If all borders were dissolved today, I believe the vast majority of populations in Africa and the Middle East would try to emigrate to Europe, North America and Australia. Either because of war, famine, disease, poverty, human rights oppression – take your pick. Their governments cannot fulfill the obligations of a sovereign state to its citizens. The sheer numbers of these humans would change the quality of life in the west forever. When we are saying 9000 per day, how can Europe absorb that and maintain quality of life, maintain its own integrity and its obligations to its own citizens? I believe this will continue and get worse until there is an effective and united first world response that gives Africa, the Middle East and other humanitarian disaster regions a basic minimum of food, shelter, health and personal safety. There is no escaping this. If a world coalition does not forcefully and meaningfully intervene in these regions on issues such as war, food production, sanitation, disease control, human rights violations, population control…the problem will simply finds its way back to the west. That is what’s happening in Europe. If a united Europe and other world powers won’t collectively assume such an undertaking out of a humanitarian interest for the millions fleeing these terrible places, then maybe the impetus will be their interest in self-preservation.
2
Population explosion is the internal force driving this conflict as powerful as the weaponry of any with any outside country you might want to blame - and there certainly are many that do deserve blame. But Syria's explosive population is Syria's making.
The roughly 8 million internally displaced Syrians is roughly equal to the population of the entire country in the late 1970s. By 1980, 8.7 million. 1990 12.1 million, 1995 14.2 million. And at the start of the war in 2011, about 22 million.
Syria's population growth rate has been over 30% per decade since the 1950s.
35% of Syria's population at the start of the war was younger than 14. The average (median) Syrian man was 21.9 years old. The average Syrian woman, 22.1 years old.
Syria's natural resources can't support a population this size. Syria's government and Syria's private sector have utterly failed to create enough jobs for this many people. The massive population of young Syrians had no hope for any decent employment whether there was a war or not.
And some of them chose to make their own job as rebel soldier or jihadist. This is what angry young men do when they lack hope.
Others fled, millions. In a way, they should be grateful for the war. Syria's youth desperate for jobs would never be accepted into Europe if that's all they were, desperate for jobs. But as refugees, they are welcome in Germany. For now.
And Umm Suleiman, forced from her home for the second time in 4 years, is expecting her 5th child. Why?
The roughly 8 million internally displaced Syrians is roughly equal to the population of the entire country in the late 1970s. By 1980, 8.7 million. 1990 12.1 million, 1995 14.2 million. And at the start of the war in 2011, about 22 million.
Syria's population growth rate has been over 30% per decade since the 1950s.
35% of Syria's population at the start of the war was younger than 14. The average (median) Syrian man was 21.9 years old. The average Syrian woman, 22.1 years old.
Syria's natural resources can't support a population this size. Syria's government and Syria's private sector have utterly failed to create enough jobs for this many people. The massive population of young Syrians had no hope for any decent employment whether there was a war or not.
And some of them chose to make their own job as rebel soldier or jihadist. This is what angry young men do when they lack hope.
Others fled, millions. In a way, they should be grateful for the war. Syria's youth desperate for jobs would never be accepted into Europe if that's all they were, desperate for jobs. But as refugees, they are welcome in Germany. For now.
And Umm Suleiman, forced from her home for the second time in 4 years, is expecting her 5th child. Why?
3
My own concern is about getting used to seeing these numbers. And then, going beyond the dynamics of why things are the way they are, I hope to see more about what might interrupt the cycle. I feel that there are some people in Syria who care more about their children than about power issues. I'd like to know if I'm right.
Can someone, anyone tell me why no one seems to realize that war is not two armies fighting one another, but two countries, or more, killing civilians, innocent people in another country. Sure, the Russian bombs or the American fighters occasionally kill a combatant, but for the most part we, Russia, Syria and all the rest are just destroying peoples lives. These are normal everyday people like you and me trying to get through life. What the hell? Don't our leaders get that? Don't tell my how many ISIS fighters we have killed, tell me how many innocent people we have killed, Russia has killed. You wonder why Europe has an immigration problem? What would you do if Russian warplanes were just as likely to bomb your house in Beverly Hills; Salina, Kansas; Mobile, Alabama. What is wrong with the governments of the world? Why is there such a misconception about war? It's the people who suffer.
3
I suspect that is it mostly Sunni Muslims fleeing Syria since the Shia lands are being protected by Russia
It is the Sunni's that are the cause of so many problems in Syria and unfortunately for the EU they are getting mostly Sunni Muslim plus the economic Migrants. I doubt if the US knows the difference in Syria. where we have been busy arming the most violent extremists among them, as we are so eager to take out Basher Assad.
We get into so much trouble with our policy of regime change. We have tried Regime Change in Syria. Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Egypt etc. - and what did we get for our blood and treasure - chaos and civil war. Only Egypt was able to pull free of the US tentacles.
I am not sure where the US got the idea that exceptionalism required the US to go to any country where the ruler did not kow-tow to us and topple the government and try and replace it with one we approved of.
Now we are busily destroying Syria, arming Al Quaeda rebel whom we call the Free Syrian Army so we can topple Assad. Of course we have no replacement so long after we leave the Civil war we started will continue. When will American lean to stay home and quit trying to run the world.
Some one needs to tell Ash Carter to sit down and shut up instead of wanting more men and weapons for the war we started. He should busy himself reforming the Pentagon and not trying to reform the world.
It is the Sunni's that are the cause of so many problems in Syria and unfortunately for the EU they are getting mostly Sunni Muslim plus the economic Migrants. I doubt if the US knows the difference in Syria. where we have been busy arming the most violent extremists among them, as we are so eager to take out Basher Assad.
We get into so much trouble with our policy of regime change. We have tried Regime Change in Syria. Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Egypt etc. - and what did we get for our blood and treasure - chaos and civil war. Only Egypt was able to pull free of the US tentacles.
I am not sure where the US got the idea that exceptionalism required the US to go to any country where the ruler did not kow-tow to us and topple the government and try and replace it with one we approved of.
Now we are busily destroying Syria, arming Al Quaeda rebel whom we call the Free Syrian Army so we can topple Assad. Of course we have no replacement so long after we leave the Civil war we started will continue. When will American lean to stay home and quit trying to run the world.
Some one needs to tell Ash Carter to sit down and shut up instead of wanting more men and weapons for the war we started. He should busy himself reforming the Pentagon and not trying to reform the world.
3
The bottom line in the refugee crisis is not politics, it's weaponry. If you trace back the flood of people to its root you will find places where more and more people have, and are using, greater firepower, from automatic weapons to fighter bombers. As long as these weapons continue to be made and sold and used--as long as there is huge economic incentive for war, as long as there are suppliers without regulation feeding the frightened, damaged, wounded, and monomaniacal--the tide will be unabated.
2
My husband often says that Islam is 800 years behind Christianity in it's development. I think he may be right as I feel like we are watching a modified replay of the Crusades. This time around it is the spreading of fundamentalist Islam that is at the root of the violence. What makes the situation so terrifying is that modern weapons are being used to try and achieve this goal. Add to this mess all of the mercenary people (i.e. the arms dealers) who could not care less about the holier than thou religious aspect of this fight and we have the current situation in the Middle East.
We in the West seem to have a difficult time wrapping our minds around the idea that not everyone wants to live the way we do. And what we really have trouble with is the idea that this sort of constantly violent confrontation is a viable method of attaining power. When all of this violence spills over into our more orderly western world we are unequipped to deal with the results. But deal with it we must because the people perpetrating the violence in the Middle East are a danger to all of us.
“War is cruelty. There’s no use trying to reform it, the crueler it is the sooner it will be over.”
– William Tecumseh Sherman
I am afraid that we in the United States have forgotten the truth of Sherman's words.
We in the West seem to have a difficult time wrapping our minds around the idea that not everyone wants to live the way we do. And what we really have trouble with is the idea that this sort of constantly violent confrontation is a viable method of attaining power. When all of this violence spills over into our more orderly western world we are unequipped to deal with the results. But deal with it we must because the people perpetrating the violence in the Middle East are a danger to all of us.
“War is cruelty. There’s no use trying to reform it, the crueler it is the sooner it will be over.”
– William Tecumseh Sherman
I am afraid that we in the United States have forgotten the truth of Sherman's words.
5
I can appreciate the desire to flee, especially women and children, but why men do not stay and fight, I have trouble understanding. I have even more trouble understanding why if you felt you had no choice BUT, to flee, you would choose a route that is perilous and go to a group of countries where you are not wanted, not understood and not (I presume), confortable. Why not go to Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, UAE, et al? My cynical side says it is because the grass is greener on the European side of the hill, at least initially. The problems and issues, referred to in the article are not being solved, they are being dispersed along with the projected almost 1 million "refugees". I say "refugees" because who is to determine who is and who isn't, a refugee If the US government with all its sytems and check and balances, cannot adequately screen Syrians, who can? And that is the frightening question.
1
Oh my. NOW there is a superpower intervening in the air. Spoken almost as though America has not been bombing Syria for many months and the surge of refugee's numbered in the 100's of thousands months before Russia came to aid the elected, lawful sovereign government of Syria. That "It's all Russia's fault' is not the subtext here, it is the whole text. I would hope that sometime someone will become aware that this narrative will not sail anymore. America has been bombing in the middle-east for over 25 years. From the ignoble beginning of that travesty to this ignoble moment, the only achievement has been the ruination of millions of lives and civil society there collapsing into mountains of ash. And yet....the resistance to American solutions has grown into a regional phenomena and likely become a global phenomena. This in not a unique occurrence in history. When nations expand into becoming empires, the clarity of national interest necessarily becomes diffused. Russia suffers very little from such diffusion. That is why it can do what America cannot do which is express its national interest concisely in action and in explanation.
3
Is this today's news? I've heard stories of ME war created refugees a hundred times over since 2003 the year of America's invasion of Iraq!
2
In order for there to be a broad, multilateral dialogue toward a political-diplomatic resolution to Syria's civil war, fighting has to first be tampered to a manageable level. Permanently degrade military exchanges in Syria requires one force becoming dominant. There are three and only three possible dominant parties in Syria. 1}ISIS/ISIL/Islamic State; 2}Al Qaeda/al-Nursa; or 3.}the former and current elected government, lead by Bashar al-Assad. Those are the choices. Now tell me, which one would you choose? The correct choice has been clear since Al Qaeda initiated the violent phase of this uprising by shooting into the crowd at that protest rally, under the guise of the American media coined "Arab Spring", killing protesters and Syrian security personnel alike. That very incident was later blamed on Assad by foreign national entities, for possibly self-serving reasons. Said entities pushed forward the unsubstantiated claim that Assad had ordered his security personnel to shoot the protester. No proof of such an order was ever offered, nor was any offered to proof Assad’s forces fired those chemical weapon laced munitions? The elected government and its forces has always been the only way out of this mess. So let's stop with the non-sense and help Russia and Iran get this thing done!!! After which, national governments apposed to an Assad lead Syrian government can use the appropriate international body (the United Nations) to try and remove him from power.
2
PUTIN ARRIVED JUST IN TIME to be dragged into the quagmire that will continue to grow in the Mideast. It's only just begun. There's plenty more where this came from. And now he'll be put under pressure by many countries, Allies and the UN. He's bitten off way more than he can chew.
These comments are beyond my ken.
“Oh geee the NYT is blaming the Ruskies” blah, blah, blah.
These are human beings! Children, people who have known nothing but war yet people sit here and yammer on and on about how the Times is the WH lap dog.
Stop it! Look at these people! Why are you all so cynical? Has social media reached a point of trolling that real human lives no longer mean anything?
I am disgusted by these comments. I know it’s time to do another tour with MSF (Doctors without Borders.) If I get blown up? So be it... at least I was trying to actually do something...not just chatter online.
Shame on every one of you!
“Oh geee the NYT is blaming the Ruskies” blah, blah, blah.
These are human beings! Children, people who have known nothing but war yet people sit here and yammer on and on about how the Times is the WH lap dog.
Stop it! Look at these people! Why are you all so cynical? Has social media reached a point of trolling that real human lives no longer mean anything?
I am disgusted by these comments. I know it’s time to do another tour with MSF (Doctors without Borders.) If I get blown up? So be it... at least I was trying to actually do something...not just chatter online.
Shame on every one of you!
5
Were you a teenage female in Dresden now being told not to wear a two piece swim suit at her public bath and let's face it this is social disruption at it's mildest you might think differently. It's easy to crunch numbers in Cambridge and play out a walter mitty scenario on the comments board. It is much harder to deal with the situation as it presents it's self while maintaining one's humanity. Foreign policy had nothing to do with this mess it ebbs and flows where ever islam is dominant. Churchill fought the mahdi army 130years ago and it is remarkable how similiar the two movements are.
2
@monkeytown
I have a rental in Cambridge but as I mentioned in my comment I also work with Doctors without Borders.
My last four tours took me to Kazakhstan, Syria, Botswana and I am also working on our organization’s struggle during the Rwandan genocide in 2007.
So no I am not crunching any numbers in Cambridge. I am face to face with the worst humanitarian crises in the world all while trying to help humans with terrible medical problems that now include surgical intervention on the few who survive barrel bombs dropped by Assad.
I am not in any ivory tower...some days I wish I were...but this is the only way I can help our brothers and sisters around the globe. We DO live in a global community.
I have a rental in Cambridge but as I mentioned in my comment I also work with Doctors without Borders.
My last four tours took me to Kazakhstan, Syria, Botswana and I am also working on our organization’s struggle during the Rwandan genocide in 2007.
So no I am not crunching any numbers in Cambridge. I am face to face with the worst humanitarian crises in the world all while trying to help humans with terrible medical problems that now include surgical intervention on the few who survive barrel bombs dropped by Assad.
I am not in any ivory tower...some days I wish I were...but this is the only way I can help our brothers and sisters around the globe. We DO live in a global community.
2
@monkey town
BTW Churchill was only a young calvary officer when the British slaughtered 20,000 Dervishes 117 years ago.
210,000 have died so far in the Syrian Civil War...but worse is that according to the UN relief 4,181,000 Syrians have been displaced in this civil war..That’s one out of every two Syrians who have no country, no home.
Churchill-Mahdi is no analogy. The region has been in crisis since the 1800s because it suffers from endemic corruption, poor governance, discrimination against women and serious economic problems. The names of the countries from the Ottoman Empire and the world leaders whether Putin, Assad, Obama, Blair or ANYONE keep changing but nothing will make any difference until the underlying problems are solved.
BTW Churchill was only a young calvary officer when the British slaughtered 20,000 Dervishes 117 years ago.
210,000 have died so far in the Syrian Civil War...but worse is that according to the UN relief 4,181,000 Syrians have been displaced in this civil war..That’s one out of every two Syrians who have no country, no home.
Churchill-Mahdi is no analogy. The region has been in crisis since the 1800s because it suffers from endemic corruption, poor governance, discrimination against women and serious economic problems. The names of the countries from the Ottoman Empire and the world leaders whether Putin, Assad, Obama, Blair or ANYONE keep changing but nothing will make any difference until the underlying problems are solved.
As a christian whose fellow christian and other religious minorities have been systematically abused by ISIS and ignored by the American media and govt. I take some umbrage at "violence" being reported as though it were a weather pattern. If the suni muslims who now find life "untenable" had objected more strenuously to the people responsible for their tenuous situation none of this would be happening.
Also worth mentioning (because they do) the brutality displayed by the allowite (a non muslim sect) and their leader is the product of a millineum of brutality on the part of their muslim overlords. It will take a hundred years to repair the middle east and thats with oil over 50 a barrel. Europe and most specifically Germany only compound the problem by proposing to desperate people that theirs is the only place where civilization is possible and their infinite space allows even the self destructive ethos that is the root of all their ills.
