The Palestinians stab innocent people and the NYT apologizes for the Palestinians. The Palestinians throw stones and molotov cocktails, tunnel under the desert to smuggle weapons, hide the resulting weapons in mosques, hide their fighters among the population during the intifada, preach that the Jews are inferior (that sounds familiar doesn't it?), and so on and so on, and all the NYT ever does is apologize for them. Liberals love anybody that stands up to "the man", and to heck with the Palestinians being in the wrong.
13
So I see the Times has dropped all pretense of an obligation to the truth in its pursuit of its goals.
11
@DrD.'The only "expulsion" from Jerusalem was of the ancient Jewish population, in 1948. The Arab population of Jerusalem is many times its size of 50 years ago; that's a funny result of ethnic cleansing. The only population excluded from its holy sites? The Jews, from 1948-67.'
In fact, the only entity that has increased its size many times since 50 years ago, is the state of Isreal. Illegally.
In fact, the only entity that has increased its size many times since 50 years ago, is the state of Isreal. Illegally.
5
Hi. I feel even more neglected than the Palestinians. Not only have world governments been not paying any attention to me, the NYT never bothered writing any articles about my "neglect".
Does this mean I'm justified in stabbing people?
Does this mean I'm justified in stabbing people?
10
Camp Corrondawanna writes:
"I studied under Rawls at Harvard years ago. Here is a truer version of the Rawlsian question: 'Not knowing what position you would occupy in society, would you choose, in the blind, to be dropped into Israel or into any Islamic nation?'"
I never studied under Rawls, but I did stand in the back of his classroom for a few sessions (I attended the Law School in the early Seventies), along with about 100 other Harvard students who ultimately weren't allowed to take his course (as you probably remember, he was rock-star popular after A Theory of Justice was published).
The way you pose the question is a proper way to pose it. So was the way I posed it.
"I studied under Rawls at Harvard years ago. Here is a truer version of the Rawlsian question: 'Not knowing what position you would occupy in society, would you choose, in the blind, to be dropped into Israel or into any Islamic nation?'"
I never studied under Rawls, but I did stand in the back of his classroom for a few sessions (I attended the Law School in the early Seventies), along with about 100 other Harvard students who ultimately weren't allowed to take his course (as you probably remember, he was rock-star popular after A Theory of Justice was published).
The way you pose the question is a proper way to pose it. So was the way I posed it.
3
This argument is always amusing:
"If the Palestinians want to be "treated as human beings", perhaps they should not incite their kids to stab Israelis."
How many times have Israeli supporters pointed out (correctly) that (1) Israel, not the Arabs, has won all of the wars between the two groups; and (2) historically, war-winners aren't inclined to give back territory they've won in battle (indeed, some Israeli supporters go so far as to say this has NEVER happened)?
If Israelis justify their holding of territory by pointing out that they won it in wars (i.e. through violence), are they justified to complain about some young Palestinian guy with a knife who's trying to take it back?
"If the Palestinians want to be "treated as human beings", perhaps they should not incite their kids to stab Israelis."
How many times have Israeli supporters pointed out (correctly) that (1) Israel, not the Arabs, has won all of the wars between the two groups; and (2) historically, war-winners aren't inclined to give back territory they've won in battle (indeed, some Israeli supporters go so far as to say this has NEVER happened)?
If Israelis justify their holding of territory by pointing out that they won it in wars (i.e. through violence), are they justified to complain about some young Palestinian guy with a knife who's trying to take it back?
5
1. Israel has given back territory won in battle during wars when it was attacked:
the Sinai to Egypt in 1979; large chunks of Gaza and the West Bank to Arafat and the PLO during the 1990's Olso process; southern Lebanon in 2000; the rest of Gaza in 2005. The problem is that, aside from the peace treaty with Egypt, each of these territorial concessions led to more terror and violence from the Arab side. So, what lessons do you think the majority of the Israeli public has learned?
2. If the Palestinians want to keep trying to gain territory by violence and terror, they will keep losing and continue to end up worse off after every round of violence they initiate. So yes, if they ever want to try to improve their lives (rather than just kill Jews) they better start teaching their kids that it is not the right thing to do to go out with a knife and try and kill.
Now, go think about that for a bit...
the Sinai to Egypt in 1979; large chunks of Gaza and the West Bank to Arafat and the PLO during the 1990's Olso process; southern Lebanon in 2000; the rest of Gaza in 2005. The problem is that, aside from the peace treaty with Egypt, each of these territorial concessions led to more terror and violence from the Arab side. So, what lessons do you think the majority of the Israeli public has learned?
2. If the Palestinians want to keep trying to gain territory by violence and terror, they will keep losing and continue to end up worse off after every round of violence they initiate. So yes, if they ever want to try to improve their lives (rather than just kill Jews) they better start teaching their kids that it is not the right thing to do to go out with a knife and try and kill.
Now, go think about that for a bit...
8
You've got a point. Do you agree it is applicable to Black young men in America or Natives or Hispanics trying to cross over and re-access land that was once in Mexican hands?
Just wondering if you apply the same rules you do to Israel to America.
Just wondering if you apply the same rules you do to Israel to America.
6
No one makes that argument.
Israel was attacked and had to fight back to defend themselves (therefore not a act of violence) and as a result the attacking side was defeated.
You are justifying the act of violence because the Palestinian is attempting to get his land back.
How is killing a Israeli teenager who posses no threat going to get this land back to the Palestinians.
You are encouraging children to commit war crimes that will get themselves killed.
What have you gained.
Nothing.
What have you lost.
You lose the life of your children and you give Israel the justification she needs
to keep this land forever.
Israel was attacked and had to fight back to defend themselves (therefore not a act of violence) and as a result the attacking side was defeated.
You are justifying the act of violence because the Palestinian is attempting to get his land back.
How is killing a Israeli teenager who posses no threat going to get this land back to the Palestinians.
You are encouraging children to commit war crimes that will get themselves killed.
What have you gained.
Nothing.
What have you lost.
You lose the life of your children and you give Israel the justification she needs
to keep this land forever.
8
Commenter Donna Ferry wrote that there are only "7 or 8" Jews living in Iran. Almost certainly she was understating for effect, but just as certainly she meant (and probably actually believes) that the number of Jews living in Iran is very low.
Just the opposite is true – many Jews live in Iran. According to the website of the Foundation for the Advancement of Sephardic Studies and Culture:
"Iran is home to 25,000 - some here say 35,000 - Jews."
Just the opposite is true – many Jews live in Iran. According to the website of the Foundation for the Advancement of Sephardic Studies and Culture:
"Iran is home to 25,000 - some here say 35,000 - Jews."
3
Except Thinker, in 1979 before the Islamic revolution, there were over 100,0000 Jews in Iran. And the numbers you quote are on the high end of estimates, most numbers are more in the range of 10,000 to 15,000.
Ethnic cleansing, anyone?
Ethnic cleansing, anyone?
7
"Ethnic cleansing, anyone?"
You pose this as a rhetorical question, but it's not, and you must know that this didn't occur. After the Shah was deposed, there indeed was some anti-Semitic behavior by the masses (though I've never read of any killings). But when Khomeini returned to Iran, he promptly issued a fatwa declaring that the Jews were a protected minority. That protected status worked its way into Iran's constitution, where it's been ever since.
No question, Jews (and Christians) are second-class citizens in Iran, just as Palestinians are second-class citizens in Israel. Two wrongs don't make a right, though that doesn't justify second-class status for Jews in Iran. What bothers me, though, are overstatements such as your "rhetorical" question ("Ethnic cleansing, anyone?"), and another commenter's absurd statement that there are only a handful of Jews left in Iran. There are thousands of Jews living in Iran, by choice. They could move to Israel whenever they like, but they prefer Iran.
You pose this as a rhetorical question, but it's not, and you must know that this didn't occur. After the Shah was deposed, there indeed was some anti-Semitic behavior by the masses (though I've never read of any killings). But when Khomeini returned to Iran, he promptly issued a fatwa declaring that the Jews were a protected minority. That protected status worked its way into Iran's constitution, where it's been ever since.
No question, Jews (and Christians) are second-class citizens in Iran, just as Palestinians are second-class citizens in Israel. Two wrongs don't make a right, though that doesn't justify second-class status for Jews in Iran. What bothers me, though, are overstatements such as your "rhetorical" question ("Ethnic cleansing, anyone?"), and another commenter's absurd statement that there are only a handful of Jews left in Iran. There are thousands of Jews living in Iran, by choice. They could move to Israel whenever they like, but they prefer Iran.
1
And while your thinking about Iran, Thinker, think about this. In 1948, the Jewish population of the Arab world was almost 1 million (that excludes Iran, which is Persian, not Arab). There were large Jewish communities in Egypt, Syria, Yemen, Iraq, and Arab North Africa. Today, there are virtually no Jews in any of these countries. They were driven out, or fled in the face of pogroms, economic sanctions, discrimination......
More for you to think about.
More for you to think about.
7
Please read a few hundred of the approximately 1,000 comments posted here so far, as I have.
Then consider whether there is hope for positive resolution.
If you can read the streams of fact-selective vitriol exploding from both sides and maintain hope, I am happy for you.
As for me, I am exhausted and disheartened.
Then consider whether there is hope for positive resolution.
If you can read the streams of fact-selective vitriol exploding from both sides and maintain hope, I am happy for you.
As for me, I am exhausted and disheartened.
1
JJHS,
Except, the supporters of Israel generally quote historical facts pretty accurately, while the Israel bashing crowd typically makes things up and/or omits whatever history does not fit their narrative. And, I read a whole lot more vitriol from the Israel bashing crowd than I read from the supporters of Israel.
Except, the supporters of Israel generally quote historical facts pretty accurately, while the Israel bashing crowd typically makes things up and/or omits whatever history does not fit their narrative. And, I read a whole lot more vitriol from the Israel bashing crowd than I read from the supporters of Israel.
8
It doesn't look like things are going to get better for Palestinians any time soon. Consider this sentence from a Haaretz article published a year ago (10/23/14):
"What really matters is that almost 40% of Israeli youth are willing to leave their homeland and intend to build their lives elsewhere."
I haven't checked, but it's a fair bet that most of those departing Israeli youth are of the educated, liberal, urban persuasion – not the nut-case settlers who vow never to leave Israel and who tend – to understate the point a bit – to have a lot of children.
If this continues, what will Israel's population look like in 30 years? Two groups will be left, each much larger than it is now: the nut-case settlers and their descendants, and the Palestinians. The nut-case settlers will be in control (arguably, they are already). How will life be like for the Palestinians then? Will it surprise anyone that they rebel?
A more selfish question: Will the US government continue to support that Israel of 30 years from now? Or will our government stop taking our tax dollars against our will and sending them overseas to those nut-case settlers? If we say "they'll stop then," why don't they just stop now?
"What really matters is that almost 40% of Israeli youth are willing to leave their homeland and intend to build their lives elsewhere."
I haven't checked, but it's a fair bet that most of those departing Israeli youth are of the educated, liberal, urban persuasion – not the nut-case settlers who vow never to leave Israel and who tend – to understate the point a bit – to have a lot of children.
If this continues, what will Israel's population look like in 30 years? Two groups will be left, each much larger than it is now: the nut-case settlers and their descendants, and the Palestinians. The nut-case settlers will be in control (arguably, they are already). How will life be like for the Palestinians then? Will it surprise anyone that they rebel?
A more selfish question: Will the US government continue to support that Israel of 30 years from now? Or will our government stop taking our tax dollars against our will and sending them overseas to those nut-case settlers? If we say "they'll stop then," why don't they just stop now?
3
Dream on. Israel will stay a strong nation despite your fevered fantasies. That fact is what drives our enemies, on these pages and elsewhere, artery-popping nuts. To paraphrase FDR, we welcome your contempt. Wear yourself out, but we're not going anywhere.
8
I would be very curious to learn where you found a statistic that 40% of Israeli youth are willing to leave. I would also like to see the wording of the question. I read a recent survey that 75% of Israelis love Israel.
I don't blame them. It's a great country to which I am pretty sure you, with all of your opinions, have never been.
I don't blame them. It's a great country to which I am pretty sure you, with all of your opinions, have never been.
6
With apologies to the philosopher, John Rawls, for oversimplifying his elegant opening argument in a Theory of Justice – and additional apologies to the other commenter who asked whether Israeli Jews would switch places with Israeli Arabs – what would an Israeli Jew have to say about life in Israel if that Israeli Jew didn't know, ahead of time, whether he was going to be a Jew or an Arab?
I have a hunch the answer to that question would matter a great deal to that Israeli Jew.
I have a hunch the answer to that question would matter a great deal to that Israeli Jew.
2
Thinker --
I studied under Rawls at Harvard years ago.
Here is a truer version of the Rawlsian question:
Not knowing what position you would occupy in society, would you choose, in the blind, to be dropped into Israel or into any Islamic nation?
As this article states, over 50% of Muslims polled in East Jerusalem state that they would prefer to be cituzens of Israel rather than of a Palestinian state.
I studied under Rawls at Harvard years ago.
Here is a truer version of the Rawlsian question:
Not knowing what position you would occupy in society, would you choose, in the blind, to be dropped into Israel or into any Islamic nation?
As this article states, over 50% of Muslims polled in East Jerusalem state that they would prefer to be cituzens of Israel rather than of a Palestinian state.
12
Justifying terrorism (what mlms living in palestinian areas do), never works. Israel has promoted an open society, but as with all mlm areas of the world, the mlm goal is to claim victimhood and terrorize non-mlm areas: (in this case: Israelis are better off than us). In every case, a mlm country has more babies (as they are instructed to do by...) and their culture prohibits a high intellectual pursuit (keeping women in bondage, covered, subservient). There is no melting of a sadistic 9th century cult to western society. The west are simple fools.
9
Remarks like this one always make me chuckle:
"The genocide training of Palestinian children is part of the policy."
Anyone who writes such a comment should be punished by being required to read the Jerusalem Post cover to cover for 365 days. Not sure where JP readers come from, but I'm pretty sure most of them are Israeli Jews who form their disgusting views about Palestinians from growing up in Israel and attending government-funded Israeli schools.
"The genocide training of Palestinian children is part of the policy."
Anyone who writes such a comment should be punished by being required to read the Jerusalem Post cover to cover for 365 days. Not sure where JP readers come from, but I'm pretty sure most of them are Israeli Jews who form their disgusting views about Palestinians from growing up in Israel and attending government-funded Israeli schools.
2
The one who has disgusting views is you. Your are transferring your obvious racism towards Israeli Jews to Israeli Jews. Not uncommon. It used to be the case of Christians towards Jews based on religion.
6
Um, time to remove the distortion lenses from your head.
Israeli schools teach primarily in the languages of Israel--Hebrew and Arabic.
Why would graduates read the local English paper?
Israeli schools teach primarily in the languages of Israel--Hebrew and Arabic.
Why would graduates read the local English paper?
4
If the Palestinians want to be "treated as human beings", perhaps they should not incite their kids to stab Israelis.
16
"[Israeli Arabs] are full citizens, have Israeli passports, and their own representatives in parliament."
Can't the same thing be said about Jews in Iran?
Can't the same thing be said about Jews in Iran?
3
The Jews in Iran have one and only one seat allotted to them in the Iranian parliament, whereas the Joint List can have as many Arab MKs as they can get elected. The Joint List currently has 13 MKs. The Jews of Iran cannot sue Muslims in a court of law. The Arabs of Israel can sue Jews. Need I go on? Your thinking is shallow, Thinker.
7
"The Jews of Iran cannot sue Muslims in a court of law. The Arabs of Israel can sue Jews."
Incorrect, pak. Sounds good, but entirely false. Not sure where you heard this.
And as far as the number of seats Jews can get in parliament, you're misleading on that too. Jews are guaranteed one seat -- even if only one Iranian Jew votes. Jews can elect any number of members of parliament, however – if they have the votes, of course. As we both know, there are two few Jews in Iran to elect even one representative, which means their constitutional guarantee of one member gets them more than their proportional share.
Incorrect, pak. Sounds good, but entirely false. Not sure where you heard this.
And as far as the number of seats Jews can get in parliament, you're misleading on that too. Jews are guaranteed one seat -- even if only one Iranian Jew votes. Jews can elect any number of members of parliament, however – if they have the votes, of course. As we both know, there are two few Jews in Iran to elect even one representative, which means their constitutional guarantee of one member gets them more than their proportional share.
All 7 or 8 of them?
5
Ms. Ruderen, by writing the following statement in her column distorts the entire picture of the current phase in the Arab Israeli/Palestinian conflict.
She states "East Jerusalem has been a hotbed since July 2014, when Jewish extremists kidnapped and murdered Muhammad Abu Khdeir, a 16-year-old from the Shuafat neighborhood."
Jerusalem has been a hotbed since the murder of three Israeli teenagers caused certain ultra orthodox jews to seek revenge by murdering the young palestinian boy.
Jerusalem in fact has been a hotbed since the Palestinian Authority began falsely accusing the Israelis of seeking to break the aggrement over prayer at the Temle Mount. Non Muslims are not allowed to pray at the Temple Mount. The Palestinians see prayer and start rioting whenever an orthodox jewish group appeaars even though the Israeli IDF or the Police prevent them from climbing the steps to the Temple Mount.
Ms. Ruderen further seeks to tip the argument in favor of the Palestinians when she states "Zakaria Al-Qaq, an Al Quds professor who traces his roots in Jerusalem back 1,400 years" without mentioning that Jews inhabited Jerusalem thousand of years before that.
At the end of the piece she mentions briefly that Israel offers citizenship to all Jerusalem Palestinians, but a tiny fraction apply. As for the Palestinian Authority they abandoned Jerusalem for Remallah so they could cry from a distance.
This piece is just one more slap at Israel from the anti Israel New York Times.
She states "East Jerusalem has been a hotbed since July 2014, when Jewish extremists kidnapped and murdered Muhammad Abu Khdeir, a 16-year-old from the Shuafat neighborhood."
Jerusalem has been a hotbed since the murder of three Israeli teenagers caused certain ultra orthodox jews to seek revenge by murdering the young palestinian boy.
Jerusalem in fact has been a hotbed since the Palestinian Authority began falsely accusing the Israelis of seeking to break the aggrement over prayer at the Temle Mount. Non Muslims are not allowed to pray at the Temple Mount. The Palestinians see prayer and start rioting whenever an orthodox jewish group appeaars even though the Israeli IDF or the Police prevent them from climbing the steps to the Temple Mount.
Ms. Ruderen further seeks to tip the argument in favor of the Palestinians when she states "Zakaria Al-Qaq, an Al Quds professor who traces his roots in Jerusalem back 1,400 years" without mentioning that Jews inhabited Jerusalem thousand of years before that.
At the end of the piece she mentions briefly that Israel offers citizenship to all Jerusalem Palestinians, but a tiny fraction apply. As for the Palestinian Authority they abandoned Jerusalem for Remallah so they could cry from a distance.
This piece is just one more slap at Israel from the anti Israel New York Times.
16
Netanyahu who cries out for understanding of “natural growth” of settlements though they are stuffed with new ‘ aliyahs from Brooklyn, doesn’t apparently believe in natural of Palestinian natives.
"Last week, an Israeli minister called for the destruction of all Palestinianhomes built in East Jerusalem without permits, a threat that targets nearly 40 percent of the city’s Palestinians because of restrictive zoning. Jerusalem’s gun-wielding mayor has called on Israeli civilians to carry arms. Jewish mobs chanting “Death to Arabs” have paraded through the streets.”
And this from the people who complain of anti-semitism in France forcing some not to wear yarmulkes.
"Returning from work in West Jerusalem’s kitchens, hotels and construction sites, some Palestinians seek to protect themselves by wearing yarmulkes. "
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/19/opinion/mismanaging-the-conflict-in-je...
"Last week, an Israeli minister called for the destruction of all Palestinianhomes built in East Jerusalem without permits, a threat that targets nearly 40 percent of the city’s Palestinians because of restrictive zoning. Jerusalem’s gun-wielding mayor has called on Israeli civilians to carry arms. Jewish mobs chanting “Death to Arabs” have paraded through the streets.”
And this from the people who complain of anti-semitism in France forcing some not to wear yarmulkes.
"Returning from work in West Jerusalem’s kitchens, hotels and construction sites, some Palestinians seek to protect themselves by wearing yarmulkes. "
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/19/opinion/mismanaging-the-conflict-in-je...
2
Did you read the article in the link? The most telling comment, that you don't quote, was by the Arab who said that this is all about defending Al Aqsa from the Jews. Only, it is a pack of lies promulgated by the Arab leadership that the Israeli government was considering any changes to the status quo on the Temple Mount. This has been a standard call by Arab leaders every time they wanted to stir up riots and attacks against the Jews, dating back to the 1920's (see the riots of 1929, fomented by the Mufti of Jerusalem, in which 130 Jews were murdered by Arab rioters...)
Bottom line is this is just the latest phase of a near 100 year war, a war brought on by the refusal of the Arabs to accept the right of the Jewish people to self-determination in their historic homeland of Israel, and their repeated attempts to use terror and violence to first try and block the creation of a Jewish state, and then to destroy it.
And like all previous rounds of violence initiated by the Arabs, they will end up on the losing end of this one, and will end up worse off. But that won't stop the Arabs and their supporters (the "useful idiots" in the liberal West, to paraphrase Lenin) from continuing to cry that they are innocent victims....
Bottom line is this is just the latest phase of a near 100 year war, a war brought on by the refusal of the Arabs to accept the right of the Jewish people to self-determination in their historic homeland of Israel, and their repeated attempts to use terror and violence to first try and block the creation of a Jewish state, and then to destroy it.
And like all previous rounds of violence initiated by the Arabs, they will end up on the losing end of this one, and will end up worse off. But that won't stop the Arabs and their supporters (the "useful idiots" in the liberal West, to paraphrase Lenin) from continuing to cry that they are innocent victims....
15
The problem is that Israel does not have a genuine partner in seeking peace with the Palestinians. There is noone on the Palestinian side who accepts a two-state solution. What the Palestinians want is a single Palestinian state, and they will never accept a Jrwish state of Isreal alongside Palestine. The Israelis are obviously not packing their bsgs and leaving. That is a pipe dream. The Palestinians have walked away from evety brokered opportunity for peace. If they wanted peace, and a Palestinian state alongside Israel they could have had it a longtime ago. Israel has a proven track record as a reliable partner in Peace. With two of its Arab neighbors, once bitter foes, there has been longstanding peace, with Jordan, and with Egypt. In the case of the layter, Israel gave back a land mass, the Sinai, larger than the country itself - and which has oil resources too. There is a false equivalenccy being promulgated by the media that both the Israelis and Palestinians share equal blame for the violence. This is just not true, and any objective review of history makes this obvious.
18
We unfortunately need to ask the question, at what point does an individual's or group's cause justify the taking of even one innocent life? Is terrorism ever an an acceptable response? This, like so many news stories of Middle Eastern acts of terror reveals a bias by the use of the inevitable "but" that qualifies the actions of extremists. We read that the actions of terrorists are deplorable "but" in one way or another, the victims had it coming. The Charlie Hebdo cartoonists were practicing free speech but they insulted Allah. The stabbing victims of Jerusalem were blameless of any action other then being Jewish, but the anti-Islamic actions of Prime Minister Netanyahu and his subordinates are untenable and the perpetrators were frustrated. According to most religious principals, the life of an innocent person is sacred. It would be naive to assume that modern priorities honor this tradition with the acceptable collateral damage of war as exemplified by the firebombing of Dresden or atomic bombs on Japan. I ask if this value would be shared if the reader or author lost a loved one to random slaughter. Would the "but" have the same meaning?
9
One cannot but help be sympathetic to the Palestinians who just want to get on with their lives. And of course they are frustrated by the multiple security efforts by the Israelis. But what exactly would one have the Israelis do with a people the majority of whom wish to remove, if not kill, every Jew in Israel? Do those Palestinians who are peaceful deserve better? Of course they do, but how to get there when they are embedded in a hate-filled society?
The bottom line in Israel is the same as it is in the US: the punishments for the bad are not severe enough and the rewards for the good are not generous enough. There is an ancient saying (Jewish as it turns out) to the effect that those who are kind to the cruel end up being cruel to the kind. The wisdom in that saying is exemplified every time I am inconvenienced by securitiy measures in the US and every time a Palestinian is inconvenienced (to a much greater degree of course) by security measures in Israel and the areas under Israeli control.
As for the Israelis failing to make peace, exactly how do you do that with a society that is intent on killing you, later if not right away? Palestinian leaders, even including Arafat, have made peaceful statements, but almost always in English. In Arabic they refer to the policy of "stages" whereby they pretend to seek peace, but really want only a better position from which to attack. Even in Gaza, where I lived for 5 years, there are many good people, but too few.
The bottom line in Israel is the same as it is in the US: the punishments for the bad are not severe enough and the rewards for the good are not generous enough. There is an ancient saying (Jewish as it turns out) to the effect that those who are kind to the cruel end up being cruel to the kind. The wisdom in that saying is exemplified every time I am inconvenienced by securitiy measures in the US and every time a Palestinian is inconvenienced (to a much greater degree of course) by security measures in Israel and the areas under Israeli control.
As for the Israelis failing to make peace, exactly how do you do that with a society that is intent on killing you, later if not right away? Palestinian leaders, even including Arafat, have made peaceful statements, but almost always in English. In Arabic they refer to the policy of "stages" whereby they pretend to seek peace, but really want only a better position from which to attack. Even in Gaza, where I lived for 5 years, there are many good people, but too few.
18
You make some very good observations.
I agree with you that there are many Muslims who pretend to seek peace but really don't.
This however does not mean they want to fight Israel or kill Jews.
They know they will lose and I am not of the opinion they hate Jews to the extent they want all of them dead.
They are not Nazis and they do not want to exterminate the Jews.
I do not believe the Muslim religion is evil however it has to be acknowledged
that the religion is being used by some to do evil.
There are more Muslims who hate other Muslims than there are Muslims who hate Jews.
I believe the Palestinians are being used by the Arab nations to draw attention away from the real problems in the Muslim world which is really very confusing to me as I do not understand them.
I agree with you that there are many Muslims who pretend to seek peace but really don't.
This however does not mean they want to fight Israel or kill Jews.
They know they will lose and I am not of the opinion they hate Jews to the extent they want all of them dead.
They are not Nazis and they do not want to exterminate the Jews.
I do not believe the Muslim religion is evil however it has to be acknowledged
that the religion is being used by some to do evil.
There are more Muslims who hate other Muslims than there are Muslims who hate Jews.
I believe the Palestinians are being used by the Arab nations to draw attention away from the real problems in the Muslim world which is really very confusing to me as I do not understand them.
1
I still think acts of violence hurt the Palestinian cause.
11
Any effort to control the angry mob? A couple of days ago they killed a Jewish man thinking he was an Arab.
"An Eritrean man mistaken for an attacker and shot in lower body by security personnel and then beaten severely by a mob; He is listed in serious condition.
A video shot by a bystander afterwards shows an angry mob surrounding the Eritrean man, with one kicking him with great force in the head, while others curse him and another kicks him in the head."
http://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/Suspected-terror-attack-near-...
"An Eritrean man mistaken for an attacker and shot in lower body by security personnel and then beaten severely by a mob; He is listed in serious condition.
A video shot by a bystander afterwards shows an angry mob surrounding the Eritrean man, with one kicking him with great force in the head, while others curse him and another kicks him in the head."
http://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/Suspected-terror-attack-near-...
1
It is an ancient and immutabe truth that people resent occupation and that a certain percentage of the young men will fight to the death to reverse it. Why does the US government and Israeli leadership to understand this? Pretty basic stuff.
6
"Pretty basic stuff"?
There is absolutely nothing basic or unambiguous about virtually any aspect of this situation. People on both sides of the debate would do well to acknowledge this and to stop simply lobbing conclusory statements at each other.
There is absolutely nothing basic or unambiguous about virtually any aspect of this situation. People on both sides of the debate would do well to acknowledge this and to stop simply lobbing conclusory statements at each other.
3
Hastings,
Of course there are complexities. But they can be stripped away, leaving the "basics" pretty much as Kevin describes them.
Of course there are complexities. But they can be stripped away, leaving the "basics" pretty much as Kevin describes them.
Dear thinker --
Your statements are nonspecific and therefore not helpful. What will you strip away, leaving what?
Your statements are nonspecific and therefore not helpful. What will you strip away, leaving what?
3
I happened to watch CNN on the morning a few days ago when their photographer showed a young man running down the steps in Jerusalem towards the Damascus Gate. The Israeli police told him to stop. When he didn't, they opened fire, he threw up his hands, and then fell in the plaza dead. I was transfixed. They played it again one or two more times. But subsequently the tape was edited to exclude the last, most dramatic part. The edited version was then shown, repeatedly, on CNN and on other channels.
Why was it edited? Just out of concern for our tender sensibilities--or because the American media doesn't want to show Israeli authorities killing anyone in cold blood?
Why was it edited? Just out of concern for our tender sensibilities--or because the American media doesn't want to show Israeli authorities killing anyone in cold blood?
5
In "cold blood"?
I saw the same tape, repeatedly, including the endpoint. Did you see the big knife the young man was clutching? As he ran toward the Israeli security?
Maybe that was not a convenient thing to notice.
I saw the same tape, repeatedly, including the endpoint. Did you see the big knife the young man was clutching? As he ran toward the Israeli security?
Maybe that was not a convenient thing to notice.
9
You must have ignored his attempt to commit murder with a knife he held. Who are we to judge law enforcement in another country? What would you do if your child was in this killers path? Such hypocrisy. on 9/11 the Palestinians danced in the streets with joy at our sorrow. I care little for their predicament. They make their own misery and do nothing to join the community of nations. The world doesn't another medical misogynist gay hating Christian hating freedom hating county. There are enough of those already in the Middle East.
7
You ignored my question, Elmsford: Why did CNN edit the tape?
I love reading the NYT. Assuming that the content of the articles are balanced. Is the NYT, inadvertently, inciting more violence in the last few weeks, by biased headlines on this subject?
17
“The problem is the policy," Of course it is the policy. The genocide training of Palestinian children is part of the policy.
17
A few years ago there was a movie "the Purge" starring Ethan Hawke , recently a TV series was made following the story line. One day a year all laws of civilized behavior are suspended and the citizenry are free to act out their bloodlust w/o consequences. The theory is that this letting of steam to maim and murder leads to a peaceful happy society the remaining 364 days.
The actions stemming from East Jerusalem have nothing to do with the "bubbling over with despair" by the writer. The reality is that hordes of teens, prompted by their Muslim Brotherhood Imam from the Northern Branch of the Islamic Movement in Israel is inciting and encouraging the Arab youth to protect Al Aqsa with their blood and to actively kill Jews without regard to their own lives. Abu Mazan tows the line.The Arab kids buy in so they can be glorified on Facebook so anything goes. Stab a 70 year old woman, no problem,.Run down people at a bus stop and then hack them to death with a meat cleaver, no problem. Stab a 13 year old Jewish kid riding a bike, no problem .Stab a husband to death and then the wife as she screams for help to save her life is spat on and laughed at by the innocent Arab bystanders in the Old City.
These are the same people who danced on 9/11.
This is not "despair bubbling over". This is an epidemic of Arab lust for Jewish blood. In TV terms this is like the Walking Dead or The Strain, or World War Z an army of zombie vampires out for blood. This is the reality here, not a TV show
The actions stemming from East Jerusalem have nothing to do with the "bubbling over with despair" by the writer. The reality is that hordes of teens, prompted by their Muslim Brotherhood Imam from the Northern Branch of the Islamic Movement in Israel is inciting and encouraging the Arab youth to protect Al Aqsa with their blood and to actively kill Jews without regard to their own lives. Abu Mazan tows the line.The Arab kids buy in so they can be glorified on Facebook so anything goes. Stab a 70 year old woman, no problem,.Run down people at a bus stop and then hack them to death with a meat cleaver, no problem. Stab a 13 year old Jewish kid riding a bike, no problem .Stab a husband to death and then the wife as she screams for help to save her life is spat on and laughed at by the innocent Arab bystanders in the Old City.
These are the same people who danced on 9/11.
This is not "despair bubbling over". This is an epidemic of Arab lust for Jewish blood. In TV terms this is like the Walking Dead or The Strain, or World War Z an army of zombie vampires out for blood. This is the reality here, not a TV show
20
Regarding the peace that most writers seek: it is my opinion that Israel would need to offer land and political freedom for any deal, but the Palestinians have nothing to offer except a promise to stop aggression and incitement. It is not equitable. What do the Palestinians have to offer: they seem continuously and obnoxiously hostile. Maybe, it is something beyond threats to eradicate a country coming from the people of all Arab countries. Maybe it can be something like "I respect your right to live in the middle east, I will recognize that."
13
Regarding the supposed hate of islam for jews, a starting point for the ignorant is https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_of_the_Book.
Tax, yes. Cleansing, no.
Currently Palestinians are paying an exorbinant religous tax for European sins in a european colony, the world's last.
Tax, yes. Cleansing, no.
Currently Palestinians are paying an exorbinant religous tax for European sins in a european colony, the world's last.
2
Never Again means the Jews will never again be thrown out of their ancestral homeland. It's not a difficult concept for Jews to understand, the rest of the world seems to be dyslexic concerning this matter.
In addition, what about face to face direct negotiations for peace similar to what transpired between Egypt and Jordan don't the Israeli Arabs, AKA Palestinians understand?
In addition, what about face to face direct negotiations for peace similar to what transpired between Egypt and Jordan don't the Israeli Arabs, AKA Palestinians understand?
12
I don't think the millions of Jews who fled Arab countries after 1948 because they faced death if they stayed are Europeans. Nor are the Ethiopian Jews. Or the Indian Jews. Presumably they could all stay behind if the European Jews left?
10
Dear Query /-
Speaking of the ignorant ...
Are we really supposed to take seriously your assertion that Muslims in general and Palestinians in particular do not despise and have not historically despised Jews?You know, those people descended from pigs and dogs and apes?
The Koranic religion tax is only the starting point in Muslim mistreatment of Jews, who , like Christians, are "people of the book." Yes, the people of the book are supposed to be treated better under Islam than those of other non-Islamic religions. This is not, however, a very high bar. Just ask the Yazidis, who have the misfortune of not being people of the book. Their lot, as prescribed by the Koran, is conversion by the sword or execution for the men and concubinage for the women.
Virtually 100% of the Jews who lived in various pockets in Arab lands for centuries or millennia are now gone from those lands. Either because of abuse beyond endurance or expulsion without recompense. Just after Israeli independence, at least 750,000 Jews were expelled from Arab lands. The years since have taken care of virtually all of the rest.
By the way, if you are looking to become an expert on a topic, consider digging a little deeper than Wikipedia.
Speaking of the ignorant ...
Are we really supposed to take seriously your assertion that Muslims in general and Palestinians in particular do not despise and have not historically despised Jews?You know, those people descended from pigs and dogs and apes?
The Koranic religion tax is only the starting point in Muslim mistreatment of Jews, who , like Christians, are "people of the book." Yes, the people of the book are supposed to be treated better under Islam than those of other non-Islamic religions. This is not, however, a very high bar. Just ask the Yazidis, who have the misfortune of not being people of the book. Their lot, as prescribed by the Koran, is conversion by the sword or execution for the men and concubinage for the women.
Virtually 100% of the Jews who lived in various pockets in Arab lands for centuries or millennia are now gone from those lands. Either because of abuse beyond endurance or expulsion without recompense. Just after Israeli independence, at least 750,000 Jews were expelled from Arab lands. The years since have taken care of virtually all of the rest.
By the way, if you are looking to become an expert on a topic, consider digging a little deeper than Wikipedia.
12
Ahhh, we can only wonder what the mid east would be like had the Israeli Arabs and their surrounding half dozen Arab Nation brethren won any of the half dozen major wars of annihilation they initiated against the Modern State of Israel during the last 75 years. Nor can we but wonder what would have happened had any of the hundreds of smaller skirmishes of Southern Lebanon, Gaza and Israeli Arabs against the Jews been entirely successful.
Ah, yes, entire Jerusalem, not just the Al Aska Mosque or Dome of the Rock would be under the total sovereign control of Jordan, with no Jews allowed to enter again. Gaza would belong once again to Egypt and the Golan heights would be in the control and sovereign of Assad.
Things would indeed be different.
Ah, yes, entire Jerusalem, not just the Al Aska Mosque or Dome of the Rock would be under the total sovereign control of Jordan, with no Jews allowed to enter again. Gaza would belong once again to Egypt and the Golan heights would be in the control and sovereign of Assad.
Things would indeed be different.
23
We need not wonder at all about the type of relations the Arabs would have with Israel if successful. For nearly twenty years, from 1948 to 1967, Jordan had complete control over the Old City and excluded access by Jews to the Holy Sites. Occasional pot shots were taken by snipers at Israelis who climbed to the tower of the YMHA to peer longingly into the Old City. On the Golan, kibbutzniks regularly dodged bombs lodged in their direction by Syria. There was no access to the West Bank. Jewish holy sites were desecrated, with tombstones being ripped from graves and used in construction or in paving stones. Fortunately, Israel built the ability to protect itself, a short twenty seven years after Hitler sought to eliminate the followers of that religion from the globe, forming alliances with prominent Arab leaders. 1967 put a sting on the Arab world that it continues to try to undo.
17
Entire world wants Israel to be more respectful of the Palestinians and to respect their religious monuments, and wants the Palestinians to negotiate and receive their own homeland while recognizing Israel's right to exist. Read Jimmy Carters plan for peace in the Middle East. After the bombing of Gaza, Israel's word is not taken legitimally anymore. So many women and children were killed according to former President Jimmy Carter that a peace should be accomplished by the international community giving rights to both the Israelis and the Palestinians.
Prediction that in 2017, an agreement will be reached for it will be fifty years after the 1967 war ended. The UN and the Western world now recognize the Palestinians right to sovereignty and the Israelis are fighting against the majority of the population in east Jerusalem. Historically the Romans and later the English both left, now it is time for the Israelis to come to the meeting room to hand over sovereignty to the Palestinians. Unfortunately both the Israelis and Palestinians have extremists or right wingers that always hate the challenge of reaching an agreement. Maybe both sides have leaders that both prosper when volatility occurs. In derivative terminology they are long volatility. They both love to get money from the us instead of reaching a peace agreement.
Prediction that in 2017, an agreement will be reached for it will be fifty years after the 1967 war ended. The UN and the Western world now recognize the Palestinians right to sovereignty and the Israelis are fighting against the majority of the population in east Jerusalem. Historically the Romans and later the English both left, now it is time for the Israelis to come to the meeting room to hand over sovereignty to the Palestinians. Unfortunately both the Israelis and Palestinians have extremists or right wingers that always hate the challenge of reaching an agreement. Maybe both sides have leaders that both prosper when volatility occurs. In derivative terminology they are long volatility. They both love to get money from the us instead of reaching a peace agreement.
2
Should the word of Palestinian leaders be taken seriously? You say that Israel's defensive action against Hamas in Gaza, from which Hamas was shooting missiles at Israel every day, caused Israel to lose its credibility. Please explain for us reasons why we should take seriously and find credible the positions of, for example, Hamas and the Palestinian authority?
11
The idea implicit in this article, that Palestinian inequality justifies these horrific stabbing attacks against innocent Israelis, is itself horrifying. The fact is that nothing, not the lie that Israel planned to change the status quo on the Temple Mount, or the "frustration" described in this article, justifies Arab leaders inciting children to go out on the streets of Jerusalem and murder innocent Israelis.
23
Yes, it's true – Jewish extremists did kidnap and murder Muhammad Abu Khdeir on July 2, 2014, in an unforgivable crime. But the Times omits entirely what happened right before that to provoke the Jewish terrorists: the burial of three Israeli teens on July 1, who had been kidnapped and brutally murdered by Palestinian terrorists. The three teens were Gilad Sha'er (16), Eyal Yifrah (19), and Naftali Frankel (16); Frankel held dual US and Israeli citizenship.
Even mentioning the murder of the three Israeli teens would have changed the entire complexion of the article – perhaps that's why Rudoren omitted it.
And while the murder of the Palestinian teen was unreservedly condemned by Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu and all leading Israeli politicians, the official Facebook page of the main Palestinian party Fatah celebrated the kidnappings of the Jewish teens with this despicable cartoon, showing them as captured mice
Even mentioning the murder of the three Israeli teens would have changed the entire complexion of the article – perhaps that's why Rudoren omitted it.
And while the murder of the Palestinian teen was unreservedly condemned by Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu and all leading Israeli politicians, the official Facebook page of the main Palestinian party Fatah celebrated the kidnappings of the Jewish teens with this despicable cartoon, showing them as captured mice
27
The Times hatred of Israel has become so patently obvious that even the most basic journalistic practices have been abandoned by what was once the "Newspaper of Record." For this to be presented as a "news" article is shameful.
14
@AK - As well, those who killed Muhammed are IN JAIL!
4
I find it just the opposite. the NY Times is usually very pro- Israel in fact I feel this article is the most balanced I have read on the Israel- Palestine problem in the NY Times.
false claims from Abu-Hamed:
The view from his balcony is of sprawling Jewish enclaves that he said were "built on our lands," and the ugly barrier Israel erected that splits Sur Baher from the occupied West Bank.
Of course Rudoren makes no effort to check whether the claim about "our lands" is false, like so many other Palestinian land claims. She apparently also never confronts Mr. Abu Hamed about why the "ugly barrier" was built: to protect beautiful young lives – like her own – from the scourge of Palestinian suicide bombers and terrorists.
Since September 2000, more than 1200 people were killed in Palestinian attacks against Israel, the vast majority before the security barrier was built. Both Hamas leader Moussa Abu Marzouq and Islamic Jihad leader Ramadan Abdallah Shalah admitted that what the Times calls an "ugly barrier" has made it much harder for Palestinian terrorists to carry out attacks inside Israel.
The view from his balcony is of sprawling Jewish enclaves that he said were "built on our lands," and the ugly barrier Israel erected that splits Sur Baher from the occupied West Bank.
Of course Rudoren makes no effort to check whether the claim about "our lands" is false, like so many other Palestinian land claims. She apparently also never confronts Mr. Abu Hamed about why the "ugly barrier" was built: to protect beautiful young lives – like her own – from the scourge of Palestinian suicide bombers and terrorists.
Since September 2000, more than 1200 people were killed in Palestinian attacks against Israel, the vast majority before the security barrier was built. Both Hamas leader Moussa Abu Marzouq and Islamic Jihad leader Ramadan Abdallah Shalah admitted that what the Times calls an "ugly barrier" has made it much harder for Palestinian terrorists to carry out attacks inside Israel.
20
when prominent Arabs in Jerusalem have tried to run for office, they have been subjected to threats and violence from the PLO and other groups. For example, in 1988 the well-known Arab newspaper publisher Hanna Siniora decided to run as the head of a list of Arab candidates for the city council. His candidacy did not last long, however:"arsonists torched his two cars, and his home was daubed with graffiti, warning him to discontinue his "involvement with the [Z]ionist enemy plans." this prompted Siniora to withdraw his candidacy (Justus Reid Weiner, Illegal Construction in Jerusalem : Impediments to Providing Quality Public Services in the Arab Neighborhoods of Jerusalem, p 4-5).
Similarly, the PLO has also intimidated Palestinians into not voting. For example, during the 1998 elections a poster distributed by Yasir Arafat's Fatah faction demanded that Palestinians not vote.
So whose fault is it that in Jerusalem Arabs tend to have a lower average living standard than Jews? Whose fault is it that Arabs are not elected to the city council? Whose fault is it there is a security barrier that makes it harder for Palestinian terrorists, but also innocent Palestinians, to get into Israel? Whose fault is it that as a result of the recent wave of Palestinian attacks, fewer Palestinians will receive permits to work in Israel, and will lose their relatively well-paying jobs? Whose fault is it that many of them will descend into poverty?
Similarly, the PLO has also intimidated Palestinians into not voting. For example, during the 1998 elections a poster distributed by Yasir Arafat's Fatah faction demanded that Palestinians not vote.
So whose fault is it that in Jerusalem Arabs tend to have a lower average living standard than Jews? Whose fault is it that Arabs are not elected to the city council? Whose fault is it there is a security barrier that makes it harder for Palestinian terrorists, but also innocent Palestinians, to get into Israel? Whose fault is it that as a result of the recent wave of Palestinian attacks, fewer Palestinians will receive permits to work in Israel, and will lose their relatively well-paying jobs? Whose fault is it that many of them will descend into poverty?
19
If only Muslims within Israel could be treated as well as Jews are within Muslim nations. Ooops. They were all expelled or driven out through intolerable harassment.
Actually, everyday Muslim citizens just minding their own business within Muslim nations are frequently subject to far worse treatment by their governments than are peaceful Israeli Muslims. Unfortunately, such peaceful Israeli Muslims are subject to check points and other forms of heightened security measures because of the terrorist acts of a minority. Everyone hates these protocols, including Israelis.
There is a reason why a majority of Muslim residents of East Jerusalem polled say that they would rather be a citizen of Israel than of an independent Palestinian state.
Actually, everyday Muslim citizens just minding their own business within Muslim nations are frequently subject to far worse treatment by their governments than are peaceful Israeli Muslims. Unfortunately, such peaceful Israeli Muslims are subject to check points and other forms of heightened security measures because of the terrorist acts of a minority. Everyone hates these protocols, including Israelis.
