Is Russia looking to divide the E.U. or integrate into the union.
2
There's an old saying that goes...."Beggars can't be choosy". Obviously, Putin is taking advantage of depressed economies to win their allegiance. It's just like usury in which a loan shark lends money to a desperate person and then they are on the hook indefinitely. Putin certainly is old K.G.B. military.
4
So we have on one hand people in Ukraine who had been demonstrating by hundreds of thousands, in bitter winter cold, for months (Maidan Winter 2013/14) protesting their (then, since fled) autocratic thieving rulers decision to forgo European Union and join an economic block with Russia. 100+ of these demonstrators lost their lives. Russia back then was promising Ukraine tens of billions of dollars in that deal. EU was NOT promising anything, was instead REQUIRING introduction of multiple strict laws. Those demonstrators knew that. Today, those laws are being introduced in Ukraine, despite not-that-immediate EU membership prospects.
On the other hand, we have now (2015) Greece, an European Union member state, seeking closer ties and possibly financial assistance from Russia.
Make one wonder... The only requirement of King Darius I of Persia (Antiquity) for Greeks was that Greeks recognize his rule, there were no demands for tributes etc. Joining Persian empire would be even probably beneficial economically (think of those Asian markets!). The Athenians, having freshly established democracy, against all odds (Persia was BIG) decided to fight against the Persian tyrant. So we in Europe have now the Marathon (true) legend. Do they teach history in Greece nowadays?
On the other hand, we have now (2015) Greece, an European Union member state, seeking closer ties and possibly financial assistance from Russia.
Make one wonder... The only requirement of King Darius I of Persia (Antiquity) for Greeks was that Greeks recognize his rule, there were no demands for tributes etc. Joining Persian empire would be even probably beneficial economically (think of those Asian markets!). The Athenians, having freshly established democracy, against all odds (Persia was BIG) decided to fight against the Persian tyrant. So we in Europe have now the Marathon (true) legend. Do they teach history in Greece nowadays?
10
Greece, the eastern flank of NATO, should play Russia against as much as possible since we have NEVER valued Greek for its roles in OUR defense.
3
Mr. Tsipras is in a position to make the EU and the United States sweat, and he should play the game for all its worth.
I've no doubt whatsoever that negotiations behind the scenes are occurring, between Mr. Tsipras and the EU, with the United States adding its two cents, to make a deal with Mr. Tsipras to prevent Putin from exerting influence over Greece.
Imagine major Russian naval bases, at several Greek ports in the Mediterranean. Must be causing great angst in the west ...
I've no doubt whatsoever that negotiations behind the scenes are occurring, between Mr. Tsipras and the EU, with the United States adding its two cents, to make a deal with Mr. Tsipras to prevent Putin from exerting influence over Greece.
Imagine major Russian naval bases, at several Greek ports in the Mediterranean. Must be causing great angst in the west ...
6
Like Ouzo for Vodka,,,just trying to figure out the potential for a trading partnership.
It's looking a lot like frying Pan Slavism into the fire.
It's looking a lot like frying Pan Slavism into the fire.
2
When you back peoplel into a corner, you have to expect them not to follow your dictations. We've backed Russia into a corner by instigating the overthrow of the Ukrainian government and Europe has backed Greece into a corner.
10
The government of Greece has to put the interests of Greece first.
If that means that they must threaten to upset the apple cart of the EU, then that is what they need to do.
Take Germany to the World Court to push the reparations claim.
Threaten to break the sanctions against Russia.
Tell the EU that not only will they leave the Union, but they will encourage other countries to do so as well.
If this is what needs to be done to force a better deal, then they must seize every straw they can.
Bankrupting the country and abandoning Greek pensioners by following German austerity plans can't be any worse than leaving the EU and reverting to the Drachma.
If that means that they must threaten to upset the apple cart of the EU, then that is what they need to do.
Take Germany to the World Court to push the reparations claim.
Threaten to break the sanctions against Russia.
Tell the EU that not only will they leave the Union, but they will encourage other countries to do so as well.
If this is what needs to be done to force a better deal, then they must seize every straw they can.
Bankrupting the country and abandoning Greek pensioners by following German austerity plans can't be any worse than leaving the EU and reverting to the Drachma.
