On question 1, I agree with the ethical approach of Prof. Appiah, although I would communicate the situation to the neighbor differently. Reminding the neighbor of the value of human kindness is an attempt to create an alternate duty to balance the one she already feels. However, the neighbor will feel more sympathetic to the LW's situation if she meets the wife and the caretaker together. She can see for herself the value of the caretaker to the wife, and confirm for herself that the caretaker is not being abused as an employee. That way, refraining from calling ICE will not be abandoning her principles, but helping neighbors in need.
5
Re the job applicant, going to the employer to further rumor about an applicant I hope does not reflect well on the letter writer. Let the facts speak for themselves and let the applicant win or lose the job based on her interviews and behavior. To be sabotaged by someone who is a mere acquaintance and is just regurgitating non-facts gleaned from Facebook or gossip is disgusting and pretty disgraceful. What kind of society have we become?
3
You all do understand, don't you, that people can need services they can*t afford to pay for? One does the best one can. We do not yet have an enlightened social services system in this country.
So we have a black market system. The illegal worker who cared for my great-uncle in his supported-housing residence treated him as though he was a beloved family member. She told my mother her rate and my mother paid it from my great-uncle*s funds. We, his nearest family, could not have afforded to contribute towards his care.
As another commenter has already noted, there is law, and there is ethics, and there is justice, and these words are not synonyms for one another. I am a generally law-abiding person, but yes--I do decide which laws I will fully obey, and which I am willing to circumvent. I think all of us in the real world do that.
So we have a black market system. The illegal worker who cared for my great-uncle in his supported-housing residence treated him as though he was a beloved family member. She told my mother her rate and my mother paid it from my great-uncle*s funds. We, his nearest family, could not have afforded to contribute towards his care.
As another commenter has already noted, there is law, and there is ethics, and there is justice, and these words are not synonyms for one another. I am a generally law-abiding person, but yes--I do decide which laws I will fully obey, and which I am willing to circumvent. I think all of us in the real world do that.
10
I'm a physician who has had occasion to work with patients who are undocumented or who have undocumented family members. I notice most comments are very sympathetic to the husband and the suffering wife. It may certainly be that both husband and wife are lovely people who treat this undocumented care-provider like the life-saving saint she is. I genuinely hope the employers put their money where their mouth is, but given the stories I've heard, I wonder if the neighbor doesn't know something we don't. Maybe the undocumented laborer shared the story of her circumstance when the neighbor reached out with compassion and concern for the laborer. Maybe the laborer is working relentless hours for a pittance. Maybe the neighbor knows the husband or wife is abusive. Save the vitriol directed at undocumented laborers so for their exploiters/employers. The reason these people are working brutal jobs for slave wages is because employers are rapacious and greedy beyond belief and these poor people are fleeing lives of grinding poverty. Ask yourself, how much would you have to be paid to change diapers on an incontinent, angry adult? What would it cost for you to work 12 hours in a frigid slaughterhouse, up to your ankles in blood and filth? How about re-roofing my house all day in the blistering sun only to have the contractor refuse to pay you? We can ship these suffering people back to their impoverished countries...sadly, we're stuck with our thieving, greed-head neighbors.
14
If any of these speculations are, in fact, the case, then the prying neighbor has an ethical duty even greater than her urge to inform on letter writer and the undocumented worker, namely, to alert the householder to those facts you postulate and to alert the worker to those same facts. Any other approach suggests using ethical duty as disguise for something else. But we know none of these postulated facts from the question asked or the facts given in the letter which ask about the neighbor's ethical duty to report (inform) on the neighbor and the worker. As the answer states, there is no legal duty to make such a report, so if the person is acting with reason, then the duty would have to be an ethical one. I also, on the facts given, would not acknowledge the neighbor's ethical duty.
My suspicion, which I state up front is conditional and freely admit is simply that--a suspicion--is that the neighbor may possess some insecurity that reveals itself every time someone else acts generously toward another person of lesser means. In this case, overlooking immigration status, might be interpreted as an act of generosity, all other things being equal. It is similar, in my view, to the observer who criticizes the generosity of a friend or other person who forks over money to a panhandler who says he'd like to buy some food. I've never understood this myself, but I know it exists since I have been the subject of such criticism.
The neighbor may just like being an informant.
My suspicion, which I state up front is conditional and freely admit is simply that--a suspicion--is that the neighbor may possess some insecurity that reveals itself every time someone else acts generously toward another person of lesser means. In this case, overlooking immigration status, might be interpreted as an act of generosity, all other things being equal. It is similar, in my view, to the observer who criticizes the generosity of a friend or other person who forks over money to a panhandler who says he'd like to buy some food. I've never understood this myself, but I know it exists since I have been the subject of such criticism.
The neighbor may just like being an informant.
10
Thank you for this.
Wow, Germany 1938!
5
We've become a cold, cold people.
5
Yes it should be reported. She is breaking the law. A law I support. Just because you or someone thinks a law is stupid does not make it so.
As for receiving a competitive wage, I seriously doubt this. She has no benefits, pays no social security and is actually more than likely in somewhat of a psuedo hostage situation. This family can treat this woman as poorly as they wish and she has no repercussion. Her work and the level of treatment is likely motivated by fear of losing this job, rather than how great this family is. I would be more likely to believe this poster if her salary is equal to the salary of the agency workers he's tried. I'll bet you it's not.
As for thinking the law is stupid, well the majority of us don't think that. Come to work here legally or stay home.
As for receiving a competitive wage, I seriously doubt this. She has no benefits, pays no social security and is actually more than likely in somewhat of a psuedo hostage situation. This family can treat this woman as poorly as they wish and she has no repercussion. Her work and the level of treatment is likely motivated by fear of losing this job, rather than how great this family is. I would be more likely to believe this poster if her salary is equal to the salary of the agency workers he's tried. I'll bet you it's not.
As for thinking the law is stupid, well the majority of us don't think that. Come to work here legally or stay home.
9
I smoked a puff of marijuana in New York State this weekend. Pretty sure I also crossed my quiet residential street against the light when there wasn't any traffic. Call the police.
6
Until our government ensures the appropriate care of incapacitated people in their own homes, with dignity and safety, I*d say everyone is on his own to ensure it for his or her family by whatever means necessary.
This isn't a matter of paying a little more for a well-trimmed lawn or for a take-out meal. It is finding the person who will perform intimate, sometimes distasteful or even disgusting tasks for an especially-vulnerable person. Both parties to these arrangements are benefiting in ways that cannot be monetized.
How many families do you know who have the resources to pay top-dollar wages and benefits for home care that might be required for decades? How many contingencies can all of us save for?
If this is an absolutely true story, then that neighbor is a truly wretched person.
This isn't a matter of paying a little more for a well-trimmed lawn or for a take-out meal. It is finding the person who will perform intimate, sometimes distasteful or even disgusting tasks for an especially-vulnerable person. Both parties to these arrangements are benefiting in ways that cannot be monetized.
How many families do you know who have the resources to pay top-dollar wages and benefits for home care that might be required for decades? How many contingencies can all of us save for?
If this is an absolutely true story, then that neighbor is a truly wretched person.
14
Whatever happened to MYOB?
17
Why is the concern with the ethics of the neighbor? They feel the laws should be followed and they are criticized? Why is your wife so difficult to please? Perhaps it is easier to abuse a worker who is here illegally. We are inundated with illegals, there are legal healthcare people who can do the job and need the job. Personally, I make it clear to any businesses or workers who come onto my property that they have to be legal. I fired one kitchen remodel company. It is always situation ethics these days, there is always a reason to excuse unethical or illegal practices.
9
Seems that the Ethicist is partial to wives and to laws written by unethical politicians who use immigrants as a convenient target to whip up enthusiasm during campaign season, but has no observable interest in the person who is apt to be most affected if the neighbor calls ICE: The immigrant health care aide. Some classes of people remain invisible even to the Ethicist, it seems. NAME WITHHELD can hire another health care aide, and the Ethicist can write another column, but the aide, once deported, cannot simply look for another job. This is an appalling lack of perception on the part of the Ethicist, who, of all people, ought to have a more penetrating perception.
