The high tax states who have consistently voted for taxes that provide the public infrastructure that we value. Even with the benefits of deductions, that the envious angry poverty stricken Red Taker States like Florida and every single republican run state, We still send more to these "Taker States" them we get back.
I am really tired of carrying these poorly run states, retire every republican in reach from Congress down to local county auditor. Then rescind the bad portions of this law and yank every tax break that rewards off shoring jobs and cash stashing.
It failed with Reagan, Bush43 and Kansas under Brownback. It will fail here again.
8
For the record, all of this anxiety and confusion wasn't necessary. A big Christmas gift? There was no reason for the Republicans to rush through this tax bill. All the urgency was self imposed. The only gain was their single legislative win for the entire year and a big gift for the donor class, who pressured them from within. So much for the rest of us.
6
And here I thought Trump promised to repeal the "carried interest" loophole that allows hedge fund managers pay a much lower tax rate earned income than the rest of us. Whatever happened to that promise?
No, it's much better for the billionaire donors if the GOP socks it to ordinary people in blue states and cities. Take away their deductions, rather than tax the people hiding money in their offshore shell companies. But then Trump would have to pay more, right? Heaven forbid!
6
There's no end to the anti-Republican talking points that are handed out like candy by the president and the deplorable congress. Dems MUST take advantage of these opportunities relentlessly.
4
This guy is the very definition of entitlement:
“There are a lot of angry people here because they feel powerless and they are not used to feeling powerless,” Mr. Halliwell said. “This shows the venal side of politics.”
2
Reality check: The median household income in the USA was $56,516 in 2015, per the Census Bureau. That's total household income.
If your household brings in, say, two or three times that, you are NOT middle income or middle class -- no matter where you live. So it is with tiny violins playing in the background that we ask you to look toward your own city and state governments for a tax break, not your fellow taxpayers. And it's still America: You're free to move where taxes are lower and living is easier.
7
What a callus amd Republican attitude. It isn't that simple to uproot your life just to move for lower taxes and cost of living. It will negatively impact the higher cost/tax states, which also tend to be heavily Democratic. Funny that they're in the minority in Congress right now. BTW If you're making 56K in those states you are struggling; You are anything but middle class. Using a national average is pointless
9
I moved from NJ to FL and run a business... and life is better. Nothing in life is simple, but it's very realistic. And if such moves hurt the "higher cost/tax states," all the better. They should be forced to moderate their outlandishly high property, state and city taxes by competing with other states. And sorry, but $56K is the actual median in this country -- half make less, half make more. Facts matter. Biases don't.
3
Chris...
How about we redistribute money collected to the Federal coffers more equitably to the states whom do the contributing? Household income is also a function of education, success, and work ethic which we have plenty of and of which we contribute accordingly to the financial success of the nation. Now, back to Disneyland.
5
Don't forget taxes are the highest form of patriotism.
But I thought Dems were all for the rich paying more taxes? People who have property taxes of $10K and $20K and more are rich.
6
It's hard to feel sorry for people who can, on the spur of the moment, afford to pay an extra $30,000 tax bill early. Their tax break is paid for by those who are less well off. I have to save up all year to pay my (much lower) property taxes.
12
Who is talking about paying early a 30K tax bill? I am paying early so I can deduct to make ends meet. AND. I am paying with a credit card, then a balance transfer to pay that.
1
I wonder how many homeowners in the fancy New York suburbs who now find themselves trying to avoid the giant Republican tax bite that's on its way, are still happy with their man Trump.
They had better hold onto their seats because "they ain't seen nothin' yet!"
14
Most of them voted for Hillary.
3
We know from history that Americans will only take the scourge of unfair taxation for so long, and then...
7
If that is the case we will be having a tea party in the capitols of the blue states....
3
One glaring lack in this new tax bill is the elimination of the religious exemption.
Churches are just social clubs where members profess a shared belief in some silly superstition or another. There is absolutely no reason their income and property shouldn't be taxed like any other organization's. I'm tired of supporting bigoted proselytizing on my hard-earned dime. We need to work to make sure that "religious" groups start ponying up instead of enjoying an undeserved free ride.
That would've probably covered the $1.5 trillion needed for the billionaire tax breaks.
26
Getting rid of ALL deductions and tax advantages for religious organizations needs to be agenda item #1 when Democrats get back in power and get a chance to go at the tax code.
It is APPALLING that we cannot fully deduct state and local taxes that go to the common good, but Mormons and Evangelicals can deduct their 10% "tithes" to a church that does NOTHING for the common good of society and works against the good of many members of society.
Churches should pay local property taxes too.
And any religiously affiliated hospital or charitable organization should be required to serve ALL people and provide ALL services according to secular medical ethics in order to receive Medicaid, Medicare, tax deductible donations, or any other tax advantages.
I am sick as heck of personally subsidizing religion as a taxpayer - especially religions that work against my health, civil rights, and well being as a woman.
Get it done, Democrats. No more "charitable" deductions for churches.
31
Yeah, let's start taxing charities and homeless people. It's not like they need money, amirite?
I think a compromise could be found by reversing the decision of the IRS in the 80's (made under duress and thru fraud) to grant Scientology tax exempt status.
3
Good luck on that one.
Taxing the wealthy and their expensive homes is not a bad thing.
10
What happened to the issue of being a "cash basis" taxpayer. If my property tax was due in 2017 and I paid it in 2018 with penalties, then I can't use the deduction in 2017. But if I prepay for 2018 in 2017, again as a cash basis taxpayer, I should be able to use the deduction when I pay it. Isn't that the whole issue of being a "cash basis" taxpayer?
5
When my spouse and I bought our Long Island home 25 years ago, we did not think about the SALT deduction. It was a time when home prices and property taxes were reasonable. We could make do on one salary while I chose to stay home to raise our two children.
Fast forward to today and home prices and property taxes in the NYC suburbs are out of reach for people like us. We have joked for many years that we could not afford the modest home we have now. Instead of doing story after story about the cap on the SALT deduction, how about investigating why housing and property taxes have reached the point where only those with significant six figure incomes can afford to live here anymore. Long Island has become a place for the poor and only the most upper of the middle class along with the wealthy. For most, It is not the place your children settle in after college or you stay in your retirement years.
4
Children right after college have about 10 years before they marry. They settle temporarily in urban areas not for financial reasons but social reasons. They pay through the NOSE to live in many of these areas, but they want to be near bars, clubs, and other young people.
Retirees want to settle in low tax places with warmer weather and lots of recreation. No problem with that.
Higher tax suburbs, on the other hand, are a great place to live when you are in your 30s and 40s and have school age children. I don't know much about Long Island, but I have no problem with paying our property taxes to our Connecticut town so we can have fantastic schools. It is WORTH EVERY PENNY, especially when I talk to friends who have moved to a "low tax" state and they complain that their kindergartener is in a class with 30 kids and an underpaid teacher. We have a lot of new families in our town who have moved here recently for the schools.
There is nothing wrong with different places appealing to different stages of life. As a 38 year old mother of 3, I would much rather pay my high property taxes to live in a town with good public schools than have low taxes and have to shell out five times as much for decent private school tuition - especially with so many private schools being substandard Roman Catholic parochial schools (my husband used to work for them - what a MESS) that teach medieval values or Independant schools that offer more "brand" than they do educational substance.
9
What you are describing is what led California to pass Proposition 13 and Michigan its Proposal A. Both measures cap property taxes and prevent them from doing up dramatically until a house is sold.
4
This is nothing. Just wait until the Republicans destroy your Medicaid, Medicare and Social Security. That's in the works already.
30
All three need reductions and this shouldn't scare you.
1
Oh c'mon, Driven! Yeah, let's kill all the people that need Medicaid & Medicare. And who needs Social Security, anyway? Probably not you, particularly after you enjoy the obscene lowering of your taxes form the higher class.
3
As a long time renter... hard to garner too much sympathy....but I will try to muster up some thoughts and prayers.
4
I don't think it's about sympathy as much as it's about an unfair application of tax laws (for what little I know about these things, it sure doesn't look right to me). And what a surprise it is to suddenly find out that what you counted on to plan your finances for the year is suddenly not there. Many people have lived in homes for years that have appreciated like crazy, yet they can barely cover the property taxes. It may seem like a story that deserves no sympathy, but again, it's the case where the well off and rich will do just fine, while those that are tottering on the edge, financially speaking, will have a hard time.
15
Unfortunately cost increases to owners will simply be passed down to tenants, this is how it always is. Nobody wins.
3
As a renter do you truly believe that you are not paying property taxes?
Your landlord is including taxes in the rental rate they are charging you. The bill may not be coming in your name, bit you most certainly are paying it. Plan on a rental increase in your next lease term.
Now do you have some sympathy?
11
Does President Trump claim Florida as his primary state of residence instead of New York or does he just have very clever accountants and lawyers? It is really hard for me to imagine he would shoot himself in the foot with a tax bill designed to hurt NY Taxpayers so much. Has anyone looked into this?
12
He is a resident of New York as are his children. He voted in NYC - remember?
3
Voters need to turn out in force across all affected states in 2018 and vote out any and all Republicans in the House and Senate on the ballot.
35
HA HAAA.
Just like in the WWE, you wanted it, you got it.
Well, perhaps you didn't, but you're still going to get it.
This is the WWE Presidency.
The rush to prepay property tax debacle is merely the tip of the proverbial iceberg in terms of what everyone is going to find out about their taxes in the coming year. That's what happens when tax policies are negotiated one-sided, behind closed doors, and rushed into law.
Many of us saw this coming. Everyone will realize soon enough. But we're all going to get it.
15
Good call Matty. Just wait until Feb 1 when everyone's paycheck is bigger because less money is being withheld for taxes.
It's funny how liberals and progressives come to the defense of folks with more than $10,000 in SALT taxes. Anyone paying that amount in SALT taxes is upper middle-class at the very least. Asking these folks to pay more in federal taxes is not a tax cut for the rich, but the exact opposite. I'll be hit by this $10,000 cap as well since I live in Illinois, and my property taxes and state income tax is well above the new limit, but I don't cry like a baby.
6
For over 30 years, there has been support for eliminating or limiting State and Local tax deductions for purposes of Federal taxation. It is unfortunate that many sniveling crybabies in high tax states are complaining about the new law after this one proposal has been out there for decades.
As for Gov. Cuomo's claim that New York is an “economic engine”. Why is New York in danger of losing a US House seat after the 2020 census ?
According to the Tax Foundation, these are the states where Tax Freedom Day arrives on the latest date. Residents in these states should consider demanding lower State and Local taxes. Stop throwing a tantrum about Federal taxes and contact the appropriate State and Local elected officials:
Connecticut, New Jersey, New York, Massachusetts, California, Illinois, Minnesota, Maryland, Rhode Island, Wisconsin, Washington.
6
So you are OK with giving billionaires big tax cuts on the backs of millions of middle-class citizens, and those who will be paying back (plus interest!) the $1.5 trillion the government is borrowing to finance the rest of the billionaire tax breaks?
Be sure to write that down, put it in an envelope and tell your grandkids to open it in about 30 years, when the "trickle down" effects of the Trump Administration's economic and tax policies are blighting their lives.
11
They want all the so-called services public employees provide. They also want their public employees to be able to retire earlier with much better benefits and money than they will ever have. It makes them feel good.
Funny that they think that this kind of tax increase could ever fund single payer. Now that would be a tax increase to actually complain about.
2
These states are losing population because they are losing retirees, ie. people who are done being productive. Our population is getting older, a higher proportion of our population is retirees, therefore places that attract retirees will grow in population, and the places that retirees move from will shrink, even if they remain the most economically productive parts of America.
Also, as a Connecticut resident, I VALUE what my local property taxes pay for. Every penny of it. I don't want my town to lower property taxes and cut teachers and raise class sizes or reduce police response.
I can't say I value everything the Federal government blows my money on. Sure, infrastructure is good, and a reasonable military, but I could care less about billion dollar fighter jets and welfare for Alabama and various pork projects and subsidies. I would much rather reduce my Federal taxes than my local taxes.
9
Folks, just remember who brought you this: Republicans. And they are also bringing poorer schools and roads and every other public service you can imagine. Just remember....and vote.
33
nyt, please explain how property taxes are utilized. are property taxes high in some locales because they cover a longer list of tax payer services? that would mean the cap on deduction would apply to taxes on different lists of tax payer services. explain how local and other taxes on these lists of tax payer services are addressed in the bill. obviously I know nothing NY times, so please clarify!
1
Property taxes are often high because people value their schools.
In my Connecticut town, I pay 9K a year on a 410K house. The staff / student ratio at my daughters' elementary school is 1/11. There are 16 kids in my daughter's kindergarten class with both a lead teacher and an aid.
In my hometown in Michigan (similar upper middle class demographic), a 410K house would pay about 4K in taxes. The staff / student ratio at the local public school is 1/22. The kindergarten classes have about 25-28 kids in them.
Other reasons for high property taxes is low property values (what property there is needs to be taxed more to maintain similar services), corruption and graft, financial mismanagement, and insane pensions - all things that I DO think some localities need to deal with better.
6
For Californians who have a split property tax - 1/2 in 2017 and 1/2 due in 2018 - this bill can be prepaid into 2017 with no fallout as there is a tax statement and assessment. These bills are on a "pay by date" and can be paid anytime up to and until they're due. You CANNOT prepay farther than this according to the CA. state controller. You then have 1/2 of your property tax due in 2018 and maybe (a big maybe) by 2019 this entire bill will have "repealed and replaced".
11
If republicans told their voters they could jump off a building and deduct the entire cost of their flight, elevators across the country would be full.
11
An unfortunate truth, that even as they will see higher taxes because Fox News will blame it on Democrats and the last President Mr Obama
3
"...stew of emotions had been replaced by utter confusion, as well as rage, including among people who had shelled out money only to discover that they might not get any benefit."
Rush to pay taxes !
Wonder how many of these high roller property owners voted for the Scam Artist in Chief who was behind this scam !!
Next time think seriously about the people running for office .
Enjoy the rest of this current administration in DC.
12
You should be able to deduct local taxes because it is double taxation. You are paying taxes twice, once to the Federal Government and then to the State pn the same income. usually for services not provided by the Federal government like education and health care. Civics 101 tells any sixth grader this basic fact. The Republican tax bill punishes anyone paying state taxes, and rewards people in states with no State taxes, like Texas (primarily), Florida and Nevada. The big state taxes are paid by voters in blue states. The tax bill steals from Democrats to pay for Republican largesse to their donors. Any legislator from a Blue State who voted for this tax bill is going to be out on his or her ear in 2018. That is why the only NO votes from Republicans came from California, New York and New Jersey (with one from North Carolina--the only principled anti-deficit Republican) This tax bill is robbery pure and simple, and the confusion about pre-paying taxes only shows how badly it was crafted. It will take a long time to fix this mess.
33
The double taxation argument may be valid for State and local income taxes. This article, however, is addressing the question pf property taxes which are assessed on what one owns, not on what one earns.
7
the article is about confusion about prepaying taxes, or not prepaying. then tried to explain which taxes are addressed in the bill, the tax payer services funded, apparently it differs by locale. that would be unfair and complicated to address in the bill. I think that means the bill is unfair and complicated. and confusing!
1
Gov. Cuomo is considering a legal challenge to the limit on the SALT deduction. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-tax-new-york/new-york-governor-qu...
The Supreme Court has ruled against double taxation before, when it involved two separate states both taxing income.
I don't know that the SALT deduction on federal income taxes has ever been limited. If not, it will be tested in the courts.
2
I completely agree. States like Minnesota, where I live, have been able to continue to raise state taxes without much restraint because they are "deductible". States like Connecticut and New Jersey have high property taxes while New York City absurdly does not. I hope this will introduce some discipline into state and local governments if they lose those ever increasing piggy banks. I am a high wage earner (a salaried physician) and my taxes are going up about 8K next year and that is okay with me - more okay than with my governor adding a new tax bracket to tax the rich (which is over $150K per year for a couple to him) or when Obama raised the highest marginal tax rate "on the rich". Truly rich people don't pay it - wage earners like me do. All of this whining about property taxes and prepayment is coming from well off or wealthy people; most middle class people are not paying over 10K for property taxes. As for people with second homes - cry me a river or mortgages over $750,000 - cry me a river.
9
And by the way - our governor Mark Dayton is an heir to the Dayton family wealth - but they keep their trust in South Dakota so they pay no state tax on it. The additional tax bracket which was added for the "rich" has resulted in an over 2 billion dollar surplus in Minnesota - and all they can do it think about how to spend it....free money, right?
2
I am a Registered Nurse living in California. I pay close to $20,000 in Salt & property taxes, so now I will be double taxed on half of that. Yes, this bill does hurt the middle class especially the higher end of the range which includes many nurses, firefighters & police.
14
I would like to point out that "absurdly" low real estate taxes in NYC are a thing of the past. Property taxes in NYC have risen dramatically along with real estate prices, and are now as absurd as the prices themselves. At least suburbanites get good schools for their tax dollars. In NY, we have, well, let's put it this way: I send my children to private school.
1
My property tax bill is 7k, so I'm ok. I got no income except for my 401k. The thought that those who called for higher taxes, now, when they see their taxes go up, cry foul amuses me a lot.
8
Wow, this is massively ignorant. You pay income taxes as regular income on 401(k) withdrawals. Sad!
2
Actually Beth - with the lower tax brackets, Crow will actually benefit from this tax bill on his 401(k) withdrawals. Don't be ignorant. Sad!
4
Plus the standard deduction is bigger.
First of all, I am a semi-retired CPA.
If someone is going to be in an AMT position (subject to the alternative minimum tax) on their federal income taxes for 2017, it will do that person zero good to pay his or her 2018 property taxes in 2017. In that scenario, the individual would lower his/her regular income tax liability, but there would be a corresponding increase in the AMT taxes paid. So, there's a zero net benefit.
The best 'tax planning' an individual can do regarding this new tax bill get people elected who will repeal the law.
14
If you are subject to AMT now (and make less than $1mm), then you won't be subject starting in 2018. That combined with the reduced brackets actually makes the tax LOWER for those of us in high tax states and already subject to AMT.
2
What a lark- MAYBE, just maybe, if New York did not pay its subway drivers enough to be able to afford a $3 million house in Rock land county, property taxes would not be so high.
12
It most likely didn't cost $3mil when he bought it. My parents bought a house in 1982 on one mechanics salary, when they were in their early 20's.and mortgage rates were high. My cousin rented a nearly identical house in the same development (we are in our late 30's) and when I asked why they weren't buying, being they were a two income household, she said they couldn't afford to, even though rates are half what they were when my parents bought.
The major difference between them and my parents was healthcare. Health insurance eats up 1/6th of their income. The other is that wages have not kept up with inflation in other areas, either, like real estate values.
6
If you’re subject to the AMT, it makes no difference.
The alternative minimum tax (AMT) is an alternative way of calculating taxes that ensures that taxpayers pay a minimum tax rate of 26% to 28%. If, by taking a variety of deductions, someone’s tax rate falls below that threshold, they must pay the difference as alternative minimum tax.
Taxpayers in states with high state and local taxes—like New York and New Jersey—are particularly likely to owe AMT. And because the AMT disallows state and local tax deductions, prepaying your property taxes won’t lower your tax bill. “Your AMT goes up for every penny that you lower it,” says Fred Slater, a CPA in the New York City area. “It’s literally not a penny saved.”
If you were subject to the AMT in 2016, and your situation hasn’t changed substantially, you’re probably subject to the AMT in 2017. “If you want to figure out if you’re in AMT, the only way to really do it is to do a tax return,” says Ellen Minkow, another CPA in New York.
And there’s this: If you’re borderline for being subject to the AMT this year, prepaying your real estate taxes may be enough to trigger it, says Laurie Kane Burkhardt, a financial planner in Boston.
- Forbes
3
The tax bill in general, and this issue in particular, are just like the Muslim immigration ban. A new policy is rolled out so abruptly that even the agency that will enforce the new law has no idea how it works. Confusion and anger ensues, and even people who agree with each other are quickly arguing. Meanwhile, whatever other DT outrage we ought to be focusing on doesn't matter because we are all mega-distracted.
14
New York residents take notice: Governor Cuomo's blanket statement about the prepayment of state income and local real estate taxes is in direct conflict with the latest I.R.S. policy statements about the 2018 tax bill. Cuomo, in a rush to hypocritically criticize Trump and also appease New York taxpayers, has jumped the gun, and the same taxpayers are going to be even more confused and ticked off when their prepayments are rejected by the state and local municipalities.
6
Best thing that has happened this year. Many Americans have accepted overt racism, sexism and misogyny, but hit their pocketbooks and they will turn into Trump haters.
I look forward to the 2018/2020 elections with anticipation.
11
Confusion, yes. Afterall, the tax bill just got signed into law, and it's to be expected to have unanswered questions. As to those rage? What's that for? Those are prepaid taxes for their properties that won't be "wasted," except for the meager interests that they might earn on those prepaid taxes amount. And how much would those interests be anyways? Peanuts.
But I would imagine these people want to outsmart the system, and they are told they might not be that smart afterall, making them look like fools. THAT's probably what the rage would be for, not of the new changes, but at themselves for being not smart enough afterall.
4
Why should you be able to deduct the taxes you pay locally and to the state from your Federal tax return? The Federal Government subsidizing home ownership should have ended a long time ago. Come to think of it, why be able to deduct the interest expense? Another form of subsidy. Do away with them all and allow your home to be sold tax free. I am not sure what the rule is per each state but the bulk of people's investments is their home. The Government should have done away with all of this gradually over say 5 years. Then people could plan and budget accordingly. $20 trillion and counting is a lot of money to pay back.
1
It's been allowed in the past because it was considered unfair double taxation.
Interest deduction was, I believe, a special interest carve out for banks.
Deduction of state, local and property taxes from federal income taxes has been around for DECADES, and does NOT subsidize land purchase. Rather, it's a pretty simple concept that the federal government will/should not tax your taxes, aka double taxation.
However, there is a tax exemption that does subsidize real estate, and it did NOT get repealed in this legislation. The mortgage interest deduction still exists under the new law, which allows taxpayers with existing mortgages to continue to deduct interest on a total of $1 million of mortgage debt for a first and second home. For new buyers, the $1 million limit drops to $750,000. The new law suspends the deduction for interest on home-equity loans through 2025.
This is an outright subsidy to purchase real estate, which has also been around for a longtime. But make no bones about two things: (i) it's a subsidy to buy a home or two, i.e., deduct rent on money to buy a dwelling for those with the means, but no deduction for rent of a dwelling; and (ii) it was not removed because it impacts more so-called red states, ones where senators and congress people felt the pressure from their constituents and lobbyists. I benefit from this deduction/subsidy, but on a logical basis the subsidy cannot stand. But, neither should double taxation.
1
We can fight this through significant, personal financial investment to defeat Rs in OTHER states. Let’s display OUR power.
9
Except that now we don't have as much cash to donate, which may also be part of their plan.
Ponder for a moment: What if the city, state and federal governments each decided to tax you at 50% of your income? Where would you come up with the 150% of your income? There is a reason state and local taxes are deductible -- they are not income to you once you have paid them. By eliminating the deduction, the federal government is imposing double taxation on a portion of your income. This double taxation by the federal government should concern everyone.
16
What should concern everyone is state and local governments that can't seem to stop wanting and wasting more and more money. I for one am pretty fed up with my state attorney general wasting money on lawsuits against the federal government and on our state auditor suing small local governments to stop them from using other audit service (cheaper and more accurate) than the state even though it is allowed by law. State governments have been able to ask for more and more by shielding taxpayers from the full hit because of the "deduction" and making it easier to always ask for more. And there is double taxation all of the time - when was the last time you deducted sales tax paid on your federal taxes?
1
Think about this... for all these years you people in high tax states have used the Federal government deductions to subsidize your spending... putting the burden on low-tax states to make up the difference. Your out-of-control spending needs to be on YOU not us. It's about time this got fixed.
Simple. You wouldn’t have to because no one would live there
Let's not forget that the people affected by this deduction limitation (self included) are relatively well off. I'd like to see all of this hand wringing energy being spent on those of more modest means. The true tragedy of this tax bill is not the moderation of middle class tax breaks but the stealing from the poor to benefit the rich. Let's keep our sense of perspective folks.
