I have a basic question: How is all this russophobia going to make the world a better place? How is it going to achieve peace or happiness anywhere? Why is it that whenever we see a country with a leader we don't like the first thing we think about is "regime change." "Putin is a bad guy and is bound to go eventually." But on the other hand, we push for democracy everywhere. We overthrow leaders, destabilize governments and cause thousands of deaths in order to achieve democracy. Well, Putin was democratically elected. His party has a majority in the Russian legislature. I guess from our perspective it's not "real" democracy unless we go in and write a new constitution for them, like we did in Iraq, and as we are hoping to do in Syria.
Why don't we learn to work with other countries and their leaders, rather than telling those countries how they should be governed and who should govern them, and essentially refusing to work with them until they change their governments until they are more to our liking?
If you say that Putin is in power due to the government's control over the media, show me a country in the modern world where that is not true to a greater or lesser extent. Many countries in the world and their citizens want to feel strong and independent of US influence, US manipulation, and US media.
Why don't we learn to work with other countries and their leaders, rather than telling those countries how they should be governed and who should govern them, and essentially refusing to work with them until they change their governments until they are more to our liking?
If you say that Putin is in power due to the government's control over the media, show me a country in the modern world where that is not true to a greater or lesser extent. Many countries in the world and their citizens want to feel strong and independent of US influence, US manipulation, and US media.
2
I would've liked to hear more, if there is some, about what role social media from outside Russia has on the discussion. TV, I get it. But do they get news from other sources?
1
".. a Western audience, which uniformly sees Putin portrayed as a latter-day Bond villain"
"Put another way: Propaganda works."
You said it.
"Put another way: Propaganda works."
You said it.
2
There is only one way it is going to be possible to determine whether the BUK used was Russian or Ukrainian, and that is ELINT.
The transmissions of the Fire Dome radar would certainly have been intercepted and fingerprinted by multiple US ELINT systems. Comparison with historic EORBAT radar signature data would reveal the deployment history and hence whether it was Russian or Ukrainian.
So the question for your journalists to ask the Pentagon/NSA are
1/ Did you intercept Firdome transmissions at the relevant time and place?
2/ Did the intecepts match systems in your EORBAT database?
Given that we are talking about 60s tech, there isn't any reason for the Pentagon/NSA to answer.
The transmissions of the Fire Dome radar would certainly have been intercepted and fingerprinted by multiple US ELINT systems. Comparison with historic EORBAT radar signature data would reveal the deployment history and hence whether it was Russian or Ukrainian.
So the question for your journalists to ask the Pentagon/NSA are
1/ Did you intercept Firdome transmissions at the relevant time and place?
2/ Did the intecepts match systems in your EORBAT database?
Given that we are talking about 60s tech, there isn't any reason for the Pentagon/NSA to answer.
1
"Polled in the days after the catastrophe, 46 percent of Russians said Flight 17 was felled by a Ukrainian antiaircraft system, and 36 percent believed it was the work of a Ukrainian jet — both versions that were heavily pushed by the Russian media in the immediate wake of the disaster."
Polled in the days after we invaded Iraq, what percentage of Americans would have responded that we went in to prevent Iraq's use of WMDs?
Unfortunately, in this age of ubiquitous media and sparse genuine journalism, people are not only fed what authorities want them to believe but, more significantly, people gravitate to sources that simply validate what they already believe. Therein lies the bigger problem.
Polled in the days after we invaded Iraq, what percentage of Americans would have responded that we went in to prevent Iraq's use of WMDs?
Unfortunately, in this age of ubiquitous media and sparse genuine journalism, people are not only fed what authorities want them to believe but, more significantly, people gravitate to sources that simply validate what they already believe. Therein lies the bigger problem.
3
So Putin controls the media, but he doesn't control the polling organizations which report on his "overwhelming support" from the Russian people?
Ridiculous. Ms. Ioffe and others have been pushing russophobic garbage for years, and now they have the luxury of Putin's polls to give "objective" support for their condemnations of Russians en masse.
The entirely uncritical acceptance of Putin's popularity is nearly unquestioned in the Western press, because Putin-as-all-powerful bogeyman still sells more eyeballs and is much easier to report than the much more complex currents flowing under the surface of Russian polity.
The "experts" will doubtless soon be scrambling to mouth their theories on the "entirely unexpected" and "mercurial" rejection of Putin when it inevitably arrives.
Ridiculous. Ms. Ioffe and others have been pushing russophobic garbage for years, and now they have the luxury of Putin's polls to give "objective" support for their condemnations of Russians en masse.
The entirely uncritical acceptance of Putin's popularity is nearly unquestioned in the Western press, because Putin-as-all-powerful bogeyman still sells more eyeballs and is much easier to report than the much more complex currents flowing under the surface of Russian polity.
The "experts" will doubtless soon be scrambling to mouth their theories on the "entirely unexpected" and "mercurial" rejection of Putin when it inevitably arrives.
2
Not to worry, the West needs to be patient and vigilant with Putin's Russia like it was with the Soviet Union. It will collapse on itself .... eventually.
1
FOX news and the others are our Repub propaganda machine keeping them in office. All countries have propaganda and it works.
2
Dear NYT! Your articles more and more remind me of Kiselev news reports from Russian tv. I'm disqusted from such behavior of my fellow Americans who's using well reputable news paper for promoting prorussian terror propaganda as truthful source. Before do any asumptions think about your audience and what are you promoting.
This is second time you clearly accusing Ukraine in tragedy of MH17. Why? Clearly, you are not capable of supporting your evidences for unbiased story. For reference, I agree that a lot of prorussian rebels are ukranians (at least by the passports ) and they might have some military training,but you ignoring the fact that BUK'S are not paper airplain or DIY mentos/coke bomb. BUK is highly technological complex system, that could be operated only by high skilled technitian(a military technician). So please give the answer were from "use-to-be" miners got such knowledge? The answer is evident-Russian army WAS and IS still present on Ukrainian territory. So who do you support? May be terrorists? Than go out side of your publishing building and look at that place where WTC towers used to be...
This is second time you clearly accusing Ukraine in tragedy of MH17. Why? Clearly, you are not capable of supporting your evidences for unbiased story. For reference, I agree that a lot of prorussian rebels are ukranians (at least by the passports ) and they might have some military training,but you ignoring the fact that BUK'S are not paper airplain or DIY mentos/coke bomb. BUK is highly technological complex system, that could be operated only by high skilled technitian(a military technician). So please give the answer were from "use-to-be" miners got such knowledge? The answer is evident-Russian army WAS and IS still present on Ukrainian territory. So who do you support? May be terrorists? Than go out side of your publishing building and look at that place where WTC towers used to be...
Si what are you are saying is that a country believes its own propaganda. Why that means.... no it can't be... we live in a world of manipulated illusion! Why we could be the aggressor! We could be driving Russia to war!
2
Let's imagine a criminal investigation determines Russia's responsibility. What happens next? Nothing! Nobody wants to go to war with Russia over this. Sanctions have already been imposed because of the Ukrainian issue. Russia's economy is in free fall. The world is less worried about Putin's bullying than about the probable implosion of his country, a scenario that would dwarf anything we have seen in Syria. Investigations will linger and linger and the matter will not be settled, because it is not urgent. The world does not even know how to deal with Russia's engagement in Syria. For good reasons: the situation there and in all the Middle East changes dramatically as explosive "known unknowns" are created from one day to the other.
" to a Russian viewer who sees only the strength and sagacity of Putin splashed across his screen every night, what’s not to like? "
When his heel is in your face, and your neighbors applaud, the neighbors are living in detachment. Each neighbor will take their turn--what's not to like?
When his heel is in your face, and your neighbors applaud, the neighbors are living in detachment. Each neighbor will take their turn--what's not to like?
This article notes that Putin, as one of his first acts upon taking power as president of the Russian Federation, seized control of Television in Russia and so controls, “the reality that his subjects inhabit.” Unfortunately, as a result of the Citizens United decision by the supreme court, we in the U.S. are presently and increasingly at risk that our “reality” will be/is controlled by corporations and the wealthiest in our country who can deluge the media with Soviet/Putin style propaganda, alter or displace news programs that don’t report consistent with their self-serving distorted messages, and threaten other media that offer opposing views.
3
Oh wow, finally an opportunity to see the pot calling the kettle black. Nytimes readers should remember this article every time they see a casual line coming from "anonymous government officials" of the United States being printed as fact without question or scrutiny.
1
In fact the Western media is helping Putin to maintain this alternate reality.
Yours is one of the very few articles which make a clear distinction between Russia and Putin.
The rest of the media is full of 'Russia is bombing Syrian refugees', 'Russia has brought down MH 17' and so on.
This way we actually drive the Russian population behind Putin instead of helping them to think independently.
https://nicichiarasa.wordpress.com/2015/10/09/present-day-russia/
Yours is one of the very few articles which make a clear distinction between Russia and Putin.
The rest of the media is full of 'Russia is bombing Syrian refugees', 'Russia has brought down MH 17' and so on.
This way we actually drive the Russian population behind Putin instead of helping them to think independently.
https://nicichiarasa.wordpress.com/2015/10/09/present-day-russia/
1
What I want to know is when Ukrainian Air Traffic Control tapes will be released to the public. This is a normal course of action after any air tragedy.
