How is the mom´s depression different from other diseases, say alcoholism or cancer? If mom was drinking herself to death or had cancer but said nothing can be done about it would you do nothing but listen?
Or would you seek help? If mom refused (a symptom of depression is believing nothing can help it,) would you ask family to help her get help?
Maybe the daughter did recognize the depression, sought help but it didn't work. Or she didn't recognize the depression or see it as an illness, don't feel guilty for a common misperception. But her family might wonder why she didn't seek their or professional help, best not to tell them now.
If people present health problems (depression isn't the only one that affects thinking,) Kwame, please, run it by a professional before implying it's fine to just listen and not seek help.
Or would you seek help? If mom refused (a symptom of depression is believing nothing can help it,) would you ask family to help her get help?
Maybe the daughter did recognize the depression, sought help but it didn't work. Or she didn't recognize the depression or see it as an illness, don't feel guilty for a common misperception. But her family might wonder why she didn't seek their or professional help, best not to tell them now.
If people present health problems (depression isn't the only one that affects thinking,) Kwame, please, run it by a professional before implying it's fine to just listen and not seek help.
1
I would recommend to the daughter who thinks her mother committed suicide that she be very cautious about telling anyone what she thinks. I would suggest that she has no way of knowing if her mother did what they discussed or if her coma was the result of natural causes unless of course there was an autopsy. People say lots of things that the don't intend to do and without proof of a suicide the "disclosure" could have broader repercussions than just some uncomfortable and unhappy relatives.
8
I'm wondering if Mr. Appiah could address the issue of the apparently fluid boundary between a discussion of ethics and advice-giving. It's interesting to me that in these comments, over time, there was a criticism that the Ethics column had become an advice column. The truth is, it still is. It's basic premise is that someone writes in asking advice on how to handle a situation, couching it in ethical terms. Mr. Appiah considers these questions, rather than jumping in immediately to solve them, but they are still advice-asking questions, on the whole, which involve the anxieties of the writers. What I find remarkable is that the comments are, and always have been, advice-giving. What's up with that?
5
Kwame, I think your advice may be totally correct, or it may also be way off base. I don't think we know enough about the case to make any type of judgement. I was a Marine for 26 year and commanded a couple of companies in combat. Based on my experience, and what I have been reading about PTSD I am not at all convinced that it is necessary for soldiers to have been involved in horrendous fire fights in order to experience tremendous stress, anxiety, disrepair and depression upon returning home. I think it entirely plausible that he MIGHT have experienced guilt over things he did or did not do and witnessed or heard about while deployed. This, in my mind, unnecessary war has caused hundreds of thousands of death, horrendous destruction and continuous to inflict unnecessary suffering on millions of people. I think one could well become suicidal if one thought about all that a lot!
4
A daughter who "regularly argued" for the value of her mother's life might have considered the possibility that medical intervention could have been helpful, as others have suggested here. I'd have considered going beyond psychiatry, however, to the question of whether a hospice and palliative care consultation might have been helpful. As a hospice and palliative care physician myself, I often encounter this situation. I teach my colleagues to consider talk about suicide to be a "cry for help," even in the context of a serious illness. Finding out why a patient wants to hasten her death can lead to medical, social, and even spiritual solutions to relieve underlying root causes, which is why reasonable laws governing assisted suicide require such consultations. I am distressed that neither daughter or ethicist thought of palliative care as an option with Atul Gawande's magisterial book "Being Mortal" celebrating its 1st anniversary on the NYT Bestseller List last week. This mother with her "serious, irreparable heart condition" may even have qualified for and benefitted from hospice care, designed to support the terminally ill in finding ways to live meaningfully until they die. In addition I'd suggest the columnist's definition of euthanasia as "death chosen as a response to suffering" would deserve an "F" in any bioethics class.
3
To the first letter writer, you haven't spoken to your friend from the military in years, so how can you even know what spurned his suicide, let alone his act of murder? You really cannot, so if you wish to discuss the 'possibilities' of it with a counselor or even anonymously without referring to a specific case as you've done here, as someone else mentioned, all you have is what anyone outside of this man's head is in possession of, supposition based on a personal narrative of the person you are, not who he was.
I don't know your age, I am not yet elderly, but maybe old in the eyes that the very young use to view us. However, I can assure you that the older I become the less certain I am of the answers and have rather more questions, even to issues I once considered settled.
I don't know your age, I am not yet elderly, but maybe old in the eyes that the very young use to view us. However, I can assure you that the older I become the less certain I am of the answers and have rather more questions, even to issues I once considered settled.
3
Here's my story, which I tell because it may help you decide. My grandmother took an overdose of sleeping pills, killing herself, when I was about twelve. My mother's psychiatrist told her to tell me that my grandmother had had had a heart attack. I didn't believe my mother when she insisted on the heart attack but I did not know what else to think. Years later I found out, and she confessed, "Oh, Dr. B. said I should never tell you."
This kind of lying was in my considered opinion very harmful to me and to the family. It's better to tell the truth, I believe--but I'd say also it is better to tell it when people want to know it. If your sense is that they would really rather not know, then maybe it is best to say nothing. My hunch is that when they don't want to know, they already suspect the truth. http://www.thecriticalmom.blogspot.com
This kind of lying was in my considered opinion very harmful to me and to the family. It's better to tell the truth, I believe--but I'd say also it is better to tell it when people want to know it. If your sense is that they would really rather not know, then maybe it is best to say nothing. My hunch is that when they don't want to know, they already suspect the truth. http://www.thecriticalmom.blogspot.com
3
If my mother had suggested that she wanted to take her own life, I would have immediately flown down to see her and taken her to a doctor to see if she was clinically depressed and could have been treated for it. In fact, several years before her death, when many of her friends had moved away, I spotted depression in her and helped her get on antidepressants. If my mother hadn't been depressed and said she was stockpiling pills to take her own life, I would have alerted her care facility and had them find and destroy the pills, and seek out counseling to help her appreciate her life, diminished as it was. Perhaps the mother was only originally saying this to get a wake up call from the child every morning, and felt despair when the child seemed to think her suicide would be okay. I think the child should feel guilty for tacitly assenting to the mother's suicide, should have told the care facility about the pills when she went into the coma, and should keep the whole thing secret from the family. Live with the guilt.
3
She did try to talk her mother out of it over a period of time, so her mother knew she cared. Take a look at selfishness and guilt from another angle: betraying someone's trust, and insisting that someone else live with pain and mental deterioration that they clearly do not want to suffer so that *you* can have them around.
My father had dementia. As long as he was able to, he fought against deterioration and increasing restrictions on what he could do. When it came to diapers, he was so incensed that he refused to even discuss the idea. Of course, once he could no longer enforce his will, he was put into diapers. Most nursing homes simply do not have enough staff to avoid this. He was eventually moved into the locked wing because he started to wander down the street. Or in the halls, naked. This formerly proud, even prudish, man would have been horrified. Given foreknowledge and choice, he might have preferred an earlier death and avoid all this, which went on for about 4-5 months. We'll never know.
He was never depressed in his life until those last horrible months. If he had saved up pills and chosen suicide, what kind of selfish little busybody would I have been to say, "No, no, Dad, I'm telling the nurse, because you have to keep going no matter what"? Why? Because he had to learn to like it?
There are fates worse than death, and not everyone chooses the same.
My father had dementia. As long as he was able to, he fought against deterioration and increasing restrictions on what he could do. When it came to diapers, he was so incensed that he refused to even discuss the idea. Of course, once he could no longer enforce his will, he was put into diapers. Most nursing homes simply do not have enough staff to avoid this. He was eventually moved into the locked wing because he started to wander down the street. Or in the halls, naked. This formerly proud, even prudish, man would have been horrified. Given foreknowledge and choice, he might have preferred an earlier death and avoid all this, which went on for about 4-5 months. We'll never know.
He was never depressed in his life until those last horrible months. If he had saved up pills and chosen suicide, what kind of selfish little busybody would I have been to say, "No, no, Dad, I'm telling the nurse, because you have to keep going no matter what"? Why? Because he had to learn to like it?
There are fates worse than death, and not everyone chooses the same.
33
Having had two best friends who commited suicide, I can really relate to this. It is a very personal decision that, if after talking to your friend, the friend still has made up his mind in a cold objective way, you should try to make as peaceful and easy as possible.
3
As a mental health practitioner, I hope to remind the writer of the military letter that reality is mostly a matter of perception. You appear to view the military experience of your deceased friend as insufficiently stressful to lead to the later strategy. But you don't know that, just as you will never know what was in his mind and heart when he took his life and his wife's. After all, if you had seen it coming, you would no doubt have taken steps to stop it. The seeds might have been planted decades earlier, or during service, or recenlty, or all of those. The public conversation is not likely to "move forward" toward true understanding of such a set of events, whether you contribute or not, because true understanding of the incident is impossible. This is a very sad aspect of grief, yet very common to all loss. We almost always feel the desire to understand better, because we would like some better sense of control in a chaotic world, and we almost never get what we want. I'm sorry for that, and for your loss. If you find any comfort in these words or in the empathy behind them, consider grief counseling. I'd do it myself if I were faced with such a set of events.
7
Leave it alone, in both cases. If your mother had wanted you to tell others, she would have given you instructions to do so. As for the serviceman....It's really none of your business. He killed his wife, did they have any children? Surely there are survivors. It would be up to them to set the record straight, not you.
7
I hope the soldier writing the first letter will consider counseling.
It is indeed very troubling to think that people whom we've served alongside, could be so deeply and negatively affected by events we have survived. After all, if it could happen to them, if their mental state was caused by these experiences... could it happen to us, too?
A former colleague of mine committed suicide after service overseas. It haunts me, not because I don't understand why, but because in some ways... I do.
In this case, the fact that it was a murder makes it doubly terrifying.
I don't blame the soldier for his or her take on their service together, but I think it would be good for him or her to speak to a counselor regarding how that could have been interpreted differently by a different person. Hopefully in doing that you can explore your own past and come to terms with your own survival in a positive way, and not let this get to you so much.
Just because he did it, doesn't mean you will. But defending that point endlessly on the Internet might not be the best way to deal with that internal conflict.
It is indeed very troubling to think that people whom we've served alongside, could be so deeply and negatively affected by events we have survived. After all, if it could happen to them, if their mental state was caused by these experiences... could it happen to us, too?