Also worth mentioning (because they do) the brutality displayed by the allowite (a non muslim sect) and their leader is the product of a millineum of brutality on the part of their muslim overlords. It will take a hundred years to repair the middle east and thats with oil over 50 a barrel. Europe and most specifically Germany only compound the problem by proposing to desperate people that theirs is the only place where civilization is possible and their infinite space allows even the self destructive ethos that is the root of all their ills.
3
"The influx has overwhelmed the authorities in Greece and the northern European countries where most asylum seekers aim to settle."
Isn't there something in the Koran about opening one's home to fellow followers of the faith? What's the logic that has adherents of Islam flocking to the adherents of Christianity and not to adherents of the Islamic faith? They planning on displacing and annexing or something?
Isn't there something in the Koran about opening one's home to fellow followers of the faith? What's the logic that has adherents of Islam flocking to the adherents of Christianity and not to adherents of the Islamic faith? They planning on displacing and annexing or something?
3
Wealthy ME nations continue to take in zero refugees and provide little humanitarian assistance while fighting their proxy war in Syria. Disgraceful.
5
It looks like the Russian trolls are back and writing their Putin love letter comments here in the NY Times again...
I have another theory: what if Putin is deliberately doing this to push even more masses of Syrian migrants into Europe to destabilize and drain the West of even more emergency funding to address the crisis? Since we know Putin likes to play games, this would be a brilliant chess move since there's little the West can do to stop him.
I have another theory: what if Putin is deliberately doing this to push even more masses of Syrian migrants into Europe to destabilize and drain the West of even more emergency funding to address the crisis? Since we know Putin likes to play games, this would be a brilliant chess move since there's little the West can do to stop him.
2
The Syrian government and numerous Islamic war bands have ignored their own people and their needs, and have consciously chosen to use their resources on weapons of war.
2
At the end of this story we have a quote from an "activist". I would be most grateful if someone at the NYT or perhaps a fellow reader would explain to me precisely what an activist is, and what he does. My guess is that it's one rung lower than a "moderate" rebel, but who knows...
1
A good activist is anyone Mr. Obama would invite to the White House.
A bad activist would have their taxes audited three years in a row and the Bureau of Land Management and the EPA would go look for mud puddles around their house to declare to be Protected Areas.
In Syria you might just be able to buy a ''Good Activist'' badge. Everything in war has a price.
A bad activist would have their taxes audited three years in a row and the Bureau of Land Management and the EPA would go look for mud puddles around their house to declare to be Protected Areas.
In Syria you might just be able to buy a ''Good Activist'' badge. Everything in war has a price.
2
Why is there no international pressure for Mr Putin's administration to step up and take in all of the refugees they are creating?
3
What a bonus for Vlad! With the EU already squabbling and ripping seams in its polity over the Syrian and other refugees pouring over their borders, Putin can send another entire village over the border with each airstrike. Low-cost / no-cost method of cracking open an otherwise formidable political opponent. Plus he gets to give his flyboys some gametime. He may not be the master strategist that some would paint him, but he does have the sense to notice when a cookie crumbles his way and take advantage of it.
2
A lot of very good comments here.
Particularly when US/Nato and Russia policy and military activity are scrutinized, which is of leading importance to be heard in a leading source for public opinion like New York Times. In fact the comments here are stronger, more to the point than the paper's.
The migrant crisis is caused by the imperialist strategies and smaller countries are left to struggle with the debris. We have to wait for this being carried in the headlines.
Particularly when US/Nato and Russia policy and military activity are scrutinized, which is of leading importance to be heard in a leading source for public opinion like New York Times. In fact the comments here are stronger, more to the point than the paper's.
The migrant crisis is caused by the imperialist strategies and smaller countries are left to struggle with the debris. We have to wait for this being carried in the headlines.
2
Russia and Putin have changed the balance of power in Syria creating a flood of refugees. This has added to the number of asylum seekers trying to reach Western Europe just as fall fades to winter making the trip more difficult. Eurpoe and the United States should ask Russia to pay to keep the refugees warm.
I declare an interest. My closest friends are Lebanese-Americans. I have been taught that Syrio-Caucasians are the refugees that one wants to attract, Asians coming up only second.
Whatever. The American military-financial-industrial elites are violating the basic rules of international law, as laid down in 1648 at the Council of wherever by carpet bombing Pipelineistan. Voltaire wrote a comic novel about it, a musical was later played on Broadway about it. But the comedy continues.
Well, it is not the first time nor will it be the last.
Whatever. The American military-financial-industrial elites are violating the basic rules of international law, as laid down in 1648 at the Council of wherever by carpet bombing Pipelineistan. Voltaire wrote a comic novel about it, a musical was later played on Broadway about it. But the comedy continues.
Well, it is not the first time nor will it be the last.
2
Nice, terse writing!
1
The only way to find a solution to this never ending crisis will be going through an international negotiation process like it was the case in numerous previous conflicts or civil wars (Algeria, Vietnam and Lebanon for instance). The UN is pursuing its efforts and should be encouraged in this endeavour. It will take time and patience. It will probably be only feasible when the parties are exhausted of fighting each other. The Russian military intervention is only making the suffering of the local population worst. Your article is confirming this point. The main reason of the Syrian chaos is Bachar el Assad. An incompetent and stubborn leader who is essentially using his army and foreign allies to defend his alawite minority. He has no interest in the future of his country. Him leaving power is an essential part for the peaceful resolution of this war. In the meantime the West should be expecting an increasing number of refugees. Europe is doing more than its share. It is time for North America to help as well.
3
It looks as though Russia is aiding the Assad regime to get rid of the Sunnis, who still hope to flee to Turkey, which now has closed its borders.
According to Zaidoun Alzoabi, the head of a union of Syrian medical care and relief organizations, the Russian airstrikes are "the major reason" for more sufferings.
He said: "There is some psychological effect for people, hearing there is a superpower intervening in the war." It shows that Syrians still hold the former Soviet Union in high regard, and Putin is obliged to live up to this image and support the regime. It buys arms from Russian worth hundreds of millions every year. Apart from the Russian military base and personnel in the port of Tartus, there are at least 20,000 Russian women married to Syrians, who being part of the elite look to Russia. They hold out mostly in areas controlled by Alawites. It's doubtful if they want to return to Russia. So the Assad regime has to hold on to power!
For Russia, Syrian Ties Complicated by Marriage http://nyti.ms/QQCvE3
According to Zaidoun Alzoabi, the head of a union of Syrian medical care and relief organizations, the Russian airstrikes are "the major reason" for more sufferings.
He said: "There is some psychological effect for people, hearing there is a superpower intervening in the war." It shows that Syrians still hold the former Soviet Union in high regard, and Putin is obliged to live up to this image and support the regime. It buys arms from Russian worth hundreds of millions every year. Apart from the Russian military base and personnel in the port of Tartus, there are at least 20,000 Russian women married to Syrians, who being part of the elite look to Russia. They hold out mostly in areas controlled by Alawites. It's doubtful if they want to return to Russia. So the Assad regime has to hold on to power!
For Russia, Syrian Ties Complicated by Marriage http://nyti.ms/QQCvE3
1
I will never forget a story last winter or the one before about a Syrian family whose infant froze to death in their refugee tent in a camp. The cared for her; it was not neglect. They simply did not have the resources to keep her warm enough. We need to focus resources on protecting so many homeless and/or on the move from the harshness of winter. In this day and age it is an international shame to allow such tragedy.
2
In his misplaced zeal to play the arbiter in Syria and a decisive role in the Middle East if Putin wants to force a unilateral military solution to the long festering Syrian crisis downgrading rather ignoring completely the political-diplomatic route involving a broad multilateral dialogue, not only he is overestimating the military prowess of a weakening Russian state he's presiding over but triggerring an unprecedented crisis in Syria with serious religious, political and humanitarian implications beyond his capacity to manage.
3
I am not sure Putin wants to be the arbiter in Syria, but I certainly agree with the conclusions about the effects of Putin's actions. I see Putin being motivated by his desire to reestablish Russia as a major world power. He moved into Syria because of the vacuum created by US indecisiveness and reluctance to act. Now, he has to be reckoned with and has the ability to control to a very large degree what the US led coalition is able to do in the region. So, he is making it necessary for Russia to have a seat at the table.
1
jp Duffy 3, I agree with you.
Putin will be triggering crisis in Syria? It's already happened, before his involvement.
And just how many of these refugees has Russia accepted? Or better yet, just how many of these refugees have the six rich Gulf countries -- Qatar, United Arab Emirates, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Oman, and Bahrain -- accepted?
8
Russia has stated that it will accept no refugees. That is a problem it thrusts on the EU while at the same time presidential spokesman Peskov opines that there are terrorists among the refugees heading to the EU fanning the flames against the refugees. Since Russia has funded right wing extremist movements and parties in Europe that oppose the EU perhaps this tragedy is part of the same battle plan to weaken the EU.
Russia has been calling for elections that include all responsible parties. The problem is who determines that a party is responsible? Perhaps the elections should be open to all people with a valid passport from Syria that are willing to vote with allowance for write-in ballots. If ISIS voters are willing to vote, that is their choice as long as through their vote they agree to abide by the decisions of the government that emerges. Those that receive less than a defined percentage - say 4% have no seat in the deliberations but the rest have the job of forming a transition government.
Russia has been calling for elections that include all responsible parties. The problem is who determines that a party is responsible? Perhaps the elections should be open to all people with a valid passport from Syria that are willing to vote with allowance for write-in ballots. If ISIS voters are willing to vote, that is their choice as long as through their vote they agree to abide by the decisions of the government that emerges. Those that receive less than a defined percentage - say 4% have no seat in the deliberations but the rest have the job of forming a transition government.
Obviously, virtually none. But that does not mean we have to outdo them in cruelty.
Seems I have read that Russia has accepted around 1 million immigrants from the Ukraine.
Why can't we insist that Russia and Syria stop bombing hospitals.. Oh right..
2
Try that with the American military first. Or haven't anyone tried?
For Russia this is a crisis made to order:
1) While the West wrings its hands, Putin takes charge and sets the agenda--Europe and the West wait for him to pick up the phone these days.
2) The brutal annexation of Crimea and subjugation of Ukraine are already legitimized by the current crisis.
3) And now for the master stroke: the greatest obstacle to Putin's vision of s resurgent Russia is the EU, currently being torn apart by the migration deluge. Putin now has his hand on the valve, and the more chaos he creates in Syria the more panic he creates in Europe. The Right has a very favorable view of Putin--his views on tradition, culture, and marriage. Syria has become Putin's wrecking ball on the naive playground that was the EU, and he may yet rebuild the old Empire from the wreckage. The Crisis will end when the rest of Europe follows Hungary, leaving Putin at leisure to chip away at puny states none of which NATO will go to war over. Strange fate: several months ago he was reviled as a thug, and now he bestrides the world. If he pulls if off, he will be remembered as Putin the Great.
1) While the West wrings its hands, Putin takes charge and sets the agenda--Europe and the West wait for him to pick up the phone these days.
2) The brutal annexation of Crimea and subjugation of Ukraine are already legitimized by the current crisis.
3) And now for the master stroke: the greatest obstacle to Putin's vision of s resurgent Russia is the EU, currently being torn apart by the migration deluge. Putin now has his hand on the valve, and the more chaos he creates in Syria the more panic he creates in Europe. The Right has a very favorable view of Putin--his views on tradition, culture, and marriage. Syria has become Putin's wrecking ball on the naive playground that was the EU, and he may yet rebuild the old Empire from the wreckage. The Crisis will end when the rest of Europe follows Hungary, leaving Putin at leisure to chip away at puny states none of which NATO will go to war over. Strange fate: several months ago he was reviled as a thug, and now he bestrides the world. If he pulls if off, he will be remembered as Putin the Great.
2
I see your points.but like it or not,when it's all started, Putin tried hard to convince USA and Europe not to try and remove Assad, reminding them of Iraq unforeseen
results. He was ignored. But sadly he was right.but even he didn't see the refugees movement that evolved.
results. He was ignored. But sadly he was right.but even he didn't see the refugees movement that evolved.
Really hard to find sympathy for people who somehow, someway, are continuing to produce more babies during such a "terrible" war amidst such "hardship."
Wow they must really be such hardy people to be able to keep pumping out children they cannot afford or provide a decent environment to grow up in - oh that's right - that's europe's job, and if they don't get a nice enough house and good enough halal food, then its "day of rage" time.
I feel pity for europe, especially since it has been yet another of the uncountable number of obama failures that has led to this situation, which the euros will have to deal with due to his failings.
Wow they must really be such hardy people to be able to keep pumping out children they cannot afford or provide a decent environment to grow up in - oh that's right - that's europe's job, and if they don't get a nice enough house and good enough halal food, then its "day of rage" time.
I feel pity for europe, especially since it has been yet another of the uncountable number of obama failures that has led to this situation, which the euros will have to deal with due to his failings.
10
With few exceptions the Europeans have chosen to accept this disorderly group that will change the cultures of their countries.
I've no pity for the Europeans. The people are sheep being led to the slaughter with promises of freebies.
I've no pity for the Europeans. The people are sheep being led to the slaughter with promises of freebies.
I agree with you on the missing personal responsibility of the Syrians by creating more children that they can't support. I don't agree that this crisis is Obama's fault or the USA. It's their own civil/religious war.the civilians refuse to fight and protect their country, their culture,their principals, they choose to leave to a better ready made pasture. The sad part it that they won't assimilate and over time will create unrest in the places that sheltered them. Cutting the hands that feed them.
1
But then, you always feel pity for the larger and better off, and none for the poorer and more greatly suffering. It's part of your idea that everybody gets what they deserve in life. And so far you've been lucky enough that you can think so.
The US and most EU countries had no problem with what had been happening in Syria for the last 5 years. In fact, they were jumping in thinking that it would be a profitable venture. That is, ............... until the flood of war refugees began to overwhelm them and their "Let them eat cake" life styles.
4
I'm not going to pretend that I completely understand every intricacy of the situation over there, but I am extremely pleased to see the volume of insightful comments here questioning the impartiality of this paper with respect to issues pertaining to the Mideast, religious extremism, foreign policy, etc. Sometimes the bias is subtle, other times it is certainly not. Much too often it seems as though the articles are trying to change our opinions rather than give us a nuanced look at all the facts available. This is still probably the most informative general source of information on such news, but I have to put my critical-thinking/propaganda-detecting hat on extra tight lately before I dig into an article.
For the record, to the extent it matters, I'm a Democrat who has not been particularly thrilled with 1) Obama's uncritical support of the Arab Spring uprisings (did no one see how chaos was going to be inevitable?) and 2) this administration's obvious reluctance to use our military to decimate ISIS (who are just as evil as the Nazis, and perhaps even more ambitious).
For the record, to the extent it matters, I'm a Democrat who has not been particularly thrilled with 1) Obama's uncritical support of the Arab Spring uprisings (did no one see how chaos was going to be inevitable?) and 2) this administration's obvious reluctance to use our military to decimate ISIS (who are just as evil as the Nazis, and perhaps even more ambitious).
12
The defenseless innocents of the owrld grew to depend on the Americans to protect them. The international reputation of out current administration will be their word for betrayal.
4
You may as well be talking about independent journalism and independent journalists. Is there any point when they cease to exist in all mainstream media. I have turned to news outlets on the Internet instead as a necessity and default. There at least you see different arguments instead of bland homogeneity and a muted pretense.
More unhappy consequences of the Obama/Clinton/Kerry Arab Iranian Spring. The Russians and Iranians invade Iraq and the Iraqis invade Europe. The administration claims no responsibility.
9
Yes, it's a really bad thing to invade Iraq, isn't it? Russia and Iran should be punished for even thinking about that, shouldn't they?
