I was a huge fan of Louis CK's. I have zero interest in any comeback from him. In fact, I will boycott any network that sponsors him. There are too many talented people in the world to tolerate abusers.
8
"I'm not talking about banishment. I’m talking about ceding the floor."
Nope, you're talking about banishment. You're talking about not caring about guilt or innocence; not caring about the magnitude of what was done; not caring about improvements people make to get better. This is gossip-driven mob rule.
You want me to pick a side? Are there only two? I won't pick the Weinsteins. But your side is also wrong. Will there be a third choice?
9
Well said.
20
I think the acts of these men across the biard are despicable and worthy of punishment... but they arent exactly equal.
I think you do have to look at CK and Weinstein differently
Here to me is the BIG difference... Louis CK came out and said "What these women are saying is true."... that HAS to make a difference...
When this came out he lost current and future gigs and he had his past revenue stream pulled from Netflix... i am not arguing against any of that... and if there are any criminal charges so be it... and when he is ordered to pay substantial amounts of money to those.women accusers.. i am fine with that too.
But... he admitted.it.and that HAS to be viewed differently.
I saw too many comments saying variations of 'stuff your alology' and 'not good enough'...
But... you have to lighten that and give him some credit.
Because he owned it.
And most don't.
You have to ask yourself what you want when these accusers come out... do you want the accused to own it and suffer the consequences or do you want them to hide and go through lawyers...
If you want the accused to own it then you have to give them some credit when they do...
Otherwise they would be smarter to hide behind lawyers... which meams they could get off... and then women will be more afraid to come forward.
If they admit it when accused, then you can expect more women to come forward.and take down the neanderthals... but you have to gibe them an out.
17
There are roughly 180,000,000 men in the US. 22 have been accused of sexual misconduct. I'm assuming the number is somewhat larger larger. But to publish this screed under the headline than "Men" require some correction is a bit, um, sloppy, reckless.
1 of every 15 black men is in prison. So do we conclude that "black men" are criminals? To reach the same proportion of men guilty of "sexual misconduct," one would have to prove (people in prison are there after a trial, the 22 so-far accused of sexual misconduct have not had any of the accusations evaluated) that 2,700,000 men have done so.
If we are against racial profiling, why does the Times promote gender profiling?
37
Yes, this is only the beginning - the real beginning of women finding their voices and speaking out, of being brave instead of fearful and helpless. My concern is that expectations are unreasonable - we're not really expecting a seismic change, are we? It's only the beginning. It's going to take a long time to see the kind of change we want to see. These men aren't going to disappear. They will still be among us, walking down the street, sitting next to us in class, behind us in the checkout line at Target. They're not going anywhere. While we're expecting these men to make changes, we need to make some changes ourselves. Real changes, not just snappy-social media-woman-power lip service.
Let's start by eliminating the bad behaviors we women exhibit toward each other - the slut shaming, body shaming, fighting over a guy, the gossiping, sleeping with someone else's husband, the backstabbing, I could go on and on. Let's work on being better women while we're drawing that line in the sand, demanding men to treat us with dignity and respect. Maybe if we raise our own bar, it won't take as long for men to do the same.
17
Men's hormones may get out of control. The real problem is cover ups and abuse of power. Women are threatened with job or career damage.
5
Many women through my life have showed meof their own initiative their cleavage, backs and legs, shaken their bodies, and batted their eyelashes many times to get my money. Is there any of those fake -feminist-women-fighting-for equality complaining about that?
15
25.000.000 women voted for Donald J. Trump. Good luck in changing the environment in which we live if 1/2 of your sex doesn't take your point of view.
10
Most of the male commenters here are threatening us which is part and parcel of why we are so angry!
24
Where are the calls for Donald Trump to resign over his sexual improprieties?
19
let's talk about the role women play.
woman like manly man. they don't go for the nice guy. nor the quite guy. they like the aggressive and ghe strong.
women need to think about how they choose to reproduce. they play a huge role in how man behave.
you like the strong, manly, aggressive, then this is what you get.
this is what you've raised. this is who you reward in society. they are successful for a reason and they seek power and money to have you, women. so think about it next time you date and reproduce.
13
I'm a man and I have no problem with lasting consequences for men who harass women. These men aren't owed fame and stardom, and losing for harassing women is not an onerous punishment. Most men live just fine without TV specials and writing jobs. As for me, I don't get handsy with women and I don't whip out my penis at work and I never have. I'm amazed by how many men have done this! It's not too much to ask.
46
I like justice, of the legal kind.
Harvey Weinstein (if the rape accusations are upheld in court) a criminal and he should go to prison. 20 years sounds good to me.
Al Franken (the accusations are true) did not violate a criminal statue. Maybe there should be such a statute. And he should "disappear," but not go to prison (in my opinion).
We could go through all of them with the criminal code in mind. It might be more realistic.
7
It's not enough that those who did the deeds are punished. Next come the higher ups, the people who knew and did NOTHING! A day of reckoning...
6
Given that men are now guilty until proven innocent, it looks like the Pence rule is the only way to reliably keep your job.
11
How incredibly short-sighted and stupid. I am married and we have a daughter (no sons). We literally never went out a single night without her until she was 13. She is the most important thing in our lives. Do I want her harassed absolutely not? If anyone hurt her I would want to watch them die a very slow painful death. However, society does not allow that. The type of overreaction you are sanctioning is either going to result in women being completely shut out (why would men run the risk in the future of promoting women to have them make false accusation which will be believed even though people suspect their false) or create the same type of resentment that affirmative action creates. If you believe we live in a patriarchal society it would be more effective to accomplish change gradually. Immediate change will cause a backlash and the pendulum to swing the other way.
11
Atticus Finch would be a very unpopular man in the current socio-politico environment in the asphaltic, blue urban islands.
5
We absolutely cannot lump all men together. That's so wrong. Sure, sexually harassing women is wrong, believe me, I understand that you want revenge for all the times women have been wronged; but it doesn't change the fact that most men aren't as bad as men like Harvey Weinstein and Al Franken and therefore they shouldn't be punished as harshly. Simply because a few men did something very wrong, doesn't mean you can paint all men as evil creatures. I wholeheartedly support the women speaking out against the men who have wronged them. They deserve to be heard and the men that wronged them deserve to be punished. All I'm saying is that not all men are to blame.
11
"Choosing consequences" apparently doesn't belong to men any more. So... does it "belong to women" in any meaningful way?
There's lots of apocalyptic rhetoric flying around that's made everyone feel like they can control something, anything, amid the actual apocalypse taking place in their country that they can in no way control. Not sure why women feel the need - or feel justified! - in victimising "men" to make themselves feel like there's something they can control.
But rhetoric aside, is there a literal sense in which "choosing consequences" belonged to "men" before and belongs to "women" now? Is there a literal sense in which "men" (whoever we are) need Amber Tamblyn's permission to be redeemed? Or in which anyone is responsible for Harvey Weinstein other than Harvey Weinstein and the women he assaulted?
What does any of this actually mean? "Men" didn't choose consequences before, "women" don't now. Courts of law can go ahead and choose consequences, if it gets that far; anything short of that is a lynch mob. Individual men and women will go on living. Let's hope they go on living together, because they'll need each other in the years to come, and because life is better together. In the meantime, what do you say we quit the meaningless antagonism?
4
If I were a woman, or moreover: a militant Feminist, I would take it easy with the ludicrous accusations defining every man as a serial harasser, and every woman as a victim by nature, especially if the very weak evidence we're working on is what we've seen in the current witch hunt. If women are a homogenous group characterized by victimhood, as Tamblyn oversimplifies, Crystal Mangum (the Duke Lacrosse accuser), Tawana Brawley, Sabrina Rubin Erdely complicitly reporting on the manufactured story of "Jackie' (UVA), and all the other false accusers should likewise be the metric by which the credibility of female accusers is ascertained. And maybe we should take those who said nothing for decades because they were hoping for hush money or a role in a movie for what they actually are: opportunists, not victims with temporary (and conditional) amnesia.
It's also interesting that the men traumatizing women with their gaze or their uncalled-for compliments are all in positions of power, and wealthy, or male colleagues competing for the same positions. Apparently, janitors and men on scaffoldings are all gentlemanly fellows with Victorian manners - or just not worth getting out of the way for that upcoming promotion, or wealthy enough to extort money from.
15
Of all the men who say with such concern, "Let's not let innocent men get swept up in the rush to judgment," I ask this: How many times have you said, "Let's not let innocent women get raped, harassed, intimidated, beaten, silenced." Seriously, guys, how many?
40
You seem to have little consideration as to whether someone is guilty or not. Men are not judged for the shame of Lauer/Weinstein et al anymore than women are judged for the shame of the Jackie hoax or Tawana Braley.
5
I'm certain Amber has never heard of Robespierre.
7
Beware of your own absolutism. When you alienate, silence, or coerce moderate dissenting voices, you only legitimize the fringes.
7
I think part of the problem is that there is no justice around sexual harassment and abuse. There has never been anything like justice for the women who were harmed and that was OK with society.
And now, because we never set up a just system when it was women on the receiving end, there is not a just system for men.
And some of us will suffer injustice and have our lives ruined because we let that happen to women.
8
She might just have well written "I am the Robespierre of this movement"
6
Thanks for the opinion.
I have been waiting for men to be held accountable for about fifty years. One moment I feel rage that it took so long, another relief men are being put on notice, although I must say, since I am no longer young, the problem of harassment is mostly old wounds and the scar tissue.
But earlier today, one man tried to convince me it was wrong for me to be angry anything related to harassment. The longer I spoke to him, the angrier I got. The angrier I got, the crazier he told me I was. It is clear that some men may never be able to face up to the damage some men do. Earlier in the week, another man had said, he wouldn't listen to women talk about harassment because they always became so angry.
I am certainly not ready for serial harassers to get a quick pass or to ignore other men calling our anger our problem.
Fortunately, there are others who never participated in harassment, others who learned the error of their ways, and others who love women who have been wounded.
12
For centuries the maxim of the law has been, "It is better that 10 guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer". Judging by the current dialog on sexual offenses, that formulation is out the window, replaced with a vox populi rendering of instantaneous guilt and if some innocents are crushed by false allegations well, that's just acceptable collateral damage. Unless, of course, you happen to be one of the innocents.
Are there numerous cases of sexual assault and predation? Without a doubt. But surely there is a spectrum of offenses from the trivial to the depraved that makes a "one size fits all" approach unfair. And the more rapid the rush to judgment the more likely it is that untrue or exaggerated accusations will result in damage to innocents.
It's just too easy to destroy someone for any reason - petty, profound or partisan - by just making an accusation. I'm reminded of the mob clamoring for the heads of the Duke lacrosse team because of the "obviously true" sexual assault charges against them. Ooopsie....total fraud. But it took years for them to get their good names back and in the interim they were essentially exiled from society. And there are many more such false cases. And there will be many more.
Right now this whole thing is spinning out of control like the Salem witch trials where just to be accused was enough to get you burned at the stake, drowned or hanged. Hopefully a more balanced perspective will re-assert itself soon.
7
I fully agree! Thank you fire articulating what I've been struggling too express.
4
As an average middle-class woman in my early 40s I have plenty of traumatizing stories I could share under #metoo. As do all of my female, and some of my male, friends.
As I watch this moment our culture is in - when there are beginning to be some real consequences for sexual violence - some small part of me is feeling a nascent hope, a sense of awe blooming within a larger sense of disbelief.
Is it possible that people are really starting to care about the sexual violence that most women endure? (So much violence that way too many women normalize and diminish and excuse it.) Are we actually being seen? Could our culture be finally admitting both how traumatizing and commonplace sexual violence is??? I have been so long expected to carry and heal the scars of sexual assault mostly on my own (and certainly with help only given in private quarters) that I am an incredulous, tentative, disbelieving watcher of this new possibility that our culture may actually take a meaningful stand against sexual violence.
The bigger part of me thinks that this is not a sea change, but rather a tiny crack, and a possible foreshadowing of a sea change yet to come. We are too used to excusing and idolizing predatory men. We are too attached to the rules of power as we've known them - more worried about a fictional future scenario where a man gets falsely accused, then we are about the many real women who are hurting now.
26
What a powerful response to this situation. I totally agree.
2
Pretty hard to tell where all of this is going. Certainly a lot of male heads rolling now, and thus far there have been few concerns that many of the allegations are fabricated. This is probably because many of those accused are fully dependent on public acceptance, entertainers or politicians. Sadly, as many have pointed out recently, laws against sexual harassment are actually bizarrely forgiving. They have been made fully toothless by the many cases argued over the years before a largely accepting male judiciary. Of the many who have been fired recently, probably none could have been punished if a judicial decision was required rather than rapid action by a publicity averse theater, news organization or elected body. What then is the remedy for those who work for housing authorities, supermarkets, bus companies, etc. Such people will likely continue to get fired following any allegations they make. A related problem is that the abuse seems so widespread that it may take millions of allegations to begin to affect even a fraction of abusers. If something permanent is to change I think it necessary that we begin to modify our laws now. Defending the rights of the accused remains a problem, possibly so intractable a problem that we will be unable to make progress even at this very promising time.
3
I'm waiting to see who the first WOMAN accused of sexual misconduct, sexual harassment is.
This is not exclusive to men, though more common among men because men have more power in the workplace by shear numbers.
The problem is power and how it corrupts. Let us NAME the first woman to the list of the offenders so we can see the cause and not blame a gender.
3
Fifty years ago my fiancé was fondled by a member of the medical profession while under anesthesia. She told me about it, I confronted the offender and the behavior stopped for her. I really don't know if my actions would be acceptable today, or would I just be labelled a chauvinist. But even if I were labelled, I would take the same action, and I encourage other men to do the same should any of their loved ones be victims of sexual harassment.
1
I agree with so many of these comments on both sides - and here is why. I was sexually harassed numerous times over the years, and so was my husband as a young man - by older women! I personally know of a friend's handsome son in working in the LA production market who is harassed by men and women. One of his female producers basically tried to pimp him out to fellow female divorcee producer. So now I'm wondering if the second wave yet to come in this horrible chapter is the fall of female executives who have abused their power.
1
This women does not believe in justice at all. She believes in mob rule reminiscent of the Reign of Terror in post-Revolution France. What she is doing will harm victims of rape, assault and harassment. It will harm the lives of ordinary women, because the once-great-and-powerful men that rule the world are going to be afraid to even speak to them. Zero tolerance policies are always destructive--just look at the so-called justice system. The only thing there should be no tolerance for is intolerance. The last sentence in this piece should be better understood as: "Pick a side. Choose us. OR ELSE..."
Well I've picked a side: I am against rape, assault and harassment but I am for tolerance, moderation, liberty and justice for everyone.
3
Well-said, Amber. I'm with you. Some of the backlash here is willful ignorance, and shows so clearly how far we have to go. Thank you for voicing this.
10
“What’s the ultimate thing you would want to happen to him, for what he did? That he never works in this business again?” The woman said, simply: “Yes. That’s the price you pay.”
This man is disturbed that the ruining of a career for sexual misconduct is the price - yet in many of the cases cited in the news lately, that is what the perpetrator threatened or at least implied.
It IS terrifying isn't it?
20
It's only been six weeks since the Weinstein story broke. Certainly, a number of high profile men have been called out on their behavior and paid a steep price. But six weeks is hardly a revolution, and the main focus has been on highly paid, privileged men in a highly paid work environment that's vastly different from what most of us work and live in. This is a gesture It's a small start. A very small start at the .001 top of the iceberg.
6
Anytime we make broad generalizations about a huge group of people and situations, we are bound to overstate the case some of the time. So it is that the gradations of culpability are glossed over and Garrison Keillor is lumped in with Harvey Weinstein. These gradations tied to context, intention, degree of intrusiveness, degree of coercion, degree of consent, etc. really matter. I respect women's rage over violence, coercion and general disrespect, but an over-inclusive, one size fits all reaction will cause too many men to reject the validity of the complaint and provides an excuse to ignore the soul-searching that does need to happen if men are going to change.
2
Yep. Good piece and excellent points. The only other thing I would add is that men shouldn't have to think about the "women who are their wives, daughters, mothers and friends sitting next to them" in order to do the right thing.
24
I live in Vallejo, not Berkeley. I am really disturbed by this sexual harassment issue. Masturbating in front of women, rape, of course, a boss threatening his staff with termination if his demands for sex are not met—and not the same as a squeeze of a hand or an arm on the back. At my senior gym class this morning a kind and warm man affectionately put his hand on my not-bare back and gave a little pat/rub. I know it was genuine caring and affection—I know it in my core (which I was trying to exercise!). I liked it! A man in a smallish town I lived in whom I would run into and we would walk together for a while kissed me on the mouth, out of the blue. I was not happy about it, but I knew that he was a good person but sometimes crossed boundaries in a small way. If we were co-workers I would think it was overkill to fire him. Men can be jerks and suffer from what I call TMT—Too Much Testosterone. But most of them are basically good people who if asked to desist from such behavior would apologize and quit being a jerk! Relationships (of all kinds) are so complicated, complex, difficult, confusing and a rush to very strict judgment/punishment is not always the way to go.
12
You have set your limits where you choose, which is your right. Other women may choose to set their bar lower, even at zero tolerance of undesired male acts. That's a natural right that unfortunately women have had to fight for.
5
The women's revolution of the 60s has yet to be perfected and is being resisted by us white males. Witness the continuance of pay disparity and predatory sexual behavior the communicates unequal status. The young and older women of America need to march and demand and resist as they did shortly after the "gross man" was elected. After that, root out the egregious blow-hards. Fail at this and you fail.
14
The punishment is “you disappear”? Funny, but I don’t see Roy Moore or the President disappearing. They won’t....because the simple fact is that this is a delicious civil war on the left which is now eating itself alive. Franklin and Conyers are history though. How many conservatives do you think worry about how uncomfortable a bunch of squishy liberal men are now? Try zero. This is the best “popcorn moment” we’ve had yet.
12
I disagree that we are in the middle of salvation for women, or even in the beginning stages. We are not even close. It only takes reading a few comments here to see that some men are reacting to this outpouring of very valid grievances by women with anger. One even said he voted for Hillary, but may never vote for another woman. That is not the reaction of somebody who understands what women have gone through. That is the reaction of somebody who thinks women need to be put back in their place.
The absolute horror show that is our nation right now has, on one hand, a number of famous men being fired for their offenses. But on the other hand, we have a group of law makers sitting in Washington DC who still think they have the right to decide what a woman does with her body. The sham of the last attempt to reform healthcare brought this out in full view.
Without question this argument will illicit a response from a man who will ask, ‘Why should you be able to do what you want with your body when I can’t whip out my privates when I want?’ And all this will show is that some....maybe many.....maybe even most.....men do not understand what women have experienced.
But I could also argue that many if not most women have not even begun to come to terms with what they have experienced either. I know I haven’t. But what has happened over the past couple of months is making me think about it more than I have in years. But that isn’t salvation. Not yet.
49
Your comment is both deep and true.
2
Yes, absolutely!
3
let the trials begin! Where is Joe McCarthy when we need him? So let's start rehearsing..."Are you now or have you ever been male?" Guilty Guilty Guilty.
Let's start some black lists. OH what fun it is to ride.
14
Makes you wonder what some forward thinking progressive males will do to avoid being found out.
2
This is easy, fire them but do it faster, once there is proof. You need to finally send a message, this is behavior of a sexual predator, and it's disgusting.
5
We need to 'out' rapists, pedophiles, and men who demand sex as a condition of employment. But women should be able to navigate the butt patters. That's not assault. What happened to a nice indignant slap across the face? And the Keillor thing is just baffling.
2
This Man needs no redemption, and many of these individuals need to be in prison for a long time, not just have their careers ended. They are wealthy, so they don't need a job and if they do jobs that illegals do is a great opportunity. Many men would take drastic action against such if their loved ones were abused, they are lucky to be alive in some regards.
6
What about Trump?
13
So much hand wringing on behalf of these poor men. The tropes write themselves. They deserve to be forgiven. Let those who are without sin cast the first stone. Why should these poor men be made to suffer for the rest of their lives? And on and on.
I don't have the slightest sympathy for any of them. I was raped and nearly stabbed to death over forty years ago. I was a young woman barely twenty years old. My "mistake" was simply walking out of a restaurant and to my car one night, when two men grabbed me in a parking lot, dragged me to an adjacent construction pit (that wasn't visible from the street), and raped me at knifepoint. I wasn't dressed "provocatively" -- I was wearing jeans and a long-sleeved t-shirt. These were total strangers -- this was not a date rape situation. The blade pressed into my neck. The disgusting assault. The sickening sense of violation -- these are memories that are seared into my brain. Somehow I managed to live through an assault that is so horrific that I cannot even speak of it today, without becoming ill.
This is what I've had to live with these past forty years. I haven't had one instance of feeling safe or secure since that night. This has been my life for over forty years now. Feel sorry for male abusers? You have got to be kidding me.
50
Oh god, I hear you. The suffering lasts a lifetime. We spend our whole lives trying to find safety after these experiences.
7
But your President can stay ?
3
Absolutely not! Many of us want him gone. He is very clearly a predator.
5
I am a man and I am not in the need for Amber Tamblin’s redemption. There are some bad people out there. Some of them are men. Some of them are women. A plague on all of them. Particularly the self righteousness blowhards.
Incidentally, who is Amber Tamblin?
14
A better question might be, who is Golem18? And why does he think we care?
10
"Do you believe in redemption"?
No, because redemption doesn't work. Look at all the hypocritical Republican politicians and church leaders who've been caught lying and cheating. They asked for forgiveness, their stupid flocks forgave them, and now they're all back on top again, having not changed one bit.
7
Maybe its time for the men of America to come forward and out women with their stories of wallet groping.
9
I get so sick of hearing the response of some men (include some of the commenters on this site) who pretend that innocent men everywhere need to be fearful about the current exposure of pervs like Lauer, Weinstein, etc. It's disingenuous baloney, and they know it.
We all know--men and women--when we are doing something sexual with a person who never agreed to it, never even participated in its initiation. So, fellas, please just quit pretending that sexual abuse and harassment is some kind of mystery that well-intentioned men might accidentally commit.
All I can assume is that some men are hoping we women will back down and shut up. Ladies, don't back down, and don't shut up. And guys, enough with the fake innocence and fear. None of us are buying it.
And to the male commenter on this site who said that he once dated a crazy woman, and now fears that she might, in her craziness, accuse him of sexual abuse: for that matter, she might show up and punch you in the face, or steal your wallet, or egg your house, or slash your tires. That's what crazy people do. But how does it relate to this discussion?
EVERY woman I know has experienced, at least once, and in most cases many times, the kind of abuse we hear was committed by Lauer, O'Reilly, etc. Think about that, guys, and then just shut up and LISTEN for once.
46
Exactly. And I think this is where the defensiveness comes in. Men who consider themselves good. Good husbands, fathers, friends, and employers. I would say the vast majority of them at one point or another pressed their boundaries. Cat called a woman. Pushed ahead with sex when she seemed reluctant. Cheated on a spouse. Hit on a woman at work. Very few men have not, at some point, done something that he is not now looking back in through a new lens. We're just tired, men. We're tired. And fed up. We're done, I tell you. Done. We just want to move through the world without a constant, nagging, low-grade fear.
7
Nthing a million times. You said it, EB!
2
Save your lecture. I don't look to anyone from Hollywood for moral guidance.
7
"You can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs." Mao Zedong said that. You realize, of course, that you are employing the same tactics that you no doubt claim to deplore in China.
4
This article shows quite clearly that this isn't just about sexual harassment, it's about vengeance, and it's ugly all around.
12
No, puppy: It's called overdue Justice. The fact that we are happy about it has nothing to do with vengeance, and everything to do with relief.
11
I think the following paragraph from a comment presents the issue of the hypocrisy of Ms Tamblyn and her inquisition fellows very clearly, as she put all men in the same sack for punishment and humillation:
It is hypocritical to blame Al Franken for his vaudevillian shenanigans on the USO tour without acknowledging that the reason his victim was on the tour in the first place was because she was sexually attractive and that our fighting men deserved a little “eye candy”. What, really, is the difference between Franken miming grabbing her breasts as a joke and the woman’s using her sexuality to arouse the troops? I sincerely doubt that the act they performed for the troops contained no sexual innuendo.
12
Wow, you're really perfecting the she-asked-for-it trope. Impressive.
7
Who besides this mysterious "male writer" is it among men that's clamoring for the redemption of Harvey Weinstein, Louis CMyWeenie, and Al Franken? My experience so far, among the real people as well as the online apparitions that seem to be real people, is that such men are few and far between. I think this author is exaggerating to make her hardline anger appear better motivated.
9
Exaggerating. Even...histrionic? Maybe she was just on her period that day and hallucinated the whole conversation. Seriously, why are these comments full of dismissive, diminishing statements from men? Clearly you DON'T stand with women, if this is how you respond to this article.
6
Every right that women and minorities enjoy were conceded to them by white men.
Tell me how backing them into a corner and making them the enemy won't make them reconsider all this?
4
No, every right women and people of color have were wrenched through decades of literal blood, sweat, and tears from vengeful, selfish, and cruel hands of white men.
If history is our guide, the white patriarchy has not made any voluntary concessions to inherent equality of all human beings.
5
Rights are endowed to us by our creator, not white men. I know that some white men have some hubris but they're not God.
Black men and black women had to fight for our rights.
2
Funny - the majority of American men I know are victims of a violent, bloody sexual assault more brutal than anything we've heard from Hollywood. Only we insist they must be grateful to have endured this assault, due to its "benefits." Then after normalizing this sexual violence against them, we berate those men for their supposed complicity in the normalization of sexual violence - against women.
The utter emptiness, hypocrisy, and sexism of #MeToo is exemplified by its callous indifference to one of the most public, most ubiquitous, and most permanent forms of sexual assault - genital mutilation.
5
I think the following paragraph from a comment presents the issue of Ms Tamblyn, with a PhD from Entertainment Weekly, and her inquisition fellows very clearly, as she put all men in the same sack for punishment and humillation:
It is hypocritical to blame Al Franken for his vaudevillian shenanigans on the USO tour without acknowledging that the reason his victim was on the tour in the first place was because she was sexually attractive and that our fighting men deserved a little “eye candy”. What, really, is the difference between Franken miming grabbing her breasts as a joke and the woman’s using her sexuality to arouse the troops? I sincerely doubt that the act they performed for the troops contained no sexual innuendo.
5
Good for Amber. She states what many women feel. We have been willing for generations to throw away countless women's careers and shame the ones brave enough to come forward. Now that so many are coming forward, women don't feel like they have to suffer this abuse in silence. I don't believe Amber nor any women I know are saying "too bad if innocent men get accused". It would always be sad to have innocent men falsely accused. Buy certainly not any sadder than the countless women who have been disbelieved and shamed and lost their jobs/careers because of abuse in the past.
13
When will men and this culture of toxic masculinity be redeemed?
When there is no pay gap between women and men.
And when women represent half of the senators and representatives and governors and mayors of this nation.
And when women have an equal voice and platform with men. (As much as I think Stephen Colbert seems like such a nice guy, if you do a count of how many women guests he has on his show each week, consistently the men outnumber the women. Why is this? Because we live in a toxic patriarchy and what men do and say is naturally deemed more noteworthy than what women do and say.)
Get to work men if you want to be redeemed.
9
And if one does not need to be redeemed? We can keep the toxic patriarchy?
1
And men bear half the babies.
I wonder how all of this is perceived in China, India, Russia, Africa, South America or the Middle East--parts of the world where women are even more powerless. Are women there inspired by the rage of American women, or do they see this as an impediment to the limited progress they are trying to achieve? Are they concerned about the reaction this might engender in their own countries?
This should not, I think, discredit the current movement, but it might chasten it to conform to democratic norms--i.e. punishment of the guilty, acquittal of the innocent.
1
First, I doubt anyone is getting fired for the first accusation. There is probably already an official warning in the records or a private settlement that no one is reporting. So men, if you're innocent, don't stress.
Second, I am not aware, so please forgive me if I'm wrong, of a single instance of anyone stepping down or publicly apologizing before or without an accusation. Without that, or other evidence of a shift towards self-policing it is natural for women to still wonder what is yet to be disclosed. and to withhold that trust a little longer.
7
I choose the side that proclaims innocent until proven guilty, using facts and evidence and reason. I am against the side that claims guilty until proven innocent, using fear and feelings.
8
These guys will need redemption, with their spouses, children, family, and friends. If they never work again, I'm very OK with that.
Honestly, I don't know how you would ever be able to see these guys without thinking about all the gross and hurtful things they did to others. Who wants to watch that?
5
As a man who has spent my life concerned with the abuse of power & it's effect on the those who've been abused, I'm proud of the women (& men) who have found the courage to come forward & speak out against the sexual abuse they've been forced to endure & the humiliation, shame & pain which has haunted them over the years since the abuses took place.
Men (& women) of power who have acted so cavalierly towards people in weaker positions have come to believe they're immune to punishment for their behavior & crimes. It's only fitting they should now suffer the pain & humiliation, shame & embarrassment they've caused their victims for so long.
