What a fascinating discussion we are having here in these comments! I am really enjoying it. Many of us are cheering the "manners" that proceed from genuine love and compassion toward our fellow human beings. Many are yearning for more civility in our public discourse. Some are reminding us that manners are also markers of class distinctions and exclusion. And a few are reminding us of the brutal struggles that many have fought, and are fighting, against injustices promulgated and perpetuated by so-called "gentlemen." Thank you all!
10
How is it polite to support racism, misogyny, bigotry, graft and healthcare death panels? Is there a section on what to wear with a brown shirt or a white hood? Polite means higher moral standards than what these College Republicans stand for.
4
At this point, I am concerned not about the color of a man's socks but about the fact that I can see his underwear when his trousers ride around his thighs. And can smell the rancid marijuana emanating from his mouth.
Civility would be nice too.
Civility would be nice too.
2
The civility problem ("you lie") is exemplified by the source of these rules - a handbook from a college. Civility is more easily learned via education and travel. And those things cost money. The deplorables are, appropriately to some extent, irate because they never got such guidance because their parents lacked the cash to get them in colleges or to travel much.
6
This policy of civility at Hampden Sydney is brilliant.
I find that I very much admire grace and etiquette in others.
As a teenager, George Washington wrote 'Rules of Civility & Decent Behaviour in Company and Conversation'. If I were a schoolteacher, it would most certainly be part of my curriculum.
I find that I very much admire grace and etiquette in others.
As a teenager, George Washington wrote 'Rules of Civility & Decent Behaviour in Company and Conversation'. If I were a schoolteacher, it would most certainly be part of my curriculum.
9
"a men’s college", what a funny concept. Uncivil in itself, methinks.
2
Is a women's college uncivil in itself?
12
We must be very careful in glamorizing the outward “civility” and “elegance” of yesteryear at Hampden-Sydney and in this country because beneath the surface of that refinement was an unfair ruling class described by some as “male, pale and Episcopale.”
America was then mighty but not GREAT for all its citizens because it denied equal treatment to more than half its citizens. Perhaps someone should lay out some photographs from college yearbooks, of faculty members and boards of trustees as well as city councils, state legislatures, Congress and presidential cabinets of 50 or 60 years ago.
I doubt that many would then find “Let’s make America great again” as attractive as it might now appear to them.
America was then mighty but not GREAT for all its citizens because it denied equal treatment to more than half its citizens. Perhaps someone should lay out some photographs from college yearbooks, of faculty members and boards of trustees as well as city councils, state legislatures, Congress and presidential cabinets of 50 or 60 years ago.
I doubt that many would then find “Let’s make America great again” as attractive as it might now appear to them.
2
While Trevor and Chris's college was going about "forming good men and good citizens," they rented enslaved people from surrounding slaveowners. A former president of the school wrote in 1943, “It is believed that no educational institution in the South furnished, in proportion to its enrollment, more of its alumni and students—if as many—to the Confederate States Army.” I wonder what injustices calls for civility hide today? (They aren't difficult to find.)
(source:http://www.virginiamemory.com/blogs/out_of_the_box/2013/08/14/slavery-at...
(source:http://www.virginiamemory.com/blogs/out_of_the_box/2013/08/14/slavery-at...
3
Civility contributes to civilization, no doubt. Genuine consideration for others certainly does. And then there is language.
Thomas Mann wrote, "Speech is civilization itself. The word, even the most contradictory word, preserves contact -- it is silence which isolates."
Then what to make of those agents of populism, the voluble Donald Trump and the alt-right word mills? At first blush, it seems that they must be given credit at least for preserving contact. But today's populism, which is defined by the ruptures it demands and not by any foreseeable gain, is a form of anarchism. It rewards verbal mischief, which is not contradictory speech but an attempt to sabotage speech and thereby rupture contact.
For anarchists, the ushering-in of a "post-truth" age is but a means to an end. The end is moral muteness. Silence.
http://thefamilyproperty.blogspot.jp/
Thomas Mann wrote, "Speech is civilization itself. The word, even the most contradictory word, preserves contact -- it is silence which isolates."
Then what to make of those agents of populism, the voluble Donald Trump and the alt-right word mills? At first blush, it seems that they must be given credit at least for preserving contact. But today's populism, which is defined by the ruptures it demands and not by any foreseeable gain, is a form of anarchism. It rewards verbal mischief, which is not contradictory speech but an attempt to sabotage speech and thereby rupture contact.
For anarchists, the ushering-in of a "post-truth" age is but a means to an end. The end is moral muteness. Silence.
http://thefamilyproperty.blogspot.jp/
4
Blue socks with seersucker? I think not! A proper man wears dress white socks and white bucks with seersucker.
5
Bravo! You gentlemen portend a brighter future for America than we are experiencing presently.
13
To use a good old Newfoundland expression, that some may think run counter to the sentiments of these two gentlemen, "Well, oil beef hooked!"
Two young men speaking of civility, respect, and good manners, what a novel concept to revive in this year of push 'n' shove.
I note that two countries of the second economic tier, Canada and France, have elected very young politicians who are both open to the ideas of the young and operate with respect towards the elder and experienced politicians. Perhaps there is hope for a truly brave new world.
Two young men speaking of civility, respect, and good manners, what a novel concept to revive in this year of push 'n' shove.
I note that two countries of the second economic tier, Canada and France, have elected very young politicians who are both open to the ideas of the young and operate with respect towards the elder and experienced politicians. Perhaps there is hope for a truly brave new world.
8
Emphasizing civility means placing importance on how we treat one another. In some respect isn't supporting particular policies- e.g ensuring access to Health Care, a minimal standard of living, ensuring the health of the planet for future generations- a logical extension of " being civil"?
4
Can you send a copy to Mr. Trump???!!
8
This is the Virginia way. Good manners, civility and gentlemanly conduct.
7
Out of the mouths of babes . . .
I applaud these students, and I encourage them to never lose their optimism and gentility. There is far more virtue in our nation and our world than is ever acknowledged in the media.
Rock on, Trevor and Chris!
I applaud these students, and I encourage them to never lose their optimism and gentility. There is far more virtue in our nation and our world than is ever acknowledged in the media.
Rock on, Trevor and Chris!
10
Too bad our president did not get that handout. He respects no one unless there is a payoff. Even then it consists of lip service.
3
Many people probably believe good manner are for the "elite"!
3
I cannot believe that this was published in the New York Times in 2017.
2
"Those who profess to favor freedom
And yet deprecate agitation
Are men who want crops
Without plowing the ground.
They want rain without thunder and lightening.
They want the ocean without the awful roar of its waters.
Power concedes nothing without a demand.
It never did, and it never will."
Frederick Douglas, August 4, 1857.
Particularly in the South gentility and giving tokens and tidbits has been the good cop to the bad cop of Bull Connor and lynchings. The integration of schools was delayed for decades after Brown v. Board of Education via accommodations and smoke screens, and succeeding years have seen economic stagnation for blacks and resegregation in schools.
The assault on civil rights commenced by Trump and the GOP is anything but civil. Accommodations aren't the order of the day for those who espouse democracy, civil rights, and basic human dignity.
Civility is important, vital even, but has limits. Some things must be called out and opposed.
And yet deprecate agitation
Are men who want crops
Without plowing the ground.
They want rain without thunder and lightening.
They want the ocean without the awful roar of its waters.
Power concedes nothing without a demand.
It never did, and it never will."
Frederick Douglas, August 4, 1857.
Particularly in the South gentility and giving tokens and tidbits has been the good cop to the bad cop of Bull Connor and lynchings. The integration of schools was delayed for decades after Brown v. Board of Education via accommodations and smoke screens, and succeeding years have seen economic stagnation for blacks and resegregation in schools.
The assault on civil rights commenced by Trump and the GOP is anything but civil. Accommodations aren't the order of the day for those who espouse democracy, civil rights, and basic human dignity.
Civility is important, vital even, but has limits. Some things must be called out and opposed.
7
Courtesy, politeness, and respect for our fellow human beings are always important. But they have precious little to do with the color of one's socks, attire for opening night at an opera, or the placement of dessert forks. These, and other superficial indicia of class status, have far less to do with politeness and respect than with reinforcing social and political hierarchies. Jim Crow and Apartheid had their own codes of etiquette, after all, often enforced by more kinetic means than a college manual.
1
A perfect example of why your standards of civility are needed is the comments section here. Not only more civility, but more facts and reason are needed. Anyone who thinks Trump is Hitler never studied European history. Immigration laws don't constitute ethnic cleansing--the Jews sent to the gas chamber were German citizens, not illegal immigrants. Trump never said "Mexicans are rapists." Trump may have committed sexual assault but that doesn't mean people who voted for him approve of sexual assault. Democratic activists have been engaged for more than a year now in deliberate misquotations, false analogies, straw men and other propaganda techniques. Even though I'm a registered Democrat it's people on the so-called "Left" (not a real Left which we don't have in the US) who make me frightened for America. Increasingly they sound like a mob.
8
I would like to see samples of polite dialogues that actually made some progress in at least sorting the issues out. Perhaps you could begin with the validity of the scientific method as applied to the earth's temperature adjustment mechanisms, and then discuss the source of the disagreements we find in our country in this area.
The Senate had a tradition of politeness, but this did not enable them to stop the Civil War. Perhaps you need a polite discussion of Virginia's leadership of the Confederacy and the subsequent fight against Reconstruction.
The Senate had a tradition of politeness, but this did not enable them to stop the Civil War. Perhaps you need a polite discussion of Virginia's leadership of the Confederacy and the subsequent fight against Reconstruction.
1
What a strange suggestion. No polite discourse on the validity (or questionability)of global warming models or the causes of the civil war will ever be tolerated by the academic Left or their teeming masses of selectively-informed pupils. Progressives have quite deliberately erected an intellectual iron curtain across America. Discourse is the enemy of political indoctrination.
2
One does not have to have money to have manners, and good manners take one everywhere in life! Today, multi-cultural etiquette & manners from all cultures can be accessed Online in a jiffy. It may sound silly, or old fashioned, but acts of kindness, consideration of others' feelings, diplomacy & dining like a Diplomat, always work in any setting. I wish Twitter had "Thank you Thursday's" as the anonymity of social media increasingly feeds our worst base instincts, but we must try our best to be kind and compliment the pundits. As a graduate of Sweet Briar College in 1983, I say "Bravo!" to Hamden-Sydney for continuing this dignified tradition in broadening the education of young men as they rise up into adult society. After all, our manners as adults, with family, friends, and at work, are up to us. www.betteretiquette.blogspot.com
12
My parents taught me how to behave as did my (excellent) elementary school teachers
My university and university professors taught me how to think critically.
I do not get involved in my student's behavior, or what color socks they are wearing, as long as they are not disruptive in my class, and they are not. I teach adults.
Their parents were responsible for their behavior.
I would hope that civil discourse would be taught before one reaches university.
My university and university professors taught me how to think critically.
I do not get involved in my student's behavior, or what color socks they are wearing, as long as they are not disruptive in my class, and they are not. I teach adults.
Their parents were responsible for their behavior.
I would hope that civil discourse would be taught before one reaches university.
