This is OUTRAGEOUS. Men don't like it can reschedule on another flight. Please women, do not move to support this misogyny.
123
May be they should take a sail boat instead boarding a flight to get from NY to TA.
Top deck for men, lower deck for women and children.
Modern technology like airplanes should be reserved for people with somewhat modern values.
Win-win for everyone.
Top deck for men, lower deck for women and children.
Modern technology like airplanes should be reserved for people with somewhat modern values.
Win-win for everyone.
53
I travel alone with my two children and plan far ahead. When booking on United with connections to their partner airlines, advance seat assignments are often not available because United doesn't have access to those databases. I have been in situations many times when I have been seated away from my two young children but have had other passengers kindly and graciously offered to move to help us sit together. (I mean, really, who is crazy enough to want to sit next to two unsupervised kids?!) I have very much appreciated those offers and hate to see stories like this cause people to defend their seat assignment out of principle and add to a society that seems to be steering away from caring for others.
I believe the man in this story needed to request to move himself and not expect the woman to move. It was his job to politely apologize to the woman, take his bag and politely beg the flight attendants for help finding another - probably less comfortable - seat trade. The expectation that others should cater to his personal beliefs isn't right.
I believe the man in this story needed to request to move himself and not expect the woman to move. It was his job to politely apologize to the woman, take his bag and politely beg the flight attendants for help finding another - probably less comfortable - seat trade. The expectation that others should cater to his personal beliefs isn't right.
94
Well, here we are in the year 2015 and not only does the absurd archaic, tribal fear of women still persist in abundance in the Muslim world, we now see it coming into the open more frequently in the allegedly enlightened west. Please forgive me but it's almost enough to make me do as some Orthodox Jews do and begin my day with a prayer thanking God I am not a woman. And all based on the pathetic - truly pathetic - notion that all woman are temptresses out to seduce every male who comes near them.
But then, what the heck; what do I know? Maybe God really would prefer that, rather than be civil, respectful and decent to a woman next to me on a plane - say some grandmother, or a young handicapped woman - I should instead rub my "religion" in her face and force her to move so I can sit in my seat and bask in the glow of my superior, untainted purity!
But then, what the heck; what do I know? Maybe God really would prefer that, rather than be civil, respectful and decent to a woman next to me on a plane - say some grandmother, or a young handicapped woman - I should instead rub my "religion" in her face and force her to move so I can sit in my seat and bask in the glow of my superior, untainted purity!
85
If you can't or won't sit next to someone representative of more than half of the general population, charter your own plane.
113
Religious diversity helps make America special. In the privacy of our home we can practice our religion to our hearts content. I know Vietnamese people who have temples inside their small home. I respect it by removing my shoes. I won't pray to their Buddha and they offer just once. I demur and everyone starts chatting happily. But I leave a few dollars for Buddha. It is respect going both ways.
In a public plane though, no religion has a right to impose it upon others which is what they are doing by asking another passenger to move because of a gender conflict.
In a public plane though, no religion has a right to impose it upon others which is what they are doing by asking another passenger to move because of a gender conflict.
79
What harm has this man (the Hasidic Jew) done? None! He simply requested to change seats because he felt "uncomfortable". Is this so wrong? I think not, and I am not Jewish, well in a way I am since I am Christian. This is part of the man's faith tradition, and obviously he was sincere. Stop persecuting people over and over again, be it Jewish, or Catholic, there are many haters out there who simply can not tolerate some of our strong held beliefs. I too at times would feel uncomfortable sitting near someone...even if it has nothing to do with my faith, why should he be made out to be unreasonable? I could think of many other things that would be uncomfortable, but oh, I forgot, the other things might be considered/are "Legal!"
18
Your "strong held beliefs" end at the edge of my airplane seat. Deal with it.
25
No - the man demanded that the woman move, therefore imposing his religious views on somene else.
So "sincerity" is what counts here? Suppose someone sincerely doesn't want to sit next to someone of another race - is that OK? Or an openly gay couple? Or a short person? Would you say it's OK for that person to demand a seat change to accommodate his/her sincerely held belief that those people are distasteful seatmates? If not, why does religion get a pass?
It seems fashionable these days for religious people to claim, sanctimoniously, that they are being persecuted. Meanwhile, they browbeat everyone around them with their "sincerely held" beliefs, ad nauseum. Just keep your religion to yourselves; leave other people in peace; and watch how quickly life improves for everyone.
So "sincerity" is what counts here? Suppose someone sincerely doesn't want to sit next to someone of another race - is that OK? Or an openly gay couple? Or a short person? Would you say it's OK for that person to demand a seat change to accommodate his/her sincerely held belief that those people are distasteful seatmates? If not, why does religion get a pass?
It seems fashionable these days for religious people to claim, sanctimoniously, that they are being persecuted. Meanwhile, they browbeat everyone around them with their "sincerely held" beliefs, ad nauseum. Just keep your religion to yourselves; leave other people in peace; and watch how quickly life improves for everyone.
130
It's neither reasonable nor responsible when a member of a religion has to interact with, and be around, people who aren't members of the same religion, in public places - planes, trains, buses, etc. If you're part of society, you have to be part of society, and not expect the rest of society to change, bend, etc. itself to meet your beliefs. Sorry....
59
Anyone deliberately holding up a plane for more than 60 seconds because they don't like the person they're sitting next to should be considered a nuisance and removed from the aircraft immediately, no refund.
162
I would simply refuse to move. If a man doesn't want to sit next to a woman, then he will be the one moving. I reserved my seat and I will be sitting in my seat or an upgraded seat in First or Business class. The man's comfort or religious desires are not my concern. I wouldn't budge for any religious or other bigoted reason.
127
The person who has the problem is the one who should find another seat or request to sit with men only before boarding. It's unreasonable to hold up a plane while demanding that others change seats.
89
The problem, as I see it, isn't so much that the orthodox man was trying to comply with his religious beliefs as the airline expecting the woman to move for this man???? And to inconvenience herself for free?
Why should she have to move? She paid for her seat and is entitled to sit there. She doesn't have the problem. The orthodox man had the problem - let him and the airline find him a suitable seat without displacing an innocent woman, or, tell the man to get on another flight where he can sit next to 'anyone but a woman'. Offer the woman compensation for her inconvenience.
The problem is the airline and their method of 'solving' the problem.
Why should she have to move? She paid for her seat and is entitled to sit there. She doesn't have the problem. The orthodox man had the problem - let him and the airline find him a suitable seat without displacing an innocent woman, or, tell the man to get on another flight where he can sit next to 'anyone but a woman'. Offer the woman compensation for her inconvenience.
The problem is the airline and their method of 'solving' the problem.
112
There must be some approved carry-on "device" which would provide sufficient separation between a "religious" man and whoever is seated next to him. All kinds of accommodations are made to allow for following rules and still living with modern requirements. Where is SkyMall when it could be really useful!
22
Welcome to the secular world were you have to deal with people that are different then you!
65
This is not a new issue. 30 years ago when I was a young tourist in Israel I made the mistake of sitting next to an older Orthodox man on a bus as there were no other vacant seats. To my astonishment he immediately began shouting at me. I had no idea what he was saying or what I'd done wrong but it seemed everyone else on the bus did. Several secular men jumped up and offered to trade seats with me - explaining ruefully and with evident embarrassment that Orthodox men cannot sit next to an unrelated woman. I was grateful for the explanation, and dutifully switched seats. The Orthodox man did not acknowledge or thank me or any of the other passengers for accommodating him. I laughed it off but truth be told I was slightly offended that he so obviously considered me unworthy, unequal and unwelcome.
143
Maybe next time he should fly El Al and leave people who are not bothering anyone alone.
49
The last paragraph is the kicker: these men don’t "want to be tempted when" their wives aren't there. "Tempted" to do what -- accidentally touch a woman (heavens!) or perhaps make inappropriate advances to her?
If the former, they should get over it. As one reader wrote, it's the 21st century -- time to get over such pettiness.
If the latter, seriously? Have these men looked in a mirror lately (or is that against their religious beliefs too)? What modern woman outside their own religious community would welcome or otherwise be interested in their attention? Even many women within their communities resist contact with these men.
Note to Hasidic men: get real!
If the former, they should get over it. As one reader wrote, it's the 21st century -- time to get over such pettiness.
If the latter, seriously? Have these men looked in a mirror lately (or is that against their religious beliefs too)? What modern woman outside their own religious community would welcome or otherwise be interested in their attention? Even many women within their communities resist contact with these men.
Note to Hasidic men: get real!
115
Those who seem to feel the orthodox Jewish behavior on this issue is "sexist" really are missing the point.
If the motivation of the Orthodox man here was that the woman seated next to him was somehow "unclean" or beneath his dignity and not worthy of being touched by him, then yes, that would be sexist.
But that's obviously not what's happening here. A hint of this comes from Rabbi Shafran's words: "... it was acceptable for a Jewish man to sit next to a woman on a subway or bus so long as there was no intention to seek sexual pleasure from any incidental contact." The motivating factor is fear of temptation as a result of physical contact. In other words, it's weakness of the man that causes his desire to avoid temptation, not some denigration of the woman sitting next to him.
In this light, it would have been a kindness (and common sense) to accommodate the request, if one could do so, but ultimately the responsibility lies with the one making the request. If he's that serious about the problem, as someone else has pointed out, he could always buy the seat next to him.
If the motivation of the Orthodox man here was that the woman seated next to him was somehow "unclean" or beneath his dignity and not worthy of being touched by him, then yes, that would be sexist.
But that's obviously not what's happening here. A hint of this comes from Rabbi Shafran's words: "... it was acceptable for a Jewish man to sit next to a woman on a subway or bus so long as there was no intention to seek sexual pleasure from any incidental contact." The motivating factor is fear of temptation as a result of physical contact. In other words, it's weakness of the man that causes his desire to avoid temptation, not some denigration of the woman sitting next to him.
In this light, it would have been a kindness (and common sense) to accommodate the request, if one could do so, but ultimately the responsibility lies with the one making the request. If he's that serious about the problem, as someone else has pointed out, he could always buy the seat next to him.
20
That's the point: Women just want to fly home or to work or whatever, not be projected upon as part of someone's "temptation problem". Ugh. Grown up men already know this. This is ridiculous.
100
In the 21st century this kind of behavior is bizarre to say the least. If people can't conform to the normal behavior of a society, they should not live within that society.
65
If its one person, its really not a big deal to satisfy their religiosity. But we recently traveled to Florida, on a flight held up because there were three orthodox families, each with 5 girls, who didn't buy their seats together. They never were able to seat all men next to the women/girls, but got close enough to be comfortable.
The other exception to being reasonable is when extra money is paid for certain seats and you are asked to move.
The other exception to being reasonable is when extra money is paid for certain seats and you are asked to move.
14
The men could be issued vertical seat boards that isolate their seat from their armrest and sew themselves into a bag like they did in the "Old Puritan Days" when a boy had to sleep with a girl in her bed. But they also need to use self restraint.
29
To me, this is more about airline travel than religion. We all have our mental lists of what constitutes an undesirable seat mate. But you buy your ticket and you take your chances. I do know that if I tried to keep a plane from taking off for any reason whatsoever, I'd be removed from the aircraft. And I expect my airline to handle this appropriately. Post policies on the web site, make announcements before boarding begins, let passengers know if their requests will be met before they get on the plane, and promptly remove anyone who interferes with the flight.
And a note to those who demand that someone else move for them: it's your issue--YOU move. Quickly.
And a note to those who demand that someone else move for them: it's your issue--YOU move. Quickly.
98
Our Constitution mandates a separation of church and state. In the absence of a recognized place of worship - of which a plane is not - any person is free to sit where she/he chooses. Non-pressured acquiescence to a requested seat change is also an expression of free choice and it is nice to see some people exhibiting such civility. Why don't the airlines provide "set- asides" seats for such accommodations?
9
I work for an airline. We don't do this because we'd be holding seats for an issue that happens infrequently. Second, to do so would be to show preference for a group. We do not put aside seats for any type passenger. And if someone asks if they are seated next to a woman, we can't divulge that information. Basically, passengers must realize that the airplane is a public space available to anyone who pays the fare. Because of that, you accept the idea that you may be sitting next to any type of person.
78
If the men feel like this then I think that it's their responsibility to move not the women. The guy who asked to swap out from in-between the two girls was a lot more respectful than the men who said to the women I've got a problem sitting next to you, you need to swap with someone else. Everybody gets stuck next to people they'd rather not be sitting by on planes but I think unless they've done something out of line it's not their responsibility to move.
I would be disinclined to have specific male/female seating because I think any organised segregation is a bad thing for an all inclusive society, any.
I would be disinclined to have specific male/female seating because I think any organised segregation is a bad thing for an all inclusive society, any.
41
I think it's clear from the comments that ultra-ortho men with seating laments aren't going to get much sympathy on an airplane anytime soon, and should start implementing the practice of always 1) buying an extra seat, 2) traveling with your wife or daughter, or 3) traveling with a male non-ultra-ortho buffer companion. Sorted.
81
So long ago my son was about 10 when he asked me "Why do so many religions seem to hate women, mom?" Indeed.
135
WOW! Nearly 3000 comments on this article, most showing disbelief or outrage at the expectations of religious fundamentalists.Can it be that Americans are finally showing an appropriate response to fanatics who attempt to impose private beliefs and practices on the rest of us in public spaces governed by secular law?
The US is perhaps the most religiously observant country among its peers in wealthy, industrialized nations. Our Constitution offers broad protection to private thought and belief. But once we move to grant space in the public sphere for the expression of private religious beliefs in practices which limit the competing legal rights of others, we are moving down a slippery slope. If ultra-orthodox Jewish men can be permitted to hold up the departure of a commercial airliner, how far are we from their (or their orthodox Muslim or Christian counterparts) demanding more? How far are we from further breaching the wall of separation between church and state our founders insisted on?
Not very far, if you examine the power of the Christian right to erode ACA and women's rights to legal abortion and other health care and the equal protection of LGBT citizens.
My cynical suspicion is that today's flood of responses is based on the fact that more people see themselves as possible victims of religious bullying on airlines than as offended parties who can't buy a wedding cake.
But it doesn't matter if this encourages real push-back to bigotry in religious garb.
The US is perhaps the most religiously observant country among its peers in wealthy, industrialized nations. Our Constitution offers broad protection to private thought and belief. But once we move to grant space in the public sphere for the expression of private religious beliefs in practices which limit the competing legal rights of others, we are moving down a slippery slope. If ultra-orthodox Jewish men can be permitted to hold up the departure of a commercial airliner, how far are we from their (or their orthodox Muslim or Christian counterparts) demanding more? How far are we from further breaching the wall of separation between church and state our founders insisted on?
Not very far, if you examine the power of the Christian right to erode ACA and women's rights to legal abortion and other health care and the equal protection of LGBT citizens.
My cynical suspicion is that today's flood of responses is based on the fact that more people see themselves as possible victims of religious bullying on airlines than as offended parties who can't buy a wedding cake.
But it doesn't matter if this encourages real push-back to bigotry in religious garb.
79
As a woman, I experienced a similar situation on a flight from Hong Kong to SFO. As I walked down the aisle to my seat and began to place my travel paraphernalia on the middle seat, the Buddhist monk in orange robes sitting in the window seat began to yell at me. It took a minute to realize that he didn't want me to sit next to him because I was a woman. He kept yelling "No woman, no woman!" My husband, who had the aisle seat, quickly suggested to me that I take the aisle seat and let him sit next to the monk. I was irritated; his behavior was so outlandish, and offended me. This was a public space, and it seemed to me that if the monk had a problem with who sat next to him, he should buy two seats and leave the one next to him empty. Meanwhile, the flight attendant, a Chinese woman, was really annoyed, and said tersely to me, "Ooh, these stupid monks," and thanked me for my generosity in moving to the aisle. I then settled down for my 8 hr nap, which of course then caused a real problem for the monk, who had to use the restroom. So while I was sleeping, my ever generous husband helped the monk climb on top of the back of my seat, so he could use the facilities.
One year later, flying from San Francisco to Taiwan, I walk down the aisle to my seat, and, yes, there was another Buddhist monk. I about flipped. In contrast to monk number one though, this fellow had a warm personality and couldn't have cared less if I sat next to him. We had a pleasant 10 hr flight.
One year later, flying from San Francisco to Taiwan, I walk down the aisle to my seat, and, yes, there was another Buddhist monk. I about flipped. In contrast to monk number one though, this fellow had a warm personality and couldn't have cared less if I sat next to him. We had a pleasant 10 hr flight.
59
I've experienced the separation man and women in many circumstances having been married to a Jew who had Orthodox relatives. . . and each time I am appalled and infuriated by this misogynistic display. It infuriates me that young Jewish women allow themselves to be treated in such a demeaning and demoralizing manner by these men.
In a million years I would never give up the seat that I purchased on a plane to one of these men. . however.. have you seen these men? They are the ones who should be embarrassed by being the "unclean" ones. . . seriously now!!! If in fact a Orthodox Jew were to sit down next to me on a plane.. that could potentially be a long long flight.
In a million years I would never give up the seat that I purchased on a plane to one of these men. . however.. have you seen these men? They are the ones who should be embarrassed by being the "unclean" ones. . . seriously now!!! If in fact a Orthodox Jew were to sit down next to me on a plane.. that could potentially be a long long flight.
63
Some have commented that there are weightier matters with which to concern ourselves than whether certain misogynistic men use religious excuses to demand that women move. I think this issue struck a collective nerve since we are bombarded with news of so-called religious freedom laws that protect the ability of the self-identified religious among us to impose their belief systems on the rest of us. It got old a long time ago.
62
Hide it under the cloak of religious belief, but it's still Bully Behavior. Imagine the stir a Black or Muslim man would cause if he obstructed an airplane aisle; if he demanded a seat separate from whites, women, you name it. I'm betting that he would be removed from the plane pronto and arrested. Why is this particular situation, this particular group any different? I am shocked, shocked that the airlines tolerate and reinforce this sexist and rude behavior in this our secular society! (Last time I checked, we were a secular society, despite the "under God" pronouncements in government.) Again, this speaks volumes about entitlement: acquiesce to my demands or else. There are better ways for the Haredi to handle this situation that do not infringe upon the rights of women. But then the Haredi would first have to acknowledge that women have rights, that we deserve respect. And, among other things, the airplane seat of our choice!
74
This article definitely hits home. This happened to me years ago when I was just a college student flying from New York to Israel for my birthright trip. I was seated next to an orthodox man who wouldn't sit next to me. But instead of politely asking me to move, as some of the men did in the stories shared in this story, this man got about 5 of his male orthodox friends on the plane to all come over to my seat and gang up on me. They bullied me into switching seats. I was 18 years old and had no idea what to do but just abide by their demands. It made me feel helpless and attacked. I understand religious freedom and cultural sensitivity. But that day I felt like the victim.
85
@Lilly
Your experience is not unique.
Many years ago as as young woman traveling in Israel, I made the mistake of walking through the ultra-Orthodox neighborhood of Meah She'arim in Jerusalem. I wasn't stupid or oblivious to custom: I was wearing what I mistakenly thought was sufficiently modest garb (a slightly below knee length skirt and a short sleeved t-shirt in the blistering heat, an outfit that had already passed muster in conservative India, the Vatican, and other similar venues).
But my outfit didn't pass muster there. A Haredi man walking past me on the sidewalk landed a vicious punch on my arm that almost knocked off my feet and left a nasty bruise that lasted for weeks.
While masking as pious lovers of a deity, all of these regressive ultra orthodox religions are rooted in misogyny, and the behavior of these Haredi men is in the same category as that of ultra orthodox Muslims who want to keep their women in veils or in purdah, or fundamentalist Christians and others who want to keep contraception and, if needed, abortion away from women.
A plague on all of them. They can believe what they want. But they can't bring the practice of their beliefs into the public sphere in a secular democracy.
Your experience is not unique.
Many years ago as as young woman traveling in Israel, I made the mistake of walking through the ultra-Orthodox neighborhood of Meah She'arim in Jerusalem. I wasn't stupid or oblivious to custom: I was wearing what I mistakenly thought was sufficiently modest garb (a slightly below knee length skirt and a short sleeved t-shirt in the blistering heat, an outfit that had already passed muster in conservative India, the Vatican, and other similar venues).
But my outfit didn't pass muster there. A Haredi man walking past me on the sidewalk landed a vicious punch on my arm that almost knocked off my feet and left a nasty bruise that lasted for weeks.
While masking as pious lovers of a deity, all of these regressive ultra orthodox religions are rooted in misogyny, and the behavior of these Haredi men is in the same category as that of ultra orthodox Muslims who want to keep their women in veils or in purdah, or fundamentalist Christians and others who want to keep contraception and, if needed, abortion away from women.
A plague on all of them. They can believe what they want. But they can't bring the practice of their beliefs into the public sphere in a secular democracy.
20
Although the writer of this article says he contacted the airlines, they are the ones wimping out in their refusal to deal with these unreasonable demands. They need to issue a policy statement which clearly states they will NOT bow to the self-imposed, disruptive practices of this 'religion'. And then stick to it. After all when in the airport, a refusal to be X-rayed is greeted by: "Do you want to fly today?" by TSA.
"Do you want to fly today? Then sit down in the seat you purchased or leave the airplane."
The airlines are putting their staff members in a no-win situation, having to settle such petty demands. If people wish to travel on planes they have to abide by the rules for all of us or make their own accommodations.
At the core of this is Control - Control by the rabbis; passed down to Control by the individuals making the demands. Because after all, they can't be relied upon to Control themselves or their lustful minds when sitting next to a mid-60s woman.
I would switch my seat to accommodate a medical situation or allowing a child to sit with a parent. I am so glad my parents didn't raise me to rely on control by a religion which has rules for every breath, but to be considerate, reasonable, and able to think for myself. Too bad the Orthodox can't trust their members.
"Do you want to fly today? Then sit down in the seat you purchased or leave the airplane."
The airlines are putting their staff members in a no-win situation, having to settle such petty demands. If people wish to travel on planes they have to abide by the rules for all of us or make their own accommodations.
At the core of this is Control - Control by the rabbis; passed down to Control by the individuals making the demands. Because after all, they can't be relied upon to Control themselves or their lustful minds when sitting next to a mid-60s woman.
I would switch my seat to accommodate a medical situation or allowing a child to sit with a parent. I am so glad my parents didn't raise me to rely on control by a religion which has rules for every breath, but to be considerate, reasonable, and able to think for myself. Too bad the Orthodox can't trust their members.
58
I can't recall ever seeing nearly 3000 comments to one article. What is more astonishing (and reassuring) it that essentially all are in complete agreement. Maybe the ultra-orthodox will get the message??
52
Not a chance. G-d's on their side, and he wants your seat!
24
I am sure they will get the message. It is an old one. And it is full of hate.
5
@Judith Bell: Oh Please! It is the orthodox Jewish men who are displaying hatred and misogyny towards women. They (and you for supporting them) should feel chastised and ashamed of their bronze age ideas and behavior.
46
Again and again we see that Christianity, Islam, and Judaism are deeply tied to human sexuality. I should think that spiritual growth or preparation of souls for an afterlife would not be thus connected. Maybe these religions are really all about male domination, female subjugation, and other-gender exclusion -- with the spiritual stuff just frosting on a ugly cake.
49
Two thousand, eight hundred and sixty comments on this article and counting. What it comes down to is this: in the year 2015, women's bodies continue to be a battleground.
57
Then where are the comments on Mona Elthaway's op ed on the hijab? Or on the editorial about abortion in Kansas. I know commentators here like to tell themselves they are taking a stand on women's rights. But they are only interested in these rights as infringed by Jews. This is a pattern on other issues as well.
3
@Judith Bell
I kinda sorta agree with you, but not completely. While some of the massive push back here against the bullying guys with the beards and black hats (*) probably does stem from antisemitic bias, I think most of it rises from the fact that many many more people can imagine themselves as potential victims of the oppressive incursion of private religious belief into public spaces when it comes to seating on an airplane than in relation to the burgeoning restriction of legal abortion rights, the wearing of the hijab, being refused the purchase of a wedding cake, or other areas where people assert private religious beliefs in public in direct contradiction to the laws of our secular society.
And if a number of people commenting here are motivated by their bias against Jews, so what? What's important is that people in the U.S. pay attention to the ways in which our most basic freedoms are eroded by caving to the demands of religious orthodoxy.
(*) BTW I'm Jewish and I feel the same negativity towards the Haredim as I do to every other religious fanatic.
Beliefs are one thing. Practice is another.
I kinda sorta agree with you, but not completely. While some of the massive push back here against the bullying guys with the beards and black hats (*) probably does stem from antisemitic bias, I think most of it rises from the fact that many many more people can imagine themselves as potential victims of the oppressive incursion of private religious belief into public spaces when it comes to seating on an airplane than in relation to the burgeoning restriction of legal abortion rights, the wearing of the hijab, being refused the purchase of a wedding cake, or other areas where people assert private religious beliefs in public in direct contradiction to the laws of our secular society.
And if a number of people commenting here are motivated by their bias against Jews, so what? What's important is that people in the U.S. pay attention to the ways in which our most basic freedoms are eroded by caving to the demands of religious orthodoxy.
(*) BTW I'm Jewish and I feel the same negativity towards the Haredim as I do to every other religious fanatic.
Beliefs are one thing. Practice is another.
18
A lot of the commenters seem to be Jews participating in a family dispute, or saying, "Those Haredi men don't speak for me."
4
This is the same thing as a gluten intolerant person ordering a pizza and then when it arrives complaining that the crust has gluten in it and they can't eat it.
Either go to a gluten-free pizzeria (i.e.; charter you own group flight), make arrangements beforehand to get a gluten-free crust (i.e.; book the seat next to you), or don't go out for pizza/stay home.
Either go to a gluten-free pizzeria (i.e.; charter you own group flight), make arrangements beforehand to get a gluten-free crust (i.e.; book the seat next to you), or don't go out for pizza/stay home.
37
I quit flying years ago because of the hassles involved with security and the incredible shrinking seat space problem. I'm glad I don't have to deal with this problem. No orthodox Jew, or anyone else for that matter, should be indulged to the point of delaying a flight. This is truly political correctness run amok. Give 'em an inch and they'll take a mile.
38
When I fly on a plane operated by a company that is permitted to use US airports, I should not have to encounter any gender-based discrimination. This article was so upsetting to me that I was thrilled when I came across this one this morning by Jimmy Carter about losing his religion for equality: http://www.theage.com.au/federal-politics/losing-my-religion-for-equalit...
49
Thank you for this link. And thank you Jimmy Carter for continuing to be a model of the potential of humans to grow and evolve their entire lives.
5
We've seen a number of articles in the Times over the last year or so that centered on the ultra-Orthodox (Jew and Muslim) and Evangelical Fundamentalists. All seem to get wrapped up in the strictures outlined in the Old Testament. Ironically, all have way more in common that any will admit. Beyond some small details how much different is Halal from Kosher?
What all distinctly have in common is an absolute need to impose their rules on the rest of society. That we see translating into actions that vary from destroying a country's ancient cultural sites as impure (Taliban and Isis), demonstrably dangerous circumcision practices or (as is the focus of this article) a strict externalized isolation of women and lets not forget the current need to find biblical justification to not bake a cake or take a photo of someone different from them. If this were a Venn diagram there's about a 90% overlap between these groups. Differences in methods aside, the intents are the same - all of society must bend to accommodate them - their actions toward the rest of us not a bit. All three groups utterly believe in the infallibility of their own brands of righteousness and it shows in how they treat outsiders. It's just sad. Really, really sad.
What all distinctly have in common is an absolute need to impose their rules on the rest of society. That we see translating into actions that vary from destroying a country's ancient cultural sites as impure (Taliban and Isis), demonstrably dangerous circumcision practices or (as is the focus of this article) a strict externalized isolation of women and lets not forget the current need to find biblical justification to not bake a cake or take a photo of someone different from them. If this were a Venn diagram there's about a 90% overlap between these groups. Differences in methods aside, the intents are the same - all of society must bend to accommodate them - their actions toward the rest of us not a bit. All three groups utterly believe in the infallibility of their own brands of righteousness and it shows in how they treat outsiders. It's just sad. Really, really sad.
63
Truly amazing, yet very sad. Despite the fact that they are eerily similar in their approach to the rest of the world, they have been at war with each other for decades. Maybe they should band together and form their own country.
15
@JustWondering
It's more than "really, really sad". Acceding to the demands of these groups is not legal when what they are demanding is a restriction of the rights of others.
It's more than "really, really sad". Acceding to the demands of these groups is not legal when what they are demanding is a restriction of the rights of others.
19
If a passenger who believes in the racist "Christian Identity" religion says he does not want to sit next to a black or other non-white passenger, would people feel obliged to kowtow to him? These Orthodox men and people of any other religion with strict separation of the sexes know what public transportation is like. If they find their fellow passengers so repugnant, they can find other means of transportation.
54
In what way are the demands by orthodox Jewish men that airlines accommodate their private beliefs and practices - resulting in inconveniencing or insulting women, not to mention an airplane full of other passengers - different from similar demands by true believers in other fundamentalist religions? What they ask is that private religious belief should trump public law in a secular society. The First Amendment guarantees to all their right to believe as they wish. It doesn't guarantee them a special seat on any airliner, or the right to ignore the constitutional rights of others.
An airline is a public accommodation, and as such, it must treat all customers equally. It's amazing that United Airlines allowed an ultra-Orthodox man to stand in the aisle "refusing to move and delaying the departure for 15 to 20 minutes". Any other passenger not attempting to shield obstructive behavior under an umbrella of "religious belief" would have been ejected, and possibly arrested.
Caving to the expectations of religious fundamentalists that the public must bend to their private beliefs in the public sphere is a slippery slope. We should be no more sympathetic to these Haredi men (btw I'm Jewish!) than we are to other religious fanatics who refuse to sell their cakes or flowers to gay or lesbian couples, or who deny service to any other group whom they deem "impure" or a threat to their private beliefs.
Render unto Caesar, etc. etc.
An airline is a public accommodation, and as such, it must treat all customers equally. It's amazing that United Airlines allowed an ultra-Orthodox man to stand in the aisle "refusing to move and delaying the departure for 15 to 20 minutes". Any other passenger not attempting to shield obstructive behavior under an umbrella of "religious belief" would have been ejected, and possibly arrested.
Caving to the expectations of religious fundamentalists that the public must bend to their private beliefs in the public sphere is a slippery slope. We should be no more sympathetic to these Haredi men (btw I'm Jewish!) than we are to other religious fanatics who refuse to sell their cakes or flowers to gay or lesbian couples, or who deny service to any other group whom they deem "impure" or a threat to their private beliefs.
Render unto Caesar, etc. etc.
65
There is also the option of flying business class. In europe, at least, there is aplenty of room between the seats.
17
I assidiously avoid flying El Al because of the Haredim (Ultra-Orthodox). They think they own the plane. They are incredibly disruptive. In addition to hassles over seating arrangements they insist on blocking the aisles when they have to pray, even though its compromises not just convenience, but safety. They tend to have big families (5-6 kids is not unusual), and the kids are not infrequently short on discipline.
For me the last straw was about 15 years ago. It was a Boeing 757 or 767, which did not have personal entertainment systems, but large screens every 6 or so rows. The film being screened did not meet their standards of modesty, so they started blocking the screens by covering them with their long coats. Passengers who objected were bullied (verbally and physically). the staff, aware of the Haredi parties' political clout refused to intervene. It ended only when I and 4 other passengers decided we ere not going to be bullied, and beat up Haredim who attacked us after we removed their coats and pushed them away when they tried trying to put the coats back on the screens. Since then I only fly El Al if I have no other choice.
It's time airlines got tough with these people, and tell them that if they don't like flying conditions, they can either fly 1st class or swim across the Atlantic.
For me the last straw was about 15 years ago. It was a Boeing 757 or 767, which did not have personal entertainment systems, but large screens every 6 or so rows. The film being screened did not meet their standards of modesty, so they started blocking the screens by covering them with their long coats. Passengers who objected were bullied (verbally and physically). the staff, aware of the Haredi parties' political clout refused to intervene. It ended only when I and 4 other passengers decided we ere not going to be bullied, and beat up Haredim who attacked us after we removed their coats and pushed them away when they tried trying to put the coats back on the screens. Since then I only fly El Al if I have no other choice.
It's time airlines got tough with these people, and tell them that if they don't like flying conditions, they can either fly 1st class or swim across the Atlantic.
54
How comfortable we become over time. I am sure the victims of the Holocaust would have sat anywhere on a plane to get out of Nazi Germany. Every time I get on a plane, I have one prayer, that we all get to our destination in one piece.
16
I had not known this about El Al. All I knew about them was that they were the national airline and had good security. Stories like this put me off flying them if I ever go to Israel.
5
The flap may have taken place because of El Al's reputation for accommodating Jews, or because it is the airline of the nation that was founded to welcome Jews. It seems to be an extension of the battle for the soul of Israel.
5
If I received any such request, I would ask: "Did you just acquire this religious belief within the past two hours? No? Then tell me: Why did you fail to make appropriate arrangements ahead of time to assure that this entirely predictable conflict was avoided?"
The first job of an adult is to look after himself and take care of his own needs. If the problem is entirely foreseeable, and yet the traveler hasn't done what he can within his own power to try to avoid it, he signals that either (a) the issue really isn't a matter of absolute urgency; (b) he is a flake; or (c) he is a selfish bully executing a conscious, pre-meditated strategy of externalizing the costs of his "religious necessity" onto others.
In either case, his demand for special accommodation loses legitimacy. A polite refusal -- "I regret, sir, that I am unable to accommodate your request" -- would be the scrupulously correct response.
Then crank up the tunes on the noise-canceling headphones, don sunglasses, and await take-off.
The first job of an adult is to look after himself and take care of his own needs. If the problem is entirely foreseeable, and yet the traveler hasn't done what he can within his own power to try to avoid it, he signals that either (a) the issue really isn't a matter of absolute urgency; (b) he is a flake; or (c) he is a selfish bully executing a conscious, pre-meditated strategy of externalizing the costs of his "religious necessity" onto others.
In either case, his demand for special accommodation loses legitimacy. A polite refusal -- "I regret, sir, that I am unable to accommodate your request" -- would be the scrupulously correct response.
Then crank up the tunes on the noise-canceling headphones, don sunglasses, and await take-off.
44
Their beliefs are valid. They have every right to ask for a different seat. These are their core principles after all. So are the opinions and principles of the woman being asked to move. I would not move if someone asked me for the reasons in this article. It is my basic belief that I am worth just as much and that I am not tempting every man I happen to brush past. Her rights and core principles matter too. In this situation it is the Orthodox Jewish man making a very specific request and the solution should be his responsibility. Airlines can accommodate as they see fit but for the greater question I agree with most of the comments. If people are so concerned with contact or the other gender then perhaps buy and extra seat. The world is constantly changing. This argument is a tug-of-war and may very well never be won by either side. Instead we must find balance and a way to work together.
20
As far as I know, there is nothing in the bible that says men are even ALLOWED on airplanes. So riding on an airplane is indeed heresy. For ALL religions. Except, of course, if it is a suicide bombing mission. We have to make SOME exceptions.
I wonder how Indiana would treat these cases?
I wonder how Indiana would treat these cases?
26
Personally, If asked to move by an orthodox man, I would to torn between not wanting to give in a sexist ideology and using the ideology as an excuse to move away from a filthy beard that makes me want to vomit.
39
As far as I'm concerned there's only one commandment, namely "Be a mensch at all times." These guys fall very far short of that.
39
My question is that if the Orthodox Jew didn't want to sit beside the woman, why didn't he move away, why did she move?
32
Why condone apartheid by allowing men to specify the gender of their seat partner when making a reservation? How is this different from not sitting next to black people at a lunch counter, refusing admission or membership to Jews, or assuming every Muslim is a terrorist?
We cannot both decry this bigotry and also accommodate it. Just say no. No changing seats, no staying silent when you hear the slurs, no special laws for "religious freedom." Stop. Enough.
We cannot both decry this bigotry and also accommodate it. Just say no. No changing seats, no staying silent when you hear the slurs, no special laws for "religious freedom." Stop. Enough.
58
A few years ago on a fully booked flight from London to NY there were an number of Hasidic men, one of whom refused to sit in his assigned seat unless the woman next to his seat moved. He refused to accept another seat when a few passengers offered to switch, insisting that his assigned seat was the only one he's take and insisted that the women move. After holding the flight up for some minutes, the flight attendant informed him that he had to take one of two choices, either take the aforementioned seat or deplane and wait for a later flight. He grudgingly took the seat and caused no further disturbances. The other passengers applauded the flight attendant for bringing an end to the stand-off.