Should all men in this category suffer equally when their actions may be widely differently? I think not. However redemption must be earned. Apology is an ongoing event. There's no reason to expect an apology has to be accepted. It does not. Repentance & atonement are part of a process. Only through consistent change over a period of time can trust be rebuilt. Redemption isn't guaranteed.
So what of the man (or woman) falsely accused of such behaviors. Somehow this isn't an area in today's charged climate where exoneration is a likely outcome.
3
AS a young lawyer I interviewed with the law firm of a famous and infamous congressman, Biaggi, to work doing matrimonials. I was told it was just about, standard procedure, for a woman client to arrange for her brother or a friend to punch her in the eye, so she could go before a judge and claim that her husband did it. She would get an ex-parte order removing her husband from the home. This would result in her having a favorable position when she commences the divorce; usually when the divorce papers and the ex-parte order are served on the husband. I NEVER did anything like that as an attorney, though i have been asked to about 4-5 times. I believe 90% or more of domestic abuse victims. Wome are equal to men and can be equally mendacious.
4
I have no sympathy for wealthy male public figures who come crashing down after a pattern of harassment has been uncovered. Charlie Rose was a lousy interviewer anyways. Matt Lauer's nice guy image turns out to have a career-ending caveat. Then again no plaudits are deserved for companies that do the ditching. They're looking at the bottom line, not changes needed to the HR manual and the hidden cultures. Change is being forced on them and hopefully they will adapt in ways that makes it better.
1
A percentage of the claims will turn out to be completely false, and even more will be seen as exaggerated. Let's say it's 1% of the claims are false. The more people who are vilified via simple accusation (exactly what our legal system is supposed to protect you from) increases the likelihood of that 1% trigger.
It's a modern fable, The Girl Who Cried Wolf.
8
The legal system works for when these accusations are brought in court. It has nothing to do with when women tell their stories and men lose their prominent public positions. When we start throwing men in jail for unproven accusations I may agree with you. The nature of these kinds of actions is that they are not done in front of others. That is why NYT and others look for corroboration of the stories from others at the time of the event. They do not print every accusation. On the other had, one has to wonder why it is so easy to toss aside the 90% of women who never come forward with accusations when it is so intolerable for a possible 1% of false accusations.
3
The girl who cried "he grabbed me through my flak jacket" to Fox.
1
Thank you Ms Tamblyn, you speak for me. I am 65.
10
I was molested by my recently married stepfather when I was 14. Even though I told several adults I was discredited and eventually ostracized from the family, and supporting my younger sister by the time I was 16. I'm not objective. I think society needs to think long and hard about the role sex plays in the lives of women and just how deeply that stinky goo stick to the fabric of social injustice. Is it such a far cry from the workplace understand this logic is far-reaching?
Not every man out there is going to jail right now. Not every politician is being asked to resign. The overwhelming, vast, majority of men do not use sex as a power tool. Unfortunately, it still too many and unacceptable.
Remember that President Carter pardon Peter Yarrow, (of Peter, Paul, and Mary), who was imprisoned for indecent behavior with a 14-year-old and Peter now works with children. Why isn't he working with pedophiles instead?
Society shouldn't ignore the contributions made by talented people and there are different levels of assault, however, I believe today we err on the side not addressing the problem at all. These guys still don't think it's a very big deal.
17
I am really lucky to never have been subjected to any sexual harassment other than mildly crude language of a few of my college classmates, a few stuck-in-adolescence coworkers, both decades ago and readily quashed by me on the spot. But I am feeling a certain amount of schadenfreude reveling in the squashing of these famous and/or powerful men whose reprehensible speech and actions have come home to roost, stripping them of career and power as they did to so many women when they thought that they would never be held to account.
Redemption? No, not yet. Not for quite some time, my schadenfreude has not yet run its course...
14
What I find amazing about this discussion is this whole issue is really only arising in 3 industries: media, show business and the legislature. Most of us in the real world have already adjusted to understanding and preventing Sexual Harassment. We have traiing every year on what is and is not appropriate and have been doing this for most of my 30+ year career. I am sorry these industires hav ebeen exempt from this reality, but I for one am getting tired of all men being tarred withthe same brush as people in a few highly pampered and privileged professions.
8
Oh please. We've only hit the tip of the iceberg. Sexual harassment is rampant in the restaurant and hotel industries, hopitals, academia, etc. The only reason we're not hearing about it yet is because women can't afford to lose that paycheck.
7
If you think your industry is free from harassment because you take classes every year, you are sorely mistaken. Not "all men" have been tarred, that's a lie you are borrowing to paint yourself as a victim. Maybe the current environment makes you discomfited. Still: you don't get to be a victim here, and you don't get to blame victims of tarring you.
6
You realize of course men or I should say gentlemen, doesn't treat women that way. It only seems to happen where boys are not made to be men. There is no such thing as toxic masculinity only toxic cultures that does not teach boys to be men.
9
I am a cute young thing who has ambitions of movie stardom. I am stepping into the office of a big-time Hollywood producer.
HE: "Yes, Miss Buxom, please have a seat. And, what can I do for you?"
SHE: "Well, I believe I have some potential as a film actor. I certainly need an agent, along with considerable coaching. It is my hope that you will find it in your heart to help me along the way..."
HE: You are an attractive person with a fine speaking voice, but sad to say, we have bushels of of good starting material around this village. To put it bluntly, You are asking me to invest considerable resources in your career....etc...AND, at any point you may choose to jump ship, return to Indiana, and marry your garage mechanic.
I understand what you wish me to do for you. There are possibilities. But...
WHAT WILL YOU DO FOR ME ?
1
The last time I saw an issue harped on so incessantly by the Times Op-Ed section, it was during the run-up to the Iraq War.
Didn't like it then, don't like it now
It's pretty clear that there is a cache of accusations already lined up and waiting for release according to a schedule. And it's also clear that there's an Op-Ed or two lined up to accompany the accusation.
That kind of manipulation is unwelcome in any form.
12
Any man who eagerly seeks redemption from women is simply once again putting the burden on women. Instead of going after redemption, why not put your energy into going after your fellow bullies? Stop counting on the sweet salvation of women and take a chance on getting angry responses from guys who expect you to give them a pass.
18
Can’t go after my fellow bullies because I don’t see myself as a bully.
Nevertheless:
Have some self-respect, guys. It’s pathetic to pursue a woman who has said no. And why mess up a relationship with a woman you can talk to or work with if the chemistry for romance isn’t there?
Catcalling or otherwise making a woman fearful is also pathetic.
If you want to be empowered then do your best to make something of yourself; don’t date a woman who won’t signal she’s interested in you; when you’re in a romantic relationship insist for her sake and for your sake that she’s equally responsible for the relationship and that you’re equally responsible for the relationship, and insist on open and straightforward communication between the two of you.
And if the chemistry is there, she won’t be perfect and you’re not perfect and that’s likely going to lead to heartburn or heartbreak - wish I had better news about that.
4
It's not that I am not ready for the redemption of men, it's that men don't need redemption. Sorry, but almost no men do the sorts of things Louis CK did. It never even occurred to me to do anything like that. In act, I don't get Al Franken. As a man, I do not know a man who has ever done these things. I think Ms. Tamblyn really meant that this is no time for redemption for overpaid narcissistic powerbrokers. If she really meant all men, she will find that salvation for women cannot be won by slandering most men. Misandry is not the cure for misogyny.
12
You do know men who have done these things. They simply have not shared their experiences with you. So many of these men are double-lifers, putting on the pillar-of-society face to those who might disapprove, and sharing their "scores" only with like-minded men. Sexual harassment and assault are far more widespread than you think.
10
You really have no grounds to say that.
I'm sick to death of generalizations about men. (Also about women, liberals, conservatives, Democrats, Republicans, so-called "elites," white people, black people, you name it.) Listen, lady, I'm a man, I haven't done anything wrong, and I don't need "redemption." Take a hike.
25
Your male friend is a coward, and embarrassingly so.
He wants redemption in the same way middle-class white people want "the drug problem" to suddenly be taken as a serious affliction worthy of empathy and respect: when minorities were the afflicted in the 80's and 90's, these same people were calling for the *death penalty* for drug addicts, and now (of course) they want to talk about second chances and redemption.
Let's have a few decades of housecleaning first...it will be instructive for men, a service really.
15
This specific injustice has been happening since our species has walked upright. It is less about sexuality than it is about power. On the one hand, one can think: FINALLY. On the other hand, one can wonder when/where this will end: will it be over in 6 months? And what might that look like? Will we go back to the previous status quo? Or will we have a forum where a woman can simply ruin a man's career with a tweet? Do we really believe that tit-for-tat will now end? Or will it now be expected as an offer on the "tit" side than a request on the "tat" side. And is that okay with everybody? Are we to pass this whole theory downwards through the academic world (OMG: it will never end THERE), and the business world? You make me laugh if you think this is limited to media and political jobs. Is there an avenue of atonement for some, but not for others? Is is okay if you don't hold a media job?
People need to be educated on the difference between sexual harassment vs. sexual misconduct; and that neither of these pertains to a single sexual advance that is unwelcome (which should not be punishable by ostricization), particularly if it is placed in personal context. Should we not disallow "a man ran his hand up my thigh during dinner" from these conversations/accusations? Do we really believe that women in power (or seeking power) do not abuse others sexually? And: okay, everybody. Talk about it. Shout about it. Whatever. But we need to be careful what conclusions we come to.
2
If some men are pigs, and yes most definitely they are out there, what does it say about the Women who spoke out to other women and yet were told "that's Harvey being Harvey, or Matt being Matt". The Angelina's, the Gwyneth's, and the Streeps of the world were surely powerful enough to speak out at some time over the 20+ years that these animals had been doing what they do. Even as this social crisis unfolds our country's leadership is picking and choosing who gets political cover or not.
It's sounds to me that women like the revolution only when it's their kind of war also.
6
AMBER TAMBLYN Is not ready for the redemption of men? What makes her think that as a woman she, herself, is worthy of redemption? Who set her up as judge and jury over people who have not perpetrated a crime against her. None of the crimes perpetrated by the abuse of their positions of power is at the level of crimes against humanity that could be taken to the World Court. Yes, what the accused men did was horrible. Justice has been administered with, to paraphrase the Battle Hymn of the Republic, a Terrible Swift Sword. Amber, if you're so interested in seeing men do things properly remember two things: 1) all men were brought into the world by females and, thus, owe them there very existence and 2) if you're not a part of the solution, you're part of the problem. There was a case in Britain where a young girl killed two young boys, As it happened, her mother was a prostitute who had forced the daughter (who murdered the boys) to perform oral sex on her "clients," causing the daughter to feel as if she were being strangled to death. Society has forgiven the abused daughter; she herself is a caring mother, believe it or not. Amber, I ask you: What have you done to show that you have earned the right to condemn others? Or to redeem yourself from others? Let's face it, nobody gets into your professions without paying a very high price. How have you treated your subordinates? Have you ever abused your power? I challenge to answer these questions publicly!
9
Who is Amber Tamblyn and why does the NYT keeping printing her opinion pieces? I don't know who her "friend" on the couch was (or if she even exists) but her views are ignorant, dangerous and immature. No, all such behaviors should not be lumped together. Do you treat the person who steals a candy bar the same as someone who commits armed robbery? Why not, both are thieves. Of course not, because there are different levels of a crime that warrant different punishments. We have laws and due process that helps us determine truth and punishment. We rely on a society of rational people to make those decisions, not a bunch of angry people who just want revenge.
20
Yes, I believe Ms. Tamblyn is the insightful soul who said something to the effect of "believe first, ask questions later". A delightful riff on the old ignorant mob motto of " shoot first, ask questions later".
Throwing the rule of law and it's civilizing efforts aside does nothing to move our whole society forward.
2
Consequences should match the behaviors -
It is one thing to be criminal, like the spate of high powered men falling Icarus like from the heights of power and fame, and another to just be stupid and boorish with feet of clay.
Both C.K. and Frankin have admitted and apologized - Others: Not so much.
Weinstein, Rose, and Lauer are clearly criminal, while the gray area between them and the simply socially inept, is filling fast.
We NEED to purge, but show Lincoln like compassion that will find a course to repair a desperate wrong by powerful men, and allow this to become that transformative moment for society. The vast majority of men (I hope) feel as bewildered and dirty by these revelations as I do. Beware the vindictive heart, because it can never heal.
And healing this wrong is what I desire. I support any woman who has been harassed coming forward to bring light into this dark corner. We cannot restore all victims, but we can see to it that the next generations are better served and empowered to protect themselves and each other with the support of all, and in doing so build a greater society of respect.
In My career, I have been blessed to be in a female dominated chain of command, and it beats the male dominated chain I now inhabit. My opinion is that very soon, woman everywhere will join together and figure out the best way to correct this mess. And WE (men) will all be respectful and grateful for their guidance.
4
Before any of this in any one of the multiplying circumstances you, you, knew this was wrong. Do you not have a will?
When cultural norms are destroyed wholesale, there will be some norms that you may regret destroying. Gentlemen don't molest women, but then again, gentlemen are long out of fashion.
2
I can't help but feel that the spark for this was President Trump's shameful behavior with women. When will he have to reckon with the repercussions of his prior actions?
1
I have to laugh.
Add "Me Too" to the movements Republicans have co-opted and destroyed Democrats with.
1) Occupy Wall Street
2) Black Lives Matter
3) Me Too
Perhaps it's time for a little leadership and organization in the Democratic party. They're like a herd of cats pouncing at little bits of string that Republicans dangle in front of them.
I left the Republican party because they are preoccupied with playing tricks on the public.
I hope you will all eventually see what I experienced from the inside.
4
Should I ever be unfortunate and find myself single again, I'm thinking prostitutes from here on out is the answer to avoid any problems. The current shift is making having ANY relationship with a woman outside of business distasteful to me.
Of course, I might consider an offer I couldn't refuse from a woman who put it in writing, knowing that I could use that decades later to ruin her life if I so choose.
2
Yet another example of why liberals usually have the best ideas but continue to lose elections.
4
Amber Tamblyn is mad, and she is not going to take it any more. She has right to be angry, but no right to shelve all the values, moral and legal. America was found on, has prospered, and continues to be more free, just, and fair nation than any other in the world; thanks to our constitution and founding fathers.
Please, let the accused men pay the price and leave them alone. Work on getting rid of sexual harassment, but don't throw away what is precious and necessary. Without our values you, Ms Tamblyn, would have no voice and no media to have it heard.
2
This is interesting, I suppose, but it has not a darn thing to do with a powerless middle class guy like me. Let the media reckoning go on for as long as you like. If stand up comedy dies out over this, so be it. If violent TV and movies like game of thrones go away, so be it. Bring it on. Tear it down.
1
Nothing can condone or sweep under the rug boorish behaviour towards women. Nothing. Women must be respected as highly as any other human. But exactly how high is that? Shouldn't we confront that question, too? Men are being punished, and that's what I have a problem with - punishment. That's not a healthy dynamic in a society, and will only make men more defensive. Is that a good civil rights strategy?
At what point will it be decided that men have been punished *enough*? There is already a background disrespect for men. Man jokes are guaranteed laugh lines. Tell such jokes about women and you're a misogynist (an accusation that has been overused and thereby drained of its true meaning of extreme hatred). Do you watch television? Do you watch commercials? Notice that in 98% of them it's the man who plays the fool. Think that isn't noticed? Men are still often regarded as the "breadwinner" but the stresses that come with that are shrugged off. Men are automatically assumed to be bad fathers; the good ones are the exception. While women are better nurterers than men, men are just as capable of love and compassion.
Does this all balance terrible treatment of women? No no and no. But it's worth considering why men are the brunt of the jokes and snickering and humiliation. (Man-bun, mansplain, man-date, man-cave, etc. Those are adult school-yard taunts, and meant to be.) Last year a lot of men voted in a certain way because of this. You want more of it?
4
It is interesting how concerned you are with men being the brunt of jokes. After all, the famous quote goes: Womens greatest fear is that men may kill them; mens greatest fear is that they will be laughed at.
I suggest you do some reading about the Patriarchy. Men suffer in the patriarchy, too, but at least get a lot more benefits than women. I also suggest you look at the data on harrassment and rape. The problem is exactly that men have not been punished -- largely, at all. Crimes like sexual assault -- and felonies like rape -- continue because perpetrators fear no punishment. Punishment is the deterrent..... It is amazing to me that someone commenting on this article does not understand that concept
10
Redemption? Ok.
But why did any of these men seek redemption until they were exposed?
Not one came forward voluntarily an saud - you know, I've done some bad things and I'm ready to apologize and make my penance, my redemption.
No they waited
They waited with baited breath and crossed fingers that somehow they wouldn't be found out - the women they had harassed wouldn't step up. That their particular day of reckoning - for their sins - and possible redemption - would never come up...
that's not worthy of redemption, not by a long shot. They've got it coming. It's long overdue, and asking for redemption after the fact, after women have put themselves and their careers and reputations on the line to come public and tell the truth about you - is not earned.
8
RESENT: TYPOS CORRECTED. dg
Should every man ("every person"?) be fired based on accusations? Would it be responsible justice? Must fairness be abandoned to make a point, to satisfy a lust for revenge? Of course not all hearings, procedures, trials are going to be totally fair in someone's eyes, but if we trash fairness over sexual-related allegations, can we then trash fairness elsewhere? Everywhere? The wealthy, powerful men and women who abuse authority and seriously harm others can hire armies of attorneys and p.r. experts; but many (probaby most) allegations flooding the public arena are not related to the Weinsteins and others of fame and fortune. Is every allegation of workplace sexual harassment equal? Is any proof necessary before the Disappearing Squad eliminates the accused? In many if not most situations should possible harassers be WARNED and thus made aware the conduct may be wrongful? Should the accused be prmitted fair investigations, hearings, appeals? For some of the famous and/or wealthy, making a comeback might be possible. Louis C. K. could stand upright once again. For many others, however, just being accused of sexual misconduct (or worse: found guilty) can ruin reputation, employment opportunities, finances, emotional health. No big deal? No need for hearings and trials? Off with their heads, as the famous Queen ordered? OK. But is that the way those calling for change through "disappearing" would wish to be treated if they are ever The Accused?
1
Dear Amber (and everyone else, I suppose), I'm not ready for the redemption either. I'm a guy, btw. My childhood rapist never "apologized" to me and my sister, even on the witness stand. He is dead now, thankfully. What offends me now, however, is that none of this is new. Those of us (men and women equally) who in the 1980s and 1990s were holding rallies and attempting to change laws in order to protect children from predators were blamed by the media, society and celebrities for "not getting over it." Well. What can I say in 2017? I find this all very amusing. See how far you get. The movement I would have died for 20+ years ago must not have worked. Maybe you all will have better luck.
7
Bravo! You put it perfectly.
3
Let us not hand the sword of judgment to members of a profession known for poor anger management, emotional instability, addiction and other psychological issues.
3
Ladies,
If you know a man who is even 1% upset about all of these men being outed...there's a reason ;)
There's a lot of men in this country who are just fine with this happening. My dad never harassed women, I never harass women, and if my mom heard I did she'd kill me long before anyone could out me.
So if you know a man who's scared of this happening, get ready to hear the story about him.
5
The author might want to round out her experience with a bit of J.S. Mill. some Alexis de Tocqueville and maybe touch of John Locke
I will note that she has the whole Salem trials, Mao's purges and Robespierre Reign of Terror's down pat.
"What if an innocent man is falsely accused? What if the repercussion doesn’t fit the crime? What ever happened to innocent until proved guilty?"
How can someone ask all of the right questions and get all of the answers so wrong?
8
The end result of the anti-all-men-because-they're-all-predators by many women will simply result in the majority of men dismissing all claims by women of abuse by men.
6
They already do. Next?
4
This is not about being anti-all-men nor is it about claiming that all men are predators. This is about accountability for those men who have sexually harassed or abused women and men.
Do not try to reframe this as all women now claiming that all men are anti-men or think all men are predators, to try to invalidate or delegitimize these cases of harassment.
People tried to do this with the Black LIves Matter Movement, reframing it as an anti-white movement. It isn't and wasn't. And I'm white. It was to highlight cases racial bias and violence by the police. Constitutionally, white lives have always mattered. Not so with African-Americans. They stood up and said, Black Lives Matter (too). Women want to be treated with respect (too).
1
I know I am in the minority but once again, I find Ms. Tamblyn's column more hurtful than helpful. I am trying to resist the urge to state my feminist bonafides, but I feel like that is always required when you go against the herd. I have been so demoralized by Trump winning the presidency despite the numerous accusations about him and the "Access Hollywood tape, that all of this "reckoning" seems empty to me. How can we, as women, feel any thing resembling power when so many in our nation decided that Trump's behavior toward women is irrelevant. However, even in my despair, I can not, and will not accept this mob mentality that we should tar and feather every person accused and never allow for any one to defend themselves. I understand the ferocity of it, but it scares me. It scares me in the same way Trump's presidency scares me; it feels unhinged, it seems indiscriminate, and I don't know how it is going to end. I worry about unintended consequences, namely that women who experience violent sexual assault or ongoing sexual harassment will be dismissed because it is viewed as the same as a single grope or misplaced hand. I worry that men will close ranks because they begin to see injustice in the indiscriminate, harsh punishments doled out for a range of infractions. It is my hope that we can address this in a way that doesn't declare men the enemies, but instead our allies in this fight for universal dignity.
26
Maybe the writer needs to hang out with better men. Good men -- the majority in America -- are not worried about false accusations or harsh consequences for abusers. Good men have wives, girlfriends, mothers, daughters, granddaughters, and most of all, morals. The changes and the purging of abusers is being applauded by good men.
6
still doesn't mean i have to like amber tamblyn.
Such a perfect piece. It answers all the questions and it’s spot on!
2
I was informed today that my doctor as well a son all male doctors in his practice will no longer be giving women gynecological exams. Not only has he always treated me and those of his patients ( those I know) with respect but he caught a pre-cancerous condition. He may have saved my life. I trust him.
But the fear of litigation and the possibility that an examination could be seen as too invasive or "sexual " has made these doctors decide to play it safe. So now I will no longer get exams from my doctor of 20 years but from a new doctor who may or may not be as competent.
Is this really how far we want to go?
6
Redemption requires remorse - real unqualified remorse.
None of these men came forward to offer remorse or request redemption before they were outed. I don't think that counts in the eligibility for it.
4
I don't believe redemption and for them to reestablish themselves in some form equivalent to who they were is possible. They were up there in that rarified air of power and celebrity, and when that bubble pops because something so egregious, it's over, for good. As it should be. They will be replaced quite easily. To even consider redemption for any of them is unthinkable. As women often say, the abuse for them is never over. Neither should the consequences for the abusers.
4
Eloquent, powerful, compelling.
Just one note for thought: Keven Spacey didn't harass women, it would seem.
The frame of discussion perhaps should not be completely gender based.
Yes, it's a patriarchy, yes it's toxic masculinity normalized--but bad people are bad people, whether redeemable or not.
2
As uncomfortable as it may have become to be a man lately, I consider what the current disequilibrium will do for the future my two teenage children will inherit. If it makes it less likely for my daughter to be exposed to such behavior and my son to do something that could cost him his career and reputation, then I'm pretty OK with men being uncomfortable.
When I worry about the probability of a good man being wrongly accused of something, I put myself in that position. I would do two things: First, speak truthfully about any incident in question, then fall back on my reputation and ask those women with (and for) whom I've worked for decades to vouch for that reputation.
I would much rather have my judgement & wisdom questioned than my veracity.
Give the ladies their due and consider the future.
3
As the Dixie Chicks so eloquently put it: I'm not ready to make nice. The theme of each revelation has been that people knew and they either did nothing or they were involved in the cover up. There must be consequences or we will continue to have predators in our mist.
4
I strongly recommend that all those who are portraying Ms. Tamblyn's op-ed as a hysterical, rage-filled cry for revenge, read it again, more carefully. It is nothing of the sort; she is making a well-reasoned (and true) argument about the depth, scope and damage of (this one particular and egregious aspect of) the oppression of women which PERVADES the world in horrific ways, and bringing out that it is very good that a torrent of rebellion has been unleashed against this.
She is also saying that all oppressive behavior is not EQUAL, but it IS all oppressive. And at this point the thing that needs to happen is that a line gets drawn in the sand--by women AND men--that this is INTOLERABLE. And then down the road there can be some further sorting out of things.
Again--reread the whole thing. Then think about her last 4 sentences. And I suggest that if you still think her position is part of the problem, you HAVE "chosen a side"--the wrong one!
7
Before we talk about Redemption, we should talk about Remorse and Restitution.
First, does the person express (in words and action) regret for their action? For example, does the person apologize, in private to the person and in public, for their actions? Louis CK may feel bad about his actions, but his statement wasn't an apology.
Then, have they made restitution for their actions? Ideally, it should be to the person they affected.
After remorse and restitution, then we can talk about redemption.
4
When are women going to be willing to talk about the unequal power relationships in families as well? How many women are expected to go along because they need the financial support for their children, they need the health benefits the man's job supplies? This would involve our speaking up while being in its grip, with the possibility of violence and/ or financial punishment ensuing. Are we brave enough for that?
Mothers should be paid for their skills and the work they do. It is absurd that the very people most crucial and responsible for creating human persons and sustaining a society are not accorded the value we place on human worth within it: financial reward and independence. Show motherhood the respect and recognition of professional skills and standards that any other walk of life deserves. If it is the father assuming the childcare and education responsibilities he should be financially rewarded by the woman.
You just cut 2 paychecks instead of one.
4
Tis a very sad state of affairs when scandals appear daily on this subject. The fact that many of these reports happened years ago and in many cases were known to multiple people but never pursued indicates some culpability to institutions and/or individuals that hid them. What we clearly have is a cultural problem that will not go away so quickly. Hopefully highlighting these situations will help but women and young boys also have to be sure to avoid situations that can bring these things to pass. Pepper spray and a loud whistle, also a no nonsense demeanor are great deterrents.
You can only speak of pepper spray and loud whistles, etc., as deterrents because you are completely ignorant of who is doing the harassing and raping and where they are doing it. Most perpetrators know their victims; they don't drag them off the street. Most of them are manipulative, like Matt Lauer with his door-locking button under his desk. Most of them will pretend to be friends with a woman until they get her alone, and then they pounce. Whistles and pepper spray won't stop such attacks. Educate yourself as to how perpetrators operate. You are dead wrong.
4
I'm a 70-year-old gay man who, in nearly 50 years of living an out-of-the-closet lifestyle has seen other gay men lose their jobs, their families and, in some cases, their lives simply for having been revealed to be gay. At lunch today with my former gym buddy (who is now in his 60s) we started asking an interesting question which I doubt anyone is asking newly-fallen men like Bill O'Reilly, Matt Lauer, and Harvey Weinstein. From the perspective of gay men who have survived the witch hunts and ostracism, we'd like to ask: How does it feel?
7
I don't know how you can take something as obviously wrong as sexual harassment and turn it into an over-the-top harangue that had me thinking "Just shut up," but you've managed.
15
Why does the author point out that her companions were "Emmy-winning?" I think that it says a lot about her world view. Maybe instead of referring to all "Men," she should look at the nature of the industry in which she works and the majority of those accused and draw some conclusions about that.
5
When my young son saw the title of this article, he asked me, " Doesn't this mean when I grow up I won't be worthy of redemption?" He has not sexually harassed any of his female ( or other) classmates. So far, he isn't sure what "sexual harassment" means.
I am raising him to listen to what women say and to respect them and not to subject them to abuse, including sexual harassment.
The title of this article does not specify that the author is only unopen to the redemption of men who have harassed women or caused trauma or hurt them in other ways.
Instead it implies that men are not worthy of redemption. It is beyond a provocative title. It smacks of judgment and not just for those who prey on women, who ignore their rights and who don't care if they cause pain.
I look at my son and wonder if he is judged and condemned and mistrusted simply for being born male.
8
Good. Then he'll know what women feel like EVERY DAY
5
Yes, Jackson, your son is going to be judged and condemned and mistrusted simply for being born male in America. See Great Lakes's comment below. Your son will be presumed guilty upon accusation. He will be routinely discriminated against in education and no one will listen to him or you.
Those are the goals of the feminist movement. That is what makes it a hate group.
Remember your feelings now every time you vote. And share your feelings with other parents and grandparents of sons and grandsons: that it is not fair or just to judge or mistreat others for being Born That Way. Love your son and teach your son to love others, but also to know also who wishes him ill so he can protect himself.
Peace.
3
Yes, but:
It's not just about defending men.
Lots of women--too many women, including women with star power and celebrity and well-remunerated careers--who said "I'm not a feminist" and said and did all kinds of things--including the movies some of them made, and made money off of--that celebrated sexist, patriarchal, anti-feminist imagery and beliefs.
Are these women, some of whom are now saying "me too", repentant for having played into the overall picture? Are they sorry that they ridiculed, or laughed at when somebody else did, feminists and feminist ideas? Did they give their boyfriends a pass because they wanted their girlfriends to see that they had a real "caveman" devoted to them?