8
Growing up at the tail end of the most recent era where manners were the looked-for currency of social congress, I recall that there were people around whose manners were exaggerated and whose civility was insincere but, frankly, they were easily identified and rather routinely ignored. What we all knew was that real civility never required submission to the aims of others; it never required us to shake hands with those who harmed us; it was never used to gloss over cultural errors.
Real civility, genuine manners, sprang from graciousness, from thoughtfulness, from a desire to listen and understand others. These attributes, in turn, allowed us to give and accept help (even today both men and women, old and young, still smile and say thank you when a door is held for them, thank goodness); they kept unnecessary, distracting drama at bay (Mom always told me that if I want to win the war, I have to pick my battles); they gave us time to follow our opponent's thinking and perhaps stay a step ahead of the fray, or build bridges over the divides; they allowed us to appreciate each other, and to support each other peacefully when and where we could. We burned fewer bridges behind us, and had more energy for the great battles of our time (Civil Rights, ending the Vietnam war).
With manners and civility, we were far more efficient and productive politically and socially. And it would be wonderful to see an efficient, mindful, responsible government in action once again.
Real civility, genuine manners, sprang from graciousness, from thoughtfulness, from a desire to listen and understand others. These attributes, in turn, allowed us to give and accept help (even today both men and women, old and young, still smile and say thank you when a door is held for them, thank goodness); they kept unnecessary, distracting drama at bay (Mom always told me that if I want to win the war, I have to pick my battles); they gave us time to follow our opponent's thinking and perhaps stay a step ahead of the fray, or build bridges over the divides; they allowed us to appreciate each other, and to support each other peacefully when and where we could. We burned fewer bridges behind us, and had more energy for the great battles of our time (Civil Rights, ending the Vietnam war).
With manners and civility, we were far more efficient and productive politically and socially. And it would be wonderful to see an efficient, mindful, responsible government in action once again.
9
I encourage the two authors to start a new party. The spectrum of right to left has been co-opted and demonized past the point of no return. Some people bend on that spectrum and end up closer to the other side. Now, some might bend up (say for economic reasons, and some might bend down (say for moral reasons), but the do not live just on that line. If we plotted where everyone in this country stood, we'd end up with a scatterplot in a circle.
We need a new party that embraces that fact, and welcomes those who want change and less government regulation but can't handle the stereotypical liberal elitist mentality, as well as the progressive citizen who believes that businesses and people will prosper if the neediest are buoyed, and the wealthiest taxed more. There could be a party for both of these if started with a clean slate.
Start new party guys, the ones you cling to have left you and your values and your niceties behind.
We need a new party that embraces that fact, and welcomes those who want change and less government regulation but can't handle the stereotypical liberal elitist mentality, as well as the progressive citizen who believes that businesses and people will prosper if the neediest are buoyed, and the wealthiest taxed more. There could be a party for both of these if started with a clean slate.
Start new party guys, the ones you cling to have left you and your values and your niceties behind.
9
Sounds like a bunch of spoiled privileged white twits.
4
You know, it is comments like this that prove their point. Thank you for posting this.
28
I wonder if Mr. Ross has an extra copy that he could offer for your reference and general edification, Ms. Ciliberti.
Ah, you see, that would be an example of poor manners.
7
It's useful to remember that good manners have been stigmatized with the alternative term "political correctness." Etiquette isn't selling out to identity politics. It's care for community values and the feelings of our fellows.
32
I disagree. The two are not the same. Political correctness, in the eyes of its detractors, refers to conventions that enshrine certain political values as true, and thus not open to discussion. Hence, these people feel their point of view is excluded from the conversation. Etiquette, on the other hand, refers to conventions regarding how to behave and interact with people that are considered polite and civil. Etiquette may involve taking certain topics out of consideration (e.g., "Don't talk about religion at the dinner table") but not because some point of view is presumed to be true.
Why bless your heart!
24
Are you Southern? Then you may say "bless your heart"!
Here's the takeaway quotation: "the demographic tends to be a little homogeneous." Well that's why they can maintain a civil fantasy, because they all understand the dessert is eaten with separate sliver while wearing a family tartan, at least in theory. "To the Manner Born" indeed!
9
Anyone, ANYONE, can maintain civility if they know what it entails and choose to do so, whether they wear Carhartts and use plastic utensils or wear tartan slacks (with powder blue socks?) and actually know what all the extra silverware on the table is for. Manners, civility, respect are never limited to graduates of private men's (or women's) colleges. Hint, hint.
3
Great piece but, unfortunately, this is a like summiting Everest.
We, the USA, have a history of many disenfranchised of all types. Many going back centuries. And this includes simple things like their voice being silenced.
The good news is this has been improving for over a century. But there still is plenty of room for improvement. The challenge is the current state of communications. While the Internet has improved communications for all, it does have it's limits. Up until the last decade or so people still spent the time to write full paragraphs in the various venues. However the advent of things like Twitter and Facebook have reduced things to a few dozen words at best, ricocheting around the ecosystem at light speed, with similar type responses in a similar timer frame. In a nutshell one cannot have conversation when their utterances are limited, such as 140 characters with Twitter. Which brings me to why people want to affiliate with something that begins with twit. Maybe birdbrains?
We, the USA, have a history of many disenfranchised of all types. Many going back centuries. And this includes simple things like their voice being silenced.
The good news is this has been improving for over a century. But there still is plenty of room for improvement. The challenge is the current state of communications. While the Internet has improved communications for all, it does have it's limits. Up until the last decade or so people still spent the time to write full paragraphs in the various venues. However the advent of things like Twitter and Facebook have reduced things to a few dozen words at best, ricocheting around the ecosystem at light speed, with similar type responses in a similar timer frame. In a nutshell one cannot have conversation when their utterances are limited, such as 140 characters with Twitter. Which brings me to why people want to affiliate with something that begins with twit. Maybe birdbrains?
1
It must make it easier when the target of some of Trump's worst policies and behavior aren't present. Women!
17
Also didn't sound like there was a good number of black gentlemen there!
2
I get the overall point, which is a good one, but one thing cannot just be let go.
NEVER wear navy socks with seersucker!!!!!!!!
That is utter madness. You can check any source on the planet, and the answer will be consistent: The proper sock to wear with blue seersucker is powder blue. Do not pass go, do not collect $200.
I am startled that any institution of higher learning would advise otherwise. Then again, the pamphlet to which the author refers was reportedly penned in 1978, when all manner of sartorial monstrosity was tolerated (baby blue tux with ruffles for the groom, anyone?)
Wedding season is nearly upon us, and so, for the sake of all that is sacred, DO NOT WEAR NAVY SOCKS WITH SEERSUCKER!!!!! You will be "that guy" at the reception, laughed about behind your back when you coulda been back-up belle of the ball. Powder blue socks with white buck shoes. And consider a pocket square (white linen, unless you really know what you're doing).
NEVER wear navy socks with seersucker!!!!!!!!
That is utter madness. You can check any source on the planet, and the answer will be consistent: The proper sock to wear with blue seersucker is powder blue. Do not pass go, do not collect $200.
I am startled that any institution of higher learning would advise otherwise. Then again, the pamphlet to which the author refers was reportedly penned in 1978, when all manner of sartorial monstrosity was tolerated (baby blue tux with ruffles for the groom, anyone?)
Wedding season is nearly upon us, and so, for the sake of all that is sacred, DO NOT WEAR NAVY SOCKS WITH SEERSUCKER!!!!! You will be "that guy" at the reception, laughed about behind your back when you coulda been back-up belle of the ball. Powder blue socks with white buck shoes. And consider a pocket square (white linen, unless you really know what you're doing).
33
I'm curious: would you recommend wearing a Patek Philippe with Roman or Arabic numerals - and black or cream dial color? - when donning said seersucker?
9
No socks w seersucker.
AH,
I will assume this question on watches is meant in jest.
Seersucker is a uniquely American, or imperialistic (the British favored it in their Far East colonies) sort of cloth. And so to go Continental with timepiece would be a mistake. The smart choice is Arabic with white or cream dial, and leave the Patek (and Rolex, for that matter) at home. I would recommend a vintage Elgin or something else that screams Americana. Leather band is fine, with brown being preferable. If you care to skate dangerously, consider a ribbon band, but be careful. Too much color can quickly put you over the top. Navy/maroon wide stripe would seem an acceptable choice.
And as for no socks with seersucker, what do we have for our departing contestant? Show up with no socks, especially with seersucker, at my wedding and you'll get shown the door. You want to dress for the beach, go to a beach.
I will assume this question on watches is meant in jest.
Seersucker is a uniquely American, or imperialistic (the British favored it in their Far East colonies) sort of cloth. And so to go Continental with timepiece would be a mistake. The smart choice is Arabic with white or cream dial, and leave the Patek (and Rolex, for that matter) at home. I would recommend a vintage Elgin or something else that screams Americana. Leather band is fine, with brown being preferable. If you care to skate dangerously, consider a ribbon band, but be careful. Too much color can quickly put you over the top. Navy/maroon wide stripe would seem an acceptable choice.
And as for no socks with seersucker, what do we have for our departing contestant? Show up with no socks, especially with seersucker, at my wedding and you'll get shown the door. You want to dress for the beach, go to a beach.
"We see this playing out particularly on other college campuses..."
And yet NOTHING about so-called president trump's vulgarity and name calling? Although Hampden Sydney students do know the difference between a fish fork and a salad fork and how to dress in family tartan.
And yet NOTHING about so-called president trump's vulgarity and name calling? Although Hampden Sydney students do know the difference between a fish fork and a salad fork and how to dress in family tartan.
15
The concept of being a gentleman or a lady has been tarnished by the suspicion that anyone of that sort must be "hung up" (a '60's expression) or "repressed", a diagnostic term coined by Freud.
In fact, the control of impulse is neither a psychological nor a social impairment, but a sign of maturity. Even Freud recognized the value of the Superego in exercising control over the Id.
It has been noted that we live in an era of narcissism, in which the self is asserted at all costs. Unfortunately we have a national leadership that demonstrates every day a never-ceasing cult of self-worship. It is when narcissism runs wild that a person would grab others by their genitalia or engage in serial marriage.
Yes, we can and should be civil in our political discourse. But as we do so we should constructively identify the obstacles to such discourse, among which are the poor examples being set by our political leadership. Anyone extolling the virtue of gentlemanliness should certainly agree that it is not appropriate to grab a lady by her privates or to brag about it.
If being a gentleman--or lady--were the standard on all campuses, we would not have to witness the endless stream of sexual assault, internet shaming, and social media trolls that seem constantly to surface.
Sometimes it takes an institution such as Hampden-Sydney to lead us forward by showing us the way back.
In fact, the control of impulse is neither a psychological nor a social impairment, but a sign of maturity. Even Freud recognized the value of the Superego in exercising control over the Id.
It has been noted that we live in an era of narcissism, in which the self is asserted at all costs. Unfortunately we have a national leadership that demonstrates every day a never-ceasing cult of self-worship. It is when narcissism runs wild that a person would grab others by their genitalia or engage in serial marriage.
Yes, we can and should be civil in our political discourse. But as we do so we should constructively identify the obstacles to such discourse, among which are the poor examples being set by our political leadership. Anyone extolling the virtue of gentlemanliness should certainly agree that it is not appropriate to grab a lady by her privates or to brag about it.
