And to Name Withheld about telling your daughters where there genetics came from- DO IT NOW. For several reasons-if you think this curious daughter isn't going to find out you are wrong! The DNA Detectives fb page has over 30000 members, so many they had the split off the donor conceived to their own page. The DOnor Sibling Registry over 50K members. It will not go well if you continue to lie. Your excellent spouse is right and if he is man enough to man-up about this so should you. Second, for the purposes of health 23andMe with give your daughter health reports that may include info not genetically shared with their dad that may put your girls in danger. Third, sperm banks make mistakes and lie about it. What if the bank you went to mixed up samples? This could cause health risk also and in NY State where records cannot be retrieved more than 25 years after a live birth it could be important to clear it up now.
15
Some great ethical issues today.
Oh, K....
Why not take this incredibly twisted and confusing story to the Sleep Therapy Department of a Hollywood soap opera producer? That's where it belongs.
Elder Abuse
With the moral value of human decency in heart, if an elder cannot stand up for themselves then someone must stand up for them. IMO assistance would have been the thing to do including offering your seat while, as tempting as it might be, using restraint in excoriating his abuser and/or publicly humiliating her which is not your place.
DNA - OMG!
Anyone who has daughters would agree that confidence in their identity builds strong self-esteem which is the most important thing to imprint upon young girls. Being honest about your conception difficulties is not only a great teachable moment - as they may face the SAME problem one day - but educational in solving the DNA misdirection. Surely they will understand and with any luck they might even seek their biological father or even become higher academics in Genetics. Nothing wrong (or dangerous) with being contextually honest with your kids. IMHO.
Oh, K....
Why not take this incredibly twisted and confusing story to the Sleep Therapy Department of a Hollywood soap opera producer? That's where it belongs.
Elder Abuse
With the moral value of human decency in heart, if an elder cannot stand up for themselves then someone must stand up for them. IMO assistance would have been the thing to do including offering your seat while, as tempting as it might be, using restraint in excoriating his abuser and/or publicly humiliating her which is not your place.
DNA - OMG!
Anyone who has daughters would agree that confidence in their identity builds strong self-esteem which is the most important thing to imprint upon young girls. Being honest about your conception difficulties is not only a great teachable moment - as they may face the SAME problem one day - but educational in solving the DNA misdirection. Surely they will understand and with any luck they might even seek their biological father or even become higher academics in Genetics. Nothing wrong (or dangerous) with being contextually honest with your kids. IMHO.
17
#1: Students of history will be reminded of the XYZ affair.
4
LW1: Be kind and keep quiet about your liaison. Your friend needs solace, not further drama.
LW3: Your daughters deserve to know the truth--may already suspect--and they're old enough to understand that they were brought into this world with love. No matter the genetic links, you raised them and you are their parents. Yes, your husband should be tested, too. I admire him for wanting to start talking about this.
My family has used 23andme. The ethnic and medical results were interesting, but not really surprising. Family history proven by science. We recommend these tests to other amateur genealogists and people interested in human migration patterns over the millennia. great stuff.
LW3: Your daughters deserve to know the truth--may already suspect--and they're old enough to understand that they were brought into this world with love. No matter the genetic links, you raised them and you are their parents. Yes, your husband should be tested, too. I admire him for wanting to start talking about this.
My family has used 23andme. The ethnic and medical results were interesting, but not really surprising. Family history proven by science. We recommend these tests to other amateur genealogists and people interested in human migration patterns over the millennia. great stuff.
14
#3. The genetic testing services like Ancestry.com and 23andMe (which is NOT $200, btw) vary in their ability to accurately identify ethnic background. However, they very accurately connect you to people with whom you are genetically linked. It is only a matter of time before this daughter finds out that she is linked to biological relatives that she never knew existed. Better that these parents share their daughters' conception in a loving, supportive and open way, before they find out through other means.
Home DNA testing will change the secrecy that often surrounds adoption, donor insemination, and other methods of becoming a parent. Speaking from much, much experience...There are many of us out there who have been surprised by what we found out, and many more who will be.
And to the person who mentioned 23andMe's lawsuit: that was related to whether or not they can legally perform genetic disease testing, not ancestry.
Home DNA testing will change the secrecy that often surrounds adoption, donor insemination, and other methods of becoming a parent. Speaking from much, much experience...There are many of us out there who have been surprised by what we found out, and many more who will be.
And to the person who mentioned 23andMe's lawsuit: that was related to whether or not they can legally perform genetic disease testing, not ancestry.
16
Pecan talks about this biological imperative to push as many genes of ones own into the next generations. Doesnt anyone see that this is destroying our environment and driving millions into abject poverty? How about everyone using donor sperm and eggs randomized. Then people would have kids because they want kids and want to raise them. If randomized we could eliminate racism in a generation. We would not have men like in sub Saharan Africa or India that think having 8 or 10 children is a smart idea and their women afraid of contraception for fear they will be beaten or worse. We would not have women in India having donor eggs in their seventh and eighth decades. Maybe the human race needs to rethink how we reproduce given the limited resources on the planet. Not controlling population and talking about global warming just seems absurd. Maybe the woman in this case just needs to tell the kids the truth and tell them it is OK and that love should not be connected to some sort of genetic material just as it should not connected to color of skin or hair. Moving to full bore artificial insemination could break patriarchy once and for all.
5
Hi, as!
You say: "We would not have men like in sub Saharan Africa or India that think having 8 or 10 children is a smart idea . . ."
It isn't only dark-skinned men who want lots of children. Here are 256 million leads to information that could enlighten you:
https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=do+american+men+want+lots+of+children
You say: "We would not have men like in sub Saharan Africa or India that think having 8 or 10 children is a smart idea . . ."
It isn't only dark-skinned men who want lots of children. Here are 256 million leads to information that could enlighten you:
https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=do+american+men+want+lots+of+children
7
#3-Yes, tell the daughter ASAP. She has a right to know her origins and needs to hear it from her parents. Furthur testing can follow, as well as more research into the reproductive tech used.
9
Elder abuse is not uncommon in part because caregivers are so abused by our society.
This scenario, a middle-aged woman caring for an elderly man is very common. It is also common for the caregiver to be attending her charge 7 days a week, 24 hours a day, often with an income level below average. Decent human beings, care givers, are terribly injured by this stress and strain. Desperate, exhausted and isolated, they are a silent, unseen, abused group, mostly women, sacrificing their own lives and their health, (check out the statistics), to care for a loved, but often difficult, family member. It is an heroic act.
Our society chooses to cast a blind eye to this fact: If a elderly person is not supported by a family member and must be cared for in an institutional facility costs may exceed $100,00 per year, money coming from taxpayers. The woman in this instance may well be saving us this cost by her personal sacrifice. It is disgraceful to abuse caregivers in this way.
I wish that a portion of my tax dollars was used to make sure such caregivers had security, rest, and medical care. Anyone doing full time care-giving should have our support. They are providing a critical service and saving us money.
