Can't Francis go "full Donald" on these cardinals and bishops and just fire them? The hierarchy cannot stand between the people in the pews and their pope. Francis should make them all priests again, and send them back our amongst the flock. And he should bring in some new blood to help him get the Church back on it's foundations. And some of them should be abbesses and nuns - the folks who are down there in the weeds doing Christ's work on a daily basis. Francis needs to knot up some cords and drive these guys out of the temple. Seriously!
2
The headline says it all.
What liberals need to wrap their heads around is that the Catholic Church is not a major political party in the U.S., nor is it run as a popularity contest. It isn't run as a democracy. There is no direct voting by its constituents. It isn't a social club, run for your entertainment. It was, and, still is, an older religious order which offers those who belong to it a set of methods which the Catholic authorities believe will help their members make progress in the Christian spiritual world, a world many liberals don't believe in.
If you don't like its views and don't believe in what it is offering, quit, or never join it in the first place. You are free to belong to any church of your choosing, or no church at all. But to say the Catholic Church is an anachronistic, outdated, sexist organization rife with perverted sexual views is only to state the obvious, and to hope it becomes something you want to join. This isn't going to happen, and you should look elsewhere for your social, political and religious satisfactions.
2
As I recall, Jesus of Nazareth preached compassion, forgiveness, love, mercy, and peace. I am quite sure that neither he nor any of his would have conditioned the sacrament of marriage on a mistake-free background.
Love is messy. Judgment is affected, anger is sometimes felt, great joy is experienced, but human emotions shift. Couples grow together and apart and together again, people face fears and worries and stress and, sometimes, their bond is not strong enough to survive.
If communion is a statement of God's love and forgiveness, then surely His son would disapprove of a church doctrine that withholds it only because male, celibate, never-married clerics cannot understand the nature of human emotion, the unpredictability of human behavior, and the nature of human relationships.
Love is messy. Judgment is affected, anger is sometimes felt, great joy is experienced, but human emotions shift. Couples grow together and apart and together again, people face fears and worries and stress and, sometimes, their bond is not strong enough to survive.
If communion is a statement of God's love and forgiveness, then surely His son would disapprove of a church doctrine that withholds it only because male, celibate, never-married clerics cannot understand the nature of human emotion, the unpredictability of human behavior, and the nature of human relationships.
9
I find it astonishing that a church so bedeviled by it's own long running sex abuse scandal can so cavalierly decide who should receive communion and who should not. The hypocrisy with which the church treats its own LGBT members is breathtaking. If anything positive comes from this synod, I will be surprised.
4
The Rule of Holes: When you find yourself in a hole, stop digging.
The Catholic Church has rendered itself irrelevant. The greatest problem facing this world is overpopulation. Any secular or sectarian entity that demonizes, in and of itself, abortion and contraception, has lost the right to be included in any discussion on the future of this planet.
This year is 2016 CE. The Republican Party thinks it is 1948 CE. The Catholic Church thinks it is 47 CE. They need to wake up and either join the effort for survival - or get out of the way. If they haven't anything better to offer than damnation and demonization, then they are worse than useless.
And, isn't it odd, that of those two named groups, that neither of them has 20 children hanging on their suitcoat tails or their skirts?
Beware any man who dictates that a woman have 20 children, when he, himself has less than 4.... or zero!, and expects a pat on the back for that!
The Catholic Church has rendered itself irrelevant. The greatest problem facing this world is overpopulation. Any secular or sectarian entity that demonizes, in and of itself, abortion and contraception, has lost the right to be included in any discussion on the future of this planet.
This year is 2016 CE. The Republican Party thinks it is 1948 CE. The Catholic Church thinks it is 47 CE. They need to wake up and either join the effort for survival - or get out of the way. If they haven't anything better to offer than damnation and demonization, then they are worse than useless.
And, isn't it odd, that of those two named groups, that neither of them has 20 children hanging on their suitcoat tails or their skirts?
Beware any man who dictates that a woman have 20 children, when he, himself has less than 4.... or zero!, and expects a pat on the back for that!
3
I take a look at the Italian papers in my never ending attempt to learn some of the language. In attempting to decipher today's article about the Vatican I managed to figure out that there seems to be an attempt to undermine the Pope's authority by those opposed to perceived changes he might make. Along with "the smoke of Satan" emanating from behind Vatican walls, there was a mention made of behavior that was snakelike, or serpentine. I expressed surprise to a friend of mine that you would find the word "serpeggiare" in an article about the Vatican. His reply was to wonder why I would be surprised since it all began with a snake.
1
As to how binding the Synod proclamations may be will be up to the Pope.
Likewise, the proclamations of Vatican II had to be accepted by the Pope
before they were promulgated as teachings/dogmas of the Catholic Church.
Jesus is very strict in the Gospels about Divorce and the purpose of Marriage.
Though we are all sinners and fall short of the glory of God is it "false compassion" to tell sinners that their sins are not sins ?
There is a difference between those who were divorced by their spouses
but had wished to continue the marriage and those who just walked away
from their marriage.
Perhaps the Synod will adapt Church teachings to help those who sought to
remain in the marriage but were abandoned by their spouses. Their desire
to marry a second time is only natural and so in due time may be blessed
by the Church.
Likewise, the proclamations of Vatican II had to be accepted by the Pope
before they were promulgated as teachings/dogmas of the Catholic Church.
Jesus is very strict in the Gospels about Divorce and the purpose of Marriage.
Though we are all sinners and fall short of the glory of God is it "false compassion" to tell sinners that their sins are not sins ?
There is a difference between those who were divorced by their spouses
but had wished to continue the marriage and those who just walked away
from their marriage.
Perhaps the Synod will adapt Church teachings to help those who sought to
remain in the marriage but were abandoned by their spouses. Their desire
to marry a second time is only natural and so in due time may be blessed
by the Church.
1
Please explain how the "natural desire" to spend one's remaining time on Earth with a spouse, in love and companionship can be conditional? It would seem to me that natural (God given, if you will) instincts are not judges who weigh the facts and circumstances before deciding whether or not they would like to apply to any given person; they are, in your own words, NATURAL desires/instincts bestowed upon ALL humans at their creation without precondition.
I have never really understood why any mature adult would grant complete strangers the right to dictate how that adult should live. Specifically, who to marry, whether to have children, what to believe, what to eat, how to deal with life's myriad vicissitudes, and most of all, how to contemplate the endless complexity and wonder of the natural universe. Surely there are many worthwhile points of view on all these issues which one could consider, if so inclined. Asking another person for advice is one thing. Granting that person the authority to run your life is quite another.
So it's nice that some presumably well-meaning and thoughtful person in Rome is thinking about how he would run the world, if it were up to him. But of course, it's not, and never has been.
So it's nice that some presumably well-meaning and thoughtful person in Rome is thinking about how he would run the world, if it were up to him. But of course, it's not, and never has been.
4
Let's expand Catholicism to people who don't believe in God! Also, why not people from ISIS? Otherwise, we are being exclusionary and might hurt someone's feelings.
2
I know firsthand the feelings one has for being excommunicated from the church. I being divorced and remarried, trying to live by the teaching of the church, but unable to receive the sacraments.
Before my son's wedding, I stopped by my local catholic church and spoke to the parish priest. I wanted to find out if I would be ever dammed to hell if I received communion at the wedding. This priest, told me that it was totally up to me to decide. No one but me will answer for my mistakes when I die.
Half of the laws that make us catholic were started by men of the church eons ago. The laws were not forbidden by God, but by man!
As long as the Ten Commandments are kept, there is no higher law. You can call adultery if you are divorced, one of the ten commandments, it does not make it so.
I remarried in the Lutheran Church. I still practice being a good christian. I'll always be catholic, although I do not go to church.
I and only I will stand in judgement before God. I will receive communion when I wish and where I wish to celebrate. Bishops, you are not fully tending you flock, if you remain in the past with man made laws. There are many who would come back to the church if you would only ask us back.
Before my son's wedding, I stopped by my local catholic church and spoke to the parish priest. I wanted to find out if I would be ever dammed to hell if I received communion at the wedding. This priest, told me that it was totally up to me to decide. No one but me will answer for my mistakes when I die.
Half of the laws that make us catholic were started by men of the church eons ago. The laws were not forbidden by God, but by man!
As long as the Ten Commandments are kept, there is no higher law. You can call adultery if you are divorced, one of the ten commandments, it does not make it so.
I remarried in the Lutheran Church. I still practice being a good christian. I'll always be catholic, although I do not go to church.
I and only I will stand in judgement before God. I will receive communion when I wish and where I wish to celebrate. Bishops, you are not fully tending you flock, if you remain in the past with man made laws. There are many who would come back to the church if you would only ask us back.
3
"The synod can make recommendations, but unlike the three-year Second Vatican Council, it cannot make decisions. That power lies with the pope." Inaccurate. Even the acts of an Ecumenical Council are invalid if not recognized by the Roman Pontiff. From the Catechism (880-884): "The Lord made Simon alone, whom he named Peter, the "rock" of his Church. He gave him the keys of his Church and instituted him shepherd of the whole flock. . .The Pope, Bishop of Rome and Peter's successor, "is the perpetual and visible source and foundation of the unity both of the bishops and of the whole company of the faithful." "For the Roman Pontiff, by reason of his office as Vicar of Christ, and as pastor of the entire Church has full, supreme, and universal power over the whole Church, a power which he can always exercise unhindered." "The college or body of bishops has no authority unless united with the Roman Pontiff, Peter's successor, as its head." As such, this college has "supreme and full authority over the universal Church; but this power cannot be exercised without the agreement of the Roman Pontiff." "The college of bishops exercises power over the universal Church in a solemn manner in an ecumenical council." But "there never is an ecumenical council which is not confirmed or at least recognized as such by Peter's successor."
Remember the Holy Roman Catholic Church was originally organized by a emperor of Rome when he realized it offered a way to control a large segment of his citizens. The church was a political organization, the popes continued this and became a threat to the governments due to their getting involved in the taking of land, money and power. it has been a political - corportation forr many years and the executive board does not want to let the "workers' into the management.
Would Jesus even consider being a member? Hang in there Pope Francis and try to right the sinking ship.
Would Jesus even consider being a member? Hang in there Pope Francis and try to right the sinking ship.
4
The Life and Future of the Roman Catholic Church hangs in the balance and desperately needs to come into the 21st century's moral reality. The Church can no longer cast aside divorced Catholics condemning them to Protestant Churches and expect parishes to survive as more Churches and Catholic schools are closing due to diminished attendance.
Regardless of doctrine, the Roman Catholic church does not have a monopoly on Christianity as witnessed by the continued growth of Protestant Churches. A second problem is the crushing loss of Priests and candidates for the Priesthood.
Pope Francis is our only hope in bringing back mercy, faith, and loving acceptance to the Roman Catholic Church, as was taught by our Savior, Jesus Christ!
Regardless of doctrine, the Roman Catholic church does not have a monopoly on Christianity as witnessed by the continued growth of Protestant Churches. A second problem is the crushing loss of Priests and candidates for the Priesthood.
Pope Francis is our only hope in bringing back mercy, faith, and loving acceptance to the Roman Catholic Church, as was taught by our Savior, Jesus Christ!
1
This Pope has attained an almost mythic status, owing at first to his kindness to the poor, and now, to his modern attitudes that would bring the Church into the 21st century.
The foundations of Canonical Law--the Old Testament, written by many authors; and interpretations of the New Testament, which have, over time, been used to attain power, need to be re-examined in a modern light.
The Bible, and the Canon, were written by people--fallible people--with egos, their own opinions and beliefs. For Cardinals, Bishops, Pastors, Imams, Rabbis, Priests and other religious leaders to presume they know the mind of god is mere philosophy and conjecture.
Beliefs are subjective, and, however strong, can be incorrect, as they have evolved in the heads of human beings.
The Bishops critical of this Pope have their own agendas. They may justify their reasons through religious text, but their interpretations are still subjective, and in modern times, not relevant--unless Bishops are trying to cling to their power with scary religious law.
As Christianity is supposed to be a belief system of kindness and inclusion, it holds that all are covered by Christ's benevolent umbrella. As to final judgements, those are solely between god and each individual, if one believes in one god.
Obeying secular laws is mandatory. Following Church law is not--it is between the believer and god. The Catholic Church, and all belief systems, need to bring their rules current.
