Dr. Bernard Nathanson, co-founder of NARAL, personally performed, 5000+ abortions and became the director of the largest abortion clinic in the world. After watching a videotape of a live abortion via ultrasound, he said, “I am deeply troubled by my own increasing certainty that I had in fact presided over 60,000 deaths." Dr. Nathanson, a Jewish atheist, became a pro-life Catholic and an anti-abortion activist for the rest of his life. He produced the famous video, The Silent Scream, using one of the ultrasound video tapes of a live abortion. He also said that the general acceptance of abortion which he had so enthusiastically endorsed, had led to a cheapening of human life in general in the eyes of the public, and government.
6
Given that inflammatory language is the only thing the Brownbacks of the world seem to respect, I suggest we stop calling this anti-abortion legislation and start calling it forced-pregnancy legislation. The spirit of Roe, statutory language aside, is that a civilized society does not order a woman to carry in her womb something she does not want.
Conservatives love downsizing and layoffs, so downsize the Union. Kick Kansas out.
Conservatives love downsizing and layoffs, so downsize the Union. Kick Kansas out.
37
I do not understand how anyone can defend late-term abortions unless the woman's life--meaning life or death--is at stake. Roe v. Wade, by the way, says states can restrict or even ban abortions in the third trimester unless the woman's life or health is at stake.
2
I suggest a companion law that requires potential military service recruits to be exposed to photos and videos of the civilian victims of the US "shock and awe" bombing of Baghdad.
35
Kansas seems a pretty sad place. It may have more in common with Afghanistan than the US.
32
Why on earth do people, particularly women, continue to vote in Republicans to these state legislatures? Coverage, editorials and other media have been telling us about hundreds of bills, in dozens of states, being passed by GOP-controlled state houses that continue to eat away at our personal rights and freedoms. Aren't the Republicans the ones who are against "big government"? So how do they rationalize this continual assault on individual rights and injecting governmental laws and rules into our lives? It is hypocrisy of the worst kind.... And when are these Republicans going to figure out that making it harder or impossible to get legal abortions doesn't stop women from getting them? Hypocrisy and ignorance is a lethal combination.
23
I'd like to see some reporting on the effects of these laws on the women who now cannot access abortion. Before Roe v. Wade, the health effects were disastrous. It's a different landscape now but surely the effects have sen dire of many women. If they are not dire, then who cares? If we don't know the answer to this question, it is hard to know how upset to get.
3
I've had several abortions -- years ago, when it was illegal in all of the U.S. And, since then, I have helped a good number of women have abortions by supporting them in their decisions and finding safe places to have the procedures.
The reasons I had abortions are no one's business but my own.
If every single person on earth objects to what I choose to do to, and with, my own body (my own body, no one else's), I still will do what I want to do. Because my body is my own; I own it.
Whatever is inside a woman's body belongs to her. A fertilized egg in a woman's body is her's. It's as simple as that.
I think it's time for us to set up a woman's "railroad" around the country to provide safe passage -- and places to stay; even financial help -- for every pregnant woman who cannot afford to obtain an abortion in her hometown.
The reasons I had abortions are no one's business but my own.
If every single person on earth objects to what I choose to do to, and with, my own body (my own body, no one else's), I still will do what I want to do. Because my body is my own; I own it.
Whatever is inside a woman's body belongs to her. A fertilized egg in a woman's body is her's. It's as simple as that.
I think it's time for us to set up a woman's "railroad" around the country to provide safe passage -- and places to stay; even financial help -- for every pregnant woman who cannot afford to obtain an abortion in her hometown.
16
I doubt that anyone celebrates abortion or would call her/himself "pro abortion." How FREEDOM = Pro CHOICE= A fetus does not have the right to use a woman's body to develop unless the woman grants the fetus that permission. And NO, having sex does not equal giving permission.
7
When unwanted intercourse by a stranger, friend, classmate, spouse or family member is a thing of the past, then we can outlaw abortion.
14
Read this and the RCP article about Rand Paul's attacks on Wasserman Shultz. Now do you see the problem? There could be a reasonable middle ground, but not when one side wants to ban abortions altogether and is willing to use that position (much like the NRA) to demonize any opposing candidate or view. And there is no middle ground when politicians sell their souls to curry favor with the fringe elements.
6
Taken out in parts. Meaning dismemberment. Sounds barbaric to me but abortion has become a sacrament to many in this country. Sad.
4
What's the matter with Kansas? Brownback and his right-wing ideologues destroy Kansas' economy with tax cuts they can't afford. And like so many fools before him Brownback goes after Gays and abortion. Kansans just re-elected him. They get what they deserve.
15
So, since Kansas could not succeed in its anti-abortion crusade by murdering those associated with abortions, they now seek to outlaw the process. It is times such as this that not only try men's soul, but leave us wondering if Kansas is populated my member of the same specie and most of us?
6
"Safest" procedure for whom?
4
It seems time to find a case to present before SCOTUS that the decision of a woman's body is hers and her doctors at her discretion, that states do not have the power to legislate her and their decisions as the original Roe vs Wade stated. This creeping of male dominated state legislatures to rule over women's bodies and souls needs to come to an end and laws already passed need to be ruled unconstitutional under this decision. It is beyond my comprehension how state believe they can dictate what will be in a health insurance policy concerning women rights of their body. Good golly Miss Molly, enough is enough!
7
Perhaps it is time for the women of Kansas to go on strike, no more sexual relations until the anti-abortion laws are repealed! Then watch these macho-men squirm and run to change the laws against women's rights!
8
As is often the case, the human ego is at play in the abortion wars. Anti-abortions activists - generally speaking, not the most successful members of our society - seek to bolster their sense of self-esteem by ramming their religion down the throats of the rest of us.
12
Reality - Only approx. 1% of abortions occur at 20 weeks or later, and most of those are due to medical issues of the fetus or mother.
15
We're in an overpopulated world and in a country that aims to do the bare minimum for its child population. Primary education is cut, working parents typically get no support for child care, forget secondary education, etc., etc. Women have always sought to end pregnancies with whatever forms of medical or quasi-medical support were available. We have the benefit of modern medicine to allow women to end pregnancies with safety and dignity. It's not an easy decision - but it's one women have to make. These fundamentalist dictators want to impose their will upon the entire population - making everyone follow their religious dictates. Why will we accept this within our borders, but the Taliban doing the same thing is so abhorrent to these same people that they send off our children to war over it? Don't misunderstand, I'm not defending religious extremists anywhere - I'm as horrified by what they're trying to do in our country under the name of Christianity as I am of the atrocities committed in the name of Islam. I'm no scholar, but my limited understanding on the essence of Christ's message was love and tolerance - how does that comport with trying to impose their beliefs on everyone?
12
I don't understand the obsession with a blow by blow detail of the procedure in the bills beyond the shock value. If you included a detailed description of open heart surgery or a leg amputation for diabetes, it would sound graphic, horrific and barbaric because any surgical procedure has a little of that. However, beyond the shock value, I don't know what purpose it serves, especially given that the procedure has been found to be legal and constitutional.
11
Thank God, we're not in Kansas anymore Dorothy.
13
This is really easy to resolve. If you are a woman who is against abortion, don't have one! If you are a man against abortion, don't get a woman pregnant! EASY! And, mind your own business about other peoples lives and bodies!
28
To me, this is a deeply personal and tragic decision, but the disclosures coming out of the Gosnell Abortion Clinic were beyond disturbing so I can understand the states stepping in to prevent anything like that ever happening again.
2
The problem with the liberal view of abortion is the need to call the growing baby, a fetus, instead of what it is, a growing baby. When the issue of LGTG recently came up over Indiana's Religious Rights bill, a man was on a news show saying that saying not providing gays with pizza wasn't that Christian, and I thought well abortion isn't that Christian either. Let's call abortion what it is. America gives people the legal right to smoke themselves into lung cancer or emphysema, to eat themselves into adult onset diabetes, and to kill their unborn baby. Let's stop all the lies, and rhetoric. I an not a religious or church going person, but I hate all the denial, and politically correct language, that is used on all these issues. I believe that we are all animals, and the evolution of the species is fraught with varying degrees of truth, innate truth, and then different religious truths which seems to have a hold in most of the world, depending on what one tribe, small or large believes. Many women who cannot get a legal abortion, will try to abort themselves. My grandmother, whose husband who was a doctor, and had two brothers who were doctors said that women used to try to abort with knitting needles. Women are very emotional beings, and desperation drives their decisions rather than getting themselves on birth control in the first place, so they don't need to receive an abortion. There are few excuses for this in this day and age, and women haven't evolved much.
I tried to read what I could find in the NYTs archives about abortion and related issues from the time New York reformed its abortion laws about three years before Roe v. Wade until a few years after Roe. You can make a good case that Roe probably did not increase the number of abortions in America. Obviously, this is a tough question since most abortions prior to Roe were illegal and not reported. What is absolutely clear, however, is that there was a sharp decrease in the number of women dying from complications related to pregnancy and that can be explained best by the drop in unsafe abortions. I wish I thought Republicans who are trying so hard to make abortion more difficult, particularly for poor women, were motivated by honest moral qualms, or could be persuaded by data. I suspect is just part of an appeal to a particular class of voters who then might not recognize how badly they are being treated by Republicans on taxes and services.
7
Kansas doesn't have any large conventions or events - and will have even fewer now!!!
3
Here is the writing on the wall............
If Democrats wish to retain power by empowering women with abortion rights, then as it is, they are reducing the number of future voters that would keep them in power when women elect to abort.
The Republicans are building their base, literally.
If Democrats wish to retain power by empowering women with abortion rights, then as it is, they are reducing the number of future voters that would keep them in power when women elect to abort.
The Republicans are building their base, literally.
2
In Germany and France, abortions are typically only allowed up to about week 20. In more Catholic countries, such as Ireland or Spain, they are more stringently restricted. Are the French and Germans also religious fanatics like the Kansans then since they believe in balancing a woman's right to choose with a baby's right to live (i.e. a compromise in terms of policy)?
FYI... It doesn't require a christian fundamentalist view to believe that a late-term abortion is inhumane. A reasonable person can come to this view - and the people on this forum who callously mock such people and views that differ from their own should be ashamed that they are new front of intolerance.
FYI... It doesn't require a christian fundamentalist view to believe that a late-term abortion is inhumane. A reasonable person can come to this view - and the people on this forum who callously mock such people and views that differ from their own should be ashamed that they are new front of intolerance.
2
Abortion will cease to be a problem if a terrible disease causes 99 out of 100 women not to be able to conceive. Abortion will then be murder.
The main fact today is that life is cheap.
The main fact today is that life is cheap.
1
All religions want to grow their congregations. The fastest way to do that is to control women's fertility. We are nothing but a uterus in their eyes.
9
I can only suppose that Gov. Brownback wants to change the topic from self-inflicted budget problems to something to activate his supporters. Perhaps a suitable slogan would be "Religion is the last refuge of Brownbacks".
13
Kansas would like to eliminate or "stamp out" anything which smacks of the 21st Century and modernism in thought. They still live in the 20th Century, and believe that Dorothy and the Wizard are real.......
6
Of course, this comes as no surprise to those of us who are familiar with film history. Anything is possible in the Land of Oz. Governor Sam Brownback could well play the Scarecrow in a 2015 reprisal of this great American film, "The Wizard of Oz." One script change would be imperative: Dorothy would never want to go home to Kansas......she always wanted to retain her right to choose.
4
We all know that if men could get pregnant, abortion would be legal, safe and affordable. And daycare pre- and post-natal care would be free.
16
Boy, you would think this guy would have his hands full trying to keep his state from completely collapsing economically, than spending his time on all this folderol. But clearly he has other priorities. "Handmaid's Tale", here we come.
14
There is a population of 3000 people in kanas over 50% are women, if they can not be bothered about there rights why should I.
Chuck from ohio
Chuck from ohio
1
Plus, Brownback has been (infamously) in public office a long time. They knew exactly what they were getting.
I thought because of their conservative economics the state was going bankrupt? how are they going to pay for all the unwanted children when their supply side economics takes all of the money out of the economy and puts in into the hands of rich people and corporations?
6
"Gov. Sam Brownback, a staunch foe of a woman’s right to choose". In that case, I am a staunch foe of HIS "right" to squirt his sperm into any woman without a "certificate of permission and license" from the new "State Sperm Control Department". Folks, sperm is what causes pregnancy in women.
So stop blaming women for "being pregnant" is ridiculous, immature and insane!
So stop blaming women for "being pregnant" is ridiculous, immature and insane!
12
Will someone please show me where
in the Constitution "Abortion" is mentioned ?
It is a right invented by the Court, which has no power to invent such rights.
Thus the laws concerning abortion are left to the States.
The State of Kansas has the Constitutional Right to limit abortions.
If you don't like that - then get a Constitutional Amendment passed concerning
abortions or move to Kansas and vote against the politicians who seek to
limit abortions.
And please New York Times Editorial Board don't tack on to the end of your
Editorial: This is true especially for lower-income and other vulnerable women, who are often the first to be denied the choice they have under the Constitution.
How patronizing of you all and how untruthful since abortion is the killing of
a human being. As such, I dare the Editorial Board to run a series of pictures
of what "dilation and evacuation" that is" dilating the cervix and removing the
fetus, often in parts" actually looks like. I will gladly give you every penny I have
if you will run a video of a "Partial Birth Abortion" or "intact dilation and extraction" by which you mean the abortionist is very careful not to let the head
of the babe slide out before he sticks metal tube into the child's skull and
vacuums out the child's brain. Even the devils shudder at that procedure.
in the Constitution "Abortion" is mentioned ?
It is a right invented by the Court, which has no power to invent such rights.
Thus the laws concerning abortion are left to the States.
The State of Kansas has the Constitutional Right to limit abortions.
If you don't like that - then get a Constitutional Amendment passed concerning
abortions or move to Kansas and vote against the politicians who seek to
limit abortions.
And please New York Times Editorial Board don't tack on to the end of your
Editorial: This is true especially for lower-income and other vulnerable women, who are often the first to be denied the choice they have under the Constitution.
How patronizing of you all and how untruthful since abortion is the killing of
a human being. As such, I dare the Editorial Board to run a series of pictures
of what "dilation and evacuation" that is" dilating the cervix and removing the
fetus, often in parts" actually looks like. I will gladly give you every penny I have
if you will run a video of a "Partial Birth Abortion" or "intact dilation and extraction" by which you mean the abortionist is very careful not to let the head
of the babe slide out before he sticks metal tube into the child's skull and
vacuums out the child's brain. Even the devils shudder at that procedure.
3
The photos you mention are indeed disturbing. They are also a red herring: No one disputes that later terminations are unpleasant and jarring. But the woman has no choice in the event of complications not observable in the first trimester. Please read the physician's comment, above.
2
You certainly have a right to your opinion, even if I think your opinion about the Constitution and abortion misses the point. We enjoy many privileges and freedoms that are not spelled out in the Constitution. When the exercise of these privileges and freedoms are challenged, it becomes the job of the courts to define the extent of the right in question and then define the boundaries of the exercise of such rights. Did you know the Constitution doesn't give citizens the right to vote? It says five times the right to vote can't be denied, but never says we have the right to vote. Abortion is the exercise of one's personal liberty. When that exercise is challenged it becomes the duty of the court to define the extent to which one may exercise that personal liberty. Also, read the decisions on the rights of people to go without clothes on public beaches. Nudity is not mentioned in the Constitution, but the courts have defined the extent to which one may exercise that personal liberty. To finish, if you don't want to have an abortion, then don't have one. I respect and support your right to make such a choice, but do not tell others they cannot exercise the same right to choose as you do. You have no right to impose your will on any American just because you do not like or approve of their choice. I do not like the contents of your post, but I would fight to the death to support your right to make it. That's the difference between the right and the left in this country.
4
Have the Kansas POLITICIANS considered banning sperm HUMAN MALE SPERM? SPERM is the cause of pregnancy. Have they figured that out yet in Kansas? It is an important detail in WHY women are pregnant. It is time to legally hold males accountable for women's pregnancies. Or do these Kansas
politicians think that women just have babies from "spontaneous immaculate conception"? How does THAT work? That sounds totally insane, guys!
politicians think that women just have babies from "spontaneous immaculate conception"? How does THAT work? That sounds totally insane, guys!
10
Whether I approve or abortions or not, it is none of my business what a woman does with her body. Just like it is none of her business if I decide to employ a health procedure.
7
Most women who seek abortions are poor and non-white. The greatest obstacle for abortions to them is the lack of public funding. There is no Medicaid funding, most insurance denies funding, and 60 Democrats and President Obama agreed that the ACA would not include such funding.
2
Today Governor Brownback makes it next to impossible to have an abortion while simultaneously saying he's cutting funding for Education to cover the deficits his tax-cuts have created.
Okay, I threw in that last part about the tax cuts because he'll never say it.
Okay, I threw in that last part about the tax cuts because he'll never say it.
5
If the legislators in Kansas were really so passionately "pro-life" they'd support sex education, birth control measures, pre- and post-natal medical programs, parental leaves, after-school programs, child care support. They do not, which leads me wondering ... why not?
I think the answer is simple, but ugly. They really don't care all that much about the child. They want to punish the mother. In their minds an unwanted pregnancy means that the woman had sex for pleasure and not for the specific purpose of procreation. This, they see this as a fundamental flaw, a sin for which the punishment shall be to carry to term an unwanted child and to be forever responsible for that child.
Strip away all the flimsy rhetorical covers and the anti-abortion movement is seen as having little to do with the sanctity of life. It is mostly about punishing a woman for f***ing for fun.
I think the answer is simple, but ugly. They really don't care all that much about the child. They want to punish the mother. In their minds an unwanted pregnancy means that the woman had sex for pleasure and not for the specific purpose of procreation. This, they see this as a fundamental flaw, a sin for which the punishment shall be to carry to term an unwanted child and to be forever responsible for that child.
Strip away all the flimsy rhetorical covers and the anti-abortion movement is seen as having little to do with the sanctity of life. It is mostly about punishing a woman for f***ing for fun.
15
"The law’s language aims for maximum shock value, describing 'clamps, grasping forceps, tongs, scissors' or other instruments that 'slice, crush or grasp a portion of the unborn child’s body in order to cut or rip it off.'
I find it disturbing that this editorial is more concerned with the tone of the above language than the substance of it. The Editorial Board does not dispute that clamps, forceps, and scissors are used to dismember a human body. Instead the editorial seems to argue that we would be better informed if the language of the bill glossed over any discomforting facts about the procedure by describing the event in clinical, euphemistic terms.
I find it disturbing that this editorial is more concerned with the tone of the above language than the substance of it. The Editorial Board does not dispute that clamps, forceps, and scissors are used to dismember a human body. Instead the editorial seems to argue that we would be better informed if the language of the bill glossed over any discomforting facts about the procedure by describing the event in clinical, euphemistic terms.
5
Let me get this straight....the Brownbacks of the world want to use the government to restrict a women's choice, tell fellow American's who they can marry, what they can ingest, and to not critically think (common core)......involve the government in our social lives. But when it comes to the economy, they want the government off our backs.....condoning poverty, being comfortable with an uneven distribution of wealth, endorsing an elitist educational system, etc.. so arrogant and hypocritical. This faction of the GOP makes me sick to my stomach.
10
Nothing new here. Republicans, conservatives, religiosos, dark ages, and extreme cranks---social cowards afraid of the future leading the charge into the sixteenth century. Voters of Kansas, good luck with that.
9
Kansas should not do that.
1
Just a bunch of old men telling women what to do.
11
More accurately, "Kansas Tries to Stamp Out Legal Abortion".
It will still happen. But it will be illegal, dangerous, and life-threatening to women.
It will still happen. But it will be illegal, dangerous, and life-threatening to women.
6
The only place for miles around the state of Kansas where sanity prevails is Kansas City, Missouri. I don't know the Missouri abortion laws, but K.C. has always been a haven for many enlightened refugees from Kansas.
1
Folks, if you're not horrified and appalled by wave after wave of these anti-woman, anti-poor, anti-minority, anti-gay, anti-environment, anti-science policies coming from congress and elsewhere, you're not paying attention. Sam Brownback is but one example of extremism in its worst form. The modern-day Republican Party, as exemplified by the ultra-conservatives occupying state houses and congressional districts in red states across the country, constitutes a clear and present danger to the future of the United States. These people should be repelled and defeated at every possible turn.
9
Poor Dorothy would run back into the twister so she could say with great relief, "I don't think I'm in Kansas anymore."
2
Imagine if the uterus were a gun. All of the legislation that would aimed at protecting it's freedom.
7
If all these CongressMEN are so worried about abortion, why don't they vote to provide FREE vasectomies to all male state residents. Also these CongressMEN could provide funding for research on MALE contraceptives. That would help reduce accidents with a very small male effort compared to a woman's 9 month life threatening pregnancy. Come on guys, time to step up and be a real man!
6
Perhaps it would be better if women would simply stay home, clean the house, cook, do the laundry, have a full-term baby every year or so, and learn to honor the men in their lives who have made this life of theirs so possible.
Perhaps men would be happy not having to talk to women unless to ask for wrinkle-free ironing, more meat and potatoes at dinner, to make sure the kids aren't too noisy, be better at vacummng and all between those pesky pregnancies.
Women would come to understand their place in the world and men wouldn't have to worry they, women, would talk back or question their manly authority.
That should make Kansas men truly feel their due manliness and righteous place in the world - of Kansas.
Perhaps men would be happy not having to talk to women unless to ask for wrinkle-free ironing, more meat and potatoes at dinner, to make sure the kids aren't too noisy, be better at vacummng and all between those pesky pregnancies.
Women would come to understand their place in the world and men wouldn't have to worry they, women, would talk back or question their manly authority.
That should make Kansas men truly feel their due manliness and righteous place in the world - of Kansas.
3
This is awful. Legislating how to practice Medicine is wrong. Do Brownback and the legislature have a medical license and malpractice insurance?
8
Ah, time once again to donate online to Planned Parenthood. This time, I donated to Planned Parenthood of Kansas & Mid-Missouri. https://secure.ppaction.org/site/Donation2?df_id=12833&12833.donatio... Every time I read about one of these infuriating laws, I make another donation.
10
We should do everything possible to protect an unborn child up to the moment of birth.
2
These issues (abortion, race relations, gay rights) just keep going around in circles. Progress is made in one place and then reactionary laws are passed in another. Let's not forget that these "lawmakers" are elected by the populace, my point being that our country is HOPELESSLY divided into 2 almost equal parts. We have progressives dominating the coasts, reactionaries dictating policy in the south, and a mixture in the midsection of our country. It's frustrating to constantly be exposed to these never-ending stories. The bottom line is that it is a fact we must accept that we will never have agreement on these matters. One side will win a battle one day and lose one the next. It just goes on and on.....time for a cocktail now, I think.
3
"What's The Matter With Kansas?"
Now we know. Everything. Could it be something in the water?
Now we know. Everything. Could it be something in the water?
6
Kansas is, in so many ways, the most insane state in the nation. Cutting taxes to the point where essential services cannot be maintained, eliminating any and all gun requirements, and now this. I'm with Dorothy Gale (who, in the original Oz books, left for Oz and brought Uncle Henry and Aunt Em along) -- I don't want to be in Kansas anymore.
5
After driving his State into fiscal bankruptcy, Sam Brownback is nor driving women into back alleys to be butchered by incompetent hacks who lurk in the shadows, poised to replace trained medical professionals who can competently fulfill a woman's right to choose her own reproductive destiny.
What a model for leadership. Everyone loses. Madness wins.
What a model for leadership. Everyone loses. Madness wins.
10
Everything is no longer up to date in Kansas City.
2
The Kansas electorate voted for these guys and now they have to live with them. Next election, they can vote them out.
1
From the state that allows you to carry concealed weapons without a permit. So it's okay to carry murder weapons, but it's deemed murder if a woman chooses to terminate a pregnancy early. Why would anyone in their right mind want to live in this state?
8
In Canada, we do not have any law about abortion. Two years ago the conservative ( and I repeat conservative) government of Canada said that they will keep it as it is: no law about abortion. And this is the way it should be. Abortion have to be decided between the women and her doctor. Therefore i am opposed to the fact that the religion of one should be the law for the other. And as Bary Goldwater (a conservative) said: "The State has no business in the bedroom".
7
Sam Brownback... Have you along with the rest of your anti-abortion party started adopting those children born yet not wanted...
6
Yes, where is Silicon Valley on this? Lately they're throwing their weight around. I'd love to see put pressure on the state of Kansas.
2
There is more to life than just being born - that's just the beginning - it takes a lot of investment to bring up a child. Repubs have clearly shown that all they care is birth and not about life - so basically these people are pro-birth, not pro-life
But it is amazing to see such laws being passed with such impunity - women are the majority in this country and yet they are taking a beating. An interesting observation - in India amongst Hindus the bride's family pays a dowry, but amongst muslims it is the groom who pays the dowry. But guess who suffers in both cases? The woman! How is it that even when the situation is reversed the same person suffers? Easy - the weaker person always suffers. As long as woman let the men bully them around they will remain weak and will suffer
But it is amazing to see such laws being passed with such impunity - women are the majority in this country and yet they are taking a beating. An interesting observation - in India amongst Hindus the bride's family pays a dowry, but amongst muslims it is the groom who pays the dowry. But guess who suffers in both cases? The woman! How is it that even when the situation is reversed the same person suffers? Easy - the weaker person always suffers. As long as woman let the men bully them around they will remain weak and will suffer
5
The Republican war on woman continues.
10
Once the Ultra conservative religious right wins on abortion, they will then turn that belief and determination and money, to eliminating access to birth control. They already are accomplishing it, when they shut down Planned Parenthood clinics due to abortion, which can be the only source of birth control to the community. I
8
After about thirty years of deep thought on the subject of abortion, I have come to realize that without adhering to the Supreme Court ruling that legalized abortion, we are a nation in rage over it.
Apart from the legal issues involved, I address the social ideas surrounding abortion for women to consider while still absolutely adhering to their independence and personal freedom. Consider the fact that generations of humanity have come and gone and young women who are faced with a pregnancy will be the best and final judge of their lovers suitability as a father and role model for a newborn. Of course only the woman would know the right decision, but consider this; like all the generations of history, the mature gave rise to the young and all grew older until it was the younger who cared for the older in their years of need. Today's child is your future caring family whether you marry your mate or not. Maybe single motherhood isn't so bad after all.
Apart from the legal issues involved, I address the social ideas surrounding abortion for women to consider while still absolutely adhering to their independence and personal freedom. Consider the fact that generations of humanity have come and gone and young women who are faced with a pregnancy will be the best and final judge of their lovers suitability as a father and role model for a newborn. Of course only the woman would know the right decision, but consider this; like all the generations of history, the mature gave rise to the young and all grew older until it was the younger who cared for the older in their years of need. Today's child is your future caring family whether you marry your mate or not. Maybe single motherhood isn't so bad after all.
How can the Republicans love unborn people while hating so many who are already alive?
15
Sam Brownback was not an unknown quantity when he ran for governor. He was on the conservative A-list in Congress. Kansans elected him and suffered all the risks and humiliation of a wrecked economy, bad schools, bad credit and bad publicity. Notwithstanding, the governor won re-election over the objections of much of his own party. True to form, good democrats still identify with the underdog and try to alleviate the crises elected by the majority.
1
This is a fight for America's younger women now. If this country is going to slip back into the grip of the tyrannical right a la the 1950s, then I guess the young people are going to have to push back - again. But in a larger context, this is also very much a problem of the current era in that it's just one more way in which the socioeconomic divide grows ever larger. Rich women will always be able to get abortions; it's the poor and the middle class who have the most to lose at the hands of wretches like Sam Brownback.
11
It is time for large corporations and organizations to pull out of states like Kansas or at least threaten to pull out. This worked with the so-called Religious Freedom Acts in Indiana and Arkansas, and it will work in this situation, too.
2
It seems inexplicable but quite clear that Kansas Republicans either do not understand that their policies regarding abortion and concealed weapons present a great danger to themselves, their families (particularly the women) and other loved ones or are convinced that they personally can escape the dangers.
