The Kingdom is fighting corruption and whom ever is involved in corruption case must get punished but according to the rules not by killing or abusing, that is what all people must know.
1
The transfer of power in a Muslim empire, historically, was usually accompanied by the thorough slaughter of every related male eligible to be sultan. So this Ritz business is an improvement.
4
So, Thomas Friedman, we all await your response to this story! Take your time, no rush.
6
When Louis Nathaniel de Rothschild's obituary appeared in this newspaper in 1955, it noted that he had paid $21 million to secure his freedom from Nazi captivity in 1938, the largest ransom ever paid to kidnappers to that time. I guess the Saudi shakedown of the country's princes beats that record, even adjusted for 80 years of inflation.
8
If it looks like a fish, smells like a fish, and swims like a fish, the odds are, indeed, that it is a fish, plausible deniability notwithstanding,
Putin, like most popular dictators, will push and push until someone says NO! Following Poland's lead, he is now even claiming Jews and some ethnic groups can't be Russians. As Eastern Europe gallops toward national self-definitions of ethnic majoritarian homogeneity, Western Europe finds its liberal values under major challenge not just from abroad but even domestically. For all our many problems and hypocrisies,
America still stands out as a beacon, a country whose very definition is prescribed by ideals largely embodied in the Declaration of Independence and the amended Constitution. We measure our failures, success, and even our legitimacy as a nation by how far we are from achieving those ideals. What other country can say that?
As we rightly criticize many of Trump's actions, let us be careful not to give him the power to define our country. We are much, much more than his mean-spirited and limited vision. Perhaps the very absence of Trump's America as a temporary force for good on the international stage will prod other countries, such as Great Britain, to flex their own muscles, when it comes to maintaining liberal values. For too long other countries, especially Western Europe, could pretend all was well, as it built its admirable social safety net shielded by America's international leadership and military protection.
4
In the last time the kingdom has given the people many of their rights unlike the former
We all heard about giving women their rights and allowing them to drive
We also saw how they fight corruption and terrorism at the same time
Let us not forget development and economic development
1
Disgusting people, starting with this "progressive " prince on down. They school terrorists while abandoning their own people. Why do we support them? We should be backing Iran and their young people, not these Wahabis. SA, Pakistan are our enemies, not our friends.
11
This is not true!! we all know that the people in Ritz_Carlton are arrested because they are involved in corruption case, thus, the government investigate them and if they are innocent they will go free, but if not they have to return the money back to the government. No abusing is involved or killing at all!
2
that is just LIES, it's a'' rumors that spread just trying to damage the reputation of saudi arabia. we all know the true story wich is the government and the king salman fighting corruption and everyone who is part of it, and nobody died or hurt it's all integration and facing them with the facts and their deeds which lead them to be cached.
3
First, Fighting the corruption its good for our country and our future, our government collect all the data for the Detainees Then Investigate with them. and Recover what they took. And keep them in luxury place to keep them prestige.And there's no Torture or murder like you wrote!!! where is the source? Prove your words If you are honest because we didn't see anything like this ever! and them loyalty still strong and this is truth.
also all the amounts was re back from the Detainees Known to all.
the important thing is we all trust our king and crown prince and we know this thing is good for our COUNTRY and our FUTURE.
2
There is a bright spot at the end of the story — the Prince’s foot is on the neck of Osama bin Laden’s relatives. Bwahahaha!
3
your information it's not correct! let me tell you what exactly happen in Saudi Arabia.. there's some people Exploit Their positions or their trade At the expense of the country! and MBS just Investigate with them and re back what they took from money of country and let him FREE..
and about the punishment and the kill ???? sorry but there's no thing correct with respect of your paper.
no one killed and no one injured !
And we thanks god because we have person get back the country money and we all support him to do more
3
Lie down with rodents and you will get lice, maybe even the plague. The rodent in the white house is a mercantilist, though he knows not what that is.
6
The story is that the corrupted people were arrested for their mistakes like any respectable country.
No one died...
No one tortured...
No twisted neck...
No one told you that he saw the body...
I will never believe your story since you don't have the approves.
Note*
all Saudies are sure 100% about the corruption of those princes and others with them ,so there is no possibility to faking any other story.
3
What Prince Mohammed bin Salman has done in recent days is what the Saudi people are looking for
Everyone loves to fight corruption and rejects it. So your article is not related to the truth
The Saudi people are satisfied with this government and support it!
8
What is mentioned in the article is incorrect. the kingdom also fights corruption and thieves.We in Saudi Arabia we trust the King and the Crown Prince.In the Kingdom, everyone is happy with the recent decisions.The recent decisions in the Kingdom are fighting terrorism and corruption.We must stand with the government and its decisions in fighting corruption.Saudi Arabia fights extremist ideas and seeks to spread peace in the world.Furthermore all Saudis support and stand with the government and its decisions.the crown prince is very beloved in the kingdom because he fights corruption.this government will make Saudi Arabia a better country.The Crown Prince is developing the kingdom economically and fighting terrorism and corruption.we will have bright futuer with this goverment
As a Saudi people, we must stand with this government that fights corruption and terrorism
7
the news paper clearly trying sabotage the work that being done in fighting corruption and every single one who is being part of it, obviously it's all lies just to create a bad image on the saudi government, which we all can see the difference they make by fighting the terrorism and corruption.
7
People in Saudi Arabia really believe the governmental moves against corruption under supervision of The King himself ,as well as he ordered in April 2015
the anti-corruption authorization to start gathering all the information and details to know whether the princes are involved in corruption or not, although the people in Saudi Arabia are quite sure of their deep involvement in dirty money yet the King want to apply the high level of justice and the most transparent tail ever happened in Saudi Arabia.
The operation was fire enough that Prince Motab in Abdullah mate Mohammad bin Salman in the Horses Racing of King Abdulaziz prize, not only Motab but all the princes are supporting Mohammad bin Salman before and after the war against corruption .
Regarding the torture and killing people I really enjoyed that joke.
I am living in Saudi and I have been watching this operation since it began there is no torture and no one died.
Finally,
believe me you will not be famous or good essayists or journalist by writing dreams and trying to convince readers to believe you cause people now days will never believe such a story without any evidence.
3
Your head or your wallet?
I'm waiting for the push back. I wonder if the "other" side, those out of power will look to Tehran for support?
3
am trying to comprehend what I've read, who wrote this article should work with marvel on writing for them a fiction movies. there is nothing true in this article or even related to truth. the government of saudi arabia is going after corruption and every person part of it no matter who he is or where he works.
2
In the beginning I would like to say that most of what you have written is absolutely wrong. The government was keeping an eye on all the people who have been arrested since 2015, so that did not happen in one day, and all the detained were popular of scamming and not working straight.
after investigations with all of them, if the result shows that someone is innocent they will release him, but if not he have to pay the government money back.
Talking about abusing and killing the detained is absolutely not right at all!.
If you have a real witness please mention his name or no one will believe this wrong information. The government does not torture detainees ever.
I hope you make sure that you are getting the right information when you wright an article again.
3
this is just a lie and rumors the paper spread it just to get a fuss and gain more readers, and non of it true. and they turned a huge step forward which catching all the people behind the corruption no matter who are they. and that doesn't happen a lot in all the countries. However, here the paper did really lose it's credibility by getting bribed by a terrorist country to spread these lies.
5
This article is criticizing the Saudi government based on false information & unreliable reports. Earlier you people were saying the Saudi government is so conservative and it must be opened to the world with its Politics and public. Now everything has changed. A new campaign has been made by the crown prince to fight corruption a thing most of you demanded & it succeded. You people explained it that MBS is stealing those people's money!! C'mon. Those people showed all the support after they have been released. Bottom line Saudi is changing for the best that's why this success hurts YOU!. Nowadays the best time of this Kingdom in many aspects, you should support this change that many things were demanded by you.
6
I have been following this newspaper for a long time, but I recently noticed that it started attacking Saudi Arabia and its government with the support from the governments that seeks to destroy the reputation of Saudi Arabia.
5
I'm certain that Trump will just adore the Crown Prince. I mean, the president being an admirer of strongmen the world over, and all. In this one sense, Trump is truly a globalist. This is a truly frightening and important piece of journalism.
5
One stops and thinks: Where can this be headed? What can it mean, for the rest of the world?
I would propose that this is where the world is headed, and the Mercers, Kochs and the rest know it.
At some point the People will come looking for their money, for the wage money stolen from them by their "elites," and no amount of due process will protect them.
The simple point is that the "elites" have profited disproportionately, relative to the workers and masses, and taken too much. They are not contributing to the economy and to the world, anywhere near what they should, and at some point, exactly when I do not know, this excess taking will be resolved, and recovered.
Of course, the comical thing is that the people who will ultimately be arguing about due process are not the poor, the usual victims, but the rich.
1
the writer didn't mention the whole truth and exaggerated way too much and really used his imagination. the fact is the government is fighting corruption and detained the people who have been part of that corruption and didn't care about the country or the sake of it.
11
Oh, right. Clearly. And the hotel detainee who died was probably just jumping on a trampoline on his spacious balcony and bounced a little too far -- over the side. Next time, before you take up the case for a tyrant in the making, I'd suggest you assemble a little evidence. This strong piece of journalism is a little bit too overwhelming to just shrug off, though Trump will clearly come down on your side, given his similar penchant for admiring the muscle over the man.
5
I read the article and found that all articles are wrong and there is no justification for the writer because he is a mercenary and supported by a government aimed at disrupting the efforts of the Saudi government to defeat corruption and terrorism.
11
I do not know why some people think of the reforms in Saudi Arabia in negative way. Most of the Saudi people were demanding major reforms and it was inconceivable that the process of reforming would be extended to members of the royal family. Many of the Saudi people support Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman in order to correct the economy and eliminate the corruption in Saudi Arabia.
9
All the people who have been arrested the government investigate with them and if they are innocent they let them go, but if the charges are proved against them, they have to return the money they stole from the government.
it is not true that the government abused and harm the people in Ritz-Carlton, because the are either from Royal family or famous business men and not criminals!
that's why no one died and no one moved to hospital and what the people are saying is lies.
6
In order to achieve the objectives of Saudi Arabia Vision 2030, the members of the royal family must be purged of corruption. This is what the Saudi government has done. The Saudi government arrested a large number of princes who involved in major financial corruption, because of this most of the Saudi people support the process of reform.
5
Many foreign people do not understand exactly what was happening in Saudi Arabia. King Salman said that any corrupt person will be prosecuted even if he is a prince. After accurate investigations, the Saudi government concluded that the detained princes were corrupt for several issues. That's all
5
It is hard please every one! In the past, some people criticized the silence of the Saudi government toward the corruption in the kingdom. However, when the Saudi government made major reforms to the detention of corrupt princes, people said that this behavior is unacceptable at all ! the arrest of corrupt people is very important to reduce corruption in the kingdom.
18
Fighting corruption is a national duty and everyone is looking for it
Everyone wants to eliminate corruption in the country
The corrupt were punished by Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman
The Saudi people are satisfied with and support these acts
This article did not mention the whole truth and adopts the opposition side!
18
wish to see The Kingdom without corruption as The King always wanted
let us talk with some facts, alright?
Now, long ago there was a never ending debate about the corruption that rotted in the kingdom. All countries were demanding reforming moves.
Now, after King Salman issued an order to work on getting rid of corruption at 2015. Today, MBS launched the movement and apprehended all those affiliated with corruption of any kind! not even their rank nor their role in the society was strong enough to bypass the eradication move.
Furthermore, the people have spoken and showed how much they support this move and how it will contribute in the development and prosperity of the country.
Also, the widely spread rumor that say the arrested were abused an beaten were completely false and none were supported with any evidence. One of the names said to be transported to ICU due to sever injuries of the "abuse" the very next day, the said person was attending a local event with MBS!
Vision 2030 is near and it is happening, we are advancing and moving forward. The time of overwhelming corruption is gone. the world and all of its leaders know that Saudi Arabia is corruption free country.
17
no one has abused these are lies Ritz carlton is not a place of abusing especially there are no evidences it is just talks from journalists seeking fame.
I'm wondering !! In the past, some of people challenged the Saudi government to arrest the corrupt people and some of them are angry right now because the Saudi government arrested the corrupt people and brought them to justice. The arrests came after the Saudi government confirmed the involvement of these princes in illegal operations related to financial corruption, and the majority of the Saudi people support the movements of purifying the corruption in order to achieve the goals of vision 2030.
17
Saudi Arabia is moving to finnish corruption whatever it cost
Saudi Arabia exists because basically Saudi clan were the ones who betrayed the moslem Ottoman Empire to the British for cheapest amount during WW1.
As the strategic value of oil declines the Royal court will no longer enjoy carte-blanche support from the US. Oil being its single national revenue stream and no other industry/services of significant size makes this a desperate situation.
It needs something else to hold it altogether and the new King-in-training sees Saudi nationalism as an answer.
Hence you see the never before seen size of arms purchases and hot/cold conflicts it provokes in the region. Hopes are of binding its population behind a flag against 'evil' forces. Hence the need to build a war-chest, one way or another, for the Kingdom's waning years...
my 2 cents.
8
Saudi Arabia's move of eradicating corruption has been issued by King Salman Bin AbdulAziz in 2015. After long time of studying the situation and keeping an eye on those people. they got apprehended. all of those people were related to malicious deeds. Now, all of those people are free. some of them turned out to be innocent even while some others have admitted what they were doing.
Also, the rumors about the abuse are all false. None of them are supported by any valid evidence. In addition, all those arrested were allowed to hire lawyers to defend themselves.
Lastly, after they were set free, they showed support to MBS's move to eradicate corruption. they are also leading normal lives and enjoying all what it can offer.
14
How reliable are reports from corrupt princes and their entourages who have been robbing the country's wealth for decades. Hard to know who to believe when both sides have dismal records when it comes to honesty
3
Despots around the world are consolidating power as quickly as possible.
With Trump asleep at the wheel of the US, our enemies are playing fast and loose.
I consider the house of Saud an enemy of good around the world.
5
If Saudis ever need a national anthem, they should option the theme from Godfather.
It will explain the whole racket.
8
Jared Kushner should be happy. The Crown Prince is his close "friend" whom he has cultivated. Now he has extorted over a billion dollars. Maybe Mohamed can see his way during his visit to the United States to let Jared's business get a whole lot of money quickly? Since Trump and Kushner are both merrily going about pursuing their business interests without worrying about Robert Mueller's investigation, this might be the moment for them to strike a deal.
5
Who do you trust more, Iranians, Saudi's or Israeli's? Answer: None of them as all three are equally committed to maintaining chaos in the middle east and all three are doing comparatively well compared to rest of middle east, i.e. no refugees.
6
"I think they are using corruption as a tool to further smooth the path towards the eventual succession of the crown prince," said Kristian Coates Ulrichsen, a Middle East fellow at Rice University's Baker Institute for Public Policy before the coup d'état took place.
"At the start of the crackdown they promised transparency, but they did not deliver it," former U.S. Ambassador to Saudi Arabia Robert Jordan told the Times. "Without any kind of transparency or rule of law, it makes investors nervous that their investments might be taken and that their Saudi partners might be detained without any rationale to the charges."
"Towards the end of the Obama presidency, it looked as though America would favor a power balance in the Middle East — as the then president put it, the Saudis and Iranians should ‘share the neighborhood and institute some sort of cold peace.’ Unless Iran and Saudi Arabia tolerate each other’s regional aspirations there will of course be no stability, but Trump, MBS and Benjamin Netanyahu have killed the idea."
--Christopher de Bellaigue
4
The depravity of this regime, corrupt, despotic, violent, ruling by medieval superstition, and impervious to public opinion, should make us cringe whenever we put fuel into a vehicle. Anyone whose title begins with Crown Prince is best suited for the role of harmless wealthy celebrity, not saying or doing anything stupid, satisfied with expensive toys and fond of showing admirers what I have that you will never afford. As for governing 33 million citizens, no way, no where. Given that all 33 million have no tradition, comprehension, nor desire for representative rule, dismantling this hot mess would unleash unspeakable mayhem. If our man, CP, is the least bad of this lot, it may be wisest to let them settle scores and hope our little president has some inkling of what celebrities are best at.
Would we ever have been allies with any Middle Eastern country if we hadn't wanted the oil, to which we are now addicted? And now of course we are caught in a really sticky net of our own making. Anybody who thinks Saudi Arabia is going to be any less repressive than it has ever been, isn't paying attention. The token of letting women drive seems like no more than a Smokescreen.
6
Once again I find myself recommending T. E Lawrence's, "The Seven Pillars of Wisdom." Though written almost a century ago, it is indispensable for an understanding of the Middle East today.
