at the table, shorting him many hard-earned dollars as a result.
Economic security begins with a fair and living wage, negotiated between the employer and worker. It’s time we brought some dignity and parity to the restaurant/hospitality industry. Better-paid workers make for a better workforce, which will ultimately boost productivity and the profits of the employer (which is all that matters anyway, right?).
266
Workers can't "negotiate", it is a take it or leave it world these days.
5
What is a living wage? Is it the wage that supports one adult? One adult and one child? A family of four?
Check out the living wage calculator, by locality, maintained by MIT. The living wage for one working adult with one child, in my locality, is $24.98 per hour, while the living wage for a single earner in a family with two adults and two children is actually less: $24.74
The living wage for a single adult is only $11.34; for a single adult with three children, it's $36.32
"Living wage" makes for good slogans, but it can't be a basis for policy unless we acknowledge that what makes a wage livable or not is how many adults and children that wage is supposed to support.
3
I agree with you MDB,especially for severs in restaurants and bars,but not in any fast food restaurants such as McDonald's.The idea of working at McDonald's and expecting to be paid a"living wage"is asking a little much these days.Gone are the days of McDonald's being an after school job or for a few extra dollars here and there.As far as the other different dining establishments,a "living wage"plus tips (depending on the type of service the customer receives)is defintely the way to go.
With a daughter in the serving business, I hear tipping, or rather non-tipping stories, daily.
Tipping is mostly a function of the demographic type being served. For example, quick casual restaurants have lots of young and that demographic is a terrible tipper. There are other well known poor tipping demographics.
Alternatively, those servers working in upscale restaurants with more affluent patrons will do quite well on tips alone.
Hard problem to solve.
10
Through our long married life (46 years) we have tried to find the happy medium. There have been years when to be able to afford a dinner out for our anniversary we have gone to less nice places, gotten ground sirloin instead of filet, & either tipped less or not at all. If we had to factor in 20% tip, we’d have been eating at home & having leftovers. Now, luckily, we can afford the 20% tip 99% of the time. My husband gets tips at his job. Not as many or as good, because of the changing demographics of the complex. Seems (it is very obvious when most tips come around the holidays) that people from India don’t tip. Everyone who does tip gets a Season’s Greetings/Thank you card. So we have a list by the end of the holiday. We don’t keep a list of who gives what as some in his position do. My husband treats everyone the same,no matter how much they tip. No matter how many times in a year they wake you up to come let them in (locked out, forgot key) at 2 or 3 in the morning. Now that is so bad that management has instituted a $75 fee to be let in after office hours. Problem with that is that no office staff is awakened in the middle of the night & they keep the fee.They are attempting to train tenants to not lock themselves out using the fee. Doens’t Seem to work with the people who get locked out several times a week, or even night. Who can’t put a house key on the ring with the car key. Or realize they have no key & call to say, meet me at my apt to let me in at 3am (at 6pm).
2
So the restaurant industry contends that raised wages would hurt their businesses.
Sounds like the problem is with an inferior product.
Restaurants that serve good food at good prices with friendly service will survive.
Those that don't will fail.
I guess restaurants will have to compete just like every other industry.
21
What I really don’t like is places who deliver & say right up front that the ‘service charge’ is not a tip, & to tip the driver accordingly. When I was staring at the screen recently I realized we’d been tipping on the total: product, tax, & fee. Now we just tip on the cost of the product. Takes a bit more figuring. It’s what we do when we go into a place & sit, & when we call in order & pick it up ourselves we don’t have to tip at all.
I hate having to tip, not because I am stingy but because there is a sleight of hand at play. The price listed on the menu is not the actual price I will end up paying. Worse, the restaurant owner gets away with paying servers less. It is like offloading some of the costs of running a business to the customer.
Worst of all, these days a 20% tip has become virtually mandatory - regardless of whether the service was good or bad. Not tipping at that level is treated as a combination social faux pas with a dollop of being a heartless labor exploiter added for good measure.
I am not swayed by all the arguments against a higher minimum wage for servers. If the businesses cannot afford to operate at that wage level, they do deserve to stop operating. Just like other businesses do if they have an unsustainable business model.
210
I agree with your comments. If employers can only afford to pay $2.13 an hour to servers then there is something wrong with the business model. I pay the 20% or more tip because I realize that the servers, whether they are great or mediocre, deserves more money. In a sense, I am subsidizing the restaurant owner. I am paying for their staffing and keeping them in business.