3
Please write an article about the OTHER people being damaged, and hte value of yours will not negate the value of this one. We are not lobsters in a pot of hot water, pulling each other down to an equal death. There is no need for anyone to suffer from spiteful amateurish tax laws.
4
This bill was thrown together in a haphazard, largely thoughtless way. What wasn't thoughtless, was the elimination of the SALT deductions above $10K. That was a deliberate, kick in the teeth delivered by the GOP to the high tax states that predominately vote Democratic. It was mean, divisive legislation split right down party lines, that was intended to create trouble within highly taxed communities and by extension punish the state governments. Those states are all "net tax losers", who get a smaller piece of the federal pie than is their due so that "less well off" states may benefit. E Pluribus Unum. So as a "Thank you" the red state representatives delivered a financial stab-in-the-back to their blue counterparts. Apparently slashing corporate taxes wasn't satisfaction enough. They had to add a little political pay-back as well.
18
This is a great opportunity for blue states to contribute to the big government they love so much. Prepaying state tax is a tax dodge and should be condemned.
5
Your guy in the WH is the reigning champ and bragger for tax dodging.
Maybe if we had time to prepare for this pillaging we could have done it less hastily and more strategically. We are playing the hand we’ve been dealt.
11
Blue states DO contribute, far more than red states do.
Read it, it will wipe the smirks off your faces, red state "bootstrappers."
https://wallethub.com/edu/states-most-least-dependent-on-the-federal-gov...
2
What makes me mad is the line that somehow someone in a low tax red state is subsidizing deductions for someone in a high tax blue state. Generally speaking those high tax blue states are paying more in federal taxes than what they get back.
It's the high tax states that are subsidizing the low tax red states. Imagine Alabama or Mississippi getting only what they pay or less from the federal government instead of the $3 for every tax dollar paid they currently get now.
And those are some of the most conservative states, they despise liberals and socialism despite the fact that they greatly benefit from liberals and socialism.
Let's cut them loose and let them practice what they preach.
24
"Practice what they preach" - look at yourself - you want a liberal, progressive tax system? Well you got one. Wealthy Blue states supporting poorer Red States. This is literally socialism in action. Isn't that what you wanted?!
6
Denny, this tax bill is regressive, plain and simple, regressive.
1
He's arguing that there is sufficient socialism already, i.e., the less well off states get far more benefits from the federal goverment than they pay into the system, where the richer states pay more than they get back. This was true under the previous tax system, and now the anti-socialist GOP has made it even more drastic. Bottom line, double taxation is not fair and it's inherently un-American. If the less well off states wanted more for nothing, there's a better way to get it. Really, this is not the less well off state getting more, rather it's the GOP subsidizing their tax cut to corporations by double taxing people in more well off states, pure and simple. Without this subsidy, the GOP would have to negotiate with Democrats, and this would result in bipartisanship which is not well done by either party. This fact does not make this new law good policy, which it is not in my opinion. It will kick our deficit in the teeth.
1
There is anger and frustration, clearly.
But give them time to calm down, and not let their emotions cloud some clear thinking. They will turn their anger at the democrats -- where it rightfully belongs.
- It is their state and local governments that have been hiking their property taxes for their own political survival like funding sanctuary cities.
- The republicans had to limit SALT to keep the tax bill under $1.5T, because they did not have enough votes by themselves. If the democrats like Machin had supported, they could have overcome the $1.5T limitation and come up with a better solution.
- The red states have been subsidizing the SALT deductions in the blue states. Why should the federal government penalize them for your problem?
- The republican reps in the blue states largely voted against this bill. Voting them out for something they did not do, does not make sense.
- What stopped your state governments from providing you universal healthcare with all the SALT money they took from you all these years?
- Or, maybe your taxes have become lower and simpler, and you are just complaining because you do not like any change, even if it is from a complicated to a simpler tax system.
But then, I am just a red deplorable, how can I be smarter than a blue elite?
7
The taxes these residents are paying their states take the Federal government off the hook for many services, such as public transportation. These services are vital in high density areas. These states also have more poor. So they are an effective way of transferring wealth to the poor.
If these states lose this income the Federal government will end up paying for these services, so taxes in Texas will likely go up, not down. Also if property values go down in these states they will likely go down in others as well. Additionally many Texans have very high property taxes so they will also be on the losing end of this tax bill. This could cause their home values to go down as well.
We are all live in one country, and wreaking havoc in some states will only
hurt all of the others.
6
Yes you are.
Taxes are not punishment. Even you know that.
1
@Bemused
I agree with you on, "We all live in one country, and wrecking havoc in some states will only hurt all the others."
I am all for helping our poor, but have a problem when your local government siphons that money to sanctuary cities.
"...so taxes in Texas will likely go up"
Not likely. As of 2016, Fort Bend county had the highest property tax rate in Texas (2.41%), with median home value $183,600.
"Also if property values go down in these states, they will go down in others as well."
Not at all. When people move out because of high cost of living, where do they go? The property value in Dallas is going up mainly because of people from NY and CA moving here.
This is just the beginning of the unintended consequences of this stupid "tax" bill.
Dear Republicans: The next time you want to give money away to your donor masters, do us all a favor and just directly write them checks out of the U.S. Treasury.
It will be a lot less painful for the country.
12
I'm not sure they were unintended. But, since it was all stitched together behind closed doors, we'll never know.
1
This article focuses on the Blue States, but this bill must be upsetting a lot of urban/suburban Texas residents as well. Property taxes are typically 3 percent of home values, (often $20,000 or more), so many of the upper middle class residents who consistently vote Republican are going to lose a lot of their deductions as well. I expect this will also lower their home values.
14
Absolutely, but how many Times readers will acknowledge this or will acknowledge that taxes will in fact go down for those who need the funds to support their families. The answer is clear: they are single minded and have only one mission: to criticize Republicans without making an effort to understand anything.
2
Not even close to the pain of blue states where we pay significant income tax to fund a civilized society.
8
You're just saying that to put a smile on my face, aren't you? ;->
2
Audit them all.
3
How stupid. If you have your tax bill and it says it might be paid then you can if you want to. Mostly only the rich would have the money and ability to do this. I get my bill for the next year in October, I always have paid it soon even though you could pay in in the next year. Most have taxes paid through their mortgages.
1
I'm not rich and we managed to pay three months early. It's called budgeting. I've been super poor and lived paycheck to paycheck, but those were times when I didn't own a property that required me to set aside additional funds for taxes, repairs, and maintenance. Now that my husband and I own a home, we make sure to set aside $500 per pay period just for repairs and maintenance and taxes and insurance.
1
Common sense can tell you the less money a person has the less likely they will spend.In a consumer capitalist society the consumer needs to spend to have a growing economy without it there will probably be a long term recession in the US and possibly the world. This insane Republican law will make many Americans poorer and will shrink the national economy which includes both Red states and Blue State. Remember to hold Republicans responsible next November. Eating possum will not do.
16
My suggestion is beat them at the ballot box in 2018, beat them at the ballot box in 2020, and then cut the red states loose. They're on their own. No more money for road construction. No more money for education. No more money for any of those things they say they don't want that allow civilization. They can eat what they kill, no more. We'll see how that works.
17
Hey folks,
Recognize that we are overall getting a LOT more value for the taxes we pay than we realize. Eventually, we either have to pay the interest on the national debt, or default.
Either taxes need to go UP, and/or spending must come DOWN. At least this "reform" is an attempt at something! Let's see what actually happens next year. If you don't like it, then there is always your vote...
1
Yeah and name another ship the Titanic. What could possibly go wrong.
Doing the same thing again (lower richie riches’ taxes and expect we all gain) and again and again expecting a result different than Kansas. Insanity.
Yeah let’s see what happens. Actually now we have no choose. You’ve just made me an impeach now trooper.
Muchas gras.
5
President Trump has said (repeatedly, one way or another) that there is no virtue in paying more in taxes than the law requires. We are all fully entitled to take advantage of any provisions in the tax law that permit us to lower our tax obligations, just as he has done.
If you prepay your taxes and the deduction is eventually disallowed, you will have made an interest-free loan to your local community, of money you will otherwise have to pay in 2018 anyway. Is that really such a bad thing? And if the deduction is allowed, you will reduce your federal income tax. Sounds like a good gamble to me, if you have the cash available to do it.
5
For the people who apparently think all Californians are rich and and "taking" from the red states, here's my story: I have worked in Silicon Valley for 27 years, and earn a fairly modest salary. With the exception of 2 years, I have always claimed 0, and to be taxed at the higher single rate (even after I got married), and most years I have owed, although I always strive to just break even every year. In the mid-90s I was able to scrape enough money together to buy a 2b, 1 bath house, where my husband and I still live. My property taxes are relatively low, but only because I was lucky enough to buy a house right before the housing crisis. Many people I know are not so lucky, and it hurts to see other hard-working, average-earners like I am, stressing over this bill, and bracing for an uncertain tax future. This is another example of a president and congress who are who are carelessly and unnecessarily cruel to the people in their own country. To all those who are cheering this bill and the hardships being imposed on the middle class: ask yourselves why you are so spiteful to people who are most likely a lot like you, and just trying to make a decent living.
23
What is relatively low. I pay about 1200 per year, not say per month. Now my home is nice and worth about 100K about what I paid for it 30 years ago. I live in it, I don't think of it as an investment. I dislike the elimination of the personal exemptions, they should be reinstated.
2
You dont have to Iive in California- it is a privilege- you always have the option of moving to a cold, landlocked red state.
2
Thank you! Will you be funding my relocation and finding a new job for me, and my husband?
3
Because this is a Tax Bill we are all talking about the financial end of this law.
On the other side, not much is being said of the social/political implications of this so called "reform" of the tax bill, for a simple example: red/blue states...
There is so much wrong about this bill and so much more to come about we have not even read about in 1000 pages or their interpretation of them. Are they legal?,contradictory with current law or within itself?
(If the SCOTUS ruled that yes we can make the tax payer pay for a mandate for not joining the ACA, how can a Congress add amendment to a tax bill to say it no longer applies? So do we wait again for a Democratic Congress to then over turn this?)
1
@Jon W
Didn't SCOTUS rule that the mandate was a tax?
1
You must be totally ignorant. The court found a way to allow congress its law, now congress has eliminated it. You will no longer be punished for not having insurance meeting some criteria. You have choice in insurance, and you always could remain healthy and not require health care. Not to mention some health care is covered by other insurance. Like say car, homeowner, and business insurances.
The Shared Responsibility tax no longer applies, but the letter of the law still requires health insurance.
Shades of the Obamacare roll out! Knowing the ineptitude of those who wrote this law it can only get worse, not better, as they try to plug the holes in the dike they threw together in a couple of weeks.
3
One thing is clear. The new bill preserves, with little change, the carried interest loop hole, that allows fabulously wealthy financiers to pay income tax at a substantially lower rate compared to us "little people" (to borrow Leona Helmsley's notorious phrase).
In most (but by no means all) circumstances I characterize myself as a conservative and Republican. However, I cannot forgive the party leadership for preserving the carried interest provision.
15
Perhaps they will fix this, the president would appreciate that. I understand that the president can get the regulations changed to accomplish this, if so I hope he will do so.
2
Agree that the inability to get rid of that and make those bonuses taxable at regular income rates is very disappointing. I suppose the Wall Street lobby is stronger than we think - we know that at least is bipartisan.
Please read the NYT article today about inflated subway costs for just one example as to why property taxes in NY (and CT, CA, NJ, IL) are so high. As long as taxes were deductible there was no pressure to cut costs.
Also stop repeating the lies that 'red' states get more than their due from the Federal govt. Those figures include military bases and federally owned land as just two examples. The entire nation benefits from that spending.
9
I live in Alabama and I love the money that the Feds send us. We have a good deal, because we do not have to send very much to them. Keep the money coming.
7
Yet you are home to some military bases, and I bet provide more than your share to defending our country.
2
And , NB, inflated subway costs go toward funding Metro "engineers" (ie, drivers with high school degrees) salaries who can retire and afford to live in a $3million house in Rockland county.
Everybody should take a deep breath and get ready to wait. Laws aren’t what controls these sorts of things, *rules* do, and the rule making for the tax law has just begun. It’s gonna get bumpy, folks.
5
Only greedy people get angry about money.
1
All this, and THAT’S your takeaway??
4
We can, and must, fight the system, lest it swallow up and spit out every last honest taxpayer out there, while the rich laugh all the way to the bank, on their way to church.....
12
You have to admit that there is a bit of serendipity here...all these liberals who love high taxes are lined up to save money on taxes.
10
We oppose double taxation, which is what this cynical, partisan legislation means. If the Red states hate taxes so much, perhaps they should stop taking the lion's share of federal tax revenue. That is where the true hypocrisy lies.
16
I think these people already pay high taxes. I think they're trying to avoid double taxation; having the Federal goernment tax them on money they've already paid taxes on...
8
Double taxation??? That would be say taxing dividends, or the death tax.
2
Since there are Republicans in 'blue' states and Democrats in 'red' states, let's stop calling each other names and hating each other.
When we're reasonable we might be able to think of a solution to inequality in wages, taxes, education, and health care.
Thank you.
20
Thank you. The differences in blue states and red states is usually about 20% of the population, which is usually driven by racial demographics differences. I've lived in blue states and red states, have found it equally easy to find white hippy liberals and guns-and-money conservatives in both places. You can take any red state and if you replace 20% of the rural whites with urban educated whites and you get a similar demographic and political profile of a blue state like Minnesota; and if you take 20% of the urban educated whites in many blue states (Washington, Oregon, New York even) and replace them with 20% evangelical white christians, and you would have the political profile of Texas.
4
This is the beginning of the revelation that high tax States like NY and California will suffer disproportionately from the new tax bill because of the ridiculously high local & State taxes. Instead of complaining and issuing Executive Orders, Gov Cuomo & the State Legislature better get busy figuring out how to bring my down those insanely high taxes and it won’t be easy. For the sprawling monster that is NY State Govt and local county & city govt has a veracious appetite for your hard earned money. And the irony is that many NYers will simply change their residency as I will do but the poor average Joe who doesn’t have an alternative out-of-State address is stuck in the monster’s mouth.
9
and go running back when you are sick and old. That's what we see in Minnesota. They're in Florida and Texas until they need help, and then all of a sudden their Minnesotans again.
13
Same here in the northeast.
No - like many NYers I own a business in the State but also have an out-of-State address. I had avoided residency in the other State but will no longer do so. I didn’t make the rules but like everyone else, I will try to maximize the rules in my favor. That’s the American way!
While many hope the joke is on California, New York, New Jersey and Massachusetts; there is plenty more damage from this administration.
When the rest of the nation begins to see the ill-effects of eliminating Net Neutrality guidelines and your internet choices are almost nonexistent (unless you pay dearly); California is already working on legislation to make Net Neutrality a condition for cable franchise agreements and using our public right-of-way for internet infrastructure, and broadband.
As the fifth largest economy in the world, California pays lots of taxes but we also have what businesses crave; millions of consumers.
19
@Donna,
What does net neutrality have to do with paying property taxes?
3
According to KFF, CA's medicaid enrollment is 26% (WV is 29% and NM is 27%).
5
Oh, and Ohio's is 23%, so I have no idea what point you're trying to make. Also, undocumented workers pay state and local taxes, even if it's merely the sales tax--can't even hardly breathe out here in sunny CA without paying that one.
4
I have a hunch that the overworked, understaffed, frozen-salaried and demoralized IRS staff will be overwhelmed by a deluge of itemized 1099 returns with prepaid SALT claims that may be flagged and acted upon for overly excessive deductions, but put on the backburner for the vast majority of more reasonable claims. The latter will not come to the forefront as the new tax law takes hold next year and further buries the IRS and the tax courts in the red tape emerging from the unspecified and unforeseen consequences of the poorly written 2018 tax bill. My only concern would be the timeliness of refunds for those who overpaid their federal tax, which may be delayed indefinitely because of insufficient tax revenue floating into the treasury.
7
So all those people who have been clamoring to 'stick it to the rich', just rudely realized that THEY are the rich. Truck drivers in Montana and coal miners in Tennessee have for years been subsidizing Park Avenue lawyers and Greenwich hedge fund managers. Cancelling this 'welfare for the rich' makes sense and fully lines up with what Dems have been demanding for years. Of course, truth be told, the Dems meant the 'other' rich, not them - never them.
9
In actuality, if that matters to anyone, the "blue states" have long been subsidizing the lower taxing and poorer "red states", by getting back far less in services for the taxes sent to the Federal Government. The "red states" then are also getting far MORE in services than the taxes that THEY sent in to the Federal Government. It's an easily confirmed fact, and has been that fact for decades. States that want to invest in their infrastructure, schooling, and support for their citizens have actually long taken that burden OFF the Federal Government by some margin. And yet, we still abide by the extra needs of the other states of the union & allow our taxes to be disproportionately spent to support them.
This is aside from our collective wish (and need), both by truck drivers and miners in Montana AND middle and working classes in deep "blue" states to have a more progressive tax levied upon the truly wealthy of our country. Of course, this recent tax bill enacted the exact OPPOSITE of that wish and need, which Oakwood seems to be entirely oblivious to. Those folks lining up at state tax offices are clearly NOT "Park Avenue lawyers & hedge fund managers". They are WORKERS. But Oakwood just sees blue staters & liberals....and that is enough to trip his wires in snarling resentment. That's "rich enough" for him (or her).
You should really read this tax bill. It takes full soaking aim at WORKERS.
And it primarily feeds and fattens the richest of us all – both Blue AND Red.
10
Seriously? Do the people in this line look like the "rich" to you? These are hardworking people, many of whom , yes actually are truck drivers, and are living in very modest, small, old family homes. They've worked hard their whole lives and have paid off their 30 year mortgage, and yes, now their property taxes have risen to over $20,000 annually. I've lived in low cost states where folks with much lower incomes can easily afford to live in brand new spacious luxury homes with all the bells and whistles and low property taxes. And they're going to get a nice tax refund. Have a little compassion. Sheesh.
8
Why is everyone blaming the GOP for this last-minute chaos? Congress specifically denied the right to prepay, and the IRS has made it clear it may deny it as well.
It was the tax "advice" in the media and gestures like that of NYS Gov. Cuomo that spawned this chaos.
6
Wrong. Congress prohibited the prepayment of income taxes and said nothing about real estate taxes. In its usual thrust to sock it to the public, it is the IRS who took it on themselves to issue this memo which is not a law, just a memo. Ultimately, there is a very small chance of being audited and by then, hopefully some court will have interceded on behalf of sanity.
17
I opposed the tax bill and SALT limits, but it's a done deal and we need to move on. The IRS guidance was appropriate and necessary. It's really not that complicated: one cannot deduct taxes that have not been assessed, that is wishful thinking and is simply a cash advance to the local government. For localities with fiscal years that span the calendar year, it is not unusual to have two part tax bills (as in California, as one example) that the taxpayer can pay any time after it's issued in the third quarter after assessments are completed earlier in the year. I'm sure that are grey areas that are not this clear-cut, but it should come down to whether a 2017 payment is for a bill that has been issued, or is a sham payment of a cash advance to the local government that hasn't even got around to levying the tax.
IRS is not playing politics, just trying to provide needed guidance during this transition period. That said, shame on GOP leaders for failure to write a hard rule in the bill itself, just as they did with income taxes.
I hate many parts of this hastily written tax bill, but that's what elections are for.
14
It is a great irony of American governance that money is primarily earned and taxed in blue state cities, while federal funds are disproportionately spent in red rural areas. The people who benefit most from federal taxing and spending are the same people who elect representatives who most adamantly oppose it. I'm not sure this is politically sustainable. At some point, don't we have to see a blue state pivot? Blue state representatives may increasingly accept the concept of reductions in federal taxes and spending, while focusing more on an equitable distribution of federal spending in their states/districts. Blue states could then supplement any reduction in federal spending with regional benefits (perhaps even multi-state benefits provided by a coalition of blue states). I don't know exactly how this would play out. I suspect it would primarily involve reductions in Medicare/Medicaid benefits to the extent they are disproportionately consumed in red rural locations while blue states/cities offer supplemental healthcare funding on a local or regional basis. I'm no expert and I'm not saying this is right around the corner, but it just seems that something has got to give.
13
Just called my bank to put in a stop payment order on my prepayment check.
My situation is a grey area:
-Prepayment is permitted only in the amount of the 2017 tax bill which is tied to the 2017 assessed value. The final amount due in 2018 will be an upward or downward adjustment to the 2017 prepayment.
-My accountant's advice: the safe approach is *not* to prepay, because the prepayment amount is not based on the final 2018 assessment. Aggressive approach: argue to the IRS that the only permitted 2017 prepayment is based on the 2017 assessment and is therefore allowable.
-If prepayment is disallowed: you owe the amount of tax underpaid plus interest.
Disgusted that Republican members of the House and Senate have passed this dog's breakfast of a bill. It robs the middle class to pay the wealthiest. Hope that payback time will come in November 2018.
If Republicans in Congress were smart, they'd amend this bill in early 2018 to make it more palatable to middle income Americans. Restoring 100% SALT deductibility would be a great place to start.
11
The IRS does not have the resources to carry out more than a few audit, so your chances of being audited are very small. The reward to your pocketbook far outweighs the risk of owing a bit of interest.
4
You must have an unusual local government. Here we get one bill in October which must be paid by Feb. There is a scale. Try having that done in your government, it is very simple and I have always paid in the current year for next year.
I was jumping at the chance but didn’t have the cash. Hoped to use my Credit card but a no go in Montgomery County, MD. Then looked at last year’s tax returns, preparedness by an accountant, only to discover the deduction for being over 65 made the tax thing non-essential. Sigh!
2
The laugh is on the blue states: the gray train for spending and no accountability is over. The rich are complaining as the average person in the tri-state area is not the norm nor ever has been the norm. The nation does not want to subsidize the Northeast; is anyone surprised?
8
No the laugh is on you: red states are the taker states, the states that get more from the Federal Government then they send back to Washington. We will begin to rectify that on November 6, 2018, when we begin consigning the Republican Criminal organization to the ash heap of history.
Constitutional Amendment: No state receives not one cent more from the Federal Government than they send to the Federal Government in taxes. As Republicans are fond of saying: Pull yourself up by your own bootstraps.
27
The Northeast subsidizes the rest of the US. We pay far more in federal income and other taxes than we receive back in fund from the government. It is the reverse for the southern and western states, especially for the state that the odious Mick Mulvaney represented.
24
Jan, why are you so gleeful? It's the other way around, and you, as a NJ resident, are subsidizing red states. The joke is on you.
9
People will pay to live in NYC. As many foreigners park money in real estate for safety and appreciation, our tax plans do not concern them.
1
The Progressive states will now pay their own way for their waste of tax dollars. If you don't like actually paying for your "ideals" then move to a Rational state where an individual's money is valued and respected. I am tired of Progressives spending other people's money and being proud of their "Humanity", now you can put up or shut up.
10
Quite a joke coming from Kansas, the state which has shown the fallacy of Trickle Down and is almost bankrupt!
The Northeast subsidizes the rest of the US. We pay far more in federal income and other taxes than we receive back in fund from the government. It is the reverse for the southern and western states, especially for the state that the odious Mick Mulvaney represented, and Kansas.
You are spending my money!
10
Frank, the progressive states on the coasts are actually supporting you in the Midwest and have done for some time. We progressives have been subsidizing your lives for some time now, paying more than our share so that you can continue to live the life to which you have become accustomed. We have been putting up for decades. Perhaps it is time states like Kansas start showing some appreciation to the states that support your welfare and get nothing but disdain in return.
14
If you consider roads and bridge repair "wasteful progressive spending," then I hope you drive into a pothole that was ignored by your right wing government officials. Blue states send significantly more money to Washington than red states do.
15
Thank God I turned myself into a corporation and did a quick Deed of our house to the corporation which allows me to deduct the taxes and mortgage interest on the corporate side as an asset.
18
This is going to hit individuals who have rental property: Ordinary people who've worked hard and have several rental homes or even a duplex. Many mom & pop property owners do not have their property in an LLC. There are many aspect to this tax bill that remain unknown. The biggest fallacy is believing it will *only* hit those in Blue States. A lot of heartache is on the proverbial horizon.
