We need doctors who care about their patients, not just about making money. Concerning the "mystery disease" of employees at the US embassy in Havana, Cuba: It is possible that bats infested the building and bit people at night, giving them rabies. The chirping noises and rustling sounds could be caused by bats, and rabies causes brain damage, which could cause loss of hearing or sight or other sensory problems. Some cases of mysterious illnesses and deaths have later been proven to be caused by bat bites which transmitted the rabies virus. Rabies virus can also, on rare occasions, be transmitted through the air IF the air is humid, and if the animal or human is near the infected animal. Studies done in caves have proven that aerosol transmission of rabies does occur. But it almost never happens where there is good air circulation, only in very close quarters. Rabies is usually fatal, though there have been cases of persons infected with rabies virus who survived, but usually had serious brain damage. I worked for a year with rabies education for the State Veterinarian of North Carolina, and for a number of years with the HIV/STD Control Branch of the NC Dept. of Health. Gary J. Minter
2
Ho-hum. Female physicians are doing fine. My primary care physicians have all been female for the last 20 years (I had one for 12 years, since ACA though I have to change physicians frequently so that has been four different primary care physicians, it will change again in 2018). As for work life balance - that is their personal choice - why should any reader of NY Times get involved in that? If a female physician chooses whether to have children or not that is her choice, not to the readers of NY Times. How she and her partner choose to divide family tasks is a choice between her and her partner - why should newspaper readers try to intervene? Different partners divide tasks differently - isn't kind of weird that newspaper readers should be brought into coerce domestic partners to do things differently? My comments do reveal a significant bias though - more women tend to go into roles as primary care physicians rather than specialists? That is real bias and the medical establishment should be held to task. Let women choose whether to have children. Let them decide how they want to divide family task with their family partners. We should not be dictating this to women or anyone else. More examination is due to biases in medical specialties though.
6
I don't remember which article it was, or who wrote it, but earlier this week, the NYT referenced a female pediatrician as "Ms." instead of "Dr." So unfortunately, the enemy is here, too.
13
Maybe you really just cannot have it all. So, stop lying to women by telling them they can.
7
One problem may be that it is personally easier for women to try to negotiate with a workplace, than with their own male domestic partners about responsibilities at home.
There was a paragraph here about the Stanford program that I didn't understand. Are they really offering people "credits" to be used for domestic tasks for being on committees and mentoring? How does that help? Seems to me that will widen the gulf between male and female physicians more, with male physicians not wanting to earn credits for the things they already don't want to do at home. And are community activities, already often done more by women, so expendable, so unimportant, as to get a pat on the head with a free meal? How about a promotion?
Just step up, guys.
13
I have been on many panel discussions about work-life balance for women physicians over the years. One of the biggest take home messages every time is "hire someone to clean your house". After all the progress we have made over the years it still boils down to scrubbing the bathtub.
46
The fact this article was written by a man does not bother me at all- it was actually refreshing to hear a man recognizing their own societal power and privilege rather than having to constantly point this out to them.
On my first week as a doctor, a patient's family member called me "kid". The bias against women is profound and multifaceted. It includes less credit for and respect at work, the assumption that the lions share of homecare is their principle responsibility, salary disparities, gender-biased evaluations from staff as a resident... I could keep going. I love this job, but the gender-based disparity is beyond frustrating at times.
42
Wondering why a female physician wasn't invited to write this article. I mean, it's about us, right? Is the bias against us so strong that even our written word can't be trusted against a male physician? Just validates some that bias. Disappointed.
11
The moral of the story?
Having kids is overrated.
Don't have 'em, if you don't already.
You'll have better careers, sleep, sex, finances, health, free time, and shape.
32
I've worked with both male, female doctors. It doesn't seem to matter what gender they are adapt or less adapt as is their personal nature. The difference is male doctors are more likely to have temper tantrums and be less likely to apologize for them, while female doctors are more likely to converse with patiently with the other personnel involved in the conflict. I do know one thing for sure though, had I to live my life over again, I would have had my ovum frozen and not had children until I was in my 40s.
12
As a physician and the primary earner of our family this rings very true. I double that many male physicians come home after a 10 hour shift and are given all the childcare responsibilities the moment they walk in the door and then tidy up the house before bed. Or at least they would be considered super-dad if they did! As a woman this is just expected and definitely contributes to burn-out.