If being a gentleman--or lady--were the standard on all campuses, we would not have to witness the endless stream of sexual assault, internet shaming, and social media trolls that seem constantly to surface.
Sometimes it takes an institution such as Hampden-Sydney to lead us forward by showing us the way back.
25
yeah, let's take tips on political civility from a group of rich men who most likely have nothing to lose in politics either way. Politics are crucial. Understanding others is important but we can't forget that politics have significant impacts over the world.
10
There is civility in monotheistic thought; however, if diversity of opinion is dared to enter the bastion of liberal thought, then an all out assault on the first amendment is in order! Colleges and universities professing enlightenment and free thought have became a battle ground for enforcement of monotheism. Variety of thought,or the market place of ideas and the liberal creed " I may not agree with what you say but I will fight for your right to say it", are viewed as a threat, a disruption of the mind collective. Those who feel challenged will not respond and counter with facts; but will refuse to hear the argument; believing it too offensive to their discerning ears! To these enlightened masses a college or a university degree is not a testament of the rigors of academia; but a certification in indoctrination of singularity in thought and suppression of contrasting thought!
6
George - Relax.
2
I wonder if this is an example of the "civility" that Starnes and Ross were referring to:
"Hampden-Sydney College..renewed the contract of a visiting professor (Jerry Boykin) amid an uproar over his comments that appeared to advocate violence against transgender people...He said on video, "Where are the Christians that are standing up to this kind of evil?” and added, “But I will tell you what: the first man that walks in my daughter’s bathroom, he ain’t going to have to worry about the surgery.”
Boykin has also said that Jews are the “cause of all the problems in the world.”
Yet he remains a professor at Hampden-Sydney? Is that what the college refers to as "civility"? Wonder whether Young Democrats president Trevor Starnes was willing to express outrage at the hiring of that anti-Semite and bigot? Or would doing so violate the college's "civility"?
"Hampden-Sydney College..renewed the contract of a visiting professor (Jerry Boykin) amid an uproar over his comments that appeared to advocate violence against transgender people...He said on video, "Where are the Christians that are standing up to this kind of evil?” and added, “But I will tell you what: the first man that walks in my daughter’s bathroom, he ain’t going to have to worry about the surgery.”
Boykin has also said that Jews are the “cause of all the problems in the world.”
Yet he remains a professor at Hampden-Sydney? Is that what the college refers to as "civility"? Wonder whether Young Democrats president Trevor Starnes was willing to express outrage at the hiring of that anti-Semite and bigot? Or would doing so violate the college's "civility"?
25
So, do you have a problem with academic freedom? I know many men, liberal and conservative, who have taken his class and are now great leaders. They often attribute their success to leadership and developmental lessons learned under General Boykin's tutelage.
1
The man was joking, sir.
I have to say that I've met some Hampden-Sydney graduates, and they have been among the most polite and courteous people around. I also agree with some of the comments that these things are easy to say if you're like most Hamden-Sydney graduates, rich and white. But that's too simplistic. I know many rich white people and the Hampden-Sydney grads do stand out in their civility. And they extend that civility even to me, a brown person and that is much appreciated.
34
I absolutely agree! When in Virginia I have met several young men from this college and they are unusually gracious. I have a natural prejudice against all things that smack of preppy wealthy private schools, but kids I've met from Hampton Sidney are really lovely kids, it's a fact. It's kind of hard to hate Hampton Sidney once you've met the students.
7
"To reject that part of the Buddha that attends to the analysis of motorcycles is to miss the Buddha entirely."
5
could we please start with getting the correct date? 1879 or perhaps even 1779 but definitely not 1979
2
actually it was 1979
4
The author credit goes to Thomas H. Shomo, Hampden-Sydney College Class of '69, Director of Marketing and Communications at the college bookstore.
It does seem surprising, but according to the OCLC World Catalog, the first edition is from 1978 (the 2nd edition is from 1979). http://www.worldcat.org/title/to-manner-born-to-manners-bred-a-hip-pocke...
2
“'Behave as a gentleman at all times and in all places'..... boils down to treating everyone with respect."
Everyone? Really? Regardless? Can you not imagine someone, some act, some statement unworthy of respect?
Certainly, a gentleman (an obsolete term, but the concept is still indispensable) is considerate. Good manners spring from a compassionate understanding of the others around you and a consideration of their needs. True grace comes from love.
But what, then, when confronted with the intolerable? With real danger, real fear, real suffering? You'll need grace, then, sure, but more than grace. You'll need strength and courage and the will to act to defend the good.
I prefer "a gentleman never offends anyone unnecessarily."
Show me a man without enemies and I'll show you a man without character (I think Paul Newman may have said that).
Everyone? Really? Regardless? Can you not imagine someone, some act, some statement unworthy of respect?
Certainly, a gentleman (an obsolete term, but the concept is still indispensable) is considerate. Good manners spring from a compassionate understanding of the others around you and a consideration of their needs. True grace comes from love.
But what, then, when confronted with the intolerable? With real danger, real fear, real suffering? You'll need grace, then, sure, but more than grace. You'll need strength and courage and the will to act to defend the good.
I prefer "a gentleman never offends anyone unnecessarily."
Show me a man without enemies and I'll show you a man without character (I think Paul Newman may have said that).
12
I have to disagree, sir. I happen to believe that a true gentleman must maintain composure and etiquette regardless of the issue at hand. If someone is being a jerk then still treat that person with respect, but change your tone to make it so that person spends more time listening to you than being angry or hyped. It is doable, but requires you put your own ego in the back seat- something many women are/have been taught to do. While it may seem like the man has no character, it really shows humility. Humility increases our reputation to those on then other side of the isle by giving them the idea that we care about what they say and may even be willing to change our views- hence giving a reason to the other party to care about what you say as they reciprocate that courtesy to you. It's hard, especially when the epitome of the rabble-rouser has been elected to be our president right after the epitome of gentlemanliness, but if everyone made the effort to do so I think world peace and many other world goals would not be a dream.
16
Correction:
I once had an opportunity to ask Stephen Colbert if he'd ever been enrolled at Hampden-Sydney. Unfortunately, I ceded my time to a young woman dressed in a Hamburglar costume. True story. She wanted to offer the speaker a stolen burger. How could I say no? That's etiquette. Time ran out before the mic came back to me. Even given the time though, I wasn't planning to ask anything about Virginia.
I once had an opportunity to ask Stephen Colbert if he'd ever been enrolled at Hampden-Sydney. Unfortunately, I ceded my time to a young woman dressed in a Hamburglar costume. True story. She wanted to offer the speaker a stolen burger. How could I say no? That's etiquette. Time ran out before the mic came back to me. Even given the time though, I wasn't planning to ask anything about Virginia.
2
Good manners originate from one's attitude about people, born from a genuine consideration of others.
20
Yes. Thanks.
One of my nominations for a "Most Underrated Movies" list is "Blast From The Past," in which a young man raised alone in an underground bomb shelter since the Cold War with his eccentric genius father and stuck-in-the-early-1960s mother emerges alone into modern Los Angeles. I love seeing how his new friends gently humor him with a certain slack-jawed disbelief as he applies bromides of the sort that might be in your etiquette book to all his encounters.
In the context of the gender wars I'd like to add, in my role as a graybeard, that it is beyond impolite to make a woman fear for her safety with catcalls or body language. Unacceptable is too mild a term. And when it comes to matters of sex and romance, one should make it clear one will accept "no" for an answer. It's empowering for you if you're not interested in being with a woman who is not interested in being with you.
By the same token, it is perhaps time to insist that women and other men treat us with a reciprocal respect.
One of my nominations for a "Most Underrated Movies" list is "Blast From The Past," in which a young man raised alone in an underground bomb shelter since the Cold War with his eccentric genius father and stuck-in-the-early-1960s mother emerges alone into modern Los Angeles. I love seeing how his new friends gently humor him with a certain slack-jawed disbelief as he applies bromides of the sort that might be in your etiquette book to all his encounters.
In the context of the gender wars I'd like to add, in my role as a graybeard, that it is beyond impolite to make a woman fear for her safety with catcalls or body language. Unacceptable is too mild a term. And when it comes to matters of sex and romance, one should make it clear one will accept "no" for an answer. It's empowering for you if you're not interested in being with a woman who is not interested in being with you.
By the same token, it is perhaps time to insist that women and other men treat us with a reciprocal respect.
6
On the theme of movies and (old fashioned) manners and today's social (rather than political) issues, who remembers this exchange from A Philadelphia Story: Jimmy Stewart explains to various concerned men (fiancé, ex-husband) that "nothing happened" when he and the Katherine Hepburn character - known for her chilliness and also her blackout drunk fun episodes (!) - disappeared off toward the pool house with a bottles of champagne the night before. The lady is indignant: "what do you mean nothing happened? Was I so cold? So unattractive?" His reply (approx): "Quite the contrary. You were very attractive, and willing, but - you were also a little worse, or better, for wine. There are rules about these things."
Gender stereotypes aside, a good old rule about considering what a partner might regret, especially after drinking. Hope Hampton Sydney does a better job of conveying that kind of thing than, say, the Stanford swim team.
Gender stereotypes aside, a good old rule about considering what a partner might regret, especially after drinking. Hope Hampton Sydney does a better job of conveying that kind of thing than, say, the Stanford swim team.
7
I think you are missing a lot of irony in that film!
1
Bravo! Hampden-Sydney should hold their heads up high, revel in a mantra of civility, maturity, decency, respect for others, good manners, and polite behavior. Our society has gone so far down, so out of control, so vile in many ways, that one can only hope, some of what these young men are learning will funnel down the social food chain. Oh, my God, to only wish for the old days...yes, the old days...when people had some idea of decorum, relishing in "special occasions" where jeans were not worn, where theater was a special event and one dressed accordingly, or just going out to eat was somewhat of a time to "dress" a little specially. Keep up this tradition at this school!!
12
Not to mention dress appropriately for air travel! Granted, it was limited to those who could afford it, and legroom likely more abundant.
7
Manners and being to engage, in person, remain important out in the professional and business world. Putting aside politics for the moment, learn how to send a handwritten note, learn how to get up out of your chair and go sit in the office of your boss or peer and have a discussion (rather than emailing) you will be better for it, learn how to go to a cocktail party and chat with folks without staring at your smart phone the whole time. Basically, disengage from your phone and computer and engage with people in person from time to time.
13
I ask total strangers in stores,"What are you making for dinner tonight"? or " You must like this cheese that you are buying 5 pieces of... should I try one too"? Most Americans are happy to
chat and share likes and dislikes. Give advice.
Half my neighbors had Trump signs on their lawns and "Lock her up" about Hillary Clinton, but they are all decent, upstanding, kind, and genorous people who will dig up their "Lenten Roses" and "Snow Drops" for you to plant in your garden.
We MUST not give up on what we have in common. When it comes to specific issues, I'm sure we agree and differ, depending... , but our two-party system corrupts and brutalizes us unnecessarily. In "parliamentary systems" people have the choice of a multitude of parties, and there is little of the scary gratuitous hatred and hostility we experience here. Can we change? America is too lovely and precious to be sacrificed on this TRIBAL altar. We ARE better than that.
