The reason the email release didn't affect to election was because the other candidate was a national socialist. If the opponent were Fillon, Macron would have been crushed. Le Pen's economic policy proposals were far to the Left of Macron -- she was very close to Melanchon's positions in fact. France is burned out on leftist economic policies and the protectionism that goes with it -- thus Le Pen was a nonstarter.
2
The French have a big advantage in that they can get on a train or take their car on excellent highways to visit all the different countries that touch their borders. These include Spain, Andorra, Monaco, Italy, Switzerland, Germany, Belgium and Luxembourg. We can get to Canada and Mexico but they are a long way away from the areas of this country that seem to be most afraid of foreigners and other cultures. Other than Spanish language TV and the BBC, we don't have foreign language or other culture television either. Almost everyone in Europe speaks English because they can watch programs in other languages. When I visit my Danish friends, they can see TV shows in German, English, Norwegian, Swedish, Italian, French, etc. Almost everyone speaks at least some of three different languages. In the US a few Mainers speak French and people in the Southwest often speak some Spanish as a second language, but in the rest of the country it is only the immigrants that speak more than one. Have you noticed that a very large percentage of bank tellers are bilingual? Too many Americans are so busy feeling superior that they don't bother learning about other countries and cultures. Meanwhile, more and more of the "first world" will pass us by as we deteriorate to third world status.
2
Almost everyone in Europe speaks English? Except in France where movies are rarely shown in English with subtitles but rather dubbed. France has one of the lowest levels of English skills among all of Europe. English abilities are abysmal in France. Most French don't speak German or Spanish either. France is famously resistant to "foreign" linguistic influences.
When powerful elites want to subvert the truth they hide what they are doing from the public. The French government keeps the public from knowing the truth about their politicians. Are the French people better off not having the information from the hacked emails available to them from their media? If those Marcon emails have detrimental information, how will the French public respond? Will it throw their government into a chaotic situation? Our Sunshine Laws are in place so that we the people can know the truth about our elites, Government agencies and officials. Mrs. Clinton purposely tried to hide her activities from the American people, by knowingly subverting those same Sunshine Laws. However, our media wanted to reward her by having her elected the President of the USA. The American media was complicit in not running Mrs. Clinton out of the US Presidential campaign after emails proved she and the DNC were complicit in illegally rigging the primary process against Senator Sanders. If our corrupt mass media had morally done its job, Senator Sanders would be our President. Interestingly, hacked emails have also outed Michael Flynn. Without them he would still be the NSA Director. The hypocrisy of our major mass media is appalling, but most Americans just go along boot step with their party line. The Washington Post heralds that " Democracy Dies in Darkness," yet they spike the truth and print only what they want Americans and the World to know.
Education is key. Enough of outsourcing it for profit, fix what is wrong with the public education system. The US is already paying dearly for its attitude to education - a dumbed down populace.
And also higher education: Great article:
"Instead of treating higher education as a commodity, we need to treat it as a right. " https://harpers.org/archive/2015/09/the-neoliberal-arts/
And also higher education: Great article:
"Instead of treating higher education as a commodity, we need to treat it as a right. " https://harpers.org/archive/2015/09/the-neoliberal-arts/
1
"Les #Macronleaks apprendront-ils des choses que le journalisme d'investigation a délibérément tues ? Effrayant ce naufrage démocratique.".
Tues is the past participle from "taire" not the present simple from "tuer", correct translation is “Will Macron leaks teach us things that investigative journalism deliberately left untold? It’s shocking, this shipwreck of democracy.”
You're welcome.
Tues is the past participle from "taire" not the present simple from "tuer", correct translation is “Will Macron leaks teach us things that investigative journalism deliberately left untold? It’s shocking, this shipwreck of democracy.”
You're welcome.
Why? Parce que les Francais sont plus intelligent que nous tous.
4
Have you ever heard "don't ever underestimate the stupidity of the French?"
Jimmy Kimmel has a gig called "Lie Witness News" where Americans are asked about issues that affect us all, such as Trumpcare, and agree to statements such as "poor people should be required to donate a kidney for their healthcare" or "veterinarians should be allowed to perform surgeries to save money."
And it's sold as a "comedy" bit. In any other country, the populace would be horrified and deeply embarrassed their citizens were so profoundly ignorant, myopic and cruel.
ATTN: HOLLYWOOD
Do us a favor, and re-release George Carlin's most popular rants, but edit out all the laughter and make it appear that 's giving a speech or lecture. It will terrify millions with its accuracy and intensity. "The rich want your Medicare and they are going to take it!"
And we laughed and laughed and laughed...
as they made off all the way to the bank.
Jimmy Kimmel has a gig called "Lie Witness News" where Americans are asked about issues that affect us all, such as Trumpcare, and agree to statements such as "poor people should be required to donate a kidney for their healthcare" or "veterinarians should be allowed to perform surgeries to save money."
And it's sold as a "comedy" bit. In any other country, the populace would be horrified and deeply embarrassed their citizens were so profoundly ignorant, myopic and cruel.
ATTN: HOLLYWOOD
Do us a favor, and re-release George Carlin's most popular rants, but edit out all the laughter and make it appear that 's giving a speech or lecture. It will terrify millions with its accuracy and intensity. "The rich want your Medicare and they are going to take it!"
And we laughed and laughed and laughed...
as they made off all the way to the bank.
5
"staggering amount and possibility that some were fake"
And yet, there was never any claim that the DNC's emails were fake.
Only the release of what the DNC were doing to get Clinton to win over Sanders was enough for her to lose the election to Trump — and Clinton still blames the Russians and Comey for her defeat in Nov.
And yet, there was never any claim that the DNC's emails were fake.
Only the release of what the DNC were doing to get Clinton to win over Sanders was enough for her to lose the election to Trump — and Clinton still blames the Russians and Comey for her defeat in Nov.
5
This illustrates the importance of responsibility in a democracy. Not just the responsibility of elected leaders, but responsibility of sound news judgment and fairness within the media and responsibility for all voters to be discerning thinkers, readers, listeners and viewers. Do not assume you can trust what you are told. Be critical thinkers and rational skeptics. A functioning democracy requires that of each voter.
The NYT devoted much more coverage to HRC's emails than to her speeches and her platform.
4
I salute the French culture that prevents nefarious forces e.g. Fox from gaining a foothold.
The metastatic cancer that is Fox news has and continues to do more harm to the US than any foreign threat ever could including the threat of nuclear annihilation by adversaries e.g. North Korea.
Murdoch's ability to indoctrinate those unable to think for themselves (or think at all for that matter) has created a lethal force that undermines this country's best interests not to mention the best interests of those who have bought into the insidious Fox news propaganda.
The metastatic cancer that is Fox news has and continues to do more harm to the US than any foreign threat ever could including the threat of nuclear annihilation by adversaries e.g. North Korea.
Murdoch's ability to indoctrinate those unable to think for themselves (or think at all for that matter) has created a lethal force that undermines this country's best interests not to mention the best interests of those who have bought into the insidious Fox news propaganda.
5
In short, the French and the French media are smarter than in USA and UK. Better education system too.
3
The Times should be wary of celebrating the media censorship in France and much of Europe. Be careful what you wish for. It only seems beneficial because it benefits the candidate you prefer. What if it was Le Pen who had been hacked? There'd be a hue and cry to get those documents released, and they'd be all over the front pages. The media in France is hamstrung by censorship laws. The media in the United States is overwhelmingly biased to the left. And when I see the biased American media glowingly reporting on the censorship of European media, I am concerned.
5
Considering that right-wing blowhard Rupert Murdoch gamed our recent election and Fox media is the definition of fake news, your statement about media in the U.S. being overwhelmingly biased to the left is nonsense.
As for the media being censored in France and Europe - also untrue. It's simply regulated to prevent the kind of manipulation and fake news that the right spewed out here. There's a difference. But your concern is most likely because the principled media behavior in France didn't benefit the candidate you prefer. C'est la vie.
As for the media being censored in France and Europe - also untrue. It's simply regulated to prevent the kind of manipulation and fake news that the right spewed out here. There's a difference. But your concern is most likely because the principled media behavior in France didn't benefit the candidate you prefer. C'est la vie.
2
The thud was mainly because of the continuing non sense about Russia's single minded efforts to undermine democracy that are wildly overstated. Much of the hacking and disinformation comes from the US and Steve Bannon's allies who wanted to help Le Pen win. The Hillary Clinton case has clearly shown there are only "circumstantial indications", certainly no hard evidence that Russia was involved. This does not merit the full scale McCarthy like demagoguery that has spewed forth. France 24 already had named all the Russian culprits the moment the story broke and carried on about this goes along with the Clinton situation. This was before the self imposed French news black out occurred. So as much as Macron wanted to lambast Russia the French populace has given a cold shoulder.
2
Oh really? No hard evidence ? What reality do you live in?
Evidence exists of the Trump brothers paying hackers in Russia to publish news that was untrue regarding Hilary Clinton. There are also records that show the Kremlins plan to do so waaay in advance of the election. Follow the money !
Evidence exists of the Trump brothers paying hackers in Russia to publish news that was untrue regarding Hilary Clinton. There are also records that show the Kremlins plan to do so waaay in advance of the election. Follow the money !
2
This isn't about the French being clever. This is about the French MEDIA behaving in a moral and conscientious away. In stark contrast to the US media. This very newspaper, which I love, printed multiple dubious articles about hacked emails. You bought that Russian propaganda hook, line and sinker. And now you own that, forever. Whether you believe it or not - trust a subscriber of many, many years - you own this. You and the rest of the irresponsible, immature, out-gamed, out-played US media. The French media handled this responsibly. You blew it.
8
So , yes it is about the French being clever. They are smart and ethical in placing priorities where they eliminate the opportunity for compromise. Lets be clear - the U.S. media is now owned by corporate conglomerates. It is not the good ole days, when the town paper was a real newspaper. Even TV held its standards.
But we all know why the corporations bought the media outlets - to spin the stories that help make them more money.
But we all know why the corporations bought the media outlets - to spin the stories that help make them more money.
Maybe we should consider renaming "French Fries" to "Freedom Fries again. But this time in honor of the French who have temporarily stopped the march toward world "Trumpism."
2
Seems it was a brilliant strategy by the Macron campaign to, knowing it was being hacked, include a mass of their own fake documents so as to overwhelm and confuse the hackers. It's a dreadful thought that there was need for such obfuscation, but, whatever works (for now).
3
Maybe it simply means that the average French voter is smarter that the average American or British voter? Can we allow for that possibility?
7
Or they have better education because they have free college for everyone.
5
Might we be giving too much credit to Fox News? Most media is self-selected to affirm our pre-existing beliefs. Nobody who regularly watches Fox would be a potential Clinton voter. That said, France's decision to publish news in French only might make it more difficult for outsiders like Rupert Murdoch to challenge the official media.
A point that really stuck out to me... "the news media also heeded an admonition by the government's campaign regulatory body not to publish false news".
Why don't we have something like this here in the U.S? Do we? It's not the FCC. I honestly do not know.
Why don't we have something like this here in the U.S? Do we? It's not the FCC. I honestly do not know.
6
I didn't see the emails, but from what I read in French news outlets (right, left or center leaning media), there is nothing compromising against Macron in them. So end of story.
If you want to know what can sway French voters, get this: we had a real scandal during this campaign: the center-right candidate lost because it was revealed in an investigative news article that he put his wife on a fake government payroll when he was a member of parliament (so basically giving her government money for free). His name is François Fillon, he was predicted by many as the winner of this election actually! But after this scandal broke, he started dropping in the polls and didn't make it to the second round. Which is why we had Macron vs Le Pen in the runoff. So if there is a substantive evidence that there is a scandal, it will impact the vote. But if it's just a smokescreen and fake news, voters won't even pay attention to it. Sounds obvious, but that's how things work in France
If you want to know what can sway French voters, get this: we had a real scandal during this campaign: the center-right candidate lost because it was revealed in an investigative news article that he put his wife on a fake government payroll when he was a member of parliament (so basically giving her government money for free). His name is François Fillon, he was predicted by many as the winner of this election actually! But after this scandal broke, he started dropping in the polls and didn't make it to the second round. Which is why we had Macron vs Le Pen in the runoff. So if there is a substantive evidence that there is a scandal, it will impact the vote. But if it's just a smokescreen and fake news, voters won't even pay attention to it. Sounds obvious, but that's how things work in France
9
I am curious why you didn't speculate that the reason they (Macron's email) lacked efficacy is because they also lacked the political intrigue, exposition of bad character, and despicable behavior that Hillary and the DNC emails revealed.
5
Apparently the French aren't as gullible as US electorate.
3
Despicable behavior? Enough with the hyperbole about those relatively banal emails. Hilary Clinton is a political animal to be sure, but a smart, accomplished, well-intended, conscientious leader whose mistakes were swept into a media flurry that tapped into a healthy vein of American mysogyny. And Trump makes her look like Mother Theresa. Sounds like you fell for it hook, line, and sinker. Not so, the French.
The French seem to have a better response to political interference via hacking; they ignore it. Something we in the States have yet to master. The Russians, for their part, are just as ham-fisted as they were when it was the USSR. Let's face it, we haven't yet learned, as a society, to discern between disinformation (fake news), and true, useful, information.
11
The French are generally more pragmatic and less credulous than Americans.
5
France does not have the Electoral College as well as Fox news and the horror of endless political campaigns.
9
The US Presidential election is a long and exhausting process in the US. Given: The country is much larger and more votes to cast. However, the process can be shorter and come with less money thrown around to tear the opponent down esp. if it is a women running.
2
Of course it no doubt helps that Macron wasn't a SoS using a private email server to avoid FOIA regulations, didn't have a family foundation taking big money from foreign governments who had business with the State Department, hadn't given speeches for nearly a million dollars to Wall Street fraudsters and then withheld the transcripts, nor did his party collude against a popular populist candidate while pushing the MSM to inflate Pen because they thought she'd be the easiest to beat. This just proves it wasn't the so-called hacking, but the content that brought Clinton down.
3
Time to move to France, wish I had taken French in school.
5
Fox and the ilk are not 'the other side'. They are an entertainment industry developed by monied groups to promote extreme views and fear. That said, the mainstream media, which does attempt to 'show' many 'sides' gets completely caught up in following the rhythms of the news cycle dominated by those extremist views over 2 year long elections.
10
When there is an education system in place that gives its young people an education that includes the teaching of critical and dialectical discourse based on truth, plus an historically accurate representation of the past then you might get a population sophisticated and aware enough to recognise and dismiss the Russian hacking.
