The VW cheat is different -- it's a blatant cannot-be-explained-away cheat and fraud. It's killed people, though the numbers are open to dispute, certainly killed many more people in Europe than in the US.
This triggers predictable outrage, and also deep cynicism ... because we all expect that few will be punished, and those who benefitted the most and were in fact the most responsible will go scot free.
"nothing to see here folks ... move on, move on ..."
This triggers predictable outrage, and also deep cynicism ... because we all expect that few will be punished, and those who benefitted the most and were in fact the most responsible will go scot free.
"nothing to see here folks ... move on, move on ..."
Let's keep a close eye on what the DOJ does here. The initial reaction--that there is no provable crime to charge--is close to absurd. Since when could Justice not find some violation of Title 18 to charge--even if it's something more "esoteric" like making false statements in government filings. You can bet that if it was a low-level fraudster, they'd find something. But here, where corporate executives are involved, they are stymied. Let's also not let the feds get away with deferring prosecution or non-prosecution for some absurd reason like the collateral consequences to the VW Company that any prosecution would cause. VW did this all to itself. And as Loretta Lynch, our Attorney General announced only weeks ago, let's have some accountability for this kind of deplorable conduct. Time to get serious about corporate crime.
2
I saw an ad for Audi (a subsidiary of Volkswagon) today with the tag line, "Truth in Engineering." They might want to rethink that.
2
VW needs to realize they are risking becoming the Hillary Clinton of automakers with their reticence to come clean on the first round of inquiries.
My previous and current cars are VWs, gas, not diesel.
Regardless, I'll be looking elsewhere next.
Period.
Regardless, I'll be looking elsewhere next.
Period.
I suspect that VW is pretty well stuck. They sold their cars as fun to drive, non-polluting and fuel efficient. They flat-out lied about the non-polluting part. The cars should be pulled from the road until they can be brought into compliance. For drivers who are inconvenienced, VW should be obligated to pay for the purchase (rent or lease) of a similar vehicle that does comply and provides the same or better driving experience and fuel economy. (There are certainly a number of other German, Japanese, Korean, and US automakers with suitable product.)
(I live in a state where "gross polluters" cannot be operated, so pulling such vehicles off the road is nothing new.)
If a fix brings the cars into pollution compliance, then none of them should be allowed to operate without the fix. If the fix does not maintain the same performance and fuel economy, the owners should be entitled to substantial refunds or replacements.
If this results in VW going out of business--too bad.
(I live in a state where "gross polluters" cannot be operated, so pulling such vehicles off the road is nothing new.)
If a fix brings the cars into pollution compliance, then none of them should be allowed to operate without the fix. If the fix does not maintain the same performance and fuel economy, the owners should be entitled to substantial refunds or replacements.
If this results in VW going out of business--too bad.
1
All of you who are calling for whoever is responsible to be delivered to the U.S. and jailed are deluded.
1. By all accounts, the cars affected in the U.S. is less than 5% of the vehicles affected worldwide.
2. The engineers are most likely German citizens living and working in Germany at VW's worldwide HQ in Wolfsburg. How far do you think the U.S. can reach with criminal proceedings? I can guarantee you nobody will be extradited if there would be a farce of a trial in absentia sentencing anyone to jail. If you believe they should, you are deluded.
3. I'm surprised at how inept people seem to be at understanding the fact that Mr. Horn is only the CEO of VW of the Americas not Volkswagen AG, even some of the Congressmen during yesterday's hearing seemed to be unable to grasp that fact.
1. By all accounts, the cars affected in the U.S. is less than 5% of the vehicles affected worldwide.
2. The engineers are most likely German citizens living and working in Germany at VW's worldwide HQ in Wolfsburg. How far do you think the U.S. can reach with criminal proceedings? I can guarantee you nobody will be extradited if there would be a farce of a trial in absentia sentencing anyone to jail. If you believe they should, you are deluded.
3. I'm surprised at how inept people seem to be at understanding the fact that Mr. Horn is only the CEO of VW of the Americas not Volkswagen AG, even some of the Congressmen during yesterday's hearing seemed to be unable to grasp that fact.
4
Volkswagen is guilty of deception and lying and definitely some higher ups are involved. We will pursue it aggressively and they will definitely pay the price.
However, I wish we had the same zeal pursuing Wall Street when they nearly destroyed our economy. To my knowledge no big fish went to jail or was punished.
However, I wish we had the same zeal pursuing Wall Street when they nearly destroyed our economy. To my knowledge no big fish went to jail or was punished.
5
The well compensated ex-CEO of VW was not worth his pay or his parachute.
The cost of software and hardware engineering to accomplish this ruse had to come out of someones budget and either the CEO did not have adequate monitoring in place or saw the budget and approved it.
VW should do the right thing and buy back every bad car or replace with a new one. At $10,000 per vehicle they will have to drop about $110 Billion. Either way they will take a big hit and too bad for the stockholders. Sorry but buying stock is a gamble and by not voting in every corporate election to make sure ethical honest folks are in power you stockholders deserve to lose. Bailing out the stockholders is the same as bailing out the guy losing at the craps table.
The cost of software and hardware engineering to accomplish this ruse had to come out of someones budget and either the CEO did not have adequate monitoring in place or saw the budget and approved it.
VW should do the right thing and buy back every bad car or replace with a new one. At $10,000 per vehicle they will have to drop about $110 Billion. Either way they will take a big hit and too bad for the stockholders. Sorry but buying stock is a gamble and by not voting in every corporate election to make sure ethical honest folks are in power you stockholders deserve to lose. Bailing out the stockholders is the same as bailing out the guy losing at the craps table.
1
In addition to having the EPA hit them with the maximum fine allowed, VW should be forced to buy back all these cars right away. When they bring them into compliance they can resell them. They should not be allowed to continue to pollute our air and harm our health.
2
Buying my TDI Jetta was a huge, a HUGE investment for me. I thought I was smart. I thought I was doing an environmentally responsible thing. I love driving my car. I love the money it saves me in gas. I'm 64. I thought it would be my last car for a long time.
But now I am angry. I feel betrayed, duped and swindled. VW's actions show their greed and blatant arrogance. If VW wants to retain the loyalty of any of their customers they should step up and make it right - NOW. The longer they drag this scandal out the faster they'll lose their customer base. Isn't that obvious?
This isn't just a company problem. This is a German problem. The world will be suspicious of anything made in Germany from now on. Fix it. Fix it fast. VW - show some ethical behavior!
But now I am angry. I feel betrayed, duped and swindled. VW's actions show their greed and blatant arrogance. If VW wants to retain the loyalty of any of their customers they should step up and make it right - NOW. The longer they drag this scandal out the faster they'll lose their customer base. Isn't that obvious?
This isn't just a company problem. This is a German problem. The world will be suspicious of anything made in Germany from now on. Fix it. Fix it fast. VW - show some ethical behavior!
5
If you believe that a handful of middle level managers can alter components of product in the automotive industry without upper level management knowing about it and approving it we have a serious problem. What other changes can these middle level managers make without executive approval. I wouldn't buy, never mind ride in, a car manufactured by a company that operates this way.
2
Too big to fail, too big to follow rules. Too little to do anything about it.
2
VW's statement is oddly clueless about the scandal. It has to come to grips with it before it can even think about future growth (or more likely future decline) and should not be dealing with them side by side, as though the issue is a loose stair on the way to the top.
Certainly, there are hints that people higher up knew something of an emissions issue. But, that said, I suggest caution in asserting disbelief in a story that hasn't been fully told. I can imagine all sorts of ways this might have unfolded, and not all of them are deep and dark.
Certainly, there are hints that people higher up knew something of an emissions issue. But, that said, I suggest caution in asserting disbelief in a story that hasn't been fully told. I can imagine all sorts of ways this might have unfolded, and not all of them are deep and dark.
1
VW's "black box" had an enormous positive impact of its bottom line. Therefore, those who made it possible had to be the heroes of the boardroom. We are asked to believe that VW computer guy made the company tens of millions with his device, but nobody kjnows who he is. Pretty generous guy.
5
Yes, those that fight the regulatory safety and emission "battles" and "win" are corporate heroes. Just to delay or stop an initiative is half the battle. It's important to note that every initiative ever proposed by the NHTSA was challenged. One wonders what people who occupy positions like Manager, Safety Regulatory Policy at Volkswagen of America did for their corporation. The federal docket system at www.regulations.gov contains VW submissions. As example, see http://www.regulations.gov/#!documentDetail;D=NHTSA-2012-0177-1042
2
According to news reports Mr. Horn knew about the situation in 2014.
If true, and unless he was the actual whistle blower, that makes him an accomplice after the fact in defrauding all of the victims of this fraud, and of course the government of the United States.
'Gee, sorry about that' does not forgive criminal conspiracy.
If true, and unless he was the actual whistle blower, that makes him an accomplice after the fact in defrauding all of the victims of this fraud, and of course the government of the United States.
'Gee, sorry about that' does not forgive criminal conspiracy.
I've been in research and development for over 20 years. I can tell you with complete and utter certainty that software designed to cheat, circumvent or undermine regulatory compliance standards would not be developed, tested and installed in any kind of a system without the direct involvement of senior corporate management ... and most of all, the CEO. Even if the project was a skunkworks, that skunkworks would have to be sanctioned and funded from the highest levels of the company. Everyone from the CEO on down must be involved.
The very idea that a "rogue" group of engineers was responsible for this is complete nonsense and complete lie. What would this group have to gain? Nothing as far as I can tell. But the company's bottomline would gain a great deal.
Finally, engineering groups do not remain static. Somehow, new engineers would need to maintain secrecy. The only way secrecy could be maintained would be through directives from senior management with the message that revealing the secret would result in instant termination, legal action and road blocks to finding another job. Only senior management can wield the full power of the corporation to keep its employees in line. And that's what would be needed to maintain this secret.
The very idea that a "rogue" group of engineers was responsible for this is complete nonsense and complete lie. What would this group have to gain? Nothing as far as I can tell. But the company's bottomline would gain a great deal.
Finally, engineering groups do not remain static. Somehow, new engineers would need to maintain secrecy. The only way secrecy could be maintained would be through directives from senior management with the message that revealing the secret would result in instant termination, legal action and road blocks to finding another job. Only senior management can wield the full power of the corporation to keep its employees in line. And that's what would be needed to maintain this secret.
1
The Sarbanes–Oxley Act of 2002 required that the CEO of a publicly-held company certify his company's books were accurate. What we need---as the VW example demonstrates---is legislation that applies the S-B principal to all phases of corporate performance.
Ironically, Republicans have been pushing to have Sarbanes-Oxley revoked or modified , arguing that it is too expensive and inconvenient and that CEOs should not be expected to know what's really going on company property.
Ironically, Republicans have been pushing to have Sarbanes-Oxley revoked or modified , arguing that it is too expensive and inconvenient and that CEOs should not be expected to know what's really going on company property.
2
VW Needs To Come Clean Now. Really? That's the best the NY Times editorial board can come up with when another pop-up senate hearing by lying and thieving politicians of lying and thieving corporate heads and feigning incredulity at corporate lying and thieving by companies whose political contributions our political hacks spend most of their working time coveting.
And all you can do is add to the public misdirection and suggest they come clean. It seems our defunct third estate has a working defeat device in its own machinery.
And all you can do is add to the public misdirection and suggest they come clean. It seems our defunct third estate has a working defeat device in its own machinery.
3
The only way to VW to come clean if by handing over the criminals who committed the crime to prosecutors.
Of course, why should they?
Obama will never hang over the intellectual authors of the war crime committed against Doctors Without Borders in Afghanistan to an international war crimes tribunal.
And under Pope Francis, it is still official Vatican policy to block investigations into the crimes of pedophile priests. The pope even denounced people in Chile recently as "stupid communists" for wanting justice for the victims of pedophile priests.
Of course, why should they?
Obama will never hang over the intellectual authors of the war crime committed against Doctors Without Borders in Afghanistan to an international war crimes tribunal.
And under Pope Francis, it is still official Vatican policy to block investigations into the crimes of pedophile priests. The pope even denounced people in Chile recently as "stupid communists" for wanting justice for the victims of pedophile priests.
Besides the fraud and the environmental damage this scandal, as the editorial points out, has the standard defense, the higher ups did not know what was going on. It does raise the issue of why the higher ups are paid so much if they do not know what is going on in their companies.
3
Of course the CEO knew! Most German companies (I work with a lot of big ones on a regular basis) are top-down, command-and-control pyramid structures with a rigid hierarchy.
There is NO WAY that a gigantic, criminal scam with global implications would be pulled off by some middle manager (or even by a VP) without the entire chain of command knowing about it, and most importantly having AUTHORIZED it.
This is the way German businesses work. This is the way Germans operate. They never break the corporate chain of command. "Loose cannons" do NOT EXIST.
Bottom line: Mr. Muller is LYING and if I were a prosecutor I would start digging deeper to understand why.
There is NO WAY that a gigantic, criminal scam with global implications would be pulled off by some middle manager (or even by a VP) without the entire chain of command knowing about it, and most importantly having AUTHORIZED it.
This is the way German businesses work. This is the way Germans operate. They never break the corporate chain of command. "Loose cannons" do NOT EXIST.
Bottom line: Mr. Muller is LYING and if I were a prosecutor I would start digging deeper to understand why.
5
Just don't buy a VW. If you do, you'll be paying later for their cheating through higher prices on everything VW. Its happened with the other manufacturers when they've "messed-up" one way or another. They've got everyone coming and going!
1
Why isn't anyone questioning the clean air standard? These engines are not producing green house gasses. They do produce gases that aid to smog. Most owners don't live and drive in areas where that is a problem. Europe which is more dense then the US, has a lower standard, which suggests regulators in L.A., and Washington set standards that are essentially not applicable to someone driving in say Nebraska or 90% of the country for that matter. We need to be looking beyond VW for the real problem.
2
Has the Editorial Board yet recognized that this is another example where regulation has not been able to solve the problem?
Those that are willing to cheat are going to do whatever it takes to make the "regulation" look foolish.
Those that are willing to cheat are going to do whatever it takes to make the "regulation" look foolish.
The cheating was ultimately exposed via the American EPA's intervention.
The fact that this initially went undetected for about 5 years points to the need for a beefed-up EPA, not the bare-boned and increasingly impotent agency the GOP is striving for.
The fact that this initially went undetected for about 5 years points to the need for a beefed-up EPA, not the bare-boned and increasingly impotent agency the GOP is striving for.
2
VW spent many years and a huge investment to develop the 1.6 and 2 liter diesel engines in question only to learn their investment would be wasted as there was no way these engines could be managed to meet emission regulations and still meet performance and economy goals. A problem such as this surely must have been brought to the attention of the corporate hierarchy as these engines were destined for a substantial percentage of the company's worldwide production. Mr. Horn knew in the Spring of 2014, but rather than address the problem he, no doubt with home office encouragement, obfuscated. The engine was developed around 2008. Tell me no high ranking executive was aware of the problem and the proposed "fix". In some quarters in the US it is thought corporations should be treated as persons. But can you put an entire corporation the size of VW in jail? And as you will never really find out who knew what and who approved the "fix", the best governments can do is fine the VW entity, hurting their many thousands of employees, suppliers, dealers and stockholders. But the real penalty will be down the road when the company is forced to settle with the 500,000 TDI owners in the US and their attorneys.
3
Most owners of these polluters aren't even going to bring their cars in for the recall,fearing lower MPG and/or performance.They shouldn't be allowed to drive these polluters.
For those who think they can avoid a reflash of the ECU which would affect poorer performance and driveability think again. California DMV has a program which would tag the cars that need a dealer certified update else they can't register their cars. Other states will be mandated to do so even if they do not have a smog cert program. Basically the original program in the ECU is illegal.
Unless you want to drive it only on your private property is the only option to avoid a reflash.
Unless you want to drive it only on your private property is the only option to avoid a reflash.
1
Now that VW has blamed a couple of rogue engineers for their chicanery, how soon before they pivot and pin it all on Bernie Madoff? After all, he single-handedly (yeah, right) pulled off one the biggest Wall Street ripoffs of all time.
2
Good editorial; but you don't go far enough. Identify the people who perpetrated or otherwise knew about the software that defeated emissions testing -- by all means. However, that ignores the cover-up and denials that VW has engaged in since the very first tests detected cheating. Who did what and when? Who knew, but did nothing?
The NSA should sieze all VW internal emails before they have time to destory the evidence. We (the US) have the tehcnology to go through whatever securty VW has like a hot knife thorugh butter. We can get every email, text message, and phone call their execs made for the past several years. Maybe we should use this power for good instead of chasing ghosts and violating American's civil liberties.
1
• Extent of Intellectual Corruption
An inescapable fact is that lack of competence, integrity, compliance, and/or transparency at any level of an organization has never been shown to have been confined to that level. Moral pathogens propagate.