5
Problem isn't just that migrants are willing to work for low pay, they are willing to work HARD for low pay because they consider even a minimum wage job to be a good job. They are reliable, pleasant, honest, and responsive. They show up on time. Unfortunately many, if not most, workers who have the right (really a privilege) to work do not value their jobs. People aren't just being cheap when they hire immigrants for hard, sometimes unpleasant home help. It would also help if wages and employment taxes for domestic help were tax deductible; then there would be more of an incentive to do the right thing.
1
Why should wages for low-paid workers be tax deductible? These are the people most likely to need Medicaid and Social Security when they are older and their careers have ended. We expect big companies to contribute to these programs -- why not the rich and those in the upper middle class?
4
I appreciate the new focus on "ethics" rather than "advice". And as with any question of ethics, the columnist (the new Ethicist?) has explored the competing factors well without providing one solution.
As comments have shown, one's own weighing of following the letter of the law vs needs of the family is the question posed (emphasized by the Valjean vs Javert reference). Of course this does have broader policy implications since the US failure to establish an effective guest worker program within comprehensive immigration reform means those immigrants who arrive without documentation simply wanting to work for a better life for their families are forced to commit a crime (currently a misdemeanor) leaving them open to the vigilance of informers.
I like this new Ethicist format, especially when two seemingly unconnected questions (Informing the government or informing one's employer of either illegal or unsuitable for an employee behaviour) are discussed. The philosophical term "partiality" was helpfully illustrated in the column. Thank you!
As comments have shown, one's own weighing of following the letter of the law vs needs of the family is the question posed (emphasized by the Valjean vs Javert reference). Of course this does have broader policy implications since the US failure to establish an effective guest worker program within comprehensive immigration reform means those immigrants who arrive without documentation simply wanting to work for a better life for their families are forced to commit a crime (currently a misdemeanor) leaving them open to the vigilance of informers.
I like this new Ethicist format, especially when two seemingly unconnected questions (Informing the government or informing one's employer of either illegal or unsuitable for an employee behaviour) are discussed. The philosophical term "partiality" was helpfully illustrated in the column. Thank you!
3
Well, you certainly have bent over backwards to be fair... to the Feds. I would contend that if there was ever a connection between law and morality (or ethics), it was severed long ago. Have you seen, have you heard the people who make our laws, and especially on volatile and vote-getting matters like immigration? Ever wondered why we have so many people in jail, and what happens to them there? And are you suspicious of the neighbor? I sure am--just another busybody, maybe with just a touch of xenophobia thrown in, hoping to cause some trouble.
8
So it seems the majority here feel no obligation to uphold the law of the US if it infringes on their personal actions.
Interesting.
Now what obligation do you all think we owe you?
It's not about the letter of the Law so much as the Spirit of the Country: we are either law abiding or not.
If you put the welfare of a foreigner, no matter how seemingly righteous, above the common good of our Citizens, please do so without the illusion of righteousness.
Interesting.
Now what obligation do you all think we owe you?
It's not about the letter of the Law so much as the Spirit of the Country: we are either law abiding or not.
If you put the welfare of a foreigner, no matter how seemingly righteous, above the common good of our Citizens, please do so without the illusion of righteousness.
3
I find it very sad and rather un-American that so few people have no understanding of the difference between law and ethics. Also, of the difference between law and justice. Also, of the difference between theory and practice in our so-perfect legal system --you guys haven't been reading the Times' reports on gross abuses, both legal and illegal, in the NYC and NYS justice systems.
14
what I find is people have a legal responsibility to report any illegal immigrant whether they are employed or not. Yhey do take jobs from american citizens and they do so by working for far less then an american citizen would and that is just plain wrong and if you dont believe me call koch foods in morristown, tenn. and ask them how many illegals they have using the same ssn and what they are paying them you will find it is well under the minimum wage and have been busted for hiring them many times. and that is all the proof i need.
4
Ethics, schmethics. A citizen has zero legal obligation to enforce the law or report criminality. It's the job of government to enforce the laws passed by the peoples legislators at every level. If the authorities question a citizen about a suspected law breaker, the citizen needs to answer their questions truthfully (or risk obstruction of justice charges). But the citizen has no duty to volunteer information - just answer the questions asked. That said, one has the ultimate ethical and moral obligation -- to self and loved ones - to rat out any person (criminal, work-mate,neighbor, etc) whose attitude, behavior, activities, etc. is in some way threatening, jeopardizing or diminishing their "life, liberty or pursuit of happiness."
13
A citizen has GREAT obligation to report some crimes and enforce laws. See an assault or murder? You are by law required to report it and testify. Your account is aptly named.
5
Yes, the neighbor sounds like a Nosy Parker. That doesn't mean what the letter writer is doing is a good thing. We are supposed to adhere to the laws, even the ones we don't like. My guess is that if the letter writer offered more money, he and his wife could find a legal citizen or immigrant to provide the kind of care that their situation requires.
4
Wow, a real ethics column. Welcome back. column.
I disagree about the immigration situation. Many people consider this a serious breach of the law, and would feel honor bound to report it. It looks like the neighbor has given the writer time to clear this up, however, which is somewhat different from just reporting it. Also, I am wondering how the neighbor knew the worker was an illegal immigrant?
I disagree about the immigration situation. Many people consider this a serious breach of the law, and would feel honor bound to report it. It looks like the neighbor has given the writer time to clear this up, however, which is somewhat different from just reporting it. Also, I am wondering how the neighbor knew the worker was an illegal immigrant?
18
I suspect that many commenters here have not actually had to find a reputable home care worker for a family member. Legal, licensed and certified is not the same as compassionate, caring and reliable.
Would I hire an illegal alien as a gardener, data programmer or waitress? No. Would I hire an illegal alien to care for an elderly parent? If that person was the right person for my family situation, you betcha.
Would I hire an illegal alien as a gardener, data programmer or waitress? No. Would I hire an illegal alien to care for an elderly parent? If that person was the right person for my family situation, you betcha.
31
I would think the first thing to do would be to discuss all this with the aide. If the aide wants to hightail it out of the situation, I think she needs the information so she can do so. I also have no idea what is covered under "acceptable to my wife," having been surprised in other situations by what patients would and wouldn't find acceptable. And the idea that partiality to the spouse is such a consideration makes me wonder how the line is drawn between this and things like nepotism and favoring extended family in job placement and favoring fellow members of one's ethnicity ... and so on -- eventually we have preferences that look like bias, it seems to me. I would have said that the couple took a risk in hiring someone who can't legally take the job, they unfortunately have an officious neighbor, they have a difficult care situation. A way out of the conflict might be to ask the neighbor to back off while they look for a suitable replacement for the aide, assuming the aide is still willing to work with this neighbor in the mix. I say this on the assumption that changing the aide's visa status to one where she can work legally is not feasible, because if it is, getting that process going and telling the neighbor that I would hope would be sufficient to get the neighbor to back off.
8
One of the great things about an ethics column--a real one which this one has finally become--is that it isn't designed to necessarily resolve conflict or suggest solutions--though it might. That is the job of an advice column (which this had become). Rather, to study ethics isn't to mimic motivation, but to better understand the nature of our relationship to one another, the world and to all the things in it so that our future behavior might somehow be influenced by its reasoning. Applying what one reads in a well-written ethics column such as this--or one by the venerable Randy Cohen--to other matters, some related and some not, and not providing a "how-to," is its better benefit and great value.
11
Paying "the standard rate" isn't good enough. A documented worker would also be accruing Social Security. The employer here should be paying MORE to the worker.
11
Whether the neighbor has an obligation to report the foreign national is a legal question. The ethical concern is what course of action delivers the greater good. That greater good is certainly overlooking the immigration status of the home health aide as she is providing such a vital service to a very needy person, and she is earning a living wage and not on the public dole. The course of action now is to hire an immigration lawyer to obtain a hardship exception and have a visa granted the health aide
As an aside, one should never reveal a transgression to a martinet.
As an aside, one should never reveal a transgression to a martinet.
15
If the standard rate doesn't attract the kind of worker the husband and wife desire, they should offer a premium rate (as well as withholding and social security) to find someone whose skill set suits their needs better. Hiring an illegal worker who has no other options sounds almost coercive.