And if they are not to be released, why is that?
And if they are not to be released, why is that?
6
It's not like Russians are unaware of the West's explanation, or that they couldn't investigate further if they wanted to. This is one of those cases where someone's background political beliefs about which party is legitimate influence how they judge evidence. Think of how how much more likely Republicans are to believe that Obama was born in Kenya. This is just motivated reasoning.
So it's not clear to me that propaganda is causally responsible for people's beliefs in this case. Instead, propaganda seems to legitimate what people already believe: for someone not inclined to accept a version by the Dutch investigation, the fact that Russia has a response lets them feel like their position is comfortably symmetrical. They can point out that Western investigators and journalists haven't rebutted Russia's claims, however wild.
I probe my own views about the case: I, like many Russians and almost everyone else, base my beliefs about this case ultimately on testimony I read in the paper. I accept the West's version of events because I think I have strong reasons to doubt the story from the Russian media, and that I lack similar reasons to have global doubt about what I read in Western papers. I have these views largely because of my political beliefs and general worldview. I'd imagine many Russians are in a similar situation.
So it's not clear to me that propaganda is causally responsible for people's beliefs in this case. Instead, propaganda seems to legitimate what people already believe: for someone not inclined to accept a version by the Dutch investigation, the fact that Russia has a response lets them feel like their position is comfortably symmetrical. They can point out that Western investigators and journalists haven't rebutted Russia's claims, however wild.
I probe my own views about the case: I, like many Russians and almost everyone else, base my beliefs about this case ultimately on testimony I read in the paper. I accept the West's version of events because I think I have strong reasons to doubt the story from the Russian media, and that I lack similar reasons to have global doubt about what I read in Western papers. I have these views largely because of my political beliefs and general worldview. I'd imagine many Russians are in a similar situation.
12
There is a simple solution to this and so many of our other international problems. Create a truly open world wide web of wireless connectivity.
Our military launched GPS to help guide planes, ships and bombs, and now look at what a staggering effect the technology has had on every aspect of our lives.
Creating a wireless network that encompassed the majority of the planet, with no blackout spots (especially) in Russia, Iran, North Korea, etc, would allow for the transmission of free, open speech (well mostly open and free, as open and free as the US web). It would take some time, but it would open up the eyes of the populations in repressive nations with strict nationalized media outlets. Aside from preventing them from purchasing western tech, they'd have no way to prevent the spread of the data (and you might be able to take someones McDonalds Mr. Putin, but try and take their iPhone; revolts in the street).
I know Google is working on this (project Loon), but it'd be great if the DoD could toss some money this way. Just like GPS, this would surely be more effective than just buying more bullets and bombs.
Our military launched GPS to help guide planes, ships and bombs, and now look at what a staggering effect the technology has had on every aspect of our lives.
Creating a wireless network that encompassed the majority of the planet, with no blackout spots (especially) in Russia, Iran, North Korea, etc, would allow for the transmission of free, open speech (well mostly open and free, as open and free as the US web). It would take some time, but it would open up the eyes of the populations in repressive nations with strict nationalized media outlets. Aside from preventing them from purchasing western tech, they'd have no way to prevent the spread of the data (and you might be able to take someones McDonalds Mr. Putin, but try and take their iPhone; revolts in the street).
I know Google is working on this (project Loon), but it'd be great if the DoD could toss some money this way. Just like GPS, this would surely be more effective than just buying more bullets and bombs.
3
Reading the American press very quickly became clear for me that Russia is guilty only in the fact that she is alien to American values.
Here it is: "We (Americans) are right because it is we, and you (the Russians) are wrong because it is you. You are in Moscow — so you control the Kremlin. In other words: Russia, China and all other countries must put aside it's self-identity and with open arms move forward to a bright American future.
There is an exaggerated and inflated sense of self-worth and the election. BUT, the consequence of such importance should disregard all others. So what kind of "bright future" in general is all about?
I wonder, Americans understand this?
Here it is: "We (Americans) are right because it is we, and you (the Russians) are wrong because it is you. You are in Moscow — so you control the Kremlin. In other words: Russia, China and all other countries must put aside it's self-identity and with open arms move forward to a bright American future.
There is an exaggerated and inflated sense of self-worth and the election. BUT, the consequence of such importance should disregard all others. So what kind of "bright future" in general is all about?
I wonder, Americans understand this?
3
Again, that monolithic American media. Yup, Fox News and the New York Times working from the same playbook. They always print the same stories in the same fashion.How about the Dutch media? Or the French media? They taking orders from the "American media" too? Guess we'll have to get the truth from rt.com.
1
Julia Ioffe lives in a reality parallel
2
Whether it is collective madness, obsession or a denial, Russian public (the majority approving Putin's many wars) bears collective responsibility for killing these unfortunate passengers as well as many thousands of Ukrainians (majority of them ethnic Russians too). Unfortunately, former Soviet Union countries never went trough the process of full realization, repentance and reconciliation after horrific crimes committed by Soviet regime. Ukraine is only in the beginning of this path. Yes, Stalin was the son of his time, yet he killed many more people than even other horrible European dictators. So it's not surprising that so many are ready to sacrifice their "brothers" in Ukraine, civilians on the plane (some say, well, it was a mistake, as if trying to shoot Ukrainian airplane is not a crime) and now Syrians for another pointless imperial illusion. They are not innocent victims of propaganda.
12
So you think only the US have the right to self-determination? Not too much on yourself?
And about Ukrainians, please, don't even stutter. Let's compare who is closer and who lives the nearest to mentality?
And about Ukrainians, please, don't even stutter. Let's compare who is closer and who lives the nearest to mentality?
If the Ukrainians have the right to self determination, why is Russia sending its own army there to fight the central government? Same out Russian imperialism, just a new cast of characters.
I am surprised not a lie, but its scale.
Everything that does not fit in the financial-monetary system just disappears. Because honour and dignity are not estimated in money.
Everything that does not fit in the financial-monetary system just disappears. Because honour and dignity are not estimated in money.
1
On the other hand, Putin's friend have gotten incredibly wealth and his enemies have gotten dead. It is amazing that Russia still calls America a bunch of gangsters.
New York Times yellow edition. The plane was shot down by Ukraine, on the orders of U.S. intelligence. U.S. intelligence agencies always do the bases. even the twins were blown up according to their plan, even their own citizens don't.
4
The east is controlled by Putin's propaganda.. okay fine. But by the same standard Americans are controlled by Fox News and conservative pundits reporting just a false propaganda. Our news media is spiraling out of control into producing propaganda on both sides. To be honest I'd rather listen to what Al Jazeera news reporters think of all this, they probably have a better point of view.
10
"The boob tube is the key to the kingdom"as the internet. Comments, so far, address ancillary and unimportant issues and add to the Russian Potemkin Village under construction.
A civilian plane transiting airspace over Russian Army backed terrorists positioned, resupplied and reinforced by them within the territory of Ukraine. The Buk Surface to Air Missile (SAM) system could not possibly be operated by untrained people. The weapons system requires operators, components, and logistical support that only the Russian Army can supply. The presence of Russian forces has been extensively documented (see Potomac Foundation http://www.thepotomacfoundation.org/beyond-minsk-ii-prospects-for-a-new-... ). The territory from which the missile was fired was in the "contested" area where Russian forces, and their surrogates were entirely in control. So, all the references to what the United States of America, or some other western power, could have done, or what a Russian news poll shows its citizens think, just more bricks and mortar for the Potemkin village.
Russia has invaded Crimea and Eastern Ukraine. That is a fact. The territory that contained the complex SAM system was under Russian control at the time the missile was fired. All the innocent lives about Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 were lost due to this missile strike.
Now, we should all be discussing what should be done next, bringing these savage criminals to justice.
A civilian plane transiting airspace over Russian Army backed terrorists positioned, resupplied and reinforced by them within the territory of Ukraine. The Buk Surface to Air Missile (SAM) system could not possibly be operated by untrained people. The weapons system requires operators, components, and logistical support that only the Russian Army can supply. The presence of Russian forces has been extensively documented (see Potomac Foundation http://www.thepotomacfoundation.org/beyond-minsk-ii-prospects-for-a-new-... ). The territory from which the missile was fired was in the "contested" area where Russian forces, and their surrogates were entirely in control. So, all the references to what the United States of America, or some other western power, could have done, or what a Russian news poll shows its citizens think, just more bricks and mortar for the Potemkin village.
Russia has invaded Crimea and Eastern Ukraine. That is a fact. The territory that contained the complex SAM system was under Russian control at the time the missile was fired. All the innocent lives about Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 were lost due to this missile strike.
Now, we should all be discussing what should be done next, bringing these savage criminals to justice.
7
Indeed, Putin controls Russian TV. Agree. However, whether powerlords don't control media in the West? Reality of Putin is disconnected from the Western one, indeed . But who said that the latter is an absolute? Whether modern Western narrative is the Divine revelation given by God?
3
The NY Times, Washington Post, CNN, NBC, CBS, and Fox News....and yes so many self-styled critical thinkers have convinced themselves that the American media machine is somehow controlled by the right. That's just sad.
4
I visited Russia many, many times since the start of Putin's reign.