72
Kudos to the flight attendant!
6
Wow. Now that's the very definition of "arrogance." To quietly ask someone to trade seats with you is one thing. To demand that someone else move -- wow.
3
Stay home. That's the only advice I can give. As a Jew, I appreciate that the ultra-orthodox don't proselytize ... but that's exactly what they're doing here when they demand compliance to rules that America doesn't follow ...
42
I am a secular Jew. When private beliefs interfere with the public world it is time for the Ultra Orthodox to charter the Haredi Express. Thus they will be without temptation and with kosher food and the rest of us can fly the friendly skies without their narishkeiten.
45
I don't see kosher food to be the same issue at all. Who's being insulted if the passenger next to me is eating a kosher meal? Am I supposed to take offense if he's eating a vegan meal?
1
For Orthodox Jews this should be a non-issue.
A plane ticket is a privately purchased private space. An Orthodox Jew is not freely choosing to sit next to a woman in a public space.
As such, there is no religious conflict and the man should just grow up and sit in silence.
Airline companies do not 'owe' this man his choice. They might reasonably work with people, but it should never be obligatory.
A plane ticket is a privately purchased private space. An Orthodox Jew is not freely choosing to sit next to a woman in a public space.
As such, there is no religious conflict and the man should just grow up and sit in silence.
Airline companies do not 'owe' this man his choice. They might reasonably work with people, but it should never be obligatory.
34
Nothing infuriates me more then the actions of the men described in this article. When you voluntarily book space on a mode of transportation that is available to the public, a passenger must expect that sitting next to a woman is very probable. An airplane is a public space. You can't insist that others conform to your religious beliefs in that public space. This is not discrimination. There is a difference between respecting someone's beliefs and acquiescing to their narrow religious demands in that public space. If these men are so concerned about straying from their marriages with a random female passenger in an airplane, they need to take stock of themselves. And what would ever make them think a random female passenger would WANT to have sex with them? It's kind of a moot point.
I work for a major international airline. I have had requests like ones made by the Hasidic men. I explain that in fairness to people of all beliefs, I can make exceptions for none.
I work for a major international airline. I have had requests like ones made by the Hasidic men. I explain that in fairness to people of all beliefs, I can make exceptions for none.
44
The man who was standing in the aisle holding up the planes take-off should have been escorted off of the plane by air marshals. This is what would happen if anyone had held up the plane for any other reason. If a bigot didn’t want to sit next to a minority or if a devout Muslim didn’t want to sit next to a woman who wasn’t wearing an hijab, the airlines would have said that the man should have paid for more than one seat if he wanted to control who sat next to him. Airlines try to accommodate reasonable special requests if possible but they want the requests to be made ahead of time so that they know what to expect. In the future, women should not give up the seats that they’ve reserved and paid for.
35
I was asked by the traveling companion of a monk wearing a saffron robe to change my aisle seat so the monk did not have to sit next to me. It was a Friday evening after a long week, it was going to be a long flight, and I had booked ahead to ensure that I had an aisle seat. The traveling companion explained that the monk's religion forbade him to be in close quarters with a woman. I'm all for multiculturalism and respect for others' beliefs, but this was a Rosa Parks moment for me and I refused. No one's religious beliefs trump my right not to be treated as if I have cooties.
61
Amen, Suzanne!
10
I find it ridiculous that people will denounce Islam as inherently sexist and violent yet not even acknowledge the misogyny ingrained in the encounters described here. While there is something to be said for trying to accommodate religious views, what is the airline attendant supposed to do when two people of conflicting personal beliefs sit next to each other? Is my personal belief in my own importance as a woman and human being less important than another person's religious belief that they shouldn't sit next to a particular individual?
24
I simply couldn't endanger the religious worthiness of an Orthodox Jew who would have the temerity to ask me to give up my seat. I would not endanger him even if I spontaneously burst into flames. From any rational point of view, such a person is a hole in people-space and ought to be totally disregarded. Next I suppose you'll tell me (a Jew, by the way) that I am anti-Semitic.
15
Any man who is tempted to impure thoughts by sitting next to a woman has a problem, and the problem is in his head and needs to be fixed there. Similarly, the Saudi religious police who punish women for displaying too much ankle need to move the veil into their minds rather than changing the world so their minds do not need to be disciplined.
Regulating the external world so it does not offer any cause to impure thoughts is impossible in any case; it is as difficult as obeying the command not to think of a duck. The more obtrusive the regulations are, the more they point to the impure thoughts they are supposed to prevent. If not thinking of a duck involves not thinking of anything that looks like a duck, then all mental images will be examined for possible ducklikeness and the thought process becomes one of constantly dancing around the d--- without touching it, and is thereby dominated by the forbidden thought object.
Not being tempted to impure thoughts becomes dwelling on temptation, and shows God's cleverness in setting things up so we are punished by our own stupidity.
Regulating the external world so it does not offer any cause to impure thoughts is impossible in any case; it is as difficult as obeying the command not to think of a duck. The more obtrusive the regulations are, the more they point to the impure thoughts they are supposed to prevent. If not thinking of a duck involves not thinking of anything that looks like a duck, then all mental images will be examined for possible ducklikeness and the thought process becomes one of constantly dancing around the d--- without touching it, and is thereby dominated by the forbidden thought object.
Not being tempted to impure thoughts becomes dwelling on temptation, and shows God's cleverness in setting things up so we are punished by our own stupidity.
29
I'm a Jewish woman and this kind of behavior sickens me as do the customs of the Ultra Orthodox. It is so sexist. So off-putting.
39
I find myself disappointed that the author of this article didn't connect the described behavior to similar acts of intolerance, such as the recently passed laws that attempt to permit descrimination against anyone based upon one's "beliefs". Religiously-based intolerance seems to be the latest wedge by which bigots are attempting to gain legitimacy for their offensive behaviors.
...Andrew
...Andrew
32
The way I look at this is, if a very overweight person needs to purchase two seats in order to be, and make others, comfortable, then these orthodox jewish men need to do the same.
35
I am Jewish. No where is the "right to fly" guaranteed by our Constitution. Should one's religion prevent them from sitting next to a woman, there is no obligation on the part of the airline to fulfill that obligation. The onus rests entirely with he/she who is practicing that religion. It was remarkably generous on the part of the woman to give up her seat. And if she refused to move, I suppose that others could have been asked to swap seats so that the gentleman could sit next to a man. Failing that, the airline should say simply that they did all they reasonably could and other forms of travel are options.
19
Backstage of the airline's pathetic response is, what else, money as in "the number of episodes appears to be increasing as ultra-Orthodox communities grow in number and confidence."
17
This is true in NYC, where the ultra orthodox have considerable political power and appear to me to get more concessions than any other religious group.
I thought it was interesting last month, that when 7 children from an orthodox family died in a house fire that resulted from an orthodox ritual, a house in which there were no smoke detectors on 1st or 2nd floors (fire started on 1st floor & spread to 2nd, where kids slept) & from which the father was absent owing to a "religious retreat" (mother was there, & survived), neither parent was even scolded (much less charged) regarding their negligence. Furthermore, the next day the FD was out in front of the house passing out FREE smoke detectors. I have heard of them passing out free batteries in poor neighborhoods where people sometimes neglect to replace dead batteries. But have never heard of them passing out free detectors, especially in a neighborhood as propsperous as Midwood. If these people can afford to buy big houses and take trips to Israel, they ought to be able to afford smoke detectors. But it just goes to show they live in a totally different self-absorbed 18th/19th century world, probably never heard of smoke detectors,so will be up to the taxpayers to provide them for them.
Was interested in visiting Israel, not for religious reasons, but more from standpoint of contemporary culture as has always sounded (ultra-orthodox aside) interesting to me. But after hearing what flights are like for women, maybe not.
I thought it was interesting last month, that when 7 children from an orthodox family died in a house fire that resulted from an orthodox ritual, a house in which there were no smoke detectors on 1st or 2nd floors (fire started on 1st floor & spread to 2nd, where kids slept) & from which the father was absent owing to a "religious retreat" (mother was there, & survived), neither parent was even scolded (much less charged) regarding their negligence. Furthermore, the next day the FD was out in front of the house passing out FREE smoke detectors. I have heard of them passing out free batteries in poor neighborhoods where people sometimes neglect to replace dead batteries. But have never heard of them passing out free detectors, especially in a neighborhood as propsperous as Midwood. If these people can afford to buy big houses and take trips to Israel, they ought to be able to afford smoke detectors. But it just goes to show they live in a totally different self-absorbed 18th/19th century world, probably never heard of smoke detectors,so will be up to the taxpayers to provide them for them.
Was interested in visiting Israel, not for religious reasons, but more from standpoint of contemporary culture as has always sounded (ultra-orthodox aside) interesting to me. But after hearing what flights are like for women, maybe not.
9
In NYC the ultra orthodox seem to have enormous political power, more than I recall seeing in other religious groups.
After that tragic fire in Brooklyn, when 7 orthodox children died because their parents hadn't installed smoke detectors and there was a sabbath-related fire, after the event the NYFD went out on their block and handed out FREE smoke detectors to the orthodox Jews in the neighborhood (who apparently had never heard of them). I have heard of the FD handing out batteries in poor neighborhoods near public housing where people have a tendency to not have money for replacement batteries, but had never heard of them giving out the detectors AND batteries, especially in a neighborhood where people ought to be able to afford them.
After that tragic fire in Brooklyn, when 7 orthodox children died because their parents hadn't installed smoke detectors and there was a sabbath-related fire, after the event the NYFD went out on their block and handed out FREE smoke detectors to the orthodox Jews in the neighborhood (who apparently had never heard of them). I have heard of the FD handing out batteries in poor neighborhoods near public housing where people have a tendency to not have money for replacement batteries, but had never heard of them giving out the detectors AND batteries, especially in a neighborhood where people ought to be able to afford them.
Puleeze! I am Jewish. Another example of why I am again embarrassed by my own faith. This is nuts yet there is a perfectly reasonable answer. Rabbi Nutso buys two seats. Then no one sits next to him.
Here's what really turned me off of Jewish conservative men. I lived in Brookline Mass with my husband. I was 20. The elderly couple next door were Orthodox. Walked to synagogue etc. One Friday evening they asked me to turn off their lights. My MIL threw a fit and was incredibly insulted they would ask a fellow Jew to do this task. I thought it was ironic and comical. What was not funny was that at every opportunity the old Jewish man would grab me and try to touch me!!! EWWUUU. My experience is that these men who purport to follow these strict sexual guidelines are in reality huge, disgusting pervs.
Here's what really turned me off of Jewish conservative men. I lived in Brookline Mass with my husband. I was 20. The elderly couple next door were Orthodox. Walked to synagogue etc. One Friday evening they asked me to turn off their lights. My MIL threw a fit and was incredibly insulted they would ask a fellow Jew to do this task. I thought it was ironic and comical. What was not funny was that at every opportunity the old Jewish man would grab me and try to touch me!!! EWWUUU. My experience is that these men who purport to follow these strict sexual guidelines are in reality huge, disgusting pervs.
43
There was an incident here in Manhattan maybe 5-10 years back involving a raid of a long-estabished bordello on the Upper East Side that sounded like it had been a sort of open secret. One of the "facts" reported in the tabloids that I found particularly interesting was that it was popular with hasidim from Brooklyn.
8
“My buddy who is Orthodox was saying this is a traditional thing — he doesn’t want to be tempted when his wife wasn’t there. And I said, ‘Are you kidding?’ This was just some woman flying to work or home and minding her own business.”
I think this paragraph says a lot. The idea that women provide an inherent sexual threat to men is problematic no matter what your reasoning for it is. It is never a woman's responsibility to accommodate a man's discomfort with her or her body, particularly when, as the commenter notes, most women are just trying to go about their day and mind their business. These men should be taught that their 'temptations' are their own problems and that women will continue to exist regardless, so they had better learn to control themselves.
I think this paragraph says a lot. The idea that women provide an inherent sexual threat to men is problematic no matter what your reasoning for it is. It is never a woman's responsibility to accommodate a man's discomfort with her or her body, particularly when, as the commenter notes, most women are just trying to go about their day and mind their business. These men should be taught that their 'temptations' are their own problems and that women will continue to exist regardless, so they had better learn to control themselves.
52
The title of the article is an example of how violations of women's human rights are perpetuated in our society. There is no mention of the instigator of the conflict (ie, Orthodox males). The reference to "a woman" creates the impression that women are the antagonist, the problem to be overcome. By using "orthodox faith" to refer to the demands of individuals, the headline lends authority to the male travellers. I believe the headline would express the situation more accurately if it was phrased as follows: "When Orthodox Travellers Refuse a Plane Seat Next to a Woman."
44
How far are the rest of us supposed to go to accommodate beliefs that offend our sensibilities, in this case that are sexist? What if a religion mandated its members not sit next to blacks or Jews on public transportation. Should that be indulged?
35
The scenario that has been running through my mind while reading this article and the comments is that of a black flight attendant (not possible I guess on El Al, so would have to be maybe Delta) asking a white woman to move at the request of an orthodox man and having the white passenger say to the black flight attendant "sorry my religion forbids talking to black people."
I applaud the woman who refused to switch seats and it's what I would do too. I'm a vegan who would prefer not to sit next to somebody eating a burger on a plane (I dislike the smell and it offends me from an ethical perspective) but I don't think I'd get much sympathy if I tried to change seats with another passenger over this. But if somebody says they're doing something that the majority of people consider irrational because of religion, we often rush to try to make accommodations. Sexism is sexism and religion should never be used to justify it.
34
Modern Orthodox Jews are not children or imbeciles with no control over their behavior. Why are they not humiliated and offended that their religion assumes that males cannot control their sexual impulses and so imposes these absurd gender-based rules?
On the other side of the question, as a female, maybe I should be frightened to be in proximity to a male member of the Orthodox Jewish faith. Maybe their co-religion forebears know more than I do about them. Maybe they truly are incapable of controlling themselves without these inhibiting rules.
This problem is confounding to a person like me who lives in the 21st century.
On the other side of the question, as a female, maybe I should be frightened to be in proximity to a male member of the Orthodox Jewish faith. Maybe their co-religion forebears know more than I do about them. Maybe they truly are incapable of controlling themselves without these inhibiting rules.
This problem is confounding to a person like me who lives in the 21st century.
28
Don't blame the Modern Orthodox - they and Haredi Jews (the ones withe the objections) live in two different worlds.
1
Misogyny in the name of religion happens all over the world. Sympathetic individuals eager to be sensitive to issues of religious freedom and expression foment this when they accommodate misogynistic behavior cited as being "required" by religion. This doesn't seem too different from so-called pro-lifers. It is In the name of religion that they believe they have a right to exercise control over and limit the behavior of women. Whether it is a Muslim who requires a woman to wear a burqua, a Hasidim who requires a woman to move or restrict her behavior on an airline flight, or a far-right Christian fundamentalist who tells a woman how she can control her body - it's all misogyny. In the US, a country founded by people fleeing religious persecution, the separation of Church and State is only an illusory ideal. What's to be done when one person's religious expression trumps another's personal rights - in a country which supposedly allows for both?
33
A number of comments have suggested that the airline should be called in advance and special seating requested. It is bad enough that flight attendants on the plane have to be complicit in rearranging seating for reasons of biological sex; in those instances any passenger can refuse a seat change. But having an airline predetermine seating based on biological sex is a risky proposition. Will we find out that the women or the Haredim are more often placed in inferior seating to accommodate such requests? From the airline's perspective, its a not insubstantial liability risk, too.
I find the whole belief that, as a woman, I am "unclean" or a "temptress" repulsive. But I have no right to force a man with such a belief to sit near me. Likewise, he has no right to force me to move, and I find it appalling that the flight attendants ask the woman to move, and not the man with the problem. Having said all of that, a major issue is also the arrogance. While I probably still wouldn't move if asked to accommodate this particular backward belief, I would be much more inclined to do so if a gentle request and explanation were given, "I'm very sorry to disrupt you, and I'm sorry if you find this offensive, but my religious beliefs dictate that I cannot sit here next to you. Would you mind moving to this other seat? I'm sorry for the inconvenience." But that would require that I be treated as a fellow human being, and accorded respect.
I find the whole belief that, as a woman, I am "unclean" or a "temptress" repulsive. But I have no right to force a man with such a belief to sit near me. Likewise, he has no right to force me to move, and I find it appalling that the flight attendants ask the woman to move, and not the man with the problem. Having said all of that, a major issue is also the arrogance. While I probably still wouldn't move if asked to accommodate this particular backward belief, I would be much more inclined to do so if a gentle request and explanation were given, "I'm very sorry to disrupt you, and I'm sorry if you find this offensive, but my religious beliefs dictate that I cannot sit here next to you. Would you mind moving to this other seat? I'm sorry for the inconvenience." But that would require that I be treated as a fellow human being, and accorded respect.
18
What happens if one of these ulta-Orthodox men accidentally touches a woman? Do they self-immolate? Or does the world just keep moving on, same as before.
40
They become "unclean," I believe.
Wonderful, let's give the world yet another reason to hate Jews, or, at the very least, find us completely selfish and unreasonable! As I read this article I became incensed, not that these men are trying to follow directives established by their religious doctrine (or at least follow the doctrine as they perceive it is written) but that they expect the rest of the world to inconvenience themselves. What utter audacity. Why is it that THEY aren't seeking to swap THEIR seat, why are they expecting the woman to move her seat. Also, if their religion is so very important to them, why don't they just buy two seats, the way obese people must do these days, so that they are assured of an empty seat next to them. If the religious belief is all that important, it must be worth the extra expense…no?
37
This entire story points out the lunacy of the politically correct movement, and the sanctimony of the Ultra Ortodoxy of ANY religious group who all want the right to practice their religion yet insist that THEY and THEIR rules take precedence over the rights of the other people out here. Religious freedom does NOT give one the right to be rude to the rest of the world.
18
The behavior of a few demanding men should not be extrapolated to an entire religious sect. By analogy, I might be offended by a baker who claims his/her Christian faith forbids him/her from baking a same-sex wedding cake. But that isn't because of Christianity, even if the baker claims so.
I'm ambivalent whether I would be offended if I were a woman caught up in this situation. But I hope I wouldn't blame an entire religion for the behavior of another difficult traveler.
I'm ambivalent whether I would be offended if I were a woman caught up in this situation. But I hope I wouldn't blame an entire religion for the behavior of another difficult traveler.
2
It is offensive to demand that strangers be forced to support your private religious beliefs or customs. Of course a man who doesn't want to sit next to a woman should solve his own problem. Can you imagine the uproar if a passenger stood in the aisle and demanded a seat that wasn't next to a Jewish passenger? This kind of exclusionary attitude seeds trouble for all of us, and I say that as a gay man who can imagine an evangelical tourist from say Uganda demanding not to sit next to me. A plane ride is a (cramped) microcosm of the dense and complicated world we share. If we can't figure this out, how do we live together on the planet? (Not that we are doing a good job of that.)
17
To those who see this as the same kind of request that people make for seat changes to sit near family members or because they are too tall for anything but an aisle seat, the fact is, there are places in the world where women are legally subjugated and have very few rights, and if these guys had their way there would be more of them. If you feel sorry for someone in this position, feel free to give up your own seat, but I decline to accede to their world view, even minimally, especially when I am in my own country, traveling in a public conveyance.
28
I like to use the 'stranded on a deserted island with only a Bible' Bible interpretation method. If I were stranded on a deserted island with only The Holy Bible, that being the usual Old and New Testaments, I don't think that anyone would come up with the belief that you couldn't sit next to a woman on an airplane. Human nature and reasonings can make us go farther than we have to -- and vice versa, of course.
3
No way will I move. If he get on a public rail train and he is handicapped and my husband and I are sitting together my husband will get up to let him sit down. That will lead him to sit right next to me. If he does not because I am a woman. Then he is standing. It is no way he is getting both seats.
5
It's not just the men. I was on a plane and a woman announced she couldn't sit in a middle seat between 2 men. Musical chairs ensued.
Utterly ridiculous.
Utterly ridiculous.
11
The airlines need to pay a rabbi or chaplin to give travelers some sort of religious dispensation to travel without disturbing everyone else with the requirements of ever more "conservative" outer shows of piety.
In Fannery O'Connor's Wise Blood, Hazel Motes put rocks in his shoes Why not, for travel, get a personal/penitente type of religiosity until the trip is over and one is released back into the world. Say the word, Leaders!
In Fannery O'Connor's Wise Blood, Hazel Motes put rocks in his shoes Why not, for travel, get a personal/penitente type of religiosity until the trip is over and one is released back into the world. Say the word, Leaders!
1
I'll bet that of the three, she fit better in the middle seat than the other two.
Notice To All Airlines
You are henceforth required to accommodate all individuals and their families with specific religious needs. It is the responsibility of the individuals at the time of booking to express their needs.
Indi
Thank You
You are henceforth required to accommodate all individuals and their families with specific religious needs. It is the responsibility of the individuals at the time of booking to express their needs.
Indi
Thank You
2
How about women who dont' want to sit next to men? People of one race who don't want to sit next to those of another race? The world outside does not exist to support people's narrow, ridiculous and misogynistic world views, regardless if they find "religious" countenance in some tiny quarter. As others have noted, if these men care so much about just who is sitting next to them, they need to buy two seats when they fly, so they can sit next to an empty seat. Or stay home. Don't they know they are in danger in the big, beautiful world, where a woman might smile at them and say hello?
10
If an obese person must purchase two airline tickets for per flight, then the same rule must apply to these religiously devout men who refuse to sit next to a woman. There. Problem solved.
Now, onto the real issues of the world. What happened to those poor 200 young girls who wetter kidnapped from their school in Africa?
Now, onto the real issues of the world. What happened to those poor 200 young girls who wetter kidnapped from their school in Africa?
14
I have to admit, I would refuse to move. To move would be to admit, if only to myself, that I am somehow inferior, perhaps even unclean and definitely an object of sexuality. To move would be the same as to dress carefully so as not to unduly arouse men. To move would be to say that people can enforce their beliefs on non believers in the disguise of the non believer just being polite or accommodating. We are evolving as a society and to move would be a step backwards. To move would violate the bigger picture of equality for all. Who will be asked to move next? Gay couples sitting next to fundamentalist Christians?
28
Women should be able to deal with even obnoxious requests to move with three phrases. 1. "No thank you, I'm comfortable and like this seat." 2. "Please leave me alone, your are harassing me and I do not intend to move." 3. "Excuse me, airline attendant, this person is harassing and threatening me. He appears unstable and dangerous and I would like you to please protect my safety."
38
I would absolutely not give up my seat for an orthodox Jew or anyone else. It is his problem and not mine. This is 2015, not 2015 AD. If you are so prone to sin that you cannot sit adjacent to a woman on an airplane, then you are the one who should control yourself. You are not an occasion of sin for the average woman, believe me. Stay home or start your own airline company.
18
My first question after reading the first paragraph was, why should the woman be the one to move? That got me seeing red.
If these individuals feel they cannot sit next to a woman, they should make arrangements beforehand with the airline so they are not assigned a seat next to a woman. I don't know why they don't, unless they just want to be combative and in-your-face.
If these individuals feel they cannot sit next to a woman, they should make arrangements beforehand with the airline so they are not assigned a seat next to a woman. I don't know why they don't, unless they just want to be combative and in-your-face.
14
There is something very strange and disturbing about this article. As many of the other commenters have pointed out, it is the man who should ask to be seated elsewhere, not the woman who should be asked (forced) to move. This very obvious, reasonable solution is not brought up anywhere in the article. Why? It almost seems that the author has an agenda: he wants the story to be a "culture war" between religious sexism and modernity, as if there is no option for religious people to be reasonable. Otherwise, it's a less interesting story about the lack of civility of some people who are rude, not because of their religion, but because they are rude.
15
The problem is couching rudeness in religious authoritative attitude and passing it off as neccessary dogma to be tolerated by others. A worldview that requires women to accommodate such views or be treated as the target of a hissy fit is not OK but often is treated as somehow reasonable behavior.
And that is what the broader culture is up against with all these religious "freedom acts". Rudeness is being mistaken for the "right" to express yourself religiously.
And that is what the broader culture is up against with all these religious "freedom acts". Rudeness is being mistaken for the "right" to express yourself religiously.
3
The article's disturbing tone is illustrated in the headline. It does not refer to the demands of individuals, but instead to "orthodox faith," lending authority to the instigators of the conflict.
2
Organised religions are organised ideologies. Organised ideologies include National Socialism and Marxist-Leninism, not to mention Scientology, Racism and all the other crazy ideas that the gullible and uneducated folks lazily and uncritically swallow.
Not only are we under no obligation to admire or respect an ideology, we are under no obligation to tolerate it when it does harm. Indeed, if we believe an ideology to be harmful then we are morally obliged to resist and confront the ideology whenever we meet it. Not to do so is cowardly and pathetic.
We need to resist all harmful ideologies. We must confront them with all our might. There must be no compromise on this.
Not only are we under no obligation to admire or respect an ideology, we are under no obligation to tolerate it when it does harm. Indeed, if we believe an ideology to be harmful then we are morally obliged to resist and confront the ideology whenever we meet it. Not to do so is cowardly and pathetic.
We need to resist all harmful ideologies. We must confront them with all our might. There must be no compromise on this.
9
No different than allowing a baker in Indiana to refuse to serve gay customers. "Faith" seems to always mean freedom to be prejudiced under a cloak of religion.
14
I am female, I am very tall; I book my aisle seats months ahead of time. To me, my comfort is more important than another person's religion or sexism. Ergo, I will NOT give up my seat for any reason. Period.
24
This is a strange article. Why is this newsworthy? Every religion has its dogma- why showcase this? As I submit this comment over 2600 individuals were so upset about someone having to change their seat on a plane they took time out of their day to comment. By the time you read it there may be as many as 3000.
What a strange society we live in. We can manage to bring our attention to an article regarding where people sit on a flight but can't be bothered about the turmoil our government has brought to Iraq. We can't even be bothered to hold those who initiated the violence in Iraq accountable. What about Libya? How has that country fared since we went in "to help them?"
Check out Daniel Goleman's book "Vital Lies, Simple Truths." He suggests we withdraw attention from information that causes us anxiety. I tend to agree with him. As a society we should stop focusing on the small stuff- like seat assignments and start tackling things that make us squirm. Our government is killing people and making entire regions unstable for millions of people using your tax dollars and yet we are up in arms over someone having to move 10-12 feet. This doesn't make sense to me.
What a strange society we live in. We can manage to bring our attention to an article regarding where people sit on a flight but can't be bothered about the turmoil our government has brought to Iraq. We can't even be bothered to hold those who initiated the violence in Iraq accountable. What about Libya? How has that country fared since we went in "to help them?"
Check out Daniel Goleman's book "Vital Lies, Simple Truths." He suggests we withdraw attention from information that causes us anxiety. I tend to agree with him. As a society we should stop focusing on the small stuff- like seat assignments and start tackling things that make us squirm. Our government is killing people and making entire regions unstable for millions of people using your tax dollars and yet we are up in arms over someone having to move 10-12 feet. This doesn't make sense to me.
1
This is newsworthy because it is not just about moving 10 feet but rather a symptom of the increasing encroachment of religious privileges over civil rights. It is something that affects us all, and something that we can relatively easily do something about. (The airlines can simply institute a policy of escorting anyone off the plane, if they refuse to take a seat.) It is also something that will grow more and more out of hand, if we don't put an end to it now.
The situation in Iraq has less direct implications for most readers here. Iraq is a total mess, and offering solutions that will actually work, is very difficult, if not impossible, and certainly not something that most of us can easily provide advice on.
The situation in Iraq has less direct implications for most readers here. Iraq is a total mess, and offering solutions that will actually work, is very difficult, if not impossible, and certainly not something that most of us can easily provide advice on.
4
There is one salient feature about this article. There is an article on the hijab and women's rights by a renown Egyptian feminist. It has four comments. Kansas is restricting abortion - a real assault on women's rights by a government, that of the people who comment on this article. Under 500 comments.
People follow media that confirms their worldview, especially their biases. Clearly, the readership of the NYT is not so much pro-feminist as anti-Jewish Orthodox.
People follow media that confirms their worldview, especially their biases. Clearly, the readership of the NYT is not so much pro-feminist as anti-Jewish Orthodox.
1
Our government is also passing "Religious Freedom Laws" a mile a minute. There are also women's issues in the mix here- if someone's religion is sexist or racist, there is a conflict. Little issues are often indicative of big troubles, ie, most of the squabbles in this old world right this very minute deal with religious difference and intolerance. It is ok to question all of it.
You yourself took time to comment/scold- that's what it is all about.
You yourself took time to comment/scold- that's what it is all about.
18
This is an incredibly simple problem. You can buy the whole row, or you can not fly. Either way, it's your issue, you solve it.
17
I often give up my seat in 1st class when I see uniformed soldier boarding. I ask him/her if they are on active duty. If they are, I consider it privilege to swap seats (and it's always the row with no window that "non-rev" military are stuck in.)
Giving up my seat to accommodate a religious, misogynistic bigot would never cross my mind.
Giving up my seat to accommodate a religious, misogynistic bigot would never cross my mind.
27
Just more examples of the follies of faith--i.e. dogmatic belief despite lack of evidence--making it the linchpin of your life.
Your right to do so is (ideally) limited to your private life--thoughts and feelings. But no right to impose them on others or to expect others to indulge you--just because of weird and wonderful beliefs in some mythology.
One of history's greatest marketing scams was spinning faith--irrational belief--into a cardinal virtue along with hope and charity. Hope in this context meant hope for eternal life--more mythology.
Charity (agape/love in one of its senses) was really the only connection to the teachings of Jesus--a reforming prophetic Jew. The rest is marketing of religion and the virtue and authority of its personnel.
Your right to do so is (ideally) limited to your private life--thoughts and feelings. But no right to impose them on others or to expect others to indulge you--just because of weird and wonderful beliefs in some mythology.
One of history's greatest marketing scams was spinning faith--irrational belief--into a cardinal virtue along with hope and charity. Hope in this context meant hope for eternal life--more mythology.
Charity (agape/love in one of its senses) was really the only connection to the teachings of Jesus--a reforming prophetic Jew. The rest is marketing of religion and the virtue and authority of its personnel.
6
Does anyone know if an ultra-Orthodox woman has ever demanded that a man move? Or maybe women are allowed to touch men not their husbands?
8
I think this article's headlines are skewing the problem just a tad. From what I read (hopefully I did so correctly) his problem was not that he would have had to sit next to A woman, his problem is that he fears that that he will accidentally touch/brush the arm of another woman that is not his wife.
He is allowed to be fearful of this (it is part of his religion, which he is bound by) he is just following what he and the rest of his community strongly believes, BUT should therefore take precautionary actions in order to avoid such a problem. Like everyone else is saying- he needs to plan ahead (buy two seats next to each other, find someone to switch with, etc.) for occasions such as this.
No one, man or woman, should have to be removed from their seat because of someone else's religion.
Its his personal problem, he should have to move.
Simple solution: an empty middle seat + the two biggest dudes on the plane, one in window, one in aisle = maybe people with specific needs will start planning ahead.
He is allowed to be fearful of this (it is part of his religion, which he is bound by) he is just following what he and the rest of his community strongly believes, BUT should therefore take precautionary actions in order to avoid such a problem. Like everyone else is saying- he needs to plan ahead (buy two seats next to each other, find someone to switch with, etc.) for occasions such as this.
No one, man or woman, should have to be removed from their seat because of someone else's religion.
Its his personal problem, he should have to move.
Simple solution: an empty middle seat + the two biggest dudes on the plane, one in window, one in aisle = maybe people with specific needs will start planning ahead.
7
Would the ultra-orthodox gentleman move if some man (of some "faith") asked him to move because he was his religious beliefs restricted him from sitting next to someone who was wearing black and long beard?
If everyone who steps out into society wants to impose their various religious or other conditions onto the airline (and individuals) we might need to board an hour early and start rearranging passenger like a big puzzle until everyone is satisfied. Hmm...I thought living in a "society" meant we all had to be accepting of the differences we bump into. I like the Google definition of society: "the aggregate of people living together in a more or less ordered community." More or less ordered.
If everyone who steps out into society wants to impose their various religious or other conditions onto the airline (and individuals) we might need to board an hour early and start rearranging passenger like a big puzzle until everyone is satisfied. Hmm...I thought living in a "society" meant we all had to be accepting of the differences we bump into. I like the Google definition of society: "the aggregate of people living together in a more or less ordered community." More or less ordered.
15
I'm surprised no has yet noted that Judaism routinely comes up with creative ways of "observing" commandments that for one reason or another are inconvenient to actually, like, observe...
As in the eruv, which allows one to walk further than is strictly acceptable, or the selling of chametz, which means you don't need to toss it out before Passover.
If the airlines would stop enabling this boorish behavior and make it clear that disruptions will face severe penalties, Ultra-Orthodox rabbis will issue responsa enabling their followers to, like, sit next to unrelated women on airplanes...
As in the eruv, which allows one to walk further than is strictly acceptable, or the selling of chametz, which means you don't need to toss it out before Passover.
If the airlines would stop enabling this boorish behavior and make it clear that disruptions will face severe penalties, Ultra-Orthodox rabbis will issue responsa enabling their followers to, like, sit next to unrelated women on airplanes...
13
As a reform American Jew, this makes me INSANE and frankly, humilated. There's enough anti-Semitism in the world without these neolithic sexist antiquated cretins making it worse. Don't fly commercial if your religious sensitivities prohibit you from sitting next to half the plane. Better yet, take a horse and buggy wherever you're going, since that is pretty much the time period in which you're living.
21
Twice in February I sat in a group of young Hassidim who were extremely disrespectful, almost burying me amongst their aggressive takeover group, and the second time a group of French speaking orthodox young men ridiculing me all through the flight and almost pushing me off my armrest. If they will not be civil on regular flights perhaps they should charter their own, or buy a section of the plane with a curtain....The airlines need to be involved in regulatiing such behavior
and not be intimidated.
and not be intimidated.
21
Freedom of religion allows you to ask for people next to you to move seats. Freedom of religion also gives you the right to stay in the seat you bought and paid for regardless of other people's religious beliefs about seating arrangements.
Politeness includes trying to avoid inconveniencing other people. If your religion, or interpretation thereof, determines whom you are allowed and not allowed to sit next to on a plane, then it is polite to deal with that issue in advance and to try to minimize any associated inconvenience to other passengers.
Politeness includes trying to avoid inconveniencing other people. If your religion, or interpretation thereof, determines whom you are allowed and not allowed to sit next to on a plane, then it is polite to deal with that issue in advance and to try to minimize any associated inconvenience to other passengers.
8
I am curious to know if orthodox men take this possibility into consideration while making their flight reservations. It would seem it is up to them to make arrangements so as to avoid sitting next to a woman, not the other passengers.
4
If you've had any real interaction with ultra-Orthodox Jewish people, you would know that the separation of the sexes is not actually sexist. Calling them sexist is actually incredibly ignorant. Orthodox men don't want to have contact with female strangers out of respect for their wives and the sanctity of their marriage. Maybe our society can learn something from their ways instead of judging them without understanding the rationale for their behavior.
1
Still doesn't require me to give up my seat, though, does it?
14
Whatever the motivation might be, this does not excuse this imposition on others. We can all learn from other perspectives, but what you ask of others, is ironic, considering this group's insistence on self isolation and separation from larger society.
9
All sexist religions claim that their restrictions on women are for the protection of the women. I understand their rationale perfectly well, and I am not naïve enough to fall for it.
17
I doubt we'd even be having this conversation if the situation involved someone who, because of professed orthodox religious or sectarian beliefs, refused to sit next to a person of color because he or she is "unclean." And yet we can still seriously entertain (as in, evaluate the pros and cons of) one of the oldest misogynist lines in the book, namely, that the female body (and the very thought of the female body) is impure, corrupting, defiling, and profane. This has nothing to do with "multiculturalism" or genuinely liberal concerns for freedom of religion. It's just an expression of masculine domination, "pure" and simple. To comply with its pronouncements and demands is nothing less than submitting to a very old form of tyranny in presumably 'modern' guise.
26
I would like to know why it is the female who is asked to move. The male is the one with the problem, let him move. Unless they plan on moving me to first class then I plan on staying in the seat I purchased. I always pay extra to get a particular seat for my comfort. With back and knee issues from prolonged immobility on a plane I insist on an aisle seat so that I can get up and move without disturbing the person next to me.
20
Refuse! He should get his own private jet or live in an Island alone and never leave. Same goes for all other religions! They should deal with the airline beforehand and not bother other passengers.