A dear, OLD friend of mine always maintained that the "polite thing, is ALWAYS the KIND thing." I think that "comes natural" to most Americans I meet. ( Accustomed to a more challenging, "reserved" social European approach, I thoroughly enjoy this unreserved aspect of everyday American life.) It is something we should treasure, cultivate and be proud of.
chat and share likes and dislikes. Give advice.
Half my neighbors had Trump signs on their lawns and "Lock her up" about Hillary Clinton, but they are all decent, upstanding, kind, and genorous people who will dig up their "Lenten Roses" and "Snow Drops" for you to plant in your garden.
We MUST not give up on what we have in common. When it comes to specific issues, I'm sure we agree and differ, depending... , but our two-party system corrupts and brutalizes us unnecessarily. In "parliamentary systems" people have the choice of a multitude of parties, and there is little of the scary gratuitous hatred and hostility we experience here. Can we change? America is too lovely and precious to be sacrificed on this TRIBAL altar. We ARE better than that.
A dear, OLD friend of mine always maintained that the "polite thing, is ALWAYS the KIND thing." I think that "comes natural" to most Americans I meet. ( Accustomed to a more challenging, "reserved" social European approach, I thoroughly enjoy this unreserved aspect of everyday American life.) It is something we should treasure, cultivate and be proud of.
14
I am glad to see that you are able to recognise the intrinsic value of politesse, along with its outward manifestations. There may even come a day when knowing what colour hosiery to wear with blue and white seersucker (along with the appropriate colour and type of shoe) will prove a form of salvation.
You just can't ever tell....
You just can't ever tell....
3
Haven't people called you a bunch of miss- o- jinist southern racists yet?
I mean, a men's college with Southern manners?
Actually I like the article. Why not show some manners? Even our great and erudite fourth estate opinion creators can benefit from learning a few manners. For example, when Donald Trump says he would be honored to meet the North Korean leader Kim Jong-Un he is practicing good manners. I'm sure I don't have to explain that to the authors.
I mean, a men's college with Southern manners?
Actually I like the article. Why not show some manners? Even our great and erudite fourth estate opinion creators can benefit from learning a few manners. For example, when Donald Trump says he would be honored to meet the North Korean leader Kim Jong-Un he is practicing good manners. I'm sure I don't have to explain that to the authors.
4
It's disheartening to see crude talk and crude manners.
My mother used to say " Good manners will open doors - and one more - "when you open your mouth your brains show"
A bit of grace is reflected on anyone using manners.
17
Good manners are an excellent human s ocial behavior as long as they are not be confused with or equated with "tradition."
For example some supreme court members a few years ago stated that it is ok to pray at the beginning of a government public meeting. They said it was a fine tradition. Slavery was once thought to be a great tradition as was the fact that women in this country did not/could not vote. And all the other "traditions" that we now think of as outdated bigotry and corruption.
And to cover up for the horror and embarrassment of slavery in the south during its existence, the southern people took on giant and ludicrous speech patterns of politeness and artificial civility that attempted to cover up the sin. Southern Hospitality if you like. If everyone spoke nothing of the sin, pretending it did not exist and was a fine tradition, and everyone spoke with the greatest respect to all other decent citizens whom you met, this illusion would work.
So let's be careful in promoting this kind of phoniness of behavior, accepting every person and idea as equal because they are not. Old-fashioned ideals about politeness might just allow us to cover up all the corruption and bigotry which abound today in America.
One does not "transform disparate ideas into meaningful change" with fake politeness and manners.
Just think about the Trump-care horror show and the pure greed which underlies it. It is a giant scam to reduce taxes. Will politeness correct this kind of slime
For example some supreme court members a few years ago stated that it is ok to pray at the beginning of a government public meeting. They said it was a fine tradition. Slavery was once thought to be a great tradition as was the fact that women in this country did not/could not vote. And all the other "traditions" that we now think of as outdated bigotry and corruption.
And to cover up for the horror and embarrassment of slavery in the south during its existence, the southern people took on giant and ludicrous speech patterns of politeness and artificial civility that attempted to cover up the sin. Southern Hospitality if you like. If everyone spoke nothing of the sin, pretending it did not exist and was a fine tradition, and everyone spoke with the greatest respect to all other decent citizens whom you met, this illusion would work.
So let's be careful in promoting this kind of phoniness of behavior, accepting every person and idea as equal because they are not. Old-fashioned ideals about politeness might just allow us to cover up all the corruption and bigotry which abound today in America.
One does not "transform disparate ideas into meaningful change" with fake politeness and manners.
Just think about the Trump-care horror show and the pure greed which underlies it. It is a giant scam to reduce taxes. Will politeness correct this kind of slime
16
You seem to be saying that politeness is useless because those who are not polite won't care. While you may be right to an extent, many impolite people are only that way because they are having a hard time or a bad day. Or maybe they had several traumatic experiences that made them that way. The short of it is this- make them see that being genteel is not a sign of weakness or submission, but rather a sign of strength and cooperation.
4
Interesting assertions, sir. As Reagan noted in 1964, "It isn't that our liberal friends are wrong. It's just that they know so much that isn't so."
We didn't get a nice booklet, we got two old navy chiefs who washed away any dissatisfaction between our group by having a boxing ring available to help us ease into the daily routine of finding a common ground.
We were yelled at for our misfortunes and paid extra when others failed. Out of this came teamwork, a common bond and civility.
To this day some of the small things learned at this training still carries over.
When we rationed water, I got by with navy showers.
We were yelled at for our misfortunes and paid extra when others failed. Out of this came teamwork, a common bond and civility.
To this day some of the small things learned at this training still carries over.
When we rationed water, I got by with navy showers.
4
It sounds like you also learned a second lesson, as did I, in the service: the clear-cut difference between a want and a need.
2
So with the middle class hollowed out and inequality spiking, fledgling plebs hope quaint gestures will make everything groovy. Good to know that Bertie Wooster is in charge of the future.
7
So I was just reading and comparing the Boy Scout Pledge (or whatever you want to call it, their code of conduct) and the Girl Scout version, which covers some similar points but is a little vaguer and more helpmate-oriented. I think there is value in these codes of conduct, not the least is that they come in handy when one is ready to lose one's temper. I don't care if Hampden-Sydney is all white and male. And I don't care if the Boy Scouts are male and I am female, I actually like their code and would use most of it as my personal code as well.
22
Always good to see someone stand up for manners. I believe the late Dr. Joy Browne used to refer to them as the "great social lubricant". And after witnessing anyone's public rudeness, I always catch myself thinking, "Manners cost nothing. Use generously."
But since this article is also about the intersection of manners and politics, I wonder how people to whom manners matter justify their support of Trump, a creature for whom the absence of manners seems to be not just an obvious character flaw but also a tremendous source of pride.
But since this article is also about the intersection of manners and politics, I wonder how people to whom manners matter justify their support of Trump, a creature for whom the absence of manners seems to be not just an obvious character flaw but also a tremendous source of pride.
22
The alt-right grifters and criminals, including their leader Trump, have co-opted the concept of 'civility', defined it as 'Political Correctness' (a phrase to be spat out with derision), something to be snickered at as weakness.
Civility will take a very long time to return, having been burned to the ground by the current President of the United States.
Civility will take a very long time to return, having been burned to the ground by the current President of the United States.
24
It's fine to hope for civility when the consequences of the alternative positions are both civil. Then there are times when civility is cowardice and complicity. It is appearing to more and more people of good will and careful thought that this is such a time.
10
I think manners started to degrade when they became akin to "chocolate sprinkles on a dungball" as a sign of insincerity, falsity, a form of exclusion, social division and underhandedness. For example, criminally insane psychopaths tend to have excellent manners, since, unable to empathize emotionally with others, they study people so closely for social cues. Of course, these good manners tend to mask more serious anti-social problems, but they are intended to deceive. So, while nice manners are lovely, they are certainly no replacement for moral conduct and empathy for others.
14
Nothing wrong with being civil.
But, a book on etiquette, like this one, is exactly what is wrong with our country when it peddles out the outdated assumption that everyone in this country must adhere to the social mores of white, southern. male, privileged "gentleman."
Despite what the sheltered gentlemen of this op-ed piece may believe, this country has people with a multitude of color, economic status, ethnicity and nationality who do not see the path to civility as knowing what wines to drink or whether it is a black or white tie affair.
But, a book on etiquette, like this one, is exactly what is wrong with our country when it peddles out the outdated assumption that everyone in this country must adhere to the social mores of white, southern. male, privileged "gentleman."
Despite what the sheltered gentlemen of this op-ed piece may believe, this country has people with a multitude of color, economic status, ethnicity and nationality who do not see the path to civility as knowing what wines to drink or whether it is a black or white tie affair.
12
You seem to imply that shared values and common understanding are an outdated idea. In fact, they are an essential to the concept of community in any culture, and have been for millennia. Are there any concepts in this article that a person from any culture, class or ethnicity would find objectionable?
8
I understand your argument and that there is value in being able to discuss different opinions civilly. In the past I have been able to have polite debates with Republicans, but I find that more difficult today. I have a hard time arguing civilly about why my rights to my body should not be taken away, about why I should be paid equally for equal work, about how giving a pass to those who boast about sexual harassment and sexual assault legitimizes that behavior and undermines my autonomy. When your rights are less at threat, politeness may be more attainable.
21
I almost skimmed past this essay until I noticed the origin. I actually have multiple relatives that are alumni of Hampden-Sydney. Rumor has it Stephen Colbert once attended the college as well. I'll admit though, I've never had the opportunity to ask him. Sadly, I don't know any alumnae. The reason is already stated.
Yes. The prep school model has it's advantages. Civility and manners. General comfort and agreement in discourse. What not to wear on a fox hunt. Ecetera. It almost worked for Holden Caufield. It did work for Winston Churchill.
However, Mr. Starnes and Mr. Ross fail to acknowledge their academic education is homogeneous in more ways than one. The students are matriculated in a primarily white, rural community of uncharacteristic educational obtainment and wealth. I'm not saying that's everyone in attendance but the averages on campus don't lie.
I find it fairly easy to agree with my counterpart when we're arguing baseball versus cricket. Things get a little more complicated when you're faced with visceral culture shock and no escape. I hope Hampden-Sydney has an aggressive study abroad program. More challenging to me is coming back. I believe reverse culture shock is the technical term.
Reverse culture shock is that moment when you realize people you thought were drastically different from each other and yourself all suddenly seem the same. The experience is both boring and depressing at the same time. Starnes and Ross haven't gotten there yet.
Yes. The prep school model has it's advantages. Civility and manners. General comfort and agreement in discourse. What not to wear on a fox hunt. Ecetera. It almost worked for Holden Caufield. It did work for Winston Churchill.
However, Mr. Starnes and Mr. Ross fail to acknowledge their academic education is homogeneous in more ways than one. The students are matriculated in a primarily white, rural community of uncharacteristic educational obtainment and wealth. I'm not saying that's everyone in attendance but the averages on campus don't lie.