I knew that the usual Russian way of assessing of the credibility and validity of claims and ideas is different from what I'm used to in the West.
But since the start of Russia's armed aggression against Ukraine, I have observed the beliefs of Russian citizens with astonishment, dismay, and finally, despair and grief.
Even Russians who are painfully aware of the ruinous corruption of their government, and who loathe and despise Putin as a depraved criminal, seem to have accepted many of the Kremlin inventions as Fact.
I know Russian-born people living in Ukraine, who carefully explained to their friends in Russia -- and even close relatives! -- that Russian "news" was feeding them lies about Ukraine. These residents of Ukraine were able to contradict the Kremlin falsehoods with personal eye-witness testimony ... but their own flesh-and-blood family refuse to believe them!
Seeking perspective, I remind myself that we Americans often "drink the Kool-Aid" of government lies and distortions. But I am not used to seeing the near-unanimity with which Russians accept such indoctrination.
I was particularly surprised by those old enough to remember the notorious Kremlin fabrications of Soviet times. I supposed they had learned deep skepticism; instead, they concluded the everyone is deceitful, so their beliefs are much guided by emotion and faith. This renders them credulous targets for manipulation :(
I knew that the usual Russian way of assessing of the credibility and validity of claims and ideas is different from what I'm used to in the West.
But since the start of Russia's armed aggression against Ukraine, I have observed the beliefs of Russian citizens with astonishment, dismay, and finally, despair and grief.
Even Russians who are painfully aware of the ruinous corruption of their government, and who loathe and despise Putin as a depraved criminal, seem to have accepted many of the Kremlin inventions as Fact.
I know Russian-born people living in Ukraine, who carefully explained to their friends in Russia -- and even close relatives! -- that Russian "news" was feeding them lies about Ukraine. These residents of Ukraine were able to contradict the Kremlin falsehoods with personal eye-witness testimony ... but their own flesh-and-blood family refuse to believe them!
Seeking perspective, I remind myself that we Americans often "drink the Kool-Aid" of government lies and distortions. But I am not used to seeing the near-unanimity with which Russians accept such indoctrination.
I was particularly surprised by those old enough to remember the notorious Kremlin fabrications of Soviet times. I supposed they had learned deep skepticism; instead, they concluded the everyone is deceitful, so their beliefs are much guided by emotion and faith. This renders them credulous targets for manipulation :(
27
The Russian/Soviet official opinion of the Western system of government, press etc was/is that the whole "supposed" democracy, freedom of speech etc is a sham. In reality (in Russian opinion), "what average western citizens perceive is a false reality created by vast conspiracy of mainstream media and evil puppet masters".
Now, they (Russians) created in Russia what they alleged had been going on in the West for centuries. They created, in their own country, a nightmare they accused the West of living in. Talk about the ultimate evil of the propaganda backfiring.
I actually pity the Russian people. They try to understand, maybe emulate the West. They maybe see the Rockefellers, but they are blind to Idas Tarbells.
Now, they (Russians) created in Russia what they alleged had been going on in the West for centuries. They created, in their own country, a nightmare they accused the West of living in. Talk about the ultimate evil of the propaganda backfiring.
I actually pity the Russian people. They try to understand, maybe emulate the West. They maybe see the Rockefellers, but they are blind to Idas Tarbells.
10
One seemingly decisive factor in the investigation of MH17 should be US intelligence. In addition to its comprehensive global surveillance system, it’s said that US had one specific spy satellite in place right above the MH17 at the time of the shoot-down. If that was the case US should have critical information about the event, but hasn’t released anything.
I have not happened to see any discussion of this aspect in western MSM, though it isn’t a fabrication by Russian propaganda. Instead it’s something that the respected American journalist Robert Perry (winner of the Pulitzer Price for revealing the Iran-Contra scandal) has been trying to get discussed. But this US intelligence silence seems fully supported by equal media silence. Perry deals with the important question: Why this silence?
Robert Perry’s critical questions had stayed non-existent, had it not been for the Internet, which shows that our propaganda model works beautifully when it comes to Russian issues. Our propaganda is even more efficient since we, the media consumers, live in the illusory imagination that our media is free, and therefore inevitably tell the truth. How this deception is possible and even inevitable in our system was shown in some detail by Herman and Chomsky 27 years ago, in their book Manufacturing Consent.
I have not happened to see any discussion of this aspect in western MSM, though it isn’t a fabrication by Russian propaganda. Instead it’s something that the respected American journalist Robert Perry (winner of the Pulitzer Price for revealing the Iran-Contra scandal) has been trying to get discussed. But this US intelligence silence seems fully supported by equal media silence. Perry deals with the important question: Why this silence?
Robert Perry’s critical questions had stayed non-existent, had it not been for the Internet, which shows that our propaganda model works beautifully when it comes to Russian issues. Our propaganda is even more efficient since we, the media consumers, live in the illusory imagination that our media is free, and therefore inevitably tell the truth. How this deception is possible and even inevitable in our system was shown in some detail by Herman and Chomsky 27 years ago, in their book Manufacturing Consent.
8
I also wish that the satellite data would be released. I can speculate about why it has not been, but I don't know.
However, I suggest you ask yourself this question: if the satellite data WERE published, would it be accepted as genuine by even one person who accepts Russia's story?
Further, I suggest that you ask yourself another question: Dutch investigators asked the Russian Federation to release its raw air traffic radar data for the time of the MH17 catastrophe. The shootdown, which occurred close to the Russian border, was within the range of Russian radar. WHY DID RUSSIA REFUSE TO DISCLOSE THIS DATA?
Spy satellite data are usually secret, and it would be infeasible to check whether released data were authentic. However, air traffic control radar is very well known and understood around the world. Russia's radar data, IF RUSSIA WERE NOT THE MURDERER, would have been a very strong argument in Russia's favor.
The case for the missile coming from territory controlled by separatists does not need US satellite data. Please study the Dutch report! A VERY CAREFUL ANALYSIS shows that the missile did not come from territory under the control of Ukraine's government.
Also:
1) Ukraine had NO REASON WHATSOEVER to use any such missiles, because the separatists have no aircraft.
2) The social media account of Igor Girkin, "Defense Minister" of the self-styled DPR, bragged of shooting down a transport plane within minutes of the destruction of MH17. Why?
However, I suggest you ask yourself this question: if the satellite data WERE published, would it be accepted as genuine by even one person who accepts Russia's story?
Further, I suggest that you ask yourself another question: Dutch investigators asked the Russian Federation to release its raw air traffic radar data for the time of the MH17 catastrophe. The shootdown, which occurred close to the Russian border, was within the range of Russian radar. WHY DID RUSSIA REFUSE TO DISCLOSE THIS DATA?
Spy satellite data are usually secret, and it would be infeasible to check whether released data were authentic. However, air traffic control radar is very well known and understood around the world. Russia's radar data, IF RUSSIA WERE NOT THE MURDERER, would have been a very strong argument in Russia's favor.
The case for the missile coming from territory controlled by separatists does not need US satellite data. Please study the Dutch report! A VERY CAREFUL ANALYSIS shows that the missile did not come from territory under the control of Ukraine's government.
Also:
1) Ukraine had NO REASON WHATSOEVER to use any such missiles, because the separatists have no aircraft.
2) The social media account of Igor Girkin, "Defense Minister" of the self-styled DPR, bragged of shooting down a transport plane within minutes of the destruction of MH17. Why?
10
@MarkH
The speculations in your "reply" has very little to do with my post, which includes just this:
1) US intelligence probably knows exactly how MH17 was shot down
2) one distinguished US journalist finds it peculiar, and possibly revealing, that this information is kept secret
3) this journalist is obviously not allowed into mainstream media.
I certainly don't know who the perpetrator is. As for your circumstantial "evidences": there are just as many pointing in the other direction (or in any direction).
The speculations in your "reply" has very little to do with my post, which includes just this:
1) US intelligence probably knows exactly how MH17 was shot down
2) one distinguished US journalist finds it peculiar, and possibly revealing, that this information is kept secret
3) this journalist is obviously not allowed into mainstream media.
I certainly don't know who the perpetrator is. As for your circumstantial "evidences": there are just as many pointing in the other direction (or in any direction).
5
so you think that a "spy satellite is always on taking images and storing them all, transmitting them all the time. especially with the huge power budget they have operating on solar power or internal generator. Yeah, right, so much for engineering ignorance.
1
Much ado about nearly nothing.
The aircraft has been in an airspace that should have been closed to civilian traffic.
The aircraft has not been shot down by another aircraft but by a BUK based 9M38 ground to air rocket.
The Russian made BUK is in use by Russia and the Ukraine.
Both have plenty of such systems that consist of at least three parts, all of which have to be operated by skilled crews in order to make this shot possible.
And it was not the task, indeed not possible, of the Safety Board to find out who really shot down the aircraft.
So what is left is propaganda from all sides.
It does not show professional journalism when one tries to speculate with an ideological leaning towards one solution and that is that some one who has already been deemed the bad guy has to be the bad guy here too.
Both sides have had the weapons and the means to shoot down the aircraft.
Both sides are at war with each other.
Both sides have a good reason to hide the fact if it was their doing.