Well done France.
Well done France.
43
Thoughtfully and well written, Mr. Ashton. This country could use more minds like yours.
8
Absolutement!
Say what you will about the French and their sometimes open animus against America (although they were happy to see us when we liberated Paris in WW II), the country is too smart to fall for such an obvious attempt to sway an election.
No so with the United States unfortunately. The French literally view Fox News as Faux News.
No so with the United States unfortunately. The French literally view Fox News as Faux News.
12
If only the FBI had a media blackout surrounding the election. We could all sleep at night without worrying that the Republicans might sell out our bedsheets while we sleep.
seems there was nothing in hacks of interest, just routine back n forth. in usa
on other hand we learn hillarys people hated catholic church
, its logic of theological unity , n wanted to change the churchs intelligent
ideas so as to fit liberal agenda
hubrus caused her loss not hacks
on other hand we learn hillarys people hated catholic church
, its logic of theological unity , n wanted to change the churchs intelligent
ideas so as to fit liberal agenda
hubrus caused her loss not hacks
What about your own culpability?
You covered the Podesta and DNC leaks to death, just like other similar publications. You breathlessly quoted every major conspiracy and overplayed fairly innocent exchanges. You point at right-leaning publications, and then sanctimoniously ignore your own actions.
You did this.
You covered the Podesta and DNC leaks to death, just like other similar publications. You breathlessly quoted every major conspiracy and overplayed fairly innocent exchanges. You point at right-leaning publications, and then sanctimoniously ignore your own actions.
You did this.
Let's see... France hasn't an equivalent of FOX NEWS and this was partly a reason why the French made a sensible choice in the election.
Now let's put it another way... The U.S. DOES have FOX NEWS. It can then be said that FOX NEWS is partly responsible for the brainwashing of Americans into believing #AlternativeFacts (thanks KellyAnne -- the gift that keeps on giving) and keeping them stupid -- and helped to elect Donald J. Trump.
Yes, FOX NEWS -- one of Donald J. Trump's favorite TV channels and a major information source he uses to form his opinions that lead to executive actions!
Now let's put it another way... The U.S. DOES have FOX NEWS. It can then be said that FOX NEWS is partly responsible for the brainwashing of Americans into believing #AlternativeFacts (thanks KellyAnne -- the gift that keeps on giving) and keeping them stupid -- and helped to elect Donald J. Trump.
Yes, FOX NEWS -- one of Donald J. Trump's favorite TV channels and a major information source he uses to form his opinions that lead to executive actions!
13
In our case, Trump amplified everything that was "leaked"--and the media dutifully covered his meaningless amplification. We need to find out what Rupert Murdoch's agenda is. Everyone has a right to free speech--but we need to think about the difference between journalism and propaganda. I wonder if the French are asking MLP WHY she mentioned the "offshore account" at the end of the French debate? Was the FN in on the scheme to release this data? What a sad world. Way to go, Macron! Young, talented, smart and brave--wish we had one like him.
6
It appears that the French, in general, are a lot smarter than the average American, and care more for demowcracy.
9
The fact that election day is on Sunday, a day when most working class citizens are not at work and can take the time to vote, is sufficient evidence that France is much more of a democracy than the US. I wonder how many millions of American workers rarely vote because they work a 10-hour day, have a long commute in rush hour traffic, at a business too far from their poling place to vote on their lunch breaks or on their way home. How many conservative business owners often find a reason to assign a couple hours of overtime on election day? How many workers would be brave or foolish enough to complain when they do?
12
Excellent points, Richard.
2
You are so full of shit.
The right-wing attack on Hillary Clinton started nearly the day she arrived in Washington as First Lady. Those seeds were planted, tenderly and strategically cared for, then harvested and rabidly fed to social media.
Thank goodness France doesn't have Fox, and thank goodness my country had the wisdom to say no to Murdoch's vile propaganda machine as well.
Thank goodness France doesn't have Fox, and thank goodness my country had the wisdom to say no to Murdoch's vile propaganda machine as well.
12
More proof France does everything right. Media Blackout before an election so no one can tip the scales, no crazy partisan hacks on TV, no fox news channel, media from all sides not supporting fascism, media taking time to scrutinize the leaks, and most importantly voting on Sunday (a day off of work). Why can't America have these nice things?
Maybe something as simple as critical thinking is taught at schools in France.
11
One of the main differences that sets Europeans apart from Americans is that they are far more cynical.
4
And far less gullible.
5
Viva la France in this case. Fox might as well be renamed RT for Republican Times, with its viewers in the past found to be far more misinformed. McCain once chortled that Fox was Hanoi Hannah, the propaganda arm of the GOP.
Add in the special friendship between Murdoch and Trump, his son in law's tabloid, his incorporating of Ban on at Breitbart (a Mercer publication) and Alex Jones, and you have a flood of partisan fake news. Putin's propaganda attacked Hillary Clinton and promoted 3rd party candidates including Jill Stein (seen sitting at the same table as Putin and Flynn at an RT Moscow event). RT came up with a smear video on the Clinton Foundation that was viewed by more than 9 million gullible Clinton haters.
Trump is a demagogue but the role of the right wing fake news and Kremlin sponsored propaganda was enormous. Yesterday at the hearing both James Clapper and Sally Yates said they expected more Russian interference in the next elections since it worked this time. Clapper said it was far cheaper for Russia to harm the US like this than militarily.
New laws must be enacted to protect democracy. This was a crime, and what the Trump people did was pure treason for profit and power. Instead Trump and his administration are attacking the free press and its First Amendment protection. Still supporting authoritarianism.
Add in the special friendship between Murdoch and Trump, his son in law's tabloid, his incorporating of Ban on at Breitbart (a Mercer publication) and Alex Jones, and you have a flood of partisan fake news. Putin's propaganda attacked Hillary Clinton and promoted 3rd party candidates including Jill Stein (seen sitting at the same table as Putin and Flynn at an RT Moscow event). RT came up with a smear video on the Clinton Foundation that was viewed by more than 9 million gullible Clinton haters.
Trump is a demagogue but the role of the right wing fake news and Kremlin sponsored propaganda was enormous. Yesterday at the hearing both James Clapper and Sally Yates said they expected more Russian interference in the next elections since it worked this time. Clapper said it was far cheaper for Russia to harm the US like this than militarily.
New laws must be enacted to protect democracy. This was a crime, and what the Trump people did was pure treason for profit and power. Instead Trump and his administration are attacking the free press and its First Amendment protection. Still supporting authoritarianism.
11
Well put, SMB.
4
Without even reading the article, my only reaction to the headline is quite simple...because the French electorate has a brain and a sense of reality!
7
Same result in the U.S. - sore losers on the left (including HRC herself) just won't admit it.
1
"Mr. Hufnagel said that Libération would take time to evaluate and verify the leaked documents before writing any articles." MAYBE AMERICAN NEWS OUTLETS COULD LEARN FROM THIS!!!
7
Tonight, Tucker Carlson belched out to millions of by now completely brain washed viewers, his opinion that the French media blackout was censorship, that the voters had been robbed of pertinent information, thereby proving your point that FOX news was (and is,) the propaganda arm of the Trump regime. When all this is over, when justice has mercifully been done, a good third of Americans will need to take the equivalent of de-nazification classes and be thoroughly educated, if in nothing else, as to the pitfalls of Soviet style propaganda.
9
Clearly, the French have brains, as well morals and common sense.
Maybe some day we'll evolve to get them, too.
Maybe some day we'll evolve to get them, too.
7
This was obvious about 50 years when they were wise enough to get out of Vietnam and the US was foolish enough to take their place.
4
"the robust right-wing broadcast media in the United States, where the Clinton hacking attack generated enormous negative coverage"
Oh no you don't, NYT!
YOU pushed the email hacking as well as any rightwing outlet. YOU filled your frontpage with "there's no smoking gun, but it looks bad" innuendo, even though there was no wrongdoing in any of the mails, and they were all just office chatter just like Macrons. YOU had your own chief editor write an op-ed defending the use of false equivalency as editorial policy.
YOU are just as guilty of smearing Clinton as Breitbart or Fox News.
Oh no you don't, NYT!
YOU pushed the email hacking as well as any rightwing outlet. YOU filled your frontpage with "there's no smoking gun, but it looks bad" innuendo, even though there was no wrongdoing in any of the mails, and they were all just office chatter just like Macrons. YOU had your own chief editor write an op-ed defending the use of false equivalency as editorial policy.
YOU are just as guilty of smearing Clinton as Breitbart or Fox News.
11
No wrongdoing in any of the emails??? Like using the Clinton Foundation as a slush fund dubbed "Bill Clinton, Inc."? Like the transcripts that HRC refused to release, which showed she was in the pocket of Wall Street, thought they should regulate themselves? Like proving that the DNC was working to oppose Sanders all along, and was in collusion with the MSM to pump up Trump because he'd be the easiest to beat? The Times did not go far enough, but instead pushed the unproved Russian angle to let her off the hook.
Carolina,
What do you think of your boy now? More in bed with Wall St than HRC could ever be. Won't release his taxes. His 'true north' is self and family enrichment. Nothing indict-ably illegal, but totally immoral.
What do you think of your boy now? More in bed with Wall St than HRC could ever be. Won't release his taxes. His 'true north' is self and family enrichment. Nothing indict-ably illegal, but totally immoral.
4
It appears that the Macron campaign had some IT people who knew what they were doing. They appear to have established both fake login names and fake documents. These wasted considerable hacker resources. Well done.
Some details here:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2017/05/06/did-macron-outsmart-cam...
Some details here:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2017/05/06/did-macron-outsmart-cam...
3
In order to control fair elections in a USA democracy there must be a change; after all, the USA is a Democracy built on the strong foundation of a republic. While there is the 'Lone Ranger with a smoking gun' mindset in the states everyone there should know that is now how any social community works. Actually, when someone is alone we often suspect them of antisocial malcontent, and we should. With over 300 million people, the individual can not make laws which are not for the common good and benefits of all citizens. We citizens who live in a civil democracy realize that. Things need to get back on track. We need to insist that the power be given back to the people. The Judges in the Supreme Court need to be held feet to the fire when they bring in private religious or political convictions into any case before them. The Congress and Senate need to be limited in their power and this can only happen if voting is mandatory, districts to be made on the same lines that the counties are already formed. All election campaign need to be control with visible funds, churches and clubs (like the NRA) need to be separated from the political arena entirely. The campaigns need to be limited in cost and time. For the voters they need to know every aspirant's person record which includes their association, their values, their criminal and educational records (current and past). Finally, we voters need to realize that social media is just that, a personal opinion made public is not valid.
1
Lesson for anyone thinking about running for office: you and everyone in your organization must assume that every email can wind up in the public domain. Although less efficient, you must rely more on spoken conversations for truly sensitive discussions.
The French people seem to have learnt from the US experience of hacking. The vital part is they are more sensible. The allegation of hacking against Russia to influence the US presidential elections,was in the minds of the French people,so they treaded carefully. Macron's win is a slap in the face of hackers. As far as media is concerned,France does not have Fox News,but it does have France 24 - a government television channel available in other parts of the world. I have watched it,and it is a balanced-one. Hackers will have to adopt novel tricks - there are elections due in Germany,and the mother of all Brexit,which media reports say that Russia does not want a strong Europe. But there are no hacking allegations on Brexit. Is this not surprising? The same trick does not work always.
A higher level of collective intelligence and education, a higher number of citizens living in urban areas and no electoral college that pretty much discards the majority vote to give rural areas undeserved influence. The electoral college is an 18th century institution which has demonstrated its uselessness as we ended up with an unfit person as the president anyhow.
All families are alike but every unhappy family is unique in its own way. Leo Tolstoy starts his novel and in same lines every democracy have got certain features which are alike but they differ in many ways. Had all talk on hacking is true to its core then masses in different democracies react differently. We need to get to the bottom of why hacking happens and respective election commissions should take cognizance of such things.
It is also important to keep in mind that that election campaigns in most European countries only last a couple of weeks and not years and years like, say sorry, in the USA. There are also afaik pretty strict rules on campaign ads, i.e. when they can be shown and what they can contain, so the major parties all get the same airtime for instance.
Another factor why this didn't cause many waves: there's nothing particular sinister or embarrassing in the Macron campaign emails. The same certainly cannot be said about the material in the Podesta leaks (e.g. texts of Clinton speeches to industry groups).
So maybe the true lesson here is that democratic election campaigns and their candidates shouldn't do things in secret that would cause outrage among voters if they were to become public?
So maybe the true lesson here is that democratic election campaigns and their candidates shouldn't do things in secret that would cause outrage among voters if they were to become public?
French voters differ from their counterparts in the United States because they actually investigate the candidates, read up on the issues, and form judgements themselves. They can differentiate between fake news and real news because they actually have done their homework.
As a European I'm happy that Macron has one. But I have to admit that many didn't vote for him out of passion for Europe (or for him, for that matter) but because they didn't want to see Le Pen in charge.
Germany has to come to terms with that reality and finally give Macron something to work with. Many people in our country love Europe for the business opportunities but immediately reject the hard truth that part of our success is built on the decline of others.
We may have our house in order but we shouldn't be so smug about it because after all 15 years ago we had a barely moving economy on the brink of disaster which we could mainly bring back up by exporting all over the world while keeping our own investments low. Our infrastructure is falling apart while we could use the money we've earned from trade with other countries by rebuilding that infrastructure and in the process gain new goodwill by making sure that a large chunk of that investment goes to companies all over Europe and the United States of America.
We would have new infrastructure and at the same time would stop bleeding out other countries. This would create jobs and hopefully revive the interest in Europe and good relations with each other.
I just fear that my fellow Germans don't want to hear that and think this would lead to a new socialist experiment.
Germany has to come to terms with that reality and finally give Macron something to work with. Many people in our country love Europe for the business opportunities but immediately reject the hard truth that part of our success is built on the decline of others.
We may have our house in order but we shouldn't be so smug about it because after all 15 years ago we had a barely moving economy on the brink of disaster which we could mainly bring back up by exporting all over the world while keeping our own investments low. Our infrastructure is falling apart while we could use the money we've earned from trade with other countries by rebuilding that infrastructure and in the process gain new goodwill by making sure that a large chunk of that investment goes to companies all over Europe and the United States of America.
We would have new infrastructure and at the same time would stop bleeding out other countries. This would create jobs and hopefully revive the interest in Europe and good relations with each other.