OK. So none of these women are perpetrators of sexual crimes. Many of them are themselves victims. But some had real choices, even if it was just what they were willing to chuckle about or sneer at at parties. If we are calling everyone to account for what they did to perpetrate the hideously masculinist, literally woman-hating, culture we now inhabit, we had better be ready to call everybody to account. Not that the blame is equal. That is the false equivalency of the right. The point is not that we're all equally sexual predators, but that many of us, including many women, accepted that culture at times when we didn't have to. We thought maybe we, individually, would be fine if we just stayed under the radar. Now we know. There's no individual rescue; only mass change.
6
Recall what Pres. Trump's excuse was for the Access Hollywood tape (which he now claims, remarkably, might well be fake). He said it was "locker room talk." Everyone knows what he meant (although if he had been recorded saying the same thing in an actual locker room, would this have made it alright?). This issue tends to be looked at as a male-female interaction problem, but it's as much a male-male interaction problem.
Given that everyone knew what Trump meant by "locker room talk," that tells you everyone knows how guys talk to each other, even if it rarely goes as far as bragging about assault. Guy culture has to change, which doesn't mean it has to become feminine or less manly. There's nothing manly about sexual harassment. In truth, in historical comparative terms, our society is a paradise for women. But that fact excuses nothing.
As long as guys are what they are, this issue will be with us. But all guys can change the way they talk to one another about women. We have to stop assuming that moral progress is ineluctable. Every male child starts at square one, but, it's true, we can change the culture he's born into. But it's not going to happen simply because it's humanity's destiny or something. We CAN be a better society in the future, but don't assume we cannot be a worse one. (A couple of nights ago I watched "Once Upon a Time in America" again. Noodles's relationship with Deborah -- rape and all -- makes me think: How complex, how confounding, a human being is.)
3
Sure, we talk like that. But how many men are afraid a woman is going to assault them? Men have the power, physically, politically, and career-wise. Certainly there are exceptions, but for the most part, men intimidate women.
4
The point is that talk is talk, and both sexes do it. Trump may just be a tasteless blowhard. Men may have the more intimidating physical profile, but you show no consideration to how intimidating women are to men. Approaching a woman for most men is daunting, except maybe for the narcissists in the news. The rest of us know the power of no, and for a gentleman, physical presence is no advantage.
2
Disappearing them, even temporarily, does not look like a workable solution. There are too many of them, they would fill a continent, and most would not come back. Society would stop functioning.
1
The idea of redemption via crocodile tears of redemption doesn't appeal to me. But neither does the Code Napolean - guilty until proven innocent. Of course, if someone admits guilt, that is a different matter.
1
So many of the accounts of women's experience of sexual harassment and assault at work have included statements like, "that's when I decided this field is not for me," or "I had to leave my job and find a different line of work," or, in the worst cases, "after I complained, I stopped getting work and I heard that it was because I had acquired a reputation for being 'difficult'". So yes, some men are losing their jobs, and a smaller number may be losing their careers entirely, but how many women did EACH of these predators drive out of their jobs, the careers that they had put time and energy and education and love into, and that they were driven out of long before they had acquired the level of financial security the Weinsteins and Lauers are leaving with. In other words, how much human capital was destroyed by their depradations?
27
One other thing that needs mentioning. Unfortunately, for so many of these starlets, actresses, etc the rampant, unchecked male sexuality is what created the market for their acting and modeling "talents"; if men were respectful, kept their sexuality in check, didn't leer and ogle, and were respectful of women, they would turn away when these women expose themselves in revealing ways that male actors never have to, and submit to graphic scenes that show much more skin than men ever have to.
It's ironic that the medium and people that gave them their forum in the first place ended up being that which harmed them.
This excuses no perpetrator, but the irony is evident.
3
I agree with your point, except that it is not ironic. One necessarily occurs with the other.
1
I am not particularly interested in the redemption of these super-famous, super-powerful men many of whom are sexual predators and worse.
I worry about the little guy who may be falsely accused and watch his life be ruined because of a vendetta from a woman who is angry at him or just angry at men in general. I don't think there are many women who would do this, but there are some.
In this climate, accusation seems almost synonymous with guilt. I hope we will not glibly destroy the lives of men (or women) in correcting a terrible wrong.
6
So far only Billy Bush and OJ haven't been welcomed back to the fold.
Pretty sure Harvey and Kevin Spacey are goners because sound like they were completely hated for other aspects of their personalities besides the assaulting and raping.
I predict Louis CK will have a comeback eventually, when memories fade.
Roman Polanski up for an Oscar.
Mel Gibson in Daddy's Home 2.
Bill Clinton and his speaking fees/elder statesman role.
Roy Moore probably winning a Senate seat.
And Trump is President of the United States.
Honestly, I always thought Billy Bush was annoying but he really got a raw deal.
9
Ms. Tamblyn, I take issue with your setting up two competing camps...men over here and women over there. Did you forget that Mr. Spacey's victims were exclusively male? Which camp do those men fall into? Are they a special kind of victim?
We're all human beings, and we all need to learn to respect each other. Our genders are part of who we are, but not exclusively and should not be the only thing to define us as people.
13
Long ago the poet Leigh Hunt penned a popular poem, perhaps evidence of an unsolicited physical advance.
Jenny kiss'd me when we met,
Jumping from the chair she sat in;
Time, you thief, who love to get
Sweets into your list, put that in!
Say I'm weary, say I'm sad,
Say that health and wealth have missed me,
Say I'm growing old, but add
Jenny kiss'd me.
5
Well done, Ms. Tamblyn. Just one thought: Men are not either "with our bodies or against our bodies". They're either with US, as whole, valued and inviolable human beings, or they're against us. Isn't it the key point that our bodies are inseparable from our intellects, our emotions, our abilities - our selves?
3
There is a rush here. It's the kind of apology, which is no apology at all, that says "okay i'm sorry, can you just forgive me already so we can go back to normal?" It is our time, as men, to wallow in this uncertainty. To take it all in. To realize the breadth of impact and the systemic quality of this thing that we do to women. It IS unsettling to us. We are looking back at those questionable times in our lives when we ask ourselves did WE harass that girl in high school? Or that female colleague at work? This is what we should be doing. Acknowledging our part in this culture that perpetuates victimizing. In this cycle of abuse it is our time to listen, take responsibility, reflect, and try to fix this society we fashioned in our own image.
13
How about this? Choose consent rather than coercion. If you can't (or won't), then be prepared to suffer the consequences.
9
Redemption.
It was very difficult for me to believe at first.
But nonetheless I must respect the deep faith -- and the forgiveness toward the shooter and his family -- shown by the families of the 26 souls taken in the mass church shooting in Sutherland, TX.
Was this redemption? Or merely forgiveness?
Again, not my place to judge others' actions.
I do not think there is a man alive who knows how to respond appropriately to the inevitable reckoning that is taking place right now. The only thing I can offer is that it was just a matter of time. I do think that it is worth noting that these horrific acts of misogyny and sexism have been publicized because they have been perpetrated by men who are rich and powerful, fear and admired. I possess none of those traits. I am the guy who says sorry when the transgression was clearly committed by the more powerful person in the interaction. I am not without culpability when it comes to inappropriate behavior toward women; my transgressions consist of a raised voice and verbal abuse for which I attempted to make amends and endeavor never to repeat. It is my goal, but also a conscious activity for me to treat all people with kindness and respect, and while I hate to admit it, it is when I am "not on-guard" that my behavior sometimes runs afoul of societal norms, though nothing akin to what I have been reading about and usually in a way that is forgiven by those around me at the time. I do not believe it is my place to counsel women, especially those victimized by sexual misconduct and assault, on how they should respond to sexism and misogyny today and going forward. I have been wrong and I endeavor to make it right. I pray for redemption and try not to think about whether or not I deserve it.
9
Dear Amber Tamblyn,
Men don't need redemption. They aren't asking for your forgiveness. While your liberal male friend may seek such in your company (or at least give you the impression that he is), the rest of us who have done nothing wrong are seeking neither redemption nor forgiveness nor atonement.
The fact of the matter, Amber, is that most men don't need redeeming and most women don't need saving. And while I understand your need to emasculate men in order to feel better about yourself or your own situation, I'm also saddened about how indiscriminately people like you lump the actions of a few predators with the behavior and attitudes of men in general.
Change, Amber, begins from within. If you're serious about wanting to change something in the culture then look inward first and consider. Once you're able to judge men as individuals and not as a group, you'll be taking the first step in living up to your own standards.
32
Absolutely the best comment out of the whole bunch. Well said.
1
Yes.....the best comment yet. My “redemption” isn’t hers to give. Like the vast majority of men who have never engaged in and never will in this behavior I don’t need her “forgiveness”. This pent up squalid rage she is expressing here is utterly pathetic.
1
Women's new bold empowerment is altogether a good thing and it's high time coming. And yet ... a good friend and as morally upright a man as one will find said his greatest fear as a teacher was that he might be accused of sexual assault by a female student in retribution for a bad grade, or whatever mysterious psychological motivations teenagers may sometimes experience. 40 years ago I made an agreement with the male teacher across the hall that the doors to our classrooms would always remain open and we would give each other a signal if visited by a female student outside of class hours. And then there was the bold college age girl who told my professor that she would do anything - (hint) ANYTHING - to get an A. Should he have reported her for sexual harassment?
8
As a senior manager who has promoted women in my staff, one to a director and the other to vice president, I have always had great respect for women. The sexual abuse stories hit home for me when my girlfriend, now wife, told me of being harassed by one of her college professors. My wife graduated magna cum laude but she had to change the class to pass/fail for fear of retaliation.
I hear you but please do not lump me in with these other “meat heads”.
I have already taken steps to protect myself, yes protect me, in the work place to ensure I have witnesses whenever I address a female colleague. My male peers have done similar things.
I was a good guy before, now I am a scared guy who will think twice whenever I address a person of the opposite sex. This op-ed and the comments on this board confirm that my fears are valid.
11
I grew up rehearsing in my mind what I’d do if trouble broke out in a working class restaurant or when I was walking down an alley or a rough looking street. Since the 80s I’ve also rehearsed in my mind how to get to or call loudly for witnesses asap in situations relevant to this discussion.
Fortunately, to date the one time I was falsely accused of something decades ago there were as it turned out several witnesses of both genders with a clear view who came forward. Even still, a false hue and cry is terrifying and infuriating. No argument about the fact that anything even close to Harvey Weinstein is terrifying and beyond infuriating.
The glaring omission from this piece, specifically and thematically, is that not all women need salvation and not all men need redemption-- obscene power politics is getting way too much press. Just as I recognize the flaws of American foreign policy, the continued tragedy of racism, and the inequality arising from sexism, it doesn't mean that I have to feel guilty or argue that I'm not an imperialist, racist, sexist white man. I don't feel guilty about Charlie Rose, nor do I feel sorry for women.
There is a paradox that men often have with their female partners. I want to protect her, but is my protective impulse diminishing her power?
5
The rage in this article is palpable. Bad actors should of course be punished, and clearly lots of men need to relearn how to behave.
But....these women want to have it every single way. They want to accuse you if you step out of line, they want you not to obey the Pence rule, they want to deny the reality (not defending it, but it IS a reality) that if you want to go to hotel rooms alone, are getting paid to appear naked or almost naked in films, are using your appeal to sell sex in movies and tv, then people are going to perceive you a certain way- they want it every single which way.
I'm sorry, but that's not the real world we live in. What they're going to see soon is men who just decide it's not worth it- who will just decide not to hire women, and to stay away. And then they'll be suing every potential employer.
On the flip side, I do think that the way to combat most of this is to put more women in leadership positions, and then you'll see so much of this harassment fade.
8
As reprehensibly caddish as the more egregious workplace sexual harassment coming to light is, it's worth remembering moving cultural norms is a notoriously slow process. And as much as the Sisterhood wishes it to be so, male sexuality will not ever be feminized (let the pillorying begin), to their satisfaction.
The Sisterhood will achieve more, for more women, if it identifies achievable goals and exercises patience in going after them. Shrill divisiveness is indulgent and will quickly exhaust public sentiment in their favor.
8
Thanks for the mansplanation of how patient and non-threatening feminists should be, after all, the most important thing is that you should not be discomfited by all this.
9
Lolz, did you just refer to women as "shrill"? And I was with you for a moment, there.
5
Of course it will take time for the culteral norms to shift. Part of that process will be the airing of many opinions. Shrill divisiveness, and pillorying will be part of that as well as dismissive calls for the ladies to just calm down already and come up with a plan.
I can't speak for the whole Sisterhood, as you do, but I can say that that personally I have no problem with male sexuality. I have a problem with the abuse of power.
1
Well, I’m with the poor schmo outnumbered by two female colleagues apparently completely out of control.
The freedom to tell their stories isn’t at issue and it’s not being attacked – quite the contrary, for the present those women are being lionized. Clearly, those stories are believed and men who prey on and assault women are getting their comeuppance. But Ms. Tamblyn’s arguments are so extreme in the interests of a “reckoning” that she dismisses any thought of moderation to distinguish between what Harvey Weinstein did and what Garrison Keillor did. Cut off ALL their heads!
Once having been “disappeared”, it’s not so easy to “come back with a lot of reflection”. Garrison Keillor is 75.
The damage a failure of moderation in this “reckoning” will have could be dreadful. Consider: the marked increase of women in executive suites and at the height of their professions, technical, managerial, artistic, legal – in all walks of life -- could be reversed by men who still hold the power, in the fear that the slightest comment unleashed by one too many drinks will destroy them. If the “reckoning” is perceived to be a witch-hunt with no thought to gradations of outrage, appropriate consequences, rules of evidence and laws intended to protect the innocent, then the counter-reckoning could be even more unreasoned. And it could stop forward movement dead.
You don’t need to believe in redemption to value true justice and the interests of the greater good.
10
The oppressed, instead of striving for liberation, tend themselves to become oppressors.
-Paulo Freire
12
awww...are you worried men might start getting treated like they have treated women?
3
I will pick a side, Ms. Tamblyn, and it won't be yours. If you think this is about a time of reckoning, and you make no distinction between an awkward comment and rape, I cannot pick your side. If you demand "atonement" from an entire gender, I cannot pick your side. Your self-righteousness an makes me ill. I do not choose you. I choose truth and reason, qualities on which neither gender has a monopoly.
35
I'm sure she's devastated that you're not taking her side. Also, do you see this as a war or a competition? Why are there even sides? I'm on the side of everyone treating everyone else with respect.
10
Lauren, that is precisely the criticism. The authors position isn't about treating everyone with respect. She even says that if a few innocents get swept up in the process that's ok. It has to be about everyone treating everyone with respect and by that we mean everyone.
4
You say you're on the side of "treating everyone else with respect", but you started your comments with a sarcastic swipe against the person above, and asked if he saw this as "a war or a competition".
I agree with you that there should be no "sides". It was the author who told us to choose "sides".
3
Mr. Pettimore:
What does the level of a person's education have to do with the validity of their argument? A person with a High School diploma can recognize harassment as well as a PhD candidate. I have no idea what degrees Ms. Tamblyn may have but what she does have is a great deal of common sense.
27
I don't object to any consequences men are currently facing for sexual misdeeds or abuses of power. I do, however, seriously object to the notion of an entire gender needing and being denied redemption.
To the women who are understandably unconcerned with the fate of men--innocent or guilty--beware that you don't indiscriminately and uncaringly wield your newfound social power in the same manner of the men who have long held it. Past injustice does not justify current or future counter-injustice; an eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind. Women are more than entitled to this moment but that doesn't absolve them of the responsibility to do better than that which they decry.
6
It is entirely unlikely that American politics will by so radically altered that men will experience the same sense of physical oppression as is now being identified as the plight of women. Men, as a class, will remain physically larger and stronger (and more capable, by nature, of imposing their will by violence) than women. While we live in an unnatural environment of culture and laws, nature does count for something in our perception of reality. A gender war based upon deep resentment is not really were women, as a class want to go.
The argument that flawed male allies in the political struggle must be sacrificed so that the brutes at Fox will be unable to dismiss the Tamblyns as hypocrites and that suddenly the Trumps and the Moores will see the error of their ways is unduly optimistic.
3
This entire debate is just a more sophisticated manifestation and continuation of the age-old "boys vs. girls" rivalry (which is itself a predictable extension of human rivalry in general)—it's been here since grade school and it never quite goes away. One side oversteps its bounds and does something to anger the other, the other side fires back (in this case with firings and allegations that operate with what could be seen as a mob mentality, even if under the name of justice), and the other side (despite whether or not the retaliation was just or legally sensible) feels like it's lost and been shamed in some way and simply can't accept the judgement at face value. I think the latter reaction is especially applicable to men (who seem more competitive by nature), who are quite conscious of being slighted or forced to accept a judgement (even if it doesn't apply to them directly, but reflects on their gender or "team" in a broader sense) without a chance for rebuttal—it makes them feel like they're powerless and that they've been defeated, which leaves them with a chip on their shoulder and feeling like they need to respond. The question is whether this back and forth can oscillate toward and equilibrium state, leaving both sides feel like they have no remaining, uncontested slights against them.
2
In the present context of expressing deep resentment against males as a class I get a little nervous when I am assured by women that it is not a sensitive decent fellow like myself that is the source of such punitive anger; rather it is all those other guys. It feels a little like being told that Jews are cunning lying manipulators "of course present company excluded--You are an exception, a good Jew"
2
In Christ's story, redemption came only after crucifixion and sacrifice. Admitting the transgression, sacrificing one's accrued public success and image, and actively working to change one's attitude and interaction with those abused would be part of the process leading up to honest redemption or rehabilitation. Until there is willingness on these abusers' part to recognize the abuse, admit the transgression and disrespect to the victims, and offer up some bit of honest sacrifice...how can we expect a change? As a man, I can honestly say it will take at least that much to change this aspect of macho culture in our society today.
9
I'm not going to hash my life with women in these comments, but in the past I've been harassed, led on, coerced, and abused. I've suffered over relationships stemming from work and I've endured my fair share of abuse in certain situations. I've also suffered from some false accusations and I know that not all people are honest. I know not all interactions between men and women are at the discretion of the man. Nor are all interactions initiated by the man.
Life between the sexes is very complicated.
This current situation is not going to end well, though. If women perceive that men are intrinsically bad and men perceive that any workplace involvement with women could potentially end their working lives, both sides are going to want to segregate themselves. When this happens, will society be better off? Will society be better off if we stop associating with those who are not our gender or skin color or religion or ethnic heritage because of the very chance such an association could lead to a negative outcome?
I think we are trending towards a society of less interpersonal activity and more who will experience very long periods of loneliness. Again, this is not going to end well.
12
It's interesting that you don't think men are strong enough to just step up to the plate and be decent people, if they aren't already (and those men do exist). I predict YOU will experience very long periods of loneliness, as will other people like you. The rest of us will be fine.
7
Lauren:
Read Arthur's comment again. He is saying that he did just what you ask -- he stepped up to the plate and behaved decently. But that did not protect him from being harassed, led on, coerced, and abused.
3
Lauren: I am happily married and we just celebrated our ten year anniversary. I hope your prediction is wrong.
I stand by my assertion however: If men and women and all the other distinctions in life turn each other into potential enemies, people will withdraw from those presences. Especially if those interactions could potentially lead to catastrophic endings like the loss of one's ability to work. When the rhetoric becomes so vitriolic and one sided, you can be certain the other side will withdraw. Hence a more lonely existence.
2
Right on! Keep up the pressure, women. Stories that have plagued you for lifetimes, that's the truth. Men don't want to face this. It's a spectrum of behavior we've enjoyed without much challenge for lifetimes, certainly not by challenging ourselves much. Men need to see that the modern version of male sexuality has gone too far. We don't want to find other ways to interact with women, but if women stand firm in insisting on change, we won't have much choice.
I hope women will now feel emboldened to speak up immediately and call men out whenever they experience such behavior, directly or indirectly as need be. If men know they'll get in trouble right away, that will be a deterrent. As such behavior gets extinguished, future generations of men may never even learn it. We can hope.
15
Following your recommendation I sincerely hope that all women possess the wisdom of Solomon.
This notion that redemption is only possible once one actually understands what he did wrong does not strike me as the least bit extreme. This discussion reminds me of a boyfriend from many years ago who thought the problem in our relationship was that I did not trust him. I thought that the problem was that he was not trustworthy. Bottom line, I don't trust most men. If (as a man) you don't like that, maybe you should work to change the culture that allows men to get away with so much, while many of the women did loose their careers. Many of these comments demonstrate that a lot of men (and some women) still don't "get" it. Don't really get what sexual harassment is or what it does to those who get harassed.
9
Ms. Tamblyn says "Choose us." I'll choose white women when white women demonstrate that they are a dependable ally. Too many white women voted for Donald Trump. Convince those women to choose you, and then I will. Until then, I stand with those who have steadfastly rejected bigotry with their words and actions. I stand with those who demand justice, not vengeance. I stand with those who seek reconciliation, not recrimination.
12
This is a GREAT point !!
These women enabled a predator and need to be held accountable for their actions.
Huma, have you ever wondered WHY those women voted for him rather than her?
Hate to break it to you but neither candidate was perfect far from it yet those women chose him. WHY?
@Huma Nboi -- How can you stand against bigotry, when you've just said you reject an entire race and sex, i.e. "white women," because you say they aren't a "dependable ally."
You've made a subjective judgment about others' worth and rejected them based on it. That, right there, is bigotry.
How long will it take before people see that bias and bigotry aren't reserved to one side of the political or ideological spectrum?
3
"We’re in the midst of a reckoning. The only way to enforce seismic, cultural change in the way men relate to women is to draw a line deep in the sand and say: This is what we will no longer tolerate".
And this statement pretty much represents what people believe has been going on recently. That this represent a new and major change in how society will from now on no longer tolerate the way in which men were once able to have their way with women over which they held a position of power at the office.
However this belief is based on the fact that all of those men who have been penalized because they sexually assaulted women all belong to an exclusive club that is representative of no more than about .0001% of men. These are the type of men who are so famous that every American has heard of them in addition to the fact that their positions, which they were made to lose, required of them to have the approval of society at large. And this was because they were either performers or politicians.
This leaves the other 99.9% of men who nobody heard of, and so the woman who were victimized by these men will not be able to have the whole country hear their stories on the evening news, in addition to the fact that they and their bosses will be under no pressure to get rid of them.
So at the end of the day all men who are not so famous as to make a story about how they sexually assaulted a woman newsworthy will continue to act just as they always have.
4
Should every man "every person"?) be fired based on accusations?
Would it be responsible justice?
Must fairness now be abandoned to make a point, to satisfy a lust for revenge?
Of course not all hearings, procedures, trials are going to be totally fair in someone's eyes, but if we trash fairness over sexual-related allegations,
can we then trash fairness elsewhere? Everywhere?
The wealthy and powerful men and women who abuse authority and seriously harm others can hire armies of attorneys and public relations experts;
but many (probaby most) allegations flooding the public arena are to related to the Weinsteins and others of fame and fortune.
Is every allegation of workplace sexual harassment equal? Is any proof necessary before the Disappearing Squad eliminates the accused?
In many if not most situations should possible harasser be WARNED and thus made aware the conduct may be wrongful? Should the accused be prmitted fair investigations, hearings, appeals?
For some of the famous and/or wealthy, making a comebak might be posible.
Louis C. K. could stand upright once again. For many others, however, just being accused of sexual misconduct (or worse: found guilty) can ruin reputation, employment opportunities, finances, emotional health.
No big deal? No need for hearings and trials? Off with their heads, as the famous Queen ordered?
OK. But is that the way those calling for change through "disappearing" would wish to be treated if they are ever The Accused?
2
Women are ALWAYS the accused. You don’t know what you are talking about.
3
Here's what I learned as a child in church: to get redemption, you have to do penance.
It's almost impossible to get a man convicted, even of the most violent and outrageous sexual assaults--so, jail isn't going to happen.
But unemployment. What better time for reflection and penance?
In the meantime--HIRE WOMEN. Make them bosses.
15
Untrue. Rape has fallen dramatically over the past three decades.
And men are convicted of rape all the time.
2
Louis CK and Harvey Weinstein are guilty of different things and should face different consequences. Louis CK should lose his professional standing, at least for a period of time (maybe for even longer than a year), and Harvey Weinstein should go to jail for a very long time.
I agree with what you've written here in this piece but the first two paragraphs illustrate the hyperbole present on both sides of this issue, and which only serves to create division. The men accused of sexual misconduct grazing our newspapers every day are not being accused of subtle crimes. Most of these accusations are blatantly offensive if not illegal. For all the men worrying about accidentally brushing up next to someone in an elevator or at a christmas party, the accusations in question are not subtle. Also for women who are making blanket statements about all men being equally guilty of sexual assault or even all instances of sexual harassment being equal, be aware that this feeds into the "witch hunt" paranoia and the idea that all of this is somehow part of some "war on men".
We are coming to a place where men who've used their power to sexually harass and assault women are finally being called to task. We've got a long road ahead of us and we need to get there together. Yes, there will be redemption for some later down the road, but first we need to keep pulling back the curtain and see who's running around in an open bathrobe.
4
OK, let's just relax, please.
It's getting too insane.
Of course, they committed all these horrible things, of course.
But they didn't rape anybody or they would be in jail, right?
They misbehaved. But how could you fire Lauer without any investigation after a single complaint?
How come everybody was silent for so long? Nobody cared about the next woman who comes into the office after you, no? No sisterhood?
If Bill Maher, John Oliver or Larry David are going to get canceled (what if someone accuses them?), I will have to simply kill myself.
All this simply breaks my heart.
Why cancel Lewis CK movie? Why?? I would like to see it very much. I think you should give people a chance, you have to.
Why not concentrate our efforts to fight rape and pedofiles? There are so many of them, why don't we help these poor children, why don't we save them??
Why don't we separate an art someone created and this person's actions?
Why does it have to be a witch hunt?
We need a different approach to this horrific problem. You cannot fire people for some allegations.
And please stop giving these horrible details, I cannot take it anymore!
I saw two 8 year old children a few days ago. They were asking Siri-What is a harassment?
I am a woman, and I am not justifying these men, but let's put it in perspective.
Let's take more holistic approach. First, no more details-it's not honorable.
And let's give these men a chance for redemption and for better behavior.
4
You are wrong to assume that if a man rapes, he will go to jail. Most women don’t report rapes, and if they do, their reports are ignored or the police attack the woman. Fewer than 3% of all reported rapists ever go to jail, let alone prison. The system fails rape victims.
5
No more details? It's not honorable? What's not honorable is using your social power to abuse other people.
4
Donald Trump can just put down his smart phone and stop using Twitter, because his dirty work of divide-and-conquer is being done for him by the black-and-white world view proposed in this essay, where it's all women against all men; men can only be perpetrators and women only victims; and the righteousness of victim-hood grants moral authority which supersedes normal standards of due process and punishment fitting the crime. Draw the line in the sand! Pick a side! You're either with us or against us!
Sexual harassment and subordination of women are serious issues and I'm glad to see a reckoning take place. But it breaks my heart when a social movement that could be about justice and equality is hijacked by this rhetoric that maintains and reinforces the division between the sexes, and ultimately reflects rather than corrects the polarization of our culture today.
6
Let's face it. There is a stew in which Americans live and find themselves in: sexually repressive culture, rise of politically and religiously conservatives, prohibition and criminalization of the sex trade, and the harsh treatment of the laws and courts of infidelity. Until Americans become more mature and open in dealing with the sexually repressive culture and the propensity to politically regulate and dictate social and private behaviors, there will be more men like Weinstein, Rose and Lauer.
1
Men are sexually repressed? Give me a break. They are sexually obsessed.
1
I get the impression that the author has been a victim of sexual harassment and worse from her use of the word “we” throughout the article. That would justify the anger in her comments. But any real solution to this problem is going to need the the kind of rational examination of the deeper issues. Americans have been neurotic about sex for a long time. The sexual revolution of the 60’s and 70’s was an attempt to shake off the unrealistic sexual attitudes of the 50’s. The “freedom” it offered was an illusion but American businesses co-opted the superficial aspects of that freedom and since the 80’s, sex has become more of a commodity then ever. Both men and women are to blame for creating a culture that celebrates sexual pleasure for its own sake. It is hypocritical to blame Al Franken for his vaudevillian shenanigans on the USO tour without acknowledging that the reason his victim was on the tour in the first place was because she was sexually attractive and that our fighting men deserved a little “eye candy”. What, really, is the difference between Franken miming grabbing her breasts as a joke and the woman’s using her sexuality to arouse the troops? I sincerely doubt that the act they performed for the troops contained no sexual innuendo. Sexual misbehavior is part and parcel of the de-humanization brought about by technology, unfettered capitalism, and the acceptance of sexual pleasure absent love. Both sexes need to clean up their act
12
What's the difference between choosing how to use your own body and having others choose for you?
Oh, I don't know - consent? Power? Humiliation?
But because of how she dresses and chose to use her own body, she must have been asking for it, right?
6
What if the male behavior being denounced is as natural as Gay behavior? No one wants to address the fact that male, non-human, mammals are often violent and do not take no when it comes to sex.
So? Are you saying that if it's natural, that makes it faultless and OK? There are a lot of natural substances that are poisons also.
8
That's why every human culture has rules on the behavior between the sexes, what is allowed and what is protected. Females are generally protected against predatory violent males, just like murderous or thieving people are imprisoned. If a guy crosses the line, he will face the consequences, just like in the animal world.