Perhaps, the truly charitable response before inserting ones self into the complex relationship between the caregiver and her charge, or calling Protective Services would be to ask the clearly stressed woman if you could assist her in any way.
This scenario, a middle-aged woman caring for an elderly man is very common. It is also common for the caregiver to be attending her charge 7 days a week, 24 hours a day, often with an income level below average. Decent human beings, care givers, are terribly injured by this stress and strain. Desperate, exhausted and isolated, they are a silent, unseen, abused group, mostly women, sacrificing their own lives and their health, (check out the statistics), to care for a loved, but often difficult, family member. It is an heroic act.
Our society chooses to cast a blind eye to this fact: If a elderly person is not supported by a family member and must be cared for in an institutional facility costs may exceed $100,00 per year, money coming from taxpayers. The woman in this instance may well be saving us this cost by her personal sacrifice. It is disgraceful to abuse caregivers in this way.
I wish that a portion of my tax dollars was used to make sure such caregivers had security, rest, and medical care. Anyone doing full time care-giving should have our support. They are providing a critical service and saving us money.
Perhaps, the truly charitable response before inserting ones self into the complex relationship between the caregiver and her charge, or calling Protective Services would be to ask the clearly stressed woman if you could assist her in any way.
34
The overwhelming and daunting frustrations of caregiving -- of which i know more than i care to discuss -- do not excuse abuse and shame. But I agree that this rich nation would leave old people to die in confusion and misery to save a few tax dollars.
35
Yes, it's stressful to care-give, and it can be exhausting. But while we're empathizing, let's not forget to realize we could also become the elder who is scolded and left emotionally uncared for, and sometimes physically harmed as well--maybe first just a pinch or two, or a stumble unheeded, and then worse, as we know happens shamefully often. Understanding why meanness or cruelty might occur is fine; leaving human beings to live under it every day is not.
26
#3 - I'm pretty sure your daughter suspects something, and that is why she had the testing done.
23andMe is not cheap (~USD 200). If your 21 year old is spending that kind of money on genetic testing, she has questions that need answering, and she doesn't know how or feel comfortable asking. At this point, she's probably pretty darn sure her dad is not her bio-dad, and probably assumes something more sordid than low sperm count.
Tell her the truth ASAP.
23andMe is not cheap (~USD 200). If your 21 year old is spending that kind of money on genetic testing, she has questions that need answering, and she doesn't know how or feel comfortable asking. At this point, she's probably pretty darn sure her dad is not her bio-dad, and probably assumes something more sordid than low sperm count.
Tell her the truth ASAP.
56
Don't agree about the daughter's suspisions. From what I hear from my daughter 23andme is just a trendy thing to do. Also it isn't the most reliable way to check on your heritage. Very murky science going on in that area.
To bring all this out into the open in a reliable way have the entire family go to a genetisist and have the real test. Very pricey, but much more solid science.
To bring all this out into the open in a reliable way have the entire family go to a genetisist and have the real test. Very pricey, but much more solid science.
12
As far as the DNA test goes: if mom doesn't tell the truth, the daughter will simply suspect that mom had a sex partner who was not dad.
69
#3.
Your daughters have a right to information about their ancestors, including the "donor" who fathered them.
Who is he? Probably the doctor who ran the clinic. Another of those con artists was arrested just the other day.
It's a common practice. Given the biological imperative to send as many genes into the next generation as possible, why would a doctor NOT use his own sperm to impregnate his gullible patients? They want to believe it was a young medical student who "donated" (sold) his sperm, but the chances are, it was a nasty old doctor with dozens, maybe hundreds, of offspring.
Your daughters deserve the truth about their history and a warning about mating with men who may be their brothers.
https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=doctor+used+his+own+sperm
Your daughters have a right to information about their ancestors, including the "donor" who fathered them.
Who is he? Probably the doctor who ran the clinic. Another of those con artists was arrested just the other day.
It's a common practice. Given the biological imperative to send as many genes into the next generation as possible, why would a doctor NOT use his own sperm to impregnate his gullible patients? They want to believe it was a young medical student who "donated" (sold) his sperm, but the chances are, it was a nasty old doctor with dozens, maybe hundreds, of offspring.
Your daughters deserve the truth about their history and a warning about mating with men who may be their brothers.
https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=doctor+used+his+own+sperm
8
"and a warning about mating with men who may be their brothers."
Correction: Half brothers.
Correction: Half brothers.
4
Have I landed in Dear Abby land?Come on now.
34
Dear Abby was a significant column for its time. She used a lot of native common sense in response to readers' not uncommon problems. The answers were well written, often witty and notably succinct. I would guess helpful, as well.
Today's column addresses romance, fidelity, old age, elder abuse, compassion, reproduction, parenting, heredity and the question of one's origins. Not substantive enough for you? The columnist is not Abby but it's not 1956 it's 2016 so we have a philosopher with a concern for ethics tackling the human condition. Seems timely and appropriate to me.
Today's column addresses romance, fidelity, old age, elder abuse, compassion, reproduction, parenting, heredity and the question of one's origins. Not substantive enough for you? The columnist is not Abby but it's not 1956 it's 2016 so we have a philosopher with a concern for ethics tackling the human condition. Seems timely and appropriate to me.
23
Sabrina, you have no "obligation" to disclose details of your past relationships to anyone, unless there is some current repercussion that makes that necessary (such as an illness incurred). And even then minimal information is required. You do not get to break other people's confidences or tear up relationships out of some weird sense that everything you've ever done (or that others have) is everyone's business. It is not. Part of being grown up is knowing when to let the past be past.
41
The advice about S and K may be the stupidest advice to date by this alleged Ethicist. Confession is designed to make the confessor feel better; here Sabrina D. may make herself feel better by blabbing, but K certainly will feel worse. Why would Sabrina D want to butt in at all? Is she still attracted to S? Why would she want to ruin the relationship between S and K?
What terrible advice. Truly unpardonably bad.
On the second question, an approach might have been to find an opportunity to approach the caregiver more privately. A better approach might have been to approach the person using the walker directly and offer assistance--that at least might have made the caregiver compare her conduct with yours, with possibly good results.
On the third question, I have no faith in these kit-type genetic tests ever since friends who own a 7 pound dog received the result that her dog was a great Dane.
What terrible advice. Truly unpardonably bad.
On the second question, an approach might have been to find an opportunity to approach the caregiver more privately. A better approach might have been to approach the person using the walker directly and offer assistance--that at least might have made the caregiver compare her conduct with yours, with possibly good results.
On the third question, I have no faith in these kit-type genetic tests ever since friends who own a 7 pound dog received the result that her dog was a great Dane.
22
To the 1st LW, I say there is no need to share of all her surmises and speculations with anyone, unless they all thrive on oodles of drama and emotional outrage. Some people do enjoy making scenes; if so, reveal all of your thoughts and actions at all times, step back, and watch the fun.