4
When I accompanied my late husband, many years ago, to federal court for him to be sworn in as a citizen, the person swearing them in, a federal judge, was someone I had worked with and knew fairly well. My intention was to go up afterwards and introduce him to my husband and say hello. But in his speech to the new citizens, he told them that they now had an obligation to turn in any friends, neighbors, or family that were here illegally. This man was always something of a jerk and got his appointment to the bench mainly because of "family"connections. His speech was ridiculous and so was he and that was the end of the "hello." None of us have a moral obligation to turn in family, friends and neighbors or anyone else for that matter. I suggest the neighbor described here and the judge would have fit right in with the Stasi in East Germany.
35
Grace, life would be so much simpler if all ethical issues were black and white. So, according to you logic you would not call the DEA if you discovered that your next door neighbor had a laboratory in her basement and was producing illegal drugs which were then sold by dealers at the local high school?
2
In each and every country that I had tried to work in, outside of the US, I was reported to authorities rather quickly and then dismissed immediately. (UK, NZ, AUS, SWITZ & CAN). I was travelling alone abroad and was younger, (20's).
I've always found it interesting that in the US we don't really seem to care and many people from all over the world come here to work illegally. But seriously forbid US from working in their countries. I don't think this double standard is fair at all.
Try working illegally abroad and find out how well that works out for you.
And I'm sorry, but why should we allow some certain jobs to be illegally allowed and not others? Bottom line is it hurts lower income Americans. The only people I know that are all into unfettered immigration don't have to worry about their or their family member's jobs or schools and are well off. Usually they don't live near or congregate with the illegals as well. These people hire illegals for ALL of their household help. Maids, nannies, cooks, gardeners, day laborers, etc. Shameless.
I've always found it interesting that in the US we don't really seem to care and many people from all over the world come here to work illegally. But seriously forbid US from working in their countries. I don't think this double standard is fair at all.
Try working illegally abroad and find out how well that works out for you.
And I'm sorry, but why should we allow some certain jobs to be illegally allowed and not others? Bottom line is it hurts lower income Americans. The only people I know that are all into unfettered immigration don't have to worry about their or their family member's jobs or schools and are well off. Usually they don't live near or congregate with the illegals as well. These people hire illegals for ALL of their household help. Maids, nannies, cooks, gardeners, day laborers, etc. Shameless.
22
Thank you!
5
Sadly, our economy is based in large part on illegal immigrants who supplement and supplant the American workforce. One need look no further than the street corners where so many men gather, waiting to be chosen for a day's - or week's - work, at a fraction of the pay that a legal worker would be paid, and with no benefits.
5
I hope that you might gain in sympathy for the plight of less fortunate others if you actually got to know them. Perhaps you could start attending a church with a large percentage of undocumented aliens as members, or maybe volunteer to teach English classes to recent arrivals? Remember that we are a nation of immigrants, and our welcoming attitude to past generations of new arrivals has made us stronger as a country.
2
I think you are very wrong on this issue. Not only does the neighbor have a right to report the illegal employee, she has a duty. This illegal employee is taking a job away from a person with a right to work here and who will pay taxes. I cannot believe that this gentleman cannot find a legal individual to help his wife. The arrangement of hiring an illegal affects everyone who is a citizen and who pays taxes. Laws exist to protect society from those who want to make their own rules. You are wrong on this.
9
I am making an assumption here but "you cannot believe" indicates to me that you have not tried it. I can FULLY embrace the idea that the man can not find anyone decent, reliable, caring, consistent and trustworthy to care for his wife in this capacity at the standard rate. I can say this, as I DID have to try to do so.
2
The family should spring for a lawyer to see if they can bring the home health aide into legal compliance.
We had a nanny, some years ago, who was legal when we hired her but fell out of compliance. It turned out not to be her fault. We helped her find a lawyer, continued to employ her when ICE said that she couldn't work for anyone else until the situation was resolved, and ultimately she won and now has her well-deserved green card.
We had a nanny, some years ago, who was legal when we hired her but fell out of compliance. It turned out not to be her fault. We helped her find a lawyer, continued to employ her when ICE said that she couldn't work for anyone else until the situation was resolved, and ultimately she won and now has her well-deserved green card.
12
There is a federal crime called misprision of felony, 18 USC 4
Whoever, having knowledge of the actual commission of a felony cognizable by a court of the United States, conceals and does not as soon as possible make known the same to some judge or other person in civil or military authority under the United States, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both. Wikipedia says "The Federal misprision of felony statute is usually only used in prosecutions against defendants who have a special duty to report a crime, such as a government official". However I don't think that is accurate.
I don't have a criminal record and have never been charged with a federal crime. I was a federal prisoner by order of Judge Edward "Naughty" Nottingham and was denied an arraignment, a bail hearing, and the first 4 months a lawyer.
While a federal prisoner I met two women who were charged with misprision of felony only, for not reporting a family member who was dealing.
Whoever, having knowledge of the actual commission of a felony cognizable by a court of the United States, conceals and does not as soon as possible make known the same to some judge or other person in civil or military authority under the United States, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both. Wikipedia says "The Federal misprision of felony statute is usually only used in prosecutions against defendants who have a special duty to report a crime, such as a government official". However I don't think that is accurate.
I don't have a criminal record and have never been charged with a federal crime. I was a federal prisoner by order of Judge Edward "Naughty" Nottingham and was denied an arraignment, a bail hearing, and the first 4 months a lawyer.
While a federal prisoner I met two women who were charged with misprision of felony only, for not reporting a family member who was dealing.
4
Being in this country illegally is not a felony, it is a misdemeanor.
9
But working without a work permit IS and the penalty is immediate return to country of origin.
1
There is nothing to indicate that she is in the country illegally. The writer states that her visa--i.e., if one has a current visa, one is in the country legally--does not permit her to WORK in this country.
3
One ethicist once more, with excellently thought out responses. Huzzah, huzzah!
9
Good home health aides are hard to find. I suggest that if the writer really wants to keep this person, then he consult an immigration attorney to see if there is a way he can sponsor her to get a visa that allows her to work and possibly a green card.
Then he can also honestly tell the neighbor that he is in the process of obtaining the proper work permits.
BTW, when the writer say the aide is paid at the standard rate, does that include social security and other benefits??
Then he can also honestly tell the neighbor that he is in the process of obtaining the proper work permits.
BTW, when the writer say the aide is paid at the standard rate, does that include social security and other benefits??
9
I don't think he "honestly" should have to tell his noisy neighbor anything. He should consult an immigration attorney for his wife's benefit.
2
I faced a similar situation as the neighbor who found out a coworker's live-in housekeeper/nanny was illegal. My coworker's husband is a naturalized US citizen and the housekeeper/nanny was from his home country. She helped with the couple's four children while both parents worked. An additional benefit, from the couple's perspective, was that she was helping the children become bilingual, an important skill in the parents' goals for the children.
I found out that the housekeeper/nanny was illegal after my coworker had extolled how fortunate they were to have her and I asked offhandedly, "Is she legal?". The answer was "No."
I chose not to pursue the matter because I didn't want to damage my good working relationship with my coworker and I didn't want to cause a major problem for her at home if the housekeeper/nanny were suddenly removed and deported. Was I being a "coward" for not reporting the situation to the proper authorities? Reader replies are welcome....
I found out that the housekeeper/nanny was illegal after my coworker had extolled how fortunate they were to have her and I asked offhandedly, "Is she legal?". The answer was "No."
I chose not to pursue the matter because I didn't want to damage my good working relationship with my coworker and I didn't want to cause a major problem for her at home if the housekeeper/nanny were suddenly removed and deported. Was I being a "coward" for not reporting the situation to the proper authorities? Reader replies are welcome....
9
I'm kind of amazed that you asked if she was "legal." Weren't you kind of putting your coworker on the spot and you knew it?
Of course you have no obligation to report this coworker's personal home situation and that nanny situation isn't what the public is up in arms about. That nanny lives with the family, has no children of her own in the schools at taxpayer expense, isn't loitering in front of convenience stores for day labor jobs, isn't competing with Americans for jobs or housing, driving down wages or driving up the cost of housing. The only possibility for a negative would be if she has an accident or becomes ill and the family does not pay for her care, leaving the taxpayers to foot the bill.