9
So, the US tells the EU to put sanctions on Russia (and don't tell me they decided to do this all by themselves). Greece, already suffering from the austerity measures of the IMF, now sees a large part of their exports disappear.
They are supposed to put up with this?
They are supposed to put up with this?
10
Mr. Tsipras appears to be a deeply immature leader whose quixotic behavior should be alarming to the world. At time when his country needs a wise old head, he is acting like a child in the midst of a temper tantrum. Putin is the closest toy he could throw at the West, but in the end it is his people who will be stuck with the toy he broke.
24
"... it might be tempting — though misguided ..."
"...renewed periodically and all members of the European Union — including Greece — have to agree to extend them."
Perhaps in the birthplace of democratic thought, a vote will be cast, that will begin to correct the first 21st century Geo-political spooky-tomfoolery monumental goof.
"... not to let himself be used to undermine European unity."
Though he should feel very free (pun) to engage in relationships that will save "misguided' democracy, from itself.
Spring, 1980. I'm taking my occasional stroll thru Architecture class. Asking fellow students how things are going, commenting on their work. (As a way to establish rapport, and myself as a uniter.). Only this time I say to the gang. "We're friends with the Soviets. They're buying property here, we're going there. Natasha is all over the place." High-fives surely would have abounded. Then adding, "And by the merry way, we're giving Iran nuclear energy." Needless to say, that would have been the end of my team building exercises.
"...renewed periodically and all members of the European Union — including Greece — have to agree to extend them."
Perhaps in the birthplace of democratic thought, a vote will be cast, that will begin to correct the first 21st century Geo-political spooky-tomfoolery monumental goof.
"... not to let himself be used to undermine European unity."
Though he should feel very free (pun) to engage in relationships that will save "misguided' democracy, from itself.
Spring, 1980. I'm taking my occasional stroll thru Architecture class. Asking fellow students how things are going, commenting on their work. (As a way to establish rapport, and myself as a uniter.). Only this time I say to the gang. "We're friends with the Soviets. They're buying property here, we're going there. Natasha is all over the place." High-fives surely would have abounded. Then adding, "And by the merry way, we're giving Iran nuclear energy." Needless to say, that would have been the end of my team building exercises.
1
By all means embrace historic Russian good will. Greece can then enjoy the benefits of a newer albeit smaller and slightly dangerously dictatorial set of true friends who will undoubtedly make sacrifices on Greece's behalf.
17
The European currency union is a disaster for Southern European countries .
Pre the Euro countries like Greece would see their currency devalue if they ran into economic problems and this would discourage import of expensive products ,like German cars and encourage tourism to Greece.
They were also able to apply hidden tariffs on cars which caused exporters to structure a more favorable pricing structure for the Greeks.
A similar situation prevailed in Italy and Spain who also benefited from a strong
manufacturing base which has been eroded significantly since they adopted the Euro .
The real answer is not to seek help from Russia but to negotiate an end to the currency union and allow all European countries to run their own affairs free of bureaucracy from Brussels , Strasborg etc .
Pre the Euro countries like Greece would see their currency devalue if they ran into economic problems and this would discourage import of expensive products ,like German cars and encourage tourism to Greece.
They were also able to apply hidden tariffs on cars which caused exporters to structure a more favorable pricing structure for the Greeks.
A similar situation prevailed in Italy and Spain who also benefited from a strong
manufacturing base which has been eroded significantly since they adopted the Euro .
The real answer is not to seek help from Russia but to negotiate an end to the currency union and allow all European countries to run their own affairs free of bureaucracy from Brussels , Strasborg etc .
13
It worked before. I suspect it would work again. Common currency was a lousy idea at the outset. A rising tide lifts all boats; a waning tide sinks all boats.
4
The Greek Prime Minister is playing with fire, and probably won't realize it until he goes up in flames. While blaming the Germans for austerity measures, he also started demanding reparations for WWII, before attaching himself to Mr. Putin. The whole business smacks of desperation, and doesn't bode well for the future of the Greek economy...or for Mr. Tsipras.
24
The last two words in your article say it all. The EU demands unity when it suits it politically or economically, but forgets all about it when a (small) EU member is in difficulties. Russia was the largest trading partner of Greece (mostly agricultural exports) and it is absurd to expect Greece to agree to give up that source of income in its hour of need, whilst simultaneously being treated as a vassal state by the Troika. With "friends" like these who needs enemies?