For those inclined toward movies, resist the temptation to see "Lawrence of Arabia" as a substitute. It is, not surprisingly, very superficial.
5
In Russia and China, going after corruption was merely a pretext by Putin and Xi, respectively, to steal hundreds of billions in assets away from political opponents and put it into the hands of themselves and their coterie of close supporters.
8
While Crown Prince, Mohammed bin Salman (MbS) managed to squeeze some 100 billion from the billionaires and elites he let detained in Ritz Carlton as part of his anti-graft campaign last November, he seems above law.
Since his father, King Salman ascended the throne in January 2015, MbS has amassed enormous power. He made headlines when he bought a 440-foot yacht for $500 million from a Russian tycoon while holidaying in Southern France in 2014. The deal with the owner was done within hours and Yuri Shefler vacated the yacht the same day. This drew criticism as he was pushing through drastic austerity measures at home, like slashing state budget at a time of low oil prices.
He bought a newly-built chateau in France for $300 million in 2015 and the Leonardo da Vinci painting for $400 million excluding 50 million commission and fee last November. No one in Saudi Arabia questions the wisdom of these purchases, even if the sources were legal.
11
In a country with no legislature, and no law corruption means "Someone else has money , and I want it now." How can you talk about illegal acts if there is no law?
9
I think Mr. Gillers may be mistaking chivalry for ethics. The rule of chivalry, far from being about good manners, was based on preserving the feudal order. So, apparently, is the rule of the Saudi king.
The point of being a lawyer is to promote the rule of law. The rule of law stands in direct opposition to the rule of a monarch.
An ethical lawyer working for the House of Saud must inform his client of the limits of his/her (as if) representation and make it clear that he (or she, as if that's even a possibility in Saudi) will not take unethical positions on the king's behalf.
Ethics, at least among some of us, is still a commitment to certain principles of conduct and treatment of others.
3
A falling out among thieves.
Does any of this affect America?
That is the question to be considered.
And hopefully analyzed by the knowledgeable.
Less relevant, maybe, than the Goldman succession story.
Though for all we know, the two stories may actually be related.
1
The House of Saud has a new king. But will it be business as usual? Will Saudi Arabia's horrific record of human rights abuse continue? Today, death sentences for apostasy and adultery are common. Corporal punishments including flogging and amputation are inflicted - and more people than ever before are being beheaded. Arbitrary arrests of dissenters and minorities continue, freedom of speech is non-existent and the jailing of vocal critics such as blogger Raif Badawi by a judiciary which is totally State controlled, continue.
All this, plus the pro-active and enthusiastic funding and sponsoring of murder of innocents abroad. (Yet the USA has approved the sale of $USD110 billion of arms to this family.) Now the come seeking more. We wait.
3
"Coercion and abuse...." Sounds like a very stable government and reliable partner. Just the place to invest.
The Wahhibi imams have been around longer than the house of Saud and the two remain in power by supporting each other. Once the Crown Prince goes too far in relaxing the pervasive strict religious rules that govern virtually every facet of the Kingdom, all bets are off.
If investors dislike uncertainty, Saudi Arabia is not the place to consider right now.
5
I love the fact that the Times pursued this story. Its importance to us is debatable but it certainly is interesting.
2
Because of polygamy, the Saudi royals have large progenies, members of which have large inherited wealth but not the right of succession for the kingdom.
In the Mughal Empire in India, it was the unwritten rule that the prince who ascended the throne had all his brothers murdered in order to avoid any challenge to the throne.
The Saudi Kingdom is taking a leaf from the Mughal kings, though perhaps less brutally.
5
I still believe that this quote from Matt Damon's character regarding a large, wealthy oil-based kingdom in the ME in the movie, "Syriana," is presciently accurate. " You know what the business world thinks of you? They think a hundred years ago you were living in tents out here in the desert chopping each other's heads off and that's exactly where you'll be in another hundred years- so on behalf of my firm, yes, I accept your money."
3
Reeling. I was told all rich people are good.
8
Royalty is a more polite expression for "stealing money through dictatorship." Goes for all Royalties way beyond Saudi Arabia. Look at the Netherlands in the center of Europe: palaces galore, King married to the daughter of an Argentinian government murderer but now "The Queen of the Netherlands," annual salary some one million Euro for each but no taxes. Dutch middle class constantly brainwashed that this is the best thing ever, during WW2 while fighting the Germans (actually the US soldiers did) singing the National Anthem "I am of German Blood," on-and-on in nonsense while collecting the money.
Saudi and Dutch Royalty are so identical as are all Royalties: Thievery by the gallon.
3
Our president was so happy to participate in a sword dance with these greedy,unethical rulers.Why? Well the military industrial complex made a financial killing, selling them weapons.Kind of similar to our support of the current leader of Israel.So happy to know where my tax dollars are going.Supporting antisocial billionaires.I miss my parents, members of the greatest generation,but so glad they are not alive to witness how low our country has sunk.
4
The new Saudi King points an accusing finger at others while four fingers point right back at him.
Corruption begets corruption. Fiefdoms and kingdoms are usually corrupt because too much arbitrary power and control are in the hands of a few so-called royal people and their sycophants. The biggest joke is when a so-called king talks about ending corruption while appropriating to himself unquestioned rights of access to the nation's treasures.
This is the stuff that tyranny is made of. Arbitrary and capricious detention and expropriation of assets without transparency and due process. The whole system stinks because, for the 21st century, these anachronistic systems need to be swept into the garbage can of human history.
The only way to clean up the state is to end the corrupting influence of so-called royalty and push for a constitutional democracy where equal rights for all, regardless of station in life, prevails.
It is unfortunate that far too many people, Trump included, have cuddled up to, rather than denounce, these arbitrary and obscurantists regimes. What a shame!
4
"One case involved a Saudi military officer who died in custody. One person who saw the corpse of the officer, Maj. Gen. Ali al-Qahtani, said that his neck was twisted unnaturally as though it had been broken, and that his body was badly bruised and distended. His skin showed other signs of physical abuse, the person said.
A doctor and two other people briefed on the condition of the body said that it had burn marks that appeared to be from electric shocks.
In the emailed response to questions about General Qahtani, an official of the Saudi Embassy in Washington said, “All allegations of abuse and torture of those investigated during the anti-corruption proceedings are absolutely untrue.”
The official added that the detainees had “full access” to legal counsel and medical care."
So, their prince ran his own Gulag at the Ritz! Wouldn't want to visit there for a "neck massage".
Their only saving grace is that many of them probably did the same thing to "obtain" their fortunes.
7
There's a special function within the Patriarchal World on the status of the women.
In the Patriarchal World the status of the women serves the function of warning the men, "Do as you are told or you, too, will wind up with the status of a woman."
Women have no say.
Women will have their movements tracked.
Women shall not have their own money.
They will not have weapons.
They do not vote.
They do not inherit.
They are subject to coercion and physical abuse.
They will not be party to legal process.
No longer are these men treated like Princes and men of means.
They are the "New Women".
They will do as they are told.
Any man is a fool if he knowingly deals with a Patriarchal Man, for, once he runs out of women to abuse he will as easily turn to whoever is at hand, and, since Power has nothing to do with which genitals one is born with (yes, yes, the Patriarchal Man will insist that it does, but, like Trump, the Patriarchal Man ALWAYS lies!) these people will abuse anyone at hand.
Don't take it personally.
On the other hand, if invited to head out into the Empty Quarter in a jeep.... Don't, unless you have mastered the difficult art of sand-breathing.
Seriously.... you never saw this one coming....?
9
A falling out among thieves.
Does any of this affect America?
That is the question to be considered.
Less relevant, maybe, than the Goldman succession story.
6
What about the ownership of the Ritz Carlton? A simple search shows it’s an American company, headed by Marriott. Has the Marriott group demonstrated any backbone in objecting to the use of their property in this shakedown? While mustering sympathy for those detained is somewhat challenging given the lifestyles they have led, it is coercion at the least, but more accurately it is stealing, torture, and murder. Silence on the part of Marriott makes them party to the crimes.
5
Marriott's worth is loose change in relation to the wealth of the Saudis. If the American establishment is restrained with their measured reaction to this wealth redistribution campaign, do you really expect a motel to chime in?
One hundred and six billion is what they have in their pockets when they go to Walgreen's for Zantac...
5
Not that I agree with this sort of asset collection , but would be so interesting what the results would be with my cities political leaders locked in a red roof inn
I am sure same results just not as large figures
1
Like the "anti-terror campaign" any "anti-corruption campaign" is also a very useful political tool. They are better slogans than "drain the swamp".
Saudi's anti-corruption is just as effective as China's. Under the slogan the rulers can take down their enemies or even adversaries, confiscate their money - even in China there are said to be mumbling about where did the confiscated cash went - and generates cheer from the subjects.
Both campaigns, while lacking in what the West calls due process and transparency, are waged under the promise of transparency and rule of law (or even rule according to the constitution in the Chinese case). So words and deeds are different, just like the words and deeds of Trump in the US.
Having said that, I fail to see why the lack of due process or transparency or rule of law in those countries are our business. Isn't that their internal standard? If they do not believe in the same set of fundamental assumptions as we do, who is to say they are wrong and we are right? Whether we like it or approve of it or not it is their process applied to their people within their borders. If you don't like it you don't have to go there. Do we really want to export our "model" that gives us Donald Trump whose administration is full of self dealing, corruption, lies, and no ethics, on top of vicious attacks on established governmental and nongovernmental institutions that are deemed to be backbones of our democracy?
3
Excellent points of view. I'm surprised it took the NY Times so long to write about this revolution in Saudi Arabia. Just like you said, democracy and transparency have disappeared from China and are slowly disappearing here under Trump. Russia is another mess.
3
Nowhere in this article there is a mention of the fact that the 'Prince' also arrested the Prime Minister of a sovereign nation and kept him locked up for weeks after forcing him to RESIGN on Saudi TV. All that of course, for some mysterious reason, didn't generate as much headline in US, as say anything done by Erdogan or Putin.
Now watch your pension funds invest in bonds securing those 'investments' going to Saudi Arabia. Who reads the fine print, right? I'm still trying to figure out who GS sold those missing $6.5 Billion Malaysian bonds to. No doubt some of our pension money went into smoke there too.
5
The U.S. should replace the Federal Income Tax with this sort of system. It is more progressive, hitting only people who can afford to pay, and leaving the lower 99% out entirely from tax.
6
A possible silver lining?
A group of formerly very powerful people may have acquired an existential insight into how democracy and the (relative) rule of law it brings with it, has some advantages of plutocracy and an authoritarian monarchy.
3
A squabble amongst rich mobsters, as far as I'm concerned. I'm not sympathetic to either the businessmen nor the Saudi government.
7
There has been speculation of Jared Kushner trying to get loans from China and UAE.
Given Trump / Kushner ties to the Saudis, why doesn't he get his refinancing for 666 from the Saudis?
4
This first move could turn out good or bad.
Stripping the corrupt Saudi aristocracy of their ill gotten gains is step 1 in what could be a true reform/economic revolution.
Or could just be a coup.
I guess we'll see.
I personally don't see stripping oligarchs such as the Bin Laden family of shares of their state-subsidized enterprises is the world's worst human rights abuse.
1
Saudi Arabia is an exporter of terrorism with their twisted Wahhabism. ISIS was funded by many of the billionaire's in this country. The rise of many of these hate groups come out of their 14 century interpretation of the Quran which has emboldened so much killing including the men on 9/11 that took down the twin towers. I understand that they are US strategic allies but they have never been a friend. To think otherwise is delusional which is why I'm concerned that our current leader doesn't understand or care. I could care less what they do to each other. Family fights are not anyone's business. Atrocities committed by them used to matter in my America. But without a functioning State Dept. (aka newest Walmart) human rights are ignored.
3
"Show me who your friends are, and I’ll tell you who you are."
2
The Prince is the Perfect guest for Trump. I’m sure Trump will laud his new BFF’s crackdown on corruption with the same admiration as he had for Duarte’s crackdown on drug dealers and users.
5
Research shows Trump probably sold out Qatar and Yemen, while handing over billions in arms to the Saudis, and a big thumbs up to the palace purge.
In turn, Saudi Arabia gave a $100 million check to Trump's daughter Ivanka's unsupervised "women's" fund...while treating Trump like royalty when he visited there. Very much a quid pro quo.
Of course, incumbent Republicans looked the other way, as in nothing to see here. Look over there! A squirrel!
Michael Wolff's book 'Fire and Fury' revealed that when Mohammed bin Salman became the new crown prince, Trump boasted he and Jared Kushner had 'their man on top.'
For 9 months Wolff sat in meetings and went to offices in the white house. Invited, he walked in, recorded and took copious notes. Staff spoke openly to him---and frequently.
This is the book Trump tried to stop from being published.
10
No sane U.S. corporation should do business with Saudi Arabia.
Owner of U.S. corporation X to Saudi prince: "Where do I sign over ownership of my company to you?"
2
This is what should have been done to Wall Street Ceo's,Cow's and The Boards of every Wall Street Bank , Robo signing houses.
3
Sounds like an updated version of the life (and “trials” and deaths) of musicians and writers and artists (Mikhoels, Markish, Eisenstein) under Stalin — except for the billions in assets. The Russian artists had critical and artful voices, of great value to Russians. The Lubyanka was hardly the Ritz, but the terror, the 4:00 a.m. summons, being held incommunicado, the government control of media, the fear (and its occasional courageous counterparts) and the other totalitarian necessities were not dissimilar. Now US business men and, doubtless, greedy and naive Jarrod the K and his big daddy will award Mohammed bin Salman a royal welcome.
1
This is exactly why Trump likes them and wants to be them.
6
If the Crown Prince does become king, he'll be the first grandson of Ibn Saud to sit on the throne of Saudi Arabia.
His problem is there are dozens of other grandsons and grand daughters of Ibn Saud who will be asking, "Why the son of the youngest Ibn Saud son? Why not me?"
That's the nature of Saudi Arabia's peculiar line of succession — along the line of Ibn Saud sons rather than descendants of the eldest.
This may well be an economic shakedown, but it's also power consolidation .
Once the king dies and Prince Mohammed bin Salman takes over, there may well be an interlude when the proverbial hits the fan.
4
The most fundamental right in any society is the right to Due Process. And Saudi does not have it. I would no more visit Saudi than I would North Korea.
7
The sins of the fathers are paid for seven generations, or something like that.
Churchill looked at the Middle East during WWI when he was minister of War. He saw the future of the British naval fleet and, therefore, empire was changing from coal to oil.
The British and the French came up with the Sykes-Picot agreement.
The Zionist movement was declared in 1890.
The British added the Balfour Declaration to attract the Americans to help in WWI.
With the German-Turkish defeat and the fall of the Ottoman empire, the British and French made all the other Arab countries but kept Palestine a British Mandate.
Hitler gave us the Holocaust.
The West felt guilty and let Israel take half of Palestine in 1948 in payment for the Holocaust.
In 1953, the US-British instigated Iranian coup ousted their elected Prime Minister because he wanted to nationalize he BP oil fields.
The Saudis exported Wahhabism to other Arab countries.
15 of the 19 9-11 hijackers were Saudi.
The Saudis are our best ally.
Saudi Arabia has almost one-fifth of the world's proven oil reserves and ranks as the largest producer and exporter of oil in the world.
3
Even though Trump wants to establish an autocracy, this is still, for the most part, America. However, Saudi Arabia is an autocracy and ruled by a powerful family. I think of interest to Americans should be how do the people in any country allow or support an autocracy. This would be a good question for those people interested in China. We have a lot of red-neck and even non-red-neck Americans who want to be ruled by an "iron-man." Why? Why do the Saudis accept other than legacy.
3
One hundred billion dollars is less than one quarter of the amount that Crown Prince Bin Salman paid for a yacht he bought on a whim. It's also less than one quarter of the amount he reportedly paid for a painting of Christ.
This is the man who complained about corruption in the Saudi government!?
8
Are you confusing millions for the yacht, painting, real estate, etc. for billions?
2
Saudi society needs to wake up from its deep slumber and embrace the idea of a modern democratic secular state. Otherwise corruption, religious intolerance, inequality and denial of human rights would continue in the desert kingdom. The world opinion should force the Saudi monarch to open the society, not only for investments, but new ideas.
3
I agree with what the above gentleman said. It is high time that Saudai Arabia also embraces for a democratic secular state. Ultimately that is the best solution under the circumstances. It is not a new idea; but it is a well-experimented truth.
Royalty is all corrupt. All their money is ill-gotten.
This is simply the king consolidating power against the aristocracy. In old England, the Magna Carta was a response to a similar attempt.