5
It is a real pity that some of the wealthy Mid-East states aren't taking on refuges. A real pity. It says what kind of people they are.
I was asked if I believe in Hell. Yes, I do. Hell on Earth. Can you say Syria? But is it also Karma on a regional basis?
I was asked if I believe in Hell. Yes, I do. Hell on Earth. Can you say Syria? But is it also Karma on a regional basis?
2
The Saudis should have all these Syrians plopped down in Riyadh since Saudi money funded ISIS' creation.
7
Did't the crisis begin when the CIA unleashed it's mercenaries and the Pentagon again showed how ineffective, even counterproductive, is US military force, long before a Russian intervention was a glimmer in Putin's eye?
5
No, refugee numbers were just a fraction of what they are now and before the Russians amped up their military support of Syria and got involved themselves. The people of Syria revolted against President Assad during the Arab Spring because they wanted democracy. Blaming the CIA or the Right for the current humanitarian crisis in Syria shows how mendacious the American Left has become.
6
Refugee numbers were in millions well before Russia got involved. Maybe, people (some) wanted the democracy, but somehow that democracy became just a militia fighting for their own power, bringing chaos and civil war . And it is not only in Syria, but in Libya and in Iraq, where help of the US is undeniable.
"refugee numbers were just a fraction of what they are now " -- that's a hilarious comment. So refugees BEFORE Russia arrived were just a tiny portion of the population. Russia's been there for just a few wks. Refugees have been streaming out of Syria by the hundreds of thousands for FOUR YRS. What a ludicrous comment!
If I may, Oil is in this discussion. Saudi Arabia took a run at being the ultimate decider in what a barrel of oil should be. While they can run a deficit many other oil producers can`t.
And here we be.
Russia has contracts with China, for decades they would not give up their military advantage however given the western embargo on Russian financial transactions - guess where Russia went.
And here we be.
Russia has contracts with China, for decades they would not give up their military advantage however given the western embargo on Russian financial transactions - guess where Russia went.
It sure is a good thing that the US bombs which have been dropping on Syria for four years, Libya for four years, Yemen for five years, Iraq for twelve years, and Afghanistan for fourteen years, do not cause "despair" and "disaster."
That's because the US uses special wonderful humanitarian bombs which only kill enemy combatants. Not at all like those nasty Russian interventionist, illegal, village-ruining bombs.
That's because the US uses special wonderful humanitarian bombs which only kill enemy combatants. Not at all like those nasty Russian interventionist, illegal, village-ruining bombs.
11
After a decade of Shock and Awe, and the destruction of the institutions of Muslim States such that close to seven million people have become uprooted by the forces of democracy...in the name of democracy...from their countries of residence: it will be one heck of a propaganda coup if the West can turn this around to be the fault of Putin. Then again, he did put on a wonderful Winter Olympiad at Sochi, and according to pundits, and of course the President, it was not nearly as good as our lying eyes told us that it was it was. So anything is possible?
2
Russia is a European country but they're not taking any refugees, even though they helped to create this crisis, by giving weapons to Assad and encouraging him to use them. This helps to tie down the US in Syria and refugees are a hardship for the NATO nations that are sanctioning Russia over the Ukraine. The power game by Putin is quite clear and he's allowed to get away with this since he knows that no one wants a wider conflict.
1
Putin is a master at using the resources available owing it to his previous carer as a KGB officer. All the people who are saying he is digging a hole for himslef and his country are underestimating him.
Russia is willing to take refugees and some Syrians are taking the "Arctic route" to Norway through Russia but none of the refugees fleeing want to take refuge in Russia.
Too ridiculous to even be offended. Now it's all Russia's fault?
How about an investigation into why Saudi, Qatar, Turkey and the US suddenly said Assad had to go a few years ago? What about the pipeline he didn't want going thru Syria and the plan to take him out---Wikileaks has actual data, I don't understand why reporters ignore that trove of information.
What about some reporting about what's really going on over there w/o calling one world power who intervenes a monster while we've been doing it for years?
How about an investigation into why Saudi, Qatar, Turkey and the US suddenly said Assad had to go a few years ago? What about the pipeline he didn't want going thru Syria and the plan to take him out---Wikileaks has actual data, I don't understand why reporters ignore that trove of information.
What about some reporting about what's really going on over there w/o calling one world power who intervenes a monster while we've been doing it for years?
8
The US tried and failed to establish a democracy in Iraq, something the Left wanted in and before 2003. Putin is supporting a dictator murdering his own people. That's quite a difference. The Left's moral relativism is a threat to democracy and human rights globally.
4
Yeah, if you consider people that are killed for sake of democracy are less valuable, than people that are killed by dictator. How many people were killed during the attempt to built democracy in Iraq? And to what end? Destabilization of region that resulted in death of thousands, and in millions of refugees. At least, Putin didn't start the destabilization. The US did. That's quite a difference.
1
The US wanted nobly to give Iraq a democracy? Is that why the only places protected from the carnage after US bombings of Baghdad were the presidential palace and the oil ministry?
1
This is a situation beyond comprehension. These poor people have no where to turn but out to save their lives. There must be a concerted effort by all countries in the immediate areas surrounding Syria and the world to seek a military solution. Combining boots on the ground covertly with out let up as well as aerial bombardment at core targets must begin in earnest from all factions to arrest this scourge. There is no other way .
5
Ok, but whose boots on the ground? Are you rushing down to the recruiting station?
5
If the USA did what you want........boots on the ground and out and out war we would once again be blamed for interfering. Of course that's okay with liberals when they want us to. Just depends on the day I guess.
These surrounding Arab countries HATE each other. They work together as a group for financial and political reasons only. Among themselves they are different religious sects and social tribes,willing to erase each other.as they now do.
In Homs, Hama, and Aleppo, a Syrian government offensive backed by Russian air power has reactivated dormant front lines and swept through areas that had largely escaped the fighting.
[ These were areas that had been taken control of by terrorizing insurgents and were staging grounds for continual attacks on Damascus. Russia has only just entered the war in Syria, and has done so to end the terrorizing insurgency and to protect Syrians. ]
[ These were areas that had been taken control of by terrorizing insurgents and were staging grounds for continual attacks on Damascus. Russia has only just entered the war in Syria, and has done so to end the terrorizing insurgency and to protect Syrians. ]
4
Russia entered the war to prop up Assad and to protect its naval base in Syria. It doesn't care about the Syrian people. All people in opposition to Assad cannot be labelled "terrorists". Assad is a dictator and probably managed to rule by suppressing his opposition who during the Arab Spring saw an opportunity to rebel against him.
As you read in the article, Russia seems to be targeting or not taking care to avoid those Syrians living in those cities and Syrians fighting both the regime and ISIS. Interestingly Assad needs Iranians and Hezbollah to do its heavy fighting and Russia to carry out its air campaigns that attack Syrian rebels, Syrian residential areas and even hospitals treating Syrians who are hurt from Assad's and Russian bombs being dropped to "protect Syrians." Assad does not seem to represent much of Syria or Syrians and his and his allies support have been responsible for a majority of the Syrian casualties and refugee flight.
It strikes me as very much in Putin's interests to see Europe flooded with migrants it is struggling to cope with.
7
In addition to instability in the Middle East, the world most important center of oil and gas production.
. . . isn't it the intention of the Russians to make the flow of refugees to Europe grow to destabilize the European Union ?
4
Nope, it is not a win for the Russians
4
Yes, destabilizing the West is one of Putin's goals, and to date, he's doing it very effectively.
3
nope is not the answer .........
There's an old saying in politics and in retail; People vote with their feet. The refugees are leaving because they don't want to die either by Russian bombs, ISIS beheadings, barrel bombs and poison gas.
The Syrian refugees are desperate to live. The Russians are destined to make their point whatever that may be. Assad is determined to hold on no matter what the cost. ISIS continues it's own special brand of horror. And the rebels of the Free Syrian Army are battling Russia, ISIS and lack of supplies by the United States. In the meantime Turkey and Jordan are swelling with refugees and a border crisis as is Greece and most of Europe.
No wants the problem. No one wants the refugees. Iran and Russia want Assad to survive. Saudi Arabia, and other Arab nations may want Assad gone but don't want to really engage. They're waiting for the next American election.
Mr. Obama's retreat from world affairs and failure to use American leadership and initiative has created a hyper morass of small wars that are tearing the mid-East apart.
The dearth of American leadership and action has placed everyone on edge and led to military adventurism by Russia. How many more failed states will be created until Mr. Obama leaves office? How many more unfinished wars will continue to bring death and destruction?
The refugee crisis will continue until the United States begins engagement. Engagement at all levels.
The Syrian refugees are desperate to live. The Russians are destined to make their point whatever that may be. Assad is determined to hold on no matter what the cost. ISIS continues it's own special brand of horror. And the rebels of the Free Syrian Army are battling Russia, ISIS and lack of supplies by the United States. In the meantime Turkey and Jordan are swelling with refugees and a border crisis as is Greece and most of Europe.
No wants the problem. No one wants the refugees. Iran and Russia want Assad to survive. Saudi Arabia, and other Arab nations may want Assad gone but don't want to really engage. They're waiting for the next American election.
Mr. Obama's retreat from world affairs and failure to use American leadership and initiative has created a hyper morass of small wars that are tearing the mid-East apart.
The dearth of American leadership and action has placed everyone on edge and led to military adventurism by Russia. How many more failed states will be created until Mr. Obama leaves office? How many more unfinished wars will continue to bring death and destruction?
The refugee crisis will continue until the United States begins engagement. Engagement at all levels.
2
@Jay of Florida :> I agree with you that Obama is not a competent president, but this "hyper morass of small wars" as you put it started a few elections back before Obama. And the next election, if the winner isn't a true maverick, who's not beholden to the mega-corps and the MIC, won't change anything about U.S. foreign and domestic policies {Go Trump Go!!!}. And when it comes to the U.S. engaging, maybe we as a nation have been doing too much of that outside of our borders. How about we just mind our own "up to our eyeballs in debt " business for a change. Whatta ya say huh?
4
All that's missing is for China to rattle its swords a little louder. Southeast Asia has already responded with Viet Nam and others seeking US protection and Japan resuming its warrior cult.
And the US stands by drawing red lines.
And the US stands by drawing red lines.
I hope the U.S. stays out of it.why should Americans run to fields to die when their own citizens run away from the fields of death? They need to sort their problems out.
Yes, commenters, let's blame everyone except the real source of this lunacy: a bunch of 14th century tribal, religious fanatics with 21st century weapons, led by a murderous dictator. Whether it's your next door neighbor or internationally, when you interfere with someone else's dysfunction, you wind up getting battered yourself. Enough!
19
The Russians have not upped the stakes in this civil war which has lingered for 4 years. It is decisive. Where do you stand? Did you think the attrition game would continue with drones and other push button devices? It's boots on the ground and sheer fighting will that wins. In the end, ISIS and other fundamentalists groups will be eliminated.
To be sure Assad is not a desirable character. However, the tribalism of segragation and extermination by the factious groups offer no stability. They are the main factors to contend with.
Who is worse? The Saudi backed fundamentalists or Assad?
To be sure Assad is not a desirable character. However, the tribalism of segragation and extermination by the factious groups offer no stability. They are the main factors to contend with.
Who is worse? The Saudi backed fundamentalists or Assad?
10
Does anyone actually believe this articles first two paragraphs which implies that Russian warplane attacks is somehow responsible for the thousands of Syrians leaving their country in a hurried exiles.
One only needs to re-examine what the USA's role has been in the Middle East for the past 16 years to understand who is really responsible for the current mess in the Middle East. An incredible lack of leadership, both by the Bush Administration and then by the Obama Administration has resulted in thousands of deaths throughout the Middle East, and is what has actually created the unstable environment found throughout the Middle East today and is responsible in large part for the migration of Middle Easterners from not only Syria but also from Iraq and other Middle Eastern countries to flow into a number of European Countries.
This article appears to be pure propaganda which is an attempt to convenience the American Public that it is the terrible Russians who are creating the problems in the Middle East, when in fact it has been us Americans all along, starting with President Bush and continue with President Obama. Under President Bush it was stupidity and nativity , under Obama it is simply not knowing how to lead or what to do. Add these two together and what do you get. You get today's reality in the Middle East. So, you really believe that its the big bad Russians? Take a hard look in the mirror and you might begin to see the truth.
One only needs to re-examine what the USA's role has been in the Middle East for the past 16 years to understand who is really responsible for the current mess in the Middle East. An incredible lack of leadership, both by the Bush Administration and then by the Obama Administration has resulted in thousands of deaths throughout the Middle East, and is what has actually created the unstable environment found throughout the Middle East today and is responsible in large part for the migration of Middle Easterners from not only Syria but also from Iraq and other Middle Eastern countries to flow into a number of European Countries.
This article appears to be pure propaganda which is an attempt to convenience the American Public that it is the terrible Russians who are creating the problems in the Middle East, when in fact it has been us Americans all along, starting with President Bush and continue with President Obama. Under President Bush it was stupidity and nativity , under Obama it is simply not knowing how to lead or what to do. Add these two together and what do you get. You get today's reality in the Middle East. So, you really believe that its the big bad Russians? Take a hard look in the mirror and you might begin to see the truth.
37
This Times report includes in the middle the link to the extensive photo-text report A Family Swept Up In The Migrant Tide, the Majid family that ended its journey in Sweden. The Times ended that story by telling its readers that the family was not satisfied with the safe haven that Sweden had given them and by quoting an anonymous Swede who supposedly told a family member "We did not ask you to come." Tonight on Swedish Public TV news we heard a young refugee woman from Syria who said in English that the accommodations being provided in their very first days here were not acceptable so half of the 60 arrivals shown protested by refusing to leave the bus.
I suggest that the Times present a deeper study of the situation in Sweden, the country that thus far is taking in more refugees per capita than any other country. (US intake = zero). The Times reporters looking in from "outside" might be able to learn what the conditions were in the places from which these refugees had fled and if they had not understood that no country, not even Sweden, can immediately provide apartment quality housing for, in the case of Sweden, 8000 new arrivals every week.
Only-NeverInSweden.blogspot.com
Dual citizen-USA-SE
I suggest that the Times present a deeper study of the situation in Sweden, the country that thus far is taking in more refugees per capita than any other country. (US intake = zero). The Times reporters looking in from "outside" might be able to learn what the conditions were in the places from which these refugees had fled and if they had not understood that no country, not even Sweden, can immediately provide apartment quality housing for, in the case of Sweden, 8000 new arrivals every week.
Only-NeverInSweden.blogspot.com
Dual citizen-USA-SE
27
Actually the US intake is slated to be 10,000 at least in 2015, but I agree with the rest of what you say.
3
@ Dan Stackhouse - Dan, "slated" is not the same as "already taken in". Furthermore, let's put your "slated" number in perspective.
Sweden-population 9,600,000
USA-population 316,000,000
Total seeking asylum in Sweden last week (vecka 43) = 9,700
Probable total seeking asylum 2015 = 160,000
Children coming alone in 2015 = 20,000
This afternoon at the Red Cross we who are responsible for Träna svenska will spend a couple of hours with a small sample of those seeking asylum and others who already have been granted asylum. Those 2 h will be among the best I will spend this week but they also drive home that those we talk with are the tiniest possible drop in a very large bucket.
Thanks for your reply.
Larry
Sweden-population 9,600,000
USA-population 316,000,000
Total seeking asylum in Sweden last week (vecka 43) = 9,700
Probable total seeking asylum 2015 = 160,000
Children coming alone in 2015 = 20,000
This afternoon at the Red Cross we who are responsible for Träna svenska will spend a couple of hours with a small sample of those seeking asylum and others who already have been granted asylum. Those 2 h will be among the best I will spend this week but they also drive home that those we talk with are the tiniest possible drop in a very large bucket.