A former colleague of mine committed suicide after service overseas. It haunts me, not because I don't understand why, but because in some ways... I do.
In this case, the fact that it was a murder makes it doubly terrifying.
I don't blame the soldier for his or her take on their service together, but I think it would be good for him or her to speak to a counselor regarding how that could have been interpreted differently by a different person. Hopefully in doing that you can explore your own past and come to terms with your own survival in a positive way, and not let this get to you so much.
Just because he did it, doesn't mean you will. But defending that point endlessly on the Internet might not be the best way to deal with that internal conflict.
6
What does the soldier's question have to do with ethics? It seems 100% politics. What are the bounds of this column?
He hadn't seen his friend in years. There are no confidences or private information involved. Just because something is unknown or overlooked in the media does not mean an ethical issue.
Is it a betrayal of confidence to say he was never in combat action? Would that diminish his status as hero? Is this what really troubles the writer?
He doesn't say that. What he writes is uncertainty about whether his knowledge matters. Should his voice be heard..
How is this about ethics?
He hadn't seen his friend in years. There are no confidences or private information involved. Just because something is unknown or overlooked in the media does not mean an ethical issue.
Is it a betrayal of confidence to say he was never in combat action? Would that diminish his status as hero? Is this what really troubles the writer?
He doesn't say that. What he writes is uncertainty about whether his knowledge matters. Should his voice be heard..
How is this about ethics?
5
Regarding LW 1, how can one set the record straight when he doesn't know the why? What facts would he be speaking to regarding the murder-suicide?
6
Since the LW hadn't spoken to his friend in years, it's entirely plausible that during this time the friend developed some mental challenges, didn't seek out help for them, and at the ultimate point, exploded.
LW: You have a set of information about your friend, and you have the right to choose to share that information, or to not share it. What you choose to do with that information is up to you. Your opinions about what might have happened to your friend during the time you knew him, about whether the preparation for danger set him up to crack later on, are just that: opinions. You cannot know for certain what caused the end result - each of us lives every day with tiny little challenges that can build up over time, and as you said you hadn't spoken to him for years.
The media will make news out of this tragedy and will target their observers' ire to whatever point will sell more ad space. You can deliver your opinions as you choose, and people will choose to believe you, or not.
Again, you don't really know what happened. And probably you never will.
LW: You have a set of information about your friend, and you have the right to choose to share that information, or to not share it. What you choose to do with that information is up to you. Your opinions about what might have happened to your friend during the time you knew him, about whether the preparation for danger set him up to crack later on, are just that: opinions. You cannot know for certain what caused the end result - each of us lives every day with tiny little challenges that can build up over time, and as you said you hadn't spoken to him for years.
The media will make news out of this tragedy and will target their observers' ire to whatever point will sell more ad space. You can deliver your opinions as you choose, and people will choose to believe you, or not.
Again, you don't really know what happened. And probably you never will.
4
Thank you for returning to the One Ethicist format -- much appreciated by me and everyone I have talked to about the former Chatty Kathy columns.
11
The second writer has a very difficult dilemma. Even though I experienced something similar, I would not know the answer.
My cousin committed suicide by carbon monoxide poisoning when I was about 11. My parents told me the death was an accident. They did not take me to the funeral.
Later, when I found out his death was a suicide, it was very disorienting, changing my view of some of my family history in so many ways. I didn't necessarily blame my parents for lying, but I felt keenly that they did, indeed, lie.
Keeping such a lie forever would have been impossible. My cousin's parents helped found a local chapter of NAMI and talked about mental illness frequently.
And yet, how would I have been able to process this information at age 11? The truth was a burden for all.
My cousin committed suicide by carbon monoxide poisoning when I was about 11. My parents told me the death was an accident. They did not take me to the funeral.
Later, when I found out his death was a suicide, it was very disorienting, changing my view of some of my family history in so many ways. I didn't necessarily blame my parents for lying, but I felt keenly that they did, indeed, lie.
Keeping such a lie forever would have been impossible. My cousin's parents helped found a local chapter of NAMI and talked about mental illness frequently.
And yet, how would I have been able to process this information at age 11? The truth was a burden for all.
4
11-year olds are not dumb. It would have been better for you to have been told about the truth of your cousin's death, perhaps within a month or two of the event, in a quiet moment, when the dust had settled from what must have been a crisis in the family.
It is so awkward, which is why people avoid talking about suicide.
When I was 10, I found out that my own grandmother had died from suicide before my birth. Prior to that I had been told about what a wonderful person she had been,been conscious of how much my mother missed her,and later had been given a vague answer about liver disease. Perhaps she did have liver disease, who knows? It was at a eye appointment that my mother was giving my family history to a nurse, when I heard her pronounce the word "suicide." When I confronted Mom that night on not telling me earlier and asked how, and received the news that the woman had shot herself, it was a very heavy moment. It also relieved me. I now understood the atmosphere of anguish that my mother and others around her expressed,even when they didn't realize they were doing it.
It did not convey that the action my grandmother had taken was ok,nor were there any excuses,and life had moved on in the months and years following her death. I had a step-grandmother whom I loved.It took decades for me to understand fully why my grandmother had died,but I am confident that had she lived in another era,she might have lived to the limits of her own natural life and not have died at 48.
It is so awkward, which is why people avoid talking about suicide.
When I was 10, I found out that my own grandmother had died from suicide before my birth. Prior to that I had been told about what a wonderful person she had been,been conscious of how much my mother missed her,and later had been given a vague answer about liver disease. Perhaps she did have liver disease, who knows? It was at a eye appointment that my mother was giving my family history to a nurse, when I heard her pronounce the word "suicide." When I confronted Mom that night on not telling me earlier and asked how, and received the news that the woman had shot herself, it was a very heavy moment. It also relieved me. I now understood the atmosphere of anguish that my mother and others around her expressed,even when they didn't realize they were doing it.
It did not convey that the action my grandmother had taken was ok,nor were there any excuses,and life had moved on in the months and years following her death. I had a step-grandmother whom I loved.It took decades for me to understand fully why my grandmother had died,but I am confident that had she lived in another era,she might have lived to the limits of her own natural life and not have died at 48.
1
From Lacan via Zizek, "the letter always arrives at it's destination." So, particularly in the second case, the information, which can be thought of as a parcel of data, is already in existence. Even if it is not talked about, that data is functional in the family's cosmos, and traveling forward in time. By speaking about it that information is brought into focus, becomes a conscious presence and it's nature altered by observation.
If we can learn anything form the lions of depth psychology (Freud, Jung, etc.) it is that what is repressed, unspoken, held in shadow still has immanence. If we bring forward these raw bits of psychic matter, these "letters" will be delivered with dignity, in a context graced with perspective. If we do not bring the information forward, it will be delivered but via conduits lacking conscious perspectives.
The historical incident cannot be removed, but the psychic form it takes on can be shaped through process of delivery. There is no horrible singular Truth, only polyvalent stories that may become tales of multidimensional courage.
If we can learn anything form the lions of depth psychology (Freud, Jung, etc.) it is that what is repressed, unspoken, held in shadow still has immanence. If we bring forward these raw bits of psychic matter, these "letters" will be delivered with dignity, in a context graced with perspective. If we do not bring the information forward, it will be delivered but via conduits lacking conscious perspectives.
The historical incident cannot be removed, but the psychic form it takes on can be shaped through process of delivery. There is no horrible singular Truth, only polyvalent stories that may become tales of multidimensional courage.
1
smokepainter, this comment helps me quite a bit. It may do more work than some of the others here that tried to communicate something similar (including my own), or at least it did for me. Much appreciated.
My 20 year old schizophrenic son killed himself when he was twenty
after 3 years of unremitted suffering with constant voices tormenting him, despite his best efforts to get well.
In our travels through Ontario's mental system, he knew that he could not go on with only the current, unscientific social assumptions he was being offered. HIs suicide could have justifiably been attributed to hopelessness,
We need to show victims of serious mental illness that we are also looking for cures using scientific methodology. That's how other serious chronic illnesses have been ameliorated--even cured. Yet our medicine decision makers ignore this approach and still cling to talk therapy as the solution for ridding society of these cruel brain diseases.
after 3 years of unremitted suffering with constant voices tormenting him, despite his best efforts to get well.
In our travels through Ontario's mental system, he knew that he could not go on with only the current, unscientific social assumptions he was being offered. HIs suicide could have justifiably been attributed to hopelessness,
We need to show victims of serious mental illness that we are also looking for cures using scientific methodology. That's how other serious chronic illnesses have been ameliorated--even cured. Yet our medicine decision makers ignore this approach and still cling to talk therapy as the solution for ridding society of these cruel brain diseases.
3
Very sorry for your loss. Please do avail yourself of the very best "science" regarding schizophrenia and its treatment. A good start is a recent report in this very newspaper:
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/20/health/talk-therapy-found-to-ease-schi...
Then please visit the website of Mad in America to find much more in-depth discussion about this latest landmark study. Schizophrenia outcomes have long been much better in countries where drugs are never or rarely used.
http://www.madinamerica.com
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/20/health/talk-therapy-found-to-ease-schi...
Then please visit the website of Mad in America to find much more in-depth discussion about this latest landmark study. Schizophrenia outcomes have long been much better in countries where drugs are never or rarely used.
http://www.madinamerica.com
1
The new ethicist is a huge improvement.
I've worked in suicide prevention for many years, and note that many military veterans who suicide never saw combat - in fact many never even deployed. We don't know why those in the military or who served previously are taking their own lives.
I've worked in suicide prevention for many years, and note that many military veterans who suicide never saw combat - in fact many never even deployed. We don't know why those in the military or who served previously are taking their own lives.
8
I completely agree with The Ethicist's response to the second letter.
But I would also encourage anyone in a similar situation to have a frank discussion with loved ones about the issue of the quality of life.
So many times we have far too many medical professional and family members who act cruelly towards those who are suffering from terminal illnesses and medical conditions by filling these poor souls with doubt. guilt and insane religious dogma about their decision to end a life that has become intolerable.
The lesson our letter writer needs to impart on the grandson and step=granddaughter one simple fact of life.