8
As an orthodox follower of the Church of Myself, I am only allowed to travel in first class, no matter what ticket I buy. Therefore, airline staff, please make it happen, snap-snap!
14
The man should move, not the woman he is inconveniencing.
8
There is a conspicuous omission in this article: there is no mention of Orthodox women trying to change their seat mates. Are the rules about sitting next to or touching people of the opposite sex different for Orthodox men and Orthodox women? If the rules are the same, how do Orthodox women handle this issue?
9
Sexism is a tradition practiced by all human societies. Singling out a small religious cult for preferential treatment over 50% of humanity is not only unfair, but unjust and unholy. Respect is a two way street. These troublemakers who refuse to sit should be asked to leave the plane so the departure can happen. If I ever see this happen on a flight, I will tell the attendant that if the woman is forced to move, then I will cancel my flight and demand a full refund. I don't buy this ruse of some "religious right" to demean entire swaths of humanity. It's not a right if its wrong.
16
I guess you get 2500 comments by publishing an article that touches on a little bit of everything. I noted a number of general categories: religious freedom (both freedom "of" and freedom "from"; great stuff), political correctness, anti-Semitism, men's entitlement, women's oppression/ victimization, loss of civility/common sense, rise of the security state, maybe a few others.
4
This is about keeping women down, not about religion. It is a motivation shared by fundamentalist Muslims, and some fundamentalist Christians, all of whom are cut out of the same cloth. They see women as put on this earth solely to serve men, to give them pleasure and babies, and to keep house for them. In this view, women are chattel.
This may sound dogmatic, histrionic, overstated – unless you appreciate the enduring influence of male dominance on human (and most animal) behavior. It is a primal instinct that served the species well over millions of years of evolution, but it is dysfunctional and disruptive in modern society.
Over the ages, religion has been used to justify all manner of abuses - including mass murder - by religious fundamentalists against those who do not share their zealotry.
Closer to home, re airplane seating, these men are acting as bullies, nothing more. The more they get their way, the more they will bully.
This may sound dogmatic, histrionic, overstated – unless you appreciate the enduring influence of male dominance on human (and most animal) behavior. It is a primal instinct that served the species well over millions of years of evolution, but it is dysfunctional and disruptive in modern society.
Over the ages, religion has been used to justify all manner of abuses - including mass murder - by religious fundamentalists against those who do not share their zealotry.
Closer to home, re airplane seating, these men are acting as bullies, nothing more. The more they get their way, the more they will bully.
41
"Sure, I'll be happy to move to another seat. Give me $800 dollars please."
27
I think if any body has a religious preference they should notify the airline while they are making there ticket arrangement to see if the airline can accommodate them in any way!!
1
Brother, if you my aisle seat you need to come with the ducats. 100 dollars cash money.
12
Sure, I'd be happy to move if the gentleman who is so offended by my proximity will pay to upgrade me to first class.
26
When the travel is between New York and Israel there is a rather simple solution to the problem: The ultra-orthodox community should have its own travel agency that purchases ahead of time entire rows or sections on a plane and then sells it to its own community members according to their preferences.
Routes that are less popular among Jews are more challenging . But again, a travel agent of the community who negotiates with the airlines and plans the seat assignments ahead of time would keep the responsibility of observing the community values within the community rather than throwing it on the rest of the world.
Routes that are less popular among Jews are more challenging . But again, a travel agent of the community who negotiates with the airlines and plans the seat assignments ahead of time would keep the responsibility of observing the community values within the community rather than throwing it on the rest of the world.
22
"'— he doesn’t want to be tempted when his wife wasn’t there"'
Women don't think like men. We're sexual beings, but just sitting next to a man doesn't immediately, if at all, spark sexual intentions with that person. If an individual deals with this type of temptation every time they're in the company of a woman, maybe their wife should accompany them continuously, including not traveling alone.
Women don't think like men. We're sexual beings, but just sitting next to a man doesn't immediately, if at all, spark sexual intentions with that person. If an individual deals with this type of temptation every time they're in the company of a woman, maybe their wife should accompany them continuously, including not traveling alone.
20
Their wives are always walking somewhere behind them.
1
While I don't like how some religions or orthodoxies ask for outrageous accommodations in our secular life, at least these women had a choice as to whether to move or not. In some fundamentalist sects it's incumbent on women to shroud themselves to protect men from themselves. Neither has a place in the modern world, really.
14
One should also note that Orthodox women make the same request, not to be seated next to men. It's not a gender issue, as both the article and you seem to imply.
2
The women must not be asked to move. If the man has a problem he should find a solution for himself or shut up and sit down. Holding up boarding and departure by standing in the aisle while insisting that the woman has to move constitutes interfering with the flight which is a chargeable offense.
4
And suppose I said to the airline cabin crew I won't sit next to him because he is a Hassid (I"m a Jew so I am allowed to say this). What's the difference? There is none.
Religion is a curse. You want to curse your own life with it, go ahead and have fun but keep it to yourself and do not intrude on the world, on others, on me. If you want to decide who you will or won't sit next to on an airplane because of primitive religious superstition then buy your own airplane.
The First Amendment guarantees religious freedom. My religious freedom is to be free of yours. Keep yours far away from me and do not, do not expect me to live by yours in any way, in any form, in any fashion or in any place.
Religion is a curse. You want to curse your own life with it, go ahead and have fun but keep it to yourself and do not intrude on the world, on others, on me. If you want to decide who you will or won't sit next to on an airplane because of primitive religious superstition then buy your own airplane.
The First Amendment guarantees religious freedom. My religious freedom is to be free of yours. Keep yours far away from me and do not, do not expect me to live by yours in any way, in any form, in any fashion or in any place.
53
although I am an atheist I still respect others beliefs However, ones beliefs should not inconvenience a non believer. If you want to ensure your not seated next to a woman, you should purchase two seats.
24
I would not move, he would sit or get off. I agree if you can't adapt then stay home. To expect people to accommodate them is nuts you can always charter and fly alone.....
31
Absolutely right. I am NOT going to move because they have certain beliefs. What if they get on a train and their are no seats left but one and the seat is next to a woman and say the man is handicapped. So I suppose to get up and let him alone to occupy 2 seats. I don't think so. I guess he will stand up handicapped. When their is a perfectly good seat right next too me. On an airplane you can pick your seat then buy the seat next to you to make sure no one else is beside you.
1
There are over 2500 comments on this story, and no one is without better things to do than to read them all, but I hope someone has tried to explain how in a dispute like this, it is always the burden of the woman to move, not the male complainant.
Not that I agree with the ultra-Orthodox man, I just like to see how people justify their actions.
Not that I agree with the ultra-Orthodox man, I just like to see how people justify their actions.
22
Agreed. Why should the woman be the one to move?
As I and many other commenters have said, blueberryintomatosoup. Now I'd like to hear from someone who believes it is always the woman's duty to move to accommodate a man's religious sensibilities, and explain why. I'd like that person to speak for himself, not for a person who is like-minded with us to try to read another person's mind.
jojojo12 has noted that Orthodox Jewish women "make the same request," not to be seated next to a person of the opposite sex not their spouse. But jojo called it a request, not a demand. Does that mean that the women are politer than the men, that they never raise a stink that holds up the flight? I'd like the Times to run a story on such requests from women.
jojojo12 has noted that Orthodox Jewish women "make the same request," not to be seated next to a person of the opposite sex not their spouse. But jojo called it a request, not a demand. Does that mean that the women are politer than the men, that they never raise a stink that holds up the flight? I'd like the Times to run a story on such requests from women.
1
Rabbi Mirsky is wrong. multiculturalism means I must respect your private religious beliefs, not honor your public ones. Seems a lot like the prejudices expressed by the extremists of any religion.
17
There are two kinds of business: 1) my business and 2) none of my business. The man's religion is none of my business.
5
But somehow he made it everyone's business to accomodate him.
1
Until he makes it your business by loudly, obnoxiously, and stridently proclaiming it right in your (or your wife's) face. Then what John?
1
But he's making it your business if you are a woman and he wants you not sitting next to him because of your automatic "harlotry."
5
If you believe in God then you believe in duality: good and evil, right and wrong, man and woman. Life is a two-sided construct. Man and woman are the two sides of God. So why do men seem to feel it is godly to deform the bond between men and women? We all should respect and value religious beliefs, but when a faith devalues it is not faithful. Honor faith, but never honor religious beliefs that support stupidity.
11
Why fly at all if one's religious beliefs cannot mesh with modernity? I find the dilemma utterly ridiculous regardless of the flight's destination. I remember while living in LA the matter of controversy regarding passage on streets or other retail establishments in the area of orthodox establishments. Blue Sunday laws were established in areas of the South where certain religious faiths forbade the sale of liquor or beer, spirits, etc., on Sunday. Some were overturned. How can all involved in interstate commerce deal with the peculiarities and observances of certain sects, religious or otherwise? Come now, let us reason together. Frankly, I am as offended by travelers who hardly wear clothing, bring dogs on board, or have unruly children. But, if I have to fly to get somewhere, I am on board.
11
There are private jets for hire. I suggest these men rent one.....When I buy my ticket and chose my seat, I WILL sit in it...........their religion won't make me change my plans
23
Kind of ironic that Mrs. Heywood would not give in to his "sexist" demands because she did not want to cause discomfort to her husband.
1
Not ironic at all. She was concerned with the comfort of one person - the man she knew and loved - over the unreasonable demand of another person.
5
It is not ironic. Mrs. Heywood explained that one part of her decision was based on who's comfort was more important, her husband's or that stranger's. She decided her husband's comfort was more important.
1
You've missed the point of her statement. It is not that she is giving into to some patriarchal notion. She is simply choosing her partner's comfort over a stranger's. Husband isn't always a derogatory title.
1
Really? Do they think that any woman they sit by is going to want to jump into bed with them? She is on a flight trying to get where ever she is going just like the men. That doesn't say much about those men's self control or devotion to their wife. Also,it shows how they must think about women in general.
17
it was not noted--rather conveniently--that orthodox women make the same request: to be seated only next to women.
1
This is just another example of the misogyny at the fundamentalist heart of the Abrahamic religions. The Times ran a story a couple of years ago about women scientists in Israel not being allowed to attend ceremonies honoring their work because Ultra-Orthodox men refused to see them there, but their male co-authors did attend and got the credit for the females' work. Another Times story described forced segregation on buses traveling through neighborhoods in NYC and girls being spat upon for their attire. Yet another story described censorship in newspapers where images of female newspaper were removed from existence via Photoshop. This type of behavior isn't just an inconvenience, it is an affront to women. We wouldn't tolerate for a second a Black being treated this way.
The obnoxious beliefs of fundamentalist men will never be changed unless they are given no choice in a civil society other than to accept women. If they choose not to, the men can remove themselves from the situation, not the other way around.
The obnoxious beliefs of fundamentalist men will never be changed unless they are given no choice in a civil society other than to accept women. If they choose not to, the men can remove themselves from the situation, not the other way around.
38
I agree with you, Mike Iker. The extremes the Ultra Orthodox go to in their quest for gender separation are outrageous. What is also outrageous is that the same behavior in fundamentalist Muslims is seen in a very different light, with people all over the world condemning such behavior as violating civil and human rights. Why are we not condemning the Ultra Orthodox and the fundamentalist Christians for rights violations as well?
3
Tell him to go sit in the toilet for the trip, or make him stand. Pack him in on the overhead luggage shelf. Any solution which will make him look like the weak minded gullible fool that he is seems fine to me.
28
Into the toilet for the trip? That would certainly inconvenience the other passengers.
I suggest that the flight attendant threaten to touch him if be doesn't act reasonably.
I suggest that the flight attendant threaten to touch him if be doesn't act reasonably.
4
Walking works too, or hitchhiking. Perhaps as checked luggage in a pet carrier.
The onus should be on the religious man. The woman should not be moving to accommodate him. If there's a free seat, HE needs to move.
21
You can not force women on changing their seats according to your religious beliefs. When you take a flight you should already know that there will be women passengers. So either smooth you religious beliefs or stop travelling!!!
19
If it should be illegal to refuse to sell a cake to a gay person, it should be illegal to refuse a seat to a religious person.
4
The airlines never refused to sell seats to a religious person. The religious person just didn't want the seat that was on offer and wanted others to change for them. While we all have a constitutional right to practice our own religion, we don't have a constitutional right to insist a business change their product/service (or what they are selling to another customer) to correspond to what we claim are our religious requirements.
1
The word "Sell" means that there is a contract between the buyer (the passenger) and the seller (the airline) for the sale of a specific item or service. When I buy an airplane ticket, I click on the seat I want, I pay for it, and voila, it is mine. "Give" is a social exchange and is not mandated at all as part of the original contract between the buyer and seller. The third entity -person demanding that the original buyer relinquish the seat that he or she ALREADY BOUGHT from the seller - is not part of that contract. He can negotiate his OWN contract if he wants to try, but his wants should not impact someone else.
1
These gentlemen know when they leave their ultra-orthodox enclave that they are going into a society with different norms. It is therefore up to them to accommodate or make their needs known to the airline well enough in advance as to minimize inconvenience to others. Air travel is planned weeks or even months in advance, so it isn't s if there isn't ample time.
As a point of comparison, if were planning to spend some time in their community or visit one of their synagogues, I would make sure to plan ahead and dress appropriately, cover my hair, etc. If there were some reason I couldn't do that, I'd try to work something out in advance or I just wouldn't go.
Respect has to be a mutual thing, otherwise it's just arrogance.
As a point of comparison, if were planning to spend some time in their community or visit one of their synagogues, I would make sure to plan ahead and dress appropriately, cover my hair, etc. If there were some reason I couldn't do that, I'd try to work something out in advance or I just wouldn't go.
Respect has to be a mutual thing, otherwise it's just arrogance.
22
The problem is that the men do not see their own behavior as arrogant. Attempting to shame them for their behavior only makes them believe even more fervently in their righteousness. That said, charging them with interfering with a flight is appropriate. The legal troubles ought to hurt them and may eventually induce them to change their ways.
2
If you want to impose your primitive religious views and practices on others I suggest you resort to more spacious and less modern forms of transportation to acommodate your preferences like travel by ship, or better yet, stay home.
20
Preferential seating on airlines comes at a price. Would passengers be willing to move if offered a better seat and paid a fee for the trouble?
7
The comment section is really interesting this article. One thing I am seeing is that the leaders of all kinds of fundamentalist groups should take note of how their flock is being perceived and to take on training their folks to interact with people outside their narrative in appropriate ways.
We all are inside our own heads and experiences, but when the religious behave as if their behavior is sanctioned by God and their very souls are in the balance just taking their seat or selling someone cake, then the belief system becomes self-trivializing. How about some more mature guidance for bigger problems to solve rather than just being annoying to the general public, whom most fundamentalists distain. Maybe a practical course in better, more workable manners would be more helpful than another lecture in labyrinthine theology.
We all are inside our own heads and experiences, but when the religious behave as if their behavior is sanctioned by God and their very souls are in the balance just taking their seat or selling someone cake, then the belief system becomes self-trivializing. How about some more mature guidance for bigger problems to solve rather than just being annoying to the general public, whom most fundamentalists distain. Maybe a practical course in better, more workable manners would be more helpful than another lecture in labyrinthine theology.
22
It is a good thing that they are not trying to sell pizzas or wedding cakes. Adhering to one's religion is hard and sometimes takes a cost.
1
In a secular society such as ours, it is unreasonable for any religious accommodation. While I respect the effort, it cannot be made at the expense of others. The disruption by the Ultra Orthodox on planes is not a new issue. I have been on flights where they refuse or ignore the requests of the flight crew to be seated, or to buckle up, delaying the flight, or not to move around the cabin in turbulence. Unfortunately, many Ultra Orthodox demonstrate a sense of entitlement and disdain for others not of their sect. This extends to Jew and non Jew alike, for in their eyes everyone else is of lesser import.
While the problem is relatively small, it does have the possibility of spreading to devout Muslims as well.
The solution may be regulation governing the seating policies on Aircraft. Like requesting a Kosher or Hallel meal, the seat location may become an option. Here is another opportunity for a fee based service by airlines.
Perhaps the greatest difficulty here is the delicacy with which the issue must be approached. Any perceived slight or criticism is immediately met with the cry of " Antisemitism" , guaranteed to complicate and cloud the issue.
While the problem is relatively small, it does have the possibility of spreading to devout Muslims as well.
The solution may be regulation governing the seating policies on Aircraft. Like requesting a Kosher or Hallel meal, the seat location may become an option. Here is another opportunity for a fee based service by airlines.
Perhaps the greatest difficulty here is the delicacy with which the issue must be approached. Any perceived slight or criticism is immediately met with the cry of " Antisemitism" , guaranteed to complicate and cloud the issue.
11
If a person refuses to sit down, I suggest they be escorted from the plane, religion or no.
5
Yes... simple solution Purchase two seats or three if need be on certain flights. I would not move either - maybe to first class, but not from a seat on the aisle or the window. And definitely not after I was settled in - particularly if I was using the overhead bin right there where I was seated. The request is unreasonable. Further, holding up boarding should result in his being told to sit down or leave the flight. Enough of this non-sense. IF your beliefs dictate such, perhaps you need to take a ship and not fly. Modern conveniences require living in this century.
20
My God, over 2500 comments! I just commented on an article about the Iran deal and there was only a few hundred.
Clearly, this strikes a note that pushes some buttons.
What the ultra-orthodox need to do is develop some gentle communication skills to improve their chances of getting what they want. And also they need to stop treating women, well, like ultra-orthodox Muslims do!
Clearly, this strikes a note that pushes some buttons.
What the ultra-orthodox need to do is develop some gentle communication skills to improve their chances of getting what they want. And also they need to stop treating women, well, like ultra-orthodox Muslims do!
20
Here in Worcester MA Jewish people are part of the landscape black hat, long beard, and black tall coat. Kill Bill style. But all they do is walk from one place to another. They never speak. They seem to be in deep thought. On occasion they may be seen walking with a child, head bent towards the child's ear, talking quietly. Probably explaining why it's not cool to sit next to girls.
1
You make a very good point. These guys come off as extremely arrogant and aloof no mater what the circumstances. They are their own worst enemy. "Gentle communication skills" appear to be at the bottom of their list of attributes. ( Ever see one of them crack a smile?) Their "exclusivity" and haughtiness certainly doesn't help Israel's many causes, either.
3
Perhaps if the Orthodox made their Seating Preferences known when purchasing their ticket this problem could be avoided.
9
Hallejulah!
If a person, for religious or any other reasons, wants to have his own seat, he can buy two seats or pay for first class.
13
Why should the woman be expected to move ? It makes just as much sense to find men sitting together , have one of them take the Jewish guys seat by the woman and having the Jewish fellow go sit by a man .. I'm a guy and it seems striking to me that moving the woman is the automatic default answer ..
21
maybe, since the ultra-Orthodox are living in the 14th century, they should take a horse and buggy to their destination and let us live in the modern secular world.
26
Seriously. Somehow it's OK to sit in an aluminum tube going 500 miles an hour for 6 or 7 hours, breathing the same air, drinking the same water, using the same restrooms as everyone else, but these delusional cult members cannot sit next to a woman? Sounds a lot like a bunch of four years olds stridently asserting their entitlements.
4
Is there nothing in this world that can't be destroyed by religion?
18
Thinking outside the box, these religious men sit next to a lot of gay men. I'm wondering how their religious rules handle that situation. And, what if they sit next to a lesbian? Religion is so complicated. Why didn't their God cover all the bases, instead of leaving it to mere humans?
8
The solution is simple: the man who stands in the aisle refusing to sit and delaying the plane should be removed from the plane. Disruptive passengers are normally removed, even sometimes if the plane has to land to do it.
What I find interesting is that in the stories from these comments, no one seems to come to the aid of the targeted women - not the staff and not the other passengers.
What I find interesting is that in the stories from these comments, no one seems to come to the aid of the targeted women - not the staff and not the other passengers.
28
I did every time I read a comment.
1
If these guys are so ultra-orthodox, what are they doing flying on a modern plane? They should walk or ride their donkeys.
21
Apparently ultra-orthodox Jewish men are unable to control their sex drive. However, I do not find their appearance attractive, so I hope they don't sit next to me.
19
Actually, I am repulsed by them in all manners of speaking; and I am a Jewish woman. I would object to being seated next to any of their ilk, more so than they would object sitting next to me.
1
Here is the solution, which I think would meet the approval of the elders of old.
The ultra-orthodox man should offer payment to the woman for the inconvenience that she is undergoing. May I suggest (to the nearest ch'ai) $108 for domestic, and $216 for longer international flights?
The result:
1. The ultra-orthodox man has demonstrated to himself and others that he is truly pious by making a small sacrifice.
2. The woman receives compensation for her troubles.
3. The inconvenience for the airline and remaining passengers is minimized.
The ultra-orthodox man should offer payment to the woman for the inconvenience that she is undergoing. May I suggest (to the nearest ch'ai) $108 for domestic, and $216 for longer international flights?
The result:
1. The ultra-orthodox man has demonstrated to himself and others that he is truly pious by making a small sacrifice.
2. The woman receives compensation for her troubles.
3. The inconvenience for the airline and remaining passengers is minimized.
11
It still avoids the issue of putting the onus on women to move.
My dignity as a woman is worth much more than $108.
3
Yes, "the elders of old" might agree with your suggestion, but by today's standards in North America, it would be a violation of human rights. When a consumer pays for goods or services, he or she is entitled to them, regardless of another consumer's desire for the already-purchased item. If an airline guaranteed seat selection only to men, it would and should be confronted with discrimination claims.
I am amazed that there is any debate around this issue. We would never tolerate asking a passenger to move for reasons of ethnicity. No woman should ever be asked to accomodate a violation of her rights.
I am amazed that there is any debate around this issue. We would never tolerate asking a passenger to move for reasons of ethnicity. No woman should ever be asked to accomodate a violation of her rights.
7
Why cannot people keep their religion in their churches, temples, and homes? It does not belong on airplanes or in pizza parlors.
18
Visualizing myself in this situation, once my furor subsided, if ever, this would totally be a very ripe lawsuit against the orthodox passenger harassing/humiliating me, and against the airline. How dare they? I've been on the receiving end of Jewish orthodox behavior like this actually in the workplace and it is impossible to reconcile with any level of anger management. And yes I am Jewish myself.
30
The women paid for their seats. Did the men who refuse to sit next to them pay for enough seats to assure that they get to choose their seat mates? Overweight passengers have to buy two seats in order to have room for their bodies. Perhaps these religious bigots should pay for two (or three if necessary) in order to have enough room for their narrow minds.
15
As a Jewish man who has flown to Israel many times there no way I would trade my seat to have to sit next to a Hasidic man, but I would gladly trade to sit next to a woman.
8
I have experienced these disputes and delays written about and have found them troubling. But of even greater concern to me is that our safety is in jeopardy when the Ultra Orthodox men stand up to pray in the aisles. I don't mind the praying, I am happy for all the prayers I can get while flying, but I think it is wrong when the pilot announces there is turbulence up ahead and the men stubbornly resist the pilots decree, "back to your seats and buckle up." On one trip, an exasperated pilot had to come on the loud speaker three times, saying at last, "If you do not sit down we cannot be responsible for any injury you sustain." He had it half right. What about our injuries? If we hit turbulence and one of those "praying minions" goes flying into seated passengers we all end up taking the brunt of their refusal to acquiesce to common sense and courtesy.
I am grateful for this article and the opportunity to bring this dilemma out in the open. Soul searching, ethics, and best business practices, is all in the mix...without casting stones, how do we fish learn to live in the same ocean together?
I am grateful for this article and the opportunity to bring this dilemma out in the open. Soul searching, ethics, and best business practices, is all in the mix...without casting stones, how do we fish learn to live in the same ocean together?
22
I, too, have experienced the same situation you described while flying. What was worse was my 4 year old daughter had to use the restroom while they were blocking the aisle and refused to move. Since they had the aisle blocked 3 rows up and 2 rows back there was no way we could get in the aisle in either direction and even her tears and pleading "Mommy, I'm going to wet my pants!" was futile. She ultimately had to be hoisted over the two rows of seats behind us by sympathetic passengers and a flight attendant escorted her to the bathroom. To say I'm still livid is an understatement.
3
To you ultra-orthodox Jewish an/or extreme Muslim men who fear you cannot control yourselves around women: this is your problem. Own it. Take responsibility for yourselves. It is NOT for me to move to another seat or cover myself in a burka so that you can be free of temptation. Take responsibility for yourselves. Do not make your lack of self control my problem!
23
The author notes this issue is becoming more prevalent as the ultra Orthodox population is growing. A contributing factor might also be the ever decreasing side of airplane seats.
3
I am a feminist, but I do not have a problem moving airplane seats to help a person observe their faith, nor do I have problem moving to help parents sit with their children. The only thing I care about is getting to my destination. Would it be great if these gentlemen would call ahead? Sure. But in the scheme of my life, sitting two rows up will not be something I remember on my death bed. Entitlement is a two way street.
3
You must not be tall, have long legs or a bad back so you need to choose specific seats on planes so you can stretch out a bit or move around easily and frequently without disrupting your seatmates. Being asked to move from a seat you've chosen well in advance - and for which you've paid extra - would be infuriating. And to be asked to do so strictly because of your gender? Not in this lifetime!!!
1
What if civil rights activists in the 50s had said "I am opposed to racism, but I don't mind sitting in the back of the bus"?
1
I don't think its to scale to compare the Civil Rights movement, in which the dominant majority systematically oppressed a large percentage of the population based on their skin color, to a small religious sect holding onto their millennia entrenched beliefs on how to honor their God. While Feminism still fights many fronts (wage inequality; glass ceilings; right to body ownership; etc) changing religious beliefs isn't one of them.
At its heart, this article is not only about old v. new world problems, but first world problems. To be able to travel by airplane, regardless the reason or cost, is a luxury. But for myself it is not so much of a luxury that I feel I am the only person on the aircraft. If contact with my gender *truly* causes anxiety for someone based on their faith, I don't take it any more personally than when a Christian friend can't understand that I don't believe in Jesus Christ. An airplane ride, after all, is just a means to an end, and if we can't find a way to look through one another's eyes perhaps we all should just stay home.
At its heart, this article is not only about old v. new world problems, but first world problems. To be able to travel by airplane, regardless the reason or cost, is a luxury. But for myself it is not so much of a luxury that I feel I am the only person on the aircraft. If contact with my gender *truly* causes anxiety for someone based on their faith, I don't take it any more personally than when a Christian friend can't understand that I don't believe in Jesus Christ. An airplane ride, after all, is just a means to an end, and if we can't find a way to look through one another's eyes perhaps we all should just stay home.
1
The man should ask to switch with someone else, instead of insisting the woman move.
14
Why is the burden on the woman to change seats? Why can't the man find another place to sit?
14
The year is 2015. It is appearing that as time goes by many religions are becoming extream pushing aside tolerance, respect and kindness for selfish values held by a particular group. I am a kind person but I'm not a yuts. We are slowly being coerced into feeling bad for everything we do because we are offending someone. Tollerance goes both ways. Stop trying to be so "special" and possible people will respect you even more.
5
Has anyone pointed out that most religious "laws" hail from texts written when the religion was in its infancy hundreds, if not thousands, of years ago before the advent of flight? Things were a little different back then and maybe those rules and regulations about accidentally brushing up against the opposite sex did made sense then. But if the men who wrote those original texts were given the opportunity to take an airline trip today, their first response wouldn't be to fuss about who they could or couldn't sit next to. Their first response would be "Cool!"
2
Easy. They can buy two seats.
10
First I'd like to state the obvious. In this country, we have a thing called "separation of church and state". The Hasid has no more right to discriminate against a woman in the public thoroughfare, than the owner of the bakery in Indiana has to refuse serving an LGBT person. If I am forced to travel with a broken leg, I might just have to fly First Class. That option is available. I believe that would accommodate an ultra-orthodox need to not touch a woman. If that doesn't work, buy two seats. That's called personal responsibility, and strangely lacking here. In Judaism we have a thing called Tikkun Olam which means a responsibility to heal the world. That's a shared responsibility of ALL Jews.
25
A couple years back I was flying from Seattle to Bangalore via London by a British Airways flight. A white lady was assigned the window seat, myself middle seat and A Jewish lady the aisle seat. And, when the Jewish lady arrived (we both were seating), she refused to take her seat. I don't remember what I said to her, but not only she then took her seat but chatted with me all the way to London. A strange experience I had!
4
I am a woman, and if I was seated on a plane originating in New York City I would NEVER move to accommodate a religion that discriminates against me. If we are going to attempt to maintain a society where religious rights are upheld, no matter what the religion says about women, someone with the power to do so has to make a decision on which is more important. Is gender equality preeminent or is religion?
I view situations like this, as infrequent as they occur to be insulting. There is nothing about my gender that causes issues about whom I can sit beside. The problem was entirely the man's and he should have sat elsewhere or gotten off the plane. We simply cannot allow some religions to cling to belief that women are somehow the cause of their religious quandries.
I view situations like this, as infrequent as they occur to be insulting. There is nothing about my gender that causes issues about whom I can sit beside. The problem was entirely the man's and he should have sat elsewhere or gotten off the plane. We simply cannot allow some religions to cling to belief that women are somehow the cause of their religious quandries.
28
If your religious beliefs prevent you from sitting next to any woman other than your wife, then you really ought to stay at home or start your own airline catering to like minded extremists.
11
Or travel with your wife....
2
As a jew, who pays some attention to Torah, i'm always disappointed in fellow jews who assert a "holier-than-thou" attitude, for which they can find no support in either Torah or Talmud, rather than adhering to "Golden Rule" dictates.
19
If asked there is no way I would move for such a selfish reason. Such behaviour is the imposition of Hasedi beliefs on others. My religion requires me to sit in a window seat and only next to an empty seat, in First Class but I'm only allowed on religious grounds to buy an economy ticket. I wonder if I'd get away with it if I was wearing black and held everyone up long enough asking to swap seats?
9
This is MRS. Air travel is quasi-public transportation. Being what it is, no person has the right to make another move for whatever racial or religious preference is at hand. Holding up a flight because of religious restrictions should be prohibited. If that is happening, remove the offender and let the flight proceed. If sitting next to a person of the opposite gender is so offensive, charter your own flight to your destination. Better yet, form your own airline that caters specifically to your own needs and practice all the discrimination you want. That way, you control who sits where on that plane and your customs/preferences/practices won't offend anyone else, or delay everyone else from reaching their destinations until your "needs" are satisfied.
11
Religious persons have a right to ask for reasonable accommodation of their beliefs in public space. What they do not have a right to do is to demand, in effect, that others abide by their own sectarian rules. In a multicultural society with much religious diversity, it simply isn't possible to accommodate every kind of religious rule or taboo, and it isn't right to play favorites among religions. That is why separatism and isolation, rather than demands for special treatment in public, can be a logical answer for some religious rigorists.
The supposed ethical dilemma of a Haredi man sitting next to a woman is of no concern to anyone else. Any demand that a woman change her seat is not legitimate. Even a request is improper; because it suggests that the woman's presence is somehow "defiling".
Haredim can resolve their dilemmas by staying home, taking a ship, or consulting a rabbi for a different halakhic reading. If they raise a fuss on a airplane, they need to be booted off.
The supposed ethical dilemma of a Haredi man sitting next to a woman is of no concern to anyone else. Any demand that a woman change her seat is not legitimate. Even a request is improper; because it suggests that the woman's presence is somehow "defiling".
Haredim can resolve their dilemmas by staying home, taking a ship, or consulting a rabbi for a different halakhic reading. If they raise a fuss on a airplane, they need to be booted off.
26
and what would happen if a male of strict Muslim faith stood in the aisle and refused to take a seat next to a woman? Would he be accommodated so freely or arrested?
22
Is it different to stand next to a seated woman as it is to sit next to one?
1
Religions of all sorts rely on symbolism to articulate articles of faith and compliance with the values of that faith. Garments are often part of that symbolism. Would it be so difficult to design a coat that would contain a lining or itself be symbolic of the wearer's adherence to their faith? A coat with a special lining which signifies that the wearer is honoring their faith might help relieve the situation and the anxiety of those whose primary intent is not to offend others, but merely try to adhere to their faith.
If I buy a plane seat I have no right to control who sits next to me even of they are fat, drunk, unbathed, sick or anything else. If I want to control that seat I have to buy it. So should anyone else.
18
To those who see some underlying issue of anti semitism, recall that many Orthodox Jews don't consider Reform and Conservative Jews worthy. This is about traveling in a confined space and trying to do so with as little hassle as possible. When someone refuses to sit in an assigned seat and disrupts an already unsettling experience it is they who are being difficult. I will move for a comparable seat for anyone who asks politely.
7
I don't care if your religion doesn't agree with you sitting next to me. It is not my problem or the airline's. It is your problem and try to solve it without bothering and insulting people. Plan in advance or don't travel.
25
Well Hillary is announcing soon, so the War on Women campaign has to start sometime, right?
Please- This is a story? A few cases of seat switching requests hardly requires the attention of the supposed paper of record. This is clearly an attempt to highlight another "nutty" religious group for the purpose of casting anyone religious in a negative light. The fact that they are "conservative orthodox" is a bonus for the NYT, allowing the author to use the word with reckless abandon.
This is not about unreasonable seat switching requests. This is about casting anyone religious as backwards.
Please- This is a story? A few cases of seat switching requests hardly requires the attention of the supposed paper of record. This is clearly an attempt to highlight another "nutty" religious group for the purpose of casting anyone religious in a negative light. The fact that they are "conservative orthodox" is a bonus for the NYT, allowing the author to use the word with reckless abandon.
This is not about unreasonable seat switching requests. This is about casting anyone religious as backwards.
1
I beg to differ with your statement. one's religion is a private matter. When in public common space, they should do like the Romans in Rome. Or do like the French have, ban all religious ostentatious symbols from public display. why should I accommodate these selfish, controlling bigoted males, who tell me to my face that I am worthless because I'm a woman and that I should defer to his command. Next time I see these guys, I will insult them the way they insult me. I will do to them what they are doing to me. It is one of their biblical commands.
1
Can't it be both?
It is actually about blatant misogyny - the belief that women are polluted, inferior beings who should be obliged to move whenever a man wants them to, and whose own dignity, comfort and preferences are not even considered.
2
Can it be that we still allow such nonsensical degrading of women for "religious" reasons? Perhaps religion IS the problem, as the celibate Male God hates pleasure and especially those evil temptresses. They aren't even people in their own right, just extensions of men. This sick and twisted view of humanity is at the core of violence and hatred the world over.
Good for the woman who refused to accept she was unworthy because a man who is so convinced by his "beliefs", that she is unclean or will somehow contaminate him?
Let's talk about the real issue here. We are really concerned about being "polite" to men who call women "unworthy, unholy or unclean"? There should be no question that these men are hateful and discrimatory. We should not stand for it.
Good for the woman who refused to accept she was unworthy because a man who is so convinced by his "beliefs", that she is unclean or will somehow contaminate him?
Let's talk about the real issue here. We are really concerned about being "polite" to men who call women "unworthy, unholy or unclean"? There should be no question that these men are hateful and discrimatory. We should not stand for it.
22
A person with special needs for whatever reason should make arrangement with the airline when purchasing the ticket, or buy an extra seat next to them. If a passenger find he or she in an unacceptable situation, the passenger should seek the assistance of airline personnel and change his/her seat, they have no right to demand the other people to accommodate them. This is respect to all people! No one's need is above the other.
4
Why is it that in every case they are asking the woman to change the seat instead of finding a new seat to the man in trouble?
15
I would move only if I could get a better seat.
If not, then he should move to some crowded middle seat, not me.
Why does the man get to displace the woman because of his own misogynistic beliefs?
What arrogance!
If not, then he should move to some crowded middle seat, not me.
Why does the man get to displace the woman because of his own misogynistic beliefs?
What arrogance!
17
Why, oh why are religious groups imposing their private commitments on the public? There are the GOP anti-LBGT groups, ISIS groups, Orthodox Jewish men, Evangelicals, etc. Where does the love of their fellow man come in? I have never in my 60 plus years witnessed so much hate and imposition by so called religious believers. This has to end. If they must adhere to man made rules keep to themselves, stay home.
11
Why so-called? Are you saying that people who make unreasonable demands don't really believe in God or the tenets of their faith?
If a Jewish man can't control his libido and his sexual thoughts why is it the woman's fault? And why is he given preferential treatment over the woman who has as much of a right to a comfortable seat as a male does. When will women ever lose their second class status? And when will we stop being blamed for men being unable or unwilling to control themselves?
29
Here, here.
