Unfortunately, violence against Israeli Jews serves mainly to keep Netanyahu, and his party, in power. Uncompromising, hard-liners appeal to people in fear for their safety. The same is true on the other side. Until the people chose peacemakers to lead them, the violence will continue.
2
Why doesn´t israel accept the Arab League Peace Initiative and put an end of this stupid bloodshed once for all?.
The Arab League Peace proposal of 2002 is the most honest for all and will end Israel’s isolation.
"Israel needs to look hard at this initiative, which promises Israel peace with 22 Arab nations and 35 Muslim nations - a total of 57 nations that are standing and waiting for the possibility of making peace with Israel, “Kerry said.
The Arab League Peace proposal of 2002 is the most honest for all and will end Israel’s isolation.
"Israel needs to look hard at this initiative, which promises Israel peace with 22 Arab nations and 35 Muslim nations - a total of 57 nations that are standing and waiting for the possibility of making peace with Israel, “Kerry said.
5
Why are the Palestinians stabbing and killing innocent citizens? Why are the Palestinians not accepting Israel's right to exist? Are you willing to put yourself or your children under the risk of being injured or killed by terrorist when you go about your own business? Why are you so cavalier when the blood at risk is Israeli, not you own? One last question, address to my own President Obama, not to you. Why is Obama acting like you do? Why is the US criticizing Israel for using power in defending themselves, rather than coming to grips with the idea that terrorism should be stopped totally. He would not accept putting American citizens to the same dangers he is willing to expose innocent Israeli citizens. It is time to put the onus where it belongs, with the Palestinian murders and terrorist.
8
Balanced approach. I recommend to send this article to Mr John Kerry, so he may better understand the situation in Israel.
6
The Israeli press quotes John Kerry attributing the recent Palestinian stabbings to their frustration with Israeli settlement expansion... not to incitement from the Palestinian Authority and Hamas over false claims that the status quo regarding the Temple Mount is being reconsidered by the Israeli government. In so doing, the US Secretary of State only encourages the ongoing violence and makes his a hateful Islamist narrative. Is this symptomatic of something in the Obama administration, or is it just that the man has lost whatever marbles he ever had?
2
I fully agree and second your sentiment. John Kerry and his boss Obama have no clue in understanding what is CAUSE and what is RESULT. Onus should be put on the Palestinians to bring this new wave of violence to a total and complete end. Obama would never allow to put his own children exposed to the dangers innocent Israeli citizens are exposed to everyday. Sometimes I think that Obama will get it only after an incident will happen to one of his daughters, until then he will just keep to be thick and stupid. Please do not mis-understand me, I AM NOT WISHING this to happen to his daughters, I am wishing for him to understand what it means to be exposed to terrorism. I don't think Obama or Kerry get it.
4
I've some of the most popular comments. What most strikes me is how out of context they are. This is the Middle East, kids. To those so stridently in favor of Palestinian nationalism, have you even noticed what's going on across the (very close-at-hand) border? How's Lebanon doing? How's Syria, Iraq, Egypt, Yemen, Arabia, Libya? How well is government functioning across the Middle East? Are Palestinians some unique class of Middle Easterners that, given their 'freedom' would establish a just and righteous society? Israel is, by exponential order, the most functional just democratic society, including for its Arab citizens, in the MIDDLE EAST (all Jewish 'citizens' have fled Arab countries - a population transfer greater than the exodus of Palestinian Arabs from Israel). A lot of armchair quarterbacks here, with an undercurrent of clueless left wing racism. May you and your children never have to face what Israeli parents and children face every day - a prevailing regional culture of violent fundamentalist racist hatred.
11
Arabs did not expel any jew.
They left because they were promised to have comfortable home and good jobs in israel.
They left because they were promised to have comfortable home and good jobs in israel.
3
The obvious solution is the only real one: separation, two states with secure borders.
3
And who will secure those borders? Iran, Syria, Hamas?
4
And who will secure those borders?
israeli nukes of course!!
israeli nukes of course!!
1
And who will secure those borders? The US with the billions of dollars of aid and arms and its Security Council veto, just like it has always done! It would not actually take much for Israel to comply with international law and end the occupation by withdrawing to 1967 borders if it wished to do so, but it is blinded by greed and racism and sees no need to compromise with the Palestinians as long as it benefits from US protection.
2
The root cause of this violence is the Israeli occupation of Palestinian land, and the routine abuse of Palestinians.
The Israelis are now the victimizers and not the victims, and the NYT seems to be stuck in the past. The NYT coverage of this issue is hopelessly one-sided. It is time to look at the situation objectively.
The Israelis are now the victimizers and not the victims, and the NYT seems to be stuck in the past. The NYT coverage of this issue is hopelessly one-sided. It is time to look at the situation objectively.
8
The root cause of this and most of the violence in the Middle East is bad government, by which I mean violent fundamentalist racist tribal theocracies and autocracies that pillage and plunder and generally ignore the needs and hopes and dreams of their erstwhile citizens while blaming Jews and Americans and the 'West' for all their misfortunes.
Baddy is wrong, and hopelessly jaded and one-sided himself (herself?).
Baddy is wrong, and hopelessly jaded and one-sided himself (herself?).
3
That two Palestinian teenagers wanted to kill their 13-year-old Israeli cousin says a lot about the hatred among the two peoples.
People in Gaza are frustrated, because the rebuilding of city has been delayed by Egyptian and Israeli border restrictions.
Ahmed Rajabi says "We've always lived together. I don't know how such a thing happened. We don't agree with all this." It shows the spillover effects of the political turmoil in the region.
John Kerry will hardly be able to restart peace talks, given the political disarray in the West Bank.
People in Gaza are frustrated, because the rebuilding of city has been delayed by Egyptian and Israeli border restrictions.
Ahmed Rajabi says "We've always lived together. I don't know how such a thing happened. We don't agree with all this." It shows the spillover effects of the political turmoil in the region.
John Kerry will hardly be able to restart peace talks, given the political disarray in the West Bank.
1
Here's another headline, one fully supported by the facts and are easily gleaned from foreign news sources.
"Four Israeli's and twenty-nine Palestinians Have Been Killed in Latests Clashes over Israeli Policy Over the Temple Mount."
This loss of life is tragic and needless but it all flows from the same relentless policy of ethnic cleansing and territorial annexation. The Israeli's have a state with secure though not internationally recognized borders. When they withdraw from the West Bank and Palestine establishes a state roughly along the old Green line, both states can close their borders, save for mutually agreed crossings and this violence will cease.
The present policy is transforming military occupation into permanent apartheid. Let's hope that this doesn't happen, but so far the odds that it won't are not good.
"Four Israeli's and twenty-nine Palestinians Have Been Killed in Latests Clashes over Israeli Policy Over the Temple Mount."
This loss of life is tragic and needless but it all flows from the same relentless policy of ethnic cleansing and territorial annexation. The Israeli's have a state with secure though not internationally recognized borders. When they withdraw from the West Bank and Palestine establishes a state roughly along the old Green line, both states can close their borders, save for mutually agreed crossings and this violence will cease.
The present policy is transforming military occupation into permanent apartheid. Let's hope that this doesn't happen, but so far the odds that it won't are not good.
5
What should Hamas in Gaza and the P.A. in the West Bank do to help their people? When will the media and the world ask what the Palestinian governments need to do to lead their people?
5
The 9/11 terrorists were upset with the united states. Was the death of all those people acceptable ? No, except to the palestinians who celebrated by giving out candy in the same way they gave out candy when the henkins were murdered in front of their 4 children. Those children including a nursing 4 month old would have probably been murdered as well except that one of the gunman was shot by their fellow terrorists and had to be taken to the hospital.
8
Why am I not surprised that the bulk of the NYT comments center around how evil the Israelis are and how the poor Palestinians - who only want a state of their own and are willing to live in peaceful coexistence with the "murderous" Israelis.
Know your history before you open your mouths (or in this case your keyboards). Were the "Palestinians" willing to live peacefully before 1967 when Jordan controlled the West Bank? Most assuredly not. They engaged in terrorist attacks against civilian targets just like they do today. Were the Arabs willing to accept a state of their own in 1947 according to the UN Partition Plan? No - they flat out refused it and promised to drive the Jews into the sea! Were the Arabs willing to have Jews live among them in 1929 in Hebron (before there was even a state of Israel)? Nope - they rose up and tried to massacre the entire Jewish community in Hebron.
The recent attacks are simply the next wave in the Arabs' continual war against the Jews. To those who protest and condemn the Israelis for shooting these knife-wielding attacks - get real! Any law enforcement professional (and by the way it's not always Israeli law enforcement which is the first on the scene) will tell you that when you have an active attacker your goal is to neutralize them. That usually means that when you shoot, you shoot to kill - not to wound. Shooting to wound runs the risk that they will attack another innocent bystander and kill them as well.
Know your history before you open your mouths (or in this case your keyboards). Were the "Palestinians" willing to live peacefully before 1967 when Jordan controlled the West Bank? Most assuredly not. They engaged in terrorist attacks against civilian targets just like they do today. Were the Arabs willing to accept a state of their own in 1947 according to the UN Partition Plan? No - they flat out refused it and promised to drive the Jews into the sea! Were the Arabs willing to have Jews live among them in 1929 in Hebron (before there was even a state of Israel)? Nope - they rose up and tried to massacre the entire Jewish community in Hebron.
The recent attacks are simply the next wave in the Arabs' continual war against the Jews. To those who protest and condemn the Israelis for shooting these knife-wielding attacks - get real! Any law enforcement professional (and by the way it's not always Israeli law enforcement which is the first on the scene) will tell you that when you have an active attacker your goal is to neutralize them. That usually means that when you shoot, you shoot to kill - not to wound. Shooting to wound runs the risk that they will attack another innocent bystander and kill them as well.
8
"Know your history before you open your mouths (or in this case your keyboards)."
What a splendid idea. Zionism came out of Europe as a response to the blood-thirsty Christian pogroms. And, then, there was the "final solution" cooked-up by that nasty little German fellow. With that, "Next year in Jerusalem," became a plan and it didn't much matter that Jerusalem and the land around it was home to a people who weren't directly involved in the European excesses.
No matter, it is God's will, and God will provide war if nothing else.
As an aside, Bing West's "No True Glory," about the battles around Fallujah in 2004, noted that most Iraqi fighters were young men who, making individual decisions, grabbed the family AK and ran out to kill Americans. They weren't led in an organized war, they were incited by Arab TV and exhortations from the local Mosque.
What a splendid idea. Zionism came out of Europe as a response to the blood-thirsty Christian pogroms. And, then, there was the "final solution" cooked-up by that nasty little German fellow. With that, "Next year in Jerusalem," became a plan and it didn't much matter that Jerusalem and the land around it was home to a people who weren't directly involved in the European excesses.
No matter, it is God's will, and God will provide war if nothing else.
As an aside, Bing West's "No True Glory," about the battles around Fallujah in 2004, noted that most Iraqi fighters were young men who, making individual decisions, grabbed the family AK and ran out to kill Americans. They weren't led in an organized war, they were incited by Arab TV and exhortations from the local Mosque.
next year in jerusalem has been said ever since the Jews were exiled from Israel in 586 BCE. Jews have longed to return to Israel since then. This is pre-Islam.
3
@Stonecherub
You owe an apology to @Ido Dubrowsky, as you did open your mouth and keyboard in ignorance of historic fact on at least two counts.
1."Next year in Jerusalem" is not a response to the Final Solution but a concept predating the Holocaust by two millennia: it refers to the Roman destruction of Jerusalem and the Second Temple and the expulsion of the Jews in 66 CE. The longing for return began then; since at least the 11th c. the phrase has been part of Jewish life and liturgy; Jews of all backgrounds know the phrase “le-shanah ha-ba’ah bi-Yerushalayim” -- “Next Year in Jerusalem.” It appears twice annually: at the conclusion of the Passover Seder and at the end of the Yom Kippur service. The custom of saying “Next year in Jerusalem” on Passover existed as early as the 13th century.
2. You are mistaken in thinking that "Jerusalem and the land around it was home to a people who weren't directly involved in the European excesses." Palestinian leadership actively supported the Nazis during WWII. The Grand Mufti of pre-Israel Palestinewas closely allied with, and actively assisted the Nazis throughout the Second World War, even visiting Auschwitz. He led in the recruitment of hundreds of thousands of Muslims for the German SS (including Yassar Arafat), and actively worked with the Nazis to bring the Holocaust to Palestine. Muslim anti-semitism and support for the “Final Solution” continue to this day.
You owe an apology to @Ido Dubrowsky, as you did open your mouth and keyboard in ignorance of historic fact on at least two counts.
1."Next year in Jerusalem" is not a response to the Final Solution but a concept predating the Holocaust by two millennia: it refers to the Roman destruction of Jerusalem and the Second Temple and the expulsion of the Jews in 66 CE. The longing for return began then; since at least the 11th c. the phrase has been part of Jewish life and liturgy; Jews of all backgrounds know the phrase “le-shanah ha-ba’ah bi-Yerushalayim” -- “Next Year in Jerusalem.” It appears twice annually: at the conclusion of the Passover Seder and at the end of the Yom Kippur service. The custom of saying “Next year in Jerusalem” on Passover existed as early as the 13th century.
2. You are mistaken in thinking that "Jerusalem and the land around it was home to a people who weren't directly involved in the European excesses." Palestinian leadership actively supported the Nazis during WWII. The Grand Mufti of pre-Israel Palestinewas closely allied with, and actively assisted the Nazis throughout the Second World War, even visiting Auschwitz. He led in the recruitment of hundreds of thousands of Muslims for the German SS (including Yassar Arafat), and actively worked with the Nazis to bring the Holocaust to Palestine. Muslim anti-semitism and support for the “Final Solution” continue to this day.
6
In the past, the only thing that the Palestinians had going for them was that the arabs hated the Jews more than they hated them.
I do believe that to be changing.
The Palestinians were known as do-nothing squatters, and I think that other arab countries are starting to see Israel as an ally they can work with.
They might not admit it publicly, but the tide is very slowly changing.
I do believe that to be changing.
The Palestinians were known as do-nothing squatters, and I think that other arab countries are starting to see Israel as an ally they can work with.
They might not admit it publicly, but the tide is very slowly changing.
7
Considering the timing on this one --- is this the opening of the x-th act of the Syria war: Hezbollah and Hamas to commence a "crunch' of Israel, of course resulting into Benjamin getting provoked and striking back w/ real vengeance, giving Iran all the excuses it needs to truck up its army -- conveniently in Syria already --- all the way up to the Golan Heights?
The Israelis may be in serious trouble.
The Israelis may be in serious trouble.
The pundits are in disarray. The NY Times liberal commentators present diametrically opposite evaluations of President Obama’s Syria policy. And the carnage goes on unabated. The Russians are in and no one is sure why or if it’s good or bad. Absolutely no one has suggested a clear and practical way of winding down the mayhem.
For good reason!
There is no viable short term solution!
Powerful historic forces are at play which are impervious to the maneuvers of peripheral powers.
The decay in the cultures of the Islamic world has been obvious for hundreds of years. The response of the West was colonialism, exploitation, disdain. There was an unexpressed belief that these backward societies could make the transition to modernity by some magical mimicry, a transition that took the West a millennium. In reality, the colonial powers prevented any substantial progress. Now the pent up frustrations have exploded into an orgy of bestiality seldom seen in human history.
Once a nuclear bomb reaches it’s critical point, it cannot be neutralized. It’s monumental destruction must run its course. And so it is in the Moslem Middle East .
For good reason!
There is no viable short term solution!
Powerful historic forces are at play which are impervious to the maneuvers of peripheral powers.
The decay in the cultures of the Islamic world has been obvious for hundreds of years. The response of the West was colonialism, exploitation, disdain. There was an unexpressed belief that these backward societies could make the transition to modernity by some magical mimicry, a transition that took the West a millennium. In reality, the colonial powers prevented any substantial progress. Now the pent up frustrations have exploded into an orgy of bestiality seldom seen in human history.
Once a nuclear bomb reaches it’s critical point, it cannot be neutralized. It’s monumental destruction must run its course. And so it is in the Moslem Middle East .
4
The PLO was founded in 1964 to "free Palestine" when the entire West Bank was entirely Jordanian. The meaning of "Free Palestine" is to rid Israel of Jews. Read Arab papers and media (in translation, obviously) to see. Go to the sites (e.g., CAMERA) that report on the reporting.
The anti-Jewish incitement in the Arab schools, social media, PA gov't fliers, radio and TV, is and has been, incessant. The leaders and the people in the street have never, since before 1948, accepted the right of Jews to lead independent lives in Israel. Israel is guilty only of existing. Israel accepts rights of others to *some* of the land. The PLO, Hamas, Hizbollah, Iran, most Arab states and Arabs in Israel accept the rights of Jews to *none* of the land.
"Yitbah al Yahud" ("Death to the Jews") is heard every Friday in mosques; even those Arabs who do not agree with it are silent about it.
This uprising is not "spontaneous" in any way. It is simply coordinated differently.
The anti-Jewish incitement in the Arab schools, social media, PA gov't fliers, radio and TV, is and has been, incessant. The leaders and the people in the street have never, since before 1948, accepted the right of Jews to lead independent lives in Israel. Israel is guilty only of existing. Israel accepts rights of others to *some* of the land. The PLO, Hamas, Hizbollah, Iran, most Arab states and Arabs in Israel accept the rights of Jews to *none* of the land.
"Yitbah al Yahud" ("Death to the Jews") is heard every Friday in mosques; even those Arabs who do not agree with it are silent about it.
This uprising is not "spontaneous" in any way. It is simply coordinated differently.
8
I cannot seem to fathom how utterly biased this article is against the Palestinians. Videos of Israeli attacks that occurred in the past week quickly spread on social media and are extremely brutal. I do condemn attacks made by Palestinians, but what the Israelis do is numerous times more brutal.
There is a video of a 14 year-old boy who may have been shot on the ground, and the Israeli who was recording was calling him a "son of a -" numerous times and even called him "son of a 66 -", while the boy was helplessly injured on the ground with a bloody head. There is another video of a Palestinian lady being killed "execution-style" by Israeli forces while showing no reason for killing and in which the Israeli forces could have very easily restrained as she was only armed with a knife, according to the Israelis.
There is also a video of an old Palestinian man stopping more than 5 Israeli forces from shooting Palestinian children. You can find these videos on social media. Why were killings of more than 20 Palestinians not reported in the article, while only the 3 Israelis killed were extensively described?
There is a video of a 14 year-old boy who may have been shot on the ground, and the Israeli who was recording was calling him a "son of a -" numerous times and even called him "son of a 66 -", while the boy was helplessly injured on the ground with a bloody head. There is another video of a Palestinian lady being killed "execution-style" by Israeli forces while showing no reason for killing and in which the Israeli forces could have very easily restrained as she was only armed with a knife, according to the Israelis.
There is also a video of an old Palestinian man stopping more than 5 Israeli forces from shooting Palestinian children. You can find these videos on social media. Why were killings of more than 20 Palestinians not reported in the article, while only the 3 Israelis killed were extensively described?
5
there is no video showing the "execution" of a Palestinian lady. There is a video of her under guard because she stabbed someone. The video of the 14 year old is of the boy who stabbed a 13 year old numerous times while the boy was riding a bike. They are calling him names. Oh how harsh. It is understandable since he just attacked an INNOCENT 13 year old boy RIDING A BIKE! He was taken to an Israeli hospital to be treated. You know that both terrorists and victims of their attacks ar eoften treated at the same hospital and Israeli doctors save their lives?
4
here is the video of this "boy" and his cousin's activities. Note the knives
https://www.facebook.com/StandWithUs/videos/10153260050642689/
https://www.facebook.com/StandWithUs/videos/10153260050642689/
4
A significant number of Europe’s 1.4m Jews are now alarmed at the continued occupation and illegal settlement of Palestinian land by the rightwing, government of Binyamin Netanyahu one that holds the UN, the EU and the US in contempt.
This growing Jewish minority of ordinary Europeans disassociate themselves from the Likud policy agenda for a ‘Greater Israel’ that is now responsible for the near daily killing of Palestinian children in East Jerusalem and the West Bank and for the criminal blockade of 1.8m civilians in Gaza from obtaining essential supplies of medicines, foodstuffs and building materials.
This significant Jewish cohort wants a peaceful settlement to the dispute between armed Israelis and the dispossessed residents of the Occupied Territories who are subject not only to vicious restrictions on housing, essential supplies and free movement but also to the horror of Israeli ‘pricetag’ terrorists who burn their crops and demolish their homes whilst the IDF sits and watches.
Meanwhile, the silence from Britain, the EU and the US, is deafening.
This growing Jewish minority of ordinary Europeans disassociate themselves from the Likud policy agenda for a ‘Greater Israel’ that is now responsible for the near daily killing of Palestinian children in East Jerusalem and the West Bank and for the criminal blockade of 1.8m civilians in Gaza from obtaining essential supplies of medicines, foodstuffs and building materials.
This significant Jewish cohort wants a peaceful settlement to the dispute between armed Israelis and the dispossessed residents of the Occupied Territories who are subject not only to vicious restrictions on housing, essential supplies and free movement but also to the horror of Israeli ‘pricetag’ terrorists who burn their crops and demolish their homes whilst the IDF sits and watches.
Meanwhile, the silence from Britain, the EU and the US, is deafening.
4
one country - many cultures - that's a democracy.
Israel will have peace when the Jews stop trying to ethnically cleanse the country of Palestinians
Israel is NOT A DEMOCRACY it is a ethnocracy.
We have to stop supporting and oppose this and oppose the violence by the Saudis as well.
Right now we are arming Saudis and Zionists to hate and kill. They kill the wrong people. This inspires terrorism.
That's why young people are open to ISIS recruiting. We've easily outdone ISIS in blowing up the world and causing death and destruction.
Israel will have peace when the Jews stop trying to ethnically cleanse the country of Palestinians
Israel is NOT A DEMOCRACY it is a ethnocracy.
We have to stop supporting and oppose this and oppose the violence by the Saudis as well.
Right now we are arming Saudis and Zionists to hate and kill. They kill the wrong people. This inspires terrorism.
That's why young people are open to ISIS recruiting. We've easily outdone ISIS in blowing up the world and causing death and destruction.
3
"Attacks by Palestinians Kill 3 Israelis and Wound More Than 20"
One would think the Israelis had just been sitting on their hands. Actually, Ma'an lists attacks by Israelis that have killed ten Palestinians, including an infant and a pregnant woman.
One would think the Israelis had just been sitting on their hands. Actually, Ma'an lists attacks by Israelis that have killed ten Palestinians, including an infant and a pregnant woman.
4
israel did not target the infant and pregnant woman for death. They were targeting two Hamas weapons-manufacturing sites in the area. If Hamas did not put those items there, Israel would not have attacked. Can you say the same for the Palestinian terrorists that they are not out targetting Jewish people.
5
Palestinian civilians are just that, civilians, no matter where they are located, they remain civilians and Israel which possesses state of the art weaponry and is in effective control of the area, has a duty not to harm civilians. If we are to accept your flawed reasoning then by the same token, all Israelis serve in the army as combatants for a period and then remain on reserve for the majority of their lives, does this make them 'fair game' as targets?
Here we go again. Holocaust vividly in the wake of history and once again it's time to blame the Jews. Given a State and attacked by the entire Arab World practically the next day and they're "the" aggressors. Built a modern Eden in a wasteland with no surfeit of oil beneath their feet and every neighbor wanting to drive them into the sea. The miracle of a democracy admist cultures suppressed by deposits kings and princes sopping in the spoils of oil while their people starve and embrace a religion of death.
8
The stupidity and ignorance of many comment writers who call Israel an apartheid state is unbelievable. The conflict in the area is a political one, not racial and for someone who is familiar with the South African version the comparison sounds like a hollow joke.
The conflict was never solved because the miserable leaders of the warring parties are incapable of accepting the maximum offered by the other side because their people won't accept it. So, we have a deadlock which invites nationalistic and fanatic religious extremists from both sides who run the show. Israel is largely responsible for the situation by building settlements in the west bank, the biggest mistake ever done in the history of the country. However, I am prepared to guarantee that even without the settlements the parties would not reach a peace agreement because the Palestinian authority is too weak, corrupt to the bone and is a worse decision masker even in comparison to the Israeli government.
For many years now I am convinced that a solution can be achieved only by massive pressure on both sides by western countries, chiefly the US. The problem is that US leaders could never muster the courage to press Israel because of an internal rotten political system that is even worse than Israel's.
The conflict was never solved because the miserable leaders of the warring parties are incapable of accepting the maximum offered by the other side because their people won't accept it. So, we have a deadlock which invites nationalistic and fanatic religious extremists from both sides who run the show. Israel is largely responsible for the situation by building settlements in the west bank, the biggest mistake ever done in the history of the country. However, I am prepared to guarantee that even without the settlements the parties would not reach a peace agreement because the Palestinian authority is too weak, corrupt to the bone and is a worse decision masker even in comparison to the Israeli government.
For many years now I am convinced that a solution can be achieved only by massive pressure on both sides by western countries, chiefly the US. The problem is that US leaders could never muster the courage to press Israel because of an internal rotten political system that is even worse than Israel's.
9
@The Skeptic:
It is we who are skeptical -- of you.
The Ba'ath Party dictatorships of Syria and Iraq and The Arab Republic of Egypt were so weak internally they found it necessary to create a foreign enemy and keep it close to home, to distract domestic enemies. Israel fit the bill nicely.
The peace treaties between Israel and post-Nasser Egypt and Jordan followed by the overthrow of Iraq's Saddam Hussein Ba'ath Party dictatorship stripped Syria's al-Assad clan of much of its raison d'être. It could not fight Israel alone with any hope of winning. And a Shiite regime ruling a Sunni Arab nation could not withstand pressure to liberalize the Ba'ath police state keeping that Sunni majority out of power. Without the centrifugal unifying force of an enemy at the gates (the "Zionist Entity") it slowly frayed, then fell apart.
This while Israel weakened itself internally and externally (in the eyes of the World) by refusing to offer Occupied Palestine (aka: "the West Bank") acceptable terms for a peace treaty. Illegal Israeli settlements there and the open obscene coddling of Israel's messianic settler movement by a long succession of governments further damaged Israeli strategic interests.
It is we who are skeptical -- of you.
The Ba'ath Party dictatorships of Syria and Iraq and The Arab Republic of Egypt were so weak internally they found it necessary to create a foreign enemy and keep it close to home, to distract domestic enemies. Israel fit the bill nicely.
The peace treaties between Israel and post-Nasser Egypt and Jordan followed by the overthrow of Iraq's Saddam Hussein Ba'ath Party dictatorship stripped Syria's al-Assad clan of much of its raison d'être. It could not fight Israel alone with any hope of winning. And a Shiite regime ruling a Sunni Arab nation could not withstand pressure to liberalize the Ba'ath police state keeping that Sunni majority out of power. Without the centrifugal unifying force of an enemy at the gates (the "Zionist Entity") it slowly frayed, then fell apart.
This while Israel weakened itself internally and externally (in the eyes of the World) by refusing to offer Occupied Palestine (aka: "the West Bank") acceptable terms for a peace treaty. Illegal Israeli settlements there and the open obscene coddling of Israel's messianic settler movement by a long succession of governments further damaged Israeli strategic interests.
1
Mind boggling. Do Palestinians really believe that they can run over and ax to death Israeli civilians and not be shot while they do it? Really? Imagine what a cop in NYC would do in such an instance. Or in Moscow. Or in any city.
10
All commenters who rationalize violence against Israeli civilians must also give the same consideration to the people who just blew up the Turkish peace march - surely Turkey is not blameless; the 9/11 attacks - they felt they had grievances against the US, etc, etc., etc.
9
Anyone who is surprised and did not see this coming should go and live in West Bank for a year or so. Today's event and past decades events are nothing but the end result of occupation, tragic by that is the reality. Until occupation cease, Israel will continue to witness and live those episode of violence and hatred. And the longer the occupation persiste the more extremist party on both side will gain and prevail.
40 years ago the palestian party were all secular today we have religious fanatics on both side.
40 years ago the palestian party were all secular today we have religious fanatics on both side.
7
Yes, the Arabs were wonderful and peaceful neighbors prior to the occupation of 1967. Wake up. Why are they attacking in West Jerusalem, Rananah, Tel Aviv?
16
To AGM: Generally speaking I agree with you. However, and it's a great however, the Palestinians had their chance when Israel evacuated Gaza strip to the last meter and last settler. People in Israel and other places hoped that the Arabs will grasp this opportunity and will turn Gaza into Hong Kong of the Levant (Seriously. That's how people believed).
But then the incredibly corrupt and useless Fatah was quickly replaced, brutally, by Hamas who immediately destroyed any hope for peace and prosperity. Gaza is a hell hole out of it's people's free choice (Hamas got a majority vote in a democratic elections that was enforced on Israel by G.W. Bush and Condoleeza Rice, two infantiles who understood nothing about the middle east).
In some comments I read complains about Israel's "unproportional" reaction to rocket attacks from Gaza and I wonder what a heart bleeding New Yorker would have done if rockets landed in his place, flying from across the bridge every time a crazy Hamasnik or another lunatic from one of any number of Islamist organization is in the mood to do so.
For your information AGM, nothing broke the Israeli left who advocated peace since 1967 then Gaza's story. It was such a disappointment and failure and such an unexpected gift to Israel right wing nationalists and religious zealots.
But then the incredibly corrupt and useless Fatah was quickly replaced, brutally, by Hamas who immediately destroyed any hope for peace and prosperity. Gaza is a hell hole out of it's people's free choice (Hamas got a majority vote in a democratic elections that was enforced on Israel by G.W. Bush and Condoleeza Rice, two infantiles who understood nothing about the middle east).
In some comments I read complains about Israel's "unproportional" reaction to rocket attacks from Gaza and I wonder what a heart bleeding New Yorker would have done if rockets landed in his place, flying from across the bridge every time a crazy Hamasnik or another lunatic from one of any number of Islamist organization is in the mood to do so.
For your information AGM, nothing broke the Israeli left who advocated peace since 1967 then Gaza's story. It was such a disappointment and failure and such an unexpected gift to Israel right wing nationalists and religious zealots.
6
They were peaceful? What about The Hebron massacre? Which was when sixty-seven or sixty-nine Jews (including 46 yeshiva students and teachers) were murdered on 24 August 1929 in Hebron, then part of Mandatory Palestine, by Arabs incited to violence by rumors that Jews were planning to seize control of the Temple Mount in Jerusalem [which then as now was not true].
4
The Palestnians need a leader like Nelson Mandela to bring an end to what is clearly and indisputably an apartheid state. Netanyahu is nothing but a divider catering to Israel's equivalent of the Tea Party movement in America.
6
My word. Like Mandela ?- look at his legacy today - SA is a shambles and it started with him. His education policy , arms deal corruption and so on. The most overrated person on the planet.
2
Words. have. specific. meanings. Israel is not even remotely an apatheid state. Not. even. remotely. Check the definition of 'apartheid' and then go to Israel and see for yourself.
5
Apartheid is when a group of people in the same country are legally oppressed by the same government. The Palestinians have two of their own governments which they live under. Live and learn.
7
Jerusalem is the shortest path between earth and the sky. It has so much history that no one can overlook or deny its importance to each of humanity's three major religions! Peace is long overdue in this city. Violence, hatred and incitement do not spark out of nothing and do not happen overnight. Everything happens for a reason. The unjust unequal life Palestinians in Jerusalem has been encountering under the 67 years long illegal occupation of the city (according to International law) is what the world should address. Coexistence is possible and this is a land for everyone of all races and religions.
7
There were no "Palestinians" when Egypt and Jordan occupied Gaza and the West Bank prior to the Six Day War in 1967. The "unequal" life of the Palestinians is due their so-called leaders using them as pawns for their political misuse.
14
Paleistinians are a made up people they have no history because they never existed back then they were called egyptions or syrians or even iraqis to some extent.... no such thing as a paleistinian untill arafat invented them and planted his made up new flag
8
The same goes for Israelis, until 1948 they did not exist. The grandparents of today's Israelis were merely called Poles or Russians or Germans or Moroccans or so. In 1948 they made up a name for the new country, invented a flag and even taught themselves a largely invented language which is loosely based on a liturgical language!
If anything the Palestinians can claim a longer pedigree than Israelis as there existed a pre-1948 UN mandate over Palestinian and the pre-1948 population of Palestine, whether Muslims, Christians, Jews, Druze etc.. were Palestinians. Today their descendants are Palestinians wherever they may live. Simple really.
If anything the Palestinians can claim a longer pedigree than Israelis as there existed a pre-1948 UN mandate over Palestinian and the pre-1948 population of Palestine, whether Muslims, Christians, Jews, Druze etc.. were Palestinians. Today their descendants are Palestinians wherever they may live. Simple really.
If Germany were to occupy France today, I'm sure that all of the resistance fighters would quickly be labeled "terrorists." And I am just as confident that the United States government would quickly support such a move. And if the Germans took to killing 100 Frenchmen for every 1 German killed, you wouldn't hear a peep from the USA.
Substitute what you will.
Substitute what you will.
14
We could start by substituting reality. The Jews are the indigenous people of what used to be the land of Judea. The international community recognized this history when it created the Mandate for Palestine and gave the Jewish people a right of return to settle. This was a right recognized in international law.
The Jewish people have already ceded about 80% of the lands the international community allotted them in their historical Homeland - present day Jordan and Gaza. The problem is that the Arabs refuse to acknowledge the very existence of the Jewish people, their right of self determination and their millennial connection to their homeland. Their view is that lands once conquered by Muslims, as the Holy Land was by the Arab Imperial conquest of the 7th century, are forever Muslim. The problem remains continued Arab rejectionism that makes whatever Israel does or doesn't do effectively irrelevant to the search for peace. Israel is not going to disappear and so long as the Arabs view this reality as a humiliation to their dignity, the problem will continue to fester.
The Jewish people have already ceded about 80% of the lands the international community allotted them in their historical Homeland - present day Jordan and Gaza. The problem is that the Arabs refuse to acknowledge the very existence of the Jewish people, their right of self determination and their millennial connection to their homeland. Their view is that lands once conquered by Muslims, as the Holy Land was by the Arab Imperial conquest of the 7th century, are forever Muslim. The problem remains continued Arab rejectionism that makes whatever Israel does or doesn't do effectively irrelevant to the search for peace. Israel is not going to disappear and so long as the Arabs view this reality as a humiliation to their dignity, the problem will continue to fester.
25
If Germany were to occupy France today as a consequence of the French initiating a war against Germany, then Germany would have every right to occupy France until a peace treaty was signed between the two countries.
13
Evidently, you do not understand the difference between freedom fighters and terrorists. Sad.
3
Israel, as important as it is as a post-war state promising guranteed commitment to protecting all Jews from another Holocaust (a very real possibility) cannot continue to exist in its current form it is a country created by dispacing another tribe through violence.
Are other Arab states to blame for fostering terrorism, adherence to anachronistic dogma described as reliogion, and rivalries. Yes! Do these states care about Israel? No!
The region is unstable. I do not know what the solution is but putting Palestinians in a ghetto is not and has not been one of them.
Are other Arab states to blame for fostering terrorism, adherence to anachronistic dogma described as reliogion, and rivalries. Yes! Do these states care about Israel? No!
The region is unstable. I do not know what the solution is but putting Palestinians in a ghetto is not and has not been one of them.
6
they didnt put them in a ghetto they turned it into a ghetto instead of farming and science they bought ak's and rocket propelled grenades
4
Wow. Just wow. When it seemed the inanity of Israel's haters could not go any further, now we have people here and another column in the New York Times questioning the correctness of killing someone who has or is killing people in buses or walking down the street.
It first started, I guess, with the idea that the poor youths protesting when they throw stones, never mind that stones can be as fatal is any other weapons, were not to be stopped, but rather, celebrated. Then it went to the argument, apparently made seriously, that the missiles fired from Gaza, because they were not up-to-date and not so accurate, were harmless and no response on the part of Israel was justified. Now we have people arguing that those attempting to murder Israelis in the street should be left alone.
It first started, I guess, with the idea that the poor youths protesting when they throw stones, never mind that stones can be as fatal is any other weapons, were not to be stopped, but rather, celebrated. Then it went to the argument, apparently made seriously, that the missiles fired from Gaza, because they were not up-to-date and not so accurate, were harmless and no response on the part of Israel was justified. Now we have people arguing that those attempting to murder Israelis in the street should be left alone.