An inescapable fact is that lack of competence, integrity, compliance, and/or transparency at any level of an organization has never been shown to have been confined to that level. Moral pathogens propagate.
The increase in pollution from this deception can be calculated, and directly correlated with an increase in fatalities from air pollution related diseases. This was not an accident, but a willful scheme motivated by financial gain. Those who perpetrated this crime can be tried for murder.
2
Companies in traditional industries like automotives are typically hierarchical.German Companies in traditional industries like automotives are particularly so.Engineers in automotive companies are powerful but not the ultimate decision makers.Even if the software concerned was developed by a so called "skunkworks" in the bowels of the organization,it's deployment in multiple diesel models would require the approval of functional management as well as other internal stakeholders such as Marketing , Regulatory/Legal and Public Affairs,particularly since the issue at hand was an environmental claim and source of competitive advantage aligned with the Company's market share goals.The CEO may not haver been aware but some in the C-suite MUST have been.
On the other hand,having heard "rumors",the head of US operations may have decided to ignore them or made enquiries at Headquarters and taken reassurance at face value.Like in other cases of major fraud,every effort should be made to identify those in authority "in the know",have them extradited to the US and held accountable.
On the other hand,having heard "rumors",the head of US operations may have decided to ignore them or made enquiries at Headquarters and taken reassurance at face value.Like in other cases of major fraud,every effort should be made to identify those in authority "in the know",have them extradited to the US and held accountable.
11
While people are wondering whether this is the only deception at VW, they might also consider a different question: what other auto makers besides VW may have engaged in deception relating to emissions ratings?
2
This story should make us all consider how smoothly paved the road to hell appears, at the outset. From those "couple of software engineers" who initiated the whole mess to the fat male cats in their fancy suits and haircuts standing up to our honorable representatives, it's a sobering vision of hubris and amorality.
“Do you really think that a chief executive had time for the inner functioning of engine software?”
When the purpose of the software is to disable the emissions control equipment on millions of vehicles, yes we do Mr Muller.
Mr. Muller seems to like rhetorical questions, so how about this one, directed to him: "Do you really expect us to believe that a small group of engineers could make software changes to render ineffective the emission control systems on millions of vehicles produced by the company without the knowledge or consent of anyone in senior management?"
VW has committed what may be the most egregious corporate misconduct in the history of business. It's management of the crisis suggests they have no grasp of the seriousness of their situation, which is either stupid beyond belief or brilliant in that its goal is to show they are so out of touch that it is very plausible the company sold 11 million cars without functioning emission controls without the knowledge of management. In either case the company should be broken up and reorganized, it should not continue to exist.
When the purpose of the software is to disable the emissions control equipment on millions of vehicles, yes we do Mr Muller.
Mr. Muller seems to like rhetorical questions, so how about this one, directed to him: "Do you really expect us to believe that a small group of engineers could make software changes to render ineffective the emission control systems on millions of vehicles produced by the company without the knowledge or consent of anyone in senior management?"
VW has committed what may be the most egregious corporate misconduct in the history of business. It's management of the crisis suggests they have no grasp of the seriousness of their situation, which is either stupid beyond belief or brilliant in that its goal is to show they are so out of touch that it is very plausible the company sold 11 million cars without functioning emission controls without the knowledge of management. In either case the company should be broken up and reorganized, it should not continue to exist.
Meanwhile, Matthias Müller, the newly appointed Volkswagen chief executive, continued to insist that his predecessor, Martin Winterkorn, who resigned shortly after the scandal broke in September, knew nothing. “Do you really think that a chief executive had time for the inner functioning of engine software?”
And I don't expect Pres. Obama or the generals knew the targeting coordinates of the hospital in Kunduz Afghanistan we just destroyed. But you have to admire Müller's nerve. Jamie Dimon and the rest of the banker/thieves have nothing on VW.
And I don't expect Pres. Obama or the generals knew the targeting coordinates of the hospital in Kunduz Afghanistan we just destroyed. But you have to admire Müller's nerve. Jamie Dimon and the rest of the banker/thieves have nothing on VW.
We have already been informed by people with inside knowledge of how the company works that nothing of any consequence happens unless it is approved from the very top. Apparently this has been going on for the past 7 years. So who are they trying to fool? None of this business about the need for more investigation has any credibility whatsoever. The Board and Senior Management bears collective responsibility for massive fraud and the key shareholders should immediately insist that all of them be replaced. Then a real clean-up of what appears to be an incestuous, arrogant and stubborn corporate culture there can begin. Maybe the accumulation of hugely expensive lawsuits from millions of cheated and misled customers will trigger it. How can anyone trust anything from that company until it is reformed?
2
The simple and to me obvious solution is for world governments to require that owners of these diesel cars return them to dealers for a full refund of their purchase price. The cars will have to be retrofitted to meet emission control standards before they can be resold. This would be a market driven approach fair to all parties.
Additionally, because this is a publicly held corporation, shareholders will sue for their losses.
Based on past experiences with the banks and the oil companies, it is a waste of time and money for governments to fixate on getting to the bottom of this when we all know that those who are guilty of malfeasance will be shielded from prosecution, will not serve time, and will not be financially impaired. Even if they were, how does this solve the problem for consumers and shareholders? And, for the rest of us, how does this help save the environment?
Let capitalism run its true course here. VW will likely be forced out of business unless Germany bails them out.
Additionally, because this is a publicly held corporation, shareholders will sue for their losses.
Based on past experiences with the banks and the oil companies, it is a waste of time and money for governments to fixate on getting to the bottom of this when we all know that those who are guilty of malfeasance will be shielded from prosecution, will not serve time, and will not be financially impaired. Even if they were, how does this solve the problem for consumers and shareholders? And, for the rest of us, how does this help save the environment?
Let capitalism run its true course here. VW will likely be forced out of business unless Germany bails them out.
1
We bought a Beetle new in 1957 to go on our honeymoon. It served us well for almost a decade until our family outgrew that well made bug. After this cheating scandal came to light we no longer would put our trust in VW. Good will well earned, then lost by inept leadership.
The one thing in this article that stuck out to me was "On Thursday, German prosecutors raided the corporate offices..." It has been weeks since VW admitted a crime was committed, and the police are just now getting around to investigating? Clearly the German government remains complicit in this if they are giving the bad guys that much time to clean up the blood and hide the bodies.
1
Working in another highly regulated industry, pharmaceuticals, I can say with no doubt that in the case of a regulatory compliance issue impacting the commercial viability of a major product line in a key market, senior management would be following every aspect of that issue very closely, even to the point of what their regulatory and R&D people were communicating to the EPA. In such a situation, yes, absolutely, the CEO and other senior execs would make as much time as needed "for the inner functioning of engine software" if that was the direction that discussion were going in with the EPA.
So the official story will be that a handful of misguided engineers did this on their own. They then get sort of fired, but really taken care of for falling on the company sword. The actual story will never surface.
The only way to stop this (in my experience, normal corporate working) is to criminalize, not only automaker fraud, but anything else that has monetary or public health impact. Those 'underlings' will not be so eager to take the rap when jail is involved.
When bankers, manufacturers, scammers, can all skate, while petty crime results in felony charges, we are headed in the wrong direction.
The only way to stop this (in my experience, normal corporate working) is to criminalize, not only automaker fraud, but anything else that has monetary or public health impact. Those 'underlings' will not be so eager to take the rap when jail is involved.
When bankers, manufacturers, scammers, can all skate, while petty crime results in felony charges, we are headed in the wrong direction.
How can VW fix the pollution they have created? Let the punishment fit the crime.
The additional pollution per car caused by VW's decisions to defeat mandated pollution controls and to defraud its customers can be estimated with some accuracy. It may be that, as has been claimed, that part of the time the cars so equipped got higher MPG or otherwise ran more efficiently at ideal RPM's. But part of that time they illegally belched carcinogenic soot and other pollutants into our children's and our lungs.
For that part of each car's operations when illegal equipment caused additional pollution, estimate the total pollutants discharged. Sum those per-car amounts for VW's U.S. diesel fleet. Going forward require that VW both recall and fix the existing vehicles AND that over 5 years that they increase their fleet mileage and pollution controls beyond other car makers' U.S. fleet requirements so as to reduce VW's pollution going forward by at least as much as they caused.
In civil litigation a punitive damage award of 3X is often applied when deliberately illegal actions caused the damage. So, for example, if a vehicle ran for 4 years before being recalled, the VW fleet would be required for that vehicle to remediate 12 car-years worth of pollution by extra emission reduction of its fleet's future pollution.
The additional pollution per car caused by VW's decisions to defeat mandated pollution controls and to defraud its customers can be estimated with some accuracy. It may be that, as has been claimed, that part of the time the cars so equipped got higher MPG or otherwise ran more efficiently at ideal RPM's. But part of that time they illegally belched carcinogenic soot and other pollutants into our children's and our lungs.
For that part of each car's operations when illegal equipment caused additional pollution, estimate the total pollutants discharged. Sum those per-car amounts for VW's U.S. diesel fleet. Going forward require that VW both recall and fix the existing vehicles AND that over 5 years that they increase their fleet mileage and pollution controls beyond other car makers' U.S. fleet requirements so as to reduce VW's pollution going forward by at least as much as they caused.
In civil litigation a punitive damage award of 3X is often applied when deliberately illegal actions caused the damage. So, for example, if a vehicle ran for 4 years before being recalled, the VW fleet would be required for that vehicle to remediate 12 car-years worth of pollution by extra emission reduction of its fleet's future pollution.
1
I am a software engineer - and the idea that this deception was the work of "a couple of software engineers" is ludicrous.
Even the most mundane corporate software is ordered by internal clients, with the details of the performance specified in great detail - this is captured in something called a requirements document. Software engineers do have some latitude in exactly how they meet these requirements but I have never seen a single case where the performance of the software was not specified and closely reviewed by management.
Anyone who has ever worked in the software industry will recognize this for what it is - a blatant attempt to shift blame to lower lever employees who had no say in this kind of decision.
The more I hear of this whole situation the less confidence I have that we will ever learn the truth. VW should be ashamed to have done this and admit how it happened. But instead they offer implausible lies in an attempt to avoid bearing responsibility for their malfeasance.
Even the most mundane corporate software is ordered by internal clients, with the details of the performance specified in great detail - this is captured in something called a requirements document. Software engineers do have some latitude in exactly how they meet these requirements but I have never seen a single case where the performance of the software was not specified and closely reviewed by management.
Anyone who has ever worked in the software industry will recognize this for what it is - a blatant attempt to shift blame to lower lever employees who had no say in this kind of decision.
The more I hear of this whole situation the less confidence I have that we will ever learn the truth. VW should be ashamed to have done this and admit how it happened. But instead they offer implausible lies in an attempt to avoid bearing responsibility for their malfeasance.
26
You want them to admit they committed fraud? Why would they do that when it is so easy to get away with fraud for corporations, but not for individuals? If they were honest they'd be in jail.
2
For my next car I was seriously considering a VW. Not anymore.
7
As an owner who was about to sell my TDI, I am incensed. I don't want this to be treated as the usual fix-the-part recall with the stone-faced executive pointing down the food chain to the small fish. I want VW to be forced to buy back these cars. They marketed something that doesn't exist and It is immaterial to me whether that decision was made at the top, known by hundreds or was a couple of rogue employees. This was a massive, multi-year fraud committed by Volkswagen Corporation to subvert regulators, deceive customers and make money while degrading the air of our planet.
49
" forced to admit one of the biggest frauds in auto industry "? Surely not. Compared to the Covair, this is much less.
The Times are certain, like when they helped lead us into Iraq, that they now where there evidence will lead to. Why don't we wait and see? One thing is clear, that if cars can meet the tests when they are programmed to do so, they can meet the test the rest of the time,perhaps at different performance levels.
The situation is more complex than the Times understands,. The fact that The Times do not understand how programmers at a low level can get away with such things, perhaps explains how the Times are surprised that plane for our nuclear weapons are now in China and likely other places.
The Times are certain, like when they helped lead us into Iraq, that they now where there evidence will lead to. Why don't we wait and see? One thing is clear, that if cars can meet the tests when they are programmed to do so, they can meet the test the rest of the time,perhaps at different performance levels.
The situation is more complex than the Times understands,. The fact that The Times do not understand how programmers at a low level can get away with such things, perhaps explains how the Times are surprised that plane for our nuclear weapons are now in China and likely other places.
4
Let me guess, you are an engineer.
Your getting off subject...besides how many corvairs are we talking here? 11 Million? I think not.
I have been a VW fan for over 30 years and have 2 now, including one of the offending diesels. At this rate, I will switch to another brand - VW is compounding the massive fraud with their cack-handed, incremental "damage control", designed to minimize the trauma for VW rather than make full throated reparations to their injured stakeholders:
- Allowing Mr Winterkorn to walk away with a massive severance while disowning all knowledge of the scheme to deceive; I don't believe it but, irrespective of what he knew or didn't, there is the part played in this by his management style and organization. He should have been fired for cause.
- Appointing Mr Muller, a Winterkorn mentee and acolyte, as Mr Winterkorn's successor - lots of radical change there. How about bringing in a new broom from outside VAG, perhaps even (whisper it) a non-German.
- One of Mr Horn's most public statements since the scandal broke is that VW "totally screwed up". Notice the careful elision here. "Totally screwing up" is when you set out to make a nice dinner and end with a burned mess because you spent half an hour on the phone when you should have taken the dinner out of the oven. It's something human, uncalculated, that any of us could do at any time. VW's carefully engineered plot to defraud regulators and owners was the antithesis of a "screw up" - succeeded brilliantly for years.
- And we are still waiting for news of a fix for our polluting cars that does not cause major depreciation....
- Allowing Mr Winterkorn to walk away with a massive severance while disowning all knowledge of the scheme to deceive; I don't believe it but, irrespective of what he knew or didn't, there is the part played in this by his management style and organization. He should have been fired for cause.
- Appointing Mr Muller, a Winterkorn mentee and acolyte, as Mr Winterkorn's successor - lots of radical change there. How about bringing in a new broom from outside VAG, perhaps even (whisper it) a non-German.
- One of Mr Horn's most public statements since the scandal broke is that VW "totally screwed up". Notice the careful elision here. "Totally screwing up" is when you set out to make a nice dinner and end with a burned mess because you spent half an hour on the phone when you should have taken the dinner out of the oven. It's something human, uncalculated, that any of us could do at any time. VW's carefully engineered plot to defraud regulators and owners was the antithesis of a "screw up" - succeeded brilliantly for years.
- And we are still waiting for news of a fix for our polluting cars that does not cause major depreciation....
29
I agree with need for regulations and what VW did was atrocious. In the past, Honda, GM and others have also used defeat devices. They are probably currently on other diesel cars. What is curious is all the outrage at VW for this when yes they are polluting and do need to be sanctioned but recently Chrysler, GM, Toyota, Hundai have had issues some involving many more automobiles and were unsafe and even deadly with not nearly the same press coverage.
This and the other incidents show how regulations and oversight are needed, less government would only increase situations that are harmful and dangerous.
This and the other incidents show how regulations and oversight are needed, less government would only increase situations that are harmful and dangerous.
3
'Nobody believes that the handful of senior managers suspended so far, three of them involved in engine development, could have carried out this scheme without any support.'
Many, perhaps most, criminal statutes contain a phrase that responsibility attaches if the accused 'knew, or should have known' of criminal conduct. You cannot claim the Sergeant Schulz defence ('I know nozzing! I see nozzing!'). Or, to change metaphors, you cannot claim that you only play the piano in the parlor - or run the boarding house - and can't be expected to know what the girls and their guests are doing upstairs.
Many, perhaps most, criminal statutes contain a phrase that responsibility attaches if the accused 'knew, or should have known' of criminal conduct. You cannot claim the Sergeant Schulz defence ('I know nozzing! I see nozzing!'). Or, to change metaphors, you cannot claim that you only play the piano in the parlor - or run the boarding house - and can't be expected to know what the girls and their guests are doing upstairs.
3
VW has committed what is possibly the most egregious act of corporate misconduct in the history of business. It is now adding to its list of accomplishments the most inept response to a major crisis in the history of business.
Mr. Muller seems to like rhetorical questions. Well, here is one for him: “Do you really expect us to believe that VW sold millions of vehicles equipped with secret software to defeat emission control systems during regular operation without the knowledge or consent of the CEO?
The rot at VW is very deep. The company should not continue to exist in its present form. The fines levied by governments should be set at a level that produces that result.
Mr. Muller seems to like rhetorical questions. Well, here is one for him: “Do you really expect us to believe that VW sold millions of vehicles equipped with secret software to defeat emission control systems during regular operation without the knowledge or consent of the CEO?