5
In an eat in restaurant the price you pay is the one on the menu. It’s like buying a toaster. The toaster is $20. At checkout tax is added. No fault of the store. They just have to collect the tax. It doesn’t change the price of the toaster. Or steak. I remember a time that if you needed help getting your purchases out to the car, you tipped the kid who carried it out for you. Haven’t seen that in years & often stores have forbidden employees to take tips. I know, cause now that we need help (old age is a bother), no one will take the offered tip.
1
There is actually no obligation, legal or otherwise to tip.
I tip what service is worth. I will tip well for good service -- 15-20% -- but not for bad service or cold food or other miseries.
If you feel obligated to tip 20% so you don't feel shame in front of friends or servers....you've been scammed.
2
Tipping has gotten out of control in this country. Waiters, waitresses and bar tenders work hard for there tips and perform a real service. The person at the counter of a Dunken Donuts or other fast food type places basically put your order in a bag or fill a cup of coffer. These people should be paid a decent wage and the patrons should not feel ablighed to tip.
Tipping should be based on good or extra services performed, not for doing your basic job function. Delivery people should not be tipped if you've paid a delivery charge.
This whole question comes down to a fair wage for jobs performed. The employer should be the one paying the fair wage and the patron tips for extra or exceptional serves performed only.
48
Pay all restaurant workers a $15 minimum wage.
Period.
27
Businesses that cannot afford to pay its workers a living wage should not be in businesses. Taxpayer subsidies, in the form of food stamps, Medicaid and EITC, for these businesses are hurting our society by supporting inefficiency both on the owner side, and the worker side.
236
Workers who work a job or two who don't make a living wage and have to rely on government assistance are not true recipients of the benefits.It is the employers who are the beneficiaries of government assistance. The same is true of the undocumented immigrants . We enjoy the fruits of their labor, cheap food, and than curse them and call them criminals for coming here, even now when we're at full employment.. every white man who wants to work can find plenty.
End tipping culture — that’s the only real solution. It’s an unjust system. Follow the lead of Europeans and Asians, where tipping is unheard of, and wait staff are paid an ordinary wage.
63
here's a revolutionary idea....why not just pay people enough they don't have to rely on tips or have them included in the price?
Europe, nz, oz and japan don't have tipping and i'm sure there are more countries as well.
30
Right on....and by the way they have fair healthcare policies.
1
People who eat or drink out should pay the full freight for living wages for employees of these establishments - even if this is essentially akin to a regressive tax.
3
Pay the 15.00 min wage, in All restaurants, along with health care for all Americans.
Make America a place where we can say "We are better than that". America needs a starting point and this is the right place, equality. Obama made a mistake helping the Dreamers,
and not helping the poor loosing their homes, many of those people that worked in the food industry, This is one reason we have the current President, many Democrats are not going to vote for a "neoliberal" when progressives have the answer to being "better than that". Build the Wall --only build it around Wall Street.
8
If you don't tip? I hope you get the service you deserved. But I do have a question for us tippers: do you tip based on the price pretax or after the tax is added to the meal/tab? I was forever tipping based on the total, but I have since changed my habits to only tip for what I bought pretax. Thoughts?
11
I’m another pretax tipper, though I tend to tip higher percentages at cheaper restaurants, and slavishly do 15% at more expensive ones. I see no reason to tip on government money. The server doesn’t serve the taxes. They’re imposed by the government.
I would be happy if we could get rid of tipping everywhere, and just have the cost of service folded in, just like we pay the cost of a doctor’s support staff when paying the doctor’s fee, or pay the garage staff’s costs when paying car repair fees. If a restaurant can’t be competitive doing that, then it will fail, but a restaurant that close to the brink is likely failing for a different reason soon anyway.
8
You would be what we like to call in the industry "one of those people."
3
I've been told that tips should be based on 20% for food, 10% on drinks, and not to include taxes. Good luck doing the math!
2
And what about the back of the house that isn't tipped? They work just as hard cooking the food and cleaning dishes and do not get tips.
A cook gets paid the same wage whether they are preparing soup, saled or foie gras. The server however, generally gets a larger gratuity when paying for larger ticket item.