Which is that an end life decision is your choice and your choice alone because no one has the magical ability to step inside your body to feel your pain, your suffering and your hopelessness.
But I would also encourage anyone in a similar situation to have a frank discussion with loved ones about the issue of the quality of life.
So many times we have far too many medical professional and family members who act cruelly towards those who are suffering from terminal illnesses and medical conditions by filling these poor souls with doubt. guilt and insane religious dogma about their decision to end a life that has become intolerable.
The lesson our letter writer needs to impart on the grandson and step=granddaughter one simple fact of life.
Which is that an end life decision is your choice and your choice alone because no one has the magical ability to step inside your body to feel your pain, your suffering and your hopelessness.
15
Before I make a critical comment, let me say that I very much appreciate Kwame Anthony Appiah as the Ethicist, along with the magazine's return to one voice for the column. Looking forward to what I hope are many years of careful consideration of ethical questions from readers.
This daughter of the woman who committed suicide did not ask about the ethics of pressuring her mother to stay alive--that regular arguing for "the value of her life"--despite her suffering and anguish. Nor did she ask if she has any ethical obligation to consider and air, with her family and others, the dignity, agency, and human rights of those who choose to take their own lives due to their unwillingness to suffer more and more.
Still, those issues deserve at least a mention in an ethics column devoted to the family of a suffering person's suicide. We need open discussions of the ethics--and let's just say it: the selfishness--of pressuring a suffering person to prioritize others' feelings and needs. That discussion includes the contention, much too often accepted at face value, that depressed and suffering people should not have the capability, the agency, to make the decision to end their lives.
Let's hope that Professor Appiah will address these issues in the future.
This daughter of the woman who committed suicide did not ask about the ethics of pressuring her mother to stay alive--that regular arguing for "the value of her life"--despite her suffering and anguish. Nor did she ask if she has any ethical obligation to consider and air, with her family and others, the dignity, agency, and human rights of those who choose to take their own lives due to their unwillingness to suffer more and more.
Still, those issues deserve at least a mention in an ethics column devoted to the family of a suffering person's suicide. We need open discussions of the ethics--and let's just say it: the selfishness--of pressuring a suffering person to prioritize others' feelings and needs. That discussion includes the contention, much too often accepted at face value, that depressed and suffering people should not have the capability, the agency, to make the decision to end their lives.
Let's hope that Professor Appiah will address these issues in the future.
8
Thank you, Kwame, for your thoughtful responses. As the survivor of my own brother's suicide and the President of Coping After Suicide, I deeply appreciate your important reminders about the complexity of suicide and the importance of open and truthful conversation about it.
7
I hear the second letter writer wanting a way to deal with the sadness and sense of guild, while also not wanting to burden the rest of your family. Being caring of your family does not mean that you have to bear this pain alone. I hope you find this support--a survivors' support group, perhaps.
16
It is a little worrisome that a combat soldier actually thinks "sitting in a convoy with a whole bunch of men and women in fatigues in a war zone", with "anything-could-go-wrong-at-any-time reality" is somehow "not action, or not stressful". Just being deployed, and knowing one could be blown up like some of one's peers, colleagues and co-workers is stressful enough. PTSD can come to people who witness violence, who hear about it chronically or who are living with it at the edge though they might themselves have been lucky enough to avoid it, or escape it. Why is there this much effort to "kind of move the conversation further"...away from PTSD (which might be not the only reason for the solider's suicide, but an important one of few other reasons)?
22
"Why is there this much effort to "kind of move the conversation further"...away from PTSD"
Because PTSD can be caused by those situations, then it could happen to the letter writer, too.
Because the letter writer experienced all of those things and the thought that such events could be sufficient cause for a suicide or murder is deeply unsettling.
Because if you're a soldier the last thing you need is one more risk to your life, like suicide.
"It is a little worrisome that a combat soldier actually thinks "sitting in a convoy with a whole bunch of men and women in fatigues in a war zone", with "anything-could-go-wrong-at-any-time reality" is somehow "not action, or not stressful"."
It's not worrisome at all. That's exactly the attitude any sane person would take if they had to deal with those memories and those situations in the future. What would you suggest to solders, that they consider it all a dramatic ordeal?
I wish the solder writing this letter all the best. I think that it is likely that your friend had pre-existing issues that carried through service, no matter how well you were able to deal with it, but seeing as how this is affecting you, I really do hope you'll see a counselor yourself. Knowing that an old friend or acquaintance has died is very stressful in and of itself.
Because PTSD can be caused by those situations, then it could happen to the letter writer, too.
Because the letter writer experienced all of those things and the thought that such events could be sufficient cause for a suicide or murder is deeply unsettling.
Because if you're a soldier the last thing you need is one more risk to your life, like suicide.
"It is a little worrisome that a combat soldier actually thinks "sitting in a convoy with a whole bunch of men and women in fatigues in a war zone", with "anything-could-go-wrong-at-any-time reality" is somehow "not action, or not stressful"."
It's not worrisome at all. That's exactly the attitude any sane person would take if they had to deal with those memories and those situations in the future. What would you suggest to solders, that they consider it all a dramatic ordeal?
I wish the solder writing this letter all the best. I think that it is likely that your friend had pre-existing issues that carried through service, no matter how well you were able to deal with it, but seeing as how this is affecting you, I really do hope you'll see a counselor yourself. Knowing that an old friend or acquaintance has died is very stressful in and of itself.
4
With respect to the service member, if you haven't been in touch with the man in years, then you don't know what went on with him any more than the media. You have no idea how easy or difficult his reintegration became, or what prior issues he had.
It seems to me that you are being overly defensive because you wish to be avoid being 'tarred with the same brush.' This is exactly why it is so hard to treat mental health issues and PTS in the military population.
Ask yourself honestly why you feel the need to 'correct the record'? Is it really just to stand for the truth of the circumstances of his death? Or is it for your guilt over neglecting a battle buddy, or your own trepidation that someone might think you have the same issues? In other words, who are you defending-- your friend or yourself?
If it's the latter, I don't think putting yourself into the conversation is going to mitigate the anxiety you are feeling over this.
It seems to me that you are being overly defensive because you wish to be avoid being 'tarred with the same brush.' This is exactly why it is so hard to treat mental health issues and PTS in the military population.
Ask yourself honestly why you feel the need to 'correct the record'? Is it really just to stand for the truth of the circumstances of his death? Or is it for your guilt over neglecting a battle buddy, or your own trepidation that someone might think you have the same issues? In other words, who are you defending-- your friend or yourself?
If it's the latter, I don't think putting yourself into the conversation is going to mitigate the anxiety you are feeling over this.
20
I’m not sure what it means to say that someone in a war “never saw any action.” Most of the useful work on PTSD makes it clear that it’s as much a consequence of what a person brings to a situation as it is a consequence of what took place. So what the writer experienced and what the trooper who killed himself experienced, even if they were in the same place at the same time, aren't necessarily the same. It’s possible that both were exposed to dangers that the writer didn’t recognize, among other things. One of the big myths about PTSD, I think, is that it’s likely to occur only in close-in or hand-to-hand “combat.” In a war there are all sorts of hazardous situations, only some of them at the front. And the fact is that flyers dropping bombs and artillerymen firing shells probably kill a lot more people than riflemen.
We don’t know why this man killed himself and his wife, but the writer’s own experience of the conditions can't really tell us much about how the deceased was affected by them, I don’t think.
We don’t know why this man killed himself and his wife, but the writer’s own experience of the conditions can't really tell us much about how the deceased was affected by them, I don’t think.
14
I find confusing the mother's need /wish to have her daughter call her every morning to make sure she was still alive because she did not want "her body to lie in decay for days..." Why would this happen if she is living in a facility that provides help with meals and housecleaning.........meals are provided daily, one assumes . If this is an assisted living facility, there is always someone there. I am wondering if this was simply a way for the mother to assure that she would have daily contact with her daughter and her interested concern. Her daughter certainly provided both, but unfortunately is left with the normal survivor's guilt of a loved one's suicide. What is sad is the degree of emotional isolation her mother's demands have imposed on her. I would hope (and recommend) that the daughter would talk with a therapist or counselor in order to break out of her isolation and to find support for her own emotional needs. It would appear that after caring for her mother, she is now taking responsibility for the emotional well-being of all the remaining family members. Now is the time for she herself to be taken care of, and to receive professional care and guidance unencumbered by the sticky web of family relationships.
33
The letter doesn't really describe the full range of her care, but in many retirement communities, the trend is to allow those who are able as much independence as they can handle. It varies from place to place. Some are in fully functional bungalows with a kitchen, those who are not are at least outfitted with a microwave and can choose to take care of their own meals. Housekeeping may only once a week or so, and they can decline any time they wish.
That she was able to amass a sufficient number of meds may mean that she was independent enough that they were administered to her regularly but she was not under any facility or legal mandate to also be witnessed taking them, or it could mean inattentive caregiving by staff. We really don't know.
That she was able to amass a sufficient number of meds may mean that she was independent enough that they were administered to her regularly but she was not under any facility or legal mandate to also be witnessed taking them, or it could mean inattentive caregiving by staff. We really don't know.
At least 3 friends and near-friends have killed themselves, and I don't know why, because before they did it, we lost communication. Thank God none of them killed anybody else.
I've got zero to say in public about any of them -- because they all got lost, disconnected, and I've got little clue how or why.
One came back from a few years doing EOD in Iraq. He OD'd on pain pills and acetominophen and booze.
One was struggling with schizophrenia, we all thought he was doing OK on the family farm -- he put the 12-gage in his mouth on his birthday.
One had a PhD and a JD and was a junior partner -- drunk himself dead.
All of them just silently disconnected, at the funerals we all heard -- "didn't you hear from him the last few years, I thought you knew?"
There's nothing I know, specifically, about how any of them got lost and dead, lives wasted.
There's no specific personal data I could share here that would help others.
Yeah, it hurts, but finding a good way to help -- dunno
I've got zero to say in public about any of them -- because they all got lost, disconnected, and I've got little clue how or why.
One came back from a few years doing EOD in Iraq. He OD'd on pain pills and acetominophen and booze.
One was struggling with schizophrenia, we all thought he was doing OK on the family farm -- he put the 12-gage in his mouth on his birthday.
One had a PhD and a JD and was a junior partner -- drunk himself dead.