To the 2nd LW, if you are someone who can carry off a friendly approach to people who are struggling, I heartily recommend offering help to those who may need it. I've lost track of the number of times that I've approached someone to basically say that it looks like they are having a little bit of difficulty, and can I hold the door for them, or can I help with this or that. It takes just a moment, has never led to any angry or offended remarks, and helps to ease a problem, rather than just having me fret all evening about whether I saw something darker. My dad always did this, and I suppose I learned it from him. As I grow older, I curtail my offers of help to bright streets and public places. I'm friendly but not foolish.
As to LW 3, my heart goes out to you. The availability of DNA testing (although the OTC is not reliable) is moving us to a narrowing of the definition of parenthood that, in my opinion, is thinner and more impoverished. I totally oppose the advice to get more tests and oppose the advice to disclose the sperm donor, and I'd stick flat out with the truth - you are our daughter, and we are from Ireland. That's the only truth that matters, isn't it?
To the 2nd LW, if you are someone who can carry off a friendly approach to people who are struggling, I heartily recommend offering help to those who may need it. I've lost track of the number of times that I've approached someone to basically say that it looks like they are having a little bit of difficulty, and can I hold the door for them, or can I help with this or that. It takes just a moment, has never led to any angry or offended remarks, and helps to ease a problem, rather than just having me fret all evening about whether I saw something darker. My dad always did this, and I suppose I learned it from him. As I grow older, I curtail my offers of help to bright streets and public places. I'm friendly but not foolish.
As to LW 3, my heart goes out to you. The availability of DNA testing (although the OTC is not reliable) is moving us to a narrowing of the definition of parenthood that, in my opinion, is thinner and more impoverished. I totally oppose the advice to get more tests and oppose the advice to disclose the sperm donor, and I'd stick flat out with the truth - you are our daughter, and we are from Ireland. That's the only truth that matters, isn't it?
8
No. What you wish were true is false.
17
Lying about this will damage trust with the daughters; tell the truth.
Their parents are still their parents, just possibly not 100% genetically. Parents of adopted children are still the parents; gay people are still parents if they used a surrogate - the definition of parents is the presence, love, commitment and time given to form a family.
Their parents are still their parents, just possibly not 100% genetically. Parents of adopted children are still the parents; gay people are still parents if they used a surrogate - the definition of parents is the presence, love, commitment and time given to form a family.
17
DNA is the new tool of adoptees. They do the DNA testing to find genetic relatives, because their "right to know" trumps the birth mother's expectation of privacy. Read genealogy DNA FB pages. Some confronted fathers who didn't know they had a child. Some show up on the mother's doorstep, ruining her life (BTW, she deserves it for not wanting to find them). Some are very militant. I did it. My husband did it. We hoped to find European relatives. For people looking to find those types of connections, and find relatives in other countries, it's a great tool, and rather fun. Because of the adoptee use, I look for some type of regulation at some point, if nothing more than a disclaimer about adoptee use.
I can, however, tell several stories of people who have PERFECT paperwork trails, but do not have DNA matches into the surname projects to which they belong. An ethical dilemma ignored by lineage societies who ignore DNA, but demand paperwork trails. But, clearly, there was an informal adoption or a child without the biological father listed on a birth certificate. People also lied, particularly during WWI and WWII. Germanic names were Anglicized. Independent of war, people wanted names to sound "American," and/or to hid ethnicity. Unless the husband and daughter compare results.... there could be many reasons why she doesn't have the expected ethnicity. Hasn't see seen the Ancestry's lederhosen commercial?
I can, however, tell several stories of people who have PERFECT paperwork trails, but do not have DNA matches into the surname projects to which they belong. An ethical dilemma ignored by lineage societies who ignore DNA, but demand paperwork trails. But, clearly, there was an informal adoption or a child without the biological father listed on a birth certificate. People also lied, particularly during WWI and WWII. Germanic names were Anglicized. Independent of war, people wanted names to sound "American," and/or to hid ethnicity. Unless the husband and daughter compare results.... there could be many reasons why she doesn't have the expected ethnicity. Hasn't see seen the Ancestry's lederhosen commercial?
5
Always amusing to see the word "doorstep" in rants about adopted people and the need for "regulation".
6
Yes, the adoptees' right to know does trump the right of the birth mother for one very simple reason: the adoptee had absolutely no choice whatsoever, and the birth mother did. She may have been in a terrible position which deserves a great deal of compassion and understanding. She may have felt she did not have a choice. But she was not the most powerless one; i.e., she was not the infant. Not ever knowing who you came from and who your own mother is even as an adult adds to the original injury of being separated from your mother, a primal wound. We are mammals; the biological mother and child share a primal bond even if the child is separated from the mother at birth. When that bond is broken, the loss is horrific and the injury is further exacerbated by secrecy. Many adoptees search because they are driven to try to discover themselves and heal this terrible wound that secrecy leaves festering under the ground.
6
#1 - I need a chart to sort out who's doing or has done whom here.
#2 - Probably the man's daughter. How sharper than a serpent's tooth it is to have a thankless child or something like that.
#3 - A family discussion is required here. I have never understood the point of knowing the percentages of one's DNA but these services are extremely popular so what do I know?
#2 - Probably the man's daughter. How sharper than a serpent's tooth it is to have a thankless child or something like that.
#3 - A family discussion is required here. I have never understood the point of knowing the percentages of one's DNA but these services are extremely popular so what do I know?
13
As to.the first issue. keep your mouth shut. what they dont know wont hurt them
As to the second issue. wait for the woman to.leave the theater follow her out and tell.her off.
As to the third issue just tell her the genetic test os wrong they dont know what they are talking about. there is always a scandal involving testing companies that you can point to
As to the second issue. wait for the woman to.leave the theater follow her out and tell.her off.
As to the third issue just tell her the genetic test os wrong they dont know what they are talking about. there is always a scandal involving testing companies that you can point to
4
Telling people off always sounds good, and sometimes feels good, but it rarely has a positive effect.
42
True. If the desired result is to change or improve someone else's behavior knowing how to talk to them is key and close to an art where I'm concerned.
8
SECRETS If S and K and you all three kept your relationships secret at the time you were involved with S, then logically you had not violated anybody's trust. That was what S did if she was involved simultaneously with both you and K at the same time. There's an old saying, the better part of valor is discretion. By omitting mention of your relationship with S, you choose to show both valor and discretion. At some point should K ask you if you were ever involved with S, you could acknowledge the fact and explain why you thought it best not to mention the episode as it could have caused both of you needless emotional distress. But with secrets there are no guarantees. Everything in life involves risks The greater the intimacy involved, the greater the risk. Clearly S seems to care little for the feelings and needs of others. In the end you may be glad that you and your friend both ended your relationships with her.
13
The situation with Sabrina, K and S is better handled on one of the daytime talk shows.
54
An observation, common to stories 1 and 2: Over the past generation or so, we we have become a share all / tell all culture. Whether that is talking to others or posting on social media, facets of our lives that used to be private are no longer. As another individual on here noted, you really shouldn't be talking about your sex life with a wide circle. But, driven by a change in cultural mores, sex is supposedly no big deal. But our emotions haven't changed and learning of betrayal still hurts.