The rot at VW is very deep. The company should not continue to exist in its present form. The fines levied by governments should be set at a level that produces that result.
1
Fritz is very smart, and made billions with their strategy. Obvious the German government in the end, will bail them out. Same as we bailed out Government motors. The reason of course will be justified ,to save jobs, jobs that are fast moving to Mexico. Banks, Drug companies, and car companies, screw us and we never get kissed first.
1
"Since they were forced to admit one of the biggest frauds in auto industry history last month . . ."
Who hacked VW cars to tip off investigators? Hacking of the auto industry will soon be a bigger story.
Who hacked VW cars to tip off investigators? Hacking of the auto industry will soon be a bigger story.
Think about this next time you hop into your Escalade:
The engineers at VW were able to create an engine producing forty times the pollution with one-third the fuel.
Or so we are to believe.
The engineers at VW were able to create an engine producing forty times the pollution with one-third the fuel.
Or so we are to believe.
2
It emits forty times the pollution, it does not create 40 times the pollution. There is a difference.
Do I think a CEO has time for inner workings of software? No. Do I think a CEO would be looped into anything that threatened the strategic goal of clean diesel as the path to market dominance? Oh yeah. VW needs to buy back EVERY SINGLE TDI at it's original price. THEN it needs to pay all the penalties.
1
That is what I think too. I just bought one June 1-- even though I paid full price I felt so great about the purchase, being a california tree-hugger and all. Now I feel ripped off- - of my values and my dollars. But Mark-- who is going to demand your proposal?
Volkswagen is in a no win situation of their own doing. They have made the regulators look bad as well as themselves. The regulators will show them no mercy and quite to the contrary will go out of their way to put every suspected misdeed on VW's part under the microscope. As a result any thing, large or small will make the front page and the regulators will make sure nothing sticks to them.
“We must overcome the current crisis,” he explained, “but we must also ensure that Volkswagen continues to grow.”
Once again, the well-being of the hallowed corporation supersedes that of the deluded customer in the mind of the corporate execs. The consumer is doubly cheated: he has paid for something he has not received (mileage efficiency and environmental cleanliness), and has seen his resale value erode beyond a normal depreciation rate. Empty apologies are just not enough; monetary compensation is due the owners of these diesel vehicles. And someone from VW needs to be making little rocks out of big ones.
Once again, the well-being of the hallowed corporation supersedes that of the deluded customer in the mind of the corporate execs. The consumer is doubly cheated: he has paid for something he has not received (mileage efficiency and environmental cleanliness), and has seen his resale value erode beyond a normal depreciation rate. Empty apologies are just not enough; monetary compensation is due the owners of these diesel vehicles. And someone from VW needs to be making little rocks out of big ones.
3
It boggles the mind that fraud at this level could credibly be blamed on a few rogue engineers. Just like fraud serious enough to bring the world's banking system to its knees could credibly be blamed on a few rogue bankers. But there we were then and here we are now . And this is where we will be again in the future as long as we continue to let ourselves be fooled by these tactics.
1
I have worked with some large corporations as a consulting engineer and I can guarantee that sales, marketing, and financial executives - MBA types - are almost always technical dunces. As best I can tell from the internet, Mr. Horn came up through sales and marketing at VW.
Back in Germany it seems many senior executives came up through engineering and production at VW. Certainly those guys knew or should have known and understood the engineering details of their star U.S. products: "clean" very economical diesel small and mid-size cars. It was precisely these products VW was using to differentiate itself in the marketplace and drive better market share.
I do not know what the alternative might have been. It will be shocking if the cars retain good enough fuel economy and performance after the spoof is turned off. That will mean some VW engineers will have run VW onto the rocks for little gain.
What I want to know is who the highest level executive is who was fully informed of the spoof and thought VW could get away with it, forever. Horn is not that guy.
Back in Germany it seems many senior executives came up through engineering and production at VW. Certainly those guys knew or should have known and understood the engineering details of their star U.S. products: "clean" very economical diesel small and mid-size cars. It was precisely these products VW was using to differentiate itself in the marketplace and drive better market share.
I do not know what the alternative might have been. It will be shocking if the cars retain good enough fuel economy and performance after the spoof is turned off. That will mean some VW engineers will have run VW onto the rocks for little gain.
What I want to know is who the highest level executive is who was fully informed of the spoof and thought VW could get away with it, forever. Horn is not that guy.
12
Who knew that Sergeant Schultz ran both Volkswagen and Hogan;s Heroes' Stalag 13 ?
"I know nothing! I see nothing! I hear nothing!"
"I know nothing! I see nothing! I hear nothing!"
76
Please everybody. As the only German kids on a school bus full of Ukrainians up here in the Canadian prairies, it's not nothing. It's notink. Hogans Heroes was the bane of our existence. Notink was worse. Notink! Except maybe knowing deep down the caricature was apt.
1
I was going to buy an Audi Q5 - not anymore. With this deception, who knows how many others exist about VW products. Does anyone know a liar that only told one lie?
15
I was awaiting the 2016 Audi A3 2.0 TDI Sportback that was supposed to be at dealers anytime now. Never going to happen.
For those who don't know, Volkswagen's brands are:
VW, Audi, Porsche, Skoda, Seat, Bentley, Lamborghini, Bugatti, Scania, MAN and my favorite Ducati. Not all sold here in the US, but none will ever be sold to me.
For those who don't know, Volkswagen's brands are:
VW, Audi, Porsche, Skoda, Seat, Bentley, Lamborghini, Bugatti, Scania, MAN and my favorite Ducati. Not all sold here in the US, but none will ever be sold to me.
Dieselgate provided the Quotation of the Month:
Christopher Grundler, director of the Office of Transportation and Air Quality, acknowledged that the agency had failed to detect the cheating in the first place — it was found by the International Council on Clean Transportation in conjunction with a laboratory at West Virginia University.
“We’ve learned from this episode, for sure,” he said. “We wish we had found it sooner.”
A deep underlying part of the causation of this debacle is that the regulators set up a system that could be gamed. The regulators set up a system that depended on corporate integrity, an item that seems to be in short supply.
Christopher Grundler, director of the Office of Transportation and Air Quality, acknowledged that the agency had failed to detect the cheating in the first place — it was found by the International Council on Clean Transportation in conjunction with a laboratory at West Virginia University.
“We’ve learned from this episode, for sure,” he said. “We wish we had found it sooner.”
A deep underlying part of the causation of this debacle is that the regulators set up a system that could be gamed. The regulators set up a system that depended on corporate integrity, an item that seems to be in short supply.
2
Volkswagen has lost billions in share price and sales and will lose many more billions in future sales, lawsuits and fines… if it still exists. It was a gigantic deception. And they are blaming this on a couple of rogue software engineers and managers?
This was an incredibly stupid fraud and its sheer idiocy boggles the mind.
This was an incredibly stupid fraud and its sheer idiocy boggles the mind.
2
“Do you really think that a chief executive had time for the inner functioning of engine software?”
When the purpose of the software is to disable the emissions control equipment on millions of vehicles, yes we do Mr Muller.
The faR better question is "dO MYOU MREALLY THINK
When the purpose of the software is to disable the emissions control equipment on millions of vehicles, yes we do Mr Muller.
The faR better question is "dO MYOU MREALLY THINK
1
Having spent many years in the software industry, it is very easy for me to believe this started out as, basically, a "hack". Very possibly a single engineer correctly noticed that the problem was actually to pass the EPA test, not to produce a clean car, and wondered if she could do that via software. When it worked, there was probably an instant "engineer's high" of finding a very clever solution to a problem. But then the solution took on a life of its own, and there was the question of what to do now... sometimes you get into a situation you can't gracefully get out of.
1
You're all huffy and puffy about VW's egregious deception and environmental attack and want names named. I couldn't agree more, but GM killed over 100 people and, as far as I know, we know very little about culpabilty, no one went to jail, and GM paid a pittance of a fine. Sadly, the pattern will continue.
2
The best course of events would be for VW management to offer to buy all the cars from existing owners at the market rates that prevailed immediately prior to the revelations about the doctored engines. The company can then move forward, having made fair restitution, at least in part. What VW is going to do with 11 million used autos with defeat-device-outfitted engines is another issue.
1
Export them to South America, Africa, and Asia.
How many millions did Winterkorn walk away with, I wonder?
1
The Germans should train some of the masses flowing in from Syria to retrofit the fraudulent cars with gas engines. Create a whole division to work on the 11 million vehicle "mistake". Certainly there are some engineers coming in as well that might be able to come up with a real fix for the issue. Why was VW making diesl cars again anyway, I thought they learned that lesson in the 80s.
1
The Sargeant Schultz act ain't cutting it: "I see nothing, I hear nothing, and I say nothing!"
Optics aside -- Daily Show? Larry? -- nobody is buying this act.
Executives must go to jail just like poor people who get busted with an ounce.
Optics aside -- Daily Show? Larry? -- nobody is buying this act.
Executives must go to jail just like poor people who get busted with an ounce.
1
If everybody comes clean and the whole truth comes out, it won't be just VW, and the US Congress will be shown complicit.
Cheat devices have been endemic in the industry, in the US too and in big ways.
Congress wrote the laws very carefully so that would not be a crime. If the government catches such cheat devices, they are not crimes, and get only fines. The government DID catch such devices, and the fines were not even very large.
Now why did Congress do that? Why did we set up our inspection system to allow that when we catch it?
Yes, let's have the WHOLE truth come out, and change this, but it won't be just about VW when we are done.
Cheat devices have been endemic in the industry, in the US too and in big ways.
Congress wrote the laws very carefully so that would not be a crime. If the government catches such cheat devices, they are not crimes, and get only fines. The government DID catch such devices, and the fines were not even very large.
Now why did Congress do that? Why did we set up our inspection system to allow that when we catch it?
Yes, let's have the WHOLE truth come out, and change this, but it won't be just about VW when we are done.
11
Obviously, this is Obama's fault, he had the EPA secretly install the firmware, who then "discovered" it, so that he could then ban diesels to further his radical environmental agenda of forcing clean air on American citizens.
7
The software engineers were only following orders.
I forget; who founded VW again?
I forget; who founded VW again?
13
I beg to disagree. The VW top may have been largely ignorant.
There are many organizations where the "suits" look down on the technology and only want to become involved when it is really important. Safety issues might draw their attention as many car companies have gone through costly recalls by now, but never before have environmental issues been more than a minor irritant.
Also, it is far from clear that this was an extensive software modification. It may as well be that the toplevel toolset for finetuning the car offered enough options for a single guy to accomplish this.
There are many organizations where the "suits" look down on the technology and only want to become involved when it is really important. Safety issues might draw their attention as many car companies have gone through costly recalls by now, but never before have environmental issues been more than a minor irritant.
Also, it is far from clear that this was an extensive software modification. It may as well be that the toplevel toolset for finetuning the car offered enough options for a single guy to accomplish this.
2
It is completely possible for an engineer to accomplish a lot with code (after all, being able to query the status of each one of the incredible number of sensors found on modern cars, would be a lot of fun).
But that is very different from getting it past several hundred sets of eyeballs and screens who scrutinize every bit of code to make sure that it won't cause a failure, or a recall. And if you assume one manager for every 10 engineers, and a similar structure moving up the chain, there would be at least 200 people who knew.
If only a couple of hundred people within a very large organization knew and could keep it a secret, that is about as believable as the defence offered during the Nuremberg trials.
A top level executives who is kept in the dark about serious drama on the ground floor (and for several years!) is either actively undermined, or is completely incompetent and if they were, the company wouldn't have become the top carmaker in the world.
In fact, not only did top management know, but most other car makers as well (or had very strong suspicions).
But that is very different from getting it past several hundred sets of eyeballs and screens who scrutinize every bit of code to make sure that it won't cause a failure, or a recall. And if you assume one manager for every 10 engineers, and a similar structure moving up the chain, there would be at least 200 people who knew.
If only a couple of hundred people within a very large organization knew and could keep it a secret, that is about as believable as the defence offered during the Nuremberg trials.
A top level executives who is kept in the dark about serious drama on the ground floor (and for several years!) is either actively undermined, or is completely incompetent and if they were, the company wouldn't have become the top carmaker in the world.
In fact, not only did top management know, but most other car makers as well (or had very strong suspicions).
NO NO NO! The GOP's got it backward. They shouldn't be grilled in Congress and sanctioned. VW should get a GOP award for decreasing the power of the EPA. Hmmm gee, what was the third Cabinet post? Never mind. Russia should be given a reverse carbon tax--an award paid only by US working people for each pound of CO 2 they pump into our air. After all, global climate change is a fiction of the left. Right? Excuse me, I do get my right and left mixed up here and there. Why is Congress missing the opportunity to award VW a prize in the form of tax-free land for current and future manufacturing plants, again paid for by middle class? taxpayers. C'mon guys! Get with it! Where are your trickled own tee shirts and the ones that say GLOBAL WARMING IS A BIG LIE. Send them around so the people--GOP people that is--can speak up and thank Congress for lowering taxes on the 1% and raising the CO 2 levels in the country. So many good works, so little time. Oh and while Congress is at it, hey can investigate VW's policy oh equal pay and healthcare for women. Get rid of those nasty family planning payments. And put the VW females only clinics 300 miles away from the nearest town. Right! (far right that is). Let's teach those commie socialist sex fiend liberals a good lesson! Oh and teach them our new song, We Shall Undercome. You already know the melody.
2
To paraphrase Sgt Schultz of Hogan's Heroes" VW saw nothing, nothing about those faulty emissions tests.
A NY times article today notes that a man was just arrested in NY for possession of forged emissions stickers and it caught my eye that he is under arrest, charged with a felony carrying 7 years in prison. Seems that he is being treated much harsher than VW for a much lesser crime. Will VW execs be extradited to NY for trial and imprisonment? They are responsible for thousands of fraudulent emissions results and guilt is already admitted.
17
Yes, I am outraged, Yet know from personal experience, These are excellent driving vehicles, a bit pricy etc.
I wonder if adding the pre blower to the turbo and increasing the air density as well as shorting the fuel injection period would not only create cleaner burn and additional performance?
Perhaps this compressor might sufficiently correct the emission as well as rewarding current owners with greater efficiency and more zip when required?
I wonder if adding the pre blower to the turbo and increasing the air density as well as shorting the fuel injection period would not only create cleaner burn and additional performance?
Perhaps this compressor might sufficiently correct the emission as well as rewarding current owners with greater efficiency and more zip when required?
Fools pure fools.
No - "fools" indicates an unfortunate deficiency in mental capacity. This was caused by a "for profit mentality" - irresponsible, premeditated criminal greed.
It is absolutely essential for corporate wrong-doing to be blamed on _specific individuals_ and those individuals should be punished. This did not happen in the financial scandals in the US and it looks like VW is trying for it to not happen to them.
5
Remember Scooter Libby. They'd be happy to find a Scooter or two.
It is inconceivable a company of the size and standing like VW pulling a stunt like this and hoping to get away with it. What were they thinking??? Of their next bonus?
To try to make the world believe that the bonus driven upper management was unaware of the manipulation is rise-able.
To contemplate the dissolution of a fine company through hubris of a few misguided managers is heartbreaking . Too many lives depend on it.
To try to make the world believe that the bonus driven upper management was unaware of the manipulation is rise-able.
To contemplate the dissolution of a fine company through hubris of a few misguided managers is heartbreaking . Too many lives depend on it.
1
We have seen that executives are never held accountable.
Martin Winterkorn, the former CEO, is reported to be receiving a $67 million (€60 million) golden parachute separation package.
Now THAT is punishment! Poor guy won't get to come to work any more and will have to spend the rest of his days figuring out how to spend all that money. Life is suffering.
Martin Winterkorn, the former CEO, is reported to be receiving a $67 million (€60 million) golden parachute separation package.
Now THAT is punishment! Poor guy won't get to come to work any more and will have to spend the rest of his days figuring out how to spend all that money. Life is suffering.
4
"VW needs to COME CLEAN...."....pun intended?!
1
What is even more concerning is a report on Bloomberg yesterday that these same VW diesel cars are selling very well on the used market. People are now aware that these engines are far from 'clean', that diesel engines create substantially more pollution than petrol engines and yet they are still happy to buy them to save a few bucks on gas. Amazing!
19
Sorry Crozier, but diesel engines do not create more pollution than petrol engines. Only ones that have been designed to leave out the slight additional cost of urea systems that real clean diesels use, and that all other diesel manufacturers use. Even VW uses urea systems on many models and as far as has been reported these are clean. Reminds me very much of how Oldsmobile blew the American diesel market years ago for want of a cheap water separator device that all other diesels use, even today.
It's not amazing. It's simply capitalizing on an opportunity - capitalism at its finest. Surely you don't expect an environmental conscience to go along with that ideology.