All of them just silently disconnected, at the funerals we all heard -- "didn't you hear from him the last few years, I thought you knew?"
There's nothing I know, specifically, about how any of them got lost and dead, lives wasted.
There's no specific personal data I could share here that would help others.
Yeah, it hurts, but finding a good way to help -- dunno
6
Mr. Appiah: you totally blew your sympathetic note to the guy whose military buddy killed his wife. Please consider readressing the issue for what it is: domestic abuse. I’ve done a rewrite. Feel free to use:
Dear Anonymous:
Words matter here: This was a murder/suicide — an act of domestic killing. It was not a “taking of a life” as you delicately put it, nor some kind of rational act, as you suggest in asking whether his contemplation of killing her could in any way be as damaging as the death itself.
Your avoidance of calling this what is was suggests two things: you’re aware of some deep dark evil here and don’t know how to talk about it, or you don’t find her death to be a big deal. Without knowing that, it’s hard to advise you.
Were you aware of preplanning on his part? If so, speak to law enforcement about it. I would also be careful in approaching the media on the “wounded warrior” argument, unless it is to focus on knowledge of the killer’s domestic abuse, home situation and state of mind.
Unless you have something specific to offer there, you won’t help the media much. They tend to write what they want.
Dear Anonymous:
Words matter here: This was a murder/suicide — an act of domestic killing. It was not a “taking of a life” as you delicately put it, nor some kind of rational act, as you suggest in asking whether his contemplation of killing her could in any way be as damaging as the death itself.
Your avoidance of calling this what is was suggests two things: you’re aware of some deep dark evil here and don’t know how to talk about it, or you don’t find her death to be a big deal. Without knowing that, it’s hard to advise you.
Were you aware of preplanning on his part? If so, speak to law enforcement about it. I would also be careful in approaching the media on the “wounded warrior” argument, unless it is to focus on knowledge of the killer’s domestic abuse, home situation and state of mind.
Unless you have something specific to offer there, you won’t help the media much. They tend to write what they want.
29
Not the first time Appiah's sidestepped violence against women. Last week he really wasn't interested in following up on a potential rape victim, preferred to counsel the letter-writer on whether he should remain friends with a possible rapist.
4
THANK YOU. I was distressed at how the wife was being written about as just an extension of the man's suicide.
Her own husband killed her.
Her own husband killed her.
10
The best argument I have ever come across on why not to kill yourself:
"Life may not be exactly pleasant, but it is at least not dull. Heave yourself into Hell today, and you may miss, tomorrow or next day, another Scopes trial, or another War to End War, or perchance a rich and buxom widow with all her first husband's clothes. There are always more Hardings hatching. I advocate hanging on as long as possible." --- H.L. Mencken
"Life may not be exactly pleasant, but it is at least not dull. Heave yourself into Hell today, and you may miss, tomorrow or next day, another Scopes trial, or another War to End War, or perchance a rich and buxom widow with all her first husband's clothes. There are always more Hardings hatching. I advocate hanging on as long as possible." --- H.L. Mencken
11
Thank you.
1
I don't view the mother's death as premature. Given her declining physical and intellectual capacities (that she had apparently been living with for years), I can hardly fault her for taking enough pills to cause her own death. It seems very rational to me and nothing to be ashamed of. However, I wouldn't share this with young, vulnerable grandchildren until they are older and more emotionally sound. I think the daughter could benefit from talking about her sense of guilt and sadness over the loss of her mother with a therapist. She may end up respecting he mother's decision.
16
I strongly disagree with the notion that someone who knows a death deemed natural is in fact a suicide is compelled, ethically, to set the facts straight. In fact, in the case of this elderly woman and her daughter I think that divulging the old woman's secret would be a violation of her privacy. And what good would it do to tell? If the mother had wanted the rest of her family to know she chose to die and took an overdose of pills, wouldn't she have left a letter for them explaining why? She took her daughter into her confidence -- only her daughter -- and that loving woman was kind enough to follow her mom's wishes to check on her each morning. I believe that one has the right to say enough is enough and choose, actively, when to die. And I believe that it is no one else's business how that death happens, unless there is a question of a crime having occurred or perhaps if the suicide voids a life insurance policy. In the case detailed here, I would advise silence.
18
By not telling, the stigma of suicide is enabled. And my point is.... there should be no "stigma" attached to the suicide death or to the survivor(daughter) loved ones of the death by suicide. If one dies as a result of cancer... there is no "stigma".... and death by suicide... be it in the elderly or young.... is a terminal mental illness.... not a "wrong moral choice" or anything like that.
1
Has anyone else mentioned how terribly burdened the writer of the second letter is? I, for one, feel great sympathy for having been made to live through this. I wonder what else the mother must have scarred her/him with growing up.
Yes, secrets are like poison, and yes, the unknown will affect everyone concerned. It sounds to me like the writer needs to unburden themselves, but definitely get counseling, and make it clear how unfair it was to be put in that position.
Yes, secrets are like poison, and yes, the unknown will affect everyone concerned. It sounds to me like the writer needs to unburden themselves, but definitely get counseling, and make it clear how unfair it was to be put in that position.
8
I agree with A.J. from France. I have great sympathy for the letter writer; her mother has left her with a secret that is making her feel guilty for not having prevented her mother's death--a death that was desired--and also puts her in the difficult position of not being able to unburden herself to her family. While preserving the mother's memory is important, I believe that the quality of the writer's life is of greater concern. I am not saying here that she should tell her family the secret, but she should not have to bear it on her own.
To LW 2 - your mother probably lived where doctor-patient euthanasia is criminalized and lacked legal medical help to end her life. Her actions can be viewed as carefully planned self-euthanasia to end constant suffering of a painful, life-diminishing illness. There is no shame here, no blame and nothing to judge.
My advice is tell family who wouldn't understand her final choice - which was her right to choose - that she died of 'complications' of her lengthy heart failure. That's truthful.
I'm very sorry you have lost your mother. You sound like a loving, devoted daughter and truly 'present' for her, calling daily, listening to her fears, encouraging her to continue living, and available so she could honestly express her sadness that illness controlled - and diminished - every aspect of her life. Bless your willingness to listen, however difficult it was. Many sick elderly people go through this final part of life in isolation because no one is comfortable listening to their despair and suffering. Having a loving daughter who listened as she voiced her pain and fear likely lessened her burden and helped her not feel alone in her final months. Many people, frightened by the elderly's suffering, turn away, forcing them into silence and isolation. Your willingness to listen to her fear was a gift - she didn't die thinking no one understood. She knew you did.
You did right by your mother. A daughter like you is a blessing.
My sympathy to you.
My advice is tell family who wouldn't understand her final choice - which was her right to choose - that she died of 'complications' of her lengthy heart failure. That's truthful.
I'm very sorry you have lost your mother. You sound like a loving, devoted daughter and truly 'present' for her, calling daily, listening to her fears, encouraging her to continue living, and available so she could honestly express her sadness that illness controlled - and diminished - every aspect of her life. Bless your willingness to listen, however difficult it was. Many sick elderly people go through this final part of life in isolation because no one is comfortable listening to their despair and suffering. Having a loving daughter who listened as she voiced her pain and fear likely lessened her burden and helped her not feel alone in her final months. Many people, frightened by the elderly's suffering, turn away, forcing them into silence and isolation. Your willingness to listen to her fear was a gift - she didn't die thinking no one understood. She knew you did.
You did right by your mother. A daughter like you is a blessing.
My sympathy to you.
27
LW 1 - you really don't know much about what happened here or contributed to this murder, right? You simply feel troubled that you think the military is being 'dissed' and that your friend may be misunderstood and may or may not have died from some issues caused by his deployment.
Who knows?
However, as others have noted, he killed his wife.
Whatever else happened here - and you don't seem to have a clue - it's entirely possible he committed suicide 'simply' because he murdered his wife and did not wish to spend the rest of his life in prison - or be executed by the state. This desire to die to avoid prison or execution often follows when men have felt entitled to murder their partners, girlfriends or children and do not wish to deal with the consequences of their violent behavior. Choices he made about whether to live or die following the murder are secondary issues to the fact he committed this horrendous crime. Any 'issues' about 'explaining' his death seem far less compelling or important than why he committed a murder.
This kind of murder of an intimate partner is fairly common in our society and all kinds of men do this - some were in the military, some weren't, some saw combat, some sat behind a desk all their lives, some were just out of college, some were elderly, whatever. This never ceases to horrify me and my greatest concern is for their children, if they had children, and the effect of her murder on her loved ones. Maybe have concern for them.
Who knows?
However, as others have noted, he killed his wife.
Whatever else happened here - and you don't seem to have a clue - it's entirely possible he committed suicide 'simply' because he murdered his wife and did not wish to spend the rest of his life in prison - or be executed by the state. This desire to die to avoid prison or execution often follows when men have felt entitled to murder their partners, girlfriends or children and do not wish to deal with the consequences of their violent behavior. Choices he made about whether to live or die following the murder are secondary issues to the fact he committed this horrendous crime. Any 'issues' about 'explaining' his death seem far less compelling or important than why he committed a murder.
This kind of murder of an intimate partner is fairly common in our society and all kinds of men do this - some were in the military, some weren't, some saw combat, some sat behind a desk all their lives, some were just out of college, some were elderly, whatever. This never ceases to horrify me and my greatest concern is for their children, if they had children, and the effect of her murder on her loved ones. Maybe have concern for them.
36
I was faced with a similar "do I tell" decision with my mother's death and opted to not tell. When we decide whether or not to tell something like this, I think it is very important to fully appreciate the possible/probable effect on others. Even when they've been involved in previous conversations, if they have not been there, have not heard the pain, seen the effects of illness, final decisions such as this can be devastating. I believe there are things some people do not want to know unless they need to, because the knowledge is unbearable for them.
16
I believe that we only ask tough questions when we are ready to hear the answers. If no one asks, don't tell.
2
The second letter writer's now deceased mother bestowed an honor when she asked him (her) by to perform a very difficult task requires waiving some personal rights.
For some years, because of the work I do, I was asked to speak to college students about what was euphemistically called the "right to die." Inevitably, students came to ask what I thought was the most important question after the decision to end life: whom do I ask to assist me in this very personal (and final) process of ending one's life, or who can I be sure will honor all my final wishes.