35
Having worked my whole career at Kaiser Permanente, a staff model HMO, until retirement, I would be interested in how women in our kind of organization respond to this survey. Many of our female MDs work 1/2 time or reduced hours. The organization has a nurturing culture and my impression was that female MDs were generally well-treated. I would suspect that patient interactions would be no different than in the private sector. In the latter part of my career, we had no problem recruiting capable female physicians.
6
Economically, female physicians benefit when they stay at work and pay for childcare. Instead, many female physicians choose to work fewer hours. We should celebrate that choice. If the female physicians want a parent at home, they need only marry a man who will be that househusband.
7
This is exactly our situation. It is great! I am a physician and my husband stays home with our daughter. He takes care of most of the household duties. I don't feel burnout but have to admit I feel jealous of the time he spends with our daughter.
8
What's crazy is that there is actually a shortage of primary care physicians in this country especially in rural areas. So why wouldn't we want to help more women become and stay doctors? We need them!
9
You can help them with your tax dollars.
2
Can we have an article about the challenges of being a woman in medicine written by, you know, a woman?
Novel thought, I know. But this only exemplifies the issues many female physicians, including myself, experience on a daily basis... an acknowledgement of what others think we are feeling, not what we actually are.
-- A female resident physician
64
Some of the best physicians who treated me were women. Hang in there!
10
Re the doc ad professor I mentioned earlier, both are married.
1
NYT Moderator: This commenting style is not as good as the regular posting format that is used on most articles. I vote NO on using this, if the NYT is testing this new format out.
19
Still, we’ve come a long way, many decades ago, a riddle involving a Doctor was going around. To solve the riddle you had to think way outside the box - The Doctor was a woman!
Now, at a major teaching hospital, when the interns and residents gather around my wife’s bed during morning rounds, half are women.
By the way, the Twentieth Century book that most changed the world was Betty Friedan’s “The Feminine Mystique.” Thanks, Betty.
6
I have eye cancer (an uveal melanoma). The treatment is complex and not for the squeamish. My two operations were performed by a husband and wife team of oncologists in the Wills Eye Hospital in Philadelphia. The husband was a Marine doctor in De Nang;his wife diagnosed me and performed the necessary surgery. She also mentors the next generation of top ophthalmologists. They have several children and manage the pressures of an incredibly difficult field both as professionals and as the parents of several children. Add to that, they have an outstanding team of technicians and nurses. Based on that experience, I assess that a doctor who succeeds will do so irrespective of gender if they are sharp, dedicated, and enjoy the efforts of their administrators and a top support staff.
7
Another point to make, my daughter is a medical student, and has been hit on by a professor and a doctor. Thankfully neither situation created the kind of pressure that she had to give into, and she's quite deft at Using humor to back them off a bit. Neither of them was aggressive thankfully nor did they sabotage her career. Howeve she told us, her parents, about it and said, "since a medical student is lowest on the totem poll, if I said anything to the dean or others, I'd be branded as "can't take a joke" or "over sensitive " -- and even if tacitly, this could have derailed her efforts, grades, evaluations and opportunities.
So yes, add that on top of the subject in this article.
47
From my perspective as a Professor who taught medical students in the USA, in the Caribbean and in Africa, I do not think it is harder for a women. It is certainly hard to be a doctor for both men and women especially if you not a hard working person or do not have above average intelligence and memory. It is certainly harder if you have financial pressures or special responsibilities in your home like raising a family while practicing medicine. As a patient my primary care physician was a female doctor for close to 15 years, my optometrist is a female , my endocrinologist is a female, my dentist is female and a lot of the female students I taught in medical school are females and I have not heard any one say that it is harder for them being a doctor than the males from their class or their male colleagues. Agreed that not all males give female doctors the same respect as they give male doctors or are not as comfortable as they would be with male doctors. In some specialty areas there are just more males than females or more females than males and therefore it may seem harder for Doctors in a gender dominated specialty. The new study mentioned in JAMA may suggest that it is worse for women than men but I am wondering whether they factored in the different variables. A confident, well trained, well rounded, well prepared doctor will thrive irrespective of the gender and find ways to stay happy and healthy and have good bed side manners. Not everyone is suitable to be a doctor.
8
Girish, a few questions:
1 - You're a guy, correct? so speaking as an observer, not someone with first-hand experience? What is your basis for concluding it is not harder for women?
2 - Is your argument that saying women are more likely not to be hard working people or not to have above/average intelligence/memory? I.e., it's harder for the less competent, and they are more likely to be female, which is why women perceive it as harder for women -- but it's actually not their gender, it's their lesser competence?