Dollar Store Diesels. Coming soon to a mall near your. You gotta love American initiative. How long did that take? A week?
Dollar Store Diesels. Coming soon to a mall near your. You gotta love American initiative. How long did that take? A week?
Not only were the buyers of VW diesels duped, all Americans suffered with the noxious chemicals these machines spewed. I owned two Passat wagons while living in Europe and always said they were the best cars I ever owned. Solid, dependable, great to drive.....because....they were spewing poison! How can VW repay those who bought their machines? They should buy those cars back from the owners at the price the owners paid...that's the only way if they expect to do business in the US ever again.
2
Jay Leno, appearing on The Nightly Show yesterday, made a great observation: "the Germans came clean pretty quickly because, for a German, the more important thing was not to admit they they were guilty of deceit but that they were smart enough to be able to develop the software that outsmarted the systems to monitor emissions." While meant to be funny, there's a lot of truth in that observation. OF COURSE the top people knew about this outrageous crime. Let's face it, VW cars are good but they're not THAT GREAT and honestly, after what they did, any conscientious buyer should look elsewhere. No wonder their stock dropped 30% and it should - for a company which purported to pride itself on responsible environmental policies and trustworthiness, they have forever broken their contract with the public - I don't think this can ever be fully repented, at least I would never buy their future claims nor their products (I'll just stick with my Mercedes, it's German and never breaks down).
6
How do you translate LaosKaro (ΛαοσΚαρο) in German? 3:)
Here is it what will happen: nothing. Within 6 months, we will be reading stories about how VW stock is rising and an incredible "comeback" is in the making. There is still money to made.
1
If no one goes to jail, just as no banksters have gone to jail, how can we lowly types conclude that we live, in any way, under a rule of law. And what incentive do we have for living lawfully ourselves?
None.
None.
6
Dare I say it: Just following orders.
1
A native Californian living in Paris last year, I lived through the worst smog I have ever endured. One day the headline read "Paris air dirtier than Bejing". I remember telling my heighbor: "You need to clean up your automobile carborants like we did in California". VW diesels were everywhere- probably 1/3 of all cars in Paris. I was given diesels as rentals twice-- good performance and cheaper fuel. Now it turns out that every one of those diesels jamming the Périphérique was polluting as much as ten cars. At least 10 times the NOxide. The air was often toxic, but the French should be thankful that the that's all Germany did to them. They could have closed their ATM's like they did in Greece, where you can't breathe either.
3
Not to be contrarian, but having spent my career in very large corporations, I can see how a CEO may not have known.
He may be guilty, or he may simply have thought that VW had some genius engineers. It's possible the division heads were given the goal "reduce emissions on diesel," and ran with it (taking their bonuses along the way).
He may be guilty, or he may simply have thought that VW had some genius engineers. It's possible the division heads were given the goal "reduce emissions on diesel," and ran with it (taking their bonuses along the way).
14
Interesting anecdote here from Paul Eisenstein which supports what you are saying:
http://www.thedetroitbureau.com/2015/10/just-following-orders-who-was-re...
http://www.thedetroitbureau.com/2015/10/just-following-orders-who-was-re...
Even Mr. Horn, under a barrage of questions, admitted that he finds it hard to believe that no one at the top knew. If that were true then we must believe the unbelievable, and that is a few engineers did this, not to make millions from automobile sales, but they did this to keep their jobs. If it wasn't done for corporate rewards, it is simply not credible to think someone did this to keep their job. Somebody further up the ladder approved the device especially when one considers that VW ran a strictly old-school, top-down company.
34
Smug self righteous executives. Say it ain't so.
It could be worse. They could be flying in on a corporate jet asking for a bailout (Knock on wood)
1
Let's not beat around the bush: VW needs to remove affected vehicles from roads the world over as soon as possible in the interest of the environment AND refund affected owners 100% of purchase price including applicable fees and taxes. No mea culpas or vague promises of eventual (as in a year or longer) "fixes" that also degrade performance and fuel economy are sufficient, let alone acceptable to affected users such as myself.
4
Once again the highly paid corporate executives claim they were incompetent and incapable of doing their jobs. Software engineers may be creative but unless they are solo cowboy types, someone was approving what they designed.
4
At least the marketplace will punish management when their performance bonuses disappear along with their jobs and probably the company. The US does a miserable job of holding executives accountable for criminal deeds but maybe Germany will do so.
7
Not likely with so many jobs involved, a shareholding by on of the states, and an industry of such vital importance to Germany.
I have read in several places that American VW dealers have pressed to keep Mr. Horn as the head of US operations.
VW Germany clearly is a corrupt organization.
After watching excerpts from Mr. Horn's testimony one can only conclude that though VW America and its dealers may not be corrupt they certainly are stupid.
VW Germany clearly is a corrupt organization.
After watching excerpts from Mr. Horn's testimony one can only conclude that though VW America and its dealers may not be corrupt they certainly are stupid.
2
If individual executives were prosecuted and served time in jail, most of the public would be willing to continue to support the company. The employees who were not part of the scandal could continue running and working for the company and have public support.
Why are low income people who commit crimes liable for their wrong doing but executives are not.
Another concern is that the NYT does not chastise US companies with criminal charges as strongly as non-US companies. What about giving JPMorgan Chase a similiar headline?
Why are low income people who commit crimes liable for their wrong doing but executives are not.
Another concern is that the NYT does not chastise US companies with criminal charges as strongly as non-US companies. What about giving JPMorgan Chase a similiar headline?
17
I would think that what VW did is illegal in this country. They seemed to falsify state tests, is this not fraud? I suspect it is going to take years for legal action to take place. The victims, besides the owners of these vehicles and the employees of all of the dealers is the hidden pollution of the environment. I would hope that immediate legal action occurs so that all affected VW owners are able to sell their car back to VW at the initial sales price, including sales tax.
But even if this were not an election year, I doubt this will happen.
But even if this were not an election year, I doubt this will happen.
3
I applaud the EPA and CARB for having the tenacity to pursue this to its eventual discovery. This is great work.
That said, it was striking that the EPA stated these cars are safe to drive (and that Mr. Horn and other VW representatives conveniently refer to). They may not be less safe for their drivers, but they were and continue to be unsafe for the general public especially in urban areas that are already overloaded.
The EPA's assurances of safety are meant to aquiesce the public which is understandable, but they know full well how these pollutant affect public health. At least in their private deliberations with VW I hope the EPA is very demanding of the need to fix this mess asap.
As a senior engineer, and a VW and Audi owner I still shake my head when I see what an impossible position they put themselves into. It is completely unrealistic to come up with a fix in any short amount of time without incurring massive costs or exposure to legal claims. And I am only thinking of the .5 million vehicles with this flaw. There are another 10.5 million elsewhere in the world.
That said, it was striking that the EPA stated these cars are safe to drive (and that Mr. Horn and other VW representatives conveniently refer to). They may not be less safe for their drivers, but they were and continue to be unsafe for the general public especially in urban areas that are already overloaded.
The EPA's assurances of safety are meant to aquiesce the public which is understandable, but they know full well how these pollutant affect public health. At least in their private deliberations with VW I hope the EPA is very demanding of the need to fix this mess asap.
As a senior engineer, and a VW and Audi owner I still shake my head when I see what an impossible position they put themselves into. It is completely unrealistic to come up with a fix in any short amount of time without incurring massive costs or exposure to legal claims. And I am only thinking of the .5 million vehicles with this flaw. There are another 10.5 million elsewhere in the world.
51
It is too simplistic to say that the autos are unsafe because of the defeat device. No need to alarm VW diesel owners. Moreover, whether they are a hazard to people in urban areas depends on a lot more than just emissions. The defeat code improved performance and gas mileage. The macro effect of those improvements must be netted against the harmful effect of higher NOX emissions. There's also the avoided alternatives - a gasoline engine, with its lesser mileage and different emissions. Maybe the net effect is minor, maybe it is major, but it isn't zero. You can certainly look at the effect of the defeat device in isolation, or express it as a laboratory test, controlled for all things being equal, but that is a mere academic exercise because all things are not equal. Now, none of this gets VW off the hook. They blew it and will pay. But VW owners need not feel that every time they go to the store they are endangering their neighbors.
Will the owners of USED VWs be forced to have the software updated ? Hiow far does this go?
How many years did this go on? How many models were involved and how many meeelion cars were altered? This is the tip of the iceberg, it is symptomatic of a corporate wide culture of cheating. I would look at everything VW did: Their emission statements for all cars, their safety claims, their accounting, everything. When regulators lift the rocks, all kinds of nasty things will come scurrying out.
4
I do not see any benefit for being so judgmental and harsh in judging VW. For years, they made quality, economical cars, yet for a small mistake they are basically being treated as an outcast.
1
@javierg:
If this were "a small mistake," they would not be treated as outcasts. This was not a small mistake. This is fraud, fraud on a large scale, fraud in international commerce, intentional deception, lying to many governments the world over -- the defeat device was not a mistake; it was deliberate fraud, and everyone involved in that fraud deserves to serve time in prison. This is not a corporate person "being treated as an outcast;" this is people, many of them, lying to customers, claiming certain desirable characteristics for their vehicles then delivering vehicles that deliberately sacrificed emissions control for mileage.
That is fraud, not "a small mistake."
If this were "a small mistake," they would not be treated as outcasts. This was not a small mistake. This is fraud, fraud on a large scale, fraud in international commerce, intentional deception, lying to many governments the world over -- the defeat device was not a mistake; it was deliberate fraud, and everyone involved in that fraud deserves to serve time in prison. This is not a corporate person "being treated as an outcast;" this is people, many of them, lying to customers, claiming certain desirable characteristics for their vehicles then delivering vehicles that deliberately sacrificed emissions control for mileage.
That is fraud, not "a small mistake."
62
It was not a mistake. It was a willing effort by the engineers, quality inspectors, and others to cheat an emissions test. It must have been ordered by senior management. There is simply no other way. Even if Sr Mgmt is not "responsible" directly then they are at least incompetent. When this kind of thing happens in Pharma, people go to jail. Why? It results in the early death of Americans, because of cars spewing out pollutants.
1
Really, a small mistake? This is fraud, sir. That is a crime not an error.
2
I DON'T BLAME VW BECAUSE . . .
...all involved in this situation "were just taking orders from the higher ups.'
...all involved in this situation "were just taking orders from the higher ups.'
How is it this fraud wasn't discovered or exposed by other car producers? You'd think they'd be really, really interested in how VW managed to pull off this supposed diesel miracle.
10
Indeed. One wonders how many of them have been doing the same or similar.
This being the handiwork of a few software engineers makes no sense. They have the least to gain from certifying that emission levels are low - they did not design the Engines causing the pollution.
2
Hypocrisy, thy name is Germany.
5
Too late to come clean, unless they can un-kill the dozens of deaths that 2 different scientific estimates say their illegal emissions resulted in. First, everyone involved needs to go to prison, and then let VW attempt, and fail, to "come clean."
3
Looks like the execs are ready to throw a few software engineers under the VW bus.
74
Make that the VW Microbus.
"a couple" of software engineers ... nice to know the tech-heads have such power and autonomy in this otherwise well-run corporation.
I realize the issue here goes beyond the excess nitrogen oxides that these cars produce. The issue is fraud committed by Volkswagen against the government, its consumers, and even its shareholders, and who was responsible. But a second issue is, how to best mitigate the excess nitrogen oxide?
The most difficult cars to retrofit to bring into compliance will be the first generation cars without Selective Catalytic Reduction. Those cars will need to have that equipment retrofitted to the cars to come into compliance. An expensive prospect.
I suspect that the amount of excess nitrogen oxides these cars produce is small compared to the nitrogen oxide produced at a one or two old coal fired midwestern power plants. If Volkswagen were to buy a couple of these old power plants, shut them down, and replace the electricity with clean power produced by wind and solar, the TDi pollution would be offset. And the cars could be left, unmodified, to live out their remaining useful lives before they ultimately go to the crusher.
Emissions trading is an accepted part of any cap and trade regime. And the innocent car owners would not have to worry about how a major retrofit to their cars would affect their driveability and performance.
The most difficult cars to retrofit to bring into compliance will be the first generation cars without Selective Catalytic Reduction. Those cars will need to have that equipment retrofitted to the cars to come into compliance. An expensive prospect.
I suspect that the amount of excess nitrogen oxides these cars produce is small compared to the nitrogen oxide produced at a one or two old coal fired midwestern power plants. If Volkswagen were to buy a couple of these old power plants, shut them down, and replace the electricity with clean power produced by wind and solar, the TDi pollution would be offset. And the cars could be left, unmodified, to live out their remaining useful lives before they ultimately go to the crusher.
Emissions trading is an accepted part of any cap and trade regime. And the innocent car owners would not have to worry about how a major retrofit to their cars would affect their driveability and performance.
24
I haven't noticed too many of the Republicans who now control Congress eager to set up "a cap-and-trade regime." And even the Republicans need to breathe clean air, even here in Utah, which is even more under Republican control than Washington, D.C.
When you are an inner-city kid with asthma in Baltimore or Boston, emissions traded with a power plant thousands of miles away will do little to protect your health from the VWs passing under your bedroom window.
How would you compare the NOx output of a non compliant TDi Volkswagen to the NOx output of buses and trucks that routinely pass under the same window?
2
What everyone needs to understand is that 1) VW bolding claimed they had a technology superior to all others in clean technology and 2) emissions performance is an absolute key metric for any engine program. When VW's head of powertain engineering was told the performance (as happens in every at company), it had to trigger a major review and decision...to cheat. I was a senior executive in powertain operations and clearly know that ther is NO WAY this was some rogue engineers. The performance of an engine (mileage, power, emissions, reliability, and other factors) are paramount. VW publicly took a different path than all other manufacturers, proclaimed it an innovation, that found out it doesn't work...so absolutely top executives made the decision to cheat rather than accept the huge embrassment and reengineering costs.
67
I guess I am one of the lucky ones, I traded in my 2011 Golf TDI for a leased 2015 GTI before the TDI SNAFU went public. I have owned a total of 14 VWs going back to a new 1968 Beetle purchased when I was in the Navy. You could say i was one of the people who drank VW's technical/performance superiority Koolaid on a regular basis.
The TDI fiasco makes VW's premium prices, technology, and honesty questionable to such a degree that the 2015 GTI is my last VW, when the lease ends I so does my driving VWs.
The TDI fiasco makes VW's premium prices, technology, and honesty questionable to such a degree that the 2015 GTI is my last VW, when the lease ends I so does my driving VWs.
For too long regulations have been focused on each pollutant one at a time. The air pollutants are not independent of each other, nor are they of equal weight.
1) When there is excess air in an engine's fuel mixture, the hydrocarbon exhaust drops dramatically; NOX increases.
2) When there is excess fuel, the hydrocarbons rise and the NOX falls.
3) When the ignited burned mixture temperature is high, NOX increases and the engine efficiency potential increases.
4) When engine efficiency increases,CO2 per unit of mechanical output decreases (Better fuel economy.)
5) Diesel engines are most efficient, but produce much NOX when running efficiently.
6) The real irritants in smog are nitrosamines. "Nitrosamines are chemical compounds of the chemical structure R1N(-R2)-N=O, that is, a nitroso group bonded to an amine. Most nitrosamines are carcinogenic." Wikipedia
7) Ozone and NOX alone are relatively low toxicity. Ozone air pollution at ppb, easy to measure, is a surrogate for nitrosamines, difficult to measure at ppt.
8) Nitrosamines are formed from air pollutant hydrocarbons, NOX and ultraviolet sunlight. When the hydrocarbons are consumed, the excess NOX creates Bourbon colored skies, but are only mildly toxic.
9) The relative loss of life expectancy (man-years of life lost) from global climate change (Sandy, Katrina, Bangladesh flooding, Sub-Sahara drought,....), from a few weeks/months of life lost due to bronchitis/COPD/.. need to be balanced.
Has no one asked this question?
1) When there is excess air in an engine's fuel mixture, the hydrocarbon exhaust drops dramatically; NOX increases.
2) When there is excess fuel, the hydrocarbons rise and the NOX falls.
3) When the ignited burned mixture temperature is high, NOX increases and the engine efficiency potential increases.
4) When engine efficiency increases,CO2 per unit of mechanical output decreases (Better fuel economy.)
5) Diesel engines are most efficient, but produce much NOX when running efficiently.
6) The real irritants in smog are nitrosamines. "Nitrosamines are chemical compounds of the chemical structure R1N(-R2)-N=O, that is, a nitroso group bonded to an amine. Most nitrosamines are carcinogenic." Wikipedia
7) Ozone and NOX alone are relatively low toxicity. Ozone air pollution at ppb, easy to measure, is a surrogate for nitrosamines, difficult to measure at ppt.