That question suggest one about trust: who does the dying person believe is trustworthy based on the belief that the person will carry out instructions without equivocation or exception and hold close those confidences the dying person instructs be held close.
I think those are the appropriate ethical tests as well as the appropriate context to construct a model of the ethical inquiry here. The trust aspect blesses the dying person with confidence of that she has control over some aspects of this late in life act and assures the dying there is someone who will fulfill the dying person's final, express instructions.
One agreeing to assist in this process of dying, subordinates personal feelings, expectations, and goals to those of the dying, and I respectfully submit, waives any right to veto the wishes of the dying. This is difficult but an opposite action violates the trust reposed by the deceased.
For some years, because of the work I do, I was asked to speak to college students about what was euphemistically called the "right to die." Inevitably, students came to ask what I thought was the most important question after the decision to end life: whom do I ask to assist me in this very personal (and final) process of ending one's life, or who can I be sure will honor all my final wishes.
That question suggest one about trust: who does the dying person believe is trustworthy based on the belief that the person will carry out instructions without equivocation or exception and hold close those confidences the dying person instructs be held close.
I think those are the appropriate ethical tests as well as the appropriate context to construct a model of the ethical inquiry here. The trust aspect blesses the dying person with confidence of that she has control over some aspects of this late in life act and assures the dying there is someone who will fulfill the dying person's final, express instructions.
One agreeing to assist in this process of dying, subordinates personal feelings, expectations, and goals to those of the dying, and I respectfully submit, waives any right to veto the wishes of the dying. This is difficult but an opposite action violates the trust reposed by the deceased.
13
I believe that the Mom in case 2 died a heroic death. She was brave enough to take matters into her own hands and didn't burden her loved ones with the responsibility of presiding over her prolonged, medically torturous death.
Contrast her death with that of my 78 year-old father, who suffered a devastating heart attack that left him mentally disabled (he was clinically dead for at least 5 minutes). He died about three years later, after enduring one round of chemotherapy and starting on a second cycle that left him unable to walk (he was said to be suffering from lymphoma). He was then placed in a nursing home where who-knows-who stole his wedding ring and wheelchair. He developed bedsores and likely died from blood poisoning as a result. And the facility where he was robbed and mistreated has a great reputation and cost my Mom about $200,000 out of pocket for about 2 years.
And during the two years he was institutionalize his "lymphoma" never advanced despite not completing the second round of chemo. Hate to sound paranoid here, but it seems to me that his dying body was harvested for all the money it could produce.
So much better to take things into your own hands.
Contrast her death with that of my 78 year-old father, who suffered a devastating heart attack that left him mentally disabled (he was clinically dead for at least 5 minutes). He died about three years later, after enduring one round of chemotherapy and starting on a second cycle that left him unable to walk (he was said to be suffering from lymphoma). He was then placed in a nursing home where who-knows-who stole his wedding ring and wheelchair. He developed bedsores and likely died from blood poisoning as a result. And the facility where he was robbed and mistreated has a great reputation and cost my Mom about $200,000 out of pocket for about 2 years.
And during the two years he was institutionalize his "lymphoma" never advanced despite not completing the second round of chemo. Hate to sound paranoid here, but it seems to me that his dying body was harvested for all the money it could produce.
So much better to take things into your own hands.
21
There is a name for it: human husbandry. The cultivation of other human beings for profit.
So glad you're back to a single, uncomplicated ethicist.
18
The son or daughter should seek relief from the burden by sharing the story with a counselor or friend, not with the family. Within the family, it will only cause pain.
20
I wouldn't consider this suicide, just a side effect of the mother's medical condition. In a previous era, she would have died "naturally", so why deprive her of it now? And if it's not suicide, there is nothing to tell and no one that needs to hear it, so why make life hard for her survivors and heirs?
17
I work with older folks, many of whom suffer long-term chronic illnesses. Some of them have trusted me enough to share with me honestly how they felt. They want to die because of their poor health and some have even asked for my or my staff's help. Many were not depressed in the sense they doubted their own worth; they loved and were loved by their families. They cherished life except they could no longer live it the way they wished anymore. So, I hope that people come to understand that suicide isn't always linked with depression/ anxiety and may be a very rational decision in response to poor health. The impact of such deaths aren't necessarily negative: some families are glad their elders no longer have to suffer, that their loved ones were able to control some circumstances of their death, etc.
The letter writer should not feel guilty about her mother's death. Probably nothing you say or do would have changed her mind. Please do not view her actions as bearing on the worth of your relationship; don't view her actions as meaning she loved you or the family any less. On the other hand, would you have wanted her to live and suffer, just because you needed her? I'm not religious but do issues of sin and suicide affect your views?
I don't know whether you should tell your family or not but if you are burdened by guilt/ foreboding, when you tell them, regardless of the content, the news will have a negative impact.
The letter writer should not feel guilty about her mother's death. Probably nothing you say or do would have changed her mind. Please do not view her actions as bearing on the worth of your relationship; don't view her actions as meaning she loved you or the family any less. On the other hand, would you have wanted her to live and suffer, just because you needed her? I'm not religious but do issues of sin and suicide affect your views?
I don't know whether you should tell your family or not but if you are burdened by guilt/ foreboding, when you tell them, regardless of the content, the news will have a negative impact.
13
To the second advice seeker: I recommend you find a good counselor you click with, and talk this through with him or her. (S)he should both be able to help you come to terms with the way your mother died, and help you work out how much, if anything, to tell your other family members.
Best wishes to you. I hope you will be able to see that you handled this situation as well as humanly possible, after it weighs less heavily on you.
Best wishes to you. I hope you will be able to see that you handled this situation as well as humanly possible, after it weighs less heavily on you.
12
With respect to the first situation, while it may be "hard, however, to drive out false assumptions with real uncertainties — to replace simplicities with complexities. This may be a fight that can’t be won." But in my opinion, it is a fight worth fighting.
As for the second situation, I believe The Ethicist's advice to the woman who lost her mother was misguided at best. I think the daughter should seek the advice of an experienced grief counselor before she takes the action suggested. It's quite possible that her family members may try to blame her (or even report her to authorities) for not intervening or trying harder to "save" her mother.
As for the second situation, I believe The Ethicist's advice to the woman who lost her mother was misguided at best. I think the daughter should seek the advice of an experienced grief counselor before she takes the action suggested. It's quite possible that her family members may try to blame her (or even report her to authorities) for not intervening or trying harder to "save" her mother.
6
No matter how much time you spend with a person it is impossible to truly 'know' the person. Each of us has a part that forever remains hidden and is only accessible to us. no matter how well you think you know this person, you don't know them completely. You also cannot equate your service or someone else's service or how you coped with this person. This is from someone who spent almost 30 years in uniform and who has lost many comrades to many causes. Please, do not say anything. If you do you are almost certain to not make things clearer, but instead you will make things even murkier. In any case no matter what you say there will always be those who believe they know better. Let the process of grieving and remembrance go its natural course.
9
The murder suicide was certainly linked to military service: the access to and familiarity with weapons, the training to overcome one's natural aversion to shooting and killing others, even the military's classification of family members as "dependents" eg chattel to be disposed of at will. With or without deployment and any ensuing trauma, the military service was a primary factor.
3
He didn't "take his wife's life," he murdered her. Words matter, even when you're talking about a woman.
21
I think that suicide is the wrong word to describe your mother's passing. Hers sounds like a rational, even healthy approach to taking control over the ending of one's life. It doesn't sound as if hers was an escape from life, which is what suicide is, but rather an affirmative decision to own one's death.
11
The deed is done and the book has closed honorably on your mother's life. You also have the option to not say anything to anyone. You could put the info in your own end-of-life documents or even just take it to your own grave. Secret-keeping is a mysterious, time-honored human capacity.
6
Regarding the elderly mother-- there is no indication that the mother actually did take the medications to kill herself, only the daughter's suspicion. It's likely, given that the mother confided in the daughter a plan to do this, but it's also just as likely that she finally succumbed to her heart condition, or had a massive stroke, or a massive pulmonary embolus, or any number of things that can kill you suddenly. Unless there was an autopsy that yielded an unequivocal cause of death, I would not tell the family, and she really cannot be 100% sure that the mother did kill herself, and that's enough to keep her mouth shut about it.
20
The veteran I believe should write about this misperception or automatic labelling as PTSD any suicide of a vet. This was a murder-suicide, as responders below indicate. What was the wife´s crime that warranted execution? Why was this guy enlisting? What was his post-service life like? Was the wife threatening to leave? There are many reasons a person may kill his loved one then himself, it would enrich the public dialogue to discourage knee-jerk PTSD diagnoses from strangers.
5
There is no 'setting the record straight' in social media comments. There is only further muddying the waters. It is impossible to know what prompted this and no good comes from wading in.
11
What's totally missing from this discussion any mention of the mainstream Judeo-Christian doctrine that suicide is wicked and wrong - that it's a rejection of God and a grave sin, a violation of one of the ten commandments. It's possible that some of the dead mother's relatives (though not, apparently, the writer) see it that way. Let them make the kind and generous assumption that the mother got confused about her pills at the end. She saw no need to announce her suicide (if it was that) to the family, through a letter left behind or otherwise. How is it the daughter's place to speak for her?
8
Well, for the sake of humanity and circumstances like the one in question here, I'm certainly glad that dogmatic religious doctrines like that one have lost their rigid grip on society.
1
There may be a genetic component to suicide http://www.theguardian.com/science/2011/nov/14/gene-raises-suicide-risk.
lancet. 2002 Oct 12;360(9340):1126-30.
Suicide risk in relation to family history of completed suicide and psychiatric disorders: a nested case-control study based on longitudinal registers.
Qin P1, Agerbo E, Mortensen PB.
Author information
lancet. 2002 Oct 12;360(9340):1126-30.
Suicide risk in relation to family history of completed suicide and psychiatric disorders: a nested case-control study based on longitudinal registers.
Qin P1, Agerbo E, Mortensen PB.
Author information
1
The person whose mother committed suicide should keep her mouth closed. I have seen suicides happen as dominoes in a family. If she has to talk to someone about this, see a counselor.