15
Reader from San Franncisco. Yes I am speaking from first hand experience. I am not concluding that women find it harder being a doctor. I am concluding that not everyone male or female are suitable to be a doctor and do not anticipate the challenges they will face as doctors. It takes a special person (male or female) with commitment, stamina and endurance to be a doctor. Read my post carefully. I have no basis to say what you imply I am saying. No where I say women find it harder because they are not hard working. What I am saying is that there are both male and female doctors that are doctors that did not have what it takes to be a doctor. Good doctors both male and female are special people not only because they spent long years in medical school followed by residency and specialty years but because they have mental and physical tenacity and a proper perspective in life. As the article rightly points out the depression is experienced both by males and females and in some fields where a doctor is trying to cure cancer or a difficult condition There could be more deaths than a person (male or female) can handle. If one accepts the conclusions of the article than there should be special training of those doctors (male or female) predisposed to depression. Over worked, over stressed doctors (male or female) concerned about paying their massive student loans are most likely to be depressed.
4
In general, professional women do not talk about their experiences of gender bias- especially around male coworkers. Sometimes we don't even talk to other women about our experiences. This is particularly true in male dominated fields. It's highly unlikely that you would ever know that a female colleague struggles with gender bias, but that does not mean the problem does not exist. It just means they're not talking to you about it.
50
A year ago a man told me that women don't face employment barriers any more. He just refused to believe the statistical evidence or the harassment issue. Until our culture places value on "home" work, most men are not going to do their fair share. Even the millennial men. I waited until my late 40s to marry an older man. He can and does cook, clean, iron, and write more of our holiday cards than I do. His job as a company chairman means he is working full time and more outside the home as well. When I see a husband or male partner who is proud of doing just 20 percent of the household/child care duties, I shudder. My marriage was well worth the wait.
13
If female MDs work fewer hours (11 hours per week is cited in the article), then in a market that is sex blind female Mds would annually earn 20 to 25 percent less than their male colleagues who are working (on average) 11 hours more per week (assumed average male work week of either 40 or 50 hours per week). What disparity" do you want to reduce eliminate? Do you want male MDs to work less, female MDs to spend less time with their children or what? The point is just because there is a statistical difference ("disparity") it does not mean that it is: 1) a result of invidious discrimination, and 2) subject to remediation. People are different and, more importantly, want to choose their lifestyles that make them different. Suppose you gave a choice to a parent: work 20 hours more per week and be able to hire a nanny for your children to care for them in your absence, or accept reduced to pay to be with your children. Would there be a "disparity" between the choices of males and females Curing "disparities" is usually more deleterious than the "disparity."
8
On an hour-per-hour basis, women make less than men. The studies that have been done are controlled for hours worked, family structure, and years of experience. https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/2532788
But, please, go on and keep thinking that it's not disparity, it's a lifestyle choice.
36
Thanks, Liz. Qazmun also conveniently ignores the other parts of the article that have nothing to do with hours worked or child care. Apparently you only deserve to be addressed as doctor if you work 70 hours a week instead of 60.
5
Amazing you are just now figuring it out!!! I was one of TWO women graduating in my medical school class (1959). I faced a LOT of predjudice from my instructors, more than from my classmates. But my attitude was 'take no prisoners'--I could outwork most, and had to do so just to survive. I also would call attention to any putdown. Not a meek acceptor, that is for sure.
29
There is another problem. Doctors, and not only men, can feel it is a waste of time to take on a woman as a resident. For reasons discussed here many drop out of medicine and even residency to go into medical research. And I must say that successful women scientists in other fields, including a close relative, report special problem with Indian men.
4
As awareness of gender bias in the workplace gains momentum, this article raises important biases routinely faced in medicine (and for women in the workplace). As a physician, I have been regularly confused by conversations in which my male non-physician colleagues are recognized as a physician.
Despite acknowledging this bias, this article misses the mark. It portrays women physicians as victims of the workplace and places the burden of resolving this bias back onto them through "mentorship." It identified an opportunity to reduce bias in the evaluation of students and residents where hierarchy and promotional patterns are clear. It fails to strongly define the responsibility of male leadership to ensure that they are participating in the promotion of institutional justice for their female physician peers.
Lastly, I would like to identify that most egregious missed opportunity of this article -- a male physician wrote an article about the challenges of being a female doctor. While Druv argues that "disparities don't close on their own. They close because we close them," he took away an opportunity for a female a physician to share her story.