1
In order to gain back some support he lost by his failed fiscal policies, Brownback is pushing these radical anti-abortion bills for his social conservative supporters. As usual, the lower economic folks are paying for his tax cuts for the rich and the same folks won't be able to travel out-of-state for an abortion. It's what Republicans say "What's Right With Kansas".
5
Wars kill innocent victims too. Why don't "Right to Life" advocates work to get legislation passed banning wars? Blown up bodies aren't a pretty sight either but we are usually spared from viewing them. An innocent war victim is just as dead as an aborted fetus. We make a woman a criminal for getting an abortion, while we consider the innocent victims killed in war...collateral damage.
5
The key question is: who is voting for Brownback and the Republicans in the Kansas State Legislature? The political question -- setting aside the ethical, moral and religious questions -- is one of power and ideology. If women in Kansas and Oklahoma are voting for these people they are making a choice that can't be undone by NYTimes editorials or outside supporters of women's personal choices. The US Constitution, however, does protect the individual, but in this case, unless women and men who believe in choice as the foundation of freedom, act politically, revanchists, like Brownback will have their way. As Joe Hill once said, "don't mourn; organize."
3
Genuine concern for the unwanted unborn, would mean paying for the best possible coerced (denying all other options) gestation--a form of forced labor, reproductive slavery.
Then--promising to pay for the best possible childhood--nutrition, education and so on--continuing through university.
Refusal to do so proves they don't really care about those fetuses. They merely want to punish the girls for "fornication." Motherhood--as punishment for sex play! Is there a more idiotic and disgusting human perversion?
Besides--no Biblical principle can be cited as reason for this--assuming that would be a reason. This is latter day Christianity--concocted by some latter day prohibitionists.
And it is absurd to cite "right to life" (as opposed to a duty to gestate) as a reason. Rights are protected options to do or omit. They presume the ability to chose. Fetuses have no such ability--no more than trees or rocks. They really mean woman have duties to gestate.
The next step is duty to conceive--at the will of some politicians. Then ownership an control of women's bodies would be complete--and totalitarian.
Then--promising to pay for the best possible childhood--nutrition, education and so on--continuing through university.
Refusal to do so proves they don't really care about those fetuses. They merely want to punish the girls for "fornication." Motherhood--as punishment for sex play! Is there a more idiotic and disgusting human perversion?
Besides--no Biblical principle can be cited as reason for this--assuming that would be a reason. This is latter day Christianity--concocted by some latter day prohibitionists.
And it is absurd to cite "right to life" (as opposed to a duty to gestate) as a reason. Rights are protected options to do or omit. They presume the ability to chose. Fetuses have no such ability--no more than trees or rocks. They really mean woman have duties to gestate.
The next step is duty to conceive--at the will of some politicians. Then ownership an control of women's bodies would be complete--and totalitarian.
10
It is more than a bit ironic that these outrageous actions, designed to prevent women from exercising their Constitutional right to an abortion, are being taken by the very people who at every turn trumpet the sanctity of the Constitution as it relates to life in America. These self-righteous zealots also work endlessly to demolish the very programs that benefit infants, young children and mothers. They're obsessed with doing everything in their power to make sure children are brought into this world, at which point their concern ceases to exist.
8
Let's be clear on this. This is not about the rights of the unborn fetus, that is the cloak behind which these men are hiding. Do not forget this is the state that is okay with you carrying concealed weapons (murder weapons) without a permit. No, this is about stripping away a woman's right to choose. They want to disarmer a woman's right to navigate her life, and are doing it anyway they can, this being a provocative issue. It's a portal through to control women's lives, keep us in our place. Our bodies should be outside legislative dictum. If people can carry concealed weapons and have the means to kill at any time, then a conscious and difficult decision of a woman to carry a pregnancy to term should be her choice and her choice alone.
9
The board writes: “the Supreme Court has repeatedly upheld the right of a woman to terminate her pregnancy before the fetus is viable outside the womb, or at about 24 weeks.” Yet, clicking on the link provided, it reads “The decision gave a woman total autonomy over the pregnancy during the FIRST TRIMESTER -- and defined different levels of state interest for the second and third trimesters.
1
Good Grief! Just stop legislating women's bodies!!!! Doesn't Kansas have more pressing problems? How about the huge deficit they are running?
8
We're getting to the point where religious extremists have taken over the Republican party and are getting elected to run large parts of this country. If you believe your religion prohibits abortion, fine. Just don't tell me that I can't have one if I need it. That would be like a vegetarian legislature passing laws curtailing the consumption of meat in their state. People won't stop eating meat, they'll just get it illegally.
9
Aren't these the same people who rejected and continue to reject the ACA because it injects government into healthcare and interferes with the doctor-patient relationship?
Apparently, that's only bad if there's a possibility it might be men's health care that is interfered with. With women, all bets are off.
Hypocrites.
Apparently, that's only bad if there's a possibility it might be men's health care that is interfered with. With women, all bets are off.
Hypocrites.
10
I had a conversation about abortion with an acquaintance who, having already had her abortions, is now pro life. Hers weren't medical abortions, they were a personal choice that she now regrets.
My abortion was medical. My insurance didn't cover it because my Texas based employer didn't approve. I was advised that because of my medical condition I would require a full operating suite with a neurosurgeon standing by in case intervention was required. Needless to say, I didn't have the money so my abortion was not conducted under the circumstances that would have made it a safe procedure for me.
I was on the pill. My anticonvulsant interfered with my form of birth control, something that I did not anticipate. My doctors also didn't anticipate it. They seemed to view me from the neck up instead of as a whole woman. The fetus was non viable and could cost me my life.
Every time people like my acquaintance pass judgement on a woman exercising her choice, they make it 100 times worse for women who NEED the procedure, who are carrying a non viable fetus. Every time anyone judges her, they judge me too.
My abortion was medical. My insurance didn't cover it because my Texas based employer didn't approve. I was advised that because of my medical condition I would require a full operating suite with a neurosurgeon standing by in case intervention was required. Needless to say, I didn't have the money so my abortion was not conducted under the circumstances that would have made it a safe procedure for me.
I was on the pill. My anticonvulsant interfered with my form of birth control, something that I did not anticipate. My doctors also didn't anticipate it. They seemed to view me from the neck up instead of as a whole woman. The fetus was non viable and could cost me my life.
Every time people like my acquaintance pass judgement on a woman exercising her choice, they make it 100 times worse for women who NEED the procedure, who are carrying a non viable fetus. Every time anyone judges her, they judge me too.
7
If men could become pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament.
5
I propose a constitutional amendment: Congress shall pass no law interfering or restricting with any medical procedure deemed appropriate by a qualified Medical professional
6
“Kansas has become ground zero in the war to criminalize all abortions, and in the process to remove a woman’s ability to control what happens in her own body.” So writes the board.
I've never understood why, to pro-choice advocates, the woman’s body matters so much, and the unborn child’s body matters so little.
I've never understood why, to pro-choice advocates, the woman’s body matters so much, and the unborn child’s body matters so little.
3
If men could get pregnant, abortion would be safe, legal, and covered by insurance.
5
OK! Now we have a great increase in unwanted children. Is Brownback et al willing to appropriate bib bucks for pregnancy care? delivery? Child care? Medical costs? food? or for orphanages for those many children abandoned? How about the known increase in crime and drug use associated with unwanted children? What would Jesus do Kansas?
3
Kansas is running an experiment: How unfriendly a state government can anybody arrange?
How about cutting tax revenues to the point where the state can't provide needed services?
How about intruding in people's personal life decisions when the net effect on the state (or those who support the intrusion) is zero either way?
But you right wing conservatives in Kansas go ahead and run your experiment.
Just don't ask the rest of us Americans to bail you out when it crashes and burns.
How about cutting tax revenues to the point where the state can't provide needed services?
How about intruding in people's personal life decisions when the net effect on the state (or those who support the intrusion) is zero either way?
But you right wing conservatives in Kansas go ahead and run your experiment.
Just don't ask the rest of us Americans to bail you out when it crashes and burns.
8
We citizens of the "good old boy's" USA ought to be quite used to this perennial trick played on us by right-leaning politicians who are striving to change the topic of why they are unfit for public office.
All they are saying is "don't look at us, our fatteries and our money-grubbing, look at these murderers, who are our mothers, sisters and lovers, instead!"
All they are saying is "don't look at us, our fatteries and our money-grubbing, look at these murderers, who are our mothers, sisters and lovers, instead!"
4
Kansas wants unwanted children born, so they can go hungry from food stamp cuts, and stay uneducated because of tax cuts to the rich, they can't afford to even keep their schools open an entire term. Kansas, carry the torch of Fred Phelps into their miserable future. I don't think we're in Kansas anymore-thank god. If states are suppose to be laboratories, where as they can experiment with new legislation, Kansas has been an utter failure under Brownback.
8
Republicans continue their war against women's rights unabated. Women have been silent for too long. They need to have their voices heard and support a women's right to a safe and available reproductive services without the Republican Party and their right wing evagenlical followers trying to push this country back in time. Religion contnues to play a far too important role in in compromising our constitutional freedoms and democractic principles in general. To all voters: Please do not vote Republican in 2016. Please send a message that the Republican Party is the "stupid" party once and for all.
7
Women have been silent - are you kidding me? one out of every 5 postings on this site is a feminist rant which slanders men or suggests men have no right to even weigh in on the issue because they are not women. Go have a read.
Did you know that even the 'liberal' societies of Western Europe, restrict a women's right to choose an abortion generally after the first trimester. After that it is generally considered inhumane, unless the mother's life is in danger. Is this also 'stupid' as you say? No, actually it is balanced. Get off the extremist bandwagon my man.
Did you know that even the 'liberal' societies of Western Europe, restrict a women's right to choose an abortion generally after the first trimester. After that it is generally considered inhumane, unless the mother's life is in danger. Is this also 'stupid' as you say? No, actually it is balanced. Get off the extremist bandwagon my man.
What I don't understand is the mind set of voters who support legislators that cut the funding to their schools and to their roads and to their health care etc. because they don't want to pay taxes, although most of these states get back from Washington more money than they send in taxes.
In this case, women apparently voted into office men legislators who support impregnators but couldn't care less about those who get pregnant (whatever the circumstance) nor about the dangers of carrying a pregnancy (which there are many) nor finally, about the child who may be the consequence of this unwanted pregnancy. What is wrong with the women (and men) of these right wing states that they cannot see the many ways in which the GOP philosophy undercuts their freedom as individuals at the same time that it acts to deprive their families of resources?
There is a certain hubris in believing that YOU will never need the help of others -- for anything, so it's reasonable to not make it available to anyone. (We don't see citizens in Kansas praising individual efforts to get out from under debris when their cities are destroyed by tornadoes. But if a tornado is costly, schooling or an unwanted pregnancy destroying your family, well hey, that's "your problem. Tough luck."). That hubris is not part of Christian belief.
Is it that difficult to realize that these decisions are about advantaging the bottom line of the super rich and throwing your middle class lives overboard?
In this case, women apparently voted into office men legislators who support impregnators but couldn't care less about those who get pregnant (whatever the circumstance) nor about the dangers of carrying a pregnancy (which there are many) nor finally, about the child who may be the consequence of this unwanted pregnancy. What is wrong with the women (and men) of these right wing states that they cannot see the many ways in which the GOP philosophy undercuts their freedom as individuals at the same time that it acts to deprive their families of resources?
There is a certain hubris in believing that YOU will never need the help of others -- for anything, so it's reasonable to not make it available to anyone. (We don't see citizens in Kansas praising individual efforts to get out from under debris when their cities are destroyed by tornadoes. But if a tornado is costly, schooling or an unwanted pregnancy destroying your family, well hey, that's "your problem. Tough luck."). That hubris is not part of Christian belief.
Is it that difficult to realize that these decisions are about advantaging the bottom line of the super rich and throwing your middle class lives overboard?
4
The news I hear from Kansas is these attacks on woman rights and their recent vicious attacks on the poor by restricting funding. The right hand in Kansas is bringing all these social issues while the left hand is trying hard to divert attention from the dire financial conditions and budget deficits in Kansas. This is a polarity well discussed before. There is nothing sincere in these social issues brought up by the politicians except to make us look in the wrong direction.
2
Kansas may be trying to "stamp out" abortion, but promoting abortion up to the hour of birth, as women's rights groups do, is sick and reprehensible. Best not not judge, lest you be judged.
2
Wouldn't it be nice if both sides met in the middle and got together to promote contraception and sex education? Of course that won't happen because it makes too much sense and they'd lose a wedge issue with voters. The media doesn't want this to happen either because then there's no conflict or controversy to report.
We're being played people, wake up and do something about it.
We're being played people, wake up and do something about it.
1
How is changing the time limit for abortion upon request to 20 weeks from the 26 weeks of Roe vs. Wade attempting to stamp out abortion? I believe that Roe does not necessarily represent the best solution possible balance of the rights of the mother and the fetus/baby, and that hyperbolic arguments or descriptions of the current debate don't in the long term serve anyone well.
3
It's 2015 and unfortunately, abortion, under the disguised of compassion, thanks to the vagueness of Roe v. Wade and the limitation of the 2-party system, is still up for grabs and recently even reinforced with the 'the conscience clause' of Obamacare.
1
Kansas is trying to stamp out the Renaissance, the Enlightenment, the Industrial Revolution and the Scientific Revolution including the theories of Relativity, Quantum Mechanics and Evolution.
If God intended that women be equal then She would have made Eve first in Her own image.
If God intended that women be equal then She would have made Eve first in Her own image.
1
To be clear, these laws do little to impede the ability of higher income women to obtain an abortion other than to add a measure of inconvenience and expense by forcing them to travel out-of-state. It is lower income and poor women who are primarily impacted. And if they have their babies, as the authors of these intrusive laws clearly want, who will help them to give their children a decent life when they are born in to poverty? The Republican lawmakers who are the driving force behind these laws and who use every opportunity to cut such government programs? The mostly conservative states who provide minimal assistance to their poorest residents and who have, in most cases, abysmal records of providing health coverage to children?
5
"Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore."
Not exactly sure how Toto felt, but I think most women would breathe a sigh of relief knowing they were far away from Sam Brownback and his misogynist, backward looking state.
Not exactly sure how Toto felt, but I think most women would breathe a sigh of relief knowing they were far away from Sam Brownback and his misogynist, backward looking state.
4
So it's misogyny now to believe that the rights of a woman to abort her baby should not be balanced with the right of the baby to live? Give me a break.
Are Germany and France also misogynist and backward, then, given they only allow abortion in the first trimester? No, actually Susan that is what a balanced policy on this matter actually looks like. Get a clue.
Are Germany and France also misogynist and backward, then, given they only allow abortion in the first trimester? No, actually Susan that is what a balanced policy on this matter actually looks like. Get a clue.
1. We get the government we deserve. What percentage of people against this type of measure voted? You can bet that the anti-abortion groups turned out their bases on election day.
2. Its not true to say that these sorts of laws are pushed only by men. KS for example has a very loud anti-abortion faction that counts women amongst its most active members. What drives these women? Where do their views originate? It's lazy thinking to pin it all on men like Brownback, even if he is a big juicy target.
2. Its not true to say that these sorts of laws are pushed only by men. KS for example has a very loud anti-abortion faction that counts women amongst its most active members. What drives these women? Where do their views originate? It's lazy thinking to pin it all on men like Brownback, even if he is a big juicy target.
2
Question: Is Abortion mentioned the in Constitution ?
Answer: No.
Therefore it is left up to the States to regulate Abortions as they see fit.
Answer: No.
Therefore it is left up to the States to regulate Abortions as they see fit.
1
But murder is!
So, if one of the confederate debtor states reinstitutes slavery using your state's rights argument are they within their rights?
2
Except if there's an overriding federal protection of this right. This is an EXTREMELY basic Constitutional issue that was settled definitively with the passage of the 14th Amendment.
3
Again, what kind of world do Republicans really want. It's certainly un-American. How many Kansas women legislators were involved in writing these laws?
31
In New Mexico a viable child can be aborted right through the final weeks of pregnancy. A documentary followed 2 female California abortionists who fly to Albuquerque on alternate weeks to do abortions that are outlawed even by abortion-happy California. So your mystification in the Land of Enchantment about a nearby state that advocates on behalf of the viable child is understandable.
As a Kansan most of my 62 years of life (which don't include the 9 months inside my mother's body), I'm finding the state I once loved becoming a nightmare. As we know from history, de facto one-party rule invariably becomes a nightmare for the people. I just didn't expect it here.
53
How many children are alive today because their mother couldn't find an abortionist?
3
How many women have died because a LEGAL and CONSTITUTIONALLY PROTECTED medical procedure was not available to them?
How many of the unwanted children in this world are YOU taking care of? You fetus fetishists are an embarrassment.
How many of the unwanted children in this world are YOU taking care of? You fetus fetishists are an embarrassment.
1
James Tarsney: And how many of these children live on welfare after being abandoned by their fathers????
EW
EW
1
And how many of those unwanted kids have you and the Mrs. adopted Jimmy?
None, is it?!
Shocker!
None, is it?!
Shocker!
3
We get the government we deserve. Is is possible that Kansas women voters, and those voters that they influence, either agree with the policy, or didn't turn out to vote and influence candidates against this policy?
Out on the liberal coasts, these restrictions seem medieval and misogynistic to us, but there are a lot of deeply religious female voters in KS who are dead set against abortion. They vote.
Out on the liberal coasts, these restrictions seem medieval and misogynistic to us, but there are a lot of deeply religious female voters in KS who are dead set against abortion. They vote.
1
You're right and if Democrats were smart they would reach out to these women and point out that Democrats are the ones who want to make sure they have contraception, a fair wage, a safe clean environment for their families etc.
Unfortunately all Democrats seem to do is tell these women that they're stupid.
Unfortunately all Democrats seem to do is tell these women that they're stupid.
1
I agree there seem to be very different cultures in different parts of the U.S.
While I generally believe in a person's right to make this life altering decision, an abortion after 20 weeks is killing a viable human being. Two of my sisters were born in their 5th months. Yes, they were premies but went on to become healthy women and grandmothers. So unless the child poses a threat to the life of the mother or itself, then terminating a baby which can live on its own outside the womb, is wrong. Besides, I'd know way before the 3rd month if I was pregnant and sort out a decision.
4
As long as something is inside my body, affecting my life and my health, I should be free to manage it or remove it as I see fit. That applies no matter whether the thing is an inflamed gallbladder, a tumor, or a fetus.
The READERS COMMENTS focus compassionately on the real issues for women and the difficult and emotionally challenging choices they must make for their own well being and the fate of their pregnancies and their child's viability if delivered.
Regrettably, these are NOT the 'real' issues. For Sam Brownback and other politicians of his ilk all that matters is political ambition. He and his cohort of right wing fanatics cynically exploit religious bigotry and antifeminism to garner votes.
Their purpose is to serve the interests of well heeled supporters who care not a wit about women or their children. They are unwilling to campaign for the health and well being of children and their education and development into healthy and competent adults able to meaningfully participate in responsible lives in vibrant communities.
Politicians who voice the mantras of the 'religious right' are fraudulent politicians who pose as men of principle but in fact serve the financial interests of the Koch Bros and their entitled brethren.
Regrettably, these are NOT the 'real' issues. For Sam Brownback and other politicians of his ilk all that matters is political ambition. He and his cohort of right wing fanatics cynically exploit religious bigotry and antifeminism to garner votes.
Their purpose is to serve the interests of well heeled supporters who care not a wit about women or their children. They are unwilling to campaign for the health and well being of children and their education and development into healthy and competent adults able to meaningfully participate in responsible lives in vibrant communities.
Politicians who voice the mantras of the 'religious right' are fraudulent politicians who pose as men of principle but in fact serve the financial interests of the Koch Bros and their entitled brethren.
4
The economy of Kansas is in ruins. The budgets for everything, including education and social services that, say, a young mother and her newborn child might need to reasonably survive, have been slashed to nothing, all to provide more tax breaks for the wealthy. Mullah Brownback claims to be a "Christian," so perhaps he ought to have some humility (supposedly a Christian tenet), take a good, long look in the mirror and and reflect on the wreckage of his state before interfering with matters best left to a woman and her doctor. The man is a disgrace to the religion he claims to so fervently follow.
5
Men just can't seem to resist playing with other people's lives! In this case it's beyond 'me big man, you little women, shut up and do what I tell you to do'. It's all that plus 'this is what my particular god wants of you'. Isn't amazing how may gods are giving direction to so many men about conception and children! Too bad a lot of those receiving those messages aren't gettin told that they should then help raise the baby to adulthood once the mother is forced to carry it to term. Or is it more that men fear women due to a man's need for them sexually and telling them to carry a fetus to term makes them feel like a manly man again? Men, this is a women's choice, stay out of it and especially stay out of her womb!
4
It is interesting that the same party that espouses "less government intrusion" in the life of the individual is the very same party that attacks the right of a doctor to make judgements concerning a patient's health, or the right of a woman do be the determining factor in matters of her own body. The same applies to attacks on homosexuality. Are you afraid of socialists? They are already here, in the guise of morally superior conservatives. They aren't conservatives at all, their radical agenda is an affront to anyone who values liberty.
4
They aren't socialists they are the Taliban.
1
Republicans are annoying. They couch every issue in terms of freedom but treat women like inmates. If I were a woman in Kansas, I would seriously consider moving to a more liberal state.
4
Since the American public gave the GOP control of the Senate as part of the biggest Midterm win since 1932 (!) in November, America hopes to be annoyed even more by the plain-speaking Republicans. "73% of those polled say America is on the wrong track," network news reported the week of the Midterms. Can you lay it off to "Fox News?"
Choosing abortion is a somber difficult decision for most that often requires a grieving process. However, bringing either a deformed or another unwanted uncared for person into the world can be much worse leading to dire consequences down the road. Prisons are filled with un nurtured humans--and most likely even terrorist groups like ISIS. Thus looking at abortion from a broader human need/societal perspective, it could rightly be considered an act of mercy for which a woman needs our support; not laws that criminalize.
5
You present the single best argument against abortion there is. Demented superior humans like you who see it as a duty to cull the herd.
If you want to read a novel that goes into this question withj a lot of depth, read Richard North Patterson's "Protect and Defend" As John Dean wrote:
"If readers were impressed with Patterson's research for his earlier novels, they will be dazzled by the depth of knowledge underlying, and displayed in, this new book. His background as a trial attorney shines in the litigation story. His research of the medical and legal issues of late-term abortion feels encyclopedic. His political acumen is both terrific and explainable. He had eminent help, which he effectively employed."
"If readers were impressed with Patterson's research for his earlier novels, they will be dazzled by the depth of knowledge underlying, and displayed in, this new book. His background as a trial attorney shines in the litigation story. His research of the medical and legal issues of late-term abortion feels encyclopedic. His political acumen is both terrific and explainable. He had eminent help, which he effectively employed."
Roe v. Wade gives the states the right to regulate abortions for various purposes. But when a state passes restrictions designed not to protect the woman or the fetus but to make abortions less available it violates the fundamental protections established by Roe v. Wade. Kansas law that has a clear anti-abortion purpose should be struck down by the courts.
5
What's Sam's plan for this unwanted child after birth?
8
Unwanted child? Unwanted by everyone else, perhaps, except it.
The inconsistency is clear: many of the same people whose concept of religious freedom permits individual acts to exercise that freedom in actual acts (of bigotry) deny women the exercise of the SCOTUS guarantee of limited freedom of choice in matters of abortion. At some point, SCOTUS is going to have to confront what "exercise" means for a freedom to exist in fact, not merely in increasingly empty verbal formulations.
One problem with the SCOTUS Roe v Wade decision is that any limitations on a woman's exercise of choice creates a slippery slope to other limitations. All of the various state restrictions demonstrate just how slippery that slope is, including legislation by politicians imposing medical decisions properly left to patient and doctor.
Another problem with that decision is its implicit Christian definition of life (call it "viability," if you wish); it is a definition contrary to the Jewish definition of life, believed to begin at breach. Most women who support a woman's right to choose would likely prefer a Jewish definition of life and to be allowed to decide for themselves at what point in their pregnancy they wish to have an abortion.
A dramatic inconsistency is that no court recognizes the exercise of the freedom of religion to allow Jewish women to make any choice about abortion according to the dictates of their faith and conscience. The "base" who support Israel would not likely support the religious freedom of Jews to exercise this tenet of faith.
One problem with the SCOTUS Roe v Wade decision is that any limitations on a woman's exercise of choice creates a slippery slope to other limitations. All of the various state restrictions demonstrate just how slippery that slope is, including legislation by politicians imposing medical decisions properly left to patient and doctor.
Another problem with that decision is its implicit Christian definition of life (call it "viability," if you wish); it is a definition contrary to the Jewish definition of life, believed to begin at breach. Most women who support a woman's right to choose would likely prefer a Jewish definition of life and to be allowed to decide for themselves at what point in their pregnancy they wish to have an abortion.
A dramatic inconsistency is that no court recognizes the exercise of the freedom of religion to allow Jewish women to make any choice about abortion according to the dictates of their faith and conscience. The "base" who support Israel would not likely support the religious freedom of Jews to exercise this tenet of faith.
5
No doubt these men playing doctor with women's lives and bodies are the same people who claim they "aren't scientist" when it comes to climate change. May I suggest they apply their minds to learning a lot more about the science of climate change so they can past informed legislation that helps us all while abstaining from their truly clueless pursuit of controlling women.
Kansas, Kansas in pursuit of "saving" some imaginary soul, you lost your mind. Why anyone capable of moving would live in that benighted patch of earth is beyond me. After it goes bankrupt, can we sell it to China?
Kansas, Kansas in pursuit of "saving" some imaginary soul, you lost your mind. Why anyone capable of moving would live in that benighted patch of earth is beyond me. After it goes bankrupt, can we sell it to China?
7
Give me a break Nora. You know that this is not about men wanting to control women. The men who support at least some restrictions on a women's right to choose a late-term abortion support it regardless of whether the fetus is male or female. The issue is they believe it is immoral to kill a person, even if that person is located 'inside' another person. That is the issue. And plenty of educated fair-minded people can come to the conclusion that some restriction is needed in such a complex situation. Do you think Germany and France, too of the most 'liberal' societies in the world, allow a woman to have a late-term abortion? No, after the first trimester they generally do not. And nobody there is extremist enough to argue that they are trying to control women.
Seriously, get educated and stop with the foolish arguments that women are somehow being persecuted here.
Seriously, get educated and stop with the foolish arguments that women are somehow being persecuted here.
There is one thing that we can all agree on and that is this debate on abortion will not go away.
Religion evidently makes people clinically dishonest.
1
Backwards, backwards we go.
If one more person tells me that pro-choice people aren't pro-life, I'm going to scream my head off. Pro-choice doesn't mean "for abortion, against life," it means that we believe that a woman should have the right to choose--and often that choice is in the best interests of all concerned (yes, including the "unborn child").
Kansas is busy making it easier to have a gun and harder to make one's own choices about one of the most intimate matters in a woman's life. We're really not in Kansas anymore. I certainly won't be.
If one more person tells me that pro-choice people aren't pro-life, I'm going to scream my head off. Pro-choice doesn't mean "for abortion, against life," it means that we believe that a woman should have the right to choose--and often that choice is in the best interests of all concerned (yes, including the "unborn child").
Kansas is busy making it easier to have a gun and harder to make one's own choices about one of the most intimate matters in a woman's life. We're really not in Kansas anymore. I certainly won't be.
59
Agree re gun laws, but disagree that putting some limits on a woman's right to choose is going backwards. Do you know that in Germany or France, which have long been pro-choice countries and where there is hardly any opposition, a woman can typically only have an abortion until about week 20 (or the first trimester). After that it is considered inhumane and is generally restricted. Is this backwards?
No I don't think so, this is balanced. And sadly too many of the people on this forum have been brainwashed to see any limitation at all as backwards. Despite the fact that in almost every civilized society in the world where abortion is legal, there is some restriction on that right. I'm afraid in this debate Sir it is views like yours that are becoming the front of extremism and intolerance.
No I don't think so, this is balanced. And sadly too many of the people on this forum have been brainwashed to see any limitation at all as backwards. Despite the fact that in almost every civilized society in the world where abortion is legal, there is some restriction on that right. I'm afraid in this debate Sir it is views like yours that are becoming the front of extremism and intolerance.