Thanks for your reply.
Larry
Oh.... it's all Russia's fault now, is it? Who was it that left such devastating footprints in Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya? Who was it that stoked armed rebellion in Syria? There is a Yeti in the room and it is not Russia.
30
Having had my favorable comment on Pres. Carter's op-ed not selected for printing, I'll try again. We need multi-party talks. Assad isn't going anywhere as long as he has breath, and we may not want him to leave. Removing ISIL is job one, starting in Iraq and then moving to Syria to degrade them. Safe areas must be carved out for refugees. Germany must be pressured by both the rest of the EC and yes, the U.S, to call a time out and a closure of borders, at least for a year to sort out the huge numbers there or in transit now. They are a magnet feeding the flow.
Putin's aircraft are already having maintenance issues showing the lack of Russian readiness for an expeditionary adventure. He will soon need some face saving negotiated result favorable to Assad, the rump little Syria he controls and Iranian proxy interests. Let's get to the table now. We can always walk away if the other countries or interests prove intractable.
Putin's aircraft are already having maintenance issues showing the lack of Russian readiness for an expeditionary adventure. He will soon need some face saving negotiated result favorable to Assad, the rump little Syria he controls and Iranian proxy interests. Let's get to the table now. We can always walk away if the other countries or interests prove intractable.
8
All war planes taking an active role need huge maintenance, all of them. not one can arrive, park, and be reused the next morning.
Thus, yes their planes are taking a beating too. However, being Russia, they will just ship them home, and bring in new ones, and overhaul them back home.
Sorry Liberals, this is not going to stop Russia.
Thus, yes their planes are taking a beating too. However, being Russia, they will just ship them home, and bring in new ones, and overhaul them back home.
Sorry Liberals, this is not going to stop Russia.
1
Sadly, what we're seeing in Syria are the wages of western failure to act in the face of well-documented crimes against humanity. This in itself is a crime but not as blatant as Vladimir Putin's deliberate dousing of mass malevolence with lethal kerosene.
Putin is a big boy heading a big country so there's no way that he will be carted to The Hague. But he should be. As for Assad, he should have already been there for years. We should be embarrasses. Putin and Assad should be arrested and prosecuted. They both know full well what they are doing.
www,endthemadnessnow.org
Putin is a big boy heading a big country so there's no way that he will be carted to The Hague. But he should be. As for Assad, he should have already been there for years. We should be embarrasses. Putin and Assad should be arrested and prosecuted. They both know full well what they are doing.
www,endthemadnessnow.org
4
It was at the beginning of the Second Gulf War when, responding to a rumor Saddam Husain was ensconced in a deep bunker in Bagdad, an American warship in the Gulf fired a missile that penetrated into the bunker and killed hundreds of people in a horrible death by fire who had sought safety there. Saddam wasn't there. The individual who pulled the trigger has to be suffering remorse to this day.
5
The answer is to supply them with more weapons. And, if necessary, tactical nuclear weapons.
Al ready been discussed and when a person starts speaking about tactical nuclear weapons. Arrest them, don`t let them anywhere near red buttons.
One button may say lunch, the other launch. Ferdinand would confuse the two.
One button may say lunch, the other launch. Ferdinand would confuse the two.
2
How pathetic is this attempt to denigrate Putin's move to crush the Syrian terrorists. As if the European refugee crisis is caused by Russia rather than the last two administration's perpetual war and overthrow of the governments of Iraq, Libya and much of Syria.
20
The United Nations has failed the people of Syria, as has Barack Obama and every other first world leader on the planet. There is no excuse for world powers who stood by impotent. merely watching the devolution of the Syrian situation. If world leaders were not smart enough or compassionate enough to help in significant ways, and they were not, they all get an F, including the U.S representative to the United Nations, Samantha Powers. Don't all human beings deserve better than mute ineffective leaders?
8
The Arab states in what is called the Levant or Near East (Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan) were all carved out by British and French imperialists after World War I with the intention of promoting their own regional interests and creating spheres of influence and trade. In doing so they followed a common trend in favoring and elevating certain minority groups to the status of a ruling class while leaving the majority of the population unrepresented, democratically or otherwise. This wasn't unique to the French or British (the Ottomans governed the whole Middle East in much the same way for 400 years), but much of the discord in this region is a result of these short-sighted century-old policies. Add in the dogmatic states of Saudi Arabia and Iran promoting their particular interpretations of Islam, global dependence on Middle Eastern oil, the creation of Israel, and technical modernity, and you have a powder keg.
George W. Bush's incredibly foolish misadventure in Iraq set the powder keg off, and the liberal optimism of the Arab Spring gave way to chaos and sectarian violence, fracturing states and toppling or weakening dictators that had held nations together. Now the Arab Levant is in pieces, and I'm not sure that Obama or Putin or all the king's men can put it back together. Even if Assad "wins" the war with Russian help, the Syrian government that emerges will be weaker and less authoritative than it was before, the same as post-invasion Iraq and postwar Lebanon.
George W. Bush's incredibly foolish misadventure in Iraq set the powder keg off, and the liberal optimism of the Arab Spring gave way to chaos and sectarian violence, fracturing states and toppling or weakening dictators that had held nations together. Now the Arab Levant is in pieces, and I'm not sure that Obama or Putin or all the king's men can put it back together. Even if Assad "wins" the war with Russian help, the Syrian government that emerges will be weaker and less authoritative than it was before, the same as post-invasion Iraq and postwar Lebanon.
32
AC - "George W. Bush's incredibly foolish misadventure in Iraq set the powder keg off,"
How would you describe this administration's "Arab Spring" in Egypt, Libya and Syria long after GWB left the White House?
How would you describe this administration's "Arab Spring" in Egypt, Libya and Syria long after GWB left the White House?
7
incredibly foolish...
1
So now it's Russia causing the refugee flows? What about summarising how America contributed (or caused more likely) the situations on the ground that led to the refugee crisis in the first place?
20
We should all be ashamed for what we allow our governments to get away with.
9
His fans did vote him into office twice. You get what you elect I suppose.
2
If things would turn out the way the US wants them to the fighting thus far would be a joke compared to what will happen if the US gets its wish. Obama and his team keep saying that Assad must go, however they themselves have no idea what they mean when they say this.
Assad can go as an individual person, and he will no longer be the leader of Syria, or Assad can go as in the whole of the Syrian government, every last ministry will be gone, and in its place rebel groups who are predominantly Islamist, if not al Quida, will take over and be the new rulers of Syria.
Now even though no rational person would think this is a good solution this is what the reality of US policy in Syria is, based on what the US is doing. They are arming rebel groups who are fighting the Syrian army and this can be only for the purpose of the rebels defeating the army. They are enraged at Russia for getting in the way and not allowing the rebels to win.
And the idea that they are arming only "moderate rebels" shows how clueless they are as to how they want Assad to go. The moderates and Nusra are all fighting together united as a single army, The Army of Conquerors. But team Obama does not want this army to win, they tell Russia to bomb this army, but not the moderates.
So the idea is that the moderates will defeat Assad and overrun Syria, but in their pipe dream the other rebels will not follow behind them. So it is the US that wants to keep this fight going till the end, not the Russians.
Assad can go as an individual person, and he will no longer be the leader of Syria, or Assad can go as in the whole of the Syrian government, every last ministry will be gone, and in its place rebel groups who are predominantly Islamist, if not al Quida, will take over and be the new rulers of Syria.
Now even though no rational person would think this is a good solution this is what the reality of US policy in Syria is, based on what the US is doing. They are arming rebel groups who are fighting the Syrian army and this can be only for the purpose of the rebels defeating the army. They are enraged at Russia for getting in the way and not allowing the rebels to win.
And the idea that they are arming only "moderate rebels" shows how clueless they are as to how they want Assad to go. The moderates and Nusra are all fighting together united as a single army, The Army of Conquerors. But team Obama does not want this army to win, they tell Russia to bomb this army, but not the moderates.
So the idea is that the moderates will defeat Assad and overrun Syria, but in their pipe dream the other rebels will not follow behind them. So it is the US that wants to keep this fight going till the end, not the Russians.
16
So let me get this, there are 3 factions in this war. The legitimate government of Syria, the rebel government without governing structure except representatives in London, and ISIS, the international terrorist organization. And people are debating which group to back to govern Syria.
Also amazing is people haven't figure out if you cut funding to rebel and ISIS, take away their ability to wage war, the war would be over and no more refugees.
Also amazing is people haven't figure out if you cut funding to rebel and ISIS, take away their ability to wage war, the war would be over and no more refugees.
17
Because it is not about ISIS, but about overthrowing Assad. It appears al Nusra, ISIS , etc. are being used as our proxy army to effect regime change mainly for Israel and Saudi Arabia, etc..
1
Right, because Israel wants ISIS on their border.
3
As Senator McCain remarked on Charlie Rose, Putin has a goal and a strategy and is using tactics to achieve his goal. Putin wants to accomplish at least three things: (1) To restore Bashar Assad as the puppet government of Syria, thus restoring Russia's role as a major player in the Middle East; (2) Savage, check, and police any force of radical Islam that could threaten Russia; and (3) Fully exploit the collateral benefit of politically, economically, and militarily destabilizing Europe with a flood of migrant that sets Europeans against each other, destroying European unity, that drains Europe's resources to deal with the migrant crisis, and that destroys the political support and legitimacy of Europe's governing political parties, as Europeans rebel against migrants. Putin's military appears to be accomplishing his goals.
The U.S., on the other hand, either has no practical goals or has sound goals but no effective strategy for achieving them. It is hard to say that President Obama erred in not arming moderates, while there were still some moderates, doing his own version of Charlie Wilson's War. But this much is clear: Doing nothing but jawboning and doing limited airstrikes has not been enough to control radical Islam. And the U.S., as history from Afghanistan to Libya has taught, can never simply abandon parts of the world were its security interests and/or other important interests are at stake but must stay involved to guarantee its security and prosperity.
The U.S., on the other hand, either has no practical goals or has sound goals but no effective strategy for achieving them. It is hard to say that President Obama erred in not arming moderates, while there were still some moderates, doing his own version of Charlie Wilson's War. But this much is clear: Doing nothing but jawboning and doing limited airstrikes has not been enough to control radical Islam. And the U.S., as history from Afghanistan to Libya has taught, can never simply abandon parts of the world were its security interests and/or other important interests are at stake but must stay involved to guarantee its security and prosperity.
19
There is a fourth goal to Putin's involvement -- namely higher oil prices, created through destabilizing the region.
4
Dear Mark U: Your point is very well taken, if Putin can reestablish OPEC as an effective price-setter. With the discovery of new massive oil fields off Brazil's coast and even a big on in Israel, and the oil supplies from fracking, I don't think that OPEC will be able to set the price of oil much above $50 to $60 per barrel in the foreseeable future.
But even $60/barrel prices would improve Russia's economy, so there may be something in what you say. But the analysis needs someone who is much better than me in determining the long-term supply and demand conditions for oil and gas, given know supplies, the time that it will take to develop new conventional oil and gas fields, and current technologies. But, depending on that analysis, your point has less or more force.
But even $60/barrel prices would improve Russia's economy, so there may be something in what you say. But the analysis needs someone who is much better than me in determining the long-term supply and demand conditions for oil and gas, given know supplies, the time that it will take to develop new conventional oil and gas fields, and current technologies. But, depending on that analysis, your point has less or more force.
My only disagreement is that I think the primary soviet goal is #3
1
I don't know if I have the capacity to read more about this awful humanitarian crisis/civil war in Syria. Millions of people are displaced, without homes, enough food or medical supplies, and psychologically traumatized. Several hundreds of thousands dead and even more wounded. This follows a similar humanitarian crisis and migration in Iraq beginning in 2003.
The United States as the world's sole superpower does have the capacity to exert pressure and bring about a cease-fire. We did little during the Bosnian war and genocide for a very long time and then when the Clinton administration became fully engaged a solution was found and peace accord signed in Dayton.
We need similar action now - not more lines in the sand, not maneuvering for political advantage, not waiting to see if it gets even worse, not sticking to the same old talking points. The relative inaction by the Obama administration during one of the major crises of our generation is painful to me. Where is Secretary Kerry in all of this?
Don't do stupid stuff is not a good strategy. How about doing some smart stuff?
The United States as the world's sole superpower does have the capacity to exert pressure and bring about a cease-fire. We did little during the Bosnian war and genocide for a very long time and then when the Clinton administration became fully engaged a solution was found and peace accord signed in Dayton.
We need similar action now - not more lines in the sand, not maneuvering for political advantage, not waiting to see if it gets even worse, not sticking to the same old talking points. The relative inaction by the Obama administration during one of the major crises of our generation is painful to me. Where is Secretary Kerry in all of this?
Don't do stupid stuff is not a good strategy. How about doing some smart stuff?
5
how about you take some people in your home
3
There is something our government can do today, that would end that war in weeks - STOP SUPPLYING ALQUEDA.
That is a very simple solution. If we stop, and if we stop helping Saudi Arabia and our dictator in Turkey in their efforts to supply Nusra, alQueda and our pals the rebels, the war would be over in weeks.
But I doubt that will happen.
That is a very simple solution. If we stop, and if we stop helping Saudi Arabia and our dictator in Turkey in their efforts to supply Nusra, alQueda and our pals the rebels, the war would be over in weeks.
But I doubt that will happen.
What surprises me there are still Syrians being displaced. Have they all not left or died from multi-pronged attacks? All this show of superior strength by Russia, ISIS, Assad with their superior weaponry is nothing short of cowardice. Preying on the weak is no valor!
1
Just think, if the rebel factions had not tried to overthrow Assad in 2011 or so, 200,000 Syrians would still be alive and none of this would be happening.
I guess they would rather be dead than alive under Assad.
I guess they would rather be dead than alive under Assad.
13
It's all Russia's fault, seriously, we had nothing to do with this. "Russia Derangement Syndrome" at first I thought was humorous, I now think is real. Our major newspapers (and Russia's) appear to be organs of the state, competing propaganda, no real analysis, and no sense of irony.
18
You're equating the New York Tines and the Russian media? The degree of ignorance on this thread is truly frightening.
1
Assad shows such extreme selfishness in putting his own well being above that of millions of people's lives. Being literally drowned in blood would be a fitting end to this wretch.
2
As a Russian American, who have lived in US for over 7 years, I am really amazed at the amount of negativity that gets published by New York Times about Russia. I have seen the situation from both sides, since I often visit my extended family in Russia. I am no supporter of corruption or some measures that Russian government takes, but: Dear New York Times, I can't believe you're blaming Russia for the situation that some other country has most contributed to! I have always viewed NYT as a respectable information source, but reading this just made me sick! Why don't you write about free higher education, FREE healthcare in Russia? Why have you never mentioned that women in Russia are eligible for 18 months maternity leave while maintaining up to 80% of their nominal salary while on leave? Why don't you mention all cool initiatives that local artists, musicians, etc. are doing in Russia? Most of my friends in Russia are learning a couple of foreign languages, are interested in US, and I would say my every 3rd friend of my age who lives in Russia, has traveled to US and NYC. We cannot provide the world with an awfully biased picture of reality.
96
Sounds cool. How many refugees has Russia accepted so far?
1
Careful, not a competition of numbers you want to get into.
Dare I say the Statue of Liberty is crying through all of this.
Dare I say the Statue of Liberty is crying through all of this.
1
Russia has supported Syrian migrants for a very long time, even before crisis. There are a lot of Syrians in Russia, namely in Moscow and Moscow area who work for blue-collar industries. There are many companies in Russia specializing in textile manufacturing and other services, run by Syrians. Although economically weakened (like everyone knows) Russia may not seem like a primary refugee magnet and is harder to access geographically. It is no secret that Russian economy has not been doing as well, as for instance German, which may seem as a place that could offer more for immigrants, but still there are numerous migrants that have been helped in the north of Russia while making their way to Germany.