5
The whole notion of tipping, especially when it's 'built-in' as part of your wage, is outdated and needs to be scrapped. Business (esp restaurant) owners can get off by not paying their workers a fair salary. Workers and patrons are then pitted against one another (i.e., if you don't tip well, you'll be labelled a 'bad tipper' and subsequent visits to that restaurant will get you bad service.
The idea that certain people need 'motivation' to work well, by having to work for tips, is ridiculous. Most of us don't work for tips, and we do our jobs just fine, because we understand that if we do not, we'll eventually be fired. Why should it be any different at restaurants?
And as for the argument that restaurants will then 'have to' raise prices to make up the difference, so be it. Patrons can then decide whether they want to eat at a particular restaurant or not, based on the actual prices (plus tax) shown in the menu. And just think, no more waitstaff complaining about lack of sufficient tips from non-American tourists.
6
I live in Washington State where we have a $12 minimum wage now. We saw a steep increase in our minimum wage over the last few years. Menu prices at restaurants are noticeably higher here than in comparable municipalities in other states without our high minimum wage. Because the menu prices are higher, tips are customarily larger. So the customer gets a double whammy. The result for our household is a choice to eat out about half as often as we would. We also eat takeout instead specifically to avoid the expectation of an 18% tip.
This all goes to a broader point: we need wages to go up higher across the board. If I had just a 10% higher real disposable income, the high menu prices at restaurants would not be an issue. Get out and vote for politicians who will raise taxes on the rich instead of cut them.
223
Jon...Why do you feel compelled to tip now that the minimum has been raised to (a still too low) $12 hour? Are waitstaff required to be paid $12 or are they still paid far below minimum wage and then get a mostly tax free subsidy from diners?
Totally agree with your broader point. Wages need to go up for the working class. Taxes need to go way up for the investor class and even up some for the rest of us.
2
if workers are being paid a fair wage then you don't need to tip. That's the point. it doesn't raise the cost of your dining out.
I live in Washington and I don't believe you. Can you provide DATA that shows our meals are more expensive than in "comparable municipalities in other states"? And - "municipalities"? The minimum wages is a state thing, not a municipal thing. Your assertion is just noise.
1
My sister worked for years at a diner on Queens Blvd. that kept two sets of books with employees paid part time off of one account and in cash off the other. She got her health care from Medicaid or whatever New York calls it because of the falsified payroll. Out of her tips she had to pay the busboy or he wouldn't clean her tables promptly. The dishwasher got a cut too.
Almost all the staff were here illegally and were paid in cash, no taxes. I don't know how they were able to get away with it for so many years.
I tried to get her to do something but no one would join with her since they were illegals. When it got down to my sister being the last legal they finally ran her off by denying her tables or putting her in the slow section where the tables didn't turn over fast enough. They also gave her tables with people known to be poor tippers.
She finally went on disability. After 30 years of waiting tables her back, feet and legs were shot. She gets a very minimal amount because of the way she was paid.
These people have sold the restaurant because someone wanted the land. The building is being torn down. He owns another place a few blocks away and I'm sure the abuse will not stop. He'll get away with by hiring only those desperate enough to work in such terrible conditions.
Never mind customer abuse, the employer abuse is even worse.
336
Many years ago I worked as a hostess at Mustang, a very popular restaurant on the UES, corner of 86 and Second Avenue, now closed. Almost everyone was paid in cash, including the managers, and more than half of the employees were illegal. The place had been active for many years and I am sure someone at the NYPD was taking bribes to close their eyes. I'd say most of the NYC restaurants employ this tactic.
2
Have you or anyone else bothered to call INS, ICE, or even the IRS? Didn't think so. Always better to "not get involved."
Make the call. Tell them you wish to remain anonymous if you must.
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
Edmund Burke---a David Brooks fave.
5
The "best" part is that the stingy employer who's "hurting" saves enough in stiffed wages to buy a Republican to deflect the blame to the illegals and keep themselves in business, when the real problem is the Stingy Employer Problem.
1
Tips are gifts for exemplary service and should be tax free like they were before Reagan insisted they be taxed. I know restaurant workers in California, one of the few states that require normal minimum wage, who take home a whopping $0 because the Feds require their employers to withhold tips from their paycheck. Adding insult to injury, the IRS imposes tax on tips for every meal, even if a miser refuses a tip for large dinners. I've traveled all over the country, and the cost for meals doesn't vary much. Guess who's getting rich off their employees in states that can pay $2.50 minimum wage?
2
Most tips are in cash -- never reported and never taxed.
