On the other hand, maybe it is time for US government to rethink our strategic alliance in the middle east. I still could not figure out for the life of me why we are "allies" with Saudi Arabia and especially Pakistan. The ideological divide is literally starring us in the face. And more than once ISI has proved treacherous to our cause. Why are we playing the game and dancing with the beast?
18
Great piece. I'm glad this discussion is going on. My question, though, is why Muslims sometimes turn to violence, when many other countries and faiths also suffered colonialism, orientalism, etc. If just any religion can be a handy excuse for extremism, why is there no real equivalent to Al Qaeda attacks on the West from, say, Buddhists? Clearly, a legacy of Islamic supremacy motivates many Islamists. They believe Islam not only can rule the world, it should. That's the key difference that makes Islam a special case.
17
What if the long-anticipated and hoped-for Islamic Reformation is actually taking place right now in terms of increased radicalization and violence? As the number of Islam's devotees grows along with increased access of the Prophet's words in the Koran through various print and internet sources so seemingly does the violence of many of his followers. Reformation carries a positive denotation for most of us but in actuality it only means a significant change of long standing cultural values. I will leave it up to each individual reader to ascertain which direction the change in Islam is headed.
6
I will not believe Islam is peaceable until the Islamic nations stop using Islamic law, with its brutality, for criminal and civil laws.
19
"We try to explain that they are asking the wrong question,” he said. Religion, he argued, was “just a veneer” for anger at the dysfunctional Arab states left behind by colonial powers and the “Orientalist” condescension many Arabs still feel from the West".
I do not buy this argument. Colonialism/condescension are not valid arguments. Africans, Indians (majority Hindu), South and Central Americans were also colonized, but the people from these countries do not engage in terrorism. Islam has a malignancy that its adherents must find a cure for or it will further mutate and will not only kill its own but also others in the process. Islam as it is practiced, is more akin to political ideology than an organized religious order.
I do not buy this argument. Colonialism/condescension are not valid arguments. Africans, Indians (majority Hindu), South and Central Americans were also colonized, but the people from these countries do not engage in terrorism. Islam has a malignancy that its adherents must find a cure for or it will further mutate and will not only kill its own but also others in the process. Islam as it is practiced, is more akin to political ideology than an organized religious order.
12
Whether Islam is or is not a violent religion is a matter of opinion or faith. However it is both in the interest of those who profess to be in the center of Islam as well as those who are living is societies where Muslims are a minority to move against Islamic extremism.
If the moderates or centrist majority of Muslims do not move against Islamic extremist, the extremist will move against the center majority. In case you have not noticed, more Muslims have been killed by Islamic extremists than members of other religions. "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" George Santayana
If the moderates or centrist majority of Muslims do not move against Islamic extremist, the extremist will move against the center majority. In case you have not noticed, more Muslims have been killed by Islamic extremists than members of other religions. "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" George Santayana
7
Finally, an acknowledgement of President Sisi and his very courageous New Years Day speech. He has been fighting the same fight against radical jihadism his entire career and understand the death and destruction that it brings to everyone in its path. He understands this far, far better than the talking heads, politicians, and journalists of the west. Even this column attempts to defend the Muslim Brotherhood, which is the driving force behind so much of radical Islamism.
Have the courage to be honest about this. The problem is with Islam, not with the rest of the world.
Have the courage to be honest about this. The problem is with Islam, not with the rest of the world.
15
The bottom line is that the negatives in Islam outweigh its positives. For the most part, Islam is a fear-based and harsh religion, and no matter how Muslims try to defend their religion, they must admit that it does tilt toward violence and misogyny. I’ve heard that this religion has apparently ‘branched’ into different and ‘newer’ versions. But unfortunately, one seems to be worst that the other.
I don’t want to overgeneralize. I’m not saying all Muslims have violent or misogynistic tendencies. It may bring the good out of some people. My grandparents were Muslims and they were some of the most genuine and gentle people I’ve ever known. But it was different for them. They were born into it and had no other options. They simply practiced what they were taught by their parents, school, or society at the time.
The world is different now. Most of us have options to choose or not to choose our religion. Most of us have access to learn about science, history and evolution. We can all communicate and learn about each other via internet. I would question people, especially if they live in a Western society today, and CHOOSE to practice Islam.
I don’t want to overgeneralize. I’m not saying all Muslims have violent or misogynistic tendencies. It may bring the good out of some people. My grandparents were Muslims and they were some of the most genuine and gentle people I’ve ever known. But it was different for them. They were born into it and had no other options. They simply practiced what they were taught by their parents, school, or society at the time.
The world is different now. Most of us have options to choose or not to choose our religion. Most of us have access to learn about science, history and evolution. We can all communicate and learn about each other via internet. I would question people, especially if they live in a Western society today, and CHOOSE to practice Islam.
11
Reading through the comments on this and other related articles and op-eds, I would estimate that roughly 90% of the commenters believe that the violence is inherent to and reflective of Islam, NOT that such incidents are isolated or unrepresentative. Whether or not this is true, if such a large majority of the NYT readers (people who are typically more educated and liberal than the general population) believes this, then Islam has a major image problem.
18
OK, I'll just say it. There's something seriously wrong with Islam. I don't know what it is, that's for the far better informed than I to figure out, but I've tried to imagine a hundred Timothy McVeighs, maybe a thousand, ten thousand, and I can't manage it. It would never happen. Yes, I said never. Never happen. There is something fundamentally, lethally, morally wrong with this religion and the culture steeped in it.
18
I find the title of this article really concerning. Why is it Raising Questions "within Islam" and not Raising Questions "within the muslim community" or more broadly "Raising Questions About Islam After France Shooting." The article is not confined to only muslim perspectives about Islam, rather focusing on non-muslims perception of the religion. There is an underlying tone to the article.
Islam is not a centralized religion. The idea that there is a leader of Islam (like a pope) or a single canonized interpretation of anything in Islam is false. There are tons of muslims decrying violence all over the world, but no one really cares about those people (my people!).
We in the West tend to hold to this view that these terrorists are an attack against Western civilization and/or Christianity. What we miss is that the biggest targets and victims of these terrorists are muslims. But frankly, we really don't care about terrorists blowing up people in Pakistan and only focus on terrorism when it happens in Europe/America.
Does anyone think these terrorists actually care about Islam? To muslims it is super obvious that these people are not following the tenets of Islam. Islam is just a guise for these power hungry crazy people. In 20 years it will be some new philosophy/idea driving terrorism. People preying on and manipulating the weak, hungry, uneducated, and disenfranchised will never end. That is not a question to be raised about Islam, but about human nature.
Islam is not a centralized religion. The idea that there is a leader of Islam (like a pope) or a single canonized interpretation of anything in Islam is false. There are tons of muslims decrying violence all over the world, but no one really cares about those people (my people!).
We in the West tend to hold to this view that these terrorists are an attack against Western civilization and/or Christianity. What we miss is that the biggest targets and victims of these terrorists are muslims. But frankly, we really don't care about terrorists blowing up people in Pakistan and only focus on terrorism when it happens in Europe/America.
Does anyone think these terrorists actually care about Islam? To muslims it is super obvious that these people are not following the tenets of Islam. Islam is just a guise for these power hungry crazy people. In 20 years it will be some new philosophy/idea driving terrorism. People preying on and manipulating the weak, hungry, uneducated, and disenfranchised will never end. That is not a question to be raised about Islam, but about human nature.
17
I am pleased to see that the NYT has finally noticed Egyptian President al-Sisi's call for a revolution in Islam - the equivalent of the Reformation that the Church underwent several hundred years ago. This is a watershed moment - it's the first time someone of his stature in the Islamic world has dared to say such a thing. Let's hope others are listening, too.
6
It would be nice if someone did an exhaustive study of how the non-Muslims (people who practice other religions or are agnostics or atheists) are treated in Muslim majority countries - Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Egypt, Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Indonesia etc.- and offer up an equal treatment deal to all the Muslims (militant and non-militant kind) around the world. The deal is that if Muslims want respect for their religion, prophet and Koran and a freedom to practice it freely in a non-Muslim country (USA, Europe, India etc.) then they have to give the same level of respect to non-Muslims in Muslim majority countries (Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Egypt, Iran, Iraq etc.).
But wait - there is hardly any non-Muslims left in these Muslim majority countries. They have been driven out, converted by force or marriage (if non-Muslims marry a Muslim they are forced to convert while if a Muslim wants to convert they are killed), killed, pushed underground or are forced to live by Islamic Sharia laws.
Muslims want a special status for Islam where everybody in the world has to respect their religion, prophet and the holy book while they have the freedom to denigrate other religions by calling the practitioners of other religions as Kafirs and in-Fidels.
Until they are willing to change, I say - Go pound sand.
But wait - there is hardly any non-Muslims left in these Muslim majority countries. They have been driven out, converted by force or marriage (if non-Muslims marry a Muslim they are forced to convert while if a Muslim wants to convert they are killed), killed, pushed underground or are forced to live by Islamic Sharia laws.
Muslims want a special status for Islam where everybody in the world has to respect their religion, prophet and the holy book while they have the freedom to denigrate other religions by calling the practitioners of other religions as Kafirs and in-Fidels.
Until they are willing to change, I say - Go pound sand.
22
Statistics about "ordinary" violence in Islamic countries are not satisfying no matter what positive light they may reflect upon Islam. Those statistics emerge from places where religious observance is compelled - which in itself undermines faith by preempting its voluntary aspect. Comparing those data to post-industrial secular societies is not productive in my opinion. It would be better to compare them to other totalitarian states. I'm sure the murder rate (the rate for those not committed by the state itself at least) in Saddam's Iraq was equally low. Secondly, no matter how many verses extol "tolerance, peace and freedom", there are other graphic passages in the Qu'ran that exhort the faithful to violence against "infidels" rather than letting God deal with them. Encouraging the faithful to serve as judge, jury *and* executioner is not a recipe for tolerance. Then there are the actions of the prophet himself - taking up the sword. As any parent knows, the "do as I say not as I do" approach doesn't work. Harqan asks the right question - and clerics have a serious challenge fomulating an answer that explains why the prophet's own use of the sword should not set an example for his followers. I believe there is a darkness at the heart of this particular faith that is not found in others.
10
Just because we are a democracy and we have the freedom of speech does not imply we should denigrate any religious deity that is revered and worshiped by a segment of our global society. I also do not feel Islamic terrorism is due to Muslims being disfranchised and poor. India is poor and a large number called Dalit or untouchable coexisted peacefully for centuries because Hinduism does not encourage violence even though their deities shri Ram and shri Krishna have blood on their hands because they participated in local wars. religion and not social conditions are responsible for terrorism. Terrorism mostly started in late 1940s when religion was used to establish two nation states. Before that wars were fought for territories and ideologies capitalism vs communism
1
Right from their origin, both Islam and Christianity, have been the religions of sword and remains so still explicitly or implicitly. However, the latter also demands unrequited obedience and submission, communal-ism, etc.
On the contrary, the eastern religions like Hinduism, Buddhism and also to some extent, Judaism too, emphasize individual salvation and inner peace and condemn violence and its imposition on others.
I am sure not all Muslims subscribe to its jihad like attributes, yet most remain quietly loyal to its teachings and just are not comfortable to condemn the violence in its name for fear of retribution, excommunication etc.
On the contrary, the eastern religions like Hinduism, Buddhism and also to some extent, Judaism too, emphasize individual salvation and inner peace and condemn violence and its imposition on others.
I am sure not all Muslims subscribe to its jihad like attributes, yet most remain quietly loyal to its teachings and just are not comfortable to condemn the violence in its name for fear of retribution, excommunication etc.
3
It is axiomatic of religion that it attracts the weak, the gullible, and the ignorant. It's hardly surprising when that goes badly. It has done so for centuries.
6
Religious and nationalistic Ignorance is the enemy of civilization.
The uneducated are more easily roused to violence. The call for 'jihad' such as it is, is being heard by masses of the disaffected who are inclined to heed it with senseless and heinous acts.
The antidote is not a simple one, nor is it surefire. Blaming it on Islam is easy, but I don't think it is helpful.
The uneducated are more easily roused to violence. The call for 'jihad' such as it is, is being heard by masses of the disaffected who are inclined to heed it with senseless and heinous acts.
The antidote is not a simple one, nor is it surefire. Blaming it on Islam is easy, but I don't think it is helpful.
5
There are many questions about Muslim's in the West but the one that confounds me most is why now?
Wahhabism, the most conservative branch of the Sunni Muslim's has been around for hundreds of years. The US has been actively involved in the Middle East since WWII and Europe's old colonial powers have been out of direct influence over Arab states for the last fifty years.
Certainly the internet and cell phones allow for even the smallest of sects to have a big voice, well out of proportion to any actual following, but even that can only be a partial explanation. Similarly the concept of jihad and its distortion from "personal struggle to cleanse oneself" to war against infidels is only a partial explanation. So why have some Islamic adherents decided to wage war against the West now, especially those who have moved to the West?
I am no expert, but it seems that many of these attacks coincide with the US wars in the Middle East beginning in 1990. Despite Obama's protestations it's clear some Muslims see us waging war against Islam, not a war against terrorism.
I'm not suggesting a direct causal link here, but one has to ask why all these jihadist groups seem to have emerged after that date when the conservative philosophy that they reflect precedes US military presence in the region by a hundred years?
Wahhabism, the most conservative branch of the Sunni Muslim's has been around for hundreds of years. The US has been actively involved in the Middle East since WWII and Europe's old colonial powers have been out of direct influence over Arab states for the last fifty years.
Certainly the internet and cell phones allow for even the smallest of sects to have a big voice, well out of proportion to any actual following, but even that can only be a partial explanation. Similarly the concept of jihad and its distortion from "personal struggle to cleanse oneself" to war against infidels is only a partial explanation. So why have some Islamic adherents decided to wage war against the West now, especially those who have moved to the West?
I am no expert, but it seems that many of these attacks coincide with the US wars in the Middle East beginning in 1990. Despite Obama's protestations it's clear some Muslims see us waging war against Islam, not a war against terrorism.
I'm not suggesting a direct causal link here, but one has to ask why all these jihadist groups seem to have emerged after that date when the conservative philosophy that they reflect precedes US military presence in the region by a hundred years?
1
Islam is not an inherently violent religion. It is, however, a very authoritarian one. One of the goals of this sort of authority is to prevent violence amongst its believers. But if that authority or its laws are questioned, the results can be extremely violent.
The West was once like this until cultural revolutions such as the Age of Enlightenment elevated the notion of individual rights. There will need to be a similar revolution within the Muslim world for this kind of terrorist violence to stop.
The West was once like this until cultural revolutions such as the Age of Enlightenment elevated the notion of individual rights. There will need to be a similar revolution within the Muslim world for this kind of terrorist violence to stop.
15
This was no more about Islam than the siege of Constantinople was about the gospels, Mr. Breivik's action was about being Norwegian, or the 1982 Hyde Park bombing was about being Catholic. The actions in Paris were homicides. Terrorism only exists as a concept because we make it so and calling it "terrorism" falsely elevates the successful outcome for the perpetrators by giving them a political or religious ideology platform that others then emulate. The quality of the action should not be dependent on motivation - killing is barbaric. If twelve people were killed during a robbery in Paris this week, it would make a short-lived, tragic headline. At the end of the day, the result is the same- victims murdered.
14
The Egyptian athiest, Ahmed Harqan, quoted in the article is right. Religions are inherently violent. The only way civilization will move away from violence is to reject the concept that anyone has the right to force others to behave in a certain way because "God is on my side, not yours".
Not only was Mohammed violent, but all other religions have been (or still are) violent. From the St. Bartholomew's Day massacre in France (where the Catholics across France rose up and killed their Protestant neighbors) to the Mountain Meadows massacre not far from where I live (where Mormons murdered 120 men, women, and children in cold blood) religion has been the source of violence throughout history. It's time to put an end to it.
(ps ... Inevitably, some religionist will say, "What about those athiest communists?" My reply is that any creed based on blind faith qualifies as a religion. Hitler, Stalin, and Mao were all equivalent to "gods" in everything but name. In less sophisticated times, an Egyptian pharoh or a Roman emperor would have himself declared to be a 'god'. The key is not the word you use - the key is blind obedience.)
Not only was Mohammed violent, but all other religions have been (or still are) violent. From the St. Bartholomew's Day massacre in France (where the Catholics across France rose up and killed their Protestant neighbors) to the Mountain Meadows massacre not far from where I live (where Mormons murdered 120 men, women, and children in cold blood) religion has been the source of violence throughout history. It's time to put an end to it.
(ps ... Inevitably, some religionist will say, "What about those athiest communists?" My reply is that any creed based on blind faith qualifies as a religion. Hitler, Stalin, and Mao were all equivalent to "gods" in everything but name. In less sophisticated times, an Egyptian pharoh or a Roman emperor would have himself declared to be a 'god'. The key is not the word you use - the key is blind obedience.)
7
I don't wish to sound conspiratorial but the fact is there are people whom have learned how to be very effective ay manipulating human weaknesses. One of the most effective tools is religion which with its insistence on or tradition "faith" in whatever the dogma is said to be allows people to "teach" the susceptible almost anything that can later be used to get the student to do things for the teacher. That is it in a nutshell the IRL application of it is more messy and broken and not as straight forward as the description might make it seem yet it serves the progenitors purpose of undermining the paradigm as a way of gaining whatever it is they seek. It is usually money and power.
The other issue with Islam is that it never had a central base like Christianity did in the Roman Empire. So there is no central creed and no central authority figure like the Pope to dictate what is within or without of the dogma. It seems anyone politic enough and able to read the Koran can lift themselves up by preaching not unlike modern protestantisms latest invention "evangelical" in the US.
The wild differences between almost every Iman is pretty much why Rome adopted Christianity and then had the first Council of Nicea to rationalise and standardise the faith. They always used religion to control people, a uniform Christianity was perfect for them.
The other issue with Islam is that it never had a central base like Christianity did in the Roman Empire. So there is no central creed and no central authority figure like the Pope to dictate what is within or without of the dogma. It seems anyone politic enough and able to read the Koran can lift themselves up by preaching not unlike modern protestantisms latest invention "evangelical" in the US.
The wild differences between almost every Iman is pretty much why Rome adopted Christianity and then had the first Council of Nicea to rationalise and standardise the faith. They always used religion to control people, a uniform Christianity was perfect for them.
1
We condemn Islamic fundamentalists and routinely the Taliban, but many of those we overlook differ only in degrees of how far they will go. Our own religious fundamentalists really need to look in the mirror, oftentimes, and see how little difference there was between the current Taliban and some of Christianities past history. We also believe in the first amendment or at least pay homage to it. Many do not see it the way we do. That does not give them any credence in beliefs. Anyone who uses religion as an excuse to kill others is not using religion as anything other than a tool to do what they want to do in the first place. Basically losers who want to think they matter.
3
It is not just Islam that breeds this kind of behavior. Christianity did a pretty good job by sending 12 crusades to Jerusalem. Many religious apologists will argue that these were economically motivated. It might be true for those who stayed home in Europe, but you do not charge and scale the walls for economics!
Those who called for the crusades made no bones about that is was a religious crusade to fill the army's ranks. No one will join in potential death and maiming for economics, but instill a strong belief in a mythological story, and you will get those willing to die for the belief.
In religion, belief overtakes rational discourse. You cannot debate or argue with a religious person because at the end of the day it all comes down to a belief system based on mythology. Basically, the argument ends with saying that I believe that there is a God, gods, or whatever, so don't confuse me with facts.
I am sure that the religious apologists will now crawl out of the woodwork and begin pointing out how much "good" religion does. Tell that to the victims in Paris, in Syria, in Iraq, and soon in Afghanistan. Too bad that all that "good" requires so much blood spilling.
Those who called for the crusades made no bones about that is was a religious crusade to fill the army's ranks. No one will join in potential death and maiming for economics, but instill a strong belief in a mythological story, and you will get those willing to die for the belief.
In religion, belief overtakes rational discourse. You cannot debate or argue with a religious person because at the end of the day it all comes down to a belief system based on mythology. Basically, the argument ends with saying that I believe that there is a God, gods, or whatever, so don't confuse me with facts.
I am sure that the religious apologists will now crawl out of the woodwork and begin pointing out how much "good" religion does. Tell that to the victims in Paris, in Syria, in Iraq, and soon in Afghanistan. Too bad that all that "good" requires so much blood spilling.
1
Sure, violence is committed everywhere and by everyone, but the key difference with much of the Muslim violence we're witnessing around the world is that they are inflicted on innocent civilians in the name of Islam. I don't know of a lot of Christians, Jews, Buddhists attacking innocent civilians in the name of their religion.
9
"Over a 15-year period ending in 2008, Islamist militants were responsible for 60 percent of high-casualty terrorist bombings, his study found"
If only 28% of the world's population is Muslim, how can you argue that Islam isn't more violent? Whatever the cause, Islamist militants are responsible for a disproportionate amount of bombings compared to their population in the world.
If only 28% of the world's population is Muslim, how can you argue that Islam isn't more violent? Whatever the cause, Islamist militants are responsible for a disproportionate amount of bombings compared to their population in the world.
7
Christianity went through very dark periods like the Crusades and the Inquisition where it had to learn to accept other religions. The Muslim faith is going through this now. At this time young Muslims are taught intolerance across the Middle East most notably in Saudi Arabia where an extremely visceral teaching, Wahabi is the norm.
1
Of course they should question their religion. Everyone should. All the time. Its called re-affirmation. If no one ever questioned their current existing religion then no one would have every paid any attention to Jesus – or Muhammad six hundred years later – we'd all still be worshiping trees.
2
How do the explanations below (from the article) explain French citizens, raised in France, killing cartoonists over a depiction of Muhammad?
-----
Others, though, insist that the sources of the violence are alienation and resentment, not theology. They argue that the authoritarian rulers of Arab states — who have tried for decades to control Muslim teaching and the application of Islamic law — have set off a violent backlash expressed in religious ideas and language.
“Some people who feel crushed or ignored will go toward extremism, and they use religion because that is what they have at hand,” said Said Ferjani.
“The Arab states have not delivered what they are supposed to deliver and it can only lead to a deep sense of resentment and frustration, or to revolution,” [Khaled Fahmy] said. “It is the nonviolence that needs to be explained, not the violence.”
-----
Others, though, insist that the sources of the violence are alienation and resentment, not theology. They argue that the authoritarian rulers of Arab states — who have tried for decades to control Muslim teaching and the application of Islamic law — have set off a violent backlash expressed in religious ideas and language.
“Some people who feel crushed or ignored will go toward extremism, and they use religion because that is what they have at hand,” said Said Ferjani.
“The Arab states have not delivered what they are supposed to deliver and it can only lead to a deep sense of resentment and frustration, or to revolution,” [Khaled Fahmy] said. “It is the nonviolence that needs to be explained, not the violence.”
1
Emad Shahin must have a different interpretation of the Catholic Church's "just war" teachings. I'm not defending the Church, although I'm a Catholic myself. If I'm not mistaken, Christians were told to love peace and not to promote violence. They should be slow to resort to the use of arms. But they must not be afraid to do so if necessary. Evil must not be allowed to remain unchecked.
Of course some of these teachings had been ignored, just like the Islamist extremists who resort to violence, while abusing Islam.
The Catholic Church has seen reforms and adapted to changes. Indeed Islam could need a "religious reform" and abandon certain customs that are no longer compatible with modernity.
Of course some of these teachings had been ignored, just like the Islamist extremists who resort to violence, while abusing Islam.
The Catholic Church has seen reforms and adapted to changes. Indeed Islam could need a "religious reform" and abandon certain customs that are no longer compatible with modernity.
2
Here is the link to the story on NPR about the blogger who was sentenced to 1,000 lashes for blogging about religion. This was in Saudi Arabia.
http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2015/01/09/376123595/saudi-blogger-r...
http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2015/01/09/376123595/saudi-blogger-r...
6
This manipulation to avoid self-criticism orchestrated by authoritarian elites via blaming the European "Colonialists" in many of the failed states in the Old World, and the American 'gringos' in the Americas is precisely why 2/3's of the world's people still live in medieval hells on earth.The press in Mexico and much of Latin America is censored via routine assassination and the US media is very "sensitive" to Hispanic pride plays down the endemic nature of most violence south of our border. What this all results in is that when lack of social progress is combined with ruthless fundamentalist religious indoctrination these peoples' only escape is death in the fantasy hope of going to some paradise in the clouds. The 'you can't blame the alleged victims', taboo against criticizing anyone who is not white for murder and genocide, because to do so is racism excuse-mentality has to be abandoned by our media and alleged intellectual class or most of the people on earth will continue to live in hells for centuries to come. And this is so obviously stupid and self defeating that serious thinkers should wonder it our media, business and political elites suppress needed reform causing criticism via the curious mechanism of blaming "us", in order to maintain an infinite pool of desperate poverty stricken humans that they can use as outsourced to industrial slaves overseas & as a endless flood of immigrants that they can use as slave labor and wage killing competition at home.
3
I saw on NPR's website that a blogger in Saudi Arabia was sentenced to 1,000 lashes and ten years in prison for writing a blog that discusses Islam. He gets fifty lashes a week for twenty weeks. He had his first fifty lashes today.
How can we think this isn't a violent religion when someone is cruelly tortured with 1,000 lashes and imprisonment for blogging about religion? This turns my stomach.
How can we think this isn't a violent religion when someone is cruelly tortured with 1,000 lashes and imprisonment for blogging about religion? This turns my stomach.
16
Yes, but who keeps the Saudi despotic regime in power- hint it is called US Central Command.
3
The bigger question is, 'Why are we allowing this violence-prone group to travel within and immigrate to the U.S.?'
14
Even as a non-church goer -- I find comparing this phrase to Islam to be intellectually disingenuous: “I come not to bring peace, but a sword"
The literal founder of Christianity, Jesus, was a pacifist with pacifist followers and may have claimed to have a sword. And only much later did the domineering, violent Christians take over for many centuries.
The historically documented founder of Islam, Muhammad, was a merchant who had a real army of followers armed with swords, and waged war -- and claimed to be pacifist.
The literal founder of Christianity, Jesus, was a pacifist with pacifist followers and may have claimed to have a sword. And only much later did the domineering, violent Christians take over for many centuries.
The historically documented founder of Islam, Muhammad, was a merchant who had a real army of followers armed with swords, and waged war -- and claimed to be pacifist.
12
We have no real corroborating tracts about what Jesus really said. We have only the four Gospels and there are inconsistencies between these, so much of the story must be suspect, we should remain skeptical about the character of Jesus. Keep in mind that the New Testament was not written down until some 100 years after Jesus died. By that time Christianity was beginning to compete with Roman culture which was based very much on power and the sword. Christianity was framed much, much later by people/leaders who were interested in rising to power within the Roman state. Part of this framing was more than likely colored to fit the Roman hierarchy. Certainly, Constantine purged many of the writings of early Christians, keeping those that fit his view of how Christianity should proceed.
3
Christianity went through a similar period of violent extremism. Islam will work through this within a few decades.
2
At what price to non-Muslims?
4
Unless they manage to set off a few nukes before then. Then it will be settled much more quickly.
4
" It is the nonviolence that needs to be explained, not the violence"
Tell that to the victims..................
Tell that to the victims..................
10
Alienation, resentment, frustration are emotions many feel. This does not serve as an excuse for murder. As long as murderous acts are excused for these reasons, there will never be progress against extreme terrorism. The Imams and practitioners who believe their religion is a peaceful religion have an obligation to stop making excuses for these terrorists and to disavow them.
14
In Sweden some Islamic leaders has identified the need of the Muslim civic society to demonstrate an outrage far surpassing the initial outrage of the cartoons themselves (by twitter, facebook, crowds....) I have quite a number of Muslim friends and they all agree that this deed is performed by maniacs. Some of them have themselves been victimized by Al Qaeda in Iraq. Unfortunately a lot of people seem scared, thinking twice about exposing themselves. They choose to "lay low", not upsetting westerners in any way. ...but I think it's a good insight: every single photo of supporters for the reporters of the Charlie with an entirely western crowd will fuel the right wing extremists, "proving" that only westerners care for westerners. ...which of course is absurd. Still - to the potential Le Pen (etc.) voters it simply confirms the big divide.
To turn this tide it's not enough that moderate westerners maintain an open society, argue inclusiveness and programs to address the social problems. To avoid a polarization where we see Le Pen as president with control of nuclear weapons and Britain withdrawing from the EU both sides has to act - the Muslim society has to reach out, demonstrate loyalty with the West among those who choose to live there. Because even if it saddens me to say, that loyalty is perceived as unclear at best by a growing number of people. And that is dangerous far beyond any single terror attack. The history of Europe is proof of that.
To turn this tide it's not enough that moderate westerners maintain an open society, argue inclusiveness and programs to address the social problems. To avoid a polarization where we see Le Pen as president with control of nuclear weapons and Britain withdrawing from the EU both sides has to act - the Muslim society has to reach out, demonstrate loyalty with the West among those who choose to live there. Because even if it saddens me to say, that loyalty is perceived as unclear at best by a growing number of people. And that is dangerous far beyond any single terror attack. The history of Europe is proof of that.
5
"The majority of scholars and the faithful say Islam is no more inherently violent than other religions."
They could, of course, be wrong. I think it might not be going too far out on a limb to suggest that the teachings of Muhammed were a tad more violent than those of Jesus or the Buddha.
They could, of course, be wrong. I think it might not be going too far out on a limb to suggest that the teachings of Muhammed were a tad more violent than those of Jesus or the Buddha.
19
Thank you! I'll go a step further. Any group, religious or otherwise, that produces members who behave like murderous maniacs must take a long hard look at what they're pontificating.
5
Although not a fan of George W, one quote of his struck me as insightful,” Islamic extremists have hijacked the Islamic religion”. In France we have seen extremists under the guise of Islam undertake vengeful acts upon those who have slandered the Islamic faith by exercising the uncompromising precept of free speech. Time and again these extremists have taken center stage and have hijacked the air waves with their barbaric acts and given credence to their brand of Islam. It is not enough that westerners state that they do not speak or represent the Islamic community at large. The Islamic world community must be vocal and vociferously condemn those who act barbarically on the behalf of the Islamic faith. If silence prevails from the Islamic world; it may be perceived, thru western eyes, as condoning these acts of barbarity and acceptance of an extremist view of Islam. We in the western world can curb offensive speech in light that it may incite retaliation by extremists, walking on egg shells monitoring our thoughts and actions in hopes that we might not offend; but then we would be altering and curbing the uncompromising precept of free speech. Public safety vs. free speech is what the fundamentalists want the western world to decide on!
2
The major problem in these repeated outrages committed by Islamists is not that they are committed by Islamists. It is that they committed in the name of Islam.
It far from coincidental that the perpetrators of these outrages find sufficient justification in Islamic teaching to justify their actions.
Or that they are encouraged in their actions by Imams in the local mosques -- and by the wealthy Salafis who finance Islamic terrorist groups and individuals.
Again, it is all done in the name of Islam. And that is the problem that Muslims need to confront if Islam is not to be seen as antithetical to the morality and values that most religions share.
It far from coincidental that the perpetrators of these outrages find sufficient justification in Islamic teaching to justify their actions.
Or that they are encouraged in their actions by Imams in the local mosques -- and by the wealthy Salafis who finance Islamic terrorist groups and individuals.
Again, it is all done in the name of Islam. And that is the problem that Muslims need to confront if Islam is not to be seen as antithetical to the morality and values that most religions share.
9
"But then he warned that, under Egypt’s religion-infused legal system, the public espousal of atheism might land his opponents in jail." Well, there's part of the problem in that country. Being an atheist, I should avoid it, I suppose; and all others similar.
The core global problem is the entrenched male dominance in all countries with Islam as its major or 'state' religion. Women in those states are still excluded from most that we hold dear in liberal democracy.
Those Islamic scholars should not try to blame the West for Islam's own long-held societal and gender based inadequacies in a modern world.
The core global problem is the entrenched male dominance in all countries with Islam as its major or 'state' religion. Women in those states are still excluded from most that we hold dear in liberal democracy.
Those Islamic scholars should not try to blame the West for Islam's own long-held societal and gender based inadequacies in a modern world.
9
The claim that Islam is a religion that espouses non-violence and tolerance is hard to believe when just today the Associated Press is reporting that Raif Badawi, a Saudi blogger, received the first 50 of a thousand lashes with his hands and feet tied after being convicted of insulting Islam. This was done in a public square and watched by hundreds of people. It reminds one of the Roman custom of feeding Christians to lions in coliseums. The difference maker between the ancient religions is that Europe had a renaissance, the Middle East is still waiting for theirs.
24
Every religion serves two purposes, one is to support a community of believers and the other is to promote a believer's oneness with God. The pressures exerted by the first tend to make believers consider all non-believers as implicit threats to the long term success of their communities, while the second pressures them to focus upon achieving spiritual enlightenment in seeking to understand truths that relate to God and to their religious doctrines. The fanatics who pursue effecting a universal community of mankind as believers by intimidation and violence are not learning anything about the spiritual dimensions of their faith and actually are ignorant of it's existence. People who seek oneness with God pretty much all understand that there are other ways to achieve that end besides their own beliefs and they tend to be more tolerant of others' beliefs.
What we see with Al Qaeda and the Islamic state is a toxic mix of religious doctrines and political objectives which reduce the participants ability to respect the lives of others and to treat others as they would be treated. They resemble the totalitarian movements that came to power after WWI, because fundamentally, they have the same way of thinking, and it's not got anything to do with achieving spiritual understanding.
What we see with Al Qaeda and the Islamic state is a toxic mix of religious doctrines and political objectives which reduce the participants ability to respect the lives of others and to treat others as they would be treated. They resemble the totalitarian movements that came to power after WWI, because fundamentally, they have the same way of thinking, and it's not got anything to do with achieving spiritual understanding.
6
I have been raised a muslim (albeit a very liberal one), and I will not fan the false narrative that the religion itself does not have inherent problems that lead to these atrocities.
A religion is nothing more than its people and the articles of faith that bind them. Well the articles of the Islamic faith call for Sharia. And while the vast majority of muslims would never want Sharia control of their lives and would certainly never harm a single person in its name - so long as people don't demand an end to the 7th century nonsense that is Sharia, these problems will persist.
In short, the religion needs a serious reformation. The faith people bind themselves to needs to be rid of the Medieval garbage that leads to ISIS.
And unless that reformation occurs, then all of the good that comes out of this organized religion (and there is much good in it) will be perverted, twisted and lost to the noise and absurdity that is Sharia.
The madness has to end.
A religion is nothing more than its people and the articles of faith that bind them. Well the articles of the Islamic faith call for Sharia. And while the vast majority of muslims would never want Sharia control of their lives and would certainly never harm a single person in its name - so long as people don't demand an end to the 7th century nonsense that is Sharia, these problems will persist.
In short, the religion needs a serious reformation. The faith people bind themselves to needs to be rid of the Medieval garbage that leads to ISIS.
And unless that reformation occurs, then all of the good that comes out of this organized religion (and there is much good in it) will be perverted, twisted and lost to the noise and absurdity that is Sharia.
The madness has to end.
179
Thank you. So good to hear such wise thoughts from somoeone who can;t be acused of being an uninformed outsider.
7
Agreed, well said. There seems to be an idea that shariah (religious law) is fixed in stone from the 6th century CE, but it is actually an organic ever-evolving set of rules or laws for a growing and changing society. Throughout Islamic history, it has always changed based on circumstances and interpretation. And it is definitely due for a new interpretation. All laws that are misogynistic, homophobic, or that denigrate people of different beliefs must be tossed out. The Quran clearly states: "Let there be no compulsion [in acceptance] of religion" and that God "created mankind into different nations and tribes so that they may know and befriend one another. Verily, the most cherished of you in God's sight is the greatest of you in love and kindness."
3
There should be no questions from within the Islamic community on the use of violence and terrorism. You can argue why people are frustrated. You cannot argue about the legitimacy of tactics. The reputation of Islam is a function not of the behavior of the minority, it is the result of the majority's tacit endorsement of the their behavior.
14
A religion is not just a set of texts but the living beliefs and practices of its adherents. Islam today includes a substantial minority of believers who countenance, if they don’t actually carry out, a degree of violence in the application of their convictions that is currently unique.
7
The flaw in Islamic thinking is that God needs their help in correcting whom they term heretics. Muslim see Jew, Christian, Buddhist, Hindus, Atheists, and other Muslim sects as infidels to be punished by them as if God can't handle it. If God has a problem with some issue, action, or behavior, think He can take care of it.