Of course you have no obligation to report this coworker's personal home situation and that nanny situation isn't what the public is up in arms about. That nanny lives with the family, has no children of her own in the schools at taxpayer expense, isn't loitering in front of convenience stores for day labor jobs, isn't competing with Americans for jobs or housing, driving down wages or driving up the cost of housing. The only possibility for a negative would be if she has an accident or becomes ill and the family does not pay for her care, leaving the taxpayers to foot the bill.
16
That's a fair observation, Ms. Ginger. At that time, there had been a series of news articles in the local media about people from the husband's home country who had overstayed their student or visitor visas and were working at various jobs in the area. I really didn't expect a "Yes" answer to my question and chose not to pursue the ramifications of the answer. My coworker trusted me enough to be honest and I wasn't going to betray that trust.
3
If the nanny is illegal then they are not paying social security or workmen's comp.
If they're establishing a pattern of paying under the table, then they won't hire an employee who wants to fully report everything, pay all taxes, play by the books.
If they're establishing a pattern of paying under the table, then they won't hire an employee who wants to fully report everything, pay all taxes, play by the books.
2
Can I just say what a breath of fresh air it is to have a single, well-reasoned, opinionated voice weighing in once again? Professor Appiah always struck me as one of the more thoughtful commentators in previous columns. So happy to have him in this capacity!
40
You probably don't have to compete for your job at work with people working illegally. Neither, I suspect, does the Ethicist. Its not that hard to find legal home health aides. I hired three when my mother was sick, look on Craig's list and check references.
15
Brian, the thing is this man had someone who was really good for his paralyzed, incontinent wife and he could feel confidence in this Ukrainian lady. This sounds like a very tragic situation and its shocking that the neighbor's heart doesn't go out to them. The neighbor is what used to be called a "public scold" or a "common scold."
Different story entirely with constuction crews that hire illegal workers but the neighbor would probably be afraid to cross them.
Different story entirely with constuction crews that hire illegal workers but the neighbor would probably be afraid to cross them.
18
Since the ethicist (and his commenters) are asked to weigh in on the story as told, we have to assume that his difficulties in finding an adequate aid are real as described. Are you assuming the he is lying and being lazy?
4
The legal home health aides we hired for my grandparents (through an agency) 1) slept on the job, and 2) stole more than $30,000 of jewelry, silver, etc. Yes, we should have done a better job of locking up valuables, but then again they shouldn't have been thieves. It is not that hard to find legal health aides, but it is hard to find good health aides.
11
Suddenly, while reading The Ethicist, I realized that I was enjoying the column for the first time in a long time....then it dawned on me....there's a real Ethicist at the helm. Thank you NY Times.
59
Yes, because the others are absent, thank goodness.
5
For everyone pointed out how supposedly difficult it is to get health aides who are not illegal, I understand but that makes those valuable once well paying jobs done by legal workers now a race to the bottom with depressed wages, tax avoidance and no worker protection.
The federal government is ultimately at fault for their negligence in not enforcing immigration laws but everyone who hires illegally is part of the problem and has directly contributed to the degradation of the American working class. How is that ethical?
If you really care about workers in this country; raising the minimum wage, providing benefits, having businesses and corporations that value their workers and having workers organize for better contracts, then stop knowingly hiring illegal workers because your actions undermine all legal workers. Today its health aides, and construction workers. Who's jobs will be devalued by illegal workers next?
The federal government is ultimately at fault for their negligence in not enforcing immigration laws but everyone who hires illegally is part of the problem and has directly contributed to the degradation of the American working class. How is that ethical?
If you really care about workers in this country; raising the minimum wage, providing benefits, having businesses and corporations that value their workers and having workers organize for better contracts, then stop knowingly hiring illegal workers because your actions undermine all legal workers. Today its health aides, and construction workers. Who's jobs will be devalued by illegal workers next?
11
I care about the paralyzed wife who is quite limited in getting good care.
BTW - As conservative as some of those in our Red States are, we welcome new workers. We need them. Iowa, for example, has been actively courting immigrants for more than a decade.
BTW - As conservative as some of those in our Red States are, we welcome new workers. We need them. Iowa, for example, has been actively courting immigrants for more than a decade.
10
I'm curious, when were home health aides well paid? I worked as an aide for a number of years in the 1980s and 1990s in three different areas of the US. Some of the agencies were paid well for our services, but I never knew an aide who was paid well. At least not one working on the books. We had no benefits, health care, retirement, or union at that time. And yes, some agencies' work forces were filled out by immigrants. It was one profession where you could always find work because of the physical demands, the difficult and unpredictable work schedules, and the low pay. I think this profession has been devalued by our low regard for those who care for the young and the elderly, not by illegal workers.
41
going rate in NYC suburbs is 20-25 dollars per hour. range based on experience. no benefits. with benefits, the cash comp might go down. medicare won't pay, but you can take a deduction on income taxes
How did the neighbor find out that the home health aide is working illegally? There is something strange about this story. I doubt the neighbor confronted the aide. I doubt the foreign woman would have told a stranger she is working without proper papers. The neighbor wouldn't know her name. The INS does not have a searchable data base. It seems to me the employer volunteered this information, the neighbor didn't just find out. The moral of the story is: if you hire someone without work papers and is wonderful with your disabled wife, don't tell the neighbor about your situation and then have to complain to the ethicist.
I think it is in fact ethical for the neighbor to report this woman because she is breaking the law. The LW is also in violation by hiring an illegal worker.
I think it is in fact ethical for the neighbor to report this woman because she is breaking the law. The LW is also in violation by hiring an illegal worker.
11
I truly hope I never become one of those neighbors who sits at the window all the time, watching whatever my neighbors are doing. What a dreary existence. The neighbor in question probably also counts the number of items in someone's shopping cart, ensuring justice and safety for those shoppers in the 10 Items or Less line.
42
I share your hope, but if you live next to a neighbor who is renting bedspace to droves of illegals, or their cars are parked on the lawn or clog the street, or--from any background--they stage a lot of big parties with public drunkenness and urination, public sex, illegal garbage dumping, don't fail to take action. Those actions are seriously denting your quality of life and are subject to public laws. Who are you pleasing by doing nothing.
6
If it's against the zoning by definition it's a nuisance and neighbors are supposed to be able to get a court order against the nuisance.
2
Those are quite the stereotypes. Many undocumented immigrants live near my North Austin neighborhood, and I've never seen or heard of any of the misbehaviors you describe. Most undocumented immigrants work hard to provide for their families and live quiet lives, avoiding drawing attention from the immigration authorities.
4
We have laws for a reason. She should report you breaking the law.
19
She should be ostracized for her cruelty.
20
galactus: what is the reason for having laws?
real attempt at a socratic dialogue....
real attempt at a socratic dialogue....
7
Remember to turn yourself in the next time you dont use a turn signal, dont wear a seat belt, or blow through a stop sign ok? Rediculous. It's so easy to pretent you're perfect as you judge people from behind your keyboard.
19
It is hard to believe that any neighbor would be so mean and the writer didn't know that and do everything possible to protect his wife and the Ukrainian lady from having anything to do with that neighbor.
If it was me, I'd move and move the Ukrainian lady, too. Tell the neighbor any lie that works.
If it was me, I'd move and move the Ukrainian lady, too. Tell the neighbor any lie that works.
17
You obviously lack any training in ethics. I'm sure you'd be a great person to do business with.
5
What kind of ethics would deprive the paralyzed, incontinent lady of compassionate, reliable care? "Sometimes the law is an ass."
17
It sounds easy, but you aren't caring for a severely disabled person, and probably don't realize how very difficult it is to move - looking for a new suitable residence, deposits, selling/buying/renting, packing, actually moving, making physical changes to the new place (installing wheelchair ramps, stair lifts, power circuits for special equipment, etc.), plus the emotional adjustments for both spouses in relocating. The man is already stressed enough without these complications. I find your recommendation rather flip.