As for story 2, parents didn't use to talk about how their children were conceived. Your parents are those who raise you, not whose sperm may have turned you into a zygote. As the product of natural reproduction (I assume, lol) I'll never be able to appreciate the emotional dynamics of artificial insemination / IVF, just like I can't really understand what goes with adoption. I suppose science may make sharing such info w/your children inevitable at a certain age, but be prepared for some emotional change in the relationship, just as you should if you learn your friend hooked up with your ex.
As for story 2, parents didn't use to talk about how their children were conceived. Your parents are those who raise you, not whose sperm may have turned you into a zygote. As the product of natural reproduction (I assume, lol) I'll never be able to appreciate the emotional dynamics of artificial insemination / IVF, just like I can't really understand what goes with adoption. I suppose science may make sharing such info w/your children inevitable at a certain age, but be prepared for some emotional change in the relationship, just as you should if you learn your friend hooked up with your ex.
4
Always be careful of tests like 23andMe. They catalogue your "biologic identity" by where traits they find in your genetic code are most likely to be found. That doesn't mean that that is where you are actually found! For instance, while Tay Sachs disease is most commonly found among Ashkenazi Jews, they are not the only ones who have the genetic markers for it.
There is also some question about the accuracy of the genetic mapping of companies like these as well. What tests are they using and how finely are they doing the actual mapping? If you receive a result that says "Native American", it's useless - that would be like saying "European." There were at least a hundred "Native American" tribes and they were not a genetically homogeneous group of people. Likewise for results that say "African".
There is also some question about the accuracy of the genetic mapping of companies like these as well. What tests are they using and how finely are they doing the actual mapping? If you receive a result that says "Native American", it's useless - that would be like saying "European." There were at least a hundred "Native American" tribes and they were not a genetically homogeneous group of people. Likewise for results that say "African".
8
I agree and I think Mr. Appiah's recommendation that the father be genetically tested before discussing the daughter's conception should clarify the situation. Mr. Appiah's responses to all the questions were excellent.
3
Susan is right. Services such as 23 and Me are notoriously unreliable at accurately predicting an individuals background (according to geneticists). Read what the experts say about it.
1
Tay Sachs is also found in Cajun and some Meditteranean populations.
LW2 should not be encouraged to conflate exasperation with abuse.
Dealing with elderly relatives is frequently a mix of frustration and exasperation as they can be very resistant to reason. Some days you can laugh it off, others, not so much.
Dealing with elderly relatives is frequently a mix of frustration and exasperation as they can be very resistant to reason. Some days you can laugh it off, others, not so much.
19
Per the older gentleman, offer a seat. Politely intervene. Even a name could have led you to file an anonymous complaint. That said, my mother-in-law is a master manipulator. She can instantly don the frail elderly lady persona. She does it for gifts. She friends ONLY people who perceive her financial situation to be less than what it is, and then take her to dinner or give her gifts. My FIL, who has refused homes with each child, is afraid of her, and does nothing. He told me he is afraid if he protests, she will have a mental meltdown. Her father and brother had mental health issues, so she emotionally blackmails him. Her family physician told us we were over reacting, until she faked a suicide attempt for attention, and admitted it. When we take her to dinner, she makes us appear to be horrible people. After watching her, I try to assess a situation, but I will still call authorities because a mistake is better than not calling. I'm just not as judgemental. I don't know what happens when no one is looking. I know elder abuse is a serious issue, but I also know that elders abuse.
19
Sounds exactly like my late husband. He milked his self-induced terminal illness for every possible drop and went out of his way to make me look bad in public.
7
#2 The care giver may have been exasperated with &/or hostile to her charge, but I can't see that she did anything illegal.
1
In response to the genetic-testing question, I suggest you see https://xkcd.com/1706/
4
The witness to the elderly man and his woman escort asks if she should have spoken to the woman. In answer, the author suggests she might speak to the man, and dismiss any blowback from the woman. Good advice; there's an underlying issue that should be made plain: The man is an autonomous adult, and may be addressed, and extended courtesies, in public just as any other adult might be. He is not the property of his companion, and should not be treated that way by bystanders.
76
If Sabrina was friends with both K. and S., how did she not know that they were a thing? If K. asks questions about Sabrina and S., answer them truthfully - but only about the Sabrina side of things. The Sabrina side of things is her story to tell. If Sabrina is accurately portraying the situation, she did her due diligence, as was also played by S.
The old man in the theatre may be there of his own accord, and may prefer the higher-up seat. That could be the impetus for the younger woman's frustration. Act concerned and offer to help, but be polite, NOT ACCUSATORY. If the old man is being abused, accusing his abuser without removing her may very well make things worse for him.
If the daughter thinks she has no Irish in her, and that her father is Irish, she will at least consider that she is the mailman's daughter (or that she was adopted, depending on similarities to Ms. Withheld). Her younger sister will have the same thoughts at some point. Luckily for Ms. Withheld, the ice has already been broken. Tell them the story, and maybe do a paternity test just to settle any doubt (even without "a trace of Irish in her", she might actually be his daughter. Do the same with the other daughter. Doing nothing is probably the worst choice. Whatever they're thinking is probably worse than the truth.
The old man in the theatre may be there of his own accord, and may prefer the higher-up seat. That could be the impetus for the younger woman's frustration. Act concerned and offer to help, but be polite, NOT ACCUSATORY. If the old man is being abused, accusing his abuser without removing her may very well make things worse for him.
If the daughter thinks she has no Irish in her, and that her father is Irish, she will at least consider that she is the mailman's daughter (or that she was adopted, depending on similarities to Ms. Withheld). Her younger sister will have the same thoughts at some point. Luckily for Ms. Withheld, the ice has already been broken. Tell them the story, and maybe do a paternity test just to settle any doubt (even without "a trace of Irish in her", she might actually be his daughter. Do the same with the other daughter. Doing nothing is probably the worst choice. Whatever they're thinking is probably worse than the truth.
16
Re K and S: As a general rule- do not talk about your sexual relationships with friends, relatives, friends of relatives, relatives of friends, imaginary friends, imaginary relatives, period. Life is not a sitcom--your sexual relationships are only the business of you and your then sexual partner. If you want to disclose--get a therapist who outside your circle. Write a paper diary. Put a letter in the bottle. Oversharing is immature, inconsiderate, narcissistic.
119
Couldn't agree more. The Ethicist appears to have watched a few to many re-runs of old "Friends" episodes.
33
LW1 - your friend is in pain. Why would you tell her something that will make her feel worse?
22
I'm a little bothered about how fast everyone seems SURE that there was elder abuse going on, and based on that one vignette that there was a need for intervention including maybe notifying authorities. Maybe the old man refuses to acknowledge his own symptoms of declining health and insisted on an outing when his condition argued against it. Maybe letting him walk slowly was already a supreme act of patience, though not without some exasperation. Maybe that scene plays out a lot on the journey towards his incapacitation. Maybe the old man is the one who wanted to sit in the back of the theater; many of us hate sitting too close which is where disabled seats usually are. Maybe the companion was already doing her best. You never know.