I find it fairly easy to agree with my counterpart when we're arguing baseball versus cricket. Things get a little more complicated when you're faced with visceral culture shock and no escape. I hope Hampden-Sydney has an aggressive study abroad program. More challenging to me is coming back. I believe reverse culture shock is the technical term.
Reverse culture shock is that moment when you realize people you thought were drastically different from each other and yourself all suddenly seem the same. The experience is both boring and depressing at the same time. Starnes and Ross haven't gotten there yet.
8
The idea that this book works though is a complete farce.
"Hampden-Sydney College, an all-male school in central Virginia, is investigating an election-night incident in which a group of students upset about President Obama’s reelection set off fireworks, threw bottles and then shouted racial epithets at members of a minority student organization, officials said Thursday."
https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/racial-epithets-heard-at-...
"Hampden-Sydney College, an all-male school in central Virginia, is investigating an election-night incident in which a group of students upset about President Obama’s reelection set off fireworks, threw bottles and then shouted racial epithets at members of a minority student organization, officials said Thursday."
https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/racial-epithets-heard-at-...
24
Rules of Civility. For some . Toward some. Faux.
3
As someone who has extensive knowledge of this occurance, I can say that every single article about that incident is wrong. It was not a mob of students throwing bottles and carrying pitch forks. It was a small group of about 4 students. 2 were expelled from the college by the student led student court (they were expelled by their peers, in other words) and they others were either suspended or sanctioned heavily.
3
"To Manner Born" or "Born to Mansplain"?
12
Did the authors of the booklet mistakenly misspell "To manor born [...]"?
11
How quaint. The bubble you guys live in must be nice. They rest of us live in the real world.
7
To wilfully ignore, disregard, or dismiss facts, or outright lie to others is the ultimate disrespect and insult, no matter what words are used or not. To become an agent of a liar , especially for self gain is the ultimate shame.
3
Perhaps such a "Rule Book" can be applied to the Comments.
I can not count the number of accusations of being:
A "racist",
"fascists",
"Know-Nothing"
have been tossed out without a pause by whomever it is that edits
the New York Times.
Why is that so ?
I can not count the number of accusations of being:
A "racist",
"fascists",
"Know-Nothing"
have been tossed out without a pause by whomever it is that edits
the New York Times.
Why is that so ?
7
This article was probably chosen largely as click bait!
5
For me, the public figure who best models civil discourse in these abnormal times is Sen. Elizabeth Warren. Whatever you think of her politics, she's passionate and doesn't mince words, stays focused on substance and avoids personal attacks for their own sake -- and she knows her stuff. I wish I could name someone of equal caliber on the other side of the aisle. Should such a figure emerge, there should be regular televised discussions between them, to model constructive political discourse for the American viewing public. Maybe some of these conversations should be over dinner, to demonstrate that political discussions need not descend into food fights.
22
Easy for white men at an expensive private school to say all this - for them politics is mainly abstraction, maybe a few tax points at the margin.
But why in earth would, say, black lesbians or undocumented immigrants be polite when debating those who would deny their fundamental human rights? It's an absurd expectation.
The degree to which people can easily smile and shake hands when debating politics is the degree to which the friendships with those they debate are more important than what's being debated. That can only apply to privileged centrists.
But why in earth would, say, black lesbians or undocumented immigrants be polite when debating those who would deny their fundamental human rights? It's an absurd expectation.
The degree to which people can easily smile and shake hands when debating politics is the degree to which the friendships with those they debate are more important than what's being debated. That can only apply to privileged centrists.
16
Perhaps it is reasonable to assume that black lesbians and undocumented immigrants possess the capacity for self-restraint, reason and civility? It is rarely easy to smile and shake hands with someone advocating ideas we strongly oppose, but the rational self-mastery inherent in so doing reflects what is best in us--an ideal to which all can and should aspire. To assert that class and race dictate one's capacity for reasoned and civil comportment seems an essentialist argument, and brings to mind the phrase "the soft tyranny of low expectations." Especially given the horrendous example set by our President, surely it is up to us--all of us--to reclaim public discourse and broader norms of civility and decorum.
16
There is certainly no question that certain individuals in certain groups (you've named a couple of them) have more to be angry about, but that fact does make the premise here untrue. No matter who you are, no matter what your beef, you'll "catch a lot more flies with honey that with vinegar" (to quote my sainted father.) The "honey" may be harder to come by; I get that. But, it's a still true, in my experience.
14
Nothing wrong with being civil.
But, a book on etiquette, like this one, is exactly what is wrong with out country when it peddles out the outdated assumption that everyone in this country must adhere to the social mores of white, southern. male, privileged "gentleman."
But, a book on etiquette, like this one, is exactly what is wrong with out country when it peddles out the outdated assumption that everyone in this country must adhere to the social mores of white, southern. male, privileged "gentleman."
7
Going to the opera is not old fashioned!
16
It appears that many NYT commenters could benefit from reading the book.
33
Amen.
4
These comments are supposed to be approved by editors. I'm frankly disappointed that so many nasty, ad hominem attacks on these young men were printed. I expect better from The NY Times.
1
Isn't it supposed to be "To the Manor Born, to the Manner Bred"?
10
Jonathan, kind sir, "to the manner born" comes from Shakespeare's Hamlet. a later version using Manor was either a play on words or a misspelling.
9
I stand corrected, in my orthopedic shoes.
However there does seem to be considerable commentary on the subject. See http://www.word-detective.com/2011/10/to-the-manner-manor-born/
However there does seem to be considerable commentary on the subject. See http://www.word-detective.com/2011/10/to-the-manner-manor-born/
1
Would that this quality of education and pathway to gentility were open to all children in America, not only the sons of privilege.
9
It is. You are aware of financial aid and scholarships I trust. The school is excellent and not as homogenous as you think. Perhaps a little research before you make assumptions would help you a bit.
8
All male and 85% white. It is, most assuredly, "as homogenous as we think."
7
Rules of etiquette are not enough in a post-modern society. To begin with, in polite society it was improper to touch on political issues at most events. The only acceptable way to deal with discord was exclusion. Before the 60s, top universities were apolitical. Sit-ins and other forms of protests banned. In that atmosphere, political debate makes sense in the formal setting of debates, with a moderator and strict rules on both conduct and arguing. Needless to say, fake news are never acceptable. We need a new set of rules. Political correctness is a modern response to setting rules for a diverse community to work together. The reason we are retreating to obsolete books adequate for rigid societies with no social mobility is because the far right is attempting to stop progress. We do not need a handbook, we need acceptance of the new society.
6
I sympathize with and respect the concerns raised in your remarks, Ms. Arouet, but I fear the new society emerging may scarce deserve the name. In my view, there is a very real risk of civilizational decline. President Trump's obvious admiration for strong-man leadership exemplifies this, and threatens to reduce us to a banana republic or an oligarchy, but this is just the most obvious sign. We have one of the highest rates of non-participation in the labor force among able-bodied men of prime working age, out of wedlock births have become routinized, our students fare increasingly poorly in comparison to their international counterparts, cultural illiteracy is appallingly rampant, and habits of grooming and appearance that would once have been deemed tasteless or even freakish are increasingly the norm--in an ironic echo of the barbarians responsible for the sack of Rome, who also favored "body art," bizarre dress and slovenly grooming. If this is the new society, yikes! I support people's right to voice their opinions vigorously, and even in mass protests, vulgar and crass though I find them, but we have much to learn from the emphasis on restraint and decorum of prior generations--a restraint and decorum best exemplified in recent years by two of our most admirable statesmen: Barack Obama and Colin Powell. Surely you'd concede that a people, and a politics, shaped by their example would be much preferable to the current state of affairs. :-)
1
This author's name drew a smile. Voltaire's real name was François-Marie Arouet. Would Voltaire have approved? He certainly wasn't what we call politically correct, so I guess he would have laughed it off.
2
I salute you for keeping these values up. And contrary to some earlier comments, we had similar rule books in Europe in the 70s and 80s, although now, as anyone can see from the news or from reading European news columns, they have been somewhat forgotten.
One rule, for instance, is that a gentleman opens the door for a lady. Believe it or not, that was quite a useful rule In the 1970s and 80s. The 'liberal/liberated' women who would scorn and insult me for 'doing this to them' were generally not worth a second look. They were usually intellectually as complicated and psychologically twisted as their manners were crude. On the other hand, the women who appreciated the gesture where uniformly more refined in their manners and intellect. It was an easy test to determine who was worth going out with.
We need more of this! Hold up the tradition!
One rule, for instance, is that a gentleman opens the door for a lady. Believe it or not, that was quite a useful rule In the 1970s and 80s. The 'liberal/liberated' women who would scorn and insult me for 'doing this to them' were generally not worth a second look. They were usually intellectually as complicated and psychologically twisted as their manners were crude. On the other hand, the women who appreciated the gesture where uniformly more refined in their manners and intellect. It was an easy test to determine who was worth going out with.
We need more of this! Hold up the tradition!
10
Lol. In other words the liberated women had opinions and personalities. The others were pleasantly submissive. You must be 80 years old.
12
Not quite, danny dude,
But just as smart women won't deal with abusive boy friends, I steered clear of abusive girl friends. Let them deal with each other, suited me just fine.
But just as smart women won't deal with abusive boy friends, I steered clear of abusive girl friends. Let them deal with each other, suited me just fine.
Very nice, coming from a tiny college of course. Regarding presidents, I have found it helpful to think of those for whom I did not vote as having gotten the votes of millions of my fellow citizens. That way, unless I want to regard half the country (more or less) as deplorable, I have to show some respect for the chief executive and I wish the same would happen when my choice wins. In this way I avoid hurling vulgarities at any current POTUS or loser, I don't forward e mails containing rants or highly dubious 'facts' from the Internet, I don't indulge in fictive historical analogies. A nod of appreciation to the lads from Hampton-Sidney.
6
Well said. I totally agree. We have lost all modicum of respect and civility. The false news is infuriating as well as ignorant.
HSC men are generally a cut above. When on campus while my son attended, each student we encountered greeted us and unfailingly held open doors for me. It's not perfect, but is a place for conscientious young men seeking a strong liberal arts education and a vigorous curriculum. It served my son extremely well, and he is very open to those different from him and takes the time to listen and understand those with whom he interacts.
HSC men are generally a cut above. When on campus while my son attended, each student we encountered greeted us and unfailingly held open doors for me. It's not perfect, but is a place for conscientious young men seeking a strong liberal arts education and a vigorous curriculum. It served my son extremely well, and he is very open to those different from him and takes the time to listen and understand those with whom he interacts.
7
Of even greater import is the degree to which campus political organizations at institutions such as this are a farce given the lack of real world context their members have usually faced. Most views are inherited and quickly reassessed and changed, unless the incentive to maintain the status quo is also inherited.
4
This is very heartening to read. Some things are timeless, like civility, respect and kindness. I work in a Jesuit college, and it too, teaches such values. I think our students are quite different for the most part from many of their peers, and I'm glad they are. They'll do better in the long run.
14
They'll do better in the long run, and so will the rest of us, as your students assume positions of responsibility and leadership in society. In the community college setting, one focuses on modelling of courtesy and decorum, but whether the instruction is implicit or explicit, it is of great value, individually and collectively.