The foundations of Canonical Law--the Old Testament, written by many authors; and interpretations of the New Testament, which have, over time, been used to attain power, need to be re-examined in a modern light.
The Bible, and the Canon, were written by people--fallible people--with egos, their own opinions and beliefs. For Cardinals, Bishops, Pastors, Imams, Rabbis, Priests and other religious leaders to presume they know the mind of god is mere philosophy and conjecture.
Beliefs are subjective, and, however strong, can be incorrect, as they have evolved in the heads of human beings.
The Bishops critical of this Pope have their own agendas. They may justify their reasons through religious text, but their interpretations are still subjective, and in modern times, not relevant--unless Bishops are trying to cling to their power with scary religious law.
As Christianity is supposed to be a belief system of kindness and inclusion, it holds that all are covered by Christ's benevolent umbrella. As to final judgements, those are solely between god and each individual, if one believes in one god.
Obeying secular laws is mandatory. Following Church law is not--it is between the believer and god. The Catholic Church, and all belief systems, need to bring their rules current.
12
First-rate comment! Thank you; you voiced my incoherent thoughts. If the Bible says one is forgiven one's sins by belief in Jesus, then that should include all human sins, not just some. Lilou, whether you are a believer or not, I hope you are blessed!
2
Philosophically, the main problem with Christianity is its inability to decide if the God, which Christianity worships, is all-loving or some-loving. Failing to distinguish between God's will and it's will, Christianity (generally, not just Roman Catholicism) too often holds that a Christian group's ethical dogma is absolutely God's will. Ridiculous!
The hierarchy of the church sounds just like the American Congress, consisting of arch conservatives and progressives, spanning the range. It will be interesting to see whether they can be more "bi-partisan" than our legislators. No doubt there is a group of "talking heads" outside the church who will try and influence decisions and control the consensus.
2
The only people who should be discussing the family are women, not these celibate men.
11
I disagree. Both women and everyone else have a place at the table, our children are the future of all of us. Here where I live, one has to pay property tax to the school district whether or not one has children or is celibate (they don't ask).
if what you are saying is that these (celibate) men should not hold exclusive power to decide family issues, I agree wholeheartedly.
if what you are saying is that these (celibate) men should not hold exclusive power to decide family issues, I agree wholeheartedly.
1
"The most pressing issue the bishops have grappled with at the synod is whether to offer communion to Catholics who have divorced and remarried without getting annulments from the church. The church teaches that they are adulterers, living in sin."
You assemble 270 of the highest ranking members of the Catholic church from around the world and the most pressing issue is who gets a sip of wine and a cracker? Modern day fiddlers...
I can only hope this is a warm up to a future synod that might tackle topics a bit more substantive like how the church plays a substantial role in the fight to reverse global climate change or reverse it's position on birth control.
You assemble 270 of the highest ranking members of the Catholic church from around the world and the most pressing issue is who gets a sip of wine and a cracker? Modern day fiddlers...
I can only hope this is a warm up to a future synod that might tackle topics a bit more substantive like how the church plays a substantial role in the fight to reverse global climate change or reverse it's position on birth control.
5
I believe this Pope understands how lacking the current Church hierarchy is in terms of moral authority and how that might be rectified. He is a threat to the fundamentalists who would rather exclude to protect their power than minister to the flock.
How these fundamentalist Bishops can claim any righteousness after (still) failing to address the pedophilia in their own bishoprics is both stunning and the height of hypocrisy. May this Pope have the ability to foster necessary change in the face of the extremists in the Catholic Church.
How these fundamentalist Bishops can claim any righteousness after (still) failing to address the pedophilia in their own bishoprics is both stunning and the height of hypocrisy. May this Pope have the ability to foster necessary change in the face of the extremists in the Catholic Church.
2
Pope Francis has the unquestioned love and support of the 1 Billion Catholics around the world. That there are Traditionalists that would love to control everything as in the Pre-Vatican 2 era, is hardly surprising. That they represent a fading minority is also hardly surprising. Francis represents the future of the Catholic Church; they represent the past. Jesus slammed the hypocrites of the Jewish religious leaders of His day as being obsessed with rituals and rules; who completely failed in leading the people to GOD. It would seem certain Prince`s of the Church have failed to recognize that it is the heart of the People that matter most; not religious dogma!!
4
You're post is highly ironic in that the hypocrites of Jesus's day actually advocated for divorce. It was the Pharisees who tested Jesus on divorce and it was Christ who retorted: "And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery" (Mark 10:12).
Also, you are dead wrong about the future of the Church. It is the traditional orders within the RCC that are bursting with vocation. The orders that still live within the "Spirit of Vatican 2" are literally dying off. Especially amongst the youth, the Church is swinging back to its roots.
Also, you are dead wrong about the future of the Church. It is the traditional orders within the RCC that are bursting with vocation. The orders that still live within the "Spirit of Vatican 2" are literally dying off. Especially amongst the youth, the Church is swinging back to its roots.
2
It is no surprise that the reactionary forces are African and Eastern European, places where, witches, voodoo and curses are still believed in. Perhaps they should join with the GOP and create a new religion ala Savonarola. Poor fools, as JFK said, Those who make peaceful revolution impossible make violent revolution inevitable. Choose your poison guys.
3
I see another massive break-up coming to the Catholic Church. I say good, let it blow to high heaven, and let the pieces fall where they may.
The Church was build on old, evil, dark energy (and has nothing to do with Jesus). Maybe, if the whole thing blows, something good and loving can rise from the ashes. And if not, no big loss.
The Church was build on old, evil, dark energy (and has nothing to do with Jesus). Maybe, if the whole thing blows, something good and loving can rise from the ashes. And if not, no big loss.
2
When you say "the Second Vatican Council which brought the Church into the modern era" I assume you mean the 16th century.
3
For similar synodal machinations, look to the fourth century Arian controversy. As to Francis and his crew of progressives, to paraphrase St. Jerome, "The Church woke up one day and groaned to find itself Protestant."
2
It is not lacking in compassion to witness for the beauty and goodness of creation and the fact that marriage and love are a great mystery which has allowed society to be formed and the human race to prosper and survive.
The gospel is very clear in this witness, as is the book of Genesis. Our whole culture is built on this foundational insight.
I greatly respect the Catholic Church for its witness to this truth in the modern age.
The pastoral question of how to interpret this fundamental insight is one of coming to a consensus of how to treat people who have fallen short of the gospel commandment and creating a practical balance between openness to human fallibility and openness to a great mystery that informs and greatly enriches all human existence.
The gospel is very clear in this witness, as is the book of Genesis. Our whole culture is built on this foundational insight.
I greatly respect the Catholic Church for its witness to this truth in the modern age.
The pastoral question of how to interpret this fundamental insight is one of coming to a consensus of how to treat people who have fallen short of the gospel commandment and creating a practical balance between openness to human fallibility and openness to a great mystery that informs and greatly enriches all human existence.
3
Enough with this guy.....he hates capitalism, while swimming in the vast wealth of the catholic church
2
Things would be so much easier for the Pope and the Bishops if they just read the New Testament. The Bible is clear on all these 'issues'. The Church is supposed to be a light on a hill that draws people to its truth. Is NOT suppose to be a social club that bends its beliefs to the society around it. This is a time where strength is required and where God is worshiped in spirit and truth. Will they hear the voice of God?
3
"Things would be so much easier for the Pope and the Bishops if they just read the New Testament. The Bible is clear on all these 'issues'. "
The Bible is clear, huh? Is that why there are close to 4000 Protestant sects? Some clarity!
The Bible is clear, huh? Is that why there are close to 4000 Protestant sects? Some clarity!
2
"Come unto me all ye who are heavy laden, and I will refresh you."
According to the Bible, this was the foundation of Jesus' invitation to follow Him. Christianity is about including everyone in the House of God. The Roman Catholic Church is lost in its own ego.
According to the Bible, this was the foundation of Jesus' invitation to follow Him. Christianity is about including everyone in the House of God. The Roman Catholic Church is lost in its own ego.
1
Equating support for equality for gays to "Nazi-Fascism and Communism" is incredibly offensive, but not surprising from the right wing of the Catholic Church or the right wing of anything else. Unlike Hitler, Mussolini, and Stalin, homosexuals have never committed genocide against those who are different from or denounce them. Instead the are victimized.
If the synod fathers insist on pursuing the conservative path rather than supporting the pope's inclusiveness, I foresee the largest exodus from Catholicism since the Reformation.
If the synod fathers insist on pursuing the conservative path rather than supporting the pope's inclusiveness, I foresee the largest exodus from Catholicism since the Reformation.
5
The American Bishops should be leading the charge in defense of Francis and his attempt to revive the Church. Mercy trumps man-made doctrine.
3
"The most pressing issue the bishops have grappled with at the synod is whether to offer communion to Catholics who have divorced and remarried without getting annulments from the church. The church teaches that they are adulterers, living in sin."
If the first marriage was not sacramentaly valid there is no adultery in the second. The failure to seek an annulment, like the remarriage outside the church, is a matter which can be forgiven and handled in different ways without changing the fundamentals. An annulment can be granted or denied in error and is important only for a church wedding. A valid marriage, unlike all other sacraments, can be created only by the love of a man and woman.
When the NY Times writers do not understand church teaching, it is hard to convey the issues under review by the synod. Much of it is about expanding the function and independence of the parish priest in the uniquely Catholic sacrament of Confession. Less reliance on bishops leads to more individualized but potentially inconsistent application of the guiding principals.
If the first marriage was not sacramentaly valid there is no adultery in the second. The failure to seek an annulment, like the remarriage outside the church, is a matter which can be forgiven and handled in different ways without changing the fundamentals. An annulment can be granted or denied in error and is important only for a church wedding. A valid marriage, unlike all other sacraments, can be created only by the love of a man and woman.
When the NY Times writers do not understand church teaching, it is hard to convey the issues under review by the synod. Much of it is about expanding the function and independence of the parish priest in the uniquely Catholic sacrament of Confession. Less reliance on bishops leads to more individualized but potentially inconsistent application of the guiding principals.
6
This is a difficult task for Pope Francis. When he welcomes everyone with open arms, that's the way a true Christian ought to behave. At the same time, ignoring the sins of adultery or divorce without STRONG legitimate reasons could promote such sinful behaviors. Loosening the church doctrine can be a slippery slope.
Still there are certain things conservatives & "liberals" ought to agree. For instance homosexuality. Some people, only a small minority are born gay. They can live like priests & nuns restraining their sexual impulses. Is it justifiable to expect that all homosexuals practice abstinence, while heterosexuals can enjoy sex to the fullest? It's not unlike saying, If you are unlucky to be born black you ought to be a salve of a white master who can sell you or rape you or beat you with impunity.
It's easy to persecute a minority by the majority, but the law doesn't allow that. So unless a homosexual rapes some one, it can't be a sin, as it is a crime as well. (There are noncriminal sins, of course) Homosexual acts between consenting adults are no greater a sin than masturbation in private. That fact ought to be made clear.
Many traditionalists frown on premarital sex, but not accumulating vast amounts of wealth in the midst of rampant poverty. Jesus said in no uncertain terms that a rich man can't go to heaven. Being rich in itself is a sin.
INDULGENCE in sex, masturbation, gluttony & wealth are sins, albeit forgivable with repentance.
Still there are certain things conservatives & "liberals" ought to agree. For instance homosexuality. Some people, only a small minority are born gay. They can live like priests & nuns restraining their sexual impulses. Is it justifiable to expect that all homosexuals practice abstinence, while heterosexuals can enjoy sex to the fullest? It's not unlike saying, If you are unlucky to be born black you ought to be a salve of a white master who can sell you or rape you or beat you with impunity.
It's easy to persecute a minority by the majority, but the law doesn't allow that. So unless a homosexual rapes some one, it can't be a sin, as it is a crime as well. (There are noncriminal sins, of course) Homosexual acts between consenting adults are no greater a sin than masturbation in private. That fact ought to be made clear.
Many traditionalists frown on premarital sex, but not accumulating vast amounts of wealth in the midst of rampant poverty. Jesus said in no uncertain terms that a rich man can't go to heaven. Being rich in itself is a sin.
INDULGENCE in sex, masturbation, gluttony & wealth are sins, albeit forgivable with repentance.
1
It is an excellent idea to keep conversation going about human relationships of every sort, isn't it?
Every one of us needs to be reminded that we are all on this crowded but lonely Planet and our time for improvement is woefully short.