Sorry, but to suggest that Poroshenko has to be the god guy because he is, I am quoting again, "A bastard but he is our bastard", does not help.
Just because someone is a puppet of the West does not make him a good, let alone innocent, guy.
It would be better to stick to known facts and wait for the outcome of the criminal investigation.
Which, I assume, too will not be able to pinpoint the shooter with some acceptable degree of accuracy but will, again, leave much space for interpretation.
The aircraft has been in an airspace that should have been closed to civilian traffic.
The aircraft has not been shot down by another aircraft but by a BUK based 9M38 ground to air rocket.
The Russian made BUK is in use by Russia and the Ukraine.
Both have plenty of such systems that consist of at least three parts, all of which have to be operated by skilled crews in order to make this shot possible.
And it was not the task, indeed not possible, of the Safety Board to find out who really shot down the aircraft.
So what is left is propaganda from all sides.
It does not show professional journalism when one tries to speculate with an ideological leaning towards one solution and that is that some one who has already been deemed the bad guy has to be the bad guy here too.
Both sides have had the weapons and the means to shoot down the aircraft.
Both sides are at war with each other.
Both sides have a good reason to hide the fact if it was their doing.
Sorry, but to suggest that Poroshenko has to be the god guy because he is, I am quoting again, "A bastard but he is our bastard", does not help.
Just because someone is a puppet of the West does not make him a good, let alone innocent, guy.
It would be better to stick to known facts and wait for the outcome of the criminal investigation.
Which, I assume, too will not be able to pinpoint the shooter with some acceptable degree of accuracy but will, again, leave much space for interpretation.
9
A sane comment at last.
Russia's spin on this is so deeply disturbing that I hardly have words for it ... we in the West have spent ages worrying about Big Brother, 1984, and all other sorts of nightmare scenarios. And now here is a nation, and a leader, who embodies them all.
6
Russia's alternate history makes no difference.
We want Russia to be guilty of a crime for political reasons, which means we have a motive for not telling the truth, creating reasonable doubt.
But we can't actually do anything to Russia, even if they are guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.
Meanwhile Russia will still host the next FIFA's World Cup in 2018 because the corrupted show must go on.
Rewarding Russia's bad behavior is OUR choice, not Russia's.
We want Russia to be guilty of a crime for political reasons, which means we have a motive for not telling the truth, creating reasonable doubt.
But we can't actually do anything to Russia, even if they are guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.
Meanwhile Russia will still host the next FIFA's World Cup in 2018 because the corrupted show must go on.
Rewarding Russia's bad behavior is OUR choice, not Russia's.
3
"The Dutch report implicitly fingers the Russians"
"implicit" implies propaganda "explicit" is about facts - obviously this bar hasn't been reached in this report.
The woman who was the air controller in Kiev has not surfaced nor allowed to speak nor the tape made public on her instructions to the cockpit. why?
Further, why hasn't the US satellite records been released? nor the actual black box tapes rather than a limited summary?
this was a combat zone - so at a very high level a "policy" decision was made in Kiev as to use of air space commercially -way above the air controller level - why and how was that decision reached?
this is about politics at this stage not forensic science - why not accurately tell the story?
why hide the ball?
"implicit" implies propaganda "explicit" is about facts - obviously this bar hasn't been reached in this report.
The woman who was the air controller in Kiev has not surfaced nor allowed to speak nor the tape made public on her instructions to the cockpit. why?
Further, why hasn't the US satellite records been released? nor the actual black box tapes rather than a limited summary?
this was a combat zone - so at a very high level a "policy" decision was made in Kiev as to use of air space commercially -way above the air controller level - why and how was that decision reached?
this is about politics at this stage not forensic science - why not accurately tell the story?
why hide the ball?
9
Creative journalism aside, The Dutch investigation made the faulty assumption that all 3M38 missile use the same type of warhead. This is not the case, even according to the publicly-available information as published by Jane's Defence Weekly. The Almaz-Antey research highlights the differences in damage produced by the older warheads (still in service in Ukraine) vs the new warheads. The bottom line is that the Dutch investigators' reliance on the technical conclusions furnished by Ukraine's Justice Ministry is what will ultimately undermine the integrity of their case.
2
Putin is an ever present danger to his own Russians and the rest of us. Only the his chosen oligarchs don't have to worry. RT, Russian Television, in the USA should be banned. To hell with freedom of speech.. RT is a Kremlin propaganda machine. Can you imagine CNN broadcasting in Russia. FOX News is another story though!
1
Isn`t it wonderful that we in the west and in the US/UK in particular are free from all propaganda. Our corporate ans establishment media tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. And we - as individuals - are intelligent enough - and have been gifted with such a superior moral compass- - that our decisions on what is right and what is wrong can never be faulted.Whereas the inferior Russians are never right on anything.
Of course Iraq had weapons of mass destruction-only aRussian would say otherwise.
Of course Iraq had weapons of mass destruction-only aRussian would say otherwise.
7
NY Times map of MH17 route includes caption: "Hours before the crash, Russia had announced its own airspace restrictions near Eastern Ukraine, closing below 32,000 feet the route Flight 17 would have taken through Russia.". So since MH17 was in the air about 3 hours before crash, Russia might have closed its routes at about time that MH17 took off from Amsterdam. Question might be what Russians really knew about the route risk and obvious timing coincidence to MH17 flight. Reference: http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/07/17/world/europe/maps-of-the-c...
I'd like to see articles that probe the US and Western "alternate history" of so many critical international events. In the US, the vast majority of the population gets news from a media with highly concentrated corporate ownership that largely counts as "news" repetition of the US government line on controversial international issue. What really matters is that in the Nation that is the self-appointed world police force operates with little real investigative reporting into its activities. Oh, there is Mr. Snowden whose willingness to expose lying and spying by our government means he had to seek protection in Russia from retaliation under the US "rule of law." The Russian theories on the downing of Flight 17 make almost as much sense as Western theories, and the Dutch report does not settle the issue of who shot down the flight and why. Was it accidental? Was it intentional? Why was the airspace open to commercial airlines, and on and on. One thing for sure, the US version of this historic event will be swallowed by the US population and will support our continued villainization of Russia and Putin and further aggression - economic, military and diplomatic - against Russia. This is what matters most - US propaganda that supports even further feeding of the military-industrial complex and a state of permanent cold and hot war.
9
Never underestimate the Russian people's ability to tolerate suffering or self-deception.
4
Let's use some critical thinking here....
If the damage was from a Buk missile, why doesn't your coverage state how many Buk missiles the Ukrainian's have. The Ukrainians have many buks made by Russia according to news.
What did Russia or the Separatists have to gain from shooting down the aircraft? But didn't the West want more serious sanctions placed on Russia by the EU? Was the downing of MH17 the ticket to those serious sanctions that were passed by the EU (together with the US) shortly after this tragedy.
Where is the satellite evidence showing the trajectory and where the milssile was fired.
Just questions that come to mind and how Pres. Obama was so sure that Russia was to blame almost right away without waiting to review the evidence.
If the damage was from a Buk missile, why doesn't your coverage state how many Buk missiles the Ukrainian's have. The Ukrainians have many buks made by Russia according to news.
What did Russia or the Separatists have to gain from shooting down the aircraft? But didn't the West want more serious sanctions placed on Russia by the EU? Was the downing of MH17 the ticket to those serious sanctions that were passed by the EU (together with the US) shortly after this tragedy.
Where is the satellite evidence showing the trajectory and where the milssile was fired.
Just questions that come to mind and how Pres. Obama was so sure that Russia was to blame almost right away without waiting to review the evidence.
8
The rebels had plenty to gain if they thought it was a military plane.
4
I think most of the countries act this way. Every government defends its actions in their Media, though they trumpet that the media is independent.
What about US?
1) We defended going to war in Iraq after the media fed us with so many articles demonizing Saddam and about WMD, etc.
2) We are still defending the Insurgents in Syria, calling them freedom fighter/secular insurgents/blah blah... and we are providing them with all sorts of weapons. We saw so many articles in NYT supporting them. A recent article called some rag tag fighters from US fighting in Syria as Vigilantes, supporting them. They even dont know what they are fighting for.
3) We still demonize Russia by trying to wrong them in every thing they do.
4) We are still defending supporting the Sunni Arab states that are meddling in other countries like Yemen, Syria, etc.
Bottom line, every country does that.
What about US?
1) We defended going to war in Iraq after the media fed us with so many articles demonizing Saddam and about WMD, etc.
2) We are still defending the Insurgents in Syria, calling them freedom fighter/secular insurgents/blah blah... and we are providing them with all sorts of weapons. We saw so many articles in NYT supporting them. A recent article called some rag tag fighters from US fighting in Syria as Vigilantes, supporting them. They even dont know what they are fighting for.
3) We still demonize Russia by trying to wrong them in every thing they do.
4) We are still defending supporting the Sunni Arab states that are meddling in other countries like Yemen, Syria, etc.
Bottom line, every country does that.
7
Given NATO's ineptitude in Syria and its incompetent intelligence work, which report seems more credible?
Might we even begin to doubt the US Military is able to defend continental USA?
Overextended, with it's reliance on obsolete aircraft carriers, can the US still lead the West? What was the last war the US or NATO actually won?