1
What? Are you actually saying assault is like being gay?
At the very beginning of the salvation of women?
AGREED!!! In fact, it may not have even started.
Think about it. Over the next 6 months, every male news anchor, comedian and film producer in the country may get outed and fired by their very public corporations but will anything really have changed for the average entry level minimum wage service sector female worker grunt who can’t simply pull out her cellphone and call Gloria Allred?
As for us guys, perhaps it’s time to ditch any and all efforts, to touch, comment on appearance, flirt or otherwise convey any form of sexual / courtship agency IN THE WORKPLACE…welcome or not. Yeah…it may be hard, considering that many single men (and women) spend most of their waking hours at work and form deep connections through the commonalities or their vocations with those with whom they work and collaborate. No…you won’t be finding the love of your life (or that summer fling) at work anymore so get over it and start focusing on “getting a life” outside of the office.
8
The Mike Pence Rule is beginning to look better all the time!
It is well that the kind of men who subscribe to the Times, college educated, Democratic voters, Democratic donors, know feminism is not about equality or justice. It is about Female Supremacy today, Female Supremacy tomorrow, Female Supremacy forever.
Thank you Amber Tamblyn.
4
You are articulating a fear, not fact. Women do not seek supremacy over men. Men see the situation that way because they believe life is a zero sum game, where someone has to win and the other has to lose. Better get over that delusion.
8
If "Female Supremacy forever" is what you got from this article, you must feel very threatened indeed about your own thoughts and behavior.
4
Redemption only comes after a long period of remorse and atonement. And the perp is not allow to pout like a victim of injustice if it doesn't happen fast enough. This goes for any offense, not just those involving sex.
5
Her opinion is as good as any other. Makes me think about the national conversation that is going on. Painful, yep. But very necessary and about time.
Amber often says what others won't. Thank you Amber.
6
I'm a retired pastor. No redemption without repentance. No redemption without atonement. The accused must make amends and take what punishment results.
And it's up to the victims to decide if atonement and repentance are enough before forgiveness is granted.
I know this is a tough line to take. But the system's enabling and protection of the offenders means stark measures are needed.
16
Thank you! your voice on this is appreciated. Please consider publishing on Medium or similar. More men need to hear this from other men, especially spiritual and other leaders.
3
This isn't just against women. Males are preyed upon quite often too--hence Kevin Spacey, Brian Singer, etc.
5
The accusations against Kevin Spacey are founded in a sick version of reverse me-too that is actually hidden homophobia. From what I've read, all of the stories about Spacey's actions don't include a single woman, except the news anchor who brought up contact between two consenting adults including her son.
1
Yet the predator is almost always male in all these cases. The way we teach men is something to be looked at.
Nonsense. Men aren't preyed upon nearly as much as women, because men have most of the power. But I hear these defensive remarks all the time: "Well my cousin Eddie got groped too!"
Like that's equivalent to what all these women have been though.
People should be unwilling to talk about redemption for lewd behavior, really? Rape, coerced sex under career or physical threat, unwanted touching of private parts? No discussion of redemption is needed under those circumstances. Is that the case with the obscenely lewd behavior of Lewis C.K.? Is that also the case in response to the apparently far lesser offenses of Al Franken? Do we reject the apologies and pledges of people who are truly contrite and eventually reformable? Do we all go absolutist on this, much like the right-wingers who don’t want any criminal justice reform? (“Crime is bad. We need to be ruthless, any collateral damage is just tough.”) The horrendous history here definitely needs to be exposed and conditions radically improved. As with other wrongs, blanket sentencing isn’t a fair and just solution. Lumping predatory pathology and clumsy male behavior together risks nothing but backlash and failure. Human relations are far too complex. Simplistic, absolutist thinking will not address it.
22
As a man, I also agree with this piece. And not just because I have a daughter (more on that shortly).
All of these men have public lives, but they also have private lives. Every time allegations come out against another one of these vile perpetrators, I wince inside, not for them, but for their wives, their mothers, their sisters and their daughters. Louis C.K. has two teenage daughters. Maybe they had some idea already that he wasn't a 'normal' Dad, but his disgusting actions that are now public, surely have taken a terrible toll on that father-daughter relationship (assuming there was much of one to begin with). I couldn't imagine having to face my daughter, or any woman in my life for that matter, if something like this came out, and so publicly.
The point I guess I'm trying to get at is that these men DO absolutely need to be punished (some criminally), and just simply shut-up and go away from public life. Because as bad as that may seem to some, the real work they need to do has to start in private, with the women who love and trust(ed) them; and let's not forget the women they preyed upon. If they are going to have any atonement or redemption, THAT is where it needs to start.
22
All I can say is that if I ever advance in my career to where I need to hire an assistant or intern, I will undoubtedly choose another male for the position. No need to put my financial future in a position of risk where a misconstrued statement, joke, or glance could potentially lead to my professional demise without due process.
25
Dear Jay,
Very simple: 'Don't fish off the company pier.' And if you do, don't be surprised if there are consequences.
You're welcome.
11
None of these men have faced consequences because of a misconstrued statement, look, or glance. Why do men go to this whenever we try to ask for basic respect? No one's saying you can't be a person. We're only asking to be respected as people, too.
11
It's just awful to feel afraid in your workplace, isn't it, Jay? Millions of women know how you feel.
1
I didn't see Anthony Rapp's name in the foregoing discussion, or in the comments below. I guess in the process of feminine salvation, our society is likely to throw many male babies (in this case, male victims) out with the proverbial bathwater.
Please don't infer from that statement that I believe the men now accused of these heinous acts to not deserve to be punished for their transgressions. They do. But if the focus of this discussion on is on sexual predation, then it would be entirely unfair, and would be akin to metal health malpractice, to ignore the fact that there are men who are suffering from sexual abuse and harassment in our society. I am not arguing that the level of abuse is equivalent. I have provided a peer refereed journal article that provides at least estimate of the percentage of men who suffer from abuse by a femal partner. But male abuse is a crime that is often under reported for a variety of reasons (unless it involves salacious reporting of teens and their teachers).
A search on Google Scholar provides a few links but it is disturbing how little research is dedicated to the topic, especially when you read the few published reports that are posted on line. Research in this field, regardless of the victim's sex, is woefully underfunded.
Don't forget the rest of the victims just because of the sex of the most notorious perpetrators.
L. Stemple and I. H. Meyer, 2014, The Sexual Victimization of Men in America: New Data Challenge Old Assumptions
2
As a commenter below asked, when do we get the details on Trump. I suppose people are working on it.
8
The details of President Trump's transgressions will surely be stapled and collated to the copies of his missing IRS returns. They should arrive any day now.
I'm sure Satan isn't putting skates on his Holiday Shopping List.
2
I do believe in redemption, though I think it comes after more than just an apology -- a change in behavior and a genuine making of amends is called for. And I don't think those who start this process should be treated in exactly the same way as those who double down and insist that they've done nothing wrong. I also believe in due process, and am aware that there are such things as false accusations even from women, and I also believe in making the punishment fit the crime. I've considered myself a feminist since my teens in the 1970s, and as a woman in this society I've certainly endured my share of this kind of treatment. I'm glad to see us taking sexual harassment and sexual assault more seriously, but I worry that our response right now is more one of gleefully tearing powerful people down regardless of the severity -- or even the truth -- of their crimes, rather than a response that will actually change the culture for the better. I think honest discussions of the consequences of all of our actions are part of the process that will hopefully land us in a better place.
5
Most importantly this is about giving women a voice and a vote in how they should be treated and what happens to those who wrong them.
And, we should also remember this is also about the men who give women the respect, compassion, and honor all people deserve.
With abusers and harassers in prominent positions of power, good women and men get sidelined. The shaming of women extends to the shaming of men who care for them, the men who work side by side with them who believe them and also do not have enough power to help, or do not yet have the women’s permission to help.
Finally women and their allies can be taken seriously. We need to get these good women and men into power fast, and cut this festering wound out carefully, cauterizing as we go along.
7
What do the victims want and see as retribution and redemption? This should be part of the process too.
5
No, I don't believe in redemption. These men can go off and live with the millions they have made and I hope we never hear from them again. Maybe prison, if current law allows it. All of them. Forget regret, forget therapy, forget apologies. It's time for change, serious and permanent.
81
Yes, the HWs have their millions but this "war" will trickle down to those without millions to cushion the blow - especially the blow of false accusation.
2
There are business relationships and there are personal relationships in order to be on the safe side never mix the two.
5
From all that is known so far, it's a travesty that Garrison Keillor was fired. A line has to be drawn, otherwise it's a free for all witch hunt.
4
I see a lot of commenters equating being fired, losing out on prime opportunities, or the like as equivalent to some judicial process. And the thing is, it's not. If your work dries up because of a false accusation, you have recourse through the courts. Nobody can be locked up without due process, of course, but none of these guys have been locked up without due process. But if you lose a producership or a TV option because of a true accusation of sexual harassment, then that's an extrajudicial process that has nothing to do with the courts, and I'm fine with employers and businesses choosing to implement it. Most media employees are at-will.
85
The court of public opinion cares nothing for due process.
2
"If your work dries up because of a false accusation, you have recourse through the courts."
I don't know, Erin - in the current climate, do you really envision Al Franken or Garrison Keillor pursuing a lawsuit? Especially since Franken, at least, is very supportive of the "believe women" principle (which is why, I think, he hasn't fought back harder). There would be huge public pushback from some quarters, even if they were exonerated in court.
(Look at the case of Jian Ghomeshi, where public pushback kept his accusers from being prosecuted even after they were caught red-handed in perjury and collusion.)
I would feel a lot better about the destruction of SO MANY reputations and careers due to accusations of sexual harassment if I felt a high degree of confidence that they were all true. At what point (if any) does it become a witch hunt borne of anger, jealousy, misinterpretation or animus? I do think that a person who denies alleged conduct deserves a fair hearing in the court of public opinion before being utterly destroyed.
I work a s a criminal defense attorney. I KNOW that just because someone makes an allegation doesn't mean it is always true. As fair minded Americans I think many people are forgetting that.
9
Before one can talk about redemption, one must talk about atonement.
8
A lot of men believe that what they are doing to women is just some version of flirting, but the women perceive it as an unwanted sexual advance or sexual harassment. In order to change the behavior of these men you need to keep applying the pressure of the public shame. No doubt. Most men are quite obtuse. However, things would progress faster still if more women started initiating relationships. This creates a situation where men don’t feel that they need to be as sexually aggressive all the time around women. The end result is that the unwanted sexual advance and the harassment start to fade away.
4
Wonderful. It's the women's fault for not initiating more relationships. As a woman, I'm tired of being told I have to teach men how to behave.
7
I'm a woman and I agree with this. We all need to change the cultural attitudes toward courtship. Perhaps then, things will start to shift in our attitudes toward each other.
3
I’m not blaming the victim. The fact is you wouldn’t be here today if your father didn’t hit on your mother at some point. Someone needs to initiate the relationship. Men are taught at an early age that it is better to ask for forgiveness later than permission first. This reckoning is an attempt to change that mindset. However, nature abhors a vacuum. Men have long been the pursuers and women the pursued. I’m not suggesting that this dynamic should be flipped 100% on its head, but in the spirit of equality, how does 50-50 sound?
2
Amazing. After being driven out of our near-east side Detroit neighborhood by crime and violence I had similar emotions towards a group of people.
I'm with you Amber. How does that go.... oh yeah, I feel your pain.
Well obviously as a man, my opinion is completely unwanted on this subject. I have no right to have my say, I'm as evil and molesting as every other man, all men are horrible and should be executed, no doubt.
Nonetheless, I don't care about redemption. I don't feel a need to be redeemed; I've never done anything harmful to any woman in my life, never sexually assaulted anyone, I'm innocent. Accusations might be leveled against me someday, people might condemn me, but that matters nothing to me, because I'm happy with my past actions.
I don't care if people don't want to redeem Al Franken and Kevin Spacey either. I can see them as great but flawed men, and I'd vote for Franken if I could, and I'll definitely see movies starring Spacey again.
As an aside, people might not be ready for the redemption part, but bad news y'all, this flavor-of-the-month has until about Christmas to be active. After that it'll be a slightly changed set of rules, but the ADHD America will jump to some other meme and forget most of this. Remember the monument tearing down craze? Remember the attempt to change gun laws? America has no attention span, and so this time too, very little change will come out of all this.
30
If the opportunity arose, I’d certainly vote for Franken, because his politics happen to be my politics and I think his sins were more tasteless than venal. Spacey is a different matter. The fact of his being gay was old news and seemed not to interfere with his deservedly successful acting career. People didn’t watch his performances thinking, “Oh, there’s a guy who’s gay playing someone who isn’t.” But how can we watch him now without his predatory character being uppermost in our minds?
4
No Dan your comment is not unwanted. Why the blanket statement and why start off yours with a dismissive attitude? All comments are welcome feelings won't be hurt we are all adults and I'm sure most of us can listen to a differing POV unlike some people found on these boards.
6
Dan,
Probably not the best choice to make this all about yourself. Topped off with a big 'ol dollop of 'this won't change anything'.
Yours truly,
Mike
5
Even if women may argue as a man I have no right to say so, I feel it sounds vindictive to claim disgraced men should not be forgiven until a great deal of time goes by. Nothing will be the same for these shamed men ever again and that’s a very long time. Showing you’re a decent man around women, in other words a decent human being, is what merits forgiveness. Doing that can start right now and appreciating it can too.
7
There are so many talented and deserving people in Hollywood looking to rise up and prove themselves, why should anyone spend any time holding up that line of advancement and innovation so that some so-called "great man" can keep his place in it after a damaging scandal?
Nobody is ENTITLED to success in Hollywood. Or in Washington. The respect of your professional community is something you have to earn. If you lose it, too bad for you. Those are the breaks, my friend.
4
You've missed the point of the article. Please re-read it.
1
It should not be about redemption versus salvation. It is about proportionality. Not all harassment or sexual misconduct deserves the same response. It all falls on a spectrum. The accusations against George H.W. Bush and Al Franken are on one end; the accusations against Weinstein and Moore on the other. Louis C.K. is somewhere in the middle. Perhaps the right answer is that he never work in the business again. But that can't be the answer for every action up and down the spectrum - it lacks proportionality. In ancient Greece, Draco proposed the death penalty for minor offenses and now his name lends itself to a term describing overly harsh punishments. These proposals are Draconian.
19
The majority of the men’s comments are all about diminishing what men have done to women. Instead of focussing on the degree of the offence, let’s focus on this - women have been abused since time immemorial and to many varying degrees. My message to men is stop the abuse, start believing women and ensure women and all future generations of women will be safe. Then let’s talk about redemption
Thank you for this thoughtful opinion piece. Yes, the reckoning has begun.
40
Its not about diminishing what men have done to women, its once again about fitting the crime to the punishment. If I told you that someone who was convicted for possession of cocaine should be jailed for 20 years without parole, would you think that is fair? My response to you is: this behavior should not be tolerated; I believe the women; and we should do everything we can to "ensure women and all future generations of women will be safe." Casting every guilty man from society does not accomplish that.
2
Blindly doing anything is ridiculous.
Why, why, why in ANY of these conversations is NO one talking about the need for men to take responsibility for themselves? Why is no one talking about the need for men to learn the basic behaviors that can help them avoid being accused in the first place. Behaviors like: Don't touch women in the workplace or community groups like church. Don't comment on appearance, even a haircut. Be careful of personal questions. The conversation here seems to be all about punishing the guilty, redemption and whether it's OK if some innocents go down in the process. But what about ordinary men just stepping up and saying "What can I do, what can WE do now to ensure that the women around us have no reason to feel uncomfortable or accuse us of misconduct? THAT is the conversation I want to hear.
32
Really, a man can’t say “Nice haircut” or “You look lovely today?” That makes me sad because I LIKE being able to tell a coworker that his new tie looks great. This is when we go too far.
8
Since when did "Nice haircut" become a "basic" no no in human interactions.
Men say they're confused. Frankly, so am I.
8
Don't comment on a haircut? Maybe we men should just cease all interactions with women because of the potential for offense.
5
"'Your' old power is over" is the strongest statement in the piece. This is all about power. In our current world men hold the power--military, financial, academic, political and perhaps most socially important in culture, and religion. In law the professions and judiciary are heavily male tilted. Unless and until there is parity of gender power individual male redemption is a very secondary consideration.
we can and must build a different and better future. Ignoring and demeaning the judgement, courage, skills and opinions of half the human race must stop. It can be headed toward us only when we institute legal quotas for gender parity on Boards of Directors(public, private and non-profit corporations of any and all legal entities), C Suite members, political representation, military/legal/police and judiciary positions and yes, artistic, cultural, academic and religious organizations. To date nothing else has worked and by now we should be wise enough to know nothing else will.
To men who say they are love their mothers, wives, partners and daughters men who claim to be good I say it is time to prove it. To the predators, past, present and future we are right now only in the earliest of the early steps of this process so my suggestion is this: listen, learn, truly accept responsibility for your actions, words and thoughts. We do know that people can and do change while actions do have consequences.
We CAN do this. We MUST do this.
17
Well at least you're honest. Gender quotas are illegal and unconstitutional, though. And I have no idea how you'd even begin to enforce that in the artistic community. Stephen King is a white straight male. He's also a far better writer than Roxane Gay even though Gay is a black woman. Are you proposing that people be forced to buy Gay's works over King's?
1
We seem to be focused on women abused by famous men, men in power. What about everyday women, who still have no recourse: especially women who for a myriad of reasons will lose their jobs if they complain. And many times, the abuser is their boss: not a famous man, but a man who holds their employment in his hands. From whom shall they obtain their justice? When you say "women fell comfortable " naming names and actions, perhaps in some circles there will be justice. But for many women, nothing has changed.
49
Amber it is my hope that not all of these men disappear. If we are to break this pattern of powerful men abusing women we need open discussion and education of what constitutes unacceptable behavioir for the benefit of young men and men in leadership positions. I would hope that some of these men who have committed these offenses man up and get involved in not only their own re-education but in becoming spokespersons for this all too important societal problem.
40
Please. These men know that what they do is wrong. They only claim ignorance when caught.
6
Really??? You really think that any sane person does not understand that rape is not acceptable? That insisting on sex for jobs is not acceptable? Now telling a dirty joke is not acceptable, but not as severe as most of what is happening here. We need action not conversation.
6
Oh baloney! These are men who have the veneer of manners and can function just fine in the world! Are you actually saying they have never been taught to not rape or use power against another person in a sexual manner? They don't need re-education, they know! They operate in secret. They just don't care.
1
I've been inclined for a couple of decades to support female causes across the board.
However, the combo of rage, glee and self-righteousness this media frenzy has engendered on the part of most female commentators has caused me to reflect. I'll be much more circumspect going forward, believe me.
I voted for Hillary largely because she's a woman in spite of some misgivings. Might be a while before I do that again.
12
I'm one woman who still believes in balance and fairness and equality. It appears that some of sisters have slipped off the cliff into a dark place of hatred.
7
Perhaps it's because we are finally being heard after being silenced and ignored for so long. Dave unfortunately or perhaps fortunately you will never know what it means to be harassed in any degree. Women live in fear not all the time but we don't have the freedoms that men have. We can't walk out late at night for fear of what might happen at the hands of men. You aren't killed because you brought shame to your family. You don't have acid thrown in your face because of something you might have done. Think about it before you dismiss us.
13
DaveD:
Take it from me, you have some work to do.
Best regards,
Mike
4
I worked at Miramax in the 90s. I was in my 40s so I was safe. (And that should make you sick too). About four or five years after I left I got big check in the mail. Surprise! Unpaid Overtime Class Action Suit! Whoopee! BECAUSE THEY DON'T RESPECT WORKING PEOPLE.
Its not a Woman Thing. It's a RESPECT thing.
10
I'm a white man who has no trouble conceding my white privilege in American society. I grew up poor, with some other difficulties and yet I know it was easier because I was white. I'm also aware of that privilege now and I like to think it affects how I conduct myself on a daily basis. Nevertheless, I don't like being lumped in with "men" in essays like this one. There's something that feels wrong about it to me. This has led me to believe both that I'm a hypocrite when it comes to gender, and that the discourses of gender and race are more different than I had previously considered.
6
I do not lump all men together at all. I take offense at this piece as well as the attitude that all men, especially white men, are to be reviled. I say this as a daughter, a wife, a sister and an aunt to men.
3
This is the most reflective comment I've read so far. Thanks for at least thinking through your reactions. It's a willingness many people don't have - and we really need men to demonstrate that willingness to reflect.
Retribution isn't what we need. It's CHANGE. Change so that an administrative assistant that gets harassed next week by a colleague or her boss has a safe way to report that and is taken seriously. (Let's remember that the majority of American women can't afford to quit their job, therefore are likely even more afraid to speak out.) We need change so that all employees receive regular training on what to do if they observe sexual harassment, what to do if they are harassed, a clear policy of what is acceptable and unacceptable behavior and a management team that is committed to that policy. And recourse if companies don't respond to complaints or allow toxic environments. None of this will matter if these changes aren't made. And vilifying all in the same manner rather than recognizing there are differences in actions WILL backfire.
8
It never ceases to amaze me how people of different groups assume that, because they are part of that group, they can speak for all of them. I've talked to many women about these allegations and opinion has been as divided as it is amongst my male friends, but most people are scared to speak up in this environment.
Your opinions are not universally shared by all women, and as cathartic as it may feel to be so angry, many people see it as sexist, intolerant and lacking the kind of nuance that makes our societies and communities fair.
23
Redemption? If and only if its earned.
4
just a little though, i am a french guy in New York, not very comfortable with his strong accent, yesterday a woman was walking on the front of me form the bus to the subway entrance, a part on her long scarf laying on the ground, impossible for me to speak with her : to much noise. I spending few long second in my mind asking for my self if i"had the right" to put one finger against her shoulder to warn her, i was really afraid of the possibility of a violent reaction. On the front of the downstairs, i realized that it was sure that an accident would come. I touched her and showed the scarf, i am not in jail, not this time.
12
How sad. How very, very sad that it has now come to this.
2
Pierre, as a woman I would certainly not be offended by your action. I'd be appreciative and thank you for bringing it to my attention as I would hope any woman would have done.
6
It is important to remember that society plays a part in any discussion about the proliferation of dysfunctional male behavior. Men do not raise themselves from birth, as neither do women. The household, the school, the community, and yes even the church, synagogue, or mosque contribute to how we are brought up and interact as people. We always like to think of ourselves as moral and ethical but often sidestep when it is convenient and something is to be gained. Self-control is shelved. I am not sure that redemption is the proper term in a discussion of the male treatment of women. This is an age old problem and not something that just appeared when Harvey Weinstein and Bill Cosby, et al., entered from stage right. We would have to go back to graves, through the Bible, Koran, or Torah. I am Jewish as are several of the accused. I have no inclination to harass a woman sexually, or in any way for that matter, yet I am not applying for Tzadikim (Jewish saintly equivalence) as I know I wouldn't qualify.
I do know though that we are all human beings capable of change if we wish. Hopefully, it does not take one's death to make a change to the good. So look in the mirror, wish yourself well, and go out into the world as someone respectable, respecting the lives of others.
7
The vast majority of comments to this article by men (at least based on the names they have chosen to write under) continue to show how different their views are on this subject than women. The male commenters are concerned about getting blamed for something they didn't do, or another man didn't do. Or they blame women for not coming forward or supporting the wrong candidate. Or they claim that this is all about women wanting to punish men to satisfy women's rage. Or they point out that women are also abusers. And so on and so forth. Among the comments under male names, I don't think I saw a single one that was wholly in agreement with or sympathetic to Ms. Tamblyn's views.
It is hard to see how this male/female divide can ever be breached on the subject of sexual harassment. Sad.
9
It is completely logical and expected that most men, who have never harassed, raped or assaulted anyone, would be a little queasy at the Manichean world view being advanced by Tamblyn. Most men are not multi-millionaires. They need their jobs. They don't want to lose them because of false accusations.
This divide could be breached if more women took the initiative to start relationships, with the full understanding that if they said or did something a particular man didn't like, or simply weren't that man's cup of tea, that the man could charge them with harassment years or even decades later.
Heh.
I would have turned that man's question right back to him. Do you believe in redemption for all the black men in our prisons for crimes stemming from poverty? Or are you only interested in redemption for men like you? You don't deserve any more chance at redemption than anyone else our society has deemed criminal. Don't expect my sympathy because a problem that you that you have previously ignored now affects you. I am not ready for any redemption that doesn't extend beyond white men of privilege. In fact, I'm not sure I'm ready for any redemption that includes them.
8
Again, you're painting with a very broad brush! Some crimes are worse than others! None of us is God, therefore, humans must decide can reasonably redeem him or herself after something bad has happened. As for black men in prison- what are they there for? There is a difference between rape or murder and pot possession.
3
My father lived in the projects of Newark decided at a very young age that he wanted a better life and made something of himself. Stop blaming poverty, others for people committing crimes. It's called personal responsibility.
2
I am happy that all these men in power are finally being called out. They should get what punishment they deserve. Unfortunately, it seems that everyone is headed towards the same punishment.
Full disclosure here, I am a man. I am a progressive.
While I completely agree with what is being said here and ALL sexual harassment is wrong and should not be tolerated. It seems to me that the 'offenses' in these past months that have been reported go from stupid transgressions to crimes. My biggest problem is that in this media "feeding frenzy"everything is being treated the same.
While what Al Franken did was juvenile and highly inappropriate it dosen't come close to as troubling as what Louis C.K. has admitted to. The sexual assault that President Trump has admitted to and is now trying to retract, or the pedophilia that Kevin Spacey and Roy Moore have been accused of should be handled much more harshly and I don't believe that's happening.
My biggest fear is that when redemption does come say for an Al Franken, sooner rather than later because his transgressions are less egregious than the others accused. Because everyone is being thrown into the same boat once one is redeemed the media, I fear, will say o.k. it was all much ado about nothing. It's not much ado about nothing it's much ado about something and that something is very, very important.
Any thoughts on this?
8
Agree! We've lost our ability to think critically here. Some of these men are actual perverts and some of these men made mistakes and some of these men didn't do anything. The court of public opinion in this country is becoming all too powerful. (P.S. I am a woman).
You know I don't know about Louis CK, frankly dont know who he is. What Im pretty sure is that unlike me he is not suffering heart failure just as my health insurance is endangered. I hear these blanket condemnations of men within the entertainment business, Im just a teacher and in that profession there is not alot of touching, regardless of what you read in the profession. So I resent all this about how all men are abusers and liars and all women truth tellers and victims, and if you are a feminist and don't believe in the most rigid gender essential-ism I would think you would reject it too. Mostly, I think maybe we should give more time to the millions of people for which today will be the beginning of a lifetime descent into poverty,sickness and fear....ok now you can go back to the walk of the stars
9
You have the right to resent the blanket statement all you want, but the reality is that harassment, rape, inappropriate actions happen every day.
EVERY. SINGLE. DAY.
Until communities teach young men the difference between appropriate and inappropriate interactions, bodily autonomy, and to be responsible for their own actions, I frankly don't care how our fear and anger makes YOU feel.
Sorry about the heart failure, though.
6
In response to Glen Goldstein:
Based on what we know, none of the men Ambler Tamblyn mentions in this article are innocent. However, they have been accused of vastly different gradations of aberrant behavior. For example, should Al Franken be hounded out of the Senate for one repugnant frat boy moment? In my opinion the answer is no, as he appears to have sincerely apologized, and, with his very public shaming. has already paid the price. Meanwhile, D. Trump sits in his towers of power tweeting away about the unacceptable acts, sexual and otherwise, of his innumerable enemies. Let pursuit of sexual predation and other criminal behaviors start at the top, and let the punishments fit the crimes.
3
Franken now has a total of five accusers. How does that translate to "one repugnant frat boy moment?" (Franken was not a "frat boy" at the time of the photo.) How many does it take to believe he has a problem? He made jokes about rape during his time as an entertainer, and as a born-Minnesotan and Democrat I sincerely wish he would resign. I can think of few politicians today who are greasing the path for Roy Moore in Alabama more than Franken. I believe if he really cared about his constituents and the Senate, he would leave. Governor Mark Dayton can appoint a new Democrat, one whose effectiveness has not been undermined. I do not believe Franken when he says he "can't remember," the age old call of people who want to avoid guilt.
Thank you, Amber, great column.
4
This article begins and ends in very different places. First, we hear that "we can and will" lump rape together with lewd exposure. Statements like this only further undermine the critical opportunity for change that #MeToo represents.
But then, we hear that Louis C.K. will be back in a year and we will all get on with it. But Weinstein, of course, will not be.
Which is it, and what point is being made here?
Truthfully, Tamblyn ends up being unusually forgiving, while presenting herself as being unmoved. Even I don't think C.K. will be back in a year. But sure, he'll be enjoying widespread success once again not long after that. Weinstein, meanwhile, will never work again in Hollywood, and may yet go to prison.
6
I am fine with no redemption for Weinstein, Spacey, Trump, Rose, Lauer (the list goes on and on). But what the headline says is "I'm not ready for the redemption of men". Guess what, I am not asking for redemption, I don't need it. I am responsible for my actions and my behavior, not Louis C.K.'s.