Every one of us needs to be reminded that we are all on this crowded but lonely Planet and our time for improvement is woefully short.
2
Organized religion - all of them - was invented by man, not God, with the intention of manipulating the masses for the benifit of the organization.
Controlling those masses, through doctrins, "teachings," and other exclusionary tactics established a "them and us" mentality of religeous leaders vs the population. A look at history confirms this pattern since the dawn of time across all religious groups, not just the church.
So, once again, we have only ourselves to blame. Like any consumer we just have to stop buying an outdated product that is not doing anyone any good. And you know what? Eventually, they have to change the product or fire the old managers to succeed in a turn-around. Even McDonalds knows that.
Controlling those masses, through doctrins, "teachings," and other exclusionary tactics established a "them and us" mentality of religeous leaders vs the population. A look at history confirms this pattern since the dawn of time across all religious groups, not just the church.
So, once again, we have only ourselves to blame. Like any consumer we just have to stop buying an outdated product that is not doing anyone any good. And you know what? Eventually, they have to change the product or fire the old managers to succeed in a turn-around. Even McDonalds knows that.
4
A "look at history" confirms no such pattern whatsoever. What you are calling "organized religion" is a special type of institution that like all social institutions are formed by every civilized society. Homo sapiens are the only species capable of forming institutions and if I were a religious person, I'd have to recognize that organized religion is therefore God-given.
Institutional life is what differentiate us from savages. One need not look at history but at current events to find out what happens when social institutions collapse.
Bully for the Pope for trying to renew an institution to make it more pliable and effective in facing the social reality of today! It's tough in an age when the comfortably affluent, sated by a plethora of consumer goods, believe themselves free of the constraints of institutional life and society. Perhaps they should try emigrating to Somalia and find what it's really like.
Institutional life is what differentiate us from savages. One need not look at history but at current events to find out what happens when social institutions collapse.
Bully for the Pope for trying to renew an institution to make it more pliable and effective in facing the social reality of today! It's tough in an age when the comfortably affluent, sated by a plethora of consumer goods, believe themselves free of the constraints of institutional life and society. Perhaps they should try emigrating to Somalia and find what it's really like.
There's really no way the Church can get itself out of the corner it's painted itself into. Its raison d'etre - really the core of all revealed supernatural religion, but especially the Church - is its claim to offer timeless and unchanging truths: 'We're right, we've always been right, we always will be right." An island of calm reassurance in a tumultuous world. The drawback is that even a minor walking-back of dogma causes cognitive dissonance, disillusionment, and schisms. (You'd be surprised how many Boomer ex-Catholics say their falling away began when they were told they could now eat meat on Fridays.) And because, although theologians have filled entire libraries with (dubious) logic, ultimately revealed religion boils down to 'because we say God said so,' which doesn't play as well with an educated flock. It is telling that the loudest protests come from the Third World, from countries that have no traditions of the Enlightenment, science, universal education, or indoor plumbing.
18
Man + Woman = Life. God's plan. No need to compromise.
3
Pretty sure Jesus said marriage was for those too weak to be celibate and devote their love entirely to God. Isn't marriage already a compromise, then?
1
I'm sorry in what century were these doctrines written? The conservative faction of the church is asking their flock to remain in that century? The pope is asking for "Jubilee Year of Mercy" ... How sad those conservative priests wish to turn their back on mercy...
3
Anything a Jesus said 2000 years ago was recorded long after his death. Most of the writings are hearsay and cannot be taken as is. Face it the church is a political body geared to maintain power and wealth, not geared to the well being of its members short of them giving up their wealth to the church. Idols were long banned as false and a joke. all the church has done was to recreate the system of idol worship. Time for the church to go back to the original tenets before the split over idols and messiahs.
3
Its interesting to read the discussion. I am a life-long Catholic who learned through much personal anguish and reflection to dismiss most doctrine as nonsense. Francis, as human as the rest, indeed is a man of compassion. I respect and admire him. I fundamentally believe his is following the Holy Spirit. As for the hard line conservative Bishops, I must repeat the line of Glenda the Good to the Wicked Witch: "Be off with you...you have no power here."
8
Why I am not a Roman Catholic anymore...the Church is about itself and always has been--its properties, its doctrines, and day-to-day obsession about the level of sin (moral and venial), who's in, who's out, who's worthy, who's not, who can participate, who can't.
If the pope's visit told us nothing else, it told us that there is a spiritual hunger here and all over the world. Of course, we can quibble endlessly about all the things the Francis hasn't done to throw the church into schism. But then, the church would become, even more about itself and even less about the bigger picture which would be..um...the animating presence of God.
Francis working very hard to make the church a bigger place, a place where hatefulness, exclusion, and certainty of one's own worthiness is not possible. He is pushing open a very rusty and painted-over and swollen door.
If the pope's visit told us nothing else, it told us that there is a spiritual hunger here and all over the world. Of course, we can quibble endlessly about all the things the Francis hasn't done to throw the church into schism. But then, the church would become, even more about itself and even less about the bigger picture which would be..um...the animating presence of God.
Francis working very hard to make the church a bigger place, a place where hatefulness, exclusion, and certainty of one's own worthiness is not possible. He is pushing open a very rusty and painted-over and swollen door.
6
A liberal trying to lead recalcitrant conservatives...Boy-oh-boy! Does that have familiar ring to it or what!
4
Really? A debate about whether to welcome to communion people who are "falling short"of the conservative bishops' ideal? Doesn't sound very Christ-like to me. Exploration of faith and connection to God mark a personal journey. Why in the world would church leaders not welcome a first step by everyone? A welcome to communion should not be a political prize for the perfect--but an invitation to sinners. And the bishops themselves fall into that category. Glad I'm part of an Episcopal community that welcomes everyone, no matter their situation.
26
I, too, am a cradle Episcopalian, with a great-grandfather who was an ordained Episcopal minister. But I left this church for decades because it did not ordain females, only came back when female priests/bishops emerged. And there was a time when divorced Episcopalians were not welcome; this changed when Episcopal ministers became divorced. So the fact is that the Episcopal community did not welcome everyone, but has progressed far more quickly than the recalcitrant Catholic Church.
Agreed. As a devout agnostic I advise the bishops to be more Christ-like. And read the bible about the woman caught in adultery and about to be stoned.
"When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her."
"When they heard it, they began to go out one by one, beginning with the older ones, and He was left alone, and the woman, where she was, in the center of the court. Straightening up, Jesus said to her, "Woman, where are they? Did no one condemn you?" She said, "No one, Lord." And Jesus said, "I do not condemn you, either. Go. From now on sin no more."
"When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her."
"When they heard it, they began to go out one by one, beginning with the older ones, and He was left alone, and the woman, where she was, in the center of the court. Straightening up, Jesus said to her, "Woman, where are they? Did no one condemn you?" She said, "No one, Lord." And Jesus said, "I do not condemn you, either. Go. From now on sin no more."
The priest, nuns and deacons in my parish are too busy doing what they are supposed to do - serving the people like Jesus did - to worry about these guys in Rome discussing irrelevant doctrines. Gay families are very welcomed in my church, along with divorced, cohabiting, etc. We had our own mini-synod on family matter - to discuss issues that are relevant like poverty and how to support families - in all their forms and the priest made it clear that gays, divorced, and single people were invited. Our church would be empty if we did not include all and this is why the Pope even called this synod despite the big opposition he knew would come.
3
I think the issue here is not inclusiveness but the perception of approval.
James Joyce, as I recall, defined the Catholic Church as 'here comes everybody', and in fact the small-c adjective 'catholic' means: 'including a wide variety of things; all-embracing.' As far as I can see, Francis has not said anything that isn't compatible with Catholic teaching or with that definition. He is welcoming all to the Church, on the ground that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God; if there were no sinners in the church, the church would be empty. But he hasn't changed the teachings on abortion, marriage, homosexuality, or anything else, and liberals who expect him to will continue disappointed. The irony here is that there's really not the distance between Francis and the bishops; more a question of emphasis and approach.
James Joyce, as I recall, defined the Catholic Church as 'here comes everybody', and in fact the small-c adjective 'catholic' means: 'including a wide variety of things; all-embracing.' As far as I can see, Francis has not said anything that isn't compatible with Catholic teaching or with that definition. He is welcoming all to the Church, on the ground that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God; if there were no sinners in the church, the church would be empty. But he hasn't changed the teachings on abortion, marriage, homosexuality, or anything else, and liberals who expect him to will continue disappointed. The irony here is that there's really not the distance between Francis and the bishops; more a question of emphasis and approach.
7
You must belong to a Protestant church. Doesn't sound like it is Catholic to me.
TheBible is dynamic scholars learn more each year. You can read the Binle with an open mind or a closed mind. The result is very different. Those wth closed mind drive people away from the church. The Pope wants to grow the church. Those with closed minds want drive those who do what the think wrong from the church.
The Synod in principle and practice is hardly distinguishable from the United States Congress.
Marvelous headline.
Honestly, these guys should go back and read the gospels, sell all they have (well, not quite all) and give to the poor, and stop judging others lest they be judged themselves.
How they think exclusion and protection of prerogatives come from Jesus is anybody's guess.
That celibate men are weak about women and self-indulgent about insider perversion but judgmental about others' sexuality says a lot about their lack of self-knowledge.
And it is hard, in the modern world, to think that with an exploding population and degrading environment that birth control is wrong. It degrades and undermines so much good that could be done, especially the fabulous Laudato Si.
How they think exclusion and protection of prerogatives come from Jesus is anybody's guess.
That celibate men are weak about women and self-indulgent about insider perversion but judgmental about others' sexuality says a lot about their lack of self-knowledge.
And it is hard, in the modern world, to think that with an exploding population and degrading environment that birth control is wrong. It degrades and undermines so much good that could be done, especially the fabulous Laudato Si.
3
Why do we hear so much "news" about the pope and the catholic church? STOP. Their religious maneuverings belongs in their places of worship and homes, not in OUR faces all the time.
1
The Church is feeling the stress of the same trends that are pulling people to the right that are prevalent across the globe, fighting modernity and the society that results. Some clergy are trying to work with the reality they have, and to keep teachings of the Church relevant and at the forefront, and some are trying to undo modern life, or hold it back.
The Pope is a realist. He is working to tend to the society by recognizing the effect of modern ills, and finding ways to relieve the suffering and allow people to fully participate. His model is the Good Shepherd model - bring back the lost sheep. Hence, the Year of Mercy.
The fundamentalists don't want the modern influences to change the way the Church has to operate, and is looking to wall themselves off, and keep only the purest. They are acting in a fundamentally non-Catholic way. Catholicism has always been open to all, especially the sinners.
In a nation that has a political rift a continent wide between people who want to turn back time to a simpler age, and people who don't, the conversations at the Synod shouldn't be too hard to comprehend.
The Pope is a realist. He is working to tend to the society by recognizing the effect of modern ills, and finding ways to relieve the suffering and allow people to fully participate. His model is the Good Shepherd model - bring back the lost sheep. Hence, the Year of Mercy.
The fundamentalists don't want the modern influences to change the way the Church has to operate, and is looking to wall themselves off, and keep only the purest. They are acting in a fundamentally non-Catholic way. Catholicism has always been open to all, especially the sinners.
In a nation that has a political rift a continent wide between people who want to turn back time to a simpler age, and people who don't, the conversations at the Synod shouldn't be too hard to comprehend.
16
The doors of the church should be open non-judgmentally to all as God's love is open to all unconditionally. However the message should be unequivocal and Biblical. Love conquers all.
It is one's relationship with Jesus Christ that matters, not what the Catholic Church decides to forgive. Altering the rules isn't going to save anyone.
This reminds me of Paul's discussion with church elders on the issue of circumcision. The mechanics of religion doesn't make one righteous. Since we are all sinners, it is the realization of this and relationship with Jesus that is key. Again, not a church's "Rules".
This reminds me of Paul's discussion with church elders on the issue of circumcision. The mechanics of religion doesn't make one righteous. Since we are all sinners, it is the realization of this and relationship with Jesus that is key. Again, not a church's "Rules".
3
The German church wants to be "inclusive" because excluding gays and the remarried is costing them dearly in terms of the "church tax" that the government collects for them, based on membership. If African countries had this "church tax", their churches might suddenly come to believe in "mercy", too.
Editor’s note: This comment has been anonymized in accordance with applicable law(s).