3
Those mom and pop investors will create millions of LLCs and then discover all of the loopholes and deductions open to them as a result of their “small business”. Pour the champagne- it will be good for them - not so for the rest of us. That is when the treasury will plummet and congress will rob us all of our medicare and social security.
10
I find it hard to believe that all of these people earn below the AMT and have more deductions than the new standard deduction of $24,000. I didn’t have any deductions before I married and after I married, we earned too much to deduct anything due to the AMT.
What can you do?
Max out your 401K. That’s $18K per person. If over 50, do the catch-up for $6K too. It sounds like a lot but you wont feel it as much as it lowers your rate.
Max out your HSA - if you can afford it, don’t touch it and use it for medical expenses in retirement - which can be drawn down with no taxes
Need dental and glasses? Use the FSA as well - just spend it by year end -
Those are my options - if it doesn’t come out of my paycheck - it is not eligible for a deduction. We pay and pay and pay. I don’t mind paying my fair share - I just wish those dollars stayed in my state.
#vote out Rodney Frelinghuysen
12
The red states, with their low tax rates, low spending on their kids, leading to low human potential, low self image, low expectations of their low politicians and low quality of life, have been relying on the blue state tax tit forever.
Search the facts.
Why can't y'all get your human act together?
Realize you got to tax your own in-state wealth and spend on your seed corn - your kids!
That's how life is. Get it?
Pull your own weight.
33
George Washington and other founding fathers and many many past leaders attended schools that were no more than shacks or were home schooled. No need to spend billions on the teachers' unions for good education.
2
Pay for your own property taxes. If you like your schools, municipalities, etc., pay for them fully.
Democrats have a chance to put their money where their mouths are, and suddenly their mouths are saying something entirely different.
3
To AACNY-
Glad we agree.
The red states should ABSOLUTELY pay their own property taxes for schools and services.
Instead of mooching off the productive people in the blue states.
Like I said, pull your own weight.
2
Superficially, Cuomo's plan sounds very populist, batting for the beleaguered homeowner, but in reality it helps the wealthier households.
Let's say, for example, someone has $20,000 mortgage interest and $12,000 property taxes ("reference person"). Typically, first installment of property tax ($6,000) is paid in end (Dec) of current year, and second installment paid by middle of next year. So, if this person prepays $6,000 this year, next year he'll take standard deduction of $24,000 (joint filer) because that's better than itemizing for just $20,000 of mortage interest. So, the total deduction value is $6,000 + $24,000 = $30,000. On the other hand, if didn't prepay, next year he'd be itemizing for $20k mortgage +$10k property max, which would be the same $30k benefit as going through the prepayment rigmarole, i.e., need not bother with prepay. BUT, if will be benefit anyone above the reference person's economic level. For example, for a wealthy person, with say $40,000 in mortgage interest and $25,000 in property taxes, without prepay, next year's benefit would be $40k + $10k max = $50k deduction, whereas with prepay of $20k, total benefit will be $20k (from this year) + ($40k + $10k next year) = $70k total deduction.
I'm sure Cuomo meant well, like most political actions, they appear to benefit the lower income scale, while actually benefiting the upper income scale, and both parties are complicit.
1
For those of us upstate who barely have enough deductions to itemize now and pay $3500 in taxes, starting in 2018 we will never be able to deduct our property taxes because we'll be below the new threshold for itemizing. So the Governor's executive order could help us on our 2017 taxes, the last time we'll be itemizing until actual tax reform is passed. If it helps the wealthy or those living in Westchester, NYC or Long Island more, so be it - I'm still happy Cuomo did something to mitigate the effects of the Trump/GOP tax atrocity a little bit.
9
The $10,000 limit includes state income taxes as well - it is highly unlikely that anyone paying $12,000 in real estate taxes wouldn't have enough state income taxes (certainly at NY rates) to exceed the limit every year.
3
Okay, forgot to take into account the state income taxes, which means the benefit/no benefit cutoff point moves lower down the economic scale. But, my larger point still stands. The loophole inordinately benefits the wealthy, only marginally helps those at the border of standard deduction, and does not help those below that level (in fact, may even hurt them because they are likely to less disposable income and borrowing to prepay and incur interest charges later). Many of those people standing on lines are innocently caught in the process with no benefit and potential harm. It'd have been better if Congress explicitly prevented prepay, because we would have then reconciled for what it is and just moved on, but now that we find the loophole, we all feel like trying to take it, with some innocents caught in it in the process.
1
I recently touched base with my accountant, a Republican, who lives in a conservative bastion in Westchester County, NY, and pays over $20,000 in property taxes a year. I asked him (somewhat rhetorically) whether he would be impacted by the new tax bill. He answered, "Well, everybody will get something from it." Noting he chose to avoid saying his tax bill would escalate, I changed the subject - if only to avoid a repeat of past, acrimonious exchanges between us. Seems there are some who, through party loyalty, don't mind the additional tax burden.
3
If you're having acrimonious exchanges with your accountant, it's time to make a change.
14
He's right. First, most Americans will see their tax brackets reduced. The AMT will have a higher threshold so more upper middle class families will avoid it. Finally, families will get a $2K per child credit, which is double what it was and now includes a $1400 refund.
1
Good advice. Actually I know him personally and he's been my accountant for over three decades. We do disagree politically but our 'exchanges' don't color our professional relationship. Perhaps 'acrimonious' is too strong a word. Thanks!
Gee, I really hope these rich people didn’t lose a tiny fraction of their income by trying to save a tiny fraction of their income. (Let alone wealth, of course.) Cuz that’d be just horrible if these rich people get punished for early-adopting advice based on a bill no one’s read or absorbed yet, including all those who voted for it. It’s hard to imagine a worse effect of this awful tax bill on any cohort in the country than poor rich people who might be out a few sushi dinners.
9
Do commenters really think anger in NY/NJ/CA over inability to deduct the huge taxes we pay is going to cost Trump. Trump is not counting on any votes from those states. What do you think people in Trump States think about the last guy in the article complaining about not being able to deduct his $30,000 property tax bill on his mansion?
10
This isn't just a NY/NJ/CA issue - I lose over half my state and local tax deduction under the bill, and my MO property taxes are under $5,000. It doesn't take a lot of state income tax to exceed the limit.
10
The same thing will happen to Wisconsin taxpayers and Trump and Paul Ryan need to keep a plurality of them on his side.
1
They are inside the bubble and believe the entire country is as incensed as they are. They don't realize that only 1/3 of all taxpayers even itemize, and even fewer will do so now with the higher standard deduction.
3
"The I.R.S. called into question a strategy of prepaying property taxes before the new tax law goes into effect, sending homeowners into a spiral of anxiety, rage and frustration."
Those folks need to remember who perpetrated this mess on them. Trump and the republican congress did this. The Democrats had no part in this tax bill because the republicans would not allow them to have any part in it's writing nor it's passing which is exactly what they wanted per remarks by Paul Ryan and Mitch McConnell. The republicans wanted to pass this bill without a single Democrat's vote for it and that is exactly what they got.
So folks, this unnecessary chaos is all republican. There will be more to come between now and the Mid-Term Election this coming November 2018.
12
Professor Herzig, my approach is to fill out the identification portion of my tax return, sign it, and attach a note telling the IRS to figure out what I owe and send me the bill. Then let the IRS audit figure it out for you.
8
I hope this backfires. Thank you.
5
It's time for some civil disobedience from the lower middle class and middle class who are being economically kicked in the butts by Trump and his bunch of G.O.P. sycophants. The tax bill is just another symbol of the political illness which has settled upon America.
And now, how can I short-pay my federal taxes to account for Trump's outrageous use of taxpayer money to vacation and play golf weekly at his distant private homes, clubs, and resorts? Shouldn't he be paying for those frequent jaunts himself? Or better yet, publish in the Federal Register continually updated summaries of the fully-burdened costs for all travel and security expenses related to those trips, and have the IRS declare that they are taxable income.
12
I just realized that since we have never seen Trump's tax returns, we have no idea if he has ever given a dime to charity. I have never seen his name as a donor to anything. He probably gets out of property taxes too somehow.
12
You know what makes me profoundly sad? When did the red states declare war on us? And why?
What exactly is so odious about liberals? That we want to lower income inequality? That we believe in opportunity? Facts? Education? That we prefer logic vs emotion, facts vs propaganda?
It really breaks my heart to see commenters on this thread say things like "you wanted this". Whatever happened to principles? Fairness? Unity?
Whatever. 2018 will be here soon.
28
Sounds like a good way to lower income inequality would be to tax the wealthiest states (CA, NY, CT, NJ) and give to the poorer Red states, no?
3
Well , sure, and make sure you tax the wealthiest people in those states more and make sure the redistribution is to the poorest people in the "poor" states. Hmmm, why do I think that is not what is going to happen? Of course those wealthy states are already subsidizing programs to assist those in the "poorer Red states" anyway.
1
Because you called us all Racist Deplorables when we are in fact American as we were meant to be. We work and plan and care for each other. I voted for Hillary but will vote for Trump if he runs again. He understands American values as they should be rather than as "Hollywood" thinks it should be.
3
That's great....folks who planned to save a little more of their hard earned money by waiting in line at their local tax offices to pre-pay their 2018 property tax get shafted by a hastily written policy memo from IRS.
Mnuchin and Trump probably joked about making these folks scramble like this only to get shafted - while they ate caviar and drank champagne while toasting the town Christmas day.
What really gets under my craw with this hodgepodge of a tax bill that Trump signed before heading off to Florida for a week or more of golf is the exemption for real estate investors and hotel operators that caps the amount of interest expenses businesses can deduct.
How this particular exemption arose and made it into the final bill is anyone's guess. Why that particular sector of the economy, a sector Trump and his family have 90+% of their money in, gets exempted from this cap on interest deduction and not other sectors of the economy is particularly troubling. This sector, albeit significant in its own right, is only a small portion of our total economy.
Why exempt this sector, this particular sector? Huh, McConnell, Mnuchin, Ryan and Trump? Why???
Maybe major news entities can dig this up and report on it, front page, for weeks....
10
The only pleasure I get out of this tax bill, which will cost me a lot more in taxes, is going to be seeing the faces of the blue collar idiots, both down south and even in blue states, when the cost of this hits them. Old people who thought that the 24k in the couple exemption were going to make their day are going to see that backfire when the government slashes SS and Medicare. The red state people, who will think that extra money is gonna make them rich, are going to find out the cost when they don't have health care, when they slash federal spending to the states for roads and schools and the like because of soaring budget deficits, and then the rudest awakening of all, when the tax giveaway to the corporations, instead of creating new jobs and increasing wages, only goes to rewarding mostly wealthy investors in the form of higher stock prices and dividend increases thanks to the flood of cash (sorry, boobs, companies have already come out and said most of the money they are going to save is going to go to dividends and stock repurchases). The red state morons might be chortling with glee, or figure out now "all them good paying jobs gonna come to Crackersville, and people gonna move here and main street is gonna be like the 1950's", but in the end they are living a fantasy, too, there are reasons why rural areas and the industrial towns died, and this won't cure that.
14
Or we could continue down your ideal path and continue our spiral into a third world country.
1
You live in Kansas. You can thank your state legislature for sending you to third world country status. Our infrastructure in the tri-state area is decidedly not first world. Want to know why? Because we send all of our money to pay for unnecessary wars overseas. Oh yes, and to subsidize red states.
5
I can't believe it took this tax bill for people with outrageous tax bills to question what localities are doing with the money. Fairfax County has high tax bills. For the decades the waste and fat in the budget is astounding. ($30K for a marble conference table for the board of supervisors, a business development office in London, schools and other buildings are built as expensively as possible) But when ever someone suggest examining the budget the old talking points of we'll have to cut police and firefight fighters come outs.
13
Cuomo, our crafty governor in NYS, tried to trick everyone into thinking he was actually doing something about the loss of real estate deductions. We'll probably see many such gestures as democratic leaders in these states try to deflect anger away themselves onto the GOP.
4
They need to get all public sector employees on a 401k--no more defined pensions. They are not special on my dime.
4
Is this all going on because of the substantial tax cuts to the middle class? Laughing out loud.
Here in the reddest county in the bluest state, this bill is a tax hike. With the median housing at 795k and median income at 89k, we’re easy marks to Trump and the GOP.
Our Congesswoman, Mimi Walters, is going to be facing a lot of questions ahead. Including why she supported taxing her constituents on taxes they’ve already paid.
13
It seems to me that for those residents of states where the taxes are assessed fairly early in the previous year, they can easily get by with prepaying. For example, if the tax assessment was made in July 2017 for the fiscal year 2017-2018, and residents were told they could prepay. Then they could get away with paying for half the year, at least.
4
My father, a corporate attorney, tried to negotiate with the INS on behalf of an employee who had fled Hungary without a visa in 1957. The bureaucrat across the table said this:
"Mr. Jeff, in my 30 years of government service I have learned this one thing - the best way to get rid of a bad law is to enforce it."
Thus we will learn over time what a bundle of mistakes this tax bill really is.
16
I'm one of the few(?) millennial 'homeowners' in Virginia. The only way this was possible was because I'm a veteran and used my VA loan; otherwise home ownership (especially in the DC suburbs) would be beyond my grasp for a lifetime. As it is, even with a comfortably middle-class salary, my mortgage payment eats up nearly half of my paycheck each month (and trust me, I'm not living in a mansion or eating avocado toast...). And the taxes on it just keep going up, and up, and up... So count me among the growing ranks of millennials disillusioned with home ownership. The tax break was the only reason I don't sell and go back to renting.
Sure, I'm a Democratic voting liberal who believes in Oliver Wendell Holmes' quote "I like to pay taxes. With them, I buy civilization.” But this, as other commentators have said, is a scam. I gladly pay taxes for better infrastructure, great schools, health care, and public services to build better communities. But I don't understand why people already at their financial limits are being asked to pay taxes on taxes they've already paid. And by a party that says they champion the middle class and preach tax cuts? And, while I'm at it, has no one explained "guns or butter" economics to the GOP, who are surging more troops to two endless conflicts, and chomping at the bit to start another (North Korea)?
Look at that picture that accompanies this article. Elders, middle class standing in line at the tax man's door. How is this #MAGA again?
38
You're not alone. My neighbor who moved from Seattle to San Francisco and now to Atlanta sold her west coast home and is not planning on owning again. She found the rise and plunge and rise too vertiginous an experience. Like the rising generation that thinks automobiles are a time and money sink, home ownership is another good think made suck-y. Keep alienating the young, policy makers. They're the majority now.
9
Instead of the taxes going towards those very important things you mentioned, the very rich and big corporations will benefit after already making record wages and profits. The GOP is a criminal enterprise now.
7
Oregon and Washington just jointly junked a plan to build a new bridge across the Columbia River linking Portland and Vancouver, after millions spent on planning, ironically due mainly to rural WA representatives not wanting to fund a light rail terminal on their side. One thing learned in the process was that the number of people in all age groups who not only do not own cars but who do not even have drivers licenses has been rising steadily for 30 years.
2
Texas has some of the highest property taxes in the nation. Our tax assessors are all accepting early payments of 2018 taxes. But no one knows what will happen. Thanks, GOP, for another poorly thought out strategy.
16
If the taxes haven't been assessed and billed yet, you can "prepay" them but you can't deduct it in 2017. The Assessor, though, will be more than happy to take it in though, thank you very much.
2
NJ has the highest property taxes in the country. However, to prepay property taxes in NJ, you first need to know if your property has been re-evaluated and its reassessed value in order to have an idea of what your taxes will be.
This so called tax reform bill is going to do one thing: Since the GOP insists states must pay for state needs out of state taxes and still flush money to Republican states who get an average of $1.35 up to $1.87 for the $1 they pay in federal taxes, while Dem states make due with 55 for every $1 paid, why bother to send ANY federal taxes out of state revenue?
Why should any Dem state be the sole support of GOP states all while our states try to compensate with the highest taxes in the country?
And, in most Dem states, we already pay state income taxes. Why bother to pay for federal income taxes when Ryan is planning the biggest heist of tax revenues in US history?
Most CPAs and accounting managers know that state revenues are held in state treasuries until it is dispersed to the fed. Why not just keep all that money and use it for SS, Medicare and Medicaid which these states pay on a state basis anyway? Why hand one dime more to the GOP to lavish ONLY on their states?
Cut them off until the GOP Majority stops bleeding Dem states dry.
5
Why are you blaming Congress? It denied the prepayment most likely to avoid this chaos. Democrats like NYS Governor Cuomo only exacerbated the problem with his Executive Order. Wouldn't be surprised if it was intentional to create angry constituents and hope they, like you, blame the GOP.
2
Many states such as the one that I live in, have a fiscal year for dealing with property taxes, say fiscal year 2018, that runs from July 1, 2017 to June 30, 2018. You receive two bills for property taxes at some point in the July 1, 2017 to December 31, 2017. You receive two more tax bills in the January 1, 2018 to June 30, 2018 time frame, usually in February 2018 and May 2018. When you file your 2017 taxes, you can prepay the two tax bills fromJanuary 1, 2018 to June 30, 2018 taxes if your local county or town has the bill prepared for you before the end of 2017.
Basically, if you have received the bill before the end of 2017, you can pay it and claim the deduction on your 2017 taxes. Most counties and local governments, do not have the tax bills created yet for fiscal year 2019 (July 1, 2018 to June 30 2019. It has to do with assessed values of home, rate changes, etc.
8
So the ultimate irony of all of this will play out as a fiscal nightmare. Republicans were determined to deliver on a promise they made to corporate America and the 10%ers. So they passed this bill without thought or planning to the implementation. Wonder how much overtime pay and additional staff will be needed to process returns this year. Wonder how many tax attorneys will be needed to determine what are/aren't legitimate deductions or financial planning strategies. In the end Trump and the mindless puppets in the Leg have really made America great, for sure. In the end, the US will be more in debt than ever and the rest of us will have to find one more way to slice the roast thinner.
9
What a strange quote from tax lawyer David Herzig.
2
I honestly find it astounding that the GOP did this....... It's the same sort of head scratching I do whenever I see blatant self destructive behavior. You want to scream, WHY? Why and do something that so will permanently harm you?
Because, let me tell you something: I have NEVER seen a party do such a thorough job of disenfranchising it's base! In NJ, where I live, there were many people in my town who voted for Trump. Despite the racism and the misogyny, they rationalized that he would cut their taxes.
Well. Talk about egg on your face.
Have you ever seen an entitled rich person wiping yolk off their face? They don't exactly get over the humiliation particularly quickly.
I can understand Trump destroying the party; he cares nothing about anyone but himself. I can understand Ryan and Mitchell wanting to give a tax break to their donor base, and I can even understand the drive to lower the corporate tax rate (like Obama wanted to do.)
What I cannot understand is how they could do it so brazenly on the back of the sort of WASP Republicans that held their nose and voted for them year after year, because of taxes. They will never forgive any of this.
And perhaps on it's own, that doesn't matter. But the GOP has enraged Hispanics. Women. LGBTQ. African Americans. Indian Americans. Asian American. Muslims.
.....and though they don't know it, they have also made a mockery of the working poor white people who put them there. I guess they are next.
Oh wait. Healthcare.
23
What is surprising about Republicans and their Plantation mentalities where they get to make all the rules while the free (we're nearly there) slave labor does all the dirty work and earns all the profits so the GOP Big Daddies can live high on the hog?
This entire so called tax reform bill is based on a lie. When the GOP whined that US corporations pay the highest corporate tax rate, they very sneakily omitted that US Corporations also get trillions every year in tax cuts, tax exemptions and loopholes that reduce what they pay in taxes BEFORE they even pay them.
4
I imagine that the high tax states will send fewer and fewer Republicans to represent them in the House and the Senate.
How about we start that trend in November 2018, and then keep it rolling for several more election cycles.
Here in Massachusetts we have no Republicans at all in our Congressional delection of 9 in the House and 2 in the Senate. Connecticut is in the same situation.
In CA there are 14 Republicans in the House.
In NY there are 9 Repiblicans in the House.
In NJ there are 7 Republicans in the House.
In IL there are 7 Republicans in the House.
In WA there are 4 Republicans in the House.
All of those states have 2 Democratic Senators.
Right there you have 41 Republican seats which are on the ballot in November 2018, more than enough to flip the House.
Let's get with the program, people.
Vote the Republican bums OUT in November 2018.
36
Great plan......oh....gerrymandering allows idiots like Nunez to win in safe seats. I hope I am proven wrong.....go for it!
4
We've got one in Virginia we're going to oust. Barbara Comstock.
5
Welcome to the chaotic world of Donald Trump and his Republican party!
7
Those who are happy re this tax bill (i.e. the trump base) don't have property taxes above $10K year because trailer parks properties are below that limit. They are certainly no affected by this tax bill and they will keep voting the way they did in 2016. It's time for the blue states to start thinking about letting go of the red welfare states. See how they fare on their own...
17
But this is only Act I. When health insurance prices start to go through the roof and the real objectives of the GOP agenda (entitlements) start to appear on stage, his base will be affected. Question appears to be 'will they realize they have been screwed' or will they continue to defend him at their own demise?
2
What an elitist thing to write. The average property tax is $3,500 in the US. Are they all in trailer parks?
2
And yet with property tax of $1300 a year I live in a Metropolitan area of 500,000 people in a 2000 sq ft house on 1/3 acre and paid my house off years ago because it only cost $100.000. What you progressives don't get is it is you who live like rats at the whim of regulations and taxes that destroy your quality of life.
This just shows how hypocritical Dems are...shouting "tax the rich", but when the tax man comes to the wealthiest states (CA, CT, NY, NJ) they scream "not me!". Its all just political theater. Curious, if we had a Dem president who wanted to raise taxes...where exactly do you think those increased taxes would come from?!
11
How about get off the Dem State Gravy Train? My state gets 55 cents for every $1 we pay in taxes. Your states get $1.35 to $1.87. Time to stop the lying and grifter double talk.
If our state taxes are high, it's because your states are living off our state tax revenues.
8
This tax break confers the greatest benefits, by far, to the wealthiest 1%, who, because of previous GOP tax policy, already pay a smaller % of their income than the average American. It's true that the Blue states subsidize the red states in terms of federal dollars, but does that mean they should be doubly punished?
1
I've seen several comments here, and elsewhere, from readers saying they would be okay with the taxes IF they were going toward things such as health care or decreasing the deficit instead of, say, being specifically earmarked to INCREASE the deficit.
5
The power is at the ballot box. We have to vote the clowns who voted for the tax bill out of office. This is the only way to send a message.
8
Many view the elimination of the SALT deduction as double taxation, because it is. But even more than that, it is taxation without representation. The red states are so over-represented in the senate that it make a joke of the Great Compromise. Our founding fathers enacted this concept giving equal representation to all states in the Senate never thinking it would lead to the tyranny by the minority. They probably thought future senators would do what is right for ALL the American people, not just for themselves.
12
If the Feds disallowing all the previous deductions for SALT is "double taxation", why are you OK with NYS taxing you on your Adjusted Gross Income? After all, your AGI is before the Feds take their bite of the apple. Under your logic, NYS should only tax you on your AGI minus Federal taxes paid. Call Cuomo and request this change....he has the power to lower your state taxes with a friendly Legislature. Problem solved...no "double taxation".
Governor Cuomo made a big deal of signing his Executive Order. What he failed to do was actually make sure people could, in fact, pay them early. Warrants from the State are required, and they're not available.
In essence, Cuomo's big gesture was purely to defy Trump, something that passes for legitimate behavior now.
3
In much of the state they are available. I know of 2 upstate counties that normally send bills in early January, due at the end of January or in February, for a January to December tax year. The warrants were already being prepared or ready for mailing. Many county and local governments have worked to make sure they're available to those who want to pay early. My county executive worked to make sure towns had their warrants in time. My town got theirs the Friday before Christmas.
I went to my town hall yesterday (after trying on Tuesday and finding it was still closed for Christmas) and had them print my bill, and paid it, and now have that bill stamped PAID. I presume I may be receiving the original bill in the mail within the next week.
In my case I expect this is all according to the guidelines the IRS gave on Wednesday. I expect I will be able to deduct this on my 2017 return. And I expect I would not be able to on my 2018 return, due to the cap.
3
And by the way, we're taking names. In alphabetical order: Republicans, Trump. I think that does it.