13
And one certainly does not need the redemption of a nobody like the author of this article. Is there no one with a rich history of writing to provide more authoritative insight on these questions rather than someone born in 1983? Toni Morrison? Alice Walker? Camille Paglia? You get the idea. Thankfully, without such insight from insightful women, this too shall pass.
2
The real change, as always, will be unintended, and will take form in our culture’s shadow. All of this is surface turbulence.
7
You mean the real lack of change.
I don't think change is avoidable, but it may not be the change you wish for.
3
The issue should never be framed as "men" but rather the actions of, we hope, a few men who have used their power, their money and other attributes to abuse the faith and trust of women and their employers. Is it possible that some of these specific men whose violations of trust and decency were not of the grossest nature to be, if not forgiven, allowed a place in normal society?
These are individual cases and surely we are sophisticated enough to distinguish between impolite or improper advances and grotesque actions. If you say there is no redemption possible for any man accused of anything, it seems you are trying to use this mass exposure of wrongdoing to score points more than contribute to change and improvement.
We have told ourselves lies about sexuality, some of them routed in the feminist movements of the 1960s and '70s, but virtually all of them related to the social need to have, and to believe we have, established rules for behavior. Now we have to face truths we don't like, especially as it relates to powerful men who otherwise had a respectful place in the public eye. Eventually, we will calm down and work this out.
Leaving aside the gross offenders, is everything a person did in his life negated by some instances of poor behavior? To believe that, it helps to see women as helpless victims
I write these thoughts has one who was aggressively sought out by males, gay and otherwise, in teenage years. It was a rude introduction to sexuality, not life defining.
10
How many dozens of men across multiple fields have to be accused before it isn't a "few" men? I also believe you didn't read the article, which just states that sexual harassment should have a certain amount of consequences, and that redemption would have to be earned, not given after a certain period of time (coughcough Chris Brown coughcough).
5
Erin -- a dozen men across politics and entertainment is indeed a "few."
3
Erin. there are roughly 160 million males in the US. A few dozen or even a few hundred or even a few thousand men who have harassed someone is indeed a few.
Judging all members of a group by the misdeeds of a few is one of the hallmarks of bigotry. People seem to understand this when it comes to blacks or women or Muslims or immigrants or Hispanics or gays.
1
Not all instances of sexual harassment or sexual abuse are equally reprehensible. Some are worse than others; the consequences for those who commit these acts should be commensurate with the gravity of the offense. The author's "line deep in the sand" sounds like zero tolerance, an engineering term that came from the space program. It can be usefully applied to spacecraft components, but not to the complexities of human behavior.
16
Our whole system of law attempts to strike a balance of fairness to accused and accuser. Also to discriminate between the level of egregiousness in a particular crime. It seems Ms. Tamblyn wants to just toss all this in the trashcan. I hope she realizes this is the judicial model most likely favored by our Mr. Trump. One based on vengeance and mere accusation. While our sympathy is always with the victims of any crime, we must remember that in our system of justice, it's not a crime against an individual we seek to address but a crime against society itself. Ultimately criminal prosecution is about maintaining a civil society. Passion and anger can, as hard as it is, play no part in it.
6
Too many men have acted like pigs towards women for ions. A whole range of behavior from what Franken did to what Weinstein did, to even worse has gone unchecked so I’m glad to see these high powered dirt bags get outed for what they truly are and I hope the consequences last long enough for them to earn a legitimate redemption thru changed behavior. At the same time, I hope this seismic shift renews a greater appreciation for social norms that used to govern what was deemed appropriate behavior between men and women. Does it occur to anyone that society established norms, that were routinely mocked by the way, to combat behavior that was even worse and more widespread than it is today? Too many people think we are smarter and more advanced than previous generations, but it just isn’t true - what’s wrong with a return to expecting young men to act like Gentlemen and to value chivalry for the societal benefits it seeks to provide?
5
Because chiyalry is patronizing and infantilizes women. Chivalry says you must open doors for us and protect us from the evils of the world because we are beautiful, fragile beings who deserve to be worshipped. That is not what women want.
2
Yes, men should treat women just like they treat men. No compassion, no kindness, no breaks during their periods or during pregnancies.
1
It might not be what you want, but the alternative to chivalry that "feminazi"s have advocated for since the 60's is a myth and a factor in the behavior we are rightly condemning today. The alternative to chivalry is not a society that will have healthy relationships btw the sexes - it will be the society we see throughout the Muslim world. One that treats women like chattel and where might makes right, which is a not the type of society that women want to live in.
I don't believe in redemption by apology. Mistreatment of another person is wrong, and being sorry does not make the actions go away. The only one in a position to forgive is the victim, and anything else is a distraction.
These apologies after getting caught are vacuous and meaningless.
The best the perpetrator should hope for is the opportunity to work for a better world in which such things do not happen.
14
I am in agreement with Ms. Tamblyn. I grew up during the sixties when the feminist movement was reborn out of the civil rights movement. Women were questioning what their functions or positions were in organizations such as SNCC and the anti-war movement. Two women, one black, one white, wrote a position paper in which they criticized the male dominant leadership of SNCC. Stokely Carmichael, the head of the organization at the time responded to the critique with this:
"There is only one position for women in the movement and it is on their backs."
If you are a successful man who has achieved wealth, fame, and power from an ability to be more aggressive than the guy you are competing with, this aggression often translates into using sex as a weapon and it stinks.
Do you deserve to lose everything? Yes you do but you might walk away with an understanding that fame and celebrity are most likely the worst karma the universe has to offer.
13
Kwame Toure (Carmichael) was joking. He was poking fun at people he saw as reactionary., He was actually one of the more progressive members of SNCC, as was made clear by the many women in SNCC who came to his defense after the vicious warping of his remarks.
too soon, way too soon. it's not near finished yet. let the process move on and cleanse the worst out of our national conscience. the holdouts in politics will have to be dealt with too. the consequences will be worked out. none of these outed monsters have gone to jail, or had their money affected. they've been disgraced, which is what they deserve. the famous ones are those that gave validation to the rest. let this be a moment that changes the standards we live by. it's high time.
6
I’m starting to think the rate at which these accusations of sexual misconduct are accumulating could undercut whatever gains could be made by exposing the perpetrators.
Like the endless bad news connected with Trump, or gun violence, the sexual predator onslaught is already having a numbing effect. The speed with which these reports are accumulating leads to skepticism.
And the more frequently these perpetrators come to light, the more practiced the routine of suppressing the damage will become. Some claim to be startled that, say, a Matt Lauer could meet his demise so instantaneously. So decisively.
But I think it is mostly illusory. NBC has no choice but to distance itself from this behavior as quickly as possible so that advertisers would not jump ship. Maybe it’s not so much about outrage as simple expedience in the interest of not losing revenue.
Knowing, too, that pendulums swing, time passes, and redemption, or the illusion thereof, is not outside the realm of possibility.
5
Applying one punishment unilaterally - casting out of public view , destruction of career, wiping away artistic records - for all infractions at all severity levels seems like a form of liberal McCarthyism to me.
Yes, redemption needs to be a part of the process, and you deserve a shot at redemption based on the severity of your past infraction and your willingness to acknowledge it and make amends.
And yes, it (redemption) needs to be talked about now because all of this is happening now, at an incredibly accelerated pace.
10
“Liberal McCarthyism”: the communists didn’t mistreat women though, did they? I bet you don’t think that those correctly accused of harassment and worse will get an apology in 30 years.
McCarthy was strong. These accusers are the weak, the victims.
1
Very, very well said.
1
This "battle" (if that's what it is) has already been lost because only Democrats seem to be engaged in even puny efforts to correct and even the balance. With the exception of Barbara Comstock of Virginia (who will probably lose her seat next year) no Republicans are speaking out on this at all except in quick obligatory soundbites. The matter is already heading toward overkill, boredom, oblivion. And yes, Louis CK, Spacey, et al will be making their comebacks when the time is right.
3
"The man on the couch next to me was disconcerted, making an argument that while Louis C.K.’s actions certainly merited serious consequences, what he did and what Harvey Weinstein did are two very different things. We shouldn’t lump them all together, he insisted. The woman was firm with her response: “Yes, we can and we will. Choosing consequences doesn’t belong to you anymore.”
So no difference between RAPE and and what Louis C.K. did, hunh? I, like every other decent, reasonable man wants sexual predators punished, but this type of rhetoric is beginning to sound a bit crazy to me. I hope that those pushing this kind of take no prisoners/off with their heads agenda are ready for the inevitable backlash, that by their overreach, they are making worse by the minute...
81
No one is dying here. Typical male privileged response. You do the crime, why shouldn't you do the time? What Louis C. K. did was a form of rape, if you happen to be in the position of a woman with no power.
5
No, no difference.
Deal with it.
Bit of a straw man there. HW’s punishment fits Louis’s crime. That’s why the lumping is okay. The punishment fits low-level but repeated sexual misconduct.
There are men out here, Amber, who are furious at the high-profile miscreants and monsters featured over the last several weeks exposing themselves, grabbing buttocks, chasing 14-year-olds, raping subordinates, etc. Our rage is a little different than yours, however. When we encounter a friendly smile, someone who appears on the surface to be kind or attractive, and we say "Hello" ..... and get a response that goes like this: "Oh God. Spare me. Get lost creep!" .... we know she's run across a few of the budding Moores, Weinsteins, Louis C.K.s, Lauers, Aileses or O'Rileys in her life and we've just been "lumped". Yes, it's a moment of national reckoning. But please keep in the back of your mind somewhere that not every son, brother, father, uncle is a malevolent creep. Some of us are just awkward and find people like Weinstein as sickening as you do .... both for what they've done to women ..... and what they've done to us as well.
63
Dude, she was lumping the perpetrators.
And complaining that a victim is out off men just because they are a victim is not cool IMHO.
2
As if a woman who smiled at you, JKL, and then freaked out is a valid hypothetical. So many male commenters are so defensive, it's amazing.
4
I am so so very sorry for the heartache and trauma you have experienced. Really.
No, not really. Are you serious??? You're sickened because you couldn't get a flirt in line at Starbucks??? Like anyone would owe you that under the best of circumstances?? And maybe, just MAYBE that woman is done done done with men constantly trying to catch her eye, chat her up, direct her focus to them because whatever she's doing, reading, listening to, waiting for, deep in thought about is so much less important than talking to YOU.
9
There is bound to be some celebration, but the issue is not whether some powerful men acted with gross indecency toward women, but whether all men, in varying degrees, are guilty of enabling, encouraging or allowing such conduct. An indictment: all men. No men are decent, no men conduct themselves professionally, those in newsrooms and entertainment venues who did not break down the shuttered office door were passive participants in evil. Is that the charge? Too much.
The purpose of making it would be to weaken males generally, to make everyone a suspect. Outside of our own social circles, however, men are presently suspected rapists, or worse, everywhere they go. The car door lock that gives a sharp "snap" as it is locked when a man is walking passed The female who fearfully refuses to give directions to a man in broad daylight in a safe area where police are nearby? Okay, too. Those men. Those horrible, horrible men can't be trusted.
So, a few high profile men have been cast into one of the levels of hell and almost no one, myself included, has any sympathy for the worst offenders. For those in the public eye, one could never see them again without thinking of their acts of intimidation or assault. This should not be tuned into an indictment of males generally. Changes need to be made, but constructively.
Sexuality is a fact of human existence. It doesn't always fit into the established norms. We need to deal with this realistically with tough honesty and some grace.
4
No, that is not the charge. So, no straw men, please.
Also (straw man alert) are you suggesting women not lock their car doors lest they hurt someone’s feelings?
5
It's funny how they all apologize AFTER they are caught and found out isn't it? They are never sorry for their heinous actions while it's happening. Like a mass murderer finding God while serving his life sentence. Too late guys. Far too late. As someone who has experienced men's unwanted advances at the workplace it is never OK, do you hear us???? NEVER.
Why must you men be told to control your unhealthy urges where women are concerned? Some of us have apparently evolved while others not so much. And why is Trump still in office???????????
30
Trump should've been the first to go if we're being honest.
I was thinking the exact same thing today. It's not like this tidal wave started a few days ago. Lauer for instance, could have seen what was happening, realized he's acted like a digusting pig for YEARS, then resigned and issued a heartfelt apology BEFORE one of his victims finally went to the HR dept. at NBC-U.
My guess? He didn't feel the least bit of remorse for his actions, and maybe still doesn't.
1
When is Donald Trump going to be held accountable? Nothing can be written about this subject, and skip over the orange pig in the room. I sadly apologize to pigs.
23
why is Anthony Weiner in jail? All he did was text explicit photos of his physique to the women of America--he didn't physically grope anybody. Yet at the beginning November he had to report to prison. All Weiner did was use poor judgement
Weiner should be released immediately.
3
No, he belongs there, for doing something similar to what Moore did. Moore should also be in jail. I will give you this, Weiner only sent pictures and tried to hook up, Moore was there in the flesh
3
Recall he was sexting to a minor. The consequences were appropriate.
5
Dear Sharon5101,
I think the main reason is actually because Weiner texted one photo with his son pictured sleeping next to him. Unfortunately that became distributing salacious content with a child involved, and that's where he crossed the criminal line rather definitively.
3
Meanwhile Al Franken and John Conyers are still in Congress and Trump is the national Executive. Public funds make Congressmen's harrassment troubles disappear. Moore will be in Congress soon. CK and Lauer and Spacey will be back before long with boilerplate baloney about self exploration. This is all a big sturm and drang without real bite.
4
Not "women good, men bad" again. As a man who has been treated so badly by women that I now avoid any relationship, I'm sick of being lumped in with the jerks. There are plenty of manipulative, jerk women out there too.
40
Please continue to avoid relationships. You are doing everyone else a huge favor.
7
Absolutely. I have known men who have PTSD from seriously abusive relationships with women. It's NOT "women good, men bad". Well, not mostly.
It's the scale and the gross ratio of bad men to bad women. It's the normalization of this inequality between men and women that until relatively recently if you were married and your husband raped you it wasn't really rape if he didn't beat the living daylights out of you. The law protected you, the man.
3
In the area of cultural sexploitation are we allowed to point out the widely promoted Victoria's Secret Fashion Show or the many celebrity awards shows where women on the runway proudly compete to see how shocking and revealing the latest outfit is?
1
Sing it, sister.
11
Tamblyn does not seem to grasp that this sort of shrill, hate-filled diatribe against the entire opposite sex, and Tamblyn's apparent inability to distinguish between guilt and innocence (or worse her willful disregard of the difference), are the sort of thing that will set women's rights back light years. If voters have to choose between a vile Trump or a vindictive Tamblyn, they'll choose Trump.
10
It’s not against the whole male group. Only a tiny minority have been accused. And all have been accused by multiple women. It seemed to start with Bill Cosby, and there needed to be about 50 accusers for them to be believed!
3
Andrew:
It's against "the whole male group." Read it. Tamblyn says she is "not ready for the redemption of men." She's not talking about a few guilty men.
Every time a man calls a woman who speaks up "shrill", he shows his cards. It's a commonly invoked epithet for women by men. I'm over it.
1
I choose you.
5
This all on the liberal feminists. When I was a boy you were expected to be chaste until marriage, Marry one woman for life and raise children in marriage.
The liberal feminist of the sixties believed in "free love" "marriage was just a piece of paper" and now people live together before marriage and sex is a given after the first date.
Guess what... now men do not respect women or their bodies. Destroying the fabric of society has consequences. Societies rules are there to protect the innocent, women and children and when they are discarded by liberals it becomes a "Lord of the Flies" world.
Good luck with trying to institute "rules" after you have discarded them because "women want to be equal in all things"... The cat is out of the bag.
4
Uh, cesplin, just no. As an old woman, whose adolescence predates the feminist movement of the 1960's, I can assure you that men acting in disrespectful and predatory ways towards women in the workplace, in schools and churches, and on the street, cannot be blamed on feminism or the free love hippies of 60 years ago. I am old now but the anger at how I was treated by men never diminishes.
13
Maybe this has something to do with the fact that while 80% of women claim to be in favor of gender equality only less than 20% identify as feminists.
So in your dream world I suppose that women would wear chastity belts and kneel at the feet of their masters? Glad I live in the real world.
1
We men dont need your redemption. Sexual predators are a different thing.
10
"I dare do all that may become a man, who dares do more is none."
Amen.
I’m a man and my honest feeling on this situation is that I don’t care in the least bit. The women are not “victims” unless they were shut out of their respective oppprtunities and careers. If they were held against their will and raped it should have been reported to the authorities. The perp should be arrested and thrown in jail. If a woman was coerced into sex it should have been reported to HR and management. The perp should be fired and have to fight the realities of acceptance & tolerance to get another job. If a man masturbated in front of you (?), take pics/videos and report him. Make him the laughing stock of the world. Get him fired. If the woman acceded to the sexual demands of the man, and reaped the benefits this is tantamount to prostitution. Tough. Deal with it and yourself. There are plenty (supermajority) of women who don’t cut corners to carve out a successful career. I have no sympathy here. The assumption that a man doesn’t have equal amounts of pressure, coercion, and temptation in his path to success is false. In fact, a man has more societal pressure to produce and keep quiet about perceived transgressions in the work place.
This article about redemption & atonement is, as other commenters suggest, more about rage than anything else. The reality is if Louis CK can get an agent, get a venue, and get an audience he can and should be allowed to work. This is America not East Germany. Grow up.
33
Jesus, male privilege or what? It is responses like these that are causing the rage. Don't even talk until you walk a mile in their shoes, for God's sake.
15
Why do I need 'atonement' when I haven't done this? Pretty presumptuous.
2
I get the slimy. It's the intellectual part I find a tad questionable.
1
I am a man who completely agrees with you. I think your female writer friend was being too harsh in insisting Louis CK should never work again. But it is much too soon for redemption of any of these men. They should all stew in their shame and professional isolation before thinking about public redemption. I do think there are degrees of severity of these things, and that CK’s actions weren’t as reprehensible as Weinstein’s. But it’s important at this moment to show that none of it will be tolerated, so it’s not the time to split hairs when punishing these perpetrators. In a few years we can decide whether we want Louis CK to be accepted again as an artist, while definitely rejecting Harvey Weinstein’s attempts at redemption.
113
A bit disappointing that Amber only cares about the rich and famous. For normal people little is changing....
6
I must have missed that bit.
1
Here's a quick pop quiz, on a related issue. This is off topic, but nonetheless of some relevance.
What is by far the most consequential form of gender discrimination in the history of the United States?
Answer: The military draft.
Men, but never women, have been subjected to military conscription in the United States. During times of war, most recently Vietnam, many draftees have died and many more were seriously injured.
10
Way off target and completely irrelevant. Women have fought for years for an equal place in the services. You don't get to use this argument
4
I challenge your statement.
How many men have been affected by the draft? How many women have been affected by sexual harassment or assault, or rape in the workplace? I'd really like to see which has had greater consequence.
And, the draft has existed how long? 100 years, maybe? How long has sexual assault and harassment been going on?
I'd bet money that aggression towards women has had the greater consequence in US history. It's just less visible than the draft and its consequences.
4
Dear Alex,
It's not that relevant though, because it's been over 40 years since we've had a draft in operation. Sure, men are registered, but there's been no draft of anybody for quite awhile.
And it's obvious that, evolutionarily, men are the expendable combat types and women are the basis of the next generation, more suitable to be protected than to protect. Nobody much minds when huge numbers of young men get slaughtered, because they're replaceable; but the number of young women alive determines how large the next generation can be.
4
Al didn't grab, he hovered. Over a flak jacket. Louis and Harvey should be lumped, they did the same thing. Al didn't.
8
And his accuser was caught lying and has suffered no consequences.
Until she does, this movement has no credibility. Police your frauds, Amber.
2
No. Luis did not rape. Not the same.
3
I believe other women have come forward and said that he grabbed them on top of the "hovering" and the unwanted kiss towards that same woman.
What is the statute of limitation on this harassment issue? Even though a segment of the electorate voted for Trump, all the allegations against him should be investigated by the ethics committee, and at least a censure should be enforced. The case for impeachment is still on the table, there are many instances to back up this action, but it seems the Republicans are only interested in retaining power, no concern for the sullied image of the US or the hollowing out of institutions and norms or the President's beligerance, bigotry or fitness for duty. Just because a segment of the population seems to be immoral and prone to like red meat, the rest of us shouldn't have to accept ill behavior and the fruits of a sick society. We must take a stand. Franken should also resign, unfortunately, as well as Conyers. And the President must be scrutinized for his past and current actions. He is not well suited for the Presidency for much longer.
2
Speaking of Hollywood and the movies, what would women call Ann Bancroft hitting on Dustin Hoffman in the Graduate was? Probably the only reason no women have yet been exposed for the same as men of harassment is because their choice of words for what they do is different.
4
That was a movie, in other words, fiction. These transgressions happened to real women, not a male character.
4
"Speaking of Hollywood and the movies, what would women call Ann Bancroft hitting on Dustin Hoffman in the Graduate was?"
Simply put it was a movie and she'd be called a cougar now. Not saying there aren't women who have harassed men but it's far more prevalent with men doing the chasing.
3
Men do not complain. It's OK ladies. This is a MAN ONLY issue.
I am all for brutal reprisals against all bullies and exploiters- male, female, or otherwise- and opposed to redemption for them, yet I will not accept any blame for what i haven't done and won't help those who lump me in with the perps. I am opposed to any legal protections for the trumps, weinsteins, fiorinas, and wintours of the world are without any redeeming value. Decent, nice people are worth protecting. No bully is.
104
So who are you voting for on the 12th?
2
jack, i think you and amber are on the same page. i could be mis-reading what she's written but i don't think she's saying you are to be lumped in with people who don't respect women's bodies. she is just saying that women get to draw where the line in the sand is and that women need some time to sort out the varied response required to deal with someone who masturbates in front of you versus rapes you. it looks like a lot of male readers are feeling accused of something that she's not accusing them of. all she's asking is for males to listen, to be allies, to let women draw the line in the sand, and to respect that line.
3
Trump has not been accused of anything near these rapes, otherwise I totally agree. And it is not bullying, but rape.
1
What I do not see in this opinion piece is any evidence of proportionality. First, second and third degree murder have different penalties. There needs to be a written standard of what are first, second and third degree abuse and what are the penalties.
What I also do not see is evidence that women themselves believe in a single standard. For example, women are not helpless when dealing with politicians. They, and all voters, have the power to force change by not voting for politicians who abuse women. As long as large numbers of women continue to vote for Trump or Moore, then that sends creates a permissive environment that may influence people in other businesses.
Finally, the title of this opinion is sexist. All men are not abusers. What really is going on is that a few men abuse many women, so please don't stereotype.
10
I am tired of men not taking responsibility. Prime example here. If you really think this is only happening in the halls of power, then you are missing all the power dynamics detrimental to women in the world today, and are therefore part of the problem.
7
There is no need for proportionality because what happened to Harvey W was suitable for Louis CK - for now.
With each of these "Me Too" Op-Eds ( so many of them !! ) I immediately run a search for the word "Trump".
If his name isn't mentioned prominently, I don't read the article.
This article has ZERO mentions. ZERO.
These people all need to realize that Trump won, he's the leader, and he's says that you let them do it if you're a star.
He's the leader, and he sets the moral compass of the country, not Amber Tamblyn.
If she wants to make a difference, protecting the leader of the sexual predators is not going to get it done. In fact, it will embolden his crew to do it even more, because they know if accused, all they need to do is deny and point at Harvey Weinstein and they're in the clear.
6
This is a bogus argument. Amber Tamblyn was at the forefront trying to get Hillary elected. How dare you attempt to besmirch her and all other women fighting for their lives in such a dismissive way.
6
I'm a woman and I want measured discussion, not swift punishment, too. I believe in innocence until proven guilty, at least up to the preponderance of evidence standard. I want the punishment to fit the crime: there are different levels of offense -- lewd comments or jokes are not equal to rape or assault. I want to recognize that some women may have an agenda and their stories may be false or exaggerated (like the one who tried to set up the Washington Post), and should be taken seriously and investigated, not taken as a matter of absolute faith. I want the millions of decent, honorable men out there to be allies, not to be fighting a backlash because they are living in fear of a false accusation. I'm very, very sorry that some women have suffered abuse at the hands of men that has left them so angry they are willing to punish an entire gender (if a few good ones go down, so what). My grandmother was such a woman, molested as a child and hating men to then end of her days. I feel for them. But I am not one of them. Men remain my friends, coworkers, allies, relatives, and lovers. I want them given the same presumption of innocence I want for myself, and forgiveness when warranted.
64
Brava!
4
Yes we need to rid the world of the self-important bullying types that feel free to molest, harass and assualt women. But at some point, if we're honest, we also need to confront the women who have used their sex appeal to get ahead. Who are okay with doing whatever is asked of them, so long as it leads to a career benefit. None of this excuses the low-life men and the culture which takes advangate of this. Nevertheless: women also have an obligation to respond with integrity to these sexual advances, and make it clear they will not give in for the sake of moving up. Yes, I do blame my own gender for complicitiy in this problem.
154
Extraordinary false equivalence here.
13
"But at some point, if we're honest, we also need to confront the women who have used their sex appeal to get ahead."
No, we don't, because the women you're talking about don't force their sex appeal on others. They receive favors as the result of CONSENSUAL sexual encounters with men (and sometimes women). This is completely different from the NONCONSENSUAL sexual assaults perpetrated (mostly) by men on (mostly) women.
19
I have hopes that this moment will lead us all to a greater understanding of the dynamics that lead to these problems but many of the comments I'm seeing show that we still have a very long way to go.
The harassment and abuse of women by men and the "use of sex appeal to get ahead" are two sides of the same coin: the huge imbalance of power between men and women. This imbalance means that women are forced to learn to play the game in a way that minimizes their victimization and maximizes their benefit.
Before jumping to playing defense, I ask you to consider the question: is this taking place in an environment where men and women are working together as equals?
8
Thank you for writing this op-ed. Why should we worry about whether these men can re-establish their careers after they have been found guilty of sexual harassment? What about the women who have not been promoted because they refused a boss' sexual advances? What about the women who have felt uncomfortable or even afraid at work because of predatory co-workers or bosses? Women's careers and work lives are what we should focus on. I could care less about these mens' careers. Maybe their absence will make room for some highly talented women to take their place.
9
"What if the repercussion doesn’t fit the crime?”
The woman who accused Garrison Keillor of sexual harassment has not contradicted anything he has said about what happened. Based on just what he has said, she told him she was unhappy. He patted her back in an expression of emotional support. Her shirt was open so his hand went up abut 6 inches under her shirt. She recoiled. He apologized, both then and later in an e-mail.
N.P.R. has over-reacted by forcing Keillor off the air.
12
It was MPR, not NPR, and they overreacted and only did it to punish him for standing up for Al Franken.
1
Been thinking about this piece for hours. About relevance to my life and a sudden knowledge that these men don't really know what they take away from women against their will. Most men don't know what women have lost. Sometimes we don't even know ourselves. Recognizing the inner and outer manifestation of this insult shakes us to our very core of our sexuality and humanity. It can and does change the trajectory of a life. A doctor, lawyer, journalist, artist, that never became or warped. The knowledge that you cannot be safe, in any realm of life because predation is a fact of life you must always consider. And the disappointment, it's crushing especially later in life when you begin to understand the cumulative effect. What could we all have achieved without this interference?
18
While I agree that we live in a culture that is quick to forgive celebrities, and that redemption must be earned, we should never condemn all (men) for the failings of however many have transgressed. If we do that, we become guilty of criminal behavior as well. A perfect example of this transpired in our recent past: the spate of false memory accusations that erupted here and in some other Anglophone countries in the 1990s. You say, 'We (women) haven’t been silent because we forgot or made our stories up.' But during the epidemic of which I speak, numbers of women were led to believe that they were recovering memories of traumas (such as rape) that had supposedly been totally repressed due to their untenable horror. These women - and their psychiatric and psychotherapeutic enablers - accused and condemned the alleged rapists without any evidence other than these 'recovered' memories. To make a long story short, there was little scientific evidence for the repression of traumatic memories (and their supposed resurrection years later). So yes Ms Tamblyn, there was a period when numbers of women made stories up, believing that they had forgotten episodes of dramatic abuse. After numbers of men had been so accused, they sued the psychiatric/psychotherapeutic agents who convinced these women that they had been victims, even though they did not know this to begin with. The suits were successful, and this false memory business died a precipitous death.
4
There's a very interesting and pertinent question that I haven't seen addressed -- does being in a position of power make people act this way, or is it that the sort of people likely to attain power are likely to act this way?
1
Ms. Tamblyn is right, time for men to secede the floor.
This rapid fall of famous and powerful men is unprecedented and unnerving.
But to my take the big surprise is not that powerful men have been abusing women, but instead that women are now feeling empowered to call them on it. Their fear of not being believed, or not seriously listened to, has in a collective and astonishing roar been lifted.
Personally I didn't realize how intimidating and burdensome that fear must have been (and still is for so many) for such egregious behavior to go unreported for so long.
And in that, I know I’ve been susceptible to a rationale that says: if something like this is going on it will get reported -- especially in progressive organizations such as the NYT, CBS, or NPR. As such ... if there are no reports, well then likely nothing inappropriate (or at least too inappropriate) is going on.