That's how waitstaff manage to live -- most of them pretty well.
The government does assume some taxes, but it is very low -- 8% of receipts -- so if the average tip is even 15%, the waitstaffer is making out.
1
Why bother describing the percentage of restaurants that fail in the first years after a major investment in time and money by the owner. If the owner could net 15% on his investment it would be the exception.
A waitperson isn't a skilled chef who studied and apprenticed for years, usually remaining in the heat of a kitchen never to be a star, An attractive personable waitperson can net an executive's salary, with some of it not reported to be taxed.
If the restaurant fails, along with the hopes and dreams of the entrepreneur, the waitperson just finds another job, which could very reasonably be a franchise that the owner is paid for.
Sure, the person who served low price meals at the N.Y. coffee shops of old needed those tips, which used to be coins, but that not the N.Y. City of this era.
8
It is important to not disparage any position, one can easily be critical with actually no understanding or knowledge of how a waitperson performs his/her job. It is true that chef's spend countless hours perfecting there craft but they chose to pursue that under those conditions. It would better serve you if you understood the countless hours of education that a waitperson goes through, which is beyond just a smile and pretending to pay attention to rude and belligerent individuals. This skilled individual has to understand wine/Liquor, cuisine, style of service, and being able to educate and inform the guests so they can make there decisoins.
Every individual, from the owners to the person in the dish pit play an important part in the success of a business, and until we stop trying to disparage these individuals and actually allow them to earn a livable wage, we will be failing miserably. Its time to protect these employees and make sure they recieve a livable wage, because in most cases the employer will abuse them.
Restaurants fail for a multitude of reasons, and not because they were trying to protect there employee with a livable wage. The majority of tips in most restaurants are all declared 100 % and put into a paycheck. Just know when you leave a tip about 50% comes back to the waitperson and thats pre-tax.
2
I always tip 20% or more. After waiting tables in college I know how grueling and thankless the job is.
On the other hand, I'd be happy if we got rid of the tip credit laws and everyone was paid a proper wage and tipping was just that, a tip for extra service.
75
Sammy--Right. Pay a decent wage and dump the tipping. Add the increase to the cost of the meals. People will still come out to good restaurants. Tipping is a shameful thing, when customers can stiff their server. If your server is bad, tell the manager.
3
I wonder if you would tip a waitress in Germany 20% if you knew she was making $20 per hour (i.e. a living wage)?
How often do you tip the person that sells you a shirt or a car?
3
Equality--There are few, if any, servers in this country, who make 20 bucks an hour. We're talking about the ones who don't--REALLY don't.
4
I would much prefer that tipping not be required/expected, but that it be completely optional. I do not like tipping -- I find it awkward to be expected to pay extra after paying the bill, and to presumably pay based on my experience of someone simply carrying items from one place to another. I actually do not need those items carried --- in fact my preference is to dine in restaurants where there is no waitstaff and you simply order your food at a counter and carry it to a table yourself.
If the restaurant wants waitstaff (and larger establishments certainly need them) then I think they could do as California has done and incorporate the cost of all employees into the prices of their menu items.
17
"simply carrying items from one place to another." . . . Work for a week--nay, a single busy evening--as a server and get back to me. I understand that telling yourself it's a simple job frees you from guilt when you undertip (which, by the way, is classless and your loved ones are probably embarrassed by it)--but as a server I assure you it is not an easy job. In Ohio we make 4.15 an hour, which is almost $2 higher than the serving wage in many states! We need the tips to survive. I agree all servers should get minimum wage, and that minimum wage (and, in turn, wages for the rest of the working class) should be higher in general. It's not fair to have to subsidize corporate greed by paying a percentage above menu price. In the meantime, though, if "being expected to tip" an adequate amount [read: 20%] makes you uncomfortable, stay home or go to Chipotle. It's that simple.
6
The main impact in those states has been on worker's hours, not the businesses themselves. It simply means wait staff are only scheduled for hours that business occurs. This means fewer staff working at slow times, and the normal amount of wait staff working during peak periods. I suggest a poll for all servers to see what they think is the best option. I have many friends that would prefer a low minimum wage in order to have the extra hours to earn tips. In mid tier restaurants, having only two tables an hour would yield a tip (depending on size of party) of 10-20 dollars. More tables would yield more tips. Plus, not all tips have to be reported past the minimum wage allowing for a significant tax advantage (legal or not). My friends in CA may earn more per hour, but they get less hours. They have to rely on more tips during those hours to make ends meet. Eliminating tips may or may not work. As far as I can tell, these data are very mixed. I know few servers who want to see tips go away, particularly those at higher priced restaurants. I think the minimum wage has continued to price out the very workers in CA that need the wages the most. Ultimately, these employees will be replaced by machines as is happening in so many restaurants. Only the high end places will keep good staff around. The rest will revolve around iPad ordering. See what would happen with a $15 minimum wage. It is already happening in so many places.