9
The sun will come out tomorrow
Our Country is a democracy and bad government decisions will only help to make this changes for only a short time.
I do hope that in the future the people will realize that voting is not a commodity, should be an obligation.
4
Of course you can't pre-pay 2018 taxes. You can't pre-pay and deduct medical expenses. You can't pre-pay and deduct charitable contributions that you plan to pay next year. Of course you can't. People who are getting mad are clearly folks who have paid tax preparers and haven't thought this through. The only expenses you can deduct on your 2017 tax returns are expenses billed and paid for in 2017.
7
In many states you get a tax bill, split, with half due in 2017 half in 2018. One can pay the whole tax bill in 2017.
5
Not true. Tax advisors have advised forever the strategy of making extra mortgage payments before the end of the calendar year to pull the deduction up into the current tax year. In my town, we get our property tax bills mid-year. These bills cover the last two quarters of the current calendar year and the first two quarters of the following calendar year. There is no reason why you can't pre-pay those first two quarters of 2018 in 2017 since you already have the bill. Any changes to the assessment in 2018 are handled in the tax bill you get for the last two quarters.
1
If you have a bill, you can pay it. In California, the 2017 taxes have two payments, one that is late in December, the second that is late in April. It is my understanding that you can pay and deduct both halves in 2017. What you can't do is deduct 2018 taxes in 2017. First of all, in most cases, you have no idea what they will be.
1
Midterms are coming.
17
Yup, and when people start to see their increased paychecks because of the lower tax brackets, the GOP will crush it.
4
All of us can only hope this tax bill hits hard at the people that voted Trump in to office. When their pockets have been picked clean, maybe they'll change their minds. One thing is certain, Trump will not be a two term president. People are fed up with him. his snake oil salesmanship is coming to an end. There really is a special place in hell for guys like Trump and Ryan and Orrin Hatch.
16
Unless of course our election system is tampered with. I'm of the belief that since no actual forensics were performed on the last election, we don't know the full extent of what really happened last year.
https://www.npr.org/2017/07/20/538312605/the-insecurity-of-americas-old-...
". . . And we also can't rule out that elections haven't already been manipulated in this way. We just don't have the capabilities, in many cases, to do forensic analysis of the machines. And we don't have the will, in many cases, to examine that. So when you see statements from election officials and from the federal government saying that there's no evidence that the votes were changed or that the voting systems were hacked, it has to be done with the caveat that, actually, no one really looked."
8
Prepay to escrow account, take the deduction. If the IRS audits, scream discrimination. Be like Trump.
14
Wow! The NYT saying that Cuomo was “egging on” his resudents to Pay their property taxes early, in spite of the IRS advisory. Yes, Mario is a progressive and page 4 of their play book is to bend and even break the law! Way to go, Mario. More votes from libs for you!
3
What year are you in? The governor's name is Andrew.
Are you paying taxes? "Only the little people pay taxes." Leona Helmsley
Only members of the royal court, corporations, pass-thru partnerships and of course Trump's real estate roulette ventures, were granted Dear Leader's gift to itemize their full state and local property taxes. Only members of the royal court, the wealthy, will establish one of their residences, for tax purposes where there are no property taxes, or income taxes. Only the royal court was granted permanent tax relief.
The little people (AKA serfs) need to suck it up. Something they have been doing for decades. Take comfort little people, in the alternate fact that Dear Leader and his royal court did this for you. The little people are getting the greatest tax cut in history; the royal court is not getting any tax cut! Dear Leader said so.
12
As our Republican counterparts like to say “You can’t pick winners and losers............. hah,ha looser!!”
2020 wont be funny for those who spend my money.
4
Irony of Ironies:
Republican tax bill increasing the taxes on the rich, Democrat Cuomo generates a loop hole to help the rich escape the increase, and the IRS steps in to close it.
The world is upside down. Republicans tax the rich, Democrats oppose
If Cuomo really wanted to help he would stop loading counties with unfunded mandates from Albany that drives property taxes sky high in NY State.
5
I don’t feel sorry for anyone in this country. All of you voters voted for Donald trump so now you live with all of the consequences. There’s lots more to come voters.
9
Most Americans will get a tax break.
4
@AACNY: Is that like those late-night commercials were everything costs $19.99 and you get one free if you spend $39.99 in shipping and handling costs?
1
“All you voters?” You mean other than the majority of voters who didn’t vote for Donald Trump...
4
We home owners in California are incensed. Between our high property and state taxes, a substantial portion of our income will now be double-taxed. Meanwhile, we get two whole senators for a state with 40 million residents. Same as Alabama, Rhode Island, Arkansas... all states with a smaller population than any one of our biggest cities.
We are 9% of the national population who pays 20% of the country's taxes. Now we're going to pay even more.
We have 11 Republican congressmen who voted for this bill. We are going to vote them out. I live in a district with a democratic congressman who is safe, so guess where all my campaign donations are going this year? Target. Every. Republican. Congressman. SO many people I know are gearing up to do the same. Those are the consequences for betraying the people who elected you into office, traitors.
Red state republicans who are having a good laugh at this, go ahead. While you leech off of us, we're going to remember this. Secession used to seem ridiculous. Not anymore. We are the 6th largest economy in the world. How will America do without us? Maybe we'll soon find out.
America needs California a lot more than we need America. We'd do just fine on our own. We have everything we need here. And it would be nice to keep all of that tax money we're giving away to the red welfare states.
Taxation without representation. California shoulders the largest burden by far. And we've had it.
48
I for one can only hope CA succeeds. Please go soon.
1
sure, and then Ohio, the opiod capitol of the US. will reign supreme. Not.
1
When Paul Ryan smugly tells America how the “average family”will save X dollars from this new tax legislation, we already know that he is using deceptive numbers that apply only to the first few years—before the rates go back up. But do those GOP talking points balance the small reductions in taxes with the increases that many average families will pay for losing SALT deductions? My guess is that the “average family” lives in a red state.
Secondly, because the vast percentage of average families will now be filing with a standard deduction, charitable donations will be no longer be eligible for tax deductions. Those families with higher incomes will itemize their deductions and still take the tax benefit of any charitable deduction. Overall, this will devastate many charities and is one of many unintended consequences of the new legislation.
It’s so clear that in the reckless, headlong rush to get this legislation passed, the GOP took their marching orders from their donors and from the lobbyists for corporate America. Further enriching the already rich is clearly an intended consequence of this legislation.
19
Even though some Republican congressmen or women in blue states voted no on this heinous tax bill please remember when voting in 2018 that their election will allow a Republican majority to continue in the House and will allow them to set the agenda. Vote them out even though they voted against the bill!
14
What what are the chances the IRS will narrow loopholes that favor corporations, hedge fund managers and real estate developers? Not a chance in this world of that happening. But sticking it to the average citizen is no problem. And the fools that passed this tax bill were worried about how much allowing prepayment of property tax would cost the treasury. Just one more piece of evidence that Congressional Republicans do not work for the people of this country, but for those who pay to keep them in office. America is on the road to destruction if this doesn’t change.
8
so much for the Democrats wanting to tax the rich.
6
My taxes will increase dramatically because of this immoral tax bill. Now I will have to cut down on my daily expenses and this will have a negative effect on my local economy and all this so corporations and super wealthy people can hoard more money. Not to mention my increased taxes will go to pay the added interest we will have because of the trillion and a half increase in the national debt. Unconscionable! Vote the GOP out in 2018!
17
I can assure that out in the real world no one is crying for you. Average property taxes in the US are about $3,500.
1
Either you pay now or you pay later. Either way, you pay. Just like national debt, you can add it and bear no consequence. But sooner or later, your future generations will pay for the debt you accumulate. As I said before, the Republicans are cold and heartless. The Democrats are selfish and aimless. We should vote for individual candidate regardless of party line. It makes a difference eventually.
We need to call the enemy by its name.
Radical Republicanism.
Say it.
Write it.
Defeat it.
18
I thought these people liked to pay higher taxes for all their social policy ideas. Rushing to pay your taxes makes you look greedy. Don't you want to share your money with other less fortunate people than you? I mean this what you preach all day long.
7
Just a quibble from this retired accountant: For income taxes, individuals are a quasi cash basis of accounting for most items. For example, you can't deduct an otherwise deductible expense unless you actually pay it. It's a crude but simple, convent and appropriate, method especially for non accountants.
By disallowing the tax prepayment rule, Congress and the IRS made an exception to that general principle, apparently out of spite. They can do this of course. The write the laws, not accountants. But it was mean spirited, and an outrage, coming after they just signed a trillion and an half dollar giveaway mostly to corporations and a wealthy few individuals.
8
Perhaps they were hoping to spare Americans all the angst that they are now experiencing. NYS Governor Cuomo, especially, should have realized that many municipalities weren't set up for prepayments before he made his grand gesture. It really just created more chaos and anxiety.
2
I thought we would be able to calculate tax returns on a post-card. That was the first LIE. Just wait until you find out what else is in this wonderful new Republican Tax Plan. Maybe, finally, voters will realize that Republicans do not want to help the middle class any more than they wanted you to be able to file your return on a postcard.
19
My husband and I have chosen to pay our first installment, normally due in March, early. Our itemized deductions are typically under the new standard deduction, and the loss of the personal exemptions makes the new law unfavorable to waiting until March to pay our property tax.
We figure we have to pay it no matter what, and best case scenario, we save $800 on our income tax bill this year, and worst case we are disallowed the deduction and are no worse off than if we'd waited three months.
I've seen people claim it's foolish to pay early and "unplug investments" but money for annual bills should never be invested, IMO. We keep our short term savings for annual bills in a credit union share account.
9
Excellent strategy. Pay tax. Take deduction. Then it is up to the IRS. Be like Trump
6
Voting matters. Did the Long Island residents complaining vote for the two Congressmen who are Republicans?
Ryan and McConnell made very specific calculations that the people hurt by the tax provisions would come from blue states, from areas in which they felt they would not lose a representative in the 2018 voting. About the only way to punish Congress for a substantial tax increase that they have titled a tax cut is to get out and vote against the GOP in state, local and federal elections.
And for the people who don't think it will affect them.... think again. Congress just changed the whole calculus around how people can afford housing. Your home just lost price, because the government took it away in the new tax law. If they have to pay more in taxes, they will need to pay less in price. And that will translate to A LOT less in the near term. People who were just out of trouble with underwater mortgages may find themselves living in flooded lowlands again.
But hey, everyone loves a tax cut.
38
Ha and you thought the Republicans and Donald Trump worked for "The People." Welcome to the USA of A, a banana republic. Shut up and bow to El Jefe.
24
and they tell us there is no socialism here......the red states robbing the blue states. perhaps Trump really is some strange version of Robin Hood after all.
13
Keep voting Republican!
4
Absolutely--next up--public sector unions.
1
more fun than Russian roulette...
but underneath, just as Russian.
5
Trump won both Nassau and Suffolk counties, so all of those people standing on line likely voted for him. Now they should just wait for the double whammy when their property values decline sharply due to these limits on property tax and mortgage interest deductions. Can’t say I don’t feel a certain sense of fruedenschade.
28
Patrick,
You meant "schadenfreude", which is an ugly emotion that only serves to further divide us.
3
Get your facts straight Trump did not win Nassau County, Clinton did. I'm a life long democrat and a Hillary voter and I was on that line. Maybe some good will come out of this mess if my fellow Nassau voters dump Peter King in November.
11
"Can’t say I don’t feel a certain sense of fruedenschade."
It's schadenfreude.
4
The right-wing defenders of the tax bill have it backwards, wealthier Democratic leaning states subsidize the poorer GOP states, by sending far more dollars to the Federal government then they get back.
Even if the tax deductions this year for 2018 property taxes stand, it is only a one-time maneuver. There is little the states being disadvantaged can do short of secession, though perhaps people in places such as NY, CA, New England can try to avoid spending their discretionary dollars in the states that are robbing them.
16
Barry,
The taxes collected by the federal government are largely allocated by Congressional budgeting and filtered through agencies. If the reaction to hurricane relief for Texas as opposed to Puerto Rico is any indication, republicans will use the money for political purpose rather than evenhanded support.
4
Meanwhile tax lawyers are studying the new tax bill looking for the many loopholes within and finding ways for their clients to avoid paying taxes altogether (and raising the deficit even higher that what has been estimated). And the I.R.S. wants to crackdown on us prepayers?
10
Anyone who can prepay 20k for 2018 Property taxes is (sorry) Rich! I thought the Blue states are happy to tax the rich (as long as they’re Repub), I’m sure most of the people clamoring to prepay have Credit Card balances why not bring the balance down to zero you will save more on that interest then any salt deduction, Better yet why not donate it to some undocumented aliens rights group? Just goes to prove once again that liberal talk is just that talk
5
Even the wealthy are feeling the vise of the tax bill? At first blush, anyone who can sashay to the tax office and drop off $10K - $30K are the same people who are destined for the tax cuts of 17 - 19%. It's hard to feel sorry for someone crying with loaves of bread under both arms.
This article really highlights how bad the tax bill is. Yes, it punishes the poor and middle class to give a "Christmas present" to the rich, and yes, the deficit the Republicans created with this bill -- they will want to reduce by stripping back Medicaid, Medicare, Social Security and environmental protection.
But now, the text of the law is available and the law is a mess. It seems no tax advisor had time to review and comment on the law, just like Congress.
So they delivered something equivalent to the goods of unethical butchers -- pink and sweet on the outside, rotten on the inside. It will cost millions of dollars, and the time of our courts, to make sense of, and resolve contradictions in this plan, which adds to its deficit.
This is perhaps the shoddiest and most harmful bill ever passed by Congress, all done to show Trump could "do" something in his first year.
So a guy known for shoddy construction and not paying his sub-contractors could give free rein to the entitled prep school "bully boys" in Congress.
15
Not necessarily. They may be retired and living off of retirement investments. Property tax is due every year, even if it isn't deductible, so most people put that money aside monthly into savings so they can pay their quarterly or semiannual bills. We were able to pay our first installment three months early because we've been putting 1/12 of our bill into savings each month.
3
@Kmoore--thank you for this reminder. My dad bought his house so long ago, that his property taxes are very low. I did realize there were people on fixed incomes, like yourselves, who save to pay taxes. It just seemed, to me, in the lower income bracket, that the ability to come up with $30K at one time was a luxury, and while I understood the complaints, people who have that much money are really very fortunate.
"...a spiral of anxiety, rage and frustration"? Folks you ain't seen nothing yet. Wait until the true horror of this cobbled-together piece of garbage legislation plays out. Wait until Trump's been president for four years instead of one.
17
Shut up and vote!
I am tired of people complaining when laws they don’t like get passed and complain afterwards. We have one of the lowest, if not the lowest, voter turnout of any industrialized country.
Not showing up to vote has consequences.
25
President Trump.
Show us your tax return.
I think the American people may be more inclined to back these new tax rules if they see how it impacts the President of the United States.
Thank you
13
Forget following the law Revolt.
5
The Republican tax bill increases the Federal tax on the well off.
Isn't that what liberal Democrats always wanted ?
5
@Gerhard:
I don't know what planet you live on, but the Republican tax bill is a giant give off to the truly rich, while it socks the middle and upper middle class while giving a huge payout to the blue states. The top rax rate on income declined 2 percent, but it leaves out something else that of course Trump nation and right wingers can't figure out. For one thing, it keeps the earned income credit, which benefits the Trump family and hedge fund managers alike, income earned in this manner carries a 15% rate on it. The other biggie is the carry through tax provision, that taxes such income at 25%. Something like 90% of businesses fall into this category, so if you have an llc or proprietorship that is doing really well you will ay 25%.....the biggest giveaway will be in the form of investment income, the slashed corporate rate is going to give public companies a ton more of cash, and this will be used to increase dividends and stock buybacks which will cause stock prices to soar further..which benefits the top .5% the most. Add that to long term capital gains rate of 15%, and the truly well off will be doing great (sorry, boobus americanus, the typical stockholding in this country is about 1500 bucks, investment income is the province mostly of the top .5%).
4
As a tax practitioner for four decades, I watch this installment of “the tail wagging the dog” with both interest and sadness. Hitherto, I believed that the situation of people being kept on life support to die under the increased estate tax exemption during late 2001 to be the worst tax saga ever seen, (and this cleanly beats that).
We now see the rewards of living in a blue state.
To the people on line: You live where you do as you wanted to be in a region with great resources. You pay a lot for this, but you felt that the tax you were paying was an offset towards other taxes. Now, the rules of the game have been changed, and you feel the pain of the President’s toe.
Thirdly, its December 30, and why do you find yourself on a very long line to pay taxes to begin with? Do you know for sure that your payment will be a deduction? Did you consult a professional? Or, are you one of the "Turbo-Tax Army" that is now finding out what I did in owning my Chevy Vega 40 years ago, (in that "cheap" is expensive?). Or, you called your professional, only to find out that “Bubba” is off on the ski slopes for the month of December. Regardless, I feel sorry for you.
However,as Ron Popeil used to say on his infomercials, “But wait! There is more!”. Nothing anywhere discusses lost deductions for financial fees and business meals, and retention of the AMT. (Wuzzat?)
The ignorance on these changes is shameful. (And the "Chicago" song "Only the Beginning" plays again in my head)......
6
So, this is how my husband and I viewed it: we have to pay the $3290 first installment by March 1, no matter what. If we pay it this month, we may get to claim the extra as a deduction on our 2017 tax return, netting us $800 off our total tax bill. If we wait until March, we make an extra $4 on the money in our credit union share account, and get no tax benefit at all, due to the unfavorable terms of the new law.
6
It is obvious by reading many comments- many either do not own property (a home) and have no knowledge of how property taxes are utilized: The States do not collect property taxes; one's city, municipality or county does.
Property taxes are used for general revenue and to fund schools and college districts; these entities typically pass school bond measures for building new schools and school infrastructure. These bonds typically last 30 years and more and once retired- new bonds are placed before voters and property owners are the ones who pay them; Millions of renters whose children attend school- never have to worry about where the money comes from; simply put- you do not pay for the benefits your children receive; the new class rooms, technology, buses, and many other items- you do not fund.
According to Urban Institute's 2015 statistics: " Local governments collected $473 billion in property taxes or 30 percent of local government general revenue" Only one state- Arkansas collected less than 10% in property tax revenue. All others collected between 10-30%. So, it is only fair that those who pay the most have some type of tax break since they are funding the bulk of city and local government. (www.urban.org).
4
Renters pay property taxes, too. Not in the sense that they write checks to their local taxing authorities, but a portion of their rent is used by the property owner to pay the tax obligations on the rental property. It's a pass-through arrangement. I can't imagine anybody thinking that there's a free ride for renters, though your comment tells me I'm apparently incorrect.
5
@donna-
You are correct, and those property taxes also represent another of the giant give aways to the red states from the blue ones. The largest component in most blue states of property taxes is the schools, most school costs are paid by local or county property taxes, and this pays not only bonds, for infrastructure, but also pays for salaries, pensions and other operating costs.In most blue states 75-80% of property taxes are school taxes, the state pays for very little in most school districts unless they are very poor, and the federal government spending on education in the blue states is about 2%. Meanwhile, in the red states where property taxes are low for the most part (depends on where you are talking about, urban and suburban tend ot be higher), those low taxes are reflected in 1)lousy schools (take a look at the lowest performing states, they are deep red states, especially down south), and also where the federal government pays a lot of the bill. Overall federal spending is 9% of all education, but in a place like South Carolina, Alabama and the like, it can be as much as 50%. The deduction for property taxes was a way to balance this out a bit, this tax abomination further is going to be a bigger giveaway to Trump Nation.
4
Renters certainly due pay property taxes in the form of increased rent.
2
The IRS advice on prepaying taxes is a clear sign that the agency has been substantially politicized. The tax law is intended to aid the very rich and corporations, not the middle class. The tax breaks are skewed to those who already have vast resources, not to those trying to live and work in the real world. The David Perdues and Donald Trumps of the government don't see beyond preserving their own assets.
12
Forgetting about Red and Blue politics for a moment, in New Jersey having the the local real estate tax deduction and mortgage interest deduction is a crucial part of the economic decision to buy and pay for a home. All of the sudden, Congress changes the rules like the flip of a switch with hardly any warning. They could have phased the changes in over time giving homeowners time to adjust. This will not hurt people making over 100K, it will hurt the people making less who still pay high real estate taxes and there are many.
21
@elaine:
100k is not a lot for this region, I don't know what planet you live on. Among other things, people making more than 100k get hit hard by state income taxes because the taxes are progressive. Home prices are expensive in NJ, as are local property taxes, and take it from me even a modest house's property taxes can be killing, in towns in Essex and Passaic county, a modest home can have taxes of 15k or more, in large part because they are subsidizing Patterson and Newark schools. One of the things this is going to do is essentially make those areas unlivable,losing the property tax deduction is going to make home ownership in those towns impossible for people and is basically going to turn those areas into giant swaths of poverty, as home values plummet and tax income is not there.
If they have children, they'll benefit from the $2K per child tax credit (worth much more in deductions) and a lowered tax bracket.
Red State folks think the property tax issue is just an example of greedy rich seeking tax breaks. This kind of us-versus- them thinking conflates the real issue. The real issue is how this change was made and the purpose behind it. Imagine waking up one day to find the local army base closed, the post office closed, the community school closed, the road improvement project halted or farm subsidies reduced (or another sudden change in your community)-- all done without any local input-- and with the monies used to subsidize a few campaign funders with influence over politicians. Red state folks, this is the real issue.
19
Property taxes are not that much of an issue in Florida its the homeowners & wind insurance that is the issue in Florida where home insurance a year can be more than six (6) times higher than property taxes.
2
Property taxes are not an issue in Florida because Florida like many of the red states lives off the blue states. Florida for one thing has schools that are not exactly at the top of the heap and they also get significant money from the federal government for education spending. By the way, the cost of insurance there, believe it or not, is subsidized, I live in a zone that is pretty much a non flood zone and I pay 600 bucks a year in federal flood insurance, if I get hurricane insurance even though major hurricanes happen once in a hundred years (and I don't live on the coast), it is expensive, because insurance companies are not allowed to charge the full cost of risk, so people in less risky areas pay a lot more to subsidize those who live in risky areas. There were rules that were designed to make people pay the full cost of their insurance, but the red state congressmen, seeing what the true cost would be, put a halt to that...so you are subsidized with those.
Add to this that the Governor says that we can pre-pay but the New York City Department ofFfinance has done absolutely NOTHING to help or inform citizens. Their home page on the Web has no reference at all to the problem. Apparently one can pay for the first 2 quarters of calendar 2018, but not the last two quarters. Is Mayor De Blasio also the Mayor of NYC's middle class? What has he done on this issue? Nothing, I think!
3
If you can afford to pay ahead and most or all of the money comes from a liquid source like a bank account where you are getting little or no interest, I think it is worth taking a chance. You have six months of not paying property taxes to put the money back if you have the discipline. I also consider it a protest vote. We pay the highest property taxes in the country in NJ and for very little in return from the federal government. This bill was aimed to hurt us and it will, just as the rule of Christie with his bullying style and Republican "principles" has. I believe the only Republican from NJ who voted for this brain-dead tax bill is Tom Moore, a first-term congressman who hopefully will not get a second term.
12
"...Rush to Prepay Taxes Gives Way to Confusion and Anger", if so, then make sure to vote in 2018 and 2020.
The best way to fix this.
24
This is just a one time thing, so getting all in a tizzy about it seems a little silly. There will be no ability to prepay property taxes in 2018 or any year going forward. Starting in 2019 when we pay the previous year’s taxes we will all be paying taxes on taxes, which still won’t help pay for the cuts or improve the economy. Of much greater concern is how Ryan and his pals are going to come after Social Security and Medicare now, with the excuse that we have to repair the deficit they just created for that very purpose. We already know how they’re going to decimate Medicaid. And of course there’s no money for CHIP. Those free-loading infants and children will just have to go to work. One year’s tax bill for people in high tax states is immaterial in the overall scheme of things.
14
We all have to remember who it was who did this - our republican politicians in Washington. The republicans increased the taxes to punish us for voting for democrats. Just remember in November.
9
Couldn't help but notice the irony in today's paper...Most expensive subway track in the world and a retired MTA engineer living in a "mansion".