8) Nitrosamines are formed from air pollutant hydrocarbons, NOX and ultraviolet sunlight. When the hydrocarbons are consumed, the excess NOX creates Bourbon colored skies, but are only mildly toxic.
9) The relative loss of life expectancy (man-years of life lost) from global climate change (Sandy, Katrina, Bangladesh flooding, Sub-Sahara drought,....), from a few weeks/months of life lost due to bronchitis/COPD/.. need to be balanced.
Has no one asked this question?
9
Excellent points. California CARB is up in arms about localized smog (a by-product of NOX) from diesels. But diesels are significantly more efficient than gas engines, have a lower carbon footprint and thus have less effect on global climate change.
We need to get the polluting cars off the road NOW -- either by VW removing or fixing them. Waiting until some unknown time "next year" is not enough. They remain a continuing health hazard, spewing out 40 times + of NOX limits. I would like to see all VW cars banned from sale until this problem is fixed, and then let's see how long this takes. Plus, of course, they should pay all the penalties/fines already on the books.
15
No need to ban sales, who would buy any products from this rogue company?
2
Your gasoline engine emits significantly more hydrocarbon greenhouse gases than the inherently more efficient diesel, which, however, emits more NOX. So which is the bigger problem? Local NOX pollution or global greenhouse gas emissions?
• Extent of Intellectual Corruption
An inescapable fact is that lack of competence, integrity, compliance, and/or transparency at any level of an organization has never been shown to have been confined to that level. Moral pathogens propagate.
An inescapable fact is that lack of competence, integrity, compliance, and/or transparency at any level of an organization has never been shown to have been confined to that level. Moral pathogens propagate.
3
It may be that engineers lied to higher-ups to cover up the fact they could not deliver on their promises of a clean diesel. But the appointment of Muller, an insider, makes it look like the Board is looking to limit culpability. How could the Board be sure Muller was unaware of the cheating before the investigation was complete? And his response "Do you think a chief executive had time for the inner functioning of engine software?" is doubly troubling. First, the tone suggests that only a simpleton would question Winterkorn's innocence, that is a question that needed no investigation. Second, the implication that Winterkorn would have had to work his way through lines of code to know about the cheating seems like an attempt to reframe the question so as to mislead. Here's a way he could have found out without reading code: "Mr. Winterkorn, the only way this Jetta will pass is if we use cheating software". Here's another: "OK, Mr. Winterkorn, we'll program it so it cheats." You know who Muller sounds like? The VW engineers who told the researchers who found the cheat last year that they didn't know how to test cars.
12
There is no question in anyone's mind that this is a corporate wide problem there. VW used to make cars that were unsafe and fought tooth and nail against recall efforts. Very interesting articles in the NYTimes and overseas have described an inward facing management structure, so this is not at all surprising.
One thing I'd like to know is this - in virtually every journalist's road test of the gasoline engine VW's, they have commented that the cars feel "more powerful and get better fuel economy than advertised".
So, when will our regulators start testing the gas engine VW's as well?
One thing I'd like to know is this - in virtually every journalist's road test of the gasoline engine VW's, they have commented that the cars feel "more powerful and get better fuel economy than advertised".
So, when will our regulators start testing the gas engine VW's as well?
7
If the House Committee on Energy and Commerce wanted to have someone testify about the VW emission scandal and get no information the best person would be the CEO from VW US. Since the VW is developed in Germany all of the knowledge on the details of the emission cheating is in Germany. The US CEO will only know what he is told by his German Executive colleagues. From VW Germany's perspective they could not have sent a better person to testify, Someone who knows nothing (and was told nothing) but will portray the image they want to the US House committee.
6
Some poor Scooter Libby take the fall.
The only real way to stop this kind of thing is strip all the high-level executives at VW of everything they've "earned" during this fraud. I don't think German law allows that, American certainly does not.
Absent criminal charges, which will be hard ... all the executives walk laughing to the bank ... just like all the financial fraudsters from the bubble have, in the US.
And for that matter nobody has gone to jail from GM over the ignition key cover-up, which killed more than 100.
We can't put corporations in jail, and we don't put corporate executives in jail. We don't even fine them, take away their ill-gotten gains.
That's why they do this kind of thing -- they get paid to do it.
The only real way to stop this kind of thing is strip all the high-level executives at VW of everything they've "earned" during this fraud. I don't think German law allows that, American certainly does not.
Absent criminal charges, which will be hard ... all the executives walk laughing to the bank ... just like all the financial fraudsters from the bubble have, in the US.
And for that matter nobody has gone to jail from GM over the ignition key cover-up, which killed more than 100.
We can't put corporations in jail, and we don't put corporate executives in jail. We don't even fine them, take away their ill-gotten gains.
That's why they do this kind of thing -- they get paid to do it.
13
Mr. Horn was, I certainly hope, well aware that in speaking before a congressional committee that he is under oath.
No one really believes that a few rogue software engineers managed to pull this off on their own. This was a complicated effort that spread across VW diesel cars sold in many countries. Perhaps Mr. Horn was not in on the deception. But if it turns out that he did have prior knowledge of it, then I sincerely hope that the US Attorney's Office brings the full weight of justice to bear on him for perjury.
No one really believes that a few rogue software engineers managed to pull this off on their own. This was a complicated effort that spread across VW diesel cars sold in many countries. Perhaps Mr. Horn was not in on the deception. But if it turns out that he did have prior knowledge of it, then I sincerely hope that the US Attorney's Office brings the full weight of justice to bear on him for perjury.
3
I am sure Chris Christie believes it. After all, his rogue assistants, working right outside his office, pulled off the Bridgegate caper, and he knew nothing. If you believe him.
2
Whether it is VW, GM and its ignition issues, major banks and falsifications of SWIFT tickets for Iranian banks, Honda and airbags, and on and on and on: until leaders, CEOs and managers are arrested, indicted and tried for criminal activity companies will just keep doing it. A fine is nothing to these thieves and "leaders" of the financial world. If they know they have a genuine risk of going to prison they will stop much of this type of behavior. They don't care about fines. They will care about spending years in prisons, even minimum security prisons. Until that is done, fines are just going to be another cost of doing business.
3
Maybe if someone can go to jail for 28 years for selling contaminated peanut butter, this time a few jail sentences for polluting the air will be handed out. I won't hold my breath
3
What I still do not understand is how General Motors got away with killing 124 people, injuring hundreds more, covered their tracks for 10 plus years and basically walked away with fines and protection from lawsuits for the knowing negligence resulting in death and injury.
But, VW is being nearly crucified for the manipulating how emissions are bypassed during testing, without a complete investigation on how many vehicles this actually impacts....remember up to know the media has only reported how many "potential" vehicles that could be effected, and not a hard factual count....
I think some people really need to evaluate their own thinking process first before jumping on the band wagon ....
But, VW is being nearly crucified for the manipulating how emissions are bypassed during testing, without a complete investigation on how many vehicles this actually impacts....remember up to know the media has only reported how many "potential" vehicles that could be effected, and not a hard factual count....
I think some people really need to evaluate their own thinking process first before jumping on the band wagon ....
5
I agree with your first paragraph. But the fact that GM got away with murder should not excuse VW getting away with fraud.
We need to revisit the GM case, which also seems to have involved lying, if not actual fraud -- but we should not let VW off the hook.
We need to revisit the GM case, which also seems to have involved lying, if not actual fraud -- but we should not let VW off the hook.
They're hardly being crucified. They are being criticised. Heavily. Do you think they would be investigating without the criticism? What have they done for more than the past year when they were being questioned. They seem to have not even investigated.
In other crises, we've allowed the executives to get out of jail free. Unfortunately, it looks like we're going the other way here. It's not that I don't think they should be handing out jail time. It's that 11 million cars are out there, sprewing. VW seems to think they haven't had enough time to work on a solution, but they've had since May of 2014. In the absence of any communication with customers, the papers have wildly speculated that the correction will impact mileage and performance and this view is becoming entrenched. The evidence doesn't support the conclusion, the problem is that it doesn't support any conclusion. For those who don't know this, the Diesel community is rather irresponsible with regard to emissions, and the rumor of performance and economy impacts is enough for them to raise the rebel flag and refuse the recall when it finally becomes available. The longer VW dilly dallies, the deeper their customer's ignorance grows, and the less likely that these cars will ever be dealt with. And the EPA has zero power to compel customer compliance, that's in the hands of the states. Big VW TDI states like Texas and Florida have weak compliance rules for emissions. The earlier VW brings a fix to EPA, the sooner the real problem can be addressed.
1
I've read comments in other forums by VW owners who say they are not going to comply with the recall. Once the recall has been out for a while States should require to verify that the repair has been completed before license tags are renewed.
Fines on consumers who refuse to fix their cars, or simply stating that they failed emissions testing would make consumers deal with their cars, on VW's dime of course. The states have to meet minimum requirements for emissions tests that meet or exceed levels set by EPA. If we fined VW $1 million a day per defective car on the streets, I bet they could pull their collective heads out of their arses and find a fix, or be made to replace the vehicles with electric cars or hybrids, since VW clearly stole from other clean car companies by flagrant and complete fraud. "German fraud" has replaced the phrase "German engineering", and I bet this VW attitude can be found in other German car companies and we are going to find out. For me I am even boycotting their beer because who knows what is in that stuff. Diesel?
In a company the size of Volkswagen, if you're going to do something that's against the rules, the fewer people that know the better. We don't know who or how many knew about this but, in my opinion, there weren't very many involved. That's about the only way this got to play out as long as it did. To use the word "handful" requires a description, from the Editorial Board, of just how many, or how few, constitutes their idea of a "handful". I suspect that there were more people in the Industry, outside of Volkswagen's own people, that "knew", based on their ability to put 2 and 2 together and suspect that something wasn't quite right than people inside Volkswagen who had the true facts about this deception.
Another corporate criminal. Herr Horn is not believable. The first words out of his mouth when this story broke is "we screwed up." No, they lied to their customers, lied to regulators, cheated, took money under false pretenses, lied to the US government, and broke the law. Horn knew about the cheating more than a year ago and said nothing, but now says VW "screwed up." He should be charged with crimes, jailed, and then deported when his time is served.
3
As an engineer, I feel compelled to take exception to the line "...and the blow to VW's reputation for quality engineering". It seems the engineering was exceptionally good, as it took a really long time for anyone to catch on. Terribly immoral, but exceptionally good.
7
Should the American people trust the auto industry? Today, it's easier to answer no. Consumers deserve accountability. One way to achieve accountability is to mandate technology that provides scientific evidence. Such technology is readily available by utilizing event data recorders (EDRs) and a NHTSA regulation is forthcoming. However, in federal docket submissions automakers collectively oppose mandating EDRs via a Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard (FMVSS). They argue it is not necessary and too costly. NHTSA believes that EDR information can be vital to an agency investigation seeking to determine if there is a safety defect in vehicles that are being driven by consumers on the road and to agency efforts to access the performance of advanced safety technologies for possible future regulatory action. Time will tell if we end-up with a new safety standard or a whittled-down regulation.
3
Many folks who bought some Porsche models from the late '90s through 2008 will recognize this attitude of denial. Those cars left the factory with a defect -- the dreaded intermediate shaft failure -- that could render the engine useless and give the owner a bill of $15,000 or more for a replacement. In some cases, this was as much or more than the car was worth.
Even as customers were bringing their cars to dealers and Porsche technicians were tearing down engines to reveal this recurring problem, the factory continued to pump out more engines with the same faulty parts and put them in cars sold to unwitting customers. When victims complained, Porsche would sometimes provide partial reimbursement and sometimes not. No recalls or technical bulletins were issued to help owners. No public admissions were made. Only after Porsche was dragged into court in a class action did the company grudgingly agree to extend the warranties, but only on certain cars for a limited time period. Even then, Porsche admitted no guilt.
At least the owners of the VW diesels can still propel their cars down the road. When the Porsche engines fail and the owners can't afford the big bucks for repairs, the cars can be converted into little more than very expensive lawn planters.
Even as customers were bringing their cars to dealers and Porsche technicians were tearing down engines to reveal this recurring problem, the factory continued to pump out more engines with the same faulty parts and put them in cars sold to unwitting customers. When victims complained, Porsche would sometimes provide partial reimbursement and sometimes not. No recalls or technical bulletins were issued to help owners. No public admissions were made. Only after Porsche was dragged into court in a class action did the company grudgingly agree to extend the warranties, but only on certain cars for a limited time period. Even then, Porsche admitted no guilt.
At least the owners of the VW diesels can still propel their cars down the road. When the Porsche engines fail and the owners can't afford the big bucks for repairs, the cars can be converted into little more than very expensive lawn planters.
6
So we're supposed to believe that some lower-down rouge engineer at VW decided to install this cheating device which, if they got caught, would be so catastrophic as it has been.
Think. What would be the motivation of such a person? What does he have to gain? He's not in a position to profit personally, particularly, if VW is able to cheat the emissions standards.
No. It has to be someone very high up. I wonder if we'll ever find out who it was.
And if this is the only car company cheating, I will personally eat a Volkswagen.
Think. What would be the motivation of such a person? What does he have to gain? He's not in a position to profit personally, particularly, if VW is able to cheat the emissions standards.
No. It has to be someone very high up. I wonder if we'll ever find out who it was.
And if this is the only car company cheating, I will personally eat a Volkswagen.
5
Just don't buy a VW. If you do, you'll be paying for their cheating through higher prices on everything VW. Its happened with the other manufacturers when they've "messed-up" one way or another. They've got everyone coming and going!
I can't imagine that the Congressmen conducting the hearing would care. After all, Republicans don't like government regulation and they'd probably be happy if VW could get away with skirting the rules. What a joke.
1
Unless we see Winterkorn jailed, corporate murder of the planet will continue unabated with impunity.
In other words, corporate murder of the planet will continue unabated with impunity.
Dan Kravitz
In other words, corporate murder of the planet will continue unabated with impunity.
Dan Kravitz
3
Germany will deal with Winterkorn. He is their problem.
What happened to the once straight laced and obsessive Germans who took pride in their integrity? Who came out of their WWII sins/hubris and created one of the most successful manufacturing states the world has ever known?
I agree with the NYT - nothing at this kind of top down tightly wound company could have occurred without the approval and winks from the highest levels.
Do they think consumers are stupid? Obviously. Shame on VW.
I will never (ever) buy a VW in my lifetime. I doubt my kids will either. Fess up, name names - and own up.
Anything less is typical corporate greed ran amuck - the contagion of which seems to have started here in the USA.
I agree with the NYT - nothing at this kind of top down tightly wound company could have occurred without the approval and winks from the highest levels.
Do they think consumers are stupid? Obviously. Shame on VW.
I will never (ever) buy a VW in my lifetime. I doubt my kids will either. Fess up, name names - and own up.
Anything less is typical corporate greed ran amuck - the contagion of which seems to have started here in the USA.
1
And if there is proof that it was a "corporate" decision and "senior executives" were involved, what would the NYT suggest be done about it?
Missing from your editorial is the need for criminal prosecution of those responsible for planning and executing the fraud.
Without criminal penalties, auto executives will slough off the VW scandal as just another in the long line of fraud they have carried out on the emissions front. Some temporary stock price decline (till the media and "analysts" crow about how the company has turned things around), a handful of resignations and then life goes on in the grand style to which auto execs are accustomed.
Missing from your editorial is the need for criminal prosecution of those responsible for planning and executing the fraud.
Without criminal penalties, auto executives will slough off the VW scandal as just another in the long line of fraud they have carried out on the emissions front. Some temporary stock price decline (till the media and "analysts" crow about how the company has turned things around), a handful of resignations and then life goes on in the grand style to which auto execs are accustomed.
73
• Involvement of Business Practices
An inescapable fact is that the causation of harm, including harmful conditions, behaviors, actions, and inactions includes the generally accepted, ordinary, normal, and usual business practices of the organization.
An inescapable fact is that the causation of harm, including harmful conditions, behaviors, actions, and inactions includes the generally accepted, ordinary, normal, and usual business practices of the organization.
Simple plan for VW to recover in US:
1. Admit guilt and let those many involved do jail time in Europe, US, and other possible juridictions
2. Offer to buy back all fraudulently sold cars at current fair blue book price day before scandal broke
3. Pay environmental remediation adages fr the harm done on a country-by-country basis
3. Commit to a new way forward with the guilty former employees in prison and a new and above-board business to change minds and earn back good will and respect.
If VW does less, they will disappear from the US. And perhaps Europe, which was more grievously harmed.
1. Admit guilt and let those many involved do jail time in Europe, US, and other possible juridictions
2. Offer to buy back all fraudulently sold cars at current fair blue book price day before scandal broke
3. Pay environmental remediation adages fr the harm done on a country-by-country basis
3. Commit to a new way forward with the guilty former employees in prison and a new and above-board business to change minds and earn back good will and respect.