36
It seems so simple on its face... Palestinian terrorists going after innocent Israelis. Quite aside from the occupation issues, and the extreme difference in armaments and technology which facilitate Israel's overppwering position in that struggle, however, we here in the U.S. have no way of knowing accurately when Palestinian aggression or retaliation occurs versus when it is staged by Israel itself. What?! Staged?! Consider: Netanyahu and other right-wingers nearly burst their gaskets when: 1) Palestinians were accorded U.N. recognition, and 2) the Iran deal was signed. Just two of a number of setbacks for the ultra-nationalists. They are desperate to prove to the world that their security and very homeland survival is at stake, in spite of being armed to the teeth with notable military superiority. It would not surprise me that such desperation could beget desperate, even reprehensible, action. Nothing is out of the realm of possibility, given the politics of covert ops all over the world (not just Israel). Sacrifice its own citizens, one may rightfully ask, in the pursuit of a desperate goal? Yes, a difficult question to pose. Even moreso to answer umblinkingly.
4
Palestine belongs to its indigenous people not the European foreigners/colonists of the mid/late 20th century. Historians including Jewish historians & now DNA studies show that the 20th century colonists of Palestine (the Ashkenazi) are not descended from Semites but from Europeans who converted to Judaism in the Roman Empire era + the Khazars who converted from paganism c750 CE. eg.
1/ “Historian & Israeli former minister of Education Ben-Zion Denur called Khazaria the mother of one of the greatest Diasporas-of Israel in Russia, Lithuania & Poland”
2/ Abraham Polak, founder of Univ of Tel Aviv`s dept`t of Mid East History wrote that it was an unlikely thesis that the Jews in the Khazarian kingdom originated in Israel/ Palestine ie. they had no Abrahamic descent.
3. Ben Gurion wrote that there was no exile after the Romans put down the revolts of the 1st & 2nd centuries & that most of the Jews converted to Islam in the 7th century to avoid paying the tax on all non-Muslims.
4/ 2013 genetic study: "Ashkenazi Jews do not stem from Hebrews" http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1208/1208.1092.pdf. ie They are not from the Near East while of course the Mitrachi Jews & Palestinians are both Semitic peoples.
The only tie to Palestine the Ashkenazi have is their adopted religion.
1/ “Historian & Israeli former minister of Education Ben-Zion Denur called Khazaria the mother of one of the greatest Diasporas-of Israel in Russia, Lithuania & Poland”
2/ Abraham Polak, founder of Univ of Tel Aviv`s dept`t of Mid East History wrote that it was an unlikely thesis that the Jews in the Khazarian kingdom originated in Israel/ Palestine ie. they had no Abrahamic descent.
3. Ben Gurion wrote that there was no exile after the Romans put down the revolts of the 1st & 2nd centuries & that most of the Jews converted to Islam in the 7th century to avoid paying the tax on all non-Muslims.
4/ 2013 genetic study: "Ashkenazi Jews do not stem from Hebrews" http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1208/1208.1092.pdf. ie They are not from the Near East while of course the Mitrachi Jews & Palestinians are both Semitic peoples.
The only tie to Palestine the Ashkenazi have is their adopted religion.
Saving a Young Terror Victim’s Life
Yesterday (Oct 12), one of The Fellowship’s coordinators in Jerusalem literally saved the life of the 13-year-old boy who was stabbed during one of four local terror attacks. At the moment, the Fellowship staffer is recovering psychologically from the trauma, so we don’t have the complete story, but this is what we do know.
Yesterday afternoon, the Jewish boy was riding his bicycle outside a candy store when a 13-year-old Palestinian terrorist and a 17-year-old Palestinian terrorist armed with knives attacked him. The Jewish boy, who is still in critical condition, was stabbed nearly a dozen times in the upper part of his body, including one of his main arteries. The Fellowship staff member happened to be outside of her office on her way to a grocery store when she heard the boy crying that he had been attacked. Very cool headedly, she picked up a cloth from the ground and applied a tourniquet to stop the bleeding. She held the boy in her arms until the arrival of the ambulance. The doctor who operated on him at Hadassah Medical Center said on TV that without this he would have died.
Read more: http://www.blog.standforisrael.org/articles/saving-a-young-terror-victim...
Follow us: @StandForIsrael on Twitter | StandforIsrael on Facebook
Yesterday (Oct 12), one of The Fellowship’s coordinators in Jerusalem literally saved the life of the 13-year-old boy who was stabbed during one of four local terror attacks. At the moment, the Fellowship staffer is recovering psychologically from the trauma, so we don’t have the complete story, but this is what we do know.
Yesterday afternoon, the Jewish boy was riding his bicycle outside a candy store when a 13-year-old Palestinian terrorist and a 17-year-old Palestinian terrorist armed with knives attacked him. The Jewish boy, who is still in critical condition, was stabbed nearly a dozen times in the upper part of his body, including one of his main arteries. The Fellowship staff member happened to be outside of her office on her way to a grocery store when she heard the boy crying that he had been attacked. Very cool headedly, she picked up a cloth from the ground and applied a tourniquet to stop the bleeding. She held the boy in her arms until the arrival of the ambulance. The doctor who operated on him at Hadassah Medical Center said on TV that without this he would have died.
Read more: http://www.blog.standforisrael.org/articles/saving-a-young-terror-victim...
Follow us: @StandForIsrael on Twitter | StandforIsrael on Facebook
19
Mr. Abbas doesn't encourage any suggestions from Palestinians as to what next. Remember, the press is controlled and manipulated in the West bank, let alone Gaza. Palestinians, and there is a small minority, who really DO want peace and a sensible, mutual solution keep quiet, or they will become targeted as "collaborators" - death threats or worse. Don't know if this is violence is top down, or vice versa, but either way it resolves nothing.
Why aren't the young frustrated with Abbas? Actually, they are, but just like the old European pogroms against Jews, where frustrated Europeans vented their anger at poverty, no civil rights, etc. against an easy target, the same is happening here.
There are issues in some East Jerusalem neighborhoods with poor sanitation, little to no policing, rampant crime (Palestinian on Palestinian), and the Jerusalem municipality is stymied to change this, nor can they just fork over jurisdiction to the PA, because the PA refuses to work out many day to day issues, even before there's a comprehensive agreement. So the blame isn't just on Israel. If the PA cared for its people, it would find the means to negotiate who/how controls these neighborhoods. Fact is they like the chaos, because it guarantees more generations of angry, hating Israel youth.
Why aren't the young frustrated with Abbas? Actually, they are, but just like the old European pogroms against Jews, where frustrated Europeans vented their anger at poverty, no civil rights, etc. against an easy target, the same is happening here.
There are issues in some East Jerusalem neighborhoods with poor sanitation, little to no policing, rampant crime (Palestinian on Palestinian), and the Jerusalem municipality is stymied to change this, nor can they just fork over jurisdiction to the PA, because the PA refuses to work out many day to day issues, even before there's a comprehensive agreement. So the blame isn't just on Israel. If the PA cared for its people, it would find the means to negotiate who/how controls these neighborhoods. Fact is they like the chaos, because it guarantees more generations of angry, hating Israel youth.
17
Yes because they're not human right? Yes, naturally they don't love their children and want happiness for them the way we do. They're Palestinian, they're different. They don't share our humanity, so they don't deserve peace and security.
4
@Ray Ray, the Palestinians celebrate these murderers as heroes. They are indeed more interested in death than life. Just listen to their rhetoric, they don't hide these things. That is very different from the society I belong to. I readily admit that I have trouble understanding this bleak mindset.
9
Netanyahu's response to this violence is clearly moving Israel to an apartheid state. A far cry from the ideals of the Hebrew scriptures which describe Israel as " a light to the world".
7
So the world would be better with two South Africas?
1
"Apartheid State"?? Freely using irrelevant terms does not help to bolster your case.
7
Sounds like Apartheid to me. Unfortunately.
Another victim today. Haim Habib, 78, has been named as one of two fatalities in the stabbing and shooting attack on a bus in the capital's Armon Hanatziv neighborhood on Tuesday.
Habib's wife, Shoshana, remains hospitalized in serious condition in Shaare Zedek Medical Center in Jerusalem. Police concluded on Tuesday evening that two Israelis were killed and seven more injured in the attack perpetrated by two Arab terrorists.
The two terrorists, residents of Jabel Mukaber in eastern Jerusalem, entered the bus armed with a pistol and two knives.
After the terrorists began to stab and shoot passengers, the bus driver opened the doors of the bus allowing some civilians to escape.
One of the terrorist then ran to the driver's seat and locked the doors before continuing to harm passengers.
A police patrol car from the Oz station arrived on the scene and along with Border Police quickly identified the terrorists on the bus. They fired at the two assailants and disarmed them.
Baha Alian, 23, a Fatah terrorist who had previously expressed pro-terrorism views, was shot and killed by security forces at the scene.
The second assailant is a Hamas terrorist who was jailed for his involvement with the terror group in 2013-14. He was wounded and taken into Israel Police custody for questioning.
Habib's wife, Shoshana, remains hospitalized in serious condition in Shaare Zedek Medical Center in Jerusalem. Police concluded on Tuesday evening that two Israelis were killed and seven more injured in the attack perpetrated by two Arab terrorists.
The two terrorists, residents of Jabel Mukaber in eastern Jerusalem, entered the bus armed with a pistol and two knives.
After the terrorists began to stab and shoot passengers, the bus driver opened the doors of the bus allowing some civilians to escape.
One of the terrorist then ran to the driver's seat and locked the doors before continuing to harm passengers.
A police patrol car from the Oz station arrived on the scene and along with Border Police quickly identified the terrorists on the bus. They fired at the two assailants and disarmed them.
Baha Alian, 23, a Fatah terrorist who had previously expressed pro-terrorism views, was shot and killed by security forces at the scene.
The second assailant is a Hamas terrorist who was jailed for his involvement with the terror group in 2013-14. He was wounded and taken into Israel Police custody for questioning.
23
Hmmm. I wonder what possibly could have lead these people to such a dire state of madness?!
5
You are justifying stabbing another human being. Nothing justifies that.
6
Thanks for the actual facts.
4
Reviewing this violence from a moral standpoint may reassure certain people, but this violence, -neither directed nor planned in the usual sense- is a very bad sign of where things stand. The perpetrators are what you'd expect, twenty-something males, no future. This kind of center-less, spontaneous, nihilistic violence is now becoming a thing, the same way school shootings in the US are a thing. The meme takes root. You have to wonder about the particular factors in the "cultural soil" that all this violence springs from. Blame the Jews! Or, The Arabs are savages! ...is the common response.
Our delusions come back to cause us such trouble.
Our delusions come back to cause us such trouble.
4
Investigations show that the violence IS directed and planned. The Palestinian fanatics do excel at something - terror.
8
In other words the majority of the commentators justify the attacks by knives and cars on bystanders including women and children only because they are Jews. It is nice to know.
30
Stop it with the pity party. You have free reign in Palestinian. You are the masters of their destiny, so why pretend like you're the ones being oppressed.
5
Ray Ray that's paternalistic. If the palistinian people put the billions of dollars they received in international aid to use as donated, Gaza could have been a fantastic place to live. The Palestinians could have built hospitals, houses, invested in infrastructure and done things o better the lives of the people who live there. I visited the Gaza strip when Israel controlled it and it was wonderful. Instead, they put the money into weapons to use against israel as well as enriching the pockets of the Gaza leadership and also creating THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY MURDER INCENTIVE FUND. The PA also allocates funds to families of killers, with special grants for families of killers who die as while committing an act of murder.
According to the PA distribution formula, the more severe the attack conducted by the killer and the longer the prison sentence, the more the stipend is increased proportionately.Amad Awad and Hakim Awad, who brutally murdered five members of the Fogel family in Itamar (including a 3 month old baby), have so far received almost 75,000 shekels each. According to the PA’s fund distribution formula for murderers, they’ll continue to receive stipends that will even reach 12,000 shekels a month. When calculating the total sum throughout their lives, they will each receive 2.4 million shekels for the multiple murders they committed.
According to the PA distribution formula, the more severe the attack conducted by the killer and the longer the prison sentence, the more the stipend is increased proportionately.Amad Awad and Hakim Awad, who brutally murdered five members of the Fogel family in Itamar (including a 3 month old baby), have so far received almost 75,000 shekels each. According to the PA’s fund distribution formula for murderers, they’ll continue to receive stipends that will even reach 12,000 shekels a month. When calculating the total sum throughout their lives, they will each receive 2.4 million shekels for the multiple murders they committed.
10
No pity party here Ray or in Alex's comment. Just statement of facts.
How sickening are the comments here apologizing or justifying violent acts of murder that specifically target civilians. "Yes it's horrible but..." and then they bring up the occupation.
What Palestinian land were Israelis occupying, and what settlements were they building in Gaza/West Bank/East Jerusalem, in 1948 when the surrounding Arab nations declared a jihad and launched a war of genocidal aggression against Israel?
The answer is none.
Both Arabs and Jews were offered their own nation over seventy years ago when two states were first proposed. The Jews accepted, the Arabs refused and chose genocidal violence instead. Genocidal violence which has literally not ceased to this day.
People keep blaming Palestinian violence on Israeli actions (occupation, settlements, etc.) that started decades AFTER the original violence began. This is the warped and perverse logic of your average Palestinian/supporter.
Yes, Israeli settlements on Palestinian land are illegal. But so are attempts by the Arabs to murder Jews and destroy their state. Unfortunately for Pals and their apologists, the latter precedes the former and as such it will be required to cease first.
What Palestinian land were Israelis occupying, and what settlements were they building in Gaza/West Bank/East Jerusalem, in 1948 when the surrounding Arab nations declared a jihad and launched a war of genocidal aggression against Israel?
The answer is none.
Both Arabs and Jews were offered their own nation over seventy years ago when two states were first proposed. The Jews accepted, the Arabs refused and chose genocidal violence instead. Genocidal violence which has literally not ceased to this day.
People keep blaming Palestinian violence on Israeli actions (occupation, settlements, etc.) that started decades AFTER the original violence began. This is the warped and perverse logic of your average Palestinian/supporter.
Yes, Israeli settlements on Palestinian land are illegal. But so are attempts by the Arabs to murder Jews and destroy their state. Unfortunately for Pals and their apologists, the latter precedes the former and as such it will be required to cease first.
32
It would appear that a lot of commentators thinks that Palestinians are justified in attacking random Israeli civilians because they have been mistreated in some way by the Government of Israel. I wonder whether these commentators think this applies anywhere else in the world. In most contexts, such behavior is regarded as criminal; but I guess it's okay when Palestinians are addressing their grievances against Israel.
But what exactly are those grievances? I infer from the various comments on this board that three things are required for peace to reign: Israel must withdraw from the West Bank, allow the Palestinians to have their own state hugging the 1967 armistice line, and allow Jerusalem to be divided between these two states.
The thing is that Israeli leaders have offered this to the Palestinians on three occasions: by Ehud Barak in 2000 and in 2001 and by Ehud Olmert in 2008. The problem is that this solution was rejected by the Palestinians on all three occasions. In fact, after Barak's proposal, the Palestinians embarked on a 5 year intifada. That suggests that just possibly they weren't negotiating in good faith.
Maybe this isn't what the Palestinians really want? Maybe what they want is the elimination of Israel--and the Jews living there--altogether? That is certainly what they tried to do on several occasions in the past. And it seems to be what opinion polls conducted amongst the Palestinians seem to indicate.
But what exactly are those grievances? I infer from the various comments on this board that three things are required for peace to reign: Israel must withdraw from the West Bank, allow the Palestinians to have their own state hugging the 1967 armistice line, and allow Jerusalem to be divided between these two states.
The thing is that Israeli leaders have offered this to the Palestinians on three occasions: by Ehud Barak in 2000 and in 2001 and by Ehud Olmert in 2008. The problem is that this solution was rejected by the Palestinians on all three occasions. In fact, after Barak's proposal, the Palestinians embarked on a 5 year intifada. That suggests that just possibly they weren't negotiating in good faith.
Maybe this isn't what the Palestinians really want? Maybe what they want is the elimination of Israel--and the Jews living there--altogether? That is certainly what they tried to do on several occasions in the past. And it seems to be what opinion polls conducted amongst the Palestinians seem to indicate.
29
Want to stop the violence? Respect Islamic control of the Al Aqsa Mosque compound. Control of the West Bank is enough; keep away from Al Aqsa!
Jordan controls al Aqsa administratively. But Jews have the right to go there, too. What started this latest round. Was the Arab women harassing the "dirty Jews and their filthy feet" (to quote Abbas from the Arabic). The "open" city ideal provided for Jews and Arabs to coexist in Jerusalem. The 1948 war against Israel put an end to that - and kept Jews away from the Western Wall until 1967. The Palestinians have no one to blame for their current sad state other than their own corrupt leadership and the Arab world, which has used them for 50 years as a distraction.
24
So they're killing civilians in Rannanah and Tel Aviv because of delusional beliefs about Al Aqsa? That makes sense.
11
No one was touching Al Aqsa. These are lies spread by Abbas to back up his speech at the UN.
8
if you look at the photo slide show it was shows the "Religious volunteers, in a photograph provided by the Israeli government, cleaned up at the scene of the bus attack in Jerusalem." These men are part of ZAKA, which is perhaps best known for its sacred, yet grisly work in collecting human remains to ensure a proper Jewish burial." It is a value of life and respect for the dead. Where are the bodies of the Israeli dead soldiers like Hadar Goldstein and Oron Shaul? Where is the respect for the dead?
10
The usual finger pointing on both sides. What the other side does is a "heinous crime"; our side is always justified.
The Palestinians have realized that they have their state - Gaza- and that is all they will get. Hence, some of them have evidently decided the only thing left to do is to make life miserable for the Israelis.
Let it not be forgotten that the Israelis have done much to make life miserable for them, too.
But Israel has done a remarkable thing: it has allowed the Palestinians to survive and retain a national identity. This is a first in world history. We didn't do it. That was a different time: If Europeans had started coming to America's shores around the turn of the last century, the newcomers would have had a much more difficult time wiping out the Native Americans than they did in the 18th and 19th centuries. In fact, we wouldn't have been able to get rid of them. Israel founded a state during a time in history when it was not ok to wipe out a pre-existing population if your group needed their land.
Indeed, the Jews were given Palestine, precisely because they had faced genocide themselves. They could hardly turn around and wipe somebody else off the earth.
But now, they will never enjoy their homeland in peace. To do so, you must commit genocide.
Unless....they find a way to coexist. It's never been done. But Jews are first at many things.
The Palestinians have realized that they have their state - Gaza- and that is all they will get. Hence, some of them have evidently decided the only thing left to do is to make life miserable for the Israelis.
Let it not be forgotten that the Israelis have done much to make life miserable for them, too.
But Israel has done a remarkable thing: it has allowed the Palestinians to survive and retain a national identity. This is a first in world history. We didn't do it. That was a different time: If Europeans had started coming to America's shores around the turn of the last century, the newcomers would have had a much more difficult time wiping out the Native Americans than they did in the 18th and 19th centuries. In fact, we wouldn't have been able to get rid of them. Israel founded a state during a time in history when it was not ok to wipe out a pre-existing population if your group needed their land.
Indeed, the Jews were given Palestine, precisely because they had faced genocide themselves. They could hardly turn around and wipe somebody else off the earth.
But now, they will never enjoy their homeland in peace. To do so, you must commit genocide.
Unless....they find a way to coexist. It's never been done. But Jews are first at many things.
5
I hope you're right.
3
There is South Africa. Again.
This madness and hatered has existed since the establishment of Israel it seems that peace has NO chance between the Israelis and Palestinians no matter WHAT agreements or whatever is pursued. Prehaps complete seperation of the two states may be the ONLY answer to STOP the bloodshed!
As long as Iran supported hamas and hezbollah provokes Israel from two fronts diplomacy and detente appears a pipe dream!
It is not merely a matter of whose right or wrong or who provokes who in these violent incidents, it is obvious that it will never end unless and until each side is permanently seperated from the other !
Every other possible idea or attempt to resolve the dilemma has and will continue to fail !
Their is absolute opposites in religious and political philosophies and land ownership determination in the region, thus permanent division and seperation of the races and nationalities can be the ONLY solution or the violence and hatred will not just continue it will inevitably escalate with more deadly results !
Israel is Israel and Palestine is Palestine and as we have seen for over what 70 years ? the two CANNOT and WILL NOT co-exist as neighbors together !
As long as Iran supported hamas and hezbollah provokes Israel from two fronts diplomacy and detente appears a pipe dream!
It is not merely a matter of whose right or wrong or who provokes who in these violent incidents, it is obvious that it will never end unless and until each side is permanently seperated from the other !
Every other possible idea or attempt to resolve the dilemma has and will continue to fail !
Their is absolute opposites in religious and political philosophies and land ownership determination in the region, thus permanent division and seperation of the races and nationalities can be the ONLY solution or the violence and hatred will not just continue it will inevitably escalate with more deadly results !
Israel is Israel and Palestine is Palestine and as we have seen for over what 70 years ? the two CANNOT and WILL NOT co-exist as neighbors together !
2
Great idea. Israel would love to do it.
Oh wait, they did. They tried in Gaza. It was a complete separation from Gaza. Worked out beautifully. Those in Gaza lived happily ever after and went about building their own state.
Oh wait, they did. They tried in Gaza. It was a complete separation from Gaza. Worked out beautifully. Those in Gaza lived happily ever after and went about building their own state.
14
Except one of those states is not permitted to exist, trade, or become self sufficient.
2
Those who justify the stabbing of innocent Israelis, often by children, reflect the growth among US leftists of the anti-Semitism which is raising its ugly head in the US and regularly seen in responses to the NY Times.
It probably won't impact said bigots, but they really should read Times report on cartoons shown on Palestinian TV inducing kids to take knives out on everyday Israelis. Of course, what isn't discussed are the Palestinian grade school text books which urge children to grow up to become martyr murderers of Jews.
It doesn't matter what the frame of reference is, the attacks by Palestinian children on Jewish Israelis reflects a truly toxic society. And it should surprise no one that the children who have engaged in such savagery are being celebrated by both the Palestinian Authority and Hamas. Sick is the most appropriate word for such celebrations...
It probably won't impact said bigots, but they really should read Times report on cartoons shown on Palestinian TV inducing kids to take knives out on everyday Israelis. Of course, what isn't discussed are the Palestinian grade school text books which urge children to grow up to become martyr murderers of Jews.
It doesn't matter what the frame of reference is, the attacks by Palestinian children on Jewish Israelis reflects a truly toxic society. And it should surprise no one that the children who have engaged in such savagery are being celebrated by both the Palestinian Authority and Hamas. Sick is the most appropriate word for such celebrations...
26
Yes because your description of Palestinians as other than human isn't bigoted right? Yes Palestinians celebrate death, murder, genocide. They don't want their children in schools or to have a good future, they're Palestinians after all. Do you even see the irony and pathetic one sidedness in your comment?
2
You're conflating antisemitism with anti-Israel. I think many here have nothing against jews, but think Israel is a terrorist state -- bulldozing, settlements, discrimination, and on
2
Sorry, the Arab media incites against Jews as Jews, not Israelis. Abbas' most recent pronouncement was about Jews and their "filthy feet" desecrating the Temple Mount. And do you really need to be reminded of Hamas' Charter calling for the extermination of Jews worldwide.
Please be honest, if you support the Palestinians, that is what you're buying into because that is their stated goal - and they seem proud to share it openly.
Please be honest, if you support the Palestinians, that is what you're buying into because that is their stated goal - and they seem proud to share it openly.
9
Pull back to the 1967 borders. Remove all illegal settlers from the West Bank. Allow Jerusalem to be a shared capital. Remove Israel military outposts from the West Bank and 99% of the volience goes away.
5
The volience will go away, but the violence stays.
5
I urge the Israeli government and its people to be as disciplined as possible in dealing with this challenge. Base action on evidence as much as possible.
Be careful of escalation.
Be careful of escalation.
The Syrian Civil War finally arrived in the Israeli Occupied West Bank, 180 miles away ... . Sunni Jihadists vs Shiites in Lebanon and Syria. Sunni Jihadists vs Jews in Occupied Palestine.
Conceivably, Jews and Shiites could find common ground in the face of this threat, an existential threat for both; the basis of an alliance to resist the onslaught. In The Land of The Bible, Biblical reasoning: "The enemy of my enemy ...", that sort of thing. But all parties in the region are trapped by history; especially their past mistakes. Snared in a trap of their own making.
So, instead of strategic alliances made to achieve a common purpose -- survival -- it will be war. A war of all-against-all, for all Eternity.
Conceivably, Jews and Shiites could find common ground in the face of this threat, an existential threat for both; the basis of an alliance to resist the onslaught. In The Land of The Bible, Biblical reasoning: "The enemy of my enemy ...", that sort of thing. But all parties in the region are trapped by history; especially their past mistakes. Snared in a trap of their own making.
So, instead of strategic alliances made to achieve a common purpose -- survival -- it will be war. A war of all-against-all, for all Eternity.
1
Is this any surprise? Israelis have repeatedly elected a racist and violent rightwing government which has done everything within its power to ensure that no solution to the problem is possible, from accelerating the building of settlement in the occupied West Bank to arming and protecting extremist Jewish settlers who are set loose to rampage on the Palestinian population, to carefully ensuring that no economic independence or future is possible for the Palestinian population under Israeli occupation (in the case of Gaza, the population must be kept at a standard that is barely above subsistence level), to most recently actively encouraging violence by allowing unnecessarily provocative visits to the Temple Mount by Jewish extremists including members of the government, culminating in Israeli soldiers entering the mosque and firing teargas inside the mosque in order to incite this kind of response. The Palestinian population of East Jerusalem have been living in that city for generations but if they for any reason leave the city for more than 2 years (say for education or work) the Israelis deny them the right to return to their city, meanwhile their homes are being given to Jewish extremists who are imported from all far flung corners of the earth. This is a nation that has completely lost its way and in its greed for land and domination of the native Palestinians has embraced a state of permanent occupation that is far worse than apartheid.
4
Why are Christians and Jews and non-religious tourists and visitors prevented from visiting the Temple Mount, when it is equally or even more important to them? Is it not more ethical to welcome them to join in worship at this equally revered spot? By this dog in a manger behavior Palestinians show that they are not ready for nationhood. When they are ready to create a secular society, where members of other cultures and other faiths are treated equally, when women are enfranchised, when gays and the handicapped are not discriminated against, maybe then they will be ready.
18
E Paul, do you even realize that you're asking the Palestinians to have a secular society, whilst probably maintaining the Jewish nature of Isreal. Hilarious.
1
You really know nothing about Israel or the difference between the religion (Judaism) and the ethnic group (Jews), yet you feel some weird compulsion to post your ignorance so publicly. Israel is a liberal, secular democracy in the nation state of the Jewish People. That it is surrounded by irredentist, religiously fundamental dictatorships and theocracies must be confusing to you.
10
I'll work hard for any presidential candidate who speaks up for the Palestinian people.
6
And I'll work hard for any Democratic candidate for president who will finally hold the corrupt dictatorships' in the west bank and Gaza feet to the fire.
1
Historians of colonialism will compare this with Kenya's Mau Mau revolution which drove out ruling British colonists. The British maintained a strict color bar, virtually enslaved the original black population, paying them very little and beating them for infractions with no accountability for the assaults. Those who wanted the whites out appeared to be docile servants during the day, then slaughtered their white masters at night and burnt their luxurious homes to the ground. The British soon got the message and turned tail and ran.
While it is easier in some ways for non-Muslim Westerners to relate to Israel's Jews, many of whom live a secular Western lifestyle, comparisons to Kenya are striking. Palestinian refugees from the 1948 War have not recovered their homes. The West Bank, which Israel promised to be a future Palestinian State has been widely littered with Jewish settlements which are essentially armed camps and prevent any real two state solution; and another large segment of the Palestinian population lives in enforced cramped conditions in Gaza. In Israel proper, discrimination against Palestinians is rampant.
Israel COULD turn itself totally into the second apartheid South Africa. After all, it was one of the apartheid state's allies. However, this would also likely result in the total boycotted destruction of the Israeli economy.
Israel's only salvation is a true two state solution - the very thing it refuses do seek.
While it is easier in some ways for non-Muslim Westerners to relate to Israel's Jews, many of whom live a secular Western lifestyle, comparisons to Kenya are striking. Palestinian refugees from the 1948 War have not recovered their homes. The West Bank, which Israel promised to be a future Palestinian State has been widely littered with Jewish settlements which are essentially armed camps and prevent any real two state solution; and another large segment of the Palestinian population lives in enforced cramped conditions in Gaza. In Israel proper, discrimination against Palestinians is rampant.
Israel COULD turn itself totally into the second apartheid South Africa. After all, it was one of the apartheid state's allies. However, this would also likely result in the total boycotted destruction of the Israeli economy.
Israel's only salvation is a true two state solution - the very thing it refuses do seek.
4
Of course, those same Palestinians that have not recovered their homes have not been treated well in Muslim countries, and are often forced to live as refugees. Have you called for them to receive equal rights of citizenship in those countries? 80% of the original Palestine lies in Jordan. Have you called for the Jordanians to carve out a homeland for the Palestinians? Jews were forcibly expelled from Muslim lands, and had to surrender their property and businesses under the threat of violence. Have you called for a return of those properties to the rightful Jewish heirs? Or, as I suspect, do you only like concessions when they are made by Jews?
16
Arab leaders have kept unfortunate refugees in states of squalor for decades, in order to use them as political pawns against Israel.
4
Why. don't. you. know. history. Israel has been trying to give them their own state for 70 years. Look it up. It. Is. a. fact.
5
In biblical times there were maybe a couple of million people scattered throughout the middle east- now the population increases by as many people every year or so. Fifty times the biblical population inhabits the region with resources stretched to the limits and in some cases collapsing. Peace is a pipe dream under these circumstances- who ever can muscle their will on "others" will do so. Don't look for settlements to stop, resource hording to increase and land grabs whenever possible. Few look to the demographics but the demographics dictate the policy.
'Suspected' of being assailants?--give me a break! Who is the NYT trying to kid? No innocent terrorists were killed in any of these incidents. The first and only objective is to foil the attacker, and if that means lethal force, so be it.
19
Yes no do process for the Palestinians. They're probably not human by your account.
3
Ray: are you suggesting that terrorists be allowed to rampage at will? How many more killed or injured to give a brutal criminal weilding a meat cleaver 'due process'? A terrorist is a terrorist. No excuses; and if you believe that's not reasonable, I suggest you put your family where your mouth is.
1
So, when a 13 and 15 years old Palestinians attack Israelis with knives, the killing of a such 15-years old to prevent him from killing more Jews is, according to President Mahmoud Abbas of the Palestinian Authority a “heinous crime”. This is all you need to know about Israel's "aggression" and Palestinians' "peace loving".
17
What if the Israelis tried a conciliatory approach so gaining worldly approval. Never done before; why try now. Better the killing of lots of Palestineans and a few Israeli Jews as the cost of aggression
1
"the conciliatory approach" is admitting to past crimes and the end to current ones.
do you believe that the united states only end slavery because they wanted to look good?
the purpose for ending injustice is ending injustice, not a popularity contest.
do you believe that the united states only end slavery because they wanted to look good?
the purpose for ending injustice is ending injustice, not a popularity contest.
1
Interestingly, many of the commentators on this forum have focused on presumed Israeli offenses. At their core, these comments insist that the Israelis should have simply allowed the attacking hordes to overrun them and accepted the slaughter that the Arab countries certainly intended to perform in 1948 and 1967. Would any of these commentators have shed a single tear for these Jews?
Similarly, many of these comments have discussed the plight of displaced Palestinians. If the Palestinians have such a thirst for coexistence, why have they openly discussed their desire to expel the Israelis from the land? Why have they embraced Hamas as part of a unity government? Why have they rejected every opportunity for two state rule? Do these behaviors seem consistent with a desire to live as peaceful neighbors?
Finally, I am not aware of a single comment on this forum that discusses the similar plight of Jews that were forcibly expelled from their homes and ordered to surrender their property and businesses in Muslim countries, including Iran, Lybia, Iran, Syria, and Yemen. My suspicion is that none of these observers who so openly bemoan the state of the Palestinians (and often justify the slaugter of Israeli civilians) have never shed a tear or lost a moment's sleep over displaced Jews. These well-meaning commentators would do well to explore the origin of this omission. Certainly, the answers are likely disturbing.
Similarly, many of these comments have discussed the plight of displaced Palestinians. If the Palestinians have such a thirst for coexistence, why have they openly discussed their desire to expel the Israelis from the land? Why have they embraced Hamas as part of a unity government? Why have they rejected every opportunity for two state rule? Do these behaviors seem consistent with a desire to live as peaceful neighbors?
Finally, I am not aware of a single comment on this forum that discusses the similar plight of Jews that were forcibly expelled from their homes and ordered to surrender their property and businesses in Muslim countries, including Iran, Lybia, Iran, Syria, and Yemen. My suspicion is that none of these observers who so openly bemoan the state of the Palestinians (and often justify the slaugter of Israeli civilians) have never shed a tear or lost a moment's sleep over displaced Jews. These well-meaning commentators would do well to explore the origin of this omission. Certainly, the answers are likely disturbing.
14
Cut the nonsense. No one believes these lies in 2015. Everyone knows who the oppressors are.
1
I couldn't care less about Israel while they illegally steal land and oppress through military actions. Israel is its own enemy. Where is the memory of how many died when Israel bombed the Palestinians? Over how many deaths of Israelis? The numbers are always devastating to the Palestinians. Now that some are acting out their anger over all the injustice Israel thinks they are the victims? I don't buy that argument any longer. Israel is its own enemy. Divest my taxes from supporting this violent regime.
9
It is up to Israel and Palestine to fix this quagmire. Neither country wants peace. This administration is right to keep both countries at arm's length.
2
The United States needs to stop the blind, unilateral support of Israel in the UN and limit the flow of munitions to Israel. The US taxpayer will not not blindly support this bellicose and belligerent country for much longer.
7
Every story on Israel and Palestine, as well as other stories related to longstanding disputes such as China/Taiwan, North/South Korea, Turkey/Kurds, UK/Falkland Islands should include sufficient short-term and long-term historical accounts and perspectives. Otherwise, these stories undoubtedly will be offensive to one group or another. We hold the Times to a high standard over other news outlets who publish get away summary-format stories without background and expect a fair and balanced coverage.
I don't personally think the reporters were intentionally biased, but I can definitely see why the top comments were on reporting "amnesia" with NO historical backgrounds offered. I certainly haven't forgotten the inequality in the thousands Palestinians dead vs. scores Jews dead just in the conflicts just last year.
I don't personally think the reporters were intentionally biased, but I can definitely see why the top comments were on reporting "amnesia" with NO historical backgrounds offered. I certainly haven't forgotten the inequality in the thousands Palestinians dead vs. scores Jews dead just in the conflicts just last year.
3
OK. So how many Palestinians have been killed so far?
8
I wish Israelis would realize they can't keep Palestinians under the horrible conditions they live under indefinitely. Gaza is a giant prison camp where there is no hope and no dreams. Palestinians have nothing to lose as everything has been taken away from them. So, they lash out every way they can. This will only get worse. What is Netanyahu and the Israelis going to do? Kill the entire Palestinian population?
8
The Palestinian Arabs insist on settling things on the battlefield and they continue to get their heads handed to them. I support Israel, a civilized western democracy. As long as the Arabs want all or nothing, they will get what they always get....nothing.
12
This shouldn't make headlines. Let's see now. The conflict has been going on for 50 years. They'll just have to agree or fight it out. The US should no longer be a mediator.
3
Since this is always such an inflammatory topic, I'm genuinely glad to see some reasonable comments in the thread below.
There are no statesmen or women involved right now. That's the fundamental problem. Nobody''s being the grownup. The Palestinians are resorting to their usual petty violence, even though we all know a "day of rage" is about as helpful as a "day of hitting ourselves over the head with bricks." The Israelis, meanwhile, are being led by the worst neocon of the all, a man who has somehow managed to alienate many American supporters of Israel (myself included), which is almost unbelievable.
The world powers, the US especially, are more or less missing in action as best I can tell. I'm not normally one to blame the president for his foreign policy, but in this instance his aloof detachment really does seem to be making things worse.
If the poor-to-awful state of most of the Middle East is any guide, I fear this will end badly. The last thing the region needs is yet another, yet another, violent conflict. Something needs to be done and soon.
There are no statesmen or women involved right now. That's the fundamental problem. Nobody''s being the grownup. The Palestinians are resorting to their usual petty violence, even though we all know a "day of rage" is about as helpful as a "day of hitting ourselves over the head with bricks." The Israelis, meanwhile, are being led by the worst neocon of the all, a man who has somehow managed to alienate many American supporters of Israel (myself included), which is almost unbelievable.
The world powers, the US especially, are more or less missing in action as best I can tell. I'm not normally one to blame the president for his foreign policy, but in this instance his aloof detachment really does seem to be making things worse.
If the poor-to-awful state of most of the Middle East is any guide, I fear this will end badly. The last thing the region needs is yet another, yet another, violent conflict. Something needs to be done and soon.