I just fear that my fellow Germans don't want to hear that and think this would lead to a new socialist experiment.
1
Indeed, I fear the same. Most are quite ignorant in that matter. I personally welcome Macron's idea about an EU financial minister and a finance ministry but most EU/Euro member states favor the national state, a relict of the last century. But it would probably help certain countries much more than eternal debates about new credits.
1
"The National Front does not have the equivalent of a Bill O’Reilly or a Sean Hannity, the right-wing commentators who helped shore up Mr. Trump’s presidential bid"
So we are faced with an ethical and constitutional challenge from a corruption within our free press.
So we are faced with an ethical and constitutional challenge from a corruption within our free press.
There's no equivalent of FOX news in France? No journalist who is using the news to advance his/her own career by conducting smear campaigns?
When is the next flight to Paris? There actually are adults left on the planet.
When is the next flight to Paris? There actually are adults left on the planet.
1
The right wing doesn’t have a Fox News media empire in France? Why not? There’s big money to be made.
In the US Fox is the most listened to media with Rush Limbaugh, etc. The middle of the road media has helped the rw gain traction. It doesn't want to look left wing.
So the Times has often quoted Limbaugh on the issues of the day.
In 2014 it even quoted Rush and President Obama in the same sentence in a page 1 article about the Pope re controversy about poverty.
“ Popular Voice in the Capitol? It’s the Pope’s.”
It said, “Mr. Obama approvingly quoted the exhortation in a speech on inequality, but Rush Limbaugh, the radio host, promptly accused Francis of spouting “pure Marxism,” setting Washington conservative policy circles abuzz.”
Rush promptly set Washington abuzz. So was given equal prestige to the US President and the Pope in NYT quotes.
If France did have Fox-type media, would Le Monde ever quote its talk show host in the same sentence with its president—to give ‘the other side’?
The Times may think the public waits for Rush’s utterance on whether the Pope is actually a godless communist.
No quotes from any progressive talk show host?
With our big money election financing the rw has more power here than in other democracies. They now dominate our 3 branches.
Does the French media quote religious clergy opposing legal abortion or insurance coverage for contraception for employees? They get plenty of media and have authority in America.
In the US Fox is the most listened to media with Rush Limbaugh, etc. The middle of the road media has helped the rw gain traction. It doesn't want to look left wing.
So the Times has often quoted Limbaugh on the issues of the day.
In 2014 it even quoted Rush and President Obama in the same sentence in a page 1 article about the Pope re controversy about poverty.
“ Popular Voice in the Capitol? It’s the Pope’s.”
It said, “Mr. Obama approvingly quoted the exhortation in a speech on inequality, but Rush Limbaugh, the radio host, promptly accused Francis of spouting “pure Marxism,” setting Washington conservative policy circles abuzz.”
Rush promptly set Washington abuzz. So was given equal prestige to the US President and the Pope in NYT quotes.
If France did have Fox-type media, would Le Monde ever quote its talk show host in the same sentence with its president—to give ‘the other side’?
The Times may think the public waits for Rush’s utterance on whether the Pope is actually a godless communist.
No quotes from any progressive talk show host?
With our big money election financing the rw has more power here than in other democracies. They now dominate our 3 branches.
Does the French media quote religious clergy opposing legal abortion or insurance coverage for contraception for employees? They get plenty of media and have authority in America.
Nothing has changed in France as a result of this election. They have an astounding youth unemployment rate of 23% and an economy that is dreadful. Both candidates are socialist so either would continue France's slide into the abyss.
Can we just stop saying its news? Fox isn't news, it's a propaganda channel. The definition of propaganda is something that 'spreads ideas, information, or rumor for the purpose of helping or injuring an institution, a cause, or a person'. We need to stop pretending that America is a country where freedom from such things exist. Given the conglomerate ties of major news outlets (even the factually correct ones), the US media scene is open to the risks of manipulation and deceit for self gain. There is no better example of Fox News. In most countries. regulations on hate speech and libel limit the impact of such outlets. In the US, we 'pride' ourselves on saying its freedom of speech, and then let the millions who are gullible be brainwashed into some alternate reality which is on par with what we are seeing in some developing countries, where 'alternative facts' have existed for decades as far as governments are concerned.
A 44 hour legal blackout on news reporting around an election would be very useful here too.
1
There is no question that Fox news aided the fake news distribution. Their strength lies in rural areas that the electoral college over represents.
The failure of most media to challenge Fox fake news is also a problem. It seems that journalists are fearful of criticizing them.
The failure of most media to challenge Fox fake news is also a problem. It seems that journalists are fearful of criticizing them.
16
Don't under estimate the effect of snakebitten "Christian" preachers on US rural radio listeners. The spectrum is dominated by the most awful end-times firebrands the fascists who bought the stations could find and enable.
1
France is known for being the Land of Enlightenment - a rationalistic, intellectual movement that emphasised reason and science in philosophy and in the study of human culture and the natural world. French children learn the basics of their history, art and literature at school.
Indeed, we Europeans have learned a lesson from the US presidential election - the horrifying idea of having a Trump-like leader.
Far-right media outlets in Britain and the US are as poisonous and dangerous as the Pravda in the Soviet era. The only difference is that the former is owned by reactionary media moguls, who enrich themselves by demoralising the society and destabilising the country under the banner of freedom of press. Generations of readers and viewers are so brainwashed that they can no longer feel themselves at home in a real and normal world.
Indeed, we Europeans have learned a lesson from the US presidential election - the horrifying idea of having a Trump-like leader.
Far-right media outlets in Britain and the US are as poisonous and dangerous as the Pravda in the Soviet era. The only difference is that the former is owned by reactionary media moguls, who enrich themselves by demoralising the society and destabilising the country under the banner of freedom of press. Generations of readers and viewers are so brainwashed that they can no longer feel themselves at home in a real and normal world.
36
The French revolution created the scientifically based measurement system now used by the whole world outside of this paradise of ignorance, bullies and buster that calls itself "free" and "brave" and claims to facilitate pursuit of happiness.
2
The last moment disclosure of the hacking news by which time the French voters had already made up their minds, and recalling of the US experience that had caused the disastrous electoral outcome there could be perhaps the factors that proved crucial to render the hacking news ineffectual in France.
9
Easy - The French people used their critical thinking skills and saw through the con that Le Pen was offering. Unfortunately, there is a segment of the American population that is woefully lacking in common sense and intelligence. They also voted for a con artist who is going to take away their health insurance and not create more jobs for them.
44
I don't know what comes first, belief that nature has a human personality, or just plain idiocy.
A pity they could not use their critical thinking skills to see through the con of Macron. Macron was in the Socialist party for three years, but says he is really a rightist, and ran as "centrist." Le Pen is not clever enough to change all the time, so the people see through Le Pen. When will Con Artists learn that the people see through them all the time.
This imbalance could be easily mitigated simply by us exporting Fox News to France.
5
Strange. The only moderator out of four at the debates not accused of partisanship and acknowledged to be fair was Chris Wallace...
4
It also had a lot to do with the fact that many of the documents were extremely clumsy forgeries, and that Macron was already up by more of a margin than Hillary Clinton won Massachusetts and had just crushed Le Pen in the debate. Even if there were a French Breitbart, no news blackout, and these documents were authentic, it wouldn't have mattered: at worst, he'd win by something like 61-39 rather than 66-34.
4
Unfortunately for us, the general election was without substance and never rose to a level above mud wrestling.
That's what we got because we didn't demand more.
That's what we got because we didn't demand more.
12
With a history of never asking, please, explain how that is done?
Fox fraudulently represents itself as news. It is actually the world leader in faking news.
28
"No Fox in France"…! Don't go giving rupee any ideas!
7
"We don't have a Fox News in France". These eight words make for a profound statement that endear my heart to my adopted country. The American mentality expressed by Trumpism literally drove me from my native country into the arms of France.
I thank the lucky stars that France is still what it is during my lifetime!
I thank the lucky stars that France is still what it is during my lifetime!
54
Michael in France.....Ok, you are happy to be in a non fox news nation. Don't blame you. But tell us how is the media in your beloved France? What's the range of reporting and opinion? I watch the France 24 show "The Debate" in english.
How is the public media there compared to NPR, which is so under funded, it's driven to corporate sponsors and frequent announcement of them, which are really commercials. There's no non commercial media here.
How is the public media there compared to NPR, which is so under funded, it's driven to corporate sponsors and frequent announcement of them, which are really commercials. There's no non commercial media here.
It's convenient to blame Fox News for everything, but the New York Times also played an important role in sensationalizing the hacks in France and the US, as well as the Comey disclosures last Fall.
16
This newspaper doesn't seem to have a strategy either.
5
The French citizens collective ability at critical reasoning sure seems to have outpaced ours. I wonder how the two countries compare in the number of people they educate at the college level.
22
If only the US media covered elections so carefully, deliberately, and impartially.
15
There's not enough new under the sun to keep people who know what is going on reading.
Maybe hacking never had and effect on any election. Macron is a complete outsider who at 39 is the president of France. He is an investment banker who is supposed to by a lefty. The left is making this look like a victory for the left but Macron isn't a lefty. He just beat somebody way way right.
Also what do we have in this hack. Nothing because it was all censored and that for the left is now a good thing. Because free speech is well let just say....getting out of hand.
Hillary lost the presidency because the democrats lost the pulse of reality. They had it all eight years ago and now they have nothing. They lost all the branches of government in eight years!!! They even had Roberts eight years ago!!! Sure it was Comey who did us in. Keep pretending. And that Perez pick for the DNC? Just a vulgar guy with no inspiration for the educated left in the democratic party.
Also what do we have in this hack. Nothing because it was all censored and that for the left is now a good thing. Because free speech is well let just say....getting out of hand.
Hillary lost the presidency because the democrats lost the pulse of reality. They had it all eight years ago and now they have nothing. They lost all the branches of government in eight years!!! They even had Roberts eight years ago!!! Sure it was Comey who did us in. Keep pretending. And that Perez pick for the DNC? Just a vulgar guy with no inspiration for the educated left in the democratic party.
7
So many words, so little in the way of ideas.
16
The only thing that was interesting about the hacked Democratic Party material was that it was hacked. Otherwise, it was just what one expects of people engaged in political campaigns.
10
if you voted for trump (as it sounds like you did, from your post) you really shouldn't be referring to anyone else as 'vulgar'. seriously.
1
Dear People of France, Congratulations! You successfully protected your democracy. If our failure to protect our own election from foreign interference helped you, there's hope.
24
It is democracy that guarantees that the people don't get any ideas they should not have.
I imagine the executives at Ford sit around and say things would be going so much better for them if GM wasn't making cars as well. Admittedly Fox goes a bit far afield at times but a Conservative counterpoint in this country is necessary.
6
There is little on Fox that is credible
1
Hello Thomas, I suggest you read the numerous comments to Ed's message, who was making the same argument as you. In substance: There are many commentators in France who stand for conservative values with talent and vigor. What we don't have is a reactionary (let's call things by their name) network like Murdoch's Fox News.
Why are the French not in favor of extremism:
Better education of history and philosophy. A culture of independent thinking, discourse and skepticism. A country which has been invaded and suffered war and understands the damage it causes. The geographical advantage of having many neighboring countries, and therefore a more open sense of the world. The limited amount of money poured into political campaigns (and in general a less absurd spending habit). The media blackout before an election until ALL results are counted. A press which respects its mission and relative truth.
(I am a duo French-American citizen)
Better education of history and philosophy. A culture of independent thinking, discourse and skepticism. A country which has been invaded and suffered war and understands the damage it causes. The geographical advantage of having many neighboring countries, and therefore a more open sense of the world. The limited amount of money poured into political campaigns (and in general a less absurd spending habit). The media blackout before an election until ALL results are counted. A press which respects its mission and relative truth.
(I am a duo French-American citizen)
39
The French Revolution broke bad, and everybody knows it.
2
Yes, the US, even in the internet age, seems cut off from the world by 2 vast oceans (and northern border to Canada).
You'd think the Times or some media outlet might send a reporter over to Canada, so near, and yet so far ideologically, and ask a few people how they pay for and use their health care for all (since 1960s!).
Such comparisons might inject some reality into our fierce, destructive political battles . As in other capitalist democracies, health care for all in France wasn't even a contested issue in the Macron/Le Pen contest.
You'd think the Times or some media outlet might send a reporter over to Canada, so near, and yet so far ideologically, and ask a few people how they pay for and use their health care for all (since 1960s!).
Such comparisons might inject some reality into our fierce, destructive political battles . As in other capitalist democracies, health care for all in France wasn't even a contested issue in the Macron/Le Pen contest.
The real joke about the DNC emails is that Hillary claims the state department emails on her server were secure yet not even the DNC could protect its data.
Then the. Only thing released was the truth--accurate emails. When the owner of the LA Clippers was forced to sell because of private comments made within the confines of his own home because his trust was betrayed by his wife,, why should we as a moral matter not hold the DNC and HRC to the same standards.
The truth is an absolute defense to libel and so it is to any complaint that you were hacked.
Don't say anything in an email that you would not want to see in the front page of the NYT or FOX News or the Onion.
Then the. Only thing released was the truth--accurate emails. When the owner of the LA Clippers was forced to sell because of private comments made within the confines of his own home because his trust was betrayed by his wife,, why should we as a moral matter not hold the DNC and HRC to the same standards.
The truth is an absolute defense to libel and so it is to any complaint that you were hacked.
Don't say anything in an email that you would not want to see in the front page of the NYT or FOX News or the Onion.
6
So, with the experience in France in hand, we have some salient questions. Are "news" outlets like Fox and those (incredibly) to the right of Fox virtual traitors rather than just a critical opposition? Has our generally responsible news media learned something about uncritically, and without necessary context, parroting every piece of information they're handed? Will the corporate owners of such news media now see their news divisions as something apart, different and vital to the welfare of the nation and view profit from those operations with a lesser priority than they have recently up to now? The French are somewhat upset that turnout for the election was "only" 75%. There would be major self congratulatory back slapping if our turnouts came even within hailing distance of that number. Maybe the nature of the French media has something to do with that level of participation? Food for thought within our media, I'd say.
17
Who founded Fox, the Russians or Islamic terrorists? Doesn't matter Rupert Murdoch is the puppet of our worst enemies. In the attempt to be tolerant, the US foolishly tolerated Intolerance. Will they finally brand Fox as hate speech and shut it down? ...or is it already too late?
Someone else will carry the torch, not the US and certainly not the Russians. At least the French announced that Germany will have a partner in the dark years ahead.