1
Yes, and if these men were in touch with the modern world, they could easily follow (Jewish) Woody Allen's advice on avoiding temptation when sitting next to a fabulous woman: Just close your eyes and start thinking about the Yankees. Or, worse, the Knicks.
1
I witnessed this behavior two weeks ago on a Delta flight from New York to Tel Aviv. The young man stood in the middle of the aisle, blocked people boarding the plane, and caused a delay because he refused to sit next to my friend. It took a few minutes to comprehend his objection...my friend is over 50 and was covered from head to toe. Perhaps her blonde hair made him nervous? This was not the only objector on the flight...it was as if these men had been coached on how to disrupt the boarding process until they got their way. The level of disrespect for the flight crew made me extremely uncomfortable. I asked the flight attendant if this was an unusual event. "Oh no. This happens on every flight to Tel Aviv." I was seated next to an Orthodox gentleman who was appalled by the behavior of a few. He suggested the airline ignore their request, and escort them off the plane, as they would any other passenger disrupting departure. And then I looked across the aisle, and saw a fluffy dog sitting on the lap of a passenger. I had to surrender my bottle of water purchased outside the boarding door of the plane, but it is ok to bring your fluffy dog on an international flight? We are clearly experiencing THE DEATH OF COMMON SENSE.
41
The person with the dog was violating FAA regulations. By law, that dog needed to be in a carrier, under the seat in front of the owner. While it's ok to take the carrier out once the plane is in the air, the dog (or cat) must remain IN the carrier for the duration of the flight. It's the flight crew's responsibility to enforce that rule. If they didn't, that's their fault.
1
If this disturbance is occurring on every flight to Tel Aviv, as the flight attendant states, then the airlines should post notices that seat changes for religious preferences cannot be accommodated and disruptive passengers will be removed.
1
People ask why someone wouldn't plan ahead for such eventualities on an airliner. Because that is not the point. The point is to make a public spectacle of your religiosity.
24
Can I refuse to sit next to an Orthodox Jew the next time I fly?
22
I don't think that religious beliefs should be given special accommodation status in society or the law. It might make me sound insensitive, but I think it is uncontrollable once you start. I think people are more sensitive to the Heredi's rights than they would be a Muslim man with a similar beliefs. (Perhaps you should poll that one).
There is a societal push to allow these rights to trump political and speech rights. I wonder how people would have reacted if someone had a firmly held religiously belief against separation of the races and requested a similar seat swap?
I spend a lot of timing working to get the possible seat on long flights. I pay upgrade fees, study seating charts (seatguru.com) to get a seat I like. I can't tell you the number of people with "weak bladders" or other stories who then try to convince you to move to a middle seat. I would say "no."
Once religious beliefs function as a wild card that trump other cards, people will find more and more religious grounds for special treatment. I am always polite and respectful to other people, but I would not move for a Heredi even if it meant a stand off. If an agent asked me to move, I would tell her that I regard gender equality equal the same racial equality. Based on my deeply help conviction, I would no more move to accommodate an anti-woman belief than I would for a member of the First Church of Aryan Nations who was opposed to be seated next to non-Caucasians.
There is a societal push to allow these rights to trump political and speech rights. I wonder how people would have reacted if someone had a firmly held religiously belief against separation of the races and requested a similar seat swap?
I spend a lot of timing working to get the possible seat on long flights. I pay upgrade fees, study seating charts (seatguru.com) to get a seat I like. I can't tell you the number of people with "weak bladders" or other stories who then try to convince you to move to a middle seat. I would say "no."
Once religious beliefs function as a wild card that trump other cards, people will find more and more religious grounds for special treatment. I am always polite and respectful to other people, but I would not move for a Heredi even if it meant a stand off. If an agent asked me to move, I would tell her that I regard gender equality equal the same racial equality. Based on my deeply help conviction, I would no more move to accommodate an anti-woman belief than I would for a member of the First Church of Aryan Nations who was opposed to be seated next to non-Caucasians.
22
It's time to stop making accommodations for barbarians of any faith.
If any medievally-minded religious zealots want to live in a world that conforms to their silly, superstitious, backwards worldview, let them live in their own little ghetto.
It's time the backwards people of the world stop freeloading off of our advanced technological civilization that would not exist if there were many more people as anti-modern as they are!
Get out and help push or sit by the side of the road and watch the rest of us recede over the horizon!
If any medievally-minded religious zealots want to live in a world that conforms to their silly, superstitious, backwards worldview, let them live in their own little ghetto.
It's time the backwards people of the world stop freeloading off of our advanced technological civilization that would not exist if there were many more people as anti-modern as they are!
Get out and help push or sit by the side of the road and watch the rest of us recede over the horizon!
13
So this is what "religious freedom" looks like in the friendly skies.
Enough. This "religious freedom" madness may originally have been designed by the right as a shrewd (if revoltingly undemocratic) strategy to undo civil rights laws and release business owners from the burden of regulation and compliance, but its real impact is to tear us apart as a people, giving ultra-conservative religious of all persuasions an unearned and incredibly corrosive right to ignore our common, secular tradition of law.
This isn't just about haredi Jews. These awful privileges, whether in the form of law or mere "courtesy," are now soaring to new heights of mischief thanks to John Roberts and the ghastly Hobby Lobby decision. They compel the rest of us to give way to ultra-reactionary Catholics and Protestants as well as to Jewish men who regard women, not as fellow-citizens in a democratic state, but as dangers and temptations and distractions.
Of course, it's not as if we aren't drawing some lines. Even as the ultra-orthodox of Christianity and Judaism assume ever greater power, our states are busily passing laws to protect against the encroachment of the most conservative strains of Islam. But that's really just the exception that proves the dreadful, cynical, unsustainable rule.
Enough. This "religious freedom" madness may originally have been designed by the right as a shrewd (if revoltingly undemocratic) strategy to undo civil rights laws and release business owners from the burden of regulation and compliance, but its real impact is to tear us apart as a people, giving ultra-conservative religious of all persuasions an unearned and incredibly corrosive right to ignore our common, secular tradition of law.
This isn't just about haredi Jews. These awful privileges, whether in the form of law or mere "courtesy," are now soaring to new heights of mischief thanks to John Roberts and the ghastly Hobby Lobby decision. They compel the rest of us to give way to ultra-reactionary Catholics and Protestants as well as to Jewish men who regard women, not as fellow-citizens in a democratic state, but as dangers and temptations and distractions.
Of course, it's not as if we aren't drawing some lines. Even as the ultra-orthodox of Christianity and Judaism assume ever greater power, our states are busily passing laws to protect against the encroachment of the most conservative strains of Islam. But that's really just the exception that proves the dreadful, cynical, unsustainable rule.
9
If this was a Westboro Baptist Fundamentalist saying couldn't sit next to a homosexual, or some fundamentalist Christian segregationist said they couldn't sit next to a black person this conversation wouldn't even be happening. Instead we would be reading about how they had been arrested and removed from the flight for failure to follow flight crew instructions.
End of story.
End of story.
19
I'm in the minority here, but I'd definitely move and not think much of it. If it's their religion and they're visibly upset by it, what can I do? I'm a pacifist and would just want to get going with everyone on the plane happy.
1
I am a pacifist too, until a bully tries to trump my rights.
2
This seems the "I won't make a gay wedding cake" issue--another case of leaders picking and choosing religious strictures as a way to discriminate against a class of people. F'r instance: Physical contact between a Jew and someone who has recently touched a dead body, a dead rodent or who masturbated without going through a ritual purification are all forbidden by Jewish law and would render any air passenger unclean, but I do not hear of Haredim asking if their male neighbor is a Mortuary worker or just finished pleasuring themselves. They just take that risk. So why not take the risk that they can control their own passions?
6
As shameful as bigotry is in a religious context, just as shameful to me is the acquiescence to bigotry by the airlines. Would they ask a black person to move so that a Klan member could be seated? Would they ask a Jew to be moved to seat a Jew-hater? Where does this end?
18
I prefer sitting next to women..maybe airlines can allow us to state our preference when booking our flight.
1
Oh please. What next? Hey dude that seat covering is a blend of textiles, look that up in your bronze age survival guide.
8
We encountered a similar situation on a flight where a Muslim woman didn't want to sit next to a man. She was in a hijab and fully covered but didn't want to sit next to him even though she was the aisle seat. She ended up next to my daughter.
1
Did she politely ask if someone would switch or dud age rudely demand the man be moved! Did she hold up the departure?
1
These Ultra-orthodox men are simply a nuisance, transforming a simple plane seating matter into a departure delaying transportation matter.
Their beliefs should be their burden not everyone else's. Accommodation should be the last resort, when the simplest solution is always easily available which is purchasing a second seat.
Society has become excessively accommodating when nobody has the ability to grin and bear it. That is true tolerance, countenancing people whom one can't stand.
Their beliefs should be their burden not everyone else's. Accommodation should be the last resort, when the simplest solution is always easily available which is purchasing a second seat.
Society has become excessively accommodating when nobody has the ability to grin and bear it. That is true tolerance, countenancing people whom one can't stand.
8
Most people seem to be responding from an intellectual place. i totally get that some men (or women) might not want to spend a very long plane trip dealing with the energy of a sexual being inches away. What's the big deal, in a plane with hundreds of people, with the flight attendants just asking folks if someone is willing to move?
For me this is one of the many repercussions of women wanting to be treated like equals and yet not being willing to admit that their presence can have an effect, especially on a man with high testosterone.
For me this is one of the many repercussions of women wanting to be treated like equals and yet not being willing to admit that their presence can have an effect, especially on a man with high testosterone.
It is high time that each man - whether Muslim, Orthodox Jewish, or whatever - gets it through his head that his own feelings, thoughts, bodily functions, and impulses is HIS, and his alone. Other people do not control him, other people do not have ownership over his testosterone, other people do not bear responsibility for what he feels or how he acts. THE MAN owns these things about himself and is responsible for them. Young girls are taught this at an early age- it is one of the main reasons there are so few women, relatively, who can't or won't control their sexual urges around strangers. But boys are told repeatedly that girls are the reason they get aroused or have sexual thoughts. It is all the girl's responsibility, and hence the boy never learns to mind his own business. He projects his emotions onto every female who has the misfortune to come his way. He is, mentally, a child. And when he doesn't get his way, he has a tizzy fit as with these grown men demanding that other people accommodate their neurotic manliness.
9
Really? So the onus should be on the woman according to you? Slippery slope, and yes it is a big deal.
9
It's up to the man to control himself, and if he can't, he must leave, or with a little foresight, avoid the situation entirely -- the woman cannot be expected to flee.
3
I think its ok as long as these men are flying back to the middle ages.....
32
The Haredi have to learn that we live in a secular society. Although, as a Jew I do not agree to how they choose to practice the religion though respect their right to do so, they too need to learn that sitting next to a member of the opposite sex does not lead to physical content. If a Haredi man cannot control himself, then I feel real sorry for him. And if they want a change, then they are the ones who should move to be accomodating, not force the female passenger to move. When my family took a trip to Israel, our flight home had a slight delay for this very reason. The Haredi walked up and down the aisles trying to find a volunteer to switch seats. It took awhile.
11
That man who held up your flight should have been escorted off the plane, sorry. Anyone else would have been forced off by TSA. More special treatment? Time for these people to wake up to the 21st Century, if they want to live in the Dark Ages perhaps they should find another mode of transport since ailines were not even invented then.
2
If the only woman he may sit next to is his wife, bring her along. Problem solved.
15
I think the wife is supposed to sit 7 rows back, not in an equal row to the man.
1
If their God wanted them to fly He would have given them wings.
Keep these religious extremists off any flight and the problem is solved.
Extras for religious beliefs is a no go in a modern society as religion is to be an entirely private matter which should not ever concern others.
Regardless of which religion.
Keep these religious extremists off any flight and the problem is solved.
Extras for religious beliefs is a no go in a modern society as religion is to be an entirely private matter which should not ever concern others.
Regardless of which religion.
19
OTOH would you deny him a kosher meal in-flight?
If you can eat on Yom Kipuur if you are ill, you certainly should be able to
sit next to a woman on a plane or subway. Intent is the key.
The problem is the seats are too small on airlines these days. Once
upon a time you could sit next to someone with room to spare and
will little or no possibility of contact.
the Orthodox men I know will simply offer a seat to a woman
and give her some room and then stand when on the subway.
Two mitzvahs for the price of one
sit next to a woman on a plane or subway. Intent is the key.
The problem is the seats are too small on airlines these days. Once
upon a time you could sit next to someone with room to spare and
will little or no possibility of contact.
the Orthodox men I know will simply offer a seat to a woman
and give her some room and then stand when on the subway.
Two mitzvahs for the price of one
8
Has anyone ever been on a trans-atlantic flight on a 747 and having a seat in the area of a washroom and an emergency exit with 3 to 4 orthodox Jews have imposed themselves to pray during the night covered with the prayer shawls?
If you have not, you are lucky. The constant swaying is enough exercise akin to a marathon and the sweaty aroma will make you want to stop breathing. Quite a spectacle and I wonder how and why permission is granted for that but not if a person wants to go to the washroom desperately.
If you have not, you are lucky. The constant swaying is enough exercise akin to a marathon and the sweaty aroma will make you want to stop breathing. Quite a spectacle and I wonder how and why permission is granted for that but not if a person wants to go to the washroom desperately.
13
Imagine the reaction if it were Muslims demanding similarly disruptive accommodation. They would be summarily removed from the plane, FOX News would be in high dudgeon, and there would be outraged congressional hearings on encroaching Sharia.
27
I have a rule of thumb: when somebody's cause or belief sounds like a report on Saturday Night Live, I tend to say, "bah, humbug." My position on this requires no soul-searching: I have no intention of changing seats on a plane to accommodate someone whose religion allegedly bans him from sitting next to a female. I look upon a passenger requiring such service the way I would look upon someone demanding to be allowed to smoke or not to have to fasten his seat belt. Rules are rules, buster, and if you can't observe them, get the heck off this plane and stop disturbing the rest of us with your selfish, nonsensical requirements. Rent a car, charter your own plane, hitchhike, or get together with your like-minded zealots and establish your own airline.
This religious mandate provides another pluperfect example of why most of us see the joker in the deck of caving in to demands for laws to protect the right of people, in the name of their religion, not to provide service to gays. Once you set the precedent, where does it end? Don't we end up having to respect the right of the guru leader of some religious cult to have sex with each female member of his flock once they reach puberty, if he tells us his religion requires it?
This religious mandate provides another pluperfect example of why most of us see the joker in the deck of caving in to demands for laws to protect the right of people, in the name of their religion, not to provide service to gays. Once you set the precedent, where does it end? Don't we end up having to respect the right of the guru leader of some religious cult to have sex with each female member of his flock once they reach puberty, if he tells us his religion requires it?
20
What's the big deal about changing seats? It's a courtesy in this situation just as it would be if the person had a physical disability. It's not like they are asking you to do something that is totally contrary to what you would normally do, like cover your face just because you're a woman. It's just basic tolerance. Lighten up!
1
These man have no disability other than thinking women are second class citizens. I for one would stand my ground and keep my seat. They seem to want everything and inconvenience all. That's sounds pretty selfish to me.
10
And where is the tolerance for women who hold up half the sky? Male privilege wins the day again. And hey, look what you have won! A dying planet filled with hateful, greedy, intolerant people. Great job, guys!
5
It is not tolerance, it's accepting he has a right to disrupt everyone else for his belief when you would be laughed at if you asked for it simply because it suited you. Anyone of any religion that thinks their religion is a trump card to use and and when needs to wake up and smell the coffee or reality.
4
Feel free to start your own segregated private airline. You might be able to partner with other religions that separate by gender.
16
The absurd nature of religion is nowhere more apparent that in the behavior of the ultra orthodox. My dad was Jewish. He became the leader of The New York Federation of Jewish Philanthropies - but he never lost his utter contempt for the ultra - and he found Zionism dangerous. When religion is used to exclude, religion is no longer healthy. When religion is used to control others, that religion has lost its emotional center and destroyed any hope of tolerance.
Many die in the name of religion.
That religion that does not put the interest of the child ahead of all other is not a relation that matters to me.
I want to hear about the religion that tolerates all others, rejecting those that are intolerant, speaking out against the exclusionary and controlling elements so common to the world's religions.
Freedom of religion does not suggest the right to inhibit the freedom of others.
It starts with tolerance and with interest in raising good children, not with exclusionary controlling elements that void the value of any religion.
Many die in the name of religion.
That religion that does not put the interest of the child ahead of all other is not a relation that matters to me.
I want to hear about the religion that tolerates all others, rejecting those that are intolerant, speaking out against the exclusionary and controlling elements so common to the world's religions.
Freedom of religion does not suggest the right to inhibit the freedom of others.
It starts with tolerance and with interest in raising good children, not with exclusionary controlling elements that void the value of any religion.
26
We need to stand up for modernity now. I am Jewish and am vehemently against this sort of accommodation. You have the right to practice your religion, teach it to your children, and even set up enclaves with similar people but you do not have the right to put your beliefs unto everyone. Should the plane schedule around for calls to worship or force women to cover their hair? Or LGBT people have to be in their own section because you think they are sinners. Women are not allowed on the bimah and cannot be leaders in this strand of Judaism. So sick of hearing that our roles as women are different but equal. Sounds so familiar. It wasn't right with Separate but Equal and it is not right in this circumstance. A little assimilation it not such a bad thing. We are all humans sharing this planet.
29
Over 60 years ago when I was eight years old, I realized what a crock religion is. Once again I am reminded of the rightness of that conclusion after reading this article. If an Orthodox Jew is afraid of sitting next to a woman, he should buy two seats or not travel at all.
13
People with an extreme seating need should choose their seats in advance. I've been high pressured to move away from sitting with my husband to accommodate people traveling with children. Why couldn't they have contacted the airline in advance to explain they needed to sit with their small children? And why can't these men arrange to travel together, or just buy two seats? Also I don't know how they handle it when a woman is forced to go past them to enter or leave her seat on the same row, even when they are seated next to a man. Do they ask for a row that is all male, I assume?
8
Re: traveling with children. It's not that simple. I've booked flights that where you list the children's ages (3 and 5 for example), it tells you seats can't be booked right now. You check back later, you get to the airport, and they've scattered your seats all over. So it's up to the harried mom to beg and plead for seats together. Believe me, no mother intentionally seats her 3 year-old in a separate row. (And many thanks to those who've shuffled seats to help a traveling parent fix the airline's seating error.)
1
I don't like to sit by bigots, whether they are bigots for religious or other reasons. But to allow this would lead to those christians saying that they couldn't sit by unwed mothers, or people who had had abortions. One step backwards to not letting black people sit by whites. If the orthodox do not want to sit by women, let them lease their own planes. The Bible is a history of the Jews and of the oppression of women. Look at the story of Adam and Eve. Poor Adam, a slave to his animal passions, fell under the spell of Eve? Get over it.
14
I witnessed this on a flight to Israel. I found it particularly sexist snd disgusting. The assumption was to inconvenience the woman rather than the man.
I say if an airline is going to allow this kind of behavior, then allow the passengers to arrange accommodations with the airline before the flight, not immediately at the time of boarding.
I say if an airline is going to allow this kind of behavior, then allow the passengers to arrange accommodations with the airline before the flight, not immediately at the time of boarding.
18
To the extent that we accept any religious person’s beliefs as a reason to discriminate or otherwise diminish the rights of others, we lessen the rights of all. Reason must supersede the vast variations of faith based religious ideas or we become subordinate to a plentitude of concepts that trample freedom. Believe whatever you want, but don’t expect or demand others to lessen their lives to accommodate your beliefs.
13
Simple solution - the person who wants to dictate who sits beside them pays for the full row of seats.
Either that or he accepts the airline allocates the seats.
Probably the guy who insisted that the black woman move to a different seat did not even consider her feelings of hurt and discrimination.
Bad decision by the airline. He should have been told: 'That's your seat. If you don't want it leave the plane'.
Either that or he accepts the airline allocates the seats.
Probably the guy who insisted that the black woman move to a different seat did not even consider her feelings of hurt and discrimination.
Bad decision by the airline. He should have been told: 'That's your seat. If you don't want it leave the plane'.
15
Don't want to sit next to a woman? Stay home. It's not up to us to give up our rights and comfort to please a few bigots. Women are supposed to be equal in this country. You don't like that? Tough.
19
This is the famous "Box of Pandora" that is opened when you impose "Religious freedom" in the way to limit the freedom of somebody else. And as nobody seemed to mention, that is exactly what happened with the "Religious freedom restoration act" in Indiana.
Your religious right is higher then the other person right to be seated where she likes.
Your religious right is higher then the other persons right to be served pizza.
Somebody spots a difference?
Your religious right is higher then the other person right to be seated where she likes.
Your religious right is higher then the other persons right to be served pizza.
Somebody spots a difference?
12
I'm a practicing Conservative Jew.
If ultra-Orthodox Jewish men do not wish to sit next to women, they should buy the adjoining seat or see if they can get El Al to fly to their preferred destinations and provide single-gender seating rows.
Assuming that both parties are appropriately clothed for travel in public transport, there is no reason that an ultra-Orthodox Jew cannot sit next to someone whose appearance presupposes that they are not of the same gender as their seatmate. If they try to shake your hand, you can tell them that it's not appropriate to have that kind of physical contact with someone of the opposing gender who isn't a family member. Being polite will do wonders to improve how the ultra-Orthodox are perceived by the rest of society.
Life is not a contest for Jews to see how religiously observant we think we can be by taking somethings to inappropriate conclusion.
Folks, you probably wouldn't like it if someone (of either supposed gender) wouldn't sit next to you because you were a Jew. Don't give them ammo to feel that way.
If ultra-Orthodox Jewish men do not wish to sit next to women, they should buy the adjoining seat or see if they can get El Al to fly to their preferred destinations and provide single-gender seating rows.
Assuming that both parties are appropriately clothed for travel in public transport, there is no reason that an ultra-Orthodox Jew cannot sit next to someone whose appearance presupposes that they are not of the same gender as their seatmate. If they try to shake your hand, you can tell them that it's not appropriate to have that kind of physical contact with someone of the opposing gender who isn't a family member. Being polite will do wonders to improve how the ultra-Orthodox are perceived by the rest of society.
Life is not a contest for Jews to see how religiously observant we think we can be by taking somethings to inappropriate conclusion.
Folks, you probably wouldn't like it if someone (of either supposed gender) wouldn't sit next to you because you were a Jew. Don't give them ammo to feel that way.
16
Okay, if this is what your religion calls for, fine.
But why insist the woman move? The man with the objection should be the one who moves.
But why insist the woman move? The man with the objection should be the one who moves.
14
He may. But still it is a trouble, because the process delay the flight.
Especially, when there is no available seat for him and he insists to get off, it will cause a whole new trouble; the airline company should reprocess the baggage that is already put. Imagine someone wants to get off from the airplane. His baggage SHOULD be removed too. You never know what that person's intention. It's a basic safety rule for terrorism.
In short, even when he tries to move, it still can delay the flight. I would not call that a "solution."
Especially, when there is no available seat for him and he insists to get off, it will cause a whole new trouble; the airline company should reprocess the baggage that is already put. Imagine someone wants to get off from the airplane. His baggage SHOULD be removed too. You never know what that person's intention. It's a basic safety rule for terrorism.
In short, even when he tries to move, it still can delay the flight. I would not call that a "solution."
1
It may be a "conflict of values," but the intolerance on display in the behavior of these ultra-orthodox men seems to be enabled by airlines. If I spent 20 minutes delaying seating I expect I would be ejected from the flight if not arrested. The unspoken concern here is a concern that this behavior may foster anti-semitism.
16
It is all about trying to get it their own way irrespective of how it affects others.
They should state their "condition" at reservation and, if need be, pay for it in money or comfort looking for another airline that will accommodate them.
They are NOT entitled to any preferential treatment nor shouldbe allowed to claim it at others' convenience!
Courtsy is a TWO way street
They should state their "condition" at reservation and, if need be, pay for it in money or comfort looking for another airline that will accommodate them.
They are NOT entitled to any preferential treatment nor shouldbe allowed to claim it at others' convenience!
Courtsy is a TWO way street
8
I don't get why the woman has to move to accomodate the orthodox man. Why doesn't HE move?
20
What a sad life these people must lead, unable and unwilling to experience the pleasure of being in close proximity to a woman, talking to her and looking into her eyes.
The fact that an artificial construct like religion would be able to distort the fundamentals of human nature to such an absurd extent is extremely sad, and completely pointless.
The fact that an artificial construct like religion would be able to distort the fundamentals of human nature to such an absurd extent is extremely sad, and completely pointless.
10
This appears to be publicly-traded, image-conscious companies enabling misogynist bullies for profit. A class-action lawsuit might encourage the airlines to rethink their policies. It seems like many of the commenters in this section could make excellent plaintiffs in such an action.
10
If their is a way to make life more complicated, less logical, more fearful and less respectful of our fellow men and women, there is an organized religion out there to make sure it happens.
9
Can't they arrange their seating before they are boarded on a flight? If somebody has these extra seating requirements, charge THEM extra money -- or if they demand that someone else must move to accommodate their needs, let them pay the person they want moved.
6
It's time for male-suprepacy-opportunists to drop their irresponsible, hate-filled male-invented superstition, privilege and fraud. We don't need their silly HATS-COSTUMES-ATTITUDES that are rude and insulting to women. FYI, guys: women are NOT inferior to you! Your irresponsible parents did a rotten job raising you. What a shame.
9
Ah, but it's not phrased as inferior. It's presented as separate but equal, and women, perfectly at home in their separate and protected sphere, will not --of course--desire any more.
And because of a separate educational system--now paid for by the state, thanks to the charter school movement--it's likely to stay that way. Without exposure to other influences, it's hard to know the options.
And because of a separate educational system--now paid for by the state, thanks to the charter school movement--it's likely to stay that way. Without exposure to other influences, it's hard to know the options.
1
When someone's "understanding" of one's religion imposes on others, it's their problem to deal with, not the others'. That requires their notifying the airlines beforehand, and failing there, having the courage, courtesy and readiness to politely communicate with people on the plane, including women, rather than being silent, awkward, angry. If the situation still can't be rectified, God knows that the person tried, so then take a deep breath, and put up with being sexually stimulated by the female in the next seat who has absolutely no interest in the person. This is, in short, the problem with those who segregate themselves too much - they don't recognize context, that no woman sitting next to them will try to seduce them (all non-orthodox), and that they have the ability/responsibility to control what happens in any case.
6
Two words: Rosa Parks.
16
Why is it the women's responsibility to move? I fly frequently and I choose my seats for specific reasons. If one of these men ever refuses to sit next to me he can move his bum elsewhere because I will not be moving mine.
14
I know better than to argue with this woman. She's my sister.
These are commercial transactions no religious or faith reasons should be brouight to bear. These men are not "trying to follow their faith" they are imposing costs on others who are using public, commercial services. If these men do not understand that their notion of religion does not give them any right to disrupt the lives of others, we are back in a theocracy. Everyone on that plane bought their tickets, the crew and airport need to be able to do their jobs. These men are breaking the law.
4
I understand your logic, but in actuality they are not violating the law unless they are interfering with the safety of the flight. Seeing as how these situations have garnered more publicity lately, I expect the airlines will resort to implementing a policy of having an area of seating dedicated to accommodate passengers with observance-specific needs. This way everyone is able to travel without issues and the airlines avoid the possibility of law suits in this litigation-happy society.
1
There are many ways to insure that you fly comfortably - and none of them involve inconveniencing others. Pay more, explain your needs to the airline - but do not show up and expect the world to turn on a dime. Airline travel is a secular experience - and we are all equal in flight.
8
How does El Al deal with this problem, i.e., the ultra-orthodox man who failed to buy his ticket in a manner which guaranteed protection of his religious sensibilities (first class, or with a group of similarly situated males who could lager up, as it were)?
5
These religious folks should have known and could have bought all adjacent seats anyway. If they refuse without this forethought, they should be removed from the plane. Simple as that
5
If someone tries to remove them from the plane, that process still delay the flight. The schedule on the take-off lane should be redone, and all baggage should be reprocessed. Not simple as it seems. The flight will be still delayed.
This seeming religious diktat illustrates a striking randiness among Haredi men, and a lack of trust and confidence in their own self-restraint. Who is raising these men? The flip side of this obsessive and repressive prudishness is extreme misogyny and hidden abuse, as we've seen in recent events.
14
This should not be left to the passengers to sort out. The airlines should remove the offending passenger if they are causing a delay in the flight.
15
There have been over 2000 responses to an article I just saw in my morning (print) edition in NYC. So, I may be repeating a sentiment already put forward. But here is mine:
I am a Jew. Do not make accommodations to ultra religious Jewish men who do not wish to sit -- they mean touch -- women who are not their wives or family. That is their problem. They should live of the world or not. If they are of the world, they need to deal with it. If not, then they need to read, study, and stay home.
I am a Jew. Do not make accommodations to ultra religious Jewish men who do not wish to sit -- they mean touch -- women who are not their wives or family. That is their problem. They should live of the world or not. If they are of the world, they need to deal with it. If not, then they need to read, study, and stay home.
14
My grandmother, of blessed memory, was the daughter of a highly respected Orthodox Rabbi who brought his congregation to NYC before WW2. He road the public bus system and always looked straight ahead. She saw him on the bus and decided to play a little joke on him. She sat next to him and jostled and bumped into to him. Only when they reached their stop did he see it was his own daughter! He breathed a sigh of relief, smiled, and gently chided her. Where there is a will, there is a way.
5
It is certainly ironic that Muslims and Jews,although pitted against each other in the Middle East, both share primitive, anti social customs.
They seem more like 'brothers' in religious customs rather than enemies.
They seem more like 'brothers' in religious customs rather than enemies.
14
Those men should be the ones that have to try to find a seat that meets their crazy religious rules.
I would never move because of some antiquated religious rule. How completel disrespectful of them.
I would never move because of some antiquated religious rule. How completel disrespectful of them.
6
Imagine if the man refusing to sit next to a woman was a conservative Muslim. Imagine.
6
Although it's rooted in madness I wouldn't make any problem to switch seats with one of those guys. I'd do so not only in his own benefit, but in that of the rest of the passengers and the flight's. Let's not waste our and others precious time and be some more practical.
A plain isn't actually a place to set or defend religious or moral beliefs. There is plenty of time off board.
A plain isn't actually a place to set or defend religious or moral beliefs. There is plenty of time off board.
1
If you were a woman you would not feel so accommodating about this, I promise you.
Buy an extra seat...don't expect others to accommodate you. Would I change to a better seat? Yes. Would I change to a less comfortable seat? No. If my faith required me to do something, it is also a requirement of my faith that I am the one responsible for making arrangements to allow it.
6
Airlines don't need customers like this. Escort them off the aircraft, don't refund their money, and point them in the direction of the nearest donkey dealer. In the airline business there really is no time for this nonsense.
9
Why are they allowed to delay the flight for 15 to 20 minutes? I can only imagine the fate of anyone else who stood in the aisle and refused to move. They'd be put off the plane!
12
I would gladly move to an equal or upgraded seat to avoid sitting next to some religious nut out to take over the world with kids who will grow up just as intolerant and ignorant as their father and grandfather. All airlines should now require ticket buyers to agree to equal treatment of all passengers or not be sold a ticket. Presumably, some enterprising operator could start an airline only flying between NYC and Jerusalem and limiting ticket sales to ultra Orthodox Jews. It is no different than refusing to bake a wedding cake for two gay persons. (or is that illegal?) If this is what "diversity" is all about, I don't want it in our democratic republic.
5
"“It’s very common,” said Rabbi Yehudah Mirsky, an associate professor of Judaic studies at Brandeis University. “Multiculturalism creates a moral language where a group can say, ‘You have to respect my values.’ ”"
No, "multiculturalism" means you leave your quaint jihadi-evangelical-hasid hobby at your front door and live in the world.
Or stay home. It's puzzling that a religion/hobby that observant of quaint scriptural dictates would allow one to fly on an airplane in the first place.
No, "multiculturalism" means you leave your quaint jihadi-evangelical-hasid hobby at your front door and live in the world.
Or stay home. It's puzzling that a religion/hobby that observant of quaint scriptural dictates would allow one to fly on an airplane in the first place.
16
I'm a Jewish guy. The answer is simple, doesn't require Talmudic law.
If an Orthodox man wishes to fly without touching a woman, he should (a) charter his own plane or (b) buy two seats.
People can hold any religious belief they wish, but not in a manner that infringes upon the rights of others.
If an Orthodox man wishes to fly without touching a woman, he should (a) charter his own plane or (b) buy two seats.
People can hold any religious belief they wish, but not in a manner that infringes upon the rights of others.
14
I was flying back to San Francisco from Amsterdam and two Hasidic Rabbis in full uniform came on to the plane last, which was full,,and were very upset they had to sit next to me. One man was in his 70s, the other around 20. No one on the plane would move and the plane was full of laughter. The older one sat next to me to protect the young one. The airline staff tried to be very nice to them.
A couple of hours in the older one fell asleep and leaned over with his head lying on my shoulder and his scarf falling on my lap. The entire plane was laughing, the younger rabbi was in shock and didn't know what to do. I just let him sleep. He woke up a couple of hours later, very embarrassed, and started furiously reading from a Hebrew bible. He was very physically upset.
He never apologized or acknowledged I was even there. The whole situation was ridiculous.
A couple of hours in the older one fell asleep and leaned over with his head lying on my shoulder and his scarf falling on my lap. The entire plane was laughing, the younger rabbi was in shock and didn't know what to do. I just let him sleep. He woke up a couple of hours later, very embarrassed, and started furiously reading from a Hebrew bible. He was very physically upset.
He never apologized or acknowledged I was even there. The whole situation was ridiculous.
14
I like the story, but how did you know they were rabbis?
It's not "religion" or "orthodocy" or "Jews".
It's a public conveyance. You know what you bargain for when you buy a ticket.
If your concepts require you - stress here on the "you" to sit with a man, then travel with one in an assigned seat next to you, or buy 2 tickets.
The public domain cannot cater to the religious/ethnic/unreasonable predilections of the few.
New York City has been enabling this sort of behaviour in the various enclaves regarding closing (public) streets for religious reasons and making other accommodations which will increase and expand to eventual civic/social strife similar to that which occurs overseas from whence these customs originated.
And we know how that is working out, don't we?
It's a public conveyance. You know what you bargain for when you buy a ticket.
If your concepts require you - stress here on the "you" to sit with a man, then travel with one in an assigned seat next to you, or buy 2 tickets.
The public domain cannot cater to the religious/ethnic/unreasonable predilections of the few.
New York City has been enabling this sort of behaviour in the various enclaves regarding closing (public) streets for religious reasons and making other accommodations which will increase and expand to eventual civic/social strife similar to that which occurs overseas from whence these customs originated.
And we know how that is working out, don't we?
6
"The public domain cannot cater to the religious/ethnic/unreasonable predilections of the few." Or, at times, the MANY! Even if one lives in a neighborhood that is predominantly one religious group, ethnic or cultural group, or political group, we all have rights. The powers that be need to look after all constituents, not just one group.
Airlines must make sure at the time of booking, so people avoid any inconvenience.
2
Why should the airline companies take care of this illogical, irrelevant request? Do they also have to consider the potential passenger's feeling against other races? Can someone ask "not to sit next to ulta-orthodox jew" or "Parkistani"? This is just discriminative.
By the way, how can airline companies know your gender before boarding? Except some international flights, we don't report our sex or gender. Do you think it's that effective to "assume" someone's gender based on their names? I doubt it.
By the way, how can airline companies know your gender before boarding? Except some international flights, we don't report our sex or gender. Do you think it's that effective to "assume" someone's gender based on their names? I doubt it.
It's not the airlines responsibility...it's the traveler's responsibility. If they can't make the effort to assure they have seats that are acceptable, that's their problem....not the other passengers and not the airlines. If there are multiple Orthodox men traveling on the same flight, it's up to them to make their reservations far enough in advance to reserve seats together. The only responsibility the airline has is to get the passengers from point A to point B, safely and in a reasonable amount of time. If a passenger is creating a disruption that will impact that, the passenger needs to be removed from the flight....by force if necessary. On a flight out of Chicago, I was seated one row behind the exit row. An older man, who was apparently foreign (as evidenced by his accent and interesting phrasing in the English language) was seated in the opposite, exit row. As soon as he sat down and put on his seat belt he started reading from a book. When the flight attendant (a woman) approached to do the FAA spiel about being willing and able to assist in the case of an emergency, he ignored her. She repeatedly asked him if he would/could comply. FAA regulations require verbal acknowledgement which he pointedly refused to give. Long story shorter, he refuse to agree or move so he was removed from the flight...by 2 of Chicago's finest.