23
if, on average, a female physician works 11 hrs less per week than a male physician, should she get promoted over the male physician if the quality of their work is similar? i hope not. my partner and I have a busy surgical practice. we are male. we were on call every other day and work 70-100 hrs per week and have hired a third surgeon who happens to be female. she was the best person for the job. i expect her to work as hard as we do and perform to the standards of a board certified surgeon. this cannot happen if she works 11 hrs/week less than we do.
6
goldenbears, I don’t want a surgeon who works 70-100 hours per week.
6
Maybe if there was more funding for residents the work would not have to fall on a few who put in 80-100 hours per week. It’s time to change the culture of medicine
11
For all the high school and college students thinking about becoming a doctor, think twice.
Spend your spring break with a real working physician. Shadow them from the minute they arrive at the hospital or office until they go home. Keep up with all the fun things your friends are doing on Instagram. This is a taste of what your future could be. For added realism do it while you've got a cold, have a big project due and someone you love needs your attention.
Medicine is like the priesthood. Sacrifices are built into it. During training I used to say you can have friends, family, hobbies or medicine. Pick two.
Ask yourself what really motivates you. If it has anything to do with pleasing others I guarantee you will be very unhappy.
Ask yourself what you do under pressure. If it is avoidant or self-destructive I predict things will go badly for you.
Ask yourself what you do when disrespected. If it makes you angry or humiliates you, then buckle up because you are in for a huge heaping helping of disrespect first in training, then in practice. Mostly from the system.
Ask yourself how you measure success. If it's money or prestige, pick a different profession. To be sure there is some of both, but not that much and there are far easier paths.
If you make it through this and pick a specialty that suits you, you may be one of the lucky ones and find yourself in the best, most meaningful job in the world. One that I would do for free. (but don't tell Medicare)
25
As a female anesthesiologist who just finished a 24- hour OR call, exhausted, with a mean cold . . . I agree with all of this.
Still, at the end of our last case early this morning, the surgeon and I were discussing how lucky we feel to be able to do this work. Maybe it was the sleep deprivation talking, but all they misery seems worth it when we are actually taking care of patients.
2
This is clearly a passive aggressive response by a man to an article about women. Women HAVE asked ourselves these questions and we do sacrifice a LOT, all the time. It is often on the shoulders of women that men are able to stay late and "make sacrifices". How many male physicians have a wife that is breaking her back so that he can 'make sacrifices' by working late?
If you are a male, then chances are you have utterly no concept of the level of disrespect women physicians face every day even when we are at the top of our field.
4
As a male ex-husband of a physician, all I can say is, society still doesn't accept men caring full-time for children, and cooking and cleaning. I made residency and practice very easy for my ex, but getting back into my old career has been difficult. When a woman has a gap in her work history, employers know right away that it was likely for child-care. With a man it could be anything, Prison, drug rehab, but the stereotype is that he's lazy.
These kinds of articles cause men like myself to believe that raising the kids is the right thing to do to help advance women in the workforce. It does, but nobody will have any sympathy once you're cast aside.
The Times needs to put more effort into writing articles encouraging employers to put more effort into hiring women and men who have taken time off for child-care and elder-care.
53
You are right, the prejudice against women also hurts men who try to be stay at home dads, or simply share more fairly on housework. More women suffer from these issues, but to change things, we have to change the way we look at work and people. Why would anyone want to be seen by a doctor that works 80 hours a week? I don't care how bright and tough you are, a tired a person makes more mistakes. Let logic and fairness be our guides.
11
as a male physician with a daughter a physician as well, many of these points are well taken. However , it should be more apparent than this article makes it that much of the increased stress is based on physician family dynamics, and patient view. Some of the income disparity is based on lifestyle choices (again often based on family dynamics) and some I believe from the patient centered ( versus profit centered) practice that women seem t o prefer. (ie female physicians are often more emotionally in tune with their patients, and thus often spend more time leaving their profitability lacking. a great thing for their patients, not so great for their wallet)
3
Thank you for this article David. As a female physician, who met my first husband (of 25 years) in medical school, I have experienced this issue throughout my career. I chose psychiatry partly because of the flexibility it afforded me, given the desire to have a family, and a spouse who became a obstetrician. And, the distribution of labor, work hours etc was as you have detailed. I have routinely observed and experienced a disparity between the way we women physicians were treated, and compensated, as compared to our male colleagues. I do think a cultural shift is crucial. Perhaps economic forces will help drive change. I hope so. But, would not bet on it. Doctor shortages abound now. And, burnout is at record levels for physicians in general. Let's hope it makes the landscape more level.
5
Your work distribution in your household was you and your spouse's choice. Every dual doc family has the financial means to get any and all household work they want covered.