Does Greece need reform? Of course it does. Can it do more in that direction? Absolutely. Has it been treated fairly by the EU? Absolutely not. One can even say it has been treated viciously. The fact is that the conditions attached to the lending of funds to Greece would make Shylock seem generous. They could not have been designed better had the objective been to ensure the country would be paying the loans back for ever.
Never mind the rise of the Syriza party in Greece, the EU has bigger problems with the rise of anti-EU parties that are now challenging the established parties in France, UK, etc. Large segments of the European population (perhaps the majority) do not see the EU as caring one iota about them but see a collection of remote institutions run by un-elected bureaucrats. True, Greece should be wary of opportunistic friends, but should absolutely ignore the "interests" of the EU in exactly the same way as they ignore the suffering of the Greek population and pursue its own interests above all.
Does Greece need reform? Of course it does. Can it do more in that direction? Absolutely. Has it been treated fairly by the EU? Absolutely not. One can even say it has been treated viciously. The fact is that the conditions attached to the lending of funds to Greece would make Shylock seem generous. They could not have been designed better had the objective been to ensure the country would be paying the loans back for ever.
Never mind the rise of the Syriza party in Greece, the EU has bigger problems with the rise of anti-EU parties that are now challenging the established parties in France, UK, etc. Large segments of the European population (perhaps the majority) do not see the EU as caring one iota about them but see a collection of remote institutions run by un-elected bureaucrats. True, Greece should be wary of opportunistic friends, but should absolutely ignore the "interests" of the EU in exactly the same way as they ignore the suffering of the Greek population and pursue its own interests above all.
26
Guys, this is REALLY weak. Not a convincing sentence/argument in it, starting w the first:
"The Greek government is facing a series of daunting challenges. It has to come up with money to pay off maturing debts, revive its devastated economy and renegotiate its loan agreements with other countries in the eurozone. Given those difficulties, it might be tempting — though misguided — for Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras to seek financial or other support from President Vladimir Putin of Russia ..."
And then everything that follows only demonstrates why it makes perfect sense for Tsipras to meet Putin, so don't see where misguided comes in. (But then we're living in a time when the president of the United States would cancel a summit with the Russian leader because the two sides have nothing in common; i.e., why summits were once held is now why they're canceled.
Then there's this: "Mr. Putin has shown a keen interest in exploiting divisions within the European Union for his own gain."
Oh, you bad boy!!
"The Greek government is facing a series of daunting challenges. It has to come up with money to pay off maturing debts, revive its devastated economy and renegotiate its loan agreements with other countries in the eurozone. Given those difficulties, it might be tempting — though misguided — for Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras to seek financial or other support from President Vladimir Putin of Russia ..."
And then everything that follows only demonstrates why it makes perfect sense for Tsipras to meet Putin, so don't see where misguided comes in. (But then we're living in a time when the president of the United States would cancel a summit with the Russian leader because the two sides have nothing in common; i.e., why summits were once held is now why they're canceled.
Then there's this: "Mr. Putin has shown a keen interest in exploiting divisions within the European Union for his own gain."
Oh, you bad boy!!
20
An editorial to Times readers is mis-aimed.
Why not message the escapists now responsible for Greece's government?
'Why-not' is because they would ignore any such message and are not mature enough to ignore any Putin attempts to stick a finger in NATO's or the EU's eyes.
Greece's free-loaders are not mature, are not responsible, and honestly think other nations' reasonable fiscal managers owe Greece.
These free-loaders do not understand reason -- just pleasure/pain. Like Putin. Dealing with such types, the main risk is tipping them towards war.
Why not message the escapists now responsible for Greece's government?
'Why-not' is because they would ignore any such message and are not mature enough to ignore any Putin attempts to stick a finger in NATO's or the EU's eyes.
Greece's free-loaders are not mature, are not responsible, and honestly think other nations' reasonable fiscal managers owe Greece.
These free-loaders do not understand reason -- just pleasure/pain. Like Putin. Dealing with such types, the main risk is tipping them towards war.
8
And Greece should trust the Troika? Incredible naïveté or willful blindness keeps you obsessed with everything other than the real issue: the forced privatization of Europe, shredding of the social safety net and sale of state assets at distressed prices. All to ensure investors pockets are lined, at the expense of the people.