2
In early September Mr. Putin said that "without Russia the refugee crisis would be far worse." As usual, he didn't elaborate on that. I think he'll try to use the Syrian refugees as bargaining chip. That way he expects to be respected and taken as an equal.
In his yearning for respect Mr. Putin reminds me of "respect my authority" Cartman form South Park. Both don't really know how to get respected.
But Mr. Putin's yearning for respect always leads to ever greater human misery and longer and longer lines of refugees.
Funny, though, that Russia doesn't have a refugee crisis.
In his yearning for respect Mr. Putin reminds me of "respect my authority" Cartman form South Park. Both don't really know how to get respected.
But Mr. Putin's yearning for respect always leads to ever greater human misery and longer and longer lines of refugees.
Funny, though, that Russia doesn't have a refugee crisis.
3
Harsh as it is, Russia is doing the right thing here. Syria will not be inhabitable within about a century, no matter what, the water's going away and the temperature is rising. What needs to be done, like it or not, is reduce the population as much as possible, and drive everyone out. If they stay, their children or grandchildren will all starve to death.
It's unfortunate, but the region is not going to be habitable before long, and there are no cultures in the region which are of any use to humanity. No new noble concepts, no scientific breakthroughs, nothing of use since Islam arrived on the scene. Nothing against Islam particularly, but it hasn't been at all helpful in human advancement, and like most conservative religions, does its best to prevent any new ideas.
So Russia is just doing what must be done, and what we are too weak and shortsighted to do. I hope they succeed.
It's unfortunate, but the region is not going to be habitable before long, and there are no cultures in the region which are of any use to humanity. No new noble concepts, no scientific breakthroughs, nothing of use since Islam arrived on the scene. Nothing against Islam particularly, but it hasn't been at all helpful in human advancement, and like most conservative religions, does its best to prevent any new ideas.
So Russia is just doing what must be done, and what we are too weak and shortsighted to do. I hope they succeed.
48
Really I'm shocked that this overwhelmingly negative comment got a NYT pick. To clarify, I'm not really campaigning for genocide here, I've just gotten extremely bitter and sarcastic about what's been going on in Syria for years now. And the grim, awful truth is that the region is rapidly becoming uninhabitable, and the inhabitants are working on warfare rather than preparing for what is coming.
2
What? Drive them out by killing them? Sounds like Vietnam - we saved that village by destroying it.
2
So, you don't think that there are any worthwhile cultures in the region. Nothing since Islam arrived on the scene! Perhaps, you should read a little about the subject before voicing your opinion.
You obviously never heard of the Islamic Golden Age from about 800 ad till 1300ad or even later. When Europe was in the dark ages Damascus and Bhagdad were centres of science, mathematics and the arts. This was one of the great golden ages of human civilisation.
You obviously never heard of the Islamic Golden Age from about 800 ad till 1300ad or even later. When Europe was in the dark ages Damascus and Bhagdad were centres of science, mathematics and the arts. This was one of the great golden ages of human civilisation.
3
Obviously,when there is growing intensity of an ongoing war people fleeing that war happen accordingly,nothing new.But,Russia is not guilt of that,we have to travel many thousands of miles west (right to the U.S.) to find some of those responsible.The completely incompetent response to the so-called "Arab Springs" by the U.S.(and other western countries) is to blame,Assad did what any average dictator was expected to do.Those who supported and promoted the downfall of Assad: "Assad must go!" (we all remember),ignoring the complexity -religious,ethnic,historic- behind the scene should accept all responsibility.Hillary Clinton the completely incompetent U.S. Secretary of State at that critical time must respond for all that followed (not Benghazi,or e-mails),Obama is also to blame because he was not strong enough to reject the bad advice given by his Secretary of State.It was pathetic to see Hillary,in Cairo,trying to convince Morsi of the benefits of a western style democracy,sadly,democracy was not Morsi´s agenda.Now,implicitly the U.S. is recognizing the disastrous foreign policy setup in reaction to the "Arab Springs",but,it is too late.
12
If the article is correct, it sounds like Putin may be achieving two things at once: prop up Assad while simultaneously saddling Europe with more refugees and hence sow dissent in Europe (between those who welcome them and those who don't).
4
If this were 1941, the headline would be "Many Obstacles Are Seen to U.S,Canada and Australia, Taking in Large Number of Jewish Refugees". We should all be ashamed - this country is special and should exercise more compassion. Our leaders have destabilized the Middle East (due to incompetence, not bad intentions) but now this is all Europe's problem ?
We are all immigrants or descendants of immigrants. At the very least we should use our still considerable influence to get our ME "allies" to accept refugees if the public at large is too busy with the beginning of football season to remember what this country is about. But I am confident that if the media did a better job of explaining the magnitude of this crisis, the American people would rise to the occasion.
We are all immigrants or descendants of immigrants. At the very least we should use our still considerable influence to get our ME "allies" to accept refugees if the public at large is too busy with the beginning of football season to remember what this country is about. But I am confident that if the media did a better job of explaining the magnitude of this crisis, the American people would rise to the occasion.
4
The mass displacement of the Syrian population, and creating a greater flood of refugees to Europe, is clearly one of Putin's cynical intentions. Putin can see the kinds of frictions this issue has already caused in Europe, so believes he stands to benefit for any addition chaos he can cause among the nations that have sanctions against Russia. For Putin, he could care less about the human dimension, for him these are just tacits.
4
First, let me be the first to thank Mssrs. Fahim and Samaan for writing this article in support of the U.S. State Department. It is nice to see an important U.S. newspaper publishing puff pieces to support the U.S. government.
Second, I could certainly find many reasons to criticize President Obama. That the world has stood by and allowed this to happen to Syria is an international, not a national disgrace.
But the fact is that Obama never had any good options when it came to Syria. We could have gone in sooner. We could have gone in later. But when Iraq broke up thanks to Bush's puppet Al-Maliki, the die was cast. Millions of people would flee ISIS for Europe. What we need to defeat ISIS are real allies. And no one in NATO or the Middle East is a real ally. The fact is that we cannot defeat ISIS without Russia's and Iran's help.
Period.
Second, I could certainly find many reasons to criticize President Obama. That the world has stood by and allowed this to happen to Syria is an international, not a national disgrace.
But the fact is that Obama never had any good options when it came to Syria. We could have gone in sooner. We could have gone in later. But when Iraq broke up thanks to Bush's puppet Al-Maliki, the die was cast. Millions of people would flee ISIS for Europe. What we need to defeat ISIS are real allies. And no one in NATO or the Middle East is a real ally. The fact is that we cannot defeat ISIS without Russia's and Iran's help.
Period.
17
"The fact is that we cannot defeat ISIS without Russia's and Iran's help."
We could easily defeat ISIS if we had a president with the guts to use tactical nuclear weapons.
We could easily defeat ISIS if we had a president with the guts to use tactical nuclear weapons.
2
My heart goes out to these people, who have been experiencing war for nearly 5 years now. Who are victims of terrorism, whether by land or by air. Who seem to have given up hope in these last few months. Especially after the Russian bombing began.
And the irony that now, once so many dissidents of the Asad (a sad) regime have given up and left - now Russia and Syria propose and election!
I cannot imagine what it would be to have to flee your home and trek across Europe in mud, rain, wind. Never knowing if you'll be targeted by criminals. Not sure where your next meal is coming from. Where you'll sleep that night. Or if you can sleep.
This is a rolling disaster. Of epic proportions. Worthy of some Epic story teller from long ago. With untold consequences awaiting down the decades to come. As entitled populations, some of them capable of violence, confront a tide of refugees trying to come to terms with life in a new land, new language, all the uncertainty of culture shock.
God help them! God help Europe. And may we all recognize how blessed we are, no matter how many problems we have.
And the irony that now, once so many dissidents of the Asad (a sad) regime have given up and left - now Russia and Syria propose and election!
I cannot imagine what it would be to have to flee your home and trek across Europe in mud, rain, wind. Never knowing if you'll be targeted by criminals. Not sure where your next meal is coming from. Where you'll sleep that night. Or if you can sleep.
This is a rolling disaster. Of epic proportions. Worthy of some Epic story teller from long ago. With untold consequences awaiting down the decades to come. As entitled populations, some of them capable of violence, confront a tide of refugees trying to come to terms with life in a new land, new language, all the uncertainty of culture shock.
God help them! God help Europe. And may we all recognize how blessed we are, no matter how many problems we have.
2
Interesting. I notice that the number of recommendations for a comment increases in correlation with the comment's downplaying the responsibility for this mess on Iran, Hezbullah, and Russia and instead blaming others. (Blaming Israel, as incredible as that is, for the war and destruction in Syria is instantly worth a bonanza of recs!).
Says something about the NYT readership, sadly.
Says something about the NYT readership, sadly.
5
Don't be fooled for a second that the russian/iranian internet troll army is not operating aggressively here. Over the past 12-24 months I have seen a massive number of new commentors extolling how "great" russia and putin are, and how russia's foreign moves are either justifiable or understandable in the face of US?Nato "aggression"; all laughable nonsense.
1
Incredible. Since March 2011, expats from England, the United States and the Gulf kingdoms, direct interference from Qatar, Turkey and Saudi Arabia, indirect interference from the US and its European allies as well as Jordan, Lebanon and Israel have all contributed to the destruction and bloodletting that is now the Syrian civil war. Foreign fighters have crossed into Syria to take up arms against Asad. Al Qaeda, America’s sworn enemy, is the spearhead of the Army of Conquest that now receives American arms through the FSA, and Congress is considering establishing safe zones that will provide al Qaeda and the Army of Conquest a secure base to continue the war. But Russia takes an active role to protect its interests in Syria and American media sees this as prolonging the Syrian tragedy borders on incredulity. Rather than ratchet the conflict further, we should take up Moscow’s offer of bringing about a settlement. It may be impossible to recreate the former state, but an end to the present carnage should be the goal.
21
At this point, well educated Americans should ask the following question: Since WWII. when was last time undercover American foreign policy was successful in fostering American interests and winning at the end?
6
Dear Uzi Nogueira,
Well since WWII, I'd say our interests were successfully fostered in: Afghanistan vs. the Russians; Panama vs. Noriega; Haiti vs. Aristide; Iran vs. the Shah; Yugoslavia vs. Yugoslavia; West Germany vs. East Germany (Berlin airlift, fall of the wall), and several others. They didn't all turn out great but some changes held up, don't be so negative.
Also we have barely gotten involved in Syria at all, I don't think this one is our fault.
Well since WWII, I'd say our interests were successfully fostered in: Afghanistan vs. the Russians; Panama vs. Noriega; Haiti vs. Aristide; Iran vs. the Shah; Yugoslavia vs. Yugoslavia; West Germany vs. East Germany (Berlin airlift, fall of the wall), and several others. They didn't all turn out great but some changes held up, don't be so negative.
Also we have barely gotten involved in Syria at all, I don't think this one is our fault.
Pinochet comes to mind. The War in Grenada was successful too!
Duh. We have lots of proof the Russians go about things their way. Ever see any pictures of Checyna.
4
The Russian are going in to win. The US is not trying to win, or for that matter even destroy ISIS. If you are not going into win there is no point in wasting money on a war. And winning does involve civilians getting killed -- just as in WWII.
6
I've said it before and I'll say it again: The Russians will have no reservations about killing innocent women and children if it serves their defense of the Butcher of Damascus.
Red O. Greene, Albuquerque, NM, USA
Red O. Greene, Albuquerque, NM, USA
3
What do you suppose they say about us?
It seems the whole world is lacking in moral structure... all due to religious, economic and cultural differences. These factors have combined and then clashed to shape hateful political agendas that are incongruous with a "kinder, gentler" human living condition. As part of the boomer generation, I am everyday disheartened by the world I'm leaving my descendants to struggle and navigate around.
2
We already know the symptoms for Republican Ennui.
Of course, they would like another war somewhere, to increase their armaments profits.
Of course, they would like another war somewhere, to increase their armaments profits.
6
How many Syrians are currently "sheltering in place" following our very own 3 month bombardment to liberate Kobane from ISIS (victory in January 2015) that reportedly left that city in rubble? 300,000 of that canton's 400,000 population fled ... 200,000 initially fled ISIS, another 100,000 apparently left during our bombardment.
Oh wait, we (or was it Erdogan) predicted the battle for Allepo would spark another wave of refugees ... lucky us, we can blame Russia this time .... Lucky American memories are so short or they might wonder about the millions of Afghan and Iraqi refugees still on the books more than a decade later ... too bad we don't have actual reports to suss out the composition of these various waves of refugees -- waves which have reportedly contained quite a number of years-in-transit Afghans and Iraqis -- let's blame the Russians ... that's the ticket.
Oh wait, we (or was it Erdogan) predicted the battle for Allepo would spark another wave of refugees ... lucky us, we can blame Russia this time .... Lucky American memories are so short or they might wonder about the millions of Afghan and Iraqi refugees still on the books more than a decade later ... too bad we don't have actual reports to suss out the composition of these various waves of refugees -- waves which have reportedly contained quite a number of years-in-transit Afghans and Iraqis -- let's blame the Russians ... that's the ticket.
26
It's hard to believe that there could actually be a "rise" to a violent situation that was as worse as it possibly could be. Or does that characterization simply express the hopelessness that is Syria, a crisis that is indefinable and leaving journalists with the dubious task of trying to quantify and distinguish something that is unimaginable. No doubt this must come as a real blow to the egos of we in the world who act as if we have power, when in fact that the reality is there is none. If only we could have the courage to admit to such, maybe only then could any solutions arise. But until such a day, false hope is all the world has to offer . . . which ain't saying much.
2
Oh boy, every day our media becomes the mouthpiece of the Pentagon. Now it's the Russians who created the chaos in Syria. Here we see the "big lie"!- say it often enough, people will believe it. The truth is we and our proxies created the mess in the Middle East. We've become the evil empire with our empire of bases, where the sun never sets.
59
This article blames Russia for causing people to flee their homes, making it sound as if Russia is doing something bad and should not be doing it.
Now while the matter of Russia's involvement is something to be debated, nobody would argue that in a war parties should refrain from fighting because of there are civilians in the area. This is certainly true in a war that is being fought almost exclusively in areas with civilians.
Yet this is the point of this article. That even though a war is going on, the parties must refrain from engaging in battle because this has a bad effect on the civilians in the area.
In addition after more than 4 years of this war it only now that the world started to view the fighting as being a problem because it causes people to become refuges. For example after years of Assad dropping barrel bombs, committing war crimes on a massive scale, its only now that there are some who are talking about doing something to stop it, like making a no fly zone.
The reason for this new focus is for the most selfish of reasons. And that is as long as the bombs were just killing civilians by the hundreds of thousands it was of no concern to the west. However now that those bombs are causing a refuge crisis in the west something must be done to stop it.
This is despicable. The mass murder of hundreds of thousands may go on for years, but if it begins to inconvenience the west by causing a refuge crisis it must stop at once.
Now while the matter of Russia's involvement is something to be debated, nobody would argue that in a war parties should refrain from fighting because of there are civilians in the area. This is certainly true in a war that is being fought almost exclusively in areas with civilians.
Yet this is the point of this article. That even though a war is going on, the parties must refrain from engaging in battle because this has a bad effect on the civilians in the area.
In addition after more than 4 years of this war it only now that the world started to view the fighting as being a problem because it causes people to become refuges. For example after years of Assad dropping barrel bombs, committing war crimes on a massive scale, its only now that there are some who are talking about doing something to stop it, like making a no fly zone.