What women physicians need to recognize and acknowledge is that they have a stronger desire than their male spouses do about being with their children, or feel more distress in not being with them, more accurately, and act on that.
I'm a doc, a mom, and haven't worked full time since my second child was born 28 years ago. My choice, and I will be forever grateful to my partners who supported it.
I note that in the nearly forty years I've been in medicine, I have yet to see a doctor dad cut back on his practice hours to spend more time with his children; virtually every female physician who is a mom who can do so does. Ditto w the CRNAs, male and female, I work with.
Let's not be science deniers--hormones effect brains and the choices those brains make.
9
Lamcg55, considering that most doctors are graduating with $250,000-$300,000 worth of debt these days, you might want to check your assumption that young 2-doctor households have nearly as much to pay for household help as you seem to think they do. I suspect that the debt situation may have been a bit different when you entered practice 40 years ago.
6
The unquestioned premise of the article seems to be that men and women should be perceived as equally capable as physicians, and that unfounded biases have undermined that.
But has this premise been scientifically tested? In other words, is it possible that the perception of men as being better at and better suited to being doctors is actually accurate?
3
It’s one of those questions you’re “not allowed to ask”, but a recent study actually found the opposite - that female internists caring for elderly patients had better 30 day mortalities than their male colleagues. The reasons why are unclear but the data is there.
15
Actually, what research show is that women physicians actually have better patient outcomes. Here's a link if you care to investigate further. https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/article-abstract/2...
16
Have you actually read the study? It's deeply flawed, including in the fact that the male and female physicians' patient populations weren't at all comparable.
I am a male surgeon with a daughter and son. My daughter has many programs for girls available to encourage a STEM career. Girls out number boys in most of the advance classes in high school. My son has no clubs that are boy specific that encourage STEM. I am less worried about my daughter's future than my son's. Today's female work place problems is tomorrow's male work place problems. Second men are judged harshly if they don't make as much or more than are female. I know of colleagues whose spouses berate them for not being as successful. Can't have it both ways. Children take away from hours at work. Both genders get punished in different ways and men are often silent.
13
Those programs often exist to counter the prevailing biases that girls/women face in education. So your son's existence as a male in our society is what is assumed to encourage a STEM career. The fact that men are "judged harshly" is not a reasonable argument to perpetuate workplace inequities.
11
You are right about one thing: if we want women's roles to change, all roles have to change. Boy also need new support and role models.
5
There's too much emphasis on men versus women in this piece. I'm a female physician. I suffered severe bullying in training - at the hands of a female doctor, who was aided and abetted by several people: one man and several women. This derailed my career, worse, my whole life, and severely so. The recent revelations about sexual abuse have rekindled my PTSD, or rather, helped me realize that not only was I abused, but no one helped me, and I was shamed into silence.
They all went on with their lives. I never did. I read about Annabella Sciorra recently and felt terribly sad, not only for her, but for me too.
8
I should clarify that medicine is very rigid and very punitive, the boss has absolute power, and that is why being bullied at the very beginning is an event you can never recover from. I've suffered for decades and I can assure you it does not get better with age, only worse, as life has passed me by. The shock, trauma, depression, along with being shunned as victims of abuse often are, inability to get adequate work, and the rest of life crumbles around that. One powerful bully, and life is over.
7
A few years ago I needed treatment for breast cancer. My entire treatment team (with the exception of the cardiologist who cleared me for surgery) was female. Given how often we were seeing each other, and the relationships we built in our common goal of getting me better, I started to consider my doctors to be friends.
That said, I would never consider calling them anything other than "Doctor." Each of them worked very hard to earn her MD, and they continue to earn recognition for it through the work they do.
11
Fascinating article, thanks. Lots of subtle biases at play in our societies...
Somewhat tangentially but perhaps a common writerly bias, I wish articles about women's professional stress didn't always refer to the 'additional responsibilities of family'. Occasionally, a writer will refer to the man's reliance upon a stay-at-home spouse but it's never framed in the same individual balance sheet as is used for woman. In the press, the woman is forever failing for trying to 'have it all' eg: she is both weak and implicitly greedy. In truth, the man is succeeding (or having an easier time) because he is actually ignoring his kids and coasting on male authority. Baldly put, yes but...really, the emphasis should be on that once in a while.