Someone else will carry the torch, not the US and certainly not the Russians. At least the French announced that Germany will have a partner in the dark years ahead.
13
The only puppet Murdoch is dancing for is for money.
10
I am not so sure french are smarter than us as many seem to claim.
A look at the world press freedom index puts France at the 39 place. Nothing to be proud off.
That we have heard nothing of the contents of the leaks, is witness to the sad state of journalism in France, not the opposite.
“Journalism is printing what someone else does not want printed: everything else is public relations.”
George Orwell
A look at the world press freedom index puts France at the 39 place. Nothing to be proud off.
That we have heard nothing of the contents of the leaks, is witness to the sad state of journalism in France, not the opposite.
“Journalism is printing what someone else does not want printed: everything else is public relations.”
George Orwell
5
They are smarter because they didn't blindly fall into the "ratings at the cost of everything else" mentality that has consumed American media. Just think if the talking heads hadn't interviewed Trump in front of Trump Tower every blessed morning, thereby giving him tons of free publicity and very unfair exposure over every other candidate for the Republican nomination. We might have ended up with someone sane instead of someone who views the presidency as a way to enrich himself and his family.
18
The important fact you don't seem to get is that Americans don't need a third party to audit truth. Ratings reflect how many watch a part of the story.
The USA is number 43 on the world press freedom index with Burkina Faso and Comores as bed fellows.
Smarter possibly because they do teach critical thinking at school and the population does seem more knowledgeable about politics and more interested in such things in general, maybe cultural - and from a young age. Education here is sorely lacking in all these areas, even Civics is barely taught in many schools.
Smarter possibly because they do teach critical thinking at school and the population does seem more knowledgeable about politics and more interested in such things in general, maybe cultural - and from a young age. Education here is sorely lacking in all these areas, even Civics is barely taught in many schools.
Bravo! Many americans mock the french, however I think this election has shown us that the french are far wiser than we are. They weren't taken in by Le Pen, by the hacking, or by the far right americans who tried to meddle and spread extremist messages.
Vive le France!
Vive le France!
34
You are far too kind to the American electorate, nearly half of whom voted for a man who rose to political prominence as the head of the birther movement, branched out to full-throated racism, misogny, and ridiculing the disabled and, as an encore, incited violence against the press and anyone that protested his hate-filled campaign.
The French have their problems, but unlike many voters in the US presidential election, they appear like much of the rest of the world to be sickened by the hate and diviseness that Trump represents and smart enough to know that down the Le Pen and Trump path no good outcome awaits.
Blame Fox news, Russian hacking, Comey, whatever, but in the end American voters, unlike the French, proved themselves unworthy of the demands democracy requires of its citizens.
The French have their problems, but unlike many voters in the US presidential election, they appear like much of the rest of the world to be sickened by the hate and diviseness that Trump represents and smart enough to know that down the Le Pen and Trump path no good outcome awaits.
Blame Fox news, Russian hacking, Comey, whatever, but in the end American voters, unlike the French, proved themselves unworthy of the demands democracy requires of its citizens.
51
"nearly half" ? only nearly half of the American electorate even voted so it was actually more like "nearly a quarter" voted for Trump. Around 24% I think, the other 26% voted for Hillary Clinton. The remaining 50% didn't vote.
Chris,
Very well stated! I couldn't agree more.
Very well stated! I couldn't agree more.
True. Fox News is appalling antisocial outlet which would not be permitted in any civilized society. Its not about republican views just out and out repeated lies, the hitler POV if u say it enough it will become the truth. Murdoch and his team are and have been pure evil and used airways granted by the government to libel at will. Time to take their license away
25
By chance, Rupert Murdoch is francophobiac, he didn't think to settle in France,
the French aware ot that facts, therefore they haven't brains polluted by its gutter media.
the French aware ot that facts, therefore they haven't brains polluted by its gutter media.
No equivalent to Fox News in France and 1/3 of the electorate voted for Le Pen?
Smells like an investment opportunity. I hear there is an American newsman who recently became available to host a show.
Smells like an investment opportunity. I hear there is an American newsman who recently became available to host a show.
4
The other effect of a lack of Fox News is that it can't drag the rest of the media into feeling forced to cover it, compromising obvious journalistic standards to avoid criticism for being the "liberal media."
12
Seth, your comment is important. The Fox News Empire grew after Bill Clinton repealed anti monopoly laws for media. It's so big it drags other media rightward or weakens the more liberal media. Many crucial issues are avoided even on msnbc.
Same as the Gop rw extremism has dragged the Dems away from its past as party of the average working citizen.
I said in my comment just posted that the NYT has often quoted Rush Limbaugh, a talk show host, to oppose politicians and experts on a variety of issues of the day. And even to oppose President Obama in the same sentence. The NYT doesn't want to be labeled a liberal paper.
Same as the Gop rw extremism has dragged the Dems away from its past as party of the average working citizen.
I said in my comment just posted that the NYT has often quoted Rush Limbaugh, a talk show host, to oppose politicians and experts on a variety of issues of the day. And even to oppose President Obama in the same sentence. The NYT doesn't want to be labeled a liberal paper.
How about each of the campaigns being aware of the danger, tracking fake news attacks on social media and being prepared with contingency plans and counter-measures.
How about enforcing basic password security rules. I will never forgive John Podesta's laxness.
And then how about running a clean campaign with a clean candidate, at least in the case of Macron. It's hard to throw mud when you can't find that much dirt...
How about enforcing basic password security rules. I will never forgive John Podesta's laxness.
And then how about running a clean campaign with a clean candidate, at least in the case of Macron. It's hard to throw mud when you can't find that much dirt...
5
That's right, it's Fox News' fault that HRC lost the election.
5
Don't forget the true facts released by the Russians. Nothing is so harmful as the truth. How unfair.
3
News article of the day.
The stark anatomization quoted here, from a French commentator, of how the American organ known facetiously as Fox News selects its daily dose of myth to pump "for its own agenda," is urgently important to present to the widest American audience. So exactly correct.
The stark anatomization quoted here, from a French commentator, of how the American organ known facetiously as Fox News selects its daily dose of myth to pump "for its own agenda," is urgently important to present to the widest American audience. So exactly correct.
10
Bottom line: The French are not idiots, the way we in America were, and they don't have loudmouths shouting 24 hours a day on TV any lie that matches their crackpot theories, as we have on Fox News.
30
No Fox news? What a blessed country!
22
So the French election is long over, but we're still waiting to learn what was revealed in the "hacked" material.
Isn't that peculiar?
Or maybe you don't think the contents should be revealed, even after the news blackout in France has expired.
Isn't that peculiar?
Or maybe you don't think the contents should be revealed, even after the news blackout in France has expired.
4
If there even was any "hacked" material" - let's start at the beginning shall we.
We have been lied to from birth by well meaning people who themselves shared the same, only earlier, fate. There is little or no choice we can exercise before our late teenage years to counter the brainwashing to which we are exposed throughout our early lives.
This is clearly an advantage most politicians including Mr Trump, who I doubt is a religious man, use at their discretion to convince and allay concerns of those whose vote is sought.
It is comforting to think that because a person professes a religious belief he or she can and should be trusted when in fact the current of hypocrisy runs deepest in some of those who wear belief on their sleeves.
There is little evidence we are a remotely sophisticated people and less that we are willing to learn.
This is clearly an advantage most politicians including Mr Trump, who I doubt is a religious man, use at their discretion to convince and allay concerns of those whose vote is sought.
It is comforting to think that because a person professes a religious belief he or she can and should be trusted when in fact the current of hypocrisy runs deepest in some of those who wear belief on their sleeves.
There is little evidence we are a remotely sophisticated people and less that we are willing to learn.
10
Our last election proved that we need to require voting by everyone over 18. We have a relatively few very scared people take over our political process. Don't know if forcing everyone to vote would solve this but we ought to all be accountable for it.
3
Perhaps because the French are not as glued to their phones as Americans are. Maybe they look up once in a while, and maintain the ability to think coherently about things.
11
France is still a democracy and here is how you know: they respect workers rights and do not allow charlatans and extremists to use market forces embedded in the media to manipulate and lie at the expense of social justice and fairness.
166
France doesn't have a "Fox News"....meaning they don't have an irresponsible highly opinionated and biased news outlet that feeds on conspiracy theories and outright lies?
20
Unlike the United States--(see here) https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/first-russo-american-cyberwar-how-obama-l... --France clearly has a system, campaigning rules, a media culture, and a society far better built to withstand such election meddling. I hope the U.S. learns from this.
16
So, the point of the article that Frances mainstream press that keeps their citizens in silence and shares a similar view as the euro centric government is doing the right thing? Questionable logic
6
Read the article instead of flaunting your ignorance for the world to see.
13
Your comment is too simple and biased to describe what happened in France.
4
They have very wise measures banning media invasion in the last--how many, 24 or 48 hours? A nice filter allowing people to reflect and digest the barrage of propaganda and information on both sides. No polling, no noise like the circus in the USA all the way to the doors of the voting places.
Then, too, maybe the publishing of hacked material does not make such a difference, does not brain wash people and make them change at the last minute as Democrats looking for alibis for the upset are trying to prop up. People ultimately make up their own minds. That was an example to the world that the French gave us this Sunday.
Then, too, maybe the publishing of hacked material does not make such a difference, does not brain wash people and make them change at the last minute as Democrats looking for alibis for the upset are trying to prop up. People ultimately make up their own minds. That was an example to the world that the French gave us this Sunday.
6
if the right-wing has a message and is really honest about its promises to people, it shouldn't resort to such lowly tricks!! who knows?! this hack might have even alerted many who had negative views about the establishment!!
2
Maybe the French voters are not as bitter and twisted ?
15
It seems to me that the French have it wrong here. Basically what happened in France is they chose when the press had freedom to report and when they did not. I really don't care which candidate won or lost the election; it is clear the French people lost their ability to make a decision based on all the information that was available at the time.
As voters it is our responsibility to look into what is reported, determine the validity of the information, and make an informed decision on who or what to vote for or against. Unfortunately the French were denied that opportunity.
As voters it is our responsibility to look into what is reported, determine the validity of the information, and make an informed decision on who or what to vote for or against. Unfortunately the French were denied that opportunity.
8
The last moments before an election are not the time for the release of new information, because there is no time to get the facts right and no opportunity for affected parties to respond.
24
Oviously, Jason isn't aware that the French have 35 $ per month fast Internet connection and can have world over informations.
1st Thought: The average French is more intelligent, educated and informed than the average American. And, voted accordingly.
2nd Thought: The election of Trump in the US has actually help galvanize the world. The French reacted accordingly. That's the real Trump bump.
2nd Thought: The election of Trump in the US has actually help galvanize the world. The French reacted accordingly. That's the real Trump bump.
24
Gentlemen's agreement is still alive in some places, while everything, including politics, has become a pure business or game in some others.
7
Give me a break--66% voted for a former banker with no party and who once worked for Rothschild, Bottom line, impossible to "hack" French bourgeois social-fiscal policies: Check's in the mail mit two-hour workweek.
Euro ties them to the German banks which fill them with loans like a foie gras goose. Someday they'll be cooking it, too, if Macron's open-borders and expanded globalization don't get them first, that is.
Euro ties them to the German banks which fill them with loans like a foie gras goose. Someday they'll be cooking it, too, if Macron's open-borders and expanded globalization don't get them first, that is.
7
Why is a restaurant in San Diego commenting on a political post?
10
No, France does not have an equivalent of Faux News. But they are about to get a Breitbart office - which the company had actually hoped to open prior to the election for the very purpose of trying to help Le Pen.
15
Too bad we couldn't have had a media blackout starting two weeks before the election, so Comey couldn't have tipped the scales.
19
The THREE major reasons why hacking and subsequent leaks failed in France.
"First, French news outlets respected the blackout."
"Second, the news media heeded an admonition by the government’s campaign regulatory body not to publish false news."
Third, "France does not have an equivalent to ....the robust right-wing broadcast media in the United States."
So, what are French then, in one word???
SMARTER!!
"First, French news outlets respected the blackout."
"Second, the news media heeded an admonition by the government’s campaign regulatory body not to publish false news."
Third, "France does not have an equivalent to ....the robust right-wing broadcast media in the United States."
So, what are French then, in one word???
SMARTER!!
49
I think we have something called the first amendment.
"first amendment" has limitations also. Oft used example - no one can shout fire when there is none in a crowded room.
It's the RESPONSIBLE exercise of "first amendment" that is the issue here.
It's the RESPONSIBLE exercise of "first amendment" that is the issue here.
The United States has so much to learn from this. And so little interest in doing so.
30
In other words; Our MSM gave the Wikileaks here in America credibility.
12
@C. Morris,
What you mean Wikileaks' credibility? You can hate Wikileaks but all their leaked materials were authentic.
What you mean Wikileaks' credibility? You can hate Wikileaks but all their leaked materials were authentic.
They have already experienced Marie Antoinette - Trump is the cake-man now.
Ugh
Ugh
12
"The fallout was contained, partly because of a news blackout and partly because France lacks an equivalent to Fox News."
Of course it helps that there was a news blackout and no Faux news. But do not underestimate the possibility that the French take their voting more seriously than Americans.
Of course it helps that there was a news blackout and no Faux news. But do not underestimate the possibility that the French take their voting more seriously than Americans.
17
It appears the French have several things to teach us: First that right-wing populism can be halted and defeated by a discerning electorate. Second, that the press in France has more respect for publishing the truth or, to put it another way, not publishing "fake news". Lessons that the MSM in the United States should take to heart. As for the U.S. electorate...well, we can hope that at least some of the Trump supporters have given serious thought to their voting decision.
16
The French press did not report on the contents of the leaked documents because there were nothing substantial to report. And then there was a blackout period. Even today, they still did not find any hidden offshore accounts in the leaked documents. It was not a deliberate attempt to suppress negative information regarding Macron as suggested by the article.
10
..... fellow americans? this is how it is done.
7
Yeah... if you agree with the outcome. Talk about hindsight being 20/20
3
America's reaction to the hacking had little or nothing to do with Fox, and virtually everything to do with the Clintons and their power.
Try telling someone from Europe that the FBI warned the DNC for months about hackers and the DNC ignored them. That the hackers got entry because people replied to phishing emails telling them to change their password immediately. And that the documents released were real and revealed things like the DNC actively working to undermine Sanders during the primary.
When they ask about the Republicans, explain that they didn't hang up on the FBI, didn't respond to phishing emails, and increased cybersecurity when advised to do so.