The reason for this new focus is for the most selfish of reasons. And that is as long as the bombs were just killing civilians by the hundreds of thousands it was of no concern to the west. However now that those bombs are causing a refuge crisis in the west something must be done to stop it.
This is despicable. The mass murder of hundreds of thousands may go on for years, but if it begins to inconvenience the west by causing a refuge crisis it must stop at once.
6
It such a sad state of affairs where everything we supposed to learn from history, we learned and ignored. All the major parties in creating this catastrophe, sparing none, knowingly acted in foolish manner to end up here. And the remaining parties who had not joined in seem to have now joined in cause they too want to be ignorant, foolish and have their share of the massacre.
Now the press, including the New York Times has taken sides in the false propaganda.
The Syrian civil war is an example of human foolishness, ignorance and depravity. And all sides are responsible.
Now the press, including the New York Times has taken sides in the false propaganda.
The Syrian civil war is an example of human foolishness, ignorance and depravity. And all sides are responsible.
10
"God will provide" is the lie that drives the present mass extinction.
2
The rise of ISIS and destruction of the Syrian people occurred under the watchful eyes and policy failures of the Obama administration.
As Iran, Hezbullah, and Russia unloaded billions in weaponry, intervened with forces on the ground, and now massive air strikes, Obama withdrew the US as a player.
What began as a rebellion by secular forces became a war between the butcher Assad and his Iranian and Russian backers and the forces of radical Islam. The Free Syrians were refused any aid by Obama. Even Hillary, as well as Obama's own Sec. of Defense, strongly advocated a policy of helping the moderates.
Just more of the Obama legacy. One failure and mistake after another throughout the Middle East from Libya to Iran.
As Iran, Hezbullah, and Russia unloaded billions in weaponry, intervened with forces on the ground, and now massive air strikes, Obama withdrew the US as a player.
What began as a rebellion by secular forces became a war between the butcher Assad and his Iranian and Russian backers and the forces of radical Islam. The Free Syrians were refused any aid by Obama. Even Hillary, as well as Obama's own Sec. of Defense, strongly advocated a policy of helping the moderates.
Just more of the Obama legacy. One failure and mistake after another throughout the Middle East from Libya to Iran.
8
The standing of the US around the world has exponentially risen around the world since Barack Obama took office - that is the result of intelligent, improved policies. He also received the Nobel Prize - an honor that never goes to Republicans, and we don't wonder why. Seeing as GOP commenters are constantly telling lies about the "Obama legacy" - here's a fact for you - he is still in the Oval Office and won't have a "legacy" until he leaves office. He's still in power, and we are the better for it - try chewing on some facts for a change.
When the US was bombing and droning there were a lot of pictures of dead children, etc. But when the Russians are doing it we don't see these gruesome pictures. Why?
7
So, essentially any country that is an ally to Russia is off limits to the UN's intervention, by their security forces? Essentually meaning , any intervention of the UN security forces could start WWIII? I understand that Syria, or Russia, is not party of the UN's International compact~Meaning they did not sign onto it, or adopt it. So, I'm confused how USA became involved in the Syrian conflict to begin with. I remember the Syrian people claiming that Assad was using chemical weapons, on his own people. This is when Obama said the US would intervene. I know we tried to help the Syrian people protect themselves against such chemical weapons attacks, and I believe we began trying to train and equipt the resistance forces. Only to have them run away at first conflicts. Did USA not get the UN's approval for such initial interference? Now, Russia comes in and fights against the Assad resistance. Does the UN not feel Russia's involvement as committing atrocities against civilians, of any further concern, or warrant the international intervention of security forces? Especially since they've declared themselves as the new world order's one world government. Or, are they intentionally doing nothing, because they want this part of the world cleared out, for easier 'control' of it's natural resources? Such as in their 'global decolonization' initiatives~Whereby, Russia can be blamed, yet without recourse of the UN, for the continued, and additional refugee crisis! THIS IS INTENTIONAL!
Before Putin can come to Europe's rescue and ''solve'' the invasoin waves of extraneous humanity migrating northward, he has to really make them worse for a while so there will be no opposition the next time he shows up demanding Europe let loose all the cash tied up in the sanctions put in place after he invaded Crimea and Ukraine.
5
During the battle of Stalingrad ( August 23, 1942 – February 2, 1943), a German Wehrmacht officer wrote in his diary "Russians fight like gangsters." As we know, Germans lost and Russians won the battle. As far as battle strategy, nothing has changed since then.
6
I've read that the CIA were first into Syria aiding and training rebels to topple Assad, now it looks like, or its being made to look like the Russians are responsible for the whole migration. And, the world should be ashamed sending refugees into austerity ridden Greece. They don't have enough troubles with their economy. If it were the Titanic women and children would be thrown overboard for the moneyed passengers to grab their spot on the lifeboats. We should get out of the business of toppling governments. If any humanitarian work needs being done Africa has been the basket case of the world for centuries; but those dictators are the front men for the resources the industrial world needs.
16
Unfortunately the mainstream media globally including the NYTimes is partially to blame here for making the narrative Israel versus the Arab world. The real problem killing most Arabs and Muslims is the Sunni-Shiite civil war, and now Russia, Hezbollah and Iran. If you are Iran, Hezbollah and Russia why not stir up the Palestinian populace with the false narrative about the Temple Mount while you are committing atrocities and killing thousands to the civilians in Syria? Unfortunately the media and the NYTimes are quick to focus on Israel and are suckers for Russia, Iran and Hezbollah. Why does this continue to happen?
4
"Umm Suleiman, who is expecting her fifth child. "
Expecting a fifth child in the middle of a raging civil war explains why there are no good solutions for the problems of civilians in Syria (with or without a Russian offensive under way).
Expecting a fifth child in the middle of a raging civil war explains why there are no good solutions for the problems of civilians in Syria (with or without a Russian offensive under way).
25
This is so bogus. The actions of the USA, Qatar, SA in financing, organizing and weaponizing the terrorists is why the refugees went to Europe - 1 million and counting - The alphabet soup of terrorists are all the same - Al Qaeda yesterday an enemy - today General Petraeus wants as a Partner.
Russia got there "TWO weeks" ago. check the calendar. why not report the Qatar Pipeline as US motivation for Assad policy, which he wont allow transit thru his country?
Blair said last week Iraq was a mistake, McNamara said Vietnam was a mistake, Brennan said last week US treatment of Iran as an enemy was a mistake. Why not report on the mistakes?
Iraq is now a Partner of the Russians and Iran, so are the Kurds. why?
Why is the NYT pursuing a policy of a No Fly Zone for reporting the truth?
When will the NYT reporting cover the real reality on the ground?
Russia got there "TWO weeks" ago. check the calendar. why not report the Qatar Pipeline as US motivation for Assad policy, which he wont allow transit thru his country?
Blair said last week Iraq was a mistake, McNamara said Vietnam was a mistake, Brennan said last week US treatment of Iran as an enemy was a mistake. Why not report on the mistakes?
Iraq is now a Partner of the Russians and Iran, so are the Kurds. why?
Why is the NYT pursuing a policy of a No Fly Zone for reporting the truth?
When will the NYT reporting cover the real reality on the ground?
39
What in the world are we doing in Syria ? Let the Russians get the brunt of Muslim anger, they are welcome to it, but more important lets not add to the misery of the Syrian people.The Russians sooner than later will have to contend with ISIS, & they can match their brutality much better than we can.Where is Penelope Cruz & her bleeding heart husband, Chile, & the marchers in Europe, & the outrage in South America, & most of all where is the defender of the oppressed the UN.I guess it much easier to take out your animus on little Israel Who's only desire is to live in peace, then to stand up to the real tyrants of the Middle East ,Iran,Russia.& Assad.
8
'little Israel who's only desire is to live in peace .. '
Let's suppose you have a big house, may be a two-story house.
Suppose I come and occupy your second floor, with some powerful friends of mine guaranteeing that you can never throw me out, no matter what, and then generously declare that all I want to do is live in peace.
And you can keep your first floor space, where I might store some of my excess weapons or otherwise make use of from time to time, on an as-needed basis.
Not a bad deal at all considering that I did not take over the whole house.
Would you accept that let me live in peace? If your answer is 'certainly, of course yes, absolutely, why not', then I can see your point.
Let's suppose you have a big house, may be a two-story house.
Suppose I come and occupy your second floor, with some powerful friends of mine guaranteeing that you can never throw me out, no matter what, and then generously declare that all I want to do is live in peace.
And you can keep your first floor space, where I might store some of my excess weapons or otherwise make use of from time to time, on an as-needed basis.
Not a bad deal at all considering that I did not take over the whole house.
Would you accept that let me live in peace? If your answer is 'certainly, of course yes, absolutely, why not', then I can see your point.
If America had no tried to overthrow Assad from the beginning the Syrian refugee crisis would not be nothing. But America stupidly got involved and they have caused the biggest refugee crisis since WW2. I am actually supporting Russia move into strengthening the govt at hand.
27
At least the Russians obey international law with their shenanigans in Syria. We spent half a billion dollars arming 4-5 guys who promptly gave their guns to the other side. We and our media are complicit in the Syrian & European refugee crises, and the comments show that many Americans are not buying the mass media hype anymore, NYT - I hope you're paying attention.
55
Sometimes I wonder whether NYT articles on foreign affairs originate in the CIA, or at least the US State Department. It takes a certain level of chutzpah to claim that Russia's intervention in Syria is what's stirring up violence, after the United States, through its Saudi, Turkish, and UAE fronts, pumped the country full of weapons. Those TOW missiles the rebels are using to such spectacular effect, guess where they came from?
Let's also not forget which country ultimately started this Middle Eastern conflagration. Tony Blair recently admitted that the US/UK adventure in Iraq ushered in ISIS. Let's give credit where it is due please and stop these ridiculous news articles that disregard the last 12 years of history.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-34630380
Let's also not forget which country ultimately started this Middle Eastern conflagration. Tony Blair recently admitted that the US/UK adventure in Iraq ushered in ISIS. Let's give credit where it is due please and stop these ridiculous news articles that disregard the last 12 years of history.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-34630380
65
If we are concerned about Russia's role in Syria and beyond perhaps we actually do something about it vs. play lip service? What do they care about most: oil prices, internal control of population, control over their former/current satellites, continued corruption and theft of their resources
What to do that would really put a dent in their stride:
1. Flood the market with oil (i.e. lift the oil export ban from US)
2. Start using their internet troll tactics to change the propaganda on their media outlets
3. Increase funding to media outlets to penetrate their propaganda machine (voice of america, etc.)
4. Increase people on Magnitsky list
5. Put on sanction list all oil exploration equipment, pipeline, etc. that they use in their fields
6. Include in sanctions agro-equipment to weaken their production capacity
7. Push China to increase further their presence in Russia's far east and central asian countries
In short, what they need is a multi-pronged attack that mixes in embarrassment of the core inner circle, weakness at home, and reduction of their economic capacity. Putin might seem like he is rising but in the end he sits on top of a pyramid full of corruption and mass deception that is 100% fueled by oil and gas revenues. Decrease his revenue, increase his costs and this will not last 2 years.
What to do that would really put a dent in their stride:
1. Flood the market with oil (i.e. lift the oil export ban from US)
2. Start using their internet troll tactics to change the propaganda on their media outlets
3. Increase funding to media outlets to penetrate their propaganda machine (voice of america, etc.)
4. Increase people on Magnitsky list
5. Put on sanction list all oil exploration equipment, pipeline, etc. that they use in their fields
6. Include in sanctions agro-equipment to weaken their production capacity
7. Push China to increase further their presence in Russia's far east and central asian countries
In short, what they need is a multi-pronged attack that mixes in embarrassment of the core inner circle, weakness at home, and reduction of their economic capacity. Putin might seem like he is rising but in the end he sits on top of a pyramid full of corruption and mass deception that is 100% fueled by oil and gas revenues. Decrease his revenue, increase his costs and this will not last 2 years.
4
I know that the oil company bosses would be beside themselves with joy to send our US oil overseas, to get rid of the ban, to force us to compete for our natural resources against places that are paying seven bucks a gallon now--or wherever they could gouge the deepest. And they'd hope, of course, to keep the subsidies and tax breaks and rebates they now enjoy at our expense while they do it. Of course they want that. But it would be a rotten deal for the people of America. We will oppose that, no matter the spurious rationales, of which we do expect to hear many.
One of the problems with this war is who should we root for. Not since Vlad the Impaler battled the Ottoman Turks has there been a conflict so difficult to choose side. Also, I don't recall a more cowardly group of refugees than this bunch. There seems to be no shortage of healthy young men. Obama has promised them weapons, training, and air support. Enlist and fight back.
10
At least Vlad the Impaler had a bit of style about him.
So Russia creates the refugee problem and Obama will take in the refugees? Why doesn't Obama and his amazing foreign policy team get nations in the Middle East to take in the refugees? Maybe Obama needs to draw another Red Line in Syria. Maybe Obama needs Hillary to push another Reset button with Russia. Maybe Obama can send in the varsity to deal with the ISIS JV team.
11
When are these absurd attempts to turn truth on its head going to stop? Only when the audience can plainly see that the Emperor is naked. The chaos, destruction, and ultimate flight of much of the population of the Middle East is quite clearly the outcome of the policies of the USraeli Empire. That includes using the various jihadist fanatics as proxies to control the resources of this resource-rich region. Only an informed and aroused public can put a stop to the carnage - that, and the timely intervention of the Russian forces, along with those of Iran, Iraq and Hezbollah.
40
It is pretty hard for any American media to stand on moral high ground given that
1. Our invasion of Iraq caused the rise of ISIS
2. Our support of Syria rebels elongated the crisis
Don't pin it on Russia. It is on us, on the United States of America.
1. Our invasion of Iraq caused the rise of ISIS
2. Our support of Syria rebels elongated the crisis
Don't pin it on Russia. It is on us, on the United States of America.
71
No, not "us"! It was not the fault of every American; it was the fault of the deep-thinkers who reelected Bush/Cheney and their sycophants. Don't place the blame on folks who tried their best to prevent our insane, futile involvement in this cesspool, the Middle East.
"It is on us, on the United States of America."
No, it's not on"us"; it's the fault of George Bush and Dick Cheney. Most Americans saw the grave mistake of the US military's meddling and nation-building in the Middle East.
No, it's not on"us"; it's the fault of George Bush and Dick Cheney. Most Americans saw the grave mistake of the US military's meddling and nation-building in the Middle East.
Trying to shuffle off the blame for Syrian refugees to Russia? No doubt, they are responsible for a small fraction of the displaced people since they began operations. But this sort of narrative obscures the fact that the US and its allies are actually more blameworthy in this respect. Wikileaks cables show that the US and its allies were plotting to destabilize Syria by fomenting sectarianism since at least 2006! https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/06DAMASCUS5399_a.html
52
Given the very busy role of Washington in the Middle East as expressed through invasion, air strikes and arming any rebel it can find -- and US journalism's role as a quasi-state media in trumpeting the same through uncritical scaremongering and jingoism -- it's a bit rich now to read this latest clucking about how the Russians are the true menace.
Really, who is this neo-Cold War drumbeating supposed to impress? It's Big Bad Russia day in and day out at the Times. Judging from the comments here, I'm not the only reader weary of this oversimplification -- or of its intellectual dishonesty.
Really, who is this neo-Cold War drumbeating supposed to impress? It's Big Bad Russia day in and day out at the Times. Judging from the comments here, I'm not the only reader weary of this oversimplification -- or of its intellectual dishonesty.
64
Nothing resembling normal civilian life can persist in modern war zones, so everywhere the war goes gets depopulated.