7
i think it is doubtful that ICE (immigration & customs enforcement) would even come to the house to arrest/deport this lone visa overstayer. ICE has much larger fish to fry than this. Moreover, how could ICE even launch an investigation based on one disgruntled neighbor's call? I'll bet that the neighbor will spend a day or so trying to report the info to the right agency, but in the end will give up because no one will take action on her request.
17
The Republicans have so gutted so many Federal agencies that they are unable to fulfill their mandate.
6
Wrong, they would be there within a few days to ask the aide for her work visa and finding none, arrest and detain her and then deport her. If someone hired a good lawyer for her, she could postpone the deportation for a long time but she'd still be in jail waiting and lose anyway so she'd probably leave as "requested"
I suspect there is a racist element to the man's difficulty finding a worker, since he is finally happy with a white Ukranian. Which supports my belief that those who support illegal immigration are the real racists, not Donald Trump, who knows that African Americans are suffering the most from the employer's preference for lighter skinned, "hardworking" immigrants, legal and illegal.
10
He's a racist because there's not a person of color taking care of his wife? That's a stretch!
29
There may be an element in truth regarding racisim in what you are saying but it is hard to know. Clearly this man is breaking the law and he knows it. He should be willing to face the consequences if caught. But his neighbor is not obliged to turn him in. As they say what goes around comes around and if I were the neighbor I would stay out of it.
5
robert 1344: what is the race of the man? how do you know it?
3
That's one nasty snitching neighbor! How can a neighbor even tell what someone's visa allows and prohibits? No law prevents foreigners from paying American landlords or from volunteering some services... Technically, the Ukrainian woman may be paying rent in services - by taking care of your wife... So I wonder how anyone can have enough confidence to report a situation like this without having looked over someone's immigration records!
9
The Immigration Law has nothing at all to do with the discriminatory laws dealing with segregation based on race. The Immigration Law has everything to do with protecting the American People, and as the law of the land, and with good standing, it should be obeyed. In fact, nothing else will do.
If you don't like the law.. get busy and change it. The Senate Immigration Bill was loaded with Pork and that won't fly anywhere. It may crawl out of the commode.. it won't have honor at all so don't use that to change anything.
Protect the American Taxpayer. Congress pretends we are eager to have them spend money in support of the illegal aliens, but trust me on this one: we are not.
Sincerely.. thank you for obeying the law.
If you don't like the law.. get busy and change it. The Senate Immigration Bill was loaded with Pork and that won't fly anywhere. It may crawl out of the commode.. it won't have honor at all so don't use that to change anything.
Protect the American Taxpayer. Congress pretends we are eager to have them spend money in support of the illegal aliens, but trust me on this one: we are not.
Sincerely.. thank you for obeying the law.
9
If you are concerned about 'Protecting the American Taxpayer', this is a drippy faucet, where human beings are actually trying to lead safer lives, whereas you should be focusing on the tsunami of our military complex that actually ruins more lives all over the planet, in the guise of help.
Please research the balance of where your tax dollars are spent.
Please research the balance of where your tax dollars are spent.
Undocumented immigrants give more to the federal budget than they take in services, because those who have fake social security numbers are paying takes they they will never receive back as future Medicare and Social Security payments.
Is it possible for Name Withheld to sponsor the health aide for a work visa?
16
The neighbor of the paralyzed woman reminds me of a neighbor I had who reported another neighbor who was not causing anyone any trouble, because the woman had sublet the apartment from the original tenant. Some people just enjoy causing others as much trouble as possible.
16
What if the subletting tenant was a household of seven, producing a lot of noise, breaking the plumbing, etc. If we don't move for compliance with public safety and laws and regulations, we will descend even faster into the abyss.
2
A rent controlled apartment?
1
If you sign a lease and agree to its terms, why shouldn't the fact that you break the lease with a sublease become known and a reason for action? It may be convenient to lie but that doesn't make it ethical.
2
Laws exist to establish and preserve order. If people can choose what laws they want to obey then that ideal is just that, an ideal. There are people who sell dangerous drugs. There are people who think it is OK to kill someone who has reneged on a deal. Or ignore financial responsibility by not carrying automobile insurance. Builders who flout building codes designed to provide a safe product, etc.
When every person decides to obey whatever laws don't inconvenience them and ignore the rest we have no society. What we have is anarchy.
When every person decides to obey whatever laws don't inconvenience them and ignore the rest we have no society. What we have is anarchy.
10
Unfortunately, not following laws is pervasive in today's society. People take out contracts (legal document) for mortgages, can't pay and walk away. Banks have laws to follow for foreclosure procedures, totally ignore them and no one gets punished; banks are supposed to do due diligence before writing mortgages, instead approved everybody with a pulse which caused the economy to implode. These were the most egregious and widely harmful examples in recent years. What we have is a morally bankrupt, narcissistic society, starting with the American Congress.
It is astonishing how many blithely assert that there are legal alternatives when that varies by region. In NYC it is very very hard to find anyone legal or not to do this kind of job. In Illinois where I have another residence it is no problem. Given these disparities many of the opinions expressed are at best silly.
13
The law is silly? It isn't silly when YOU are the target of the person breaking the law. But the law of the land on this issue is still the very old saying: 'pay the wages and you always get your worker.'
5
Pay more.
1
This column much better now that written by only one Ethicist again! Was awful with three, too hard to follow, not good. Thanks!
18
I agree, especially when the other two are usually clueless and talking more like lawyers and still have problems with the facts.
I thought the first answer came to the wrong conclusion. It confused legal responsibility with ethical responsibility. They share attributes but are not the same.
The second answer totally puzzled me. Sticking your nose in someone else's business without being asked because of some vague information based in part on "rumor" does not seem ethical. It does seem immature, it seems unnecessarily hurtful, and it seems likely to rebound unhappily on the writer.
The second answer totally puzzled me. Sticking your nose in someone else's business without being asked because of some vague information based in part on "rumor" does not seem ethical. It does seem immature, it seems unnecessarily hurtful, and it seems likely to rebound unhappily on the writer.
8
I disagree. I think that in the first situation, Mr. Appiah did reach his conclusion based on ethics and morality, and not on strict interpretation of the law.
Let's do it as with Snowden. He told the world how bad the USA government was violating the law, and they tried to put him in jail, with nothing happening to the US government. Let the neighbor blow the whistle and then leave the Ucrainian alone and put the neighbor in jail. Isn't it the American way?
3
Try checking out a U Visa. This woman is clearly blackmailing both you and your worker. She is holding the immigration status over the worker's head and threatening to report her to ICE if her demands are not met. I would advise you to speak to an immigration lawyer or a BIA Certified agency that specializes in U Visas in order to get a better understanding of possible immigration relief. Additional forms of relief could be something related to asylum, but this is unlikely to work depending on where she comes from in the Ukraine and if she has a reasonable fear of returning home (aside from economic reasons).
8
An enormous number of people want the immigration law obeyed. I seriously doubt anyone is being blackmailed, and the woman who did the reporting actually did what she was supposed to do.
7
"Clearly"? Nothing about this story is clear.
Preventing this aide from working may not be an obviously outrageous law,such as those associated with segregation. But for this family, it presents outrageous consequences. That, ethically, has to be taken into consideration. There is no violence,the neighbor has no truly valid reasons for concern and I believe him, when he says that he searched for other help.
The wife loses her aide, the husband is facing possible financial or criminal consequences. while attempting to find different assistance. Ethically, the neighbor is in the wrong.
The wife loses her aide, the husband is facing possible financial or criminal consequences. while attempting to find different assistance. Ethically, the neighbor is in the wrong.
20
For some reasons, I find the letter submissions to NYT and its magazine all rather silly. Who would need to post an elaborate letter on something that's so obvious to anyone as to being pointless in even bringing up the matter. C'mon, this guy has to ask someone's opinion if his neighbor is correct to inform on his immigration infraction by hiring someone who is illegal to work in this country? And why would anyone even need to ask if they should tell on someone (who is even hardly an acquaintance) of their spotted job history? For crying out loud, a good interviewer with a quick reference check is all it takes to weed out slacker candidates like that. All these letters, supposedly with some ethical twist, are just way beyond silly.
I'm going back to Dear Prudence.