A friend of mine once told me, "There's only two laws that anyone has to worry about. One, is the written law that no one believes in, and the second is the unwritten law that every one does believe in."
Women in Kansas are no different than women all over the world. Every woman in this world, yes, even the most patriarchal woman, knows her body is her own. She can be raped by brothers or fathers or even strangers.... but she knows that the body that is being raped is her's and her's alone.
Men in Kansas have said, "We don't care." These laws sneer at exemptions on rape and incest. Rape away, boys, these men say, get them pregnant and we will insure that your holy seed is more important than any female's needs.
We will be your sword in this War on Women."
Beware, O Men of Kansas. When you lay unnatural and unequal laws on half of your population, you will reap a bitter harvest. You will be despised. You will be hated. Even your patriarchal wives will find ways to bypass you. You will not have the 15 children that my paternal grandmother bore. You will get one. Or two. And sooner or later that discrepancy of how many your wives have borne versus how many you demand to force on other women, oh, yes, even through rape and incest, will begin to gnaw at the citizen's of your state.
No exemption for rape or incest.
Oh, yes, you are the foulest men in this land.
No one believes in your written laws.
No one believes in you.
Women in Kansas are no different than women all over the world. Every woman in this world, yes, even the most patriarchal woman, knows her body is her own. She can be raped by brothers or fathers or even strangers.... but she knows that the body that is being raped is her's and her's alone.
Men in Kansas have said, "We don't care." These laws sneer at exemptions on rape and incest. Rape away, boys, these men say, get them pregnant and we will insure that your holy seed is more important than any female's needs.
We will be your sword in this War on Women."
Beware, O Men of Kansas. When you lay unnatural and unequal laws on half of your population, you will reap a bitter harvest. You will be despised. You will be hated. Even your patriarchal wives will find ways to bypass you. You will not have the 15 children that my paternal grandmother bore. You will get one. Or two. And sooner or later that discrepancy of how many your wives have borne versus how many you demand to force on other women, oh, yes, even through rape and incest, will begin to gnaw at the citizen's of your state.
No exemption for rape or incest.
Oh, yes, you are the foulest men in this land.
No one believes in your written laws.
No one believes in you.
9
At the same time the Kansas Legislature and Governor have attempted to reduce abortions, they have added restrictions and limits to welfare. While each of these issues raises questions together they defy reason.
45
I believe many pregnancy-enforcers push these laws in order to continue a steady stream of babies into the adoption mill.
If it was the welfare of children they cared about, they'd support raising taxes on the super-rich to fund everything single mothers (and poverty-stricken married moms) and their children need, from birth thru age 18. Food, shelter, diapers, daycare...Insteads, they slash all these things. This would prevent a large proportion of abortions.
They want to force women into birthing babies and handing them over to wealthy families.
If it was the welfare of children they cared about, they'd support raising taxes on the super-rich to fund everything single mothers (and poverty-stricken married moms) and their children need, from birth thru age 18. Food, shelter, diapers, daycare...Insteads, they slash all these things. This would prevent a large proportion of abortions.
They want to force women into birthing babies and handing them over to wealthy families.
5
No, actually they just believe that human life is sacred and worthy of protection (even if it happens to be contained within another human body). I know it makes you feel better about your position to mis-characterize your opponents position, but that doesn't make it the slightest bit accurate. You may disagree about when life officially starts, but it's perfectly reasonable and balanced to take the view that the right of a woman to control her reproductive destiny should be balanced with the right of the baby to live. Which is why even in Europe, where abortion is not contested (e.g., Germany, France), women can only have abortions until about week 20. That is what a balanced view looks like M.L Chadwick.
It is not "reasonable" to limit doctors' ability to prescribe abortion-inducing meds in the first trimester....or to close down nearly all clinics in a state....these things are happening today.
How about..."Your religious beliefs end where my liberties (and body) begin?"
How about..."Your religious beliefs end where my liberties (and body) begin?"
2
We all know that the GOP right wing comprises an unholy alliance of plutocrats who control the economy and political process and poorly-informed social conservatives. The plutocrats care about one thing and one thing only: money. But money is speech, and that buys a lot of social-conservative minds and votes. In thinking about the abortion issue, it suddenly dawned on me the other day why the plutocrats are all for laws like this one in Kansas. The demographic statistics couldn't be clearer: Women in the bottom income quintile have a birth rate more than FOUR TIMES that of women in the top quintile! Result: The certainty of an endless supply of cheap labor and easily-manipulated minds. Unless you increase the minimum wage. Or provide free education. Or move to Europe. Oh, never mind...
3
Governor Brownback, my wife and I do not live in Kansas. We will attend our house of worship this Sunday and thank God for his kind generosity.
1
Your god does not exist. You are thanking an entity that is made up. Fake. False.
That your "house of worship" includes making women less in this world is a disgrace. You pious religios. Get a life.
That your "house of worship" includes making women less in this world is a disgrace. You pious religios. Get a life.
Even Kansas is not in Kansas anymore, Dorothy.
3
When I hear someone talk about abortion, I shudder. I am opposed to abortion and feel life is sacred. I applaud Sam Brownback and I know there are many of us who agree with his stand. It takes courage to go against the grain but I feel one has to stand up for what is right. There are too many innocent lives that have been lost due to abortion. Of course, the left-leaning readers of the NYT will not agree with me but I must speak out about this sad occurrence.
2
KMW - I am so glad to hear that those opposed to abortion even after rape, incest, and a diagnosis that their developing child has severe birth defects (such that they may not die before term or soon after birth, or will require constant care the rest of their lives) are demanding laws requiring that those restricting abortion to be financially liable for every medical and psychological cost associated with requiring women to maintain their pregnancy. Only seems fair to put their money where their theocratic mouths are.
1
When you say the "safest" means of ending a second trimester pregnancy, does that mean it's the "safest" means for the baby, too?
2
This ridiculous (no exception for rape or incest) intrusion from Right to Life on the citizens of Kansas is sure to be overturned as unconstitutional, and the legislature most likely knew it. It is more likely that they needed a loud distraction in Kansas to distract attention from the debacle that is Governor Brownback's budget.
Whenever a lost social conservative issue is needlessly raised, follow the money.
Whenever a lost social conservative issue is needlessly raised, follow the money.
6
Hmmm ... well, I guess they have some pretty good basketball teams, but other than that, I can't imagine why anyone would move to Kansas. Or a business would locate there. It's just a matter of time until the legislature finds a way to shove me around, just because they can get away with it.
2
The voters of Kansas just re-elected this reactionary regime and frankly they knew exactly what they were getting - lousy economics, a continued erosion of the quality of life and government intrusion into the most personal choices one can make. Personally I continue to wonder at the fact that these politicians seem to love "babies" from the moment of conception right up until the moment of their birth...after that you are on your own kid.
50
Which is worse...a Republican governor who bankrupted his state through "austerity," and now wants to ban abortions; or the constituents who voted him into office...TWICE?
6
The Times can't name a single legislator, not one other person responsible or involved in the story other than Gov. Brownback?
1
They protect the fetus...then deny critical supports and services that would help make the unwanted child a productive member of society. These include a living wage, affordable housing, good childcare, universal PK, and decent public schools.
2
In many ways, the USA is a harsh and unforgiving place to have a child. We Americans, men and women, reserve the right to safeguard our lives against economic hardship without invasive state government.
2
Early in my life I was presented a job opportunity to move to the midwest. My wife and I are so glad we did not.
Over the past three weeks, the midwest and the south have presented an image to the rest of the country of intolerance, social hostility to women and down right police brutality towards people of color.
Those in the south and midwest complain that the coasts perceive them to be country bumpkins who are intolerant of minorities, women and the LGBT community...between police shotting unarmed civilians and adopting state laws on intolerance towards gays and restricting abortion---what are we to believe.
Would love to see FAUX News spin on this!
Over the past three weeks, the midwest and the south have presented an image to the rest of the country of intolerance, social hostility to women and down right police brutality towards people of color.
Those in the south and midwest complain that the coasts perceive them to be country bumpkins who are intolerant of minorities, women and the LGBT community...between police shotting unarmed civilians and adopting state laws on intolerance towards gays and restricting abortion---what are we to believe.
Would love to see FAUX News spin on this!
7
This is a humanity issue --- NOT a female issue ---
So, my wife or the mother of my child can get an abortion without my permission or knowledge.
1.2 million abortions a year, but let's worry about chickens being cage free.
Really
So, my wife or the mother of my child can get an abortion without my permission or knowledge.
1.2 million abortions a year, but let's worry about chickens being cage free.
Really
1
If you feel that way make sure you get a vasectomy and your daughter has access to sex education and contraception. While you're at it throw some support to providing those things to the rest of the country.
1
Yes, she can. She does not need your "permission."
If it is a worthwhile relationship, you woud discuss the issue together, but the final decision is hers. No matter what.
If it is a worthwhile relationship, you woud discuss the issue together, but the final decision is hers. No matter what.
2
"So, my wife or the mother of my child can get an abortion without my permission or knowledge." James Anthony
You, sir, seem to view your wife as property. I'll bet she doesn't see it the same way.
You, sir, seem to view your wife as property. I'll bet she doesn't see it the same way.
7
To bad voter turnout of women is so incredibly poor, even among the educated, along with voter turnout of Democrats in general including minorities.
What's up with that?
What's up with that?
They did it to themselves!
2
So here we go back into the dark ages of back street abortions with dirty knives in filthy conditions.
For heaven's sake vote these people out! Protest, march, spread the word, use any means possible in social media or eventually abortion will become illegal and probably contraception will follow.
For heaven's sake vote these people out! Protest, march, spread the word, use any means possible in social media or eventually abortion will become illegal and probably contraception will follow.
6
The oligarchs realized long ago that they couldn't take power by letting the American people in on their real game plan. Instead, they enlisted a fearful, angry voting base motivated by raging religious zeal.
The point is, you won't get very far with a campaign based on, "We're going to cut our taxes down to nothingness, because why would we pay taxes? Incidentally, this will necessitate raising your taxes to the point of strangulation to pay for the basic costs of government. Tough luck, that.
"Though mind you, your little pittance still won't be enough to pay the piper. And good luck coming up with the cash: we'll be offshoring your jobs and using a series of sly legal fictions to dissolve those costly pensions.
"Also, we're done with your socialist environmental and workplace protections. As for your labor unions, why would we negotiate with a pack of peasants? That's class warfare!
"While we're at it, we're going to privatize your roads and schools and prisons. Talk about a profit opportunity! All those gorgeous tax dollars, ours for the taking! Brilliant!"
Nope: this would not have flown, nor would it have given these people the Supreme Court, the US Congress and most of the nation's legislatures.
Instead, we've had 30 years of culture war. Welfare Queens! Adam and Steve! And above all, poor little unborn babies!
It worked.
The real story in Bloody Kansas is that the oligarchy is taking it to the next level. The war on women is a proxy war.
The point is, you won't get very far with a campaign based on, "We're going to cut our taxes down to nothingness, because why would we pay taxes? Incidentally, this will necessitate raising your taxes to the point of strangulation to pay for the basic costs of government. Tough luck, that.
"Though mind you, your little pittance still won't be enough to pay the piper. And good luck coming up with the cash: we'll be offshoring your jobs and using a series of sly legal fictions to dissolve those costly pensions.
"Also, we're done with your socialist environmental and workplace protections. As for your labor unions, why would we negotiate with a pack of peasants? That's class warfare!
"While we're at it, we're going to privatize your roads and schools and prisons. Talk about a profit opportunity! All those gorgeous tax dollars, ours for the taking! Brilliant!"
Nope: this would not have flown, nor would it have given these people the Supreme Court, the US Congress and most of the nation's legislatures.
Instead, we've had 30 years of culture war. Welfare Queens! Adam and Steve! And above all, poor little unborn babies!
It worked.
The real story in Bloody Kansas is that the oligarchy is taking it to the next level. The war on women is a proxy war.
8
Women are acceptable casualties n the culture wars especially since we tend to vote democratic. We are collateral damage when we aren't being subjected to the authority of some man, in which case we are merely collateral as in property.
1
"If men got pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament."
4
Brownback and his utter debacle and hypocrisy of a government was brilliantly skewered by Jon Stewart last night.
Abortion rights are long decided and the only and I mean only difference between legal and illegal abortions is the poor women die!
Pre-1973 rich women went to their "aunt's" house or has a D&C while poor women bled to death or were horribly maimed.
Do not lie, do not delude--that is and will always be the result of restrictions.
Here are 2 simple rules:
1. If you do not believe in abortion-Do not have one!
2. Do not impose or legislate your religious beliefs onto others!
Abortion rights are long decided and the only and I mean only difference between legal and illegal abortions is the poor women die!
Pre-1973 rich women went to their "aunt's" house or has a D&C while poor women bled to death or were horribly maimed.
Do not lie, do not delude--that is and will always be the result of restrictions.
Here are 2 simple rules:
1. If you do not believe in abortion-Do not have one!
2. Do not impose or legislate your religious beliefs onto others!
7
Red states are out of touch with Americans. Soon same-sex marriage and marijuana will be legalized. These states are dragging the Republican party down with them. That will leave us with only Democrats to choose from. Hopefully a third party will emerge since there is little chance the GOP will come to its senses.
1
Where is the AMA? Why aren't they screaming about legislators intruding on the doctor/patient relationship? Why are they seemingly complicit in bowing to the legislators in the 'legal' requirements to lie to their patients? Before this latest assault, doctors were required by law to lie to a pregnant woman who had a problem with her pregnancy in order to avoid the possibility that she and her family may opt for an abortion. This is so appalling that I'm nearly speechless with the injustice and stupidity that Kansas physicians are abetting. And if you, Kansas MD's, aren't abetting this travesty, why aren't we hearing your outrage throughout the nation?????
5
I am very, very sick of these people. I wish their stupidity were laughable, but they are doing so much harm. And their voices seem to be getting louder. Can we turn ourselves around?
I remember when this kind of thing would have been an irritant, not a real threat to women--and people--everywhere in this country. I remember when this would have been the exception. I'm afraid it isn't today.
I remember when this kind of thing would have been an irritant, not a real threat to women--and people--everywhere in this country. I remember when this would have been the exception. I'm afraid it isn't today.
54
Here we are in the 21st century and there are still primitive peoples wearing loin cloths and spearing fish in the Amazon River. When it comes to certain levels of civilized progress I think I would place the state of Kansas just under the level of places like Afghanistan where women are stilll considered to be a man's property and are treated accordingly.
3
A quick perusal of the Wiki entry for Kansas businesses yields Koch Industries with its' hq in Wichita. While they can't buy naming rights in Kansas to international venues like the State Theatre and the sidewalk outside the MMA, I'm sure they have enough money floating around the state to work their magic and control voter thought.
2
Do the majority of the people on this thread not realize that in Germany or France you can only get an abortion in the first trimester?? These are among the most liberal societies around.. yet among the NYTimes readership I read post after post comparing Kansans or anyone else who supports some limitation on a woman's right to abort her baby to the Taliban. What I'm hearing from you supposedly 'enlightened' people 90% of the time is character assassination. The real bigotry, extremism and intolerance in this debate is sadly where you might least expect it. Re-evaluate yourself and your position!
1
Those countries also have good health care and access to contraception as well as family friendly policies. Family planning has a lot of components.
1
The proponents here are bashed as religious zealots. However, It is a scientific fact that human life begins at conception, any other measurement is arbitrary and faith based to fulfill the belief in choice.
1
In other countries where abortion is legal, yes abortion, not "woman's health", it very rarely is allowed beyond 12 weeks.
2
Why do you so studiously avoid the term "pro-life?"
1
Because they're not. They don't care if the mother of the baby has adequate health care or nutrition or if she's getting clean air and water, they don't care if the neighborhoods are safe, they don't care if the child has a safe neighborhood or good schools and they really don't care if one of the neighbors ends or a local cop ends up shooting the child.
1
Because it has not been earned by the people who apply it to themselves. These are the same people who want guns in schools, the American military in every country on earth and the death penalty. They don't want to help our society's most needy. To me, all of this is anti-life.
1
Because it is a lie. A talking point. A political slogan. It means nothing.
It means that you are pro getting in other people's wombs. Noting else.
It means that you are pro getting in other people's wombs. Noting else.
1
This anti abortion business is not only an attack on women, but also an attack on the separation of church and state. They are trying there best to mix religion and politics and force their religious agenda on all of us. An attack on women's reproductive rights is an attack on all of us, male and female.
4
Good for Kansas. The youth of this country sees the evils of abortion that the old libs see as a civil right to terminate life at will. Sonograms and other medical advances since the Roe v. Wade abomination have shown that abortion is outright murder. You can spin it a thousand different ways, but it is murder.
1
When it is your fetus in your body you have a say.
Until then please just be quiet. You busybodies are a horror.
Until then please just be quiet. You busybodies are a horror.
You can spin until you fall over, but everything you say is untrue--as much as your religious delusions tell you otherwise.
1
I pity the state of Kansas - to have voted for such an ogre of
a Gov. and pea-brained lawmakers of his ilk. I don't know much
about him - is he a religious fanatic? Aren't there women in
power to combat him in that state? Who in God's name married
this fiend? What can the govt. or sane people do to combat this ignorance. ??? Shameful!
a Gov. and pea-brained lawmakers of his ilk. I don't know much
about him - is he a religious fanatic? Aren't there women in
power to combat him in that state? Who in God's name married
this fiend? What can the govt. or sane people do to combat this ignorance. ??? Shameful!
3
The folks trying to stamp out abortion are the same ones who drive gay youth to suicide with conversion therapy (see yesterday's NYT). These trends are more the result of progressives' passiveness than Brownback, et al's zeal.
Surely some liberal organization can sponsor a fleet therapy vans to Kansas. They can provide counseling to young women forced into incubation duty for Jesus and reverse gay youth self-hatred. Counselling itself wouldn't break any Kansas laws. Should a woman thereafter want an abortion, or a gay youth request protection from his or her fundamentalist family, they can then be driven across the state border.
Surely some liberal organization can sponsor a fleet therapy vans to Kansas. They can provide counseling to young women forced into incubation duty for Jesus and reverse gay youth self-hatred. Counselling itself wouldn't break any Kansas laws. Should a woman thereafter want an abortion, or a gay youth request protection from his or her fundamentalist family, they can then be driven across the state border.
3
There are thousands of activists working on preventing and ameliorating the attacks on women, but the money on the other side is huge and the misogynists in government are manareThere are funds specifically to help women navigate and afford the multitude of barriers and the huge expenses they imposed.
Go to prochoiceamerica.org, plannedparenthood.org/, fundabortionnow.org/, wrrap.org/
There are others, both local and national. Google is your friend.
Go to prochoiceamerica.org, plannedparenthood.org/, fundabortionnow.org/, wrrap.org/
There are others, both local and national. Google is your friend.
1
Sprint Corporation is headquartered in Overland Park Kansas. Start the push back there.
7
Seems like a more accurate descriptor for the "Heartland" is the "Heartless Land" (and proud of it).
10
Young women across this country need to wake up to the fact that their reproductive freedom and the freedom to own and their bodies and to make their own choices that were won by their mothers and grandmothers is in peril.
Young American women need to understand the greatest threat to their lives and their health and their independence is the Republican Party and they need to vote accordingly and they need to that by the tens of millions or the Republican Party will enslave them.
Young American women need to understand the greatest threat to their lives and their health and their independence is the Republican Party and they need to vote accordingly and they need to that by the tens of millions or the Republican Party will enslave them.
11
I fear they won't understand until all of their right to a safe and legal abortion is taken away from them, everywhere. It sure seems we are headed in that direction.
1
I used to work as a histologist in hospital laboratories. We are the people who process biopsies, sometimes assist in autopsies, and anything that comes off or out of a body - along with the pathologists. In ten years, I only saw 2 dismemberment abortions. Both of them were fetuses who had severe genetic defects, and would not have lived at birth and may have died in utero. This anti-abortion bill in Kansas is yet another case of politicians running their religious agenda, and denying and ignoring medicine, and medical realities. If you don't believe in abortion, then don't get one. But leave all the rest of society the right to safe and legal ways to terminate a pregnancy.
20
Yes, they really don't care about fetuses at all. They are simply running a stalking horse to cheat this nation of freedom from religion, promised by "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion", the very first condition imposed by the 13 original states to ratify the US Constitution.
1
But if you believed is was a person wouldn't you try do something about it?
All the anti-abortion laws in the world will not stop abortions. They were not invented by Roe or Wade. They either exist illegally with all its dangerous consequences or safely in a legal clinic.
The only way to reduce the number of abortions is to make them unnecessary. And the way to make them unnecessary is to teach reproductive health to all children and make family planning accessible and available to everyone.
For the time being, Kansans will have to travel to more civilized States to get the therapeutic abortions they may need in a safe and secure manner.
The only way to reduce the number of abortions is to make them unnecessary. And the way to make them unnecessary is to teach reproductive health to all children and make family planning accessible and available to everyone.
For the time being, Kansans will have to travel to more civilized States to get the therapeutic abortions they may need in a safe and secure manner.
18
When will we see the spate of laws governing what men do to cause births. If this is not about laws that abuse women, there needs to be a balance of laws that punish any man seeking paid sex, laws that penalize the man who caused the birth that seeks an abortion, laws that restrict men to prophylactics use only unless a woman gives written permission which requires lifelong financial support for the newborn. Since these abortion laws are partly a product of those who pretend to be christians, any child that is not wanted by the mother is to be automatically delivered to the nearest church to be housed, fed, educated through college and generally carried for by the worthy christians. Laws are need to parse out the unwanted children to the homes of politicians who have voted in favor of the abortion laws for like financial support through college so they can show us how caring they truly are. If this does not happen you will know the hypocrisy of these lawmakers, less they be taken for slaveholders as they force women to their will. They are also giving you a taste of how lawmakers who are sent to Washington, DC treat the residents of that plantation who are denied a vote in this democracy and who are always penalized when they try to govern themselves. Welcome to the new GOP/Tea Party/Evangelical ideology.
14
Speaking of balance, do you think it fair Sir that women have 100% of the reproductive rights after conception in terms of choosing whether to keep the baby, and the man is held liable economically though he has no say in the matter? If anything, our social laws are biased in favor of women.
Also, few civilized societies in the world allow late term abortions. Germany and France only allow them in most cases up until week 20. So why do you label all Americans who support some restriction on the practice as 'religious fanatics'? Are the Germans and French, and Spanish and Irish also as 'backward' as the Kansas??? Give me a break..
Also, few civilized societies in the world allow late term abortions. Germany and France only allow them in most cases up until week 20. So why do you label all Americans who support some restriction on the practice as 'religious fanatics'? Are the Germans and French, and Spanish and Irish also as 'backward' as the Kansas??? Give me a break..
I continue to be amazed that rules to restrict abortions in the second trimester are always framed in the media as "anti-abortion". As far as I know, it has been extremely difficult to find a reputable doctor to perform an abortion in the second trimester for decades, if not forever, except under life threatening or other highly unusual circumstances.
Do we have any facts about how many people this law actually affects before we get all hysterical about it?
Do we have any facts about how many people this law actually affects before we get all hysterical about it?
4
do people actually believe that women waltz into a physician's office from off the street, cracking their bubble gum, demanding a second trimester abortion which they are then given unquestioningly on the spot? To those that answered yes, I can assure you that these procedures are mostly done on women with wanted pregnancies whose fetuses die or are diagnosed with a condition that continuing the desired pregnancy would either endanger the health of the mother, the fetus, or both. I'm sure it's not difficult to wrap your head around the fact that a woman might not want to carry a corpse baby for 5 more months because of some silly laws made by men.
14
As far as I'm concerned, these lawmakers are practicing medicine without a license. Who are they to decide which abortion method should be used? If I need to have my appendix removed, would they step in to offer their opinion, too? Which medication I should be on for my diabetes? If I were a resident of Kansas, I would be fuming mad right now that these politicians are wasting taxpayer money coming up with these laws. Really, Kansas has no other problems to solve?
10
In most countries in which abortion is legal, it is limited to the first 12 weeks of pregnancy. Only the NY Times and its readers think thislimitation is an undue burden.
There is no such thing as a safe abortion any more than there is a safe war. Of course there can be victory in war, but not a victory without death. And, there is no abortion without death.
And there is a price that liberals are not aware they pay. A lot of people who are horrified by liberal tolerance for abortion, even for late abortion, then vote their conscience, i.e. they vote Republican. This is a large part of why the Senate and the House are both Republican.
And Republicans use these votes to fatten the rich even more, to impoverish the poor, and to wage wars which does no one any good.
It is a tragic cycle.
There is no such thing as a safe abortion any more than there is a safe war. Of course there can be victory in war, but not a victory without death. And, there is no abortion without death.
And there is a price that liberals are not aware they pay. A lot of people who are horrified by liberal tolerance for abortion, even for late abortion, then vote their conscience, i.e. they vote Republican. This is a large part of why the Senate and the House are both Republican.
And Republicans use these votes to fatten the rich even more, to impoverish the poor, and to wage wars which does no one any good.
It is a tragic cycle.
2
Your first claim is wrong, and everything unravels from there.
The countries you refer to also have good health care, access to contraception, family leave policies etc.
1
The 12-week abortion you cite above is a product of counties that have single payer health systems, where ultra sounds are available as soon as requested. Here in the US, 13 weeks is the minimum amount of time to wait before an ultrasound will be covered by insurance.
Funny how the culture of life does not extend to the poor, children after they are born, the innocent collateral victims of our mis-begotten wars, or factory farmed animals. Republicans are hypocrites, plain and simple. They claim to be Christians, but follow none of teachings of Jesus.
Funny how the culture of life does not extend to the poor, children after they are born, the innocent collateral victims of our mis-begotten wars, or factory farmed animals. Republicans are hypocrites, plain and simple. They claim to be Christians, but follow none of teachings of Jesus.
3
One wouldn't do to a seal or a dog what one does in "the safest and far most common method of ending a second-trimester pregnancy" because it would be regarded as inhumane (even though animals aren't human). But ripping off limbs, dissecting the thorax, or splitting the abdomen (yes, these are the terms for these parts of the fetus) suddenly generates silence from the Times. This article makes no mention that, after 20 weeks (i.e., 5 months of gestational development) a fetus has a developed nervous system, i.e., is quite capable of experiencing PAIN. It is high time this conspiracy of silence ended.
5
By these criteria, I guess we can't be doing any surgery for any reason any more.
1
"The majority of the scientific literature on the subject finds that the brain connections required to feel pain are not formed until at least 24 weeks."
1
Gov. Brownback is an example of a modern American fundamentalist. His visions of some abortion free America are pure fantasy. Abortions have always existed, and always will. Roe v. Wade took abortion out of the shadows, and back rooms. Gave women the power to make difficult decisions in the open light of day with modern science and healthcare. Back then hypocrisy among righteous anti-abortionists was appalling. Preaching murderess in public and quietly in their personal life they'd pay the doctor and sequester some daughter, girlfriend, or wife away. Reality is there are no easy answers, but women must not go back to being treated like inferior creatures that can't be given the power to decide! Over many decades I've attended pro-choice marches with millions of others. Staunch anti-abortion groups have always shown up in pitifully small numbers. But American politics has birthed a modern GOP where politicians must show loyalty to an extreme social religiosity, just as extreme as their virulent pursuit of robber baron and gilded age economics.
14
My mother was born and raised in a small town in Kansas and attended the University of Kansas before leaving after marrying my father. Her father was a doctor and she told us he did whatever he could to help women take control of their health and helped more than one with a medically necessary abortion. My mother was a staunch supporter of Planned Parenthood all her life and I know she must be turning in her grave to see how the politicians of the state she loved and called home are leading the way in reactionary gender politics.
10
"Here, as with other recent legislation limiting doctors’ ability to prescribe abortion-inducing medications in the first trimester, lawmakers have imposed their own moral judgments and restricted or criminalized decisions doctors make in caring for their patients."
Theocracy lives! The fight of the right to impose their "moral judgments" is part and parcel of a movement to disregard the anti-establishment clause of the Bill of rights. It's uniquely religious and moralistic, and it's totally inconsistent with the right's other key premises, individual liberty and limiting the role of government.