2
If we had humane laws in this country that allowed terminally ill people to choose to end their own lives, the second letter-writer wouldn't be facing the dilemma she's currently facing. She clearly has been courageous and respectful in dealing with a very difficult situation, but not everyone is equally able to do so. Let's reform our laws to remove this burden from others.
4
It's quite plausible that the mother who ended her life with her cache of pills planned her demise specifically to avoid the possibility that some overzealous prosecutor would seek homicide charges against the son. That is unfortunately a real possibility, given the way prosecutors in the American "criminal justice" system are often motivated more by politics, Numbers, and career ambition than by justice.
Although the mother asked the son to check in on her every morning, she did not disclose when she planned to take the pills. The son would discover the suicide only after it occurred. That should remove any direct involvement of the son in the mother's act, and thus make the case less attractive to a prosecutor seeking to exploit it.
There is unfortunately no clear answer to the question of whether to tell the family. Yes, it's an "important truth about her life." But will this truth set anyone free? Perhaps the way to proceed is for the son to consult a counselor who might be able to help him work through the sadness and guilt. He might then have more clarity about the appropriate way to proceed.
Although the mother asked the son to check in on her every morning, she did not disclose when she planned to take the pills. The son would discover the suicide only after it occurred. That should remove any direct involvement of the son in the mother's act, and thus make the case less attractive to a prosecutor seeking to exploit it.
There is unfortunately no clear answer to the question of whether to tell the family. Yes, it's an "important truth about her life." But will this truth set anyone free? Perhaps the way to proceed is for the son to consult a counselor who might be able to help him work through the sadness and guilt. He might then have more clarity about the appropriate way to proceed.
6
I totally disagree with the second piece of advice. Mr. Appiah does not know enough about the situation to assess it. It's not the responsibility of the letter writer to tell people how his mother really died and his mother may not have wanted them to know. The letter writer or others may be put at risk for sharing this information. The letter writer may be ostracized or even investigated by the police. I think the advice is crazy.
9
I'm also appalled at the brushing off by the letter writer and the ethicist of a woman's murder. And I'm not sure what record there is to set straight. Maybe the guy did suffer from his time in the military, even if he "saw no action." Maybe not. The writer can't know for sure. So I'm not sure what speaking up about any of that would do except cause more grief to two families—the relatives of the murdered woman and the relatives of her murderer, who then killed himself. Do they really need to hear the opinion of a guy their now-dead relative knew briefly and who has no idea what led him to commit murder/suicide simply because he feels compelled to set some sort of imagined record straight?
10
My siblings and I were children when our mother killed herself. It is now over 50 years since she died and we are still struggling with the loss because of the lies and secrecy surrounding the events that led up to the fatal act, the act itself, and the aftermath. We were never allowed to grief because she was never mentioned. That was how the subject of her suicide was avoided. It is imperative that the truth be told! 1)Humans are more resilient than one realizes. 2)People, including children, know when they are not being told the truth. By not telling the truth, you are disallowing them the opportunity to grieve and understand the person they lost. 3)I think when a person says "i won't tell so-and-so because she won't be able to handle it," it's really because she doesn't want to talk about it herself. I facilitated a suicide support group for people who lost a loved one to suicide, and I have seen the devastation that lack of open communication causes. Suicide continues to be a taboo subject, and the less people talk about it, the more isolated people who've been affected by the suicide become. People directly affected by suicide must have a voice and be listened to! When people learn the truth about a family suicide by extrapolating, through gossip or some other indirect way, it triggers an anger that cannot be matched. Think of it from this perspective. "How dare you lie to me about my mother/my grandmother/my sister/my brother, etc?" Please tell the truth.
7
Children and others *don't* always know when they are being lied to, although in your family that was obviously the case. I am sorry for the pain it caused you and appreciate your desire to prevent others from the same suffering, but I know from my own experience and the experiences of friends that it is entirely possible to live with people and not know some important truths about them.
4
Your situation and these people's are very different. To die by suicide in midlife, with small children, is not the same thing as ending one's life at the end, with no hope of health or any quality of life, living in a facility. I'm very sorry about your mother's suicide and its aftermath. I hope you can see the difference, though.
4
Several recent murders come to mind where the killer ended up taking his own life, so the soldier's concerns have reasonable footing. I don't think he was diminishing the loss of the wife's life, but he seems to looking to see what motivated the killer, without whom the conversation does not take place.
In what forum would the soldier expound his theory? Neither family would ever need to see it, and it is certain that it would not lessen their grief. His stated goal is question PTSD as the cause, and even he appears to have questions about his theory. He could certainly write his essay without mentioning the specific couple in this profoundly tragic situation, and may find an investigative reporter who wants to explore the subject.
No one else need know how the grandmother died; in fact she may have had a coronary or stroke while planning to take her own life. Apparently her doctor assumed she died of natural causes, and she was gravely ill. Members of the family are working their way through grief, as is the writer, and there is nothing to be gained by refreshing their experience of the death. Suicides are unfathomable to the healthy, but suicides have inspired suicidal behavior among the depressed or fragile, especially if there was a strong bond.
This news is not a burden that can be lightened by sharing, especially with someone whose emotional strength is not high. Triggering a calamity would not serve the memory of a lady who I think displayed quiet strength.
In what forum would the soldier expound his theory? Neither family would ever need to see it, and it is certain that it would not lessen their grief. His stated goal is question PTSD as the cause, and even he appears to have questions about his theory. He could certainly write his essay without mentioning the specific couple in this profoundly tragic situation, and may find an investigative reporter who wants to explore the subject.
No one else need know how the grandmother died; in fact she may have had a coronary or stroke while planning to take her own life. Apparently her doctor assumed she died of natural causes, and she was gravely ill. Members of the family are working their way through grief, as is the writer, and there is nothing to be gained by refreshing their experience of the death. Suicides are unfathomable to the healthy, but suicides have inspired suicidal behavior among the depressed or fragile, especially if there was a strong bond.
This news is not a burden that can be lightened by sharing, especially with someone whose emotional strength is not high. Triggering a calamity would not serve the memory of a lady who I think displayed quiet strength.
4
I have a very different view of the situation involving the elderly mother. She shared information with her son or daughter on a confidential basis and that should in most cases end the inquiry. I believe that someone who accepts information on a confidential basis should keep it confidential unless (i) there is reason to believe that the source of the information would not object to disclosure as a result of changed circumstances or (ii) there is a compelling reason for disclosure to avoid serious harm. It's possible that the first exception applies in this case (ie., the mother sought confidentiality only to avoid interference with her plans), but we don't have enough facts to evaluate that possibility. Absent clarity on that question I believe that the information should stay confidential.
6
I was in college when my father commit suicide. His depression was a secret kept by my mother for years. He was a successful businessman and it was a complete shock to me. It wasn't the only family secret. From a young age we were expected to keep silent about what we saw and heard at home. In my father's suicide note, he asked that we tell everyone he died of a heart attack. I remember thinking that the secrets would never end and wondered how I could keep something so horrifying a secret. I took my cues from the rest of the family, and although we didn't talk openly about it, we didn't lie about it either. Secrets like that will eat you up and I don't recommend keeping them. Your mother was human and she was in pain (mentally if not physically). Why would knowing this, destroy your mother's memory for anyone who loved her?
7
"...a friend with whom I served in Iraq took his own life and that of his wife... Is it ethical to make this information public to help move the conversation forward on what caused this, or should I remain silent, as I can’t know if this experience helped cause this tragedy?"
What do you think you will accomplish by doing this? Unfortunately you will probably not accomplish anything except perhaps get yourself dragged into a mudslinging match.
"My ethics question has to do with the knowledge of her death. She has a grandson and a step-granddaughter who would be crushed to discover she had taken her own life..."
I see no reason why *I* would want to ruin the memories of the grandchildren by telling them something that they don't need to know simply because I feel uncomfortable.
What do you think you will accomplish by doing this? Unfortunately you will probably not accomplish anything except perhaps get yourself dragged into a mudslinging match.
"My ethics question has to do with the knowledge of her death. She has a grandson and a step-granddaughter who would be crushed to discover she had taken her own life..."
I see no reason why *I* would want to ruin the memories of the grandchildren by telling them something that they don't need to know simply because I feel uncomfortable.
10
Having had discussions with a close uncle on his possible suicidal intentions - (he has survived HIV and now fights a painful cancer). As he did not bind me into his confidence, I found it necessary, years later, to discuss the matter with my dad, his senior of 14 years. I was relieved that we stood on similar ground, in a duty of noninterference. Neither to help nor hinder. Still, a painful position on which to dwell.
3
I disagree with both responses by Mr. Appiah this week. The first LW states that he had not spoken to his friend in years, but is angered by service-related connections made by the media and Internet commenters about the murder and suicide. Mr. Appiah suggests the LW should feel free to weigh in. By doing what? Should he go to the media with his possibly unrelated knowledge, or worse yet, get involved in an Internet "discussion"? He can offer his information to the police, since surely there was an investigation conducted. Then he should stay out of it.
As for the second LW, it's understandable that he or she is stressed by the knowledge of the mother's suicide. But the mother shared her intentions in confidence, and I think the LW should continue to respect that wish for confidentiality. I see nothing to be gained by telling the rest of the family. Another commenter suggested the LW should share the burden and feelings of guilt with a counselor. I think that is a much better idea.
As for the second LW, it's understandable that he or she is stressed by the knowledge of the mother's suicide. But the mother shared her intentions in confidence, and I think the LW should continue to respect that wish for confidentiality. I see nothing to be gained by telling the rest of the family. Another commenter suggested the LW should share the burden and feelings of guilt with a counselor. I think that is a much better idea.
7
For the Monday morning quarterbacks: it is sure is a lot easier picking apart someone else's mess than your own. Many times I think the comments about the writer of the column or the parties mentioned say more about the commenter than anyone else. The number of judgments made about the individuals, their descriptions of their problems is really ludicrous and indicative of what has happened with electronic media and the ability to readily share our prejudices, attitudes, personal quirks and be able to succinctly second quess someone else. Wonderful, isn't it.
4
A long time ago, my barely 50-year-old mother, having learned she had lymphoma, decided not to take treatment that could have prolonged her life for ten years or more. She didn't tell me about this decision until her condition became noticeable. I had two young children for whom she served as a second parent, as I had been a single, teenage mother. We all moved in with her to care for her during her last year.