Might we even begin to doubt the US Military is able to defend continental USA?
Overextended, with it's reliance on obsolete aircraft carriers, can the US still lead the West? What was the last war the US or NATO actually won?
"Propaganda works. Putin has understood that from Day 1"
If only the Roberts court also understood that ( although I strongly suspect that they understand it only too well)
If only the Roberts court also understood that ( although I strongly suspect that they understand it only too well)
On July 20, 2014, Secretary of State Kerry declared on NBC’s “Meet the Press” that “we picked up the imagery of this launch. We know the trajectory. We know where it came from. We know the timing. And it was exactly at the time that this aircraft disappeared from the radar.”
Yet over a year later none of this information has been released. The US has had spy satellites perched over the region for years. It also has radar of the area. And yet after Kerry's announcement this "evidence" has never been produced, not even, apparently, to the Dutch since they don't quote from it. Likewise, the government in Kiev declared the control tower conversations at the time of the crash secret. Kiev has never accounted for its BUK missiles in the area. Considering that that Kiev had those missiles and the rebels did not it would behoove investigators to know if the Ukrainian army had fired a BUK against the rebels (who don't have an air force).
It would seem to be the easiest thing to prove where the missile came from. Kerry said the US has that information. Then there is the problem of the airliner being hit from the left side. Rebel lines were on the right side of the airline's path, the Ukrainian army, which actually had BUK missiles, was on the left side of the airline's path. Otherwise....
Yet over a year later none of this information has been released. The US has had spy satellites perched over the region for years. It also has radar of the area. And yet after Kerry's announcement this "evidence" has never been produced, not even, apparently, to the Dutch since they don't quote from it. Likewise, the government in Kiev declared the control tower conversations at the time of the crash secret. Kiev has never accounted for its BUK missiles in the area. Considering that that Kiev had those missiles and the rebels did not it would behoove investigators to know if the Ukrainian army had fired a BUK against the rebels (who don't have an air force).
It would seem to be the easiest thing to prove where the missile came from. Kerry said the US has that information. Then there is the problem of the airliner being hit from the left side. Rebel lines were on the right side of the airline's path, the Ukrainian army, which actually had BUK missiles, was on the left side of the airline's path. Otherwise....
3
Seems to me we can look much closer to home for those that "deliberately muddy the waters", promulgate vast amounts of propaganda on networks controlled by political and monied interests, and live in a parallel reality. Similarities to the Republican party seem to jump out and scream, here I am.
2
If it was just the Dutch and Americans, yes, the Russian propaganda could insulate Putin and his "separatist" allies. But the Malaysian government has pointed their finger at Moscow, too. And when the lawyers *really* get involved, propaganda will not help the Kremlin. This report is only a shot across the bow, not the actual battle.
Link?
There is a lesson here... control the media discourse regarding a subject or situation and you can control and shape public opinion... which many in the public consider "the facts". While it is clearly understood that since the days of the Soviet Union the totalitarian powers that have ruled Russia understand this well, what might be less clear at first look is that the same dynamic works in the West. The continuing "debate" about climate change, despite the essentially settled science of the issue (that is, the objective facts) is clearly evidence. What is good cause for a pause and consideration is that since Citizen's United, the ability to manipulate the media, either overtly by advertising or covertly through 'owning the network' is understood and practiced by those with the resources to do so in this country. It is no mistake, and no idle promise that the Koch's and their like-minded cabal plan to spend up to $900 million on the next round of elections... that spending will shape and form the "facts" which millions of citizens believe, and just as Putin exercise his media power through force of the state, certain elements in the US are exercising media power through their wealth. Given they are wealthy because they usually get good returns on their investments, we should wonder what returns they will be expecting for this huge outlay. Claims of 'patriotic disinterest' don't hold up to clear-minded examination.
"They may be inexplicable to a Western audience, which uniformly sees Putin portrayed as a latter-day Bond villain"...
And this is the result of western fragmented, unfiltered, self-tailored information i guess.
And this is the result of western fragmented, unfiltered, self-tailored information i guess.
2
If this act was intentional and not a case of mistake, then motive matters.
1.Russians shoot down an airliner to be inundated with bad press, more harsh sanctions, gaining NOTHING.
2. Separatists shoot down an airliner to gain bad press, falling support, while gaining NOTHING..
3. Ukrainian right wing nationalist militia (the same body of people that just killed three policeman in Kiev while demonstrating against a bill that would help solve this war,) shoot down an airliner with one their stock of older Russian missiles. The object being exactly what we have ongoing: pinning the blame on Russians/Separatists, gaining massive US public support for their corrupt regime in Kiev, and possibly tipping the scales so that billions of US dollars fall into their lap.
I don't know who fired the missile. On the other hand, from Wikipedia: "Cui bono literally "to whose benefit?", is a Latin phrase which is still used. It is the key forensic question in legal and police investigation to find who has a motive for a crime."
1.Russians shoot down an airliner to be inundated with bad press, more harsh sanctions, gaining NOTHING.
2. Separatists shoot down an airliner to gain bad press, falling support, while gaining NOTHING..
3. Ukrainian right wing nationalist militia (the same body of people that just killed three policeman in Kiev while demonstrating against a bill that would help solve this war,) shoot down an airliner with one their stock of older Russian missiles. The object being exactly what we have ongoing: pinning the blame on Russians/Separatists, gaining massive US public support for their corrupt regime in Kiev, and possibly tipping the scales so that billions of US dollars fall into their lap.
I don't know who fired the missile. On the other hand, from Wikipedia: "Cui bono literally "to whose benefit?", is a Latin phrase which is still used. It is the key forensic question in legal and police investigation to find who has a motive for a crime."
4
Benefit to shooting down a Ukrainian military plane--CONSIDERABLE. As has been pointed out elsewhere, a BuK unconnected to a larger system would have difficulty telling friend from foe, especially one with an inexperienced crew. However, recklessness, as committed by both the crew and those who gave such a system to an inexperienced crew, is arguably criminal.
http://www.businessinsider.com/the-flaw-in-the-buk-missile-system-2014-7
As to who fired the missile, although the Dutch investigation didn't have that within their remit, the head of that did comment to reporters afterwards that the missile was fired from rebel-held territory.
http://www.businessinsider.com/the-flaw-in-the-buk-missile-system-2014-7
As to who fired the missile, although the Dutch investigation didn't have that within their remit, the head of that did comment to reporters afterwards that the missile was fired from rebel-held territory.
3
CK, Rye,
4. Fake separatists, managed and lead by Russia, manage to shoot down a Ukrainian military plane flying at 30,000 feet showing their superior fire power and their ability to control the skies over eastern Ukraine thereby totally shutting down the very limited Ukrainian air force.
Only, they target and destroy a civilian aircraft instead because of their total ineptitude. Realizing their mistake once it made known to their leaders, they try to wipe away their boastful posts on social media and do everything they can, including getting that Buk missile system back into Russia, to try to cover up their error and their crime.
As for your #3, that is just typical Kremlin propaganda used to muddy the waters so that my #4, which is far closer to the truth, doesn't seem so truthful.
4. Fake separatists, managed and lead by Russia, manage to shoot down a Ukrainian military plane flying at 30,000 feet showing their superior fire power and their ability to control the skies over eastern Ukraine thereby totally shutting down the very limited Ukrainian air force.
Only, they target and destroy a civilian aircraft instead because of their total ineptitude. Realizing their mistake once it made known to their leaders, they try to wipe away their boastful posts on social media and do everything they can, including getting that Buk missile system back into Russia, to try to cover up their error and their crime.
As for your #3, that is just typical Kremlin propaganda used to muddy the waters so that my #4, which is far closer to the truth, doesn't seem so truthful.
3
Strangely enough stories in US media like infamous aluminum tubes led to the same results prior 2003 Iraq invasion.
3
We are Russia but just not as good as them in manipulating its population. At the beginning of the Iraq war 70% of Americans thought there were weapons of mass destruction. Today, more than 50% still think there were weapons of mass destruction.
3
At least the US media can dig into those lies and expose those who spread them.
Yes, the propaganda coming out the W. Bush White House was breathtaking in its scope and its effectiveness.
But at least the US does have an independent media which doesn't have to swallow the lies unlike Russia.
There is no comparison.
Yes, the propaganda coming out the W. Bush White House was breathtaking in its scope and its effectiveness.
But at least the US does have an independent media which doesn't have to swallow the lies unlike Russia.
There is no comparison.
3
This is not a defense of Russia, who routinely manipulates its domestic media to fuel Putin's propaganda machine. We are only marginally better, however.
We had most of the country convinced we need to invade Iraq. Our military worked on controlling the press by now showing bodybags from AFG and IRQ, like we did nightly during the Vietnam war. We diluted ourselves into thinking Arab Spring implies if they have smartphones and a FaceBook accounts, they are ready to transform their societies to be more like ours -and then Libya, Syria, Yemen,.... We forgot to show the neo Nazis who comprise a good segment of Ukraine's population and elected officials. We are very selective on covering stories that paint a critical picture of Israel. We don't report on US cyber attacks on other countries.
Manipulating the media is what governments have attempted to and will continue to do. Be it covert, or overt, like RT, Xinhua, PressTV, etc.