2
I most certainly would NOT change my seat to accommodate what is nothing more than religion-based prejudice. My civil rights trump his religious beliefs.
10
If this ever happens to me, I will refuse to move. ---- them. Jewish woman btw.
6
Female gender is always discriminated against in almost all organized religion, think about it. This really need to be stopped.
9
That's because men wrote and interpret religions.
If you're modern enough to fly, you're modern enough to sit next to the green, black, white, yellow, LGBT, male, or female passenger who has purchased the seat next to yours. Otherwise, plan ahead and buy the seats for the whole row so you won't have to suffer in this life or the next.
12
Compare this to how women are treated when they need to breastfeed their child on an airplane.
11
I think women should refuse next to Hasidic men. These guys are so oversexed, they fear they might uncontrollably erupt with sexual arousal when they sit next to a woman not their wife. I don't know what they are thinking but as a woman I would sure stay away. There is something seriously wrong with these guys. Don't touch them, women.
It is like the monks of Mount Athos in Greece. They don't even allow female goats on their part of the peninsula. I don't want to even know what feelings they are afraid of.
It is like the monks of Mount Athos in Greece. They don't even allow female goats on their part of the peninsula. I don't want to even know what feelings they are afraid of.
6
What's next? Female flight attendants should be redeployed in case they touch these men while serving their drinks?
Female passengers should be reassigned to middle/window seats to prevent these men from being touched accidentally on their way to the bathroom (especially when the plane flies through turbulence)?
Should evacuation be segregated as well as god forbid one of these men be touched by a woman on the way down the slide?
Female passengers should be reassigned to middle/window seats to prevent these men from being touched accidentally on their way to the bathroom (especially when the plane flies through turbulence)?
Should evacuation be segregated as well as god forbid one of these men be touched by a woman on the way down the slide?
12
Isn't the problem that the ultra-Orthodox believe that they are the Chosen People and that the rest of society has to cater to them because of that assumption? What about their absurd (truly absurd to any rational human) demand that cities string wires around the neighborhoods where many of them live so they can walk around on the Sabbath and not violate the prohibition on doing so? Idiocy, and idiotic for public officials to accede to it.
9
I disagree on that point. Erecting an eruv makes the lives of Orthodox Jews easier without inconveniencing others in the least. Refusing to erect an eruv would impose unnecessary hardship on Sabbath-observing Jews - and how would the general public benefit?
If an ultra-orthodox man refuses to sit next to a woman to avoid sexual temptation, the burden should be on the man, but not on the woman. I just can't understand the logic of ultra-orthodox society.
7
You dont understand the logic of ultra orthodox because it is anti logic and anti enlightenment. It is a darkness on the Spirit of mankind.
It would be quite a scene to have a young ultra-orthodox man tell an elderly woman to move seats to accommodate his religious beliefs. He can't very well say he's tempted by her, so it must surely be about his belief in male superiority, as if that weren't already the case.
12
I propose a deal for women asked to change their seats: ask for the cost of a first class seat in exchange for it. Cash, in hand before changing seats.
9
“Multiculturalism creates a moral language where a group can say, ‘You have to respect my values.’ ” Says it all. If one feels that his values conflict with common practice, it is his responsibility to isolate himself if he wishes, No one else is required to "accommodate" his beliefs..
9
If these zealots are so eager to live in the 13th century, why don't they travel via 13th century means of transportation? If they can't control their dirty libidos, then they should wear blindfolds. But who gives them the right to impose their religion on anyone else? The airlines should not accommodate such sexism, nor should any passengers.
15
I don’t think others’ religious beliefs must make sense to me. Objective facts about how arousing an overtired female traveler could be are beside the point, and I won’t make fun of others’ beliefs.
But I draw the line at yielding to these demands. It’s bad for a pluralistic society. Seen in isolation, a community-minded person might think “Oh, just switch seats, if it means so much to him”. But consider the slippery slope.
Elana Maryles Sztokman, an Orthodox Jewish Israeli, author of “The War on Women in Israel” described being forced to switch airplane seats by an Orthodox man as part of an intensifying erasure of women’s public presence “including gender segregation on buses; erasing their faces in newspapers and ads; the silencing of women's voices in the army; and prominent female politicians being barred from conference and events.”
In some places in Israel, women have been told to sit in the back of the bus—so men don’t have to walk past them. She describes a woman doctor, given a lifetime achievement award, who had to watch via video as a man accepted the award in her place-- it wasn’t “proper” for her to appear before men. The trajectory is towards women neither being seen, nor heard.
If this isn’t enough to scare us, consider that something allowed any one religion must be allowed them all. If you aggregated all the prohibitions of every religion, consider how little freedom would be left for people in general—and almost none for women.
But I draw the line at yielding to these demands. It’s bad for a pluralistic society. Seen in isolation, a community-minded person might think “Oh, just switch seats, if it means so much to him”. But consider the slippery slope.
Elana Maryles Sztokman, an Orthodox Jewish Israeli, author of “The War on Women in Israel” described being forced to switch airplane seats by an Orthodox man as part of an intensifying erasure of women’s public presence “including gender segregation on buses; erasing their faces in newspapers and ads; the silencing of women's voices in the army; and prominent female politicians being barred from conference and events.”
In some places in Israel, women have been told to sit in the back of the bus—so men don’t have to walk past them. She describes a woman doctor, given a lifetime achievement award, who had to watch via video as a man accepted the award in her place-- it wasn’t “proper” for her to appear before men. The trajectory is towards women neither being seen, nor heard.
If this isn’t enough to scare us, consider that something allowed any one religion must be allowed them all. If you aggregated all the prohibitions of every religion, consider how little freedom would be left for people in general—and almost none for women.
21
In some places in NYC there are gender segregated buses and gender segregated events on public streets.
Excuse me, they can do exactly what the airlines and many passengers expect fat people to do: buy TWO seats next to each other so they have a buffer area.
15
Three would be better yet .
1
How ill are men who can't sit next to a woman without getting aroused? If they lack that much impulse control, aren't they a danger to themselves and the public?
12
Exactly. Indeed.
Bronze Age intellects in the post-Enlightenment era. It's hard to believe there are still grown adults believing in magical beings. And, seriously, are they not embarrassed to be worshiping a god that cares whom they sit next to on a plane?
12
I wish I can refuse sitting next to an obese person who will spill out into my space. Let's go there.
11
This is not all about Orthodox men...I was on a flight from Kabul to Dubai and the single woman who was seated next to me asked the flight attendant to change her seat. When the English speaking guy who took her seat sat down he explained that she was uncomfortable sitting next to a non-believing male. Women can be bizarre also.
7
I do not believe it .
2
Are some of these men using this method to get a better seat?
9
When I travel on a plane I am always "tempted" to lay claim to both arm rests. My elbows need a home. Both of them. And yet I am mindful that when I fly I am in a public and shared space that brings together strangers who, like me, also have two elbows. I don't lay claim to both armrests (even though I loathe sharing them with outsiders) because I understand that unlike religious and political beliefs we all end up at the same destination no matter how much our ticket cost. If Orthodox Jewish men refuse to share their assigned seat with a fellow passenger who is female then airlines owe it to women passengers to sell Orthodox Jewish men two seats on the plane: one for him and the second for his religious beliefs.
10
Another example of the ludicrousness of airline policies. I was told by an airline that anti-discrimination policies prevented them from insisting that an obese man sitting next to me put his arm rest down and keep his legs out of my leg room. The obese and the Orthodox are increasing in number and growing in power.
8
This reminds me of the Hasids in Williamsburg complaining about hipsters biking thru their neighborhoods and not covering up. Really? on public streets?
Close your eyes and shut up.
Religious people and all their arcane customs get on my nerve. Stay in your synagouge or church or mosque and you can practice your witchcraft there. When on public property no one cares about your rituals and biases.
Close your eyes and shut up.
Religious people and all their arcane customs get on my nerve. Stay in your synagouge or church or mosque and you can practice your witchcraft there. When on public property no one cares about your rituals and biases.
18
Maybe the best solution is for these ultra-orthodox men to buy the adjacent seat as well to ensure that it is empty. To expect the woman to move is ridiculous and offensive.
16
If a Muslim man or an Arab had refused to move from the aisle and delayed the plane, he would have been dragged off that plane so fast by a battalion of armed TSA agents. Why wasn't this man arrested?
19
"Airlines, and flight attendants, are often caught in the middle. " NO! The law is very clear. There is no "middle" on this issue.
Asking for a seating change is fine. But that is simply a request and an answer of "no change is possible" or even "no change is convenient" must be fully respected.
Causing a flight delay -- is a violation of the law and should be prosecuted.
Asking for a seating change is fine. But that is simply a request and an answer of "no change is possible" or even "no change is convenient" must be fully respected.
Causing a flight delay -- is a violation of the law and should be prosecuted.
31
No matter the particular religion, there comes a point where zeal overtakes reason, and things like the seating and even standing controversies are a classic example. Just read Deborah Feldman's book 'Unorthodox', about her life growing up as one of the Satmar Hasidim, and you'll get the idea.
My own odd little encounter came as a third-year medical student, assigned to obstetrics in a hospital in an area with a very large Hasidic (mainly Satmar, whom I'd find out were amongst the most 'ultra' of the ultra-Orthodox) population. My job one fine Saturday afternoon was to assure a first-time father, a Satmar chap all of 19, that his 18-year-old wife was doing fine. He looked at my name tag, showing a name actually quite common in that neighbourhood, and asked "Are you Jewish?" "Yes", I replied. "No, you're not." "What do you mean, I'm not? I'm as Jewish as Menachem Begin (then Prime Minister of Israel)." His retort: "You're working on Shabbos [the Sabbath]." "I'm on duty today. Your wife is having a baby on Shabbos." His answer: "Yes, but it wasn't my idea." It was all I could do to keep a straight face and refrain from asking "Then whose idea was it?" That's what happens when zeal transcends logic. You CAN'T make this stuff up.
My own odd little encounter came as a third-year medical student, assigned to obstetrics in a hospital in an area with a very large Hasidic (mainly Satmar, whom I'd find out were amongst the most 'ultra' of the ultra-Orthodox) population. My job one fine Saturday afternoon was to assure a first-time father, a Satmar chap all of 19, that his 18-year-old wife was doing fine. He looked at my name tag, showing a name actually quite common in that neighbourhood, and asked "Are you Jewish?" "Yes", I replied. "No, you're not." "What do you mean, I'm not? I'm as Jewish as Menachem Begin (then Prime Minister of Israel)." His retort: "You're working on Shabbos [the Sabbath]." "I'm on duty today. Your wife is having a baby on Shabbos." His answer: "Yes, but it wasn't my idea." It was all I could do to keep a straight face and refrain from asking "Then whose idea was it?" That's what happens when zeal transcends logic. You CAN'T make this stuff up.
21
You should have sent them home and let the little special one deliver 'his' own child.
1
They can't be drafted, are unemployable, and receive government stipends in Israel.
1
Interesting that these comments are largely devoted to two types of thinking: 1) how offensive it is to demand that you not sit next to a woman; and 2) helpful hints on ensuring that you won’t sit next to a woman!
7
Funny, if I went on a plane and there was an Orthodox man sitting next to me and I asked the flight attendant to move me because I "didn't feel comfortable sitting next to an Orthodox Jew" it would be on the Today Show in two seconds and I'd be labeled an anti-Semite.
30
Is it okay not to sit next to a Black person? What about a gay person? These bigots can buy multiple seats.
25
I used to fly on Saudia, the state-run airline in Saudi Arabia. Muslim women would refuse to sit next to me, and I was always the one asked to move to another seat.
Many of the commenters below have been critical of the Hasidim for their position on this. I wonder how many of them would feel the same way about Muslim women doing the exact same thing.
Many of the commenters below have been critical of the Hasidim for their position on this. I wonder how many of them would feel the same way about Muslim women doing the exact same thing.
10
And THAT is why you will not find ME on a SAUDIA flight .Problem solved .
4
I feel the exact same way. She has no right to a male free seating section and don't expect the country you are flying to to accommodate these practices. Fly an airline or live in a country or community that is in accord with your beliefs.
1
Yes, not just in Saudi Arabia but some other Muslim countries as well.
There is, however a difference with the Saudi airlines and that is the law.
As soon as they enter Saudi controlled airspace or even international airspace and Saudi law, the carriers home state law,takes over their own laws state that it is illegal for non married people of different sexes to sit next each other for fear of religious issues or improper results of such "contacts".
Same story in principle but different laws.
Religion is a pest of modern society and should be kept strictly to private use.
There is, however a difference with the Saudi airlines and that is the law.
As soon as they enter Saudi controlled airspace or even international airspace and Saudi law, the carriers home state law,takes over their own laws state that it is illegal for non married people of different sexes to sit next each other for fear of religious issues or improper results of such "contacts".
Same story in principle but different laws.
Religion is a pest of modern society and should be kept strictly to private use.
1
I wouldn't move. This is their problem, not mine. And I will hold my tongue and not get into a discussion with the Hasid about inappropriate it would be if he got sexual pleasure from just sitting next to me. I know the feeling wouldn't be reciprocated. I also wouldn't tell him how offensive I find it that I must be the person being inconvenienced. Oh, and I am Jewish as well. Reform though.
18
Superstitious nonsense. But it doesn't hurt for them to ask, and when they do, accommodate if possible. If it isn't possible, then they must accommodate you. It isn't another passenger's duty to uphold their religious beliefs.
10
TSA gives me enough grief before I get to my seat . I really do not need a bearded fanatic to give me more grief . I paid for the flight and was assigned the seat . The End .
4
Don't waste the other passengers' time by playing musical chairs for 15 minutes. Remove the individual suffering from princess-and-the-pea syndrome straightaway, with no refund. The next time, he'll know to buy two seats. Or he can find a freighter to carry him across the Atlantic.
65
"Religious freedom" in the skies and on the ground must never infirnge on the rights or dignity of others. What's next? Asking gay married people to move? Asking Muslims to move? Asking transsexuals to move? No. Practice freedom AND tolerance, everywhere.
37
The person that does not want to sit next to a woman can simply buy two seats. Done.
31
In the case where switching seats will be extremely disruptive I can understand refusing. What, however has become of common courtesy? Why is it so ridiculous to exchange seats with someone who is uncomfortable in theirs? Don't we provide alternative meals for vegans? Hindu's? Jews? Would you give up your bulkhead seat for a 7'2 woman who doesn't fit into her coach one?
People have religion just as they have allergies (I know many of you like that one!) food preferences, sun sensitivity and everything else which makes us individuals.
Be kind.
What I see is an intolerance which is growing and inspired by those who stand to benefit.
People have religion just as they have allergies (I know many of you like that one!) food preferences, sun sensitivity and everything else which makes us individuals.
Be kind.
What I see is an intolerance which is growing and inspired by those who stand to benefit.
3
What you are missing is that often it is the woman who is asked to move. It's not as if the Orthodox man asked someone to switch seats with him.
4
Tallness is not a choice and having a vegan meal prepared for someone else is is very different from picking and choosing who can sit where based on race, gender, religion, or whatever arbitrary distinction a holy book might suggest.
1
I strongly agree.
I am an In-Charge Flight Attendant and this happened to me on one of my first flights to Israel from Montreal...The Jewish gentleman would not sit down because his seatmate was a mature (Jewish) woman...I must admit I was not aware of the reason for his refusal to sit down and I was at my wits end as I frantically perused the aircraft and could see the flight was full...AIR Canada does not tolerate flight delays and we were in danger of losing our slot time for our flight over the Atlantic...and when you are delayed you must request a new slot time which during the busy months can be up to an hour later....
Finally an adorable handsome young Jewish man got up from his seat and came to my rescue...he then went about telling about 4 passengers where they had to move to and everyone acquiesced and we were on our way...
What I found so interesting as this very modern looking young man...at sunrise got up from his seat put the black band around his arm and something on his forehead and commenced to pray...while in his seat saying his prayers...He did not come to an emergency door as many do and interrupt our service...and block our galleys ...as many do... but just quietly
followed the precepts of his religion without bothering anyone...
I will never forget that flight! I subsequently did many flights to Israel...and they were not like any other flights anywhere. The passengers are very undisciplined but certainly not boring. All in all I enjoyed working those flights.
Finally an adorable handsome young Jewish man got up from his seat and came to my rescue...he then went about telling about 4 passengers where they had to move to and everyone acquiesced and we were on our way...
What I found so interesting as this very modern looking young man...at sunrise got up from his seat put the black band around his arm and something on his forehead and commenced to pray...while in his seat saying his prayers...He did not come to an emergency door as many do and interrupt our service...and block our galleys ...as many do... but just quietly
followed the precepts of his religion without bothering anyone...
I will never forget that flight! I subsequently did many flights to Israel...and they were not like any other flights anywhere. The passengers are very undisciplined but certainly not boring. All in all I enjoyed working those flights.
8
I see a book in this...
1
While my take on the ethics of this is quite simple: no one should feel compelled to relinquish his/her seat to accommodate the Orthodox gentlemen mentioned in the article, I would suggest a much easier solution: create a market for the inconvenience.
When this situation occurs, an airline flight attendant would simply explain the situation on the PA and anyone not seated next to a woman on either side would allowed to bid. The bidding would start at an arbitrary amount--let's say 500USD. This would be a reverse auction, with passengers calling out the value of surrendering their seats in decreasing intervals of 20USD until a price point is determined.
Perhaps someone would surrender his/her seat for 0USD, perhaps not, but the Orthodox men would have to pay for the trouble they are causing--which is a far more efficient, fair, and effective method than what transpires now.
Better still, the money would go to the inconvenienced passenger, not the already fee-happy airline.
When this situation occurs, an airline flight attendant would simply explain the situation on the PA and anyone not seated next to a woman on either side would allowed to bid. The bidding would start at an arbitrary amount--let's say 500USD. This would be a reverse auction, with passengers calling out the value of surrendering their seats in decreasing intervals of 20USD until a price point is determined.
Perhaps someone would surrender his/her seat for 0USD, perhaps not, but the Orthodox men would have to pay for the trouble they are causing--which is a far more efficient, fair, and effective method than what transpires now.
Better still, the money would go to the inconvenienced passenger, not the already fee-happy airline.
14
Men are easily aroused sexually, … sometimes even by a leaf blowing across a lawn. a whiff of snow in the air, the smell of fresh laundry…
A handicap, perhaps, but I have always assumed that the phenomenon is in the service of evolution and let it go at that: most men, in fact the overwhelming majority,are able to contain themselves when that stress is upon them.
A wonder then that Yahweh in his infinite wisdom (but apparent shortness of compassion) did not see fit to get rid of falling leaves.
And lawns…
But with the best of humors, and even able to overcome my personal revulsion towed the "holier than thou" sense of entitlement that the religious seem to take as their birthright, I don't think… *I* KNOW …that if other than religion were offered as an excuse for such unwarranted gall, the Air Marshall's would be on the plane in a nano second to remove the offender and perhaps even arrest him (our send him for psychiatric evaluation).
And I'm for that as a way of getting the plane into the air on time.
That's what I signed up for.
And not to be embroiled in yet another conflict with some bizarre sectarian religionist over some imaginary privilege that is not forthcoming or necessary… and is, peripherally, a personal insult to *I,* a Woman!"
Norma Manna Blum
A handicap, perhaps, but I have always assumed that the phenomenon is in the service of evolution and let it go at that: most men, in fact the overwhelming majority,are able to contain themselves when that stress is upon them.
A wonder then that Yahweh in his infinite wisdom (but apparent shortness of compassion) did not see fit to get rid of falling leaves.
And lawns…
But with the best of humors, and even able to overcome my personal revulsion towed the "holier than thou" sense of entitlement that the religious seem to take as their birthright, I don't think… *I* KNOW …that if other than religion were offered as an excuse for such unwarranted gall, the Air Marshall's would be on the plane in a nano second to remove the offender and perhaps even arrest him (our send him for psychiatric evaluation).
And I'm for that as a way of getting the plane into the air on time.
That's what I signed up for.
And not to be embroiled in yet another conflict with some bizarre sectarian religionist over some imaginary privilege that is not forthcoming or necessary… and is, peripherally, a personal insult to *I,* a Woman!"
Norma Manna Blum
23
This is discriminatory against and should not be accommodated. End of story.
18
Given that this behavior has been reported multiple times and now anecdotally in these comments, each airline should post its policy and inform the flight crew on how to proceed. I want to be assured that there will be no pressure or expectation for me to change my seat.
33
I would suggest that this behavior is not only to disrupt the seating process, but to try to embarrass the woman that is being asked to relocate, and to exhibit some sort of power over her. The airlines are complicit in this, it is their job to assign seats. I agree that if you have a problem being seated next to another human being, you should purchase two seats. In any event, crammed into coach, everyone has had some unpleasant flying experiences. If you can't handle being with hundreds of assorted people in a confined space, stay home. Its public accommodation and nobody should have to move because somebody wants to be rude.
46
Many comments on this thread site the Haredi men's arrogance. I feel this is the real issue, above and beyond the obvious fact that the laws in this country are secular. This arrogance is a direct expression of precisely how these men are treated within their communities, and how they treat their women. It's not about their being tempted by female hormones. It's about their power as males in a preposterously male-dominated culture/religion. They expect to be treated as privileged. They are told their gender is privileged everyday of their lives. They do not know how else to think. They are acting out what they are told about themselves more than they are obeying their laws. The Amish have the dignity to keep their much more democratic beliefs at home. Too bad about this group.
70
This happens maybe once in every 10 flights. What happens every time upon arrival is that many of the orthodox jump ahead in the immigration queue or ask a half dozen relatives to join them ahead of you . The same happens in the taxi lines. If you are a woman they will often avoid eye contact and get in front of you. It makes for a great first experience in Israel.
32
There's an unstated type of misogyny going on here. Ultra-orthodox men who politely negotiate with other passengers, including female passengers, to trade their own seats are not a problem. The problem is passengers who arrogantly assert a "right" and often refuse to even acknowledge a female passenger's right to sit in the seat she purchased.
I wonder how much unwillingness to approach other passengers, including female passengers, hat in hand and ask if they would mind swapping seats is what drives the problem.
I wonder how much unwillingness to approach other passengers, including female passengers, hat in hand and ask if they would mind swapping seats is what drives the problem.
39
Such extremism is the cost of a superstition-based life. These extremists know that Jewish law does not forbid accidents. They know that driving an ambulance to save a life on the Sabbath or even Yom Kippur is permitted, yet when I lived in Israel I saw instances where orthodox Jews stoned ambulances for violating the Sabbath. Religious extremists of every stripe get no sympathy from me.
55
Nor me !
Their behavior is not according to Jewish tradition. The Rabbis of the Talmud and modern Chassidic Rabbis have always taught that the Sabbath and even Yom Kippor may be violated to save a life. Man was not created for the Sabbath the Sabbath was created for man.
1
if these men are so incapable of controlling their behavior, perhaps they should either arrange for a separate flight specifically for them; or request a section of the plane (at the back) be reserved for their group.
20
I really don't think this is about sexual discrimination or hate. The airlines should do their best to accommodate such requests. If the flight is sold out then communicate to the traveler when the next flight will be available to full fill that request and let the traveler make his own choice. Business class seating is the obvious solution. I am sure equally religious people or some charity can get people to donate their miles for some pool to address the cost issue.
1
Hey - if someone wants to give me their donated miles so that I can sit in business class instead of in the galley - I'll find a "religious conviction" too. :-)
1
"such requests"? Do you think you can ask the airline to put you not next to black/asian/homosexual/transgender/kid or what so ever? Why airline company should take such a discriminative action? Also in many case, they cannot see if the seat owner is man or woman? Are you sure you can tell the person's gender 100% by their names in real life?
This is obviously sexual discrimination issue and "request" to handle it itself is discriminative. Do you have guts to request not to sit next to African American for ANY reason? No excuse.
This is obviously sexual discrimination issue and "request" to handle it itself is discriminative. Do you have guts to request not to sit next to African American for ANY reason? No excuse.
1
I recently experienced a slightly skewed version of this scenario. Last month on a flight from Warsaw to NYC, a Hasidic gentleman sat between me and another woman. Before he fell asleep we chatted (I was surprised he was so friendly to me, a woman!) and he told me he hadn't slept in two days. Then for the next 8 hours, he was passed out so deeply, his body ended up draped over all three seats. As much as we tried to nudge him and outright move him, he never woke up and my seatmate and I had as much contact with him as one can have without blushing. It was quite hilarious, and also sort of gratifying to me to think that sometimes matters of the body trump all these silly religious fetishes we make up.
24
Don't fly a commercial airline if you don't want contact or a seat next to a woman. I do not have to honor your requests to move from my seat just because you have a religious belief. If you consider it an "insult" to your religion, that is your choice.
29
Right on !!
It seems to me a way to assert dominance as a male over a female. Hence I wouldn't likely move if asked.
35
If I boarded and saw I was to sit next to a Hasid, I'd demand another seat. Oh. I'd probably be arrested.
36
I don't understand, but can sympathize with the man's religious views, however it should be up to him to find the solution. The offense is when he wants her to accommodate him. If a woman wants to be generous and change seats good on her; but it is not, and should not be made, her responsibility to do so.
23
Very hard to understand why airport security isn't called in for these cases...
28
Exactly.
Why didn't the man move? Why was the woman supposed to do so? Perhaps the flight crew could have found him another window seat if that was his preference. Or he could have taken a middle seat with a man on each side. That was surely consistent with his religious belief.
15
If I stood "in the aisle, refusing to move and delaying the departure for 15 to 20 minutes," I would be taken off the plane in handcuffs. I guess some people are more equal than others.
69
Sorry Haredi, your rights end where mine start. I have given up seats to moms with babies, to help out parents whose children have been distributed all over the plane by the airline, to a blind woman who needed to sit next to her daughter, but there is no way I'm giving up an aisle seat to a man on the basis of religion. Buy the whole row if sitting next to a woman is so offensive to you.
46
Agreed !!
Haredi men should not be permitted to travel without their wives along with them. That way, the wife can always be seated to block off the Haredi fellow with the self-control issues from presenting a consequent danger to other passengers.
43
Not permitted by whom?
If this so important then buy two seats so no one needs to sit next you.
22
What about all the Haredi women who end up sitting next to men on airplanes? No one is talking about their prohibition or sexual desires!
23
Please don't give those women an idea.
I will summarize the 2000+ thoughts: this is all about very bad manners.
21
So much for woman rights. When does one right trump another right. If he has a special rewuest make it before you fly.
8
When I was flying back from Israel in 1991 a Jewish religious man sat next to me, in the aisle seat, then later moved to another seat.
To all people asked to move, refuse! Don't ever give in to this insanity. Tell them to ____ ___ it.
36
This is not that different than a baker who refuses to make a cake for a gay wedding. It doesn't matter what your God says, you need to treat your fellow citizens with respect.
34
Actually,it is quite different. In some states it is legal for a baker to refuse to make a cake for gay wedding.There’s no law that allows any to demand that another airline passenger move his or her seat on an airplane.
1
Actually, it's not anything like that. The bakery involves a business that hangs its shingle out to serve the general public, yet wants to deny service to targeted customers. The airline seating involves two different customers of the same business.
Just tell him to talk to the flight attendant if there's a problem with his seat. Simple enough. Then the airline can re-seat him somewhere else.
Odd his faith prohibits him from sitting next to a stranger silently, but does not prohibit him from initiating a conversation with her.
Odd his faith prohibits him from sitting next to a stranger silently, but does not prohibit him from initiating a conversation with her.
19
Simple matter for me. When I make reservations, I reserve an aisle seat. It isn't arbitrary or just a preference but a medical need (which I won't go in to because it's nobody's business but mine). If someone objects to sitting next to me for religious, political or any other reason....that's THEIR problem. Let THEM move. Period. End of discussion. If they don't want to, let them catch the next flight.
44
Such ultra-odd behavior excludes the very Jewish principle that accidents don't count as sins. If a man accidentally touches a woman who is not his wife, it means nothing - unless he is ignorant and misguided. He isn't held accountable for such mistakes on Yom Kippur. I am appalled that others should be inconvenienced in the slightest by the misplaced fervor of the so-called "ultra-orthodox". How petty do they think God is that He would care about such accidents while a Jew shows respect for God's other creations?
34
Wow, these men must have hyperactive libidos if they are afraid of getting turned on sitting on an airplane!
33
Public transportation is not part of the so-called "Jewish tent". I don't know of any other religion which requires its believers to demand non-believers to change their behaviors in public.
44
these religious men need to purchase two tickets
57
Why wasn't the man who blocked the aisle arrested and removed from the plane? Under what circumstances would anyone else be allowed to behave that way?
121
The security issues that would follow from removing a person from the plane under these circumstances are profound. His checked luggage would have to be removed, and any areas that he ha been in on the plane would have to be searched to make sure he did not leave a device behind.
1
This happened to me on my latest flight to Israel. I'm Jewish but to me this is sexism cloaked in religion plain and simple. The haredi man wouldn't even talk to me. His daughter ordered me to move, not offering another seat just teling me to find one, insisting that I was insulting his religion if I didn't. I said that he was the one insulting me based on my gender and if sitting with men mattered so much to him, he could have bought the seat next to him or arranged to sit with a male friend. In the end, she changed with her father and sat next to me, glaring the whole flight. The sexism of the ultra-religious (of any faith, Christian, Jewish or Muslim) isn't to be tolerated because it's cloaked in religion. It's still sexism, so call it what it is.
211
This has to be the biggest non-story of the year. What ever happened to the old saying "The customer is always right?" Airlines are in the service industry and I'm reasonably sure they do their best to meet the needs of all their passengers regardless of race, religion or gender. So the now problem is that Orthodox Jewish males don't want to sit with strange females they're not related to or whether the food is really glatt kosher when traveling? Does anyone else realize how absurd this sounds? I bet El Al has the most expertise at accommodating the demands of their Orthodox Jewish clientele. The traveling public has more impotant things to worry about like whether their pilot is having a good day so he won't endanger their lives by letting his personal problems interfere with his job. Sheesh, get a grip!!!
3
If the customer is being an inconsiderate, sexist jerk who is holding up the flight because he demands that others inconvenience themselves to indulge him, then no, he is not right.
It matters if your flight is late, especially if you miss a connection, because the flight attendant had to waste time dealing with this behavior and the takeoff was delayed as a result.
As an Orthodox leaning Jew, I don't particularly agree with Orthodox Jews refusing to sit next to a woman and I think that in most cases this should be addressed at the check-in counter. If no seat change is possible, then the Orthodox Jewish man should make a choice between taking the seat that he has been assigned or skip the flight all together.
Interestingly this makes me think of the Ethics column in the Sunday Magazine a few years ago when the Ethics journalist condemned Orthodox Jewish men for refusing to shake hands with a woman. In that case, Mr Cohen was very wrong. Not shaking someone's hand for your beliefs, and not out of rudeness, is a choice that should be respected
Interestingly this makes me think of the Ethics column in the Sunday Magazine a few years ago when the Ethics journalist condemned Orthodox Jewish men for refusing to shake hands with a woman. In that case, Mr Cohen was very wrong. Not shaking someone's hand for your beliefs, and not out of rudeness, is a choice that should be respected
14
What is the difference?
If someone says that he will not touch you because you are Jewish, do you think you will not be offended and just "respect"? Do you really think some who refuses to shake other person for his "belief" genuinely respect that other person except handshaking part? Like, women to the Orthodox Jewish men in general? Can you imagine someone dare to say that to African American in this country?
A discrimination is a discrimination. Simple and clean.
If someone says that he will not touch you because you are Jewish, do you think you will not be offended and just "respect"? Do you really think some who refuses to shake other person for his "belief" genuinely respect that other person except handshaking part? Like, women to the Orthodox Jewish men in general? Can you imagine someone dare to say that to African American in this country?
A discrimination is a discrimination. Simple and clean.
4
I'd tell them to shove it and if they don't like it, take the next plane.
44
So as a male I can sit next to an orthodox Jewish man on a flight while enjoying a hot pulled pork sandwich with it's delectable aroma wafting in his direction.
53
Somehow fundamentalist Christians, orthodox Jews and extreme Muslim need to come to terms with the fact that their religious requirements can not supersede the rights of our very diverse human species. What just God require an observant to demonstrate arrogant behavior toward other humans.
81
Actually,under Jewish Law, “Derech Eretz Kadman Le’Torah”-“The laws of the land-civility,decency,respectfulness,politeness supersede the Torah.”,not the other way
around,as you suggest.
These men are violating Jewish Law by behaving this way.
around,as you suggest.
These men are violating Jewish Law by behaving this way.
4
They should book first or business class. If they end up seated next to a woman, they'll have no problem finding someone in coach willing to exchange seats to solve the problem. Expensive solution, yes, but when a person is truly dedicated to his ideals he is willing to sacrifice for it.
54
They problem is that they do not feel that they are the ones who need to change seats. In your scenario, he would expect that the woman in business class ride coach.
1
Do you find them worse than the Chinese or Pentecostal Black people? Oh wait, writing something like that about a particular type of person would be racist. Please don't print this NYT. I don't want to offend your "standards".
I think this piece is getting such a strong reaction because women (and those who like women) have had enough of these attempts by religious extremist of all kinds to control women's bodies.
In Kansas and other states Christian men pass laws to prohibit women from controlling their own uterus. In Indiana people can discriminate against customers based on religious beliefs. Islamic extremism around the world, with total male ownership of women is on the rise. Now Haredi men try to control where women can sit on airplanes!
Enough already - I am not having it. I do not have any obligation to respect or defer to any religion that is demeaning to women.
The comments here suggesting that this behavior is not so bad, because it is targeted based on gender and not on race are unbelievable.
In Kansas and other states Christian men pass laws to prohibit women from controlling their own uterus. In Indiana people can discriminate against customers based on religious beliefs. Islamic extremism around the world, with total male ownership of women is on the rise. Now Haredi men try to control where women can sit on airplanes!
Enough already - I am not having it. I do not have any obligation to respect or defer to any religion that is demeaning to women.
The comments here suggesting that this behavior is not so bad, because it is targeted based on gender and not on race are unbelievable.
133
I, for one, would be happy to relinquish my seat to spare an ultra-religious man the horror of sitting next to my roiling hormones, but only on the condition that a First Class seat was available.
67
It seems that isle seats are the common denominator. Could it be a ploy to get out of having to sit three deep next to the window? Hadasi know full well that planes are designed like cattle cars and that they have a even chance of sitting next to a woman. Air travel is not some inalienable right. If you don't approve of the airline's seating arrangements then don't fly on the airline.
33
It really is a religious thing. Some years ago, when I was introduced to an orthodox woman I extended my hand to shake hands. It was met with embarrassment and some amusement by others present. Sitting next to a perfumed woman who is manufacturing pheromones can distract most men. For those who lead a somewhat sheltered life in a different kind of community it can be difficult. However, there is no right to inconvenience other passengers.
1
If it is so important to them, let them buy 3 seats and have the whole row
42
Religious fundamentalists don't deserve a free pass just because they follow one faith as opposed to another. We have a secular society for a reason.
63
If a religious or political fanatic disrupts or annoys other passengers and/or disrupts or delays the departure of the flight then that individual should be escorted off the plane. If they are allowed by the airline to delay or disrupt the departure of the plane all the aggrieved passengers on that flight should sue the airline. And then it will never happen again.
67
I'm a Reform Jew. Three years ago, on a Thursday evening flight to Newark from Denver, two haredim got on and each had a middle seat in (United Economy Plus) row 4 in front of me. I had the aisle seat in row 5. I was sitting next to my wife Judy who didn't mind the middle seat. One of the haredim would have had to seat between two women and said to the flight attendant, in not very articulate English, that he couldn't sit there between two women. The flight was sold out. There wasn't a spare seat to be had. Moving people would have been a Rubik Cube exercise. The flight attendant was quietly flipping out as she had no clear understanding of the issue and no obvious solution.
After watching this little drama for a couple of minutes, Judy said switch with lady in front of you. Still seated, I reached around the seat chair in front of me and tapped the shoulder of the woman sitting in the aisle seat in the "Row" and asked if she minded if we traded seats? She said no and I stood up, looked the haredi in the eye and loudly said "I'm a Yid. I'm going to sit in the aisle seat next to your seat in the middle. The lady in window seat will stay where she is. If you want to be home before Shabbos, sit down in your assigned seat. If not, get off the plane!" He sat down.