4
Steve, last year my family went out to a chain restaurant -- barbecue style -- and we were seated by a hostess, but then ordered our entire meal on an iPad like tablet. A server delivered our meal, but otherwise it was all done on the tablet -- ordering the food, then the bill arrived (with the tip calculated!). You pay by credit card, swiped directly on the tablet device.
How long until you are seated by a robot or a tablet directs you to a table -- and the food is served on an automated heated cart, that robotically goes to the correct table?
You could have a restaurant with almost NO humans to run it (outside of the kitchen perhaps, and 1-2 managers to deal with problems).
There goes your waiter job!
My stepdaughter was a waitress at a high end eatery for 17 years. She earned $3.75 an hour (half the minimum) but got fantastic tips. She worked roughly 20 hours per week, mostly on Fridays and Saturday evenings and made over $30,000 a year in tips.
Since her "income on paper" was very low, she also got food stamps and grants for college, and other freebies. She always carried around a huge wad of cash!
That's a good job for working only 20 hours a week, and it let her attend college part time during the days.
The left, in their fanaticism, will kill this "golden goose" for many workers.
1
America needs to move to the European model of paying waitstaff a living wage that is not dependent on tips. I always tip, but not everyone does. Sometimes I don't feel like tipping because the service I have received is just not good, but I still tip because as a former food service worker I know it's a hard job with crap pay and these people depend on tips to live. Sometimes the service is good and the food/drinks are not, and I feel kind of ripped off paying a tip on top of the cost of a meal I did not enjoy. Ultimately, it comes down to the restaurant. I won't patronize restaurants where I find the food mediocre or poor quality, regardless of how nice or attentive the staff is. Especially in this economy, where our discretionary income is diminishing by the day.
Also, food in NYC is really expensive compared to many other places I have visited, including Europe. But I wonder how much of that overhead cost goes to rent, rather than food and employees. NYC is a high rent nightmare, where businesses have to raise prices just to keep the doors open, and it shows in the quality and consistency of the food at a number of restaurants.
18
Raise the prices and end tipping. Already, someone has commented that would lower his salary. There are two groups of waitstaff; those who work in run of the mill restaurants and those that work in high-end restaurants. There are those who get tipped $40 to carry a few plates to the table and those who get paid $5 to do the same job. High-end waitstaff say they are working harder to supply good service but I have waited in expensive restaurants with an empty water glass, had the waitstaff leaning on the back of my chair, leaving dirty dishes on the table, not serving my food hot, and then not returning for ten minutes to hear my complaint. On the other hand, I've received attentive service from those earning less than minimum wage.
We need a two-tiered system. The high-enders should work for tips and the others, including the back of the restaurant, should earn a proper wage. In many states, the tips are divided among all the waitstaff or even among the kitchen staff too. Are they even receiving what is their due? At Crackerbarrel, the waitstaff line up at the checkout line and receive the tips due them from the cashier. Are other restaurants as careful? Pay those working for less than minimum wage properly and raise the prices. Not only would it be fairer, it would be more honest.
6
I like tipping. I've been tipping since I first started dining out 40 years ago. But I did not realize the waiters and waitresses weren't sharing it with the cooks and kitchen crew, I assumed it went into a big pot. I also didn't realize their base wage was as low as you described. So this sounds like a better and fairer idea to me. If people still want to tip, maybe the restaurant can offer a drop box near the door and the owner can split that money with everyone.
6
Tips cannot legally be split with back of house.
1
I recently returned from Rome and consistently had excellent service in every restaurant. The servers were universally friendly and attentive. If you were feeling generous you could add a euro or two to the bill but it was by no means mandatory. Even with higher wage obligations the bills were approximately half of what they are in New York City. There were no added taxes to the bill and yet all Italian businesses pay high taxes. This was February, tourism was at low ebb and the restaurants were filled with locals. Clearly there are better systems.