I'm going back to Dear Prudence.
7
Carolyn Hax is great too....
2
I'm sure the neighbor would agree that anybody who saw them speeding or jaywalking would be ethically obliged to inform the police.
8
We simplified the law on the first offense to allow an inexpensive and rapid return for those who actually told Immigration the truth.
On the second Immigration offense for illegal alien entry, it IS a felony. I am advocating it be returned to a felony, and the employer be given a serious treatment.
Yes it is a serious crime and well beyond the business of street walking.
On the second Immigration offense for illegal alien entry, it IS a felony. I am advocating it be returned to a felony, and the employer be given a serious treatment.
Yes it is a serious crime and well beyond the business of street walking.
4
How about texting, which is killing more than 6,000 per year? Or is that too inconsequential to concern you enough to report it
You're right. All laws are optional. Each of us should decide individually which ones we prefer to obey.
And, of course, because stupid people text while driving and cause accidents that kill people, none of the rest of us should be forced to hire legally eligible workers. Our 90 million unemployed adults would agree with you absolutely.
And, of course, because stupid people text while driving and cause accidents that kill people, none of the rest of us should be forced to hire legally eligible workers. Our 90 million unemployed adults would agree with you absolutely.
1
Why does this paper never ever present anything bad happening when people violate our immigration laws?
9
Because violating these laws (often really difficult to follow even with best intentions) actually rarely leads to anything bad happening. Which tells me that these laws are poorly designed and impracticable.
4
Except that you take an spot and/or an opportunity from someone who IS following the rules. The correlation isn't as direct as mugging someone but it is stealing.
1
I think a lie (call it a white lie if you prefe) is in order for Withheld. Casually mention to nosy neighbor that you have wonderful news. "My wife's caregiver just got her green card. Isn't it wonderful how things just work out some times!?"
21
Tell the neighbor that because of her threat to report the helper you were forced to decline to run for public office.
So the "ethicist" says: if you don't agree with a law, go ahead and break it, because its a duh... stupid law anyway. If that applies to hiring illegal residents, does it apply to robbery or murder? Where does one ethically draw that line?
Has anyone noticed that the same people who are screaming about the illegal immigrants destroying America, and the people that hire them, to cut their own expense and taxes?
Has anyone noticed that the same people who are screaming about the illegal immigrants destroying America, and the people that hire them, to cut their own expense and taxes?
6
On the second request, about obligations to one's employer: the niggling concern I have is that I can't really assess how much the writer knows about the applicant first hand. The reputation might be generally correct but include exaggerations, and that's the danger. What is passed along to an employer ( a decent one, I guess) ought to consist of the minimum that the writer is certain about. This person sounds as if she has already taken care of ruining her own chance at a new job; but I know people who have been sabotaged by gossip and lots of folks who enjoy passing along only the worst stories.
5
This person is going to have to make a change in her aide, simply because it seems pretty certain that the neighbor, whether ethically or not, is going to report him. He may want to investigate a program called Consumer Directed Personal Assistance Program, which allows you to recruit, hire, train, supervise and, when necessary, terminate your own personal assistants. People in this program choose their own aides, their own schedules and determine how tasks will be performed. This might help in finding someone to take care of your wife that she can live with. www.cdpaanys.org
8
I think that the Ethicist is ignoring the fact that laws, rather than absolute precepts have a symbolic role. There are thousands of unenforced laws in the United States right now, that we are all breaking. Public officials get discretion into which laws to enforce. The executive branch, directed by Obama, mostly does not enforce immigration law outside of the border area. Why should any citizen feel obligated to complain about a crime when the enforcement is basically random? Threatening a neighbor with the excuse of a law that is broken and ignored on a regular basis does not seem ethical to me. By the way, up until a few years ago in some states homosexual sex was illegal, although it was rarely enforced. Where we then obligated to tell anytime we saw two men kissing because they are most likely breaking the law?
22
You state this point very well. The Ethicist is at its best when the Venn diagram of the law and ethics is recognized as overlapping but not identical.
1
Non-enforcement of the law began with Mr. Bush, and was extended and used extensively by President Obama. It doesn't reflect the will of the people, and the demand and desire to vote on this issue is high. One serious reason the American People are supporting Mr. Trump is exactly that issue, and the Ukrainian, who probably was summoned from the Ukraine, should detained and deported, and the employer should be punished.
Pay the wages.. you will get a citizen health care worker!
Pay the wages.. you will get a citizen health care worker!
As someone who works with the severely disabled, I have a lot of experience with agencies that supply home health aides. It is very, very hard to find a live-in person who is honest and dependable, let along someone who will take good care of a paralyzed, incontinent patient even for an 8-hour shift. Name Withheld was very lucky to find the Ukrainian lady and should do what he can to keep her. As for the neighbor, she would do better to offer whatever compassionate assistance she can--like bringing over an extra meal to help Name Withheld and his wife or, failing that, just to mind her own business.
104
Back when the Border Patrol and ICE still enforced immigration laws, they knew which factories and businesses to raid because undocumented workers were reported by laid-off U.S. workers or job applicants. Contractors undercut on bids by rival contractors who hired undocumented workers also called ICE.
15
The law which bans the Ukranian from working are *exactly* as unethical as those which made Rosa Parks go to the back of the bus. They deprive the person of the freedom to make a living solely because of who their parents are and where they were born. Violating the law around employing immigrants (assuming you employ them on fair terms) is just as moral as violating Jim Crow laws.
13
So a country maintaining a border and having an immigration policy and punishing those who break it is immoral and the moral equivalent of Jim Crow? I beg to differ.
8
Oh nonsense. We have employment and immigration laws. No one has an inherent right to break them. Those laws were hard fought and designed to protect our population from abuse. The notion that any American is entitled to import cheap labor if they are too cheap to pay locals a decent wage is deeply offensive.
9
I think the neighbor is a small minded busybody and should mind her own business. I would like to know more about her so I could dislike her even more than I do now.
BUT....I very much disagree with Peter on who deserves to live and work in the USA, and presumably everywhere else too.
Rosa Parks was born here and deserved to sit anywhere she wanted to sit. She was also a brave and determined woman.
If anyone could just move to anyplace she wanted the result would be utter chaos. With very few exceptions the USA has, or shouldn't have, any obligations to even allow foreigners to visit this country as tourists. Rose colored glasses and unrestrained magnanimity may be tempting but reality has a way of intruding and the best of all possible worlds implodes. Peter, your views, taken to the extreme you imply, would engender a strong counterforce. The world could become even worse than you see it.
BUT....I very much disagree with Peter on who deserves to live and work in the USA, and presumably everywhere else too.
Rosa Parks was born here and deserved to sit anywhere she wanted to sit. She was also a brave and determined woman.
If anyone could just move to anyplace she wanted the result would be utter chaos. With very few exceptions the USA has, or shouldn't have, any obligations to even allow foreigners to visit this country as tourists. Rose colored glasses and unrestrained magnanimity may be tempting but reality has a way of intruding and the best of all possible worlds implodes. Peter, your views, taken to the extreme you imply, would engender a strong counterforce. The world could become even worse than you see it.
4
So happy with the return of a solo ethicist! Thanks NYT for finally listening.
48
Yes - it works much better for a single person to think it all through. Let the responders develop alternative views.
1
This is a bit of a moot point. Report the illegal worker and watch as nothing happens.
12
"This is a bit of a moot point. Report the illegal worker and watch as nothing happens."
That's not the point. The point is that the law exists. whether it is well enforced or not is not an issue.
That's not the point. The point is that the law exists. whether it is well enforced or not is not an issue.
1
Here is the problem as I see it. Many people are making the same choices about hiring illegal aliens (or undocumented workers, take your pick) and they all have 'compelling' reasons. Expense, availability, they are 'hard workers' etc.
But in the end, they are here illegally. They are working jobs that there Americans are willing to work, and do a good job at, if they are adequately compensated. The problem is for many of the service jobs, they are not. And one reason is the competition from those who are working here illegally. The illegal immigration problem would quickly be solved if employers bore the brunt of the penalties, including hefty fines, jail time, and felony records. The neighbor should snitch. It is the ethical thing to do to protect American jobs and reduce illegal immigration.