There is a reason why a majority of Muslim residents of East Jerusalem polled say that they would rather be a citizen of Israel than of an independent Palestinian state.
11
It often seems like the Jews can do no right in the eyes of the public.
The slight signs of compassion which the world showed the Jews after Holocaust have long disappeared.
It took the massacre of 6 million people to get the Jews back to the land which they were removed from 2000 years ago.
To equate the Palestinians with 1980’s South African apartheid or the horrific southern American slavery is ludicrous.
The NY Times always seems to spin their articles against the Jews regardless of whether Israel is being attacked or defending itself.
People should confront their deep seated hatred of the Jew; many of those supporting Palestinians are really using the issue to channel their inner anti-Semite.
The slight signs of compassion which the world showed the Jews after Holocaust have long disappeared.
It took the massacre of 6 million people to get the Jews back to the land which they were removed from 2000 years ago.
To equate the Palestinians with 1980’s South African apartheid or the horrific southern American slavery is ludicrous.
The NY Times always seems to spin their articles against the Jews regardless of whether Israel is being attacked or defending itself.
People should confront their deep seated hatred of the Jew; many of those supporting Palestinians are really using the issue to channel their inner anti-Semite.
28
Another article in a long list of articles about Palestinians purely from their point of view. Where are the articles about Jews from the Jewish point of view where their loved ones have gone to work or school never to be seen again by their families because they have been stabbed to death by a Palestinian? How about an article about being a Christian living a Muslim country where they have lived for many hundreds of years, told from from the Christians point of view describing the horrors perpetrated against them, or is this impossible as they all been murdered or driven from their homes by Muslims? This narrow and one sided reporting is getting old and people are catching on to it.
30
No different than our southern borders with Mexico. We, the Government leaders of the US are stupid.
MSNBC was under attack recently for airing the maps included in this segment because they demonstrate what's been happening away from the eyes of the American public.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxaM5tjFyAw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxaM5tjFyAw
3
This is a debunked map with incorrect information or outright lies.
9
The maps are entirely erroneous, totally misleading. That is why MSNBC was under attack. The history is confusing enough for the casual reader, but for a major news organization to fail in such a huge way is inexcusable.
11
No. They were under attack because this map has been demonstrated to be utter baloney.
7
Yet another Times "news" article that's nothing more than an editorial:
Zakaria Al-Qaq, an Al Quds professor who traces his roots in Jerusalem back 1,400 years, said...
Really? 1,400 years? Proof, please. This is supposedly a newspaper.
“If I say a word, they’ll accuse me of trying to stab them,” he said. “The soldier who searched me, I told him, ‘Why are you doing this?’ He said, ‘Because you are terrorists.’ ”
Really? Prove it? Any independent reports?
A couple and their two children died in a fire last year, he said, because engines are dispatched to Sur Baher from another Palestinian neighborhood rather than from the closer Jewish ones.
Really? Is there any other report supporting this?
And of course not word #1 about Jewish life in east Jerusalem when it was under Jordanian rule. Why? Oh, I guess it's because they were all evicted by the Jordanian army and every single religious site destroyed. The Western Wall was turned into a garbage dump.
Zakaria Al-Qaq, an Al Quds professor who traces his roots in Jerusalem back 1,400 years, said...
Really? 1,400 years? Proof, please. This is supposedly a newspaper.
“If I say a word, they’ll accuse me of trying to stab them,” he said. “The soldier who searched me, I told him, ‘Why are you doing this?’ He said, ‘Because you are terrorists.’ ”
Really? Prove it? Any independent reports?
A couple and their two children died in a fire last year, he said, because engines are dispatched to Sur Baher from another Palestinian neighborhood rather than from the closer Jewish ones.
Really? Is there any other report supporting this?
And of course not word #1 about Jewish life in east Jerusalem when it was under Jordanian rule. Why? Oh, I guess it's because they were all evicted by the Jordanian army and every single religious site destroyed. The Western Wall was turned into a garbage dump.
22
According to the founding father of Zionism Theodore Herzl, “the area of the Jewish State stretches: “From the Brook of Egypt to the Euphrates.”
According to Rabbi Fischmann, “The Promised Land extends from the River of Egypt up to the Euphrates, it includes parts of Syria and Lebanon.”
According to Rabbi Fischmann, “The Promised Land extends from the River of Egypt up to the Euphrates, it includes parts of Syria and Lebanon.”
5
I recently read about this interesting idea: "Jerusalem Mayor Nir Barkat urged licensed Israeli gun owners to carry their weapons and help defend civilians."
Already this advice has saved lives except of course the terrorists were killed. From the same news article: "Four Palestinians were killed and one injured after carrying out five separate knife attacks in Israel on Saturday."
It's terrible when people have to carry weapons to defend themselves but that's the way it is in Israel these days.
Already this advice has saved lives except of course the terrorists were killed. From the same news article: "Four Palestinians were killed and one injured after carrying out five separate knife attacks in Israel on Saturday."
It's terrible when people have to carry weapons to defend themselves but that's the way it is in Israel these days.
10
Israel is not a safe place for Jews. So far this year ,more Jews killed there than anywhere else in the world.
1
Not only is Israel a safe place for Jews but the world is finally a place where Jews can escape being NOT safe.
Please don't try to convince me, as a Jew, I would be safer in this world without Israel.
Please don't try to convince me, as a Jew, I would be safer in this world without Israel.
I understand that the Israeli Jews have real fears. I understand they cannot accept being stabbed. That is not he only thing going on here.
They brought this on themselves, and they clearly mean to continue everything that brought this on. Witness Netanyahu speaking just before the election, and his actual behavior since.
During decades of mistreatment, the Palestinians periodically blow up. That is wrong taken as an excuse to continue and increase that abuse of them.
The Israeli state has all the power in this relationship. This cannot end well, unless the state with all the power changes its behavior.
They brought this on themselves, and they clearly mean to continue everything that brought this on. Witness Netanyahu speaking just before the election, and his actual behavior since.
During decades of mistreatment, the Palestinians periodically blow up. That is wrong taken as an excuse to continue and increase that abuse of them.
The Israeli state has all the power in this relationship. This cannot end well, unless the state with all the power changes its behavior.
11
"They brought this on themselves...." So you are saying that civilians, innocent people walking on the street, deserve to die by terrorist stabbings? Did you really just say that?
24
No, I didn't. Did you really fail to understand, or are you just feigning that to avoid the point?
6
Ah Mark, yes you did just say that. The old "blame the victim" meme.
14
Two interesting pieces to put things in perspective.
"There will be no peace until Israel’s occupation of Palestine ends"
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/oct/11/israel-occupation-p...
What non-Jews face in democratic Israel
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4711211,00.html
"There will be no peace until Israel’s occupation of Palestine ends"
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/oct/11/israel-occupation-p...
What non-Jews face in democratic Israel
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4711211,00.html
5
"AVR Baltimore 1 day ago
The territory isn't "occupied" - it's disputed after Israel won it in a defensive war. It was controlled by Jordan before Israel and has never been under the control of so-called Palestinians so exactly how does that make it their territory?"
The real question is: How did it become the "territory" of European invaders?
The territory isn't "occupied" - it's disputed after Israel won it in a defensive war. It was controlled by Jordan before Israel and has never been under the control of so-called Palestinians so exactly how does that make it their territory?"
The real question is: How did it become the "territory" of European invaders?
9
Really?
If we're going to play that game, there's a whole heck of a lot of stuff that is going to have to be revisited in every corner of the globe, starting with the emergence of Homo sapiens. It'll be elucidating to see if any group or tribe emerges from that analysis with clean hands.
If we're going to play that game, there's a whole heck of a lot of stuff that is going to have to be revisited in every corner of the globe, starting with the emergence of Homo sapiens. It'll be elucidating to see if any group or tribe emerges from that analysis with clean hands.
9
You mean like revisiting the supposed 'ancestral homeland' based on a fictional book written by those who claim it?
2
It became the territory of all Jews, European, Sephardic and Mizrahi who have all been proven by DNA and genetic research to be the descendants of the biblical Jews whose homeland this was. So it was always 'their' territory in the sense that Jews have never been absent from the land. We know how it became the territory of the arabs: through conquest and resettlement of various arab and North African tribes, people and other muslims down through the centuries.
11
I personally have been hesitant to use the words "colonial" and "apatheid" in regards to the occupation by Israel of the Palestinian territories. But the latest round of violence brings brings back memories of uprisings and strife in colonies in the past--British controlled India, the Belgian Congo, Rhodesia, and South Africa as just a few examples. And if past is prologue, these are just the latest in what will be endless rounds of violence against the Israeli occupation--which has now gone on for 48 years.
And oh yes, it should be recalled that Israeli (either freedom fighters or terrorists--depending on your point of view) battled with British occupiers of Palestine prior to the formation of the Israeli state in 1948.
The Palestinians have hardly been on the side of the angels over the decades in regards to violence against Israel. But history has taught us that an occupied people will use terror and guerrilla tactics when they are up against the military might of the occupying force.
Indeed, past is prologue. And Israel risks further world isolation and condemnation in the same vein as Apartheid South Africa.
And oh yes, it should be recalled that Israeli (either freedom fighters or terrorists--depending on your point of view) battled with British occupiers of Palestine prior to the formation of the Israeli state in 1948.
The Palestinians have hardly been on the side of the angels over the decades in regards to violence against Israel. But history has taught us that an occupied people will use terror and guerrilla tactics when they are up against the military might of the occupying force.
Indeed, past is prologue. And Israel risks further world isolation and condemnation in the same vein as Apartheid South Africa.
6
The problem is, I didn't have to read beyond the first sentence to know you would end up Israel bashing. More in sorrow than in anger and all that.
11
Our so progressive mayor on his 'solidarity' visit to Israel calls for end of violence against Jews. He is apparently perfectly fine with violence against Palestinians since he not once expressed his outrage against price tag attacks or attempted lynching of Arab youth in Jerusalem.
"Israel Police: Hundreds Watched Attempt to Lynch Palestinians in Jerusalem, Did Not Interfere"
Oz Rosenberg Aug 20, 2012
http://www.haaretz.com/news/israel/israel-police-hundreds-watched-attemp...
"Israel Police: Hundreds Watched Attempt to Lynch Palestinians in Jerusalem, Did Not Interfere"
Oz Rosenberg Aug 20, 2012
http://www.haaretz.com/news/israel/israel-police-hundreds-watched-attemp...
4
Despair breeds violence.
5
So do Saudi-funded madrassas. And destructive ideologies of hatred. Among many other things. Sadly, violence has many fathers.
17
Clearly, the decades long fight to wipe Israel off the map is succeeding. NYT publishes this biased, horrific article. MSNBC uses a distorted PLO map in its broadcast. Anti-Israel propaganda in public and private schools, both k-12 and college level have bred "reporters" now reporting lies as truths.
29
Why we have allowed the Israeli's to treat the Palestinians as shamelessly as they have is a mystery, although petroleum and wealthy Israeli American supporters are obviously key factors. What goes around comes around is an oft quoted truism and in the case of Israel it may be that all the ill will it has fostered around the world is starting to come home to roost. One can only hope that wiser heads than the Netanyahu extremists can put Israel back on a reasonable track before what goes around comes around exerts its inevitable reaction.
6
Is there "a reasonable track" that Palestinians will accept? History seems to say no. And Israelis are never going to agree to their own destruction, whether outsider think it advisable to or not. Here again, history seems to indicate that the Jews make a sizable mistake when they depend upon outsiders to look after their welfare.
Classic irresistible force versus immovable object.
Classic irresistible force versus immovable object.
13
It is not the American people who support the injustice in Palestine ,it is the AIPAC-controlled Congress & WH. eg. In 2009 when Israel invaded Gaza & killed 1400 people of which 2/3 were women & children, 334 members of Congress signed a letter to Obama to "Go Easy On Israel" while the 192 members of the UN General Assembly voted twice by a margin of 93% to condemn & sanction Israel for this same atrocity. It included destroying 5000 buildings as punishment for objecting to the prison that Israel kept them in. Also it was NOT the Amer. people that voted to donate $4 billion/yr to Israel or to create a special $2 billion/yr US tax loophole for gifts to Israeli "charities" that build illegal settlements on land stolen from the indigenous people of Palestine. The quotes from Congressman Brian Baird “The difficult reality is this: in order to get elected to Congress..you have to raise a lot of money & you learn pretty quickly that, if Aipac is on your side, you can do that.” & John Yarmuth on upholding the interests of the US “We all took an oath of office & Aipac, in many instances, is asking us to ignore it” are reality AIPAC was twice voted as the most feared lobby in DC by the staffs of members of Congress. Pres. Carter wrote that to vote against the wishes of AIPAC was to commit political suicide. The US must change its election campaign funding laws so that AIPAC can no longer game the system & control Congress against the interests of the nation. eg invading Iraq
3
But you wrote in to contradict this. As have hundreds. As long as there is open discussion, the rights of Jews will remain.
What is frightening is on so many forums, Jews and others who support Jewish self determination are being silenced.
What is frightening is on so many forums, Jews and others who support Jewish self determination are being silenced.
5
Thousands of price tags, including many against Christians have gone unpunished. When the Benedictine Church of the Multiplication at Tabgha, on the Sea of Galilee was burnt down by extremist Jews, we didn't see a front page article, but when the supposed Joseph's Tomb was torched, Kershner was right on it with a front page piece.
It's not just the Palestinians that are violent. They are reacting to the bloodthirsty violence they have been suffering at the hands of settlers for decades.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGGp4e2oUhk
It's not just the Palestinians that are violent. They are reacting to the bloodthirsty violence they have been suffering at the hands of settlers for decades.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGGp4e2oUhk
9
Price tags?
1
Let's face it -- we wouldn't tolerate members of our communities trying to kill us here in the U.S. Why should the Israeli's tolerate it by Arab Israeli's? Even with the long history of violence, each attack has to be judged for what it is -- wanton violence.
30
It is simply wrong, and ignores historical fact, to blame Israel for the plight of the Palestinians. From 1948 until 1967, Israel went about the business of building a legitimate state with a civil government, within the prescribed borders. The Palestinian leadership could have done the same on their side, but instead focused their energies on killing Jews and ultimately destroying the State of Israel, culminating in the 1967 war, the purpose of which was to wipe Israel off the map. This history is too often ignored. The Palestinian people have no one to blame but their own leadership.
30
East Jerusalem reflects the sad lifestyle and choices of its Muslim inhabitants. Will The Times ever investigate and report on the mindset of the Palestinian leaders, who have lead their own people astray? They preach and teach hate in their schools. There is no talk of reconciliation, negotiation, or acceptance of Israel. It's all about death to Israel, death the the United States, and martyrdom. It's a religious sickness that leads to self-destruction.
28
For anyone who needs to understand the roots of the conflict google Sur Baher and see what comes up. From Wikipedia:
In 1970, Israel expropriated land around the village used for livestock grazing and harvesting olive and citrus groves from its owners.[19] Most of that land was utilized in the building of the Jerusalem Jewish neighborhood of East Talpiot.[19] According to Isabel Kershner, a fifth of Sur Baher's land was expropriated for East Talpiot, available land in the village became insufficient to meet the growing needs of the population, and it was difficult for Sur Baher residents to obtain building permits from the Jerusalem Municipality.[20]
Not to mention the regular demolition of houses deemed "illegal" by the illegal Israeli occupiers. I challenge you to present two sides to this narrative of occupation and dispossession.
In 1970, Israel expropriated land around the village used for livestock grazing and harvesting olive and citrus groves from its owners.[19] Most of that land was utilized in the building of the Jerusalem Jewish neighborhood of East Talpiot.[19] According to Isabel Kershner, a fifth of Sur Baher's land was expropriated for East Talpiot, available land in the village became insufficient to meet the growing needs of the population, and it was difficult for Sur Baher residents to obtain building permits from the Jerusalem Municipality.[20]
Not to mention the regular demolition of houses deemed "illegal" by the illegal Israeli occupiers. I challenge you to present two sides to this narrative of occupation and dispossession.
8
I am grateful for the intelligent informed readers of the NYT. That is why I subscribe to this paper because there are readers who also use other resources to form their opinions. So many others rely on folklore passed down from generation to generation and/or are so close-minded they lack an ability to reason with reality.
1
Many commenters provide just that. While the history here inspires passionate feelings on both sides, it is anything but clear-cut and unambiguous. Only an ideologue of either stripe could find it so.
If you want to gain deep knowledge on any topic, Wikipedia is really not your best friend. On any side of any debate.
4
The Jewish prophet Isaiah warned us in Passage 5:20 that mankind would view evil as good and good as evil. This article cites a poll that says the majority of Palestinians living in East Jerusalem would prefer to live under Israeli jurisdiction than under the Palestinian Authority. Yet, they teach their children to hate Jews. And this is typical New York Times fashion where stabbings have occurred for weeks and weeks, but they don't report on it until Israel starts retaliating. Then all the leftists who read The New York Times start commenting about how Israel is so awful. Fact is that retaliation is the only thing that the Palestinians understand. Hopefully they will think twice knowing that the Israeli police and military will shoot them dead for attempting to stab people. It's as simple as that.
22
This is a very hypocritical comment.Neither Israeli soldiers nor Palestinian transgressors should be violent towards anyone. In order to show love, one must model love. It doesn't seem like the Israelis are treating the Palestinians as their own people, cousins, fellow human beings who deserve equal opportunity. There's no excuse for violence in either situation. There is way too much exclusion in both situations and toxic lack of empathy for the other. With inclusion and acceptance people thrive. It would be refreshing to see more comments that reflect humility and constructive solution from both parties, this is what it will take to move forward peacefully. It seems that Big Brother Israel and little brother Palestine are butting heads, but there is no metaphorical country parent, with clout, that loves them both equally and can help bring them together.someone must take the higher road.
The claim that leaderless Palestinian violence against Israeli Jews results from the "Occupation" and Israeli recalcitrance is Western apologetics, nothing more. The actual attackers--those who can testify to their motives more accurately than speculating Western journalists--have claimed to be acting in defense of Al-Aqsa and a paranoid belief that Israeli wishes to take over the temple mount. Why not take them at their word? Because the very notion of a religiously-fueled, intractable conflict is incompatible with our liberal presuppositions (i.e., we all want the same thing: peace, security, prosperity, etc.).
What's more, Abbas has fueled "Al-Aqsa under siege" rhetoric ("The Al-Aqsa Mosque is ours... They have no right to desecrate the mosque with their dirty feet, we won’t allow them to do that"); he can ease Israeli restrictions/check-points on East Jerusalem simply by setting the record straight (i.e., Israel doesn't plan on "seizing" the temple mount") and minimizing the probability of violence by Arab-Israeli/Palestinian youth. Why, then, has Abbas issued no such statement? Because, like Republican politicians who say outlandish things to appeal to the base, he must walk a thin line between calling for "peace" and fueling his constituency's narrative of oppression by senseless Israeli imperialism. If Abbas wants peace, why not challenge the false narratives fueling the present conflict?
What's more, Abbas has fueled "Al-Aqsa under siege" rhetoric ("The Al-Aqsa Mosque is ours... They have no right to desecrate the mosque with their dirty feet, we won’t allow them to do that"); he can ease Israeli restrictions/check-points on East Jerusalem simply by setting the record straight (i.e., Israel doesn't plan on "seizing" the temple mount") and minimizing the probability of violence by Arab-Israeli/Palestinian youth. Why, then, has Abbas issued no such statement? Because, like Republican politicians who say outlandish things to appeal to the base, he must walk a thin line between calling for "peace" and fueling his constituency's narrative of oppression by senseless Israeli imperialism. If Abbas wants peace, why not challenge the false narratives fueling the present conflict?
21
A good way to see what is happening is to read Goliath by Max Blumenthal. But the dytopia presented in this book is just a reflection of the underlying ideology about which no one ever speaks: Zionism. How many Americans can define the term? If you do not understand Zionism you can only see the result, not the cause. Until Israel rejects Zionism there can be no peace, neither in one state nor two states. The root problem is Zionism itself.
4
In late 19th-century Europe where persecution of Jews had been rampant for centuries, Zionism emerged as a movement for the Jewish people's self-determination. To condemn it is simply racist.
11
I must disagree.
If you're going to go deep for roots, why stop at Zionism? Keep digging until you hit the millennia of pervasive worldwide violent and nonviolent anti-Semitism that created the need for Zionism.
If you're going to go deep for roots, why stop at Zionism? Keep digging until you hit the millennia of pervasive worldwide violent and nonviolent anti-Semitism that created the need for Zionism.
1
Anything Max Blumenthal is no starting point at all.
He is someone who uses his alleged Jewishness to bash the Jews but even more to make a career for himself.
He is often outlandish.
The German Bundestag and the Simon Wiesenthal Foundation both label him a dangerous antisemite.
The difficulty in refuting him is like all lnveterate liars, he needs an echo chamber to function so publications like Mondoweiss that publish him or his own twitter feed is immediately blocked to any one who challenges his "facts"
He is someone who uses his alleged Jewishness to bash the Jews but even more to make a career for himself.
He is often outlandish.
The German Bundestag and the Simon Wiesenthal Foundation both label him a dangerous antisemite.
The difficulty in refuting him is like all lnveterate liars, he needs an echo chamber to function so publications like Mondoweiss that publish him or his own twitter feed is immediately blocked to any one who challenges his "facts"
3
TO INCOGNITO - Tel Aviv:
So the "Arabs in East Jerusalem" can vote for their mayor. That's your suggestion for improvement. Some of us are concerned about Israel's unwillingness to adhere to the two-state solution. Add to that the fact that the Settlements continue to throw the Palestinian families out in the street and their homes and lands continue to be confiscated by Israel.
God help the Palestinians when they become upset and throw a rock over the wall in Gaza because Netanyahu's IDF will bomb 2,100 Palestinians dead (including families in their private homes) during one of his tirades.
So the "Arabs in East Jerusalem" can vote for their mayor. That's your suggestion for improvement. Some of us are concerned about Israel's unwillingness to adhere to the two-state solution. Add to that the fact that the Settlements continue to throw the Palestinian families out in the street and their homes and lands continue to be confiscated by Israel.
God help the Palestinians when they become upset and throw a rock over the wall in Gaza because Netanyahu's IDF will bomb 2,100 Palestinians dead (including families in their private homes) during one of his tirades.
10
"Throw a rock over the wall in Gaza"? In actuality, missiles fired from Gaza were raining down almost daily on Israeli towns such as Ashkelon.
Intellectual dishonesty does not advance your argument. You and others who share your position have many solid facts to draw upon, so why undercut your credibility by straying from them?
Intellectual dishonesty does not advance your argument. You and others who share your position have many solid facts to draw upon, so why undercut your credibility by straying from them?
3
So JMM, how would your fellow Texans respond if someone fired 4000 missiles into Dallas?
1
One thing East Jerusalem is NOT "bubbling over" with is attention from American media unless an Israeli is being attacked.
How much more likely would POSITIVE change in East Jerusalem, Gaza and the West Bank be if American media gave regular attention to the human crisis in Palestinian territories, and Israel's brutal policies there?
Surely Israel's security concerns can be met without brutalizing millions of Palestinians. The rest of the world is expected to deal with its security issues in a fashion consistent with attention to basic decency and human rights. Why is Israel allowed, with virtually unquestioned US support (other than a few inconsequential comments every now and then), an entirely different standard?
Let's look at some of our supposed "key" allies: Israel, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia! What a list! And we are the supposed moral beacon of the world? We need a significant reality check.
How much more likely would POSITIVE change in East Jerusalem, Gaza and the West Bank be if American media gave regular attention to the human crisis in Palestinian territories, and Israel's brutal policies there?
Surely Israel's security concerns can be met without brutalizing millions of Palestinians. The rest of the world is expected to deal with its security issues in a fashion consistent with attention to basic decency and human rights. Why is Israel allowed, with virtually unquestioned US support (other than a few inconsequential comments every now and then), an entirely different standard?
Let's look at some of our supposed "key" allies: Israel, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia! What a list! And we are the supposed moral beacon of the world? We need a significant reality check.
11
What standard should Israel meet? America's?
The Washington Post reported that by May of this year, already 385 people had been fatally shot by the police. On average, an American police officer shoots someone every 8 hours. And you have difficulty with Israeli security shooting people in the course of a stabbing?
How many Israelis being armed and acting in self defense? You disapprove of that in a country where people walk around armed and shoot people all the time - mostly in schools and malls and movie theaters but the public insists on being armed.
You have difficulty with Israel bombing its enemies who shoot missiles incessantly into its population? Maybe you should go beyond the NYT and read the Intercept on America's, - a country completely non- threatened - drone war. Anyone you can't identify you call an enemy kill. Never mind you are killing people just for speaking out against America as "legitimate" targets.
Trust me there is no comparison in the number of Muslims you have killed and Israel has. What is different is you justify, falsely, every kill and no Israeli kill is justified. If you had a Gaza problem, you would have flattened them by now while screaming "USA!!"
You don't think you would have barriers and people would be profiled if a certain group was randomly stabbing people in America?
The standards you seek for Israel are not any other countries, including and especially yours.
The Washington Post reported that by May of this year, already 385 people had been fatally shot by the police. On average, an American police officer shoots someone every 8 hours. And you have difficulty with Israeli security shooting people in the course of a stabbing?
How many Israelis being armed and acting in self defense? You disapprove of that in a country where people walk around armed and shoot people all the time - mostly in schools and malls and movie theaters but the public insists on being armed.
You have difficulty with Israel bombing its enemies who shoot missiles incessantly into its population? Maybe you should go beyond the NYT and read the Intercept on America's, - a country completely non- threatened - drone war. Anyone you can't identify you call an enemy kill. Never mind you are killing people just for speaking out against America as "legitimate" targets.
Trust me there is no comparison in the number of Muslims you have killed and Israel has. What is different is you justify, falsely, every kill and no Israeli kill is justified. If you had a Gaza problem, you would have flattened them by now while screaming "USA!!"
You don't think you would have barriers and people would be profiled if a certain group was randomly stabbing people in America?
The standards you seek for Israel are not any other countries, including and especially yours.
4
Let's set aside your USA problem. My comment was about Israel, not the wrongs of America, Canada, European colonists, etc. With all their faults, only one of the foregoing continues to occupy, subjugate & brutalize another people.
Could we start with the Israeli/Arab kill "differential?"
What is the multiple of Arabs & Palestinians killed versus Israelis killed by them? I don't have the exact answer, but know it is well into the double digits.
Next, could we address who is occupying, embargoing, imprisoning, torturing & completely subjugating whom?
Israel's actions with regard to the Palestinians are ones no other self-proclaimed "enlightened" democracy matches (thankfully!).
The attempted destruction of Palestinian society to enable Israel's territorial ambitions, with utter disregard for basic humanity, has to result in explosive anger & reaction.
I am sure you are all for Jewish terrorism that helped ensure the creation of Israel. Can't you extend that basic understanding to Palestinians? Don't they deserve their own country? Yes, Israel is here to stay, but for God's sake let the Palestinians have their own too!
If you're upset that Arabs and Palestinians reacted with anger to the creation of Israel, why don't you consider how a Holocaust carried out by Europeans, against Europeans, in Europe, resulted in the creation of a Jewish state in Arab/Palestinian land. Don't get me started on the "leave Canada movement," so Native Americans can get back their land.
Could we start with the Israeli/Arab kill "differential?"
What is the multiple of Arabs & Palestinians killed versus Israelis killed by them? I don't have the exact answer, but know it is well into the double digits.
Next, could we address who is occupying, embargoing, imprisoning, torturing & completely subjugating whom?
Israel's actions with regard to the Palestinians are ones no other self-proclaimed "enlightened" democracy matches (thankfully!).
The attempted destruction of Palestinian society to enable Israel's territorial ambitions, with utter disregard for basic humanity, has to result in explosive anger & reaction.
I am sure you are all for Jewish terrorism that helped ensure the creation of Israel. Can't you extend that basic understanding to Palestinians? Don't they deserve their own country? Yes, Israel is here to stay, but for God's sake let the Palestinians have their own too!
If you're upset that Arabs and Palestinians reacted with anger to the creation of Israel, why don't you consider how a Holocaust carried out by Europeans, against Europeans, in Europe, resulted in the creation of a Jewish state in Arab/Palestinian land. Don't get me started on the "leave Canada movement," so Native Americans can get back their land.
1
I try to objectively understand how a large number of Palestinians view the Israelis--as usurpers of their land akin to the white French people who came as colonizers in the 19th century and were eventually driven out of Algeria in the 1960s by the native Arabs and Berbers who had lived there for centuries prior to France's takeover in 1830.
But I just can't see the two situations as comparable. Over time, France lost the moral authority to govern Algeria as a part of France itself. The Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews who play the lead role in governing Israel don't rule it on behalf of the metropole located on another continent. And in terms of numbers, Jews are far more numerous in Israel relative to Muslims than ethnic French were to Arabs and Berbers in Algeria.
If Palestinians dream of driving the Jews out of Israel as Arabs drove French people out of Algeria, they will never realize that dream short of committing crimes against humanity that utterly dwarf what Israeli security forces have done to Palestinians since 1967 in Gaza and the West Bank.
But I just can't see the two situations as comparable. Over time, France lost the moral authority to govern Algeria as a part of France itself. The Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews who play the lead role in governing Israel don't rule it on behalf of the metropole located on another continent. And in terms of numbers, Jews are far more numerous in Israel relative to Muslims than ethnic French were to Arabs and Berbers in Algeria.
If Palestinians dream of driving the Jews out of Israel as Arabs drove French people out of Algeria, they will never realize that dream short of committing crimes against humanity that utterly dwarf what Israeli security forces have done to Palestinians since 1967 in Gaza and the West Bank.
8
Now the Jews are more numerous, because of a systematic policy of Judaization and elimination of Arabs.
4
Arabs have been eliminated? Check your population figures please!
1
Not to mention that unlike the French, the Jews are not colonizers. They are indigenous. Amazingly, this was a completely accepted fact before the establishment of the state of Israel. The only question was how the Jews would mix and how their return would effect the existing Arab denizens. Nobody thought the Jews were Europeans. Europeans rejected that. Always.
5
Organized religion at its finest. Take the cradle of civilization and the holy land and turn them into a hell hole of genocide, war, and destruction. There is an appalling lack of the love of God and humanity in this region. One day God will get fed up and release Armageddon, an earthquake or lighting to detonate Israel's 200 nuclear warheads.
Then a simple message: Don't use my name to start wars!
Then a simple message: Don't use my name to start wars!
2
Reading these comments, I've been struck by the degree to which each side takes pot shots at the other based on its own cherry-picked group of facts. And virtually no one proposes a solution, for the present and into the future. For both sides, it's all about backward-looking blame.
When it comes to the Israeli-Palestinian situation, it's almost as if the pleasure of throwing spitballs has completely supplanted any drive to think deeply and share ideas about how to move forward.
It is deeply disheartening.
When it comes to the Israeli-Palestinian situation, it's almost as if the pleasure of throwing spitballs has completely supplanted any drive to think deeply and share ideas about how to move forward.
It is deeply disheartening.
1
the palestinians need a new leader, not a terrorist and not Hamas. thats a start. then the majority needs to want change and want education and want reform. the problem is the majority want to kill the jews. the majority do not want a two state solution. the majority believe that we are infidels who need to be killed. does anyone understand that the underlying problem is not political, but islamic extremism?
12
Right now two terrorists shot and knifed their way through passengers at the central bus station of Beer Sheva. Seven Israelis attacked, two of them critically injured. This is in addition to the 70 or more injured during the past month, in addition to the 7 who were killed. As for JerusalemL at Hadassah Hospital, which has a very high percentage of Arab nurses and doctors (largely the result of the high percentage of Arab students in Israel's Nursing Schools and Medical Schools) - the injured terrorists and their victims receive identical care, often in the same departments, even in the same rooms. The terrorists are not bound, as criminals would be in the US.
16
Palestinians in East Jerusalem cannot have it both ways. If, as Palestinian polls report, 61% of East Jerusalem Palestinians actively support "armed struggle" against Israel and activbely engage in that struggle, they cannot be expected to be, and should not be, treated as equal citizens of Israel, any more so than people living in this country who supported and engaged in "armed struggle" against the U.S. could expect to be treated as citizens, as opposed to being charged with treason and incarcerated. If you want to be treated like a citizen, act like a citizen.
23
@Jay Orchard
Neither can the Israelis. Either you are occupiers or you are a democratic, peace loving people. And no matter whether the Palestinians protest or not, are violent or not, the Israelis continue to steal their land violently.
Neither can the Israelis. Either you are occupiers or you are a democratic, peace loving people. And no matter whether the Palestinians protest or not, are violent or not, the Israelis continue to steal their land violently.
4
Except much of the violence is occurring within UN recognized borders, not the occupied territories. Not sure how to explain that away except though incitement and horrific terrorism.
7
We pray for the day when we can see all Beings as One. Brothers and sisters, all of us. Respect each and listen. This war between branches of the family is long and tiresome. Let's find a way to make up and live in peace with one another.
May it be in beauty.
May it be in beauty.
2
Commenters would do well to consider the treatment of Jewish communities in Arab lands between 1920 and 1970. Simply stated, they were expelled (mostly to Israel, some to France) and their property was confiscated. While Palestinians may be the victims of discrimination in Israel, they are also Israeli citizens (one and a half million), free to work and worship.
Palestinian refugees from the 1948 partition have never found a welcome or citizenship in other Arab lands. Jordan occupied the West Bank for twenty years and did nothing for the creation of a Palestinian state. It is useful for Arab regimes to maintain an oppressed and violent Palestinian population in Israel, Gaza and the West Bank to detract attention from their own kleptocractic, failing states.
NYT commenters always hold Jews to a higher standard (just like the old Hebrew National hot dog commercial.) The fact is that there is no easy way to integrate the more primitive Palestinian citizens of Israel into the modern Israeli culture. Just think of how well Native Americans have done here since 1700. And aboriginals in New Zealand and Australia.
I don't know how well any Western culture will do with a sizeable primitive Islamic Arab minority in their midst. I am more certain about how a Western Christian or Jewish minority will do in an Arab-dominated society.
Palestinian refugees from the 1948 partition have never found a welcome or citizenship in other Arab lands. Jordan occupied the West Bank for twenty years and did nothing for the creation of a Palestinian state. It is useful for Arab regimes to maintain an oppressed and violent Palestinian population in Israel, Gaza and the West Bank to detract attention from their own kleptocractic, failing states.
NYT commenters always hold Jews to a higher standard (just like the old Hebrew National hot dog commercial.) The fact is that there is no easy way to integrate the more primitive Palestinian citizens of Israel into the modern Israeli culture. Just think of how well Native Americans have done here since 1700. And aboriginals in New Zealand and Australia.
I don't know how well any Western culture will do with a sizeable primitive Islamic Arab minority in their midst. I am more certain about how a Western Christian or Jewish minority will do in an Arab-dominated society.
46
So what does 1920-1970 have to do with today? What are the Israeli Jewish citizens doing today - retaliating for those earlier years? This attitude of entitlement that brings about constant whining about days of long ago is tiresome. Get over it. Move on. Our African-American citizens do not whine about the slavery that once existed nor the lack of civil rights in the 1950s, instead they accurately call attention to the fact that there is discrimination.
1
Why were there Palestinian refugees in 1948? Because they were expelled at gunpoint to make room for European colonialists.
2
Not so simple. The native Israelis and concentration camp survivors were not exactly "European colonialists." On the expiration of the British mandate, a day-old Israel was attacked by six different Arab armies- the Arabs preferred that strategy (attempted extermination of Jews) to establishing a Palestinian state in their zone of the mandate. There is a price to pay when you invade a sovereign nation (1948, 1967 and 1973) and fail to win. You usually lose territory.
8
Both Israelis and Palestinians are first and foremost victims of the failed Palestinian leadership which refuses to negotiate, accept one of the existing peace plans previously offered or come up with one of their own. Of course people get frustrated when their leaders have no vision or viable answers.
9
Read the article on the Wash Post by Dan Ephron today to get some perspective on fault and blah win the peace process.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/how-israels-most-fervent-peacema...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/how-israels-most-fervent-peacema...
2
Sure, play up Palestinian despair without noting the reason is the actions of the Palestinian Authority and Hamas and its proxies. The reason for checkpoints and security is that Palestinians bomb cafes, weddings, schools and now this incited stabbing spree for trumped up reasons with children goaded on by cynical leaders without conscience. The stories have a subtle headline and story about Palestinians being shot and little about their innocent victims, 72 year old women, parents with their children in view on their way to worship. I don't see the story of the Israeli representative speaking at the UN about the posters distributed in Palestinian schools showing children "How to Kill a Jew". It's almost always revisionist history portraying the plight and despair of the Palestinians vs what Israeli society must endure and the reactions to unspeakable terror. Two people interviewed for this article are a "successful businesswoman" and "a lecturer at Hebrew U who runs 2 clinics in Israel's health system and lives in a comfortable home." They would not have such status in Arab held land. Is there any Israeli lecturing in an Arab University and running clinics in their health care systems, eh? Yes, it is inconvenient to deal with checkpoints and 'humiliating' to be searched - but how about stating why out loud? The Times and most media reporting is shamelessly biased and recent exposes about the hidden pressures to cover news in the region with an anti-Israel bias or be shunned.
26
I would like for someone to list the number of meaningful concessions the Palestinians have made over the last 30 years to advance the peace processs. I keep reading about failed negotiations and refusals to attend peace talks but negotiations require both sides to make concessions in order to reach an accord. Israel returned the Gaza Strip back to the Palestinians and look what that got them!
In my view the problem is that the culture of Palestinians and most Muslims is consumed with anti semitism and embedded in their teachings from the earliest of ages. It is impossible to change the genetics of a culture that has practiced these policies for centuries.
In my view the problem is that the culture of Palestinians and most Muslims is consumed with anti semitism and embedded in their teachings from the earliest of ages. It is impossible to change the genetics of a culture that has practiced these policies for centuries.
23
I don't know why I should make concessions if you steal my land.
4
Interesting to note you could not name a concession made by the Palestinians! Perhaps a good start would be to stop chanting "Death To Israel" and recognition that Israel has a right to exist.
Perhaps too much to ask of a culture rooted in hatred and violence rampant among its own tribes.
Perhaps too much to ask of a culture rooted in hatred and violence rampant among its own tribes.
7
Still waiting for some deep thinking Palestinian apologist to make a thoughtful response to my inquiry!
7
Why is the NYT so hell-bent on blaming the victims? This article is of a kind with yesterday's cover picture. I was amazed to see the covers of the (print versions of the) NYT and WSJ yesterday. Both had the same event pictured, to wit, the Palestinian terrorist who disguised himself as a member of the press in order to sneak in a stab an Israeli soldier. The WSJ had a picture of the terrorist, knife out, chasing after the soldier. The NYT had a picture of the terrorist, crumpled on the ground, after having been shot. A perfect instance of a picture being worth a 1000 word anti-Israel/blame the victim editorial.
18
And that despite the fact that the terrorist's impersonation of a press person places reporters on the ground in danger.
1
Dr. King didn't do his marches so people could boycott elections.Were the Pals to emulate his actions peace and power would be obtained.
Listen to Pres Obama, "Don't do stupid stuff".
Not likely to happen or be heard.
Listen to Pres Obama, "Don't do stupid stuff".
Not likely to happen or be heard.
7
(Im an American Jew living in Israel) There is too much to say on this sensitive subject on both sides but I must say this. I am sorry. I am sorry that Mohammed Abu Khdeir was kidnapped and burned alive. That is atrocious and barbaric, and there is nothing that should warrant that kind of reaction. Israel is sorry. I am sorry. I am sorry that every time my husband leaves the house I have to hold myself back from clinging on. I am sorry but it is not my fault. Let me repeat. It is not my fault. It is the Imams and leaders that tell people to “kill the infidels and the Jews”. It is your fault for giving excuses, justifications, and explanations, for stabbings and shootings on innocent civilians. It is never ok! You want change? I want change. You want people to stop being killed? I want people to stop being killed.So let’s hope that next time, instead of tunnels being built to attack Israelis , schools are built to educate Palestinian children. Instead of spreading terror and fear, try spreading peace and change.
I think harder for me than the physical fear for me and my family; it is the unjust portrayal and lack of understanding for why we have to live like this. You think this is how we want to live?! Think again. Please think again.
I think harder for me than the physical fear for me and my family; it is the unjust portrayal and lack of understanding for why we have to live like this. You think this is how we want to live?! Think again. Please think again.
54
Frida.....you are caught up in the original untenable partition of Mandated Palestine. Neither side wanted to give up space or share space with each other. Nothing has changed to this day.
It is not your fault or your family's fault that the 1948 UN Decision was a mistake. As an 12 year American expat living in France, I empathize with your search for a peaceful life.
I found mine in Provence. I hope you find yours!
It is not your fault or your family's fault that the 1948 UN Decision was a mistake. As an 12 year American expat living in France, I empathize with your search for a peaceful life.
I found mine in Provence. I hope you find yours!
1
Then tell your countrymen to stop stealing the Palestinian's land and throwing them out of their houses onto the street. Watch a documentary or two that shows what your country's people are doing to the people in Gaza. Watch the Jewish men with their traditional dress shout "now you can live in a garbage can. Pretty soon all of Israel will be ours." Educate yourself.
1
Honey, it is your fault. You are an American; you have a country; you are using a mythic *right of return* as a Jew--how many generations away from the Middle East?--that you believe trumps the right of return of people and their direct descendants thrown out of Haifa and Jaffa and many other cities, towns and villages in what became Israel via European and American guilt over the horrors of a European war.
You want to be safe walking streets you have no right to inhabit, other than that given to you by a mythological tribal document.
Of the four children of my great-grandparents, two settled in America and two settled in what was then British-mandate Palestine. I am very grateful that my grandparents chose the US and that I am a Jewish American and not, like you, an American Jew. I do not see how the children of Ukrainian Jews have more right to settle on other people*s land than the children of Christian and Muslim Arabs who have lived there for a millennium.
You want to be safe walking streets you have no right to inhabit, other than that given to you by a mythological tribal document.
Of the four children of my great-grandparents, two settled in America and two settled in what was then British-mandate Palestine. I am very grateful that my grandparents chose the US and that I am a Jewish American and not, like you, an American Jew. I do not see how the children of Ukrainian Jews have more right to settle on other people*s land than the children of Christian and Muslim Arabs who have lived there for a millennium.
The major powers of the UN Security Council should intervene and impose a solution.
1. Create an international force to administer Jerusalem
2. Force Israel to end its military occupation of the West Bank - in accordance with Resolution 242.
3. Form a sovereign, de-militaized, Palestinian state in the Original UN mandated zones.
Israel - left to its own - will never end the occupation. It is time to end the charade. Otherwise - there will never be peace - let alone justice.
1. Create an international force to administer Jerusalem
2. Force Israel to end its military occupation of the West Bank - in accordance with Resolution 242.
3. Form a sovereign, de-militaized, Palestinian state in the Original UN mandated zones.
Israel - left to its own - will never end the occupation. It is time to end the charade. Otherwise - there will never be peace - let alone justice.
12
I visited Israel in September 1973 for an International microbiological meeting. It was the 25th anniversary of Israel's founding and most observers expected an Arab attack . My company was reluctant to have me go to the meeting but relented at my urging. I stayed at a Palestinian hotel in East Jerusalem near the Jaffe Gate. Little did I know the War would start in the first week of October after I departed in September.
The proprietor of the hotel was very hospitable to me but spoke of the Israelis in a very hostile tone. It grieved me that such a beautiful part of the world was in such a turmoil.
Having observed events from 1948 to now, I can say that the situation in Israel is not amenable to a peaceful solution. I fear that the satis quo for Israel is never ending insecurity .
The proprietor of the hotel was very hospitable to me but spoke of the Israelis in a very hostile tone. It grieved me that such a beautiful part of the world was in such a turmoil.
Having observed events from 1948 to now, I can say that the situation in Israel is not amenable to a peaceful solution. I fear that the satis quo for Israel is never ending insecurity .
7
I agree. There is no reason the Israelis should treat the Palestinians as anything but enemy aliens.
" I fear that the status quo for Israel is never ending insecurity ."
Palestine belongs to its indigenous people not the Europeans who showed up in the mid/late 20th century. In 1918 , Ben Gurion & Y. Ben Zvi (PM for 2 decades & 2nd pres of Israel respectively) coauthored a history of Israel in which they agreed with professional historians that there was no exile of Jews from Roman Palestine in the 1st or 2nd century AD. They agreed that most of the populace (90%+) stayed in place and that a majority of them converted to Islam in the 7th century. It was only after the Palestinians revolted in 1929 &1936-39 against the loss of THEIR land to foreigners that these 2 premier Zionists decided that ethnic cleansing was needed & OK. Eg. In 1948 Ben Gurion directed the Zionist militias in ethnically cleansing 425 villages & 12 urban centers of their indigenous people creating 750,000 refugees. This evil as continued to this day.