But clearly many people have not felt safe coming forth, even in these seemingly progressive organizations. Even in organizations where many of the senior executives are women. And then of course add in the practice of financial settlements with non-disclosure agreements attached, and all up the under-reporting of this trauma must be immense.
And so yes, as I man, I need to step back, listen, learn, and hopefully get more of a clue.
Ms. Tamblyn, the floor is rightful yours.
8
The Hollywood casting couch has a long history.
Given that many actresses who refused directors' and producers' unwanted attentions never made another movie, that is, "never work[ed] in this business again," it could be that the men who have made women's lives miserable should not work again either.
But it's funny how all the so-called "liberal" broadcasters, producers, and politicians are rushing all over themselves to apologize, to quit, to be fired without putting up a fight -- while conservative radio hosts, businessmen, and politicians are stonewalling, denying accusations, accusing their accusers of lying, and in general sticking to their highly paid and powerful positions.
What's happening is that liberals are clearing out and leaving the coast clear for reactionaries.
I believe most of the women. Given human nature, some might be jumping onto wagons.
What I do not believe is that conservative shock-jocks have never manhandled their secretaries, and I wonder where those accusers are.
What I cannot believe is that Trump supporters could have heard the Access Hollywood tape, heard Trump's apology, and now believe his assertion that the tape is a forgery.
5
It bears reminding what is the “punishment” for these men so far? They aren’t going to jail. Their possessions aren’t being seized. No, their punishment is NOT BEING ABLE TO MAKE MOVIES (or TV shows or whatever).
This is the fate of most people with Hollywood dreams, and for many, it isn’t even because of any crime they did but rather because they’re not white men so are excluded from a social network with a deplorable lack of diversity.
Given this context I have no sympathy for Louis CK regarding his “punishment”.
8
I am a man and couldn't agree more with this article. This desire for immediate "redemption" sounds a lot like the result of a guilty conscience -- a last-ditch effort by abusive men scrambling to get away with their repugnant behavior and avoid rightful punishment. Compared to other forms of abuse, sexual abuse is particularly heinous as it strikes right at the heart of the man-woman relationship, which should always be one of respect and, in the case of romantic relationships, one of trusting love. One only hopes that the fall of powerful abusive men will continue in other spheres of society, not only the media industry, and will trickle down to the abusive John Does of the world. Of course, the greater problem (which is not addressed in this article, and of which those current events are only a symptom) is moral relativism and the pervasiveness of sexual immorality in Western culture. Sexual abuse is on a continuum that starts with the objectification of women in the media. (NYT, why not write on this topic also if you desire real, lasting change towards gender equality?) Sexual abuse will never stop until there is a profound, personal conversion in the hearts of men and a rejection of sexual immorality as a whole.
123
"Pervasiveness of sexual immorality" sounds dangerously close to blaming the wanton women here. This isn't the fault of women, nor the fault of the media either for 'objectifying'. Women have agency and freedom, and the media delivers what (ultimately) we want. No - the problem here is not a troubled over-sexed society, the problem is boorish perps who think boundaries don't apply to them.
4
Thank you so much for your articulate, sensitive and spot-on assessment. I agree with you 100%.
"the pervasiveness of sexual immorality in Western culture."??!!
How many times in the past year have we read news stories about gang rapes of women in non-Western countries? How many times have we gasped at the stunning immorality of the way women are treated as a matter of course in many non-Western countries? The West is no different from the rest of the world except perhaps in the form of assault on women. Methinks you do not have a clue as to what women are forced to endure. You didn't have to tell us you are a man because your writing reveals your bias.
3
Thank you for a wonderful essay. Unfortunately, it only took three years for Mel Gibson to be back on the big screen after his *recorded* misogynistic, racist and antisemitic rant at his girlfriend. So, subtract production and post prod timing and he was probably signing a contract about a year a a half ago. Daddy's He's in the number one movie in America in a role that could have been played by countless other actors. I'm disgusted.
5
Excuse me!! "I'll role my eyes." I know editorial standards aren't what they used to be but this is ridiculous!
7
Guns, porn, speed, money, preaching; We're talking about male security here. To give all that up is to struggle against instinct - our animal selves. Redemption indeed. First we need to recognize the size and source of the problem. I suggest heeding what Robert Sapolski has to say as a good starting place.
2
"Throughout history..."
3
I dislike that the author ,and others, lump Garrison Keillor in so reflexively. From what I understand, he had never been accused of sexual misconduct in the 20 years he had worked for Minnesota Radio. And the present accusation does not appear so grave, even if true.
But finally, have there been no happy women? Have all women lived "lives of quiet desperation" and fear? Have the actions of men been generally so onerous toward most women that the lives of those women have been unalterably damaged? Much of the writing on the issue of sexual "misconduct" has tended to conflate many actions. Does "sexual assault", then mean rape? While all sexual aggression might be unacceptable, it is not all equivalent to rape. While a hand on the rear might in many cases be a misplaced hand, it is not always the case. Sometimes, it might be a jocular, affectionate gesture. Have many women's lives been harmed by what might have been intended to be a playful, kidding attempt at camaraderie?
There is indeed sexual misconduct, and discrimination in the workplace, which I think most important, which have seriously harmed many women. But I do not think all women, and I do believe that there is a gamut of male actions which should be evaluated
1
What about toxic femininity. To believe that women have not played a significant role in the balance of power is a repudiation of women. Please try to remember that 53% of white women voted for the predator in chief.
We in the US still abide by a set of rules by which punishment is the key concept; not rehabilitation. Not learning. See also what has been done to felons in the judicial system. Marked forever with a big red F; making reentry into society nearly impossible.
Women fail to acknowledge their responsibility in the evolution of society. It is all about power and it has only been since the availability of birth control that men and women have found themselves competing directly in any significant numbers.
2
Look. The thing is, if anyone wants to know which gender the times likes better, and thinks needs constant protection, one need only to look at stories like these... women. The other gender (men) is only gender that needs to worry about losing their job for acting on their natural impulses. Should we restrain our natural impulses? Absolutely. Please don't misunderstand me and call me a misogynist just for disagreeing. If anything, that betrays your ignorance, not mine. But it is not a small point to say that only one gender NEEDs to worry about their impulses AND the law AND losing one's job. Women don't have these LIFE ENDING concerns. Personally I try to ignore women and not look at them at work for these very reasons. In my view I am 100% positive that in most daily interactions between the sexes, men are now way more afraid of women and what they might do or say that can easily affect the trajectory of the rest of the man's life! No man in his right mind ever complained when a woman harassed him. Therefore, women do not have this cognitive dissonance that is rattling in many sexual men's heads. Not only do the laws favor women, but this article, and the general tenor of the NYTimes favor women as needing protection, and men who act on impulse as needing punishment. Women claim to be the sympathetic ones, but it has been my observation that very few seem to sympathize with this aspect of male sexuality. Just look at mama bear to cub-threat compassion,vicious
2
The women of #metoo have fallen into the trap. The trap being act as pig headed as the men you wish to avenge.
If women lose the capacity to see clearly, remain balanced and fair, and see through the cloud of their rage , they win.
But this take no prisoners, all men now get what they deserve attitude is lowering the bar to exactly the thing women profess to detest. An opportunity to actually prove some superiority is being missed.
5
This subset of women argue not just that all men get what they deserve but that all men deserve the same punishment no matter what the offense. The man who stares at your chest is a creep and should stop but is he a rapist? It's a bit like the Republican drug war with their minimum mandatory sentencing that has devastated the lives of countless families. We all know that's wrong, right?
Great article. Articulated so well how men's sense of entitlement is a deep well that has no bottom, no shame. It's not just that her male friend wants redemption, it's that he felt redemption was an entitlement Now.... And getting it Now means stopping, silencing women who have yet to come forward. You don't get a millennia of menacing, attacking, assaulting women and then two months later, you all get redeemed. Sit for a nanosecond and consider female reality. Then consider it again. And again.
4
“Yes, we can and we will. Choosing consequences doesn’t belong to you anymore.”
Off with their heads!
4
Nobody deserves to be abused, raped, or attacked, especially not in a sexual manner. Certainly Ms. Tamblyn did not in the horrid episode with a former boyfriend she bravely described awhile back. Yes, he's a pig and he's at fault. But he was a pig before and during their relationship, well-known as a strutting, cocky alpha male who was very physical with women. He simply had not attacked her yet.
As long as these guys continue to rule the roost, the women who enable them and even find this kind of appeal hot are in some small way making the transaction work.
3
I believe in redemption, but I think we need to understand that apology doesn't equal redemption. True empathy with the human being(s) one has hurt--ACTUALLY understanding the situation from their viewpoint, as opposed to miming understanding through the use of woke terminology--is a much lengthier process. And not feasible for many. But just because some folks could never bear the weight of that emotional lifting, doesn't mean NONE of them can. In other words, some people can come back from a grope. Some can't. And instead of mourning the loss of such great talent, such a brilliant mind--take heart in the knowledge that there and MANY brilliant people out there, a great deal of whom know not to take their pants off at work.
4
You assume all men are louts but there are many of us who have never harassed any woman in any way...this is,in part, one of the unintended consequences of sex as entertainment and no personal commitment in a "hookup" that many of you celebrated...congratulations!
8
Seems like we men are going to be the ones wearing the scarlet letter. That karma thing is tough.
2
Being a bully, and using coercion is wrong but the discussion of sexual predation needs to be expanded. We live in a society that is torn between what we say is right and how we act. The full conversation would need to include the use of sex as a marketing tool, as well as the meaning of pimps, prostitutes, groupies and johns. This is not just about a few men being abusive, it is about a malfunctioning societal system. It is about lust and power. We need a bigger discussion.
7
All discussions need to start small. Sometimes they are allowed to grow. I think we allow this to grow awhile. But that doesn't mean we should NOT have a larger discussion. We can do more than 1 thing at a time. We need to do more than 1 thing at a time. Let both discussions occur. We need them both.
1
Your previous article had lead me to believe you to be more mature and thoughtful. This is not a new rule, it is you being immature, irrational and abusive with your new found "power". Let's hope its just the venting of unprocessed anger because nearly every thing you are justifyng here, is unambiguously wrong.
Two wrongs do not make a right no matter how good it feels to you. It is in exactly such times when one must be MOST concerned about the fairness and application of justice and presumed innocence because it is in exactly such emotionally charged instances that the system was designed for.
Redemption is something that will happen or not, there is no need to discuss it at all. What it seems the topic raised for you is the desire to discuss punishment and your desire that humiliation be a large part of that punishment.
3
Total misreading of the nuance. Disparaging maturity is a coward's way out, by trying to deflect.
3
Ms. Tamblyn, you're right. As a guy, a father of boys and a daughter, feeling stupid about my naiveté at how widespread this abuse is, I liken pleas for instant redemption with the phony calls not to "politicize" victims' grief after every mass shooting with debate on gun control. I'm shocked, disgusted, but say keep throwing the bums out and let women keep coming forward. If abusers ever do any good with what's left with their lives, they can seek redemption then-- from whoever they call God. Not from society, not this guy, who would be happy to never see or hear from these animals ever again.
5
Sounds about right to me.
I am not ready for the redemption of those who sexually assault, whether they are Weinstein and Lauer or the dozens of female middle school teachers who are in the news for sexually abusing teenaged boys. To insist that "men" need to be redeemed is vile and sexist.
Dozens of female middle school teachers? These cases are extremely rare -- so rare that they make national news when they occur.
4
Dozens? Overreaching here without mentioning the thousands of male teachers who do this as well. False equivalency!
4
Yet they are too common. Studies have shown this.
Here is the flawed logic among people who worry that men will be falsely accused, or overly punished: They *never* say that the women whose careers were destroyed by the men who assaulted them should get their careers back. They express no such hand-wringing, worry, or sense of injustice for them. Please note the number of women who left journalism after working on the Charlie Rose show, or the women whose phones stopped ringing after H. Weinstein assaulted them.
27
Well Amber, your article was generally pretty good – I can always do without the sort of absolutism you demand (all men – all women). You may however have rushed to print; as I am writing this the Democratic Party leader of the US House of Representatives is calling for an African American member of Congress to resign over a 15 year old sexual matter. There has never been a more bullet proof set up of credentials in history, African American Democrat, one of the founders of the Congressional Black Caucus, over 50 years in Congress, largely minority constituency an Icon! All down the tubes. Who would have guessed two weeks ago that anything more than a momentary fain of embarrassment would have arisen out of the disclosures about John Conyers. Amber, your wish may be at hand.
2
The count for Conyer is up to 5, I believe, and as recently as the 2000s. No such 15 year old allegations are needed here.
While lewd behaviour, sexual harassment, rape are detestable, and those that commit these crimes (I.e. Crosby, Trump, Weinstein, etc) deserve to disappear, its discouraging to see this 'kill 'me all, let God sort it out' attitude that seems to be developing. Is a vulgar joke in the staff room grounds for dismissal? What about asking for a date after being rejected once? A pat on the back? A quick hug at Christmas? A comment about appearance? Where's the line? Is there a grey area or is it simply time to fire any man who's shown any interest in a woman at work?
Has yet a sexual harassing man come forward confessed and apologized Before being accused? Or, have they all waited to be called out before make the long overdue apology?
And who is doing the firing? Co-conspiritors and aiders and abettors? Difficult to think of redemption in this environment.
How do they all plan to make it right?
1
Interesting article, but one small point: Al Franken didn't "grab" anybody. He grotesquely pantomimed an unacceptable action, which isn't exactly a good thing to do, but he didn't touch Ms Wheeden.
6
I guess you missed the part where he kissed her and stuck his tongue in her mouth. NOW, what do you think?
3
I really don't care. He thought making a woman uncomfortable was funny, and encouraged others to think a woman's discomfort was funny. That's enough for me to want him to cede the floor.
3
My favorite part of her story is where she, "reluctantly consented," to the rehearsal. Because that really clarified things.
2
I'm disgusted by the whinings from Weinstein, and Moore. I can't understand the sexual stimulation men experience -- apparently often -- once they gain the office suite on the penthouse floor because that stack of papers to be signed makes them want, want, want. But we're in the grip of these stories and Franken becomes Frankenstein too easily. Let's face it; as with religion, sexual harassment has become political. Will Roy Moore lose the election in Alabama because he's a pedophile, or win it because he's a pedophile? And why must Franken and Keillor lose their jobs over what seem like minor events, even innocent, events?
4
We are finding out that 1 incident leads to another, and another. There is a certain critical mass that is achieved that indicates that none of this is innocent.
Never heard the word "calendar" mentioned during sermons, philosophical discussions, or Jesus, God, Buddha babble regarding redemption. You have some wiggle room with Jesus who is a man-god, and you know how the man part of anything poisons all of everything, right?
Men who have destroyed the careers of countless women believe that their own careers should be revived? No. And they need to pay reparations to women who they have harmed.
8
When society changes, the people who are the ones having to change are the ones who are going to suffer. They won't be able to live the way they have lived
and that's pretty much it. We will have to just be sorry for the losers both then and now. I don't really know how else the change can happen. If the men who threatened the future of women if the women didn't allow their sexual behavior, their own futures will now be threatened. 'Karma' I guess you could call it.
2
I'm a guy. Not guilty of ever harassing or abusing women. During my work & academic career, however, I've had numerous co-workers, students, subordinate women attempt to seduce me. Some even offering sexual favors in my office. I've been on business trips where women have invited me to their hotel room to chat -- actually not to chat but for fun.
I can count at least 15 instances where this has unambiguously happened and more where circumstances were odd. Women have come into my office and said I look like an actor or talked about kinky sex men have suggested. I've been in women's offices where they closed their door and sat way too close. I don't feel violated although some situations made me uncomfortable. It's not easy to manage/work with someone you've turned down.
In many years in corp America I've seen as Jerry Lee Lewis said, a whole lotta shakin' going on -- all consensual. I've known women who slept with the boss or a higher ranking male -- and have seen over and over again women using their sexual charms for professional advantage -- from flirting to sex tinged banter to... well...
So sure there are male harassers (although I've only known one guy who I would consider likely) but in the workplace there are lots of male and female hormones at play. Lot's of people thrown together hours at a time. And sometimes forbidden fruit is awfully appealing. So let's not pretend women are sitting around the office with nothing but work on their minds.
20
Unfortunately, the twitter warriors don't want to hear this. It goes against their narrative....
1
I don't think that's the issue. It's the case in which men — or women — are harassing, violating, assaulting another.
2
Of course, like many men, I looked back at my past. And I discovered one woman professor who suggested sex (refused with a lower grade) and one woman producer who demanded sex (accepted).
The way to determine whether appropriate justice is being done is to replace one group with another. If you replaced the noun 'men' with the noun 'African-American' or 'Muslim' would this piece seem to paint with too broad a brush?
7
I think you've got this backwards. Men have had the advantage all these years. How could we replace "men" with African American or Muslim and say this has moral equivalency?'
1
What is missing in this day of reckoning is serious conversation about the role pornography plays in demeaning woman and promoting the idea that they enjoy coercive behaviour from men. When boys are being introduced to woman in this setting (through easy access on the web) I can only fear the consequences for woman later in life. I am not saying porn is responsible for their behaviour. But why do we tolerate entertainment that actually involves woman being abused for the viewing pleasure of men. Please hold these abusers accountable too.
And to those that claim the woman in these clips are fine with being treated that way, is that not how so many men justify the harassment and abuse of woman in real life. Lets stand against all forms of sexual harassment especially the kind that is marketed as entertainment itself .
6
All this "I need some time to heal and reflect stuff". BulI. I need some time to let this die down so I can put some spin on it. Most of these guys are rich and will never need to work again. Some are old and don't need to work. They have lost their legacies but hey, they still got money. Out here in the real world men are still getting away with it. Keep fighting sisters.
8
What kind of bizarre gestalt of reality has this become? Not ready for the redemption of men? Are women capable of parthenogenesis yet? The actions of the many are not the actions of all. If one man can understand this, then why is it seemingly so difficult for the privileged, wealthy, and...oh, yeah.
6
“Yes, we can and we will [lump Al Franken with Harvey Weinstein]. Choosing consequences doesn’t belong to you anymore.”
This kind of broad-brush stroke and lack of discernment is exactly the kind of thinking that turns men like me, who are normally strong allies of women and of the #metoo movement, into something less, something more cautious, someone more skeptical.
I wonder if we're turning the corner from healthy accountability to some something darker, something more like blanket retribution the Teen Vogue editor Emily Lindin tweeted, "If some innocent men’s reputations have to take a hit in the process of undoing the patriarchy, that is a price I am absolutely willing to pay."
21
Linden was absolutely right. Women have suffered unlimited abuse for centuries. For there to be a balance, men need to feel retribution in a much shorter time.
Would you also then agree that all capitalists need to feel retribution for the excesses of some?
5
At this point, that may be necessary.
Ms Tamblyn, please discuss the question of redemption of abusive men, and not the redemption of all men. Don't lump the majority of men who treat women respectfully in with the abusers!
4
The author's point it twofold. One, there must be zero tolerance. Two, there must be severe punishment i.e. disappear. Could not agree more.
Since the 1990's companies have trained employees on what sexual harassment is and is not. There is no excuse to not know and, trust me, each of these individuals knew their acts were sexual harassment or worse (a.k.a. Harvey the rapist). Zero tolerance must be the standard and severe consequences must follow.
Now, let's talk about the $17 million of taxpayer money Congress has paid out to settle sexual harassment claims. Cannot wait to see the list of congressMEN.
6
I see very little "masculinity" , toxic or otherwise is these acts being uncovered. What I see is a pattern of behavior, bordering on perversity, that is about exercising a kind of sick power trip on women who are trying to achieve their professional dreams and run into a male dominated system. A real masculine man respects and loves women, who are fascinating and amazing and come in an incredible variety.
1
I hope to God this changes the culture for the better, but I must warn you, until the election of Trump I was under the impression that America had made great strides in racial equality, female empowerment and multiculturalism. Now I know that racism, misogyny and xenophobia were just hiding under a rock until the right leadership made it OK to hate, openly, again.
8
We also need for women not just to identify unacceptable behavior in the current (and about-to-be-past) generation of men, but to actively undertake the raising of boys to a different standard for interacting with girls.
I was deeply dismayed when I read about the mothers who formed a group in defense of their college-student-cum-rapist sons.
5
I find it baffling the ease with which an entire gender is being equated with the behavior of some. To get a sense of how unhelpful this is, just replace the word "men" with "muslims" (or any other entire group, after a number of their members committed a crime) and re-read this article.
19
To paraphrase Iggy and the Stooges: "We've got our TV eyes on you" (YouTube it...it's a catchy song.) Meaning: there is no going back. This revolution *has* been televised, and witnessed, and recorded, and should linger in our memory banks for a very long time. It's up to US to not allow the comeback tours, the facile mea culpas, the parsing of actions with "yeah, but...." There is no "yeah, but" when it comes to foisting one's privates on another human who doesn't want to engage with them. There is no "yeah, but" regarding levels of acceptability for offensive behavior. In some of the apologist articles sprouting with depressing inevitability the word "hysteria" isn't there but is lurking just behind the corner. We need to make sure that it doesn't appear on our watch. We've been there, and we're not going back.
4
Replace "toxic masculinity" with "toxic power," because abuse of power should be recognized as the chief dynamic here. Removing all the Y chromosomes from positions of leadership won't make this problem go away. Anyone who has been conscious in the past 20 years has seen the rise of female teachers abusing students, and many men can tell tales of sexual abuse at the hands of babysitters and even female bosses. The latter are rarer only because female bosses themselves have traditionally been the exception, but replacing all the men with women won't magically solve the problem.
4
Russ Tambyn's daughter makes some interesting points but Hollywood has always been and will probably always be run by men. This sexual harassment hysteria can't last forever - just like China's Cultural Revolution it will eventually consume itself.
It's kind of interesting to watch America eat itself alive.
9
All I can say is ladies don’t put women on some pedestal because pay back is always hard and swift. If you think women are not harassers, think again. This gay man is about to start siding with the men on this issue since many women are now thinking of themselves as infallible. Go ahead split the Democrats in two. See how many women get elected without some men on their side. Stop the bullying, it is not OK.
6
Don’t call us “Ladies” - it is condescending.
4
So far we've ignored the reason that men are sexually aggressive. Men are genetically "programmed" to behave the way we do. Reproduction is our second-highest priority after personal survival. So our social behavior is always going to conflict with our genetically-designed behavior.
2
Actually, passing on your genes is probably your highest priority as an organism. In a technical sense, you're really only surviving to pass on your genes. Once that has happened, survival is second. Furthermore, it's, technically speaking, it's also a woman's priority to pass on her genes, so I don't think you really have a point there. Furthermore, there are tons of men who, like you, have the same biological priority, but they're not aggressive in the same way towards women. Something, something.....men and women are more than just the sum of their parts.
3
"So our social behavior is always going to conflict with our genetically-designed behavior.
Well, Robert, while I agree with you up to a certain point, it's also true that lots of men do not act on their "genetically-designed behavior." They were taught, and understand the benefits, of a modicum of self-control. It's certainly true in my family.
Some men, of course, are real barn cats -- that is, they have a series of girlfriends and are capable of injuring or killing the offspring by prior boyfriends of estranged husbands. You read about such things in newspapers quite a lot -- current boyfriend convicted of killing girlfriend's child. But we don't excuse such behavior ("Oh, it's his hormones; you know, he's like a barn cat"); we arrest the malefactor and try him for murder.
3
If men cannot control their sexual urges, then they should not be allowed in the workplace, and they certainly should not be in government.
5
If I'm talking to you at a bar, and I gently touch your waist in a flirtatious way to try to bulid a connection and gauge interest, and if you didn't want me to do that, is that sexual assault?
I think some men are worried this goes too far, and men will have to live in fear of doing seemingly acceptable things in world where we all want to find love. How do men know what's ok, and what isn't ok?
2
Ask before touching. Period.
6
The viciousness with which ALL men are attacked and threatened for the improper acts of SOME men is not good. It is not justice. It is an irrational, hormonal witch hunt. As someone who has always treated women with respect I feel offended and abused. Women have become my enemies, and I will treat them from now on as such.
This tarring of all men is simply way off base.
First - we're talking about men *in positions of power* who abuse that power (if, in the case of Garrison Keillor, quite possibly innocently). Most men aren't in such a position.
Second - I don't buy for a moment that all or even most men are like this.
So anyone who starts crusading against Men really needs to think more than twice.
13
Most men are the dominant halves of this strangely obfuscated abuse of power. To make a gross generalization, women are born to create and nurture, while men are born to respect where they came from (or not, apparently) and to protect all of their human brothers and sisters. Clearly the species made a wrong turn somewhere.
I agree.
Amber Tamblyn used her position of power to get her opinion posted in the NY Times Op-Ed section, but I guess she's not going to launch a crusade against that, is she ?
7
I don't think we know how to offer redemption in this society. This is the same society that has 3-strikes laws and relegates former inmates to the status of second-class citizens. In fact, we've formalized a way to never offer redemption even to those who have actually paid the price and atoned. I was trying to imagine what post-redemption Louis CK would look like, and I just can't picture it because it's not part of our cultural fabric in any meaningful way, or at least post-atonement redemption isn't. Furthermore, the average bar for decency towards women, in our society, has existed at this depraved level for so long. It was accepted and even joked about. Sexual harassment and assault allegations were never taken seriously. If, as a society, we don't have the moral aptitude on average to condemn this type of behavior by not participating in it, how can we isolate these men and condemn only them? There were many enablers and participants along the way, and many more men (and women) in some way have contributed to this problem than just those being publicly outed.
5
Men like CK and Lauer aren't being sent to prison or being divested of their wealth and assets. They're being fired and their projects are being cancelled because the value of their brand has been utterly destroyed through their own actions. There is a world of difference between the preponderance of evidence needed to convict in criminal court, and a sensible doubt in the character of any man who is the target of allegations of sexual harassment. Some men's power and value depends on publicly projecting being worthy of trust--and that's why we're seeing this happen in politics and the media first.
9
Good point - their value is the value of their 'brand' - they are public figures - and if that has been destroyed then so has their ability to make 25million$ per year
A preponderance of evidence is the standard burden of proof in civil court. And that's precisely why we must proceed with caution in our haste to create a leper colony.
1
All very beautiful thoughts, but you miss the key dilemma of what exactly is the line in "the sand"? There's now a swarm of vindictive twitter locusts for whom no amount of contrition or atonement will ever cross one back over the line. To you and your revolutionaries, stop reducing these complex issues to moral black and whites that don't exist outside of puritanical dogmas and soap box speeches
7
Hollywood, home of the casting couch. What did you expect?
The real world isn't like this.
1
It happens in mundane workplaces as well. And in hotels, and restaurants, and midwest offices. It's not just Hollywood.
3
"Redemption must be preceded by atonement. It is earned, not offered. If you want amends, you have to make them." Best line in the entire essay.
8
If redemption is earned, then it cannot be given. Meaningful contrition matters, but forgiveness is done for the self above all else.
I don't feel sorry for these men losing their jobs. I feel sorry for the woman who lost her job because she objected to Charlie Rose's harassment and spoke about it to someone in hopes of getting him to back off, at which point he fired her. Or I feel sorry for Gretchen Carlson, or rather the Gretchen Carlson that existed before she did the right thing and sued -- at which point one could only admire her for standing up to these bullies. Why are these men losing their jobs? Fifty percent of "the market" is women. A good proportion of the most talented people in business are women. Businesses suddenly remembered that. If you harass, or get a reputation for it, you damage your employer's brand. You cut into profits. If a man is falsely accused, he should certainly take it to a court of law, and good luck to him, if he is truly innocent.
4
Men are not the only ones who have serious concerns about where this "movement" is going. Nearly every woman I know - all progressive and feminist-leaning - is starting to get uncomfortable.
The key contradiction is this: Progressives have long defended due process, compassion for the victims, but merciful treatment of perpetrators. We have always acknowledged that all people are individual and all crimes are individual and justice should be both compassionate and individual. Yet much of the rhetoric of this movement now appears to violate all of these principles. "Believe the accuser" is dangerously close to presuming guilt. "All harassment/abuse/rape is of a piece" means all crimes must be equal, and apparently, all deserve the maximum sentence. Rose McGowan's latest tweet said it all for me: "If i seem merciless, it's because I am. Mercy is for the deserving, not the perpetrator."
Actually, mercy is indeed for the perpetrator. And I find nothing remotely appealing in someone proclaiming that she is merciless.
For myself, I will never bend my own progressive values to jump on the latest bandwagon.
26
Sending someone like Matt Lauer or Harvey Weinstein into early retirement with tens (hundreds?) of millions of dollars is pretty darn merciful.
3
This is such a wonderfully articulated comment and is my exact same sentiment and experience. Amber Tamblyn and these other self-righteous progressives are terrifyingly binary in their vision of justice. I'd love to ask her how she would feel is someone fired her for something she did in her personal life. No one would like that, would they? The art must be separated from the artist...vote with your wallet if you must express displeasure.