After watching this little drama for a couple of minutes, Judy said switch with lady in front of you. Still seated, I reached around the seat chair in front of me and tapped the shoulder of the woman sitting in the aisle seat in the "Row" and asked if she minded if we traded seats? She said no and I stood up, looked the haredi in the eye and loudly said "I'm a Yid. I'm going to sit in the aisle seat next to your seat in the middle. The lady in window seat will stay where she is. If you want to be home before Shabbos, sit down in your assigned seat. If not, get off the plane!" He sat down.
73
Anyone who disrupts the plane and its personnel for ANY reason should be shown the door, I've seen it happen. This madness has got to stop and these people ought to either charter their own plane or find another method of transportation.
1
I am 25 years old, definitely a feminist (I deal with sexism regularly working in a male-dominated industry), and would happily exchange seats.
I am not Jewish but as an undergrad was in a group of friends that included a few young men who practiced this no-contact custom. I can't tell you how many times I forgot/lost track/misunderstood and would accidentally go in for a hug, only to laugh off the awkward encounter with them seconds later. Yes, to an outsider like myself, some traditions' seem archaic; however, I always admired my friends' dedication to their religion and refusal to let societal trends govern the practice of their faith. As a Christian, it is a principle I try to apply in order to strengthen my own beliefs.
The customer could have requested this a) in advance or b) at least once on board, done so discreetly; however, the outrage around this article stems from a gross misunderstanding and an unwillingness to coexist.
--Amanda
I am not Jewish but as an undergrad was in a group of friends that included a few young men who practiced this no-contact custom. I can't tell you how many times I forgot/lost track/misunderstood and would accidentally go in for a hug, only to laugh off the awkward encounter with them seconds later. Yes, to an outsider like myself, some traditions' seem archaic; however, I always admired my friends' dedication to their religion and refusal to let societal trends govern the practice of their faith. As a Christian, it is a principle I try to apply in order to strengthen my own beliefs.
The customer could have requested this a) in advance or b) at least once on board, done so discreetly; however, the outrage around this article stems from a gross misunderstanding and an unwillingness to coexist.
--Amanda
5
With all due respect, I must disagree with you. Public transportation is just that, rather than a place to extend one's religious practices out of his or her own personal space. A Jewish man who won't sit next to a woman must, religion aside, be afraid that the very presence of a woman will excite him to the point of violating his beliefs, is that what you are saying? He can't be trusted to control himself? Our rights end where others' begin, and I would never change my seat for this reason. This is a good case of religion getting in the way of everyday life. Maybe these people should take a cruise or buy out the adjacent seat and leave everyone else in peace.
47
Yeah. The tantrum in the aisle and delaying other travelers is a bit out of order. As you say, if you have a special request, make it known during the booking process...requires kosher meal and, due to religious restrictions, may not be seated next to a woman.
7
Although your kindness is admirable, there is a clear difference between remembering not to hug someone in social situations and accommodating onerous gender-based restrictions in what is meant to be a public conveyance. Anyone who cannot tolerate sitting next to someone of the opposite sex on an airline should request an aisle or window seat and purchase the seat next to him/her as well. It is unfair, particularly on a crowded flight and without any prior arrangement, to expect others to vacate a seat they have chosen and paid for. We don't segregate seating on buses by race anymore either.
5
The avoidance of women is not religious observance, it is misogyny.
As a woman, it makes me feel like a second-class citizen or as though I am noxious.
I am Jewish btw.
As a woman, it makes me feel like a second-class citizen or as though I am noxious.
I am Jewish btw.
98
it is neither misogyny or religious observance. the jewish religion does not require this kind of separation between the sexes.it is custom which changes over time. one person in an earlier post had it right. there is a race to prove who is more frum or religious or to show more piety than other orthodox people. if you want to live that way fine but not off my back.
2
No one can make you feel anything. You are in control of how you react or respond to those around you. If you "feel" like a second class citizen, you will always be one.
Their behavior is selfish and rude, and maybe even dangerous. If someone refuses to give up their seat, and the religious guy persists, he should be removed from the plane and arrested.
58
I guess the airlines will just have to decide if they want female passengers or just Hasidic (medieval) Jews? So what is it going to be? I think in this instance the lady parts appear to have a very large majority.
32
The premise that these ultra-Othodox Jews are so weak that they would be susceptible to sin says a whole lot about how poorly they were raised.
If sitting next to a woman on an airplane is an invitation to dirty deeds, as ultra-orthodoxy would have it be known..one might also suggest that jewelry stores not put their wares in the window because it would encourage complicit theft.
If sitting next to a woman on an airplane is an invitation to dirty deeds, as ultra-orthodoxy would have it be known..one might also suggest that jewelry stores not put their wares in the window because it would encourage complicit theft.
28
Pretty simple, If you want extra space on an airplane, just buy it, or sit down for the ride like everyone else.
1
Its not that he can't sit next to women that offends me the most its that its the woman who has to make the accommodation to alleviate his discomfort. In many cultures and religions the women are forced to carry the burden of not "offending" the men who might get turned on. They wear Burkas, are isolated to the balcony in orthodox temples, are not allowed to walk alone or drive etc. It may be a religious law established centuries ago- but it originates and perpetuates the inferiority of women
109
In cultures where it is accepted that men cannot control themselves around women, why is it always the expectation that the women have to take measures to police their behavior so as not to "tempt" men, and not the opposite? If this Haredi man will be too tempted sitting next to a woman, why not buy another seat, or ask to move, or not fly at all, rather than demanding she move from her seat? If men in Saudi Arabia cannot be trusted around women they are not related to, perhaps they should stay home and only go out with a chaperone in their family, and women could walk around freely. Even in our country, our solution to rape is to tell women to police their behaviors, such as not being out past a certain time or wearing a certain outfit. Why not just tell all men to stay home past a certain hour so that women are safer, rather than telling all women to do so? Women could then walk freely at any time and place with much less risk. Because the presumption has always been that to be out freely in the world is the right of men, and that women should change their behavior to accommodate whatever the perceived needs of men are, including limitations on their right to be wherever they want. Most people would think the suggestion that all men should not be out past a certain hour risible but give no thought to the fact that women are told this all the time....
100
Wonderful comment! And crime would decrease astronomically!
Much ado about nothing! How does it matter if we just accommodate to such a request? They are not life and death questions. We have many much more important issues needing attention; we should leave these types of "news" to "drawing room discussions."
2
@Dr. MB: "How does it matter if we just accommodate to such a request?" Wow, ever heard of having to sit in the back of the bus?
A man who "can't" sit next to a woman and expects the WOMAN to accommodate him is wrong on every level.
A man who "can't" sit next to a woman and expects the WOMAN to accommodate him is wrong on every level.
6
It is not just seating.
It is their entire sense of entitlement about Everything that is so offensive.
It is their entire sense of entitlement about Everything that is so offensive.
6
Interesting that you denigrate this discussion as inconsequential, relegating it to the drawing room which is traditionally the domain of women - but you still feel compelled to stick your oar in.
Just sayin'.........
Just sayin'.........
1
If someone stands in the aisle and delays the flight and they are not Haredi they are usually removed from the flight and arrested. How come they are getting not only special accommodations of seating, but being permitted to violate the law as well? Is it that they will follow only the Torah laws but not anyone elses? Because f that's the case they are digging themselves a deep hole. If you choose to live in a country, you follow the laws of that country or there are consequences. No choice an adult makes comes without consequence.
80
I've had this happen to me on both flights I've taken from San Francisco to Tel Aviv and not given up my seat.
Religiously motivated or not, how is telling a person to move to another seat because they don't want to sit next to a woman different than asking Rosa Parks to give up her seat and move to the back of the bus because they don't want to sit next to a person of color?
Religiously motivated or not, how is telling a person to move to another seat because they don't want to sit next to a woman different than asking Rosa Parks to give up her seat and move to the back of the bus because they don't want to sit next to a person of color?
111
The demands of these Hasidim that women move to accommodate them on airplanes are absolutely unacceptable. Airlines or the FAA should have a clear rule that a ticket holder sit where he/she is booked or get off the airplane and allow it to proceed without delay.
64
Where are the class action lawyers?
The women who have been asked to move should sue the airlines for gender discrimination.
The women who have been asked to move should sue the airlines for gender discrimination.
49
I think you think you're kidding, but you're absolutely right about suing.
The issue is not respect or tolerance of someone's religious views. The issue is being compelled to adhere to someone else's religious views. Moreover, it is clearly the expectation of the ultra-orthodox traveler that he be permitted to sit in his assigned seat, and that his seat mate must conform to his religious beliefs. Therefore, if that seat mate is a woman then they must move. Because, the observant man might be tempted in some inadvertent, trivial way by said female seat mate despite that woman's complete obliviousness to the potential discomfiture of her fellow traveler.
If you force me to observe your religious beliefs and I choose not to, then who is in fact being disrespectful? It is completely unreasonable for an ultra observant person to expect accommodation for their beliefs in the secular world. What would Plato think?
If you force me to observe your religious beliefs and I choose not to, then who is in fact being disrespectful? It is completely unreasonable for an ultra observant person to expect accommodation for their beliefs in the secular world. What would Plato think?
69
isn't this now a common problem on busses in Israel?
1
I don't know any religion that doesn't favor men over women. These men are uncomfortable? Welcome to a woman's world, where we always have to be wary of the other 50% of the population. Why is your "belief system" a higher priority? Stay home. We have enough gender imbalance to deal with. We don't want to touch you, either.
93
This actually happened to me last month on a flight from Tel Aviv to Newark on a 777. I had reserved the window seat in advance, a woman had reserved the aisle seat, and a Hasidic man was assigned to the middle seat. He asked me to switch so he wouldn't have to sit next to the woman in the aisle. I simply said no because I wanted to lean against the window for some sleep on a 12+ hour flight. The woman, to my surprise, was willing to switch with someone else but no one could be found, so the Hasidic man just stood in the aisle until we were ready to taxi. When finally told he had to get into his seat, he leaned on me through most of the flight so as not to touch the tiny woman next to him. A long flight then seemed even longer. My feeling is "when in Rome, do like the Romans." In other words, behave like everyone else. No one has to conform to your worldview in a public place.
91
I wonder if there might be a sufficient demand for NY to Israel scheduled charter service to accommodate all of the needs and preferences of the ultra-Orthodox traveler? Religious organizations could have a substantial role in setting up such a service.
16
If you want to make sure this never happens to a flight you are on, just fly between sundown on any Friday and an hour after sundown on Sat night.
2
It seems like the Ultra-Orthodox person should drive and not fly. His religion is not the other passengers problem. He made the choice to use public transportation.
48
Still trying to understand why a person, religious or not, who refuses to take his seat, is allowed to remain on the plane. I thought that interfering with a flight was a criminal offense. Why aren't these men escorted off the flights if they are indeed delaying and disrupting travel?
114
If this is a problem for the ultra-orthodox then they need to withdraw from society completely and retreat to a refuge of some sort away from modern life.
7
The thing that strikes me is why are these men asking the women to move? Why aren't they moving themselves? And if they can't find someone who is willing to switch with them, they can move themselves right off the plane. People are entitled to practice their religious beliefs, but not at the expense of the rights of others.
105
it seems, unfortunately, that these men see it differently; that a man's wishes supersedes a woman. tragic
6
Imagine when people of other religions start also to do their personal religious oriented requests. Modern states are ruled only by the civil law.
28
That is the best statement of the case: we are governed by the civil law.
I read recently that some state magistrates would not perform a civil marriage of a same-sex couple, While I might sympathize if their objections were in the context of a religious ceremony, they are to follow the civil law and were rightly dismissed for refusing to do their statutory duties.
I read recently that some state magistrates would not perform a civil marriage of a same-sex couple, While I might sympathize if their objections were in the context of a religious ceremony, they are to follow the civil law and were rightly dismissed for refusing to do their statutory duties.
4
the conflict between religion and state is growing more pronounced, to the point that a genuinely violent schism within the US could emerge. the country can ruled by laws or by religious dogma.
2
The ultraconservatives of judaism need to ask for special seating when purchasing tickets.
10
I agree, but when you read your airline ticket and the many many conditions of purchase it always says they will do their best to accommodate you but they cannot guarantee anything (not even on time departure, let alone arrival).
1
What happens if they fly Southwest with no assigned seats and get a "C" boarding pass? Or are they going to ask for priority boarding? Darned if I would give up my aisle seat that I snagged by paying the exTra for Earl Bird check-in. I need an aisle seat for health reasons also. Should religion trump health? I think not...
How is what these haredi doing by requiring (forcing, really) the airlines to have women change their seats because the men's religious belief states that to touch a woman to whom they are not related will somehow render them (the man) impure any different from a Christian baker, florist, wedding planner refusing to offer up their services to a gay couple getting married?
In both examples, the haredi and the Christian are basing their objections on a religious belief (however insincerely held) and hiding behind 'Freedom of Religion'.
As a Jew, and a fairly observant one, I find these men's behavior deeply offensive. If they're having a problem being seated next to a woman, then they should be the one to move. The woman hasn't done anything wrong and doesn't subscribe to their outmoded beliefs.
In both examples, the haredi and the Christian are basing their objections on a religious belief (however insincerely held) and hiding behind 'Freedom of Religion'.
As a Jew, and a fairly observant one, I find these men's behavior deeply offensive. If they're having a problem being seated next to a woman, then they should be the one to move. The woman hasn't done anything wrong and doesn't subscribe to their outmoded beliefs.
56
Don't travel. Or buy two seats. Or perhaps wonder if the Almighty is all that impressed with pretensions of "faith." Over the years I've given up a good seat now and then so members of a first-time-flying (and looking it) family could sit together, and for other good reasons as well. I'm-going-to-be-tempted is not in any respect a good reason.
32
Easy answer is to buy two seats and leave one open. As to asking a person to move, it is ridiculous as if a religion granted a special privilege over others in a public space.
46
I'm sorry but the idea that men can't control their 'desires' or intentions is ridiculous. Grow up and deal with it. Too many religions infantilize men and create this air of taboo when it comes to women. It's beyond the pale in a contemporary society.
49
What ever happened to a secular society? We would all be better off if people just accepted that when it comes to religious practices all bets are off in the public sphere as opposed to the private sphere. Otherwise, make your own private arrangements for seating and everything else. Don't infringe on the rest of us.
57
Exactly. You see echoes of this in Indiana.
I think the real issue in this story is that the Orthodox men insisted that the woman move. If I were the man, I would have gone to the cabin attendant, explained my problem and asked if the staff person could help me exchange my seat for another where I would not sit nest to a woman. Demanding that the woman move to some other seat is the height of arrogance.
89
In the first example, the woman "eventually agreed to move". That makes it sound like she was requested to move to accommodate the gentleman. Why? Should it not be up to the boarding gentleman to request the airline find him a different seat, and not ask the woman to move from the seat she was already in?
77
Because things don't work that way in the ultra-orthodox community.
Gentleman is the polite word, but the wrong word in this context.
"Because things don't work that way in the ultra-orthodox community"
Um, he's on a PUBLIC PLANE, not is his Temple where the women are segregated, suck it up and sit in your assigned seat or find another way of getting to your destination.
Um, he's on a PUBLIC PLANE, not is his Temple where the women are segregated, suck it up and sit in your assigned seat or find another way of getting to your destination.
Hey, it's pretty simple. If someone doesn't want to be seated next to a woman, he should buy 2 seats. Or perhaps he can offer a subsidy to some deserving man to sit next to him. It also seems like a perfect opportunity for airlines to continue their revenue maximization policies by charging extra for male-proximate seats.
13
Sexism, not religion, is the issue here. Neither the Ultra-Orthodox men or the airline staff acknowledge that following one's religious beliefs means taking responsibility for doing what needs to be done to accommodate those beliefs, such as book early, buy adjacent seats, charter a flight, or start their own airline. Instead, the burden is placed solely on the women in these situations to allow their place to be usurped to pander to these men and their fear of contamination. As other commenters have noted, in situations where this kind of behavior is more accepted, the man will simply scream at a woman until she moves. Standing in the aisle blocking traffic and delaying departure is the Western equivalent of the men screaming at the women until they capitulate. In these men's view their place is wherever they want it to be, and a woman's place is also wherever they want her to be. As a society we need to differentiate between doing what one needs to do to follow a faith and imposing that faith on others. These men should minimally be put off the plane.
49
This is not as common as people think, even amongst the ultra orthodox. It does make a mockery of the religion these men are trying very hard to be faithful to. It takes a great level of discipline to live this extreme lifestyle. As an atheist, I wonder if that energy might be better spent on something useful to society.
20
If the men in this story are so worried about touching a woman on the plane and then becoming sexually aroused, why not cover themselves head to toe with thick garments, wear visors on either side of their head or better yet cover their eyes for the duration of the flight. Perhaps they could also take a sleeping pill. That way I am sure they will not become aroused and will also not inconvenience the other passengers on the flight. It is way past tiresome to force women to alter their lives to accommodate the male gaze. Men need to take responsibility for their own thoughts and feelings.
41
Certain rules are framed in the religions in the interest of protecting the woman from the evil eye of man. So, these rules are wrongly interpreted by all means. The main reason for any orthodox person feeling uncomfortable to sit by the side of a lady is not to unduly cause any harm either by unintentional touching or by some conversation which might lead to something else but this becomes a major irritating issue such as those mentioned in this article.
I have seen a number of Muslim women refusing to sit by the side of men mostly in buses and trains in India and requesting them to move to some other seats though not in Airplanes.
Generally the request for exchange of seats happens when the family members are allotted seats at different places and also due to the fact that certain diabetic patients won 't like to either occupy the middle or the window seats since they have to go to the restroom frequently, which might cause inconvenience to the other people. Also some people insist sitting on the window seat even though they are not allotted, which might cause annoyance to the fellow passengers.
I have seen a number of Muslim women refusing to sit by the side of men mostly in buses and trains in India and requesting them to move to some other seats though not in Airplanes.
Generally the request for exchange of seats happens when the family members are allotted seats at different places and also due to the fact that certain diabetic patients won 't like to either occupy the middle or the window seats since they have to go to the restroom frequently, which might cause inconvenience to the other people. Also some people insist sitting on the window seat even though they are not allotted, which might cause annoyance to the fellow passengers.
I will raise the thorny issue that members of some religions are having the most children. Should we allow cultures to dominate others through sheer fertility statistics? Are those cultures responsible enough to have the right number of children to prevent a population explosion going to die out now?
12
The airlines should agree on a policy, publish it clearly and enforce it.
Unless a male passenger buys two seats there can be no guarantee that he will not be seated next to a woman.
If a man refuses to sit next to a woman it is his responsibility to find another seat if one is available and he can find it quickly.
Anyone unnecessarily delaying departure by blocking an aisle should be removed from the plane banned from further flights if he repeats the offense.
While friendly accommodation is best if it can be arranged quickly and voluntarily, a woman should under no circumstances be deprived of her assigned seat because of someone else's religious demands.
The essential point is that we cannot force our religious beliefs on others outside the boundaries of our religious communities. My right to occupy a seat I have paid for trumps a man's right not to sit next to a woman.
Unless a male passenger buys two seats there can be no guarantee that he will not be seated next to a woman.
If a man refuses to sit next to a woman it is his responsibility to find another seat if one is available and he can find it quickly.
Anyone unnecessarily delaying departure by blocking an aisle should be removed from the plane banned from further flights if he repeats the offense.
While friendly accommodation is best if it can be arranged quickly and voluntarily, a woman should under no circumstances be deprived of her assigned seat because of someone else's religious demands.
The essential point is that we cannot force our religious beliefs on others outside the boundaries of our religious communities. My right to occupy a seat I have paid for trumps a man's right not to sit next to a woman.
47
I'll avoid any airline that makes an effort to accommodate such men beyond looking for an empty seat between two men. Good luck with that. Buy a row. That why people on the plane aren't delayed to accommodate your misogyny.
10
If a man won't sit next to a woman, he should buy two adjacent seats, always the middle and either the window or aisle. That way he can leave one empty. Piety has a price in a secular world.
64
I agree completely. He can always travel first class too - spaciousness and piety make good seatmates.
4
had a daughter at a major university with roommates who required special treatment - first one orthodox, who requested/demanded my daughter not disrobe in the room, not sleep unless fully dressed, etc etc.... second year roommate muslim, up at 4 am during annual religious observance where eating was only allowed then, also required my kid to be fully clothed at all times in the room ....Funny thing, each 'religious' observant young woman entertained men in the room in an intimate though clothed manner, much to my daughter's discomfort - But, if you complain, you're threatened with intolerance, discrimination, etc...
50
Such brief discomforts are called a learning experience. My freshman roommate was an avid Avon customer who got up very early every day and would spray herself liberally with the scent du jour. I would sneeze for 15 minutes every morning after she sprayed. Fortunately she switched dorms after Thanksgiving.
2
Really? Today, the scenty roommate would be asked to stop. For far more valid reasons (allergies) than religious peculiarities.
2
Yes, some of the "religious" people make that exception for themselves. I am very bothered by that. That means they are not religious, if you ask me.
4
If a person wants to be accommodated for religious reasons, they should contact the airline ahead of time and ask if they can get a seat next to a (in this case) male. It seems inconsiderate if individuals expect to be first accommodated upon boarding the plane.
55
Maybe theses conservative Jews should buy two adjacent seats. They can then travel in full satisfaction that a strange woman will not be a neighbor. Heaven forbid.
I sure wouldnt move to accommodate one of these people.
I sure wouldnt move to accommodate one of these people.
4
Wasn't a major pillar of the civil rights movement the fight against discrimination and segregation in public transportation? Do people who demand that they be allowed to pick-and-choose seat mates according to their private beliefs give any thought to the enormous step backward society would make if their personal desires for segregation were to be allowed.
Airlines should simply refuse to ask passengers to move on the basis of religious persuasion, no matter what the religion!
Airlines should simply refuse to ask passengers to move on the basis of religious persuasion, no matter what the religion!
113
I'm always puzzled by the religious principles that keep us apart all the time, like on an airplane seat, or together in open spaces. My ignorance and respect of these orthodox folks notwithstanding, I only have a simple question that I hope someone can answer:
Do these guys allow their female relatives, like daughters and wives, to travel by air? They can be as close to a male traveller as the men are to female travellers.
Do these guys allow their female relatives, like daughters and wives, to travel by air? They can be as close to a male traveller as the men are to female travellers.
10
Good question.
Read the story again and replace the word women with African American. Different perspective? Shouldn't be...
86
If you want to assure you won't sit next to a person of another gender, then buy the whole row of seats. Otherwise, sit down. -Rabbi Leana Moritt
155
And he needs a rabbi-mother/father figure to point this out to the guy? Juvenile, even with the hair!
Why should a woman have to "hope" to sit down? That is her RIGHT.
87
I wonder - if these men were muslim, would the article have the same "oh isn't that quaint" tone and if society would be as accepting.
84
I think the flight attendants should rearrange things so that these guys ended up sitting next to crying babies. That would teach them to complain.
126
How about sitting next to their own crying babies? On the first overseas flight I took there was a group of Orthodox families. Each seemed to be made up of six kids under four years of age (or vice versa), all of whom shrieked all the way from JFK to Paris. The men stood in the aisle talking among themselves and completely ignoring the women, who were left to deal with the wriggling, howling mass of kids, with no help whatsoever. Nobody on that flight got a wink of sleep. I have never seen anything so self-centered.
6
They have to be male babies held by men.
2
but only male babies?
5
So when some KKK sympathizer gets on a plane and refuses to sit next to anyone of color, the entire plane must make accommodations for that hatred and bigotry? What about all those "nice Christians" who don't like gays?
I want the airplane I fly on to have done everything possible to ensure that no one got onboard with a gun, a bomb, a dagger/machete, poison gas, dangerous chemicals, or any explosive device. And I'd really prefer a pilot who is not mentally ill but, naturally, there are no guarantees in life.
You don't want to sit next to a woman? Then get off the plane and take another one if there is no seat to which YOU, the offended man, wants to sit. Leave the rest of us to get to our destination free from your religious fear, arrogance, and melodrama.
I want the airplane I fly on to have done everything possible to ensure that no one got onboard with a gun, a bomb, a dagger/machete, poison gas, dangerous chemicals, or any explosive device. And I'd really prefer a pilot who is not mentally ill but, naturally, there are no guarantees in life.
You don't want to sit next to a woman? Then get off the plane and take another one if there is no seat to which YOU, the offended man, wants to sit. Leave the rest of us to get to our destination free from your religious fear, arrogance, and melodrama.
190
I'm amazed at all the readers who are amazed that this article garnered so many comments. Amazed that some of those readers blamed bias, anti-antisemitism, for the "tone" of the comments!
A few days ago a person who owns a pizzeria was asked if they would serve a gay wedding, hypothetically, this person answered no. At that point the pizzeria and its owner were attacked, attacked because of what they said not what they did or didn't do. That show of intolerance is absolutely disgusting.
All religious exemptions or excuses should be null and void. I don't care if your religion doesn't permit something, if it's not illegal shut up and sit down.
A few days ago a person who owns a pizzeria was asked if they would serve a gay wedding, hypothetically, this person answered no. At that point the pizzeria and its owner were attacked, attacked because of what they said not what they did or didn't do. That show of intolerance is absolutely disgusting.
All religious exemptions or excuses should be null and void. I don't care if your religion doesn't permit something, if it's not illegal shut up and sit down.
72
I don't think it's anti-semitism.
Oy. It's hard (and expensive) enough getting a decent seat on a flight. I'm not moving for anyone else's comfort unless it's to an equivalent or better seat, in which case I'll be happy to. Anyone disrupting departure should be removed from the plane. Part of this is the airlines' fault, cramming in seats where, at least in coach, it's impossible not to have some kind of contact with your seatmates. Flying private, or in biz or first class, is a better option if reduced contact is important to the flyer. A coach ticket doesn't get you a cocoon. Bottom line--the airlines offer different products for different prices, and you have your pick (with no guarantee) at booking.
60
This is what happens - every time - when ANY religion preference is permitted to enter the public sphere. Catholic, Jew, Muslim, whatever - if you need a special accommodation in the public sphere, it is your responsibility to see to it, beforehand. No exceptions. If, as a person of faith, you find something about the pubic sphere that violates your beliefs, isn't that problem.
I don't see anything wrong with someone voluntarily giving up a seat, but to inconvenience others or demand accommodation at the cost of inconveniencing others, no way!
Yes, multicultural societies need to go a long way to respecting difference; it's a constant balancing act - yet there is a fine line between religion and the public space that MUST be preserved.
I don't see anything wrong with someone voluntarily giving up a seat, but to inconvenience others or demand accommodation at the cost of inconveniencing others, no way!
Yes, multicultural societies need to go a long way to respecting difference; it's a constant balancing act - yet there is a fine line between religion and the public space that MUST be preserved.
61
Then let them fly El Al or not fly at all! I wouldn't want to sit next to one of them but I accept that when I fly there will be things and persons who annoy me. I adjust and so should they. PS I'm Jewish!
44
Ps But why is that relevant and who cares? That's the whole point of the argument isn't is? We sit where we have been assigned seats, regardless of who or what we are. Oy!
Does El Al have separate seating for men?
What could be more ridiculous than an ultra-orthodox man who finds it repugnant to sit next to his mother, his sister, or his aunt? Trying to apply ancient biblical ignorance to modern technology is a losing proposition and one would have thought that Jews, who are usually quite bright, would not be still living with outmoded ideas that try to return us all to the dark ages.
31
Your religion won't get me up out of my seat. Your child might, your size might, even your first flight with a desire for the window seat might get me to move. But expecting me to move to adapt to your religion is beyond the boundaries that one's religion is allowed to go. For comparison's sake, refusing to sit near someone, in my family and in my religion, would be seen as outstandingly unacceptable behavior and would have landed me in buckets of trouble. Holding up an airplane doing just that? Unthinable.
96
This is all out of hand, what kind of religion teaches you not to have consideration to your fellow. How many flights have people missed because of
this behaviour and how many people have been inconvenienced because of this.
The airlines are catering to the masses not the minority either enter the modern
world or stay home.
this behaviour and how many people have been inconvenienced because of this.
The airlines are catering to the masses not the minority either enter the modern
world or stay home.
42
Secular societies have laws that protect us from our own wretchedness, or the wretchedness of others.
I have no doubt that many of my fellow readers, in their secret hearts of hearts, would like to be able to demand seating with or not with persons according to their own criteria of fitness, or potential to defile or disgust, etc. etc. Orthodox Brahmin Hindus would prefer not to be seated next to people they suspect of being of lower or no caste; whites preferring to sit only with whites, blacks only with blacks; the abstemious far from the imbibers.
We are forced to treat people as equals, now, by law (in most cases). It is religion that often demands its adherents do the exact opposite, and that is why a secular society is distasteful to them.
Why are some of my fellow Jews trying to insinuate here--or outright state--that there's some invidious anti-Jewish prejudice being exposed by the vigorous response to this story? The Ultra-Orthodox man who is the subject of this story was behaving obnoxiously and hatefully, and his interpretation of his religion is not something that should be accommodated by a healthy society.
I have no doubt that many of my fellow readers, in their secret hearts of hearts, would like to be able to demand seating with or not with persons according to their own criteria of fitness, or potential to defile or disgust, etc. etc. Orthodox Brahmin Hindus would prefer not to be seated next to people they suspect of being of lower or no caste; whites preferring to sit only with whites, blacks only with blacks; the abstemious far from the imbibers.
We are forced to treat people as equals, now, by law (in most cases). It is religion that often demands its adherents do the exact opposite, and that is why a secular society is distasteful to them.
Why are some of my fellow Jews trying to insinuate here--or outright state--that there's some invidious anti-Jewish prejudice being exposed by the vigorous response to this story? The Ultra-Orthodox man who is the subject of this story was behaving obnoxiously and hatefully, and his interpretation of his religion is not something that should be accommodated by a healthy society.
108
I travel quite a bit. Frankly, I don't give a rat's hind end who I sit next to as long as they stay in their own seat and don't harass me. I go out of my way to be courteous and helpful (because I sit on the aisle I will take your trash, glass, whatever, to hand to the flight attendant. I will get up without complaining if you need to go to the loo or stretch your legs) but I'm not there to entertain you or your kids. I want to relax, read, sleep, whatever. If sitting next to an older (but not yet elderly) fat, white pagan woman is a problem for you....that's YOUR problem....don't try to make it mine because I won't buy into it.....
45
Agree as long as they don't weigh 300 pounds and flow into my seat and don't smell bad.
2
This particular fellow Jew is not trying to insinuate or state that this is anti-Jewish prejudice - while some people posting may be expressing prejudice, the incident is not about prejudice. I agree with those who state that if one doesn't want to sit next to someone for any reason, they should purchase all the seats in a row.
It doesn't matter if it's a Jew or Muslim male who doesn't want to sit next to a woman (or each other), a racist who doesn't want to sit next to someone of a different race or a musician who travels with their expensive musical instrument.
An airplane is a place of public accommodation. If you can't live with the rules and laws of public accommodation, then either buy the whole row or charter a private flight. If you can't live with that, then take a boat and get your own room.
I have absolutely no sympathy for anyone of any religion who tries to impose their will on the public sphere.
It doesn't matter if it's a Jew or Muslim male who doesn't want to sit next to a woman (or each other), a racist who doesn't want to sit next to someone of a different race or a musician who travels with their expensive musical instrument.
An airplane is a place of public accommodation. If you can't live with the rules and laws of public accommodation, then either buy the whole row or charter a private flight. If you can't live with that, then take a boat and get your own room.
I have absolutely no sympathy for anyone of any religion who tries to impose their will on the public sphere.
7
As a Jewish woman, I am offended by the behavior of these men. Am I to behave like an inferior, unclean being to satisfy the extreme beliefs of another traveler? If they're so worried, buy two seats and be done with the problem. When I was an administrator at a large university, I once had a peculiar week. It happened soon after 9/11 and I was asked to organize a symposium on religious and cultural understanding. One of the participants was an international student who was a religious Muslim. After the symposium I thanked him and offered to shake his hand. He refused, saying his religion prohibited him from touching any woman not his wife. The very next day, one of my former students, who had become an Orthodox Jew, came to see me. I offered my hand to shake his and he too refused, saying he can touch no other woman but his wife. Since he and I had known each other well, I told him that what he had just done happened to me only once before and just a day before, with a Muslim man. He had no response but I can tell you those incidents depressed me.
136
For what its worth, after giving a lecture at the Sultan Qaboos College of Medicine in Muscat, the Sultanate of Oman, I made the mistake of offering to shake the hand of a female professor of Medicine, who had studied in the West. She withdrew her hand and said she could not do that. I sheepishly realized my mistake and have never again tried to shake the hand of a Muslim woman. This is not a gender matter, but the sorry state of affairs, when faith trumps reason and basic humanity.
4
VKJG, that is what happens when religion is taken so seriously, that it begins to poison everything it touches.
3
I once had a job interview at a firm where one of the people I was interviewing with belonged to some sect of judaism that did not permit touching women. I was told before my interview that the proper form of greeting in this case would be for me to do "a small bow." (It has occurred to me this might be a good way to cut down one's exposure to colds, flu & the like -- just say your religion does not permit touching and bow!) In another case, once I was working there, the father of of one of the secretaries died and everyone went to the wake. This same person was not there and I was told the reason was that his sect of judaism did not permit being in the same room with a dead body.
1
I find this attitude an insult to all women, just as I see Muslim restrictions against women as universally insulting.
116
@DL 1234
Holding a plane up is like hijacking it and all its passengers--choosing public transportation means going with the laws of the public. If sitting near women somehow is offensive or causes one to lose control and commit adultery, then private jets are for hire.
Truly, if you are on a plane--sit down and buckle it up
Holding a plane up is like hijacking it and all its passengers--choosing public transportation means going with the laws of the public. If sitting near women somehow is offensive or causes one to lose control and commit adultery, then private jets are for hire.
Truly, if you are on a plane--sit down and buckle it up
36
This seating mandate is not a hard and fast commandment, as Rabbi Feinstein's ruling indicates. The article also notes that what it really has become is a litmus test to see who is more ultra-religious than the next guy - a not-uncommon issue of hubris and moral superiority I encountered during my yeshiva days as well. At the core of this issue is the idea of protecting against having lewd and lascivious thoughts towards the completely innocent fellow female traveler in the next seat. So in my view, it's up to the intrepid Hasidic traveler to *control himself* if he plans to share a public space interacting with some of the other 7 billion souls he shares this planet with rather than being ridiculously disruptive to the lives of hundreds of others just to prove a non-mandated form of selfish piety. My take away from my Yeshiva years is that God doesn't judge whether a guy sits next to a woman who is not his wife. What is important is that the person be a decent soul and respectful to others in life.
69
The danger here is that in the quest to demonstrate ones moral superiority over other fanatics there is no boundry that can't be crossed. Isn't this moral superiority the same justification used by isis (or whatever it is called today).
2
Excuse me, but are we even having this conversation in 2015? It's beyond me that any rational, decent human being would presume to think that he had the right to even raise the issue of who sits next to him on a public conveyance. Seriously? People obviously have the right to believe whatever they want (women are temptresses, gays are an abomination, blacks are subhuman, etc.) but they absolutely do not have the right in any kind of civilized society to bring those beliefs into the public sphere and expect to have their antediluvian, exclusionary beliefs accommodated. What is tolerated in the name of "respecting religion" is truly the abomination!
Can anyone seriously imagine an airline even entertaining the request of a bigot not to be seated next to a black person? The same should apply to accommodating extreme religious beliefs. The ultra orthodox Jewish male should either buy two seats upfront and leave the one next to him empty, rent a private jet, take his chances on seat mates, or not fly. And I am NOT in any way anti-Semitic. The same for bizarre demands from other extreme religious groups. No how, no way. Respect the notion that all manner of fellow humans might inhabit your environs in the public sphere, or don't enter that sphere at all!
Can anyone seriously imagine an airline even entertaining the request of a bigot not to be seated next to a black person? The same should apply to accommodating extreme religious beliefs. The ultra orthodox Jewish male should either buy two seats upfront and leave the one next to him empty, rent a private jet, take his chances on seat mates, or not fly. And I am NOT in any way anti-Semitic. The same for bizarre demands from other extreme religious groups. No how, no way. Respect the notion that all manner of fellow humans might inhabit your environs in the public sphere, or don't enter that sphere at all!
68
I hope these men whose self control (religiously motivated or otherwise) is apparently so fragile that they are reduced to throwing tantrums on aircraft to avoid a female non-spouse seat-mate realize that I have even less desire to be next to them than they to me. Religious tolerance has its limits and these men are way past the limits. No airline should tolerate this behavior.