As Shlomo Sand establishes in his intern`l best seller “The Invention Of The Jewish People” the 20th century colonists are mostly the descendants of converts to Judaism from the 200 BC-300 AD era around the Roman Empire ,when Judaism was an open religion & competed with Christianity for converts ,plus the conversion of the Khazars c750-1150 AD that spawned the Ashkenazi who became the founding colonists in the 20th century.
Palestine belongs to its indigenous people not the Europeans who showed up in the mid/late 20th century. In 1918 , Ben Gurion & Y. Ben Zvi (PM for 2 decades & 2nd pres of Israel respectively) coauthored a history of Israel in which they agreed with professional historians that there was no exile of Jews from Roman Palestine in the 1st or 2nd century AD. They agreed that most of the populace (90%+) stayed in place and that a majority of them converted to Islam in the 7th century. It was only after the Palestinians revolted in 1929 &1936-39 against the loss of THEIR land to foreigners that these 2 premier Zionists decided that ethnic cleansing was needed & OK. Eg. In 1948 Ben Gurion directed the Zionist militias in ethnically cleansing 425 villages & 12 urban centers of their indigenous people creating 750,000 refugees. This evil as continued to this day.
As Shlomo Sand establishes in his intern`l best seller “The Invention Of The Jewish People” the 20th century colonists are mostly the descendants of converts to Judaism from the 200 BC-300 AD era around the Roman Empire ,when Judaism was an open religion & competed with Christianity for converts ,plus the conversion of the Khazars c750-1150 AD that spawned the Ashkenazi who became the founding colonists in the 20th century.
1
Duncan lennox what book did you read that in. The jews converted to islam, the majority of jews were not exiled?
What's happening in Israel is terrible, but now Israelis are experiencing what Palestinians for years have been experiencing on a daily basis with price tag attacks and IDF shootings.
10
I think there’s a resurgence of anti-gentileism because at this point in time Israel has not yet learned how to be multicultural, and I think we’re gonna be part of the throes of that transformation, which must take place. Israel has not yet learned how to be multicultural. Israel is not going to be the monolithic societies that they once were in the last century. Non-Jews are going to be at the center of that. It’s a huge transformation for Israel to make. They are now going into a multicultural mode, and Non-Jews will be resented because of our leading role. But without that leading role, and without that transformation, Israel will not survive.
6
Israel, which is made up of Jews from all over the world, as well as Christians, Muslims, Ba'hai and other faiths -- Israel, which has Ethiopians, and Russians, and Europeans, and Arabic Jews, and Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews -- is not multi-cultural enough for you????
8
I am an American Jew who lives in Jerusalem and I would love nothing but peace.
I would love to walk with my children to school or to the park without fear of someone stabbing us or running us over. When did economic or political grievances become an acceptable motive for a people to take knives and stab people to death?! When did it become ok to shoot a mother and a father in cold blood that had their 4 children in the back seat?! When did all this become acceptable?! My rabbis and my leaders don’t teach me how to kill and stab my Palestinian neighbors. They comfort me and calm me. Did you know that Israeli family that was stabbed last week in the old city? The 2 year old that was shot and his mother who after watching her husband get murdered, pleaded and begged for help from over ten Palestinians, and they all laughed in her face! She had 11 stab wounds, a knife in her shoulder blade, and 2 babies with her! She grabbed a Palestinian man’s arm and pleaded and begged for help and he pushed her away and screamed “die”! You think the screams of “Allah Hu Akbar” are because of political or economic hardships? I promise you that if the leaders of the Palestinians did not incite hatred and violence in their people then we would be closer to peace. they do not want peace. They voted Hamas as their leader. They voted! If we took all the walls down and let everyone live together, what do you think would happen?
I would love to walk with my children to school or to the park without fear of someone stabbing us or running us over. When did economic or political grievances become an acceptable motive for a people to take knives and stab people to death?! When did it become ok to shoot a mother and a father in cold blood that had their 4 children in the back seat?! When did all this become acceptable?! My rabbis and my leaders don’t teach me how to kill and stab my Palestinian neighbors. They comfort me and calm me. Did you know that Israeli family that was stabbed last week in the old city? The 2 year old that was shot and his mother who after watching her husband get murdered, pleaded and begged for help from over ten Palestinians, and they all laughed in her face! She had 11 stab wounds, a knife in her shoulder blade, and 2 babies with her! She grabbed a Palestinian man’s arm and pleaded and begged for help and he pushed her away and screamed “die”! You think the screams of “Allah Hu Akbar” are because of political or economic hardships? I promise you that if the leaders of the Palestinians did not incite hatred and violence in their people then we would be closer to peace. they do not want peace. They voted Hamas as their leader. They voted! If we took all the walls down and let everyone live together, what do you think would happen?
26
When you steal people's land and livelihood and dehumanize them, don't be surprised when they become dehumanized. I can give you counter examples of Jews killing, shooting, bombing and burning Arabs without any remorse. Where do these examples take us?
1
Frida, my heart goes out to you. The voice of sanity in the face of a maddening double standard. I hope you and your family are safe.
2
Is the requirement to be an NYT Pick to be Jewish and speak out against Israel?
Why aren't there more Palestinians speaking out about the PA:
- Rejecting several Israeli proposals for PA control of 95+% of the West Bank
- Being a hornet's nest of corruption and cronyism
- Not holding regularly scheduled elections so that PA officials can be accountable to their constituents
I guess it is easier to convince their own teenagers to go out and stab Jewish teenagers.
Why aren't there more Palestinians speaking out about the PA:
- Rejecting several Israeli proposals for PA control of 95+% of the West Bank
- Being a hornet's nest of corruption and cronyism
- Not holding regularly scheduled elections so that PA officials can be accountable to their constituents
I guess it is easier to convince their own teenagers to go out and stab Jewish teenagers.
28
Jerusalem is not part of Israel. The Palestinians and the Israelis both claim it as their capital. The world community of nations does not recognize either claim. There are no foreign embassies in Jerusalem. (There may be one or two)
It's not popular in the US to point that out. The Jews and the evangelical Christians in the US are a powerful lobbying, $$, and voting block. Not so in the rest of the world.....
It's not popular in the US to point that out. The Jews and the evangelical Christians in the US are a powerful lobbying, $$, and voting block. Not so in the rest of the world.....
9
There are either no foreign embassies in Jerusalem or one or two. It can't be both.
BTW: the "massive Jewish vote" in the US is a fiction. Jews make up 1.6% of all Americans. They could not possibly influence ANY national or state elections.
BTW: the "massive Jewish vote" in the US is a fiction. Jews make up 1.6% of all Americans. They could not possibly influence ANY national or state elections.
Anyone who compares the current situation with Palestinians to the systematic oppression of African-Americans (Jim Crow laws) and the wholesale destruction of Jews during the Holocaust, should be instantly flagged. The Jews were not trying to destroy the countries in which they lived. Similarly, with Southern blacks. Israel on the other hand, is facing an existential war--one that began in 1948 and has yet to end.
A state was offered to the Palestinian in 1948--they refused. A state was offered by Ehud Barak--they refused. Intifadah I and II all but destroyed the Israeli peace movement. Intifadah I and II were not about co-existence or the end of occupation. Intifadah was about returning ALL of Israel to Palestinian control. is I am not in father of West Bank settlements and deplore Jewish fundamentalism and their Greater Israel mentality. But this NEVER was the mindset of the bulk of secular Israelis. However, terrorism created fear and fear UNDERSTANDABLY made average Israelis leery of Palestinian intent.
Finally to all those who are eager to tar and feather Israel ask yourself this: while 61 per cent of Palestinians support armed struggle against Israel, 52 per cent would prefer to be citizens of Israel with equal rights than citizens of a Palestinian state. What does that tell you?
A state was offered to the Palestinian in 1948--they refused. A state was offered by Ehud Barak--they refused. Intifadah I and II all but destroyed the Israeli peace movement. Intifadah I and II were not about co-existence or the end of occupation. Intifadah was about returning ALL of Israel to Palestinian control. is I am not in father of West Bank settlements and deplore Jewish fundamentalism and their Greater Israel mentality. But this NEVER was the mindset of the bulk of secular Israelis. However, terrorism created fear and fear UNDERSTANDABLY made average Israelis leery of Palestinian intent.
Finally to all those who are eager to tar and feather Israel ask yourself this: while 61 per cent of Palestinians support armed struggle against Israel, 52 per cent would prefer to be citizens of Israel with equal rights than citizens of a Palestinian state. What does that tell you?
56
It tells me that a significant percentage of Palestinians are deeply confused about their desires and goals.
1
...that your math is off...
It is an interesting reflection on the low-information status of most of the comments slamming the Israelis that one of the highest 'recommended' claims that the reason the West Bank arabs had no problem with being governed by a Jordanian Dynasty, King Hussein and the Jordanian bedouins who at the time made up the majority of the Jordanian population, was because Jordanian rule treated the arabs humanely. It is a fact that Hussein hated Arafat and generally despised the West bank population as did most Jordanians and he ruled them with an Iron fist in the manner common to arabs. In addition his army killed thousands during the Black September episode. Israeli rule by contrast has been benign and ledt them to run their own local affairs. But the fiction of the good old days of Jordanian rule is preferred by those either ignorant of the truth or unwilling to admit it.
21
Not only in the past were palestinian Jordanian citizens treated more poorly, they are still being treated so today. Even more telling, palestinians fleeing their "refugee" camps in Syria are treated by the Jordanian government to a different set of standards (again more onerously) than are Syrian citizens fleeing the war in Syria.
5
1. Palestinians living in East Jerusalem choose not to vote in municipal elections. While even non voting residents deserve services, naturally when you have no representation at city Hall you will have less to say about policy and resource allocation.
2. Ambulances, Police and public transportation are regularly stoned and fire bombed in Palestinian neighborhood´s, thus reluctant to enter there.
3. The neighborhoods are trashed by barricades made from trash cans, tire burning, and rock throwing. Municipal cleaning teams are harassed and attacked.
4. But after all this ¨ June poll by the Palestinian Center for Public Opinion found that 61 percent of Palestinians in Jerusalem support “armed struggle” against Israel. Yet 52 percent said they would prefer to be citizens of Israel with equal rights than citizens of a Palestinian state,¨ So on one hand they want to kill Israelis on the other hand they want to be citizens in their country.
While it is true there is discrimination against Palestinians. Acting in ways described above will achieve nothing except for resentment. Change, as many groups have found, does not come through boycott and violence but from participation and institution building. If they choose the constructive path they will find many Israelis supporting their legitimate goals. If they continue with this counter productive acts they will only face more and more resentments from the Jewish side. History teaches that they will be the losers from this policy.
2. Ambulances, Police and public transportation are regularly stoned and fire bombed in Palestinian neighborhood´s, thus reluctant to enter there.
3. The neighborhoods are trashed by barricades made from trash cans, tire burning, and rock throwing. Municipal cleaning teams are harassed and attacked.
4. But after all this ¨ June poll by the Palestinian Center for Public Opinion found that 61 percent of Palestinians in Jerusalem support “armed struggle” against Israel. Yet 52 percent said they would prefer to be citizens of Israel with equal rights than citizens of a Palestinian state,¨ So on one hand they want to kill Israelis on the other hand they want to be citizens in their country.
While it is true there is discrimination against Palestinians. Acting in ways described above will achieve nothing except for resentment. Change, as many groups have found, does not come through boycott and violence but from participation and institution building. If they choose the constructive path they will find many Israelis supporting their legitimate goals. If they continue with this counter productive acts they will only face more and more resentments from the Jewish side. History teaches that they will be the losers from this policy.
17
For those interested in how the IDF and the colonizers (I refuse to call them settlers, it santizes the illegality of their actions) actually treat Palestinians, please watch "Five Broken Cameras." The documentary depicts the daily assault on Palestinian villages. The colonizers burn the olive groves under the cover of darkness for those suggesting it cannot be done. As to the rest, I refer you to the commenter, Mr. Pollack (see NYTimes pick).
11
Sure, Palestinians could unite and elect representatives to Jerusalem's city council and even Israel's parliament, but what happens when those bodies refuse to seat them? Or if they do admit them, what happens when Jewish representatives walk out, denying a quorum, rather than sit next to politicians they believe are calling for Israel's destruction?
High-minded Americans call on Palestinians to quiet down, march peacefully, and participate in political avenues open to them, but that doesn't mean they won't still be opressed by Israelis who are aghast at the thought of having to cooperate with them and want them shunned instead.
High-minded Americans call on Palestinians to quiet down, march peacefully, and participate in political avenues open to them, but that doesn't mean they won't still be opressed by Israelis who are aghast at the thought of having to cooperate with them and want them shunned instead.
9
there are Arabs seated and voting in the Knesset.
Denying a quorum works only if you are a minority, and is unneeded if you have an overwhelming majority.
Were the Arabs to embrace peace the dividend to all of Israel's people would be so huge that it might over shadow the hallelujahs let out.
Denying a quorum works only if you are a minority, and is unneeded if you have an overwhelming majority.
Were the Arabs to embrace peace the dividend to all of Israel's people would be so huge that it might over shadow the hallelujahs let out.
6
if they are calling for jerusalems destruction then they should not have a seat , and if they are not calling for it then welcome aboard. stop playing what ifs...non of this should justify stabbing civilians to death and then being celebrated as a martyr.
4
Mark: Your thought experiment----"what happens when those bodies refuse to seat them? Or if they do admit them, what happens when Jewish representatives walk out, denying a quorum, rather than sit next to politicians they believe are calling for Israel's destruction?"---has already been tried, in the Israeli Knesset no less, where the Arab Joint List is the third largest party. The Arab MKs were seated and Jewish MKs did not walk out. What in the world makes you think that the reverse would happen on a local level or are you just trying to be clever?
6
It is about time that the UN takes responsibility for this, as it does to so many
other conflicts all over the world. The UN should impose two state solution by
force if need be .Its long over due .
other conflicts all over the world. The UN should impose two state solution by
force if need be .Its long over due .
6
If you want un to get involved, they should enforce their 1947 decision.
1
Contrasted with Mr. Abbas's incendiary remarks, Mr. Netanyahu's principled stand against the rioting and violence is yet another reason why Israel must remain the sole guarantor of access to the Holy Sites on the Temple Mount
19
Israel was never 'the sole guarantor' of access to the Temple Mount. It shared this duty with the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan.
Ergo, your premise on Mr Netanyahu's supposedly principled stand is moot.
The ones trying to constantly cause trouble around the Al Aksa Moschee are always the ultra-Orthodox, the ones that are dreaming of a 'Greater Israel'.
Ergo, your premise on Mr Netanyahu's supposedly principled stand is moot.
The ones trying to constantly cause trouble around the Al Aksa Moschee are always the ultra-Orthodox, the ones that are dreaming of a 'Greater Israel'.
5
The words "principled" and "Netanyahu" do not belong in the same phrase.
2
OK, how about generally admired and trusted by his people in contrast to President Obama who, according to recent polls, is not.
3
There are hundreds of settler attacks on Palestinians each and every week. It's only when Jews are attacked that we hear about it from NYT. These so-called Price Tag attacks have been going on for over a decade often with soldiers watching and not lifting a finger to stop the violence against Arabs. Palestinians are apparently fed up with being attacked and are trying to turn the table.
US State Dept. classifies price-tag attacks as terrorism.
US State Dept. classifies price-tag attacks as terrorism.
10
Your comment is startling to me because the vast majority of commenters who opine on A perceived bias of the New York Times express the view that the New York Times will miss no opportunity to portray Israel in an unfavorable light. You are in a small minority indeed.
3
Based on recommendations, you don't seem to be in the majority.
1
@WestSider, Your post is nonsense. Israel is crawling with reporters, NGO's, so-called Human Rights Organizations, various European pro-Palestinian organizations, etc... Every time there is an incident between Jews and Arabs in the West Bank it is splashed all over the media. The reality is that incidents of Jews attacking Arabs are pretty rare, and when they happen they get plenty of publicity, and are also typically immediately widely condemned by the Israeli government (in contrast to the Arab leadership, that typically celebrates the murder of Jews by Arabs). Your implication that somehow hundreds of "settler attacks" are not reported in the media is ridiculous nonsense.
And if you listen to the knife attackers that are captured, they are all saying they are doing this to "defend Al Aqsa" - because they have been listening to the lies of their leaders and Imans who are making the false claims that the Israeli government wants to change the status quo on the Temple Mount.
And if you listen to the knife attackers that are captured, they are all saying they are doing this to "defend Al Aqsa" - because they have been listening to the lies of their leaders and Imans who are making the false claims that the Israeli government wants to change the status quo on the Temple Mount.
4
In reading this article. I am reminded of the recent riots we have had in cities like Baltimore and Ferguson. The violence and destruction of property. Then I am reminded of the civil rights movement of the 1960's. Where black people did not respond violently to their oppressors. Not only did they gain the support of other races. They gained the support of the world. The oppressor was seen being violent to the oppressed. They were the bad guys instead of the oppressed. Because the violence being exacted upon them was without provocation. Something can be said for leaving violence out of the protest. It is far more effective in my opinion. As for this land grab. The land was taken from Jordan not Palestine. So are the Palestinians in that area actually Jordanian?
15
"So are the Palestinians in that area actually Jordanian?"
If they are, then so is the land.
But Jordan gave up the land and the people on it to Israel.
Israel wants to keep the land and get rid of the people. As you do here, suggesting they are Jordanian and should just go away into that other country.
If they are, then so is the land.
But Jordan gave up the land and the people on it to Israel.
Israel wants to keep the land and get rid of the people. As you do here, suggesting they are Jordanian and should just go away into that other country.
4
Jordan was created in 1921 as part of the British Mandate. It is a Paestinean State.
6
In 1988 Jordan transferred the West Bank to the PLO.
This article does not discuss many of those Palestinians just killed by Israel who were not knife wielding assailants.
This last week, Israeli forces fired live ammo into a crowd of about 1,000 demonstrators. They shot down 66 young people. That is they shot 6.6% of the whole crowd. Six died immediately. Out of 60 others shot, some may have died after getting to medical care. http://www.pressherald.com/2015/10/10/six-killed-60-injured-in-clash-at-...
Those are some of the people killed in the count in this article.
This last week, Israeli forces fired live ammo into a crowd of about 1,000 demonstrators. They shot down 66 young people. That is they shot 6.6% of the whole crowd. Six died immediately. Out of 60 others shot, some may have died after getting to medical care. http://www.pressherald.com/2015/10/10/six-killed-60-injured-in-clash-at-...
Those are some of the people killed in the count in this article.
12
You forgot to mention that this was a violent protest that included the throwing of large rocks at the Israeli soldiers defending the border fence between Gaza and Israel from rushed by approximately 1000 Palestinians attempting to breach it.
You also failed to define "shot down," leaving the implication that the violent protesters heaving stones who were shot were shot dead. Another distortion.
If any readers are curious to get a sense of what this violent protest involved, please click on the link provided by Mark Thompson, above, and check out the photos.
You also failed to define "shot down," leaving the implication that the violent protesters heaving stones who were shot were shot dead. Another distortion.
If any readers are curious to get a sense of what this violent protest involved, please click on the link provided by Mark Thompson, above, and check out the photos.
4
Yes, this distorts much.
The two groups were separated by a considerable distance and an extensive fence system. Rifles far out range rocks. The shooters most certainly did not shoot in genuine self defense.
A short step back from the fence would have been complete safety. Instead, they chose to shoot down a large percentage of the crowd.
The two groups were separated by a considerable distance and an extensive fence system. Rifles far out range rocks. The shooters most certainly did not shoot in genuine self defense.
A short step back from the fence would have been complete safety. Instead, they chose to shoot down a large percentage of the crowd.
2
Mark, the link that you attach presents a very different picture than the wording in your post.
Arab rioters (which is a more accurate description than demonstrators) were rushing the border fence between Israel and Gaza repeatedly, trying to break it down. Israel and Gaza are at war. The Israeli soldiers repeated fired warning shots into the air, and only used live ammunition when the rioting continued. Every country has right and duty to protect its borders against its enemies.
Now, if at the height of our war in Iraq, a crowd of 1000 Iraqi rioters and tired to attack and break down the fence around a US base in Iraq, how do you think our soldiers would have reacted? You can bet there would have been more than six dead Iraqis in that crowd.
Arab rioters (which is a more accurate description than demonstrators) were rushing the border fence between Israel and Gaza repeatedly, trying to break it down. Israel and Gaza are at war. The Israeli soldiers repeated fired warning shots into the air, and only used live ammunition when the rioting continued. Every country has right and duty to protect its borders against its enemies.
Now, if at the height of our war in Iraq, a crowd of 1000 Iraqi rioters and tired to attack and break down the fence around a US base in Iraq, how do you think our soldiers would have reacted? You can bet there would have been more than six dead Iraqis in that crowd.
5
I am shocked, shocked, that the New York Times shows pictures of a Palestinian with a knife being shot dead on its front page without asking the question: "Could this person have been disarmed with less lethal force?" and the question: "Would an Israeli Jew with a knife be restrained in a different way?" The Israeli response to any threat is to immediate shoot to kill, in the form of extra-judicial killings. The idea seems to be is to make life unbearable for the Palestinians, and then kill them one by one as they erupt. Don't be complicit in this apology for excessive use of force, New York Times!
16
Ridiculous, hypothetical questions, reverse engineered from your point of view of the conflict.
But I will say, if someone was stabbing my colleague, soldier-in-arms or family member you bet I'd try to make his life unbearable, and so would you.
But I will say, if someone was stabbing my colleague, soldier-in-arms or family member you bet I'd try to make his life unbearable, and so would you.
16
Just two days ago, Israeli police while breaking up a fight in a town of Bat Yam, a suburb of Tel Aviv, shot dead a Jewish man who threatened them with a knife. Your posting is just a reflection of deep anti-Jewish and anti-Israeli prejudice.
http://www.jpost.com/Breaking-News/Man-critically-hurt-in-Bat-Yam-fight-...
http://www.jpost.com/Breaking-News/Man-critically-hurt-in-Bat-Yam-fight-...
12
Amazing! The Palestinian you refer to was stabbing an Israeli soldier and was wearing a 'PRESS' vest to infiltrate a secure area. The picture shows a bloodied Israeli soldier and the terrorist in the act. In that scenario, "Please stop, pretty please" would not have been too effective.
No jury in the US would have had an issue with the shooting.
No jury in the US would have had an issue with the shooting.
7
The map tells the whole story. Israel has used guns and terror to annex large areas of Palestinian lands.
If you steal my farm, I will fight you. If you lock me into a ghetto, I will fight you. If you burn my child to death, I will fight you.
For every Israeli killed, Israel kills as many as 100 Palestinians. How can we morally and financially support Israel?
If you steal my farm, I will fight you. If you lock me into a ghetto, I will fight you. If you burn my child to death, I will fight you.
For every Israeli killed, Israel kills as many as 100 Palestinians. How can we morally and financially support Israel?
15
Every political map on the globe "tells a story"!
Your own California, for example, has a map that tells a fascinating yarn. And if only the maps of European nations could speak, what tales they would tell. Soothing bedtime stories? Uh, not so much.
So what's your point?
Your own California, for example, has a map that tells a fascinating yarn. And if only the maps of European nations could speak, what tales they would tell. Soothing bedtime stories? Uh, not so much.
So what's your point?
2
Let's stop pretending this is about the lack of progress a peace agreement.
This is about the Arab Palestinian population (the none Arab Palestinian population have not participated in this evil) wanting all of Israel.
The reason negotiations have been going nowhere is because as a prerequisite to negotiations the P.A. want is Israel to agree to a policy of the right of return which everyone has acknowledges will make Israel a Arab Muslim nation sooner or later.
This is their way of putting pressure on Israel as the world outside of the Jews do not accept Israel as A Jewish nation and therefore have no problem with this happening and therefore they blame Israel for the lack of progress and will try to force Israel to agree to this demand the P.A. is making.
Israel will never accept this demand and as long as this demand is made there will never be a agreement and Arab children will die which is a tragedy as they are not responsible as they are only doing what they do because their leaders tell them what to do and are therefore these children are innocent victims in this game the P.A. know they can not win.
This is about the Arab Palestinian population (the none Arab Palestinian population have not participated in this evil) wanting all of Israel.
The reason negotiations have been going nowhere is because as a prerequisite to negotiations the P.A. want is Israel to agree to a policy of the right of return which everyone has acknowledges will make Israel a Arab Muslim nation sooner or later.
This is their way of putting pressure on Israel as the world outside of the Jews do not accept Israel as A Jewish nation and therefore have no problem with this happening and therefore they blame Israel for the lack of progress and will try to force Israel to agree to this demand the P.A. is making.
Israel will never accept this demand and as long as this demand is made there will never be a agreement and Arab children will die which is a tragedy as they are not responsible as they are only doing what they do because their leaders tell them what to do and are therefore these children are innocent victims in this game the P.A. know they can not win.
24
"This is about the Arab Palestinian population (the none Arab Palestinian population have not participated in this evil) wanting all of Israel."
No, it has become Israel wanting all of the rest of the land without the people who live on it.
No, it has become Israel wanting all of the rest of the land without the people who live on it.
6
Do not get distracted by the bottom line. Palestinians are a violent people.
Once a person commits a crime like murder why do they have any rights.
Therefore the bias press reports as if it's a question? Palestinians are attacking people with knives! The only thing we should be asking is why is Abbas, the Press and President Obama does not condemn violence.
Regarding the Israelis, do you really want to say that the Israelis are violent people who are killing innocent people?
Fact; The IDF has the lowest innocent casualty rate of any army in the world. No one reports that.
Fact; The US military consults with the Israelis on how to lower the US military innocent casualty rates in battle.
If you all heard the accusations against the IDF you would see how ridiculous they sound.
By the way, turn the clock back to 1966. The Arabs ignored the UN Council and had no interest in building Israel as a society. This is the reason the UN Council voted to make Israel a State. They saw how much more the Israelis accomplished with so little at the time.
My mother remembers clearly her orphanage being bombed by the Arabs. She saw first hand.
The Palestinians, Hammas, all those who are against Israel either has a lack of information or is simply anti-Semitic. It's that simple.
Once a person commits a crime like murder why do they have any rights.
Therefore the bias press reports as if it's a question? Palestinians are attacking people with knives! The only thing we should be asking is why is Abbas, the Press and President Obama does not condemn violence.
Regarding the Israelis, do you really want to say that the Israelis are violent people who are killing innocent people?
Fact; The IDF has the lowest innocent casualty rate of any army in the world. No one reports that.
Fact; The US military consults with the Israelis on how to lower the US military innocent casualty rates in battle.
If you all heard the accusations against the IDF you would see how ridiculous they sound.
By the way, turn the clock back to 1966. The Arabs ignored the UN Council and had no interest in building Israel as a society. This is the reason the UN Council voted to make Israel a State. They saw how much more the Israelis accomplished with so little at the time.
My mother remembers clearly her orphanage being bombed by the Arabs. She saw first hand.
The Palestinians, Hammas, all those who are against Israel either has a lack of information or is simply anti-Semitic. It's that simple.
18
"Palestinians are a violent people."
By any measure, such as numbers killed, the Israelis are a pretty violent people too. That does not tell us much about who is seeking justice, and who is seeking something else here.
By any measure, such as numbers killed, the Israelis are a pretty violent people too. That does not tell us much about who is seeking justice, and who is seeking something else here.
5
Violence begets violence. What is wrong with the Israeli's defending themselves?
4
The companion article headline:
"Anger Spreads With 5 Attacks on Israelis"
Uhh, didn't anger spread with the killing of Palestiaians by any Israeli who decided to kill a Palestinian? Burning up a family, didn't that spread anger? Wait, they are Palestiaians, subhuman untermensch according to some of their zionist killers. Anger cannot spread among them.
Get rid of the vermin! Never again!
"Anger Spreads With 5 Attacks on Israelis"
Uhh, didn't anger spread with the killing of Palestiaians by any Israeli who decided to kill a Palestinian? Burning up a family, didn't that spread anger? Wait, they are Palestiaians, subhuman untermensch according to some of their zionist killers. Anger cannot spread among them.
Get rid of the vermin! Never again!
12
The "ugly barrier" that Prof. Hamed hates, like the Wall that Israel built, were erected to stop murderers and suicide bombers. All of the complaints about barriers and searches and disruption of Palestinian life have a common underlying them: the ABSOLUTE REFUSAL of Palestinians to recognize Jewish rights and Jewish connections to Jerusalem and Israel. When Palestinians, and increasingly, their leftist and anti-Semitic rightist supporters speak of "occupation" they are speaking of ALL OF ISRAEL. Until and unless they release themselves from these mind-forged manacles that preclude the right of Jews to continue forever in their ancestral homeland there will be no peace, there will be "bubbling despair in Jerusalem," tragedies to be mourned in Arab and Israeli households. But to do this, they must overcome an ancient Islamic habit of supremacy and the notion that wherever they once ruled it is Dar El Islam in perpetuity. Yes, they are the fathers and mothers of their own catastrophe.
28
As usual Israel tries to paint itself an innocent victim, is if it’s racist policies and actions toward Palestinians (in both East Jerusalem and the occupied territories) have nothing to do with the violence. The bottom line is Israel cannot be democratic and racist at the same time.
The techniques used by Israel are no different than what was used against blacks in the US or South African blacks in the past. "These people are criminals/terrorists and therefore any violence and denial of rights is justified to protect our innocent victims".
Boycotts, Disinvestment and Sanctions (BDS) has worked in the past for other oppressed populations, and is the only strategy that will correct this. It is far too easy for Israelis to lament the violence while living comfortable lives and doing nothing. Israeli leaders know this, that is why they are furiously working to prevent BDS!
The techniques used by Israel are no different than what was used against blacks in the US or South African blacks in the past. "These people are criminals/terrorists and therefore any violence and denial of rights is justified to protect our innocent victims".
Boycotts, Disinvestment and Sanctions (BDS) has worked in the past for other oppressed populations, and is the only strategy that will correct this. It is far too easy for Israelis to lament the violence while living comfortable lives and doing nothing. Israeli leaders know this, that is why they are furiously working to prevent BDS!
14
When was the last time PA Arabs held internationally supervised general elections ?
Why do the Arabs of East Jerusalem and all of Israel's Arab minority, vehemently reject the idea of becoming PA citizens, calling it "racist" ?
Is it out of some misplaced "love" for the Jewish State Israel ?
Why do the Arabs of East Jerusalem and all of Israel's Arab minority, vehemently reject the idea of becoming PA citizens, calling it "racist" ?
Is it out of some misplaced "love" for the Jewish State Israel ?
7
A biased article
You seem to downplay the fact that Palestinian citizens living within their midst are attacking Israeli citizens and Israel is clamping down to stop this.
What ignited this : Jewish desire to have access to pray at a holy site Palestinians insist belongs exclusively to them
This was Jewish before the Palestinians ever lived there
You seem to downplay the fact that Palestinian citizens living within their midst are attacking Israeli citizens and Israel is clamping down to stop this.
What ignited this : Jewish desire to have access to pray at a holy site Palestinians insist belongs exclusively to them
This was Jewish before the Palestinians ever lived there
18
It would be helpful to point out, not merely that housing permits are hard for Palestinians to obtain, but that this is part of a deliberate policy by Israel to demographically re-engineer the city by moving Israeli Jews into the East and forcing Palestinians out. That this is so has been well known for years. The policy is documented in book by former aides to the Jerusalem mayor: Amir Cheshin, Bill Hutman, and Avi Melamed, SEPARATE AND UNEQUAL: THE INSIDE STORY OF ISRAELI RULE IN EAST JERUSALEM, Harvard University Press.
Palestinians do not just "feel" discriminated against; by any reasonable measure, they are discriminated against. And to say that much or most of the world considers East Jerusalem to be occupied is like saying many or most climate scientists believe in anthropogenic climate change. It is an unnecessary accommodation of unreasonable opinions.
Discriminatory housing policy was, of course, one of the cornerstones of South African apartheid. There is no reason why NYT should adopt the language of the international human rights community when discussing other troubled regions, but treat Israel differently; as if all grievances against it were a mere matter of subjective perception.
Palestinians do not just "feel" discriminated against; by any reasonable measure, they are discriminated against. And to say that much or most of the world considers East Jerusalem to be occupied is like saying many or most climate scientists believe in anthropogenic climate change. It is an unnecessary accommodation of unreasonable opinions.
Discriminatory housing policy was, of course, one of the cornerstones of South African apartheid. There is no reason why NYT should adopt the language of the international human rights community when discussing other troubled regions, but treat Israel differently; as if all grievances against it were a mere matter of subjective perception.
14
Population figures:
1967 195,700 Jews 54,963 Muslims 12,646 Christians 263,307 total
2011 497,000 Jews 281,000 Muslims 14,000 Christians 801,000 total
Jewish population increased 150%. Muslim population increased 450%. Christian population largely unchanged.
Worst ethnic cleansers in history?
Or do actual facts confuse you BDS'ers?
1967 195,700 Jews 54,963 Muslims 12,646 Christians 263,307 total
2011 497,000 Jews 281,000 Muslims 14,000 Christians 801,000 total
Jewish population increased 150%. Muslim population increased 450%. Christian population largely unchanged.
Worst ethnic cleansers in history?
Or do actual facts confuse you BDS'ers?
14
I dont understand the israeli government. How wise it would be to invest in the infrastructure in east jerusalem, the west bank and gaza. Why not build schools and medical centers. why not help the palenstinians to help themselves. even before you talk about resolution just goven your occupied territories. i am a jew i a see this. making people desparate does nothing for peace
48
Desperate conditions create desperate people. Despair and poverty do not create peace.
4
Why should Israel invest in a place that Palestinians want as their capital? Let their patrons in Saudi Arabia and Iran build up the infrastructure. Israel should not invest a dime in territory it will give up for peace.
Good heavens. Where have you been since 1948?
Do you really think the Israelis haven't tried to help?
Do you really think the Israelis haven't tried to help?
3
Both sides are at fault (obviously). Nothing will change until both sides choose peace.
That said, there is overwhelming agreement outside hard-line Netanyahu supporters that Israel is persecuting Palestinians, occupying their land, and must be the first to change (e.g., by stopping settlements). That's not going to happen and won't work. Israel tried unilateral change when they exited Gaza in 2005. The result was a Hamas takeover and years of attacks.
If Hamas and the Palestinians disavowed terrorism, recognized Israel's right to exist, and agreed to engage in peace talks (and followed through), the pressure on Israel to participate would be enormous. Even the United States would have to nudge, or push, our ally forward.
Israel has no reason to negotiate (right or wrong), and the Palestinians keep giving Israel reasons not to. Even rhough there is a great deal of support for the Palestinian cause, including among Israelis and Jews who are fed up with Netanyahu's aggressive policies.
The Palestinians are playing the long game. They are patient and committed and ruthless. They think demographics and history are on their side. Perhaps they're right.
If the Palestinians wanted peace now, they could take steps to start the process. It's unlikely they will. The only other hope is a post-Netanyahu leadership that tries (again) for peace.
Is there anything that can change the ugly status quo for the better? For the foreseeable future, it doesn't seem like it.
That said, there is overwhelming agreement outside hard-line Netanyahu supporters that Israel is persecuting Palestinians, occupying their land, and must be the first to change (e.g., by stopping settlements). That's not going to happen and won't work. Israel tried unilateral change when they exited Gaza in 2005. The result was a Hamas takeover and years of attacks.
If Hamas and the Palestinians disavowed terrorism, recognized Israel's right to exist, and agreed to engage in peace talks (and followed through), the pressure on Israel to participate would be enormous. Even the United States would have to nudge, or push, our ally forward.
Israel has no reason to negotiate (right or wrong), and the Palestinians keep giving Israel reasons not to. Even rhough there is a great deal of support for the Palestinian cause, including among Israelis and Jews who are fed up with Netanyahu's aggressive policies.
The Palestinians are playing the long game. They are patient and committed and ruthless. They think demographics and history are on their side. Perhaps they're right.
If the Palestinians wanted peace now, they could take steps to start the process. It's unlikely they will. The only other hope is a post-Netanyahu leadership that tries (again) for peace.
Is there anything that can change the ugly status quo for the better? For the foreseeable future, it doesn't seem like it.
6
I agree with everything in your comment except for the first sentence. In fact, I think that the remainder of your comment belies the first sentence.
4
How can both sides be at fault? there is a wrong side and a right side in every conflict.
3
Diana --
"How can both sides be at fault?"
Are you serious? Much more often than not, both sides bear some degree of blame in a conflict situation. Not invariably, of course, but more often than not.
The world is not a simple place. Simplistic thinking will not help us negotiate it successfully.
"How can both sides be at fault?"
Are you serious? Much more often than not, both sides bear some degree of blame in a conflict situation. Not invariably, of course, but more often than not.
The world is not a simple place. Simplistic thinking will not help us negotiate it successfully.
Ms. Rudoren writes that Israel "captured" all of Jerusalem in the 1967 war. Apparently she does not remember that Jordan had captured the Eastern half of Jerusalem from Israel in 1949 as it attempted to destroy the Israeli state, nor that Jordan lost that land as it attacked Israel in an another attempt to destroy the state. This small neglect of detail only underlines the one-sided nature of the article. Mr. Fua Abu Hamed, a "successful" man who appears to have reasonably integrated into Israeli society reports that he feels that Israel wants to take him and his fellow Arabs out of the city. Perhaps we should compare his current existence with that of the Jewish communities of Jerusalem in 1948. While the city had a Jewish majority from the 19th century and Jewish inhabitants for thousands of years, the Jordanian conquest ended that completely. Although the armistice agreement guaranteed the protection of Jewish heritage sites and to allow Jewish access to those sights, the Arabs promptly destroyed every synagogue and desecrated the 3,000 year old Mount of Olives cemetery. This 'viewpoint' is consistent with the study of school texts by Professors Bar Tal and Adwan, Victims Of Our Own Narratives, which notes that Arab texts do not criticize Arab actions except for events from ancient history. The Arab ethnic cleansing of Judea and Samaria and Jordan's illegal annexation of the "West Bank of Jordan" do not seem to exist, not in the Arab mind or in the New York Times.
24
End the occupation, remove Israelis from all but the largest/closest 2 or 3 setlements, and have UN troops keep the peace.
Of course - let's be honest...for all the propaganda, Likud Israel doesn't want peace... it wants all of Palestine.
Of course - let's be honest...for all the propaganda, Likud Israel doesn't want peace... it wants all of Palestine.
15
I am no fan of Likud, but the naïveté reflected in your comment is startling.
If only Israel could be more like those peace – seeking Palestinians, then everything would be OK!
LOL
If only Israel could be more like those peace – seeking Palestinians, then everything would be OK!
LOL
6
@huh
which side ethnically cleansed the other and has tanks, fighter jets and nukes?
I think you're the one who's naive - that there is blame on both sides, surely, does not mean that there is 'equal' blame.
The Palestinians want their own state on what remains of their own land. The government of Israel wants to colonize then ethnically cleanse them.
See the difference?
which side ethnically cleansed the other and has tanks, fighter jets and nukes?
I think you're the one who's naive - that there is blame on both sides, surely, does not mean that there is 'equal' blame.
The Palestinians want their own state on what remains of their own land. The government of Israel wants to colonize then ethnically cleanse them.
See the difference?
It was the American Operation Nickle Grass that saved the Israelis from annihilation at the hands of a pan-arab coalition in 1973. Understanding this geopolitical reality, that militarily Israel is invulnerable due to American backing, is the key to understanding our situation. The Israelis failed to cleanse the west bank in years past and now unhappily manage this terrorist violence from the so called Palestinians. I am sure in their heart of hearts they would like to cleanse the Palestinian territories, just like they did in the rest of Israel, but cannot due so as the multicultural united states would be forced to withdraw its support, leaving Israel in the Jaws of its many enemies. So, If we in the US are going to support the western people in their segregation from the arabs that is one thing, but pretending we care about the arabs while feeding the isrealis weapons is quite another...I think the world sees through it.
4
To paraphrase Golda Meir, "there will be peace only when they decide to love their children more than they hate us."
Still waiting.
Still waiting.
19
There will be peace only when you decide that their lives matter as much as yours do.
Still waiting.
Still waiting.
2
I find it unreasonable to expect Isreal to sit by and do nothing while people who are taught to hate Jews since they were children, attack innocent civilians. Some even driving their cars into bus stops killing and wounding unsuspecting people. These attacks are carried out by cowards who would never approach an armed soldier or policeman but only those unaware.
I also find it hard to expect Isreal to sit across the table from people who won't even acknowledge Isreal's right to exist, but insist on peace talks. How in the world do you make peace with those kinds of people?
I also find it hard to expect Isreal to sit across the table from people who won't even acknowledge Isreal's right to exist, but insist on peace talks. How in the world do you make peace with those kinds of people?
16
While I am militantly pro-Israel and furious about the psychotic wave of stabbings and shootings by lone wolf terrorists from East Jerusalem, as usual I find Ms. Rudoren's journalistic authenticity not at issue in any sense, because from a strictly objective journalistic point of view, it is helpful to understand the social, cultural and economic divide at play in the "two Jerusalems." However, and on the other hand, the Israeli government has no alternative but to carry forth an aggressive effort to completely squash this epidemic of murder, a mini-Holocaust at play on the streets of every city, town and area of the State of Israel. No civilized nation would tolerate such an outbreak of psychotic violence, and so far the Israeli response has been measured, rooted in law, and for the most part appropriate. Kudos to the Times for sticking to its approach, and for moving the discussion forward as all good journalistic investigation must do.
6
Yes using ultra modern weapons to shoot to death kids with rocks and knives is really the standard for measured lawful response -- uhunh, makes sense. The resistance to occupation is psychotic and not the occupation itself -- makes total sense, buddy, in a war is peace, love is hate, 1984 way of a looking at the world.
2
Brian – –
What is your proposed solution to the Israeli – Palestinian situation? Seriously. What should Israel offer that it has not offered to try to bring an end to this ongoing misery? What, if anything, should the Palestinians offer? What is the right outcome? When I read comments like the numerous comments you have posted to this article, I am always left wondering what the answer to those questions are. What's the QED?
What is your proposed solution to the Israeli – Palestinian situation? Seriously. What should Israel offer that it has not offered to try to bring an end to this ongoing misery? What, if anything, should the Palestinians offer? What is the right outcome? When I read comments like the numerous comments you have posted to this article, I am always left wondering what the answer to those questions are. What's the QED?
1
Muslim attachment to Jerusalem is in inverse proportion to their control over it. That it became a backwater of no consequence is attested by every travel writer through the 20th century as well as by contemporary illustrations and later photographs. It was never Muslim capital city, Ramallah was the administrative center, which is why Arafat's selection of that city was not random.
Palestinian Arabs have consistently refused peace overtures from Israel giving them up to 95% of lands over which their international representatives had expressly and formally abandoned any sovereignty as far back as 1964.
Why is there no Arabic word for the land comprising so-called "historic Palestine"? Why call it by a Western name unpronounceable in Arabic?
For there to be peace, the Palestinian Arabs need to accept what the rest of the world did in 1922 with the establishment of the Mandate for Palestine: the Jews are the indigenous people of those lands and have an internationally recognized right to return, settle and govern in their historical homeland.
Lands that the Arab imperialists conquered in the 7th century, and then lost to non-Arab imperialists beginning in the 14th century, does not revert to them but to those indigenous people who liberated them, and that includes not only Israel but Spain and the Balkans too.
Supporting a-historical Arab claims is to support their theological rejectionism of Jewish rights and their attempt to restore their imperial conquest.
Palestinian Arabs have consistently refused peace overtures from Israel giving them up to 95% of lands over which their international representatives had expressly and formally abandoned any sovereignty as far back as 1964.
Why is there no Arabic word for the land comprising so-called "historic Palestine"? Why call it by a Western name unpronounceable in Arabic?
For there to be peace, the Palestinian Arabs need to accept what the rest of the world did in 1922 with the establishment of the Mandate for Palestine: the Jews are the indigenous people of those lands and have an internationally recognized right to return, settle and govern in their historical homeland.
Lands that the Arab imperialists conquered in the 7th century, and then lost to non-Arab imperialists beginning in the 14th century, does not revert to them but to those indigenous people who liberated them, and that includes not only Israel but Spain and the Balkans too.
Supporting a-historical Arab claims is to support their theological rejectionism of Jewish rights and their attempt to restore their imperial conquest.
22
How I wish for an amnesia bomb, something that could wipe from memory grievances, real and imagined, from past decades, centuries, millennia. Given the petty, irrational, and confrontational nature of most people, it may not work, but it might be worth a try.
And Jerusalem would be at the top of my list of targets.
And Jerusalem would be at the top of my list of targets.
1
Instead of "amnesia bomb" why doesn't the U.S. demand that Palestinians stop the daily barrage of anti-Semitism in the mosques,schools, homes, media, etc.as well as the militant indoctrination in kindergartens and schools?
There will be no peace until the Palestinians do this.
4
Let us remember:
The annexation of East Jerusalem was condemned by the United Nations Security Council as "a violation of international law" and declared "null and void" in United Nations Security Council Resolution 478 and has not been recognized by the international community.
The annexation of East Jerusalem was condemned by the United Nations Security Council as "a violation of international law" and declared "null and void" in United Nations Security Council Resolution 478 and has not been recognized by the international community.
9
By operation of Article 80 of the UN Charter, all those resolutions are themselves null and of no legal effect to the extent they seek to limit internationally recognized rights previously conferred by the international community on the Jewish people through the League of Nations Mandate for Palestine of 1922. As it happens, none of those resolutions is legally binding anyway.