1
We probably could use a lot of more of this type of civility and the political correctness police would lose their constituency but from the looks of the other comments in this section civility is not what many NY Times readers are after.
8
I wish both President Trump, Middlebury College and UC-Berkeley adopted civility.
13
Open carry fashion suggestion for the Kansas freshman?
4
The attacks on these two young authors embody the breakdown the authors seek to address. They are being attacked for what they are -- or may be -- not for what they say. They are attacked for being male, for being "privileged," for attending a college that is all-male. The vitriol in the comments section for a truly well-meaning and deeply uncontroversial opiion piece is mind-boggling. It is this focus on the person of the speaker rather than the substance of her or his speech that is rending our political fabric and weakening our country. If we can't find a way to talk about ideas, in the light of agreed-upon facts, we're sunk.
30
Admirable; I hope it's contagious.
And don't forget the heroes (and martyrs) for whom the college was named.
And don't forget the heroes (and martyrs) for whom the college was named.
7
Manners and etiquette never really went out of style. Young people just starting their careers are still judged on these standards, even if others dismiss that notion. After a 33-year career in corporate America, I know this to be true. Table manners, how you address others, and how you dress are more important than most people want to admit.
18
Not to take issue with what is being written but were these students referring to 1978 or 1878 for when the civility book was written. I am old enough to have lived in 1978 and the idea of an etiquette book being handed to college freshman is in itself anachronistic even for 1978 or 1948 for that matter. And the clothing suggestons to which the writers allude seem to refer to something prior to 1930.
Do the Freshman also have to wear beanie caps their first year at this college?
Do the Freshman also have to wear beanie caps their first year at this college?
4
If there was a rule book for freshmen at the University of Michigan in 1973, I don't remember it. The only rules I recall were about keeping the dorm exterior doors locked and not letting in anyone you didn't know.
1
I like the gist of the article. Although, it's hard to be "polite" when scratching out an existence, living from day to day, facing eviction, homelessness, etc., having such "recommendations" for respectful dialogue are laudable and should be encouraged. I'm a Dad and some of my kids' peers are open to learning, reading, debate and healthy dialogue. However, I fear that that may be idealistic in a society in which not everyone is in favor of pluralistic dialogue (e.g Sean Hannity, Rush, the guy who got kicked off Fox, and similar info-tainers.) Part of the problem is that many people who hoard wealth (and got it though inheritance, nepotism, class privilege) will blame others who may have inherited problems (poverty, hopelessness, mental illness, etc.) lack access, lack privilege in a society that favors "overcoming" "bootstraps", "getting over it", instead of grieving our mistakes, and making change to do something about it. Again, it's frightening to know that so many leaders and voters are not apparently interested in pluralism that could still be possible. Critical thinking doesn't come without risks. Frightening the people with demagogery is so much easier than building opportunities for constructive dialogue and helpful action.
9
If you could afford to pay full price to put your kid through Harvard, why would you willingly tolerate someone from Baruch sitting in the cubicle next to them?
Thank you to both of you.
Washington folk, "leaders", supposedly and hopefully, on both "sides", need to read this jointly-written article and grow up. Instead we seem to be polarizing towards potential anarchy that will leave behind thoughtful debate and thereby also leave behind both the willingness to listen to the whys of other's viewpoints--AND, through dialogue, to hone our own thoughts.
Oh that this sort of respectful listening and the implicit care for each other might be practiced by Congress, by city officials, and by neighbours and relatives. The modeling of that sort of listening should certainly be in our leaders--as they are, supposedly and hopefully, in nurturing parents.
Thank you.
Washington folk, "leaders", supposedly and hopefully, on both "sides", need to read this jointly-written article and grow up. Instead we seem to be polarizing towards potential anarchy that will leave behind thoughtful debate and thereby also leave behind both the willingness to listen to the whys of other's viewpoints--AND, through dialogue, to hone our own thoughts.
Oh that this sort of respectful listening and the implicit care for each other might be practiced by Congress, by city officials, and by neighbours and relatives. The modeling of that sort of listening should certainly be in our leaders--as they are, supposedly and hopefully, in nurturing parents.
Thank you.
7
Gosh, guys, I hope that you're not being damaged for living in the coming years. Yes, civility is one element of society, but it is almost always a gloss over sincerity, and barrier to communication.
Which is, I think, why civility has departed big business, government, almost everything on the 'net, and, speaking broadly, the educational world at the higher levels. At some point your principles and those of others are in conflict, and you can't choose to be civil when it matters not to others. Maybe ISIS isn't recruiting on your campus just yet...
Which is, I think, why civility has departed big business, government, almost everything on the 'net, and, speaking broadly, the educational world at the higher levels. At some point your principles and those of others are in conflict, and you can't choose to be civil when it matters not to others. Maybe ISIS isn't recruiting on your campus just yet...
Thanks for a good thought piece. Manners are an essential baseline for civil discourse and yet at the very same time they are a common mechanism of oppression. In the late 1700's wealthy Northerners knew that good manners meant that when they spoke with wealthy Southerners they played along and referred to their slaves as "servants." It was bad manners and damaging to the relationship to just state the obvious fact that the person putting dinner on the table was, in fact, enslaved. So, a tough question arises since we need to build functional relationships but we also need to constantly ask ourselves when manners drift into harmful euphemism and moral complacency. I wish I had easy advice here but I am at least happy to see the issue raised. Somewhere between the "manners" of the slave/servant dishonesty and the sight of an angry mob screaming at a college lecturer is probably where we want to land. Part of the genius of the black civil rights movement of the 1950's and early 1960's was that it was scrupulously polite and yet also scrupulously honest about some tough but vital truths.
17
"Seemingly old-fashioned manners came in handy." I believe those words get to the heart of so many of our traumas and crises. Look what we have before us. It's not bad enough that an airline drags a passenger off the plane, causing serous injury, in another airplane episode, a pilot has to intervene physically to break up a fight between two female passengers. We have a national crisis because police officers are killing unarmed people of color and those with mental illness as well as brutally body-slamming females both black and white; we also have a national crisis because parents haven't bothered to teach their children to respect the rights of others, whether it's not using a cellphone in class or physically interfering with a police officer who is trying to make what apparently was a legitimate arrest or routinely crossing into other people's yards or whatever. As a society we need to remember that others have rights, and this article is a good start.
7
As a freshly minted lawyer from New England I travelled south to clerk for a judge who did not grow up with privilege. When I showed up for work one day wearing seersucker (don't remember the color of the socks), he politely explained from his perspective the sociological connotations of that mode of dress. I never wore seersucker again.
1
And what, pray tell, are the sociological connotations of wearing seersucker? It's done to help withstand the heat
5
I think plantation owners and their descendants.
1
I went to Hampden-Sydney. My one question for the authors is how can an institution that honors the likes of General Boykin (Wheat Professor of Leadership) embody the values of civility, etc. that they describe?
3
I'm guessing political civility would be harder to manage if any of you had kids with pre-existing medical conditions.
13
I appreciate the sentiment here, but it provokes a second question: when should civility end? I am sure the authors appreciate that there are limits. No one should shake hands with a person who is robbing them. And no one should shake the hand of a man who robbed friend. The former is cowardice, the latter complicity.
6
Perhaps Donald Trump could learn something from the Guide to Etiquette for the Hampden-Sydney Man." Given his rhetoric and propensity for vulgar insults, he sure needs it... Let's not turn this into a false equivalence for the left and right. I agree that civility is extremely important. Happy to have a dialogue with a "normal" Republican. But Trump and his ilk are not normal. HIs entire presidential run was based on that whole "birther" lie, he literally talked about his erm, size, during a debate, insulted another candidate's wife, etc...Yes, by all means, let's call for civility but let's not forget who is enabling and encouraging the divisiveness of our current climate.
12
What is meant by civility?
Suppose that, in a debate on health care, this comment comes up "The proposal of Professor Krauss is worthwhile, and Professor Krauss is a fine gentleman, but it must be discounted because it is made by an economist and not by a physician."
And this comment "Ms. Frankenschmith's proposal is funkin' stupid, because it considers only office visits and not hospital stays."
The first comment is phrased smoothly, but the point it makes is irrelevant: a proposal should be judged on its merits, no on who made it.
The second comment is phrased crudely, but the point it makes is relevant and central.
Phraseology has nothing to do with civility. Only the second comment is civil.
Suppose that, in a debate on health care, this comment comes up "The proposal of Professor Krauss is worthwhile, and Professor Krauss is a fine gentleman, but it must be discounted because it is made by an economist and not by a physician."
And this comment "Ms. Frankenschmith's proposal is funkin' stupid, because it considers only office visits and not hospital stays."
The first comment is phrased smoothly, but the point it makes is irrelevant: a proposal should be judged on its merits, no on who made it.
The second comment is phrased crudely, but the point it makes is relevant and central.
Phraseology has nothing to do with civility. Only the second comment is civil.
Nonsense. The first comment is an appeal to authority and an attack ad hominem, which any student of rhetoric knows are among the weakest forms of argument. The second comment fails in terms of both ethos, the speaker's efforts to establish good-will and competence, and pathos, by doing a poor job of analyzing the implied audience's emotional or psychological state. Neither is an especially good example of civil discourse. It's more than just having the "facts" on your side--it's knowing how to use the "available means of persuasion," as Aristotle put it. Both fail and I would say what you have created is a pair of "straw men" (to keep the gender demographics of the school under discussion in mind).
5
I'm sure student leaders sought a similar level of collegiality on German campuses in 1932.
8
The philosophy you describe, concerning how to relate to others, assumes a long view of things. Even in the midst of pain and fear and righteous anger, it is possible to step back. Think about how short our time is here, how helpless we are at birth and at death and at so many moments in between--every one of us. Whoever your most powerful human enemies are--they're weak. They suffer. Often alone. Why not at least treat others with basic decency--even or especially when taking a stand? Anything else is just foolishness.
Thank you for writing this. I hope you receive some civil replies.
Thank you for writing this. I hope you receive some civil replies.
3
I applaud your attitudes.
I may even agree on a general level.
Yet, why is it that I read your article and start to hear the voice of The Joker in my ears?
"When the chips are down..."
I may even agree on a general level.
Yet, why is it that I read your article and start to hear the voice of The Joker in my ears?
"When the chips are down..."
1
So to summarize, a population that is 100% male and 84% white doesn't have as many problems accepting a President who brags about sexually assaulting women and is openly racist? While these issues may be ones of polite disagreement for you and your exclusively male and almost exclusively white peers, they are about recognizing the basic humanity of the rest of us and issues that will never be about polite disagreement.
8
"We go to a men’s college, so not surprisingly, the demographic tends to be a little homogeneous," you wrote. Thank you for acknowledging that. You also attend college. Now picture who are watching their lives slipping away, whether they are women, who day after day learn just how unequal we remain; or African American mothers whose worry over their sons increases with every appointment like Jeff Sessions; or an immigrant 20-something-year-old who previously had protections but who now finds herself facing a terrifying future. Do you really expect civility from us anymore? Do we owe you civility?