3
Why is it so hard for Westerners to understand that the backers of the Palestinians will never want peace with Israel?
Those who know the history of the region never mistake this battle as an issue for land.
Israel knows it is fighting to avoid another Holocaust; it cannot wait for secular Western nations to wake up to this reality.
We must remember that It was European Nations which fueled the Holocaust. Only the Jews understand the hatred they face and cannot play political correctness games.
Those who know the history of the region never mistake this battle as an issue for land.
Israel knows it is fighting to avoid another Holocaust; it cannot wait for secular Western nations to wake up to this reality.
We must remember that It was European Nations which fueled the Holocaust. Only the Jews understand the hatred they face and cannot play political correctness games.
13
The Europeans committed the crime, yet the Palestinians are made to pay for it. Yes that sounds very fair.
>> “Why not put them under curfew?” Ms. Ben Zichri, 59, asked of the city’s 300,000 Palestinian residents. “I should be able to walk freely.”
The lack of irony in that quote does wonders to explain why there is no peace in the region.
If you want peace, work for justice.
The lack of irony in that quote does wonders to explain why there is no peace in the region.
If you want peace, work for justice.
10
Let's assume that Giveret Ben-Zichri isn't murdering and mutilating her fellow citizens with meat cleavers, cars, and bullets when she walks out to the grocery store, shall we?
The most dangerous place for any Jew is Israel.
Out of a global Jewish population of 14.3 million, the minority of the 6 million who currently live in Israel are, statistically, substantially at far greater risk of political or religious inspired violence than any Jew in America or Europe.
The primary cause of the now endemic violence is the inability of the indigenous population of the region to accept the imposition of a Jewish state in a Middle East.
It is now clear that, in view of the increasing enmity engendered in both Arab and Jewish populations since 1948, there will now never be a settlement between the opposing factions. On the contrary, violence is currently increasing exponentially as positions harden.
That being the case, it would seem that any voluntary immigrant into Israel is placing themselves at personal risk of violence. Not an ideal place for retirement and many are coming to the inevitable conclusion that despite an element of occasional anti-Semitism there is now a strong case to be made for dumping Israeli residencey in favour of the security of New York, Philadelphia, Paris, Toronto and London where Jewish communities have lived peacefully since before Mr Netanyahu was born, and still do.
As for the Holy City of Jerusalem: now is the time for the UN to take control of what has already been designated an ‘international city’ with a permanent contingent of UN troops whose remit must be to allow free access to all faiths, in perpetuity.
Out of a global Jewish population of 14.3 million, the minority of the 6 million who currently live in Israel are, statistically, substantially at far greater risk of political or religious inspired violence than any Jew in America or Europe.
The primary cause of the now endemic violence is the inability of the indigenous population of the region to accept the imposition of a Jewish state in a Middle East.
It is now clear that, in view of the increasing enmity engendered in both Arab and Jewish populations since 1948, there will now never be a settlement between the opposing factions. On the contrary, violence is currently increasing exponentially as positions harden.
That being the case, it would seem that any voluntary immigrant into Israel is placing themselves at personal risk of violence. Not an ideal place for retirement and many are coming to the inevitable conclusion that despite an element of occasional anti-Semitism there is now a strong case to be made for dumping Israeli residencey in favour of the security of New York, Philadelphia, Paris, Toronto and London where Jewish communities have lived peacefully since before Mr Netanyahu was born, and still do.
As for the Holy City of Jerusalem: now is the time for the UN to take control of what has already been designated an ‘international city’ with a permanent contingent of UN troops whose remit must be to allow free access to all faiths, in perpetuity.
3
Your statements reflect your bias not facts. Israel is safe and these attacks are not as dangerous as USA school shootings.
These seemingly random Palestinian knife attacks and (in other news stories) use of cars to run over Jewish Israeli pedestrians are sadly not random. They are the consequence of nearly fifty years of occupation unalleviated by a negotiated peace settlement. No country's people can live amongst or next door to a people they are repressing and expect daily life to remain peaceful. For a while, yes, it appears to work. With the erection of a huge wall and other barriers, for a time, yes, it appears normality resumes. But eventually, many of the oppressed will lose all hope of carving out some sort of partially satisfying existence as second class citizens or non-citizens contained in occupied townships. That's when these seemingly random, hopelessly outgunned attacks start to occur. The attackers probably feel, "Why not? I have little to live for." If I had to compare current day Israeli treatment of Palestinians to anything, it suggests to me what the Jim Crow South would have evolved into, had the federal government, Northerners, and the South's black population not been successful in insisting on real change. Israelis are reaping the consequences of their "success" in dominating the Palestinians and ignoring the need for Palestinians to run their own lives and own government, or be included as full citizens in a new, secular, multi-ethnic different Israel that could no longer be the Jewish state its current people want. Something has to give here.
8
Keep hope alive.
With Netanyahu there is no more hope.
The relentless expansion of settlements under his administration, the senseless slaughter of innocents during his recent Gaza incursion (over 500 children killed. The horrible conditions many Palestinians live under. Netanyahu's last minute election statement that while he was Prime Minister there would be no two state solution has finally lit the fuse under the Palestinian people, who no longer have an illusion of light at the end of the tunnel.
Abbas has given up on him, Obama has given up on him, Europe has given up on him, and so has the United Nations.
Palestinians rightly believe he will never give them a state. He has pushed them as far to the wall as they are willing to tolerate. As long as the Israeli people could live in relative safety and peace he was their man and his methods were barely discussed. Now Netanyahu and Israelis may sow what they have reaped.
i
With Netanyahu there is no more hope.
The relentless expansion of settlements under his administration, the senseless slaughter of innocents during his recent Gaza incursion (over 500 children killed. The horrible conditions many Palestinians live under. Netanyahu's last minute election statement that while he was Prime Minister there would be no two state solution has finally lit the fuse under the Palestinian people, who no longer have an illusion of light at the end of the tunnel.
Abbas has given up on him, Obama has given up on him, Europe has given up on him, and so has the United Nations.
Palestinians rightly believe he will never give them a state. He has pushed them as far to the wall as they are willing to tolerate. As long as the Israeli people could live in relative safety and peace he was their man and his methods were barely discussed. Now Netanyahu and Israelis may sow what they have reaped.
i
7
It took 2000 years to create the State of Israel. Jews were home less for that long time. Now Israel wants to deprive Palestinians as long as possible. But I don't think it will take 2000 years for Palestinians to reclaim their own land. because USA will not stay Super Power for that long time. If we look at the history life expectancy on an average of a Super Power is 500 years. But time will say when Palestinians reclaim their own land.
2
Most Americans are unaware of the daily oppressive conditions to which the Israelis subject the Palestinians.
Anna Baltzer is a young Jewish Amrican who has done an excellent job explaining the problem.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_MDC2Gty4I
Anna Baltzer is a young Jewish Amrican who has done an excellent job explaining the problem.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_MDC2Gty4I
7
This is not a chicken-and-egg issue. The only reason that Israel restricts Palestinians is that they resort to terrorism.
There were many instances in the past, 1948, 2000, 2009 when they could have gotten almost all they wanted but not all and they refused. Their real aim is to destroy Israel and will not agree to any political solution that does not include that.
Regretfully, there are many far-leftist American Jews, as the one you quote, who see the world through upside-down lenses. As an early 20th century Zionist leader Ze'ev Jabotinsky once said about such Jews: "Allow us to have our own scoundrels".
There were many instances in the past, 1948, 2000, 2009 when they could have gotten almost all they wanted but not all and they refused. Their real aim is to destroy Israel and will not agree to any political solution that does not include that.
Regretfully, there are many far-leftist American Jews, as the one you quote, who see the world through upside-down lenses. As an early 20th century Zionist leader Ze'ev Jabotinsky once said about such Jews: "Allow us to have our own scoundrels".
3
The headline says 3 dead, but I count 5 deceased people from what I read in the story. When you publish one of the frequent public shootings with victims in USA, you include the shooter in the count if he/she gets killed or self-killed too. Palestinian attackers don't qualify journalistically as dead when they die?
2
"Why not put them under curfew?” Ms. Ben Zichri, 59, asked of the city’s 300,000 Palestinian residents. “I should be able to walk freely.”
This is perhaps one of the most absurdly ironic statements ever uttered. Walking freely is a right only afforded to Israeli's? And it should come at the cost of another's right to walk freely?
This perfectly illustrates the Israeli sense of privilege and entitlement that dehumanizes the Palestinian people. Meanwhile Palestinians are relegated to ghettos (more irony in that ghettos were first instituted for Jews in Venice centuries earlier). Israeli's would do far better to treat the Palestinians with dignity. Hatred and terrorism after decades of mistreatment can be greatly diminished by future decades characterized by justice and compassion.
This is perhaps one of the most absurdly ironic statements ever uttered. Walking freely is a right only afforded to Israeli's? And it should come at the cost of another's right to walk freely?
This perfectly illustrates the Israeli sense of privilege and entitlement that dehumanizes the Palestinian people. Meanwhile Palestinians are relegated to ghettos (more irony in that ghettos were first instituted for Jews in Venice centuries earlier). Israeli's would do far better to treat the Palestinians with dignity. Hatred and terrorism after decades of mistreatment can be greatly diminished by future decades characterized by justice and compassion.
11
Israelis earned the right to walk freely because in those rare cases when Jewish extremists attack Arabs in Israel, the whole society condemns them, despise them, and sentence them to long prison sentences. Palestinians, on the other hand, glorify terrorists, name town streets and squares after them and pay their families large sums of money they receive as international :help", hide them from authorities. This attitude and actions disqualifies them to "walk freely".
5
This is not "mayhem" out of nowhere. The Palestinians are following a very calculated strategy to sow fear and provoke a response. The apologists for the Palestinians should give up the fantasy that these stabbings, car crashes and other attacks are spontaneous outbursts stemming from "frustration." They are part of a very familiar and purposeful pattern of behavior.
16
The Palestinians play Westerners like a violin, plucking at their heart strings.
4
When you continue to elect an oppressive tyrant, you have to expect repercussions...
8
Oh, you mean Abbas and Khaled Mashaal neither of whom have allowed an election in many years in the west bank or Gaza, respectively.
4
The solution is WMDs: Weapons of Mass Distraction. Cable TV, video game arcades, and air conditioning...wouldn't people choose these options over violence if they had them?
Both sides are right and both sides are wrong. This will not end and if it does it will not end well.
3
This article reports Palestinian attacks on Israelis as newsworthy facts, with numbers of dead and wounded, but treats Palestinian casualties very differently. Ambassador Mansour's letter is quoted but disputed. There is no reporting of the underlying facts. Fair reporting would give the reader the number of Palestinians killed and wounded during the same time period. Then the reader could see that over the life of this conflict, the overwhelming majority of dead and injured, of lives destroyed, are Palestinian.
6
When one side uses suicidsl soldiers their casualties are higher.
I am ever so delighted about the comment that read below as a Jew of choice. I have supported all the attempts to join the two parties ever since i became one decades ago. I am originally from Finland where we were murdered by Russians and my mother always said : it is the government - not the people. same applies here.
1
The Palestinians are emboldened by Obama's refusal to support Israel in the traditional fashion of past U.S. presidents. They are sure to be taking military and financial aid from Putin and Russia, who want to deflect attention from their aggressive actions in Syria by provoking the Palestinians. Watch for more of the same aggression from the Iranian surrogate Hamas in Gaza and Jerusalem. Stay strong Israel and President Netanyahu. Your speech before Congress has proved to be a predictor of things to come. Unfortunately our feckless U.S. president will never recognize that fact.
8
“We are focused on our mission of fighting the murderers and inciters, and I am sure that the actions we take will bring the other side to understand that terrorism does not pay.
There's that word "terrorism" again, the catchall term to justify any behavior regardless. Israel might just as well don a fig leaf as well and pretend to tell the outside world that they're fully clothed. That presumed fig leaf serves as nothing more than a disgrace to the god they presume to pretend to worship and lay sole claim to.
There's that word "terrorism" again, the catchall term to justify any behavior regardless. Israel might just as well don a fig leaf as well and pretend to tell the outside world that they're fully clothed. That presumed fig leaf serves as nothing more than a disgrace to the god they presume to pretend to worship and lay sole claim to.
2
These are orchestrated attacks designed to be portrayed in sympathetic media outlets as spontaneous rebellion against an oppressive "occupier". The problem is that the world has seen this show before and it is becoming a dated rerun.
8
I think the article should more forcefully clarify that the attacks are coming now because Abbas has incited them. He has widely publicized an entirely false claim that Israelis are preventing Muslims from praying at the Temple Mount and otherwise threatening the holy site. This is completely untrue. But it has whipped the Arabs into a frenzy. People should know that these lies promulgated by Abbas and the Palestinian Authority are the reason for these attacks; the stalemated situation in general is not the reason. This is so callous on the part of Abbas, it is almost beyond belief.
12
What part of Abbas' comment that the entirety of the Temple Mount belongs exclusively to Muslims, that there never was any Jewish presence there, the Jews defile it with "their filthy feet" and that Muslims must defend the al-Aqsa mosque from destruction, do people not understand to be a statement of Islamic religious supremacism? Claims of Jews desecrating or seeking to destroy al-Aqsa are nothing new, and never had anything to do with Occupation. In 1929, most infamously, the Grand Mufti leveled the same false but religiously motivated accusation which unleashed a Muslim pogrom against Jews that lead in part to the Jewish abandonment of their millennial old community in Hebron. It was at that time that the claim that al-Aqsa was Islam's third holiest place was first made - can anyone point to the "third holiest" place of any other religion?
We need to face the reality that stares us all in the face. The issue from the Arab side has never been about land but about theology: the Jews are supposed to be a weak and despised minority doomed to a status just above slave, how dare they not only reassert their sovereignty to land once conquered by Muslims but actually prosper and, along the way, repeatedly defeat all Arab attempts to annihilate them? In the Arab's honor-shame society, is it any wonder that they seethe with humiliation and reject any and all compromise?
We need to face the reality that stares us all in the face. The issue from the Arab side has never been about land but about theology: the Jews are supposed to be a weak and despised minority doomed to a status just above slave, how dare they not only reassert their sovereignty to land once conquered by Muslims but actually prosper and, along the way, repeatedly defeat all Arab attempts to annihilate them? In the Arab's honor-shame society, is it any wonder that they seethe with humiliation and reject any and all compromise?
14
The perpetual conflict and violence between Israel and the Palestinians can come to an end once and for all whenever the U.S. government decides to stop it merely by cutting off all economic and military aid to Israel and stop being the sole representative in the U.N. that blocks all resolutions, through its veto power, to bring peace to the region backed by the U.N. delegations of the rest of the world. Then Israel, which ranks itself as the 3rd most powerful military in the world, will have to decide for itself if holding conquered territory and blocking the two state solution is more important than living perpetually by the sword.
10
How many Palestinians are dead from the Israeli occupation and who is there for the remedy.
4
Before you comment on what and why Israel is doing to keep the peace, just look at the newspapers and news media throughout the country and see what crime goes on and how our police forces react to it. There can be no peace in Israel or Palestine without recognition by the Palestinians of Israel's right to exist. Without that, there will be no peace. If Israel is an occupying country, then so is the United States, Australia, Russia, China and the list goes on and on. The fact is that Israel is always asked to act in a fashion that is above reproach or a step above. You are more likely to be shot and killed here in America then in Israel. When I read some of the inane responses, I know why the United States has deteriorated to the extent it has. When we bombed by error the hospital in Kunduz, there were a few comments. At last count, I was the 444th. Look at yourselves before you criticize others.
10
Israel as is will disappear because it has never worked out in its present form. It was never respected by the Middle East, never embraced by Europe, and only could exist because of US support. It never stood on its own legs but rather acted like a son of its rich father David, like a prince Absalom. This is not a criticism of Israel but rather an expression of sadness.
2
Why the past tense? israel is still very much present and reday to go. WHEN is your prediction isupposed to happen?
1
Another place we should get out of. There will be no Rapture, no book of revelations. Ever. And if the Israelis throw away their state, indeed their souls, in trying to keep Palestinians from having a state, it is no business of ours.
6
I don't own a gun, but if I did and someone tried to stab me or some other innocent person near me, I'd shoot him without thinking twice about it.
I figure the people who have a problem with this kind of thinking are just a lot nicer than I am. Or something else.
I figure the people who have a problem with this kind of thinking are just a lot nicer than I am. Or something else.
17
Very few people go through the day prepared to be assaulted by a stranger. The recent assassinations of police officers here in the U.S. has proven that even the most well-trained individuals, whose job regularly puts them in jeopardy, cannot survive a senseless random attack. One would think that the Israelis, who stole the homes and land of their assailants, should have some sense of the danger they live under. And, not for nothing, a lack of "niceness" won't protect you from a knife in the back, it may even provoke a not-so-random attack...
Alas, the latest violence in Israel is a cancer which will only grow until the Israeli leaders somehow rid themselves of the delusion that one can keep a whole people stateless. The new generation of Palestinians "aren't going to take it any more".
13
This is where the violence comes from. No mention of statehood. It is about hatred pure and simple and will not stop with borders.
http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/5098.htm
http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/5098.htm
4
I am no fan of Netanyahu, nor settlements, nor brutalizing Palestinians. But I am nonplussed by those who believe there has never been any choice for the Arabs other than terrorism, and who say, "Give the Palestinians a state," as if that had never occurred to anyone, nor been offered and repeatedly refused by Palestinian leaders.
Those familiar with historical facts knows that Arab dwellers in the region they had shared with Jews since the fall of the 2nd Temple (please check the history books for an accurate date for their assuming the title "Palestinians") have since at least 1917 refused all offers of a Palestinian state --a state which had never historically existed.
Motivated by an apparently inextinguishable and increasingly fruitless and unrealistic desire to occupy all the land from Jordan to the sea, and to expel any Jewish presence there, Palestinian leaders have waged war against Israel from the start, aided and abetted by their more powerful Arab neighbors. The crushing defeat of 1967 and subsequent peace treaties between Israel and Egypt and Jordan mark the beginning of today's terrible situation, in which Palestinians continue to lose much of the territory they were offered in 1948, and their only military force is terrorism.
The faux generous single-state solution for both Jews and Muslim Arabs is unrealistic, as it would mean the dissolution of the Jewish state and the evolution, in a couple of generations, of another Arab Muslim majority state.
Those familiar with historical facts knows that Arab dwellers in the region they had shared with Jews since the fall of the 2nd Temple (please check the history books for an accurate date for their assuming the title "Palestinians") have since at least 1917 refused all offers of a Palestinian state --a state which had never historically existed.
Motivated by an apparently inextinguishable and increasingly fruitless and unrealistic desire to occupy all the land from Jordan to the sea, and to expel any Jewish presence there, Palestinian leaders have waged war against Israel from the start, aided and abetted by their more powerful Arab neighbors. The crushing defeat of 1967 and subsequent peace treaties between Israel and Egypt and Jordan mark the beginning of today's terrible situation, in which Palestinians continue to lose much of the territory they were offered in 1948, and their only military force is terrorism.
The faux generous single-state solution for both Jews and Muslim Arabs is unrealistic, as it would mean the dissolution of the Jewish state and the evolution, in a couple of generations, of another Arab Muslim majority state.
20
Yes, Ms. Ben Zichri, you should be able to walk freely, but so should Palestinians. Freedom isn't just for one side.
14
From the NY Times public editor, on conflict of interest, of Ms Kershner when reporting from Israel:
"And the third is the coverage of Israel by Isabel Kershner, a Times contract writer (not a staff member). She is married to Hirsh Goodman, whose strong views on Israeli politics are well known. Their relationship was not disclosed in the Op-Ed piece, nor has it been in the context of her articles. Some readers have told me they object to that and, what’s more, that the relationship makes them question Ms. Kershner’s ability to report fairly. -
Mr. Kerhsner is a spin doctor for the Israeli Military. The NY Times does not see Ms Kerhsner's relationship as a conflict of interest, and under normal circumstances this would be correct.
But the reporting on Israel is not normal circumstances. And today's column by Ms. Kershner that leaves out the extensive history of attacks by Israeli on Palestinians, is far from being balanced.
The Times might reconsider its position.
http://maxblumenthal.com/2012/05/another-major-conflict-of-interest-for-...
"And the third is the coverage of Israel by Isabel Kershner, a Times contract writer (not a staff member). She is married to Hirsh Goodman, whose strong views on Israeli politics are well known. Their relationship was not disclosed in the Op-Ed piece, nor has it been in the context of her articles. Some readers have told me they object to that and, what’s more, that the relationship makes them question Ms. Kershner’s ability to report fairly. -
Mr. Kerhsner is a spin doctor for the Israeli Military. The NY Times does not see Ms Kerhsner's relationship as a conflict of interest, and under normal circumstances this would be correct.
But the reporting on Israel is not normal circumstances. And today's column by Ms. Kershner that leaves out the extensive history of attacks by Israeli on Palestinians, is far from being balanced.
The Times might reconsider its position.
http://maxblumenthal.com/2012/05/another-major-conflict-of-interest-for-...
20
Strange that a building of any sort is used to incite violence against humans - that is the opposite of any Creator's intention, however you define the Universal Consciousness.
Strange that attacks on unarmed civilians are used to get media attention that only encourages more violence against the innocent.
Strange that limiting access between people through a curfew, and further causing division and suspicion, is needed to protect lives.
Strange that those who feel "oppressed" by a government that has tried to help them remain there, and have not migrated elsewhere - when migration is happening all over the area.
Strange that the woman who tried to kill the police officer with a car bomb will survive, due to the medical attention provided by the very ones she has been taught to hate.
So strange.
Strange that attacks on unarmed civilians are used to get media attention that only encourages more violence against the innocent.
Strange that limiting access between people through a curfew, and further causing division and suspicion, is needed to protect lives.
Strange that those who feel "oppressed" by a government that has tried to help them remain there, and have not migrated elsewhere - when migration is happening all over the area.
Strange that the woman who tried to kill the police officer with a car bomb will survive, due to the medical attention provided by the very ones she has been taught to hate.
So strange.
24
Strange, (or perhaps really not so strange, as this is a common enough feature of humans), but grim nonetheless, to build your country on religious fantasy, ethnic cleansing, government land grabs, military occupation, bargaining in bad faith, keeping over a million people in an open air prison, apartheid based domestic policies, and above all the principle of might makes right. Over time, fanatics and the delusional have a way of finding each other. They must work out their issues together sooner or later.
1
After Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin was assassinated, the chances and paths to peace degraded, and continue to elude.
On the one hand, the extremist govt. of Netanyahu continues with provocation over settler and settlement formations, which can only be seen as hurting and denying any chance for peace in the near term. Israel evacuated 9,000 Jewish residents from Gaza when they traded the land for a supposed peace. The evictions roiled Israel. Now, with settlements in the 100,000 range, how will settlements ever be dismantled if peace negotiations were somehow, unexpectedly, renewed?
They won't be, not anytime soon.
On the other side, Palestinians rationalize the worst violent behaviors, killing children in Kibbutz and homes and glorifying crazy acts of violence, such as cars driven into pedestrians, as "heroic run-down operations." Heroic run-down operations? Sounds like a skit for a comedy, not a serious people with serious political intentions.
Interviewed, and asked about these acts of violence and brutality, Palestinians immediately pivot to a quick run down their list of grievances, concluding they are fully justified as an oppressed people. "Rockets fired randomly into Israel? What's the big deal, huh? Just look at what they do to us, occupying and blah, blah, blah.... so we can slaughter any one we want." Just more rationalizing.
Humans are auspicious at rationalizing behavior.
On the one hand, the extremist govt. of Netanyahu continues with provocation over settler and settlement formations, which can only be seen as hurting and denying any chance for peace in the near term. Israel evacuated 9,000 Jewish residents from Gaza when they traded the land for a supposed peace. The evictions roiled Israel. Now, with settlements in the 100,000 range, how will settlements ever be dismantled if peace negotiations were somehow, unexpectedly, renewed?
They won't be, not anytime soon.
On the other side, Palestinians rationalize the worst violent behaviors, killing children in Kibbutz and homes and glorifying crazy acts of violence, such as cars driven into pedestrians, as "heroic run-down operations." Heroic run-down operations? Sounds like a skit for a comedy, not a serious people with serious political intentions.
Interviewed, and asked about these acts of violence and brutality, Palestinians immediately pivot to a quick run down their list of grievances, concluding they are fully justified as an oppressed people. "Rockets fired randomly into Israel? What's the big deal, huh? Just look at what they do to us, occupying and blah, blah, blah.... so we can slaughter any one we want." Just more rationalizing.
Humans are auspicious at rationalizing behavior.
11
"Now, with settlements in the 100,000 range" - Richard, sadly it's more like 380,000 settlers living in the occupied land. Then there's what's been estimated as 200,000 Israelis living on confiscated land in East Jerusalem. So you're roughly
a half million off. It adds up.
a half million off. It adds up.
1
Men have destroyed the world for years. It's time for woman to take over and fix it. The Pope said last year that we are in the beginning stages of WW3. Seems like every week we get a bit closer. Is this what we all want for our grandchildren? People are crying out for help and all we can do is send weaponry. For the first time in my somewhat long life, I am losing hope for mankind and our beautiful planet.
6
The world is suffering from terribly leadership, and that is the case also in Israel and in the Palestinian territories. Look to Europe and you see panic regarding the war-torn immigrants. Look at the US and Russia--involved in a proxy war, which is okay because it is not fought on their streets. Look in the US and innocent people are being shot down and the majority shrugs. From what I know if this situation I believe the constant construction of new settlements is a threat to a people who have not been able to call any place home for a long time. Does this justify violence? No. Never. But the guys with all the power need to be man enough to sit down at the table with those who are powerless. It is they who have the responsibility of creating the peace. If not, then the people need to stand up peacefully, not armed to the teeth to kill each other as Netanyahu proposes. What type of a society would that create?
12
Those who sympathize with the Palestinians watch videos online which only show half the story. You will see a video of a bleeding Palestinian boy, but the video does not show that he first stabbed people to death. There is never an excuse for an imam who preach for children to go out to the streets with knives and attack people walking in the streets. The Palestinians have the same mentality as ISIS, Revolutionary Guard, Hezbollah, Taliban, Al Qaida, ETC. Keep in mind, they hate Americans too.
53
Sorry, but I'm always going to sympathize with "a bleeding child" over an Israeli tank every time.
7
Sounds like a perfect place for Donald Trump.
Tha Palestinians always do the wrong thing so they get Netanyahu who just keeps building settlements. The Donald could just send all the Palestinians to Syria since plenty of land available now.
It really does seem that the Arabs are totally incapable of running a country - maybe a couple blocks with the same families,
No win in Middle East - I hope Israel can figure this out - bad neighborhood for getting along.
Tha Palestinians always do the wrong thing so they get Netanyahu who just keeps building settlements. The Donald could just send all the Palestinians to Syria since plenty of land available now.
It really does seem that the Arabs are totally incapable of running a country - maybe a couple blocks with the same families,
No win in Middle East - I hope Israel can figure this out - bad neighborhood for getting along.
1
They should hate the US government, given that we subsidize the Israelis as they practice apartheid and help supply them with weapons which Israel uses to kill children in the hundreds.
I'm afraid at this point, after years of feeling differently, that the Palestinians must make an attempt to be stoic in the face of Israeli repression. If they could just refrain from violence for maybe six months, perhaps there could be some progress, or at least they would have something to brandish with the international community. In the past I've thought that the Israelis, better off and better armed, should be "the bigger person." But I think they're unlikely to take the high ground any time soon, and so the responsibility, once again and par for the course, falls to the oppressed to rise above their awful circumstances.
9
It seems your preference is for the beatings to continue until moral improves. That's not realistic. And, let's be clear, "the Palestinians" didn't stab anyone. From all reports, these are uncoordinated and spontaneous attacks, which have been met with coordinated, government sanctioned and disproportionate force. This is the reality of occupation.
It would seem that both sides have devolved to a solution that involves violence. As I remember the historical reasons for the American Civil War a quote comes to mind: "it was because we hated each other so."
"God" help us all.
"God" help us all.
2
When the Palestinian Arabs finally learn how to act in a civilized way, they can be considered worthy of having a state of their own. As long as they continue to behave as they do now, they'll only suffer the consequences of their actions.
35
That's what they said to the Native American Tribes as well, and look, they finally got their casinos.
2
Americans demonstrate just the opposite of what you say.
Israelis seem to agree with Ben Carson: 1) If German Jews had guns in the 1930s, perhaps the Holocaust could have been avoided. Israelis seem to agree that an armed citizenry can quash terroristic threats. 2) When faced with an armed terrorist, take the attacker down at all costs. In light of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, perhaps Carson isn't cuckoo after all.
7
The PLO (Palestinian Liberation Organization) was founded in 1964, three years before the so called 'occupation' robbed these Arabs from their 'freedom', if there ever was one under Jordanian and Egyptian rule. The notion that this violence has anything to do with 'occupation' is baseless.
The Arabs opposed Jewish self determination in this part of the Levant since the start of the 20th century, with periodic episodes of murderous violence before the creation of the state of Israel in 1921, 1927 and 1936, before the occupation of the west bank and Gaza in 1948 and 1967 and after the occupation in 1973, 1981, 1987, 1991, 2000 and so on.
Arab violence against the Jewish national movement is a fact of life, and will not cede or alter if Israel withdraw or gain more territory, as there is no territorial aspect to this conflict. It is purely about whether the Jews have a right to self determination in their homeland.
For Israel there are only two alternatives to the question of its standing in the Mid East : peace or elimination. Since peace, according to the 'Palestinians', requires the eradication of Jewish self rule, there is but one route left which is continued conflict until the Arabs change their mindset.
The Arabs opposed Jewish self determination in this part of the Levant since the start of the 20th century, with periodic episodes of murderous violence before the creation of the state of Israel in 1921, 1927 and 1936, before the occupation of the west bank and Gaza in 1948 and 1967 and after the occupation in 1973, 1981, 1987, 1991, 2000 and so on.
Arab violence against the Jewish national movement is a fact of life, and will not cede or alter if Israel withdraw or gain more territory, as there is no territorial aspect to this conflict. It is purely about whether the Jews have a right to self determination in their homeland.
For Israel there are only two alternatives to the question of its standing in the Mid East : peace or elimination. Since peace, according to the 'Palestinians', requires the eradication of Jewish self rule, there is but one route left which is continued conflict until the Arabs change their mindset.
32
And when Jordan ruled East Jerusalem and the West Bank, where was the resistance from this supposed Palestinian nation then against that occupation of their supposedly sacred Palestinian land? In fact the PLO charter in writing specifically acknowledged Jordanian sovereignty over the West Bank and East Jerusalem not amended until 1984.
17
... or until they are all dead?
3
"For Israel there are only two alternatives to the question of its standing in the Mid East : peace or elimination
Does elimination mean the destruction of Israel or the elimination of all Palastinians or even all Arabs?
Does elimination mean the destruction of Israel or the elimination of all Palastinians or even all Arabs?
So no mention of the almost 30 Palestinians who died this week? Is there only one side to this story?
32
What? Almost no mention of the gunman who killed 10 people at Umpqua Community College in Oregon either? Is there only one side to that story, too?
9
Although it clearly felt good to type your response (JW) and to the 6 people who recommend it, it must have felt good to read, the simple fact is there is no connection between the one gunman killed in Oregon and the "30 dead Palestinians" mentioned in the above comment. It simply doesn't translate. The point being made by KASNE is that innocent Palestinians die all the time yet don't get the same media attention. To compare them to a deranged gunman, only further discounts their dignity and humanity, This solves nothing.
the 30 who participated in attacking Jewish civilians and soldiers? Many tried getting the soldier's weapons to kill more people
1
When will the Palestinian leadership sit down and negotiate a peaceful settlement? For all those who justify these terrorist acts, how can Israel make peace when the Palestinian leadership will not accept one of the multiple peace plans they have been offered over the years nor will they offer a plan of their own. Of course the Palestinians are frustrated, but what does their leadership do besides give speeches and hold press conferences. Negotiate!
23
The comments from many of the readers indicating justification of the attacks by the Palestinians for this reason or that is alarming and frightening. The corrupt and evil Palestinian leadership along with Hamas keep its citizens in intentional misery and preach hatred and death. The stupidity of the comments on this article make me very depressed and thank God Israel is a strong force that can defend itself.
32
Funny how the Posters here bemoan the "brutal occupation" of Judea and Samaria, but seem to suffer from amnesia that the Arabs controlled the same territory until 1948 and did nothing with it except launch terror attacks to finish off the rest of the Jews, or that Gaza is "free" now to import ever more Iranian rockets.
Funny how the Posters here decry Netanyahu's "settler government" but have nary a word for Hamas's Islamic fascism or the Iranian Islamic fascist money flowing into Hamas, and no word for an Arab culture which glorifies the "Shahid" and, as an Arab Imam did yesterday, calls for " cutting up Jews into body parts" (the Imam did not even have the courtesy to cover up his Jew hatred, like in the West, with the word "Israeli").
Funny how the Times and the UN and the Posters here decry the "cycle of violence" when the Arabs use the Al Aqsa mosque as a pretext to martyrdom ala ISIS. Somehow, when ISIS kills Americans, the American lethal response is approved by all Americans except Michael Moore, who would prefer to kill them with a boring movie.
Funny how the American Left rallies to remove Confederate symbols in a frantic effort for "racial healing," but has nothing to say when the Islamic Waqf on the Temple Mount insists that its symbols of Muslim conquest and subjugation of the site holiest to Jews cannot tolerate Jews praying at the site, because, well, they are Jews, no coexistence required.
Am Yisrael Chai.
Funny how the Posters here decry Netanyahu's "settler government" but have nary a word for Hamas's Islamic fascism or the Iranian Islamic fascist money flowing into Hamas, and no word for an Arab culture which glorifies the "Shahid" and, as an Arab Imam did yesterday, calls for " cutting up Jews into body parts" (the Imam did not even have the courtesy to cover up his Jew hatred, like in the West, with the word "Israeli").
Funny how the Times and the UN and the Posters here decry the "cycle of violence" when the Arabs use the Al Aqsa mosque as a pretext to martyrdom ala ISIS. Somehow, when ISIS kills Americans, the American lethal response is approved by all Americans except Michael Moore, who would prefer to kill them with a boring movie.
Funny how the American Left rallies to remove Confederate symbols in a frantic effort for "racial healing," but has nothing to say when the Islamic Waqf on the Temple Mount insists that its symbols of Muslim conquest and subjugation of the site holiest to Jews cannot tolerate Jews praying at the site, because, well, they are Jews, no coexistence required.
Am Yisrael Chai.
62
Israel must stop treating its Palestinian populatoin as a conquered people who do not have the civil rights of its own citizens.
26
They vote and hold office and own property do not have to serve in the army. What civil rights are you referring to?
27
Uhm, you are talking about Arabs in Israel - not in the West Bank. Those in the West Bank are second class people.
1
@Sequel Boston
You seem to lack some precision when speaking of Israel's "Palestinian population"
I believe you are confusing Arab-Israelis, or Israeli Arabs or Palestinian Israelis (all of whom are citizens of Israel, with full voting and other civil rights) with citizens of Gaza (no longer part of Israel) and the West Bank (like Gaza, part of the Palestinian territories, some of which is in dispute and increasingly encroached upon by Jewish Israeli "settlers")
Most of the Arabs living in East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights, occupied by Israel in the Six-Day War of 1967 and later annexed, were offered Israeli citizenship, but most have refused, not wanting to recognize Israel's claim to sovereignty. They became permanent residents instead. They have the right to apply for citizenship, are entitled to municipal services, and have municipal voting rights.
You should also note that there is no historical record of Arab Israelis giving up their Israeli citizenship to emigrate to Arab/Muslim countries -- though they are and always have been free to leave for greener pastures.
You seem to lack some precision when speaking of Israel's "Palestinian population"
I believe you are confusing Arab-Israelis, or Israeli Arabs or Palestinian Israelis (all of whom are citizens of Israel, with full voting and other civil rights) with citizens of Gaza (no longer part of Israel) and the West Bank (like Gaza, part of the Palestinian territories, some of which is in dispute and increasingly encroached upon by Jewish Israeli "settlers")
Most of the Arabs living in East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights, occupied by Israel in the Six-Day War of 1967 and later annexed, were offered Israeli citizenship, but most have refused, not wanting to recognize Israel's claim to sovereignty. They became permanent residents instead. They have the right to apply for citizenship, are entitled to municipal services, and have municipal voting rights.
You should also note that there is no historical record of Arab Israelis giving up their Israeli citizenship to emigrate to Arab/Muslim countries -- though they are and always have been free to leave for greener pastures.
4
Once again, Israelis and Palestinians act irrationally and point fingers.
6
No one is justifying violence from either side but Netanyahu's approach of not solving the problem of occupation and in fact expanding it by additional settlements is very counter-productive. It should not take a genius to figure this one out.