When in Cambodia, I could not understand why the people didn't want revenge against the Khmer Rough for killing a million of their people. But their Buddhist belief was that the killers would have bad Karma, they would be punished in the end.
I've read the Koran, not impressed.
It's for the Islamic people to change their thinking, then the radicals within will change.
The article quotes the Gospel of Matthew, maybe about 10% of the passage
leaving out most of the message.
Sorry, Jesus wouldn't join the NRA, but Mohammed would.
When in Cambodia, I could not understand why the people didn't want revenge against the Khmer Rough for killing a million of their people. But their Buddhist belief was that the killers would have bad Karma, they would be punished in the end.
I've read the Koran, not impressed.
It's for the Islamic people to change their thinking, then the radicals within will change.
The article quotes the Gospel of Matthew, maybe about 10% of the passage
leaving out most of the message.
Sorry, Jesus wouldn't join the NRA, but Mohammed would.
12
I think one of the big differences with Christianity is that, although there are of course those horrific passages in the Old Testament, it's really, really hard to get around the fact that Jesus himself was such a person of extreme, radical peace and inclusion. And if Christianity starts with Jesus (as it obviously should), then it's the Christian that thinks "holy wars" are OK that is the one with the explaining to do, since they are going against Jesus himself in that respect.
7
I'm with Bill Maher.
15
To in any way equate the many hateful, violence spawning passages in the Quran, which are now, finally and rightly being questioned more generally, with the New Testament’s Book of Revelation, the passage, “I bring you not peace but a sword of division,” and with Just War Theory is blatant ignorance regarding this theory and the Christian texts. Although there are troubling passages in the Old Testament and Torah, this article typically takes great pain to avoid the introspection that is clearly so necessary for Muslim adherents and scholars. The article acts to perpetuate the fallacy of indifferentism related to terroristic proclivities and religious intolerance. Sharia law as practiced in countries like Saudi Arabia, Iran, and the UAE, mandates hudud punishments like stoning, flogging, hand dismemberments, etc., for such “crimes” as apostasy, pre-marital sex, homosexuality and drunkenness. Sharia law does not seemingly spawn from extremism. It spawns directly from basic tenants of the Muslim faith and is followed by mainstream Muslim populations in major countries across the globe. The Muslim faith seems to give natural rise to sharia law. Most westerners believe sharia law is extremist fundamentalism. Our good friends in Saudi Arabia would sharply, and even violently, disagree. Islam needs to be reformed, and these obtuse and blatantly ignorant articles will thwart this reformation process by skirting the main issues.
12
We have to stop this silly, guilt ridden, "blame us" attitude for creating these fanatics. There are lots of religions(as well as non-believers) and nations that feel "offended", oppressed, or marginalized yet do not go about killing cartoonists, rioting by the millions, bombing Danish embassies, passing blasphemy laws, jailing critics of their religion, issuing fatwas against writers such as Salman Rushdie and Ayaan Hirshi Ali, kidnapping and beheading apostates such as what is occurring now.
Christians did not blow up the Met when they displayed "Piss Christ"; Middle Eastern Christians do not slaughter (which would be better understood than these shooters) Muslims after they are crucified by ISIS while watching their churches burned. Mormons don't burn down Broadway because of the 'Book of Mormon" play. Catholics didn't kill Martin Scorsese after "The Last temptation of Christ". We have no problem mocking Christians, calling cops "racist", demonizing conservatives or obsessing with "white privilege". But Muslims either need to be understood or justified with their fanaticism. The West needs to stop apologizing for this Islamist totalitarianism, which exempts itself from any ridicule on the threat of death. Fanatics will use any excuse of victimization to commit violence. We need to call them on it.
Christians did not blow up the Met when they displayed "Piss Christ"; Middle Eastern Christians do not slaughter (which would be better understood than these shooters) Muslims after they are crucified by ISIS while watching their churches burned. Mormons don't burn down Broadway because of the 'Book of Mormon" play. Catholics didn't kill Martin Scorsese after "The Last temptation of Christ". We have no problem mocking Christians, calling cops "racist", demonizing conservatives or obsessing with "white privilege". But Muslims either need to be understood or justified with their fanaticism. The West needs to stop apologizing for this Islamist totalitarianism, which exempts itself from any ridicule on the threat of death. Fanatics will use any excuse of victimization to commit violence. We need to call them on it.
25
A Christian group did, in fact, firebomb a Paris cinema to protest Scorsese's film in 1988. Buddhists have been killing Muslims in Myanmar for some time now. How many Palestinians have been killed by Israel? Perhaps part of the frustration among some Muslims is that other groups are not called upon to give this kind of explicit condemnation. Did Catholics stage demonstrations to protest the Church's pedophilia? Did we demand that they en masse repudiate this? Have the French staged mass demonstrations to apologize for their horrific colonial practices in Algeria and Vietnam?
If I were Muslim, I might feel aggrieved that often statements about Israel, Jews, the Holocaust are considered hate speech (in fact, the editor of Charlie Hedbo fired one of his journalists for making fun of Sarkozy's son after some complained of anti-Semitism - the journalist sued the magazine and won) while it is perfectly ok to ridicule Islam. I don't think the Muslims in France necessarily feel they are living on an equal playing field here. Many of them came from Algeria and continue to be second class citizens in France. I am not sure what the solution is. But I do think that the double standard is beyond troubling. This event has precipitated an outpouring of hate against Muslims that is truly painful to witness, especially as much of it is completely divorced from political realities.
If I were Muslim, I might feel aggrieved that often statements about Israel, Jews, the Holocaust are considered hate speech (in fact, the editor of Charlie Hedbo fired one of his journalists for making fun of Sarkozy's son after some complained of anti-Semitism - the journalist sued the magazine and won) while it is perfectly ok to ridicule Islam. I don't think the Muslims in France necessarily feel they are living on an equal playing field here. Many of them came from Algeria and continue to be second class citizens in France. I am not sure what the solution is. But I do think that the double standard is beyond troubling. This event has precipitated an outpouring of hate against Muslims that is truly painful to witness, especially as much of it is completely divorced from political realities.
1
As a human being and Muslim, I am continually horrified by the atrocities that these fanatic cold-hearted jihadis perpetrate in the name of their warped understanding of justice and of Islam. To me and millions of other Muslims around the world, the teaching is clear: "If you kill any person, it is as if you have killed all of mankind; and if you save one life, it is as if you have saved the life of all mankind." The most important names of God in the Quran are al-Rahman and al-Raheem, the Most Compassionate, the Most Merciful. In this life, our thoughts, our understanding of holy texts, our actions, our speech - they must all be based on love, compassion, and mercy. The fanatics have always ruined the message of love and true justice (a justice without aggression). For those of us who grew up with an understanding and practice of Islam based on love and kindness, our hearts break every time a fanatic acts out of hate and vengeance in our name.
62
Faith and delusion are inextricably bound; maybe they’re a unity. If one man says that God made him kill his neighbor, and another that the devil made him kill his brother, and another that Harvey the six-foot three-and-a-half-inch rabbit made him do it – the only essential difference is consensus. The less consensus, the more we perceive a cult, and a delusion. There is a kind of psychological tapering here: Faith in God, for many, reduces to faith in a book, which reduces to faith in an attractive biblical passage or in an influential friend’s or leader's opinion about that passage. At the tapered point sits the motive for this faith: Feeling. Pain or love.
If we are to have a society in which we can all live together in peace, it is self evident that we cannot have some members of society who decide they are superior to all others and have the right to kill and maim their fellow members. But we cannot deal with the problem of these self-anointed superior members by shadow boxing with the generality of terrorism. We need to openly talk together about our problems and to iron out cultural and other differences. We have to all agree that basic religion requires us to try to help each other as brothers and sisters, and all other religious dogma is tolerable only insofar as it is a positive and helpful aid to the society. Criminal conduct must be treated as criminal and not allowed to be carried out by the offending criminals under their self-serving guise of acting religiously as agents of the Almighty.
We are doomed as a human race if we allow ourselves to loose our humbleness and delude ourselves that we are somehow the only chosen wards of the Almighty who have the right and duty to wipe out everyone who doesn't agree with our own self-assumed quality of divinity. Criminality is criminality no matter the color of the brush with which it is painted.
We are doomed as a human race if we allow ourselves to loose our humbleness and delude ourselves that we are somehow the only chosen wards of the Almighty who have the right and duty to wipe out everyone who doesn't agree with our own self-assumed quality of divinity. Criminality is criminality no matter the color of the brush with which it is painted.
3
I give France thirty to forty years, and the place is done. To be followed closely by the U.K. and then Denmark. These countries have large Muslim populations which are either scared or supportive of the terrorism that engulfs nations in which they settle in large numbers. It has happened in Lebanon, Russia, the Philippines, and Malaysia. Everywhere they reach about ten to twenty percent the terrorism begins. Then when they become a majority the murders and deportations commence. And the press sugar coats these realities.
18
To some extent, Middle Easterners and North Africans are acting out resentments of real and perceived discrimination and exploitation at the hands of Europeans and Americans. Muslim countries contributed to their own weakness by, among other things, delaying the introduction of modern technologies like printing, the telegraph and railroads and by developing decadent and corrupt monarchies like the Ottomans in the 19th century. Europeans and Americans exploited this weakness economically and socially in ways that continue into the 21st century.
2
Actually every Islamic land also made sure it had half the economic power of any modern nation by keeping women as second-class citizens, unable to hold most jobs, or any jobs in some nations. When you won't use half your population, your economy, science, social progress, and everything else, suffers.
5
Everyone is talking about Islamic fundamentalism. But nobody is talking about how the West nurtures Islamists to carry out their agenda in Libya to oust Qaddafi, in Afghanistan to oust Russia, in Syria to oust Bashar-Al Assad and so on. Millions are dead in operations by the west. Some lunatics among Muslims will certainly resort to violence. The need is to bring political stability to the region, Middle East, being so close to Europe. While the neighbor's (Middle East) house is in flame, you can't dismiss the possibility of a spark at your door.
3
Islam is ripe for reformation. It needs a Martin Luther figure to rise up from within the ranks to identify and challenge corrupt interpretations of the Koran and nail them onto the doors of every mosque.
5
The bigger question for me is whether or not Islam can somehow bring itself into sync with the scientific discoveries of the modern world. These tend to call into serious question the basic tenets of every religious faith... something Christianity has been awkwardly grappling with since the days of Galileo. It's gotta be tough to rapidly reconcile a religious belief system that in many ways remains a phenomenon of another millennium.
3
Across he board, fundamentalism makes people less intelligent, and should never be respected as a world view. I, for one, will never "submit" to a forced ideology, be it spouted by imams, televangelists, door to door missionaries, or champions of Ayn Rand. Several poxes on them all.
6
Break lose of the chains of intimidation and death--that's my wish for our brothers and sisters of Islam.
For decades Islamist terrorists have been a greater threat to Muslims than to Christians, Hindus or Humanists. Jihadists kill more Muslims than non-Muslims. Not to minimize the threat Jihadists present to non-Muslims, but it's true--Muslims suffer the brunt of these demented terrorists.
Some day Muslims will stand up to the tormentors in their midst.
For decades Islamist terrorists have been a greater threat to Muslims than to Christians, Hindus or Humanists. Jihadists kill more Muslims than non-Muslims. Not to minimize the threat Jihadists present to non-Muslims, but it's true--Muslims suffer the brunt of these demented terrorists.
Some day Muslims will stand up to the tormentors in their midst.
2
Any religion, indeed any belief, can be distorted and used to justify pernicious ends, including the most extreme violence (e.g., the Crusades, Inquisition, Holocaust, Rwandan, Cambodian, Bosnian, Congolese, Sudanese genocides, and on and on.). The larger issue is the acceptance of pluralism on one hand vs fundamentalism and aggressive evangelism on the other.
In democratic societies we struggle with but accept multiculturalism. We agree you can believe whatever you like, but you cannot force others to subscribe to your beliefs. We make a clear demarcation between religion and government and allow for the evolution of social consensus through law.
I don't think Islam is inherently violent, but fundamentalist versions of anything are inherently authoritarian. Religion cannot be separated from all other aspects of society including law and government. Any beliefs outside of those officially sanctioned are blasphemous and must be punished or eradicated. Culture is expected to remain rigidly dependent on traditions, and the imposition of these traditions on others is a persistent goal.
Without a free press, free speech, independent courts, and universal access to quality secular schools, it is hard to imagine the kind of reasoned debate, public education, and constant vigilant questioning necessary to prevent violent manifestations of any ideology.
In democratic societies we struggle with but accept multiculturalism. We agree you can believe whatever you like, but you cannot force others to subscribe to your beliefs. We make a clear demarcation between religion and government and allow for the evolution of social consensus through law.
I don't think Islam is inherently violent, but fundamentalist versions of anything are inherently authoritarian. Religion cannot be separated from all other aspects of society including law and government. Any beliefs outside of those officially sanctioned are blasphemous and must be punished or eradicated. Culture is expected to remain rigidly dependent on traditions, and the imposition of these traditions on others is a persistent goal.
Without a free press, free speech, independent courts, and universal access to quality secular schools, it is hard to imagine the kind of reasoned debate, public education, and constant vigilant questioning necessary to prevent violent manifestations of any ideology.
51
Absolutely the best analysis of the whole lot. Press, speech, courts and school, worked reasonably well in the West.
1
"very little empirical evidence that Islam is violent". The only explanation for this comment is that he must live in an Islamic society that is even more repressive than North Korea. They must have banned every newspaper, tv and internet site. If this gentleman really believes what he says, then he has absolutely no awareness of what has gone on in the world in the last 25 plus years. Can he really have no knowledge of all the embassy bombings, subway and train bombings in Europe, 9/11, all those killed by Al Qaeda, ISIS, the Taliban, the USS Cole, what happened in Canada two months ago or any of the dozens of other violent events brought to you courtesy of Islam? It seems to me that this must be part of the problem facing Islam today, if he earnestly believes what he says he has his head so firmly and deeply planted in the sand as to be completely disassociated from reality. How does one educate someone like him, because showing him a history book, newspaper, tv broadcast or the internet apparently hasn't helped. I fear that the only solution may be to let this vile, violent compulsion that a voluminous subgroup of Islamists have for killing to work its way out of the religion, which could take generations.
10
Its time that the Muslim world confronted those beliefs within its religion and culture which inspire the murderous fanatics within its ranks - and expunged them.
13
Belief in any sort of "God' is a specie of dementia: I an so important that there's this all-powerful entity looking after me and rewarding me is, at the same time, megalomania and paranoia.
6
The question that I have that wasn't answered in this piece, nor anywhere else I can find, is what can we, the civilized world, do to end the rash of terrorism we've been experiencing?
2
Strange indeed, that an ideology that requires to kill everyone and everybody who is either in violation, in the way or simply "not one of us" deems itself to be a religion of peace.
There are some 2000 calls for killings in the Quran alone, not counting the Hadiths and the Sharia laws.
The entire ideology of Islam is targeted towards total control of all people's lives around the globe.
It is a totalitarian approach at it's best.
And the infidels still wonder about the intention of Islam?
Just read the Quran and stop applying Western thought models and values to an ideology that has an entirely different set of rules and beliefs and one that even considers the Western approach of trying to understand why Muslims are killing non-muslims by the thousands as a sign of weakness.
Accept the fact that this ideology is no different from fascism and stop attempting to approach the issues in the same wrong way that Chamberlain attempted in 1938.
Stop all appeasement politics and accept that there is a war going on.
There are some 2000 calls for killings in the Quran alone, not counting the Hadiths and the Sharia laws.
The entire ideology of Islam is targeted towards total control of all people's lives around the globe.
It is a totalitarian approach at it's best.
And the infidels still wonder about the intention of Islam?
Just read the Quran and stop applying Western thought models and values to an ideology that has an entirely different set of rules and beliefs and one that even considers the Western approach of trying to understand why Muslims are killing non-muslims by the thousands as a sign of weakness.
Accept the fact that this ideology is no different from fascism and stop attempting to approach the issues in the same wrong way that Chamberlain attempted in 1938.
Stop all appeasement politics and accept that there is a war going on.
26
With the collapse of Communist universalism and, in the Muslim world, the panacea of Nasser's pan-Arabism, revanchist forces have re-emerged with renewed vigor. Right now, Islamism is the best known of these.
The values of "liberty, equality, fraternity" and the concepts of rational, free discourse advanced by the Enlightenment are beginning to have a funereal odor, both internationally and domestically. Look no further than home: religion is tipping the scales, moneyed interests are controlling the US and inequality is gross and pervasive.
To deny the role of religion in this instance is obtuse. Islamism is proffered as the newest panacea and worse, it provides cover for all the most grotesque intolerance lurking just beneath the veneer of civilization. As Alexis-Charles-Henri Clérel de Tocqueville wrote in 1840, "The main business of religions is to purify, control, and restrain that excessive and exclusive taste for well-being which men acquire in times of equality." (Democracy in America)
The values of "liberty, equality, fraternity" and the concepts of rational, free discourse advanced by the Enlightenment are beginning to have a funereal odor, both internationally and domestically. Look no further than home: religion is tipping the scales, moneyed interests are controlling the US and inequality is gross and pervasive.
To deny the role of religion in this instance is obtuse. Islamism is proffered as the newest panacea and worse, it provides cover for all the most grotesque intolerance lurking just beneath the veneer of civilization. As Alexis-Charles-Henri Clérel de Tocqueville wrote in 1840, "The main business of religions is to purify, control, and restrain that excessive and exclusive taste for well-being which men acquire in times of equality." (Democracy in America)
4
There's more to this Muslim extremism problem: the absence of women in the society. They are unheard. They are unseen, hiding behind veils. They have no influence on the men and on their country. Any environment that is completely male-centric, be it Muslim communities, college fraternities, or even the army, often becomes a hotbed of violence because of the overload of testosterone - and, quite possibly, sexual frustration. These women must be liberated! They must become an equal part of their society, to balance out all that male aggression that is running rampant. And this may be hopelessly naïve on my part, but maybe, just maybe, if more of these young men were in healthy relationships with women (platonic and romantic), they'd be too busy and too content to think of terrorism in the first place.
13
Women have to fight for their rights just like thy did in our country and many European contrives. Like they fought for their right to vote, equal opportunity, inheritance laws etc etc. It is up to the women to fight for their rights, Many may die in that cause but that is the only way to free women of the world from male, government, and religious dominance.
1
"found that murder rates were substantially lower in Muslim-majority countries and instances of political violence were no more frequent."
There are at least 3 things wrong with this statement:
1) more of these countries have dictators/autocrats in power, and "crime" is always lower in such societies, e.g., Franco's Spain had less "crime" but that was the byproduct of a de facto police state for political reasons (guardia civil on every corner in the early 1970s).
2) the statistics can't be trusted because they depend on reporting and on government decisions regarding what constitutes a crime, e.g., Sadam Hussein's son raping a man's wife and/or killing her or the husband likely does not get reported as a crime; similarly, N. Korea has no "crime".
3) even if these statistics could be compared, the quote above ignores the central tenet of this article, that much of muslim violence is accompanied by religious exhortations whereas rarely do similar religious exhortations accompany crime perpetrated by non-muslims; religion may be used as an identifier with respect to violent action, e.g., in Ireland, but there is no pretense that their hatred and violence has anything to do with God.
I do agree that the major driver is resentment and hatred, reactions to colonialism and its aftermath, with Islam as the easy unifying visceral factor.
There are at least 3 things wrong with this statement:
1) more of these countries have dictators/autocrats in power, and "crime" is always lower in such societies, e.g., Franco's Spain had less "crime" but that was the byproduct of a de facto police state for political reasons (guardia civil on every corner in the early 1970s).
2) the statistics can't be trusted because they depend on reporting and on government decisions regarding what constitutes a crime, e.g., Sadam Hussein's son raping a man's wife and/or killing her or the husband likely does not get reported as a crime; similarly, N. Korea has no "crime".
3) even if these statistics could be compared, the quote above ignores the central tenet of this article, that much of muslim violence is accompanied by religious exhortations whereas rarely do similar religious exhortations accompany crime perpetrated by non-muslims; religion may be used as an identifier with respect to violent action, e.g., in Ireland, but there is no pretense that their hatred and violence has anything to do with God.
I do agree that the major driver is resentment and hatred, reactions to colonialism and its aftermath, with Islam as the easy unifying visceral factor.
5
It is very difficult to believe that anyone would be mystified about the reasons that criminals of all stripes pretend that their murderous actions are commanded by their "gods."
Isn't that the usual Big Lie of villains in all times and places?
Of course their true reasons are that they all want to be everyone else's "glorious Leader."
Nobody in France could possibly have forgotten the crimes of Adolph Hitler, et al, regardless of how much time has passed since then!
Isn't that the usual Big Lie of villains in all times and places?
Of course their true reasons are that they all want to be everyone else's "glorious Leader."
Nobody in France could possibly have forgotten the crimes of Adolph Hitler, et al, regardless of how much time has passed since then!
4
In this era of non state actors committing violence to further their causes, I think it's important to remember the legacy of Gavirlo Princip, the anarchist who killed Archduke Ferdinand and his pregnant wife. Because of the actions of a deranged anarchist, Serbia got the blame from Austria-Hungary, and that set a chain of events that led to ultra violence, and some of the worst genocidal nightmares in history. We have our own unpredictable powder keg. It can happen again.
3
Harqan asks the right question - and clerics have a serious challenge formulating an answer that explains why the prophet's own use of the sword should not set an example for his followers. I believe there is a darkness at the heart of this particular faith.
6
All religious faith panders to a divine totalitarian, and there are no warm and fuzzy totalitarians of any sort.
6
We have to face certain facts. Islam is a violent religion because it's founding Prophet, Mohammad, was, in addition to a sage, a military leader who personally oversaw the killing of many people. This makes Islam unique among the monotheistic religions.
Both Abraham and Paul, the founder of Christianity, were men of peace. While later adherents to these religions committed acts of horrific violence, the religion itself is one that sees peace as the primary way of spreading and sustaining itself. This simply is not true of Islam.
Both Abraham and Paul, the founder of Christianity, were men of peace. While later adherents to these religions committed acts of horrific violence, the religion itself is one that sees peace as the primary way of spreading and sustaining itself. This simply is not true of Islam.
10
Muslim leaders are only asking this now? After WWII, the Christian world, particularly the mainstream churches tried to eliminate anti-Semitism within their congregations and stopped trying to convert Jews. Until the Muslim word accepts the validity of other religions they will be stuck in the cycle of violence.
13
In the world of religion what most adherents typically follow are unalterable, dogmatic beliefs. This may not have been the original intent of a prophet or spiritual teacher, but this is usually what the teachings descend to. True for Islam and all other religions.
Thinking people don't need such inflexible guidance. If you follow your conscience and common sense, you'll live with basic integrity and won't hurt others, at least not intentionally. Your conscience if listened to is all anyone really needs. All religions can be forces for good, but individuals have to discern for themselves what to believe and do. In other words, think for yourself. True for Muslims and everyone else.
Thinking people don't need such inflexible guidance. If you follow your conscience and common sense, you'll live with basic integrity and won't hurt others, at least not intentionally. Your conscience if listened to is all anyone really needs. All religions can be forces for good, but individuals have to discern for themselves what to believe and do. In other words, think for yourself. True for Muslims and everyone else.
44
Good job of connecting the dots in an informative way. Thanks.
1
"What has ISIS done that Muhammad did not do?"
I would like very much to know the answer to this question. I know that there are many verses in the Quran about peace, but is not Muhammad supposed to be the ultimate example for Muslims? How does does Muslim theology reconcile Muhammad's example with the other verses calling for peace? Just citing the verses calling for peace is not enough for me to understand, as it seems entirely inconsistent with Muhammad's example.
I would like very much to know the answer to this question. I know that there are many verses in the Quran about peace, but is not Muhammad supposed to be the ultimate example for Muslims? How does does Muslim theology reconcile Muhammad's example with the other verses calling for peace? Just citing the verses calling for peace is not enough for me to understand, as it seems entirely inconsistent with Muhammad's example.
5
Can not think of a better advertisement for secular societies. Leave these ancient fables where they belong, far away in history. Far away from modern human society.
12
That's the problem: France IS a secular society. For unfathomable reasons, it, and other secular countries throughout Europe, imported a huge number of immigrants from markedly non-secular cultures and whose primary identity is in their religious affiliation. Result? Cultures within cultures instead of a coherent national identity and culture.
4
As long as Muslims continue to blame everybody else for their problems, there will be no solution. And as long as (some) imams continue the preach violence in their mosques, the rest of the world will connect Islam with violence, and no pretzel logic (to use the apt term in a recent New Yorker article) will convince them otherwise
15
The controversy over the inherent violence of Islam reminds me that this beloved Nation of ours fought a brutal Civil War between the States. We chose to slaughter others so as to preserve our right to OWN a fellow human being.
Yet, we insist that we are a Christian state where tolerance and forbearance prevails.
How self deluded and hypocritical can we be? We blatantly forget our savage and inhumane treatment of a racially different men, women and children throughout our entire history.
We justified our horrific dehumanization of them then and to this day young black men are slaughtered mindlessly by some members of the law enforcement community with the implicit support of racists.
We fail to act competently on behalf of those we have exploited for centuries. Our hypocrisy is profound. Let us face ourselves. Let us recognize that religiously inspired American 'exceptionalism' has been used to rationalize senseless wars for territory to extract natural resources that belong to that region but which we will not allow to be locally controlled.
Why did we fight and kill Iraqis? For the oil massah...for the oil. Our exceptional role in the world is one of self indulgent greed and entitlement. We invaded the Middle East. We slaughtered their sons and daughters and mothers and fathers.
Yes, Iraqis lived under a brutal dictatorship as have most of the other Middle East nations but slaughtering them in a holy jihad will not solve the discord that plagues us all.
Yet, we insist that we are a Christian state where tolerance and forbearance prevails.
How self deluded and hypocritical can we be? We blatantly forget our savage and inhumane treatment of a racially different men, women and children throughout our entire history.
We justified our horrific dehumanization of them then and to this day young black men are slaughtered mindlessly by some members of the law enforcement community with the implicit support of racists.
We fail to act competently on behalf of those we have exploited for centuries. Our hypocrisy is profound. Let us face ourselves. Let us recognize that religiously inspired American 'exceptionalism' has been used to rationalize senseless wars for territory to extract natural resources that belong to that region but which we will not allow to be locally controlled.
Why did we fight and kill Iraqis? For the oil massah...for the oil. Our exceptional role in the world is one of self indulgent greed and entitlement. We invaded the Middle East. We slaughtered their sons and daughters and mothers and fathers.
Yes, Iraqis lived under a brutal dictatorship as have most of the other Middle East nations but slaughtering them in a holy jihad will not solve the discord that plagues us all.
3
That we are violent does not absolve others of their violence.
7
Hitchens had this topic far better researched and drawn to far more astute conclusions than we shall ever see out of the NYT. All religions poison everything they touch. Moderate believers fertilize the soil from which radicals grow, and provide the social forest into which they run to hide.
The idea that relationships between humans that foster progress and peace must rely on faith in an imaginary divine dictator is a great moral evil. The progress& peace must come from the natural tendencies of humans acting under reason.
The idea that relationships between humans that foster progress and peace must rely on faith in an imaginary divine dictator is a great moral evil. The progress& peace must come from the natural tendencies of humans acting under reason.
11
This introspection within the Muslim community is a good thing, and long overdue. I'd say that there's nothing inherently violent about Islam, at least not compared to Christianity and Judaeism which also have tons of violent passages in their holy books. If you don't think so, consider this: in both, when Moses wanted to get his people out of Egypt, God tried to help out by slaying every first-born son who was Egyptian. So the Judeo-Christian God is, technically, guilty of genocide, according to the Bible.
But the day-to-day practices and beliefs of all the monotheisms aren't particularly violent. What is most likely the cause of the violence is lives without hope, when people are born into poverty, have no chance for a decent future, and have no purpose in life. Easy to throw one's life away for a cause in those circumstances.
Still I think some of these quoted are right, that Islam can have an effect on this terrorist minority, by having a religious revolution. A change in outlook across the religion, as has occurred in other faiths. Most important would be tolerance for other religions, the ability to say, those people believe differently but that's fine. Also every time someone engages in terrorist acts in the name of Islam, it would be good if every prominent leader of the religion issued a deafening statement that the act does not hold with Islam and the terrorists are excommunicated, barred from heaven, for their transgression.
But the day-to-day practices and beliefs of all the monotheisms aren't particularly violent. What is most likely the cause of the violence is lives without hope, when people are born into poverty, have no chance for a decent future, and have no purpose in life. Easy to throw one's life away for a cause in those circumstances.
Still I think some of these quoted are right, that Islam can have an effect on this terrorist minority, by having a religious revolution. A change in outlook across the religion, as has occurred in other faiths. Most important would be tolerance for other religions, the ability to say, those people believe differently but that's fine. Also every time someone engages in terrorist acts in the name of Islam, it would be good if every prominent leader of the religion issued a deafening statement that the act does not hold with Islam and the terrorists are excommunicated, barred from heaven, for their transgression.
1
Astonishing! Astonishing that in an article about this, which talks about "Intellectuals supporting him [Egyptian President Sisi] have applauded his efforts and called for the state to lead a sweeping top-down overhaul of the popular understanding of Islam, " barely mentions the nation that has taken an extraordinarily strict "top-down" approach to Islam, and with its massive oil-funded coffers has spread that approach throughout the Muslim world: Saudi Arabia. Its Salafist/Wahhabism is at the root of ALL the fanatical and radical Sunni Muslim organizations throughout the world, from France and the UK to Malaysia and Indonesia. Boko Haram, ISIS, Taliban, Al-Queda etc. etc. all have its roots and its funding from there. But no, Saudi Arabia plays nice with the Western world and provides oil to the world, so it continues to get a free pass. I think one way to counter this brand of radical Islam is emphasize that it is following an 18th century false prophet.
7
Buddhists are currently persecuting Muslims in Burma. After receiving the ten commandments, one of which prohibits killing, the Jews went on to slaughter the Canaanites. Protestant-Catholic wars raged in Europe for 500 years. Christians murdered Jews for 2000 years. The secular "religions" of Nazism and Communism killed tens of millions. The question is not what is inherently wrong with Islam that makes its adherents kill but rather what is inherently wrong with humans that makes them kill.
80
So well said. I would love to spread your words everywhere, especially the last sentence. Thank you!
2
A religion is not just its holy writings but the way its practitioners behave. Sins are sins of omission as well as commission. Even if a religious community does not collectively act in a violent manner, if it allows some members to act violently in the community's name, that community bears a moral responsibility, even if not a legal responsibility.
In some ways what is occurring in France is more like the I.R.A. than I.S.I.S., guerrilla warfare, where a small number of practitioners are encouraged by the passivity of themuch larger community from which they can operate and then disappear.
In some ways what is occurring in France is more like the I.R.A. than I.S.I.S., guerrilla warfare, where a small number of practitioners are encouraged by the passivity of themuch larger community from which they can operate and then disappear.
3
The ongoing subjugation of women is, by itself, a continuous act of violence. There is no peace possible when that injustice remains in place.
13
The violence is likely due in no small part to being poor. Many Muslim countries are less wealthy than others, which can lead to situations where people are more hopeless, more full of despair, more likely to be controlled by dictators or warlords, and more likely to be radicalized by insane nut jobs out to harm others. If you had the choice of starving to death or following some insane imam bent on world domination, which would you choose?
1
I think there is something that needs to be clarified. A lot of people in the west have such a wrong view of Muslims as a group. 1.6 Billion Muslims are not a homogeneous group that are all following the Quran word by word or running around with a sword in their hand looking to kill an "Infidel". Majority are living their lives as normal as any other person any where else in the world. Please stop pointing at individual verses in Quran to prove that Islam or Muslims are more violent than Christian or Jews or any other group for that matter. For a person to be Muslim, all they need is two basic beliefs. One is the belief in Oneness of God and second that Muhammad (PBUH) is God's last prophet and messenger. Let me give you an example!
I have an older brother in Pakistan who is fully observant for the lack of better word, something similar to an Orthodox Jew. I have a cousin who is an actress who does not cover her or head or anything. I have another cousin who Drinks as in drinks Alcohol. I, personally, don't drink and try to avoid what is generally forbidden by Islam but hardly pray other than one Friday prayer (there are 5 daily prayers that Muslim are suppose to perform). And that is pretty much how Muslims are. Some are more observant than others but hardly a homogeneous group.
Please read beyond the occasional news. Meet a local Muslim or go visit a Muslim country, it'll do you good!
I have an older brother in Pakistan who is fully observant for the lack of better word, something similar to an Orthodox Jew. I have a cousin who is an actress who does not cover her or head or anything. I have another cousin who Drinks as in drinks Alcohol. I, personally, don't drink and try to avoid what is generally forbidden by Islam but hardly pray other than one Friday prayer (there are 5 daily prayers that Muslim are suppose to perform). And that is pretty much how Muslims are. Some are more observant than others but hardly a homogeneous group.
Please read beyond the occasional news. Meet a local Muslim or go visit a Muslim country, it'll do you good!
What was brought out in the recent attack in France is that there are 5 million Muslims in France, within which 5000 are suspected to be radicalized, and of course, only a handful of those 5000 have actually committed crimes in France. So one might take the M. Steven Fish view.
But what was also brought out in the recent attack in France is that the French security forces don't have enough manpower to keep surveillance on 5000 radicals to try to prevent attacks.
So it takes only 0.1% of the population to be radicalized and of those only 0.1% to commit acts of terror (which makes it rational to expect more attacks from radicals) to completely tie up the security apparatus of a nation.
Terror is not like other crimes. An individual citizen can do a lot to try to protect himself from crime, because crime comes from material motives, so, e.g., you put your valuables in a locker in the bank, you lock your car when you leave it, etc.
The nature of terrorism is that it seeks to cause terror, i.e., it is random, unpredictable, etc. It strikes at schools, offices, places of worship, stadiums, trains, buses etc,. places where people congregate, etc. It is difficult to guard against.
So the question "is Islam violent?" is not a properly posed question. A lower murder rate among Muslims related to money, lust, and the other common motives than other people is besides the point. Even the incidence of conventional warfare is besides the point. It is all about terrorism.
But what was also brought out in the recent attack in France is that the French security forces don't have enough manpower to keep surveillance on 5000 radicals to try to prevent attacks.
So it takes only 0.1% of the population to be radicalized and of those only 0.1% to commit acts of terror (which makes it rational to expect more attacks from radicals) to completely tie up the security apparatus of a nation.
Terror is not like other crimes. An individual citizen can do a lot to try to protect himself from crime, because crime comes from material motives, so, e.g., you put your valuables in a locker in the bank, you lock your car when you leave it, etc.
The nature of terrorism is that it seeks to cause terror, i.e., it is random, unpredictable, etc. It strikes at schools, offices, places of worship, stadiums, trains, buses etc,. places where people congregate, etc. It is difficult to guard against.
So the question "is Islam violent?" is not a properly posed question. A lower murder rate among Muslims related to money, lust, and the other common motives than other people is besides the point. Even the incidence of conventional warfare is besides the point. It is all about terrorism.
2
How does Islam appear anything but violent- from the fatwa against Salman Rushdie, to the murder of Theo van Gogh for his expose of Muslim women in his film"Submission', to the attack on the Twin Towers and now this.
I think France's policy of banning the veil is a good one- if you are WILLINGLY in a country, accepts its rules, learn its language and accept its mores or leave. Mohammed Bouyeri (van Gogh's assasin) had dual citizenship, a practice that no host country, including ours should allow.
That said, I have not found one religion, taken to its extremes that is inherently peaceful.
I think France's policy of banning the veil is a good one- if you are WILLINGLY in a country, accepts its rules, learn its language and accept its mores or leave. Mohammed Bouyeri (van Gogh's assasin) had dual citizenship, a practice that no host country, including ours should allow.
That said, I have not found one religion, taken to its extremes that is inherently peaceful.
9
". . . an anguished debate among Muslims here in the heart of the Islamic world about why their religion appears cited so often as a cause for violence and bloodshed."
Why is it cited? Because it is.