My father in law was the most crotchety contrary nasty and abusive hospice patient who ever lived. He would send his 24-hour caregivers home and then fall out of bed and call the fire department to break into the house to come pick him up. He insulted his caregivers in an endless tirade of nasty racist slur and personal attack. He refused to be spoon fed but if given his way he would get baby food all over the bed, again. His body was broke but his mind wasn't, but it was so focused on denying his own decline that he was a miserable challenge to deal with. When resisted, a public fight would follow. It was always a case of picking the day's battles. Onlookers should be careful before they jump to conclusions about abuse.
My father in law was the most crotchety contrary nasty and abusive hospice patient who ever lived. He would send his 24-hour caregivers home and then fall out of bed and call the fire department to break into the house to come pick him up. He insulted his caregivers in an endless tirade of nasty racist slur and personal attack. He refused to be spoon fed but if given his way he would get baby food all over the bed, again. His body was broke but his mind wasn't, but it was so focused on denying his own decline that he was a miserable challenge to deal with. When resisted, a public fight would follow. It was always a case of picking the day's battles. Onlookers should be careful before they jump to conclusions about abuse.
103
My MIL is one of those people who can snap into frail old lady mode in an instant, and she is far from that image. She terrorized her children, and continues to emotionally blackmail her husband. We'd not been married that long when she faked a suicide attempt for attention. Unfortunately, she hurt no one, and didn't swallow pills. Lying has no repercussions, even with Adult Protective Services. He was offered a home with each child, and despite their begging, stayed with her, while admitting he was afraid of her. He seemed more afraid of what she would do to him if he went to stay with a child. The social worker told us it was the classic domestic violence relationship. Fear of the unknown was greater than the security of a known terrible relationship.
They are VERY financially secure, but she buys cheap clothing, and convinces everyone that they are on very limited incomes in order to get gifts. She is a con artist. But, when we go to dinner, I am embarrassed, because I know others must think we are guilty of abuse. I'd welcome a complaint from an outsider. It would help document her ability to manipulate.
They are VERY financially secure, but she buys cheap clothing, and convinces everyone that they are on very limited incomes in order to get gifts. She is a con artist. But, when we go to dinner, I am embarrassed, because I know others must think we are guilty of abuse. I'd welcome a complaint from an outsider. It would help document her ability to manipulate.
15
My 87-year-old mother routinely exaggerates her "suffering" to get sympathy, especially from strangers.
Some elderly people are just plain ornery. I know of a woman who abused her daughter all her life, including when the mother was terminally ill with breast cancer. It was a relief to the daughter/caregiver when the old lady's medical needs made it necessary for her to enter a residential hospice facility. But she was so abusive to everyone she came in contact with there that the doctor decided she wasn't terminally ill after all and kicked her out. She died at home two weeks later. Her daughter is now seeing a bereavement counselor, but she's not mourning the loss of her mother. She's grieving the happiness her mother deprived her of all those years.
Some elderly people are just plain ornery. I know of a woman who abused her daughter all her life, including when the mother was terminally ill with breast cancer. It was a relief to the daughter/caregiver when the old lady's medical needs made it necessary for her to enter a residential hospice facility. But she was so abusive to everyone she came in contact with there that the doctor decided she wasn't terminally ill after all and kicked her out. She died at home two weeks later. Her daughter is now seeing a bereavement counselor, but she's not mourning the loss of her mother. She's grieving the happiness her mother deprived her of all those years.
17
Belligerence is a common symptom to old age mental decline/Alzheimer's, or maybe just the general situation of being debilitated. However In the instances described by LW2 I suspect that they younger person is generally an angry abusive jerk.
7
I need a white board with markers to follow these types of articles. Cant figure them out. Too fluid
23
I used 23 and me, to search for a long lost half sibling (not found) based on a hidden family-looking picture from 1930, of my dad, an infant, and an unknown woman
I was hoping maybe a relative would also have 'registered' his / her DNA in reciprocal search. Not yet. I found this photo thirty years ago.
(Other of my family corners have a hidden secret wife, found in marriage license archives)
23 and me has a very expansive definition of relatedness, to my tastes, and followup contacts have shown no obvious connection
=
'rights' are very elastic and subjective.
I see no reason to NOT tell kids, there are biological benefits, but the genetic testing benefits can be achieved without ancestral lineage
I have a blood-clotting genetic predisposition, learned the hard way; ancestral information had clotting but not genetics, and would not have helped that, unless I was very rich for various testing preventatively. These days we do pediatric testing for things like that
BUT there is a cancer connection, skipping generations, I found that in death certificates,
maybe a benefit,
local call
=
Tell the kids?
There are quite a few surrogacy kids nearby, they grew up, knowingly, matter of fact,
times change, and values
I was hoping maybe a relative would also have 'registered' his / her DNA in reciprocal search. Not yet. I found this photo thirty years ago.
(Other of my family corners have a hidden secret wife, found in marriage license archives)
23 and me has a very expansive definition of relatedness, to my tastes, and followup contacts have shown no obvious connection
=
'rights' are very elastic and subjective.
I see no reason to NOT tell kids, there are biological benefits, but the genetic testing benefits can be achieved without ancestral lineage
I have a blood-clotting genetic predisposition, learned the hard way; ancestral information had clotting but not genetics, and would not have helped that, unless I was very rich for various testing preventatively. These days we do pediatric testing for things like that
BUT there is a cancer connection, skipping generations, I found that in death certificates,
maybe a benefit,
local call
=
Tell the kids?
There are quite a few surrogacy kids nearby, they grew up, knowingly, matter of fact,
times change, and values
4
Considering that 23 and Me provides matches to relatives who have also gotten DNA tests done with the service, the parents might want to inform the daughter about the sperm donation before she possibly gets a notification from 23 that they have found a half sibling of hers (which does happen regularly on sites like 23 and ancestry.com) Many adoptees and children of sperm/egg donations use the sites to find relatives.
13
I have no comment on the Ethicist’s answer to Query One. At first I couldn’t tell the players without a scorecard. Once I got that straight, I had as much trouble as Abbott and Costello figuring out who was on first, who on second, who on third.
On Query Three, knowing nothing about 23andMe, I looked at the Wikipedia entry. (I’m entitled. I’m not doing an academic research paper.) Why anybody would entrust anything about their lives to a company with such a checkered history, is beyond me.
On Query Three, knowing nothing about 23andMe, I looked at the Wikipedia entry. (I’m entitled. I’m not doing an academic research paper.) Why anybody would entrust anything about their lives to a company with such a checkered history, is beyond me.
34
The third letter describes a situation that I don't think I would have ever imagined. It also illustrates an important aspect of genetic testing: DNA tests don't just provide information about the person seeking the test, but also about their relatives.