2
Those prelates appointed during the John Paul II/Benedict XVI papacy have been chosen because of their willingness to exclude people rather than include them. No wonder they resent Pope Francis' moves toward a more merciful and inclusive church, instead of maintaining a doctrinally rigid and cruel one.
Doctrine without Mercy (which I call the heresy of doctrinolatry or doctrine worship, or consider to be the incurable and dangerous disease of doctrinophilia) will cause the entire church to tumble apart like a house of cards, as Francis correctly pointed out during his important interview with Fr. Antonio Spadaro SJ early in his pontificate.
A merciless doctrine, by its very nature, does not care about humans and human experience. In its desire to be "pure" and force people to be "pure" or otherwise get lost (literally, not only theologically) it ceases to be Christian and should therefore be avoided by the People of God. Which is what they do already.
Doctrine without Mercy (which I call the heresy of doctrinolatry or doctrine worship, or consider to be the incurable and dangerous disease of doctrinophilia) will cause the entire church to tumble apart like a house of cards, as Francis correctly pointed out during his important interview with Fr. Antonio Spadaro SJ early in his pontificate.
A merciless doctrine, by its very nature, does not care about humans and human experience. In its desire to be "pure" and force people to be "pure" or otherwise get lost (literally, not only theologically) it ceases to be Christian and should therefore be avoided by the People of God. Which is what they do already.
1
“That I can’t understand because church history is living tradition,” not something static, Cardinal Marx said. “We are not a castle to be defended, surrounded by enemies.”
Really? Then why Jesus's words to Peter, " You are Peter and on this Rock I will build my church and THE GATES OF HELL WILL NOT PREVAIL AGAINST IT" It seems pretty clear that the Church has always been surrounded by jackals of one kind or another. Even within they are found.
Really? Then why Jesus's words to Peter, " You are Peter and on this Rock I will build my church and THE GATES OF HELL WILL NOT PREVAIL AGAINST IT" It seems pretty clear that the Church has always been surrounded by jackals of one kind or another. Even within they are found.
4
I get the snarl but can't find the Jesus in what you write.
The Rock is the teachings of Jesus, the New Covenant. One must understand the completeness of the teaching "Your sins are forgiven, go and sin no more."
"The Catholic Ideal of family" was developed by unmarried men who never raised children and has continued to be maintained by unmarried men who never raised children. It is both patriarchal and hierarchical where the man was the breadwinner, and the woman took care of the home ,and produced as many children as her body could tolerate. Nothing was shared equally: not resources or decision making. If the woman and/or children were abused, that was just their lot in life. I am struck by the absence of any discussion of artificial means of birth control which has simply become a tacit and complicit fait accompli. Priests, bishops, and cardinals have bowed to the inevitable. In the developed world (and to a lesser extent the developing word) both partners for the most part work outside the home, share decision making and plan their families. Women no longer are at the mercy of abusive men and men and women recognize that they are not condemned to stay in marriages that have broken down. So the conservatives can smugly stay in their comfort zones of maintaining doctrine while those in the real world either follow their consciences and partake of the full life of the church, or go elsewhere to be welcomed into religious environments that celebrate their participation.
4
Catholic doctrine now is to be based on a popularity contest and the Pope is reduced to a democratic poll gatherer. Progress, indeed.
2
The Times has published an opinion piece by John W. O'Malley before; maybe it's time for another. Can I also suggest the Irish Jesuit Gerry O'Hanlon, who has been advocating for the governance model that Pope Francis is starting to implement from way back when there wasn't a Pope Francis: (http://bit.ly/1ZZK3c6), (http://bit.ly/1OKkw2M), and (http://bit.ly/1jCAEH2).
I think that the New York Times has a genuine obligation to give Op-Ed space to more balanced voices on these issues, given the size of Ross Douthat's bully pulpit for fanning the flames of Catholic fundamentalism. His glib, lightly informed tone reminds me of frat boys I'm happy to no longer know.
There is a real question of historical memory at stake in "Pope Francis’ Plans for Inclusiveness" and it can't be touched by a summary of the Synod's present melodrama. I am not a theologian, but it seems clear to me that what is occurring is a shift toward a more horizontal, democratic governance structure that involves both the intent of Vatican II and the long history of the Church. A major philosophical and administrative shift in direction is not easy for any large organization to undertake, and never fast. In fact, it will probably require a long time to take effect. But this beginning initiated so coherently by Pope Francis can be understood as potentially historic and truly meaningful if we're provided with the right kind of background to understand it.
I think that the New York Times has a genuine obligation to give Op-Ed space to more balanced voices on these issues, given the size of Ross Douthat's bully pulpit for fanning the flames of Catholic fundamentalism. His glib, lightly informed tone reminds me of frat boys I'm happy to no longer know.
There is a real question of historical memory at stake in "Pope Francis’ Plans for Inclusiveness" and it can't be touched by a summary of the Synod's present melodrama. I am not a theologian, but it seems clear to me that what is occurring is a shift toward a more horizontal, democratic governance structure that involves both the intent of Vatican II and the long history of the Church. A major philosophical and administrative shift in direction is not easy for any large organization to undertake, and never fast. In fact, it will probably require a long time to take effect. But this beginning initiated so coherently by Pope Francis can be understood as potentially historic and truly meaningful if we're provided with the right kind of background to understand it.
8
Maybe one way to look at this is to ask, if Christ came today rather than 2000 years ago would he have had a different tone to his message. Obviously, he would not act as if he were living in a world of 2000 years ago when problems and issues were very much different than they are today. Some things remain the same, however, but the message about them might well have been different.
If Christ came back today here's what I think would happen. He would say that the place that comes closest to fulfilling his message is Scandinavia. No hunger, no homelessness, no grinding poverty, equality of men and women.
"But they don't worship you!" some would protest.
And he would just laugh.
"But they don't worship you!" some would protest.
And he would just laugh.
LET FREEDOM RING as cast on the Liberty Bell by the founding fathers of the USA was a statement of a guiding principle. Unbeknownst to some, it was borrowed from the Hebrew scriptures, "Let freedom ring throughout the land and to its inhabitants."
Sounds like an inclusive statement. Some might view it as a commandment. No exceptions are made. The ancient Hebrews had many pardons during Jubilee years, some say, including land to its original owner, canceling loans and freeing of servants.
But if the bishops of the Catholic church choose to exclude large numbers of their flock for sins the Pope wishes to pardon, it poses a complex question. Is it the role of the pope to lead and the hierarchy follow? We shall see.
Sounds like an inclusive statement. Some might view it as a commandment. No exceptions are made. The ancient Hebrews had many pardons during Jubilee years, some say, including land to its original owner, canceling loans and freeing of servants.
But if the bishops of the Catholic church choose to exclude large numbers of their flock for sins the Pope wishes to pardon, it poses a complex question. Is it the role of the pope to lead and the hierarchy follow? We shall see.
1
There is no place in the modern world for a Westboro Baptist version of the Vatican. We need more like this Pope, and we don't need a single conservative priest, bishop, archbishop or cardinal.
1
Jesus called sinners to his Church. He did not exclude the publicans and prostitutes who, despite injunctions to sin no more, still continued to sin.
Francis has said we are all sinners. Membership in the Church is determined by belief, not by a freedom from sin that none can attain. It's no more complicated than that.
Francis has said we are all sinners. Membership in the Church is determined by belief, not by a freedom from sin that none can attain. It's no more complicated than that.
3
Synods; Cardinals; Bishops; etc., etc., etc.
Why does man, or wo-man, believe it has judgment, even divinely-inspired, over other men, or wo-men?
Give unto God that which is God's ... and stop being an arrogant son-of-a-Brooklyn-Bridge by trying to tell the World how to live, and where it can worship.
Why does man, or wo-man, believe it has judgment, even divinely-inspired, over other men, or wo-men?
Give unto God that which is God's ... and stop being an arrogant son-of-a-Brooklyn-Bridge by trying to tell the World how to live, and where it can worship.
1
The absolute absurdity of the "traditionalists" who oppose reform is easily understood when their insistence that Catholics who divorce are denied communion while Catholics who molest children, rob, or murder are forgiven and welcomed to receive communion. The offense of divorce is more grave in their eyes than murder? Divorce is an offense that must be a permanent irrefutable condemnation.
The other offenses are equally absurd. What the traditionalists demand is to cling to a belief that is ridiculous. The Pope hopes to reassert the role of the church is to forgive those who have made mistakes. It is not Catholic if it does not forgive mistakes equally.
The other offenses are equally absurd. What the traditionalists demand is to cling to a belief that is ridiculous. The Pope hopes to reassert the role of the church is to forgive those who have made mistakes. It is not Catholic if it does not forgive mistakes equally.
3
A truly shocking revelation of this Synod is the degree to which a rabid Catholic fundamentalism has been embedded in the hierarchical power-structure of the American church, perhaps best emblematized in duplicity of the unbearable, transparently politicized Cardinal Dolan. Off with his head.
But it is way too simplistic to suggest that the process be judged on the basis of the divorce question. This Synod has provided a global overview of the (messy) catholicism of the Catholic Church by being a genuinely open forum for debate. This is precisely what it was designed to do post-Vatican II. John Paul II had an authoritarian, monarchical style, and his too-long pontificate deliberately subverted the essentially democratizing intent of the Synod structure by turning into a pro-forma caricature of debate. But what Francis calls 'synodality' is in fact a governance form with historical legs, having been the modus operandi for the early Church. Francis' address Saturday at the 50th Anniversary Celebration of the Synod was NOT private - it was a public speech, with a live-stream and tickets, in which he delivered one of the most important, indicative addresses of his reforming pontificate. Reading the translated text (http://bit.ly/1RXZOuQ) makes it obvious that what is going on here is a major shift in direction regarding the governance structure of the Catholic Church. Pope Francis is implementing the radically de-centralizing intent of Vatican II. Watch this space.
But it is way too simplistic to suggest that the process be judged on the basis of the divorce question. This Synod has provided a global overview of the (messy) catholicism of the Catholic Church by being a genuinely open forum for debate. This is precisely what it was designed to do post-Vatican II. John Paul II had an authoritarian, monarchical style, and his too-long pontificate deliberately subverted the essentially democratizing intent of the Synod structure by turning into a pro-forma caricature of debate. But what Francis calls 'synodality' is in fact a governance form with historical legs, having been the modus operandi for the early Church. Francis' address Saturday at the 50th Anniversary Celebration of the Synod was NOT private - it was a public speech, with a live-stream and tickets, in which he delivered one of the most important, indicative addresses of his reforming pontificate. Reading the translated text (http://bit.ly/1RXZOuQ) makes it obvious that what is going on here is a major shift in direction regarding the governance structure of the Catholic Church. Pope Francis is implementing the radically de-centralizing intent of Vatican II. Watch this space.
2
As Samuel Goldwyn might say, "They are staying away in droves".
Winners are moral relativists and evangelicals. Opposites.
Branding exercise. Shunning enforced with excommunication stopped being acceptable in post-WW II US.
Venerable Bishop Sheen confronted the electronic age of the Industrial Revolution head-on in the US. A favorite quote:
"Hearing nuns' confessions is like being stoned to death with popcorn."
Hearing a few, not many, nun's preparation of children for confession was cruel and unusual punishment or abuse. One guilt ridden fourth grade girl whose father was killed in the War confessed committing adultry. Some boys would have contests to see who could make the priest blow up in the confessional.
A Marine Chaplin in the Pacific taught me three beliefs to be a Catholic:
1. There is a God.
2. Christ is God.
3. God rewards good and punishes evil.
He could say a low Mass in 10 minutes. During beach landings he said he performed Extreme Unction on two or three dying Marines a minute whose dog tags either said Catholic or no affiliation.
Vincent Miceli SJ's "Gods of Atheism" is extremely relevant today.
Religion has a role.
Winners are moral relativists and evangelicals. Opposites.
Branding exercise. Shunning enforced with excommunication stopped being acceptable in post-WW II US.
Venerable Bishop Sheen confronted the electronic age of the Industrial Revolution head-on in the US. A favorite quote:
"Hearing nuns' confessions is like being stoned to death with popcorn."
Hearing a few, not many, nun's preparation of children for confession was cruel and unusual punishment or abuse. One guilt ridden fourth grade girl whose father was killed in the War confessed committing adultry. Some boys would have contests to see who could make the priest blow up in the confessional.