Why is it? Read the Qur'an. That version published by the King Fahd Complex in Saudi Arabia. While some scholars feel it its translations are inaccurate, they are used by virtually all the world's Muslims that do not read Arabic, and its interpretations the foundation for all Islamic clergy's teachings and instruction to their congregations. It is online in English, among others, at their web site. Some 55 different language versions are distributed, 10 million a year.
Read it. Then you will know why.
There is no hope of mutual accommodation between Islam and the rest of humanity.
Some will mention that there we periods of horror visited on non-believers by other religions in the past, citing the Crusades, even the rule of King David. That Islam is, similarly, still a young religion, that it will mature as did others. And so? The evils of the past do not justify evils of the present. That was then. This is now.
Which leaves us with two alternatives. Accept the horrors that Islam will continue to perpetuate upon us in its quest for global domination -- indeed, universal conversion -- or combat it, now, at its root.
Islam is incompatible with our existence. It has no place in modern society.
Why is it cited? Because it is.
Why is it? Read the Qur'an. That version published by the King Fahd Complex in Saudi Arabia. While some scholars feel it its translations are inaccurate, they are used by virtually all the world's Muslims that do not read Arabic, and its interpretations the foundation for all Islamic clergy's teachings and instruction to their congregations. It is online in English, among others, at their web site. Some 55 different language versions are distributed, 10 million a year.
Read it. Then you will know why.
There is no hope of mutual accommodation between Islam and the rest of humanity.
Some will mention that there we periods of horror visited on non-believers by other religions in the past, citing the Crusades, even the rule of King David. That Islam is, similarly, still a young religion, that it will mature as did others. And so? The evils of the past do not justify evils of the present. That was then. This is now.
Which leaves us with two alternatives. Accept the horrors that Islam will continue to perpetuate upon us in its quest for global domination -- indeed, universal conversion -- or combat it, now, at its root.
Islam is incompatible with our existence. It has no place in modern society.
21
So many commenters here ask us to take a look at America and the West's actions, to take into account what we have done against the Muslim world.
The fact is, we do this. We just had the Senate's torture report. We have debates on television, in newspapers, and online. Go to France and other Western democracies, and people will see this questioning taking place there, too. We are not perfect, but we try.
No one is looking to excuse our roles in provoking violence. What so many in the West wish is that Muslims and those speaking for Islam open themselves up to the same scrutiny. It is easy to blame and condemn others. Where is the blame, debate, or scrutiny within Islam itself?
The fact is, we do this. We just had the Senate's torture report. We have debates on television, in newspapers, and online. Go to France and other Western democracies, and people will see this questioning taking place there, too. We are not perfect, but we try.
No one is looking to excuse our roles in provoking violence. What so many in the West wish is that Muslims and those speaking for Islam open themselves up to the same scrutiny. It is easy to blame and condemn others. Where is the blame, debate, or scrutiny within Islam itself?
3
Its well documented fact in history that, Muhammad waged wars, had multiple wives, had multiple concubines. had written down the equality of woman hearing from God, that she is not equal to men.
The followers of Islam as written in Quran as told by God to Muhammad, follow his footprints, Nothing special in debating the interpretation of the verse.
The followers of Islam as written in Quran as told by God to Muhammad, follow his footprints, Nothing special in debating the interpretation of the verse.
6
There are mainstream, not fringe, Muslim teachings such as death for apostasy and blasphemy that are incongruous with western civilization. These are in the Hadiths and are not just fringe groups as the politically correct like to espouse. Until there is a real Islamic reformation that promotes tolerance, Islam will be a threat to the world. Violent misogynous scripture exists in all the Abrahamic text but since the reformation Christians (although they promote Armageddon) have not been regularly killing non-believers. The intolerance is inherent in Islam not in western civilization. The Koran is the answer, and will provide for either theocratic servitude or never ending conflict.
10
Look any time the church-state line is crossed the people have little choice than to assume the religion is the Law. Most of the parts of the old testament are not unlike the Koran. It is about an "Angry, Vengeful, God". Why should Radical Islam be interpret any differently? Christians claim the new testament is about a Forgiving God of Love, except when wars explode into reams of killing. Then up pops the old testament to justify the "Eye For an Eye" passage that includes criminal law, such as the"Death Penalty". Having a religion be the guide for civil and criminal law is like handing a loaded gun to a 3 year old. Everyone interprets it their own way. There is no way that religious law can be interpreted uniformly.
We should all strive to drive religion out of our public existance. Privately is where all religions should exist, either at home or a place of worship. That's evolution and what we should expect from all governments.
We should all strive to drive religion out of our public existance. Privately is where all religions should exist, either at home or a place of worship. That's evolution and what we should expect from all governments.
7
“What has ISIS done that Muhammad did not do?” an outspoken atheist, Ahmed Harqan, recently asked... So a religion founded in blood and conquest seems to be having trouble shedding its roots. Is that really surprising? Where Muslims who convert to other religions or atheism are deemed apostates and condemned to death in the Koran. Similarly that it is the duty of a good Muslim to wage jihad.
According to the Koran and Islamic teachings, the world is divided into the House of Islam and the House of War, the Dar al-Islam and the Dar al-harb. The Dar al-Islam is all those lands in which a Muslim government rules and the Holy Law of Islam prevails. Non-Muslims may live there on Muslim sufferance. The outside world, which has not yet been subjugated, is called the "House of War," and strictly speaking a perpetual state of jihad, of holy war, is imposed by the law.
The Western world struggles to be politically correct and be an apologist for Islam, but the truth is is that Islam at its core was born in blood and conquest. Its intolerance of others has clearly been written into the Koran.
According to the Koran and Islamic teachings, the world is divided into the House of Islam and the House of War, the Dar al-Islam and the Dar al-harb. The Dar al-Islam is all those lands in which a Muslim government rules and the Holy Law of Islam prevails. Non-Muslims may live there on Muslim sufferance. The outside world, which has not yet been subjugated, is called the "House of War," and strictly speaking a perpetual state of jihad, of holy war, is imposed by the law.
The Western world struggles to be politically correct and be an apologist for Islam, but the truth is is that Islam at its core was born in blood and conquest. Its intolerance of others has clearly been written into the Koran.
11
There's a simple place to start: read the Koran.
It's as simple to read as any other holy book, so it won't be any more difficult than when you read your own holy book..... you DID read your own holy book, didn't you? I did, though I must confess that I read it after I had become atheist, however, I had spent the decades before that reading other people's holy books. Other people's holy books seemed to promise a new point of view. They did, although not the one generally agreed upon, which is how I wound up atheist.
But I did not read the Koran before I reverted to my natural atheism ( all persons are born without any religious beliefs, all religions must be learned.) That's because it was stated, no matter where I looked, that all translations from the Arabic language were inferior, that one could not possibly understand the religion or the Koran unless one read it in the original language. This asked too much. I hadn't been expected to learn Latin or Greek, Hebrew, Sanskrit, Chinese, Japanese, etc., to read those holy books, so I simply accepted them at their word and moved on.
Until 1996. Enter, stage right: The Taliban.
And the raging debate on whether or not Islam is a religion of peace.
Time for me to read the Koran.
It's time for you to read the Koran. It will only take a day or two, but you need to know what is in there for yourself. You need to decide the accuracy of what you are being told in terms of the use of "peace".
I'm sure it won't make you an atheist.
It's as simple to read as any other holy book, so it won't be any more difficult than when you read your own holy book..... you DID read your own holy book, didn't you? I did, though I must confess that I read it after I had become atheist, however, I had spent the decades before that reading other people's holy books. Other people's holy books seemed to promise a new point of view. They did, although not the one generally agreed upon, which is how I wound up atheist.
But I did not read the Koran before I reverted to my natural atheism ( all persons are born without any religious beliefs, all religions must be learned.) That's because it was stated, no matter where I looked, that all translations from the Arabic language were inferior, that one could not possibly understand the religion or the Koran unless one read it in the original language. This asked too much. I hadn't been expected to learn Latin or Greek, Hebrew, Sanskrit, Chinese, Japanese, etc., to read those holy books, so I simply accepted them at their word and moved on.
Until 1996. Enter, stage right: The Taliban.
And the raging debate on whether or not Islam is a religion of peace.
Time for me to read the Koran.
It's time for you to read the Koran. It will only take a day or two, but you need to know what is in there for yourself. You need to decide the accuracy of what you are being told in terms of the use of "peace".
I'm sure it won't make you an atheist.
3
Is Islam a religion of inherent violence? In the past I didn't think so. Time and experience changes how people think and feel. My thoughts and feelings about Islam are changing. It is difficult to focus on what is being said and written about Islam's non-violent nature when I am horrified and appalled by the behavior its adherents are advocating and demonstrating.
7
Islam as a religion is not violent. Islam as a political tool is. The only religious education that a majority of Muslims around the world receive consists in memorizing the entire Quaran. The rest gets "filled" in by rulers, demagogues, extremists and so on. For example, the founding ruler of Saudi Arabia, Bin Saud, assembled an army of Wahhabi followers and eliminated any Muslim that did not adhere to his brand of Islam. When he proved victorious, it was taken as a divine sign. His descendants to this day, rule, control and promote the Wahhabi strain of Islam aggressively. About 15% of the population in Saudi Arabia adheres to the Shia brand and they still present a target for extremists. The ruling family of Jordan receives legitimacy of political power by claiming to be direct descendants of the Prophet. Religious educations centers around that narrative. When Russia intervened in Afghanistan, Afghans united behind the identity that Islam provided against the Infidels. After the Russians left, Afghan Muslims turned on each other. As long as Islam serves as a political tool, it will be open to abuses and the true meaning of the religion will remain secondary. Religious education in majority countries is poor and tightly controlled by whoever is in power. Religious education unhinged from politics is the key to less extremists. But the powers in majority Muslim countries are not interested in that.
2
Sometimes I wonder whether the main difference between killing by Muslims and killing by Christian nations (like us) is that one follows the terrorist pattern, killing few but making a splash and causing a disproportional amount of fear, where the other is state-sponsored, kills many and is covered up.
Surveys show that evangelical Christians have the most hawkish views on many issues including the death penalty, war in Iraq, torture, and the use of drones. American Christian individuals don't strap on a gun and go kill people on the street but, as a group, they whole-heartedly support the government violence that many question. And they justify it by quoting from the Old Testament, conveniently ignoring the fact that there is a New Testament where Jesus came to preach turning the other cheek, forgiving, and where he modelled the spiritual power of dying - not killing - for a cause.
This fascinating article seems to say to me that we have a very warped view of Islam and violence. Where would we get a view that doesn't match reality? From the media. From what they choose to emphasize and de-emphasize. I definitely hope that Muslim leaders will be able to get out the message that the religion doesn't condone violence. But we need to look at the fantasy story we tell ourselves about how we're all good and they're all bad.
Surveys show that evangelical Christians have the most hawkish views on many issues including the death penalty, war in Iraq, torture, and the use of drones. American Christian individuals don't strap on a gun and go kill people on the street but, as a group, they whole-heartedly support the government violence that many question. And they justify it by quoting from the Old Testament, conveniently ignoring the fact that there is a New Testament where Jesus came to preach turning the other cheek, forgiving, and where he modelled the spiritual power of dying - not killing - for a cause.
This fascinating article seems to say to me that we have a very warped view of Islam and violence. Where would we get a view that doesn't match reality? From the media. From what they choose to emphasize and de-emphasize. I definitely hope that Muslim leaders will be able to get out the message that the religion doesn't condone violence. But we need to look at the fantasy story we tell ourselves about how we're all good and they're all bad.
61
Honestly, the main difference is one of targeting. The U.S. has caused many civilian deaths, but civilian deaths are not our goal. We tend to seek out specific actors or groups of actors and are not particularly interested in civilians (one exception may be the Tokyo fire bombs of WWII). If an outsider were feeling generous they might call us sloppy. If they were feeling harsher, they might call us criminally negligent. Either way, it would be a stretch to say the U.S./"West" actually DESIRES civilian deaths in Iraq, Pakistan, Afghanistan, or anywhere else. Compare that with the desires of our enemies. Journalists, little girls, school children, cartoonists, aid workers... These are not accidental deaths. The shooters' bullets didn't miss soldiers and wind up hitting cartoonists. Boko H isn't accidentally kidnapping the wrong people. The Taliban didn't mistake that school for a military installation. Palestinian rockets aren't misfiring into marketplaces. Iraqi car bombers aren't taking wrong turns into civilian areas (this does not excuse the separate issue of Israeli settlements, btw). So if we're talking "all good" and "all bad," sure we've both got something to answer for. If we're talking which side has the most malicious intent... I think the kind of actions we've seen in recent months from ISIS et al speak for themselves.
4
Not everyone in Western society tells themselves a fantasy story. Even the New Testament preaches "an eye for an eye." It doesn't mean rational human beings all believe it. One type of violence does not justify another.
The Islamic world needs to go through it's version of the Enlightenment. Until then things do not paint a hopeful picture for the future.
5
Islamic Thugs are thugs justifying actions with Islam.
The young men joining jihadists and becoming bombers
are not surprise when you consider the 50% and higher
unemployment rates in Mideast countries.
Especially in a culture that does not allow marriage
or even dating with men with no financial prospects.
Check out the anger and violence we see in US urban
area with 20-30% unemployment. When men have
no productive work, no prospects of gaining the wealth
it takes to date and marry, why not join a jihadist
group and at least get in some raping.
Had the wealth of the Mideast been dispersed throughout
their society instead of re-creating or maintaining monarchies
we would be looking at a different world. One where Islam
could once again become the religion of the most advanced
researchers and scientists in the world. Just like it used
to be in the year 1200.
The young men joining jihadists and becoming bombers
are not surprise when you consider the 50% and higher
unemployment rates in Mideast countries.
Especially in a culture that does not allow marriage
or even dating with men with no financial prospects.
Check out the anger and violence we see in US urban
area with 20-30% unemployment. When men have
no productive work, no prospects of gaining the wealth
it takes to date and marry, why not join a jihadist
group and at least get in some raping.
Had the wealth of the Mideast been dispersed throughout
their society instead of re-creating or maintaining monarchies
we would be looking at a different world. One where Islam
could once again become the religion of the most advanced
researchers and scientists in the world. Just like it used
to be in the year 1200.
Has the New York Times ever, since March of 2003, run any articles about Judeo-Christians in the United States having an "anguished debate" about the hundreds of thousands of innocents killed as a result of America's War in Iraq, War in Afghanistan, support for Operation Protective Edge, or drone strikes in Pakistan, Yemen, etc.?
I can't remember any such stories about any such Judeo-Christian anguished debate. But man, we just don't wait a second looking to see if Muslims are having an anguished debate about terrorists who happen to be Muslim.
I sure would love to see such an anguished debate among Judeo-Christians. Because a lot of the anguish I'm seeing in the New York Times is anguish over not killing even more Muslims.
I can't remember any such stories about any such Judeo-Christian anguished debate. But man, we just don't wait a second looking to see if Muslims are having an anguished debate about terrorists who happen to be Muslim.
I sure would love to see such an anguished debate among Judeo-Christians. Because a lot of the anguish I'm seeing in the New York Times is anguish over not killing even more Muslims.
1
The old "blame colonialism" trope. Let's not forget that Muslim Arabs are the original colonialists. Expansion of the Caliphate took place by force across Africa, Spain, India and other lands spreading Islam by force. They originated the Eastern slave trade centuries before the western trade ,enslaving millions more Africans and Europeans than the western trade. Make no misake, the dubiously "oppressed" seek to become the oppressors.
8
are moslems violent? yes--they are murdering thousands of people in the name of their religion---very simple.
5
It seems to me that it's a distraction to try to quantify the extent to which "Islam" [which is not a monolith] is more or less toxic than other religions. Violence, with few exceptions, takes place in a political context. No religion is likely to motivate violence absent political conditions, whereas everyone knows that political violence does not require - but may make use of - religious ideology. Similarly, although religion may be an instrument with which to demonize "the other," it is not the only instrument that works to demonize "the other."
Ordinary human beings are capable of doing horrible things to other human beings, under certain conditions. It is fatuous to imagine that only those fundamentally unlike yourself would commit horrible acts. Most of us are just lucky not to be in a situation that nudges us in that direction.
Ordinary human beings are capable of doing horrible things to other human beings, under certain conditions. It is fatuous to imagine that only those fundamentally unlike yourself would commit horrible acts. Most of us are just lucky not to be in a situation that nudges us in that direction.
2
Now it is time to stop referring to "terrorists" and "ISIS" and let's start calling them what they really are: "Saudi Arabian Wahabbi funded Fundamentalists"! Saudi Arabia provided funds for the 9/11 flight training; Saudi Arabians were the majority of the 9/11 perpetrators; bin Laden was a Saudi; bin Laden's family was given special consideration to depart USA following imposition of a 'no fly' period following 9/11; Saddam Hussein was a Wahabbi fundamentalist and his followers are now being funded from Saudi Arabia; and Saudi Wahabbi's are now funding 'recruiters' around the world and hiring youngsters and the dis-possessed to to commit the atrocities in Paris, Indonesia, Syria, Iraq and elsewhere.
Follow the $$$$$!
Walter G. Toronto.
Follow the $$$$$!
Walter G. Toronto.
6
The Egyptian president is a brave man - and only states the obvious. That his statements may be self serving does not make them any less true. As many outside of the mainstream of Islam have said for a long time - Islam is in need of a reformation. I am no fan of autocratic governments but they are not the issue here. The wahhabis of Saudi Arabia have used their petrodollars to export their "my way or the highway" version of Islam to Pakistan and around the world through their hate filled teachings via the madrassas they fund.
The people in these parts of the world; like Pakistan; support the death penalty for blasphemy; the death penalty for religious conversion - these are religious reasons that are antithetical to a pluralistic tolerant society.
Other than Russia/Ukraine, every other conflict on the planet has Islamofascists as instigators. These are fascists as they use religion to impose their iron fist on all they govern. They are killing Hindu in India; Christians across Africa; Jews in Israel (and trying everywhere else like Paris); ethnic/religious minorities in Iraq; and even other Islamic people who don't abide by their strict code across the middle east (be they Shia or whomever).
Yet many Muslim in these parts of the world at least tacitly support these guys or else they could never be in power. Finally the liberal western progressives need to get on board. As the incident at Brandeis with Ayann Hirsi Ali shows; the left wing has lost it's way on this issue.
The people in these parts of the world; like Pakistan; support the death penalty for blasphemy; the death penalty for religious conversion - these are religious reasons that are antithetical to a pluralistic tolerant society.
Other than Russia/Ukraine, every other conflict on the planet has Islamofascists as instigators. These are fascists as they use religion to impose their iron fist on all they govern. They are killing Hindu in India; Christians across Africa; Jews in Israel (and trying everywhere else like Paris); ethnic/religious minorities in Iraq; and even other Islamic people who don't abide by their strict code across the middle east (be they Shia or whomever).
Yet many Muslim in these parts of the world at least tacitly support these guys or else they could never be in power. Finally the liberal western progressives need to get on board. As the incident at Brandeis with Ayann Hirsi Ali shows; the left wing has lost it's way on this issue.
6
The Saudis funded the bloody anti-democratic coup in Egypt and your brave General Sisi was responsible for the massacre of thousands of peaceful demonstrators- still surprised why this might lead to militancy?
1
It is government itself which is inherently coercive; and it is by employing the state to enforce religious orthodoxy that Islam also becomes violent. “Official clerics and jihadists . . . both say that Islam is the source of the state’s authority, and that we should all be governed by Islamic law.”
As Madison said, the human conscience cannot be coerced. The very attempt to do so (whether by governments or by terrorists) is a human rights atrocity.
As Madison said, the human conscience cannot be coerced. The very attempt to do so (whether by governments or by terrorists) is a human rights atrocity.
Too many Muslims obviously spend a great deal of time professing to know what an immortal humanoid creator of the universe thinks about human affairs, and also conducting rituals intended to appease or influence what this creator does or does not do to people. The first practice is the sociopathic practice Muslim scholars call "shirk" and the second sociopathic practice is called "idolatry" by the same scholars. Somewhere along the line, Islam became the opposite of what it purports to be, a way of living without the practices of shirk and idolatry.
1
"Some people who feel crushed or ignored will go toward extremism, and they use religion because that is what they have at hand,” said Said Ferjani, an official of Tunisia’s mainstream Islamist party, Ennahda, speaking about the broader phenomenon of violence in the name of Islam. “If you are attacked and you have a fork in your hand, you will fight back with a fork.”
I'm not discounting the argument in its entirety. However, how does that explain Osama Bin Laden's deviation from moderation to extremism? He was an educated member of one of the wealthiest families in Saudi Arabia. And how did the 12 people murdered in cold blood in Paris attack their killers so that they felt compelled to use their forks against them? If a group is indoctrinated to believe all "infidels" who do not immediately convert deserve physical death then a percentage of the "faithful" will take the message to heart and act on it regardless of socio-economic conditions. This is particularly true when the governments and leaders implement laws supporting these beliefs (e.g. Saudi Arabia). Add this to a culture of "honor" where any criticism is viewed as insult and cause for violence and you have a recipe for disaster.
All societies have a percentage of their population disaffected and living on the fringe. Not all societies breed international terrorists.
I'm not discounting the argument in its entirety. However, how does that explain Osama Bin Laden's deviation from moderation to extremism? He was an educated member of one of the wealthiest families in Saudi Arabia. And how did the 12 people murdered in cold blood in Paris attack their killers so that they felt compelled to use their forks against them? If a group is indoctrinated to believe all "infidels" who do not immediately convert deserve physical death then a percentage of the "faithful" will take the message to heart and act on it regardless of socio-economic conditions. This is particularly true when the governments and leaders implement laws supporting these beliefs (e.g. Saudi Arabia). Add this to a culture of "honor" where any criticism is viewed as insult and cause for violence and you have a recipe for disaster.
All societies have a percentage of their population disaffected and living on the fringe. Not all societies breed international terrorists.
5
“It is unbelievable that the thought we hold holy pushes the Muslim community to be a source of worry, fear, danger, murder and destruction to all the world,” President Abdel Fattah el-Sisi of Egypt lamented last week in a speech to the clerics of the official religious establishment. “You need to stand sternly,” he told them, calling for no less than “a religious revolution.”
President Abdel Fattah el-Sisi has it right. A good place to start to bring about positive changes are the mosques, which can be peaceful houses of worship or breeding grounds for terrorists. Imams must consistently get the message out that violence has no place in Islam. Free societies will have to decide what to do about Imams who preach violence and allow their mosques to be used as jihadi recruitment centers. One possibility may be to put laws in place that result in the deportation of these Imams to middle eastern countries where their ideologies will fit right in.
President Abdel Fattah el-Sisi has it right. A good place to start to bring about positive changes are the mosques, which can be peaceful houses of worship or breeding grounds for terrorists. Imams must consistently get the message out that violence has no place in Islam. Free societies will have to decide what to do about Imams who preach violence and allow their mosques to be used as jihadi recruitment centers. One possibility may be to put laws in place that result in the deportation of these Imams to middle eastern countries where their ideologies will fit right in.
4
Clearly, the vast majority of Muslim’s are not terrorists, however, the repeated deafening silence of the global Islamic community whenever one of these mass killings occur, imply at best a tacit acceptance of the idea that it is ok to kill in the name of Islam, and at worst an approval of it. Adherents to Islam are quick to become outraged on a global scale at slights and insults against them, but are virtually silent to condemn the global atrocities committed by Muslims in the name of their religion.
Case in point - there are frequent demonstrations and condemnations in the Islamic world against Israel and its treatment of the Palestinians. When ISIS rampages across Iraq and Syria - killing thousands of other Muslims, women and children, in the most bloodthirsty and gruesome manner, supposedly hijacking the teachings of Islam, there is.... silence. No global protests demanding their governments do something, no overt moral outrage. Nothing.
When comics are published with the image of the prophet in Europe, there are world-wide demonstrations across the Islamic world; people are besides themselves with outrage, riots brake out; flags are burned. When those same cartoonists are murdered the response of the global Islamic community is… silence. A few perfunctory statements by leaders, but other than that silence.
The blame lies with the gunmen, but the implicit acceptance of their tactics by the large majority of the Islamic world is certainly a contributor.
Case in point - there are frequent demonstrations and condemnations in the Islamic world against Israel and its treatment of the Palestinians. When ISIS rampages across Iraq and Syria - killing thousands of other Muslims, women and children, in the most bloodthirsty and gruesome manner, supposedly hijacking the teachings of Islam, there is.... silence. No global protests demanding their governments do something, no overt moral outrage. Nothing.
When comics are published with the image of the prophet in Europe, there are world-wide demonstrations across the Islamic world; people are besides themselves with outrage, riots brake out; flags are burned. When those same cartoonists are murdered the response of the global Islamic community is… silence. A few perfunctory statements by leaders, but other than that silence.
The blame lies with the gunmen, but the implicit acceptance of their tactics by the large majority of the Islamic world is certainly a contributor.
8
Hitchens has the best, and still current comment on this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyoOfRog1EM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyoOfRog1EM
2
Excellent article. However, it omits one development. However much the Bible contains passages promoting (or at least condoning) violence, Europe and North America have been profoundly influenced by the 18th century Enlightenment with its emphasis on rationality and humanitarian reform. Not so the Middle East. Until Islam is tempered by its own Enlightenment, Islamic societies will remain wedded to a fundamentally religious worldview. To get a sense of what this means, read Aayan Hirsi Ali's brilliant autobiography titled "Infidel."
121
And the only Muslims who tried to create an Enlightenment -- the Bahais in 19th century Persia -- were routinely slaughtered for blasphemy. They still are.
7
Interesting enough there is a relatively simple way to solve this problem.
That is for Muslim authorities to issue a fatwa saying that terrorism is not Islamic and all those who advocate and commit terror in the name of Islam are not Muslims, that is they are condemned to Hell.
That is for Muslim authorities to issue a fatwa saying that terrorism is not Islamic and all those who advocate and commit terror in the name of Islam are not Muslims, that is they are condemned to Hell.
4
As long as a majority of Moslems support death penalty for Apostasy and Blasphemy (based on their religious beliefs), their religion is a violent one. Nearly 80% of Afghanis and about 65% of Egyptians in a 2013 Pew Poll supported this view.
Until a majority of Moslems publicly and loudly denounce such views, Islamic extremism is likely to continue.
Until a majority of Moslems publicly and loudly denounce such views, Islamic extremism is likely to continue.
6
How much of this hatred towards the West has to do with any or all of the following:
1. The continuing interference in other countries government (see Iran's 20th century history) and "cozy" relationships with oil producing countries such as Saudi Arabia.
2. The US led wars in Iraq and Afghanistan - Thanks, Dick. Thanks, George Jr.
3. The ever on going Palestinian/Israeli conflicts/wars
4. And although stated already in #1 - oil, oil, oil (and now in Afghanistan potential mineral extractions)
1. The continuing interference in other countries government (see Iran's 20th century history) and "cozy" relationships with oil producing countries such as Saudi Arabia.
2. The US led wars in Iraq and Afghanistan - Thanks, Dick. Thanks, George Jr.
3. The ever on going Palestinian/Israeli conflicts/wars
4. And although stated already in #1 - oil, oil, oil (and now in Afghanistan potential mineral extractions)
The Buddha was a peaceful man, and never recommended violence against anyone. Jesus was a peaceful man, and never recommended violence against anyone. Neither is on record for lusting after sex either.
But Mohammed was a violent man, who ordered beheadings of foes and waged wars; and he had a harem of many women, including several child brides. Therein lies the difference between Islam and most other religions -- at its very core was a violent and lustful man. No doubt many followers of ISIS and other terrorists believe they are merely following his example.
But Mohammed was a violent man, who ordered beheadings of foes and waged wars; and he had a harem of many women, including several child brides. Therein lies the difference between Islam and most other religions -- at its very core was a violent and lustful man. No doubt many followers of ISIS and other terrorists believe they are merely following his example.
4
Good for President al-Sisi. His remark calling upon Muslim clerics to speak out about this violent streak in Islam is real progress. We hear far too little from Islamic organizations when these all to common events occur. If Islam wants to be known as the religion of peace then there is some work to be done on the PR front.
3
Muslim is what muslims do.
Islam is what Islamists do.
Islam is what Islamists do.
3
• "The rash of horrific attacks in the name of Islam is spurring an anguished debate among Muslims here in the heart of the Islamic world about why their religion appears cited so often as a cause for violence and bloodshed."
I believe you have answered their question – really no need to read further. Maybe they should stop reading the Quran for a moment and take a good look at themselves.
President Abdel Fattah el-Sisi of Egypt "lamented,” calling for no less than a religious revolution. Well, that's what you have, a "religious revolution," Holy War.
My own question is why does complicit, instigating America feel no shame, no responsibility?
CAMERON, HARPER*, ABBOTT, HOLLANDE: all minions, all guilty.
"He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would fully suffice. This disgrace to civilization should be done away with at once. Heroism at command, senseless brutality, and all the loathsome nonsense that goes by the name of patriotism,how violently I hate all this, how despicable and ignoble war is; I would rather be torn to shreds than be part of so base an action! It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder."
~ ALBERT EINSTEIN
* Correction:
TWO (2) Canadian soldiers, Cpl. Nathan Cirillo, in front of the National War Memorial in Ottawa, and Warrant Officer Patrice Vincent, struck by an assailant’s car.
I believe you have answered their question – really no need to read further. Maybe they should stop reading the Quran for a moment and take a good look at themselves.
President Abdel Fattah el-Sisi of Egypt "lamented,” calling for no less than a religious revolution. Well, that's what you have, a "religious revolution," Holy War.
My own question is why does complicit, instigating America feel no shame, no responsibility?
CAMERON, HARPER*, ABBOTT, HOLLANDE: all minions, all guilty.
"He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would fully suffice. This disgrace to civilization should be done away with at once. Heroism at command, senseless brutality, and all the loathsome nonsense that goes by the name of patriotism,how violently I hate all this, how despicable and ignoble war is; I would rather be torn to shreds than be part of so base an action! It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder."
~ ALBERT EINSTEIN
* Correction:
TWO (2) Canadian soldiers, Cpl. Nathan Cirillo, in front of the National War Memorial in Ottawa, and Warrant Officer Patrice Vincent, struck by an assailant’s car.
Any religion that not just condones stoning but mandates it (as part of the Haji rituals) cannot be said to be free from violence.
4
A major mechanism leading to violence, whether in Muslim sectaries, or in Christianity, or in early 20th Century Europe, or in Nazism and Communism, was, and is, claims to universalism and dominance over heathen or infidel or the political other.
It was quelled in Christian Europe by disease, schism, prolonged and useless wars, and, ultimately, apathy. It was quelled in Nazi Germany by airborne devastation, occupation, and the death and punishment of its protagonists. It was quelled in Imperial Japan not only by military defeat, but by the necessity to avoid utter technological annihilation by thinking what had been "the unthinkable," surrender. It was quelled in the USSR by irresistible, impoverishing, economic and military pressure.
It was, thus, the determined resistance of "the other," which brought violence to an end.
This is the lesson to be learned. The application of major, uncompromising, economic pressure, and major, unrelenting, military force, has "changed minds," and may, one hopes, in future actually cause minds to change.
At the moment, a major source of violence is militant, "Islamistic," sectarian, Islam, whether Sunni or Shi'i, nonstate or state. Their universalistic claims, their local rule, and their physical existence and security must be countered, and soon. They must be made to understand what "asymmetrical warfare" really entails.
Arthur Taub, MD PhD
It was quelled in Christian Europe by disease, schism, prolonged and useless wars, and, ultimately, apathy. It was quelled in Nazi Germany by airborne devastation, occupation, and the death and punishment of its protagonists. It was quelled in Imperial Japan not only by military defeat, but by the necessity to avoid utter technological annihilation by thinking what had been "the unthinkable," surrender. It was quelled in the USSR by irresistible, impoverishing, economic and military pressure.
It was, thus, the determined resistance of "the other," which brought violence to an end.
This is the lesson to be learned. The application of major, uncompromising, economic pressure, and major, unrelenting, military force, has "changed minds," and may, one hopes, in future actually cause minds to change.
At the moment, a major source of violence is militant, "Islamistic," sectarian, Islam, whether Sunni or Shi'i, nonstate or state. Their universalistic claims, their local rule, and their physical existence and security must be countered, and soon. They must be made to understand what "asymmetrical warfare" really entails.
Arthur Taub, MD PhD
2
How can there not be questions about Islam when an Islamic nation that is an ALLY of the US, (to whom we give military aid ) and whose leaders are close friends withthe 2 US Bush presidents, sentences one of its citizens, liberal blogger named Raif Badawi, to 10 years in jail, a fine of $266000 and 1000 storkes of public flogging for the cybercrime of criticising the religious government?
The man recieved 50 stokes today in a pubic square and will recieve 50 stokes a day until 1000 have been inflicted. What do you think his back willl look like at the end of 20 days??
Had the Saudis found him Mr. Badawi of 'apostasy' (abandonment of one's religious faith) the man could have been executed.
Can anyone really think that Islam is not a religion to be questioned?
The man recieved 50 stokes today in a pubic square and will recieve 50 stokes a day until 1000 have been inflicted. What do you think his back willl look like at the end of 20 days??
Had the Saudis found him Mr. Badawi of 'apostasy' (abandonment of one's religious faith) the man could have been executed.
Can anyone really think that Islam is not a religion to be questioned?
5
Please, New York Times Comment section Editors, commission some studies on the nature of comments offered in selected articles and OpEds.
My view on comments that pour in following the most dramatic and horrifying of events whether in Paris, or Abu Ghraib, or Ferguson is that they are most useful as providing a cross section of a largely American public but not in providing thoughtful bases for further discussion.
Readers may say the same about this comment - so be it.
Only-NeverInSweden.blogspot.com (American, not Swedish)
My view on comments that pour in following the most dramatic and horrifying of events whether in Paris, or Abu Ghraib, or Ferguson is that they are most useful as providing a cross section of a largely American public but not in providing thoughtful bases for further discussion.
Readers may say the same about this comment - so be it.
Only-NeverInSweden.blogspot.com (American, not Swedish)
Here in Spain, the Basque autonomous parliament failed to pass a motion to condemn the murders at the headquarters of Charlie Hebdo because they couldn't agree on the text of the condemnation.
The reason was that the separatist party "Bildu" (still linked to ETA terrorists) wanted a different text for the condemnation than that proposed by the other parties. Bildu was afraid of offending those in the Basque country who still support terrorism and ETA if the condemnation mentioned the years of suffering we have endured for the same sort of mindless killing here in Spain. This even after ETA has (so far) stopped killing people.
People feared for the lives to speak out against ETA in many parts of the Basque country and I'm sure that the same must be true in many parts of the Islamic world if they speak out against Al Qaeda or ISIS. And I certainly won't blame all Basques for ETA, nor all Muslims or Islam for Al Qaeda and ISIS.
The reason was that the separatist party "Bildu" (still linked to ETA terrorists) wanted a different text for the condemnation than that proposed by the other parties. Bildu was afraid of offending those in the Basque country who still support terrorism and ETA if the condemnation mentioned the years of suffering we have endured for the same sort of mindless killing here in Spain. This even after ETA has (so far) stopped killing people.
People feared for the lives to speak out against ETA in many parts of the Basque country and I'm sure that the same must be true in many parts of the Islamic world if they speak out against Al Qaeda or ISIS. And I certainly won't blame all Basques for ETA, nor all Muslims or Islam for Al Qaeda and ISIS.
If Islam is so non violent, WHY are the Muslims so terroristic and violent? This bit about Islam being peaceful is not supported by the facts regarding terrorism and the fact that the majority of terrorist acts, murders, massacres, and mayhem, fist shaking and other evidence of violence are, in the majority, to be found among Muslims? The religion isn't to blame? Fooey! Yes it is. Very clearly it is, and no amount of fallacious cover up blather can hide the fact. It'll be a peaceful religion when there are no terrorist acts by Muslims and not before.
6
Could the problem be that hated towards other religions and people's not of the Muslim faith are taught in the Islamic madrasa's?
4
• Only a very small number of Muslims pin the blame directly on the religion itself.
“What has ISIS done that Muhammad did not do?” an outspoken atheist, Ahmed Harqan, recently asked...to argue that the problem of violence is inherent to Islam.