1
Arabs make up 40% of the population of Jerusalem. They are able to vote but do not as a protest. If they want to change their living conditions, they should vote. Voting is a much more effective change agent than knife attacks.
12
Actually ending the brutal occupation and seige of Palestine would be the most effective change agent. Will you support that?
2
The longest occupation of an indigenous people in modern history, with entire generations of kids raised under military law, watching their parents abused and their people treated as unequal to their occupiers, and we (even with a straight face) wonder what the problem is? This is so surreal as to be height of absurdity!
10
Over the past 80 years there have been large numbers of settlement offers. All offered by one side, rejected by the second. Has there ever been a Palestinian offer which would leave an intact Israel?
So, it may be true that the conflict is unresolved after many years. It takes two parties to resolve a conflict. So far, one prefers victimhood to independence. One prefers a dream which will never come to a state which will require that they take responsibility for themselves. One prefers that outsiders negotiate on their behalf so as to maintain the purity of their delusions.
So, it may be true that the conflict is unresolved after many years. It takes two parties to resolve a conflict. So far, one prefers victimhood to independence. One prefers a dream which will never come to a state which will require that they take responsibility for themselves. One prefers that outsiders negotiate on their behalf so as to maintain the purity of their delusions.
4
Never ending cycle of hate, mistrust, fear, maiming and death. About time the U.S. ends both financial and military support for all parties and let them "have at it" like we do in so many other conflicts in the world. We have enough problems here at home.
1
This is not a civil rights case like the South, it is a case of two national groups with claims to the same area. One side (the Palestinian one) has consistently chosen the path of violence and incitement over peaceful co-existence. The fact that innocent people are forced into indignity is directly tied to the security concerns. Every time Israel has made it easier to travel or reduced checkpoints it has led to car bombings, stabbings and murder. While regrettable to the people who are not terrorists there is far to many people who would be happy to try and become social media heroes by blowing themselves up or murdering a Jew. This is not different from what is going on in Iraq, Syria, and elsewhere in the Arab world. The youth are disgusted at the squandering of their opportunities to live in the world and are indulging in a fantasy of Islamic power to try and boost their self esteem. They resort to terror in all of those areas for the same reason. For Shiites in Iraq, it is to kill the infidel Sunni and vice versa, here it is to kill the Jew. It won't work of course because Israel is not the problem, their leaders and their parents who believe in an irretrievable past are.
17
If the 1967 borders were an issue, why wasn't there peace in 1966?
15
Amazing. Everyone has expert opinions on how Israel is the oppressor of muslim aspirations to progress and coexistence. All this is happening while all around the world, from Gaza though Iraq to Pakistan, it's becoming painfully evident that all muslim societies are demonstrably unfit to produce either the citizens or the governments capable of achieving either goal. They have instead become experts at finger pointing, devising ingenious killing methods, advancing new public and private corruption schemes and generally producing ever more hateful ways to view just about anyone else outside their tribes. Everyone looking at Israel's troubles seems aware of this, yet few rise to stand against this state of affairs. While Israel may be able and willing to correct some of its failings, blind and unrelenting hatred of Jews is a vastly more widespread axiom of existence than Jews will ever comprehend.
31
One only has to remember all the propaganda of Bibi Netanyahu one day before the last election, namely that Arab citizens were 'bussed in masses' to the polling places, and his remark in one of the sprawling illegal settlements in the West Bank that under his watch there would never be a Palestinian state.
All this propaganda helped him to assemble an even more arch-right wing parliamentary majority than before.
As a Jew who visited Israel quite a few times, I am utterly ashamed of what is happening in that beautiful country.
When one member of a Palestinian family is accused of a terrorist act, even one that did not cause any fatality, the family home will be razed to the ground by the IDF. Germany penned a word for that behaviour during the last century. It is called 'Sippenhaft', which loosely translated means that the whole family clan, adult and children alike, is responsible for the action of one of their own.
As long as there is not a peaceful two state solution, and the end to ever more sprawling illegal settlement outside the Green Line, this bloody conflict will become even worse.
All this propaganda helped him to assemble an even more arch-right wing parliamentary majority than before.
As a Jew who visited Israel quite a few times, I am utterly ashamed of what is happening in that beautiful country.
When one member of a Palestinian family is accused of a terrorist act, even one that did not cause any fatality, the family home will be razed to the ground by the IDF. Germany penned a word for that behaviour during the last century. It is called 'Sippenhaft', which loosely translated means that the whole family clan, adult and children alike, is responsible for the action of one of their own.
As long as there is not a peaceful two state solution, and the end to ever more sprawling illegal settlement outside the Green Line, this bloody conflict will become even worse.
20
I have been working in Hebron, Palestine for several months, and am increasingly disappointed by both the Israeli reaction to what is perceived as 'terrorism' and an international response that portrays Palestinians as militant and radicalized without any sympathy for their distress.
The other day, I left a meeting with the Hebron Minister of Health - we spoke about the need for increased environmental education in schools, and about his enthusiasm for a hand-washing campaign. I drove past Hebron University, where a large group of students gathered to march out of the city, where Israeli soldiers were no doubt waiting. I decided to join them, walking in silence as a group of women behind me chanted for peace and men ahead of me lamented the loss of a young friend. As an American observer with no native connection to Palestine, even I felt the day's emotion (which turned into distress as soldiers began firing tear gas at us long before any protesters were in rock-throwing range.)
What a cruel turn of events: that the people of King David, the shepherd who overthrew the mighty Goliath with a slingshot and a well-placed stone, now shoot at teenagers carrying rocks.
Israelis face legitimate security concerns, but they do themselves no favors by forgetting their past struggle with oppression. Goliath fell, too - unless Israel adopts more humane, just practices (in keeping with international law), Palestinians will continue to exercise their right to resist occupation.
The other day, I left a meeting with the Hebron Minister of Health - we spoke about the need for increased environmental education in schools, and about his enthusiasm for a hand-washing campaign. I drove past Hebron University, where a large group of students gathered to march out of the city, where Israeli soldiers were no doubt waiting. I decided to join them, walking in silence as a group of women behind me chanted for peace and men ahead of me lamented the loss of a young friend. As an American observer with no native connection to Palestine, even I felt the day's emotion (which turned into distress as soldiers began firing tear gas at us long before any protesters were in rock-throwing range.)
What a cruel turn of events: that the people of King David, the shepherd who overthrew the mighty Goliath with a slingshot and a well-placed stone, now shoot at teenagers carrying rocks.
Israelis face legitimate security concerns, but they do themselves no favors by forgetting their past struggle with oppression. Goliath fell, too - unless Israel adopts more humane, just practices (in keeping with international law), Palestinians will continue to exercise their right to resist occupation.
70
Well written.
Morality is here to stay. The law is here to stay. The Palestinians are here to stay. ...... Israel?
Morality is here to stay. The law is here to stay. The Palestinians are here to stay. ...... Israel?
1
Rocks and knives kill. Jews have to defend themselves against murderous attacks. Your denial of the right of self-defense for Jews is shameful.
9
Israel soldiers and civilians have been killed by Palestinians throwing rocks at them.
7
More than a dozen "suspected assailants have been shot dead by Israelis" for the killing of seven Israeli Jews. Palestinians are incensed not just at the severity of the crackdown but at the increase in Jewish religious activity in the Old City.
These competing religious convictions are the sources of all evil. The Western Wall is a holy place of prayer for Jewish pilgrims, bringing them close to the al-Aqsa mosque, which is sacred to Muslims. In both Palestinian society and in the wider Arab world, the increased religious activity is viewed as a kind of attack on the Islamic identity.
Neither Jews nor Arabs should own Jerusalem. It should be placed under neutral administration.
These competing religious convictions are the sources of all evil. The Western Wall is a holy place of prayer for Jewish pilgrims, bringing them close to the al-Aqsa mosque, which is sacred to Muslims. In both Palestinian society and in the wider Arab world, the increased religious activity is viewed as a kind of attack on the Islamic identity.
Neither Jews nor Arabs should own Jerusalem. It should be placed under neutral administration.
11
"In both Palestinian society and in the wider Arab world, the increased religious activity is viewed as a kind of attack on the Islamic identity."
So what, that just settles it? The extreme, violent, fanatical hypersensitivity among some Muslims about Jewish people praying openly NEAR (not in) the al-Aqsa mosque needs to be respected because...what exactly? Jerusalem ought to be treated like it's a city in Saudi Arabia, where walking around in public holding a Bible is probably a crime punishable by death?
So what, that just settles it? The extreme, violent, fanatical hypersensitivity among some Muslims about Jewish people praying openly NEAR (not in) the al-Aqsa mosque needs to be respected because...what exactly? Jerusalem ought to be treated like it's a city in Saudi Arabia, where walking around in public holding a Bible is probably a crime punishable by death?
27
It was placed under neurtral administration in1948. Where did that get us after the entire arab world tried to murder the Jews who were living there in a war of attempted extermination? Why does the world ignore history?
1
You forget to mention the fact that 70 Israelis have been wounded by Palestinian terrorism.
3
The anti Israel bias in this article is so strong that there was no intent to try to fairly present Israel in any fair light. As an example, the article states, "East Jerusalem has been a hotbed since July 2014, when Jewish extremists kidnapped and murdered Muhammad Abu Khdeir, a 16-year-old from the Shuafat neighborhood." It completely ignores the fact that this extremist reaction was caused by the kidnapping and murder of Israeli children by organized Palestinian terrorist groups. Israel, not East Jerusalem or the West Bank, is under siege. I doubt in modern times there has been any nation facing equivalent pressures and continuous actual threats of complete destruction for nearly 70 years. Those who equate Israel to the pre Civil War US or the apartheid South Africa, ignore the obvious fact that Israeli policies are strong reactions to a continuous violent refusal to negotiate any solution. Even in the face of this Israel offers full citizenship and voting rights to Palestinians who refuse for fear of what thier own people will do to those who accept. The Palestinians are as much or more their own worst enemies as Israel has ever been or will ever be.
57
The fact that refugee camps still exist says it all. Imagine todays million refugees in Europe being placed in camps for 50 years Yet the Arab world has failed to absorb their brethren. Very un-Christian of them.
5
This is so obvious that the fact that the author did not address it shows the entire intent of the article.
3
Tullymd --
Your point is well taken.
A contrast:
Between 750,000 and 1 million Jews were expelled from Arab nations in response to the establishment and defense of Israel. Those expelled innocents lost their homes, and, in many cases, everything they owned.
They, their children, and their grandchildren rebuilt successful lives for themselves in nations around the world. And Israel, of course, was in the lead in welcoming and successfully integrating fellow Jews.
Arab nations took a very different approach to Palestinians, shutting them up in camps and using them, generation after generation, as human pawns.
Your point is well taken.
A contrast:
Between 750,000 and 1 million Jews were expelled from Arab nations in response to the establishment and defense of Israel. Those expelled innocents lost their homes, and, in many cases, everything they owned.
They, their children, and their grandchildren rebuilt successful lives for themselves in nations around the world. And Israel, of course, was in the lead in welcoming and successfully integrating fellow Jews.
Arab nations took a very different approach to Palestinians, shutting them up in camps and using them, generation after generation, as human pawns.
10
Let's be realistic and let's be fair. Enemies don't reside in your country. If they come for business or for pleasure they must be under heavy radar.
Fair, in all fairness we are not fair to ourselves to let people who hate us and want to take our country away from us, and still live in our country. This is not possible or feasible or normal. We make trouble for ourselves and that is the God's Honest Truth!
Fair, in all fairness we are not fair to ourselves to let people who hate us and want to take our country away from us, and still live in our country. This is not possible or feasible or normal. We make trouble for ourselves and that is the God's Honest Truth!
13
Strangely the mayhem inflicted by the IDF and Israeli settlers on Palestinians on a daily basis goes completely unreported by the US media. These are a daily reality for Palestinians living under occupation and oppression though. It has been so for decades now. and has only worsened under Netanyahu.
22
"Goes completely on reported by the US media"? What US media are you consuming over there in Holland? Are you limiting yourself to Fox News?
Second, query whether the Palestinians' unfortunate daily reality of checkpoints, searches, the presence of armed troops, etc., might just be a reaction to something. Something that starts with a T ....
Second, query whether the Palestinians' unfortunate daily reality of checkpoints, searches, the presence of armed troops, etc., might just be a reaction to something. Something that starts with a T ....
5
13 year old boys running around stabbing children buying candy is a reaction to what exactly? A loyal employee of an Israeli company with full Israeli citizenship and a good job suddenly decides to run down a pedestrian and hack him with a meat cleaver is a reaction to what exactly? Justify this if you want... but this behavior is animalistic and will be met with extreme violence if it does not stop.
4
ross --
You misinterpreted my comment. My comment means the opposite of what you thought it meant. The T was for terrorism. Palestinian terrorism. The inevitable Israeli response to terroristic acts was the imposition of checkpoints, etc.
You misinterpreted my comment. My comment means the opposite of what you thought it meant. The T was for terrorism. Palestinian terrorism. The inevitable Israeli response to terroristic acts was the imposition of checkpoints, etc.
2
Collectively, Arabs who aspire to live here, could have resolved this multiple times since 1918 but they choose not too. Now they should consider themselves lucky to be treated as well, which is not that well, as Native Americans have been treated. They should request reservation status and receive health and educational benefits from israeli tax payers.
6
That we need to learn to live at peace with our neighbors. Some simple research would answer your questions but of course that was not your intention at all, was it?
5
How can the Israel's and Palestinian's ever resolve ownership of Jerusalem? Then add in the Christians who have many holy sites in Jerusalem. The only way I can see Jerusalem at peace is as an international city with an international peace force from Europe, Africa and East Asia that is even handed and fair to both sides and respectful to all. If this International force brings peace to Jerusalem then expand it to the West Bank with power to stop new Israel settlements.
9
The only problem is that neithet Israel nor a future Palestinian state would ever embrace this otherwise sensible idea. Many Palestinians and those Israelis who are of the lunatic fundamentalist settler variety would react with sustained violence.
I can't help but notice that you twice mention Abu khdeir but fail to note context. For example, the fact that he was killed after hamas kidnapped and murdered three Jewish kids. Nor do you bother to mention that virtually all of Israeli Jewish society considered his murder to be a heinous crime which we did not and do not condone. By comparison, Palestinian society has elevated the recent terrorists to the status of martyrs. Why didn't they set up checkpoints outside the neighborhood of the three Jews who killed the boy? Maybe because the checkpoints are NOT punishment. They are a way to try to deter future terrorism. The Times should be much more careful about accurate reporting if it wants to retain the title of newspaper of record.
40
Eric Hammer, Baruch Goldstein who machine gunned Palestinians as they prayed is revered as a hero in Israel. Israelis visit a shrine dedicated to him. One man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter.
2
@ Hammer
The IDF turn the houses of any suspected Palestinian terrorist into rubble. Were the Palestinians allowed to do that to the Jewish extremists that burnt the Palestinian teen alive?
The IDF turn the houses of any suspected Palestinian terrorist into rubble. Were the Palestinians allowed to do that to the Jewish extremists that burnt the Palestinian teen alive?
2
Mr. Hammer, you are living in a delusion if you don't accept the fact that Palestinians are living under occupation. And there is not greater punishment than being forced to live under occupation.
2
The recent Gilad Shalit prisoner exchange where murders were freed to murder again may be the reason for the street justice.
It settles a particular problem then and there with finality.
It settles a particular problem then and there with finality.
12
If comments about M. Hamed's life in this account are focused on, it tells an interesting story:
"Mr. Abu Hamed, 44, is a lecturer at Hebrew University who runs two clinics in Israel’s health system, and lives in a comfortable home" I gather from that he works predominantly for and with Isreali Jews. His position is such that "He petitioned the Israeli Supreme Court in 1999 to demand a girls’ school in Sur Baher, and won". No small achievement as anyone who has gone to court here knows. Later on in the story it relates how "he and his neighbors can fly from Israel’s airport, a privilege denied to those in the West Bank or Gaza". Yet Mr. Hamed feels,
“You have a lot of evidence that you are not a human being,”
If that is so then why these poll results?:
"A June poll by the Palestinian Center for Public Opinion found that 61 percent of Palestinians in Jerusalem support “armed struggle” against Israel. Yet 52 percent said they would prefer to be citizens of Israel with equal rights than citizens of a Palestinian state, up from a third in 2010."
Holding these contradictory and incompatible positions suggest a schizophrenic struggle which speaks as much to Mr. Hamed's views of himself in Palestinian society as in the Jewish world.
"Mr. Abu Hamed, 44, is a lecturer at Hebrew University who runs two clinics in Israel’s health system, and lives in a comfortable home" I gather from that he works predominantly for and with Isreali Jews. His position is such that "He petitioned the Israeli Supreme Court in 1999 to demand a girls’ school in Sur Baher, and won". No small achievement as anyone who has gone to court here knows. Later on in the story it relates how "he and his neighbors can fly from Israel’s airport, a privilege denied to those in the West Bank or Gaza". Yet Mr. Hamed feels,
“You have a lot of evidence that you are not a human being,”
If that is so then why these poll results?:
"A June poll by the Palestinian Center for Public Opinion found that 61 percent of Palestinians in Jerusalem support “armed struggle” against Israel. Yet 52 percent said they would prefer to be citizens of Israel with equal rights than citizens of a Palestinian state, up from a third in 2010."
Holding these contradictory and incompatible positions suggest a schizophrenic struggle which speaks as much to Mr. Hamed's views of himself in Palestinian society as in the Jewish world.
27
The basic Arab grievance, from which everything else flows, is their refusal to allow Jews to control their own destiny in their historical homeland. The very thought flies in the face of their theology, in which Jews are characterized as less than human and Islam"s most implacable enemy, and their history in which Jews were treated as a despised minority. With Israel, their world is truly turned upside down. No wonder they're seething with anger and humiliation. What is far less understandable is the World's unceasing attempts to justify such frankly infantile behavior.
30
Charlie in NY
Is it "infantile" to protect your land, your family, your business from Israeli devastation?
Is it "infantile" to protect your land, your family, your business from Israeli devastation?
1
They tried to give the Jewish people a homeland but after 65 years of fighting it is obvious this has been a failed experiment...
7
Reality check evil flourished when good people stand idle an allow evil people to prey on weak an sick . Knowing where these trouble makers are should be so hard now we have computors can track there cell phones
Despair? I suppose the Saudi hijackers on Sept 11 were also desperate. Clearly, they had no other choice than to lash out by killing Americans. After all, they were the victims of horrible injustices, by their reckoning, too.
Please. Stop this absurd apologist, pretzel logic. Palestinians are the victims of their own choices - their choice to destroy Israel instead of building their own society; their choice to educate their children about Jewish inferiority and evil; their choice to select leaders who are corrupt, who would be incapable of creating a strong socieyt and who stir up ignorant, populist passions to serve their own selfish ends.
This is probably one of the most biased articles I've seen yet here. The Times skews the facts so much, I honestly find this article to be downright sickening, frankly.
Please. Stop this absurd apologist, pretzel logic. Palestinians are the victims of their own choices - their choice to destroy Israel instead of building their own society; their choice to educate their children about Jewish inferiority and evil; their choice to select leaders who are corrupt, who would be incapable of creating a strong socieyt and who stir up ignorant, populist passions to serve their own selfish ends.
This is probably one of the most biased articles I've seen yet here. The Times skews the facts so much, I honestly find this article to be downright sickening, frankly.
44
Dan. You mock the suffering of a people living under a brutal occupation and say, "Despair? I suppose the Saudi hijackers on Sept 11 were also desperate. Clearly, they had no other choice than to lash out by killing Americans. After all, they were the victims of horrible injustices, by their reckoning, too." The masterminds behind the Saudi attack on 9/11 said they did it in retaliation for U.S. support of Israel. The same reason was given for the 1993 attack on the World Trade Center. Yet, the reasons claimed by the perpetrators of these atrocities as inspiring their attacks was hardly mentioned in the mainstream press, so that like you, most Americans are perplexed as to why we are hated, or buy into Bush's "They hate us because we are free."
1
Pre-1948, the Arabs rejected two partition proposals: the Peel commission (1937) and the UN Partition Plan (1947). Intead Arabs launched three wars against Israel: in '48, '67 and '73.
In 2000, President Clinton proposed for Palestine: 95% of the West Bank, Gaza, and the Arab neighborhoods in East Jerusalem. Clinton in his book "My Life" (p.944) stated "Arafat's rejection of my proposal after Barak (Israel's PM) accepted it was an error of historic proportions."
In 2008, Israeli PM Olmert offered 93.7% of the West Bank, 5.8% of Israeli territory, Gaza and joint control over religious sites in Jerusalem. Abbas rejected that offer.
Negotiation last year were a failure and as they were in secret we don't know why.
A permanent, peaceful resolution will happen only when there are courageous leaders on both sides who are willing to compromise.
In 2000, President Clinton proposed for Palestine: 95% of the West Bank, Gaza, and the Arab neighborhoods in East Jerusalem. Clinton in his book "My Life" (p.944) stated "Arafat's rejection of my proposal after Barak (Israel's PM) accepted it was an error of historic proportions."
In 2008, Israeli PM Olmert offered 93.7% of the West Bank, 5.8% of Israeli territory, Gaza and joint control over religious sites in Jerusalem. Abbas rejected that offer.
Negotiation last year were a failure and as they were in secret we don't know why.
A permanent, peaceful resolution will happen only when there are courageous leaders on both sides who are willing to compromise.
29
Somebody tell us what would have happened to Israel, a legitimate country, if they had lost the war in 1948. All of Europe and even America have had new boarders after WW1 and WWll and nobody complains about what happened to the American Indians or the lands of other indigenous people around the world. The real problem is a culture that refuses to come in to the 21st or the20th or the 19th century and as a result will be forever marginalized by society, which breeds what you read about today. There is an old quote "give me a child before he is six and I will show you the man". The madrassas are breeding the next generation of hate and this will never stop. Prime Minister Thatcher of England said the next big war will be with Islam and she was 100% on the mark. And it won't end until free education exists for all. There are four tenets to hatred - isolation, ignorance, fear and superstition. All of which are present in the world today. Keep your people within those four barriers and you have the caldron for fundamental Islam and any other faith that abides by exclusion.
23
I guess I'm still having a very hard time digesting why the New York Times, of all places, is having such difficulty dealing with a place that represents the only democratically elected government in the region?
Why is that, NYT? What is it about the state of Israel that has you so up in arms? A free society, sanctioned by the UN, allowed to exist because the rest of the so-called civilized world is bubbling with anti-Antisemitism and hatred of Jews? Please tell us.
Don't worry. Your entire article has been cut and pasted into my archives, along with contents of your "comments." History will judge you, in the end -- not your editors who seem keen to hit the "delete" key when it suits them.
Why is that, NYT? What is it about the state of Israel that has you so up in arms? A free society, sanctioned by the UN, allowed to exist because the rest of the so-called civilized world is bubbling with anti-Antisemitism and hatred of Jews? Please tell us.
Don't worry. Your entire article has been cut and pasted into my archives, along with contents of your "comments." History will judge you, in the end -- not your editors who seem keen to hit the "delete" key when it suits them.
34
So- the relentless, spiritually discriminatory, "democratic" disenfranchisement of millions of people is "anti-Semitic"? "Sanctioned by the UN"- or...Invented by? Perhaps bankrolled by the champions of WWII, looking for a foothold near the planet's oil reserves? Gavin, I'm curious if you can draw any parallels to the current Israeli suggestions to curfew the Palestinians, or what it must have felt like for the older surving Palenstinians to have traded their homes in 1947 for refugee camps?
2
Israel is a democratically elected terrorist organization as far as I am concerned. The people of Israel elected Netanyahu and his IDF bombers. Netanyahu's terror organization just uses larger weapons than other terrorists and he allows Settlement after Settlement with no punishment. It has nothing to do with the Jewish people. I would say the same thing if say, it was Ireland instead of Israel.
1
Everyone who would like to see Berlin separated again into East and West raise your hands. Jerusalem has always been a single city, and has always had a sizable Jewish population, even when the Crusaders arrived. When the UN partitioned Palestine into Jewish and Arab sections, Jerusalem, in its entirely, was assigned to Israel. Arab states attacked and the cease fire line divided one side from the other. Jews were forbidden access to their holy sites, Jewish cemeteries and synagogues were desecrated. When the city was reunited in the '67 war, those places were refurbished. Arabs continued to have access to their holy sites and were even given control. Jews reclaimed neighborhoods, like the historical Jewish Quarter in the old city, from which they had been ethnically cleansed in '47-'48.
Clearly there is a dispute. One significant difference. When arabs briefly had sovereignty between '47-'67, Jews were forbidden access and Jewish sites desecrated. Since Israel regained sovereignty, arabs not only have access and their sites are well maintained, they have control over their sites.
Clearly there is a dispute. One significant difference. When arabs briefly had sovereignty between '47-'67, Jews were forbidden access and Jewish sites desecrated. Since Israel regained sovereignty, arabs not only have access and their sites are well maintained, they have control over their sites.
31
@ Joe
You write incorrectly that when the UN partitioned Palestine into Jewish and Arab sections, Jerusalem, in its entirety, was assigned to Israel. That seems to be wishful thinking on your part and never happened.
Jerusalem was never 'assigned' to Israel under the UN resolution of the Partition of Palestine. It was located in the middle of what is now called the West Bank, and was to be administered by the international community, promising both Jews and Arabs free access to that city.
Only after the end of the the Arab Israeli war in 1948 and the resulting ceasefire between Israel and Jordan was Israel allowed control of West Jerusalem while all of East Jerusalem stayed Jordanian control.
You write incorrectly that when the UN partitioned Palestine into Jewish and Arab sections, Jerusalem, in its entirety, was assigned to Israel. That seems to be wishful thinking on your part and never happened.
Jerusalem was never 'assigned' to Israel under the UN resolution of the Partition of Palestine. It was located in the middle of what is now called the West Bank, and was to be administered by the international community, promising both Jews and Arabs free access to that city.
Only after the end of the the Arab Israeli war in 1948 and the resulting ceasefire between Israel and Jordan was Israel allowed control of West Jerusalem while all of East Jerusalem stayed Jordanian control.
3
If Palestinians pick up knives against the people of a country with a powerful military, then the Israelis must understand that the cycle of violence will never end. Stop looking for who is to blame and start working towards finding a solution for 2 countries. Stop electing as PMs former special forces guys that only know how to fight. Stop accepting that if you blow up your self and kill innocents you will go to heaven. Religious leaders on both sides stop making fanatics out of your people , and start teaching them that you are not the chosen people of a god, but rather that your god wants peace and only peace. Stop thinking of the land as holly, of the buildings as something to defend with your lives. The only thing to defend is human life, and since none of you can justify the killing of kids or people that are waiting for the bus, start realizing that you are doing something wrong, and that you must put your guns down and extend your hands to each other. War is easy, especially in your region, so stop being lazy and work for peace. And maybe the hatred that makes a man stab you with a knife or the one that makes a young man use his assault rifle to shoot another young man carrying a sling shot, just maybe that hatred might give way to a peace that will make that a promise land, and you the chosen people
8
If someone were coming at me with a knife or a meat-cleaver intent on killing me, I would shoot. I would not care whether my attacker was dead or alive, as long as he/she stopped attacking me. This action would not be an expression of hatred, but simply a desire to survive. End of story.
1
What isn't talked about much in the media--there was a NY Times article on this a year or so ago--but is common knowledge on the streets of Jerusalem, is the "population war" going on between Palestinians and conservative Jews. Without any regard to economic conditions, both sides strongly encourage large families through religious practices that prevent any sort of birth control. This has over the years created a deadly biological war that is creating unimaginable misery among those who are born into this dystopian social environment. In 1950 Jerusalem was a sleepy historical town of some 30,000 people, today it has grown cancerously to over 1 million. Do you expect social community to just hum along harmoniously under such circumstances?
It's scary, because it's really just a microcosm of what is going on globally, but there's nothing that can be done about. Those of us educated enough to be aware of the nature of this tragedy can only stay clear and watch it unfold.
It's scary, because it's really just a microcosm of what is going on globally, but there's nothing that can be done about. Those of us educated enough to be aware of the nature of this tragedy can only stay clear and watch it unfold.
48
When young people with knives are attacking well armed soldiers in the streets and being gunned down it isn't exactly a PR success for Israel. I expect that the second amendment people in the US take the point.
4
"When young people with knives are attacking well armed soldiers in the streets"
You aren't following the news. They're also stabbing teenagers on bicycles, women and others in the back.
You aren't following the news. They're also stabbing teenagers on bicycles, women and others in the back.
7
The article is correct in pointing out that the Jerusalem municipality needs to improve services to East Jerusalem.
The Palestininians in the article however, make some rather disingenous claims:
East Jerusalem residents can all ask for Israeli citizenship and have full rights, including voting in the Knesset. Few do. Barring asking for citizenship, they have "permanent residency" which gives them all the rights of a citizen, except for voting for the parliament. They can vote in municipal elections. Very few of them even exercise their right to vote, and thus they are under represented in the municipal government. So much of the blame for their situation belongs to them.
Complaining about the fire engine despatched from the Palestinian neighborhood is also a red herring: this is done because a "Jewish" fire engine will be attacked by the very residents it is trying to help. If the professor in question wants better city services, maybe he and his neighbors should start voting in municipal elections and stop attacking municipal employees who come to help them.
The Palestininians in the article however, make some rather disingenous claims:
East Jerusalem residents can all ask for Israeli citizenship and have full rights, including voting in the Knesset. Few do. Barring asking for citizenship, they have "permanent residency" which gives them all the rights of a citizen, except for voting for the parliament. They can vote in municipal elections. Very few of them even exercise their right to vote, and thus they are under represented in the municipal government. So much of the blame for their situation belongs to them.
Complaining about the fire engine despatched from the Palestinian neighborhood is also a red herring: this is done because a "Jewish" fire engine will be attacked by the very residents it is trying to help. If the professor in question wants better city services, maybe he and his neighbors should start voting in municipal elections and stop attacking municipal employees who come to help them.
20
In their zeal to prove that the Palestinians are a non-people, the pro-Likud posters must be having an off day. I've yet to see one post lauding the land theft-based settlements as the noblest enterprise ever undertaken by mankind, while noting that its what g-d commanded so how can anybody but radical leftist extremists like Obama object, and, besides, anybody like Obama who does object is the worst kind of anti-Semite imaginable.
Not that its such a boffo day for the pro-Hamas posters either. What happened to all those posts asserting that the Hamas rockets are really harmless and its just ill will on the part of the Israelis to give them a moment's notice, let alone complain about them? Still, at least a few posts defended random knife attacks as a form of just retribution and anyway no big deal, so I suppose the day wasn't a total waste for the Hamas partisans.
Not that its such a boffo day for the pro-Hamas posters either. What happened to all those posts asserting that the Hamas rockets are really harmless and its just ill will on the part of the Israelis to give them a moment's notice, let alone complain about them? Still, at least a few posts defended random knife attacks as a form of just retribution and anyway no big deal, so I suppose the day wasn't a total waste for the Hamas partisans.
2
As a European immigrant in the 'States I'm constantly being told to "check my privilege", perhaps some of those well-meaning social justice warriors who are so quick to demonize me and my ilk could spend a few minutes a week telling the Jews in Israel to "check their provlidge" too.
3
Yesterday , I walked around NYC {Midtown, Moma, and central park}
with my t-shirt stating Free Palestine Peace in the MIddle east.
I was cursed at, spit at, flipped off, etc. One bicyclist rode on the sidewalk to yell at me and then sped away.
I thought at one point I was going to be asked to leave Moma but I had
my membership card so the guard moved away.
I was stunned by the hatred.
with my t-shirt stating Free Palestine Peace in the MIddle east.
I was cursed at, spit at, flipped off, etc. One bicyclist rode on the sidewalk to yell at me and then sped away.
I thought at one point I was going to be asked to leave Moma but I had
my membership card so the guard moved away.
I was stunned by the hatred.
11
"Stunned"?
Not to defend the behavior of those who begaved so obnoxiously toward you, but you are very foolish indeed if you did not understand that your T-shirt broadcast a very controversial opinion on a matter people care deeply about, at both extremes. I don't buy that you were "stunned by the hatred." I think you went out yesterday knowing full well that your own communication, through your T-shirt slogan, would elicit responsive communications.
Not to defend the behavior of those who begaved so obnoxiously toward you, but you are very foolish indeed if you did not understand that your T-shirt broadcast a very controversial opinion on a matter people care deeply about, at both extremes. I don't buy that you were "stunned by the hatred." I think you went out yesterday knowing full well that your own communication, through your T-shirt slogan, would elicit responsive communications.
1
you are defending their behavior and that's the problem
Let's see, Netanyahu campaigns by telling people that they should rush out a vote for him lest the Arab citizens obtain any political influence. And it works, big time - he ends up with a huge majority. I wonder what could possibly make the people in East Jerusalem feel despair and alienation?
6
When you stab 80 year old women then try to get on the bus you lose any sympathy you might get from me.
I have no words for those that murder mothers and then try to murder their children.
Germans, Poles, Italians and French were expelled from lands long lived in in the aftermath of WW2. They were absorbed and rebuilt a vibrant Europe.
Its past time for the refugee camps to be absorbed by the Arab nations, because feeding this festering sore only makes it worse.
I have no words for those that murder mothers and then try to murder their children.
Germans, Poles, Italians and French were expelled from lands long lived in in the aftermath of WW2. They were absorbed and rebuilt a vibrant Europe.
Its past time for the refugee camps to be absorbed by the Arab nations, because feeding this festering sore only makes it worse.
22
As Jew, I am deeply ashamed of Israel and its treatment of the Palestinians. Israel is a horrible corruption of Judaism, a world religion identified before the 1960s with a deeply penetrating HUMANISM that was reflected in knowledge, observance, music, the arts in general, scientific learning and mathematics, and liberal politics. Now, so much of that rich heritage is gone, insulted by the actions, condescension, ethos of contemporary Israel, and infecting all of world Jewry.
Israelis have shown themselves beyond cruelty, an internalization of the very darkness that resulted in the Holocaust, only now it is the Palestinians of today who are the Jews of yesterday and the Israelis of today who show the arrogance of those who formerly persecuted the Jews. Israelis gleefully show their muscle at every turn, delighting in the humiliation of the Palestinians and not realizing how this not only violates the teachings of Torah but reveals the inner evil and psychological rot of those who dominate.
How sticks and stones, even knives, can be taken as other than marks of desperation, as meanwhile Israeli security forces have the latest, most lethal weapons, and are prepared to use them as a reflex action, shows the gross imbalance of force. How did it come to this? As a youth growing up in the 1940s-50s I saw Israel as the paragon of democratic socialism (even then I was unaware of the the start of ethnic cleansing and contempt for the Palestinians). Far worse today.
Israelis have shown themselves beyond cruelty, an internalization of the very darkness that resulted in the Holocaust, only now it is the Palestinians of today who are the Jews of yesterday and the Israelis of today who show the arrogance of those who formerly persecuted the Jews. Israelis gleefully show their muscle at every turn, delighting in the humiliation of the Palestinians and not realizing how this not only violates the teachings of Torah but reveals the inner evil and psychological rot of those who dominate.
How sticks and stones, even knives, can be taken as other than marks of desperation, as meanwhile Israeli security forces have the latest, most lethal weapons, and are prepared to use them as a reflex action, shows the gross imbalance of force. How did it come to this? As a youth growing up in the 1940s-50s I saw Israel as the paragon of democratic socialism (even then I was unaware of the the start of ethnic cleansing and contempt for the Palestinians). Far worse today.
144
What a deeply ill-informed comment. Let's just say if the Palestinian Arabs were the Jews of today, they would have already ceased to exist. They would certainly not still form some 20% of Israel's population with representation at every level of society from Israel's Supreme Court on down.
Pretending that an ugly reality, thehistorical murderous Arab rejectionism of the very idea of a free and sovereign Jew returned to his historical homeland, doesn't exist is moral blindness. Blaming the Jewish victim for the aggression of others is moral cowardice.
Pretending that an ugly reality, thehistorical murderous Arab rejectionism of the very idea of a free and sovereign Jew returned to his historical homeland, doesn't exist is moral blindness. Blaming the Jewish victim for the aggression of others is moral cowardice.
51
This is the most important and truthful comment on Judaism and Israel I've read in a long time. People tell me that Israel is a beacon of light, liberty, and learning; that it is the start-up nation; that its scientists might discover the cure for CANCER. Even if that were true, it means little if Israel has lost its soul.
33
I couldn't disagree with you more. Did you read the article? Even the Palestinians prefer Israeli citizenship. And the Arabs who keep killing/trying to kill the Jews? Treated at Israeli hospitals. The Palestinians are their own worst enemy. Why not vote? Why not stop the violence? There lives could be so much better. None of the other Arab states will accept them. It's remarkable to me as a Jew that you completely ignore all of the transgressions against innocent Israelis.
9
So the Palestinians had inciting school books. Interesting. But what do Israel's Jews learn in their schools?
6
Tolerance. You can buy their textbooks and see for yourself. What are they teaching in Netherlands textbooks these days? With your history of intolerance and antisemism I shudder to think about it.
9
Hmm.
A June poll by the Palestinian Center for Public Opinion found that 61 percent of Palestinians in Jerusalem support “armed struggle” against Israel. Yet 52 percent said they would prefer to be citizens of Israel with equal rights than citizens of a Palestinian state, up from a third in 2010.
A June poll by the Palestinian Center for Public Opinion found that 61 percent of Palestinians in Jerusalem support “armed struggle” against Israel. Yet 52 percent said they would prefer to be citizens of Israel with equal rights than citizens of a Palestinian state, up from a third in 2010.
13
I don’t understand Palestinians. Why can’t they accept the Israeli occupation of the land of Palestine which the Israeli (Jews) say was given to them by God? They should accept the reality and be law-abiding. One can’t imagine a Ted Cruz or Lindsay Graham or Ileana Lehtinen or Sarah Palin or Joe Scarborough committing illegal acts because they object to being second or third class citizens (citizens of what??). Ted or Lindsay would accept placidly the edicts emanating from Mr. Netanyahu knowing that those edicts are widely supported by the Israelis (Jews) and the United States Congress. Most of our representatives in Congress are convinced that Americans would accept the fate of Palestinians, restricted in their movements, in their economic development, in their civil rights and accept to be displaced to make room for immigrants coming from Miami or New York or Los Angeles to live comfortably in gated communities protected by their personal Uzis and IDF tanks. They would accept all this because they believe in law and order. Occupier’s laws. After all, the fate of the occupied is not worse than the fate of the Bantus in old South Africa, or our Blacks during Jim Crow. We, righteous Americans could live with that. They wouldn’t dream of throwing rocks or firing blunderbusses (unless their tea was taxed). Why can’t Palestinians be more like us?
7
It's terrible how so many people are biased in supporting either side rather than seeing that both sides are at fault.
With Israel, it's a land where both Jews and non-Jews have lived for thousands of years and it thus ought to be shared. Declaring it a "Jewish State" to be run by Jews with a right of return for Jews only is not right. Rather than trying to find meaningful solutions the Israeli government pursues settlements which obviously further upsets the Arabs.
With the Palestinians, violent resistance is not only morally wrong but completely counterproductive, giving the Israeli government justification and international support in continuing their current course.
With Israel, it's a land where both Jews and non-Jews have lived for thousands of years and it thus ought to be shared. Declaring it a "Jewish State" to be run by Jews with a right of return for Jews only is not right. Rather than trying to find meaningful solutions the Israeli government pursues settlements which obviously further upsets the Arabs.
With the Palestinians, violent resistance is not only morally wrong but completely counterproductive, giving the Israeli government justification and international support in continuing their current course.
3
So only the Jewish people have no right to self-determination in their historical homeland? Unfortunately for you, the international community took the contrary position in 1922 when the League of Nations Mandate for Palestine was established. That right is enshrined in international law. Given the long and continuing history of Jewish persecution in the world, why shouldn't the Jewish people have a refuge?
Besides, only is Israel - so obviously alone in the region - do Muslims, Christians and Jews enjoy the benefits of a modern, secular democracy. And don't think the Muslims don't appreciate it: when the suggestion was floated that, in setting a permanent border a triangle of land with an overwhelming Arab presence would be exchanged for land with Jewish inhabitants, the Arabs protested vehemently. So, quite evidently, they know something very important about Israeli society that most commentators refuse to acknowledge.
Besides, only is Israel - so obviously alone in the region - do Muslims, Christians and Jews enjoy the benefits of a modern, secular democracy. And don't think the Muslims don't appreciate it: when the suggestion was floated that, in setting a permanent border a triangle of land with an overwhelming Arab presence would be exchanged for land with Jewish inhabitants, the Arabs protested vehemently. So, quite evidently, they know something very important about Israeli society that most commentators refuse to acknowledge.
8
The Jews offered to share it in 1948 and that was rejected by the Arabs in favor of annihilation of the Jews. Nevertheless the Jews accept over 1 million Arab citizens in Israel today because they are more tolerant.
9
Palestine has already been shared: Judenrein Jordan for Arabs, Jewish Israel for Jews (with a healthy 20% non-Jewish population). Willful blindness to this fact signifies Eugene's desire for an ever-shrinking Jewish state
15
Enough already. The plan for two states has been negotiated and negotiated. Both sides know the eventual terms. At Camp David they were all but an Arafat signature away (even the Saudis called him a criminal for saying no). Abbas has since walked away two more times from negotiations, at Taba and again last year with Kerry's shuttle diplomacy.
Let's get int'l backing of an agreement that pressures both sides. Publicly air the terms. Let's see who balks at what issue.
Let's get int'l backing of an agreement that pressures both sides. Publicly air the terms. Let's see who balks at what issue.
10
Funny how the Zionists write here without showing where they come from.
The article whitewashes Israel's murder of tens of thousands of Palestinians. Israeli soldiers, the honest ones, have exposed how patrols beat up and even kill random Palestinians in the streets to provoke a response, which can then be shown in the media. Israel has systematically destroyed the Palestinian infrastructure, by e.g. digging up power lines and water pipes as a form of terrorism, and destroying the precious olive groves which take TWELVE YEARS to grow. They want to make Palestinians destitute to provoke them. How many Americans have heard of the helicopter - paid with your money - that killed a Palestinian family having a picknick by the beach? How many have heard of the Israeli soldier-terrorists firing at Palestinian children playing soccer at a school yard? You know nothing, Jon Snow. Only the sporadic Palestinian counter-attacks are shown in the media - over and over again. Not the tens of thousands of Palestinian victims. And meanwhile the Palestinians are losing more and more of their last 22 percent of land. It is down to 12 percent now, because of the fanatical "settlers" who increasingly control Israeli parties, the Security Service, police (the new police chief for example) and officer corps.
The article whitewashes Israel's murder of tens of thousands of Palestinians. Israeli soldiers, the honest ones, have exposed how patrols beat up and even kill random Palestinians in the streets to provoke a response, which can then be shown in the media. Israel has systematically destroyed the Palestinian infrastructure, by e.g. digging up power lines and water pipes as a form of terrorism, and destroying the precious olive groves which take TWELVE YEARS to grow. They want to make Palestinians destitute to provoke them. How many Americans have heard of the helicopter - paid with your money - that killed a Palestinian family having a picknick by the beach? How many have heard of the Israeli soldier-terrorists firing at Palestinian children playing soccer at a school yard? You know nothing, Jon Snow. Only the sporadic Palestinian counter-attacks are shown in the media - over and over again. Not the tens of thousands of Palestinian victims. And meanwhile the Palestinians are losing more and more of their last 22 percent of land. It is down to 12 percent now, because of the fanatical "settlers" who increasingly control Israeli parties, the Security Service, police (the new police chief for example) and officer corps.
11
Wow, I wish I could make up facts as easily as you do!
Do you know how difficult it is to dig up olive trees?
Do you have a count which comes close to 10's of thousands which is not based on imagination?
Where do you come up with counts of "Palestinian land"? Most of Palestine was "state-owned"; first the Turks, then the Brits, then whomsoever. Palestinians? Not really.
Try listening to something other than the lefty propagandists if you want to be taken seriously.
Do you know how difficult it is to dig up olive trees?
Do you have a count which comes close to 10's of thousands which is not based on imagination?
Where do you come up with counts of "Palestinian land"? Most of Palestine was "state-owned"; first the Turks, then the Brits, then whomsoever. Palestinians? Not really.
Try listening to something other than the lefty propagandists if you want to be taken seriously.
9
Despite all of the anti-Israel comments by Palestnians interviewed for this article, 52% of Palestinians polled still would prefer to be citizens of Israel rather than citizens of their own Palestinian state. That telling statistic clearly shows that the majority of Palestinians don't trust the corrupt leadership of Mahmoud Abbas who continues to incite his people with vitriolic hate speech which has been part of the core curriculum of Palestinian schools for years. Until Abbas agrees to sit down and negotiate a two-state solution with no pre-conditions, or a more moderate leader who has the courage of a Sadat replaces him, the quagmire will just continue to spiral out of control.