We had most of the country convinced we need to invade Iraq. Our military worked on controlling the press by now showing bodybags from AFG and IRQ, like we did nightly during the Vietnam war. We diluted ourselves into thinking Arab Spring implies if they have smartphones and a FaceBook accounts, they are ready to transform their societies to be more like ours -and then Libya, Syria, Yemen,.... We forgot to show the neo Nazis who comprise a good segment of Ukraine's population and elected officials. We are very selective on covering stories that paint a critical picture of Israel. We don't report on US cyber attacks on other countries.
Manipulating the media is what governments have attempted to and will continue to do. Be it covert, or overt, like RT, Xinhua, PressTV, etc.
5
So in Russia the media distorts the truth. But in the United States, with the assistance of the Supreme court, the rich can dominate the media and the government in the same way Putin does today in Russia. I don't think there is much point to voting in Russia, the real decisions are made by others. It seems to be about the same in the United States.
4
Dude you really have no idea how Putin dominates. We have major problems but we are not a dictatorship, where opponents are gunned down on the street.
1
Thank you Larryat24 for the classic Soviet 'whataboutism.'
This isn't about the US. It's about the terror attack on a civilian airline that murdered 298 innocent people.
Do please keep that in mind.
This isn't about the US. It's about the terror attack on a civilian airline that murdered 298 innocent people.
Do please keep that in mind.
2
The propaganda that the Kremlin pushes out to the general population on a regular basis is just stunning in its lies, hypocrisy and mendacity.
The downing of MH 17 certainly needed as much Russian propaganda as they could throw out there. And throw it they did.
The wild and varied stories are breathtaking in their absurdity but the people lap it up.
Russian media has been found guilty in many instances of producing flat out false stories regarding MH17. One of the most egregious was supposed satellite photos showing the plane being shot down by a Ukrainian military jet.
Those photos were very quickly ripped apart by the internet and proven to be very bad and clumsy Photoshop jobs but, of course, no apology or correction from the Russian media.
If the West wants to counter Russian propaganda, it needs to do a much better job than it is doing now, that's for certain.
And, with the date of the report's release known in advance, perhaps Russia decided to enter the war in Syria as a way of ensuring that the story of MH17 stayed in the background.
My cynical view of this is based on the reality on the ground here in Russia. The Kremlin will do anything and everything to paint Putin in the best possible light. And if that includes dead Syrians, so be it.
The downing of MH 17 certainly needed as much Russian propaganda as they could throw out there. And throw it they did.
The wild and varied stories are breathtaking in their absurdity but the people lap it up.
Russian media has been found guilty in many instances of producing flat out false stories regarding MH17. One of the most egregious was supposed satellite photos showing the plane being shot down by a Ukrainian military jet.
Those photos were very quickly ripped apart by the internet and proven to be very bad and clumsy Photoshop jobs but, of course, no apology or correction from the Russian media.
If the West wants to counter Russian propaganda, it needs to do a much better job than it is doing now, that's for certain.
And, with the date of the report's release known in advance, perhaps Russia decided to enter the war in Syria as a way of ensuring that the story of MH17 stayed in the background.
My cynical view of this is based on the reality on the ground here in Russia. The Kremlin will do anything and everything to paint Putin in the best possible light. And if that includes dead Syrians, so be it.
5
Roger, I doubt that the Russian propaganda can be effectively countered inside Russia. It seems that most people there will CHOOSE to believe in the Russian TV version. If you believe in the alternative, you should DO something. Ouch, dangerous. So living in a cognitive dissonance? Most people resolve the dissonance by choosing to believe what is safe to believe in.
But the long-term consequences for Russia might be fatal. It seems that after the Soviet system lost the Cold War they decided to organize Russia along the lines they THINK the winner - West/US - is organized. Hence the caricature of democracy etc. And it seems they are in the feedback loop. The more they lose, the more they try to mimic the "diabolic behavior" of the West - as they propaganda describes. Because the "diabolic West" is winning, you see? And they create the hell in their own country, the hell they constantly accuse the West to be.
But the long-term consequences for Russia might be fatal. It seems that after the Soviet system lost the Cold War they decided to organize Russia along the lines they THINK the winner - West/US - is organized. Hence the caricature of democracy etc. And it seems they are in the feedback loop. The more they lose, the more they try to mimic the "diabolic behavior" of the West - as they propaganda describes. Because the "diabolic West" is winning, you see? And they create the hell in their own country, the hell they constantly accuse the West to be.
3
Alternate history ? Uh, sure. The plane hadn't been on the ground more than an hour, before CNN, the BBC and virtually every other Western news organisation had declared Russia the culprit. When it comes to Russia, we skip the trial and race straight to sentencing. It's dangerous, and more importantly, isolating Russia has done nothing to bring them to the table of cooperation. For the record, the Dutch report is inconclusive. The preliminary report was inconclusive, and this new report is also inconclusive.
3
The problem with you Kremlin apologists is that no report would ever be conclusive enough for you unless it totally absolved Russia for any wrongdoing.
This report is VERY conclusive, especially considering the missile projectiles removed from the bodies of those killed in the cockpit when the missile exploded.
These fragments match the Russian made Buk missile. The Dutch even referred to the exact model number of the missile in their report based on the fragments recovered.
You can chose to bury your head in the sand to the reality of the facts but that won't change them.
This report is VERY conclusive, especially considering the missile projectiles removed from the bodies of those killed in the cockpit when the missile exploded.
These fragments match the Russian made Buk missile. The Dutch even referred to the exact model number of the missile in their report based on the fragments recovered.
You can chose to bury your head in the sand to the reality of the facts but that won't change them.
2
There can be no way Russia is in any way at fault. After all I read it all the time in the comments section about how the US, and by extension the Ukraine, are at fault. Russia poor Russia. Sigh. And now they have been forced to defend women and children in Syria against the bad US again.
1
"The West can’t seem to puncture Russian television’s hermetic seal, or understand what Putin has always known: The boob tube is the key to the kingdom."
Well, don't anyone tell Rupert Murdoch about this.....
Well, don't anyone tell Rupert Murdoch about this.....
1
When reading that “Moscow’s intervention in Syria may offer the first glimmer of hope”
(in today’s OP-ED by G.Adams and S.Walt) I was surprised by authors’ understatement.
After all, isn't Putin always flashing hope left and right?
(in today’s OP-ED by G.Adams and S.Walt) I was surprised by authors’ understatement.
After all, isn't Putin always flashing hope left and right?
"Controlling the television screen means controlling the reality that his subjects inhabit".
As I NYT reader, I feel that control, too. Read the astoundingly tilted comments on any articles about the invasion of Ukraine or Putin's war on sunnis in Syria.
For some of us, it's impossible not to note dozen of commentators echoing RTs coverage, which has a clear intellectual heritage. According to the Times of Israel, http://tinyurl.com/pvxayt9, Putin said in 2014 to a meeting of rabbis:
“Unfortunately, just like 70 years ago, this shamelessness often achieves its purposes. After all, [Joseph] Goebbels had said, ‘The more improbable the lie, the faster people believe it.’ And it worked out; he was a talented man.”
That was more than irony.
As I NYT reader, I feel that control, too. Read the astoundingly tilted comments on any articles about the invasion of Ukraine or Putin's war on sunnis in Syria.
For some of us, it's impossible not to note dozen of commentators echoing RTs coverage, which has a clear intellectual heritage. According to the Times of Israel, http://tinyurl.com/pvxayt9, Putin said in 2014 to a meeting of rabbis:
“Unfortunately, just like 70 years ago, this shamelessness often achieves its purposes. After all, [Joseph] Goebbels had said, ‘The more improbable the lie, the faster people believe it.’ And it worked out; he was a talented man.”
That was more than irony.
12
"The West can't seem to puncture Russian television's hermetic seal, or understand what Putin has always known: The boob tube is the key to the kingdom."
There is one man in America right now who understands this very well and his bluster and blow is not unlike that of the rootin', tootin', shootin' Putin. Yes, its our very own media savvy mogul, Donald Trump and he's turning on the hearts and minds of Americans. Why? Because he has passion, he has what Jungian Gestalt calls phallic power and not even the mighty New York Times can look away from the spectacle. There he is day after day on the front page, while the issues as espoused by the serious run a distant second.
Are we really that different from the Russians in this regard? How many of us stood up and declared ourselves against the wildly popular "Shock and Awe" invasion of Iraq? Did we all march in lockstep to uphold that decision because we were so well informed or were we all as gobsmacked as the Russians by our own rootin', tootin', shootin" Commander in Chief?
I'm getting tired of this Hollywood caricature of Russian ignorance given how little it differs from the American version. Here we call it patriotism and it takes us all to war the same way the Russians are taken to war. Through propaganda!
There is one man in America right now who understands this very well and his bluster and blow is not unlike that of the rootin', tootin', shootin' Putin. Yes, its our very own media savvy mogul, Donald Trump and he's turning on the hearts and minds of Americans. Why? Because he has passion, he has what Jungian Gestalt calls phallic power and not even the mighty New York Times can look away from the spectacle. There he is day after day on the front page, while the issues as espoused by the serious run a distant second.