7
We are somewhere between W's "mission accomplished" and Laurel and Hardy's "that's a nice mess you’ve gotten me into." Would anybody not condemn Carter’s Brzezinski’s arming the Afghans who became Al Qaeda now ISIS? I think we are closer to Laurel and Hardy’s sentiment. The US has no moral authority to say anything to anybody.
42
No, actually, Zbig and the Prez did it right. The Soviets suffered a ridiculous defeat AND blew though so much money and human capital that -
1. They went the rest of the way broke, and
2. The Russian civilians decided they they's had enough of big-government socialism.
Protip: When someone attacks you with airliners full of petroleum products, it never mattered if yyou gave then man-portable weapons to fire at Slavs.
The world has 70 million Kalashnikov rifles and all the criminals & terrorists will get plenty, no matter what Westerners think.
1. They went the rest of the way broke, and
2. The Russian civilians decided they they's had enough of big-government socialism.
Protip: When someone attacks you with airliners full of petroleum products, it never mattered if yyou gave then man-portable weapons to fire at Slavs.
The world has 70 million Kalashnikov rifles and all the criminals & terrorists will get plenty, no matter what Westerners think.
2
Russia's "role" in razing villages and towns in Syria?
What about Barack Obama's role?
Remember him?
Who drew the red line in Syria, dared Assad to kill Syrians and told political opponents of Assad that he had their backs?
Who sat by and did nothing as Assad killed Syrians?
Who taunted ISIS as a JV team, freed top terror leaders who are now ISIS leaders and did nothing as ISIS spread across the Middle East?
Obama.
Putin isn't in Syria to redecorate, he's there to wage war against ISIS. War isn't pretty. The NYT is allowing the Obama WH to use a major American newspaper as a propaganda machine.
What about Barack Obama's role?
Remember him?
Who drew the red line in Syria, dared Assad to kill Syrians and told political opponents of Assad that he had their backs?
Who sat by and did nothing as Assad killed Syrians?
Who taunted ISIS as a JV team, freed top terror leaders who are now ISIS leaders and did nothing as ISIS spread across the Middle East?
Obama.
Putin isn't in Syria to redecorate, he's there to wage war against ISIS. War isn't pretty. The NYT is allowing the Obama WH to use a major American newspaper as a propaganda machine.
61
If Putin is in Syria to wage war against ISIS, he must be a bit confused. ISIS is not in the Northeastern areas this article discusses.
3
You choose your battle ground, and fight there. you win. Then you choose another and fight there. And so on, until they corral ISIS and destroy them. You do not open fire everywhere and hope for the best, that's not how to win a war.
Russia knows this, this is why they are fighting at the front line. They could win, if we stopped supplying alQueda.
Russia knows this, this is why they are fighting at the front line. They could win, if we stopped supplying alQueda.
America can't decide with is Cooler, Obama standing by while Syria ia absorbed by Putin or Obama standing by while ISIS alaughtered a quarter-million unarmed Syrians.
Oh, I know - Obama actually helping Iran introducing its own nuclear missile forces to the Middle East and (soon enough) the eastern coast of North America.
Oh, I know - Obama actually helping Iran introducing its own nuclear missile forces to the Middle East and (soon enough) the eastern coast of North America.
3
Since a pre-civil war population of 21 million about 7 million Syrians have been internally displaced, about 4 million Syrians are refugees, about 300,000 Syrians have been killed and a million Syrians have been wounded or injured. Put in an American context would require multiplying those human casualty numbers by 15x.
A country like Slovenia with a population of 2 million was recently faced with 5000 refugees at one time, 12,500 refugees in a 24 hour period and 60,000 refugees in a ten day period. Put in an American context would require multiplication by 160x.
Most of the current refugees are from Iraq, Syria and Afghanistan.
A country like Slovenia with a population of 2 million was recently faced with 5000 refugees at one time, 12,500 refugees in a 24 hour period and 60,000 refugees in a ten day period. Put in an American context would require multiplication by 160x.
Most of the current refugees are from Iraq, Syria and Afghanistan.
6
The article is deliberately vague on the "violence" opting for the human interest, "those poor people" dinner party narrative. Why? Because the "violence" is from ISIS, the JV team Barack Obama's incompetence and get out of GITMO free program have turned into a formidable foe.
So much easier to impress your friends by showing concern for the Syrian refugees while looking smart and informed than to have the conversation about Obama, the Arab Spring and how we got here.
So much easier to impress your friends by showing concern for the Syrian refugees while looking smart and informed than to have the conversation about Obama, the Arab Spring and how we got here.
18
Actually ISIS leadership is primarily made up of the former Iraqui Baath Party members GW and crew made no effort to incorporate into the post Saddam Iraq.
So much easier to blame the current President when the blatant mistakes of the former are impossible to explain.
So much easier to blame the current President when the blatant mistakes of the former are impossible to explain.
7
Actually, the violence is primarily in rebel held areas in the Western parts of Syria. Iran/Assad/Russia have launched a massive offensive (I believe in Hama province) and that offensive has been the cause of much the new violence. Russia airstrikes, which are constant and almost entirely not against ISIS have also exacerbated the suffering. ISIS did stage an offensive near Aleppo, however. As a barrister, I would have though that you would have done your due diligence...
2
'Iran/Assad/Russia have launched a massive offensive and that offensive has been the cause of much the new violence. '
What a surprise. Bombs, and war causing violence; you don't say?!
What a surprise. Bombs, and war causing violence; you don't say?!
I wonder why the refugees from those villages aren't traveling to southern Russia through the Caucasus, which as an equivalent distance to Greece?
19
Do you really have to ask?
In Russia, they would be forced to register, and seek asylum. Then maybe work for their bread.
In Western Europe, they do not have to do any of that. simply show up and you get free house, food and money.
Now, how is it unclear why they are going to Germany instead of Russia?
In Russia, they would be forced to register, and seek asylum. Then maybe work for their bread.
In Western Europe, they do not have to do any of that. simply show up and you get free house, food and money.
Now, how is it unclear why they are going to Germany instead of Russia?
Calling Ter Ma’aleha a 'village' further minimizes the atrocity that is Syria. Ter Ma’aleh has a population of 39,000, similar in size to Monroe, NY. Calling it a village makes it sound like grass huts and peasants. It takes a lot of villages to result in 1/4 million deaths and millions displaced. The headline and the press do the Syrian misery a disservice through use of minimizing terms to make us feel better.
5
Today in a morning "town meeting" with Matt Lauer and Trump, Donald stated without hesitation that he would send all Syrian refugees out of the U.S. and stated that maybe they were a "trojan horse". What kind of nuts are running for president and doing well in the polls? And now the NYT wants to pin this problem on Russia? Do the authors even read the NYT? If so, they would see that this was started during the Bush years and continues today, not because of the Russians, but because of the good 'ol U.S.A. Some country we have here folks.
20
The Syrian upheaval was started by internal groups who were following Egypt`s lead. True, thinking the U.S.A would come into help.
Obama gave his `red line` ultimatum and not such a suprize the Russians sent a flotilla of 5 Navy ships towards Syria thus nullifying Obama`s bravado. Still blame Rice and Powers for that over step.
Bush junior and Cheney did a lot of things wrong but the Syryian disaster is not around their neck. Was not the second go into Iraq enough.
Obama gave his `red line` ultimatum and not such a suprize the Russians sent a flotilla of 5 Navy ships towards Syria thus nullifying Obama`s bravado. Still blame Rice and Powers for that over step.
Bush junior and Cheney did a lot of things wrong but the Syryian disaster is not around their neck. Was not the second go into Iraq enough.
1
Syria has been ripped apart these several years by wildly violent sectarian insurgents supported by outside sources, by other countries, bent on ruining millions of Syrians and destroying the government of Syria. Russia for a short while has been trying to protect Syrians who were under attack and rescue the government by attacking the wildly violent insurgents.
The problem is the wildly violent sectarian insurgents who must finally be stopped from laying waste to Syria.
The problem is the wildly violent sectarian insurgents who must finally be stopped from laying waste to Syria.
45
So, Nancy in Great Neck, there is no problem with an oppressive regime like those of the Assads? You seem to conveniently forget that this conflict started with an uprising that was part of the Arab spring - an attempt by ordinary citizens to overthrow oppression (kinda like the American Revolution of which we are so proud). Your comment would be loved by Putin, Assad et al, i.e., that the problem is some insurgents disturbing this lovely country ruled by this beloved ruler who cared for his people. Bunk!
When I was in Syria in 1998, there were pictures of Mr. Assad's father all over the place - stamped repeatedly on outside walls (as if some giant had gone through with a large stamp pad and great enthusiasm); every shop had at least one picture on the wall - what folks do when they fear a dictator. To blame the insurgents is anathema, unless you think that folks should simply sit still under a cruel and oppressive dictator.
When I was in Syria in 1998, there were pictures of Mr. Assad's father all over the place - stamped repeatedly on outside walls (as if some giant had gone through with a large stamp pad and great enthusiasm); every shop had at least one picture on the wall - what folks do when they fear a dictator. To blame the insurgents is anathema, unless you think that folks should simply sit still under a cruel and oppressive dictator.
And they are mostly Sunni. It seems that the Sunni turn to violent extremism that most and the radical groups in Syria are all Sunni.
Watching CNN last night how decisions were made to bomb Iraq confirms what many knew from the beginning. President Bush at that time wanted to bomb Iraq no matter what lies it took to do so in March 2003. I knew then it was the slow opening of the "Pandoras Box". Since then the Middle East went up in flames. The only benefit from it is Israel doesn't have to worry about those countries right now and continue to built their illegal settlements in the West Bank and now the Golan Hights in Syria. Very clever indeed. Meanwhile Europe will have rode all with this crisis.
The Ultra-Mondo_Conservative "Gulf" states are't opening their doors to anyone. 1) Everyone in Syria, except, perhaps, those under the control of Iranian mullas or The Hezb-Allah, were, in terms of social and economic "freedom," light years ahead of the most "liberal" of gulf states.
2) Those gulf rulers would never chance welcoming tens of thousands of people who have surpassed the medieval-mindedness that is the cohesiveness of their small part of the world.
2) Those gulf rulers would never chance welcoming tens of thousands of people who have surpassed the medieval-mindedness that is the cohesiveness of their small part of the world.
11
Syria upheaval:
The Obama Legacy.
The Obama Legacy.
12
Middle east in shreds and hundreds of thousands of deaths (oh, and world-wide economic crash): the last republican president's legacy--I don't think republicans care to remember his name; hint: his brother has jettisoned that name for himself.
2
Europe can't afford to take everyone in, but, to be honest, they could stand to do worse than these Syrians. Before Saudi Arabia and America conspired to destroy Syria in the name of Islamic radicalism it was one of the most secular countries in the Arab world. Secularized peoples wanting to join secular Europe doesn't strike me as really all that problematic.
79
Unless you are a citizen-taxpayer within Europe, you have no say. If you are an American you belong to a country unable to deal with immigration except as a wedge issue to inflame or frighten voters. America did not conspire with anyone to "destroy" Syria. Your comment sounds like a Russian propaganda line.
1
So were the Algerians who came to France in the years before and after WW2. Unfortunately, things didn't turn out so well.
2
I was starting a Danube River cruise at the very beginning of this. I had never seen a mass migration before. These families, almost all with little kids, were simply trying to get to a place where they could survive and start over. Most of them spoke at least a little English. Most of them seemed to be of middle class origins, with much the same values as Americans and Europeans. And they were walking for hundreds, if not thousands, of miles in 95-degree heat, with just a small backpack each. They were and are desperately determined to get to a better place for their children's sakes. We would certainly do the same. Given a chance, I think they will be very good citizens wherever they settle.
really? I mean really? The refugees are Russia's fault now? The NYTimes has to stop acting like a tabloid issued by the White House. This war would not have lasted 4+ years, thereby leading to hundreds of thousands of refugees until Russia intervened, if the US, along with the Saudi, Qatari and Turkish Sunni crazies, had not decided to recruit, arm, train, organise and aid in every way the jihadi maniacs down there.
137
Why aren't Western nations forcing wealthy Arab states to open their doors to their brethren?
This is outrageous.
This is outrageous.
26
It's no coincidence that after Bush toppled Saddam that Egypt, Libya, Tunisia, and Syria followed in succession in ousting their "dictators". I don't believe for one minute that the US government had nothing to do with these overthrows and the following mayhem. Russia/Kremlin/Putin are just following our lead and the example that George, the Shrub, cast in concrete. Putin like the Shrub could care less. God protect us all from such criminals.
6
And how many of the current refugees are due to our own doing, in overthrowing Saddam, overthrowing Qaddaffi, and doing everything we could to destabilize Syria by sending arms and other support to the rebels?
Where were our media scolds when all this stuff was going on?
Yeah, but Russia's the culprit. Right.
Where were our media scolds when all this stuff was going on?
Yeah, but Russia's the culprit. Right.
99
And what has been the effect of the more than 7,000 US bombing runs since Obama announced his plans for airstrikes coordinated with training vetted rebels? This article complains about Russian airstrikes but makes no mention of American ones. Slanted.
106
Appalling tragedy. There is sufficient responsibility to go around. But let us not forgot what Russia gets out of this act of "fighting terrorism" :
1. Russian bombing, intervention, active support of Assad assures this corrupt regime ("Moscow's guy") will likely stay in power for a while
2. It puts Putin's Russia on the Middle East map… an influence, albeit highly destructive
3. It wipes out the Syrian opposition or significantly degrades their ability
4. It adds to Putin's narrative at home, flooding the state controlled media with glorious images of Russian power (all good things, no civilian casualties, all opponents of Assad are terrorists), and props up his support and squelches democratic opposition
5. It puts a finger in the eye of the US (and Europe)
and
6. It (maybe conscious Russian policy here?) fuels the refugee crisis in Syria, accomplishing a form of "opposition cleansing" and sending 1000's more refugees streaming toward Europe, destabilizing the EU unity, already fragile.
Will we wake up and realize how brazen Putin's policies are?
A "no fly" zone, with its attendant risks, MUST be put into place to protect the innocents. And Europe and the USA should not even contemplate reducing sanctions on Russia.
Putin knows one thing -- "hard ball" and we are playing nerfball instead.
USA policy in the Middle East has been tragically flawed and disastrous. The principle guilty culprits was the Bush Administration. We are now making it worse.
1. Russian bombing, intervention, active support of Assad assures this corrupt regime ("Moscow's guy") will likely stay in power for a while
2. It puts Putin's Russia on the Middle East map… an influence, albeit highly destructive
3. It wipes out the Syrian opposition or significantly degrades their ability
4. It adds to Putin's narrative at home, flooding the state controlled media with glorious images of Russian power (all good things, no civilian casualties, all opponents of Assad are terrorists), and props up his support and squelches democratic opposition
5. It puts a finger in the eye of the US (and Europe)
and
6. It (maybe conscious Russian policy here?) fuels the refugee crisis in Syria, accomplishing a form of "opposition cleansing" and sending 1000's more refugees streaming toward Europe, destabilizing the EU unity, already fragile.
Will we wake up and realize how brazen Putin's policies are?
A "no fly" zone, with its attendant risks, MUST be put into place to protect the innocents. And Europe and the USA should not even contemplate reducing sanctions on Russia.
Putin knows one thing -- "hard ball" and we are playing nerfball instead.
USA policy in the Middle East has been tragically flawed and disastrous. The principle guilty culprits was the Bush Administration. We are now making it worse.