It was hard enough for us to lose her. But I do believe that her well-known lifelong depression fueled her decision. And my oldest son, who was extremely close to her, blamed me for years for her death, thinking I should have been able to convince her to stay out of love for us, or for our love for her.
I wish to this day that she hadn't told my kids that she had made any part of the decision to die. Why not let it be, in their minds, just a tragic disease that took her away? I would feel differently if she had committed suicide while healthy. But she did, after all, have a probably incurable cancer. Did they really have to know more?
It was hard enough for us to lose her. But I do believe that her well-known lifelong depression fueled her decision. And my oldest son, who was extremely close to her, blamed me for years for her death, thinking I should have been able to convince her to stay out of love for us, or for our love for her.
I wish to this day that she hadn't told my kids that she had made any part of the decision to die. Why not let it be, in their minds, just a tragic disease that took her away? I would feel differently if she had committed suicide while healthy. But she did, after all, have a probably incurable cancer. Did they really have to know more?
4
Regarding the child concerned about sharing her (or his) knowledge of her mother's suicide, I think you missed something very important. She says, "But the burden of this knowledge weighs heavily on me, and I feel a deep sadness and sense of guilt that I could not keep her from ending her own life prematurely." She already seems to feel that it would be a mistake to tell her nephew about the suicide, and she's the one closest to the situation, so we should respect her estimation of the possible bad consequences. Yet she feels very pained and burdened by her knowledge. I would want to recommend to her that she seek counseling and share this knowledge with a sympathetic counselor. It's a lot to hold bottled up inside. A good counselor may be able to help her work through her feelings. I do agree with you that she handled the situation as well as one possibly could.
8
Finally, some ethical questions worthy of consideration in such an august publication.
Regarding the ex-serviceman, there is a tendency in all of us to want to find a simple explanation when somebody takes their life. While the LW has some information that others don't and is free to add that to the general discussion, he is under no obligation to do so. Those whose job it is to investigate these things already have that knowledge. Adding it to he general discussion doesn't really help anyone. As several pointed out here, it was not merely a suicide but a murder as well, making the search for clues all the more frustrating.
As for the son's dilemma, I'm not sure what benefit would come from sharing the information. It was clearly something the mother chose to be somewhat private about. Absent any other motivation, that would seem to be the deciding factor.
Regarding the ex-serviceman, there is a tendency in all of us to want to find a simple explanation when somebody takes their life. While the LW has some information that others don't and is free to add that to the general discussion, he is under no obligation to do so. Those whose job it is to investigate these things already have that knowledge. Adding it to he general discussion doesn't really help anyone. As several pointed out here, it was not merely a suicide but a murder as well, making the search for clues all the more frustrating.
As for the son's dilemma, I'm not sure what benefit would come from sharing the information. It was clearly something the mother chose to be somewhat private about. Absent any other motivation, that would seem to be the deciding factor.
1
Two adult sons, well into middle age. I am one of them. Our mother was dying five years after our father. She had been in the active process of doing so for several days, she knew that she was dying, she saw her death as a welcome relief from her suffering, and she said so -- several times -- even before she began to die. Then when it was clear that it would be another ten minutes or ten hours, and I was alone with her, she whispered that she was tired, that she was ready. I knew what was next. She asked me to help. She took her last breaths about twenty minutes later. I was unable to share that story with my brother until fifteen years had passed. He thanked me. I never asked for what did he offer thanks.
10
My guess - your brother thanked you for being strong enough and loving enough to do what you needed to do to help your mother avoid more pain.
4
I must disagree with the Ethicists remark to the second letter writer. In what way is "the truth about how she died...an important truth about her life?" Had she wanted others in the family to know her state of mind or her plans, presumably she would have taken them into her confidence. The fact that she did not establishes what her wishes in this matter are and why should her privacy not be respected? Where does the idea come from that just because we want to know something that we have a right to that information?
Although the letter writer does not say so, there is no suggestion that an official finding of death by suicide was entered. So perhaps she did die of her heart condition? If the LW does not know for a certainty that her mother took her own life, she would be wrong to violate her mother's confidence. If the doctor who pronounced her dead and filled out her death certificate saw no reason to suspect suicide, whose life would be better if the LW raised that possibility?
Although the letter writer does not say so, there is no suggestion that an official finding of death by suicide was entered. So perhaps she did die of her heart condition? If the LW does not know for a certainty that her mother took her own life, she would be wrong to violate her mother's confidence. If the doctor who pronounced her dead and filled out her death certificate saw no reason to suspect suicide, whose life would be better if the LW raised that possibility?
6
"Is it ethical to make this information public to help move the conversation forward on what caused this"
I struggle with the phrase "help move the conversation forward" -- What really does that mean? To what actual point? It sounds like Oprah Winfrey TV show speak and I do wonder what the person's real motivation are. It sounds contorted and odd and I suspect there is more to the story than the person is telling about his relation to the suicidal killer.
I struggle with the phrase "help move the conversation forward" -- What really does that mean? To what actual point? It sounds like Oprah Winfrey TV show speak and I do wonder what the person's real motivation are. It sounds contorted and odd and I suspect there is more to the story than the person is telling about his relation to the suicidal killer.
9
I can't guess what the reader meant, but clumsy or cliched writing aside, he might just have meant inching closer to the truth. Bringing past experience to bear on a present situation, which might help others understand why someone would do such a thing as murder their wife and then commit self-murder. Maybe what we're doing here is all a part of 'moving the conversation forward.' Trying to get into the minds of people who do things we could barely imagine ourselves doing, because we have a need to try it on for ourselves and see if it might someday be useful (I'm referring to the suicide here, not the murder). All of us deserve compassion, the killer, the killed, the writer, you, me.
2
It's not the topic of the question, but any thoughts on the ethics surrounding reporting the death as a suicide or not? Life insurance policies might not need to pay out in the case of a suicide. Misrepresenting the cause of death might be considered fraud.
13
Life insurance companies will only consider denying a claim resulting from suicide in the first two years after a policy is issued. This is a non-issue, as it is most highly unlikely that a policy would be issued in the previous two years due to the mother's health condition. A medical examiner declares the cause of death, not the son. The son can not even be sure that suicide was involved. No fraud exists.
4
Most individual life insurance contracts have a two year or shorter 'contestable period' if the death occurred during this period the cause of death would be of any consequence.
3
Regarding sharing about the elderly mother's decision to end her life by taking medications, perhaps the son or daughter could speak with a counselor before deciding whether to share this information with other family members. It's hard to imagine the sadness this might cause those who are emotionally frail and whether it is necessary. My condolences on the loss of your mother.
58
Yes, I'd say the murdered wife being overlooked in the first ethics question is a major faux pas by Mr. Appiah. It may even contain the answer to the question about how come the ex-serviceman killed himself. His lack of domestic happiness, for whatever set of reasons, may have had as much to do with it as his time in the military. There may have been money problems, an affair, or both.
As for the mother's suicide by pills in the face of declining physical health in the second set of questions, I have to wonder if the son or daughter ever suggested mental health counseling to their mother. The woman may have been depressed on top of incurable heart problems. This comorbidity is well known in medicine by now.
The set of problems involved in euthanasia deaths is compounded here by secrecy. I would have asked my mother to share her suicide plans with the rest of her family rather than make me bear the burden all by myself. Her choice in doing this gives the dutiful son/daughter the option and the right to share them after her somewhat cowardly death.
16
"after her somewhat cowardly death."
Really have to disagree there. It was planned for some time and considered. And the current USA laws are really messed up about euthanasia. If someone wants to die there should be legal options.
Really have to disagree there. It was planned for some time and considered. And the current USA laws are really messed up about euthanasia. If someone wants to die there should be legal options.
19
Cowardly or intensely personal?I don't believe that anyone has the right to chose life or death for another person. The family that wasn't told certainly has the right to be angry with the deceased for not letting them say good bye or try to talk her out of her plans, but ultimately her life is her life, as is any responsibility for her manner of death.
4
I'd be interested to know why you judge her death "cowardly"--or why you feel obliged to judge her decision at all.
5
Both writers might want to think about the difference between being asked for the truth, and unloading their own feelings.
118
The two cases are different, as are the motives of the writers. In the first case, the writer is trying to address an injustice: the knee jerk assumption that combat related PTSD is the cause of any violent crime committed by a former soldier. He wants to educate, not to unburden himself. In the second case, the grieving writer appears crushed by feelings of unwarranted but excruciating guilt and finding the burden of secrecy intolerable. This poor soul is looking for relief by telling the truth, but note that he is not thinking only of himself but is worried about harming other relatives. Both writers are worthy of sympathy.
6
Thank you - I could not agree more -
" I have been angered to see the loose connections that the media (and Internet comments) are making between this tragedy and his service and deployment. "
And -
"But the burden of this knowledge weighs heavily on me, and I feel a deep sadness and sense of guilt..."
While there certainly may be ethical questions regarding both those scenarios - neither of the letter-writers has addressed any of them --
" I have been angered to see the loose connections that the media (and Internet comments) are making between this tragedy and his service and deployment. "
And -
"But the burden of this knowledge weighs heavily on me, and I feel a deep sadness and sense of guilt..."
While there certainly may be ethical questions regarding both those scenarios - neither of the letter-writers has addressed any of them --
2
I too, consider that the ethical questions presented are clouded by the emotional freight in both letters. Both letters engendered my feelings first, and intellect second.
I strongly agree with the others who urged the second letter-writer not to tell the family. Having a suicide in a family or among close friends puts the idea in survivors' heads that suicide is a possibility, even that it's a rational choice. When life gets hard--and it always gets hard--the idea that life is too hard for some people and that suicide offers a way out is a huge burden. I would wait until way after the grandson's life seems to be stable and he seems less vulnerable.
I also wanted to add that the letter-writer's mother was lucky to have such a thoughtful, devoted daughter, and that the rest of the family is lucky as well.
I also wanted to add that the letter-writer's mother was lucky to have such a thoughtful, devoted daughter, and that the rest of the family is lucky as well.