Are we really that different from the Russians in this regard? How many of us stood up and declared ourselves against the wildly popular "Shock and Awe" invasion of Iraq? Did we all march in lockstep to uphold that decision because we were so well informed or were we all as gobsmacked as the Russians by our own rootin', tootin', shootin" Commander in Chief?
I'm getting tired of this Hollywood caricature of Russian ignorance given how little it differs from the American version. Here we call it patriotism and it takes us all to war the same way the Russians are taken to war. Through propaganda!
50
Trump isn't changing any minds, for better or worse he's just reaching people who have always held those opinions. As well, his days in the limelight are numbered, his act is at best is one that plays only during the primaries because it doesn't reflect anything resembling a large portion of American public opinion.
Regardless, the answer to your big question is yes we are different. We have plenty of propaganda and more than our share of patriotism (speaking as an American, i'll let you speak for Canada), but we're still not approaching a dictatorship with the breakneck speed that Russia saw. There are also plenty of opportunities to question and plenty opposed the war though getting people to listen can be hard.
Finally, isolation does beget ignorance whether it tends to be self-imposed by an American sense of exceptionalism or pushed upon a country by a leader with that same failing. And many Americans have never felt that separated from the international community anyway and for the others it is a problem that can be overcome. As for Russia, until you see change at the top it doesn't seem to matter one way or another.
Regardless, the answer to your big question is yes we are different. We have plenty of propaganda and more than our share of patriotism (speaking as an American, i'll let you speak for Canada), but we're still not approaching a dictatorship with the breakneck speed that Russia saw. There are also plenty of opportunities to question and plenty opposed the war though getting people to listen can be hard.
Finally, isolation does beget ignorance whether it tends to be self-imposed by an American sense of exceptionalism or pushed upon a country by a leader with that same failing. And many Americans have never felt that separated from the international community anyway and for the others it is a problem that can be overcome. As for Russia, until you see change at the top it doesn't seem to matter one way or another.
2
One huge difference is that while in 2002-2003 the C-in-C and his minions were blathering on about "a smoking gun in the form of a mushroom cloud," just about every newspaper in the country was indeed informing the American public about the fact that Hans Blix and the teams of UN inspectors were on the ground in Iraq for four full months before, as Pete Seeger put it in another war, "the big fool said to push on."
Yes, one branch of the government was indeed propagandizing, but truth was indeed being offered to the people through the media. Perhaps the real problem is that "a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest"* whether it's about war or global warming - we are exposed to the truth; we just prefer to ignore it.
*Simon & Garfunkle
Yes, one branch of the government was indeed propagandizing, but truth was indeed being offered to the people through the media. Perhaps the real problem is that "a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest"* whether it's about war or global warming - we are exposed to the truth; we just prefer to ignore it.
*Simon & Garfunkle
Fox News and the Republican Party are very familiar with Putin's use of the media. They operate the same way. Tell a lie often enough, and people will believe it. Cherry-pick the facts. Heap praise on those you agree with. Hate those with opposing views. The treatment of President Obama is a perfect example.
37
And the NY Times did its fair share in helping convince the ignorant masses to invade Iraq!
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And the NY Times ran a front page apology for having not done a better job in being more critical of the propaganda coming out of the White House at the time.
They also fired Judith Miller for her slanted reporting.
When was the last time Fox has ever done anything like that?
They also fired Judith Miller for her slanted reporting.
When was the last time Fox has ever done anything like that?
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OK, if American and Russian methods are the same then why are the End results are so different? I mean, look at the South Korea modeled after America and The North Korea adopted Russian model - see the difference? That's what the Article is about.
"The boob tube is the key to the kingdom". Noam Chomsky figured that out awhile ago. It is a factor at play in the West as well, albeit in a far more subtle fashion.
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The Kremlin’s primary tactics in these situations are whataboutism and making viral a huge number of alternate theories, some of which are intentionally absurd. (Why? Because the fact that absurd theories are even being discussed helps undermine the notion that reality can ever be known.)
What apologists for the Kremlin don’t get is that mistakes and crimes are not the same thing. The crime in Ukraine was not that the separatists shot down a civilian plane. They honestly thought it was a Ukrainian military jet. That was a mistake.
The crime was that untrained, unsupervised combatants were given a Buk to play with in the first place. This is a missile that can shoot down civilian airliners flying up to 75,000 feet above the planet. Not a toy for amateurs.
Apologists’ other angle is that this was the fault of Ukraine for allowing civilian aircraft to fly overhead. Why did Kiev allow that?
Because amateur combatants don’t have weapons that can shoot that high. Russia’s separatists don’t even have airplanes. It never occurred to anyone they might shoot a passenger jet out of the air at 33,000 feet. That’s why 160 civilian planes flew over east Ukraine that day. Obviously, it didn’t occur to the airliners either.
So that too was a mistake that seems obvious only in retrospect. But a mistake is a not a crime. They are different notions entirely.
What apologists for the Kremlin don’t get is that mistakes and crimes are not the same thing. The crime in Ukraine was not that the separatists shot down a civilian plane. They honestly thought it was a Ukrainian military jet. That was a mistake.
The crime was that untrained, unsupervised combatants were given a Buk to play with in the first place. This is a missile that can shoot down civilian airliners flying up to 75,000 feet above the planet. Not a toy for amateurs.
Apologists’ other angle is that this was the fault of Ukraine for allowing civilian aircraft to fly overhead. Why did Kiev allow that?
Because amateur combatants don’t have weapons that can shoot that high. Russia’s separatists don’t even have airplanes. It never occurred to anyone they might shoot a passenger jet out of the air at 33,000 feet. That’s why 160 civilian planes flew over east Ukraine that day. Obviously, it didn’t occur to the airliners either.
So that too was a mistake that seems obvious only in retrospect. But a mistake is a not a crime. They are different notions entirely.
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Your comment assumes that the Buk was given to unskilled combatants. Thing is, most likely it wasn't - those were russian army officers pushing buttons. Have you seen Buk controls from inside? It's an extremely complex piece of equipment that requires years of training. Not that it's a big secret that "ukrainian rebels" are for the most part russian regular army and russian terrorists, trained and armed by russian army. I.e. russian soldiers and russian soldiers.
I guess this is the reason why MH17 report doesn't point at shooters. If you say A, you have to say B. If you blame russian army, you blame its commanders. If you blame commanders, you blame Putin. If you blame Putin, you have to be ready to enforce the trial decision somehow. Do you see soft-skinned EU doing that? Me neither.
I guess this is the reason why MH17 report doesn't point at shooters. If you say A, you have to say B. If you blame russian army, you blame its commanders. If you blame commanders, you blame Putin. If you blame Putin, you have to be ready to enforce the trial decision somehow. Do you see soft-skinned EU doing that? Me neither.
To MeriJ: You think "separatists honestly thought it was a Ukrainian military jet". What exactly led you to this conclusion?
Excellent analysis. It is similar to what Yale's Timothy Snyder who specializes in the history of Central and Eastern Europe said about Russian propaganda: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foSg6Ch97V4
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That 3% mentioned may not be "westernized", they might just be brazen.
The real question is WHO fired the missile and this will probably will never known.
Some flights avoided this general area just to be on a 'safe side'. Apparently, there was no warning issued by any governmental agency in the area.
It it useful to return to that tragedy more than a year later? Frankly, I do not think so - we have not learned (as the article says) anything new.
Unlike other tragedies where the reason for a major loss of life has been determined, it is not likely to know what really happened to this particular flight.
The only lesson is: civilian transport should avoid certain areas (more of them now than a year ago) regardless of the warnings from nearby governmental agencies.
Some flights avoided this general area just to be on a 'safe side'. Apparently, there was no warning issued by any governmental agency in the area.
It it useful to return to that tragedy more than a year later? Frankly, I do not think so - we have not learned (as the article says) anything new.
Unlike other tragedies where the reason for a major loss of life has been determined, it is not likely to know what really happened to this particular flight.
The only lesson is: civilian transport should avoid certain areas (more of them now than a year ago) regardless of the warnings from nearby governmental agencies.
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Tragedy is not likely to know anything,unless
it is watching RT.
it is watching RT.
It is quite useful. It highlights the nature and consequences of Russian support for the Donbass secessionists. Further, the findings of the Dutch investigation themselves are a new development representing the product of a detailed investigation. Further, as the article said, we do know what really happened to MH 17, it was shot down by a BuK surface-to-air missile.
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This is a rather absurd comment. Airline accident investigations can go on for years. The hunt for MH370 is still ongoing and it disappeared months before MH17 was shot down.
Air France and Airbus spent two years hunting for the black boxes of flight AF447 when it crashed in the Atlantic.
The victims, and their families and friends, of this deliberate shoot down deserve to know who, exactly, gave the order than ended 298 innocent lives.
This investigation should be far from over.
Air France and Airbus spent two years hunting for the black boxes of flight AF447 when it crashed in the Atlantic.
The victims, and their families and friends, of this deliberate shoot down deserve to know who, exactly, gave the order than ended 298 innocent lives.
This investigation should be far from over.
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The article ends, "The boob tube is the key to the kingdom."