79
It is one thing to limit government's direct action or requirements which without a clear compelling public benefit, infringe on an individual's religious or spiritual conscience. However, when the religious voluntarily choose to enter the public sphere their religious practices must be balanced against an equivalent respect that another party is not under no obligation to accede or otherwise accommodate religious practice or preference. Religious conscience, under American jurisprudence, is not subject to validation nor can one religious practice be given preference over another. Public accommodation would be virtually impossible to effect if all religious preferences and practices are allowed.
When a ultra religious man books passage on a public commercial conveyance they have abrogated any expectation of accommodation of their idiosyncratic personal religious preferences. I would have informed the passenger their contract did not require the airline or other passengers to reposition themselves and he had the choice of taking the seat or deplaning the aircraft immediately.
When a ultra religious man books passage on a public commercial conveyance they have abrogated any expectation of accommodation of their idiosyncratic personal religious preferences. I would have informed the passenger their contract did not require the airline or other passengers to reposition themselves and he had the choice of taking the seat or deplaning the aircraft immediately.
66
As a Jew, it seems to me that if Ultra 0rthodox Jews want everyone else to acquiesce to their religious views, they should petition the airlines to provide religious exclusion seats at a premium price so that they can pay for the right to impose their views on other passengers and the airlines. And perhaps they should buy two seats so that no one sits next to them.
I was always disturbed by the Orthodox exclusion of women from areas occupied by men even in synagogues, and I see very little reason why everyone else should kowtow to these anachronistic views.
I was always disturbed by the Orthodox exclusion of women from areas occupied by men even in synagogues, and I see very little reason why everyone else should kowtow to these anachronistic views.
97
There are lots of reasons for not wanting to sit in a certain seat on a plane. Makes me claustrophobic to sit in the middle. The person next takes up too much of my space. I don't want to sit next to a child. I don't want long conversations. But guess what- nobody really cares. Best you can do is ask politely and maybe someone will oblige.
Most people renting a small space in a flying metal tube, realize there are likely to be inconveniences. Demanding that the world rearrange itself for your whims is likely to not be a successful strategy.
Most people renting a small space in a flying metal tube, realize there are likely to be inconveniences. Demanding that the world rearrange itself for your whims is likely to not be a successful strategy.
36
If I stood in the aisle refusing to be seated for 15-20 minutes as the person on Andrew Roffe's flight did, I would certainly have been thrown off the plane and possibly detained as a result. I believe in religious freedom, but not to the extent of inflicting discomfort or inconvenience - which delays in boarding assuredly do - on others. If a person does not wish to be seated next to a woman, they should make their reservations via telephone in advance where the ticket agent can select a seat next to someone who is hopefully a man based on the name. If that costs more in time and money, then that is the cost of practicing one's religion. It is not right to wait to see who has the adjoining seat and then demand a change. That is extremely rude. If I was asked to change seats, there would have to be an upgrade involved for me to agree as I always select my preferred seat well in advance.
63
Simple solution. Sit in an aisle or window seat, purchase seat next to yours, and either leave it vacant or invite a travel mate that meets your travel seating specification.
Alternatively, there is a business opportunity for airlines to sell "ultra-Orthodox" class seating, with certain rows reserved for Orthodox men, and other rows reserved for Orthodox women and children.
Alternatively, there is a business opportunity for airlines to sell "ultra-Orthodox" class seating, with certain rows reserved for Orthodox men, and other rows reserved for Orthodox women and children.
21
Well perhaps the 1st part of your simple solution might be something to consider, but surely you jest with the second. "Business opportunity for airlines" to sell "class seating?" Really? Didn't we address that situation back in the 50s? Seems to me there was something about certain "classes" having to sit in certain sections on certain busses.
10
No, buying a seat in that section would be optional. Blacks did not have the option of riding the back of the bus. It was mandatory. Offering the option would mean that such seating concerns would no longer be relevant for those whose religion causes them to not want to sit next to people of the opposite gender.
Of course, it would only be on the routes where there may be a market for such an option. NY to Tel Aviv, for example.
Of course, it would only be on the routes where there may be a market for such an option. NY to Tel Aviv, for example.
"Separate but equal". is that the idea? Sorry, That was OK back in 1898 (Plessy v. Ferguson) but the Court said it wasn't in 1952 (Brown v. Board of Education). Segregation is out. Whether by race or religion. Bigotry is bigotry.
1
There are many circumstances on airplanes for which I would gladly change seats. An irrational request based on one's religious beliefs is not one of them.
41
The religious element to this discussion is beyond meaningless to me, but somehow I do foresee new airline fees--probably couched as taxes--to offset the cost of accommodating passengers' religious beliefs.
I'd bet all the frequent flier miles I've accumulated that expire this year.
I'd bet all the frequent flier miles I've accumulated that expire this year.
4
I purposely book my flights months ahead of time, which I realize that people cannot always do, because I cannot sit next to the window due to sun exposure and absolutely refuse to sit in a middle seat. If someone wants to change with me and I am able to get another aisle seat I will accommodate them but otherwise I see no need to explain myself.
18
My husband now suffers disabilities that make air travel nearly impossible. We are fortunate that if we never set foot on an airplane again, we will be neither inconvenienced nor unhappy.
When we have traveled on a commercial plane, we have taken all reasonable steps to ease not just our experience but that of fellow travelers. We have received the kindness of strangers. We have not demanded it. I don't consider religion a disability. But . . . if ones religious beliefs make travel uncomfortable, foresight is essential. My husband I carefully plan each step of the way and would not intentionally cause delay to fellow passengers in their journeys by refusing to be seated.
For the most part, I don't find these comments unreasonable. I'm a woman of a certain age who remembers how the back of the bus looked and how it is to be passed over or kept out merely because one is woman. Giving up the place I have carefully chosen just because I am woman, regardless of the beliefs of the one who asks--or demands--is not something I would probably be willing to do.
When we have traveled on a commercial plane, we have taken all reasonable steps to ease not just our experience but that of fellow travelers. We have received the kindness of strangers. We have not demanded it. I don't consider religion a disability. But . . . if ones religious beliefs make travel uncomfortable, foresight is essential. My husband I carefully plan each step of the way and would not intentionally cause delay to fellow passengers in their journeys by refusing to be seated.
For the most part, I don't find these comments unreasonable. I'm a woman of a certain age who remembers how the back of the bus looked and how it is to be passed over or kept out merely because one is woman. Giving up the place I have carefully chosen just because I am woman, regardless of the beliefs of the one who asks--or demands--is not something I would probably be willing to do.
58
As a reform Jew, I am amazed and saddened to see that in the short time that this article has been online, it has garnered nearly 2,000 comments.
Regarding the article, are many of these individuals' actions offensive if they put their own preferences ahead of others'? (Sure) Is it outrageous that these men presume, or demand, that their fellow passengers will simply accede to their requests to change seats, no matter how rudely they ask. (You bet) And to the common American or typical non-Jew, can ultra-orthodox Jewish men appear oddly (and intentionally) out-of-step with modern society? (100%)
But I cannot recall when an NYT article was so widely commented upon so quickly. I'd like to think that my fellow readers are simply super-passionate about air travel and the rights of individuals, but I'm resigned to believe that many of these comments are the product of bias.
Regarding the article, are many of these individuals' actions offensive if they put their own preferences ahead of others'? (Sure) Is it outrageous that these men presume, or demand, that their fellow passengers will simply accede to their requests to change seats, no matter how rudely they ask. (You bet) And to the common American or typical non-Jew, can ultra-orthodox Jewish men appear oddly (and intentionally) out-of-step with modern society? (100%)
But I cannot recall when an NYT article was so widely commented upon so quickly. I'd like to think that my fellow readers are simply super-passionate about air travel and the rights of individuals, but I'm resigned to believe that many of these comments are the product of bias.
24
I think you're missing the larger picture: rather than reflecting antisemitism, the reaction here to this article is part of a growing backlash against the demands made by religious fundamentalists of all sorts that society accommodate their personal belief systems, even it means that others must be burdened to do so. This is no different than the rather vehement reaction to the Indiana and Arkansas "religious liberty" bills. Personally, I find the refusal to accommodate the demands of Haredi travelers to be a very healthy thing. It's time that people push back on these kinds of demands, from whatever quarter they arise.
96
I think it is a response more to the current attempts in our legislatures to make it easier for people who have religious requirements for everyone else at the expense of civil rights for all Americans. The cake-baker squabble is a similar issue and had way more comments. It is a basic separation of religion and state issue if people are asking other citizens to go elsewhere for cakes because they are gay or elsewhere because they are female to make "believers" comfortable.
55
I would suggest to you that many of these comments are the product of bias only in that many women are tired of being on the receiving end of it.
The people who would expect women to switch seats for them are, of course, outliers. The vast majority of Jewish people, orthodox or otherwise, would never have done such a thing. But when the airlines bend over backwards to accommodate gender bias, whether cloaked in religious extremism or not, that becomes much more concerning.
The people who would expect women to switch seats for them are, of course, outliers. The vast majority of Jewish people, orthodox or otherwise, would never have done such a thing. But when the airlines bend over backwards to accommodate gender bias, whether cloaked in religious extremism or not, that becomes much more concerning.
82
If they want to select seats when they book tickets that's OK, just as they can order Kosher meals. Or they can book a second seat beside them to stay empty.
But demanding a change when boarding is not. If you don't like the seat you have, and no others are readily available, then take another flight. Your ticket promises transportation, not companionship.
But demanding a change when boarding is not. If you don't like the seat you have, and no others are readily available, then take another flight. Your ticket promises transportation, not companionship.
51
My husband (Jewish), was once asked by an Orthodox Jew if he would trade seats with him for $100.00, so that the Orthodox man did not have to sit next to a woman. He was willing to have my husband do so, instead. My husband refused.
28
He refused because he didn't like the idea of the Orthodox Jew thinking he was better than your husband or because you husband is also Orthodox Jewish?
3
If the Orthodox Jew knew, or even suspected, that your husband was Jewish, it was completely unethical to bribe him, to do exactly what he would not do: sit next to a woman. In fact, he was obliged to ask if your husband was Jewish, as he could not make him into some kind of "Shabbos Goy." This would be hypocrisy.
17
To clarify my point at the end though: my response might vary: if a parent in an ordinary family said "little scooter here never saw the NYC skyline from an inbound laguardia flight before," I'd probably just say of course and decline the payment. If he works for, say, Bain capital, the checkbook comes out. Offered 100$ but the Orthodox passenger I'd probably just accommodate him and turn down the payment, except being Orthodox my self it wouldn't get that far.
1
Yikes! What is religion? It seems like anyone can claim anything he likes, and then it's societies job to accommodate him.
44
this is not "religion" It is custom... nowhere in our bible is sitting next to a woman prohibited.... but as in all "religions" we get men who make up there own rules and then teach them to other men who follow them "religiously"
5
The huge (1948 +) number and the vituperative, often self-righteous nature of the comments indicate that there is something more going on here than meets the eye, something more than proportional responses to a rare phenomenon.
I put this somewhat in the category of parents who refuse on non-medical grounds to get measles shots for their kids, and then think they have a right to take those kids out in public, where their choice could adversely affect others. There simply is no right to impinge on others because of your religious beliefs or personal preferences.
However I, for one, tend not to mind moving to accommodate another individual's comfort level, whether it's an old person, a family, a very large person, or a religious preference. However, that is merely my choice, and no one should be pressured to do so.
Civility: yes. We need much more of it.
Entitlement and coercion: no. We need much less of it.
I put this somewhat in the category of parents who refuse on non-medical grounds to get measles shots for their kids, and then think they have a right to take those kids out in public, where their choice could adversely affect others. There simply is no right to impinge on others because of your religious beliefs or personal preferences.
However I, for one, tend not to mind moving to accommodate another individual's comfort level, whether it's an old person, a family, a very large person, or a religious preference. However, that is merely my choice, and no one should be pressured to do so.
Civility: yes. We need much more of it.
Entitlement and coercion: no. We need much less of it.
40
I have moved on a number of occasions so that children might be able to sit with their parents, but I would have a much harder time with this request. I think on the contrary, I would engage the man in conversation so he can realize that I have an organ in the head that also works.
33
I, too, have changed seats to allow couples to stay together, children to sit near their parents, and on one first class flight, a man with a speech disability to sit near his companion. But no way on earth would I move to accommodate religiously-motivated sexism, bigotry, or any other form of intolerance. I would be sorely tempted to throw the requester off the plane myself.
24
"I put this somewhat in the category of parents who refuse on non-medical grounds to get measles shots for their kids, and then think they have a right to take those kids out in public,"
I would not put it in that category for the simple reason that the numbers non inoculation people are large and the phenomenon well documented and has an impact on many peoples lives- newsworthiness. This on other hand is a very small not widely documented phenomenon which in my experience (which is as valid as the rest of the hearsay here) usually manifests itself as an Hasidic man looking downward while he asks a stewardess if she can ask someone to switch seats, and very very rarely as making a fuss and holding up a plane.
You don't need to deep a knowledge of history to understand the "the vituperative, often self-righteous nature of the comments " that more and more people are realizing. "Others" make people nervous and defensive. Hasidim in their dark dress and funny mannerisms are the ultimate "Other."
I would not put it in that category for the simple reason that the numbers non inoculation people are large and the phenomenon well documented and has an impact on many peoples lives- newsworthiness. This on other hand is a very small not widely documented phenomenon which in my experience (which is as valid as the rest of the hearsay here) usually manifests itself as an Hasidic man looking downward while he asks a stewardess if she can ask someone to switch seats, and very very rarely as making a fuss and holding up a plane.
You don't need to deep a knowledge of history to understand the "the vituperative, often self-righteous nature of the comments " that more and more people are realizing. "Others" make people nervous and defensive. Hasidim in their dark dress and funny mannerisms are the ultimate "Other."
2
It seems like a way to maintain their matrimonial purity, which is not bad in itself. However, if they are not allowed to sit close to a non-wife, it's not about disliking or offending her, it is up to them to find another seat. They should refrain from asking other people change their seats. At the same time, what is the price of being nice and give the seat to a Hasidic in distress? We are supposed to help each other, right?
4
Not if a woman's mere presence is the cause of the distress.
2
No. Where's the helping from this guy? The calling in advance, the arrangement to be seated next to a man, to buy an extra seat?
3
When you adhere to extremist and anti-social beliefs you have to be prepared to encounter people who don't share those beliefs and who don't understand why they have to be the ones who give in. Whether they're Jewish, Muslim, or Flat-Earthers, they need to be realistic about how the rest of the world lives.
74
Outrageous! As a Jewish American, I participate fully in American society and do not interact with people on the basis of their faith. If the ultra-religious of any faith wish to take part in American life, they might learn to do so on the terms of our secular society. We are guaranteed the right to worship as we please or not to worship at all, but this right does not include the right to interfere with our fellow citizens enjoyment of the benefits of that citizenship. Perhaps a super observant person could buy an entire row of seats to assure not being subject to the overpowering temptation of sitting next to one who might be sexually attractive. This last sentence is deliberately gender neutral to allow for the possible gay ultra-observant passenger.
Daniel E. Harris
Brunswick, Maine
Daniel E. Harris
Brunswick, Maine
75
Well put! One thing though: there may not be an openly gay ultra-Orthodox passenger, it is a thing frowned upon by their communities, one might say even actively combated. On their own transportation devices, as well as during worship they sit segregated by gender, so that women are in essence invisible. I grew up in an Orthodox community, I know. There are other religions that do that too. Why a woman (or a man) would want to do that is an entirely different discussion. Lastly, if they sit on mixed gender subway cars or other public transportation next to or close to women, what's the big deal about an airline flight? It's the same thing, no? If they can't accept reality, then perhaps blinders or a bubble should be considered. Prototypes, anyone?
7
It attracted 250 comments. I looked it up
If I boarded a plane and declared that I would not sit next to a Hasidic Jew, I'd rightly be called a bigot and be told to either sit down or disembark. This case is no different.
Kudos to those women (and men) who stand up for their civil rights against bigotry of any sort.
Kudos to those women (and men) who stand up for their civil rights against bigotry of any sort.
194
Civil rights violations? Folks need to get off their high horses. I've flown hundreds of times and have never been asked to give up my seat to accomodate a modesty-seeking practitioner of any religion, and have never seen the same happening to anyone else. What a monumental problem we are dealing with. Certainly worthy of NYT front page coverage.
The separation from women issue did not stop religious men on a flight to Israel from constantly hitting my wife in the head with tallises and coats when the men were changing in the aisle before prayer. She says that only one apologized and figures that the others didn't want to acknowledge that their garment touched a woman.
79
During the two years I was commuting between New York and Paris, usually on a TWA flight that went on to Tel Aviv, I witnessed many such disruptions. A man sitting next to me who yelled at the flight attendant because she served the passengers small cups of mixed nuts, meaning she might have touched them and made them unclean, a mother with five children who carefully inspected the kosher meal that they had ordered and declared, "This is not Kosher!" then demanding that real Kosher food be found and served, not an easy task at 30,000 feet over the Atlantic, and, yes, more than one orthodox man who refused to be seated next to a woman. Having been raised Pentecostal, with its own set of bizarre rules, I learned early on to detest the practice of slavish obedience to meaningless religious prohibitions, especially when it is done with disregard to the common well-being.
205
On most airlines I believe it is possible to select seats at the time of making the reservation. It may also be possible to specify a gender requirement for other seats in that row.
3
Great! Does that mean it's also possible to specify a race, ethnicity, sexual orientation, religion, age, weight, height and disability/ability requirement, too?
How about specifying lack of rudeness, bigotry, narcissism & general obnoxiousness in our fellow passengers while we're at it?
Next time, I want to fly on a plane containing other passengers who are all at least 21 years old, no more than 70 years old, no more than 5'11" & with an inseam of no more than 34" (so they won't dig their knees into the back of my seat), no more than 180 lbs, have no fear of flying or airsickness issues, aren't terrorists, & who sign a contract in advance in which they agree, with fines to enforce it, not to: (1) attempt small talk with me, (2) spill any food or drink on me, (3) hog the shared armrest, (4) take more than their fair share of the overhead baggage compartment, (5) talk on their cell phones, play video games or listen to music in such a way that sound bleeds from their ear phones, (6) try to stop me from reclining my seat back (7) fall asleep on me, lean against me to look out the window or otherwise invade my woefully inadequate space, (8) get drunk/do drugs, (9) cause delay/make a fuss with the flight attendant or crew--& pls give my legal team 3 months to make sure we cover all other possible irritants.
In fact, I want a plane that's empty except for the flight crew. Get me my own private Lear jet, please. Now I'm happy.
How about specifying lack of rudeness, bigotry, narcissism & general obnoxiousness in our fellow passengers while we're at it?
Next time, I want to fly on a plane containing other passengers who are all at least 21 years old, no more than 70 years old, no more than 5'11" & with an inseam of no more than 34" (so they won't dig their knees into the back of my seat), no more than 180 lbs, have no fear of flying or airsickness issues, aren't terrorists, & who sign a contract in advance in which they agree, with fines to enforce it, not to: (1) attempt small talk with me, (2) spill any food or drink on me, (3) hog the shared armrest, (4) take more than their fair share of the overhead baggage compartment, (5) talk on their cell phones, play video games or listen to music in such a way that sound bleeds from their ear phones, (6) try to stop me from reclining my seat back (7) fall asleep on me, lean against me to look out the window or otherwise invade my woefully inadequate space, (8) get drunk/do drugs, (9) cause delay/make a fuss with the flight attendant or crew--& pls give my legal team 3 months to make sure we cover all other possible irritants.
In fact, I want a plane that's empty except for the flight crew. Get me my own private Lear jet, please. Now I'm happy.
40
Brilliant. Let's specify a race requirement too, and maybe a circumcision and menstrual requirement, and whether your seat mates were married in church or court and whether they've eaten pork or beef or tofu or shellfish, or mixed dairy with their meat, or worn mixed cloth, in the past 10 years. Jeesus H. Murphy, that's all we need.
19
Really? What about if I don't want to sit beside black people? Should it be possible to specify my requirements for the acceptable ethnicities of the people in my row?
8
I do not agree for a moment with this practice or behavior, but what I find amazing is that there have been 1941 comments (an ominous numeral) about this article and all have them have been negative. This wasn't an op-ed piece, it was a news article. Was it just meant to inflame sentiments? We don't need more anti-Semitism.
9
@nystrokedoc: We don't need arrogant,disrespectful people who inspire anti-Semitism where it didn't exist before their rude behavior inflamed and offended reasonable people.
21
Hmm, so you consider the article inflamatory. Perhaps many of the commentators consider the behavior described in the article inflammatory.
47
Pointing out boorish behavior isn't anti-anything except bad manners.
39
Though I don't disagree - as I said misbehaving is wrong - methinks you'd be a tough customer to sit next to on any flight and I'd be inclined to request a seat change myself.
9
Religion is a lifestyle choice. If someone's lifestyle choice prohibits them from living in the modern world, they should stay home and leave us alone.
113
If women, in sufficient numbers through consciousness raising or political indoctrination, got it into their heads that any man sitting next to them was a potential predator, molester or rapist and that airlines must, by refusing a man access to any adjoining seat, respect a woman's right to travel in sexual peace, safety and security then we can be sure that all women would get what they want. But a man demanding the same for religious reasons? No chance.
10
First, this is a false equivalency. Any such request (ridiculous as it would be) made by women would be based on the evidence of past crimes committed by the target of the policy. (The problem with such a request would lie in the fact that it would be designed to prevent *future* crime, which the U.S. constitution and its common law antecedents have always viewed as a breach of civil liberties and human rights.) The women in the Fundamentalist-Won't-Sit-Next-To-Them-on-the-Plane scenario is NOT based on even an allegation of past bad behavior (let alone crimes) by the women, just on the religious belief that they might be menstruating, hence "unclean," or would sexually "tempt" the men.
Second, I highly doubt that in the unlikely situation that women made such a request the airlines would consider it for even half a second. To the contrary, I'm sure it would be met with the kind of male outrage and prolonged hue and cry that followed XM radio's suspension of Opie and Anthony for engaging in on-air rape jokes about Condoleeza Rice and Laura Bush.
Second, I highly doubt that in the unlikely situation that women made such a request the airlines would consider it for even half a second. To the contrary, I'm sure it would be met with the kind of male outrage and prolonged hue and cry that followed XM radio's suspension of Opie and Anthony for engaging in on-air rape jokes about Condoleeza Rice and Laura Bush.
6
Living in our times invariably means that you have to put up with a certain level of discomfort at times. If the person (man, woman, child or any gender) next to me would attempt to infringe on my personal space in any way, I'd take action. Let's not politicize a religious issue, please.
3
Upon what do you base this hypothetical? As far as we know, there is not one instance of a woman hijacking a plane to avoid a man who was, by your list--truly frightening characters.
I don't think these men are moving upon fear of the women harming them with violence, they are concerned they may commit adultery by just being near them.
I don't think these men are moving upon fear of the women harming them with violence, they are concerned they may commit adultery by just being near them.
5
Please explain why you were all cheering yesterday when the White House spent public (i.e. the majority) tax payer money to bend over backwards and go so far as to actually build a separate bathroom in order spare transsexuals on the White House staff (a minority lifestyle choice, how many are there on staff?) the discomfort of using public restrooms, but you find it mortally offensive for a Hasidic Jew (a minority lifestyle choice) to have the temerity to simply ask you (the majority) to switch seats to spare themselves from religious discomfort?
And yes if someone asks rudely or keeps the plane waiting kick them off, but the comments are blasting even the notion of being asked to switch seats in order to accommodate someone else's "offensive" lifestyle choice.
Here in these comments lurking just beneath the justifiable outrage at the rudeness of keeping a plane waiting (which rarely happens) percolates something deeper, something more sinister- in the intensity of the language, the eagerness, the large brush- that has more to do with fear and disgust of "the other." You can sense it in the total unquestionable acceptance of this being a widespread phenomenon rather than a relatively rare occurrence despite nothing but hearsay as evidence.
And yes if someone asks rudely or keeps the plane waiting kick them off, but the comments are blasting even the notion of being asked to switch seats in order to accommodate someone else's "offensive" lifestyle choice.
Here in these comments lurking just beneath the justifiable outrage at the rudeness of keeping a plane waiting (which rarely happens) percolates something deeper, something more sinister- in the intensity of the language, the eagerness, the large brush- that has more to do with fear and disgust of "the other." You can sense it in the total unquestionable acceptance of this being a widespread phenomenon rather than a relatively rare occurrence despite nothing but hearsay as evidence.
19
Apparently all minorities are equal, but some are more equal than others.
(depending largely if supporting extra accommodations for them will fit your particular ideological agenda, and depending even more so if it will somehow help your progressive image for the 2016 elections by throwing them a symbolic bone after doing nothing for them in the last 6 years)
(depending largely if supporting extra accommodations for them will fit your particular ideological agenda, and depending even more so if it will somehow help your progressive image for the 2016 elections by throwing them a symbolic bone after doing nothing for them in the last 6 years)
2
Apparently all "others" are equal, but some are more equal than others.
6
Religion is not an offensive lifestyle choice, but what people do with it and how they behave are. Opening a restroom for transgender people in an office building is just as harmless as a Muslim foot-washing station at the entrance to a multi-religion chapel in an airport. No one insists that others must use these facilities. However, when a religious person enforces his or her beliefs at the expense and inconvenience of others, then we have a bit of a problem. No one has the right to stand in the middle of an aircraft and cause a delay. Religion is not the issue here; it is, rather, the behavior that religion causes.
48
Either we live in a secular state with laws and procedures applicable to every one or we don't. If we do, there is no room for any religious conviction to interfere with the law of the land, including the right of any woman to sit in her assigned seat in an aircraft. They can practice their religion in their homes and places of worship, but park it at the aircraft door. It is a public space where everyone is within their rights to expect normal procedures to apply to one and all. If I were a woman I would not yield one inch to this arrogance, and it should be illegal for any airline staff to even suggest it.
146
Perfectly stated! Thank you.
22
I agree. Good on Mark. Thank you.
3
I wonder how long it would take for federal agents and TSA officials to get involved if orthodox Musims were to demand special seating assignments, and hold up departures because of their religious sensitivities.
116
That is exactly what I thought. If Orthrodox Muslims asked not to sit next to a woman, they would probably be taken off the flight and suspected of being terrorists. I am sure some of them are not that comfortable sitting next to women buy they accept it as the cost of taking a commercial flight.
5
Well, because the TSA was formed in response to terror perpetrated by followers of the Islamic faith, I expect and hope that any unusual activity based on the religious sensitivities of those followers will continue to draw the immediate attention of federal security agents until we are convinced that the threat of terror from that source is substantially reduced.
Similarly, federal security agents should focus their attention on the bizarre behavior of these ultra-orthodox Jews as soon as this behavior becomes associated with a threat of terror from the ultra-orthodox (which to date has been nonexistent).
Similarly, federal security agents should focus their attention on the bizarre behavior of these ultra-orthodox Jews as soon as this behavior becomes associated with a threat of terror from the ultra-orthodox (which to date has been nonexistent).
Curious. Most of the right-leaning posters here feel different from you. They posit that "liberal" PC sentiments would lean in favor of Muslims. Instead of worrying about which insane religious prohibitions we should respect, why don't we merely reject them all? My religion demands that we do so!
Ultra-orthodoxy in any religion serves only to bolster stereotypes and provide ample fodder for those who wish to malign the entire religion. One's religious beliefs, be it heredi or Sunni, is a choice and just that. When those choices devolve into disrupting others' daily lives or, worse, discriminating against others, it's time to rethink those choices. This heredi's behavior is an embarrassment to all Jews who don't subscribe to such antiquated and antisocial behavior.
69
People who request special seating arrangements, pre-boards and others are required to make advance arrangements with the airlines. This is what the ultra-orthodox Jewish male passengers should do. Perhaps if they traveled with their wives, seating would be less problematic for them? Very often (am past airline employee), on a flight if someone is reassigned a seat, it has a domino effect in that it may mean others travelling together are split up or inconvenienced. Then there is the matter of all the baggage in the overhead bin that has to be moved. Pilots have a load sheet that is calculated, passengers, cargo, and fuel - sometimes they will request that passengers are seated in a specific area of the aircraft to balance the load sheet. Therefore, in my opinion, the time consuming bushiness of allocating where everyone sits on an aircraft should not be done on the tarmac, which is costing X amount of dollars every minute that goes by. Also factor in air traffic control, who have to orchestrate the takeoffs in a safe and efficient manner. The main concern should be getting the aircraft off the ground.
33
I believe in religious freedom. To me, that means I'm free to practice whatever religion I want, but not to impose my religious beliefs and practices on others. Likewise, I respect the right of Orthodox Jews to practice their religion, so long as they are not imposing their religious beliefs and practices on me.
To expect another passenger to change seats, and worse, to delay an entire flight, to accommodate someone's religious beliefs is asking too much.
If an Orthodox Jewish man wants to make sure he won't be seated next to a woman other than his wife, he is responsible for making his travel arrangements accordingly. He can choose not to travel on public transportation. He can choose a mode of transportation that will not require him to sit next to another person who might be a woman. Or, he can arrange to travel with other men so that they can reserve seats that fill out a row together.
To expect another passenger to change seats, and worse, to delay an entire flight, to accommodate someone's religious beliefs is asking too much.
If an Orthodox Jewish man wants to make sure he won't be seated next to a woman other than his wife, he is responsible for making his travel arrangements accordingly. He can choose not to travel on public transportation. He can choose a mode of transportation that will not require him to sit next to another person who might be a woman. Or, he can arrange to travel with other men so that they can reserve seats that fill out a row together.
44
He also could purchase the adjoining seat(s0, but that would cost .
Right, BDR. I forgot that option. Thanks.
The fact is that there is no such prohibition. However each Hasidic or Haredi rabbi tries to out-frum (act more holy) than the competing sects and comes up with new prohibitions. These usually deal with restricting the activities and clothing of women, girls, and female children. 50 years ago, none of these prohibitions existed.
89
Thank you. I am reminded of the Duggar family on TV who went swimming in the most absurd clothing possible and called it being modest. Fundamentalist Jews, Christians, and Muslims are all in a competition for the most onerous regulations to prove to their respective sky fairies that they really, really love them. They all get special favors from their sky fairies for humiliating women.
24
A little more thoughtfulness on the part of Orthodox Jewish men would alleviate this problem.
I am not Jewish or male, but I travel with a crutch. Sometimes I need a leg brace. Long ago I found that there are particular areas of the plane that are reserved for "the disabled." I have found that using the old fashioned way of making a reservation by phone works so that I can get my seat near the front exit door, and not inconvenience all the other passengers.
Perhaps all Orthodox Jewish men should follow the same procedure. Make your reservation over the phone. Tell them your problem and the airline will reserve a seat for you that allows you to avoid women, instead of reserving a seat on line and causing all kinds of problems while boarding.
I am not Jewish or male, but I travel with a crutch. Sometimes I need a leg brace. Long ago I found that there are particular areas of the plane that are reserved for "the disabled." I have found that using the old fashioned way of making a reservation by phone works so that I can get my seat near the front exit door, and not inconvenience all the other passengers.
Perhaps all Orthodox Jewish men should follow the same procedure. Make your reservation over the phone. Tell them your problem and the airline will reserve a seat for you that allows you to avoid women, instead of reserving a seat on line and causing all kinds of problems while boarding.
25
If any airline makes a woman move because of this, they would and should be sued for sex discrimination. I venture to say if they even ask, or if they even quietly pre-arrange segregated seating (as some commenters suggest), they're already over the line. Their legal departments might be fielding calls from the Justice Department this afternoon. The airlines need to stop this right now, or suffer the legal repercussions they should know well. The line should be drawn so that these religious bigots learn immediately that the world refuses to revolve around them.
91
I think Rosa Parks led the way on this, December 1, 1955. The issue is the same more than a half-century later--one set of people not wanting to be near another, one set of people claiming supremacy over another group who they so revile, they can't even sit next to them.
It's 2015, enough said. Everyone should take a seat with dignity.
It's 2015, enough said. Everyone should take a seat with dignity.
75
Best comment on this thread. It really is that simple.
1
Just like Hasidim in New York have their own special private buses on which no women are allowed, I suggest they consider investing in their own private air fleet for men only. If they want to take advantage of 21st century public conveyances, they need to play by 21st century rules, not 19th century ones. Is it just me or do others think Hasidim and other Orthodox Jews are the only religious groups getting so much special treatment in New York?
Ten or so years ago I was flying from NY to London on Virgin Upper Class, and was wakened in the morning by an Orthodox Jew in the aisle rocking back and forth in a prayer shawl and assorted other orthodox gear doing his morning prayers. I couldn't imagine why someone like him would be on an airline like Virgin in the first place, given its branding, flight attendant attire, etc. But who knows, maybe they don't just pray and avoid women; maybe they are chasing after miles and upgrades (not to mention those Upper Class massages) just like so many others.
I live near the Israeli Consulate in New York. Needless to say, there are many demonstrations there. Some of the most obnoxious ones are by Hasidim, hundreds if not thousands of them (all men and boys, no women demonstrators allowed there, thank you very much) protesting that Israel is TOO LIBERAL and needs to become MORE CONSERVATIVE. I always enjoy needling them with taunts like "hey,where's the little woman?"
Ten or so years ago I was flying from NY to London on Virgin Upper Class, and was wakened in the morning by an Orthodox Jew in the aisle rocking back and forth in a prayer shawl and assorted other orthodox gear doing his morning prayers. I couldn't imagine why someone like him would be on an airline like Virgin in the first place, given its branding, flight attendant attire, etc. But who knows, maybe they don't just pray and avoid women; maybe they are chasing after miles and upgrades (not to mention those Upper Class massages) just like so many others.
I live near the Israeli Consulate in New York. Needless to say, there are many demonstrations there. Some of the most obnoxious ones are by Hasidim, hundreds if not thousands of them (all men and boys, no women demonstrators allowed there, thank you very much) protesting that Israel is TOO LIBERAL and needs to become MORE CONSERVATIVE. I always enjoy needling them with taunts like "hey,where's the little woman?"
49
..."hey,where's the little woman?"?
...yes, by all means, taunt them. that's the mature way to handle a situation....
...yes, by all means, taunt them. that's the mature way to handle a situation....
2
It is absurd that airlines are even accommodating such requests. So, if a person who is a strict adherent to Jainism suggests that s/he is uncomfortable sitting next to a person who eats meat or is troubled by the smell of non-vegetarian food, how would the airline manage this request?
34
While I have no problem with very religious people adhering to their rules in the confines of their communities, when they choose to interact with the general public, they should expect to conform to secular society, not the other way around. This is especially true when their (very outdated) traditions are at odds with mainstream values, like gender equity.
As dismaying as it is to hear alarmist warnings about an (imagined) specter of Islamic Sharia law in the United States, it is equally concerning when we turn a blind eye to religious extremism from the Judeo-Christian tradition. We should resist backwards religious values -- like segregating the genders -- no matter what religion they come from, and keep these norms from creeping into American society.
As dismaying as it is to hear alarmist warnings about an (imagined) specter of Islamic Sharia law in the United States, it is equally concerning when we turn a blind eye to religious extremism from the Judeo-Christian tradition. We should resist backwards religious values -- like segregating the genders -- no matter what religion they come from, and keep these norms from creeping into American society.
66
I can only imagine what life must be like for gays in Indiana. Religious fanaticism in all forms in dangerous to human civilization.
13
I have seen male and female Hasidim of all sects on the L train in NYC sit anywhere and everywhere next to whomever. They also stand in very crowded trains where there is more of a chance of brushing up next to someone of the opposite sex.
23
When I worked in Mauritania, I wore a head scarf. When I went to a service in a conservative synagogue, I dressed modestly and sat in the women's section. I respected their cultures. When ultra Orthodox Jewish men fly American airlines, they need to respect my culture, be that be booking seats together or, if traveling alone, book two seats.
57
Several years ago the ultra-orthodox wanted separate swimming times for men and women in a public pool owned by Nassau County. The request was thankfully turned down and the ultra-orthodox community was told if they didn't want to adhere to the pool rules then build your own facility. This should apply to the airlines.
Let those unhappy with the current seating of airplanes start their own airlines. No one should be asked to move their assigned seat to accommodate such ridiculous requests. BTW I am a Jew who would not move one centimeter if asked by a member of that sect of my religion.
Let those unhappy with the current seating of airplanes start their own airlines. No one should be asked to move their assigned seat to accommodate such ridiculous requests. BTW I am a Jew who would not move one centimeter if asked by a member of that sect of my religion.
79
If his religion does not allow him to sit by a woman, then HE should be the one expected to change seats. He can ask others to change seats so he will sit by another man. He should not expect the woman to change seats to accomodate his religious beliefs.
51
But how would they plan better though? Asking for the airline to determine the sex of the person in the next seat when booking? Buying 2 seats?