A Marine Chaplin in the Pacific taught me three beliefs to be a Catholic:
1. There is a God.
2. Christ is God.
3. God rewards good and punishes evil.
He could say a low Mass in 10 minutes. During beach landings he said he performed Extreme Unction on two or three dying Marines a minute whose dog tags either said Catholic or no affiliation.
Vincent Miceli SJ's "Gods of Atheism" is extremely relevant today.
Religion has a role.
3
Vatican politics, just like politics everywhere, less the women.
Good job Pope Francis to make his move in the conservative church hierarchy
I love Pope Francis. He is a man of the people.
There is an old saying that one catches more flies with honey than with vinegar, and I think the church will win and help more souls with forgiveness and inclusiveness than with fire and brimstone judgmental preaching.
For myself, I think that I would respond better to being included and loved and taught than to being told I was an unworthy failure not fit for the church.
There is an old saying that one catches more flies with honey than with vinegar, and I think the church will win and help more souls with forgiveness and inclusiveness than with fire and brimstone judgmental preaching.
For myself, I think that I would respond better to being included and loved and taught than to being told I was an unworthy failure not fit for the church.
28
You are right. But the problem here - which will continue to be a problem for liberals within the Church and without - is that the Church offers forgiveness with repentance and reform. It does not say you're OK as you are and can just go on doing whatever you were doing. It prescribes behavioural norms and requires adherence to them in any voluntary act - which is what any ethical system, including those not supernaturally based, will do.
Jesus told the woman taken in adultery to go and sin no more. Similarly, the Church is in the position, as long as it holds to the dogma that homosexual acts (as opposed to desires) are 'intrinsically disordered', to require a life of chastity from LGBT parishioners. It says, in effect, you can't help what you feel, but you can help what you do. Which is how you would approach any other 'sin'.
Do I agree with the above? No. I'm pro-choice and gay. But if, for the sake of argument, you concede the Church's teaching on abortion and homosexuality, Francis' approach is standard Catholicism: your Father in heaven is like your earth father - He still loves you even if you misbehave; but that doesn't mean he wants you to continue misbehaving.
Jesus told the woman taken in adultery to go and sin no more. Similarly, the Church is in the position, as long as it holds to the dogma that homosexual acts (as opposed to desires) are 'intrinsically disordered', to require a life of chastity from LGBT parishioners. It says, in effect, you can't help what you feel, but you can help what you do. Which is how you would approach any other 'sin'.
Do I agree with the above? No. I'm pro-choice and gay. But if, for the sake of argument, you concede the Church's teaching on abortion and homosexuality, Francis' approach is standard Catholicism: your Father in heaven is like your earth father - He still loves you even if you misbehave; but that doesn't mean he wants you to continue misbehaving.
1
It is revealing that an intelligent person like Cardinal Wuerl of Washington can say openly that what he is hearing Pope Francis say and the style in which he says it is so different than Dolan or DiNardo. From reading information on this synod of bishops from other reliable news sites like the NYT, I sense that one legacy of John Paul 2 remains. That is, "no change! No matter what, no change. Keep things just as I like them."
I think Pope Francis is committed to the process of collegiality. Sure, he can make the decision, whatever it might be, on his own. Just as his predecessors have done. But he wants ongoing dialogue so, in the end - even three synods to the future - there can be some agreement on how to treat the children of God who are not perfect.
I think Pope Francis is committed to the process of collegiality. Sure, he can make the decision, whatever it might be, on his own. Just as his predecessors have done. But he wants ongoing dialogue so, in the end - even three synods to the future - there can be some agreement on how to treat the children of God who are not perfect.
"The pope is terrorizing the hierarchs"...yet another proof the he is actually leaning towards more popular tenets; he said being a Marxist (Karl that is) is not an insult, and it looks like he is sticking to his guns notwithstanding.
1
As far as I am concerned these proposed changes are too little to late. As a child I was witness to the hypocrisy the RC church on the subject of marrage because my widowed mother married my Lutherin Father and so was banned from communion because my father would not convert.
Observing this institutional hypocrisy over the years when combined with a logical mind and a love of science and history quickly brought me to the conclusion the religion is human superstition and that the existence of a deity and an afterlife are myths used to manipulate the masses.
In my opinion the conservative English speaking bishops and other conservative Catholics are fighting a loosing battle to save an outmoded and deeply misguided and corrupt institution.
Francis may be working for some small social reforms in the church but they appear inadiqute to me in the face of the fallacies, hypocrisy and superstition that the human institution known as the RC Church is based on.
Observing this institutional hypocrisy over the years when combined with a logical mind and a love of science and history quickly brought me to the conclusion the religion is human superstition and that the existence of a deity and an afterlife are myths used to manipulate the masses.
In my opinion the conservative English speaking bishops and other conservative Catholics are fighting a loosing battle to save an outmoded and deeply misguided and corrupt institution.
Francis may be working for some small social reforms in the church but they appear inadiqute to me in the face of the fallacies, hypocrisy and superstition that the human institution known as the RC Church is based on.
The Bishops' divide between a conservative and modernized Church's view is not any more a simple discussion in this Vatican Council's rooms.
Dissident Bishops are adopting Machiavellian methods to fight Pope Francis.
Yesterday anonymous rumors were spread out to newspapers, telling that the Pope has a brain cancer.
This was afterwards denied from the Vatican speaker and from the same Japanese surgeon who visited him.
In other words anonymous Bishops are trying to put discredit on Pope Francis affirming that he is mentally hill.
Blood is not flowing yet in the Vatican's rooms as in the Machiavelli's and Pope Borgia's times, but the atmosphere is not the best and Pope Francis would better look carefully after his shoulders and might be on what he eats.
Dissident Bishops are adopting Machiavellian methods to fight Pope Francis.
Yesterday anonymous rumors were spread out to newspapers, telling that the Pope has a brain cancer.
This was afterwards denied from the Vatican speaker and from the same Japanese surgeon who visited him.
In other words anonymous Bishops are trying to put discredit on Pope Francis affirming that he is mentally hill.
Blood is not flowing yet in the Vatican's rooms as in the Machiavelli's and Pope Borgia's times, but the atmosphere is not the best and Pope Francis would better look carefully after his shoulders and might be on what he eats.
2
Those of us familiar with the annulment process see a layer of hypocrisy at work here. For the right sum of money and a well-written application, bishops in this country will annul marriages that were decades old and produced numerous children, the bishops should spend some time pondering the moral inconsistencies in this, and other processes and positions if they have any sincere interest in the decline of church membership.
1
I wonder whether Pope Francis has had a chance yet to chat with his New Jersey subordinate, who issued the following directive on September 22 to all clergy under his jurisdiction:
"Catholics must be in a marriage recognized as valid by the Church to receive Holy Communion or the other Sacraments. Non-Catholics and any Catholic who publically [sic] rejects Church teaching or discipline, either by public statements or by joining or supporting organizations which do so, are not to receive the Sacraments."
In July of 2013, the pope humbly asked, "Who am I to judge?" Looks like the answer is, "Not Archbishop Myers."
"Catholics must be in a marriage recognized as valid by the Church to receive Holy Communion or the other Sacraments. Non-Catholics and any Catholic who publically [sic] rejects Church teaching or discipline, either by public statements or by joining or supporting organizations which do so, are not to receive the Sacraments."
In July of 2013, the pope humbly asked, "Who am I to judge?" Looks like the answer is, "Not Archbishop Myers."
1
Cardinal Robert Sarah - quite a nice man, eh? And as to Dolan, I have NEVER liked him, he's a total wolf in sheep's clothing. Heaven help Pope Francis to arrive at a successful conclusion to this synod IN SPITE OF the efforts of those like the snake Dolan who would love to see it fail and who desires to maintain the status-quo, the results of which would be the continued diminishing of the influence of the RC church that Francis is attempting to stop.
1
To forgive is one of the fundamentals of Francis faith. To condemn someone, he knows is blasphemous. He believes inclusion will build a stronger faith. He maintains that we are all sinners,with no exclusions. What part of his leadership is in conflict with the cardinals? Let the cardinals answer who they would deny faith to? Where do I mail my letters to them?
Not sure why you even relay the gossip... if it's not directly from a trusted source it's not worth mentioning.
Pope Francis carries with him incredible moral authority and I would not be so quick as some bishops and pundits to dismiss his leadership.
Pope Francis carries with him incredible moral authority and I would not be so quick as some bishops and pundits to dismiss his leadership.
3
All I can say is: Team Francis!
And a big fat raspberry to all those bishops and politicians who were gung-ho on papal infallibility as long as that papal infallibility was directed at bullying gays and women. Now that the message is one of love (um, kind of like Jesus is said to have preached) they backtrack on the pope's authority.
And a big fat raspberry to all those bishops and politicians who were gung-ho on papal infallibility as long as that papal infallibility was directed at bullying gays and women. Now that the message is one of love (um, kind of like Jesus is said to have preached) they backtrack on the pope's authority.
2
The Catholic church founded by Lord Jesus on St.Peter the rock is in this world so that man could be delivered from sin and be acceptable for eternity with God. The church always welcomes sinners and the purpose of the synod is to extend the mercy of the Lord for people embroiled in the complicated situations in life in today's world without compromising on the Lord's teaching.
Having said this, it is a very good sign that the Pope has declared the coming year as the year of Mercy so that people can turn to God through the sacraments of the church. Irrespective of conservatives or progressives everyone welcomes the return of a sinner to the church as the father who welcomed his prodigal son in the gospel.
The church's stand on the issues under debate will remain the same except to welcome all those who are humble to repent on their sins and return to the faith. Any compromise on these issue will undermine the family which is the basic unit of life in the world.
The decisions by the Catholic church are always based on an eternal perspective for which each and every human in this world is destined. Hence it may be difficult for some people to grasp them initially but will understand them when they make a genuine and humble effort to believe in the Lord and His Church.
Having said this, it is a very good sign that the Pope has declared the coming year as the year of Mercy so that people can turn to God through the sacraments of the church. Irrespective of conservatives or progressives everyone welcomes the return of a sinner to the church as the father who welcomed his prodigal son in the gospel.
The church's stand on the issues under debate will remain the same except to welcome all those who are humble to repent on their sins and return to the faith. Any compromise on these issue will undermine the family which is the basic unit of life in the world.
The decisions by the Catholic church are always based on an eternal perspective for which each and every human in this world is destined. Hence it may be difficult for some people to grasp them initially but will understand them when they make a genuine and humble effort to believe in the Lord and His Church.
2
The church is losing members because it seems so out of touch with the realities of modern life. They speak constantly of the "ideals" of, say, marriage of which many are failing. They speak of homosexuality as a disorder and a choice to be disordered. Thus, the Eucharist is denied to those who fail in the eyes of the church. It becomes a sort of hammer to be used on those who are not perfect. It is a shame because, for all the Pope's talk of mercy it ultimately means that he wants the priests to be gentler and kinder but still use the hammer. I guess that would be the "velvet hammer".
1
The height of irrelevance to any real problem facing anyone living in the real world.
2
I really see the Pope trying to follow more closely than many the example set by Jesus that we read about in scripture. Would that many bishops could follow his example.
3
It is both tempting and too easy to denounce this collection of putatively celibate old men with such a lousy record in terms of their own sexual ethics presuming to pronounce on these questions. But the truth is that the Catholic Church exercises enormous power and the outcome of this meeting will effect the lives of millions.
The Pope's evident commitment to the poor is a good thing, but he will be continually thwarted in making the Church a real ally of the poor until he breaks down the grip the conservatives have in the Church's stance on matters of sexuality.
As a practical matter the Church's practices will have to be reformed one by one, but in order to do so it is necessary to build support for the need to make the reforms and that seems to be the intention of the synod.
My guess is that the big shifts will be on giving communion to the divorced and on priestly celibacy. Other questions will likely have to wait until the Churvh can be consolidated on these matters.
The Pope's evident commitment to the poor is a good thing, but he will be continually thwarted in making the Church a real ally of the poor until he breaks down the grip the conservatives have in the Church's stance on matters of sexuality.
As a practical matter the Church's practices will have to be reformed one by one, but in order to do so it is necessary to build support for the need to make the reforms and that seems to be the intention of the synod.
My guess is that the big shifts will be on giving communion to the divorced and on priestly celibacy. Other questions will likely have to wait until the Churvh can be consolidated on these matters.