If VW does less, they will disappear from the US. And perhaps Europe, which was more grievously harmed.
3
I would say that VW needs to buy the cars back at not only the price that they were sold for, including salesman's commission PLUS another 25% of the cost for having misleadingly, knowingly sold a defective product.
From the Board on down to the engineers and sales departments, and financial departments, all need to be looking at some hard prison time, not a golden parachute!
From the Board on down to the engineers and sales departments, and financial departments, all need to be looking at some hard prison time, not a golden parachute!
3
The opening salvos of VW's handling of this self-inflicted crisis are hardly encouraging. From televised excerpts of today's congressional hearing, Michael Horn seemed to be mouthing well-scripted apologies followed by a circling of his wagons not well suited to rapid transport over the threshold of scandal.
VW customers of TDI vehicles will never be properly compensated for the plunged value of their purchases. These customers are lost to VW forever. This matters when the customer base is small. It matters more when potentially new customers will inevitably look elsewhere at a plethora of excellent, competitive alternatives.
www.endthemadnessnow.org
VW customers of TDI vehicles will never be properly compensated for the plunged value of their purchases. These customers are lost to VW forever. This matters when the customer base is small. It matters more when potentially new customers will inevitably look elsewhere at a plethora of excellent, competitive alternatives.
www.endthemadnessnow.org
32
I would think the Automobile industry has always been covering up all kinds of defects which are seldom found. when the defect is found, just recall and patch it up.
Many articles point out that major companies do not tell the whole truth to put it mildly, very much like athletes using any mean to win, so do automobile makers first and foremost want to sell cars and are mostly deceptive in their PR.
David Gutholc
Many articles point out that major companies do not tell the whole truth to put it mildly, very much like athletes using any mean to win, so do automobile makers first and foremost want to sell cars and are mostly deceptive in their PR.
David Gutholc
The link to the article included the sentence: "Nobody believes that only a handful of managers knew about the elaborate scheme to cheat on emissions tests. " In that case, call me nobody. It is easy to believe that corporate executives are far enough removed from the details to not have known about it.
While a sordid tale, at least the CEO resigned. Try that in the US where the buck stops at the lower 99% of the ladder.
2
VW execs are "shocked, shocked" to find out that scamming was going on...while collecting their winnings.
2
The editorial board wrote: Nobody believes that the handful of senior managers suspended so far, three of them involved in engine development, could have carried out this scheme without any support.
Well actually I do.
It was all done with SOFTWARE meaning very few people had to be involved with the code.
People who don't work in software development continually underestimate what a few software people can do, since few people understand enough about code to actually review what they do.
Well actually I do.
It was all done with SOFTWARE meaning very few people had to be involved with the code.
People who don't work in software development continually underestimate what a few software people can do, since few people understand enough about code to actually review what they do.
5
You can be sure that Mr Horn was under strict orders to reveal nothing new in his testimony. VW has not yet 'gotten its story together.' Until they do there will be a lot of hemming and hawing to avoid saying anything that would contradict the story they are busy concocting.
2
In Orwell's 1984 Winston Smith thinks to himself, "For the first time he perceived that if you want to keep a secret you must also hide it from yourself."
9
Owning a TDi...and having watched the resale go away...
A buyback at Bluebook Value the week before the debacle, or,
a 200k bumper to bumper warranty.....
not, a 20 hp reduction with a loss of 9 mpg.
A buyback at Bluebook Value the week before the debacle, or,
a 200k bumper to bumper warranty.....
not, a 20 hp reduction with a loss of 9 mpg.
9
C'mon, Justice Department, spell it: R-I-C-O. Get the heads. Plea bargain with some lower down the ladder, and then send some of the big wigs to prison for say, five or ten years. Seize some assets. Maybe some prosecutions and some real punishments might deter corporate crime. C'mon, attorney-general Lynch, R-I-C-O.
4
Never happen. Lots of blabbering, no action.
I'm not interested (and could care less) about any more apologies from VW. I'm interested in facts, of which none that are believable, have been forthcoming.
2
VW has implemented processes and documentation for design, software, development, and manufacturing to comply with the entire spectrum of SAE, ISO, and other standards. Each facility is regularly audited by independent auditors.
Execution of this episode required a wholesale pattern and practice of acts that are predicate criminal offenses under the federal Racketeer-Influenced and Corrupt Organizations statute. Organized crime prosecutors and FBI special agents are experienced and effective in these cases. Convictions will bring serious jail time and fines for individuals; treble damages, profit disgorgement, asset seizures, costs and fees for Volkswagen; and a meaningful example for industry.
End the white glove investigations and Congressional grandstanding.
Treat this like the organized, enterprise crime that it is. This episode should end with "Mother of Mercy. Is this the end of VW?"
Execution of this episode required a wholesale pattern and practice of acts that are predicate criminal offenses under the federal Racketeer-Influenced and Corrupt Organizations statute. Organized crime prosecutors and FBI special agents are experienced and effective in these cases. Convictions will bring serious jail time and fines for individuals; treble damages, profit disgorgement, asset seizures, costs and fees for Volkswagen; and a meaningful example for industry.
End the white glove investigations and Congressional grandstanding.
Treat this like the organized, enterprise crime that it is. This episode should end with "Mother of Mercy. Is this the end of VW?"
1
An apology is start. Pay some real cash into some meaningful solutions to improve air quality for the public. VW has not just cheated their customers but the public as well. I like their cars and their design successes over the years.
A long winded inquiry and hope that this issue fades away, is one scenario likely to play out. How long would an internal inquiry take... not too long.
Publish an internal inquiry in a matter of weeks, maybe a month or two and come clean. In addition have an outside inquiry.
VW has made some great cars over the years. Lay it all out my friends at VW , and move on.
A long winded inquiry and hope that this issue fades away, is one scenario likely to play out. How long would an internal inquiry take... not too long.
Publish an internal inquiry in a matter of weeks, maybe a month or two and come clean. In addition have an outside inquiry.
VW has made some great cars over the years. Lay it all out my friends at VW , and move on.
1
The cover up is (almost) always worse than the crime, and this one may very well spell the end of VW as we know it.
38
Germany cannot afford to see "the end of VW as we know it." Some Scooter Libby's will be found to take the blame, and the game will go on.
Sadly, VW's actions reveal that it is The Fabulous Fab (remember him at Goldman Sachs?) of the automotive world.
The over-riding surmountable problems VW faces are two-fold:
A. diesel fuel in the US suffers inexorably from low quality: US Diesel fuel's cetane is 39 compared to 50+ for non-toxic, high performance, EPA-approved biodiesel ... so, VW dealers should supply $1/gallon biodiesel up to 1,000 gallons per year per diesel customer.
B. the refusal to EXCEED CARB emissions standards. VW should deploy its Teutonic + Xprize ingenuity ... and deliver: hybrid electric + biodiesel + urea injection + particulate filters diesel vehicles.
The over-riding surmountable problems VW faces are two-fold:
A. diesel fuel in the US suffers inexorably from low quality: US Diesel fuel's cetane is 39 compared to 50+ for non-toxic, high performance, EPA-approved biodiesel ... so, VW dealers should supply $1/gallon biodiesel up to 1,000 gallons per year per diesel customer.
B. the refusal to EXCEED CARB emissions standards. VW should deploy its Teutonic + Xprize ingenuity ... and deliver: hybrid electric + biodiesel + urea injection + particulate filters diesel vehicles.
1
I don't trust any of the VW execs. Maybe they're telling the truth, but based on what we know so far, we have no reason to believe them.
When the emissions test were first brought to VW's attention, they spent a year trying to poke holes in the report. Who was doing that and why? Whether the VW engineers knew of the deception and lied, or didn't and were trying to protect the company doesn't matter. It was the wrong response and reflects poorly on the company.
VW spent years and millions of dollars developing an engine that couldn't be sold in the US, a market they wanted to expand in. Winterkorn and his management team must have put enormous pressure on engineers and designers to come up with a solution. Whether Winterkorn knew of the deception or not, he was responsible for the culture that allowed it to happen.
All we're getting from top VW execs are apologies and denials. The only way this company will survive as an automotive powerhouse is if they come clean, overhaul their management and culture, and make every customer whole - even if that means buying back every faulty car at the original selling price.
Don't hold your breath.
When the emissions test were first brought to VW's attention, they spent a year trying to poke holes in the report. Who was doing that and why? Whether the VW engineers knew of the deception and lied, or didn't and were trying to protect the company doesn't matter. It was the wrong response and reflects poorly on the company.
VW spent years and millions of dollars developing an engine that couldn't be sold in the US, a market they wanted to expand in. Winterkorn and his management team must have put enormous pressure on engineers and designers to come up with a solution. Whether Winterkorn knew of the deception or not, he was responsible for the culture that allowed it to happen.
All we're getting from top VW execs are apologies and denials. The only way this company will survive as an automotive powerhouse is if they come clean, overhaul their management and culture, and make every customer whole - even if that means buying back every faulty car at the original selling price.
Don't hold your breath.
1
With this type of leadership I can not imagine that they will ever succeed again to past glory.
1} very weak management in Germany and the US
2) incompetent supervisory board
3) incapable to clean up their house under the current leadership,
Reluctance to work with authorities in the US and Europe openly and constructive to solve this problem. Threat that most countries with the exception of Germany and China may close down VW operations if they don t come forward voluntarily to solve this issue .
VW knows the problems, but don t come forward publicly to communicate with customers and authorities
First step of authorities getting tired of the waiting game:
German prosecutors were raiding VW HQ to search their offices and homes of their failed executives.
The US chief of VW acts like a clown and need to be replaced asap.
1} very weak management in Germany and the US
2) incompetent supervisory board
3) incapable to clean up their house under the current leadership,
Reluctance to work with authorities in the US and Europe openly and constructive to solve this problem. Threat that most countries with the exception of Germany and China may close down VW operations if they don t come forward voluntarily to solve this issue .
VW knows the problems, but don t come forward publicly to communicate with customers and authorities
First step of authorities getting tired of the waiting game:
German prosecutors were raiding VW HQ to search their offices and homes of their failed executives.
The US chief of VW acts like a clown and need to be replaced asap.
1
VW has two separate problems with this fiasco, one dealing with customers, the other dealing with regulators. The customers are, in a sense, easy: Fix their cars, or buy them back. Both are expensive options, but would start to heal the wounds with consumers.
The other problem is with the regulators, and this one is even simpler. Come clean about those who conspired and approved this fraud, put all of them in a box, and tie it up with a bow. Leave it on the doorstep of the DOJ.
Without both of these responses, VW's days are numbered.
The other problem is with the regulators, and this one is even simpler. Come clean about those who conspired and approved this fraud, put all of them in a box, and tie it up with a bow. Leave it on the doorstep of the DOJ.
Without both of these responses, VW's days are numbered.
2
VW will be supported by Germany during these hard times. VW is too important to Germany to allow it to flounder, much less to disappear. Think GM and Chrysler bailout as examples. Every country does this for it's key industries, and VW is definitely a key industry in Germany. Germany will force VW to do right.
The apologies are elegant and lovely. But when the smoke clears, the only course of action that will prevent future occurrence is criminal prosecution and draconian prison sentences. It will only be when other "decision makers" understand that the consequences include, saying "good bye" to one's family, mind-numbing boredom & despair, bad food, undesirable fellow inmates, legal fees that shred the family's financial security, wives electing to remarry, regimentation, etc., etc., that they will have the perspective needed to do the right thing. Stark, cold fear of wrenching consequences will purify the decision-making process and, consequently, the air we breathe.
1
"Follow the engine controller SW Code Change history" within VW's configuration control tool. You will find the truth. That is the modern day version of "Follow the Money"
"SW Deep Throat"
"SW Deep Throat"
1
If Mr. Winterkorn was not responsible, who is? Nobody believes that the handful of senior managers suspended so far, three of them involved in engine development, could have carried out this scheme without any support.
---------------------------------------------------
Well, delegation of authority is an important part of corporate management. Just as Obama cannot be expected to know the details of Hillary Clinton's personal server being exclusively used for official business related communication, it is conceivable that Winterkorn did not know the small details of what was going on. Management sets the goals for strategic growth and line managers determine the nitties and gritties of execution toward that objective.
So, Winterkorn has plausible deniability here unless there is paper trail leading to his office. In which case, he is toast. Corporate managers set store by the mantra that if there is something they needn't know, then they should not be told.
So, it is very likely the decision to use cheat codes in engine software was approved at lower management levels because line management is tasked with achieving the goal of selling X number of diesel vehicles in the USA.
So, absent any paper trail, it is very difficult to implicate the top management in this scandal. That is the harsh reality, like it or not
---------------------------------------------------
Well, delegation of authority is an important part of corporate management. Just as Obama cannot be expected to know the details of Hillary Clinton's personal server being exclusively used for official business related communication, it is conceivable that Winterkorn did not know the small details of what was going on. Management sets the goals for strategic growth and line managers determine the nitties and gritties of execution toward that objective.
So, Winterkorn has plausible deniability here unless there is paper trail leading to his office. In which case, he is toast. Corporate managers set store by the mantra that if there is something they needn't know, then they should not be told.
So, it is very likely the decision to use cheat codes in engine software was approved at lower management levels because line management is tasked with achieving the goal of selling X number of diesel vehicles in the USA.
So, absent any paper trail, it is very difficult to implicate the top management in this scandal. That is the harsh reality, like it or not
3
What a complete joke...the idea that a "couple of software engineers" would secretly and unilaterally insert this cheating routine into millions of lines of code is not just insulting to anyone that knows anything about software, but is so easily and demonstrably proven to be a lie as to beggar belief that VW would even attempt this "excuse". I don't think VW management gets the real ramifications of what they have done. This may very well destroy this company, and coming up with excuses that lack any credibility at all will only hasten its demise.
1
The TDI engine was not able to achieve the gas mileage and power specs that VW wanted, while maintaining US pollution compliance. There was a fix to the problem that Mercedes had, but that was shown to be expensive and would require regular maintenance from the owner. The engineers, lab guys, executives, CEO etc all new about this. New engine platforms don't get built in a back room. They are huge investments, and often a company's future is at stake by how successful it is. Car companies today outsource most of their components. A couple of the only things they do themselves other than design and testing is manufacturing engines and transmissions. It's that big a deal. This is fraud plain and simple. This is reckless endangerment of the public health. Who'll go to jail? Nobody.
1
come clean and customers like may reconsider VW and its subsidiaries again. i was in the market for a porsche, but now i do not foresee myself buying anything associated with VW. VW may not care about one man's business, but I suspect i am not alone.
1
This is an environmental crime. The death caused can be quantified, and is heavy. Childen epecially suffer from smog, they can't breath. VW has put these filthy cars in our air and thay will be poisoning us for decades. Polluters pay with the liquidation and bankrupty they deserve.
2
Unless the authorities are prepared to whitewash the matter with an expensive slap on the wrist, then sooner or later many more names will surface – of current as well as retired employees. This is a fraud that must be pursued in criminal courts, or it would become plain that regulation simply has no real authority.
However, let’s not bury the lead. It’s pretty well accepted that all or almost all the car companies fooled around with emissions, and that it was simply VW that got caught at it – perhaps because theirs was the most egregious program, but perhaps not.
As culpable names in VW surface, plea deals should be crafted to pry names of those in other companies that were (and perhaps are) doing the same thing, as well as details of THEIR programs.
However, let’s not bury the lead. It’s pretty well accepted that all or almost all the car companies fooled around with emissions, and that it was simply VW that got caught at it – perhaps because theirs was the most egregious program, but perhaps not.
As culpable names in VW surface, plea deals should be crafted to pry names of those in other companies that were (and perhaps are) doing the same thing, as well as details of THEIR programs.
1
And your evidence is what? The BMW X3 passed the precise test that the Jetta and Passat failed. Further, unless the manufacturers installed similar devices, passing the EPA test protocols is what is required. The EPA should test in actual settings - but they didn't.
1
taxdoc:
The belief that everyone messes with emissions is common enough that the Times reported it in its breaking news piece of this matter -- whether that belief is valid or not. But like most people I suspect fire when I see a lot of smoke.
As to testing in actual conditions, the emissions regulation of the EPA, not to mention the State of California all by itself, has become so unwieldy and layered that testing it comprehensively could require a very substantial lift in budget. We DO have other priorities for public money.
The belief that everyone messes with emissions is common enough that the Times reported it in its breaking news piece of this matter -- whether that belief is valid or not. But like most people I suspect fire when I see a lot of smoke.
As to testing in actual conditions, the emissions regulation of the EPA, not to mention the State of California all by itself, has become so unwieldy and layered that testing it comprehensively could require a very substantial lift in budget. We DO have other priorities for public money.