1
Better yet, let them purchase 2 seats and select the window and adjoining middle seat. Or, if this becomes more prevalent, on flights to Israel, the airlines could designate the least desirable seats by the toilets in the back for men only and then charge double for them as a special section.
8
buying two seats would be fine.
4
About 10 years ago, flying from Baltimore --> NY --> London on a Friday afternoon, I was asked to change my flight because a rather large Orthodox Jewish family was flying to NY and needed to get there before sunset. This was going to be a huge inconvenience for me, since I would miss my connection in NY to London, where my family would be waiting for me at the airport.
The Jewish family made a huge stink in the airport, lots of screaming and shouting that they HAD to get on that flight, which meant several of us had to get off. Finally, when the airline offered to upgrade, etc. several of us took the offer (basically because the airline said if we didn't get off, they wouldn't guarantee we'd get on any other flight). I ended up going from Baltimore -->Chicago --> London, which isn't exactly direct.
My continuous question to the airline was why didn't these people plan better and why weren't there enough seats for the whole family? They knew they had to be in NY before sunset, and they should have booked their flights to make sure that happened so as not to inconvenience so many other people, including my family waiting at Heathrow.
It still irritates me.
The Jewish family made a huge stink in the airport, lots of screaming and shouting that they HAD to get on that flight, which meant several of us had to get off. Finally, when the airline offered to upgrade, etc. several of us took the offer (basically because the airline said if we didn't get off, they wouldn't guarantee we'd get on any other flight). I ended up going from Baltimore -->Chicago --> London, which isn't exactly direct.
My continuous question to the airline was why didn't these people plan better and why weren't there enough seats for the whole family? They knew they had to be in NY before sunset, and they should have booked their flights to make sure that happened so as not to inconvenience so many other people, including my family waiting at Heathrow.
It still irritates me.
189
So if they got there after sunset, would they have melted?
36
Irritate, I would be infuriated, and would have never gotten off. Sunsets happen every day!
18
no but they wouldn't have been able to leave the airport because during the sabbath all forms of transportation are forbidden.
Yes, they should have planned better, but this may have been an emergency and had no notice about having to be in ny (as for attending a funeral, or something else.)
Yes, they should have planned better, but this may have been an emergency and had no notice about having to be in ny (as for attending a funeral, or something else.)
In principle, I don't object to airlines providing accommodation for this archaic and somewhat offensive religious practice in advance of boarding. However, I do object to these men simply getting on a plane and expecting the rest of the passengers to start playing musical chairs to accommodate them, and holding the entire flight hostage until they get what they want. If they want to be certain they won't be soiled and defiled by sitting next to a woman on an airplane, let them buy two seats.
91
That's a very anti-Semitic viewpoint -- and unless you understand the basic tenets of the religion, you're not in a position to judge them. To say "soiled" and defiled" is offensive -- and while his behavior (or the behavior in general) was absolutely obnoxious, there are religious restrictions, rules, laws, that drive much of this.
Also, many people are forgetting that the Orthodox are largely disenfranchised citizens who are absolutely in a closed society and truthfully, they treat their own people the same way. "Manners" or "etiquette" is not found in their lives, for the most part (I am a runaway from this lifestyle) nor is the word in any of their dictionaries.
Also, many people are forgetting that the Orthodox are largely disenfranchised citizens who are absolutely in a closed society and truthfully, they treat their own people the same way. "Manners" or "etiquette" is not found in their lives, for the most part (I am a runaway from this lifestyle) nor is the word in any of their dictionaries.
1
Cathi - the reason these Orthodox men refuse to sit near unrelated women is because they don't want to be tempted, not even in thought, to break their marriage vows. It has nothing to do with their being "soiled" or "defiled" and it is hasty of you to suggest so.
Having said that, I agree with most of the commentators here: let these men grow up and learn constraint, choose to not fly, or buy 2 seats. The behavior exhibited is unacceptable in the public domain. Hasidic rabbis (or rebbes) should explain this to their followers.
Having said that, I agree with most of the commentators here: let these men grow up and learn constraint, choose to not fly, or buy 2 seats. The behavior exhibited is unacceptable in the public domain. Hasidic rabbis (or rebbes) should explain this to their followers.
5
There's nothing remotely antisemitic in the comment above, and as a "member of the tribe", her comment absolutely rings true with the facet of fundamentalist judaism that both subjugates women and instructs men that they should not risk touching (non-sexually) a non-relative female. It also does not matter what "drives" them, and we could debate endlessly about what exactly it is. It only matters that they are not entitled in the public square (the airplane) to any more of the square than they purchased (their specific seat). Entitlement, however, is what all patriarchal religious beliefs tell their men they have.
12
This is no different than people who use "religious freedom" to push their own agendas.
If a man gets offended by sitting next to a woman he should get a pair of eyeshades and pop in some earbuds.
If a man gets offended by sitting next to a woman he should get a pair of eyeshades and pop in some earbuds.
33
and some therapy.
16
I have to wonder how many fist fights might break out on airplanes if big, strong men (and especially men of color) were confronted by another man and being told to get up and move. You get to the airport hours early so you can go through onerous security measures, you pay hundreds of dollars to fly, you get to your seat and then you've got to move? How many men do you think would put up with this?
Theresa
Washington, DC
Theresa
Washington, DC
80
Simple solution. Buy two seats, or three if need be, or pay the extra fee for booking a specific seat. Don't force your beliefs on me, and I won't force mine on you.
55
Why isn't this taken care of prior to boarding. Surely the (irrational) orthodox men can advise the airline in advance not to seat them next to a woman. Problem solved. They can accommodate the true handicapped, why not the mentally handicapped?
36
I'm disabled can you define "true handicapped"? BTW, I have a traumatic brain injury and someone always flies with me to help.
This is bullying disguised as piety.
The Ultra-Orthodox, as is common with every dogma-based faith, give weight to what they choose to and less weight to what they don't choose to. It's against numerous commandments to lie, to cheat others, to bear false witness, to treat one's neighbor as lesser than oneself, to harm or discomfit the stranger in one's land.
The Ultra-Orthodox man who gets hysterical at the thought of sitting next to a woman not his wife may be perfectly at ease committing various other non-sex-related transgressions, forgetting, for some unfathomable reason, that the Lord sees everything and everywhere...
The Ultra-Orthodox, as is common with every dogma-based faith, give weight to what they choose to and less weight to what they don't choose to. It's against numerous commandments to lie, to cheat others, to bear false witness, to treat one's neighbor as lesser than oneself, to harm or discomfit the stranger in one's land.
The Ultra-Orthodox man who gets hysterical at the thought of sitting next to a woman not his wife may be perfectly at ease committing various other non-sex-related transgressions, forgetting, for some unfathomable reason, that the Lord sees everything and everywhere...
77
And he may also be very comfortable visiting his local bordello. I recall a police case 10 or so years ago involving a bordello on the Upper East Side that was raided. It turns out it was very popular with ultra-orthodox Jewish men from Brooklyn.
4
Those people who didn't want to serve pizzas at gay weddings raised thousands of dollars of support on the Internet. I urge these ultra-Orthodox men to raise their own money for the cause of buying extra airplane seats for themselves so they won't have to sit next to anyone who could threaten their delicate values by being remotely sexually attractive.
61
I fly very frequently and often witness flight attendants going to great lengths...to sit couples and families together. The motivation for the Haredi to request passengers change their seats might not conform to the values of the individual asked to make the switch. But I do not see that the impact is any different.
But I can also make a counter argument: If someone asks to be reseated because he/she does not want to be seated next to someone of a different race, this is not acceptable.
Does gender = race? No, it does not. Because the racist is doing this out of pure prejudice and hatred, while the Haredi is doing it out of a religious conviction.
How Talmudic...
But I can also make a counter argument: If someone asks to be reseated because he/she does not want to be seated next to someone of a different race, this is not acceptable.
Does gender = race? No, it does not. Because the racist is doing this out of pure prejudice and hatred, while the Haredi is doing it out of a religious conviction.
How Talmudic...
6
The Haredi who asks a woman to move is doing so because of who she is, her DNA. Segregation is segregation, whether it's blacks, women or Jews confined to Ghettos.
79
So discrimination based on gender is Talmudic but if based on race it is not? I am sorry - but you haven't really convinced me.
26
It seems there is a difference between passengers and families asking to be seated together, and a hysterical adult throwing a tantrum over a belief to which most sane people wouldn't subscribe.
10
This is silliness. Surely there's one person on the plane who would voluntarily move to accommodate someone's religious beliefs.
5
Most religious beliefs (especially those around gender) smack of bigotry, which is why this man was left standing in the aisle where a parent who wanted to be seated near his child would not have been.
2
Not the point. Any religious belief, no matter how sincerely held, should have no effect on public transportation or on public life in any sphere.
3
No problem with someone's religion or their beliefs, what I do object to is when is is foisted on the masses. Practice your religion....at home, in your temples, etc but not on public transport. It's a matter of principle, and I for one would not give up my seat. Sorry.
1
Perhaps the ultra-Orthodox men should charter their own planes. If I pay for a seat, I am entitled to sit in it, thank you very much. If you don't like it, you can move. I respect their right to observe as they choose, but they have no right -- none whatsoever -- to inflict their archaic values and opinions about women on me or anyone else. These men's behavior, both on planes and in the busses in Israel, is really beyond the Pale in every sense of the phrase.
66
If you are worried about who you sit next to, buy 2 seats. Otherwise, tough luck. This is a public accommodation. BTW: I am a Conservative Jew.
48
From everything I've seen:
a) the men themselves desiring a seating arrangement change are willing to move themselves rather than have someone else move instead of themselves
b) many Orthodox women, too, desire to sit next to someone of their own gender for the same reason;it isn't only men who request this accommodation
c) the requests are made politely and if the person asked declines the rejection is accepted graciously and the person will politely ask someone else instead.
a) the men themselves desiring a seating arrangement change are willing to move themselves rather than have someone else move instead of themselves
b) many Orthodox women, too, desire to sit next to someone of their own gender for the same reason;it isn't only men who request this accommodation
c) the requests are made politely and if the person asked declines the rejection is accepted graciously and the person will politely ask someone else instead.
9
Politely ask someone else, or stand in the aisle refusing to sit, essentially holding the plane hostage until they are accommodated...according to some of the comments. I travel for work and have on occasion switched seats for various reasons, but as a woman, I would be Hard pressed to switch because of my gender. That switch better include an upgrade to a better seat, a free drink and the guy looking me in the eye and human to human saying Thank you.
6
Good points.
1
Please do not judge the actions of a select few to represent thousands.
The silent majority of us Ultra Orthodox Jews are cringing at this.
There are appropriate ways to handle situations.
But however don't feel bad for us women. This is for our protection and security in our relationships....
The silent majority of us Ultra Orthodox Jews are cringing at this.
There are appropriate ways to handle situations.
But however don't feel bad for us women. This is for our protection and security in our relationships....
9
And it surely deserves more respect than is shown in this flood of commentary.
Is this not something that could be taken care of pre-boarding? It would seem that it would be known that the flights on which accommodations would be sought would be known, and passengers could voice their preferences in advance.
Is this not something that could be taken care of pre-boarding? It would seem that it would be known that the flights on which accommodations would be sought would be known, and passengers could voice their preferences in advance.
1
Sorry, but I feel terrible for you. I cannot help it.
16
however, your beliefs, as fond of them as you might be, carry no weight for many of us. as long as you are a decent human and don't mess with others, i have no problem. these pieces of trash, however, who persist in being obnoxious, deserve no consideration and I hope will never, ever, receive any. same to all of you door-to-door evangelists.
7
As a disabled traveler, I find it beneficial to make my individual accommodations known to the airlines by completing my seat selection by telephone as soon as purchasing my tickets online. I can't imagine any airline refusing to honor a reasonable accommodation when made in advance, in much the same way special dietary requests are made.
Any special requests made when a plane is boarding is unreasonable. Most travelers are well aware of our limitations and should be aware of the many inconveniences inherent in public transportation.
Any special requests made when a plane is boarding is unreasonable. Most travelers are well aware of our limitations and should be aware of the many inconveniences inherent in public transportation.
20
I'm thinking of when the person already seated looks androgynous. Will the Ultraorthodox man require a chromosome test to determine the gender of the seated passenger before he will sit down? Will it go as far as invading medical privacy? And seeing as I have a medical degree and have assisted in medical emergencies on several different flights (everyone lived) and I happen to be female - I have to request that the Ultraorthodox guy please put a sticker on his coat in English that states, "if I become unconscious, only a male may assist me" because I don't want to help him against his wishes. Finally, I am also a medium - and having had contact with those in spirit, I know beyond a doubt that there is no religion in the next life. Nope, none - so if you think heaven is only for your religion, or that you will be segregated from others in the next life due to your religion, then you're in for a BIG surprise.
41
You are a lucky indeed. How else to explain the great fortune of personally possessing the power to rule out the existence of religion in the next life through direct contact with spirits in that life? I would imagine that your lucky super (and supernatural) powers would be very useful in all aspects life, and greatly facilitate the process of earning a medical degree, planning for retirement, and even picking NCAA brackets. Undoubtedly, these much less fortunate ultra-orthodox who, by the way, generally have no belief in a "heaven," would instantly reject their thousand year old beliefs if they but knew of the things you learned so directly through your super powers.
My religion dictates that I don't sit within 100 feet of any misogynists. Next time I fly, I'm demanding that no men be allowed on the flight. *Just in case.*
66
Why not leave religion out of it? Basing it simply on live and let live, I completely understand if, for whatever reason, one person really, really doesn't want to sit next to another person on a plane. I sincerely respect the wish, but it doesn't equate to a moral right or a demand that others must be held hostage to accommodate! And if we must bring religion into it -- are not the best religious impulses unselfish?..
9
It happened to me a few years back on a flight to Düsseldorf from NYC. The flight attendant was enraged by the situation. The man did not seem at all embarrassed by the fuss he was making. I got bumped up to first class, but the memory still makes me angry.
48
That is the only way I would move is if they moved me to first class. I choose my seat ahead of time for certain reasons and I will only move if it will help a family with small children not some ultra religious guy who cannot think straight.
20
It's amazing; 1,762 comments regarding an extremely minor issue, while the article about Kansas trying to deny abortions managed a paltry 36 so far.
Either readers are fascinated with a tiny segment of the population that lives by still lives by a God given moral code, or people simply can't stand anyone who still lives by a God given moral code.
Either readers are fascinated with a tiny segment of the population that lives by still lives by a God given moral code, or people simply can't stand anyone who still lives by a God given moral code.
7
Such "God-given" moral codes are precisely what lead to the abortion restriction law in Kansas.
42
People are fascinated by the peculiar .
6
God given, huh. What century are you living in?
21
If I traveled to a country or region that required me to obey such rules, I would. However, aboard an international airline, no such gender or religious rules apply or should apply. When one boards they should expect to be provided the same treatment as every customer paying for the same accommodations.
When one chooses to live by ancient ways, they can expect to find themselves in conflict when they go out into the modern world.
When one chooses to live by ancient ways, they can expect to find themselves in conflict when they go out into the modern world.
20
Evie, the behavior is not "ancient". It's something fairly modern and has picked up speed these last few years.
No way should any woman be required move from her seat to accommodate a stranger's religious demands. It is his responsibility to plan his trip so that he does not need to make unreasonable demands. If he is so restricted by his religion then he must either purchase extra seating to have an empty seat next to him or arrange to fly with a companion he can sit next to. Furthermore anyone who makes such a demand and delays the flight should simply be put off the plane and if he refuses to move, then arrest him and take him off the plane.
42
I would move if I could get a better seat. Seems like he could coordinate to change seats with someone in a different aisle, but the same seat - window, middle, aisle - although it would be hard since he can't talk to half the people. What a handicap that religion is! I have panic attacks, he's religious - we all have issues of one kind or another. I'm happy to help other people when I can. Why would a woman want to sit next to someone who was so against sitting next to her?
1
@ "Why would a woman want to sit next to someone who was so against sitting next to her?"
Yeah, why would Rosa Parks have wanted to sit up at the front of the bus next to all those Alabama white folks who were so against sitting next to her?
Yeah, why would Rosa Parks have wanted to sit up at the front of the bus next to all those Alabama white folks who were so against sitting next to her?
1
I don't think this issue should be seen only as religious. Choosing one's 'seat mate' can be seen simply as a personal decision. I make this point because, as a woman, I have had several negative experiences with men sitting next to me on flights. One time a man was watching pornography on his laptop, and that experience was offensive and intrusive. Many times I have been touched by men sitting next to me on flights and I feel that my proximity to them makes me vulnerable to being purposely touched, whether with sexual intention or control. Of course, even a person of the same sex can do these things, but in my experience, as a woman, it has been men. Commercial flight poses unique problems about touching. I avoid flying as much as possible because of the increased potential to encounter inappropriate intentional touching by 'seat mates'. They are called 'seat mates', after all.
7
That's horrible. There should be rules about watching pornography on a plane. I would have said something to the flight attendant and asked to change my seat. I would argue it is abusive to have to sit next to someone watching that.
8
Careful, now. My religion requires that I watch pornography while flying. Constantly; the really filthy stuff. And I need lots of room while doing so. So please move your seat.
7
I think this comment and its response show perhaps better than any other comments or facets to this story, how Judaism always tries to offer a beacon of decency to the world: many bristle at the Orthodox endeavor to avoid sensually-tinged contact with strangers or inject sexuality into a flight experience, but these comments show just how tainted and tawdry the environment can be, and the foremost challenge to this abasement comes from the Torah principles so many are quick to deride.
3
Based on the tone of many of these comments, we are in for bad times in the years ahead, as our social contract continues to become even more threadbare. This isn't an issue of being forced to do anything, whether by some governmental authority, by an airline, or by anyone else. Rather, it is a matter of voluntarily attempting accommodation, courtesy and respect for religious/philosophical differences in a pluralistic society. No one needs to give up or switch his or her seat for a pregnant mother, an elderly person, an injured or disabled person, a young child, etc. -- such accommodations are almost always purely voluntary, as they should be. But, in the good society, we make them. I fail to see why, on a purely voluntary basis, the same should not be extended to religious accommodations -- even those (indeed, perhaps especially those) with which one does not personally agree.
7
The reason is, those religious accommodations are archaic, misogynistic, and place unnecessary demands on people who have no reason to follow them. If Orthodox men cannot be around women who aren't their wives, then like Saudi Arabian women, they should never leave the house.
If they said, well my religious beliefs insist that I buy two seats so no woman will set next to me, that'd be fine. If they insisted on chartering private planes, or driving themselves everywhere, that'd be fine too. But they may not tell other people to change what they're doing because of their belief, which has zero basis in physical reality and is thus, to the rest of us, pointless.
If they said, well my religious beliefs insist that I buy two seats so no woman will set next to me, that'd be fine. If they insisted on chartering private planes, or driving themselves everywhere, that'd be fine too. But they may not tell other people to change what they're doing because of their belief, which has zero basis in physical reality and is thus, to the rest of us, pointless.
19
I will make religious accommodations, as long as requests are made politely, as long as the person making them is willing to inconvenience himself more than me, and as long as the request is not based on misogyny, racism, or other bigoted discriminatory views. I will not give into misogyny no matter how many cloaks of religion are wrapped around it.
19
Indeed. But the issue raised in this article is not about a polite accommodation. It is some rude person next to you telling you to leave your seat because they religiously object to your entire sex being near them. On an airline no less. No gentleman would do that. Religion and manners can easily co-exist if practictioners are polite.
24
Orthodox is defined by Merriman Webster as accepting and closely following the traditional beliefs and customs of a religion. By definition, then, the ultra-orthodox cannot compromise in any manner for the sake of a secular society. To do so would be unorthodox and unacceptable. As anybody who knows someone who is ultra-orthodox (Jewish or other) can tell you, "compromise" and "accommodation" are two words that do not exist in their dictionary. In the particular case of flying, the only solution, as suggested by so many commentators, is for the ultra-orthodox to make arrangements to suit their needs in advance, such as buying more than one seat, or making alternative arrangements, such as chartering a plane. While it is nice when someone offers to change seats for the sake of someone who is untra-orthodox, there is no moral or legal imperative to do so. Anybody who is disruptive, regardless of their religious or other affiliations, should get off the plane voluntarily or be removed, arrested and prosecuted.
44
I don't understand why these individuals are being allowed to disrupt these flights in this way. If the airline is too cowardly to do its job and make the offending individual get off the plane, the police should be called. If I was on such a flight and nothing was done, I would call the police to report the disruptive passenger who is refusing to be seated.
4
bashersq09
These individuals are religious people who practice a religion that is 4,000 years old.They are set in their ways & usually live a secluded life where they are free to observe their religion as they interpret it.They are not unlike the Amish or Monks, Nuns or Mongolian Priests.They don't mean to be rude or inconsiderate, it's just that they are uncomfortable when their religion puts them in a situation they did not expect to be in, & they panic, in fear that they may be breaking their Jewish laws. Most Jews like myself have evolved & adjusted to life outside our personal beliefs. These people are still evolving, but it may take centuries before they can handle certain situations that conflict with their beliefs. Try to have patience with them & forgive them if they appear to be inconsiderate.
These individuals are religious people who practice a religion that is 4,000 years old.They are set in their ways & usually live a secluded life where they are free to observe their religion as they interpret it.They are not unlike the Amish or Monks, Nuns or Mongolian Priests.They don't mean to be rude or inconsiderate, it's just that they are uncomfortable when their religion puts them in a situation they did not expect to be in, & they panic, in fear that they may be breaking their Jewish laws. Most Jews like myself have evolved & adjusted to life outside our personal beliefs. These people are still evolving, but it may take centuries before they can handle certain situations that conflict with their beliefs. Try to have patience with them & forgive them if they appear to be inconsiderate.
2
This is complete and utter nonsense. Compromise, realism and practicality are at the heart of Orthodox Judaism; it's just that it sets up a complex method and legal framework for determining the conditions of any compromises. I won't get into specifics, but suffice to say the stereotype of mechanical, unthinking, uncritical rigidity is absurdly off the mark. Just as our secular legal system addresses itself to the run if the mill cases and the constitutional crisis situations with as much integrity and nuance and fairness it can muster, the Torah system par excellence takes people and the various scenarios and predicaments they create realistically as they are and attempts to find solutions that accommodate all legitimate needs and requirements, with certain non-negotiable bedrock commitments like prohibition of murder and idolatry. The orthodox are not unthinking robots. If my neighbor in an airplane would suddenly start picking his nose relentlessly and construct a mucous sculpture of a phallus, I would demand he or I be re-seated. A woman wearing the equivalent of a bikini, while perhaps but technically violating a law, would legitimately trigger the same response. But the Torah doesn't allow me to try to force or pressure any woman, in non-extreme (as the bikini example) cases to relocate; that's a Torah violation.
3
There is a VERY simple solution: Have the ultra-Orthodox Jewish men purchase two tickets next to each other, one of them being an aisle. This way, he will never have to worry that a woman would be next to him.
Good grief. What would happen should a female flight attendant accidentally brush up against him while pushing the cart down the isle? Clearly, this would be an international calamity.
Good grief. What would happen should a female flight attendant accidentally brush up against him while pushing the cart down the isle? Clearly, this would be an international calamity.
33
How about if the airline can provide some over the head full body protection napkin blessed by the appropriate entities to ensure purity for the ones who are upset and then it can be disposed of when the close quarters are left. Isnt this all about thoughts after all. You could stay in your seat. With protection. For a price of course. A guy burka kind of thing.
47
The problem is with the beholder here, the Orthodox men who are so worried about controlling their sexual impulses that they can't sit next to any female who is not their wives.
The problem is NOT with the bystander who happens to be female.
Why on earth should we indulge people who are so afraid of their own sexuality?
The problem is NOT with the bystander who happens to be female.
Why on earth should we indulge people who are so afraid of their own sexuality?
52
Oh, and you're not talking about the Taliban... or Congress...
Are we finally getting this? Can we overturn the Hobby Lobby decision now?
57
It's not so much overturning HL; it's overturning the misguided law that it interpreted.
I have a sincerely held religious belief that anyone who asks a woman to change seats should be ejected from the plane at 30,000 feet. I expect airlines to honor this belief.
60
If an Orthodox man has a problem sitting next to a woman on a flight, he should always be the one to switch seats, never her. It's not her problem, it's his problem, and not an actual problem for modern people.
If he can't find a seat to his liking, the Orthodox man should get off the plane and walk to his destination as God intended.
If he can't find a seat to his liking, the Orthodox man should get off the plane and walk to his destination as God intended.
124
As a psychologist who has done a lot of work with phobic patients, one of the better techniques is to use exposure therapy. Essentially, a person who is phobic or uncomfortable with a situation and hence avoids it all costs, is 'encouraged' to expose himself to it to reduce his anxiety and avoidance.
Thus, in order to 'help' these poor suffering Orthodox men, the next time one demands a woman to move- she should immediately give the man a hearty lap dance. Not for any prurient or salacious reason of course; but rather to assist the gentleman to enter the age of the 21st century.
Thus, in order to 'help' these poor suffering Orthodox men, the next time one demands a woman to move- she should immediately give the man a hearty lap dance. Not for any prurient or salacious reason of course; but rather to assist the gentleman to enter the age of the 21st century.
22
For those Orthodox men who are unwilling to sit next to a strange woman, there is a simple remedy: if their faith is so important, buy two tickets.
28
Maybe these stingy airlines should make their seats bigger so their staff does not have to deal with so many of these orthodox men complaining. Or ask that on the booking questionnaire so that the airline can tell them they may only purchase business, first class or 2 seats, so they will be accommodated as they wish.
5
Maybe the airlines can make 'cones of silence' that they can pull down around themselves. Probably could sell those to more than just Orthodox....
1
"Ultra-Orthodox men and their families now make up a larger share of airline travelers to Israel and other locations, and they are exerting their economic influence more often, making their views more widely known in response to what they see as the sexualization of society." Really? From the beginning of the human race, there have been women and men; it's not as if women just arrived on the planet and began "sexualizing" it. We make up more than half the world's population. There is no separation by gender in the skies. If this is what these people require, they should charter their own planes. It is beyond selfish for them to refuse to be seated and delay flights, thereby inconveniencing their fellow passengers. The sense of entitlement here is very troubling.
80
Good thing for the orthodox that there have been women from the beginning or they wouldn't be here today. BTW, who was Cain's female partner? Seems like the only one who could have been was Eve -- his mother. Good thing the 10 commandments hadn't been invented yet.
3
A plane is a secular mode of transportation shared by every kind of person imaginable. It is not a temple, a church or a mosque. Hire a private plane if you wish to practice your religion in flight.
76
Forgive me if someone has already raised this point, as there are many comments on here (too many to read) - but many other groups of people that require special circumstances on planes make advance arrangements. Religious seating appears to have become an issue, so let's make it an available option for people to disclose at time of booking - at no additional cost. Although seating on airplanes can be a game of Tetris - no reason we can't try to accommodate all - as long as it's done in advance.
12
What shall we call this advance seating arrangement: "Gender Apartheid"?
5
I can understand the need to "respect" other religions (or other people in general). But "respect" does not mean obey, conform, etc. Religion(s) generally mean conformity for its beiievers but there is not right to expect others to accommodate. To me "respect" means, no judgements, hassles, or respect. But this group in fact demands "respect (ie, special accommodations) but does not think it owes the same to others. Hypocrisy.
35
I was raised Jewish and if I saw this behavior on a flight I would have no trouble telling a fundamentalist Orthodox man to sit down or find another seat. If he just stood there and refused to move, I would call for the steward to take care of the situation. There is no way I would move my seat for a delusional nut like that....
We cannot let these fundamentalist religious fanatics take over our secular society. Fight back...
We cannot let these fundamentalist religious fanatics take over our secular society. Fight back...
98
"tempted?" The idea that every woman represents an opportunity for temptation reveals the disfunction of this form of religion. Is this even a religious concern or is it just another form of sexual assault? To ask a woman to move her seat because she would be viewed by a strange man as a sexual opportunity is a sexual intrusion into her private space. Men who make this demand should be escorted off the plane and the police should be called.
84
"The idea that every woman represents an opportunity for temptation reveals the dysfunction of this form of religion."
Well said. That also describes Islam's view in a nutshell, and unlike Orthodox Judaism, that's over a billion humans.
And pox on both their houses.
Well said. That also describes Islam's view in a nutshell, and unlike Orthodox Judaism, that's over a billion humans.
And pox on both their houses.
12
That is not "Islam's view in a nutshell." Just as with Judaism (and Christianity) there are many interpretations of Islam. The very conservative elements of a religion do not represent the whole.
1
Can you imagine how they treat their wives and daughters. It makes me shudder.
2
I had an experience in Ben Gurion Airport much like those described in this article. It is infuriating that someone who chooses their religion cannot also choose to deal with the real world and the consequences of that choice.
I was trying to bring my check-in baggage to a back room (the bag was slightly ripped and they wanted to tape it). about 30 Hasids were also waiting with their kosher food (they could not travel for long periods without their own food). When I tried to make my way through the crowd, they would not acknowledge me and often looked away - making no effort to let me through. I asked politely several times and then got frustrated. That's it, I thought. And barreled through! They moved right quick.
I am a person. A fully realized and functional human being. I should not be ignored or disregarded because these men are afraid of my vagina! Or worse, afraid that they can't be controled around me enough to not desire my vagina!!! No more victim blaming. No more slut shaming. I am a proud Jew and these men, these men are not Jews -- they are religious extremists.
I was trying to bring my check-in baggage to a back room (the bag was slightly ripped and they wanted to tape it). about 30 Hasids were also waiting with their kosher food (they could not travel for long periods without their own food). When I tried to make my way through the crowd, they would not acknowledge me and often looked away - making no effort to let me through. I asked politely several times and then got frustrated. That's it, I thought. And barreled through! They moved right quick.
I am a person. A fully realized and functional human being. I should not be ignored or disregarded because these men are afraid of my vagina! Or worse, afraid that they can't be controled around me enough to not desire my vagina!!! No more victim blaming. No more slut shaming. I am a proud Jew and these men, these men are not Jews -- they are religious extremists.
160
"It is infuriating that someone who chooses their religion cannot also choose to deal with the real world . . . " Being religious is the intentional choice of ignoring reality.
7
Thank you, Margot, exactly. I'm the Laura quoted in this article, and the following tweet of mine is how this journalist found me: "On the flight to London, a Hasidic man couldn't sit next to me (a woman), so the seat was left empty. I got 6 hours' sleep. #thanksvajajay." Even if my husband didn't have gripping anxiety about flying and require an aisle seat, on principle I still wouldn't have moved my seat.
4
no -they are Orthodox Jews. Why do you so insult their religious views?
1
Rosa Parks et al were required to sit in the back of the bus becuase the nice pale people of Birmingham considered her et al to be unclean. Let me very very clear. I will not move from a seat I have paid for if the reason is that I am a woman. I have just sent a note of same to American Airlines and Delta where my frequent flyer miles sit. If asked to do, there will be no end of it. The "optics" and my complaint with the FAA will not be pretty.
100
A couple of decades ago journalist Mike Zelenzigef then foreign correspondent with Knight Ridder was flying to Israel with his wife.
A Haredim asked hr to move and she adamantly refused. ( my hero ) and he wrote a great column about it. Surprised to hear this is surfacing again.
No we should not give in to extremists of any stripe.
A Haredim asked hr to move and she adamantly refused. ( my hero ) and he wrote a great column about it. Surprised to hear this is surfacing again.
No we should not give in to extremists of any stripe.
12
I am getting fat, as most Americans, as I get older. I am close to 40. I fly for work constantly as I am in banking. Economy class seats are torture. I will create a religion that allows no one to seat next to me.
39
In lots of ways banking has been trying to invent and foist on the world a new religion with its own "moral" code, so I guess there oughtn't to be any objection to this new religion dictating seating arrangements on planes.
5
Good idea. I recommend that you wear some type of middle-eastern garb, sport a full beard, and fiddle with your shoes.
6
You, sir, are a "weaver" of dreams.
3
This type of request on the part of the haredi does not have a place in our egalitarian society. No one, regardless of gender, should have to move because of someone else's religious beliefs. Asking someone to move based on race, for example, wouldn't and shouldn't be a request, let alone a reason for one. Perhaps, the haredi should travel by private plane. With increased traffic to Israel, there might be a market for regular flights.
58
I'm a Orthodox guy from Brooklyn and even though I don't take responsibility for every orthodox Jew I'll represent most, I fly a lot, and never did I ask anyone to change a seat, I have no problem sitting near a women, but I do have a problem sitting between 2 female's, yes it is a religious thing and had nothing to do with sexual desires, its just a custom that we follow and I would change my seat to any other seat available with great respect, I always try to avoid the problem but booking my seat before the flight and getting a window seat and then no need for a fuss because one lady near you isn't a problem at all, now for all the basher's here that we should be kicked off the plane, sorry but it looks like we are worth way to much for the airlines that they try to accomedate, looks like it's strictly business, crime rate by us murder rate is near zero, but unfortunately when even one Jewish fellow gets caught or makes a fuss on a plane we are all judged as a whole and not the individual, so let me ask was there anyone that a non Jew did something wrong, ever? Why not make all Americans as a community violent people, why can you charactrise the orthodox people as a union for one person or even 50 people s action why are there 2 rules for Americans and for Jewish people think about it a lot
2
That first sentence is a whopper (without cheese, of course).
Does the Torah offer us any guidance on punctuation? :)
Does the Torah offer us any guidance on punctuation? :)
1
The rate of sexual abuse and child neglect in your community is very high. It's just covered up.
There are ZERO planes mentioned in the Torah and Talmud.
There were ZERO planes in the 19th-century Pale of Settlement.
Charter your own plane or take a boat if you hate women so much.
Also, take English composition lessons!
There are ZERO planes mentioned in the Torah and Talmud.
There were ZERO planes in the 19th-century Pale of Settlement.
Charter your own plane or take a boat if you hate women so much.
Also, take English composition lessons!
5
Oh and what's that word in most all religions - something about tolerance? That love thy neighbor stuff? When did it change to "my way or the highway?" Doesn't really work so let's just try to get along.
15
Either buy two seats, charter a private plane, take a cruise with your own cabin, get a sail boat, swim, or stay home, but to do not expect I am going to reward boorish behavior and imposed religious rules that I DO NOT follow.
52
It's quite simple.....people's beliefs and practices should be accommodated as much as possible by everyone regardless of a specific situation BUT there are LIMITS to how far these accommodations can go. We ALL have to "give and take" in our daily interactions with each other and NO ONE is exempt from that. We don't live in individual bubbles and if that's a problem for someone then they need to lock themselves in their homes where they can be left to interact with themselves however they choose.
15
Personally, I'd prefer not to sit next to any religious person. But I don't make a big deal of it.
52
I can't wait to be asked to move because of my gender. So I can say no.
60
If someone - regardless of the reason - does not want to risk touching the person sitting next to them on a plane, train or other public transportation, they should buy two seats. Otherwise, deal with it like the rest of us.
46
These sexist men must stop placing the blame and the onus on the women, and place it where it belongs -- on themselves. They should go find another empty seat on the plane, train, etc., or ask another traveler to exchange seats with them. If they can't accomplish either, they can choose between their two remaining options -- mute their allegedly "moral" objections and politely sit next to the woman, or get off the bloody plane.
46
If a traveler has a religious reason for not sitting next to the opposite sex, it is that individuals responsibility to inform the airline. If the airline is unable to satisfy the prospective passengers request, the passenger needs to find another means of getting to his/her destination; or be willing to accept the fact that he/she is just going to have to get absolution for his/her sin.
23
It's odd to me that we are allowed to say, I have a religious right to refuse to sit by a woman, but if that same person said they refuse to sit by an ethnic group, they are a bigot. It's bigoted to assume that women are there to ensnare you in a sexual drama, and idiotic to hold up a flight for your own discriminatory issues. Give it a rest and avoid the arm rest.
52
First thing to point out is there are none, and I repeat no Orthodox Jewish law differences regarding men and women not having physical contact with anyone other than a spouse or close family relative.
My advice to any religious person who can't travel in mixed company is "stay off public transportation"; its not for you. A big part of being religious is being able to function in the real world, and any adult who can't do that is not ready for the outside world.
Consideration for others and not inconveniencing someone else for no reason is more important than someone choosing to go beyond the requirements of the religious law.
My advice to any religious person who can't travel in mixed company is "stay off public transportation"; its not for you. A big part of being religious is being able to function in the real world, and any adult who can't do that is not ready for the outside world.
Consideration for others and not inconveniencing someone else for no reason is more important than someone choosing to go beyond the requirements of the religious law.
32