21
Typical, tiresome reporting. If the Palestinians had accepted the state in 1948 when Palestine was divided into a Jewish and Arab state, or later under the land for peace offered by Ehud Barak, none of this would be happening now. The Palestinians have never accepted the fact that they lost the war. They have never given up the claim to all of Palestine. This is the root of the issue, not Jewish discrimination against Palestinians. And I daresay if American suffered suicide bombings and stabbings from the people who previously lived on this land--the Native Americans--they would be just as security conscious as the Israelis. The wall went up because of Palestine suicide bombings which are the result of the generalized belief, at its most toxic with Hamas, that there should be NO Jewish state. Why is this ALWAYS overlooked by the liberal western media? If Palestinians publicly accepted the two state solution and Israel as a Jewish state, if Hamas disarmed and destroyed its toxic charter, the Palestinians would have their state. Beginning and end of story.
30
Allegra, How stupid of the Palestinian not to accept the need to evacuate the region they had lived in continuously for 1500 years without compensation so that immigrants from Europe could move in. You blithely say, "they lost the war." The Israelis had the backing and immediate rearmament provided by the U.S. After WWII new rules govern military victories and the conquerors don't get to keep the land they conquered without being considered an illegal occupier. What territory did the U.S. claim after WWII? Only Russia, China, and Israel adhere to the doctrine of we won you are now subject to our will.
1
An observer – –
What is your forward – looking solution?
What is your forward – looking solution?
1
After visiting Jerusalem in 1984 including a walking tour of the old city, the Western wall, and Masada, it occurred to me that there is an interesting parallel between America and Israel.
Both countries have racially and economically divided cultures with police forces that practice law enforcement according to how the officer feels at that particular moment in time at a particular individual.
Both cultures are suffering a cultural decline as a result of their inequities, and both are so driven by hate, paranoia, and revenge that the citizen's perceptions are totally distorted from reality.
Both countries were founded on one ethnic group dominating the other with the privileged group refusing to share wealth or power with the minority.
The prognoses for both cultures, one 67 years old and the other 239 years old are equally guarded....no improvement in sight!
Both countries have racially and economically divided cultures with police forces that practice law enforcement according to how the officer feels at that particular moment in time at a particular individual.
Both cultures are suffering a cultural decline as a result of their inequities, and both are so driven by hate, paranoia, and revenge that the citizen's perceptions are totally distorted from reality.
Both countries were founded on one ethnic group dominating the other with the privileged group refusing to share wealth or power with the minority.
The prognoses for both cultures, one 67 years old and the other 239 years old are equally guarded....no improvement in sight!
48
"Both countries were founded on one ethnic group dominating the other with the privileged group refusing to share wealth or power with the minority."
Look at every country in Africa, and you'll find the power concentrated in the hands of one tribe with other tribes getting leftovers. The only time this causes international outrage is when the ruling tribe is white.
Look at every country in Africa, and you'll find the power concentrated in the hands of one tribe with other tribes getting leftovers. The only time this causes international outrage is when the ruling tribe is white.
2
Remove the nihilistic right wing power structure from both countries and everybody would have a better life.
Keith – –
Your detailed proposal?
Your detailed proposal?
1
Ms. Rudoren cites a poll taken by a Palestinian firm that just over one-half of east Jerusalem Arabs polled would prefer living in Israel than in a Palestinian state. No one has caused Palestinians more despair than their own corrupt leadership ... both by rejecting peace offers by successive Israeli prime ministers and governments, and by massive corruption and theft of donated funds from western governments. Until the Palestinians choose a leadership that is committed to a negotiated settlement, and is clean of corruption, this tragic conflict will remain unresolved.
19
In Los Angeles, CA, there is a housing project called Imperial Courts. The residents of Imperial Courts are 88% Black. From the time of its completion in 1944 until 2011, there was an average of dozens of homicides committed on or near the grounds of this project every year. In 2011, the Los Angeles Police Department opened the Southeast Community Police Station very close to Imperial Courts. Between 2011 and June 2013, there was only one homicide committed. It seems that when a community with very high crime is patrolled constantly by a highly armed and trained gendarmerie, that community lives more at peace and enjoys more relative security. Of course, East Jerusalem is populated by a people who, unlike their "Palestinian" counterparts who chose to abandon their ancestral lands, stayed behind and built a life and community within the borders of the Israeli nation. Peace loving Arabs who live in East Jerusalem understand that increased patrols make them safer in their homes and businesses. However, as in Imperial Courts, there is an element of gangsters masquerading as an "oppressed minority" which rejects security and peace in favor of chaos and mob rule. Witness only the lives of people who live under Hamas rule in Gaza City, and the daily lives of the average Israeli Arab in East Jerusalem, and ask yourself who lives better? If you think Gazaians live better, ask yourself why do so many residents of Gaza and the West Bank ask for permission to work in Israel?
77
What? these people were in this region for over a thousand years. They are the original people. They didn't abandon their ancestral lands, this is their ancestral lands. They live in a giant open air prison. Perhaps that is why they want to travel to Israel for work.
The the Holy City of Jerusalem has now become a city of hate as a direct consequence of the funding and arming of a neo-colonial power by both the EU and the US congress in an attempt to sustain the unsustainable I.e. the ethnic cleansing of what should have been an international city with free access to all faiths, in perpetuity, in accordance with the will of the United Nations.
Instead, as a result of the illegal expropriation of land and the persecution of the indigenous resident population for now over fifty years, the world has turned a blind eye and the Holy City has become a cauldron of violence from where God, justice and morality have been denied and dismissed. Where there was once humanity and humility we now have the depravity of death.
Instead, as a result of the illegal expropriation of land and the persecution of the indigenous resident population for now over fifty years, the world has turned a blind eye and the Holy City has become a cauldron of violence from where God, justice and morality have been denied and dismissed. Where there was once humanity and humility we now have the depravity of death.
5
Really?
The only "expulsion" from Jerusalem was of the ancient Jewish population, in 1948. The Arab population of Jerusalem is many times its size of 50 years ago; that's a funny result of ethnic cleansing. The only population excluded from its holy sites? The Jews, from 1948-67.
The only "expulsion" from Jerusalem was of the ancient Jewish population, in 1948. The Arab population of Jerusalem is many times its size of 50 years ago; that's a funny result of ethnic cleansing. The only population excluded from its holy sites? The Jews, from 1948-67.
8
Despair doesn't validate Arab violence against Jews and it's far from clear that this despair is a result of Isreali culture, as this despair exists all over the Arab world for many young Arabs. This discrimination seems small in the context of Syria and Iraq and because Arab violence against Jews is the cause of it. Let's be clear, if Arabs did not murder their Jewish brothers over the past nine decades, there would be no violence. The source of this violence and alienation is racism against Jews, incitement to violence by clerics and regional leaders, and a failure to condemn the violence and even condone and encourage it. Instead of complaining, condemning violence against Jews would seem more heroic to me, and understanding the true source of it would be more honest. Jewish people respect the holy sites of Arabs, and when living in the Arab and Persian world, they respected the countries they were in and lived peacefully in the face of persecution and discrimination. If Arab and European leaders wanted peace, they could condemn violence, note that Muslims have their holiest site in Mecca and Jews have theirs in Jerusalem, and assist the Arab population in Israel financially, and offer to host them in Jordan, Saudi Arabia or Sweden if they feel that alienated. This article published at this time lacks historical context, logical and moral relevancy and encourages violence by excusing it.
24
Take a Valium everyone! John Kerry is on the case. Washington still treats Israel as if this is 1948 and the country has fewer than 1 million dirt poor people. Get this John: Israel is a market economy of 8.2 million people, world class universities, good highways, high-tech industries, a stunning literacy rate compared to the neighbors and a sophisticated security system. In 2015 it needs no outside help to resolve some random street stabbings by Palestinian hoodlums.
38
So, do the people of this brilliant economy keeping coming to US taxpayers with their hands outstretched?
2
Yes they do but not because of some random street violence
1
"East Jerusalem has been a hotbed since July 2014, when Jewish extremists kidnapped and murdered Muhammad Abu Khdeir, a 16-year-old..” twice the Times states this as reason for the Arab unrest. Of course they fail to mention that first the Arab terrorists kidnapped and murdered three innocent Israeli teenagers. Typical New York Times anti-Israel bias. The PA has time and again turned down offers of 97% of what they ask. Want improvements? Just stop terrorist violence and incitement. Guess what. Negotiation means just that. Negotiate.
42
While the murder of the Palestinian teen was unreservedly condemned by Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu and all leading Israeli politicians, the official Facebook page of the main Palestinian party Fatah celebrated the kidnappings of the Jewish teens with this despicable cartoon, showing them as captured mice (camera.org)
6
"when Jewish extremists kidnapped and murdered Muhammad Abu Khdeir, a 16-year-old."
So, let's get this straight....a singular event by Jewish extremists -- who Netanyahu and the Israeli criminal justice system correctly sees as an abhorrent act of violence against one of its citizens (regardless of ethic origin) and pledges to avenge the crime....
Compared to a systematic spate of violent acts driven by frustration by Arabs who could care less the consequences their actions have on law-abiding fellow Arabs.
Were the violence to stop, things would change.
That's the story throughout the history of Arab-Israeli violence.
If the Palestinians were to give up their weapons, there would be no more violence.
Were the Israeli's to give up their weapons, there would be no Israel
So, let's get this straight....a singular event by Jewish extremists -- who Netanyahu and the Israeli criminal justice system correctly sees as an abhorrent act of violence against one of its citizens (regardless of ethic origin) and pledges to avenge the crime....
Compared to a systematic spate of violent acts driven by frustration by Arabs who could care less the consequences their actions have on law-abiding fellow Arabs.
Were the violence to stop, things would change.
That's the story throughout the history of Arab-Israeli violence.
If the Palestinians were to give up their weapons, there would be no more violence.
Were the Israeli's to give up their weapons, there would be no Israel
8
when you deprive citizens of the basic necessities of life you may have some residual anger
22
Just to clarify. East Jerusalem's Arabs have been offered Israeli citizenship. The vast majority have rejected it.
7
when you deprive citizens of the basic necessities of life you may have some residual anger.
So according to your "liberal" perspective if I deny your admission to college or to a certain job you have the right to knife me. Oh no.... that is not a basic necessity. So what is it? are Palestinians in Jerusalem who carry an Israel ID card entitling them to social security benefits (many of them having large families), pay no a little tax, and are free to work anywhere in Israel are deprived?
So according to your "liberal" perspective if I deny your admission to college or to a certain job you have the right to knife me. Oh no.... that is not a basic necessity. So what is it? are Palestinians in Jerusalem who carry an Israel ID card entitling them to social security benefits (many of them having large families), pay no a little tax, and are free to work anywhere in Israel are deprived?
6
This fundamental fact remains: If you treat people like animals, they will behave like animals. Current events in Israel should come as a surprise to no one.
62
Which is all the more reasons why the international community and the Obama administration needs to stop treating Palestinians as animals, and start holding them responsible for their actions.
11
Exactly, as long as Palestinian "leaders" treat Israelis as animals, "their" people will get hit back.
9
so you agree that if a Jew walked into a Palestinian neighborhood he would be treated as an animal or even worse!? Palestinians living in Israel are treated like humans and if they want respect and even hope then they should act like humans also.
the barriers (physical and political) will come down when the Palestinians ask for unconditional peace!
the barriers (physical and political) will come down when the Palestinians ask for unconditional peace!
3
Now Palestinians have knife. But after few years they will have nukes. The City of Jerusalem is for all three religions. Israelis cannot deprive Palestinians their fair share.
6
Ridiculous. They don't even have an economy. The ones who even make a living do so by crossing the border to work in Israel. They have made a shambles of Gaza & the West Bank. Their only proven record of sustainability has been hatred.
7
"Israel captured it all from Jordan in the 1967 war, and expanded Jerusalem’s boundaries to 27 square miles from 2.3. Israel’s annexation was rejected by the United Nations, and most of the world considers the territory occupied."
They increased the boundaries by 10 fold to annex 10 times more Palestinian land by claiming it so-called 'eternal capital' as if they ever had a capital before 1949.
And of course the denial continues.
"WWASHINGTON — The current wave of violence rocking Israel has nothing to do with West Bank settlement building, Israel’s Ambassador to the US Ron Dermer said Saturday night, taking a veiled jab at US Secretary of State John Kerry, who recently linked the two"
They increased the boundaries by 10 fold to annex 10 times more Palestinian land by claiming it so-called 'eternal capital' as if they ever had a capital before 1949.
And of course the denial continues.
"WWASHINGTON — The current wave of violence rocking Israel has nothing to do with West Bank settlement building, Israel’s Ambassador to the US Ron Dermer said Saturday night, taking a veiled jab at US Secretary of State John Kerry, who recently linked the two"
8
After being attack d by Jordan, Israel captured East Jerusalem in 1967 is the correct ,factual statement. There's your problem.
5
Poland took over large areas of Germany. The US took over portions of California and New Mexico. China annexed Tibet. What is your point? That Jews are less then 1/2 % of the population and therefore should not have the same rights as other nations to annex areas they won in a war imposed on them?
1
How complicit are you when your little brother terrorizes his weaker friends... for 50 years?
11
Palestinians are no one's friends and it's their own fault following Islam for being weak. Reading non-religious books, abiding the law, and not stabbing people goes a long way towards not being treated equally.
The Palestinians try one tactic after another to destroy Israel. When one fails, they go on to the next. When the suicide bombers of the Second Intifada, which went on from approximately 2000-2004, failed after Israel built its border fence and wall, they started lobbing rockets in from Gaza. Three mini-wars started from Gaza took place from 2009-2014. Now that these mini-wars have failed--although there certainly could be another--the Palestinians have launched a round of random stabbings perpetrated mostly, it seems, East Jerusalem residents who have Israeli identity cards. After each of these rounds of attacks, it is Israel which is invariably blamed for excessive retaliation. The Palestinians want people to sympathize with them because they claim they are completely powerless and pitiful. This will never be a popular stance to take in America, where we believe in overcoming our obstacles--peacefully.
28
Try to imagine yourself as a Palestinian. Then think of what you would feel or do.
2
Caleb, are you kidding? This USA is a bastion of force, from personal firearm use to wars of dubious intent around the globe, not to mention the world's largest manufacturer of weapons.
I imagine I would take up the offer of citizenship and vote, hopeless as it seems.
Looking at that map that is shown about Jerusalem doesn't define the real boundaries between what is Israel and the Palestinian territories. Many need to understand that neither the Green Line, 1949 Armistice Line, or even the 1967 cease-fire line is an international boundary. What really annoys me more is that some are calling that area to the east of those lines East Jerusalem even though it's actually part of Jerusalem itself. Just because that area has a large Muslim population, doesn't mean that it should be part of Palestine. After that, there will probably be others who will say that Akko and Jaffa should also be part of them as well because they to have large Muslim populations. However, nobody seems to say that areas in the West Bank with large Jewish populations can be part of Israel. Part of the reason why Israel may not allow for that half of Jerusalem to go to the Palestinians is mainly because it includes the Old City that has the Jewish Quarter in it. When this was under Jordanian rule, they weren't even allowed to go to their own holy sites. Following the Six Day after reunifying Jerusalem, it was found that many Jewish sites were either desecrated or destroyed as if no respect was given to them. Historically, Jerusalem has been a predominately Jewish city for centuries no matter what empire ruled, and it wasn't even a provincial capitol for any of them either.
33
Let's suppose that the survivors of the original Native American occupants of what is now Pleasantville should come take "their Manitou-given holy land" back. What would you do? This whole tribal religion thing is a syphilis spirochete in our common genome; the first thing the adherents do is elevate themselves to "chosen" status. Religion was the apple in Eden.
Now the Arab states are asking UNESCO to include the Western Wall as part of Al Aksa in a bid to prevent Jewish prayer there.
The world believes in religious freedom for all but Jews. It has always been that way.
The world believes in religious freedom for all but Jews. It has always been that way.
4
In the United States, we placated the native population by giving them the exclusive right to operate casinos. The results seem to have been widely accepted by all parties.
Perhaps the problem in West Bank, is that Israeli right wing groups seem to be dedicated to giving the Palestinians nothing at all - except, perhaps, humiliation; and, now and then, a dose of lead.
What puzzles me, is why Israelis are offended when Palestinians occasionally stab them - what else did they expect would happen?
The solution to all these problems is obvious, people have to stop paying attention to the extremists on both sides, and start to treat each other with respect. It's not a big deal, you just have to do it.
To those who say that this is not realistic, I suggest that they visit the borough of Queens in NYC - a place where people of many different backgrounds, a very high percentage of which are immigrants, get along perfectly well.
Perhaps the problem in West Bank, is that Israeli right wing groups seem to be dedicated to giving the Palestinians nothing at all - except, perhaps, humiliation; and, now and then, a dose of lead.
What puzzles me, is why Israelis are offended when Palestinians occasionally stab them - what else did they expect would happen?
The solution to all these problems is obvious, people have to stop paying attention to the extremists on both sides, and start to treat each other with respect. It's not a big deal, you just have to do it.
To those who say that this is not realistic, I suggest that they visit the borough of Queens in NYC - a place where people of many different backgrounds, a very high percentage of which are immigrants, get along perfectly well.
14
You're "puzzled" that Israelis are offended when Palestinians "occasionally" stab them? You can't understand why random attacks against anyone who goes outside their house is bothersome? You're an idiot.
What puzzles me is how, in the face of the overwhelming evidence of their own history, Palestinians think terrorism is the answer to their problems. You know, because it's worked so well so far.
What puzzles me is how, in the face of the overwhelming evidence of their own history, Palestinians think terrorism is the answer to their problems. You know, because it's worked so well so far.
5
It's no big deal to stop paying attention to extremists? I'll let the American public know when Trump, Ted Cruz and Bernie Sanders have their next debate.
I absolutely agree with the sentiment and desire. But we were founded on the "nation of immigrants" thing, wherein we can all drop our baggaged.
Over there, it is a battle over land rights, and all kinds of other frought historical stuff. Its a constant source of upset.
I believe that given a different type of leader for Israel, the people would support a solution that was more generous to the Palestinian people. THere has to be a solution that will make both parties a little happy, a little unhappy.
Over there, it is a battle over land rights, and all kinds of other frought historical stuff. Its a constant source of upset.
I believe that given a different type of leader for Israel, the people would support a solution that was more generous to the Palestinian people. THere has to be a solution that will make both parties a little happy, a little unhappy.
1
I am astonished. This article does not include the most important fact: Palestinians are "marginalized" in Jerusalem by choice, not by design. They have been offered complete and full participation rights as citizens of Israel, but have chosen instead to remain non-citizens to avoid "legitimizing" Israel. This is not segregation; it is the equivalent of African-Americans choosing not to support the Voting Rights Act.
Furthermore, the claim continues to be made in the very comments section that Palestinians are upset with Israel because of "bulldozing homes" or "murder". This is grossly inaccurate, and a false picture of the situation. One need only ask why Palestinians were attacking Israel in 1965, while being occupied by Jordan and Egypt, to know the answer (Israel did not take control of the West Bank until 1967, in a defensive war). Should one argue that it's Israel which is the problem, one need only ask why Palestinians were attacking Jews in riots in 1920, 1921, 1929, and 1936-39, among other periods. Should one argue that it is Zionism, one need only ask why Palestinians attacked Jews in Jerusalem's anti-Semitic pogroms as early as 1834.
The problem is, and remains, incitement by Palestinian leaders. The Palestinian President claimed that Jews have "filthy feet" and are "desecrating" a site that is the third-holiest to Muslims and holiest to Jews by stepping on it. This leads to violence. We should be condemning Palestinian leaders' anti-Semitism, not justifying it.
Furthermore, the claim continues to be made in the very comments section that Palestinians are upset with Israel because of "bulldozing homes" or "murder". This is grossly inaccurate, and a false picture of the situation. One need only ask why Palestinians were attacking Israel in 1965, while being occupied by Jordan and Egypt, to know the answer (Israel did not take control of the West Bank until 1967, in a defensive war). Should one argue that it's Israel which is the problem, one need only ask why Palestinians were attacking Jews in riots in 1920, 1921, 1929, and 1936-39, among other periods. Should one argue that it is Zionism, one need only ask why Palestinians attacked Jews in Jerusalem's anti-Semitic pogroms as early as 1834.
The problem is, and remains, incitement by Palestinian leaders. The Palestinian President claimed that Jews have "filthy feet" and are "desecrating" a site that is the third-holiest to Muslims and holiest to Jews by stepping on it. This leads to violence. We should be condemning Palestinian leaders' anti-Semitism, not justifying it.
51
Judi Rudoren once again pounds the square peg of Arab incitement and terrorism into the round hole of the Palestinian Despair Narrative and you are surprised? Why? It's what she does. It's what the New York Times hires her to do.
6
But it does:
Israel officially offers citizenship to all Jerusalem Palestinians, but a tiny fraction apply.
Israel officially offers citizenship to all Jerusalem Palestinians, but a tiny fraction apply.
3
As far as I'm concerned, the world should methodically raze every religious site on earth and recognize religion for what it is: the apple in Eden.
In my opinion, there are too many religious, cultural, linguist and other differences between Arabs and Jews for the two groups of people to live peacefully in the same country. Whether or not the Arabs have equal rights, equal money, etc. they will not accept being dominated by Jews.
In the mid 20th century, the Arab nations expelled approximately 750,000 Jews from their lands, and the world barely yawned. If it was OK for the Arabs to do that to Jewish communities who had been living in their lands for centuries, Israel should return the favor. Very few Jews live in Arab lands.
Two states for two peoples. Not one state (i.e.. Israel) for two peoples.
In the mid 20th century, the Arab nations expelled approximately 750,000 Jews from their lands, and the world barely yawned. If it was OK for the Arabs to do that to Jewish communities who had been living in their lands for centuries, Israel should return the favor. Very few Jews live in Arab lands.
Two states for two peoples. Not one state (i.e.. Israel) for two peoples.
17
There ius a Palestinean State. It is Jordan.
7
Ethel, you are correct.
While I am not a person who believes that retribution is appropriate or an excuse for violence against others, I do find it ironic that Khdeir's killing is seen as the flash point from which the current violence flows. Khdeir's murder was not an event that occurred in isolation. It was a direct response to the murder, by Palestinians, of three young Israeli men -- Naftali Frenkel (16), Gilad Shaer (16), and Eyal Yifrah (19).
East Jerusalem was a "hotbed", as your writer describes it, long before July, 2014. It was a hotbed when I lived there, in the Old City between Jaffa Gate and New Gate, in 1983-84. Security checks, residency permits, etc. have changed little in 30 years. What has changed, though, is that there is now continual, overt, dehumanizing objectification of the Israelis in the irresponsible rhetoric from the Palestinian government, and a continual corresponding lack of respect and understanding for the Palestinian people from the current Israeli administration. The veneer of civil behavior is gone, and this is tragic.
When I lived in East Jerusalem, it was the one place that gave a reason for hope that there could be a real, lasting peace between the Israelis and Palestinians because there, the groups lived elbow to elbow, even as friends. Now, though, it seems East Jerusalem is not such an example anymore.
East Jerusalem was a "hotbed", as your writer describes it, long before July, 2014. It was a hotbed when I lived there, in the Old City between Jaffa Gate and New Gate, in 1983-84. Security checks, residency permits, etc. have changed little in 30 years. What has changed, though, is that there is now continual, overt, dehumanizing objectification of the Israelis in the irresponsible rhetoric from the Palestinian government, and a continual corresponding lack of respect and understanding for the Palestinian people from the current Israeli administration. The veneer of civil behavior is gone, and this is tragic.
When I lived in East Jerusalem, it was the one place that gave a reason for hope that there could be a real, lasting peace between the Israelis and Palestinians because there, the groups lived elbow to elbow, even as friends. Now, though, it seems East Jerusalem is not such an example anymore.
16
Those with opinions on either side need to live this problem before opining.
We have friends there. Arabs and Jews... good people.
The peace maker has not emerged that can talk to both sides and elevate the dialogue.
Stabbings will result in killings. This is justice. Threaten to kill, you will be killed.
The children could do better at peace making than the adults here, and all know this.
Time for the children to rise. Leadership from kids would end this mess quickly.
How about that?
We have friends there. Arabs and Jews... good people.
The peace maker has not emerged that can talk to both sides and elevate the dialogue.
Stabbings will result in killings. This is justice. Threaten to kill, you will be killed.
The children could do better at peace making than the adults here, and all know this.
Time for the children to rise. Leadership from kids would end this mess quickly.
How about that?
5
The two major Palestinian activities are terrorist attacks and complaints.
Rudoren reports that East Jerusalem Palestinians refuse Israeli citizenship en masse and refuse to vote in the municipal elections that would elect official who would bring them material benefits equal to Israel's Jewish citizens. She also reports them as victims, complaint after complaint - that they are not getting their fair share. Jodi, why don't you hold the Jerusalem Arabs responsible for their situation, by not voting, rather than as victims? And why do most Jerusalem Arabs want to live under the Israelis? We are not getting the full story. .
Rudoren reports the epidemic of Jerusalem Arab terror attacks and then the Palestinian complaints about Israeli restrictions. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure out that the restrictions are in the response to the Palestinian terror attacks. But Rudoren won't go there.
Rudoren reports that East Jerusalem Palestinians refuse Israeli citizenship en masse and refuse to vote in the municipal elections that would elect official who would bring them material benefits equal to Israel's Jewish citizens. She also reports them as victims, complaint after complaint - that they are not getting their fair share. Jodi, why don't you hold the Jerusalem Arabs responsible for their situation, by not voting, rather than as victims? And why do most Jerusalem Arabs want to live under the Israelis? We are not getting the full story. .
Rudoren reports the epidemic of Jerusalem Arab terror attacks and then the Palestinian complaints about Israeli restrictions. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure out that the restrictions are in the response to the Palestinian terror attacks. But Rudoren won't go there.
36
re: voting In 1988 the well-known Arab newspaper publisher Hanna Siniora decided to run as the head of a list of Arab candidates for the city council. His candidacy did not last long, however:
arsonists torched his two cars, and his home was daubed with graffiti, warning him to discontinue his "involvement with the [Z]ionist enemy plans." This intimidation, at the hands of the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, prompted Siniora to withdraw his candidacy (Justus Reid Weiner, Illegal Construction in Jerusalem : Impediments to Providing Quality Public Services in the Arab Neighborhoods of Jerusalem, p 4-5).
Similarly, the PLO has also intimidated Palestinians into not voting. For example, during the 1998 elections a poster distributed by Yasir Arafat's Fatah faction demanded that Palestinians not vote:
...not recognizing [the] legitimacy of the Israeli occupation is more important than our day-to-day services... We in the Fatah movement call our holy people to boycott the elections and to fight a war of existence and identity. (Illegal Construction, p 4.)
arsonists torched his two cars, and his home was daubed with graffiti, warning him to discontinue his "involvement with the [Z]ionist enemy plans." This intimidation, at the hands of the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, prompted Siniora to withdraw his candidacy (Justus Reid Weiner, Illegal Construction in Jerusalem : Impediments to Providing Quality Public Services in the Arab Neighborhoods of Jerusalem, p 4-5).
Similarly, the PLO has also intimidated Palestinians into not voting. For example, during the 1998 elections a poster distributed by Yasir Arafat's Fatah faction demanded that Palestinians not vote:
...not recognizing [the] legitimacy of the Israeli occupation is more important than our day-to-day services... We in the Fatah movement call our holy people to boycott the elections and to fight a war of existence and identity. (Illegal Construction, p 4.)
4
The outrageous graphic entitled, "Palestinians killed by Israelis," ignores context of attackers killed in self-defense, ignores the Israelis dead and injured. These attacks have nothing to do with settlements. If Israel remained within the pre-1967 borders, the attacks would continue, would be incited by Palestinian and other Arab leaders who use their children as fodder and call them martyrs. I am saddened by the despair that leads these children to choose death, but Israeli Jews choose life, even endangering themselves to provide medical care for their attackers. The sources cited below the graphic says it all.
25
"We will have peace when the Palestinians/Arabs love their children more than they hate ours (Israeli children)"--Golda Meir
This article is disingenuous. Jodi Rudoren and the NY Times have for 2 weeks either buried or muffled the reporting of stabbing of Jews by Arabs.
Rudoren, Isabel Kershner and other NY Times reporters give credence to statements by Arabs who say they are maltreated by Jews without corroborating those statements with evidence. However, when documentary evidence exist that Arabs are attempting to murder Jews, these reporters merely write "police said she stabbed a Jewish man in the back." As if the man laying on the ground, bleeding profusely with a knife sticking out of his back and witnesses testifying to the attack was not something they could simply report as fact.
So much for "All the news that's fit to print."
Rudoren, Isabel Kershner and other NY Times reporters give credence to statements by Arabs who say they are maltreated by Jews without corroborating those statements with evidence. However, when documentary evidence exist that Arabs are attempting to murder Jews, these reporters merely write "police said she stabbed a Jewish man in the back." As if the man laying on the ground, bleeding profusely with a knife sticking out of his back and witnesses testifying to the attack was not something they could simply report as fact.
So much for "All the news that's fit to print."
38
Boo hoo. Jerusalem has been occupied since the Romans, some 2000 years. It is been under the Ottomans, the British and Jordan and no bubbling with despair until the Jews got it back.
The Arabs living there are upset because their pipe dream of a Palestinian state with "East" Jerusalem as a capital has not yet come to fruition. Maybe they should have taken one of the many deals offered, all of which had parts of Jerusalem on the table. Maybe they should give up the goal of wiping Israel off the map and come to terms with reality. Instead, we get more violence and terror, which of course is Israel's fault. If rhings are so bad for the Arabs in Jerusalem, maybe they should drive visit Syria or Lebanon and see how nicely they are treated there.
The Arabs living there are upset because their pipe dream of a Palestinian state with "East" Jerusalem as a capital has not yet come to fruition. Maybe they should have taken one of the many deals offered, all of which had parts of Jerusalem on the table. Maybe they should give up the goal of wiping Israel off the map and come to terms with reality. Instead, we get more violence and terror, which of course is Israel's fault. If rhings are so bad for the Arabs in Jerusalem, maybe they should drive visit Syria or Lebanon and see how nicely they are treated there.
42
How about Egypt where they are not accepted either.
4
Israel is to blame mostly for the mess it created for itself. Palestinians just want their own homeland based on 1967 borders. Palestinians deserve their own state and many global actors are starting to feel their desire, the raising of the Palestinian flag at UN headquarters in NY being a harbinger of things to come. Obviously, this upsets hardcore Zionists that wish to see Palestinians deported to Jordan or anywhere but the Jewish State.
But the civilized world is growing impatient. There's only so much Arab bloodshed the world will tolerate before Israel is severely reprimanded for UN human rights violations, and possibly sanctioned. If Israel is not interested in peace then the US should take the lead by cutting off all aid to Israel and possibly cutting off diplomatic relations temporarily. That might sound extreme, but this Arab-Israeli conflict is beginning to spiral out of control, and in way that might favor and fuel Islamic extremism--something the US is desperately trying to contain.
But the civilized world is growing impatient. There's only so much Arab bloodshed the world will tolerate before Israel is severely reprimanded for UN human rights violations, and possibly sanctioned. If Israel is not interested in peace then the US should take the lead by cutting off all aid to Israel and possibly cutting off diplomatic relations temporarily. That might sound extreme, but this Arab-Israeli conflict is beginning to spiral out of control, and in way that might favor and fuel Islamic extremism--something the US is desperately trying to contain.
15
Mario of Tehran ,
I am glad that you are so concerned about Israel.... while your government kills Arabs in Syrian civilians everyday . "There's only so much Arab bloodshed the world will tolerate .." Now, how much Arab blood is shed by Iranians in Syria
I am glad that you are so concerned about Israel.... while your government kills Arabs in Syrian civilians everyday . "There's only so much Arab bloodshed the world will tolerate .." Now, how much Arab blood is shed by Iranians in Syria
6
Ms Rudoren never gives the true story. She twists the facts into a nest where the truth cannot be found. Many of the Arab resident of Jerusalem do not pay the local taxes so there is less funds for the infrastructure. Their young a poised by hate. They teach the young that the Jews are evil and need to be chased out of Jerusalem and Israel. They tell them that the day is coming very soon. This especially happened after the Oslo peace agreement. Araft was preaching one story to his people and an opposite story to the West. East Jerusalem Muslims chase all other sects out of Jerusalem such as Christians and Armenians and they are trying to do the like to the Jews . The Muslims want total control. With all that the Muslims have a much better life in Jerusalem than anywhere in the middle east. If they would stop teaching their children to hate, kill and that the Muslims will be in control of all of Jerusalem and Israel than their lives would improve much more.
23
Hmmm... Do I dare point out the elephant in the room? The very existence of the "State of Israel" is a construct decided upon by the U.S. and England, and was created by essentially "dropping" a "State" in the middle of already occupied land. Whether they were Jordanians, Palestinians, or anything else, they were ALREADY THERE when the "State of Israel" was basically rammed down their throats. I wonder how non-native Americans would feel if the Native Americans had the ability (wherewithal and force) to simply "take" a few States and "declare" them the "Native American State," and then treated those within "their" borders like second-class citizens.
I am not suggesting that the Jewish people do not deserve their own State, or even that the State of Israel should not exist. I am merely pointing out that the WAY in which it was created was prima facie going to have the results we see today.
I am not suggesting that the Jewish people do not deserve their own State, or even that the State of Israel should not exist. I am merely pointing out that the WAY in which it was created was prima facie going to have the results we see today.
18
Your analogy needs factorial correction . The Jews are the indigenous people of Israel. Like the Native Americans. The Balfour declaration gives a state to both Israel and Palestine, even though no such entity as a Palestinian government existed prior.How was that received .? With attacks by every Arab nation on IsrAel... The land was bought from absentee land owners.Jordan is the home of the Palestinian people.
6
Jews began leaving Judea about 300BC and established successful colonies throughout the Eastern Mediterranean including Egypt. By 30 BC huge numbers of Jews lived in Rome. In 70 AD Titus sacked Jerusalem and more Jews left. Even before this the Romans called the region Palestine. In 635 AD Arabs kicked the Romans out of Palestine. Christian tried to get it back. An Arab majority lived there continuously since the Early Middle Ages, often under occupation. The worst unimaginable atrocities ever perpetrated against a people were suffered by the Jews done by the Nazis. Europe's recompense was to give this people a slice of Palestine. Politics factored into the decision, and the Palestinians paid the price. The terrorized Jews of Europe founded their state on acts of terrorism against the British and Palestinians. For 60 years since then the U.S. picked up the tab. The price is more than financial. Now how did it come about that the Israelis have the right to determine the dimensions of a Palestinian state, or to deny the Palestinian people a state. Peace can't thrive under occupation. Yet, there is not room for 2 states. Can the West absorb all the Israelis and Palestinians who might want to emigrate? Can peace be imposed by the UN?
8
Jordan was created as a Palestinean State.
4
You fail to mention that expelled Jews from the arab states often ended up in Palestine. The arabs created a large part of their own problem.
5
The author of this article mentions that Palestinian residents of east Jerusalem are entitled to Israeli citizenship, but almost none have accepted it. The article fails to mention that even Palestinians in Jerusalem who hold permanent residence status are entitled to vote in Jerusalem municipal elections, but again, most of them routinely boycott those elections.
In other words, for political reasons, most Palestinian Jerusalemites refuse to take advantage of the political rights that could give them more influence over municipal government and thus over municipal services. This being the case, it is not really very reasonable for them to complain of their political marginalization.
In other words, for political reasons, most Palestinian Jerusalemites refuse to take advantage of the political rights that could give them more influence over municipal government and thus over municipal services. This being the case, it is not really very reasonable for them to complain of their political marginalization.
54
Yeah, why don't they legitimize Israel's claim over Jerusalem by accepting citizenship despite the fact that no country in the word does.
Always push your interests at home and abroad through fake narratives.
Always push your interests at home and abroad through fake narratives.
5
they receive Israeli citizenship provided they renounce Palestinian citizenship. Do American Jews have to renounce Israeli citizenship if they wish to keep their American one?
1
In the end, the lecturer is a Palestinian, and sadly, there have been some seemingly solid Palestinians, working in Jewish establishments for years, who turned terrorist. So, in the airport, they all get questioned and searched. Neither the searched, or the security checkers, enjoy this necessary procedure. And Mr. Abu Hamed knows only too well that if the tables were turned, no Jews other than turncoats could live in any security among the Palestinians, as things stand now. This is a vital fact to keep in mind.
The solution is for tolerant Palestinians to have the discussion with others as to what they want. Those who truly wish to remain in PA controlled areas should move, just as those who want to live under permanent Israeli rule have done. French Hill, Ms. Rudoren, is a case in point. Many more Arabs living there, sometimes outbidding Jews for a condo. How do I know? One of my daughter's friends sold an apartment there to a Palestinian, who came in with a better offer. These people aren't likely to encourage their children to become violent. Palestinians are intelligent, well informed people. They need to make some tough decisions. Can't have it both ways.
The solution is for tolerant Palestinians to have the discussion with others as to what they want. Those who truly wish to remain in PA controlled areas should move, just as those who want to live under permanent Israeli rule have done. French Hill, Ms. Rudoren, is a case in point. Many more Arabs living there, sometimes outbidding Jews for a condo. How do I know? One of my daughter's friends sold an apartment there to a Palestinian, who came in with a better offer. These people aren't likely to encourage their children to become violent. Palestinians are intelligent, well informed people. They need to make some tough decisions. Can't have it both ways.
38
Rosalie
You seem to forget that East Jerusalem is NOT a part of the State of Israel. When it becomes officially part of the State of Palestine, then the Jews living there can have a discussion with others as to what they want. Those who truly wish to remain in Israeli controlled areas should move.
You seem to forget that East Jerusalem is NOT a part of the State of Israel. When it becomes officially part of the State of Palestine, then the Jews living there can have a discussion with others as to what they want. Those who truly wish to remain in Israeli controlled areas should move.
5
Yes it is part of Israel.
1
Strictly speaking, East Jerusalem was annexed in 1981, so it is part of the State of Israel. This is disputed by the Palestinians, just as the very existence of Israel is disputed.
4
The American social Darwin adherents realized one thing that was necessary for them to sell their propaganda: you could not deny hope to a populace and have security; the Israelis do not recognize this fundamental fact, and that is the reason they will eventually lose their empire. ISis is a movement that is built on oa populace that has given up hope and has created a potent fighting force; the same is going to happen to Israel in the future; every day, Israelis deny any hope for the present or future generations, and they will eventually pay the price of the barbaric treatment they dish out everywhere. They have doomed themselves as all tyrants do.
13
Hope? Perhaps you did not read the article, which states that a majority of so called East Palestinians prefer to be citizens of Israel rather than your preferred solution (governance by PLO or ISIS).
1
Empire??? You mean the one the size of New Jersey???
4
All day today NY1 was bragging about how de Blasio, our progressive a la Hillary mayor, was visiting with Palestinians by going to a joint Arab-Israeli school. Why visit the school, you may ask? Because progressive Israel wants to brag about how well integrated they are. Yes, the so democratic Israel doesn't allow non-Jewish kids to attend its schools.
" Terra incognita: Is separate education working in Israel?
The Hand in Hand Center for Jewish-Arab Education in Israel has been operating schools since 1998 and currently has five campuses in the country, one each at Jerusalem (624 students), Sakhnin (130 students), Wadi Ara (240 students), Jaffa (30 students) and Haifa (70 students). The last two are preschools.
In 2013 there were 2,008,100 students in Israel. Thus, the percent of students studying in mixed Arab-Jewish schools is effectively 0. "
http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Terra-incognita-Is-separate-education-worki...
" Terra incognita: Is separate education working in Israel?
The Hand in Hand Center for Jewish-Arab Education in Israel has been operating schools since 1998 and currently has five campuses in the country, one each at Jerusalem (624 students), Sakhnin (130 students), Wadi Ara (240 students), Jaffa (30 students) and Haifa (70 students). The last two are preschools.
In 2013 there were 2,008,100 students in Israel. Thus, the percent of students studying in mixed Arab-Jewish schools is effectively 0. "
http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Terra-incognita-Is-separate-education-worki...
1
Really? As for you progressive WestSider, how many Palestinians would invite Jews to attend their schools? In fact last year a Palestinian professor Mohammed Dajani from al Quds University was fired from the university and received numerous death threats from the Arab population. Why was that? Did he embezzle funds from the university? No? Did he molest or exploit students? No, again. What was his terrible inexcusable "crime"? He took a group of Palestinians to Auschwitz so that they could learn something real about Jewish history -- not the hate-filled history-denying garbage they normally learn in their schools promoted by Abbas' PA and Hamas -- and make an attempt to actually understand their Jewish neighbors. Please check your Israel-hysteria at the door. You risk making a fool of yourself.
12
Education is determined by the language of instruction-- Hebrew or Arabic. There is nothing stopping Arab children from attending Hebrew language school and vice versa. But most parents want their children to learn in the language of their culture. Perhaps when peace is established there will be more bilingual schools.
1
Poppycock. The Israeli school system is basically organized around residence. Jews mostly study in either state, state religious, or "independent" (read: Orthodox) schools. Towns and cities with a majority Arab population also have schools where the primary language is Arabic.
However, in "mixed" cities (such as Haifa), kids are enrolled basically by where they live, and Jews and Arabs can and do go to school together. And in my own town, which is overwhelmingly Jewish, I know of at least one Arab kid who is enrolled at our most elite K-12 school.
And all this does not take into account the quite a few purposefully "mixed" schools. The one in Jerusalem is not the only one. So:
1) Put your hand on your heart and tell me that, were Israel to abolish Arab-language schools, you wouldn't cry out against Israel for "supressing Arab identity".
2) You can't sit in NY and try to guess what's really going on here. Come over, tour shopping malls, hospitals - or even the IDF - and you'll see that "Israeli Apartheid" is an evil myth.
However, in "mixed" cities (such as Haifa), kids are enrolled basically by where they live, and Jews and Arabs can and do go to school together. And in my own town, which is overwhelmingly Jewish, I know of at least one Arab kid who is enrolled at our most elite K-12 school.
And all this does not take into account the quite a few purposefully "mixed" schools. The one in Jerusalem is not the only one. So:
1) Put your hand on your heart and tell me that, were Israel to abolish Arab-language schools, you wouldn't cry out against Israel for "supressing Arab identity".
2) You can't sit in NY and try to guess what's really going on here. Come over, tour shopping malls, hospitals - or even the IDF - and you'll see that "Israeli Apartheid" is an evil myth.
9
“...all the time as a Palestinian here you feel that they want to take you out of the city..”
Because everything, I mean everything they do, is precisely geared to make that happen. Only the willfully ignorant, like our media and politicians, would not state that fact. A simple daily perusal of English language Israeli papers makes that crystal clear.
"East Jerusalem has been a hotbed since July 2014, when Jewish extremists kidnapped and murdered Muhammad Abu Khdeir, a 16-year-old..”
We influence public opinion with words that matter. Words missing from the above are: burning alive and innocent. Also missing is the fact that no one has been caught and prosecuted after a year, which is highly unusual since Israel finds Palestinian suspects within hours or days.
Because everything, I mean everything they do, is precisely geared to make that happen. Only the willfully ignorant, like our media and politicians, would not state that fact. A simple daily perusal of English language Israeli papers makes that crystal clear.
"East Jerusalem has been a hotbed since July 2014, when Jewish extremists kidnapped and murdered Muhammad Abu Khdeir, a 16-year-old..”
We influence public opinion with words that matter. Words missing from the above are: burning alive and innocent. Also missing is the fact that no one has been caught and prosecuted after a year, which is highly unusual since Israel finds Palestinian suspects within hours or days.
17
The suspect murderers were arrested and stand for trial, but do not let facts stand in your self righteous way.
8
Did the unrest not start with the kidnapping and murder of three Israeli teenagers hitching a ride near Hebron? Those murders provoked not only the repulsive vengeance murder of Muhammad Abu Khdeir but, indirectly, the Gaza war that soon erupted. Why did the writer pinpoint the Khdeir murder as a starting point without mentioning the murders that triggered it? Also, I have seen accounts of the arrest of those who perpetrated the Khdeir murder. Why, then, does the writer claim they have not been arrested?
6
"Also missing is the fact that no one has been caught and prosecuted after a year, which is highly unusual since Israel finds Palestinian suspects within hours or days."
The fact is the perpetrators had been caught and brought to justice in no more than the couple of weeks. Overlooking or ignoring well known facts makes your lies less effective.
The fact is the perpetrators had been caught and brought to justice in no more than the couple of weeks. Overlooking or ignoring well known facts makes your lies less effective.
6
Abbas has followed in the failed footsteps of Arafat, by focusing more on winning PR points than attaining Palestinian statehood. He has done nothing to stop the violent reactions to a rumor about Israel changing rules involving prayer around the Al Aqsa Mosque, and at a minimum has tacitly approved the ensuing violence.
This follows similar failures by Arafat, who encouraged the Intifadas, which ended up depriving Palestinians of access to Israel for jobs, making their economic situation more dire, as well as increasing hostility and insecurity, thus making statehood less likely.
Abbas had the audacity to agitate further by lying about the execution of a young Palestinian who stabbed a 13 year old Israeli on a bike multiple times. His claim that this Palestinian boy was executed by Israelis, when in reality the boy was recovering in Hadassah Hospital, again demonstrated his misguided desire to win the PR battle, while losing the statehood war. Of course, haters of Israel prefer to ignore the facts and immediately condemn Israel regardless of evidence.