Never been married and never had children. Therefore the most unqualified to pronounce on any of these issues.
1
A bunch of men who take vows not to have earthly intimate attachments with other humans get to decide what is sinful and what is not. Nice.
As for you Cardinal Dolan, you sir are a national disgrace! Cozy up to Pope Francis and then stab him in the back with this letter. We see you and we understand what you are all about. May the Lord be merciful to the likes of you.
As for you Cardinal Dolan, you sir are a national disgrace! Cozy up to Pope Francis and then stab him in the back with this letter. We see you and we understand what you are all about. May the Lord be merciful to the likes of you.
19
He doesn't want to be told what to do by his superior, and he wants to continue the autonomy he has so long as he is seated in his position. Simply put, Cardinal Dolan is afraid of the changes his superior wants made because he would have to re=learn how to do his job. One of those employees who doesn't adapt well to changes......
Bishops are mortal men who will be standing in line at the pearly gates, like the rest of us (according to 'doctrine'). You will spot them easily with their bigger hats.
It's the elitist mentality that Francis opposes, the arrogant belief that they, as servants of God, are authorized to judge and condemn their fellow human beings.
It's the elitist mentality that Francis opposes, the arrogant belief that they, as servants of God, are authorized to judge and condemn their fellow human beings.
11
A note to the Pope,
Perhaps, after these contentious meetings, when you sit down in the quiet and the privacy of your office, you might take into account where I am with your church. I believe my story is quite common.
Raised Catholic. Left the church at eighteen. Have always wanted to come back but many things stood in my way.
1) The abuse scandal which you are not, STILL, addressing adequately, given your defense recently of a priest in the La Plata archdiocese in Argentina who has been accused of attacking more than fifteen children. Why is he still a priest? Why is this still so common around the globe - rapist priests still in the pulpit? Why do you refuse to help protect the children? Would you have wanted to be raped as a child?
2) A divorced Catholic cannot take communion without an annulment? Why be punitive? You're going to punish, for example, a woman who divorced a man who beat her in the face? Should she have stayed with him? Where is the church's compassion?
3) The disrespect for the nuns and the lack of appreciation for their work. Do you not realize that they are the only leaders that most Catholics still trust?
4) The condemnation and exclusion of gays. How hypocritical when quite clearly much of your ranks are filled with gay men.
5) The refusal to allow women to be priests, the refusal to allow priests to marry - archaic.
6) The sexist attitude of the church where women are second class citizens.
I will come back when I see those changes.
Perhaps, after these contentious meetings, when you sit down in the quiet and the privacy of your office, you might take into account where I am with your church. I believe my story is quite common.
Raised Catholic. Left the church at eighteen. Have always wanted to come back but many things stood in my way.
1) The abuse scandal which you are not, STILL, addressing adequately, given your defense recently of a priest in the La Plata archdiocese in Argentina who has been accused of attacking more than fifteen children. Why is he still a priest? Why is this still so common around the globe - rapist priests still in the pulpit? Why do you refuse to help protect the children? Would you have wanted to be raped as a child?
2) A divorced Catholic cannot take communion without an annulment? Why be punitive? You're going to punish, for example, a woman who divorced a man who beat her in the face? Should she have stayed with him? Where is the church's compassion?
3) The disrespect for the nuns and the lack of appreciation for their work. Do you not realize that they are the only leaders that most Catholics still trust?
4) The condemnation and exclusion of gays. How hypocritical when quite clearly much of your ranks are filled with gay men.
5) The refusal to allow women to be priests, the refusal to allow priests to marry - archaic.
6) The sexist attitude of the church where women are second class citizens.
I will come back when I see those changes.
25
This is MRS. I am with you on every one of your points, but the church will not get me back because in my lifetime, the changes sought by Pope Francis will not be able to be enacted to their fullest. There is still an attitude about birth control that needs to be changed. The teachings that (i) we are given the gift of intellect; and (ii) we are given the gift of free will are the very basis for birth control's existence today -- the intellect was used to develop contraception that enables people to take care of the children they have and not add to their families those whom they cannot afford to care for adequately. That use of intellect benefitted mankind in ways we all recognize. The free will to use the benefits of that intellect should not be discouraged by a church that tells us that we have a free will and that we should use it wisely. I ask repeatedly if the church is not paying child support to those who need financial assistance, why should it discourage the use of the benefits of intellect that could prevent financial suffering? They talk out of two sides of their mouth. When that inconsistency stops, I will reconsider. Until then, I have words to say that cannot be printed.
Katie: The essence of your post is that your belief, your faith is conditional.
Beautifully stated!
To your list, I would add one item, since Catholicism tends to embrace the number seven:
7) The traditional overemphasis of all things sexual. (After all, they say what you dwell on defines your character.)
I also left the Church at age eighteen, Katie. I wonder if that number holds significance to the Vatican as well.
To your list, I would add one item, since Catholicism tends to embrace the number seven:
7) The traditional overemphasis of all things sexual. (After all, they say what you dwell on defines your character.)
I also left the Church at age eighteen, Katie. I wonder if that number holds significance to the Vatican as well.
1
I am reminded of a comment attributed to Gina Lollobrigida circulating in the late 60s. Asked what she thought of Pope Paul VI's recent pronouncements about birth control, she reportedly answered: "He no playa the game: he no makea the rules." True still.
16
When Jesus came upon a crowd that was set to stone a woman accused of adultery to death, as was the old law of Moses, they asked him what say you.
He said let the person without sin cast the first stone.
Bless Pope Francis for returning the Church to the teachings of Jesus Christ.
He said let the person without sin cast the first stone.
Bless Pope Francis for returning the Church to the teachings of Jesus Christ.
25
There is a certain NY Times columnist who, thanks to all that Pope Francis is doing, must be turning over in his grave right now ... oh wait... that person, while dour, is still very much alive and kicking and writing. May the Pope's blessings upon ALL of us find their way into his dour heart.
3
I give Pope Francis the utmost credit for trying to change the trajectory of the church. In all these debates he comes across as a humble follower of Jesus while the "conservatives" of the Catholic church come across as Pharisees, much more focused on rules (and imposing them onto others) than on love and mercy.
21
Do these myopic Bishops even ask "What would Jesus do?" Jesus never summarily rejected or looked down his nose on others. He did get the money changers out of the temple, because their actions did not belong there. But the people in question here, the divorced, the gay individuals sitting in pews...these parishioners are closer to Mary Magdalene. Pope Francis can still understanding embracing and welcoming, seeing Jesus for the Catechisms, to borrow from the saying.
8
I completely agree with your point. On a factual note, Mary Magdalene was never a prostitute. That idea is literally an anti-woman slur invented by misogynistic Church 'Fathers.'
Roncalli convoked the Second Vatican Council primarily to break the Curia. Bergoglio has the same problem. But this synod can't work the way Vatican II did; the curialists aren't out in the open the way they were at Vatican II. The most likely outcome of the synod is a flabby report that pays lip service to pastoralism but pointedly refuses to budge on any "doctrine." It will be perceived as a defeat for Francis, and hence strengthen the curialists. Who will, by the way, also be sure that every rumor about Francis' health gets lively play--anything that isolates him and gets people thinking they won't have to deal with him very long. He can go on wowing the masses and the media, like John Paul II did; meanwhile, back at the Curia, (corrupt) business as usual--which was also typical of JP II's years.
6
I am one of the tens of millions of LAPSED Catholics.
The NY Times is not “L’Osservatore Romano” and your readers are not members of Opus Dei. Please. No more front page pieces on the Magical Kingdom.
The NY Times is not “L’Osservatore Romano” and your readers are not members of Opus Dei. Please. No more front page pieces on the Magical Kingdom.
11
To the Bishops,
As a 50 year old cradle Catholic I feel an urgent need to help save you from yourselves. The reason why people don't respect or obey you has nothing to do with your horrible record during the sex abuse scandal or your rejection of modernity. You don't even get credit for taking principled stands against gay marriage or upholding the sanctity of marriage because at their core they are un-Christian.
No, the reason you are loathed and ignored is because you are today's Pharisees. You uphold the letter of the law demanding an exclusivist and judgmental Church, while ignoring its true spirit (or the maybe just the Holy Spirit) of love and forgiveness. Have you forgotten what it means to be a Christian? This pope has not. Follow the Jesus of the Gospels. See how He interacts, reaches out and loves all the people He encounters. If Jesus is too distant a figure, if St. Paul's Christ clouds your thinking, just watch how Francis loves. The term "Jesuit" was once a pejorative meaning imitator of Jesus because their dedication and piety were thought phony by their detractors. The Society turned the negative label into badge of honor. Francis embodies, personifies the best of the Society, the best of Church, the best of the Western world. Dear bishops, open your hearts if you cannot open your minds to the workings of the Holy Spirit. God is working through Francis. Or to put it another way, what is the Church without love and forgiveness? What is your raison d'etre?
As a 50 year old cradle Catholic I feel an urgent need to help save you from yourselves. The reason why people don't respect or obey you has nothing to do with your horrible record during the sex abuse scandal or your rejection of modernity. You don't even get credit for taking principled stands against gay marriage or upholding the sanctity of marriage because at their core they are un-Christian.
No, the reason you are loathed and ignored is because you are today's Pharisees. You uphold the letter of the law demanding an exclusivist and judgmental Church, while ignoring its true spirit (or the maybe just the Holy Spirit) of love and forgiveness. Have you forgotten what it means to be a Christian? This pope has not. Follow the Jesus of the Gospels. See how He interacts, reaches out and loves all the people He encounters. If Jesus is too distant a figure, if St. Paul's Christ clouds your thinking, just watch how Francis loves. The term "Jesuit" was once a pejorative meaning imitator of Jesus because their dedication and piety were thought phony by their detractors. The Society turned the negative label into badge of honor. Francis embodies, personifies the best of the Society, the best of Church, the best of the Western world. Dear bishops, open your hearts if you cannot open your minds to the workings of the Holy Spirit. God is working through Francis. Or to put it another way, what is the Church without love and forgiveness? What is your raison d'etre?
67
As a non-Catholic married to a lapsed Catholic, I find it easy to admire Pope Francis for his ethics and compassion. He is a great continuation of modern mentors from the Catholic tradition, similar to Father Thomas Merton and Dorothy Day. I also appreciate his ability to negotiate the morass of Vatican politics. I hope he is successful in establishing an inclusive stance towards all families, of all combinations and persuasions, within his Church. In the meantime, I am stunned by the harsh and vindictive opinions voiced by many bishops towards women, gays and divorced individuals.
12
1,000 times this! As a 35-year-old cradle Catholic, yes. I continue to practice the Catholic faith, and raise my children in it, because I believe in the Nicene Creed. But my family has a lot of conversations about gay people, women who have abortions, and I am a divorcee myself - with an annulment. I always emphasis empathy for people who are in these situations - no one chooses to be gay, it's how God made them; women who have had an abortion made a really hard choice and deserve compassion; you should never judge another person's marriage, you will never know what really happened in it. I hope this will help my children become truly Christian Catholics. So far, they're getting the message.
Let priests get married.
8
I am repeatedly pulled up short by the statement that in the "Jubilee year" the Pope has given permission for all priests to offer absolution to women who 'confess to having had an abortion' (a task usually reserved for bishops). Though the Pope is praised for his graciousness, what that says is that abortion has been treated as a 'sin' more heinous than murder, worse than child molestation, rape, domestic battery or any other outrage one can think of. A mother who tosses her 6 month old out the window or into a fire is not condemned as severely by the church as a woman who aborts a 6 week embryo. That's appalling.
With its rigid teaching on divorce & remarriage, homosexuality, and contraception, the Catholic church is loosing more than it is gaining in terms of drawing people to Jesus Christ. The unmarried, conservative all-male hierarchy seems not to understand or have any compassion for folks who make a poor choice (sometimes at 18, sometimes under pressure from parents or culture) or for folks who simply, over time, grow apart from the one they chose decades before, or for folks who find themselves married to someone who has changed in ways they never could have foreseen. Putting up a fence around the Lord's table is quite a remarkable judgement - it's very sad and very wrongheaded.
With its rigid teaching on divorce & remarriage, homosexuality, and contraception, the Catholic church is loosing more than it is gaining in terms of drawing people to Jesus Christ. The unmarried, conservative all-male hierarchy seems not to understand or have any compassion for folks who make a poor choice (sometimes at 18, sometimes under pressure from parents or culture) or for folks who simply, over time, grow apart from the one they chose decades before, or for folks who find themselves married to someone who has changed in ways they never could have foreseen. Putting up a fence around the Lord's table is quite a remarkable judgement - it's very sad and very wrongheaded.