But still, they should all be in prison. Whether one lets women drive or not is irrelevant.
4
A normal American President would have contempt for this kind of extra-legal proceedings. You can be sure, Trump has nothing but envy.
15
The fact that the United States openly supports this regime while pretending to take the moral high ground against other countries such as North Korea, Iran, Syria, Russia, etc... is a clear signal to the rest of the World of how easily bought our military and munitions support is. Will undoubtedly be looked back on as one of the more shameful alliances in our history. It's a complete joke. Saudi Arabia IS the most backward and oppressive country there is. Letting women drive is seen as an almost unbelievable milestone.
Not that there are not other complications with Russia specifically, but these alliances weaken our global standing and ability to criticize leaders like Putin since we so proudly support arguably more corrupt and murderous leaders such as King Salman.
11
I think it hysterical that the Saudis are robbing each other. Meanwhile, so many poor people are lying in the streets of Saudi Arabia
6
Once you have a taste for luxuries you will do most anything to get them.
1
They're foreign workers imported to do all the work.
Not good. I never liked the concept of Saudi Arabia, much less the regime, but ankle bracelets? On most of the 'elite' population?? And, Turkey the NATO turkey?
These were, allegedly, allies. Still are under Drumpf, apparently, but time is on my side.
2
While this is excellent reporting, the reporters who wrote this piece were far too polite when they refer to this "crackdown" as being outside any "clear legal process". Here's the process: Tom Friedman's good friend, Mohammed bin Salman, woke up one day and decided to get rid of some potentially troublesome citizens and royals. The Saudi police show up, lock them n a glided prison, and then present a bill, and the rest is reported here. bin Salman is getting great press in the West as a modernizer. By Saudi standards, he certainly is. But generally, like Putin and Xi and their henchmen, MSM is just another kleptocrat. His royal motto should be "What's Mine is Mine. And What's Yours is Mine Too".
4
The house of Saud is like a not so smart child inheriting a fortune.
Mostly the money is squandered, and is swindled by anyone and everyone.
I hope the Saudi Arabians haven’t lost their skills as pearl divers.
4
Doesn't this drive an ordinary Saudi citizen crazy?
Let's hope the government spends money wisely--getting some sound advice from the modern and traditional experts in psychology, ethics, law, economics, politics, ancient culture....and queen Elizabeth!....and President Trump.
1
I cannot wait for Trumps next speech extolling the virtues of Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman shakedown of his countries richest people. Of course he will excuse himself and a select few other billionaires but maybe that is how he will close the deficit gap.
3
The death or killing of Major General Ali Al-Qahtani in jail is disturbing. This brutal death by torture is totally uncivilized and unacceptable. Corruption by royal family members and by the 'rich sheikh' is endemic and perpetual . These Saud family members have been supported and protected by American administration for decades . Specially Bush family and Saud family ties and deep friendship is historic. Lack of democracy, discrimination, torturing enemies, lavish life style of princes, abuse of human rights have been well known in America and all over the world. 11 Saudi Citizens were involved in 9/11 World Trade Center bombing . G W Bush allowed Saudi Royal family members to leave America when no other plane could fly.
11
$106 billion haul from the rich Saudis straight into the treasure trove of MBS. A point made about transparency and corruption intolerance. Meanwhile, MBS is on a shopping spree buying masterpieces, maseratis, silk carpets and crystal chandeliers!
3
And a $330 Million Chateau in France and a $550 Million yacht from a Russian billionaire.
http://observer.com/2017/12/saudi-prince-mohammed-bin-salman-owns-a-vers...
2
"Businessmen once considered giants of the Saudi economy now wear ankle bracelets that track their movements."
In America, a businessman who ran Donald Trump's campaign now wears 2 ankle bracelets that track his movements.
(But that was our special prosecutor looking into Team Trump crimes.)
The month before 11 Saudi princes were arrested, 3 senior White House officials, including Jared Kushner, were in Saudi Arabia "for meetings."
The palace power grab of rivals happened just after Kushner's secret trip to meet the future king---they stayed up until 4am 'swapping stories' ...
Anyone remember in 2015 when Trump tweeted "Dopey Prince @Alwaleed_Talal wants to control our U.S. politicians with daddy’s money. Can’t do it when I get elected."
President Donald Trump in Nov. 2017 supported that power grab by Saudi Arabia's rising king. On Jan. 17, 2018. The Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia bragged that he had the backing of President Donald Trump for his November coup d'etat.
10
Time to cut our relationship with the Saudis. The Al Saud clan is a incestuous, decadent group of pleasure seekers whose only clam to wealth is their hold on the throne of an oil rich state. Boot them out, have elections and let the Saudi people drive real reform. The world will be a better place.
4
Who do you trust more, Iranians, Saudi's or Israeli's? Answer: none of them as all three are equally committed to chaos in the middle east and all three are doing quite well financially.
4
I still remember when NYT's own columnist Thomas L Friedman quoted MBS verbatim when the latter said:
"Under Saudi law, the public prosecutor is independent. We cannot interfere with his job — the king can dismiss him, but he is driving the process … We have experts making sure no businesses are bankrupted in the process” — to avoid causing unemployment"
Saudi Arabia’s Arab Spring, at Last https://nyti.ms/2i0mwfg
Mr. Friedman is quick to celebrate even a semblance of liberal attitudes and superficial granting of rights and freedoms. I wish he were more critical of his friends in high but unstable pedestals.
Mr. Friedman also has a habit of jumping the gun when it comes to broad policy strokes by governments who are on the verge of becoming illiberal democracies.
https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/11/28/opinion/forget-trump-and-discover-...
His effusive support for India's Aadhar card scheme lacked the critical insight of the multitude of problems present in the system. From poor encryption of sensitive data, access to the database being sold for a measly $10, to massive privacy violations. All because he is chummy with its chief architect, Nandan Nilekalni, and was blinded by the latter's Harvard credentials.
You are a gifted writer sir, please don't waste that talent on batting for the wrong team.
8
When has he ever batted for the right team?
4
How many billions did Jared want for himself?
4
Trump has a well reported bromance with Putin.
He called and congratulated China premier with the term expansion.
He called and congratulated Saudi Prince with the family take over of funds and assets.
He wants all this for his family too.
We all need to exercise our vote.
All incumbents out.
If one doesnt think the two party system is broken, one needs to revisit the definition of insanity.
8
There has been oil money sloshing around Saudi Arabia for years and the tangled web of family and fortunes should not be ours to solve.We can however stand for our own democratic principles and not put out a royal welcome mat for Crown Prince Salman who has questions to answer.Allowing women to drive and expanding entertainment does not mean that he and his kingdom are reliable partners in solving problems in the Middle East and that American money should be invested in his adventures.
5
I suppose MBS looked to history in the person of King Faisal who took power in 1964 by deposing the corrupt and ineffectual King Saud and went on to modernize ( to a degree, but it is 1964 ) and reform the government, but Faisal was both pious and not corrupt ( relatively ). MBS actions of an almost billion dollar personal spending spree of houses, yachts, and paintings repudiate his anti-corruption credentials in contrast to Faisal. Though assassinated in 1975, Faisal remains one of the Kingdoms most revered figures and this could provide a negative contrast for the upstart MBS if his true intentions are financial and political self-aggrandizement. Friedman take note.
2
Fighting financial corruption is an smokescreen for eliminating the opponents of the crown prince. Salman family want to eliminate any opposition for MBS's ascension to the thrown. Taking away the opposition's financial capability they defang and weaken them. In the process MBS gets 100's of billions from Abdullah's family. Corruption is in the DNA of the SA royal family and will continue under MBS.
3
These guys are not our friends. We ignore what they are really up to cause they have oil. Obama's plan was to wean ourselves off of fossil fuels so we could get out of the region. Trump's plan is the opposite. Who do you think had the better plan?
6
Tom Friedman, among other columnists, touted the efforts of MBS to clean up corruption, root out religious extremism, expand women's rights and bring Saudi Arabia into modernity. It was nevertheless apparent that in his quest to achieve his "admirable" goals he was using authoritarian strong arm tactics to effectuate a power grab. His hostages not only forfeited riches to the state (being the same as the ruling royal family) but renounced claims to official title.
The abandonment of legality, due process and legislative regularity should have wrung alarm bells to those who thought MBS' held his nations' interest paramount . It appears that in fact he is a power hungry autocrat.
As to rooting out corrupt parasites feeding off the Saudi government coffers, I wonder how did Prince MBS accumulate his wealth? After school paper route? Worked night shift at 7-11 while studying at Prince school?
Pundit's who praised he so-called modernity campaign should have cut through the hype by using Occam's razor. If a would-be ruler uses strong arm tactics to achieve power he is most likely to continue those tactics as a corrupt tyrant.
Our country's chief autocrat and royal family also seem smitten by MBS and his dreams of constructing a Xanadu powered with our nuclear technology and defended with armaments and aircraft sold by our manufacturers. We need to take Occam's razor to the "ly'in's" mane to reveal his empty head as he is entangles us in MBS's expansionist ambitions.
2
I can recall generations ago when some leftists urged "ex-appropriating the ex-appropriators", ie take from those who had stolen. This looks more like the biggest carnivore devouring the smaller carnivores (ie those who are merely low level billionaires).
Another autocrat for Trump to embrace and admire, although he must be grinding his teeth in envy of the Crown Prince's uninhibited lock-'em-up strategy and ability to strip away and claim as his own the wealth of his political enemies or of anybody he pleases, for that matter.
No doubt the Clown Prince will welcome the Crown Prince to Washington with all the pomp and circumstance a medieval ruler would consider his due.
3
One can not ignore the substantial reforms that the crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman (MbS) has undertaken so far, which are unprecedented. Furthermore, the crackdown on corruption has more than a single objective. power consolidation by MbS is another important end. While violation of human rights and denial of the due process of law should be condemned, MbS should be encouraged to pursue the his transformation strategy, while urged to protect the rights his citizens. for a full and objective take on the Saudi Transformation go here: https://www.khalilzahr.com/single-post/2018/01/11/The-Saudi-Transformati...
Every despot cloaks his abuses and power grabs through a facade of righteousness.
3
We have no business dealing with the murderous theocracy who trained and sponsored the 9/11 terrorists. October's glowing reports of the new Saudi ruler's "anti-corruption" seizures of wealthy men and their family fortunes was as obviously untrue as the claim that Trump was a good businessman. If anyone believed the reports, they were just fooling themselves, and/or in on the corruption.
4
While the article mentions that the current Saudi rulers view the late King Abdullah's side of the family as rivals, it avoids linking the events there to a more serious situation, such as a perceived or an actual palace coup. But examining the list of detained non-royals indicate that such speculations may not be entirely meritless.
Majority of Saudi princes are educated abroad and many live in countries such as France and Britain. That makes them a primary target of various intelligence organizations who monitor their communications and every move to get insights into what is happening in the Kingdom. One could venture that conversations among some princes on the need for changes at the top has been intercepted and, for political and/or economic reasons, have been passed on to the current regime. And what is being reported here and elsewhere is the Saudi regime's attempt to nip a perceived coup attempt in the bud. That is one scenario that explains the presence of Maj. Gen. Ali al-Qahtani among the detainees, his torture as well as subsequent killing.
While extracting more than 100 billion dollars from those detained may appear impressive, in reality, it is a drop in the ocean for the Saudis. Annually, they spend much more than that on their Wahhabi organizations and madrasa all over the world. So, releasing such figures can be simply their attempt to portray what is going on as "an anti-corruption crusade", which in turn legitimizes the detentions.
3
I do not understand the logic about why the US looks the other way when unbelievable atrocities are committed and humanitarian laws are broken by Saudi Arabia. What gives? We don't need their oil anymore. All the terror and murders wrought on us have been by Saudis. Their violent involvement is directly towards us. They commit genocide in Yemen with our guns and planes. And now they are also threatening our economy. Ironically we will be welcoming the very man, MBS with open arms, praising, wining, dining, promising more sophisticated weapons and planes and most important opening our shores for trade. We will be imposing tariffs on Canada, Mexico, EU - real allies, destroying their economy. ( not to mention, ours! ) It is not only Trump but all previous administrations have done the same. But Iran? Why do we hate a country which never had a confrontation directly with us? There is the downing of the Panam flight but so did we topple their democratically elected government and install a very cruel despot, the Shah. MBS is coming to town and Trump must be shopping for the biggest and the most gaudy chandelier there is.
2
I look at the picture and wonder why there are only men.
Its hard for me to consider the the money issues as being fair or unfair to these men when half their society has limited freedom.
1
The Saudi royal family is utterly corrupt. It's a monarchy and they can do whatever they want without repercussions - besides palace intrigue that could lead to some problems. This is to forestall that.
Now, we need something like that over here. Would it not be a delight to see Wall Street crooks behind bars? And that's just for starters. Their cell mates can be their puppets in government! Wouldn't it be wonderful?
2
Who better to launch an'anti-corruption' campaign than a crown prince who has spent over $1billion on such trinkets as a yacht, a resort, and a precious paining? Where did MBS get this pocket money? Certainly there is wide-spread corrruption in Saudi Arabia. certainly some of the princes have lived high off the hog. However, rounding up hundreds of Saudi princes and businessmen, gathering them at the Ritz-Carlton, and then shaking them down without regard to legal procedures gives a foul smell to 'anti-corruption.'
Torture up to death is not a civilized way to shake down people. Moreover, if such flagrant actions are condone against leading Saudi businessmen, what assurance is there that such
Would not again occur to Saudi businessmen, Saudi businesses, and foreign investments? Seems like MBS is now law in Saudi Arabia. TRoubling!
1
I'm guessing that right now Trump is asking his lawyers how he can do that here.
5
Why is anyone surprised? In the day of rapid communications and technology they somehow believe they can still continue their subjection of women immersed in a 5th C. religion and set of rules regarding women. It's ludicrous in today's world.
1
Mr. Trump is empowering despots and spreading despotism. It is that simple. It is that clear.
Saudi Arabia makes perfect sense once we revisit the early days of the Trump administration. Saudi Arabia was, after all, his first overseas trip.
Trump and Trump's America have no moral standing whatsoever. His administration serves the rich and the powerful. Any number of international firms are willing to assist any entity who pays them.
This president and his unconditional approval have given the Saudi government license to do as it wished, so long as it presented an investor-friendly face to the world.
Trump's vile words and actions are leaving behind an unbroken strand of fetid pearls.
1
The western liberal media was hoodwinked from the beginning of this shakedown with the dog whistle they always wanted to hear "women are being given the right to drive" and can "now watch soccer games in public." And for this simple acceptance of 'human rights' the west turned their backs and closed their eyes to the extortion, brutality, and continued oppression that is the everyday game plan of the house of Saudi. As for Mr. Muhammad- meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
6
Between 1980 and 2016, real per capita GDP in Saudi Arabia decreased by an astonishing 41.4%, while total factor productivity between 1980 and 2014 decreased by 54.7%. A definitively destructive economy, continually producing and concentrating and dissipating vast wealth.
6
Add to this NBC’s recent info of our foreign policies up for sale from these SH Arab countries in order to get America’s support for the Qatar embargo. Remember Jared didn’t get payola from Qatar and then a few days later the embargo against Qatar, our ally, took place. Tillerson appears to be out of the loop on Corruption R US foreign policy.
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/national-security/qataris-opted-not-giv...
10
Their money, their kingdom. Americans cringe at the thought of a spanking but brush off school shootings as the price to pay for the freedom and liberty to live large. Maybe those loose-fitting robes allow more blood to get to the brain, unlike our constricting neckties and tight collars.
2
those loose robes conceal oil money only received by a few in Saudi Arabia and even fewer now with this intra-family shake down. If you are an admirer of this authoritarian state as are many in the conservative cause in this country, then seek an emigre status. It’s a heaven for alpha-males that America’s loss of would surely be her gain.
Very informative article with statistics in the Guardian this morning....
Saudi Arabia is world’s second biggest arms importer, with global US sales up by 25% in past five years
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/mar/12/nearly-half-of-us-arms-exp...
9
Ah interesting. A shake down. Now on to the US of A and a shake down. See who received the bribes.
7
I am reminded Monty Python: Nobody would expect a Spanish Inquisition! Poke him with the soft cushions! Not working .... Fetch the comfy chair! Tsk tsk jailed at the Ritz ensconced in butter soft leather amid trappings so tacky they remind one of Trump's place.
The real question here is, for a report that reads as as ridiculous as my post, why has this been written at all? I will say this it has the makings of a reality TV show that Americans would drool over.