But in the end, they are here illegally. They are working jobs that there Americans are willing to work, and do a good job at, if they are adequately compensated. The problem is for many of the service jobs, they are not. And one reason is the competition from those who are working here illegally. The illegal immigration problem would quickly be solved if employers bore the brunt of the penalties, including hefty fines, jail time, and felony records. The neighbor should snitch. It is the ethical thing to do to protect American jobs and reduce illegal immigration.
31
Man, am I glad that I don't live next to you.
3
Are there really any Americans available and "good at" doing the difficult job taking care of this man's wife?
2
The Ethicist column is finally readable again! That old format was duper lame.
35
Sounds like this man's neighbor would have worked well with the Stasi or Gestapo back in the day.
68
If an illegal resident took your job because he would work for half what you get, would you sing a different tune? Besides, the Gestapo sent people to their death, what kind of over-the-top comparison is that?
Just sayin....
Just sayin....
5
Since when is reporting illegal acts a moral issue? If this neighbor was changing oil on cars and dumping it down the storm drain would you ignore it? Or abusing his children? You are just making up your own laws.
3
Obeying the law is not something you like to do I gather.
This country is a country of laws and democracy. We were built on those laws and they will and should be enforced.
That, or we ALL get to choose the law we refuse to obey.
This country is a country of laws and democracy. We were built on those laws and they will and should be enforced.
That, or we ALL get to choose the law we refuse to obey.
3
No one has addressed the potential for abuse of an illegal, who must always be worried that her employer can terminate the job at will if she fails to perform on a 24 hour a day basis. The care of a paralyzed incontinent patient is extremely difficult under the best of circumstances. We are only hearing one side of the story.
20
There are a lot of assumptions in many of these comments: that the husband with a paralyzed wife is not paying taxes and Social Security (not necessarily true; many employers of undocumented workers do); that a replacement aide who is an American citizen could somehow be found (not necessarily true; the poor man tried for a year); that the hypothetical aide would accept the job with taxes and Social Security appropriately paid (not necessarily true; many insist on under-the-table payments); that the undocumented worker is somehow receiving government benefits (not necessarily true; many have SocSec etc. withheld from their pay but never receive the benefits); that the husband and wife somehow have a way of surviving in this situation during the uncounted years while they "work to change the law" (not just not necessarily true, but good luck with that unless they are Koch-equivalents). Even more troubling than the ill-thought-through nature of these comments is the lack of empathy for all those struggling in this distressing situation.
88
The law prohibits a judge from allowing a plaintiff benefit in a decision based on social status. The rich and poor are to receive similar consideration in their case. There is no empathy in the law.
1
Every single thing you have suggested cannot be proven. But if the employee has a fake SS, that SS is rejected, and the money paid is returned to the account, and the employer is notified.
Per not getting their citizen worker. In this life, if you pay the wage, you will get your worker. Folks who support illegal aliens and cheap wages, frequently present these arguments, but they are not proven anywhere, and the laws of supply and demand still exist. Pay the wages.. you get your worker.
Per not getting their citizen worker. In this life, if you pay the wage, you will get your worker. Folks who support illegal aliens and cheap wages, frequently present these arguments, but they are not proven anywhere, and the laws of supply and demand still exist. Pay the wages.. you get your worker.
2
But the title of this column isn't "The Lawyer." It's "The Ethicist". Perhaps the argument could be made that breaking the law is unethical in all cases (I certainly won't be the person to make that argument) and if so then the Times should just hire a lawyer to write this column.
2
You have carefully analyzed the competing ethical obligations in both letters according to the method of "balancing" the (quite) different ("reasonably" foreseeable) consequences of one against the other. A method often used in the law. However, the following sentence stands out as being a different sort of rationale: "So there’s a good chance you wouldn’t be keeping her from getting the job anyway." What sort of claim is this? "Go ahead and do it because it might not make a difference." I guess this is some sort of practical ethics where the question might not arise so maybe your action just might be free and unencumbered. In this case, one need not be weighed down by messy ethical thoughts.
2
It's moral and ethical equivocation. Our schools have been teaching this for decades and what we get is a break down in order from it.
NyH, you seem wrong on all three counts.
1
I think the likelihood she has no chance is just the frosting. The ethical issue is the cake.
2
People in France were given an incentive to report neighbors who may be violating the excise taxes on TVs and such. I DK if that is still the case.
4
Any employer who hires someone who showed up 30 minutes late for an interview for any reason deserves what they get.
100
Someone has a big mouth, otherwise, how would anyone know about your household. Some people enjoy there five minutes of fame and do not care who they may hurt in the process.
Blessed be!
Blessed be!
15
Workers know which of their coworkers are undocumented immigrants. It's not a big secret.
6
It's wonderful to see the original and superior Ethicist format returned. Best of luck in the new role, Mr. Appiah.
101
Yes, indeed! I'm really happy to see the switch back to the old format, too.
12
Good to see you back as the sole ethicist. The multi-voice trial was a failure.
146
Why am I not surprised the NYT is advocating to violate immigration law? True, the neighbor shouldn't feel compelled to tattle, but is it really so impossible to find an American citizen or immigrant legally authorized to do the work? I'm assuming because this aide's visa forbids employment no income will be reported and it is all under the table.
21
Yes, the truth is that in many places, including NYC, it is IMPOSSIBLE to find American citizens to do this work, no matter how well you pay, supply benefits, etc. When my children were young, I tried for a very long period to find an America citizen to babysit, and could not, except for teenagers who would babysit sometimes in the evenings. It is the same thing with legally-authorized immigrants. As far as the tax issue, the irony is that you can report income, share Social Security payments, etc.; the IRS will take the payments and it has nothing to do with the Immigration and Naturalization Service. But yes, most do now want to do this. The same is true for many Americans who do this kind of work, as well, but they are more likely to be in the suburbs which are not close to big cities. I have a friend in Minnesota who has a cleaning lady once a week, a local American citizen, who will not do the work if the income is declared. Yes, it is a rotten system, but it does not help to surmise that Americans can easily be found to do the work. We are dependent in this country on "illegal immigrants" or "undocumented immigrants" or whatever term you prefer.
79
You answer annoys me. It shows a breathtaking lack of insight, compassion, practicality and basic human kindness. If you had a kid or an older relative who required extra help in the form of a paid nanny or caretaker, you would know how heartbreakingly difficult it is indeed to find someone acceptable to all involved and how very, very lucky one is to find someone, legal or not, who fits the bill. ANYONE who has gone through this search would sympathize with the "lawbreaker" here. So in answer to your question -- is it really so difficult to find a US citizen or a legal immigrant -- YES it is!!!! Citizens usually do want this kind of job for a variety of reasons, one of which it is better to go on welfare than to take what is usually minimum wage employment.
51
Employeres of illegal aliens should go to jail or face hefty fines. That will break or dependence. Currently it is cheaper for many to hire illegal aliens than American workers. We should make it more expensive to do so.
10
Society functions when we all follow the rules, but all ethical obligations cannot be equivalent. The neighbor claims her alleged civic "duty" rises above the health and safety of one of the citizens. That's actually a cute little power play, but she also happens to be correct. Imagine her satisfaction, as she causes a job loss and a significant expense/hardship. That's real (mean-spirited) devotion to helping the IRS with no tangible reward in sight. A righteous S.O.B is still a S.O.B. Presumably she interrogated the poor aide, who obliged, since how else do you find out someone's status? Sweet. She says she'll back off if the employment ends. Power is delicious, and after this is over, she'll tell Withheld that it was for his own good, and in fact, she may save him from a financial penalty, while causing him serious hardship. The aide cannot pay income tax.
Sadly, the aide and Withheld can only plan to have their plans changed. Crusaders and rat finks rarely go away. This is not 1900, when my 14-year-old grandmother came to America and got a job as a maid.
It would be tempting, but unethical, for Withheld to seek revenge, other than to tell his next aide to refuse to talk to the neighbor, regardless of that aide's status.
Alas. Nowadays there are serious tax consequences for hiring the aide, so Withheld's headaches are just beginning unless he make the change.