8
You have no idea the size of his "mansion" nor how he came to live in it. My grandfather was a Panzer pilot during WWII and a cannery manager after the war. He married into wealth, and after his wife died, he inherited all her money and spent it rather lavishly on my grandmother and father, flying them out from the US first class to see him in Germany multiple times. My sister and I were not yet 18, so we never got to go.
Panzers were tanks and had drivers, not pilots.
Yes, YOU will likely pay less in federal income tax next year but by the time it comes to pay the piper when you file your tax returns in 2019, the 2018 mid-terms will already be over. Paul Ryan is counting on you seeing a little more in your paycheck next year and giving them a campaign point for the mid-terms but it is one heck of a bait-and-switch swindle on the American middle class. And all the while income inequality is reaching historic proportions.
10
For decades, government, (every administration), has carefully and with great subtlety, induced a majority of the population to believe they live in a free society, governed by officials elected by the people, to fairly represent all of the people, all of the time.
The reality is this- We are ruled by authoritarians, self appointed authoritarians.
Several of these administrations engaged in sometimes nearly imperceptible economic ploys which took away individual small amounts of money, increasing Medicare taxes, increasing social security taxes, and all other payroll taxes, allowing unfettered increases in medical insurance premiums, and ever higher deductibles, and in terms of consumption, increasing sales taxes and adding in other tax line items to pay for infrastructure improvements which nearly never occur.
On top of this, this administration has taken away the ability to deduct 100% of age-old property taxes, causing income slated for tax payments to be taxed yet again.
Out of control increases in everyday living expenses are still another form of taxation, and it continues until the poor and the middle-class are barely able to exist.
Add into this theft from the poor and the middle-class, the fact that the 1%ters and corporate America are given massive permanent tax decreases, while the poor and the middle-class are given miniscule tax decreases set to expire in 2025.
Are we the people this deaf, dumb, and stupid ??
The answer is, emphatically, Yes We Are.
9
only fair tax is a flat tax on all income no deductions, exemptions. repeat. only fair tax is a flat tax....
I find it a bit disingenuous that those who complained that the tax bill benefitted only the wealthy are now complaining that it is unfair to those who pay the highest taxes—the wealthy. From a news reporting standpoint could this be called fake news?
4
They're also complaining about "loopholes" and taking advantage of the tax code while they rush to prepay their taxes.
Two points and a half points. if you pre-pay and it is allowed good. If you pre-pay and it it not allowed, you still have a payment credit. And the obvious is being ignored --- most if not all towns allow payment on line or mail in your payment. Why stand on line???
3
As long as this is framed as Red States v Blue States there will be many gloating now who will be foaming at the mouth later. The New York Times and many others are doing home owners a disservice by focusing only on the most obvious 3 or 4 states like California, New York, New Jersey and Massachusetts: Florida and Texas also have costly properties and many property owners carry second mortgages/home equity loans and second homes.
Very few will come out of this unscathed.
4
Yes, home equity loan interest will be lost as a deduction, but there is a way to a way to get a loan tied to your mortgage, which would then qualify its interest as a mortgage interest deduction.
So Leona Helmsley was right after all..."only the little people pay taxes"
7
And so the slow march to 2018 where all of the GOP's dreams will come to rest.
2
Dear Mr. Kerian, fellow Rockland resident:
Yes, you CAN fight the system. It’s called voting.
4
An obvious solution here: States can adjust/lower their property taxes (or assessments) for 2018. The subtext of removing SALT is telling states they can indeed unburden their citizens, but it should be at the expense of the state, not the federal government. High tax states seem to want their cake (charge higher property taxes) and eat it too (have the federal government pay for it via tax deduction).
10
If I wanted to live in a low tax state with no services, I would move there. Sorry, most of us do not want to turn into Mississippi.
4
Just what services do you get for all your taxes? Do they mow your lawn, shovel your driveway, clean your bathroom, etc????
You pay way too much for police, fire, teachers, etc....
1
Higher taxes blue states are why they have better schools, roads, hospitals etc. At the same time, hospitals in red states are closing because they can't afford to keep caring for low income citizens without payment. In blue states, taxpayers support those hospitals because they benefit the community as a whole.
As for those Texans bragging about their low taxes, just wait until the Federal government closes some of those military bases that pump big dollars into your local economies and also cuts federal help when you have a hurricane and soon another Gulf oil spill refinery fire or other disaster. Don't come to us blue or neutral staters to send you our money.
1
As a Democrat, I’ve always felt that paying for the things that make our nation great is patriotic. Americans of all stripes need to be more circumspect in their opposition to these increased taxes. We should all condemn the shameful pass-through rates and corporate giveaways, but also accept that overall, taxes need to increase. The stability and future prosperity of our nation depends on the infrastructure, education, research, and the publicly-financed safety-net that taxes pay for.
11
in the rural and redder states, they have few of the advantages and amenities you call out.
the more important point: they don't want them or want to pay for them, and they don't want anybody else to have them either.
we seem to fragment more and more with each passing day.
1
I don't want them, but i have no problem with you having for them and you paying for them.
1
I can maybe understand not wanting the government involved in your healthcare, and I can see where some folks really object to public education, but do you really not want government-financed roads or a government-financed military? What about courts and no food inspectors? These things are paid for by our taxes, as are a thousand other things we take for granted. There are places in the world where you only get what you can pay for – no firefighters if your house is burning, no police if your car is stolen, no day in court if your bank accidentally empties your account.
My suburban brother, has an annual property tax of 6-7K. I bought my urban house 20 years ago and now pay over 20K in property taxes. Somehow, he is sure that he is subsidizing me. I can't figure it out.
9
The new tax bill reforms federal taxes, not state and local taxes. You should pay the same federal tax as other Americans, regardless of what you pay in state and local taxes.
7
John:
He must think that if he did nt pay his 6 to 7 K you wouold be paying that on top of your 20K.
If he lives in another town, ask him how much he pays toward supporting Jersey City schools. Then tell him to PROVE IT.
You don't get it?
Every dollar you write off is a dollar that isn't collected by the federal tax system. If you can write off $20K and he writes off $6K he's subsidizing you.
1
The blame goes to those politicians urging people to prepay taxes and take deductions that aren’t allowable. Those politicians were reckless in their pursuit of political gain, and the people who listened to them are paying the price.
7
Douglas
Funny thing. I do not recall asking my Representative or either of my Senators for tax advice. Usually, I call my accountant for that input.
You are right about putting the blame on politicians, such as the REPUBLICANS in the House and the Senate, for passing a poorly thought out and horribly imperfect bill that just gives huge tax breaks to multimillionaires and billionaires.
16
And now those fees from your accountant will no longer be deductible for ordinary wage earners. But for people like Trump who have everything including their gilded apartments owned by a business, everything will be deductible. That is why he was able to announce to his Mar-a-Lago members on arrival last week, that they are now going to be in richer. And the $51,000 dollar coats etc. that Melania wears? I bet they are tax deductible as a "business uniform."
An important reminder of the grand scheme of GOP governance:
"All we have to do is replace Obama. ... We are not auditioning for fearless leader.
We don't need a president to tell us in what direction to go.
We know what direction to go.
We want the Ryan budget. ... We just need a president to sign this stuff.
We don't need someone to think it up or design it.
The leadership now for the modern conservative movement for the next 20 years will be coming out of the House and the Senate. [...]"
- Grover Norquist.
"Pick a Republican with enough working digits to handle a pen to become president of the United States.
This is a change for Republicans: the House and Senate doing the work with the president signing bills.
His job is to be captain of the team, to sign the legislation that has already been prepared."
- Grover Norquist.
Grover and his ilk have found their useful idiot who has those useful "working digits".
I wonder ...... will the GOP throw Trump under the bus now that he has utilized his useful "working digits" and has locked in the much desired GOP Tax Cuts legislation.
Events will unfold, relentlessly, and the GOP corrupt leaders will now move on to disabling Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid.
After those "working digits" are no longer needed they may even stand idly by when the impeachment process kicks into gear.
With that happy thought I will leave you.
22
Who cares--despite what Schumer and Pelosi might say, 100% DNC propaganda--the citizens shouldn't be subsidizing New York, California, and New Jersey real estate. Can't afford living there, move.
13
Also renters should not be subsidizing others to buy more expensive homes in whatever state.
2
Alice:
Nobody is "subsidizing New York, California, and New Jersey real estate."
In case you missed the memo, those three states send MORE money to the Feds than they get back (even with the SALT deductions), and POOR RED states collect more Federal $$ than they send to Washington.
So who did you say is subsidizing whom? Run that foolishness by me one more time.
14
State and local tax deductions have been part of the federal tax law for decades, under GOP and Dem presidents and Congresses. The only reason for cap imposed by the GOP this year was to "pay" for tax cuts for corporations, the real estate industry, and the very wealthy. State and local governments are usually praised by GOP under the rubric of "federalism" -- keep as much government as local as possible -- but not any more, apparently.
2
No surprise that something cobbled together in three weeks by corrupt Republicans and the incompetent Trump is a mess. Everything he touches turns into a disaster.
34
I am confused. I thought liberals liked paying taxes.
14
Nina:
We are ok with paying taxes for services that help people. You know, things like schools, hospitals, roads, clean air, stuff like that.
We are NOT ok with paying taxes so the 1% can collect an extra $1.4 Trillion in tax breaks.
10
No, no, no!
Liberals and Democrats like OTHERS paying taxes. Big Time!
In respect to equal time: Conservatives and Republicans also like Others paying taxes, as long as they are Middle Class and lower.
@Nina: There is no need for confusion. We Liberals feel taxes are the "income" used to run local, state and the Federal government. We do not shy away from this obligation, we do- however feel others should pay their fair share. Most Liberals are concentrated in states with higher taxes which are then funneled to low-tax states.
Property taxes- are Taxes. The current tax bill essentially creates a double tax- which isn't fair to Liberals, Conservatives or anyone else. Personally, I do not wish my state to become Kansas.
2
tired of winning yet?
11
I wonder how much the trump admin. influenced the 'guidance' from the IRS?
1
Presumably a lot. He is the president.
1
I’m sure that President Chaos is smug down in Maro-a-Largo amused by all this.
10
I believe the new mantra for 2018, that may eclipse the #metoo of 2017 - it must be "#Iwillnotforget".
Folks, lets take this thought to the polls for the mid-term and next general election too. We still have that right and this tax law, which another writer so rightly deemed as an 'abhorrent piece of calumny' make it our responsibility to vote, vote, vote!!!
17
I just love it when democrats from high tax blue states do everything they can not to pay taxes!
11
It still matters what taxes support at the end. The rich or the poor.
3
Channel that anger in 2018. Those Republicans that voted for this mess must be voted out!!!
17
I rent. So, I am not upset about the new tax rules. I am tired of subsidizing the rich.
9
Anthony, it is unclear if you have kids. But if you did, people who own homes are paying for their public education. I'm sure you use roads, drink water, use the sewers, and are confident that the local fire and police departments are available if the need should arise. The list goes on. You are not subsidizing anyone - it's the opposite.
10
Don't be too smug. Rent will go up when the landlord's cost go up. This will effect renters too.
1
@Anthony: And all of the "regular Joe home owners" are "tired" of subsidizing the education of renter's children with their annual property taxes and school bonds (assessed on the basis of their property value) and all else paid for by those property taxes.
2
The new tax law, with its favoritism for Trump's commercial real estate, stinks.
But there are so many complainers here who just don't get it. If you were deducting more than $10,000 in state and local income tax, yes, you ARE rich. People like you pay top income tax rates in Europe. Nowhere in the rest of the world is someone earning more than $150,000 per year not considered rich. People in the $100,000 to $250,000 income range are the ones who pay the taxes that support the European welfare states. It's not the very rich who pay the highest tax rates in those countries.
8
Well, my income is only $70K, and I pay more than $10K in state and local tax. Am I rich too?
6
@Amanda: Either you do not own a home or have one with little mortgage interest deductions left and low property taxes. I live in California and "Rich" isn't any were in my name. I pay annual property taxes with 7 additional school bonds from various elementary, secondary and college assessments; 25 years and counting. As far as your comment, it makes little sense; Europe is Europe and America is America; apples and oranges.
2
But the point in this instance is not overall wealth, it is the percent of your income that you pay for housing. In some places, like New York and California, a person who makes $100,000/year can pay 40%-50% of his/her income on housing.
4
For those who want a tax benefit for 2017, one which will not be in dispute. Consider writing a large check to your favorite charity and mailing it before the end of the year.
13
Actually bad advice, all 2017deductions are still ok to take, save the giving for 2018 when you will really need it
Of course all 2017 deductions are still "ok to take." That was my point. If one is receiving a tax benefit for itemizing deductions in 2017, additional charitable contributions before the end of 2017 will provide that taxpayer with an additional tax benefit. But please note that charitable generosity does not depend on receiving a tax benefit. Charitable contributions made in 2018 will provide a tax benefit if the taxpayer has itemized deductions in excess of the standard deduction. If a charitable giver takes the standard deduction in 2018, there will be no tax benefit to that taxpayer. However, that taxpayer will still receive the emotional benefit of having contributed to a cause of his choice.
NO TAXATION WITHOUT REPRESENTATION; that is what started the Republic of the US and that is what might end it. State and property tax taxation is double taxation. ;hardly a tax avoidance scheme as a goodly portion of the this tax bill which creates armies of winners and losers.. I would hope that some brave politicians or comptrollers would create tax escrow accounts while they sue.
7
Your anger should be focused at the state and local level, not the federal taxes. Have you ever asked yourself how come states like NC and Colorado can have the same services for their citizens without the high taxes of NY, NJ or California? The answer is the institutional corruption in NY, NJ, and California. Wake up.
1
I guess when Trump said he would ease taxes on the rich, he didn't mean people with only a few million, or rich people in blue states. In fact, he has an interesting idea of what it actually means to be rich. Could it be because he was born that way? A card-carrying member of the lucky sperm club who thinks a hard day of work is one where he didn't get to play golf? I wonder how the "rich" people of Hempstead, White Plains, etc voted in 2016. Maybe there is a reason why the Republicans had to wait so long to get a majority in the Federal government. The last time they were in charge their policies led directly the the Great Depression, most of the people who actually lived through that are dead now. Let's hope this isn't a repeat.
12
I know a real estate broker who was a rabid Trump supporter, primarily based on one issue - guns and gotta have them. Now...he's realized his home sales are in jeopardy and is frantically posting Facebook advice about property tax caps and prepayments. Life is ironic.
36
Good. I hope his business collapses.
2
Are the 10 million dollar corporate Super Bowl parties still tax deductible? You know, the parties where everyone arrives on private jets.
13
Of course they are, as is the maintenance cost of those jets and the salary of the pilots. They are "business" expenses.
The rather uuuge number of Americans who are suddenly falling all over themselves in a panic to claim this about to disappear tax entitlement is astounding and comical. It's as if a lottery pot had inflated into the billions overnight. If the new tax law is actually legal, perhaps Republicans have finally done something right.
8
Republicans declared war on the Blue States. The GOP won't be happy until every state economy looks just like Kansas and Oklahoma. Low taxes and small governments result in Banana Republics. Banana Republics are OK when you own the Banana plantation; but, not for anyone else.
29
And listen up Republicans. Every person trying to prepay their taxes is a dedicated vote against you!
14
Probably not. Tribal voters have short memories.
1
Finally the rich are paying their fair share in taxes.
11
We need to pay attention to the "immoral" part of the equation.
And the incompetence of Trump's Republicans, will cause Mitch McConnell to blame it on the Democrats.
There is only one disaster here, and it's found in the art of the deal between the many "immorally" incompetent leaders found within the ranks of the current decadency of the Republican party.
Co-opted Republicans have in the last 20 years aligned themselves with white supremacists and the dishonest propaganda machinery of the likes of Fox News, Alex Jones, Rush Limbaugh, and the biggest phony of all, our Liar-Schmoocher-in-Chief Trump, who tried to slip Anthony Scaramucci into the position of head Communications/Press Secretary.
Worse, we end up with Press Secretary Sarah Huckabee Sanders, whose father compares Trump to Winston Churchill.
Stealing America's proud historical legacy right from under our nose, but the rotten stench is growing stronger every day, every hour, tick by tick, dollar by dollar.
9
And Donald says he has given a great gift to the American people. Right.
This is what a scam feels like.
3
Many people pay January estimated taxes in December in order to include that payment in the deductions towards the following year's tax bill. If the IRS can deal with prepayments of estimated taxes I don't see why they will not accept prepayment of property taxes. Once again, bureaucracy rules and determines what they will accept and what they won't. Government by the people and for the people? Not in a long, long time.
The IRS does not accept property tax payments. You are confused.
I paid my real estate taxes for first and second quarters for next year by estimating the amount that I would normally have to pay. I consider this a protective move that allows me to possibly claim that amount on my Schedule A.
I will file a return without the additional amount first and then, an amended return containing the additional as a protective measure. Then I will await the results of the inevitable court cases that will arise.
Without sending in an amount, I would not have that option.
3
Too many hoops. Just deduct. It's unlikely your return will be audited.
The tax bill was designed to transfer yet even more money from the blue states to the red states. Propping up states that refuse to enter the 21st century is not a pathway to national economic growth. And sure, the rich will be able to afford more baubles.
15
Wrong
It was doesn't to make sure someone making 150k pays the same Fed Tax regardless of where they live.
Pay your fair share NY
9
but you're probably ok with red states being net takers, right?
Why are people lining up rather than simply mailing a check? I live in a state that has issued no ruling about 2018 property taxes. However, I went ahead and mailed them a check (dated Dec 2017) for the amount of the property tax in 2017. I'll either get the deduction or not.
I also paid several years worth of charitable contributions for 2017.
People stress themselves out about nothing.
The good news is that the standard deductions will double for everyone! What's not to like.
I thought liberals wanted the rich to pay their fair share. If you live in a super high tax state with super high property taxes, you should pay your fair share.
9
For the 1% in places like New York, Connecticut and New Jersey, the deductions they will get will more than offset the lack of deductibility of their real estate holdings. Most of them have their real estate in investment trusts anyway and they are thus taxed differently.
The prepayment gambit is clearly contrary to the intent of the legislation. Encouraging it, at the state or local level, is irresponsible.
4
Perhaps it is because the bill was rushed through without consideration of unintended consequences or actual clarity in directions and execution.
24
"Perhaps it is because the bill was rushed through without consideration of unintended consequences or actual clarity in directions and execution."
The same way the ACA/Obamacare bill was passed? Rushed without discussion or study? ( "We have to pass the bill to see what's in it") Passing it in the middle of the night?
My Florida county issues annual tax bills in September for the following year. If you pay in full by the end of November you get a 4% discount, which drops by 1% each month that passes until penalties begin to accrue. If the bill is not paid by the due date a lien on the house, senior to any mortgage, is sold at auction. If the bill + interest is not paid within 12 months, the lien is auctioned and the house belongs to whoever wins the auction.
It seems to work.
6
It strikes me as completely unfair that some residents are able to pay property taxes early and some not, merely because they haven’t yet received their bill. Also, this is going to create chaos at the IRS, trying to sort it all out. I’m guessing there will be lawsuits.
6
Applause for our Town of Chatham and Columbia County governments. Budgets were finished on time. Assessment of taxes (really just an update of an EXCEL spreadsheet) quickly calculated for our 2018 town and county taxes. Then our town provided a link on our website to look up your bill, print it, and send in your 2018 tax bill. The Town Clerk/Tax Collector is accepting all payments postmarked in 2017.
Passing hastily cobbled together legislation with no clear goal other than the maximum possible benefit to the wealthiest, with handwritten amendments scribbled in the margins, and on a timeline that gives taxpayer virtually no time to prepare for what's coming. What could go wrong?
Thousands of angry taxpaying voters in a single NY town and millions of enraged taxpayers across the nation. The anger over Obamacare was directed at nonexistent "death panels" and other ludicrous exaggerations. It won elections in 2010 and 2014, but eventually faded. The anger and confusion following this tax bill is very real, directed toward very real impacts.
In November we yank the reins from the GOP and hand control of Congress back to the Democrats who must put the brakes on our petulant so-called president.
54
"You can't fight the system. It is what it is."
So... does that star-spangled banner yet wave
O'er the land of the free and the
home of the brave?
Apparently, not.
21
For those of us who don't like double taxation and who rent, even in a state like Texas without an income tax, have you ever noticed that your FICA (payroll taxes) are also subject to the Federal Income Tax?
Say you make $50,000 per year. I don't have the time to figure out your average (not marginal) income tax rate but suppose it's like mine; about 18%.
As a result of double taxation you are paying 6.2% x $50,000 = $3,100 x 18% = $558
That's income you never see that you are paying Federal Income Taxes on.
And that's on a $50,000 salary! Are we having fun yet?
Everybody who has ever had a job that required payroll taxes has been double taxed all their lives!
10
Even the wealthy are feeling the vise of the tax bill? At first blush, anyone who can sashay to the tax office and drop off $10K - $30K are the same people who are destined for the tax cuts of 17 - 19%. It's hard to feel sorry for someone crying with loaves of bread under both arms.
This article really highlights how bad the tax bill is. Yes, it punishes the poor and middle class to give a "Christmas present" to the rich, and yes, the deficit the Republicans created with this bill -- they will want to reduce by stripping back Medicaid, Medicare, Social Security and environmental protection.
But now, the text of the law is available and the law is a mess. It seems no tax advisor had time to review and comment on the law, just like Congress.
So they delivered something equivalent to the goods of unethical butchers -- pink and sweet on the outside, rotten on the inside. It will cost millions of dollars, and the time of our courts, to make sense of, and resolve contradictions in this plan, which adds to its deficit.
This is perhaps the shoddiest and most harmful bill ever passed by Congress, all done to show Trump could "do" something in his first year.
So a guy known for shoddy construction and not paying his sub-contractors could give free rein to the entitled prep school "bully boys" in Congress.
44
Thank heaven I retired to Florida, where the property tax on my $100K condo apartment is $439 -- per year. (Connecticut resident for 30 years.)
8
You get what you pay for in Florida. I lived there and in a "bad year" when tourism failed to flll the gov coffers and the education budget and community services were slashed. But what do you care?. You are probably beyond school and can stay at home, watch tv and take your walks ( except when it's 100 degrees in the shade in August).
What are your condo fees?
I don't really have a problem with the limits on how much state and local tax payments can be deducted when figuring your federal income taxes. There are good arguments on both sides, but I can see that it would be galling for people in poorer counties to, in effect, be underwriting the taxes of those in expensive and generally much more wealthy counties. In fact, the old situation is part of what encouraged high local taxation -- heck, why not? Everyone could just write it off on their federal forms.
The real problem here is in the lack of clarity in the new legislation, and that came about because only a rapid -- and thus careless -- piece of legislation could get through Congress. Which, when you stop to think about it, has a lot in common with what happened with ObamaCare.
The in-party is determined to get just what it wants, the out-party is determined that a despised administration accomplish nothing, and the lack of cooperation leads to poor quality legislation. But don't just blame the politicians; remember, a vast number of liberals and conservatives alike have become so convinced that their opponents are the devil that cooperation and compromise are likely to get you voted out, especially in "safe" Dem and GOP districts.
4
If you look at the history of the ACA, there were many hearings from both sides of the aisle. It was not rammed through in the middle of the night in secrecy, as the tax law was.
5
So did you share the same concerns about the ACA? Pushed through unilaterally in a rapid manner with no public input or hearings and very non-transparent? Remember the famous “we have to pass the legislation so you can read it”?
1
Wrong. The final bill was never released before the house and Senate voted. As Nancy Pelosi. “We have to pass it so you can know what’s in it”.
1
Of course, paying as little tax as possible makes you smart! Now where have I heard that before???
11
I would like to see fair taxes for everyone. And I would really like not to see the word "sad" used as a sentence.
17
"You don't fight the system". Perhaps not, but you do remember and vote accordingly. A lesson in civics the consequences of which Republicans in Congress are likely to learn in 9 months time. Trump, get your running shoes on because we're coming for you in 12 months.
13
This tax bill is the result of a bias against the Blue States which can't be denied. As a resident of a Blue State I will the first to admit I am not happy about the tax scam that was just passed. In some weird sought of way maybe the tax scam just passed is the wake up call we the people need. While we the people fight about Race,Sex,Health and Guns the Fat Cats are making sure their fortunes remain intact for perpetuity. Daily while our attention is on antics of Trump the well heeled are having their way with our courts and environment. If Mueller does wrong doing by 45 good luck getting the House to vote for impeachment. If every Republican from a Blue State lost their seat in 2018 the house would flip. Maybe we need to make sure the lines we stand in next year are lines to vote.