The person usually finds that almost impossible to believe given the charges of collusion. But that's exactly as the Times reported it.
Try telling someone from Europe that the FBI warned the DNC for months about hackers and the DNC ignored them. That the hackers got entry because people replied to phishing emails telling them to change their password immediately. And that the documents released were real and revealed things like the DNC actively working to undermine Sanders during the primary.
When they ask about the Republicans, explain that they didn't hang up on the FBI, didn't respond to phishing emails, and increased cybersecurity when advised to do so.
The person usually finds that almost impossible to believe given the charges of collusion. But that's exactly as the Times reported it.
6
Because the French aren't glued to the internet like Americans! That's why it didn't do anything!
5
Morale of the story is that FOX News is a cancer to our democracy.
When will corporate America learn to realize that the country comes first before your bottom line.
In capitalism, this is a wishful thinking.
When will corporate America learn to realize that the country comes first before your bottom line.
In capitalism, this is a wishful thinking.
20
Remember that this country was founded on the backs of slaves - capitalism based on slavery for profit. That's why Jefferson (for example), knowing full well that slavery was wrong, went ahead with it anyway. With this type of greed, the fate of ordinary people, including the poor and oppressed, never comes first.
9
also? when will the idiots realize that an eccentric Australian billionaire is not really the last word in patriotism. maybe if they realize that? they will ask themselves the followup question.... why is he trying to hard to influence us?
10
HRC was just out of touch with her potential voters and had been beaten up by our media for too long- you can't blame her loss on fake news and assume just because the good guy won in France the fake news must not have worked.
Did fake news influence our election? Probably. Did it influence France's election? Probably.
Does that sound like a headline? No.
Did fake news influence our election? Probably. Did it influence France's election? Probably.
Does that sound like a headline? No.
4
Maybe the French are so sexist and misogynistic that Mme. Le Pen never had a realistic shot at winning the election anyway. Certainly, as the American elections taught us, it cannot be because the female candidate was a bad candidate with unpopular positions on important issues. But enough French voters voted for the woman with the awful positions, just like in America.
12
They definitely not. Macron's wife is 25 years his senior (with a story that would have been scandalous in the USA) and no big deal. Imagine here.
7
And you seem to conveniently forget the ONLY person under investigation by the FBI on Nov 8th 2016 was TRUMP
5
You are correct. In America we did NOT have a situation where the female candidate was a bad candidate with unpopular positions on important issues -- indeed, in American the female candidate won the popular vote by a YUGE amount showing that most voters agreed with the female candidate's position and that the only reason she lost is the fact in America we don't have a democracy where everyone's vote is equal but a situation where in states in which many deplorables vote, votes are worth many multiples of states in which patriots reside. In France the female candidate's positions were such that she lost.
Is it possible that misogyny played a large part with many of those voting againt Mme Le Pen, as it did among the deplorables in our country? It certainly is possible, although unlikely since Mmd Le Penn was the right wing reactionary candidate, the French equivalent to Trump.
Is it possible that misogyny played a large part with many of those voting againt Mme Le Pen, as it did among the deplorables in our country? It certainly is possible, although unlikely since Mmd Le Penn was the right wing reactionary candidate, the French equivalent to Trump.
And because the French had the example of the debacle in the United States.....
7
Specifically, there is no Robert Murdoch in France
7
Or a Rupert Murdoch, either.
And James and Lachlan Murdoch, who are also profiting from the ill gotten gains of Fox News, should not be left out. So long as there is Fox & Friends, Hannity, Judge Whacko Plastic Surgery and the rest of Fox's motley crew, James and Lachlan own that network. Never forget to lay the blame for Fox News in their laps as well as their father's.
And James and Lachlan Murdoch, who are also profiting from the ill gotten gains of Fox News, should not be left out. So long as there is Fox & Friends, Hannity, Judge Whacko Plastic Surgery and the rest of Fox's motley crew, James and Lachlan own that network. Never forget to lay the blame for Fox News in their laps as well as their father's.
7
We need a rating system so viewers know exactly when they are watching fact based reports and exactly when propaganda outlets like Fox are blurring and distorting for their owners like they did for Ailes and Murdoch.
3
“We don’t have a Fox News in France,” said Johan Hufnagel, managing editor of the leftist daily Libération. “There’s no broadcaster with a wide audience and personalities who build this up and try to use it for their own agendas.”
Okay. That settles it. I'm moving to France.
Okay. That settles it. I'm moving to France.
16
You will be welcome in Normandy where you will find cheap venerable and lovely houses with granite walls and slate roofs that can challenge 130 mph winds.
The French are very informed about world affairs and politics. They vote in much higher rates than the US and make themselves aware of the critical issues. Le Pen and the national front have been around for years and are well known for their anti Semitic and racist views. In short, the hack didn't work because the French are smarter than voters in the US and do not wish to hold on to the racist tradition that those in America do with zeal.
42
You read my mind. I was just about to write the same thing.
4
Plus Election Day is a national holiday in France, which it is not in the US. Not declaring Election Day a holiday helps suppress the vote of lower income people and those who work 12 hour shifts.
16
I have to say Europeans are generally much better educated than British and Americans so more likely to vote against something disastrous. This is the third election after Austria and Netherlands that has rejected the far right, although of course Brexit and Trump tell a different story for us Anglos.
26
Sure, Europeans are so well educated they gave us Hitler, Mussolini and Vichy. Maybe you prefer the Lenin and Stalin the Russians gave us.
6
I think he was referring to the Europe of today, Tony, not the Europe of 1939...
13
Those events were 80 to 100 years ago. I would argue that today's Europeans are much much better than their predecessors. In contrast, today's average American is arguably worse than the average American 80 years ago.
The French had the benefit of the US experience and lucky for them- they learned from our mistakes in listening to fake news planted by the Russians.
So, the French, unlike the faithful DT base, can learn and understand reality.
Moreover, the majority of the US voters did indeed did not take the fake bait and did not vote for DT.
Unfortunately for us,, the remnant of the compromise with the slave states- the Electoral College has forced us to not have a true democracy. Luckily, France has no such outdated electoral institution and they elect by majority.
Vive la France! Stay strong. The US people are also staying strong and will eventually rid themselves of the cancer of Trump.
So, the French, unlike the faithful DT base, can learn and understand reality.
Moreover, the majority of the US voters did indeed did not take the fake bait and did not vote for DT.
Unfortunately for us,, the remnant of the compromise with the slave states- the Electoral College has forced us to not have a true democracy. Luckily, France has no such outdated electoral institution and they elect by majority.
Vive la France! Stay strong. The US people are also staying strong and will eventually rid themselves of the cancer of Trump.
36
@Marian:
Actually, I think the Russian active-measures French election sabotage commanders miscalculated. Something went wrong inside their system and their gun misfired. They wikileaked (a new verb in our lexicon) too late. Their tsunami of hacked Macron files, supposedly true information mingled with disinformation, too late to have any impact.
600,000+ pages I think it was. Far too much information to even skim-read in a month, let alone analyze -- forget two days.
Actually, I think the Russian active-measures French election sabotage commanders miscalculated. Something went wrong inside their system and their gun misfired. They wikileaked (a new verb in our lexicon) too late. Their tsunami of hacked Macron files, supposedly true information mingled with disinformation, too late to have any impact.
600,000+ pages I think it was. Far too much information to even skim-read in a month, let alone analyze -- forget two days.
12
"In the United States, reaction to the Macron leaks was more animated, and Hillary Clinton took to Twitter to comment. 'Victory for Macron, for France, the EU, & the world. Defeat to those interfering w/democracy. (But the media says I can’t talk about that).' "
Sure you can Hillary but hopefully your reset button has either been destroyed or at least taken out of your hands by responsible adults. It's already done enough damage to US-Russia relations.
Sure you can Hillary but hopefully your reset button has either been destroyed or at least taken out of your hands by responsible adults. It's already done enough damage to US-Russia relations.
2
France tossed LePen over and this is your take. Lordy
14
I don't understand this French democracy -- apparently over there, it is alright to black out some news. Who decides what news to censor from the people ?
I'm glad we have our first amendment -- I can't believe I'm saying this -- and outlets like Fox news providing us alternate views and ideas.
I'm glad we have our first amendment -- I can't believe I'm saying this -- and outlets like Fox news providing us alternate views and ideas.
4
Yes Fox does give the alternative facts if that is what you want.
8
@Kay Johnson
Would you rather have just NYT ? Would you rather we did not know what Wikileaks revealed ? I dread to dwell in such a one-sided world. Many liberals like that. I don't.
Would you rather have just NYT ? Would you rather we did not know what Wikileaks revealed ? I dread to dwell in such a one-sided world. Many liberals like that. I don't.
4
Bhaskar, you obviously don't understand what happened. There's an oblique reference to free speech here, in other words, no speech for all parties after a certain day/time. There would be little time to rebut, little time to analyze the lies, little time for anything, if these "leaks" were allowed to be dispersed. They were contained, and what did emerge was handled as mere dross. Try stations other than Fox, and get various other opinions. Fox News is simply geared for the Christian trying to get a certain agenda as government policy. I'm happy the French are a secular country, reasonable and rational.
10
Once upon a time there was a nation so profoundly stupid that they considered a man who made his fortune peddling stories about celebrities married to aliens and two-headed sheep to be their most credible source for news.
The fate of that nation has been lost to the sands of time.
--Earth History, 3789 AD.
The fate of that nation has been lost to the sands of time.
--Earth History, 3789 AD.
29
right, the russian "email hacking" interfered with out election so much that it made HRC look like a worse candidate than Trump, yes that's why the russians "interfered"... or could it be that the "interference" was a non issie from the beginning, brought up by the one person who jist thoight it was "her turn"... as the french election shows...the "meddling" amounted to nothing...
4
Maybe it has something to do with the fact that in general, the French are better educated and better informed about current events.
55
There's absolutely no analysis here that would support the claim that the "hacking attack landed with a thud", even though I suspect it did.
And there is nothing in this story whatsoever to indicate whether the hacking did or did not affect the outcome of the election, one way or another.
Absolutely nothing.
It is pure speculation and opinion, and should not have made it past the editors.
If anything, the "hacking" appeared to help Macron, since the results were slightly better than expected according to the polls that were released right before the news blackout, and the "hacking". That, of course, would be pure speculation on my part, with absolutely no basis in fact.
An angle of the story that should have been explored is what percent of the people in France get their news from Facebook. If it is anywhere close to the more than 40% here, then the intention of the hackers may have been to actually exploit the fact that there was a news blackout, except of course on Facebook, where "Fake News", which is not "news" and not a part of the campaign and therefore not subject to the "ban on campaigning and broadcast media coverage of the election" therefore might have had a profound impact by reporting the hacking, since they would have had a monopoly on the "news" for the entire day before the election.
Unless the French government had requested that Facebook block it...
There are many aspects of a compelling story here. Just not the one that the NYT printed.
And there is nothing in this story whatsoever to indicate whether the hacking did or did not affect the outcome of the election, one way or another.
Absolutely nothing.
It is pure speculation and opinion, and should not have made it past the editors.
If anything, the "hacking" appeared to help Macron, since the results were slightly better than expected according to the polls that were released right before the news blackout, and the "hacking". That, of course, would be pure speculation on my part, with absolutely no basis in fact.
An angle of the story that should have been explored is what percent of the people in France get their news from Facebook. If it is anywhere close to the more than 40% here, then the intention of the hackers may have been to actually exploit the fact that there was a news blackout, except of course on Facebook, where "Fake News", which is not "news" and not a part of the campaign and therefore not subject to the "ban on campaigning and broadcast media coverage of the election" therefore might have had a profound impact by reporting the hacking, since they would have had a monopoly on the "news" for the entire day before the election.
Unless the French government had requested that Facebook block it...
There are many aspects of a compelling story here. Just not the one that the NYT printed.
2
@TB:
It's too soon to tell. This happened during the past eighty-four hours. Get back to us with your trenchant analysis and conclusions in another eighty-four days.
It's too soon to tell. This happened during the past eighty-four hours. Get back to us with your trenchant analysis and conclusions in another eighty-four days.
6
@Steve Singer
I have absolutely no idea what your point is.
Fortunately, there's nothing of substance in your comment for me to analyze trenchantly, so you won't have to wait even eighty-four seconds for me to learn you some with my conclusions.
I have absolutely no idea what your point is.
Fortunately, there's nothing of substance in your comment for me to analyze trenchantly, so you won't have to wait even eighty-four seconds for me to learn you some with my conclusions.
1
Does it not occur to anyone that this hacking was actually designed to help Macron? His campaign announces it minutes before a media blackout. That means the news is: "far right Putinist group tries to sabotage French election", a report that is much more likely to hurt Le Pen than Macron. Plus the completely unverifiable statement that along with real emails, fakes were planted by the hackers, insuring that if anything untoward were leaked, they had an out.
Plus, remember, the DNC was hacked during the primaries, and the hacked docs showed a disdain for democracy on the part of the DNC. The hack had nothing to do with the election in November. I, for one, was grateful to know more about the sleazy inner machinations of the DNC.
Plus, remember, the DNC was hacked during the primaries, and the hacked docs showed a disdain for democracy on the part of the DNC. The hack had nothing to do with the election in November. I, for one, was grateful to know more about the sleazy inner machinations of the DNC.
2
No. It wasn't designed to help Macron, nor was it perpetrated by the Macron campaign.
A somewhat analogous situation: shortly after the infamous 16th Street Baptist Church Bombing (Birmingham, Alabama, September 15, 1963) that killed four little girls a white Birmingham police captain dismissed it, declaring "the Negroes did it to themselves to get attention". Your surmise is in that vein.
A somewhat analogous situation: shortly after the infamous 16th Street Baptist Church Bombing (Birmingham, Alabama, September 15, 1963) that killed four little girls a white Birmingham police captain dismissed it, declaring "the Negroes did it to themselves to get attention". Your surmise is in that vein.
14
Longue vie à la France
6
while true, stating that France does not have fox news is misleading on some aspect.
Sure there is no clear media machine with huge captive audience that can be accounted for. But you find a lot of media with precise agenda (for example, and despite me liking their editorial Liberation has strong historical ties to the socialist party). Also when French media switched from mostly state owned to private, a lot of it was captured and concentrated in big groups which is actually one critiques reporter without borders lays on France free press.
as for tabloid culture it does nor exist in the same form as the anglo-saxon form of it (although one could argue that Paris-Match or Voici were really close to this in the late 90s early 2000) but this does not mean that French are not interested in political scandals (some very well renowned papers such as Le canard enchaine literally built their reputation on that)
US and French media are very different beasts I would not dare to judge one better or worse than the other. They have different weaknesses and flaws.