32
"Of course, Germany and other eurozone members also need to work more constructively with Mr. Tsipras. They can start by granting Greece more flexibility in how and when it repays its debts and how it reforms its economy." They might also start by shedding the self-righteous and fairly racist attitude towards the Greeks whom they consider slovenly and corrupt. Greeks did not get into this mess all by themselves. I don't fault the Greeks for using any pressure points they can garner in their struggle against the overbearing Germans and Dutch. Of course, your point is well-taken. Dealing with the Russians would be worse.
16
The US has not offered to help. It's happy to watch the EU impose austerity reforms. No one wants to help the poor. The US only helps the banks and The IMF. The German's should repay their war debts. (that's something the US is going to be libel for in the future as well) I spent a lot of time in Greece in the mid seventies after the dictator colonels were deposed (the colonels were financed by US funds). Every house had a Canadian flag and a photo of John Kennedy. After the US had turned on them, the Greeks only hope was Jimmy Carter. The US should either help Greece now or shut up. Your state department already ruined the Ukraine.
11
It is a little tiring to hear the same old we are victims and give us money solution from Greece. The dictators were half a century ago and not an excuse. Greece lived way beyond its means on other peoples money and then lied about what its financial condition was and then voted in a new government that for all practical purposes that just wants to go back to the same living on other countries money. No one likes to see the austerity forced Greece but at the same time Greece's so called solutions seem for the most part other a claim it might do a better job of collecting taxes are simply demands to return to the same oversized military and civil service and social benefits higher than the countries it has already short changed. Perhaps if Greece would propose a serious solution that shows a light at the other end of the tunnel it might get some help.
13
So Putin in a roundabout way may provide the impetus for the EU and Greece to settle their differences in a constructive and amicable way. That would be the perfect scenario to have Putins machinations blow up in his face.
18
Greece has to do reforms, for their own benefit. With their fraudulent tax-system and incrusted bureaucracy they will never prosper and always remain suppliants. Putin is just another milestone in this marathon of kicking the can down the road.
40
Rather than "Greece Should Be Wary of Mr. Putin" it should rather be that the US, Germany, France, Ukraine, Greece, Russia, UK etc. etc. stop acting like children who really need to fight with each other, and instead act with wisdom and solve their common problems? The reality is that the deeper problems facing these countries are the same (notably demographic collapse), and all this useless fighting only weakens them.
10
Tsipras' overtures to Russia are likely a way to put indirect pressure on Germany and the EU, emphasizing Greece's ability to disrupt EU policy. Or it could be a deep fallback position, in the case where Greece does end up exiting the Euro.
But in any case this kind of policy should be pursued with caution : European foreign policy is slowly coalescing into a more united form, and this occurs in part in opposition to Russia. Straddling the divide between the Russian and European spheres is likely to get more difficult with time, with ambivalence not rewarded by either side.
And given Greece's combination of economic meltdown and chronic noncompliance with the European framework designed to remedy it, Greece may find its EU partners calling its bluff.
But in any case this kind of policy should be pursued with caution : European foreign policy is slowly coalescing into a more united form, and this occurs in part in opposition to Russia. Straddling the divide between the Russian and European spheres is likely to get more difficult with time, with ambivalence not rewarded by either side.
And given Greece's combination of economic meltdown and chronic noncompliance with the European framework designed to remedy it, Greece may find its EU partners calling its bluff.
27
Of course.
But the demise of the Soviet Union and its official ideology (in theory, government for the common people by common ownership and control of capital--the means of production) has helped create the delusion that plutocracy--government by the 1%--is somehow government for the common people.
Also "of course"--the corrupt USSR is not to be confused with its official ideology any more than the Catholic Church is to be confused with the teachings of Jesus. Or any of the corrupt plutocracies--aka Banana Republics--are to be confused with the teachings of Adam Smith.
But yes--beware of Trojan horses.
But the demise of the Soviet Union and its official ideology (in theory, government for the common people by common ownership and control of capital--the means of production) has helped create the delusion that plutocracy--government by the 1%--is somehow government for the common people.
Also "of course"--the corrupt USSR is not to be confused with its official ideology any more than the Catholic Church is to be confused with the teachings of Jesus. Or any of the corrupt plutocracies--aka Banana Republics--are to be confused with the teachings of Adam Smith.
But yes--beware of Trojan horses.
14