Limiting abortion is a proxy fight to ensure that Christian values dictate US laws. Look, nobody is in favor of abortion. Nobody. But it has been fiercely fought for, and enshrined into law, to allow women to make these hard choices with their doctors in a medically safe and secure way.
The right seems to be taunting the Supreme Court to roll back Roe vs. Wade and condemn an entire gender to live according to the religious beliefs of Republican governors. And this is simply wrong.
For a party that rants for individual freedom, they sure know how to curb it when it suits their religious goals.
Theocracy lives! The fight of the right to impose their "moral judgments" is part and parcel of a movement to disregard the anti-establishment clause of the Bill of rights. It's uniquely religious and moralistic, and it's totally inconsistent with the right's other key premises, individual liberty and limiting the role of government.
Limiting abortion is a proxy fight to ensure that Christian values dictate US laws. Look, nobody is in favor of abortion. Nobody. But it has been fiercely fought for, and enshrined into law, to allow women to make these hard choices with their doctors in a medically safe and secure way.
The right seems to be taunting the Supreme Court to roll back Roe vs. Wade and condemn an entire gender to live according to the religious beliefs of Republican governors. And this is simply wrong.
For a party that rants for individual freedom, they sure know how to curb it when it suits their religious goals.
15
Look forward, to the "compulsory motherhood" states (such as Kansas) enacting legislation to prevent females, with enough money, from leaving such sates until they give birth,
All such females, will be required to be pregnancy-tested, at every point a female might leave such states.
The banning of home pregnancy tests will follow next
All such females, will be required to be pregnancy-tested, at every point a female might leave such states.
The banning of home pregnancy tests will follow next
9
Nobody is addressing the fact that, until recently, insurance companies wouldn't even pay for an ultrasound until 12 weeks, and many offices didn't have the ultrasound detailed enough. for reliable earlier diagnosis. Anything before that was considered overkill and iffy at best. Both of my lost pregnacies ended in D&C's when they became necessary after a 13 week ultrasound (the soonest they could schedule) showed there was no heartbeat. Both were life saving procedures, both were stop gap measures before emergency hysterectomies, luckily, they did what they were meant to and I didn't wake up without a uterus. Just without a dead fetus inside me. Should I have bled to death the first time? or died from the infection during the second one? Which one would have been better for my (already birthed and living) kids?
14
While states in the industrial north bemoan the loss of their young people, who leave the states as soon as they graduate, Kansas seems to be trying as hard as it can to outdo them. Every policy Kansas pursues, from the evisceration of education, to disinvestment in the infrastructure, to regressive tax policy, to encroaching theocracy, is moving in the opposite direction from young people. In 20 years, Kansas will be a churchgoing, Midwestern, old folks home, whose young families come visit at on holidays. On the other hand, Kansas looks better and better to the Fox News generation, average age 68, every day.
14
Abortion is a nasty business. Life often is. Sickness and death are our travel companions, and no number of Pollyannas can change that. There’s no need to be governed by the taboos of desert tribes or European city states unless they serve a positive purpose today. We’ve been fruitful and multiplied, and in spite of horrific wars, have sent people crawling all over the earth.
Some want this devastation to go on. And they want the minds and lives of women to be held prisoners by the accidents of their conception and those double-X chromosomes. How bizarre.
Some want this devastation to go on. And they want the minds and lives of women to be held prisoners by the accidents of their conception and those double-X chromosomes. How bizarre.
10
I disagree with the comments here that want a detailed description of these procedures in the bills, but express support for the right to an abortion. Whatever information I want about whatever procedure I decide to have, I will get from my doctor, not from the state, or some legislator who used to sell insurance. Abortion is legal up to viability, and the state has no business interfering in the relationship between a woman and her doctor, or trying to influence her medical decisions in any way, period. Not only should these bills not contain such information, they should not even exist.
71
Federalism can be a pain; but it's not going to change anytime soon. Short of a ruling by the U.S. Supreme Court that adjusts Roe to be untouchable, or the equally (very) unlikely action by Congress to codify a woman's reproductive rights in statutory fashion, some states will continue seeking to define their communities very restrictively on this issue by chipping away at Roe.
There's really only one practical way to respond. Grass roots organizations there and elsewhere must agitate to shun Kansas businesses, and to get people to avoid the state for tourist purposes. There are established and effective models for doing this.
Kansas is one of the aviation centers of the world, hosting manufacturing facilities for such companies as Learjet, Cessna, Hawker Beechcraft, Airbus and Boeing . Airlines that purchase aircraft all over the world could be approached to insist that for these companies to be competitive in bids, they would need to certify that no part of the product was manufactured or would be serviced in Kansas. The state also is a major agricultural producer, and the same pressure might be levied by those who buy large quantities of food products. Pressure could be brought to bear in other areas, as well.
One splinter of Republicans is very attuned to religious issues in governance, but ALL Republicans are attuned to business issues. You want real action on reproductive rights, whose example would resonate in ALL states? Hit Kansans where it hurts.
There's really only one practical way to respond. Grass roots organizations there and elsewhere must agitate to shun Kansas businesses, and to get people to avoid the state for tourist purposes. There are established and effective models for doing this.
Kansas is one of the aviation centers of the world, hosting manufacturing facilities for such companies as Learjet, Cessna, Hawker Beechcraft, Airbus and Boeing . Airlines that purchase aircraft all over the world could be approached to insist that for these companies to be competitive in bids, they would need to certify that no part of the product was manufactured or would be serviced in Kansas. The state also is a major agricultural producer, and the same pressure might be levied by those who buy large quantities of food products. Pressure could be brought to bear in other areas, as well.
One splinter of Republicans is very attuned to religious issues in governance, but ALL Republicans are attuned to business issues. You want real action on reproductive rights, whose example would resonate in ALL states? Hit Kansans where it hurts.
4
The US is out of whack compared to the much more "civilized" countries of Europe when dealing with abortion restrictions. Germany and France, for example, limit abortion to the first trimester; most other European nations are similar or stricter concerning abortion. If twelve weeks works for the Germans and the French why is twenty weeks for Americans considered an abnormal hardship restriction.
Twenty four weeks is much too late for an abortion - and so is twenty for that matter. The US should get in line with our European cousins and adopt law recognizing the advanced near baby status of the fetus. The adoption of twenty four weeks because a fetus can survive outside the mother is at best an arbitrary determination. It's a distinction which doesn't pretend or begin to appreciate the awfulness allowed.
The humane restriction - one which retains a woman's right while also realizing reverence for the potential life that is being destroyed is long overdue.
Twenty four weeks is much too late for an abortion - and so is twenty for that matter. The US should get in line with our European cousins and adopt law recognizing the advanced near baby status of the fetus. The adoption of twenty four weeks because a fetus can survive outside the mother is at best an arbitrary determination. It's a distinction which doesn't pretend or begin to appreciate the awfulness allowed.
The humane restriction - one which retains a woman's right while also realizing reverence for the potential life that is being destroyed is long overdue.
3
What people do not understand is that the vast majority of abortions are done early in pregnancy. When they are done late in pregnancy it is generally for health reasons: either the fetus has a major problem and may even have died in utero or the pregnancy presents a medical problem for the mother. Only women who have difficulty getting an abortion early in the pregnancy show up at five months still trying to get one! Governor Brownback has already shown his remarkable backward leadership with respect to the effect of cutting taxes, "saving" the state and individuals, and now Kansas is in dire straits economically, especially its schools. Now he and the state representatives are showing their wisdom in condemning women to unsafe abortions, by making safe ones unobtainable.
If you have any choice about it, I recommend that you boycott Kansas. Despite the high moral language that is used in this legislation it is no different than the religion reform laws of other states: these are a back-handed way of imposing the religious beliefs of a segment of the population onto those with other religious views. I feel sorry for those trapped in states like Kansas that put great store in getting government off your back and out of your life except when it comes to your reproductive life or if you want to provide your child with a decent public education. Apparently Kansans cannot see the mote in their own eye.
If you have any choice about it, I recommend that you boycott Kansas. Despite the high moral language that is used in this legislation it is no different than the religion reform laws of other states: these are a back-handed way of imposing the religious beliefs of a segment of the population onto those with other religious views. I feel sorry for those trapped in states like Kansas that put great store in getting government off your back and out of your life except when it comes to your reproductive life or if you want to provide your child with a decent public education. Apparently Kansans cannot see the mote in their own eye.
5
Gail Collins has made some important observations in recent columns about advances in LGBT rights and regression in women's reproductive freedom. She notes that there has been a public outcry against anti-gay legislation while there has been very little protest against the attack against women. I have to ask myself why this this the case, and I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that abortion is related to sexual activity which is, given prevailing gender norms, still a source of shaming for women. Feminist theorist have argued convincingly that women often don't report rape because of its association with sex: women are made to feel that they somehow brought this violation upon themselves because of what they have done or failed to do. The same can be said to be true about abortion. As long as sexuality is a source of shame for women, speaking out publicly against violations of women that are framed in terms of sexuality is going to be a challenge. For the record, I want to state that I had an abortion at the age of twenty when I was an undergraduate. Like a previous commenter, I don't know what course my life would have taken had I not done so, but I feel pretty certain that I would not be the successful academic, married, child-free woman I am today.
4
I can understand abortion in the first 12 weeks. Probably ~40% of pregnancies naturally abort in that time. But I have seen a fourth month baby arrive too early and struggle for 15 minutes until finally starting to turn blue, then finally dying within five more minutes. He was large enough to have a good chance of survival today. The next four babies were six plus pounds in the sixth month and the parents were told they had twins until ultrasound showed but one.
Some families consistently have early development. Sone have slow.
We do not allow cats or dogs to be ripped apart or burned to death with strong saline solutions. So how can we let humans so die. Heck, we do not tolerate such execution for the worst of criminals.
And do not make up any psuedo science about infants are so primitive they do not feel pain. That is so insulting to our intelligence. Have you never played games with a newly kicking baby? Have you never then poked in one area away from the kicking and have the baby instantly kick back right where you poked? Poke twice and some babies who have just started kicking will kick back twice in your spot. And then kick in another spot and when you poke there kick back and then choose another spot. And the game can go on for tens of minutes.
Even if abortion were necessary in the first 12 weeks, why not insert an anesthetic for the infant? We do for the most vicious of criminals.
Some families consistently have early development. Sone have slow.
We do not allow cats or dogs to be ripped apart or burned to death with strong saline solutions. So how can we let humans so die. Heck, we do not tolerate such execution for the worst of criminals.
And do not make up any psuedo science about infants are so primitive they do not feel pain. That is so insulting to our intelligence. Have you never played games with a newly kicking baby? Have you never then poked in one area away from the kicking and have the baby instantly kick back right where you poked? Poke twice and some babies who have just started kicking will kick back twice in your spot. And then kick in another spot and when you poke there kick back and then choose another spot. And the game can go on for tens of minutes.
Even if abortion were necessary in the first 12 weeks, why not insert an anesthetic for the infant? We do for the most vicious of criminals.
5
No one makes the decision to abort lightly. The decision must be between the woman and the doctor. No one else.
You seem to have some kind of fantasy to the effect that people get pregnant just to torture fetuses.
I find it striking how condescending this article is - and indeed most of the comments are - to the people of Kansas. They are painted as backwards people from a bygone era who are nothing more than intolerant, hypocritical, religious fanatics. A classic case of character assassination that I sadly see more often than not when the nytimes references anything in the Midwest, and which often trumps any semblance of fair journalism or educated debate.
The fact is that it is a perfectly rationale and educated human being can come to the fair conclusion that a compromise in the case of abortion would involve some restrictions on a woman's right to choose. The question is where to draw the line. Almost every civilised country in the world has such restrictions - even the more liberal Western European countries that 'enlightened' readers of the NYtimes so often like to point to - restrict a woman's right to abort at any time in the pregnancy. In Ireland and Spain, abortion is heavily restricted. In France and Germany, there is more freedom for women to choose but they can not go into the clinic a week before delivery and abort their baby, in most cases at least. Sadly, the more visible intolerance in this debate at the moment is coming from people who accept 0 compromise, 0 restrictions at all in what is clearly a complex situation, and insist that anything short of a 100% right to choose up until the final moment is the only 'modern' solution.
The fact is that it is a perfectly rationale and educated human being can come to the fair conclusion that a compromise in the case of abortion would involve some restrictions on a woman's right to choose. The question is where to draw the line. Almost every civilised country in the world has such restrictions - even the more liberal Western European countries that 'enlightened' readers of the NYtimes so often like to point to - restrict a woman's right to abort at any time in the pregnancy. In Ireland and Spain, abortion is heavily restricted. In France and Germany, there is more freedom for women to choose but they can not go into the clinic a week before delivery and abort their baby, in most cases at least. Sadly, the more visible intolerance in this debate at the moment is coming from people who accept 0 compromise, 0 restrictions at all in what is clearly a complex situation, and insist that anything short of a 100% right to choose up until the final moment is the only 'modern' solution.
5
You make some good points but the countries you mentioned also have good health care, better education, access to contraception and more family friendly policies.
1
You're so involved in imagining what other people do that you probably don't even have a life of your own.
1
Perhaps this would all be unnecessary if states, like Kansas, aggressively pursued teaching both "sex education" and "contraception" in their classrooms. I assume that teenagers in Kansas are like teenagers world wide and sexual encounters will happen despite the efforts of legislators to prevent this from happening (If "abstinence" is their best response then, it seems, "abortions", legal or otherwise, will inevitably follow).
When the "legislators" demand no pregnancies and no abortions but do not "educate" their children about the downside of sexual encounters, the results can be an unwanted child. Stopping the pregnancy before it starts is, to me, the logical approach. Unfortunately, the one issue, anti-abortion crowd doesn't see it that way (I guess the sperm and the egg are also "people") and, at least in Kansas, they seem motivated enough to vote for anti-abortion candidates like Mr. Brownback and his cohorts.
Meanwhile, who takes care of the unwanted children?
When the "legislators" demand no pregnancies and no abortions but do not "educate" their children about the downside of sexual encounters, the results can be an unwanted child. Stopping the pregnancy before it starts is, to me, the logical approach. Unfortunately, the one issue, anti-abortion crowd doesn't see it that way (I guess the sperm and the egg are also "people") and, at least in Kansas, they seem motivated enough to vote for anti-abortion candidates like Mr. Brownback and his cohorts.
Meanwhile, who takes care of the unwanted children?
2
I believe that some abortions should be safe and legal. Some clearly should not be and anyone of normal moral sensibilities who views ultrasound images at 20 weeks or so understands where the line must be drawn.
A lot of Democrats have never met an abortion they didn't like. This includes Obama, who as a state legislator actually supported a bill a bill that would enable a doctor to kill a fetus that inconveniently (for the abortionist) was born alive. One had the image of a Christian nurse fleeing with a newborn while a "doctor" pursues her with scalpel in hand like one of Herod's soldiers.
There are few absolute rights. Americans have always struggled with pragmatism (read moral relativism) versus principle. We somehow realize that principles are necessary, even sturdy moral strictures that do not bend in every passing wind. Even obstinate people who cling to principle are essential to a society's long term healthiness. It's a pity more of them are not judges.
A lot of Democrats have never met an abortion they didn't like. This includes Obama, who as a state legislator actually supported a bill a bill that would enable a doctor to kill a fetus that inconveniently (for the abortionist) was born alive. One had the image of a Christian nurse fleeing with a newborn while a "doctor" pursues her with scalpel in hand like one of Herod's soldiers.
There are few absolute rights. Americans have always struggled with pragmatism (read moral relativism) versus principle. We somehow realize that principles are necessary, even sturdy moral strictures that do not bend in every passing wind. Even obstinate people who cling to principle are essential to a society's long term healthiness. It's a pity more of them are not judges.
6
The Kansas state legislators are not arbitrarily imposing their own moral judgements on women but the judgment of the people who elected them. There is no animus toward women's rights but respect for the state's interest in protecting fetuses once they reach an advanced stage of development in the womb. The laws in question are reasonable and humane and recognize abortion in the later stages of pregnancy for what it is, and it is not simply a matter of women's reproductive rights but a balancing of those rights against the state's interest in the unborn who are human beings though not actual persons ab ovo whether women's rights advocates recognize that fact or not.
2
But protecting a child who is out of the womb is not part of the agenda.
1
I am not against abortion, or, as you so delicately put it, "a woman's right to choose".
But an editorial like this does enormous harm to the cause of abortion. It seems to trot out every old horse to argue the supposed evil in Kansas, tired old arguments that are no longer convincing anyone on either side.
The editorial complains about the Kansas' legislators use of language, yet the piece is laced with euphemisms and dubious assertions, not supported here by facts or evidence.
It indicts lawmakers for "imposing their own moral judgments", hypocritically ignoring its own massive moral judgments.
And it invokes Roe v. Wade, and thank you for that. That law, a huge mistake for abortion proponents, wrongly decided, did more for the cause of anti-abortionists that anything they could in their dreams imagine (see Justice Ginsburg on this topic). By inventing out of whole cloth non-existent and nonsensical constitutional "rights", that decision girded anti-abortion forces for a fight that has raged to this day for 40 years, and that abortion proponents may yet lose. Anti-abortion forces have done exactly what the gay movement has done with good success: fight it out state by state.
The gay movement got it right. A constitutional gay rights decision (on either side) would be wrong (as was the Defense of Marriage Act), but securing rights state by state, in the process educating the public (and, presumably evolving Mr. Obama), is bearing fruit.
Some people never learn.
But an editorial like this does enormous harm to the cause of abortion. It seems to trot out every old horse to argue the supposed evil in Kansas, tired old arguments that are no longer convincing anyone on either side.
The editorial complains about the Kansas' legislators use of language, yet the piece is laced with euphemisms and dubious assertions, not supported here by facts or evidence.
It indicts lawmakers for "imposing their own moral judgments", hypocritically ignoring its own massive moral judgments.
And it invokes Roe v. Wade, and thank you for that. That law, a huge mistake for abortion proponents, wrongly decided, did more for the cause of anti-abortionists that anything they could in their dreams imagine (see Justice Ginsburg on this topic). By inventing out of whole cloth non-existent and nonsensical constitutional "rights", that decision girded anti-abortion forces for a fight that has raged to this day for 40 years, and that abortion proponents may yet lose. Anti-abortion forces have done exactly what the gay movement has done with good success: fight it out state by state.
The gay movement got it right. A constitutional gay rights decision (on either side) would be wrong (as was the Defense of Marriage Act), but securing rights state by state, in the process educating the public (and, presumably evolving Mr. Obama), is bearing fruit.
Some people never learn.
2
I see. Roe v. Wade and all the other state court trials was a bad way to do things, but the marriage equality case currently before the Supreme Court together with all the other state court trials is a good way to do things.
Come again?
Come again?
While I support the gains the lesbian, gay and transgendered community has made over recent years here in America, I am saddened and outraged as a 66-year-old woman to see women's reproductive rights being taken away, day by day, state by state. And I am further puzzled by the fact that so many younger women seem not to notice this, or care that it is happening. I personally would never have an abortion but I support the right of any woman to make this highly personal decision and decry the manic, uneducated politicians who are working overtime to take it away. Medical doctors are also strangely silent on this topic. Decisions that should belong to a woman and her doctor are being, if you pardon the dictionary definition of the word, "aborted" by politicians and zealots.
10
Those of us who support a woman's right to choose stand on squishy ground. Ultimately we're supporting the position that it's legislatively ok to say that lives have unequal value, that the life of a mother can be worth more than that of her yet-to-be-born baby; that a fetus who will be born with severe deformities might be better off not living at all. These are not radical beliefs. They are, in my view, reasonable, compassionate and correct.
But Right-to-Lifers think of abortion as murder. That's a clean hard line and doesn't leave much room for negotiation. What's actually to be admired is that those fighting against abortion have, with notable exceptions, been amazingly civil despite the vehemence of their beliefs.
This is a matter of living together despite having fundamentally different premises on what life means. We should respect each other even though our premises are diametrically opposed.
But Right-to-Lifers think of abortion as murder. That's a clean hard line and doesn't leave much room for negotiation. What's actually to be admired is that those fighting against abortion have, with notable exceptions, been amazingly civil despite the vehemence of their beliefs.
This is a matter of living together despite having fundamentally different premises on what life means. We should respect each other even though our premises are diametrically opposed.
2
You have not witnessed the anti-abortionists that I have seen intimidating and screaming at women and doctors.
Both sides could come together to help make abortion rare but no one ever seems willing to do that.
All of this time and effort spent screaming at each other is stupid and exhausting.
All of this time and effort spent screaming at each other is stupid and exhausting.
You miss the point. Abortions have always happened, and will continue. What has changed is that they are not performed in back alleys where women could bleed to death and get horrible infections.
Liberals respect life. Most abortions are to evacuate a dead fetus or terminate a fetus who has severe problems or diseases.
Where are the clean hard lines when it comes to waging wars, torture, factory farming, poor babies after they are born? It seems conservative values are extremely hypocritical.
Liberals respect life. Most abortions are to evacuate a dead fetus or terminate a fetus who has severe problems or diseases.
Where are the clean hard lines when it comes to waging wars, torture, factory farming, poor babies after they are born? It seems conservative values are extremely hypocritical.
2
I don't understand why Attorney General Eric Holder is not pursuing civil rights violations by all states that have been hacking away at a woman's right to have an abortion. This has been going on for years and years and yet voter civil rights are the only ones that this administration has tackled. Further the civil rights of blacks are the only ones that seem to be of concern to Holder and Obama. Am I wrong that a woman's access to a medically safe abortion and reproductive health care is constitutionally protected? And yet states are rather quickly passing laws which violate a woman's right to control her own body. Where is the Federal government?
10
Perhaps the federal government is waiting for a female President.
The Supreme Court is not infallible (see Citizens United.) Despite Roe v. Wade, there is a legitimate dispute as to whether abortion is a medical procedure or murder.
My personal feel is that the mother has rights and the fetus has rights, and that sometimes these rights are in conflict. In certain circumstances (e.g. early in pregnancy or when the fetus has fatal abnormalities) the mother's rights prevail. In other circumstances (e.g. after viability, or in the case of abortion for sex selection) the fetus's rights prevail.
But these are only my opinions. Defining when a fetus becomes a human being with rights equal to that of the mother is a decision for the people, through their legislatures, to make.
My personal feel is that the mother has rights and the fetus has rights, and that sometimes these rights are in conflict. In certain circumstances (e.g. early in pregnancy or when the fetus has fatal abnormalities) the mother's rights prevail. In other circumstances (e.g. after viability, or in the case of abortion for sex selection) the fetus's rights prevail.
But these are only my opinions. Defining when a fetus becomes a human being with rights equal to that of the mother is a decision for the people, through their legislatures, to make.
UM NO. It is a decision for the woman who is pregnant to make along with her doctor.
What medical decisions are YOU willing to let a legislator decide on YOUR behalf?
What medical decisions are YOU willing to let a legislator decide on YOUR behalf?
1
This is what happens when religious zealots control state government. So many people stay home and do not bother to vote. These nutty legislators and governor were elected by about 30% of the electorate. Were all Kansans to vote, we would have a much more sane state.
Yes, these same zealots refuse to support the children after they are born. They want nothing to do with the problems of poor children. They subscribe to some sort of Republican boot-strap theory, placing the blame for poverty on those who are poor.
The inmates have taken over the asylum for the time-being. I truly hope more sane Kansans get out and vote in the next elections. Otherwise, we will have more nuts and fewer sane people legislating what women can do with their own bodies.
Yes, these same zealots refuse to support the children after they are born. They want nothing to do with the problems of poor children. They subscribe to some sort of Republican boot-strap theory, placing the blame for poverty on those who are poor.
The inmates have taken over the asylum for the time-being. I truly hope more sane Kansans get out and vote in the next elections. Otherwise, we will have more nuts and fewer sane people legislating what women can do with their own bodies.
17
Government can burden people with control of their bodies. It can draft people and send them off to kill and be killed.
It shouldn't in this case. It isn't because it can't, it is because it is the wrong thing to do.
It shouldn't in this case. It isn't because it can't, it is because it is the wrong thing to do.
7
Such hypocrisy. Sickening.
13
I would like to write that the extremist republican are criminals and deserve to be thrown in jail. They believe that the law is nor for them. They believe that they have ownership of a woman's body.
But they will defend themselves with their extremist believes and will not listen to anyone with a different opinion. They have become like Isis, the group they hate most, but who they resemble the most.
But they will defend themselves with their extremist believes and will not listen to anyone with a different opinion. They have become like Isis, the group they hate most, but who they resemble the most.
14
The law should have been amended to force Kansas legislators who voted for the bill to adopt each and every child born to women who want a second trimester abortion. In the alternative, they agree to pay the state the costs of raising each child until he or she turns 18, with an additional 4 years of college tuition upon acceptance.
22
These ultra-conservative legislatures will drag this country back into the Middle Ages. They will deny science until our children become semi-illiterate, cut government services until the United States becomes a Somalia-like third-world country and pass Sharia-like laws to control those lady parts and force religion down the throats of people that don't want anything to do with it.
19
Science tells us that a fetus is alive and has human DNA. religion tells us to repect all life and give human life the dignity it deserves.
Drama much? Ultra conservatives have very little power on a national level and the states where they are prevalent obviously have electorates who prefer this based on their voters. You don't appear to live in Kansas and may never, so why worry about it?
Women or parents who terminate second trimester do so often after making an anguishing choice to end a pregnancy that were it to continue would likely result in the death of the child shortly after birth or their extreme suffering. Parents who make such a choice do so out of compassion and love for their children to prevent them from unnecessary pain and should not have to have any lawmaker or anti-choice advocate insert themselves into the process.
17
It is a war against women. Come together and vote these men out.
23
There is only one, common sense thing to say: Of course, they try! It is KANSAS! It is Governor BROWNBACK! (In Kansas it is always the 20th Century, and will be forever. I bet most of their dogs are named Toto.)
8
Salesforce and Apple and General Motors and IBM and Google and Boeing and Lockheed Martin should all stop doing business in Kansas.Now!
It's wonderful that big business has showed solidarity with gays and lesbians. It made one proud of those who stood up to be counted against hateful laws in Indiana and Arkansas.
Now let's see a little solidarity with women. If a woman does not want to bring a child into the world, she should not be forced to do so. Bad for the woman. Bad for the child. Bad for the world.
It's wonderful that big business has showed solidarity with gays and lesbians. It made one proud of those who stood up to be counted against hateful laws in Indiana and Arkansas.
Now let's see a little solidarity with women. If a woman does not want to bring a child into the world, she should not be forced to do so. Bad for the woman. Bad for the child. Bad for the world.
24
Don't hold your breath on Business leaping into the fray to stand with females in any battle. They spoke long ago when they refused to pay equal wages for equal work. They like stealing that extra 20% off their female workers.
Business is not supporting the LGBT community. It is only supporting the G. The LBT's are purely incidental.
Business is not supporting the LGBT community. It is only supporting the G. The LBT's are purely incidental.
Big business has customers who are women and way too many women vote for people like Brownback.
If you really want this to change start reaching out to conservative women. Talk to them about health care, child care, contraception etc.
Until liberals are willing to do that these women will just keep voting for these jerks because they've been fooled into thinking that these guys care about babies.
If you really want this to change start reaching out to conservative women. Talk to them about health care, child care, contraception etc.
Until liberals are willing to do that these women will just keep voting for these jerks because they've been fooled into thinking that these guys care about babies.
1
Pretty soon the Kansas legislature will change the official title for Mr. Brownback from Governor to Mullah. But, and I hate to say it, women in this country are to blame for allowing this to happen. Especially young women. I don't get it, we're way past the days of Donna Reed and yet women still vote for their Republican lords, who will then control their lives. And if the reason is because of a woman's personal religious beliefs, religion was invented to keep women in their place. Duh!
18
Kansas women are in trouble and that includes women on either side of this issue. No one has the right to limit health care options for anyone. Period.
Again, this is no longer about abortion. This is about the future of women's lives in the state of Kansas. What's next? Keeping raped women in jail to force them to have a child of rape? All pregnant women, who live in Kanas, and have the funds to have an abortion after twenty weeks - are they going to be thrown in jail and hunted down? Beware women in Kansas, you are headed down the rabbit hole and your friends and neighbors, no matter their views on this topic, are all at risk. This is very dangerous for all women and very much so for all the eleven and twelve year old girls who barely know they are pregnant, much less give birth. Girls are not physically able to give birth without dire consequences. Will more Kansas men, who rape girls and women, see this law as encouraging? Rapists, now knowing that who they rape must bear their child, now have dizzying power. This law enables the rapist to gain full and total control of their victims. The violent act is sanctioned. Forced and unwanted pregnancies rewards the rapist's behavior. Kansas is very sick, and now, very unsafe for women; all women.