86
The combination of civility, directness, and the creative, tenacious pursuit of what we want is how we will win the argument for change. When we lose control of our emotions, our message becomes muddied by our unattractive and sometimes destructive behavior. And then people assume that if we can't conduct ourselves with dignity and respect then we don't deserve the dignity and respect of others - or what we are trying to obtain in our process. It affirms the idea that we are not worthy - the idea we are fighting against in the first place. So, yes, if we want to get what we want, we must be smart, effective and civil. Not, emotional, out of control, yelling, screaming, and sometimes destructive masses.
2
Everyone is owed civility.
6
http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2017/05/08/elderly-woman-thrown-pool-man-party/
See link above --our society is losing all semblance of civility --every day we see some heinous act captured live and in color on social media -this opinion piece was just to start a conversation on civil behavior-but here we go turning it into inequality and racism -
See link above --our society is losing all semblance of civility --every day we see some heinous act captured live and in color on social media -this opinion piece was just to start a conversation on civil behavior-but here we go turning it into inequality and racism -
3
Nice idea; tell it to Donald Trump. And I hope there are also rules on your all-male campus about how to interact with women.
79
"A Hampden-Sydney man will behave as a gentleman at all times and all places." - Hampden-Sydney Code of Student Conduct
That's really all there is to it, whether we interact with each other, our professors, or ladies.
That's really all there is to it, whether we interact with each other, our professors, or ladies.
9
the old "speak softly but carry a big stick" dodge, eh?
one imagines those tartan-clad young gents standing astride history, shouting "stop!"
sounds like charm school for suede shoe law firms and white shoe investment banks... all before changing jnto appropriate golf shoes at properly restricted country clubs where everyone can tell the help at a glance.
one imagines those tartan-clad young gents standing astride history, shouting "stop!"
sounds like charm school for suede shoe law firms and white shoe investment banks... all before changing jnto appropriate golf shoes at properly restricted country clubs where everyone can tell the help at a glance.
25
Does the etiquette book say, "don't rape women?" Does it say, "don't take sexual advantage of women who may have drank to much?"
If it doesn't address "manners" with regards to sexual relations, then it's pretty useless to half of the population
If it doesn't address "manners" with regards to sexual relations, then it's pretty useless to half of the population
18
Pretty to ALL the population I wold say. John Mill's essay on the subjection of women hits the nail o the head.
It doesn't say it so crudely, but it has sections devoted towards proper treatment and respect of others, women included.
I would expect the etiquette book probably says absolutely nothing about criminal offences just as Universities should have nothing to do with criminal offences other than to refer them to the criminal justice system.
2
Are we really supposed to believe a couple of wealthy white male bigots? Disgraceful.
It doesn't surprise me they wrote this patronizing article. When you exist in a privilege bubble your entire world view becomes distorted.
It doesn't surprise me they wrote this patronizing article. When you exist in a privilege bubble your entire world view becomes distorted.
17
And thank you for proving the authors' point. As if this point of view requires privilege; as if this sentiment of civility cannot be held by a person of color. As if name-calling really accomplishes anything other than revealing an extremist political bias and to remind us why civility is needed in a democratic and free society in the first place.
3
We don't know that they're bigots. They could be perfectly nice gentlemen.
9
So having manners now makes you a "wealthy white male bigot"?
9
Civility, not just in an exclusive men's college, but in society as a whole is sorely needed. We have seen what a 'take no prisoners' political society yields. Look at whats going on in Washington right now. Look at what passes for discussion right now. Look at what appears in the comments section of the NYT right now.
This does not mean that one must not defend your views, but the tendency of both the left and the right to demonize and accuse the opposition of being sub-human must stop, it is destroying our society.
If you live in a bubble, only associate with those like you and only speak to those who think like you, then you get surprised when life smacks you upside the head. Just ask Hillary Clinton, Just ask the New York Times.
This does not mean that one must not defend your views, but the tendency of both the left and the right to demonize and accuse the opposition of being sub-human must stop, it is destroying our society.
If you live in a bubble, only associate with those like you and only speak to those who think like you, then you get surprised when life smacks you upside the head. Just ask Hillary Clinton, Just ask the New York Times.
27
I wish our current occupant of the White House shared Mr. Ross's allegiance and adherence to civility and integrity.
35
Thank you Thank you Thank you!
Manners, civility and empathy are critical in these chaotic times.
We need this reminder now more than ever.
Manners, civility and empathy are critical in these chaotic times.
We need this reminder now more than ever.
38
Nice, heartfelt sentiments, but perhaps more easily and naturally accomplished with others of one's own socioeconomic class, which I'm guessing that most of the young men at this college are. Politeness and its feigned imitation can also disguise class efforts to demean and oppress. I hope the two are not conflated on this campus, especially not to those who might be "scholarship" students.
14
How to find the dark side.
13
Civility precludes ad hominem attacks, cheap shots, low-blow questions and insulting answers, all of which are the tools of small minds.
45
Ah, the optimism and insularity of youth - thank you for publishing this piece. However, I wish the authors had included the rule in their etiquette book that states, "salt and pepper should be passed together as one item, regardless of which is requested." That's something my school's etiquette guidebook included and no one seems to follow that sage advice anymore. It's also a fitting metaphor for this country - we should try harder to move forward together, not separately.
48
Congratulations, gentlemen, on your civility. You are demonstrating decency that our country would be well-advised to emulate. Conversation and respect are better than denigration and imposition.
Please do not be dissuaded by the carping of some here. They are still in the process of acquiring your maturity.
Please do not be dissuaded by the carping of some here. They are still in the process of acquiring your maturity.
63
Civility and openness to others' ways of thinking is important. But there has to be a limit: If the other side is advocating for hate, fear, and dehumanizes others (illegal immigrants in Trump's case), civility and restraint is not the right response. The only response is unwavering resistance, not giving an inch to these destructive forces.
Thinking back on how the Nazis came to power, I don't think anyone would think that "civility and restraint" was the right approach of the opposition in 1930's Germany. We should learn from history, and some ideas and attitudes do not deserve respect, they deserve only rejection in the strongest terms possible.
Thinking back on how the Nazis came to power, I don't think anyone would think that "civility and restraint" was the right approach of the opposition in 1930's Germany. We should learn from history, and some ideas and attitudes do not deserve respect, they deserve only rejection in the strongest terms possible.
81
What led to Nazi Germany was in part precisely that civility and restraint had long been abandoned in the bare-knuckled fight between extremist political ideologies, i.e. Marxism, anarchism, fascism. The social climate was similar to the one today, with contempt by the extreme Left for the "bourgeois and petit-bourgeois" and its "old-fashioned, repressive" morality, the desire to shock and "épater le bourgeois" by the cultural elites, etc. All of which led to extreme polarisation, violence, and the emergence of a strong populist leader.
More civility and less polarisation might have avoided that outcome.
More civility and less polarisation might have avoided that outcome.
4
Resistance-yes; Rudeness and incivility-no. One does not equal the other and those who claim the right to be rude only set back their cause. Resistance with civility is far more powerful than resistance with incivility. The great progress in Civil Rights since the Civil War (e.g., the 19th Amendment, the Civil Rights Acts of 1957, 1960, and 1964, the Voting Rights Act of 1965, Title IX, the more recent Gay Rights Movement accomplished much of their progress through peaceful, civil resistance (e.g., the teachings of MLK) even in the face of violence than the uncivil and violent resistance espoused by followers of Malcolm X and the Black Panthers. It was not the violent actions on college campuses or of the Weathermen, SDS, and others that ended U.S. involvement in Vietnam; their actions actually helped Nixon get elected and re-elected. Instead, it was growing opposition among the "Silent Majority" that finally forced Nixon in January 1973 (long before Watergate broke) to end U.S. involvement in Vietnam. Those who are rude to others (be they Tea Party activists who shout down liberal speakers or liberal activists who shout down conservative speakers) or react with violence (e.g., recent events at Berkeley) betray the very ideals of the First Amendment that allows them to speak in the first place. Gandhi drove U.K. out of India not by demonizing the English, but through civil discourse and non-violent action. We can't complain about incivility if we participate in it.
5
Stop using Nazi Germany as an example of today. It is nowhere close to how we live today, it is simply ridiculous. I am offended and as a Jew insulted when you demean the holocaust and its victims. Everyone has a right to their own opinion, whether you agree with them or not. Trying to get out of respect for others by debasing their opinions is the mark of a small mind and a weak intellect. You are not a member of the 'resistance', you are a silly person trying to inflate yourself in you little circle of peers. There are no brown shirts and Trump has no Gestapo to come an arrest you in the middle of the night. The real French resistance must find you all tedious in the extreme.
7
Huh. I wonder how you talk to Hampton-Sydney Republicans who voted for a racist, an anti-Hispanic bigot, and a man who installed a White Supremacist and anti-Semite as his director of strategy? And since the election, as anti-Semitic violence in America has almost doubled, and as Trump has made good on his claim to create a "deportation force," what do Democrats on campus say to Hampton-Sydney Republicans? "Have a nice day"? "Nice weather we're having"?
Perhaps Caucasians at Hampton-Sydney feel more comfortable overlooking Trump's bigotry and racism. After all, there are less than 100 African-Americans and Hispanics on campus out of a student body of over a thousand. I wonder what those African-Americans are thinking as they greet students who voted for a blatant racist?
The fury being expressed at Trump and those who support him is well earned. It's time for Americans disgusted at Trump and fearful of his destruction of American democracy to speak out, even if it deflects discourse from seersucker suits and dessert plates.
Perhaps Caucasians at Hampton-Sydney feel more comfortable overlooking Trump's bigotry and racism. After all, there are less than 100 African-Americans and Hispanics on campus out of a student body of over a thousand. I wonder what those African-Americans are thinking as they greet students who voted for a blatant racist?
The fury being expressed at Trump and those who support him is well earned. It's time for Americans disgusted at Trump and fearful of his destruction of American democracy to speak out, even if it deflects discourse from seersucker suits and dessert plates.
127
Your post is an excellent example of the uncivil and ill-manered name-calling Hamden-Syney calls on its students to avoid.
35
Snarky is as snarky does.
Your discourse is a fine example of the manner in which we have become habituated to speaking and against what these young men are writing about. Didn't you learn anything from their op-Ed? You are simply exposing your anti-elitism in a nasty, snarky manner. We have become a nation of nasty, snarky, gun-toting folk. Perhaps a bit of etiquette and elitism wouldn't hurt.
Your discourse is a fine example of the manner in which we have become habituated to speaking and against what these young men are writing about. Didn't you learn anything from their op-Ed? You are simply exposing your anti-elitism in a nasty, snarky manner. We have become a nation of nasty, snarky, gun-toting folk. Perhaps a bit of etiquette and elitism wouldn't hurt.
25
Trump's racism, anti-Semitism, and White Supremacy is not "name calling," it's the truth.
23
Excellent commentary. Just send to two grandsons in high school.
11
Civility and integrity - I love to see those words written in reference to how we might better live in the world of today. The diminishment of those values was something lamented by my late Uncle who lived just shy of a century from 1920 to 2017. Yet, I do find the title of the book ironic - particularly with regard to the
$40,000 a year Hamden-Sydney experience. "To Manner Born, to Manners Bred..." Originally the reference was "To Manor Born" referencing privilege and nobility. Let us hope that civility and integrity in discourse and behavior leads also to heart, compassion, and effective action with, and for, the benefit of those whose lives have not been as fortunate.