What happens to all these VW TDI vehicles which can no longer pass state emissions inspections when due? If I was a VW customer, I would park the car in my dealer's lot and refuse to leave the premises until I received a full refund plus an extra $10,000 for inconvenience and having to breath my car's noxious pollution.
This isn't just "a couple of software guys" gone rogue. VW has a huge quality control department and they would have caught this easily... unless they were instructed not to catch it by the corporate big-wigs. This is criminal fraud at the corporate management level. I hope someone can expose it.
This isn't just "a couple of software guys" gone rogue. VW has a huge quality control department and they would have caught this easily... unless they were instructed not to catch it by the corporate big-wigs. This is criminal fraud at the corporate management level. I hope someone can expose it.
1
"Mr. Horn would only say that this deception was the work of “a couple of software engineers,” and not a corporate decision."
Mr. Horn is either lying to protect his job, has no understanding of how complex software is created, or is just plain delusional.
Mr. Horn is either lying to protect his job, has no understanding of how complex software is created, or is just plain delusional.
1
Volkswagen has been polluting the world's air since 2009 by cheating the emissions test with a clever little chip, and NOT ONE top executive knew about it? Boy, their employees are sure sneaky.
1
Compared to elites like Al Gore jetting across the country both ways a couple of hundred times just while he was Vice President for personal political purposes, the VW pollution is negligble - PLUS it was released far from the upper atmosphere.
Oh, and thanks for helping pay for Al's big effort to nail down California funders.
Oh, and thanks for helping pay for Al's big effort to nail down California funders.
"the VW pollution is negligible - PLUS it was released far from the upper atmosphere".
So because it's being released at ground level - where we can all breath it - this is cause to ignore it? Brilliant.
So because it's being released at ground level - where we can all breath it - this is cause to ignore it? Brilliant.
1
It's already too late for VW Audi. They're stalling and lying. After all, they tried for a year to get the EPA to back off. They must have already investigated internally, but they're not turning the culprits in. They deserve to pay the full $18 billion in fines and to suffer massive losses from lawsuits. But consumers, too, can punish them as well, and must. Never. Buy. VWAudi. Again.
1
Maybe Volkswagen has little experience dealing with such a disaster, but surely they have the money to hire the best PR consultants to help them manage it. They need that outside help, because their Achilles heel seems to be that they do everything internally. It seems they'd really, really like to think — and have us think — that this is just an engineering problem. In fact that approach is going to cause the real damage, day by day, customer by customer.
1
I guess I should by a Ford F350 diesel instead.
5
Don't buy any kind of diesel. Buy a hydrogen-powered fuel-cell electric. Ford is no better at this kind of emissions control than VW. The problem is that diesel engines are inherently dirty.
You state: "Even if they manage to fix millions of cars, VW executives will still face a monstrous challenge from lawsuits, potential prosecutions, lost sales and the blow to VW’s reputation for quality engineering"
As outrageous as this scandal is, I do not think it represents a blow to VW's reputation for high quality German engineering at the most affordable price points in the US. On the whole, they still make great cars, but now the company is untrustworthy. I have owned a few VWs over the years. I drive a new (2015) Golf gasoline engine model that I bought new for well under $20K, and get highway mileage of almost 40mpg, and the car drives and handles like a much more expensive one. So far, it's flawless. No other car in its class comes close to this performance at anywhere near that price. I hope they can rehabiliate their diesels and continue to sell a lot of cars in the US.
As outrageous as this scandal is, I do not think it represents a blow to VW's reputation for high quality German engineering at the most affordable price points in the US. On the whole, they still make great cars, but now the company is untrustworthy. I have owned a few VWs over the years. I drive a new (2015) Golf gasoline engine model that I bought new for well under $20K, and get highway mileage of almost 40mpg, and the car drives and handles like a much more expensive one. So far, it's flawless. No other car in its class comes close to this performance at anywhere near that price. I hope they can rehabiliate their diesels and continue to sell a lot of cars in the US.
6
Lock all the perpetrators up. Let none escape punishment. Only by making an example will this idiocy stop.
I am sure there are many decent people working for Volkswagen nonetheless I think we should fine them, fine them and fine them again right out of business. As an alternative, we can refuse to allow them, after fining them billions, to sell their cars in this country.
Ah, it was the lowly mechanic. It was him and he will be stoned. The exec's will all go scot free as they "knew nothing".
2
"Come Clean, Now"? Gee, the Times is really going out on a limb with this radical viewpoint.
1
The previous CEO just seems to have resigned and disappeared off the face of the Earth. You don't hear or see anything of him anymore. He just took his (ill-gotten) mega-millions and left the mess for everyone else to try and clean up. That's true leadership.
10
Since the Volkswagen diesel engine never performed as expected, making it necessary to build in a bypass system, the only real solution is to replace the entire engine with one of a new design or a Volkswagen gasoline engine, which, we hope, does meet standards. Many early Oldsmobile diesel engines, which failed often, were replaced by gas engines by disappointed owners.
Can you spell crooks?
VW surely needs to come clean, but the time may not be now. Seems to me, corporate officials in the US might be well-advised to plead the Fifth Amendment, lest their statements be used against them in a criminal prosecution. Later, let's hear the full, ugly story from their own lips.
1
German firms are some of the finest engineering firms on the planet. It wasn't so long ago the U.S. space agency was known for having better German rocket scientists than the Russian German rocket scientist. VW management made a serious mistake and must atone, but inflicting lasting damage to the company would be disproportionate for an offense that killed or injured no one.
Now, time for VW to get serious about electric vehicles.
Now, time for VW to get serious about electric vehicles.
3
What do you mean "killed or injured no one" ? Why do you think we limit the emissions from diesel engines? Hint: they're extremely hazardous.
How convenient for Winterkorn to resign and not have to answer to any of this (until he gets prosecuted and sued). It happened on his watch as CEO, when he set the corporate goal of becoming the #1 car company in sales and had invested heavily in diesel (vs. hybrid) technology - a "bet the farm" decision of great corporate significance. To say this is all the doing of a couple of rogue engineers is a total joke and a disgrace.
Exactly. If they continue sprinkling breadcrumbs down a trail of lies they might as well turn the lights off in Wolfsburg.
When is VW going to start selling those bridges?
Think they faked the crash tests too?
2
Do corporations believe they have a right to lie to their customers and the public and, in this case, the American government? It would see so by the remarks by Muller, Winterkorn and probably any VW board member you run across. Of course, the only answer is to take control of the company out of the "family" and turn it over to people who want to make cars that don't lie, only good enough to justify the money they cost. The "Family" doesn't deserve to have control of the VW and Audi anymore.
1
The VW executive press parade is theater of the absurd. The defeat software was the heartbeat of their entire diesel strategy worldwide. There is absolutely no way that a strategy with such a global reach can move forward without executives giving the go ahead.
It is clear from the endless denials of culpability and from the total lack of accountability from anyone of executive ranks at VW that VW has not learned a thing from this mess.
Ridiculous.
It is clear from the endless denials of culpability and from the total lack of accountability from anyone of executive ranks at VW that VW has not learned a thing from this mess.
Ridiculous.
3
I'm not going to pay $390 for my TDI diesel on my VW loan this month. Anyone want to join me?
4
As always, follow the money. Who stood to gain from this? A couple of software engineers? Would their compensation depend on the emissions testing and mpg of the cars? No. Well, maybe... if they were told what to do and told to keep their mouths shut. And that would come from much higher up.
This "inner functioning of the engine software" brought VW tens of billions of dollars of additional revenue and billions of dollars of profit. This is definitely the CEO level of priorities.
1
The only apology that would mean something: buy back my Jetta Sportwagen TDI or at least give me fair value - before the scandal broke - trade in on another VW (hold the diesel this time.)
5
I think its shameful that any republican would sit in on these hearings. Their positions are clear that there is just too much regulation of industry already. These jokers are grandstanding. Kick em out - their not true republicans.
5
VW lost my trust a long time ago.
I owned a 2000 new Beetle. It had 6 electrical failures in 3 years. I decided I'd never buy a VW again.
Good decision!
I owned a 2000 new Beetle. It had 6 electrical failures in 3 years. I decided I'd never buy a VW again.
Good decision!
I am waiting for specific calculations about how much extra pollution these cars spewed. What is the environmental cost to all of us?
3
Straight out of the playbook used by BP, Pfizer, Kelloggs (remember the Swine flu immunity cereal scam?), Perdue Farms ("humane chicken")....the list goes on and on.....
7
VW Diesel autos are terribly toxic folks. They make us sick. Please Please Don't Buy Them!
1
Anyone who has worked at a large corporation understand how things like this happen.
1. The big bosses set an ambitious goal. "We must have a diesel engine that gets 50 miles to the gallon, has high performance, and passes the emissions tests in the US! That's an order!"
2. The engineers set about trying to implement this goal. They discover that what they are trying to do is very difficult.
3. The engineers start to make small changes to the software that cause it to perform differently in different road conditions. They think they are getting close. The engineering managers understand what is going on. They report progress to the big bosses, who encourage them to complete the job.
4. The deadline is getting near, and progress is slowing down. The engineering team is busily experimenting, trying everything they can think of. They just can't get over the hump.
5. They decide to try making an engine that passes the tests, but emits slightly more in normal conditions. This is cheating, but only a little bit, and everybody does it. The engineering management understands this, and the big bosses approve.
6. As the engineers get closer, they cheat more and more. They may or may not tell the engineering managers. They believe they can come back later and fix the problems.
7. The engineering managers tell the big bosses they're getting very close. They receive a lot of encouragement to finish the job.
1. The big bosses set an ambitious goal. "We must have a diesel engine that gets 50 miles to the gallon, has high performance, and passes the emissions tests in the US! That's an order!"
2. The engineers set about trying to implement this goal. They discover that what they are trying to do is very difficult.
3. The engineers start to make small changes to the software that cause it to perform differently in different road conditions. They think they are getting close. The engineering managers understand what is going on. They report progress to the big bosses, who encourage them to complete the job.
4. The deadline is getting near, and progress is slowing down. The engineering team is busily experimenting, trying everything they can think of. They just can't get over the hump.
5. They decide to try making an engine that passes the tests, but emits slightly more in normal conditions. This is cheating, but only a little bit, and everybody does it. The engineering management understands this, and the big bosses approve.
6. As the engineers get closer, they cheat more and more. They may or may not tell the engineering managers. They believe they can come back later and fix the problems.
7. The engineering managers tell the big bosses they're getting very close. They receive a lot of encouragement to finish the job.
4
8. A small group of engineers finally puts in an outrageous cheat, and it works! They don't tell the engineering management, who suspect some cheating is going on but thinks it is no worse than what everyone else is doing.
9. They present the results to the big bosses, and everyone is very pleased. The cheating is forgotten or rationalized away. Nobody realizes how far above the limits they are. Everyone goes on to some other project, and the people who know the details of what was done are scattered around the company.
10. And then, eight years later.....
9. They present the results to the big bosses, and everyone is very pleased. The cheating is forgotten or rationalized away. Nobody realizes how far above the limits they are. Everyone goes on to some other project, and the people who know the details of what was done are scattered around the company.
10. And then, eight years later.....
1
That sounds very plausible. Add the arrogance that regulation is wrongheaded and you have a team of engineers gaming the rules.
It doesn't require managers know what is happening. They are told we are "optimising the test results". Road results were always less optimal than official testing, so engineering for test results was probably an acceptable activity. However, at some point it goes too far, becoming a defeat device.
All it takes is managers not looking closely, and not having the same technical expertise as their underlings (verrrrry easy with software), and pressure to "produce results".
I have seen the same working in financial trading. No one asks questions when things go right (there are profits and we are geniuses). They only ask when things go wrong (when there are losses). Remember Joe Jett?
Good management asks questions, when ANYTHING is out of line (e.g. excess profits):
1) how is it that we can produce "clean diesel" but our competitors can't (arrogant answer: we are so much better)
2) If we can get such good results on a smaller engine and save the hardware solution, why aren't we putting this in the larger engines to save money and get better results (Some very technical explanation that benefits taper off at higher power levels)
3) Having questioned the "success" of the clean diesel, when EPA approval wasn't forthcoming last year, management should have investiged (an done their own tests)
It doesn't require managers know what is happening. They are told we are "optimising the test results". Road results were always less optimal than official testing, so engineering for test results was probably an acceptable activity. However, at some point it goes too far, becoming a defeat device.
All it takes is managers not looking closely, and not having the same technical expertise as their underlings (verrrrry easy with software), and pressure to "produce results".
I have seen the same working in financial trading. No one asks questions when things go right (there are profits and we are geniuses). They only ask when things go wrong (when there are losses). Remember Joe Jett?
Good management asks questions, when ANYTHING is out of line (e.g. excess profits):
1) how is it that we can produce "clean diesel" but our competitors can't (arrogant answer: we are so much better)
2) If we can get such good results on a smaller engine and save the hardware solution, why aren't we putting this in the larger engines to save money and get better results (Some very technical explanation that benefits taper off at higher power levels)
3) Having questioned the "success" of the clean diesel, when EPA approval wasn't forthcoming last year, management should have investiged (an done their own tests)
1
VW (and Audi) have admitted to serially abusing their customers and the health of Americans for the better half of a decade - this isn't a case of running a green light that was fixing to turn red at an intersection. This is like VW seeing the light is red from 2 blocks away, then hitting the gas (diesel ?) pretending the light they ran was just an ' oops '.
VW (and Audi) deliberately, wantonly, intentionally, defrauded their customers and sold faulty products that have adversely affect Americans' health for the better half of a decade, and admit it will be years before they contemplate the problem being fixed - the health effects and the effects on climate change are un-knowable.
VW (and Audi) are mistaken in presuming this is an ' oops ' moment where they will get the same kid glove treatment the banksters did :)
VW (and Audi) deliberately, wantonly, intentionally, defrauded their customers and sold faulty products that have adversely affect Americans' health for the better half of a decade, and admit it will be years before they contemplate the problem being fixed - the health effects and the effects on climate change are un-knowable.
VW (and Audi) are mistaken in presuming this is an ' oops ' moment where they will get the same kid glove treatment the banksters did :)
18
Two points,
1 The exact amount can be known to a small % +/- as they know how many vehicles were produced.
2 VW and Audi are 2 branches of the same company.
1 The exact amount can be known to a small % +/- as they know how many vehicles were produced.
2 VW and Audi are 2 branches of the same company.
magic - Although an estimate can be computed, it will always just be an estimate; we'll never know exactly how much they have impacted health and the climate, compared to what would things would have been had they not acted so recklessly.
Yes, we know VW and Audi are the same company, but several times this past week, the media (including NPR) have been leaving out of the equation the additional 2 million+ autos that Audi has said had faulty software, whilst referring to just VW's 11 million+ vehicles.
We agree with you, there's no reason for the media to separate the two divisions and refer to just 11 million subject VW's when VW/Audi are the same group, and their combined affected vehicles are 13.3 million+ .
Yes, we know VW and Audi are the same company, but several times this past week, the media (including NPR) have been leaving out of the equation the additional 2 million+ autos that Audi has said had faulty software, whilst referring to just VW's 11 million+ vehicles.
We agree with you, there's no reason for the media to separate the two divisions and refer to just 11 million subject VW's when VW/Audi are the same group, and their combined affected vehicles are 13.3 million+ .
1
Mea Culpa R. Law
Porsche is also a part of the same group.
Porsche is also a part of the same group.
Classic "thieves in suits". Just imagine the devastating financial damage, the job losses and the stock holder's equity.
We need MORE regulation, not less.
We need MORE regulation, not less.
184
More EFFECTIVE regulation - not more rules. The EPA (and Consumer Reports) also dropped the ball here. The tests that revealed the emissions took relatively little time, and not much money. The entire grant used by the UWV team was about $50,000.
The problem here was not the regulations--the pollution standards existed, they were detailed and the penalties for non-compliance means a company is not allowed to sell the cars.
What happened is that the testing arm of the EPA was hoodwinked. Credit goes to the WVU team that found the problem.
What happened is that the testing arm of the EPA was hoodwinked. Credit goes to the WVU team that found the problem.
Tim, It is not clear how more regulation would help, since this was an example of a company deliberately circumventing existing regulation. Perhaps more oversight or more testing of these regulations would help. Even better would be if the US and Europe managed to come up with common regulation so that the cost of meeting them would be lower, and the cost of enforcement could be shared.
"Apologizing is the easy part." Now if the Editorial Board had been referring to Obama's apology to MSF for the destruction of their hospital, I would think they would have made a good and substantial point. But that would take spine that the Editorial Board does not have.
38
It's not wrong if you don't get caught. The guy must be a Republican.
relevance, please.