Again, this is no longer about abortion. This is about the future of women's lives in the state of Kansas. What's next? Keeping raped women in jail to force them to have a child of rape? All pregnant women, who live in Kanas, and have the funds to have an abortion after twenty weeks - are they going to be thrown in jail and hunted down? Beware women in Kansas, you are headed down the rabbit hole and your friends and neighbors, no matter their views on this topic, are all at risk. This is very dangerous for all women and very much so for all the eleven and twelve year old girls who barely know they are pregnant, much less give birth. Girls are not physically able to give birth without dire consequences. Will more Kansas men, who rape girls and women, see this law as encouraging? Rapists, now knowing that who they rape must bear their child, now have dizzying power. This law enables the rapist to gain full and total control of their victims. The violent act is sanctioned. Forced and unwanted pregnancies rewards the rapist's behavior. Kansas is very sick, and now, very unsafe for women; all women.
20
The ignorance in Kansas saddens and sickens me. I am ashamed to live in the same country as people who share these backward views. When I was 18.5 weeks pregnant, I learned at a routine anatomy scan that our baby had severe birth defects that would have likely killed him before birth or shortly after. Until then, all of my genetic screening tests came back clear. Receiving that diagnosis was devastating, and I spent the next two weeks seeking out second opinions and undergoing further genetic testing to learn as much as I could in order to make the best decision for me, my baby and my family. I ended up having a D&E at 20 weeks, 6 days, and received exceptional care by a team of loving and compassionate doctors and nurses. I was fully aware of what the procedure entailed because I had researched it in detail (and chose it over the alternative of labor and delivery), and I don't regret my decision in any way. People need to step up and educate themselves about WHY a woman would opt for a late-term abortion and WHY doctors prefer a D&E over labor and delivery. Are they too short-sighted to realize the devastating circumstances under which women make these decisions? Do they think we are too stupid to choose what's best for our unborn babies and ourselves? Are they too ignorant to realize that doctors, not lawmakers, are best equipped to judge the safety of a medical procedure?
44
Would it make any difference to you if you knew that Gallup found that 72% of aell Americans view abortion as murder?
Even here in the land of fruits and nuts, an LA Times poll found 57% view it as murder.
Even here in the land of fruits and nuts, an LA Times poll found 57% view it as murder.
Last night on the Daily Show Samantha Bee ran a segment called "Parenting with the Enemy". Apparently many states do not have laws that allow a rape victim who becomes pregrnant to terminate her rapist's parental rights:
http://thedailyshow.cc.com/videos/iaj0jk/parenting-with-the-enemy
Additional background in this CNN story:
http://www.cnn.com/2013/08/01/us/rapist-child-custody
So, by banning second trimester abortions Kansas essentially removes one of the last hopes for such victims to avoid adding insult to injury. Are these people for real?
http://thedailyshow.cc.com/videos/iaj0jk/parenting-with-the-enemy
Additional background in this CNN story:
http://www.cnn.com/2013/08/01/us/rapist-child-custody
So, by banning second trimester abortions Kansas essentially removes one of the last hopes for such victims to avoid adding insult to injury. Are these people for real?
30
Indeed, this whole issue appears to revolve around the putative rights of hit and run daddies to stake out women's bodies by impregnating them.
1
These are the same people who believe that everything in the Bible is literally true......except to feed the poor, comfort the widow, free the captive, and give up riches to follow Christ. Why expect compassion?
33
"The law makes no exceptions in cases of rape or incest, but only to save the life of the mother or to protect her from irreversible bodily harm."
I think it's their hypocrisy that's the most galling. If you believe abortion is murder, then who are you to make exceptions? Murder is terrible and must never be allowed...unless they tell you it's okay. Is God whispering in their ears, dictating the rules? (These people love war, so apparently that's all good.) Or is this the sin of Pride at work, playing God by declaring mandates and judgements? Oh they make my blood boil. Woman are adults and can make our own decisions! We do not need your permission or blessing to manage our own lives.
I think it's their hypocrisy that's the most galling. If you believe abortion is murder, then who are you to make exceptions? Murder is terrible and must never be allowed...unless they tell you it's okay. Is God whispering in their ears, dictating the rules? (These people love war, so apparently that's all good.) Or is this the sin of Pride at work, playing God by declaring mandates and judgements? Oh they make my blood boil. Woman are adults and can make our own decisions! We do not need your permission or blessing to manage our own lives.
18
Next state legislators will be banning hysterectomies as it may limit a woman's ability to have a child. Why does it appear that only aspects of women's health are legislated? Can anyone out there name a medical procedure that applies to men that has prohibitive legislation controlling it? Makes me think of Japan, which still hasn't approved the birth control pill, but in a flash approved the sale of viagra.
20
The same people that want to ban abortions are also the first ones to complain about tax dollars being spent on helping to care for the children after they are born, for example the WIC program. Let them pull themselves up by their own bootie straps. People also have to understand that banning legal abortions will not stop abortion. People were having abortions prior to Roe v. Wade, and will continue to have them, albeit in ways that will put the woman's life at greater risk.
20
A more truthful headline would be-- Kansas tries to stamp out women. Something really is wrong with Kansas--has anyone analyzed their water supply?
19
I'm a lifelong Democrat, I guess I'm a liberal in nearly every definition of it. However, I don't like abortion, personally. I've always been ready to step up and do what I must, should a woman I have been with might become pregnant. Abortion for me, was never an option. Thankfully, the situation never came to be where I had to decide. I'm also an adopted child who spent his youth in foster care. I have many mixed feelings about the issue. However, I'm strongly against federally funded abortion. This seem nothing more than tax money used as birth control or murder depending on which side you are on. Individuals should pay for these services not the government. I don't judge those who behave and think differently. But, I'd really rather my tax money to go education, and helping the unfortunate amongst us, not people who use it as "oh well, let's abort it". I'm all for funding reproductive services and women's health. Abortion is something else. Oh, and I'm agnostic.
4
Well that's just great, but I think you are missing the point. The issue here is much more fundamental. It is not how an abortion is paid for, but whether a woman has the right to make a choice to have an abortion at all.
Plenty of liberals don't like the idea of abortion. But a true liberal does not want the government denying a woman her CHOICE on whether to have an abortion.
And there's always the added irony that the party that espouses "limited government" wants to regualate the uterus.
And by the way, you said, "Abortion for me, was never an option." Obviously, becuase your a male. I like the way you said theat you never had to decide. It sounds like if that decision needed to be made, the actual preganant woman wouldn't have any input. Your liberalism is questionable.
Plenty of liberals don't like the idea of abortion. But a true liberal does not want the government denying a woman her CHOICE on whether to have an abortion.
And there's always the added irony that the party that espouses "limited government" wants to regualate the uterus.
And by the way, you said, "Abortion for me, was never an option." Obviously, becuase your a male. I like the way you said theat you never had to decide. It sounds like if that decision needed to be made, the actual preganant woman wouldn't have any input. Your liberalism is questionable.
1
I understand that your background has affected your feelings about this topic. You should try to understand, though, that most women don't just say "Oh well, let's abort it." It is most often an agonizing decision, and not made in haste. Women will get abortions even when they are against the law. We'll just go back to the time of botched abortions, infections, infertility and death by abortion. Why should half the population of a free, democratic society have their lives controlled by politicians?
1
Well said. The decision to abort is still a moral decision ( which a woman has a right to make) involving a human life.
It's time for women to abandon Kansas. The way that Sam Brownback has run the state into the grown, it resembles Afghanistan more than the US. Pretty soon, burquas will be required. Ladies, it's time to pull up stakes and bail. Why stay in a state where the government thinks so little of you?
20
I am all for women's rights to choose and I know that pregnancy can occur using ANY form of birth control altho with condom plus pill?? --- that said. Maybe it's time to put the sexual revolution to rest for the sake of the women, No woman should feel compelled to have sex no matter the circumstances. Say NO loudly. Steve Harvey has a 90 day rule -- no sex for three months.. cerainly more sane than the three date rule of my day. (Also loved how from 1962-1966 Men forgot how to put on a condom!1)
I realize I am avoiding the main issue here but hey -- we all know how pregnancy usually occurs.
I realize I am avoiding the main issue here but hey -- we all know how pregnancy usually occurs.
Great idea. How about Kansas mandates that all males carry condoms all the time, sort of like a driver's license. Let's put some responsibility on the men for a change.
How about demanding that every pregnancy unwanted by the woman must be raised by the male/sperm donor?
12
Agreed, but only if he can bring a child into this world by himself, otherwise make the life that requires two adults to be the responsibility of those two adults.
Funny enough, tragic enough, while Kansas, formerly --in spite of its reputation-- a land of pragmatism and above everything, politeness.
I guess Mr. Brownback and his fellow Republican *men* want many more children to be born, some of them with birth defects and very likely to end in welfare, but do not want --given recent laws passed in the last few weeks in the Kansas legislature-- that these new welfare-recipient Kansans use public swimming pools, eat seafood, or even be able to take more than $25 dollars of their public benefits out of their cash benefits.
Which make even less sense out of a state that is fast becoming a basket case depending on the rest of the Union to pay its bills.
I guess Mr. Brownback and his fellow Republican *men* want many more children to be born, some of them with birth defects and very likely to end in welfare, but do not want --given recent laws passed in the last few weeks in the Kansas legislature-- that these new welfare-recipient Kansans use public swimming pools, eat seafood, or even be able to take more than $25 dollars of their public benefits out of their cash benefits.
Which make even less sense out of a state that is fast becoming a basket case depending on the rest of the Union to pay its bills.
16
I don't have clue as to the answer to this question: are vasectomies illegal in Kansas? How do women in Kansas feel about them, one way or another. Has Sam Brownback had one? Should he? How do women in Kansas feel about that?
16
That's a darned good question.
Sam Brownback has been married for 33 years and only has 5 children. Ask him. I'd like to know.
Please save this country from states like Kansas, and, more importantly, please save this country from the Republican Party, which is doing its best to destroy this country !!!
25
States are enablement of unequal protection of the law.
If men carried fetuses to term, abortion would be sacrosanct.
8
What is the penalty? Lethal injection?
9
With all these "innovative" and "forward thinking" policy initiatives in Kansas, I can only assume that it is being swamped with new residents and businesses, jobs, jobs, jobs, investment and tourists.
The envy of the other 49 states and governors.
The envy of the other 49 states and governors.
7
Dear Kansas? How comfortable is that bed you made yourselves over there?
6
Do you not feel a little queasy writing "which involves dilating the cervix and removing the fetus, often in parts"? Or have you so lost your sense of humanity that it simply rolls off of your fingers?
Either way, it matters little to me. Hooray Governor Brownback. For your courage. Your concern for the welfare of all people. And for starting an inevitable change of heart.
Either way, it matters little to me. Hooray Governor Brownback. For your courage. Your concern for the welfare of all people. And for starting an inevitable change of heart.
4
Brownback could care less about children born or unborn. If he cared he'd make sure that those children have proper nutrition, medical care (before and after birth), education etc. Don't be fooled into thinking that this is because he cares about anyone.
"Either way, it matters little to me."
Yeah. We got that.
Yeah. We got that.
Apparently, Dorothy wasn't kidding when she said, "Toto, we're not in Kansas anymore." Seems like people living in the Jayhawk state are actually living in the Land of Oz. Or some other such bizarre place.
9
We are all unhappy about abortion. And when we learn more about the procedures, it becomes even more difficult. But there are times when a fetus (which is not a baby) doesn't grow correctly and won't survive anyway. Sometimes it will naturally cause a miscarriage. Sometimes it naturally causes a stillbirth. My own mother had a miscarriage in the 1940s and my aunt had a stillbirth in the 1950s. These are difficult events. A friend of mine had a stillbirth with a baby with no head. Difficult enough to make her and her husband make no further attempt at having children.
When a fetus isn't viable we need to accept that that is its life. It is having exactly the length of life it could manage, whether we call that divine intervention, predetermination, or karma. We mourn. But we must accept that sometimes this is the case. A woman's life should not be threatened by a pregnancy and a nonviable fetus, heartbeat or no, that is not going to make it.
In addition, women must be able to choose their life path. I think we can all agree that later term abortions are to be avoided. And, looking at the stats, they are. They are few, and they are really about a pregnancy gone wrong. Most abortions and miscarriages are very early. This decision by women to care for themselves so that they may later be able to raise a child must remain with the women. This must be a decision made by the woman and her doctor. We cannot go back to the days of backstreet abortions. We simply can't.
When a fetus isn't viable we need to accept that that is its life. It is having exactly the length of life it could manage, whether we call that divine intervention, predetermination, or karma. We mourn. But we must accept that sometimes this is the case. A woman's life should not be threatened by a pregnancy and a nonviable fetus, heartbeat or no, that is not going to make it.
In addition, women must be able to choose their life path. I think we can all agree that later term abortions are to be avoided. And, looking at the stats, they are. They are few, and they are really about a pregnancy gone wrong. Most abortions and miscarriages are very early. This decision by women to care for themselves so that they may later be able to raise a child must remain with the women. This must be a decision made by the woman and her doctor. We cannot go back to the days of backstreet abortions. We simply can't.
13
it looks to me that it is public policy in the US to shame people into having disabled children. I think it would be much wiser to remove the shame of clearing the way to try again for a healthy child.
Well stated and thank you, but because of this article I feel I must add that forcing a twelve-year old to bear her father's seed - even if such seed is "perfect" - reduces that child to sexual slavery, and what kind of monster would force a child to do that?
Brownback and his allies are putting criminals and criminal behavior over the citizens of Kansas.
Kansas has now become a rogue state.
Brownback and his allies are putting criminals and criminal behavior over the citizens of Kansas.
Kansas has now become a rogue state.
What did you expect? It is Kansas after all. The last of our friends, relatives and business owners we know left the state last year turning out the lights and leaving behind Kanasasistan to their own populace. The college graduates that we mentor have now taken KU or KSU off their list of places to apply for graduate school.
14
interesting data. Kansas had over 3700 abortions reported last year by their citizens. Since 2005, the kansas birth rate for teenagers stopped declining as fast as the US average and in 2013 the teen birth rate is now higher than the US by 3 percentage points. (All Kansas government data). Under Gov. Brownback, it is apparent that their revised family planning standards is not working and making the problem worse. Congratulations
Any time a Republican says they want to get Government off our backs, just say "Kansas Abortion" or "Indiana Discriminators" or "Arkansas 19th-centurians" .
I'm glad to have been around when Roe v Wade became the Law of the Land, and to have it serve so many women these past 42 years.
Sam Brownback is an enemy to women. There goes another state to avoid at all costs . . .
I'm glad to have been around when Roe v Wade became the Law of the Land, and to have it serve so many women these past 42 years.
Sam Brownback is an enemy to women. There goes another state to avoid at all costs . . .
25
What America needs is the equivalent of the late Canadian Dr. Henry Morgentaler. In the fight for legal safe abortions, he actually went to jail to defend women's rights. He made abortions safe and legal for Canadian women.
21
What America needs is more emphasis on education (particularly sex education), affordable health care and good access to contraception. Both left and right should be uniting on these things.
The American people cannot agree on evolution. What are you thinking?
Big government conservatives want to make the uterus of every woman to become government-owned property, and evidently many Americans, including many women, agree. But there really is no difference between US Republicans and the Central Committee of the Chinese Community Party who it comes to who decides what will and will not be allowed.
22
I guess Kansas must have solved all the budget problems created by Brownback's huge tax cuts so that they could spend time on things like this.
14
Kansas has become an experiment in Republican-Conservative Christian ideology at all policy levels. It won't be long before someone with an open mind, who still lives in Kansas, to challenge a particular law all the way to the Supreme Court. After losing, the current government is likely to try to find a way to ignore or pass new legislation to get around it as they have done with public education funding. According to Christian theology women are subservient to men for seducing man into original sin and must therefore suffer, so this how women are to be treated. Of course we are all not Christians, but that makes little difference in Kansas. The state is already financially a wreck because of the Republican-Conservative experiment, so all it would take is a few companies pulling out to result in bankruptcy. Like Jennifer, I am wondering when corporate outrage will result in the same kind of action as the Indiana Religious Freedom law?
18
Unclebugs, I've read Genesis. Please read it again and I can assure you that there is NO seducing going on.
"Original sin" popped up in the second century with the 'Church Fathers' to demonize women, but, in truth, I have no idea what they were reading.
"Original sin" popped up in the second century with the 'Church Fathers' to demonize women, but, in truth, I have no idea what they were reading.
It has always seemed to me that the anti-abortion people make a huge moral issue over "murdering" an early stage fetus that has none of the sentient attributes of a human being but these same people have no moral qualms about ignoring all the fetuses that are born out of wedlock and into appalling conditions in which they lack any semblance of a fair chance for a decent life. When the anti-abortionists start putting as much energy into helping those born into squalid conditions to get educations and jobs as they put into killing physicians and depriving women of the right to control their bodies, we can honor the sincerity of their actions. Until then there is something terribly phony about the self-righteous anti-abortion talk that has tears running down its cheeks over non-sentient fetuses but only cold scorn for fetuses that find themselves born into impossibly difficult living outlooks.
19
I think abortion should be legal up until a point. But I do want to vomit when I read about the details of how the procedure is conducted. My wife and a close friend both had abortions and both feel that they were very hard and emotionally difficult experiences that affect them till this day--and not because of guilt foisted on them.
We want to think that there is always a solution in life. Maybe things are sometime gruesome and hard.
We want to think that there is always a solution in life. Maybe things are sometime gruesome and hard.
7
There are plenty of medical procedures that make me want to vomit. Colostomy bags, catheters, endoscopies, pulling teeth, where they break the teeth into multiple little pieces and then take the tooth out one little piece at a time, all while the person on the dentist chair is awake. The thought of having a tooth extracted that way, to me, is the stuff of nightmares. I would probably pass out if I was ever forced to witness such a thing. But the fact that these medical procedures are gross when you break them down really isn't relevant in any way to their morality.
The Founding Fathers expected that leaders like Brownback,if they had the power, would seek to impose their religious dictates on the rest of us. His fellow adherents in the Supreme Court did all they could to further sectarian belief in the execrable Hobby Lobby decision. The Founders wrote the 1st Amendment the way they did precisely to guard against the religious zealots,of which they had plenty in their day; to protect minorities from religious persecution, and to keep clerics from undermining the republican beliefs they wrote into the Constitution. If the next president is a Republican, Scalia will be able to retire in peace, comforted by knowing that he'll be replaced by another pig headed believer.
12
The irony of the conservative mantra to voters about keeping the government out of our lives is that they legislate the exact opposite, particularly the lives of females.
I make a simple demand: Conservatives, stay away from and out of my knickers, I am quite capable of making intelligent decisions about my body and its functions, all of which are my personal property.
Thanks for reading my comments.
I make a simple demand: Conservatives, stay away from and out of my knickers, I am quite capable of making intelligent decisions about my body and its functions, all of which are my personal property.
Thanks for reading my comments.
22
It is absurd that a state which holds life so sacred has passed laws to dilute concealed weapons regulations, allowing Kansans to buy handguns without background checks, permits or safety training.
Children in households with loaded weapons and untrained adults are not safe. Nor are the adults.
Children in households with loaded weapons and untrained adults are not safe. Nor are the adults.
21
No sane, ethical, licensed physician in the United States performs a voluntary abortion after viability (24 weeks) simply because the woman asks. These late term abortions are extremely rare - approximately 500 a year - and only performed in an extreme complication of the pregnancy, terminal malformation of the fetus, an incomplete miscarriage, or when the mother's health or life is in danger if the pregnancy were allowed to continue naturally. The doctors must perform these methods as necessary.
Look up Savita Halappanavar's death in Ireland. That will be the result of this legislation.
It is a despicable myth of the anti-abortion propaganda folks to spin this circumstance as a voluntary procedure performed on a woman who simply decided after 24 weeks of pregnancy that she didn't want the baby.
Legislators should not practice medicine by remote control.
Look up Savita Halappanavar's death in Ireland. That will be the result of this legislation.
It is a despicable myth of the anti-abortion propaganda folks to spin this circumstance as a voluntary procedure performed on a woman who simply decided after 24 weeks of pregnancy that she didn't want the baby.
Legislators should not practice medicine by remote control.
196
OK.
Gov. Sam Brownback promised his extreme policies would create an economic and social juggernaut in Kansas.
So the result was Boeing, the largest employer, abandoned the state and several state credit rating downgrades.
I doubt there's a major company in the nation that is considering anchoring itself in Kansas.
But at least the Free Market Republican Conservatives in Kansas can count on federal Ethanol Subsidies.
Gov. Sam Brownback promised his extreme policies would create an economic and social juggernaut in Kansas.
So the result was Boeing, the largest employer, abandoned the state and several state credit rating downgrades.
I doubt there's a major company in the nation that is considering anchoring itself in Kansas.
But at least the Free Market Republican Conservatives in Kansas can count on federal Ethanol Subsidies.
7
Like our continual warmongering, abortion activists have not suffered under the consequences of their being no legal abortions available.
They don't have to sit in the emergency rooms as women come in after mutilating themselves to get rid of the baby of a rapist, or a liar, or a relative.
Doctors that know about this and could speak to it are over 80 years old now.
And the warmongers do not remember WW II, or deferred from the draft for Vietnam.
War is hell. Men lie and rape. The laws we have in place are there to cope with situations the naive have never experienced. Shame on them for their thoughtlessness and lack of understanding of their forebears.
They don't have to sit in the emergency rooms as women come in after mutilating themselves to get rid of the baby of a rapist, or a liar, or a relative.
Doctors that know about this and could speak to it are over 80 years old now.
And the warmongers do not remember WW II, or deferred from the draft for Vietnam.
War is hell. Men lie and rape. The laws we have in place are there to cope with situations the naive have never experienced. Shame on them for their thoughtlessness and lack of understanding of their forebears.
12
It's Brownback. It's Kansas. Again: This is taking place in Kansas. This is the state where Brownback and his cronies illegally dismantled the Board of Education, destroyed public school funding, attempted to destroy Medicare, refuse to raise the minimum wage and, most shockingly, won reelection. Disgusting, disturbing, unethical, but not at all surprising. There's a reason I left Kansas at 18 for NYC. The core issue is, how do we stop 'lawmakers' who have little interest in their constituents' opinions, from ingesting their moral credo into laws that apply to people who don't follow their beliefs or purportedly 'Christian' morals, which are by far not taken to this extreme by many Christians.
17
Someone needs to check out the voting machines. Or, simply bypass them and go for full Vote-By-Mail.
I guess the NY Times editorial board never took a course in ethics. I have never seen a balanced discussion of the abortion issue in its pages.
9
You could probably be a bit specific in your criticism. Your vague comments don't add much to the discussion.
Nor the Second Amendment rights of citizens.
And of course these restrictive, meddling legislators will provide pre-natal care, hospitalization for mother and infant, pre-school services, food, housing, education, etc. to ease the financial, not to mention emotional, burden they've imposed upon the mother and family. This is charitable Christian conservatism?
11
No one has the moral right to kill another person. Abortion is murder. Why is this even open to debate?
2
And what do you think about war, capital punishment, self defense, and police killings? This is about a woman's right to choose, and her absolute right to decide about her own body in light of her medical condition, personal situation, and the factors such as rape, incest, or other.
Most people do not believe as you do. Problem for you?
and if the mother's life is in danger you prefer to murder her, by not allowing this procedure? The life of a living, breathing human being over a fetus?
1
HOW can this possibly be a good thing?
Reminds me of my dad, a Surgeon, committing SUICIDE, after he did the SECOND abortion on two (2) different nuns.....
WHAT do we do with this kind of information?
Reminds me of my dad, a Surgeon, committing SUICIDE, after he did the SECOND abortion on two (2) different nuns.....
WHAT do we do with this kind of information?
1
Why do women bother to live in Kansas with the increasing numbers of "gynoticians" (gynecologist +politicians) in the state?
5
Brownback; another dinosaur who doesn't realize he is extinct.
9
I don't understand people who claim to be Christian, and in so doing, declare that abortion is immoral, etc., while in the same breath supporting the death penalty. They get very weepy about fetuses NOT in their own bodies, but if that kid grows up to do something atrocious and violent, they have no problem strapping the person up and poisoning them.
14
How about helping women with their pregnancy, instead of bullying them? Abortions due to economic reasons will be avoided by passing laws for paid maternity leave. The US is the only developed country that doesn't guarantee paid maternity leave. And, yes, helping women actually means helping families (and men) too.
8
Restricting access to safe, legal abortions seems to be a major effort by Republicans in many of our states. These new laws, impacting hundreds of medical practices and hundreds of thousands of young American women will be a hardship on them for decades to come. It is a shame that these legislators cannot live more honest lives, and refuse to enact senseless, mean spirited legislation that only causes hardship to others; mostly poor, young female others. Shame on them for selling these restrictions as serving some higher moral purpose, of which only they and their ilk are aware. Shame.
5
I'm wondering how many of these legislatures responded to questions about mandatory vaccinations with some variation of "I'm not a doctor". Now, suddenly, they know even more than doctors?
19
Century of history and many many published medical studies have demonstrated, you can't stamp out abortion. You can only make it less accessible and more dangerous.
Someone needs to give these born again repubs a lesson on female reproductive anatomy. The uterus is accessible, very accessible. Does Kansas want the female reproductive tract to be treated in a clean professional environment between a doctor and patient, or in a back room of a pharmacy?
Someone needs to give these born again repubs a lesson on female reproductive anatomy. The uterus is accessible, very accessible. Does Kansas want the female reproductive tract to be treated in a clean professional environment between a doctor and patient, or in a back room of a pharmacy?
6
I propose new legislation for Kansas. Every male who reaches puberty should be forced to have a state paid vasectomy to be reversed at the age of 25 but only under certain conditions. Those conditions will be determined by a panel of women.
15
Kansas is now the state where all conservative Republican dreams are made true. It is doing the country a great service in showing voters in other states just how ineffective and even destructive the GOP values of misogyny, homophobia, xenophobia, plutocracy and science denial can be when implemented. The economy of Kansas is imploding under the past five years of Republican control. Workers, women, and minorities are earning less money, have fewer jobs, and fewer civil liberties. The poor are getting even poorer. Education is approaching third world conditions. BUT--the rich who fund the elections of these conservative Republicans are doing well. As long as the voters of Kansas keep electing these wingnuts they deserve the bad treatment that follows.
14
Forcing a women to carry to term a 4 month old fetus conceived in rape or incest treats women like cows at best, incubators at worst. My God, who is running Kansas, ISIS?
19
Keep in mind: "This is Kansas, after all, where anti-evolution forces several times have made the state a national laughingstock with their obsession of trying to stop real science from being taught in classrooms."
http://www.kansascity.com/opinion/opn-columns-blogs/yael-t-abouhalkah/ar...
http://www.kansascity.com/opinion/opn-columns-blogs/yael-t-abouhalkah/ar...
13
Gov Brownback appears to be an astute politician. Promulgate controversial legislation that both keeps the base happy and generates noise to push discussion of his disastrous tax cuts out of the media spotlight. Impressive!
Dorothy was lucky. For a while.
Dorothy was lucky. For a while.
8
The people of Kansas elect these zealots. One has to wonder what the heck they were thinking.
Unfortunately, we no longer have a supreme court which can be considered the ultimate (reasonable) voice of the constitution which could normally be called upon to keep folks like this in check.
Unfortunately, we no longer have a supreme court which can be considered the ultimate (reasonable) voice of the constitution which could normally be called upon to keep folks like this in check.
8
Brownback and his fellow citizens are throwbacks to an earlier, nastier age when women were subordinates without rights and where the poor were punished for the "sin" of poverty. Driven by such a twisted worldview, Kansans are poised to turn their state into a moral, social and cultural backwater that any sane person would avoid at all hazards.