1
There are a whole lot more victims here who will never come forward and will never be named. They are all the women who gave up and quit rather than spend another moment in a toxic work culture. They are all the women who could have had fantastic careers at the Today show or the Charlie Rose show or the Louis C.K. show or in a Weinstein movie, but instead they left to protect themselves. They are all the women whose faces we will not see on television, whose lines will not be read by actors, whose journalism will not break new ground.
I was in a toxic work environment and I left. Now I have a career where my humanity is respected, while the career I left continues to be heavily male-dominated.
8
Overwrought prose, but Tamblyn's points are valid.
It's hard to understand why anyone would want to work with or enable these gropers and grabbers, these bullies.
They've preyed on women who seemed to lack the power to object.
Like all bullies, they whine once they're caught.
These stories are also about the cowardice of the multitude of producers and assistants and corp. executives who didn't listen, didn't see, didn't care.
1
Yes, great article. But meaningful change for me would be an end to to the acceptance of misogynistic pornography online. It's a poison that infects cultures all over the world. It warps young minds into thinking that is normal sex. Pornography is so pervasive that late night comedians feel fine about making easy, accepting jokes about it. Children are watching women be used like things online. Stop making this obscenity so accessible to them. I know pornography will always be available to the creeps; but let's try to keep it away from innocent children. Let's drive it back into the swamp where it belongs.
5
Disappearance is a start, but it is not nearly enough, at least in the worst cases. Those people need to face the criminal justice system for serious crimes and be jailed if convicted, and the companies that enabled or negligently overlooked their behavior should at least face the prospect of civil liability, but perhaps also criminal charges depending on the circumstances. Whoever signed off on installing that lock in Lauer’s office is an accomplice just like the getaway driver is in a bank robbery.
If the worst offenders aren’t imprisoned, then their “banishment” would likely just displace these predators into lower income communities—the same way pedophile priests were bounced around from place to place.
2
I agree that redemption for the likes of most is a premature conversation. It’s worse than that.
It's easy to misinterpret these male-only online refuges. The vast, vast majority of men never approach any pinnacle of power that a Matt Lauer, Charlie Rose or Harvey Weinstein had.
We agree, don't we, that the worst abuses are about power, not sex.
Yet, as a man, I feel a reflected sense of indictment here, even though I never put up with this sort of thing and fired people who did. Whatever minor power I achieved was always directed toward getting the most value and developing a competitive edge for any organization I worked for.
Mostly this has left me feeling stupid. I long believed that prejudice would perish not for any moral or ethical reasons but for purely practical ones. Prejudice if not fact-based. An organization’s performance is. This is capitalism, right?
So, while I am nothing remotely akin to a victim here, these past few weeks have shaken my confidence in my own judgment and intelligence, compassion and empathy, in ways nothing else has.
Discussing redemption for truly twisted offenders strikes me as a yearning to regain a sense of normalcy that’s both understandable and wholly misguided.
4
Thank you.
Women fear harassment/assault and men fear false accusations. When men are in power women are presumed guilty of lying because that makes men feel safer.
The fact that there are a relatively small handful of false accusers has traditionally been blown way out of proportion. If an insurance company stopped paying for any insureds' fire damage because another insured committed arson for insurance fraud, everyone would recognize that as unacceptable. But as long as men are in power, all women are presumed guilty of lying about sexual harassment and assault.
17
Amber Tamblyn and the rest of Hollywood actresses should definately keep on course to change Hollywood culture. However for the non-hollywood folks, we have a tax bill being rammed through Congress, health care being destroyed, and a "president" still in office breaking laws and endangering all. Feminists argue that the public can focus on more than one issue,but with only Democrats being removed from office without due trial, fighting the GOP/impeaching Trump/saving the SCOTUS, has become almost impossible.
8
Men do not "need" to be redeemed. They need to be brought "to heel". And suddenly, the entire female work force feels the same way all at the same time. There is a simple and easy solution: make the CASH penalties for the harassment way too expensive for individuals and companies to bear. The harassment will soon disappear........
6
I agree that we are a LOOOOOOONG way from that stage called "redemption."
Step #1 is to LISTEN to women and assume that they are credible instead of our de facto response of defending the male. This moment is a great step forward for our society, because we are actively engaged in that listening step.
Next, we must commit to educating ourselves about how we ended up here, and how we each daily contribute to keeping these norms in place.
Sadly, most men (and some women) have absolutely NO CLUE about the degree of degradation women tolerate ON A DAILY BASIS in every sphere of their lives.
Women's bodies are the site upon which gendered power relations are daily reasserted. We still judge/value women primarily on their appearance and men primarily on their accomplishments. Those faulty gendered perspectives must end. That is why we all need to educate ourselves about how we learn these views--how gender socialization works.
Many women (and a few men) have spent decades studying and explaining how women and men continue to adopt these faulty gendered norms. Their work can be found in the largely-maligned scholarly field of women's studies.
Even without extensive study, we can create change right where we are by making each of our human relations about RESPECT, not about POWER. That is when we will know we are truly advancing as a human species.
10
Some of the writers responding to this article seem to think the only men engaging in abusive behavior are rich, powerful and old. I can tell you from ample personal experience the men come in all ages, income levels and some are ugly and some are charming and good looking.
I have also known many very nice, considerate men who would never dream of demeaning a woman verbally or physically. But, all men still have a responsibility to examine themselves and the world of male culture. We are so inured to the way things have been for generations we don't recognize harm when it occurs.
The Garden of Eden never existed and Mother Eve was falsely accused.
9
"The only way to enforce seismic, cultural change in the way men relate to women is to draw a line deep in the sand"
Absolutely. But it's a mistake to believe women can completely shape which form the `seismic, cultural change' will take. Men are not known for nuance, after all. Why leave potentially ambiguous matters to the judgment of others?
It could well be that, after all is said and done, the new "way men relate to women" in the workplace, or the world outside it is: not at all. No one-on-one meetings between men and women, ever. No informal fraternization, ever. A colder, more distant engagement overall, with any interaction reserved for the private sphere, and even there after abundant "affirmative consent".
I'm betting on overkill, in the new way of doing things.
(Full disclosure: this is the "male half" of CDM.)
1
Assault is illegal and punishable by law subject to trial by jury. Boorish behavior is wrong but not illegal and the penalty is societal shaming and exclusion. But in both instances it's important to keep in mind that Benjamin Franklin wrote "it is better [one hundred] guilty Persons should escape than that one innocent Person should suffer". Otto von Bismarck, Pol Pot, and Vladimir Lenin are said to have held an opposing view and forwarded the theory "it's better that ten innocent men suffer than one guilty man escape;". I feel rather strongly that Franklin's view is more appropriate for the society we prefer to live in.
3
No matter how much I have liked some of these men, their careers are ending just as precipitously as their victims’. But the female victims were robbed of the chance to be as successful as these preying men. They need to understand that. The predatory men have ruined many women’s lives - and their cries now for “redemption” are too little too late. Sorry, but I shed no tears for them.
12
Totally agree. But if Trump is not included, it's not yet for real.
2
I get that women are angry--they should be. But "choosing consequences doesn’t belong to you anymore." Excuse me? Anger doesn't excuse poor judgment. All men and women really should read Ms. Weiss' column from a couple days ago--"The Limits of 'Believe All Women'". This was easily the best column written on this topic I've come across.
6
It doesn't feel good to not have any power, does it?
8
Until we have Equal Pay, all good men of corporate America should go on strike. Fire the rest of them. Replace the fired with most qualified, while leaning female and of color, and we will have a more balanced, fair, dynamic.
One part of this is that sexual impulses (other people’s at least) are icky. The more important part is about people treating other people unfairly, something all men and women have done to one extent or the other, and lumping all instances of unfair treatment together doesn’t make sense to me.
1
My wife was killed by an impaired motorist. For this offense, the young man was tried, convicted and imprisoned.
I am our raising daughters in the shadow of this tragedy. With the help of therapists, I've implore my children to face the grief and adjust to a new reality. While I recognize that this event will forever change them, they must not let it define them. They are smart and kind, as their mother was. If they were to wallow, if they were to let victimhood consume them, the young man would rob the world of their potential. While they deserve pity, they must not derive power from it. At the same time, it is their duty as Christians to forgive this young man, to provide space for him to salvage his life.
The behaviors revealed in these recent stories deserve punishment. It is heartening that women are confronting their assailants. However, the narrative presented here is that these women are one-dimensional victims. As the author of this piece "lump[s]" men together, she dehumanizes the victims. No longer are individual women victims of individual men; instead all women are victims of all men (and their culture of "toxic masculinity"). This approach ultimately silences women. When their assault is part of a greater "war," the victim never gets closure and never achieves "salvation."
In the face of our own tragedy, I have worked hard to raise my girls to become independent and capable women. They will conquer their loss and their inner strength will be their own.
190
Abe, I'm very sorry for your loss, and I believe your girls are lucky to have a father like you.
However, I do think it's important to make a distinction between forgiveness and societal redemption. When you speak of your girls moving on and not letting their anger at the young man's actions define them, that's forgiveness. But you also mentioned that the young man went to prison--and I would suggest that it would be very unfair of some stranger, or even a friend, to tell you that your family should ask the judge to release him. Prison doesn't only serve as a means of keeping dangerous people away from others they may hurt; it also is an important tool to demonstrate that society doesn't accept certain behaviors. To offer this young man societal redemption too early (a relative term, I know) would imply that his actions were not so bad, when in fact they caused irreparable harm.
To me, this article is addressing the idea of societal redemption, and saying that because we have excused and overlooked this behavior for so long, it is important for us as a society to draw a clear line now. It is for the victims of these men to forgive, if they so choose; it is society's responsibility to affirm, for all other victims out there, that the behavior was wrong and should never have happened in the first place. That will take time and a firm public stance.
13
being a victim of motor vehicle accident is not the same as being the victim of a man (or woman) who willfully disobeys your personal boundaries and violates you. in the former case, there is cause to believe your victim status truly was the result of bad luck or an accident. in the latter, you were victimized not only by the perpetrator, but also by a culture that turns a blind eye to that type of violence. just like seat belt laws were enacted to reduce motor vehicle deaths, we can reduce sexual violence by no longer tolerating the culture that allowed it in the first place. fighting against sexual violence doesn't dehumanize victims of sexual violence. what dehumanizes them is tolerating sexual violence in the first place.
8
"It is their duty as Christians to forgive" is fine for you and your family since those are your beliefs. But don't expect others who are not to be obligated to forgive. It's should be entirely the victim's choice and timeline, not yours, not mine.
9
The punishment should fit the crime. We are losing proportionality. Al Franken is not Weinstein or Cosby and doesn’t deserve the same punishment. I am not really sure what Garrison Keillor did and he’s out on the street. Did Franken and Keillor get to tell their side of the story? I can understand why women whose livelihood depended on not angering their accuser would wait years to report non consensual touching. I don’t understand why a woman who has nothing to fear in the way of retaliation from Al Franken would wait to make her, to me, unbelievable groping claim.
This has gotten out of hand and we need to stop demolishing men’s careers when reasonable people can differ on the interpretation of the act.
7
I look forward to the day when sexual power is rebalanced and women are not subjugated to men in society. But that day will not bring about any fundamental changes in sexuality or even sexual behavior. Men will still express their sexuality in ways that are fundamentally different from those of women. Men are now wondering what whether we are heading toward a new Puritanism where all male sexual expression is transgresssive. And of course the issue is that until now, woman have never been in a position to have a say at where the line gets drawn. Perhaps at least some of the behavior currently at issue will no longer be so outrageous when it is decoupled from the power dynamics currently in place. But until we get to that place, men are just going to have to buckle up and keep their hands to themselves.
2
Thank you this. We've barely started dealing with the accusations, and some people are already calling for Truth and Reconciliation. I don't care how scared you are, it's time to learn, not to shut the accusations down.
8
I will be willing to talk about redemption when I see people start coming forward and saying that they behaved in inappropriate ways on their own and not in response to accusations. These persons, did they exist, would be on the path to personal and social redemption. Being caught with your hand in the cookie jar is not the time to convincingly say I'm sorry.
12
I thought there was room for redemption. In fact I really wanted to forgive the much older therapist who led me in life-changing positive directions. After his humiliating attempts at having a sexual relationship, he gaslighted me beyond the statute of limitations. When I finally complained to the board he then created a depraved narrative, calling it an 'affair' and, even worse--taking advantage of unfortunate stereotypes surrounding those who seek therapy accused me of vandalism and stalking. The board didn't buy it and he lost his license, but the whole process was more devastating than I will ever be able to explain. Yes, I want to believe forgiveness is possible. But not, as in my case, if the abuser uses his powerful position to help unlock your dreams for a more fulfilled life, and then uses his skills and privileged access to annhilate your very soul.
5
A very powerful article. As a white man I'm being called upon to honestly look at beliefs and behavior that has been largely unexamined for most of my life. And I'm not simply talking about my relationship with women, but also my attitudes and understanding of people of color among whom I live and have worked. Sadly, those who wish to "make America great" would prefer to return to the years when grabbing women by their private parts is fine and when putting colored in their place is the natural order of things. Amazing the gifts we've been given by having a disgusting human being sitting in the Whitehouse. Perhaps real change is finally possible. Perhaps repentance which Christians tell us they believe in will actually happen. I pray for all of us that is the case. Thanks for this powerful contribution to the conversation which will no doubt continue for a long time, touching on all the ways in which we demean those we encounter along the way.
9
Note the headline: “I’m not ready for the redemption of men.” In the context of the gender wars it does not go without saying that you meant “abusive men.”
Ceding the floor? Everyone has a right to speak their piece and be heard. Everyone has a duty to listen to the viewpoints of others.
Around ‘78 a woman I like said that if men got breast cancer it would be cured by now. I’ve long regretted not challenging that. People believe that sort of thing. Let’s thoroughly study whether medical resources are misallocated by gender; or whether in ‘78 pregnancy and childbirth had been rendered much safer; men were still dropping like flies at an early age; and mortality rates later narrowed as more women and men worked, ate, smoked, and drank alike.
Let’s scientifically study at length both gendered violence and sexual assault, under both broad and narrow definitions of the terms, and respond accordingly.
In the film “My Big Fat Greek Wedding” the mother of the bride says the man is the head of the house but the woman is the neck, and she can turn the head as she likes. I happily ceded the floor while women talked about the head thing. You should listen when I have something to say about the neck thing.
2
If you were genuinely interested in knowing why women make claims about inequality in the fields you mentioned, you would have looked it up by now on your own. I recommend Google.
But in case you actually want to know & are just mortally lazy, some tips: An easy & accessible reference for studies on workplace gender inequalities is the Harvard Business Review.
Another good eye-opener is recent international data on maternal mortality. In particular, the numbers comparing US regression on maternal mortality with US progress on neonatal mortality, or comparing US maternal health outcomes with other developed countries. Our outcomes are so bad, in fact, that when researchers first crunched the numbers, they assumed there had been a mistake in the data. But when they re-checked, they found that the original results were accurate. I'll also add that most medical research has been conducted on men, and there are many areas where doctors have long been giving women ineffective treatments because it didn't occur to anyone to consider whether the results for women could possibly differ.
Finally, I would recommend reading a few of the (relatively) recent news articles discussing the phenomenon of doctors not believing women who say they're in pain (some of which were written by men who were horrified by doctors' treatment of their wives). It's terrifying.
These are just the tip of the iceberg - but reading will take you more time than writing an ill-informed comment.
3
Responding to Firasha96, I’m aware that maternal mortality is getting worse instead of better in the U.S., especially Texas. That needs to be studied and action taken right now. It’s a fair question as to whether right wing politics is contributing to the problem, whether because of inadequate public health funding generally or as a consequence of the war on organizations such as Planned Parenthood.
As to the rest, your reply is insulting but wholly uninformative on the question whether need or sexism drove allocation of medical resources at a time when maternal mortality questions seemed to have been dramatically improved while many men were still dying in their 40s or 50s of heart attacks and industrial accident and disease. My memory is men fared much worse on the mortality tables back then. When women started to work, eat, and drink more like men, and have more early heart attacks, and doctors discovered women and men presented differently on heart attacks, one hopes people started studying that right quick. I’m dubious that an easy Google search would resolve whether there was undue delay caused by sexism.
And another point... For what it's worth, from many Tibetan Buddhist perspectives there are far worse karmic consequences to acting out of revenge (which includes all forms of punishment) than karmic consequences due to acting out of Desire. Desire/greed is the engine of capitalism, and it has become the number one target of they hypocritical left. Leftists believe everyone should live with less, be miserable, etc. and then utopia will suddenly emerge, similar to all religious myths. I know women get a ton of unwanted propositioning to say the least, but I have a hard time sympathizing with it, because as a Man, we just wish to get attention from women to whom we are attracted. Also, what people wear is a form of communication regardless of whether the wearer of such things intends it or not, consciously or subconsciously. Now I await the chorus of leftists calling me a victim blamer. From my point of view, I'm just analyzing facts that are as clear as day. From my point of view, acting on desire more often than not has better consequences than acting out of revenge. And most people who act on desire only go after people who have indicated a mutual interest. The war on desire should stop. But I get it, this is about workplace culture, which sits apart in many ways from what I address here. Thank you for reading, and kindly responding. I'm guessing the responses will be tantamount to a which hunt. See how you go.
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That's interesting, Peter. I just attended an excellent talk in which the Tibetan Buddhist teacher said that at the root of all anger, hatred and greed is craving - craving that is rooted in the illusion of a separate self- an illusion which is at the heart of libertarian(extreme, laissez-faire) capitalism.
If you would like to understand this further, look up (and practice the instructions in) "The Mind Illuminated," by Culadasa, for many years a neuroscience professor, now a full time meditation teacher. Look particularly what he says about the neural networks supporting the very different modes of interacting with the world he calls 'selective attention' and "peripheral awareness."
To understand how this relates to culture at large (and to the question of the relationship of men and women, capitalism and socialism, and well, just about everything else in the world - and to top it off, to get a real understanding of what "mindfulness" is apart from the pseudo-mcmindfulness craze) look at Iain McGilchrist's "The Master and His Emissary."
You can find an excellent overview on youtube if you search "McGilchrist + Blake Society", or look at the RSA Animate video that McGilchrist made.
Then look at the front page of any newspaper, and look at it through the mode of selective attention vs peripheral awareness.
The world will never look the same.
www.remember-to-breathe.org
This is what I've been saying all along - there is right, and there is wrong, there are no shades between. These men did not ask for shades or evidence of their victims' humanity when they victimized them, and they should be given no quarter. Rule of Order must prevail. I draw no distinction between jaywalking, murder, and texting in a car - anyone suspected of any of these things should be put in jail for years as they are all lawbreakers, all of them put the rest of us at risk while they carry on their illegal behaviors. Same goes for all of these sexual aggressors. Only when the Rule of Order is instituted in totality will society be safe.
Sadly, no man really cares about this question of "redemption" for the fallen. The fallen need to get out of the way for the next generation of replacements who don't have the track record of misbehavior. These unencumbered men will be only more emboldened and empowered to take the mantle given to them. There seems to be a misplaced notion as to the implication of removing these male predators from their undeserved place in the business food chain. Redemption cuts both ways for men and women.
The only reason anyone can discuss the topic of potential redemption is that the authors of this wave of hysteria have totally failed to reckon with the thing our democracy demands most -- due process.
Without due process, redemption becomes a completely meaningless issue of fake public confession in order to obtain clemency. That's how it worked during witch trials and jewish persecutions. And the accusers will be the ones judged by history to be in the wrong.
Beware of the backlash that a country unmoored from its belief in the rule of law can visit upon anyone who fails to conform to the reigning culture.
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Thank you. I see a lot of male hand-wringing and melodramatic wondering from both men and women - "Will there be any men left?" "Where will this end?"
The reality is that the handful of men who are now facing consequences for sexual harassment represent the tiniest tip of an enormous iceberg. MILLIONS of men will never face repercussions for the sexual harassment and assault and lack of safety that every single girl and woman in this society has faced for generations, for lifetimes. Store managers, bosses of every stripe, sports "heroes," media moguls, medical professionals, clergymen, senators, mayors, policemen, prison guards, judges, presidents, construction workers, fathers, uncles, brothers by the millions have gotten away with egregious abuse for eons - and will often continue to get away with it. Maybe a few more will be brought down from time to time. Things will change a little as more women feel empowered to speak up. But this idea that we can solve the problem by pointing fingers at a few powerful men is naive.
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The consequences will be chosen by Congress and the courts, as they have until now. This "moment" has no meaningful leverage, and it will be wiped out in a backlash, as the arbitrary nature of retribution is revealed.
We once had a country that dealt with systemic social injustice rationally: by passing laws and courts enforcing them. We now have a government uniformly opposed to women's dignity and social justice. If we miraculously move beyond the current Republican-dominated era, progress will be relentlessly obstructed in the Congress and nullified by the courts.
Whether a handful of wealthy, entitled abusers regain prominence is as of much consequence to the daily life of most Americans as Taylor Swift's twitter feuds and this conversation on the sofa as important as a debate in a college dorm.
What an excellent piece by Ms. Tamblyn! It IS too soon to be looking for redemption. This eruption has only just begun and we have decades, if not centuries to catch up with. I don't believe a press release of contrition is any where near enough for any of these offenders. Women will need to regroup and decide how THEY wish to move forward in THEIR future. What we have seen and read in recent weeks is but the tip of the iceberg. We need to wait and see how much appears and how WE wish to proceed. Thank you again for an excellent piece
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When the number of men pushed out for sexual harassment equals the number of women who have left or been pushed out due to sexual harassment, we will have reached a balance point.
For men who are concerned that it is not possible to act appropriately around women, I assure them that it is. I have spent most of my life in male dominated work environments in science and law. The vast majority of men with whom I have worked have managed to figure it out. In professional settings, touch your women colleagues the same way you would touch male colleagues, e.g., shaking hands. It is perfectly reasonable to complement a woman's outfit, but not the way it makes her body look. Keep your clothes on at all times. If you are going to invite a female colleague out after work, it should not revolve around alcohol. If you are on the same business trip, meet in the lobby, not at one of your rooms. Is there anyone for whom these ways of acting are not obvious?
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Yes, Ms. Tamblyn is so right - "redemption [and trust, I would add] must be earned, not given." It is the responsibility of the offenders to do the very difficult work of discovering what that means.
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The problem is those on the receiving end of predatory behavior do not get that second chance. Opportunities are lost, and years pass. No one can give back that lost time. So, yes, I'm with you, this is not the time to commiserate over poor so-and-so's career. If this is truly a watershed moment, many more stories are to come, particularly in the industries that have thus far stayed out of the news.
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The anger inherent in this piece is both palpable and understandable.
That said, there are two dangers involved with giving free reign to this anger, remembering that you always have to be careful what you ask for because you might get it.
The first is in its ending: “Pick a side. Choose us.” Perhaps it is firing for effect, for drama. Perhaps it is only a rhetorical device. Yet it is clear that what women are asking for is inclusion, and picking sides is not conducive to inclusiveness.
The second is an age old problem. One of the byproducts of righteous anger is developing a belief that that the ends justify the means. Yes, some men need to change their toxic behavior, but we don’t need to devolve into, to echo the odious rationalization from the days of segregation, separate but equal. Nor do we need to revisit the kind of manic zeal of the French Revolution or the McCarthy hearings.
The cliche about grief, it’s a process, is appropriate here, because, while women understandably would like this change to happen yesterday, complex cultural problems like this are not easy to modify. Hearts and souls, which have been molded slowly over lifetimes, will have to be fundamentally altered, and that won’t be quick.
Though we shouldn’t be comfortable yet, a surprising amount has happened amazingly quickly.
Tamblyn asks "Why do we need to talk about the redemption of men when we are right in the middle of the salvation of women?"
My answer is that we need to always believe that human behavior can change for the better and that specific occasional behaviors (not a pattern of serious abusive or harassing behavior) do not provide a full characterization of all that a person is. It is a simple and fair concept.
I completely agree that this is a moment in US history that should represent a turning point in our culture in which those men who do not understand that harassing behavior or abuses of power related to sex are violations of human decency and should be stopped: personally, culturally, and institutionally.
I also know from history that when people rush to judgment, especially in individual cases, serious mistakes can and are made. I also know that a fixation on a goal without a firm belief and willingness to impose just punishment imposes its own form of abuse.
We can do two things at once: seek major change in the bad behavior of many men and the complicity of other people and understand that some behaviors are not as bad as others and that perhaps those people can change for the better and deserve not to be condemned for life.
Well said. Powerful piece. thank you. I agree that this is just the beginning of change, we can't stop or retrace our steps. I don't care how important, rich, or powerful abusive men think they are, if they don't understand how to respect women I won't ever miss them when they fall.
For whom are we even considering redemption? And whom have we empowered to grant such redemption? Not to paint all the high-profile, recently exposed offenders with the same brush, but let's just consider all instances of harassment and assault to be of the same magnitude for one moment.
What is the goal? it should be that all such abusive behavior ceases. Training, counseling, fines - none of these have done much to reach that goal. Let's consider, instead how to reach that goal: sacrifice those who now stand accused. In truth, there really is no road back for most of these men. Am I ever going to do other than change the channel if Matt Lauer reappears on my TV? Am I ever going to pay a nickel to see a Kevin Spacey movie or watch a TV show with him in it? Am I ever going to believe Al Franken again? Those men are done. They should remain disappeared. I believe, more than anything else, that this article makes this argument without coming right out and saying it.
Perhaps this first wave of offenders must simply be sacrificed. Heads on pikes. Bodies hanging from gibbets. Warnings to those that follow that the price for this behavior is a terrible one. Then, perhaps, real change occurs.
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This is the best piece of writing on the subject of how we deal with men who harass or assault women that I've read. It's going to be a painful and very rough ride for a lot of people, mostly men who deserve it, but also for the people who love them, and occasionally for men who perhaps are caught in the net of righteousness who end up as "collateral damage". I find it excruciating to see men of stature fall so hard, but necessary. I came of age in the '60's; the harassment and assault I experienced as a young woman changed and damaged me. It's time to make sure young women never have to endure and accept being unsafe simply because they are trying to earn a living. Thank you, Ms. Tamblyn for an excellent analysis.
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This is measured, important and beautifully expressed. Thank you.
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The rage is justified, but it must be controlled. Cultural change that is lasting needs to be forged by both men and women working together and listening to each other. Also, Ms Tamblin states that in her life, as a woman, she has known only fear and lack of security; I suspect this is hyperbole, and it is important to understand that the world indeed contains women who truly have had that experience--refugees, women in poverty, women who have suffered abuse and imprisonment. I am sceptical that it is legitimate to conflate their terror and existential fear with the concerns of the author. Proportion is all.
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A thoughtful and eloquent piece.
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Redemption must be preceded by atonement.
This is the key. Think about the types of crimes - even "victimless" crimes - that are against the law. We, as a society, don't say, "well, all you have to do is agree not to do it again. Now go on your way."
These are all crimes, some legal crimes, others "just" social crimes, with victims, and they should be treated that way.
I think the problem people have with this pogrom is that in order to fit some weird narrative of history many of the rights our ancestors fought for are being trampled in favor of political expediency. No need for redemption because nothing has been proven. Bravo for your new "power". Power used this way only leads to desperate reaction.
This "moment" is creating Trump voters faster than you can count them. Nice work.
Well said, Ms. Tamblyn, these are the "new" rules of the game. Quite simply, we can not move forward without a reckoning, and there can be no reckoning without justice. I believe the lion share of men (especially in my corner of Brooklyn) are good people that both value and cherish women and their contributions. Unfortunately, the system that we live in has neglected to move forward in that same direction. Women have been playing by an unfair playbook for millennia, it's only right to even it.
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Since young women often have to navigate sticky situations where men cross the line, here is advice about what to say I wish someone had passed on to me early in my career:
"I appreciate your interest and maybe we could learn to be friends, but there is no chance we will ever have a relationship beyond professional colleagues. I trust you are mature enough to handle that and I look forward to a productive partnership. If you have any misunderstanding on this issue, I will be happy to arrange a meeting with your boss.”
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Attention men and women who are tired of this conversation. Get back to us when a woman brags about grabbing men by the penis and gets elected President of the United States of America.
Rape, pillage, plunder. To the victor go the spoils. Those are man thoughts.
Women are not "spoils". Sex is not up for grabs because men "win" something, be it power, money or being boss.
Male behavior and mindsets must change and women will see to it. It's not about the man sitting next to you. It's about systemic behavior based on the religious premise that men are somehow superior to women.
The premise is false. Sexual suppression, intimidation, harassment and/or abuse are no longer acceptable behavior. Socially conscious women and men will no longer accept the behavior and will call it out every single time.
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Why did the Times delete both replies I made to people who replied to me? They were both on topic.
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It's the same infection that let's and otherwise smart Ms Tamblyn utter what she has here and allows people to abuse a Nazi sympathizers employers until he is fired.
That infection is an anti democratic anti Americanism virus. The tyohoid Mary of that infection is of course ronald "government is the problem and god's law rises above mans law" reagan. His middle name there is the virus itself.