It would interesting to know how much it costs to have a few extra letters carved on a tombstone.
Sadly, the aide and Withheld can only plan to have their plans changed. Crusaders and rat finks rarely go away. This is not 1900, when my 14-year-old grandmother came to America and got a job as a maid.
It would be tempting, but unethical, for Withheld to seek revenge, other than to tell his next aide to refuse to talk to the neighbor, regardless of that aide's status.
Alas. Nowadays there are serious tax consequences for hiring the aide, so Withheld's headaches are just beginning unless he make the change.
It would interesting to know how much it costs to have a few extra letters carved on a tombstone.
28
Regarding the neighbor responsibility as an ICE agent, I am afraid she will report you to Immigration even if you can convince her that she has no ethical responsibility in your situation. There are multiple reasons for this. One is that it is not ethic that drives her, it is her serious concern for you and your family. Second is that Agents of SHIELD is at season 3 and your neighbor may be a fan of the show. This is where we human, Earth citizens, stand together to fight against any threats, big or small, against our way of life. There are other reasons, too, but this is a family newspaper so it is best that you work hard to find a real solution to your problem rather than digging deeper into the hole.
5
The man who hired the home health care aide said that he's paying the "standard rate". Well, the availability of lots of illegal aliens, which is what his aide is, drives down wages for everyone, and places a burden on taxpayers to provide healthcare, education, and other services for these workers and their families. I don't consider that "ethical", whatever the needs of his wife. Raise the wage you pay until you can find an American to do the job. Can't afford to? Then lobby your state or Congress to increase assistance for healthcare--not to make it easier for you to hire cheap labor.
38
Standard rate is based on what Medicaid and Medicare set as reimbursement rates for provider agencies. It has nothing to do with the prevailing competitive wage.
21
Lobbying Congress won't work: the GOP/TP says "We can't afford it!" What they CAN afford is kangaroo courts such as the farce against Planned Parenthood based on doctored film footage, and the Benghazi Committee. They've lost their legitimacy.
Your neighbor, the fink, would have probably been right at home in Occupied Paris in the summer of 1942, reporting a hidden Jewish neighbor for her half-kilogram of real coffee.
Your neighbor, the fink, would have probably been right at home in Occupied Paris in the summer of 1942, reporting a hidden Jewish neighbor for her half-kilogram of real coffee.
34
I agree that the writer should lobby Congress for changes. But meanwhile, he's right that there are very, very few Americans who will take these jobs. So he could lobby 15 years for these laws to change, and meanwhile, who's helping his disabled relative?
17
Whatever happened to empathy? And justice? And minding one's own business?
Clearly, the home health aide is not taking anyone's job. And how could her employment possibly have any actual negative impact on the complaining neighbor?
Not to mention that it's a good policy to be on good terms with your neighbors, even if what they do isn't always 100% "by the book".
Clearly, the home health aide is not taking anyone's job. And how could her employment possibly have any actual negative impact on the complaining neighbor?
Not to mention that it's a good policy to be on good terms with your neighbors, even if what they do isn't always 100% "by the book".
85
"Clearly, the home health aide is not taking anyone's job. " That is clearly wrong. They haven't found anybody 'satisfactory' to do the job at the wage offered. It doesn't mean that they are not taking away an American citizen's job. If they offered a satisfactory wage, they would get a satisfactory employee. The competition of the illegal alien means he doesn't have to offer a fair wage.
15
I work in this field. You are mistaken. They would not get a satisfactory employee unless they offered the wages of an RN...and that person would go be an RN somewhere. You have never been in this position; that's why you don't understand.
7
You write: "The competition of the illegal alien means he doesn't have to offer a fair wage." What if the husband's income makes it very hard or impossible to pay a fair wage?
4
The written law of the land is, generally, a poor measure of ethical responsibility. Drugs that are expensive because of laws in the United States can be acquired cheaply and legally in other countries. So it is almost an imperative that a person violates local laws in order to be able to afford proper medical care.
Pot, until recently, was illegal almost everywhere. While I am not a smoker and I have never liked the stuff, I have known hundreds of smokers, and several growers and dealers of pot in Colorado. Not only did I not think that it was my obligation to report the violators of the drug laws, I actually thought that the government was unethical for imposing the rules that they did.
The only harm that is being done by employing an undocumented immigrant is that they are not paying income tax and social security tax. They are probably spending all of their money here, so they are paying every other local tax. Beyond that, there is no harm to anyone.
My feeling is that the neighbor is exercising selective judgement. Far greater results would come from a thousand different activities--from getting better food into local schools, being a part of a neighborhood watch, or volunteering at a local animal shelter. Legal or otherwise, immigrants are just easy targets and those that pick on them are probably being bullies and not holding hands with the righteous.
Pot, until recently, was illegal almost everywhere. While I am not a smoker and I have never liked the stuff, I have known hundreds of smokers, and several growers and dealers of pot in Colorado. Not only did I not think that it was my obligation to report the violators of the drug laws, I actually thought that the government was unethical for imposing the rules that they did.
The only harm that is being done by employing an undocumented immigrant is that they are not paying income tax and social security tax. They are probably spending all of their money here, so they are paying every other local tax. Beyond that, there is no harm to anyone.
My feeling is that the neighbor is exercising selective judgement. Far greater results would come from a thousand different activities--from getting better food into local schools, being a part of a neighborhood watch, or volunteering at a local animal shelter. Legal or otherwise, immigrants are just easy targets and those that pick on them are probably being bullies and not holding hands with the righteous.
56
Actually, the harm that is being done by employing an illegal alien is that they drive down wages for everyone.
And as far as 'spending all of their money here', they send all their disposable income home.
And as far as 'spending all of their money here', they send all their disposable income home.
20
And you know this, even in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary, because of your Ph.D. in macroeconomic, I assume?
6
Again, this neighbor picks easy targets. Somebody should tell her she would have betrayed her Jewish neighbors to the Gestapo in 1942 for a half-kilogram of real coffee.
17
All I can say is thank goodness we're back to a lone voice, not the group think experiment that clearly didn't work out. Mr. Appiah is sounding a lot better on his own than he did as part of that group, and the column once again tests everything against ethics. Hallelujah! Ethics does not lend itself to crowdsourcing.
71
Are they alternating now?
1
No, I don't think so. At least last week was Mr (I think Dr, actually) Appiah.
2
'The aide is paid at the standard rate and has good living conditions, so there are no other issues'
Not true. Are you witholding for social security? Who pays for her healthcare? Does she pay income taxes? Do you give her time off? And why wouldn't you hire a citizen or legal worker?
There are many good, well-trained health aides who would gladly care for your wife for a standard wage.
Not true. Are you witholding for social security? Who pays for her healthcare? Does she pay income taxes? Do you give her time off? And why wouldn't you hire a citizen or legal worker?
There are many good, well-trained health aides who would gladly care for your wife for a standard wage.
33
I agree with most of your response, but the letter-writer is not quite right in claiming that the aide's employment situation raises "no other issues." What about the payroll and income taxes he isn't paying, to everyone else's detriment. What about the free ride he is getting on health insurance, workmen's comp, & unemployment insurance. The writer's motives may be as pure as the driven snow, but he should recognize that the rest of society is subsidizing his decision to hire an undocumented worker off the books. He would be in a better moral position if he were not pocketing these subsidies.
34
The woman is paralyzed, in a wheelchair, and incontinent. I know from experience that the aides Medicare pays for are overburdened, rushed, and always in a hurry to get to their next patient. If the neighbor turns the husband in he could end up in jail or paying a huge fine. I imagine, with a wife so ill, that the family is already under financial strain. I don't much believe in breaking the law, but I can see the neighbor's actions either taking the husband away by putting him in jail or causing the family to go bankrupt with fines and lawyer's fees. Terrible situation all around and the neighbor should butt out. The husband's crime is loving his wife.
139
He is in a terrible situation. That doesn't give him license to break the law.
There are legal alternatives.
There are legal alternatives.
2
How about asking the neighbor to help search for a replacement, while promising to get rid of the helper when a replacement suitable to the wife is found? As soon as you ask someone to do a little work to back up their ethical stance, they often forget what it was that bothered them so much.
1