Sure there is no clear media machine with huge captive audience that can be accounted for. But you find a lot of media with precise agenda (for example, and despite me liking their editorial Liberation has strong historical ties to the socialist party). Also when French media switched from mostly state owned to private, a lot of it was captured and concentrated in big groups which is actually one critiques reporter without borders lays on France free press.
as for tabloid culture it does nor exist in the same form as the anglo-saxon form of it (although one could argue that Paris-Match or Voici were really close to this in the late 90s early 2000) but this does not mean that French are not interested in political scandals (some very well renowned papers such as Le canard enchaine literally built their reputation on that)
US and French media are very different beasts I would not dare to judge one better or worse than the other. They have different weaknesses and flaws.
1
Or, could it be that the race was between a man and a woman, and the man won?
3
Oh spare me! The Times, the Wahington Post and the non-fox news networks flogged the WIkiLeaks dumps of Democratic Party emails for weeks, a "false equivalency" play in the face of the bigger ongoing story of the lies and corruption of Trump and his campaign.
46
Well said. I do not remember one media outlet seriously questioning the veracity of the leaks, nor the reasoning of Assange during the campaign. Instead, the opaque and self-serving media flogged the leaks, flogged the polls, flogged Trumps lies and absurdities, flogged the election returns and then AFTER the election flogged ridiculous and insincere Mea Culpas. The important thing to remember about media outlets is that they're just businesses courting larger and larger audiences to snag larger and larger ad revenues. Their "ideology" is money. I wrote for them in the 80s and 90s and watched in horror as the responsibility of the Fourth Estate became Dialing for Dollars.
21
I'm French, and I'm happy that we voted for humanism, reason, openess,optimism and courage to stand on our 2 feet in front of danger. I don't agree with all of Macron's ideas, but at least, he's proposing things that Marine Le Pen did not. She surfed on fear ( legitimate as they are), and I think that is indecent.
We don't need a Trump model in the Elysée. One is enough. Americans can keep him.
We don't need a Trump model in the Elysée. One is enough. Americans can keep him.
149
How does anyone take this story seriously.
If anyone was going to hack Macron why conceivably would they release material just before the election and when a news blackout concerning the election began insuring it would NOT be circulated. But even more preposterous what is the information that was released that is damaging to him. There is none. Not tin The New York Times or anywhere else.
Here is an alternative theory. This entire incident was a set up to make Macron look like he was a victim of nefarious forces out to get him and so all good French men and women should rally around him.
If anyone was going to hack Macron why conceivably would they release material just before the election and when a news blackout concerning the election began insuring it would NOT be circulated. But even more preposterous what is the information that was released that is damaging to him. There is none. Not tin The New York Times or anywhere else.
Here is an alternative theory. This entire incident was a set up to make Macron look like he was a victim of nefarious forces out to get him and so all good French men and women should rally around him.
6
I remember when America didn't have a Fox News either. Those were actually very good and happy days for the nation at large, before political propaganda came to be called news and before for-profit corporations were officially declared to be people.
148
Murdoch outlets should not be banned or blacked out, but covered by other news media as the propaganda outlets that they are. The New York Times has been gloves off with them for too long. We very well may end this year with only Brexit and Trump victorious of all the "populist" causes in the advanced economies - two countries with the strongest Murdoch influence. As for the hacked and released Clinton emails, the campaign should have immediately responded, as Macron did, that the emails contained genuine material intermixed with fakes and then refuse to answer any questions about which was which.
17
Rupert Murdoch's media empire has been a disaster for democracy. The tabloid press in the U.K. has played to the worst anti-foreigner prejudices and racism, and distorted facts or simply published falsehoods before and after Brexit. Fox News spread fake news, e.g. that there would be a criminal indictment against Hillary Clinton before the U.S. election. Its commentators such as O'Reilly and Hannity have been a shameful reminder of what happens when freedom of expression is hijacked by extremists and unscrupulous charlatans. But then Trump himself is a known scam artist (Trump University) and serial liar, but that doesn't deter his followers.
53
France have the same media problems as we do only their parliamentary system allows for more parties than just two like ours (viable ones at least).
5
Unlike Hillary Clinton who had a torrent of baggage she was carrying Macron is reliably new.
Maybe that had something to do with the defeat of Hillary Clinton. Two are not comparable.
Maybe that had something to do with the defeat of Hillary Clinton. Two are not comparable.
3
I disagree - a key to Macron's success is a mature public and the lack of a Fox/Fake News culture.
23
As
As I watched the French returns yesterday, I was struck by the number of people on the street speaking about judging policy, not personality and those admitting that while not huge Macron supporters, they were unwilling to succumb to a dictator. Too bad Americans were not not as logical.
As I watched the French returns yesterday, I was struck by the number of people on the street speaking about judging policy, not personality and those admitting that while not huge Macron supporters, they were unwilling to succumb to a dictator. Too bad Americans were not not as logical.
85
Or as intelligent.
16
Perhaps the French had heard of the dirty tricks in the US and decided to not be scammed as we were.
35
Anyone with an ounce of common sense knew what America would suffer years before Trump was elected.
10
When are they going to take their head out of the sand and admit Hillary Clinton was a terrible candidate and last minute emails had little or nothing to do with her defeat.
they revealed nothing new that every one already knew that she gave speeches and got paid a lot for them etc etc etc.
they revealed nothing new that every one already knew that she gave speeches and got paid a lot for them etc etc etc.
6
HRC was not a good candidate no doubt. But she was a far better candidate then Trump. 102,629 votes across 3 states was how close it was.. Clinton made mistakes in campaigning. GOP media wing has spent last 5 years trying to create misleading news about HRC, holding fake meaningless hearings to smear her.
Ever wonder why Trump won't ask DoJ to investigate her? Files charges? Because you have to able to prove accusations in court with evidence.. GOP have had exactly zero evidence against HRC.
The Trump train is always in danger of derailing let's just hope he doesn't hurt to many innocent people b4 it does .
Ever wonder why Trump won't ask DoJ to investigate her? Files charges? Because you have to able to prove accusations in court with evidence.. GOP have had exactly zero evidence against HRC.
The Trump train is always in danger of derailing let's just hope he doesn't hurt to many innocent people b4 it does .
16
Jon, well said, but GOP stalking HRC for 5 years?
More like 25 years.
More like 25 years.
6
I guess the French are less gullible than us.
29
Fox News should be allowed to call itself news. They are pox on American and British democracy. The Murdoch family is loathsome.
22
Imagine a country with no fox news, no breitbart, no coulter, no gingrich et al .... sound like a nice civilized country to live in. Where do I sign?
111
these businesses exist solely to brainwash people into voting against their own interests... feeding on people's anger and prejudice.... how else can we explain people who need healthcare voting to repeal it?
16
Soon they will run out of people they can brainwash because with the new health plan, no health plan, these folks will surely be dead.
7
Just what the British said about the Federalist Papers and Mr. Zenger.
3
Because the people in France have more common sense?
20
This is a completely false equivalency.
La Pen did not have one of the only two parties backing her like our system.
In a parliamentary system she still got 35% even after all major parties backed her opponent, even the more conservative ones.
This is definitely not a defeat of La Pen and the snake is not dead. It has only grown from nothing to the principal opposition party in France in this election.
NYT are hanging their caps too quickly and too soon. This has not ended yet.
La Pen did not have one of the only two parties backing her like our system.
In a parliamentary system she still got 35% even after all major parties backed her opponent, even the more conservative ones.
This is definitely not a defeat of La Pen and the snake is not dead. It has only grown from nothing to the principal opposition party in France in this election.
NYT are hanging their caps too quickly and too soon. This has not ended yet.
4
Actually I believe that the Socialist candidate did not back Macron. Also, the Americans continued to run under the dubious aegis of the two major parties as though the U.S. two party system is a commandment from God. Saunders is a Socialist who hopped on the Dem bandwagon and Trump has no discernible party interest, other than that of his own self-interest. Bravo for the French in rising above the outmoded US style of crumbling partisanship. It's a start for them and I wish them well.
7
True.
Traditional left and right party members are too submerged by their big egos.
Marine and Macron proposed 2 different systems. Marine's was too similar to Trump's and that is not what the French want; we have already seen what kind of disaster this was and still is. being protectionnists and full of fear does not define who we are, despite all the hurdles on our path.
Traditional left and right party members are too submerged by their big egos.
Marine and Macron proposed 2 different systems. Marine's was too similar to Trump's and that is not what the French want; we have already seen what kind of disaster this was and still is. being protectionnists and full of fear does not define who we are, despite all the hurdles on our path.
12
Perhaps because Macron has not been subjected to a 25-year smear campaign.
46
yep, that's what made him so brilliant
Macron is popular in France and much more of a centrist (populist) figure, than Hillary Clinton is here in the U.S. Her negatives (especially trustworthiness) were through the roof. And even though she and Macron both ran against candidates that were "coco for cocoa puffs," she couldn't right the ship. So this isn't a fair comparison.
4
I would not say that Macron is so popular in France. Almost 2 years ago, he issued a working law that pushed every worker in the streets for several weeks.
But there is one thing people do not want before anything: it is to be governed by a bunch of fascists
But there is one thing people do not want before anything: it is to be governed by a bunch of fascists
22
Although the author didn't acknowledge it, the article points out why the Macron hack didn't have any effect. "...it appears the attack turned up mostly mundane documents." Unlike Macron, the Clinton hack revealed lots of negative information about Clinton and her campaign staff.
8
Yes. We should be like France. Diversity of opinion and the First Amendment are clearly failed policies.
4
France has the equivalent of Freedom of the Press and Freedom of Speech. Nothing is stopping someone like Bill O'Reilly from getting on French TV and blaming all of the world's problems on brown immigrants, except for the fact that the majority of French people would find that disgusting and the show would tank. That's the difference between France and us, not their rights.
48
Of course, your statement ignores the fact that 1/3 of the French electorate just got up off the couch and voted for just such a person (similar to the US).
Why Hackers Failed to Sway the French Vote for President?
Two reasons:
1) They don't have a 24/7 toxic propaganda machine called FIX News
2) They read and study history.
Two reasons:
1) They don't have a 24/7 toxic propaganda machine called FIX News
2) They read and study history.
56
The equivalent of Fox News? Good grief - the NY Times and the Washington Post also beat the HRC email story to death. I invite you to take some responsibility please.
61
The Far Right fringe encourages its adherents to believe what they want to believe even when it flies in the face of all common sense or even all facts to the contrary.
3
I still don't understand why bringing back the Fairness Doctrine is not a priority issue for reasonable Americans.
18
In earlier years, I would have said that the support shown by Americans for media blackouts is unsettling; but now that such support for squelching disfavored media coverage is increasingly commonplace, particularly among those on the Left ("liberal" no longer seems appropriate), it's also becoming increasingly settled in my psyche. Not approved, mind you, but settled — that same numbing process that I imagine affects all citizens-turned-subjects whose situation is the result of the gradualness peculiar to the petit despotism of modern politics.
Question: Why not enforce a media blackout for the duration of a presidential campaign? Despite the work of our glorified hall monitors ("fact-checkers"), our news media continue to publish and broadcast information that is poorly vetted, inaccurate, primed, and framed. Forget that the Washington Post derailed and never recovered from Donald Trump's campaign and successful election, even the New York Times has had its writers entertain the idea of blatantly inserting framing language into its non-editorial stories on the basis that Trump represents a uniquely dangerous figure. Now, refresh my memory: Is the observation that a person is "uniquely dangerous" susceptible of empirical demonstration, free of all subjective input, or not?
In the end, the real danger to popular government will prove to be the self-anointed, self-congratulatory, and self-righteous media chaperons who claim to protect us. Yet: Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Question: Why not enforce a media blackout for the duration of a presidential campaign? Despite the work of our glorified hall monitors ("fact-checkers"), our news media continue to publish and broadcast information that is poorly vetted, inaccurate, primed, and framed. Forget that the Washington Post derailed and never recovered from Donald Trump's campaign and successful election, even the New York Times has had its writers entertain the idea of blatantly inserting framing language into its non-editorial stories on the basis that Trump represents a uniquely dangerous figure. Now, refresh my memory: Is the observation that a person is "uniquely dangerous" susceptible of empirical demonstration, free of all subjective input, or not?
In the end, the real danger to popular government will prove to be the self-anointed, self-congratulatory, and self-righteous media chaperons who claim to protect us. Yet: Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
2
Is that 'Who shall guard the guardians'?
However imperfect, I will take NYT and The Washington Post. I grant you that there is some merit in the charge that they have to sell 'newspapers' and may grab attention with lurid headlines, but that is not at all the same as selling blatant debunked falsehoods like the purveyors of hate that abound in this country.
However imperfect, I will take NYT and The Washington Post. I grant you that there is some merit in the charge that they have to sell 'newspapers' and may grab attention with lurid headlines, but that is not at all the same as selling blatant debunked falsehoods like the purveyors of hate that abound in this country.
3
Christopher,
I have the same distaste for "lurid headlines" and "debunked falsehoods" as do you; though I suspect my distaste inclines more in the direction of such violations committed by the Left (e.g., claiming that the etiology and nature of transgenderism has been scientifically substantiated; portraying conservative thinkers, including those as innocuous as Jordan Peterson, as "hateful bigots"; and so on). The point of my O.P., however, had nothing to do with personal preference but rather with the unsettling willingness of both the mainstream media and their partisan readership to censor altogether information they find displeasing, and then to have the gall to claim that they are doing so for the purpose of safeguarding democracy.
To quote one of America's foremost hateful bigots who also happens to be one of the many reincarnations of Adolf Hitler: Only the weakest ideas need to be protected from scrutiny in a free and open society.
I have the same distaste for "lurid headlines" and "debunked falsehoods" as do you; though I suspect my distaste inclines more in the direction of such violations committed by the Left (e.g., claiming that the etiology and nature of transgenderism has been scientifically substantiated; portraying conservative thinkers, including those as innocuous as Jordan Peterson, as "hateful bigots"; and so on). The point of my O.P., however, had nothing to do with personal preference but rather with the unsettling willingness of both the mainstream media and their partisan readership to censor altogether information they find displeasing, and then to have the gall to claim that they are doing so for the purpose of safeguarding democracy.