22
Isn’t it a “tax scam” for the people in “blue states”to expect everyone else to subsidize your state’s decisions on how to waste money? Liberals scream about tax loop holes for “the rich”; guess what, this is one loop hole that is now closed. Be careful what you wish for!!!!!
2
Can't deduct your high NY Cittaxes any more? No sympathy from me.
2
Let the chip fall where they may at the polls next year. Should be very exciting year.
1
This is what happens when you start with how much can we give our donors then determine how can we stick it to Democrats to pay for the cuts. There isn't any transition so we have chaos and anger. Responsible legislators who care about constituents wouldn't permit such egregious implementation of new legislation. I hope that people who say all politicians are the same, now know that that is false. These Republicans are bums. Vote them all out of office.
11
The voters in high tax areas should have been pointing there fingers at the local government for years. The Federal deduction made all the waste easier to overlook. Great article on the most expensive 1 mile tunnel on the front page of todays paper.That is just scratching the surface.
11
@Sean Mulligan Kitty Hawk NC
Yes I'm sure Trump and the Republicans will be seen has having no responsibility for this shambles. LOL
3
@ John, no, Trump doesn’t run the inept and bankrupt governments of NJ, NY and Conn. These blue states (along with California) have spent themselves into bankruptcy with profligate spending. Now it is time to pay the piper.
3
Australia’s tax system is free, on line, and really simple. The government pre-fills most of the numbers because they obviously
already have them for salaries, interest, and dividends. You add rental income and expenses, if any, capital gains/losses, foreign income and foreign taxes paid, and deductions for charitable gifts, work related expenses, and cost of managing tax affairs. You push the button, your tax estimate comes up, and in a few weeks you get a text message reminder to look on line and pay your bill, via direct deposit to the tax office, if anything is due.
For the IRS you buy a private company’s tax software, the cost is ridiculous, the hrs you spend doing it is a massive chunk of your life, and although they accomodate your foreign address they can’t believe you could possibly have an overseas phone number to go with it. ( Yes, you Turbo Tax.) Last time I checked, they rejected foreign credit cards to buy the software in the first place... even though they know full well that Americans living overseas are forced to file mountains of tax data because they must file on worldwide income as US citizens.
Corporations got a tax cut and now only pay tax on US earnings. We’re still stuck filing with the IRS on worldwide income, based on citizenship, not residence.
The GOP tax cut reduces the foreign tax credit on the Australian tax return for taxes paid to the IRS. Every American resident here is giving their tax cut to Australia. More $ for our
health service !
6
There is a history here. As Willie Sutton once famously said, when asked why he robbed banks, "That's where the money is."
Methinks this Red States inspired tax bill may have just killed the goose that laid golden eggs for select GOP politicians. It will be interesting to see if Trump Democrats residing in the suburbs finally tire of GOP politicians like Peter King and Chris Smith whose party has enabled this tax travesty.
Corporate welfare has come to the suburbs.
15
I say no one pay any taxes of any kind--state, local, or property--until Trump reveals his. Utterly wrong that this man is allowed to fleece the American public, particularly those in blue states, but doesn't have to show his own taxes.
14
That'll work out well for you. Look forward to buying your house for pennies when the local gov't puts a tax lien on it.
1
The rich and affluent do okay under the tax plan. If you don't want to pay state and local taxes, the solution is to strongly limit and decrease the cost of state and local government. You are not getting a fair value in New York and California, or New Jersey and Illinois. You are beset by corruption and greed of the public sector and benefit dependents. This is about families competing for the same money -- your money -- public sector dependent or employed families versus private sector families. Another solution is to move to a state that is under control. The notion that state and local taxes should be exempt from federal income taxes -- that local public sector can be used as an umbrella tax dodge for anything your community wants to buy -- is a slanted economic tradition that benefits the public sector at everyones expense. It is unfair and was rightfully eliminated.
11
@rjs7777 NK
The most corrupt states in the country are usually red in political complexion and most of them are on federal welfare with tax dollars provided by CA, NY, NJ and other blue states.
26
You mean a state that does not believe in climate change, women’s right to choose, teaches creationism, is last in education, last in high paying jobs, anti immigrant, open carry for all etc etc etc
Thanks but no thanks
5
If you cannot see the endemic corruption in NJ, IL, CA, NY, then I am sorry. Yes, as the locus of big corporate and government power, blue states obtain revenue and profits, whether private or massive government-sector wealth loading down Virginia, Maryland, etc, from red states, which are generally oriented around small business. I live in a blue state myself. We congratulate ourselves with our massive local tax checks. We think of it as a second mortgage, to pay thieves. Oh, did I say thieves, I meant the common good. Hahahaha. Yeah, thats right.
2
What a mess this Administration and the GOP has created. The misinformation on this issue is absolutely stunning. What a joke.
Never has Tip O'Neill's comment about politics been truer. The Federal government blind-sided local county governments around the country. Each county has their own set of payment structure.
I must say Maria Pappas did an excellent job in getting the assessments out early. Based on that action and the statement by the IRS clearly indicates that Cook County taxpayers that prepaid their first installment will be able to deduct their paid taxes in 2017.
3
Thank you, James Estrin. If a picture is worth a thousand words, judging solely from your photo of wealthy people lined up all the way down a painstakingly generic office building hallway, this ten thousand dollar cap on all local and state tax deductions must really, really bite.
4
So how is the civil war on blue states by Republicans going now? Time to vote out all Republicans in blue states, their party voted to punish states that are seen as Democratic states.
9
So sad that citizens in high end, liberal communities object to paying for the leftist policies they espouse.
8
I would not mind paying taxes to help those less fortunate than myself (like CHIP), but I object strenuously to paying more taxes to offset the deficit caused by giving millionaires and corporations money they do not need!
14
Really? Most money is spent on military not welfare. If you did follow our recipe: invest in education, not prisons, universities not f18’s hospitals not air craft carriers. Budget would be balanced and we would have the educated workforce for 21st century
6
We have spent billions since LBJs “war on poverty”and all we have gained is a permanent class of multi-generational grifters. Families that live to leech off the public treasury
1
What's the big deal? Just deduct your property taxes from your NY State income tax return. Oh, that's right, you can't!
5
Yes, you can deduct your property taxes on your NY state income tax return. What you can't deduct is your NY state income tax itself.
1
...nor can you deduct your federal income tax or payroll taxes. Double taxation?
I can't understand all of the angst about this matter. The question is whether I should pay the 2018 tax now or half of it in June 2018 and half in December 2018. The detriment is the loss of 6 months of interest on the first amount and the loss of 12 months of interest on the second amount. If each amount is $8,000, short term interest rates are so low that the forgone interest is less than $200, and the possible tax savings at 35% is $5,600. Since a check that is mailed to the local government will not clear by December 31, a person seeking a 2017 deduction needs to prove that he or she paid by December 31. A signed statement from a neighbor that he or she saw you put your check in a properly addressed envelope with sufficient postage and put the check in a mailbox should suffice. It seems unnecessary to stand in line for hours.
I thought that double taxation was recognized in U.S. law as not acceptable. So how does this tax bill justify the cap on state and local taxes? I would dare say that that portion of the bill is unconstitutional and I hope there are some lawsuits to overturn it.
21
The states and the federal government are separate sovereigns. States can tax your income (if they choose)and so can the federal government. The federal government is not taxing your property, the states are; the fed just will limit the deduction.
1
If the current law allows prepayment of property taxes, seems legit to do so. It's a loophole so to speak.
The IRS experts are not always correct. I've been audited by them and each time walk away either break even or with a few more bucks in my pocket. The tax code is a monumental pile of conflicting regulation and loopholes abound. If your tax attorney is worth their salt they'll find a way around it.
5
In another tax-related news, President Donald Trump still refuses to release his tax returns.
According to the Daily News, "Trump, just like all of his citizens, will be filing his taxes this month, and yet there is still no indication the public will ever see them.
He is the first major presidential candidate in more than 40 years to withhold them — and the first to make it to the White House without that disclosure."
39
Well done, Republicans; well done, sirs.
And speaking as one of the millions of New Yorkers fretting over whether I can avoid some of the Republican tax hike by pre-paying my local property taxes and trying to figure out if it can be done and how to do it if it can, and frantically trying to deal with this at the height of the holiday season and at the last minute with the clock ticking down to the deadline, please accept my hearty Thank You for this Christmas, Hanukah, and Kwanza present to us. This is the best holiday present ever.
33
Seems that you have two choices: move out of NY or elect pols who will reduce spending and taxes!
9
@WAH in Vermont-- We wish! Here in NY, we the people don't get to pick our candidates, so we are always left voting for the lesser of evils. The machine system is alive and well here.
3
Was that sarcasm?
Before complaining about the SALT limitation at 10k please look at the entire package. Tax rates are also going down and standard deduction going up. For my two children who live and work in New York their overall federal tax bill will be less even though the SALT limitation hits them. (I've done the tax calculation.)
Yes taxes will go up for some but most will see a decrease. Please look at the total picture for your specific situation More important, taxes for lower income people will go down in almost all cases; Therefore hard to argue it is unfair and a give away to rich people.
6
I can easily make the argument that this tax bill favors the the top 1%. Check out the out years, then watch the cuts coming to the middle class in the form of medical deductions.
3
If poor people get a peanut, and rich people get an elephant, does this prove it is not unfair? And what about what poor people will have to give up? Republicans’ snearing dismissal of Democrats as “tax and spend” is replaced by what exactly? A giant deficit?
2
The real question is "are you going to pay less or more tax over the next 10 years?" For most, they will pay less over the next few years but more over the ten year window that the Republican bill covers as provisions in it sunset along with the fact that the tax bracket change points will rise slower than your income will (if your income keeps up with inflation). Thus, it's not a tax cut for most, over the ten years you will pay more than had the bill never been passed. It's deception, that is all. The driving force of this bill was to get the corporate rate to 20% (they settled at 21) and the changes on the personal side were there to pay for the new corporate rate without adding more than $1.5 Trillion to the national debt. Bottom line is this, you will pay for the corporate rate both via more money out of your pocket and reduced services that are paid for with your taxes. There is no free ride and with this tax bill, we as a nation, will be worse off. Millions will be without health care, social security and medicare will be cut and the economy (and you) will see no benefit from the fact that corporations have fatter bottom lines. You've been had.
2
There are a lot of inequities in the tax code. For example, there is a $7500 tax credit on an electric automobile. But if your income tax bill is under $7500 for the year, you cannot carry forward the unused portion of the electric car tax credit to the next year. So, if you are a retiree with a tax bill of say, $1500, you lose $6000 of the tax credit.
This is clearly something that benefits middle class income earners, while making electric cars more expensive for lower income people and retirees. Similarly, years ago, when there was a loss of the sales tax deduction,those disproportionately hurt were people whose incomes were such that a lot of their income was spent on taxable items.
I am visiting a friend living in central New Jersey. Her property tax bill is $19,000. I thought my Vermont property tax bill was high at $6500. What could local government be spending money on that requires a local home owner to fork over $19,000 a year? But then I see a high school here built on a piece of land that looks to be at least 50 or 75 acres. What could that have cost? Most of that acreage is just open field.
8
New Jersey has better schools and roads than Vermont. And a lot of the income in Vermont comes from tourists from surrounding blue states. So best not to knock them.
Hey, if you want to file your tax return on the back of a a postcard, there isn't much room for itemized deductions.
Who needs a post card? I want a tax code so simplified, I can file my return on the back of the postage stamp.
11
Simple always means regressive. The sales tax is simple but it is extremely regressive. Better you agonize over your taxes once a year, it makes you feel connected to the social whole and concerned that you are getting the best for your money. Right now, you are not.
1
The US has agreements with scores of other countries ensuring that income not be doubly taxed. It no longer offers the same consideration to its residents. The body politic has developed an autoimmune disorder.
44
And now all these voters in Nassau and Suffolk counties who ran over one another to vote for Trump, including my cousins, are going to vote GOP in November - right?
74
Yes! Voting GOP in November!
2
Actually they will vote Republican again. This is all Hillary Clinton’s fault and these same people are still waiting for Mrs. Clinton to be locked up.
2
Probably, I doubt Trump voters have the basic intelligence to understand how bad they are being screwed. The first thing a cult leader does is tell you everyone else is lying and that he is the only source of information. Trump supporters are cult members. They were too stupid to see this con man coming. As long as Trump keeps bashing people who these Trump voters consider the "wrong" color, religion or sexual orientation they won't care how bad he screws them or their children. Trump endorsed a child predator for public office. If your relatives can still support him after that then nothing will turn them to decency and reason. Nothing.
I am considering asking the IRS whether I can just send my 2017 federal tax payment directly to the Trump Organization and thus bypass the middleman.
105
What I should also ask the IRS is how much of a discount I should take when I send my tax payment directly to the Trump Organization. Surely the IRS as middleman skims at least 10% off the top if they follow the example of our current chief executive.
1
This is what all that winning feels like. Sad.
34
I would like to hear from the Republican congress reps who voted to move the House Bill for a vote and then when they knew the vote was secure, voted against the bill.
Each of you should be defeated at the next election cycle.
Why did you vote yes to move the House Bill for a vote and then vote against when you knew the vote was secure? Was this your deal with Ryan?
You have just raised the taxes on your constituents. And further, you had to do this during the Holiday Season.
Shame on you.
77
Hey, the title of this new tax law says it all: The 2017 No Billionaire Left Behind Tax Act.
50
Exactly who is prepaying prop. tax.
Would like to know, this may be an indicator for 2018.
Probably a mix of trumpian hypocrites, and besieged and targeted blue state residents.
5
US don’t have internet banking to pay for taxes?
3
No. The IRS ( Tax Office) is way behind on modern technology,
but so are the US banks. There are no PIN numbers on US credit cards, you can’t transfer money from your bank account to someone at another bank in real time using the payee’s bank routing number and account number, and even if you pay your own credit card from your own bank account the debit/credit doesn’t show immediately.
1
Too much wishful thinking. The good people of flyover country will be happy to lose their healthcare, other benefits including services for children, and a more fair tax structure; as long as gays won’t be able to marry.
55
Trump lies again. I'm sure none of his children and country club friends are angry.
25
Accountant says pay early but things may change, as IRS and tax specialists look at the bill properly. IOW, lots of uncertainty other than we'll continue to be scr4wed even more in 2018 by DT & Co, a criminal organization now brazenly looting the American treasury for its own purposes, including expanding Homeland Security globally and building a moat where wall won't do to isolate us.
My rage is the political jab at blue states, who brought in enough taxes to help out red states in normal times. Trickle down has never worked, now the economy will crater and they'll be 'forced' to take social security & medicare, if they haven't provoked a war with NK or Iran before that.
This must be why Evangelicals are happy, they see the end of days approaching. Wish I could share their optimism.
25
Dear Angry Taxpayers: Please send a letter to Orrin Hatch telling him what a wonderful job he did when he rammed through his tax package without any hearings. He is as pleased as punch with himself, because there are no angry billionaires claiming that they were treated poorly.
51
An older man was in the tax line to pay in front of me. As he was writing his check, he said me "I voted for Trump, and I never expected him to hurt his home state." He must be tired of all this Winning.
87
The last line struck me, in that’s we all have the power to change the system. And that is by voting straight Democrat next November
47
LOL As though Democrats never raise taxes or create new ones, LOL.
1
So... rich people are trying to find a tax loophole to get more tax money back. Nothing new. People are apparently not happy that the GOP is making rich people pay more taxes. Very new. I keep hearing rich people will pay less taxes but maybe the NY Times and the other major media sites have it wrong. Nothing new. Dems being angry that rich people might not be able to deduct the tax on mansions. Very new. Interesting. What's next? Dems giving money back to the American people? Now, that would be VERY new!
9
honey, it's the middle class that paying! The RICH JUST GOT RICHER.
President Trump kicked off his holiday weekend at Mar-a-Lago Friday night at a dinner where he told friends, "You all just got a lot richer," referencing the sweeping tax overhaul he signed into law hours earlier.
6
The benefits go overwhelmingly to the rich.
Nonpartisan, independent analysts have all determined that.
Don’t be fooled by what’s going on!
4
To roll out a new policy this quickly is outright reckless. They should have given it a period for the IRS to comb through and clarify policies.
9
Liberals want more money going to the federal govt.
Their wish has been granted.
They now get to send more money to the federal govt AND they get to pay their high state and local taxes.
Liberals love taxes, so I'm not sure what the problem is or why so many are trying to game the system.
They should be delighted; they're all for wealth redistribution.
The rest of us in flyover country are shocked that, despite being given exactly what they've wanted for years, liberals are wailing and lining up to keep their own money.
10
This tax plan is less money going to the feds, so the premise is wrong.
And, my increased taxes are going to Trump’s heirs, not to benefit the country.
41
Exactly! It adds 1.5 trillion dollars to the debt over 10 years; 2.5 trillion if the TEMPORARY individual tax cuts are made permanent.
It is a giveaway to the uber-rich and corporations AND an effort to undermine federal programs that help people, health insurance, the social safety net, etc.
13
Speak for yourself--you're not "the rest of us." And you're not fooling a person in Oklahoma watching the schools, sick, mentally ill, infrastructure, and more fall to ruin for low taxes for the rich. Even the governor here is begging the insane legislature to raise taxes for Gods sake. While you pretend that the money the republicans grab will go to liberal causes? Come, come. So kid yourself that you can have your cake and eat it too, but you get what you pay for and your own bill will be coming due. You might have enough that you plan to ride over the rest of us for now, but your own bill will come due and you won't be feeling so cocky then.
2
We have been subject to the AMT tax for the past few years so there is no point in pre-paying our property taxes since we don't get a deduction for them anyway. The AMT is an unfair, shadow tax which was never adjusted for inflation. Last year we paid over $50,000 in Federal income tax. We are at the end of our careers and had a few good years. We also had quite a few bad years where we earned under $50,000 a year. I am hoping this AMT tax is raised to a higher threshold so that we're not affected by it when we file our taxes in 2019.
Before you pre-pay your property taxes look at your income tax return from last year and see if you had to pay AMT tax. If you are married filing jointly making over $160,000 a year you probably paid it and didn't realize that your deductions for property tax and state income tax were not applied due to this shadow tax which was originally created to make sure that "millionaires" paid their "fair share" of taxes back in the late 1960's.
3
The AMT is not a “shadow” tax. It is exactly what it stands for: an Alternative Minimum Tax. In other words, it ensures that wealthy people and, formerly, corporations pay something in taxes.
6
The State of New York doesn't even allow you to deduct local property taxes on your state return (NJ caps the deduction at $10,000). From NY resident return instructions: "New York does not allow certain federal itemized deductions such as the federal deduction for state and local income taxes..."
Seems like you gave the feds a good idea!
5
What the residents of these blue states need to realize is that the Republicans in the House and Senate took it is an extra special plus to stick it to those residents. It made the YES vote way more fun for them. What an easy way to punish entire metropolitan areas that lean democratic. The irony has been mentioned by other voters - resident of these communities are paying more in taxes than they are receiving in benefits because they live in states that are "net tax losers," while those red state residents are takers. Quite the irony. Those red states have the perfect mantra: Give me freedom from health care, freedom from control over my own body, and give me your money.
385
Another way to look at this is that the ability to write off outrageous real estate taxes and income taxes has allowed these high tax states to just keep increasing the tax rate because, "they can write it off, it's a wash".
The huge write off is basically a subsidy to those overtaxed citizens in those states. It is well past time for those citizens to ask their state, county and city administrators what is being done to require such high taxes. Where is the money going and how can expenditures be lowered. Perhaps all those "essentials" aren't as necessary as you think they are.
6
But they also say, unwittingly, don’t give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breath free!
How mean-spirited, fascist, and foolish!
Deplorable!
3
I don't disagree with you - it would behoove our state legislatures to be less free with our money. However, one of the reasons our taxes are high is because we are subsidizing other states and getting fewer dollars than we put into the pot. An alternative question would be, why do red state voters think their state taxes are lower compared to ours? One of the reasons is because we subsidize them, allowing them to keep their taxes artificially low.
3
Yes, capping property tax deductions and collecting a second round of tax on already taxed income is reprehensible BUT disallowing charitable contributions is heinous, criminal and unAmerican. Giving your earned income freely to those less fortunate is the very basis of an American's character. How dare they?
We must no longer be bystanders. UPSTANDING and unemploying them with the power of the Ballot Box is how we only have to endure this for one year. VOTE THEM ALL OUT. #resist
13
How is it noble to give to charity if you get a tax write-off for doing it?
The confusion was caused by news media and some state legislatures and governors who urged people to avoid paying their fair share of taxes by prepaying state and local property taxes yet to be accessed. Taxpayer could do this under the old tax law either.
2
This is almost laughable. Here we have upper bracket income earners facing an overall net increase in taxes payable who are screaming like spoiled brats over the change. Funny, many if not a majority of these people lean politically left and prefer to force higher taxes on the rich, or so they say. Well, here you go!
9
These are mostly middle class tax payers, not upper income. And their objection is to double taxation, not to higher tax rates. Also, you can kiss charitable contributions good bye.
8
People that can drop $10K on 2 days’ notice out of ready cash (with no concern on impact of income lost) are not middle class in America no matter how in people NY they wish to avoid that awful tag of upper class. Spare us from their selfish complaints.
The money would be better invested in puts on the S&P 500 -- before investors find out what a rotten deal this is for the economy.
I wonder what Season 2 of “Unintended Consequences” will look like?
16
Whatever anger was not misdirected some 13 months ago is now far too late.
Fail to pay attention, lose.
4
Or better yet to even agree with that ironic/oxymoronic Fatalistic statement That “people deserve what they vote for” or something to that extent
This actions against the high tax rates and resulting confusion of tax laws borne of haste to please the top one percent and Trump must not go unpunished. People who are hurting are both Republicans, Democrats and Independents. People from the high property tax and high state tax will have an opportunity to fight and possibly turn around Trump's and Republican congress' vengeful misadventures at the expense of the middle class. If we do not mobilize now, the exploitation of middle class will continue. Do not get mad, get even. Do not sit idle in the next election go out and vote right. You have the power to do it.
4
I see these people from other states having fun with New Englanders and people from other high tax states, saying well, you wanted higher taxes. No, that's not it. We are happy to pay our fair share for our good schools and infrastructure. But we don't think it's fair for the federal government to tax the tax money we paid. That's called double taxation. It's not like any of our federal tax money is coming back to our state; it's all going to the states with low income and property taxes that can't afford good schools and infrastructure (i.e. "red" states).
The limit on state and local tax deductions is very definitely aimed at those states that take care of their own needs, that is "blue" states. And meanwhile, they allowed private school tuition to be saved tax free, so rich people in the red states can get a federal subsidy for their good private schools. Just a clear kick in the face.
So yeah, every person who can pay his or her local taxes ahead of time should do so. And you know how to vote from now on. This is such a scam.
392
I hope these are grounds for blue state attorney generals to contest this law--as its punitive and penalizes people based on where they live. It's also patently unfair and unequal representation.
6
"he limit on state and local tax deductions is very definitely aimed at those states that take care of their own needs, that is "blue" states."
You people make me laugh acting so virtuous and saying you are paying your own way and subsidizing other states. How many billions of federal dollars are going to your state as Medicaid or ACA subsidies? How much to SNAP or WIC? Section 8 housing money? Subsidies for road projects? How much for SSI, Disability payments and Medicare for people who came to this country unable to work thanks to chain migration? How many of them are our own citizens who collect benefits despite a short work life because they are disabled by their inability to stop using drugs? ( I have 9 of those in my own family)
Why are we in debt for $20 Trillion? Because we spend money where no money has come in to pay for all those goodies.
1
So well put; How Trump is a hater… Even how his tax scheme can be seen to insidiously tax blue states more for the services that they are willing to pay for, and then turn around and benefit red states for their silver spoon stuck in the mouth (brat’) - private schools!