"The most detestable wickedness, the most horrid cruelties, and the greatest miseries that have afflicted the human race have had their origin in this thing called revelation, or revealed religion." ~ THOMAS PAINE
"Monotheistic religion is a plagiarism of a plagiarism of a hearsay of a hearsay, of ßan illusion of an illusion, extending all the way back to a fabrication of a few nonevents." ~ CHRISTOPHER HITCHENS
"Religions are all alike - founded upon fables and mythologies." ~ THOMAS JEFFERSON
"Shake off all fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a god, because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." ~ BENJAMIN FRANKLIN
The Quran and the Bible are the two most violent, inhumane, murderous, pornographic books in the history of fiction.
"Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man." ~ THOMAS PAINE
“What has ISIS done that Muhammad did not do?” an outspoken atheist, Ahmed Harqan, recently asked...to argue that the problem of violence is inherent to Islam.
"The most detestable wickedness, the most horrid cruelties, and the greatest miseries that have afflicted the human race have had their origin in this thing called revelation, or revealed religion." ~ THOMAS PAINE
"Monotheistic religion is a plagiarism of a plagiarism of a hearsay of a hearsay, of ßan illusion of an illusion, extending all the way back to a fabrication of a few nonevents." ~ CHRISTOPHER HITCHENS
"Religions are all alike - founded upon fables and mythologies." ~ THOMAS JEFFERSON
"Shake off all fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a god, because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." ~ BENJAMIN FRANKLIN
The Quran and the Bible are the two most violent, inhumane, murderous, pornographic books in the history of fiction.
"Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man." ~ THOMAS PAINE
4
Debating whether or not Islam is inherently violent seems an odd distraction when Islamist extremists are murdering innocents the world over in the name of Allah.
5
If Islam is not violent and if the acts of killing are political and not religious, why do the killers always seem to shout "Allahu Akbar" before they murder? Please, someone explain this to me, honestly.
4
Religion is the sum of our fears, the excuse for our failures.
It has always been so. Always it has bred and continues to breed fear, loathing and murderous intolerance.
One person's idea of god is some other person's blasphemy. In the ugly space between them throughout history we find rage, hate, ignorance and, on too many occasions, murder.
The Old Testament's prescription to free the Jews from Pharoh? Kill the first born. The Inquisition's prescription for non-believers? Burn them at the stake. The radical Budhism's prescription for the Moslems of Myanamar? Drive them out, kill them. The history between Moslems and Hindus in Kashmir? Kill each other. The chance for peace in Syria or Iraq? Murdered day in and day out by internal Islamic differences.
Whose fault is it? It is the fault of every human being unable or unwilling to loose the chains of fear that bind them to believe in something other than self-reliance.
So will the current episode end any time soon? No, it will not.
It has always been so. Always it has bred and continues to breed fear, loathing and murderous intolerance.
One person's idea of god is some other person's blasphemy. In the ugly space between them throughout history we find rage, hate, ignorance and, on too many occasions, murder.
The Old Testament's prescription to free the Jews from Pharoh? Kill the first born. The Inquisition's prescription for non-believers? Burn them at the stake. The radical Budhism's prescription for the Moslems of Myanamar? Drive them out, kill them. The history between Moslems and Hindus in Kashmir? Kill each other. The chance for peace in Syria or Iraq? Murdered day in and day out by internal Islamic differences.
Whose fault is it? It is the fault of every human being unable or unwilling to loose the chains of fear that bind them to believe in something other than self-reliance.
So will the current episode end any time soon? No, it will not.
2
Mr Fisher found that in most Muslim oriented countries violence is not typical. He also asked the question “Is Islam violent? I would say absolutely not,”
But if you are a non-muslim living in a Muslim dominated country and preaching anything but Islam you wouldn't believe Mr Fisher.
Mr Fish is a political scientist at the University of CA. He couldn't "quantify the correlation between Islam and violence" anymore than he could quantify the violence of Christianity and the Crucifixion.
But if you are a non-muslim living in a Muslim dominated country and preaching anything but Islam you wouldn't believe Mr Fisher.
Mr Fish is a political scientist at the University of CA. He couldn't "quantify the correlation between Islam and violence" anymore than he could quantify the violence of Christianity and the Crucifixion.
7
To the cartoonists & critics all over the world,stop cartooning ya criticizing the messengers like Prophet,Jesus,Budha,Hindu gods & goddesses worshiped by people as creators of this universe & lives all around us. They are beyond reach of anybody & let them be out of any parameters showered under freedom of rights. Use your freedom against all religious & political leaders who are trying to hijack the messages & twisting them to benefit their personal vendettas against any religion,class of people ya just spitting hateful venomous world's. Having said this,I would last like to warn swayed youth killing innocent people as it won't help them to solve the problems. Stay away from religious & political idiots who try to spread hate amongst people for divisions & rule you to ruin. We all are just human beings & our only moto should be to adopt & follow humanity to create peaceful societies.
When the Danish newspaper, published "insulting" cartoons about the Prophet around a decade ago, Muslims all over the world poured out of their mosques on successive Fridays, burned flags of allegedly offending countries, and threatened retaliation against the people who offended their sensibilities. If Muslims are truly outraged at the Charlie Hebdo atrocity or any of the multiple atrocities that occur weekly in the Middle East, let them pour out of their mosques, burn ISIS flags, and threaten the thugs who are defiling Islam. I would like to believe that Islam is a religion of peace, but all I see so far are senior people mouthing PR statements -- not actions by everyday Muslims.
6
The whole discussion can be boiled down to what Islam is and to what is done in the name if Islam.
1
Where is the Islamic reformation? How many denominations of Islam are there? Is it just shia vs. sunni? Aren't these both 'orthodox'? Do they read the Koran literally? We talk of moderate Muslims what does that mean? The need for a religious revolution within Islam sounds like a good idea. It would be great if a religious leader or two could emerge from that moderate Muslim majority to teach the world that moderate Muslims do not read the Koran literally and are not threatened by cartoons and do not seek to purge the world of Infidels. Who are the leaders of the Sunni and Shia each with tens of millions of followers? What exactly are they teaching? I haven't heard or read anything in the NY Times to enlighten me as to how most Muslims are led by moderate Imams that renounce the literal reading of the Koran. How these Imams are out there making sure the violent fundamentalists do not hijack their religion of Peace.
2
Such a disconnect between what we believe should be the acceptable civilised behaviour in the XXI century based on tolerance and respect for individual liberties, and the XI century absolutist agenda of islamists and other intolerant leaders throughout the world.
2
Ignorance seems to be the main objective for so many of these murderous terrorists. They kill children right and left just because they want to learn how to be educated. They shoot a defenseless child in the face because she wants to go to school.
They aim their hatred at those who are intellectuals and who prefer the pencil and the pen to the gun and the bomb.
People who are against education are trying to hold back the future. They believe that by living by rigid rules of some warped version of their religion they will be secure and happy and ignorance will keep the future at bay.
As long as there is this desire to destroy all learning and all ability to enter the future as it is going to be and not as one wants it to be, this violence, this murdering terrorism by ignorant Muslims will continue.
They aim their hatred at those who are intellectuals and who prefer the pencil and the pen to the gun and the bomb.
People who are against education are trying to hold back the future. They believe that by living by rigid rules of some warped version of their religion they will be secure and happy and ignorance will keep the future at bay.
As long as there is this desire to destroy all learning and all ability to enter the future as it is going to be and not as one wants it to be, this violence, this murdering terrorism by ignorant Muslims will continue.
3
To decide whether Islam is a religion that advocates intolerance and violence, one has to go to its roots: i.e., the Qur'an and the Hadiths (saying of Mohammed).
Any 'holy book' that considers all others as 'infidels' as Islam does and calls those who decide to break away from it 'apostates', encourages slavery, torture and death for infidels and apostates, will eventually justify extremism.
Please study the life of Jesus and His 'sermon on the mount' to see the vast chasm between what Mohammed taught and what Christ did....
Any 'holy book' that considers all others as 'infidels' as Islam does and calls those who decide to break away from it 'apostates', encourages slavery, torture and death for infidels and apostates, will eventually justify extremism.
Please study the life of Jesus and His 'sermon on the mount' to see the vast chasm between what Mohammed taught and what Christ did....
4
Most don't understand how sacred their Koran is, nor the beliefs of Islam even those who profess to be a follower of Mohammad. To be a Muslim all you have to do is declare Allah as the one true God without any prior training or requirements.
Defiling the Koran as was done by satire referring to the Koran as toilet paper is a grave sin against Allah. While it is true you cannot blame all Muslims for what a few radicals do among the billion +, it is part of their teachings that they must convert the world and can easily be wrongly understood to kill the non-believers.
The Koran is only the Koran when it is in its original language Arabic and all other language translations are erroneous. For example; In every verse in the Koran that talks of the non-believer, it derives from the use of "Al-" or "Al-la-dhina". This limits the verse and the command to a specific time and place in history and a specific group of people who were obstacles to the establishment of Islam in its emerging phase. Christians can compare this to Hebrew wars of the OT that has nothing to do with today.
Defiling the Koran as was done by satire referring to the Koran as toilet paper is a grave sin against Allah. While it is true you cannot blame all Muslims for what a few radicals do among the billion +, it is part of their teachings that they must convert the world and can easily be wrongly understood to kill the non-believers.
The Koran is only the Koran when it is in its original language Arabic and all other language translations are erroneous. For example; In every verse in the Koran that talks of the non-believer, it derives from the use of "Al-" or "Al-la-dhina". This limits the verse and the command to a specific time and place in history and a specific group of people who were obstacles to the establishment of Islam in its emerging phase. Christians can compare this to Hebrew wars of the OT that has nothing to do with today.
1
This article shows the censorship under which western journalism operates now. It is all excuses for Islamic violence. The truth is that this major religion, has been hijacked by a violent minority which now sets the tone and gives motive and direction to all Muslims.
Will the West stand up to it? Reading all the violence justifying arguments I doubt it.
Will the West stand up to it? Reading all the violence justifying arguments I doubt it.
4
In case you haven't noticed, God generally tells people what they want to hear.
6
Such as people believing God wants them to be president?
1
1993, the Cole, 9/11 ,Mumbai, Madrid, Shoe Bomber, Time Square, Boston Marathon, and now "We are Charlie" come to mind. The academic distinctions between Islam and the "hijacking" of Islamic principles fade when innocent people are slaughtered, for publishing cartoons, in the name of the Prophet.
4
Silence is tacit approval.
7
Honestly, terror in the name of religion is not about the values of any sect. For decades Christians in Northern Ireland killed each other, not over doctrinal differences, but for political and nationalistic reasons going back to the Battle of the Boyne. The protagonists were always identified as Catholics and Protestants first and foremost, and that is still how many casual observers see them.
The people who commit these atrocities in the name of Islam are really driven by other cultural and political factors; they just don't know it. Muslims in Europe do not face persecution because of their religion. They face it because they are from, at least overwhelming in France, North Africa. The same racist assumptions that often underlay imperialist justifications among Europeans are still overwhelmingly present, making it extremely difficult to assimilate these people into what is mistakenly assumed to be homogeneous societies -- even after decades of living together.
Let's stop focusing on whether Islam is any more violent than any other religion, because we should all recognize that there are terrorists among many religious sects, all who see themselves as somehow justified in their violence. By doing so, we relieve the innocent practitioner of suspicion by association, and focus it precisely where it belongs.
Let's recognize instead that whatever the terrorist's rationalization, murder for political reasons is never acceptable, and needs to be punished accordingly.
The people who commit these atrocities in the name of Islam are really driven by other cultural and political factors; they just don't know it. Muslims in Europe do not face persecution because of their religion. They face it because they are from, at least overwhelming in France, North Africa. The same racist assumptions that often underlay imperialist justifications among Europeans are still overwhelmingly present, making it extremely difficult to assimilate these people into what is mistakenly assumed to be homogeneous societies -- even after decades of living together.
Let's stop focusing on whether Islam is any more violent than any other religion, because we should all recognize that there are terrorists among many religious sects, all who see themselves as somehow justified in their violence. By doing so, we relieve the innocent practitioner of suspicion by association, and focus it precisely where it belongs.
Let's recognize instead that whatever the terrorist's rationalization, murder for political reasons is never acceptable, and needs to be punished accordingly.
35
'In his book, “Are Muslims Distinctive?,” [Fish] found that murder rates were substantially lower in Muslim-majority countries and instances of political violence were no more frequent.' ~ David D Kirkpatrick, NYT
Not so. On page 7 of 'Are Muslims Distinctive?' Fish states that he found that average murder rates in Muslim-majority countries were 2.4 per 100,000 compared to average murder rates in non-Muslim-majority countries which had an average murder rate of 7.5 per 100,000.
In civilized western-style democratic European countries, however, and in their ilk elsewhere in the world, the typical annual murder rate these days is around 1.8 per 100,000. Not of course in the Land of the Free, where gun deaths primarily amongst young, uneducated, African American males pushes the annual murder rate up to many times what it ought to be if the country weren't in thrall to the NRA and its God Fearing acolytes.
Nevertheless, in the UK, Australia, NZ, Iceland, Denmark where protestant, liberal, white, Anglo-Saxon values predominate, the (officially recorded) average murder rates are usually about 25% less than the average value in Muslim-majority countries stated by Fish. The same low murder rate is also the case in Roman Catholic Ireland, and in Japan, suggesting that the tight restriction of gun ownership plus a well-established nationwide system of schools for both sexes from at least 6 to 16 is crucial to low national murder rates.
Not so. On page 7 of 'Are Muslims Distinctive?' Fish states that he found that average murder rates in Muslim-majority countries were 2.4 per 100,000 compared to average murder rates in non-Muslim-majority countries which had an average murder rate of 7.5 per 100,000.
In civilized western-style democratic European countries, however, and in their ilk elsewhere in the world, the typical annual murder rate these days is around 1.8 per 100,000. Not of course in the Land of the Free, where gun deaths primarily amongst young, uneducated, African American males pushes the annual murder rate up to many times what it ought to be if the country weren't in thrall to the NRA and its God Fearing acolytes.
Nevertheless, in the UK, Australia, NZ, Iceland, Denmark where protestant, liberal, white, Anglo-Saxon values predominate, the (officially recorded) average murder rates are usually about 25% less than the average value in Muslim-majority countries stated by Fish. The same low murder rate is also the case in Roman Catholic Ireland, and in Japan, suggesting that the tight restriction of gun ownership plus a well-established nationwide system of schools for both sexes from at least 6 to 16 is crucial to low national murder rates.
4
In America, Moslems are laying low because for all its liberalism, American society and law enforcement agencies will not tolerate some of the Jihadi rhetoric heard in Europe. If the opportunity presented itself, Moslems would always impose their beliefs on others.
2
I recall as a youth in the deep South the whites around me denying any racism or harboring ill feeling toward "our southern Negroes". Yet when violence was acted out by fellow white southerners this large group, a majority, of self regarded "good whites" were silent and cowed into inaction. Reminds me of a large silent majority today in the Islamic community.
2
A very well done course should be required in both highschool and college entitled "On the Necessity of Atheism." The stupidities of religion with its heaven and hell and going to either one at the end of natural life is infantile. It's akin to the child's belief in santa clause. If you be good santa will bring you a gift, if not santa will not bring you a gift. Once upon a time, approximately 2 1/2 billion years ago, in a primoridial ocean, an atomic nucleic acid protein replicated itself. From there all else began. It should be further noted that in an experiment in the 1950's life was created from inorganic material in a vacuum test tube environment duplicating the primordial ocean with methane and other poisonous gases. Electricity was put through this inorganic hodge podge and the basic amino acid building blocks of life appeared and after several days later more complex proteins appeared. Think evolution and read an excellent first book on this entitled The Wellsprings of Life by Isaac Asimov, a biochemist and well known scientist, as well as a science fiction writer.
1
It is not about religion, it is about power.
There must be a global effort to stop funding those advocating theocracy.
Without funding, they become impotent.
It had better be done soon, because technology will soon provide deadlier weapons to the extremists who will not hesitate to use them.
There must be a global effort to stop funding those advocating theocracy.
Without funding, they become impotent.
It had better be done soon, because technology will soon provide deadlier weapons to the extremists who will not hesitate to use them.
I have seen, heard and experienced enough of Islam's followers to conclude
that our belief in freedom of religion is their ticket to practice intolerance
of anyone who do does follow Islam. We are incompatible. Period.
that our belief in freedom of religion is their ticket to practice intolerance
of anyone who do does follow Islam. We are incompatible. Period.
2
One cannot overlook the history of Islam -- it was built on armed conquest. The "glory" of the armies forcing conversion on unbelievers is still praised. That said, the Koran probably does not espouse violence any more than the Bible.
I suggest that Islam does not promote violence, but the history of Islam does. Hopefully the clerics can make a compelling case that the 21st Century is different than the 8th Century, and the liturgy in the Koran that calls for peace and respect is what should govern believers' actions.
I suggest that Islam does not promote violence, but the history of Islam does. Hopefully the clerics can make a compelling case that the 21st Century is different than the 8th Century, and the liturgy in the Koran that calls for peace and respect is what should govern believers' actions.
2
Many groups have faced alienation, resentment, prejudice. Not all have taken to insane, irrational violence. It's a feeble apology, er, reason.
2
I think it is good debate is had on these issues but I think most people have already drawn their ideological lines and it is very difficult to get them out of it.I also think we have a lack of democracy in the West not just the Middle East in the sense that we are ruled by "interests" these "interests" have no record of being concerned about these issues at all.It simply does not matter so much to them if some people get killed or oppressed or discriminated against.All they really desire is quiet and for people to be passive.Like this idea that our governments are concerned with the safety and well being of citizens is shown to be neither historically nor currently accurate.They are only concerned with their own safety and how they can maintain and increase their power often in service of those "interests" which is not you, despite your believe that you are important.
The reporter of this article says that Christians struggle to explain Jesus' apparent approval of VIOLENCE when he said: “I come not to bring peace, but a sword.” I'm a little surprised how quickly the reporter took this phrase out of context as a way to show that Christianity may not be any better than Islam.
When you look at the context of the phrase in the Gospel of Matthew, Jesus is using "sword" as a METAPHOR. He is telling Jewish believers that if they follow him, they could cause division within their own families because Jesus was criticizing the Jewish religious leaders of the day. Jesus said that his followers must follow him and God even before their own families.
In fact, in the Gospel of Luke (12:51), Jesus says: "Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division." Jesus also told his followers not to use an actual SWORD to promote Christianity. When his follower Peter did use an actual SWORD, Jesus told him to stop it.
When you look at the context of the phrase in the Gospel of Matthew, Jesus is using "sword" as a METAPHOR. He is telling Jewish believers that if they follow him, they could cause division within their own families because Jesus was criticizing the Jewish religious leaders of the day. Jesus said that his followers must follow him and God even before their own families.
In fact, in the Gospel of Luke (12:51), Jesus says: "Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division." Jesus also told his followers not to use an actual SWORD to promote Christianity. When his follower Peter did use an actual SWORD, Jesus told him to stop it.
1
Time for responsible peace loving Muslims to reign in the nihilists or risk having their their religion hijacked and mutated into a scourge. Western efforts at "nation building" have failed.
2
'Religion, he argued, was “just a veneer” for anger'
Wow, what a monumental and false rationalization. Sounds like some people still aren't coming to terms with reality.
Just like the crazy Christians who bomb abortion clinics and murder doctors and nurses, these Muslim terrorists' beliefs lie at the heart of their motivation.
Wow, what a monumental and false rationalization. Sounds like some people still aren't coming to terms with reality.
Just like the crazy Christians who bomb abortion clinics and murder doctors and nurses, these Muslim terrorists' beliefs lie at the heart of their motivation.
3
Unfortunately, we are at war, they are at war. Sunni and Sikh muslims massacring each others, as well as Christians (including Coptics) and Jews. Very sad. If we are under attack, what does this imply about our need for surveillance, profiling, less tolerance of the intolerant? Honest discussions must take place about what is occurring. Progressives and Conservatives alike, know that compassion without honesty is hypocritical.
The article is written by an apologist for Islam. Can the author explain why Muslim countries or Muslim majority countries inherently built violence into the system, why Muslim countries go into dictatorship and why sooner and later muslim majority counties eventually declare them as Muslim-counties and impose Muslim laws on nonMuslim. You do not have to go too far back in the history. just look at Pakistan and Bangladesh. let us suppose that Muslims felt alienated in India, so they created Pakistan. What became of their country? Chaos, lawlessness, killing of children and women and sponsorship of terrorism all over the world - India, UK, France, US and their own country! Bangladesh started as a Muslim majority democracy but soon went into dictatorship after ruthlessly murdering their own father of the nation and eventually officially became a Muslim country, where Hindus and Christians are routinely prosecuted. Why would Muslims be alienated in their
own country?
We can always cherry pick and justify that Islam is a religion of peace. It is not and it does not even tolerate its own criticism. And Quran dictates its followers to unconditionally do so.
own country?
We can always cherry pick and justify that Islam is a religion of peace. It is not and it does not even tolerate its own criticism. And Quran dictates its followers to unconditionally do so.
2
As this article states - Muhammed himself committed enough acts of terror that no liberal muslim can defend.
And what proof is shown when a muslim leader tells the world news that Islam is a religion of peace? There have been too many classic cases where Islamic websites have peace displayed on their English website, and terror on the arabic side.
Actions speak louder than words.
And what proof is shown when a muslim leader tells the world news that Islam is a religion of peace? There have been too many classic cases where Islamic websites have peace displayed on their English website, and terror on the arabic side.
Actions speak louder than words.
3
All these terrorist groups are granting interviews, posing for pictures and advertising for recruits so the governments know exactly where they are.
Just as with everything else in the world, all you have to do is look for who is making money off of not stopping them and you will find the real culprit behind terrorism.
Just as with everything else in the world, all you have to do is look for who is making money off of not stopping them and you will find the real culprit behind terrorism.
1
As the numbered of people who follow Islam are so great, the amount who are so extremely fundamental (radicalised) Ian's only a small percentage. Yes, the Imam's should shout out more that what these mostly disenfranchised young men are doing by joining there "death cults". Instead of hatred and intolerance, we as a supposedly enlightened western civilisation should be getting to these youths before they get overseas and deradicalise them. Don't just throw them into prison or detention centres where their hate will fester.
It actually reminds me of the USA in your southern states, back during your civil rights period - you had your extreme fundamentalists too, you still have, they wear white hats that covers their faces and long robes and they are cowards, like ISIL who also cover their faces. Not all Christians believed in lynching, because the poor African Americans who were being lynched, etc where also Christian. Bush Jnr and Cheney - how many innocent lives on their hands due to a war based on a lie? How does that feed into today's Middle Eastern conflicts? Fundamentalism was never quite so embraced by youth, worldwide, till now. Is it just because of social media, or because youth looks at the sins off the past and thinks this new way may be better?
It actually reminds me of the USA in your southern states, back during your civil rights period - you had your extreme fundamentalists too, you still have, they wear white hats that covers their faces and long robes and they are cowards, like ISIL who also cover their faces. Not all Christians believed in lynching, because the poor African Americans who were being lynched, etc where also Christian. Bush Jnr and Cheney - how many innocent lives on their hands due to a war based on a lie? How does that feed into today's Middle Eastern conflicts? Fundamentalism was never quite so embraced by youth, worldwide, till now. Is it just because of social media, or because youth looks at the sins off the past and thinks this new way may be better?
Its well documented fact in history that, Muhammad waged wars, had multiple wives, had multiple concubines. had written down the equality of woman hearing from God, that she is not equal to men.
The followers of Islam as written in Quran as told by God to Muhammad, follow his footprints, Nothing special in debating the interpretation of the verse.
The followers of Islam as written in Quran as told by God to Muhammad, follow his footprints, Nothing special in debating the interpretation of the verse.
1
Islam was born in violence and spread through violence. Much of the koran teaches violence. I don't need to defend christianity, especially revelations which really has nothing to do with religion and is but one of many similar stories of the times. Islam is dumber than christianity which is really hard to accomplish.
2
The Book of Joshua promoting violence? Where are the Joshuans running around the world slaughtering people?
Ask the Christians in Egypt about the Brotherhood's nonviolence when they took over.
Who are you protecting?
Ask the Christians in Egypt about the Brotherhood's nonviolence when they took over.
Who are you protecting?
3
Being the last of the 'great powers' the United States had a great responsibility, which it has perhaps not been up to. ScottW's comment expresses it best :-
"But closer to home, we democratically elected Bush/Cheney who took this country to war based upon a lie killing tens of thousands of Muslims. How many? Who knows, since Rummy told us we don't count deaths. Pretty brazen conduct.... most in this Country feel no responsibility for what Bush/Cheney did. We felt powerless to stop them, even though a majority re-elected them. Most Americans would be deeply offended if a foreigner pointed a finger at them saying, "You are to blame for all of those deaths."
The problem lies, in essence, in that aspect of all religions (Islam & Christianity included) that consider adherents superior and non-believers as targets for proselyting and conversion. Through measures like inducement, ostracizing or punishment for blasphemy, attempts are made to keep the "flock" both stronger and together. What requires an atheist to know why the Prophet or Jesus are held sacred ? And how can anyone in today's world believe in 'promised virgins in the hereafter' except through brainwashing ?
On a lighter note, Egyptian President Sisi is ISIS spelt backwards. Let us hope he leads the movement for a reform in Islam and helps resolve this enormous problem.
"But closer to home, we democratically elected Bush/Cheney who took this country to war based upon a lie killing tens of thousands of Muslims. How many? Who knows, since Rummy told us we don't count deaths. Pretty brazen conduct.... most in this Country feel no responsibility for what Bush/Cheney did. We felt powerless to stop them, even though a majority re-elected them. Most Americans would be deeply offended if a foreigner pointed a finger at them saying, "You are to blame for all of those deaths."
The problem lies, in essence, in that aspect of all religions (Islam & Christianity included) that consider adherents superior and non-believers as targets for proselyting and conversion. Through measures like inducement, ostracizing or punishment for blasphemy, attempts are made to keep the "flock" both stronger and together. What requires an atheist to know why the Prophet or Jesus are held sacred ? And how can anyone in today's world believe in 'promised virgins in the hereafter' except through brainwashing ?
On a lighter note, Egyptian President Sisi is ISIS spelt backwards. Let us hope he leads the movement for a reform in Islam and helps resolve this enormous problem.
Wrong, wrong, and wrong again.
It's not about religion, colonialism, politics or racism, though all of these and more provide convenient structures and rationalizations.
The placid middle class lives of these concerned readers provides absolutely no insight into the actions of frustrated young males.
Under a slightly different set of circumstances, these brazen murderers would have been career criminals, police officers, volunteers with Medecins Sans Frontieres, or anything that promises a life worth living. Instead, the combination of limited alternatives and the absence of a restraining social structure called community combined to send them down the worst of paths.
Until we understand this fundamental principle, killings both mass and targeted will continue unabated.
It's not about religion, colonialism, politics or racism, though all of these and more provide convenient structures and rationalizations.
The placid middle class lives of these concerned readers provides absolutely no insight into the actions of frustrated young males.
Under a slightly different set of circumstances, these brazen murderers would have been career criminals, police officers, volunteers with Medecins Sans Frontieres, or anything that promises a life worth living. Instead, the combination of limited alternatives and the absence of a restraining social structure called community combined to send them down the worst of paths.
Until we understand this fundamental principle, killings both mass and targeted will continue unabated.
There are no innocent lambs among the Peoples of the Book. In all of these religions-- Judaism, Christianity and Islam-- the true pacifists are tiny minorities who have often been persecuted for their pacifism. Let us all stop this hypocritical "Holier than thou" judgment of Islam. Everyone needs to lay their weapons down.
It certainly seems true that the oppressed can lash out in a variety of ways, however there are many who are alienated and resentful, but do not lash out with violence. Mississippi (many poor right wing Christians) and New Mexico (poor Catholics) are two of the poorest states in the country, but mass killings are rare. The image in this column of young boys reading the Quran in "school" is interesting. Do they also learn world history, math, language, play sports? If all they are learn comes from the Quran, that may have something to do with it. Add poverty and no hope of a future...
1
The murder rate is likely lower because much of the killing is legalized by the practice of Islam.
2
When the murders always seem to yell "God is Great" or praise the Prophet one has to suspect that they are killing in the name of their religion.
2
The counter-struggle against Islamist violence and terrorism necessitates confronting extremist hierarchies all the way from the first sermon or Facebook or YouTube post to the attempt at murder. In addition, it necessitates empowering humane, tolerant elements in education, media and religious leadership. It requires effective law enforcement at the most local, grassroots level. But it also requires Western nations to reorient their foreign policies at the highest levels, to reassess diplomatic relations with those nations that maintain educational systems and spiritual leaderships that breed Islamist intolerance and violence, and to use all the diplomatic and economic leverage they can muster to marginalize those dangers and to bolster more moderate forces.
2
Islam is no more violent than other religions. The amount of warmongering found in the Bible far exceeds that in the Koran. Every religion (and no religion) has its fanatics whose perverted understanding of their faith supports their disruptive acts.
The time has come for the Muslim community to police their own or face continuing erroneous characterizations. Obviously the vast majority of Muslims are law abiding but if they allow the vocal minority to seem to represent the community a backlash of major proportions will ensue. The recent terror episodes are yet another example of the simple fact that gun control only benefits criminals and terrorists. Would things be different if the French law abiding citizens were armed? I believe the time has come to honor the right of every person to protect their own life.
1
Yes, there are violent verses in the Christian bible just like the Quran BUT we just don't seem to be acting out on them. Killing For Christ??? I don't think so. Beheading non believers? Westerners believe that one can believe anything they want and keep their lives.
It's sad but it seems Islam condones violence as a means to an end.
It's sad but it seems Islam condones violence as a means to an end.
2
The question we should be asking isn't whether Islam or any other religion is "inherently violent"; you can find justification for acts of violence (yes, even Buddhism, look at what's happening in Burma).
The question we should be asking is why, in the 21st century, Arab states (or any states) enforce blasphemy laws. When you send the message that criticism of your specific faith is an unforgivable offense, you shouldn't be surprised if some people pick up guns to enforce that, vigilante-style, and if they do so even beyond your borders. (Lest we forget, it's what happened throughout the Christian world over and over again up until the 1800s, and to be honest is still seen in a few places.) The Islamic "reformation" the world needs can be boiled down to a simple idea: coming to a recognition that questions of blasphemy and apostasy should be between an individual believer and Allah, not something to be enforced by self-appointed earthly arbiters at gunpoint or in a jail cell.
The question we should be asking is why, in the 21st century, Arab states (or any states) enforce blasphemy laws. When you send the message that criticism of your specific faith is an unforgivable offense, you shouldn't be surprised if some people pick up guns to enforce that, vigilante-style, and if they do so even beyond your borders. (Lest we forget, it's what happened throughout the Christian world over and over again up until the 1800s, and to be honest is still seen in a few places.) The Islamic "reformation" the world needs can be boiled down to a simple idea: coming to a recognition that questions of blasphemy and apostasy should be between an individual believer and Allah, not something to be enforced by self-appointed earthly arbiters at gunpoint or in a jail cell.
153
Islam has violent tenants, as do must religions, including Christianity. Read either the Old or New Testament if you don't believe that.
However, the real culprit is religion itself. If you are willing to belief in nonsensical stories of magical power and the certainty of "given" rules of morality and conduct, then you will be more susceptible to the violent imprecations contained in "holy" books and from imams and priests, and will weigh anti-social behavior as being less wrong than disobedience to a mythical "all-powerful" entity. If you don't honor reason, science, and empiricism, but instead are willing to hand over your decision-making processes to "faith," then you are a meek vessel for the avaricious use by others in pursuit of their evil callings.
Most religionists are not violent and dangerous (some are), but most of them idealize in an infantile manner the after-life, thus logically (by those principles) reducing the importance of human life and human good. Rather, can we strive for reason, evidence, and a rejection of "faith"? Let's do so for mankind's sake.
However, the real culprit is religion itself. If you are willing to belief in nonsensical stories of magical power and the certainty of "given" rules of morality and conduct, then you will be more susceptible to the violent imprecations contained in "holy" books and from imams and priests, and will weigh anti-social behavior as being less wrong than disobedience to a mythical "all-powerful" entity. If you don't honor reason, science, and empiricism, but instead are willing to hand over your decision-making processes to "faith," then you are a meek vessel for the avaricious use by others in pursuit of their evil callings.
Most religionists are not violent and dangerous (some are), but most of them idealize in an infantile manner the after-life, thus logically (by those principles) reducing the importance of human life and human good. Rather, can we strive for reason, evidence, and a rejection of "faith"? Let's do so for mankind's sake.
2
Somehow state sponsored terrorism is given a pass as it is perceived to have an air of respectability. Obviously state sponsored terrorism did not start with the invasion of Iraq in 2003, but as it should be needless to say the repercussions of "Shock and Awe", the definition of terrorism, are still being felt. By some accounts there have been up to 1.4 million deaths resulting from the US invasion not to mention the wounded, be grieved, the property destruction and the rending apart of the social structure.
2
The problem with combining church and state is that both are subject to interpretation, but it is mostly true with religion. In the U.S., laws like the 2nd amendment are interpreted differently by those who want it to mean a certain thing, but we do have courts to settle the questions that arise.
Religion is open to anyone's interpretation - which is at it should be. Problems arise when too many accept the version espoused by someone else. Too many don't want to think, or are afraid to think, for themselves, even though belief is a very personal matter. In countries where there are religious laws, expression may not be allowed, but the belief is still up to the individual. Most are satisfied with following whatever ideas are prevalent in their community or accepted by their family or tradition or ... whatever. At any rate, they are followers and are not that knowledgeable about the "true" meaning of their scriptures. This is universal. And there are always those who are ready to take advantage of this situation.
As it turns out, the scriptures from many different religions come from very ancient sources, perhaps the same one/s and have the same basic principles. But we don't look at what we have in common. We look at what separates us. Until we earnestly want to find our connections with one another, we will continue to do what we're doing.
Religion is open to anyone's interpretation - which is at it should be. Problems arise when too many accept the version espoused by someone else. Too many don't want to think, or are afraid to think, for themselves, even though belief is a very personal matter. In countries where there are religious laws, expression may not be allowed, but the belief is still up to the individual. Most are satisfied with following whatever ideas are prevalent in their community or accepted by their family or tradition or ... whatever. At any rate, they are followers and are not that knowledgeable about the "true" meaning of their scriptures. This is universal. And there are always those who are ready to take advantage of this situation.
As it turns out, the scriptures from many different religions come from very ancient sources, perhaps the same one/s and have the same basic principles. But we don't look at what we have in common. We look at what separates us. Until we earnestly want to find our connections with one another, we will continue to do what we're doing.
The key is separation of church and state. While the idea is foreign to a vast majority in the Islamic world, it is the only way to curb extremists and dictators from using religion as a means to keeping or gaining power.
2
I would like to believe that Islam as a religion is just as good & bad as any other religion. Also, just as before when we have had figures (like Hitler) who possessed the unnatural ability to get people to set aside rationality and compassion, we have figures like Baghdadi and scores like him who are able to take advantage of disaffected individuals to further their grievances and quest for power. It is likely that the strong "us vs them" mindset cultivated by islamic prosyletizers makes it too easy for radicals to seize control of the conversation. In the end, until the moderates seize control of the conversation, we are not likely to see the beginning of the end of this radical movement.
I have got to commend President Abdel Fattah el-Sisi for calling a spade a spade and daring to speak clearly.
Reform and tolerance building can only be accomplished if it comes from the very inside of the islamic world; but for that, the religous establishment must realize that the promotion and advocating of violence among extremist sectors is not just something aimed against the western "infidels", but against everybody christian, muslim, jew, budist, etc. that doesn't think like those extremists.
Reform and tolerance building can only be accomplished if it comes from the very inside of the islamic world; but for that, the religous establishment must realize that the promotion and advocating of violence among extremist sectors is not just something aimed against the western "infidels", but against everybody christian, muslim, jew, budist, etc. that doesn't think like those extremists.
1
But they struggle to explain away approving passages about violence in other religious texts, such as the book of Joshua in the Old Testament, the Book of Revelation in the New Testament, or the statement attributed to Jesus by the Gospel writer Matthew that “I come not to bring peace, but a sword.”
What a fatuous argument. The issue isn't what words appear in the texts, the issue is what people are doing -- wanton slaughter and murder for example -- allegedly because of the words and the texts. Muslims are slaughtering each other -- and us -- specifically because of their religious beliefs. In that behavior, they are unique in today's world. The Catholics and Protestants (pace Northern Ireland ...) got over that sort of barbarism five hundred years ago. (And that foolish Professor Fish who says Islam is not violent? A perfect example of everything wrong with academia today.)