With that in mind, I wonder why the daughter was so enthusiastic about sharing results that, at least in their most direct explanations, imply dishonesty on the part of one or the other of her parents - either her father is not Irish, or he is not her biological father.
Regardless of her motivations, I think that daughter has forced a conversation on the rest of the family. I don't agree that the parents should pursue further tests before this conversation. Each member of the family, and other relatives and friends, have ingrained ideas about who is the biological father of those kids. Further testing would irrevocably change those ideas for at least some of those people.
I think the parents should carefully discuss this with each other, and settle on what they wish to tell their daughters. Then I think the whole family should discuss how the daughters were conceived. They should consider carefully whether they want to do more testing that might well confirm that the man that perhaps all four of them have believed to have biologically fathered these young women, in fact did not. IMO each person should be afforded the opportunity to forgo learning the precise facts to preserve their own self-images and beliefs.
With that in mind, I wonder why the daughter was so enthusiastic about sharing results that, at least in their most direct explanations, imply dishonesty on the part of one or the other of her parents - either her father is not Irish, or he is not her biological father.
Regardless of her motivations, I think that daughter has forced a conversation on the rest of the family. I don't agree that the parents should pursue further tests before this conversation. Each member of the family, and other relatives and friends, have ingrained ideas about who is the biological father of those kids. Further testing would irrevocably change those ideas for at least some of those people.
I think the parents should carefully discuss this with each other, and settle on what they wish to tell their daughters. Then I think the whole family should discuss how the daughters were conceived. They should consider carefully whether they want to do more testing that might well confirm that the man that perhaps all four of them have believed to have biologically fathered these young women, in fact did not. IMO each person should be afforded the opportunity to forgo learning the precise facts to preserve their own self-images and beliefs.
3
Sabrina, Sabrina, Sabrina...what a mess you've gotten yourself into. And after going to all that trouble - asking if she was seeing anyone and her saying she was only "casually seeing other people", only to find out that it wasn't casual to that "other person" at all. And how shocking that S would still be intimate with K while you were engaged in a nice fling that you knew from the get-go would not last because you and S were incompatible! And to put the cherry on the Sundae S then probably lied to her current lover as well while she was 'flinging' with you!! On a more serious note, you have absolutely no right to hurt another person to atone to yourself for your own poor judgement. Yup. Your poor judgement. Any time someone says they're "seeing someone casually" they are seeing someone damnit. And we all know what that means. At that point you should have packed your bag and gone flinging elsewhere to avoid "contributing to someone's heartbreak." You haven't done that yet, but you are sure as hell considering it as if telling K would somehow alleviate you of the guilt you feel. It won't. Get some values girlfriend. Then use 'em. But leave K alone. And as for S...she gets to look in the mirror every day while she uses whoever's next. Disgusting.
34
Victoria: Twice I have observed abuse of females, and twice I have asked very loudly, "Are you ok?" Once I called the police, after loudly telling the man I was calling the police. (He left before they arrived.) I think it would be much worse to stay silent.
35
My cousin recently got a 23 and me result that had him only half jokingly accusing his parents of lying to him. He thought he was half Italian and half Irish. He got a ~25% Irish, 25% Italian and the rest "Northern European." We do not share the Italian side, but I was not surprised that the Irish side was lower than expected. I have a much more complete family tree, and despite what he was told, our family isn't that Irish. All you need is a migrant ancestor to skew the gene match.
That said, with the increase in genetic technology, it is increasingly likely that your daughters may discover they are not genetically related to their father. I suspect that information will be far more damaging if they find out any other way. Or worse, your daughter may jump to the conclusion that she is the product of an adulterous affair unless she is told the truth.
That said, with the increase in genetic technology, it is increasingly likely that your daughters may discover they are not genetically related to their father. I suspect that information will be far more damaging if they find out any other way. Or worse, your daughter may jump to the conclusion that she is the product of an adulterous affair unless she is told the truth.
26
One is tempted to say: Sabrina D. can merely show this article in the New York Times to K., and let chips fall where they may.
I do wonder how much consideration the Ethicist gives to the subjects of questions reading the column; sometimes it seems there is not enough?
I do wonder how much consideration the Ethicist gives to the subjects of questions reading the column; sometimes it seems there is not enough?
14
Kids have a right to know how they are conceived -- even if it turns out both daughters are the biological daughters of their father, it seems inappropriate to keep this information from them.
These genetic tests are frustrating, though. Families may have migrated from elsewhere and ended up in Ireland and spent generations there before immigrating to the US. Just because their origins don't show up as Irish on some genetic test, it doesn't mean their heritage, culture and traditions aren't Irish.
These genetic tests are frustrating, though. Families may have migrated from elsewhere and ended up in Ireland and spent generations there before immigrating to the US. Just because their origins don't show up as Irish on some genetic test, it doesn't mean their heritage, culture and traditions aren't Irish.
79
My family, the Muncasters, go back to the 16th century in England, but the genetic test only shows 6% Great Britain. I have been told that England was somewhat of a pit stop for many nationalities, on their way to somewhere else.
11
Personally, I'd really rather this weren't an advice column for relationship issues. It would be great to have Amy Dickinson do something like that, but the "I said, she said" thing is not what I read this column for.
For the parental issue, when kids are old enough to get their own DNA tests done, they are probably old enough to handle information about the science of how they were conceived. It actually may be a little late. This really feels like an issue that may be best for Dad to decide. It is his right to decide how he'd like to handle his relationship with his daughter.
As for the situation with the elder person, I've always felt an obligation to help in a situation like this, even when it is a child who is involved. My strategy is to ask the caretaker, "Let me help you with (....). This looks like a stressful situation for everybody." and saying this in a no-nonsense, empathic, practical, non-emotional way. I think this allows the caretaker to take a breath, feel that someone understands their stress, and also get the information that people are paying attention to their behavior.
For the parental issue, when kids are old enough to get their own DNA tests done, they are probably old enough to handle information about the science of how they were conceived. It actually may be a little late. This really feels like an issue that may be best for Dad to decide. It is his right to decide how he'd like to handle his relationship with his daughter.
As for the situation with the elder person, I've always felt an obligation to help in a situation like this, even when it is a child who is involved. My strategy is to ask the caretaker, "Let me help you with (....). This looks like a stressful situation for everybody." and saying this in a no-nonsense, empathic, practical, non-emotional way. I think this allows the caretaker to take a breath, feel that someone understands their stress, and also get the information that people are paying attention to their behavior.
125
Good Elder Care Advice! Thanks!
5
It is my pleasure.
I would like to point out that this type of genetic testing is not a very reliable indicator of ethnicity. As I understand it, the information acquired is compared to information already in the testing firm's database, and conclusions are drawn from that. The database is understandably very small. Moreover, there is no genetic marker for race or ethnicity. One source I read said the claims of family background through such tests are so unreliable, it should be considered more like entertainment. In fact, the article strongly suggested that ads for these types of tests are very misleading (for example, how could someone be 1/4 Native American with no family lore to back it up?) A real genetic test through a dr's office is more reliable, but a lot more expensive. Getting an additional test should be up to the letter writer and her spouse, but any similarities or dissimilarities in the results of a TV-ad test may not be very meaningful.