33
My daughter graduated from medical school about seven years ago, did her residency at Columbia-Presbyterian, did another year of chief residency at that same institution, and is now completing her fellowship in pulmonary/critical care. She’s been married for about a year and a half and she and her husband decided to begin their family because she is already 34 years old. She feels that her biological clock is ticking, but yet she wants to practice medicine because it’s her dream of a lifetime. However she finds herself in the position of after having as many student loans as she has accrued, she still is having difficulty finding a position even with the credentials just mentioned. Add to that the prospect that both she and her husband are willing to move outside of New York City where they now make their home, and the road to a satisfactory position that suits the needs of both her husband and her self and their future child (to be born in February) is a looming and scary one, at best.
There is no question that this is a tough battle for anybody, but I do believe that many women have it a bit tougher than many men. Thanks for the insights into the life of a female medical student/doctor.
24
This is pervasive, likely in all fields. I once went to a panel on science education where two female speakers, both highly accomplished PhD scientists who happened to share the same first name, were introduced as "the two Marys." I have never seen a man introduced without his title a full recitation of his every accomplishment.
53
You address a person with a title by his or her title.
1
Well, thank God for Standardized Testing, which doesn't "know" whether the test taker is a M or F. I probably have benefited from that lack of information, since I am a birth certificate F. That is what I am thinking about after reading about bias, in this article.
3
For a bit more context, the Association of American Medical Colleges provides the following data for 2015. These medical specialties are analyzed by percentages of practitioners by sex.
All specialties: F: 34.0%; M: 66.0%
Geriatric medicine: F: 51.2%; M:48.8%
Psychiatry: F: 38.0; M:62.0
Pediatrics: F: 61.9%; M 38.1%
Obstetrics and Gynecology: F: 54.5%; M: 45.5%
Surgery:
General: F: 19.2%; M: 80.8%
Orthopedic: F: 5.0%; M: 95.0%
An interesting example of the proxy that race or ethnicity plays in individual doctors' lives; and, the stories these data points may be trying to communicate can be found in a NY Times Magazine article. It is in the October 29, 2017 issue and it is entitled: "The Rules of the Doctor's Heart." It was written by Siddhartha Mukherjee. This short article tries to show the relationship between a doctor and his ethnic upbringing; and the many ethical issues which can arise from this interface.
[JJL Th 12:47p 12/07/2017 Greenville NC]
My best friend works in medicine and one of his co-workers is a female with 3-4 kids. Her husband is also a doctor. My friend is very often"left" to do her work as when her kids get sick (and they seem to get sick a lot) she hurries home and leaves work. She does not have a nanny - but why she does not have one I have no idea - it can't be due to money. So my friend is frequently doing her work along with his. Sorry but I have no sympathy here. If you are a part of the working world you do your share. It's not fair to us (even us women) who end up doing our work as well as the work of others due to child rearing issues.
18
Anita,
Yes, these type of situations do breed anger and resentment. I think this situation with your friend, however, reflects a failure by administration not a failure by the physician mother. Does the clinic/hospital not have a cross-coverage system that allows for staff to leave when they or a child gets sick? Do they have a system where the 'on duty' physician has a lighter caseload that day so that it is less of a burden if another physician is out or needs to leave? When this is not in place, it is a setup for resentment towards physician mothers.
18
Something to consider - is it the case that your friend never has to leave work for sick kids because he has a full time stay at home spouse? Demanding careers like medicine and law require one to commit to work to the virtual exclusion of all else. Which means someone has to be taking care of the rest of life for you, unless you've elected not to have a life outside work. Certainly not all men have stay at home wives. But a large percentage of high achieving men do, and an extremely tiny percentage of women do. Then the women get criticized for trying to take care of responsibilities that her many of her male counterparts simply don't have.
18
No, my friend does not have kids. Another reason he gets dumped on. And there isn't a"network" in place to cover for each other. Hospitals are leanly staffed these days.
The actual suicide rates are the same for male and female doctors. Depression rates among male and female doctors mirror the ratio of depression rates among non-doctors by sex. Female doctors earn less because they choose specialities that pay less - take time off, choose not to relocate for work and are more likely to work part time. Home duties - as always are self-selecting - most Dr's I know hire a housekeeper - but that is a personal choice.
But - then again - that is the best outcome - as a highly paid professional you get to make personal lifestyle choices that 95% of the population does not get to make nor whinge about.
5
Steve, although you are correct that the depression rates for male and female physicians mirror those in the gender matched population, the actual "successful" suicide rates are the same for male and female doctors, which means that women physician's suicide rates are FOUR TIMES that of women in the non physician population. This is the meaningful statistic.