11
I believe that being forcing a woman to carry an accidental and unwanted pregnancy to term is akin to enslaving that woman for the 20 or years that it takes to produce and raise a child. I strongly oppose any law that would take away my freedom by making demands on my life choices concerning my own body. My body belongs to me, not to the state. If Kansas puts this burden on their citizens, I expect families will be torn apart with strife, and the divorce rate will skyrocket.
10
If only this were only about ending abortions. Sadly, this is part of the same story as refusing birth control coverage in employer insurance policies, "modesty fashion shows", hair coverings and the like: it is about telling women that they can't have control of their own bodies and that powerful men know what's best: In short these men, in the guise of religious beliefs, want to be able to tell women how to live. Men can't control their urges (see article today on Orthodox men on planes), so women need to accommodate, cover up, and if those urges win out -- women should just live with the consequences.
11
Kansas is 83% white vs 51% white nationally. If you restrict birth control and ban abortion, you get more white babies. Simple math. Same math aoplies nationally. If you force more women to give birth at equal rates, then you stop the turn of the country from becoming less than a 51% white. So white ladies, they seem to want you to keep your numbers up.
2
If I hear another anti-choice warrior call themselves pro life, I'm going to throw up. They're not pro life.
.
In February of this year, Kansas Governor Brownback announced that he was cutting $45 million from that state's Public schools. He has proudly proclaimed that he will not expand Medicaid in his state either - so low income children are out of luck.
.
I'm sorry, but in my book you can't consider yourself pro life, and then turn around and slash education and children's health care. It just doesn't work. No, if you stand opposed to abortion, while simultaneously slashing health care and education: you're just pro birth; not pro life.
.
In February of this year, Kansas Governor Brownback announced that he was cutting $45 million from that state's Public schools. He has proudly proclaimed that he will not expand Medicaid in his state either - so low income children are out of luck.
.
I'm sorry, but in my book you can't consider yourself pro life, and then turn around and slash education and children's health care. It just doesn't work. No, if you stand opposed to abortion, while simultaneously slashing health care and education: you're just pro birth; not pro life.
15
You're absolutely right but this kind of talk isn't working. I honestly believe that many of these voters could be reached if we put some effort into it.
Democrats should start by talking about the things that both sides have in common, the need for health care, contraception, child care etc. and pro choice people should be honest, admit that abortion is a horrible choice to have to make, stress responsible behavior to reduce the need for them etc.
Democrats should start by talking about the things that both sides have in common, the need for health care, contraception, child care etc. and pro choice people should be honest, admit that abortion is a horrible choice to have to make, stress responsible behavior to reduce the need for them etc.
Kansas ban on second trimester abortion is just the latest example of the continued religious-fueled patriarchal laws shackling women and their quest for reproductive freedom. These laws, of course, hurt mostly those already impoverished, who cannot afford to travel to another state, by burdening them with too many children, blocking them from access to birth control, and, for those who are young and unwed, preventing them from pursuing an education and a career. And where is Kansas and its compassionate Christian fundamentalists when the baby arrives? Are they providing increased Food Stamps, child care, pre-school, and pre-K services? This is all mean-spirited political pandering and religious hypocrisy. I hope the Supreme Court will find this and other similar laws Unconstitutional.
10
I always find it perplexing when a man is deciding what a woman should do with her body. If the roles were reversed I wonder if Mr Brownback would think any differently.
7
I always find it interesting that the people who make these laws on abortion are the same who cut back the social safety net needed by the poor to keep their children healthy. It must be a cruel land out there in Kansas, good Christians all I am sure.
10
If Kansas (or anyone else) wants to eliminate unintended/unwanted pregnancies (that is, if it wants to help people), it should fund Planned Parenthood.
17
Since its inception as John Brown's cauldron of righteousness, rural Kansas has seen itself as a crucible of religious and social intent. Here in Lawrence, Kansas, we are seen as members of a dwindling cult of liberal atheists. Kansas legislators are by and large from counties with many churches and few people. Perhaps these decisions need to be tested here, tried here, and rejected here. This isn't really about social or religious freedom in Kansas, it's about God's last experiment in theocracy on the bitter plains. My church refers to God as "she" by the way, it is the oldest church in Kansas, is utterly despised in the hustings, and I believe Obama visited us on a swing through. Not everyone here holds with Brownback's ilk, but the empty prairie votes like it burns, as we say.
8
So John Brown's anti-slavery campaign was a bad thing?
1
These red states. like Kansas, are dagging the rest of us down with their phony righteousness. Indiana? same. Texas? same outdated laws concerning abortion and drug use. Kansas is suing Colorado, where I live, because they claim we are causing a rise in criminality with our legal pot. But--as usual with the "reds"--this is not based in reality.
So CO pot is somehow kept out of Kansas? What has already happened here in the the real world? Mexican drug cartels fill the demand, with lower grade,
often poisonous product, along with tar heroin and crystal meth. which are their specialties--as their pot is low quality, and we are proudly growing them out of the pot business.
So Kansas, wake up and join the 21st century. Will you be suing us for providing LEGAL abortions as well as for weed?
So CO pot is somehow kept out of Kansas? What has already happened here in the the real world? Mexican drug cartels fill the demand, with lower grade,
often poisonous product, along with tar heroin and crystal meth. which are their specialties--as their pot is low quality, and we are proudly growing them out of the pot business.
So Kansas, wake up and join the 21st century. Will you be suing us for providing LEGAL abortions as well as for weed?
2
These feeble, vindictive measures will fail unless they are taken to their only logical extreme.
Kansas and like-minded states have to require all women of age to register as sexually active, and to report every instance where a person might have been conceived. It isn't possible to extend Constitutional protection to the unborn unless the authorities know they exist, so the legal onus must be on the woman to say she is in fact engaging in sexual activity, and to prove that no citizen was conceived and then terminated. She must report both the positive and the negative outcomes of every potential fertilization.
Kansas has to say that the rights of hypothetical Americans outweigh the rights of actual Americans for this have any effect. Otherwise, all this is is another nasty, ineffectual gesture by fanatical radicals.
Kansas and like-minded states have to require all women of age to register as sexually active, and to report every instance where a person might have been conceived. It isn't possible to extend Constitutional protection to the unborn unless the authorities know they exist, so the legal onus must be on the woman to say she is in fact engaging in sexual activity, and to prove that no citizen was conceived and then terminated. She must report both the positive and the negative outcomes of every potential fertilization.
Kansas has to say that the rights of hypothetical Americans outweigh the rights of actual Americans for this have any effect. Otherwise, all this is is another nasty, ineffectual gesture by fanatical radicals.
6
At the rate Brownback and co are going, they won't have to worry about legislating against abortion: no woman will in her right mind move to Kansas, and any young woman who can think for herself will leave. I'm Pro-choice, and I certainly choose not to move to Kansas (not even visit!). Before long, there won't be any women left in Kansas. Abortion 'problem' solved!
3
States should criminalize causing an unwanted pregnancy. Men who cause such a pregnancy must serve time. Then women won't have to bear this burden alone. During their sentence, the men can listen to mandatory lectures about how republicans favor liberty for all while viewing films of legislatures passing laws that protect businesses that do not serve same-sex couples getting married.
9
I read somewhere that it can cost a quarter of a million dollars to raise a child to the age of 18. According to Planned Parenthood, about 80% of abortions are sought by women who can't afford another child. Since Gov. Brownback doesn't like to raise taxes, especially to assist the poor, who will pay the cost of raising destitute children, many of whom may have special needs?
9
The bottom line is that woman are going to die because of this. Other women will permanently lose their fertility. And the Kansas Legislature and it's Governor all hve their collective heads rammed so far up into their ideology that none of them care. It's sad that it will take the death of a woman and a lawsuit to do anything about it. I sincerely hope that woman isn't you, a family memeber or a friend.
2
Nowhere in the Bible is there a prohibition against abortion. Unhappily, the holy Bible is the front line for the legion of the self-righteous. These backward politicians from a backward state use their legislative forceps, scissors and other sharp instruments to extract, in whole or in parts, the pain of a woman's personal, private, intimate choice. I cannot imagine the physical consequences of undergoing this procedure, nor the unimaginable emotional torment that precedes it. But it's none of my business because I don't have a uterus. Governor Brownback and his posse of clinic shutdown cowboys ride the range, armed with pointed objects, littering the landscape with guilt trips and promises of hell. They don't even bother with the fatuous claim that they ride the range for the good of society or from genuinely-held religious scruples. They are domestic terrorists in suits. An abortion is a personal, private medical matter; the procedure is covered by medical insurance in every first-world country. Except ours.
10
Small government conservatives - small enough to fit in a uterus.
But it's just typical: they care about you before you're born and once you're a vegetable. Anything in between? Tough cookies.
But it's just typical: they care about you before you're born and once you're a vegetable. Anything in between? Tough cookies.
5
I presume this law comes with additional changes to Kansas' maternity leave policies, increased funding for day care and early child education, child and mother health care benefits, a robust transformation of the public sexual education curriculum, and improved access to reliable forms of contraception, right? And, of course, the death penalty was simultaneously repealed?
Is consistent sanctimony too much to ask?
Is consistent sanctimony too much to ask?
190
What we need is a Freedom From Religion Act and get religion out of the public discourse.
9
Abortions existed for hundreds of years before it became an an issue today. There were done quietly and without fanfare. It was discussed by Hebrew scholars in around the time of Christ. The argument was that if a woman doesn't want to have a child for what ever reason, she shouldn't have it, because she wouldn't be inclined to take care of it. Furthermore she and her offspring would be destined to to live in abject poverty. Another reason is that she is the one who carries it and the one who will take care of it. It is entirely choice.
In Judaism this issue has been settled.
Now, can a Jewish woman in Arkansas have an abortion which is her right in her religion?
What happens to the freedom of religion when two religions collide? (They usually stay out of each others' business)
Does the state of Arkansas which is supposed to be secular, now has the right by law to deny this woman her religious right
based on another religious tenet imposed by the state?
It sounds confusing and contradictory. On the basis of this simple argument the state should stay out of religion. This Is bad judgment can lead to religious conflicts.
In Judaism this issue has been settled.
Now, can a Jewish woman in Arkansas have an abortion which is her right in her religion?
What happens to the freedom of religion when two religions collide? (They usually stay out of each others' business)
Does the state of Arkansas which is supposed to be secular, now has the right by law to deny this woman her religious right
based on another religious tenet imposed by the state?
It sounds confusing and contradictory. On the basis of this simple argument the state should stay out of religion. This Is bad judgment can lead to religious conflicts.
6
Kansas: Another #NoGoState where only straight white males have liberty, freedom and security under our Constitution, Bill of Rights and flag. Oh, did I forget "under God?"
8
Another sociopath GOP governor on the loose.
12
Thank you Koch bros.
Kansas's Republican government is in an ideological choosing mood. It chooses heavy deficits and lowered educational and roads spending to lower taxes on the rich. It chooses to allow citizens to carry guns without permits. It chooses to limit women's choice, as well as saving its welfare population from wasting its money on swimming pools and seafood and ATM withdrawals above $25/day. A prescription for an imploding economy and an imploding society.
6
Is this really what state legislators should be spending their time on?
Do they really view this as the 'peoples' business'.
I don't believe this for a minute.
What it shows is that narrow-minded and theologically driven people believe that everyone else should believe, and act, as they do.
Welcome to the theocracy.
Do they really view this as the 'peoples' business'.
I don't believe this for a minute.
What it shows is that narrow-minded and theologically driven people believe that everyone else should believe, and act, as they do.
Welcome to the theocracy.
1
Some here have raised the question of why abortion opponents' concern for life seems to end at the birth of the child. I think the answer lies in fact that for at least a certain subset of abortion opponents, what truly drives them is less a matter of concern for the fetus than it is fear that people will be able to engage in sexual relations of which they disapprove without incurring negative, life-altering consequences. In support of this contention, I invite readers to consider how many of this very same subset of abortion opponents likewise oppose sex education and education concerning birth control methods in schools, as well as education concerning safer sex.
1
What's the matter with Kansas?
They, at least the politicians, believe in time travel. Backwards, that is!
They, at least the politicians, believe in time travel. Backwards, that is!
4
And this is why I will never vote for a socially conservative Republican, even though I love their fiscally conservative policies
4
They don't have fiscally conservative ideas. Corporate welfare, government shutdowns, damaging the environment.... None of these things are fiscally conservative.
It wouldn't surprise me if they also tried to make it illegal to have a miscarriage after 20 weeks.
1
Purvi Patel, of Indiana, had a miscarriage and is now serving 20 years for it. To support her, go to the Purvi Patel Action Group on Facebook. The prosecution used a 17th century "medical" test on the fetus (a procedure long discredited) as evidence that it was breathing when miscarried. But how can a fetus without developed lungs breathe? The court allowed it. A fetus is not really able to live on its own before 7 months without serious support, and at 20 weeks is very undeveloped.
Convicted of feticide, Patel will serve 20 years.
The 20 weeks thing is based--again--on non-science. They claim a fetus feels pain but at 20 weeks the neurological system isn't developed enough to feel pain. Between 20 and 25 weeks is when many of the serious deformities begin to show up, being undetectable before. So a second trimester abortion (about 10% of all abortions) is about a non-viable fetus that could harm the mother or kill her.
These men and the women who support them have lost their minds. Refusing science and compassion. Let's hope none of them raise any more children.
Convicted of feticide, Patel will serve 20 years.
The 20 weeks thing is based--again--on non-science. They claim a fetus feels pain but at 20 weeks the neurological system isn't developed enough to feel pain. Between 20 and 25 weeks is when many of the serious deformities begin to show up, being undetectable before. So a second trimester abortion (about 10% of all abortions) is about a non-viable fetus that could harm the mother or kill her.
These men and the women who support them have lost their minds. Refusing science and compassion. Let's hope none of them raise any more children.
Do you realize that in Germany or France it is illegal to have an abortion after the first trimester? Almost nowhere in the civilized world can a woman choose to abort her baby without any restriction. Wake up, and educate yourself.
Considering that Kansas wanted to change its science textbooks to substitute "intelligent design" for evolution, it is not surprising that it is equally primitive and theocratic in its treatment of women and medicine. Women may have to start considering which states support women's rights when they plan their careers, families and futures. These backwards states pretty soon will be stoning adulterers and forcing other Sharia laws on women.
2
This is clearly a difficult and emotional issue, which would benefit from a greater effort on both sides of the problem to understand the emotions and reasoning of the opposing viewpoint.
An article like this, which uses terms such as "anti-choice armies" and "staunch foe of a woman's right to choose" incorrectly characterizes the views of those opposed to abortion, in much the same way that the labels "pro-abortion" or "anti-life" would incorrectly characterize pro-choice advocates. Because this language seeks to polarize, rather than to foster understanding, it widens the divide and provides little room or incentive for dialogue.
The main disagreement is not over the right to choose, but rather, between two competing and legitimate values; namely, respect for the unborn potential life, and respect for the woman's right to the free development of her personality. Each side attaches a different weight to these values, but neither is inherently wrong, and intelligent people can rationally disagree about which interest is more important.
But before we even begin to have a rational discussion of the competing values, it is essential to stop vilifying and alienating those who don't already agree with our chosen side.
An article like this, which uses terms such as "anti-choice armies" and "staunch foe of a woman's right to choose" incorrectly characterizes the views of those opposed to abortion, in much the same way that the labels "pro-abortion" or "anti-life" would incorrectly characterize pro-choice advocates. Because this language seeks to polarize, rather than to foster understanding, it widens the divide and provides little room or incentive for dialogue.
The main disagreement is not over the right to choose, but rather, between two competing and legitimate values; namely, respect for the unborn potential life, and respect for the woman's right to the free development of her personality. Each side attaches a different weight to these values, but neither is inherently wrong, and intelligent people can rationally disagree about which interest is more important.
But before we even begin to have a rational discussion of the competing values, it is essential to stop vilifying and alienating those who don't already agree with our chosen side.
5
And yet the pro-life/antiabortion legislators keep getting elected and form the majority of lawmakers and most of the governors of the 50 states. We can no longer count on the Supreme Court to protect a woman's right to choose. If you want to preserve that right you need to elect Pro-Choice candidates. Even Obama, a pro-choice president, says abortions should be 'rare'. That gives moral ground to those who are against abortion. If it should be rare, what is more rare than completely banned? The woman's movement has failed. They are loosing one state at a time. It is about time they started fighting in the court of public opinion and in the legislatures.
1
Religious nonsense. If the people writing those laws refuse to believe in science, modern medicine should be withheld when they get antibiotic resistant infections, and when stem cell research develops cures for the diseases that affect them in their later years they should be denied the treatments.
Hopefully people will vote with their feet and get out of that state, which is a fallback to the early Middle Ages.
Show me heaven, on a map, then explain how we get there, and I won't laugh when somebody talks about God. Until then I have to be blunt and tell them leave the magic for card tricks. Religion is destroying the world. We know too much to keep pretending and be polite.
Hopefully people will vote with their feet and get out of that state, which is a fallback to the early Middle Ages.
Show me heaven, on a map, then explain how we get there, and I won't laugh when somebody talks about God. Until then I have to be blunt and tell them leave the magic for card tricks. Religion is destroying the world. We know too much to keep pretending and be polite.
2
If you live in Kansas or any of the other states, you have two choices: 1. Organize and vote. 2. Move.
I would suggest option (2). We're happy to have you here in New York!
I would suggest option (2). We're happy to have you here in New York!
3
Women of Kansas, are you voting for these guys?
8
Yes they are. I know some of them. Many of them are well meaning people who are fooled into thinking that these male politicians care about babies.
Democrats could make some real progress if they would reach out to these people and remind them that Democrats are the party that respects life at all stages and that Democratic policies do a better job at reducing the number of unwanted pregnancies.
Telling pro life voters that they are stupid or wrong just makes them dig in harder.
Democrats could make some real progress if they would reach out to these people and remind them that Democrats are the party that respects life at all stages and that Democratic policies do a better job at reducing the number of unwanted pregnancies.
Telling pro life voters that they are stupid or wrong just makes them dig in harder.
The same folks (mostly MEN) who vote for these extremely strong limits on abortions are the same ones limiting funds for education,reducing welfare aid,etc.It appears these MEN have great concern for babies "not hatched" but once living and breathing-not so much!!!
2
What could be more presumptuous (or absurd) than to believe that one can "define life" through legislation? Does it change when the law does?
While i am fully supportive of a woman's right to choose what happens to her body, and I am certainly no fan of politicians dictating what medical procedures are to be legal or illegal, I think it is important for those of us who are pro-choice to recognize that support for or opposition to a woman's right to choose is not necessarily the binary choice many of the most ardent promoters of either side would have us believe. There are relative degrees of opposition/support that fall in a rather wide middle ground that lies between absolute opposition to abortion and absolute support for choice.
Among those of us who are pro-choice, I think it is fair to say that most of us believe there are certain lines, certain outer limits, that must be drawn. For a certain subset of this group, that line may well extend into limits on the types of procedures that should be permitted. The fact that abortion opponents are attempting to make it effectively impossible for any woman to have an abortion -- a fact I abhor -- does not make the question of whether some procedures are beyond the moral pale an illegitimate one. And while I have no doubt abortion opponents have deliberately used the most gruesome language possible to dishonestly describe certain procedures, at the same time, it is no more honest for those of us on the pro-choice side to soft-pedal the realities of what those procedures entail.
Among those of us who are pro-choice, I think it is fair to say that most of us believe there are certain lines, certain outer limits, that must be drawn. For a certain subset of this group, that line may well extend into limits on the types of procedures that should be permitted. The fact that abortion opponents are attempting to make it effectively impossible for any woman to have an abortion -- a fact I abhor -- does not make the question of whether some procedures are beyond the moral pale an illegitimate one. And while I have no doubt abortion opponents have deliberately used the most gruesome language possible to dishonestly describe certain procedures, at the same time, it is no more honest for those of us on the pro-choice side to soft-pedal the realities of what those procedures entail.
7
I had an illegal abortion in 1965, at about 4 weeks along. I passed out in the bathroom and awoke in a pool of blood an unknown number of minutes (hours?) later.
I did not dare seek medical attention then or for subsequent symptoms for fear of arrest.
I have never dared mention the abortion to a new PCP out of fear that he/she might be anti-abortion and would find some way to harm me in revenge. I did go on to marry and have two children, born 7 and 10 years later. Many other women in my shoes wound up permanently damaged, infertile... or dead.
This is the world the anti-choice people hope to return us all to. There is no way to stamp out abortion. Only SAFE abortion can be ended.
I did not dare seek medical attention then or for subsequent symptoms for fear of arrest.
I have never dared mention the abortion to a new PCP out of fear that he/she might be anti-abortion and would find some way to harm me in revenge. I did go on to marry and have two children, born 7 and 10 years later. Many other women in my shoes wound up permanently damaged, infertile... or dead.
This is the world the anti-choice people hope to return us all to. There is no way to stamp out abortion. Only SAFE abortion can be ended.
9
Oh by all means – lets make certain all things uterus are ruled over by those who know best – elected male legislators.
It makes perfect sense – they are male, thus are clearly all-knowing. They are elected – thus clearly they only have your best interests at heart – well, that and re-election. And as legislators they are automatically lifetime members of the morality police. Um - what part of this is not true?
It makes perfect sense – they are male, thus are clearly all-knowing. They are elected – thus clearly they only have your best interests at heart – well, that and re-election. And as legislators they are automatically lifetime members of the morality police. Um - what part of this is not true?
8
Oh please, stop with the feminist rhetoric. The fact is that men have absolutely no reproductive rights. Women can decide 100% on their own, and men are economically held liable for that decision.
But more importantly, you completely fail to grasp the point of the debate at hand. If you believe that a late term fetus is a human (which is not at all an extremist view), then it is actually a very humanist position to believe that a woman's right to 'terminate' it should be somewhat restricted. The question is where to draw the line. Even the most liberal Western European societies do not allow a completely unrestricted right to terminate a pregnancy at any time.
But more importantly, you completely fail to grasp the point of the debate at hand. If you believe that a late term fetus is a human (which is not at all an extremist view), then it is actually a very humanist position to believe that a woman's right to 'terminate' it should be somewhat restricted. The question is where to draw the line. Even the most liberal Western European societies do not allow a completely unrestricted right to terminate a pregnancy at any time.
At Roe v. Wade's 40th anniversary 63% of Americans polled said they supported the ruling. Hopefully, in the next election, this majority will turn out to defeat candidates who seek to undermine reproductive rights.
7
To me, this seems even messier.
1
A rogue state with s rogue governor happy to violate the Constitution of the United States. Let the full force of the federal government come down heavily upon them . :
10
This is just one of the countless ways that Brownback and his cronys are figuratively raping the once moderate state of Kansas. His first act was to dismantle our wonderful Kansas Arts Commission. Our previously healthy economy is trashed, our excellent school system has been robbed of funding, the Supreme Court is being politicized and voting has been compromised. He's just getting started and there's no stopping him. This man claims to be serving God but is in actuality in thrall to the wealthy and privileged oil industry. His narrowly won 2nd term was funded by (you guessed it) the Koch Bros.
17
I am so sick of these religious fanatic attacks by attempting to impose their beliefs on the rest of us. Whatever happened to freedom?
If you don't believe in abortions, don't have one, but do not tell the rest of us what to do.
If you don't believe in abortions, don't have one, but do not tell the rest of us what to do.
21
Instead of attacking people for having religious beliefs and for believing that a fetus is a human being who deserves at least some rights, why don't you stick to arguing why a fetus is not a human and why you think that abortions in the US should be 100% unrestricted despite the fact that even the most liberal of civilized societies in Europe and elswhere impose some restrictions (e.g., on late stage abortions). Stop insulting people who legitimately believe that it is wrong and hold a different view from your own, and start arguing on the merits.
More women are pro life than pro choice in just about every poll. It's not a matter of someone pushing religious views on others if abortion is murder. The vast majority of scientists say life begins at conception. How can abortion not be murder? If a fetus is only a "potential" baby, isn't a baby only a "potential" child and a child a "potential" adult? Where is the line? Very liberal on most issues but this .. I don't know.
14
Not quite logical. First off, the two sides are "pro-choice" vs "anti-choice". Plenty of "pro-life" people conveniently disappear from the scene once the fetus becomes a baby. Where is the line? As Roe vs Wade stated: after the first trimester.
If you still don't know, and feel bad about "murder", make a financial contribution to Planned Parenthood. They will use those funds to prevent many of pregnancies from happening in the first place so you can sleep better at night.
If you still don't know, and feel bad about "murder", make a financial contribution to Planned Parenthood. They will use those funds to prevent many of pregnancies from happening in the first place so you can sleep better at night.
3
What 'vast majority of scientists say life begins at conception'? Prove it. And why does a woman's life not have the value of that of a fetus? The woman's actual life as well as her potential value? Of course we know why--because men say women have no real value beyond reproduction. But we are beyond accepting that now and will fight back whatever it takes. Be warned.
3
I'm pro-life. I mean I'm in favor of women controlling their own lives, not letting others control it.
3
Could the Governor Please tell me whether his anti abortion stance would remain the same if a child was raped by a family member? If the choice was between the mother or baby during delivery would he settle for the child to live when other children in the family would be motherless?
7
These people are snakes sneaking into a woman's uterus. It is not their business. I just don't understand the mentality of Kansas and Brownback who had driven Kansas into the red. Oh I forgot they re voted for him. Let all the other red states join in the chorus. Remember, these are the "takers" out there.
6
The moral disconnect here is so strong I can smell it.
This is the party that demonizes the poor while making sure that more poor children will be born into poverty.
There is nothing "christian" about these folks, in fact they are barely humans.
This is the party that demonizes the poor while making sure that more poor children will be born into poverty.
There is nothing "christian" about these folks, in fact they are barely humans.
22
Most abortions are performed on middle class women who are over 21 years of age. About half of all abortions are done on a woman who has already had 1-2 abortions (apparently not having learned the basics of human reproduction nor having any distaste at the abortion process vs contraception).
The idea that it is all desperately poor women, or poor teenagers, is simply untrue.
The idea that it is all desperately poor women, or poor teenagers, is simply untrue.
Your response, Sir, is sickening in itself. Denigrating / characterizing people who legimately hold beliefs different from yours (i.e. believe that a woman's rights to her body need to be balanced with the right of a fetus rather than the completely extremist view that a woman's right to abort her baby should be 100% unrestricted at all times, which almost no civilized country in the world upholds). I am flabbergasted that your argument in this case is to call them 'sub-human'. That's pathetic.
While legislatures are busy passing laws protecting people's religious freedoms, what is needed is protection from legislators' moral and religious "beliefs." The separation of church and state is under assault; women are under assault, and the integrity of our democracy is under assault. The only safeguards that keep our democracy from being a theocracy or a dictatorship by the majority are separation of church and state and our bill of rights.
11
Who says the Taliban are not well and alive in the USA?
17
Who needs foreign terrorists? There are plenty of American ones, and they have the ability to hide behind our own Republican-made laws.
Once again, religious stupidity rears its ugly head.
12
I am very old, and I do not recall it ever NOT rearing its ugly (and ignorant) head......
FYI - Even the most liberal of western european democracies impose some restrictions on a woman's right to abort her baby later in the pregnancy. In Germany, for example, abortions are only allowed in the first trimester unless there is medical necessity in subsequent terms. Are the Germans, and the French, also the Taliban?
Seriously, the most extremist voices in this debate are coming from folks like you, who demonize people who disagree with you. It is you who is 100% unwillling to compromise. You need to educate yourself, Sir.
Seriously, the most extremist voices in this debate are coming from folks like you, who demonize people who disagree with you. It is you who is 100% unwillling to compromise. You need to educate yourself, Sir.
I am dumbfounded that these state legislators, who are obsessed with restricting abortion, will also vote against the things that may help reduce the need for an abortion in the first place, like comprehensive and medically accurate sex education and making contraceptives easily available and affordable to all women. It makes no sense.
19
The same group of legislators that passed this law would probably be the same group of legislators fearing Sharia law coming to their state. I guess they don't recognize Sharia Law - American Style
10
About time, hopefully other states will follow until all abortions are illegal. Nothing, just nothing justifies taking of a human life. Its that simple.
3
Abortions will still happen, they happened before it was legal.