What a fatuous argument. The issue isn't what words appear in the texts, the issue is what people are doing -- wanton slaughter and murder for example -- allegedly because of the words and the texts. Muslims are slaughtering each other -- and us -- specifically because of their religious beliefs. In that behavior, they are unique in today's world. The Catholics and Protestants (pace Northern Ireland ...) got over that sort of barbarism five hundred years ago. (And that foolish Professor Fish who says Islam is not violent? A perfect example of everything wrong with academia today.)
2
I feel that those interviewed are making excuses for this violence. Excuses that are not acceptable. They are saying it's not clerics or Islam, but the disenfranchised youth that feel their government is not keeping their promise, whatever that was.
We have many young people around the world that expect something they are not getting. Are those unemployed in Italy or Greece engaged in suicide bombings across EU? Are they raping the locals that are not a part of their religion? Are they demanding that we all eat pasta or else?
And how is it that the judicial arm in the countries were Muslims are in the majority and Islam is infused into the government can claim one breaks the law if they question the violence of ISIS, but then refuse to even put rapists and murderers on trial?
The real problem isn't that the government isn't listening, it's that the government is creating laws and punishing based on what you say or do and how those actions are condemned by some cleric.
These terrorists may be using Islam to kill, but the clerics and governments are as well, and they are quoting the Quran to do so. I have no patience for those that take us back to the middle ages and say christians killed non-believers. It is 2014. And I don't recall any terrorist organization in the last hundreds of years killing those that don't believe in Jesus.
It is those clerics that espose EITHER violence or intolerance that must be arrested and tried in an international court.
We have many young people around the world that expect something they are not getting. Are those unemployed in Italy or Greece engaged in suicide bombings across EU? Are they raping the locals that are not a part of their religion? Are they demanding that we all eat pasta or else?
And how is it that the judicial arm in the countries were Muslims are in the majority and Islam is infused into the government can claim one breaks the law if they question the violence of ISIS, but then refuse to even put rapists and murderers on trial?
The real problem isn't that the government isn't listening, it's that the government is creating laws and punishing based on what you say or do and how those actions are condemned by some cleric.
These terrorists may be using Islam to kill, but the clerics and governments are as well, and they are quoting the Quran to do so. I have no patience for those that take us back to the middle ages and say christians killed non-believers. It is 2014. And I don't recall any terrorist organization in the last hundreds of years killing those that don't believe in Jesus.
It is those clerics that espose EITHER violence or intolerance that must be arrested and tried in an international court.
4
History is replete with examples of Islamic intolerance across many parts of the globe. It's inability to coexist with other faiths has been demonstrated repeatedly.
While the thinkers can quote chapter and verse of examples in the Koran teaching of inclusion and non violence, other parts also can be quoted that demonstrate and justify intolerance. It is these verses quoted by many imams and teachers that provide the ideological underpinnings for intolerance.
Till the Muslim polity globally does not forcefully renounce these intolerant intepretations as being unIslamic we will continue to face the intolerance protagonists have shown. In addition they have to accept culpability of their actions and become responsible for their behavior.
The article is replete with quotes that pin the blame on external issues and factors without acknowledging ones responsiblity to their own behavior. Herein one gets sick and tired of the excuses that others are responsible for their problems and they are just victims.
Time these extremely articulate proselytizers accept responsibility for the actions of people of their faith and did something to change it.
While the thinkers can quote chapter and verse of examples in the Koran teaching of inclusion and non violence, other parts also can be quoted that demonstrate and justify intolerance. It is these verses quoted by many imams and teachers that provide the ideological underpinnings for intolerance.
Till the Muslim polity globally does not forcefully renounce these intolerant intepretations as being unIslamic we will continue to face the intolerance protagonists have shown. In addition they have to accept culpability of their actions and become responsible for their behavior.
The article is replete with quotes that pin the blame on external issues and factors without acknowledging ones responsiblity to their own behavior. Herein one gets sick and tired of the excuses that others are responsible for their problems and they are just victims.
Time these extremely articulate proselytizers accept responsibility for the actions of people of their faith and did something to change it.
2
Organised religion: that is the problem. It is not limited to the Muslim religion, especially compared to the other two "majors" that have their roots in the same small area of the world, i.e. the Middle East. Judaism with its Old Testament, Christianity with its New Testament and the Muslim religion with its Quran: all three have spawned violence and death over the centuries in the name of God. All can hide behind non violent doctrine...but all include thinking that can also be used as the excuse for violence, especially over each other.
The Crusades, the Final Solution, witch burning, an Eye for an Eye, symbolic beheading, generall persecution, suppression and indescriminant killing of their perceived enemies in the name of one's God. None of these religions are innocent.
The problem, like it or not, admit it or not, is organized religion, used by violent men as an excuse to dominate and destroy their fellow men of different beleifs, especially the three that have their religious roots in that common violent part of the world.
When death is a way of life, death and violence must happen. The Good Books says so, somewhere, if one wants them to. It makes no difference which of three Good Books you use.
The Crusades, the Final Solution, witch burning, an Eye for an Eye, symbolic beheading, generall persecution, suppression and indescriminant killing of their perceived enemies in the name of one's God. None of these religions are innocent.
The problem, like it or not, admit it or not, is organized religion, used by violent men as an excuse to dominate and destroy their fellow men of different beleifs, especially the three that have their religious roots in that common violent part of the world.
When death is a way of life, death and violence must happen. The Good Books says so, somewhere, if one wants them to. It makes no difference which of three Good Books you use.
"Over a 15-year period ending in 2008, Islamist militants were responsible for 60 percent of high-casualty terrorist bombings, his study found, but almost all were concentrated in just a handful of Muslim-majority countries in the context of larger conflicts that were occurring — places like Afghanistan after the American invasion or Algeria after the military takeover."
“Is Islam violent? I would say absolutely not,” Mr. Fish said in an interview. “There is very little empirical evidence that Islam is violent.”
Fish has it wrong. 60% is a pretty high number, and that's jut through 2008! How about events from 2009-2014? Not a good picture regarding Islamic violence and puzzling that Fish either ignores this or hasn't factored it in to his opinion. Islam has a serious problem and the moderates must speak out louder and continuously against violence to at least prevent impressionable youths from taking the wrong path.
“Is Islam violent? I would say absolutely not,” Mr. Fish said in an interview. “There is very little empirical evidence that Islam is violent.”
Fish has it wrong. 60% is a pretty high number, and that's jut through 2008! How about events from 2009-2014? Not a good picture regarding Islamic violence and puzzling that Fish either ignores this or hasn't factored it in to his opinion. Islam has a serious problem and the moderates must speak out louder and continuously against violence to at least prevent impressionable youths from taking the wrong path.
3
"M. Steven Fish, a political scientist at the University of California, Berkeley, sought to quantify the correlation between Islam and violence. In his book, “Are Muslims Distinctive?,” he found that murder rates were substantially lower in Muslim-majority countries and instances of political violence were no more frequent."
Yeah, folks, don't let the facts, or the fact-seekers and fact-finders like M. Steve Fish, get in the way of your rush to judgement and cries for retribution.
Yeah, folks, don't let the facts, or the fact-seekers and fact-finders like M. Steve Fish, get in the way of your rush to judgement and cries for retribution.
1
The leaders of this religion are the only ones who can stop this. They need to issue some new guidelines so that their religion doesn't continue to produce fanatical fundamentalist killers. Islam needs to be brought into the 21st century in regards to its position on women and its position on what they call non-believers, aka those who don't follow their prophet. Pope Francis is setting an excellent example of how to modernize an ancient faith. Islam isn't all that ancient, but the world cannot afford the continued assembly line production of jihadists coming from this relatively new faith.
81
Yet a leader of Shia Islam, Ayatollah Khomeini, let a contract on the life of author Salman Rushdie. If the highest status people of a religion condone murder, there is a long way to go.
6
There must be a move from within the Muslim community to delineate. Anything else would be silent complicity.
4
Brilliant article!
1
Maybe it is time to realize that all religions should be kept out of politics and government. You can't have Sharia law carried out by the state. You can't have Catholic theology intervening in medical and reproductive issues. Religion should be practiced in the home and in mosques, churches or temples. In the public sphere it should be unspoken.
21
Why do so many people associate Islam with terrorists? For starters, we need only look at the people who are committing the vast majority of terrorist attacks around the world. They are Muslims, or at least so they claim. Then there is the shouting of the name of God at the end of every murder spree. That's not something we see Jews, Christians, Hindus doing. If Islam is the religion of peace as it claims, why are we not seeing outrage and protests in the streets around the world against those who would desecrate and defile the teachings of the Holy prophet of of Islam? The silence speaks volumes. Until that changes we can only assume that these terrorist activities committed in the name of Islam are approved by its followers. Actions speak louder than words.
24
The NYT overnight posted a video of one suspect in his "rapping" music phase and he basically stated there was no greater goal in life than to die as martyr for Islam. First question: What attracts young men to this philosophy?
Secondly, I question where my growing hatred of Islam is coming from -- even setting aside Sept. 2001, their treatment of women and gays, etc., -- but to answer my own question, I think it is because I read and hear nothing from their leadership against the atrocities 5% of their following commit.
Imagine if 5% of Catholics built armies, slaughtered people, blew up Manhattan and London -- I simply refuse to believe Rome would just sit there twiddling thumbs and counting collection basket cash each Sunday.
Where is Islam's leadership and why do they do just sit there?
Secondly, I question where my growing hatred of Islam is coming from -- even setting aside Sept. 2001, their treatment of women and gays, etc., -- but to answer my own question, I think it is because I read and hear nothing from their leadership against the atrocities 5% of their following commit.
Imagine if 5% of Catholics built armies, slaughtered people, blew up Manhattan and London -- I simply refuse to believe Rome would just sit there twiddling thumbs and counting collection basket cash each Sunday.
Where is Islam's leadership and why do they do just sit there?
22
You have not been reading the newspaper articles about Muslims condemning the works of the extremists. Nor have you read the history of the Crusades.
Islam does not have central leadership.
Once upon a time, 5% or more of Catholics did embark on religious wars, some of which were aimed at Muslims and Jews, and some of which involved other Christian sects that were perceived as heretical.
For a taste of what some Muslims might feel when aspects of their religion are satirized, consider what the now-gone (Catholic) Stephen Colbert ultra-conservative character said to an Anglican cleric who was a guest on his show, which was basically that the Church of England and its affiliates exist only because King Henry VIII couldn't keep his pants zipped. The comment was quite funny, and the cleric laughed, as well. I would imagine that some Protestants were not amused by it, but it didn't provoke terrorist attacks. And yes, I know that Protestantism, which has its own violent past, exists because Martin Luther dared to challenge the near-universal authority of the Catholic Church.
Perhaps what is needed is for some brave Islamic cleric (or group of clerics, in disguise, if necessary) to introduce the wider Muslim world to the notion of not taking oneself or others too seriously.
As a woman, I would add that feeling sorry for those who consider themselves put upon is much more difficult when one reads of Islamic repression of and injustice toward women. Ditto reports of Muslim religious-law-enforcement street patrols and religious indoctrination at public schools in the UK. Tolerance should be a two-way street.
Once upon a time, 5% or more of Catholics did embark on religious wars, some of which were aimed at Muslims and Jews, and some of which involved other Christian sects that were perceived as heretical.
For a taste of what some Muslims might feel when aspects of their religion are satirized, consider what the now-gone (Catholic) Stephen Colbert ultra-conservative character said to an Anglican cleric who was a guest on his show, which was basically that the Church of England and its affiliates exist only because King Henry VIII couldn't keep his pants zipped. The comment was quite funny, and the cleric laughed, as well. I would imagine that some Protestants were not amused by it, but it didn't provoke terrorist attacks. And yes, I know that Protestantism, which has its own violent past, exists because Martin Luther dared to challenge the near-universal authority of the Catholic Church.
Perhaps what is needed is for some brave Islamic cleric (or group of clerics, in disguise, if necessary) to introduce the wider Muslim world to the notion of not taking oneself or others too seriously.
As a woman, I would add that feeling sorry for those who consider themselves put upon is much more difficult when one reads of Islamic repression of and injustice toward women. Ditto reports of Muslim religious-law-enforcement street patrols and religious indoctrination at public schools in the UK. Tolerance should be a two-way street.
2
How different is it that the poor and downtrodden with little hope in the Muslim world strike out through Religion and those in America unable to face changes strike out too.
When we fail to study and learn and use comments as facts then how different are we?
When we fail to study and learn and use comments as facts then how different are we?
We cannot claim that a RELIGION or a TEXT is to blame. There are many many many different interpretations of the same text--actually, every single person reading the text will interpret it differently and seek the company of those who interpret it similarly. We also cannot forget the horrible violence Christians, and, well, basically every group has caused all around the world throughout history in the name of their faith. There are waves, and, right now, there is a wave of people committing horrible and wide-scale violence in the name of Islam in order to assert their identity and autonomy over others. Of course it isn't justified, but to make sweeping generalizations about a religion will lead nowhere. We must look deeply into the words of leaders who spread these violent interpretations--both against and for the religion/faith--some leaders work their hardest to isolate and push out immigrants who may or may not want to assimilate, and some leaders react to this in violent ways rather than encouraging assimilation (which is a cultural issue intertwined with religious teachings)...
Basically, if non-Muslims keep pushing the idea that Islam is inherently violent, doesn't that just help everyone who interprets the Quran as violent and uses it as an excuse to do bad? Why not support those who do interpret the text, or any text for that matter, in a positive way and use it to do positive things? The text is in the power of the interpreter---spread a positive word.
Basically, if non-Muslims keep pushing the idea that Islam is inherently violent, doesn't that just help everyone who interprets the Quran as violent and uses it as an excuse to do bad? Why not support those who do interpret the text, or any text for that matter, in a positive way and use it to do positive things? The text is in the power of the interpreter---spread a positive word.
3
You stumbled, incoherently, on the real issue: All religions poison everything they touch. Moderate believers fertilize the soil from which radicals grow, and provide the social forest into which they run to hide.
1
With all due respect, S., I think your comments are naïve., just like the government of France has been naïve.
The murdering terrorist themselves have said over and over they rely upon the Koran and upon the will of Allah. How much more proof do we need?
The murdering terrorist themselves have said over and over they rely upon the Koran and upon the will of Allah. How much more proof do we need?
3
Your evaluation of the problem is a good philosophical argument. But what is the tactical solution. If the Muslim community and its leaders do not step up and take some responsibility to solve the problem we continue to live in a world of fear and uncertainty with the current level of despicable random acts of violence in the name of Islam.
Their community needs to expose the radical elements (they all know them as they mix in the mosques) and the community knows them.
And then they need to look at the religious teachings that are giving these radicals the philosophical step stone to perpetrate this violence and make changes to the content and underlying tenets.
If they want to live in the free world they need to take action for the common good. All I see is misogyny, violence against other religions, violence against any form of freedom and the quest to be a martyr through violence. Hard to accept their religion or even understand how anyone could be a part of it.
I am sick of the excuses.
Their community needs to expose the radical elements (they all know them as they mix in the mosques) and the community knows them.
And then they need to look at the religious teachings that are giving these radicals the philosophical step stone to perpetrate this violence and make changes to the content and underlying tenets.
If they want to live in the free world they need to take action for the common good. All I see is misogyny, violence against other religions, violence against any form of freedom and the quest to be a martyr through violence. Hard to accept their religion or even understand how anyone could be a part of it.
I am sick of the excuses.
4
Liberals find excuses to condone robbery, mayhem, and murder of the most sadistic crimes and forget about suffering of the victim.
They put the perpetrator because of their oppressed lives or injustices done to them.
Yet the men who flew jumbo jets into The Twin Towers killing thousands were rich and university educated.
To create a contraption that will blow up at a specific time requires knowledge of explosive devices.
To ignore the facts of radical Moslems and what the Quaran says about killing infidels is to minimize the teachings stated therein.
There are many videos online where one can see the militant indoctrination of Muslim children in martyrdom. ISIS teaches seven-year-old children how to behead a person.
We have to confront and destroy these radical Muslim organizations before they create a worldwide conflagration.
Now.
They put the perpetrator because of their oppressed lives or injustices done to them.
Yet the men who flew jumbo jets into The Twin Towers killing thousands were rich and university educated.
To create a contraption that will blow up at a specific time requires knowledge of explosive devices.
To ignore the facts of radical Moslems and what the Quaran says about killing infidels is to minimize the teachings stated therein.
There are many videos online where one can see the militant indoctrination of Muslim children in martyrdom. ISIS teaches seven-year-old children how to behead a person.
We have to confront and destroy these radical Muslim organizations before they create a worldwide conflagration.
Now.
11
I can't help but think that I read this very same article last week. It was about making excuses for the killer of two NYPD officers. We heard all about poverty, mental illness, single mom etc. All in an attempt to get some "understanding".
Why can't the act in and of itself be condemned and the actors likewise. Allah Akbar was on their lips when the AKs were being fired just as it was heard countless times when atrocities were being committed in the name of Allah.
We do not need neither explanations nor excuses nor intellectual posturing. What we need along with "apologies" is a real commitment to see that Islamic inspired murders are stopped. This needs to commence with the U.S. Government and it's support for the Saudis.
Why can't the act in and of itself be condemned and the actors likewise. Allah Akbar was on their lips when the AKs were being fired just as it was heard countless times when atrocities were being committed in the name of Allah.
We do not need neither explanations nor excuses nor intellectual posturing. What we need along with "apologies" is a real commitment to see that Islamic inspired murders are stopped. This needs to commence with the U.S. Government and it's support for the Saudis.
9
Mr. Fish, the political scientist from Berkeley, probably would have studied the USSR and concluded that Communism was not violent because of the low crime.
Poor conclusion.
Muslims states for the most part are repressive of the individual. The individual is not free to think and speak as they wish. The actual rate of violence may be lower (as it was in the USSR) but the implied threat to the individual contemplating doing anything out of the ordinary, even speaking what they may think, is much higher.
The Muslim society may indeed have less violence but it comes at the price of repression. That must be made clear.
Our goals instead should be to lower the level of violence in modern societies but without repression. Indeed, the violence we see in Islam often occurs in a reaction to the freedom in our societies. If Charlie Hebdo had self-censored, allowed itself to be repressed, they would not have become a target.
We must make all of ourselves targets if we really wish to stand with Charlie Hebdo. This must be done both as individuals and institutions.
Kudos to the Huffington Post for printing so many of the cartoons. Kudos also to the Wall Street Journal and to the Washington Post for printing one of the cartoons. The cartoons are what we would be seeing in other news stories that were centered around cartoons. We must not stand down as a result of this blatant intimidation. It is incumbent on us to become more bold together. Boldness together is where our strength lies.
Poor conclusion.
Muslims states for the most part are repressive of the individual. The individual is not free to think and speak as they wish. The actual rate of violence may be lower (as it was in the USSR) but the implied threat to the individual contemplating doing anything out of the ordinary, even speaking what they may think, is much higher.
The Muslim society may indeed have less violence but it comes at the price of repression. That must be made clear.
Our goals instead should be to lower the level of violence in modern societies but without repression. Indeed, the violence we see in Islam often occurs in a reaction to the freedom in our societies. If Charlie Hebdo had self-censored, allowed itself to be repressed, they would not have become a target.
We must make all of ourselves targets if we really wish to stand with Charlie Hebdo. This must be done both as individuals and institutions.
Kudos to the Huffington Post for printing so many of the cartoons. Kudos also to the Wall Street Journal and to the Washington Post for printing one of the cartoons. The cartoons are what we would be seeing in other news stories that were centered around cartoons. We must not stand down as a result of this blatant intimidation. It is incumbent on us to become more bold together. Boldness together is where our strength lies.
10
"Some people who feel crushed or ignored will go toward extremism, and they use religion ..." Please, give us a break. This is a variation of "it's not my fault, your oppressive [insert grievance here] made me do it."
If that was that was needed, then most of Latin America should be a land of religious extremists. Funny how they are not.
If that was that was needed, then most of Latin America should be a land of religious extremists. Funny how they are not.
17
"But some Muslims — most notably the president of Egypt — argue that the contemporary understanding of their religion is infected with justifications for violence, requiring the government and its official clerics to correct the teaching of Islam."
Well, I sure wish they would hurry up. The lack of a coordinated response to unmitigated violence inside and outside the Arab world, perpetrated by "alienated" youth who nonetheless kill in the name of religion, is as abhorrent to me as the actual slaughter.
Stemming violence and turning the tide of what should be seen as erroneous thought starts at the top: with the clerics. Unless, and until, they speak out strongly and begin to reclaim their lost generations so attracted to the glamour and prestige of terrorism, we will continue to get what we have: kids that kill in the name of religion, whether or not they actually believe it.
Well, I sure wish they would hurry up. The lack of a coordinated response to unmitigated violence inside and outside the Arab world, perpetrated by "alienated" youth who nonetheless kill in the name of religion, is as abhorrent to me as the actual slaughter.
Stemming violence and turning the tide of what should be seen as erroneous thought starts at the top: with the clerics. Unless, and until, they speak out strongly and begin to reclaim their lost generations so attracted to the glamour and prestige of terrorism, we will continue to get what we have: kids that kill in the name of religion, whether or not they actually believe it.
9
What Sisi has said about the need for reform in Islam, is a brave, entirely valid, and timely statement. This is the first leader to acknowledge that it is not the people who pervert Islam, but it is Islam that is the problem. Amen to that.
But if you scratch the surface, one finds Saudi Arabia too significantly enmeshed in the roots of the problem; what with their fairly prodigious support of everything Wahabi outside their borders. And if you scratch this, you see that our coziness with this medieval monarchy lies at the root of their sustenance. Saudis and their ilk have financed every petri dish of hatred all across the Muslim world (Afghanistan, Pakistan, pockets in Africa and Europe).
So what do we do?
Let's call it: Your religious freedom ends where lives of innocents begins.
I want to call out the apologists and multi-culturists in the West that tolerate and implicitly encourage the practice of Islam as a hateful religion by mouthing nonsense such as "Islam is a religion of peace, these are a few misguided people.' Wrong, the Koran is written in ancient Arabic, hard to decipher, filled with contradictions, promotes a theocracy appropriate for the 7th century, and absolutely justifies violence and killing of the infidels. What these Muslims are doing is absolutely acceptable under current tenets of Islam. It cannot be accepted as a religion for modern times unless it is seriously reformed, and preached differently.
Kalidan
But if you scratch the surface, one finds Saudi Arabia too significantly enmeshed in the roots of the problem; what with their fairly prodigious support of everything Wahabi outside their borders. And if you scratch this, you see that our coziness with this medieval monarchy lies at the root of their sustenance. Saudis and their ilk have financed every petri dish of hatred all across the Muslim world (Afghanistan, Pakistan, pockets in Africa and Europe).
So what do we do?
Let's call it: Your religious freedom ends where lives of innocents begins.
I want to call out the apologists and multi-culturists in the West that tolerate and implicitly encourage the practice of Islam as a hateful religion by mouthing nonsense such as "Islam is a religion of peace, these are a few misguided people.' Wrong, the Koran is written in ancient Arabic, hard to decipher, filled with contradictions, promotes a theocracy appropriate for the 7th century, and absolutely justifies violence and killing of the infidels. What these Muslims are doing is absolutely acceptable under current tenets of Islam. It cannot be accepted as a religion for modern times unless it is seriously reformed, and preached differently.
Kalidan
18
Then Kalidan, according to your analysis, Christianity is a hateful religion prone to violence too. The Bible is written in Aramaic and Ancient Greek, difficult to decipher, contradictory, and clearly mythical. It too promotes a theocracy appropriate for the 7th century or earlier, and justifies killing infidels. When Moses led his people out of Egypt, on the way out, God slew all the first born sons, committing a rather major genocide. To test Abraham, God commanded him to kill his son with a knife.
Furthermore, nearly all of the massacres in America, from the massacres of Native Americans right up to McVeigh, the Columbine killers, and the Sandy Hook shootings, were done by Christians.
So if Islam is a religion of violence which steps should be taken against, then certainly Christianity is too.
Furthermore, nearly all of the massacres in America, from the massacres of Native Americans right up to McVeigh, the Columbine killers, and the Sandy Hook shootings, were done by Christians.
So if Islam is a religion of violence which steps should be taken against, then certainly Christianity is too.
2
The problem of Islamic terrorism seems to have gotten worse since the collapse of the Soviet Union discredited socialist revolution as a counterweight to oppression. As the one author stated, if you are attacked, and only have a fork, you stab with a fork. What other idelogies are available for use in combating authoritarian regimes or vestiges of colonialism? That is the challenge. The Tahrir Square rallies showed one way. Though the result seems to be drifting towards another authoritarian regime, one model of change from an authoritarian regime was established.
1
21st century Islam has a disproportionately large amount of adherents who are poor and disenfranchised. It is a chicken and egg cycle of poverty, intolerance, absolutism, corruption and paranoia. In these societies, non-governmental organizations (NGOs), and different and opposing philosophies do not exist. Those who seek power are by nature brutal and corrupt, largely unwilling to compromise and ready to kill anyone in their way. In these societies there is no accountability, only seizing and maintaining power by all means necessary.
All too often, the role of the Koran is to add legitimacy to a dictatorship or deflect resentment. For example the House of Saud with its trillions of dollars and beyond lavish lifestyle, sponsor Wahabi extremism that founded Al Quada just to show their fidelity. Sunnis and Shiites are endlessly fighting while their leaders live in large palaces. The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is the perfect foil.
One Charlie Hbedo cartoon shows Mohammed lamenting his difficulty of leading a bunch of idiots. There really is little wrong with the Koran, it is the adherents who too often practice the worst interpretation.
All too often, the role of the Koran is to add legitimacy to a dictatorship or deflect resentment. For example the House of Saud with its trillions of dollars and beyond lavish lifestyle, sponsor Wahabi extremism that founded Al Quada just to show their fidelity. Sunnis and Shiites are endlessly fighting while their leaders live in large palaces. The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is the perfect foil.
One Charlie Hbedo cartoon shows Mohammed lamenting his difficulty of leading a bunch of idiots. There really is little wrong with the Koran, it is the adherents who too often practice the worst interpretation.
4
it is not what Muslims are saying, it it what they are not saying that is of concern. I often wonder if the lack of a central leadership within Islam is the problem in that there is no figurehead who can speak out against extremism, no one leader who would rally Muslims against extremism.
14
If it is any solace to Muslims, Christianity had its violent moments in Europe which they exported to the Americas. The religious wars in Europe, violence to Jews for almost 1,000 years, and the destruction of Native Americans in two continents attest to this. Is this an excuse for Muslims to wreak havoc with people that they disagree with? Not too many people would excuse the recent attacks made in the name of Allah.
Many countries with Muslim majorities have seen rapid population growth in the past century. Other than in the oil producing nations the economies cannot support the population. The lack of jobs can only cause unrest throughout this land. Socialism hasn't worked. Only strong authoritarian leaders have been able to hold countries together. There is little foundation for the growth of democracy.
It's a mess and will plague the West for many years to come. I don't see a solution in the near future. The anger of a relatively few will continue to lash out and destroy many lives.
Many countries with Muslim majorities have seen rapid population growth in the past century. Other than in the oil producing nations the economies cannot support the population. The lack of jobs can only cause unrest throughout this land. Socialism hasn't worked. Only strong authoritarian leaders have been able to hold countries together. There is little foundation for the growth of democracy.
It's a mess and will plague the West for many years to come. I don't see a solution in the near future. The anger of a relatively few will continue to lash out and destroy many lives.
3
Tell me again, please, why humanity needs religion.
20
A.: To allay its congenital fears about spending Eternity in a very hot place. Next question?
I don't see religion as the problem. the liberal left should stop forcing the idea that we must all live in the same space regardless of values, cultural, religious and racial differences. Maybe if you want to move to France - a country with a strong cultural identity - you should accept French law, culture and values. If not then stay home. What's wrong with that?
4
Wow, so much political correctness. When I think about the Muslim / Arab world, unfortunately what now comes to mind is hate being spewed from mosques from Pakistan all the way to London, people dancing in the streets after 9/11, beheadings in a desert, and the routine demonization of Jews. I think about people who have taken advantage of a European way of life including generous welfare benefits and then never integrated into those societies. The 9/11 highjackers were all well to do, so the argument about economic inequality causing terrorism doesn't hold water. The world, especially Europe, needs to wake up and do something about the scourge of Islamofascism. I suggest a 1-2 year period of national service to their country for all young people in Europe. If you don't want to participate - go somewhere else. And the Muslims who are appalled at these kinds of events need to as a group do something to control the extremist and violent element among them.
12
If God (whomever's version) is watching, why would God allow all this killing in God's name?
3
A.: So that mankind will share in the suffering He felt when they tortured and crucified his son, despite beaucoup miracles and the fulfillment of the prophecy. The pain should make people seek God, and appease Him.
As a black male American Muslim, I can tell my fellow citizens that Islam's 'spin doctors' of love are working overtime; but to no avail. Pakistan graduated 20,000 computer scientists last year and put out a press release. The response? NPR did a 30 minute special on a small rural madrassa that taught hate to 30 elementary kids. We positive promoters, inshalla, will prevail. But it is tough going, and of course there is a serious comprehension gap. For example, Muslims know a picture of the Prophet (PBUH) cannot be drawn. But non-Muslims do not understand what 'cannot' really means. It means Kodak wasn't around then, thus no photos to copy. The Prophet (PBUH) was a VERY serious opponent of idolatry, so there are no drawings; He wouldn't be the type to do the portrait thing. Therefore, any 'drawing' is imaginary. True, it also means to honor Allah, and not the Man, but that was the beauty of his leadership; no statues, no engravings, no coinage - nothing - all to make it impossible to worship an Image; or to lampoon it. Get it? No, of course you don't. Sigh.....
1
I don't have to "get it" to live peacefully side-by-side. I invoke the name "God" when my Jewish friends don't, and we coexist happily. Respect for different beliefs and agreeing to disagree can be done peacefully.
No. I do not get it. Why should anyone follow the precepts of a religion he/she is not a member of? Or why should anyone have the right to kill people for not following the precepts of a religion not their own?
4
Mr Isaac, that's fine but understand that is not the West's tradition. Free speech is, including what you may deem offensive speech. Charlie Hebdo lampooned every religion equally--no religion is privileged above others, or above the foundations of a democratic society, of which free speech is core.
2
This is why the separation of church and state are so very important. Islamic history is no more violent than Christian history. Parts of the Old Testament are filled with war and punishment. We need to look at the love rather than the hate that come from the struggles described in the scriptures.
Socio-economic factors are fueling the violence. Religion only gives a cover to the horrible violence perpetuated by factions that are often trying to gain power rather than do their "God's work."
There are real problems in the Middle East (as well as many other places). Poverty, unemployment and education are at the top of the list. These issues in the Middle East must be addressed or the problem will continue in the Jihadist form or morph into another outlet.
But religious solutions don't work on political problems. They simply give guidance to legislators to do the right thing. Legislating Sharia, Christian, or any other religion's laws leaves no room for compromise or adjustment for the needs of present times.
How many solutions from hundreds of years ago really apply today? There are universal messages - which is the great thing about religion but the application to daily life needs a filter.
Women don't need to cover their heads on Saturday to go to church anymore in the Christian faith and Moslem women should be able to drive cars.
Socio-economic factors are fueling the violence. Religion only gives a cover to the horrible violence perpetuated by factions that are often trying to gain power rather than do their "God's work."
There are real problems in the Middle East (as well as many other places). Poverty, unemployment and education are at the top of the list. These issues in the Middle East must be addressed or the problem will continue in the Jihadist form or morph into another outlet.
But religious solutions don't work on political problems. They simply give guidance to legislators to do the right thing. Legislating Sharia, Christian, or any other religion's laws leaves no room for compromise or adjustment for the needs of present times.
How many solutions from hundreds of years ago really apply today? There are universal messages - which is the great thing about religion but the application to daily life needs a filter.
Women don't need to cover their heads on Saturday to go to church anymore in the Christian faith and Moslem women should be able to drive cars.
3
Perhaps Islam is not violent but it is the main religion in countries that seem to have in common, extreme wealth (and the powers inherent therein) and extreme poverty. The appeasement of the poor is to pay them to behave. The poor have shown their discontent by uprisings such as the Arab Spring.
That is what makes the purchase of our Congress by the very wealthy so disturbing. To a much lesser degree, we have extremist religions here but in far less numbers and many Americans still feel that better circumstances and living conditions can be achieved through the vote even though that solution is growing questionable.
We all need to be very careful. Even voting Americans can become angry and discouraged. Fortunately, the circumstances of our society are hugely different from those in countries in which Islam is the predominant faith.
That is what makes the purchase of our Congress by the very wealthy so disturbing. To a much lesser degree, we have extremist religions here but in far less numbers and many Americans still feel that better circumstances and living conditions can be achieved through the vote even though that solution is growing questionable.
We all need to be very careful. Even voting Americans can become angry and discouraged. Fortunately, the circumstances of our society are hugely different from those in countries in which Islam is the predominant faith.
As a group, people who own assault rifles, high powered ammunition, and paramilitary gear are far more likely to participate in mass shootings than people affiliated with any particular religious or political grouping.
I don't know anyone who owns paramilitary weapons and gear, but these are the people that local law enforcement officers must keep their eyes on. If these same people express extremist views, then the local police have a duty to intervene on the public's behalf.
We cannot cure our societies of insanity, but we can outlaw the private ownership of assault rifles.
I don't know anyone who owns paramilitary weapons and gear, but these are the people that local law enforcement officers must keep their eyes on. If these same people express extremist views, then the local police have a duty to intervene on the public's behalf.
We cannot cure our societies of insanity, but we can outlaw the private ownership of assault rifles.
2
Mr Ezzat's comment that "Islam is the source of the state's authority, and that we should all be governed by Islamic law" provides the best insight into the dysfunctional impact of Islamic theocracy.
Islam today is no different than the 12th century Christianity of the Inquisition. Both then and today, the religious (hence state) authorities imposed one and only one interpretation of god, life, law, behavior and consequence on their people. Apostasy, then as now in Islamic theocracies, carried with it barbaric punishments that were at best, tolerated and at worse, enthusiastically supported by the mainstream of the people.
The difference in the past 900 years is twofold: (a) the western civilizations experienced vicious wars which in the end diminished Catholicism as a political force and (b) experienced both a scientific and philosophical enlightenment which in turn elevated quality of life for the broader population.
Islamic tribes / nations today are still rooted in the 500 to 1500 AD state of mind. Their clergies are still fundamental to the absolute political power of the ruling tribes and in some locales are the rulers unto themselves. Their adherents, be they Wahabbis or IS or Alqaeda wannabes all see themselves as the second coming of the caliphate.
The practical problem for civilized countries is what to do about the Islamic theocracies who export their madrassas, their clerics and their sharia to Islamic immigrant communities in the west.
Islam today is no different than the 12th century Christianity of the Inquisition. Both then and today, the religious (hence state) authorities imposed one and only one interpretation of god, life, law, behavior and consequence on their people. Apostasy, then as now in Islamic theocracies, carried with it barbaric punishments that were at best, tolerated and at worse, enthusiastically supported by the mainstream of the people.
The difference in the past 900 years is twofold: (a) the western civilizations experienced vicious wars which in the end diminished Catholicism as a political force and (b) experienced both a scientific and philosophical enlightenment which in turn elevated quality of life for the broader population.
Islamic tribes / nations today are still rooted in the 500 to 1500 AD state of mind. Their clergies are still fundamental to the absolute political power of the ruling tribes and in some locales are the rulers unto themselves. Their adherents, be they Wahabbis or IS or Alqaeda wannabes all see themselves as the second coming of the caliphate.
The practical problem for civilized countries is what to do about the Islamic theocracies who export their madrassas, their clerics and their sharia to Islamic immigrant communities in the west.
8
Theoretically, that's why countries have immigration laws.
3
WWMD? Let's be honest. Mohammed didn't go around mass murdering others. That would be Ghengis Khan, the Scourge of Asia. Mohammed also would not have taken issue with such violent reaction to a silly cartoon. Rather, as a prophet, like most prophets, he would naturally have ignored that some humans cannot resist inciting others and instigating trouble.