Give the Palestinians a homeland. Quit treating them like animals. Respect their lives and they will respect yours.
Give the Palestinians a homeland. Quit treating them like animals. Respect their lives and they will respect yours.
23
They haven't accepted the first several homelands they were offered (Jordan, the several past proposed partitions of Israeli controlled territory, devolution of control of most of the West Bank to the Palestinian authority, Israeli withdrawal from Gaza, etc.). They've turned the infrastructure and greenhouses of Gaza into a slum used as a terror base. Ball's in their court.
27
This might work if Palestinians stopped treating Jews like animals. Study your history. The Palestinians have been offered statehood many times, but have refused the offers. Pure and simple, they want Jews out of Israel. Until then, no homeland for us. Their hatred of Jews super cedes any thought of a homeland. Allah forbid!
Really! I've noticed how well that is working among their kinsmen in Kuwait, Syria, Iraq, Turkey..... it works really well in Europe too, Bali, Australia... yes, give them everything they want and they will suddenly become a peaceful loving people.
Israel, as the entity with the most power in this situation, must make a choice. It must choose whether it is going to be a religiously-driven republic, like Rome was after Constantine, or whether it is going to be a true democracy which allows full citizenship rights (on paper and in action) for its Arab population. It cannot have both. The unstated Israeli goal that Palestinians will simply leave and be taken in by other Arab countries has not and will not happen. If theocratic republic is the answer, then Israel must cut ties to the U.S. and rest of the Western world. If true democracy is its goal, then the Palestinians need full citizenship rights and economic liberty. Many modern nations have grappled with the same problem, and they have usually chosen the democracy route.
20
Israeli Arabs, living in Israel have the same full citizen rights as any other group living in Israel, they even have members in the Knesset, the governing body.
A question: Can you name an Islamic country where Jews have the same rights?
I can't.
A question: Can you name an Islamic country where Jews have the same rights?
I can't.
23
@JS
Is there a "theocratic republic" which has been forced to "cut ties to the U.S. and the rest of the Western world"? Israel isn't a theocracy, but why would a theocracy need to be thus isolated?
Is there even such a thing as a "theocratic republic"? If you meant "theocracy" (a state based on a state religion with the head of state selected by a religious hierarchy), only one exists, Vatican City, and it has strong ties to the US and the West.
If by "theocracy" you mean a state based on religious law, there are many, mainly Muslim states, which also have strong political and financial ties to the U.S and Western democracies.
Israel is not one of these: Talmudic law is not Sharia, most Israelis are not religious, and mainly, Israeli civil and religious laws are completely separate.
And to whom were you referring as the "many modern nations which have grappled with the same problem and chosen the democracy route," unless you deem the Arab Spring a great success?
Perhaps it is simply pleasing to solve the problem of Palestinian intransigence and frequent Israeli brutality by diluting Israel's "Jewishness"? We should look to our own US tradition of racism and second-class citizenship, to Baltimore and Ferguson, before deciding that Israel must be an outcast nation.
If the goal is to dilute the Jewishness of Israel, your opening proposal makes sense. Otherwise, you are confusing Arab-Israeli citizens with Palestinians who deny the right of Israel to exist.
Is there a "theocratic republic" which has been forced to "cut ties to the U.S. and the rest of the Western world"? Israel isn't a theocracy, but why would a theocracy need to be thus isolated?
Is there even such a thing as a "theocratic republic"? If you meant "theocracy" (a state based on a state religion with the head of state selected by a religious hierarchy), only one exists, Vatican City, and it has strong ties to the US and the West.
If by "theocracy" you mean a state based on religious law, there are many, mainly Muslim states, which also have strong political and financial ties to the U.S and Western democracies.
Israel is not one of these: Talmudic law is not Sharia, most Israelis are not religious, and mainly, Israeli civil and religious laws are completely separate.
And to whom were you referring as the "many modern nations which have grappled with the same problem and chosen the democracy route," unless you deem the Arab Spring a great success?
Perhaps it is simply pleasing to solve the problem of Palestinian intransigence and frequent Israeli brutality by diluting Israel's "Jewishness"? We should look to our own US tradition of racism and second-class citizenship, to Baltimore and Ferguson, before deciding that Israel must be an outcast nation.
If the goal is to dilute the Jewishness of Israel, your opening proposal makes sense. Otherwise, you are confusing Arab-Israeli citizens with Palestinians who deny the right of Israel to exist.
1
You have no problem with the Islamic states surrounding Israel? Only the Jewish state must be secular?
1
This reminds me of "The Troubles" in Northern Ireland that were finally stopped by "The Good Friday Agreement" in 1998 with help from America. We have tried to help Israel negotiate a fair settlement with the Palestinians, but I guess more blood must flow until everyone is disgusted about what is going on and want to settle. It took quite a bit of suffering in Northern Ireland before everyone wanted to settle.
20
Remember the Camp David Accords that Arafat refused to sign, accords that gave him 95$ of what he wanted. He refused to make any counter offer, but just left, knowing that he would be at the wrong end of a gun when he returned.
I disagree. The so-called troubles in Ireland are hardly solved. It is like a simmering pot poised to bubble over at the slightest increase in temperature. The wounds run deep. Where the two political situations in Israel/Palestine and Ireland/Northern Ireland share commonality is the displacement of people at the hands of a stronger power. The settlers that lay claim to Palestinian lands will soon resemble the residents of the northern counties claim. They have become the so-called people of the land and get to vote on their destiny. The simple fact that they had no right to claim the land in the first place is something they hope time will erase. And it will...
The two state solution should not be a Jewish state and a Palestinian state. Instead, the two state solution should be a state for people who want peace and another state for people who want to keep fighting.
5
Sounds like a Jewish state and a Palestinian state.
10
It is preposterous that, in its letter to the UN Security Council, the Palestinian Authority refers to Palestinian attackers as "innocent lives lost" and refers to Israeli action to stop the individual attackers from continuing their attacks on Israeli civilian men, women and children as "violations [that] should trigger immediate action by the international community."
If anyone needs international support and protection, it is Israel. Only when the PA ceases to incite its citizens to violence and focuses, instead, on civility and cooperation can there truly be a lasting peace.
If anyone needs international support and protection, it is Israel. Only when the PA ceases to incite its citizens to violence and focuses, instead, on civility and cooperation can there truly be a lasting peace.
25
Israel is playing with fire because it handles these crises extremely poorly. Even if Israeli actions are justified - which I believe they are NOT - at some point someone has to cotton onto the fact that they are just angering Palestinians even more.
Israel might have nuclear bombs, but the Palestinians have their own nuke - if they finally give up on the two state solution that means one state solution. One state without resolving anything. Half the country will be Arab, the economy will take a nose dive as it absorbs Palestinian ghettos, and the new Arab lawmakers will vote to allow ALL Palestinian refugees the right of return (a right currently afforded to any person who can prove he/she is a Jew) - making the country even poorer and more Arab. A lot of Israeli Jews won't like that and they will leave, making it even poorer and more Arab.
Israel cannot have its cake and eat it too. It will cease to exist if it does not get the two-state solution to work. Having more guns and bullets is no longer important, now the Palestinians have all the power and Israel needs to make concessions to them if it wants a settlement.
Israel might have nuclear bombs, but the Palestinians have their own nuke - if they finally give up on the two state solution that means one state solution. One state without resolving anything. Half the country will be Arab, the economy will take a nose dive as it absorbs Palestinian ghettos, and the new Arab lawmakers will vote to allow ALL Palestinian refugees the right of return (a right currently afforded to any person who can prove he/she is a Jew) - making the country even poorer and more Arab. A lot of Israeli Jews won't like that and they will leave, making it even poorer and more Arab.
Israel cannot have its cake and eat it too. It will cease to exist if it does not get the two-state solution to work. Having more guns and bullets is no longer important, now the Palestinians have all the power and Israel needs to make concessions to them if it wants a settlement.
12
@Jamil simaan
When have the Palestinians ever been serious about anything but a one-state solution, meaning the destruction of Israel and their extension of rule and occupancy to all the land between the Jordan and the Mediterranean sea? Please name one peace proposal, one conference, one opportunity in which they have bargained in good faith? Bibi and his right wing henchmen are all wrong, but they will soon be gone, and in any case, it has never been Israel's choice to "get" a two-state solution. Rather, it has always been up to the Palestinians to choose peace and two states.
Now that the armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon are no longer at the beck and call of the Palestinian "cause", what will enable the remaining, heavily propagandized and manipulated Palestinian Arabs to end the existence of Israel? Knives, rocks, suicide vests?
Your second paragraph does nothing to undermine Israel, but rather demonstrates that what the world, and the Middle East in particulas does not need is another poor, uneducated, uproductive Arab nation living in the pre-modern age.
And be careful what you wish for: Israel, tiny as it is, is disproportionately represented in its world class achievements in science, medicine, technology, art, climate and agricultural science.
When have the Palestinians ever been serious about anything but a one-state solution, meaning the destruction of Israel and their extension of rule and occupancy to all the land between the Jordan and the Mediterranean sea? Please name one peace proposal, one conference, one opportunity in which they have bargained in good faith? Bibi and his right wing henchmen are all wrong, but they will soon be gone, and in any case, it has never been Israel's choice to "get" a two-state solution. Rather, it has always been up to the Palestinians to choose peace and two states.
Now that the armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon are no longer at the beck and call of the Palestinian "cause", what will enable the remaining, heavily propagandized and manipulated Palestinian Arabs to end the existence of Israel? Knives, rocks, suicide vests?
Your second paragraph does nothing to undermine Israel, but rather demonstrates that what the world, and the Middle East in particulas does not need is another poor, uneducated, uproductive Arab nation living in the pre-modern age.
And be careful what you wish for: Israel, tiny as it is, is disproportionately represented in its world class achievements in science, medicine, technology, art, climate and agricultural science.
4
@CRose. If you think Israel is so amazing, why don't you invite them over? It would solve both of our problems. You can give them Arkansas. There are only poor, uneducated, and unproductive people, so no loss.
I don't wish for Israel to disappear. I wish for a world where millions of people are not shoved into ghettos because they are too poor and uneducated to be of values to others. What the Middle East needs are countries that treat their people well - even if they are poor, uneducated, and unproductive.
I love my people, and I don't care how useless they are to the world, I want a better future for them - and NOT at the expense of Jews or anybody else.
I don't wish for Israel to disappear. I wish for a world where millions of people are not shoved into ghettos because they are too poor and uneducated to be of values to others. What the Middle East needs are countries that treat their people well - even if they are poor, uneducated, and unproductive.
I love my people, and I don't care how useless they are to the world, I want a better future for them - and NOT at the expense of Jews or anybody else.
It's sick reading all of these comments defending the perpetrators, either directly or in a roundabout way. No one has a "right" to go out on the street and start stabbing civilians as they go about their daily tasks. And it's not the responsibility of every article to re-hash the entire history of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict since 1967 in order to present a 'balanced' view of things. The fact is that the media has been silent while Palestinians have been waiting in groups to throw stones (not pebbles) at Jews coming to pray at the temple mount long before any of this escalated, and the terrorists are now being incited to further violence by their Imams who are lying to them by saying that Israel is trying to take Al Aqsa mosque away from them. And don't think the Palestinian leadership tries to do anything about it. Please visit Israel and see for yourself - but it's easier to type self-righteous comments from the comfort of your safe neighborhoods.
42
Violence of any sort is deplorable and regrettable. How Israeli choses to deal with it after having used so much of it to take the territory of another people is challenging.
It seems that the best it could do is withdraw from the West Bank, desist from locking down Gaza, offer reparations including a partial 'right of return' and more humbly negotiate a peace with it. The worst it could do toughen up and kill dozens of scores of more innocents .... and pay reparations for that. Why? Because it will never, never get peace any other way.
The development of permanent jihad in the ME, at least to the extent it involves non-Islamic people, can be traced to the West's role in the violent creation of its European colony. You can follow the thread of imperialism from 1900 right through 2015 and earmark each episode of externals imposing boundaries and rulers on internal places and peoples. Jihad comes from that, in my humble opinion.
It seems that the best it could do is withdraw from the West Bank, desist from locking down Gaza, offer reparations including a partial 'right of return' and more humbly negotiate a peace with it. The worst it could do toughen up and kill dozens of scores of more innocents .... and pay reparations for that. Why? Because it will never, never get peace any other way.
The development of permanent jihad in the ME, at least to the extent it involves non-Islamic people, can be traced to the West's role in the violent creation of its European colony. You can follow the thread of imperialism from 1900 right through 2015 and earmark each episode of externals imposing boundaries and rulers on internal places and peoples. Jihad comes from that, in my humble opinion.
14
The Palestinians have consistently refused to recognize Israel as a Jewish state while insisting that it recognize it as a Palestinian state. Their representatives have rejected every single land offer made by Israel even when it approximated 95%+ of their demands. They have never offered anything in response to these offers from Israel.
They continue to perpetuate the myth that the Temple Mount, the site of the First and Second Jewish Temples and the most holy Jewish site in the world, as mentioned at length in the Old Testament ( which predates the Koran and Islam by many centuries), is Muslim.
Israel has forbidden Jewish worship there and even with this the Palestinians are upset.
At this point, as in the past, they are doing little to improve the lives of their own people.
Their only response to everything is that the perfidious Jews are once again responsible for all of their own problems.
At a certain point, like now, the rest of the world gets tired of the same broken record from the Palestinians and their few remaining allies.
They will once again face renewed actions from Israel to defend itself and they have no one but themselves to blame.
They continue to perpetuate the myth that the Temple Mount, the site of the First and Second Jewish Temples and the most holy Jewish site in the world, as mentioned at length in the Old Testament ( which predates the Koran and Islam by many centuries), is Muslim.
Israel has forbidden Jewish worship there and even with this the Palestinians are upset.
At this point, as in the past, they are doing little to improve the lives of their own people.
Their only response to everything is that the perfidious Jews are once again responsible for all of their own problems.
At a certain point, like now, the rest of the world gets tired of the same broken record from the Palestinians and their few remaining allies.
They will once again face renewed actions from Israel to defend itself and they have no one but themselves to blame.
36
the state of Israel kicked out over a million Palestinians over 50 years ago. I too, would demand being recognized first before i were to reciprocate, if that were to happen to me.
9
Simon, you take the Bible literally?
1
@ Lou Rose
Not sure Israel "kicked out" over a million Palestinians over 50 years ago (it was actually nearly 70 years ago, before there was a state of Israel, but why even try to be accurate on this issue?) Histories on both sides say 500,000 or maybe 700,000 Palestinian Arabs fled, urged by the big Arab states to think the Jews would be pushed into the sea in a matter of months, at which point they could return. And let's not forget that there never was a "Palestine" ruled by Arabs. (Please just google, don't bother to study and think)
But in comparison to 50 or 60 million or more who were made refugees by the cataclysmic events of the 1930s and 1940s, how is it that only this little number of Arabs and their descendants have refused repatriation, and many still live in refugee camps?
As one whose family history includes being "kicked out of" or fleeing from a few countries, I am angry at Netanyahu's tough guy tactics, but I am less sympathetic to people who have settled for living permanently in camps on the grounds of unrealistic wishes and propaganda.
I would really love to reclaim my grandfather's house in Warsaw (bombed to rubble) or the apartment in Budapest where my great grandmother was born. I wish dozens of relatives who disappeared in the Holocaust had lived to be more than dead leaves on Ancestry.com. But I am grateful for those who survived and realized they had no choice but to start new, fresh lives elsewhere.
Palestinians could learn something here.
Not sure Israel "kicked out" over a million Palestinians over 50 years ago (it was actually nearly 70 years ago, before there was a state of Israel, but why even try to be accurate on this issue?) Histories on both sides say 500,000 or maybe 700,000 Palestinian Arabs fled, urged by the big Arab states to think the Jews would be pushed into the sea in a matter of months, at which point they could return. And let's not forget that there never was a "Palestine" ruled by Arabs. (Please just google, don't bother to study and think)
But in comparison to 50 or 60 million or more who were made refugees by the cataclysmic events of the 1930s and 1940s, how is it that only this little number of Arabs and their descendants have refused repatriation, and many still live in refugee camps?
As one whose family history includes being "kicked out of" or fleeing from a few countries, I am angry at Netanyahu's tough guy tactics, but I am less sympathetic to people who have settled for living permanently in camps on the grounds of unrealistic wishes and propaganda.
I would really love to reclaim my grandfather's house in Warsaw (bombed to rubble) or the apartment in Budapest where my great grandmother was born. I wish dozens of relatives who disappeared in the Holocaust had lived to be more than dead leaves on Ancestry.com. But I am grateful for those who survived and realized they had no choice but to start new, fresh lives elsewhere.
Palestinians could learn something here.
5
Quite right; there should be background in the story to make clear that these attacks did not just come out of the blue.
The only thing that will stop this tide is a prolonged period of non-violence and non-provocation scrupulously observed on both sides.
It's not a likely outcome. Too much history, too much anger in the air, too much ingrained belligerence on both sides.
But if they can't preserve a basic peace, there will never be meaningful talks and belligerence will rule.
The only thing that will stop this tide is a prolonged period of non-violence and non-provocation scrupulously observed on both sides.
It's not a likely outcome. Too much history, too much anger in the air, too much ingrained belligerence on both sides.
But if they can't preserve a basic peace, there will never be meaningful talks and belligerence will rule.
3
Why is there no mention in the article of Israel's almost 49 year bruta; occupation of the West Bank? Why is there no mention of the many settlements, all illegal under international law, that Israel has built throughout much of the West Bank? Why is there no mention of the brutality that Israel has meted out to the Palestinians since the beginning of the occupation in 1967? Why is there no mention of the many Palestinians who have been gunned down by the Israeli military and police? Why is there no mention of the fact that the Israeli government has not brought to trial the Jewish terrorists who in July burned to death three members of a Palestinian family? Why is there no mention of the fact that the occupied people have every right to resist the occupation?
18
JMBN, are you referring to the Palestinians who were gunned down by police after stabbing Jews for no reason other than the fact that they were Jews?
7
As an American non-Jew, non-Muslim, I stand on the outside of the Israeli-Palestinian dispute. In the big picture, it seems to me that the Palestinians have the better argument. But then they do despicable things like randomly murder innocent civilians -- many of whom are teenagers! -- and their cause is lost to me. Yes, Israel has perpetrated atrocities. But while being indifferent to collateral damage is despicable, it does not rise to the level of murdering civilian children (often sacrificing your own children to do so) as a tactic. I cannot fathom the mindset of the many commentators on here who seem to regard wanton murder as a legitimate way to express any grievance. No grievance warrants this. And so the Palestinians lose the support of the civilized world.
14
This is never just Israel's fault. Netanyahu really deserves much of the blame. Lets agree that Abbas is weak and a liar and much else and Hamas are terrorists. What does Israel what with all the Arabs in the West Bank? Get rid of the West Bank regardless of what Abbas says or does for the good of Israelis.
1
Like it or not, when Israel occupied lands that Palestinians and many others lived in for generations, then these peoples became entitled to be full-fledged citizens of a multicultural Israel and full participants in Israeli society.
For Israelis (and the Palestinians) there is no option other than sharing a multicultural, open, and secular country. The longer that it takes for all of Israeli and Palestinian society to come to grips to these facts, the more terrible the suffering will be.
For Israelis (and the Palestinians) there is no option other than sharing a multicultural, open, and secular country. The longer that it takes for all of Israeli and Palestinian society to come to grips to these facts, the more terrible the suffering will be.
12
That's what YOU want for the Palestinians. Ask them if that's what THEY want. Will you be surprised to hear that they want Israel to disappear?
4
Why don't Americans understand anything about international law, conflict, history? The NYT readers should be the most educated.
When Israel was established it DID give full rights to all of its citizens, regardless of ethnicity.
When it conquered territory from its Arab neighbours in 1967, - from Syria, Egypt, Jordan - because there was no Palestinian state - it wanted to do what EVERY nation has done, sign a peace treaty.
But the Arabs refused. Do you not know that previous wars ended when the parties agreed to terms, almost exclusively of the victor's. Do you not know about the occupations post WW2, that in the 20th century Germany lost a third of its territory etc.
Knowing a few facts and a bit about the rest of the world would help in commenting on, not to mention understanding, the conflict.
When Israel was established it DID give full rights to all of its citizens, regardless of ethnicity.
When it conquered territory from its Arab neighbours in 1967, - from Syria, Egypt, Jordan - because there was no Palestinian state - it wanted to do what EVERY nation has done, sign a peace treaty.
But the Arabs refused. Do you not know that previous wars ended when the parties agreed to terms, almost exclusively of the victor's. Do you not know about the occupations post WW2, that in the 20th century Germany lost a third of its territory etc.
Knowing a few facts and a bit about the rest of the world would help in commenting on, not to mention understanding, the conflict.
1
If Netanyahu et al truly desire peace they should return the land they have stolen from the Arabs and stop building new illegal settlements on Arab owned land. But, in the long run, it matters not. Iran will remedy this problem sooner than some of us might imagine,
8
Gee, you mean the cycle is starting all over again? Even after both sides have done nothing to seek a solution to the same problems they've been dealing with for decades? And after enough blood is shed, maybe the people will demand peace talks...and then we can start the whole process over again.
The unbroken cycle of violence between the Israelis and Palestinians stands as a monument to the failure of leadership on both sides. What particularly struck me was this piece's reference to the "botched revenge" killing by one Israeli of another. Revenge - that most worthless yet dangerous of motives.
7
"Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap."
Gelatians 6:7
Gelatians 6:7
4
In modern lingo, the chickens are coming home to roost. Or what comes around, goes around.
5
Palestinians are going to be faced with many difficult decisions in the days immediately ahead. Which of their rock throwers is going to be honored with a day care center named in his honor? Which knife-wielding teenager is going to get a medical clinic? Which attackers of elderly men on their way to synagogue are going to be rewarded with cushy government jobs and pensions? Will the government give equal treatment in its schoolbooks to its male and female rioters, or will it discriminate in favor of the men. The ways these questions are handled will tell us a lot about the future of the Palestinian cause.
34
Their schoolbooks, if they have any, are funded by the U.N. Their leaders don't waste their precious money on productive things for their citizens.
5
How many children will be blown to smithereens in the next Israeli air assualt on Gaza?
7
Depends on how many are stationed around missile firing posts by their elders, or how many weapons emplacements are co-located with schools.
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8
As usual, so many try to make the claim that it's all Israel's fault without looking at the whole story to understand what really happened. It was a high holiday for the Jews and they were stabbed by Palestinians just for commemorating it. They were told to stop the stabbings and other attacks, but they constantly refused and the IDF soldiers were given no choice but to shoot at them. Was doing such acts really worth their lives? I would say not. As for those talking about the Dome of the Rock with Jews going there, they have to understand that this was originally the site of the Temple Mount that was considered very holy to the Jews and this was long before Islam even existed. Even if the story about Abraham about to sacrifice Issac isn't true, that doesn't change the fact that it was holy site. Another thing is that if the Dome of the Rock is really a holy place for the Muslims, then why are they not facing it when praying but rather at Mecca instead? That doesn't sound if it's a holy place for them, but really nothing more than a victory mosque, plus there was never any found evidence that Mohammed even went there let alone rose to heaven there as the Koran claims. Either way, this doesn't justify Hamas attacking the Jews. I won't be surprised if this is going to be the Third Intifada that they were talking about.
18
You demand recognition for your religion but denigrate and ridicule the religion of the other?
6
Mabraun. The islam practiced by these people is not true islam.
Where exactly have I done that? How about the fact that was once the Temple Mount is now part of the Muslim Quarter and has mosques built over them? That shows how little respect Islam had for holy sites of other religions. Historically, they were known for conquering other areas and placing what was known as victory mosques either by destroying other famous religious sites or just by converting them to such. They even passed such laws that made other groups feel like second class citizens to Islam even though those groups were living there longer. Nevertheless, the Jews do have respect for the Muslims praying at what's there now, but they still feel connected being what was there originally. Keep in mind that nowhere in the Koran is Jerusalem even said to be a holy city for the Muslims despite citing Mecca numerous times, not to mention Muslims don't even face it when praying while the Jews do. Another thing is that there is no historical evidence that Mohammed ever did reach Jerusalem and that he most likely stayed in the Arabian Peninsula the whole time. The only claim is in a passage known as The Starry Night Journey, but even that one is pretty vague. Either way, most Muslims didn't even come to Jerusalem until long after his death, which most likely proves that it wasn't a holy city to them either. Overall, I'm not trying to denigrate or ridicule Islam, I'm just telling you the historical facts about it and this was proven by historians.
1
In 1967, the Israelis decisively defeated Egypt, Jordan, and Syria in the six-day war, and occupied the Sinai peninsula, the Golan Heights, and the West Bank of the Jordan River. Subsequently, the UN passed resolution 242, requesting that they return these territories in exchange for a peace settlement. They returned only the Sinal in the Camp David accords, and made a peace agreement with Egypt. Both countries then became client states of the U.S., which gave each billions of dollars in the ensuing years. The United States recognized Israel as a major military force, accepted their nuclear weapons program, and exempted them from the Nuclear Proliferation.
Since then, Israel has become more aggressive towards the isolated Palestinians, settling the West Bank and creating "facts on the ground".
The Palestinians are frustrated and angry, and are starting a new intafada.
There will be much bloodshed; the ratio of Palestinians to Israelis killed and maimed will be higher than a hundred to one.
Since then, Israel has become more aggressive towards the isolated Palestinians, settling the West Bank and creating "facts on the ground".
The Palestinians are frustrated and angry, and are starting a new intafada.
There will be much bloodshed; the ratio of Palestinians to Israelis killed and maimed will be higher than a hundred to one.
13
And the United States settled Texas.
3
Yes, after annexing it from Mexico. Imperialism is alive and well in the United States as well as Israel.
1
I feel for the Israelis. Westerners keep calling for them to respond rationally to a group of people who will behave irrationally regardless of what the Israelis do. The Palestinians, like everyone else in the Middle East with the exception of Israelis, only know violence, dominance and battle.
By now Westerners should have learned. They always get into trouble when they start ascribing Western values to Middle Easterners. The Palestinians will never behave like Westerners no matter how much Israel accedes to their demands.
By now Westerners should have learned. They always get into trouble when they start ascribing Western values to Middle Easterners. The Palestinians will never behave like Westerners no matter how much Israel accedes to their demands.
33
Do you remember the Israeli terrorists that fire bombed a Palestinian home? both parents and a small child dies. That was months ago. Even though Netanyahu claimed that Israel would work hard to find and prosecute the Israeli Terrorists, nothing has been done. OTOH, within days of a Palestinian Terrorist fare bombed and Israeli home, the suspect was in custody.
Israel is reaping what it has sown. The Palestinians know they will get no justice from Israel. Remember that in the last big Gaza fight, Israel killed over 2000 Palestinian non-combatants while the Hamas rockets killed only 2 non-combatant Israelis. It reminds me of the Warsaw Ghetto.
Israel is reaping what it has sown. The Palestinians know they will get no justice from Israel. Remember that in the last big Gaza fight, Israel killed over 2000 Palestinian non-combatants while the Hamas rockets killed only 2 non-combatant Israelis. It reminds me of the Warsaw Ghetto.
6
"By now Westerners should have learned."
Learn what? To love thieves and oppressors?
Learn what? To love thieves and oppressors?
4
I happen to think a Westerner would act much the same if they had their property stolen, rights taken away, and children bombed in air raids every few years.
12
Arabs rejected statehood in 1937 Peel Commission, 1947 UN Partition, 1967 Khartoum the 3 no's, Camp David, so we know it is not statehood they desire. In Jordan in 1970 Black September (The Jordanian Civil War) 1000's of Palestinians were slaughtered, 200,000 Palestinians were expelled from Kuwait in 1991, They are confined to refugee camps in Lebanon since 1948. victims of the current Syrian Civil war , but they only demonstrate terrorism against Israelis. Arab lands would not tolerate their actions.
26
Please, don't confuse them with facts.
1
Gosh, can we at least stop giving tax breaks to Americans who help fund those illegal settlements?
43
Violence is not protest. It is a justification for the other side's brutality. To say violence is the only way is absurd and patently false. It forgets important lessons taught by advocates of non-violent resistance like Gandhi and King. Their lessons are not merely moral, but practical.
To win against a more powerful opponent (as the Israelis surely are against the Palestinians,) you must fight them on a battlefield that does not favor them. That battlefield is the field of public opinion. These ultimately pointless stabbings undermine the gains Palestinians have in international opinion, and lend credence to the hardliner policies of reactionaries like Netanyahu.
To win against a more powerful opponent (as the Israelis surely are against the Palestinians,) you must fight them on a battlefield that does not favor them. That battlefield is the field of public opinion. These ultimately pointless stabbings undermine the gains Palestinians have in international opinion, and lend credence to the hardliner policies of reactionaries like Netanyahu.
2
They have already won the public opinion, but it's the politicians who have sold their souls for a few dollars from hedge fund managers that stand on the way.
2
Global public opinion is pretty unified on this issue...except in America and Israel.
3
They have been trying this for decades. No results. When there is peace, there is continued oppression and theft of land.
3
Israel has sowed apartheid into the occupied Palestinian territories and is now reaping the ugly results that are inevitable. The need for Israel’s oppression of Palestinians can only lead to unrest, and an eye for eye mentality on both sides will never end.
Bibi is a major cause of the unrest, as he swears off a two state solution and seeks military dominance over an unwieldy Palestinian population in the midst of Israeli everyday life.
Cleary Bibi could take a few lessons from Obama and forge a peaceful way forward that incorporates a two state solution. But it seems he rather put Israeli’s lives at risk then actually trying to solve the problem.
Bibi is a major cause of the unrest, as he swears off a two state solution and seeks military dominance over an unwieldy Palestinian population in the midst of Israeli everyday life.
Cleary Bibi could take a few lessons from Obama and forge a peaceful way forward that incorporates a two state solution. But it seems he rather put Israeli’s lives at risk then actually trying to solve the problem.
28
Interesting to read about three Israelis being killed. That is, indeed, tragic but mention of the of Palestinian deaths is buried later. Of course we all know that lives of some are valued but lives of others are mere flotsam. This kind of racism should have ended in 1945.
31
I find it interesting that a significant number of the commentators who feel that the Palestinian violence, incited and encouraged by their leaders, is "understandable" and (apparently) forgivable also feel that this is the only option that the Palestinians have. I would point out (invoking Gandhi and Mandela not even being necessary) that the Palestinians have always had, and continue to have, a choice. They could choose to abandon their lies. They could choose to accept the reality and the legitimacy of Israel. They could have chosen not to reject -- even as a basis for discussion -- the proposals made by Barak and Olmert. They could have chosen to accept responsibility for their actions (which is not synonymous with saying that Israel does *not* have to accept responsibility for its actions).
I find the attitude of these commentators, who probably think of themselves as progressive and humanistic, surprisingly similar to the paternalistic attitude toward Arabs that one finds in 19th Century European literature in which Arabs are treated as being not much better than children.
I find the attitude of these commentators, who probably think of themselves as progressive and humanistic, surprisingly similar to the paternalistic attitude toward Arabs that one finds in 19th Century European literature in which Arabs are treated as being not much better than children.
28
Richard:
"They could choose to accept the reality and the legitimacy of Israel."
****
They would likely get a nice settlement if they chose to do that. Instead, they choose war.
"They could choose to accept the reality and the legitimacy of Israel."
****
They would likely get a nice settlement if they chose to do that. Instead, they choose war.
13
Have the Israelis ever definitively stated that the Palestinians have a right to a sovereign nation with defined borders and without unwelcome incursions by its neighbor?
Why not?
Why not?
8
Oh yes, the violence will end if only the Palestinians will leave Gaza and the West B move to some other Arab country so Israel can take it all over. After all, as the Israelis believe,"God gave us this land" So it is God's will that the Palestinians who have lived there for thousands of years must abandon their homes, farms, and businesses to the Israelis without compensation and leave.
1
Gosh, is everything I write being held up in committee? Even the little one-liner responses?
Well overall it just doesn't matter. We bicker and gripe but Israel/Palestine is going to be an extension of the Empty Quarter in Saudi Arabia soon enough, too dry to support human life. So they can go on killing eachother until the end, none of it will mean a thing in a century.
Well overall it just doesn't matter. We bicker and gripe but Israel/Palestine is going to be an extension of the Empty Quarter in Saudi Arabia soon enough, too dry to support human life. So they can go on killing eachother until the end, none of it will mean a thing in a century.
2
If you ever go to Israel, you should go fishing in the Negev Desert. Israel has discovered water underneath the sand that is briny enough to support a certain type of fish so there are fish farms.
There is a joke about all the scientists in the world agreeing that in 24 hours the world will be under water. All of the religious leaders call their flock together and tell them to prepare for the end. The punchline is the Chief Rabbi calls together all of the Jews and says "Jews, we have 24 hours to figure out how to live under water"
That is my response to you.
There is a joke about all the scientists in the world agreeing that in 24 hours the world will be under water. All of the religious leaders call their flock together and tell them to prepare for the end. The punchline is the Chief Rabbi calls together all of the Jews and says "Jews, we have 24 hours to figure out how to live under water"
That is my response to you.
1
Violence on both sides, and repression by Israel, is not the answer. A two-state solution is no longer possible (look at a map showing the settlements and the wall). One state is the reality today, but it must be a state with equal rights and citizenship for Arabs and Jews alike. This will not be a Jewish state and it will not be a Palestinian state. It will be a state for both peoples. Both must give up their nationalistic dreams. The way forward will be difficult but it is the only possible way out of a status quo that cannot continue forever.
12
There's never going to be any sort of consensus on issues in this region as long as each side is arguing based on its own facts. The revisionist history and misuse of terms in these comments are making me ill. Raise your hand if you remember that the West Bank was occupied by Jordan for years (and Jordan itself was carved out of the British Palestinian Mandate around the same time as Israel, making it the Arab state in Palestine), as Gaza was occupied by Egypt! Oh, and who gave these areas self-rule? Not their former Arab occupiers. Do any of you actually remember Apartheid or know what it is? Hint: It would not have involved black Africans in parliament or on the highest court of the land in South Africa.
17
A systematic discrimination against a people based on ethnicity and religion enshrined in law...sounds like apartheid to me. Just because it isn't exactly South African style apartheid doesn't mean it's not apartheid.
1
This latest round of violence seems to have started over the Al-Aqsa Mosque, which Israelis call Temple Mount. One day, Israeli soldiers occupied the mosque and prevented Palestinians from praying there. That triggered a violent reaction on the part of Palestinian youths. Israel said it had "reports" there was going to be violence there and took that action. That, in turn, made violence a reality. Then Palestinians were prevented from going into Old Jerusalem for a few days, after some Palestinian attacked and killed an Israeli couple. Then there was violence on the part of the settlers against the Palestinians and violence from Palestinian youths against Israelis and this continues to this day. Many Palestinians fear they will have to share the Mosque with Jewish worshippers, but Netanyahu has said that is not the case and, as the law stipulates, only Palestinian Muslims will be allowed to control the whole Mosque. However, as things now stand, no one believes what anyone says anymore. And the violence goes on. Palestinians believed to have taken part in attacks against Israelis have had their family homes demolished. That in turns produced more violence. A stabbing will lead to a shooting and it's all part of a vicious cycle. Where this will lead to, no one knows.
6
Netanyahu has zero credibility, as most of the American populace learned with his impotent and ill considered meddling in American politics last year.
1
Both sides of this conflict fail to learn from history. Most fundamentally, neither side has seem to learn that pushing the other side harder will not yield peace. Palestinians have been attempting to use terrorism as a tool of liberation for decades. It hasn't worked, and it never will work. Stabbing a bunch of people won't make the Israelis suddenly give up. It will only give the hardliners more ammunition and turn moderate Israelis away from conciliation.
Likewise, the Israelis resort to retaliatory armed response and apartheid-style policies without accepting the fundamental premise that the violence will never end until the underlying problems are resolved. Hardliners promise security, but without peace all security is illusory. Peace will not come from squeezing the Palestinians harder.
Sadly, I think this latest round of violence will do little to convince either side of anything other than they are right.
Likewise, the Israelis resort to retaliatory armed response and apartheid-style policies without accepting the fundamental premise that the violence will never end until the underlying problems are resolved. Hardliners promise security, but without peace all security is illusory. Peace will not come from squeezing the Palestinians harder.
Sadly, I think this latest round of violence will do little to convince either side of anything other than they are right.
2
Spontaneous, uncoordinated acts of violent rage, spilling into western Jerusalem; young women running to throw stones at soldiers: after decades of dehumanizing oppression, bombing, humiliating midnight raids on homes, and the constant scourge of violent settlers (who chant "death to Arabs" each year on Jerusalem day while marching through Palestinian neighborhoods), this is what one calls the chickens coming home to roost. For all the Israelis who "suddenly" feel like they're not safe in the streets, I'm terribly sorry, but your country has provoked this.