Who controls our boob tubes in the year leading up to a critical election? Those 138 families (118 for the Republicans) who can buy up all the political advertising time, putting out their political propaganda 24/7. Their control doesn't have to deliver 97% agreement, either, because it's not a question of whether you don't want to believe you and your fellow citizens are ultimately responsible for shooting down a civilian airliner.
All the U.S. boob tube needs to do is make certain that 10% of our credulous consumers -- enough to tip the election -- drink the koolaid supplied by Citizens United, and democracy here is headed to where it went in Putin's Russia.
Who controls our boob tubes in the year leading up to a critical election? Those 138 families (118 for the Republicans) who can buy up all the political advertising time, putting out their political propaganda 24/7. Their control doesn't have to deliver 97% agreement, either, because it's not a question of whether you don't want to believe you and your fellow citizens are ultimately responsible for shooting down a civilian airliner.
All the U.S. boob tube needs to do is make certain that 10% of our credulous consumers -- enough to tip the election -- drink the koolaid supplied by Citizens United, and democracy here is headed to where it went in Putin's Russia.
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Don't Russians wonder why their alternative media has disappeared? Don't they read different reports over the Internet or does Putin have complete control of information going into Russia?
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Unfortunately this is a practical example of how fragile and social-contract based is the freedom of expression. They did not have to kill that many journalists in Russia in the last 20 years, perhaps about a hundred. Several times this number had been intimidated. Financial and administrative pressures ("we will REALLY check if your newspaper had paid all taxes, never mind you did not hear about THESE taxes"). Offers you cannot refuse to private TV owners. And this is enough, in a country of 140 millions. Russians have all the access to Western news sources (no Great Cyberwall, like in China). They even think they think wholly independently.
They in fact CAN say/think privately whatever they want, they can curse Putin, government, whatever in their kitchens without fear that if someone hears and snitches they would end up in Gulag.
But if you try to organize, to say something to many people - you are in trouble, and Russians seem to know this, and they seemingly do not want to think about it too deeply.
So the common reaction is (it seems) - resolve the cognitive dissonance by making yourself believe you really believe in what is safe to believe - "the whole world is after us Russians". "What I see on the Russian TV is true, mostly".
Most people will not go out on streets for something apparently so insignificant as the freedom of expression. But somehow the consequence is the whole country committing a national suicide.
They in fact CAN say/think privately whatever they want, they can curse Putin, government, whatever in their kitchens without fear that if someone hears and snitches they would end up in Gulag.
But if you try to organize, to say something to many people - you are in trouble, and Russians seem to know this, and they seemingly do not want to think about it too deeply.
So the common reaction is (it seems) - resolve the cognitive dissonance by making yourself believe you really believe in what is safe to believe - "the whole world is after us Russians". "What I see on the Russian TV is true, mostly".
Most people will not go out on streets for something apparently so insignificant as the freedom of expression. But somehow the consequence is the whole country committing a national suicide.
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First, the Kremlin just flat out bought existing TV stations.
Second, the ones it didn't buy out, it got cronies to buy. There is a reason Gazprom, an oil and gas company controlled by the Kremlin, has a full fledged media arm.
Third, the alternative media was slandered and smeared in the Kremlin owned/controlled media in such a way that people looked at it with disgust and did not object when it disappeared.
Fourth, once the slander campaign was under way, the Kremlin then put pressure on the TV providers, namely satellite and internet providers, to no longer carry the channel. This 'request' was usually followed with a not so subtle 'or else' so they complied.
After this, the alternative media is neutralized and most people don't even miss it.
The perfect example would be the TV station Dozdh [Rain]. It dared to do a televised poll asking Russians if Stalin was correct in letting the siege of Leningrad continue or if he should have just surrendered the city to save the population.
In the US or the EU, such an academic question is asked and debated all the time.
Not in Putin's Russia.
The channel was forced off of many provider's networks. Then they lost their studio space as the landlord canceled their lease. No one else would rent them space. Last I heard, they were operating out of someone's living room in an undisclosed location and are an internet only operation, if they are even still around.
So, that is why there is no alternative media inside Russia today.
Second, the ones it didn't buy out, it got cronies to buy. There is a reason Gazprom, an oil and gas company controlled by the Kremlin, has a full fledged media arm.
Third, the alternative media was slandered and smeared in the Kremlin owned/controlled media in such a way that people looked at it with disgust and did not object when it disappeared.
Fourth, once the slander campaign was under way, the Kremlin then put pressure on the TV providers, namely satellite and internet providers, to no longer carry the channel. This 'request' was usually followed with a not so subtle 'or else' so they complied.
After this, the alternative media is neutralized and most people don't even miss it.
The perfect example would be the TV station Dozdh [Rain]. It dared to do a televised poll asking Russians if Stalin was correct in letting the siege of Leningrad continue or if he should have just surrendered the city to save the population.
In the US or the EU, such an academic question is asked and debated all the time.
Not in Putin's Russia.
The channel was forced off of many provider's networks. Then they lost their studio space as the landlord canceled their lease. No one else would rent them space. Last I heard, they were operating out of someone's living room in an undisclosed location and are an internet only operation, if they are even still around.
So, that is why there is no alternative media inside Russia today.
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One of the most amazing aspects of this thing is that in America, the traditionally anti-communist Right admires Putin and yearns for a leader just like him. America has its own right wing propaganda, though it's not run by the state. In America you don't need government to have crazies.
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"Put another way: Propaganda works."
Yes, New York Times, propaganda does work – and not only when the Russians do it.
How about taking this skeptical attitude toward self-serving government pronouncements and applying it to what comes out of Washington, too?
Your skepticism would be a lot more credible if your news articles about U. S. government and military behavior weren't all based on what "officials say." As it stands, this article is simply cheap posturing against an Enemy of the State.
Yes, New York Times, propaganda does work – and not only when the Russians do it.
How about taking this skeptical attitude toward self-serving government pronouncements and applying it to what comes out of Washington, too?
Your skepticism would be a lot more credible if your news articles about U. S. government and military behavior weren't all based on what "officials say." As it stands, this article is simply cheap posturing against an Enemy of the State.
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To Steve H: Well said,Sir. This article is undeniably posturing against an Enemy of the Russian State. And it is comparatively very cheap; Enemy has overwhelming financial advantage over Times.
This article isn't about the United States. It's about the shooting down of a civilian aircraft by either Russian lead rebel forces or by the Russian military itself.
It has nothing to do wth the US government, especially considering that the US government was not even involved in this investigation.
It has nothing to do wth the US government, especially considering that the US government was not even involved in this investigation.
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I think this will be yet another article where the Russian trolls come out to play.
The retort will be simple. It will be, "No, Western Media is propaganda fueled by the CIA. The US arms terrorists and Nazis."
How many of these responses will we get? 100? 200? All I know is that it will be a busy couple of days in St. Petersburg.
The retort will be simple. It will be, "No, Western Media is propaganda fueled by the CIA. The US arms terrorists and Nazis."
How many of these responses will we get? 100? 200? All I know is that it will be a busy couple of days in St. Petersburg.
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The NYT was one of the first major American papers that exposed Putin's troll factories. Looks like they are doing a fine job so far filtering out the most hateful and fanatical lies from the Putinbots.
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At least you are out already.
Do you really think that you are any better?
And if so, why?
Do you really think that you are any better?
And if so, why?
Let's not forget the self-hating Western cynics, who readily click to recommend/like anything coming out of Saint Petersburg. The behavior of Putin and Russian journalists is no excuse for Western standards, but objective comparison of the two should give enough insight for an impartial observer.
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At least in the eyes of the world, the Russians have a curious way of handling this matter. It is like they lit an enormous neon sign saying, "We did it! We did it!" The shifting stories, the refusal to allow Western viewpoints in their media, the brusque attempt to preempt the Dutch account, the intensity of bellicose and apparently baseless charges against the Dutch investigators -- all these things point to just one possible scenario, that they did in fact do it, and that they are now trying desperately to cover up the truth.
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Don't forget how they were the only ones that vetoed the MH17 tribunal in UN security council. That's pretty much a confession.
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The Putin propaganda machine goes far beyond the domestic TV audience. Internet trolls in the Internet Research Agency and elsewhere are working overtime to create fake stories about the MH17 crash, Syrian conflict, Ukrainian politics and other issues.
One video purports to show the MH17 wreckage and 30 mm cannon bullets allegedly fired by the Ukraine Air Force. But the film inadvertantly shows a yellow/blue Ukraine badge on the wreckage, exposing the fakery.
The impact is a worldwide distortion of reality, which although quickly debunked, continues to live on.
We have our own distorted and edited video efforts, most recently involving Planned Parenthood. But nothing reaches the bald faced audacity of Putin's media.
One video purports to show the MH17 wreckage and 30 mm cannon bullets allegedly fired by the Ukraine Air Force. But the film inadvertantly shows a yellow/blue Ukraine badge on the wreckage, exposing the fakery.
The impact is a worldwide distortion of reality, which although quickly debunked, continues to live on.
We have our own distorted and edited video efforts, most recently involving Planned Parenthood. But nothing reaches the bald faced audacity of Putin's media.
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2. Also NYT has said Voice of America doesn't work, and how about Hollywood influence? All movies propagandize american culture and way of life. I think American influence in Moscow is very strong. Maybe people get their news from the boob tube, but they understand that it's political propaganda.