Take a good look at the poor strategies of the Palestinian leadership before reflexively blaming Israel for the Palestinians' present situation.
This follows similar failures by Arafat, who encouraged the Intifadas, which ended up depriving Palestinians of access to Israel for jobs, making their economic situation more dire, as well as increasing hostility and insecurity, thus making statehood less likely.
Abbas had the audacity to agitate further by lying about the execution of a young Palestinian who stabbed a 13 year old Israeli on a bike multiple times. His claim that this Palestinian boy was executed by Israelis, when in reality the boy was recovering in Hadassah Hospital, again demonstrated his misguided desire to win the PR battle, while losing the statehood war. Of course, haters of Israel prefer to ignore the facts and immediately condemn Israel regardless of evidence.
Take a good look at the poor strategies of the Palestinian leadership before reflexively blaming Israel for the Palestinians' present situation.
45
SS: no strategy devised by Abbas can work; it takes two to tango and Israel won't tango.
If this isn't known by now--with Netanyahoo declaring he won't abide a two-state solution--then it is deliberately not know by those who prefer to blame Palestianians for Israeli recalcitrance.
If this isn't known by now--with Netanyahoo declaring he won't abide a two-state solution--then it is deliberately not know by those who prefer to blame Palestianians for Israeli recalcitrance.
3
Netanyahu did not state that he would not allow a two state solution, though he probably should kill the idea. He stated he prefers a demilitarized Palestinian state alongside a Jewish state. The Palestinian position is that they will never recognize a Jewish state.
But why let facts get in the way.
But why let facts get in the way.
5
To USA JUDGE: Here's what Netanyahu said in 2015: “I think that anyone who is going to establish a Palestinian state today and evacuate lands, is giving attack grounds to the radical Islam against the state of Israel,” Netanyahu said in a radio interview.
USA JUDGE can get a two state solution out of this, but most people can't. You know who can pull a rabbit out of USA JUDGE's hat? A propagandist, not an honest person.
"Let's get the facts out of the way" is what you want judge. Hope you don't put people away on such a misconstrual of the facts as you've done in your comment.
USA JUDGE can get a two state solution out of this, but most people can't. You know who can pull a rabbit out of USA JUDGE's hat? A propagandist, not an honest person.
"Let's get the facts out of the way" is what you want judge. Hope you don't put people away on such a misconstrual of the facts as you've done in your comment.
1
I sense that this latest round of violence is a turning point for some outside observers. I don't care much for Benjamin Netanyahu and thought it was ridiculous for him to address Congress earlier this year at the request of House "Speaker" John "Let's Vote to Repeal the ACA Everyday" Boehner. Nearly 20 years to the day after Yitzhak Rabin's assassination in November 1995, I still remember how acutely his loss was felt by everybody. Israeli political leadership has been decidedly inferior since. Netanyahu himself is a neoconservative who belongs in the same deplorable group as Dick Cheney, Douglas Feith, Richard Perle, and Paul Wolfowitz. I don't blame Barack Obama for keeping his distance from such a person.
But Palestinian teenagers randomly stabbing Jewish civilians is something I'll never be able to rationalize or support. Levantine Arabs (that includes the Palestinians) already constitute an overwhelming majority in 3 sovereign states--Syria, Jordan, and Lebanon. At this point, I'm finding it increasingly hard to understand or accept any argument in favor of creating a 4th state to join that group.
But Palestinian teenagers randomly stabbing Jewish civilians is something I'll never be able to rationalize or support. Levantine Arabs (that includes the Palestinians) already constitute an overwhelming majority in 3 sovereign states--Syria, Jordan, and Lebanon. At this point, I'm finding it increasingly hard to understand or accept any argument in favor of creating a 4th state to join that group.
45
AR
I appreciate your condemnation of Netanyahu & Co., but I am puzzled by the fact that you fail to see the connection between the policies and activities of Netanyahu & Co. and the current Palestinian rebellion.
I appreciate your condemnation of Netanyahu & Co., but I am puzzled by the fact that you fail to see the connection between the policies and activities of Netanyahu & Co. and the current Palestinian rebellion.
13
Form a fourth state and the other three will improve.
1
with so many Syrians now Germans , let the Palestinians resettle in Syria
6
"East Jerusalem has been a hotbed since July 2014, when Jewish extremists kidnapped and murdered Muhammad Abu Khdeir, a 16-year-old from the Shuafat neighborhood. "
This conveniently forgets the fates of Naftali Frenkel (16), Gilad Shaer (16), and Eyal Yifrah (19), Israelis who were kidnapped and murdered by Palestinians one month earlier.
The Palestinians and their apologists can always find a latest outrage committed by Israelis, while ignoring the outrages they commit. All they are looking for is an excuse to kill Jews, which they have been doing in modern times since 1930. Continued violence is not getting the Palestinians what they say they want, only driving the Israeli government further to the right and making the Palestinians' lot worse and worse.
The Palestinians should try something new; stopping acts of violence against the Israelis, embracing the concept of peaceful compromise, and negotiating in good faith with Israel.
This conveniently forgets the fates of Naftali Frenkel (16), Gilad Shaer (16), and Eyal Yifrah (19), Israelis who were kidnapped and murdered by Palestinians one month earlier.
The Palestinians and their apologists can always find a latest outrage committed by Israelis, while ignoring the outrages they commit. All they are looking for is an excuse to kill Jews, which they have been doing in modern times since 1930. Continued violence is not getting the Palestinians what they say they want, only driving the Israeli government further to the right and making the Palestinians' lot worse and worse.
The Palestinians should try something new; stopping acts of violence against the Israelis, embracing the concept of peaceful compromise, and negotiating in good faith with Israel.
145
If you expect Palestinian capitulation, you are dreaming.
2
Compromise is not capitulation.
1
Charles
Should the victim of theft "compromise" with the thief?
Should the victim of theft "compromise" with the thief?
Throughout this story it portrayed the "discrimination" of the muslims in Israel and the Jews are treated better. Well tables are turned. Throughout the Middle East, non-muslims (i.e. Jews and Christians) are treated MUCH worse. In some of these countries Jews and Christians have to pay a jizya tax. Jewish and Christian families are always frightful that their daughters will be rape. They often have severe restrictions on public worship. Let me correct myself. Tables are not turned. The muslims in Israel have it much better than Jews and Christians in other parts of the middle east.
I also want to say than in no way am I condoning discrimination. However, we need to look at the reality of the situation and see that this is a far-reaching problem and is much worse in countries of Iran, Pakistan, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, etc. A non-muslim (i.e. Jew and Christian) often fear for their lives. Read about Christian woman sentenced to death for 'drinking from Muslim water cup' in Pakistan just a few months ago.
In the end, I can only pray for peace in Israel and in all the Middle East. While are no easy solutions in all this, we do need to start looking in the right places for solutions, not just the quick, mass-media approved ones.
I also want to say than in no way am I condoning discrimination. However, we need to look at the reality of the situation and see that this is a far-reaching problem and is much worse in countries of Iran, Pakistan, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, etc. A non-muslim (i.e. Jew and Christian) often fear for their lives. Read about Christian woman sentenced to death for 'drinking from Muslim water cup' in Pakistan just a few months ago.
In the end, I can only pray for peace in Israel and in all the Middle East. While are no easy solutions in all this, we do need to start looking in the right places for solutions, not just the quick, mass-media approved ones.
54
In most of those countries, Jews are not allowed to be citizens. In some of them, Jews are not allowed to live.
26
The resolution to this conflict will only come when one side has so completely vanquished the other side that they have neither the numbers nor resources to continue to resist.
6
unfortunately, since Palestinian religion, media andeducational system continue to encourage martyrs, and the world is silent, one can expect such martyrs to continue to attack Jews.
17
For 67 years the palestinians have failed to give their people a chance at any kind of decent life.
Don't blame the Israelis for their corrupt and defective leaders.
The entire arab world has done nothing but incite them! AND none of them want to help them emerge from their pitifulexistence. AND none of them want them!
Don't blame the Israelis for their corrupt and defective leaders.
The entire arab world has done nothing but incite them! AND none of them want to help them emerge from their pitifulexistence. AND none of them want them!
128
Simplistic assessment of Palestinian leadership, whose total contribution cannot be summarized as corrupt and defective. Arafat and Abbas sought peace. But ultimately Israel decided it did not need peace because it felt itself to be dominant. Everybody knows that, so stop trying to put on the fig leaf.
1
"AND none of them want them!"
Wrong! There are many Palestinians working in Saudi Arabia.
Wrong! There are many Palestinians working in Saudi Arabia.
Talk about refusing to take responsibility. The Palestinians of East Jerusalem have been living under Israeli sovereignty for the past half century. The responsibility for their conditions lays squarely with the Israeli government which has treated them like dogs to be cleared out of the way for ethnically-exclusive housing for Jews. The whole world can see the naked racism of this arrangement. The efforts of Israel's apologists to shift the blame to the dispossessed for fighting back with whatever feeble means remain at their disposal convince nobody but themselves.
All this is a fig leaf for continuing Arab internecine violence, which is not limited to Israel.
Muslims can't even tolerate other interpretations of their own religion.
So even those who pray to the same Allah, followed by Akhbar, are killing each other big time.
Why? because one of their "rabbis" has a slightly different interpretation of who inherited the mantle of the Big Kahuna. The sun does not shine on the Shiite if he is in the Sunni part of the world and vice versa.
So the problem has nothing to do with the Jews. It has to do with a religion that has not yet evolved with the times as Christianity and Judaism did. It is (see next article) an intra and inter religious war with all. Let us all pray that Islam exits the 7th century and joins the 21st.
Muslims can't even tolerate other interpretations of their own religion.
So even those who pray to the same Allah, followed by Akhbar, are killing each other big time.
Why? because one of their "rabbis" has a slightly different interpretation of who inherited the mantle of the Big Kahuna. The sun does not shine on the Shiite if he is in the Sunni part of the world and vice versa.
So the problem has nothing to do with the Jews. It has to do with a religion that has not yet evolved with the times as Christianity and Judaism did. It is (see next article) an intra and inter religious war with all. Let us all pray that Islam exits the 7th century and joins the 21st.
109
You mean the fascist Judaism of Israel, the religious supremacism of Israel, a theocracy- not a democracy. Quite an advancement in the history of Judaism.
2
"So even those who pray to the same Allah, followed by Akhbar, are killing each other big time. "
Not as big as WWI and WWII, Christian Nations slaughtering each other.
Not as big as WWI and WWII, Christian Nations slaughtering each other.
FYI - Palestinians are both Muslim and Christian and do not have anything to do with the Shiite/Sunni issue you refrence since the Muslim Palestinians are predominantly Sunni. Google Bethlehem. This was not a religious war - thats a huge misconception and has nothing to do with facts. There was always peaceful coexistence between all three religions before the advent of the Jewish Zionist state of Israel.
1
USA is too involved in Israeli politics and nationality; we have tons of problems here in old ‘land of the inequality’ to include our murders by the scores. Every time one of the protagonists in Israel devolves into killing each other should not become headline news here.
I think we have enough collapsing infrastructure and “Ferguson” cities on our plates without constantly attending to that of Jerusalem's or any nations internal problems.
There have now become dangerously dual dependency between USA and Israel, wherein any threats to marriage and, or national sovereignty, that has become unhealthy. Therefore, other than our mutual security guarantees, we should either make Israel the fifty-first state or keep our distances financially and politically. It is better to do this while we are still talking, as in any marriages, there comes a time when parties just talk past each other. I know NYT and some readers may not agree, but it’s time to turn mother’s picture to the wall and cut this umbilical cord. 18:14 10/17/2015
I think we have enough collapsing infrastructure and “Ferguson” cities on our plates without constantly attending to that of Jerusalem's or any nations internal problems.
There have now become dangerously dual dependency between USA and Israel, wherein any threats to marriage and, or national sovereignty, that has become unhealthy. Therefore, other than our mutual security guarantees, we should either make Israel the fifty-first state or keep our distances financially and politically. It is better to do this while we are still talking, as in any marriages, there comes a time when parties just talk past each other. I know NYT and some readers may not agree, but it’s time to turn mother’s picture to the wall and cut this umbilical cord. 18:14 10/17/2015
10
"Therefore, other than our mutual security guarantees,..."
We have no such security guarantees. Lots of talk, but thankfully, nothing binding.
We have no such security guarantees. Lots of talk, but thankfully, nothing binding.
I think every Palestinian who lives in the West Bank should be required to visit one of the following cities: Aleppo, Mosul, Raqqua, or similar, so they can see who the real enemies are. Palestinians are being used as pawns in the Sunni-Shiite civil war, and are "ginned up" whenever things get bad so the local Arab populace can focus on a made up problem versus the real problems- corruption, dictatorships, religious warfare and tribal warfare (all for power and control) in the Arab world.
71
That picture is so tragic. A man from a people with a history of bombing and otherwise killing Israelis being told, nay FORCED to show he isn't carrying anything that could constitute a threat.
The horror.
The horror.
68
When I was last in Israel (2009), I had put on a few pounds that I've since lost, and I was very often wanded. And I'm Jewish.
4
Anyone notice the emotional uproar about the 13 year old Arab terrorist who supposedly was executed by Israeli police only to be seen in an Israeli hospital recuperating after being subdued in his attempt to murder a 13 year old Jewish boy by stabbing him many times? Is anyone in an uproar over the fact that the 13 year old Jewish boy has been on life support? No, I didn't think so...
159
Let's also not forget the Arab who got dressed up as a member of the press, with bulletproof vest and PRESS to signal himself as a (giggle) noncombatant before stabbing people. And the long use of Red Crescent vehicles to transport noncombatants.
61
I am aware; however that doesn't negate the years of Israel refusing to have two states and continuing to steal the palestinian's land and homes not to mention Israel's bombing 2,000 of those living in Gaza, many of whom are women and children.
East Jerusalem is part of the occupied territories.
The 4th Geneva Convention forbids the occupier from:
1) settling it's citizens in the occupied territory
2) arresting citizens of the occupied territories without charge
3) demotion of property in the occupied territory
4) restricting religious activity
Israel is in clear violation of the 4th Geneva convention and guilty of not only human rights abuse, but outright murder of those demonstrating against the occupation.
The 4th Geneva Convention forbids the occupier from:
1) settling it's citizens in the occupied territory
2) arresting citizens of the occupied territories without charge
3) demotion of property in the occupied territory
4) restricting religious activity
Israel is in clear violation of the 4th Geneva convention and guilty of not only human rights abuse, but outright murder of those demonstrating against the occupation.
45
Hundreds of thousand killed and murdered in Syria. Where do you think the world should be focusing?
37
Israel's neighbors should have let Israel live in peace in 1948. They didn't and every time one of the Arab efforts to destroy Israel fails, they claim victimhood. So forget the rhetoric about "occupied territories", it's a sick joke.
38
Many pro-Palestine activists and members of the international community falsely have claimed that Israel has violated the Fourth Geneva Convention. For example, a UN Human Rights Council panel has declared that Israel building Jewish communities in Judea and Samaria violates the Fourth Geneva Convention. Christine Chanet, the French judge who headed this U.N. inquiry, asserted, “To transfer its own population into an occupied territory is prohibited because it is an obstacle to the exercise of the right to self-determination.” Yet any careful examination of international law would establish that Judea and Samaria, as well as East Jerusalem, are not occupied territories and that the Geneva Convention spoke of forced transfers, such as what the Nazis did, not the voluntary transfers that Israel engages in.
40
So East Jerusalem Palestinian's are infuriated by having to pass through checkpoints and all the humiliation that comes with that . I get that .
My family in West Jerusalem would choose checkpoints anytime over the terrible fear of getting stabbed anywhere and everywhere. I pray for my family to return safely from the supermarket. When we absolutely have to leave the house it is with pepper spray or even a pot to hit back and protect . Checkpoints seem like a much more desirable alternative than the awful, claustrophobic reality we are living in.
My family in West Jerusalem would choose checkpoints anytime over the terrible fear of getting stabbed anywhere and everywhere. I pray for my family to return safely from the supermarket. When we absolutely have to leave the house it is with pepper spray or even a pot to hit back and protect . Checkpoints seem like a much more desirable alternative than the awful, claustrophobic reality we are living in.
174
The solution is then easy-- support two countries, Israel and Palestine, living side by side and a strong border between each.
BTW. No people-- Israeli or Palestine-- has a monopoly on suffering. So if you desire the option of safely walking to the supermarket, it is also true that the Palestinians also want the diginty to move without Israeli harassment.
BTW. No people-- Israeli or Palestine-- has a monopoly on suffering. So if you desire the option of safely walking to the supermarket, it is also true that the Palestinians also want the diginty to move without Israeli harassment.
19
i dont intend to be glib about your situation, but we cant expect total security to follow us wherever we choose to live.
whenever ive lived in unfamiliar places security was always an issue
if its th over riding issue perhaps you live in th wrong place
whenever ive lived in unfamiliar places security was always an issue
if its th over riding issue perhaps you live in th wrong place
1
Sara, I sympathize with the situation you're in. Hopefully you can help get rid of the extremists in the Israeli government who are responsible for your current situation (Netanyahu, Lieberman, Bennett, et al).
11
Says the man from the Israeli secret police:
“You get a [Palestinian] generation that has grown up with the messages that a Jew is someone who comes to harm us ..."
However would they have got that idea?
“You get a [Palestinian] generation that has grown up with the messages that a Jew is someone who comes to harm us ..."
However would they have got that idea?
43
They would get that idea from the same Palestinian propaganda machine that 1. shows a video tutorial of how to stab a Jew with a knife to inflict maximum damage and 2. Has their wonderful leader tell lies about the execution of a 13 year old Arab who in reality attacked and stabbed Jews and is being treated for his wounds in an Israeli hospital . Just 2 out of countless others. Hmm , food for thought much .
71
Right. Palestinians should have the right to stab without being harmed.
67
Palestinian children are educated to hate Jews by their religious leaders, political leaders, schools, and media. Their entire culture is saturated with lies about Jews and exhortations to kill them. This has been so for decades.
42
Just because Jews possessed the Temple Mount site some 2,000 years ago doesn't mean that presently some ancestor 4,000 generations down the line is entitled to legal possession of that site to the extent of taking it from the present possessor's who themselves have been in constant possession for about 1,400 years.
Let it be.
Let it be.
27
Bet you won't say the same if the roles were reversed. If Muslims where there first, it's their land forever. If Muslims occupy someone else's land, it's theirs forever. By your theory, the Jews have now had Temple Mount for many years. So, let it go, already.
10
Jews are from Judea
Arabs are from Arabia
These are facts
Arabs are from Arabia
These are facts
15
No one is taking the Temple Mount. Israel supports and maintains is and Myslims control it. By contrast - the Pals firebomb the tomb of Joseph. And when they controlled east Jerusalum they regularly desecrated Jewish sites - like using ancient Jewish headstones for roads.
16
The U.S. could solve this situation by putting diplomatic and foreign aid pressure on Israel. If the U.S. wanted a two-state solution, it would happen. A negotiated settlement would happen even with a right-winger like Netanyahu in charge of the political system in Israel.
39
Yeah... The US has so much power. The Israeli Jews are fighting to live and keep their culture alive. Where do you get off making judgement calls on them, while living a comfortable life in the US?
22
and who would the Israelis negotiate with? There is no leader on the other side.
43
There was a two state solution in 1948. The Arab nations couldn't leave it alone and attempted to destroy the state of Israel. What, on the order of 100 million Arabs against a million or so Israelis? That's a shame.
22
Arabs legally living in Israel are often treated worse than undocumented immigrants living in the US. Many don't have a right to get Israeli passports; even if they do, they can't visit their friends and relatives in Israeli-occupied areas without permission, which can be next to impossible to get. As a practical matter, most Arabs are living in ghettos under Israeli control. It's time for Israel to give Arabs their own country, including the slices of Jerusalem already occupied by Arabs.
42
"It's time for Israel to give Arabs their own country, including the slices of Jerusalem already occupied by Arabs."
I'm sorry, but the problem with this statement is that Arabs already have "their own country" more than a dozen times over--in Morocco, Tunisia, Libya, Algeria, Egypt, Jordan, Iraq, Lebanon, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Oman, Yemen, Kuwait, Qatar, Bahrain, and the United Arab Emirates.
Kind of like declaring that Canada should give the French-speaking people in Quebec their own country--as if French Canadians don't already have literally dozens of options if they wish to live in a country where French is the overwhelmingly dominant language.
I'm sorry, but the problem with this statement is that Arabs already have "their own country" more than a dozen times over--in Morocco, Tunisia, Libya, Algeria, Egypt, Jordan, Iraq, Lebanon, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Oman, Yemen, Kuwait, Qatar, Bahrain, and the United Arab Emirates.
Kind of like declaring that Canada should give the French-speaking people in Quebec their own country--as if French Canadians don't already have literally dozens of options if they wish to live in a country where French is the overwhelmingly dominant language.
20
They are treated that way because they have blown up buses, bars, people, buildings, cars, they have stabbed, raped and intimidated to the degree that the Israelis no longer trust them, gee I wonder why. Palestine lost their war in what 3 days, some men they are,was it 50 arabs to one Jew or something like that? Israel should just destroy the area and be done with it.
30
The Arabs have made clear they have no interest in such a country unless as a launch site to destroy Israel. See Gaza. They have had many opportunities for such a state from 1948 and have always insisted instead that the Jewish state must be destroyed
29
The quality of the Palestinian leadership has always been abysmal. Looking back three-quarters of a century, it is impossible to find a single reasonable man among them who was prepared to make a final decent settlement with Israel, one that exchanges substantial amounts of land for recognition of the Jewish state. One expects corrupt and extreme leaders in a conflict like this, particularly at the beginning, but the Palestinian ones grow worse over time and have now even reverted to spreading the basest of religious lies among their people. Lacking all vision and desire for a life with Israel as a friend and a neighbor, "they beat on [to quote Fitzgerald], boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past."
56
Yeah, Sitting Bull and the Sioux were in the same boat. Mandela managed to turn it around though. Maybe there is hope yet.
4
Sometimes a people's leadership is a reflection of the people's culture.
21
A. Stanton, if you were to check world currents you will find them gaining force against the extremists in Israel that are enflaming the conflict.
2
Please note that all Arab residents of annexed East Jersusalem have the right to Israeli citizenship. They have chosen not to accept citizenship. They have chosen the right to not to vote in Israeli elections. This is not apartheid.
80
If you take my land, ruin my business, and incarcerate my children do you really expect me to join your club?
20
Palestian leadership has directed its citizens to focus on the destruction of Israel instead of focusing on their lack of leadership. They're taught in school to hate & blame Israel for their plight. Why set up checkpoints where the boy was buried alive? The murderers were arrested. Israelis were upset & embarrassed. No secruity checkpoints were needed as this was an isolated incident (one was enough). Security checkpoints were needed to protect Israelis from murderers who are being supported by it's leadership and too many of it's people.
14
The poor children, incited to hate the Jews by their "leaders" and parents; and their culture. One wonders why Israel doesn't simply vanish in a puff of (virtual) smoke to placate you and those who seem to require such a perpetual and irreplaceable rationale for all that's wrong with what they see in a mirror.
9
It is the occupation. Israel is becoming a pariah, and all the spin in the world cannot cover up facts.
48
They are a pariah only in the eyes of Muslims and leftists primarily on college campuses. Israel is a model of productivity, civility and tolerance in an extremely hostile neighborhood.
22
Phil you are only fooling yourself. Denigrating the world's view of Israel, by condemning critics as leftists and Muslims shows that much of the support of Israel is based on bigotry and bias.
2
Phil
Not just "leftists on college campuses". It's been several decades since I was on campus and there are millions like me who see the current Israel not only as a pariah, but also a terrorist state. But when I was on campus, I was an avid Israel supporter. Over the decades successive Israeli governments have eroded my support.
Not just "leftists on college campuses". It's been several decades since I was on campus and there are millions like me who see the current Israel not only as a pariah, but also a terrorist state. But when I was on campus, I was an avid Israel supporter. Over the decades successive Israeli governments have eroded my support.
2
"Israel officially offers citizenship to allJerusalem Palestinians but only a tiny fraction apply."
Why is the word "officially" in this sentence? The fact is, Israel offers them citizenship. Period. "Only a tiny fraction apply." You can't have it both ways. Residency brings many rights. Citizenship even more. Perhaps these residents, exercising the right to vote in elections for the city government, could have more say in the distribution of services. But they reject Israeli citizenship.
Moreover, when Israel built a light rail service that offers transportation on an equal basis to east and west Jerusalem residents, it was denounced as illegal, and portrayed as a nefarious plot to annex East Jerusalem in the NY Times and throughout the Arab and western media. Again, you can't have it both ways.
Citizenship is there for the taking, and the majority prefer Israeli citizenship to Palestinian. What stops them from taking it, and participating in Israeli society, demanding equal treatment as equal citizens in non-violent ways?
Why is the word "officially" in this sentence? The fact is, Israel offers them citizenship. Period. "Only a tiny fraction apply." You can't have it both ways. Residency brings many rights. Citizenship even more. Perhaps these residents, exercising the right to vote in elections for the city government, could have more say in the distribution of services. But they reject Israeli citizenship.
Moreover, when Israel built a light rail service that offers transportation on an equal basis to east and west Jerusalem residents, it was denounced as illegal, and portrayed as a nefarious plot to annex East Jerusalem in the NY Times and throughout the Arab and western media. Again, you can't have it both ways.
Citizenship is there for the taking, and the majority prefer Israeli citizenship to Palestinian. What stops them from taking it, and participating in Israeli society, demanding equal treatment as equal citizens in non-violent ways?
25
If you take my land, ruin my business, and incarcerate my children do you really expect me to join your club?
10
What's stopping the Palestinians from taking Israeli citizenship? Israel itself! Besides, as Mr. Abu Hamed says," what difference would it make? ". A Palestinian is a Palestinian - Israeli passport or not!
2
Your comment is no more true or relevant for repetition.
6
I was in Jerusalem in April when anxiety over the Temple Mount was building and there were female protesters there on a daily basis. Overreactions possibly but despite being an American with no particular side on this issue, it was clear that the status quo had changed with Jews pushing for prayer and religious access. I am sure the narrative of them losing Al Asqa has been pushed hard but with everything that has happened over the last decade, the continued building of settlements and Bibi making it clear how the power structure really feels not really sure anyone should be surprised this boiled over.
17
Another person claiming special knowledge! I suppose it just happens that your special knowledge is both anti-Israel and you feel entitled to dismiss Prime Minister Netanyahu as "Bibi".
16
Articles about this conflict make me infinitely sad. But these articles must continue to be written. It is a documentation of the depths to which human hatred can sink, and how hopeless it is to snuff out its fire once it has crossed a certain point.
I refuse to take sides, I abstain from trying to understand; I believe there is a line past which human madness takes leave of any defense, or ability to understand. This conflict embodies that terrible place.
Articles like this make me feel infinitely sad, and hopeless. But they must continue to be written. Only a miracle can save these peoples, and that land, which has long lost its right to be called "holy."
I refuse to take sides, I abstain from trying to understand; I believe there is a line past which human madness takes leave of any defense, or ability to understand. This conflict embodies that terrible place.
Articles like this make me feel infinitely sad, and hopeless. But they must continue to be written. Only a miracle can save these peoples, and that land, which has long lost its right to be called "holy."
2
It doesn't take a miracle to stop educating a population to hate and inciting them to violence. It does take good leaders, of which the Palestinians have none.
31
After the May 2105 election Netanyahu wasted no time in stepping up the pace of ethnic cleansing by appointing as his justice minister Ayelet Shaked, who posted an article on her Facebook page that called for the destruction of “the entire Palestinian people, including its elderly & its women, its cities & its villages, its property & its infrastructure.”
It is not the American people who support the injustice in Palestine ,it is the AIPAC-controlled Congress & WH. eg.
1/ In 2009 when Israel invaded Gaza & killed 1400 people of which 2/3 were women & children , 334 members of Congress signed a letter to Obama to "Go Easy On Israel" while the 192 members of the UN GA voted by a margin of 93% to condemn & sanction Israel.
2/ It was NOT the Am.people that voted to donate $4 billion/yr to Israel or to create a special US tax loophole (~$2 billion/yr) for gifts to Israeli "charities" that build illegal settlements
3/ On July 18 2014 the US Senate voted to release a cache of US munitions in Israel to continue mowing the grass in Gaza.
4/ A 2014 NYT`s article quoted B.Baird a Dem. congressman: “The difficult reality is this: in order to get elected to Congress, if you’re not independently wealthy, you have to raise a lot of money &you learn pretty quickly that, if AIPAC is on your side, you can do that.” It also quoted J. Yarmuth, a congressman from Kentucky, on upholding the interests of the United States: “We all took an oath of office & AIPAC is asking us to ignore it.”
It is not the American people who support the injustice in Palestine ,it is the AIPAC-controlled Congress & WH. eg.
1/ In 2009 when Israel invaded Gaza & killed 1400 people of which 2/3 were women & children , 334 members of Congress signed a letter to Obama to "Go Easy On Israel" while the 192 members of the UN GA voted by a margin of 93% to condemn & sanction Israel.
2/ It was NOT the Am.people that voted to donate $4 billion/yr to Israel or to create a special US tax loophole (~$2 billion/yr) for gifts to Israeli "charities" that build illegal settlements
3/ On July 18 2014 the US Senate voted to release a cache of US munitions in Israel to continue mowing the grass in Gaza.
4/ A 2014 NYT`s article quoted B.Baird a Dem. congressman: “The difficult reality is this: in order to get elected to Congress, if you’re not independently wealthy, you have to raise a lot of money &you learn pretty quickly that, if AIPAC is on your side, you can do that.” It also quoted J. Yarmuth, a congressman from Kentucky, on upholding the interests of the United States: “We all took an oath of office & AIPAC is asking us to ignore it.”
1
What would happen if the Palestinians simply surrendered? What if they went to the U.N. and said, "right, we give up, we cede all our land to Israel. This all now Israel, and we are all now Israelis. Now, remind me, when is the next election?"
Isn't that what Mandela did in South Africa?
Isn't that what Mandela did in South Africa?
5
What would happen is peace. By the way, Jews outnumber Muslims West of the Jordan by 3-to-2. Israeli Christians have recently asked not to be called Arab...because they are not Arab...they were forced to speak it by Arab invaders...Israel gives them the freedom to say so...a freedom they are denied in every Arab country...when they are not being forced to convert, leave or die from those Arab countries (as in Syria and Iraq today and Lebanon in the 1970's and '80s and Sudan in the '90s).
20
That's exactly what they should do. Sure, their lives won't be any more equal than those in East Jerusalem, but it would be better than what they have today. They will at least be able to use the legal system to advance their interests like Jews do in the diaspora.
The bottom line that none of the young Palestinians committing these attacks (or their sympathizers, like the professor) seem to get is this: it will only make things worse. Violent "protest" and terrorist attacks have characterized the Palestinian reaction to living in a country they cannot control for more than half a decade. It has won them nothing but ever greater degrees of oppression. In the end, it will probably provide a leader like Netanyahu a pretext for expelling all of them all.
17
What a irreconcilable mess! The annexation of Jerusalem and the West Bank by Israel is irrevocable. The "Palestinians" should know when they are beat -and they are definitely beat. There will be no change - so accept it. Still, based on history, this will continue until all the "Palestinians" either convert or emigrate to America and start driving UBER vehicles in NYC. In the meanwhile - please - US - stay out of it.
5
The US is already in it....and I, for one, don't appreciate my tax dollars going to support Israel.
17
The Palestinian Authority regularly glorifies terrorists who kill Israelis. Nevertheless, U.S. taxes help pay salaries of these convicted Palestinian terrorists. ... the U.S. currently provides $400 million per year to the Palestinian......
http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/insideisrael/2014/June/Cash-for-Killers-US-Fu...
http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/insideisrael/2014/June/Cash-for-Killers-US-Fu...
5
Yeah, I feel the same way, but I don't appreciate my taX dollars going to any muslim country.
1
"East Jerusalem" is also the emotional heart for Jews, Ms. Rudoren. And it is called simply "Jerusalem."
61
East Jerusalem was majority Jewish in 1856 census, 40 years before Theodore Herzl. Jordan ethnically cleansed Jews from East Jerusalem in 1948. Maybe Jodi Rudoren supports that ethnic cleansing...and repeating it yet again.
18
Most of the 19th century, there were more Jews than Muslims in East Jerusalem. During the 20th century, until 1948 Jews were the majority of residents in Jerusalem.
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Jerusalem#Jews_as_a...
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Jerusalem#Jews_as_a...
35
In antiquity - there were likely more Jews in Alexandria, Egypt [a much larger and mor eimportant city] than in Jerusalem.
http://tinyurl.com/pf3r8k7
It is also the case that most of the 19th century, Muslims and Christians were 90%+ of the population of what is now Israel.
So then - tell me why Israel has the "right" to ethnically cleanse Jerusalem of the non-Jews who have lived there for centuries when Jews lived in large numbers *outside* Israel/Palestine for 2300 years, or more?
http://tinyurl.com/pf3r8k7
It is also the case that most of the 19th century, Muslims and Christians were 90%+ of the population of what is now Israel.
So then - tell me why Israel has the "right" to ethnically cleanse Jerusalem of the non-Jews who have lived there for centuries when Jews lived in large numbers *outside* Israel/Palestine for 2300 years, or more?
12
Israel is not ethnically cleansing Palestinians from Jerusalem. In 1967 there were approximately 68,000 Arabs living in Jerusalem. Today there are some 300,000. What an outrageous ethnic cleansing!
25
Q. the wikipedia statistics that you quote are not true. I've read that in the first half of the 20th century and late 19th century Jerusalem was 65%- 70% Arab. Christians resided there as well, and Jews were a minority. Although it is useful, Wikipedia is not the ultimate factual source on any subject.
1
I've always been fascinated by the apparent interest that East Asians have in Jewish culture and teachings. For example, the Talmud is a best-selling book in South Korea--a country inhabited by individuals who have a knack for learning from successful people and places (e.g. for all talk about how Koreans dislike the Japanese because of the legacy of the latter's rule over the former, Koreans became known for exhibiting a keen interest in emulating the Japanese pattern of economic development and education).
Is there simply no way for Arab Muslims to feel a similar interest in at least learning something from and about Jews and Judaism? This question may seem irrelevant, but I've always felt that peace and cordiality begin with respect (I note that no major interstate conflict has taken place in East Asia since 1979, despite assorted mutual antagonisms). Say what you want about the harshness of Israeli security forces in dealing with Palestinians--but as an (I'd like to think) impartial observer there is much to respect about Israel and Judaism in general.
Israel is a flawed state like all others, no doubt. But if the haters of Israel see their rage-fueled dream come true--Israel wiped off the map and its millions of Jewish residents fleeing for their lives in 8 different directions towards any and all countries willing to take them--there will be no winners in the Middle East, only losers. Arabs will be viewed as Germans were in 1945, and deserving of their fate.
Is there simply no way for Arab Muslims to feel a similar interest in at least learning something from and about Jews and Judaism? This question may seem irrelevant, but I've always felt that peace and cordiality begin with respect (I note that no major interstate conflict has taken place in East Asia since 1979, despite assorted mutual antagonisms). Say what you want about the harshness of Israeli security forces in dealing with Palestinians--but as an (I'd like to think) impartial observer there is much to respect about Israel and Judaism in general.
Israel is a flawed state like all others, no doubt. But if the haters of Israel see their rage-fueled dream come true--Israel wiped off the map and its millions of Jewish residents fleeing for their lives in 8 different directions towards any and all countries willing to take them--there will be no winners in the Middle East, only losers. Arabs will be viewed as Germans were in 1945, and deserving of their fate.
12
The Talmud is generally published in about thirty volumes, each of which will do to stun a fair-size deer. Much of it (Tractate Yoma, for example), has to do with things that have very limited relevance to present-day Judaism. I doubt if the complete, or any substantial portion, of the Talmud, is a best seller anywhere.
3
"I doubt if the complete, or any substantial portion, of the Talmud, is a best seller anywhere."
Well, The New Yorker appears to claim that it is, in South Korea: http://www.newyorker.com/books/page-turner/how-the-talmud-became-a-best-...
Well, The New Yorker appears to claim that it is, in South Korea: http://www.newyorker.com/books/page-turner/how-the-talmud-became-a-best-...
2
"Will do to stun a fair size deer." Provide video proof, please. I will wait for that.
What this article and others alike fail to put at the forefront of necessary and factual context, is the fact that these are terrorist acts of ramming into innocent Israeli civilians , hacking them with knives , murdering innocent civilian parents in cold blood in front of their children for no reason other than they are Jews . This is antisemitsim at its worst and yet there are justifications from articles such as these not condemning but condoning ... Condoning these barbaric horrific acts ! There is no justification for terror - EVER . When that context is at the forefront then people will see why peace seems forever elusive .
126
I would suggest that Israel get out of the occupied territories and stop building in East Jerusalem. Has the government given any consideration to this strategy
6
Of course when those "innocent Israeli civilians" are living on what most of the world sees as illegally occupied land, there is likely to be some ill feelings. And that that spills over into periodic violence should not really be a surprise. Lack of empathy for the other side translates into a situation that will not be resolved in our lifetimes. Better that the USA disengages completely. What is De Blasio doing in that part of the world in the first place?
20
Anyone who needs to put "innocent Israeli civilians" in quotation marks exhibits a definitive lack of empathy. Hatred of Israel knows no bounds for some.
11
The world watches for this sporadic violence to escalate into in inferno. it reminds one of how the two-state "solution" will be a divisive accord. Peace is hard won.
3
The Jordanians kick out the Palestinians with their "Black September"; In Lebanon they are kept in camps and refused citizenship. The Egyptians have walled off Gaza and flooded their tunnels.Syria had them in camps too with no citizenship allowed. Perhaps there is a pattern of treatment here to discern. Like begets like.If they were a peaceful people and patient ,at their birthrate, they would have been the majority in Israel. Think of how that partnership would have worked out in a democracy with the population working together rather than the mantra of "Destroy Israel" as a premise.
31
I'm very amused by this thread.Most of it, the anti-Israel chorus specifically whose overall lack of knowledge of the last 70 years in particular screams from every comment. As others have noted, the arabs were noticeably compliant and passive under the thumb of the Jordanians from 1948-1967. The Jordanians despised the West Bank arabs and killed thousands of them in the Black September events. But for those 20 odd years it was arabs being ruled by other arabs and that was/is the historically accepted normative for the region.Muslims ruling other muslims. It was only when the Jews, that despised people who in Islam are the people forsaken by God and condemned to be second-class citizens or dhimmis under muslim rule, these same Jews regained their ancestral homeland and defeated repeated arab attempts to annihilate them, well, this was/is unacceptable to every orthodox cleric shouting out the hatred of the Jews and proclaiming it is the responsibility of every muslim to join the fight to retake Jerusalem from the hated yahud. So Obama and Kerry and every other politician talk about this conflict as if its a simple matter of land, ignoring the very real, hard and cold truth that it is all about religion and the muslims unwillingness to allow a non-muslim people to rule in the Middle East. Of course if you've been paying attention to ISIS you already know what underlies the conflict between islam and the non-muslim world.
83
You are so right!
3
Isn't it odd that the "emotional heart of Palestinian life" is in an area that had only a separate existence between 1949-67, when it was cleansed by the Jordanians of its Jewish inhabitants? Odder still, Jordan (carved out of the Eastern part of the Mandate for Palestine in 1923) never established a Palestinian state on the West Bank, let alone make East Jerusalem a capital city. Still odder was the 1964 PLO Charter which expressly disclaimed any Palestinian sovereignty to that city and the West Bank. That the PA set itself up in Ramallah should not surprise Rudoren, that was the Ottoman's administrative center. Jerusalem was of interest to Muslims only when non-Muslims controlled it.
If something similar was happening in any Western country, the Palestinian-equivalent population would face far harsher treatment. After all, Europe solved its nationality issues after WWII (and most recently in Yougoslavia) almost entirely through ethnic cleansing and displacement, but Israel - during that same time period - followed a different path and now has a 20% Muslim population. Yet once again, we read here that Israel is the principal villain and cause for Arab disappointment. Really?
If something similar was happening in any Western country, the Palestinian-equivalent population would face far harsher treatment. After all, Europe solved its nationality issues after WWII (and most recently in Yougoslavia) almost entirely through ethnic cleansing and displacement, but Israel - during that same time period - followed a different path and now has a 20% Muslim population. Yet once again, we read here that Israel is the principal villain and cause for Arab disappointment. Really?
87
Israel is the principal villain. Everyone outside of Israel understands this, but the Israeli government chooses not to officially acknowledge the obvious.
13
I recall, on a visit to Israel, a joke issue of Ha'aretz that had Rabin agreeing to withdraw to six square blocks of Tel Aviv, plus a felafel stand. Arafat found it insufficient.
9
no Arab incitement is the principal villain, in Israel and throughout the Arab world.
10
Bibi likes things the way they are now and has no intention of changing things, other than seizing more land with his settlements. He mows the lawn when the frustrations of the Palestinians result in violence and always makes sure that at least 10 of the Palestinians are killed for every Israeli death and destroys much of the Palestinian infrastructure. He destroys the homes that the dead Palestinians lived in, without regard for the rest of the family living there. Most of the rest of the world sees his actions for what they are, but the US continues hand over more and more aid, even as he meddles in our politics and criticize our President. We are told that the US benefits greatly from this relationship with Israel, but all it seems to get us is more grief from the rest of the world, especially in the Middle East, and more national debt.
52
Yes I am quite sure that Bibi enjoys his citizens and friends being carved up by zombielike 13 year old boys and girls. He just is celebrating. How can you look in the mirror if you do not see how horrific this behavior is?
9
The U.S. supports Israel, not because doing so benefits the U.S., but because most Americans think it is the right thing to do (You may not think it is the right thing to do, but American support is not based on "benefits"). As for the Israeli crackdown in the wake of the stabbings, which you bemoan, there is a simple solution: don't be stabbing.
As for "grief" in the Middle East, the claim that it is due to the existence of Israel (or American support of Israel) has long been exposed as pure propaganda in light of the barbaric practices and internecine fighting among ISIS, Iran, Syria, the Taliban, etc. Anyone who believes that the current Shiite-Sunni death struggle would go away if Israel went away is living in fairy tale land.
As for "grief" in the Middle East, the claim that it is due to the existence of Israel (or American support of Israel) has long been exposed as pure propaganda in light of the barbaric practices and internecine fighting among ISIS, Iran, Syria, the Taliban, etc. Anyone who believes that the current Shiite-Sunni death struggle would go away if Israel went away is living in fairy tale land.
15
I suspect the Israelis, who care what the world thinks, show far more consideration for the family of the stabbers, than the stabbers show for the family of their victims.
12
This article attempts to explain the reasons for the recent spate of attacks. Because after all there must be a reason for why these youths are going on stabbing sprees even though this means almost certain death for them.
However to try to explain why people are doing something is plain out ridiculous when those people themselves have clearly stated the reasons for why they are doing it.
All of the attackers gave one of two reasons for why they set out to carry out these attacks. And both are based not on things that are happening in the real world but purely in lies being spread by Palestinian incitement. The main one was to fight for al Aqsa (the Temple Mount) because of the lie that the Israeli government plans to take part of it for the Jews.
The other was that photos of Palestinian attackers who were killed to stop them from killing people are being presented on social media as having been killed in cold blood, either with no reference to the fact that they were in the midst of a stabbing spree, or that the allegation that they were at all in the midst of an attack is an Israeli lie. And that these youths have told people that they are going to take revenge for those killings.
Just about every single attacker was no older than a teenager, the type that take what they see on social media as the factual truth. And this is what these attacks are about. Kids getting enraged over total lies. They have nothing to do with anything going on in actual reality.
However to try to explain why people are doing something is plain out ridiculous when those people themselves have clearly stated the reasons for why they are doing it.
All of the attackers gave one of two reasons for why they set out to carry out these attacks. And both are based not on things that are happening in the real world but purely in lies being spread by Palestinian incitement. The main one was to fight for al Aqsa (the Temple Mount) because of the lie that the Israeli government plans to take part of it for the Jews.
The other was that photos of Palestinian attackers who were killed to stop them from killing people are being presented on social media as having been killed in cold blood, either with no reference to the fact that they were in the midst of a stabbing spree, or that the allegation that they were at all in the midst of an attack is an Israeli lie. And that these youths have told people that they are going to take revenge for those killings.
Just about every single attacker was no older than a teenager, the type that take what they see on social media as the factual truth. And this is what these attacks are about. Kids getting enraged over total lies. They have nothing to do with anything going on in actual reality.
28
You are 100% correct. Read this morning's front page story by Isabel Kirschner where she describes this violence as having resulted from a "dispute" regarding al Aqsa. THERE IS NO DISPUTE! There is zero evidence suggesting Israel intends to change the current arrangement in any way. There is PLENTY of evidence suggesting that the Palestinian "leaders" are lying to their people and whipping them into a frenzy claiming Israel plans on limiting their access to the site.