The Muslim community now has to do what Catholics, Jews and Buddhists had to do, place their leaders under the strongest microscope. Within some mosques today, there are religious Muslim leaders who are not religious in the criteria of Mohammed. They are power freaks looking for control. Men like that have no real sense of religion. They have only their manic desire to control the world...Ghenghis Khan...all over again.
Study the history of Ghenghis Khan and you find his conquering of all of Asia and as far west as Spain was not due to religion. In fact, Khan was born to a poor family who lived in what is now Siberia. He rose to fame in the same way that these religious leaders in mosques have risen...magnetic charisma. Khan was an "enforcer." He grew in power via his innate ability to "force" others to his will using grotesque violence he knew shocked ordinary, civilized human beings. Sound familiar?
The Muslim community now has to do what Catholics, Jews and Buddhists had to do, place their leaders under the strongest microscope. Within some mosques today, there are religious Muslim leaders who are not religious in the criteria of Mohammed. They are power freaks looking for control. Men like that have no real sense of religion. They have only their manic desire to control the world...Ghenghis Khan...all over again.
Study the history of Ghenghis Khan and you find his conquering of all of Asia and as far west as Spain was not due to religion. In fact, Khan was born to a poor family who lived in what is now Siberia. He rose to fame in the same way that these religious leaders in mosques have risen...magnetic charisma. Khan was an "enforcer." He grew in power via his innate ability to "force" others to his will using grotesque violence he knew shocked ordinary, civilized human beings. Sound familiar?
You should read your history again, and understand it as well. Mohammed converted all tribes at the Arab Peninsula by the sword! Those who refused, were brutally murdered. (That included many Jewish enclaves there). This tradition is only being reinforced today, with more cruelty and revenge. Please wake up, you and the rest of the 'political correct west" and see what this religion is up to! Conquer the rest of the world by the sword, and breeding! But again you are all too comfortable in you suburbia home, and clueless to what is really going on out there.
3
Should questions be raised about Judaism because of the atrocities committed over the years by the Israeli's and the continued slow, methodical genocide of the Palestinian people caged by the apartheid wall? Muslims who engage in beheadings are rightly called terrorists. What do we call IDF members who bomb refugee camps, hospitals, schools and civilian homes??? Just sayin.
3
The IDF is guilty of nothing more than collateral damage while bombing terrorists who hide behind women, children, schools, and mosques, as was seen in Gaza recently. Even you can distinguish between mass murders of schoolchildren and civilians on all five continents and an errant bomb from 10,000 ft.
1
Israel defends itself from Hamas because rockets were shot at them, or do you conveniently forget that? Weapons were shot from civilians and then immediately hidden so that Israel did not even know where they were being shot from. Egypt blocked Gaza for years for good reason, but for some straaaaange reason, Hamas did not attack Egypt. Now, why would that be? There are lots of ways that Palestinians could have their own state (besides Jordan of course) over the past 67 years, but they refuse anything except taking all of Israel.
4
What does Israel has to do with this? If there was no Israel, they would have still fought each other and the west, until one side loses all they all die.
2
Islam seems to generate violence at the local level. Terrorist groups gain justification for their acts from local imams or others who may place themselves as the interpreters of the Quran. Harnessing frustrations and anger among young and often under- or unemployed young men and women does the rest. When seen through the lens of ideology, their inability to see a different point of view or to accept that violence is not the answer, they do not seem different from any groups of fundamentalist christians or white supremacy groups in the US. Many gain strength from self-appointed messiahs or feel empowered when an african american man is in the White House, but the underlying tension is the same. The only difference is that those acting in the name of islam seem to be more organized and motivated. If people gave more credence to Ted Nugent, we would have a similar problem here.
1
I don't know if al-Sisi's comments will affect the behavior of many Islamic militants/terrorists, but his comments do affect my attitude towards Moslems. If the Islamic leaders do not forcefully and repeatedly condemn such acts by members of that community, what are we to think ? The lack of vigorous action against Islam-justified terrorism by the Islamic community, especially its leaders, can only leave outsiders to think that the Moslems condone such action.
The Moslem community should do all it can to rid itself of those who enjoy killing, under the guise of seeking to be martyrs.
The Moslem community should do all it can to rid itself of those who enjoy killing, under the guise of seeking to be martyrs.
7
I whole hearted agree with you. the reaction to the violence is often campaigns to separate the violence from the ISLAM with all kind of excuses as to why it has happened. This is a wrong headed approach and is obviously not working.
As you said It is the responsibility of the islamic community and its leaders to step forward and identify the radical elements (they know who they are) within their ranks and proactively change whatever education is inspiring and condoning violence and hate.
This problem has to and needs to be solved from within their own community.
As you said It is the responsibility of the islamic community and its leaders to step forward and identify the radical elements (they know who they are) within their ranks and proactively change whatever education is inspiring and condoning violence and hate.
This problem has to and needs to be solved from within their own community.
1
When an Islamic Studies professor at Gaza University spoke out against Hamas last year, he was executed within a few days, in his classroom. Another group of 20 Gazans were lined up and in public for demanding a ceasefire from Hamas. About 20 other peace-seeking Gazans were executed individually by Hamas.
4
"There is very little empirical evidence that Islam is violent." What planet does this guy live on?!
These questions are being raised after the FRANCE shootings? Where has all this anguished introspection been for the last 15+ years?
These questions are being raised after the FRANCE shootings? Where has all this anguished introspection been for the last 15+ years?
18
I now know the definition of "double speak." This guy says this, that guy says that, alternating paragraphs, getting nowhere, alternating interpretations. No resolution, no conclusions. Such a waste.
8
In France, an individual who criticizes Muslims is brought up on charges. Enough said. Not only have western nations accepted Muslim immigrants, they coddle them for fear of being labeled racist. Immigrants have a responsibility to adopt their new land and it's customs and language. This does not means forgetting who you are or where you came from.
13
"In France, an individual who criticizes Muslims is brought up on charges." Nope. France, like many European countries, protects speech with the exception of hate speech intended to defame or incite. These laws predate the arrival of large Muslim populations by many decades and in recent years have been used to prevent the publication of images deemed offensive to Christians and to shut down Holocaust deniers (good!). The mere criticism of Islam is hardly prohibited (consider the simple fact that Charlie Hebdo is published). In fact, the French have a political party based in part on that very practice. Perhaps you should join.
It's not just Islam - it's divisive "Us vs. Them" thinking found (predominantly) Abrahamic religions. When your God tells you the Other is not only bad, but Evil, some sick minds feel they must do something for their God; for The Good.
It's not only religion, but mostly. This kind of thinking can be found in Nationalism, too, for example.
It's one thing to not like something, but it's another to feel justified by the creator of the universe to act on that dislike.
It's not only religion, but mostly. This kind of thinking can be found in Nationalism, too, for example.
It's one thing to not like something, but it's another to feel justified by the creator of the universe to act on that dislike.
4
Really??? I don't buy that at all. For anyone who believes Kirkpatrick's article, get hold of a copy of the Koran and read it. While reading it, realize that the word, "smite," means cut off the head. Used with respect - or disrespect - to, "infidels," that is, those who don't believe that Mohammad was a prophet.
13
Most of the Muslim/Islam bashing reeks of racism. When a crazed person kills others and is connected to the Islamic faith, the entire religion is painted with the same brush. When a crazed killer of Christian faith kills others he is just a crazed killer. The KKK burned crosses in lawns for decades, yet I never heard anyone condemn Christianity as a religion that fosters hate. Utter "Jesus or God made me kill the other person," and you are put in a mental hospital.
But closer to home, we democratically elected Bush/Cheney who took this country to war based upon a lie killing tens of thousands of Muslims. How many? Who knows, since Rummy told us we don't count deaths. Pretty brazen conduct.
Aside from never apologizing for our Country's killing, most in this Country feel no responsibility for what Bush/Cheney did. We felt powerless to stop them, even though a majority re-elected them. Most Americans would be deeply offended if a foreigner pointed a finger at them saying, "You are to blame for all of those deaths."
Killing to advance political/religious causes is immoral and wrong. It matters not whether the killer believes in the Prophet Mohamed or Prophet Democracy.
But closer to home, we democratically elected Bush/Cheney who took this country to war based upon a lie killing tens of thousands of Muslims. How many? Who knows, since Rummy told us we don't count deaths. Pretty brazen conduct.
Aside from never apologizing for our Country's killing, most in this Country feel no responsibility for what Bush/Cheney did. We felt powerless to stop them, even though a majority re-elected them. Most Americans would be deeply offended if a foreigner pointed a finger at them saying, "You are to blame for all of those deaths."
Killing to advance political/religious causes is immoral and wrong. It matters not whether the killer believes in the Prophet Mohamed or Prophet Democracy.
43
Talk to the current occupant of the WH, who continues Bush's wars without reservation, or authorization from Congress.
2
The christian church does not preach killing infidels. They stopped doing that 700 years ago! There are many Islamic leaders(far from most but still many) that preach hate and intolerance. That is the whole difference. To deny it is to deny reality.
3
"Muslim/Islam bashing" Really? I think you should read the intro paragraph of this article one more time. It catalogues just a handful of the most prominent and heinous acts perpetrated in the name of Islam. Where your Christian analogy breaks down is that the crazed gunmen at the CT elementary school and CO theatre didn't run in yelling "Jesus is Great" as they pulled the trigger. I'm not blaming Islam whatsoever, but I do agree with President Sisi: the religion has become infected with blood thirst - for example the justification for killing any non-believer as being a heretic. Certainly the Muslim world must look deeply into its collective heart to find the sources - be they theological, political, sociological or all of the above - that is loosing this pestilence of violence in the world.
3
I'm glad the intellectuals and academics are busy debating whether Islam is violent. I guess they haven't been reading the newspapers for the past 10 years. The only religious wars and religious terrorist activities are being undertaken by Muslims. How do you explain this?
166
Good thing you limited your question to "religious wars" because we wouldn't want anyone thinking about why our country has been the leader in killing innocent foreign civilians during the past 5 decades. Our reasons for going to war?
Religion/politics--killing to seek an end is wrong and if we could only harness some of the justifiable outrage in the current situation to curtail our own killing of civilians abroad.
Religion/politics--killing to seek an end is wrong and if we could only harness some of the justifiable outrage in the current situation to curtail our own killing of civilians abroad.
6
You do know that there is religious violence perpetrated by Christians right here in America, don't you? If you'd like to go farther afield Christians are attacking Muslims in the Sudan, Buddhists are trying to purge Muslims in Myanmar, Hindus in some areas of India target Muslims for beatings and lynchings, etc etc etc. You also have the genocide conducted by the Maronites in the Lebonese civil war, the Christians engaging in genocide in the Yugoslavian war, etc etc etc...
So my explanation is that you just aren't as informed as you need to be on the matter.
So my explanation is that you just aren't as informed as you need to be on the matter.
1
Perhaps you should follow the news a little more closely. Might I suggest that you look at Buddhist extremists in Sri Lanka and Myanmar or, perhaps, some Christian Identity folks in the United States? Hindu extremists in India? The news is out there. You, unfortunately, have chosen to be selective in what you read and see.
4
If the radicalism within Islam was due to despotic Arab regimes, how would that explain the actions of jihadists raised in the West, like the Paris shooters or Major Hassan here? Large majorities in Muslim majority societies favor execution for those who renounce or slander Islam, and the judicial systems in such states as Pakistan, Iran, and Afghanistan have been used to enforce that. Is that also due to despotic Arab regimes?
I would imagine many of the barbarities we perceive within Islam would have been fairly typical of Western areas at some point centuries in the past (although I cannot recall stories of folks relishing in sawing off the heads of tied up prisoners), yet the Christianity we see today and Western society in general have long moved beyond that, as has most of the rest of the world.
But back when they had not, such behaviors were pretty standard in many cultures and societies, and so could be considered typical of its time (although by some metrics, the Islamic world was more developed then). So perhaps the proper question remains why has Islam failed to develop as the rest of humanity has? And, since that particular failing does indeed seem peculiar to Islam, the likelihood is that the answer rests within factors peculiar to it (or at least the cultures which developed within it).
I would imagine many of the barbarities we perceive within Islam would have been fairly typical of Western areas at some point centuries in the past (although I cannot recall stories of folks relishing in sawing off the heads of tied up prisoners), yet the Christianity we see today and Western society in general have long moved beyond that, as has most of the rest of the world.
But back when they had not, such behaviors were pretty standard in many cultures and societies, and so could be considered typical of its time (although by some metrics, the Islamic world was more developed then). So perhaps the proper question remains why has Islam failed to develop as the rest of humanity has? And, since that particular failing does indeed seem peculiar to Islam, the likelihood is that the answer rests within factors peculiar to it (or at least the cultures which developed within it).
142
pakistan, iran and aghanistan are also muslim majority countries where historically minorities lived in peace and security for decades prior to the western introduction of 'jihad' in the 1980s in the region to fight the soviets. pakistan has hosted millions of christians and hindus who have historically been safe, iran has had a large jewish population, and afghanistan even had sizable number of minority religious communities. so no, large majorities of muslim societies do not favor execution for those who slander islam or renounce it. islam is a rule of law based religion. there are proper codified and century old established methodologies for dealing with those who renounce faith or slander. and killing the person is not step 1. to reduce the history of islam to the last 10 years is racist and ignorant. islam has a history of 1500 years, in places as diverse as india and spain, where its followers built magnificent physical structures, and erected mountains of scholarly knowledge for others to seek out. its no coincidence that post colonial islamic socieities have struggled to deal with this post colonial world. to ration that islam has failed to develop is again typical of american attitudes about foreign ideas and religions. thomas jefferson and the founding fathers were tuned into islam and knew of its democratic credentials. the magna carta borrows its themes and social justice contracts heavily from the Quran. have muslims failed to develop? yes, perhaps.
1
The West used to relish burning heretics alive, surely as gruesome as any beheading.
Then came the Scientific Revolution and the Enlightenment, which discredited religion as THE authority on all matters.
For reasons I don't know, these intellectual currents did not penetrate the Muslim world (which is surprising, since earlier that world had been a leader in science.)
It may be that, until the Muslim world becomes more secular, intolerance fueled by religion will continue t hold sway there.
Then came the Scientific Revolution and the Enlightenment, which discredited religion as THE authority on all matters.
For reasons I don't know, these intellectual currents did not penetrate the Muslim world (which is surprising, since earlier that world had been a leader in science.)
It may be that, until the Muslim world becomes more secular, intolerance fueled by religion will continue t hold sway there.
3
"I would imagine many of the barbarities we perceive within Islam would have been fairly typical of Western areas at some point centuries in the past (although I cannot recall stories of folks relishing in sawing off the heads of tied up prisoners), yet the Christianity we see today and Western society in general have long moved beyond that, as has most of the rest of the world."
Let us not forget the English and French beheadings of the past!
Current Christian instigators
Cote d’ivoire
Following the elections in late 2000, government security forces "began targeting civilians solely and explicitly on the basis of their religion, ethnic group, or national origin. The overwhelming majority of victims come from the largely Muslim north of the country
Kosovo
There is convincing evidence of past mass murder by Yugoslavian government (mainly Serbian Orthodox Christians) against ethnic Albanians (mostly Muslim)
Uganda
Christian rebels of the Lord's Resistance Army are conducting a civil war in the north of Uganda. Their goal is a Christian theocracy whose laws are based on the Ten Commandments. They abduct, enslave and/or raped about 2,000 children a year.
Let us not forget the English and French beheadings of the past!
Current Christian instigators
Cote d’ivoire
Following the elections in late 2000, government security forces "began targeting civilians solely and explicitly on the basis of their religion, ethnic group, or national origin. The overwhelming majority of victims come from the largely Muslim north of the country
Kosovo
There is convincing evidence of past mass murder by Yugoslavian government (mainly Serbian Orthodox Christians) against ethnic Albanians (mostly Muslim)
Uganda
Christian rebels of the Lord's Resistance Army are conducting a civil war in the north of Uganda. Their goal is a Christian theocracy whose laws are based on the Ten Commandments. They abduct, enslave and/or raped about 2,000 children a year.
When your religious leaders espouse an action you don't believe in, you throw them out. When your fellow Muslims in your Mosque espouse actions you don't believe in, you leave.
If most Muslims do not believe in the terrorist actions being conducted by some, why don't they stop it? Why don't they stand up and say, no!
Are they like sheep? Are they that stupid? Are they cowards?
Where are the Muslims that believe in the freedom of all religions?
Freedom has never been free!
If most Muslims do not believe in the terrorist actions being conducted by some, why don't they stop it? Why don't they stand up and say, no!
Are they like sheep? Are they that stupid? Are they cowards?
Where are the Muslims that believe in the freedom of all religions?
Freedom has never been free!
148
How many times do the majority of Muslims have to stand up and say that they reject violence and denounce the actions of terrorists? Even in this most recent attack the swift and immediate response from the vast majority of the Muslim community was horror and condemnation.
Now, why don't Muslims stand up and stop these sort of horrific criminal actions? Well, I could ask you, why don't you personally stop crime from happening in your neighborhood. You know these people don't you? Surely you can ferret out the criminals from your own local community swiftly. What? You haven't and you cant? Well, why not? You mean to say that you don't personally know every single person in Atlanta and aren't aware of every aspect of their lives and what their desires, fears, angers, and plans are? Are you a sheep or a coward or stupid?
Now, why don't Muslims stand up and stop these sort of horrific criminal actions? Well, I could ask you, why don't you personally stop crime from happening in your neighborhood. You know these people don't you? Surely you can ferret out the criminals from your own local community swiftly. What? You haven't and you cant? Well, why not? You mean to say that you don't personally know every single person in Atlanta and aren't aware of every aspect of their lives and what their desires, fears, angers, and plans are? Are you a sheep or a coward or stupid?
2
"Where are the Muslims..." -- There are about a billion of them -- just out in the world, living their normal lives peacefully, like you and I.
There are many comments in this section expressing anger that mainstream Muslims are not all out in the streets waving banners etc to protest violent extremists. But come on -- this is simply unrealistic -- ordinary Muslims are like regular people anywhere just going to work and school. That is what they should be doing. Real change comes from conversation, thought, leading to political change. Just because people are not waving pitchforks means nothing!
There are many comments in this section expressing anger that mainstream Muslims are not all out in the streets waving banners etc to protest violent extremists. But come on -- this is simply unrealistic -- ordinary Muslims are like regular people anywhere just going to work and school. That is what they should be doing. Real change comes from conversation, thought, leading to political change. Just because people are not waving pitchforks means nothing!
21
Have you ever set foot in a mosque? From you comment, I rather suspect you haven't. Please explain to me then why you are lecturing people about how they should behave when you don't actually know how they behave...
Now is the time for all Muslim people and their Imams who profess their abhorrence of this type of violence to stand up and show their support for where their new county is, and to those of us who live in democracies and freedoms given to us under a Constitution, a Magna Carta, or the Canadian Constitution.
If I am not my brother's keeper,then who a I?
One cannot profess to coming to a new country for the freedom that it provides and away from tyranny in the form of religion or people, and then complain about the new country.
I wouldn't go so far as to thus the expression "If you are not for me,you are against me", but here in Canada, I feel that the many good people of the Muslim community have remained silent for too long. We have seen the worst atrocities to be seen in hundreds of years before us now, in the Middle East and in the free World, and the time has finally come to stand up and be counted!
If I am not my brother's keeper,then who a I?
One cannot profess to coming to a new country for the freedom that it provides and away from tyranny in the form of religion or people, and then complain about the new country.
I wouldn't go so far as to thus the expression "If you are not for me,you are against me", but here in Canada, I feel that the many good people of the Muslim community have remained silent for too long. We have seen the worst atrocities to be seen in hundreds of years before us now, in the Middle East and in the free World, and the time has finally come to stand up and be counted!
105
What would you like them to do that they haven't already done? Many Muslims all over the world have resoundingly rejected violence and terrorism. Many Imams have stated over and over again that violence of this sort has no place in Islam. Many Muslims in Canada, America, France, and so forth clearly state how much they love the country of which they are citizens. They have joined the armed forces, they've become policemen, they've become first responders. What, specifically, more do you want of them?
1
Surprising that we seem to forget that "brother's keeper" comment came from the first recorded Biblical murderer in a snarky comment to his god.
2
It seems to me there is not enough emphasis on the fact that at their core most of the young men who commit heinous acts in the name of Islam are outcasts masquerading in a righteous piety. In this guise They carry out unspeakable acts in the name of Islam, uncomprehending its core value of mercy, believing this will bring meaning to their empty, shiftless lives. Consider for a moment the similarities between the assassin of the two New York policemen and the pathological murderers on the loose in Paris: failure in their personal lives, no career, family or community commitments attaching them to something larger than themselves and, most dangerously, an unhinged rage at targets they can rationalize as the "enemy". Until we address the basic outsider status of these individuals, beyond branding them "losers" we will continue to suffer the outbursts of their alienated madness.
20
Religion, all religion, is a mythology that was once useful for maintaining social structure and unifying tribal goals. Today it has morphed into a huge stone around the neck of humanity that keeps millions from lifting their heads to progress, enlightenment, and knowledge. While there will always be a certain percentage of people so insecure in their own beliefs and accomplishments that they crave direction from others, it is past the time when scientific enlightenment and the secular world should have brought all its weight to bear on ending the stupidity of religion, which, let's face it, is a minority of dependent priests doing all they can to keep their flocks wallowing in ignorance and magic thinking.Talk of any god is superstitious nonsense, and its about time the media and the secular governments of the world call a spade a spade every time it it comes up. "So you are saying that you base your beliefs on an imaginary being who flies around in the sky? Like Santa Claus? What are you, nuts?"
33
It is exactly for this reason the cartoonists were killed. They were the point of our spear pointed against the superstitious nonsense religion. How far off are we here? Our presidents genuflect before the robed religious heads and tell the believers in sky fairies that "I'm a believer just like you." The superstitious nonsense rules us all.
4
"NO GENITAL MUTILATION for anybody. Period"
Genital mutilation is not from ISLAM. It is a CULTURAL practice (as abhorrent as it is) in some African countries.
Genital mutilation is not from ISLAM. It is a CULTURAL practice (as abhorrent as it is) in some African countries.
2
Saudi Arabia is one of the most intolerant Muslim countries. It was Saudi Arabia that funded Madrasas that taught Islamic fundamentalism, in countries like Pakistan and India. Any Islamic reform has to start from there.
1. Sharia law should be REPEALED - no lashes, no beheadings, no cutting off hands, no stone throwing, NO FATWAH, and so on.
2. Muslim women should be given FULL EQUALITY with men - no compulsory burka ever.
3. No girl shall be married before she is 16 or 18 and against her will, at that.
4. ALL children shall be given secular education in basic science, and mathematics.
5. NO GENITAL MUTILATION for anybody. Period.
6. NO ayatollah or Imam shall be allowed to meddle in the matters of statecraft.
7. Only CIVIL laws should govern; not religious laws.
8. ALL dictatorships should pave the way for democratization, in an orderly fashion.
Arabs/Muslims are second to none. But, right now they are mired in religion. That is why they are so lagging behind in science and technology.
1. Sharia law should be REPEALED - no lashes, no beheadings, no cutting off hands, no stone throwing, NO FATWAH, and so on.
2. Muslim women should be given FULL EQUALITY with men - no compulsory burka ever.
3. No girl shall be married before she is 16 or 18 and against her will, at that.
4. ALL children shall be given secular education in basic science, and mathematics.
5. NO GENITAL MUTILATION for anybody. Period.
6. NO ayatollah or Imam shall be allowed to meddle in the matters of statecraft.
7. Only CIVIL laws should govern; not religious laws.
8. ALL dictatorships should pave the way for democratization, in an orderly fashion.
Arabs/Muslims are second to none. But, right now they are mired in religion. That is why they are so lagging behind in science and technology.
103
Simply and beautifully stated. And even here in the "enlightened" West
we have those who wish to control women's reproductive rights; who wish
to tear down the wall between church and state; who wish to teach creationism in public schools; who would institute laws for the sole purpose
of punishing those whose sexual orientations go against the ancient screeds;
and who would curtail our rights to freedom of expression.
we have those who wish to control women's reproductive rights; who wish
to tear down the wall between church and state; who wish to teach creationism in public schools; who would institute laws for the sole purpose
of punishing those whose sexual orientations go against the ancient screeds;
and who would curtail our rights to freedom of expression.
4
CMR, you are correct that Saudi Arabia funded and still funds the madresas all over the world to propagate its brand of Wahhabi interpretation of Islam.
Please see the link where our Secretary of State in a testimony to US Congress talks about our involvement in creating this Frankenstein,
http://bit.ly/1kKmnVM
BTW Genital mutilation has nothing to do with religion it is an African cultural thing.
Please see the link where our Secretary of State in a testimony to US Congress talks about our involvement in creating this Frankenstein,
http://bit.ly/1kKmnVM
BTW Genital mutilation has nothing to do with religion it is an African cultural thing.
3
One should not judge today's Islam solely on verses taken from the Quran just as today's practice of Judaism should not be judged solely on what is written in the Old Testament. There is a passage in Exodus, "Thou shall not seethe a kid in its mother's milk." If that were the last word on Kosher dietary restrictions, Orthodox Jews would have no reason not to be eating cheeseburgers today. But modern Judaism is informed by 2000 years of rabbinic writings that have interpreted these biblical passages. And just as important: Judaism is defined by what is common, everyday Jewish practice. Islam should be judged as Jews would want Judaism to be judged, i.e. on current interpretation and practice.
The Old Testament may spell out some fairly harsh punishment for what seems like some outdated transgressions; but what Jew today, Orthodox or otherwise, thinks this should be the basis for current laws? Yet many Islamic counties embrace Sharia law, which has evolved little in 1400 years, where insulting Mohammed and apostasy are criminal offenses (punishable by death in many countries), domestic violence against a disobedient wife is encouraged and you can have your hands chopped off for stealing a loaf of bread. This IS current practice and I am having a difficult time believing that that this mindset does not give rise to the terrorist who only sees himself as one of the "faithful".
The Old Testament may spell out some fairly harsh punishment for what seems like some outdated transgressions; but what Jew today, Orthodox or otherwise, thinks this should be the basis for current laws? Yet many Islamic counties embrace Sharia law, which has evolved little in 1400 years, where insulting Mohammed and apostasy are criminal offenses (punishable by death in many countries), domestic violence against a disobedient wife is encouraged and you can have your hands chopped off for stealing a loaf of bread. This IS current practice and I am having a difficult time believing that that this mindset does not give rise to the terrorist who only sees himself as one of the "faithful".
50
Dastardly attack on Sept 11, Nov 28 Mumbai massacre and Paris attack reveal more than anything huge distance Islam has traveled away from the true sprite of original Islam. When the religion was founded it was celebrated heralding a liberating force, a kinetic social, cultural and intellectual dynamics for equality, justice and humane values.
Pathetically "Islam seems to have acquired a pathological strain. Indeed, it seems to me that we have internalised all those historic and contemporary western representations of Islam and Muslims that have been demonising us for centuries. We now actually wear the garb, I have to confess, of the very demons that the West has been projecting on our collective personality" Prof. Ziauddin Sardar in essay "Rethinking-islam".
Root cause is the failure to encourage independent reasoning. Context of the Quran and sayings of Prophet Muhammad immutably frozen. and declared eternal. Tragic result is going back to frozen and ossified history. No wonder Muslims have emotional attachment to Islam with no relevance to daily lives apart from symbolic rituals.
Learned Prof. Ziauddin says "freezing of interpretation, the closure of the gates of ijtihad, has had a devastating effect on Muslim thought and action. In particular, it has produced... three metaphysical catastrophes: the elevation of the Shariah to the level of the Divine, with the consequent removal of agency from the believers, and the equation of Islam with the State."
Pathetically "Islam seems to have acquired a pathological strain. Indeed, it seems to me that we have internalised all those historic and contemporary western representations of Islam and Muslims that have been demonising us for centuries. We now actually wear the garb, I have to confess, of the very demons that the West has been projecting on our collective personality" Prof. Ziauddin Sardar in essay "Rethinking-islam".
Root cause is the failure to encourage independent reasoning. Context of the Quran and sayings of Prophet Muhammad immutably frozen. and declared eternal. Tragic result is going back to frozen and ossified history. No wonder Muslims have emotional attachment to Islam with no relevance to daily lives apart from symbolic rituals.
Learned Prof. Ziauddin says "freezing of interpretation, the closure of the gates of ijtihad, has had a devastating effect on Muslim thought and action. In particular, it has produced... three metaphysical catastrophes: the elevation of the Shariah to the level of the Divine, with the consequent removal of agency from the believers, and the equation of Islam with the State."
21
You state that "[Islam] was celebrated heralding a liberating force, a kinetic social, cultural and intellectual dynamics for equality, justice and humane values." What about the oppression of women, which is also a part of the Koran (remember, testimony by a woman is only worth half of that of a man)?
3
Religion has caused far more grief than the consolation it supposedly provides.
21
I would disagree! I am not a religious person, but know many that are and it provides them with great comfort. And as I age, I find all at the end of life, turning to God, whether they were 'religious' or not. And they too find great comfort.
Right. Read the Quran, and most important, stay in Pakistan, or any muslim country of your choosing, but stay out of the West.
24
The US has about 50,000 Muslims entering every year. And Obama has approved another (Syrian refugees) 50,000 over the next 5 years. Those are 'legal' immigrants. But with our bloated budgets for government, we still cannot track those here on VISAs that stay illegally.
No, extremists are not staying out of the west.
No, extremists are not staying out of the west.
2
If you are a bright student, you quickly absorb the lesson of your teacher. The Palestinians where exporting knowledge, arts and poetry before 1948, and most of the teachers in the countries around them were Palestinians. There came the European teacher, killed, imprisoned, or displaced everyone, blockaded the rest and branded them terrorists if they resisted. Then the Saudis came next. They were living happy in the desert and there came the same teacher- brain washed them, trained them and sent them to kill in Afghanistan, and the story is repeated again and again even against democratically elected governments as in Algeria, Hamas and Mursi. Egypt is going to be next. The Egyptian used to talk for weeks about how someone is injured and never new a single terrorist attack inside the mainland. Now it is changing
We can eliminate terrorism only if life is seen (not only declared) to be sacred and any person who dies unjustly have a proper inquest and the perpetrators are punished. But if we continue as we do, killing without a trial (in any name and anywhere, it does not matter), I am afraid things will not improve but could get worse. Religion is not the real reason. People will find excuses somehow to do what they do. Marxists and Maoists groups are examples. I do not think I am stating a new in saying that without justice, a lasting peace can never come.
We can eliminate terrorism only if life is seen (not only declared) to be sacred and any person who dies unjustly have a proper inquest and the perpetrators are punished. But if we continue as we do, killing without a trial (in any name and anywhere, it does not matter), I am afraid things will not improve but could get worse. Religion is not the real reason. People will find excuses somehow to do what they do. Marxists and Maoists groups are examples. I do not think I am stating a new in saying that without justice, a lasting peace can never come.
8
Anyone who thinks the Taliban did not impose a particularly cruel & violent form of Islam over the people of Afghanistan, particularly against women and different ethnic groups, well before the US invasion in 2001 has read a different history than I have...
The quest for power & the conveniently justifying voice of 'God'... a very old & very often extremely violent story no matter which religion. The same bible that many quote preaching peace also put people on the rack, burned 'witches' and launched the crusades, to name but a few. Stupid & cruel is one thing; stupid & cruel with a god complex - something altogether different.
The quest for power & the conveniently justifying voice of 'God'... a very old & very often extremely violent story no matter which religion. The same bible that many quote preaching peace also put people on the rack, burned 'witches' and launched the crusades, to name but a few. Stupid & cruel is one thing; stupid & cruel with a god complex - something altogether different.
43
It is easy to find brutality in the name of religion hundreds of years ago. However, I haven't seen witch burning or the crusades happen for a very long time. And I don't recall anyone just walking into a building and killing everyone because they weren't christian.
Every civilization has had murders, corruption, and slavery. Every one. But it's 2014 and that is no longer acceptable. Maybe because we eliminated the caste systems, or at least minimized them (India still into that, but). Maybe it's because we hear about life outside our villages - starting with the printing press, mass education, and now media through cyber networks.
The clerics fear information and education more than non-believers. Why? Because people might think for themselves and that is not acceptable.
Every civilization has had murders, corruption, and slavery. Every one. But it's 2014 and that is no longer acceptable. Maybe because we eliminated the caste systems, or at least minimized them (India still into that, but). Maybe it's because we hear about life outside our villages - starting with the printing press, mass education, and now media through cyber networks.
The clerics fear information and education more than non-believers. Why? Because people might think for themselves and that is not acceptable.
1
Perhaps we should leave to the clerics and religious scholars the discussion of whether Islam or any other religion support violence - and under what conditions.
It light of this article, it might be more instructive to consider and research these two related topics:
1. What portion of violent acts, particularly killing, are justified by the perpetrator on religious grounds? For instance, compare terrorists that justify violent actions based on Islamist teaching with right to life advocates that justify violence against abortion-supporters based on Christian teaching.
2. When violent acts come with religious justification to what extent do respective religiously leaders actively condemn those acts? To what extent do they "waffle", and do they also act in their religious community to correct the perversion of their beliefs?
It light of this article, it might be more instructive to consider and research these two related topics:
1. What portion of violent acts, particularly killing, are justified by the perpetrator on religious grounds? For instance, compare terrorists that justify violent actions based on Islamist teaching with right to life advocates that justify violence against abortion-supporters based on Christian teaching.
2. When violent acts come with religious justification to what extent do respective religiously leaders actively condemn those acts? To what extent do they "waffle", and do they also act in their religious community to correct the perversion of their beliefs?
8
I think we know the answer...Probably 3 abortionist killed in the past 15 years and thousands of Americans here at home.
4
Here we go again with the "Christians do it too" instead of a blanket condemnation of these horrific acts. Yes, it is wrong for Christian fundamentalists to bomb clinics or kill doctors, but let's compare the toll they've taken. Dr's Gunn, Slepiak, Tiller and Britton, two receptionists in Brookline, Ma and a guard killed by Eric Rudolf. That is more than two decades. Twelve people were killed in France by Islamic extremists yesterday alone. All are reprehensible, but let's not pretend that the threats are anywhere near similar.
1
Also consider the Israeli settler movement, their political influence and the religious justifications. This stance has led to a reign of murder of innocents disproportionate to Palestinian actions.
1
While 100s are killed everyday a few, under 10, we mislead when we blame just one group.
1
All that is required for evil to prevail is for good people to be silent about it and do nothing in response. The world has long been waiting for a consistent, vigorous, doctrinal, ideological, and unending practical fighting-back by good Moslems against radical, extreme and murderous Islamists. If that now finally happens, in part as an outcome of this Paris massacre, that would be a gold and silver lining more significant than the horrors which helped create it.
30
"The rash of horrific attacks in the name of Islam is spurring an anguished debate among Muslims here in the heart of the Islamic world about why their religion appears cited so often as a cause for violence and bloodshed."
Looking at the cradle of the 3 monotheistic religions may give a clue.
Judeo-Christian - although not innocent of bloodshed - were 'born' against a background of suffering slavery, persecution.
Although often violated for political purpose - at their core there is the yearning for freedom and justice, a fountain of strength whenever a renewal movement is awakening.
Islam is different!
It was 'born' against a tribal desert environment, where one must be 'either with us or against us'; was 'born' by an orphan raised by an uncle.
That orphan, having the job of managing the business interests of a wealthy widow some decade his senior, ended marrying her - or, safe to say 'she married him'.
Upon her death he inherited all her wealth.
With the POWER it has given him he tried to enter Meccan aristocracy - and failed. Failing in Mecca, he succeeded in Medina.
Medina's opposition was put to the sword.
So there you have it: POWER AND BLOODSHED was at the core of Islam's birth, notwithstanding the legend of the angel Gabriel - or God himself - revelation to Muhammad.
Present day's radicals are merely model themselves after their 'prophet', hence they must be considered 'true Muslims'.
Looking at the cradle of the 3 monotheistic religions may give a clue.
Judeo-Christian - although not innocent of bloodshed - were 'born' against a background of suffering slavery, persecution.
Although often violated for political purpose - at their core there is the yearning for freedom and justice, a fountain of strength whenever a renewal movement is awakening.
Islam is different!
It was 'born' against a tribal desert environment, where one must be 'either with us or against us'; was 'born' by an orphan raised by an uncle.
That orphan, having the job of managing the business interests of a wealthy widow some decade his senior, ended marrying her - or, safe to say 'she married him'.