The IRS guidance was correct. Much as people may hate the tax bill, you can never pay taxes that have not been assessed or are due, and then take a deduction against them. Plus a LOT of people don't realize that if you're subject to AMT--which many people in high-income states such as California and New York are--property and state taxes do not impact your federal taxes. So for these people, it's pointless to pre-pay.
15
In most States, property tax are paid in arrears; i.e. you pay 2017 property tax in 2018. so the tax is assess and owed, though not yet paid. When properties are sold, sellers give credit to buyers for property not yet paid. So for most homeowners, they already owe that tax, though they may not have receive a bill or a formal assessment. Even for families that have property tax bill that are much less than $10,000, taxpayers can get a bigger refund for their 2017 tax filing without having to pay more the year after if they will switch to filing the standard deduction in 2018.
3
Something is deeply wrong here. People who simply want to pay their fair share, live in a well-funded society, and not be taxed twice are lining up over the holidays just so the corporate rate can go down to 20% and the top bracket can drop to 37%. Am I missing something?
63
Wait till they come after social security and Medicare to pay for it. The pain has just begun from this monstrous republican destruction of our nation and the establishment of an oligarchy no less powerful than any in the world. The real Russian connection, the Saudi connection: service of a global oligarchy and the decimation of democratic self-government and prosperity for any but themselves. It's patent now; they don't care to hide it, such is their contempt for our power.
22
Wasn't it Paul Ryan who said that once citizens got to know the 2017 Tax Law better, everyone was ging to like it? Perhaps under his breath he followed that with, "in red states, anyway."
Wasn't it Mich McConnell who said when Republicans got majorities in both houses of Congress, they would show the nation how well they could govern? The Republicans have certainly done that. Billionaires are pleased; everyone else, not so much.
The 2018 Congressional elections should be a Republican bloodbath if there is sanity left in this country.
67
Nothing like rushing out major changes. I just prepaid on Thursday based on news reports and a quick review of my last years return. Prepaying might not help, but it seems clear these taxes will not be deductible on my 2018 return, so I may as well try now. Like many in blue states, it appears next year I'll pay more tax, not less, due to losing thousands in deductions and credits.
This is only the first of many questions on this tax bill.
I expect my taxes to go up not down as for many others), so I think I'll need higher withholding or estimated tax to avoid an underpayment penalty. Or is that waived? How much time to I have to make this adjustment? Will I need to make a make-up estimated tax payment if I find my January to April withholding was insufficient? When will I have more than news summaries to base my withholding or estimated tax calculation on?
What happens in 2025? I've read most cuts for individuals expire. I assume this applies to rates. What about the brackets that I read will be subject to a new inflation adjustment? Do they reset too? What about my personal deduction? Will I get that back in 2025? Will I get my old SALT deductions back in 2025? Will standard deductions go back?
Am I too cynical in assuming the rate cuts will reset back to higher rates, but the other changes that are raising my rates now (loss of personal deduction and cap on SALT deductions) will not reset back to the old rules? If so, this ends up being a tax increase after 2025.
13
I hope the IRS isn't reading this, but the penalty you pay for underpayment of taxes + interest is usually below the prime interest rate.
Under withhold and use the proceeds to pay off higher interest rate debt.
1
An underpayment penalty (at a very low interest rate) is the least of your worries. As long as your estimate equals the previous year's total liability you will not be penalized. As for other effects of this horror, I cannot say. Sincerely yours, a happily retired preparer.
1
You are being far too analytical my friend. Let us just say that unless you are a very small segment of the population you are scrood, blued and tattooed.
Along with not being able to deduct tax preparation bills, (and SALT beyond a cap, charitable, medical [which is a crime in and of itself], etc., etc.), financial advisory fees, once deductible, also go by the wayside.
Wait until people fully wake up to that one.
25
Not to mention the loss of exemptions which has been hidden under the rug.
2
Perhaps, when administrations change, we will see rushed legislation that says: "No state will receive direct or indirect federal aid or support in excess of the taxes paid by the citizens and businesses of that state to the Federal Government". That ought to help us attack the deficit, lower the Federal taxes of the blue states, and get more support flowing back to the blue states. By and large, the self-described "rugged individualists" get a large part of their tab paid for by the blue states.
59
How do you think all those formerly rich folk survived in Paul Ryan's fabled Galt's Gulch?
1
We live in the Carmel NY the town just had our property taxes reassessed this year and sent out our tax bills today. Hoping that this helps us. There were many people paying today.
8
It may be too late to pay taxes but it's not too late to get a divorce before the end of 2018. The cap is $10,000, and it is also $10,000 for a married couple.
10
Fine. Just do not plan to be remarried inside the audit window.
My local property tax assessor was giving the same advice before the IRS guidance. It's not really complicated.
6
All blue state Reps are history.
Reps are supposed to do one good thing and one good thing only: keep taxes low. Having failed to do that, they will lose and many states and lose big.
I cannot possibly imagine a Rep future in NJ.
22
I have already started monthly contributions to the campaigns of Democratic opponents to Republican incumbents in New Jersey. It's easy to do. Just sign up at Act Blue. Give $10 bucks a month. Resist!
11
With Republicans crowing about what a great and enormous change they are making, this confusion demonstrates how poorly planned the implementation is. Just ten days from adoption to taking effect.
CONTRAST, when Germany adopted its Civil Code on August 24, 1896,, it allowed until January 1, 1900, i.e., three years, four months and one week for people to study it and figure out how to adjust their lives.
But then, the German law was under consideration and discussion for more than five years, not the scant fifty days we allowed. And were there even fifty hours here to consider the final version?
Haste makes waste. We will be paying for this in lawyers' fees, tax dodges, and ill-informed tax decisions. I was about to prepay and then discovered, the alternative minimum tax makes it pointless.
12
In addition to a tax preparation bill I am paying, I might pre-pay my safe-deposit box and do any charitable giving I might have done in the spring in case we can't itemize next year. Going to be a busy day tomorrow!
I am thinking more than a year ahead. We don't know how long this market will last. If itemizing deductions becomes less useful, I may streamline my life anyway. If there are properties I don't need to hold onto and can sell, next year's property tax will be lessened anyway. Retirement is around the corner so time to downsize and pay less tax! Especially since it isn't going to anything worthy.
Moving expenses will no longer be able to be deducted either. Congressional Republicans really monkeyed with this and then ruined the last week in December by putting us through this torture. They will pay!
If Congress had not tried to multitask and had instead done one thing this year, maybe this could have been done with more common sense. At least some of the changes should have been postponed a year and not sprung on us in two weeks. Another good reason to vote out Republicans as they really have done a hash job of running things this year.
56
This isn't really a function of some error with the tax law. This is the result of people thinking they have to be clever and try to circumvent the new law via some supposed loophole. Not really sympathetic.
11
People have a right to organize their affairs to minimize their tax liability. The complex law was passed in such haste, and with so little time for people to comprehend it's impact before becoming effective, as to be grossly unfair to the average taxpayer. But it's good to know that you don't use any loopholes (i.e. legitimate deductions).
34
Why? Do you like clever workarounds only when they are thought up by highly paid accountants to benefit the rich and/or corporations?
1
People also have the right not to be victimized by the tax simply because of where they live. The blue-state Republicans have failed the middle class. They all must go in 2018.
10
The rule is pretty simple and logical. If the taxing authority has sent you a tax bill, with a precise amount due and dates payable, it doesn't matter if the final payable dates are in 2017 or 2018. Its a tax bill, issued in 2017. You owe it when issued to you, so you can pay it any time before the final due date. And deduct it when you pay.
What you cannot do is deduct if you send money to the taxing authority when it has not yet prepared a tax bill. You have not yet been taxed, so the money you send them is only an amount for the taxing authority to hold and apply to a future tax bill, whenever that bill may be prepared. That's no different, as far as the IRS is concerned, than putting the money in a bank account today for withdrawals in the future when a tax bill actually exists.
16
RM's first paragraph describes the situation in San Diego clearly. I've already been billed for two property tax installments for 2017-18, and I have paid them both.
8
I considered prepaying taxes. Where I live in Maryland, we are re-assessed every three years and the in-between years are predictable even steps, so any assessments are already known. My county said they would apply this year's rate to any prepayment. Our tax year starts in July, and we are supposed to get it in by Sept. 30 each year. Property tax can be considerable, especially if you happen to have several lots for any reason. Conservation or Agricultural easements help but heaven help people with farms.
Anyway, I decided instead to pay a tax preparation bill we owed instead because tax preparation expenses will NOT be allowed as an itemized deduction in tax year 2018. It didn't get as much attention as the property tax/state and local tax change, but it will anger a lot of people as soon as they figure it out.
All because Congress spent less time on tax "reform" than a typical freshman spends on a term paper. Inexcusable.
20
I am not a CPA or tax professional. But I do read many accouting articles. The IRS is complaining about its resourcs are very drained and will have to cut back on its auditing. As it is, very few tax returns are audited anyway. So the IRS will be unable to unleash the reign of terror the Repubs have been complaining about. So by all means, if you have any doubts, claim the deduction.
The worst that can happen is the deduction will be disallowed and you will pay the same taxes you would have paid if you did not claim the deduction plus a bit of interest. This is not negligence and hence no penalties will be assessed. It is too bad the IRS wastes time and resources auditing people and cannot complete and audit of high rollers say like Donald Trump in a reasonable amount of time.
I wonder why Governors Cuomo and Christie and Brown are not suing under the past practices doctrine as the SALT deduction has been part of the tax code since 1913. It is too bad we have an institution like the IRS who consider that it is their mission to harass tax payers and consider that the public and they are adversaries and if you are audited, their auditors consider you guilty before the audit even begins. And many of the auditors are there just to mark time until they can go out on their own in an accounting career and most do not know their rear ends from their elbows.
14
Let's be frank. This is a bill designed to punish blue states like NY, CA and NJ, which already send more dollars to the federal government than they get in return, thereby allowing red states to keep their state taxes artificially low. It just rubs salt in an already festering wound. It's no wonder our infrastructure in the tri-state area (an area which is an economic engine for the country) is crumbling. It would be poetic justices if the legislatures in such states come up with creative accounting methods which will allow voters in these states to (legally) circumvent the provisions of the bill. It will also be poetic justice if the Republicans eventually rue the day they passed this bill.
217
Maybe if blue states didn't force border states to pick up the tab for millions of illegal immigrants who need food, housing, education, etc, red border states wouldn't get federal money.
The hypocrisy is simply stunning. Blue staters love taxes and now they get to pay more but they're complaining. It makes no sense.
3
Honeybee--blue staters, given that we are human beings, do not enjoy paying taxes. No one does. We are fine paying taxes though because we understand that they are the cost to live in a civilized society. When a tax bill is passed that increases our tax burden in order to give a huge tax break to the ultra rich, we are of course infuriated at the result of a net loss to the federal government and likely cuts to social programs down the line, we are of course infuriated.
8
Well, I see your point, but would add that people in red states are getting crushed by the rich in their own special ways, make no mistake. Don't know how anyone in any state can support these conscienceless robbers, but some in the north do too, whole states up there getting eaten-- and a dreadful president who wouldn't be in power without them. Once they take power, you will find they're harder to get rid of than bedbugs; I've tried for a lifetime. No one but the rich will stand if we can't stop them, no matter where you are.
2
For 2017 if a person has high deductions they may find themselves subject to AMT, and if they are already subject to AMT, then the addition of advance property tax payments will only increase the AMT obligation and undermine any benefit from early payment of the real estate tax. SO before even trying to make the advance real estate tax payment people should calculate their taxes and determine if they are subject to AMT and if so the extent of the AMT obligation.
15
I payed through the auditors website. They sure took it right away. Going to be a lean few months. I thought in the past taxpayers were encouraged to do exactly what many of us are trying to do, pay a chunk of 2018 taxes in 2017 if it looked like itemized deductions were better bet in one year. Never did hear from Portman, not even a form letter. Corporations are people but me....I only matter on election day.
25
There are other surprises coming down the pike. Most of us can expect to pay more in income taxes in the future:
The Tax Law's New Way Of Measuring Inflation Could Take A Toll On Taxpayers
December 27, 2017 5:00 AM ET
https://www.npr.org/2017/12/27/57355...king-inflation
"A little-remarked-upon provision changing the way inflation is calculated is among the big changes contained in the tax overhaul signed by President Trump last week.
The new method, using the so-called "chained" consumer price index to determine when to adjust tax brackets and eligibility for deductions, is expected to push more Americans into higher tax brackets more quickly...
...By switching to this new method, the government will bring an additional $134 billion into federal coffers over the next decade, according to the Joint Committee on Taxation."
22
And by including the chained-CPI into this tax bill the way is being well paved to including it any revisions made to social security. George Bush tried to do it when he was President but it was beaten down. This time it will be successful if done next year. Assuming, of course, they don't just take SS private, which is what Paul Ryan and others really want to accomplish...
18
it's just a matter of time until New Jersey defaults on its pension obligations. it can no longer keep raising real estate taxes that are already astronomical.
18
Which is why, when I left NJ State Government almost 30 years ago, I took my pension money and rolled it over into an IRA. I never trusted the NJ crooks to properly fund a pension system that I could rely upon.
16
Here in Connecticut, the tax year runs from July to June. The mill rate is set in May, the bills go out in the middle of June, and taxes are due on July 1 and Jan 1, with a 30-day grace period. Most people pay in July and June.
However, it seems like under the IRS letter, it would seem to be perfectly proper to pay the taxes due on Jan 1 in December, since the mill rate has been set, and the tax bills have been sent out. The CPAs and tax preparers I have talked to support this position.
16
Oooops....that should read 'most people pay in July and Jan" - sorry about that.
2
That appears correct. New York City runs similarly from July 1-June 30, and bills quarterly. So with the quarter due Jan 2, one can also pay the quarter due April 1, so two quarters due i;2018, but assessed and paid in 2017.
In Nassau County, Town (and county and village) taxes are on a calendar year basis, payable Jan 31 and July 31. But the 2018 assessments have not yet been issued, making prepaying town taxes impossible. But school taxes, the greater expense, run on a school year basis. So the 2017-18 school year assessment was issued in 2017. The first half was due Oct 31, and the second half is due April 30. So the second half can be prepaid in 2017, the year in which it was assessed. That is what I did.
The problem is that CPAs are leafing through the bill frantically, finding things as they go. Since the bill had scribblings in the margins as the Republicants raced to jam this through, I would expect a large number of mistakes in the drafting will result in a slew of unintended consequences.
11
@Paul - Actually, this letter ruling has nothing to do with the bill, which is silent on property tax. It is based on existing regulations, which did not allow you to pay your property taxes several years in advance and deduct them in the current year.
Regardless of whether YOUR taxes decline or not for 2018 -- the key outcome of this "No Billionaire Left Behind Tax Act" is to greatly enrich the richest of the rich.
This MUST not be forgotten.
327
"No Billionaire Left Behind Tax Act." Love the absolutely on-target terminology. Thanks for this.
3
The GOP passed a tax bill full of self-contradictions that was also designed to punish voters living in blue states and did so at warp speed? I'm shocked.
82
All the news reports, editorials and your comments here DO NOTHING.
The only thing that matters is votes next November.
Have you contributed to a Democratic organization that will help get out the vote? Have you?
Another paper has reported that the National Dems are way behind the National GOP in funds raised for the campaign. WHERE'S YOUR CHECK?
Come October-November, will you drive to a swing district and volunteer to get out the vote? Really?
If you don't get off your keyboard, MAKE A FAT CONTRIBUTION, and reserve your free time for the Fall, then everything you write here is JUNK, and you deserve more of this.
159
Only people who deserve any of this let alone more of it are the people who didn't vote for Hillary Clinton. Also do not agree with your comment that nothing means anything except what you urge.
Everyone who manages to prepay their property taxes now has an argument to make when/if the IRS challenges them. And to challenge them there will need to be a heck of a lot of audits, which the IRS, having been stripped of its personnel and operating funds by the reprehensible Republicans, will have a great deal of difficulty doing. One more way to RESIST. Good for Cuomo. Wish Wolf had done the same for us in PA. Like unions working to rules.
I don't want to take away anything from the steps you have listed. All terrific. I agree with all. We've already started writing our political contribution checks--not to the national party--to individuals who will be needing support in tough races. We'll be voting next November unless we are dead, like we've voted in every election since eligible decades ago. We're already considering what races might best benefit from other help we can offer.
But each step toward resisting this tax obscenity is another step worth taking.
Unless we sweep the House and Senate with enough votes to override Trump's veto, which no one is predicting, it will be impossible to repeal this tax obscenity until 2020, and then only if we get the White House and retain majorities in House and Senate. (Since we now know how tax bills are passed.)
3
I am going to vote, but not donate to the DNC. Instead, I’m donating directly to the candidates.
5
The DNC is part of the problem. We need grassroots political action, not top down direction that only benefits incumbents.
4
I don't love paying taxes, but I accept it as part of the price of living in a civil society (and, still, the greatest country in the world). What I resent is the last-minute stick-it-to-the-blue-states mentality, combined with the rush to get a deal done by Christmas just for the sake of getting a deal done by Christmas. The resulting confusion is unforgivable. My representative Rodney Frelinghuysen could have stood up against this, but he sold out his constituents in NJ. I will not forget.
612
I wrote to my representative, Andy Harris, the only Republican from Maryland, whom I did not vote for and who is a deficit hawk. I asked him why he did not stand on his principles by not standing up in his party as they blew up the deficit. I told him this will not be forgotten.
I did not plan to vote for him, but now he will know why.
How can we respect the Republican Party that did this in such a sloppy, rushed matter? And they expect to run on this as an achievement. Ha! I can't wait to see the ads. They are writing themselves right now. In my state our primaries are in June, about two months after the legislative session ends and politics will be on our minds starting next week.
40
The confusion and angst furthers the administration goal of dividing and fomenting anxiety and fear, this is an example although it may not have been explicitly intended. What happened to filing just on a postcard and everyone gets a big beautiful tax break gift?
10
Liam,
Get mad at Albany and Sacramento. They're the states with the egregious tax rates. Deductions just hid this from blue state citizens for so long. The narrative is not 'Trump did this' but 'Incompetent dem leadership hiked rates for so long did this'
You elected politicians that promised you high taxes—now pay.
20
Have you ever stopped to think that one of the reasons our state taxes are so high is because our states are forced to levy taxes to make up for the fact that we get far fewer federal dollars back than we put into the pot? And not all of us vote for higher taxes.
40
Yes, many states de-linked their tax returns from the federal tax return the last time there was a big tax cut. States had to keep things running regardless. This meant that higher state taxes could be deducted from the federal return. Maybe this is why the Republicans wrote the law to end that deduction.
I always thought that double-taxation was a big no-no. Has anyone filed a suit?
11
Not one politician I know ran on taking away residential SALT deductions to lard the pockets of Republican Congressional members and the Trump administration and his corrupt cabinet, and their filthy rich donors. NOT ONE.
The residential SALT deduction was part of the original federal income tax law and has been part of it since that law was passed in 1913, and it was part of the bargaining made to pass the original law -- that the federal income tax would not unduly adversely impact the state and local entities collection of tax money to run state and local governments. It is a feature, not one of the bugs of loopholes put in because various members of Congress were bribed by lobbyists and campaign contributions. getting rid of it is neither conservative nor respectful of the states' rights and local control the Republicans are always hypocritically harping on about.
And finally, I did not elect one person who voted for this tax obscenity or who signed it into law.
14
"The new tax bill has generated anxiety and frustration."
Elections have consequences.
It has bestowed the blue states a moment of elation -- they finally get to pay their fair share that they preached all along.
They must be joyous, are you reading their emotions right?
8
We already pay our fair share. We subsidize red states, allowing them to keep their taxes artificially low.
5
Blue states have - as the economic engines of this country - been paying far more than their fair share for a long time:
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/03/opinion/sunday/why-blue-states-are-th...
7
We already pay our fair share. In fact, we pay more than our fair share - we subsidize red states, taking fewer federal dollars than we put into the pot, thereby allowing red states to keep their state taxes artificially low.
9
excuse my ignorance--why will this tax bill make housing prices go down? I don't see an explanation for that.
rich get rich and the poor get children,ain't we got fun?
8
Seriously - you can't figure out when Mortgage Interest and Property Tax deductions are capped or reduced, Real Estate sales will slow, driving prices down. Just like when the Rich and Corporations get huge tax cuts, the money doesn't trickle down to the masses. It goes to Stock Buy Backs, Dividends and Donald Trumps' offspring.
27
The SALT tax deduction is figured into the price of a house, just as high vs low local taxes are. Not being able to take it means the price of all houses in areas where SALT taxes + exemptions (all lost) exceed the new standard deduction will be adversely effected. Likewise, home prices where this combination is less than the new standard deduction will be comparatively advantaged, and they may rise. (I've simplified here -- you have to take into account average mortgage deduction, average charitable deductions, etc. to get a true feel for how this disastrous law will impact housing prices.)
Of course now that we know tax laws are passed by only one party, people whose home prices have fallen because of this problem may just decide to wait to sell if they can until the Dems are back in and fix this problem for them.
Other people who might have been depending on the deduction in their calculations may find themselves now underwater on their home value.
17
Just what the middle class needs: another GOP administration wiping out the housing market and home values.
2
Do you want a tax audit? Go ahead, prepay.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/28/your-money/irs-prepay-property-tax.html
1
Just another reason to be glad that my mortgage has long ago been paid off.
The three banks who serviced my mortgage and then refinanced one all had questionable escrow practices.
3
As if IRS has any money to conduct audits. Compliance these days depends on idle threats.
7
Isn't "Confusion & Anger" a proper daily headline for the Trump Regime of White House fear and terror spread far and wide not only on American citizens, but on our (now) former allies? Isn't "Confusion & Anger" the hallmark of the Trump racist and hate-filled regime, trashing our professional Federal agencies of staff, eliciting daily threats of rear of nuclear war, and intimidation towards the Free Press and the First Amendment, presenting a daily White House press briefing that is a Goebbels' litany of one lie after another? Our president who has boasted that he has never "read a book", who spends most of his time playing golf, thrives on disseminating Confusion & Anger, all the while exponentially enriching his personal wealth. I cringe when I think of the citizens who support this creature, and that includes the U.S. Congress.
41
This was a ridiculous and immoral attempt, driven by politicians in a handful of states, to help residents essentially beat the federal tax system. No one should have sympathy for such a fraud.
7
No it isn't. We blue staters are over taxed. We're trying to avoid being over taxed. I thought the Reps were in favor of lower taxes?
12
Huh? Try a craven and immoral attempt to stick it to select states for their voting preferences. Are the taxes going towards universal healthcare? education? fighting opioid epidemic? Investing in areas of the country struggling with changes in the economy? Sorry, the answer is none of the above. This was a slipshod bill cobbled together to satisfy donors. People in these states are paying the price.
3
Fraud? It represents an interest free loan to municipalities, some of which are cash strapped. It ain’t exactly money laundering.
3
It all started when Governor Cuomo's office sent out emails to all on his list (including me) advising that we prepay the property taxes for 2018 (because he has authorized such payments) in order to sock it to Trump. He should have done his homework before advising his constituents to do so.
Most counties do NOT send out property tax assessments for 2018 in 2017. So, if you estimated your property taxes and prepaid them, you are out of luck. Your municipality is sitting on truckloads of money that you gave them in hopes of trumping Trump.
Democratic foolishness knows no bounds.
10
New York City operates on a fiscal year basis. The 2017-18 payments are due July 1, October 1, January 1 and April 1. So there are two quarters of payments due in 2018, but assessed in 2017, and eligible for prepayment, as I did for the house in which my wife and I have an interest, and our responsibility 8ncludes property taxes.
I would have thought you might have known that, unless you rent instead of owning...
12
@PISonny.
Clarifying your assertion regarding county/town taxes in NYS, while most do not send out their r.e. tax bills before Jan 1, some do have them posted on-line before that date (towns in Rensselaer and Otsego counties where I pay taxes had their assessments posted). In such a situation, this would be considered a tax assessed and thus, if paid in 2017, would be deductible against 2017's income according to the IRS guidance.
The whole issue of 2018 estimated r.e. taxes paid in 2017 will be an extremely sticky wicket. As you posted separately, such filings will will have a high audit probability. Yet, it is extremely unlikely the IRS will have the resources to do so many audits, so they'll come out with some new guidance before April. Cynically, the guidance may shaft taxpayers in blue states, thus throwing any 2018 contest in such state in to a frenzy, including the Congressional midterm ones. Most of all, it will be used for maximum play against Governor Cuomo in his re-election bid. Should be intriguing.