10
Why would teenagers who have their entire lives s head of them would go and do the unthinkable? they rather die with pride than continue living under the occupation of an agressor with no light in sight. Enough is enough, it's sickening to watch, its been 3 generations now since 1948 occupation started and isralies think they can build walls to hide behind them and continue to keep the world away from seeing the truth. Wont last forever
So, reading once again about the intractable problem, what is the solution?
(A) One state comprising all of Israel+West Bank+Gaza, with (now) roughly 12 million people about evenly divided between Israelis and Palestinians; or, (B) Two states, each with about 6 million people. Is there a (C) option? Right now, and for the past 50 years, the only (C) is the current "occupation" model.
Nice as it may seem, (A) does appear to be impossible for the Israelis, unless it is basically the same as (C), which the Palestinians can never accept. (B) does seem possible, but only if the Palestinians can accept permanent Israeli military controls of the external borders of the entire area and if the new Palestinian state has no military force except for internal security. Could the Palestinians ever accept this? What might the Israelis agree to accept in return for these minimum conditions? Please, back to the negotiation tables!
(A) One state comprising all of Israel+West Bank+Gaza, with (now) roughly 12 million people about evenly divided between Israelis and Palestinians; or, (B) Two states, each with about 6 million people. Is there a (C) option? Right now, and for the past 50 years, the only (C) is the current "occupation" model.
Nice as it may seem, (A) does appear to be impossible for the Israelis, unless it is basically the same as (C), which the Palestinians can never accept. (B) does seem possible, but only if the Palestinians can accept permanent Israeli military controls of the external borders of the entire area and if the new Palestinian state has no military force except for internal security. Could the Palestinians ever accept this? What might the Israelis agree to accept in return for these minimum conditions? Please, back to the negotiation tables!
2
Jews are anxious to coexist with Arabs. "Palestinians" want every Jew gone from Israel. It's the root cause of the Arab-Israel conflict. For overwhelming evidence read Caroline Glick's book, "The Israeli Solution: A One-State Plan for Peace in the Middle East."
There definitely is a (C) option -- a Jewish state comprising the current Israel + West Bank, and continuation of the status quo in Gaza, sixty percent of the population of the Jewish State being Jewish based on current figures.
There definitely is a (C) option -- a Jewish state comprising the current Israel + West Bank, and continuation of the status quo in Gaza, sixty percent of the population of the Jewish State being Jewish based on current figures.
4
This situation is exhausting. Have you ever met a person who is incapable of dealing with a situation in the here and now? Instead of trying to be reality based, they instead go back to the beginning of time, the conversation gets bogged down, and nothing ever gets accomplished. It's just a cycle of blame. I recall John Kerry was in the area trying to work on this, but Mr Netanyahu and his buddies were having a good time making fun of his efforts, and then they decided to spend the rest of the summer blowing up Gaza. I think we should all direct our thoughts to the UN who created this mess. And I would also like to point out, in all this talk of this is mine, no it's mine, there are a lot of people in this world, either for historical or religious reasons, who would like to safely visit this area, and can't because it seems to be run by two street gangs. Internationalize Jerusalem?
15
Because of the hundreds of thousands of Israelis now settled on land that was supposed to be incorporated into a future Palestinian state, it's unlikely that there will ever be a viable two state solution that both Jews and Palestinians would endorse. Instead, with an increasing Palestinian population and an increasing Jewish population throughout the West Bank it is impossible to envision the borders for two separate states. Perhaps the most feasible and the best outcome would be the phase in over time of a democratic,secular one state solution that protects the rights of all the inhabitants of the Holy Land. In the 21st C isn't it time to reject any notions of a state based solely on religion? Such a state has the possibility of replacing decades of blood and hate with peace and prosperity. Keeping the status quo will inevitably lead to more decades of war and violence instead of the peace that most inhabitants must yearn for. Disastrously for both Palestinaians and Israelis, the fanatics and extremists will continue to do all they can to sabotage any hopes for peace.
8
Jerusalem was never supposed to be incorporated into any Arab state. The 1947 UN partition plan designated Jerusalem as an area under international regime. Arabs were a minority in Jerusalem until 1948.
9
Oh, the wonderful one state solution. How's that working out for the shiites and sunnis in Iraq? The Alawaites and Sunnis in Syria? You end up with collapsed states consisting of armed camps periodically suicide bombing each other's kindergartens. And that's just Muslim on Muslim violence. The Jews of Israel would never submit to that, and they never should.
Israel will never submit to its own genocide.
And please, to all the informed people who want to claim Israel is committing genocide against the Palestinians: The Palestinian population has increased nine-fold in the seven decades since Israel was founded, and half of them live under Israeli governance. The Nazi regime killed 85% of all the Jews in Europe in its brief 12 years. The world Jewish population has still not reached its pre-WWII numbers. That's what real genocide looks like.
Israel will never submit to its own genocide.
And please, to all the informed people who want to claim Israel is committing genocide against the Palestinians: The Palestinian population has increased nine-fold in the seven decades since Israel was founded, and half of them live under Israeli governance. The Nazi regime killed 85% of all the Jews in Europe in its brief 12 years. The world Jewish population has still not reached its pre-WWII numbers. That's what real genocide looks like.
8
With all the Christian and Muslim countries in the world, and many Muslim countries war-torn with Muslim fighting Muslim, why is it that people propose there be no Jewish country? That the world reverse the status of the country the Jews rebuilt? Israel, it should be known, is not based on religion. It is a country of the Jewish people, who are a people because of their language, culture, and history as well as their religion. Jews are an ancient people who had a country before there was a Christian or Muslim religion, and Israel is the modern-day state of the Jewish people.
8
The headline is always - A Palestinian knifed, shot, suicide bombed, bombed, running cars into - killing Israelis. What about the constant dehumanization, soul-destroying degradation of Palestinian bodies and minds? Are only Israeli lives of consequence?The Palestinians' lives are even worse than under a despot where death could be a release. The Palestinians don't even have the luxury of death. Their's is a 'living' hell, a 'living' death. And of course, the root cause is overlooked - Instigation.
29
There is no dehumanization. There is no degradation of Palestinians in Israel.
There is fear. Since the Intifada's Jews are scared of Arabs and fear them. The truth's of this were revealed in the past couple of weeks.
Many East Jerusalemites are well off economically, and all Arabs in Israel have the same liberties and Arabs in Israel have the same rights to welfare in Israel and a very high percentage take all the welfare payments they can get.
The article says 52% told an opinion poll that they would prefer to join Israel than a Palestinian state. Most Arabs wont talk -- the real number is 80% prefer to join Israel
There is fear. Since the Intifada's Jews are scared of Arabs and fear them. The truth's of this were revealed in the past couple of weeks.
Many East Jerusalemites are well off economically, and all Arabs in Israel have the same liberties and Arabs in Israel have the same rights to welfare in Israel and a very high percentage take all the welfare payments they can get.
The article says 52% told an opinion poll that they would prefer to join Israel than a Palestinian state. Most Arabs wont talk -- the real number is 80% prefer to join Israel
9
Anyone who has actually been to Palestinian cities will have seen people living their lives no differently than people anywhere else. This is why there are no headlines about the "living hell" that is the life of Palestinians.
9
So now being slaughtered en masse by a dictator is better than having to submit to "dehumanization" ie checkpoints and the like. So the 200,000 plus slaughtered by Assad are better off than the Arab professor at Hebrew University who has to see houses of Jews outside his window, and submit to being searched during a time of murderous knife attacks. "Death could be a release" NI says! What a despicable, murderous, anti-human point of view. All for the sake of demonizing Israel. "The living death" of having settlements built on land adjacent to one's neighborhood! The Horror! The Horror!
12
It isw time the brutal 66 year occupation of Palestine ended.
20
If the Palestinians chose the path of aggressive non-violence taken by Gandhi and Martin Luther King and their followers they would achieve their goals much, much faster.
9
That has pretty much been the West Bank for a decade up until now. Settlement building continued.
Isolated thousands, Hindi and Muslim, were massacred on each side of the partition which resulted from Gandhi's good work.
Wake up! The "Palestinian" goal is the death of the Jews and the theft of their property.
4
"Would someone please explain to me what right Israelis have to build settlements outside of their borders?"
The same rights as the British, French, Dutch and Spanish settlers had to settle in America. The same rights as the Czechs have to the Sudetenland, the French have to Alsace-Loraine, the Americans have to Guam and Puerto Rico and Texas, etc. They won the right, and more legitimately than many other countries who were the aggressors, not the attacked.
The same rights as the British, French, Dutch and Spanish settlers had to settle in America. The same rights as the Czechs have to the Sudetenland, the French have to Alsace-Loraine, the Americans have to Guam and Puerto Rico and Texas, etc. They won the right, and more legitimately than many other countries who were the aggressors, not the attacked.
22
Then live with the consequences if you choose to continue as an occupier vs an integrator of both people and live fairly together
1
So your position is that two wrongs make a right and that the victor in war may snatch up the other guys' land.
Tell me, when do you want to formally annex Italy, Germany and Japan and make them American states?
Tell me, when do you want to formally annex Italy, Germany and Japan and make them American states?
1
Israel has border with Jordan and Egypt-The borders with Lebanon, Syria and Jordan are based on those drawn up by the United Kingdom and France in anticipation of the defeat of the Ottoman Empire in the First World War and the carve up of the Ottoman Empire between them. They are referred to as the 1923 Paulet-Newcombe Agreement borders, being those of Mandate Palestine, which were settled in 1923. Israel's borders with Egypt and Jordan have now been formally recognized and confirmed as part of the peace treaties with those countries, and with Lebanon as part of the 1949 Armistice Agreements. The borders with Syria and the Palestinian territories are still in dispute.[1]...(wiki)
Israel only has border with Jordan-on the east
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borders_of_Israel
Israel only has border with Jordan-on the east
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borders_of_Israel
2
Why this, why now?
Could it be that Iran's illegitimate, unelected ruler Khamenei is the impetus behind this latest effort to make life in Israel miserable for Jews with his recent pronouncement, on or about September 9, 2015, that Israel “will not be around in 25 years’ time, and God willing, there will be no Zionist regime in 25 years. [That],during this period, the spirit of fighting, heroism and jihad will keep you worried every moment.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/10/world/middleeast/iran-ayatollah-khamen...
Tell me Khameini, where are the Israeli people, most of them native-born, supposed to go, Mars?
Like it or not, THIS is their homeland.
Could it be that Iran's illegitimate, unelected ruler Khamenei is the impetus behind this latest effort to make life in Israel miserable for Jews with his recent pronouncement, on or about September 9, 2015, that Israel “will not be around in 25 years’ time, and God willing, there will be no Zionist regime in 25 years. [That],during this period, the spirit of fighting, heroism and jihad will keep you worried every moment.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/10/world/middleeast/iran-ayatollah-khamen...
Tell me Khameini, where are the Israeli people, most of them native-born, supposed to go, Mars?
Like it or not, THIS is their homeland.
13
We've heard these same "my side (whichever) is a group of angels, and its all the fault of the other side" arguments/justifications over and over again, to the point that readers of the I/P articles/blogs can recite each side's talking points in their sleep. How about as an exercise in expanding horizons, the fiercely pro-Likud and the fiercely pro-PA/Hamas partisans, easily identifiable by their user names on past posts, submit posts giving the arguments of the side they've heretofore despised? Who knows, maybe things won't seem so black and white ever after?
1
Does it not seem as though - we have looked at this situation - seemingly forever; and no one in this deadlock is willing to compromise enough for peace? But occupation (Bibi's words) is OK, as is suicide stabbing.
Mike, go live in the grey area of Brussels or Malmo and see if your eyesight begins to improve.
1
Thank you for a refreshingly balanced narrative, wonderful op ed piece, what most Americans don't realize is that many if not the majority of Israelis understand and sympathize with these challenges, that is why they voted to get rid of Bibi in the last election and have a more moderate leader, like the man said "give peace a chance".
2
Jews are anxious to coexist with Arabs. "Palestinians" want every Jew gone from Israel. It's the root cause of the Arab-Israel conflict. For overwhelming evidence read Caroline Glick's book, "The Israeli Solution: A One-State Plan for Peace in the Middle East."
17
We have put sanctions on Russia for Annexing Crimea, its time to do the same for Israel now.
19
No doubt because of Crimea's recent and unprovoked war of aggression against Russia. Somehow I can't recall when that occurred. When was that, exactly?
3
Munnayer said it best on CNN: "Of course, Palestinians are not satisfied with their own government. And unfortunately a lot of that has to do with the fact that the government, the Palestinian Authority has staked its reputation on negotiations with Israel that have only resulted not in the promised independence and sovereignty of a Palestinian state but the deepening of occupation and expansion of settlements.
So, at a time when the Israelis really need the Palestinian Authority to have some sort of legitimacy with the Palestinian people, they found out that their very own policies have undercut that legitimacy. And the young people in the streets who are frustrated by Israeli occupation and don’t see any end to it are not going to be listening to leaders which have been rendered ineffective."
So, at a time when the Israelis really need the Palestinian Authority to have some sort of legitimacy with the Palestinian people, they found out that their very own policies have undercut that legitimacy. And the young people in the streets who are frustrated by Israeli occupation and don’t see any end to it are not going to be listening to leaders which have been rendered ineffective."
20
The Arab goal is elimination of Israel and its Jews not an independent state of their own.
10
Is that why they rejected a full offer of statehood first made by Ehud Barak with Bill Clinton giving them 100% of Gaza, 95% of the West Bank with land swaps and a redivided Jerusalem in return to a final end of the conflict and an end to any further claims? Only to see Arafat walk away without counter offer, instead answering with the 2nd Intifada and its waves of suicide bombers requiring the construction of the security wall? Is that why they rejected a second offer of the same -- actually an even more generous 97% of the West Bank with land swaps -- made by Ehud Olmert with George Bush, only to see Abbas walk away without reply and letting the offer die? The fact pro-palestinian true believers won't face is that the Palestinians have had many chances to actually have a state, but they've rejected them all. It seems that killing Jews is far more of a priority than the messy compromises and final agreements actually getting a state requires. Whether their state would in the end turn into another Iraq or Syria afterwards is another question.
12
After WWII 25,000,000 refugees -- more than the entire population of New York + New England -- were resettled within 5 years. Most ended up in new countries where they had to learn a new language. It was done peacefully even though they lost what they had before the war.
The Palestinians, in contrast, refused the state offered by the UN, got embroiled in 3 wars -- that they lost - and created modern terrrorism, attacking elementary schools, restaurants, weddings, airplanes, athletes, store clerks on busses.
As long as the world treats them like cuddly teddy bears while they have "religious" leaders teaching hatred for Jews (not Israelis -- Jews), and as long as they cannot create their own viable government, the notion of a state is risible. It is the fantasy that these people are ready for statehood, when in fact they want to take over their neighboring country, that feeds this.
The "despair" is over their stupidity, and the futility of not settling this issue once and for all. When more than 50% want armed struggle, they will get it, but not a state.
Someone needs to talk straight with these people. Apparently our government is not up to the task.
The Palestinians, in contrast, refused the state offered by the UN, got embroiled in 3 wars -- that they lost - and created modern terrrorism, attacking elementary schools, restaurants, weddings, airplanes, athletes, store clerks on busses.
As long as the world treats them like cuddly teddy bears while they have "religious" leaders teaching hatred for Jews (not Israelis -- Jews), and as long as they cannot create their own viable government, the notion of a state is risible. It is the fantasy that these people are ready for statehood, when in fact they want to take over their neighboring country, that feeds this.
The "despair" is over their stupidity, and the futility of not settling this issue once and for all. When more than 50% want armed struggle, they will get it, but not a state.
Someone needs to talk straight with these people. Apparently our government is not up to the task.
193
Perhaps their attachment to their land is equally as strong as the Jews. Hope they don't have to wait 2,000 years to attain their rights.
9
Allan H. "The Palestinians, in contrast, refused the state offered by the UN"
Let's suppose the UN decides to give Syrian refugees a good chunk of Israel. Do you think the Israelis might object? Can you imagine that some may even fight for their land?
Let's suppose the UN decides to give Syrian refugees a good chunk of Israel. Do you think the Israelis might object? Can you imagine that some may even fight for their land?
What you call "peaceful resettlement" was actually colonization a region and it's native population, taking their land because the Great White Powers of the West said it was ok, and creating millions of refugees who uprooted would end up living in camps as second class citizens, fenced in with no hope or normal life--with little access to food, work, education, sanitation, electricity, mobility, safety, stability and, of course, and often LIFE itself. If the "settlers" in the U.S. had not so successfully eradicated the native population so the America, do you think those subjugated people would not rise up? Methods of violence and non-violence aside--what is this meaningless charade of pretending that "these people" are not just trying to live lives like you and I? And no, before you label me anti-semitic. I am very clearly speaking of the Israel government and it's right-wing policies of divide and conquer among it's citizens and the Palestinian people. It is foolish to equate the Jewish diaspora with the Tea Party of Israel, and you should not be so offensive to label us ignorant enough to believe the false equivalences your propaganda machine has prepped you to further.
1
The cruel, simplistic knee-jerk Israel is right response by most of the commenters here is disturbing. Hardly a one sees the Palestinians as humans. That's the start of the problem. Israelis, as the story points out over and over and over, clearly don't. The whacko rationales offered here -- the problem is the Palestinian Authority for example (really?) is indicative of the heart-heartedness and thick-headedness. As always, there is a simple test to determine if there is fairness. Simply reverse the nationalities of the people presented and see if Jews would be comfortable being treated the way the Palestinians are. The answer is no, obviously. I can hear the objections --the Palestinians are this, they're that, they're not a real people, etc. But the simple test is true. Simply reverse the names and tell me how comfortable you would be.
184
If the tables were reversed the Jews would be dead or driven out. That's how minorities fare in the Arab Muslim world.
20
In reality is was reversed. East Jerusalem was supposed to be part of Israel but Jordan captured it in the 1948 war and "occupied" it. Jordan proceeded to expel all the Jews and stole Jewish headstones with which to build military latrines and roads. East Jerusalem was recaptured by Israel in the 1967 war. Israel did not expel the Palestinians but offered them Israeli citizenship, which was refused. Did the Israelis expel those Palestinians? No, they didn't.
As for the Palestinian Authority, its leaders deny the Holocaust, accuse Jews of blood libel, claim there never was a Jewish temple, and generally incite their people to violence. The latest clashes are because the PA said Israel was going to change the rules as to who would be in charge of the Al-Aqsa mosque--not true--and that Israeli solders had executed a 13-year-old boy for no reason--also not true but Mahmoud Abbas went on television to broadcast it anyway--he stabbed a Jewish 13-year-old boy, was shot and taken to the hospital, where he remains.
As for the Palestinian Authority, its leaders deny the Holocaust, accuse Jews of blood libel, claim there never was a Jewish temple, and generally incite their people to violence. The latest clashes are because the PA said Israel was going to change the rules as to who would be in charge of the Al-Aqsa mosque--not true--and that Israeli solders had executed a 13-year-old boy for no reason--also not true but Mahmoud Abbas went on television to broadcast it anyway--he stabbed a Jewish 13-year-old boy, was shot and taken to the hospital, where he remains.
13
That is not and never has been the "start of the problem". The problem goes the other direction. The Palestinian Authority, which has stolen billions of dollars between 2008-2012 in corruption and left its people in poverty while refusing peace offers in 2000, 2001, and 2008 is indeed the problem.
This false equivalence is absurd. Reversing the names, if Jews were as aggressive and supported (as polls say 57% of Palestinians do) murdering Palestinian civilians en masse, I would feel perfectly comfortable calling them wrong.
Please drop the false equivalence. The idea that the occupation causes the violence is backwards; Israel began the occupation as a result of a defensive war Palestinians sought and helped start. That's why Fatah, which today runs the Palestinian Authority, was attacking Israel in 1965; while being occupied by Jordan, and two years before a single Israeli settlement was built or before the occupation by Israel began.
This false equivalence is absurd. Reversing the names, if Jews were as aggressive and supported (as polls say 57% of Palestinians do) murdering Palestinian civilians en masse, I would feel perfectly comfortable calling them wrong.
Please drop the false equivalence. The idea that the occupation causes the violence is backwards; Israel began the occupation as a result of a defensive war Palestinians sought and helped start. That's why Fatah, which today runs the Palestinian Authority, was attacking Israel in 1965; while being occupied by Jordan, and two years before a single Israeli settlement was built or before the occupation by Israel began.
5
I see no reason why Israel should do anything other than protect its citizens, at whatever cost to the Palestinian aggressor.
108
Ditto.
6
I see a very good reason why both sides should consider doing things a lot different than they have been; to benefit the future generations that would perhaps rather not live in an environment of hatred and fear and violence. But to achieve that people would have to have the courage to look beyond their own security to consider that of the other. What a day that would be, not just for Palestine, but for the whole human race.
3
Ah, but the Palestinian "aggressor" is an invention of the occupier, Israel, which acts as a terrorist to control the occupied peoples.
In Jerusalem last May as a tourist with many visits to the Old Town..via the Damascus Gate (having stayed near the infamous and historical American Colony Hotel). Actually, it seemed peaceful, but that said, one could feel some tension.
In the evenings, the streets were basically cleared. One morning early at 0530, I walked from my place of stay to a large hotel to meet the tourist bus for Golan Heights...at about 0600 a stream of heavily armed men and several women left the hotel...one fellow with a 7.62 tripod MG. It appears most hotel near the Old Town have dedicated outside "protection" in the event of a terrorist related situation.
The Western Wall is easily visited with the Dome of the Rock in the nearby distance. So, close..but, so far in so many ways.
There will never be total peace in that part of the world..there has just been too much blood. The hearts and minds of each side will never mend. At least no in my lifetime or thereafter.
In the evenings, the streets were basically cleared. One morning early at 0530, I walked from my place of stay to a large hotel to meet the tourist bus for Golan Heights...at about 0600 a stream of heavily armed men and several women left the hotel...one fellow with a 7.62 tripod MG. It appears most hotel near the Old Town have dedicated outside "protection" in the event of a terrorist related situation.
The Western Wall is easily visited with the Dome of the Rock in the nearby distance. So, close..but, so far in so many ways.
There will never be total peace in that part of the world..there has just been too much blood. The hearts and minds of each side will never mend. At least no in my lifetime or thereafter.
6
Over 300,000 Palestinians live in Jerusalem with no representation or voice in city government. Israel does not consider their rights when it makes it's plans for settlements of Jews all over the city. We often are told how Israel is a democracy. Why not give the occupied people a voice in their own city?
43
Israel certainly did that with Gaza. How'd that work out?
5
They have full voting right but refuse to exercise them in a futile boycott. It's not Israel's fault they won't play ball. If they voted they would control over a third of the city council seats and could steer projects their way.
4
if they voted they would be represented.
3
Instead of fulfilling its founders' hopes that Israel would become a haven for Jews in a hostile world, the opposite is happening. Militant Zionism is setting the ground for a world-wide attack on the Jewish people in the diaspora.
19
So antisemitism is once again the fault of the Jews?
1
"Israel captured it all from Jordan in the 1967 war"
That's right. Israel captured it in the process of defending itself against the declared Arab war of total annihilation of the Jews. Sorry we won. It's hard to worry about Arab dignity when they've been working steadily toward your destruction.
And while I don't care for the current Israeli government, or for the settlements, I have no desire to help the Arabs - whether they be Palestinians or ISIS - achieve their ultimate goal.
That's right. Israel captured it in the process of defending itself against the declared Arab war of total annihilation of the Jews. Sorry we won. It's hard to worry about Arab dignity when they've been working steadily toward your destruction.
And while I don't care for the current Israeli government, or for the settlements, I have no desire to help the Arabs - whether they be Palestinians or ISIS - achieve their ultimate goal.
114
"We"?
Just because you win a war doesn't mean that you get to snatch the other guy's land.
According to that way of thinking, Italy, Germany and Japan would be American states.
According to that way of thinking, Italy, Germany and Japan would be American states.
1
Israel gave Egypt back the Sinai peninsula (which would have doubled the size of Israel had Israel kept the land).
Britain, on the other hand, has not given the Malvinas islands back to Argentina, the US has not given back part of its southern border to Mexico (after the Mexican American War) and France has not given back parts of Germany after WWII.
Britain, on the other hand, has not given the Malvinas islands back to Argentina, the US has not given back part of its southern border to Mexico (after the Mexican American War) and France has not given back parts of Germany after WWII.
6
The folioing is after the bombing of Gaza by former President Jimmy Carter
Former President Jimmy Carter once again is getting way out in front of the U.S. government on the Middle East, co-authoring an op-ed in which he calls for Washington to recognize designated terror group Hamas as a legitimate "political actor" -- while blasting Israel for its military campaign in the Gaza Strip.
The scathing column on ForeignPolicy.com was written by Carter and Ireland's former president Mary Robinson.
The article called the current conflict a "humanitarian catastrophe," and while acknowledging Hamas' "indiscriminate targeting" of Israelis, focused its criticism on Israel.
"There is no humane or legal justification for the way the Israeli Defense Forces are conducting this war," they wrote. "Israeli bombs, missiles, and artillery have pulverized large parts of Gaza, including thousands of homes, schools, and hospitals."
In my opinion both sides need to reach a diplomatic agreement giving the Palestinians their own state , land, and reparations , and the Palestinians need to recognize Israel's right to exist. I predict that civilian unrest will spread globally with attacks against innocent Jewish people by Muslims that feel it is necessary to side with the Palestinians in a violent manner. Diplomacy is needed and Israel needs to treat the Palestinians in a fair and equitable manner. Takes a lot for an individual with a knife to attack men with machine guns.
Former President Jimmy Carter once again is getting way out in front of the U.S. government on the Middle East, co-authoring an op-ed in which he calls for Washington to recognize designated terror group Hamas as a legitimate "political actor" -- while blasting Israel for its military campaign in the Gaza Strip.
The scathing column on ForeignPolicy.com was written by Carter and Ireland's former president Mary Robinson.
The article called the current conflict a "humanitarian catastrophe," and while acknowledging Hamas' "indiscriminate targeting" of Israelis, focused its criticism on Israel.
"There is no humane or legal justification for the way the Israeli Defense Forces are conducting this war," they wrote. "Israeli bombs, missiles, and artillery have pulverized large parts of Gaza, including thousands of homes, schools, and hospitals."
In my opinion both sides need to reach a diplomatic agreement giving the Palestinians their own state , land, and reparations , and the Palestinians need to recognize Israel's right to exist. I predict that civilian unrest will spread globally with attacks against innocent Jewish people by Muslims that feel it is necessary to side with the Palestinians in a violent manner. Diplomacy is needed and Israel needs to treat the Palestinians in a fair and equitable manner. Takes a lot for an individual with a knife to attack men with machine guns.
14
Ireland, now that's a peaceful corner of the world.
It's odd to characterize Israel's actions as "collective punishment" when, according to the poll reported in this article, 61% of Palestinians living in Jerusalem - a substantial majority - support armed struggle against Israel. If they don't want to be treated as a hostile population, they should collectively end the relentless incitement to violence, and oppose it rather than support it by majority.
63
same rhetoric justifies random rocket attacks on israelis. obviously almost 100% of Israelis support armed struggle against Palestinians.
Your "argument" is a false one using bad reasoning.
If one is honest and decent then one does not punish people who are related to the person who committed a crime. This has been a well understood part of western thinking for many centuries. Not only is it unfair and useless as a deterrent, it is guaranteed to give anyone who already resents that authority reason to act on that resentment and often it turns people who were ambivalent or ambiguous about the Status Quo into enemies.
Knowing that, do you care to hazard a guess as to why Israel does it anyway?
If one is honest and decent then one does not punish people who are related to the person who committed a crime. This has been a well understood part of western thinking for many centuries. Not only is it unfair and useless as a deterrent, it is guaranteed to give anyone who already resents that authority reason to act on that resentment and often it turns people who were ambivalent or ambiguous about the Status Quo into enemies.
Knowing that, do you care to hazard a guess as to why Israel does it anyway?
The Israeli State owes it to its citizens to give them security. Playing with the frustration of Palestinians, developing more settlements and not helping in the emergence of a real Palestinian State, is producing quite the opposite. It's so sad to look at the state of Israeli Palestinian relations twenty years after Rabin's assassination by an Israeli fanatic. Fanaticism has taken hold of both sides and is winning. When is a Mandela going to rise among the Palestinians? When is another Rabin going to rise among the Israeli? Meanwhile, as an American tax payer I resent having my money sent to Israel. It should be tied to working on the peace process and should certainly not finance settlements. The Obama administration has fared very poorly in the Middle East.
29
I resent my tax payer do,Lars going to Palestinians who use cement to build under ground tunnels instead of schools and hide weapons in playgrounds and hospitals. I resent my tax payer dollars supporting Palestinians who advocate women wear burkas
6
@Bartleby33. Every U.S. administration has fared poorly in the Middle East. We keep pretending that we're gaining momentum in the pursuit of a Two State solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, but if we don't know in our hearts by now that we're being played, than we're as stupid as we look to the rest of the world. The unstoppable march of Israeli settlements in the West Bank make a just solution impossible. The Israelis have a strong "third column" in the U.S. led by AIPAC that believes Israel can do no wrong. Until we call them on it and become the "honest brokers" we claim to be but aren't, they'll just keep playing us, accepting our money and military hardware, and keep expanding until there's no possibility of a Palestinian state. How many infitadas does it take?
I resent my billions of tax dollars going to a country for military and economic aid, who interferes in my country's policies, disrespects my President, mowing down an entire people, puts people into ghetto like situations,totally dehumanizing them and stealing land!
Had the Israeli Arabs and the surrounding half dozen nations been victorious in any of the half dozen wars of annihilation against the modern State of Israel since the 1940's or in the dozens of lesser skirmishes against Israel during the last 75 years, we wouldn't be having this discussion.
Jerusalem would be back under Jordanian rule, with no Jews allowed. Gaza would belong to Egypt again, and the Golan would belong to Mr. Assad.
Of course, the Jews, always Zionistic, would again be wandering and wondering when they could return to their ancestral homeland. And the world would not be a better place.
Jerusalem would be back under Jordanian rule, with no Jews allowed. Gaza would belong to Egypt again, and the Golan would belong to Mr. Assad.
Of course, the Jews, always Zionistic, would again be wandering and wondering when they could return to their ancestral homeland. And the world would not be a better place.
23
The French and the Germans once hated each other as much as the Palestinians vow to destroy Israel and Israel defends itself.
The Palestinians were given a state in 1947 and instead they went to war four times to destroy Israel and lost.
The Palestinians are led by murderous kloptocracys. Yassar Arafat sople billions from his own people while parading around in that goofy head scarf which did not represent the magnitude of his thievery.
Hezbollah and the PLO take the international aid and build and launch rockets randomly into cities.
The poor Palestinians have miserable leaders.
So did Germany. When, after WW2 Hitler was removed and Germany became a democracy western europe was transformed into a zone of peace with no wars in 70 years.
The Palestinians could chose democratic leaders and all would change. The world should help them and all would change.
Instead they vow to destroy Israel.
The Palestinians were given a state in 1947 and instead they went to war four times to destroy Israel and lost.
The Palestinians are led by murderous kloptocracys. Yassar Arafat sople billions from his own people while parading around in that goofy head scarf which did not represent the magnitude of his thievery.
Hezbollah and the PLO take the international aid and build and launch rockets randomly into cities.
The poor Palestinians have miserable leaders.
So did Germany. When, after WW2 Hitler was removed and Germany became a democracy western europe was transformed into a zone of peace with no wars in 70 years.
The Palestinians could chose democratic leaders and all would change. The world should help them and all would change.
Instead they vow to destroy Israel.
28
"The French and the Germans once hated each other"
I do not think they stopped doing that.
I do not think they stopped doing that.
In the 1980s, Jerusalem was the center of Palestinian intellectual life. The Hakawati theatre started by Palestinians was producing first-rate plays, social and political activities were sponsored by all political groups in Jerusalem, and all women's groups had branches there. Israel decided that Jerusalem belongs only to Israel, then prevented all activities by Palestinians there. It also prevented people from the West Bank from going to Jerusalem without a permit, which was rarely given. And slowly, East Arab Jerusalem started to die. I remember I was in a shared taxi going from Ramallah to Jerusalem and being so ashamed that I, with an American passport, was allowed to proceed to Jerusalem, while Palestinians born in Jerusalem (but lived in Ramallah because there were no houses they could afford) were ordered to leave that shared taxi. I totally understand Palestinian frustration and anger. The Israeli occupation has to end.
41
The decline of Jerusalem as "the center of Palestinian intellectual life" coincides with, and do doubt resulted from, the start of the first Intifada and the resulting security clamp-down by Israel.
1
In 1928, Jerusalem Jews had placed a couple of chairs to serve the elderly, next to the Western Wall, and positioned a small wooden wall to allow for woman to pray. The grand mufti, Haj Amin Al Hussaini started incitement, accusing that Jews want to destroy the mosque. He distributed fake photos showing the Dome with damage claimed to be done by Jews. This incitement went unabated, and in 1929 133 Jews were murdered and the old Jewish community in Hebron was destroyed. 69 were slaughtered, and the baker was shoved alive into the bread oven. Only blind people will not see the parallels. Indeed, Abbas proudly says that the mufti is his role mufti...
Palestinians now ask UNESCO to declare that the Western Wall is part of The mosque, adding a level of lies, deception and incitement we have never seen before. This mosque which has become a storage for pipe bombs and rocks might no longer be considered a place of worship according to international law, but the liberal media, which systematically distorts the reality does not really care.
Israel had offered citizenship to East Jerusalem Arabs, and they refused. Since 1948, the Palestinians and their Arab supporters have not agreed to recognize that the Jewish people has the natural and fundamental right for self determination. Without this recognition, there will be no progress and no peace. The despair of the Arab population in Jerusalem and elsewhere can change to hope overnight. They just need to seek real peace.
Palestinians now ask UNESCO to declare that the Western Wall is part of The mosque, adding a level of lies, deception and incitement we have never seen before. This mosque which has become a storage for pipe bombs and rocks might no longer be considered a place of worship according to international law, but the liberal media, which systematically distorts the reality does not really care.
Israel had offered citizenship to East Jerusalem Arabs, and they refused. Since 1948, the Palestinians and their Arab supporters have not agreed to recognize that the Jewish people has the natural and fundamental right for self determination. Without this recognition, there will be no progress and no peace. The despair of the Arab population in Jerusalem and elsewhere can change to hope overnight. They just need to seek real peace.
30
Let's face it, you can pick any side in this dispute and point out who's wrong and who's right, going back and forth until you are crazy. The fact of the matter is that until Israel stops creating new settlements and stops keeping the Palestinians down, there will never be any chance of peace. Of course I don't believe there will ever be peace there or anywhere in the Middle East.
24
Well Jimmy Carter had it quite right several years ago when he described the apartheid system in Israel. Of course it is baked in the cake; any country that is based on a given religion. be it Muslim, Buddhist, Christian, Hindu or of course Jewish is bound to discriminate against non-members of the designated religion.
And unfortunately, in the case of Israel, the guardians of the religion are extremest ultra orthodox Jews. As a consequence any pretense of democracy is fundamentally flawed.
The sooner that we recognize this relativity the better; not that we will ever change it, but at least we can stop referring to Israel as a democracy which it obviously isn't and can never be.
And unfortunately, in the case of Israel, the guardians of the religion are extremest ultra orthodox Jews. As a consequence any pretense of democracy is fundamentally flawed.
The sooner that we recognize this relativity the better; not that we will ever change it, but at least we can stop referring to Israel as a democracy which it obviously isn't and can never be.
80
What is also something that we should recognize: As the sons of Abraham and therefore, all Semitics, anti-Semitism should also mean anti-Semitic since all Semites are either Jews or Arabs.
Many democracies have official state religions including Norway, Iceland and Denmark. Britain goes so far as to legally require their head of state to be Anglican Christian.
Israel does not have a state religion and allows its leaders to be any religion. Israel is similar to Sweden (another country without an official state religion) that gives the Lutheran church certain privileges among Lutheran Swedes.
Israel does not have a state religion and allows its leaders to be any religion. Israel is similar to Sweden (another country without an official state religion) that gives the Lutheran church certain privileges among Lutheran Swedes.
4
Israel is a parliamentary democracy with separation of legislative, executive, and judicial powers by law. While Israel does not have a written constitution, the Declaration of Establishment (1948), the Basic Laws of Israel enacted by the Knesset beginning in 1958, the Nationality Law (1952), and the Law of Return (1950) have constitutional law status. There is no 'governmental religion', contrary to the belief of many (misinformed) people who persist in calling it a "Jewish state".
1
Since John Kerry the Sec. of State has no legs to stand on since the sell out of Iran deal, why doesn't Obama himself goes to this region and see what he can do there for his legacy before it is too late for him to register a single achievement of his Presidency?
2
Jody, I must say that I am surprised at your reporting as for the first time I have seen a piece by you that actually uses sentences describing the reason for what is taking place in the Holy lands. I guess even you are getting effected by the magnitude of Israeli intransigence and lies about the Palestinian suffering.
Regardless how we want to put it, there is no two State solution anymore. The reality on the ground created by the Israelis now make it impossible to create two contiguous viable independent States for the Israelis and the Palestinians. For the two States the price of dislocation maybe too high for the State of Israel to bear, resulting in a Jewish ISIS like monster to appear on the scene. (Settler’s movement may be a precursor to it)
We need to start thinking outside the box for solutions. A single State with Jeffersonian Democratic values, where everyone lives with equal rights and responsibilities. This is currently not acceptable to many Jewish inhabitants of the area. A federated government of many States, such as Gaza, Jerusalem, West Bank, Israel, Jordan Valley etc. with each governorate having total freedom to practice their faith, have their own administrative laws etc. The Federation would be responsible for Defense, Foreign Policy, Treasury, and International Commerce.
I am glad for your piece and maybe it is just the beginning, please continue to point out the Palestinian perspective and you have a long way to go.
Good luck.
Regardless how we want to put it, there is no two State solution anymore. The reality on the ground created by the Israelis now make it impossible to create two contiguous viable independent States for the Israelis and the Palestinians. For the two States the price of dislocation maybe too high for the State of Israel to bear, resulting in a Jewish ISIS like monster to appear on the scene. (Settler’s movement may be a precursor to it)
We need to start thinking outside the box for solutions. A single State with Jeffersonian Democratic values, where everyone lives with equal rights and responsibilities. This is currently not acceptable to many Jewish inhabitants of the area. A federated government of many States, such as Gaza, Jerusalem, West Bank, Israel, Jordan Valley etc. with each governorate having total freedom to practice their faith, have their own administrative laws etc. The Federation would be responsible for Defense, Foreign Policy, Treasury, and International Commerce.
I am glad for your piece and maybe it is just the beginning, please continue to point out the Palestinian perspective and you have a long way to go.
Good luck.
21
Why is it that the NYT gets it wrong all the time ? This article mentions the killing of Muhammad Abu Kdeir by Israeli extremists, which was widely condemned by the Israeli government as well as by all but a few Israelis. The article does not mention that this horrible killing came after Eyal Yifrach, 19, Gilad Shaar, 16, and Naftali Fraenkel, 1 from Jordan in 19676 were killed by Arab extremists a few days earlier. The article wants to put context but chooses the context of its liking. The same with the reference to Israel taking control of Jerusalem, but "forgets" to mention that Jordan's occupation of Jerusalem was illegal in international terms, as Jerusalem was to be an open city, under control of the United Nations, and accessible to all, including Jews. Jordan however did not allow Jews to pray at their holy Temple Mount. The Jerusalem Arabs receive more respect and benefits from Israel than what any non-Muslim minority receives in any Arab country.
67
The killing of the three Israeli kids does not in any what justify the slaughter of the Arab boy.
Let me share some perspective as a left-wing Israeli and former Jerusalem resident.
I would like to just add this one tidbit of information.
The Arab neighborhoods in East Jerusalem indeed have been getting worse public services than other neighborhoods, and that's a valid cause for resentment. It should be fair to point out, though, that the residents of East Jerusalem are not only entitled to get full Israeli citizenship (which they refuse to take), but even without citizenship, are entitled to vote for mayor and city council. Yet, for decades, they've been consistently boycotting the municipal elections. Had they voted, their representatives would control at least 1/3 of the seats, and with the city already heavily divided along other lines, that would give them a huge influence over city matters.
So with all due respect to their legitimate grievances, I would respectfully suggest that before resorting to violence, maybe, just maybe, they should try to actually try voting for once.
I would like to just add this one tidbit of information.
The Arab neighborhoods in East Jerusalem indeed have been getting worse public services than other neighborhoods, and that's a valid cause for resentment. It should be fair to point out, though, that the residents of East Jerusalem are not only entitled to get full Israeli citizenship (which they refuse to take), but even without citizenship, are entitled to vote for mayor and city council. Yet, for decades, they've been consistently boycotting the municipal elections. Had they voted, their representatives would control at least 1/3 of the seats, and with the city already heavily divided along other lines, that would give them a huge influence over city matters.
So with all due respect to their legitimate grievances, I would respectfully suggest that before resorting to violence, maybe, just maybe, they should try to actually try voting for once.
333
Here's another tidbit of information: Jerusalem is not in Israel. Neither East nor West. If you dispute this, please point to any legal document that shows the legal transfer of Jerusalem to Israeli sovereignty.
So why should Arabs of East Jerusalem take Israeli citizenship?
So why should Arabs of East Jerusalem take Israeli citizenship?
4
Incognito
For the Palestinians of East Jerusalem to become Israeli citizens and start voting in Israel would mean their acceptance of Israel's (illegal) annexation........ not going to happen!
For the Palestinians of East Jerusalem to become Israeli citizens and start voting in Israel would mean their acceptance of Israel's (illegal) annexation........ not going to happen!
4
Clearly you do not understand non-violent protest, yet you turn around and ask for "why not that" when there is an attack. Clearly, the Palestinian people choose both, thanks to the Israeli government's fair and just treatment of the people under their control, after a successful allies-sanctioned colonization of their homes.
This is the UN's fault. This is the unintended consequence of giving Jews a state largely at Palestinian expense to make recompense for what the Germans did. Can you blame the Palestinians for being ticked-off?
You know what you get when you take peoples' land for no money? 67 years of war.
If the intransigent parties who apparently think that the other side will just disappear cannot resolve this between one another the UN, the responsible party, should fix this by IMPOSING reasonable borders based upon where people actually live today, not in 1948, 1967, or 2,000 years ago, whether the parties like it or not. Enforce those borders with an armed multi-national force and economic sanctions.
While they're at it, invoke the legal Doctrine of Eminent Domain and award Just Compensation to everyone, Jews included, who lost property as a result of the UN's creation of Israel. Aggrieved people show up at a UN compensation office, present their claims, sign Releases, and walk away with a check. That's fair.
Settlers, if they legally acquired their properties, get to stay or leave, their choice. If they stay they will be Palestinians. Jewish Palestinians who will get to enjoy all of the rights and obligations conferred upon all citizens of the State of Palestine. Israel has Arabs. Palestine can have Jews. It's the same thing.
Let's try something new for a change. If it doesn't work they can go back to war for another 67 years.
You know what you get when you take peoples' land for no money? 67 years of war.
If the intransigent parties who apparently think that the other side will just disappear cannot resolve this between one another the UN, the responsible party, should fix this by IMPOSING reasonable borders based upon where people actually live today, not in 1948, 1967, or 2,000 years ago, whether the parties like it or not. Enforce those borders with an armed multi-national force and economic sanctions.
While they're at it, invoke the legal Doctrine of Eminent Domain and award Just Compensation to everyone, Jews included, who lost property as a result of the UN's creation of Israel. Aggrieved people show up at a UN compensation office, present their claims, sign Releases, and walk away with a check. That's fair.
Settlers, if they legally acquired their properties, get to stay or leave, their choice. If they stay they will be Palestinians. Jewish Palestinians who will get to enjoy all of the rights and obligations conferred upon all citizens of the State of Palestine. Israel has Arabs. Palestine can have Jews. It's the same thing.
Let's try something new for a change. If it doesn't work they can go back to war for another 67 years.
19
The something new that commentators should try is to learn the history before offering advice. The UN did not create Israel. Israel was the intended result of the League of Nations Mandate for Palestine established in 1922 as part of the post-WWI treaty settlement of the lost lands of the defeated Ottoman Empire. What the UN offered was a partition in which the Jews were asked to settle for a state on about 10% of the lands originally allotted in 1922. They agreed because they actually wanted a state (unlike the Palestinians for whom 95+% is not enough) and the Arabs refused, attacked and lost. The issue today is the same as in 1948 and for centuries before: Arab rejection of the very thought that their most despised minority group (the Jews) had the temerity to re-establish their sovereignty in a part of their historical homeland that the Arabs had conquered in the 7th century. Where the borders may be drawn is entirely beside the point to them. All you need to do is listen to what the PA and Hamas tell and teach their own people or, failing that, just look at their logo of Palestine. See anything missing? Yeah, that would be Israel, all of it.