Upon her death he inherited all her wealth.
With the POWER it has given him he tried to enter Meccan aristocracy - and failed. Failing in Mecca, he succeeded in Medina.
Medina's opposition was put to the sword.
So there you have it: POWER AND BLOODSHED was at the core of Islam's birth, notwithstanding the legend of the angel Gabriel - or God himself - revelation to Muhammad.
Present day's radicals are merely model themselves after their 'prophet', hence they must be considered 'true Muslims'.
47
So, Jak, do you have a source for all of those "facts" about Muhammad and the origins of Islam?
hmm..i see you have clearly what appears to be a doctorate in islamic studies and the Quran. let me clarify your inaccurate and false narrative about the Prophet (pbuh). the muslims and the Prophet fled from makkah after being persecuted for years at the hands of tribal enemies of islam, those individuals who had engaged in idol worship and were the most powerful rulers in the area. they wanted the status quo, as it kept them empowered. to have a man preach against their idols meant they did everything they could to stop him. this means the worst forms of both physical and economic harrasment. the muslims never ONCE retaliated. they suffered at the hands of the makkan tribes for years. it was then the Prophet (pbuh) made a decision to migrate to medina, where a civil society based on respect and tolerance was nurtured. peace treaties were made with the jews who had lived in the areas for years and they were assured they would not be harmed and could practice their religion. its a different story they plotted to kill the Prophet on several occasions and broke these treaties. eventually the muslims became powerful and viable enough that they were able to re-take makkah. upon their re-entrance, all of the Prophet (pbuh) previous foes were forgiven and not a single man woman or child was killed or put to death. not one. even the woman who killed the Prophets uncle and ate his liver. clemency and leniency was shown. is this the islam you have heard of or any one in the west?
1
Jak, one important item you fail to mention is that Mohamed was deeply attracted to the structure and rituals of Jewish theology, to the point of attending philosophical debates with Jewish scholars who ended up ridiculing him for his claims to direct contact with their shared god. Hence the deep roots of anti-semitism in the history of both Sunni and Shia Islam.
1
There is another take on this: European countries with extensive social systems need a low wage labour pool to do the work that their own citizens no longer want to do. So pressed to find low wage help, they completely ignore the cultural incompatibiliy of many of the people they bring in. These people, fester in the periphery and become another labour pool. This time for extremists in the Middle East and North Africa: They are perfectly placed within European countries as citizens for attacks on the society.
Maybe less (not saying none at all) welfare state, more work ethic, better thought out immigration policies that keep the long term in view. Its not as if people didn't comment on this decades ago when immigration was being increased. What does a man who expects his wife to be fully covered in public have in common with a woman who sees nothing wrong with wearing a short skirts and a tank top in public?
Maybe less (not saying none at all) welfare state, more work ethic, better thought out immigration policies that keep the long term in view. Its not as if people didn't comment on this decades ago when immigration was being increased. What does a man who expects his wife to be fully covered in public have in common with a woman who sees nothing wrong with wearing a short skirts and a tank top in public?
19
The workers that come to the US to do the jobs that Americans do not want to do are primarily Central American yet we do not hear of them attacking US citizens. Our immigration system needs to be fixed but for anyone complaining about the pool of immigrants we get here be glad that you don't live in Europe. What is happening in France should be a warning sign.
2
If close to a million French pieds noir could be forced out of North Africa in the name of decolonization, a similar, coerced reverse flow of Muslims out of France could well occur in response to a whole spectrum of behaviors totally at odds with the ideals and norms of the French Republic. Vive La France!
2
I am surprised by your comment. You must be aware that people that are citizens within the EU can easily immigrate to another country within the EU. They are not invited as a source of low wage workers by the country. Quite the opposite - as I'm sure you are experiencing in London. Many have come to the UK for the welfare and social nets. Those that are wealthy are coming to buy and live as they are finding their own countries unstable, and they are likely to lose everything when the government decides to take it. That group as well as those that come for the welfare, expect the UK to honor their beliefs. Not tolerate, but honor. Read your own papers. What about those Pakistanis that kidnap, rape, at prostitute the little girls outside London? They didn't do that to Muslim girls. What about the school in Birmingham, where the majority of students are now Muslim and the parents are demanding they implement Sharia law?
It is not that your government is looking for low wage workers and is ignoring the cultural incompatitibility. It is the political correctness and the guilt many feel over decades of colonialization that is blinding your eyes to action. Sad. But the extremes (most?) in the Islam religion are counting on you to feel exactly that - it appears it is working.
It is not that your government is looking for low wage workers and is ignoring the cultural incompatitibility. It is the political correctness and the guilt many feel over decades of colonialization that is blinding your eyes to action. Sad. But the extremes (most?) in the Islam religion are counting on you to feel exactly that - it appears it is working.
1
David Kirkpatrick seems intent on being an apologist for the Muslim Brotherhood, rather than a journalist. When MB took power he simply regurgitated their PR about being a non-violent movement. But Egyptians know perfectly well that MB instigated violence in incidents too numerous to count. When he interviewed Morsi it was the most stunningly softball interview I have seen in the Times of a world leader (as Morsi was at the time). I hope the Times finds a more serious journalist for their Cairo bureau.
60
I would like to see "the West" take a good hard look at itself and ask how did some Arabs become so angry that they hijacked two passenger planes and flew them into two skyscrapers? History provides the answers, but as most commentators seem to suffer from short term memory loss or straight out ignorance, the West jusst keeps on making the same mistakes. Surely the Crusades were enough, but apparently not. The West has continued to interfere in the Middle East ever since. Two recent wars in Afghanistan and Iraq have seen those countries devastated and people killed and displaced in their hundreds of thousands. You don't suppose that might upset some people and radicalise them?
111
Do tell us what exactly America was doing prior to 9/11 in the Middle East that ticked off so many Muslims such that they became mass murderers in the name of religion? There were 8 incidents of Islamic terrorism on US interests during the Clinton years. 9/11 was just the capstone to the madness.
6
The Boston bomber, who happens to be Eastern European made America to believe him to be common 'white'. but after the terror strike, America and Europe will never know which 'white' is 'patriotic' white.
You an invite a guest to your house and could possibly let him stay for few days but not for years otherwise he starts in believing he is a member of the house and fights with you.
This is what happen in Austraila, with recent terror attack.
You an invite a guest to your house and could possibly let him stay for few days but not for years otherwise he starts in believing he is a member of the house and fights with you.
This is what happen in Austraila, with recent terror attack.
1
Yes frustrated, angry people should always have the right to commit mass murder.
7
I would like to believe M. Steven Fish's conclusion that Islam is "absolutely" not violent. I would like to believe that because he studied a 15 year period ending in 2008, he may have missed a few things, and thus his notion that Islamic militant terrorism occurs almost always "in the context of larger conflicts", like the US invasion of Afghanistan or the takeover in Algeria, is somehow flawed.
Or perhaps I have just over-emphasized small things like floggings and executions in Saudia Arabia, stonings in Afghanistan, the violence of ISIS and Boko Haram, the vengeful savagery perpetrated by both Muslims and Christians in CAR, or the horrific events in Darfur, to name just a few.
I am pretty sure that a lot of the Crusaders must have looked pretty much like the photos of Boko Haram and ISIS fighters, and probably behaved at least as viciously. So there is hope, perhaps, that eight hundred or a thousand years from now this fire will burn itself out.
Or perhaps I have just over-emphasized small things like floggings and executions in Saudia Arabia, stonings in Afghanistan, the violence of ISIS and Boko Haram, the vengeful savagery perpetrated by both Muslims and Christians in CAR, or the horrific events in Darfur, to name just a few.
I am pretty sure that a lot of the Crusaders must have looked pretty much like the photos of Boko Haram and ISIS fighters, and probably behaved at least as viciously. So there is hope, perhaps, that eight hundred or a thousand years from now this fire will burn itself out.
233
Yes, the crusaders and Christianity were so much less brutal. Maybe you need to read about the Peoples' Crusade, the Children's Crusade, the overrun of Constantinople... One could easily drop the religious context and look at both the crusades and the current conflict for what it really is, economic war or maybe even as a race war.
Given that Islam is about 1400 years old, and that in the 1400s Christians were acting like teeming hoards of homicidal maniacs, perhaps the world merely has to wait for Islam to evolve out of medieval barbarism. Perhaps a Reformation from within the religion is what is needed, not unlike the Protestant Reformation of the 1500s.
2
Ms. Rose is incorrect. Hatred never "burns out" viz., the German slaughter of the Jews of Europe and the complicity, forced or otherwise, of those of other nations.
One key issue that differentiates Islam from Judaism and Christianity is its prioritization on martyrdom. This changes the thinking of many of its adherents as they look at death as a goal. While I am oversimplifying, in Judaism you are allowed to break virtually any rule of law in order to save a life. People who commit suicide are not allowed to be buried with other Jews as they have committed the ultimate sin of taking their own life. Christianity, likewise, focusses on peace. In Islam suicide bombers are glorified as martyrs, with males to be rewarded with virgins in heaven. The other major religions look down on taking one’s own life.
As this article points out, a reading of the holy books of all three religions will find multiple advocacies of violence that were accepted as norms in different times that are no longer accepted as norms today. However, the lower prioritization of life, in particular one owns life, leads many followers of Islam down a different path.
As Westerners it may be hard for us to understand this but the people who live in the Mideast who want to practice any of the three religions in the context of a secular society deal with it every day and understand it all too well.
As this article points out, a reading of the holy books of all three religions will find multiple advocacies of violence that were accepted as norms in different times that are no longer accepted as norms today. However, the lower prioritization of life, in particular one owns life, leads many followers of Islam down a different path.
As Westerners it may be hard for us to understand this but the people who live in the Mideast who want to practice any of the three religions in the context of a secular society deal with it every day and understand it all too well.
143
I am adamantly opposed to ALL religions, but I thought this interesting. In a recent interview, an Egyptian who converted to Christianity described it this way. "I was 12 when I first became aware of Christianity. It struck me, that Islam asked us to die for our god, but the Christian god sacrificed his son so his followers could live." In later years he converted, of course was labeled an apostate, disowned by family and promised death should he return to Egypt.
1
Christianity does not prioritize martyrdom? Um, that's kind of our thing, like... in a major way.
1
As a Christian, I must point out that everything you say about Islam's " prioritization on martyrdom" could have been said about Christianity at some point. In fact, I remember well how my childhood Roman Catholic education taught me, from the age of 6, to glorify martyrdom. In fact, I was taught that martyrdom was the only way outside of confession to a priest to guarantee entrance into Heaven, regardless of what sins I might have committed.
It would be more fruitful to look at other historic reasons for the existence of Muslim violence, as other responders have done here, to come up with possible solutions.
It would be more fruitful to look at other historic reasons for the existence of Muslim violence, as other responders have done here, to come up with possible solutions.
I have been fortunate enough to visit several Islamic countries, along with Jewish, Shinto and Buddhist centric nations. My experience leads me to believe that neither the people nor their religions are inherently violent.
On the other hand, I have seen elements of all but the Buddhists, who preached and practiced hatred using religion as basis. One can see it clearly in the US and most nations of the world every day.
Does this make a particular religion bad? I think not. Are there people who abuse religious beliefs to further their view of the world and to gain power? Absolutely! History is strewn with these examples.
Religion is used as a tool to control and provide false hope by the unscrupulous. As long as there are people who feel hopeless, as outsiders and in poverty, there will be those who seek power who will use whatever methods they can to gain advantage and total disregard of the costs to others.
Too many wish to fan the old flames of perceived hatred between the two major world religions. Economic gain and domination is the real enemy.
On the other hand, I have seen elements of all but the Buddhists, who preached and practiced hatred using religion as basis. One can see it clearly in the US and most nations of the world every day.
Does this make a particular religion bad? I think not. Are there people who abuse religious beliefs to further their view of the world and to gain power? Absolutely! History is strewn with these examples.
Religion is used as a tool to control and provide false hope by the unscrupulous. As long as there are people who feel hopeless, as outsiders and in poverty, there will be those who seek power who will use whatever methods they can to gain advantage and total disregard of the costs to others.
Too many wish to fan the old flames of perceived hatred between the two major world religions. Economic gain and domination is the real enemy.
13
Excellent commentary... I agree with you wholeheartedly. I would only suggest that, if you look at contemporary ultra-nationalist movements in Myanmar and Sri Lanka, you will find Buddhist priests (Kirama Wimalajothi and Galagoda Aththe Gnanasaara in Sri Lanka and U Thuzana in Myanmar) at the forefront.
One of the fundamental issues is that Islam does not separate church and state as we and many western nations do. Rights are established and upheld by the state, and Religious practices must fit within those laws. So the state has the higher perch. Not so in Islam - it seems nothing can come before Islamic law.
Until Islam finds a way to integrate its laws and practices with other cultures and legal systems, we will have continuing conflict.
Until Islam finds a way to integrate its laws and practices with other cultures and legal systems, we will have continuing conflict.
56
Agreed. Separation of "church" and state is essential to the well being of both "church" and state. Even fundamentalist christianists need to understand this. Where Christianity is the official state religion the church has become a stultified necropolis (Scandinavia). Where Islam is the official state religion, the state has become a medieval theocracy (Saudi Arabia). The worst thing for the state and the religion is to remove that separation. The two can not co-exist. They must maintain separate houses.
3
If Islam is a religion of peace, and I see no reason to accept that as fact yet, then when will the supposed 80-90% of Muslims and their teachers roar in unison. Roar that the extremists are hijacking their religion. Roar that these interpretations of the teachings are the real blasphemy. When will they show the courage to drown out the minority of religious leaders who promote death and destruction as God's will. They have the ability but have yet to address the problem. And the longer we have this violence directly connected to Islam the longer Islam and it's people will be mistrusted.
619
Non-extremist Muslims don't see these acts as representing them or their religion. Are you out on the streets protesting the bombing of abortion clinics in the name of your religion? I didn't think so.
Yes because when the Pakistani Taliban killed all those children at that school, I'm sure all of Pakistan and the rest of the Muslim world were silent.
I'm still waiting for the roar against US-sponsored torture. Our cherished system has been hijacked by the CIA et al, but we have yet to address the problem.
And since when has public opinion counted in the struggle to restrict assault rifles in this country?
The point being that it is very easy to have one's religion or one's country hijacked. I don't know when roaring about it leads to real change, even in a relatively well-ordered society.
And since when has public opinion counted in the struggle to restrict assault rifles in this country?
The point being that it is very easy to have one's religion or one's country hijacked. I don't know when roaring about it leads to real change, even in a relatively well-ordered society.
"Some people who feel crushed or ignored will go toward extremism, and they use religion because that is what they have at hand."
SAID FERJANI, an official of Tunisia's mainstream Islamist party, Ennahda, speaking about the broader phenomenon of violence in the name of Islam.
SAID FERJANI, an official of Tunisia's mainstream Islamist party, Ennahda, speaking about the broader phenomenon of violence in the name of Islam.
1
I think it's worth noting that Muslim leaders rarely seem to condemn these attacks and, to my knowledge, have never offered any manpower in preventing further attacks.
31
This is the best and most balanced discussion of the relationship between Islam and violence that I've yet to read in a mainstream newspaper. I only hope that other "outsiders" not directly involved will read it and ponder its implications. I'm not sure if anyone among us really knows the "answer", because I doubt if there IS any one answer, but we have to keep searching for the right questions. It's taken us many years to reach this point, and we're not going to get out of it overnight.
4
Maybe immigration isn't such a good thing after all.
29
There have been many religious groups persecuted throughout history. Most notably the attempt to commit genocide against the Jews during the Holocaust. But not one of these religions has used these tragedies as an excuse for violent extremism. Even the Jewish people today ask simply to be left alone on their tiny piece of land in the desert. They do not try to kidnap and enslave hundreds of innocent children in Africa, or blow up buildings in New York, or kill journalists in France when the news coverage isn't favorable to them. No, the problem with violent Islamic extremism is not a downtrodden people fighting back with whatever is at hand. The problem is clearly Islam. Only Islam justifies slavery, torture and murder. The leader of Egypt is correct; its up to the leaders of Islam to create a religious revolution and rid their culture of these justifications.
31
Can't help but wonder if some of the real underlying issue is when leaders or selected portions of society are given access to immense wealth, education, and riches while groups are left with nothing we see a growing & violent revolt. Whether it be gang of alienated young black youth men in the U.S. or groups of outcast in the Mid East and elsewhere - that are told they deserve nothing and are "less than" because of their lack of birthright - is religion or skin color used as one explaining reason for the feeling of alienation and anger. Just like a "gang member" is drawn to any strength that offers protection & a sense of belonging here - the same operates with violent results elsewhere. If a chosen class is given total access to wealth and power due to oil money simply because of what family they were born into - is this the seed that gives rise to such hatred & violence?
2
If poverty and alienation are root causes of Jihad how do you explain the radicalization of Osama bin Laden? He was the son of a billionaire, himself a millionaire and his family had very close ties to the house of Saud. Osama bin Laden was part of " the 1 %" led a life of privilege yet ended up being the most famous terrorist in recent history.
1
It's not the religion itself, but how it trying to use. Islamic extremists it is radically minded offshoot of Islam. We need to fight terrorism, its scope has exceeded all limits. However, it would be foolish to believe that all Islam evil in itself. No. It is ISIS, Al-Qaeda and other extremist groups who must be destroyed with powerful onslaught as they are evil.
1
A little bit of any religion can deliver good. An overdose of any of them is a formula for fanaticism. Which rarely delivers peace or civil conduct.
11
Pretty wise words Bob.
Remember that ancient pearl of wisdom which says you don't judge a people by what they say but by their actions! After all words are cheap. If the peaceful Muslims who follow the peaceful form Islam are really against the violent form Islam, they would demonstrate it in the same way they fill the streets waving banners and shouting at any given pretext or presumed insult to their Prophet? So why are the streets not filled with these peaceful Muslims waving their banners and shouting not in our name? ‘ Well,’ there are only so many possibilities why the mass demonstrations by these peaceful Muslims are not happening?
1.They fear being attacked by the not so peaceful Muslims.
2.They secretly ‘agree’ with the actions of the violent Muslims but don't want to be openly associated to such violence in case of reprisals from the host nation.
3. They're only nominal Muslims and don't believe there peaceful form of worship is worth defending.
4. Their counterfeit Muslims that can't tell anyone within the community without being ostracised.
5. They truly believe in fighting for their faith but are to cowardly to do so.
6. They know in their hearts, Islam really is a violent ideology and to demonstrate otherwise would be to hypocritical.
7.There all secret atheists.
So why are they not on the streets in there thousands protesting against this violence, in defence of their peaceful religion??
1.They fear being attacked by the not so peaceful Muslims.
2.They secretly ‘agree’ with the actions of the violent Muslims but don't want to be openly associated to such violence in case of reprisals from the host nation.
3. They're only nominal Muslims and don't believe there peaceful form of worship is worth defending.
4. Their counterfeit Muslims that can't tell anyone within the community without being ostracised.
5. They truly believe in fighting for their faith but are to cowardly to do so.
6. They know in their hearts, Islam really is a violent ideology and to demonstrate otherwise would be to hypocritical.
7.There all secret atheists.
So why are they not on the streets in there thousands protesting against this violence, in defence of their peaceful religion??
38
Yes the headlines are indeed alarming but was it really Islam per se? Take the Paris killings for example, how could the actions of a handful two, three people- be taken to apply to an entire faith system? Nothing justifies a killing without a proper trial and conviction but then even that is a problem now for some individuals., The unjustified killing of the Paris Charlie Hebdo newspaper journalist notwithstanding, nothing in the despicable acts makes Islam culpable as many are wont to make out.
Whatever justification the killers may have lies wrapped up in the convulsions and contradictions of the excesses of the Charlie Hebdo - a name deliberately chosen to make jest of the Shariah- newspaper editors and the rather too liberal meaning attached to freedom to express oneself. The issue is not so much a matter of press freedom since the very Western nations now blaming Islam are very culpable in foisting absolute dictators on the Arab nations. besides, Islam is well beyond the Arabs even though the original language of Islam id the Arabic language. There far too many rules on the interpretation than the insinuation being made on the straight Qur'anic text that many read and apply to suit their purposes not so much as a matter of faith.
Whatever justification the killers may have lies wrapped up in the convulsions and contradictions of the excesses of the Charlie Hebdo - a name deliberately chosen to make jest of the Shariah- newspaper editors and the rather too liberal meaning attached to freedom to express oneself. The issue is not so much a matter of press freedom since the very Western nations now blaming Islam are very culpable in foisting absolute dictators on the Arab nations. besides, Islam is well beyond the Arabs even though the original language of Islam id the Arabic language. There far too many rules on the interpretation than the insinuation being made on the straight Qur'anic text that many read and apply to suit their purposes not so much as a matter of faith.
1
``Islam is well beyond the Arabs''. Indeed, except Salafi beliefs have now spread in all Muslim majority countries. Even if we ignore Boko Haram in your own country Nigeria, and restrict the discussions to only the so-called moderate Islamic countries. Malayasia, Indonesia, Bangladesh have all in recent years gone more and more towards hardline political Islam. The violence instigated by the Jamaat in Bangladesh has reached India through the porous borer between these countries. ``Fighters'' from these countries have joined the IS. Saudis have spent enormous sums of money to spread their belief in these moderate countries, and unless this is stopped, there will be more trouble in the future.
2
Charlie's name has nothing to do wwith the Shariah. It is a satirical journal that has rediculed every aspect of western society. Your comments are ignorant and show that yo have no understanding of freedom of expression;
3
Christians and Muslims collectively spend an inordinate amount of time trying to explain their dogmatically drenched ideologies through myths, fairytales and a tremendous amount of hearsay, but very little on actual and verifiable historic fact. The problem with faith mongering or preaching is it is so open ended and subject to interpretation that it can be twisted around to justify just about anything, including genocide, holocausts, terrorism and war. In my opinion what we're experiencing today is a 21st century version of the Crusades where Christianity and Islam are fighting over who controls access to the Kingdom of Heaven.
9
Amazing how people like Dean Marshall, throw the 'baby out with the dirty bath water'. To confuse the Great COMMENDMANT of loving God with all your heart and your neighbor as yourself (both in the Tanakh and the Gospels), with selfish use of power and control, is disingenuous.
1
And the most idiotic fact about this warfare is that there isn't a shred of evidence or proof that the diddely gods of either religion and its 'heaven' actually exist. Isn't that amazing??? Another of the reasons why Entomologists claim that cockroaches are more successful life forms than humans... due to this bit of utter stupidity called religion.
3
"Others ... insist that the sources of the violence are alienation and resentment, not theology. They argue that the authoritarian rulers of Arab states — who have tried for decades to control Muslim teaching and the application of Islamic law — have set off a violent backlash expressed in religious ideas and language." If this doesn't sound like a description of Iran, then what would? And Pakistan? It has supported -- even worked with -- the radicals, allowing them space within their nation. How many children were slaughter last month?
Really: who started this? Remember the Soviet Union's invasion of Afghanistan 35 years ago? Anyone hear of the Taliban or Osama bin Laden before that?
Really: who started this? Remember the Soviet Union's invasion of Afghanistan 35 years ago? Anyone hear of the Taliban or Osama bin Laden before that?
3
There are thousands of sects in Islam and each considers itself to have the only key to heaven. Each sect does not mind its own business; it tries to convert others to their own prejudiced version of Islam. It is not just this passionate belief of being the one and only custodian of the truth; it is about 'We are the one and only best, while the rest including other sects and sub sects within Islam all being misguided and worst'. Thus there is a lot of mistrust and hate growing up. When hate enters the mind it does not come alone. It brings with it jealousy, confusion, anger, resentment etc. hate generates toxic biochemicals that weaken the brain.
Fortunately most Muslims have moved on but a significant fringe have converted their own frustrations into blaming the West for their own failings.
What Islam needs is a Martin Luther who emphasizes the finer teachings of the Koran. The Prophet Mohammad has said, "Anyone who does not believe in Jesus Christ is not a Muslim" and, "If the knowledge you need exists in China, then go there". I am willing to stick my neck out if other Muslims will join me.
Fortunately most Muslims have moved on but a significant fringe have converted their own frustrations into blaming the West for their own failings.
What Islam needs is a Martin Luther who emphasizes the finer teachings of the Koran. The Prophet Mohammad has said, "Anyone who does not believe in Jesus Christ is not a Muslim" and, "If the knowledge you need exists in China, then go there". I am willing to stick my neck out if other Muslims will join me.
33
Sajidkhan said it right not to blame others for own fault lines. All we need is to educate & adustments with others instead daydreaming for heavens & hell. Forget about past which has parted & dreams for great future in heavens no one have ever experienced. Just learn to stay in presence & try to make best out of it with love & peaceful coexistence with all around us.
1
Thank you! As someone who reads Pakistani newspapers online, and is very aware of how the Sunni extremists there have gone all out there to kill Shias and Ahmedis (the Gov't itself declared Ahmedis to be nonMuslims), and have often persecuted Christians under the aegis the blasphemy act, I see the above as a very precise description of what is happening in the minds of Muslim extremists. I wish you success in your venture to form groups that will revolutionize Islam, for the sake of our children, and of the children in Muslim majority countries.
The fact is Islamist militants are killing Westerners in their own countries at a growing and alarming rate. We all know every Muslim is not a terrorist but a faction is openly at war with the west. We may just have to jail Islamists who are citizens and affiliated with the radicals. We can not watch them all 24/7. Affiliation with Islamic radical groups should be akin to treason. Then the 99% of the Muslim population won't have to worry and we can hold true to our values.
We should have a formal declaration of war on groups who we know are at war with us. Congressional approval of declaration of war on each group is necessary. We should clearly and public define the organizations. Our Western constitutions do allow us to protect ourselves. Our thinking about national defense needs to shift from thinking that combatants and spies only belong to countries. We have laws and precedent for that. We have put on train Americans for Treason in the past and all Western democracies have done the same. It's time to declare war on the numerous small organizations that are at war with us and treat their affiliates as combatants.
We should have a formal declaration of war on groups who we know are at war with us. Congressional approval of declaration of war on each group is necessary. We should clearly and public define the organizations. Our Western constitutions do allow us to protect ourselves. Our thinking about national defense needs to shift from thinking that combatants and spies only belong to countries. We have laws and precedent for that. We have put on train Americans for Treason in the past and all Western democracies have done the same. It's time to declare war on the numerous small organizations that are at war with us and treat their affiliates as combatants.
17
Except for the act of highlighting Islamist terrorism in the media while ignoring similar actions by fundamentalist Christians, I see no difference between them. Fundamentalism = fundamentalism. For a myriad of reasons, this is a particularly difficult time for Islam, but the Christian west went through almost identical periods of insecurity and fanatical violence. The Muslims I know are questioning what has happened and discussing remedies openly and rationally. We can get through this together.
124
Seriously, ignoring similar actions by Christians? When exactly was the last time a bunch of Christians got some guns and shot up an office because they didn't like what was said about them? Quit making excuses for a radical evil group of people, who cut off the heads of children, and admit their religion teaches them to kill us.
9
I'm no fan of fundamentalism of any stripe, but I ask you to provide examples of Christian fundamentalists committing 1/100 of the atrocities done in the name of Islam in just this century. Please limit your response to that same timeframe, as bringing up the thousand year old Crusades or the Inquisition five hundred years ago is not a valid comparison.
10
Please inform me of these "similar actions by fundamentalist Christians" in the west that I haven't heard about. I myself cannot name one.
5
I'm not interested in being "governed by Islamic Law"; I see this as part of the core problem with Islam: I was raised to respect other people's religions, but not political ideologies; Islam is both, and its founder was both a religious prophet AND a political leader. From the start Islam was both a religion AND a political empire. The Christian doctrine of separation of Church and State is not part of Islam, hence the idea that people - even non Muslims - should be governed by Islamic Law is central to Islam. (And I'm not interested in being governed by Jewish, Christian, Hindu or Buddhist law either.)
499
While not so true today, a short trip back into the history of the Christian church will show that there was a time when religion and politics were practically inseparable. Beginning with Constantine and later Theodosius. the bond was formed. Forget separation of church and state; the church was the state. To a certain extent I think this is also true in today's nation of Israel.
5
"Christian doctrine'? Separation of Church and State is an 18th century ideal that The United States of America enshrined in its constitution, because of religious persecution and intolerance by the Church of England - a Christian church. There still remains The Church of England which is headed by the Queen. And so on. There were many years of war between the Catholic Church, Protestants and Infidels in Europe.
14
The separation of church and state is not a doctrine of the Christian religion, but of 18th century Enlightenment philosophy.
18
Who attacked them?What kind of distortion of reality is this?This is always the same discourse,somebody is the culprit.1000 years lagging behind in everything and few attempts to change it like Ataturk's in Turkey.Are the Not adjusted from other religions going out and killing fellow citizens who don't agree with them?
“Some people who feel crushed or ignored will go toward extremism, and they use religion because that is what they have at hand,” said Said Ferjani, an official of Tunisia’s mainstream Islamist party, Ennahda, speaking about the broader phenomenon of violence in the name of Islam. “If you are attacked and you have a fork in your hand, you will fight back with a fork.”
“Some people who feel crushed or ignored will go toward extremism, and they use religion because that is what they have at hand,” said Said Ferjani, an official of Tunisia’s mainstream Islamist party, Ennahda, speaking about the broader phenomenon of violence in the name of Islam. “If you are attacked and you have a fork in your hand, you will fight back with a fork.”
1
A religion that depends on human sacrifice to achieve its end of conversion or die sounds much more like a satanic cult than one worthy of peaceful adherents. Time we call these sects by their true name and say that they're diabolical, considering their support of murders that would make Al Capone proud, and their belief in treating all women as lower than their camels...too bad the great USA has to allow so many of these freaks into our country when we know they're only here to exploit our remaining wealth and then brazenly use the money to support anti-American and anti-Western terrorist initiatives, including this latest from al Qaeda in Yemen...
7
Here we go again. No doubt, we will soon be hearing debates over whether this summer's massacre in Gaza reveals a sickness at the heart of Judaism, or whether the US killing of hundreds of thousands of Muslims around the world means that Christianity (more or less) is sick.
No, of course we won't, but why not? "Hypocrisy" is one answer, but there's a little more at work. The difference is this: most modern states, even Israel, which decorates its F16s with the Star of David, distinguish religion and political power to some extent. Most radical Islamist groups conflate them. So the former can exercise murderous political force without any embarrassing hints of religious frenzy, while the latter cannot. The real question is why so many people--including most Americans--are able to overlook, quite superstitiously, the mass killings perpetrated by their eminently secular states.
No, of course we won't, but why not? "Hypocrisy" is one answer, but there's a little more at work. The difference is this: most modern states, even Israel, which decorates its F16s with the Star of David, distinguish religion and political power to some extent. Most radical Islamist groups conflate them. So the former can exercise murderous political force without any embarrassing hints of religious frenzy, while the latter cannot. The real question is why so many people--including most Americans--are able to overlook, quite superstitiously, the mass killings perpetrated by their eminently secular states.
5
Jim, you write "whether the US killing of hundreds of thousands of Muslims around the world means that Christianity (more or less) is sick"
US killing is done in the name of capitalism not Christianity. Or haven't you noticed?
US killing is done in the name of capitalism not Christianity. Or haven't you noticed?
4
All religions are inherently violent. Every single creed in the world, throughout history, has had violent phases and sects.
The reason is very simple: religion empowers its followers to say "I'm always right because I follow the one true god/prophet/revelation/book; only fools/criminals/debauchers would refute this."
Religion, by supplying all the answers, makes independent thought and self-examination unnecessary, if not downright evil. Like state religions such as Nazism or Communism, absolute belief makes unbelievers subhuman. Whether you kill them or convert them, you'll be doing them a favour.
Now, as to the unsubstantiated claim that violent crime is lower in Muslim countries: first, those countries notoriously hide and suppress the reporting of crime (see what happens to a woman who reports rape in Pakistan); second, compare crime statistics, anywhere, between the religious and atheists. The rate of any sort of crime amongst atheists is negligible. The faithful like to say that "there are no atheists in foxholes" (untrue) but can't see that, really, there are almost no atheists in prisons.
The reason is very simple: religion empowers its followers to say "I'm always right because I follow the one true god/prophet/revelation/book; only fools/criminals/debauchers would refute this."
Religion, by supplying all the answers, makes independent thought and self-examination unnecessary, if not downright evil. Like state religions such as Nazism or Communism, absolute belief makes unbelievers subhuman. Whether you kill them or convert them, you'll be doing them a favour.
Now, as to the unsubstantiated claim that violent crime is lower in Muslim countries: first, those countries notoriously hide and suppress the reporting of crime (see what happens to a woman who reports rape in Pakistan); second, compare crime statistics, anywhere, between the religious and atheists. The rate of any sort of crime amongst atheists is negligible. The faithful like to say that "there are no atheists in foxholes" (untrue) but can't see that, really, there are almost no atheists in prisons.
11
My apologies to Jainists. Jainism is the only cult I've ever heard of that has not committed violence. On the contrary, even the Buddhists have massacred them. That they are still around says a great deal about their character and courage.
1
Perhaps you can cite your references for crime rates by atheists and the "no atheists in prison" comment. It's not clear that you can draw the conclusion, in any case, that this means atheists are somehow not violent or that violence is only caused by religion. Doesn't necessarily follow.
3
Thanks. I agree.
The latest outrage in Paris has focused attention on Islam and muslims.
I speak here as an enlightened secular muslim.
Muslims need to look again at the Quranic texts.
The basic problem is very clear. It is that millions of people in the Islamic world do not believe in free speech, freedom of religion, democracy, a secular state, free enterprise and human rights.
Muslims live in a state of denial. They always find scapegoats for extremism and terrorism. Blaming all and sundry for the Islamic world failures. The modern Islamic movements such as ISIS are dragging the Muslim world back to the dark ages and slowly but surely taking us into the abyss.
All Muslims must stand together and not only condemn them but work together to defeat extremists like ISIS. Some critics of Islam blame the strict interpretation of Islam by Wahhabism a Saudi strand of Islam and the teaching of children to curse and hate kuffars for the rise in fundamentalism and extremism. Shouldn't Muslim scholars agree to remove such texts that permit the killing of Kuffars (infidels) just because they are not Muslims? Muslim scholars must agree to revise religious texts that call for Jihad and violence against non-Muslims.
The world is tired of the often repeated mantra that Islam is a religion of peace. People judge Muslims by their actions on the ground against their fellow Muslims, not by slogans. Muslims Must stand up to stop the destruction of a great faith.
The latest outrage in Paris has focused attention on Islam and muslims.
I speak here as an enlightened secular muslim.
Muslims need to look again at the Quranic texts.
The basic problem is very clear. It is that millions of people in the Islamic world do not believe in free speech, freedom of religion, democracy, a secular state, free enterprise and human rights.
Muslims live in a state of denial. They always find scapegoats for extremism and terrorism. Blaming all and sundry for the Islamic world failures. The modern Islamic movements such as ISIS are dragging the Muslim world back to the dark ages and slowly but surely taking us into the abyss.
All Muslims must stand together and not only condemn them but work together to defeat extremists like ISIS. Some critics of Islam blame the strict interpretation of Islam by Wahhabism a Saudi strand of Islam and the teaching of children to curse and hate kuffars for the rise in fundamentalism and extremism. Shouldn't Muslim scholars agree to remove such texts that permit the killing of Kuffars (infidels) just because they are not Muslims? Muslim scholars must agree to revise religious texts that call for Jihad and violence against non-Muslims.
The world is tired of the often repeated mantra that Islam is a religion of peace. People judge Muslims by their actions on the ground against their fellow Muslims, not by slogans. Muslims Must stand up to stop the destruction of a great faith.
40
The Muslim world will never allow the Quran to be revised. The solution is not to revise the religious texts but to recognize that those texts are no longer meaningful to us today. In other words, the solution is for all of us -- regardless of the religion in which we were brought up -- to move beyond religion. A bunch of books written by a few men nearly two thousand years ago cannot possibly tell us how we should behave ourselves today, in a world where we have decided that all humans are equal regardless of race, gender, and sexual orientation, a world increasingly threatened by global warming and environmental destruction. If more people could see that religion is outdated, there would be fewer incidents of Islamic terrorism, as well as fewer abortion-clinic bombings. Young people all over the world should be taught about secular ethics (one does not need religion to be moral), as well as about political action and peaceful protest as a way of fighting for one's beliefs and wishes.