44
Its astounding and disturbing how we justify the murder of Jews when not simply ignoring these events. Consider that beyond what has happened in Israel over the last week there was a firebomb thrown at two Jewish kids in Manhattan, rocks thrown at a Jewish woman pushing a stroller past a Muslim community center in Brooklyn and Yemini government officials threatening to evict Jews who don't convert to Islam (see jpost.com). The under-reporting of and lack of outcry over these events is simply symptomatic of a tolerance for assaults on Jews. The fact that we hide behind such misused terms as "settler" or "apartheid" in justifying what is essentially an utter lack of civilization and outright anti-Semitism within much of the (Muslim) world is shameful.
34
Its equally astounding and disturbing that supporters of Israel justify the murder of Palestinians by Jewish terrorists.
1
I just can't believe the United States still gives these people weapons, how tragic. I think it is in the best interests of the United States to just say "No".
No more weapons, no more jet aircraft, no billions a year in charity to a country that can't care for it's citizens humanely.
This apartheid is unreasonable, everyone knows that the Palestinians were there long before there was a State of Israel. The collective guilt of the European and American communities conspired to place the Jewish refugees in the worst possible place they could place them. The world has suffered ever since. The people of Israel think they are above the locals, they aren't, they just have the guns we have given them and continue to give them. Disgraceful.
No more weapons, no more jet aircraft, no billions a year in charity to a country that can't care for it's citizens humanely.
This apartheid is unreasonable, everyone knows that the Palestinians were there long before there was a State of Israel. The collective guilt of the European and American communities conspired to place the Jewish refugees in the worst possible place they could place them. The world has suffered ever since. The people of Israel think they are above the locals, they aren't, they just have the guns we have given them and continue to give them. Disgraceful.
37
Not to change the subject, but the US also sells weapons to Saudi Arabia. You know what their human rights record is.
1
Yes. USA gives overseas aid and weapons yet has a ZERO social security COLA increase in 2016 thus continuingly dooming seniors to lives of increased poverty and hardship. There are hypocritical, misguided and corrupt values at work. Let's think very carefully who we vote for in the 2016 elections.
3
I agree with Mary Ann, Tom. You're taking things out of context. Palestinians have it better in Israel than they do in most surrounding Arab countries, just receive more media attention. And no citizen of any Arab country has it better than Israeli Arabs. Please use perspective.
5
"....he described the actions of the Israeli security forces and citizens as “legitimate self-defense.”"
Sure, it's on video. The boy already shot, on the ground bleeding in agony, with the crowd of civilians egging on with one man is shouting "kill him, shoot him in the head". Sounds like legitimate self-defense to me.
Sure, it's on video. The boy already shot, on the ground bleeding in agony, with the crowd of civilians egging on with one man is shouting "kill him, shoot him in the head". Sounds like legitimate self-defense to me.
17
if that was a Jewish kid found in Gaza, there would be no video-he would be dead already. This boy [and his now dead cousin] you speak of stabbed a 13 year old boy riding a bike! “Both terrorists stabbed the boy many times all over his body!" People were yelling at him terrible things as a means of frustration. He looks more scared than anything else. At the end of the video, he is sitting up. Contrast that with the story of soldiers Vadim Nurzhitz and Yossi Avrahami who mistakenly passed an Israeli checkpoint and entered Ramallah. They were detained by Palestinian police only to have the police station overrun by an angry mob of Palestinians. What occurred after was one of the most horrific incidents violence in the Israeli Palestinian conflict. The soldiers were beaten, stabbed, had their eyes gouged out, and were disemboweled. At this point, a Palestinian (later identified as Aziz Salha), appeared at the window, displaying his blood-soaked hands to the crowd, which erupted into cheers. The crowd clapped and cheered as one of the soldier's bodies was then thrown out the window and stamped and beaten by the frenzied crowd. One of the bodies was set on fire. Soon after, the crowd dragged the two mutilated bodies to Al-Manara Square in the city center as the crowd began an impromptu victory celebration. Palestinian policemen did not prevent, and in the lynching.
4
WestSider - if you were critically stabbed for being a liberal on Broadway and 96th street I would hope your neighbors would be just as angry with your attacker.
2
There is a simple way for Netanyahu to end this violence:
1. Stop building settlements in occupied territory.
2. Respect the human rights of all human beings
3. Stop talking about a 2 state solution and take real action toward creating 2 states.
The world is tired of this nonsense and all the violence and terrorism that Israeli policies are giving rise to.
(If Israel wants to claim to be the "only true democracy" in the Middle East, Israel needs to act democratically, respect the rights of all, and stop playing games. Enough!)
1. Stop building settlements in occupied territory.
2. Respect the human rights of all human beings
3. Stop talking about a 2 state solution and take real action toward creating 2 states.
The world is tired of this nonsense and all the violence and terrorism that Israeli policies are giving rise to.
(If Israel wants to claim to be the "only true democracy" in the Middle East, Israel needs to act democratically, respect the rights of all, and stop playing games. Enough!)
37
I can counter your claim with three other ways that can work for Abbas to end the violence on his end.
1. Start calling out groups such as Hamas in that the don't represent all of the ideas for a Palestinian state and start taking action to actually stop them rather than be silent or rush to their defense.
2. Understand that Israel does have the right to exist as a Jewish state and understand that it's not going anywhere anytime soon especially if he wants his state to be recognized the same way.
3. He must learn how to compromise when willing to talk about the two state solution and learn that he can't have everything that he wants especially on having the right to return or even part of Jerusalem in that matter.
Hopefully, this will give understanding to how to end this long conflict and that they can't last forever and must end at some point in time.
1. Start calling out groups such as Hamas in that the don't represent all of the ideas for a Palestinian state and start taking action to actually stop them rather than be silent or rush to their defense.
2. Understand that Israel does have the right to exist as a Jewish state and understand that it's not going anywhere anytime soon especially if he wants his state to be recognized the same way.
3. He must learn how to compromise when willing to talk about the two state solution and learn that he can't have everything that he wants especially on having the right to return or even part of Jerusalem in that matter.
Hopefully, this will give understanding to how to end this long conflict and that they can't last forever and must end at some point in time.
1
The inability of Israel itself to recognize their role in provoking this violence is so clear in their ironic statements right in this article, where they seem unable to recognize simple glaring incongruities: Palestinians residing in Jerusalem "are not citizens"; Israel complains of terrorists, while being guilty of it themselves. And on and on.
If they could only see their own role in oppressing and terrorizing a population under occupation. If they only treated all residents as citizens, as human beings with the same dignity, the same aspirations, the same desire to live freely, to have equal rights under the law. And on and on.
The arrogance of Israeli leaders, along with their lack of compassion to a people who have just as much right to the land they live in, the ironies in their language, their laws, their treatment of human beings as lessor than they.
I do not condone violence. On either side. I do not condone reprisals or collective punishment. But history will record that a people who suffered for their ethnicity have identified with their aggressors and become what they abhorred.
If they could only see their own role in oppressing and terrorizing a population under occupation. If they only treated all residents as citizens, as human beings with the same dignity, the same aspirations, the same desire to live freely, to have equal rights under the law. And on and on.
The arrogance of Israeli leaders, along with their lack of compassion to a people who have just as much right to the land they live in, the ironies in their language, their laws, their treatment of human beings as lessor than they.
I do not condone violence. On either side. I do not condone reprisals or collective punishment. But history will record that a people who suffered for their ethnicity have identified with their aggressors and become what they abhorred.
143
Just FYI, they can become citizens if they want to. Most chose no.
5
By no means am I expert on this issue, but I'll put in my shuck in my two cents for what it is worth.
When I read that Israel had built a wall separating people, I knew it was the absolute wrong direction. It might achieve temporary fix, but long-term it was a recipe for disaster.
When people are separated, it prevents them from knowing one another and forming any type of cooperative alliances that might lead to a more peaceful situation. Even worse, the people on the other side of the wall become "the other," easily de-humanized and made the object of everything going wrong, regardless of fact.
This may be an over simplification, but there seems to be two opposing groups from either side, both acting solely on in their own interest with agendas ranging from separation to complete destruction of the opposition.
This separation policy serves to widen the extremes. People who have had moderate views in the past, can now only react to extremist's actions.
I am a great admirer of the Jewish people; however, I feel no alliance to a government that built such a destructive system.
When I read that Israel had built a wall separating people, I knew it was the absolute wrong direction. It might achieve temporary fix, but long-term it was a recipe for disaster.
When people are separated, it prevents them from knowing one another and forming any type of cooperative alliances that might lead to a more peaceful situation. Even worse, the people on the other side of the wall become "the other," easily de-humanized and made the object of everything going wrong, regardless of fact.
This may be an over simplification, but there seems to be two opposing groups from either side, both acting solely on in their own interest with agendas ranging from separation to complete destruction of the opposition.
This separation policy serves to widen the extremes. People who have had moderate views in the past, can now only react to extremist's actions.
I am a great admirer of the Jewish people; however, I feel no alliance to a government that built such a destructive system.
3
Fact check: all residents of East Jerusalem are entitled to sign up for Israeli citizenship, along with all of the rights and privileges that it entails: voting rights, freedom of movement, to have a car with Israeli plates, to health care, etc.
It is only out of political protest that most Arabs of East Jerusalem choose to forego these privileges.
It is only out of political protest that most Arabs of East Jerusalem choose to forego these privileges.
5
"In the Knesset, Mr. Netanyahu called on Mr. Abbas to “stop lying, stop inciting.”"
Mr. Netanyahu should google the words "Temple Mount" from 2009 till June 2015 to see what 'incitement' looks like. He has been working hard to bring about an infidata since the Kerry talks broke down based on his refusal 2 state solution.
Mr. Netanyahu should google the words "Temple Mount" from 2009 till June 2015 to see what 'incitement' looks like. He has been working hard to bring about an infidata since the Kerry talks broke down based on his refusal 2 state solution.
22
Are you talking about the Arabs who have repeatedly engaged in stoning and other attacks on Jews going to pray at their holy sites? Why are you laying that at Netanyahu's feet? Are you saying he shouldn't have continued the practice of allowing the Palestinians to control access to the multi-faith holy sites?
10
Why don't you google what I posted above and see for yourself. Al Aqsa mosque is not a Jewish holy site.
1
No, its the continual efforts by radical Jews to exclude the Muslims from the temple mount.
Several of the most recommended comments are simply justifications for ramdom acts of violence justified under some notion of collective guilt. The Palestinians have many legitimate grievences. But how does stabbing some random Jew advance any type of solution.
On a more personal level would you be willing to be stabbed to death in the name of evening the score for any of the many injustices perpretrated by this country. But of course you were always against evil in all it's forms, but who knew.
On a more personal level would you be willing to be stabbed to death in the name of evening the score for any of the many injustices perpretrated by this country. But of course you were always against evil in all it's forms, but who knew.
14
A 48 year occupation, theft and indifference to the suffering of 4 million people whose lands were forcefully taken by colonialist forces is what I call evil.
The Israelis know that they are in their greatest peril since the 1950's. Not only is Iran close to having nukes and ICBMs, but Russia is now ensconced in the Middle East, a goal the Soviets only wished that they could have achieved.
The one friend they always had in America is now led by a clearly delusional man who may have to be hospitalized. What else can you say about a guy who shrugs at the deaths of a quarter million innocents in Syria but then claims that the REAL crisis is the (unproven) global warming issue? Even with the accumulation of ice at the North Pole?
I don't know if America still stores nukes in aircraft or missiles full-time anymore, but Israel sure needs to.
The one friend they always had in America is now led by a clearly delusional man who may have to be hospitalized. What else can you say about a guy who shrugs at the deaths of a quarter million innocents in Syria but then claims that the REAL crisis is the (unproven) global warming issue? Even with the accumulation of ice at the North Pole?
I don't know if America still stores nukes in aircraft or missiles full-time anymore, but Israel sure needs to.
7
The politicians on both sides have been buoying their careers by calling for confrontation rather than conciliation. I see it in the quotes in this article.
In fact, I suspect in these very comments we will have supporters for both sides shrilly proclaiming how just their cause and how evil the other side is. But neither side will provide any answers except for the other side to recognize how wrong it is. Both sides will cry out, "but look at the horrible things they are doing and how reasonable we have been, how can we do anything else?"
This is, essentially, none of the United States' business. With decades and decades of fruitless moderated peace negotiation, this is not an issue anyone from the outside can solve.
In fact, I suspect in these very comments we will have supporters for both sides shrilly proclaiming how just their cause and how evil the other side is. But neither side will provide any answers except for the other side to recognize how wrong it is. Both sides will cry out, "but look at the horrible things they are doing and how reasonable we have been, how can we do anything else?"
This is, essentially, none of the United States' business. With decades and decades of fruitless moderated peace negotiation, this is not an issue anyone from the outside can solve.
4
It seems obvious to me that Netanyahu's goal has always been to engender a third intifada, to make life so unbearable for the Palestinians that they revolt against the occupying force, and then retaliate in a grand way, murder as many as he can, and built more settlements for "security" purposes. Netanyahu is in my mind responsible as well for all the Israeli civilians who been killed as a result of an oppressed people rebelling against his policies. Netanyahu is a narcissist, a megalomaniac, a psychopath and a racist.
19
Many of the comments here are understanding of the Palestinians attacking Israelis. That is that walking up to a civilian and plunging a knife into then with the intent of killing then is considered to be not the outright murder of an individual civilian, but its actually a legitimate form of attack upon the nation that their grievance is against. In other words in Israel individual civilians are fair game when the objective is to attack a nation.
So once again there are different rules for Israelis than there are for individual civilians of all other nations. The US is currently at war with ISIS and as such ISIS certainly has a legitimate right to strike back at the US. Therefore if the rules that apply to Israels apply also to others then the stabbings that are carried out by Muslims upon individuals in western countries should certainly be considered to be attacks upon America, and thus legitimate.
Of course this is not the way that those attacks are viewed in America. And this is not only because an individual American is not considered to be a representative of their government, but in the rest of the world attacks on civilians at all is considered to be outright murder.
To argue that Palestinians may attack Israeli civilians in their fight against the policies and actions of the Israeli government when such attacks in the context of any other conflict are murder and terrorism cannot be based on anything other than the idea that Jewish blood is cheaper than their's.
So once again there are different rules for Israelis than there are for individual civilians of all other nations. The US is currently at war with ISIS and as such ISIS certainly has a legitimate right to strike back at the US. Therefore if the rules that apply to Israels apply also to others then the stabbings that are carried out by Muslims upon individuals in western countries should certainly be considered to be attacks upon America, and thus legitimate.
Of course this is not the way that those attacks are viewed in America. And this is not only because an individual American is not considered to be a representative of their government, but in the rest of the world attacks on civilians at all is considered to be outright murder.
To argue that Palestinians may attack Israeli civilians in their fight against the policies and actions of the Israeli government when such attacks in the context of any other conflict are murder and terrorism cannot be based on anything other than the idea that Jewish blood is cheaper than their's.
26
No, there are the same rules. They are called international law. If Israel wants to be a part of the civilized world, then they ought to start abiding by its laws.
7
What about the fire bombing of a Palestinian home by Jewish terrorists? Is that OK? You don't seem to be condemning the continuing terrorism inflicted on the Palestinians.
1
This Israeli government and many before it have sworn that Jerusalem shall never be divided again. But now we hear calls to do just that, to divide the Arab sections from the Jewish ones, reflecting a belated recognition that Jerusalem has remained divided all along. How ironic.
5
The Israeli position has been that the borders of any Palestinian state will be determined by the facts on the ground, i.e. the existence, location and size of settlements on the West Bank. The location, construction and expansion of West Bank settlements has made a Palestinian state impracticable.
Now, the Israelis find themselves limited by the facts on the ground. They must govern a large, unruly, hostile Palestinian population on the West Bank and deal with increasing Palestinian violence within Israel.
The Israelis, having chosen to rely on the facts on the ground, now realize they cannot pick and choose the pleasing facts. They must accept all the facts their strategy has created.
Now, the Israelis find themselves limited by the facts on the ground. They must govern a large, unruly, hostile Palestinian population on the West Bank and deal with increasing Palestinian violence within Israel.
The Israelis, having chosen to rely on the facts on the ground, now realize they cannot pick and choose the pleasing facts. They must accept all the facts their strategy has created.
8
The price of occupation for Mr. Netanyahu is increasingly buried in the ground. The opportunity cost will continue to rise.The occupation compromises Israel's moral authority every day it continues. The collateral damage carnage in Gaza will never be forgotten.When Bibi spoke at the U.N. he railed against the members for their continued demonization of Israel. He uttered the hackneyed cliches about the Holocaust and the unbreakable bond between the U.S.and Israel.Then his rhetoric took on a darker, nativist tone. He talked about the excellence and myriad accomplishments of the Jewish people, he begged the obvious question about the Palestinians. I became uncomfortable with the verbal excess.I thought of the Palestinians and his remarks about them on Israel's election day.I wonder if the arrogant, oblivious,Netanyahu realized how much his rhetorical tone mirrored that of racist Southern demagogues justifying the American Apartheid known as Jim Crow.
I
I
17
I'm an American/Australian dual-national, but at the moment I'm living in Tel Aviv. Today my wife and I have taken steps to arrange alternative transport to and from school for our children who heretofore have been riding the public bus.
I and, as it happens, most of the Israelis I know (a non-representative sample, to be sure) stand in vocal opposition to the current Israeli government and stand in favor of a Palestinian state and a permanent Israeli/Palestinian peace. Even so, I will not demure from condemning all unprovoked attacks on civilians whether carried out by Arabs or Jews.
To all those in this comments forum who suggest that the Israelis have it coming, do you mean to suggest that my children, who are Jewish, deserve to be shot or stabbed while riding a bus to school? If so, you know where you can go.
I and, as it happens, most of the Israelis I know (a non-representative sample, to be sure) stand in vocal opposition to the current Israeli government and stand in favor of a Palestinian state and a permanent Israeli/Palestinian peace. Even so, I will not demure from condemning all unprovoked attacks on civilians whether carried out by Arabs or Jews.
To all those in this comments forum who suggest that the Israelis have it coming, do you mean to suggest that my children, who are Jewish, deserve to be shot or stabbed while riding a bus to school? If so, you know where you can go.
172
No one here is suggesting that your or anyone else's children deserved to be harmed. Rather the consensus is that neither you nor any other person should be surprised if it were to happen. Such horrific deeds are the direct of your government's policies.
1
No one said anything remotely like that. But I would encourage you to move to a decent country, and I'm generous enough with that appellation to include both Australia and the U.S. Defending Israel now is a little like living in Saudi and complaining about women's rights.
Nobody suggests that your children deserve to be stabbed, on the contrary what is suggested is that an American/Australian dual national surely has no need to go live in a country with which he has no actual connection other than some mythical religious cult fantasy, particularly when that particular state is in the process of brutalising ethnically cleansing the pre-existing Palestinian population of that land in order to replace them with people like you. Both America and Australia are beautiful and safe countries and you and your children deserve to live happy and fulfilling lives in them, just as the Palestinians deserve the right to live happy and fulfilling lives in Palestine away from Israeli occupation and Jewish extremist terrorist groups.
Reading about this conflict is beginning to remind me of the same coverage given here to the conflict between the police and our marginalized citizenry. One of which the disproportionate nature of the response always seems to sound justifiable by the controlling powers that be, without any regard if it's too heavy-handed or not. In Israel, the killing of one Jew would seem to justify killing a thousand Palestinians, whereas here the same would be true for the police vs. blacks or any other minority group. There are sacred cows everywhere that no one dare mess with, regardless.
13
As usual Israel is over dramatizing these killings. With all due respect to those who have died and every murder is a senseless, stupid and disgusting death, Israel acts like it's the end of days for them- call out the Army, citizens arm yourselves, etc etc. If only NYC, Chicago and L.A. were to approach murders that happen on a daily and routine basis the same way, maybe things would change, then again probably not, for Chicago tried to call out the citizens against violence to little effect. Israel- stop crying wolf and start treating the Palestinians like human beings and maybe they will reciprocate- oh i forgot- as Palestinians have said- "You're the chosen people", you don't have to".
13
This is an orchestrated, premeditated, extremist-religious based, blood libel.
Words of Abbas two weeks ago at the UN:
"I call on the Israeli government, before it is too late, to cease its use of brutal force to impose its plans to undermine the Islamic and Christian sanctuaries in Jerusalem, particularly its actions at Al-Aqsa Mosque, for such actions will convert the conflict from a political to religious one, creating an explosive in Jerusalem and in the rest of the occupied Palestinian territory."
Two weeks later we have this. Surprise? Now you get it?
There is no Israeli plan to take over the mosque. Netanyahu has repeatedly, publicly made that clear. It is a boldface lie. Like the popular Arab libel that the "Jews" were behind 9/11.
This is yet another example of the constant religious bloodthirsty extremism which seems to be set off at the slightest triggers, and most deranged conspiracies; an amateur You Tube video, a cartoon, some guy burning a book in his backyard; and now a blood libel that the Jews are stealing Arab mosques and Christian churches. Insanity.
No longer can religious extremism hide behind the Palestinian cause. The mask is off.
Do they think the rest of the world is not watching? Even if the world publicly does the politically correct "Israel bad-bad" head bob, they still see what's happening. Why are they surprised that in their hour of need Europe doesn't want to risk hosting them?
Words of Abbas two weeks ago at the UN:
"I call on the Israeli government, before it is too late, to cease its use of brutal force to impose its plans to undermine the Islamic and Christian sanctuaries in Jerusalem, particularly its actions at Al-Aqsa Mosque, for such actions will convert the conflict from a political to religious one, creating an explosive in Jerusalem and in the rest of the occupied Palestinian territory."
Two weeks later we have this. Surprise? Now you get it?
There is no Israeli plan to take over the mosque. Netanyahu has repeatedly, publicly made that clear. It is a boldface lie. Like the popular Arab libel that the "Jews" were behind 9/11.
This is yet another example of the constant religious bloodthirsty extremism which seems to be set off at the slightest triggers, and most deranged conspiracies; an amateur You Tube video, a cartoon, some guy burning a book in his backyard; and now a blood libel that the Jews are stealing Arab mosques and Christian churches. Insanity.
No longer can religious extremism hide behind the Palestinian cause. The mask is off.
Do they think the rest of the world is not watching? Even if the world publicly does the politically correct "Israel bad-bad" head bob, they still see what's happening. Why are they surprised that in their hour of need Europe doesn't want to risk hosting them?
17
From many of the comments here it's clear that many view Palestinian and Arab Israeli terrorists, (imagine if they were stabbing people left and right in Grand Central Station), as freedom fighters. Even sadder, some readers lament that their are no Gandhi's in the Palestinian leadership; big surprise there.
But the comparison the Jews fighting for survival before extermination in the ghettos of WWII is appropriate to the extent of the hatred of the Jews from much of the world, in this case much of the readers below, while Jews are being murdered.
But the comparison the Jews fighting for survival before extermination in the ghettos of WWII is appropriate to the extent of the hatred of the Jews from much of the world, in this case much of the readers below, while Jews are being murdered.
15
Four Attacks - 3 people killed. In another country this would be a police matter. In fact, in the US we certainly have more than that number in just one of our big cities and our government hasn't had an emergency meeting on any killing. However, it must be different in Israel.... time to begin bombing Gaza again. I suppose... If we go by the ratio of the last bombing, (67 Israelis killed to 2000+ Palestinians) Israel would be justified in taking out at least 100 but then there could be collateral damage that could raise that number. Never mind - the Palestinians brought it upon themselves.!
6
Four reported attacks - today. There have been over 300 hundred attacks since the beginning of September, beginning with arab teenagers randomly stabbing israelis. Did you not hear of the brutal murder of the Henkins, who were simply driving home when two arabs gunned them down in front of their four children?
Or the father who was stabbed to death in front of his wife and baby (who were also stabbed and thankfully survived)?
Did you fail to read the speech where Abbas declared that Jerusalem should run with the blood of jews, or the Imam who demanded that his congregation go out and stab any jews they could find?
Of course it must be Israel's fault, they shouldn't have occupied Arab territory - ok fine. How about the War of Independance, when several heavily armed arab nations (Jordan, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon) attempted to crush the newly formed State of Israel in 1947?
Or the unprovoked attack by Egypt and closing of the Suez canal in 1967?
1929 Hebron Massacre?
Who's at fault again?
Or the father who was stabbed to death in front of his wife and baby (who were also stabbed and thankfully survived)?
Did you fail to read the speech where Abbas declared that Jerusalem should run with the blood of jews, or the Imam who demanded that his congregation go out and stab any jews they could find?
Of course it must be Israel's fault, they shouldn't have occupied Arab territory - ok fine. How about the War of Independance, when several heavily armed arab nations (Jordan, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon) attempted to crush the newly formed State of Israel in 1947?
Or the unprovoked attack by Egypt and closing of the Suez canal in 1967?
1929 Hebron Massacre?
Who's at fault again?
1
Terror attacks are never police matters. And 3 Israelis killed in one day is like 150 Americans. And you forget the 13 years old boy stabbed by a 13 and 17 years old Arabs who is still in intensive care. Anyhow, let me bet that if you were in this line of attacks, or your family, you would be talking quite differently. But then, Jewish blood was always quite cheap.
1
I'm normally no friend to the State of Israel and its imposition of apartheid upon the Palestinians, its land-grabbing and settlement in the West Bank, its starvation of Gaza, or its quasi-religious Manifest Destiny ideology. However, this violence by Palestinians is unacceptable and self-defeating in terms of peace. Nations have the basic right and duty to protect the physical security of their citizens, and generally people do not respond to random knife attacks on civilians by extending the olive branch or engaging in talks. I expect the Israeli security response will be appropriately strong.
What these attacks really indicate is a failure of confidence in the Palestinian leadership to deliver any results for the people; Abbas wins recognition of Palestine at the UN, but that won't change the deprived life of an average Palestinian for a moment. Frustration boils over and results in random violence. Both Abbas and Netanyahu need to come back to the table in good faith and abandon the more extreme elements that block peace at every turn. Whether a two-state solution or some other solution, the negotiated outcome must result in increased quality of life and security for all involved.
What these attacks really indicate is a failure of confidence in the Palestinian leadership to deliver any results for the people; Abbas wins recognition of Palestine at the UN, but that won't change the deprived life of an average Palestinian for a moment. Frustration boils over and results in random violence. Both Abbas and Netanyahu need to come back to the table in good faith and abandon the more extreme elements that block peace at every turn. Whether a two-state solution or some other solution, the negotiated outcome must result in increased quality of life and security for all involved.
41
Sorry, but you evidently never had personal experience of apartheid, a system very different from the one Israeli Arabs live under. Nor, may I say, have you or most other posters ever apparently lived under personal threat of random street violence. Fact is, the conflict is kept at boiling point by nations and factions who are attacking Israel as a proxy for Western values in a regions that finds such values threatening.
5
You can call Israel "apartheid" all you wish, but it only makes you and others who use it look foolish. You obviously have no idea what true apartheid was.
And, the folly of your post is further magnified by the fact that Abbas and Hamas have repeatedly stated in no uncertain terms their militant desire to have total separation and disengagement from Jews if any future "Palestinian" state actually comes into being.
And, the folly of your post is further magnified by the fact that Abbas and Hamas have repeatedly stated in no uncertain terms their militant desire to have total separation and disengagement from Jews if any future "Palestinian" state actually comes into being.
6
On a minor point, AC, Gaza was the perfect example of what happens when the Israelis abandon their "occupation". Israel left unilaterally in 2004, leaving a whole agronomic complex in place for the Palestinians. The favor was returned with a razing of the buildings and a daily bombardment of rockets into Israel proper.
5
The recent attacks have an air of desperation. I would argue that they are the last resort of a group of people who have tried for decades to be accepted as an independent nation with borders that should not be encroached on. The problem is less the actions of both parties (obviously deplorable, the level of anti-semitism in the Arab community is particularly shocking) but rather the overwhelming superiority of Israel's position. Netanyahu's government has made no effort to compromise because there is no need to. They have what amounts to the full support of the US government, and are superior economically and militarily in their own right. This conflict will not end until Israel faces the possibility of real repercussions from their actions. At the moment there are basically none.
9
In the past week twenty Palestinians have been killed by Israeli soldiers and settlers. Insiders in the army are reporting that soldiers have been told to shoot whenever anyone looks "suspicious." The web is full of videos showing Palestinian civilians being shot at will. By what tragic logic does the New York Times justify putting up a front page story only about the Israeli victims of Israel's practices?
14
"Each day that passes, more innocent lives are lost, as is any hope to reach a peaceful two-state solution in the future, ... "
Yeah ... I think that ship has sailed. There may be a two-state solution eventually, but it isn't going to be a peaceful solution. You'll have two armed camps cut off from one another, with one still committed to murdering every citizen on the other side. Very sad.
Yeah ... I think that ship has sailed. There may be a two-state solution eventually, but it isn't going to be a peaceful solution. You'll have two armed camps cut off from one another, with one still committed to murdering every citizen on the other side. Very sad.
Comprehensive sanctions on Israel until it withdraws from Occupied Palestine.
14
Please indicate whether you will also require Jordan to return the portion of the British Palestinian Mandate that was used to create it. Also, since Israel has already withdrawn from Gaza and most of the West Bank, please indicate whether any withdrawal short of declaring itself to no longer exist will suffice.
1
Are the pre-1967 lines also Occupied Palestine? Is stabbing civilians in those areas acceptable as "resistance"?
Its easy to chant slogans. Would that work for you if descendants of the Kootenai people decided that stabbing pedestrians in Vancouver was an acceptable way of getting rid of the white European occupiers?
Its easy to chant slogans. Would that work for you if descendants of the Kootenai people decided that stabbing pedestrians in Vancouver was an acceptable way of getting rid of the white European occupiers?
The established parameter for a final border is the green line with offsetting land swaps. UN Security Council Resolution 262 and its successors state that any territorial expansion through military consequence is "impermissible". The Fourth Geneva Convention bans the settlement of occupied territories and the International Court of Justice has deemed the Israeli occupation to be illegal.
It is the Coastal Salish who are the indigenous First Nation of coastal southwest B.C. The Supreme Court of Canada has found that aboriginal title is "unextinguished". And while Canada's treatment of First Nations has been reprehensible, it is far, far better than the American practices.
Coastal Salish do not stab pedestrians because the relationship is international with longstanding bargaining on what aboriginal title involves, and compensation for usurped territories. There can be no pipeline for tar sands oil through B.C. because First Nations veto it.
When Israelis confiscate Palestinian homes and evict their owners, crowds of dancing Haredim celebrate the "victory" humiliating the dispossessed. If you love Israel, you will get it to act legally for the current occupation has been condemned by all former heads of Shin Bet.
It is the Coastal Salish who are the indigenous First Nation of coastal southwest B.C. The Supreme Court of Canada has found that aboriginal title is "unextinguished". And while Canada's treatment of First Nations has been reprehensible, it is far, far better than the American practices.
Coastal Salish do not stab pedestrians because the relationship is international with longstanding bargaining on what aboriginal title involves, and compensation for usurped territories. There can be no pipeline for tar sands oil through B.C. because First Nations veto it.
When Israelis confiscate Palestinian homes and evict their owners, crowds of dancing Haredim celebrate the "victory" humiliating the dispossessed. If you love Israel, you will get it to act legally for the current occupation has been condemned by all former heads of Shin Bet.
Your readers are showing they can argue artfully in behalf of their ideological bent. And they do it persuasively, even as they contradict each other. It must feel terrific being in possession of the truth. But such truthists are never inclined to see that peace, unlike victory, must involve recognition of the humanity of both parties to a dispute. Such recognition would see a hundred-year conflict for the abomination it is.
In so many readers' comments, the urge to find fault only with their ideological opposite is the very fuel that permits opposing leaders on the ground to find it impractical to raise peace as the highest human value and to teach their followers to accept it as such. And the result is, in the instance of the Israel-Palestine tragedy, akin to ancient wooly mammoths who famously locked horns in conflict, couldn't disentangle them and then eventually starved to death.
In so many readers' comments, the urge to find fault only with their ideological opposite is the very fuel that permits opposing leaders on the ground to find it impractical to raise peace as the highest human value and to teach their followers to accept it as such. And the result is, in the instance of the Israel-Palestine tragedy, akin to ancient wooly mammoths who famously locked horns in conflict, couldn't disentangle them and then eventually starved to death.
1
Same old same old. Palestinian leaders refuse to negotiate with the Israelis and instead resort to barbaric terrorism and murder. When will they get it - they are not getting the State of Israel. It isn't theirs and never was. If they want land that Jordan used to occupy that Israel now controls, they need to behave like human beings and negotiate like grown ups, not terrorists.
10
Israel will reap what it sows, and justifiably so. If they want peace, they should pursue peace, finally understanding that they will have to give as well as take. Frankly, I don't believe they want peace.
16
I suggest you read up on modern history. Specifically, Oslo 1&2, The Roadmap, the First Intifidah, the Second Intifidah. I'm sure it will be very enlightening.
Israel has abandoned Oslo 1&2. So much for enlightenment. Next.
It is sad to watch this cycle of violence continue and escalate now that Mr. Netanyahu's government finally has been revealed as having no interest in a "two state solution".
Other commenters have noted that this newspaper seems to have a case of selective amnesia when it comes to reporting on Palestinian violence while mostly ignoring 2 generations of Israel's institutionalized repression of the Palestinian people.
I'm reminded with no small sense of irony of the Shylock monologue from Merchant of Venice where Shylock, a Jew lashes out at his Christian oppressors... only now, the roles have taken a turn.
In this performance, the role of Shylock will be played by the Palestinian people.
"I am a Jew. Hath not a Jew eyes? Hath not a Jew hands, organs, dimensions, senses... hurt with the same weapons, subject to the same diseases, healed by the same means, warmed and cooled by the same winter and summer as a Christian is?"
"If you prick us do we not bleed? If you tickle us do we not laugh? If you poison us do we not die? And if you wrong us shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that. If a Jew wrong a Christian, what is his humility? Revenge."
"If a Christian wrong a Jew, what should his sufferance be by Christian example? Why, revenge. The villainy you teach me I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction."
It seems the Israelis have taught the Palestinians well and are reaping what they have sewn.
Other commenters have noted that this newspaper seems to have a case of selective amnesia when it comes to reporting on Palestinian violence while mostly ignoring 2 generations of Israel's institutionalized repression of the Palestinian people.
I'm reminded with no small sense of irony of the Shylock monologue from Merchant of Venice where Shylock, a Jew lashes out at his Christian oppressors... only now, the roles have taken a turn.
In this performance, the role of Shylock will be played by the Palestinian people.
"I am a Jew. Hath not a Jew eyes? Hath not a Jew hands, organs, dimensions, senses... hurt with the same weapons, subject to the same diseases, healed by the same means, warmed and cooled by the same winter and summer as a Christian is?"
"If you prick us do we not bleed? If you tickle us do we not laugh? If you poison us do we not die? And if you wrong us shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that. If a Jew wrong a Christian, what is his humility? Revenge."
"If a Christian wrong a Jew, what should his sufferance be by Christian example? Why, revenge. The villainy you teach me I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction."
It seems the Israelis have taught the Palestinians well and are reaping what they have sewn.
7
The only just moral fair resolution to the two-state Israeli Palestinian delusion is the one-state solution involving a civil secular plural egalitarian democracy in which all persons are divinely naturally created equal with certain unalienable rights including life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Neither a Zionist Jewish Israeli nation nor an Islamist Muslim Palestinian nation would be any more democratic than were slave or Jim Crow era America or apartheid South Africa.
Until then the 6 million Palestinians under Israeli dominion by occupation, blockade, siege, exile, apartheid, Jim Crow, imperial and colonial oppression have every right to use any all methods employed by the American and Israeli Founding Fathers or any civil human rights leaders or organizations to obtain their equality and liberty.
Until then the 6 million Palestinians under Israeli dominion by occupation, blockade, siege, exile, apartheid, Jim Crow, imperial and colonial oppression have every right to use any all methods employed by the American and Israeli Founding Fathers or any civil human rights leaders or organizations to obtain their equality and liberty.
10
Just so I understand you correctly, does "any and all methods" include gunning down a family in the middle of the highway? Sneaking into a home and slitting the throats of the parents and children while they're sleeping? Kidnapping teenagers at gunpoint from a bus stop and murdering them? Walking into a school and shooting anyone that moves?
1
I read you all the time and like your consistency. You treat everyone according to your firm ideology of the left.
But you know the expression - The left likes people - in abstract.
From a practical point of view, you ideologically pure solution is not what the parties want and would lead to the expulsion and massacre of the Jews.
But you know the expression - The left likes people - in abstract.
From a practical point of view, you ideologically pure solution is not what the parties want and would lead to the expulsion and massacre of the Jews.