To quote one of America's foremost hateful bigots who also happens to be one of the many reincarnations of Adolf Hitler: Only the weakest ideas need to be protected from scrutiny in a free and open society.
1
Wow, thanks for disseminating that for me.
Steve Bannon, Robert Mercer via Cambridge Analytica failed to take into account the French media blackout.
22
Perhaps we are finally learning that illegally accessed and private communications, gained via hacking, should not be consumed. There is something unethical about the transmission of these stolen thoughts.
4
They don't have Fox. But they have a media that is responsible and decided not to report on the emails until after the election.
7
The Republicans of Fox News long ago decided that any enemy of Democrat was a friend of theirs. Look at Trump and how he loves Putin of Russia and Duterte of the Philippines.
Russia's actions in the USA are viewed by the Republican party as an act of friendship, not an act of tampering. It is something they applaud and call for.
The same is not true of French politics.
Russia's actions in the USA are viewed by the Republican party as an act of friendship, not an act of tampering. It is something they applaud and call for.
The same is not true of French politics.
12
Please, tell us again, why is Ruppert Murdoch allowed to operate television and cable stations that spew right wing propaganda and conspiracy theories with reckless abandon in the United States?
Shouldn't the FCC be a little more concerned with Fake News -- at least as much as wardrobe failures and Stephen Colbert's off color jokes? They should probably be a little more concerned about the former -- look where looking the other way on that stuff got us this time.
Now that there is acid test proof of the debasing of our collective intellect via Faux News, perhaps they will look a little closer.
Shouldn't the FCC be a little more concerned with Fake News -- at least as much as wardrobe failures and Stephen Colbert's off color jokes? They should probably be a little more concerned about the former -- look where looking the other way on that stuff got us this time.
Now that there is acid test proof of the debasing of our collective intellect via Faux News, perhaps they will look a little closer.
34
Whether the FCC should be more concerned with Fake News or not, there is not the SLIGHTEST chance that false news will be reigned in or dealt with in any way as long as 45 is in office.
As he and his entire swamp of an administration, and the republican party at large have repeatedly demonstrated, the truth is their enemy.
As he and his entire swamp of an administration, and the republican party at large have repeatedly demonstrated, the truth is their enemy.
In the first round of the French election the vote was split 4 ways: unrealistic but honourable left (combined with a weak version in Hamon). facists, conservative catholic right wing (who have a weak coalition with center right) and Macron (who trawls left and right from the center). The conservative right was probably going to win, France is an intensively conservative country (whether right or left), but fortunately the candidate was embroiled in a scandal which instead of being contrite about he stuck on 'a political conspiracy'. This was such a huge sign of a complete disconnection from reality that even a large part of the conservative right in France could not stomach it. On the left the vote was split between the idelistic left and the somewhat less but almost as idealistic left with a nice candidate. This stuffed the chances of Melenchon (who was annoyed and decided to be coy about who he was going to vote for in the second round). Le Pen was on a ride, carried by smarter people behind her, but she is her father's daughter and in the end her insanity came out in the debate. Macron sails though.
Not really a victory against facism until the last round.
Not really a victory against facism until the last round.
2
Marine couldn't stand the pressure during the debate. She tried the Trump's method: being rude, irrespectful, with an appalling void in lieu of propositions, visions etc. that did not work for most of us. When she completely blew up the fuses, I felt sorry and embarrassed for her, something must have disconnected in her brain: what was THAT? there was no way I could vote for this woman, even if I had the slightest doubt.
10
I have watched many debates with Marine Le Pen and she always comes across as a rabid animal. She uses dirty tactics, goes for the jugular with scurrilous reports, diverts attention from the question she has been asked. She must have an army of private eyes and informers and spies collecting data on every aspect, to the minutest detail, of other's lives - a veritable Edgar Hoover à la France and definitely made in the same mold as Trump.
The difference just might be that the French have more time to follow the election campaigns because they don't work all the time and don't have to worry about healthcare, vacation time, or child care. Maybe it's because French elections aren't money making opportunities for media outlets, and they limit their campaigns. Certainly, the misinformation from Fox News over the past man years is not a factor in France. Or maybe it's simply that the French people as a whole are smarter and less gullible than the American people as a whole.
25
The first part of your comment is wrong all the way. Even if that displeases you to know this, many people work long hours, and sometimes longer than in the US; starting at 8 or 9 am and finishing our work at 7 or 8 pm is not uncommon, especially in the private sector.
However, what gets the commoner that we are interested in the elections is that, contrary to the US electoral process, one voice = one vote. we share responsibility about who we chose to be our president.
Yes, we are certainly less gullible than Americans, but to put things in perspective, things we observed in the US under the Trump presidency were not very appealing, to say the least. Those 100 days were not enbcouraging us to vote for his french female counterpart
However, what gets the commoner that we are interested in the elections is that, contrary to the US electoral process, one voice = one vote. we share responsibility about who we chose to be our president.
Yes, we are certainly less gullible than Americans, but to put things in perspective, things we observed in the US under the Trump presidency were not very appealing, to say the least. Those 100 days were not enbcouraging us to vote for his french female counterpart
5
Because they have a news blackout period which greatly reduced the spread of the infection. This is not possible here b/c of First Amendment protections. But also they have a much shorter time between the final two rounds of elections, and, of course, they turned out to vote and were guided by our Hindenburg-esque electoral fiasco.
17
Perhaps the French are just smarter than Americans.
68
They have responsible laws, media coverage and a thoughtful voter pool. Not a side-show and three ring circus of opportunists and snake oil salesmen hawking slogans and smears for months on end. There are consequences, as we can clearly see.
69
And no gerrymandering, voter suppression and electoral college distortion weighing some voters' votes multiples of others and destroying democracy.
Imagine. France lacks the equivalent of a Fox News (or "Faux News", as some disdainfully call it).
Or a News Max. Or a Drudge Report. Or a Washington Times.
Or a Rush Limbaugh, Bill O'Reilly, Mark Levin, Sean Hannity, Erik Erickson, Glenn Beck, Mike Savage, Anne Coulter, Laura Ingraham, Alex Jones, Joe Walsh, Ted Nugent et al, pundits spewing acidic, hate-filled quasi-racist bile and "left-wing" conspiracy theories of all kinds. Acid slowly dissolving the foundations of comity and consensus in our nation; eating it away. And doing it for ratings (and, therefore, money) every day. Paid to do it, every day. Paid very well.
No Murdoch. No Ailes.
What a blessing.
Or a News Max. Or a Drudge Report. Or a Washington Times.
Or a Rush Limbaugh, Bill O'Reilly, Mark Levin, Sean Hannity, Erik Erickson, Glenn Beck, Mike Savage, Anne Coulter, Laura Ingraham, Alex Jones, Joe Walsh, Ted Nugent et al, pundits spewing acidic, hate-filled quasi-racist bile and "left-wing" conspiracy theories of all kinds. Acid slowly dissolving the foundations of comity and consensus in our nation; eating it away. And doing it for ratings (and, therefore, money) every day. Paid to do it, every day. Paid very well.
No Murdoch. No Ailes.
What a blessing.
234
Steve--Their society is ancient. They are, no doubt, more mature than we are, and just would not put up with such foolishness. Maybe it's in the genes of the French. All I know is I'm relieved that they seem to have made a better choice than we did. I hope it works out well for them.
5
@ChesBay:
I lived in France off-&-on, Paris mostly, for ten years; maybe even longer. I don't know how the I-Net has impacted their recent election, nor do I pretend to understand how their public cable mass-media system or situation works because I haven't been back in nearly seven years; an eternity in terms of all that, the I-Net's evolution especially.
But I think their media lacks the mercenary rabble-rousers, the no-holds-barred, no-lie-too-vile-to-tell gold-diggers, crusaders for ratings and (therefore) personal income and fame that curses ours; and sicken our country because too many people believe their lies, and take them seriously.
I lived in France off-&-on, Paris mostly, for ten years; maybe even longer. I don't know how the I-Net has impacted their recent election, nor do I pretend to understand how their public cable mass-media system or situation works because I haven't been back in nearly seven years; an eternity in terms of all that, the I-Net's evolution especially.
But I think their media lacks the mercenary rabble-rousers, the no-holds-barred, no-lie-too-vile-to-tell gold-diggers, crusaders for ratings and (therefore) personal income and fame that curses ours; and sicken our country because too many people believe their lies, and take them seriously.
8
as a french citizen, I would tend to think that there are media prone to bias; like everywhere else, but we do not systematically trust every media, if their stories are not recouped. that does not mean they do not lean one way or another. That does not mean we do not fall prey to made up stories sometimes.
But there is an ethic among serious journalists and they try their best to provide with truthful information. Investigation is very important, if we want to believe them.
But there is an ethic among serious journalists and they try their best to provide with truthful information. Investigation is very important, if we want to believe them.
3
Maybe the US election results did not depend on those hacks. The only hacks who affected the election were those who ran the Clinton campaign.
10
And yet our new President encouraged Vladimir Putin to continue his directed hacks of the Democrats. Guess he thought the emails mattered, huh?
13
Perhaps the election slogan having the most traction was "ne vous Trumpez pas."
16
No Fox? No "fair and balanced"? No "fake news", or what our "Fool in Charge" president calls "news". Viva La France!
78
Or is it because Macron's emails contained nothing while Podesta's containd subversion of democracy.
Or is it because Macron did not have any prior on private servers while that was not the case over here.
Balanced reporting is missing.
Thinking voters as a whole are stupid over here (or in France) is a stupid thought in the first place. Individuals can be stupid, aggregates almost never are.
Or is it because Macron did not have any prior on private servers while that was not the case over here.
Balanced reporting is missing.
Thinking voters as a whole are stupid over here (or in France) is a stupid thought in the first place. Individuals can be stupid, aggregates almost never are.
3
"Aggregates almost never are"?
I'd say 10,000 years of written human history proves quite the opposite.
I'd say 10,000 years of written human history proves quite the opposite.
3
It's not a question of stupidity, it's a question of information. The US has become as ideological a space as the old Soviet Union. Gripes about Podesta and the "subversion of democracy" have the ring of a Stalinist purge.
2
Maybe most French voters are not as dumb as Americans.
140
You beat me to it.
11
That's more like it!!!
2
Americans claim to be informed while getting their information from dubious sources. How do I know this? I heard the same line... Putin isn't such a bad guy… and... what about Pizza Gate?... from potential voters on the campaign trail in Arizona, California and Missouri. Misinformed American Voters are a pox on democracy.
1
Pls read ths Guardian-article. It makes you sick to the stomach.
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/may/07/the-great-british-bre...
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/may/07/the-great-british-bre...
5
Yes, it's very troubling. Is British journalism always this good? When I think of British journalism I think of tabloids.
1
The London Times? The Independent? The Guardian? et al? Or, do you read the Daily Mail and think that is London journalism?
Well, the Daily Mail and The Sun are the most popular and have the largest circulation numbers. These papers were the main engines of the Brexit vote.
It's amazing that a country would take tabloids, with semi-naked women on the front pages, seriously.
It's amazing that a country would take tabloids, with semi-naked women on the front pages, seriously.
Of course, in its infinite stupidity Social Media does not care what the content is, or even whether there is any content. That there has been a hack and a dump must cause frenzy because, well, its a learned meme. Hack = attack. The evil attackers mean harm to the victim and democracy. Therefore, rush to the victim's support. In this case it's enough to make you wonder about the source.
Why would anyone wait until 11:59 to dump? Because they have no content, and know or hope that content is irrelevant.
So many posts that "French learned from our mistake." What was the *content* of emails that doomed HRC? There never was any.
It's now all about learned memes, and the anticipation of anticipation, by people who know little else.
Why would anyone wait until 11:59 to dump? Because they have no content, and know or hope that content is irrelevant.
So many posts that "French learned from our mistake." What was the *content* of emails that doomed HRC? There never was any.
It's now all about learned memes, and the anticipation of anticipation, by people who know little else.
2
The lack of a Fox news type entity in France is a priceless fact for that country. Nothing has contributed to the dumbing down of the United States as much as Fox and all the right wing media that has flourished since the 90's.
293
Media blackout, voting on Sunday, decent turnout (low for them), paper ballots counted quickly. Imagine living in a country where voting is taken seriously.
619
I'm pretty sure you have to bring your voter registration card and "ID" to vote in France too. Imagine living in a country that requires ID to vote?
1
Let's vote on Saturday and Sunday. That respects all those who carry religious restrictions, gives working people time to use the polls, and allows for responses to unexpectedly long lines at some voting stations. A period of news blackouts beforehand sounds like a wonderful idea.
If I understand the history, Tuesday was once market day for the rural people to come to town, so it was chosen as the polling day. Of course that's obsolete now.
If I understand the history, Tuesday was once market day for the rural people to come to town, so it was chosen as the polling day. Of course that's obsolete now.
Sadly, one can only imagine what turnout would be like in the U.S. if elections were on weekends and you had to do this 'twice'.
Watching Trump in action should immunize any person with a brain used for critical thinking against voting for anyone that can be remotely connected to him. The defeat of Le Pen should put to rest the notion that Trump's election is the vanguard of things to come. His election was a gross mistake and it will take a great deal of time and effort to fix the damage. The damage will not be permanent as long as the majority that rejects him remain united in opposition and politically engaged.
99
Maybe the biggest factor is that the French refuse to base political decisions on fear. They also refuse to live in fear. In this country the Republican party has campaigned on fear for more than four decades and relies on gerrymandering and voter suppression (more than 70% of eligible voters cast ballots in Sunday's election) to give fearful voters an edge.
95
The French also have a remaining collective memory of WWII occupation. They know what oppression is; they know what a demagogue looks like and what a demagogue can do. If nothing else, that would have defeated Le Pen dragging her father's baggage behind her.
1
Any democratic state should now bar Rupert Murdoch from owning any of its media. A media company should have to prove that it has used its power responsibly before gaining more.
108
Besides being better educated (and dare I say - smarter?) thanks to a superior education system, France never had a Reagan who killed the Fairness in Media Act which prevented media from deliberately lying to the US public, nor did they have a Bill Clinton who deregulated the media industry through the Telecommunications Act so they could form monopolies.
178
This is at the absolute heart of the problem! I don't think we will ever put those genies back in their bottles.
The French learned from our mistakes, which is more than we do.
47
No Fox News, no Hannity, no O’Reilly, 44 hour clamp on campaigning and broadcast media coverage prior to election, vote on Sunday, not Tuesday, government admonishes media for false news, no tabloids culture.
And I was worried about Macron not getting elected. Heck if we had those criteria in the U.S. Hillary Clinton would have won by a landslide.