2
I've just returned from Saudi and actually stayed in The Ritz. Far from nobody talking about what happened EVERYONE is talking about it in Saudi and there is massive support for what the Crown Prince has done. It appears to me these reporters wrote this piece from afar with a few stock Ritz photos. Far too long these old men have siphoned off billions from the Saudi government through bribery providing nothing in return and everyone in Government turned a blind eye because of the trillions pouring in from oil.
Mohammed Bin Salman or "MBS" as he is known in Saudi realizes they have to actually plan for a future without oil is actually illustrating his concern for the country and young Saudis.
And real change looks like it's happening from the new women driving schools to women security officers at Riyadh airport while we have a racist President in love with pre civil war values and molesting women.
8
Who's future is he planning for with his new $550m yacht, $300m house and $450 da Vinci painting?
I guess people haven't read Machiavelli's The Prince? Or Coup d'etat. Or dozens of other books on overthrowing governments...
4
The Saudi Monarch , Duterte and Trump - are great heroes of transparency and honesty in public life. Thugs all.
10
In 1976 the Saudi Royal Family founded SABIC, Saudi Arabia Basic Industries Corporation. SABIC manufactures chemicals and intermediates, industrial polymers, fertilizers, and metals. SABIC was the world's 4th largest chemical producer in 2013
Americans will be thrilled to hear that SABIC is partnering with Exxon to build the largest ethane cracking plant in the world, in a residential suburb of Corpus Christi. SABIC and Exxon will spend approximately $9.8 Billion in that endeavor which they call Gulf Coast Growth Ventures
SABIC is the largest public company in Saudi Arabia, but the Saudi "government" still owns 70% of its shares. In Saudi Arabia the government and the King-then-in-office are legally the same. Private shareholders in SABIC are from Saudi Arabia and other countries of the six-nation Gulf Cooperation Council
The site of the new plant is in San Patricio County territory. In Texas no local government agency may impose ordinances or regulations affecting or limiting what can be built or what businesses can do in county territory. The Texas Dept of Environmental Quality will be the sole Texas agency with control over the new cracking plant
Ethane is a component of natural gas, abundant in Texas Eagle Ford shale. A cracking plant processes ethane—or ‘cracks’ it—into ethylene by heating the ethane so hot that it breaks apart the molecular bonds. Cracking plants usually feed nearby plants that create more refined petroleum based products, like plastic pellets
3
And US Government sleeps in the same bed!
7
Just like the USA, we've been conducting warrantless asset seizures here completely out of due process for years. Think you're not living in an autocratic state, think again.
7
Trump will ask, why he can't do this to Mueller.
4
This is a shakedown plain and simple. The fact that this 'anti-corruption drive' is being instigated by the Crown Prince, a man of no known income, who nevertheless in the past year has purchased a $500 million painting, a $600 million palace (in France) and a $450 million yacht from a Russian oligarch is absolutely laughable. When the history of Saudi Arabia is written, it will say that the House of Saud's downfall began with a willful little prince and his panache for starting wars and alienating his own family.
7
In Saudi Arabia if you are rich you are corrupt. If you are corrupt there is 90% chance you are a friend of America. If you are rich and a friend of America, there is 9000% certainty you are corrupt.
Most Americans claiming to be a friends of Arabia, are on the take, they are PAID (or earn money) through shady deals with Saudi Inner Circle (or Royals). The word/name Saudi is synonymous with "TOTAL CORRUPTION"
6
It all reminds me of the Glaouis in Morocco during the turn of the 20th century. The new guy on top would cheerfully destitute the other branches of the family.
MbS is much less a reformer than a reviver of a longstanding medieval tradition.
Abdul Azziz ruled with a generosity of heart.
1
Who would have thought that when the unelected rulers of a kingdom arrested everyone in one night and took all their wealth it was not an above-board proceeding? Colour me shocked!
(Although most of that money was ill-gotten gains in the first place. To be honest, I think that's the only kind of wealth there is in that country. But we love them anyway, right? Despite those pesky human rights violations!)
2
Like most of the surrounding countries not many good guys there.
2
To be brutally honest, I could care less if a bunch of Saudi Royals lose their riches, honestly earned or not. The whole 'Royal Family' concept was completely out of control. Having a single ruler, no matter how ugly, is a step towards a more modern system of government, and hopefully a step away from theocracy. Now if only we had a president who could actually capitalize on this opening...
Saudi Arabia is run by a brutal, aggressive family with a terrible human rights record. They are devastating the region yet we remain their steadfast ally pushing for war on Iran. We would do far better abandoning the Saudi regime and working with Iran.
3
Iran is much, much worse than Saudi. Their human rights record is as bad, or worse, and any devastation and instability that Saudi has visited on the region pales in comparison to what Iran has done in Iraq, Syria, Lebanon and, yes, Yemen.
Only people who know nothing about the ME think Iran is somehow more deserving of our support. Sorry.
If the Prince is serious about reform , will he do away with the stoning or beheading of women for adultery , the cutting off the hand for stealing , the massive unemployment of their nation's youth , radical beliefs promulgated by Wahabbism which keeps the Kingdom in the dark ages . Or is this simply exchanging several wealthy princes into a super wealthy monarch in control of it all? The promise to let women drive , to expand entertainment opportunities , and encouraging foreign investment sound rather odd as reforms .
6
Having been in that part of the world, one has to be there to get some level of understanding of the impact of this act which this article doesn't cover. The entire ME region is watching what is going on - and most approve of it. However, the long term impact of this on the region such as purchasing MBC amongst many other assets which we are not aware of as in the region there aren't too many publicly traded companies. The law does not require in SA to announce acquisitions, so its unclear what is happening. Only time will tell. However, these acts have been going on for thousands of years. Maybe Ritz is "new" but these types of government takeover, nationalizations, etc all have happened all the time in all of the countries by all and all and all. We Americans should be worried as the SA has gained a lot of influence - and we don't have any clue what it is.
Good article. Good start. Write more.
3
One thing for sure - the United States should take no action regarding this affair, since we abhor nations who meddle in the internal business of other nations.
3
Saudis – corrupt but not unprincipled.
Leafing through the history of the Middle East, we find that Saudi Arabia did not lead an attack against Israel since that nation was founded in 1948. There is evidence that the Saudis gave support to Israel’s enemies in the War of Independence in the late 40s and in the Yom Kippur War of 1973. Since the latter, the Saudis haven’t done much of anything against Israel.
We love that.
If the prince is selling the oil company, he is doing it to privatize a Saudi State asset.
This is the Trumpist wheelhouse. Doubtless Trump and his WH hordes will greet the Saudi Crown Prince with open arms and, possibly even that parade the Don was big on. Anything for the Saudis, especially if it can rip away their loyalty to the Bushes. Jared & Don are likely thinking of personally investing with the Crown Prince.
"Part of the campaign appears to be driven by a family feud, as Crown Prince Mohammed presses the children of King Abdullah, the monarch who died in 2015, to give back billions of dollars that they consider their inheritance, according to three associates of the Abdullah family."
"Corruption has long been endemic in Saudi Arabia, and many of the detainees were widely assumed to have stolen from state coffers. But the government, citing privacy laws, has refused to specify the charges against individuals and, even after they were released, to clarify who was found guilty or innocent, making it impossible to know how much the process was driven by personal score settling."
Tell me again about the 3 women who are taking driving lessons, showing the loveliness of the Kingdom...
3
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/23/opinion/saudi-prince-mbs-arab-spring....
November 23, 2017
Saudi Arabia’s Arab Spring, at Last
The crown prince has big plans to bring back a level of tolerance to his society.
By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN
RIYADH, Saudi Arabia — I never thought I’d live long enough to write this sentence: The most significant reform process underway anywhere in the Middle East today is in Saudi Arabia. Yes, you read that right. Though I came here at the start of Saudi winter, I found the country going through its own Arab Spring, Saudi style....
3
What about the role of the “foreign” mercenaries in arresting and torturing these people?
It’s good to expose the role of some western companies in expropriating private properties!
2
Corrupt family.
2
Hold on. MBS was lionized by Tom Friedman and others. He was going to let women drive! Award him a Nobel prize!
Meet the new thieving, corrupt autocrat. Same as the old thieving, corrupt autocrat. Except he is going to let women drive. Woohoo.
15
"Saudi prince Mohammed bin Salman 'buys £452m yacht' but slashes public spending"...and then uses coercion and abuse to stop corruption! haha!
3
No matter what Prince Alwaleed Bin Talal is saying in that interview, he is showing us, with the placement of the container bearing his earlier visage, that all is most definitely not well with him. That is a significant loss of weight.
6
Another strong man leader invoking an "anti corruption" campaign. See a pattern here?
2
On the other hand, luxury real estate sales remain brisk, SUV fuel is cheap, and Muslims are too busy warring with each other to attack the West.
Seems like Trump is getting what he wanted.
2
what is the difference begtween coercion of the Saudi King and our President - one for corruption of bilking money and the other for having sex with a porn star? Are you friend otherwise? Yes, as President Bush was insulted by a pair of show in Iraq we may be similarly insulted in Saudi Kingdom for similar events when people will be fed up with bothe governments.
1
We invaded the wrong country , should have taken Saudis land and wealth , instead of Iraq.
5
We have no right to take another country land and wealth, but we sure could stop supporting the Saudi despots.
1
How many “wallet bearers” will be accompanying the royal entourage? And those royal wallets will not be opened once while they’re here. Guaranteed not even once. War crimes committed by a primitive culture that got rich by luck only.
3
This sound similar to how Putin coerced various oligarchs to give him their wealth. Definitely a pattern that is being copied. Throw them in jail and offer to release them if they hand over the dough.
3
This is the nature of Saudi society.
4
Saudi Arabia seems to be the definition of a truly warped society, in any sense of the word.
3
The Saudis are gangsters, pure and simple. They leave the vast majority of their people poorly educated, poorly served and culturally encased in a vast, barren, religiously intolerant nation. It was his contempt for the Saudi royal family that set Osama bin Laden off on his radical mission attacking Western values. Saudi royalty, like European royalty in the 1800s, promotes gaudy consumption to dazzle peers and enforce their elite status with stunning indifference to the multitudes. MbS won't be able to save the system any more than did the reform efforts of Russia's Romanovs or France's Bourbons. Let us hope it does not become another cauldron of violent hate the way the Pahlevi's Iran did 40 years ago.
2
isn't what US does the same with most people uneducated with super expensive schools and healthcare at least they provide all that for free
1
One of the most strange details in this story:
“Most ended up in rooms whose glass shower doors and curtain rods had been removed to prevent suicide attempts.”
2
How we pick our "friends" in the middle east is beyond me. We know what we do for them as it has cost us billions through the years, but what do we get in return from Saudi Arabia and Israel?
Lies, contempt and corruption. I think we can get that for free, honestly.
2
Replace "Saudis" with "US law enforcement," and you've got the story of civil forfeiture, our own version of this corruption. You don't even need to change the numbers...
4
There is great irony in this situation. Theft is a punishable offense in Islam, and the Saudi government sees itself as the guardian of the religion. Now the question arises: Who is the thief? Who will judge? We are going to see big changes in Saudi Arabia in the near future. Stay tuned.
2
No one remembers that Saudis planned, financed and executed the attacks of 9/11/2001. No one remembers Osama bin Laden. Those honorary Saudis, the Bush family and their circle, made sure we'd forget by marching us off to (an illegal, unwarranted) war with a different country that had fictional WMDs. My fellow Americans can't seem to resist buying snake oil from con-men and it's killing us all.
9
Ask jared about this.He was up til the wee hours with said Saudi prince celebrating the prince's plans for his take over of the country.Jared for sure profited from this maneuver
2
This is the beginnings of a violent civil conflict in Saudi Arabia as the the ruling family tears itself apart. Mohammad bin Salman should never feel too safe. Revenge is always the remedy of those wronged.
3
This is a shakedown needed because the country is going broke. Price of oil is not high enough to maintain the welfare.
1
I recall Talal getting Murdoch to take the Muslim out of his glaring headlines around the time rioters were burning down Paris suburbs. So excuse me if I don't feel sorry for this man's duplicity. Fine for Murdoch to libel Persians, just not his family.
1
My heart bleeds for the plutocrats and kleptocrats getting abused by the autocrats. Can we borrow that Crown Prince to straighten up our robber barons in the US?
5
Mohammed bin Salman will most likely die of unknown causes as the result of an assassination. Every country in the Arab world dislikes the Saudis. Im sure descendants of King Abdullah will use this to their advantage when the timing is right.
Sounds like one group of mobsters working over another group of mobsters.
Medieval European kings pulled these kinds of stunts, but that was a few centuries ago. Looks as if Saudi Arabia just got stuck in the Middle Ages and never managed to find its way out.
2
King Faisal was a great king.
1
Haha Saudis corrupted; haha, well they are allies with the most corrupted nation in the world the USA where anyone can buy a president or senator with money such as NRA and pharmaceutical companies its basically open corruption disguised under 'lobbying; haha lobbying with money = corruption people get it already you live in the most corrupted nation in the world.
5
It's interesting that this was the first country Trump chose to visit as president.
They're also the country which 19 of the 20 9/11 terrorists were from, yet Saudi Arabia isn't on Trump's list of countries where people are barred from entering the United States.
But they do have a lot of money, don't they...
12
11sept is too murky to know exactly what occurred; too fishy; its too easy to believe that simple hijackers can do what they did (if they even did it)
It appears that the excuse of eradicating corruption was itself just another exercise of corruption in a power grab.
I can't be the only one concerned that the Trump administration is just too cozy with these various Arabian states: the Saudis and the UAE, all in an effort to turn on Qatar after they refused to help Jared Kushner deal with his over-leveraged property at 666 Fifth Avenue.
More and more the NYT is covering the intricate mesh of private business interests and foreign policy, pursued in so many "secret meetings" and promises of God knows what.
Corruption breeds corruption, whether inside the US or on the other side of the world.
10
Can anyone really believe that Saudi billionaires with deep familial ties to the ruling family willing gave up billions in assets at the request of the newly empowered young Saudi crown prince?
And can only believe that Mohammed bin Salman has a genuine interest in anti-corruption efforts after $450 million on a painting by Leonardo da Vinci, or the yacht Serene for 500 Euros? Where did MBS get more than a billion to spend on two luxury items that surely comprise a small amount of his wealth?
Whatever is going on in Saudi Arabia is not a new breath of democracy in a rising sea of authoritarianism around the world.
6
I've lived in the Gulf. A few points:
1. The idea of "liberalization" or "democracy" in Saudi Arabia is ridiculous. Be careful about what you wish for: Given the opportunity to vote, Muslims vote for Islamists. MSB is probably the best we can hope for.
2. While clearly trying to solidify his own base, MSB's long term goal is probably to establish Saudi Arabia as something like the neighboring UAE: outward looking and cosmopolitan, but still an authoritarian state, albeit one that also has a lot of legitimacy in the eyes of its people.
3. The idea that we should favor Iran instead of Saudi is grotesque. What Iran has sponsored in Iraq, Syria and Lebanon makes the Saudis in Yemen look like Boy Scouts. The idea of "bad" Saudi, "good/better" Iran is a product of a left wing that elevates US antagonists and turns a microscope on allies.
5
RE: "Corruption has long been endemic in Saudi Arabia, and many of the detainees were widely assumed to have stolen from state coffers."
If this was in fact an non-corrupt official anti-corruption campaign and not part of some shakedown why aren't these people tried in public and their ill gotten gains repatriated as part of their sentence or plea deal?
The only answer: the anti-corruption campaign itself is corrupt, possibly including seeking to hide the corruption of those running the anti-corruption campaign.
All such 'anti-corruption' actions serve only to change the destination of the pay-offs. China is not less-corrupt now, but the payments now to to Xi.
This is as it’s been for generations, a tribal society stuck in the early stages of cultural development where might makes right. Who ever is in charge makes the rules and reaps the profits, simple as that. It won’t be changing anytime in the foreseeable future, at least not until the oil runs out and they have nothing left but the sand beneath their feet.
1
I want to know when their water runs out.
2
Unfortunately, I have to side with the prince who locked up the oligarch businessmen in Saudi Arabia. Oligarchs in Russia, Saudi Arabia and the United States are trying to totally control their countries' governments with their vast economic resources. Citizens United has nullified whatever was left of the one-man-one-vote rule in America, and oligarchs in the US are no better than those in Saudi Arabia or Russia because they have one goal: Destroy the government in control and replace it with an oligarchy which will control the money and the power.
It's no coincidence that the Russian oligarchs are attempting to merge with US oligarchs because they sense that America's middle class has lost its economic power to participate in a government by, of and for the people. Putin knows when to strike: when our democracy is at most risk.