1
@Jed/judith bell
Did you support Operations Cast Lead and Protective Edge?
Do you know where the 4.5 million Palestinians living in Gaza, West Bank, East Jerusalem and Golan Heights can go to vote for or against Benjamin Netanyahu, Avigdor Lieberman, Tzipi Livini or Isaac Herzog?
Did you support Operations Cast Lead and Protective Edge?
Do you know where the 4.5 million Palestinians living in Gaza, West Bank, East Jerusalem and Golan Heights can go to vote for or against Benjamin Netanyahu, Avigdor Lieberman, Tzipi Livini or Isaac Herzog?
1
Nobody wants to see violence from any corner, but Israel has been pouring gasoline on it's problems with Palestinians for years- especially from the Likudnik side.
The Jewish, Christian and Islamic faiths all teach that people reap what they sew, and the way Palestinians have been treated within Israel and the occupied territories does not encourage peace, love and understanding.
The Jewish, Christian and Islamic faiths all teach that people reap what they sew, and the way Palestinians have been treated within Israel and the occupied territories does not encourage peace, love and understanding.
9
Not making excuses for all this horrible violence, but YOU REAP WHAT YOU SOW ISRAEL. You illegally and brutally invaded Palestinian land 50 years ago and have kept the people down by brutal means all that time. The anger is understandable. TIME FOR PEACE, NOW!!
12
Does your memory go back 50 years? Does it go back more than 50 years to the circumstances that led up to that "illegal and brutal invasion"?
There's historical context that doesn't fit in to anybody's strict black and white view on either side of this horrible conflict
There's historical context that doesn't fit in to anybody's strict black and white view on either side of this horrible conflict
Netanyahu and his "Get tough" Likhud thug government expected a different result? Failure to learn from history over thousands of years does not speak well for "Bibi" or his self-destructive party.
12
The solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict will have to be through a war. They are just going to have to fight it out until one side is victorious and the other is vanquished. There is no other way. Usually when war results in total victory for one side and utter defeat for the other, the peace that ensues is long lasting.
2
Gee I wonder who will win, the people with the tanks, missiles, F-15 jets, laser guided bombs, and nuclear weapons, or the the people with the home made rockets that have no guidance systems?
I assume NYT will report the standard response of the Israeli right wing: the immediate imprisonment of the offenders who will wait years for a trial, the destruction by bulldozer of the homes of all the relatives of the offenders, leaving all with nothing as winter approaches, and the announcement of 1,000 more settlements in the West Bank to further the slow annexation of what should be a Palestinian state.
The Jews of Israel should recall that an oppressed people will rise up when they have nothing left to lose. The Jews of the Warsaw Ghetto did. And so will the Palestinians.
The Jews of Israel should recall that an oppressed people will rise up when they have nothing left to lose. The Jews of the Warsaw Ghetto did. And so will the Palestinians.
13
gaza is not a ghetto. Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto did not get billions of aid from the international committee and spend it on lavish homes and other luxuries. They did not have 5 star hotels (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/aug/08/gaza-first-five-star-hotel) and open markets full of food to purchase.
4
It is striking how rarely the media reports the inflammatory remarks of Palestinian leaders, or their encouragement of violence. The Palestianian schools teach hatred, their cartoons sow the seeds of violence. Fascinating how reporting the facts of extremists is somehow Islamophobic. The facts are friendly; anything less is intellectually dishonest.
36
I would respectfully suggest to my fellow Jewish-Americans who moved to Israel to come back home, especially those who are living in disputed territory. As an American Jew, I'm sick of Israelis and Palestinians alike. Somehow in Brooklyn, Israeli-Americans, Jewish-Americans, Palestinian-Americans, and Muslim-Americans all manage to live together in peace. Maybe there is something wrong with the so-called human beings living in the so-called "Holy Land."
182
There's nothing wrong with the "Land" there that should make it unlivable, just the desecration that title of "Holy" puts on it.
That's right. Remember American Jewish colonialism is only legitimate - In America.
1
Good point Mr. Grayson. I think the fundamental problem with the holy land is that it's wholly fundamentalist. Fundamentalists generally are hellbent on war, and impossible to negotiate with.
Driven to brutal terror against civilians who choose to live in a country that supports the oppression of their people -- let's raise a voice in support of these poor, young, possibly misguided freedom-fighters ... the Tsarnaev brothers (Boston marathon bombers).
Oh, that's different because . . . .
Oh, that's different because . . . .
11
Because they were no different than American shooters?
2
The highest standard of living enjoyed by any non-elite Arab Muslims in the world is to be found in Israel. Perhaps you could switch to reading actual news sites instead of blogs.
3
Oppressed people will always resist oppression. Sometimes, like here, they do so in horrific and ugly ways. Still, that needs to be situated against the broader horror and ugliness of military occupation. And that's the point: Jerusalem is an occupied city, and for Palestinians there everyday life is brutal. Yet, that brutal context is wholly missing from this article. Remove the context, and it is easy to label the gory and apparently random knifing of Jews on city streets "mayhem." Put the gory and random reality of Israel's military domination of Palestinian society back into the picture, and you can see it for what it is: chickens coming home to roost.
30
Au contraire, Jerusalem is not occupied. Jerusalem is and has been the capital of the Sovereign State of Israel since 1947, and ancient Israel since ~2,000 B.C.
The ones who are occupying are the jordanians who illegally attacked Israel in 1948 and 1967.
The ones who are occupying are the jordanians who illegally attacked Israel in 1948 and 1967.
3
Is West Jerusalem occupied? Or are murders there acceptable against the broader horror...?
1
This violence is the only way Palestinians have to protest. They are people living in quasi-slavery, in what is, for them, a police state they have no role in. These are not "murderers and inciters" any more than any group forced to live in these conditions are.
The message isn't to arm the civilian Jewish population. This will lead to the slaughter of large numbers of Palestinians. But then, the current Israeli government is a right wing reactionary entity that is beginning to look very similar to other enslaving governments.
The message isn't to arm the civilian Jewish population. This will lead to the slaughter of large numbers of Palestinians. But then, the current Israeli government is a right wing reactionary entity that is beginning to look very similar to other enslaving governments.
170
I doubt you will be so sympathetic if it's your friends and families getting stabbed. Lashing out in random acts of violence is, in general, a terrible way to get what you want.
5
Gainful employment at Bezeq does not constitute "quasi-slavery". That is regular full time employment at likely much better pay than in a similar position at any similar utility in any other country in the Middle East.
Yet a murderer drives his truck into civilians in what (post NYT correction) is actually WEST Jerusalem NOT the occupied territories and even this is in bounds? This is unadulterated hatred.
Yet a murderer drives his truck into civilians in what (post NYT correction) is actually WEST Jerusalem NOT the occupied territories and even this is in bounds? This is unadulterated hatred.
6
"This violence [stabbing civilians] is the only way Palestinians have to protest." Instead of trying to refute your point, I'll just let you stare at your own words and decide whether they are true.
4
The question is if this incident will accelerate out of control, hence Netanyahu's emergency meeting of Israeli security officials.
The article reveals in the attitudes of Israeli citizens a cavalier, stay-fast position:
"'Why not put them under curfew?' Ms. Ben Zichri, 59, asked of the city’s 300,000 Palestinian residents. 'I should be able to walk freely.'”
There is no solution to this turmoil. No solution can deal with the people who express their anger and therefore cause the violence. But the more violence each side perpetrates, the more irrelevant each becomes to the world. No country wants to be mired in this dispute. Despite the pro-Israel stance of Republican presidential primary candidates, no intelligent person wants to kick this hornets' nest. Who wants to get physically involved to help Netanyahu fight his murderers and inciters?
These incidents will always happen. People like Ms. Ben Zichri are comfortable with them, so long as they can walk freely about.
The article reveals in the attitudes of Israeli citizens a cavalier, stay-fast position:
"'Why not put them under curfew?' Ms. Ben Zichri, 59, asked of the city’s 300,000 Palestinian residents. 'I should be able to walk freely.'”
There is no solution to this turmoil. No solution can deal with the people who express their anger and therefore cause the violence. But the more violence each side perpetrates, the more irrelevant each becomes to the world. No country wants to be mired in this dispute. Despite the pro-Israel stance of Republican presidential primary candidates, no intelligent person wants to kick this hornets' nest. Who wants to get physically involved to help Netanyahu fight his murderers and inciters?
These incidents will always happen. People like Ms. Ben Zichri are comfortable with them, so long as they can walk freely about.
9
There's a reason why in recent memory we see nothing but violence as a means of expressing one's views and solving disputes in the Arab world; it is clearly the language of the majority of Muslims, and it is an acceptable way of life.
It's clear from the Readers' Picks why Palestinians and in this case quite a few Israeli Arabs time and again revert to terrorism whenever they get riled up by their leadership; because world opinion is clearly in their favor regardless of how many innocent men, women and children they murder on the streets of the holy land.
It's clear from the Readers' Picks why Palestinians and in this case quite a few Israeli Arabs time and again revert to terrorism whenever they get riled up by their leadership; because world opinion is clearly in their favor regardless of how many innocent men, women and children they murder on the streets of the holy land.
18
The sheer number of casualties is unimaginable.
What's unimaginable about 18? Or if all Palestinians were eliminated, say, then 4.4 million is fairly imaginable too.
Some of these comments are astounding beyond belief. Can you imagine a similar situation in the United States where police are criticized for killing assailants in middle of attacking citizens? They are also historically ignorant. Palestinian leadership is hardly blameless.Whenever faced with a choice of achieving something tangible and possible over the perfect, the leadership (not necessarily the common people) opted for the ideal and sacrificed the possible. This goes back to the original 1947 partition. It was repeated after the 1967 war. Had Yasser Arafat accepted the Camp David accords in 1990's, he would have been closer to a state now (assuming they were implemented with good will on both sides). The outlines of a deal are fairly well known: withdrawal of most Israeli communities, land swaps for the largest ones, a sharing arrangement in Jerusalem. This is not the Palestinian "ideal" but it was on the table when Yithak Rabin was prime minister and again Ehud Olmert was prime minister. As Casey might said, look it up. Weak Palestinian leadership, fear of Palestinian maximalists (Hamas) are some reasons cited for rejection. Yes, Netanyahu won on a fear vote: Israel withdrew from Gaza and got Hamas. It withdrew from South Lebanon and got Hizbollah. The Israeli moderates have been undercut by Palestinian actions where few now believe the Palestinians want to cut a deal. They'd rather hold out and hope the world community will do their hard work for them.
25
Talk about historic amnesia. What Arafat rejected was an offer of multiple bantustans in the West Bank surrounded by Israeli territory. And those are not Israeli "communities," those are illegal settlements established by Israel on land stolen from the Palestinians. Your myth of an innocent Israel is simply a myth.
1
Can you imagine if the U.S. held half its population under occupation, conducted random "security raids" daily, kicking in doors and bulldozing homes of suspected wrongdoers, Held these people in ghettos, and used the military and drone strikes against them?
1
Can you imagine if the US was the size of RI and the rest of the US and Canada were ISIS and they were coming into RI and murdering us? I'm sure you would have a lot of sympathy for ISIS, right?
2
This latest flareup must not be viewed as an isolated event, but as a continuation of a massive regional meltdown. Virtually every nation from Morocco to Pakistan is involved in a shooting war, either directly or through proxies. Instability is not a strong enough term. It's more like chaos.
With this backdrop, Israel must exercise restraint. The traditional "I'm right you're wrong, I'm good you're bad" arguments no longer serve any purpose. The place is a powder keg waiting to explode. If a violent conflict emerges between the Israelis and Palestinians, that keg could blow.
One WMD could set it off. All of these separate wars could merge into one big one. Big wars have started over much less. These people on both sides must be made to realize that they are playing with fire, atomic fire. This turmoil must stop now. If it is not contained, the surrounding fighters and proxy warrior nations may turn on Israel. If that happens, Israel will hit back hard and they have something to hit with. I'm not taking sides, just trying to be sensible. Sensibility is all that we have left to prevent WWIII. Sensibility is in short supply.
With this backdrop, Israel must exercise restraint. The traditional "I'm right you're wrong, I'm good you're bad" arguments no longer serve any purpose. The place is a powder keg waiting to explode. If a violent conflict emerges between the Israelis and Palestinians, that keg could blow.
One WMD could set it off. All of these separate wars could merge into one big one. Big wars have started over much less. These people on both sides must be made to realize that they are playing with fire, atomic fire. This turmoil must stop now. If it is not contained, the surrounding fighters and proxy warrior nations may turn on Israel. If that happens, Israel will hit back hard and they have something to hit with. I'm not taking sides, just trying to be sensible. Sensibility is all that we have left to prevent WWIII. Sensibility is in short supply.
2
It's no coincidence that this has all happened on Bibi's watch .... he is no Rabin. Israel needs a negotiator and it ain't him. Netanyahu is as stiff necked as stiff neck gets. Until the only democracy in the region gets serious about their responsibility to negotiate a compromised peace, there will be none.
9
What sort of democracy prevents Muslims from owning 99% of the land based on their faith? What sort of democracy has two-thirds of its population in perpetual occupation because it wants to keep a ethnic Jewish majority able to vote?
8
Three dead Israeli's is a tragedy that makes the front page and warrants an "emergency meeting of top security officials and ministers" while here in the good old USA 30 gun deaths a DAY is business as usual. My heart goes out to all who suffer from this, here and there.
8
People in this country don't care about the gun murders of innocent people here every day, or the fact that universities, schools, everyplace and every person is held hostage to the gun culture. They prefer to lecture and preach about other countries rights. Now if you go into a lecture hall you will get shot by the person who disagrees with your opinion! If you are a first grader at school you get to be shot! If you are hanging out you get to be shot! All brought to you by hypocritical and arrogant. Americans.
Many more would have been wounded if it was not for the heroics of soldiers like the soldier who was hurt but fell on the attackers weapon to prevent more injuries and ordinary people like nunchuk man, and selfie man. I think you would be happier if more Israeli civilians were murdered
5
I'm in Israel. (Not in the West Bank). I am truly sorry that this country- as has EVERY country in the world- has done regrettable things. Believe me, most Israelis want to find a peaceful solution. But in the meantime, I am walking my children to school with mace in my pocket, just in case a person should start stabbing me or my children for the simple reason that I'm a Jew.
According to some commentators, these actions are completely reasonable. So I'd like to ask you- if the Native American population starting stabbing random people in almost every city in America, everyone would think this was ok? Just like the Palestinians, they DO have legitimate grievances. And what about if every African-American decided to exact personal revenge for the injustice committed upon their ancestors? And I'm sure you wouldn't fight back, or arm yourselves, right? I hope you never have to find out.
In the meantime, don't expect us to roll over and die, even if you disapprove of us or our actions. Your disapproval is based on falsehoods, misplaced sympathies and a complete removal from reality.
According to some commentators, these actions are completely reasonable. So I'd like to ask you- if the Native American population starting stabbing random people in almost every city in America, everyone would think this was ok? Just like the Palestinians, they DO have legitimate grievances. And what about if every African-American decided to exact personal revenge for the injustice committed upon their ancestors? And I'm sure you wouldn't fight back, or arm yourselves, right? I hope you never have to find out.
In the meantime, don't expect us to roll over and die, even if you disapprove of us or our actions. Your disapproval is based on falsehoods, misplaced sympathies and a complete removal from reality.
380
The Native and African American you mentioned have legitimate grievances. The difference is they are full US Citizens. That is not the case in Israel. If it were, your current president might just be a Palestinian.
2
When was the last time the American airforce bombed Native Americans on their reservations? Hint: NEVER
2
shuvie,
You say "for the simple reason that you're a Jew" but many people do not believe these things are done simply because people are Jews.
If that were so you can bet that there would be world-wide outrage-from me for sure.
You say "for the simple reason that you're a Jew" but many people do not believe these things are done simply because people are Jews.
If that were so you can bet that there would be world-wide outrage-from me for sure.
According to the title of the article three dead Israelis is a mayhem. I wonder how many Palestinians must be killed before the NYT calls it a 'mayhem". No double standards please. Use the same expression regardless of the victims' nationality. Otherwise, your newspaper confirms the widely held view that you are more sympathetic to the one side compared to the other.
17
You don't call all these attacks mayhem. So what do you call it
1
When Palestinians were murdered a few days ago the paper called it murder. Here, they are "left dead". What?
1
Israelis are way too content with the occupation of millions of people now for 48 years. This is the result of their indifference to the fact that they have forcefully displaced the natives and prefer to ignore their misery.
No sympathies here.
No sympathies here.
25
Whose fault is that? It's not the Israelis. They've been trying for peace for years, but no deal is ever good enough, because the muslims just want all the Jews dead. I have no sympathies for anyone but the Israelis.
3
What these Palestinians did was reprehensible but there needs to be more context in any story coming out of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. All the real power in the region is with the Israelis and the Palestinians act irrationally out of frustration. This is an occupation, nothing less, and the West Bank settlements along with the annexation of Jerusalem just exacerbates the situation further.
217
The context that is missing is that Hamas and Iran fan the flames of this violence, encouraging the spread of misinformation regarding Israeli intentions for the status quo on the Mount and urging a pathological level of violence. You seem so ready to explain away Palestinian irrationality as simply frustration - but that's a cop out and a reverse racism (they simply can't help themselves!?!). These are martyrdom-seeking murder sprees by women, children (who are clearly being influenced) and otherwise normal men (Bezeq employee who shocked his coworkers) who are buying into a nihilistic, ISIS-inspired ideology. Palestinian society is actually more threatened by this breakdown in reason that Israel.
2
Does anyone remember who started it all in 1948?
1
I am sick of hearing about how the power imbalance leads to no other option but violence. I don't know, but maybe you are unfamiliar with Tibet, with the history of Gandhi in India, with Mandela in South Africa, with MLK Jr in the US. Jews were oppressed for centuries in Europe without turning to violence.
Native Americans are plenty oppressed here, I don't see them out killing.
Native Americans are plenty oppressed here, I don't see them out killing.
3
All the comments supporting Palestinian terrorists in 2015 are really astounding, when the Syrian civil war has killed ten times as many civilians as all the Arab/Israeli wars combined. Last week, here in Melbourne a 15 year old who was fed a daily dose of ISIS propaganda online murdered a civilian police IT guy the day after his sister flew to Turkey to join ISIS. The access to violent material is nothing compared to what the Palestinian culture inculcates in their children and therefore the modern version of radical Islam has reached Israel. Just go to MEMRI TV and watch that for an hour, like the preacher last week in Gaza holding up a knife and saying you should attack in groups, just like the bus attack in this article. When a 13 and 15 year old child is motivated by their culture to attack another 13 year old who is riding his bike down the street, simply because he is Jewish, you must understand that this is not about settlements, or the occupation. The Palestinians are not children, they chose their leaders to be a corrupt autocracy with Tanzim militias and the Muslim Brotherhood in Gaza which persecutes homesexuals and christians. They both glorify martyrdom and pays prisoners who are in jail for murdering civilians and until the readers of the Times and the international community stops holding Israel to a double standard, nothing will change.
29
The 15 year old in Australia was shot by police as he was surrounded by well armed police. A 15 year old was shot by police in Israel as he was stabbing 2 victims, including a 13 year old.
But the commentators here agree that the Israeli action was a "field execution" while the Australian policy had the right to defend themselves as they are under attack from terror.
Of course, these same commentators think the return of indigenous Jews to their homeland and the establishment of a state in a small sliver of that land, pursuant to the same international procedure that has set boundaries in the whole world, is colonialism. But England sending its convicts and setting up a colony managed by the colonial office is not. and kidnapping Aboriginal children and destroying indigenous culture is one of those issues of the historical past one cannot undo.
I guess principles are very malleable depending if Jews are involved or not.
But the commentators here agree that the Israeli action was a "field execution" while the Australian policy had the right to defend themselves as they are under attack from terror.
Of course, these same commentators think the return of indigenous Jews to their homeland and the establishment of a state in a small sliver of that land, pursuant to the same international procedure that has set boundaries in the whole world, is colonialism. But England sending its convicts and setting up a colony managed by the colonial office is not. and kidnapping Aboriginal children and destroying indigenous culture is one of those issues of the historical past one cannot undo.
I guess principles are very malleable depending if Jews are involved or not.
3
I read a half dozen or so of these comments before I stopped. No one seems too concerned with the individuals injured or killed, only the "bigger picture" of national guilt, right and wrong, and continued battle.
That type of thinking generally leads to more slaughter.
That type of thinking generally leads to more slaughter.
6
Obviously Israel is in dire straits and, since its 1947 creation, things have always gotten worse. Its foundation was the result of global guilt feelings after some 7 million Jews were killed during WW2 and all that in little Europe - the Europeans especially strongly supported the UN in its 1947 creation of Israel hoping that the problem would go away. It seems we are about to come full circle on this selfish perspective unless Israel becomes part of the Middle East rather than fighting it and Europe, especially Germany, understands that sweeping things under the carpet always end up in a bad smell - Europe is part of the problem and should work much harder to become part of the solution.
4
Israelis and Palestinians will never live together in peace, the only solution is 2 countries. Would they be a couple, they would have divorced a long time ago. One should not force together what does not belong together.
3
This is what happens when you elect a war monger.
Netanyahu's worst nightmare is peace, as it would destroy his power base.
His "raison d'etre" is creating endless conflict.
If Israel wants less violence, then vote out your provocateur, and stop building in disputed territory. Until then, don't expect any sympathy, as you have brought this on yourselves.
Netanyahu's worst nightmare is peace, as it would destroy his power base.
His "raison d'etre" is creating endless conflict.
If Israel wants less violence, then vote out your provocateur, and stop building in disputed territory. Until then, don't expect any sympathy, as you have brought this on yourselves.
14
You've got the wrong 'war monger'. It was Hamas that was elected. Death and destruction seem to be all they want.
4
Maybe Netanyahu should have arrested those settlers who burned that baby to death this summer. At least that way Palestinians would know he wasn't just paying lip service to their concerns and the settlers would know there are consequences to their murderous actions. Now we see the real price Israelis have to pay for his cowardice in the face of these settlers aggression.
15
We'll be going on 50 years of Israel's control of the 1967 borders. It's time to recognize these as Israel's sovereign borders (which of course has been the practical fact for half a century) and have the world affirm Israel's right to exist in a secure state.
Maybe then will the Palestinians stop clinging to the hope of violent war to drive Israel out of existence.
Maybe then will the Palestinians stop clinging to the hope of violent war to drive Israel out of existence.
9
Israel has refused to define its borders, Sir.
and you need a history lesson as to why the Palestinians, ethnically cleansed from their homeland by incomers, resist happily agreeing to never be able to return to their homes as people who never set foot there claim a divine right.
http://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/2010/06/17/top-ten-myths-about-the-i...
and you need a history lesson as to why the Palestinians, ethnically cleansed from their homeland by incomers, resist happily agreeing to never be able to return to their homes as people who never set foot there claim a divine right.
http://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/2010/06/17/top-ten-myths-about-the-i...
1
In 1990 the UN sanctioned international military action against Iraq because one nation cannot annex the territory of another by military invasion.
This basic principle of international law applies fully to Israel. Those who want peace for Israel should encourage it to agree on borders with Palestine based on the Green Line with offsetting land swaps.
This basic principle of international law applies fully to Israel. Those who want peace for Israel should encourage it to agree on borders with Palestine based on the Green Line with offsetting land swaps.
1
If Israel wants to annex the territory, then it should be responsible for and give equal rights to the people who live there. That's international law. Israel wants it both ways, to be a brutal occupier and call its self a democracy
I'm in Jerusalem and spent a great day in the Jewish Quarter. What's going on here doesn't even begin to compare to the wanton gun violence (often resulting in mass slaughter) we experience weekly in America. These incidences would probably barely rise to "newsworthy" at home. Our best gift to Israelis of all backgrounds ) is the empathy we Americans have for them which arises from our common vulnerability to violence. Targeted or wanton, violence is awful, but I'm finding the news coverage terribly overblown, as always. When I express empathy, mentioning the 19 people shot in my local shopping center, with 6 deaths and my congresswoman Gabi Giffords shot in the head, my friends and colleagues here seem to realize this is far from a local phenomenon and take strength from that. At least America's domestic carnage gives us a platform to speak strength into Israelis of all backgrounds at this difficult time.
71
Comparing gun violence in the United States and the current violence in Israel ignores their quite different causes. In the US, we are dealing with the mentally ill having easy access to guns. In Israel, they are dealing with the predictable violence that comes from an oppressed people. The only common denominator is that in both cases the responsible governments are unwilling to take any real action to get at the root cause of the problem.
1
One must make the distinction between psychopathic violence committed by a first world country armed to the teeth with all manner of weaponry and the consequences of decades of oppression of an occupied people. These two violence phenomena may have the same consequences but they cry out for very different solutions and introspection by the respective governments and citizenry.
1
Does the Israeli government believe it can maintain a status quo with the Palestinians by acting as if this mass of humanity is less human than they are? Is their only solution to inflict multiples of violence in response to the violence committed by desperate Palestinians and blaming them for their wretched situation?
15
Let's try this again. There is plenty of wrong on both sides. That being said, a two-state solution is impossible as long as one of the states refuses to accept the existence of the other state and has vowed to destroy it. When the only compromise position acceptable to the other side is your death, then there is no chance of a solution. Suicide as a pre-condition of peace is not a viable position if you expect to get your wishes.
12
Sure, more guns are going to solve the problems just like they do in America. Question of the day - Is trigger-happy Netanyahu going to to be allowed to escalate this situation and try to cause another wider war in the area or are Good People with clear heads in Israel and Palestine going to step in and neutralize the situation? President Obama and war mongers - Stay Out.
8
Here on Planet Earth we find calls for "Good People" risible. If "Good People" could "step in" and take charge we wouldn't have problems in Syria, Africa, America, etc. & etc.
1
Note that none of these assailants were residents of the West Bank or Gaza Strip. They weren't subject to embargos and curfews and job restrictions. Apologists will claim "solidarity", but it's genocidal murder.
15
I sure seems that Netanyahu is the most dangerous man in the Middle East. He really thinks he can deal with Putin? Putin hates Jews almost as much as Gays. Remember "Churtzpaaaaaa" from Bachman? Thats Bibi with a dash of Hubris.
1
So the Palestinians will run rampant, murder and maim innocent people over yet another blood libel about the Jews trying to take over the Al Aqsa Mosque; then if Israel places a curfew on their neighborhoods or restricts their movement to stop the killing, true to form the Palestinian propaganda machine will whine "apartheid" and Jew-haters along with looney Leftists will eat it up. But in the end the Palestinians again true to form will only dig themselves deeper into a hole and then wonder why they don't have a state.
"The Jews trying to take over the Al Aqsa Mosque". The Arabs dust off this shameless lie every generation or so. The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem Haj Amin al Husseni put it to good use starting in 1920 resulting in a pogrom that cost 47 Jewish dead and 150 wounded (Husseni went on to become Hitler's guest during the war helping the Nazis recruit Balkan Muslims for the SS). And now the supposed moderate partner for peace Mahmoud Abbas continues the tradition.
The irony of course is that if Israel wanted to take over the mosque or destroy it, it would have done so in 1967 when it won a war of attempted annihilation by five Arab countries including Jordan, which prohibited Jews regardless of nationality from praying at the Wailing Wall when it occupied East Jerusalem. Instead Israel tried a gesture of peace and left the Temple Mount under Muslim Waqf control. This is the price.
"The Jews trying to take over the Al Aqsa Mosque". The Arabs dust off this shameless lie every generation or so. The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem Haj Amin al Husseni put it to good use starting in 1920 resulting in a pogrom that cost 47 Jewish dead and 150 wounded (Husseni went on to become Hitler's guest during the war helping the Nazis recruit Balkan Muslims for the SS). And now the supposed moderate partner for peace Mahmoud Abbas continues the tradition.
The irony of course is that if Israel wanted to take over the mosque or destroy it, it would have done so in 1967 when it won a war of attempted annihilation by five Arab countries including Jordan, which prohibited Jews regardless of nationality from praying at the Wailing Wall when it occupied East Jerusalem. Instead Israel tried a gesture of peace and left the Temple Mount under Muslim Waqf control. This is the price.
22
all the Israelis attacked were civilians. The Palestinians who were killed or shot were killed in the commission of trying to kill Israelis and Jews. In some occasions, they tried grabbing soldiers guns in order to create more death. Perhaps why they are using knives is because their preachers and leadership are exhorting them to do so. (http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2015/10/12/cut-them-into-body-parts-isla... From Fri. Oct 2nd- Thursday Oct. 8th there were over 440 terror attacks recorded. incidents occurred throughout Israel including in Jaffa, Haifa, Lod, Krayot, Tel Aviv, Petach Tikvah, Afula, Nazareth, Akko, Eyal Junction on Route 6, Taybe Bridge in the Sharon, Kiryat Gat, Ashkelon, Tamra in the Galilee, Hura in the Negev, Beer Sheva, Umm al Fahm, Jerusalem, Shomron, Binyamin, Jordan Valley, Hevron Hills, and Gush Etzion
12
Had the Arab nations surrounding Israel and their multitudes won any of the modern wars of annihilation against the Jewish State of Israel in the 1940's 1950's, 1960's and 1970's or any of the lesser ongoing wars of annihilation against the Jews and Jewish State of Israel during the last 75 years since the State's founding, we wouldn't be having these 'Jewish Problems'.
While constant Palestinian education about the devilish animalistic occupying Jews in their classrooms, media and Mosques serves to foment their citizens, reality on the ground demonstrates that modern Jews, much to the disappointment of most of the world will defend themselves while they make the world a better place for those who recognize the Jewish State.
Thus the headlines...."after running over an orthodox rabbi and using a meat cleaver on several of the Rabbi's neighbors, the Palestinian attacker was shot dead as the world cried 'foul' against the Jews yet again".
While constant Palestinian education about the devilish animalistic occupying Jews in their classrooms, media and Mosques serves to foment their citizens, reality on the ground demonstrates that modern Jews, much to the disappointment of most of the world will defend themselves while they make the world a better place for those who recognize the Jewish State.
Thus the headlines...."after running over an orthodox rabbi and using a meat cleaver on several of the Rabbi's neighbors, the Palestinian attacker was shot dead as the world cried 'foul' against the Jews yet again".
17
The Arabs could of course show Islam's benevolent side by admitting an 8th Century caliph built Al Aqsa built on top of Judaism's holiest site. It could show the power of Allah's love and understanding by encouraging people of all faiths in good will to pray there and experience its holiness because of the ties all three Abrahamic faiths have to the site. The Arabs could show their love of truth and tolerance by freely admitting that the Jews are not foreigners having ties to this land and this site stretching back over 3000 years including building Jerusalem in the first place and fighting and dying defending the city from pagan conquerers by the hundreds of thousands. But the Arabs won't. The Palestinians prefers to keep it all to themselves, to hide behind shameless lies knowing Jew-haters eat it up; and unable to exterminate the Jews physically as the Nazis tried and failed, they will try to exterminate Jewish history instead. Understandable I suppose from a people who have little of their own.
24
Amazing comments. Israeli's are being stabbed and murdered by Palestinians, and Palestinians are driving their cars into people waiting at bus stops but somehow it is the fault of innocent Israeli men, women, and children.
In the Palestinian territories after a suicide bomber detonates themselves on Israeli busses, in Israeli restaurants, shopping malls, supermarkets, schools, and nightclubs the Palestinians name streets in their honor. After Israelis are blown to pieces the Palestinians dance in the street and pass out candy. Palestinian media constantly calls for the murder of all the Jews.
Did we express sympathy for the terrorists who murdered and maimed innocent people at the Boston Marathon? Did we express sympathy for the nineteen men who drove planes into the Pentagon and the World Trade Center? Did we express sympathy for the racist who walked into a church in Charleston and murdered nine innocent people who were praying?
The American and European governments expressed their sympathy towards the Jewish people after six million Jews were murdered in the Holocaust. From the ashes of the Holocaust Israel was reborn.
A strong Jewish State that defends its own people apparently is an affront to the world community. The world prefers defenseless Jews and the hatred and anger of the world community when the Jewish people dares to defend itself from people calling for their destruction is sickening. Anti-semitism is sadly alive and well.
In the Palestinian territories after a suicide bomber detonates themselves on Israeli busses, in Israeli restaurants, shopping malls, supermarkets, schools, and nightclubs the Palestinians name streets in their honor. After Israelis are blown to pieces the Palestinians dance in the street and pass out candy. Palestinian media constantly calls for the murder of all the Jews.
Did we express sympathy for the terrorists who murdered and maimed innocent people at the Boston Marathon? Did we express sympathy for the nineteen men who drove planes into the Pentagon and the World Trade Center? Did we express sympathy for the racist who walked into a church in Charleston and murdered nine innocent people who were praying?
The American and European governments expressed their sympathy towards the Jewish people after six million Jews were murdered in the Holocaust. From the ashes of the Holocaust Israel was reborn.
A strong Jewish State that defends its own people apparently is an affront to the world community. The world prefers defenseless Jews and the hatred and anger of the world community when the Jewish people dares to defend itself from people calling for their destruction is sickening. Anti-semitism is sadly alive and well.
51
No, a strong Jewish state that keeps more than half its population under occupation and relegates them to second class status, builds illegal colonies on occupied land, one that is constructing an Apartheid system, one that constantly provokes, and uses that provocation to kill multiple numbers of Palestinians, all on the dime of the U.S. taxpayers.
People do understand the context of the Nat Turner revolt, so yes, it is possible to condemn terror and ne'er stand what drives it in some cases. If Israel and its supporters continue to pretend that Israel is innocent, it may make you feel better, but it won't end terrorism. On either side.
"................. sympathy towards the Jewish people after six million Jews were murdered in the Holocaust. "
What does the holocaust have to do with today's Palestinians, or those of 75 years ago? Furthermore, this is the more reason for YOU to be sympathetic towards the plight of Palestinians, who did nothing to you. It was Hitler's Nazi Germany that committed the holocaust atrocities; not the farmers and sheep herders of Palestine. The Torah says an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth to stress justice. Your justice is in Germany, not Palestine. You can't simply choose a place to subject people to suffering that you experienced at someone else's hands. Certainly not based on Biblical references of 4000 years.
What does the holocaust have to do with today's Palestinians, or those of 75 years ago? Furthermore, this is the more reason for YOU to be sympathetic towards the plight of Palestinians, who did nothing to you. It was Hitler's Nazi Germany that committed the holocaust atrocities; not the farmers and sheep herders of Palestine. The Torah says an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth to stress justice. Your justice is in Germany, not Palestine. You can't simply choose a place to subject people to suffering that you experienced at someone else's hands. Certainly not based on Biblical references of 4000 years.
1
"Mr. Barkat, who last week urged residents with licensed guns to start carrying them in the streets, added: “This has to stop, even if residents pay a price in their quality of life. We need to stop this and take control of the reality we live in.”
“Muslims, we want to live in peace, but the Netanyahu government doesn’t, they’re extremists,” said Mr. Diq, 48. “We are people of peace, but whoever harms our mosque, that’s a red line.”
How in the world can these two sides ever, ever talk to each other and be reasonable when people on both sides pour gasoline on the flames?
The rhetoric on both sides must calm down. And the reprisals and attacks by both sides must come to an end as well. Neither side will do well if vigilantes and intifada terrorists attack innocents.
What will ultimately happen is that if the Jewish people are pushed into a situation in which only force can prevail then, even at the risk of international criticism for exercising the right of self defense and self preservation, the Palestinians will bear the brunt of the death toll. And the enmity between both sides will grow even deeper. Perhaps that is what Palestinian leaders really want. They will have their martyrs and the conflict will go on.
Of course if the Israelis respond with force Mr. Obama will condemn the action as too brutal and unnecessary.
In some ways, though, these attacks in Israel are no different than living in Chicago or other American city. But the Israelis will relax gun laws.
“Muslims, we want to live in peace, but the Netanyahu government doesn’t, they’re extremists,” said Mr. Diq, 48. “We are people of peace, but whoever harms our mosque, that’s a red line.”
How in the world can these two sides ever, ever talk to each other and be reasonable when people on both sides pour gasoline on the flames?
The rhetoric on both sides must calm down. And the reprisals and attacks by both sides must come to an end as well. Neither side will do well if vigilantes and intifada terrorists attack innocents.
What will ultimately happen is that if the Jewish people are pushed into a situation in which only force can prevail then, even at the risk of international criticism for exercising the right of self defense and self preservation, the Palestinians will bear the brunt of the death toll. And the enmity between both sides will grow even deeper. Perhaps that is what Palestinian leaders really want. They will have their martyrs and the conflict will go on.
Of course if the Israelis respond with force Mr. Obama will condemn the action as too brutal and unnecessary.
In some ways, though, these attacks in Israel are no different than living in Chicago or other American city. But the Israelis will relax gun laws.