6
"...argued in an interview that the passages in the Bible are descriptive but the Quranic ones are prescriptive. But most scholars say such distinctions are matters of interpretation."
That's a wonderful bit of misdirection. What matters is not what the authors of the religious tracts intended. What matters is how they are intereprted today. And there is a glaring difference there. A few ("fundamentalist") Christians take the Bible as instructions to be followed. Very, very many Muslims do so - and are taught to do so.
If you cannot see the distinction how about a report on the position of apostates and blasphemers? Or have I missed the reports of bible-belt atheists being sentenced to death?
That's a wonderful bit of misdirection. What matters is not what the authors of the religious tracts intended. What matters is how they are intereprted today. And there is a glaring difference there. A few ("fundamentalist") Christians take the Bible as instructions to be followed. Very, very many Muslims do so - and are taught to do so.
If you cannot see the distinction how about a report on the position of apostates and blasphemers? Or have I missed the reports of bible-belt atheists being sentenced to death?
7
It's so embarrassing to read articles like this when the writer and the rest of us know more people have been killed in the name of religion than for any other reason. Christianity has more blood on its hands than most religions, but none perhaps the Jains, are free of murder in the name of God. It doesn't take an education to become your brothers keeper. Or a benevolent government. The perverse attraction of violence is endemic to our character. It is part of who we are, like it or not. We all know the cure, which is free, easy, endless and perfect. Our willingness to embrace it however is not. Love.
4
I don't think you can figure out why Islam seems to inspire some young people to violence by looking at any sacred text. Hatred of the West by Islamic militants arises from justifiable resentments as well as from less easily grasped Western freedoms that might fall in the category of freedom from repression. Open discussion of sexuality, open discussion of feelings and thoughts--the legacy of Western philosophy and psychology--these are probably the tinder starting what may well develop into a raging bonfire of attacks. The experience of these freedoms when you don't want them--when they don't feel like freedoms, but like assaults on morality or decency--is, for Islamic radicals, the justification for attack. The very idea that it is okay to have any thought, that any feeling is okay too, tends to be rejected by many religions, but within the West, Christianity and Judaism have tended to adjust to these ideas to some degree. Islam has not. Whenever the though is equated with the deed (a cartoon that seems disrespectful to me equals an attack and so I can kill you) there's violence.
http://www.thecriticalmom.blogspot.com
http://www.thecriticalmom.blogspot.com
2
I am particularly concerned with the lack of official Muslim condemnation of the atrocities just committed in Paris (and elsewhere) in the name of Allah & Mohammed. (apologies if I am missing some protocol here)
Muslims are being tainted with the same brush and the growing Islamophobia around the world can only bad for all
I urge all responsible Muslims around the world to not only condemn these actions but to visibly march and demonstrate against this behaviour such that the likes of ISIS, Boko Haram etc understand that their behaviour is NOT acceptable to law abiding Muslims, let alone the rest of the world
“I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it.” Voltaire
Muslims are being tainted with the same brush and the growing Islamophobia around the world can only bad for all
I urge all responsible Muslims around the world to not only condemn these actions but to visibly march and demonstrate against this behaviour such that the likes of ISIS, Boko Haram etc understand that their behaviour is NOT acceptable to law abiding Muslims, let alone the rest of the world
“I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it.” Voltaire
10
Islam isn't the problem. Its interpretation is. Unfortunately for its members, discrimination and religious profiling will exist in large numbers in their communities. Not too different from the way one Black guy in America commits a crime and people view it as a scar on the entire race. The funny thing is....what Adam Lanza, the 1st grade killer did in Newtown....is not a reflection on all other white teenage boys. Seems white communities are immune from these types of associations. Lucky them
2
There is NO PROBLEMS WITHIN OR WITH ISLAMIC RELIGION! Mr Kirkpatrick should know better, but he is not telling us the truth, he is just a "mouth" of media propaganda that is used to cover Western armed occupations of Muslim countries and stealing its goods - oil, gold, diamonds, uranium, you name it. We had "Islamic state" formed in Mali coming from nowhere and lead by nobody, there were no Islamic leaders or scholars capable of making it. Only few months we saw who was and why behind its formation. France decided to intervene in Mali, but real aim was not "Islamic state", but newly found uranium main in vicinity. If we know that France is the second largest nuclear fuel producer in the world, and that France has vast number of nuclear power-plants, this is not surprisingly at all. "Islamic state" in Iraq and Syria followed and few thousand people managed to clear 2 Iraqi military divisions (more than 30000 soldiers), only to occupy oil fields and oil refineries in Iraq and Syria. Scenario is the same like in the case of French intervention. Western powers are coming like saviors to eradicate evil Islamic soldiers who are killing everybody and everything. Forces of evil against forces of good. Old and scrubbed story we have heard so many times. And not to forget, when black people are insulted it is called racism, when Jewish people are insulted it is called antisemitism, but when Muslims are insulted it is called "freedom of speech".
Be thankful you can use the Western press to state your views without the threat of death. The West deserves that same freedom.
11
Too many countries in the Arab world exclude women from leadership positions in education, politics, religion, and commerce. By doing so they deny themselves access to half their brainpower and a valuable cultural influence for peace and harmony.
12
It's not just the Middle East. It's Africa, Mylasia , Chechnya. Attacks in the US, Canada, Australia, Denmark... It seems anywhere there are attrocities these days, Islam is in the middle of it.
41
Whatever the underlying reasons, the simple fact that so-called Islamists actually do commit outrageous crimes should be enough to sustain the belief that Islamists commit outrageous crimes. That is not to praise Christianists, Buddists or any other "ists" for their tolerance and humanity, but, recently at least, Islamists have led the disgrace of intolerance and stupidly aggressive "defense" of their religion.
21
The vast majority of people who use Islam as the excuse for their violent behaviors fall into two categories: those thugs and criminals who want power and persuade people that their leadership and power properly comes out of their religious beliefs, or those ignorant and disaffected individuals who express their disenchantment through the same logic of violence that those in power have led them to believe. ISIS or the ayatollahs of Iran fall into the first category. The brothers who murdered the cartoonists fall into the second. Every religion has had its clerical "princes," so nothing unusual there. Every generation has had its unstable individuals who cite religion for their despicable actions. The radical right and radical left pundits exploit these circumstances for their personal advancement, whether monetary or political. What we need is a balanced commitment to the consistent teaching of the common sense principles of human rights to which the vast majority of human beings adhere. That is what is lacking in so many nations!
6
the entire issue is encapsulated in a man boarding a bus, shouting "God is Great" and then shooting Malala Yousafzai in the head...unless and until reasonable Moslem leaders of thought can get their act together and de-Sharia-ize their brand of religion, this madness will continue... but the prospect of that is nil and we are all in for a very rough ride indeed
30
And this is what is one of the main faults of Islam and why we in the WEST do not want it infecting our society. We choose LIBERALISM, FREEDOM. It is not "racism" or bigotry to want to preserve your society's values against foul outside influences. The media and government officials must stop calling anyone racist or intolerant who is a patriot.
"“When a person comes out and promotes his heresy, promotes his debauchery, and justifies his apostasy on the basis that ‘Islam is not good,’ then there is the judiciary,” Sheikh Abdel-Gelil said. “The judiciary will get him.”
"“When a person comes out and promotes his heresy, promotes his debauchery, and justifies his apostasy on the basis that ‘Islam is not good,’ then there is the judiciary,” Sheikh Abdel-Gelil said. “The judiciary will get him.”
11
The vast majority of the Arab-French in France embrace France's values and culture. Do you accept them as French, too, or are they part of the "foul outside influences" you speak of? The answer will, I believe, determine whether you're an intolerant racist or simply a patriot.
3
Christianity and Judaism DONT have trouble explaining away violent verses in the bible. They have evolved. There is hundreds of years of church and rabbinical commentary and exegesis that informs the attitude and conduct of modern Jews and Christians.
The solution to the problem is staring the world in the face. Stop the hand wringing and academic loop de loops. If mainstream Moslem communities and leaders follow the lead of this article and state unequivocally and unambiguously and loudly that Islam is not represented well and not interpreted properly by this call to Jihad and bloodshed that will change the whole discussion.
The world is not against Islam. I'm not and no one I know is and the evidence worldwide points to governments and communities bending over backwards to accommodate Islamic culture AS LONG AS it doesn't come into direct conflict with everyone else's freedoms and way of life.
The solution to the problem is staring the world in the face. Stop the hand wringing and academic loop de loops. If mainstream Moslem communities and leaders follow the lead of this article and state unequivocally and unambiguously and loudly that Islam is not represented well and not interpreted properly by this call to Jihad and bloodshed that will change the whole discussion.
The world is not against Islam. I'm not and no one I know is and the evidence worldwide points to governments and communities bending over backwards to accommodate Islamic culture AS LONG AS it doesn't come into direct conflict with everyone else's freedoms and way of life.
19
Note that while there are passages in the Bible glorifying violence, however, vast majority of Jews and Christians no longer practice the believe that the Bible is the word of God. On the other hand significant majority of the Muslims all over the world believe that Quran is the unaltered word of God. I think this is one of the reasons why it is easy to brainwash using the verses of Quran. Moreover, the idea that dictators across the Muslim world tried to reform Islamic teachings is absolutely wrong. Although the dictators banned religious outfits but in general they promoted conservative religious teachings in schools and colleges which masses have access to. For instance, being brought up in Pakistan I can say that even in the best secular schools from the 1st grade till high school we have at least one religious text book which simply glorifies Islam as the only absolute truth. There are other subjects in the syllabus teaching distorted history and glorifying the conquests of Islam. Even in the science books there are verses from Quran claiming absolute scientific knowledge. Imagine a child being brought up (in considered to be secular schools) with this kind of brainwashing. forget about madrassahs to which at least 50 percent of the population goes where there is only distorted religion taught.
27
@ Emily Khan - I am an American who lived in Finland in 1967-68 and now in the later part of my 20 years in retirement in Sweden try to stay as well informed about the members of the American Congress as possible.
May I suggest that if you were to learn about these members and also examine what is taught in many public schools in the US you might find that the American Right are as ill informed as the muslims to whom you refer.
I appreciate that you speak from first hand knowledge about Pakistan and your observations on Pakistan are useful. Most of the mostly young muslims I know here in Sweden do not fit the picture you describe at all.
Kittos
Only-NeverInSweden.blogspot.com
May I suggest that if you were to learn about these members and also examine what is taught in many public schools in the US you might find that the American Right are as ill informed as the muslims to whom you refer.
I appreciate that you speak from first hand knowledge about Pakistan and your observations on Pakistan are useful. Most of the mostly young muslims I know here in Sweden do not fit the picture you describe at all.
Kittos
Only-NeverInSweden.blogspot.com
1
Crime and murder in Muslim majority countries is rare because of the strict and swift Sharia laws. The trial of Boston bombing accused is yet to begin and when it begins the costs to the tax payers are bound to be high during the trial and even after the conviction. Such a case would have been settled in a week under the Sharia law.
1
Don't understand what you're trying to say. Are you read to live under Sharia law cause it's cheaper?
1
Matt: 10:34 has many interpretations. The nub is: A sword divides. Truth divides.
1
Does any other religion have terrorists who attack "infidels" regularly, shouting the phrase "Allahu ackbar" ?
Does any other religion have organized groups causing and urging international terrorism?
Does any other religion have organized groups causing and urging international terrorism?
216
The KKK, the Army of God, the Anti-balaka and I could go on and on. Please read this article and open your eyes.
http://www.loonwatch.com/2010/01/not-all-terrorists-are-muslims/
Thank you, from your muslim friend in Canada
http://www.loonwatch.com/2010/01/not-all-terrorists-are-muslims/
Thank you, from your muslim friend in Canada
2
Oh, and what about the crusades and the Spanish Conquistadores all bringing the cross with them?
1
JDL for starters and then most of the illegal settlers, who claim that 5000 years ago God gave us the Land it is ours. You do know that thousands of Palestinians have been killed by the IDF in the name of the Jewish democratic State of Israel?
We are children behaving as children. We say our God is ONE God and then practice exclusion and separation from others whose God also says it is ONE God, but looks a bit different or uses different words. Perhaps this clash of religious faiths is but part of our path toward true ONENESS, as we slowly awake from the dream of separation, scarcity and lack, and look anew at each other. We must now raise our conscious awareness. We create our own reality in every moment. What are we creating? At its base, very attack is a call for love. Instead of responding with fear or reprisal, we need to reach out, seeking the common spirit that unites us all. WE ARE ALL CHARLIE. NO EXCEPTIONS.
2
I have often wondered why, despite the obvious risks, more Imams don't come out and clearly state that violence and murder are not part of their true faith, and those that follow that path are subverting that faith.
That would seem to be the responsibility of an Imam.
What am I missing?
That would seem to be the responsibility of an Imam.
What am I missing?
304
I've read the Koran. In places, it says to love others. In other places, it says to conquer or kill non-Muslims. Perhaps imams don't speak out because the murdering terrorists are doing what the Koran tells them to do, and the imams know it.
7
"This is an act of war in the middle of Paris. The French Muslim community has condemned the attack." Dalil Boubakeur, rector of the Great Mosque of Paris, announced on behalf of French Muslims, “I want to denounce the horror and the unspeakable and show our compassion. We condemn what just [happened] in the name of all Muslims. This is an act of war in the middle of Paris.“ The media doesn't give much coverage to the moderate voices.
2
Claude of Georgia, you are very perceptive.
Where is the reply from Muslims, why are they not protesting that their religion is being misused by radical extremists?
The Imam are part of the problem. Because the religion, unlike Roman Catholicism is not centralized, it is very prone to cult personalities and places and emphasis on charisma.
For example if a priest saids something likely killing infidels, they would be defrocked right away. Imams don't have that pressure. As a matter of fact, Imams will give minimal lip service to peace, but none of them are going to stick out their necks and lead a protest movement at risk of loosing followers to a competing mosque. An analogy is like Fox News condemning waterboarding and torture.
Where is the reply from Muslims, why are they not protesting that their religion is being misused by radical extremists?
The Imam are part of the problem. Because the religion, unlike Roman Catholicism is not centralized, it is very prone to cult personalities and places and emphasis on charisma.
For example if a priest saids something likely killing infidels, they would be defrocked right away. Imams don't have that pressure. As a matter of fact, Imams will give minimal lip service to peace, but none of them are going to stick out their necks and lead a protest movement at risk of loosing followers to a competing mosque. An analogy is like Fox News condemning waterboarding and torture.
It seems that once you suspend logical thinking or overrule yThe skepticism in your own brain, and believe in the superior beings and the accompanying contradicitive texts, any leap becomes possible. The solution is an honest assessment by society, a real critical look at all religions.
30
A religion is nothing more nor less than the way it's interpreted by its followers. Obviously Islam itself is not a problem. Enough Quran scholars have pointed that out. But, it's in serious need of reinterpretation, and first and foremost, what needs to go is the idea that a person can and should be killed for their beliefs. But if anyone has read Jenny Nordberg's excellent book, The Underground Girls of Kabul, one big problem is the lack of education in parts of the Muslim world. She notes that many imams in Afghanistan are illiterate. They call themselves scholars of Islam yet they've never read the Quran. They make up whatever self-serving stuff they want and people will believe them because they can't read either.
Of course that's not the case in Paris, but I wonder if these two men who carried out the attack have read the Quran or thought much about their faith at all. It seems they latched on to a violent ideology which encourages them to express their anger and frustration in the worst possible way and then justify it on religious grounds. But what do we expect? The leaders of Isis and Al Quaeda may display certain outward trappings of piety (eg., pray 5x a day), but they can't have thought much on the true meaning of their religion and their relationship to God, and they're certainly not encouraging their members to do so either. Someone needs to point out to them they are the infidels and blasphemers. They are the greatest insults to their religion.
Of course that's not the case in Paris, but I wonder if these two men who carried out the attack have read the Quran or thought much about their faith at all. It seems they latched on to a violent ideology which encourages them to express their anger and frustration in the worst possible way and then justify it on religious grounds. But what do we expect? The leaders of Isis and Al Quaeda may display certain outward trappings of piety (eg., pray 5x a day), but they can't have thought much on the true meaning of their religion and their relationship to God, and they're certainly not encouraging their members to do so either. Someone needs to point out to them they are the infidels and blasphemers. They are the greatest insults to their religion.
97
One could ask the same questions about the Christian faith. One could ask whether any of the right wing nut jobs who profess to be Christians have ever read the last several chapters of Mathew. Chapter 22 through 24. Chapter 22 ad 23 deals with Jesus's unhappiness with the scribes and the Pharisees, the "woe verses" and then we get to chapter 24 where we have the judgment verses "when did you see me hungry and feed me", etc.
As I see it there are many forms of violence: those that are the active form of violence and those that are slow, life long violent attack on the spirit and the physical aspects of the human. Health care is just one example. Personally, I think I would rather be shot, than live a life of extreme poverty and then be told it is my fault that I can't find a job and punished for it.
Just maybe that is a part of what is going on with the radical Muslims. No jobs, no food, but a promise of seven virgins if they are martyrs.
So maybe American pastors and priests should reread their Bibles and take a lesson from Pope Francis.
As I see it there are many forms of violence: those that are the active form of violence and those that are slow, life long violent attack on the spirit and the physical aspects of the human. Health care is just one example. Personally, I think I would rather be shot, than live a life of extreme poverty and then be told it is my fault that I can't find a job and punished for it.
Just maybe that is a part of what is going on with the radical Muslims. No jobs, no food, but a promise of seven virgins if they are martyrs.
So maybe American pastors and priests should reread their Bibles and take a lesson from Pope Francis.
2
Sorry, whether Islam itself is a problem or not, is a question that cannot be resolved by Imams. Any more than a fish can resolve whether living in water is a good thing. What is a problem or not is reflected in the results. The results are clear; until better results emerge, Islam is the problem.
Kalidan
Kalidan
4
"The leaders of Isis and Al Quaeda may display certain outward trappings of piety (eg., pray 5x a day), but they can't have thought much on the true meaning of their religion and their relationship to God, and they're certainly not encouraging their members to do so either."
I think there is a lot of misunderstanding here, and actually I think the leaders of these groups have thought a lot about the meaning of their religion, even if we don't like their conclusions. I also don't think its all that obvious that Islam itself is not a problem.
I think there is a lot of misunderstanding here, and actually I think the leaders of these groups have thought a lot about the meaning of their religion, even if we don't like their conclusions. I also don't think its all that obvious that Islam itself is not a problem.
1
While we have people who, for whatever reason, subscribe to religious beliefs then we will have the kind of behavior outlined in the opening paragraph of this article. And no, I am not saying, or even suggesting that if religious belief could be eliminated then so too would all atrocious behavior. What I am saying is that if religious belief could be eliminated then we would have removed a significant contributor to the world's troubles.
I am heartily sick and tired of being told by religious believers that, "Oh yes, if only those committing these crimes would follow what was written in the Qur'an or the Bible, etc. then we would have no problem." The implication is that those telling me these things are the "Real McCoy" when it comes to religious beliefs and the miscreants are just misguided. No doubt if I spoke with the likes of the IS fighters then they would tell me much the same thing.
My feeling is that the best antidote to the disease that is violent religious behavior, is a good education and the prospect of at least a reasonable job. Religious believers who can achieve these things are far less likely to be a menace to society. Ignorance, superstition and poverty are a potent and dangerous combination. Leaders with malevolent and nefarious intent have fostered this sort of thing for millennia.
However, of more importance in the immediate future, is for us all to re-read some of author Aayan Hirsi Ali's warnings to the west about Islam.
I am heartily sick and tired of being told by religious believers that, "Oh yes, if only those committing these crimes would follow what was written in the Qur'an or the Bible, etc. then we would have no problem." The implication is that those telling me these things are the "Real McCoy" when it comes to religious beliefs and the miscreants are just misguided. No doubt if I spoke with the likes of the IS fighters then they would tell me much the same thing.
My feeling is that the best antidote to the disease that is violent religious behavior, is a good education and the prospect of at least a reasonable job. Religious believers who can achieve these things are far less likely to be a menace to society. Ignorance, superstition and poverty are a potent and dangerous combination. Leaders with malevolent and nefarious intent have fostered this sort of thing for millennia.
However, of more importance in the immediate future, is for us all to re-read some of author Aayan Hirsi Ali's warnings to the west about Islam.
52
Rigorous study of actual human history shows that war is invariably about the acquisition of resources, wealth or power. Leaders may use particular rhetoric to try and inspire supporters, but that's just to dress the whole thing up and make it appear more palatable.
Only 7 percent of conflicts have religion as a partial or tangential cause (there's an encyclopaedia of humanity's wars, so anyone can look it up) and hardly any that would not have occurred if religion did not exist.
War or conflict is always about some individual or group seeking some material advantage. Blaming religion is to look at the curtain rather than the wizard
Only 7 percent of conflicts have religion as a partial or tangential cause (there's an encyclopaedia of humanity's wars, so anyone can look it up) and hardly any that would not have occurred if religion did not exist.
War or conflict is always about some individual or group seeking some material advantage. Blaming religion is to look at the curtain rather than the wizard
Poverty, joblessness, and lack of education are the cause of Muslim terrorism? Really? No, it is the Quran and teaching of imams and Muslim leaders.
Muslims, 'Christians', and atheists from all walks of life have exhibited violent behavior. A true Muslim is commanded to conquer and murder, a true Christian is commanded to not murder, and an atheist--well, I don't know. I guess an atheist makes and adopts his/her own rules. What many don't understand is that common sense and subjective. Common sense to you is not common sense to someone with a completely different sense of values. You might not like it, but, that is reality. Until we accept that, nothing will change. You can talk, meet, and discuss ad nauseam, but some people will never change. So, you have to choose whether to let them kill you and your loved ones, submit, or wipe them out. Refusing to accept reality is a recipe for disaster.
Muslims, 'Christians', and atheists from all walks of life have exhibited violent behavior. A true Muslim is commanded to conquer and murder, a true Christian is commanded to not murder, and an atheist--well, I don't know. I guess an atheist makes and adopts his/her own rules. What many don't understand is that common sense and subjective. Common sense to you is not common sense to someone with a completely different sense of values. You might not like it, but, that is reality. Until we accept that, nothing will change. You can talk, meet, and discuss ad nauseam, but some people will never change. So, you have to choose whether to let them kill you and your loved ones, submit, or wipe them out. Refusing to accept reality is a recipe for disaster.
2
People all over the third world have been the victims of their rulers, including the democratic ones. But their resentment has not taken the shape of religious radicalism everywhere?
15
Thank you for taking the Gospel citation out of context to make an erroneous point. The text continues "For I am come to set man at variance against his father...."
Yes, the sword is a symbolic trop for a gospel which divides his community into believers and unbelievers, not a weapon.
But that should not stop you in your quest for politically correct excuse of Muslim violence.
Yes, the sword is a symbolic trop for a gospel which divides his community into believers and unbelievers, not a weapon.
But that should not stop you in your quest for politically correct excuse of Muslim violence.
9
Thank you for completing the text. Sadly, I have had so-called Christians cite the same out of context line when I have protested to them that Christ's message was one of peace.
1
So what this article says is that as a community, the Muslim community will never fix this issue. Some blame their country of origin, some say it's just not true "we are not violent" and others on a couple bad apples... It's never Islam itself. Having read parts of the Koran and the bible, what I can see is that the Koran is far easier to interpret in different ways. The severity of the versus can be taken literally or figuratively in many more cases than the bible. One thing the article fails to discuss is the different sects of the Muslim religion. Those from Saudi or "the kingdom.." are the most likely to interpret in the most severe and radical way. I believe they referred to the Wahhabism or orthodox version of Islam.
Unfortunately I don't see any increases in tolerance from the western world, which will only drive more of a wedge between the west and radicalized Muslims. Even after the Paris shootings, the response from the Muslim world was just weak and half hearted, so sensitive not to offend. This is a trend we see time and time again. As one who has the vivid image of a plane flying over his head, into the World Trade Center permanently etched in his mind, and watching people throwing themselves from the top of the burning tower, I am ready for a more punitive response to the Muslim community.
Unfortunately I don't see any increases in tolerance from the western world, which will only drive more of a wedge between the west and radicalized Muslims. Even after the Paris shootings, the response from the Muslim world was just weak and half hearted, so sensitive not to offend. This is a trend we see time and time again. As one who has the vivid image of a plane flying over his head, into the World Trade Center permanently etched in his mind, and watching people throwing themselves from the top of the burning tower, I am ready for a more punitive response to the Muslim community.
70
A "more punitive response to the Muslim community" will only result in more extremism. It's not by oppressing a people that we can get them to stand with us against extremist elements among them.
21
If you read the Torah in Hebrew, it has multiple possible interpretations. Biblical Hebrew is a very subtle and, at times, ambiguous language. There are plenty of examples in the Torah where conquest and violence is advocated. (Happily, the rabbis of the Talmud later interpreted these texts to largely nullify the violent passages. It is Talmudic Judaism that we Jews follow today.)
Nonetheless, whatever the Qur'an says in theory, at the moment Muslims have a problem with terrorism. It is the burden of moderate Muslims to somehow confront this issue. (I don't mean to let people of other religions off the hook; all the ones I know have their own forms of violence.)
Nonetheless, whatever the Qur'an says in theory, at the moment Muslims have a problem with terrorism. It is the burden of moderate Muslims to somehow confront this issue. (I don't mean to let people of other religions off the hook; all the ones I know have their own forms of violence.)
2
It must be clear to Muslims around the world that the west, China, Japan, South America all perceive Muslims to be responsible for the murders in France, for ISIS, for 9/11.
Still extremist madrassas are funded and produce young men whose beliefs include murder of those who offend them, the Koran, the Prophet. Are these schools really healthy? Are such beliefs healthy? Can beliefs like these become a part of the world society?
Still extremist madrassas are funded and produce young men whose beliefs include murder of those who offend them, the Koran, the Prophet. Are these schools really healthy? Are such beliefs healthy? Can beliefs like these become a part of the world society?
59
Islam is not a violent religion.It is most unfortunate that some hard-core fundamentalists belonging to Islam have perpetuated a culture of violence on a global scale.These people are inflicting maximum damage to Islam.That the islamist progressive and moderate thinkers remain silent to expose ,condemn and ridicule the fundamentalists resurgence.Progressives are afraid of their own lives being branded as blasphamous and then face direct death at the hand of fundamentalists.
In every society the intellectual class is the most influential class,if not the governing class. But in the Muslim society the intellectual class carries no weight.It is half illiterate,Koranic versues crammed Mullahs (anathema to intellectuals) who are the most influential force.Under the influence of Mullah Muslims see not reason.They are blind folded in the name of God.
The progressives in Islam must come forward and tell to their believers what Karl Marx told to excite proletariats to bring about economic revolution,"You have nothing to lose except your chains".Islam calls for renaissance- spreading free thinking and freedom from obscruantism.
The barbaric brutal attack on French satire'Charlie Hebdo' killing 10 finest journalists is an attack on the French core value of freedom of speech or liberty of expression .France is a secular Republic.The two attackers were born and brought up in France but failed to imbibe spirit of the Republic and surrendered to the spirit of false Islamic values-killing.
In every society the intellectual class is the most influential class,if not the governing class. But in the Muslim society the intellectual class carries no weight.It is half illiterate,Koranic versues crammed Mullahs (anathema to intellectuals) who are the most influential force.Under the influence of Mullah Muslims see not reason.They are blind folded in the name of God.
The progressives in Islam must come forward and tell to their believers what Karl Marx told to excite proletariats to bring about economic revolution,"You have nothing to lose except your chains".Islam calls for renaissance- spreading free thinking and freedom from obscruantism.
The barbaric brutal attack on French satire'Charlie Hebdo' killing 10 finest journalists is an attack on the French core value of freedom of speech or liberty of expression .France is a secular Republic.The two attackers were born and brought up in France but failed to imbibe spirit of the Republic and surrendered to the spirit of false Islamic values-killing.
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Perhaps the best recent survey of current thought on Islam's complex relationship to violence.
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A muslim essayist recently called upon top muslim clerics around the
world to clearly point out certain passages from the Quran that provide
instructions on violently dealing with non-believers as not applicable
for the modern times. This may seem blasphemous but until that
happens there will always be muslim leaders who will find "causes" to
instigate violence in the name of Islam quoting the Quran.
world to clearly point out certain passages from the Quran that provide
instructions on violently dealing with non-believers as not applicable
for the modern times. This may seem blasphemous but until that
happens there will always be muslim leaders who will find "causes" to
instigate violence in the name of Islam quoting the Quran.
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Right--and then the conservative Muslim clerics will declare jihad on them for apostasy. This is a religion that kills people for CARTOONS. How do you think they will react to clerics disowning portions of the Koran?
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Might we find similar outdated justifications in other religious texts, including Christian or Jewish. For some people, that might include the death penalty, violent acts by anti-abortion advocates, or as Pope Francis has pointed out, conflating the "free market" with Godliness to an extreme, and failing to address "the least of us" who face poverty and its consequences in health, like starvation.
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Might we find similar outdated justifications in other religious texts, including Christian or Jewish. For some people, that might include the death penalty, violent acts by anti-abortion advocates, or as Pope Francis has pointed out, conflating the "free market" with Godliness to an extreme, and failing to address "the least of us" who face poverty and its consequences in health, like starvation.
Surely something is missing in this discussion. Whilst we have individuals or groups, identifying themselves as Islamic, committing acts of unspeakable terror, states consisting of Muslim people are less violent towards the rest of the world than are the USA and the UK. One only needs to compare the violence inflicted by the USA since WWII on considerable portions of the rest of the world with that of any Muslim state to realise that we are not so different. The USA terrorises many Muslim communities on a daily basis with its drones hovering over those communities, never knowing when they will fall. (read, for example, the Thistle and the Drone by Akbar Ahmed). The killing in Paris was horrendous, but is the gratuitous murder by the USA of people in Yemen, Waziristan, Afghanistan etc etc, any less horrendous? And what about the torture, kidnapping, illegal locking up ad infinitum without trial? The difference is that we, as westerners, know and love Paris. The slaughter at Charlie Hebdo attacks something very close to us. We do not receive graphic details of the USA - inflicted killings, we do not know the affected communities, we are mostly unlikely ever to visit those areas and so it is not very real to us. What I am arguing for is more honesty in this very important discussion. Clearly the Muslim world must investigate the violence perpetrated by the followers of Islam. But it would be quite dishonest for the West to pretend that violence is not also a Western problem.
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right, deflect it to "the West does this and that"... this is known as "being in denial"... even alcoholics know they won't solve their problem until they take responsibility for it
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It is exactly this type of justification and rhetoric that promotes the problem. There seems to be always a need to deflect blame back to the USA. Shameful.
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Your points recall a debate I witnessed in 1990 in Saudi Arabia on the eve of the Gulf War, between our Pakistani manager (who supported U.S. intervention) and one of our Yemeni salesmen, (who didn't). Both of them were very devout, hard line fundamentalists (and alternatively served as imams on Friday in the company prayer room), but the Yemeni agreed with you, that it is not permissible for a good Muslim to enlist the help of a good non-Muslim (of the Book) to fight a bad Muslim.
Under that logic, it would be allowed for Saddam & Gadaffi, Islamic State, Al-Qaeda, the Taliban, etc. to slaughter good Muslims at will, while we stood by, ignoring their cries for help.
Under that logic, it would be allowed for Saddam & Gadaffi, Islamic State, Al-Qaeda, the Taliban, etc. to slaughter good Muslims at will, while we stood by, ignoring their cries for help.
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If a Holy Book is supposed to be the inspired word of a God, and if that God were both omniscient and benevolent, then that God should have taken more care in the words he allowed His prophets to write down as eternal commandments. He should have said: "I know I said this before in no uncertain terms, but really, I mean it this time, don't kill people. And while you're at it, try cultivating a sense of humor about yourself".
But you have to go with where the evidence leads. If the Holy Books really are so vague and conflicted about who you can or cannot kill. If all kinds of sociopaths can easily find the justification in them to go on murderous rampages. If even the religious leaders are silent about whether the Book authorizes the murder of cartoonists and satirists, then maybe the intent of the God of that Book is really is to sow chaos, discord, and mayhem among the people of the world. Or maybe the Book is just a made up thing by some people that want to control other people.
Either way, the evidence seems to point towards it being better not to follow arbitrary, vague, and/or conflicted Holy Books.
But you have to go with where the evidence leads. If the Holy Books really are so vague and conflicted about who you can or cannot kill. If all kinds of sociopaths can easily find the justification in them to go on murderous rampages. If even the religious leaders are silent about whether the Book authorizes the murder of cartoonists and satirists, then maybe the intent of the God of that Book is really is to sow chaos, discord, and mayhem among the people of the world. Or maybe the Book is just a made up thing by some people that want to control other people.
Either way, the evidence seems to point towards it being better not to follow arbitrary, vague, and/or conflicted Holy Books.
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"Or maybe the Book is just a made up thing by some people that want to control other people."
Bravo. And there you said it in a Nutshell - it about CONTROL. Nothing more.
Bravo. And there you said it in a Nutshell - it about CONTROL. Nothing more.
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With all religions there is an element of "control" and the major religions are all patriarch as well. Books made by men, for men at the expense of women.
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Is Islam inherently violent. The founder of the website Free Saudi Liberals was sentenced to 1,000 lashes. Not much wiggle room for discussion in fundamentalist Islamic Saudi Arabia.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/cheats/2015/01/08/saudi-activist-sentenced-...
http://www.thedailybeast.com/cheats/2015/01/08/saudi-activist-sentenced-...
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@ Joshua Schwartz in Israel: Yes, and many conservative Christian parents will whip their children ("spare the rod and spoil the child"). Does that make Christianity "inherently violent"? I think rather that it is the interpretation of the religion rather than the religion itself.
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I see no distinction between their religion and their interpretation of their religion.
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Anne-Marie:
Christian parents do this at their own direction - and Christians will always note that the Bible is up for various interpretations. We do not believe it is directly the word God. On the other hand, Saudi doles out sharia punishment because it is the law of the land. Big, big, big difference. The Koran is the word of God. Period, no arguments there.
Christian parents do this at their own direction - and Christians will always note that the Bible is up for various interpretations. We do not believe it is directly the word God. On the other hand, Saudi doles out sharia punishment because it is the law of the land. Big, big, big difference. The Koran is the word of God. Period, no arguments there.
3
Was the intensity of reaction similar when children were massacred in Peshawar? How many human rights groups and NGOs championing the cause of children rushed for the psychological healing of the children/ survivors' families?
Paris killing is however very tragic and should be condemned to the core but demonizing a religion based on this incident puts a question mark on 'western' intellect!!!!
Paris killing is however very tragic and should be condemned to the core but demonizing a religion based on this incident puts a question mark on 'western' intellect!!!!
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Not only human rights groups and other NGOs should draw attention to these horrors. The muslem population at large should protest this savagery. They all claim Islam is a religion of love and peace, etc... Then prove it, and demonstrate loudly about beheadings etc.... I don't seem to hear them.
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Dear Conscious,
Your argument sounds logical. But NOBODY can go into Pakistan to rescue children from the clutches of Taliban or to uphold human rights. If anybody does, he or she will be killed at once. ISI is a terrorist organization all but in name. Even the Pak military is not under civilian control. Sadly, as I opined in 1968, implosion of Islam has begun.
Your argument sounds logical. But NOBODY can go into Pakistan to rescue children from the clutches of Taliban or to uphold human rights. If anybody does, he or she will be killed at once. ISI is a terrorist organization all but in name. Even the Pak military is not under civilian control. Sadly, as I opined in 1968, implosion of Islam has begun.
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Not by this incident alone but by the thousands perpetrated by members of this sect since WW1. Can the World Trade Center attack be held in less contempt by Americans than the latest outrage in Paris? The almost daily suicide bomber attacks? The shooting of a girl because she goes to school and is an advocate for girl's education? The massacre of the Armenians by the Turks? Of the three Abrahamic faiths only Islam has claimed the right to convert the world by any means necessary including violence. Did Charles Martel chase from Europe a peaceful people or an occupying force that ruled through prejudice and violence with special laws that discriminated against any who were not of the "religion of peace"? The one that murders fellow members because they can't agree on who is the successor to The Prophet? Is Abraham's prophecy of Ishmael true? That his hand would be at everyone's throat? It sure looks like it.
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