If you feel that strongly about abortion you should be supporting sex education, affordable health care and access to contraception.
If you feel that strongly about abortion you should be supporting sex education, affordable health care and access to contraception.
1
Lives will then be taken by botched back-alley abortions. Would that make you feel good? There is nothing simple about it. Each case is different. Abortions are not going to go away. Keep abortion legal, safe, and rare, and support sex-ed in schools.
1
These people will never, ever, give up appointing themselves custodians of my body. Meanwhile, women will start dying of illegal abortions again. I want to know how many of these "right to lifers" has actually adopted a child?
11
Kansas has become so pro life that as of July 1, it will be legal for anyone 21 and over to carry a concealed pistol without any kind of permit or restrictions. Now Kansas can combine the right to chose with the right to shoot! It can't get anymore pro life that that!
11
If abortions could be performed with guns, the NRA would make certain there were no restrictions.
This is so incredibly frustrating and offensive to me. If republicans really wanted to diminish abortions, why not fund services to support parents and families? Like WIC which helps feed mothers and young children, or day care so parents can get childcare for their children when they work. Or universal health insurance so women can have safe and effective birth control and can afford to give birth and get medical care for their families. But rather than do the above which is logical and truly would indicate a culture of life, they choose to focus on controlling and punishing women.
179
I am so sorry. You are confused. These men do not want to reduce the number of abortions by the rational methods of education and birth control. They have no desire to protect the life of the born, let alone feed it. They are more than happy to kill people. They still have the death penalty. What they want is to control women by any means possible. Autonomous women are a threat to their dubious manhood.
Besides, bullying women is more fun and less work than actually making laws to benefit the people of their state. They don't even have to write these things. ALEC does it for them. Watch the copycat legislation in neighboring states that will spring up soon. The real question is, Why do the Kochs care about abortion? Aren't libertarians supposed to want "government out of our lives"? Oh, no, they just want it out of their wallets.
Besides, bullying women is more fun and less work than actually making laws to benefit the people of their state. They don't even have to write these things. ALEC does it for them. Watch the copycat legislation in neighboring states that will spring up soon. The real question is, Why do the Kochs care about abortion? Aren't libertarians supposed to want "government out of our lives"? Oh, no, they just want it out of their wallets.
It is called "having out cake, and eating it, too." Whilst feeling morally superior because GAWD set things up this way.
Believe me, no one wants the woman who would be willing to kill her developing child to actually raise it. Just give it up. That child will have a much better life than you can imagine. And you are out of the picture. so simple.
Some women and men are simply not equipped to be parents nor should they be. Every day there are stories in the news about people (often poor, drug-addicted, and mentally ill) who abuse and neglect children beyond belief. One successful program I heard about paid drug addicts to get their tubes tied or undergo vasectomies. Many people -- addicted, mentally ill, or already overwhelmed and burdened with children they can not care for or support know they don't want to bring another life into the world. Whether free or paid for, tubal ligations and vasectomies should become widely available and promoted as safe and respectful choices. Especially in states, where legislatures are forcing people to have children they can't adequately care for and then gutting the social safety net.
6
A Gallop Poll shows the that party affiliation is more important than gender in determining whether one is pro life or pro choice
see http://www.gallup.com/poll/170249/split-abortion-pro-choice-pro-life.aspx
First number is percent pro-choice; second is percent pro life
Article did not say but I assume the reason numbers do not add to 100% is that some had no opinion.
Men 44 51
Women 50 41
Republican 27 69
Democrat 67 28
Independent 46 45
see http://www.gallup.com/poll/170249/split-abortion-pro-choice-pro-life.aspx
First number is percent pro-choice; second is percent pro life
Article did not say but I assume the reason numbers do not add to 100% is that some had no opinion.
Men 44 51
Women 50 41
Republican 27 69
Democrat 67 28
Independent 46 45
6
If that Gallup poll had asked the question "what if your daughter were pregnant?", those splits would have been different.
If you don't want abortion then let's make birth control and the morning after pill free and widely available. Along with responsible sex education.
19
These are the same people who trumpet "get the government of our backs". The apparent concern for human life does not extend to the death penalty, gun control, or the eagerness for military action as the only answer to international issues. The GOP taliban is taking us back to the 1950s.
20
Agreed -- except the 1850s is more like it.
If abortion is truly to be considered "murder" then why is it that conservatives are willing to allow abortions in the first trimester? Seriously, what difference should it make to them whether a pregnancy is terminated after 20 weeks or prior to 20 days? In any case, is anyone challenging these draconian laws in court? Or are we simply afraid that taking this matter all the way to the Five Horsemen of the Apocalypse will simply end up with they're overturning Roe V Wade? If so better to have it out once and for all then to see women's reproductive rights whittled away bit by bit.
11
The law already makes distinctions about killings of the unborn under various circumstances.
39 states plus the federal government say killing an unborn is criminal homicide. Some at a later stage of pregnancy; most at any stage. Federal law makes it a crime at any stage. And without having to prove specific intent except for a higher degree of the crime.
These laws were fought bitterly by the pro-abortion lobby not to mention the perpetrators now in jail for the crime. All have been upheld. Probably because even liberal courts including CA have sympathy for the mother
Now it is hornbook law that you cannot commit criminal homicide except on a living person. The classic law school example: the defendant shot what he thought was a living person but but cannot be charged because the "victim" was already dead.
But all such laws exempt abortion at the instance of the mother. Why? Not because of science or logic but because of SCOTUS's Roe decision. Which even some ardent prochoice legal scholars recognize as abominable from at the viewpoint of accepted standards of jurisprudence. As was SCOTUS's Griswold opinion which invented "privacy" on which Roe is grounded out of-and I quote- Constitutional "emanations and penumbras".
Pro lifers are not at all "conservatives" as some Pavlovians would have it. And we will accept marginal victories. And as the case of the federal anti partial birth abortion law ones that highlight the extremism and illogic of the "prochoice" crowd.
39 states plus the federal government say killing an unborn is criminal homicide. Some at a later stage of pregnancy; most at any stage. Federal law makes it a crime at any stage. And without having to prove specific intent except for a higher degree of the crime.
These laws were fought bitterly by the pro-abortion lobby not to mention the perpetrators now in jail for the crime. All have been upheld. Probably because even liberal courts including CA have sympathy for the mother
Now it is hornbook law that you cannot commit criminal homicide except on a living person. The classic law school example: the defendant shot what he thought was a living person but but cannot be charged because the "victim" was already dead.
But all such laws exempt abortion at the instance of the mother. Why? Not because of science or logic but because of SCOTUS's Roe decision. Which even some ardent prochoice legal scholars recognize as abominable from at the viewpoint of accepted standards of jurisprudence. As was SCOTUS's Griswold opinion which invented "privacy" on which Roe is grounded out of-and I quote- Constitutional "emanations and penumbras".
Pro lifers are not at all "conservatives" as some Pavlovians would have it. And we will accept marginal victories. And as the case of the federal anti partial birth abortion law ones that highlight the extremism and illogic of the "prochoice" crowd.
Given time, they'll take that away too. Look at what's happening in Indiana with a woman, Purvi Patel, who miscarried and is now in prison for 20 years.
Stu, you are so misinformed. Conservatives have never wanted to have any, and I mean any abortions. The Supreme s are the ones permitting such. So, the fight to over turn Roe goes on
If conservatives are truly concerned with curtailing the tragedy of abortion, then I encourage them to join with liberals in supporting a policy of contraception on demand - and the establishment of new cultural mores that would strongly encourage every sexually active individual to go to great lengths to avoid conception unless specifically intended.
We know that conservatives strongly resent supporting children born out of wedlock, and that the foolishness of our current cultural debate is only leading to more women becoming pregnant under less than optimal circumstances, and thus to both more children being born without a stable family environment and exponentially more abortions than are necessary.
When abstinence doesn't even work with the clergy of Catholic Church, the time has come to confront reality - and in doing so make progress in an area where both liberals and conservatives authentically share common ground.
Let's dispense with the moronic wedge issues and do some good for the nation we love.
We know that conservatives strongly resent supporting children born out of wedlock, and that the foolishness of our current cultural debate is only leading to more women becoming pregnant under less than optimal circumstances, and thus to both more children being born without a stable family environment and exponentially more abortions than are necessary.
When abstinence doesn't even work with the clergy of Catholic Church, the time has come to confront reality - and in doing so make progress in an area where both liberals and conservatives authentically share common ground.
Let's dispense with the moronic wedge issues and do some good for the nation we love.
59
As a conservative, I agree with much that you say. Birth control should be available to all and n this day and age, it should be easy (and it is, in fact, easier than ever) to take steps to avoid unwanted pregnancies, and we on the right need to open our eyes to the fact that unwanted children - whether carried to term or not create great damage and division in our society. Abstinence, even though it has a perfect track record in avoiding unwanted pregnancies, is not a practical solution for most. Also, there should be a point during a pregnancy when abortion is legal and safe. Having said all of that, there also should be a point in a pregnancy where - short of an extenuating circumstance such as a significant fetal abnormality or the health of the mother - where abortion should not be allowed. For me, that is somewhere in the 20-22 week zone, but if it's 24 weeks, so be it.
Lawmakers routinely curtail our freedoms to do whatever we want for greater good of society. Ideally, there would be no unwanted pregnancies, but to the extent they exists, there should be measures in place to protect both the rights of the woman to choose during the first 60% or so of the term, but also measures to protect the rights of the baby as he or she becomes increasingly viable. Both sides need to give a bit, and individuals involved (potential fathers as well as the mothers) need to be responsible for their actions and aware of the consequences. Ignorance of the law is not an excuse.
Lawmakers routinely curtail our freedoms to do whatever we want for greater good of society. Ideally, there would be no unwanted pregnancies, but to the extent they exists, there should be measures in place to protect both the rights of the woman to choose during the first 60% or so of the term, but also measures to protect the rights of the baby as he or she becomes increasingly viable. Both sides need to give a bit, and individuals involved (potential fathers as well as the mothers) need to be responsible for their actions and aware of the consequences. Ignorance of the law is not an excuse.
It was puzzling to me listening to my strictly "pro-life" sister ranting at length about how mad she was that her taxes were going to be used to support her daughter's 16 year old friend's pregnancy and resulting child. If I hadn't heard her on so-many other occasions give her "all abortion is murder" spiel, I would've sworn she wanted her daughter's friend to have an abortion.
Mike C. - how did you get to the "20-22 week zone"? I'm just curious. Do you have medical qualifications?
1
Is there something in the water or the air in Kansas, Arkansas, and Indiana? there seems to be a war against everything going on in these states. They are afraid of being converted to being homosexuals of one sort or another. They don't want their children to learn about reproduction. Women are not allowed to control their reproductive lives unless it's by having children no matter what their preferences are.
The GOP, which claims to be pro life, is anything but. They pass budgets cutting monies to programs that help children learn about sex, that help women have access to prenatal care, to abortions if they need them, to food stamps, to WIC, to anything that might do some good for someone less fortunate than they. Life happens, and no one plans to get raped, girls don't wait around for a family member to molest or rape them so they can get pregnant, women who decide not have children or have an abortion have good reasons: they can't support one, the fetus has a genetic defect incompatible with life, their lives are in danger.
Yet the GOP and others similar in outlook to them seem to feel that women are stupid creatures who cannot be allowed to make a responsible decision. How responsible is it to deny a woman who doesn't want a child an abortion? How responsible is it to deny parents money, food, and shelter after forcing them to have children they cannot support? It's not responsible, sensible, or, to use their religion, Christian. It's cruel.
The GOP, which claims to be pro life, is anything but. They pass budgets cutting monies to programs that help children learn about sex, that help women have access to prenatal care, to abortions if they need them, to food stamps, to WIC, to anything that might do some good for someone less fortunate than they. Life happens, and no one plans to get raped, girls don't wait around for a family member to molest or rape them so they can get pregnant, women who decide not have children or have an abortion have good reasons: they can't support one, the fetus has a genetic defect incompatible with life, their lives are in danger.
Yet the GOP and others similar in outlook to them seem to feel that women are stupid creatures who cannot be allowed to make a responsible decision. How responsible is it to deny a woman who doesn't want a child an abortion? How responsible is it to deny parents money, food, and shelter after forcing them to have children they cannot support? It's not responsible, sensible, or, to use their religion, Christian. It's cruel.
101
Kansas is home of the Koch Brothers. Brownback is their puppet, as is Gov. Scott Walker and Gov. Rick Snyder and the rest of the Midwest, except for Minnesota (so far). All it takes to brainwash humans is a little money, and they'll stop thinking for themselves altogether.
2
I don't understand why Republicans want children to be born only to die of neglect from starvation due to food stamp cuts.
95
As an example of what will happen to you if you pick the wrong parents.
27
It has nothing to do with children and everything to do with convincing gullible people that they care about babies. I know because when I was young I fell for it.
Then of course there's the bonus of being able to control women, something a lot of conservative voters are happy with.
Then of course there's the bonus of being able to control women, something a lot of conservative voters are happy with.
1
They have no interest in the children - only in punishing women who dare to have sex. If you have sex, ladies, better be ready to suffer Eve's punishment!
1
Those who insist that women carry their pregnancies to term, working toward making abortions very difficult to get, are often the same people who accuse single mothers of 'immoral behavior', that people need 'to pull themselves up by their bootstraps' and that food stamps or medicaid are used by people who are shiftless and simply don't want to work.
Meanwhile, all of these forced and enforced pregnancies result in babies that cry, some with special needs, who truly need and require medical and humane help. Do any of these people in the rabid 'no abortions' crowd understand the irony?
Meanwhile, all of these forced and enforced pregnancies result in babies that cry, some with special needs, who truly need and require medical and humane help. Do any of these people in the rabid 'no abortions' crowd understand the irony?
89
Some of us can't afford bootstraps.
1
When the ultra religious are in control, whether in Iran, Saudi Arabia or various states in the US, the rights of people to make their own decisions about their lives get crushed. Of course, women and the poor are particularly vulnerable but not to the exclusion of others. The 2016 elections are our next opportunity to change the direction this country has taken for the last quarter century, where we have seen the ultra religious prevail in many states. We'll see if those of us on the other side have the will and the numbers to push back the darkness.
166
And every last one of them takes God's name in vain, thereby making mockery of their own purported religion.
2
So is it fair to assume that you would support my right to choose to enroll in health care insurance, or is that not a protected choice since it isn't right wing evangelicals who are forcing the issue but rather left wing statists?
I became a US citizen recently just because I was so aggravated by the stupid bickering of our politicians I felt compelled to join with sanity, denounce these fakes and charlatans by going to the polls and bring with me a large number of young fans. In most of the civilized world this issue is nonexistent.
3
Kansans are getting exactly what they voted for and deserve.
59
I am from Texas, a large swath of which is blue--though you would not know it from national and state-wide election results.
Among the most effective ways to oust these anti-life, pro-birth Republicans is to have courts step in to stop gerrymandering, and convince 5 of the 9 Supreme Court justices that voter ID laws, and other restrictions on voting are crippling our democracy.
Among the most effective ways to oust these anti-life, pro-birth Republicans is to have courts step in to stop gerrymandering, and convince 5 of the 9 Supreme Court justices that voter ID laws, and other restrictions on voting are crippling our democracy.
Any woman who decides not to get an abortion and gives birth to a child should then be able to hand the child over to the governor. Let HIM and his right wing extremist hypocrite buddies take care of it.
119
Then you get stories like this:" A Republican lawmaker who owns a religious pre-school adopted a little girl with his wife. He apparently later "re-homed," or unofficially but permanently gave over the 6-year old to a man he would end up hiring as a pre-school teacher. That man later raped her."
Any woman finding that she is forced to give birth to a baby she does not want should either abandon it right in the hospital or immediately deliver it to the steps of the state capitol building or some church doorstep. If enough new born babies accumulate, sooner or later the state will reconsider.
Don't lay all of the blame for this on men. The people of Kansas, both men and women, elected these legislators knowing full well what their agenda was. Further, they re-elected Governor Brownback, who took the state far to the right in spite of opposition from his own party, on promises that, if returned to office, he would double down on his programs. It's obvious this is the sort of governance that the majority of voters in Kansas of both sexes want.
52
They are children of the corn praying for relief from the tornadoes.
I believe someone has started to look into the way the voting machine algorithms may have been 'adjusted'.
Sure the people of Arkansas decided what they wanted, except what they want is not constitutional. One, separation of church and state. Second a governor cannot pick a Religion and legislate it. It won't pass the scrutiny of the Supreme Court. Thanks Gov. for causing havoc and diverting energy and resources to senseless political maneuverings, while people are struggling to make ends meet.
Kansas has not been a hot bed of successful social programs lately. As some Kansans are in deep shock that Brownback's giving the store away to the wealthy is only turning out badly, they might try to wrap their minds around the fact that this cockamamie law will too.
No, no, no. Women will not cease to have abortions. This is from the WHO:
"Every year, about 19–20 million abortions are done by individuals
without the requisite skills, or in environments below minimum medical standards, or both. Nearly all unsafe abortions (97%) are in developing countries. An estimated 68,000 women die as a result, and millions more have complications, many permanent."
http://www.who.int/reproductivehealth/topics/unsafe_abortion/article_uns...
No, no, no. Women will not cease to have abortions. This is from the WHO:
"Every year, about 19–20 million abortions are done by individuals
without the requisite skills, or in environments below minimum medical standards, or both. Nearly all unsafe abortions (97%) are in developing countries. An estimated 68,000 women die as a result, and millions more have complications, many permanent."
http://www.who.int/reproductivehealth/topics/unsafe_abortion/article_uns...
58
Sam Brownback doesn't care. He pines for a world in which wealthy white men dictate to the rest of the population how they will live their lives.
2
These men do not care about the suffering and deaths likely to result from their needless, punitive laws. Death and disease from back-alley abortions will be "just punishment" for women who commit the sin of having sex, and "God's will" or a "blessing in disguise" for victims of rape or incest. For those with extreme fetal abnormalities, "God don't make mistakes". Their cruelty is astounding.
2
We need nine women USSC justices
87
Polls show little difference between the views of men and women on abortion. You'd probably get a 5-4 vote either way.
And when did we start ignoring the fact that many people consider abortion to be murder?
9
we are not ignoring this. we just don't view it as murder.
59
@Larry: And when did we start imposing that view upon every woman who doesn't share it?
39
Many people do not consider abortion to be murder.Many people consider the matter of unplanned pregnancy to be a matter best left to the individuals mostly intimately concerned, such as the woman, her partner, and her phyisician.
7
I wonder if a legal requirement to render the fetus insensate (via in utero injection) prior to its dismemberment might narrow the chasm between the "pro-life" and "pro-choice" constituencies. Given that neurological development is rather far along by the second trimester, it makes no sense to assume that dismemberment isn't a harrowing experience for a sentient fetus, nor to pretend that the issue doesn't exist, as many in the "pro-choice" camp insist on doing). I have never understood why this issue is virtually never addressed in the ongoing abortion wars.
16
Are you a physician?
Always astounding to me that legislators who feel women are not capable of making judgments about terminating a pregnancy are somehow capable of caring for a child...
Babies should not be used as punishment for women having sex; no woman is free until she has control over her reproductive life.
Babies should not be used as punishment for women having sex; no woman is free until she has control over her reproductive life.
178
They believe pregnancy is God's decreed punishment for women who experience pleasure from sex.
While registering my sympathy for the women who have lost their rights against their will, I must note that presumably these Republicans could not have come to power without some women voting for them, so at least those women did not consider restrictions on abortion to be of sufficient significance to change their vote. Given typical election turn-outs, there are probably even more women who did not consider this issue important enough to even to get them out to vote.
35
This issue concerns everyone interested in a decent and free society and everyone interested in controlling when they become a parent. It does not concern women exclusively.
1
This is what happens when you are a moderate or liberal and do not vote in local or state elections. Everyone knows where the religious right stands and how much further right it gets in the "bible belt". They believe in the Bible and it's word is law. Now if you don't believe that and you don't want your rights taken away maybe you should get out and vote. Better do it soon before parts of this country become a Theocracy. Only it will not be "Sharia Law" it will be Bible Law. It will not be Iran but states like Kansas.
Not sure what the point is. Should we be denied rights to our own bodies because not everyone voted and not all are one-issue voters? If some women vote for these idiots, must we all suffer? Maybe the other candidates were equally odious. Some women are against women's rights. Hard to believe, but true. Or they don't see themselves needing them, so they don't consider others who do.
Apart from these lawmakers imposing their religious beliefs on other people who don't share those beliefs, I wish that lawmakers who want to cut off access to safe abortions would know their history of before Roe vs. Wade, or look at a county like El Salvador where all abortions are illegal. You can outlaw abortion but women will still have abortions regardless.
The only difference is that rich women just travel to whatever place that offers safe and legal abortions. Poor women have dangerous back-alley abortions if they were desperate enough, or they just stab themselves, and have a good chance to kill not only their unborn baby, but also themselves.
That is where we will go back to. And as usual it will be the poor women who will suffer the consequences. But that is nothing new here in the US.
The only difference is that rich women just travel to whatever place that offers safe and legal abortions. Poor women have dangerous back-alley abortions if they were desperate enough, or they just stab themselves, and have a good chance to kill not only their unborn baby, but also themselves.
That is where we will go back to. And as usual it will be the poor women who will suffer the consequences. But that is nothing new here in the US.
543
Quit using this misleading, deceptive language. It's not an "unborn baby", it's a fetus. To be a baby requires the act of birth.
1
Opposing abortion is not a religious belief.
1
Robert, thank you for your excellent post. You took my very words out of my mouth.
The so-called right-to-life movement really doesn't get it: as in El Salvador, abortions will still take place, devastating and life-threatening for the poor, and among the well-to-do, who will simply fly to the US for the procedure.
Perhaps what this is really about is sex, and punishing women, and political power, where hot-button issues like this get the sheeple out to vote.
The so-called right-to-life movement really doesn't get it: as in El Salvador, abortions will still take place, devastating and life-threatening for the poor, and among the well-to-do, who will simply fly to the US for the procedure.
Perhaps what this is really about is sex, and punishing women, and political power, where hot-button issues like this get the sheeple out to vote.
with any luck the Republican party will win the presidency as well as keep both houses of Congress after the next election. Then, finally, the evil that is abortion will be eliminated. May the Republicans win a landslide and bring this over 40 year curse to an end in our country!
3
I, too, would like abortion to end, but the way I want to end the practice is to make sure that every man and women has access to birth control so that there are no unwanted pregnancies. Is that a method we both support?
88
@Yoda: And with any luck the next President of the United States will be a woman and the evil that is the Republican Party will be eliminated.
29
I've got a really nice bridge to sell you......
There were abortions in the U.S. prior to it being legal. It's stunning that you don't know this.
If you really have a problem with abortion (I personally find it abhorrent) then start supporting affordable health care, sex education and access to contraception.
There were abortions in the U.S. prior to it being legal. It's stunning that you don't know this.
If you really have a problem with abortion (I personally find it abhorrent) then start supporting affordable health care, sex education and access to contraception.
10
Republicans know that this one issue will get votes of people who end up voting against their best interests. Republicans don't have to worry about the rich, their only constituency, because they can always get safe abortions.
63
You're right.
Democrats should start reaching out to conservative voters and talk about all of the things they do to help prevent unwanted pregnancies so that abortions are less likely to occur. I really think they could make some headway there if they put their minds to it.
Democrats should start reaching out to conservative voters and talk about all of the things they do to help prevent unwanted pregnancies so that abortions are less likely to occur. I really think they could make some headway there if they put their minds to it.
1
I know many other people have thought this too, but why are the people who say they care so much for the unborn are the first to side against their best interest after they're born? Women who are not ready to take on that resposibility because she doesn't have the skill or emotional stability will need help raising it if she keeps the baby, which will need to come from her parents or tax dollars.
55
Adoption?
Yep...we love you when you are a fetus...once you are here...you are on your own kid. Saw it repeatedly in my job as a social worker in Florida....abuse and neglect is what these kids get. And they are the target of sexual predators.
1
To you and others who state so righteously that those of us who oppose abortion, especially late term abs: WE CARE! There is so much help out there for women who struggle to care for their children. There are people in this country who are desperate to adopt unwanted babies. This is another old and outdated argument.
Do people really believe there were no abortions prior to Roe v. Wade? Abortions happened all the time they just weren't happening in the safest environments by qualified doctors. These laws will not make abortions hard to get, they will make them unsafe to get but women will get them anyway because they have to.
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and a lot of women died many of whom were mothers so they left orphans behind
35
Interesting how Republicans want to FORCE other people's children (teenagers)
to have unwanted babies.
Republicans seem to think that bringing unloved, unwanted children into a world of poverty - is a favor to the child.
to have unwanted babies.
Republicans seem to think that bringing unloved, unwanted children into a world of poverty - is a favor to the child.
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As someone who was an unwanted child I can state that it's not a favor. It's a horrible thing to have your worst fear confirmed when your mother tells you that if it weren't for the abortion laws you wouldn't be here. I have never forgotten that and I know it was true because of how both parents treated me when I was a child: like I was a nuisance, a problem, and not welcome in their lives. It has affected my life in ways that I don't wish to detail except to say that I have never felt wanted, loved, cherished, worthwhile, or any of those positive things that people say they feel in life. The one thing that therapy taught me was how to act human, not how to feel human. I do often wish I'd never been born.
1
no need to worry .... all the affluent will just go tomsome other state or to switzerland for an abortion/skiing vacation
53
My understanding is that polls show that most Americans are generally supportive, if ambivalent or a little uncomfortable, with the idea that the procedure needs to remain legal.
Nevertheless, a small, but highly energized and aggressive lobby has all but won the war in many parts of the country. What is going on? Where is the grassroots energy of the choice movement?
Nevertheless, a small, but highly energized and aggressive lobby has all but won the war in many parts of the country. What is going on? Where is the grassroots energy of the choice movement?
58
Fox News, gerrymandering, and a ton of emotional misinformation. That's what's going on.
As always this applies to poor people. The well off will just travel. I also find it interesting that Kansas wants to make sure you have that child at the same time it's decided to reduce education spending and insure the poor don't have access to comprehensive health care. There goal must be to have a large amount of uneducated and unhealthy children.
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...Who can't vote them out of office because they also changed the voting laws.
The 1% crowd refer to such children as future minimum wage employees.
While I fully support a woman's right to choose what is best for herself, some of the terminology used here really demands more public understanding of the exact process of some of these methods. Should we not feel "squeamish" about the procedures described?
Dilation and extraction, dilation and evacuation, partial-birth - the euphemisms are fine if we all know exactly what we're talking about, but I, for one, do not.
While I'd be more likely to vote for a bill that simply proposes the legality of "abortion", I might be more likely to vote against a bill that proposes "the dismemberment and piece-meal removal of a fetus from the womb in order to prematurely terminate a pregnancy". These bills and the way they are passed should not use exaggeration or intimidation to achieve their purpose, but they should also not gloss over the truth of what they propose. It's a very difficult situation to be in, and I do not envy the position of any woman with an unwanted pregnancy. My personal ideal would be that she abort it as soon as possible, when the least gruesome means are still at her disposal. On the other hand, being a man, I can never fully understand what it would be like to wear her shoes...
Dilation and extraction, dilation and evacuation, partial-birth - the euphemisms are fine if we all know exactly what we're talking about, but I, for one, do not.
While I'd be more likely to vote for a bill that simply proposes the legality of "abortion", I might be more likely to vote against a bill that proposes "the dismemberment and piece-meal removal of a fetus from the womb in order to prematurely terminate a pregnancy". These bills and the way they are passed should not use exaggeration or intimidation to achieve their purpose, but they should also not gloss over the truth of what they propose. It's a very difficult situation to be in, and I do not envy the position of any woman with an unwanted pregnancy. My personal ideal would be that she abort it as soon as possible, when the least gruesome means are still at her disposal. On the other hand, being a man, I can never fully understand what it would be like to wear her shoes...
69
Perhaps you'd like to hear in graphic terms what it's like to carry inside your body a fetus that is the result of a violent rape. Or you could just watch Alien.
Most surgical procedures are unpleasant. That doesn't mean you should be deciding whether someone gets their gall bladder removed or not.
Most surgical procedures are unpleasant. That doesn't mean you should be deciding whether someone gets their gall bladder removed or not.