5
I do not understand why we keep trying to blame Russia for problems created by the US, the UK, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Turkey and Israel. These nations have been funding, providing air support, and training rebels to overthrow the legitimate government of Syria. The US and UK want a pipeline through Syria so that Qatar and Saudi Arabia can sell gas to Europe and end Europe's dependency on Russia. The Turks just want another excuse to hammer the Kurds, and make sure they never acquire a state of their own, and Israel just wants the region busy killing each other so they leave it alone. This is so obvious a blind person could see it, but the western media refuses to write about it.... What has happened to Journalism? It is obvious, that the media has been influenced by money and power.... When is the last time a reporter got their information from the field rather than a government source? People are losing their rights every day as governments clamp down on opposing voices. If it was not for the internet we would be forced to accept what the governments of the world tell us. In any case, we can't stop now. The powers at be are also trying to restrict the message on the web and you read this. People need to stand up. If the media does not want to tell the truth, then we, the people, should boycott it, until it does.... For the future of humanity we need to stand up. If you want people like Bush and Blair making decisions for you, stay down otherwise get up and make a choice.....
113
Another Perspective, means another "progressive" NY Times reader who can rant for a lengthy paragraph on the Syrian conflict and not once mention the actions of the Assad regime that brought this on, and that has killed far more Syrian civilians with its barrel bombs and shelling of civilian areas than any of the rebel groups backed by the US.
But I guess part of the definition of a "progressive" today is to blame every Middle East problem on the US (and Israel), regardless of the facts...
But I guess part of the definition of a "progressive" today is to blame every Middle East problem on the US (and Israel), regardless of the facts...
4
In response to Another Perspective: " For the future of humanity we need to stand up. If you want people like Bush and Blair making decisions for you, stay down otherwise get up and make a choice....."
We did! And how has the past 7 years of the Obama Administration worked out for us???
We did! And how has the past 7 years of the Obama Administration worked out for us???
1
This is ridiculous. War is violence. Abhorring violence? Don't provoke wars. We are brimming with war mongers in this country who then freak out at the consequences or when somebody else is doing the killing.
Once the trouble is caused, one can not make an omelette without cracking eggs.
I am certain the migrant surge is caused by Merkel's invitation which the potential migrants now may fear will not stay on much longer. Also, they are trying to beat the winter. If I were a migrant, those would be the factors I would have in mind.
Once the trouble is caused, one can not make an omelette without cracking eggs.
I am certain the migrant surge is caused by Merkel's invitation which the potential migrants now may fear will not stay on much longer. Also, they are trying to beat the winter. If I were a migrant, those would be the factors I would have in mind.
42
As much disruption as possible in Syria, causing massive exodus of Syrians to the West, will certainly not hurt Mr. Putin's chances of simultaneously inflicting chaos on the West.
14
There's an enormous gap in understanding between the West and Middle East. Without even realizing it, the people of the West look at everything through secular colored glasses. Democracy, on a large scale, transcending ethic and religious associations, is only possible via secularism. Like it or not, societies that are not willing to embrace secularism are not ready for democracy. And you can't make them accept democracy by force.
What lies between the oppressive dictatorships of the Middle East and Democracy? Partition and self rule. One must be independent before becoming interdependent. Interdependence must be voluntary. Self rule is independence for a society. Secularism--democracy across ethnic and religious lines--represents interdependence and can only come about through trust and compromise.
The 15 million Sunni of Syria are not going to be ruled by the Shia any more. They will either die fighting or they will leave. The 5 million Shia of Syria will not relinquish control to a democracy because they will then be ruled over the Sunni which is unacceptable to them. The fear revenge and retribution--which they should fear.
Neither side is willing to be ruled by the other side. We are way past that. The only answer that's going to stop this war is partition and self rule. The Sunni must rule the Sunni and the Shia must rule the Shia. That is the only way the fighting will stop. We can call it 1 nation with 2 (or 3 or 4) states.
What lies between the oppressive dictatorships of the Middle East and Democracy? Partition and self rule. One must be independent before becoming interdependent. Interdependence must be voluntary. Self rule is independence for a society. Secularism--democracy across ethnic and religious lines--represents interdependence and can only come about through trust and compromise.
The 15 million Sunni of Syria are not going to be ruled by the Shia any more. They will either die fighting or they will leave. The 5 million Shia of Syria will not relinquish control to a democracy because they will then be ruled over the Sunni which is unacceptable to them. The fear revenge and retribution--which they should fear.
Neither side is willing to be ruled by the other side. We are way past that. The only answer that's going to stop this war is partition and self rule. The Sunni must rule the Sunni and the Shia must rule the Shia. That is the only way the fighting will stop. We can call it 1 nation with 2 (or 3 or 4) states.
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This may be the solution not just for the sunni and shia of syria, but the kurds and other iraqis. where does this go for Israel and Palestine, i (in favor of two state solution) have no idea.
Have you ever looked at American politics? A 200+ year old democracy has not not embraced secularism.
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Michael Collins - So after they flee to Europe and are granted "refugee" status will they be willing to be ruled by a secular government or will they insist on converting Europe to their way of life?
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Putin stirring the pot in Syria also helps him destabilize the European Union. The man is an international menace, a troublemaker par excellence where ever you look: the Arctic, the trans-atlantic cable infrastructure most lately, and, of course, Ukraine, Crimea etc. before that. Who knows what grander evil lurks behind those cold KGB eyes. It looks like it's up to the Russian people to say "nyet" to his adventurism. But I'm not holding my breath. The push-back, as usual, will ultimately be up to the good old US.
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You mean Putin armed isis and the rebels in syria? You know when there is no terrorists, there was no reason for assad to fight, therefore no reason to flee for the people.
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Your "good old U.S. has done more to destablize the world in the last years under Bush and Putin could do in a live time. Good old U.S. . . .really good one.
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''The push-back, as usual, will ultimately be up to the good old US.''
Wow really you are the perfect New War Times reader. It reads like the worst FOX ignorance. Yup and US problems are the fault of the coloreds, Sure we may have initiated the problems you mentioned, we might have killed 99 innocents in our 4 years of supplying terrorists (Syria) , regime change (Ukraine, Honduras) and destroying nations (Libya) and to 1 of theirs but yeah we are the good guys to the Russians bad guys.
Any more fairy tales you wish to believe??
Wow really you are the perfect New War Times reader. It reads like the worst FOX ignorance. Yup and US problems are the fault of the coloreds, Sure we may have initiated the problems you mentioned, we might have killed 99 innocents in our 4 years of supplying terrorists (Syria) , regime change (Ukraine, Honduras) and destroying nations (Libya) and to 1 of theirs but yeah we are the good guys to the Russians bad guys.
Any more fairy tales you wish to believe??
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Another day, another slanted report.
The report hints at, and makes you believe that the refugee crisis is because Russia began bombing. That catastrophe has been occurring for months on end, it did not get started with Russia.
Greece has been overwhelmed since ever, especially since Germany said ‘y’all come in, ya hear?’.
The bombed villages look the same as the wedding parties we bombed, or the villages the US and Iraq are bombing and attacking in the name of getting ISIS.
‘Syrian medical groups and human rights workers have documented several Russian airstrikes that appeared to target hospitals’, get it, ‘appear’. When we did it in Afghanistan for an hour, it was not an appearance, it was premeditated, and sustained, but classified as a tragic mistake.
And front lines moving? Yes that is what happened in war, just look at Iraq, the refinery was retaken last week, front lines moved there; not a word about how we were creating a humanitarian crisis, but I bet those people in the firing line ran away, just like the people from Syria.
We cannot continue accusing others of actions we are doing, specially while they both are happening the same day.
The report hints at, and makes you believe that the refugee crisis is because Russia began bombing. That catastrophe has been occurring for months on end, it did not get started with Russia.
Greece has been overwhelmed since ever, especially since Germany said ‘y’all come in, ya hear?’.
The bombed villages look the same as the wedding parties we bombed, or the villages the US and Iraq are bombing and attacking in the name of getting ISIS.
‘Syrian medical groups and human rights workers have documented several Russian airstrikes that appeared to target hospitals’, get it, ‘appear’. When we did it in Afghanistan for an hour, it was not an appearance, it was premeditated, and sustained, but classified as a tragic mistake.
And front lines moving? Yes that is what happened in war, just look at Iraq, the refinery was retaken last week, front lines moved there; not a word about how we were creating a humanitarian crisis, but I bet those people in the firing line ran away, just like the people from Syria.
We cannot continue accusing others of actions we are doing, specially while they both are happening the same day.
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I did not read it as Russia started the crisis. More like Russia is causing a wider escalation of violence across the country. The NYTImes reported on the bombing of the Afghanistan hospital as an error on the part of the US Military. I do not know what you are referring to.
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"The bombed villages look the same as the wedding parties we bombed, or the villages the US and Iraq are bombing and attacking in the name of getting ISIS."
So what you are saying is that they look really bad.
So what you are saying is that they look really bad.
"Syria" as a post-colonial construct, created by and propped up by Europeans is finished. There is no way it can be put back together. Russian involvement is merely folly as they, as always, are merely looking out for their own interests, namely, the naval and air bases at Latakia.
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The U.S. empire has become not unakin to a neutered dog.
Assad is confirmed in bloody power and all opposing the Assad regime is bombed by Russia. And Russia realizes a 500 year dream by establishing a fleet at the warm water port of Latakia.
And what does the U.S. do? Hold a fireside chat with the Russians to ensure they do not at any particular moment occupy the same air space. And even fails at training and equipping rebel Syrians to fight Assad as what once was the nation state of Syria descends further into chaos and murder.
If all the U.S. is going to do is drop bombs on ISIS and the people in the communities controlled by ISIS, no one in the region can expect effective help from the U.S. The Brits in WW II and the North Vietnamese have proved that just dropping bombs is no way to win a war.
What is wrong with the declaration and enforcement of a no-fly zone over area occupied by anti-Assad rebels? And make clear to Assad and Russia that intrusion into the zone will result in their bombers being shot down?
Or will we watch the rebels be bombed into the dust by Russia?
Assad is confirmed in bloody power and all opposing the Assad regime is bombed by Russia. And Russia realizes a 500 year dream by establishing a fleet at the warm water port of Latakia.
And what does the U.S. do? Hold a fireside chat with the Russians to ensure they do not at any particular moment occupy the same air space. And even fails at training and equipping rebel Syrians to fight Assad as what once was the nation state of Syria descends further into chaos and murder.
If all the U.S. is going to do is drop bombs on ISIS and the people in the communities controlled by ISIS, no one in the region can expect effective help from the U.S. The Brits in WW II and the North Vietnamese have proved that just dropping bombs is no way to win a war.
What is wrong with the declaration and enforcement of a no-fly zone over area occupied by anti-Assad rebels? And make clear to Assad and Russia that intrusion into the zone will result in their bombers being shot down?
Or will we watch the rebels be bombed into the dust by Russia?
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'Or will we watch the rebels be bombed into the dust by Russia?'
Hopefully. Since our friends the Rebels are affiliated with our arch nemesis, alQueda.
Except that 2 weeks ago, fighting alQueda was our mandate, and today we airdrop weapons to them.
Obama 2012 'change you can believe in', 2015 'Believe me we have changed'
Hopefully. Since our friends the Rebels are affiliated with our arch nemesis, alQueda.
Except that 2 weeks ago, fighting alQueda was our mandate, and today we airdrop weapons to them.
Obama 2012 'change you can believe in', 2015 'Believe me we have changed'
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Got kids? Buy 'em a plane ticket.
"The Brits in WW II and the North Vietnamese have proved that just dropping bombs is no way to win a war"
The Germans and Japanese might disagree with that, especially when the bombs are nuclear.
The Germans and Japanese might disagree with that, especially when the bombs are nuclear.
"Rise in Violence in Syria Displaces Tens of Thousand"
I am confused because last time I checked the violence in Syria in the past 2 years displaced half the country's population, that's 11 million. That same violence that was in part sponsored by tons and tons and tons of weapons supplied separately by Saudi Arabia, Turkey and the US to their respective moderate freedom loving, religion diversity respecting groups.
The same violence that killed 1/4 million people.
Now all of a sudden it matters. Now all of a sudden its not us its them. The Ruskies are responsible, they should be blamed also for the migrant crises hitting Europe, never mind that it started before their intervention.
Sometimes I feel I am in an alternate reality when I read news. Good thing is we elected Trudeau who is pulling us out of the region.
I am confused because last time I checked the violence in Syria in the past 2 years displaced half the country's population, that's 11 million. That same violence that was in part sponsored by tons and tons and tons of weapons supplied separately by Saudi Arabia, Turkey and the US to their respective moderate freedom loving, religion diversity respecting groups.
The same violence that killed 1/4 million people.
Now all of a sudden it matters. Now all of a sudden its not us its them. The Ruskies are responsible, they should be blamed also for the migrant crises hitting Europe, never mind that it started before their intervention.
Sometimes I feel I am in an alternate reality when I read news. Good thing is we elected Trudeau who is pulling us out of the region.
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You are so exactly right!
Reading the US media, or listening to American pundits and politicians, one feels the violence and displacement in Syria started just the other day.
The relative magnitude of US inflicted and initiated havoc on Iraq and its people, of course never makes it into the conversation, other than as a passing reference.
The neo-cons actually were right! What they did to Iraq did in fact become "a model" for the Middle East. And what a model it is!
Reading the US media, or listening to American pundits and politicians, one feels the violence and displacement in Syria started just the other day.
The relative magnitude of US inflicted and initiated havoc on Iraq and its people, of course never makes it into the conversation, other than as a passing reference.
The neo-cons actually were right! What they did to Iraq did in fact become "a model" for the Middle East. And what a model it is!
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You are reading the article with a biased view. It did not say or imply Russia was the main cause of the refugee crisis.
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Reading these comments NYT, nobody buys it. Its just that we're trapped like hornets in this bottle and can do nothing about it since no one actually listens to what the people think. Was it even possible to protest more than Nam, yet that cluster ...... kept on humming; even worse for it.
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President Carter already has proposed a way out.
The intervention in Iraq and the covert war in Syria were a colossal failure in terms of human rights for women and for religious freedom. NO Saudi Arabia cannot help with this problem.
It is time to put the interests of the Syrian people first and not our geopolitical objectives.
The intervention in Iraq and the covert war in Syria were a colossal failure in terms of human rights for women and for religious freedom. NO Saudi Arabia cannot help with this problem.
It is time to put the interests of the Syrian people first and not our geopolitical objectives.
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The article fails to mention that the majority of Syrian refugees were forced out because of the murderous brutality of ISIS, Al Qaeda and other terrorist groups supplied and funded by Saudi Arabia, Turkey and Qatar and ultimately backed by American armaments and money.
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Actually, every reputable source indicates that the vast majority of Syrian civilians are being killed by the barrel bombs and other assorted weapons of the Assad regime, and that this is what is responsible for the vast majority of Syrian refugees. It takes a "progressive" reader of the NY Times to twist facts around to blame everything on the US.
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Having encountered firsthand the tattered, rain-soaked and starving leading edge of this current wave of refugees on Lesbos in recent days, it is incomprehensible that it might grow in size and desperation, yet this report indicates that it will. Meanwhile, Jimmy Carter's proposal for a peace process, published in this newspaper in recent days as an editorial, may be the wisest way forward. It is imperative that the nations he addresses take up his challenge, and perhaps it is President Obama who must lead in this effort. Were any of those leaders to see what is happening on Lesbos—which itself is just a small part of the human tsunami that threatens to engulf Europe—it is hard to imagine that, possessing a human heart, they could resist the call to make peace.
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This doesn't bode well for Europe's thousand year migrant crisis, and rather than have to create and defend a safe zone for tens of thousands of people from multiple warring parties, it sure would be right if the Gulf States opened their doors.
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Most Syrians including the Sunnis are accustomed to living in a secular state where women had rights, could drive, etc., they don't want to live in theocratic Gulf States.
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I'm not saying it should be a permanent solution, but there need to be more solutions on the table than just what Turkey and the EU can offer.
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