60
Yes there is no rush to tell your relatives about your Mom's taking her own life. My wife's father killed himself following his first and only surgery which resulted in a long and unsatisfactory recovery for him. However, lifelong she recalls him always saying that he would kill himself before becoming a burden to his family. She's fine with it but we never told our daughter. Her grandmother (my wife's mother) committed suicide slowly by drinking herself to death. This, on top of her grandfather killing himself "because I have come to believe I have a serious illness" is just too much and too close to home. Maybe someday we will tell her, maybe not.
4
Agreed. And should we really categorize this as a "SUICIDE" in capital letters if the mother was very elderly and suffering from the mounting and relentless toll of her physical symptoms? Seems like something altogether different to me.
2
Suicide can be a rational choice. I knew a man who killed himself (with pills) who suffered with incurable congenital heart disease. Before killed himself, he had gone as far as traveling to other countries to see specialists, who he thought might be able to help him, to no avail. He left a note saying " I love life, but not this life...."
4
The timetable of events in the mother's death muddies the waters. How long after confiding the suicide plan did the letter writer's mother die? She states she called every morning. Was it for a week or a year? The longer the amount of time the more likely an accidental drug overdose occurred. Especially given the mother's frail health. If there is ANY doubt about the intent, I feel the letter writer can feel good keeping her hypothesis to herself.
27
Regarding the "military murder/suicide", the writer seems sincerely conflicted himself as to what part the, albeit non-combat, deployments may have played. I agree with Kwame's observation that jumping into a media dialogue is probably not going to be productive. But the questioner sounds like a good, introspective agree with Kwame's observation that jumping into a media dialogue is probably not going to be productive. But the questioner sounds like a good, introspective writer who really wants to say something. I think he might well find himself writing a worthwhile essay on his own service, triggered by this awful incident.
While a dialogue with the media would be fruitful, an ultimately public dialogue with himself could be valuable to wide range of potential readers.
While a dialogue with the media would be fruitful, an ultimately public dialogue with himself could be valuable to wide range of potential readers.
9
I'm really glad to read that other commenters have already flagged the strangely flat reaction to the fact that this friend MURDERED HIS WIFE.
Hell, yes, tell the truth. Don't let this get buried as PTSD if it wasn't.
Hell, yes, tell the truth. Don't let this get buried as PTSD if it wasn't.
103
"While he was deployed, he never saw any action, never fired his weapon; I was with him on every convoy." Not sure what "never saw action" means. If he was deployed, armed, and in a convoy, seems to imply that something could have happened at any time -- which can be stressful in itself. The fact the writer handled the situation differently does not mean his comrade's stress did not exist.
25
Have you ever served in the military?
1
For the second LW, I'm in agreement with SS below.
Do NOT tell your family that your mother took her life.
My brother took his life last year, so I can understand how devastated you are, truly I can. There is nothing to be gained by spreading the pain you feel among her grandchildren, especially a mentally fragile nephew.
Your mother was very ill and decided to end her own suffering. Try to remember that she is not suffering any more. As hard as it may be to believe right now, eventually you WILL reach the point where you can remember her without guilt, but with love and compassion intact.
Do NOT tell your family that your mother took her life.
My brother took his life last year, so I can understand how devastated you are, truly I can. There is nothing to be gained by spreading the pain you feel among her grandchildren, especially a mentally fragile nephew.
Your mother was very ill and decided to end her own suffering. Try to remember that she is not suffering any more. As hard as it may be to believe right now, eventually you WILL reach the point where you can remember her without guilt, but with love and compassion intact.
77
I agree with you whole heartedly. The LW might ease her sorrow by speaking of her mother's death to a therapist or friend, but to generally broadcast her conclusions is very selfish, and serves no good. I feel for her and her mom, but hope she is extremely selective in choosing whether to confide this theory of her mom's death.
4
Bear it.
If your nephew came to an untimely end you could never forgive yourself.
Family secrets always spread.
Always at the worst times.
Unless you open up the book is closed, so let it be so.
If your nephew came to an untimely end you could never forgive yourself.
Family secrets always spread.
Always at the worst times.
Unless you open up the book is closed, so let it be so.
68
I agree with Lawrence. Bear it. I will add: if you need to talk about it for the sake of your own sanity, find a therapist and tell her/him.
4
It is also possible that the depression experienced by the letter-writer's mother is an inherited susceptibility. I would wait a long time before telling the young grandson of her suicide, because he might be in the vulnerable years of adolescence and early adulthood. My opinion is that it is better to spend happy times with the (step)grandchildren, and let them know in 10 years or so, when their own lives should be more stable.
58
An inherited susceptibility? To suicide? Please cite evidence. You won't because you can't.
7
Do you have evidence that such susceptibility is not inherited? It doesn't seem unreasonable that one's susceptibility to suicide at is in part inherited. There are plenty of other factors, of course, but genes play a role in everything.
6
Depression is heritable.
A first step would be to use language that more accurately represents events. “Recently, a friend with whom I served in Iraq took his own life and that of his wife” is a tortured reversal of of what actually happened.
The friend murdered his wife, and then killed himself. I am sorry for your loss. This is a tragedy, and open discussion of any factors that could be involved is essential.
I believe that it’s entirely ethical to bring any information you have to that discussion. I agree that you should feel free to participate; I hope doing so can bring you some peace, and help prevent similar tragedies in the future.
The friend murdered his wife, and then killed himself. I am sorry for your loss. This is a tragedy, and open discussion of any factors that could be involved is essential.
I believe that it’s entirely ethical to bring any information you have to that discussion. I agree that you should feel free to participate; I hope doing so can bring you some peace, and help prevent similar tragedies in the future.
127
Right, because we must be as crude and brutal as possible in all cases. I'm sure characterizing it like you suggest to the family and others will bring them much peace.
8
So murder isn't crude and brutal? I am betting the woman's family certainly characterizes it as a murder-suicide...The guy could have taken himself out, no need to take someone else out with him - that's murder.
10
The issue is not being crude and brutal for brutality's sake, but recognizing that the friend was a murderer who killed a person he had promised to love and care for. We don't generally suggest that we shouldn't call a murderer a murderer because his family's feelings might be hurt. Even if he did commit suicide afterwards.
8
Is everyone going to completely ignore the "and that of his wife" part of the first letter, thrown in there like an afterthought and never addressed again? I mean, it's all nice that we are talking with such sympathy about the murderer who killed his wife (and let's be straight - 99 times out of 100 with these guys it's kill the wife and the kids to make her pay for threatening to leave a bad or abusive situation, then kill yourself to avoid having to face consequences) -- but I did notice that there is an innocent, non-murdering human being dead in all of this.
But it's just a woman, so what-evs. Not like we should pay attention to domestic violence as a major predisposing factor for people who commit murders, murder-suicides and mass murders. Not when there's a wounded warrior narrative around that makes them seem sympathetic.
But it's just a woman, so what-evs. Not like we should pay attention to domestic violence as a major predisposing factor for people who commit murders, murder-suicides and mass murders. Not when there's a wounded warrior narrative around that makes them seem sympathetic.
264
That struck me as horribly cruel, too - not just for the friend, but for this column's writer to shrug off the murder of the woman as if it was nothing. Veterans get away with too much, especially this guy who apparently hasn't even seen any action. So he was depressed - fine, he's free to do with his own life whatever he wants. But the moment he takes another life, he becomes a murderer, and needs to be addressed and dealt with as such.
138
This is a comment that I wish I could recommend one hundred times.
49
The facts of this case, and particularly the murder, are horrifying. But the letter writer is asking whether he should comment on media accounts of these events, given that he served with the individual in question. I don't think that he or Appiah are brushing aside the question of domestic violence. In fact, rather than excusing the ex-soldier's actions, the letter writer raises questions about the public's perception of the "wounded warrior" syndrome.
16
I'm usually in favor of full disclosure about family matters, but I urge the writer not to inform the rest of the family about her mother's suicide due to the troubled relative. There are copycat suicides and others believe the notion that suicide is somehow "hereditary." If someone were already troubled and looking for signs from the universe, learning that Grandma ended her life might be the deciding factor.
The late great Spalding Gray was absolutely haunted by his mother's suicide, referring to it in his work over the years. When faced with his own depression due to serious injuries after an accident...he went off the Staten Island ferry and into the water.
Suicidal parents, please don't set this example for your kids. They might see it as their fate.
The writer should find a way of unburdening herself that will not burden susceptible family members.
The late great Spalding Gray was absolutely haunted by his mother's suicide, referring to it in his work over the years. When faced with his own depression due to serious injuries after an accident...he went off the Staten Island ferry and into the water.
Suicidal parents, please don't set this example for your kids. They might see it as their fate.
The writer should find a way of unburdening herself that will not burden susceptible family members.
128
Anyone who thinks "full disclosure is always best" should read Ibsen's "The Wild Duck".
25
Full disclosure is not always best. Period.
6
My mother in law was a wonderful person who suffered from anxiety and depression. A number of her family members did as well, and three of them committed suicide. After the last death of a niece who was much younger she was quite distraught. She attempted suicide, but was found, taken to the hospital and recovered. She lived another 20 years, most of them relatively happy.
Each of those suicides put her in a tail spin, and she made mention of them for the rest of her life.
We don't know how old the grandson and step-granddaughter are, but I think that the writer should allow quite some time to pass before she tells them, if she ever does. I can't see what purpose would be served, especially if the grandson is emotionally fragile. The writer's mother took her life when she was elderly and could no longer tolerate the stress of her aging.
A question the writer might ask herself is whether her mother would want her to disclose her unhappy choice? Since her mother only disclosed her plans to this daughter it would appear that she did not want to burden other family members with it.
Each of those suicides put her in a tail spin, and she made mention of them for the rest of her life.
We don't know how old the grandson and step-granddaughter are, but I think that the writer should allow quite some time to pass before she tells them, if she ever does. I can't see what purpose would be served, especially if the grandson is emotionally fragile. The writer's mother took her life when she was elderly and could no longer tolerate the stress of her aging.
A question the writer might ask herself is whether her mother would want her to disclose her unhappy choice? Since her mother only disclosed her plans to this daughter it would appear that she did not want to burden other family members with it.
4
Case #1: You have no way of ever knowing why your friend did what he did. Honor the friendship you had; let everything else go. You can't "fix" anything and should not try.
Case #2: Honor the trust your mother had in you and do not burden anyone else with her pain. She went with dignity as she desired to do. You were a good daughter to her in life; continue to be so now.