2
Meaningful change for Saudi citizens might include the right to drive a car or watch a movie in a theater. More importantly would be a separation of the state from religion, a free press, support for civil and human rights, and an end to nepotism.
1
Let's not be naive. If investment in Saudi Arabia makes more money for the 1%, they will do so regardless of corruption and human rights issues. There are events, such as DIck's and Walmart putting principles before $$$ that can make us hopeful, but we are rightfully cynical about halting investment in Saudi Arabia because of their disregard for human rights.
it sounds like thieves stealing from thieves. they've all stolen from their country to enrich themselves at hitherto unseen levels. so, the article mostly doesn't make sense. is one supposed to feel sorry for the first group of thieves, or condemn the theft by the second group of thieves?
the interesting thing here, i think, is the role of the Trumps. are they getting something from this? Kushner seems to spend quite a bit of time there, ostensibly doing middle east diplomacy. Trump has been there twice. given the Trumps' and Kushners' financial troubles and the suspect company they seem to keep, and the fact that they can't release their taxes, it could be that the Trumps are leveraging American support to enrich themselves while propping one group of thieves against the other.
Sounds like we have another Putin on our hands with the Prince. That’s exactly how he controls the Oligarchs and extorts money from them. That’s also exactly why Trump loves him. Enact a few populist items, spew propagandistic lies about transparency and due process, and steal billions while seizing power indefinitely. The 1% sure is doing well on a global basis these days.
3
These rich Saudis got their money through corruption. There's no income tax or corporate profits tax. Everyone knows that. If they have to pay a tithe to the government to make up for lost time then so be it.
1
Our intrepid man in the Middle East, Jared Kushner, did an all-nighter with MBS a few days before the arrests. These days, it is hard to tell which of the two was advising the other on how to use your position in the government to further your personal finances. Looks like MBS had the better plan, but then again, he didn’t need a security clearance to do it.
4
This mystery must be investigated. The reforms pursued by MBS should be backed by clear and transparent processes. In this case everything has happened behind the scenes leaving a big question mark on the real intentions of crown Prince. Also, this crackdown as already has been mentioned in article, has created an uncertain scenario which may largely keep foreign investors at bay from kingdom. The more interesting would be to see what comes out in future because the family feud might skyrocket in the aftermath of what happened at Ritz Carlton. In nutshell, the future of MBS may hang in a balance.
So what! The Saudis are friends to the Bushes, the Republicans,
and Big Oil - great allies. aren't they?
In hoc oleum adoremus (Latin for In oil we worship)!
8
There's nothing new about the Saudis using coercion against businessman in their country. According to Sampson (2005), a Canadian working in Saudi Arabia, he was imprisoned, beaten, tortured and sodomized by the Saudis in 2000.
Cite:
Sampson, William. Confessions of an Innocent Man : Torture and Survival in a Saudi Prison. McClelland & Stewart, Ltd, 2005. 419 pages. ISBN: 0-7710-7903-6
6
That’s true. It’s not new. But this report questions the future of investment in the Kingdom, since MBS is expected to visit the US soon, bringing promises for foreign investors.
Corruption in Saudi Arabia is this supposed to be breaking news.
5
We should be shunning Saudi Arabia. Bigly.
18
Perhaps the Saudi gazillionaires will now have less money to support terrorism in the West and the Wahhabi madrassas teaching hatred throughout the Muslim world.
16
And meanwhile, over on MSNBC, Andrea Mitchell commiserated with that telegenic Saudi royal gal who was telling us about all them wonderful reforms *n all, about that tiresomely inconvenient war in Yemen...
9
This is already old news.
The NYT better invest more on investigative journalism.
5
MBS is repeating what the founder of modern Egypt, Muhammad Ali, did 200 years ago. Mohamed Ali invited all his religiously-minded rivals, murdered them, confiscated their wealth, and founded a modern state... the remnants of which still exist today despite non-stop attacks by various Islamic factions.
On balance, Saudi Arabia has been a force for evil. MBS is attempting a 180-degree correction. Everyone modern secular person should wish him success. NYT has a pro-Islam bias so they do not like the correction. What is exactly new. NYT anti Saadam/Qaddafi/Mubarak/Asaad in favor of the Muslim Brotherhood et al. has given us millions of refugees and destruction of the middle east.
4
Why is this a surprise to anyone, including the New York Times...History's winners and losers.
1
Perhaps someone can share this article with Tom Friedman.
9
And what have we paid?
What have we in the US paid to the Saudi?
Did we give them boy George, in place of Al and his electric car, in the election in 2000 that Gore had won?
Did we forget to attack SA after 15 Saudi Sunni and some others, jetbombed the WTC?
Did we hand over to the Saudi the largest oil refinery in the US, Texaco of Texas, which is now operated as Saudi Motiva of Texas, with which the Saudi tripled priced a gallon of gas from 2001 forward for ten years, and double priced it there after, causing the longest running recession in US history.
What did we in the US pay to the Saudi?
And why are our "leaders" afraid to name it?
22
Oligarchs stealing from and abusing other oligarchs – cry me a river. The real story is that the USA, UK & Canada continue to arm these royal crooks as they carry out untold devastation on the Yemenis. Shame on Trump, May & Trudeau! And of of course we all know Sanders' proposed bill to stop arm sales for the Saudis' war effort is going nowhere.
23
Well then we CLEARLY aren't sending these people enough of our taxdollars and military support!! Those yachts and rare paintings ain't cheap!!!
11
Seems to me ABT is happy just to keep his coffee cup of himself! What a Trumpet.
1
And when did Salman pounce, putting all these people in jail? Right after our diplomat at large Jared Kushner took a last minute commercial flight to Saudi Arabia. Check out the dates. The crackdown was November 4, 2017 and Kushner arrived at the very end of October. At that point Jared had a top security clearance with access to all state secrets. He is close friends with the prince. Did he tattle on some people maybe
29
I too noticed the Jared connection back in November 2017. I am puzzled at why there’s been so little investigation into the trip by Jared. I don’t understand why the New York Times has not reported on this issue for five months. As a corrupt monarchy, the Saudi’s understand the importance of Family connections. I think it’s obvious that Jared signaled to the Saudis that the US government would not criticize the torture and imprisonment of their opponents. Reminds me of Vietnam and Chile, when the US government met with military officers and okayed the murder of elected leaders.
2
You want sycophantic ? How about the American media. Oh you know, little things, like the way network TV news anchors always refer to sweetness & light Saudi Arabia as "the Kingdom" while dastardly nearby Syria is always "the dictatorship". Heavens, we mustn't portray the Saudis in a negative light must we, if we Americans are to continue loving our gasoline at less than $3 a gallon.
19
They are our best buddies because we sell the Saudis a lot of weapons. They are business partners in The Carlyle Group (google them!) The 9/11 hijackers were mostly Saudis. The disaster that is Yemen is due to the Saudis and our support of them. Here we have tribes attacking each other - not a new story. These people are not our friends..we should figure out to export something other than war stuff.
34
I don't think a court in any Western country would uphold a contract made under duress. Maybe MBS can coerce the detainees to give up Saudi assets, but foreign assets may be much harder. What MBS should have done was impose a tax on the assets. Also, once the MBS side of the family is deposed (they always are), a precedent is set for their treatment.
4
There is much criticism: for MBS confiscating the assets of the rest of the Saudi family's idle rich; for Saudi's prosecuting the war in Yemen, where the "collateral damage" of innocent but dead Yemenis far exceeds the number of fatalities among Iran-backed Houthi rebels; for inequity between Saudi's rich and poor so glaring that it makes Trump's USA seem like an egalitarian place.
The Saudi royals realize that neither their oil income nor their hold on power will last forever, and are thus stocking up on cash to be hidden all over the world.
Although some criticize the US for selling the Saudis the weapons they are using to bomb Yemeni civilians, and even call for a halt to US sales, I've no one connect two other dots: It is the money that MBS is confiscating from the rest of Saudi's rich that will help pay for American armaments and thus allow them to continue the war in Yemen.
The death knell for the corrupt Saudi monarchy will not be the cessation of any foreign relations or arms sales, but the widespread proliferation of photovoltaic cells.
4
It is hard to muster much sympathy for people whom are widely acknowledged to have embezzled billions of dollars of assets from the state. Of course the move is undemocratic and oppressive, but given the revolutionary changes the Crown Prince needs to make to address existential threats, transference back to the state does have a valid argument. The Saudis have unemployment with a young population, civic unrest, economic and climate problems looming, and regional military threats to confront.
Prince Mohammed is at least trying to address them, which takes reform, which in turn takes money. As far as investors are concerned, while asset forfeiture is disturbing, the reduction of corruption and increased social stability through reform should act as a counterweight.
3
Just think how wonderfully the Saudi government would treat American investors who buy shares of Aramco, that is until they grow tired of the stock market, and declare the traded shares null and void.
Good luck suing the Saudi government.
11
I tell folks that I am old enough to have witnessed end of communism as we knew it.
Yet, I think I am young enough that I will witness end of these sheikhs in Arabia including this kingdom of Saudis.
It's a concept that is totally at odds with today's world. And they themselves seem to recognize it with giving more rights to women.
Similar to Gorbachev's perestroika which sowed the seeds of end of communism.
Something similar here.
Add to that this arbitrary arrests of so called princes and rich folks.
Sooner or later, one of them is bound to get out.
And that will be the start of a movement to overthrow this House of Sauds.
It's not too distant - it's coming.
And I just hope our leaders have prepared themselves to deal with its fall out.
We are living in interesting times.
4
And this is the government that the US has put at the center of their Middle East strategy? I'm afraid we're building on sand. The country is built on a partnership with extremely conservative Sunnis who also seem to be a major funder of violent Salafist movements and funders of unhelpful Salafist leaning mosques and schools throughout the world. They are a petro-state. Much of their native population thinks they are owed a sinecure working for the government, Their economy would collapse without a massive number of foreigners. They are obsessed with their centuries-old struggle with the Shia.
And this is the country the Kushner and Trump seem to be depending on to stabilize the Middle East?
4
Does our president have a plan B for Saudi Arabia? They are after all still the world's largest oil exporter and we do not want a large spike in the oil price.
1
Donald Trump, Wilbur Ross and Rex Tillerson were last seen smiling and sword dancing and orb-rubbing with the macho male misogynist autocratic Sunni Muslim Wahabbi Arab extremist fossil fuel royal House of Saud.
The Saudis certainly knew and honored Trump and Ross for having three wives between them and counting while being businessman. While Tillerson has had only one wife he has been in the oil business. Too bad thrice married Secretary of Treasury businessman Steve Mnuchin could not have been there. Nine wives is pretty impressive.
That Saudi Arabia is ruled by a barbarian Middle Age era organized crime family is not surprising. Nor is Saudi Arabia's diplomatic and military alliance with America extraordinary. The Saudi royals fighting for prominence is also typical. Having the option of prison instead of beheading is really shocking.
3
The crack down was NOT ABOUT corruption. It WAS corruption.
8
It's actually monarchy, but that's another time's story.
Yeah . . . having a really hard time caring that the Saudis are eating their own. Their world would have been very different if they didn't happen to randomly sit on a big puddle of oil. They haven't handled it very well, overall.
3
I don’t understand why people are surprised. These are the same guys who secretly funded terrorism the world over and were responsible for the attack on the WTC resulting in the death of over 3,000 Americans and we are still surprised? Saudi Arabia owns about 10% of the US economy so as long as they own that, they can do whatever they want. If you have a doubt, every American President from the 60s till now has feted and celebrated them. So don’t blame Trump. The US and the G7 have given them the power to say and do whatever they want to do. If you have any doubts, ask Yemen.
7
there is no proof that they support terrorism unless its with USA approval; they do everything as the US orders.
1
Wonderful! Now all the funding for AQ and ISIS has to come from the palace{with US oversight, of course}. Turning these groups against Iran, rather than US 'interests'. Same as when we funded these groups to fight Russia, right?
Clearly AQ and ISIS have no reluctance to kill Iranians as demonstrated with their Shiite mosque bombings throughout the Mideast.
Mr. Trump is an admirer of the Saudis. This could be why. Trump dreams.
Money on this scale is power, not just something to live on.
The King hung immensely powerful people by the heels, and tortured them. That was not only coercion, that was motivation. Then he let them live, and keep some of that power, to act on their undoubted motives.
Big money power will be coming for that King. The young fool has made as many enemies as he possibly could. They'll get him. It is likely sooner than later.
Don't get too invested in this guy. He is not long for the world of the Middle East. If he lives, it will be on the run to London or Switzerland.
6
Illuminating article by all; it seems to be a horrible state, but Saudi Arabia's governmental structure, such as it is, admits such a crackdown. The U.S. has no fear of that because Republicans are in the process of integrating corporate corruption into the federal government; business leaders here have no fear of prosecution if they toe the government's line.
It must be tough in those families:
"According to one relative and two associates of the Abdullah family, his children are allowed to withdraw $26,000 per week each from their accounts to cover their expenses."
But seriously, this crackdown shows the problem of not having a rational government of checks and balances with a mature judicial foundation. But given that the Saudi government allowed King Abdullah's family to amass that wealth, purportedly corruptly, what would be the mechanism to address the corruption?
This situation is so severe, I don't know how businesses here could establish a stable relationship with entities in Saudi Arabia, but they could always look the other way, the way PWC and Clifford Chance have done. And our fascist government would have no difficulty in building business relations with them.
And worse, the lack of transparency in the Saudi crackdown leads to no stable solution. The future is anybody's guess. Chances are that it'll lead to the same kind of government.
6
Why are the Saudi Princes etc. receiving hundreds of millions of dollars in inheritance? All the oil revenues of Saudi Arabia are a public asset. Those monies belong to the Saudi People and not in the personal accounts of these thousands of princess and princesses.
We are complicit in the coercion and abuse as all these monies are on deposit in our banks. The Treasury Department needs to ensure that any ill gotten gains, or monies whose provenance cannot be ascertained to be legally earned, should not be allowed as deposit in our banks and any western bank that holds such monies should face sanctions for charges such as money laundering.
We in the west MUST UNDERSTAND what is ISLAM and how it operates. In Islam, there is no such thing as establishing someone as a KING. After the prophet we had Khalifas who were chosen (elected in our modern terms) and each and every one of them was accountable to the people. Here we have a long list of persons who have amassed billions and trillions in personal accounts with no accountability to the people of Saudi Arabia who are the legitimate owners of that wealth. Furthermore to add insult to injury, no one in Saudi Arabia or other "monarchies" in the Arab countries is even allowed to talk about the "royal" families and to say anything derogatory means to get your head cut off.
We are in a conspiracy with them. We, that is our government, must see things clearly and put an end to this.
8
Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman is right, this is the right moment to visit the US for business. He would be in perfect tune with Trump's view about the (ab)use of power to satisfy their greed.
4
Can we please drill like crazy so that we can finally put these crooks out of business?
4
One has to feel sorry for the progeny of this gang of pirates. For years the Saudi elite helped run a noxious cartel. OPEC, which set oil prices at unrealistically high prices and, in effect, stole money from the rest of the world. MBS is right in a sense: his family and other Saudi elites obtained their wealth illegally from looting the national treasury in some way or another, but that national treasury was filled with stolen money to begin with. This is like one Mafia family obtaining ascendency over its rivals.
And by the way, as these people were ascending their mountain of wealth, many seeded the export of radical Islam and funded terrorism. A pox on all of them!
8
THE MIDEAST IS RENOWNED FOR Its dedication to the Zero Sum Game. And Mohammed bin Salman is playing a very hard version of the Zero Sum Game. There's a story of the serpent and the scorpion. The scorpion begs the serpent to carry him across the river, who says, No you'll sting me. The scorpion promises not to sting; but becomes impatient and outraged. So he stings the serpent who says, with his dying breath, Why did you sting me? Now we'll both die. The scorpion responded, I stung you because this is the Middle East.
2
At least the new guy in charge is going to give women more freedom. Otherwise I could care less what goes on there. Monarchies are a complete joke in this day and age. Rich trust fund kids stealing from other rich trust fund kids. That god we have energy independence today and are no longer dependent on this crazy part of the world for that.
3
Time to shift our focus towards Iran. They are corrupt, also, but at least they don't support ISIS and Al Qaeda.
4
We have known for decades who was behind the attack on 9/11. However the president who wants to be a dictator has embraced them as he usual does with . .
dictators. There is no surprise here. Trump suffers from a disease that people who hate this country have.
6
Obviously none of this is surprising in an absolute monarchy with insanely backward values. A rational world would boycott all things Saudi until they can demonstrate some semblance of a rational government.