6
Go back and read the article more carefully. Assessment has not been clearly defined. The IRS advisory is not a legal binding document. And there are numerous possible challenges.
Since my municipality just got financially eviscerated with this new tax bill, I'm ok if it turns out the prepays just result in their getting a bit of extra interest. And interest rates being almost nothing, prepayment is a low risk action for a possible high gain. Worst that can happen is those taxes have been prepaid and are not deductible, but less to pay in 2018.
Buy the time tax time comes along we will know more and there may be a raft of lawsuits because this new tax obscenity specifically excluded accountants and lawyers from their pass through scam and you better believe there are a lot of angry litigious blue state lawyers out there.
4
And Putin chuckles a little more with each divisive act.
17
If you are caught in the AMT net then prepaying your property taxes will do you no good. Your taxes will be the same for 2018.
14
And you have to be careful about what you try to deduct (You can prepay without deduction without any problem) because if you take enough extra SALT deductions you may end up in AMT land even if you would not have been if you just took your standard SALT deductions.
The Republicans deliberately did this at the the very last minute so there would be no time to plan.
There is one response to those in Congress who voted for this tax mess, one that has caused so many to spend so much time trying to pay 2018 taxes without guidance, and with little time: Vote 'em out; yes, that's right, vote 'em out.
149
When was the last time the NYT's did an article on how much a homeowner on Long Island pays in property taxes each year? When was your last article on how the cost of housing and property taxes is making Long Island and the other suburbs that surround NYC affordable for the young and retired? Where has Gov Cuomo been in fulfilling his past campaign promises to do something about lowering our property taxes, not just letting them continue to grow?
You are only paying attention now because you want to use the cap on the SALT deduction to bash Trump. Ask anyone on Long Island, Republican or Democrat, what the biggest problem we face is and the likely answer will be our crushing property tax burden.
21
No, their biggest problem is the corrupt Republican Congress majority and corrupt Trump administration transferring gobs of money out of their pockets into the pockets of the self same corrupt Republican Congress members and Trump administration members.
As for Cuomo, good for him!
5
I am the voice of the GOP: If you can't pay the property taxes, too bad. Go move to Oklahoma. If you can't pay the property taxes, you are not worthy of living in this area.
Aren't people with property tax bills exceeding $10,000 pretty high income/high net worth people? Aren't most people who are upset about the tax bill Democrats who believe high income people should pay "their fair share?" Why are so many people from deep blue states rushing to reduce their 2018 taxes by trying to prepay?
10
Nope. Here in the NYC area, even a two-bedroom house on a fifth of an acre, with a market price of $225K, might have a property tax of over $10K. The owners of such houses are not necessarily rich, particularly if they bought the house many years ago.
57
No. we are not. Some of us are very median income people who have the misfortune of a) living in blue states with high SALT payments and b) having home equity loans. My Federal taxable income is going up $20,000 next year! I am NOT a high income person!
39
In Albany, NY over 60% of its property tax exempt, and our share of state aid for schools lags behind other small to medium urban cities in the state, my property taxes are over $10,000 for a modest bungalow. This has nothing to do with being high income.
20
Vote Republican and vote against your own financial interest. My new years resolution is to get TWO Trump voters to vote Democratic.
73
Great resolution, but I doubt after this NY will vote for Trump in 2020 any more than it did in 2016. You need to flip two Trump voters in deplorable states. Please pick mine, PA!!!
3
this will definitely bring home prices down in the region. hopefully it will not result in another real estate crash.
10
This is a tax on the rich. It is what the democrats wanted. Isn’t this a good thing?
11
Democrats only favor higher taxes if it's for the common good such as for education, health care, infrastructure, Medicare and Social Security. As with most normal people, they deeply resent having to pay higher taxes in order to give the top one percent a tax cut. Which is what the Republicans just did.
111
Our combined household income is $150,000. My husband makes 80k and I make 70k. That is not rich. Why are Republicans defending tax hikes on ordinary working class Americans?
23
This very much hurts middle class constituents as well.
3
You can only pay future property taxes that have already been levied. In many counties the taxes have been levied and there is no problem. Yesterday, I paid in advance of my April bill, which was already available to pay online at the County Treasurer. Those who imagined that speculative estimates of future, as yet unlevied, taxes could be paid were not being rational. It could never be that way. Of course the new tax law is a disgrace but that is a different matter.
9
I agree with other commenters that this may portend a disaster for home sales in the nation's most populous and diverse communities. Here in California, Los Angeles County provides tax bills semiannually, and it's split between one year and the next. I sent in my tax bill this week... it was due February 15 anyway.
But I understand the anger other people must feel. Included in that anger is the knowledge that much of any taxes one pays in 2018 goes direct to the coffers of the Donor Class, Trump and his ilk, Large Corporations, and other entities that will SAY they will create jobs with all this trickle down borrowed currency, but instead will take our money and buy larger yachts.
The people in line should be grossly outraged and they all know the GOP is to blame for this debacle.
VOTE VOTE VOTE them all out in 2018! Send them their marching papers! McConnell and Ryan, your days are numbered! Koch and Bros, go back to Russia!
129
Plus all those corporations and other entities keep their SALT deductions as well as getting huge rate breaks and keeping their loopholes.
3
It's like the tulip calamity in Holland, in the 1600's Save money., buy tulips. . It's like the lines on black friday .Everyone wants to save, or make a buck. The middle and lower class is getting knifed in the back and they don't know it. (yet)
13
One possible silver lining in this very dark cloud that the Republicans mislabeled "tax reform" is that some Republican loyalists - by no means confined to the high tax states - will see themselves being hurt in their wallets and vote accordingly. And perhaps some others will see the sheer incompetence inherent in rushing through Congress a huge, complex bill that will hurt the economy and the country's finances in manifold ways, both foreseen and still to be discovered.
94
Any Republican who represents these districts affected by this hasty and secretive tax bill will reap the whirlwind of taxpayer anger. They should look to retire because they will be voted out of office. It's ironic that the party known for tax reduction is responsible for this. I heard Peter King on the news saying people were feeling betrayed by Donald Trump, since many of them voted for him. All I can say is, what blinded you to this con man's lies, when most New Yorkers have witnessed his utter fraudulence for the last thirty years? And what blinded you to the partisan corruption and mendacity of the GOP, since it's been visible since Newt Gingrich's Contract with America?
249
Pete King is a complete fabrication of the Town of Hempstead Republican machine. So much so that his daughter is on the Hempstead Town Council and internecine warfare between herself and Bruce Blakeman versus (leaving today) Town Supervisor Anthony Santino caused Santino to be the first Hempstead Dupervisor to EVER lose to a Democrat. But fear not for hack Santino, as he took a $160,000/year job as an “administrative assistant” (really!) for the County Board of Elections.
King would have to work hard to lose his seat, but it’s possible. But both Lee Zeldin and John Faso in NY are now highly vulnerable, as are Joisey guys like Rodney Frelinghuysen.
4
How about a law that allows jurisdictions to assess once a year but make taxes payable only every 2 years?
2
So, residents of high tax states, who presumably voted for those high taxes, are upset that they now will have to pay those taxes in full, after the first $10,000?
Sounds like an easy problem to fix. Vote into office politicians who will reduce those taxes. Problem solved.
And stop whining that they can no longer get Americans who smartly chose to live in low tax states to subsidize 1/3 of their local and state taxes.
14
No doubt some would consider it "smart" to live in one of the low tax states that profits at the federal teat funded by so-called high tax states, (even after SALT is taken into account). Those would be persons I would not trust to tuck their own grandmothers in, and smart is not the word for them that comes to my mind.
63
You must be joking. Subsidizing whom? If you and the similar thinkers from low tax states promise not to take my federal tax dollars to underwrite your agenda and let the high tax states keep their contributions to the federal government for their own use then I will stop carping.
72
Baron, you are confused. Blue, high tax states consistently subsidize red low tax states while we also support more public education, health care, infrastructure, you name it. And we think that's how it should be - but these tax particular increases are not for people who "smartly" (?) live in underfunded places. It's to shovel more money into the pockets of the rich who donate to the Greedy Old Party. So yes, we'd rather take a deduction before it goes into effect, if possible.
Not to make this more confusing for you, but the real reason pre-payment is unlikely to help most folks is because Congress kept the AMT, contrary to all the promises from the Repubs.
121
If the IRS disallows a taxpayers pre-payment in 2017 of 2018 real estate taxes, then what will happen when a taxpayer files his/her 2018 tax return and attempts to claim a deduction (within the $10,000 SALT limit) that includes 2018 RE taxes? I mean, on what basis can the IRS accept as a 2018 deduction a payment made in 2017?
On a different note: Why wouldn't a taxpayer be allowed to file an Amended 2017 tax return, once the 2018 RE tax bill is received from the local government, that deducts the 2018 pre-payment?
For that matter, what if a taxpayer waits (until after the 2018 RE tax bill is received) to file their 2017 tax return? On what basis could the IRS reject the deduction for the pre-payment?
3
The taxpayer who now knows his prepayment won't be deductible has no business claiming it on his 2017 return, so there should be no need to file an amended return. An amended return would only be necessary if the taxpayer (stupidly) deducted the payment on his 2017 return KNOWING it wasn't deductible. If one did that, he would indeed then need to file an amended return recomputing his 2017 tax, and then will have to pay interest and penalties on the tax underpayment for 2017.
Why would anyone willingly place himself in that situation. He would, however, then be able to deduct the amount in 2018, but subject to the $10,000 SALT limitation; avoiding that limitation, however, was the whole reason for accelerating the payment in the first place, i.e., the taxpayer expected the 2018 limitation to prevent the deduction in 2018.
As a CPA for more than 35 years, it's hilarious to see so many people grousing about possibly not being able to deduct prepaid property taxes in 2017. The IRS is applying longstanding EXISTING tax law and regulations regarding these prepayments, which generally hold that for an expense to be deductible in a given tax year it must be 1) actually incurred (so, for property taxes, they must have been assessed) in the tax year for which the deduction is sought), and then 2) for cash-basis taxpayers (individuals are always considered cash-basis payers; some business are required to use the accrual basis, some smaller one can elect to use the cash basis), must also have been paid in that year.
What's happening here is that people who don't understand the current tax laws are rushing out hoping to use a tax loophole - and of course many of them are constant critics of so-called "loopholes", except when THEY'RE the ones trying to use one - and finding it may not apply to their situation after not having done their homework to determine deductibility prior to making a prepayment.
34
I don't know the political affiliations of those attempting to pre-pay their 2018 property taxes in an attempt to deduct them on their 2017 returns.
However, I too have shared with other people your point about how the IRS requires a liability, payment, etc. for a deduction to be legal.
If you are allowed to prepay 2018 taxes and deduct the amount in 2017, why not prepay 2019s, 2020s, etc. It just won't fly if you are audited. But the chances of being audited - pretty slim. And even if you are audited, just plead ignorance, which is accurate in most cases.
And -- I don't begrudge "the small people" for looking for loopholes. Why should loopholes be limited to the millionaire and billionaire classes?
25
Thank you for your clarification. I'll circulate your comment to others.
Of course people are rushing around to figure out what to do at the last minute because this asinine bill was passed at the last minute, and people were hoping in the end sanity and a sense of ethics in just a few Senators would send this bill crashing down with the repeal and replace ACA bills earlier this year. Of course they had no time to do their homework. In addition, some had to run around to the offices of their local taxing agencies to see if any would even accept prepaid taxes. As for due and owing, our taxes can always be prepaid for a discount before the due date, which is months later.
It is also clear from the comments that whether a prepaid "2018" property tax bill is deductible is highly dependent on the local taxing authority. Some seem to be able to go online and get their 20-18 bill. Others have already received their bills. In other instances, the taxing authority has "assessed" the taxes but not yet sent out the physical bill.
When I served as an executor for an estate in Chicago, it has a totally different way of paying property taxes than my localities in PA. In fact, I think I had to pay last years taxes instead of the present year taxes. I'll let Chicagoland dwellers correct me it I am mistaken, but I know it was totally different and required a big adjustment at settlement when I finally could sell the Chicago RE for the estate.
Not everyone can afford a CPA on call. And not everyone is so versed in finding loopholes that they know all the details behind a deduction that they have been taking for 40 years or more that suddenly disappeared to fill the pockets of Trump and corrupt Republican Congress members.
5
This cap limit problem has many tentacles in the real estate market and will most likely grind it to a halt while the market understands and adjusts to the fallout.
Invoked by this disaster provision of the tax bill, it will most likely drive home prices down in the effected areas and will deeply effect families' existing and future finances.
People may find it harder to make ends meet with the higher tax bill. Lower home prices may effect equity loans for college. And those counting on sales for their retirement may be disappointed.
At best, few will find a silver lining I fear.
This is just the tip of the iceberg for this tax rewrite debacle.
118
I wonder how many of these pre-paying folks will be voting for the Republicans next year.
321
Obviously Trump doesn’t care how one votes in NY NJ CA etc. as these states will always go democrat in the presidential election. He wasn’t going to win these states next election and never expected to so politically it reinforces his base in the red states. Actually smart politically but seems like unfair and an intentional shot at democratic states.
13
I will wager, not too many.
11
Even blue states have often have a couple of Republican Congressional districts--this hurts their constituents, too. This cannot be pinned on the Democrats as it passed without any Democratic votes.
Guess who will be in a bad mood when the budget gets considered again soon!
4
Turn the public against our institutions, part of shrinking government until it can be strangled in a bathtub. That will free capitalism to more effectively exploit the working class.
16
This is what happens when you rush legislation without proper review or deference to trusted experts. Wisconsin has been living under this kind of short-sighted GOP control for several years. They pass legislation and try to explain it later. Many don't even know what they voted for nor do they care that it causes unintended problems. Apparently responsible governing is a dirty concept.
186
"We have to pass the bill to find out what's in it"
Does that sound familiar to you?
2
I received my Feb. 2018 property tax bill in today's mail and the bill specifically stated it was a "final" and not a preliminary tax bill for the new fiscal year. I paid it online and will take the deduction for 2017. Let it be said without a shred of doubt: this tax bill is the most egregious example of government by lobbyists as directed by their oligarch patrons. The manner in which this disgraceful piece of hastily written and ill-thought legislation was passed and signed is a horrific stain on our country and we've become an embarrassment to the world. Our democracy is being destroyed by a corrupt Republican Congress and an incompetent, narcissistic president who greatly benefits by this abhorrent piece of calumny. What a disgrace, that in this holiday week, millions of people are scrambling to figure out a way to pay taxes early to save some money while hedge fund managers, et al., sip their man this on their Caribbean beaches laughing all the way to the bank.
621
Well said Marty, thank you.
17
And the incompetence of Trump's Republicans, will cause Mitch McConnell to blame it on the Democrats.
There is only one disaster here, and it's found in the art of the deal of incompetents.
34
Nothing ventured, nothing gained - so go for making the prepayment of 2018 real estate taxes and taking the deduction.
The strict reading of the IRS guidance is the taxes must be assessed for 2018 in 2017 and paid in 2017. So, for me, with a house and a separate lot of land in Upstate NY, both the towns my properties are in published on-line their assessments for 2018. I used those as the bases to write my check to take the deductions for 2017.
A looser, and riskier, reading of any tax guidance - take an aggressive stance, such as estimating your real property tax liability for 2018, make the payment to your town, take the deduction and then let the IRS audit you. If it's allowed, you're ahead of the game. If it's disallowed, the IRS will notify you and, given the confusion they've sown, will likely just ding you for the over deduction with interest on your under payment but likely no penalty. WARNING: I am NOT a tax professional, so take this advise at your own risk.
A note to those high tax municipalities and towns scrambling - shame on you all for not having the wherewithal over the past few weeks to get out assessed bills, even if just putting them up on-line, to best afford the maximum deduction for your constituents!
14
Trump, the Destroyer-in-Chief and his cronies are trying to kill-off the government.
Next, Trump will attempt to ban Democrats from running for office like Putin just did to his anti-corruption opponent Alexei Novalny. Trump loves the thought of all the power and needs to be brought down.
Destroy government and our country in less than one year, all before Jan 20, 2018.
And the we have to listen to this:
Sessions-Says-to-Courts, Go-Ahead: Jail-People-Because-They’re-Poor.
Trump appointment, racist North Carolina Judge Thomas Alvin Farr is being considered for a Federal bench slot.
All this -- will not stand.
90
GOP, you have no clue what's going to come at you. Not one clue.
426
Legal tax experts have document 35-pages worth of loopholes: The Games They Will Play: Tax Games, Roadblocks, and Glitches Under the New Legislation
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3084187
Looks like the uber rich and corporations will continue to pay a small percentage of what they owe as "citizens" who have been advantaged by this country.
5
I am a army of one, and I'm ready - willing - and able - now that I'm retired I got the time - so I've made the decision - now to speak up. Regards, RDM
4
And the sequel to all of this will sweep the Oscars
Hunh.
New Englanders vote by the millions for tax-raising Democrats like Hillary Clinton.
But when it comes time for THEM to pony up, they try to beat the system and whine when they can't.
That's what we in Texas call hypocrisy.
Here in Texas, we call for lower taxes for everyone.
16
You missed the fact that these people had legal deductions for years, and those deductions were taken away to give a big, fat permanent tax cut to corporations, real estate speculators, and the wealthiest in the country. Joe Average Taxpayer, including those in Texas, will get a small TEMPORARY tax cut. Call it whatever you want, pardner, we call that "poor governance" out here in California.
304
Except that when you add everything up, your taxes aren't generally lower. You been suckered.
75
Why bless your heart, honeybee.
Seems like 31 states in the middle of the country, most of which spend more federal income tax dollars than they take in (Texas being an exception) are responsible for the folks in Washington raising people's taxes, pardner. That's hypocrisy.
And let's not forget St. Ronald, who raised taxes some two dozen times while diverting the product of those tax distributions to income and wealth segments who needed them the least. In many ways, he's the architect of today's pernicious and unnecessary brand of inequality.
By the way, when America was Great Again, Northeastern liberals were doing little things like winning the Second World War, making sure public higher education was free or nearly so, rebuilding Europe and raising tax revenues necessary to harness the great engine of democracy here and abroad.
The domestic result? Lower levels of polarization and inequality, and the most powerful economy the world has ever seen - largely due to greater balance between management and labor and improved access to equality of opportunity and outcome.
Good government strategy planning and management achieved those results, results the private sector has been singularly incapable of duplicating despite ample opportunity during the last forty years to experiment with supply side trial and (mostly) error.
By the way, ask a poor person in Texas whether its regressive tax system produces "lower taxes for everyone." Like inequality doesn't exist there.
55
I wonder how many of these angry people who voted for Trump now have regrets?
134
I would say, let them suffer, but the rest of us will too.
13
Not enough of them, I fear.
4
Shoddy work by our republican legislators that will make trouble for millions, add untold amounts of debt to the national treasury, and add to the coffers of the 1 percent......yet there they are congratulating themselves for doing the bidding of their extortionist "donors". Are you tired of winning yet?
45
"its an ill breeze that blows no good"
Trump is the ill breeze that blows no good.
12
Please clarify the difference between the assessment of a property for tax and other purposes and the assessment, or billing, of the tax due.
5
Typical incompetence from the Trump team of Republican Do-Nothings.
37
There was no shortage of warnings from experts about the consequences of rushing through a bill of this magnitude and making it effective immediately, but Trump and the Republicans in Congress had to have their "win" and please their donors. Now that the bill is law and the chaos has begun, we have fresh proof -- as if any more were needed -- that Republicans don't know how to govern responsibly.
391
This has nothing to do with the new bill being rushed. This is about people - many of them Democrats who insist they don't mind paying taxes - trying to avoid some loss of their 2018 SALT deduction (now capped at $10,000) by accelerating a portion into 2017. The IRS is applying longstanding CURRENT law in advising that some people adopting this strategy will see their deductions disallowed.
9
We don’t mind paying taxes that help people, particularly the poor and middle class.
What we don’t like is cutting taxes on the idle rich and giving away money by the truckload to those who have offshored their businesses, to those who refuse to give back, and those who have built their fortunes of the backs of underpaid and probably exploited workers.
The middle class is bearing the brunt of this law.
23
Dear Stratman,
As a Democrat, I have no problem paying taxes, neither do most of my Democratic friends. What we ask is for tax fairness across the board. Since Regan. the ideology of trickle-down has been laid waste through many of the downtowns that the US and the world have endured. The wealthy have become disproportionately better off than every other class of worker and the new tax code does nothing to address this inequity. As a native European living here since 1984, I have always marveled at US Corporations ability to game the system. Where else can
such an entity claim to be both a business and a person at the same time, deriving the most cherished benefits to suit its purposes that are often a detriment to the local community, state and Country? No doubt many US Corporations will continue to invert, seek tax shelters and avoid repatriating all of that overseas cash, which let's be candid, is nothing more than a paper shell game "permissible" under various tax laws. But let's not pretend it is anything but a nonpatriotic tax avoidance scheme. At the same time, these companies claim that the new rate of 21 percent will benefit the country but I can assure you they are in Guernsey right now incorporating quicker than you can say "make America great again". This is just one example of the kind of fairness I would like to see, Apple or any other company cannot claim to be both, otherwise, they should just pay taxes at the personal tax rate. We should withhold our taxes!
12
Well, people: Did you vote for Republicans?
The best (sic) part is "internal conflicts and unintended consequences". An enormous tax law, rushed through with last-minute marginal alterations, can hardly avoid having plenty of those. It will be fascinating to see how this plays out.
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I paid two quarters yesterday, right before the IRS guidance was issued. I’d called my city tax department a week ago to ask, and they said it was permissible to do two quarters.
In reading the guidance, I think I’m OK, because my city calculates taxes from May to May. Thus, the home assessment is still based on 2017 figures.
But more to the point: I fully get the outrage. The speed with which they rammed through this highly unpopular tax bill, coupled with after the fact IRS clarifications is nothing short of obscene.
I imagine there will be plenty of other “goodies” to enrage the populace before November 2018 when hopefully all these GOP “bums” will be thrown out.
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Mr. Halliwell said. “This shows the venal side of politics.”
It demonstrates not only the susceptibility to bribery, but also the incompetence of Republicans.
7 years shouting that they would "repeal and replace" Obamacare but had no plan to do it.
Had to pass the tax bill to repay their donors' investments in them, but could not get their act together to do something competent. just a grab bag of goodies for wealthy donors, and confusion and no little or no benefit, and often significant harm, for everyone else
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Sounds like the only clear option for getting away with deducting prepay is with a previously issued payment coupon for a payment not due until sometime in 2018, but with the explicit option of prepaying ... which is exactly the way the property tax system works where I live.
6
This is only the beginning of the fall out. My aunt runs a non profit for the disabled that relies on small contributions from the middle class. They are reeling from the news that charitable contributions are no longer tax deductible. Look for small charities to start folding like dominos. I can't imagine what other unintended consequences will emerge from this hasty and poorly written bill.
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My understanding is that charitable contributions are still deductible if you itemize. The issue is that fewer people are expected to itemize due to the doubling of the standard deduction. The impact on charities is still likely to be significant.
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@LL and Julie W.
Julie is correct - charitable contributions are still deductible as long as you still itemize, but many people will no longer be itemizing with the significant increase to the standard deduction.
What we need to ask ourselves not just about charitable donations, but also about mortgage financing, rental property, carried interest, etc. is how this tax machinations are all distorting to public policy via a convoluted and complex tax code?
A much more simplified tax code would have been way better than this mass of confusion called tax reform foisted on us by Trump and the Reps.
19
What makes you think hurting disabled people was an unintended consequence? Next step, in two years medical deductions are going the way of SALT deductions. And Ryan is getting ready to slash and burn Medicaid, Medicare and Social Security to pay for his $1.5 trillion deficit. CHIP already stated to be unaffordable by Hatch.
11
I called my bank on 12/19 to ask them to prepay my taxes from my escrow account. They said no problem- I gave them plenty of notice. Well, they're not going to make the payment in time.
26
Which is why I don't escrow.
I paid my 2018 taxes today and except in the unlikely event of an audit, expect no problem in writing them off in April.
9