85
Have you ever heard a detailed description of having an appendix out?
372
Good post.
My daughter in law's mother is a nurse so she grew up knowing a lot about sex and reproduction.
It was important to her that she never face an unwanted pregnancy because she didn't think she could have an abortion. She made sure she used two forms of birth control which made sense to me.
Young people should be taught that they should use two forms of birth control, one of them should be a condom to prevent against STDs.
My daughter in law's mother is a nurse so she grew up knowing a lot about sex and reproduction.
It was important to her that she never face an unwanted pregnancy because she didn't think she could have an abortion. She made sure she used two forms of birth control which made sense to me.
Young people should be taught that they should use two forms of birth control, one of them should be a condom to prevent against STDs.
25
A solution - every time a law is found prima facie unconstitutional, each legislator and the governor must pay for the state's litigation costs personally. It's capitalism. And it's conservative--saving my tax dollars from being wasted.
561
I like it. Alternatively, a boycott by all businesses and groups that drew a line after the recent discrimination laws in Arkansas and Indiana might make Kansas rethink this...
As if the Christian god would care... Abortion is abortion. Leave it at that. Do not torture women with a troubled or unwanted pregnancy by twisting the reality and using graphic description of the procedure. Abortion is a necessary evil, as politics is. Unless you have a sound contingency plan for the future of every fetus in question (say, happy upbringing, good/free daycare system, good education, good healthcare, good job, etc.), let the pregnant women choose what's best for themselves. I wonder how many women participated in that vote. Hmm.
95
Right, we poor, stupid women should make those choices without "graphic" information because we don't need to know what we're signing up for. Worrying makes wrinkles, anyway. Then again, you can always shoot a little Botox in for those. For that procedure, even women, who really don't need to know anything, are generally shown a diagram of the injection site and (gasp) see the needle. We need to grow up a little and understand that informed consent means you need to understand the information before you consent.
How many of us ex-fetuses never had a happy upbringing, good/free daycare, a good education, or currently do not have good healthcare or a good job? Do we all wish we had never been born because our lives turned out to be less than perfect? If only Republicans could guarantee every fetus a utopian life! Then I'm sure no woman would ever choose to have an abortion. Or would she?
1
20 weeks, that's a little less than 5 months. Free associating here - who would want to have an abortion then? -someone who did not find out until late that the fetus was seriously compromised and that it might have severe problems resulting in horrendous expenses, constant vigilance rather than normal baby care, that the fetus, if it came to term, would have a short life as well. I have known two women in that position who delivered babies so very far from normal that it was a great pity to hear them speaking about the present and future realities. I do hold that the state should not be overly involved in decisions involving choice of medical procedures to end pregnancy. Many people do not know that there are special procedures of oversight for abortion, that it is not just a woman whimsically saying she doesn't want to have a baby when the time is immediately after conception or when the pregnancy is farther along. I have chosen my words very carefully as a mother of two, as someone who had physical limitations in my ability to care for children, and as someone who has five grandchildren.
65
What if the baby would be healthy and fine? Would you agree that they could still abort it if they wanted too? I'm not being argumentative, I don't feel a fetus at 5 months should be allowed to be killed. I agree, that if the baby had severe abnormalities it might be better, but I feel that at 5 months it's too late for a normal baby. This baby can live if it is born alive.
You are asking these legislators and anti choicers to consider women as intelligent agents who know what they're doing. You're speaking a language they refuse to hear.
I do agree that 20 weeks is too late to make that personal decision except on the grounds of severe abnormalities. That would be my position as to moral or ethical responsibility. There are complications as we both acknowledge. I knew a women who choose to have the baby when she found out quite some time after an ectopic pregnancy spontaneously aborted that there was a second viable fetus in the uterus. She was l9 and unmarried. I imagine that had she requested an abortion, the doctor and advisory panel in such a case would not have supported abortion. To be absolutely honest, would I have supported a decision for abortion? Thirty years ago, I might have. Now, I probably would say, "Go ahead with the pregnancy." but I definitely do not support the Kansas law. Most people cringe at very late abortion, but I do not think the Kansas law accepts responsibility for the full range of situations.
Gov. Brownback seems to support a smaller less intrusive government as long as it doesn't infringe on his personal or religious beliefs. Apparently my beliefs are in contradiction to that curious amendment regarding the establishment of a national religious doctrine. I'm a secular Jew and choose to believe or not in religious edicts just as long as they don't violate my fellow citizens beliefs or rights.
78
I'm a reform Jew, practicing, and I don't favor abortion after the 20th week.
To religious conservatives, and by extension, the party they (and assorted angry crazies and greed-obsessed plutocrats) control, a 'smaller less intrusive government' means no taxes or regulations except where the private lives and bedrooms of adults and the bodies of women are concerned. Then, intrusiveness, for them, is required.
What these misogynists want is a government that is small enough to fit inside every woman's uterus, where it, and not the woman concerned, will make all decisions.
Until the unwanted child is actually born. Then it becomes a parasite on society, deserving of neither education nor compassion.
The GOP is a party governed by sociopathy, not principles.
What these misogynists want is a government that is small enough to fit inside every woman's uterus, where it, and not the woman concerned, will make all decisions.
Until the unwanted child is actually born. Then it becomes a parasite on society, deserving of neither education nor compassion.
The GOP is a party governed by sociopathy, not principles.
When did legislators receive their licenses as physicians? Only when this condition is met are they qualified to suggest medical diagnosis and treatment.. And then only for their patients. Wilfully ignoring medical science that says a procedure is safe because your faith happens to disagree is not the basis for laws. If your beliefs say that psychiatry is wrong, do you then legislate that no one can see a psychiatrist? Government and religion are meant to be separate. My body is not yours to control.
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"When did legislators receive their licenses as physicians?"
Oh, I don't know - the same place as they got their economics, geology and climatology degrees?
Oh, I don't know - the same place as they got their economics, geology and climatology degrees?
5
Yes, Virginia, even if you're not a wild-eyed political activist on the left or right, it's always necessary to vote. Every election, even mid-terms, even state-wide, even local. No exceptions.
51
If the state of Kansas was truly concerned about the life of the child, they wouldn't require that it be born to a woman who is emotionally or financially unable to care for it.
Of course, no pro-choice person I know would feel good about seeing a healthy 8-month fetus terminated. I certainly wouldn't. But neither would most care if a fertilized egg is flushed away immediately after conception, unless they labor under some burdensome theology.
It's clear that the rights of a fetus exist along a continuum. Even the state recognizes this reality, because when fetuses spontaneously abort a death certificate is not issued.
It's not really about the fetus. It's about burdening the mother as punishment for her wanton and irresponsible sexual behavior. It's the reason Kansas is against same-sex marriage, citing pious religious reasons when it's little more than small-minded bigotry.
"What would BFM do?" would be the question we'd all have to ask before we did anything, because if Bigoted Fundamentalist Men wouldn't do it, neither can you.
Of course, no pro-choice person I know would feel good about seeing a healthy 8-month fetus terminated. I certainly wouldn't. But neither would most care if a fertilized egg is flushed away immediately after conception, unless they labor under some burdensome theology.
It's clear that the rights of a fetus exist along a continuum. Even the state recognizes this reality, because when fetuses spontaneously abort a death certificate is not issued.
It's not really about the fetus. It's about burdening the mother as punishment for her wanton and irresponsible sexual behavior. It's the reason Kansas is against same-sex marriage, citing pious religious reasons when it's little more than small-minded bigotry.
"What would BFM do?" would be the question we'd all have to ask before we did anything, because if Bigoted Fundamentalist Men wouldn't do it, neither can you.
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It never has been about concern for the child, otherwise that concern would manifest itself in actual services for children in need. We must get out of the habit of giving rabid anti-choicers the benefit of the doubt that they just want to save pretty little babies. They don't. They want to control women's sexuality, nothing more, nothing less.
44
Healthy 8 month old fetus?! It's a baby. Why not just let people (men too) decide after the baby is born? Perhaps for the first 6 months.
1
Nice to see that some people here do get it, Jennifer.
2
Still amazed that men make all these laws. So, let me get this right. A woman finds out after amino - typical 15-18 weeks - that there is something dreadfully wrong with the child. Under this law, the woman has to carry the child to term. Wow, can you get any more cruel?
401
And even worse, these people won't help the mother pay for its various medical needs, surgeries, and therapies, which could be for the child's lifetime.
24
Where do you get that? The fetus can be delivered intact vaginally by inducing labor. But, you know, that would be too inconvenient and trying for the mother.
2
Actually, if there are complications, attached placenta, it can be dangerous to induce.
6
This Op-Ed reads like a Twilight Zone episode. What's next... re-litigating the Scope's trial?
83
Don't be surprised if it happens. Our American mullahs like Brownback are intent on turning the United States into a theocracy. Eventually one of these clowns will proclaim the Earth is flat and the sun revolves around it, and will clog up the courts trying to "prove" it.
20
Mr. Thomas, the Scopes verdict was that he was guilty of teaching evolution. The backwards people won; so, yes, it should be re-litigated.
1
Why is no one fighting back?
Why are there no cases going to the judiciary?
Why are doctors allowing medicine to be legislated?
Why are there no cases going to the judiciary?
Why are doctors allowing medicine to be legislated?
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Where are the large organizations and celebrities threatening to pull their conventions and other business out of the state?
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Because abortion activist doctors are shot by fanatics. The irony...
7
Kansas is a corporation of 1 or maybe 2 and those 1 or 2 control all of the organizations in the state. So there is not much reason to go to Kansas just drive through it.
6
Wish for the day:
Headline: Kansas Tries to Stamp Out Abortion
by passing comprehensive sex education requirements for all grade levels that encourages acceptance of healthy human sexuality without an over reliance on abstinence-only models.
Headline: Kansas Tries to Stamp Out Abortion
by passing comprehensive sex education requirements for all grade levels that encourages acceptance of healthy human sexuality without an over reliance on abstinence-only models.
602
Laughing loudly. never in Kansas.
4
While I agree that the best way to reduce the number of abortions is to have compresensive sex ed and promote access to the most reliable contraceptives, banning D&E abortions will have a large effect on women who experience complications with their pregnancy or a problem with the fetus. Many of these pregnancies are planned.
5
I agree entirely Movie fan -there should be comprehensive sex ed and free birth control for all -and no abortions. But that's the point isn't it I want these things to eliminate abortion. You want these things and abortion. You would never be satisfied with the Headline you quote.
This seems like a treadmill going backwards. What do people not understand about this being between a woman and her doctor and that it is not a political or criminal issue?
I have experienced two abortions, the first in Canada, thank you Riverside Church, when there was no legal abortion in the U.S. and one in New York City in 1971 when it was legal in NY state, but before Roe v. Wade. Legal was vastly safer. A hospital with my own doctor vs. alone at a storefront in a shopping center, I never knew where. A woman must have the right to decide. We are going to go back to coat hangers and unnecessary deaths with this new legislation.
I have two adult daughters, born when the time was right. I have no idea where my life would have gone as a single mother 12 years sooner.
I am terribly sad that 43 years after Roe, we are still in reverse.
I have experienced two abortions, the first in Canada, thank you Riverside Church, when there was no legal abortion in the U.S. and one in New York City in 1971 when it was legal in NY state, but before Roe v. Wade. Legal was vastly safer. A hospital with my own doctor vs. alone at a storefront in a shopping center, I never knew where. A woman must have the right to decide. We are going to go back to coat hangers and unnecessary deaths with this new legislation.
I have two adult daughters, born when the time was right. I have no idea where my life would have gone as a single mother 12 years sooner.
I am terribly sad that 43 years after Roe, we are still in reverse.
693
It's not outlawing abortion, just very late abortion. It's not so clear cut to me.
1
Do not try to reason with religious fanatics. Reason is not part of their portfolio.
15
Is it not between a woman and her husband, or father of the child she is holding? It's half his. Or are men only considered when it's payday? If a woman keeps a baby from a one night stand, a man has to pay whether he wants the child or not. That seems fair. When a man wants the child but the woman does not, it's her body and she can do what she wishes, married, dating or in love are secondary considerations. Men are brutes and deadbeats or men have no say so. Seems a double standard and a clear bias against men.
1
You say the facts listed that are typically involved in extracting a fetus in the second semester serve as "shock value." Guess what? It is shocking to read those facts. I am certain that you print them with vast disdain. But we are especially attuned to the importance of basing decisions on facts over narratives or causes or advocates, of any type, these past few weeks. Of course I do not expect you to print my remarks but thank you for reading them.
9
If you find abortions shocking, don't have an abortion. You might want to read up a bit more on the facts before you decide; to start with, there is no such thing as a "second semester" in pregnancy.
But please do explain why you want to lay a "shock horror" guilt trip on women who sadly need a severely defective pregnancy terminated after 20 weeks.
But please do explain why you want to lay a "shock horror" guilt trip on women who sadly need a severely defective pregnancy terminated after 20 weeks.
1
Christian law = Sharia law in my book. Stop letting religion take precedent over secular law. Why can't the federal government stop this kind of action on behalf of women having the right to equal protection? Unfortunately, we've let so many Catholics on the Supreme Court that they are liable to vote for religious law as well.....
242
I'm not a christian, but I agree with this. Unless there is proof that the baby has severe abnormalities I don't think you should get to abort it that late. It can live outside the mother at this time and then would be called a baby. I think after 20 weeks you've had long enough time to get an abortion earlier.
2
Add Jewish law to that
Perhaps Brownback could join his ISIS or Taliban buddies. They seem to have the same regard for women that he does.
6
Kansas has become a more peculiar place, chopping taxes to pursue the unicorn-like myth that jobs and higher tax receipts would follow, voting lists of banned behaviors for the poor, and now this law to greater control of women's fertility. Perhaps it is something in the water, or the unrelenting winds that blow across the landscape.
38
i'd suggeat remembering this whenever any of these guys tries saying "Oh, we just want a reasonable compromise...we don't want to ban abortion or take away contraception."
Yeah, they do. And anything else is just a signpost on the way there.
Yeah, they do. And anything else is just a signpost on the way there.
186
Freedom of (only my) religion. Keeping government out of (my) life (while shoving it into yours).
772
I am with you, Leslie. There is no room in any belief system (and yes, mine is following Jesus) for that "Thy way or the highway" insanity.
5
Leslie I like your your forward style on this issue. These idiots don't get it. They are actually violating the Constitution. There is a very clean separation of church and state. We the citizens of the United States state should sue them for breaking the oath of office.
6
Old and tired reasoning. Flushing away the results of one's irresponsible actions isn't showing any respect for your body but does that you have no room for anyone else's.
1
aside from the issue of abortion, this is the result of many sitting out elections and letting others decide from them. The wave of ultra conservative politicians or religious extremists in various legislatures and in DC testify that those elected do not represent the nation but only those who bother to vote. The US is much more alike the very theocracies we loathe than many are willing to admit
51
Yes, and hinders of millions of dollars of dark money in politics. I met with local Colorado democratic State Reps recently. The Rep from Greeley - a small city in the midst of very red Weld county - told me that Koch affiliated groups put up $600K against him in a single sate house district election. These Billionaires don;t really give a carp ab out the social issues but it keeps their shills paid and their dupes voting.
Billionaires + an apathetic electorate = oligarchy.
Billionaires + an apathetic electorate = oligarchy.
22
I would differ from you slightly: I would write "the result of many WOMEN sitting out elections." They leave women's health decisions to old, male, Republican politicians in some faraway state-house.
Being against abortion is one thing, but cutting state budgets for education, hospitals, policing and not embracing the expansion of Medicaid begs the question of who is going to pay for all those extra children who are going to be born. Maybe they will rely on charities and churches to foot the bill. They also cut the budget for sex education in high school.
62
Our Bodies Ourselves tells us that "Occasionally, women ending wanted pregnancies due to unexpected problems decide to go into labor with an induction procedure in order to hold the fetus and say good-bye. This may also be possible after some D&E procedures (called intact D&Es)." In a D&C where the fetus cannot be removed in one piece, its body is dismembered to facilitate removal. This is just fact. It's not propaganda.
I support our right to a safe and legal abortion, but it serves no one to describe the procedure in either euphemism (as in referring to referring the body of a 22 week fetus as simply "tissue") or in a way that will sicken and horrify a woman whose wanted pregnancy has gone terribly wrong and who must terminate in her second trimester.
I support our right to a safe and legal abortion, but it serves no one to describe the procedure in either euphemism (as in referring to referring the body of a 22 week fetus as simply "tissue") or in a way that will sicken and horrify a woman whose wanted pregnancy has gone terribly wrong and who must terminate in her second trimester.
114
The whole point is that women and their physicians are the ones who need to make the choice of what type of procedure to utilize. Nobody is talking euphemisms here. Any by the way, no one does a D & C to terminate a pregnancy any longer. It's a first trimester aspiration, a medical abortion, a second trimester D & E, or an induction.
21
Many women do not in fact want to hold their dead fetus.
3
A partial-birth abortion allows the delivery of an intact fetus, and it allows grieving parents to say good-bye as Todd Fox described.
Partial birth abortions are no longer legal because republican lawmakers insisted upon playing doctor with women's lives.
The D&C abortion is the remaining option for pregnant women needing to terminate in the third trimester.
Partial birth abortions are no longer legal because republican lawmakers insisted upon playing doctor with women's lives.
The D&C abortion is the remaining option for pregnant women needing to terminate in the third trimester.
4
Lest anyone think I don't know what I am talking about, I helped a good friend get what is antiseptically called an evacuation and curettage in the late 1960's. The baby (I use the term unabashedly) was dismembered - missing it's left leg. The description you mock is accurate. The one you support is sanitized. If women are to be responsible in their decision making, they should know exactly how their baby is going to die.
For people who oppose abortion, this amounts to murder of an innocent, who has NO choice in the matter. If the women are going to fully take responsibility for their bodies, use birth control responsibly, have safe sex ONLY, and the problem resolves itself
For people who oppose abortion, this amounts to murder of an innocent, who has NO choice in the matter. If the women are going to fully take responsibility for their bodies, use birth control responsibly, have safe sex ONLY, and the problem resolves itself
12
So she is responsible if she is raped?
57
I don't see why you think everybody has to have your religious views--or how you manage to separate yourself from people who also oppose sex outside of marriage, contraception, and women's rights.
42
I take it then that you would make an exception for rape or incest? Since woman cant protect herself from that? So in general it is a punitive concept to deny abortion, justified by the failure of the woman to prevent a pregnancy? Any thoughts on severely defective fetus that cannot ever survive outside the womb?
53
It should be a crime for a politician to knowingly mislead and terrorize citizens with the equivalent of hate-based assertions that result in an impairment of a citizen's mental or physical health.
187
If you favor killing a viable fetus at 5 months then own it and use the truth. I'm against it, not a Christian, so the usual religious wrath can be spared, but they are not using the usual euphemisms and that's good. I don't believe in abortion after 20 weeks because the fetus can live outside the mother then and becomes a baby. Rape or incest, severe birth abnormalities are mitigating factors, but I think if you have waited that long to get an abortion then it's too late. I don't eXpect any one here to agree with me, but it's a baby.
4
This is an accurate description of how access to an abortion is being restricted in Kansas. It's death by 1,000 cuts, but if you're some one who is for this legislation or just anti-choice in general, then the Times Editorial is read as a good thing, an accurate description of a long hoped for and desirable outcome. Of course some one whose not would have a much different set of thoughts and feelings, but for some one who is anti-choice, it's all pretty good.
12
"It's death by 1,000 cuts."
An interesting choice of language, given the topic. You speak figuratively, but this bill seeks to protect a class of human beings from this fate literally.
An interesting choice of language, given the topic. You speak figuratively, but this bill seeks to protect a class of human beings from this fate literally.
3
You're saying it's great that Kansas responds to forced births by cutting Medicaid for those precious children that Kansas insisted be born?
27
I am such a Democrat that I still LOVE Obama, and it seems that is saying a lot these days. Yet, abortion is the ONE issue I wish we would reconsider. I cannot imagine the circumstances under which a pregnant woman cannot make a decision to terminate a pregnancy before twenty weeks. For God's sake, protect a woman's right to choose, but let's choose responsibly! Even at 13 weeks as the first trimester ends, the baby has hands and feet and is moving them around. Are sexually active women surprised they are pregnant and don't know it until month five? How is that possible? If this is so, then let's do a better job on the front end with education and health care. For a political party that is SO good to the disenfranchised and underrepresented, our position on abortion after the first trimester baffles me. I actually think we would be better off if we did not have the choice to terminate for so long. If it is not a medical necessity, let's move the date earlier.
13
You have a limited imagination. What about incest? For example, a father impregnates his teen daughter and then refuses to let her get an abortion until a responsible adult alerts the police, and a court intervenes? These situations take time to resolve, and the pregnant teen may well be in her second trimester by the time the court order is obtained.
118
Terminations at this state of pregnancy are usually due to severe deformities or other abnormalities of the fetus, many of which cannot be reliably detected until around the 20th to 22nd week.
502
Do some background reading. Less than 10 percent of abortions are performed at 20 weeks. They are generally done when the life of the mother is threatened or if the pregnancy continued might do long term damage to her health rendering another pregnancy impossible. Otherwise, the fetus is found to be unable to survive the pregnancy or if so, would suffer terribly due to complications upon birth. I suppose there are some cases where it slips over the line because politicians have made is so difficult and expensive to get an abortion, a woman who would have chosen to get one sooner but because she had to save more money to ocver 72 hour layovers and multiple visits to a clinic more than five hours away, is unable to meet the first trimester. Think about it. Who would continue a pregnancy up to 20 weeks and then decide to abort if it wasn't for a good reason? Women are not stupid.
174
We are going backwards. We are returning to religion over science. Soon we will be back to dangerous back alley abortions. We all know abstinence doesn't work. Safe sex should be taught in schools and condoms should be made more widely available. This is not encouraging under age sex it is encouraging safer sex so less abortions are needed. I'd be curious to delve into Gov. Brownback's background and reason for enacting these restrictive laws. We might discover it's more personal and a little of the Eliot Spitzer Syndrome. He already signed an executive order allowing LGBT discrimination. What is Sam so afraid of?
191
No matter what they say, this is certainly NOT a religious issue. The Bible does not prohibit abortion, though it has no problems being clear about things it finds wrong. So claiming this a religious issue is already loading the anti-choice side with a status that is unwarranted.
It is a matter of personal belief and deserves to be argued. When a human life begins cannot be scientifically decided. No matter what physiological events are pointed to, whether these indicate 'human life' falls outside science: it's a cultural, not a biological category.
But one thing seems perfectly clear: reasonable, good-hearted people can and do disagree about when human life begins. In this circumstance of widespread uncertainty, I cannot imagine defaulting to the position taken by people who claim to be absolutely certain beyond a reason to be so. This would be tyranny. No one is pushing them to get abortions, but they insist that others live by their personal sense of certainty that is really unwarranted (they themselves cannot, ever, successfully defend their certainty).
So to me, pro-choice is the only reasonable law of the land. This could change if and when the anti-choice side successfully persuade a vast majority of us that human life begins at conception. That's the burden on them. And they should work hard to do so. But until they do. I cannot support denying choice to early pregnancy women rather than the government.
It is a matter of personal belief and deserves to be argued. When a human life begins cannot be scientifically decided. No matter what physiological events are pointed to, whether these indicate 'human life' falls outside science: it's a cultural, not a biological category.
But one thing seems perfectly clear: reasonable, good-hearted people can and do disagree about when human life begins. In this circumstance of widespread uncertainty, I cannot imagine defaulting to the position taken by people who claim to be absolutely certain beyond a reason to be so. This would be tyranny. No one is pushing them to get abortions, but they insist that others live by their personal sense of certainty that is really unwarranted (they themselves cannot, ever, successfully defend their certainty).
So to me, pro-choice is the only reasonable law of the land. This could change if and when the anti-choice side successfully persuade a vast majority of us that human life begins at conception. That's the burden on them. And they should work hard to do so. But until they do. I cannot support denying choice to early pregnancy women rather than the government.
35
Since the 1973 Roe v. Wade case, American has regressed targetting womens' rights over their bodies, much of this driven by the Christian Fundamentalists.
It is not up to the State to decide on whether a women should be allowed to have an abortion, it is her decision and one not taken lightly.
The cases of doctor's being murdered for performing abortions, clinics being targeted by the extremists will only leave women in an imperious position to go down the road of backstreet abortionists.
It is not up to the State to decide on whether a women should be allowed to have an abortion, it is her decision and one not taken lightly.
The cases of doctor's being murdered for performing abortions, clinics being targeted by the extremists will only leave women in an imperious position to go down the road of backstreet abortionists.
112
Three cheers for Sam Brownback who believes that those who are not yet born - the innocent and most vulnerable - have the right to see the sun.
Let there be life.
Let there be life.
6
Yep until those kids are born and then they're on their own. Once they're born they become "takers" and aren't deemed deserving of education, a safe clean environment, good nutrition etc.
314
And then when we get them here let's be sure to cut back on social services and welfare and food stamps and education and throw money at wars and the incarceration industry.
Just be sure, Eric, that you are there for all these unwanted children, willing to chip in economically to raise and educate and care for them, OK?
Just be sure, Eric, that you are there for all these unwanted children, willing to chip in economically to raise and educate and care for them, OK?
183
This won't stop any abortions, it just makes them less safe for the women who have them.
69
"The anti-abortion activists in Kansas avoided actual medical terminology in drafting Senate Bill 95".
This bill is simply using plain language that would inform the public on what is precisely being outlawed. It is odd that abortion proponents would rather talk about anything other than defining what an abortion actually is. The fact is, this bill will not allow doctors to dismember unborn human beings except when necessary to prevent irreversible danger to the mother. How is this deemed "extreme"? When put in plain language, I cannot see why this is not a good thing.
The pro-life position holds:
1. All innocent human beings should be afforded protections under the law.
2. The unborn is an innocent human being.
3. Therefore, the unborn should be afforded protections under the law.
The primary purpose of government is to secure our inalienable right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Life, must be chief among these inalienable rights. You cannot have liberty or freedom if you do not at least have life.
This bill is simply using plain language that would inform the public on what is precisely being outlawed. It is odd that abortion proponents would rather talk about anything other than defining what an abortion actually is. The fact is, this bill will not allow doctors to dismember unborn human beings except when necessary to prevent irreversible danger to the mother. How is this deemed "extreme"? When put in plain language, I cannot see why this is not a good thing.
The pro-life position holds:
1. All innocent human beings should be afforded protections under the law.
2. The unborn is an innocent human being.
3. Therefore, the unborn should be afforded protections under the law.
The primary purpose of government is to secure our inalienable right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Life, must be chief among these inalienable rights. You cannot have liberty or freedom if you do not at least have life.
4
*correction - "...except wen necessary to prevent irreversible bodily harm to the mother." not danger
2
I think it's only fair that people know exactly what happens during any medical procedure but I lost all respect for "pro lifers" long ago when I realized that they were aligning themselves with politicians who make it harder to avoid unwanted pregnancies. If you're really pro life you'll take great care with when and how life is created.
49
I would be more open to your message if:
-- Those who oppose abortion weren't often also opposed to sex education and ready access to birth control; and
-- Those in the GOP who have jumped on the anti-abortion bandwagon were more open to helping and supporting those in need AFTER they're born.
-- Those who oppose abortion weren't often also opposed to sex education and ready access to birth control; and
-- Those in the GOP who have jumped on the anti-abortion bandwagon were more open to helping and supporting those in need AFTER they're born.
60
Do you notice that it is always men who make these laws?
291
If men got pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament.
35
Sorry to disagree with your implication here but has it ever occurred to you that because men don't get pregnant they might be more objective about these issues? In an era when birth control is so widely and generously available, our abortion rate is scandalous. The rights of the unborn are perfectly legitimate public policy concerns.
5
And the ones, for the most part, providing supportive comments.
9
So much for the "Pro-Life" movement: it will make some exceptions. Thus, there are no absolutes, contrary to what they propound.
But what will save the teenager from parental physical abuse when her pregnancy is found out? What will save a woman from a self-induced or charlatan-provided abortion? Why is a rape victim's psychological stress not considered bodily harm?
This law violates the sanctity of the doctor-patient relationship.