3
I pretty generally empathize with people undergoing hardships, but in the case of billionaires of any extraction, I'm prepared to make an exception. While there are ultra-rich people who I think do actually work for the betterment of humanity (Gates and Buffet come to mind), as a class they're both corrupt and corrupting, and pestilential enough to make Biblical plagues look quaint.
To paraphrase the old lawyer joke, "What do you call 10,000 billionaires on the bottom of the ocean?" Answer: "A good start." And so to MBS: good start, dude, keep up the good work, and I won't shed any tears.... but may your own denouement not be too long delayed.
5
All mega money is evil. Especially oil money.
Anyone who has too much of it or amounts that could not be spent in 1000 lifetimes is sickening and psychopathic in nature, 'money hoarders'.
Also, big fortunes are always made off of the blood, sweat and tears of others.
6
I believe Saudi Arabia has lived too long in the past and now has a version of future that is not aligned with the world view. When the price of oil was high, Saudi was just wasting wealth and destabilising the region with some of its activities. There was no forward vision or outlook and most of the steps it has taken since are only biting it back.
The Prince who is now taking a lot of steps like women driving is only making it worse. He is confusing real change with publicity and media coverage. Almost all of his actions have caused consternation and with every new step he is taking his credibility down along with his country. The war in Yemen has such great cost and Saudi is not winning anyone's hearts with that. Instead it is going deeper into its sinkhole.
It is not clear why any genuine investor would go for Saudi after this dictatorial action of coercion and kidnapping? Why would anyone invest here when they have Dubai or Oman, or even Qatar which are far more progressive and don't have any kind of destabilising influence?
I hope the US takes note of the European approach which is quite principled and demonstrating leadership. Hold Saudi accountable and seek to mend its ways in a principled and democratic manner. But alas, there is another problem there with US going alone and not using its influence in any constructive manner.
5
No Dissent and absolute silence are the foundations of autocratic rule. I am not surprised by this power grab. This prince is young and is seeking a solid foothold that hopes to stay in place for decades. Make no mistake: there is no liberalization happening in the Saudi Arabia. These attempts are meant to appease the masses and prevent civil unrest. I've worked with many young Saudis who expressed in private the hope for western style liberalization but understand that whoever is in power will do what it takes to maintain that power. This prince is no different than his predecessors.
128
There are very, very few Muslims who support the kind of open societies in their own countries that we have in the West.
3
What do you expect in a country like that?
It's not corruption if there is no legal system. The rulers do whatever they want, and then a stronger ruler comes along.
4
Well a new broom sweeps clean except that the guy holding the broom is just as corrupt as his victims. As Lord Acton wrote, "Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely."
15
Who knows and who cares honestly. The biggest issues re: Saudi Arabia are its exports of oil and radical Islamic teachings aka Wahhabism.
Which billionaire stole whose spare five hundred million in couch cushion change isn’t really of interest until those two issues are resolved.
13
“Meet the new boss,
same as the old boss.”
The Who
Won’t Get Fooled Again
8
"During months of captivity, many were subject to coercion and physical abuse, witnesses said."
Let me translate this from NYtimes to english. They were tortured.
89
"...hundreds of influential businessmen... many of them members of the royal family... [are locked up] in the Riyadh Ritz-Carlton.."
"Influential businessmen" is dubious. Why not "cronies of corporate petroleum," "super rich by pure luck," or "relatives of the newest 'Prince' who is playing by modern medievalism..."
Both NYT and USA worship the rich, with rankings: Majority Shareholder, CEO, CFO... "Influential Businessman..." Rich Sons who took over the Father's Business..."
14
Oh, really? This was a shady, secretive, extra-legal process?
And we have slavering columnists like Thomas Friedman, granted an interview with this "Prince of the Future" who predictably proceeds to gush about how this is the guy who will reform Saudi Arabia after all.
Yah, and the current leader of China is closet liberal who will transform his country into a true democracy.
26
This is brave and distinguished reporting.
9
oh please! thieves stealing from thieves, and one of the thieves is about to visit the US to cement his theft.
this sounds like a high school paper.
2
This is as corrupt as our government under Citizens United.
15
The Saudi regime presents yet another reason to get an electric (no fossil fuels) car.
21
Crown prince Salman paid $450 million for a painting
by Leonardo da Vinchi, paid $300 million for a villa
in France and spending millions on renovation and
spent $400 million for a luxury yacht. It adds up to more
than $1Billion. where did he get Billion dollars to splurge.
Does it come from his pocket money given by daddy?
19
Kinda doesn't sound a whole lot different than local police forces in the US abusing civil forfeiture. At least it seems the Saudis targeted the rich.
15
They also target the mass of foreign workers doing all the labor in Saudi Arabia. Did you think those princes actually build houses and roads and cook for themselves.
Also it's tragic but often women who are abused and made to feel inferior by the prevailing division of power will in turn abuse their female household staff....
1
Why would you expect pre enlightenment cultures to have post enlightenment values? Wall them off and wait for them to parch or change.
4
I'll make it certain to never buy a used car over there.
2
Don’t tell me, let me guess.
Our government doesn’t care,
never did care
and never will care.
These are the ABC’s of the American system. If you’re in the club, you’re in the club for good…or bad.
3
As others have said before, it is hard to shed tears for any of these people. Equally well, it's hard to imagine why anyone would view Saudi as a safe place to invest. But I am sure there will be the usual bunch of vultures and opportunists who will... And I won't be shedding any tears for them either when they get fleeced.
7
The US and the world would be better served by opening a dialogue and working with Iran, rather than Saudi Arabia.
100
The sins of the fathers... the dirty deals made since the fall of the Ottoman empire have enriched and empowered the oil oligarchy, enabled the rise of theocratic radicalism, oppressed any flowering of Arab democracies and now threatens to blow up in the worlds face. But hey, we got cheap gas for a long time!
8
"According to one relative and two associates of the Abdullah family, his children are allowed to withdraw $26,000 per week each from their accounts to cover their expenses."
Of all the distressing examples of human suffering and abuse going on in the world, this story seems more absurd than alarming. Filthy rich Saudi royals and tycoons take turns arresting and harassing one another as they squabble over millions, perhaps billions.
And the children, the poor children, forced to exist on a pittance. The horror, the horror......
241
Just a footnote: Our own President Trump was also forced into a starvation diet, he by his bankers after one too many of his surefire properties went belly up and they were left holding the mortgages. They made him live on a meager $450,000 a month, despite the vocal protestations it would certainly be impossible. It's amazing what the wealthy can be made to bear if forced to.
3
It sounds like these princes (and princesses) really did loot the country for billions of dollars. The fact that the country was already corrupt really doesn’t justify it. Allowing them $26,000/week is absurd. Yes I understand that it would be better if this process was more transparent but does anybody think that any of these people *didn’t* take billions of dollars each from “the nation” (ie: everyone else)?
It's more than a side note that Mr. Mohammed bin Salman has almost certainly ordered the indiscriminate bombing of parts of Yemen not under Saudi control, in particular of civilians, aid workers and hospitals. Kidnapping and extortion are relatively minor crimes; he is probably guilty of both war crimes and crimes against humanity. Of course he gets along really well with the Trumps and the Kushners.
Dan Kravitz
22
It's not just the Trumps and Kushners who Mr. MbinSalman gets along well with: There are countless white Republican Congressmen who have made their fortunes by supporting domestic commercial bullies and their PACS, and/or foreign despots, and filling their pockets with dirty money for their personal households or re-elections. Our government should likewise confiscate these ill-gotten gains and we have the RICO laws to help. These laws will allow us to deal with our dirty-handed
Congress in a way similar to how the MOB was broken: Legally reveal the conspiracies and take the money and possessions from our congressional conspirators.
3
Arabian nights are long and dangerous. There has been no victories in the dessert sands, neither Rommel nor Montgomery could conquer the desserts.
1
Bin Salman can modernize Saudi Ariabia all he wants and he can fight corruption all he wants but if he does not act according to Saudi laws he is no better than the corrupt citizens he is trying to stop. He appears to be trying to take total control of SA while loosening a few restrictions (like letting women drive) to divert attention from his tyrannical behavior.
4
Thank you so much for this text. Learnt a lot!
Makes Iran look like a liberal democracy by comparison.
15
If, for one moment we overlook the human rights abuses and legal abuses the Saudi government is commiting in the name of transparency, a question every informed American should ask when reading this article is this: why did the Saudi government not pursue those responsible for 9/11 with the same zeal and willpower that they are pursuing these economic figures?
The Saudis are not our friends- and since oil is showing zero signs of every truly stabalizing above $60 in the near term, we shall see more evidence of corruption and strongman tactics by the Saudi government to silence dissent as formerly generous social welfare programs dry up.
8
The "generous social welfare programs" are for Saudi citizens, not for the foreign workers recruited to do all the work (from building houses, to roads, to being servants in Saudi households, etc)
The press coverage for this crown prince astonishes me. This man seized power in a coup, has disappeared dozens of powerful citizens who presumably might otherwise oppose him, has stolen billions of dollars worth of private property, and god knows what else he's done.
But because he made the press-savvy move of allowing women to drive again, the west is giving him a free pass.
He's seemingly operated completely outside of the law - certainly any notion of rule of law - and gives every indication of authoritarianism. Yet the language used to cover this situation is incredibly mild, even ambiguous. What is going on here?
6
I am having a hard time feeling sympathy for the poor kids only allowed to withdraw $26,000 per week for their expenses, and an even harder time understanding why the U.S. and Saudi Arabia are allies.
20
I would not invest a dime in Saudi Arabia , firstly it is totally corrupt, secondly autocratic, thirdly it is responsible for the deaths of thousands Of Americans and the wars that followed.
It is also clear that a Sunni /Shia war is brewing .
Our best bet is to totally disengage from this part of the world and focus on energy independence including optimization of renewable energy .
10
Interesting that these guys seem to be flocking to the Trump administration with the idea of covering themselves with some shred of credibility. Of course, Trump meanwhile continues to alternately admire and be bamboozled by them world-wide. Shameful that a US president has freely given up leadership of Democracy efforts around the world. Republicans should be ashamed of themselves for continuing to support this administration that does NOTHING to stand against tyranny.
10
When Trump praises a country, or its leader, one would suspect, such a country, or its leader could be corrupt. I believe, this is something that Democrats ,Republicans, and independents agree on.
8
Think it can't happen here? Think again.
There should be laws against people getting this rich. Oh, I don't care about the Saudis - I'm talking about the United States. It's time to reign in these oligarchs and pluto and kleptocrats. Our founding fathers made a very large mistake in not putting into place checks and balances against unrestrained wealth - mainly because they considered themselves entitled to their own gains, ill-gotten or no.
Modern day corruption is spreading in a very real way to our country. Trump rubs elbows with those he envies and idolizes. Think Trump would love nothing more than to lock Bloomberg up in Trump Tower and sieze his family's money under guise of an anti-corruption investigation?
26
Oh, I'm rather taken by the idea of abusing billionaires and seizing their money. I mean, wouldn't it be entertaining to see somebody rough up Jeff Bezos and take his billions away from him? I mean, Jeff Sessions says civil asset forfeiture is A-OK now, right? "Take back ill-gotten gains," he says. I say "Go for it!"
2
It’s hard to take bin Salman’s role as a reformer, or his purge of corruption, seriously when in the last year alone he paid $425 million for a da Vinci painting, sent an emissary to immediately purchase a yacht he like the look of for $550 million and purchased a chateau for $300 million.
I have traveled in both Saudi Arabia and Iran. The Wahhabism that gave us 17 of the 911 hijackers continues to be a force in Saudi political and cultural life. In Iran, despite the machinations of its brutal and corrupt government, there is far greater tolerance for the West and Americans in particular. And there are serious challenges to the government from the Iranian people. In Saudi Arabia one wonders—should the House of Saud fall— would an even more regressive regime take hold?
Just as Trump has completely ignored the attacks Putin has orchestrated against the American people and just as he ignores the threat Putin poses to the U.S. and western ideals, so too is he ignoring the security of Americans by a full-throated embrace of Saudi Arabia and an all out push to dismantle the Iran nuclear deal negotiated by the Obama administration. The collapse of the nuclear deal would strengthen hard-liners in Iran end ensure the enmity of the Iranian people against the U.S. as a war with Isreal and or the U.S. would almost certainly follow.
With so much at stake, suggestions that Trump’s business and personal interests are driving U.S. policies are truly terrifying.
15
The Crown Prince may be pulling a "Putin" whereby he is seizing as much money as he can for himself using threats. The equivalent of a Saudi "oligarch" class ruling the kingdom with the Crown Prince now the Putin of SA.
Throw in some social reforms, female drivers and movies, and the general populace is soothed into submission.
Greedy American businesses now given the green light by Trump and the GOP will care little for the 'details' of the Crown Princes' grab for power. There's money for the taking and American CEO's will be glad to help. That is after Trump and Jarvanka get their share first. Lack of transparency reigns at the Oval Office too.
5
It was worth mentioning that Kushner met with bin Salman just before the crackdown. Was this really a crackdown on corruption? Or just a consolidation of power to benefit bin Salman with some quid pro quo to Team Trump for their complicity?
22
Just another example showing Saudi Arabia to be a non democratic country ruled by autocrats fighting among themselves for control of its people and resources. The rulers through the use of their wealth have bought the alliance of the USA. Not a place to visit nor invest in since there is no rule of law. The rules are what the current person in power wants them to be.
6
Wide spread corruption at the highest levels of the Saudi government?
mmmm...Now, why is it that it reminds me of the current W.H.? Any ideas?
32
Hey these are our pals ...
12
first Russian oligarchs, then Saudi princess.
next they'll be coming for our guns.
7
Let me cut right to the chase. I anxiously await Tom Friedman's next column. And he better tackle the facts presented in this article. How does a 5 p.m. deadline sound, NYT?
10
I stumbled on to an advance copy: it says "an epic struggle is underway with many repercussions, we will know more in three to six months (1-2 Friedman Time Units)."
2
Corruptions in Saudi is a well known fact. There is nothing new or interesting to write about it. But the fact to attract Saudi's attention is that Chinese president Xi did a remarkable job using anti-corruption tactics to strengthen the country and also consolidate his presidency further. This is the current Saudi ruler likes to know and do. Thefts in Abdullah Foundation is just the last straw that pushed the Crown Prince Mohammed with the blessing of his father to do this unprecedented thing. Nothing much but a family feud.
3
Trumps second tier best friends, of course. Many of us will never forgive and forget 9/11. Apparently, the Presidential Apprentice is either extremely forgiving, or only cares about Money, especially for his Brand.
I'd bet on the Money angle. Seriously.
37
Yeah. Remember when Obama broke off diplomatic relations with Saudi Arabia? Right after he stopped selling them weapons of war?
No? Me either.
1
Are we supposed to feel sorry for people who stole hundreds of billions of dollars because they were imprisoned for a month or two in a 5 star hotel with room service and TV access, and then were allowed to keep some of their ill-gotten gains?
You may disagree with the crown prince on his policies or reasons for cracking down on corruption, but please do not portray these people as innocent billionaires. It was almost impossible for someone to become a billionaire in Saudi without a "backer" or some government connection.
16
Of course that statement could go for His Honorable Royal Highness too...but what do I know. Saudi Arabia has more princes and princesses than a day's output of a Coca-Cola factory! Are they worthless? The true question is: Who's oil is it? His? Theirs? The People's? Only a wise and benevalent ruler will solve that one amicably. The unwise will be forgotten.
3
Saudi Arabia gave over $10 million to the Clinton Foundation while Hillary was Secretary of State. Is it any surprise they escaped any criticism during Obama's administration?
13
No one has criticized the Saudis in decades; both sides bow to the oil
1
You sure about that? I recall plenty of criticism of Saudi Arabia during the Obama administration. I also don't see any criticism nowadays. The Russians obviously have plenty on Trump, because h's silent as the grave about them- not his usual behavior, to say the least. I wonder what the Saudis have on Trump.
Corrupt despots like to hang out with other corrupt despots, so I'm sure the Crown Prince will get a warm welcome from Trump et al. The entire charade is disgusting. The Crown Prince's behavior and programs have nothing to do with eliminating corruption. They have everything to do with consolidating power and eliminating his enemies. No doubt he has quite a few of them- he certainly deserves it.
As to not feeling sorry for those imprisoned by the Crown Prince, how about the man who had no wealth of his own and ended up dead, with his neck broken? Can you spare a little pity for him?
5
You forgot to mention both Bush adminstrations. Btw remember 9/11?
1
So the "anti-corruption" purge was nothing more than a big ripoff by MBS to finance his yachts and French chateaux. And Trump is supporting this goon?
10
Every nation has its way of life.Ways that may seem strange to some.