1
The violent rhetoric and the violence will continue as long as Netanyahu remains in office.
1
Without assigning blame (though it's awfully tempting and few would be left out) I always wonder what will happen to the region in 20 or 30 years. The Palestinian population growth at some point will make Israelis a minority in their own country. Then what happens? Apartheid?
A two state solution seems the only way to avoid this happening. I'm sure that won't solve all problems, but they have to start somewhere.
A two state solution seems the only way to avoid this happening. I'm sure that won't solve all problems, but they have to start somewhere.
8
There is a wall and an elaborate checkpoint. There are also restrictions on foreign aid to Palestine. It is already seen by many, as apartheid.
the wall was built to keep suicide bombers out.
1. Jews walking on their holiest site is "incitement". Therefore, violence is permissible. This is the Progressive, Human Rights position.
2. When we study the historical conquests of Jerusalem by non-Jews, Muslim and Christian and their restrictions on Jews accessing their holy sites, we bask in our evolution as we marvel at the regressiveness of this persecution.
1. US police shoot someone every 8 hours. Washington State police were cleared in shooting to death a fleeing suspect who had thrown rocks. Cleveland police were justified in shooting a 12 year old on suspicion he had a firearm, without even talking to him.
2. Israeli police who shoot Palestinians throwing barrages of boulders, including at cars causing deadly accidents, refusing to drop weapons, mid-stabbing or in possession of seized officers' guns are acting with excessive force.
1. US Drone killings, including of those who "incite" are legal and justifiable to keep Americans safe from terror.
2. Israeli killing of a weapon wielding individual in the heat of a crime is unjustifiable and "extra-judicial".
1. NYT HL "Airstrike Hits Hospital" means US intentionally targeted a hospital, burning patients in their beds. Collateral damage is expected in "war"
2. NYT HL "Retaliatory Israeli Airstrike Kills Woman and Child" means a house collapses after Israel hits a nearby ammo dump in response to rockets fired on its civilians. War crime.
Go ahead, hypocrites. Make your 1,0000 comments.
2. When we study the historical conquests of Jerusalem by non-Jews, Muslim and Christian and their restrictions on Jews accessing their holy sites, we bask in our evolution as we marvel at the regressiveness of this persecution.
1. US police shoot someone every 8 hours. Washington State police were cleared in shooting to death a fleeing suspect who had thrown rocks. Cleveland police were justified in shooting a 12 year old on suspicion he had a firearm, without even talking to him.
2. Israeli police who shoot Palestinians throwing barrages of boulders, including at cars causing deadly accidents, refusing to drop weapons, mid-stabbing or in possession of seized officers' guns are acting with excessive force.
1. US Drone killings, including of those who "incite" are legal and justifiable to keep Americans safe from terror.
2. Israeli killing of a weapon wielding individual in the heat of a crime is unjustifiable and "extra-judicial".
1. NYT HL "Airstrike Hits Hospital" means US intentionally targeted a hospital, burning patients in their beds. Collateral damage is expected in "war"
2. NYT HL "Retaliatory Israeli Airstrike Kills Woman and Child" means a house collapses after Israel hits a nearby ammo dump in response to rockets fired on its civilians. War crime.
Go ahead, hypocrites. Make your 1,0000 comments.
35
I could never understand why Israel gets grilled just for fighting back at those trying to kill them while if this was any other country, that wouldn't be the case. Where is the outcry when Syria and Saudi Arabia were doing airstrikes to stop rebels that even deaths even greater than what Israel did? Better yet, how about when Russia annexed Chehnya from Ukraine? I could even make the claim about how the Mossad got condemned so much for taking out Sheik Ahmed Yassin, the spiritual leader of Hamas, when at the same time, I didn't hear a huge group doing the same thing for the NAVY Seals managed to kill Osama bin Laden, the leader of Al Qaeda, years later. My guess is because they aren't Israel, so that they can't be condemned the say, which makes me feel that there is a bias against Israel and possibly Jews. Overall, anyone who condemns Israel for reacting the same way against terrorists while not doing the same for all other countries is nothing but a hypocrite.
Why are all the pro-Israel comments so vociferous, aggressive and personal whereas the pro-Palestinian comments are about the abuse of the rights of the Palestinian people. Speaks volumes to the type of people involved in this 'discussion'.
what people who want peace do this
http://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/260415/palestinian-authority-murder-ince...
Every month, according to the bylaws of the Palestinian Authority (PA) transfers 17 million shekels to those who have been convicted of first degree murder or attempted murder and who are now serving their sentences behind bars. The PA also allocates funds to families of killers, with special grants for families of killers who die as while committing an act of murder. According to the PA distribution formula, the more severe the attack conducted by the killer and the longer the prison sentence, the more the stipend is increased proportionately.Amad Awad and Hakim Awad, who brutally murdered five members of the Fogel family in Itamar (including a 3 month old), have so far received almost 75,000 shekels each. and they’ll continue to receive stipends that will even reach 12,000 shekels a month. When calculating the total sum throughout their lives, they will each receive 2.4 million shekels for the multiple murders they committed.
As mentioned, every month, the PA allots 17 million shekels to funding those who are convicted of murder and attempted murder…in addition to grants to the murderers’ families. More than a few murder convicts admit during interrogation that they want to commit terror attacks in order to receive the payment.
In other words, you could call this an incentive to murder.
http://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/260415/palestinian-authority-murder-ince...
Every month, according to the bylaws of the Palestinian Authority (PA) transfers 17 million shekels to those who have been convicted of first degree murder or attempted murder and who are now serving their sentences behind bars. The PA also allocates funds to families of killers, with special grants for families of killers who die as while committing an act of murder. According to the PA distribution formula, the more severe the attack conducted by the killer and the longer the prison sentence, the more the stipend is increased proportionately.Amad Awad and Hakim Awad, who brutally murdered five members of the Fogel family in Itamar (including a 3 month old), have so far received almost 75,000 shekels each. and they’ll continue to receive stipends that will even reach 12,000 shekels a month. When calculating the total sum throughout their lives, they will each receive 2.4 million shekels for the multiple murders they committed.
As mentioned, every month, the PA allots 17 million shekels to funding those who are convicted of murder and attempted murder…in addition to grants to the murderers’ families. More than a few murder convicts admit during interrogation that they want to commit terror attacks in order to receive the payment.
In other words, you could call this an incentive to murder.
21
Did Israel really think that it could get away with oppressing these people forever?
55
Right -- Israel should just give them a land -- like in Gaza -- that's worked out beautifully. It's amazing what Americans think is moral and what is not. This physician (I guess he once took an oath) is defending people committing mayhem against civilians. You know who these people are ... your daughter or your father, just going to school or work.
8
Have you read the Palestinian National Charter? Are the positions (which have long been the basis for actions) stated therein acceptable to you?
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/plocov.asp
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/plocov.asp
5
Do you really think murdering people and rejoicing over it is appropriate? According to your argument anyone who does anything is fair game, so I guess....
7
“No one will break us, and we’ll win this war," the man is quoted as saying.
What does it mean to win this war? What does it mean to win any war in the Middle East?
What does it mean to win this war? What does it mean to win any war in the Middle East?
6
How come the word "settlements" rarely occurs in the pro Israel comments here?
46
Because the fringe crazies in these outposts are a sideshow, and don't represent the views or attitudes of most Israelis. And they get prosecuted when they commit crimes against Arabs, not celebrated.
1
Or "occupation" or "oppression"...
3
Countries take land when they win wars, especially in a defensive way against five hostile surrounding nations. Not to mention, this was their land to begin with, which was forcibly taken from them. These "nomads", who we now call Palestianians, are really displaced Jordanians and so on. Seriously, look it up, when did these modern Palestinians come about?
"Occupied territory" is a disingenuous designation/term. Using the word "settlements" immediately shows that you are anti-Israel.
"Occupied territory" is a disingenuous designation/term. Using the word "settlements" immediately shows that you are anti-Israel.
The Palestinians are throwing a temper tantrum. After their impotent ruler came back from the UN empty handed, it has begun to dawn on the Palestinians that the world is not going to force the Israelis to give them a state without them giving up their dreams of destroying Israel. After turning down numerous offers of peace from the Israelis, the latest his 2014 rejection of the Kerry Parameters, Abbas told his people that he didn't have to negotiate with the Israelis, he would get the world to throw the Israelis out of the west bank, from which the Palestinians would launch the next war, as per Gaza. It hasn't worked out that way.
That coupled with bigger problems (ISIS anyone?) has caused the Palestinian divas to act out. Expect the Israelis to crack down, and the Palestinians to cry to the world. Same script; Palestinians start a war, lose a war, cry that they have to suffer the consequences of their own behavior, world bails them out. Rinse, repeat.
That coupled with bigger problems (ISIS anyone?) has caused the Palestinian divas to act out. Expect the Israelis to crack down, and the Palestinians to cry to the world. Same script; Palestinians start a war, lose a war, cry that they have to suffer the consequences of their own behavior, world bails them out. Rinse, repeat.
51
You are completely wrong. Abbas has been acting in good faith for years while Bibi undermines him and steals his people's land. Why not ask John Kerry who sabotaged the peace talks? It wasn't Abbas.
Palestinians had their land stolen in 1948 and now they are a permanent underclass, separated in bantustans. Their lives are blighted by the presence of Israel in their midst. Only when this injustice is resolved can there be peace. There is no peace without justice. Justice? What would that look like? One secular state with equal rights for all, including the right of return of refugees. Every other "solution" remains a perpetuation of division, domination and injustice.
32
It wasn't their land. Previous ruler; British Empire, Ottoman Empire (for 8 centuries). It was never Palestinian land, there never has been a Palestinian country. If I'm wrong, who was on their currency? They made that up and only the gullible, with their fake apartheid-speak, believe them. As for one secular state, there are 22 Arab countries now, point out which one gives any rights to minorities. Just ask the Kurds, Yazidis or Copts what it is like to live under Arab rule. All have had to deal with Arab attempts at genocide. You can't ask the Jews, the Arabs evicted them decades ago from communities which pre-dated Islam.
9
So my family has to die because the PALS think think 1948 was an injustice? Perhaps if they accepted the 1948 UN p;an instead of war, they and we would not be in the situation we are in today.
6
The land the Jews received in 1948 included the Negev, some of northern Israel and little else. Had the Arab world been peaceful as you are suggesting, that would have been the extent of the Jewish State, and there would have been no Jewish Arab conflict. But the Arab world was bent on driving the Jews out of a land from which the Jews had originated, and which the Arabs thought was holy only because of Jewish practices there 2000 years prior. Nothing in Arabic history remotely suggests that a secular state with Arabs as the majority would result in the protection of the human rights of the Jewish population. The words you use sound nice, but carrying them out would result in the destruction of the only modern state in the entire region, and the murder of its Jewish population.
7
Israel continually confiscates Arab land; restricts movement; enforces apartheid regulations on Arabs living in in Israel; and is annexing Jerusalem. Israel never chose to dampen the rhetoric, honor land titles, and deny the eventual goal of annexing all of Jerusalem and shipping out Arabs.
Instead, Israelis point to individuals who violently protest and condemn Arabs as a whole rather than resolving the factors that lead to conflict. Which, of course, Israel is now unable to do because it has convinced it's people and US backers that there is no choice but the present course.
Why wouldn't one expect that there will be continuing and escalating violence over the decades?
Instead, Israelis point to individuals who violently protest and condemn Arabs as a whole rather than resolving the factors that lead to conflict. Which, of course, Israel is now unable to do because it has convinced it's people and US backers that there is no choice but the present course.
Why wouldn't one expect that there will be continuing and escalating violence over the decades?
51
Terrible events. Not surprising. Can ghettos be far behind?
9
When each Palestinian death at Israeli hands is reported as dramatically and equally as each Israeli death, then, perhaps, there will be understanding about motivation. Israel is the entity standing in the way of any solution except killing all Palestinians or driving them out.
Israel is perpetrating myth. There is no reality to their claim--not in today's (or 1920 or 1948's) modern nation-state world. When Australia is returned to the aboriginal people, when Canada is returned to the First Nations, when the USA is returned to its native peoples, etc., then Israel has a claim (maybe).
Count the number of years of disruption by Palestinians against the number of years hoping for a solution and measure that against the continual disruption of Palestinian lives by Israel--check points, houses destroyed, land stolen, trees uprooted, high ground to illegal settlements, continual illegal occupation, then and only then, can you comprehend why young people will sacrifice their lives in this way. What live do they see and for how many generations now. Israel has never understood this because they forgot their own history.
I, for one, support Palestinian goals but I believe in one secular state for all in that location. Call it Canaan and get on with it before another generation is destroyed for nothing but the blindness of the perpetrators.
Israel is perpetrating myth. There is no reality to their claim--not in today's (or 1920 or 1948's) modern nation-state world. When Australia is returned to the aboriginal people, when Canada is returned to the First Nations, when the USA is returned to its native peoples, etc., then Israel has a claim (maybe).
Count the number of years of disruption by Palestinians against the number of years hoping for a solution and measure that against the continual disruption of Palestinian lives by Israel--check points, houses destroyed, land stolen, trees uprooted, high ground to illegal settlements, continual illegal occupation, then and only then, can you comprehend why young people will sacrifice their lives in this way. What live do they see and for how many generations now. Israel has never understood this because they forgot their own history.
I, for one, support Palestinian goals but I believe in one secular state for all in that location. Call it Canaan and get on with it before another generation is destroyed for nothing but the blindness of the perpetrators.
47
There is a great irony in seeing so many Americans ("liberty and freedom for all") support a nation that has occupied and oppressed millions of people for decades, then feign ignorance or suprise when the occupied hit back. Its time for the U.S. to demand an end to the occupation and a peaceful, 2-state resolution based on the 67 borders, or pull back from our support of Israel. Both sides deserve to live in peace with justice, but that cannot be with an occupation in place.
58
The true irony is seeing muslims, who spent 14 centuries ethnically cleansing non-muslims out of the mideast - an action that the coptics, maronites, zeria, bahia, chaldeans, maneachans, assyrians, kurds and others are experiencing even today - complain that the tiny plot of land in the entire mideast called Israel - is not under their control.
Why are non-muslims not allowed sovereignty in the mideast, muslim guy? Why are only muslims allowed to pray at the site where they disgustingly built a mosque on top of the jewish holy site?
Given that arab muslims do not get along with any other group, or even amongst themselves most of the time - anyone seen the riots in the european refugee centers this week? - what makes any sane individual believe that "if only israel would end the occupation", that there would be peace?
There was no peace there for decades prior to Israel entering the west bank, so why would there be any if Israel left it?
Why are non-muslims not allowed sovereignty in the mideast, muslim guy? Why are only muslims allowed to pray at the site where they disgustingly built a mosque on top of the jewish holy site?
Given that arab muslims do not get along with any other group, or even amongst themselves most of the time - anyone seen the riots in the european refugee centers this week? - what makes any sane individual believe that "if only israel would end the occupation", that there would be peace?
There was no peace there for decades prior to Israel entering the west bank, so why would there be any if Israel left it?
5
Yeah, giving back Gaza worked wonders. I wouldn't give back anything, especially going back to the '67 borders. The palestinians never want anything but Jews dead. Let's give back more and let the rockets rain down. Great idea.
5
Could have sworn when you were talking about occupation, that you were referring to Syria and the Assads . . . or was it Lebanon, which has been at the mercy of Hezbollah now (and the PLO in the past). You couldn't mean Israel, do you, which for the promise of peace has returned land it won in several wars of survival? Which keeps negotiating in good faith with enemies sworn to destroy her? Your call for pulling back was offered by the Israelis--even right after the '67 War. Check how your Muslim brethren responded. And how they still are responding. Israel can only do so much with a self-loathing people who'd rather destroy another state and not build one of their own.
4
For a decade now, Bibi Netanyahu has failed to offer any carrot to the Palestinians, nor any vision of how they might live alongside, or even with, Israelis, in two states, one state, or any other number of states. His entire program has been one of delay, creeping colonialism, and short-term thinking never going farther than the next election (in which, of course, the Jews in the West Bank participate, and the Arabs in the West Bank do not). He squandered years of relative calm in the West Bank, always setting another hurdle for the feckless Palestinian Authority to jump. Meanwhile the facts on the ground start to look like Indian Reservations and Bantustans.
Even as he sowed, now he will reap.
Even as he sowed, now he will reap.
53
And what have the arab leaders done to show good faith, build a functioning society, and tell their people that their lives are not going to be improved by spending all of their waking hours on terrorism?
What have the arabs done in 70 years to try to build a real country with the rule of law, women's, civil and human rights, a free press, etc?
What have the arabs done in 70 years to try to build a real country with the rule of law, women's, civil and human rights, a free press, etc?
1
Occupation psychosis.
11
I believe most of these assailants weren't living in any 'occupied' areas. Psychosis indeed. The disease is wanting to kill Jews.
1
I would remind people that as the Oslo Accords gained traction in the 1990s, it was fundamentalist Islamist groups in the Palestinian Territories (e.g. Hamas) who ramped up massive bombings targeting civilians within Israel proper to derail the peace process. In regards to the one state solution that many on the left now advocate for, how exactly would you expect that to play out with the sectarianism that exists in Israel/Territories now? Do you think it would just be kumbaya and holding hands all around? If it was your brother, sister, cousin or parents in Israel, do you think they would be safe? Do you think all Jewish Israelis should just pack their bags and go back to their respective recent countries origin (and what of those thousands whose families have been in Israel for hundreds of years)?
No one can deny the extremist elements among Jewish Israelis that also contributed to the derailment of Oslo (e.g. Rabin's assassination, among other things), and this extremism is only increasing. This is problematic and is a major barrier to a just resolution to Palestinian suffering.
But you are naive indeed if you think a return to the 1967 lines would mean an end to Palestinian aggression. You are even more naive if you think a one state solution would not result in a blood bath.
So here we are.
No one can deny the extremist elements among Jewish Israelis that also contributed to the derailment of Oslo (e.g. Rabin's assassination, among other things), and this extremism is only increasing. This is problematic and is a major barrier to a just resolution to Palestinian suffering.
But you are naive indeed if you think a return to the 1967 lines would mean an end to Palestinian aggression. You are even more naive if you think a one state solution would not result in a blood bath.
So here we are.
21
Bibi is at least partly responsible for Rabin's assassination. He was calling for "action" against him and his party. When you say this to deranged people with guns...well the results aren't going to be going to the polls.
do people really think whether stabbings of civilians - children as young as 2 are a disproportionate or inappropriate or illegal manifestation of Palestinian grievances.
12
Leaving aside politics, one has to wonder about the moral composition of a people who can attack unarmed innocent civilians and can the celebrate the events. And please do not try to play the moral equivalency game by pointing out that there are Israeli / Jewish terrorists as well. Every society has its outliers. The critical question is how does the rest of a society react when those outliers act.
19
And at the end of the day all of this is happening because of religious beliefs. All religion is stupid, no exception. Any religion is random and as stupid as believing in Mickey Mouse - and then saying "my Mickey Mouse is better than yours and if you don't believe it I will cut your head off". Folks, believe in whatever you want, seriously. If you want to believe that the earth is 6000 years old please be my guest. If you believe in Jesus or Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, Superman... Square SpongeBob anyone? So whatever, but please keep it to yourself and don't try to force your ridiculous thoughts on others.
8
Regardless of what your politics are, the level of your compassion or your sense of justice. IMHO Arabs and Palestinians will make Israel a violence ridden, hostile, desperate and oppressive place to live. Even if every single Jew left or were driven into the sea.
7
Time for the Palestinians to accept the Peace they can get via negotiation and compromise with Israel. For all the injustice they consider, the humiliation, the checkpoints, the second-class status, the statelessness, they can consider themselves lucky that they are not on the wrong side of Bashir Assad or Recep Erdogan, or Khameini, or the Saudi King, or Vladimir Putin or any number of others. For in those countries, there is no discussion of human rights and no issue with humiliation, or injustice. It is simply kill and shut up. The Palestinians are fortunate when compared to their Arab brethren, in that Israel is who they need to deal with. So wake up and negotiate with a nation which will compromise though not necessarily on your terms and thank Allah you are not dealing with one of your Arab strongmen.
21
Mr. Marty in NYC: this is a brilliant analysis of the
situation for the Palestinians. thank you for it.
carol from ct.
situation for the Palestinians. thank you for it.
carol from ct.
2
Best comment I've seen here!
3
So sad the New York Times in their "impartiality" seemingly attempts to justify wanton attempted murder and outright killings by Palestinians of Israelis who are trying to live their lives. Are you sure your logo isn't: "All the hypocrisy that's fit to print"? Have you no compunction to at least give some background: it's the Arabs (backed by Iran and others) who have never truly wanted peace, who have never engaged in any kind of nation-building, who perpetuate a constant chaos--who's self-loathing is focused on destroying others--and not bettering themselves.
20
Based upon the conclusions reached by many of the posters commenting on this article, Palestinians are the only people on earth required to guarantee the safety of their occupiers, and Israel is the only country on earth that demands to be protected from the violence Israel inflicts upon her victims.
51
Since Israel and Palestine signed the Oslo Accords 22 years ago:
-The U.S. has provided Israel with approximately $66 Billion in military aid and zero dollars in military aid to Palestine, since Palestine does not have a military.
- Israel has increased their illegal ethnic settlement population in the Palestine Territories by 3 fold, to approximately 650,000, Jewish Israelis, while the number of illegal Palestinian settlements established within the pre-1967 Israeli borders is zero.
-Israelis have expanded their unacknowledged nuclear stockpile to approximately 250 weapons, while Palestinians have taken control of policing activities over Area A, or 17% of the Occupied Territories.
-The U.S. has traditionally funded approximately 20% of Israel's annual total military budget. Palestine is forbidden by the Oslo treaty to create and maintain a standing Army and Air Force.
-The USA has vetoed 3 UN resolutions condemning illegal Israeli ethnic settlements established in the Occupied Territories, and sponsored two resolutions condemning Palestinian terrorism. The USA has never officially condemned Israel's illegal settlement expansion at the UN General Assembly.
-The American Israel Political Action Committee (AIPAC) has increased its annual Congressional lobbying budget to constitute 15% of the total amount of money spent by all groups lobbying Congress.
-The U.S. has provided Israel with approximately $66 Billion in military aid and zero dollars in military aid to Palestine, since Palestine does not have a military.
- Israel has increased their illegal ethnic settlement population in the Palestine Territories by 3 fold, to approximately 650,000, Jewish Israelis, while the number of illegal Palestinian settlements established within the pre-1967 Israeli borders is zero.
-Israelis have expanded their unacknowledged nuclear stockpile to approximately 250 weapons, while Palestinians have taken control of policing activities over Area A, or 17% of the Occupied Territories.
-The U.S. has traditionally funded approximately 20% of Israel's annual total military budget. Palestine is forbidden by the Oslo treaty to create and maintain a standing Army and Air Force.
-The USA has vetoed 3 UN resolutions condemning illegal Israeli ethnic settlements established in the Occupied Territories, and sponsored two resolutions condemning Palestinian terrorism. The USA has never officially condemned Israel's illegal settlement expansion at the UN General Assembly.
-The American Israel Political Action Committee (AIPAC) has increased its annual Congressional lobbying budget to constitute 15% of the total amount of money spent by all groups lobbying Congress.
And yet the Times went out of its way yesterday to characterize Israel's response to this terrorism as being brutal and heavy-handed. Yes, let's treat terrorists who stab and shoot others without provocation with kid gloves.
As long as you are Muslim, in the Times' worldview, you are incapable of doing wrong and any efforts to rein in your radicalism or terrorism or antisocial behavior is "racism" or "xenophobia." (See, e.g., Times' coverage of the invasion of Europe).
As long as you are Muslim, in the Times' worldview, you are incapable of doing wrong and any efforts to rein in your radicalism or terrorism or antisocial behavior is "racism" or "xenophobia." (See, e.g., Times' coverage of the invasion of Europe).
18
I don't have a dog in this hunt, having no ties to Israel or the Palestinian people. I know the current situation is exactly like it was 60 years ago on the day I was born. What's wrong with people who can't learn how to live side by side after over 60 years of senseless bloodshed & vicious oppression?
We know that 3rd parties took Palestinian land & gave it to the new state of Israel, without the permission of the Palestinians.
We know the Israeli government has operated an apartheid system of government painting the Palestinian people with a black brush, subjecting them to inhumane treatment from day 1.
We know oppressed people will fight back to the last man standing.
We know for every Jewish person who's killed by the Palestinians, 100 to 1000 Palestinians will be slaughtered.
We know the US pours billions into the Israeli government which is used to bomb & kill innocent Palestinians.
We know that on a whim, Israel will bulldoze the houses of the Palestinians
We know the terrible conditions of the Gaza Strip.
I know a 2 state solution will never come.
I know a 2 state solution is a bad idea because death raids from either side will still continue across the border.
I know I live in a city in the US where 29 languages are spoken in our public schools. We have a number of different kinds of religious faith, citizens of all colors & yet we live next to each other in peace.
The US shouldn't finance any terrorist group! Not Israel nor Palestine!
We know that 3rd parties took Palestinian land & gave it to the new state of Israel, without the permission of the Palestinians.
We know the Israeli government has operated an apartheid system of government painting the Palestinian people with a black brush, subjecting them to inhumane treatment from day 1.
We know oppressed people will fight back to the last man standing.
We know for every Jewish person who's killed by the Palestinians, 100 to 1000 Palestinians will be slaughtered.
We know the US pours billions into the Israeli government which is used to bomb & kill innocent Palestinians.
We know that on a whim, Israel will bulldoze the houses of the Palestinians
We know the terrible conditions of the Gaza Strip.
I know a 2 state solution will never come.
I know a 2 state solution is a bad idea because death raids from either side will still continue across the border.
I know I live in a city in the US where 29 languages are spoken in our public schools. We have a number of different kinds of religious faith, citizens of all colors & yet we live next to each other in peace.
The US shouldn't finance any terrorist group! Not Israel nor Palestine!
49
It is not the American people who support the injustice in Palestine ,it is the AIPAC-controlled Congress & WH. eg.
1/In 2009 when Israel invaded Gaza & killed 1400 people of which 2/3 were women & children, 334 members of Congress signed a letter to Obama to "Go Easy On Israel" while the 192 members of the UN General Assembly voted twice by a margin of % to condemn & sanction Israel for93 this same atrocity. It included destroying 5000 buildings as punishment for objecting to the prison that Israel kept them in.
2/It was NOT the Amer. people that voted to donate $4 billion/yr to Israel ($124 billion so far) or to create a special $2 billion/yr US tax loophole for gifts to Israeli "charities" that build illegal settlements on land stolen from Palestine.
3/ The NYT`s quoted Congressman Brian Baird “The difficult reality is this: in order to get elected to Congress you have to raise a lot of money & you learn pretty quickly that, if AIPAC is on your side, you can do that.” & John Yarmuth on upholding the interests of the US “We all took an oath of office & AIPAC, in many instances, is asking us to ignore it”
3/ AIPAC was twice voted as the most feared lobby in DC by the staffs of members of Congress.
4/ Pres. Carter wrote that to vote against the wishes of AIPAC was to commit political suicide.
The US must change its election campaign funding laws so that AIPAC can no longer game the system & control Congress against the interests of the nation. eg invading Iraq
1/In 2009 when Israel invaded Gaza & killed 1400 people of which 2/3 were women & children, 334 members of Congress signed a letter to Obama to "Go Easy On Israel" while the 192 members of the UN General Assembly voted twice by a margin of % to condemn & sanction Israel for93 this same atrocity. It included destroying 5000 buildings as punishment for objecting to the prison that Israel kept them in.
2/It was NOT the Amer. people that voted to donate $4 billion/yr to Israel ($124 billion so far) or to create a special $2 billion/yr US tax loophole for gifts to Israeli "charities" that build illegal settlements on land stolen from Palestine.
3/ The NYT`s quoted Congressman Brian Baird “The difficult reality is this: in order to get elected to Congress you have to raise a lot of money & you learn pretty quickly that, if AIPAC is on your side, you can do that.” & John Yarmuth on upholding the interests of the US “We all took an oath of office & AIPAC, in many instances, is asking us to ignore it”
3/ AIPAC was twice voted as the most feared lobby in DC by the staffs of members of Congress.
4/ Pres. Carter wrote that to vote against the wishes of AIPAC was to commit political suicide.
The US must change its election campaign funding laws so that AIPAC can no longer game the system & control Congress against the interests of the nation. eg invading Iraq
Maybe if newspapers pointed out that Israel has done NOTHING to threaten the Dome of the Rock these would-be terrorists wouldn't be so hyped-up. It is only because newspapers repeat lies from Arab leaders that the mosque is somehow threatened that the locals have been whipped up into a frenzy.
38
Israel is sinking into a hellhole of it's own making. The Gaza 'war' was a turkey shoot, a massive heavy-weaponry attack on an open prison. Much of it remains a pile of rubble. Palestinians continue to be slaughtered on a daily basis. Their homes are raided at night. Their children are brutally locked up for throwing stones. Israeli Arabs are treated as third-class citizens in their own land (see education and water distribution statistics for example). Working Palestinians' lives are made a misery by the Wall and by endless checkpoints. Is it any wonder that Palestinians fight back? Now that Netanyanu is literally encouraging his fellow Jews to arm themselves (no doubt spurred on by his friends in the NRA), there will be a far greater increase in bloodshed, and the situation will spiral further out of control. Meanwhile, Israel is becoming ever more divided between liberal secularists and violent, intransigent orthodox fanatics. Funny how the 'safe haven' for Jews has turned into the most dangerous place in the world for the Chosen People.
60
As a person of Palestinian descent, who's born and raised in America, but have lived in and explored Israel and the Occupied Palestinian territories, I just want to thank you. I could not have said it better myself.
You and other commenters forget conveniently that there were no checkpoints until Paletinian terrorism caused it. I visited Israel before the intifadas and enjoyed meals at a popular Arab Israeli cafe—my Jewish Israeli family took me there. I have visited Israel since and gave shared a bus bench with Arab women in Tel Aviv, have hailed Arab cabs in Jerusalem, have bought makeup from an Arab saleswoman at the largest mall in Haifa. The terrorist Hamas are causing these problems. The Palestinianpeople need to demonstrate against their own government. They are the government hindering peace. The treatment of Palestinians has nothing to do with the desire of Hamas to kill us Jews.
1
The media could help by reporting the regular attacks of Israeli Jews on Palestinians. It'd also help to let people know about the regular extrajudicial arrests, torture and killings of Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank.
53
Not today or tomorrow, but the state of Israel as originally imagined by the Zionist forbears is doomed. Either:
1. Israel will remain an increasingly isolated apartheid state similar to South Africa and suffer a similar or probably worse fate; or
2. Greater Israel, including the West Bank, will become a democracy and cease to be dominantly Jewish.
The writing is on the West Wall.
1. Israel will remain an increasingly isolated apartheid state similar to South Africa and suffer a similar or probably worse fate; or
2. Greater Israel, including the West Bank, will become a democracy and cease to be dominantly Jewish.
The writing is on the West Wall.
27
I do not understand those that criticize the Israeli response. These are random acts of terrorism, designed to incite fear in a civilian population. The Palestinian attackers do not stop to ask their victims their political views or whether they support a Palestinian state or continued settlements, they attack innocent civilians, including children. Whether frustrated by political inactivity or not, there can be no justification of such violence.
66
Oh the guilt, the guilt. Not this time!
When you're are living on land that was forcefully taken to create illegal settlements, how can you demand security. Hundreds of thousand of people still live in refugee camps, many more in neighboring countries. All within sight of their former homeland, the displaced labeled as terrorist can only wonder when will they be treated fairly, what is their future when there is literally no place to go. How can tell tell one to go home when you are living in their house? How can you ask someone to be self sufficient when you have burnt their family farm to make way for settlements? How can you preach humanity and practice the systemic displacement of an entire population.
54
If Israel had kept the Jews forced out of Arab countries in 1948 (and later episodes in the 1950's) in camps all these years to showcase their misery instead of integrating them into society, would you be more sympathetic? Too bad Arab nations (especially Jordan, which controlled the West Bank until its failed invasion of Israel in 1967) refused to integrate the Palestinian Arabs living within their borders.
4
"“Why not put them under curfew?” Ms. Ben Zichri, 59, asked of the city’s 300,000 Palestinian residents. “I should be able to walk freely.”
An amazing statement by the occupiers who had put every possible restriction on the Palestinians, including taking their land. Saying that some of the violence is in "the settlements" is so biased, why not the ILLEGAL AND CONDEMNED BY THE ENTIRE WORLD settlements, so the reader can REALLY understand what is going on.
An amazing statement by the occupiers who had put every possible restriction on the Palestinians, including taking their land. Saying that some of the violence is in "the settlements" is so biased, why not the ILLEGAL AND CONDEMNED BY THE ENTIRE WORLD settlements, so the reader can REALLY understand what is going on.
124
Right, so you think that this is a "land" issue, and that if Israel exited the west bank - no jews allowed to live there, like gaza - then there would be peace....got it.
It is appalling in the Age of Information that there are still people as clueless as this.
It is appalling in the Age of Information that there are still people as clueless as this.
7
Nah, I don't think so, "Observer." YOUR "occupation" is recognized by many others as "disputed" territory.
Tell us: when the "West Bank" was ruled by Jordan, and Gaza by Egypt, where were the riots and stabbings? For that matter, why hadn't we heard of "Palestinians"? Where were the infifadas? Where was the *occupation*? There wasn't any. Where was the daily world condemnation of Egypt and the Hashemite Kingdom, itself carved out of British Mandate Palestine with no fanfare? Why only since Israel acquired the territories in a war of aggression against them??
We await your sage words.
Tell us: when the "West Bank" was ruled by Jordan, and Gaza by Egypt, where were the riots and stabbings? For that matter, why hadn't we heard of "Palestinians"? Where were the infifadas? Where was the *occupation*? There wasn't any. Where was the daily world condemnation of Egypt and the Hashemite Kingdom, itself carved out of British Mandate Palestine with no fanfare? Why only since Israel acquired the territories in a war of aggression against them??
We await your sage words.
1
"“Why not put them under curfew?” Ms. Ben Zichri, 59, asked of the city’s 300,000 Palestinian residents. “I should be able to walk freely.”
An amazing statement by the occupiers who had put every possible restriction on the Palestinians, including taking their land. "
Nothing is amazing. There were suicide bombing in Israeli's buses before Israel built a wall even thought the whole world was screaming at Israel. After that the bombing stopped.
An amazing statement by the occupiers who had put every possible restriction on the Palestinians, including taking their land. "
Nothing is amazing. There were suicide bombing in Israeli's buses before Israel built a wall even thought the whole world was screaming at Israel. After that the bombing stopped.
You mean that suppressing people, herding them into economically isolated compounds, bombing them, shooting at them, stealing the very land from beneath their feet, insisting that they too cannot be victims, denying that they even constitute a "people" with the same rights as all other peoples wouldn't make the core problem go away? Who knew?
Israel needs a true friend right now - a friend that will insist on facing reality: that time is not on Israel's side, that it cannot sit back safely behind an American shield forever, that its very existence is threatened by a de-prioritization of making peace with the people it lives with side by side, that there is no "Plan B" other than negotiation, that the world in general and the Palestinians in particular are not going to just wait around for the Israeli public to exhaust all options (real or otherwise) before accepting that a peace agreement is the only means of securing the integrity of Israel and the safety of the public.
Moral blindness, tough talk, and counter-cyclical violence is about as failed an approach as I can imagine.
Israel needs a true friend right now - a friend that will insist on facing reality: that time is not on Israel's side, that it cannot sit back safely behind an American shield forever, that its very existence is threatened by a de-prioritization of making peace with the people it lives with side by side, that there is no "Plan B" other than negotiation, that the world in general and the Palestinians in particular are not going to just wait around for the Israeli public to exhaust all options (real or otherwise) before accepting that a peace agreement is the only means of securing the integrity of Israel and the safety of the public.
Moral blindness, tough talk, and counter-cyclical violence is about as failed an approach as I can imagine.
129
The great gift of Christianity was the teaching of forgiveness. Unfortunately not many of any religion have ever taken that teaching seriously. As the nations claiming both Islam and Judaism cry out,¨We shall never forget!¨ the toxic, venomous results of long held injuries, hatred and distrust dating back thousands of years, are bound to come to fruition. As you reap, so shall you sow.
9
Uh...let's see...does the Crusades ring a bell? Or the Inquisition? Or maybe the Conquistadors? The 100 years war? The Irish Catholic/Protestant disputes? Just say'n...
2
Melsays: Crusades - over, Inquisition - over, 100 years war - over, Norther Irish conflict - over. Try harder.
1
This kind of thing happens all the time, but it's the violent settlers doing this while they steal the land of the Palestinians. THis is a VERY biased report.