72
Rigid, huh? If a divorced Catholic gets an annulment, she is then free to remarry and take Communion under even the most conservative view of doctrine. And annulment doesn't mean what it sounds like: it does not require that the marriage was never consummated, etc. Francis is in the process of making it even easier. You should inform yourself before you criticize.
Some of those priests made the poor choice of being told they would become priests and because of reasons known only to them, they chose to stay priests. My guess is because they are truly the beneficiaries of the free will donation for free housing, free food, job just handed to them, etc.
1
If these living relics, these conservative Cardinals, really want to be consistent, and emphasize how Church teaching has remained consistent from the beginning through the present, then they need to begin by repudiating the Copernican revolution - and go back to insisting that the Sun revolves around the Earth (and, of course, be laughed out of the proverbial room).
And while I'm at it, it's too bad that even Francis lacks the courage to propose that the Church cease with these dreadful re-enactments every Easter of an unfortunate judicial murder long ago, and instead begin commemorating the many victims of Catholic intolerance over the last two millennia - beginning with the judicial murder of the spiritual freethinker Giordano Bruno, and then continuing with commemorations of every other alleged witch or heretic murdered in its name, before finally moving on to a confession of how the Inquisition in Spain (with its loathsome emphasis on 'blood') helped lay the seeds for the Holocaust.
And while I'm at it, it's too bad that even Francis lacks the courage to propose that the Church cease with these dreadful re-enactments every Easter of an unfortunate judicial murder long ago, and instead begin commemorating the many victims of Catholic intolerance over the last two millennia - beginning with the judicial murder of the spiritual freethinker Giordano Bruno, and then continuing with commemorations of every other alleged witch or heretic murdered in its name, before finally moving on to a confession of how the Inquisition in Spain (with its loathsome emphasis on 'blood') helped lay the seeds for the Holocaust.
33
Wow! What a curiously imaginative reconstruction of history! Loathsome as the Inquisition was, there was no shedding of blood but burning. And Hitler had many other recent examples of intolerance and cruelty than the sanctimonious Inquisition.
3
I've yet to see a pope apologize for the many persecutions of Protestants in the 16th century. The Inquisition's persecutions of Dutch Protestants during their civil war against Spain, the murders and persecutions of French Protestants causing millions to become refugees. Its persecution of Protestants in Poland during the Counter Reformation are only a start.
1
The list of victims is very, very long. Let me add Jan Hus and William Tyndale. Tyndale was martyred by strangulation in part for his new English translation of the Bible, one that used Greek and Hebrew sources. Even language accuracy offends Rome so scientific facts and birth control let alone women's lives will always be anathema.
1
With Pope Francis pushing for a more inclusive church the Vatican is confronted with a dilemma how to deal with the disruptive onslaught of creative ideas periodically administered by the Chief priest.
4
The Vatican is indeed blessed. What better kind of dilemma could they ever hope to confront? What better opportunity to cultivate compassion, perspective, and maturity in their ranks, and then to share that spiritually uplifting opportunity with the multitudes they serve?
1
I'm a Catholic. Over the years I have grown weary and discouraged by the conservative hierarchy of the U.S. Church. Really, they have been killing the Catholic Church here in the U.S. Now there is a Pope who has the ability by the way he lives and teaches (in such a kind way) to return so many lapsed Catholics to the fold and attract new members. Yet, the U.S. Cardianls and bishops led by the rickety and doctrinaire Cardinal Dolan want to sabotage all the good that Pope Francis as done.
161
Dolan is the worst representative, fat, affluent, the friend of the rich. He is not comparable to the example of the Pope or the disciples. He is rich.
2
So, the Bishops don't want remarried Catholics to receive Communion.
Well, remarried Catholics, who want to, will receive Communion whether the
Bishops like it or not. The Bishops would rather these people leave the
Church. No problem. More people are leaving all the time.
Well, remarried Catholics, who want to, will receive Communion whether the
Bishops like it or not. The Bishops would rather these people leave the
Church. No problem. More people are leaving all the time.
88
It is quite easy to escape the surveillance of Bishops, at least those in charge of huge dioceses. The Catholic lay person simply has to switch parishes or go to communion whenever and wherever he or she likes, as millions do and have done probably for centuries. If you're a commuter, for example, you can go to Mass in the city and also in your suburb. And who's watching if you don't donate (one of the six Church rules)? The Bishops can make all sorts of pronouncements but in the end the individual Catholic operates on unsupervised conscience.
Today, world over, marriages are failing because young people are not taught the true values of marriage. Divorces happen at the drop of the hat, without the couple resorting to any meaningful dialogue. I believe, Catholics should route their divorce papers through the Church so that priests can give a try to help the spouses bury their difference. When marriages can happen in Churches, why should divorce be contested in courts straight away?
Today, the issue of gay and lesbian is gathering great momentum and Church should show the right path. Though I strongly believe it is against the dictum of God, I feel the Church should come out with a clear stand.
Most of the problems faced by people, like fear, uncertainty, confusion in life, intolerance, hatred etc. would vanish if people return to their places of worship, regularly. It is an open secret that except in Asia and Africa, attendance in Church is falling rapidly elsewhere, even during Sunday mass. It is high time people return to Church regularly.
The pope's advocacy for an “inverted pyramid” in which the pope is at the bottom in service to the “people of God”, shows why he is revered as the People's Most Friendly Pope. Hope, pope guides the faithful in all burning issues, at the earliest.
Today, the issue of gay and lesbian is gathering great momentum and Church should show the right path. Though I strongly believe it is against the dictum of God, I feel the Church should come out with a clear stand.
Most of the problems faced by people, like fear, uncertainty, confusion in life, intolerance, hatred etc. would vanish if people return to their places of worship, regularly. It is an open secret that except in Asia and Africa, attendance in Church is falling rapidly elsewhere, even during Sunday mass. It is high time people return to Church regularly.
The pope's advocacy for an “inverted pyramid” in which the pope is at the bottom in service to the “people of God”, shows why he is revered as the People's Most Friendly Pope. Hope, pope guides the faithful in all burning issues, at the earliest.
4
The dictum of God? When did God say anything about same sex marriage?
Gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgendered people are all God's children.
Same sex attraction exists in every species. It is natural, while hate and bigotry is not. That is learned from the ignorance of elders.
There is a huge difference between religion and spirituality.
Christianity based on the teachings of Jesus Christ is beautiful, full of unconditional love and no judgement.
Religion often puts weight and meaningless ritual around spiritual guidance, making it lifeless and thoughtless and callous.
Gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgendered people are all God's children.
Same sex attraction exists in every species. It is natural, while hate and bigotry is not. That is learned from the ignorance of elders.
There is a huge difference between religion and spirituality.
Christianity based on the teachings of Jesus Christ is beautiful, full of unconditional love and no judgement.
Religion often puts weight and meaningless ritual around spiritual guidance, making it lifeless and thoughtless and callous.
9
Divorce increases in direct proportion to longevity. When people live to be 80, death do us part means something very different to a population that has an average life span of 40 years. Birth control also frees women from uninterrupted pregnancy. Longevity and choice cause divorce. Choice also improves the longevity of women, so that is the real threat to the Church. Uneducated, barefoot, and pregnant is the goal of traditionalists.
The traditionalists cannot tolerate women.
The traditionalists cannot tolerate women.
2
If you had ever read even the most superficial history of the Catholic Church I believe you couldn't have written even one of the sentences you wrote here.
1
When a society has a mix of people of different religions, shaming stops working to coerce the members of any given sect.
15
Basically, the Catholic church is now debating to include laity at the altar who are doing what priests and nuns have been doing behind closed doors for centuries. What a bunch of hypocrites.
17
I love Pope Francis. He knows we are all imperfect and need God's grace and his love to manage all the complications life delivers. For those that are inclined the church can be a healing place and should be available to all who seek him whether married, single, divorced, gay, what have you. We are made in his image and Pope Francis knows we are all worthy.
35
Anything the new wonder Pope does will be merely superficial, and it will be 2,000 years too late to start to incorporate the teachings of Jesus, for the first time, into church dogma.
The Church's core teachings remain intact:
1) Women were created to serve men by having children;
2) Women are inferior to men in the eyes of God.
The Church's core teachings remain intact:
1) Women were created to serve men by having children;
2) Women are inferior to men in the eyes of God.
49
So where can I find that in Church Dogma?
2
And if, as Nature suggests, God is female, the Catholic church is just another road to hell.
1
Jon...you could not be more wrong about RCC core teachings.
Birth control, anyone? This is the 21st century.
The church's stand on birth control is highly immoral considering the suffering that the lack of it causes.
The church's stand on birth control is highly immoral considering the suffering that the lack of it causes.
137
You mean personal responsibility?
1
Right, I was looking for the text strings "birth control" or "contraception" but they didn't come up in the article. With the U.N. forecasting the population of Africa will grow to 4.3 billion in this century, would seem vastly more important than gay marriage, but I guess mentioning lifting the Catholic Church's stance against contraception is racist or something.
3
Over 90 percent of Catholics ignore the Church's teachings on contraception anyway. That ship sailed a long time ago.
1
What's easy to lose track of in these debates, and what some seem to be deliberately confusing, is the distance between offering wider forgiveness and acceptance, and acquiescing to the demands of modernity.
The Church is not considering encouraging divorce or abortion. It is looking for ways to minister to parishioners affected by these life events. It is a fundamental belief of the Church, sometimes mocked by outsiders, that everyone is a sinner, and that we therefore should not judge one another. It is hard to reconcile this belief with a system of exclusion (from Communion and from community) that applies only selectively to some of the sinful.
Such systems of exclusion belie the Church's stated beliefs, rather than enforcing them. Whether it was the intention of these systems or not, they create a dichotomy in the church between "good sinners" and "bad sinners," which is incoherent and meaningless in a Church that teaches that only God is good.
The Church is not considering encouraging divorce or abortion. It is looking for ways to minister to parishioners affected by these life events. It is a fundamental belief of the Church, sometimes mocked by outsiders, that everyone is a sinner, and that we therefore should not judge one another. It is hard to reconcile this belief with a system of exclusion (from Communion and from community) that applies only selectively to some of the sinful.
Such systems of exclusion belie the Church's stated beliefs, rather than enforcing them. Whether it was the intention of these systems or not, they create a dichotomy in the church between "good sinners" and "bad sinners," which is incoherent and meaningless in a Church that teaches that only God is good.
119
Ah, those little 'life events'....
1
When we repent for our sins, we are forgiven. But an element to repentance is a sincere vow not to sin again. It is difficult for a remarried divorcee or for a sexually active homosexual to sincerely vow not to sin again, which is the basis for the dichotomy.
The resolution is to set some efficiencies around the annulment process. Or for the divorced not to remarry.
The resolution is to set some efficiencies around the annulment process. Or for the divorced not to remarry.
1
That's a great explanation and analysis. Thanks.
1
I miss Popes John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI, this is one won't be. Pope Francis canonized Junipero Serra, a process which started before him.
2
You forget, my friend, that it actually was Francis who canonized John Paul II and OK'd the accelerated process used in the process evaluating his appropriateness for sainthood. So you have Francis to thank for your being able to pray to SAINT John Paul II.
"In one indication of their fervor, Cardinal Robert Sarah, who is from Guinea and leads the Vatican’s Congregation for Divine Worship, told the synod, “What Nazi-Fascism and Communism were in the 20th century, Western homosexual and abortion ideologies and Islamic fanaticism are today.” "
The Cardinal speaking belongs in the Middle Ages, not the modern world.
I could never pretend to understand the Catholic Church but I learned recently that chastity among the clergy was not always in effect. Imagine that. If Protestants can live with procreation as God or nature intended why not the Catholic clergy? But this is quite beyond my understanding, or as a well-known president said once, the idea is above my pay grade.
The Cardinal speaking belongs in the Middle Ages, not the modern world.
I could never pretend to understand the Catholic Church but I learned recently that chastity among the clergy was not always in effect. Imagine that. If Protestants can live with procreation as God or nature intended why not the Catholic clergy? But this is quite beyond my understanding, or as a well-known president said once, the idea is above my pay grade.