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Here's what needs to be understood: When you are at work, you're there to work--not to pursue, intimidate or make sexual overtures or demands of others. Your employer is paying you to work. Period. If you've crossed the line in error of judgment or deliberately -- you need to review the sexual harassment codes and/or take training to understand why your behavior is out of line. If your supervisors are involved, more may be dictated. But if you hope to redeem yourself, your career -- a lot more is needed. If you're a rich man who's amassed a lot of power, your amends may include financial restitution. Your victims deserve more than an apology. It may be a long road to regain respect.
"Redemption must be preceded by atonement. It is earned, not offered. If you want amends, you have to make them. You have to acknowledge the line in the sand."
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Tell me, does a "sexual overture" include expressing a potential romantic interest and having the temerity of asking for a date?
Great article. Thank you for your courage. Nothing changes if nothing changes. We're on the change train and let's ride.
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How does this take “courage”? It’s an essay laying out a (vague) opinion that is neither controversial or new. The writer has not risked anything in writing this. She has not revealed anything about herself. She has not taken on the powers that be. This is not much at all, really.
I am tired of seeing the word “courage” thrown around without meaning. Please save it for people who exhibit the real thing.
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I would not be so quick to rejoice. For the vast majority of women who work at companies where men are in control of management and the board rooms the easiest solution will be to exclude women - if we don't get invites to meetings and lunches we will quickly become irrelevant. There will be false accusations and decent people will be hurt - including our spouses. The conversation I am not looking forward to is the one with my husband telling him that the best advice I can offer him is to have nothing to do with any woman because I don't want his personal and/or professional life destroyed by someone looking for their 15 minutes of fame.
This type of behavior has been going on for centuries and every working woman has at some time in her career experienced it and yes there has been plenty of training that has been done on this topic in companies over the last several decades. Maybe this is finally the watershed moment that will make a difference but I am not counting on it - one only has to take a long look at who is sitting in the White House to know we still have a long way to go.
Maybe the radical feminist were right - get rid of the men?
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I put together a list of all the powerful, wealthy women in every walk of life, every profession, business, educational institution, Forbes' list, etc. The amount of money and influence welded is staggering. Frankly, it is earth-shattering. We have only to exercise this power for good. We are 51% of the population. Rather than get rid of men, why not help build this "new power" as the author writes. Frankly, it really isn't new-it is the standard to which ethical PEOPLE have been living by for centuries. If we cannot control ourselves and teach others the psychological components of how to control sexual power then we are not humans but animals.
2
I would tend to agree. When I ran my business, "irrelevant" was the key. I wanted to discuss with my accountant how I could position and grow my business to where it would peak and be marketable at a good price. I asked if we could discuss it over a lunch, kind of a starting point. He turned white, gathered and stacked up my tax return paperwork and said he'd be in touch. He then mailed me my return and paperwork, never speaking to me again. Same for a banker, even though my mom agreed to 100% collateral and co-sign for the loan. We got the loan because one of the bank executives was a fraternity brother of my brothers and I wrote and complained to him, then sent female bankers in his place to close on the loan. When I experienced extreme sexual harassment, I just called the guy's wife. That was simple compared to the above humiliation. It is hard.
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Thank you so much for this thoughtful comment. Amber's rant makes several cogent points but it finally loses me when she states that debate is not an option. Unfortunately for all genders, in our new world of (anti)-social media debate is DEAD. You either agree or you are belittled and attacked. Women may be winning this battle but when the tables turn look out.
I completely agree that the backlash will be for men like me, that find the abhorrent behavior of these men disgusting to do our best to avoid all possibilities of being rounded up in this gender war. Of course like all wars, there will be innocent bystanders. So too Amber and her fellow soldiers best of luck and I hope you get what you want. But the powers that be (definitely not me) are planning a counter insurgency that CJN speaks about.
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Yes! thank yo Amber for this essay. I'm also not ready to talk about redemption for sexual harassers/predators now. It's too soon, and my feelings are too raw and complex. I'm very glad, though, to hear that men are talking privately about this; I hope that more men begin to speak publicly. For now, men are getting a taste of what women's lives are like, sometimes on a daily basis and throughout our lives. You never know when this will happen, and until recently, it was very hard to get anyone to take the problem seriously.
For a long time, I've hope that men would have their own revolution,as the women' movement was for many of us. For all of its faults and messiness, the women's movement helped many people in society to talk about the constraints in our lives and how that affected us on a daily basis. Now, more than ever, men need to talk about how even the "good" men have often - not always - facilitated sexual harassment and predation (women have as well). And then we can talk about redemption for those who truly repent.
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Should women be more judicious in wearing revealing/sexually attractive clothing to work? Women are aware when they are dressed to attract male attention. If we're going to have an open and frank discussion on this, should my question be off limits?
Sexual predation and sexual harassment are about power; how a woman dresses has nothing to do with it (to a certain extent, I wish that it did, because that would be an easy fix, wouldn't it?). It happens when one person has power over another. It happens to women in business suits, as well as those in "sexier" outfits.
If your question had anything to do with the problem, then no, it shouldn't be off limits; but it doesn't. There is lots of sexual harassment in countries with "traditional" values and dress and lots in professions, such as law and business, where all people must dress to a certain standard.
3
Amen sister!
It is not yet time to talk about redemption. Men have a long way to go before they grock the lifelong behaviors inflicted on girls and women, from the pinching, the pushing, the pigtail pulling, the wheedling for a kiss, the whining that an erection somehow needs to be satisfied, to outright forcible engagement, year in and year out! It may be that the most powerful and most well known men at the top of the pyramid are getting decapitated. But, from the reports, their decapitations are fully merited. It is just retribution.
Women are asking for a profound behavior change. This should be a time for men and boys to really think through their behaviors toward women and girls. And reflect on how it would feel to be treated the way they treat and have treated women and girls.
Redemption is not a passive verb; women can't redeem men. Men have to actively work on their own individual redemption. Let us hope that day comes sooner rather than later.
3
I wish your statement that these offending men should disappear were true of the President. He is getting away with it. And he is, perhaps, the worst offender. Every time a new man is "outed" I get angrier that the President seems so immune that he feels he can criticize other men for the very behaviors he has exhibited.
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Shorter: someone should take him out. I believe you will get your wish very soon. It will be a day of mass celebration, of course.
The President and R. Kelly, apparently.
I don' t think he is the worst offender, you may not like his politics but IMHO Harvey Weinstein takes the cake on this one hands down.
1
This is one of Matt Lauer's statements about his abusive behavior where he makes it all about him by leading with a denial of some of the allegations rather than simply apologizing to the women he abused.
“Some of what is being said about me is untrue or mischaracterized, but there is enough truth in these stories to make me feel embarrassed and ashamed ..."
Actions speak louder than words and perhaps he can begin making amends by taking concrete steps to pay for his misdeeds such as attending the type of classes mandated for perpetrators of domestic violence.
He could also use some of his millions to lobby for changes in the law, especially to protect the countless victims of abuse in small companies who will never attract the kind of media attention reserved for high profile public figures.
Maybe in time he can redeem himself to some extent but he and other abusers need to focus on taking concrete steps, which should be dictated by those that have been abused and the women who advocate for them, before he and other perpetrators can begin to make up for their sins.
31
"I'm not talking about banishment. I’m talking about ceding the floor. The power of celebrity and cultural approval must disappear for the time being so that all women see and believe that consequences do exist." Thank you for a good summary of the matter.
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What is “the power of celebrity and cultural approval”? That’s awfully vague. We give some people power because we want to borrow some of it for ourselves. The women sat (aghast) in front of Louis C.K. and watched him complete an act of self absorption did not get up and leave because, according to their account, they feared he would damage their careers. He was, they said, an important man in the industry. Is that real “power”? Did they have any reason to think he would blackball them if they laughed and left? I have seen no evidence that Louis C.K. acted vindictively against women who spurned him. I see him as nothing but a pitiful, disturbed man. A man who has a twisted vision of himself and of what women want.
I would have made a joke about size and walked out. That’s how you handle these things.
In contrast, Weinstein — the alleged rapist — actively took down the careers of women who didn’t submit to his assaults. He was a man to be feared. That is actual power, used in a particularly evil way. Matt Lauer and his magic door lock falls on the Weinstein side of this dichotomy, since he was known to destroy careers of those whom he disliked. Charlie Rose, of the disappearing towel trick, is over in the Louis C.K. corral of sad, little men. Shambling, hapless Garrison Keillor, on the other hand, is being for a simple miscalculation — literally, one errant hand offered in comfort, according to him. One of these things is not like the others, as the song goes.
2
Tamblyn is good at conveying exactly how feminism came to be seen as a pejorative. Second-wave Feminism was fueled by egalitarianism. This is just diet nihilism.
1
Mitsi:
If you don't have the gumption to report wrongdoing, then how will there be any consequences for you to see?
It's time for women to man up.
Ah, yes. I'm reminded of a long-ago graduate school experience in a seminar on topics that future psychologists would likely deal with in therapy practices. The subjects of the day were rape, rape crisis intervention, subsequent counseling. The professor entered the discussion with uncommon enthusiasm and quickly steered us toward the tragic consequences for men who were falsely accused and spent the bulk of the class belaboring their plight. I confronted him afterward by telling him of my anger and discomfort at never actually examining the topics we had come prepared to discuss. His claimed his justification was a desire to see rape viewed as just another crime, without stigma, causing the victim no more trauma than that of a robbery. I suspected at the time that the problem was that men have great difficulty identifying with the victim, only the perpetrator. Most non-incarcerated men don't live their lives with the fear of sexual assault being an ingrained part of their consciousness. I now know the professor was being disingenuous and his discomfort with the the subject was more personal and a piece of the fabric of his general antipathy for all things related to feminism. The sad thing is that he was a truly gifted teacher who ultimately influenced a generation of clinical psychologists---for better and for worse.
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One big takeaway here is that the amount of fear, hurt and anger it takes to be able to say something like "some innocent men may suffer but that's just the way it is" has been generations, even centuries, in the making. If women are (too) quick to call foul and (too) unwilling to let it slide, rather than judge if that is the right or wrong response, how 'bout we just reflect for a moment on how afraid and angry someone must be feeling to (over) react that way? Sort of like how a community of color might just absorb getting beaten down for a long time, but then explode and do something as irrational as riot. Or how white people might quietly live with their fear and anger for years, watching jobs disappear and their way of life being at risk, then do something as insane as voting for Trum... um, well, you know what I mean. My point is that when a person or group of people seems to be overreacting and making bad choices, there is always a reason and it may not be the obvious one. We should take a moment to step back from our own reactions and judgments to try to understand and empathize with what that reason could be.
49
My mama always told me that two wrongs don't make a right.
1
One thing I'm disheartened by is Ms. Tamblyn's assertion that many these fallen celebrities (with the exception of Weinstein) will someday make a comeback.
I don't think they should be allowed to. They've done heinous things to women FOR YEARS, so why should we ever give them special dispensation to reestablish their careers? They should find something new to do out of the public eye and far away from the megalomaniacal power trip which most of them perpetuated for decades.
They should disappear completely, forever. Maybe they can begin to work in new and rewarding jobs like envelope stuffing and telemarketing from their homes -- anything that keeps them away from women.
31
They'll reappear because the industry will want the money they bring in. Personally, l haven't watched anything by Polanski or Allen since I first heard the stories about them. I will be fine not giving my money to projects by these men too. There's plenty of great art by ethical people to avoid them with no harm to my life.
I will also avoid shows with the showrunners like Keillor and Louer.
It's harder to avoid the products of companies that rehire the businessmen, companies are so intertwined. Not sure how to proceed there.
There can't be redemption without atonement and reparations. It's not enough to say one is sorry, one has to try to right the wrong.
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When you say “reparations” what did you have in mind? A money grab? Have the guy come over and clean your house for two years? What do you mean?
1
This is a timely article and I agree 100%. It is disturbing to read so many
defensive, angry, and dismissive responses by men - and equally refreshing to read responses from some men who do understand and "get it". So many responses decry that there is a rush to judgement and many innocent men will be caught up in it. Well for many many centuries innocent women have been raped, assaulted and murdered with no measure of justice afforded to them by the patriarchal system of power the world over.
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I'm a man, and here's what I "get": you believe that injustices can be avenged not just on their perpetrators, but on any member of the same broad social class/gender as the perp, at any interval of time. Thus a woman who was assaulted fifty or a hundred years ago is granted some kind of retribution through the prosecution of *any* man in the present, whether or not he's done anything wrong. This is justice to you? This is a position you're denouncing others for NOT sharing?
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Two wrongs don't make a right. No matter how many innocent women have been victimized, making innocent men victims too is not justice, it is just wrong.
6
So — this not about justice, but rather revenge? My impression is that such an approach rarely plays out well.
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All of this identity-based chatter is creepy. Justice gets perverted by people who "think" (it's not really thinking, it's feeling) like this. Justice is about people, not sides.
79
Thank you! Great article!
45
This has just begun. The power of thugs. Will take a generation or two but it is a wonderful thing.
7
But it's not an excuse to be thuggish in return
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Yes. It's never a "wonderful thing" to ruin someone's life. It's sad and unfortunate.
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Sarah I appreciate your reply. However now that all social wars are fought on Twitter and Mass media, "thuggishness" is how it's done. Sadly, it's mostly the thuggish liberals that want the norm to be 'off with their heads' guilty or otherwise. War NEVER works because some man innocent are lost in it's path. I don't care if there is redemption for the accused as much as I feel sorry for the many innocent that will be taken down.
RIP 2017: Debate, intelligent reason.
Please don't fool yourself into thinking that Facebook and Twitter are tools of democracy. More like fascism in it's finest hour.
1
This is all so strange, this sexual harassment cause. It's "woke" for male predation of women.
Society's recent "woke" moment regarding the monstrous abuses of power toward minorities (especially blacks) has been well known to blacks for centuries - but Ferguson changed all that for whites.
Sexual abuse of women has been with us since much further down our evolutionary tree, maybe since the "fake news" and media spin out of Garden of Eden, all well known to women, forever - but Cosby, Trump, and Weinstein changed all of that for men.
Recognition of both of these awful wrongs (to be woke and "wox"?) are first steps. Dramatic and painful changes are in store - and we all know that if you want to make enemies, change something.
31
Amen, this country is founded on racism, sexism, and now fake news. I hope that these named corporations run by entitled white men start looking in the mirror and begin actively interviewing minorities for real positions in there organizations, don't brother with the usual lie that you cant find anyone. Board rooms need to diversify and not just white women but people of all hues. Begin the development of Corporate /community financial partnerships. Since Facebook gave us the nightmare we are living now in the White House Give back to the American people because serious wrongs have been inflicted on us. Nothing will change if these entitled men come back with a different name and run these corporations that pretend they don't know what is happening. Lets all stop this horror show once and for all. Politicians who are holding on no matter what their status is, should be under pressure to leave. Enough excuses and it starts at the very top. Sorry doesn't mean a thing if real change doesn't happen .
1
No one here has yet suggested applying the same standards to Donald Trump or Roy Moore. So is it okay for sexual predators to work in politics, just not the entertainment industry?
2
"Society's recent "woke" moment regarding the monstrous abuses of power toward minorities (especially blacks) has been well known to blacks for centuries - but Ferguson changed all that for whites. "
For many "whites" all that was changed during the civil rights movement when the news showed peaceful protesters attacked by law enforcement using dogs, clubs, and fire hoses. BTW, some of those protesters were white.
2
42% of women voted for trump
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Matthew, I think the statistic is 42% of women WHO VOTED voted for Trump. Which demonstrates only that Stockholm Syndrome occurs in all human experience.
More importantly what does that say about Clinton that made those 42% not vote for her? You and others blame POTUS for that but no one it seems has bothered to find out why they went that way as opposed to voting for her. I held my nose when I voted for her, it was the right thing to do but let's face it both parties gave us horrendous candidates.
1
No, I'd say over half of those simply voted against Hillary. In her generation and the one immediately following, she was never forgiven her Tammy Wynetter moment nor the comment about not being the type of mother to stay home and bake cookies. She, whether she understood it or not, had a way of making other women feel inadequate rather than inspired. Women are often our own worst enemies. She produced a happy and productive child while also pursuing a high powered career, managed a marriage to a serial philanderer without seeming to lose her self-worth, went toe-to-toe with powerful men without simpering or going girlie, got stalked on stage by a man a foot taller and a half ton heavier without breaking a sweat and they couldn't forgive her for those things so they backed the man whose sins were ones they were used to living with every day in every part of their lives. He didn't challenge them to be better than they were.
7
I hear and respect the rage.
But I am concerned about this (and some similar articles) that roughly state, "It's about time that the guilty were punished. And if a few innocent men get swept up and falsely accused, well, now you know what women have dealt with for years."
Sigh.
Whenever there's a story about the suffering of people of color, some knucklehead always pops up and says, "But white people suffer too!"
I don't want to be that guy.
This is a time to focus on women, the injustices that have befallen them for eternity, and this new glimmer of hope. Men have had their say for ages -- now it's time to listen.
But I can't help but selfishly think of the many enjoyable dates I had ages ago with intelligent, interesting women I met through online dating, and the ONE who was totally nuts. I can imagine her saying that I assaulted her, when absolutely positively nothing of the sort happened. No; not even vaguely close.
Would anyone listen to my story? Or would I just be tossed on the pile with the guilty? I respect Ms. Tamblyn and all she's been through, and I can't imagine her saying, "Let's round up the truly dangerous Muslims, and if a few innocent ones get caught up, well that's the price." or "Let's arrest men of color who are criminals, and if a few innocent ones get caught too, well, that's the way it goes."
Let's continue to celebrate this new day for women, let's punish the guilty, but a small note of caution is due along with the justifiable rage.
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Glen, I hear what you are saying about being wrongly accused, and possibly drawn into the age-old myth about men of color being sexual aggressors. There are crazy women in the world.
But redemption? That is a road that must be walked. Quietly. And not when you have just been caught out. If we use religious terms like redemption, repentance is turning around. Away. Not showing a meek cheek for a minute, in public. The apology and sorrow following abuse is part of the pattern.
Some of the "crazy" women are survivors of that pattern. We are in the Truth part of truth and reconciliation.
30
Comment #2: I assume I'm going to get lumped in with the "defensive" comments from men category, so let me offer something more practical.
I thought of myself as being as much a 'feminist" as the next woman or men back in the 70s. I also remember - Nixon was president at the time, if you recall, due to nationalist backlash (though it's only been in the last few months that pundits have finally realized that's what brought Trump in, not economic hardship).
I heard feminists like Andrea Dworkin expressing extreme views which clearly would intensify the backlash. We then got 37 years of plutocracy, to the point now we live in an oligarchy.
From a purely practical standpoint, no matter how good it feels to express rage in an extremist manner, I don't see how much good it does if it ends up even worse than now (though it's hard to imagine what would be worse than a nuclear war with North Korea - and yes, I do put an immense amount of responsibility for that war, if it occurs, on the extremists on the Left - my fellow progressives - in the 70s.
There was a moment - i don't know if one could pinpoint whether it was the late 60s or some time in the 70s, where a completely different direction might have gained the attention of "the [alleged] moral majority."
We could have have Bernie-Sanders-like leaders and by now, universal health care, education, renewable energy, peace in the middle east, etc.
Now we're on the verge of nuclear war. Think carefully, please.
11
I had a very different reaction to this--not saying either is right or wrong. While I support your call for caution, I just don't see a sentiment like "And if a few innocent men get swept up and falsely accused, well, now you know what women have dealt with for years" in Tamblyn's words. She doesn't say collateral-damage concerns are unwarranted. Swift action does not inherently mean injustice. Where you see rage, I see calm, measured righteousness. For me, this essay is immensely reassuring and galvanizing in a time when, as women are just beginning to come forward with decades of painful truths, we are still, immediately begged to think of the men and THEIR painful consequences.
23
What about the victim's pain and suffering? How about we focus on them for a while longer? Too many women's lives have been destroyed by selfish men for way too long. Time to turn the tables on the horrible, destructive actions of these men. They must own it as the women have been doing forever.
The one thing that is not clear is that women too must have jobs in order to eat and have a roof over their heads and often provide for their children.
Why should they be subjected to endless harassment and sexual abuse at their workplaces in order to do so? This must end somehow. It is called survival.
135
As this aspect seems to go completely unregarded by many, what about the people who have been made into unwitting victims simply by proximity of relationship? All of us are living in the same glass house that goes back at least as far as the propagation of the Gutenberg Bible.
1
Men are the majority of Sex offenders I agree, but predations by women also in positions of power occur also. It’s a power thing.
34
Yes, and who has the power? Equal pay for equal work. Until we have that, all good men should go on strike.
1
Once again: deflection is not a defense. It's an admission of guilt.
2
Let’s have more women in power and see what happens, then.
1
“Yes, we can and we will. Choosing consequences doesn’t belong to you anymore.”
People who degrade fundamental principles of of justice and advocate extremism will be sorry when they end up robbing us all A small group of elite pigs is no reason for anyone to forget about being a grown-up and indulge retributive feelings against men broadly.
The woman quoted should realize that she and her daughters, if she has any, will need to rely on those principles of justice down the road, We all will.
Some recent coverage in the Times will tend to create extremists on the other side, which is deeply unfortunate.
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@ dixon pinfold: "A small group of elite pigs is no reason for anyone to forget about being a grown-up and indulge retributive feelings against men broadly."
No sensible, fair-minded person wants to see all men tarred with the same brush. But the notion that male sexual misbehavior is confined to "a small group of elite pigs" demonstrates willful ignorance, at best. And even as we see daily proof of prominent men being held accountable for their sexual misconduct, there are thousands of women suffering in silence. Our society has a long way to go before we begin to see profound, lasting changes on this issue.
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"No sensible, fair-minded person wants to see all men tarred with the same brush." Tell that to Lindy West
3
Are they all "elite pigs"? Or is just that elite women have the power to finally speak, while non-elite women are still too terrified of their pigs to open up?
4
"We’re in the midst of a reckoning" - I believe that when Trump resigns.
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@ Kassis, his ego will not let him do it. More's the pity for us.
1
So, it's a Zero-Sum game. OK.
10
There should be no redemption. There are so many women forced from their jobs and blacklisted in their industries by men in power because they refused the men, that the taste of their bitter medicine of toxic masculinity is hardly punishment enough.
30
I concur. In fact, I think Ms. Tamblyn is not harsh enough, at least for the star players in this cast of losers. This was not just immoral behavior, not just egotism unleashed. It was more than power plays or bad party boys acting out because they could. Little of the sort. More than disrespectful, this was dishonorable, disgusting, and disturbed. This is more like psychological sediment that was stirred up by floods of money, by celebrity, by many in the orbit of these creeps kneeling to their whims. But the baseline of this behavior was always in them. They were damaged early on, and then created or were given the conditions to abuse trust, without a control or a conscience. After one or a second such incident, a well-adjusted man would not continue to inflict distress on others, and/or the self-sabotage. With Weinstein, Louis C.K., Lauer, Rose, etc. et al it was SERIAL. PATHOLOGICAL. Many of them don't need chances to atone, to redeem or readjust their careers, they need psychiatrists and long stints in lockdown rehab.
Not to mention that these "men" and their ilk have to some extent made suspects of many good men. I pity and abhor these cretins on grounds of right and wrong, but I also resent that they have injected doses of their poison even into those who observe the golden rule.
25
What about Susan Sarandon? She's apparently been excommunicated by Hollywood because she favored Sanders over Clinton.
Is this an "all women" thing, or a "women who agree with us" thing?
13
Umm, Sarandon co-stars in a just-released big Hollywood movie (Bad Moms 2), so I'm not sure what you mean by saying she was "excommunicated."
More than likely, you're just trying to muddy the waters with another round of "whataboutism." That's a tactic the Current Occupant has honed well, and you seem to have learned it. Bully for you.
36
Why drag a political argument -- and a dubious one at that -- into a discussion about sexual harassment and violence? Not everything is about Bernie Sanders!
5
It's not about Bernie Sanders. It's about women's voices.
The last reply I wrote to this got deleted. So much for being heard, right?
3
I tend to be in agreement that men have to cede the floor, particularly on this subject.
There is no amount of coercion, no amount of pressure, no amount of harassment that's correct. It's all wrong, even if it's all not illegal.
That said, I do worry about one thing--false witness.
I'm not saying that the harassed, as a rule, lie. I am inclined to think 99.9% of these incidents happen exactly the way the victim said they did. But I am worried about that .1%.
In every situation such as this, there are always a few enterprising grifters looking to take advantage of a moment or trend; I don't suppose this will be any different. The unscrupulous are out there, and they have more success if they can hide in the crowd and clamor. (And there is no gender preference in this--I can imagine women accusing men unjustly, men accusing men unjustly, women accusing women unjustly, even men accusing women unjustly. Not to mention all the permutations that non-binary people create.)
I'm (also) not saying that is it always better to let a hundred guilty be free of consequence than for one wrongly accused person be punished. But put yourself in those shoes--what if you were the wrongly accused, the victim of a mean revenge or money play?
I hope that as the accusations continue to fly, ever single one is vetted very, very carefully. But I wonder, in our fragmented and over-rushed media world, if that will always be the case.
16
I get your concern, Glenn. No one wants to be falsely accused of any sexual misconduct. But allegations are made to people in positions of power, and in this country and at this time, those people are much more likely to be men than women. It then seems safe to believe such allegations will be vetted very, very carefully.
Never in human history have denunciations been sanctioned by authorities or other influential persons without some individuals, for their own ulterior motives, denouncing the innocent (or mostly innocent).
7
I would have preferred to see the current level of women’s outrage over sexual assault during the 2016 presidential campaign. In that campaign then candidate Trump was shown bragging that he had sexually assaulted many women over many years. He then went on to receive over 40% of total women’s votes. That result seems to indicate that nearly half of women are entirely willing to overlook sexual assault when it suits them. While I agree there are a lot of “bad” men out there I’d suggest there are also more than a few women who are less than inspiring.
211
I too am wondering why he hasn't yet resigned. The gop enablers have no problem with him apparently.
Chuck, your admonition is misplaced. Men in this country gave us Trump at much higher numbers than women. Why should assault of women be an issue of concern only for women - are you saying that it's ok for men not to care about this? Also, you falsely equate men committing assault against women with women "overlooking assault." Thanks, but I don't really care what you "prefer to see."
5
It was 53% of white women who voted for Trump!
I have faith in the future because of amazing, and courageous young women like you!
10
Seems like we make some progress for a while, and then…
I’ve lived long enough to remember workplace harassment rules enacted but never testing them, knowing how no one would want to work with a complainer.
I remember being cornered in an elevator by a couple of unpleasant older guys angry about the Anita Hill hearings, letting a young secretary know in no uncertain terms how they felt about it.
I was well versed in feminist thought, reading The Second Sex, The Feminine Mystique, Our Bodies Ourselves, Backlash, and works by dozens of other fantastic women writers, helping me form a stronger sense of my personhood in the wider world. Perhaps this protected me from some of the worst abuse others have experienced, like wearing a suit of “don’t mess with me” armor. Or maybe I was just lucky.
Women are forcing a moment of reckoning for men in power, but my fear is that, after the dust settles, a new round of abuse will begin. It’s happened before.
25
We need to renew our demand for an Equal Rights Amendment. With this we will have the legal right to equality (not just for women but for all persons). This will give us the legal leverage to level the playing field.
Beyond this, this country needs to have an honest conversation about what it means to be a man, to be a woman, and how respect for our differences and acknowledgment of our similarities will lead to healthier relationships.
Our country desperately needs to return to decency and loving kindness, especially in light of an administration who disdains these. Our lives depend on it.
26
What about the voices of women who don't lump together Franken and Weinstein?
Do we get to be heard?
277
Of course, you can and should be heard. Write an editorial. Even if it's not in the NY Times, it still starts a conversation locally. Answer more fully than 2 sentences. I agree with you that their actions are significantly different and merit different punishment. What do you think those punishments should be? How does redemption fit into your view of this issue?
13
It's not about the individual man, Talbot. It's about the collective male behavior, fostered and promoted by religion and accepted by society for centuries too long.
It is not acceptable behavior - by anyone.
4
Good point. And how about the 42% of women who voted for Trump? This should be an obvious statement, but women aren't a monolith. And apparently millions of them were willing to excuse the allegations against Donald Trump and reward him with their votes.
4
Amen, my sister.
Women worldwide have (finally) hit critical mass.
We are early in this, and it is far too soon to speak of redemption for all the men that have used there power ad privilege ad strength to take advantage of others, when they could have simply maintained proper work relationships. And yes, I know humans and out relationships can be complicated, but work is work..
And there is that saying about not sleeping where you eat..
The way I look at it - as these creepy guys who have gotten away with so much for so long - #notallmen - not talking of you good guys, just the creeps..
Suddenly there are openings in journalism and television and film etc, for more women and POC to break the hegemony of white male dominance in each and every sphere. Please notice - it is the problem of dominance and lack of other voices that is the problem.
We all deserve to have our voices heard. Each and every one, Without silencing.
It is time for this with the loudest voices to try listening - for a change.
119
Is it perhaps a bit radically "woke" to suggest that the seams in the fabric of society are much more fragile than almost anyone seems to be aware of?
2
I am not in journalism, television, etc., and I'm not in a job where I ever hire anyone. But if I were a powerful man in such a position, I think I might conclude that the only safe way to run my workspace is to avoid hiring women in the first place. Be careful what you wish for.
1