31
(for example, how could someone be 1/4 Native American with no family lore to back it up?)
Adoption.
Adoption.
11
that's not true. my family had ours done and we were surprised to come up with 20% native american, with no family lore. but our family settled in south america from spain in the 1500s. so even without lore, we shouldn't have been surprised, yet we were.
we were also surprised by how little spanish, by the scandinavian (via scotland i presume), greco roman and middle eastern and north african that showed up. even if you think you know where your family is from, you probably really don't.
we were also surprised by how little spanish, by the scandinavian (via scotland i presume), greco roman and middle eastern and north african that showed up. even if you think you know where your family is from, you probably really don't.
5
Lots of people with French-Canadian heritage have Native American ancestry. I'm sure not all of them know it.
3
Regarding the daughter who underwent 23andme testing, I would add that before the mother does anything, she needs to find out, from 23andme, about the reliability and accuracy and specificity and reproducibility of these call outs for ethnicity. Until this happens, she is still operating under potentially wrong information. The test results are generally "fun" and "titillating" until situations like this arise.
Indeed, for me this is one of the risks of indiscriminant genetic testing through things like 23andme, a risk that should be highlighted in the informed consent form that the person signs beforehand.
Indeed, for me this is one of the risks of indiscriminant genetic testing through things like 23andme, a risk that should be highlighted in the informed consent form that the person signs beforehand.
39
She wouldn't be 'operating under wrong information'; what the daughters should be told is the circumstances of their conception. No conclusions need be drawn. This is critical information about THEM, and they have a right to it. If the conversation is held sensitively, including the parents expressing their love for these kids, their deep desire to have become parents to begin with, and the dad's genuine role and identity as their dad (biology notwithstanding), this can be an opportunity for growth of all individuals involved and the family unit. Certainly there will be mixed emotions, but adults learn how to deal with mixed, and sometimes difficult emotions. Do it together.
13
To Sabrina D: Don't say anything and forget about it. To S, her relationship with K was casual. That's why she is in a serious relationship with someone else. To K, it meant much more. That's K's problem. All of us have "loved in vain" at some point in our lives. K is unhappy, and hopes to make her friends reject S and her girlfriend from the social circle. Don't assist her. Also, since S is in a serious relationship with someone besides K (and it isn't you), your little tryst has no bearing on the situation. Telling K will only increase her feelings that she was wronged, and she wasn't. K and S weren't married, engaged, or seen as a couple by the group and more importantly, not seen as a couple by one of the two individuals involved (S). The only reason to tell K anything would be to stir the pot even more. Forget the whole thing. If it ever comes out, simply say, "The incident meant little to me, and evidently it was the same for S since she is with someone else, and I really don't care."
73
An excellent suggestion for how to intervene in a possibly abusive situation. We need more guidelines (and suggested talking points) to assist we bystanders in taking appropriate action. Usually we remain silent because we know what to do, but not what to say, let alone what to respond.
37
I would be wary of 23andme testing and what they purport to be true. They have run into legal trouble not too long ago. Please don't credit them too heavily and bear in mind that you daughter may have inherited your genes (alleles), not your husbands'!
29
I hope no one will be misled by your confused notions.
4
Good column and Kwane speaks with a wise and reasoned voice. Kudos.
2
In the last situation, thumbs up.
The first letter leaves me wondering about how it could be, in a community that is tightly interwoven, that "S" could move secretively through serial relationships. The step-by-step narrative- sometimes helpful-- seems to distract from the core issues, rather than clarify them.
If Sabrina believed S was NOT involved with someone else when she pursued S, she has no reason to second guess herself now. If she DID suspect that S WAS involved with K -- involved implying "serious" - she should take the heat. We humans do dumb, sometimes harmful, stuff. Ethicists don't grant absolution, just tools to analyze our behaviors, and how they mesh with our values - and how to move on.
So did S lie about - or misrepresent - her relationship with K? If so, I would not feel Sabrina owes S confidentiality. Why would Sabrina think her relationship with S was supposed to be secret anyway?
Then, If K is a friend and not just a casual acquaintance, Sabrina ought to break this information to K privately and gently before it slips out, whether or not S gets angry. And whether or not K is upset, which she may be, but not as upset as learning about it from a 3rd party.
SO I agree with the Ethicist, but with bemusement at all the secret elephants hiding under the bed. Secrets are often kept ostensibly because the truth will hurt others - when the issue is not who's to blame, but more about owning our own judgment and actions, and being straight with friends.
The first letter leaves me wondering about how it could be, in a community that is tightly interwoven, that "S" could move secretively through serial relationships. The step-by-step narrative- sometimes helpful-- seems to distract from the core issues, rather than clarify them.
If Sabrina believed S was NOT involved with someone else when she pursued S, she has no reason to second guess herself now. If she DID suspect that S WAS involved with K -- involved implying "serious" - she should take the heat. We humans do dumb, sometimes harmful, stuff. Ethicists don't grant absolution, just tools to analyze our behaviors, and how they mesh with our values - and how to move on.
So did S lie about - or misrepresent - her relationship with K? If so, I would not feel Sabrina owes S confidentiality. Why would Sabrina think her relationship with S was supposed to be secret anyway?
Then, If K is a friend and not just a casual acquaintance, Sabrina ought to break this information to K privately and gently before it slips out, whether or not S gets angry. And whether or not K is upset, which she may be, but not as upset as learning about it from a 3rd party.
SO I agree with the Ethicist, but with bemusement at all the secret elephants hiding under the bed. Secrets are often kept ostensibly because the truth will hurt others - when the issue is not who's to blame, but more about owning our own judgment and actions, and being straight with friends.
9
But is this actually an ethical question? No. So who cares? So much DRAMA!
9
http://www.debrapasquella.com/2010/05/lesbian-drama.html
Even little girls are often very focused on relationship, while boys are obsessed with trains or dinosaurs or something. Later we have the "mean girls" phenomena. I suspect an inborn tendency here. In modern life with lesbian interrelationships the extra drama is a widely known meme. Kind of the opposite with gay men in general, as one might expect.
Even little girls are often very focused on relationship, while boys are obsessed with trains or dinosaurs or something. Later we have the "mean girls" phenomena. I suspect an inborn tendency here. In modern life with lesbian interrelationships the extra drama is a widely known meme. Kind of the opposite with gay men in general, as one might expect.
3
The ethicist said: ... (though, if you don’t know who the donor is or if you promised him anonymity, your daughters won’t have a right to learn more about him).
I ask why educated persons would make such a statement, giving one group a 'right' to know their heritage while denying it to another. Every child has the right -and the society the obligation-to know who they are and what it is makes them different or similar to those who have been named/appointed as 'family. Adoptees have ' enjoyed' this discrimination for years, and we resent being told that we do not have the same rights as he/she who was born under the natural creation and birth circumstances that most others are born.