And I was worried about Macron not getting elected. Heck if we had those criteria in the U.S. Hillary Clinton would have won by a landslide.
26
Other reasons:
1. No French Comey counterpart.
2. Macron is male and therefore, by default, more likeable.
3. The establishment right endorsed Macron.
4. The plight of America after Trump.
1. No French Comey counterpart.
2. Macron is male and therefore, by default, more likeable.
3. The establishment right endorsed Macron.
4. The plight of America after Trump.
19
British citizens: don't let the Murdoch s buy sky news. Look what rightwing news outlets have done to the US and look at how lucky France is without them!
40
So the French supress anything right of center in the media and fail to report anything that might sully center left or far left messaging. And of course nothing left of center could possibly be fake. Wow, what a country. And let's be clear, there is zero hard evidence that FoxNews had any effect on the outcome of the election in this country. If there is, then I would like to know it. (And I don't even like FoxNews, nor did I vote for Trump). All the left-leaning media outlets in this country reported ad nauseum on the hacking and email issues so there was ample opportunity for opposition to any right-leaning messaging as a balance. The left, including and especially Clinton and her campaign, just flat failed to get the job done. Now we are all paying for it, "Big Time," as the president would say. What a country.
2
Just to be factual: 1 of the 2 biggest newspapers in France is conservative (Le Figaro) and they do not suppress anything right of center, they suppress unverified info in the hours leading to the election (that law would have protected LePen, would the leak had been affecting her re. her emails for ex.)
9
Where on earth did you read that "the French supress [it's "suppress", by the way] anything right of center in the media"? Or did you hear it on Fox News perhaps? (the same channel that, in the wake of the November 2015 attacks, once showed a map of Paris with whole swaths of the city marked as Muslim-held police "no-go" areas, including some of the city's most affluent neighborhoods -- we got a good chuckle out of that one)
What the article means when it says there is no equivalent to Fox News in France (whether on the right or the left) is that we don't have any TV channel with a huge viewership that engages in round-the-clock propagation of clearly biased commentary and alternative facts -- not that anybody's viewpoint is being suppressed.
What the article means when it says there is no equivalent to Fox News in France (whether on the right or the left) is that we don't have any TV channel with a huge viewership that engages in round-the-clock propagation of clearly biased commentary and alternative facts -- not that anybody's viewpoint is being suppressed.
9
BFM-TV is turning into a Fox News-like channel and I am glad the law forbids them from turning French elections into the reality TV sitcom that US elections have become.
If they could have, they would have just spent the weekend doing headline over headline on whatever minor and pointless detail they could find in the email trove.
If they could have, they would have just spent the weekend doing headline over headline on whatever minor and pointless detail they could find in the email trove.
10
The hack failed mainly because of the solid anti- Le Pen vote of the traditional parties that boosted Macron in the second round.
1
British tabloids have an abysmal record as purveyors of 'jingoism', one of the more lamentable outcroppings of patriotism, which pre-dates even the World War I era; American alt-right news outlets, with their equally brazen disregard for truth and their penchant for fake political conspiracies, have shown an equal aversion to journalistic standards which both facilitated Brexit and the unprecedented rise of a guy like Trump to the US presidency. However, neither the presence of the 'Fleetstreet' tabloids of London nor FOX News and its more sinister right-wing affiliates in this country alone can explain why US and British voters compared to, say, the French electorate are still in such large numbers susceptible to fake news and its lures of easy fixes to complicated issues - it must needs have to do with an elevated level of political understanding and civil expertise that separates the French from its more gullible counterparts in the Anglo-Saxon world.
16
Yes, anglo saxon politics. But even if the Brits have tabloids, their politics is still not as sponsored and paid for by big money as US. After all they still have their universal national health care since the 1940s, which we can't even achieve yet. They may cut, but they don't try to destroy it, like our Gop is doing to ACA.
2
I wonder what would have happend if a non-us liberal group would have promoted a similar attack against us politicians?
Direct demand be delivered to cia?
Attac against their country, it's political leader?
Direct demand be delivered to cia?
Attac against their country, it's political leader?
France's final round of the presidential campaign lasted less than a month. Our campaigns grind on for two years, leaving ample time for mischief and lying. Russia had a much smaller window with France. The seeds didn't have time to grow.
394
@Ker,
Yes, the "perpetual campaign" is one source of our undoing.
The UK has a similar short election window, as does Japan if I'm not mistaken.
Americans are exhausted by it; burned out and bummed out. Even so, the carnival will start again in just eighteen months. Trump is already running for re-election, pandering to the same 80,000 voters in a few key states that put him over the top, delivered the American presidency to him in 2016. And I just read that Sen. Cory Booker is already "exploring" a run for the White House in 2020 (how does one "explore" something like that?).
It brings to mind the title of a famous play, "Noises Off". I wish somebody would just yell "noises off!" so the din and roar inside the political theater are killed, to let us breathe a little. "Noises off!", and "unplug the Bubble Machine!". Lawrence Welk's famous Bubble Machine.
The corpse of 2016 isn't even cold and they're already back at it again. All the Little Hopefuls and Wannabees.
Yes, the "perpetual campaign" is one source of our undoing.
The UK has a similar short election window, as does Japan if I'm not mistaken.
Americans are exhausted by it; burned out and bummed out. Even so, the carnival will start again in just eighteen months. Trump is already running for re-election, pandering to the same 80,000 voters in a few key states that put him over the top, delivered the American presidency to him in 2016. And I just read that Sen. Cory Booker is already "exploring" a run for the White House in 2020 (how does one "explore" something like that?).
It brings to mind the title of a famous play, "Noises Off". I wish somebody would just yell "noises off!" so the din and roar inside the political theater are killed, to let us breathe a little. "Noises off!", and "unplug the Bubble Machine!". Lawrence Welk's famous Bubble Machine.
The corpse of 2016 isn't even cold and they're already back at it again. All the Little Hopefuls and Wannabees.
5
We should do the same for our elections. Plenty of time to spell out what a candidate stands for. Of course, so much money to be made with a long campaign so will never happen!
3
Our overly prolonged campaigns give ample time for billions in campaign funds to be transferred from the super rich to the candidates who will give them the best return on their investment with laws in their favor. The US has the most expensive election campaigns on the planet. Maybe even the universe!
1
I think a lot of credit has to go to the French people as well. Just because we have Fox News doesn't give people an excuse for being stupid.
193
yeah but they are..... and i think they are due some benevolence from our media and the politicians.
"the [election-tampering] fallout was contained, partly a news blackout, and partly because France lacks an equivalent to Fox News"?
What does THAT tell us about the state of the (faux) "news" and the cancerous influence of Fox (aka Murdoch) on the US body politic? (and maybe also in the UK too?)
Is the USA capable from learning from France, with its working democracy?
Vive la France!!!
What does THAT tell us about the state of the (faux) "news" and the cancerous influence of Fox (aka Murdoch) on the US body politic? (and maybe also in the UK too?)
Is the USA capable from learning from France, with its working democracy?
Vive la France!!!
26
Will we learn from this? Do we care enough?
5
I wonder if communications through social media also alerted the French to what Russia was doing. Many French people living in the US might have communicated with relatives and friends living in France who at that point had no access to news reports.
5
"The National Front does not have the equivalent of a Bill O’Reilly or a Sean Hannity, the right-wing commentators who helped shore up Donald J. Trump’s presidential bid."
To that, I'd like to add, it also does not have the American "Christian" Evangelists.
To that, I'd like to add, it also does not have the American "Christian" Evangelists.
248
True. The French are almost all Catholic, but not overly religious. When visiting a French friend near the Spanish border several years ago, on Palm Sunday we saw Spaniards walking with palm fronds across the way. Our friend said: "The French and Spanish are both Catholic. The difference is the Spanish really believe."
5
So what you are also saying is that without a Fox News in France, there is no media representation of the other side of the argument, and that only liberal opinions are deemed newsworthy; akin to the stifling of counter opinions on today's college campuses. And this is better, how?
29
This is better because:
1. Most of the news on Fox is false and misleading propaganda.
2. The other side of the argument is ALWAYS given 50% representation in mainstream media, even when undeserved.
3. The liberal side of the argument is NEVER given 50% representation on Fox.
3. There are other, more serious, conservative media outlets in France.
1. Most of the news on Fox is false and misleading propaganda.
2. The other side of the argument is ALWAYS given 50% representation in mainstream media, even when undeserved.
3. The liberal side of the argument is NEVER given 50% representation on Fox.
3. There are other, more serious, conservative media outlets in France.
44
Ed,
did you read the end of the story? "neither he nor other so-called neo-reactionary commentators endorsed the far-right party".
France has media that represents the "other side". .What their rightist media does not do is lie, repeat innuendo, and defend the absolute disgusting behavior of a Trump because he nominate a Neil Gorsuch.
I'm not a Republican. I believe they are regressive and heartless, and serve only the 1%. I think they win by cheating --voter suppression, lying, racism, and fear mongering. However, I support a free press even a propaganda outfit like FOX. My hope is that people will objectively evaluate their reporting. As our election and the French election prove, Americans got snookered and the French avoided potential trouble.
did you read the end of the story? "neither he nor other so-called neo-reactionary commentators endorsed the far-right party".
France has media that represents the "other side". .What their rightist media does not do is lie, repeat innuendo, and defend the absolute disgusting behavior of a Trump because he nominate a Neil Gorsuch.
I'm not a Republican. I believe they are regressive and heartless, and serve only the 1%. I think they win by cheating --voter suppression, lying, racism, and fear mongering. However, I support a free press even a propaganda outfit like FOX. My hope is that people will objectively evaluate their reporting. As our election and the French election prove, Americans got snookered and the French avoided potential trouble.
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The very influential Figaro (1 of the 2 biggest newspapers) is conservative.
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Face it. The French electorate is just smarter than the ours much more engaged.
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what percentage voted?
the latest i saw was that 2/3 of the electorate voted..... not great but way ahead of the 50% we usually get in the US.
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Per reports: 70%.
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The answer to this question is simple. The French do not have the same problem with inbred trailer trash we do here in so many of the Red States. When we look closely at those who voted Trump in ....as one Network showed on a documentary....they called him "Big Daddy" while smoking a cigarette and drinking a beer". France does not have this type of citizen.
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The right wing together with the right wing media complex (Fox, Rush, etc.), operates like an infectious microbe that commandeer its host by hijacking the host's immune system. A democracy is based on informed consent of the governed, so hijacking the information system with a partisan fake news operation hijacks our government. The key question is: how do we stop this deadly organism before it kills us?
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The infection analogy is an exellent one. How can we stop this deadly organism of rw media that's making our democracy feeble and ineffective? Problem is, there's no profit in finding an antidote , but there's plenty of profit in the infection.
Profits of big media, aligned with profits engineered by big donor election campaigns are attacking our political immune system. This weakens the ability of the US public to think, to tell truth from propaganda, to even desire objectivity instead of emotion.
That's what enabled the Trump takeover--- exploiting a weakened body politic.
Other countries that once admired us, now pity us, and see us as a warning.
Profits of big media, aligned with profits engineered by big donor election campaigns are attacking our political immune system. This weakens the ability of the US public to think, to tell truth from propaganda, to even desire objectivity instead of emotion.
That's what enabled the Trump takeover--- exploiting a weakened body politic.
Other countries that once admired us, now pity us, and see us as a warning.
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Perhaps the French are just smarter than we are...
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Smart enough to have a decent healthcare system! One of the best as well.
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Perhaps they have just made you think they are or you are projecting for all of us when you really think that you just are not as smart as them? I gets complicated, huh?
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you got that right
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'Cause they've been watching over here, and are smarter?
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The hack in the French elections was primarily derailed by the French watching the US equivalent of Le Penn in our chronic lies, unconstitutional Executive Orders from our own POTUS.
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Why? Maybe also because they learned from us. And please don't give them any ideas about creating LeFox Émission de nouvelles télévisées.
Macron soundly defeated Le Pen based on the merits. 32.2 percentage points between them. With that margin their need not be too much introspection on why the hacking did not work. The French, in one very loud, firm, proud voice collectively said "Nous refusons, nous rejetons Le Pen". Please pardon my French.
Macron soundly defeated Le Pen based on the merits. 32.2 percentage points between them. With that margin their need not be too much introspection on why the hacking did not work. The French, in one very loud, firm, proud voice collectively said "Nous refusons, nous rejetons Le Pen". Please pardon my French.
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What he (I, in this case) said! But 30% or so, is way too much , And besides, it will help fill parliament with ultra right Le Pen types
Yep. Hackers steal damaging emails from senior Democrats. Then stories based on this hacked information appear on Twitter and Facebook, posted by thousands of automated "bots", then on Russia's English-language outlets, RT and Sputnik, and right-wing US "news" sites such as Infowars, Breitbart, FOX News. Russia then downloads the online voter rolls for political advertising "micro-targeting" using email, Facebook and Twitter messages tailored precisely for individual voters." And FOX, ever the echo chamber through the likes of O'Reilly (and his ick) ratchet up the lies, the bullying and sullying. And the damage unleashed by Trump continues to roil.
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That the huge swing Right has been due to Ruport Murdoch's properties - the tabloids in England and Fox "News" in the Unitied States - should be obvious to anyone with a head for the past 15 years.
It's not the hackers that are the big danger - it's the monetization of propaganda. Imagine if Hitler or Stalin or Mao made a million dollars every time he dumped a planeload of leaflets... *that's* where we are today...
It's not the hackers that are the big danger - it's the monetization of propaganda. Imagine if Hitler or Stalin or Mao made a million dollars every time he dumped a planeload of leaflets... *that's* where we are today...
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i am so glad to finally read comments like this..... FOX is ruining our country.
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So, when you say that France does not have Britain's tabloids or the U.S.'s Fox News, what you are saying is that Rupert Murdoch's slimy tentacles have not so far reached into France.
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Vive La France!
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"Rupert Murdoch's slimy tentacles have not so far reached into France."
Actuall if you look back he was firmly told to go away. One of the reasons he doesn't like France much and spouts so much negative rubbish via his diverse orifices.
Actuall if you look back he was firmly told to go away. One of the reasons he doesn't like France much and spouts so much negative rubbish via his diverse orifices.
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No - It means that the French people - along with their elected officials - have a different approach and point of view regarding their national elections - meaning they take it very seriously, do not consider it to be a "Horse race" for of entertainment - and don't look to their media as a means of pushing out the agenda of their candidates...
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