1
Give the editorial board of the NYT credit. When I glanced at the Wall Street J a few days ago, they said the attack on the MSF hospital in Afghanistan was "the fault of the Taliban" for retaking the city and opposing our goals for Afghanistan.
Not the fault of the US military for probably deliberately attacking a hospital and continuing the attack when there was no question they knew it was going on. Not the fault of the US military for letting the Afghan army tell them what to attack (if true) with no US brains in the middle. Not the fault of the Afghan army for, probably deliberately, conning us into attacking a hospital. Like Afghanistan is rightfully OUR business and the Taliban are just a bunch of flies buzzing around the corpse.
So compared to the right wing Wall Street J the editorial board of the NYT are a pack of cougars or bears in their courage.
Not the fault of the US military for probably deliberately attacking a hospital and continuing the attack when there was no question they knew it was going on. Not the fault of the US military for letting the Afghan army tell them what to attack (if true) with no US brains in the middle. Not the fault of the Afghan army for, probably deliberately, conning us into attacking a hospital. Like Afghanistan is rightfully OUR business and the Taliban are just a bunch of flies buzzing around the corpse.
So compared to the right wing Wall Street J the editorial board of the NYT are a pack of cougars or bears in their courage.
1
Gotta love how it always is with these high level execs. When it comes to justifying their salaries it's "I'm indispensable, you can't find anyone else who can do this job, I'm worth every penny of my $15 million a year"
Then when something goes wrong its "I have now knowledge of any of this, it was all my underlings, I have no idea what's going on in my own company"
If you don't laugh, you cry...
Then when something goes wrong its "I have now knowledge of any of this, it was all my underlings, I have no idea what's going on in my own company"
If you don't laugh, you cry...
323
Maybe a class action lawsuit....
I hope their prison terms match their boni.
Except when you move down the chain, where the excuse is "I was just following orders"
VW is circling the wagons and closing ranks. Standard strategy calls for apologies because apologies are cheap. Those who have to be blamed, usually lower down the chain of command, know the rules. If you are caught, the secretary will disavow any knowledge of your actions. Those at the top of the chain who apologize and resign will be quietly rewarded for their loyalty to the greater good of the company. It has ever been thus.
Oddly I just wrote almost the exact same words in response to the "accidental" bombing of the Doctors Without Borders hospital by the Americans in Afghanistan. Big companies and big countries prevail in the face of almost any scandal by simply outlasting the news cycle. We shall see.
Oddly I just wrote almost the exact same words in response to the "accidental" bombing of the Doctors Without Borders hospital by the Americans in Afghanistan. Big companies and big countries prevail in the face of almost any scandal by simply outlasting the news cycle. We shall see.
83
I support a 1 year ban on all VW products imported into the US. Corporate malfeasance isn't acceptable in a society of laws.
18
And what about the VW products produced by the plant in Chattanooga TN?
1
Most VWs sold in the US are made in Tennessee.
1
Awwh come on. If you really mean that, nobody would be selling cars in the US. Or refrigerators, or doing banking, or ...
1
These guys don't get doing business in the United Sates.
The systematic fraud, well, need I say more?
I own one of the affected Audi diesels. At least I think I do, from reading the news. What have I heard from Audi? Nada. They just don't get it. The ONLY way out for them is to keep the people who liked them enough in the first place to pay premium price for a diesel. Apology? Nope. Update? Nope. Information? Nope.
They have apologized to their Board, the German government and now the Congress. Congress didn't buy one of their cars. I did.
So, self-absorbed German guys, listen up. C-U-S-T-O-M-E-R-S. People who shelled out 30 grand for an economy car. Once. People who thought they were getting "Truth in Engineering" when they got the "TDI Clean Diesel." Help me get through that you lied to me, that when you fix it I will lose performance and mileage, and resale value. That I will have to take my time to bring the car in for you to make it worth less and perform worse. Just throw me a bone. I'd love to hear from you. I'm lonely.
The systematic fraud, well, need I say more?
I own one of the affected Audi diesels. At least I think I do, from reading the news. What have I heard from Audi? Nada. They just don't get it. The ONLY way out for them is to keep the people who liked them enough in the first place to pay premium price for a diesel. Apology? Nope. Update? Nope. Information? Nope.
They have apologized to their Board, the German government and now the Congress. Congress didn't buy one of their cars. I did.
So, self-absorbed German guys, listen up. C-U-S-T-O-M-E-R-S. People who shelled out 30 grand for an economy car. Once. People who thought they were getting "Truth in Engineering" when they got the "TDI Clean Diesel." Help me get through that you lied to me, that when you fix it I will lose performance and mileage, and resale value. That I will have to take my time to bring the car in for you to make it worth less and perform worse. Just throw me a bone. I'd love to hear from you. I'm lonely.
220
I'll never buy a GM product, and I'll never buy a VW, either. I'll never trust them again.
1
These are the people VW will fear. Unsatisfied customers with a bona fide reason to take VW to the cleaners. It is these customers that will cause this crisis to persist for years and to force VW to continue to pay dearly for a stupid mistake. These customers are not just in America. VW has vehicles sold worldwide which are suspect as American vehicles are. VW owners should not hold their breaths for a resolution to their satisfaction. VW, as big as it is, doesn't have that much money.
4
The absence of any official acknowledgment on the vw corporate website speaks volumes regarding vw culture at the top.
1
I think VW deliberately chose not to use the urea injection technology adopted by its competitors because it only changes the NOX to ammonia which then reacts after exhausting the tailpipe with ambient NOX to form the microparticulates that regulations also limit in tailpipe emissions.
The competitor's products also spew excess NOX as soon as the urea tank is depleted.
The competitor's products also spew excess NOX as soon as the urea tank is depleted.
7
It has been reported in automotive journals that VW saved about $190 per car that did not have the urea technology. Boy, don't they wish they could pay that now? Or double that?
1
Once the AdBlue tank is depleted, vehicle won't run.
The customer has a warning via 10 start/stop cycles prior to tank depletion.
VW owners will make out just fine, VW has ambitious plans to be a volume player. In 5 years time, this will be just a minor impediment.
.
The customer has a warning via 10 start/stop cycles prior to tank depletion.
VW owners will make out just fine, VW has ambitious plans to be a volume player. In 5 years time, this will be just a minor impediment.
.
I made this comment once before and will say it again... Perhaps the targets the federal and state EPA's are placing on emissions and improving miles per gallon performance may be unachievable now and the immediate future..
Like most things, to make improvements in one aspect usually means a trade-off somewhere else... So until there is a reasonable expectation of what is achievable by these governing bodies perhaps there will be more pitfalls found..
Like most things, to make improvements in one aspect usually means a trade-off somewhere else... So until there is a reasonable expectation of what is achievable by these governing bodies perhaps there will be more pitfalls found..
2
The concept of "plausible deniability" has been baked into corporate management for many, many years. This will never be about whether Mr. Winterkorn or anyone in the executive suite actually knew what was going on. It will be about whether such knowledge can be proven beyond the doubt of an editorial opinion.
17
If top management didn't know about bet-the-company actions, then what is the purpose of having top management?
It is not true to say that top management can never be hoodwinked. French solar researchers put one over on deGaulle in order to build the Pic du Midi solar collector (they told him it would be necessary for his A-bomb program and neithr he nor his advisers knew any better). But desgning and teating something as compicted as an emissions cntrol system that works intermittently is nt something trivial.
After all, GM, Chrysler and Ford failed to develop an intermittent windshield wiper themselves, although they tried. So they stole the design.
Corporate managers are recruited via a system that ensures that nobody with any real rains goes up.
It is not true to say that top management can never be hoodwinked. French solar researchers put one over on deGaulle in order to build the Pic du Midi solar collector (they told him it would be necessary for his A-bomb program and neithr he nor his advisers knew any better). But desgning and teating something as compicted as an emissions cntrol system that works intermittently is nt something trivial.
After all, GM, Chrysler and Ford failed to develop an intermittent windshield wiper themselves, although they tried. So they stole the design.
Corporate managers are recruited via a system that ensures that nobody with any real rains goes up.
13
We need real tests of the emissions of all cars and trucks. VW may be cheating also on its gasoline-powered cars. What about BMW, Mercedes, Toyota, Honda, etc?
And why are EPA's emission standards for particulate matter so loose?
And why are EPA's emission standards for particulate matter so loose?
39
@kevin cahill The difference in emissions testing between gasoline and diesel powered cars is that whereas direct measurements up the tailpipe are made in gas powered cars without connection to the engine control computer, for diesels since 1997 (I think that's the date in CT at least), the emissions tester connects to the computer to control the measurement parameters. So you can't spoof testing of a gas-powered car, at least this easily.
1
Mr. Horn appears to be playing the consummate flak catcher, whether it's dealing with Congress, VW dealers or the public. You would think that his bosses in Germany would have given him some information to placate members of Congress, but there was nothing. It appears that he is not high enough in the VW food chain. It would be good if they could question Müller, but I doubt that he has any plans to visit the US.
6
Michael Horn was believable and upfront in his testimony. He did not equivocate on responsibility or blame. He gave simple yes or no answers most of the time. I can't remember any congressional testimony I've seen in the past years where someone has so simply said Yes to questions involving breaking the law.
Mr Horn also admitted he also found it difficult to believe the ones suspended were the only ones responsible. He did say the policy was not a corporate one, i.e., did not involve decisions made at the board level.
Engineers worth anything do not cheat without pressure at some high level of the company. And in the (US) companies I've been at, unless such a decision is made at a high level, there are ways that lowly engineers can complain about unethical behavior to the highest levels of the company. My feeling is that someone high up will be implicated and given that production software can involve teams of people and teams of testers, I think many engineers will be implicated as well.
Mr Horn also admitted he also found it difficult to believe the ones suspended were the only ones responsible. He did say the policy was not a corporate one, i.e., did not involve decisions made at the board level.
Engineers worth anything do not cheat without pressure at some high level of the company. And in the (US) companies I've been at, unless such a decision is made at a high level, there are ways that lowly engineers can complain about unethical behavior to the highest levels of the company. My feeling is that someone high up will be implicated and given that production software can involve teams of people and teams of testers, I think many engineers will be implicated as well.
53
Herr Horn is not believable. The first words out of his mouth when this story broke is "we screwed up." No, they lied to their customers, lied to regulators, cheated, took money under false pretenses, lied to the US government, and broke the law. Horn knew about the cheating more than a year ago but now says VW "screwed up." He should be charged with crimes, jailed, and then deported when his time is served.
His letter to US car owners absolutely equivocated on responsibility and blame. How about this circumlocution to describe what happened (my abbreviations): "Earlier this month VW [] received notice from the US EPA, US D of Justice, and the CA Air Resources Board, informing us that those agencies had determined that certain 2.0L 4-cylinder TDI vehicles do not comply with emissions standards. According to our records, you own or lease one of these vehicles. I am writing you today to offer a personal and profound apology..."
....that certain 2.0L 4-cylinder TDI vehicles do not comply with emissions standards... does not begin to describe the grounds on which we TDI owners deserve ad personal and profound apology.
....that certain 2.0L 4-cylinder TDI vehicles do not comply with emissions standards... does not begin to describe the grounds on which we TDI owners deserve ad personal and profound apology.
VW's problem do not just exist in the US. VW has this problem in nearly all the markets that it has sold their diesel vehicles in questions. The biggest headache for VW will come from Germany it self. There is no country more angry and incensed that VW had decided to defraud it's customers.
The headline says to come clean now? Do not hold your breath. This is not just a recall of a vehicle, which however bad, as the GM incident had shown, this is a case of fraud and deception. Germany, the countries in Europe and all around the world will be lining up to take their piece of VW.
America and Americans who own the diesel VWs may have to wait a long time. There are many who are banging on VW's doors. We'll have to wait for our turn at VW. I do not believe there are any people more angry at VW than the Germans themselves. VW has managed to shoot down a very well earned and important reputation that Germany has for it's quality of it's product and, most important, it's integrity.
The liabilities to VW will be great. Some estimates put it at $86 billion, even greater than BP's liability. The call for now will be in vain. This will take years. At this pace it may take VW months to just come clean.
The headline says to come clean now? Do not hold your breath. This is not just a recall of a vehicle, which however bad, as the GM incident had shown, this is a case of fraud and deception. Germany, the countries in Europe and all around the world will be lining up to take their piece of VW.
America and Americans who own the diesel VWs may have to wait a long time. There are many who are banging on VW's doors. We'll have to wait for our turn at VW. I do not believe there are any people more angry at VW than the Germans themselves. VW has managed to shoot down a very well earned and important reputation that Germany has for it's quality of it's product and, most important, it's integrity.
The liabilities to VW will be great. Some estimates put it at $86 billion, even greater than BP's liability. The call for now will be in vain. This will take years. At this pace it may take VW months to just come clean.
39
We can make a difference by not buying their cars in the future!
35
Ban all german cars till they hand over all those involved
Litigation is probably the only cost that VW can save; they will be paying plenty in fines, recalls, and restitution. It behooves them to save on legal fees by admitting guilt, making sure the responsible individuals are charged, and focusing on the costs they can't avoid.
But, for many people, after a home a car is the most money they'll be shelling out for anything. For most people, a car is the first most significant transaction they'll make. VW isn't going to change their image with a cute ad campaign, and thus far their CEO's have been entirely unsympathetic figures.
They do need to come clean, but for a company that fraudulently espoused being clean, it is going to be a massive uphill battle to save their reputation.
But, for many people, after a home a car is the most money they'll be shelling out for anything. For most people, a car is the first most significant transaction they'll make. VW isn't going to change their image with a cute ad campaign, and thus far their CEO's have been entirely unsympathetic figures.
They do need to come clean, but for a company that fraudulently espoused being clean, it is going to be a massive uphill battle to save their reputation.
40
VW come clean? Why should they? The shareholders take the hit. Senior execs walk off with their many millions. And Germany has zero intention of pursuing criminal investigation against the boys at the top. Neat.
29
Germany did just raid VW's corporate headquarters.
They may very well pursue a criminal investigation. One of the largest shareholders of VW is a state government.
They may very well pursue a criminal investigation. One of the largest shareholders of VW is a state government.
2
Blaming this on “a couple of software engineers” is truly contemptible. Anyone who has worked in a corporation, especially a European or American one, knows that such a thing is just not possible.
174
Anyone who has worked as an employee anywhere, also knows that survival -- which means the income to support one's family -- depends on keeping one's place and to "see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil."
1
I fully believe it's entirely possible that only a couple of engineers at VW knew about this. If any more knew they would have certainly run into someone who recognized the bigger-picture extreme risk and futility of this shortcut.
This is complex stuff ... VW has already admitted fault now let them find a high-quality solution and not be rushed into something half-baked just because you are impatient.
This is complex stuff ... VW has already admitted fault now let them find a high-quality solution and not be rushed into something half-baked just because you are impatient.
9
As a business decision, I agree it's insane. But that doesn't mean anything one way or the other. At the very least, this was a very severe case of not wanting to know. Also, the engineers that went this way didn't profit personally. They must have been driven to desperation by impossible to meet cost vs. result demands.
18
Complex, intertwined software controls every aspect of vehicle function. Dozens of engineers must coordinate every line of code to enable a car to work at all. One or two "rogues" could not have slipped in a patch without every other performance department knowing something was up.
132
Exactly. This is not an easter egg placed in a little bit of gaming code.
18
There is another consequence of the massive fraud VW perpetrated upon the world. That is the damage to Germany's claimed virtue -- that its industry, business and people play by the rules. In fact, the claim is that Germany is a rule-driven society, which makes it morally superior to less conscientious nations, such as the morally-deficient Greeks and southern Europeans generally. If we never again hear this cant from the Germans then that will be a positive result of VW's criminal behavior.
106
And the U.S. needs to prosecute, now. A fine isn't enough.
74
Its not going to happen, only the poor go to jail in america
1
Who do you prosecute, and how? The engines and pollution control systems were designed in Germany.
Extradition. There have to be real consequences for deliberately flouting the law. Enough with the fines as a "cost of doing business." The risk of jail time has an amazing salutary effect on corporate compliance.
"Earlier this month VW [] received notice from the US EPA, US D of Justice, and the CA Air Resources Board, informing us that those agencies had determined that certain 2.0L 4-cylinder TDI vehicles do not comply with emissions standards. According to our records, you own or lease one of these vehicles.
I am writing you today to offer a personal and profound apology..."
But Mr. Horn, you left out the most important part, you know, the part where you acknowledge not that the cars don't comply, but that the reason they don't comply is that VW had altered the software on them to cheat the EPA tests to cover up the fact that they don't comply: THAT'S why we deserve a profound apology. If I'd been at all inclined to keep my future business with VW this abject failure to take responsibility when caught red handed cheating their customers would have settled it once and for all.