Women physicians are often paid less because they choose clinical positions in academia, do not know how to negotiate for fair salaries, and are subtly discriminated against when raises are being considered, often because of their split responsibilities between job and home. Few men who have children feel as responsible for their care when they have a partner who is not in medicine (which is the norm). Female doctors often marry other doctors because of intellectual and status matches.
Personally, I have never heard anyone use the "whinge" word who was not thereby making a values statement.
33
Do pediatricians really make less than neurologists because their services are less valuable (to the patient or to society)?
3
Is this finding unique to medicine, or is it found in other high-demand 80+ hour work week types of occupations (military, legal, etc)
1
I expect it is also found in other high-demand high commitment occupations. But other such occupations are not chosen as often by compassionate and "other-directed" persons, as is medicine.
3
Probably not, but it's particularly noticeable because about 50% of doctors are women, and physicians like data so there are lots of surveys about our feelings.
Sagafemina also makes a good point, although I would add that it's not just that compassionate people choose medicine -- medicine also purports to value compassion.
3
Funny. The NYT is guilty of this too.(re:female doctors not being called doctors). Just yesterday, I complained that, in an article about previously uninvolved people running for office, the article referred to Dr. Tran, a pediatrician , as Ms. Tran.
Someone commented that this might be because the editorial guidelines for addressing people for the NYT don't use Dr. unless in context of their clinical duties. However, this doctor is still currently a doctor and the article does talk about how she decided to run after going to work and meeting a child patient with brain cancer. It seems to me the article talked about her in the midst of her clinical duties and it owes it to her to call her doctor and not ms. And , in general, and unrelated to the articles I am referring to here, articles about women need to come out of hiding in the style section, which is another sore spot for me.
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" .. Just yesterday, I complained that, in an article about previously uninvolved people running for office, the article referred to Dr. Tran, a pediatrician , as Ms. Tran .."
Tran was being a *politician,* not a medical doctor. That's why. Those are two widely different areas.
2
Bing Ding Ow, but when male doctors run for office, they are often referred to by their honorific.
1
Hogwash. I have two doctors, both women. My primary care doctor is a woman, who happens to be incredibly competent. I have a specialist, another woman, who has been treating me for injuries to both feet that had me confined to a wheelchair. Thanks to her, I can sort of walk. She’s wonderful, a genius actually. Apparently, both of them are in such demand that the waiting period for an appointment is two months. I should have kept my mouth shut.
3
Mike, why do you label the article which accurately reflects research findings about women physicians as "hogwash" just because you have incredibly competent women physicians? Perhaps you would consider sharing the article with them and thanking them for their persistence and their wonderful, inspiring care for you despite the statistics.
28
I am a physician and a strong advocate for more female physicians for many reasons,and in their training they do feel more stress and depression then do their male counterparts during residency;however,it depends upon the specialties they chose.
Practice in dermatology,neurology,nephrology,research,etc. gives women physicians far more freedom for a happy home life than do other specialties.
In my experience women in those fields,feel and exude as much confidence as do men;therefore,they're treated with the same respect and deference by patients as do men.
And by their male colleagues as well.
Those specialty opportunities weren't always available to women but now that they are being a woman doctor isn't really so hard.
2
I think it is ridiculous to say that women should choose their specialties based upon how “easy” their practice life can be instead of what they actually love. How many amazing women physicians are being pushed away from general surgery, orthopedics, neurosurgery, etc due to this line of thinking? Women that potentially make great advances in the field....
As a medical student I was often told to stop pursuing surgery because being a mother and having a family would be difficult....however, maybe the system should change. Why should I spend 8 years of post high school learning and studying to do something I don’t have my heart 100% in? Women should be free to do whatever specialty they choose to do, just like men...and maybe the system should change to accommodate the growing number of women in the field.
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Would that it were this simple. Women physicians may exude all the confidence they want, but as the article specifically illustrates, they are not treated with the same respect and deference by patients and colleagues, either in the exam room or in the referral network or in the lecture circuit. And excuse me, but in addition to your tunnel vision about respect, what puts you in a position to determine whether being a woman doctor is hard? You may believe you are a strong advocate for women in medicine, but your comments show that you have great room for growth in this area.
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Melissa
I never said nor implied (as you did) that women physicians should not choose whatever specialty they desire. Having been in practice far longer than you I stated what I have observed.
Among the highest rates of suicides of women physicians are NOT those in fields I mentioned,but they certainly are in other fields.
In several other specialties with high suicide rates women almost double men in taking their lives
Those are facts. Check them.