In the US the corrupt are charged by prosecutors & produced before court & most get acquitted.This is the norm rather than the exception,whether it's in the rape of a Yale student or of a tricky hedge fund King,what we see is the ring side view of high powered lawyers making a mockery of law & wasting public time & money.
The futility & fatality is written all over the legal spread sheet.
Not so in Saudi Arabia,
This is the most innovative style of persuading a few thieves in suits to part with their ill gotten funds needs to be emulated by all nations.Its a true blue blooded Princely,style of getting back the people's money without needless litigation & waste of time & money.
Added to which its done in style at the Ritz Carlton.
Already Harvard School of Management is lapping up the finer aspect of this innovative money squeeze technique for the coming season of Management whiz kids.
Times are changing,NYT.The losers,Lawyers.
7
That works during round one. During round two everyone is used to having no court system and then, in shock, the people realize, too late, that they gave up their freedom.
2
The money was not given "back" to the people. It was taken by the other thieves who are now in power. Please read the article and get a few facts about Saudi Arabia and the absolute power of its rulers.
Whether you're tortured in the Ritz Carlton or in a dank basement doesn't make a difference -- particularly if you're tortured to death. Why do you think that the glass doors of showers and the curtain cords were taken away? Why did they suspect the prisoners would try to commit suicide? It is because a quick death is preferable over the agony and the possible slow death through torture. So the torture was premeditated.
I am not diminishing the corruption of the victims but neither am I, as you do, diminishing the corruption of their torturers. It's a mistake to think in terms of "either/or". There is always a third path, or a fourth or more... No need to be forced to chose between 2 corrupt and cruel despots behaving within the same corrupt and cruel regime (just ask any of the foreign workers recruited, often under false pretenses, to do all the heavy work, including that of domestic. (Perhaps you didn't give a thought to domestic workers -- perhaps you take your maid for granted?)
Trump, Putin, Prince Salman -- dare I say the new "Axis of Evil"
15
No. They're not evil. They're just alternative.
1
.... and why did it take this paper months to re-cast its coverage of this purge? Other international outlets were much more critical in their coverage.
Americans suffer from myopic coverage of foreign affairs and the NYTimes, which still shoulders blame for beating the war drum in 2002-03, has a lot to learn about its role in shaping American opinions. If I want light reading I'll find the comics section.
9
I see more clearly now why President George W. Bush was so obsequious with the Saudi King as exemplified in that infamous photo of the two holding hands in Midland, Texas.
Soon, we'll be seeing a picture of Donald Trump doing the same with Vladimir Putin.
8
Men from the middle East often hold hands.
It's not that unusual and does not denote any particular or especially close relationship. Those in the US for a longer period of time may simply stand very close instead of holding hands during a discussion.
I eagerly await Tom Friedman's analysis of all of this. At the same time I marvel at the friendly partnership struck up between Jerad Kushner and Mohammed bin Salman, which, with Donald Trump's backing, seems to have served as a go-ahead signal for the Saudi "anti-corruption reform," which has so benefitted one side in a classical, medieval type of palace intrigue, made modern only by the use of modernized techniques of torture, spying, and official theft, and the mass distribution of official disinformation.
The Trump administration certainly knows how to pick its friends and those it most admires: Putin, Xi, Duterte, Erdogan, MbS--and you think Trump was "joking" when he praised Xi for making himself "president for life" and suggesting, he, Trump, ought to do likewise?
19
This will make the Saudi government heros in Trump's eyes. Time to sell them some more fighter jets.
6
This is a sneak preview of what DJT would like to do to us. Pay attention.
16
Every summer we spend time in Cannes, France. There is a line of super cars, Buggati, Lamborghini, Ferraris etc. lined up outside the most luxurious hotels. All with Arabic tags. All driven by young "princes" who have never done a days work in their lives but belong to the lucky sperm club.
Want to sell anything to a major corporation, military or government in these countries? Then make sure you include the "baksheesh" that will surely be demanded.
In a similar way officer positions in the military are not earned by skill but bought by a bribe to the right general.
No wonder their military are such a shambles.
5
The list is long of youngens who only got somewhere because Mommy and Daddy paved the way, also in the west. But the "baksheesh" you are talking about...there are quite a few countries/systems in this world just like that. Some of them you can't even get a postage stamp into the country with out a "baksheesh". I know you know this. As far as the military goes, do you really want them to have a fuctioning military in the first place? Think about that.
4
It's appalling that this prince operates outside any recognizable rule of law. Even if these people did things that were wrong, it's apparent that there is no real system of justice in S.A. Torturing people to bilk them of money is sick, no matter how you view it. And it's equally sickening that Trump snuggles up to S.A.
5
If these are not clear signs of a dictator/dictatorship in the making, I don't know what is. Unluckily for the US, it still depends on Arab oil and, worse, its president and the president's son in law befriend and love this type of leaders. Salman and his investments will probably be welcomed in the US, and then the country will have to put up with his gangster style tactics. One more thing to worry about.
3
Is this the same Crown Prince who just had "secret talks" with Jared Kushner "til the wee hours of the morning" (excluding our Secretary of State, Rex Tillerson).
Now the Prince is coming to America to talk about investing?
How convenient that Jared's 666 building just happens to need an infusion of cash!
1
Freedom from arab oil dependence was blocked repeatedly by the Obama administration. Such independence may yet happen under Trump.
2
Shady gangsters robbing shady gangsters. Obscene amounts of money that fuel their decadence while the regular folk are controlled by religion. The country is run by expats. If C.P. Mohammed filters a fraction of the seized money down to the general populace and not to terrorism and the war in Yemen I'll give him a point. Otherwise, I couldn't care less about any of the thieves on either side of this clampdown. The Ritz Carlton as a prison-what a joke! As for the general who died, well, I guess they can display the picture of his battered body alongside those of beaten and dead prisoners on the wall of the security stop at the hospital I worked at in Jeddah visible to any who stepped inside.
7
Saudi Arabia is a feudal monarchy circa 500 AD, which operates on the following business model: the people in charge do exactly as they please. Armed with the full coercive power of the state, they imprison, exile or kill anyone foolish enough to challenge them.
Any questions?
15
This was nothing short of a huge grab for power and money.
Typical middle-east politics - stuck in medieval horror.
4
Wow! Looks like someone pulled the sheet off the Saudi corpse. The royal family has been feeding at the oil trough for generations and, considering the evident fecundity of it, I suppose a "Come to Allah" moment was inevitable, as all those princes jostled each other for a place at that trough. The corruption inside the house of Saud is beyond description.
The flow of unlimited cash that the oil patch cow provides all those royal dudes has slowed down a bit while the number of "princes" (from both families) needing money has risen over the years. Meanwhile the actual po' folks on the peninsula, watching these characters ride around in their Bugattis and Ferraris, are getting really restless, I would suppose.
Enter Iran and Russia.
7
Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman al Saud is already the de facto King of Saudi Arabia. The fact that recently he spent millions of dollars on a luxury motor yacht, in a whim, and spent millions of dollars on very expensive real estate in France and on a very expensive painting, strongly suggests that the riches he has taken from his relatives will not be used for the benefit of the population. He has never shown any empathy for ‘common’ people. As the continuing human tragedy in Yemen illustrates.
Robbing many of his relatives, especially of a competing branch of the family, of their riches and their power, is meant in the first place to cement his own position of power and to incapacitate any would-be competitors for the throne.
It remains to be seen if he will indeed introduce actual democracy in Saudi government.
6
Why is this even news. Alert the press .. Saudi Arabia is a KINGDOM. Without any question, all of the people that had money "stolen" from them undoubtedly stole it in the first place. Like it or not, deal with them or not, but it is there ball park and they get to play by their rules.
7
On Nov 23, the NYT printed a lengthy opinion piece written by columnist Thomas Friedman. Entitled “Saudi Arabia’s Arab Spring, at Last”, it was an encomium lavishing praise on the 32-year-old Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman (or as Friedman referred to him “M.B.S.”) for his ‘top down’ revolution challenging Islamic radicalism and Saudi corruption. “M.B.S.,” Friedman wrote, “is on a mission to bring Saudi Islam back to the center.” A few weeks earlier, the Saudi regime detained Lebanon’s prime minister, Saad Hariri, during a state visit and compelled him to make a videotaped appearance in which he publicly resigned from his post and repudiated Iranian intervention in Lebanon. Friedman wrote that, “M.B.S. would not discuss the strange goings on with Prime Minister Saad Hariri,” and accepted the Saudi explanation that “Hariri, a Sunni Muslim, is not going to continue providing political cover for a Lebanese government that is essentially controlled by the Lebanese Shiite Hezbollah militia…essentially controlled by Tehran.”
In light of the article today, Friedman owes his readers an explanation of his promotion of the Saudi Arabia’s new autocratic face. “M.B.S.” is consolidating power internally by coup and externally by a reckless foreign policy toward regional rival Iran, a blockade of Qatar and escalation of a genocidal campaign in neighbouring Yemen. The Crown Prince’s administration is tipping the region toward the spectre of war and possibly a great powers confrontation.
10
Invest in Saudi Arabia - because they now let women drive?
Almost as compelling a pitch as: invest in Saudi Arabia, we now follow some human rights.
Or, invest in Saudi Arabia: now we let you take your money out whenever you want to.
Maybe, invest in Saudi Arabia: our courts now adjudicate against the Saudis (though only in favor of the ruling clan).
How about we not invest in Saudi Arabia till they join the 21st century? Till the respect human rights for all (not just for the ruling clan?). Till they allow locals to abuse the maids or workers who are additionally subjected to inhuman conditions. Till they stop defining what clothes women can wear...
187
What a smart comment, Patrician!
Saudi Arabia is such an odd combination of fabulous wealth and archaic mentalities.
We can't force more progressive ways of thinking, but we have, as you illustrate, our power of the purse.
Thanks, as always, for writing. Warmest regards.
3
Hello, my friend!
Always a joy to hear from you, NM. Thank you for continuing to read my comments. :)
Warmest Regards,
Atif
1
Or, Invest in Saudi Arabia -- four of the 19 terrorists involved in the 9/11 attacks weren't from our country.
5
Known abusers and civil rights deniers. Newly befriended by our no nothing, care nothing, nepotism loving regime, of liars and con men.
Not a total suprise?
8
What?? You mean to say that Saudis -- medieval theocratic monarchists who oppress women and have sex with little boys & whose intimate relations with western oil companies who wrote the book on corrupting Congress -- are Corrupt? Who knew??
10
Does "abuse" in this case mean sleeping on cotton sheets instead of silk and eating with plastic utensils?
How horrifying.
There are plenty of agendas in play here, and every report out of the area should be suspect...especially ones that make it into the news media.
3
Ah yes, we shall be known by our friends. How sweet the world shall be as we ascend to greater greatness. Sure! Friends implement the art of the deal: first you come on tough, then sweetness to bring home the win. Wonderful. NOT
4
Giving women the right to drive is a step in the right direction, but the true test of Saudi advancement into the Democratic world is how Salman uses the confiscated money to modernize & help the poor Arab states in the middle East,& mostly be a force for peace throughout the region.
48
Let's see. We have a President for life in China, a military despot leading North Korea, a dictator as President of the Philippines, Putin in Russia, Putin's puppet in Syria, a dictator President of Venezuela, virtual dictatorship in Iran, Salman controlling Saudi Arabia. In the USA, we have real estate barons and the NRA calling the shots (literally). Looks like the world is in trouble.
3
Mr. bin Salman is clearly using the confiscated money to wage war against Iran and all Shia Moslems. He uses the leftover pocket change to buy da Vincis, yachts, castles, palaces and whatever other shiny baubles happen to catch his attention.
Dan Kravitz
3
Is it? A step in the right direction?
Because it's looking a lot like "giving" women the right to drive is simply, well, giving women the right to drive.
1
A pox on all of them. Their billions do not endow them with morals or intelligence. They finally realize that the market for oil is like the market for buggy whips in the 1900's. Pretty soon they will be an anachronism and there countries will once again be a desert, but this time sprinkled with gaudy decaying cities. This is just the beginning of the musical chairs the princes will play. Let's see how enlightened the princes are when nobody cares about thier oil anymore
33
I’m shock that gambling has been going on in that casino! Our government’s continued support for Saudi Arabia has been noth8ng but a disaster for us and the world.
6
The medieval monarchy that is the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia seems to have joined the 21st century in becoming a kleptocracy. And, of course, they have been embraced by Donald Trump including a small payoff of $110 billion arms deal, our continued support for the war in Yemen, and a burgeoning alliance that now includes Israel in joining the Islamic civil war between the Sunni Saudis and Shiite Iran. The rapid proliferation of strongman states from Saudi Arabia, China, Hungary, Poland, Turkey, and, of course, Vladimir Putin's Russian Federation is alarming and fraught with immense danger for the U.S. and it's own wannabe strongman, Donald Trump.
54
Stephen Gillers, the NYU ethics expert is wrong. The UK Bribery Act proscribes the taking of monies from a government official to facilitate corruption or a crime. Like many anti-corruption laws adopted in the last 20 or so years including the US Foreign Corrupt Practices Act, the UK Bribery law has extra-territorial reach and is intended to support the business trends of greater transparency and uniformity of business ethics. Coercion and abuse has no place in modern business practices.
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But the UK authorities seem disinclined to follow their own law. Just as they are not inclined to prosecute Russian kleptocrats stashing funds in opaque real estate deals in London, the authorities seem similarly disinclined to investigate UK lawyers doing the Saudi king's bidding.
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No kidding. They had Murdoch by the emails, so he just tossed them his grunts' email server to keep the executive's server secreted. Without evidence, you can't enforce the FCPA, but his lawyer said he'd have to pay $2 billion if they didn't agree to his deal.
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Anyone who thinks that this is anything more than a shakedown operation that is part of an ongoing internecine war within the house of Saud doesn't understand the house of Saud.
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Forced to live in the Ritz Carlton with a meager allowance of $26,00 a WEEK - brutal.
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It appears what this Crown Prince is doing is brutal. But in many parts of the world corrupt cannot be brought to justice by any other means. See in India. Major corrupt folks escaped from the country with insider info. In fact, the big corrupt folks left with lots of money to live in Britain or Switzerland lavishly while the poor pays the price. It will be great for NYTimes to cover those as well. Let's not kid ourselves that US media knows what is best in every part of the world. Of course, torture and assassinations need to be brought to light and should put pressure. NYTimes has done a good job with that. Going after corrupt? It is not easy in most parts of the world including the U.S.
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This I know: I wouldn't board any aircraft on which MBS is a passenger.
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Absolutely NO nuclear weapons for the Saudis.
Until they abolish the monarchy and install a democratic republic, they should be completely cut off, left to drift in their stale history. Forever.
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According to one relative and two associates of the Abdullah family, his children are allowed to withdraw $26,000 per week each from their accounts to cover their expenses.
Yup.
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Yeah, it is easy to empathize, even sympathize with the poor folks locked up at the Ritz. What with them owning a country and all, and amassing huge fortunes largely because of "birth," and the ability to squeeze out money from anyone buying oil, and everyone wanting to conduct business in the kingdom. I mean the gall of someone to take it away from them, to show who is boss. Every tout and degenerate in major cities around the world will miss these princes, their spending, and their appetite for . . .
The history of how royal successions occur in Islamic kingdoms, sheds light on these turn of events.
I suspect the new prince is remarkably with the times, and amazingly modern. Were he Wahabi in orientation, these nice folks at the Ritz would have faced trial and a beheading.
Kalidan
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One hopes the end the need for Saudi oil comes soon. Corruption, graft, barbaric punishment of citizens, suppression of free speech and political expression, fundamentalistist religious fanaticism--these people are not our friends.
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Don: You are right. The Saudis, though, are a model that the Trump/Kushner tribe admires. (Who knows what financial ties they may have already.) The United States government,for its part, has also looked the other way for many decades, out of some twisted, arrogant view is that it serves our interests to do so-- going as far as to protect them even from investigation after 9/11. The Saudis reek, and that stink continues to permeate American officials as well.
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Government theft, dressed up as something noble. It will happen here too once America's hushed-up $200 trillion in unfunded liabilities become obvious to everyone. And due to philosophical concerns, most likely under a Democratic administration.
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Did anyone seriously think any different was going to happen?
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"Stephen Gillers, an expert on legal ethics at New York University, said lawyers would not be penalized as long as they adhered to local laws — in this case, those set by the Saudi monarch."
Ha, ha, ha is the code of ethics for lawyers a joke? I hope we hear from some lawyers, what happens when there are NO written local laws to adhere to? To me it sounds like a lawyerly evasion of ethical responsibility. A personal interpretation by some monarch, of a medieval religious code of conduct, does not a law make.