The blonde, blue-eyed child who sits in a room with 'siblings' whose eyes and hair are dark indeed has the birthright to know how it is she is tall and slim while her darker sibs are not.
The mother and her husband knew the circumstances under which the girls were conceived. How is it that they did not understand that a mixed-sperm treatment gave more than a small chance that the conception would be with the donors sperm rather than the husband's?
Omission of what is the truth is just as detrimental as commission. Another truth is that no one likes to discover that their 'parents' have conspired to hide the truth from them. Many adoptees discover the omitted truth about themselves when death arrives for their adoptive parents and final adoption papers are found in their legal papers...
I ask why educated persons would make such a statement, giving one group a 'right' to know their heritage while denying it to another. Every child has the right -and the society the obligation-to know who they are and what it is makes them different or similar to those who have been named/appointed as 'family. Adoptees have ' enjoyed' this discrimination for years, and we resent being told that we do not have the same rights as he/she who was born under the natural creation and birth circumstances that most others are born.
The blonde, blue-eyed child who sits in a room with 'siblings' whose eyes and hair are dark indeed has the birthright to know how it is she is tall and slim while her darker sibs are not.
The mother and her husband knew the circumstances under which the girls were conceived. How is it that they did not understand that a mixed-sperm treatment gave more than a small chance that the conception would be with the donors sperm rather than the husband's?
Omission of what is the truth is just as detrimental as commission. Another truth is that no one likes to discover that their 'parents' have conspired to hide the truth from them. Many adoptees discover the omitted truth about themselves when death arrives for their adoptive parents and final adoption papers are found in their legal papers...
27
#1 - Too hard to follow. You took a simple story and made it convoluted. And too dramatic.
#2 - You dropped the ball. While you may or may not have reported the incident to senior protective services, you certainly could have given up your seat. I myself would have followed them after the film, taken their license number (if available) and reported the caregiver to the police.
#3 - Why are you waiting so long to tell your daughter? Its like adoption - the earlier told, the better. Sperm donation has been around for how long now? No shame in it. Tell her now, in the loving way you know how to do.
#2 - You dropped the ball. While you may or may not have reported the incident to senior protective services, you certainly could have given up your seat. I myself would have followed them after the film, taken their license number (if available) and reported the caregiver to the police.
#3 - Why are you waiting so long to tell your daughter? Its like adoption - the earlier told, the better. Sperm donation has been around for how long now? No shame in it. Tell her now, in the loving way you know how to do.
37
I disagree with the response to Sabrina. I have worked as a therapist in the context of a small lesbian community, and this situation is not uncommon. My perspective is that this is more about Sabrina's need than K's. She sees herself as contributing to K's pain, which is open to debate. But she feels bad about her role and wants some reassurance or absolution from K. And she wants to mitigate K's pain by telling her the story - from her own perspective. First, Sabrina doesn't really know what happened in that relationship. How does telling the story from her limited perspective help K? Second, how is it hypocritical to say that everything will be okay? It WILL be, eventually. Third, the central "player" here is S, not Sabrina. If indeed the situation unfolded as Sabrina surmises, maybe the ethical thing for her to do is talk to S and convince HER to explain to K what happened.
12
That will only make trouble where there need be none. It will not undo anyone's actions; it will not make anyone feel better. No one is cheating on anyone at present, and that's to the good. But this idea that everyone has to know where everyone's been, and how much they knew, and when they did it exactly, and just who betrayed whom and just how much--well, give it up, guys. And play nice, now.
6
This whole process of the insemination seems asinine. Why mix the husbands sperm with the donor? The donor sperm do not "fortify" the husbands sperm. The logic behind such a procedure is ridiculous unless its simply a psychological ruse to make the husband feel better about the procedure. Now you end up with a conundrum that will cost additional thousands of dollars and could have been avoided to begin with! Pus any psychological aspect of the whole process will be moot.
11
Given that it occurred almost 22 years ago, this isn't terribly helpful.
31
This is a very common approach. You should do a little research before dismissing it.
6
"The logic behind such a procedure is ridiculous unless its simply a psychological ruse to make the husband feel better about the procedure."
In a firing squad one rifle is loaded with a blank. It fires but no bullet is discharged. This so any man there can feel that he was not the one who filed the fatal shot.
We invent these little lies for precisely the reason you offered, to make someone feel better.
In a firing squad one rifle is loaded with a blank. It fires but no bullet is discharged. This so any man there can feel that he was not the one who filed the fatal shot.
We invent these little lies for precisely the reason you offered, to make someone feel better.
6
Sabrina didn't actively contribute to K's heartbreak. K was more invested in the S-K relationship than S was. It frequently happens. There is nothing to say to K; she has to let time do its healing work, and not break the confidence with S. Relationships are not a Venn diagram.
Disability- Ok to offer a seat to the couple in difficulty (her choice of a seat looks like anger/revenge). A kind word is never without value. That said, not every sentence said in stress constitutes sustained abuse, and we don't know if these people live together. He may have insisted on walking a long distance after some other tiring activity, and he may have been acting out resentment of her not visiting. I have known people with difficulties who repeatedly got into trouble by choosing the most difficult route or process. Manipulation can be defense mechanism, and even negative attention may be a response to fear of loneliness/abandonment.
Dad(s): Not a lot to be gained by explaining the sperm donor situation. I know another commenter here will be raging about knowing the total truth (with lots of capital letters), but these genetic tests are not without flaw, and they compare one's genes to a genetic commonality in a geographic area. If nobody ever moved, this might have greater meaning, but wars and famine moved people around and names became changed, so one of my German great-great grandfather's grandfathers became Polish.
Disability- Ok to offer a seat to the couple in difficulty (her choice of a seat looks like anger/revenge). A kind word is never without value. That said, not every sentence said in stress constitutes sustained abuse, and we don't know if these people live together. He may have insisted on walking a long distance after some other tiring activity, and he may have been acting out resentment of her not visiting. I have known people with difficulties who repeatedly got into trouble by choosing the most difficult route or process. Manipulation can be defense mechanism, and even negative attention may be a response to fear of loneliness/abandonment.
Dad(s): Not a lot to be gained by explaining the sperm donor situation. I know another commenter here will be raging about knowing the total truth (with lots of capital letters), but these genetic tests are not without flaw, and they compare one's genes to a genetic commonality in a geographic area. If nobody ever moved, this might have greater meaning, but wars and famine moved people around and names became changed, so one of my German great-great grandfather's grandfathers became Polish.
12
The 23&me tests might not be precise about ethnicity, although in my own case they have become increasingly accurate over the last few years. They are solid enough on familial relationships that if the reader follows advice, the likely lack of biological relationship between father and daughter will be very clear if any sharing of information is allowed through the 23&me site. I write as someone who thought the company warning about uncovering potentially disturbing information couldn't apply to my family, and then uncovered old secrets. I advocate sharing the information regardless; it is important for health history.
9
Avoid doing what my mom used to call "stirring the pot."