133
The VAT, value added tax, is already included included in prices in Italy and most other countries . In the US you have a strange system where you can say the price is one thing, and charge a higher amount. When US friends complain about how expensive Switzerlandis, I point out that a 20 franc price is what you pay. Not $20 plus tax and plus tip.
Businesses should pay all their employees a living wage. And if a customer wants to add a tip, it should be shared amongst all employees.
42
“It would be best for most restaurant employees if the industry moved away from a tipping model.”
No, it wouldn’t be. I’ve been employed as a server and bartender for well over a decade and can emphatically state that, should restaurants eliminate tipping, the inevitable dramatic decrease in pay would see me finding employ elsewhere.
11
Tips are most-likely counted as part of your wage, for legal purposes. (Depending on which state you're in.) That means that you're not really benefiting from tipping, only taking on the risk that the number of customers for the day will be adequate. That's a risk that should be borne by the business, who has control of the product, pricing and promotion -- and not by the workers.
4
Just curious, but are you declaring your entire income to the tax people?
3
That’s because you don’t pay taxes like you should. Taxed at a regular rate, you wouldn’t say the same.
4
Adopt the European model. Bake the tip into the price of the meal. I have always had good service across Europe by wait staff that was pleasant, cordial and helpful. They get paid by the house. If I want to reward exceptional service, I do and it is always appreciated.
It has an added benefit. It does away with the cash economy and tax avoidance and makes the owners honest; they won't have a cudgel to hold over staff. And for the staff that doesn't get tipped...busboys, barbacks, dishwashers, cooks...it levels the playing field. What's not to like about a level playing field?
386
In every establishment in which I worked in 25 years in the hospitality business, buspersons received a flat percentage of the servers tips at the end of the night and bartenders either received a percentage of the server's tips or of the server's beverage sales. In the same vein- barbacks received a percentage of the bartender's tips. Again- in my experience- servers were paid $2.13 (when I left the industry) bartenders a higher wage ($5+/hr), and bussers minimum wage plus their percentage of tips. Back of the house made a significantly higher wage.
3
That’s because tipping is a remnant of slavery!
4
One thing to keep in mind is the reality of wage disparity. Some people get paid more than others for days work. That is the way that it should be.
It does not change the fact that any work should be compensated sufficiently to enable a decent living.
1
This isn't a problem in most of Europe where for many years waiting tables is considered a profession and wait staff are paid a very good wage. When in France we will still tip someone extra for special favors or help, but we know it's even seen as a bit unusual. The US should follow suit. It's way past time.
187
John,
How sure are you about your claim that waiters are paid "a very good wage?". Some of my friends work in restaurants and cafes in Germany, and barely earn enough to survive, even when they work full-time (EUR6-8/hr.), which means that they have to rely on government aid to even make rent. I can't imagine what it's like in countries with weaker economies/fewer social nets. I'm not saying we shouldn't adopt stricter regulations in the U.S., but comparing the situation to Europe doesn't to the situation justice.
2
It's a better experience to get rid of tipping completely. Just tell me how much something costs and I will buy it or not.
If I buy a loaf of bread from a bakery I am not tipping despite the jar on the counter. I am not tipping house staff at hotels for making up my room. If they want to raise the price of the room then so be it.
102
Not tipping housekeeping at a hotel? $1 per guest per night would be a minimum. Those people work very hard, clean up messes made by other people, and are at the bottom of the wage ladder in a hotel. Just leave the money on the pillow or on the bathroom counter. When you leave some valuable behind by accident, you might find it returned to you! You never know who might help you someday!
4
Guy, have you ever noticed that the housekeeper is almost always female, and often a minority? I could NOT do that job, now. They work extremely hard often for minimum wage. I always leave a crisp five dollar bill, with a post-it note attached: for housekeeping, thank you. This is to ensure they know it IS for them, and management doesn't accuse them of stealing.
For any extra service, or extra " treats ", I tip more. If you can afford to travel, you can afford to leave a few dollars for the hardest working people in hospitality. AND, especially for Business Travelers : TIP the housekeeper. Don't be THAT guy. Seriously.
13
I do tip the people who make up my hotel room, because as far as I know they are underpaid. Of course I would not tip if I found my room or my bathroom dirty. The tipping is partly to show appreciation for good service, and partly to compensate for what I've been told is very underpaid, exploitative work.
Why on earth would I not tip?
9