35
Netanyahu pushed America to change the regimes of the Middle Eastern countries and since 1991 the CIA has worked hard to oblige. Hillary lit the fuse as SOS. The result was al Qaida now ISIS pushing back out of sheer frustration.
Bibi should have learned that his refusal to make peace with the Palestinians would eventually get a similar push back, but he is too thick to learn from Intifada 1 or 2 that 3 would eventually follow. All of his blah blah that the Palestinians were intransigent is going to come back at him. Perhaps he really wants a war thinking he can then just wipe the Palestinians off the face of the earth.
The exterior world seems to understand, why can't the Israelis?
Bibi should have learned that his refusal to make peace with the Palestinians would eventually get a similar push back, but he is too thick to learn from Intifada 1 or 2 that 3 would eventually follow. All of his blah blah that the Palestinians were intransigent is going to come back at him. Perhaps he really wants a war thinking he can then just wipe the Palestinians off the face of the earth.
The exterior world seems to understand, why can't the Israelis?
14
I wonder what this article does not report. It seems unlikely to me that this increase in violence is unprovoked. Are there policies by the Netanyahu government that are exacerbating the issues and are going unreported in the American press? it wouldn't be the first time. Although there is no excuse for violence, or for killing innocent people who are simply going about their business. What is so very sad is that a 13 and 15 year-old attacked a 13 year-old. The hate and violence seems to have been transmitted to next generation -- again.
5
"I wonder what this article does not report. It seems unlikely to me that this increase in violence is unprovoked"
Paraphrased: "I don't believe this article! It's got to be the Jews' fault somehow!"
Paraphrased: "I don't believe this article! It's got to be the Jews' fault somehow!"
1
“Why not put them under curfew?” Ms. Ben Zichri, 59, asked of the city’s 300,000 Palestinian residents. “I should be able to walk freely.”
So should they.
So should they.
61
The fervor of religiosity: “Muslims, we want to live in peace, but the Netanyahu government doesn’t, they’re extremists,” said Mr. Diq, 48. “We are people of peace, but whoever harms our mosque, that’s a red line.”
Magical thinking that they "know" that a mosque will be harmed so they induce terrorist tactics. So, no this will not stop and never will as long as this is induced. As for the red line, I remember someone evoking the same thing and does it politically here in the US.
Magical thinking that they "know" that a mosque will be harmed so they induce terrorist tactics. So, no this will not stop and never will as long as this is induced. As for the red line, I remember someone evoking the same thing and does it politically here in the US.
4
Israel now knows that they cannot count on America. Obama will not come to their aid, nor will he support them in court of public opinion. Their enemies are emboldened to push Israel farther than ever before. The Palestinians are more than likely being fed arms and cash directly from Russia. There is nothing Putin would like better than heightened tensions and conflict in Israel. It takes the media spotlight off of his military moves in Syria.
12
What is wrong with these Israeli children and elderly folk. How provocative must they be? They're walking directly into the Palestinian knives! It's blatant racism!
39
The irresponsibility of recent media headlines highlighting Palestinian deaths with no mention that they were violently attacking Israelis have been astounding. In the fog of war where battlefield details are sketchy, I can understand mistaking of facts. But this is well-documented street violence. Attackers armed with knives with the intent to kill any Jew in sight. This isn't politics. This is psychosis. No one, regardless of their politics, has the right to do that. It's indefensible.
41
Every article I read about the latest violence in Israel covered the attacks on Israelies by Palestinians (also the attacks by Israelis on Palestinians) so I'm not sure your complaint has merit.
This violence will continue as long as Israel continues occupying Palestinian land and suppressing Palestinians natural desire for their own country.
If you abuse people past their human limits, they will no choice but to strike back, even if they have no hope of defeating their oppressors. History is full of examples of heroic yet futile revolts: see the Warsaw Uprising.
Israel has lost her moral compass.
This violence will continue as long as Israel continues occupying Palestinian land and suppressing Palestinians natural desire for their own country.
If you abuse people past their human limits, they will no choice but to strike back, even if they have no hope of defeating their oppressors. History is full of examples of heroic yet futile revolts: see the Warsaw Uprising.
Israel has lost her moral compass.
The US media generally will not report the strong racist ideology now in ascendance in the Israeli state. The Israeli Deputy Defense Minister terms Palestinians animals and states that Jews will always have higher souls than gentiles (Times of Israel, May 11, 2015). This is a top official in charge of Israeli military might.
Meanwhile some prominent “settler” rabbis teach that Christian churches and mosques should be destroyed, citing Maimonides.
These formerly minority views are becoming majority views among “religious Zionists" and the Haredi Orthodox. Both groups are influential with Netanyahu.
Earlier today the Times quoted an Israeli woman as follows: “Why not put them under curfew?” Ms. Ben Zichri, 59, asked of Jerusalem’s 300,000 Palestinian residents. “I should be able to walk freely.”
This racist ideology is what is behind Israeli intransigence. The derogation of the humanity of the Palestinian people is the issue. Until that is faced there will be no peace in Palestine or Jerusalem.
Meanwhile some prominent “settler” rabbis teach that Christian churches and mosques should be destroyed, citing Maimonides.
These formerly minority views are becoming majority views among “religious Zionists" and the Haredi Orthodox. Both groups are influential with Netanyahu.
Earlier today the Times quoted an Israeli woman as follows: “Why not put them under curfew?” Ms. Ben Zichri, 59, asked of Jerusalem’s 300,000 Palestinian residents. “I should be able to walk freely.”
This racist ideology is what is behind Israeli intransigence. The derogation of the humanity of the Palestinian people is the issue. Until that is faced there will be no peace in Palestine or Jerusalem.
72
people should be able to walk and not worry about being stabbed.
4
I am sorry, how many Israelis have destroyed said Mosques and Churches? How many people said "Jews will always have higher souls than gentiles" on the record, apart from that one guy?
Your rhetoric is very similar to that of the Palestinian terrorists; blame everyone and anything possible for your situation, except for yourself. If they really wanted to be labeled as a political resistance, then they would be attacking Israeli soldiers, only. The fact they attack innocent elderly, children and so on just goes to show you they are morally bankrupt and should be defined as terrorists. It is that simple.
The US media likes to pile on Israel as much as anyone else, but this "racist ideology" thing you are spewing is just more hate speech to justify terrorism. These Palestinians do not even believe in the right for Jews to exist, so for you to come here and cast blame on the other side, when they do not return the sentiment, just goes to show that your rhetoric is the same as that used by terrorists. Sickening.
Your rhetoric is very similar to that of the Palestinian terrorists; blame everyone and anything possible for your situation, except for yourself. If they really wanted to be labeled as a political resistance, then they would be attacking Israeli soldiers, only. The fact they attack innocent elderly, children and so on just goes to show you they are morally bankrupt and should be defined as terrorists. It is that simple.
The US media likes to pile on Israel as much as anyone else, but this "racist ideology" thing you are spewing is just more hate speech to justify terrorism. These Palestinians do not even believe in the right for Jews to exist, so for you to come here and cast blame on the other side, when they do not return the sentiment, just goes to show that your rhetoric is the same as that used by terrorists. Sickening.
4
What a very simplistic view of the whole sad affair. The anti-Jewish, and violent proclamations from the most prominent Palestinian politicians and clerics are a daily occurrence; urging stabbings and killings. Frustration with their own failed political system, much of it their own fault, is not an excuse for violence. Want to see the only place in the middle east where veiled Arab women can walk past orthodox Jews without a second glance? Go to Israel and see the peace and security the Arab Israeli's live in.
Is there prejudice in Israel against the Palestinians? Of course. But in your mind its only one way. And the violent stabbings of women and children are excusable because of Israel's side of the equation. There is plenty of hate to go around. But nothing excuses stabbing kids. Nothing.
Is there prejudice in Israel against the Palestinians? Of course. But in your mind its only one way. And the violent stabbings of women and children are excusable because of Israel's side of the equation. There is plenty of hate to go around. But nothing excuses stabbing kids. Nothing.
1
Why is it that every time an Arab is killed anywhere in the Middle East the Republican chicken hawks want the President to go in with guns blazing. When he doesn't he's called "weak", "leading from behind", "a pacifier", etc.
Why aren't these same "bomb first and ask questions later" Republicans not urging their buddy Bibi to go into the Palestinian territories and clean house?
Hmmmn...... Just wondering.
Why aren't these same "bomb first and ask questions later" Republicans not urging their buddy Bibi to go into the Palestinian territories and clean house?
Hmmmn...... Just wondering.
1
It is a true fact that a great many Palestinians living in the West Bank and Gaza obtain electricity from the Israel Electric Corporation without ever paying a shekel for it.
I would begin with the rock throwers. They want to throw rocks. Let them and their families and their neighbors live in the dark,
for as long as the rock throwing continues.
Harming innocents, you say? That is a matter that Palestinians must decide for themselves.
It's rocks or electricity.
They cannot have both.
I would begin with the rock throwers. They want to throw rocks. Let them and their families and their neighbors live in the dark,
for as long as the rock throwing continues.
Harming innocents, you say? That is a matter that Palestinians must decide for themselves.
It's rocks or electricity.
They cannot have both.
30
Collective punishment by the occupiers on all the occupied? Yea, great idea that. Or maybe just bomb one in ten of their houses? This is insane, criminal logic.
One could say the same of the Israelis: No peace, then no weapons and no billions to prop up your nation
The mayhem inflict by the IDF and Israeli settlers on Palestinians on a daily basis goes completely unreported by the US media. These are a daily reality for Palestinians. The Palestinian attacks are the result of despair and hopelessness., Doomed to perpetual statelessness, the Palestinian people endure an apartheid that is worse than that endured by South Africans, as attested to by South Africans who lived under it.
60
The people encouraging these attacks are pure evil. Not only are they causing death and terror but they will be responsible for a truly terrible future for Palestinians. People will argue the legitimacy of any Israeli response but we can be sure it will be painful and will hurt many innocent Palestinians, either through military response or police response or curfews or border/checkpoint procedures or enhanced racial profiling. Israel has been a place of freedom and opportunity for many Palestinians. It is hard to see that continuing to be the case when Israelis are forced to start viewing every Palestinian as a terrorist.
185
It's not just those who are encouraging these attacks, it's those who are not discouraging these attacks who bear responsibility for all that follows.
11
Are you serious? Israel as a place of freedom for Palestinians? Palentinians have been treated as 2nd class citizens for the 50 years. That is the cause of the insanity that Israel is now living with.
17
israel should end its stupid occupation and live in peace in the heart of the Arab World. Or israelis return to where they came from and leave the backward M.East to its Arab inhabitants.
6
The Palestinian rebellion and frustration are completely understandable - Netanyahu will never give them a state so long as Israel feels no pressure. Having said that, this violence is not the answer; Palestinians have tried violence many times before and it leads to naught - the Israelis strike back hard and the civilian casualties lose world public support. I wish there were a Plestinian leader who would see that what is needed is what Ghandi and Martin Luther Kind did - non violent resistance, peaceful protest and, where possible, economic boycotts of Israeli businesses. It will take a long time - as has the violent approach - but over time it will succeed and the justice of their cause - no longer obscured by the horrors of the violence - will turn the world - including moderate Israelis and most American into advocates for a peaceful two state solution.
210
Palestinians could have had their state many times, but each time they turned down all offers, including the one at Camp David, and turned to barbaric violence, instead. The recent wave of terrorist attacks started when PA unelected president Abbas declared that "filthy Jewish feet contaminate Jerusalem Arab sanctity".
17
The Palestinians have been engaging in non-violent protest for years (see link to Economist below). But the media including the New York Times routinely ignores these protests even when they come under violent attack from the Israeli police or IDF and nobody cares when these Palestinians are killed. Hence the build up frustration and increased use of violence by the Palestinians.
http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2011/05/israel_and_pal...
http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2011/05/israel_and_pal...
10
The violence will continue until Netanyahu leaves or is removed from office.
8
"Muslims, we want to live in peace, but the Netanyahu government doesn’t, they’re extremists,” said Mr. Diq, 48. “We are people of peace, but whoever harms our mosque, that’s a red line." NYT
Murdering unarmed innocent civilians, children included, is certainly how one obtains peace Mr. Diq.
Murdering unarmed innocent civilians, children included, is certainly how one obtains peace Mr. Diq.
68
We deal with the murder of innocents in American cities every day. We too want to live in peace but we must deal with drug lords and gangs that rule, by the gun, throughout America.
The difference between America and Israel is that the Israelis recognize the brutality of the attackers and allow innocent civilians to arm themselves. In fact Israeli military personnel on leave and off duty carry their weapons with them all the time. And thousands of Israelis are licensed to carry firearms.
The right of self defense and the right to carry arms keeps Israelis safe. They will not just be slaughtered in the streets, or their homes, on a bus or in their cars. In America if we defend ourselves we're charged with a crime and labeled as gun nuts and mentally ill.
The Palestinian violence will end shorty as the Israelis clamp down with curfews and in some cases return fire. In America the violence against innocent civilians will continue unabated. If we did the same as Israel the violence would end or at least be curtailed for a while until the lessons had to be learned again.
Of course, we could impose a two state solution; the American way. One state armed and the other a gun free zone.
Now the left wing anti-gun lobby will condemn me to death because I defend the right of self defense. Imagine how well their argument would be heard in Israel.
We Americans pay a heavy price for abdicating and denying our rights.
We too, should be able to walk our streets without fear.
The difference between America and Israel is that the Israelis recognize the brutality of the attackers and allow innocent civilians to arm themselves. In fact Israeli military personnel on leave and off duty carry their weapons with them all the time. And thousands of Israelis are licensed to carry firearms.
The right of self defense and the right to carry arms keeps Israelis safe. They will not just be slaughtered in the streets, or their homes, on a bus or in their cars. In America if we defend ourselves we're charged with a crime and labeled as gun nuts and mentally ill.
The Palestinian violence will end shorty as the Israelis clamp down with curfews and in some cases return fire. In America the violence against innocent civilians will continue unabated. If we did the same as Israel the violence would end or at least be curtailed for a while until the lessons had to be learned again.
Of course, we could impose a two state solution; the American way. One state armed and the other a gun free zone.
Now the left wing anti-gun lobby will condemn me to death because I defend the right of self defense. Imagine how well their argument would be heard in Israel.
We Americans pay a heavy price for abdicating and denying our rights.
We too, should be able to walk our streets without fear.
2
"Murdering unarmed innocent civilians, children included, is certainly how one obtains peace Mr. Diq "
The colonists/foreigners have on average killed 1 Palestinian child every 3 days for the last 15 years. Not to mentioned the thousands of injured Palestinian children.
It is not rocket science. The rational world readily sees & understands who are the foreigners & brutal occupiers vs who are the indigenous people of Palestine who have been forced from their land or live gasping for breath under the Zionist occupation. eg. 750,000 Pal`s were illegally forced from their land in 1948 alone.
The colonists/foreigners have on average killed 1 Palestinian child every 3 days for the last 15 years. Not to mentioned the thousands of injured Palestinian children.
It is not rocket science. The rational world readily sees & understands who are the foreigners & brutal occupiers vs who are the indigenous people of Palestine who have been forced from their land or live gasping for breath under the Zionist occupation. eg. 750,000 Pal`s were illegally forced from their land in 1948 alone.
1
Awful way to live, the Israelis have tried but the Palestinians are motivated by hatred that they can never let go of.
The Israelis should implement a curfew of Arab neighborhoods. Let the international left howl in protest. Who cares?
The Israelis should implement a curfew of Arab neighborhoods. Let the international left howl in protest. Who cares?
85
The Israelis will care, for sure, when they see the billions of our hard-earned dollars that support their endless violence against a hopelessly opposed people evaporate. Hit them where it hurts them most - in their pocket.
17
When have the Israeli's tried? I don't recall such a thing in the last 40 years.
Do you mean by electing Netanyahu? Is that how they tried?
Do you mean by electing Netanyahu? Is that how they tried?
12
If is funny how the NYT correspondents in Israel write articles that suffer from amnesia. The article basically describes all the violent Palestinian actions, but does not or barely mentions the continuous actions of Israel and its settlers against Palestinians that have been taking place since 1967.
Note that it seems that every 20 years their is an uprising against Israel as a generation of Palestinians has no future due to a brutal occupation. Each cycle is more violent a corrodes both Israelis and Palestinians.
If Israel feels that the Palestinian are not ready for state but feels a two state solution is the answer to saving Israel as a state with a Jewish majority, then why continue to build settlements in the West Bank and Jerusalem that makes impossible the creation of a viable Palestinian state and create friction that creates violence.
As final note - we should remember that Israel is the country occupies the West Bank and East Jerusalem and the building of settlement by force and installing its population is illegal and immoral. Most important, it is a mistake that always leads to violence and death and eventually will lead to a one state solution which is bad for both Palestinians and Israelis.
Note that it seems that every 20 years their is an uprising against Israel as a generation of Palestinians has no future due to a brutal occupation. Each cycle is more violent a corrodes both Israelis and Palestinians.
If Israel feels that the Palestinian are not ready for state but feels a two state solution is the answer to saving Israel as a state with a Jewish majority, then why continue to build settlements in the West Bank and Jerusalem that makes impossible the creation of a viable Palestinian state and create friction that creates violence.
As final note - we should remember that Israel is the country occupies the West Bank and East Jerusalem and the building of settlement by force and installing its population is illegal and immoral. Most important, it is a mistake that always leads to violence and death and eventually will lead to a one state solution which is bad for both Palestinians and Israelis.
511
"we should remember that Israel is the country occupies the West Bank and East Jerusalem" - Let give a little history lesson - shall we? Israel occupies NO land. Land was offered to the Arabs and Israeli's as a two state solution. The Arabs rejected that proposal while the Israeli's graciously accepted it. The Arabs didn't get everything and therefore wanted nothing. The land was then given to the Israeli's by its owner (and yes, Britain owned that land, so don't start). Soon after, all Arab countries surrounding Israel instructed the Palestinians to abandon their homes because they would be attacking Israel. Israel won back a great deal of land in a DEFENSIVE war. Do you know what happens in a DEFENSIVE war? "A state acting in lawful exercise of its right of self-defense may seize and occupy foreign territory as long as such seizure and occupation are necessary to its self-defense" - in this case, Israel acquired land in a DEFENSIVE war and won. Sorry, Israel is not occupying a DROP of land. Do not make false statements until you have done your research.
1
When young American Black men are gunned down by the police, we do not call their behavior into question. Yet it is acceptable to hold the State of Israel accountable for policy actions that vindicate the actions of Palestinian predators.
3
Do all CURRENT EVENTS reports you read contain a history of relevant events since 1967? I don't think it's NYT that's showing its bias here.
I rarely say this, but good job, NYT.
I rarely say this, but good job, NYT.
3
I know I will be accused of taking sides but I dearly wish that the Palestinians refrain from such violence. It is not the way to force people into negotiations. They obviously will cede the high moral ground. The end result will be segregation of Arabs in Jerusalem with large scale migration out as the conditions would become intolerable. You may argue that conditions are intolerable already but when you see the plight of Syrian refugees you might not view Israeli Arabs in dire straits. I do hope that Bibi finds his soul and gets back to negotiations without preconditions.
14
He has been offering negotiations with no conditions and Abaas has rejected it
11
Israel abandoned the "peace" process for a "creeping annexation"
process by refusing the 2002 Arab League Peace. No other way to peace. Just to perfection, generous to a fault, an offer Israel has not been able to afford to refuse, and now the chickens are coming home to roost. Israel is not able to hide its grand larceny any longer under its sham cloak of "security", in reality armed robbery, while America stands by holding Israel's coat
process by refusing the 2002 Arab League Peace. No other way to peace. Just to perfection, generous to a fault, an offer Israel has not been able to afford to refuse, and now the chickens are coming home to roost. Israel is not able to hide its grand larceny any longer under its sham cloak of "security", in reality armed robbery, while America stands by holding Israel's coat
11
You reveal your own weakness of character by starting with "I know I will be accused of taking sides..." What, exactly, is wrong with taking sides? Innocent Jewish inhabitants of Israel are being attacked by Palestinians being incited and encouraged by evil and cowardly men. There will be no "large scale migration" you predict because the modus operandi of the Palestinian leadership (and other Middle Eastern ruling nations) for decades has been to use these people as a means to a political end: the destruction of the Jewish state. No country--not Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, et. al.--welcomes Palestinian refugees. They are pawns in a larger and ugly agenda.
6
“Why not put them under curfew?” ...A real genius solution
10
Well please say how many Dead Jews would it take to change your sarcastic comment?
6
The whole quote “Why not put them under curfew?” Ms. Ben Zichri, 59, asked of the city’s 300,000 Palestinian residents. “I should be able to walk freely.”) reveals the mindset of the Israelis towards their captives.
13
Fred: Have you forgotten about Baltimore so soon? He who is without sin...
1
If it were really about a piece of land, it would have solved in 1948 with the Arabs accepting peace- or any time until 1967; Or after Oslo.
Look everywhere in the Middle East. The real issue is no different in Israel. It's radical Islam, stupid.
Look everywhere in the Middle East. The real issue is no different in Israel. It's radical Islam, stupid.
197
It is also a radical Bibi. We are not that stupid to know that too.
10
What about radical Judaism ?! What about state terror ?! What about settlers theft and terror ?!
10
All religious mythologies are toxic...Yours is not excepted.
" a 13-year-old Jew riding his bicycle was critically wounded by two Palestinian cousins, 13 and 15."
Why is one called a Jew - which is a religion and the other a Palestinian. The equivalents would be Jew and Moslem or Israeli (add Jew there if you have to) and Palestinian (add Moslem there if you added Jew in the first one.)
This is a racist and discriminatory way of defining people.
Why is one called a Jew - which is a religion and the other a Palestinian. The equivalents would be Jew and Moslem or Israeli (add Jew there if you have to) and Palestinian (add Moslem there if you added Jew in the first one.)
This is a racist and discriminatory way of defining people.
126
Perhaps because jews believe they are special chosen race and the others were created to serve them. At least that is why is written in their fairy tales books.
6
You are correct that many Israelis are not Jewish. However, it also is true that many Palestinians are not Muslims. Some are Christian, others Druze, and others are not at all religious.
In defense of the loose language employed by the media and readers, is difficult to avoid using "racist" - more accurately "bigoted" - terminology when one is discussing an apartheid state that officially advantages purported members of one religion over all other people.
In defense of the loose language employed by the media and readers, is difficult to avoid using "racist" - more accurately "bigoted" - terminology when one is discussing an apartheid state that officially advantages purported members of one religion over all other people.
This is because there are non-Jewish Israelis. There are Arab Muslim Israelis, Arab Druze Israelis, Arab and nonArab Christian Israelis, etc. It's worthwhile noting there are also Christian Palestinians.
1
Netanyahu does have a settler based gov't. He has proven provocative in most of his actions. The Israeli people have chaos all around them. The gov't response is right out of the NRA to arm people and when shoot they feel threatened. The Palestinians are seething because the Israelis will not respect their rights to the land. Now with senseless sectarian violence on all sides of Israel its seems time to begin serious negotiations. As Sec Kerry said to Assad in Syria, the Israelis will not be able to shoot their way out of this.
380
Just on your "right out of the NRA" comment, I think it's worth understanding the gun laws and culture in Israel. Only citizens who can demonstrate a need for a firearm can apply for a permit. That generally only includes private security professionals and those who live in dangerous areas. They must then pass background checks, psychiatric exams, and shooting tests. Finally they are able to order one weapon from a small list and are given a one-time supply of 50 bullets with no opportunity to purchase more. You're painting an image of Israelis just running around shooting wild but that is simply not the case. When the mayor of Jerusalem asks those with permits to carry their weapons, it's because those people are trained and certified to know when and exactly how to use them responsibly.
7
The Palestinians should get rid of Hamas, PLA and Islamic Jihad leadership, who only exist for their own benefit at the expense of the people. Further it is the Muslim countries who've effectively cleansed their lands of all Jews not the other way around.
11
How does one enter into "serious negotiations" with those whose avowed goal has been, for decades, and continues to be one's annihilation? The concept is ludicrous on its face.
10
If you draw a line from Turkey to Afghanistan, it's all a mess.
I wonder when the entire region will will be completely engaged in war.
America needs to back away from all of this.
I wonder when the entire region will will be completely engaged in war.
America needs to back away from all of this.
60
America either directly or by proxy has been responsible for most of it.
Whether it's Syrian Rebels, Iraqi sectarian violence, ISIS, Afghanistan, Cutting the Grass in Gaza , Bombing Yemen EVERYONE uses American Weapons, Arms and Military equipment.
What a mess.
Whether it's Syrian Rebels, Iraqi sectarian violence, ISIS, Afghanistan, Cutting the Grass in Gaza , Bombing Yemen EVERYONE uses American Weapons, Arms and Military equipment.
What a mess.
7
How can American back away from itself? It's a mess whose parts were made here, in the USA. American leaders have worked hard to make this happen: propping up corrupt, violent rulers in Afghanistan, Iraq, Israel, Turkey and Egypt; encouraging Jewish settlements across Palestinian lands; arming jihadists in Afghanistan and Syria; bolstering Saudi Arabia's jihadist theology; and dozens of military bases in the region making sure that this status quo—war, bloodshed and corruption—will last, even against the wishes of the peoples of the region.
5
So in the worlds twisted logic it is the Israelis fault that civilian s are being openly attacked stabbed rammed by cars. Who else should Israel feel bad for the Oregon shooter , or perhaps Ted Bundy. The logic of your commentators is appaling
163
The logic of the occupiers and the settlers is the one to be questioned. If it is such a wonderful country, why did you immigrate to the U.S.?
7
These things don't happen in a vacuum. Can they really possibly believe that destroying homes is a deterrent? I guarantee you that policy creates more killers.
"... an initial move, the Israeli military demolished the homes of two Palestinian militants in east Jerusalem.
The destroyed homes belonged to the families of a man who killed four worshippers and a police officer in a Jerusalem synagogue last year, and a second attacker who killed one person when he rammed a bulldozer into traffic. Although the attackers were immediately killed, Israel often carries out such demolitions of the homes of militants' families, believing it will deter future attacks."
http://news.yahoo.com/amid-unrest-west-bank-israel-demolishes-militants-...
"UN: Israel Demolished Homes of 1,177 Palestinians in Jerusalem and West Bank in 2014
Since the beginning of 2015, Israeli authorities destroyed 77 structures, displacing 110 Palestinians.
read more: http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.640147
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.640147
"... an initial move, the Israeli military demolished the homes of two Palestinian militants in east Jerusalem.
The destroyed homes belonged to the families of a man who killed four worshippers and a police officer in a Jerusalem synagogue last year, and a second attacker who killed one person when he rammed a bulldozer into traffic. Although the attackers were immediately killed, Israel often carries out such demolitions of the homes of militants' families, believing it will deter future attacks."
http://news.yahoo.com/amid-unrest-west-bank-israel-demolishes-militants-...
"UN: Israel Demolished Homes of 1,177 Palestinians in Jerusalem and West Bank in 2014
Since the beginning of 2015, Israeli authorities destroyed 77 structures, displacing 110 Palestinians.
read more: http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.640147
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.640147
9
Using your "logic" only Israelis are victims. No one else. And that what's truly appalling to the rest of us.
12
Hopefully Israelis realize these are regular individuals acting on their own not a broader effort pushed by Hamas from Gaza and its time that Israel be very proactive about finding a larger solution for West Bank. No point is arguing about whats fair, who is to blame, just that this is the new reality and for anyone who is familiar with last 10 years in West Bank this isn't a surprise.
14
Hamas claims terror cell responsible for simultaneous terror attacks in Jerusalem today
7
The noxious comments below show a distorted view of reality. In almost every instance the ATTACKERS are Palestinians. Compassion from normal humans is generally focused on VICTIMS.
226
Apparently not when the victims are Jews.
27
You comment makes no sense. Look at the deaths, and you will see that the Palestinians, woman and children very much included, are the victims, killed by the thousands.
14
Historically that is absolutely true.
Historically over the millennium, an exception regarding the compassion rule is made when the victims are Jews.
Historically over the millennium, an exception regarding the compassion rule is made when the victims are Jews.
9
Is Hillary going to be asked about this in the debate:
It is high time to isolate Israel’s regime of militarization, securitization and racism as a danger not just to Palestinians and the Arab region, but to humanity at large.
- See more at: http://www.bdsmovement.net/2015/solidarity-with-the-palestinian-popular-...
It is high time to isolate Israel’s regime of militarization, securitization and racism as a danger not just to Palestinians and the Arab region, but to humanity at large.
- See more at: http://www.bdsmovement.net/2015/solidarity-with-the-palestinian-popular-...
69
Hillary is in the pocket of her donors , ie AIPAC & Wall St. She is totally owned by them & will not push for any degree of justice for the indigenous people of Palestine who have been ethnically cleansed from THEIR land & homes by the foreigners.
Please Israel -- don't fight hate with hate. These attacks are horrible, but retributions will just damage the image and morality of the country even more.
14
Yes. When stabbed, bleed with compassion and forgiveness.
24
Yes they should instead sing kumbaya as their citizens are being slaughtered.
36
Yes, look how non-resistance in the face of hate worked for the Jews in the 1940s.
18
New York Times, this is outright racist coverage. I'm sick of it. I watched a video of a two year old girl killed by an Israeli bomb being hugged by her father and you attempt to make it sound like the Palestinians are are attacking Israelis out of the blue. You ignore the context of the occupation. Editors, writers, internet post reviewers, have you no empathy? Is this how you would have covered apartheid in South Africa? I'd love to say you are on the wrong side of history, but there is a distinct chance the Israelis will succeed in wiping out the Palestinians, partially because of resorting like this. For shame.
459
TMC, I trust you are just as critical of the coverage of violence in every region of the world.
11
The girl was killed because of Hamas war crimes. When you deliberately locate your military facilities next to civilian facilities it is a war crime. It is an attempt, obviously successful for those thumb-upping TMC's post, to sacrifice civilains in an attempt to generate sympathy for terrorists.
18
And you make it seem like Israel dropped bombs out of the blue, as if there were not thousands of missiles fired at Israel before that, which Israel tried to stop.
14
This is so sad.
No matter how long and hard you repress and subjugate other people, they will fight back.
I'm afraid Mr. Netanyahu's government has no plan or strategy how to resolve this issue.
To dominate the Palestinians is not a sustainable and long-lasting strategy.
No matter how long and hard you repress and subjugate other people, they will fight back.
I'm afraid Mr. Netanyahu's government has no plan or strategy how to resolve this issue.
To dominate the Palestinians is not a sustainable and long-lasting strategy.
311
Looks like Bibi's plan for the Palestinians - no peace partners either - is the final solution.
In the end Israel will loose . It is clear to everyone but them.
So...about that international outrage over Israeli checkpoints and the security wall? Guess it's a good idea after all.
And as for "Israel seized this area along with the West Bank during the 1967 war and later annexed it in a move that has never been internationally recognized." Do you mean the 1967 war where Jordan (original occupier of the West Bank) and other Arab nations joined forces to destroy Israel? You mean the West Bank that could have been turned over to the Palestinians years ago if they would just stop calling for Israel's destruction? You mean that one? Please be more specific next time.
And as for "Israel seized this area along with the West Bank during the 1967 war and later annexed it in a move that has never been internationally recognized." Do you mean the 1967 war where Jordan (original occupier of the West Bank) and other Arab nations joined forces to destroy Israel? You mean the West Bank that could have been turned over to the Palestinians years ago if they would just stop calling for Israel's destruction? You mean that one? Please be more specific next time.
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I agree.The Palestinian position is infused with hypocrisy as is the Western European view and frequent narrative of the reporting by the NYT.
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I'm a Max NY too, and I'm pleased to see that my own views are shared by my namesake. May I just add that Arabs have been attacking Israelis since the day the country was established in 1948--that is, well before any talk of settlements.
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Is there any possible way to believe that circumstances exist under which Israel would turn over control of the West Bank to the Palestinians? Or, if they stopped calling for Israel's destruction, would another excuse arise?
I'm 60 years old and have been pro-Israel for as long as I've been able to read a newspaper. However, it's becoming increasingly clear to me, finally after all these years, that Israel is in control of the situation, but has never found a way to implement a 2-state solution. There's always been a reason, but the fact remains that those who hold all the power in the region have kept the situation relatively static for all these years. Sometimes the powerless allow themselves to be subjugated, sometimes they fight back, but there's never any meaningful or long-term change in the plight of the Palestinians. I feel incredibly naïve that it's taken me all this time to reach a more balanced view of the situation, as I watch children with rocks and knives being killed by the forces of a nuclear power.
I'm 60 years old and have been pro-Israel for as long as I've been able to read a newspaper. However, it's becoming increasingly clear to me, finally after all these years, that Israel is in control of the situation, but has never found a way to implement a 2-state solution. There's always been a reason, but the fact remains that those who hold all the power in the region have kept the situation relatively static for all these years. Sometimes the powerless allow themselves to be subjugated, sometimes they fight back, but there's never any meaningful or long-term change in the plight of the Palestinians. I feel incredibly naïve that it's taken me all this time to reach a more balanced view of the situation, as I watch children with rocks and knives being killed by the forces of a nuclear power.
I wish they would quit calling this place "the holy land."
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Why? It's riddled with Bullet Holes and Bomb Holes...can't get much more Holey than that.
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“Muslims, we want to live in peace, but the Netanyahu government doesn’t, they’re extremists,” said Mr. Diq, 48. “We are people of peace, but whoever harms our mosque, that’s a red line.”
really? no one is harming the mosque: totally insane incitement by Palestinian officials is causing this recent wave of violence-That said I just wish Israel would get out of most of the west bank let the Palestinians drown in their own perpetual victim hood. Palestininans get more per capita aid than any other people: where does it all go???? they could be developing an economy as Israel did. what other country wins land in a war THEY DID NOT INITIATE and then give it back????
really? no one is harming the mosque: totally insane incitement by Palestinian officials is causing this recent wave of violence-That said I just wish Israel would get out of most of the west bank let the Palestinians drown in their own perpetual victim hood. Palestininans get more per capita aid than any other people: where does it all go???? they could be developing an economy as Israel did. what other country wins land in a war THEY DID NOT INITIATE and then give it back????
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"Palestininans get more per capita aid than any other people"
ARE YOU KIDDING ME? Check out the check we send to Israel every year!
ARE YOU KIDDING ME? Check out the check we send to Israel every year!
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And then look at how much Israel spends on treating injured Palestinians at its hospitals and otherwise supporting its Muslim citizens.
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You mean, like, when Israel withdrew unilaterally from Gaza and transferred all the Jewish inhabitants AND Israeli forces stationed within the Gaza Strip out of there? When benefactors sympathetic to the Palestinian future bought the agricultural hot houses there so that the Palestinians would have an economic head start for exporting produce? And like when the local Palestinians destroyed those agricultural hot houses, and instead of making Gaza the Hong Kong of the Middle East by using their brainpower and desires to improve their lives and make themselves proud, they just concentrated on blaming the Jews and Israel for their woes showing that their primary desire was to destroy Israel and only after that they would concentrate on building their own proud and economically strong nation?
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Very biased reporting, showing compassion for Israelis but none for the Palestinians. When we are finally able to show compassion for all that suffer then maybe there will be a solution.
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Really biased considering previous article and the world condones killing Israelis while they go about their day. Maybe the victims of these insults should take the perpetrators out for coffee in lieu of defending themselves. Are you that biased against Israel
40
"Very biased reporting, showing compassion for Israelis but none for the Palestinians. "
Right, by that same token, reporting seems to also be biased against ISIS. Really, you never see any compassion for ISIS, i wonder why that is.
Right, by that same token, reporting seems to also be biased against ISIS. Really, you never see any compassion for ISIS, i wonder why that is.
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I agree. I am a big fan of the Times, but have recently started following Israeli news more closely after a recent visit. I am appalled by how biased the Times is and will urge members of my synagogue to unsubscribe.
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No one can justify such violent Palistinean acts, but Perhaps it's time for Israel to recosider it's oppressive policies and pro-actively propose peace negotiations.
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Why would Israel propose peace negotiations? it has the power--and political support-- to further suppress, expand settlements, demolish homes, raze down trees, etc, and then suppress the backlash that that produces. It can get away with it. It always has. So what is different now?
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OK. With whom? Who will be the honest broker for the Palestinians who will be able to stay alive long enough to reach a peace settlement?
Secondarily, the notion of a viable Palestinian state is laughable. Is there one Arab nation absent a dictator or king that has been able to govern itself? When given the opportunity to create a working democracy has there ever been an Arab nation that didn't devolve into chaos?
Secondarily, the notion of a viable Palestinian state is laughable. Is there one Arab nation absent a dictator or king that has been able to govern itself? When given the opportunity to create a working democracy has there ever been an Arab nation that didn't devolve into chaos?
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Again. Who will be Israel's partner for peace? No one has yet stepped up.
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