6
Hmm? I always thought it was a result of the Arabs conquering someone else's historic homeland in the 7th Century, planting a mosque on top of someone else's holiest religions site, and then promoting a racist supremacist idea that once Islam plants its flag anywhere, there is no longer any discussion even if the Arabs have 22 nations of their own already (at the expense not only of the Jews, but also the Berbers and the Kurds). And add the totally unlikely event of the original people of that land starting to return long before WWII, having given up on European hatred AND (you managed to forget) the 800,000 Jews who returned fleeing persecution in Arab countries -- as many if not more than the number of Palestinian Muslims who fled a war in 1948 their Arab "brothers" started.
5
You probably never read a scholarly history book about this region. Jews always lived in "Palestine" even before it was so named by the Romans. They ARE the indigenous people of this story. It was only with the Muslim invasions of the 7th century, and later the 11th and 12th centuries, that the ancestors of present-days "Palestinians" arrived to the region. Since then there were many transitions of power in the region but never an Arab or Palestinian state. In fact, the "Palestinian people" are just those Arabs who lived in this region for many generations, nothing more. In cultural terms they are no different than the Jordanian or Syrians). So when the Jews aspired after about 2000 years to resettle their homeland, which was at the time under Turkey's control, (where no "Palestinian" demanded independence), there was no question of the UN involvement since there was no UN at the time. Only during the British mandate the issue of the conflict between Jews and Arabs came to the fore and so two independent committees suggested to divide the land between Jews and Arabs (the first proposal, by the Peel committee, gave Jews about 25% only of Palestine, but the Arabs wanted it all since they think of this place as sacred to Islam). So the Arabs rejected both suggestions and do so until today. Now why would Jews want to live in a Palestinian state which would hardly give them any protection from the people who really don't want them to live in this region?
4
As the article indicates, Palestinians are being taught to kill Jews and destroy Israel. That is the core of the problem. There is no peace because the Palestinians do not want peace: they want destruction. They decline citizenship -- which the Israelis offer them -- because they refuse to join with Israelis in any civic project. No wonder the Israelis are resentful. It is amazing that Israel funds Arab services as much as they do. If the Palestinians wanted peace on any reasonable basis, there would be peace tomorrow. Until then, the Israelis are behaving as well as any human being could behave.
65
Taking other people's land brings conflict not peace.
The uptick in aggression did not start from the murder of Muhammad Abu Khdeir on July 2014. It started with the kidnap and murder of the three Israeli boys, Naftali Fraenkel, Gilad Shaer & Eyal Yifrah by Palestinians.
18
The Temple Mount holds is the key to deep reconciliation between Moslems and Jews. According to Islamic theology, Muhammad's soul ascended from there to Heaven. Why from there? Because it was considered holy, precisely since it was the site of the Jewish Temple. Al Aqsa was built by the Ommeyads in reverence to that fact and not as an insult to the Jews. Islam is a cultural interpretation and dissemination of the fundamental Hebrew teachings (as is Christianity). The Koran explicitly states that the Land of Israel has been set aside by Allah for the Jews and that whoever does not accept that is not a Muslim (quite a ‘Zionist’ statement!) If Jewish and Moslem religious authorities would convene and settle this question, it would go a long way towards appeasing these artificial tensions.
3
The root of ALL trouble in the muslim world including middle east is the creation of Israel on Palestinian land. Hitler was responsible for the murder of 6 million jews, but for his sins muslims and Palestinians were punished. Their lands were appropriated, they were deported and murdered for no fault of theirs. Maybe all these jews should go back to Germany and other parts of Europe. They could settle in Australia or even in US where their is enough land.Why occupy some body elses land on the basis of imaginary myths, stories and religious texts. There will be no peace between the Jews of Israel and the muslim world, unless and until Palestinians get their land back. And in this the whole muslim ummah is with them.
11
All the trouble in the Muslim & Arab world caused by the Jews? That's absurd on the face of it, and it is a poor excuse for the violence and dysfunction that we see.
Somebody else's land? Jews have lived in the area for millenia, and were granted a sliver in a Stateless area. They were attacked and the rest has been defense, including the wall, the settlements and the keeping the land won from genocidal hoards.
Somebody else's land? Jews have lived in the area for millenia, and were granted a sliver in a Stateless area. They were attacked and the rest has been defense, including the wall, the settlements and the keeping the land won from genocidal hoards.
9
So - your solution is to eliminate the land of Israel. As long as that is the Arab attitude toward the problem, how can peace have a chance?
4
No,a Jew should be able to live anywhere. I live in America. My neighborhood turned asian. I accept it. I don't walk around with a knife trying to murder Asians. They have the same rights as I do
7
I am not sure what the solution is. I am not sure how they will move forward. I do know that one of the most moving experiences of my life was visiting the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem. Another was of walking through the checkpoint, the high walls topped with razor wire and the walk through the long snaking walkway that was covered with what looked to be industrial strength mesh (?) The thought occurred to me that it was a fire hazard. I remember walking through that line and without realizing it my eyes welled up with tears though I am not sure why exactly. I also remember seeing the really young looking Israeli soldiers, many of the young men with no hint of stubble on the faces, armed with lethal M-15s (?). How worried their parents must have been.
It is a cycle and I am not sure how to break it. I do remember being told by my Jewish/Israeli guide (who could not come inside with us) that many residents had to go through that checkpoint on a daily basis to get to work (if there was any to be had) and back. And since it is done single file (for safety reasons) at rush hour it can take upwards of 1.5 hours each way.
I cannot presume to truly know how the Jewish people and the Muslims feel. On the one hand, having to live constantly with the fear of attacks and on the other hand having to live with a less than ideal economic situation. It is tragic that these 2 people who have more in common than they don't cannot seem to see eye to eye.
It is a cycle and I am not sure how to break it. I do remember being told by my Jewish/Israeli guide (who could not come inside with us) that many residents had to go through that checkpoint on a daily basis to get to work (if there was any to be had) and back. And since it is done single file (for safety reasons) at rush hour it can take upwards of 1.5 hours each way.
I cannot presume to truly know how the Jewish people and the Muslims feel. On the one hand, having to live constantly with the fear of attacks and on the other hand having to live with a less than ideal economic situation. It is tragic that these 2 people who have more in common than they don't cannot seem to see eye to eye.
5
You were the most rational opinion voiced- thank you
Casting the situation of East Jerusalem’s Palestinian inhabitants into a narrative of “discrimination” and “neglect” does not come close to explaining the complexity of the situation or the true core of Palestinian sentiment.
The implicit analogy that all but leaps from the article is to U.S. discrimination against African Americans in the days of segregation.
Accepting the analogy on its own terms it is then misleading to speak of Israel Jews’ “ vision of a united Jerusalem.” That sounds hopeful and idealistic; but a fair and consistent adherence to the analogy being drawn would be to Southerners’ “vision of a united White Washington.”
Perhaps that will illustrate why the divisive and contentious issues are deeper than entitlements to municipal services.
The implicit analogy that all but leaps from the article is to U.S. discrimination against African Americans in the days of segregation.
Accepting the analogy on its own terms it is then misleading to speak of Israel Jews’ “ vision of a united Jerusalem.” That sounds hopeful and idealistic; but a fair and consistent adherence to the analogy being drawn would be to Southerners’ “vision of a united White Washington.”
Perhaps that will illustrate why the divisive and contentious issues are deeper than entitlements to municipal services.
6
Would someone please explain to me what right Israelis have to build settlements outside of their borders? Please don't quote any scripture.
173
Israel was attacked by Arabs intent on destroying the country and killing as many Jews as possible. The Old City and lands East were won in that conflict. I assure you if the Jordanians won the lands to the West they would not have given it back. Why should Israel give it back at all, let alone without a guarantee of peace which clearly cannot be made.
7
If you engage in wars and terrors attacks against your neighbors for 67 years and keep losing them, and then tell the world that you intend to keep on fighting your neighbor, eventually your neighbor is bound to get tired and start whittling you down.
See. No scripture.
See. No scripture.
9
DB, the League of Nations, in 1922, voted to invite the Jews to re-establish their national home in Palestine, and encouraged close settlement of the land.
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/palmanda.asp
The Green Line is the 1949 Armistice Line. It was never fixed as an international border.
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/palmanda.asp
The Green Line is the 1949 Armistice Line. It was never fixed as an international border.
9
Palestinians didn't seethe in 1970 when during the Jordanian Civil War (Black September), the Kingdom of Jordan slaughtered 10,000-40,000 Palestinians, nor did they seethe when Kuwait expelled 200,000 Palestinians, they don't seethe in the refugees camps Lebanon, nor as victims in the camps during the current Syrian Civil War . No Arab government would tolerate their terrorism.
33
Netanyahu admitted, while campaigning this year, that his support of East Jerusalem settlements was politically strategic and in keeping with his other admitted goal of no Palestinian state on his watch (evident as these were). How could East Jerusalem's Arabs feel less than rage when being treated like pawns by the Prime Minister?
13
A pox on both their houses. Neither the Palestinians nor the Israelis are interested in living together in peace. Both sides are determined to expel the other from their respective territories. Neither side are worth the time of the rest of the world.
4
Unfortunately the article includes statements about Palestinians being taught that Jews are the enemy but no statements about the incredibly strong racism of Jews against Palestinians. Read the book Goliath if you want a little reality check.
17
Judi R., Kudos. This is the best analysis I have seen from your pen. It seems aimed at understanding rather than justifying.
4
I'm sure the frustrations of the Jerusalem Palestinians are real, but their latest solution - attacking innocent people with knives and driving cars into crowds - leaves little room for sympathy.
When I read that someone wonderful guy "condemns the violence but...," I stop reading right there. There is no "but..." to terrorism.
When I read that someone wonderful guy "condemns the violence but...," I stop reading right there. There is no "but..." to terrorism.
21
What happens if a Jewish gas technician, phone repairman, representative of the electric company tries to do their job in most Arab neighborhoods of East Jerusalem? The chances are that they will not make it out alive. They must often be accompanied by police and that of course just causes more problems.
Yet, East Jerusalem Arabs are free to travel at will through Jerusalem and many work in Jewish areas on a daily basis and have done so for years.
Neglect? What happens to the light rail when it passes through Shuafat? How many times have the stations been torched and the light rail vandalized and this light rail connects all parts of the city.
It was not always like that. Israelis would use Palestinian garages in Wadi Joz and go to restaurants in East Jerusalem. Today that would be suicide. Ms. Rudoren seems to live in another planet if she thinks that Israelis flock to Beit Hanina for hummus. A major municipal road now passes through Beit Hanina and it is a good as place as any to take a rock when driving through.
So before they seethe at their "better-off" Jewish neighbors, residents of East Jerusalem might ask why municipal workers have to risk their lives to provide services.
Yet, East Jerusalem Arabs are free to travel at will through Jerusalem and many work in Jewish areas on a daily basis and have done so for years.
Neglect? What happens to the light rail when it passes through Shuafat? How many times have the stations been torched and the light rail vandalized and this light rail connects all parts of the city.
It was not always like that. Israelis would use Palestinian garages in Wadi Joz and go to restaurants in East Jerusalem. Today that would be suicide. Ms. Rudoren seems to live in another planet if she thinks that Israelis flock to Beit Hanina for hummus. A major municipal road now passes through Beit Hanina and it is a good as place as any to take a rock when driving through.
So before they seethe at their "better-off" Jewish neighbors, residents of East Jerusalem might ask why municipal workers have to risk their lives to provide services.
31
There is no question that Israel has become a profound and ugly apartheid state. Palestinians are subject to brutality, discrimination and violence at all times and in all places. A good experiment would be this: provide a map showing incidents of Jewish settler violence against Palestinians over just the past year and put up a graphic with the details and range. What would that show? Or put up another graphic detailing the number of Palestinians beaten or shot by the border police, or the military. Sympathy for Israelis in this case is sadly and disturbingly misplaced. As heart-rending as the attacks on innocent Jewish Israelis may be, there are far more attacks on innocent Palestinians by Israeli forces, civilian and military. The Israeli government has been backing Palestinians into a smaller and smaller corner for decades while subjecting them to more and more discrimination and deprivation. It has created a world in which young Palestinians have no hope for the future and are constantly subject to humiliation. The parallel to African Americans living in ghettoes or native Americans relegated to reservations is unavoidable. In this pressure cooker, the turn to radicalism and violence is not surprising. People have been warning for decades that Israel cannot keep doing what it is doing. Why are we surprised at all when, from time to time, the prisoners explode in a paroxysm of rage and hate until they are beaten down and stepped on again?
46
Tell us how you feel about the Israeli Arabs, those that are part of Knesset? Is that apartheid too?
Yes, the settlers burn their farms as well, the IDF does nothing but watch.For hundreds of years, people farmed the land and harvested Olives. Israel has not only taken most of their land but has mostly destroyed a way of life for The Palestinians.
According to the NY Times own statistics:
Israelis killed in October: 7
Palestinians killed in October: 37
In a recent UN report: In one week, ending Oct. 5, Israeli security forces injured 794 Palestinians, while Palestinians injured a total of 7 Israelis. This is an injury ratio of more than 100 to one, a shocking disparity. http://www.ochaopt.org/poc29september-5october-2015.aspx
The Times fails to tell the context of the situation in Israel/Palestine, ignoring the ugly realities of Israeli Control and the enormous disparity in power between Israelis and Palestinians. Israel is a nuclear power with immense weaponry and a standing army. Palestine has no army and not a single tank or aircraft, and its unarmed populace has suffered appallingly under Israeli control. Palestinians aren't even considered second-class citizens, and their land continues to be colonized by Israel, and their freedom of movement restricted by endless checkpoints. The numbers of Palestinians displaced from their land continues to rise unabated, in what amounts to an unspoken ethnic cleansing.
Perhaps the Times should read Amnesty International's recent report: "No justification for deliberate attacks on civilians, unlawful killings by Israeli forces, or collective punishment of Palestinians."
Israelis killed in October: 7
Palestinians killed in October: 37
In a recent UN report: In one week, ending Oct. 5, Israeli security forces injured 794 Palestinians, while Palestinians injured a total of 7 Israelis. This is an injury ratio of more than 100 to one, a shocking disparity. http://www.ochaopt.org/poc29september-5october-2015.aspx
The Times fails to tell the context of the situation in Israel/Palestine, ignoring the ugly realities of Israeli Control and the enormous disparity in power between Israelis and Palestinians. Israel is a nuclear power with immense weaponry and a standing army. Palestine has no army and not a single tank or aircraft, and its unarmed populace has suffered appallingly under Israeli control. Palestinians aren't even considered second-class citizens, and their land continues to be colonized by Israel, and their freedom of movement restricted by endless checkpoints. The numbers of Palestinians displaced from their land continues to rise unabated, in what amounts to an unspoken ethnic cleansing.
Perhaps the Times should read Amnesty International's recent report: "No justification for deliberate attacks on civilians, unlawful killings by Israeli forces, or collective punishment of Palestinians."
61
So the side that kills the most is guilty? Nonsense. Israelis have the right to be safe. If the terrorism stops, and real negotiations begin, there is hope. Oh, wait. Palestinian leaders have rejected negotiation every time the opportunity arose.
5
Do you know the statistics for Afghans killed vs Americans? Iraqis vs Americans? Do you know how "proportionality" is defined in law? Find out, then comment
1
And you also conveniently don't put things in context: None of the 37 Palestinians you mention were killed as innocent bystanders: they were engaged in knifings, firebomb throwing, illegal breach of the border fence between Gaza and Israel and attacking Israeli forces there to protect the border (and the ones breaching the border had a very good idea that if they didn't stop they would be fired at).
Beyond that, the incessant treating of the deaths in the conflict like a sports score/result shows the highest level of amorality: More died on my side, therefore my side is right, and it's acts are justified. No context, no understanding of what is going on. Just a tally. Shows how little regard you actually have for human life.
Beyond that, the incessant treating of the deaths in the conflict like a sports score/result shows the highest level of amorality: More died on my side, therefore my side is right, and it's acts are justified. No context, no understanding of what is going on. Just a tally. Shows how little regard you actually have for human life.
1
So, the checks and roadblocks are a result of violence and terrorism. That's easy to understand. The whole middle east is erupting with intolerance and hatred of "other". Sunni-Shia, Sunni-Jew, Sunni-Christian, Shia-Kurd, Sunni-Kurd, aggression continues. Awful
4
Israel as we know it today will cease to exist in 50 years. Maybe less. It's an unstainable model and the US should not be supporting it. We should be applying sanctions.
44
Cmon' Adolph proclaimed that about the Jews alongside the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem in the 1940's. What makes you so sure you know more than Adolph and the Grand Mufti?
5
It may take almost 100 years but it will happen. The U.s. will continue to fund Israel as a strategic "weapons platform" and "intelligence well" until the oil and gas run out later this century (or early next one). After that the Middle East will have limited strategic value, foreign aid and alliances will begin to dissolve, and all the parties will be left to their own devices. That reality coupled with both Arab and Haredi demography will radically change the population structure of Israel with huge implications for elections.
1
One of the problems of Palestinian leadership is that they all seem to model themselves after the Nazi-ally, the Grand Mufti.
This includes Arafat, who was his nephew, and all the imams who served at al-Aqsa mosque, calling for genocide of the Jews.
Israel is foolish to permit the Waqf to control al-Aqsa as that only enables these genocidal heirs of the Grand Mufti to spew their venom and to incite wars.
This includes Arafat, who was his nephew, and all the imams who served at al-Aqsa mosque, calling for genocide of the Jews.
Israel is foolish to permit the Waqf to control al-Aqsa as that only enables these genocidal heirs of the Grand Mufti to spew their venom and to incite wars.
4
"Palestinians are outraged that no such punishment was considered for the three Jewish men on trial for the murder of Muhammad Abu Khdeir last year. Nor were checkpoints established in their neighborhoods."
The difference is that Israel arrested the men and put them on trial. The PA promotes terror attacks and glorifies the murders as heroes and martyrs.
The reason there were no checkpoints in Jewish neighborhoods is because Israeli civilian attacks on Palestinians is rare. While Palestinian attacks on Israelis is commonplace.
The difference is that Israel arrested the men and put them on trial. The PA promotes terror attacks and glorifies the murders as heroes and martyrs.
The reason there were no checkpoints in Jewish neighborhoods is because Israeli civilian attacks on Palestinians is rare. While Palestinian attacks on Israelis is commonplace.
35
Really? Have you followed the news from the West Bank where settlers have attacked Palestinian shepherds? Bulldozed their homes? Chopped down ancient olive trees? These incidents are not "rare"; they are every day events. The Russian peasants were brought in by Israel with no place to put them, except on the West Bank. The "settlers" have now buried the West Bank with shacks, all of which need scarce water. Netanyahu knew what he was doing; he was creating a situation to ensure there would be no peace.
6
Vartek Vuld -- Israel has NOT put the murderers of Muhammad Abu Khdeir on trial. Yosef Haim Ben-David, the adult perpetrator, claimed he would seek an insanity defense, but in Nov. 2014, the Israeli court found him competent. Still no trial. It is not at all clear if the two juveniles also indicted are even in custody. Their families' homes have not been demolished, as would be the case with Palestinians. This crime occurred 15 MONTHS ago.
Page up to this summer -- the July firebombing in Duma that killed 18-month-old Ali Dawabsheh and his parents, leaving a second 4-year-old badly burned and an orphan. No one has been arrested for this crime, even though Israeli officials have claimed they know the perpetrators were Jewish terrorists and had suspects identified. Quite on contrast to the manhunt for Palestinian criminals.
Since the beginning of 2015 at least 120 settler attacks have been documented in West Bank. Statistics show that over 92.6% of Palestinian complaints lodged with Israeli security forces never led to charges being filed.
It isn't difficult to understand how Palestinians feel that will never see justice, even for the most heinous crimes against them.
Those attacks by settlers ARE civilian attacks and they are not "rare." They are commonplace.
Page up to this summer -- the July firebombing in Duma that killed 18-month-old Ali Dawabsheh and his parents, leaving a second 4-year-old badly burned and an orphan. No one has been arrested for this crime, even though Israeli officials have claimed they know the perpetrators were Jewish terrorists and had suspects identified. Quite on contrast to the manhunt for Palestinian criminals.
Since the beginning of 2015 at least 120 settler attacks have been documented in West Bank. Statistics show that over 92.6% of Palestinian complaints lodged with Israeli security forces never led to charges being filed.
It isn't difficult to understand how Palestinians feel that will never see justice, even for the most heinous crimes against them.
Those attacks by settlers ARE civilian attacks and they are not "rare." They are commonplace.
1
You are wrong. The colonists who live illegally on the West Bank regularly attack Palestinians
Finally!
Thank you, Ms. Rudoren, sincerely, for allowing we the readers of the NY Times to comment on the NY Times' hard-line, anti-Palestinian Zionist rhetoric.
1) Palestinians have the right to self-defense, as much as do Israelis.
2) East Jerusalem *is* the capital of any future Palestinian state. Israel *must* give up control of and withdraw from East Jerusalem.
3) Israeli "storm troopers" *must* cease their attacks on Palestinians in East Jerusalem and throughout the occupied territories. The seige of the "Warsaw Ghetto" in East Jerusalem must end.
4) If Israelis truly want peace, they must kick Netanyahu out and elect leaders who are serious about peace. Netanyahu's decision to deny Mahmoud Abbas political legitimacy, in order to drive Palestinians to Hamas, to justify Netanyahu's genocide in the occupied territories, must end.
If Israelis work with Abbas to create a Palestinian state, Abbas will then be able to defeat Hamas...in democratic election...in the Gaza Strip.
Thank you, Ms. Rudoren, sincerely, for allowing we the readers of the NY Times to comment on the NY Times' hard-line, anti-Palestinian Zionist rhetoric.
1) Palestinians have the right to self-defense, as much as do Israelis.
2) East Jerusalem *is* the capital of any future Palestinian state. Israel *must* give up control of and withdraw from East Jerusalem.
3) Israeli "storm troopers" *must* cease their attacks on Palestinians in East Jerusalem and throughout the occupied territories. The seige of the "Warsaw Ghetto" in East Jerusalem must end.
4) If Israelis truly want peace, they must kick Netanyahu out and elect leaders who are serious about peace. Netanyahu's decision to deny Mahmoud Abbas political legitimacy, in order to drive Palestinians to Hamas, to justify Netanyahu's genocide in the occupied territories, must end.
If Israelis work with Abbas to create a Palestinian state, Abbas will then be able to defeat Hamas...in democratic election...in the Gaza Strip.
14
6 wars of annihilation against the Jewish State, all won by Israel demonstrate your logic is at best skewed, at worst irrational.
4
Does anyone in the world believe that, "If Israelis work with Abbas to create a Palestinian state, Abbas will then be able to defeat Hamas...in democratic election...in the Gaza Strip?" I don't think that even Jon believes it. Maybe Condaleeza Rice believes it. There is zero evidence for it.
Here's where you're wrong on your claims.
1) They Palestinians have a right to self-defense, but not to making terrorist attacks on innocent civilians, which isn't a definition of that term.
2) It has never been made official that the Palestinians will be getting that portion of Jerusalem, and it most likely won't happen mainly because many of the holiest sites for the Jews are there, plus there is a chance that the Palestinians won't let them visit any of them just like how Jordan didn't.
3) Your comparison of the disputed territories to the Warsaw Ghetto is completely false and I suggest you actually look up how life was like there, plus the attacks from Hamas and other Palestinian extremists need to stop so the IDF won't have to do storm trooper movements to stop them.
4) It won't matter who the PM of Israel will be for this, because regardless of where they stand on the political spectrum, they have always both tried to call for peace, but it has been both Arafat and Abbas that refused to make any offers or deals on their end, which makes the need to defend themselves even more as long as it continues.
Unfortunately, Abbas has already been known for rejecting peace talks whether it was allowing for a plan back in 2008 with Olmert or even to a settlement freeze with Bibi, because no matter what, he refused to talk peace when the time was given for that, and has been very silent whenever Hamas makes attacks on innocent Israeli civilians.
1) They Palestinians have a right to self-defense, but not to making terrorist attacks on innocent civilians, which isn't a definition of that term.
2) It has never been made official that the Palestinians will be getting that portion of Jerusalem, and it most likely won't happen mainly because many of the holiest sites for the Jews are there, plus there is a chance that the Palestinians won't let them visit any of them just like how Jordan didn't.
3) Your comparison of the disputed territories to the Warsaw Ghetto is completely false and I suggest you actually look up how life was like there, plus the attacks from Hamas and other Palestinian extremists need to stop so the IDF won't have to do storm trooper movements to stop them.
4) It won't matter who the PM of Israel will be for this, because regardless of where they stand on the political spectrum, they have always both tried to call for peace, but it has been both Arafat and Abbas that refused to make any offers or deals on their end, which makes the need to defend themselves even more as long as it continues.
Unfortunately, Abbas has already been known for rejecting peace talks whether it was allowing for a plan back in 2008 with Olmert or even to a settlement freeze with Bibi, because no matter what, he refused to talk peace when the time was given for that, and has been very silent whenever Hamas makes attacks on innocent Israeli civilians.
5
As a college student, I visited Israel in 1969 for 10 weeks. We were guided by Israelis including tour guides, college professors and government representatives. Our group of American college students (Jewish and non-Jewish) participated in discussions about Israel's history and current events. Our guides and hosts had convincing and thoughtful answers to all of our questions except one...the Palestinian question. Almost every Israeli Jew we spoke with (including soldiers) just shook their heads with concern and embarrassment. A few were just angry but had no answers. To us American college students, the Palestinian issue was a serious problem in need of a solution. What was Israel going to do about it? In Meah Shearim, the feeling was, "It's the Arab countries' fault and problem and they needed to solve it."
Forty-six years later and nothing has changed. It is by all accounts much worse. Given the ethnocentric, extreme nationalism, should one expect anything else?
Forty-six years later and nothing has changed. It is by all accounts much worse. Given the ethnocentric, extreme nationalism, should one expect anything else?
22
In 1969 there were students all around the world calling for change. The Soviet Union and the Untied States were making their plans for the Middle East, and it was only two years after the 1967 war. The Israelis now only have the US left as an ally with respect to their treatment of the Palestinians, and they are slowly losing any credibility after the bombing of Gaza. Change will not come until the world gets so fed up with both sides that both sides are alienated.
At the time of your visit you were but a college student, and your lack of knowledge and history can be excused. But now? Israel had already suffered 3 major wars of Arab attempts to annihilate the Jews. To "drive them into the sea" was not about getting a nice swim. It seems there's still much that goes on with Palestinian intransigence that you have not assimilated.
Why trying to sympathize with the people stabbing innocents and children in the back? Even if there is grievance, this should be no cover for commiting stabbing attacks or car attacks against innocents in bus stops. This article seems to aim to provide this cover/justification, looking for a moral justification. There are other ways to protest in face of grievances. Killing/stabbing is not the civilised way to do it, and this article fails to highlight this problem. While the media is always tempted to take the side of the oppressed, we can't ignore the bestiality and senselessness of this random outbursts of rage, perpetrated by young, old, male and female palestinians.
31
Israel is s tiny tiny country. Jerusalem should be the Jewish capital and not split in two. The Jews and Palestinians should be separated for the good of both parties. Problem solved. Then over the course of the next 100 years neighborly relationships should gradually incouraged by the world community.
3
"“You get a generation that has grown up with the messages that a Jew is someone who comes to harm us, and endangers our religion”
Yes, an occupation tends to send that message.
One more time: Rob Baltusrol: "There's no crime like kidding yourself."
malvernthenovel.com
Yes, an occupation tends to send that message.
One more time: Rob Baltusrol: "There's no crime like kidding yourself."
malvernthenovel.com
14
I hope we stop supporting occupation by sending arms and money to Israel and spend American dollars in America where it is needed most.
35
Had the Israeli Arabs and the half dozen Arab nations surrounding Israel won any of their major wars of annihilation against the Jewish State of Israel since it's founding in the 1940's we wouldn't be discussing the division of Israel or Jerusalem. Jerusalem would still be a part of modern Jordan. Jordan would still be the caretaker of the Alaska Mosque but there wouldn't be any 'Pesky' Jews praying at the Wailing Wall under the Mosque or at other holy shrines throughout the ancestral homeland of the Jewish people such as Josephs Tomb which was recently torched by the Arabs.
Never agin means that the Jews will never again be forced from their homeland. Never agin also means that peace between people (as per Jordan, Egypt, pre Hamas Gaza) will only come with recognition of the Jewish State by the Arab world.
A conscience of a people may be reflected in it's elementary school texts. In Israel, the textbooks are for learning the sciences and humanities in order to improve the world we live in. The Arab citizens of Israel, and surrounding environs textbooks teach their children how to kill Jews. We'll see peace when the texts for the Muslims of Israel and surrounding territories teach their children science and the humanities.
Alas, the Arabs and the rest of the world need to face the fact that the State of Israel wasn't annihilated in a half dozen formal attempts by it's Arab populous and neighbors since the 1940's and scores of other lesser skirmishes since then.
Never agin means that the Jews will never again be forced from their homeland. Never agin also means that peace between people (as per Jordan, Egypt, pre Hamas Gaza) will only come with recognition of the Jewish State by the Arab world.
A conscience of a people may be reflected in it's elementary school texts. In Israel, the textbooks are for learning the sciences and humanities in order to improve the world we live in. The Arab citizens of Israel, and surrounding environs textbooks teach their children how to kill Jews. We'll see peace when the texts for the Muslims of Israel and surrounding territories teach their children science and the humanities.
Alas, the Arabs and the rest of the world need to face the fact that the State of Israel wasn't annihilated in a half dozen formal attempts by it's Arab populous and neighbors since the 1940's and scores of other lesser skirmishes since then.
32
How could anyone have made a worse mess of setting up a homeland for Jews than the extremist Jews have done. They appropriated the homes and farms of Palestinians; treated the Palestinian populace in the most brutal way; killed, injured, tortured, and imprisoned many Palestinians; and apparently thought this despotic approach was the way to establish a beloved homeland. Now they are increasingly being faced with retaliation by whatever force the Palestinian's can muster, and it is difficult to see where Israel has the intelligence to see the error of its ways and to get out from under the Netanyahu extremists' domination as they become more and more isolated among the civilized nations of the world. The question the world is asking is: Where do the Israeli extremists think they are going as they apparently stand on the deck of a sinking ship and continue to punch more holes in the structure of its sides? The Jews have always been a liberal group and there must be enough non-extremists to man the pumps and get the ship back on course.
41
The most tragic aspect of the decades of the Palestinian situation is that the Palestinians have been cynically manipulated into venting all their anger at Israel and the US, rather than the rich Muslim governments, corrupt Palestinian leaders and murderous terrorist organizations who prolong Palestinian suffering to use it as a weapon against Israel and the US.
Israel and the US are not without fault, but the Saudis, Kuwaitis and Iranians could have easily long ago given every Palestinian a mansion in their countries without stress.
In contrast, the media, UN and advocacy groups largely ignore the persecution of Christians in Muslim countries and the expulsion of Jews from their Arab homelands in 1948.
Israel and the US are not without fault, but the Saudis, Kuwaitis and Iranians could have easily long ago given every Palestinian a mansion in their countries without stress.
In contrast, the media, UN and advocacy groups largely ignore the persecution of Christians in Muslim countries and the expulsion of Jews from their Arab homelands in 1948.
19
The quality of the Palestinian leadership has always been abysmal. Looking back three-quarters of a century, it is impossible to find a single reasonable man among them who was prepared to make a final decent settlement of the problem with Israel. One expects corrupt
and extreme leaders in a conflict like this, particularly at the beginning, but the Palestinian ones grow worse over time and have now even reverted to spreading the basest of religious lies among their people. Lacking all vision and desire for a life with Israel as a friend and a neighbor, "they beat on [to quote Fitzgerald] boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past."
and extreme leaders in a conflict like this, particularly at the beginning, but the Palestinian ones grow worse over time and have now even reverted to spreading the basest of religious lies among their people. Lacking all vision and desire for a life with Israel as a friend and a neighbor, "they beat on [to quote Fitzgerald] boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past."
22
I suppose that explains why the Palestinians had about 50 percent of the land in 1949 and now have only 15 percent. It will drop to maybe 5 percent, with the de facto annexation of the West Bank by Israel.
6
The Palestinians never had 50% of the land. 80% of the land in Israel/Palestine has been state-owned since Ottoman times. It passed from Turkish to British to Israeli/Egyptian/Jordanian/PA control.
The propaganda maps they showed you are a lie.
The propaganda maps they showed you are a lie.
5
I lived in Israel for 10 years. East Jerusalem is NOT neglected. You should see the rate of construction there and the amount of money circulating. Blaming Israel for 'neglect' is simply a bias.
Regards
Regards
28
Uh...you're counting all the illegal settlements put up by the Israeli government, right? The ones their own Supreme Court ruled illegal??
Of course all this could have been avoided had the Arab world not decided to turn the Palestinians into a political football many decades ago. They still refuse to help them. Doesn't it make you wonder why?
32
It seems it served both the US and former USSR geo politically to have a conflict. There was always competition throughout Europe and Eastern Europe between the US and USSR, and that spread to the Middle East. Now the entire region is falling apart. However there is always the chance for peace if the Israelis allow the Palestinians to live in a equal manner based on Jimmy Carters writings, and the Palestinians recognize Israel's right to exist. There is blame on both sides. Now how to move on to peace in the final stages of the fifty year agreement that is coming due in 2017 after the 1967 conflict.
"Palestinians seething after year of neglect?" Neglects would be good compared to what they have: occupation, checkpoints, brutal military tactics. Basically, they're victims, and the victors, the Israelis, lord over them. Every now and then they revolt and American and Isreali media are on the same page by calling then terrorists. Blaming the victim.
52
Sad but my compassionate response, I'm afraid, is stiffled by astonishment of the Palestinian authority's unashamed celebration of targeting random civilians for murder and the training, brainwashing, and lies and propagandizing of their youth to further cultivate this apparently beloved type of terrorism they so prize.
28
I hate these false equivalence narratives. Indeed there is discrimination but 95% of it is brought on by the fact that Palestinian and Arab leadership has consistently incited the people with lies like an Israeli takeover of Al Aksa. What a sad joke that it gets brought up as if there is an ioata of truth there. If there is any "scandal" at all it is that some Jews and Christians would also like to pray on the temple mount (not in the mosque mind you - on the compound. Oh the audacity. Only Muslims allowed but the world likes its double standards as long as it can point a finger at Israel. Unlike Jim Crow there are Arab Knesset Members and Arabs in Hi-tech and doctors and lawyers and even an Arab on the Israeli Supreme Court. How many non Muslims have such clout in ANY Muslim countries. The Israelis would love a genuine peace agreement but YES - only if it meant peace. Oh and one other piece of baloney. Can someone name one brand new settlement in the last 8 to 10 years - I cant. Don't count growth in existing cities that in any proposed agreement - former or recent - is not slated to change hands.
29
I find Rudoren's article astonishing in its misrepresentation and ignorance. East Jerusalem was always the center of Jewish religious life in Jerusalem and was a Jewish majority population. Always! It was only in 1948 when Jordan captured the eastern half, threw out the Jews but not before destroying every synagogue and using Jewish gravestones as paving and building material and bringing in tens of thousands of arabs from Jordan, Lebanon and Syria to repopulate and take over formerly Jewish residences that it became a muslim majority sector.
38
History as per the Arab Textbooks...Israel and a Jewish presence has never existed in the middle east.
6
Not true. The 3 scriptural religions (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam) coexisted in the region for many centuries with occasional disputes mostly perpetrated by zealots.
3
Ruderon, when first in Israel, admitted that she knew nothing about the conflict. Her articles show that she still doesn't.
4
Faith is the most pernicious human behavior. It is the preemption of a health skeptical curiosity in favor of saying, "This I will believe, no matter what." It inadvertently blinds and worse the basis of all the mutual killing we do on behalf of our faith in creed, sect, clan and family.
It is the engine of most of this world's human strife. For only it prevents us from examining why we act as we do, when things we do are self-evidently self-destructive.
It is the engine of most of this world's human strife. For only it prevents us from examining why we act as we do, when things we do are self-evidently self-destructive.
2
When Palestinians finally realize that their problem is the Palestinian Authority, not Israel, then they may be able to make progress towards peace.
25
"the messages that a Jew is someone who comes to harm us, and endangers our religion"
What is truly toxic is that is blatantly true.
What is truly toxic is that is blatantly true.
65
What is truly toxic are fear and hate mongering false statements like yours. The only ones who endangers their religion are themselves, not the Israelis, nor the Americans. If you believe that you're highly misinformed.
12
That's exactly the type of thinking that perpetuates the conflict: blind hatred tinged with religious bigotry. Congratulations on your penetrating analysis.
11
Mark
Kindly explain exactly how a Jew is harming the religion of Islam or Christianity?
Kindly explain exactly how a Jew is harming the religion of Islam or Christianity?
12
Here is one occasion where the Times' coverage of Israel-Palestine belies its pattern of applying an Israeli frame of reference to its reporting.
The Times reporters Rudoren and Kershner have been justly accused of focusing on how Israeli Jews see things. In this piece Rudoren makes what I think is a sincere effort to look at the Palestinian side. Good for her and for the Times.
The Times reporters Rudoren and Kershner have been justly accused of focusing on how Israeli Jews see things. In this piece Rudoren makes what I think is a sincere effort to look at the Palestinian side. Good for her and for the Times.
94
And what would it be so terrible to write an article looking at BOTH sides?
4
Unquestionably, Israelis find themselves under some sort of attack. However, most reports about the attacks in Jerusalem and elsewhere fail to explain why the number of Palestinians killed the last few days is several times higher than that of the attacked Israelis - most of whom were merely wounded, not killed. At the same token, what about the Palestinian baby that was killed last week by Israeli soldiers - was it a 'knife wielding' aggressor? If Israelis want to be seen as innocent victims, not aggressors, why are they demolishing the houses of relatives linked to knife attacks and refuse to return the bodies of dead Palestinians? Israel needs to think long and hard about how leave decades of aggression and land grabbing behind and become a nation of responsibility and compassion.
265
the Palestinians are simply fed up with and are legitimately protesting the 68 year old jewish occupation of their homeland - like any other occupied people.
4
The bombing of Gaza, with the destruction of apartment buildings, sewage and water treatment plants, roads, schools, hospitals, was the beginning of the end of Israel's claim to be a victim. The Palestinians do not have bombers, or cannons or long range artillery. Israel has all of that, and she has used it against civilians. She has blockaded Gaza's ports, destroying their fishing industry. Weapons smuggling should not be a difficult thing to stop when you have a well armed, trained military. Of course, the complete imprisonment of a whole population works, I guess.
5
According to reports, Israelis are demolishing the homes of ALLEGED 'aggressors'...Israel has lost its soul, long, long ago...
4
How much security did Israel gain when it left southern Lebanon or the Gaza Strip? Was there a peace dividend gained by their unilateral withdrawal from those territories or did they get Hezbollah and Hamas right up against their borders, armed to the teeth? That's all the proof I need of Israels foes intent. I don't even like the current Israeli administration nor its settlement policies but I can't argue with their reasoning.
127
David, You have a right to your opinion but not your own set of facts. Israel did not leave Lebanon on its own. For Israelis, the Palestinian refugees in Lebanon were creating problems so they invaded Southern Lebanon; they were welcomed by the Lebanese people. but when the job was done the Lebanese asked them politely to leave their country, in return they were told that no before we leave we will empower the Christian militia in South Lebanon to do their bidding. That was the reason for the locals getting together and starting a resistance movement to get rid of the invaders. IDF was losing a lot of soldiers in maintaining its occupation. This was the reason for Israel to quit South Lebanon. Israel still occupies a part of South Lebanon and that is the reason for the conflict between Lebanon and Israel.
A lot have already been written why Israel was forced to quit Gaza.
BTW Gaza is still occupied in the form of an open air prison. There is no freedom of movement, no freedom of having any ports, nor any way out without the Israelis check points and hours of delay and dishonor.
Please check your facts.
A lot have already been written why Israel was forced to quit Gaza.
BTW Gaza is still occupied in the form of an open air prison. There is no freedom of movement, no freedom of having any ports, nor any way out without the Israelis check points and hours of delay and dishonor.
Please check your facts.
8
there was no Hamas or Hezbollah before the jewish occupation of southern Lebanon and concentration camp Gaza. jews did not withdraw but were forced to evacuate because of the hammer of the two resisting organizations. There was no PLO before 1948 when jews invaded and occupied 78% of Palestine under the doctored non-binding UN181. Yet jewish terrorist gangs existed and transformed into an army before PLO, Hamas and Hezbollah who were all living on their own homeland and invaded no one except resisting the jewish invasion of their homeland assisted by colonial Britain and the USA.
5
"Israels foes intent" is to give the Palestinians an independent state based on "JUST" peace, not dis-contiguous Bantustans scattered between illegal settlements that are still being built in violation of UN resolutions.
4
East Jerusalem Palestinians prefer not to vote in the city's local elections because they believe that would acknowledge Israel's sovereignty of the city, yet complain bitterly about not receiving equal municipal services.
It's called representative democracy. Vote in large numbers and you have a greater say over how the services are doled out.
So why not simply vote. Rationalize it however you wish. But vote. That's how the system works.
It's called representative democracy. Vote in large numbers and you have a greater say over how the services are doled out.
So why not simply vote. Rationalize it however you wish. But vote. That's how the system works.
186
But its obvious that it is impossible to "rationalize" voting for an authority that you regard as illegitimate. To do so legitimizes it. Your solution is no solution at all.
3
Democracy is not justice, Ira. Justice requires the law to treat all citizens equally.
2
what utter misleading propaganda: "representative democracy" under 68 years of brutal jewish military occupation of Jerusalem and all of Palestine?? Did the French and the Polish vote in "representative democracy" under the brutal Nazi occupation??
4
It's quite simple really. One group views and treats the other as second class and comes up with all sorts of reasons why that is OK, many of which are evidenced in the comments here.
178
Why didn't Palestinians "seethe" when the West Bank was controlled by Jordan for 30 years prior to Israel controlling the territory?
209
In two words. Respect and equality.
California is controlled by America. But we do not "seethe" because we are respected and treated as equals with everyone else.
Supposing California was controlled by Mexico and we were put into roadblocks, jobs were made limited and treated as second class citizens then we would rightly seethe with anger and rightly go for a revolution.
California is controlled by America. But we do not "seethe" because we are respected and treated as equals with everyone else.
Supposing California was controlled by Mexico and we were put into roadblocks, jobs were made limited and treated as second class citizens then we would rightly seethe with anger and rightly go for a revolution.
107
Actually they did seethe. My father, and all the male members of his family were imprisoned by the Jordanian government due to their opposition to Jordanian rule.
99
they weren't being murdered every day and their homes bulldozes, perhaps?
210
Obviously Israel, Gaza, and West Bank are becoming more and more integrated but unfortunately not through mutual respect but through hate. This area too has become part of the Middle East. No hope in that part of the world.
12
"integrated???" It is called military occupation for God's sake.
4
In summary, they had none of the privations of the west bank, all of the opportunities of full citizenship, without the mandatory draft, and they're still set on genocide.
159
John, Perhaps you missed the points in this article which state they only get menial jobs, suffer from high unemployment and are regularly treated in a demeaning way by police and security forces, and since they have no hope of it changing they resort to violence.
174
Nothing in this article can support your wiled eyed, scurrilous interpretation. As I write this, there are 16 people who have recommended your comment. As long as people believe that Israeli Jews are on the verge of another holocaust because of stabbings, rock throwing and resentment at a 50 year military occupation, there is no hope for the future and good people are left to despair. God help us all and may reason someday rule again.
4
Their homes are only bulldozed if they murder innocent Israelis in acts of terror.
11
If you're an American who has lamented the official segregation of Jim Crow in the 60s and earlier as offensive to human and civil rights, you ought to take a close look at Israeli society before you blindly support it.
Israel of course has security concerns that weren't present in the American South. But in the decade or so, Israel has shown zero interest in alleviating those security concerns by making peace. Israel is fine with the status quo of a never ending occupation of the West Bank and Jim Crow within its own borders. There's no reason America should support this.
Israel of course has security concerns that weren't present in the American South. But in the decade or so, Israel has shown zero interest in alleviating those security concerns by making peace. Israel is fine with the status quo of a never ending occupation of the West Bank and Jim Crow within its own borders. There's no reason America should support this.
517
The territory isn't "occupied" - it's disputed after Israel won it in a defensive war. It was controlled by Jordan before Israel and has never been under the control of so-called Palestinians so exactly how does that make it their territory?
245
So called "Palestinians" ? What establishes one as Palestinian? Do you really want to insinuate that they are not? So you are saying might makes right? I wish you would tell that to my grandfather ,who was sent to Dachau ,that one. One could use all the "defensive" arguments that have been used since the beginning of time & it will get you the same results. Isreal has not wanted peace since the assassination of Rabin? Why is the condemnation of injustice of the policies of Isreal anti-Semitic? Why cannot more than one people claim Isreal & Palestine as their homeland? Do people have to claim an ancient heritage ,many times abandoned for good reasons,to exist? Segregation has never worked. It is against the will of God. When we work together ,we can do great things. When we impose our will on others, we create what is happening in Jerusalem. Palestinian youth have no hope. Give them hope & you will have the beginnings of peace. Stop making excuses that kill.
54
AVR wrote: "...so-called Palestinians.."
Ignore the aspirations of millions of people? Explain how well this has worked so far?
Ignore the aspirations of millions of people? Explain how well this has worked so far?
55