You ARE free to choose whatever you want,but before doing so be wise and speak to those women already practicing.
Would they so choose again? Are they happy?
Good luck. Be smart.
1
I believe females make the best doctors. With that said it seems apparent females need ask themselves their own age old question, Can I have it all? Men couldn't take on so many knowingly responsibilities . I doubt the medical profession's physician responsibilities would lessen if a partner did all the home chores.
1
The best doctor is the smartest doctor regardless of gender.
8
If a man is a father and a doctor, people consider him normal. If a woman is a mother and a doctor, people accuse her of wanting to "have it all". Taking on the same "responsibilities" doesn't mean taking on the same chores.
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The sad fact is that often woman is biased against a woman. They do not realize their own potential and attribute their even moderate success to anybody (caring family, supportive husband, adorable kids, great in-laws) but themselves. Needless to say that this self-effacing attitude extend to other women as well. If they see another woman living for herself, she is lost to all good opinion while a self-serving man continues to enjoy all appreciations of having an independent streak. The hue and cry over women empowerment is only heard in select circles, which constitute an extremely small fraction of even working women. Though this can be an interesting coffee table topic, it won't mobilize the women in general.
1
I have been assuming that a physician/mother takes on more home and child care responsibilities by voluntary, mutual agreement with her partner.
I wonder if there is evidence that this is usually the case...or not?
To the extent that an unequal load is “shoved” onto to one partner by the significant other, it reflects dysfunction.
I wonder whether there is a difference between male and female physicians who are single parents (other parent having died)?
Obviously, such male female differences are not unique to the medical profession; is there a greater problem in medicine than in other time demanding occupations?
5
Stephen, it is very rare that working men and women actually share equal loads, even when the dads think that they do. Much has been written about the mental work that moms have to do, even when they work full time, such as keeping track of birthday parties, doctor appointments, etc. Eg, my husband and I both work full time professional jobs. Guess who took our kids to birthday parties last night and this morning? Guess who had to buy the birthday gifts? Guess who is handling the bulk of the Christmas shopping? Guess who handles preparing Thanksgiving? Guess who decorates the house for Christmas? Guess who stays home when one of the kids get sick? Etc, etc, etc. It doesn't happy because I "agreed" to anything of the sort with my husband; it happens because if I left it to him, it wouldn't get done.
11
I know of a physician "boss" who has multiple EEO complaints against him, all from women. Nothing whatsoever is done and he boasts about "winning". When will "me too" expand to encompass this kind of abuse?
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Dag, google "Larry Nasser." Res ipsa.
I understand from where these female doctors are coming. I have trouble getting my students and colleagues to call me Dr. X in my teaching. One student refused to call me Dr. X for several weeks. She insisted on calling me Ms. X. Some of my supervisors--who do not have PhDs--seem discomfited by my title, and so they introduce me by my first name. I think some supervisors, too, like to create collegiality by equalizing the backgrounds of their employees, by creating personal connections, and by not showing differences, but they still are less concerned about acknowledging a hierarchy with a male PhD than with a female PhD. And if I did spend the time and work to get a PhD, why shouldn't I be credited with the accomplishment with the title "Dr."? It's a hierarchy, but since I worked for this title, it is a meritocratic distinction.
23
The only people I call 'doctor' are medical personnel.
18
Hi Professor Cynthia, I am in your field, highly ranked. I have been trained to request use of Professor as opposed to Dr.. The terms Dr. and MD get confusing, and anyway, many MDs do not have Ph.Ds, and Ph.Ds are the superior degree, formally.
4
PhDs are the more superior degree? Who established that?
1
Women continue to bear the majority of household chores and childcare. In situations where a family is well-to-d-, as is likely the case for dual-physician households, getting a maid service to lessen household chores is completely doable and would free up a lot of time. I understand that this is, of course, not doable for a lot of households in the US but for those that can, there is no reason to spend 8+ hours on household chores that you can easily pay someone else to do. Having maid service is a very common practice in most parts of the world. A lot of professional women whom I know express that they need to do it all like somehow that actually means something. It doesn't mean anything when you can't take care of yourself or your mental and physical well-being. There is no pride in working 60-80 hour weeks, taking care of the kids, and doing all the chores. Chores (and likely cooking) can all be outsourced and there really isn't a reason why they shouldn't if you have the money to pay for it.
16
This is why the Cleveland Clinic has been such a good place to go for all my health care for 30 years. They are staffed with a high percentage of quality female physicians who have a supportive and intellectually stimulating environment for treating patients. Works well for them and for me!
2