$40,000 a year Hamden-Sydney experience. "To Manner Born, to Manners Bred..." Originally the reference was "To Manor Born" referencing privilege and nobility. Let us hope that civility and integrity in discourse and behavior leads also to heart, compassion, and effective action with, and for, the benefit of those whose lives have not been as fortunate.
27
Actually, "to the manor born" is a later corruption/misspelling of the original "to the manner born," which Shakespeare may have been the first to use, meaning that one was destined to be something or act a certain way from birth.
Not sure what your reference to the $40,000 per year figure means -- it is not really high these days. Or was that your point, that this school is over-reaching because it doesn't rise to the level of privilege and nobility?
Not sure what your reference to the $40,000 per year figure means -- it is not really high these days. Or was that your point, that this school is over-reaching because it doesn't rise to the level of privilege and nobility?
2
Sadly, it seems that violation of these rules results in better ratings and more money in a fairly coarse society such as ours has seemed to become under Mr. Trump's rule.
Good luck to the both of you, and I hope your civility rubs off on society in general.
Good luck to the both of you, and I hope your civility rubs off on society in general.
32
Our society became uncivil, with one side shouting at the other and no one listening to anyone with whom they disagree long before tyrant Trump was elected. The internet and the 24 hours cable news shows with their bountiful purely partisan shows contributed greatly to America's slide into the state of politics in which we now find ourselves.
5
Ah, if only Hampton-Sydney can inspire the nation. Good manners and civility are pretty much the same thing. If we are ever to become one nation indivisible again, we must take this inspiration to heart.
38
Good manners is the same as political correctness.
10
Hardly, though it may be considered good manners to speak in a manner that is politically correct. (Others may consider an insistence on political correctness to be a form of bad manners - not the political correctness itself, just the insistence upon it.)
5
At least it used to be. Now political correctness has become distorted into a weapon unto itself.
5
No, they are not, at least not as political correctness is applied in many schools today. Good manners deals with how we say express our opinions. Political correctness, as applied in in many schools, seeks to control not just how we express ourselves, but the thoughts an opinions we express, and even the thoughts we keep to ourselves. Political correctness embraces censorship and seeks to dictate what we think.
19
Please send copies of your booklet and this editorial to members of the house and senate. They could use the education
67
Nice piece. Now hard application: it's terrible manners and morals to offer the odious Charles Murray an honorable platform. It's like inviting a guest into your home to spit in your mother's face. And let's not forget that jefferson davis and robert e. lee are said to have had good manners, except of course when dealing with their slaves.
22
I agree that we could all do with a little more consideration for others, but, having once lived for more than thirty years in the South, where Hampden-Sydney College is located, I can tell you that the southern version of good manners was more often than not (1) a technique for engaging in passive-aggressive behavior, and (2) a way to establish social hierarchy by creating insider and outsider groups ("dress trousers from a family tartan" indeed). This was all clearly a remnant of the social mores of the Old South and slavery. I now live in a small New England town, where people are much friendlier, much more honest, and largely free of the pretense of social class and the gobbled-gook of proper etiquette. I suppose we can take consolation, however, from the fact that when people in these states vote to enact homophobic legislation or to take health care away from the rest of us, they use all the proper forms of good manners while doing it.
191
As a native southerner now in the northern midwest, I find no difference in the levels of interpersonal aggression and lack of integrity. There is a value in agreeing to behave with civility. Having been confronted with intrusive behavior in Boston (where i also lived), rude evangelicals in the South, and
obliviously cacophony where I am now, I dream of a land of quiet reserve and a commitment leave others alone.
obliviously cacophony where I am now, I dream of a land of quiet reserve and a commitment leave others alone.
22
Hampton-Sydney sounds like a throwback to bygone days, but I must admit that its emphasis on civility and etiquette is a welcome remedy for much that ails us.
33
Lucid. Inspiring. Terrific. Thank you.
18
Hampton-Sydney sounds like something of an island and refuge, a place apart and inhabited largely by people who look and sound like one another. The world outside of this campus is a very different place and there might have been more depth to this sincere plea for civil discourse if the authors had persuaded their readers that they understood that fact and were also preparing to move into that world once they graduated.
15
I wish these admirable rules of conduct which cannot be enforced by law are adopted by all.
Recently a group of left leaning citizens who were holding a meeting in the public library were heckled and the meeting disrupted by Tea Party members who had come to the meeting, not to listen to other views, but with the express purpose of disrupting it.
I live in a Republican county so this was not shocking but I expect the same would happen to right leaning citizens in an overwhelming liberal county. Each side demonizes the other.
We have to learn to talk to each other. Excluding the crazy left and the crazy right, those in the middle can find some areas of agreement if we are allowed to meet and have a civil exchange.
Recently a group of left leaning citizens who were holding a meeting in the public library were heckled and the meeting disrupted by Tea Party members who had come to the meeting, not to listen to other views, but with the express purpose of disrupting it.
I live in a Republican county so this was not shocking but I expect the same would happen to right leaning citizens in an overwhelming liberal county. Each side demonizes the other.
We have to learn to talk to each other. Excluding the crazy left and the crazy right, those in the middle can find some areas of agreement if we are allowed to meet and have a civil exchange.
141
Funny, this usually comes to light only when leftists do it.
1
Nice job, boys. Civility will always get you better results.
5
I am not sure "a civil exchange" is the correct response when the government has made a majority of citizens the enemy. France just proved that common sense must rule if government is to be meaningful for all the citizens. That is contradicted by Trump and GOP's view of what having power means. To bludgeon the people you do not respect is not governing as much as it is dictating views and not wanting opposition. More likely in countries without freedom of the press or a constitution that declares the boundaries of government.
Rather nice to exist in a place where incivility, rudeness, ugliness and breaking with all norms is not rewarded with ratings points and better paying media contracts, isn't it ?
81
"During the presidential campaign, the habit of exchanging polite greetings regardless of whether one was “with her” or wearing a Make America Great Again cap kept tensions from coming to a boil."
And now you know how pervasive the political influence of the nytimes editorial line is if every other article has to pay its fee by citing ( and denigrating ) mr. Trump's election, as the embarassing only contemporary example in an otherwise abstract and well-rounded piece.
I've noticed this pattern for some time, by now. Still, it strikes me every time i see the Trump rule applied out of blue, bending the conversation to the monopolizing big political one.
And now you know how pervasive the political influence of the nytimes editorial line is if every other article has to pay its fee by citing ( and denigrating ) mr. Trump's election, as the embarassing only contemporary example in an otherwise abstract and well-rounded piece.
I've noticed this pattern for some time, by now. Still, it strikes me every time i see the Trump rule applied out of blue, bending the conversation to the monopolizing big political one.
9
Sad that our current president is a perfect example of how not to behave.
6
Where do you get denigration and embarrassment in "wearing a MAGA cap" as opposed to "with her"? They both seem equally value-neutral.
8
Nice essay, describing a remnant of an era that even though I grew up in (at least until I was in the 5th grade) I am not sure entirely existed as it does in my memory, where adults, especially parents and teachers, modeled civility in front of children. Unfortunately the hypocrisy of the Vietnam Nam War and the friction necessitated by the civil rights movement's demands for equality (which to many unfortunately felt like a threat to status and wealth) sheared that face away, and unlike any time since, I believe, the Civil War, too many felt they had to shout to be heard. Maybe if took a national struggle like World War II requiring everyone's investment to bring that about, and maybe it will take that again (the environment, an epidemic?) to momentarily restore it.
19
Expressing unconventional opinions should not be discouraged. The underlying problem here isn't that people express opinions that others may find offensive, it's that the listener (and the speaker tbh) never listen to one another. Everyone in America will have different versions of the "ground rules" for conversation so this superficially seems to be an acceptable idea, its rife with racism and classism.
10
Quaint if not treacly, those these aren't simply disagreements to be debated over brandies and cigars after dinner. Lives are on the line in health care and science, and our future survival is at stake in matters of environmental policy and energy. The very civility that these young men cherish are at stake when civil rights are redefined if not reversed. Times have changed, I hope these young men can engage with a changed political and social world.
43
Virgil Starkwell? Really? That is brilliant. And it reminds me of what's going on with the Trump and Kushner clans these days.
2
Barack Obama is the perfect role model for young people to follow. During the eight years of his presidency, he suffered the rudest behavior from Republicans but never stooped to their level of behavior. He has very strong liberal ideals but always treats others with civility and respect, even when they don't seem to deserve it. He deserves the admiration of the American people; he has earned it.
233
I agree that Barack Obama treated others with civility and the nation sorely misses the class displayed by President Obama and Michelle Obama when they ran the White House. Donald Trump has had more scandals in his first 100 days than President Obama had in his 8 years in office. But to suggest that President Obama suffered behavior more rude than George Bush from Democrats who frequently accused him of war crimes, being a war criminal, a murderer, etc., or Democrats who accused President Reagan of nuclear war mongering when he introduced Pershing II nuclear weapons into Europe (which, as history as established, helped lead to a treaty abolishing Intermediate Nuclear Weapons and contributed to the downfall of the U.S.S.R.) is to forget that incivility and a lack of respect has long-tainted American politics. I am not excusing Trump's egregious mysogynist, racist, statements. But, let's be real: liberals and conservatives have long been guilty of incivility. When either side argues that circumstances this time around warrant a show of incivility or disrespect towards others with whom they disagree (along with the inevitable stereotyping that follows it), they are doing nothing more than perpetuating an ever-increasing downward spiral.
3
Well said. There was a time when we were all taught manors by the public school system. Seems that even those lessons can be forgotten. Please keep them front and center in your lives.
29
How correct you are. Civility has never stood in the way of impassioned belief. On the contrary, it elevates that belief. Showing consideration for others and acting with integrity in our personal and professional lives is what most clearly defines who we are.
70
I'm normally a fan of polite political discourse. But when one side is literally advocating physical assault, sexual assault, and deportation of my friends and loved ones, forgive me if I don't put on my Sunday best and talk like a gentleman. Politeness in the face of murderous intent is suicide.
240
I would point out that a gentleman can be polite and firm at the same time.
28
Operative word there is "but."
It might have been a little more honest if the author had acknowledge frankly his contempt for the rule of law.
It might have been a little more honest if the author had acknowledge frankly his contempt for the rule of law.
7
There are quite a few on the "other side" who advocate physical assault as well.
3
Though quaint, yes, and certainly outdated in places (dress for the opera has definitely become more optional) this country does badly need some of those lessons. Democracy itself cannot survive in an atmosphere where "compromise" is considered a dirty word, where increasing numbers believe that the opposition is evil, and where any politician working across the aisle is seen as a traitor. Let's hope that you gentlemen take this part of your education seriously; carry it out into the world; and influence those around you to the good.
136
Rarely disagree with A-M H, but extreme civility and utter savagery have historically been twinned. Or maybe I don't understand World War II...
1
Compromise means you really don't believe what you say you do.
What if the opposition IS evil? It is not the people distressed by the prospect of ripping health care away from as many as 24 million citizens who are killing off democracy.