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What code of ethics. Saudi Arabia is a hereditary monarchy, and the seizures were "perfectly legal" in the context of the country. It's not a Democracy, in case you didn't know.
Ernest Montague Oakland,
"What code of ethics. Saudi Arabia is a hereditary monarchy, and the seizures were "perfectly legal" in the context of the country. It's not a Democracy, in case you didn't know. "
This was precisely my point Mr. Montague. Mr Gillers, an expert on legal ethics at New York University, said lawyers would not be penalized as long as they adhered to local laws. In a lawless hereditary monarchy it is absurd to say that it is ethical to obey the law of the land when the law of the land is the word of a despot.
I would hope the legal profession would have higher ethical standards and would be able to distinguish the ethical difference between written law, that draws its validity because it express the will of the people through popular elections, and the "law" of the whims of a brutal ruler. The "law" of Saudi Arabia resembles the unwritten law of any narco-gang, mafia hoodlum, or other criminal enterprise where the validity of the law is the word of the boss. The legal profession should draw an ethical line in helping a lawless monarch commit acts, that in any society, with a valid legal system would be considered criminal.
I hope yours is not the thinking of our legal profession.
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All the right "corporate" legal credentials, supported by the 'right' banking authorities have signed off on this blatant hostage extortion agenda. Looking-the-other-way for 'friends' is why so many citizens in western democracies have no respect for their own governments and institutions; always willing to lay down with dogs. The "Profits of Chaos" do not disturb lawyers and bankers who launder Russian, terrorism, drug, and extortion money around the world.
Everyone must sign on and pay their respects now that MBS has outdone Putin in the state-sponsored Saudi financial coup. Trump has made gangsterism great again. Even the victims are please to keep their heads, much less their wealth and power.
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I'm having a hard time feeling sorry for Saudi billionaires getting extorted by their own government. At least they're billionaires in the first place. The US government seems to have a general preference for abusing and robbing the poor instead. Don't even get me started on Gitmo or the Bush family either. There is plenty of hypocrisy to go around.
Where I do happen to agree is concerning international business relations. This is not good for investors on either side of the divide. Saudi Arabia has a whole heap of cash. Interjecting uncertainty into Saudi financial surety is not only bad for Saudi royalty. The uncertainty is bad for businesses relying on Saudi investment for their companies. Salman's aggressive tactics might lead to a broader disruption. We just don't know yet.
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Replace the opened toe sandals and robes with wing tipped shoes and expensive suits and you can watch the same types of coercion happening in Connecticut divorce courts on a routine basis.
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Whilst I don't know where he is personally going, in principle how the elite put their house in order is up to them and unusual villains and circumstances require unusual tactics. My concern would always be with the ordinary person trying to live. d
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I would like to ask, how much of this was planned and carried out with the involvement of Jared Kushner and the Trump Administration, I can't help but notice it was the first destination in Trump's coronation celebratory world tour.
The Crown prince was in Washington, in the oval office days after the election.
How much cover and support has the Administration provided to the Crown prince's antics?
Quite a great deal publicly, but how much of that relationship do we Americans know... is the White House aiding the Kingdom's power play?
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In the light most favorable to the Saudi government, these people were detained as part of a process to clarify "rightful" ownership of property.
And that is the problem. Due process of law, and all that entails, has not yet been established.
The Crown Prince and the government would do well to keep in mind that he who governs best, governs least. Meaning that when everyone has a common understanding of what the law requires, the need for governmental intervention is minimal.
One final thing for the Saudis to keep in mind is one of Solomon's great proverbs: The wealthy are always wise in their own eyes, but an intelligent poor person can see through their self deceit.
I sincerely hope the government and people of Saudi Arabia are able to complete this necessary paradigm shift with dignity and Justice for all. The peace of us all depends on it.
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"But the government, citing privacy laws, has refused to specify the charges against individuals and, even after they were released, to clarify who was found guilty or innocent, making it impossible to know how much the process was driven by personal score settling."
Does this make sense to anyone? Government privacy laws.....?
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Rule of Law means noting in Saudi Arabia or to Trump. But, it is vital to our corporations in international business. How is Trump Making America Great by undermining legal protection of our corporations?
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“Without any kind of transparency or rule of law, it makes investors nervous that their investments might be taken and that their Saudi partners might be detained without any rationale to the charges.”
These investors should be worried about Trump for the same reason. Think of all the five star prisons he could have around the country.
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The Saudi regime is in trouble. Despite the recent increase in state subsidies to the general population they have significant economic and political. These subsidies were more a sign of fragility and a restive population than any generosity by the government.
Thie war in Yemen has cost billions and with no results other than the killing of 25,000 civilians. Their intrigues with the UAE have gone nowhere. Their funding of ISIS and efforts to seize Syria failed. And their old alliance with Iraq is clearly over as the new government is led by the Shia majority.
On top of all this, the Arabian peninsula's main agricultural aquifer has run dry. They no longer have enough water to grow commercial crops.
This crack down on corruption was simply extortion so that the Crown Prince could fill in some of these considerable gaps. The regime is not about to fall, at least not yet. But the cracks are beginning to widen.
The US made a deal after WWII that they would prop up this royal dictatorship in exchange for a share of ARAMCO. But winds of change are in the air and American's should be wary of any further efforts to stay close to what is a brutal corrupt regime.
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Indeed you are correct, but the other side of the coin is that Saudi Arabia provides absolutely critical balance (along with Egypt) againsit the Iranian - Hezbollah threat that seeks to weaken the west's position in the middle east. Applying western morals/ethics/judgement to this friendly (or at least an ally) Islamic nation may not be our best choice. They are still a powerhouse of weapons and oil in the region and has become a loose if not open ally of Israel. Finally, it must be remembered that this country is not a democracy, it is ruled as the article states, by a Royal Family. My point is that they are not "us" either in culture or in government.
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Excellent, informative comment.
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Since we don't know on what authority Dr. Spock speaks, it is hard to evaluate this information. It makes sense, however, and creates a dire picture.
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Meanwhile your most prominent opinion columnist has written several op-eds touting bin Salman’s zeal for transparency and reform. From reading Friedman’s gullible (or bought?) columns, one would think bin Salman was the second coming of Vaclav Havel.
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Same with David Ignatius of the WaPo. One wonders where their critical thinking went on this issue -- how could anyone take MBS word at face value without even wondering what might really behind this in this very opaque, undemocratic country.
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And these are our friends? These are the people with whom Jared Kushner has secret meetings, and for whom President Trump has nothing but praise? Once again, it’s all about petro dollars. Even if you do not believe in anthropogenic climate change, is the Saudi’s behavior not more evidence that the world needs to wean itself off of fossil fuels?
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The Saudis have made millions of dollars of donations to the Clinton Foundation. As we all know the Clinton Foundation is a charity of the highest standard. So the Saudis can't be all bad.
Exactly, Mr. Fordin. Also, would it change the trajectory of the article if we learned whom among them funded 9/11?
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At first it looked like the Saudis were going to advance beyond their medieval world. But, once again, absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Of course we need to replace fossil fuels and get out of the grip the Middle East has on us. But with what? Electric vehicles you say. But most electric generating plants burn fossil fuels. OK, close them down and replace them with solar, wind, geothermal, ocean waves, etc. But there's just not enough of it. It's like trying to power an SUV with rubber bands.
The scale of energy use is so huge that only nuclear can supply it. So we need to move beyond the scaled-up 1950s submarine reactor designs and get serious about the several modular, safer, and more advanced nuclear plant designs that dedicated people are working on.
Nuclear-power can not only supply electricity for vehicles and buildings, but also for plants that can convert fast-growing cellulosic biomass like miscanthus and switchgrass into liquid fuels like ethanol and methanol. And that would be nearly carbon neutral.
Worldwide, about 50 nuclear reactors are under construction or in the advanced design stage. China has 19, India has 6, Russia, despite Chernobyl, has 5. Even Japan (remember Fukushima) has one. The US has two. The rest of the World understands that there is no perfect solution. And there is no time to waste.
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One of my closest friends is an American who has been the lead corporate lawyer for 30+ years for one of Saudi Arabia's most prominent princes. This Saudi prince, who is as enlightened as they come and actively walks the walk with respect to women's rights, is a very prominent businessman with a fortune in the billions -- which he made not through corruption, but by wisely buying or investing in businesses around the world. He was one of the people arrested (without probable cause) by Crown Prince Bin Salman and kept in a hotel room without the ability to contact anyone for several months.
Let me assure anyone who has any doubts about what Crown Prince Bin Salman has been doing these past months: this isn't about "corruption" among Saudi royals and businessmen. It's about a shakedown for billions of dollars, as well as about sending a very clear message to anyone who would even think about trying to kick Bin Salman out of power.
Sycophantic apologists for Bin Salman like "journalist" Thomas Friedman should be ashamed of themselves for writing lies about what Bin Salman has actually been up to. It is good to finally see an article in a responsible newspaper that is getting closer to the truth about the sad current situation in Saudi Arabia.
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funny, i'd like to think i've made "wise investments," yet i don't have billions.
i wonder how he did it?
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Should the President, who has no shame, also be ashamed? Just another instance of Trump siding with the money and the strong man leader. Thomas Friedman is not responsible for Bin Salman.
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I had the pleasure to meet a wife of one of the top princes, who happens to be an astute businessman and a progressive.
I met her at an international conference on women and education. With her then-husband's support, she had set up a foundation and funds projects in many countries with the goal of empowering women.
5
And Trump would love him and praise him as this Saudi dictator steps foot on our democratic soil.
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Abuse of power, absolute in the case of crown Prince Mohammed, with a hefty dose of torture it seems. 'Follow the money', is an old adage, with some truth to it, as Saudi license 'above any reasonable nor logical constraint' suggests. And Trump, so friendly to despots around the world, seems very comfortable with their 'graft'; but in a democracy, some constraints seem 'alive and well', as the current investigation of Trump's suspected ill-gotten fortune suggests, and Putin's interference in the elections...handing demagogue Trump the presidency. Lax regulations and scurrilous lawyers allow a con man free rein, it seems.. But Mueller's job is to rule out, or in, Russian connections with Trump's mafia-like 'business as usual', and risking U.S. security. For those who refuse to get involved in politics by claiming it is dirty, think again, as the current misrule is raw 'politicking', not politics (the art of the possible).
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Saudi Arabia and its neighbors have always been a hush state. The fact that KSA is shaking and making reforms in itself is a big thing. I feel this is just the beginning and much more is to come all of this is happening when Salman is still only the prince I wonder what all happens when he becomes the absolute power The King.
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Call Saudi Arabia a 'state' is problematic. What we have here is the marriage of a petro-cartel and the self-proclaimed managers of Islam's holiest sites/exporters of Wahhabi Islam, which include religious extremists who fund violence including today's horrific war in Yemen and the 9-11 attacks. In the end even the Islamic extremists have bowed down to the almighty dollar as they now have a tacit alliance with the Israeli state.
Did I read this right? Only a few months ago Tom Friedman wrote in this newspaper: "I never thought I’d live long enough to write this sentence: The most significant reform process underway anywhere in the Middle East today is in Saudi Arabia. Yes, you read that right."
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It is possible that the new young King Salman can bring about significant reforms and still take money from fellow Saudis. Affecting a civil war, taking out some of the might of your antagonists, is not incompatible with making a broader reform.
Saudi Arabia has always been a treacherous place; but certainly, the relatives of past King Abdullah were not prepared for house arrest and seizure of their fortunes; however, the fact that so much (ill-gotten??) wealth remains outside of Saudi Arabia suggests some were prepared.
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The Sauds brought us such wonders as the 9/11 hijackers, the Yemen Genocide, tank attacks on protesters in Bahrain, and a worldwide addiction to the literally-job-killing global warmer petroleum; and gods know what diplomatic mess "covfefe" gofer Generic Cutpurse was negotiating with them as they apparently pressured the PM of Lebanon to resign.
Of course you can expect physical abuse and worse from that tyrant family, even as they claim to clean up. It's what they do.
If you don't just want to save money on car insurance, but help women drive in Arabia without fear, you overthrow tyrants. It's what you do.
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These billionaires were enjoying the authocracy and privilege. Now they get to experience the other side of the system that they have profited from. As French say: "le voleur volé"
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I'll not be going to Saudi Arabia anytime soon and that is final.
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Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman, the Royal and Inimitable Saudi Robin Hood, steals from the rich (other family members) to make himself richer. In the name of fighting corruption when what he is doing is the biggest corruption of all?
The Royal Saudis all richly (no pun intended) deserve each other. It's no wonder that D.J. Trump is so in love with them ... he adores all that drama over money. What says the Qu'ran about all of this? You go, guys?
And the Saudis are our dearest allies. But, then, are we any better?
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I don't read the Qu'ran, but it surely speaks about as much of those Wahabbist extremists as the Bible speaks of the Grahams and Falwells.
Both religions were far from perfect, but zealots have steered both from possible founts of intellect and compassion into powerful, abusive political machines whose fitting adjectives aren't Fit to Print.
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Are you talking about a kingdom that beheads people and treats women worse than animals? Come on, NYT.
Only a useless America, driven by corporate greed, would partner with such a despicable country as SA so we dumb and fat Americans can drive gigantic, useless SUV's and pickups.
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While I don't disagree with your position re SA, I certainly disagree with your illustration regarding "gigantic, useless SUV's (sic) and pickups." Perhaps you're right, living in the wilds of Connecticut as you do, about yourself and your neighbors.
But I assure you that in much of the West, away from the dense cities on the coast, SUVs and pickups are as necessary a well-drilling rigs and tractors. It might be pretty funny to watch you trying to get my livestock into the back of your BMW, though.
If you've never driven the Great Basin or even the Interstate from El Paso to Billings you might want to be a little more courteous to your fellow citizens (many of us as progressive as you fancy yourself to be).
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"But the government, citing privacy laws, has refused to specify the charges"
"Privacy laws"? there are no written laws in Saudi Arabia. The judges make up the laws in personal interpretation of the so called Sharia law that is a medieval religious code of conduct. The government simply refused to specify charges because there are no laws or constitution compelling it to do so.
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this isn't a country, this is a medieval absolute monarchy that creates nothing beyond pumping oil that they couldn't even do without our help, yet the world licks there boots all the while criticizing the one democracy in the Middle East. remember 9/11 was a saudi operation.
3
Oh really?
Are these the same people that our president was doing the Saudi sword dance with while he was vacationing at taxpayer expense last year?
Remember Trump’s smile, his joy, his adoration while he and his family and entourage were visiting and making deals on our buck?
We paid for his corruption......again.
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the same country where obama bowed to the king?
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All I vividly remember actually was the photo of the odd seance gathering around the large globe that Trump and his Saudi handlers were fondling.
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Yeah, but trump got a really great necklace from the Saudis.
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This is a playbook right out of the old Kings and Nobles struggles. The English Crown has played this game a number of times in past ages.
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$300 plus million not a bad inheritance.
The middle East is ,has been and always will be a place where rule of law changes to benefit those in power.Why anyone (foreign to the Middle East)would want to do business there is focused on short term gain for long term pain.
Investors in the Aramco public offering should keep this in mind
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"The middle East is ,has been and always will be a place where rule of law changes to benefit those in power."
how exactly is this different from the US? you have plutocrats who do whatever they want, they have sheiks. How much more "empowered" or protected by law is an average American compared to an average Saudi?
The Trump Administration--as well as both Bushes before them--have made it clear that they are in bed with the Saudis. Our presidents' not-so-silent alliances with this regime speak volumes about what may be going on right under our noses going back to 9/11 and probably before. Corruption, coercion, violence, bigotry, and radicalism are all descriptive of those in power in this nation. Just what are the hidden benefits for both the Bushes and the Trumps? You can bet money and power are in the mix.
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Why did you overlook Obama, who actually bowed before them?
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Sadly, the Saudi problem in US politics goes beyond just the Republicans - during Hillary Clinton's time as Secretary of State, she and Obama approved the sale of over $30 billion of weapons to Saudi Arabia. This was up 97% on the preceding 4 years, and was more than the total for George Bush II 8 years in office. Oh, and don't forget the Saudi government "donated" $10,000,000 to the Clinton Foundation. Now what would have been their reasons for doing that? Clinton's Campaign Manager, John Podesta, was also paid six figures a month to be a lobbyist for the regime.
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The Royal family, like all royal families have done as much to be deserving of the riches they have stolen as my dog.
In fact my dog has squandered fewer riches and has not funded terrorists or any wars. So she is more deserving.
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Exactly. They need to do some honest work like building multi-million dollar condos where Russians can launder their stolen money.
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