37
Sorry, I meant celibacy, not chastity or maybe both?
11
Historical references say that around the 11th century, the church made celibacy a requirement of priests. Marriage was also outlawed. It's said it was done to stop church property from passing on to their wives. In other words, it was a financial decision, in the church's favor, made centuries after the start of the religion; it was not a spiritual decision.
1
The Bishops are political Earthlings.
Jesus even loved his enemies.
The Church should be open to any and all people.
Jesus even loved his enemies.
The Church should be open to any and all people.
66
Please start reading the epistles. In no way would the aceptance of abortion or homoseuality be tolerated as a norm. Jesus acepted all ..
However all who he see Him as the redeemer of our sins repented....that means we may fail at times...but Our Lord and Savior forgives us..we confess our sins ...and each day walk away from our sinful ways.
However all who he see Him as the redeemer of our sins repented....that means we may fail at times...but Our Lord and Savior forgives us..we confess our sins ...and each day walk away from our sinful ways.
Francis' suggestion that the Church be run in the form of an inverted pyramid makes great sense. Francis is still the voice of Peter am as such has an obligation top guide the Church, but Servant leadershipndis what should be the role of all of those involved in guiding Church affairs. The priest should be a servant to his congregation finding ways to make each participants function to bed as smooth as possible. They need to teach. The priest should make it more welcoming to people seeking to return to the church after years of wandering.
Bishops should make to easier for each church to thrive by giving them enough money to make their church inviting and sod events can be held celebrating all people.
Cardinals have the same duty as Bishops, but they also have one more most important role., they need to take the voices of the people to Francis in Rome. Francis is a Jesuit. He must be a wide ranging scholar. He knows the church's history and canpn,, but he also knows the heart beat of the people. This is where all Catholics through knowledge, understanding, and God's holy grace can embrace all those around them as members of faith.. In this way servant leadership extends the hand of God''s reach to far more people that are of pure hearts, positive dispositions, and seek God's good grace.
Servant leadership works. It is beautiful thing to watch. Remember when Christ washed the feet of his apostles. There is the most poignant example
Bishops should make to easier for each church to thrive by giving them enough money to make their church inviting and sod events can be held celebrating all people.
Cardinals have the same duty as Bishops, but they also have one more most important role., they need to take the voices of the people to Francis in Rome. Francis is a Jesuit. He must be a wide ranging scholar. He knows the church's history and canpn,, but he also knows the heart beat of the people. This is where all Catholics through knowledge, understanding, and God's holy grace can embrace all those around them as members of faith.. In this way servant leadership extends the hand of God''s reach to far more people that are of pure hearts, positive dispositions, and seek God's good grace.
Servant leadership works. It is beautiful thing to watch. Remember when Christ washed the feet of his apostles. There is the most poignant example
7
Why comments for this report?
The bishops shouldn't meet? Shouldn't issue their consensus? Cardinals should stop "plotting" against their Pope?
I know how american RW catholic conservatives like Douthat are fighting the reins and ready to bolt and schism, but newswise, what is there to comment on?
The bishops shouldn't meet? Shouldn't issue their consensus? Cardinals should stop "plotting" against their Pope?
I know how american RW catholic conservatives like Douthat are fighting the reins and ready to bolt and schism, but newswise, what is there to comment on?
7
Only that it's quite entertaining to read how some try to make sense of a completely senseless institution.
1
This is why the Catholic hierarchy has made itself irrelevant. Imagine if this much energy and debate were put into solving real problems in the world and not who can and cannot receive a little wafer on Sunday mornings.
The effect anything less than full inclusiveness will have: nothing. The majority of practicing Catholics, at least in the US, will continue to do what they've always done: whatever they feel is appropriate.
The effect anything less than full inclusiveness will have: nothing. The majority of practicing Catholics, at least in the US, will continue to do what they've always done: whatever they feel is appropriate.
103
This atheist-gay newspaper never gets these things right. Try America magazine ( Jesuit Liberal Catholic Magazine) and let a person explain what you will never understand from reading this gay and atheist rag.
The US is receding in relevance every day, in every way. Neither the future of the Church, or of anything else, is here anymore.
The Church is just too big with too many leaders with opposing views. The Pope should allow a split up of the Church into many site specific subsidiaries somewhat like the split up of Ma Bell here in the US around1980. If not, this Church will die.
5
People like you have been hoping for that for nearly 2000 years, but so far it never has.
1
So do I read this correctly, that the catholic church believes that it is the church of only CERTAIN people? Maybe the rest can become Episcopalians, Methodists, or Baptists, with the fringe relegated to Unitarians (like being sent down to the minor leagues in baseball).
Perhaps the notion of a God of unconditional love is too much for Francis. . . They appear to be children of a lesser god.
Perhaps the notion of a God of unconditional love is too much for Francis. . . They appear to be children of a lesser god.
15
The swipe at Unitarian-Universalists is unnecessary.
27
Love is always conditional. No betrayal, no Adultery, no lies, otherwise it ain't love.
2
There is no such thing as unconditional love, even from God. If there were, there would be no Hell.
4
A gaggle of supposedly celibate, myth-believing, solipsistic men - and only men, some of whom protected pedophile priests - gather to discuss doctrine with regard to "Catholics who are divorced, gay, single parents or cohabiting." What could go right?
And some of these men - did I mention that they're only men? - continue to endorse the derisive term "intrinsically disordered" with regard to homosexuality. Nice!
And no mention of birth control?
It's laughable that these small-minded, clueless, anachronistic men - yes, only men! - think they're still relevant in our modern world, and are able to ably discuss these issues.
And some of these men - did I mention that they're only men? - continue to endorse the derisive term "intrinsically disordered" with regard to homosexuality. Nice!
And no mention of birth control?
It's laughable that these small-minded, clueless, anachronistic men - yes, only men! - think they're still relevant in our modern world, and are able to ably discuss these issues.
158
Exactly. They need to come to terms with human sexuality and its variances. A celibate priesthood is an illusion and it is coming upon its own demise, and with it the church.
23
They seemed relevant enough for a comment from you.
And global coverage of the synod.
And throngs everywhere Francis goes, including Congress and the UN.
It's only dime-a-dozen anti-Catholics who can't see the profound global relevance of the Church.
Actually, they see it; they just think, wishfully and futilely, that calling the Church irrelevant is enough to make it so.
And global coverage of the synod.
And throngs everywhere Francis goes, including Congress and the UN.
It's only dime-a-dozen anti-Catholics who can't see the profound global relevance of the Church.
Actually, they see it; they just think, wishfully and futilely, that calling the Church irrelevant is enough to make it so.
4
Are you asserting nonexistence of celibate priests?
I trust Pope Francis implicitly, though I know changing the direction of the church has been and will be hard. This is a Pope of compassion, a Pope true to the way in which Jesus sought to teach and in the end we will have a more compassionate church because of Francis and the change in direction will last.
59
Actually, they aren't changing anything, when you think about it. All the Pope is saying, "be a little more merciful", which is what a priest, spiritual counselor, is supposed to be. No big change.
13
Why do you trust him, Nancy?
This is a pope who continues to protect priests who rape. Look up what happened to a priest in Le Plato in Argentina. 15 child victims. Pope Francis knows about it. He has not called the police, he has not forced the priest/rapist out. The priest will continue to rape children.
In other dioceses around the world a priest is not automatically removed when credible evidence of abuse comes up. Again, why the trust?
This is a pope who does not believe in birth control, yet the planet is being over run and he acknowledges the damages of climate change. For him, it's easy to tell women to have many children. It goes along with his attitude towards women - second class. The children may starve. The women can't control their bodies. It doesn't matter to him.
This is a pope who will not allow priests to marry, he will not allow nuns a larger leadership role. He will not allow women to be priests. He is not embracing gays, but clearly many priests and bishops are gay.
He will not allow a divorced Catholic to have communion. How exclusive. How hurtful. What if she divorced because her husband beat her in the face? Now the church will penalize her for it?
Why, again, do you trust him?
This is a pope who continues to protect priests who rape. Look up what happened to a priest in Le Plato in Argentina. 15 child victims. Pope Francis knows about it. He has not called the police, he has not forced the priest/rapist out. The priest will continue to rape children.
In other dioceses around the world a priest is not automatically removed when credible evidence of abuse comes up. Again, why the trust?
This is a pope who does not believe in birth control, yet the planet is being over run and he acknowledges the damages of climate change. For him, it's easy to tell women to have many children. It goes along with his attitude towards women - second class. The children may starve. The women can't control their bodies. It doesn't matter to him.
This is a pope who will not allow priests to marry, he will not allow nuns a larger leadership role. He will not allow women to be priests. He is not embracing gays, but clearly many priests and bishops are gay.
He will not allow a divorced Catholic to have communion. How exclusive. How hurtful. What if she divorced because her husband beat her in the face? Now the church will penalize her for it?
Why, again, do you trust him?
4
In addition to what Katie says about birth control, there's the issue of protection against sexually transmitted infections, such as HPV and HIV. Willfully refusing to talk rationally about condoms is irresponsible and endangers people's health.
2
Does anyone actually pay any attention to these birds?
38
Obviously you do or you wouldn't take the time to read the article and write a comment. For people who are "irrelevant" they certainly get a lot of press...
10
Um, via Google:
'There are an estimated 1.2 billion Roman Catholics in the world, according to Vatican figures. More than 40% of the world's Catholics live in Latin America - but Africa has seen the biggest growth in Catholic congregations in recent years.'
So, yes. And considering that 'these birds' and their flocks are concentrated in the Third World - where population growth is heaviest, and not coincidentally, I think, where women's rights are a battleground issue and LGBT folks are being tortured and murdered - often with the encouragement and complicity of missionaries in the atrocities - simply to write off the leaders of the Church is not only foolish but dangerous.
'There are an estimated 1.2 billion Roman Catholics in the world, according to Vatican figures. More than 40% of the world's Catholics live in Latin America - but Africa has seen the biggest growth in Catholic congregations in recent years.'
So, yes. And considering that 'these birds' and their flocks are concentrated in the Third World - where population growth is heaviest, and not coincidentally, I think, where women's rights are a battleground issue and LGBT folks are being tortured and murdered - often with the encouragement and complicity of missionaries in the atrocities - simply to write off the leaders of the Church is not only foolish but dangerous.
2
Isn't he supposed to be infallible?
5
Only in a couple of instances has this been claimed by popes.
It is not a general principle, contrary to popular belief among non-Catholics.
It is not a general principle, contrary to popular belief among non-Catholics.
5
Only when he speaks "ex cathedral" which has occurred only twice.
6
Only on a matter of faith and morals, and when when he explicitly declares as much--i.e.: speaks ex cattedra, or on the basis of his teaching authority as the successor of Peter, to whom Christ personally and explicitly invested this authority.
This has happened only three times in the history of the Church:
1. The Assumption
2. The Immaculate Conception
3. Necessarily, the promulgation itself of the doctrine of infallibility.
This has happened only three times in the history of the Church:
1. The Assumption
2. The Immaculate Conception
3. Necessarily, the promulgation itself of the doctrine of infallibility.
1
These self-declared 'people of God' peopling the synod are all men, no women, men who have no wives, no children (none they acknowledge, anyway), are passing judgments on how families should behave? And they should be taken seriously? Really? Well, if you have to believe in virgin birth & immaculate conception (sex, again – or rather absence thereof), then sure, follow the dictates of men without families, without acknowledged sex lives, on how to run your family & sex life. Divine chutzpah.
89
Your expectations are really unrealistic. If you seek confirmation of your values look elsewhere. The world is more than big enough to accommodate both you and the Vatican.
5
The Immaculate Conception has nothing at all to do with sex. It is the belief of the Catholic Church that Mary was conceived without the stain of original sin on her soul, unlike the rest of mankind.
16
But why would any self-respecting gay person tolerate the Vatican's international political gay-bashing?
2
The controversial history of the Jesuits' including their scientific contributions and their global exploration of the world during the Age of Discovery has always been driven (when not suppressed by external and internal forces) by a system of education that fosters debate. Knowing the questions to ask is often more important than finding the answers.
It is in this spirit of seeking to find God in all things and all persons, that the Pope has embarked on his current journey of faith. Maybe the answers (if any) will not please either side of the debates. Nevertheless, the questions have now been raised and they will continue to be out there.
My prayer is that the Holy Spirit will continue to give strength to Francis to keep asking the questions.